1 24 42 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c3a049d0e33c849ec1c1a34e316ea311.pdf 83c691670db4a70b95058e576585d971 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 C. Bennett Ainsworth S. P. Bennett Fuel and Ice Company Interviewed on October 1, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #24 (31:59) Biographical Information Calvin Bennett Ainsworth was born 3 December 1890 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Calvin Bennett Ainsworth married Agnes M. Warnick on 20 March 1922. He was married to Emily L. Hine about 1926. He died 6 October 1974 leaving a widow, Florence J. He is buried at Oak Hill Cemetery in Grand Rapids. C. Bennett was the son of Arthur Sardius Ainsworth and Ella Elizabeth Innes who were married 18 August 1887 in Grand Rapids. Arthur was born about July 1862 in Rome, Henry County, Iowa the son of Calvin and Harriet (Fairchild) Ainsworth. He died in Grand Rapids in January 1950. The mother, Ella Innes was born 18 March 1861 in Pueblo, Colorado, the daughter of William and Elizabeth (Brennan) Innes. Ella died in Grand Rapids 11 April 1916. As his second wife, Arthur married Amye Firth on 5 October 1918. Amye died in Grand Rapids in 1940. Interments in Oak Hill Cemetery in Grand Rapids. ___________ Interviewer: Were you born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Ainsworth: Yes, yes I was. I was born in Grand Rapids. I don‟t remember the house because I was too young, moved away from there as a small boy or as an infant probably. It was on Washington and we moved away from there to James Street, two fifty-four James. And that is where I grew up-my early, early days of my life. In fact I… after I left college, my family moved to five forty-nine South College, and we lived there and sold that house to the Park Congregational Church. It‟s kind of unusual because I had another house on Madison. I sold that to the church-the colored church and Mayor Parks lives there now. He‟s a minister of this church and also the mayor of the city-a very nice house. Well, then I moved out here three years ago and been living here ever since. I can remember many of the old things about the city. I can remember Cherry Street, which I was kind of close to on James, being paved with blocks-not blocks- they‟re some circle pieces of wood made from a tree. They‟re about six inches deep and maybe a foot in diameter or so, depending on the tree that was cut. This was packed in with gravel, as I remember, and then… and then covered with tar. And that was a street. And Lower Monroe was a… had the same sort of a pavement and, I don‟t know, maybe other streets were paved that way but I can remember those. And when it… when they wanted to do away with the street and put asphalt or cement in, they tore it up and anybody who �2 wanted any of these blocks of wood would get them free and they made good firewood because they were certainly well-seasoned and they had some kind of oil or tar in them. Interviewer: When was, when was that street torn up? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, I don‟t know but I would guess, let‟s see I can only guess from my age, probably I was twelve or thirteen and that would make it nineteen hundred and two or three-around in there. Interviewer: What kind of a street did they put down after that? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, I‟m not sure. I think it was probably brick or tar some kind of… it was an improvement on the wood street. Although a street made of wood like that was awfully nice for the horses, and they had a lot of horses in those days. Milk trucks and people were going around in, in vehicles hauled by horses and it‟s a lot better for them than the paved street. Interviewer: Why, why is that? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, on account of their hoofs. I was always taught that you shouldn‟t run a horse on a hard paved street if you could avoid it. It‟s hard on the shoes and on their legs. It‟s so hard whereas the wooden pavement would take up some of the shock and it‟d be a lot better. I also remember about the lighting system in Grand Rapids in … I think that would be about the same period. We had steel towers and there were quite… oh, I would say they were t- at the base anyway, they were probably twelve, fifteen feet in diameter and they rose to maybe, oh I‟m just guessing but I would say, four to five hundred feet. And they had several lights up there that were made with carbon- carbon sticks they looked like. And they‟d have to replace these every once in a while and they would throw them down to the ground below and we boys would pick them up and use them in place of crayons-except they made a black mark instead of a white mark. But they tore that… I don‟t know when they tore those down and replaced them but, at that time, it was a good lighting system although I don‟t think it ever was quite as good as they claimed it would be. You would be able to read a newspaper anywhere in the citythe city then being probably one-fifth the size it is now. I remember at one time there was a flock of geese that came either going north or south I don‟t know which, but there was a fog and they flew into this…one of these towers and I think it was on the corner of Paris and Logan. I‟m not sure of that, but anyway, the… it killed several of the geese and they were dead at the bottom of the tower and they were there for the grabs-anybody that wanted them could have them. I don‟t know, maybe, that‟s about all I can think of. Interviewer: These towers… were the towers kind of ringing the city or… Mr. Ainsworth: Well, they were spaced in logical places so that they would distribute the light throughout pretty well. But I don‟t think it was nearly as good a system as it is now and they claimed a lot more than they claim now. But we had a lot of trees and these lights were way up and the trees would shadow them and make dark places so I‟m sure �3 they would have left them up until now if they were practical. But they‟re gone and, of course, they have a different system of… we don‟t have any carbon lights, maybe you can remember those. They kind of fizz once in a while. They‟d make quite a loud singing sound. There was a spark going between the carbons is what it was-that made that noise. Interviewer: Well, when you were growing up on James Street, was that on the outskirts of the city? Mr. Ainsworth: No, but Eastern Avenue was pretty well on the outskirts. I suppose it was named Eastern because it was the east, more or less, the eastern limits of the city. And I remember just beyond there on Wealthy, they used to have a big open space there. That would be from Eastern east of there and well east there-pretty close to Diamond. Where Diamond is now was all open and they use to have the circus that came to town would put up tents there. There was plenty of room for them. It was… it was all open territory. Interviewer: Would the shows be there? Mr. Ainsworth: Yeah, the shows-they put the big tent there and the show would be there. Interviewer: How would, how would people get out to the circus if it was on the outskirts of town? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, they had streetcars, I suppose. I know… I know they did because they had streetcars running out to Reeds Lake. As a boy, I use to go out to Reeds Lake in the summer and my mother would put up a sandwich or two and some milk and then we‟d go out to Rose‟s swimming beach and take our lunch and we‟d stay in the water all day long-swim all morning and afternoon. The water was clean and clear. And then in the winter, we use to do the same thing only we‟d take our skates out and they cleared a space out there and we were in…I can‟t tell you the name of it, but it was a big open saloon, that‟s what it was and a couple of stoves in there, these pot-bellied stoves and we‟d get cold and come in there and we‟d…I think we had our lunch in there. They let us have our lunch there. I can‟t remember much about it being a bar but I‟m pretty sure that was what it was. And we‟d put up our… put our feet up against this iron stove with our skates on, you know, and it would thaw them out and get warm then go back out and skate. It was quite a trek out there for us, either bicycle or streetcar. So you wouldn‟t go out there for just a little while, you go out there for the whole day-the entire day. I remember shooting squirrels right down by Fisk Lake and around in there. It was beginning to be a little inhabited there and this-right here where I am used to be a track here. Mr. Bonnell, as I recall, had some horses, and he had a track which he would run „em around here. Jefferson Avenue was-in the winter- was a place I think they blocked it off and some of the rich people with horses and sleighs would have races down there. They raced down Jefferson Avenue. Interviewer: Did you ever go down to see them? �4 Mr. Ainsworth: I don‟t think I did. I remember hearing about it, but I wasn‟t particularly interested. But on Washington Street they used to block that off for us kids and we‟d start at Madison with bobsleds and slide down there and then walk back up. We use to do that a lot. I can‟t remember those horse races at all, seeing one. I can remember hearin‟ „em, talking about them though. I‟m sure they had them. Interviewer: Did you go to school in Grand Rapids? Mr. Ainsworth: Yes, I graduated from Central High School in nineteen-ten. That was the last year of the old high school. Then there was the new one which I guess is the one standing now-was built in, I think the class of eleven [1911] got into that school. I was the last one there and… I graduated in nineteen-ten and remember hearing I was the last class in the school. Interviewer: Did everybody in those days graduate from Central? Mr. Ainsworth: I think they did. I don‟t think we had another high school. Interviewer: Another four year school? Mr. Ainsworth: No, I don‟t believe we did. Of course, you got how many now-three, four…? Interviewer: Well, there‟s Creston, Union, Central, Ottawa Hills-I guess they‟ve got four, plus the Catholic High School. Mr. Ainsworth: Well, I guess there weren‟t a lot of kids never went to high school, you know, in those days. I don‟t suppose over half of them went. And so, of course, the city was so much smaller so that you didn‟t need as many. Interviewer: Who were the kids that went onto high school and who were the ones that didn‟t? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, some of them had to go to work and they didn‟t. Some of „em just weren‟t interested. There wasn‟t the importance put on an education in those days as it is today. So… and the world wasn‟t as sophisticated. I mean you… you have to have an education to run these machines now and the computers and everything. Most every kind of work there is takes a good deal of education. In those days, we didn‟t have those and the work that was open for you didn‟t require it so you just didn‟t spend the time and money on it. I went over to the University of Michigan and it seemed to me there were nine thousand there then and they thought that was a big, big school. My granddaughter is going over here to Central Michigan at Mt. Pleasant, yeah, Mt. Pleasant. And I think she said there were something like twelve, fourteen thousand, and they, they consider that a small school now. I never, I really never heard if it until she went there. And yet that‟s �5 much bigger than the University of Michigan was in those days. And the University of Michigan was-and is today-well recognized as a big and good college. Interviewer: What… what kind of business were you in in Grand Rapids? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, I was in the coal business-the Bennett Fuel Company. My father worked there first and got to own the company, and then I took it over when I came back from college and I ran it until sixteen years ago when I retired. It‟s about that time gas kept came in and there‟s very little coal sold in the city now, very little. Even the industries are not buying it because of the smoke that they‟re creating. So, it‟s been hit very hard but my son is running the company as best he can and he‟s gone into oil… selling oil along with coal for heating and other purposes. So he‟s struggling along with it still in the city. It‟s over-it‟s about ninety-eight years old now. It‟s almost a hundred years old-the company is. And we had an interesting thing about that. We were on the corner of Fulton and Ottawa. I think we were there for eighty-eight years and the property was owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad. We rented it from them and we rented it for eighty-eight years and all we had was month-to-month lease. The railroads are a little different than other people. If you ship over their lines, they won‟t sell to you and they give you cheap rent. They won‟t sell to you because they want to hold you on their… they want to have something over your head. It‟s to make you stay there and ship over their road. And on the other hand, they give you very, very reasonable rent. In fact, they‟d give it to you for nothing if they could but the Interstate Commerce Commission won‟t let them do that. They have to charge at least, as I understand it, six percent the valuation, assessed valuation of the property. But that‟s all they charged. Well, I think that‟s all they charged us. Now, now that the railroads are having a hard time, maybe, they‟re… they‟ll get into the more equitable rent. Interviewer: Well, if people were burning… would that be the predominant fuel in homes-coal? Mr. Ainsworth: Yes, it was up to about nineteen forty, I‟d say. nineteen forty then gas started coming in, oil, there was, some oil in… there was some gas but not anything like what it is now. Though I would say an eighty percent or eighty-five percent of the heat was generated from coal at that time. And there were over a hundred coal dealers in this city at one time-at least a hundred licenses taken out. Now there is just our own, that‟s the only one left. And we‟re… we just can‟t, I don‟t know how he can live off what he gets there. There‟s just nobody‟s burning coal. I don‟t burn it myself …and fewer every year. But he‟s got little other outlets that, like oil, trying to go into the fertilizing business, too. Doing a little of that he can, that goes a very little investment necessary if you have oil trucks, you can just clean „m out, put the water and the chemical in there and then you got your own pump, your spray and the whole thing so all throughout the country quite a few coal yards have gone into fertilizing by liquid spraying. Interviewer: Well, if most of the homes were burning coal, was there… was there much smog or smoke in the city? �6 Mr. Ainsworth: Yes, there was, there was no complaint about it but there was at times. I know that in the winter you get a nice clean fall of snow and all, everything would be just as white and pure and clean as it could be in the morning maybe, and then by the next morning you‟d see these globs of soot around. And the snow would get real dirty mostly from… of course, it gets dirty now but it‟s largely from coal. It seems to me as though the air should be much cleaner now than it used to be due to the fact that there‟s no coal used but, of course, there weren‟t very many automobiles in those days and they say they‟re responsible for 60% of the pollution-air pollution. So maybe we got a worse victim in the car than it was in coal. I don‟t think coal will ever come back as a home heating. Interviewer: Well what, what, how would these homes that were heated on coal, what was the operation involved in keeping your house warm. Mr. Ainsworth: Well, at first it was really just hand fired. You just didn‟t… you never had a fire furnace with coal? You didn‟t? Interviewer: Well, I did at my parents‟ cottage at one time. But… Mr. Ainsworth: Well, it‟s merely shovel in the coal usually in the morning and set your drafts and you‟d get over-runs and under-runs and, it was good, good and cold you couldn‟t keep the house at an even temperature-or it was very difficult to. Then they had the… they would get an automatic thermostat for the furnace and it was much better than without one. It would open and close the draft itself. When the temperature went over a certain degree, it would drop the draft so that the fire would die down and when it got cold it would be the reverse. And then… then they introduced the stoker and the stoker is much cleaner burning. It burns fuel much cleaner than the hand fired by means of a screw it pushes the coal in so that the fire is fed from below and as that fresh coal comes in from below, it gets hot and it begins to release its volatile matter as smoke. The smoke has to go through the bed of flames and it gets burned off. So it burned the coal more efficiently and cleanly-but it isn‟t. I hate to say it as a coal man, but it isn‟t as clean as the gas or oil. But, of course, you‟re just practically unconscious of the furnace and then I… just, your house is held at seventy-two degrees with either coal or oil. So you‟re unconscious of it. Interviewer: Well in other words, before they developed the thermostat, it was pretty difficult keeping your house at an even temperature. Mr. Ainsworth: Yeah. You had a little dial up here that you could operate around and it had a chain on it and the chain would close or open the drafts down below. So if it gets cold, well, you walk over to this operator and just turn it one way or the other and it would adjust the drafts instead of having to go down below to do anything. You boys missed a lot of hard work. Interviewer: Well were there, when people were burning coal in their houses, were there any coal strikes? �7 Mr. Ainsworth: Yes, I can remember one but they- the contracts were all written so they expired, I think, on April first. And we did have coal strikes but the season was pretty well along for one thing and we could load up on another thing and I remember one year they had a strike and they had this coal… they loaded cars. Of course, the miner was anxious to get all the money he could so he was trying to put in all the time he could and some-so most of „em were on a tonnage basis so the more tons you got out the more you got paid. And he was trying to build up a nest egg to protect him against the strike. So they were trying to get a lot of coal out in shipping and we‟d load up and they‟d have sometimes… there‟s every miner had maybe a hundred cars loaded with coal and they would… all during April they would ship that to you. And I can‟t remember any time when, oh yes, I did too, was that a strike? There was one time here we were in real bad shape one winter. We…we had the supply turned over to the city. I think that was… that must have been a strike. I remember George Welsh was mayor, I believe, at that time or city commissioner and the city confiscated all the coal there was in the city. I mean they came to your yards and now, “You cannot deliver any coal except on an order from the city.” And then the people had to go to the city hall and declare their need of coal and they‟d get a certificate and they… we‟d come down and deliver them a ton. We did have quite a serious shortage one year, I can remember. Interviewer: Do you remember what year that was? Mr. Ainsworth: No, I can‟t. No, I can‟t. I just have to guess it was the late thirties or in the forties. We did have quite a serious shortage at that time, but I don‟t think anybody froze. I remember greenhouses got preference, hospitals got preference and some institutions that were vital were… got the first chance. There were… there always… when they have a strike, there‟s always a few miners at work-they‟re not unionized so there‟s a trickling of coal that comes out always, even in spite of a strike. There‟s a strike on right now, isn‟t there? I know that their contract expired last night at midnight. Interviewer: Oh, I don‟t know about this. Mr. Ainsworth: I, I didn‟t turn it on there… the television this morning… and so I don‟t know what happened. Interviewer: Was the Grand River used for anything when you were a kid? Mr. Ainsworth: I can‟t remember any of those boats going up and down. I… I can remember seeing pictures of the boats and I think there were some boats there and they docked right down there by Fulton Street, but I can‟t remember very much about them but I‟ve seen pictures. I think maybe most of my memory of that is from pictures rather than from the actual boats although I can remember a very bad flood we had one year. I was only a kid. Gosh, I don‟t know. It was probably nineteen-I‟m guessing again but probably in nineteen-let‟s see, probably nineteen hundred and five or six… around in there. I remember the… in the Pantlind Hotel in the barber shop-in the basement-they, they had water right up to… almost to the ceiling. And they used to have a mark there �8 and then years afterwards they‟d come in and say, well, right up there is where the water was on such and such a date. And the west side was quite badly flooded. There was some water over there. Interviewer: What did… what did happen? Why were there such serious floods then and not now? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, if you don‟t, there was no wall there at that time and it was the year in which we had a lot of snow and it melted all fast. Maybe even today it comes up pretty high. We have walls of protection but if you get a lot of snow and then you get a warm rain with this two or three feet of snow on the ground, it‟s just running off everywhere, just in rivers. All over the country, every tributary is feeding into Grand River and it goes way up and it depends on the condition at the time and at that year. We were not protected as well as we are now and we had a big run-off of snow and water. Interviewer: You said you mentioned that your family had a home down on South College, five forty-nine South College? Mr. Ainsworth: Yes. Interviewer: Did you grow up or did you spend any time… Mr. Ainsworth: Well, I spent a few years there, yes. Most of my time was spent on James Street. Then they moved out to eighteen thirty-nine Lake Drive, but then I was married and I didn‟t live at eighteen thirty-nine Lake Drive. They kept going east as most of us do-east or out in the outskirts. Interviewer: What kind of a neighborhood was James Street, what kind of people lived there? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, there were colored people on the south side of Wealthy and they used to have what we called the Wealthies and the Cherries. I belonged to Cherry Street and most of the Wealthies were the people on the Wealthy side. South of Wealthy were colored… were half, about half-colored and half white at that time. And we used to have snowball fights and so forth. At that time was more or less a pleasant relationship. There was rivalry and then sometimes it resulted in bloody noses and so forth but that was the extent of it. But we… we were… we were divided even then in those days between… and Wealthy Avenue divided us off. And we got our names from the…from the two streets, Wealthy and Cherry. Interviewer: Did they go to the same school? Mr. Ainsworth: Yeah, we went to the same school. It‟s there now, Henry Street School. It runs from Henry over through to James and just a little bit south of Wealthy. It seems to me… I know it‟s there yet, isn‟t it? �9 Interviewer: Henry School? I think so, yeah. Yeah, I‟m sure it‟s there. Did, well… did the… the Negroes and the whites get along alright together? Mr. Ainsworth: In school we did. I can‟t remember anything… any difference or having problems or even giving it a moment‟s thought. We had no serious trouble, we accepted each other as we were and we didn‟t have a football team or baseball team I don‟t think…at least I know I didn‟t-wasn‟t in it. But I had some friends. I can remember two or three of „em down there and later they got to be waiters at the Pantlind Hotel and I used to get pretty good service over at the Pantlind Hotel. The boys would… quite a few of them became waiters in various places. Do you have this thing going? Is anybody going to listen to all this? Interviewer: Oh, yeah. Mr. Ainsworth: Are they? Interviewer: Yeah, I think so. INDEX A I Ainsworth, Arthur Sardius (Father) · 5 Interstate Commerce Commission · 5 B M Bennett Fuel Company · 5 Bonnell, Mr. · 3 Mayor Parks · 1 C P Pantlind Hotel · 8, 9 Central High School · 4 Central Michigan · 4 R F Reeds Lake · 3 Fisk Lake · 3 U G University of Michigan · 4 Grand River · 7, 8 W H Henry Street School · 9 Welsh, George · 7 �10 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8c09728a2dc129661aa8a36f3e572527.mp3 a44bf0baae9471a406f703cd9bd0f7eb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_24Ainsworth Title A name given to the resource Ainsworth, C. Bennett Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ainsworth, C. Bennett Description An account of the resource C. Bennett Ainsworth was born in Grand Rapids on December 3, 1890. He graduated from Central High School in 1910, and attended the University of Michigan. He was the owner of Bennett Fuel Co. He died October 7, 1974. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d66a0a1eda90e49fd1f201283228171.pdf 7b93058f6b8cd3500d962902a9b038ca PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Noyes [Eileen] Avery Interviewed on October 4, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #28 (2:00:00) Biographical Information Mrs. Avery, born Evelyn Leonard on 28 February 1883 in Grand Rapids was the daughter of Frank E. Leonard and Sarah E. “Sadie” Pierce. Evelyn “Eileen” was married on 5 June 1907 in Grand Rapids to Noyes L. Avery. Mrs. Avery died on 4 August 1972 in her home on Plymouth Road in East Grand Rapids. Mr. Avery had preceded her in death on 4 July 1947. They were both interred at Fulton Street Cemetery in Grand Rapids. Eileen‟s father, Frank E. Leonard was born on 8 April 1855 in Grand Rapids. He died on 25 April 1925 and was buried in Fulton Street Cemetery. He married Sarah E. “Sadie” Pierce on 12 October 1881 in Grand Rapids. Sarah was born in July 1859 and died at her home in East Grand Rapids on 7 December 1950. Noyes L. Avery was born in Grand Rapids on 18 October 1881 and was the son of Noyes Frederick Avery and Anna Haley Barstow. Noyes F. Avery was born on 15 January 1855 in Grand Rapids. He died on 19 November 1925. Anna (Barstow) Avery was born on 11 September 1858 in Paris Township (now Kentwood). She died on 1 September 1921 in Grand Rapids. The Averys are buried in Fulton Street Cemetery. ___________ Interviewer: This interview with Mrs. Noyes Avery was conducted October 4, 1971. OK, we can start. Mrs. Avery: I‟m, I‟m a Leonard, and I‟m also an Avery, I‟m probably the only one, that‟s a good Avery. The Averys came here in I would say eighteen forty. And you see Grand Rapids was not started until, I mean Louis Campau didn‟t come until eighteen twenty-six. And no that was only fourteen years when the Averys, and the Barstow family came and that‟s Mrs. Avery‟s, my mother-in-law‟s name. And her name was Anna Barstow. I don‟t know what to say anything here until I know what I‟m going to say…. (Voice in background: “you go on”) And, they came also at that time. Interviewer: Where did, where did the Averys come from? Mrs. Avery: The Averys came from Salem, Massachusetts. Interviewer: Do you know the reason they moved from there to Grand Rapids? �2 Mrs. Avery: I should but, people came here at that time, came to Michigan at that time and I suppose that‟s why the Leonard family came at that time, too. (It was) about eighteen forty, somewhere in there. Well, the Averys and Barstows were very important people here and they were friends of the Lowes, the Blodgetts. (Voice in background: “Let me think of something”) Interviewer: Well, you don‟t remember any particular reason why the, Averys and the Leonards came to Grand Rapids? Were they, what kind of business were they in when they first came? Mrs. Avery: I think Mr. Avery may have been in the real-estate business. Interviewer: I interviewed a fellow the other day, John Cary, and he told me that when his, I believe it was his father or grandfather, first came to Grand Rapids he bought five acres of land down approximately in the area of the old Union Depot was. Mrs. Avery: Yes. Interviewer: And he bought that from the Averys, bought five acres of land from them. Mrs. Avery: Well, now that probably was why Grandfather Avery came here. I never looked that up. This is interesting. And father Avery was born in eighteen fifty-five. And, my father who was Frank Leonard, Frank E. Leonard, was born in eighteen fifty-five. But Heman Leonard, that was his father, came also in about eighteen forty. So that seemed to be the time that they were settling Michigan. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Avery: Then there was a time, you know, when they were settling Ohio. And then, there was a time when they were settling other states. But this is Michigan. Interviewer: Yes. Where did your family live when you were a child? Mrs. .Avery: They lived on Prospect Street. Oh, in those days, you didn‟t have a house when you were married. You boarded with someone. And, Mr. and Mrs. Avery boarded with someone on Bostwick Street. There was a rooming house up there. They boarded there. My father and mother when they were married, boarded with the Charles Leonards on the corner of Oakes and Sheldon, in a house, I think in that, where Ferguson [Hospital] is now. And they lived there quite a long time. That‟s Mrs. Judd‟s grandfather too, that Leonard. She and I are Leonards. Interviewer: What relation, how, how are you and Mrs. Judd related, exactly? Mrs. Avery: Charles Leonard had a son, Harry Leonard, and Harry is the father of Mrs. Judd. My father was younger and he was Frank, Frank E. and I‟m his daughter. Interviewer: So then you‟re …. Mrs. Avery: She and I are cousins. �3 Interviewer: Well, when your parents moved out of the boardinghouse and bought a home of their own, where, where did they live? Mrs. Avery: They lived on Prospect. It‟s the third house from Wealthy, south on Prospect. It‟s still there. There‟s still a vacant lot by it and the house is still there. And, my mother sold it in nineteen twenty-six, that‟s quite a long time ago, too. Well…. Interviewer: What was it like growing up in the neighborhood? Mrs. Avery: Oh, you knew everybody. And everybody would stop for you in the morning to go to school. School was just one block west. It‟s the Lafayette Street School now. It used to be Wealthy Street School. And, they‟d all stop. The thing I remember most about all this is our wonderful games we used to have after dinner. We played hide-n-seek, over the whole block. All the neighbors, there were forty children in our block. That is four sides of the block. That‟s a lot. Interviewer: Yes, it sure is. Mrs. Avery: The Penneys lived there. They were a well known family. The Halls lived there. They were a well known family. Then on our street, the Stevens‟ lived there. They were a well known family, across the street from us. Well, we all went to school together. We didn‟t have any problems at all. Just came home from school and played. Interviewer: When you got to be a little older was there a lot of entertaining? Mrs. Avery: Oh sure, you mean when I was in high school? Oh yes, we used to have parties. Of course they were just kid parties. We‟d go at eight o‟clock; we didn‟t have dinner or anything. We‟d go at eight o‟clock and come home at ten, and our fathers would come after us. Heavens, we never went anywhere with a boy, whoever heard of such a thing. Interviewer: Going out alone with a boy? Mrs. Avery: Yes, there wasn‟t any reason for it except you just didn‟t do it. Your father went after you. Interviewer: Was that before the automobile? Mrs. Avery: That was before the automobile. When the automobile came in, Mr. Avery, my father-in-law had a car. I can‟t remember, I could tell you look it up probably and find out, because I used to be taken out for rides by Noyes Avery. And then he got a White Steamer, later. And we went way down to Gun Lake and we started at six in the morning, and of course that was the steam engine and every time we came to a farm he‟d get out with his rubber pail and fill …. What‟s that you fill? Interviewer: I am not sure, I‟m…. �4 Mrs. Avery: With steam. Interviewer: The boiler? Mrs. Avery: The boiler. And so we didn‟t run out of steam. And then you would run, when you saw a hill coming you‟d go awfully fast down that hill. Heaven knows how fast, maybe twenty miles an hour. And then you got enough steam to go up a hill. And then we came home and I remember my mother-in-law. She said she put a five dollar bill on my picture in Noyes room so he‟d have enough money for the day. That‟s my mother-in-law. Interviewer: Well, was your husband, did he live in the same neighborhood as you did? Mrs. Avery: No, they lived out you know, where the Fanatorium is? Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Avery: They have a beautiful house down there. Just a beautiful house, wasn‟t a mansion, it was just a home. And it had been built by somebody Taylor. And the Grandfather Avery had bought it and they lived there. And it had a barn for the horses they would have had at that time, but not in my time. They had this lovely automobile, about this long. Can you think of something else? Interviewer: How did you meet your husband? Mrs. Avery: I just saw him on the street one day walking a girl home, in high school. I can remember very well, I thought how handsome he was. He was. And that‟s all. Then you just met him at dancing school probably, Saint Cecilia Dancing School. We all went to dancing school Saturday afternoons. When we were young, we went to the two o‟clock class, Calla Travis. And when we got way up to seventeen or so, then we went to the four o‟clock class. We didn‟t have to get home until after six. Interviewer: What kind of dancing was taught at that school? Mrs. Avery: Oh, it was the two-step, the waltz, the square dances. Interviewer: When did, when would you have use for a square dance? Mrs. Avery: I don‟t know. I don‟t remember any, doing it outside dancing school. But we knew how to do it. And, we‟d go to dancing school out of town someplace and we‟d dance. [In] town when there‟s no way of getting out except by train. Everything is in town. We had a big crowd of young people. Interviewer: When you got older and you got married, when did you get married? Mrs. Avery: Nineteen oh seven �5 Interviewer: Nineteen oh seven? Mrs. Avery: Yes. Interviewer: Well, after you were married in the entertaining among married people? What kind, how was the entertaining done? Mrs. Avery: Well, when we got married we‟d have seven o‟clock dinner, if it was a dress-up one. Otherwise, I think it would be about six thirty and you‟d have four courses, had to have four courses. You see I lived on Barclay Street, near John Street, you know where that is? Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Avery: And there was a house down there, it‟s now a parking lot. That‟s where my husband and his two brothers were born. Because Father and Mother Avery evidently bought that house after they got through their boarding house, and lived there. That was forty-seven Barclay. And then you know all about the Hazeltine family? Interviewer: No. Mrs. Avery: No? I think you ought to find out something about these, these, great families. The O‟Briens? Interviewer: That‟s why, that‟s why we interview, we‟re doing these interviews, to find out about them because they‟re people today that are my age for example, you know you hear those names mentioned occasionally. Mrs. Avery: Yes Interviewer: But you don‟t know what they‟re referring to or who they‟re referring to. What those people are like, what they did in the town and so on. That‟s why, doing these interviews to find out about that and make a record of it. Mrs. Avery: Mr. O‟Brien. I‟m talking about John Street. The Hazeltines lived in the middle of John Street. The house is still there, on the north side of the street. And up on Lafayette, about a half block away, Mr. and Mrs. O‟Brien lived. And when the Hazeltine girl, who was a great friend of mine, Fanny Hazeltine, and I graduated from Vassar College, Mr. O‟Brien, was made the ambassador, appointed to Japan. And they took Fanny along. They were neighbors, within half a block of each other. And they went and she went with them and stayed a year, in diplomatic, and that was pretty great in those days, my goodness. So the O‟Brien family you should know about. The Hazeltine family you should know about. Interviewer: Who was Mr. Holt? �6 Mrs. Avery: Well, he lived right up there on the hill, too. Up, up on Lafayette, too. He had daughters. Well he was of the same generation that Mr. and Mrs. O‟Brien, Mr. and Mrs. Hazeltine. Mr. Holt and their girls were younger than I, but in the same crowd. We were all in one big crowd. When we‟d have a party at Saint Cecelia, it would be a big party because we knew everybody; we all knew everybody. Interviewer: I understand that Mr. Holt was, the… Mrs. Avery: Founder of the Kent County Country Club? Interviewer: I also understand that he was somewhat of a social arbitrator in the city. That he was the one who decided, who was in and was out. Is this right? Mrs. Avery: Well, I wouldn‟t know because I was too young to make any difference. I was in as far as that went. Not because of my family though. Just because of me I guess. Interviewer: OK. Mrs. .Avery: I mean my family was just a good family, the Leonards. And of course my father, now we‟re back to Leonard, my grandfather, his father, Heman Leonard came and I think it was about the same time, eighteen forty. You see, nothing happened here until eighteen twenty-six when Louis Campau came and everything grew from there. He started a grocery store; you know where Houseman‟s is? Interviewer: OK. Mrs. Avery: Well in that corner, and he was connected like almost all grocers were with the A&P coffee, tea and then if you bought that you got a saucer; you know they still do that, or a plate. And he was so successful with his china that he went into the china business. And my father had, when he, when he got to the, when his father died, china store Dick Zeyert and Sons. And that was the important store. You got your silver and glass there on the first floor, china on the second floor, hardware on the third floor, and toys on the fourth floor. Everybody went there for all those things. I mean it was generally, I can remember my, one time, my father saying that he always, when he sent a set of china which was a barrel of china, out I mean you had twelve of everything, that, if they didn‟t keep it, it might be a dozen plates, if they didn‟t keep it they brought it back, it was always, they always smelled of it, because if it has soap-suds on it, you knew that they borrowed it from the store long enough to have a party. Well, that‟s an amusing little bit isn‟t it? Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Avery: But they had beautiful china, the kind that Rood has now only even better. My father went to Europe to buy it. He was connected with a great big firm in New York and he went down there and bought. He spent three or four weeks every spring there, buying toys, china, �7 glass, silver. So you can see it was a very important store and the toy department they always had Santa Claus. He was in the window. And then I got old enough finally, to be a cash girl in the toy department and I‟d run back and forth to the office with money and things and that would be done up. Goodness that was important, Christmas time, the few days before Christmas. And then I got so old that I could be clerk. Boy, was that exciting? That is what you want to know. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Avery: Folklore. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Avery: Then of course, everybody came down there and you know everybody who came in almost. You knew people. You weren‟t intimate friends with them but you knew people. What‟s wrong with them in every way. There wasn‟t just parties; it wasn‟t just social, because we couldn‟t have parties all the time. We had a lot of parties. But you don‟t remember the parties; you remember the fun you had. You hide and seek after dinner, and then my mother calling “Eileeeeeen” till I got home. Eight o‟clock. Well, that‟s when you went to bed. And there wasn‟t any of this restlessness. Goodness we had everything we needed and we had fun and friends. It was a great life. It really was. Interviewer: What, what was society based on in those days do you think? If you were, assume that I‟m asking you to define how the society was set up, how did one become a member of society? Mrs. Avery: I don‟t know. You just got to know somebody and were asked in, it‟s asked that‟s all. There wasn‟t any caste about it. Interviewer: It wasn‟t based on money then? Mrs. Avery: No. Not at all, not at all. It was on friendship. Interviewer: Did people that lived in the Hill area, did they have, well when they had parties, for example did they invite people over that lived on the west side of town? Mrs. Avery: No, because they weren‟t their friends. They weren‟t their friends. Interviewer: In other words there… Mrs. Avery: There wasn‟t a caste about it but it was just that your friends over here in the neighborhood, and you had to walk for goodness sakes; you had no way of transportation. No busing. Streetcars, yes. You went everywhere on the streetcar. Oh, we went to the lake at Ramona, we only called it the Lake. We went to the shows every week; our beaus would take us to the shows. Beaus were just boyfriends. There was a very little romance about our high school days. I can remember. I mean it was all friendship and fun. Sound great? �8 Interviewer: Well, it‟s kind of hard for me to imagine I mean, high school today so much different than, just mere friendship. Was at adult parties, was liquor…? Mrs. Avery: No liquor, absolutely not. Interviewer: Why was that? Mrs. Avery: Well, it just wasn‟t done. Interviewer: When did it, when did liquor be, start becoming part of parties? Mrs. Avery: Oh, oh I don‟t know. Not while we lived over there. We moved from that house we built to the corner. And, we came out here in nineteen fifteen. Nobody served liquor at all. Interviewer: You said we came out here, where‟s here? Mrs. Avery: I say we built that house. Interviewer: The one that‟s on Lake Drive? Mrs. Avery: Yes. That big white house and we moved in nineteen fifteen. No, we never thought of it. It just wasn‟t done. We didn‟t even have wine. It just wasn‟t thought of. It just wasn‟t done. Well, it probably was in some circles but not in ours. I mean we went with everybody else but there may have been some people who like Lowes and Blodgetts who may have served wine. I wouldn‟t know. But we never did in our household. And mother and father never did. It‟s just one of those things that wasn‟t done. Interviewer: OK. Mrs. Avery: It‟s like kissing a girl before you‟re engaged. It just wasn‟t done. Or hand-holding, it just wasn‟t done. Nobody held your hand. You wouldn‟t think of walking down the street with somebody holding your hand. Goodness. Interviewer: Times have changed. Mrs. Avery: I, we used to have lovely hayrides. We‟d go way out to Cascade and have supper and come back. On the hayride, a boy put his arm around me and I didn‟t speak to him for a year. A whole year. I wasn‟t any different from rest of the girls. It just wasn‟t done. There‟re certain things that your generation doesn‟t do. I don‟t know whether there is or not. Interviewer: I can‟t think of anything. I‟m going to turn the tape over; it‟s almost done here… Yes, when did the talk about prohibition first start? When, can you first remember hearing talk about prohibition? Mrs. Avery: Oh, I don‟t because there wasn‟t any point in it. There was never any reason for it, for us. We‟d never had anything to drink. �9 Interviewer: How old were you when you took your first drink? Mrs. Avery: Oh, long time ago, I guess. But we didn‟t have it in our house over there. My husband died in forty-seven. Oh, I suppose that, I don‟t know „cause we certainly weren‟t having any whiskey at that time. I mean not how, you know, cocktails, the way we have it now. Interviewer: OK. Do you drink cocktails now? Mrs. Avery: Oh sure, just like everybody else. Interviewer: Well what about the, was this just, you said that you and your husband never had it in the house for example but what, was there somewhat of a double standard? I mean, was it just the women that didn‟t drink or was it also the men? I mean for example, were there saloons downtown where the men could go for lunch and so on? Mrs. Avery: Yes. Interviewer: And they‟d drink at lunch? Mrs. Avery: I don‟t know. Interviewer: Never asked? Mrs. Avery: Not my husband. Interviewer: Ok. Mrs. Avery: It was one of those things that wasn‟t done. When I say that I mean it, just that way. Interviewer: When you built that house across the street were there any of these other houses here? Mrs. Avery: One. One down the street on this side and one being built on the other side. Otherwise it was all woods like this over here. Interviewer: Ok. Now in nineteen fifteen you got back and forth to downtown in an automobile didn‟t you? Mrs. Avery: Yes, by then, we had an automobile. We had an old Tin Lizzy and of course no starter on it. So we left it up on John Street which is a steep hill. Parked it John Street and we‟d walk over and get it and let it run down the hill to start. When I came out here every day to watch them building the house, the men would always start it up for me. I never tried to, it was too hard. Interviewer: Why did, for example, why did you and your husband move away from downtown out to here? �10 Mrs. Avery: Oh, we thought it would be nice to be out here. I lived on Prospect and I used to walk out by myself often. And I liked that corner. Well, we decided that, that downtown was no place to bring up children. Interviewer: Who was Edmond Lowe, or Edward Lowe? Who was he, where did he come from? Mrs. Avery: Well he came from the east I think, I never knew where he came from, I never was curious I suppose, and he was a very important person. A very nice gentleman. And Mr. Blodgett we knew very well. He was, and they built that house out here on Robinson Road, that‟s now Aquinas College—beautiful house. Now if we were asked there for dinner, which we might have been, I don‟t remember, they wouldn‟t serve any liquor. You were invited for seven o‟clock. Got there and you sat down at the table at seven o‟clock. That was what parties were like then. Then they‟d go home at ten or eleven o‟clock. They didn‟t play cards in the evening. Now I‟m speaking of the people that I knew. I‟m not speaking of everybody, I don‟t if everybody… But we didn‟t play cards. My husband never played cards. Interviewer: What would you do after, after you finished eating? Mrs. Avery: Oh, you‟d sit around and visit. First of all the men would sit at the table, or maybe that‟s when they had some wine, I don‟t know. But they‟d sit at the table and then they‟d come out with the ladies. Interviewer: What, the ladies would retire to another room? Mrs. Avery: Yes. Interviewer: When did that, thinking back, when do you think that that kind of living, that kind of society began to change? Mrs. Avery: Well, I don‟t, I was trying to place it over there in that house. Cause we never had cocktail parties over there. And that was in nineteen fifty when I left there. I mean, when my husband was living. My daughter had a beau, who stayed with us, he lived in Cleveland. She married him. And he was an older person. He was twenty-five years older than… And, he had some whisky and in the bathroom, so he may have had some. But we didn‟t serve it. They were married in thirty-five, so it must have been since then. And I don‟t think they ever had any cocktail parties like, like we have now. I‟m sure they didn‟t. Interviewer: Was there any kind of event, anything what, when did society begin to change, when did that style of living and the closeness of the neighborhood that you experienced? Mrs. Avery: Oh. As you got away from it, you didn‟t have neighbors. You see down, down where I lived and where Averys lived they knew all the people around. Mrs. Warner we‟ve just been talking to, lived across from the Avery‟s house, exactly across and she married and we �11 never seemed to know her. We were too far to walk. Nobody had two cars in a family at that time. Interviewer: So what, what started bringing that style of living, living to an end was the dispersal of people? Mrs. Avery: That‟s right. Because, now in the Hill District, they all knew each other and on Lafayette and down John Street where the Hazeltines lived. They all knew each other. The Holts are down there, Campau lived there. Interviewer: This morning talking to a…….Pardon? Mrs. Avery: No. Huguenots, that‟s not their name, oh you know who I mean [Hugharts]. Lived on the corner across from the City Club in that corner brick house. Right across, up Fulton Street. The people knew each other on Fulton Street. The Gays lived up there and he started Berkey and Gay. I should think that would be a good place for you to start, too. Berkey and Gay and I suppose Mrs. Judd told you about the refrigerator company... Interviewer: Ok. Mrs. Avery: …Uncle Charlie Leonard started? He, Uncle Charlie Leonard ran the refrigerator factory and my father ran the store. Do you get a picture of I‟ve, I have given you a picture at all? Interviewer: Yes, fine we‟ll finish there then. INDEX A Aquinas College · 10 Avery Family · 1, 2, 5, 11 Avery, Grandfather · 2, 4 Avery, Mr. · 4 Avery, Noyes · 1, 4 B Barstow , Anna · 1 Barstow Family · 2 Berkey and Gay · 12 Blodgett Family · 2, 9 Blodgett, Mr. · 10 C Campau, Louis · 1, 7 Cary, John · 2 F Fanatorium · 4 G Gun Lake · 4 �12 H O’Brien, Mrs. · 6 Hall Family · 3 Hazeltine Family · 5, 6, 11 Hazeltine, Fanny · 6 Hazeltine, Mr. and Mrs. · 6 Holt, Mr. · 6 Hughart Family · 11 P J Ramona Park · 8 Rood · 7 Penney Family · 3 R Judd, Mrs. · 3, 12 S K Kent County Country Club · 6 Saint Cecelia · 6 Saint Cecilia Dancing School · 4 Salem, Massachusetts · 2 Stevens Family · 3 L Lafayette Street School · 3 Leonard Family · 2, 3, 6 Leonard, Charles · 3 Leonard, Charlie · 12 Leonard, Frank · 2 Leonard, Frank E. · 1, 2, 3 Leonard, Harry · 3 Leonard, Heman · 2, 6 Lowe Family · 2, 9 Lowe, Edward · 10 O O’Brien Family · 5 O’Brien, Mr. · 6 T Travis, Calla · 5 U Union Depot · 2 W Warner, Mrs. · 11 Wealthy Street School · 3 White Steamer · 4 Women's City Club · 11 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e3ef78f9df73fc48c40600c03abe2041.mp3 12eda69efa08d5d26b2080217c1ab727 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_28Avery Title A name given to the resource Avery, Evelyn Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Avery, Evelyn Description An account of the resource Evelyn Leonard was born in Grand Rapids in 1883 and grew up on Prospect Street. Evelyn (Eileen) was the daughter of the inventor of the refrigerator, Frank E. Leonard. Leonard was a Vassar graduate and married Noyes L. Avery in 1907. She was president of both the Women's City Club and Women's University Club in Grand Rapids. Mrs. Avery died on August 4, 1972. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ef0a905ea534573d5cdb66ef520c62c.pdf 1a530d32e0bfc90a215cd576ec84ae2a PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mary Baloyan Interviewed on November 13, 1974 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #44 (1:10:47) Biographical Information Mary Baloyan was born 13 October 1899 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She was the daughter of Martin (Mardiros) A. Baloyan and Nouvart Kurkjian who were married in 1897. Martin was born in Palu, Armenia (now Turkey) in 1868 and died 6 January 1931 in Grand Rapids at his home at 639 Cherry Street SE. Mrs. Nouvart Baloyan was born 3 December 1877 in Palu, Armenia (now Turkey). She survived her husband and died 7 March 1971 at Blodgett Hospital. Mary Baloyan died at Pilgrim Manor in Grand Rapids 21 January 1984 at the age of 84. The Baloyan family plot is in Greenwood Cemetery. ___________ Interviewer: This recording is made on November 13, 1974 at Pilgrim Manor on East Leonard, in the apartment of Miss Baloyan who is a lifelong resident of Grand Rapids. I’m now going to ask Miss Baloyan to tell about her family, her background and her early years as she recalls them in Grand Rapids. Miss Baloyan: Thank you. I am very proud to be able to talk on this subject because I’m so proud of the accomplishments of my parents and other relatives. My parents came to this country in 1897 from what was referred to as Old Armenia. I have seen their passport and it interested me at the time that they could leave the country but could never return. When some years later I took a trip abroad, my relatives were divided on the subject of whether I should revisit that part of the world or not. Since some thought it might be dangerous. My father always used to say, there must be great wealth and resources buried in the mountains of that area since so many Armenians buried their wealth rather than let the enemy Turks take it. My parents had to leave everything they possessed where they had come from, and these days it’s ironic that so many people ask for a hand out or easy access to a living where as I know from firsthand experience that my parents and family had to start with nothing, worked hard and availed themselves to the opportunities of this country. In time, they had three children. My brother was the first Armenian born in Grand Rapids, I was the first Armenian girl born in Grand Rapids and all three of us including, Alfred, my older brother. Alexi, my younger sister who eventually went into interior decorating, and I a middle child. All of us were given outstanding educations and special types of instruction such as in music, dancing, theatre training, interior decoration and my parents too took an active participation in so much of the civic life. �2 Interviewer: I just want to interrupt you a moment and ask, why did your parents happen to choose Grand Rapids? Was there any particular reason? Miss Baloyan: Yes, indeed. My grandfather, who had come to New York in 1890, which is my maternal grandfather, was a steel cabinet maker and as he attempted to work in his craft in New York, he was told he should be in Grand Rapids where the furniture industry was flourishing, and specifically, should be with John Widdicombe. He became the first Grand Rapids settler when he had promised Mr. Widdicombe that if he went into his employ he would never leave him. Widdicombe began taking an interest in him and a very old-fashioned and charming kind of loyalty came about because it was, in time when Grandfather wanted to bring his wife and grown up children to this city to join him, it included my maternal grandmother, my parents, newly married the year before, and a couple of the aunts and an uncle who came to be known locally as Armen Kurkjian. They came to Grand Rapids, Mr. Widdicombe had been instrumental in finding a home for Steven’s family to come too and it was in that home that my brother and I were later born. In time…. Interviewer: Where was that, Miss Baloyan? Miss Baloyan: Where? Interviewer: Where was that? Miss Baloyan: On Fifth Street, on the west side at that time, not too far from Grandfather’s place of employment, at that time. And so we three children grew up, on the west side, until I graduated from the University of Michigan, some years later. Interviewer: Could we back up just for a moment, I’d like you to describe your relationship to Mr. Armen Kurkjian whom I, whom I knew and rather well, because of my family’s early association with Fountain Street Church. Miss Baloyan: Yes, Uncle Armen had come to this country as a boy of 14. Interviewer: He was your mother’s brother? Miss Baloyan: He was my mother’s brother. He brought certain old-fashioned principles to this country with him. Such as the belief that young people shouldn’t smoke and other principles that he sometimes got laughed at. But he used to retain a very lofty kind of set of principles. Eventually as various members of the family joined local organizations, he got quite a good education partly through their encouragement of those who became interested in him. He met at the University of Michigan, eventually, a man named Melvin Baldwin, who became his college room-mate. They became very good friends. My uncle was in civil engineering and some years later, came to Grand Rapids. It must have been mechanical engineering, because he went into Oliver Machinery Company in which Mr. Melvin Baldwin’s family and the Tuthills had been very active. My uncle was, for many years, their sales manager and at one time, opened an office �3 in Saint Louis, Missouri for them. He eventually met, married the woman who left Grand Rapids as his secretary, whose maiden name was Elvestra Wurzburg and who became known as my uncle Sid did for her philanthropic work in the city. Both of them interested in both Fountain Street Church and crippled children’s work, Rotary Rehabilitation work. In the mean time my father opened an Oriental restaurant on East Fulton Street and an art goods shop, a block east of there also on East Fulton. They were quite, recognized as quality shops and in the summer-time when his children had vacation from school, he came to open summer-time resort branches in such places as Grand Haven or Muskegon, had even gone as far away as Cleveland, Ohio, Kalamazoo and Benton Harbor. However his primary interest was rugs and related art objects. My mother took a great interest in music, interpreting for less fortunate Armenians and in education her children. She herself joined the Lady’s Literary Club, eventually Women’s City Club and other broadening influences. She took a very active interest in church work. In this particular branch of the family attended Saint Mark’s Episcopal Church where I have been a member now fifty eight years. It has made a great many fine friendships for us among other values. For instance, through the work of my family, my sister and brother also went into related fields. Through the work of my family, we came to meet people in the various arts, so then we began taking an active interest. Eventually, I was encouraged to go into Civic Theatre work where I went on a board, worked in that area for twenty years, and became vice-president. Through our music lessons we became interested in concerts and help local concert campaigns. Also I became interested, after many years later, after mother’s death, in establishing some music scholarships on a college level for Interlochen in memory of my mother. There are also a memoriam of this at St. Mark’s church in her memory because while she was choir mother there, it was the consuming interest that meant a great deal to her. The other arts were not neglected. We had an interest in all of them. I eventually went to the University of Michigan after starting at junior college, became interested in English, along with several other hobbies such at the theatre, continuing as a hobby. After I had attained my master, masters in English at the University of Michigan I started teaching school six months in Zeeland. Interviewer: When was this, Miss Baloyan? Miss Baloyan: The beginning of my career was in 1923. As a matter of fact, when, the following year I came back, I came to Grand Rapids to start a career in teaching. It was the beginning of 42 ½ years in Grand Rapids in teaching—most of it at Ottawa Hills High School. The last thirteen years at Junior College, so that I taught English 43 years, 15 of those years also dramatics. Because I went for six years of education to the fine arts department of Yale University, where I was privileged to attend the famous Yale Workshop under George Pierce Baker, who used to be at Harvard but moved over to Yale when an enterprising philanthropist named Harkness built a good building, good theatre for Yale. So the work was transferred over there. I came back to Grand Rapids, established a laboratory theatre in Ottawa Hill High School which for fifteen years functioned under the name of mine. We sent out from that theatre people into many artistic areas. Some of them now professional and it’s a source of great happiness to me that many of the �4 people who participated and worked so hard, remember it and comment on it with joy to this day. Interviewer: Who were some of these people, could you tell who some of them are? Miss Baloyan: Yes, Jack Thompson, for instance, is on a college staff in New York, he appeared two or three years ago as the author of an article in the Harper’s magazine in which he attempted to recall his yesterdays in Grand Rapids, as his title was. “It was my privilege to have him name me in that article as his favorite teacher”. So, then Lloyd Matoon, he went into the commercial end of TV work, specializing for a while in the Chrysler ads. Out west, the man who is lighting the Lawrence Welk show did the lighting for me, in the laboratory theatre. His name is Wallace Stanard. His name is still seen on TV in connection with being technical manager for the Lawrence Welk program. There were others who went out west and there a some whose names I don’t just recall now, but many have commented. Several of the presidents of the local Women’s City Club have been former members of that group. Shall I name some of them? Interviewer: Yes. Miss Baloyan: Mrs. Birch, Mrs. Whittier, and Mrs. the present President, Mrs. Smiley I could be forgiven, I hope for some delight in their continuing to enjoy memories of those days because I believe so deeply that the extras in education such as contact with creativity, helped to give lasting joy in the memories of people who’ve experienced the creativity. Our work has included writing and designing of costumes, coloring of materials, making of patterns, make, designing scenery, making scenery, planning and & operating the lighting, and so many other areas. Ann Kleiner went to Yale after a number of years. She had been a student of mine in the laboratory theatre and she is now in Detroit doing creative lighting for Detroit businesses. Interviewer: Is that Bob Kleiner’s sister? Miss Baloyan: Yes, it is. When she comes to Grand Rapids, she contacts me sometimes. I take great delight in the fact that the students who had with me in dramatics, had invented the nickname “Chief” for me because they said my own name was a little long to say back-stage. Well, some amusing results followed, for instance the Kleiners were so use to calling me Chief at home, that their aunt Mrs. Seidman, now many years later, when she sees me downtown, says “Hello Chief,” and I love hearing say it. I am very proud of the viewpoint that my parents brought to this country from a place where there was so much tyranny. Their attitude was, that there are opportunities here, let us avail ourselves of some of the opportunities and let us help ourselves. I’m afraid I’m a little impatient with those who sit around and wait for help if they can help themselves because I’ve seen examples of members of my family including other cousins and uncles and aunts, members of my family, get through hard work and enjoy it and become contributors, not just absorbers, in society. One of the things for which I’m very grateful is that, though my family came from a land with so much tyranny, they welcomed the opportunity of freedom here. One evidence of it is that various branches of the family attended different �5 churches and became active contributors in different churches. Yet they didn’t sit in judgment on one another because it wasn’t the same as the old Armenian Orthodox Apostolic Church. I’ve always been very happy in the Episcopal Church. My uncle and aunt, the Kurchins, were always extremely happy in the Fountain Street Church. And this is just part of the freedom that they displayed all the way through. Some of them have been very funny. For instance, there was once a man who traveled all the way from California to this town because he’d heard there were unmarried Armenian girls in this town. He was a complete stranger, but he had once come here, during the Near East Relief War. He had come here to lecture and had seen some of us participating in programs and, decided, this was a good family to be attached to. So years later he came back, in order to try to make a match, went to my parents, and tried to persuade them to allow him to begin courting one of us, and to his amazement, instead of arranging a match, my father told him that they never interfered with the choices and decisions we made. So I’m proud that my family had acquired so much of the principles of this country. I’m grateful for them and, if sometimes, I fancy that some of the teaching I have done has been of some value, I cannot fail to give great credit to the family of character and intelligence that gave me a good start in life. Other subjects I should have touched on, perhaps, you would like to know, I moved from the West side to the Heritage Hill area. Interviewer: I’d like to ask you, I like to ask you some questions about how long did you live on the West Side and did you, go to school over there and if so, where? That’s the sort of thing, I’d like to go into now. Miss Baloyan: I attended Union High School as did my brother and sister both. I was given many fine opportunities there. Worked on the literary periodicals there, I graduated from Union High School in 1918. I started attending Junior College two years, where I made some of my life-long friendships, from other areas in the city and where I came to be a great believer in Junior College for giving a good foundation of an education. Then I went on to the University of Michigan for two years to get my BA, first. The year I was graduated from the University of Michigan, 1922. Our family who then had some stores on East Fulton for some time, decided to moved to the East side and selected a spacious place on Cherry Street, because it was not far from the downtown area. We found it a good central location to radiate from and as I taught in many different localities in the city, starting downtown at North Division two years, the Harrison Park Junior High on the Northwest, five years then in the Southeast at Ottawa Hills twenty-one years and interrupting the act for education and then eventually going downtown again to Junior College for thirteen years. And I radiated to the various schools and to the various Civic organizations, I had become interested in. Eventually I went on a board of directors and not only of the Civic Theatre and Community Concerts and Urban League, but I also did volunteer work. And my sister went into dancing and interior decorating. My brother stayed for awhile in my father’s business and eventually he opened a retail store of his own for rugs but later he started a rug servicing place on the side of the building. Mother joined an organization both for American and Armenian and both my parents tried to be good citizen in both, I feel that one of the �6 advantages of my background has been that I have been expected to be both a good American and a good Armenian and I have come to believe that this is for me at least, a better idea even, than the melting pot idea because I have seen that as various ethnic groups retain their customs and identity the various groups contribute a great deal of richness to American life. I have enjoyed living in the near downtown area. There are many advantages. There used to be even more. The streets are kept very clean in the winter because it’s a passageway through downtown. Those residences now considered old and large, used to be one-family residences and one knew one’s neighbors and there were many prime families and it was very…. Interviewer: Who were some, who were some of your neighbors…. Miss Baloyan: Well, across the street used to be some branches of the Alby family and next to them the Edwin Kleins who became active in a different kind of church, where he helped to spread the Giddeon Bible around. Next to them was a family whose name now escapes me but they lived in the brick house a very long time. Just west of us there used to be the Blanchards, there are many other old families whose names I would have to look up again to recall but, we all knew one another and it was a personal commitment to one another that I think was fine. It had another advantage that as people traveled towards downtown for business or religious purposes or other purposes, they had to pass houses such as ours and they often stopped and became acquainted and to this day they come and on the yards that are kept up well and the yards that aren’t. And I feel that I’ve been very many places in my life. I have never felt that the fact that I was from an immigrant family had handicapped me in the slightest respect because people of breeding and education apply these qualities to their outlooks and to the way they live. I’ve encountered people, we have been able to share ideas and laughter and an interest in causes. We have even found controversial subjects such as sometimes, politics and I have not felt any barriers to camaraderie and in fact, people of quality are actually interested in the different aspects of your life and background. Such as mine is full of unique customs and traditions. On New Year’s Eve, when my grandparents were living, they used to collect the entire clan, cousins, uncles, aunts, the children, into the living room which ran into the dining room. We’d all get down on our knees and our grandfather would lead us in prayer, for the coming year. We learned a great many customs that were unique to us. And I remember one time when I was in grade school, another custom that puzzled me for awhile, but I’m amused by now, because I was short of stature, I was to lead a wand drill in a program for relatives. Besides that the very charming teacher was dating my uncle at that time and I always wondered which was the reason that I was chosen. But I was to lead and my grandmother decides to come to the program. I was a little bit shocked when she kissed the hand of the principal, the teacher, and any other dignitaries around because since I had been exposed to a few of the customs and teachings in school I had decided very ardently that it was unsanitary for grandmother to kiss the hands of other people. As some years passed and I reflected what a sweet and loving grandmother I’d had, it seemed to me it was sweet and humble of her to do it because it was her way of paying respects and gratitude for what had been done for her members of her family. So though part of my bringing up has been �7 different, a considerable of it has been the same. I was fortunate enough to win a half scholarship in piano with Otto [(?) Molly], who started the symphony before the current Grand Rapids Symphony. He was a magnificent teacher and quite an interesting man, I used to take my piano lessons in the very room that is now the drawing room for the Women’s City Club. It was then his studio. Sometimes has as many as three grand pianos in it, usually Steinways. And he was tall, very strong man and sometimes, especially when I first transferred from an organ teacher to a piano teacher he felt I was still playing the organ on the piano and he put his knee under the piano board, would raise his knees and the board would leave my hands and would push my hands up and, he did many other interesting eccentric things that have to make him picturesque and that created great affection for him. He used to draw designs on music to show you either the way he wanted your wrist movement to go or the way he didn’t want your arm to go. He used to have other musicians come in from Chicago, where he had come from, to make records with him and if I’d had a good lesson because he knew I was enchanted by these informal sessions he used to reward me by allowing me to sit in the room on a stool quietly while he and a violinist and a cellist made beautiful, musical records. He had a hobby of photography that caused him to give the results of his picture making sometimes to students. Usually however, you knew if you’d had a good lesson because he wouldn’t say anything. If you didn’t have a good lesson he would point it out. Oh, I have been grateful not only to special teachers such as that, but, for instance to the Calle Travis Studio where I studied there from, with Harriet Blood, to study dancing and then years later after I had trained in dramatics I taught ballet and pantomime to some of Miss Travis’ senior students. It included such people as Marsha Travis, the Goodspeed girls, and so many other lovely girls whose names, I would have to look up but, some of the lovely young matrons of Grand Rapids. But teaching ballet, ballet pantomime in Miss Travis’ studio was a great privilege, since I always thought she had an outstanding ballet studio. I have covered several of the arts but our interests and activities were even more extensive than anything I have mentioned. So whatever else you would like to know I’d be happy to go into. Interviewer: Well, I can’t help but realize that, I run into you fairly often in the art museum. Have you ever had any special role in, in the life of the museum? Miss Baloyan: Only in the respect that, when a former director Otto Bach was here his wife Ciel (?) Cile Bach used to write skits sometimes which, I sometimes helped to perform for them. I remember too that a Dr. Rosenswag and I were together on an interview program one time. I can’t claim to have helped them in any other respect, except that we have always been interested in our family in helping in minor ways and just now I have presented them with some of my father’s fine ancient porcelain vases of Chinese make. Some of them are from the Chung Ling period, several centuries old. They have been appraised, it’s very valuable, has been accessed by the appraisers as extremely gorgeous and they will be at the museum in memory of my father. I have also promised to send them and, very soon, at the beginning of a new year, and send them and the public museum also, some silk rugs, since silk rugs are not very common here. The one that will go to the Art Museum is a silk Kashan(?) prayer rug of, some beauty and rarity. I can’t �8 say I’ve done a great deal for them, but I have enjoyed such contacts as I’ve had. And believe it is one of local institutions that should be helped. I have also felt that way about the Saint Cecilia Music Society of which I’m also a member and I wouldn’t know where to draw the line except to say all the educational and cultural, the artistic organizations in town receive our interest and support often. Interviewer: You want to stop for just a minute? I think we’ll turn the tape over at this time and proceed on side two. Interviewer: We stopped our interview for a moment and talked about a few other matters and Miss Baloyan has recalled that there are some other people she would like to talk about and I’m going to hand the microphone to her now and let her continue. Miss Baloyan: When my father’s store was on East Fulton the Grand Rapids Press and the Herald, the morning paper, were both within a block of distance from his store with the result that as we dropped into the store the members of the family became acquainted with some of the main writers in Grand Rapids including reporters, columnists, critics and even the editor of the Press, Mr. Booth and Mr. Frank Sparks from the Herald. They became of such interest to us that they actually influenced us in various ways and we were very fond of them. At one time since I had become so much interested in books, my mother used to make sure that when we were children we were always surrounded by educational material. Miss May Quigley, the children’s librarian used to tell me that every Saturday afternoon Mother used to walk to the library and say I would like a book of poems for my Mary and the result was I always had books around me and it became a lifetime interest so that gradually I became interested in writing. But I had so many other interests too. So I went to see Mr. Booth, the editor of the Press to interview him on what he thought of journalism as a possible career for a young lady who was attending the University of Michigan. And he said to me and he knew us well by then. He said I would like to encourage you to go into it but he said at this time you would have to limit yourself to obituaries and social notes and he said if you would find that sufficiently interesting then it would be well to go into journalism. When I think now of the changes in opportunities for women journalists I recall that with great respect for his honesty in that period of time. However, as I became interested in other area such as theatre, I attended various summer theatres, one in Booth Bay Harbor, Maine and one in the north of this state with one of the directors from Civic Theatre here. And since I had finished training at the Yale University Theatre, the Yale workshop department and since they didn’t allow us to specialize, it was a broad thorough training, and at that time as I wondered how I could use it, Miss Mary Remington, the well beloved drama critic of the Grand Rapids Press, said to me, if you decide to apply as the director of the Civic Theatre, we will back you. But by that time I was interested in teaching because I felt I could combine many of my interests in the teaching area. But to this day I have retained a deep interest in the work of our local columnists and critics. Don’t find them all equally good. For instance, Miss Margarete Kerns was a name I came to know well, and I hope that some of the newer people coming will match the contributions that were made by Mary Remington, Margarete Kerns, and others. I have also �9 come to respect the work of Jerry Elliot who writes with a distinctive style. And I think that some of these people who we have taken for granted have, made much more expanded contributions than we’ve realized. For instance, one of the special interests of the Cyprus situation to me last year was the fact that former Junior college student of mine, for I came to teach in Junior College eventually, was a boy who later became cultural attaché with the American Embassy in Cyprus. I wasn’t sure whether he had been returned to this country or not during the recent troubles and I knew that after his work at Junior College he had worked for a while with Mr. Elliot, Jerry Elliot and others at the Grand Rapids Press. I started to investigate and learned fortunately in May he had been returned to this country and there was a story within recent months of the fact that his wife and child had followed him. So you see reporters and columnists have not only done an interesting job for us but have trained some future journalist and government workers, who have contributed to our daily lives. I think some of fail to realize what a great town Grand Rapids actually is. Several times in the opportunities that I’ve had I have had tempting openings in other areas of this country but contrary to Mr. Butts, opinion of the area, I have loved Grand Rapids and I made the decision to come back here and to stay here and I’ve never regretted it. I know there are many others. Grand Rapids not too large, not to small and it’s had all the opportunities that the larger centers offer and it’s a good thing that some of us do prefer coming back to our town and bringing with us, experiences we have picked up elsewhere so that through our travels, we can bring a little of Maine, a little of Connecticut, a little bit of northern Michigan and so many other areas, back to Grand Rapids. I don’t think it’s an accident that Grand Rapids is foremost in some of the contemporary art projects of recent years and has shown leadership in other progressive areas I think it’s because, there is an interest here in good things. I don’t even think that the furniture industry has completely left us, for its influence on modern life can be shown in our continuing preference for quality in daily life. And I’m so happy to have known some of the people who have worked in connection with the arts in Grand Rapids and with furniture in Grand Rapids and with business in Grand Rapids. You asked, Mr. Hutchins, about my uncle Armen Kurchin one of the smart things he helped to do happened when the depression was felt so deeply here and some of the furniture factories were wondering what the future of the city would be. Well, the Chamber of Commerce and my uncle actively participating, used their skills for helping to bring in new metal industries and other new interests that have continues here and have helped to keep our commerce, successful as much as anywhere else in any period. Interviewer: You mentioned having written Secretary Butts in regard to his rather unfortunate remarks about Grand Rapids, if you would just like to comment on that. Miss Baloyan: I was indignant as I’m sure so were others, so I wrote Mr. Butts, that although I know Mr. Butts that you must have been at least half joking in your reference to Grand Rapids, when you suggested that, take away a furniture factory or two and the town could blow into Canada, I said there is a suggestion there that we are provincial. I said far from being provincial, this is a highly cosmopolitan town in many ways. Where else can you find in a middle-sized �10 town six colleges, an art museum that is sought out by neighboring communities, a public museum that goes in, that brings in many ethnic groups and it goes into other communities with its activities, this is a town of several hundred churches, this is a town which was smart enough when the furniture industry began suffering, weakening, smart enough to bring in other industries so that it could succeed if not always in the same way, then in new ways. This is indeed a cosmopolitan town with all the opportunities that one could find in the larger communities and so we’re not in the least provincial and I’m sure that although our new president may have compassion for workers in agriculture he is well acquainted with other aspects of Grand Rapids life too and so Mr. Butts in our community we like the authentic. Interviewer: Speaking of the president, do you know Mr. Ford or Mrs. Ford? Miss Baloyan: I know both, President and Mrs. Ford. In fact, at one time President Ford, as a choir boy sang in the Saint Mark’s Church Choir. His parents, his mother and his step-father, the Jerry Ford Seniors were extremely, highly respected both in our church and the community and they were wonderful people. In the later years I came to know Betty too as a dancer. In fact, in one of our local dramatic programs, she danced for us very beautifully, very gracefully. They are very fine people although one may differ with a particular political decision and practice, anybody who knows Jerry or Betty cannot doubt their integrity and good intentions. I will say they are very religious people, sincerely religious. I think we are fortunate that there are people of character who will try to help us out at a time character seems like a lost quality in this country, I don’t really believe that. I want to emphasize it just seems that way. Interviewer: Let’s turn it off a minute, Miss Baloyan, when you… I’d like to ask you, how you first became interested in the Urban League because that’s in, you were one of the first members, I believe? Miss Baloyan: I had been doing some work in dramatics when an old school-mate Marsha Marshall(?) who was in the Urban League work asked if I’d be interested in trying some dramatics with the minority group and whites working together. It sounded like an interesting project so I did one year of class work, in dramatics for both blacks and whites together. We met in the basement of the St. Philip’s Church which is called the Under-Croft and then at the end of the year, we gave a program at the local YMCA, where we were given an auditorium type of room with a platform and my students from classes at Ottawa Hills supplied the scenery and did the back-stage work and we gave a bi-racial dramatic program. Then at the end of that year, I was asked if I’d like to go on a board. I went on a board for three years at a time when Dr. Claytor was president at the end of that time I had a kind of collapse, at school and had to go to the hospital so I thought for reasons of health I should not consider returning to the board so I served one year of volunteer work in dramatics and three years on the board. And the Urban League work was most fascinating. One of the great benefits was that I got to know Paul and Ethel Philips real well and they are to this day among my very good friends and I’m still very much interested in the welfare of that project. This is just one of several of the civic groups that I �11 got interested in. The community Concerts Organization showed great promise for awhile because although there were New York agencies helping us, advising us and booking for us, the actual campaign work was done locally and we were able to bring international artists at a very low cost because many citizens helped to sell season memberships. You became a member by buying this season ticket. This work could have gone on indefinitely if the local group had not changed from the original plans, it fell through. I think probably the civic organization I worked for the longest was the Civic Theatre Group. Interviewer: When did you start to work for the Civic Theatre, were you, was it formed, when you were originally associated with it? Miss Baloyan: I joined in the year that Maud Feely was the director. She was a professional actress here with a professional troupe. Interviewer: In what year was that again? Miss Baloyan: Doing it from memory I would say roughly 1924. I was in the second play that was given called the Doctor, directed by Feely. For a time… Interviewer: How do you spell her last name? Miss Baloyan: F-double e-l-y. For a time it satisfied me to do character acting and when especially when Paul Stevenson came and the movement changed from the St. Cecilia building over on the west side in Old Germania Hall it was so colorful and the director was so talented that it became an enchanting and rewarding activity to act for him. In the meantime, he advised me, to go into some aspect of the theatre, possibly directing and I came to realize that directing would satisfy me most of all because although we the American public glorify the actors actually the director is one of those getting the greatest satisfaction because he has to be so creative that he can pull all the different arts together, that are involved in one unified production and approach and so because of Mr. Stevenson’s suggestion that I go on with work at Yale University, I did so and continued my interest in Civic Theatre when I returned as doing it as a hobby. I was on their board a long number of years and worked with them twenty years so with the work at several of the local buildings including the Ladies Literary Club, St. Cecelia, Germania Hall, before they began hiring public buildings when some of us gave our greatest devotion to it. The early days were colorful and interesting….. Interviewer: Who were some of the people in the early days that you remember? Miss Baloyan: Well, of course, the one that many Grand Rapids citizens would remember would be Mrs. Myrtle Coon Sherman. When her son who was a professional actor died, she decided to have a Saturday night salon, a weekly salon meeting in her apartment. And so she invited as a kind of memorial to him a group of local people which included Millicent Mackaway now Millicent Hubbard, Nacib Demusse, the former city manager of Battle Creek, Camilia Boone, �12 who married Nacib Demusse, Paul Stevenson, me and several other people who used to meet in her apartment weekly. We would meet professional people that came through the town briefly. We had a literary, artistic, theatrical interest and this group was part of the bowl work of Civic Theatre. Not the only ones but part of the bowl work and well, among some of the main people in later years, Mr. Phil Buchen was on one of the boards. Mr. A…I believe Harold Hartger was on the board, of course Allen G. Miller was an active member, it’s I’m afraid trying to go back without notes or doing and research leaves a great many gaps of important names, But these are some of the people. Interviewer: You must have known Louise Hirst? Miss Baloyan: Of course Louise Hirst, was a good friend of mine, and and a very active member, so was Mrs. Steketee and a…. Interviewer: Which Mrs. Steketee? Miss Baloyan: John Steketee’s mother. Interviewer: Oh, yes, yes. Miss Baloyan: And well, there were such well known names in Grand Rapids, such devoted, loyal people that’s it’s a shame that right now I don’t recall all the names too readily but, they worked hard in those early years. Interviewer: I like to ask a question, I know you’re a long, long time member of St. Mark’s Episcopal Church, are you, in any particular church group or guild in that, in that church? Miss Baloyan: I’m delighted you asked me this question because in the three years since my mother’s death, in the years that I’ve been alone, the opportunities at St. Mark’s Episcopal Church have meant survival for us. I am in some of the adult classes and they are taught by various members of the clergy. I am also in a Tuesday night discussion group, which takes up interesting, topics. I am also a member of Cathedral League, it was my mother’s guild and as I started taking her in later years, I was asked to join and did. Mrs. Harry B. Wagner is the present president of it. I have been extremely active in the classes conducted by the Reverend Mr. George Howell and the presently Mr. James (?) and presently the evening, Tuesday evening, group is being conducted by Mr. Peter Winter. So all three of our clergy are participating in a very fine learning opportunity for adults as the enrollment of the young people began dwindling. The so called task force planning, the educational program for the church created an enlarged program for adults and it has been extremely well received so that there are at least seventy-five adults enrolled in the Sunday morning classes now and I participate regularly, and feel that I have learned a great deal and one of the incidental bonuses is the delightful fellowship with church members. At one time when we were younger we knew the people in a young people’s group real well, but then as years followed we didn’t always have the opportunities to come to �13 know our fellow churchmen, intimately. These adult classes have provided fellowship together with what I consider a very beneficial part of our church program, the Sunday morning coffee following the church service which is an opportunity for visiting with one’s friends and I will say I have come to know dozens of church members well as individuals and they have come to be so important in my life. They’re so kind and considerate and thoughtful. And it’s such a joy to meet them out, say on a symphony night or other nights. One feels that one has acquired a second family. The church program has come to function very well. A part of it that I hadn’t expected to enjoy so much but do enjoy is the opportunity to serve on the community involvement committee I was asked to visit some of the agencies to which our church has contributed and I have interviewed their directors, written up reports of their answers and of the activities of these social agencies and we have started a file on some of the agencies that our church is interested in. We are going to make our next project the effort to get more individuals involved in active volunteering for some of the organizations that we feel are worthy. And this opportunity has been so interesting, so satisfying, as one gets so tremendously interested and then one reads in the paper that this or that group had to give up because they couldn’t continue financially. It became a personal disaster because one has become so much convinced of the worthiness of that project. Interviewer: Can you think of a particular one that has suffered, gone out of existence? Miss Baloyan: Well, the Baxter Community has, hadn’t releases and news stories saying that they’re having problems. I have heard a recent story that there may be funds coming to their rescue. But as a former teacher I am especially distressed because part of their programs consisted of the effort to educate all people of all races who live in a particular under privileged community, who wish to go to that center. The Baxter Community Center, offers education in so many areas and including some of the basic education work that may be found in quite a number of other centers also but it does not limit itself to that. I think that’s one of the most notable ones that has suffered for lack of funds. Interviewer: All right, I think we’ve covered quite a multitude of subjects, I’d like to ask you a question now, you just moved in the last few days I believe, Up to this new facility, the Pilgrim Manor, you lived, I believe, up to your move in the, your old family home on Cherry Street, is that correct? Miss Baloyan: Yes. We lived in that home fifty-two years. Interviewer: What was the address? Miss Baloyan: Six-thirty-nine Cherry Street. And I have now been at Pilgrim Manor two weeks and it has solved a number of problems for me. One certainly can no longer be alone and if one wishes to leave the group and other people one has one’s room and numerous places he can escape to lovely courts, with beautiful views and classroom, the activities don’t completely, fill one’s interest, some of us are allowed to drive, I continue to drive my car so that I can still seek �14 other areas where other interests of mine are but, this is a very friendly place to be with numerous opportunities, it is a concept that I was lucky enough to have in existence in my time. I shudder to think what people used to have to do in their retirement years a few years back. What a blessing that now, there are retirement homes often started by churches and sometimes built partly with federal funds, but what a blessing this particular retirement home has a hundred and fifty eight residents. There is a bus that is able sometimes to drive us to shopping centers or to other areas of the interest, if there are as many as nine persons interested. It’s easily available to downtown. There’s considerable freedom one is urged to continue attending their church of his choice, is urged to continue seeing his own physician and yet there is a good health center here too. It’s of course requiring some adjustments from a home that I have known for fifty-two years but, although many happy years were spent in that home, the time comes when one looks forward to the time when he may want and need more help, Thank God there is such a thing as a retirement home concept. And Pilgrim Manor is a very friendly one. Interviewer: I think that’s perhaps a good place to close our interview. I’m delighted to have had this opportunity to learn about many of your activities and interests over the years. You certainly had a fascinating life, and you’re one of the best beloved people in our community. I’ve heard that from many, many people. So, it’s now, I believe ten after three and, I hope maybe someday we can have another chat. INDEX A C Alby Family · 6 B Bach Family · 8 Baldwin, Melvin · 3 Baloyan, Alexi (Sister) · 1 Baloyan, Alfred (Brother) · 1 Baloyan, Martin (Mardiros) A. (Father) · 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 11 Baloyan, Nouvart Kurkjian (Mother) · 2, 3, 9, 11, 13 Baxter Community Center · 14 Birch, Mrs. · 4 Blanchard Family · 6 Blood, Harriet · 8 Boone, Camilia · 13 Booth, Mr. · 9 Buchen, Phil · 13 Butts, Secretary · 10, 11 Cathedral League · 13 Civic Theatre · 3, 6, 9, 12, 13 Claytor, Dr. · 11 Coon Sherman, Myrtle · 12 D Demusse, Nacib · 13 E Elliot, Jerry · 9 F Feely, Maud · 12 Ford, President and Mrs. · 11 Fountain Street Church · 2, 3, 5 �15 H R Hirst, Louise · 13 Howell, Reverend George · 13 Hubbard, Millicent · 13 Remington, Mary · 9 Rosenswag, Dr. · 8 K Kerns, Margarete · 9 Klein Family · 6 Kleiner Family · 5 Kleiner, Ann · 4 Kurchin Family · 5, 10 Kurchin, Armen (Uncle) · 2, 3, 5, 7, 10 Kurkjian, Armen (Uncle) · 2 Kurkjian, Grandfather · 2, 7 Kurkjian, Grandmother · 2, 7 L Lady’s Literary Club · 3 Lawrence Welk Show · 4 M S Saint Mark’s Episcopal Church · 3, 11 Seidman, Mrs. · 5 Smiley, Mrs. · 4 Sparks, Frank · 9 St. Cecilia's Music Society · 8, 12 Stanard, Wallace · 4 Steketee, Mrs. · 13 Stevenson, Paul · 12, 13 T Thompson, Jack · 4 Travis, Marsha · 8 U Matoon, Lloyd · 4 Union High School · 5 University of Michigan · 2, 6, 9 Urban League · 6, 11 O W Oliver Machinery Company · 3 Ottawa Hills High School · 4 Wagner, Mrs. Harry B. · 13 Whittier, Mrs. · 4 Widdicombe, John · 2 Winter, Peter · 13 Women’s City Club · 3, 4, 7 Wurzburg, Elvestra · 3 P Philips, Paul and Ethel · 11 Pilgrim Manor · 1, 14, 15 Q Quigley, May · 9 Y Yale University · 4, 9, 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3dd900e17fcd265d94690c4b044354af.mp3 b03ddd1898ce3aed565de7606de81310 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_44Baloyan Title A name given to the resource Baloyan, Mary Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baloyan, Mary Description An account of the resource Mary Baloyan's parents came from Armenia in 1897. She was the first Armenian girl born October 13, 1899 in Grand Rapids. She graduated from the University of Michigan in 1922. She later was a teacher at Ottawa Hills High School, JRCC, and in Zeeland for about forty-three years total. She was involved with the Urban League, Community Concerts Organization, and Baxter Community Center. She was Vice-President of the Civic Theatre, and established music scholarships to the Interlochen Arts Academy. Mary Baloyan died on January 21, 1984. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4104ebfdbffd1447b36d087807b92e25.pdf 4612d87fb5ee4f075e4db9695a6a41c1 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History Collections, RHC-23 Josephine Bender Interviewed on September 9, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape 1 & 2 (30:40) Biographical Information: Josephine Bender was born 17 April 1894 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, the daughter of Charles Henry Bender and Sally Knapp. Josephine died aged 101 years old on 26 March 1996 in Grand Rapids. She and her parents are buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. Charles Henry Bender was born 11 September 1860 in Batavia, Genesee County, New York, the son of William Bender and Josephine Hamberger. The parents were born in Bavaria and Baden, respectively. Charles Bender came to Grand Rapids in 1881. He died 28 March 1936. Charles married Sally Knapp 5 February 1891. She was born in 1871 in New Orleans, Louisiana, the daughter of Theodore J. Knapp and (_____). Sally died in 1953. ___________ Interviewer: Where did you grow up as a child? Miss Bender: I grew up in Grand Rapids and I was born in a street called Terrace Avenue, which was an extension of Prospect Street, south of Wealthy. There was one block in there which was all built up, beyond that, it was mostly vacant lots and an occasional house here and there. A good many prominent people in Grand Rapids, at that time, lived there. For instance, the Wilder Stevens lived on that block. He was in Foster Stevens [Foster, Stevens & Company], which was the big china, silverware, and that sort of thing store. Then there were the Leonards, the Frank Leonards, Mr. Leonard had another big china store. The Mormans, they were the big, or one of the big, coal companies S.A. Morman & Company. The parsonage for the Baptist Church was right across the street from our house. I can remember that there was a Mr. Randall [Rev. John Herman Randall] who was the minister, very popular man. A good many people came up there of the evening to get married. My father would be sitting on the front porch in his smoking jacket and slippers in the evening and Mr. Randall would come across the street and say, “Bender, come on over and stand up with these two.” So, my father [Charles H. Bender] would go over and be the best man, for someone he had never seen before. It was a very interesting block. Then just north of Wealthy, it was almost all a Dutch population. That was where Kos’s grocery store got started, it being, to begin with, just a little addition on the front of the Kos’s house. They had things like needles and thread and bread (there wasn’t much bread bought at that time). Yeast cakes I remember well because I was always being sent over for a yeast cake or two. There was a very fine street of substantial Dutch (Holland) people. Interviewer: Now the neighborhood that you lived in, was that, you said a very short street? �2 Miss Bender: Yes, it [Terrace Avenue] was only between Wealthy & Logan. Interviewer: About how many families lived on that street? Miss Bender: I suppose maybe twenty families lived on that street. They all owned their homes, of course, they didn’t change hands much. Much of the neighborhood life consisted of going over of an evening and sitting on somebody’s porch. There was a good deal of exchanging of food. Someone who had had a particularly good pie made well, they would take it over. If there was anything the matter with anybody then everybody took things to them, and saw that they were all right. It was probably more of a neighborhood because it was somewhat isolated than I would imagine, maybe, some other streets were here. It was a real closely knit little community; it was part of what was known as the Penney Addition. There was an old Colonel [Joseph] Penney, a Colonel in the Civil War, who bought up a great deal of property, and it would all have been south of Wealthy and about from Jefferson up to Morris, or College, along in there. This was known as the Penney Addition. Colonel Penney lived on the corner of Lafayette and Wealthy. He was very proud of the children. He would always talk about the wonderful children in the Penney Addition. Very few people in that neighborhood had horses. The street cars went down Wealthy. There was the Wealthy-Taylor Line, and the Wealthy-Scribner Line, and they both went down Wealthy. If you didn’t walk, which most people did, you took the street car, and then you would have to transfer frequently, but both these street cars, or both these lines, went down to Monroe Street, which was where everybody headed for shopping. But, I really can’t remember anybody in that block that owned horses. The kids had a lot of pets. We had a goat, which we had a little vehicle, known as a “do-se-do”, which we harnessed the goat to, and rode around. Everything was fine until the goat ate the neighbor’s laundry (the wash that was out one day), so unfortunately we then had to give up Billy, the goat. But, everybody of course had dogs, and everybody had a lovely garden. The lots happened to be quite deep on that street, and there were beautiful gardens in the back, and some at the side. Interviewer: Do you think the close-knit fabric in that neighborhood was due to its being somewhat isolated? Miss Bender: Somewhat, yes, I think so. I think of Madison Avenue, which was more of a through street, more built up further to the south than this little block of Terrace Ave. was. Although they were friendly, I think for one thing this was a rather narrow street, the street itself was fairly narrow. I do think that had something to do with it. It was a block that people wanted to live in. I remember the [J. Boyd] Pantlinds. I suppose they built the house which actually was the one I was born in. The Pantlinds moved up on College at that time, and so my parents bought that house. That one was little, not quite as large, I guess, as the one we lived in for probably ten or twelve more years after I was born, and then we moved next door. But, people were always wanting to move into that neighborhood. It was very closely knit. Interviewer: What business was your father in? �3 Miss Bender: Well, at that time my father was a court stenographer. He came here from Batavia, New York. Interviewer: Excuse me, what county is Batavia in? Miss Bender: Very near Buffalo, Genesee County, New York. He went to work when he was fourteen years old, I know, and he went to Buffalo to work. He worked in a place where they had just invented the typewriter. At this time, he was a boy, probably around fifteen or sixteen along there some place, and he was put in the window. He always told this story, about how he was put in the window of this store where they had this strange thing known as a typewriter, and he was made to work the typewriter in the window. Of course he didn’t know one key from the other, but it didn’t make any difference what he wrote. Large crowds of people would gather, and he would get in more flourishes as time went on, he said, pounding the keys. That got him into this kind of business because, of course, shorthand had been invented. There was an opening here. There was a Mr. [Melbourne H.] Ford who had a stenography and shorthand office, and he [Mr. Ford] went into Congress. Interviewer: Went into Congress? Miss Bender: It made an opening. He wanted someone to come into the office. In some way, I don’t know, my father heard about it and so he came out here. That was about 1883 or 1884, or somewhere around there [Ford served in Congress 1885-1886] Interviewer: Down at the library when reading some of those old history books of Grand Rapids, where they would give profiles, autobiographical profiles on some of these old people, I noticed that a considerable number of them came New York, and particularly out of Otsego County, New York. I was just wondering whether you know why so many of these people came from New York. Miss Bender: One thing, of course, that brought a great many people to this part of the country was the Erie Canal. Because, they could put their household goods on barges and go down the Erie Canal. Of course they would go into Ohio, not coming directly to Michigan, but then they came up from Ohio. I can remember quite a few old pieces of furniture in my friends’ houses and they would say this came with my grandfather on the Erie Canal. I think this opened up a great deal of migration from New York State. My father didn’t happen to come that way, but I can remember a lot of people that said that their ancestors, their grandparents usually, had come that way. Interviewer: What did your father do then? Miss Bender: He established an office here and was a court stenographer. He had an interesting time because the judges would go all around in Michigan on their circuits holding court, and my father would go along with them, and many of them became his very close friends and many of �4 the leading lawyers did, for that reason, because they would go, too. He would usually go Monday morning and he’d be gone all week. Newaygo was one place he went where they held court, then he’d go as far as, well, I know he went to Marquette a great deal. He learned a great deal of law that way. Eventually he became a banker. He went into what was known then as the Grand Rapids National Bank. They were the ones who built the McKay Towers. It was during the time my father was in the bank they built the McKay Towers, which it’s now called. But it was always called the Grand Rapids National Bank Building Interviewer: So, it was a bank building at one time? Miss Bender: Oh yes, it was built as a bank. It was tall and very exciting. Interviewer: Would you tell me the story again about when you father was on the Police and Fire Commission? Miss Bender: Well, that was part of the city government at that time, and it was very much coveted thing to be on the Police and Fire Commission. He was an ardent Democrat, when there were practically no Democrats to be found in the state of Michigan, but he was one of them. It was, probably, a Democrat mayor who appointed him. I think, he was appointed during the nineties [1890’s]. At one time very early in his career as a commissioner, they had an unfortunate thing happen, in which the fire department, which of course was horse-drawn at that time, was called to a fire along someplace on Monroe Street. At that time the Salvation Army held nightly meetings down on Campau Square. The Salvation Army was down there tooting away on their horns and holding their meeting and all of a sudden the fire department came tearing down what was known as Canal Street the (later know as Lower Monroe) and turned the corner. The man that was driving the horses saw that if he kept in the street, he would simply run right over the Salvation Army, so he went up onto the sidewalk which was against all the rules, and bypassed the Salvation Army and got to the fire. In 1936, our house burned, and we were living on College at that time. My father had died the spring before and we had this very bad fire. They did heroic work in saving what they could. Well, my mother was very grateful and so she called the chief of the fire department and he [the Chief] said, “Oh, Mrs. Bender. I’ve been waiting for many, many years to repay an old debt.” Then he told her what had happened the time that my father had sponsored his cause and pleaded his cause with the department. He had been discharged for doing this awful thing. My father pleaded his cause so enthusiastically that the man was reinstated, but a fine had to be paid, and I believe he said that my father went so far as to pay the fine for him. So he said, “It’s been many, many years, probably forty or more,” and he said, “I’ve just waited to repay that debt, and I’m glad I could have done what I did.” Interviewer: The Fire Chief was the one who ran the horses up on the sidewalk? Miss Bender: Yes. He said he was a young man at that point, of course. He was reinstated because of my father’s eloquent pleas, and he advanced so that at the time of the fire in 1936, he was the chief of the fire department. �5 Interviewer: You mentioned taking the streetcar downtown, what did people go downtown for mainly? Miss Bender: I can remember that it seems to me we made a daily trip downtown. There were things to be bought at the dry goods stores. There was a good deal of personal shopping to do that went on then, and I think also it was kind of exciting to go down and see what was going on. There was a dry goods store, which is now out of existence, which was called Friedman-Spring, which was down on Campau Square about where one of the 5 & 10 stores is now, Grants or along in there. It was a very good store. In the store they of course had all kinds of departments. The people were in them, year after year, and they grew old clerking in these stores. We used to go to that one a great deal. Then the Boston store was right next door to it. That was run by a Mr. [Charles] Trankla and owned by him. That was also a very good department store. Then there was Steketee’s, which was where it is now. There was Wurzburg’s, which was on lower Monroe. Well, it’s all been torn down now, it was down by Crescent on Lower Monroe. Then [here was] Herpolsheimers which was where Wurzburg’s downtown store is now. Those were the main department stores. Then there was a wonderful candy store named Miss Peale’s and it was run by Miss Peale and, I think, her sister. That would have been up a little east of Ionia on the south side of Monroe. I know she was open on Sundays because the Post Office was open on Sunday. If you wanted to go and walk to the post office and get your mail, which my father did every Sunday after church, and a great many other people did, you would walk down to the post office and then you would stop at Miss Peale’s and buy a box of candy. There was a wonderful chocolate candy called Allegrete. I can remember this was the great treat of the week when we would, after getting the mail at the post office, stop at Miss Peale’s and buy the pound box of Allegrete chocolates. Interviewer: Where was the post office located? Miss Bender: The post office was located where the Federal building still is on the corner of Pearl and Ionia. Of course, at that time it was not what the present building is. It was a smaller building. I know that the present building was built around 1908 or 1910, along in there. But, it was in that same location. There was another very interesting place that was along there on Ionia, where the Shepard garage used to be. It was called Lockerby’s Hall. I think the hall was on the second floor. A great many things were held there. Among other things, I can remember my parents telling me they learned to bicycle there. They had an indoor bicycling rink. This is where they went because, of course, bicycling was very popular around the nineties and around the turn of the century. My father apparently, made one trip around and ran into the wall, breaking the bicycle. That was the end of bicycling with him. But there was a great deal of bicycling that went on. I can remember this Lockerby’s Hall. Then there was Power’s Theatre where the Midtown is now, in the same building really. That was where the legitimates came. Grand Rapids was a great theatre place, one reason being that we were midway between Detroit and Chicago. They would do a “split” week. They would usually stop in Jackson for part of the week and do the rest of the week here in Grand Rapids. Companies that played in Detroit and were going to play long �6 engagements in these places, they were going to Chicago, so then they would stop off here. We had the great stars, they all came here. I think one reason is they liked it a lot here because by this time what used to be called Sweet’s Hotel had turned into the Pantlind and Mr. Boyd Pantlind, who was a most delightful, genial person, was the proprietor of it. He became great friends of all these leading actors. I think they would sort of arrange it to be sure they came to Grand Rapids. I had a lovely collection of autographed photographs that these men had given Mr. Pantlind over the years—Crane, Joe Jefferson, and all those great old actors. Mrs. Pantlind gave it to me after Mr. Pantlind had died. She gave me the collection of photographs. I gave them to the Civic Theatre, and just where they are now, I don’t know. I am sure that [Mr. Pantlind’s friendship] was one reason we got wonderful plays here. Of course, it was geographically important too, their stopping here. I’m sure. Now, then, over here on Reed Drive there was Ramona. Now whether that was really going on at the turn of the century, I don’t know; but very soon afterwards, certainly. The Pavilion, which was on the corner of Wealthy and Lakeside, was owned by the Street Railway Company, and they had wonderful vaudeville here, all the big vaudeville acts were here. I’ve always heard one reason why they also wanted to come here was because, on the south side of Reed’s Lake, there was a little resort thing called Point Paulo. I don’t know who ran it, maybe Mr. Paulo for all I know. Anyway, he had a series of cottages and this was a wonderful place for them to come and stay for a week. They always stayed for a whole week. They could be out on the Lake during the daytime, fishing and all. (Pause in tape) Interviewer: Did you ever come up to the vaudeville shows? Miss Bender: Every week. The Pavilion was a very pleasant place. I know they had boxes along both sides, with rattan chairs in them that were very comfortable and loungy, in the main part. I don’t remember that there was a balcony. There may have been, but [this was] the main part of the auditorium. All around it was all open and there were little soft drink places and that sort of thing along the outside beyond the auditorium part. But it was a most pleasant place to spend an evening and also see very good vaudeville. That was all part of Ramona, which was an amusement park with roller coasters and Tunnels of Love and that sort of thing. [To go] back you took the Wealthy-Taylor Line. That was the only thing that came out to it. It was very well patronized, [and] went for many, many years. Interviewer: Were there very many people living out in this area at the time? Miss Bender: No, all of Reed’s Lake, where these lovely homes are around the outside of the lake now, had a lot of cottages, but they would be just little (quite flimsy, I suppose) cottages that people came to in the summertime, some place to go weekends. There were no permanent homes at that time. Of course, East Grand Rapids was, I guess, non-existent. There were two things, there was the O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club, which I think was called the Lake Side Club to begin with, and that was over here on the shores of Reed’s Lake. That was a very popular club. They had a �7 very good orchestra and excellent food. There was a good deal of boating went on. Speaking of boating, most of the boating on Reed’s Lake, aside of the fishing and that sort of thing, were these two steamers. One was the” Major Watson” and the other was the “Hazel A. Major [Amasa B.] Watson” was a prominent Civil War veteran here and he lived in a big house down where Jacobsen’s downtown place is now. The “Hazel A.” was named for Hazel Amberg. They were a very prominent family here. Those two boats plied around Reed’s Lake, all day long, I guess. There was a big kind of banner along the side that said, “AS LONG AS YOU LIKE FOR TEN CENTS.” So you could get on in the morning and keep going. Over at what is still called Manhattan Road there was a (?) My grandmother used to take my brother and myself out on the Wealthy-Taylor streetcar. She loved the water and she loved these trips. So, I think we’d go and spend the whole afternoon. There was a captain, the so-called captain of one of them, an old character That was around here. He was always known as “Mr. Poison.” His name was spelled P-o-i-s-s-o-n. My grandmother was Southern and so we would come home and my father would say, “Mother, what did you today?” She’d say, Oh, I took the children for a lovely ride with Captain Poisson.” My father would say, “Do you mean “Old Poison?” This would go on every time we made the trip, “Old Poison” to my father but “Captain Poisson” [John H. Poisson] to my mother. Then of course there was Rose’s, which still is in existence. Old Mr. Rose taught swimming. He had a dock. It was kind of a catwalk that went out from the shore and this rather long dock. His method of teaching swimming was to put a belt around your middle and a rope from the back part of the belt. He would hang on to that, and then you would float like a minnow on the water and he would count. I can hear him now; he would say, “One, two, three, one, two, three.” This was how you would learn to do the breast stroke for Mr. Rose. That was also where the skating was in the winter. Rose’s had this building. You would go in there to change your skates. In there, there was an old pot- belly stove. Then you would go down a kind of little gangplank that you went down, a little wooden thing. I suppose it was Rose’s who cleared the skating rink, because I am sure nobody else did. But, that was where we skated in the winter. (Pause in tape) Miss Bender: Do you want me to start over again? Interviewer: Sure, if you want to. Miss Bender: Well you were asking me about some old furniture I have here. It came mostly from my grandmother who was a Southerner. She and my grandfather were married during the Civil War. She was actually put through the lines, war lines were very loose, I guess, during the Civil War. He was a Confederate. She, in some way, was given a pass to go through the lines, because the part of North Carolina she was living in was occupied by Northern troops. They were married. Then after the war, this was in a place called Edenton, North Carolina, which was on the sea coast, my grandfather [Theodore J. Knapp] came back there and had a parish there. This probably was the late seventies, around seventy-five or eighty maybe. At that time oil was discovered in Pennsylvania, so he went there as a minister to all of these mushroom towns that �8 sprang up as a result. He was there for quite a number of years, about four or five maybe. Then the men who had gone in to the oil rush lost interest, and I think the oil business sort of gave out. Just at this time, gold and silver were discovered in Colorado. So, all these men he had ministered to began writing him from Colorado and telling him how he was needed out there; and I’m sure he had an “itching” for it. So he “felt the call” to go. He went down the Ohio River and then down [sic] the Mississippi to St. Louis and over land from St. Louis eventually to Denver. I have all the letters which he wrote my grandmother, who was left back in Pennsylvania with the four children and practically nothing to live on, as far as I could make out. He was a very brilliant person. All these letters were very encouraging to Granny that at any moment then he would get a real parish. At this point he was a Baptist, and “Brother This” and “Brother That,” as they seemed to be called in these parishes, were always about to get a great plan for him; but this took quite a while. He adored Colorado, absolutely fascinated by it. This was Denver in the very early days, with Indians riding through the streets and the streets were just little tracks, really. He talked about how dirty and dusty it was. Finally he did get a parish and Granny and the children went from Pennsylvania out there. I can remember one of the letters said, “Don’t bring a lot of kitchen equipment and things like that but remember all the theological books.” Granny, equipped with four children and the furniture she wanted to keep that had come from her family, went out there. He then became an Episcopalian minister and took the examination and was duly ordained as an Episcopalian minister. He got a parish in a place called Ouray which is way up there. Fascinating place; there were marvelous mines at that point around there. So, they went up there. He built a little church. During his ministry they had no church. He got this church built during the time he was minister there. My mother and father and I went back there one time, and here was this cute little stone church that they said my grandfather had been instrumental in having built. It just happened that they had a service on the Sunday we were there, and we asked if there was anybody who would have known my grandfather. They said there was one man left. It was a ghost town when we were out there, just nothing. But there was this one man, a Mr. Simpson, who was a surveyor. My grandfather used to go out on these trips with him (?). “Well, I guess the only reason that I stayed was I was too lazy to get out, and I loved the country.” So he stayed all these years there. This was in the twenties. He said, “I’ve got a little present I want to give Sally (Sally [Knapp] was my mother’s name) and another for Josephine.” So he gave me some uncut garnets which I thought were very precious, quite a handful of them. Then he said to my mother, I want to give you this stone.” Madame Curie at that point was working on uranium. He had had a meeting with her in Denver when she came to this country. We took our treasures away and I put mine in a safety deposit box because I thought they were so valuable. When the atomic bomb took place, uranium was all over the front pages. I read my mother this article from the New York Times all about it, and it told about the few deposits that there were in this country and that one of them was very near Ouray. My mother said, “Well, I must get my uranium out.” I thought, oh heavens, what’s she talking about? So I said, “Now mother, I’m going to read this article all over to you again and explain it once more She said, “I understand. You know Mr. Simpson gave me a piece of uranium.” So she went into desk, and done up in a piece of Kleenex �9 was this piece of uranium, which then became very important in Grand Rapids. It was shown in the museum and all kinds of places. Interviewer: In the summertime, some people came out to Reed’s Lake. Where did the other people go; where did they spend their summers? Miss Bender: A lot of people had cottages on Lake Michigan, even then. There was an interurban line that went to Grand Haven and also to Muskegon. I can remember going down to visit people who had places on Lake Michigan on the interurban. Then there was a train that went to Ottawa Beach and a great many people had cottages at Ottawa Beach. This train used to come up in the morning and go down at night. It was a kind of dummy line. I know we had a place down at Ottawa Beach for quite a number of summers. The men used to go up on the train in the morning and come down at night. I think that to all these small lakes around here all up through northern Michigan the G.R.& I. (Grand Rapids and Indiana Railroad) was the railroad that went up there; and also the Pere Marquette. We were a number of summers in Charlevoix and I can remember going up, that was on the Pere Marquette, but the G.R.& I. also went up north. Those were the days when it was fun to go on a train, you know, the parlor cars and the dining cars. I think there was quite a lot of activity on the Grand River. The “Boat and Canoe” is still in existence, I guess, isn’t it? Interviewer: I think it’s the American Legion Club, isn’t it? Miss Bender: Yes, I guess it is. That was a very popular club for a long time. It was known as the Boat and Canoe Club. Exactly when that was I don’t know. That must have been soon after 1900, along in there. They had very good tennis courts, they used to have tennis tournaments, State and Western Michigan. Then there was a great deal of boating, canoeing. Quite a number of people had house-boats out there. They would live on the houseboats, and be kind of hooked up at the dock of the Boat and Canoe Club. Of course there use to be steamers that went down the Grand River to Grand Haven. I think they have one now that is a sort of excursion boat. Interviewer: What kind of steamers were they, were they paddle wheel boats? Miss Bender: I think so, I don’t remember going on them. People also had places on the [river]. The Kelsey family had one of those houses down in Eastmanville. We use to go down there a good deal with them. That was a matter of going on the interurban to what is called Marne now. It was called Berlin until the First World War, then you couldn’t call anything Berlin, so the name was then changed to Marne. I remember they use to come over; they would come over there and get us and drive us back. There was quite a number of people, the Hefferan family here had several houses along there. The Foote family had houses along there. They were all old houses that they fixed up or converted somewhat—lovely old houses. Interviewer: Are any of those old houses still standing? �10 Miss Bender: Oh, yes they all are. I think they’re all still there. They were beautifully located. But at that time you didn’t have to do much, except to be in one place. I can remember they had sheep, and Ann Kelseyhas a little lamb that really followed you. Well, it was exciting enough to go and give the lamb a bath in the Grand River. That was really all the excitement you needed. There was a good deal of card playing as part of the entertainment here. There were a lot of Whist Clubs. This was before the days of Bridge Auction Bridge. But there was a great deal of whist and a great deal of Euchre. There was a thing called Military Euchre where you advance from one table to another with a flag in your hand. I remember my parents belonged to it, the Military Euchre Club. That was a great deal of the entertainment in those days where the various card clubs were. Interviewer: What other clubs were there? Miss Bender: What developed into the Kent County Country Club was first, where the clubhouse is, the M.R. Bissell, the present M.R. Bissell, house on the corner of Plymouth and Wealthy, on the northeast of Plymouth and Wealthy. And then the golf course was where Blodgett Hospital is. They had a nine hold golf course. This was one of the very early golf courses in this country. There were a few men here, one being Mr. Edward Lowe, who was an Englishman, He had known golf in England--Scotland I suppose. There a few men who had heard about golf, mostly in England, I think. So, they started this club. The clubhouse was really the present M.R. Bissell house, and then the golf course was across the street of Wealthy where Blodgett Hospital and all that area in around 1899 or there abouts, what was called Sweet Farm, out where Kent Country Club is now, was nothing but a farm house and wheat fields and grazing ground and all that. It went along Knapp Avenue and Plainfield, about the area it has now. They established this club and a very good golf course [with an] architect lay-out and the club was started. After that the next club was Highlands Country Club which is the Elks Club over on West Leonard. That was the next one, and then I think Cascade was the one after that. Interviewer: Were there quite a few social functions held at these country clubs or was it just golf? Miss Bender: Oh no, it was very social. They were very fortunate at Kent Country Club. Very early they got this couple, Ida, who was the cook, and Walter, her husband, who was the general other factotum. She had been a cook as a very young person, who still was very young, with the Wanty family, the Judge [George P]. Wanty family. Then, they wanted a couple out to run the club, so Ida and Walter took the job. They were simply wonderful because she didn’t know too, too much about cooking to begin with but she was one to never say she didn’t know how to do anything. There were a certain number of women, Mrs. Clay Hollister, Mrs. Dudley Waters, and my mother, and they said their husbands were all officers and directors of the Club and they were anxious to have everything go well. So they said, “Now Ida, we will always give you a hand and help you with everything you want. I always remember the time when Mrs. John Blodgett was giving a very elegant luncheon for somebody from away, that was going to be here. �11 Ida called my mother up and said “Mrs. Bender, Mrs. Blodgett is having a luncheon on Thursday.” My mother said, “Yes, I know.” She said, “She asked me to have soft-shelled crabs.” She said, “I never even seen one, but,” she said, I wouldn’t say I didn’t know how to fix them.”So I [sic] said, “Oh yes indeed, they will have to have soft-shelled crabs”. So, she said, “What do I do?”Then mother said, “Ida, you get the soft-shelled crabs from Dettenthalers, (which was the great fish market down on (117) Monroe Street) and be sure they’re crawling and I’ll take the streetcar out and show you how to fix them”. Ida said, “Are you going to the luncheon?” “Oh yes,” my mother said. “I’m going to the luncheon, but I’ll come out in the morning”. Well, going on the streetcar from where we were living at that point, on Terrace Avenue, consisted of going on the Wealthy-Taylor Line then transferring to the Plainfield Line, then transferring to a funny little thing called Carrier Line, which went from Plainfield Avenue up to College and out College to the Country Club, and then turned around and went back. So my mother, nothing daunting, and I know this trip used to take at least three-quarters of an hour (we always allowed three-quarters of an hour), went out to show Ida how to fix the soft-shelled crabs. She took the street car back, then took the hack, which was the means of conveyance when you were going elegantly to something. So, she ordered the hack and the hack came and took her out to the luncheon, where she ate the soft-shelled crabs. But it was a wonderful club, it had a wonderful spirit because everybody was enthusiastic and wanted it to go well. I have a lot of pictures of it of those early days. You can’t believe it now, it looks like a park, you know, in comparison on to this, what was really just fields. Trees were planted but they were little things. But they had a terribly good time and awfully, awfully good spirit and lots of parties. Interviewer: It sounds like living in those days was a very pleasant, relaxed way of living. What happened to that society, that style of living when the depression came along? Miss Bender: Well, when the depression came along, life had become much more sophisticated then it was. I have been talking more or less about things of the turn of the century. When the Depression came along we, after all, had been through one war. That put an entirely different light on everything, the First World War. Everybody pitched into war work, and things were certainly never the same after that. Then came the twenties, which were absolutely wild. I was young at that point, and was probably in on what it did to young people and the way it changed their way of living. I mean, I had been utterly unsophisticated before the twenties. Prohibition had a great effect because, you know, whereas you hadn’t had very many drinks up to that point, then it became exciting to do it. You would go to New York and you’d go to speakeasies and it was all a completely different kind of thing. Then of course, the Depression came along. Really the depression, as I look back on it, crept up on you very slowly. Now I wonder if, you know, if it’s creeping up on us now the way it did then. After all, the crash came in ’29, but it was several years before the banks were closed. That in itself took quite a while. The impact of it took quite a while because you really didn’t realize it. I can remember my father was the type of person who never had five dollars on his person, and although he was a banker, at the moment he didn’t seem to have any money on him. So I remember, he said to my mother, “Now Sally, you’re the kind �12 that would have about one hundred in cash in your safety deposit box.” My mother wouldn’t admit it for a while, but finally she said, “Well yes, I have put a little cash in my safety deposit box.” So, I remember we all lived off her for quite a while. You couldn’t believe it, really when it finally happened. Then, of course, with Roosevelt giving everybody a great deal of hope, really kind of pulling you out of it. To me it was more the twenties. (Pause in tape) Interviewer: You have marked the end of one social era, so to speak, not the depression, but the First World War. Why do you think it had such a dramatic effect on people? Miss Bender: Well, because for one thing it had been such an easy life. I can remember Mr. [Samuel A. Morman saying to my father, during my father’s last illness, he said, “You know, Bender, any man that had half a brain and any kind of ambition could have been successful during our era.” This was true. During the nineties and up to 1914 or 1916, any man who was willing to work, where in many times since then I’m sure it hasn’t stood people in good stead. You had certain principles that you lived by, and if you lived by them, why, you came out all right. And it wasn’t easy at times, as we look back on it now. I mean, people didn’t have a great deal of money most of them. But, on what they could live comfortably and Grand Rapids was a wonderful community, I think largely because of the Dutch people we have, who were thrifty and saving and law-abiding. So everything was going along better and better and better. Then we were certainly influenced by the war in Europe before we got into it. But then once we were in it, everybody was Red Crossing, in the YMCA, Liberty Bonds were being sold, and rallies were being held. As I recall, there was very little social life, because everybody was throwing themselves {sic} into the war effort. And for one thing, I guess you were kind of tired when they came. So that was the thing that was a turning point. Then when the war was over, certainly beginning around 1920, everything went sort of, kind of, wild. You know, it was a reaction for one thing. Of course, then suddenly there was much more money because there hadn’t been a great deal of production of anything but war stuff during the war. Then suddenly everybody was getting all kinds of things. I’m sure it was when we all had our first washing machine and mangle. I don’t think, well, I know we didn’t have an electric refrigerator at that point. But you were buying a good many more things like that. There was a great deal of travel then, too. People were always going places. You were not able to go to Europe for quite a while. There was a great deal of European travel at that time. That made a difference. Planes didn’t come along, of course, until later, but the trains were excellent. You could go any place and really in great comfort and luxury and all. Then of course automobiles, many people got their first automobiles along in that period. That made a lot of difference. Interviewer: Things were not the same after the war? Miss Bender: No. I’m sure the automobile, of course, had an awful lot to do with it. You didn’t live in these little neighborhood communities which were very pleasant and completely �13 satisfying before that. But when the automobile came along, then you were dashing off to New York and then dashing off to Chicago, and dashing off to Lake Michigan. If you were real courageous, you took a trip East. You know, it took you away, then from the local center. Interviewer: I think that’s a good point [on which] to end. INDEX B Bender, Charles H. (Father) · 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12 Bender, Sally Knapp (Mother) · 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12 Bissell, M.R. · 10 Blodgett, Mrs. John · 10 Boat and Canoe Club · 9 K Kelsey Family · 9 Kelsey, Ann · 10 Kent County Country Club · 10 Knapp, Grandmother · 8 Knapp, Theodore J. (Grandfather) · 3, 7, 8 Kos’s Grocery Store · 1 C Curie, Marie · 8 D L Leonards Family · 1 Lockerby’s Hall · 5 Lowe, Edward · 10 Dettenthalers · 11 M F Foote Family · 9 Ford, Melbourne H. · 3 Foster Stevens & Company · 1 Friedman-Spring Dry Goods Store · 5 G Grand Rapids National Bank · 4 H Hazel A Steamer · 7 Hefferan Family · 9 Herpolsheimers · 5 Highlands Country Club · 10 Hollister, Mrs. Clay · 10 Major Watson Steamer · 7 Military Euchre Club · 10 O Ottawa Beach · 9 O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club · 6 P Pantlind, Boyd · 6 Pantlind, Mrs. · 6 Pantlinds Family · 2 Peale, Miss · 5 Penney, Colonel Joseph · 2 Point Paulo · 6 Poisson, Captain · 7 Prohibition · 11 �14 R T Randall, Rev. John Herman · 1 Reed’s Lake · 6, 9 Rose, Mr. · 7 The Police and Fire Commission · 4 The Salvation Army · 4 Trankla, Charles · 5 S W S.A. Morman & Company · 1 Simpson, Mr. · 8 Steketee’s · 5 Street Railway Company · 6 Wanty Family · 10 Waters, Mrs. Dudley · 10 Wilder Stevens Family · 1 Wurzburg’s · 5 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6186bdf5047707329090825cecda8092.mp3 48ccb5bdc64bb5637eb301ee176018c7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_1-2Bender Title A name given to the resource Bender, Josephine Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bender, Josephine Description An account of the resource Josephine Bender was born on April 17, 1894 in Grand Rapids. She graduated from Vassar College and was a member of the Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club. She died on March 26, 1996. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/128a73014e7dc2064f78d7b188077d64.pdf 80aa0821e5cf63474bb4cc5f4cd6cac1 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 M.R. Bissell Interviewed on Sept. 16, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #9 and 10: (43:22) Biographical Information Melville R. Bissell, Jr. was born in Grand Rapids on 7 April 1882. He was married on 29 April 1907 to Olive E. Bulkeley in Grand Rapids. Olive was the daughter of William F. Bulkeley and Abby A. Marks natives of New York. She died on 6 August 1964 at the Bissell home at 350 Plymouth SE. Melville died on 20 December 1972 in Grand Rapids and is buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. Melville and Olive had three daughters, Barbara, Anne and Eleanor. His father, Melville R. Bissell, Sr. was born 25 September 1843 in Hartwick, Otsego County, New York and died 15 March 1889 in Grand Rapids. He married Anna Sutherland on 29 November 1865 in De Pere, Wisconsin where Anna’s parents had moved to from Nova Scotia. Anna was born 2 December 1846 in River John, Pictou County, Nova Scotia, the daughter of William and Eleanor Sutherland. She passed away on 8 November 1934 at her home at 112 College Avenue SE, Grand Rapids. Besides Melville R., Jr., the Bissell’s were parents to Dorothy A., Harvey S., Irving J. and a daughter, Lillie May who died at the age of seven years. ___________ Interviewer: Mr. Bissell, where did your family live in Grand Rapids? Bissell: Originally they lived down on Sheldon Street, eighty-five Sheldon. That was the Bissell home at that time. I was about, oh, seven years of age at that time, but I can remember it. Interviewer: Where is eighty-five Sheldon, approximately; is the house still standing? Bissell: The house is still standing. I can't tell you exactly where the streets are 'cause I don't remember. Well I'll tell you, it is pretty near where, you know where the hotel is now, the hotel on, the corner on one of those streets? I'd say it’s in the next block above the Woman's City Club. Interviewer: Oh, I see. Bissell: That's where it was. We lived there until I was about seven years of age. It was in eighty-nine or eighty-seven my father bought the house up on College Avenue; and it was fixed up and we lived [in it] from then on. My father had caught cold and died of pneumonia at that time, so he never lived up on College Avenue; he always lived on Sheldon Street. Interviewer: Was your father born in Grand Rapids? �2 Bissell: No; no he moved here. He moved here from Kalamazoo - mother and father and grandfather moved up here. And the old house that they lived in was here for a good many years; and now, of course, it’s got a building on it, [?across from?] St. Mark's Church. You know where St. Mark's Church is? Well, it’s on that corner there; that was the old house that I remember my grandmother and grandfather lived there; and we used to go there and see them. Before that, that house was where the Post Office was. They moved that house out from the Post Office site to build the Post Office down there - the old Post Office. You know where that is. The house was originally built there. Interviewer: How did your family get into the carpet sweeper business? Bissell: Well, that's very simple; my father was in the business of china - had a china shop. When they opened up the stuff there was a great deal of, you know, rubbish along with the china, from the unpacking and all like that. He wanted to clean it up and he tried to get a box and a brush that would do it. And that's the way he got started. It really started as a bare floor proposition, but it didn't work so well on the bare floor as it did on the carpet. So, he started making carpet sweepers. He kept right on and my mother worked right along with him and they worked it out together. Interviewer: When your father died, did your mother take over the business? Bissell: Yes, she was always a business woman. Even in a lot of years when I was a young boy growing up, she was interested in her children but she didn't want to take care of them. She had someone take care of us and she did the business, she ran the sweeper company. Interviewer: How long did she run that business? Bissell: She ran it until I came along and took over. Interviewer: When was that, sir? Bissell: Oh, let's see; when did I start? I don't remember - a long time ago. Interviewer: How old are you now? Bissell: I'm nearly ninety. Interviewer: When you lived on College Avenue, what was it like growing up there as a child? Bissell: Well, it was fine. There was just a few houses, people had barns and had horses in them and coachmen and everything for the horses. Automobiles; I can remember when automobiles first came in. I knew every person that had an automobile at that time, and the make of car he had. When you'd hear a car coming, you'd run out to the street to see it go by. Interviewer: Do you remember the first car you ever saw? �3 Bissell: Well, I think it was Charlie Judd’s; I think that was called the U.S. Long Distance or something like that. I can't remember exactly the name of it. Interviewer: Was it quite a thrill? Bissell: Oh, I'll tell you, cars were scarce, there weren't very many of them. There weren't probably more than three or four cars in Grand Rapids. People tried to make them, you know. They'd take a light carriage and try to put a motor in it, connect it up; that wasn't very satisfactory, though. They had to start and build them up from the beginning to really run. Interviewer: Were there any people manufacturing cars here then? Bissell: Well, Austin was the only car man that was making cars here. They were shipping them in from Detroit and so forth. But, Austin was the only one making them, the Austin, and that was a very good car and it was a large car. We had one and my wife's family had one and they were good cars. But of course it had the Planetary System; they didn't have a gear shift. You know what a Planetary System is? Well, it's a set of gears down under the foot boards of the car that run there; and they throw a lever on, that is sort of like a brake, and they run through that. Interviewer: Why did they call it the Planetary System? Bissell: I don't know. That was the way they did it at that time; that's the only kind of cars that were running at all, didn't have gear systems. Of course, the cars were [had] two sitting in front and then you went around in the back and got in through a door that was about that wide, just big enough to get through, and sat in there and sort of on an angle like this or like that. This was the door here, and they shut this, and then they had another little door that dropped down so you could sit on the door. You could take five people. Interviewer: What was the reaction of horses to the first cars? Bissell: Well, they didn't like them; they didn't like them, I shouldn't say that. They were scared of them, of course they made quite a noise and they were scared of them. The regulations were that if you were in a car coming, you had to slow down for horses; if they shied or showed any scaredness, you had to stop. And, in fact, once in a while you had to get out and lead the horse past the car. Interviewer: What was it like living on College Avenue in those days? I mean, what was the style of living like? Bissell: Well, it was very quiet in there. When we bought this house we even lived in it at that time the house was being fixed up. The house had been there for a long time. It was built, I think, by Foster of Foster and Stevens. [In the 1868 city directory, Wilder D. Foster’s residence was listed as 7 College-av. It was also described as located on the east side of College-av. between Fulton and Rose – Rose being Cherry street at that time.] Originally we lived there in his house. It was built in two sections, the first section had the back that was mostly wood and the next section was a brick section. Mother, when I was a boy about eight or nine years old, �4 ripped off the back and built a section of brick in there for the house. We had one tub, bath tub, that was downstairs and in a little room off the hall and this was where we took our baths and had some kind of a heater in there, run by gas and that would heat up the water for you. We took our Saturday night baths there. Interviewer: Were there many children in the neighborhood when you were growing up? Bissell: Oh yes, quite a lot of them. Fred Pantlind, Ralph Voigt -Ralph Voigt lived directly across the street from us. I knew Ralph Voigt very well. There was a boy who lived in that small brick house right next to or three houses over from the Voigt's. I can't think of his name now, but I used to play with him all the time. And later on when Fred Pantlind was born, they came over and had a house right next to ours. Interviewer: Did the families interact as well as the children? Did the families have activities together? Bissell: Oh yes, my mother was a widow and so she always had somebody with her. She had her sister a great deal with her, her niece and people that lived there with her so as to be with her because she didn't want to live alone. Of course, they did some bossing of the children because we were pretty young at that time. Interviewer: Did your mother attend parties that were given within society? Bissell: Oh, yes, she would go to some of the parties that were given. Of course Kent Country Club was in this house. This is the old club house. Kent Country Club was organized here originally, it was a boat club, and a tennis club, and everything, and finally got into a golf club. I think golf is [an] all the way around game here you know, when I was a boy. Interviewer: Was it a very good course? Bissell: Well, not good in the way the clubs are now, but it was all right. Interviewer: Was golf a relatively new game at that time? Bissell: Very. I'll tell you how golf started here. Mr. Blodgett or somebody went abroad, and saw golf, and bought a set of clubs and brought them back here. Everybody that played golf used that set of clubs. Then of course they had to make more of them and everybody had their own sets. Interviewer: You were just talking about Wealthy Street. Bissell: Wealthy was originally right straight through into Reed's Lake, I mean Fisk Lake. Of course, there wasn't any way for us but to go back that way and go along that [?] road. You know where Mrs. Avery lives out there on Plymouth? [Corner of Plymouth and Lake Drive] Well, that was the toll gate for this district. That was a toll road and that was the road that went out to our farm and to Reed's Lake. And then the [Mr.] Hanchett came along and wanted to get �5 out to Reed's Lake with his cars - streetcars - and so they had to curve around here to get to around the lake. Interviewer: So, instead of Wealthy Street ending up at Fisk Lake, they changed the road so it ended up at Reed's Lake? Bissell: Yes. Of course first it was a dummy line. Then they got the streetcars running out there. Then you’ve got Ramona and all in there. Interviewer: Did you buy this house? Bissell Yes. Interviewer: How long have you lived here? Bissell: About forty years. Interviewer: When you bought this house, was this all developed out here like this? Bissell: It is exactly how it was, and the way this house was. I imagine I'd made some improvements on it. I built that window there. It went right from the post there and right across on the other side of house, I built a porch over there, of course, but as far as the grounds is concerned and the house itself, why it is exactly as it was before. It's a three story house and it was the Kent Country Club. They used to play golf here and they played golf all around here. All these places around here, they played golf on. Interviewer: When you bought this house, did you buy it as a residence, or did you buy it as a farm? Bissell: No, I bought it as a residence. Mr. Hanchett owned it. And he used it as a home and it was originally brick. It was plastered and I think Hanchett took that off and fixed it up. Interviewer: Did Hanchett have his own private streetcar to take him downtown to work in the morning? Bissell: He had a private car that was run on the street here. He used it as, not as just going downtown, but he used it to have parties on. He'd pick you up downtown and take you out to Reed's Lake and they would have a party; and it was an open car and he had a driver and it was run by electricity. The open cars were very nice; I've been on it. He went downtown, down Monroe Street and right down a few times to Ottawa Beach. When they did that, they put one of the drivers on that ran the electrical cars down there, 'cause they knew the route and they wouldn't run too fast and control it. Interviewer: You mentioned that up there at the corner of Plymouth and Lake Drive where Mrs. Avery lives there was a toll road there? �6 Bissell: There was a toll gate there. Interviewer: Where did the toll road go? Bissell: [The road] went right out that street there, you know where the ___ that section of the [?] houses right out that way; that’s where our farm was. That’s where they used to go out, drive out to the farm, out that street. Interviewer: Where was your farm located, Mr. Bissell? Bissell: Right out the street there. Interviewer: Plymouth? Bissell: No, not Plymouth, but . . . Interviewer: Lake Drive? Bissell: ... Lake Drive. It ran right out there on, about three or four miles. Of course, we had to pay toll when we went out on the line. Interviewer: How much was the toll? Bissell: Well, I'll tell you. My father made arrangements with the toll gate; he paid them so much a year and all the Bissell’s who had cottages and could come out there and so there was no toll. I paid no toll. When I was a young boy, I had some fellows I knew and I would take them out in the carriage out to the farm. I'd say: 'Now we're going past the toll gate, now get down there and we'll run it; and they would. I'd whip the horse up a bit and get across fast and run through the toll gate. As long as we could make it, it was all right. There [was] [apparently referring to a map] the hospital property, this property and [?] across the street on both sides. Originally, they cut down this bank over here for Wealthy and they run [sic] it right into the lake. Of course we couldn't have the streetcars go through the lake so they had to curve around right up here [pointing on a map?]. Ben Hanchett was really behind getting that curve in there, because he was running the street railway. Interviewer: When Mr. Hanchett moved out of this house, did he move off of College Avenue? Bissell: He didn't live down there then. He didn't live here until long after that. Interviewer: Long after he'd....[?] Bissell: He didn't live on College Avenue for a long, long time. That was a few years. He had his horses here, and there was a barn there. He had two or three horses and used to ride downtown, and that was the only way to get downtown, at that time, was to ride down in a carriage. When the streetcar was put in, like that, why lots of people would go down on the streetcar. �7 Interviewer: When you were growing up on College Avenue, what did the young people do for entertainment? Bissell: Oh, I don't know, they used to have shows of different kinds. They put on shows down at the opera house. Interviewer: Were there many dances and things like that? Bissell: Oh yes, we had dances and especially at Christmas time when the schools were all out and we were all home. My mother used to have dances for me and my friends and some of the other people did too. We generally had them in the St. Cecilia or the old Armory which is across from the depot. Interviewer: The old railroad station? Bissell: The old railroad station; the depot there. Interviewer: Where did you go away to school? Bissell: I went to the Gunnery first, and that was in Washington, Connecticut. I was there two or three years, and then after that I went to a small school in (Suffern, New York for a few years. And then, later on, I went to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, New York. I didn't graduate from there. Interviewer: You didn't graduate from there? Bissell: No, I just quit; I was there two years. Interviewer: And then you came back to Grand Rapids? Bissell: That's in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Oh! What was the name of the school? Bissell: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Interviewer: What kind of a school was it? Bissell: That was in Troy, New York. It was a technical school and engineering school. They taught engineering and, believe me, you had to have some mathematics to stay in that place. I never had so much mathematics till I got into that. Interviewer: Are you a member of any clubs here in town? �8 Bissell: Oh, several clubs. The Kent Country Club, of course, was started long before I was a member of it, but my mother was a member of it and I had the privilege of using it in her name until I got out of college, and then I became a member of the country club. Interviewer: When did the University Club come into being? Bissell: Oh, quite a long time ago, but not very long ago as far as years are concerned. Interviewer: What about the Peninsular Club? Bissell: The Peninsular Club was going when I got out of high school and that had been going for a long time. I'm number one man down at the Peninsular Club. Interviewer: Now? Bissell: Now. That means that I have lived a great many years, longest of anybody in the club and that I got a membership. I became a member in, I think, about ought-six[1906]. I've continued that membership the longest of anybody in it, so I'm number one man; and my brother was number two man. He died and then Heber Curtis, I think, came in there number three. I don't know what the numbers are now. It makes no difference as far as [?] are concerned, it's just an interesting thing being number one man at the country club or any club. Interviewer: I heard a story about your mother - when she died - her last words. What were her last words? Bissell: I don't know. Interviewer: Someone told me her last words were, “I am glad.” Someone said those were her last words. Bissell: No, I don't know. Now that might have been so, I don't know. Interviewer: When you were running the factory, were the furniture companies going full steam then? Bissell: They were going full steam then. They have let down since then; and there are some manufacturing companies that used to be here. There used to be a lot of them. Huge and small ones, but . ? . Royal and. Berkey and Gay, a . . and, oh, dozens of them. They've all gone. Interviewer: Did many of those men who ran those big manufacturing plants live around you in your neighborhood? Bissell: Oh, they lived all over town. See, then, by that time we had streetcars all over town and they'd go back and forth to the business on the streetcar. Interviewer: Before the streetcars what did they have? �9 Bissell: Oh, they had carriages; and some men, I know one man, he was a lawyer in town, he liked horses and he used to ride horseback down from his house. Of course, then you had horses right in your barn, you see, and he used to ride downtown horseback and then put his horse in the stable down there and then ride back again. Interviewer: Was that a very common practice for men? Bissell: No, no. But he did that for years because he liked horses and he wanted to ride so he did it that way. Interviewer: What was downtown like in those days? Bissell: It was like all the other small towns around here. Monroe Street was the big shopping street and all the stores were down there and the grocery stores and meat markets and a few shops and all the things were down there. A little later on, at the corner down here why they got a few stores in there. Interviewer: Down on Wealthy and Lake Drive? Bissell: Down Wealthy, yeah, and a few on Reed’s Lake. When I was a boy, the city ended at Eastern Avenue. That was the end of the city. It was just country after that and then they kept gradually going out further and further and further and so they got out to Wealthy and whatever that street is down there. Interviewer: Where did you spend your summers? Bissell: I spent my summers right here; and I'd go down to Ottawa Beach for awhile and I used to know pretty near everybody there. I was next door to Charlie Judd's, who was a man with the company. He lived there and had a cottage there; and he had a boat - that was a launch - on Black Lake there. We used to go down there. It was great coming in there in a launch, 'course it was old-fashioned . . . (?)launch which was different from any other different kinds. They weren't very fast but they were quite powerful. We used to ride all over Black Lake there with it. Interviewer: Were steamers coming in there from Chicago? Bissell: Yes, particularly they came in there every Friday night and go back Sunday night. People would come over on that from Chicago and stay here over the weekend and go back Sunday night. Yes, there was a line of steamers going then. Some of them would stop at some of these other places on the way down and pick up a load of fruit or something like that, and carry it over to Chicago. But there was one landing in there pretty near every night. Interviewer: Were there always dams in the Grand River? Can you remember the Grand River ever being without dams? �10 Bissell: No, I think there were quite a number of them. They did a lot of work on it and they tried to running their steamboats up and down carrying freight and all that, and passengers, but they didn't. There wasn't enough to. They were always running ashore, and it wasn't very deep and it wasn't very good. Interviewer: What was the most memorable experience from the time you were growing up? What's the thing you remember most? Bissell: Oh I don't know. I lived here all my life, I was born here and I lived here until I was grown up - in the town. I went to school in the East, and I came back to Grand Rapids and took a job in the company. Besides that I went out in the plant and learned how to make carpet sweepers and do those things and learned all about it and I worked up from the bottom until I finally became president. Interviewer: Do you think there are any differences between the way men conducted their business in those days compared to the way they conduct their businesses today? Bissell: Oh yes, there's a lot of difference. Everything is a lot more technical now. Of course the telephone and telegraph came in, we had them when I was a boy but not as strong as they are now, they weren't as big. They didn't use it as much then. Some men do a big business on the telephone now, on the cable - Western Union. Things are entirely different, everything's more technical. Interviewer: What do you think was the more preferable age to live in, the age when you were a young man or the age today? Bissell: Well, it depends on what you want. Now it's probably very mild compared to what it was then because everything then... [?] For instance, Mr. Hanchett lived out in this house here, ran the street railway and we had the streetcars to go on. I lived on College Avenue before I was married, why I used to walk down Monroe Street, the whole length. I walked down from my house on Washington Street, down to Monroe Street and back - sometimes twice a day, in the morning and the afternoon. Of course they had Power's Theatre and they had shows down there; and companies came in and stayed here and put on a different show every week. There was Reed's Lake with all the amusements in it and it was, well you could hardly get on a streetcar. They would have two or three cars would wait up there, about time the theatre was getting out in the evening, and take the people into town. That was the only way they had getting out there. Of course when the automobile came in, why they could go by a car. Interviewer: Was that when the streetcar started to dissolve, when the automobile came in? Bissell: Well, it didn't progress like it had before, because people had cars. It made a big difference then because if they wanted to go to the lake, why they would go out in their car, and a lot of them did. There weren't as many cars, of course, and the streetcars were crowded coming in at night after the show. People wanted to get home. It'd probably take four or five car loads to take them and get them out of there. It would be jammed full. It was pretty bad sometimes when it rained and then at that time, why there was open cars. They took the closed �11 cars off in the summertime and put on open cars. Those were run across like that [gesture?] and there was a row of people here and have a row in here and another row in here. It was one of our amusements in those days to take a streetcar ride in the evening, in a hot evening, to cool off. We'd go out to North Park and then perhaps stay a little while there, and get a soda water or something like that and get on and come into Grand Rapids again. Interviewer: Was the Grand River used at all in those days for entertainment or for boating events? Bissell: Not very much, not very much. The Grand River wasn't very deep, you know. They had some little boats and there were a few quicker, motor boats. Motors weren't very plentiful in those days. They were noisy and dirty. Interviewer: I think that is good enough, don't you? Bissell: That's about all I can tell you. Interviewer: Okay. INDEX A H Avery, Mrs. · 5, 6 Hanchett, Mr. · 5, 6, 10 B J Bissell, Anna Sutherland (Mother) · 2, 4, 7, 8 Bissell, Melville R. Sr. (Father) · 1, 2, 6 Black Lake · 9 Blodgett, Mr. · 4 Judd, Charlie · 3, 9 C Curtis, Heber · 8 F Fisk Lake · 5 Foster and Stevens Company · 3 G Grand River · 10, 11 K Kent Country Club · 4, 5, 8 O Ottawa Beach · 6, 9 P Pantlind, Fred · 4 Peninsular Club · 8 �12 R V Reed's Lake · 5, 9, 10 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute · 7 Voigt, Ralph · 4 S W Woman's City Club · 1 St. Mark's Church · 2 U University Club · 8 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aa3ac7df7c42608ff7abc5a2f88a111a.mp3 b09e66ac6d8b7a88b524e0593d1cce00 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_9-10Bissell Title A name given to the resource Bissell, M.R. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bissell, M.R. Description An account of the resource M.R. Bissell was born on April 7, 1882 in Grand Rapids. His father (M.R. Sr.) invented the Bissell Carpet Sweeper. The Bissell Carpet Sweeper Company was established in 1883. When Mr. Bissell's father died prematurely, his mother took his place running the business. M. R. Bissell, Jr. attended Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in New York for two years but did not graduate. He returned to Grand Rapids to run the business, and became a member of the Kent Country Club, the Peninsular Club, and the University Club. He died December 20, 1972. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b448313da33b45dd941ed2266b9fea46.pdf a12ed8039e824e6c18b9a0cd660746f4 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Miss Dorothy Blake Interviewed on September 20, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #14 and 15 (47:17) Biographical Information Dorothy Stuart Blake, the daughter of William Frederick Blake and Adeline Louise “Alde” Tuck was born 23 July 1889 in Grand Rapids. She passed away at the age of 88 on 4 September 1977 in Grand Rapids. William F. Blake, the son of Increase Blake and Sarah Farnsworth was born 3 May 1851 in Farmington Falls, Franklin County, Maine. He died at his home at 320 S. College Avenue, Grand Rapids on Christmas Eve 1915 and is buried in the Blake Cemetery in Farmington, Franklin County, Maine. William was in the wholesale grocery business and came to Grand Rapids in 1887. Mr. Blake was married 15 March 1881 in Farmington, Maine to Adeline Louise “Alde” Tuck. Alde was the daughter of Dr. Cyrus Dean Tuck and Adeline Lucy Colby. She was born 8 June 1857 in Falmouth, Cumberland County, Maine and moved with her parents to Farmington, Franklin County before 1870. Her death occurred on 29 April 1925 in Grand Rapids and she is also buried in the Blake Cemetery. ___________ Blake: You probably want a limit on time too, don‟t you for each question, or don‟t you? Interviewer: No just, you just talk as long as you want. Miss Blake, it looks as though you‟re in the process of moving, you are in the process of moving from this house. We‟re at three-twenty College South East. How long have you lived in this house? Blake: I have lived here since eighteen ninety-three. Interviewer: Did your family move here? Blake: My family moved up here from the old Warwick Hotel, which later became the Cody, which was later turned into a parking ramp. Interviewer: Was your family living in the hotel at the time? Blake: Yes, and we moved up here I remember there were only two houses on the whole west side of the street, between College, between Cherry and Wealthy. And one house is what I think was called the, the Waddell house, and later was called the Hudson house, which is still standing, �2 and the other house was a dark red brick with a forbidding looking door that looked like a prison door, and Mr. and Mrs. Shaw lived there. They were old people then, and I don‟t remember of course who built the house, or if it was the Shaws or not, but they were living there, at that time. And all the rest of the block was on the east side was a vacant lot, and a cow pasture and an apple orchard, through which I had to walk to go to school, the old Wealthy Avenue School. Interviewer: Where was the Wealthy Avenue School located? Blake: It was, where it is now, only an older building and the entrance was on Wealthy Street, and now it‟s called the Vandenberg School of course, the Wealthy entrance is on Lafayette. Interviewer: Well, were you a child then, when you moved up, how old? Blake: Oh yeah, I was four years old when we moved up here, so… Interviewer: Did your family build this house? Blake: No, it was about, I think this house had been lived in two and a half years. There was only one family that occupied this house before we moved up, and that was the Brouwer family I think. There were three Brouwer boys I believe, Evert O. Brouwer, and Jack Brouwer, and Otto Brouwer was born in this house. Well, they were renting it from father. Interviewer: Well then, then your father did build the house, but he was rented it from somebody? Blake: He bought it. Interviewer: Oh. Blake: And rented it for a couple of years before we moved up. Interviewer: I see, what kind of business was your father in? Blake: He was in the wholesale grocery business, with teas and coffees, as his specialty, which ultimately turned out to be the manager of the tea department for Judson Grocery Company. Interviewer: Had he been born in Grand Rapids? Blake: He was born in Maine, Farmington Falls, Maine. My mother was born in Farmington, Maine. Interviewer: Did they meet each other in Maine? Blake: They met each other when Mother went to Farmington Falls to teach school, they had never met before, they grew up seven miles apart—just a horse and buggy road between. �3 Interviewer: What a, what was the reason they finally moved to Grand Rapids, your father and mother moved here? Blake: He started West, to be the, now you‟ve got me, on going back that far. This is just what, what I heard from them, of course, that he started West, he was a lawyer, at that time, and he started west to be the corporation lawyer for a mining company in Utah. And when he got to Chicago, he was met by a telegram saying that the mine was flooded, and they have to postpone the working of it for a while. Well, it was postponed forever apparently, so father was stuck in Chicago, and that‟s when he, got a wholesale grocery and teas and coffees to work with a cousin of his, who started him out in Chicago. Then later they moved to Grand Rapids. And he stayed in that business instead of in the law. Interviewer: That‟s interesting. Where was this store located in Grand Rapids? Blake: Oh the Judson Grocery Company, gracious, oh, it was downtown. But on what street I‟ve forgotten. Interviewer: Do you remember going to the grocery store as a child? Blake: Yes, and before that to the Worden Grocery Company, was the first one, and father was one of the organizers of that, and then later he joined the Judson grocery. Interviewer: What was downtown like in those days? Blake: Well, I really don‟t know what you mean by that question. Interviewer: How did if differ from today, for example? Or did it differ at all? Blake: Well, we had streetcars, now we have buses. The streetcars were, ran on an overhead trolley. And some of our, well, I don‟t know about downtown, it had its big department stores, Spring Dry Goods Store was one of the best. It had Herpolsheimer‟s, it had Wurzburg‟s. They were early settlers in this neighborhood, too. Interviewer: What was it like growing up in this neighborhood? Blake: Oh, it was very, it was a very happy life, most of it centered around home, of course, and, well most, most of our fun was right here. We played croquet on the back lawn, we packed up picnics and got on the Cherry-Shawmut Streetcar line and went to John Ball Park for a day‟s outing, that was, that was fun. There were some animals there, but, the zoo was not as large as we have now. But there was, that was one of our joys. And another was, on a hot day, get on the Wealthy-Taylor streetcar, for five cents, and ride from one end of the city to the other, on the car to get cool. And one end was at North Park, and the other end of the line was Reed‟s Lake we called it. And Reed‟s Lake was one of the places where we had lots of good times. There were rides on a steamer for ten cents, rides as long as you chose, stay on all day if you wanted to, and we‟d take picnic lunches with us. And there was a, an excellent vaudeville, high class vaudeville, �4 outdoors in the pavilion there, which was one of the things to do if you wanted recreation. Another thing was to hire a team, there used to be a livery stable down on the corner of LaGrave and Wealthy, and father [would] hire a rig and a couple of horses and we‟d pack up a picnic lunch and we‟d drive to Cascade and Ada, where he had some trade in the general stores there so he‟d combine a little business with a picnic spree for us. Interviewer: What kind of a road went from the city here to Cascade and Ada? Blake: I think, now I‟m not sure, I think it was a gravel road. It might have been just plain dirt road, but I can remember as the gravel road, especially the gravel road to Ada. Interviewer: Well, outside of these little excursions around the city, most of your life did center around the home then. Blake: Oh yes. Interviewer: Can you describe to me what your home life, somewhat, what a…? Blake: Well, when we were very small, mother had help that lived in the house, and, one maid would do the washing, the ironing, the cooking, the cleaning, for her board and room, and a, very small amount per week. And then later, when we grew up and had our own tasks assigned to us for housekeeping, mother hired help by the day, a dollar a day was, was for the price for years. And then outside help would do the washing, the wash bench and two tubs and a wringer, out on a big back porch. And she‟d hang it out and she‟d iron it, and then she‟d come another day to do the cleaning. Well, that isn‟t so very different from what we have now except the washers are all automatic. Interviewer: Were there, did your family have many activities with other families in the neighborhood? Blake: Oh yes, there was a wonderful neighborhood. The houses on the east side where I‟m living were all single family houses, except one, there was one, it was a what did you call it, a double house, upstairs and downstairs there were two families. All the rest were single families. We knew every family on the block. And the whole block, especially the older people, the fathers and mothers would get together and have their parties. And sometimes the children would get together and put on a theatrical performance of their own making, and the parents would turn out and pay a penny a piece or so many pins a piece for the privilege of watching our activities. That was fun, homemade fun. The families they were families that stayed put, at least two generations of the same family would be living in the same houses in here. Interviewer: Why do you think that was? Why did the families, for example, would two generations of a family be the same neighborhood? Why was there that, for what reason was there that stability? �5 Blake: I don‟t know. I suppose because they had lovely houses, good homes, they didn‟t care about going away for very long. Interviewer: What do you think changed all of that? Blake: The automobile, and then later the airplane. The automobile did a lot of changing, for better and for worse, too. Interviewer: Was there a, how would you classify in terms of economic position, the people that lived here on south College compared with for example, the people that lived on Jefferson or up on the Hill. Was there a difference? Blake: I don‟t know that there was any particular difference. Jefferson was an avenue of homes too; some very beautiful homes there. Even Sheldon had some beautiful homes. Some of the political parades used to go down Sheldon. People would sit out on their front porches and watch. Interviewer: You were involved in some women‟s suffrage activities. What exactly was your involvement? When did you first become interested in it? Blake: Oh, I suppose when I was a small child, I was indoctrinated with the idea of women‟s rights, after all, I had three sisters, and we were a woman family. And well as a little girl, I did things like selling suffrage newspapers downtown, either inside or outside the store; it was perfectly safe to be on the streets. And soon as I got out of college, I helped with the nineteen twelve campaign, which was a very lively one; Dr. Wishart was the manager of that. And we had an office downtown, and I had an old typewriter that I took down there and did office work for them. And my younger sisters rode in parades, dressed up in the suffrage colors, and with banners and, and pamphlets decorating the floats. Oh, we did so many things I, I think one of my fondest memories was, the one that will always stay with me, was meeting Susan B. Anthony. She was seventy-nine years old when she came to Grand Rapids. We had the national convention here in Grand Rapids in eighteen ninety-nine, and she came, and Howard Shaw came, a brilliant list of people who were present at that, that convention, that lasted for several days. And mother took me to meet Miss Anthony one afternoon. She was a guest at Mrs. John Blodgett‟s house, which had been torn down now, where the Stuyvesant is now. I can remember my impression of her, it as very sweet, gentle, little, old lady who was courteous and treated me just as if I were important. She was, and she signed my birthday book for me, and put the date in it. That‟s one of my fond memories. The next year she was unable to travel, I believe, and it wasn‟t too long after that than she passed away. Interviewer: Why, why did they hold the national convention in Grand Rapids, was a, how did Grand Rapids happen to be chosen? �6 Blake: Grand Rapids just simply went after it and insisted that they come here, and they said they always met in Washington, D.C. and they fought coming here, but finally, the men were on the job too, there was a very strong men‟s suffrage at work with Dr. Wishart on the job too. Interviewer: Who was Dr. Wishart? Blake: Oh, he was the minister at Fountain Street Baptist church, very prominent man, nationally prominent. And then all of the, the Chamber of Commerce I think they called it then, the Men‟s Chamber of Commerce went after it tooth and nail, they just worked for it, offered lots of things, lots of inducements to the women if they would hold their national convention in Grand Rapids. And they finally won out, they did all sorts of things for them, the St. Cecilia was the auditorium where they held their meetings. The Warwick Hotel was their headquarters, and some of the delegates of course were entertained in private homes. But that was a great feather in the suffrage cap of the nation, because always they had before and after, at least, held their meetings in Washington. Interviewer: Were many women in this neighborhood, in the Hill District, the Hill area, involved with women‟s suffrage at that time? Blake: All of them that I knew were. But I don‟t know that I can name them, but it was a very homogenous neighborhood. Interviewer: Was there any reaction by the men against the, the women‟s demand for rights, equal rights? Blake: Very little, in fact the men did as much for us as we, at that particular convention, as we could. We, both men and women, went all out for that, to bring that convention here to Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Would women in the Hill District that were associated with, what was the name of your group? Did you have a name for your organization or… Blake: Well, there was the National Women‟s Suffrage organization, and then there was the State Women‟s Suffrage organization, and I suppose there was the Grand Rapids Equal Suffrage Club. Interviewer: Would there be meetings held at different women‟s home and one thing or another, did you have regular meetings? Blake: Oh, well, those would just be committee meetings, the, the big meetings were held in halls like St. Cecilia‟s. That was one of the favorite places, the size and the, of course the building itself has wonderful acoustics. Ladies Literary Club was another place where important meetings were held. At that convention, as well as others, the Ladies Literary Club was open too. Interviewer: Did the Ladies Literary Club have a regular clubhouse? �7 Blake: Oh, yes, they, they had their own clubhouse, owned it, one of the first in the country to build and own their own clubhouse. The St. Cecilia was another, it was the first musical organization to build their own clubhouse, and own it. Both those buildings were very much used in that era. Well, they still are. Interviewer: Were they important social organizations? Blake: Yes, they were both leaders in their own field. St. Cecilia in the field of music and the Ladies Literary Club in the well, the field of general culture and literary work particularly. I remember meeting Woodrow Wilson at the Ladies Literary Club. President Taft was there at one time, I think he was the only president who was, [who] came to the Ladies Literary Club, during his presidency. Interviewer: Came here to Grand Rapids? Blake: Yeah. To speak a the Ladies Literary Club, I think that while he was president, I think he‟s the only president who ever did and it was Mrs. McKnight who got him to come. Interviewer: How did she induce him to come? Blake: She could, she could, I don‟t know how to put it, she could induce almost anybody to, to come to Grand Rapids, if she thought it important, Interviewer: Who was Mrs. McKnight? Blake: Oh, well she was President of the Ladies Literary Club, she was one of the organizers and Presidents of the “Alliance Française”, the French Club in Grand Rapids, she was a great authority on are, she was a great traveler, European traveler, visited all the important places in Paris, and came home and gave talks on it. She was one of the, one of the, shall I say social; another adjective would be better, leaders in Grand Rapids, social, educational, and cultural leaders in Grand Rapids. Mrs. William F. McKnight. Interviewer: Was there, what was it what happened when Taft came? Did the city celebrate or put on any big festivities? Blake: There must have been but I don‟t remember. I probably was in school. No, I wouldn‟t have been at school because he came on a Saturday, I remember that much. There probably was a parade, I don‟t remember, that fact I cut out, but I can remember seeing him. Interviewer: What did you do after you got out of college? Did you spend most of your time in suffrage work? Blake: I stayed home that one year, and worked through the campaign of nineteen twelve, but that was the Michigan Campaign, and then after that I taught school. �8 Interviewer: Where did you teach? Blake: I taught in Hesperia for two years; I taught in Lowell for three years; I taught in Union High School, Grand Rapids, for thirty-four years. That was an ideal school to teach in, perfectly delightful. Interviewer: Union, Grand Rapids Union High School? Blake: Yeah. Interviewer: What was considered the, the best high school in the city? Blake: That was. Interviewer: Grand Rapids Union? Blake: And it wasn‟t because I taught there either. It a, we got that said, of course we, we teachers, we had a good, a very good staff there at Union, and we all enjoyed our work and we had good material. Our material was a melting pot; all sorts of nationalities were represented in, in the student body. And the various teachers who did supply work, in all the high schools, there were five high schools before I finished teaching, there was just one when I went to Central High School, but when I, when there were five high schools and supply teachers had experience in each one of those high schools, they said without question that Union High school was the best, or that they enjoyed it the most, put it either way. Interviewer: Central High School was the high school for the Hill District, wasn‟t it? Blake: Yes, and that was the first full high school. That is twelve, had all four high school grades, ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grades. Interviewer: Didn‟t Union? Blake: Union at different times had a different setup, as to grades. Now at one time, while I was teaching, they had everything under one roof at Union, from the kindergarten up through the twelfth grade, and an automobile repair shop, all in the same building. And I think the later years that I was there, they began with the seventh grade, and that‟s what they call junior high, and senior high, seventh, eighth and ninth were junior high: tenth, eleventh, and twelfth were senior high. And of course now they use different names, middle school and so on. But ours were junior and senior high. That was after Union had such a large enrollment that they couldn‟t have the kindergarten grades in there anymore, so they went over to Harrison Park. Interviewer: Did Union at one time serve as I understand it, they had three grades in the High School, and then for the senior year students would transfer to Central. �9 Blake: At one time. That was back before… that lasted up until nineteen six, I believe, when there was just one graduating class in the whole city. And that was from Central. In Nineteen six, I can remember that the tenth graders, the twelfth graders, had to come over from Union and take their work in Central. And after that, they added the twelfth grade to Union. Interviewer: Were you very active in the Ladies Literary Club? Blake: No, in fact I was not a member… Interviewer: Oh, Blake: My mother was very active and she often took me as a guest when she could to the… Interviewer: Is she one of the ones that help found the club? Blake: I don‟t know, I don‟t think so but it must have been pretty nearly as early as that because it wasn‟t a very old club at the time. Interviewer: Why did the, were, well, did women, did a lot of women belong to the Ladies Literary Club? Blake: Oh yes, very, very active club. Interviewer: Why…? Blake: I think it still is. Interviewer: What, for what reason would women become active in that club? Blake: It was the only club of its kind in the city except for the West Side Ladies Literary Club, or the West Side Literary Club, I think that was. And I don‟t know whether the west side club antedates, I don‟t think it antedates the Ladies Literary Club, it may have been a branch, I don‟t know. It may have been a branch of it, but that‟s a very old club too, the West Side Literary Club. But I think the Ladies Literary Club was the first to organize, I think it was unique in the country. Interviewer: What kind of activities would they have at the club? Blake: Well, mostly literary, of course, usually some music on their programs, speakers, the most important speakers from the country that they could get and it depended very largely on the Presidents who was the best getter of speakers from other places. And political interest came in, of course non-partisan, but they were inte…, they were very alive club. Interviewer: Would you say it was the center of cultural activity for women at that time? �10 Blake: I divide honors between that and the St. Cecilia. Of course the St. Cecilia was primarily music, but the two combined made the, quite a strong influence for culture in Grand Rapids. Of course, a great many of the women were members of both, the St. Cecilia and the Ladies Literary Club. Interviewer: I‟m going to turn this tape over, it‟s almost out, and I have just a couple more questions I won‟t be able to get them… [End of side one] Blake: Don‟t know whether he was born in Grand Rapids, but he was a Grand Rapids boy, and we were, we were just devoted to the Library, why we spent a great deal of time there, went to all the library lectures, ever since, in the room the other day with Mr. Collins, I had come in for some other, no I had come in to see him and give him some papers I had, and I looked around and I said, “well, this used to be the lecture room, didn‟t it?” Of course it‟s something else now, but it was the old lecture room; when we went to every lecture there was, I believe, in it. And they had a very lively program, in it, the library. It‟s always been in good hands, the library I could remember that part. Then I, I put down women‟s suffrage because you mentioned that. And then I scribbled down here, I guess how people lived, maybe suggestion. Now, what did we used to like to do when we could do whatever we pleased? And then I thought of the streetcars we had no horse of our own, and of course there weren‟t any automobiles then anyways as far as I know, but we used to like to ride, to ride the streetcars. Cool off on a hot day, you‟d get on an open streetcar. You‟ve seen pictures at least of open streetcars? Interviewer: I‟m not sure. Blake: Well, where the seats go right straight across. You get on from the side, you step on and slide into your seat. They‟re all open, and of course when the cars are going we have a delightful breeze. Made, made to order. You could ride from one end of the city to the other, you see, which meant back from Reed‟s Lake to North Park or the Soldiers Home or a little beyond it, or the pavilion out there at North Park where there is usually music or something going on. But we‟d usually stay on the car, and it would turn around and then come back. We might have had to pay another five cents to get back, but… But anyway, you could ride from one end of the city to the other for five cents. So, I jotted down there, Wealthy- Scribner. And the names amused me too, they did even then, we used to laugh over the names of our streetcars. Wealthy-Scribner, Wealthy-Taylor, Cherry-Shawmut, aren‟t those silly names? But the Wealthy was because it went down the length of Wealthy, Wealthy Avenue, they called it. Now it‟s called Wealthy Street, but it was Wealthy Avenue that, that‟s where the line began. And Scribner was way over on the west side. Well, Scribner Street‟s still there, and Wealthy Street‟s still there, but that was the Wealthy-Scribner line. Well then the Wealthy-Taylor line was the longer still, because that went way out Taylor Street, now that‟s on the west side too, way out to North Park. So no wait, is Taylor on the west side? �11 Interviewer: I don‟t even know where Taylor is… Blake: There is, the river turns there some, Division, no, we didn‟t cross the river. No Taylor isn‟t on the west side, I, I was wrong there, because we didn‟t cross the river when we went out to North Park. So Taylor must be in that direction. But we went past what we call the Soldiers Home, it‟s now called the Veteran‟s facility, and out to a pavilion that, that was there near the bridge that did cross over to the west side. Now that, that bridge was way out at Comstock Park. So Taylor must be out there, in that direction. I ought to know, but I don‟t; mixed up on that, but the names Wealthy-Scribner, Wealthy-Taylor, people from other cities used to say, “You have the queerest names for your streets” Now the Shawmut, what a name, and Cherry, and Cherry, Cherry Street, why Cherry Street? Well, maybe they had cherry trees once, I don‟t remember, but Wealthy-Scribner, Wealthy-Taylor, Reed‟s Lake, Cherry-Shawmut, John Ball Park, and they thought John Ball Park must be a place where they have ball games; of course… there isn‟t any out there. We had to explain that John Ball was one of the pioneers in Grand Rapids, that that park was named after him. I hope you dump out a lot of this, you take them will you. Interviewer: Do you think that, well you were a school teacher for a long time, how has the society changed or has it changed from the days when you were growing up? And what do you attribute that change to? Blake: Well, of course the recent change I‟d say has taken place within the last four years. I think its chaos now. Standards are, standards are broken down; many people have no standards, they just think they can do what they please. Which I call communistic, they might as well be shipped off to Russia the way they act. And the way they simply think they can help themselves to anything. Gangs come around, throwing stones and, and… Interviewer: Do you have that problem down here on College? Blake: Right here, they haven‟t hit the house yet; they don‟t quite dare. And they can‟t quite reach the house for they, it‟s, it‟s a gang that is sort of between little colored people and grown, and they‟re, they‟re all, the gang is all colored. That isn‟t one that, that comes around here occasionally, and they seem to recruit from somewhere over on Paris Avenue, which is almost solid black. You know that, that block there, there are three white families that I know are still living there, up near Cherry. But I think most of those in through here don‟t know how live. And that has been, that neighborhood has run down, don‟t quote me on these things please, but that neighborhood has run down for many years, because a real estate man who was buying up all the properties just let it go to, well, go to pieces. And let the houses run down, didn‟t care who rented them, but one of the former renters there told me that, that she was charged an enormous rent for a horrible room in one of the houses back here, and well the backyards are, well they are cleaned up a little bit, but they‟re not too good there. There are cars parked all over in the backyards, and sometimes people climbing all over the tops of them. That one time there were six, for heaven‟s sakes, don‟t quote me, I‟m, I‟m getting some of the dope on this area. But �12 we‟ve had, and, and why, I don‟t know why, we‟ve suddenly changed. The lack of standards, the lack of any idea of what‟s right nor wrong or is what, what‟s it seems to me that some of them think well, whatever they want to do is right. Well they have a right to which isn‟t right at all. They have no standards, but the gang here, made up of both little and big, are the one I dealt with happened to be all colored. And they throw stones, and pieces of cement and bricks, I don‟t know where they get the bricks, from the fence line, my back fence line there, and the garage back there; I have a drive, short driveway on this side whenever I. They in order to make a lot of no[ise], they could, they couldn‟t throw far enough to hit the house, there‟s a big back lawn there, they really were a bunch of cowards and they didn‟t quite dare, but really what‟s fortunate they didn‟t dare come over the fence. A, so they put a dishpan out so it would make a lot of noise from where, they threw from the fence and threw towards the dishpan so it would make a resounding noise, their bricks and their stones and oh boy… Well they did that one day when I was here. I spend a part of everyday down here, trying to clear up this house, clear out a little each day, but one morning when I came down from Oakwood Manor, I looked out the back window and the lawn was scattered with bricks and stones they‟d been throwing „em, either the night before or early morning, and I really should have had the police come up and look at it. But it was the day that, that the trucks come along and clean up everything or they did for a while. So I thought well, I better get this, this stuff out in front for the trucks to pick up so I did. But I should have called the police out first, to take a look at it. I told them about it afterwards, but, they said, “Did they do any damage to the house?” I said, well I can‟t prove it, but there is broken glass around, but they, they were at a distance when they threw those things, and they didn‟t hit the house. Damage was merely to my nerves…and house to clean up, but anyway, that sort of thing seems to spring up all of a sudden. And, sometimes they swarm around the car out there, there parked in the driveway and one day they came around, they must have had either a stone or a brick in their hands, I don‟t know, and whanged against the house you know and one these, oh, forget what, anyway, to make all the noise they could, trying to terrorize the, whoever was inside the house. They didn‟t break a single glass, but I was afraid they would so I called the police. And if the police had come at once they would have seen the whole gang of them. By the time a policeman got up here, I had called a second time, I said I need the police, and I need them now, well, I said, the gang‟s right here, and take a picture of them. And said well he‟s on the way, well, the nice policeman was on the way, but when he came here… Interviewer: They were gone: Blake: They vanished into thin air, where they went and how, I don‟t know. It was just like that and they were gone. And he asked me their names… Why, I said, “I don‟t know their names.” “Well, what‟d they look like?” I said, “To me those colored people all look alike.” And, “What did they wear?” Well, I said, “I can remember one wore a striped red and white sweater…” “Are they good looking?” Well I said, “I don‟t know, their names, and I don‟t know who their parents are, they‟re a gang that, that, gather themselves together, you know, and go in and out behind… well, there‟s a big barn over there, that‟s a good place to hide, behind a red barn, and then there‟s �13 a garage right next to me, back of this house if you ask them and they recruit, and then they come around.” Well, now that‟s what we‟re up against, that lawlessness, all the … broken out and they think they seem to have the right to be any where they want to, whether they want to play in the back yard or where… Interviewer: It wasn‟t like that when you were… Blake: Well, no. this was private property, and if, in fact we almost always had the fence around and mother had a fence with a gate that locked and she let in people she wanted her children to play with, and kept out those she didn‟t. But that was way back, of course when your home was your private property, your own affair, and now people think they have a right in anything. Well, that‟s Communism, why not pack them off to Russia and leave them there, it that‟s… but that seems to be a general feeling. And where it comes from… Interviewer: Could you a… Blake: But, it‟s to me a total reversal of what‟s right and what‟s wrong and what‟s decent and what isn‟t. But you see I‟m very old fashioned. It‟s, it‟s awfully hard to take different reasons for things. Interviewer: Yeah. Blake: What‟s back of it I don‟t know. Of course, the automobile began changing ways of life for instance an all-day picnic at, at Ada or Cascade with a horse and buggy, now it‟s about, doesn‟t take more than 30 minutes to drive, to drive an auto there, another 30 back. I think life began changing then, but it was still a delightful living in the early days of the automobile. But something has hit- is it war? Do you think war is back of what‟s the matter with us? We‟re always fighting somewhere. If it isn‟t Vietnam it‟s somewhere else. I don‟t know what‟s, what‟s the, but to me it, it‟s a, it‟s tragic. People, now this of course still part of the Heritage Hill district and the people here are just hoping that they can stay here; they‟re watching and just hoping that they can stay here. There are some lovely people across the street in one of the houses that was there when, when we, we moved up here, one of the two houses that was on the other side of the street, still there, sort of ice cream colored, the Magmoses[?] live there now. And they‟re hoping they can stay there, that the, that the gangs that come around won‟t, won‟t get over on their side. They don‟t know when it‟s going to run across the street… They say things aren‟t, you can‟t plan ahead or be confident that you can do things that you used to do now, don‟t know, what you‟re going to run up against. I don‟t know what‟s, I don‟t think anybody knows the answer. But it seems to me sort of a communistic movement … that‟s been very gradually and subtly pushed nearer and nearer to where we‟re living. Came from Detroit, here, and from where to Detroit I goodness knows. Detroit‟s had an awful time, hasn‟t it? Just fright[ful]… �14 INDEX A M Alliance Française Club · 8 Anthony, Susan B. · 5, 6 McKnight, Mrs. · 7, 8 B N Blake, Adeline Louise "Alde" Tuck (Mother) · 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 13 Blake, William Frederick (Father) · 2, 3, 4 Blodgett, Mrs. John · 6 Brouwer Family · 2 National Women’s Suffrage organization · 7 R Reed’s Lake · 4, 11 C Central High School · 8, 9 Cody Hotel · 1 G Grand Rapids Equal Suffrage Club · 7 H Herpolsheimer’s · 3 S Shaw Family · 2 Shaw, Howard · 5 St. Cecilia's Music Society · 6, 7, 10 State Women’s Suffrage organization · 7 T Taft, President · 7, 8 U J Union High School · 8, 9 John Ball Park · 3, 11 Judson Grocery Company · 2, 3 W L Ladies Literary Club · 7, 8, 9, 10 Wealthy Avenue School · 2 Wishart, Dr. · 5, 6 Women's Suffrage · 5, 6, 8, 11 Worden Grocery Company · 3 Wurzburg’s · 3 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ce366b50d4e3f9d5f743cb39c461566.mp3 abb684495a57d7b68391809aff37d961 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_14-15Blake Title A name given to the resource Blake, Dorothy Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Blake, Dorothy Description An account of the resource Miss Blake was a Radcliffe graduate and taught school at Union High School for 34 years. Miss Blake met both Woodrow Wilson and Howard Taft at the Lady's Literary Club. She also worked in the 1912 National campaign for women's suffrage movement. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9a750f938b8a45242b67abc0c1a7b33f.pdf 1b09bd3d64ad5a79e37c264bb1964c8d PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Blodgett, John Interviewed on October 2, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #27 (1:00:16) Biographical Information Mr. John Wood Blodgett, Jr. was born on 24 May 1901 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, the son of John Wood Blodgett and Minnie A. Cumnock. John died October, 1987 at the age of 86 years. John Wood Blodgett, Sr. was born 26 July 1860 in Hersey, Osceola County, Michigan, the son of Delos Abiel and Jane S. “Jennie” (Wood) Blodgett. John W. Blodgett, Sr. died on 21 November 1951. He was married to Minnie A. Cumnock on 16 January 1895 in Lowell, Massachusetts. She was the daughter of Alexander G. and Frances F. (Ross) Cumnock, born July 1862 in Massachusetts. Minnie died in 1931. ___________ Mr. Blodgett: Yes, Well, I was born on May twenty-fourth, nineteen one although now, that I have reached my, past my seventieth birthday. I don‟t recall that I ever knew whether I was born in the house on Cherry Street or whether I was born in the old UBA Hospital. But anyway my earliest recollections, of course deal with the house at what originally was known as three hundred and sixty-five Cherry Street. And then some time later, I don‟t recall the exact year that number was changed to four-0-one Cherry. I‟m in the same house you understand. That house is situated where the Stuyvesant Apartments is now at the corner of Madison Avenue and Cherry where State and Cherry run together. And the entrance apparently was always referred to as Cherry Street because the numbers were always Cherry and not State. Let‟s see well, most of my friends in those early days, lived on that block bounded by Cherry Street, Washington Street, Madison Avenue and College; and a great many of them have gone to their reward since then. One of my closest friends was Bill Rogers. I think his official name was Winfield and he was the son of Dr. John R. Rogers who at that time lived on Madison Avenue in the same house that Mrs. Dutcher the podiatrist has her shop now. And another of my closest friends and Bill died quite a number of years ago, I believe, of cancer. Another of my very closest friends was Stanley Barnhart who lived up the street on Cherry Street there and Stan passed away in nineteen hundred and nineteen. I think about late August or early September of nineteen nineteen, but anyway that‟s where my closest friends were. Also in that block was Theron Goodspeed and he‟s dead. Then across on the other side of Madison Avenue, about opposite the Roger‟s house was a fellow named Ed Moore, now I‟m not sure if at this juncture was name was spelled More or Moore. I just have forgotten. But he was never as close as I was to Bill Rogers and Stanley Barnhart. Dudley Cassard, who I believe is still alive last I heard which was a number of years �2 ago, he was living somewhere in the greater Los Angeles area. He was also quite a close friend but I‟d say Bill Rogers and Stan Barnhart were my closest friends; we did a lot of things together. A bunch of kids, I remember, we had a rabbit out in back of the Barnharts house and I guess it must have been a female rabbit, because, I remember she had a litter, if that‟s the correct term for a bunch of young rabbits, and then because she wasn‟t given enough water why she ate all her offspring or rather killed all her offspring and drank their blood and so forth. Interviewer: Oh. Mr. Blodgett: And then I remember along with Jerome Draper who lived on Washington Street, I don‟t know the address but I could, show you the house while we‟re down Washington Street. Why we all owned a hen and our dividends consisted of an egg every now and then. And about the only friend of those days were who was still living is Huston McBain, the retired chairman of the board of Marshall Field and Company, who used to live in those days at the Stratford Arms. Interviewer: Where‟s the Stratford Arms? Mr. Blodgett: The Stratford Arms is on the corner of Morris and Cherry and is still standing and is still called the Stratford Arms. And he lived there incidentally, he is probably the most illustrious of all the group I grew up with because I say he went right through the ranks of Marshall Field and Company and at some incredibly early age why he became chairman of the board and then retired as chairman of the board after serving, I don‟t know how many years. And since then he‟s, because very interested in Scotch things and he is now, written up in Scotch circles because although he is an American citizen, of course, he is the McBain of McBain. And anybody who knows Scotch history knows that that‟s the name of the leader of the clan. Interviewer: Oh. Mr. Blodgett: And so forth and so it‟s quite unusual for an American citizen to be a McBain of McBain. Interviewer: Did he, did he get his start in a department store work in Grand Rapids or did he go to…? Mr. Blodgett: No, he went, I believe to the University of Michigan and possibly some people who were in the University of Michigan, I suspect his class must have been about nineteen twenty-three in Michigan, but I‟m not sure of that. I‟m not sure whether he ever did any work here in Grand Rapids before moving to Chicago or not. I don‟t really know but I don‟t think so. But, Huston McBain can be, as I say is still alive or was last I knew, which was about a couple of months ago and lives over in Illinois. I mean in the greater Chicago area. I have his address downtown, I‟m not sure I have it with me. But anyway he is easily locatable. And… Interviewer: Did you all go to public school? �3 Mr. Blodgett: No, we had a teacher from New England, and later she became an old maid. She wasn‟t an old maid when she came with us. Her name was Lina Morton and up in the third floor of the house on Cherry Street, why we had a small school and I don‟t remember just how many people were in that school and, I think Elizabeth Rogers, Bill‟s sister was there, but Bill himself went to public school. And so I was taught by Miss Morton until I went away to Saint Mark‟s school at South Massachusetts in the fall of nineteen twenty-four. I‟m told that my family, for a couple of summers or maybe, two or three I‟m not sure, went up to Mackinac Island in the summertime but my earliest summer recollection s were down at York Harbor, Maine. And we stayed there until nineteen hundred and, summer of nineteen ten then we all went abroad, that is all. My father, mother, sister and myself to England, we sailed on a White-Star Liner called “the Adriatic”. Whether we came back on the Adriatic or not I don‟t recall. But I do remember we went over on her. And then, in the summer of nineteen eleven, nineteen twelve and nineteen thirteen we were down at Prides Crossing, Mississippi and then in the summer of nineteen fourteen, we all went abroad and of course as everyone knows that‟s the time when World War Onebroke out and at the exact day when mobilization occurred why I was staying with this Swiss maid of mother‟s who sort of looked after us. Her name was Rose Loamer, she was a protestant Swiss from a town of Neuchâtel and at least so I was told, and anyway I‟ve had some stomach trouble probably something I ate unquestionably, and so Rose Loamer and I were staying at this hotel at Avion, which is across in France. Well, Father, Mother and Sister had gone off in the Packard. We‟d taken a Packard touring car to Europe that summer. And anyway they‟d all gone off and so the morning of the mobilization occur why, Rose Loamer and I had a great deal of difficulty in getting anything to eat because not only was, were all the French waiters gone and so forth but of course Switzerland was right across the Lake Geneva and all the Swiss were there so about the only people that were left as hotel staff were Argentineans and other South Americans because everybody else naturally all of Europe was mobilized. And of course everybody knows Switzerland wasn‟t in the war but they don‟t think they weren‟t mobilized too. And so anyway Rose Loamer and I took the boat across to Lozan and then took the train to Lucerne and at Lucerne my Grandfather, Father and Grandmother Cumnock were there. That‟s my mother‟s family. And I believe an aunt of mine, we stayed there as I recall for several weeks. Of course Father, Mother and Sister joined us there a couple of days later and then at Lucerne and then later we all went down to Genoa and took a ship from Genoa to the United States. A ship called Principessa Mafalda. And that‟s a rather long and interesting story because my father had to charter this ship It normally, it was a ship, it was rather small by Atlantic ship standards even in those days because my recollection is it was only a ten thousand ton ship but it normally ran to South America but for some reason or other it was available in, in Genoa there. And so my father chartered it and we filled it up with lots of refugees who had congregated at Genoa, who had poured in from Switzerland, southern France, Austria and Italy and so forth. So anyway she had a pretty full load and she landed in New York. Interviewer: Were they American refugees or? �4 Mr. Blodgett: Oh yes, they were all Americans, but there were an awful lot of Americans stranded in Europe as I say at the outbreak of that war, just the way I suppose there were loads and loads of American stranded in Europe as when the Second World War broke out. Interviewer: Was traveling in Europe, did many people in Grand Rapids that were members of that were more well-to-do travel to Europe in those days? Mr. Blodgett: I would think so, but I naturally don‟t know exactly, but there must have been because… Well, I really don‟t know the answer to that question as to how many but of course as far as travel to Europe is concerned, why there were loads and loads of boats because I remember it wasn‟t till oh I guess just before World War Two that Cunard Line and White Star merged. The British government merged them and until then they were two separate lines. Of course, there weren‟t very many Italian ships going to New York at all I guess „til, I don‟t know, the thirties or something like that. Interviewer: I just wanted to correct something that you said; I just wondered about the date, you said you went off to Saint Mark‟s prep school in nineteen twenty-four. Mr. Blodgett: No, did I say nineteen twenty-four? No, no, nineteen fourteen. Interviewer: OK. Mr. Blodgett: Because after we got landed in New York why then I went up to stay with my grandparents in Lowell [Mass.] because there was, there were a couple of weeks so to kill before I went to Saint Mark‟s. And, incidentally it‟s rather interesting to note that one of my friends in Lowell there in those two weeks was White Vandenberg who later became I think a lieutenant general, maybe a full general in the Air Force and I believe Vandenberg Air Force base on the coast of California, north of Santa Barbara is named after him. But I‟m pretty sure he was either a lieutenant general or a full general before he died. Interviewer: OK. Mr. Blodgett: And incidentally he was related to Arthur Vandenberg here so although White Vandenberg, I think I‟m right in this but as a matter, I suppose of historical record that but I‟m pretty sure that I remember that being told much later that White Vandenberg, although he was a Lowell resident, he got his appointment to West Point from a Senator Arthur, the late Senator Arthur Vandenberg who I believe was his uncle. Interviewer: This school that was in the, on the third floor of your house, what kind of studies did you concentrate on? Mr. Blodgett: Everything but that you know from beginning to read and write, right up to getting ready for St. Mark‟s. Except that Miss Morton didn‟t, of course, teach me any French. And that I learned from Mrs. Charlotte Hughes who used to live on Fulton Street, part of the �5 property where the Reformed Church is now. A great many people probably still alive who vaguely remember Miss Charlotte Hughes because I think, she only died a comparatively few years ago. Interviewer: Why did your parents hire a private teacher for the house rather than send you to the public schools? Mr. Blodgett: That I don‟t know, that I don‟t know. I haven‟t any idea. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Blodgett: Probably, Mother thought that a private teacher could do it better. That‟s my guess though I‟m not sure. And, yes, of course before going to St. Mark‟s I had to have some Latin and that was taught to me by the late Miss Jeanette Perry who lived on Fulton Street there. And I believe her father at one time was a mayor of Grand Rapids. But she was well known, Miss Perry was later on, in Vassar circles; but she taught me my Latin. Interviewer: How did your family happen to get started in Michigan? Where were they originally located? Mr. Blodgett: Well, that‟s all in those books that I pointed out there along with where my grandfather Delos Blodgett was born in New York State and where he migrated and when he went to Michigan and so forth and so that‟s in all those books. And about the only thing that I can add to those books is that my father always told me that to the best of his knowledge and belief he was the first white child born in Osceola County In other words, Michigan was pretty wild when, he was born in eighteen sixty way up that far north. Interviewer: Well, then lumber is probably is what lured them away from New York State, the lumber business. Mr. Blodgett: No, no it‟s all written up in my grandfather‟s thing there and I‟d much prefer to have you quote that than rather quote me on that subject. Interviewer: OK. Mr. Blodgett: On that, it‟s a matter of historical record because I studied it in college that the stock of which my grandfather was a member is known in American history as the New York, New England stock. I think it‟s called New York, New England rather than the other way around. But anyway, all the people of New, or not all the people naturally, but a great stream of migrants went west from the New England states and poured into the west and a great many of them poured through upper New York state. As a matter of fact, probably one of the most illustrious of that group was Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism and I believe Brigham Young was also of that same western moving stock. And it was quite a well known historical movement. Interviewer: How did an early lumberman in Michigan get concessions to cut timber? �6 Mr. Blodgett: That I don‟t know. That I don‟t know. Interviewer: Ok. Mr. Blodgett: You see, by the time I came along and got actively interested in the business and well, in nineteen twenty-four after I got out of Harvard why, I wasn‟t really quite active in the business because I was very busy learning to keep books and so forth. I went to DavenportMcLachlan Institute as I think it was then called down on that now vacant lot there that is on Pearl Street about opposite, the Midtown Theatre which used to in my days be called the Powers Theatre. And so learning bookkeeping you might say I really didn‟t get too involved in lumber business until about a year later, because I was just having to learn how to keep books and so forth. I learned to set up my own set of books; of course it was simple in those days and everything like that. Interviewer: When they used to timber here in Michigan and bring the logs down the river was there much theft? Mr. Blodgett: I wouldn‟t know. I wouldn‟t know. I started to explain that by the time I came along of course the family hadn‟t had any timber interests in Michigan for I don‟t know how many years, maybe it was twenty, maybe it was thirty and so forth I mean that‟s a matter of back family history which I don‟t really know about. I mean in other words if somebody asked me if or if you asked me when the last stick of timber cut in Michigan when the Blodgett family were interested in I wouldn‟t be able to answer that at all. My guess is it was somewhere between about eighteen ninety-five and nineteen hundred and five but that‟s just a guess, I wouldn‟t know. Interviewer: Where did, where did your family expand their operations to after they went to Michigan. Mr. Blodgett: They expanded them in two directions down south and then on the Pacific Coast. Interviewer: Are you still involved in the lumber business? Mr. Blodgett: I call myself retired or semi-retired, because thank God I don‟t have to run any lumber companies these days, but I‟m still interested in financially in two companies. One is the Michigan California Lumber Company in El Dorado County, California. That‟s a pine company primarily although there‟s so much white fir up in that country that I think usually the largest single species cut is white fir. And the other is the predecessor. well the other let‟s say is the Arcata Redwood Company which is now the lumbering branch of Arcata National Company which is listed on the big board. And the lumber interests of that company go way back to a tract of timber which was owned I believe somewhere back in the nineteen hundred and five to nineteen hundred and ten era. Again, of course I was a small boy and knew nothing about this. But it was called Hill Davis Company Limited. And the books in the early days were kept in �7 Saginaw, Michigan. The Limited, by the way that‟s used by a great many companies, is that Michigan in those days and until I was thirty five or forty had a law that I‟m told that was quite unique in that you could form things that were called Limited Partnership Associations I think that‟s the correct term. And you‟ll have to consult a lawyer as to what those could do they as I understand it enjoyed most of the advantages of a corporation and most of the advantages of a partnership but without the disadvantages of either and so that‟s why a number of these concerns that we were with were called, had the Limited after it, in other words a great many people looked at, look, used to look at the Limited after these concerns and they‟d say, well this must be a Canadian concern because of course they used that Limited up in, a great deal there. But no, there was the Arcata National that grew out of a tract of timber which was I say formed a long time ago presumably somewhere in around nineteen and five to nineteen ten, called Hill Davis Company Limited and their books were kept as I recall it from the story in Saginaw and then they were, the books were later brought over here and kept in our office. And let‟s see, well I vaguely remember when my father had his office in the Michigan Trust building but, he moved into the present building in which I believe was built and occupied by nineteen sixteen. Of course, that present building as you know on Monroe Avenue there has had three different names. Let‟s see I think it was originally the Grand Rapids Saving Bank Building, then the Grand Rapids Savings Bank, I believe, folded up in the bank holiday and bank depression in thirty-two or thirty-three, and then it became the People‟s National Bank and so then the building became the People‟s National Bank Building. And then when the People‟s National Bank was merged into the Old Kent. Why, since there wasn‟t any more People‟s National Bank, why they just called it the People‟s Building. I had to narrate this story to quite a few people because every now and then in the last few years when I‟ve started new charge accounts, somebody somewhere why people says, “People‟s Building, how did it get that name?” So I‟d have to explain the story to them. It‟s rather amusing. Well, let‟s cut this off a minute, let me have a pipe. Interviewer: Ok, I‟m about ready to exchange tapes, anyway. Mr. Blodgett: Yes Interviewer: You were mentioning that when you were young you were quite interested in fire engines. Could you tell me a little about what the fire engines were like? Mr. Blodgett: Well, the fire engines when I first knew them, of course, were all horse drawn, I don‟t know when the, don‟t remember when the first motorized one came along. But the point is that the Number One Fire House, which of course is where the present Number One is, down there on LaGrave. When they used to come going up Cherry Street why, because they were horse drawn and because the fire engines naturally all didn‟t proceed with the same speed. Why, we small boys would follow them up Cherry Street and if the fire was very near why we‟d stand around and watch it. But, as I remember it, the little chemical wagon, as they used to call it in those days, just had a small tank of chemicals. That was the lightest and so that would usually be first and then would probably come a hose cart with lots of hoses. Then would come the hook �8 and ladder and then the steamer which I remembered was only drawn by three horses. It was considerably slower so if you started up Cherry Street and let‟s say the fire was two or three blocks up Cherry Street or something, why by the time the steamer came along you‟d usually you‟ve been able to run at least a couple of blocks and maybe three up Cherry Street. Follow the fire and so forth. No, as I say I don‟t remember exactly when they changed over from horse drawn to engines. But yes, that was a usual sport in those days. Interviewer: I was just noticing as, we‟re sitting here in this den that this beautiful woodwork. When, when was this home built? Mr. Blodgett: Well, this home was completed and we moved in very early January of nineteen twenty-eight. And I should explain that, after the fall of nineteen twelve, no about August of nineteen thirteen why the house on Cherry Street burned out. I think it‟s more correct to say out than burned down because there were several rooms in it, after the fire, that were perfectly livable in as far as if you didn‟t mind the smoky smell. I mean they weren‟t damaged that much. But anyway, the house was burned out pretty well and so Father and Mother decided not to rebuild and so, we were at Pride‟s Crossing [Massachusetts] at the time the fire occurred and Miss Morton, the teacher and a couple of maids, I believe were in the house. They had no trouble getting out, of course. And then we moved temporarily to the Philo Fuller house on Lafayette Street for a little while. And then we were able to move into my grandfather‟s old place, on the corner of Prospect and Fulton Street. The old D.A. Blodgett house, as I always knew it. And then we lived there until this house here on Plymouth Road was completed and we moved in and, as I say in very early January of nineteen twenty-eight. Interviewer: Who did the woodwork? Mr. Blodgett: This room? Gosh, I can‟t remember, we‟ve got a book in the other room somewhere, all about, quite a number of features of this house. But twenty five years ago, I could have told you a lot more about the house and all that than I can now because frankly I‟ve forgotten a lot of it. The house was designed by Stewart Walker. I think his name was spelled S-T-E-W-A-R-T. Stewart Walker of Walker & Gillette in New York. And this house I believe is one of the better examples of what you might call Modern Georgian architecture in America. Stewart Walker was a great perfectionist and so was my mother and so that‟s the reason for this kind of house. Interviewer: If you don‟t mind me asking, how much would a house like this have cost in nineteen twenty-eight to build? Mr. Blodgett: I haven‟t any idea. I was not a small boy in those days, as a matter of fact I was a budding young businessman, but I never inquired and so I don‟t know to this day, how much this house cost. [I] haven‟t any idea. Interviewer: It‟s really a beautiful place. �9 Mr. Blodgett: Yes. Interviewer: Why in our conversation here this morning you mentioned that summers you spent mostly in the east, was that because you had family out there? Mr. Blodgett: Yes, I suppose that was it and although as I remember, we didn‟t see too much of my grandparents in Lowell, Massachusetts. They usually stayed in Lowell all the year around. Although some summers they would rent a house for a short time but for some reason or another, my mother wanted to go east and so that‟s at least I guess that‟s the reason why we went first to York Harbor and we went to after that to Pride‟s Crossing. Interviewer: Now, with a business such as yours did from what I gather, is somewhat widely dispersed, why have you kept your base of operations here in Grand Rapids? Mr. Blodgett: Well, that‟s just because Grand Rapids has always been home and so forth. But, over the course of the years, between say nineteen thirty-five and nineteen sixty-three or so why I did spend a great deal of time out on the Pacific Coast. I‟ve just recently had to try to find out when my father established his office in Portland, Oregon, and so I‟m not sure of that exact date, I think it was around nineteen hundred and five or nineteen hundred and seven. And the office just consisted of one man was named Peter Brumby, a Canadian and Pete shared this, there was not very much there to do, you might say in one sense of the word. And so Pete Brumby didn‟t even have an office by himself as I remembered in the early days, he shared it with some other fellow. Interviewer: When did your grandfather die? Mr. Blodgett: Well, that again the exact date I think is in the book. I think that was nineteen hundred and seven. But again, that‟s in one of these volumes there. Interviewer: Yes, that‟s when you and your friends had your little mock funeral. Mr. Blodgett: Yes, that I can remember, that‟s one of my earliest recollections that we went to the funeral service at my grandfather‟s house on Fulton Street there and I remember that when I was told I could have my last look at my grandfather Blodgett, why there was a footing for the thing that hold the casket. Of course, I, would being, a very clumsy boy, stumble over that and so forth, much to everybody‟s consternation. But, I didn‟t go out to the cemetery. Father didn‟t think that was advisable and so I remember that somehow or other, Bill Rogers and Stan Barnhart and somebody other, else or maybe a couple of others conceived the idea we ought to have our own funeral and so we went in to the Goodspeeds, I guess, no, you‟d hardly I guess still you‟d call it in those days, carriage house attic and we get a couple of boards, a couple long boards and we nailed an ordinary bushel basket, of which there used to be a great many in those days, ‟cause, that‟s what you put leaves in the Autumn and so we nailed that in there and the rest of us carried Theron Goodspeed around the block and some enterprising mother saw us and �10 knowing that my grandfather‟s funeral had taken place just a little while earlier that afternoon, suspected what was up so they promptly whoever it was promptly called a few other parents and our mock funeral came to an early termination. I don‟t remember that I was punished particularly for that thing probably because we were so darn young. Interviewer: What, how old were you when you went away to school to St. Mark‟s? Mr. Blodgett: Well, let‟s see I was born in May of nineteen hundred and one and I entered in the fall of nineteen fourteen; let‟s see I‟d been thirteen. Interviewer: From that time until you came back to Grand Rapids, after you‟d completed your studies at Harvard did you spend very much time here? Mr. Blodgett: No, very, very little, very little. Interviewer: Did you come back in the summer? Mr. Blodgett: No, we were elsewhere in the summer so I spent very little time in Grand Rapids between nineteen fourteen and fall of nineteen hundred and twenty-four. Interviewer: Did you ever, when you did come home, did you ever attend any parties here? Mr. Blodgett: Yes, yes but I can‟t remember who gave „em or where they were or anything like that much. I remember we were almost always in New York for what you might call Christmas vacation because my mother rented a house in New York and lived there while my sister went to Miss Spencer‟s school in New York. And then my sister came out in New York and so forth and then after that while I was in college we always spent all our Christmases in New York City because so many relatives were either there or in the vicinity Interviewer: I see. Mr. Blodgett: And my sister, after she and Morris Hadley were married, why they lived in Boston or in Cambridge. I should say for a couple of years, because Morris still had two more years to go in Harvard Law School. The war interrupted his education as it did a great many other people. And then, she, my brother-in-law and sister moved to New York because immediately after graduation from Harvard Law School, he went into a firm in New York so he was there. And my Aunt Mary and Uncle Arthur Cumnock always lived in New York and then by that time my mother‟s sister, my Aunt Grace was married and she was living in, she and her husband were living in New York. So actually we had more relatives in New York City then we had in any other place so I think that‟s one reason why we were always there. So I spent many, many, well I suppose that‟s a get out and visit, you can‟t call it a Christmas vacation by, certainly during, while I was in boarding school and while I was in boarding school and while I was in college and that and so forth. Christmas vacations were always spent there and then after I got into business, why since the family were there, and so forth, they wanted me to naturally �11 be there rather than sit here in Grand Rapids by myself and work. I was usually, well I can‟t remember just what year was the last year that I spent a Christmas in New York. I‟d say it must have been as late as nineteen thirty-four probably. Interviewer: That‟s why it intrigues me, why you still maintain your home in Grand Rapids, after having spent so much of your life elsewhere. Mr. Blodgett: Well, I never went down South but twice to the Mobile office. And unfortunately I can‟t give you the exact years I would say this is just a guess though. I first went down in about nineteen twenty-six or twenty-seven and then again about nineteen thirty, I would say. Both times I spent about two or three weeks down there. Incidentally, it is an interesting thing to record for posterity that Blodgett, Mississippi was named after, I suppose, my father rather than my grandfather. I can‟t remember which railroad that‟s on now and I don‟t think it‟s on any Mississippi maps anymore. There was a saw mill there and they were cutting Blodgett timber. But Blodgett, Oregon is not named after any member of my family, contrary to what a great many people think. Interviewer: Was your family, always, members of Fountain Street Church? Mr. Blodgett: No, no we were Park Church people, although my father was not a very devout churchgoer. As a matter of fact, he usually went horse-back riding on Sunday mornings. Interviewer: Do you, do you remember Doctor Wishart? Mr. Blodgett: Oh, very well, very well indeed. Yes. Interviewer: What kind of man was he? Mr. Blodgett: Oh, he was a great man, great man and a wonderful preacher. If you want me to go into that for the benefit if posterity I‟d be delighted to but because I think it‟s rather interesting. Now the year of course would be the year when Doctor Wishart came here first. And that‟s a matter of historical record, down at the Fountain Street Church. I don‟t remember, now just what year it was, but anyway the former pastor of the Fountain Street Church had either retired or died, again that‟s a matter of historical record and so the church had to look for a new pastor. And according to the story I‟ve been told, and which I believe to be quite reliable, they scouted around at the east and they reported that there were two very promising young men. And so promising they didn‟t think the church would make any mistake hiring either one of them. But of course the church naturally could only have one pastor in those days because it wasn‟t until many years after that we even had an assistant pastor. And so the church finally chose Alfred Wesley Wishart. And a matter of historical record I think down at the church where he was preaching before he went to Fountain Street. But, the other man, the man that they thought was very, very good, but they didn‟t quite like him as well as Wishart, was Harry Emerson Fosdick. �12 Interviewer: That‟s interesting. Mr. Blodgett: Now, as I say I‟ve been told that by several people and who were in a position to know and I‟m pretty sure that the old records will bear that out. It seems to me now, let‟s see one of the, one woman who was a great deal older that I was still alive oh way, way until my forties, and I was trying to remember whether that was a Miss Ball or not. I don‟t think that was the name though. But, she was one of the ones that told me this story about picking Doctor Wishart. Interviewer: Are there any Blodgett sons? Do you have any sons coming along that…? Mr. Blodgett: No, I have no sons. I have three daughters by my second marriage. Interviewer: So then they…? Mr. Blodgett: But they are all living in the east, if you can call New Orleans east. My youngest daughter and her husband, he was studying foe a PhD at Harvard in medieval history and they lived at Chatham, Mass. But anyway, he decided to pursue his graduate studies at Tulane and they‟re just this past August why they moved from Chatham down to New Orleans. But until then I had two daughters both married in Massachusetts and one daughter married and living in Washington, D.C. Interviewer: Is the city how, how is Grand Rapids changed? What‟s the most dramatic change in Grand Rapids that you can think of from the time when you were a boy to the…? Mr. Blodgett: Well, I suppose the most dramatic thing is the automobile. I can still remember as a small boy, going down, we had some sort of carriage that had three seats on it you know, I mean three parallel seats. Of course, the coachman a man named Gilbert was in the front one and then I don‟t know where the rest… But anyway we used to load that up every Memorial Day and we would, well the they didn‟t use the term park in those days, cause that‟s an automobile term, but anyway would stop somewhere right around Veterans Park there and we would watch the Veterans march past and of course in the very early days of my recollection why a few of the Civil War Veterans still walked, although most of them rode. But of course the Spanish War Veterans were probably still in their late twenties or early thirties and so they always marched, of course. And so, I‟d say that the greatest single change that I can think of in Grand Rapids although of course it came gradually, was the advent of the automobile. Interviewer: What about servants, people that help out in houses; how has that changed? Mr. Blodgett: Oh that, that‟s changed a very great deal and since the early days. Interviewer: Did you have, did your mother and father have help in the house? Mr. Blodgett: Oh yes, oh yes. Usually a cook and a couple of maids and so forth. And then of course we had the coachman and a man named Gilbert, I‟ve forgotten what his first name was. �13 Gilbert was the last name, I‟m pretty sure. And the later on of course we had a chauffeur. My mother never did learn to drive a car, which was the case with a great many women in those days. Interviewer: Did, did that help live in the house or did they live outside the house? Mr. Blodgett: No, they lived in the house. Interviewer: How, how is the, how it has changed, in terms of the help from then until now? Mr. Blodgett: Well, they, the great change of course has been, it‟s very much more difficult to get anyone. Interviewer: Why is that, do you think? Mr. Blodgett: Oh, gosh I don‟t know. I think maybe my wife would be able to better answer that question. I think it‟s just that people don‟t like what‟s called domestic service anymore and it‟s very hard to get them. That is rather amazing when you consider the unemployment rolls because the wages of course are very good naturally. The wages have gone up a great deal. But of course, speaking of that and changing the subject rather abruptly, I remember when my father paid Miss Welch the secretary there who was with us so many years. I remember when he raised her to two hundred dollars a month. When that was almost an unheard of salary and I don‟t know how much you‟d have to get some economist to do a study the figures to tell you what the buying power of two hundred dollars a month was. I don‟t remember what year it was that father raised Miss Welch to two hundred dollars a month but as I say, the buying power of course in those days, I don‟t know whether it‟d be equivalent to seven hundred dollars a month or eight hundred dollars a month. But that was incredible. Well as a matter of fact, this is a rather interesting point. In the summer of nineteen.., let‟s see, wait a minute, my sister married in the summer of nineteen and nineteen, nineteen twenty we were abroad or I mean we were out west , the whole family. The summer of nineteen twenty when I worked, started my lumbering career really by working in the survey party of the Michigan-California Lumber Company. And a common laborer was paid forty cents an hour and my salary was thirty cents or compensation, wasn‟t a salary was thirty seven and a half cents an hour. That was an eight hour day of course. And, on the other hand, we had to pay I think thirty five cents a meal. Of course we worked six days a week and if you‟ll do a little sharp pencil work I think you‟ll discover that naturally I had you pay for your meals at the thirty five cents a meal, a rate which was, I believe that‟s a dollar and five cents a day. You had to pay for Sunday too. But, anyway, thirty seven and a half cents an hour, I managed to save quite lot of money. Because there wasn‟t very much, that you could spend it on. Of course you had to buy your own overalls and your own shoes those two things that wore out faster than anything. And then, I‟ve always had a sweet tooth and since I was expending a great deal of energy in those days why, I used to eat quite a lot of Ghirardelli Eagle Brand Chocolate made in San Francisco in one pound bars and so forth. The reason for expending energy was that you worked an eight hour day but you walked to and from work and �14 depending on where the job was out in the woods. That was either, I‟d say the nearest we ever worked to the sawmill where I lived was about two and a half miles and usually it was more than that and I recall it was not for more than four miles away. So you can see you‟d have to walk eight miles a day or call it an average of six miles a day to and from work. And then you‟d put in eight hour day on your feet. Of course which it‟s all footwork in the survey party. Footwork and handwork and so forth, I mean you don‟t sit down so you would use up a quite bit of energy. Interviewer: Well, I think we‟ve covered about everything. Mr. Blodgett: OK, fine. INDEX Fuller, Philo · 9 A Arcata National Company · 7 Arcata Redwood Company · 7 G Goodspeed, Theron · 1, 10 Grand Rapids Saving Bank · 8 B Barnhart, Stanley · 1, 2 Blodgett, Delos A. · 1, 5 Blodgett, John Wood · 1 Brumby, Peter · 10 C Cassard, Dudley · 2 Cumnock family · 3 Cumnock, Alexander G. · 1 Cumnock, Arthur · 11 Cumnock, Minnie A. · 1 H Hadley, Morris · 11 Hill Davis Company Limited · 7 Hughes, Mrs. Charlotte · 5 L Loamer, Rose · 3 M Davenport-McLachlan Institute · 6 Draper, Jerome · 2 Dutcher, Mrs. · 1 McBain, Huston · 2, 3 Michigan-California Lumber Company · 7, 14 Midtown Theatre · 6 Moore, Ed · 2 Morton, Lina · 3 Morton, Miss · 3, 9 F P Fosdick, Harry Emerson · 12 Fountain Street Church · 12 Park Congregational Church · 12 People‟s National Bank · 8 Perry, Miss Jeanette · 5 D �15 Powers Theatre · 6 V R Vandenberg, Arthur · 5 Vandenberg, White · 4, 5 Rogers, Bill · 1, 2, 10 Rogers, Dr. John R. · 1 Rogers, Elizabeth · 3 Ross, Frances F. · 1 W S Smith, Joseph · 6 Walker & Gillette · 9 Walker, Stewart · 9 Welch, Miss · 14 White Vandenberg · 5 Wishart, Alfred Wesley · 12 Wishart, Dr. · 12, 13 Wood, Jane S. “Jennie” · 1 World War One · 3 World War Two · 4 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bfded6847212bd876fd276d7daef113f.mp3 cc5f0509e5ed12c10d1ca1453a5fc599 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_27Blodgett Title A name given to the resource Blodgett, John W. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Blodgett, John W. Description An account of the resource John W. (Jack) Blodgett was born on May 24, 1901 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. In addition to continuing the lumbering business of his father, he was a banker. John married Minnie Cumnock in 1895. Apart from the Blodgett Memorial Hospital in East Grand Rapids, they helped found the Clinic for Infant Feeding, the Association for the Blind, the Grand Rapids Child Guidance Clinic, and the D. A Blodgett Home for Children. Blodgett died on October 27, 1987. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb56c5bd09a68e280bf460b0097f516b.pdf 1998319d88a3709b35213b5ed1dff526 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. Lowell Blomstrom Interviewed on 4 August 1977 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010- bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #56 (1:06:10) Biographical Information Mr. Lowell Blomstrom was born on 22 March 1893 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He was the son of Carl Herman Blomstrom and Anna A. Berglund. Mr. Blomstrom died on 4 July 1979 in East Grand Rapids, Michigan. He married Signe M. (surname not found) about 1922. Mrs. Blomstrom was born in 1890 in Michigan and died in Grand Rapids on 21 February 1959. Both Lowell and Signe were buried in Greenwood Cemetery in Grand Rapids. Carl H. Blomstrom was born in April 1867 in Lisbon, Ottawa County, Michigan. He was the son of Carl G. Blomstrom and Elizabeth ―Elles‖ Carlson. Carl died in 1923. He married Anna A. Berglund on 17 September 1890 in Muskegon, Michigan. Anna was born in December 1865 in Sweden and died in 1923. Both Carl and Anna were buried in Greenwood Cemetery in Grand Rapids. ___________ Interviewer: Lowell Blomstrom, 559 Lakeside Dr., S.E. Grand Rapids, Michigan; on the 4th day of August, 1977. Mr. Blomstrom and his father have been pioneers in the automobile industry for perhaps close to seventy-five years. I‘ve asked Mr. Blomstrom to tell us a little bit about his background and why don‘t you just start talking and tell me about your, where you were born and how long, you did say you born in Grand Rapids? Is that correct? Mr. Blomstrom: Oh yeah, yeah. Interviewer: May I ask you what year? Mr. Blomstrom: Ninety-three, eighteen ninety-three. Interviewer: How long did you stay here? Mr. Blomstrom: We moved to Marquette in eighteen ninety-seven, just about the time the Spanish-American War started. And, oh did you have that on? Interviewer: That‘s alright. �2 Mr. Blomstrom: And father built his second automobile there. His first was built in Grand Rapids. I have no record of that; I have pictures of course of the one in Marquette. That was started in eighteen ninety-eight and finished in nineteen hundred. And then in nineteen one we moved to Detroit where he started the Blomstrom Motor Company. To build the Queen car. And... Interviewer: May I, let me go back to Marquette for just a minute. What was the car called that he built in Marquette? Mr. Blomstrom: There was no name assigned to it. Interviewer: No name assigned to it? Mr. Blomstrom: No it was just the one car. Interviewer: How many, how many were built? Mr. Blomstrom: Just the one. Interviewer: Just one Mr. Blomstrom: Like that yeah. Interviewer: And then you went to Detroit in nineteen one? Mr. Blomstrom: Went to Detroit in nineteen one and he got backing from some millionaires in Marquette. They financed it and, and they built about almost 2 thousand Queens one cylinder first, just a few, a handful of them the first year. Then he went to a two cylinder post flat engine, you know what we call a pancake engine. And then he made a four cylinder in nineteen six and prices were of course quite high for those days, the four cylinder was twenty-two fifty ($2,250), the car like the similar to the one in Grand Rapids Museum was twelve hundred dollars. And the first original one like that one up there on that picture that was seven hundred and fifty dollars, pardon me, seven hundred, fifty dollars. And he had trouble with his partners and he left in nineteen six and started the Blomstrom Thirty, it was called. Thirty was horsepower based on the formula they had at those days, the old SAE formula which we don‘t use today. England still uses it. And they built the Blomstrom car; that was the runabout, they made a touring car. And that was quite a car for its day. And I have one of those. Interviewer: What year was that? Mr. Blomstrom: That was nineteen two when the company was formed, but the first year they made small boats, fifteen and a half foot long, selling for a hundred dollars. It was an inboard three-quarter horse motor. And they sold thousands of those. Then he started the car in nineteen three, one cylinder, in nineteen four he switched to two cylinders, course he made those right through to six. The company continued on after he left but in two years it was gone. �3 Interviewer: How many cylinders does the car have that we have in the public museum? Mr. Blomstrom: Two cylinders, Interviewer: That‘s two cylinders Mr. Blomstrom: Two cylinders yeah. Interviewer: And you say what was that built? Mr. Blomstrom: nineteen four. Interviewer: nineteen four. Mr. Blomstrom: Yes and the car continued on until nineteen eight. He left in nineteen six and then the Detroit Deluxe was put in there and backers from Marquette got the people that designed the Willis Overland, Willis hadn‘t bought into it was Overland, in Grand Rapids or in Toledo. And that was beautiful car and eight thousand dollar car then which was tremendous, most beautiful car you ever saw. But they didn‘t last long. And company was sold and that‘s where the Studebaker comes in to build a car, one of their earliest cars not the earliest but one of the earliest. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Blomstrom: You know South Bend? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Blomstrom: They‘re the wagon people. Interviewer: But your father did continue in the motor car business? Mr. Blomstrom: Well then he, he built a Rex, a small car, I don‘t see it here on these pictures; it was a front drive car, small, they were called, what did they call them? They didn‘t call them compact cars, that was something later that Romney, Mr. Mason, who was the head of, later on, American Motors. Why, I don‘t recall just exactly what they called them, cycle cars, they called them cycle, they were real small. Well that lasted a while. Then he went to Camden, New Jersey, Grenloch just outside of Camden and built this Frontmobile. See that car here? That was a front drive car. And in my opinion they‘re all going to go to it within the next ten years, every last car will be a front drive, in my opinion. And then of course the war came on and they were rationed. Everybody was rationed. General Motors, Ford and everybody. And of course you had to base on the number of cars made in nineteen thirteen; see the war started in fourteen in Europe; it started in sixteen for us. And the big company got zero material based there was no car built in thirteen see, Frontmobile. And so he went to work and he made two-wheel or two front drive and four wheel drive trucks for the government for the ordinance till their money ran out. They had a �4 beautiful building on the Horseshoe Pike going from Philadelphia-Camden to Atlantic City. Still there, the building and they, the money ran out so that faded out of the picture. Then he quit making cars and he didn‘t live very long; he died quite young, fifty-six. And his name was Carl Herman Blomstrom; in Swedish Carl of course is Charles in this country he was known as Charlie or CHB, CH they called him in the... Interviewer: When was he in Adrian? You mentioned before we began… Mr. Blomstrom: Well Adrian the Lion Car was built from nineteen eight to nineteen eleven when fire destroyed the building. Interviewer: That was in Adrian? Mr. Blomstrom: That was in Adrian. Interviewer: The Lion car? Mr. Blomstrom: yeah it was named after the Old Lion Fence Company. They were bought out they moved to Philadelphia or where they were near the source of steel wire see. They were all wire fences you know. And so the company that was [Fred] Postal and [Austin Elbert] Morey who had a big cigar plant in Florida and they owned the Griswold Hotel in Detroit. Father knew them real well. And they were directors and quite a few Adrian people were in on it, directors. So they wanted him to design a car and come out there and build it. It was a beautiful car, there is only one in existence in a museum out near Rushmore you know where the, in the mountain out there in where is it the Dakotas? Somewhere? The only one in existence. Interviewer: Yeah I know what you mean. Mr. Blomstrom: Near Rushmore-Rapid City, South Dakota I believe it is. Interviewer: South Dakota. Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah I think so. I‘ve never been out there but I understand they have the only one in existence. And I‘ve located 7 Queen cars of that 2 cylinder variety less similar to the one in Grand Rapids museum and I‘ve got one of them of course. That‘s I found that down near Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, in a farm yard. It‘d been out there for 50 years and the chickens were roosting on it when I saw it at night, just at dusk you know. A fellow told me about it and I inquired. I got it. It was fully restored; it was in the antique tours a couple years. My cousin, who restored it, drove it in there. Interviewer: I see. What, where do you keep it? Mr. Blomstrom: Where did I keep it? Interviewer: Where do you keep it? �5 Mr. Blomstrom: Oh it‘s in the museum. Interviewer: Oh that‘s the one in the museum? Mr. Blomstrom: Yes, that‘s the red one in the museum. He restored it, did a beautiful job. He won prizes at Ford, Dearborn, Milwaukee and Fremont had their centennial you know. Interviewer: How many Queen cars were built? Mr. Blomstrom: Close to two thousand, around two thousand. That‘s pretty good for those days. Course Olds was the big producer you know. That was before Ford really got going, you know. Olds was the big producer up until nineteen six, seven when Ford come out with the forerunner of the Model-T. Interviewer: Now the Queens were all built in Detroit, it that correct? Mr. Blomstrom: Oh yes, yeah all from Detroit; yeah, on the west side. At the foot of Clark Avenue right by the river. Because he leased the old Clark Dry Dock for his boats you know. Right across the street; that there was the river. Interviewer: What did he do after he went out of the car business? Mr. Blomstrom: Well he and I designed a steering gear reversible, irreversible steering gear for Ford Model-T‘s and we sold thousands of them. I had the patents and I signed to the company. And I still have one in the basement in my store room down there. And you know the Ford was throw it out of your hand, they‘d tip over on you the Model-T‘s. I‘ve seen them tip over. You couldn‘t have no control, no resistance see? It was too direct. And we made, we sold thousands of them; had a company make them for us. And we had a lock on it and it would tilt up you know so it would get in and out easy. Then it had a Yale lock on it so you lock your steering you couldn‘t steer, it someone broke in. Well they were all open cars in those days. Pretty near all open cars, very few closed cars. Well I don‘t know what else Interviewer: What did people do for protection, who rode around in those early cars didn‘t have any tops? Mr. Blomstrom: Well, we‘d stop of course, uh we have umbrellas still we got to a place where we could under a tree or something which was a foolish thing to do probably in a thunderstorm. But we had umbrellas with we had raincoats of course, dusters you know like Cravanet or what do you call it, brown duster. Had gauntlet gloves you know went way up the elbows. But we‘d stop at a farmhouse and go in. Usually our coil which was on the dash got wet so it had we‘d take it in the stove and borrow their oven and light it up to dry it out cause it couldn‘t run without the coil. So we‘d go in and we had a lot of punctures. We usually drove up to the Sparta where my grandfather lived on the farm he was a blacksmith and it would take us two days, better part of two days you know we only made six miles an hour. We‘d stop at Lansing or one of the �6 Williamston out here overnight you know. Come in the next not the full day but. Take us pretty near two days. They made father made it once one day. He left at four o‘clock in the morning and got to Grand Rapids at three in the afternoon. The roads were, there were no roads you know, no paved roads. The first pavement in Michigan as I recall, outside of cities, was the four miles from Howell this way. It was a tavern there called the Four Mile House. That was the first pavement between Detroit and Grand Rapids. That‘s Howell, Michigan coming this way four miles; and all the rest were muddy when it rained of course they were all terrible. No they, we had a lot of fun in those days, although we ran into a lot of troubles. Mostly tire troubles, sometimes the tires would go twenty-five miles, sometimes three hundred, no more. Interviewer: No more than that? Mr. Blomstrom: No they‘d blow out. They were clincher tires you know, hooked in not straight side like yours and mine today. They were, were clincher tires and they would get rim cuts you know. And then they‘d get cut on the ruts on the road when they dry you know it‘s just like emery rubbing on the tires. They‘d blow out most of the time. We had punctures of course. We carried our own patching, rubber patching stuff; what we call cement patch, gasoline patch you know. We cleaned them with gasoline; cut it off with the shears, a piece out of its sheet you know rubber? Then paste it on. Interviewer: By what year were highways as we know them today, becoming more a part of the landscape? Mr. Blomstrom: Well it‘s hard; I‘d have records of it of course. The first piece of pavement in the world is claimed, was put in front of Heinz, he was a road commissioner in Wayne County, near Detroit, which includes Detroit. He had a farm outside, near Dearborn there, and he put a mile of concrete pavement in front of his house, the farm house, that was the first piece of concrete road as I understand it in the United States and probably the world. Interviewer: When was this? Mr. Blomstrom: About nineteen…well I don‘t know exactly. That was in I would say about nineteen ten around in there. Then the city of Detroit ordered two one mile between Six and Seven Mile Road on Woodward Avenue. And that was ten feet wide. And they had tollgates then you know; the farmers had to pay a toll. We had to pay a toll there was one at Six Mile, there was one at Eight Mile, Nine Mile, one at Birmingham, what‘s Birmingham now; and then one out by Pontiac and towards Orchard Lake. So that first mile road that was put between Six and Seven Mile on Woodward, Palmer Park if you‘re familiar, starts at Six, and this went to Seven. It was 10 feet wide, if you met a farmer with a load of hay coming in or something you had to get off. Two couldn‘t pass on ten feet. So the next year they made it twelve, and the next year after that fourteen, then you could just about pass. It was a progression of two feet per several years. And that was the first mile pavement in the World as far as I know. And then of course it started to come in, there wasn‘t any, I don‘t, I would say close to the first World War before there was �7 any amount of mileage and paved roads. Course we had what I call macadam roads you know, that‘s gravel you know. And it was all just like some of the country roads today you know, they‘re dirt roads. There was no pavement to speak. Just that four mile from Howell this way was the first pavement other that the cities. Leaving Detroit, when we first started coming up to Sparta, was a plank road. And finally that got so bad that they tore it all up. That would be on Grand River Avenue going out to Farmington. (Doorbell rings) Pardon me. Interviewer: There now we can resume. Mr. Blomstrom: Well I guess we completed the roads about, didn‘t we as far as you‘re interested. Interviewer: Yes. Let me ask you a question. When did you become associated with your father? Mr. Blomstrom: Well I was never actually in any of the plants that he was interested in. I associated with him in the helping designing. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Blomstrom: And even when I was quite young I got out some patents you know in that way and I helped in his figuring. Cause he, he went to grade school up here by the Marmrelund [Lutheran] Church you know where it is? [Kent City] Interviewer: I know where it is, yes. Mr. Blomstrom: Well, my grandparents were charter members there in eighteen sixty-five. They met in homes you know, first. That was the first building that they had, the wooden one, it‘s a brick building now, was built in seventy-two I believe. Interviewer: Do you remember a family up there by the name of Bloomer? Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah I know where they were; the Bloomer Hill which was a real hill to climb. We used to go up and father would drive and my brother and I would each have a stick of wood and we‘d block the wheels. Could only go a little at a time. Interviewer: That‘s my Mother‘s family. Mr. Blomstrom: Is that right? You know the old Bloomer Hill? Course it‘s cut down now. Interviewer: Yeah, I don‘t really know it. Mr. Blomstrom: Well it was a steep hill, a terribly steep hill; they took off the top and filled in the bottom down there where Kline, not Kline, what‘s his name? I know them, the family; I know most of the family. Interviewer: Klenk? �8 Mr. Blomstrom: Klenk yeah. They‘re down in the hollow, by the Bloomer Hill. Interviewer: I see. Well my grandfather and my grandfather‘s brother kept the farm until his death in nineteen twenty-three. His name was Abel Bloomer. Mr. Blomstrom: Well I don‘t know any of them. I just know the association with the Bloomer Hill. Interviewer: Do you remember the hamlet of Lisbon? Mr. Blomstrom: Well my father was born there Interviewer: He really was? Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah on the other side, he was born in Ottawa County you know that‘s the dividing line. That‘s Ottawa Kent. And he was born there, they didn‘t have any records but he was because my grandfather had a blacksmith‘s shop there. It was called the BlomstromGrumback. John Grumback who was the head of the printing company at one time, he was his first cousin you know. His Grumback‘s father and my grandfather Blomstrom were partners there. They made wagons and did steel work, forging you know. Interviewer: How many people lived in Lisbon in those days? Mr. Blomstrom: Well I have a book on it that published in 1879. It was the biggest town around there except Grand Rapids, of course. It was bigger than Sparta, [which] was called Nashville you know originally. Interviewer: No I never knew that. Mr. Blomstrom: Well the creek is the creek going through there over to the Rogue River you know. And the Rogue of course runs into the Grand here near Belmont. And so this was called Nashville. He [J. E. Nash] was the first settler there. I have pictures of his home. Interviewer: Were you born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Blomstrom: On the west side. Near that St. Adelbert Church, a block away, in that Polish settlement. That‘s quite Polish. It was the old church. This is a new one. This was built in nineteen eight. The other one faced south, this one faces west on Davis I think is the cross street. Near McReynolds, I don‘t know. Yeah the house I was born in was the corner of Davis and McReynolds and Third Street. You see the freeway goes through there now; it took all of the south side of Third Street there. The house I was born in is still standing over there, on the corner. Interviewer: Oh really? Mr. Blomstrom: And they moved it around the corner and built a bigger house on the corner. �9 Interviewer: What‘s the address? Mr. Blomstrom: I don‘t know. Interviewer: You don‘t know. Mr. Blomstrom: It‘s still there. I drove by there a couple of years ago and I saw the house Interviewer: Did you get up into the northern part of the county quite a lot to see your grandfather? Mr. Blomstrom: Oh yeah we used to go up there every year from nineteen three on, every year we‘d go up there. Father would leave a car for us, he‘d take a tester along so he‘d drive back see? And he‘d leave a car for my brother and I, we drove it, it was the only car; people would come from hundreds of miles to see the car you know. Up at grandfather‘s they had heard of the car you know, it was quite a rarity. You didn‘t see cars; well there were only eighty-two cars in the state of Michigan, when I started driving, in the whole state. Interviewer: when was that? Mr. Blomstrom: Nineteen three, yeah, there was only eighty-two... Interviewer: You were about ten years old when you started to drive. Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah , yeah I was ten. I‘ve been driving ever since, never been without a car. Interviewer: What did you, what were your business associations later on? Mr. Blomstrom: Well, of course I helped father but I didn‘t work for the companies. I got some of the patents. He only had eighth grade, he took an ICS; you know International Correspondence Schools? At Scranton, Pennsylvania? He took drafting, I have some of his drawings; they‘re beautiful drawings. He took correspondence courses in engineering; he‘s got a diploma, which I have, in mechanical engineering of the ICS schools. And he was a prolific inventor you know what I mean? One of these fellows who comes to work every morning and has a new idea; never stops to make a nickel you know. And, well Henry Ford is the same thing. I don‘t give him credit for the Ford motor at all. I give it to Jim Couzens and he ran the office you know, the money, the Senator you know later on. Interviewer: What sort of schooling did you have? Mr. Blomstrom: High school Interviewer: Where was that? Mr. Blomstrom: Western High in Detroit. There were only three high schools in Detroit. Eastern, Western, and Central. Western burnt down there‘s over thirty now, I know a few years ago there �10 was twenty-six, probably thirty now. There was only three, Eastern, Western, and Central. The Western burnt down twenty some years ago; there‘s a big new building there, much bigger of course. The building that I was in was built around nineteen hundred. I was there from nineteen six to nineteen ten, when I graduated. And I was going to MIT in Boston. And the principal got me free entrance without an examination because I was fairly good in mathematics- high school mathematics and college algebra too. And that‘s really what‘s helped me in most of my jobs. Interviewer: Did you go on to MIT? Mr. Blomstrom: No I had what they called some kidney ailment and they said I wouldn‘t live. One time the doctor said a week and here I am almost 85 years old, but all the doctors are gone. And well they didn‘t know. I grew up like a weed you know. I was six foot five only weighed a hundred and forty pounds. You know just a hardly a shadow. And I played tennis, of course those days we were, everybody called us sissies you know playing ping-pong out on the grass you know. And when the city wouldn‘t give us a, had any courts, public courts those days, they gave us a space in Clark‘s park. We had a roll it and stripe it on a clay court. They gave us a space for clay on the green court. And so it was, we were the forerunners. My partner and I who later became treasurer of Detroit Edison Company, he died 3 years ago, we were partners. We played doubles so much you know in those days. I played up by the net because I was tall and could reach a lot of them, stop them from going back. I couldn‘t run, he could run, he was fast like old Borg in Sweden now you know. And this other fellow what‘s his name? I don‘t know. And I couldn‘t run. So we played doubles quite a lot. He had his house full of cups. He was champion of the west side and also head of the Detroit Edison Tennis Club for years and years. He was good. I wasn‘t. I was better at playing baseball. I used to play baseball. Not professionally but, and I don‘t know how it was I was so thin but I had a swing, a long swing. Boy that ball would go. Interviewer: Were those grass courts in those days? Mr. Blomstrom: Well we had one grass and one clay court. The city put down the clay. I guess you‘d call it clay, it was white roll. But they put up the posts. We had to furnish the net and stripe it. We used to have our own machine for striping. And we had to furnish the nets and keep it up. They gave us a spot in the park. There‘s hundreds and thousands of them in Detroit now public you know. The only ones that were public were a couple at Belle Isle and two at Waterworks Park. We used to go there and play; I‘d drive a bunch of kids over there. But now there‘re thousands of them. Well you‘re asking me a lot of questions about myself. I thought this was about my father. Interviewer: Well I‘m interested in both of you. I wanted to go on to you back to you for a moment. You became associated with some businesses. Mr. Blomstrom: Well the first thing I did was after I was six years after I left high school and they said don‘t go to college, I was going to MIT as I said, principal got me in there. Ordinarily �11 they, those days, you had to take an examination; he got me in, without an examination. And for six years I did nothing. I‘d walk. I‘d walk downtown and back twice every day. That was ten miles. Finally I got so I could walk ten to fifteen miles a days. I was thin but apparently I grew too fast and I was six foot five and weighed a hundred and forty pounds. Occasionally when I‘d take the car, I had a car father gave me. But I didn‘t do anything there for six years. Then I got a job in a small company as a timekeeper. We had those calculagraph clocks you know you punch a card in out on the job. And I got to running all the machines there when they were idle I‘d see the machine idle I‘d go and run it. I had that privilege, I knew the owners, and because I‘d learned how to run practically every machine that father had you know. He had quite a machine shop there. And you can see some of the pictures here I think, I don‘t know there might be some here. Interviewer: Yes there are, I see some. Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah there‘s lots. I have lots more besides what‘s on the wall here. In the den, and I could run anything-gear cutter, building machine or lathe or any machine because after school I‘d go down there and see an idle machine and I‘d go run it. And I got so I could run and I could figure of course. The average workman, a toolmaker, or anybody working in the shop didn‘t know mathematics. They got through grade school and had to go to work. It was a necessity they had to. They didn‘t go to, very few people went to high school. They went up to the eighth grade like my father did. And of course he had the ICS course but he was an inventor. Prolific inventor I call him. Henry Ford was the same thing. But I spent an hour with Henry Ford a year before he died. It was on his problem of bearings out there. Of course I was with the Bearing Company then -FederalMogul. It was Federal Bearing and Bushing originally, they merged with Muzzy Lyon Company to form Federal-Mogul, which is in existence today. It‘s a big company. A very big company. Interviewer: How long were you with them? Mr. Blomstrom: Thirty-seven years. I went in as Chief Tool Engineer, Tool Designer, whatever you want to call it. And then I got to be Chief Engineer including the machinery, designing, tool fixtures and jigs and everything like that. And also the product engineering I had both. Now it‘s split up it‘s so big. And then I got to be Chief Engineer and then I, the last ten years, I was consulting to the president on manufacturing and engineering. Consulting engineer. Interviewer: Did you live in Detroit during all this period? Mr. Blomstrom: I lived in Detroit forty years from nineteen one to nineteen forty-one. We put up a plant in Greenville which is still there and that‘s where we put metals on the moving strip, while it‘s moving. And those were my babies. I engineered those. It took a lot of aspirin but I got them working. And there‘s nine of them now; five in Greenville and four in St. Johns. And they‘re a hundred and eighty feet long. Couldn‘t powder or babbitt on moving steel, freeze the �12 babbitt of course the copper lead it goes thru ovens. It‘s a hundred and eighty feet long from a coil of steel to a fine metal ready for the press room, form it into bearings. It‘s a very fine process. We make our own powder. That is we I said I‘m not with them now but I mean…Federal-Mogul makes their own powder. And St. Johns and we atomized molten metal you know, make it molten metal make powder out of it. Interviewer: Did you retire after you worked for Federal-Mogul you said you were willing— Mr. Blomstrom: Well, when I was sixty-five they don‘t want you anymore like General Motors, they kick you out. That‘s the customary retirement; they‘re talking about changing it now to sixty-eight or something else. Interviewer: Did you come back to Grand Rapids at that time or? Mr. Blomstrom: I came back here in fifty-five. I bought a house on Maryland. I sold that when my wife passed away. She‘s been gone—we have no children—she‘s been gone nineteen years now. And I leased this when it wasn‘t even half finished through this building. There were no walls, just a framework. And they were working on the brickwork outside. I‘ve been here, one of the first here, eight years now I‘ve been, eight or nine I guess. No, I had a house over on Maryland near, between Michigan and Fulton. Interviewer: Yes. Tell me more about your father, tell me more about his later years. Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah, I was going to tell you, you asked me about what I was doing. Well then, I worked for this little shop and got around to be the inspector there. They made tool work and some production work. And then I went with Paige Motor Car Company it was called—it wasn‘t called the Graham-Paige then, the Graham brothers hadn‘t bought it then—it was called PaigeDetroit [Motor Car Company]. It was near where we lived on the West Side. I went in there, and I‘d never take a drawing lesson in my life, but I told them I was an expert gauge designer. They wanted a gauge designer. So I got to be their chief gauge designer. I think I was about twenty-six years old or something like that. And I got along fine. From there I went to—well I was still with Paige when they built that big plant out on Warren near the Lincoln Motor Plant which is now Detroit Edison shops you know, that big building on Livernois and Warren. And, Paige was a mile further out. I don‘t know what it is now, probably Chrysler Plant or something. Well I got to be assistant tool engineer there. We had thirty-eight in the department. I was first chief checker then I got to be assistant to the Master Mechanic. He‘s the headman of tool engineering today, Master Mechanic. I got to be assistant Master Mechanic. Interviewer: Excuse me interrupting, about when was this? Mr. Blomstrom: Well it was around the war, just after the war, the First World War Interviewer: First World War �13 Mr. Blomstrom: Well I‘m getting a little ahead of my story. In the First World War I went from Paige to Lincoln Motor Car Company. They hadn‘t made a car yet, they were making their first one. You know they made the Liberty engine, the airplane engine. They made the biggest quantity around six thousand of ‗em. And Ford made some, Marmon made some, Cadillac made some, Hinkley made some. But Lincoln Motor made the bulk, there were six thousand about. Probably all the rest were about four thousand. Not a one got across to Europe you know, they were all on the coast when the war ended. Interviewer: I see Mr. Blomstrom: And honest, you could buy up for a song you know. A twelve-cylinder. ----Six separate cylinders, each one bolted. They were made of steel. And I was chief gauge inspector there under the head of all inspection. I wasn‘t the chief in the department, I was chief gauge inspector. So I got a lot of—And then from there I went to Paige. The war stopped you know in November, eighteen wasn‘t it? I believe we were only in two years. The war had been on since fourteen of course. And then I went with Paige. So it was after the war that I was there as an assistant tool engineer for… during the Depression of twenty-one there were thirty-eight of us in the department and during the Depression there was only three of us, the boss, myself, and the clerk. It was a sharp drop-off just like a cliff you know. But it started coming back, in eighteen months it was normal. But everybody was laid off except a few key people you know. But Lincoln wanted to keep me. Mr. [ Henry M.] Leland whose, was, started as one of the founders of the Cadillac Motor Car Company, he left to start the Lincoln. They were building the car in the —secret room. He gave me permission to go in there. I had a key. They were building the first car during the war there. I saw the first Lincoln. And while it was being built, as a matter-offact, I was one of the privileged to go in there. And when the war ended there you know there was a false, on Thursday you know there was a false alarm, but we didn‘t know it was a false alarm, that the war was ended. The following Monday it was the real thing! And Mr. Leland, I said, I‘m leaving, I‘m leaving, there‘s nothing here to do. We just played checkers and chess you know with thirty-six of us in that whole plant including the office. We‘d come in ten o‘clock and go out to lunch and then we‘d come back, play some more checkers or chess and go home at three o‘clock. We did that from November to March, so I got tired of playing checkers and chess. So I told him. ―No‖ he says, ―we got a good job for you. We‘re going to build a car in August, by August.‖ I said, ―Mr. Leland you can‘t tool up. It‘s going to take you a year and a half to two years to tool up.‖ Machinery wasn‘t good for that you know, what they had for the airplane engine. So, well I was right of course, he couldn‘t start in August, this was March see. So I left. He begged me to come back. In the meantime you know, Ford took it over. He had a little trouble with Wilfred Leland‘s son, Henry Leland‘s son. Leland was very nice to me; he begged me to come back. I says no, I‘m not coming back. And then Ford got hold of me—records I suppose there, and he kept pestering me for two or three years to .... He had me all signed up to be at Highland Park then you know, in the head of their gauge department. In the meantime of course, during the war there, the Bureau of Standards wanted me in Washington, which would �14 have been good experience. But my mother was ill, my father had passed away you know. So I didn‘t go. Well, they said, we‘ll send you to Franklin Arsenal in, near Philadelphia. I says no, I can‘t leave Mother. Well he said, we‘ll get you closer, Rock Island Arsenal where you‘re in the Mississippi. I said no. So they passed it up. But Ford kept writing me for years, I never went out there. Interviewer: What did you do after..? Mr. Blomstrom: Well, then I went with the Bearing Company. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Blomstrom: I been there, I was there until I retired. That was Federal Bearing and Bushing. They merged in, that was twenty-one. In twenty-four they merged with Muzzy-Lyons to form Federal-Mogul. Federal was the trade name of the Federal Bronze and Mogul was the Babbitt of Muzzy-Lyons. So they took their two trademarks and formed a corporation, Federal-Mogul. Interviewer: In what year did your father die? Mr. Blomstrom: Twenty-three. Mother died, he died in early spring and Mother died in the fall. Interviewer: I see. Had he been active up to the end? Mr. Blomstrom: Yes, yes, he was active. He was always figuring out something new you know. Interviewer: Well, do you have some other memories about the cars that your father-there‘s one picture there you said was shown in New York? Mr. Blomstrom: Well that‘s these two here. That picture‘s taken at the show; that‘s the chassis and the touring car. This is the runabout. I had one of these. Front drive car. Course they‘re quite new. There‘ve been front cars made before; old [J. Walter] Christie made a front drive racer, the fastest car in the world those days until Barney Oldfield came around with a Blitzen Benz. Interviewer: What year were those cars made? Mr. Blomstrom: Those cars? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Blomstrom: Well I think that‘s in nineteen seventeen when it‘s in the show. We started that—well I didn‘t go down there; I was home. I wasn‘t doing anything for six years. I would say it was around sixteen or seventeen. Interviewer: Was that show in New York in the armory? Mr. Blomstrom: I think it was what they called a National Armory, isn‘t it, something like that? �15 Interviewer: Well I‘ve heard they used to have shows there. Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah, that‘s right, I think so. I‘m not that certain about it, but I would think so. They had a couple places there they showed ‗em. I wasn‘t down there, Father of course was there. He‘d show the Queen car he started in Chicago at the old auditorium. He‘d stay at the Congress Hotel. The owner of the Congress Hotel and the auditorium there was this one millionaire [in] Marquette that financed the Queen. Of course we‘d go over to Chicago we‘d have free hotel rooms and dinners and everything was free. Interviewer: What was his name? Mr. Blomstrom: Well that was the Kaufman family. They were very wealthy. Interviewer: Did they live in Marquette? Mr. Blomstrom: Some of them did. Of course one of the family, the one that financed Father, was the oldest one. They married wealthy. They were smart, they married wealthy people. Louie Kaufman, one of the brothers, was in New York. He was head of the second largest bank in the United States. What was the—what is the second largest bank? I don‘t know if it is today. Interviewer: I can‘t answer your question. Mr. Blomstrom: Well, City Bank is one of them now I guess. But he was head of, he was interested in the General Motors too. He made a lot of money besides, Louie. I met him, I met him years ago. There were several brothers, four that I knew. And they all ended up pretty wealthy you know. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Blomstrom: They made a lot of money in copper you know. And married a lot of… Well, I could write a book if I‘d been around to it years ago. The editor of the Detroit Free Press, he‘s not living now, needless to say, Mr. Blomstrom, he says, you ought to write a book he says, you know more about the automobile business that anybody I‘ve ever talked to. Well I grew up with it and I have a good memory you know, and through Father‘s associations. Interviewer: Clearly. Mr. Blomstrom: And I met a lot of the people later on when I was with the Bearing Company. Did I say I met Mr. Ford, spent an hour with him, I got along fine with him. But he gets along fine with outsiders, but he‘s tough on the people who work for him. Very tough. He‘s a one man show you know. Edsel of course was my age exactly. If he‘d been living he‘d be close to eightyfive now. He was very small; he‘d only come to my shoulder you know. Ford was quite tall; he bent over in the last few years. But I got along fine with Henry Ford Interviewer: Did you know Edsel Ford too? �16 Mr. Blomstrom: No, I never met him personally. I saw him lots of times. And I‘ve seen the sons, his three sons, of course, lots of times when they were kids with knee pants. They‘d walk down Washington Boulevard and there‘d be a guard in front and back you know. When they went to school they‘d have to have guards you know, their school Yale or wherever they went. There was Henry the second, and Benson, and William…Clay, see. They were all their middle names. Well Clay was. You see, Mrs. Edsel Ford was a niece of J.L. Hudson the store man you know Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Blomstrom: And she was a Clay, her name was Clay, so that‘s where they get the Clay. William Clay, and of course the younger son married one of the Firestone. You know old Henry is their grandfather. [Harvey] Firestone and [John] Burroughs you know, the botanist or whatever he was, and [Warren G.] Harding and they went camping. I have a picture here somewhere. That‘s the first station wagon I ever saw. Ford made one just for that trip you know. They‘d go camping, six or seven of them you know. Ford would always pay the expense. And Edson, Edison, Thomas Edison, was one of that group. Interviewer: You said Burroughs, but don‘t you mean Burbank? Mr. Blomstrom: No no, I mean Burroughs. Interviewer: Oh Burroughs. Mr. Blomstrom: Burbank was the— Interviewer: You know what you‘re talking about. Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah. He was an elderly man, quite short. I have his picture here with Ford. And Harding was president, then they invited him. Thomas Edison. Ford would do that every year. And he got very close to Firestone. I think that‘s the reason why Edsel‘s youngest boy married a Firestone. He owns a football team don‘t he? The Lions? Interviewer: Yes, I believe so. Mr. Blomstrom: That‘s the youngest. Then there was girl in the family too, Josephine I think‘s her name. I don‘t know exactly. I think so. She married a Ford so she didn‘t have to change her name. Interviewer: Another Ford family as I recall. Mr. Blomstrom: It‘s the Ford-Alkali, Michigan Alkali, or Wyandotte Chemicals now. They were very wealthy people. That‘s the Ford of Libbey-Owens-Ford family Toledo, the plate glass people. Interviewer: I see. �17 Mr. Blomstrom: It‘s not the Ford automobile people. No connection. No connection. And that Ford building in Detroit‘s the same way. That‘s not the Ford automobile man, that‘s the FordAlkali, I call ‗em Alkali because it was the Michigan Alkali in Wyandotte you know. Now it‘s Wyandotte Chemicals. They make products for making glass, they supplied the elements. There‘s a famous Ford family in Toledo, Pittsburgh plate glass and Libbey-Owens-Ford family. That‘s a different family entirely. See Father made the cars before Ford. Well of course he made that one. He made one here in Grand Rapids in ninety-two, but I‘ve never checked with the newspapers if it‘s in there. He was working with the Perkins Machine shop on Front Street. They just tore that building down, of course they‘ve been gone for years, when they made the freeway through there. Front Street is jogged there somewheres. Then he went to Marquette in ninetyseven. Well he was quite a smart duck considering he didn‘t have any education. He had both feet on the ground like Kettering, ―Boss‖ Kettering, Charles Kettering. He was a great fellow; I used to go and visit him. He had both feet on the ground. They‘re so interested in developing new things that they never stop to make any money. That is a beautiful drawing isn‘t it? I don‘t know what I‘m going to do with that. Interviewer: It says, The Lion Forty Power Plant. Mr. Blomstrom: Well, that was the old SAE rating. England still uses that rating. What you do, you square the bore, if it‘s a five inch cylinder you square it, that‘s five times five is twenty-five, multiply by the number of cylinders four, that‘d be a hundred, divided by two and a half, that‘s where you get forty see. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Blomstrom: Get it? Interviewer: I get it. Mr. Blomstrom: Well they still use that in England, we don‘t, we use the brake horsepower. Test it on a brake dynamometer. Actual horsepower of course, they take off the water pump and the generator. Actually, the horsepower‘s not what they say it is because they take off some things that take horsepower, your water pump and your generator and that stuff. But it‘s brake horsepower, actually torque. Testing torque. That‘s what brake horsepower is, testing torque. Foot pounds. Well the horsepower is 33,000 foot pounds. Interviewer: I keep thinking of things about that car in the museum. I went to see it; I think it was yesterday afternoon, because it‘s locked up in a room there. Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah, they had it on display two years in a glass – in the entrance to that looking at the stars stuff. It was beautiful there. But they, they got this room, and it‘s all cluttered up. It‘s typical of nineteen hundred. It‘s an old blacksmith shop or something. Interviewer: How fast would that car go? �18 Mr. Blomstrom: Thirty-five miles an hour. Interviewer: Oh really? Mr. Blomstrom: That‘s about all it would do. Interviewer: Well that‘s pretty fast. Mr. Blomstrom: We had motor, we had bicycle police, traffic cops in Detroit, on Belle Isle. They couldn‘t catch me. They couldn‘t pedal. What they‘d do, they‘d cross the Island and catch me on the other side. That‘s the way they‘d put their bicycles; they‘d get another cop, and they‘d put their bicycles on the ground, and I‘d have to go out on the grass, which is not permitted. They‘d take me over to the station, there‘s a station on Belle Isle. Been there ever since I can remember. And get another policeman and they‘d cross the Island midway, and I‘d go way around the tip of the island. And they‘d catch me on the other side of the island. They had their bicycles on the road, the roads weren‘t very wide. And of course in order to go by them I‘d have to go out on the grass, and of course they stood about each side there. So then they‘d take me over to the police station on Belle Island, been one there ever since—still there as far as I know. Of course then I would tell Dad. He says forget it, which I did. He knew all the judges I guess. They used to come down and borrow the boats on Friday, go up to the flats. I knew every judge because they‘d come down there on a Friday afternoon after court and get one of those boats and go up to the flats. A whole bunch of judges. Interviewer: Where were the flats located? Mr. Blomstrom: That‘s the beginning of the St. Clair River. It‘s at the north end of Lake St. Clair. You went through St. Clair River. The flats is the first part. It‘s swampy and islands, so dozens of islands there. There‘s that big Indian island there, the Walpole. It‘s across from that park where the boat used to go up to ___ park. That‘s below Algonac, see. Algonac is where Gar [Garfield] Wood is. We built the propellers for Gar Wood‘s, all his speed boats. He had the world‘s record until now; we‘ve gone way beyond it. This fellow out in Lake Washington in Seattle has gone, what is it, over two hundred miles an hour I guess. Of course they‘re really not boats anymore, they‘re practically out of the water, they‘re hydroplanes! They have steps in them. But we built them for Gar Wood and well, he had the world‘s record, a hundred and twenty-six miles. We built all the propellers and most of the --- tugboats we built the propellers. We sold that to Michigan Wheel; I say we, it‘s Federal-Mogul. Michigan Wheel still makes a Federal equipoise propeller, which we had a patent on. Most of the --- tugboats used to buy them from us, I don‘t know if they‘re buying them from Michigan now. Michigan‘s right here in town. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Blomstrom: Its part of a, I don‘t know if some corporation has bought them out. Interviewer: Yeah. It used to be that Mr. Evenson was president of it. Charles. �19 Mr. Blomstrom: I don‘t know. I met a lot of them when they were considering about, something about a machine they were building for to machine the propellers, the production. Course they use it for making patterns, I know. But they were going to make a machine to do the production, which according to me is not according to ―Hoyle‖. It‘s not necessary. You know the pitch, the pitch is the one turn is a pitch, like a thread. The ones we made for Gar Wood were only seventeen inches in diameter but was twenty inch pitch. They had two of them, one going this way and one going opposite so his boat wouldn‘t tip over, see. Like the English[man]… Kaye Don tipped over. I watched him, I saw his boat tip right over. He got in the wave of a Gar Wood boat that was leaving, and his propeller come out of the water, there was no resistance. And the torque of that just took his boat, which was very light, and tipped it right over and he went in the drink. I saw it. I was only five hundred feet away from it when it happened. Well Gar Wood was smart, he put two propellers on, going in the opposite direction, so you didn‘t get that chance of tipping over if the wheels went out of the water. He was smart, smart old duck. He died, didn‘t he, a little while ago? I think so. Interviewer: I don‘t know. Mr. Blomstrom: He was very old. I knew him, met him. Course they had the Gar Wood... they made that dump truck, hydraulic dump truck. We made a lot of parts for them. I knew all the brothers. There was a bunch of brothers! There were about pretty near as many of them as the Fisher brothers. They were seven I guess. I knew a couple of them, Ed the youngest. Interviewer: I think you ought to write that book. Mr. Blomstrom: Well, a lot of people have said that. I think Mr. Frankfurter said it too, and some of the other people. I did write a book on bearings for the company. Millions of those were sent out. It‘s a very small book. It‘s been in most of the libraries now around the country. Some people wanted a thousand. The Ordinance Department, where is that, Fort Benning in Georgia where they had the Ordinance? Well a major came up from there one day, I didn‘t know he was coming, and the office wanted to see Mr. Blomstrom. The girl says, there‘s a major from Fort Benning here. He wanted a thousand of those little books. They were just small, about Reader‘s Digest, you could just stick it in your pocket. It was run serially in an automobile magazine for eight months. So we give him a thousand, it didn‘t cost much. They‘re in most of the universities, they wrote, they sent. Course now they put out a hardcover, but this was just soft cover. But it was about probably the first small bearing book on servicing, you know taking care of bearings, automobile engine bearings, not ball or roller bearings. So that‘s the only writing. It‘s difficult for me to write, but I suppose I should. It‘s too late now, I guess. Interviewer: You could always dictate it. Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah, I bought a machine, I have a machine. I bought it for that purpose. I haven‘t used it but once I guess, twice, but not for that purpose. I bought a machine, nothing as �20 elaborate as your machine here. It‘s just a simple…has about the same kind of a microphone I guess. Micro—what do you call it? Interviewer: No, it‘s a microphone, yes. Mr. Blomstrom: Yes, I have that. Some of them have it built right into the case. I see some of the new ones advertised. Yeah, I have one. Interviewer: How do you keep busy these days? Mr. Blomstrom: Well I‘m rummaging see, getting stuff here. I‘m going to dispose of a lot of books and things. I don‘t know what I‘m going to do with all these pictures; of course Mr. Frankfurter would like them. I don‘t if he ever saw this; I don‘t think I had that at the museum. These others I had at the museum for a couple years, until they moved the Queen car where it is now. Interviewer: I see. You said your cousin restored that car? Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah, I think a second or third cousin. Interviewer: Who‘s he? Mr. Blomstrom: His name is Bloomstrom, they put too many o‘s in it. He lives in Sparta, Michigan. He works here in Grand Rapids. He works in the furniture business - woodwork. He‘s a young fellow, compared to me of course, he‘s about half my age. But he‘s restored a lot of cars, for himself and for others. He does a beautiful job. Interviewer: But you were the one who actually found it? Mr. Blomstrom: Oh yes. Well, one of our people at the—we have a, Federal-Mogul had a plant at Lancaster, that‘s the Amish town you know. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Blomstrom: He says there‘s a Queen car over here. And this fellow had an old car, one very rare car. Everybody down there has an old car. Every town has people who recondition old cars... a Lancaster and Valley Forge and around Pennsylvania. So he says there‘s a Queen car over here. Well, I says, can you find out when it‘s convenient to see it? Yeah. I‘d been looking for one; I‘d located seven you know, which is pretty good for being that old. They run from—there‘s this nineteen six four cylinder in Detroit, he won‘t sell it to me. He has the largest collection of old cars in the world. The magazines say he has six hundred, he told me he has a thousand. I believe it because they‘re in sheds. If you put up in a straight line or in a U they‘d be eight hundred feet long and he‘s got five deep standing on the ends. So he says bring down a suit, you know get a suit, a coverall suit. So I stopped at Sears Roebuck in Highland Park there and bought one. The only time I ever used it, I gave it to a customer. And he says I‘ve got one of your �21 father‘s cars. I says what is it? He says it‘s a four cylinder nineteen six Queen. Looked like a Packard you know. There‘s a four cylinder up there and to the left, at the top, see it looks like a Packard. Now maybe, I don‘t know who swiped who, but, they were swiping designs those days as they are today. And everybody you‘d show that car too would say that‘s a Packard, and it was a Queen, four cylinder. Well anyway. I got off the track. Interviewer: Well, you were going to go look at these cars. Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah, well, I bought that and on the way over there, he says, Mr.—we call him Barney Pullerd, P-U-L-L-E-R-D, I guess he‘s still living. He has the largest collection of old cars in the world. The last time he called me up here, two years ago, about seven, eight years ago he says when you gonna write that story about your father for me? Cause he wants it you know. Well, I says, I haven‘t got around to it. He says, I‘m gonna put up a building now, he says, and I‘m going to show all my cars in a museum and charge like all the others are doing, Florida and out west. I don‘t know if he‘s done it, I haven‘t talked to him for seven, eight years. He has, the oldest car is a German eighteen ninety-seven, and all his cars are real old, I mean none of this new stuff, twenty, thirty years, they‘re all old. From eighteen ninety-seven, I would say, to nineteen twenty probably. He has almost every car imaginable. He‘s still looking for a Lion car. I haven‘t told him I located one in this museum out by Rushmore. He‘s probably found out. He‘s advertised in every…he says, that was the finest car your father built, he says, that would outrun any car even a Stutz in those days. Interviewer: How many Lions were built? Mr. Blomstrom: Well I don‘t know exactly. I would say it‘s between a thousand and fifteen hundred. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Blomstrom: You see, the Queen cars there were only ten a week made. It was all hand work practically. He bought the bodies and a lot of the other axels. The axels were made by WestonMott in Flint, you know that‘s Mott, you heard-Interviewer: Yes, sure. Mr. Blomstrom: Mott. The General Motors had more stock than anybody else outside of the Dupont family. I met him; I saved the life of his financial secretary twice by giving him blood you know. I had a hemolytic strep and it took me three years to come back on that. I lost seventy pounds, I was in Harper Hospital. I gave blood side-by-side in bed to this fellow twice and saved him. They looked all the records of the hospitals over Michigan and I was the only one who could save this boy‘s life. You got to give him blood serum within twelve months when you fought it off. They found my name and they got me to give him some blood and in a week he was on his way to Arizona, and riding horseback in two weeks. The next year he got pneumonia �22 and I gave him some more blood cause the same thing happened. I met Charlie Mott there, he was tall as I was, six foot five. I thought he‘d give me a million bucks, but he never did. Well, the Queen car had Weston-Mott axels front and rear; they were made in Flint. They moved from Elmira, New York, I believe it is, somewheres in New York State, to Flint. That‘s how he got there. And of course, General Motors bought the plant and he got stock, and he never sold his share, he kept it, so now it‘s being sold. Well he was getting there at one time an awful lot, several million dollars in dividends every year when it used to be two dollars or something. Yeah, he had more stock I think than any individual, but the Dupont family probably had more as a family. Interviewer: Did you like Mott personally? Mr. Blomstrom: I only met him as his secretary, financial secretary. I seen him lots of times, but I never met him. I used to go up to Chevrolet and Buick, of course we made bearings, some of them, for them. Not so much Buick, but one time we made forty percent of the Chevrolet until they make their own now I guess down in Dayton Ohio, Moraine Products. I knew two of the Chevrolet brothers, you know there were three: Gaston, Arthur, and Louie. The last time I talked to Louie, he was assembling front drives on those twelve cars that Edsel ordered for Harry Miller for the Indianapolis track. He wanted me to design the bearings for him, I did, which I did, they were special. See they go up to seventy-two hundred rpm, those four cylinder Millers. Harry Miller came to my office and he had Preston Tucker with him. He introduced me to him. Of course the big thing, they say he designed the Tucker car. He didn‘t design that any more than I did. He was an expediter that‘s all he was, he was no engineer, Tucker. I knew him quite well. And I got to meet Harry Miller. We made bearings…There was five cars that were got down to the Indianapolis track, but they had other front end troubles, steering gear trouble, none of them finished the Ford cars. The old man didn‘t know about it I guess. They assembled them in a building down on, West Lafayette there, about a mile from town. I was down there quite often. Preston Tucker was a handsome fellow. He died quite young, in the forties wasn‘t it? Low forties? Interviewer: I think so. Mr. Blomstrom: I talked to him over there in Chicago. They showed the car there in that big building that Dodge ran during the war making engines. He was quite a talker. They raised a lot of money but a lot of people lost a lot of money too. They sold a lot of stock. Anybody who wanted to handle the car, dealer had to put down four thousand dollars I believe, something like that. Don‘t quote me too much on that. What are you going to do with this? Interviewer: This will go to the, well I‘m sure the museum wants a copy of it, and a copy will go to the Grand Valley State Colleges. Mr. Blomstrom: Are they interested in this? �23 Interviewer: They have an oral history department. Mr. Blomstrom: I see. Interviewer: So, you‘ll be talking for the next few hundred years. Mr. Blomstrom: The Swedes in Detroit, what they call the Detroit Council, Swedish Council Incorporated, I know fifty percent of them, of course I could have been a charter member if I‘d a stayed in Detroit. They just wrote a book last year as a project for the centennial, or was it bicentennial isn‘t it? I have a copy here. They have quite a write-up about my father in there, and they mention me too, and my father-in-law, he‘s right on the first page. He was one of the founders of the Mamrelund church up here. Interviewer: What‘s the name of the book? Mr. Blomstrom: They Made a Difference. Interviewer: They Made a Difference. Who published it, do you know? Mr. Blomstrom: Aaronson, but I buy it through the friend of mine who‘s the secretary of the Detroit Swedish Council, Signe Carlstrom I know her. Interviewer: I presume that the local library would have a copy. Mr. Blomstrom: I don‘t know. I bought several of the books to give to my nephews and nieces. Of course what I was going to tell you was that it was a special project because of the king‘s visit here. He was here last summer. Interviwer: Yeah. Mr. Blomstrom: Karl Gustof. Every Swedish king has got Karl Gustof in their name. That was my grandfather‘s name, Karl Gustof Blomstrom. So they gave him several books, so my name and my father‘s name and a lot of my relatives are in that palace in Stockholm. Well, they just happened to put my name in, they got my father‘s write-up. In fact, this fellow that retired just last year, the vice-chairman of General Motors Oscar Lundeen wrote it with – Jones, who was the head of the big advertising agency there in Bloomfield Village, Bloomfield Center. Jones. I don‘t know him, of course I know Oscar Lundeen real well. I‘ve known him since he was that high; I knew his parents. I knew the three boys. One of them designed that Union Trust Building downtown, Earl Lundeen. Interviewer: Which building is that? Mr. Blomstrom: The Union Bank and Trust. Interviewer: Union Bank. The new building? �24 Mr. Blomstrom: Well yeah, it‘s quite new. I don‘t know about the little building alongside, that‘s named after the chairman isn‘t it? Frye Building. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Blomstrom: But that‘s designed by Earl Lundeen. He and another fellow have a corporation in New York City. That‘s Oscar‘s brother. There was three boys; I knew them all. There was Edward, the youngest, Earl, and Oscar. Interviewer: They were all in Detroit I take it? Mr. Blomstrom: Oh yeah. Their father was the superintendent of the Detroit Screw Works and then he went later, when he retired he went into real estate. But the boys have all done good. Three boys. Well Oscar of course is a millionaire. He wrote this, and they start off with my father, see, way back when designing the Queen car and building it. Interviewer: Well we‘ve talked for about an hour I think, and I think maybe it‘s about time for me to go home. Mr. Blomstrom: Well if you want some more, just feel free to call up and come out. Interviewer: I‘ll tell you, I‘ll play it back and see if I can-Mr. Blomstrom: I think it‘s too much of myself and not my father. Interviewer: Maybe I can find that book and then read about your father and then come back and ask you some more questions. Mr. Blomstrom: Well it‘s just a page or two in there about him. It‘s on the first page. Of course, they asked me last year to write about my father, but I was very miserable, I‘d been in the hospital and I didn‘t write. They don‘t need to write to me about it anyway, all they got to do is go the library, which they must have done because they got stuff there that I sent to the library, word for word! Interviewer: Thank you very, very much. I appreciate this. It‘s been a very interesting hour. Mr. Blomstrom: Well I bore people to death talking automobiles. Interviewer: No, not at all. Mr. Blomstrom: I wish I was a good writer, I could write a book. I knew most of the early people. The only one I didn‘t know was R.E. Olds, Ransom E. Olds. I know the history of the company and all that. You see, he made the first car in Michigan, R.E. Olds, Ransom E. Olds. That‘s his initials, R.E. O. for the REO you know. Interviewer: Yes. �25 Mr. Blomstrom: He quit the business you know. He was going to have cattle up north here. He bought a ranch up here, or it‘s called a ranch. But his cronies in Lansing got him back to start the REO. Of course it sold out long ago; the family isn‘t in it anymore. General Motors, of course— no it‘s not, it was White, they were independent weren‘t they? There‘s White Motors and then Diamond T Motors, and then now I guess it‘s gone. It was a good car, a big heavy car like the old Pierce Arrow and the Locomobile. They were built like a locomobile, locomotive, heavy you know, big heavy cars. Interviewer: Ok. A G American Motors · 3 General Motors · 3, 12, 16, 22, 24, 26 Grumback, John · 8 B Belle Isle · 11, 19 Blomstrom Motor Company · 2 Blomstrom Thirty · 2 Blomstrom, Carl G. (Grandfather) · 6, 8, 9, 24 Blomstrom, Carl Herman (Father) · 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 22, 24, 25 Bloomer Hill · 7, 8 K Kaufman Family · 16 Kettering, Charles · 18 L Detroit Swedish Council · 24 Dupont Family · 22, 23 Leland, Henry M. · 14 Libbey-Owens-Ford Family · 17, 18 Lincoln Motor Car Company · 13, 14 Lion car · 4, 18, 22 Lundeen Family · 24, 25 E M Edison, Thomas · 10, 13, 17 Miller, Harry · 23 Mott, Charlie · 22, 23 D F Federal-Mogul Company · 12, 15, 19, 21 Ford Motor Company · 3, 5, 10, 13, 14, 17, 18, 23 Ford, Edsel · 16, 17, 23 Ford, Henry · 10, 11 Frontmobile · 3 O Old Lion Fence Company · 4 P Paige Motor Car Company · 13 Pullerd, Barney · 22 �26 Q T Queen car · 2, 4, 5, 15, 21, 22, 23, 25 Tucker, Preston · 23 R W Rex (car) · 3 Weston-Mott · 22, 23 Wood, Garfield · 19, 20 Wyandotte Chemicals · 17 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5974db0100116cc68e025d1077512441.mp3 c8bc4c4fcba754dc9dc84b7d455f4032 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_56Blomstrom Title A name given to the resource Blomstrom, Lowell Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Blomstrom, Lowell Description An account of the resource Lowell Blomstrom was born on March 22, 1893 in Grand Rapids. His father was an inventor and pioneer in the automobile industry. In 1904 Carl Blomstrom introduced the Queen Automobile produced in Detroit by the Blomstrom Motor Company. Lowell Blomstrom also worked in the automobile industry. He died in 1979. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1977 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aa3d4b9750ee64551215126b8fa131b7.pdf 39dab203a8b5fbaba993c1bbe32e0f43 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Cary, John Interviewed on September 27, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #18 & 19 (1:08:16) Biographical Information John Cornelius Cary was the son of Cornelius “Neal” Cary and Julia A. Lynch. Neal Cary was born in Vergennes Township, Kent County in January 1861, the son of Patrick Cary and Catharine Boylen. Julia was born in October 1861 in Kent County, Michigan, the daughter of Jeremiah Lynch and Julia Harrington. Neal married Julia Lynch in Grand Rapids on 27 October 1896. John C. Cary was born 2 October 1897 in Grand Rapids. About 1926, he married Helen M. Wren. Helen died 6 June 1972 and John passed away five years later on 1 June 1977. They are buried in Woodlawn Cemetery in Grand Rapids. ___________ Interviewer: Were you born in Grand Rapids, Mr. Cary? Mr. Cary: Yes, I was, in October second, eighteen ninety-seven on, what was then, Central Avenue, now Sheldon Street. And it was the fifth house north of Fifth Avenue, so called at that time, now Franklin Street. It was on the east side of the street, and the house was torn down some eight, ten years ago, the entire area from Franklin Street, north to Sycamore and Sheldon, east of Jefferson, has been completely torn down, for a new project either a housing development project or an extension of the Sheldon Complex. When I was five years old we moved from there to a house on the west side of Cass Avenue between Hall and Delaware. Dr. Long, who was quite a prominent physician in the South End as it was called in the south part of Grand Rapids, it was, lived on the corner, the southwest….or the northwest corner of Cass Avenue and Delaware. It was called Eighth Avenue then, under the old numbering system. And next to us was a Mrs. was the VanderVelde family, and she was a half-sister of Adrian Otte, who, with his brother John Otte, organized the American Laundry Company, which was existing then on Division, at the corner of Haifley and Division. We lived there from the time I was five years old until I graduated from the law school at the University of Michigan in nineteen twenty-two. Interviewer: Were your parents born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Cary: My mother, yes. My mother was born blessed Julia Lynch. She was a part of the Irish laboring people who built what was called the South Railroad into Grand Rapids. I‟ve never been able to determine what they meant by the South Railroad, but I think it was the Grand Rapids and Indiana Railroad. Those Irish laborers who worked on the railroad, and I had an uncle, Timothy Lynch, who was sort of a section boss of those people who laid the tracks and ties and spiked „em and so on. A group of them settled in the southwest part of Grand Rapids. My grandfather had an opportunity to buy some land around the swamp, which is, was located about where the Union Depot was subsequently built which is no more because of the expressway. But he wanted to be on the high ground so he bought five acres from Noyes Avery, �2 I can‟t tell you the year but it was before my mother was born in eighteen fifty-nine and built a house, which still exists on Jerome Street running north of Burton on the high hill east of the railroad tracks as they cross there. Interviewer: And the house still stands? Mr. Cary: The house still stands. Not on the original site, subsequently my mother and father platted that into the Lynch-Cary addition, and it was moved to the corner of Jerome Street, and it was called Jerome Street because the city wouldn‟t allow my mother to name it Jeremiah, which was my Grandfather‟s given name. And, so, mother was born there in eighteen fifty-nine, and then my father was born in Sect.., on Section seven of Vergennes Township. My grandfather, Patrick Cary, also by legend, was, did some work, or worked on the Erie Canal, came through into Ohio and was, lived there for a short period and, in eighteen forty or eighteen forty-two when he entered some sections in for Vergennes Township, Section seven, parts of section, I should say he gave his residence as Marshall, Michigan. The only connection that I can get to that is that he was a laborer on the, what is now, the Michigan Central, or Penn Central Railroad running from Detroit thru Ann Arbor, Jackson, Battle Creek, Marshall, Kalamazoo into Niles and into Chicago. Sometime after that he moved and settled on the land in Vergennes Township and my father was born there in eighteen sixty-one and lived there until he became a young man, came to Grand Rapids and went to work for the Judson Grocery Company and alternately as a shipping clerk, ultimately he became what they called in those days, a broom peddler. He was a traveling salesman for the Judson Grocery Company, and his territory was from White Cloud on the Pere Marquette to Thompsonville north, and from Reed City on the GR & I to Cadillac and west of Lake Michigan including Ludington, Baldwin, Wallahalla, Sherman, Scottville, Mesick and many towns that were built because the lumbering industry which existed. Interviewer: Was the Judson Grocery Store, was that the wholesale house? Mr. Cary: Yes. It was located at right as I, my earliest recollection of it was at the corner of Ottawa and Louis Street, more close to the corner. Subsequently, Mr. Judson built the building [now the B.O.B.] on Market Street just off from the corner of Fulton and that building was operated by the Judson Grocery Company until about nineteen twenty-seven or twenty-eight and after Mr. Judson‟s death, who was a very staunch ardent Republican, it was sold to William Cady and William Cady operated it there and subsequently on Jefferson Avenue in the old Wilmarth, Welch-Wilmarth Showcase Factory, on Jefferson, east of Macey‟s and at the railroad, Pere-Marquette railroad tracks. I think your grandfather and McInerney subsequently occupied some part of that area for his client before he moved to Godfrey Avenue as a result of a fire. Interviewer: Was there, you‟re an Irishman? Mr. Cary: Yes Interviewer: Did the Irish have a kind of particular area in the town that they lived in? Mr. Cary: Yes. There were two predominately Irish settlements. The Irish immigration to Grand Rapids was the first economic, ethnic migration. By that I mean that the German migration to Grand Rapids was the first ethnic group, was a political migration; they didn‟t want their sons to be a part of the imperial German Army that Bismarck had invented. The whole [exolerance?] were planning for Germany and so the German migration was to Grand Rapids, �3 was similar to the one to Cincinnati, Milwaukee, St. Louis and so on. So that, that is why the two most prominent department stores in Grand Rapids carry German names, Herpolsheimer and Wurzburg, and they were a part of that early migration and their migration was not because the economic conditions. The Irish migration was and they were the common laborers of the United States at that time. And the railroads were being built at that time and the Irish built the railroads. And the two prominent places in Grand Rapids were the area around the D & M Depot at Plainfield and the, what had got to the railroad got that far, the Irish who did, worked for the railroad settled in the area around Leonard, Plainfield, Carrier and all of that territory there. And I, it‟s an assumption on my part, that St. Alphonsus church, was erected in that area because of the fact that the Irish-Catholic people who lived in that area. The other Irish settlement was as a result of the railroads coming in from the south as I spoke of before and they settled in what was the First Ward, which was around Ellsworth, Grandville around Number Six Engine House, over there and up Grandville Avenue there. And also, along Clyde Park from Grandville south and most of those people had large families and to supplement their economy they had several of them had five acres running from Clyde Park through to Century and at that time Century, when I went out to visit my grand uncles out on Clyde Park Avenue there was no Century Avenue and subsequently after the Rathbone Mantle and Fireplace [Manufacturing] was erected on Clyde Park Avenue which would now be a little south of where the Kelvinator plant is and after the Leonards moved their ice-box manufacturing place to what is now the Kelvinator, why the Irish plotted those areas, and that‟s why you have Holmes Street, Lynch Street and you get streets that up there Shamrock and Emerald and McKendrick, various other real Irish names. For many years Thirty-Sixth Street or Thirty or Forty-Fourth Street was called Daly and the Dalys and the Lynches were intermarried and I can‟t tell you the relationship of the Dalys, but they had a large farm and near where the Reynolds plant is now, which was the heart of the site of the old gas[?] plant, which was a started building during the First World War, and never got finished. [Louis Lynch in 1893 married Julia Daly in Grand Rapids.] Interviewer: Well what was the downtown, what did you do as a child? You mentioned that you, kind of hung around the streets, were kind of an urchin, what…. Mr. Cary: Well I, I didn‟t decay around the streets, my parents wouldn‟t let me, but as a kid and I‟m sure, I was six years old, I went to St. Andrews school, which was then at the corner of Maple and Sheldon, and from our house on Cass Avenue to there was a mile and a quarter and we walked it four times a day, „walked‟ is used in bicycling because it was probably running not to be late, and I don‟t think that there was a fence in any of that area that I or my companions hadn‟t jumped, in one way or another by being chased out of the yard or because we were in a hurry. And, but some of the other people that lived in that area were Bill Morrissey and his brother Leo, who died while the boys were in school. Bill Morrissey became the owner of the Fanitorium and he was a fight promoter and recreation and built up recreation facilities in Grand Rapids as he came to manhood following the First World War. Another family who was from that area and were closely associated with Morrissey was the Pipp family, who were very large, had a very large family. The older boy, Ben, became a priest, I don‟t know whether he was a secular priest or he belonged to an order, I‟ve forgotten that, but his brother, Wally, became a member of the New York Yankees, played first base and was pushed out of his job by the famous Hank Gehrig. And Wally was in, and I met him in, at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, when we were both in the Naval Flying Corp and there were several of the New York Yankees in the ….well… We studied at M.I.T., but it would probably to designate it �4 would, would say it was what was ground school now in the Naval period of the Second World War and he was there and a fellow by the name of [Leslie] Nunamaker was there and on both the False Armistice on the fourth of November in nineteen eighteen and then the real one on March eleventh, nineteen eighteen in my particular squad, marching in the parade in Boston, at that time, was a famous baseball player by the name of Tris Speaker. You want to shut that off a minute? Interviewer: Sure. Did you see the, what was the former Post Office, which is now the Federal Building? Mr. Cary: Yes. Interviewer: Did you see that dedication? The dedication of that building? Mr. Cary: Yes. Yes. Interviewer: Can you tell me about that, why you were there and so on? Mr. Cary: Well, I was there because it was, we were let out of school and we were let out of school to go to that affair and it was a real civic celebration for Grand Rapids to have a building as nice as that and so on. I, of course, had no conception that it was a nice building, at that time. There were other kids there and people of prominence were there and we were probably making nuisances of ourselves, crowding in and so on to watch of course. Teddy Roosevelt was, was a national and international figure of those days and his experience and his fame as a Rough Rider were carried by every youngster of that time. And to have his daughter in town for an affair of that kind was a real event. There was also Vice-President Sherman, was here for that affair. And it was Sunny Jim, so called, “Sunny Jim” Sherman, former senator from New York, and not John Sherman, the brother of William Tecumseh Sherman, the general, who was in the Senate and who was in the Congress of the United States, from the time in the Civil War until his death, which I, it was after the turn of the century, but I don‟t remember just when. Interviewer: Why, you mentioned to me before when we were talking that the sisters down at St. Andrews had something against Alice Roosevelt. What, what was that? Mr. Cary: Well, at that time, cigarette smoking by women was a real evil thing; many people thought it was that. And Alice Roosevelt had a reputation at that time as being a cigarette smoker, and she smoked in public. She was always one, and still is, too, she is quite famous for her vitriolic remarks of one kind or another, about a Governor Dewey of New York and some of the other national figures that she didn‟t completely care for, and she was not one to take a back seat and if she wanted to smoke cigarettes, why she smoke cigarettes. And it made it was long worth from Cincinnati, she had money enough to smoke cigarettes when she wanted to. Interviewer: Was there a common, a common thing in those days, for like for example, the dedication of a federal building, to have a city-wide celebration? Mr. Cary: Yes and they….Grand Rapids was predominately a Republican community and whether it was a result of the Civil War or not, I don‟t know, but it was predominately Republican. And the Coliseum which was built by Heystek on Commerce Street between Oakes and Cherry along about nineteen seven or eight and [Charles] Jandorf, who had a delicatessen �5 store on Monroe Avenue would be just immediately west of Peck‟s Drug Store, which was at, was at the corner of Division and Monroe at the northwest corner, was the caterer for most of those affairs. And they would have the William Alden Smith, who was a senator after nineteen seven, priding himself on bringing some of the most famous and popular Republicans to the Lincoln-Day banquets of that time. And my father because of Mr. Gibson‟s prominence in the Republican Party was probably given tickets to those banquets, usually held on Friday night, when he would come in off his northern route with a [ ?]. You know that my father wasn‟t enough of a political person to have spent the, the money that was charged for those, there were six of us children, and he just didn‟t have that kind of money to pay for affairs of that kind. Interviewer: The Coliseum, is that still standing? Mr. Cary: Yes. It‟s, it‟s mentioned in the downtown Grand Rapids eighteen thirty – nineteen ten, I think it was the Heystek building. It was, you guess, it was at, it was originally, its site was there on Commerce. Sometime later they acquired some property on Division Street and an annex was built out to Division, but for, from its inception for many years thereafter, it was on Commerce Street. And as kids, on Saturday morning, and that‟s true of most of the kids that, that went to Central, Division Avenue School, St. Andrews, Fountain Street School, in those schools, who were all fifteen [to] sixteen years of age, would go to the Coliseum on Saturday morning to roller skate. It was a real recreation spot, at that particular time. Interviewer: Was there much difference between the downtown of those days and the downtown of today? Mr. Cary: Not much really. They, Grand Rapids was always a one-street town, Monroe Avenue. And it used to, I would imagine that they used to drive carriages down Monroe Avenue to show off. And I know when I was a young boy anybody that had an automobile drove it down Monroe Avenue and when we got into high school and in early days of college, if you were out on the prowl for picking up some girls, why if you had a car or could borrow or get someone else, ride in someone else‟s why you went down there on Monroe Avenue to show off. And that was still the situation until they put the mall in, and they fairly well eliminated that, for the time being. Interviewer: What were the, was the, the commercial establishments, pretty much the same or were there some differences there? For example, grocery companies; I don‟t believe there are any groceries companies downtown now, are there? Mr. Cary: Well are you speaking of retail or wholesale groceries? Interviewer: Both. Mr. Cary: Well, there were many wholesale groceries in those days. In addition to the Judson, which my family was connected, a short distance away at the corner of Weston and Ottawa, why the northwest corner was the Worden Grocery Company that, I don‟t know who Mr. Worden [A. E. Worden] was or what the connection is, but Guy Rouse, the „Winchesters, were active in that business at the time that I speak of, the Judson Grocery Company, which would be from oh, nineteen seven to nineteen twenty-seven, a twenty year period. Another one that was, that I remember of at that time which was on Ionia Street across from William Alden Smith building between what is now Weston Street and Fulton, was the Musselman Grocery Company, and that �6 was headed by Amos Musselman, who was a very prominent man at that time. At the corner of, on the northwest corner of, Ionia and Weston, where Quimby-Kain is now, was the wholesale grocery house of Lemon and Wheeler and that, that I don‟t know much about Mr. Wheeler, but Sam Lemon was well known at that time and it was his early Greek revival house of red brick and white pillars on Jefferson, on the east side of Jefferson that was, has been recently occupied by the O‟Brien funeral home, was the home of Sam Lemon. A little further south, on Jefferson, at that time, was another Greek revival house, which had been torn down, unfortunately, which was the home of Jacob Kleinhans. He was a very prominent lawyer in the law firm of Kleinhans, Knappen, Kleinhans, Knappen and Kleinhans. Knappen became the United States Court Judge of appeals and Kleinhans was a very prominent lawyer around the early nineteen ten and earlier in that time and Stuart Knappen, the son of the judge was a member of that firm, and that firm and its successors exist today in Wheeler, Upham, Uhl, and Bryant. But to go back to the wholesale grocery houses, at the, at the southeast corner of, of Ionia and Weston, what is now the Morse [Dry Goods] building, formerly the Transportation Building. That was, I think, originally built for wholesale grocery and wholesale hardware store. M.J. Clark, the donator of the Clark Memorial home of the Methodist Preachers on Sherman Street was involved in two companies there, Clark-Rutka-Weaver [actually hardware firm, not grocery] and Clark-Jewell-Wells. I can‟t tell… (break in the taping) … [Recording skips to a later portion of transcript. See beginning of Side Two] I was speaking of M.J. Clark and his company. I can‟t distinguish between which was the wholesale hardware firm and which was the wholesale grocery firm. The Judson Grocery Company bought out, I think it was Clark-Jewell-Wells. I think that was the grocery company but I wouldn‟t be firm about that. And that became a part of the Judson Grocery Company sometime during my boyhood days. Another company that was absorbed by Judson Grocery Company and wholesale house, and this was before my…any knowledge of it. I used to see the sign, an old sign that they had in the drive in of the Judson grocery company. The Ball Barnhart Putnam Company; it was a wholesale grocery company. And Mr. O[rson]. A. Ball, who was a son or a nephew of John Ball of John Ball Park, was one of the officers of the Judson Grocery Company, subsequent to that buyout or merger of the Ball Barnhart Putnam Company. Mrs. William Judson the First was a Barnhart and it may have been some family connection there that caused the absorption, but that I have no knowledge of. But I think Worden absorbed various wholesale grocery houses but you ask about places, food places, on the Monroe Avenue there was one called Dutton Taylors, which was a very fine market, large grocery store and market and it was in the block west of Peck‟s drugstore on the corner of, and I use that as a fixing point because most everybody knows where Peck‟s drugstore was, on the corner, the northwest corner the flat iron area of Division and Monroe that was oh half way in the middle of that block. Across the street was the at the corner of Commerce which would‟ve been at the south west corner of Commerce and Monroe because at that time Commerce came through from Fulton Street into Monroe at an angle was the Morse Department [Dry Goods] Store, George Morse and there was a food department connected with that in the back end of it ran through and came out on Ionia Street between Louis and Monroe and there‟s a story I know about George Morse who was inclined to be oh let‟s say a little (garbled word) maybe a little more. He was walking through there, through the food department one day and it was a custom then to sell cheese in a �7 large round bowl. Oh it probably was a foot or 18 inches across. They‟d cut the mold. Then to entice you to buy they‟d sliver off a piece of the cheese and offer it to you on the knife and you could taste the cheese and see whether or not it had the bouquet and the flavor and so forth and it was what you wanted. So Mr. Morse was going through there and the clerk was doing that to someone and he said out of the corner of his mouth, “Sell it to him, don‟t give it to him” (Laughter). Sometime when I was in grade school there was a large fire in that department store now whether it was during the Morse ownership or subsequently when it was known as Ira Smith‟s Department Store, I can‟t recall, but I don‟t remember how the, a department store being in that area or that building much after that fire. There was another large grocery store and market called the Bertsch Market on lower Monroe and about where Crescent came into, ran into Monroe; the west side of Monroe and that area from the Pantlind Hotel south to Bridge Street and Michigan Avenue as you… Interviewer: North Mr. Cary: ….it was all Bridge Street for many, many years and then I think the time the numbered system was changed the area from Monroe to the east was called Michigan and the area west of Monroe was still called Bridge Street and the stores and the shops in that area were as good as the shops up Monroe avenue. There was the Wurzburg‟s Department Store down close to Crescent Street, there was the Benjamin Company, there was the [Levi‟s] Star Clothing store in that area, the Petey[?] Apparel Company whose kids went to St. Andrews with me and their father owned that store which was on the east side of Monroe in the area between Lyon and Crescent. There was Katz Brothers which was at the corner of, the north east corner of Lyon and Monroe, the Water Shoe Store[?] which was a large shoe store at that time was there in the sort of onion shape projection there in the corner of the…well it‟s the first street runs dead end into the Civic Auditorium. Interviewer: Where the Inersin[?] Drugstore is now. The Inersin Craft, Art and Supply store is there? Mr. Cary: Well no, it‟s not Inersin that‟s over on Louis Street here. That‟s the…. Interviewer: Oh yeah not Inersin. Mr. Cary: ….Dave Munner, Douma‟s? Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Cary: Yeah, that‟s the street I‟m talking about there. And then of course Aman‟s Sons The Giant [Giant Clothing Company] was at the south east corner of Lyon. Our earliest theatre, movie theater, was in the area between Lyon and Monroe across from the Pantlind and Peck‟s drugstore was in that area. That was a large progressive drugstore and the forerunner of being of a drugstore being something else besides selling drugs. I can remember one time, it was after I got out of college - I was practicing law, I was in the west drugstore in the evening around six o‟clock it may been because I was going to the Armory which was on Michigan Avenue for a concert. I saw the one, the in-inable[?] Shayapa come into Peck‟s drugstore from across the street from the Pantlind one of the most striking people I ever saw on the streets of Grand Rapids. He had one of those Asterican[?] fur hats cocked on the side of his head he was about, six feet three, six feet four, weighing around two hundred pounds and he carried, carried himself �8 to the full extent of his height just a magnificent looking male figure and he was giving a concert at the Armory where concerts were held in those days. But the movies had been in Grand Rapids was named Gaudet and for years the people in Grand Rapids didn‟t speak of going to the movies they were going to the Gaudet and I know as green as I was when I went to Boston in nineteen eighteen, why I would speak of the movies as going to the Gaudet the people down there of course had no idea what I was talking about and the United Star Store had a place in the corner of Pearl and Monroe and upstairs over that was one of the finest eating places both from the standpoint of food and reputation. It was a Chinese restaurant [Hong Ying Lo] operated by Charlie Young. Mr. Young was a educated Chinese. He was the only interpreter that I ever saw in the federal court. [END OF SIDE ONE] [SIDE TWO] [RECORDING CONTINUES HERE] …both the plaintiff and the respondent in the same proceedings and they had been because there weren‟t any other educated Chinese who could act as interpreter but, Charlie Young had the reputation of being a real, fine character, real fine honest man and it was because of that reputation, I‟m sure that he was allowed to jump to both sides in the lawsuit. But that restaurant was, had a reputation all over the west especially in western Michigan and if anyone came in and were of the least bit boisterous in the place, Mr. Young in a very quiet, suave way went over and either quieted them, or escorted them to the center stairway so that they could leave. Interviewer: Was, did you ever go to Chinnick‟s? Mr. Cary: Chinnick‟s was just east of the Young restaurant, Chinese restaurant and the United Cigar Store there on the corner was the Arcade, which ran through and it still exists, that runs through from Pearl to Lyon and the Power‟s Opera House fronted on to the east side of the Arcade and that was the real, legitimate, the better, legitimate theatre of Grand Rapids of that area. And just east of that was the, the Chinnick Saloon and upstairs over that there was one of the first bowling alleys of Grand Rapids, and if not the first, one of the very earliest and about the only one for many years. As kids growing up as high school boys, there were two saloons there… the Chinnick and Hugh Cavanaughs or commonly called Colonel Cavanaugh and you could prove that you looked to be twenty-one, if you could get by either Hugh Cavanaugh or Bill Chinnick, who sat at the front of their saloon. If you could get by whether you were eighteen or nineteen, into that, you looked twenty-one……They were a very high grade of operators of liquor by the glass business and were real respected citizens. So I, I spoke of Powers Opera House and when I got through college in nineteen twenty-two and started practicing law in the law firm, of which I am the survivor, and which has existed in Grand Rapids for one hundred years in nineteen seventy one.. I started at a salary of a hundred dollars a month. In fact, I could make more money on Saturday afternoon, going out and officiating at ba football game, than I could all week practicing law. So there was Harper Moore, was at Knappen, Uhl & Bryants as it was called then, and I was at Norris, McPherson, Harrington and Waers as it was called then, and Al Cook, my roommate and was at Corwin and Norcross, Norcross being later a part of Warner, Norcross and Judd and Al Cook was George Norcross‟ brother in law and…. Oh, there were several others, there was Bill Biggerd[?], from Yale, who was at the Travelers, which was then in the building and where our office was located, and a �9 fellow by the name of John Randall, whose father was an Episcopal bishop somewhere in Connecticut, and three or four of them were living at the YMCA, and we used to go there and play bridge at night and other nights we would take in the theatres. In the early period, although I don‟t remember very much of our going, that crowd, going to the Majestic, but at that time in Grand Rapids, there were the, the name escapes me now, a group of players and of that group was Selena Royal was the leading lady Spencer Tracy was the leading male, young man. Bill, his name escapes me too; he later became the director of the degrees for the Masonic Order in Grand Rapids and stayed that way for twenty or twenty-five years, directing the degree program of the Masonic group. But then the Clark, I guess, Players although I wouldn‟t be sure of that name, although the man who owned, owned the outfit and or at least operated it, directed it, came out in sometime, during one of the acts and told what was coming on later on. They later moved to Powers Theatre Building and operated out of there and so we were real patrons of the legitimate theatre arts, as stock played by Selena Royal and Spencer Tracy. Selena Royal later went to New York. She was a part of a theatre family and was in some very fine New York productions. I can‟t tell you very much of it, about it anymore. I haven‟t followed through in that area extensively and my memory fails me, in part…. Interviewer: What‟s the…You mentioned that in nineteen thirty-six you came into possession of a social register of Senator Smiths? Mr. Cary: Yes. Interviewer: Did you have any connection with William Alden Smith? Mr. Cary: Yes, he was, he was a close friend of William Judson and we…shut that off….when I started practicing law with Norris McPherson, Harrington and Waer, our office was in the Grand Rapids Savings Bank Building, now the Peoples Building. And the Senator William Alden Smith was President of the Grand Rapids Savings Bank or was chairman of the board, and Gilbert Daane was the President of… Mr. Harrington, Mr. Leon Harrington, of the firm was a friend of Gil Daane‟s and did quite a bit of work for the Grand Rapids Saving Bank. And about nineteen twenty Gil Daane and Senator Smith organized the Michigan Guarantee Corporation which was a finance company which was quite prominent in that period following the First World War. It was an outfit that made loans that the Grand Rapids Savings Bank couldn‟t make under the regulations of the banking department. And with his prominence, Senator Smith sold stock in the Michigan Guarantee Corporation, pretty well over the middle and the dock(?) district of Michigan. And our office did quite a lot of work for the Grand Rapids Savings Bank and the Michigan Guarantee Corporation. And Mr. Charles McPherson, who was a partner with Joseph Brewer Senior in Kelsey-Brewer Company which was the partnership which owned the controlling stock of the American Company Public Utilities Corporation was also a member of the firm. And the Grand Rapids Trust Company which was subsequently headed by Mr. Brewer after he got out of the public utility business in nineteen twenty-five, by a sale to Samuel Insel, was the executor of the William Alden Smith estate. And because of his ownership of Grand Rapids Savings stock and the double liability of stockholders in case of bank failures the Senator Smith was estate was considerably diminished by virtue of having to pay on that liability of his stock. And so the Senator died in nineteen thirty-three, thirty-two or thirty-three, and his wife, Nanna Smith, survived until late in nineteen thirty-five or early in nineteen thirty-six. So at that time, I was a young lawyer and a young book collector and I thought that probably Senator Smith would have some government publications by Schoolcraft and others on the Indians and �10 things, and I thought probably I could get some real finds. And so I asked Mr. McPherson if I could go and look over the Senator‟s library and he made arrangements for me to do that, and so on March the thirteenth, nineteen thirty-six, Irving Quimby, who was the owner of a bookstore called Raymer‟s Bookstore, along with Mrs. McCarn and Mr. Hooper, who headed the trust department of the Grand Rapids Trust Company, and one or two others went to the Smith Library. And before I went, Mr. McPherson said to me, “John I think your just wasting your time.” He says, “the Senator was a politician not a student.” Well I didn‟t find any real first editions at the Senator‟s, in the Senator‟s library. I did get a book that the senator got free, which was a book that was issued when the Clements Library of Ann Arbor was when the University of Michigan was dedicated and I also got a copy of the History of the Supreme Court of the United States, which was published in eighteen ninety and in it there were original etchings by two brothers in Philadelphia, of all of the - Rosenthal were their names - of all of the justices of the Supreme Court up to eighteen ninety. Those were the two books that I got from the Senator‟s library and having finished the examination of the books, I was waiting for Irving Quimby to get through and the others were looking around and there in the library between two Chinese dogs, which were a real showpiece if you liked that sort of thing, was an old burner and it was filled with waste of one kind of another, leather obituary mementos which were custom of people with money in those days to have, were thrown in there and I rummaged through it and I saw a little black Morocco book about eight by eight in there and I picked it out, rummaged through it, and immediately recognized that it was a book of autographs. So I sat in the window seat there, and ran through it, and recognized the names of local people and politicians and state politicians and national politicians and figures and I was wearing a tweed Al McCain[?] sleeved coat, with great big pockets and the thought went through my mind and which was well, “Should I say something about this or should I stick it in my pocket?” And so finally, I thought I can‟t do anything with a thing like that, after you get it surreptitiously, so I said to Jim Hoover, “Jim, are there any other books like this around?‟ He said, “What is it?” Well, I says, “It looks like it‟s a book of autographs.” “Well,” he says, “I don‟t know. But,” he says, “if it‟s here, it belongs to Mrs. Jewell.” Well Frank Jewell who was had been a lumber man and who was married to Mrs. Smith‟s sister was there. He had an office in the, on the 12th floor of the Grand Rapids Savings Bank above my office and our firm offices, so I knew Mr. Jewell through his sons and from seeing him at the building for a number of years. And so Mr. Jewell said, “Well, if it‟s here, Mrs. Jewell doesn‟t want it.” That she‟s taken everything that she wants. So I thought, Well, here is my entry. Here is where I go in. So in my very best dealing smile I handed it to Mr. Jewell and I said, “Well if it‟s Mrs. Jewell‟s and she doesn‟t want it, it would be hers to give away”. So I offered it to him and he took it and it flashed through my mind, “you should have stuck that in your pocket”….He went up stairs with the book and in about 10 or 15 minutes later, came back and he telephoned across the street to Mrs. Jewell and he walked across the room, the library there, and handed the book to me and said “Mrs. Jewell wants you to have it. So make your own moral and how about it? So following that I got squibs and other things from a various people who were mentioned in the books was the lucky occasion was of a….. [END OF TAPE ONE, SIDES ONE AND TWO] [TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE] Mr. Cary: Ask me what you want. Interviewer: Well let‟s start out with that story concerning the diary, the one about the Indiana… �11 Mr. Cary: Okay. Interviewer: …Congressman. Mr. Cary: Part of the interesting pages in the William Alden Smith guestbook is that one which concerns the round robin, which Senator Smith, Senator Watson of Indiana and Senator Hyde, Harding, of Ohio had on Washington on St. Patrick‟s Day. Our former fellow townsman, Fred Wetmore, who nominated William Alden Smith, in nineteen thirteen the last nomination by the Michigan Legislature of a United States Senator, told me this story and that he had it from the Senator himself, and in the book, on March seventeen, nineteen-eighteen, the Smiths having a party, the next President of the United States wrote “On the morn of songs and sausages.” And his wife Florence Kling Harding signed her name and as an aside for many reasons, personal and intimate writings of President and Mrs. Harding, are difficult to secure and especially together on the same instrument. Indiana Senator Watson recorded ”On a day long to be remembered.” Well, Senator Watson was an outspoken, testy curmudgeon and renown in Indiana for his pointed use of the vernacular. There appears in one of Jonathan Daniels recent books a statement by Senator Watson, which is more in character than the above statement about it being a day long to be remembered. Wendell Willkie was from Indiana and in nineteen forty the Republican candidate for President of the United States. And his supporters sought Senator Watson‟s endorsement, and the Senator refused because he complained that candidate Willkie was a Democrat and so he didn‟t want to endorse him and so finally Senator Watson was pushed and asked if he didn‟t believe in conversion, and the all-irreconcilable graphically snorted, “If a whore repented and wanted to join the church I‟d personally welcome her, and lead her up the aisle to a pew. But by the Eternal, I‟d not asked her to lead the choir the first night.” Interviewer: What was that other, there was another incident you related to me about some fellow that was, who was in charge of some committee that would approve a project? It was a pork-barrel project involving the Grand River. Mr. Cary: Oh that was, was a party which the Smiths gave for Vice President Marshall, who this Senator, Senator Smith was there during the Wilson administration, and of course Marshall was Woodrow Wilson‟s Vice President. And so the guests were Vice President Marshall and Senator and Mrs. Kellogg from Minnesota and Newton Baker, who was Secretary of War at the time, and his wife and Mrs. T. DeWitt Talmage, who was the widow of a very prominent Presbyterian, or at least Protestant minister of the Washington community and quite famous. And so one of the stories about Vice-President Marshall, of course, is the famous one about what this country needs is a good five-cent cigar. But in his recollections, subtitled “Hoosier Salad”, he related an occasion when an appropriation to dredge the Grand River in Michigan was being debated. And Senator William Alden Smith was for the appropriation and Senator Theodore Burton of Ohio, opposed it. And the controversy, according to Vice President Marshall, was waxing, warm and Burton was insisting that there never had been two and a half feet depth in that river, and there never could be and Smith, Senator Smith said to him testily, “Well, you‟re the man to whom when you were in the house of Representatives, we gave a dinner in Grand Rapids, and you came back and introduced the first appropriation for this.” “Yes.” Burton replied, “I know that is so. You gave me a dinner there, and after the dinner, was over, I saw water, where there was no water”. “But I‟m sober now. I‟ve reformed and I‟m opposed to this appropriation.” �12 Interviewer: How, how about that, the story about how Catholic Central finally got a football team? Mr. Cary: Why I don‟t, I don‟t know whether that story is, is how they got it, but the fact is that in nineteen twelve, I was a sophomore in Catholic Central High School and in nineteen eleven, the boys who were Juniors and Seniors in Catholic Central played football, but they were not allowed to play under the name Catholic Central, because Bishop Richter, who was very aesthetic, pious, studious man and a great administrator of the Dioceses, who a great number of years figured that children should be educated and should not waste their time on athletics and other things, and he wouldn‟t allow athletics in the high school, so the boys who would play and in nineteen eleven the kids that went to Catholic Central played under the name Ernie Reed‟s. Ernie Reed was a saloon keeper who had a saloon at the northwest corner of Cherry Street and Division Avenue. Winegar‟s large furniture store was immediately south of Ernie Reeds, on the same side of the street and some of the people, who played on the nineteen eleven Ernie Reed team were Carroll Williams, who later went to the University of Michigan and became a rather prominent engineer in Grand Rapids, a brother of Francis Williams, the lawyer who has two sons who were both practicing law in Grand Rapids. One of the other members of the team was John Hugh O‟Donnell, usually signed J. Hugh O‟Donnell, who went to University of Notre Dame, and played center on one of the teams that Knute Rockne played on. That would be sometime in nineteen twelve [or] thirteen and later after the First World War, Hugh O‟Donnell, who was a very fine imposing, looking person, who had a tremendously sonorous voice, speaking voice, joined the priesthood. I don‟t know whether he became a regular priest or whether he joined the order, but he ultimately became a member of the Holy Cross Order and ultimately was elected as President of Norte Dame, and served for one, six-year term and then was out the required period and came back and was elected for another six-year term as President of Notre Dame. On that was also Bob Murray, who‟s family had, made money in the lumbering industry, and the Murray Building at the corner of Division and Library Street is, was built by Bob Murray‟s father, John Murray. Oh, there was the Holland, Alphonse Holland and others that, oh an Italian boy who was one of the stars of that Cole Manardo. In fact, the matter is there may have been two Cole Manardos, on the, the team, Cole is an abbreviation of Cosamou Manardo and at that time I knew four Cosie Manardos in various stages of the school at St. Andrews and the one who lived on Jefferson Avenue, right near Sycamore, went to Detroit and is still a well-to-do, practicing lawyer in Detroit. Where the others are, I don‟t know now. Interviewer: Was there much of, when the Ernie Reed football team was playing, did they play Central High School? Mr. Cary: I, I was young enough so that I didn‟t know who they played or how they played. Yeah, at that time, you know there was, there was only one high school that really had a full time twelve grades and that was Central High School, Grand Rapids Central. At that time it was a real all-state power, the big teams of the state was Detroit Central, Grand Rapids Central and Muskegon High School. At a little earlier than that, Robert Zupke, who was later the great coach at the University of Illinois, was the coach at Muskegon High School and he went from Muskegon to Oak Park, Illinois, had very successful teams there and then about nineteen twelve or thirteen, Zup, whom I later was acquainted with personally along with Benny Oosterbaan, who was one of his boys, but who Zup didn‟t get to go to the University of Illinois, were friends of mine. We used to play some golf at, in tournaments at Spring Lake and Muskegon and so on. �13 And Zupke was a very vocal person, always, always telling stories and so in the twenties Zupke was out scouting and looking for players for Illinois and Benny Oosterbaan was out looking for players for the University of Michigan. And they traveled together. And I can remember a couple of years, there was a hole over at Spring Lake Country Club, around the third where the third, the fifteenth, and the seventh or sort of came together, and so when you‟d finish your match, and were waiting for the next one, why you‟d congregate in that area. And I spent several hours there listening to Zupke tell stories about his various teams. Benny Oosterbaan would be laying on his back, with his hands under his head and his elbows akimbo to his head, and you‟d think he was asleep, but whenever Zupke would run down Oosterbaan would kind of roll over like that, open up one eye and say, “Hey Dutchman, did you ever tell them about so-and-so?”, and Zupke would then be off again no, no sense story so that, when you got away from Grand Rapids Central, but it was the only high school. It wasn‟t until nineteen eleven or twelve that Union High School became a full twelve grade school and so I remember that Johnny Beck, Alvin Louks and some of those boys of that time, some of the others, their names don‟t come to me now, played on the first Union High School Football team. So get back a little to Catholic Central, now I played on the first team, a friend of mine lived on the block south of us, was a boy by the name of Paul Hines. His father was a railroad engineer and Paul was not very successful in athletics and but he was very fond of them and so I remember in the late summer of nineteen twelve, I was down at Paul‟s house, we always called him Pickle, Pickle Hines and he asked me how old I was and how much I weighed. Well I didn‟t know and so we went over to Cody‟s store, which was at the corner of Highland and Lafayette and I got weighed and I weighed a hundred and forty-three pounds and I was somewhere around six feet and he says, “Yeah sure. We‟re going to organize a second team at Catholic Central this year, and I want you to play for my second team.” The second team had no relation whatever to the first team and we were playing at the practice grounds at the corner of College and Logan and one night we were scrimmaging and I was playing fullback for the second team and they finally talked Pickle into letting our second team play the first team. And so I had a good night in that practice and so some of the first team members wanted me to play guard on the first team. And Pickle wouldn‟t let me, because that would spoil his second team, and so there was quite a controversy about it and finally I was allowed to go to the first team. We played one game at Garfield Park. I remember that our singing teacher at Catholic Central at that time was Mary Agnes Douglas, a fine old lady, she probably is much younger at that time than I am now, but at least she was old to me then. And in order to get some income from the game, we sold tags which you put in your buttonholes, and I don‟t remember now how much they cost, but Miss Douglas, made a hit with all of the boys in school because she bought quite a number of those tags for the football game against Sparta at Garfield Park. Well the sad part of that game was that three or four of our players got hurt and we couldn‟t continue the rest of the season, because we didn‟t have enough able-bodied students after that to make-up a football team. Dan Mead, who was playing halfback, hurt his neck. Dan later went to M.A.C. Michigan State College and became an engineer and one of the top officers in late years of Owen, Ames and Kimball builders. And another one who got hurt was Bob Murray and I don‟t remember who the two others were. Lester Styles, who at that time was, had won national honors at Philadelphia for the Grand Rapids‟ Boat and Canoe Club, was playing tackle along side of me that game. But that was the last, first and last game of the nineteen twelve Catholic Central High School Football Team. Later on, Bill Murray, who, that‟s wrong, later on Bill Ducey, who was a, whose family, the son of Michael Ducey who was a furniture manufacturer, with a factory on Godfrey Avenue, out around Hall �14 Street, which later became the Johnson – Hanley – Johnson factory, was a student at the seminary, St. Joseph‟s Seminary and at that time St. Joseph‟s Seminary was across Sheldon Street from Catholic Central High School. And Bill was studying for the priesthood and he was short but very quick and was a fine quarterback. He later played quarterback for the Catholic Central teams of nineteen thirteen and fourteen and Bill played on the second team and the second team after I went back to it, we went on and we played Union‟s second team at John Ball Park and both Bill and I got an offer to, I can‟t remember now whether there was any money connected with the offer or just what it was, but we were offered by Mr. Dillingham, who was either the principle or the faculty manager of Union High School, some sort of scholarship or something at Union if we would transfer from Catholic Central to Union. Well the Duceys had a very large family and the Duceys were very devout as my parent were, and we had about as much chance playing for anything except the Catholic School as a snowball would in certain places that are fairly hot. At that time in nineteen thirteen, Elmer Mitchell was the coach at Union High School. Phil Holloway was our coach at, at Catholic Central and we played Union High School at Ramona Park on Saturday morning. And we had some pretty big boys on our team, but it wasn‟t real cohesive as a unit and so we would play good games and bad games. Well, the day we played Union, we played a good game and Union almost had the disaster of losing to us. And so the next year when we tried to get Union to play us in nineteen fourteen Elmer Mitchell said, “Why should I play you guys?” He says, “Your other games you play like a lot of sand lotters and you play my team and,” he says, “you knock my players out and we have injuries and so on and I‟m expected to beat you by a high score and if I don‟t, why I‟m in disgrace. I don‟t want to play you.” And what he said was true. Union was about to, Central was having an off year after it had a State Championship having beaten Muskegon a year or two before when Central had a great team headed by our sheriff of later years, Hugh Blacklock who became an all American, after having played four years at M.A.C, he went to Great Lakes and played there, while playing at Great Lakes on the service team he became All-American, a Walter Camp All-American. He later joined the Staleys, which was headed by George Halas and ultimately became the Chicago Bears. Hugh Blacklock played for the Chicago Bears until about nineteen twenty-six or twenty-seven, a matter of six or seven years. Hugh was a great player and a great person and was a real credit to professional football and to college football in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: This is a little away from, away from football, but could you tell me about the breweries in Grand Rapids and that story about how the breweries apparently had something to do with preserving part of the population. Mr. Cary: Why that matter about the health of Grand Rapids isn‟t anything that‟s original with me. It is set forth in Baxter‟s History of Grand Rapids, which in my opinion is a real history of Grand Rapids and is a wealth of information on Grand Rapids history. But John Pennell or Pennell, P-E-double N-E-double L, was an Englishman who settled in Grand Rapids about eighteen thirty-four, eighteen thirty-six and he because of the fact that at the foot of the hill on Michigan Avenue, which was then called East Bridge Street, there were springs of very pure, fine water and Mr. Pennell secured the rights to that land and that water and piped it across East Bridge Street over to the corner of Ionia and Bridge and made English Beer. What the difference is between it and the German Lager beer that I‟ll talk about, I don‟t know. And so the German migration to Grand Rapids brought with it a great number of men and families who were brewers in various provinces of Germany and one of the more prominent of these brewers was �15 Christopher Kusterer and in, sometime in the eighteen forties, I think probably about eighteen forty-nine, Christopher Kusterer bought out the stock in the business of John Pennell and whether he removed it from across the street to the southwest corner of East Bridge and Ionia or not isn‟t quite clear historically but that area was the area where the water was. And Kusterer wanted that water. And he then started making lager beer. At that time the area which was the, the part of Grand Rapids along Canal Street, along in that area was swampy and that condition also existed down around the around the area where the, the Union Railroad Station was ultimately built on Ionia at Logan or at Weston or Island as it was called previous to Weston and Oakes and Cherry in that area, was low ground and swampy. And there was, it was sort of an ague was contracted by a lot of people in the, in the Grand Rapids area. Whether it was malarial or not I‟m not quite sure, but the out it, as a result of it they contracted a certain amount of chills and shaking. Interviewer: Let‟s, let‟s just stop there for a second so I can turn the tape over, okay? [Audio recording ends at this point] Mr. Cary: I was talking about the fact that many residents of Grand Rapids suffered these chills and shaking ague that went along with it and that between the late eighteen forties and eighteen fifty-five that would be about eight years following the, the sale and brewing of lager beer. That condition was almost completely eliminated so far as Grand Rapids was concerned. Whether that‟s sound medically or not I don‟t know but if that is true, it can be well said that the Grand Rapids Brewing industry really played an important part in the public health of the city of Grand Rapids. Christopher Kusterer was a real business man. He had a good sense of, of what was a good product and the way to market it and get the people to buy it. And there were oh, I wouldn‟t know how many German brewers there were who had brewers it, in this period of the late forties and early fifties. Peter Weirich who was, an important German Businessman in that period had what was called a Michigan brewery at West Bridge and Indiana. There was the Eagle brewery which was established in eighteen seventy-six at fifty Stocking Street by Jacob Veit and Paul Rathman. The Tusch brothers had a brewery on Grandville Avenue and I think that was a little south of Wealthy Street. And then H. A. Britt had one on West Division Street and West Division was a street on the west side and its name was changed when Grand Rapids completely reversed the names of its streets and avenues and had all thoro, thoroughfares running east and west as streets and all north and south as avenues. And it was at that time that the city was geographically divided into four quadrants with Fulton Street dividing north and south and Division Street dividing east and west. And John Gessler and company had a brewery on Page Street up in the north end. Adolph Goetz, whose family was later a client of mine had a brewery at Broadway and West Leonard. And the Union Brewery was located at eighty-seven South Division Street and it was established in eighteen sixty-two by George Brandt. In eighteen eighty-eight the proprietors were Elizabeth B. Brandt and I think she is the widow of the organizer of George Brandt but I‟m not sure. And then there was George Jub, W. Brandt, he‟s the son of the original George Brandt and Julius Petersen. The Petersens had a brewery which was operating as late as nineteen twenty and their brewery was on Indiana Avenue, just south of Bridge Street, the Union Brewery at eighty-seven South Division Street was located at the southeast corner of Oakes and Division. And in the period of about nineteen oh-five to nineteen ten those premises were operated by Theodore Clark. And the Neal Cary flam, family was a customer of Theodore Clark in the summertime because when he came to deliver the beer at our �16 house, I would quite often ride with Mr. [Louis P.] Maude the driver of the truck for the rest of his finishing up the rest of his route. Later Mr. Maude was the bailiff for United States Circuit Court of Appeals Judge, Arthur W. Dennison. And later on in our lifetimes we used to talk about our deliveries many years before. Interviewer: Then the breweries, the solo breweries consolidated. Mr. Cary: Yes, Christopher Kusterer in eighteen eighty was a victim of the steamer Alpena disaster which was the loss of the Alpena on a trip from either Holland or Muskegon to Chicago or Milwaukee. And following that the, the any number of these breweries consolidated and joined up and the Grand Rapids Brewing Company was the result of that amalgamation of these various German family breweries. And prior to sometime between eighteen eighty and the publication of the Baxter History of Grand Rapids in eighteen ninety, the large red building, the home of the Grand Rapids Brewing Company was built and it was a landmark on Michigan Hill, which was formerly East Street Bridge Street for many years and until nineteen sixty-four, five or six whenever that was torn down as part of the Urban Renewal in the Grand Rapids Downtown area. Interviewer: The, the, I think you said that their beer was Silver Foam. Mr. Cary: Yes. Interviewer: And how, what, how did they market that beer around town? Then there was the story about the Branch Bank in Michigan and how breweries affected branch banking. Mr. Cary: Oh, well, it, it, it was the custom of breweries, it wasn‟t unique in Grand Rapids, but the law books have cases in which Joseph Schlitz had certain corners in certain cities which he would lease to a man who would be expected to only dispense Schlitz Beer. And there are records of breeches of that agreement and law suits over it. And there also in the Michigan records of suits by various breweries in Michigan who have the same situation and so the Grand Rapids Brewing Company bought up some of the best retail corners throughout the city of Grand Rapids. One of them was the southeast corner of Franklin and Division and off hand I, I don‟t remember any others and I haven‟t done any research on it so I, I‟m not sure of that. I‟m sure of that one but there were many more. And when prohibition came to Michigan in nineteen eighteen, the time of the First World War and the Grand Rapids Brewing Company went out of the brewing business, it went into the real estate business and sold these prominent corners in Grand Rapids to George Ellis who had a private bank, to the Grand Rapids Saving Bank, to the Kent State and they established branch banks on those corners throughout the, the, throughout the city. And those corners were used by branch banks until very modern times when the plaza and the outside area shopping districts were, came into being and so progress changes and methods of branch banking change but the brewing business was forerunner of branch banks. Interviewer: This is a, Mr. Cary: After repeal of prohibition the National trend of consumers to prefer the highly advertised national brands of beer sounded the death knell of the relatively small local breweries throughout the United States and the attempt by the Fox people of Chicago to take over the old red building of Grand Rapids Brewing Company on Michigan Avenue and Market Fox Deluxe beer succeeded for several years. But then it just couldn‟t compete with the National Advertising �17 that had to be done in order to sell beer. There are probably more money spent for television time for beer than for any other product and if you haven‟t got money to do that advertising, you lose out. As illustration, Harry Heilman who was one of the great broadcasters of radio and television broadcasting the Detroit Tiger games for many years his product was Global Beer but a….. [SIDE TWO OF TAPE TWO] ….make it in the Grand Rapids Brewing Company later followed by Fox Deluxe part of the Frank Fox family of Chicago. I was not able to make it either. And it…….not very many people now remember what that big red building was, what caused it to be there and so on yet it gracefully aged up there on the hill, but finally it was looked upon as an eye-sore and the cost of trying to maintain it in condition so that it was not a hazard as a structure that it finally felt that with the Urban Renewal it had to be torn down and when it was a historical era so far as Grand Rapids is concerned, passed out of existence. It goes back to the very early beginnings of Grand Rapids in the 1840s and its industrial life and it saddens people who have lived through a part of that period when structures of that kind were a real life blood of the community. And some place or other I think probably that the following quotation, I don‟t know whether where it‟s from is a probably a good obituary for the old Grand Rapids Brewing company building, the home of Silver Foam Beer and I quote: “Yet shall some Tribute of regret be paid when her long life hath reached its final day. Men are we and must grieve when even the shade of that which once, of that which once was great, passed away”. INDEX A D American Laundry Company · 1 B Daane, Gil · 10 Daly Family · 3 Douglas, Mary Agnes · 15 Blacklock, Hugh · 16 Burton, Senator Theodore (Ohio) · 2, 13 E Erie Canal · 2 C Cady, William · 2 Cary, Cornelius "Neal" (Father) · 2, 5 Cary, Julia A. Lynch · 1, 2 Cary, Patrick (Grandfather) · 1, 2 Catholic Central High School · 13, 14, 15 Cavanaugh Family · 9 Chinnick Saloon · 9 Clark, M.J. · 6, 7, 10 Coliseum · 5 F Fanitorium · 4 G Gaudet (movei theatre) · 8 Grand Rapids and Indiana Railroad · 1 �18 Grand Rapids Brewing Company · 17, 18 Grand Rapids Trust Company · 10 H Hines, Paul · 14 Holland, Alphonse · 14 Holloway, Phil · 15 Hoover, Jim · 11 J Jewell, Frank · 7, 11 Judson Grocery Company · 2, 6, 7 O O‟Donnell, John Hugh · 13 Oosterbaan, Benny · 14 P Peck‟s Drugstore · 5, 7, 8 Pennell, John · 16 Pipp Family · 4 Powers Opera House · 9 Q Quimby, Irving · 6, 11 K Kelvinator plant · 3 Kleinhans, Jacob · 6 Knappen, Stuart · 6 Kusterer, Christopher · 16, 17 R Reed, Ernie · 2, 13, 14 Roosevelt, Alice · 5 Roosevelt, Theodore (President) · 4 Royal, Selena · 10 L Leonard Family · 3 Lynch Family · 1, 2, 3 Lynch, Jeremiah (Grandfather) · 2, 3 Lynch, Timothy (Uncle) · 1 M Manardo, Cole · 14 Marshall, Vice President · 2, 12, 13 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T) · 4 Maude, Louis P. · 17 Michigan Central Railroad · 2 Morrissey Family · 4 Morse, George · 6, 7 Murray Family · 13, 15 Musselman Grocery Company · 6 N Nunamaker, Leslie · 4 S Silver Foam beer · 18, 19 Smith, Senator · 7, 10, 11, 12, 13 Smith, William Alden · 5, 6, 10, 12, 13 St. Alphonsus Church · 3 St. Andrews School · 4, 5, 8, 14 T Tracy, Spencer · 10 U Union Brewery · 17 University of Michigan · 1, 11, 13, 14 W Watson, Senator (Indiana) · 12 Williams, Carroll · 13 �19 Willkie, Wendell · 12 Worden Grocery Company · 6 Wurzburg‟s Department Store · 8 Y Young, Charlie · 8, 9 Z Zupke, Robert · 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b61d7840d1ac70b8eba674a8eaa0c739.mp3 ee8a99f2ad5c19b3ad26c124a1407cd8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_18-19Cary Title A name given to the resource Cary, John Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cary, John Description An account of the resource John Cary was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on October 2, 1897. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75b7238857724d60ab0643af37325a8d.pdf 37c0115e6350f6dc2293113de2d007ea PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Earle Clements Interviewed on October 21, 1974 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 41 (46:06) Biographical Information Mrs. Clements was born Nellie Dorothy Calder in Chicago, Illinois on 12 August 1893. She was the daughter of Robert Gillon Calder and Emma C. Bluthardt. Her father, Robert Calder was born 16 October 1858 in Bathgate, Scotland and died 29 January 1946 in Grand Rapids. He was buried in Graceland Cemetery in Chicago. Her mother, Emma Bluthardt was born 27 December 1863 in St. Louis, Missouri and died in 26 December 1929 in Grand Rapids. Robert and Emma were married on 24 November 1886 in Chicago. At the time of Robert Calder's burial, the remains of Emma and daughter Marjorie Calder were removed from Graceland Mausoleum in Grand Rapids and re-interred in Graceland Cemetery in Chicago, Illinois. Nellie Calder was married in Grand Rapids on 2 May 1914 to Earle Arthur Clements, the son of Eilert Alfred Clements and Julia Jenssen. Earle was born in Niles, Michigan on 19 June 1891 and died on 18 January 1972. His father, Eilert Clements was born about July 1864 in Norway and died on 12 May 1934 in Grand Rapids. His mother Julia whom Eilert married in Chicago 7 September 1889 was born about July 1870 in Trondheim, Norway and died in Grand Rapids 20 November 1942. __________ Interviewer: Residence of Mrs. Earle Clements at twenty-five oh-six Normandy Drive, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Mrs. Clements had kindly consented to be interviewed and I‟m going to start by asking her a few questions about where she was born and her parents and her grandparents. Mrs. Clements: Well I was born in Chicago, Illinois on August twelfth eighteen ninety-three and moved to Grand Rapids when I was eleven years old. My parents, my father was born in Bathgate, Scotland, not far from Edinburgh and mother was born in St. Louis, Missouri. Her parents, they had come from Germany. Interviewer: I don‟t think we really need to hand this back and forth, actually we can just… I‟ll just hold it and watch the dial here. Now when did you come to Grand Rapids Mrs. Clements? Mrs. Clements: In nineteen, in nineteen four. Interviewer: I see and what was your father‟s, line of work? �2 Mrs. Clements: Well he was he was with the old Nelson-Matter Furniture Company and Michigan Chair Company. Stayed with them until they went out of business, and then he went to Johnson-Handley for a good many years - great many years. Interviewer: Had he worked in Chicago for the Nelson-Matter Company? Mrs. Clements: Yes, and in those days he commuted when there were no, there were no, furniture markets in Grand Rapids at the time and so whenever he would have a customer from the West Coast why, he would bring him to Grand Rapids to see the show rooms and finally, I think they decided that it would be better if he lived right here and so we moved over in nineteen four which was quite a, father was accustomed to Grand Rapids and had been a member, a nonresident member of Kent County Club and all and so he, he felt that he fitted in. But Mother had a, quite a time adjusting because Chicago was so far advanced over Grand Rapids in those days that it was pretty difficult. And I was thinking this morning when I was expecting Lee, I remembered when we took, we rented the house on Cherry Street between College and Paris Avenue and lived there for… until after I was married; and I remembered so well that Marshall Fields did all the decorating, the rugs and the draperies and the wall papers and all for Mother in Chicago because there was nothing available here that she had, that she could find out about anyway. And a, I remember when we‟d go back to visit we‟d come home on the train laden with English muffins and cream puffs and all the things we couldn‟t get in Grand Rapids to bring back for treats. It was, of course there were very little ready to wear clothing made in those days. Most everything was made in the homes or by dress makers and it was it was a very different life. When you went back to Chicago, everything was available and it took Grand Rapids quite a few years to catch up. Today I think our markets are as good as almost anyone. Interviewer: Is the house still standing that…? Mrs. Clements: No, they tore that down within the last ten years. The house was an old, old one. Dr. Lilly, I think, had built it originally and I think it was a fifty years old when we moved into it. And it deteriorated badly after we left and it was made into kind of a, well, it wasn‟t a rooming house, but kind of flats. They, I know that my bedroom and bathroom were one apartment and they divided the whole place up in that way; and it was deteriorating so badly that in spite of the nostalgia, I was glad to see it torn down. I hated to, to have it go to pieces in front of us. And that‟s where the doctors buildings are built today. [516 (430) Cherry Street] Interviewer: I see Mrs. Clements: It‟s that whole block between Paris and College. Interviewer: Paris, Paris and College. You probably knew my great Aunt, Mrs. Charles Wilson. Mrs. Clements: Next door, yes. Interviewer: Right around the corner on College. �3 Mrs. Clements: And you had a father down the block on College. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Clements: And College Avenue was a wonderful, wonderful neighborhood in those days. So many, many of our friends who are still friends, lived in that block and the block toward, toward Fountain, or toward Fulton I mean. Interviewer: When, when did your family decide to move? In what, what year do you remember? Mrs. Clements: I came to move here? Interviewer: No I mean you moved out of that house. Mrs. Clements: Out of that house? Yes, I was married in nineteen fourteen and I think they moved out about twenty-one. [In 1922, the Robert G. Calders lived at 122 Union SE] Interviewer: I see. Did you have any brothers or sisters? Mrs. Clements: I had a sister. Interviewer: I see. Was she younger or older? Mrs. Clements: Younger, younger. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: And it was interesting in those days. When you speak of a younger sister I always think because there was nothing from, from the corner of College Avenue, College Avenue was built up just Morris Avenue was just being opened up; and the, the Frank Deans had the only house on Morris Avenue, in the middle of the block there was nothing else. And there was a little path, it wasn‟t wider than two feet, worn, foot-path that we used to go to school, to Wealthy Avenue School from our house. And we‟d cut across, straight across from the corner of College and Cherry through Morris and over to the corner of Madison and Wealthy. Right through there were, there weren‟t woods but there were undergrowth. Interviewer: Was there a school on that corner? Mrs. Clements: Where, where Vanderbilt [Vandenberg] school is today, was old Wealthy Avenue Street School. Interviewer: Vanderbilt? [Vandenberg], not… Mrs. Clements: On Mad… on Lafayette and Wealthy. Interviewer: Lafayette and Wealthy. I see. �4 Mrs. Clements: Yeah and that was the old Wealthy Avenue school. I have some pictures of that in my scrap-book of the old school. Interviewer: Do you remember some of your classmates of…? Mrs. Clements: Oh yes, there were; all that College Avenue crowd. Interviewer: I see. Who were you‟re special friends? Mrs. Clements: Well, Mary Murray and Olive Maddox and, you should have given me a little warning. Interviewer: That‟s alright. Mrs. Clements: A, Ali, what was her name, Snow? You know... Interviewer: I think I do know, is that, Mills or… Mrs. Clements: Yes. Interviewer: Didn‟t they call her Nifty Mills? Mrs. Clements: Nifty Mills. Interviewer: She was a sort of a relative of mine. Mrs. Clements: Oh was she? Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Clements: She was a good friend and a, Mary Fisher and there were, there were a great many awfully nice people that were there. Interviewer: Can you remember your teacher at all? Mrs. Clements: Yes, Miss Keck particularly. Interviewer: Miss Keck? Mrs. Clements: And she was the principal. Interviewer: Is that K-E-C-K, K-E-C-K? Miss Clements: K-E-C-K and, that was interesting because I had gone to a little private school in Chicago, and had never been in a public school and Mother was very doubtful about this and the school was not up to our standards of today. The toilet room for instance, was a big room with a board with holes in it and that we all sat in and no heat down there. I can remember it very vividly. But Miss Keck, we moved in September and, school had started a few days before and �5 so when Mother took us to school, Miss Keck took [me] up under her wing and took us to our teachers and got us started. And she was wonderful to us there and helped us adjust to a new environment and years later when I was President of the Women‟s City Club I followed her; she had been president before me and then I came and that was quite a jump from a principal and a little girl to two ex-presidents together. Interviewer: Really. Did you go, did you as many of your age group, did you go on to Central High School? Miss Clements: No, I went to Miss Moffat‟s School. Interviewer: Miss Moffat‟s School? Mrs. Clements: In a private, in a private school. Interviewer: Now where was that located? Mrs. Clements: Well on Jefferson, down near Wealthy. Interviewer: Um hum. Mrs. Clements: And I went from, from Wealthy Avenue Street, to Central Grammar which was where Junior College was, is. Interviewer: Yeah Mrs. Clements: And finished the seventh and eighth grades there and then instead of going to Central High School, I went to Miss Moffat‟s for four years. Interviewer: For four years? Mrs. Clements: Then went east to School. Interviewer: Where did you go after, after you left Miss Moffat‟s? Mrs. Clements: I went to Spence in New York City. Interviewer: I see, how long were you there? Mrs. Clements: Just a year. Interviewer: Now that would bring you up to just about what year? Mrs. Clements: Nineteen thirteen Interviewer: Nineteen thirteen? And you said you were married in nineteen fourteen, I believe. Mrs. Clements: Um Hum. �6 Interviewer: How did you meet Mr. Clements or… Mrs. Clements: I met him on a sleigh ride, originally, and, and then I didn‟t see him for a year or so afterwards and then we were pulled together again and we were married in nineteen fourteen. Interviewer: And what was he doing at that point? Mrs. Clements: Well he was in, in, he was with the Globe Knitting Works; his fatherwas the head of that. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: And, he was with that for a great many years and, and was superintendant until he left and he left, left later on to establish a knitting department down in Tennessee for a big concern. Interviewer: Was the Globe Knitting Works or Globe Knitting Company, I‟m not sure of the correct name. Mrs. Clements: Works. Interviewer: Works, was that a family owned business? Mrs. Clements: Mr. Clements, and Mr. Liesveld, that was Herman Liesveld; and I suppose there were others have had some stock in it but those two had the… Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: …controlling interest. And they, they, they were, that went on until after Mr. Clements‟ death and then Roy Clements became president of it and then it was sold, oh in the forties I guess or fifties I‟m not sure. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: To some eastern concern and they liquidated it. Which was too bad because today even people come up to me and say, “Oh Mrs. Clements, I remember your husband so well. I worked at the Globe for so long and then there was no place for us.” And there wasn‟t, Because all those people who had been trained they had hundreds of employees, maybe five hundred and, they had been trained along that line and there was nothing around here in any little town or anywhere else that they could get employment, you know? And a lot of them were older that couldn‟t start to learn a new trade and it was rather disastrous. Interviewer: Yes, I can see. Do you suppose it was the Depression, or was it just they… Mrs. Clements: Well I think the Depression, I know that Mr. Clements, when he first left, he had planned to go into the hosiery business in Belding and it with the financing through the �7 Depression it was, the banks closed and there were, it just stopped everything, and so that fell through. And then later on he went to Tennessee, just as a temper…, temporary thing, I mean, we never really expected to just stay there the rest of our lives but it was fine opportunity to do something. Interviewer: Now, were, were your, was your husband, were your husband‟s parents natives of Grand Rapids or did…? Mrs. Clements: No, they both came from Norway. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: They came from Norway and they met in Chicago. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: Which was interesting. Interviewer: And when did they come to Grand Rapids? Mrs. Clements: They, my husband was born in Niles and they were there first and I think I‟m sure that Roy Clements was born in Grand Rapids, so that would have been about ninety-three, eighty-three, ninety-three, ninety-three. Interviewer: Ninety-three. Mrs. Clements: Yes. Interviewer: Was that when Mr. Roy Clements was born? Mrs. Clements: Um hum. Interviewer: I see, and then they came up to Grand Rapids somewhere just prior to that then? Mrs. Clements: Um hum. And they lived over on the west side, and I think they were driven out of the west side by the Big Flood [1904]. Interviewer: Oh yes. Mrs. Clements: And then they moved over to this side. Interviewer: Where did they live when they came to this side of the river? Mrs. Clements: Well they lived on College Avenue when I first knew them. Interviewer: I see. �8 Mrs. Clements: Down near Franklin and then they moved into the, the big house on Fountain Street, just two doors from you, you know the, the, what was the name of the people that lived at the corner across from you? Interviewer: Well, Mrs. McKnight and… Mrs. Clements: No, the other way, going up Fountain Street. Interviewer: Well, the, in the old days of course, Curtis Wiley‟s parents lived there for a while. Mrs. Clements: No, I mean the little house, the one story house. She was, she married Ted Booth. Interviewer: Oh the Earles, oh yes. Mrs. Clements: The Earles house then… Interviewer: Which is gone. Mrs. Clements: And then the Clements‟. Yes the Clements‟ house was gone too. Interviewer: I see. I thought the [Edwin F.] Uhl House was right there, Mrs. Clements: Well it was the Uhl house. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: Was the Uhl House. Interviewer: They moved into what had been the Uhl House. Mrs. Clements: What had been the Uhl house and they lived there for oh, until the family was all gone, then they took the smaller place. Interviewer: I see. Where did your husband go to College? Mrs. Clements: He went to Howe Military School. Interviewer: He to Howe Military School? And what is your education with Mr. Grover Good? I know there‟s some tie in there. Mrs. Clements: He was, he was married to Mr. Clements‟s sister. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: For a while, before… Interviewer: He, he was also in, in the knitting works was he not? �9 Mrs. Clements: Well he was brought here when he married Nora. Interviewer: Wasn‟t he the head master of Howe or, I knew he had some a… Mrs. Clements: Uh huh. Interviewer: He was, yeah. Mrs. Clements: But I don‟t know if you want all of this. Interviewer: Well we don‟t have to know all about everything. Let‟s just stop for a moment. I‟d thought I‟d like to ask you a little about the social life of the period when you were married and what, what, what did people, young married people do in those days? Mrs. Clements: Awful lot of dancing, awful lot of dancing, and we had a very good theatre. The, the New York plays came on, you know, Powers theatre was, was wonderful. We went a great deal, and there was a great deal of entertaining and very formal entertaining, very lovely entertaining. I was thinking the other say in connection with the Voigt house. I remember a big reception there, and today it would be fun to go back and see how they, how they‟re doing what they did in those days, but it was so very formal, and very, very lovely. Beautifully done. Interviewer: Who were some of the other people who entertained in a rather elaborate fashion? Mrs. Clements: Well, the, Robert Irwins and the Booths and, and oh I don‟t know, a lot of Mother‟s friends that did a great deal of entertaining, and very formal. Mother used to, had such, wore such beautiful clothes and, I wish I had them. I wish I had saved them for a museum today some of them. But, she would have a brougham brought around maybe once, or every other week or something like that and then go very formally calling all afternoon you know and, and on people who had entertained her and so forth and who had been kind to her moving to Grand Rapids and all. And it was very formal, with beautiful hats and all the ermine scarves the, all the lovely things that they wore. I, it, when I see my grandchild today I, I wonder what my mother would say. Interviewer: Did they have the dressmakers, is that where the clothes came from? Is…? Mrs. Clements: Yes, well, I remember was a wonderful tailor here, a man‟s tailor who also did women‟s clothes, and he made Mother some beautiful things. And the, the suits, I remember, a light blue broadcloth suit that went to the floor, long, afternoon suit you know and very formal, very dressy and very impractical. But you see there were no automobiles at all, and we‟d walk from, had to walk to school, where I went to Central Grammar, we not only walked up and back we came home at lunch. Interviewer: I see. �10 Mrs. Clements: And today when I can hardly wobble around well, why I think back at those walks and wonder how I ever did it. But they, the street-car of course ran up Cherry Street and then if you wanted to go downtown you were fine but to go visit anybody who lived over beyond Fulton or up on Fountain, there was no way of getting there. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: And we used to go out to Fran Russell‟s house for his ball-room for parties and we would take the bus and then we would have to transfer and take the old, little old Carrier street-car to get up to the country club, get up that way. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Clements: You know, to his house and all. Interviewer: Yes. Uh huh. That was pretty much out in the country in those days. Mrs. Clements: Oh, very far. We‟d carry our dancing slippers in a bag, you know, go in boots. I got boots, lace shoes I guess. Interviewer: Oh, I think the entertaining, in that family went on, right up through Janet‟s, teens or at least almost into her teens. Mrs. Clements: Oh, Mrs. Russell was wonderful. She was always open-housed. It was just wonderful. No matter what you wanted to go you could always go there. And we had many a good time. Interviewer: You spoke of dancing, were, was this usually in people‟s homes, like at the Russells for instance, or..? Mrs. Clements: Well, a great deal, but then they had, we had a lot of dances; there were a lot of, of charity dances and all. Interviewer: Where did they take place? Mrs. Clements: Well, now for instance one, I remember so well a woman‟s board entertainment that they had up in the, in the Press building. And then the first, when the Press building was first built there was a big dance, a big floor up on the top floor. And we had a wonderful party up there. With living models and, all the prettiest girls in town modeling, you know. And then they, then there was a dance floor on top of the Regent Theatre which is gone now. And we had, and I remember that the Junior League had a big dance up there. And there were, the Saint Cecilia of course was always available. Interviewer: Were you ever in any of Miss Calla Travis‟ classes? Mrs. Clements: Oh, yes, yes. I and my daughter and my granddaughter. �11 Interviewer: In what way was your life affected by the First World War? Mrs. Clements: Well, we‟ve been watching those pictures, the World at War, which of course is the Second World War but, of course we didn‟t have radio, we didn‟t have television. We had newspapers and extra-papers that were out about every hour of the day, you know, the boys yelling the news. Interviewer: Uh hum. Mrs. Clements: And, but we didn‟t visualize it the way we do today. I mean, you have Vietnam right in your dining room while you‟re having dinner every night and I don‟t know that, we read about it, of course. I was married in four in fourteen and my first baby was born in fifteen and the other one in seventeen so I was awfully busy with babies; and I wasn‟t as active. My mother and mother-in-law were both very active in Red-Cross work. But I didn‟t, couldn‟t „cause I had a handicapped child that I had to stay home with, and I don‟t think, I don‟t think it sank in, I was too young, and I, when I look back at it, I think maybe that‟s what‟s the matter with the young people today. I doesn‟t really, they don‟t really understand what‟s happening. We‟ve watched those pictures the last few Sunday‟s and we never visualized the war as it really was. It was so, so much worse. Interviewer: I think there was a great deal of a rather fervent patriotism. Mrs. Clements: Oh yes and, and, everybody was for it and everybody was together and singing all the patriotic songs you know and all. And there was a great deal of, oh and when the war was over the excitement was just terrific. Everybody swarmed downtown and so excited, and today we all take it with such apathy, we‟ve seen it all before. And it was that First World War but of course we had such high hopes it was going to end wars but when the Second World War came it disillusioned us so and was so much more dreadful. It‟s been hard to have much hope for the world since then. Interviewer: I want to go back and ask you to recollect a little bit about early automobiles. And Michigan of course is the Automobile state, or at least it still is to a very large extent, and you mentioned that you didn‟t have automobiles when you were small and didn‟t, weren‟t all, not around and you relied largely on street-cars for any long distances. Mrs. Clements: When I was in Chicago as a little girl, I can remember just before I left Chicago, riding in my first automobile. And that was kind of what they called the buckboard; just two seats with the board over the transmission up to the back. Interviewer: Uh huh. Mrs. Clements: And the, when I went back, maybe three years later, I probably don‟t think I was in Chicago again for three years, that interval, why, there were a great many automobiles in Chicago; and electric automobiles that some of my friends had. But in Grand Rapids there were �12 very few. The Welshes had a car and the Mac, MacCardners had a car and a few people. And very often they would take us for a ride on a Sunday or they would take us to the Country Club or there was something like that. But there were very few cars in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Do you remember when you first, when they first began to become more prevalent, about what time would you say that, can you date it, when, when cars began to be fairly common? Mrs. Clements: Well, after the war. Interviewer: After the war? The nicest there was to be. Mrs. Clements: After the war. And I know my husband took an old Franklin and we modeled it into a Roadster and we thought it was just the ultra thing. And today even when you see a picture of it, it was awfully funny. Interviewer: Was that your first car? Mrs. Clements: That was our first car, personally. But of course his family had had cars. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: My father never had a car, he never learned to drive. Interviewer: Uh huh. Mrs. Clements: But the Clements had them almost from the beginning. But I drove for a great many years and then was having difficulty with neuralgia and I stopped. And I haven‟t driven for a quite a few years. So I‟m dependant on my daughter now. Interviewer: Surely. We, we‟ve mentioned, or you have mentioned on one of two occasions, in the course of this interview, Kent County Club. Can you tell us a little bit about what it was like in those days? Mrs. Clements: Very much like it is today. Just as lovely. It‟s never, it‟s never let go of that first feeling that you had there. It was just the nicest place there was to be. And of course the new building is, I think, ultimately, the ultimate. It‟s just perfect. But it was a lovely place and in those days we used it more for family groups, I think then they do [now]. Of course the prices weren‟t so high. But I mean, Fourth of July, New Year‟s Day, Easter, all the different holidays, we always were there for dinner, with the whole family. Interviewer: Uh hum. Surely Mrs. Clements: And fire-crackers on the Fourth of July. We sat on the veranda and watched and they had them down at the last hole there. And I have always loved it. �13 Interviewer: Well, it‟s quite an institution, goes back, I think into the nineties. I guess you probably know it was out originally where Mr. Bissell‟s house… Mrs. Clements: Well Mr. Bissell‟s house was the club house and where we built our house on the corner of Plymouth and Lake Drive was the first tee. Interviewer: I see, what‟s the, what‟s the address on Plymouth? Mrs. Clements: Five fifty-one. Interviewer: Five fifty-one? Mrs. Clements: Where Cath and Widwordy. [Cath and Woodrick?] Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: We built that house in about twenty-two , twenty-two I think it was. Interviewer: Where had you lived when you were first married? Mrs. Clements: First in an apartment on Paris Avenue. And then on Byron Street we bought a little new house after the war that was very modern, we thought, and we lived there for quite a few years and then moved, then built the house on Plymouth Road until we went to Tennessee. Interviewer: That‟s quite a beautiful house. Mrs. Clements: Well it was. It was wonderful for the family. It‟d be much too big today. But it was perfect in its day. Interviewer: I believe that one of the things that you could call an accomplishment or distinction at least, is that you were the first president of the Junior League, is that not true? And would you tell us how, about some of the other people who were associated with you in that, and whence it came? Mrs. Clements: Well, there was, there was an old guild called the Butterfly Guild of Butterworth Hospital and we took care of maternity cases and we sewed for the nurse, nursery and made curtains for the rooms and things like that. And one day one of the, one of my friends said, “Nellie, why don‟t you apply for membership in the Junior League?” And she told me a little bit about it and then Chuck Palmer‟s wife, Laura Palmer was here one day and she was a member of the Junior League of Atlanta and I invited her to my house on Plymouth Road when we‟re having a meeting to tell us about it. And the girls were all quite inspired and we all thought well, it‟d be a good idea. Well, a couple, maybe a month or so later I happened to be on the train going to New York with my husband and I thought this would be a good chance for me to go and see about that. So, without any authorization, I just went in, made an appointment and the AJLA was just being originated and the New York League of course was a going concern but the AJLA was �14 just, that‟s the Association for the Junior League of America. They had a roll-top desk, and old oak roll-top desk in one corner of the New York Junior League‟s Office and that office was upstairs in the, what do you call, not the Chauffer but the horse driver, where the horses, in the carriage shop. Interviewer: Coachman. Mrs. Clements: The coachman‟s quarters. Up in, in can old carriage house over, oh I think it must have been in the thirties over maybe past Madison Avenue and down in the thirties over there. I don‟t remember just exactly where it was. Anyway, I made, made an appointment and went over there. And they gave me all kinds of papers and a skeleton constitution to work on and so forth and I brought it back to Grand Rapids and we got to work. And Jo Bender and Dorothy Wilcox and I drew up the articles of the constitution and so forth. And within a year, we were admitted to the League, to the AJLA. Well in those days you, the retirement age of forty, which still exists, we had quite a time, because so many of our members didn‟t want to admit to being forty. And we had one family of three daughters who had the most remarkable mother because they all were within nine months of each other on the records. Well anyway that was all straightened out and then we were allowed to transfer some of our members who had been members in Grand Rapids to the leagues where they were then. Well we had a little difficulty with one of those. One league didn‟t want a certain girl. We had quite a time. But all those things were, they were details, but interesting. And then we worked out the, we divided the League into teams and we used the hour system, that they had to do a certain number of hours and all that. I don‟t believe that they‟d be able to put those rules into effect today. Nobody‟d pay any attention. But in those days everybody took them very seriously. And we were doing this maternity work at Butterworth of trying to encourage mothers to have their babies in the hospital. Today we‟re reversing the thing and wanting them in their rooms with their family around and all that. Well, in those days, there were very few admittances in the maternity department. And they, the doctors were urging it because it made it so much easier for them to do it at the hospital than at home. And we started that, we had a fund for the maternity fund and when we went into the Junior League we had to break our connections with Butterworth, which broke Mrs. Lowe‟s heart. I didn‟t think she was ever going to talk to me again, but she did. And we severed the relations and we turned over the money to Butterworth, it‟s now the Butterfly Guild Fund of the Junior League, or something like that anyway, at Butterworth. Then we went into taking care of part-pay patients. People who didn‟t feel they could afford to go to the hospital. And when they were referred by the physician as worthy and needing, we wools send a committee to investigate and refer back to our committee for affirmation and we took care of a great many mothers. Well that went on until medi…, until Social Security came in. (That isn‟t right). Interviewer: Well it went on for some time? Mrs. Clements: Yes. And when it was taken over you see, so that it wasn‟t necessary anymore, and now the guild is in such diverse agencies, they‟re doing, they‟re just overwhelming. I can‟t, I �15 read their reports and I just can‟t believe all the things that they‟re doing. They‟re doing a simply magnificent job. Interviewer: What year was the League founded actually, in Grand Rapids? Mrs. Clements: In twenty-four. Interviewer: And how long were you president? Mrs. Clements: Well I was president of the Butterfly Guild for two years and then two years of the Junior League so four, really four years there. Interviewer: Who succeeded you as president? Mrs. Clements: Florence Steele… Interviewer: Mrs. Steele? Mrs. Clements: …and then Jo Bender. Interviewer: Uh huh. Mrs. Clements: And we three were the ones who signed the articles of incorporation. Interviewer: You also spoke of, of having been a past president of the Women‟s City Club. Which I believe has just celebrated its Fiftieth Anniversary. When were you president of that, Mrs. Clements? Mrs. Clements: In thirty, nineteen thirty-one to thirty-three, thirty-one to thirty-three. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: I don‟t know if it was thirty Interviewer: Well that‟s close enough. Mrs. Clements: Thirty to thirty-two I guess it was. Interviewer: Was [it] in the present building at that, by that time? Mrs. Clements: Yes, yes they just moved in shortly before. Interviewer: Where were they before that? Mrs. Clements: Down in that little building on, across from Rood‟s on that little side street, Park Avenue. It‟s been torn down, it was an old building, I think… Interviewer: Is that the Godfrey house? �16 Mrs. Clements: Yes, yes. The old Godfrey house. Interviewer: Yeah. Mrs. Clements: Next to the Godfrey house, yes. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: And that, it owned by Dr. Barth and he leased it to us and they built a big dining room there to make facilities there available and they stayed there for two or three years and that‟s when Estelle Wolf was a manager down there. And then they bought the property which is the old Sweet house, first mayor of Grand Rapids. And Mrs. Waters and Mrs. Noyes Avery were the two who remodeled that and planned it all and gave a great deal for, toward it. And Mrs. Bowen was the first president of the Women‟s City Club and then Mrs. Hen, Mrs. Russ Hendricks and Miss Keck and then Mrs. Dudley Waters and then I; and then Mrs. Warner and Mrs. Avery. So you have all those original people. Interviewer: Yeah. Mrs. Clements: Although I wasn‟t in on the start of it because I was so involved with the Junior League in those days that I didn‟t think I was ever going to need it. But within a year of joining why I was Activities chairman and then vice-president and then president. They kept me going. But of course my, well I wouldn‟t say my, I think the Junior League is my first love causes I really have been so proud of that achievement; but the thing that, the place that I have really worked the longest is Butterworth Hospital. And that, I started when I first, when I was about twelve years old when I first came to Grand Rapids. Mrs. Millard Palmer was our neighbor, just two doors down Paris Avenue. And she started a little group of Golden Rule Girls. And we set out to earn a child‟s wheelchair which they didn‟t have in the hospital and it was to cost twentyfive dollars. And we worked, we made molasses candy, and we made pot-holders and we worked our little heads off to earn that twenty-five dollars. And while we were, just before we got to our peak, my Aunt from St. Louis came on. She was so intrigued with it and she said, “Well if you girls earn the twenty-five dollars I‟ll give you another twenty-five dollars so you can buy two wheelchairs.” So that started that, and from then on Mrs. Palmer was, Mrs. Palmer was on the board of Butterworth and she, I think, was instrumental in asking, getting me to go on that board; and I went, I have been on the board now fifty-two years. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: I‟m an honorary member now and I don‟t go very often but I‟m still just as interested. Interviewer: When you were, when you first as a, as a child, when you were twelve years old, what was Butterworth Hospital called and where was it located? �17 Mrs. Clements: It was where the nurse‟s home is today. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: And there were three little cottages that ran down through the park there, little wooden frame houses. And one was for medical care, I think and one was the obstetrical care and I‟ve forgotten what the third one was. But they had, we had all those mothers and babies in that little wooden frame house. And in those days if you got out of bed before two weeks you were going to die you know, you weren‟t allowed out of bed. And it was upstairs and the delivery room was downstairs and they carried you down those little rickety steps to the delivery room and back up. And the babies were left downstairs in cribs, a long row of cribs attached to each other. And many a night I lay awake thinking what would happen if they had a fire in that place. And it was great relief when that was discontinued. Interviewer: Was it called Butterworth Hospital then? Mrs. Clements: Um Hum. Interviewer: I think it was originally St. Mark‟s Hospital. Mrs. Clements: Well that was before Interviewer: An outgrowth. Mrs. Clements: Yes, that was, that was down on Jefferson, I think, or Sheldon. Interviewer: Well, I‟m not sure. Mrs. Clements: It started down there. And, but then when it was there where the Nurses‟ home is today then Mr. Lowe gave the property where it is today, and with the stipulation that the city match the funds, and he would give a million dollars if they matched it. I think that a million dollars is right. And they raised that money and built the original hospital. And it was built with those two wings going out this way to the west and the straight building and then there were supposed to be two more wings out here. Well, after it was working, I think it was Dr. Rags…, during Dr. [L. V.] Ragsdale‟s time when they decided they had to build an addition. And they found that that was so impractical that nursing stations couldn‟t see these four ends you see, they couldn‟t control it and it meant nursing stations at both ends. And so then they built it with that long extension out to the west to facilitate the nursing end of it. I have always said it looks kind of like a boiler factory because it‟s got so many partitions and things. And it was a beautiful building when it started. Interviewer: I want to stop for a second and make sure that we‟re recording; I think we are but I just want to be on the safe side. Well, we were, are still recording apparently. Did you have any other interests besides the hospital, the Junior League, the Women‟s City Club? Any other club interests or philanthropic interests? �18 Mrs. Clements? Well I was a member of the Junior Diet Kitchen Guild of Butterworth for a good many years and in those years we started the theatre trains. And those were very successful and were lots of fun. A great many people enjoyed them. But that guild had been disbanded because everybody was too old to work anymore. Interviewer: I see. I know that you attend Grace Church, here in Grand Rapids. Have you always been a member of Grace Church? Mrs. Clements: No not until about nineteen fifty-six. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: My parents were not members and there was a little division of ideas there and I waited until they were gone, and then I joined. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: I‟d always gone to Grace Church for Sunday school and for when I wanted to go to church but I wasn‟t a very regular member but today I get a great deal out of it. Interviewer: Well… let‟s stop for a minute. I‟d like to ask you some questions about the people that you and Mr. Clements knew the best over the years. Can you give me and idea of some of the, of the families, couples, individuals that you got to know very well? Mrs. Clements: Well the, the Bill Steeles I guess would top the list of my favorites. And the Harvey Clays, and the Fosterhouses(?), Paul and Megan, Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Clements: And the, you want couples, don‟t you? Interviewer: Not necessarily, no. Mrs. Clements: Well, Jo Bender of course has always been such a good friend and Jeannette Warner and Esther Booth and then the Admiral Brouwers, and the Walter Palmers and oh, there‟s so many of them. Interviewer: I heard that Nancy‟s moved back to Grand Rapids. Mrs. Clements: Right here in the building, in the next building. Interviewer: Yeah. You should have gone on that trip, last week to Ann Arbor to... Mrs. Clements: I didn‟t think I was quite up to it. I‟m better sitting still. Interviewer: I see. �19 Mrs. Clements: Nellie [her daughter] said that was a lovely occasion and she enjoyed it thoroughly. I was sorry not to have gone. Interviewer: Yes, it was very well done. I want to ask you a little bit about downtown Grand Rapids, when you were young. Do you remember any particular stores where you like to shop? Mrs. Clements: Well Spring‟s, what was it? Interviewer: Friedman-Spring‟s? Mrs. Clements: Friedman-Spring‟s was the nicest shop in those days and they really, they really did a thing. Of course Foster Stevens was a forerunner of Rood‟s, they were a wonderful shop. And then there were lovely dress-shops when they came in, the gown shop and the, that one up on the corner of Fulton and LaGrave. Miss… Interviewer: I can‟t tell you. Mrs. Clements: Oh, there were some really very, very nice shops, after clothes became well made and available. Interviewer: So you didn‟t really have to shop in Chicago anymore? Mrs. Clements: No, you, no. I think today that you can do almost as well here, right here as you can, you get into New York or Chicago, and you don‟t see a thing you haven‟t seen here nowadays. Perhaps more quantity but I don‟t think on the normal run of things that you do any better away from here. Interviewer: Where do you do your grocery shopping today? Mrs. Clements: Same old place that we‟ve been doing it for sixty years, the Daane and Witters. Interviewer: I sort of guessed that but, I didn‟t really know. Mrs. Clements: Well, I don‟t know what I‟d do without them, because they deliver even way out here today and I wouldn‟t be able to carry all those groceries. They and American Laundry still comes out and the stores deliver so it‟s wonderful but I don‟t know what I‟d do without DaaneWitters. And then another store that I used to love so was Herkner‟s. Those men are all gone, that‟s all changed. Interviewer: What were some of Mr. Clements‟ interests besides the Globe Knitting Works? Mrs. Clements: Just fishing. Interviewer: Just fishing? �20 Mrs. Clements: Just fishing; that took all his thoughts. He had a place up on the little Manistee River on, near Peacock there, between Peacock and Baldwin. He loved that I think better than he did me. Interviewer: I remember the triangle club that… Mrs. Clements: yeah. Interviewer: …that always had a party around Christmas time and it came to the point where the men brought their sons or sons-in-law. And I remember your husband being there and he was one of the organizers and one of the stirrer uppers. Mrs. Clements: Yes, oh and they had such fun when they were young. Those parties were great. Interviewer: Yup. Mrs. Clements: Well, he loved it because the boys did come in and take over at the end; but they had good times. Interviewer: Yeah, have you done much traveling in your life? Mrs. Clements: Very little cause I‟ve been, I‟ve had my Bobby to be around. Interviewer: Yeah, yeah Mrs. Clements: But we did have our first trip to Europe last year, Nellie and I went on the Women‟s City Club tour for just nine days and went to England and to London and to Edinburough, and we thoroughly enjoyed it. Interviewer: You, you had some relatives that came from Scotland? Mrs. Clements: I had, we still had one cousin left up in Scotland and we went to see her in Edinborough. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: And as I say we picked the coldest day in a hundred and two years. I never want to be so cold again. Interviewer: Do you play bridge? Mrs. Clements: I love it. Interviewer: You‟re a good bridge player I take it. Mrs. Clements: I don‟t play much anymore but I just really truly love to play. �21 Interviewer: We always have one question that we ask, I say we ask, you‟re the first person I‟ve interviewed but the previous people who have done the interviewing seem to have one question they like to ask and that is, what is the greatest change that you‟ve noticed since you were a small? What, what has changed the most in life? Is there one, one particular thing that has changed a great deal or, or what, what has…? Mrs. Clements: I suppose the morals. Interviewer: The morals? Mrs. Clements: What we were taught to believe and to do and to act on, don‟t see those things don‟t seem to matter much anymore. And I don‟t know whether it‟s for the, for better or worse. Interviewer: Why do you think it‟s occurred? Mrs. Clements: I don‟t know. It‟s a whole generation that has changed, because as I look back my grandmother, my mother, myself, my daughter, we all went along pretty much in the same pattern. Maybe improving on each other… Interviewer: Now I asked you before do you think that this project of, of interviewing older people who have lived in Grand Rapids most of their lives or all of their lives is something of value? Mrs. Clements: Oh I do because even if the children don‟t appreciate it today they will as they grow older and they‟ll look, they‟ll know that, while we probably have made up our mistakes, we have tried. Interviewer: Well I think that will conclude our interview. INDEX A Association for the Junior League of America · 14 Avery, Mrs. Noyes · 16 B Bender, Josephine · 14, 15, 18 Bissell, Mr. · 13 Booth Family · 9 Bowen, Mrs. · 16 Butterfly Guild · 13, 14, 15 Butterworth Hospital · 13, 16, 17 C Calder, Emma C. Bluthardt (Mother) · 1, 9, 11, 21 Calder, Robert Gillon (Father) · 1, 2, 12 Central Grammar School · 5, 9 Clements, Earle Arthur (Husband) · 6, 8, 18, 19 Clements, Nellie (Daughter) · 1, 10, 12, 13, 19, 20 Clements, Roy · 6, 7 D Daane-Witters · 19 �22 F Fisher, Mary · 4 Friedman-Spring’s · 19 G Globe Knitting Works · 6, 19 Golden Rule Girls · 16 Grace Church · 18 Michigan Chair Company · 2 Mills, Nifty · 4 Miss Moffat’s School · 5 Murray, Mary · 4 N Nelson-Matter Furniture Company · 2 P H Palmer, Mrs. Millard · 16 Harvey Clay Family · 18 Howe Military School · 8 R J Ragsdale, Dr. L.V. · 17 Robert Irwins Family · 9 Russell, Fran · 10 Johnson-Handley · 2 Junior Diet Kitchen Guild of Butterworth · 18 Junior League · 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 S K Keck, Miss · 4, 5, 16 Kent County Club · 2, 12 L Liesveld, Herman · 6 M Maddox, Olive · 4 Spence School · 5 Steele, Florence · 15 W Warner, Jeanette · 16, 18 Waters, Mrs. · 16 Wealthy Avenue Street School · 3 Wilcox, Dorothy · 14 Wolf, Estelle · 16 Women’s City Club · 5, 15, 16, 17, 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46f7fd0da6c30151863c533c07d1289e.mp3 ec9fc828c8438e406bd553db2c7bf666 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_41Clements Title A name given to the resource Clements, Nellie Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Clements, Nellie Description An account of the resource Nellie Calder was born in Chicago on August 12, 1893. She married Earle Clements in 1914. She organized the Junior League with Josephine Bender and was at one time the president of the Women's City Club. Mrs. Clements traveled to Europe with the Women's City Club. She also worked with maternity cases at Butterworth Hospital. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1b61b1fc1cfe84acbb5dffe036fa2b85.pdf 6665751455d5ab2218b2c41a21e32c45 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Robert Davis Interviewed on October 1, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 25, 26 Biographical Information Robert Leland Davis was born 4 May 1894 in Grand Rapids, the son of George Albert Davis and Alice Barnard. Robert died 21 December 1979 in Grand Rapids. Coming to Grand Rapids in the 1880‟s from New England, George A. Davis was a founder of the Stowe & Davis Furniture Company. He later was president of the Grand Rapids School board for many years. George was born on 3 January 1853 in Windsor County, Vermont. He passed away on 27 March 1935 at the family home on Fountain Street. George was married to Alice Barnard in Springfield, Vermont in September 1882. Alice was born on 3 October 1853 in Springfield and died at the age of 85 in Grand Rapids on 30 March 1939. ___________ Interviewer: O.K. Yeah, you were saying about Fountain Street? Mr. Davis: Well I‟m one of the few people in the city living in the same house I was born in. There at five thirty-five Fountain Street. My father was, I can talk about it now, came west and bought the place about eighteen oh, eighty-five or there abouts. Oh, the next, the nearest neighbor was on the south side, a Mr. Charles W. Pike who has passed and his family has moved out. On the east side was a vacant block and, I‟ve forgotten, I think it was a family by the name Lamoreaux [William T.] that bought the place on the east. The neighbors around there, across the street were the Bundys and other, which were related to the Hollisters and Hollister was, well the mainstay of the Old National Bank, it was called the Old National in those days. The Old Kent is the name they‟ve taken on when they combined the Old National and the, oh I guess it was called the Kent County Savings Bank. And they were then in the corner of, now I wonder if they moved out of the Pantlind Hotel, that place now called the… Interviewer: Known as the Bank? Mr. Davis: Yeah, of course that‟s all new there, I mean when they built the Pantlind Hotel they, they had a corner built on there, just like the oh, Kent County Savings Bank or the Kent had the north, no the southwest corner of Lyon and Monroe. That‟s where WZZM or something like that, are in there now. But that was a, originally a bank. That was the one Old Kent formed they went in with them at that [ ? ] I mean it was the south of the other place now called the Bank, which [drinking started] and see the Pantlind Hotel, as I recall was built, the present Pantlind was about nineteen between twelve or �2 eleven or maybe fourteen or somewhere along in there. And that was quite a place built in those days. It‟s still quite a place, but on the other hand it isn‟t as new as it was, when I remember it then. And, now as I say, my father bought the place on Fountain Street and now I have lived there all the time since. I say that with reservations. I was an engineer in Westinghouse, living in Pittsburg for a number of years, I lived in Massachusetts for a number of years, but I always kept my legal residence in Grand Rapids. I might have lived in an apartment and had all the outward appearances of being a citizen of Pittsburg but when I wanted to vote, I voted here. Ganson Taggart our attorney, family attorney, was city attorney and he said well if you‟re interested you better keep it here and I said what do I have to do and he says just vote every time and I had this absent voters laws so I could vote by remote control you might say, here in Grand Rapids. Of course I was interested in the Grand Rapids activities because my father was on the Board of Education. And also in, had connections with other things around here such as StoweDavis Furniture Company and things like that. Interviewer: Did your father, was he one of the founders of Stowe-Davis? Mr. Davis: I wouldn‟t say he was a founder but he came here and bought into it, bought, when he moved into town in eighteen eighty-five. It was then a concern called Stowe and Height [Haight], I think. H-e-i-g-h-t or something like that and a, Height [Thomas D. Haight], my father bought him out and then a number of years later, I think L. C. Stowe was, see there‟s several Stowes around town here so, sold out but then he had the major stockholding in the company. Then of course when he retired, why that‟s now gone over to well the Hunting family I judge. That is the Steelcase and that crowd. Hunting in those days was one of my father‟s, associates. Interviewer: Which Hunting was that, David or the old man? Mr. Davis: Well, I don‟t know who you call the old man. The old man that I knew, I meant the, I think it was Edgar Hunting. He was well quite a bit older than I was, naturally and David Hunting I think the one you referred to, I‟m not too sure of him. I think a, he was a little bit older than I am. He graduated in the high school a year or two before me. But he was, and then of course was a series of other Huntings coming along… Interviewer: Well, your father served on the board of education. Was he connected at all with Davis Tech? Mr. Davis: Well, you can call it that. A, he was very much interested in promoting, a well [whether] you call it, technical high school. But you see he had an awful time with me. I cordially disliked school and one of the things he seemed to realize was that there wasn‟t enough technical stuff to keep me interested. And this Latin and all that line of stuff, well my mother who was very much, what do you call them, classical person, she made me hang on to that and he saw to it I kept on going to school. But he realized, I guess that it‟d be better to have a sort of technical school. I don‟t know if you call it really technical, not in my line of thought I wouldn‟t call it that but anyway it was �3 something. And I know he stated one time, it should be a type of school so if anybody quits for any one week, he could feel that the week before he had learned something of practical value. In other words if he had to quit at any time and go and get a job, why he‟d picked up something in the previous weeks which would do him some good. Rather than waiting for the Latin and the Greek and the corruption of that kind, that‟s what I called it, to do some good. Oh I can remember back in those days. You took a lot of English, Ancient English, what good did Chaucer do me? What good did all that kind of stuff do me? See, I‟m an engineer. I happen to be one of the few professional, and I don‟t say few but one of the professional, registered engineers in the city. I‟ve been a college prof[essor] and taught engineering and I‟ve got degrees from Massachusetts Institute of Tech and University of Michigan and I‟m an engineer inherently. All the rest of my family are lawyers. I‟m the only black sheep in the family. I‟ve no objection to lawyers but after all, they‟re the kind that stick to the commas and semi-colons. They don‟t concern themselves with, well, should I say the facts of life. They‟re going go with the law. The law. Well, I probably shouldn‟t be quoted on this but, in my mind I think the lawyers need to have a going over somewhere. Here‟s a thing somebody said as a joke but I can well believe it about true. It was said that one of the later states that is new, Arizona, New Mexico came in, or applied to come in or applied to come in and they set up their, oh what do you call it, laws and regulations and things like that. They had in there, whatever it was, a rule that the circumference of a circle should be three times the diameter in that area because that was convenient. Now, anybody who would do that is just so darn dumb and I don‟t know whether they‟re going or coming because there‟s nothing more fundamental in the universe, than that constant of pi. Just as a thing that is rather interesting, it is said that somewhere over in Europe, some monk or somebody like that who was secluded, he worked on a series to work out the value of pi and he carried it on out to seven hundred decimal places. It never comes to an end and never repeats, so trying to say it‟s going to be three times and that‟s all, why you might just as well said the length of the year is going to be something else. You can‟t change it. And pi is more fundamental even than the length of the year. A few million years, the length of the year is going to change. Nothing‟s ever going to change pi. Interviewer: Yeah… Mr. Davis: Now of course, somebody said that that‟s a joke to show that the lawyers stay with the as a, that‟s the law, well that‟s what it‟s going to be. They‟re going to decide cases on that. It couldn‟t be any cases are decided on that, well what are you going to do? It‟s not right but they have it set up that way. Just like they could go and call red green and green, red. That‟s the law. You see, I got my background of, oh I wouldn‟t say antagonistic to lawyers but, it amuses me how they operate. For instance, I had a cousin who was quite a high powered lawyer, he in his days in college, he was a great football player. And he liked to cite how he played and he won this game and won that game and he did this and he did that. Then he got through the law, high school or college and so on and took the law, then he liked to cite how he got to be a prosecuting attorney. And he likes to say how he won this case and he won that case, and he did this and he did that. Well, I said maybe you shouldn‟t have. Oh, but he says, that‟s what I got to do. Now, what do you do? That shows my attitude towards lawyers. They‟re more �4 concerned with the commas and the semi-colons than they are with the spirit of things. Gee, whiz look, you‟re recording all this stuff. Look what you‟re going to do to me, I‟ll be in jail… Interviewer: …Well you were, you were just talking about change and, you know, talking about change, how has the city changed since you know when you were [alive] growing up? Mr. Davis: Well, of course in those days we had practically no well-paved streets, I mean it was, well I might call „em macadam. But they weren‟t like they are now. So after a rain, why the streets had irregularities and a lot of puddles around. And of course we had streetcars then. And, oh I would say they were more convenient than they are now with the present buses. Fact is the streetcars used to run on a schedule in the middle of the day at every six minutes. You‟d go out and stand on the corner and just like that a car would be along for you. Of course, as an engineer I‟m very much interested in the streetcars.. The Lyon Street Hill Line had a special breaking system because it was steep and, oh there was a lot of things that I got interested along that line. And I think it‟s very unfortunate that, well, what should I say, situation is not suitable for fixed transportation like streetcars. That is you can‟t expect people to go out and stand in the street with the auto traffic these days. On the other hand it had been much better if we had equivalent of the street cars, well you might even say trolley-buses. They, they had those in Detroit for a while. They‟ve had „em in a lot of cities but, oh I don‟t know the economics and things don‟t seem to be too good. They can draw up at the curb, but of course they have the same trouble as the streetcars, they had fixed routes and well if something happens, well you‟re stuck on your fixed route, you can‟t go on around the block like on a regular bus can. And, well things like that I think it‟s very unfortunate we don‟t have more viewpoint of that type of transportation. Poor old city of Grand Rapids, well here again, of course it‟s my native town, I feel like I can take it apart if I want to. I think it‟s about the poorest operated engineering town of any place I know of. An illustration of that, as I mentioned this before, I looked up the number of engineers, registered engineers, professionals, in the city and there‟s fewer engineers per unit of population here in Grand Rapids than any other city in the state. In other words we‟re, we‟re just, well, I‟ll almost say a kind of an enlarged Rockford or something like that. We‟re just a bigger town. The companies that really do business here do most of their engineering outside. Bell Telephone Company, the other companies, they‟re all engineers from either Detroit or some other place. Grand Rapids is just a place to live or exist or something like that. And that‟s too bad, too much of a common attitude. We ought to have more people on the city commission say, that have an engineering background. They don‟t. Look we‟re full of insurance guys and oh, people [of] that kind, I was going to say, undertakers and whatnot, the undertaker‟s gone, but that‟s about what it is. What do they know about anything? They don‟t know anything. Interviewer: Was it different when you were growing up, the city commission, the composition of the city commission? �5 Mr. Davis: Well of course in those days we had the city, that‟s the thing I would like to, gee whiz you‟re getting me into awful mess. I would like to feel that we‟re going to have a return to what we used to have, namely aldermen and a mayor. My youngest days, up to the time I was about a senior in high school, I graduated in twelve[1912], we had the aldermen, 12 wards, two aldermen from each ward. Well, you know how things go in cycles. All of a sudden they got excited and they said we‟ve got to have a commission form of government. Some of it good. But look what happened, look what we got. As long as it went along on a good form of commission form of government with proper people in there, I think it wasn‟t too bad. They got a lot of us young fellows in high school to go out and stand on corners and hand out stuff and promote the city commission. Well it apparently got in. Now I‟d work just as hard to put it back out again, because we need more representation of the people. In those days, you had aldermen around, two aldermen for your ward. Of course he had a smaller group to look after, you might call it that. If you wanted something, I mean felt something ought to be changed, you could go down and talk with him and he was, why I don‟t mean to say he could do an awful lot, I mean he might not upset anything, he would at least be more, well I won‟t say more polite, but I mean more cognizant of what you were, willing to be cognizant of what you were doing. Now you go down and talk with the city commissioner, well, that‟s in the hands of the city manager. Now I‟d have thrown that city manager out there so far he‟d never come to surface. They have no business having a manager like that, who‟s little king god in the glass case down there, and he runs the town. I don‟t know which side of the fence you‟re on, I can see you‟re laughing, he acts as if he ran the town. He, the city commission rubber stamps what he wants. Now I got no use for that. I‟d say that maybe we need a city manager, a fellow who would be kind of a high grade book-keeper and well not exactly a lawyer but look at the things with the city man, the city commission tells him what to do, want the city commission to be enough of „em so that if they‟re going to look after you in your ward when you‟re, represent something, or want something, they‟ll say yes, we‟ll think about it, we‟ll do what we can. We‟ll give it consideration. Now they say that‟s in the hands of the city manager. Interviewer: Well who ran the town? If the city manager is running the town today, who ran the town a…? Mr. Davis: Well, it [goes] to the city a, the alder-man and the mayor. Now of course there used to be squabbles, and they said that the aldermen got crooked. Hell, my attitude is, if they got crooked, that‟s just up [to] the citizens to throw „em out. You used to hear about some petty graft of one kind or another, anything from garbage collection to what not, which they‟re squabbling over now. They, who got it, well they‟d be saying so and so‟s working and he was well associated with such and such and I don‟t know what [I‟m talking] you know. Well, I‟d rather have it in the shape of somebody who‟s gonna be interested in what you want, rather than what we got now. Now, being of course an engineer I‟ m all strong for having better engineering. And poor old Grand Rapids don‟t seem to have enough sense to know what to do. Let‟s cite a couple of things. I‟ve been a member of the Engineers‟ Club for a number of years. Oh I don‟t know, about in the late thirties when I came back here, that was because my father was in his last days and he, �6 they said you got to come back, to look after some of the family affairs. So I came back to Grand Rapids, and doing what I could of course, then I, I got mixed up in the Engineers‟ Club and they were then getting ready for the pipe line, they were fussing about it. And, well we said that they ought to have some engineers studying the thing and then, the mayor then went and appealed the Engineers‟ Club and anyway he got a committee started. I happened to be on that committee. And we recommended then to put in at least a sixty-inch pipeline and perhaps bigger. Look what they did they put in a forty-six. We knew it was gonna, was going wrong, but that‟s what you got. Well, I mean the type of, remember that‟s the city commission and, and aldermen. That‟s what they said you got to do. Another illustration of how they, they sort of needled us over it, obviously when they lay out a pipeline you try to lay it out according to engineering principles and grades and things like that. They said to me later on, are you working for Frank McKay? And I said no, what makes you think so? Well you got that running across some of his land. Well I tell „em I can‟t help the geography of the place. If the pipeline ought to go along that place because of the grades, well that‟s where it ought to go. Well that‟s part of Frank McKay‟s land you‟re recommend that he get some sold or you know. They made me so peeved one time that I went and told this bird, I said look if you, I‟ll quit the city entirely and I don‟t care whether it burns down or not. But if you‟re gonna look at things that way. Interviewer: Well, before they had the pipeline, where‟d they get their water? Mr. Davis: Oh, out of the river. And it was a pretty dirty mess. Why perhaps I shouldn‟t say that. Back in about nineteen eleven or twelve, I can remember as a youngster, they built the filtration plant that‟s down there where it is now. And they took water out of the river. Prior to that they‟d taken it right out of the river with no filtration. And I can remember in my youngest days, which is about nineteen hundred when I began to remember things, they used to have to boil all the water. It was all the health authorities recommended, any water used for drinking, you boil. Well, I don‟t know. I guess most of us did, at least that was up to my mother to run the kitchen department. I don‟t know what she did but anyway that was one of the things. Interviewer: Was there any sickness or anything that… Mr. Davis: Oh yeah, typhoid fever was much more prevalent than it is now. I guess we‟re fairly healthy now. But even at that, it‟s not too good a water supply because on the basis of what we figured it, you needed a bigger pipeline. There‟s not enough water in the city despite that, in the summer, despite that report that came in that we could get along for a while because during the summer months, they take water out of the river, to augment what they get over the pipeline. And of course they, they treat it some, but it still, is much harder than Lake Michigan water would be on a normal basis if we had straight Lake Michigan water. Well anyway it just shows that poor old Grand Rapids has got no engineering background. Another thing that griped me [to] no end, as an engineer, I‟m [an] electrical engineer, I believe in running everything electrical that you can. But there‟re some things that you got to be very fundamental about. Water is one of ‟em. You need water whether the juice fails or not. You can‟t run a hundred percent safe on �7 electrical pumps. Pipeline can be, I mean the transmission lines can get knocked down, or they can have sub-stations get knocked out, things like that. When the water works ran by steam, and there‟s a lot of good size cities that still do that and it‟s fundamental, you‟re independent. Maybe you can‟t furnish all the water they want but at least you‟ve got enough so that the power company can‟t close up for half a day while the Russians knock „em out or something like that. And you‟re dependent on the water. Of course they say, well we got storage. Yes, but that storage wouldn‟t last ya very long if we‟re totally dependent on outside power. A corollary end to that is that not too many years ago all the hospitals around here, the bigger ones used to have their own power plant, I can remember Butterworth out here, had its own power plant. Well, that‟s an ideal thing, make juice and then you have light and they run the elevators and it gives all the service you need and then you have heat from the exhaust when you need it and it‟s a very nice thing. Well, that costs a little more, the cost of labor‟s getting so high to hire engineers, I mean operating engineers to run the place is getting to be expensive. So the power company and I guess the board of directors of the hospitals says, well alright we‟ll buy power. And they went over and the power company went on a basis we‟ll furnish you two circuits, if both of „em won‟t get knocked out. Sounds good, but it wasn‟t too long before the power company and the people got together and they says look, we‟ve got to be sure about this. The telephone company, they want to be fundamentally supplied. They got a diesel engine down there to be used for auxiliary. Well, they recommend that the hospital put in a diesel and I think Butterworth has one. It won‟t furnish everything but it won‟t put „em black. Things like that, you got to think about. You might say, well it costs more. Well gee, insurance costs you more, why have insurance? Just get along and say I don‟t need insurance. But you buy insurance because you never know, you might want it. And to pay a little extra for auxiliary power, that‟s like the insurance. I‟m afraid I‟m getting off the track. I‟m just… Interviewer: Well, talking about electrical, what kind of electrical system did they have when you were a kid? Mr. Davis: Around here? Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Davis: Well a, the water works had an auxiliary, I don‟t mean auxiliary generator, but a little generator and it made power for some of the, for the street light, on a, first place it had quite a plant for making street lights. They were the old arc-light type. The plant, when I first remember it, was down on the river way over on the east bank of the river between Fulton and Wealthy. Down where the market is and about in there. And it furnished juice to run all the arc-lights around. And, well at one interesting corollary on that, somebody had the idea that you ought to light from overhead and so they had some of these high towers. I don‟t know if you ever heard of them, towers about a hundred feet high and they had four arc-lights up on the top of those. And they would, supposed to cover the neighborhood. Well it didn‟t, „cause the trees covered up [?] fundamentally it was probably a good idea. But after a while the towers got kind of questionable and they took „em down and then they distributed the lights around the neighborhood but they still �8 were lacking plenty of light. We‟re gradually improving it, but I can‟t kick too much on that. Poor old Grand Rapids can‟t scrape up enough money to light the place the way it ought to be but I do hate to see „em get totally, and I‟ve no objection to the power company, I‟ve got a lot of good friends down there, I don‟t like to see a thing like a city get totally in the clutches of a company and say look, at such and such a time we‟re gonna raise the rates, well and , go on that kind of a basis. If they had their own power plant down there, even though it‟s standing still, could say alright, we‟ll take over whatever load we need and make it ourselves. Now on that basis, that‟s another thing that gripes me to no end. They went and tore down the smokestack on the waterworks. You probably remember when that stood up there, a big tall smokestack. They tore that down, oh I don‟t know, somewhere in the last two-three years. It was a good smokestack. Probably hadn‟t used it for several years because it had gone over to electric power. But on the other hand it needed some proper touching up. That is you know, pointing, as they call brick work. They should have been pointing up. So somebody says oh well it‟s getting to be a hazard now. It isn‟t safe. It wasn‟t so old, there‟s lots of older smokestacks than that around town. But they didn‟t pay any attention to it. They didn‟t do anything. Interviewer: What did , where did the homes get their electricity? Mr. Davis: Oh, we bought that from the power company. That was quite common in those days. I mean that‟s about all you could get. You didn‟t want to make a power plant in your own home. Although I had that kind of a rig. I lived out on Silver Lake, out here in the summer time and of course then, I‟d gotten away from town, and with Westinghouse, and I had a chance to buy equipment. So I went and bought what they called farm light equipment. Remember those things they used to call farm lights? Farmers used to have those because they wanted light and power, small amounts. So I went and bought farm light equipment, or had it shipped up here, put it in the cottage, and for a number of years out here we lit the cottage on our own power plant. I like that kind of stuff. I got the generator for the place down I my cellar right now. And the engine is still out in the summer, the cottage. I don‟t know what to do with it, I‟ve been thinking I might give it to the library, I mean the museum, a place of that kind. Interviewer: Did you, did your family home have electricity from the time you can remember? Mr. Davis: Oh, no no. Interviewer: What, what did they have? Mr. Davis: Well, they had gas. Gas. And still, I go on the basis if I want fundamental things in there, so the gas piping is still in the house. I think possibly I should cut it off but I, I don‟t want to do that. I like to have it there. Now, of course we use gas for water heating. No question about it, gas is cheaper, for just pure heat. It, you can make, I mean BTUs per dollar are cheaper with gas than with electricity. No question about it. �9 Interviewer: How did those gas lights in the home work? Mr. Davis: Well, you see „em around the streets now. They, they‟re putting „em out here, they‟re mantel lamps. Once of course they had the old fishtail lamps at one time. You go down to this gas light village down here and you can see a lot of „em. Fish tail lights were just jet on the end of a fixture you might say, a fixture arranged to be artistic and things of that kind, glass globes and all kinds of thing on „em. But the gas lights made a mild amount of [?]. They were better than kerosene lamps, let‟s put it that way. We had some kerosene lamps in our house; I can remember early days the kitchen had a kerosene lamp out there. Why, I don‟t know but it had, they never put the gas out there. They had a gas stove for cooking and it also had a, well I guess you‟d call it, coal range. You could cook on that and heat the oven and do that sort of stuff with a coal range in the winter. Interviewer: They burn coal? Mr. Davis: Burn Coal, small [?] of coal. Interviewer: I was talking to a fellow this morning who was involved in the fuel business in Grand Rapids and he was saying that most of the homes at that time were, in fact all the homes heated with coal. What was the air like in the city then? Mr. Davis: The air? Oh you would never know it. It‟s just as good as it is now. Probably better. We, this furor over pollution, I‟m all in favor of reducing pollution but let‟s go at it on the basis of knowing what we‟re talking about. There‟s a lot more smoke and stuff coming out of big places, which they don‟t fuss about, than there was probably was in all the the coal smoking days, I mean coal burning days of the city. Now it‟s not as bad here because they usually burn hard coal. That‟s more or less smokeless. If you lived in Pittsburg a while, you‟d know what it is to burn soft coal domestically. It‟s rather amusing down there, at least when I was first there. The coal is so plentiful it‟s practically in every farmer‟s backyard. And I boarded, that was before I was married, I boarded in a place in the, heard the man of the house say one time, along about this time of the year. Well, we‟d better call up the farmer and have him bring in some coal. Well I thought that was kind of funny and I asked him about it and he said oh yes he had a side hill out here and he brings in coal. I don‟t, it wasn‟t very good coal, I know that and they, you bring it in and dump it [in on] the sidewalk or I mean in the curb and then he‟d hire somebody to shovel it up and put it in the cellar for him. Interviewer: [When] hmm Mr. Davis: And, but it was, oh I mean they got along, but it was rather interesting though. I used to travel quite a bit between Pittsburg and New York City and they‟d come in from New York City on this train at night, I mean the sleeper car and get there in the morning, and as you‟d come into the city from the east, as you came into the town there‟d be a kind of a haze over the whole city; because practically every house was, letting out a little cloud of smoke. Not, I wouldn‟t call it smoke, but a kind of a haze. �10 And you could definitely notice it. Very definitely as you came into town, clear outside in the country, and as you came into the city, an awful smoke. Of course Pittsburg has a horrible problem, or did in those days. They‟ve cleaned up a lot now. The mills made a lot of smoke. Coal mills, I mean a, steel mills, all those things. They used to make an awful mess around there. You got so you, well you‟re just accustomed to it. Well when I got married and went down there and lived there awhile with my wife, well you couldn‟t [just] go out in the evening. You‟d put on a fresh shirt, because the one you‟d been wearing during the day time was sooty. [went up] ? ? ? wife says oh you have to clean tonight. And things like that. I mean it showed up. Interviewer: But Grand Rapids never had that…? Mr. Davis: Never, never that bad, no. It wasn‟t, oh I don‟t know, the biggest problem I had from it, of course that was after I got back here, the Central High School, was really quite a boiler plant down there, used to burn coal. And they were very careless about it and they used to make a lot of smoke. I worked with Boelens who was then smoke inspector, and took pictures of the place and I don‟t know as that had any results, well anyway, not too many years ago they changed over to gas. That‟s good, as far as the neighborhood was concerned because they‟re not so dirty. Used to be that, under the eaves of a house, where the rain didn‟t come down and wash it off, why it‟d always be dark there, I mean dirty. Because the smoke had drifted in and deposited the soot and that was that. Now they don‟t have to paint quite so often, as we used to. On the other hand though, the gas is a big problem. Most people don‟t realize that, on the, for instance we live in a very old house as you can appreciate, not very old, about a hundred years old but anyway it was built before the time of chimney specifications which required a ceramic liner. Now then, if you burn coal, the coal gas was dry. Now you burn gas and the gas comes out with a lot of water vapor if you know how the exhaust of a car is in the winter, a plume of steam. Well, that‟s just the nature of the stuff. If you put that gas, I mean a burner big enough to heat your house, into an old house, with an unlined chimney like I have you can‟t get away with it because it‟ll, the moisture in the course of two or three years will go through the [?] Interviewer: Ok. Mr. Davis: And the, well I can‟t do it in my house because the chimney runs right up through the living room. We got bookcases around it and all that sort of stuff. It‟d take the plaster off the walls and I couldn‟t tolerate it so I‟m still burning coal but I got it all automatic, it‟s got a stoker, as you call it, though it may be a little smudge out of it once in a while, you can oh, at intervals between stoker firings you might call it that, why there‟d be a little haze come out of the stack but there‟s not dirty around there like it used to, I mean it would be if you‟re burning coal raw or with the high school burning coal, I‟d get over to gas if I could and I have a lot of good friends down in the gas company I‟d tell „em, will you fix me up [an] arrangement so I can burn gas without [ruining] my house. And they say, oh no, we can‟t guarantee that. I say you‟ll have to put up a bond if you want to do that. And oh no we wouldn‟t do that. So here I am running along with coal for the fire and I might say it‟s something of a chore because I‟ve gotten to the point �11 where the doctors now tell me I shouldn‟t shovel coal to any great extent, and I have to hire a fellow in the winter to put the coal in the hopper. Well that takes effort. It‟s not the best thing [?] I‟d switch over to gas anytime. It‟d probably cost a little more but then I wouldn‟t have to pay a guy a, oh eight - ten dollars a week to come in and keep the coal hopper full. Particularly when we go out of town, why it‟s something that has to be taken care of, you can‟t just go along and forget it. But even at that I wouldn‟t recommend any-body with a gas heating plant to go along and I hear a, people going oh I just went south and I left it running. As an engineer I wouldn‟t let that thing run without attention at least once or twice a day on any account. Something could fail. Then what would happen? I wouldn‟t take long for in zero weather for the house to freeze. Then it‟d be several hundred dollars of plumbing repair. Interviewer: Um hm. Mr. Davis: For example in my house, too. When we go out of town, even though we have a fellow looking after it I have a light in the window, under the control of an auxiliary thermostat which is set at about fifty degrees. If the temperature ever got down to fifty degrees, that light would light, then the neighbors are supposed to gallop in and find out what‟s wrong. Well, why not? Interviewer: That‟s a good idea. Well, they say most of the air pollution today is caused by the automobile. Do you remember the first car that you ever saw? Mr. Davis: Oh yes. Interviewer: What kind of car was it and who had it? What was the effect on the city when the cars started coming in? Mr. Davis: [?] it was always a novelty to see this damn thing chugging down the street. There was a one cylinder Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles one cylinder running along underneath. You cranked it on the side by putting the crank on auxiliary. You had a chain drive running from the engine shaft to the rear axel, and you‟d get in there and you‟d steer it with a tiller. They used to have the cold, curved dash, Oldsmobile had a curve on the bottom of it, sleigh you might say. Oh they‟d run around. Sure they had, interesting, they gradually got more and more and they got the cars so you didn‟t have to…, there used to be the joke, every now and then they get stuck and somebody‟d go by and yell at „em, “Hire a horse.” Oh but that lasted, the first cars I remember were oh probably nineteen two and three and four, somewhere along in there. Some of „em were steam cars. I had a great respect for steam cars. The old White Steamer, was a steam car. It had a boiler under the seat. The engine in the first ones was right alongside the boiler, it drove with a chain drive. Then the better White Steamers, I mean newer ones came out with the engine under the hood, the boiler was still under the seat. But they were quite a car. They would outrun most anything that you could imagine these days. I know I had a test ride in one one time. A fellow came in the factory, a neighbor of ours had one and went out and drove down the Cascade road. That was about the only passable road out of here. And they used to have a lot of pumps along the dash, if you‟d pump awhile and do �12 different things with „em and the fellow was in there and he was steering with one and he was looking at the road and pumping these things and she was running sixty and he says, “She ain‟t steamin‟ quite like she ought to.” Well, I thought it was just as well she isn‟t steaming [?]the thought of goin‟ much faster over that rough road and him steering one hand and twiddling his pumps and looking at his gage and just sprinting down the highway. Interviewer: What year was that? Mr. Davis: Oh, that was probably in nineteen hundred and three or four. Interviewer: That was a pretty fast car, wasn‟t it? Mr. Davis: Yeah, the White Steamer was a very good steamer. They could run anywhere. Interviewer: Did you ever have any accidents with the boiler blowing up? Mr. Davis: Oh no. I don‟t think so, I never heard of any. The worst thing about the steamers, and is still the reason that prevents them from being common these days is thefact that it takes a few minutes to get on steam. If you leave it sitting in your garage and you want to start the next morning, you‟ve got to allow, oh I don‟t know what it might be, ten, fifteen minutes to raise enough steam to run out of the barn. Interviewer: Um hm. What kind of an effect on the city did those early cars have? Mr. Davis: Oh, there were, there was just a joke, annoyance for the most part. The steam cars, they weren‟t bad, some of „em did exhaust direct into the air but that was steam that came out then. And, oh they‟d go along down the street leaving a fizzling kind of a steam out behind, was kind of a joke. I know one time, even quite more recent than that we drove east down to Massachusetts, the family places. And we used, I think it was an Oakland then, it was a good gas car. Then it had a maximum speed of about 40 miles an hour, and we drove down and came back, and on those good roads in Massachusetts, I came up behind a steamer, a Stanley Steamer, that was different type, but it was a good car, very good. But they couldn‟t maintain their speed; the boiler wasn‟t quite big enough to keep „em running as fast as they‟d like to run. I mean they might try to run. And I‟d come up behind „em then he‟d really open up and run away from me leaving this big cloud of steam out behind. And then he‟d re-use up about all his steam and perhaps my speed a run thirty-five forty miles and hour and oh, two [or] three miles, I‟d catch up with him again. Then he‟d do the same thing again. Just run away from me like nothing. That steam engine, well that boiler with that steam bottled up in there could run way from practically anything that was going on in those days. Some of the world‟s records for steam were made by the Stanley Steamer; I think a hundred and twenty some miles an hour down on the, well the Florida beaches. Interviewer: Daytona? �13 Mr. Davis: Down there somewhere. Well there, they did the high speed work. It‟s too bad the Stanley went out of business. There‟s quite a story on that. If you go to the library you‟d probably get a book down there called the Story of the Stanley Steamer. I think you‟d enjoy reading it. It‟s really worth while. And well I used to enjoy the Stanley Steamer; I‟d like to see that again. I hear oh that Bill Lear is planning one. I hope he gets it going. I‟m kind of afraid he may not because, well for what I know of Bill Lear, he‟s a kind of, oh a, visionist guy. He can imagine doing this, and he can imagine doing that and that was about it. I knew him, I mean I knew of him because that when I was at Westinghouse, he was in competition with us trying to furnish government equipment. And he didn‟t have enough background and enough sense or enough anything so when it come to making competitive bids, he couldn‟t make „em equal to what we did. But on the other hand he would under bid us „cause he‟d just say we‟ll make it for so much. I don‟t know what he did. I don‟t think he ever made anything, get very many contracts. Sometimes I know we would lose a contract but of course when you bid on government stuff you got to turn in all your specifications. Then of course, they‟re common property. He probably then could pick up these specifications I mean the things we had and build around our specs and do it for a lower price, and we did, but you notice he‟s not in business doing too much of that. I mean he didn‟t stay in it. Then he came here to Grand Rapids and, oh then I think he got other people in conjunction with him who kind of gave some ballast to hold him in control although he used his good ideas and they worked that way. I don‟t know. It used to amuse me and when I was here first there were a number of people I knew moved down there at Lear‟s and, yet every practically every year they‟d change. They couldn‟t stand it apparently, to stay with him. I know one time was a joke told about he had a conference in his organization somewhere, at least this was the story I heard, that he said, that we ought to do something this way; it was rather fantastic and the engineers didn‟t think about much of it. And a couple of days later, he went out into a development lab and he asked one of the fellows, “How‟d you come along with what I was outlining the other day” And the fellow apparently wasn‟t too diplomatic, he says, “You didn‟t expect I was gonna do that fool thing, did you?” He got fired right away. But Bill Lear was accust…, might do things which would be fantastic, which an engineer wouldn‟t do, but he ought to be diplomatic enough to say, “Well look, we‟re thinking about it still.” Or stuff like that He wouldn‟t go and tell the boss, look I wouldn‟t try that fool thing. Interviewer: Yeah, what was your family a prominent family in this city? Mr. Davis: Oh, I don‟t know, you might call „em that. That is Stowe-Davis, and my father being on the Board of Education for some thirty-five years. He went on the board when, oh I was about the fourth grade in school, or fifth grade, somewhere along in there. And I couldn‟t do a thing out of line which any youngster would do. He had a pipeline virtually from the teachers right into him. And he knew about it when I got home that night. He knew about it and I was in for trouble then. So it was a heck of a job, about bad as being a minister‟s son, living with a situation like that. „Course he was on there until, oh, well he died in thirty-five and I think technically he was still on the board when he died. He didn‟t do much the last six months. But anyway he was on the board and all �14 that time, when I graduated from High School And then I went on to College and stuff like that, and of course he didn‟t have to do about the college end of things but in the high school he, well, still had his say. The only time he ever did anything for me, you might call it, was, I was no good in languages. It was, my mother said I had to take some German. We had a German down here who really was German, at least she acted so much like it. And when we‟re taking the courses in German she insisted to learn the rules for German grammar in German. Well just imagine that. I didn‟t know anything about German, how was I going to learn the rules? Well I, I got, passed it off as next to nothing then I got flunked in the course. Well apparently that stirred up my mother enough, so she talked to my father and said look, you better do something about this. Well, the next thing I knew, he had it arranged that I would not continue with German course in high school here. But I would get a tutor. A tutor was, well a professional tutor who‟d had, was recognized, they had some around town, for various subjects, by the public schools and I finished the course by tutoring with her. I got my credit for that year of German, unofficially, but it counted. So when I went to the university I got by with it Interviewer: You mentioned the Bundy family lived in your neighborhood. Mr. Davis: Yeah, the Bundys lived right across the street. Bundy was, I can‟t say positively, but Mrs. Bundy was a son of, well Hollister, I‟ve forgotten his first name. He had a son, Clay Hollister, you may hear about. And then of course he had several sons younger than that. I‟m not so sure but one of „em is you about him there is a Bundy down there in Washington doing something. That might be some of the family, I don‟t know, „cause they‟ve all pulled out of here. But I can‟t quite imagine that crowd going over to the Democratic [?] Interviewer: What, what kind of business was Bundy involved in here in Grand Rapids, do you remember? Mr. Davis: I think he was an attorney. Interviewer: Well, the thing I was going to ask you about your family, if they were prominent, did they a, socialize with those families that lived in the Hill District there? Mr. Davis: Oh, I don‟t know, I didn‟t pay much attention to what they was going on. I don‟t think they had too much contact with „em. I know they used to talk about the Hollisters and the Bundys. My mother used to know Mrs. Hollister, and she used to talk about Clay Hollister And he was known, see he went to the bank with his father, was quite an official in the Old Kent Bank, not the Old Kent but the Old National. And well they were well, they know their way around [?] My mother was quite, well both my father and mother were active in Park Church. My father was a deacon down there for a number of years, which added troubles to me, and my mother was very active among the ladies societies. Oh boy you want to live in those days. You went to church on Sunday morning and before you knew it you had to go to church in the Sunday evening. Want it? No. I didn‟t want it. You went to church. �15 Interviewer: What kind of organizations was your mother involved in? Mr. Davis: Well, a lot of missionary work, she also worked with the LLC, that‟s the Ladies Literary Club down there on what is it, Sheldon or something like that? Interviewer: LaGrave I think. Mr. Davis: Yeah, it‟s down there still. And my aunt was also, lived with us part of the time. She was active in the, I wouldn‟t say active, but I mean took part in the thing. And oh things of, they were doing their share in a mild way, around town. I don‟t mean to say they were very prominent, like being wives of senators or something like that, but they did their stuff around town. They were known. Interviewer: What was living up at, what was living in that neighborhood like as a kid? Mr. Davis: It wasn‟t so crowded as it is now, and you could do lots of things. Of course our big lot, that‟s the thing that amuses me, now you can‟t get youngsters to mow grass. My father says look, you mow that grass, and you mowed that grass. You raked it and did all this kind of stuff. There‟s a lot of things that youngsters don‟t do these days. My very youngest days, the family had a horse. They had, before I was born, had a horse that they kept in what we call a barn now. But then they decided it was too much of a job to keep the horse up there and so they kept the horse at a Livery stable downtown. And when you wanted the horse, you‟d phone down - the phones had been established by then - oh, you‟d call up whose livery stable it was, they had changed around at different times. The one fact [?] place called Albee‟s, Albee‟s Livery Stable, and we used to keep the horse down there and they would bring the horse up and a fellow bringing the horse up would hitch his bike on the back of the buggy and would ride the bike back downtown and after I got to be a little older, perhaps, a middle high school age when we got through with the horse that afternoon or evening you‟d drive, I‟d drive the horse downtown. Then it was up to me to my own shift to get back up the hill. Albee‟s Livery Stable was on Crescent, oh I should say it was about where the Regent Theatre used to be. Do you remember the Regent Theatre? Interviewer: Um hum. Mr. Davis: That was in, about in there. Typical horse barn and stable. They had probably thirty [or] forty horses in there. Well taken care of. Interviewer: Did you spend much time downtown when you were a, young? Mr. Davis: Gee whiz. I was busy doing things around the house and oh playing with other kids around there, and things of that kind. Interviewer: Did you do a lot of tinkering when you were a kid? �16 Mr. Davis: Oh yes, I always tried to do that. See, that‟s one thing that gave me a good start on most youngsters that didn‟t have the advantage. My father was Stowe-Davis Furniture Company, of course that was when plants ran on the steam engine, Every Saturday afternoon, cause they ran Saturdays, except right straight through to five o‟clock Saturdays, not only five days a week, I‟d go down to the engine room, hang around the engine room down there and just hanging around with the engineer, I‟d get accustomed to doing things. Starting at first, well probably just sweeping up a little bit, then doing more things. I know one of the first things that amused me was at night, when they‟d quit, you‟d blow the whistle. And I wasn‟t big enough then to reach up by the whistle cord so I‟d take the stool over and stand that on that by the wall when the whistle cords came down and he‟d signal to me and I‟d pull the cord and blow the whistle. You don‟t hear whistles these days. I don‟t know as there‟s hardly one in town. But it used to be quite a thing, At five o‟clock or six o‟clock, the whistles would blow here in Grand Rapids from various power plants. Now they got practically no plants that got a whistle. That was quite an interesting thing and then New Year‟s Eve or New Year‟s Night you might call it, there‟d be quite a, I wouldn‟t say a ceremony, but nearly every plant that had a whistle would blow it at midnight. No, I enjoyed my work at the factory. I don‟t call it work; I just hung around over there. Oh but I did have to do work one time. He got, I don‟t know if you‟ve ever been in a furniture factory much, you know they have planers, with plane oh surface boards, like this, big wide ones long, tops of tables and oh things like that and oh, I probably was fourteen maybe. He says, “You‟d better go to work” and so he says. One of the jobs in the factory that I got was tending the planer. That is the fellow runs the planer, he puts the boards in the front there and runs through the planer then they come out the back side and you had to pick these things up. I mean they, they just come through, they don‟t let „em fall on the floor, that‟s part of the job. And put „em on a hand truck where they can be carried away and do something else with them. And a, so he says, “You‟re gonna work over there this summer.” And the superintendent put me to tend the planer. The amusing part about it was, I mean that showing how things have changed, they had a regular kid who did it. I don‟t know what they did with him when I was, when they gave me a job of doing it, during the summer, but anyway, he was around there. Once or twice they had him, when they had some very heavy tops in there, they had him help me pile these big heavy tops on a truck to get them away. Now when I say truck, I mean one of these trucks, you know, industrial, not a power driven truck. But the thing I think is humorous about it was that he says, “Well we‟ll pay you eight cents an hour.” He says, “I can‟t pay you as much as the regular guy. That wouldn‟t be right for the boss‟s son to have a salary equal to a regular guy. He was getting I think twelve cents an hour. But we‟ll give you eight cents an hour.” So I worked all that summer for eight cents an hour. Interviewer: Was that, was eight, what, the guy that was working for twelve cents an hour, he was working at what, a ten hour day? Mr. Davis: I suppose so. Interviewer: Was that, I mean could you live fairly well on that? �17 Mr. Davis: Well he was just a kid in high school, just I mean in school, like I was He wasn‟t living, I mean his family probably took care of him. I mean wasn‟t, oh the regular rates weren‟t very high, no I should say not. Well, I can remember my father used to talk about some of the higher paid men over there make sixty cents an hour. That was good pay for those days. Sixty cents an hour. We used to say a penny a minute. The kids, the rest of „em got, oh probably after they got along, thirty-five, forty cents an hour. It wasn‟t very much, but they used to live, and be quite happy I would say. Well I got eight cents an hour. Interviewer: Where did the furniture factories get their workers? Mr. Davis: Oh just all around town. Interviewer: Was, as I understand a lot of Dutch … Mr. Davis: Yeah, that‟s right. Oh yeah, most of the factory men were Dutch. Interviewer: Do you know the reason why so many Dutch people migrated to Grand Rapids? Mr. Davis: No, I don‟t know Interviewer: Why they chose this town? Mr. Davis: I often wondered. They just came in here. Well why‟d the Poles come in here? They, came in here too. I don‟t know. They just migrated West and some of „em stopped here. Interviewer: Where did your family come from, Massachusetts, did you say? Mr. Davis: No, Vermont. But even a generation or two before them they came out of Massachusetts and so on. Interviewer: Why did your father come to Grand Rapids? Mr. Davis: Well, I don‟t know exactly. One story I heard was that my mother didn‟t like living in Massachusetts. It was, they were then living down near Boston, it‟s kind of a sea-coast atmosphere. And she said the, at least the story I heard was that she told me the general sea coast attitude and moisture and all that kind of stuff was tough on her throat. She didn‟t like it. And so next, what she told me was she says they decided they‟d go West and, oh one story I heard was that they thought of once about Omaha. But she did have a brother who‟d already got into business in Detroit. There was no automobile business then. That was just business. And he I think encouraged them to come to Grand Ra.., come to Michigan and, oh Michigan was only probably, I mean Grand Rapids was only about seventy thousand or something like that. And they took over, I mean they bought in then. They boarded downtown here, I used to joke about, it was quite a fancy �18 boarding house you might call it that. It‟s where the police station used to be. Do you remember where the police station used to be on the, Ottawa Street down here on the corner of Ottawa and Crescent? Alright, about a house or two up from there, of course the police station wasn‟t there then, was where this boarding was. And they lived there a year or so while he was looking around the town and getting started at Stowe-Davis and stuff of that kind. I used to tell her, yeah, they kept you right close to the police station, didn‟t they? And well she used to get kind of aggravated about that but anyway, it was downtown then, is still, I think it was quite a place. Well, you can see kind of a remnants of it, you know what is it Bostwick Street, the one that goes up from oh, past the front of the Butterworth hospital? You know on Bostwick Street between Crescent and Lyon, there‟re a couple of old brick buildings in there. They used to be more of those downtown. They were boarding houses, I mean you could live in that. Well it was quite a thing. People in Boston lived in, I wouldn‟t say boarding houses, I mean they lived in, houses which were built right along in rows. Not from what you call those row houses these days, but I mean, there‟d be individual units in a series of perhaps four or five houses, usually built of brick, anyway pretty well put together. And you could live in there and you didn‟t have the responsibility of a lot of stuff. It was good living I guess, for those days. I don‟t think I‟d like it now but I mean that‟s what people did. Interviewer: Was there very much crime in the city, when you were growing up? Mr. Davis: Oh, I don‟t know about that. I never had any experience with it. I guess about the way crimes were was on Halloween night us young fellows used to go out and do out stuff of dumping garbage cans over and a few things of that kind but I don‟t suppose you‟d call that crime. No, Grand Rapids I was satisfied? was a model city, if you might call it that. But I suppose there must have been the usual stuff going on. But then it was I would say a safe city. Nowadays you won‟t dare go out on certain streets after dark. Then you could walk or drive anywhere. I wouldn‟t trust… I mean the city isn‟t nearly as good as it used to be in those days. I don‟t know what they‟re gonna do with the city now. It isn‟t safe. Well… INDEX A C Albee’s Livery Stable · 16 Central High School · 10 B D Barnard, Alice · 1 Bell Telephone Company · 5 Boelens, Inspector · 10 Bundy family · 1, 15 Butterworth hospital · 7, 19 Davis Technical (school) · 3 Davis, George A. · 1 E Engineers’ Club · 6 �19 H P Hollister family · 1, 15 Hollister, Clay · 15 Hunting family · 2 Hunting, David · 2 Hunting, Edgar · 2 Pantlind Hotel · 1, 2 Park Congregational Church · 15 Pike, Charles W. · 1 R K Regent Theatre · 16 Kent County Savings Bank · 1 S L Ladies Literary Club · 15 Lake Michigan water · 7 Lamoreaux family · 1 Lear, Bill · 13, 14 Lyon Street Hill Line (streetcar) · 4 Stanley Steamer · 13 Steelcase Company · 2 Stowe family · 2 Stowe, L. C. · 2 Stowe-Davis Furniture Company · 2, 14, 16, 19 T M Taggart, Ganson · 2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology · 3 McKay, Frank · 6 U O Old Kent Bank · 1, 2, 15 Old National Bank · 1, 15 University of Michigan · 3 W White Steamer · 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/132e520c7707c8a5c9a353930e1007cb.mp3 b53a818c8a514af2a475310f9e427223 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_25-26Davis Title A name given to the resource Davis, Robert Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Davis, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Davis worked as an engineer for Westinghouse and was a professor of engineering. Mr. Davis had degrees from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and the University of Michigan. He was active in the public schools and was a local historian. He died December 21, 1979. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/36e1106395c5d5c93de33d39275282ba.pdf 84bb7dc1bf45614d6e1ea8e116f0803d PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. Donald G. Denison. Interviewed on May 15, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 50 (51:21) Biographical Information Donald G. Denison was born 22 April 1891 in Grand Rapids and died 21 Aug 1983. He was the son of Arthur C. Denison and Susan L. Goodrich. He married Adeline Smith in 1917. Arthur Carter Denison, son of Julius Coe Denison and Cornelia Carter was born 11 November 1861 in Paris Township, Kent County. He died 24 May 1942 in Cleveland, Ohio and was buried in the Oak Hill Cemetery in Grand Rapids. Susan L. Goodrich, daughter of Hiram and Cornelia Goodrich, was born on 17 June 1864 in Grand Rapids and died on 5 May 1896 at the age of 31 and was buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. Arthur and Susan were married 7 September 1886 in Grand Rapids. On 24 May 1898 Arthur married as his second wife, Julia B. Barlow, the daughter of Heman G. and J. Ruth (Hall) Barlow. Julia was born in November 1875 in Grand Rapids. She passed away on 6 July 1956 in Grand Rapids and was buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. ___________ Interviewer: This is the interview being conducted at the residence of Mr. Donald Denison, 31 South Prospect, on May fifteenth, nineteen seventy-five. I thought we’d start the interview by talking about the death of Mr. Denison’s grandfather which occurred on June twenty-fifth, eighteen seventy-seven. I’ll let you take it on from there, Mr. Denison. Donald: Alright, I’ll begin on how he got there. He came out here, I think in the early fifties, perhaps, and he bought two farms…one to the north of Grand Rapids and one to the south of Grand Rapids. And he farmed both of these places for several years. Somewhere along the way he…. he came into knowledge of this house at the corner of Ransom and Lyon. Interviewer: At the northwest corner, right? Donald: Yes. Interviewer: Which had been left high and dry in the air, by the cutting down of Ransom Street and Lyon Street, and I suppose he bought it for a comparative bargain because of that reason. Interviewer: Do you know who built the house? �2 Donald: No, but, somewhere around here is a clipping that tells all about it, I can perhaps find it before we get through. Interviewer: Yes, and your…I think you mentioned that your father had helped build a retaining wall there. Donald: Grandfather bought the place at a bargain I assume and built the retaining wall of the stone from the Grand River. Interviewer: OK. Donald: And my father, remembered vaguely, thinking he was helping his father with the stonework. He was probably a small boy of four or five… Interviewer: Yes. Donald: or so. Interviewer: Your father was born in eighteen sixty-one. Donald: Born in sixty-one, so this would’ve been in, in… Interviewer: Well, in the middle… Donald: Either that or in the late sixties sometime, yes. Interviewer: Well, I remember the house quite well because it was, well, it was sort of quaint, noted house... Donald: Yes. Interviewer: …and was built of Grand River Limestone, I believe. How long did your family live on in that house? Donald: They lived here only until he died, wait a minute, longer than that. He died in seventyseven. Interviewer: Right. Donald: And, they lived there at least, they possessed the house until I would think the early eighties. Interviewer: Ok. Donald: I know, there’s some diaries of my father’s who can make some kind a sale? And at that time, I think he was in Ann Arbor, as a law student. �3 Interviewer: Yes. Donald: So they had it for some years. Interviewer: Let me shut it off for a second…About or what year did your father-grandfather come to Grand Rapids? Donald: In the early fifties Interviewer: In the early fifties? Where was he born? Donald: He was born at, are we on the air now?’ Interviewer: Yes, he was born in.... Donald: Born in Durham, New York. Interviewer: Durham, New York. Donald: Which was in the Catskills. Interviewer: I see. Donald: And that family, his father’s name was John. That family came from Durham, New York to…. Interviewer: To Durham? Donald: To Eastern New York. Interviewer: Oh, I see. Donald: And settled… Interviewer: Well… Donald: I, trying to think… Interviewer: Well, was it an old colonial family? Donald: They came from…Yes; they came a generation or two before that from Connecticut. The first Denison was discovered in Connecticut in sixteen forty. Interviewer: Did he arrive there about that time? Donald: He was discovered there but…. Interviewer: I see. �4 Donald: How he got there or when, nobody knows. Interviewer: Your grandfather’s name was Julius, right? Donald: My grandfather’s name was Julius. Interviewer: He didn’t live for a great many years; I think he died when he was about fifty-four. Maybe you can describe the account of his death? Donald: Yes, there was a dispute to which he ended up-ended up before the alderman or the board of supervisors, whoever was in control of the city and county of that time, as to allowing or not allowing cattle to graze in the streets, besides the streets. Now whether that grandfather’s interest was pro or con, I don’t know. Interviewer: I think it was pro; at least it seemed that he wanted cows to be allowed in there. Donald: Should or should not cows be allowed? Interviewer: Yes. Donald: And he appeared before the council, to speak on the subject. But whether he was pro or con, I never knew. Interviewer: Well, I think the clipping is that I saw yesterday indicates that he was pro. Donald: Alright, at any rate, in the middle of his little speech or talk that he was making, I think he was standing before the council, he fell to the ground and promptly died. And whether he’d had any previous troubles or, with heart or otherwise I don’t know but I don’t think so, I never heard of any. Interviewer: Was he active in farming? Donald: Oh, yes. Interviewer: But he lived downtown? Donald: By this time, he lived in this house on the corner, what we’re talking about, and farmed the two farms by horse and buggy. Interviewer: Yes, I see but he actually lived right in the house in the heart of the city. Donald: Operated these two farms. Interviewer: One on the north end of town. Donald: One was across…I have a hard trouble remembering the names. �5 Interviewer: Well, some of the street names have changed, but I think it was almost up to the Kent Country Club, right around there. Donald: Right across Knapp Street from the present Kent Country Club was one farm. The other was out Paris, which is now grown up and city. Interviewer: Yes. And who was your grandmother? Donald: Grandmother was Cornelia Carter. Interviewer: Where did she come from? Donald: Who also came from rural western New York. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: They were married before they came out here. Interviewer: Did she outlive your grandfather for some years? Donald: Yes, indeed, she lived until nineteen seventeen. Interviewer: I have a note here, right. You must have pretty vivid memories of her? Donald: Of course, I was married by that time, and she lived long enough to know Adeline, my wife. We were married in nineteen seventeen. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: She was eighty-seven, I think. Interviewer: So, she lived a long time after her husband died. I believe your family moved at some point to a house also on Lyon Street, it was three twenty-nine; I drove by the house yesterday. It is still there, it has been covered unfortunately with aluminum siding, but you must remember that house. Were you born in that house? Donald: I was born in that house, and lived there until I went to college. Interviewer: Where did you go to college? Donald: University of Michigan. Interviewer: Right. Donald: I graduated in nineteen thirteen. �6 Interviewer: Your father [Arthur C.] was of course, a noted jurist and also went to University of Michigan, I believe and took his law degree there. And then came back to practice in Grand Rapids. Who were some of his earliest law partners and associates? Donald: He was a junior partner, protégée’ of Edward Taggert. Edward Taggert was the uncle of Johnson Taggert who was for many years the city attorney here. Interviewer: Who was Moses Taggert? Donald: Moses Taggert was Edward Taggert’s brother. Interviewer: I see... Donald: And … Interviewer: He practiced law though with other men and I believe two great uncles of mine, Hugh and Charles Wilson. Donald: Alright, the firm original was just plain Taggert with father as a helper then, when he came in it was Taggert and Denison, then your great uncle Charles joined them and for many years and in my youth, it was Taggert, Denison and Wilson. Interviewer: Yes, where did they have their offices? Donald: They had their offices in the Michigan Trust building, where I could get a haircut for a quarter, and tell the haircut operator that my father would pay it when he came along the next day. Interviewer: I see. I took the liberty of bringing some notes with me, but your father received an appointment as federal judge directly from President Taft, is that correct? Donald: Yes, he was appointed as successor to Judge Wanty, in nineteen nine, perhaps and before very long, a matter of only few short years he was appointed to the Cincinnati Court, where he continued until his seventieth birthday. Which was… Interviewer: Well, it was in nineteen thirty-one, yes. Donald: That sounds right. Interviewer: He was born on the tenth of November. And there was an interesting…. Donald: Now… Interviewer: Excuse me, go ahead. Donald: At that time he resigned from the court, which is quite different for retiring. A retiring judge as I understand it, is serving to call and still a member of the judiciary. �7 Interviewer: Yes. Donald: A resignee is through and free to go and practice law. Interviewer: Why did he resign? Donald: I presume to make some money. He would have never grown rich in the judicial business and he had a notion of resigning and coming back to Grand Rapids acting in an advisory capacity of someone here. He discussed the subject with Mr. Keeney. Interviewer: But that didn’t materialize. Donald: About that time Mr. Baker of Cleveland, the ex-Secretary of War…. Interviewer: Milton D. Baker. Donald: Milton D. Baker suggested to father that perhaps it would be a good idea for him to come down and join him as counsel, which appealed to him. And he did so; practiced law there for some ten years, which were very successful and happy years for him in association with Baker both socially and in the business. Interviewer: Did you know Mr. Baker yourself? Donald: I got to know him quite well and became a great admirer of him. Interviewer: He was quite an interesting personality, I believe, but I don’t know much about him. Donald: Well, I remember one thing about him. I was in his library in his house in Cleveland, and the library was lined to the ceiling with books and in the frieze around the top was a set of books in red leather and it made a complete frieze around the library. I asked him, “What are they?” And he said one thing you got for being Secretary of War; that was when you left they backed up a truck to your house and gave you the complete record of all the official documents of the Civil War. That was a tradition and there they were. That reminded me to ask him a question or two that puzzled me about Civil War times and he said well, let’s see. And he got a ladder, brought it out, climbed up on the ladder and looked at the books and got one down and studied it and answered my question. Interviewer: So you learned something? Donald: I learned something. Interviewer: And Mr. Baker died before your father did, as I recall, but your father stayed on in the firm. Donald: Father was here visiting when he got a telephone call, that Mr. Baker had died. It was a blow, of course. �8 Interviewer: About when did your family move into this house? Donald: nineteen sixteen. Interviewer: Yes. Who built this house? Donald: Mr. Sligh Interviewer: Mr. Charles Sligh? Donald: Mr. Charles Sligh built the house in eighteen ninety-one. Interviewer: I see. Did he live here until the time of the sale? Donald: He owned it until that time. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: The house was rented for a short time. I am trying to think of the name of the family. The girl in the family married Paul Hollister. Interviewer: Yes, I can’t tell you. Donald: They rented this house for a very short time. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: Otherwise it never had occupants except Slighs and Denisons. Interviewer: Now when your father went to Cleveland in nineteen thirty or thirty-one or thirtytwo, did you stay on in this house? Donald: We moved into this house. Interviewer: I see. Donald: It had stood vacant for a time; then we moved into it. Interviewer: And you are still here. Let’s see, let’s go back a minute, you were born in the house over on Lyon Street, three twenty-nine? Donald: And that’s right Interviewer: Do you remember much about that neighborhood? Donald: Well, I grew up there, so I remember a lot of course. The Idemas were our close neighbors; they directly across the street. Interviewer: Yes. And who were some of the other neighbors? �9 Donald: The Henry Idemas, also Fred Idemas. Fred Idema was Henry Idema’s brother and they lived right next to each other across the street. The Treadways lived next door to the Idemas and the Whitmans built a house right next to us and sold it quite shortly to Frank Dykema. Interviewer: Was he the druggist? Donald: Dykemas, no (Pat was?) Interviewer: Did the Barlows live nearby? Donald: Barlows lived next door. They were my step-grandparents. We boys, there were three of us and we really had two homes. It was humorously said that we would go into the two kitchens to see which house was serving up the dinner that we liked we would settle down in that house. Interviewer: How old were you when your mother died? Donald: Five years old. I remember her, vaguely remember a few fleeting pictures of her. Interviewer: Your father remarried and married Julie Barlow. Donald: And they were our next door neighbors, Julia Barlow, that’s right. Interviewer: So you have pretty vivid memories of the Barlow family. Who are the Barlows; I mean who were Mr. and Mrs. Barlow? Donald: Heman Barlow was in the wholesale grocery business with Mr. Judson in what later turned out to be the Judson Grocery Company. The Barlows were originally New England family that turned into U.E. Loyalists and went to Canada and then re-immigrated here in 1860, I think. How they got to Grand Rapids from Canada I do not know, but they came here when Grandfather Barlow was ten years old Interviewer: He was born in eighteen fifty, at one point he was a bookbinder, I understand. Donald: It was his brother. Interviewer: His brother, I see. Donald: Yes, although it was known as Barlow Brothers. Series of bound volumes are still around here, falling apart most of them. Interviewer: Where did you go to school? Donald: I went to Fountain Street School to begin with, which was where Central High School is now. �10 Interviewer: I see. That’s why they call Fountain School, Fountain School, I suppose. They built Fountain School around the corner on College. Interviewer: Yes, it is still. Donald: They continue to call it Fountain Street School. Then by the time we got to sixth grade we went to Central Grammar School, which comprised of seventh and eighth grades, yes. Interviewer: Where was that located? Donald: That was on the same grounds as the High School. The High School fronted on Ransom. And the Central Grammar School which had been the earlier High School, I think, it fronted on either Lyon or it fronted on Bostwick. So there were two buildings on that little campus, as it were; the High School and the Central Grammar School. Earlier there had been the old Stone school on that same location that my father and mother had both gone to. Interviewer: And that was on Bostwick or on Ransom? Donald: I think it occupied the grounds between them. Interviewer: I see. Did you go to Central High School after Central Grammar School? Donald: Then I went to Grand Rapids High School. Interviewer: Where was that? Donald: That was right there, that was the building that was just torn down in the last year. Interviewer: Oh, yes. Donald: It was not called Central because it was the only high school except the one on the west side and that only went thru the eleventh grade. And in nineteen eleven the present Central High School was built and assumed that name of Central High School. It was a continuation of the old Grand Rapids High School, same faculty, same records. Interviewer: You graduated from old Grand Rapids High School? Donald: There was no such thing as Central High School then. Interviewer: What year did you graduate? Donald: Nineteen eight Interviewer: Nineteen eight and you went directly there to Michigan. Donald: No, I worked for a year in the furniture factory, in the Macey Furniture Factory, Macey Furniture Company, made sectional bookcases. �11 Interviewer: I remember that because I think my grandfather was the director of it or something. Donald: Might well have been. It was headed by Otto Warneke. Interviewer: Hmmm. Donald: And it was quite a prosperous concern. Interviewer: Where was it located? Donald: On South Division, the building is still there, pretty well out South Division. Interviewer: I wonder who is in the building now. Donald: I think it is a storage building for somebody. Interviewer: Steelcase or one… Donald: Not Steelcase, who is…? Interviewer: Your knowledge of South Division is as bad as mine. Donald: I used to get up and ride the streetcar down there and get there at seven o’clock. I remember that. And we worked ten hours a day plus an extra ten minutes. The extra ten minutes were a credit that applied on Saturday so we could get away at noon on Saturday. Interviewer: I see. Donald: And still have our sixty hours for the week. Pay was a dollar an hour. Interviewer: Was that pretty good pay? Donald: It was pretty good for me. Interviewer: Then you went to the University of Michigan from there. Donald: After a year of that, I decided I better get an education and then went to the University of Michigan. Interviewer: What was your class there? Donald: Class of nineteen thirteen. Interviewer: Nineteen thirteen and you were married in nineteen seventeen you said. Donald: Nineteen seventeen. Interviewer: Was Mrs. Denison, your first wife from Grand Rapids? �12 Donald: No indeed. She was from Hinsdale, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. Interviewer: I see. Donald: She had connections at White Lake where we had a summer cottage. Interviewer: What was her maiden name? Donald: Adeline Smith. Interviewer: Adeline Smith. Now let me just take a look at these notes I made. After college what did you do? Donald: I got a job at the Ford Motor Company of Canada, in Walkerville right across from Detroit and was there until practically, until the war. Interviewer: Perhaps, I should have asked what did you major in at Michigan. Donald: Literature, Science and the Arts, so called. Interviewer: Did that? Donald: They had no majors at that time, probably history. Interviewer: I see. Donald: I took a lot of history; there were no formal majors at that time. Interviewer: The first job you took after college graduation was not in any way related to what you studied at U of M? Donald: That’s right. Interviewer: And how long were you with Ford? Donald: Three years. Interviewer: Then you went into the service? Donald: Then I went into the service. Interviewer: Tell me about what you did, what rank you achieved and where you were and so forth. Donald: Well I went to first do is Training Camp at Fort Sheridan, received a commission as First Lieutenant. Interviewer: Then you went abroad? �13 Donald: I never went abroad, Fort Sill Oklahoma the Artillery School, stayed there two years, till the war was finished. Interviewer: Then you returned to Grand Rapids? Donald: In the meantime I was married. I was married just before going to Fort Sheridan. The work down there was training, and firing practice on the firing ranges. I there got a captains commission to the Ninth Artillery and we fired a lot of ammunition at no enemies. No, I didn’t come back to Grand Rapids I came back to Detroit and got a job there with the National City Company of New York, which was a (?) of the National City Bank of New York, selling bonds. And there in and out of Municipal Bonds business for quite a few years. Interviewer: Did you live in Detroit all those years? Donald: I lived in Grosse Isle, just outside of Detroit twelve, thirteen years. Our children were either born there or nearby, grew up there. Down the road from us a half- mile lived the Johnson family, and Mrs. Johnson is upstairs here now. Interviewer: So you met your second wife while you were living… Donald: Oh, yes we were old friends; families were friends and neighbors for a dozen years. Interviewer: And you were in and out of the bond business for a number of years? Donald: I was in it… Interviewer: How long did you stay in that business? Donald: I stayed in that until the Second World War. Interviewer: When did you return to Grand Rapids? Donald: I returned to Grand Rapids in nineteen thirty-three, at the time of the bank failure. Interviewer: Yes. Was that a pretty hard time for you? Donald: That was a rather difficult time, yes. Interviewer: As it was for a good many. Donald: The job had shortly vanished. I was with the Guardian Company in Detroit which was part of one of the banking groups that went down the precipice. [Union Guardian Trust Company of Detroit] Interviewer: Was that? Donald: So I had no job for some time and no money, yes it was a difficult time. �14 Interviewer: Was that Guardian Company in Detroit associated with the one in Cleveland? Donald: No. Interviewer: (?) Seems to me there was a group there… Donald: At that time, having no job, I organized a company of my own, consisting of mostly myself. And ventured into the municipal bond business for myself and was there for several years and got along not too badly Then we moved back here. Interviewer: Then you were in business downtown. Where were you located? Donald: The Michigan Trust Building. Interviewer: So your children received their education in Grand Rapids about that period? Donald: Yes, Interviewer: One of the things I know about you, because I have been there and known other people that have summered there, for a great many years you have been going to White Lake, north of Muskegon Donald: My father had a cottage there and we have been going…. Interviewer: How long have you been going? When did your father first go there? Donald: Went there in eighteen ninety-two. I was a year old when we went there. Interviewer: Is that the cottage you had until recent years? Donald: That is the cottage we had until recent years. Interviewer: Were there already other people that had gone up there from Grand Rapids? Donald: The Butterfields and the Taggerts Interviewer: Did they go up before your father? Donald: They both had gone up before that time, so. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: By the time, I went up there I remember three Grand Rapids lawyers living right in a row, Mr. Wilson became the fourth. Interviewer: Mr. Hugh Wilson? Donald: No, Mr. Charles Wilson. �15 Interviewer: Charles Wilson? Donald: So at that time then that made four Grand Rapids lawyers in a row. Interviewer: How did you spend your time up there at White Lake? Donald: Digging in the garden and sailing. Interviewer: And I think, you maintained your interest in sailing at least until recent years. Donald: Yes, until recently. Interviewer: Did the families commute back and forth, I mean did your father have to come back to Grand Rapids or did he go up there and spend long periods of time? How did it work out? Donald: All those lawyers commuted weekends. Interviewer: Did they drive? Donald: No, drive what? Interviewer: Not automobiles. Not in the early nineties. Donald: Didn’t drive automobiles. Interviewer: Took trains I suppose. Donald: The Butterfields had horses, and they use to transport their horses up there, or bring them up there. The fathers would commute weekends by train to Whitehall and then boat down the lake. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: And they would arrive either Friday night or Saturday night and leave very early Monday morning and get back here the middle of the morning some time. Interviewer: About what time of year would you open up your cottage up there? Donald: When school closed. Interviewer: I see. Donald: Which was late in June. Interviewer: And you must have known a lot of people up there over the years. �16 Donald: There was a boarding house nearby called Partridges and many, many Grand Rapids people use to go up there. Grand Rapids people that had cottages up there were, the Butterfields, the Taggerts, the Wilsons, ourselves, the McNabbs, the Forbes’. Interviewer: Quite a settlement. Donald: Oh, yes. Interviewer: and you don’t go to White Lake anymore, but you go nearby I understand. Donald: Well, we go there, if I had a good strong arm, I could throw a stone into each lake. Interviewer: There is a ridge between them. Donald: Yes, there is a ridge in between. Interviewer: I know that your family had some connection with the Congregational Church, at one point with Park Church. Is that a family tradition that your family was Congregationalists going way back, or…? Donald: Yes, the grandparents, Denisons, were early members of that church. My family were; the Barlows were very active in it. Interviewer: I will just shut this off for a moment. END of Side One Interviewer: We will start again on this side and this time we’re going to talk about a letter you received from a young man the other day and your reply. It involves football at the University of Michigan. Why don’t you read parts of the letter you like to? This is your reply, I take it. Donald: It is too long for this business, isn’t it? Interviewer: No, it’s not too long. You can read as much or as little as you wish. Why don’t you read, maybe you should start with his inquiry. You received this letter the other day you said. Donald: Received this letter from a young man in Ann Arbor. He said for the past two years I have been very interested in the history of football here at the U of M and someday I hope to write a book. I was wondering if you can recall about your football days here. I believe you were a reserve halfback in nineteen ten, eleven and twelve weighing one hundred and one and five feet eleven tall. What were your teammates such as Benny Bender, Colin Quinn, Stan Wells, (?) Conklin and others. Do any games or instance standout? What kind of coach was Yost? It might interest you to know that as of nineteen seventy-two the alumni association numbers over one hundred surviving members of your nineteen thirteen class. Interviewer: Now, this is your reply. �17 Donald: This is my reply: Dear Bob, Your letter was like a bombshell, imagine anyone knowing or caring about the activities of a third string football player of sixty years ago. I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. Well, you deserve a good answer and I will try to give you something. What kind of coach was Yost? He was a good one. He loved football and he taught us personally. He didn’t sit in his office, if he had one, and direct his assistants. In fact, he only had one or two and didn’t let them do much. And every practice scrimmage he was in the middle, correcting and exhorting. He could whack a slowpoke on the back with a full swing and it was no love pat. At this time, he was perhaps thirty-five years old, strong, lean and tough. To demonstrate the use of hands on defense, he would grab one by the shoulder and toss them aside like a leaf. He liked to demonstrate the way to catch the ball. He would put his left hand with palm inward in front of his chest and say in his slightly southern drawl this hand says it can’t bound on back, you know. And place his right hand palm up waist high and say this hand says it can’t fall thru, you know. He was a Civil War buff and loved to compare war and football tactics. As for General Lee holding the line, Jackson ran the end. He was ahead of his time about vitamins. When the squad came into the training table, each place was set with a large salad and you ate that before you got anything else. He didn’t like to lose anymore than Woody Hayes. In the last game nineteen five, after five years of straight wins, Chicago took it two to nothing. Five years later, Yost was still maintaining that the officials made a ghastly mistake and that it really was a touchback and not a safety. Another famous game before my time which was in Chicago was billed as a battle of ages between the two supermen, Heston of Michigan Eckersall of Chicago. Eckersall ran faster but Heston ran harder and Michigan twenty-two- Chicago twelve. At age thirteen, I went my parents by special train from Grand Rapids. My memory of the actual game is a little vague, but a song of the Michigan rooters perhaps ten-thousand strong so tickled me that I have never forgotten it. It ran “Eckersall, Eckersall, when you are running with the ball, you could take an awful fall, Ecky Ecky Break your necky, Eckersall.” Later in college I could sing that song, nobody else knew it. Another game I remember well was a practice one, between the varsity and the reserves better know as a scrubbish. I was backing up the line for the scrubbish and having great success in sifting thru and tackling the varsity backs before they got started. My teammates all patted me on the back and told me how good I was, and I thought so too, but Yost didn’t seem to notice. A few days later I was having a beer with my good friend Tom Vogel, who was a regular and very good varsity lineman and while discussing this incident, he asked me did Yost say anything to you? I said no. Tom said, didn’t you know that I was letting you through. I thought you could do with a little recognition. He fooled me but he didn’t fool Yost. Does that sound like anything?… Interviewer: Yes, it sounds interesting. Was this, was George Thompson at Michigan at that time? What was his class? Donald: Yes, nineteen twelve. �18 Interviewer: Only a year apart. Donald: Yes. Interviewer: Do you remember any of his football exploits? I guess he was considered one of Michigan’s greats in those days. Donald: I remember how hard he hit when you tried to tackle him. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: He was tough, didn’t try to tackle him many times. We used to play these semi games…. Interviewer: We lost a little bit of the other side of the tape. And I want to go back to the story of going to the Kent Country Club again. Just as if we hadn’t heard it before, will you try to repeat it for me? Donald: Alright. The other day I was asked how long I had been going to the Kent Country Club and I recalled an early incident. In high school time perhaps nineteen six a high school fraternity party was at Kent Country Club and I told my parents I had asked a girl. It was the first time I had taken a girl anywhere to go to this party and I would have to have a cab because that is what everyone else is having. It didn’t mean a taxicab like today, it meant a horse drawn vehicle. My parents weren’t enthused about that. They said when they went to the same club as they frequently did, they went by streetcar and they opinioned that I could go by streetcar. Julius Amberg, a classmate, came to the rescue. His father had horses, and Julius and his girl and I and my girl went in style in a closed carriage with a coachman driving. Interviewer: Ordinarily you took the streetcar. Donald: Ordinarily everyone took the streetcar. Interviewer: Where did you board the streetcar and what…? Donald: We boarded the streetcar on Lyon Street in front of our house, rode on it down to the foot of Lyon at Monroe, Canal then. Took the Plainfield line out to Carrier Street and there transferred to a little one-horse line that went from Carrier Street out the remaining few blocks Kent. Interviewer: Was that… Donald: That car shuttled back and forth. Interviewer: Was it an electrical line? Donald: No, it was. Sure it was trolley cars, overhead trolley. �19 Interviewer: Yes, that went right to Kent Country Club? Donald: It shuttled between Plainfield and Kent Country Club, Plainfield Avenue just beyond Leonard. Interviewer: And you are still going out to the Kent Country Club, but not by streetcar anymore. I take it you spend a little time there when you’re in Grand Rapids. Donald: I go most every day and hit some practice balls if nothing else. I’m still hoping to improve my swing. Interviewer: You may! Donald: I may! Interviewer: Is there some tournament coming up in the near future? I thought I heard your wife speak that you are getting ready for some big event. Donald: I have a friend in Detroit that is an excellent golfer and he would like to come over here and play in a … I’ve forgotten what they call it; visitor’s tournament of some kind. That’s not the actual…. Interviewer: I see. Donald: That’s not the actual… Interviewer: Sure, I know what you mean, but I don’t know the name either. I’m not a golfer …. Donald: I’m practicing up so I don’t disgrace him too badly. Interviewer: That’s good, now you have lived on in this neighborhood Lyon Street in this house a great deal of your life. I am interested in getting you thinking about the changes that have occurred and you mentioned that you thought there was quite a little continuity as far as this particular part of the city if concerned. Donald: As far as this block and street, all of the houses have stayed the same. Most of them have been divided into a varying number of apartments. Interviewer: Who lived on either side of you? Donald: My early recollection, names leave me…. Interviewer: That’s not too important now. Just name some other families that lived in this block…. Donald: Alright, the Sears family lived in this building, the two Sears brothers and one across the street in what was later the Stewart house. �20 Interviewer: Steketees must have lived…. Donald: Steketees lived on the corner. Interviewer: I seem to recall Charlie Campbell lived… Donald: Charlie Campbell lived in the Steketee house after it was made into the apartments much later. Interviewer: Didn’t they live in the little house? Donald: The Campbells lived in three houses around here, the old Steketee house, the little house, and in an apartment down the street. I think they lived in the Steketee house when Charlie died. Interviewer: I think that is true. Has the neighborhood changed a great deal, do you think? Donald: Well, it’s held surprisingly well, so I suppose it changes because it is all apartments. Donald: The houses are externally unchanged. Interviewer: Go back to that house on Lyon Street where you were born. About when was that house built? Donald: I can almost plot it probably there, because I think that it was new when my father and mother were married and moved in to it, and that was Eighty-six, that’s about when it was built. Mr. Henry Idema built it on the vacant lot across the street. He lived on the other side of the street for speculation or investment perhaps, and sold it to my father when it was new. Interviewer: Well, it is still standing. Donald: It is still standing and with the Idema house across the street, it is one of most respectable ones there. Interviewer: And you had two brothers you mentioned. Donald: A younger brother and an older brother. Interviewer: And who was the older brother? Donald: That was John, some four years older than I, went to Chicago and spent his life in a bank there. Younger brother Arthur disappeared from a ship at sea. Interviewer: Really. Donald: At about thirty years of age. �21 Interviewer: I hate to ask this question, but what year were you born? Donald: Eighteen ninety-one. Interviewer: I could have reconstructed that, I guess. Donald: You could figure that one out? Interviewer: You’re in your middle eighties at this point. Donald: Middle aged, let’s say. Interviewer: Middle-aged. Donald: That’s better. Very lucky physically, as well as I ever was. Interviewer: That’s great. I think this has been a delightful interview, I might say that for the benefit for whoever listens to this someday. I came completely unprepared and discovered I didn’t have the little adapter to go on the plug, so Mr. Denison had the bright idea of just driving up the street and picking one up, which we did and we finally got the thing going. I must say, I didn’t even know we had a little electrical store a few blocks away that would have such an item, so with that I’ll turn it off and you can get ready to go to the Kent Country Club if that’s where you are going next. INDEX A Amberg, Julius · 19 B Denison, Arthur Carter (Father) · 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, 16, 19, 21 Denison, Cornelia Carter (Grandmother) · 5 Denison, Julius Coe (Grandfather) · 1, 3, 4, 5, 11 Dykema Family · 9 F Baker, Milton D. · 7, 8 Barlow Family · 9, 10, 17 Butterfield Family · 15, 16 Ford Motor Company · 12 Fountain Street School · 10 C G Campbell Family · 21 Central Grammar School · 10 Congregational Church · 17 Grand Rapids High School · 11 D Idema Family · 9 Denison, Adeline Smith (1st Wife) · 1, 5, 12 I �22 J T Johnson Family · 6, 14 Taggert, Edward · 6 Taggert, Moses · 6 Thompson, George · 18 K Kent Country Club · 5, 19, 20, 22 U M Union Guardian Trust Company of Detroit · 14 University of Michigan · 6, 12, 17 Macey Furniture Factory · 11 N National City Company of New York · 13 S Sears Family · 20 Sligh, Charles · 8 Steketee Family · 20 W Wanty, Judge · 6 Warneke, Otto · 11 White Lake · 12, 15, 16 Whitman Family · 9 Wilson, Charles (Great-Uncle) · 6, 15 Y Yost, Bob · 17, 18 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/978ab47bd2d42adf7a9c785273e8a700.mp3 d370388d6f30ad9249010349122827b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_50Denison Title A name given to the resource Denison, Donald Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Denison, Donald Description An account of the resource Donald Denison was born in Grand Rapids, graduated from the University of Michigan ca. 1913, and served in WWI. His father was a judge who was appointed by President Taft in 1911 to the U.S. District Court of Appeals. Mr. Denison's father resigned as a judge in 1931 to enter private practice with the firm of Newton Baker, President Wilson's Secretary of War. Mr. Denison sold bonds through National City and his own company. He died August 21, 1983. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb774fc5e5fe62a601ad44d374c46edd.pdf 6bddf84ae4c70d07960293d7837cb77b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Dexter, Emma Foote (Mrs. Clarence) Interviewed on October 5, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 32 Biographical Information Emma Howe Foote was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 3 February 1885, the daughter of Elijah Hedding Foote and Frances Amelia Howe. She died 5 January 1983 in Grand Rapids and was interred at Graceland Mausoleum. Emma was married to Clarence S. Dexter in Grand Rapids on 16 January 1908. Clarence was born 4 June 1882 in Chicago, the son of George W. Dexter and Laura A. Sawyer. He died 4 April 1947 in Grand Rapids. Clarence and Emma had two daughters, Frances J. and Dorothy M. Dexter. Emma’s father, Elijah H. Foote was born in Olcott, Niagara County, New York on 24 March 1845, the son of Elijah Foote and Olivia Luce. He died in Lamont, Michigan on 9 September 1920 and was buried in Oak Hill Cemetery in Grand Rapids. Emma’s mother, Frances Amelia Howe was born 16 Apr 1843 in Ravenna, Ohio and was the daughter of Elisha Bigelow Howe and Celestia Russell. Frances died 23 March 1920 in Grand Rapids and was buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. ________ Interviewer: This interview with Mrs. Clarence Dexter was recorded October fifth, nineteen seventy-one. Ok, that’s going now. You, you were just saying your family has been here for approximately five generations. What was your, what was your family’s name? Mrs. Dexter: Well, my father’s name was Foote. My and my mother’s name was Howe. My father was born in Olcott, New York and drove out here and I don’t know when my mother came. She was born in Ohio and came from there to Grand Rapids. And I can’t go back too far but at the time of the Civil War, my Grandfather, and Grandmother Howe lived where the Peninsular Club is today and when my father came home from the Civil War, that’s where they were married and up on Lyon Street, Lyon and College and Fountain Street was the old Civil War campground. My father went from there to the Civil War. There’s a marker, it’s in the Central High School property now because they couldn’t put it in the middle of College Avenue where the old well was during the Civil War. And, it was guarded all the time by the Union Soldiers. Interviewer: The well was? Mrs. Dexter: Yes, and when Father came back from the war, he bought property in that district and built the first house that was built on the old campground and that was on the corner of Lyon �and College Avenue, the northeast corner there is another house, the old house still stands there, there’s another small house on each side of it now and all around the property at that time was larger, a good deal. Interviewer: Which, what’s the address of that house, do you know? Mrs. Dexter: When I, I think it’s five fifteen [505 Lyon is the Foote residence. 515 Lyon was the Dexter residence] Lyon. It’s a big grey house, next to the corner. And they lived there all their lives, and their four children were born there. I was the youngest one. Interviewer: Born in the house? Mrs. Dexter: In the house. Interviewer: Was that a, was the custom of the day for children to be born at home? Rather than… Mrs. Dexter: Oh, yes, yes. Interviewer: Did, was, was there a midwife in attendance or was it a doctor and a… Mrs. Dexter: Doctors. I don’t know, I never remember hearing anyone mention a midwife, I don’t know. Interviewer: When you say your father drove here, how did he, how? Mrs. Dexter: His family drove out from Olcott, New York, Interviewer: What did they drive, a horse and buggy? Mrs. Dexter: Yes, don’t think it was a covered wagon but they drove out in stages from there. Interviewer: Well then, you grew up on Lyon Street. Mrs. Dexter: Yes. When I was young the old UB hospital [United Benevolent Association] Hospital, which is now Blodgett Hospital, that was on the southwest corner of Lyon and College where the little Fountain Street School house is now until they built the new one over in East Grand Rapids. And, many of those old houses were built, the nearest house to that hospital property was Judge [Edwin A.] Burlingame., He lived on the corner of, well it was Lyon Place for awhile, now I believe it’s Goldberg[Goldsboro?] and Lyon Street. He’s quite a prominent judge here. And, Father, at that time was with Nelson & Matter Furniture Company that was down on the Canal and Monroe Street, it was called Canal Street then. And, then he was the, he left there and went to Grand Rapids Chair Company which was owned by the C.C. Comstock family and afterwards my father bought it from the Comstock estate. Interviewer: And maintained the name Grand Rapids Chair Company? �Mrs. Dexter: Yes, it’s still called the Grand Rapids Chair Company. After, let me see, my husband became the manager when my father retired in about nineteen seventeen. And he managed it until his death, no, he’d retired, he’d sold it to Mr. Charles Sligh then after that it was sold, to the Baker Furniture Company and now is in, is owned by a chain company that has a good many furniture factories. I don’t know the name of that, that chain. And then Father built the, when my oldest brother Stuart Foote came home from college he was with Father in the Grand Rapids Chair Company for a while and then they built the, Imperial Furniture Company and then my brother-in law Seal Reynolds, we bought, the family bought the old Kindel Factory and they had the Rey, the Foote-Reynolds Company. They made nothing but beds. Then afterwards, after our brother-in-law’s death it was sold back to the Kindel people. Interviewer: Why did, why did Kindels sell that company? Mrs. Dexter I don’t know. Interviewer: Was that, seems to me I remember hearing some, point that he, you know was very successful and then he decided that he was going to retire at a very early age and sold everything. Mrs. Dexter: Yes. Interviewer: And then after… Mrs. Dexter: That is so. Interviewer: …After a few years of retirement he couldn’t stand it so he bought it, bought it… Mrs. Dexter: Yes. Interviewer: ….Bought the company back. Mrs. Dexter: Yes. That’s true. Then another old building that I remember so well was the Methodist Church. That was at the corner, the where the Keeler building is today, the southeast corner of Division and Fountain Street. That was there for many years. Interviewer: What kind of church was it? Mrs. Dexter: Methodist Interviewer: What was the construction of it? Mrs. Dexter: Big red brick building, big red brick building. And then my sister, Ida Foote and Seal Reynolds were married there in nineteen hundred and four, I guess it was. It was so amusing it took so long to empty the church that the city fathers and fire department made ‘em put in two new exits to the church. Interviewer: What was it like growing up on Lyon Street? What was the neighborhood like? �Mrs. Dexter: Wonderful, everybody owned their own houses and we always, oh we had so many friends around it was, and we had big playgrounds and as we went to the, the old school that we went to as a grade school was on Fountain Street where Central High is today and then we went to High School down at Junior college (doorbell in background) so that we’ve seen the changes a great deal. And one thing maybe somebody might have told you, when we were youngsters and growing up here, mail boxes were on the all the street cars. Interviewer: I have heard about that. Mrs. Dexter: On the front and back. And you could stop a street car anywhere and mail your letters. They always said that it was a great advantage because they never could have a street car strike. Interviewer: (doorbell in background) Is that your front door? Mrs. Dexter: Can I shut that off, can you shut that off? [pause] Interviewer: Sure, yes. Do you think, what, what do you think of the Heritage Hill Association, and the work they are doing? Mrs. Dexter: Well, I think that it’s, it’s wonderful to have people interested and I think the different form of, architecture, architecture should be preserved because I think, I think anything in the early history of this city is important to the children growing up here. I think their background should mean something to them. But I think it’s maybe they, that’s their idea that they are just saving different styles of architecture. But there’s certainly a number of these homes are not the early homes in Grand Rapids. And I think it’s unfortunate, of course it’s late, there’re some of the homes that have gone that should have been preserved if they were going to do this kind of thing. And, that it is unfortunate, but, I don’t know how they can avoid it. If they want to collect samples of architecture, but I started to say it was unfortunate that people that own the property aren’t being allowed to remodel it if necessary because I think that’s going to be a hardship for some people. [Recording spotty at 10:32 through the end.] Interviewer: Yes, well they allow to remodel…. Mrs. Dexter: Do they? Interviewer: Yes, but what they’ve, what they’re, the reason why they put that rule into effect was that they, it’s not that they can’t remodel their homes but that when they remodel, if they remodel the exterior, they want them to, to maintain the, the style of the home instead of like a lot of these homes, they put up false facades on ‘em and one thing or another and you know they change the architecture on them. �Mrs. Dexter: Oh. Interviewer: So that the value of the home is destroyed, and they don’t want that done. Mrs. Dexter: Well that’s true. Interviewer: So, that’s why they put that rule into effect. I think that’s the reason why. But we were talking about your neighborhood and the number of children and that were, were the families very close? Mrs. Dexter: Well, just as it is today, there’s always some in the neighborhood that become good friends and some that are not. I think they weren’t anywhere near the number of (?) that there are now. People lived for long periods of time in the same neighborhood. Everyone owned their own homes and they were cared for in those days we had no slum districts. No inner-city problems. But that is bound to come with growth of a city. The changes that take place, people, large numbers coming in from different locations. Interviewer: How big was the city when you were a child? Do you know? Mrs. Dexter: I know we came out, out to the lake from, from Eastern Avenue on a little dummy line. Interviewer: Was that about where the country began? Mrs. Dexter: Yes, it was, it was, there was not much beyond that Interviewer: What was the country like out, out in East Grand Rapids at that time? Somebody was telling me that there was that it was kind of swampy or something around Wealthy and Lake Drive area, remember that? Mrs. Dexter: No, I don’t remember, it was all country because and of course we used to, what, later when the automobile came and we took long drives in the afternoon, why there was still beautiful country to drive in. But of course when I was very young, we didn’t do anything on Sunday. We didn’t even ride our bicycles on Sunday. It was a family day and the, we always went to church and had the afternoon at home. But as I say we all had large playgrounds and many of our friends some of my best friends, they are those that I went to school with from Kindergarten on. And that was the kind of city Grand Rapids was. And now there was, there was never rivalry you might call it, between the different manufacturers. The head of the, the heads of the factories were all intimate friends and remained always. We had I think it was at one time, fifty four large furniture factories here and, they, oh they always had beautiful flower gardens around them and there was always a prize given every year for the loveliest gardens. And there was a personal touch to the life of the city that you don’t have now. Which can’t be helped as a city grows. That’s bound to come. �Interviewer: Could you expand a little on that, on that, what the personal touch, what, can you give me some examples of that, how the city, why or I mean how the feeling of that was. Mrs. Dexter: Which was just a natural outgrowth. You see they were now they, for instance the two Mr. David Browns, they were no relation, but they were the owners and, of the Century Furniture Company and they, there was the finest furniture manufactures at the Century Company than any factories in the United States have ever been. But they had no sons and that proved true in many cases. There no sons to carry on the businesses. Now while my father, his, son was with him for a long time but then as I say built the Imperial, well he had no sons that were interested in carrying that on. So we sold it. And that was the case in many of the factories that after the original leaders died, the furniture, the factories were liquidated and sold to outside corporations. Now Mr. Robert Irwin of the Irwin Furniture Company had no sons to carry on, it was very pathetic because if they had had sons that were more were interested and could, capable of carrying on the business, I think the industry would have stayed intact longer. Interviewer: You think that it still would be in existence? Mrs. Dexter: Well it still is in existence with factories that we have, but not in the proportion that it was. We had, the, of course they had their big showrooms and their big sales in January and July. And several, well fifteen hundred to two thousand men came every season to buy furniture. They came from all over the United States and from even abroad. Then for years we also had a semi-showing in the spring and fall. Well, that finally was given up but those big showings were, oh, it was a friendly spirit always. Now the Grand Rapids Chair Company was the first ones that started serving dinners at their factory during the furniture season. The Chair Company was out so far from downtown that, if the men went out on the street car or had a hack to drive out, they would get nicely started and the noon-hour would come and so many times they’d go back down to the Pantlind Hotel and wouldn’t come back in the afternoon and my father said they’d have to meet that situation. So they started in serving sandwiches and coffee and bought some pies. Well eventually it developed into a much larger thing. They had a cook and screened off part of the showroom to make the luncheons, well one day the cook failed to appear and my father telephoned for me to come immediately and serve the luncheon. So I did. I went out and he gave me a boy from the factory to tend to my errands and run across to the grocery store across the street and it then developed more and more into a meal, finally my father built a great big dining room and kitchen on to the factory for me and I managed that, caterers and waitress as long as we owned the factory and that started the custom of the various factories serving meals, luncheons at noon. And I guess some of ‘em still do. But they knew it had been the custom that was started by Mr. Foote at the Chair Company. And he always had a great big New Year’s Dinner. That opened the furniture season and so out of consideration for him and their affection for him, they, none of the other factories ever served New Year’s dinner. They all went to the Chair Company. And it was quite an event. And, but then… recalls many memories. �Interviewer: What were some of the other memories about the furniture business and the furniture factory and so on? Mrs. Dexter: Well, there was always this feeling of cordiality, the manufacturers never hesitated to invite, the, their shows were always open to each other. They always went. There never was any question of hesitancy that they might copy their designs. There never was that feeling. It was always so friendly. And now that doesn’t exist. It’s almost impossible I believe, to go get into a factory to see a furniture design, a showing. Interviewer: Yes, was that a pretty exciting time, when the buyers would come to town for the shows? Mrs. Dexter: It was just thrilling. It was just as exciting as it could be. They had, the Furniture Manufacturers Association had beautiful rooms, dining rooms and lounges and things in the Pantlind Hotel. They used to have beautiful dinners there. They always held their meetings there. But they used to have beautiful dinners there for the outside, the visiting buyers. And they, they did a great deal to entertain the buyers when they came. Interviewer: How would the, what, how would entertaining go, how would they entertain ‘em? Mrs. Dexter: Well. Many of them became personal friends. And then if they were, if these buyers were friends of yours, why, you entertained them in your homes. As well as the dinners that they gave down at the manufacturers’ club dinner, so that, I don’t know… Interviewer: What form would the entertaining at home take in those days? Mrs. Dexter: Just a personal dinner party. Interviewer: Did it differ at all from today, the way people entertain today? Mrs. Dexter: Well, it wasn’t the same thing at all. Interviewer: How was it different? Mrs. Dexter: Well, you had a beautiful dinner party in your own home but you don’t have the help to do it now days. Now unfortunately most of us have to do our entertaining at the club, ‘because you just can’t get help. And it isn’t half as nice. Interviewer: Where, where did the help come from that was in the homes? Mrs. Dexter: Well, it, of course in those days we all had help that lived in. Or you there were a great many cateresses that would go, come to your home to get the dinners. Bring, have cateresses and waitresses that we had for years and years and years. Now at the Chair Company I always, for many years would have the same cook and the same waitresses. One of ‘em is, couple of ‘em in fact are still alive that used to serve. �Interviewer: What, what were their names? Mrs. Dexter: I don’t know. Interviewer: Ok. There’s something I wanted to ask you about those dinner parties. Mrs. Dexter: Well, it a, most everyone could entertain at. Twelve at their table and sometimes if they were having more they would have, they’d have sit down tables, in those days we didn’t have buffet meals. But you would have smaller tables. But the majority of them were a dinner of twelve. And they were lovely. Interviewer: Who was the most spectacular entertainer in town? Mrs. Dexter: Oh, I wouldn’t know. Interviewer: What was the most spectacular dinner party that you ever went to? Mrs. Dexter: Oh, I don’t remember that. There was so many that were really charming that it’s hard to say. Mr. Joe Griswold, who was the head of the Griswold Furniture Company, his son Joseph Griswold is still in the furniture business here. Their factory was sold so Mr. Joe Griswold travels for other factories. But, Mr. and Mrs. [Joseph G.] Griswold lived on Fountain across from Central High School and they did a great deal of beautiful entertaining and Mr. Robert Irwin did too. He had a big home on, on Fulton Street and there were a good many. Interviewer: Did the, was the society the people that had the most association with each other, was it, set up, like the furniture people, did the furniture people hang with each other mostly? Mrs. Dexter: Well, they were quite a large group of the furniture manufacturers that were very good friends but I, I would think you would say there were two or three groups, with the large number of manufacturer that we had here in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: OK, Mrs. Dexter: And then of course there were other very delightful social groups. Interviewer: Like, like what? Mrs. Dexter: Oh, well. Mr. and Mrs. M.R. Bissell in those days had a beautiful home life with their family and their friends and then there was the [S. L.] Withey family and the [Charles H.] Bender family, and so many of them. Interviewer: How does, how does living today, what, what’s the biggest difference, in living today compared to living then? �Mrs. Dexter: The speed that one, everyone, travels at now days seems to me. We lived a slower life in those days, you could get your friends together more quickly and saw more of them I think; there was more leisure. Interviewer: Yes, that’s interesting. They talk about the amount of leisure time that people have today. That it’s always increasing and so on. Mrs. Dexter: I think they, I think they have more leisure hours if they want to plan them leisurely, but now where they have time from their business they’re always rushing to go fishing and always rushing to play golf or something of that sort so that when you come right down to it, you don’t have the peaceful hours that you used to have. And then another thing, people travel a great deal more now than they used to. Everyone’s just departing for long trip of just getting home from one and in those they didn’t travel nearly so much. There weren’t the facilities, we didn’t have the airplanes. So we stayed home and enjoyed your friends, had more time to be with them. One interesting thing I remember about furniture business, it was so long ago but, it was after we started to have airplanes, why my husband was the first one that shipped furniture by airplane from Grand Rapids, I had the picture somewhere out the old airport out there loading furniture, crated furniture on to the plane to ship…by airplane. Interviewer: When was, when did that, occur? Mrs. Dexter: (I’m) trying to think, I don’t know. Forty years ago. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Dexter: Must have been. Interviewer: Well, that’s the kind of thing that could be looked up. Mrs. Dexter: Yes. Interviewer: Pretty easily. Mrs. Dexter: Yes, ‘because there were pictures, they had ‘em in the papers, that, so there may be records of them. But Fulton Street was a beautiful street in those days. There were so many trees of course, and the houses all the way up the hill were lovely homes. They’re gone, so many of them now. And Mr. [Robert] Irwin lived there then across from them was, they, Mr. [Morris] Cassard’s house and, all the way down. The house that’s now the Women’s City Club and the old Pike home which was the Art Gallery and I was president of the Art Gallery when we converted that building and built on the additions…. Interviewer: When was that? Mrs. Dexter: Oh, the before we built that building, we opened it our art gallery, had rooms on the upper, where Dean Witter used to be at two Monroe, right across from the park were, our rooms �were upstairs there. And then the, Mrs. M. J. Clark bought the old Pike home and we raised similar amount of money to convert it and built the Art Gallery and it’s been there of course ever since. Interviewer: I’m going to turn this tape over; I think it’s almost out. Mrs. Dexter: I think you’ve got enough. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/49bd2f13efa8484894c145e65c59c413.mp3 5ee57cfc98a9f10ca93bce6af80bc88e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_32Dexter Title A name given to the resource Dexter, Emma Foote Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dexter, Emma Foote Description An account of the resource Emma Howe Foote was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on February 3, 1885, the daughter of Elijah Hedding Foote and Frances Amelia Howe. She lived at the corner of Lyon and College, and attended Junior College. Emma was married to Clarence S. Dexter, prominent Grand Rapids furniture manufacturer and financier in Grand Rapids on January 16, 1908. She was the president of Art Gallery on Fulton (Old Pike's home) and a regent of the Michigan Daughters of the American Revolution. She died January 5, 1983 in Grand Rapids and was interred at Graceland Mausoleum. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c56fed701a4e518244923acf859564e1.pdf 19d8274fc7783db246a8a40d493b07c6 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Herbert Hefferan Interviewed on November 10, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #37 (55:16) Biographical Information Herbert Hefferan was born 16 January 1875 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, the son of Edward and Ellen (Laughlin) Hefferan. Edward was born in Michigan about 1842 and died in Grand Rapids on 1 January 1900 at the Kent County Jail. Ellen died 22 May 1903 at the family home on Quimby Street in Grand Rapids. Both Edward and Ellen are buried in St. Andrews Cemetery. Herbert died March 1972 at Blodgett Hospital and is buried in Woodlawn Cemetery. ___________ Interviewer: Alright. I suppose… Herbert: You will want to know my age first wouldn‟t you?. Interviewer: Yes, go ahead, how old are you? Herbert: I‟m ninety-six and a half. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: I am the oldest man here. Interviewer: Were your born in Grand Rapids? Herbert: Yes, I was born on Monroe Avenue, two blocks north of the Pantlind Hotel, it was Canal Street then, only across the road, across the road from… it was called Canal Street. Interviewer: Were (there) homes down there? Herbert: No, there were buildings. Same buildings were up until they tore them all down. It was the Crisp(?) Block, I was in the Crisp(?) Block. Now I am thinking about that, that took place, we lived on the third floor, a tenant that lived on the second floor, a store on the first floor and in the basement where my father ran a saloon. Interviewer: Hmmm. Herbert: My father had, a man had a fight with a woman and he killed another man but not in my father‟s saloon, up on the street. And the man run across the road and ran upstairs to the hallway to the top of the third floor and hid behind a chimney. Well, they put my father who was six foot �2 one and a half weighed one hundred ninety-five pounds, they put him watching down the stairs. But he didn‟t have no gun, and this fellow on the roof had a gun, so my father wouldn‟t stay any longer, so he beat it. And ever afterwards, we would jolly him about it. We used to buy ten cents worth of peanuts and Mother, I, Father and all would go down and sit in this hallway and we‟d all kid him about running away. And here is the funny part of it, twenty-five years later I come down in an electric car and Joe Smith, do you remember Joe Smith?, [He] and [Dad] were [the] only two detectives and Joe Smith was standing in front of this same hallway when I got off this electric car. I lived up on the north end on Quimby Street came down on the car and I got off there and here was Joe Smith and he had a gun out and putting cartridges into it. I said, ”What‟s the matter Joe, what happened?” Well you know Lapman that runs the tramp boarding house, a tramp robbed him last night and killed him He is up on this roof and you are just the right man, that I want. I want you to stay down here at the foot of the stairs, and (this is twenty five years later), and watch it. I said alright Joe, but make sure to bring him down. When he went away, I ran over to the store, the Heyman Furniture Company, it was two hundred feet away and our night watchman had a gun. He carried it at night and he left it in my drawer, in my desk. So I run over and got this gun, and I got back there Joe had came down from the top of the roof, and he had the guy and had manacles on him. Interviewer: I just wanted to make sure it was being picked up (apparently the tape recorder). Herbert: I‟ll have to give you another; I was always mixed up in murders. In Los Angeles, did you ever see a man kill another? Interviewer: No. I‟ve seen a man get shot, but the man didn‟t die. Herbert: But he didn‟t die? Interviewer: No Herbert: I saw two and they both died. I was going down the street in Los Angeles with Mr. and Mrs. Stonehouse, we had an apartment together down there. We were going down Sixth St., down past Jack Dempsey‟s place and we were just going to cross the road and there was a policeman in the middle of the square, he rode this way and this way, and he was in a box. This is what they would do in the old days, they would turn this way, and they wanted you to stop and let the others go. This man ran out of a restaurant and he ran right towards this policeman, and we had just got within about ten [to] fifteen feet of him, when another man came out and begins to holler, “Stop thief, stop thief!” The fellow that was supposed to be the thief ran right towards the policeman. Now the policeman didn‟t have no jury, or asked him if he done it, or tried to arrest him or anything, he just picked up his gun and took aim and shot him right through the temple, dropped dead right in front of us. I was from here to that... Interviewer: The policeman shot him? �3 Herbert: Shot him dead. Interviewer: He shot him? Didn‟t even know if he was guilty or not? Herbert: Didn‟t know anything about him, never seen him before, took shot him right through the temple, killed him deader than a door mat. Aunt Mattie, I‟ll show you my Aunt Mattie, and I got Uncle Albert. This is my family in here. You come right up here. There is my Aunt Mattie when she was twenty-seven years old; she was eighty-five when she died. This is my sister in the center here, she died two years ago. Right back, my Aunt Mattie owned them vinegar quarts back there. They were all a hundred years old, every one; we bought them brand new and gave them to her. Then she gave them to my sister in here. Interviewer: I knew your sister. Herbert: Did you? Interviewer: Sure, Mrs. Thrall, that‟s her right there. Herbert: No, that‟s Mrs. Beaton. Interviewer: This is Mrs. Thrall. Herbert: That‟s Mrs. Thrall, that‟s my sister in the center, you see. That‟s Dr. Beaton‟s wife there, and that‟s Dr. Beaton‟s child. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: This is Mrs. Thrall‟s daughter. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Now, we had the Indians, you know where the orphan asylum is? Well, you go up to College Avenue and go down the hill to the creek, you know? Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Down there, that was been a woods. Now, the government had set up a place for the Indians at Ada along the river bank. They gave them tents and gave them food, but they didn‟t have any wood to burn. So they had to come down here and gather wood. Right there at that creek on College Avenue, it goes up one hill; there are two different hills there. You know how it is there? Interviewer: Right at Leonard, College and Leonard? Herbert: Right down from Leonard, College Avenue, you go down there .Well, they didn‟t have no wagon to draw it. What do you suppose they done? �4 Interviewer: I don‟t know? Herbert: They went to work and cut down two trees, the roots of the trees they cut off around like that and the narrow parts acted as fills(?) for the horse, and they put the horse inside the fills there and they had a box on top of these two trees and instead of the wheels turning around they just dragged on ground from the roots of the trees, two roots on each side and they could lead the horse. Well, they filled the box with wood and drawn it out to Ada, where they had their place. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Comical and really quite a thing to see what did with the knowledge that they used to get that. And some nights and then afterwards, they would sell… it will come to me in a minute, a common thing. I am beginning to forget a lot of this stuff. My age is going against me. Anyhow they took all that stuff and drew it out there. And then in the middle of the winter, they…in January, you know how there is a January thaw, well, they came back after more. It was warmer weather and all the snow would go and that is why they called it Indian Summer. They would draw the wood out. They had it on the other side of the river. Along the river bank was where they had their reservation. Interviewer: Now, that‟s not there anymore, is it? Herbert: No, but it was until up to ten or fifteen years ago, there were some signs of it; a sign up there told where it was. Interviewer: Yes. Where did you grow up as a child, on Monroe Avenue? Herbert: No, we lived on College Avenue, see we lived up on North College Avenue, where we had five acres of land. And black bears, wild black bears, used to come out and eat our strawberries. Interviewer: Where abouts was that on College Avenue? Herbert: The house is still standing. Interviewer: Where is that? Herbert: You know where Spencer Avenue is? Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Quimby Street, right between them two, on the east side of the street. The house is still standing. Pages lived there last I knew. Interviewer: That was quite a ways out in the country then, huh? �5 Herbert: Well, no it ain‟t so very far from where they were down to Plainfield Avenue, about a half a mile or so. Interviewer: At the time your father built the house? Herbert: He had a log house, and in the winter time my father used to build a cellar like outdoors, he dug a trench outdoors and lined it with straw and then put cabbage, potatoes and stuff like that into the cellar. And then he covered it over with dirt, straw then dirt over it. He left an opening where he could reach in, on this side and pull out cabbage or this side he could pull out potatoes. Then when we butchered, butchered your hog, we had this neighbor, we knew him real well. I forgot his name now, knew it real well when we butchered the hog we would give them half the hog. Then when they butchered one, they gave us half of it. We put half of it down in salt pork for us, and the other half of it we used for fresh meat. I had quite an experience. In the olden times the horse thief was caught stealing horses, they took him out and hung him. Hi Doty was the greatest horse thief of my time; he lived across the road from us on Spencer Avenue. And they came to me one day, when I was about twelve years old and they said they were going downtown to do some shopping, they had two sons and they took one son with them and they‟d be back at five o‟clock. And I didn‟t know he was a horse thief, our folks didn‟t know he was a horse thief, but he had about twenty horses in the pasture up about half a mile from where we were standing then. Hi Doty, and Bill Doty and the son who worked with him, Jay Doty worked with the mother and didn‟t steal or anything and the other two did. Well, two men came along and wanted to see Doty. And I told them he would be back at five o‟clock. So they said, “Do they have any horses? We want to buy some horses. We want to buy some horses.” I said, “Sure come on I‟ll show you.” And I took them down, and we went to this field and I left them there and they were writing down stuff. I didn‟t know what they were doing. Five o‟clock they drove in, Hi Doty drove into the yard, I ran down to tell him there were men there and they wanted to buy some horses. Men stepped out from behind there with revolvers and took him and sent him to jail. They got life. It was written up in the Grand Rapids Herald. Did you ever hear of the Grand Rapids Herald? Interviewer: Sure. The Grand Rapids Herald? Herbert: Two or three times in was written up. Two or three write ups, must be in the library by now, didn‟t mention my name. Interviewer: Oh. He got life imprisonment for that? Herbert: He got life in prison for that. Both he and his son, they were the ones that stole those horses, instead of hanging them, he got life in prison. Interviewer: What kind of name is that, Doty? Is that Irish name? �6 Herbert: No, I think he was a Yankee, an out and out Yankee. The Press, the Grand Rapids Herald had a number of write ups about him. Jay Doty, the famous horse thief. Herbert: I, I went to work I went downtown to work in eighteen ninety-five, near as I can remember. I went to work across from the Michigan Trust Company. You know where the Michigan Trust Company is? Interviewer: Yes Herbert: The corner of Ottawa there, a carpet store Smith and Sanford, where the Michigan Trust Company is now was an apple orchard. I saw them cut the trees down and build the (Michigan) Trust Company. I saw them build the old City Hall, that they‟re tearing down and I saw them build the old Court House. Took them five years to build the Court House, they didn‟t have enough money. The last argument was they had to put a cupola on it, like a church on top and they didn‟t have enough money. It cost four hundred dollars. They were fighting it as much as they could, and finally decided to do it. And the ones opposing it said, now I kind of forget…., let‟s see the ones opposing it said it would be a home for the doves. And they argued it over and anyhow they got the four hundred dollars and built the cupola and that night the doves move in. Interviewer: Now the City Hall was built in the eighteen eighties, wasn‟t it? Herbert: Yes. Interviewer: Were you working downtown then, how old were you when you went to work? Herbert: I must have been about fourteen years old… Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: …when I went downtown to work. Interviewer: You used to go down as a child. Herbert: Now here is where I have the advantage over everybody that wrote any books was, that the city limits first extended to Wealthy Avenue and to Sweet Street and then they kept extending it, see, and anybody living down on Wealthy Avenue didn‟t know what was happening at Sweet Street, cause there was no way to go unless you had a horse and wagon to travel. But us kids went everywhere you see, we went down to the south end and went to the north end. And we went on the river when the ice, iceskating on the ice up to Plainfield and back. Use to build, used to get lumber, wood out of the yards from the factories, the logging companies, see they were cutting up pine. Pine was ten dollars a thousand, that‟s what white pine was. And I went to work in the grocery store Lafoyes for a dollar a week and they give me my meals. I had to be there at six o‟clock in the morning and had to stay until nine o‟clock at night. And I had to come down Sunday and take the horse out to give him a drink to the well, water for him, and curry him all, clean out the stable and everything for him for a dollar a week. I worked until nine o‟clock �7 during the week and twelve o‟clock on Saturday nights. Then I went downtown to work, and I worked in this carpet store across where I was talking about, that was there near College Avenue and North Avenue and Spencer. Then I got in to fracas ….that pretty near cost me my life. Mr. Heyman was head man, Mr. [A. Amos] Raven was the general manager, a man named Rankins worked in the, was manager of the carpet department. I worked in the carpet department under Rankins. They caught Rankins out, I just am mentioning this, but they let him go. They gave me the job of manager of the carpet department. I got up to fifteen dollars a week and after that, Mr. Raven was the general manager and he and I were very friendly but this Rankins and he were not very friendly, they were fighting all the time. When he fired Rankins, why he put me in place of him in the carpet department at fifteen dollars a week. I worked a couple of years that way, when Mr. Raven was taken sick and whenever he went out to dinner or he went away anywhere, he called me downstairs to take charge. So when, I was appointed general manager and received quite a larger sum. There was a Hollander, he was the oldest one there and as a salesman he drew eleven dollars a week. And when they made me manager he quit working, he was so mad because they didn‟t make him, they used to make the oldest person in the institution a head instead of the best man they thought for it. When they made me general manager, why he quit his job and went and bought a dry goods store. He and I were always friends but he was sore at, he didn‟t get the job, you see. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: I came on one day, Mr. Heyman was headman I was next, Bill Decator was next and he had a credit man he was next to okay sales. You‟d come in and buy two hundred fifty dollars worth of stuff and paid fifty dollars down, so much a week; he could okay the sale, if everything else was satisfactory. One day he okay‟d a sale that was five hundred and fifty dollars and one hundred and fifty dollars down and he took fifty dollars down and delivered the goods without the… I wasn‟t there that day, and he delivered the goods without the other hundred dollars. And he did it with only fifty dollars down. Well, doubt, he‟d have permission had I been there, but he took it upon himself. Anyhow the people didn‟t pay it and he delivered the goods. Then it was up against me to take over from there and sent over after the goods. And in come three men and three women, they were tough looking guys. One of them was a big guy. And I didn‟t know at that time, but do you remember Dillinger that was shot down by the FBI in Chicago? Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Well, this guy was Dillinger‟s right hand man, robbing banks and one thing and another. He came in to see why I sent over after the goods and I told him. [He said,] “Well, I‟ll have that money tomorrow.” And I said, “That won‟t do, you promised it today and we want it today.” He said, “How the hell you going to get it?” I said, “We‟ll have to send over after the goods.” He said, “You‟re going after the goods?” And I said, “I don‟t know, I might. I‟m not sure what I would do.” And he said, “That will be the last trip you ever take.” He said, “I don‟t like the looks of your mug.” And I said, “I don‟t like yours either.” He says, “What are you �8 going to do?” I said, “I told you just what I was going to do and I‟m going to do it.” He pulled a gun out and stuck it in my chest and said, “I will blow your god damn guts out.” The girl cashier sitting on a high stool toppled off, [and] the colored man and colored woman run in the back room and I was there alone. I pulled the drawer open where the night watchman‟s revolver was and I let him see it. He said, “Pull out your gat, pull out your gat, we‟ll take ten paces here. I‟ll kill you deader than a door mat. I should have let you have it in the guts anyhow.” The others came all running down then and they grabbed a hold of „im and pulled him away and they went up and pretty soon he came down and said, “Buddy I‟ve been drinking.” And he said, “I‟m sorry and I want to apologize.” And I said, “That‟s all right, we all get that way.” He said, “Well if I hadn‟t been drinking I wouldn‟t have done it.” We shook hands and I went up with him. He said he would come in and pay it the next day. The next morning when the Grand Rapids Press came out, there was a robbery of the bank only one block from where we delivered the goods. So I knew right away who done it. So I went up and told Ab Carroll or who I told, but Frank O‟Malley, I forget now which one it was I told about it. But he said, “Okay we‟ll take over from here Hefferan.” Waited all day, didn‟t hear nothing from him, so it must have been the wrong people that I gave him the tip on. So I took three rigs and six men and sent them over to the place at night, about seven o‟clock, it was dark. And I told two of them to go up to the house and the rest to stop a block away from the house and two of them to go up to the house, and tell them they were there to make legal demand for the goods. If they didn‟t give it to them, we put it so we could re(?) them, see? Is it alright? Interviewer: Yes, go ahead. [END OF SIDE 1 31:10] Interviewer: Five men came out of the bushes? Herbert: Yes, they‟re five men and they had guns, and put them in their backs and stood them up against the wall. They asked them, you know, who they were and what they wanted. And they told him. They said, “Did Hefferan send you over here?” They said yes. “Well, come on, get away from here, these are our men they‟re detectives.” Interviewer: They were policemen, huh? Herbert: I didn‟t think, I gave him the right tip, see? They were hiding in the bushes around there waiting for these fellows to come back. The man that got the money, the one that was going to kill me, he took the money and went out of town. They got our men away and at twelve o‟clock they came home, these two brothers and three women, and they arrested them. And those two got life. Interviewer: Did they ever catch the other man? �9 Herbert: Well, I don‟t know what happened, let‟s see, he was the one that was going to shoot me is the one that shot the sheriff down in Indiana, released Dillinger and another fellow from the prison; this fellow that was going to shoot me. Interviewer: Hmmmm…. Herbert: So afterwards, he got into a mix-up and he went over to Wisconsin and there was a summer resort closed up but the help was still there, see? He and five others came over and took possession of it and the FBI heard about it and they worked a man in. Sent him in delivering some stuff in there and they kept him in there. They killed this FBI man, but before they did, the FBI man killed him, this fellow that was going to kill me. Interviewer: So, were they quite a few guns around in those days? Sounds like everybody was packing a pistol. Herbert: Yes, everybody had a gun. I‟ll tell you what we had more of anything then was, when the Civil War was over, then men brought back their old muskets, and in those days, they loaded them with powder and shot and a cap. And these soldiers, now for instance there was a mother that sent five sons, one of them got killed, and another had his legs taken off. The way they shot off his legs was they put a chain with a cannon ball on each end and put it in the cannon and they shot it and it went around and around and took the legs right off of one of the men. They were the Pages, the Page people. Page Street was named after them up on the north end. Afterwards he had a job down to Washington, as a door tender. He had wooden legs. He could take a pail of water and go up to a fence and go right over without spilling a drop. He used to do that as a feat. Interviewer: What was downtown like when you were working down there? Herbert: Well, they were all, I knew Grandpa Steketee, Grandpa Herpolsheimer. I knew Henry Spring, did you ever hear of Henry Spring? He was a great lady‟s man. He ran one store, and he was always dolled up and had a bouquet on every day and was a great lady‟s man. Henry, erFriedman, I knew all of them in my younger days. Interviewer: Were there people living above those stores downtown? Herbert: Live in what? Interviewer: Were people living in those buildings along down town those buildings? Herbert: Yes, they lived upstairs. if it were three story building with a three-story store they didn‟t do it, of course, but they lived up above over the stores. Mom and Dad nearly owned one at one time, had all the arrangements made and then backed out. Let‟s see, what can I tell you, else? Well, I‟ll tell you, when I was working in the grocery store I had to wash the windows and trim the windows on West Leonard Street between Scribner and Front, on the south side of the �10 street. I had a bunch of bananas I had to take down, and it was only about „that much‟ bananas, but it had a long stalk, you know how it curls out like that? Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Well. I went to take it off and you had a rope from the ceiling and you put a knot here and you put a loop thru the bananas, hang them under that knot, you see. I went to take them off of there. While I was taking it off I shook out one of these spiders - tarantula. Interviewer: Tarantula, yes. Herbert: I shook him out and my arm was bare up to my elbow and lit on my arm and before I could knock him off he bit me. That was nine-thirty in the morning and by twelve at night, they told me they would let me know at twelve o‟clock if I would live or die. I spent quite an evening, and I went up there and the poison went this way, it was this hand right here, the fingers all swelled up. If it would have went towards the artery the other way, it would have gone to my heart and killed me. But it went this way and it saved me. The next morning they lanced me right there and black pus came out, just from that time in the morning at nine-thirty morning to the next morning at ten o‟clock, awful pain. Then I had a dog and there were a lot of rattlesnakes and it was nothing for us, we used to kill four to five rattlesnakes a day on College Avenue from Spencer Avenue up to Carrier Street there, Leonard Street. It was all stone in there, big stones, big as that bed you know, on the surface. Hot sun would heat up the stones, the snakes would come out on a cold day and lay on those stones. We used to go down and kill them, it was nothing to kill five or six of them. So one day, I was standing there and a rattlesnake struck at me. And my dog jumped between me and the rattlesnake. I had knee pants on and he jumped between me and the rattlesnake and the rattlesnake hit him right on the lip. One place, you could just [barely] see it. You know how they work; they got a sharp prong that they dive right into you and they squirt this poison into that, following in with that prong. What gets me is I never could understand how the damn snake can carry poison in his own head and not poison himself. Can you? Interviewer: I don‟t know, must have a sac that it is stored in. Herbert: Herbert: Must be something that prevents it from going to any dangerous part, but they have it in their head. My dog died that night, the next day we killed ten rattlesnakes. You can tell about the conditions of the country at that time. Lots of Blue Racers, and lots of Garter snakes. By the time I was going to St. Alphonsus. I am the oldest member of St. Andrews Church, and the oldest member of St. Alphonsus and the oldest member of St Thomas Church living today. One day I went to school and I took a Garter snake in my pocket and let him out in school, the sister grabbed up the Garter snake, she knew how to handle it, threw him out of doors and she said, “What will you think of next, anyway, what will you do anyhow?” She started to laugh, “The idea of bringing that snake, now what did you expect to accomplish by that? I said, “He got away from me.”No, you put him on the floor…” �11 You want anything out of town? Interviewer: Pardon, no, I kind of like to stay centering around Grand Rapids, if we can. Herbert: Around Grand Rapids? Do you want me to tell you about the stage coach robbery? Interviewer: Was that here in Grand Rapids? Herbert: No, it was in Yellowstone Park. Interviewer: Who robbed the stage? Herbert: Two soldiers. Interviewer: Huh! Herbert: Two American soldiers, quite interesting? Interviewer: Yeah? Tell me the story. (both laughing) Herbert: Well see, we travelled there. About a dozen coaches, one after the other, one following every so often then we would get to some place where there was something to see, why we would stay two hours for dinner. We would have our dinner and then we would go out and see the different springs, you know, Old Faithful and all of them. Well we were coming down, we came down a long stretch and we were seventh in a row, and we were held up. They came down this way and then they turned this way - north. Well some of them had been robbed before, and we were the next one up, we were here, and the others went. The first ones got down to the soldier‟s camp and they brought five soldiers back with them, armed and these fellows saw them coming and they dove into the Yellowstone River and started to swim across. And these five soldiers come up and got down on their knees and took aim them and shot all around them but didn‟t hit anybody. Those guys had waterproofed guns and when they got to the other side they begin to shoot back. We had to get out of the coaches and climb under the coaches to, for protection. Well, after we were all through with that, we started north, and made that turn north. When we got up a ways, there was a place where you could buy bread. And when you go on farther and there was a place where the black bears would come down. And they‟d come up to the stagecoach, and you‟d break off bread and feed it to them, see. Well, we got up that far when I was driving the horses; I was driving the horses for them then. A fellow taught me on the way up. I was driving the horses, we got up and here was a black bear and three little cubs ahead of them, two black bears and had three little cubs. A man ran out there and grabbed a hold of one of these cubs. The driver said give me those lines Hefferan, and get a club and another man and drive that bear off or he will kill that man just as sure as the world. I run down and got a fellow and got two clubs and by hollering see, scared him more than anything else. Anyhow before we could get to him, this bear got to him, he was holding the cub, his face was all exposed like that and she took the whole side of his face off. We were yelling and waving the clubs, we scared her �12 off. We picked him up and carried him back. I got him, I held him in the stagecoach, bleeding terribly and we went up to the hotel and brought him into the doctor and that‟s the last I ever seen him. Left at eight o‟clock in the morning, I don‟t ever know how he ever came out. Interviewer: Hmm. When was that, when did you make that trip out there? Herbert: I don‟t know. I have pictures of all of it. Another thing I went to see, I was down in El Paso. Have you been there? Interviewer: No. Herbert: The Rio Grande River runs around El Paso and the south side is Juarez, and the north side where El Paso is all up high on banks and their down below. Well, I had a friend that lived down there and wanted me to call on her when I came down. Well, I was on my way to California. I went and stayed at their place and then her husband sold goods to the… what is the fellow say of fighting the great war? Interviewer: Pancho Villa? Herbert: Yeah, Pancho Villa. They expected that night that he would cross over the river, well, he had to fight and he drove the Mexican government soldiers across the river. And the Americans put up a place a mile square, in two days, had cottages and everything for the soldiers that were driven across from the other side. It was given out that they were going to come across and attack the soldiers in this place where they built for them; the Americans had built for them. My friend said to me now, you are staying at the hote, said you have been staying in your hotel at night and up here during the day, but now you must come up here and stay at night also. We got to have all the men we can get because they are coming across to attack, and it will be a day and a half yet before the American soldiers can get in from their encampment. I said, alright, so I went up in the middle of the night, and I heard a commotion outside. They‟d asked me if I could use a gun, I said sure I can use a gun. There was a commotion outside so I got up and dressed the rest of the way, I wasn‟t all undressed. Then I went outside and there was soldier, a sergeant and five men and he had a Gatling gun, that‟s what they used to use years ago, you know? Interviewer: Yes, Herbert: In place of a cannon. I asked him, how about it, I‟ve got a gun inside but I don‟t know if you can use me or not? The man said no, we won‟t need you. I have five men here now, and every block down on the street I have a Gatling gun. We‟re up high and they„re down below, if they start anything we have it checked out like a checker board. Mine is number five all I got to do is fire in number five and in five minutes we will have Juarez wiped off the map. But they didn‟t, nothing happened. So the next day, nobody was allowed to go over to Juarez on account of, when you went over there they, if you were a stranger they grabbed you and took your clothes �13 all off, leave your underwear on and rob you of the money you had. So Mr. Heath, that was the man I was staying with at his house, he sold for a wholesale grocery. He had a big order from him, they had to get it [and] so he wanted to know if I wanted to go across with him. I said “Sure I‟ll go with you.” And he said, “I‟ll take care of you, alright.” We got going over there and going along on the street and they would stop us, he would say something in Spanish and they would leave us alone right away. We went up to this house, and Villa had his headquarters in the opera house and nobody that I knew of had seen Villa, everybody wanted to see Villa. He went into the courthouse, but I couldn‟t go in there with him, I had to stay outside. There were two Mexicans guarding, you know Mexicans are short, like Japanese but heavier; all their clothes didn‟t fit them in those days. There were two fellows with general‟s suits on and hats. Their suits didn‟t fit them, twice to big for them. And they had gone there and so, when he went in they began to talk to me, trying to ask me something. But I couldn‟t answer them because I didn‟t know what they said. They were so disgusted. And then Villa drove up, and I was as close to Villa as you are [to me]. Interviewer: Hmmm? Herbert: Everybody wanted to see Villa, and I was there looking right at him, waiting for him to come out. When he came out I told him those two guys there with the general suits on asking me, were trying to get something out of me and I don‟t know what they wanted. He said something in Spanish to them and he said they wanted a cigarette. So I gave them each a pack of cigarettes, I was smoking then. I don‟t smoke now. They bowed and bowed. And then when I left, he didn‟t attack, you know; he didn‟t attack across there. When I left he attacked a town just a mile and half below there and he killed a lot of Americans on the train. When I went on the train ahead of it, I took the train ahead of it and was alright and came back home. Interviewer: Yeah….. INDEX A H Albert, Uncle · 3 B Beaton Family · 3 D Decator, Bill · 7 Dillinger, John · 8, 9 Doty Family · 5, 6 Herpolsheimer, Grandpa · 9 Heyman Furniture Company · 2 Heyman, Mr. · 2, 7 M Mattie, Aunt · 3 Michigan Trust Company · 6 �14 P Pantlind Hotel · 1 R Rankins, Mr. · 7 Raven, A. Amos · 7 St. Alphonsus Church · 11 Steketee, Grandpa · 9 Stonehouse, Mr. and Mrs. · 2 T Thrall, Mrs. · 3 V S Smith, Joe · 2 Villa, Pancho · 12, 13 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5b1dc91a9515f4be79c621c16e3376b.mp3 6d4ba3b295654fa4e89cf173b95042a8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_37Hefferan Title A name given to the resource Hefferan, Herbert Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hefferan, Herbert Description An account of the resource Herbert Hefferan was born on January 16, 1875 in Grand Rapids. He knew Grandpa Stekete and the Herpolsheimers. He worked at Smith & Sanford. He traveled to California and had experiences involving Pancho Villa and John Dillinger's gang. He died in 1972. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b971084849adb5742dcf53da72f90baf.pdf a0e30cddef0ad61227a2aebea666ee66 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Lemuel Serrell Hillman (Dorothy Woodruff) Interviewed on January 29, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #47 (1:06:24) Biographical Information Mrs. Hillman was born Dorothy Woodruff in Auburn, N.Y., 13 January 1887, the daughter of Caroline Porter Beardsley and John Herman Woodruff. She married Lemuel Serrell Hillman on 3 July 1917 in Auburn. She died 13 May 1979 at Porter Hills Presbyterian Village in Grand Rapids. Lemuel Serrell Hillman was born 28 August 1886 at Mt. Vernon, Oneida County, New York. He was the son of William Hillman and Emma Louise Bill. Lemuel was killed 21 February 1930 when an automobile struck him and Mrs. Hillman while they were walking along East Fulton Street in Grand Rapids. The Hillmans had two daughters, Caroline and Hermione, and two sons, Serrell and Douglas. The Hillman‟s home was 330 East Fulton Street from 1919 to 1943. ___________ Interviewer: This is the afternoon of January 29, 1975 I am at Porter Hills Presbyterian Village. I am calling on Mrs. Lemuel Serrell Hillman, who although not a native of Grand Rapids has spent much of her life here, and reared her children here. Mrs. Hillman has recently returned to live in Grand Rapids, and her memory goes back a good many years. Mrs. Hillman, I believe you were born in and brought up near Auburn (New York). Dorothy: Auburn New York, which is a small city, of about thirty-six thousand people. It was a very highly sophisticated and rather wealthy community of old families who really, many of them lived in the grand manner. We always sort of thought of Auburn as sort of, not unlike Long Island, social life. I belong to a very large family, and after I graduated from college and had lived abroad for a year, came home and one of my dearest friends had married Monroe Hubbard, who had been in the high school with us and was a very brilliant young man. And he had gone to Colgate College where he had a very distinguished career, very extremely popular, attractive young man, too. And through him, I met my future husband. I came out to Grand Rapids to visit Betty Gates Hubbard, who had married Monroe Hubbard by this time, and with my dear friend Rosamond Underwood, we were going to (going to) take a great adventure and come west to Grand Rapids to visit Betty, and see what life was like in a place, which we could hardly imagine. Interviewer: Was that before the First World War? �2 Dorothy: Oh no, this was in, yes, of course, it was before the First World War. That must have been in nineteen sixteen, no, January nineteen seventeen that we came out here. Interviewer: Your class was oh-eight at Smith, was it not? Dorothy: No, it was nineteen nine. Interviewer: I‟m sorry, I‟m off a year. Dorothy: Anyway, we came out here to visit and they were very attractive, and they had made great many friends here. Well, we were absolutely stunned by Grand Rapids, we‟d thought, you know, I don‟t know it was my family thought there‟d be an Indian behind every tree. And that it was a very primitive kind of place, and I‟d had a cousin who‟d been out here once and she said, “You know they have wooden sidewalks”. We were prepared for almost anything except what we found. Well, we fell in love with Grand Rapids. These young friends of ours had an apartment upstairs in a house on Paris Avenue. And they‟d made a great many friends, and so they, everybody was what I considered at that time true Western hospitality, entertained us royally all the time. We met a great many people, went to a lot of parties, and had a wonderful time. Now, two rather elderly people, at least I thought they were elderly at that time I‟m sure they weren‟t, Mr. and Mrs. [Frederick] Tinkham, lived across the street [315 Paris] from Betty and Monroe on Paris Avenue, and they‟d become very much interested in them. So they gave a party for us. And we went there, we went Sunday night for supper, and Monroe of course, Monroe was very anxious to have us meet his college roommate whom he had induced to come out to Grand Rapids. And Lem was in a brokerage house working at that time. Oh, what is the name of it? It was in the Old Trust Company. Do you remember what it was? Interviewer: Not offhand. Dorothy: Well, the Grand Rapids, well, I guess it was the Grand Rapids Trust Company or something. Interviewer: Was it in the old Grand Rapids Trust Company? Dorothy: No, it was the regular Grand Rapids Trust Company, now is that what it is, oh no it just blew up. Interviewer: That was the Michigan National Bank. Dorothy: No, well I forget what the name of it was, anyway. Interviewer: You don‟t know which building? Dorothy: Well, it was on Ottawa, and it was in one of the big buildings there. Interviewer: Was it in the Michigan Trust Building? �3 Dorothy: Yes, I guess so, but it probably wasn‟t the Michigan Trust. I think it was the Grand Rapids Trust. Who was the man who owned the Morton Hotel and all that? Interviewer: Mr. Brewer, I think. Dorothy: Yes, well it wasn‟t Mr. Brewer, maybe Mr. Brewer was the president, he might have been, well anyway, so that night, that was when I met Lem Hillman, and we had a delightful evening and I saw a good deal of him, while we were there. Interviewer: Where did Mr. Hillman come from? Dorothy: Well, he came from New York, from outside New York, and he had gone to Prep School in Hamilton, New York, where Colgate University is. Went there for two years, and then he went four years to college, and he really has a spectacular career. He was not very tall and somewhat slight, but extremely muscular, and beautifully coordinated, he was a natural athletic, he did everything well. And he was a superb tennis player, and he was manager of the baseball team, and so on, and also he was captain of the basketball team, although now we think of basketball players as being over six feet, he was so fast on his feet and such a sure shot that he was really a spectacular player. Well, anyway, aside from all that, he was a very, fine student, and graduated Phi Beta Kappa from college. And he‟d gone into the insurance business, [correction] rubber business with his father and in Philadelphia, but his mother died very suddenly and he was so unhappy. He needed a complete change so he, that‟s why he came out and joined Monroe. Well, he didn‟t stay in that brokerage firm very long, and he didn‟t like it. And he went to work with Howe, Snow, Corrigan and Bertles where Monroe was and became a partner in the brokerage house. Well, anyway we were not married until, let me see, June, nineteen seventeen, because I went out to Colorado, the wilds of Colorado to teach school with Rosamond, and we stayed there nearly a year. So then when we came, the war had started, the First World War, when we came home and so Lem enlisted and we were married that June. And Rosamond had become engaged to a young man she met out in Colorado and he, they wouldn‟t enlist him because he was a head of a coalmine out there and they thought he was needed there. But anyway, she was married on the thirtieth of June and I was married on the third of July, and we were in each other‟s wedding, I was her maid of honor and she was my matron of honor, and all our friends came from far and wide. We had a house full of all our old college friends, everybody came. Interviewer: This would be back in Auburn? Dorothy: …in Auburn, this was very gay affair, sort of a last of the old days of that sort. Well, so then we, Lem went right into service and we went, during the war, we lived around in various places. He was never given any, he joined the Navy and he was never given active service much to his disgust, but we lived in Newport, and in Woods Hole, and back to Newport, I think, then finally we came out to Grand Rapids to live in March of nineteen nineteen. And by that time my eldest child had been born, my son named for his father Lemuel Serrell Hillman Jr. And we �4 stayed with Miss Daniels for a while until we could find a place to live. Well, both of us having come from the east, and liking old houses, there was almost nothing to buy, nothing to rent. This was just after the war, there hadn‟t been any building at all; we couldn‟t find a thing. We finally bought an old tumbled down house on the corner of Prospect and Fulton. Well, we were young and not knowing much about it, we spent far too much money fixing up that house, but it really was lovely when it was done, and we lived there for a good many years. Well, by that time…. Interviewer: Let me back up for a minute? Dorothy: I was starting to tell you what I thought about Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Well, I want you to talk about a little about Miss Daniels, because…. Dorothy: Oh, I will tell you about… Interviewer: Could you work that in …. Dorothy: Well, I am going to tell you about Miss Daniels,, my knowledge of early Grand Rapids was gained from Miss Daniels, oh I wish she were here and could tell you the stories she used to tell me. She was born in about eighteen seventy eight, I think, She was a very brilliant woman who graduated from Vassar College. And her father had been superintendent of schools here for many years. Well, of course in those days school teachers were, well, I don‟t think he was paid much, I don‟t believe he earned as much as twenty-five hundred dollars a year probably not, but anyway, he had bought land on Fulton Street and I don‟t know if there was a house on that land when they bought it, probably not, but anyway he largely built that house himself. He had carpenters, whether he had a contractor I don‟t know. But he did a great deal of the building himself and it really a large and lovely house. And especially, they added to it and fixed it up through the years. Well, Miss Daniels had one brother who was older than she. And he didn‟t, when I came to Grand Rapids he had just come back to Grand Rapids to live, he was separated from his wife. And his wife and their children were living out in California, and he came to live with his sister. He was a very extremely, shy, retiring man with a magnificent brain, but it was so sad, he was so shy, he could hardly talk in public at all. And, I think very few people realized what a brilliant man he was. But she certainly was, had a marvelous brain. Well, she told that when she was born in that house that he had built, she said when she was a child one of her chief interests were standing in the front window just before noon, when the train from New York had come into Grand Rapids, and was bringing another load of Dutch immigrants. She said she was absolutely fascinated to watch them. The women went clumping up the street by the house, in their wooden sandals and their pretty white caps with the silver buttons over their ears; and then, the men with their strange looking pantaloons and odd clothes. Well, she was fascinated. Well, that evidently went on for a good many years as the furniture industry expanded in Grand Rapids and needed more and more skilled workman, they imported them from Holland. So that‟s why we became known as such a “Dutch City”, we certainly, we couldn‟t have done better, they have been marvelous citizens, I consider. Of course, the Anglo-Saxons have always had a superior �5 complex, I think, but nevertheless, we, Grand Rapids, has every reason to be proud of these Dutch people to be sure. We think, many of us that they are narrow minded in their religious ideas, but they were very devout people; and that certainly makes wonderful citizens. They owned their own houses very quickly, they kept them up beautifully; they had gardens, flowers. And although even long after I was trying to raise money for various projects, it was awfully difficult to get a nickel out of the Dutch people, because they tithed everything they had, they were very devout church people. And by giving ten percent of their income to the church, you couldn‟t unless they were very rich and many of them became very rich, you couldn‟t expect them to do very much. But I deeply resent any slurs on Grand Rapids as a Dutch community. They do have a great many Dutch people here, Dutch descent, and we‟re very proud of them and we‟re lucky to have them I think. Well, anyway I‟d like to tell you why we bought this old house on Fulton Street. I think a lot of people thought we were crazy, that we should have gone farther out in a newer residential section, but we didn‟t like any of the houses. I tell you we were very conservative, because we both come from regions of old houses, early American types of houses; and that‟s what we wanted, and what we had built as best as we could with the material we started with. But Fulton Street was a beautiful street. It was very wide, of course, much wider than it is now …. and both sides were lined with magnificent elms. Oh, they were gorgeous and they were old and you know when you walked up to Fulton Street from where we lived, from say Lafayette was a steep hill and on an icy day in the winter, and I have to tell you that more than once I had to get down and go up on my hands and knees. One reason was because the roots of these big elms went over into the sidewalks and buckled the sidewalks. Anyway it was a risk to life and limb in bad weather but, oh, it was beautiful. The houses were set back and they were well kept and they were charming. Now there were some old houses across from us, but kitty corner from us on Prospect was the so called mansion built by the founder of the Blodgett fortune here, old Mr. D.A. Blodgett, well I must say we thought it was pretty ugly. It was very Victorian of the period, large stone building, rather ornate, certainly we didn‟t think it was beautiful, but never the less, it was a very substantial and handsome house of its period. Then up next the street, was the, what was the White that built that house? Interviewer: T. Stewart White. Dorothy: Yes, T. Stewart White had built a handsome house. Now that was not of the Victorian type that was fussy, that we disliked so much, this was really a beautiful house. It was decidedly English, was a copy of, in fact, some special house, as I understand, in England that they had seen. Very handsome house, and then on beyond set way back with long wide lawns down to the sidewalks in front was a house that… oh, dear what was Edith Hall‟s mother‟s name? Do you remember? �6 Interviewer: Chase. Dorothy: What? Interviewer: Mrs. Chase. Dorothy: Mr. and Mrs. Chase lived there and next to them, Mr. and Mrs. Shanahan lived. So we knew all these people and they were all proud of their houses and they looked very well., But up the, down below us toward the business section, then next door to us was Mr. Hughart‟s house which was a lovely old house, one of the oldest houses in Grand Rapids, and very handsome and then on beyond that was the large stone house which is now the Women‟s City Club. And next to that, of course, was the present Art Gallery which was a handsome colonial house with columns in that period. So you can see it was a very, substantial, handsome neighborhood and really lovely too with those beautiful trees. Well, the amazing thing to me when I came here to live. I had already seen Grand Rapids and I knew what a lovely city it was, but what I did not know was that it was such a highly cultivated city. It offered such a rich intellectual fare. And I just hope that some of these modern critics about Jerry Ford‟s Grand Rapids could really know what I am talking about. For instance, I lived in France for a year and was very much interested of course, in French, well there was a very active Alliance Françoise here at that period and Mrs. Hughes who had lived in France a large part of her life, taught French and was very active in that. She lived with a cousin Mrs…. Who was that that lived with Mrs. Hughes? Well, I have forgotten her name, but, they had a perfectly beautiful house on up Fulton Street, on beyond where I left off describing the houses, what? Interviewer: Was it Mrs. Swift? Dorothy: Yes, Mrs. Swift, why Lee, you are wonderful. Mrs. Swift and Mrs. Hughes and they lived in a very grand and formal way, I want to tell you. They had a butler and several maids, to be entertained there was really a very sophisticated, elegant experience. Then next to them were Mr. and Mrs. Hollister. Mr. Hollister was president of the Old Kent Bank, a very charming attractive man. Mrs. Hollister I can only describe as a dynamo. I was devoted to her, and she was a remarkable woman with great intelligence, but she was also very determined, very sure she was right and a good many people were not wildly enthusiastic about her, to put it mildly, although they felt indebted to her. We were all indebted to her, she was, had quite a little money, she came from an old family in Massachusetts, let me see, just below Northampton. What is the name of that town? Well, her father was the original maker of thread in this country. She really must have inherited a fortune and also, she was a very accomplished musician. Well, she was very generous and she often subsidized speakers to come here for various things. There was also an extremely active Woman‟s University Club, and they had a large membership. They had plays and lectures and oh, it was a very active club which gave great stimulus to Grand Rapids entertainment and interest. Mr. and Mrs. Hollister had lost a son in the [First] World War in France, so their devotion to France was very great. And Mrs. Hollister was much interested in �7 providing speakers for the Alliance and boosting it and always entertaining them whenever they needed a house, at her house. She always was very generous with her house about everything, very hospitable….remarkable woman. And we had another remarkable woman in Grand Rapids at that period, and that was Mrs. John W. Blodgett. She was a fellow member of the same class as Mrs. Hollister at Vassar. Mrs. Blodgett came before she was married to visit Mrs. Hollister, who was a bride at that time, and that is where she met Mr. Blodgett, so then she came to Grand Rapids to live. She too, was an intellectual. And very much was interested in doing everything she could to foster not only, the intellectual life of Grand Rapids, but the social work life. The family had founded a children‟s home here, the D.A. Blodgett Home for Children. They were very much interested in that and my husband had been treasurer of that home for years and I was put right on the board as members too. We were very much interested in that. Well, Mrs. Blodgett was interested in all worthwhile things. And of course, they had also given Blodgett Hospital in memory of Mr. D.A. Blodgett. So there was a great deal of interest here, by prominent people in elevating the intellectual and cultural life of Grand Rapids. You know, it was jokingly often called the Boston of the Midwest. I hated it that Grand Rapids was called the middle west, the middle west was such a dreadful term in Auburn where I came from, it was sort of the embodiment of hayseed, and Grand Rapids was such a contrast to that, I just had a fit if anybody called it the middle west, of course, it really isn‟t. We definitely aren‟t eastern either even if we are on Eastern Time. Well, anyway that was the Grand Rapids that I knew. And my husband was very active in everything worthwhile in Grand Rapids. And a great leader in every kind of endeavor, social work, church work, intellectual, everything that was going on to better the town and you know it was expected. In a way, it was everybody at that period who had had a good education who had the advantage of going to college was expected to offer a tribute to that education by giving back in service. And they certainly did in those days, and they made Grand Rapids the city that it became. Of course the furniture industry grew like mad and prospered, Grand Rapids became a very rich city and during this period my husband left Howe, Snow, Corrigan and Bertles and went to the Old Kent Bank where he headed their bond department and later became the vice president and their head of investment department. Well, I guess that‟s about enough, Lee? Interviewer: I would like to talk a little more going into the depression perhaps a little bit and talk about your children. Dorothy: About what? Interviewer: Your children, that would be quite interesting, and what happened to you after your husband‟s death; and the Depression and your work with the Red Cross. I think that would be of interest. Dorothy: Of course, this is personal history. We had four children, two sons and two daughters and my husband was killed in an accident, he was run over by an automobile. One night we were, we had had a perfectly terrible winter with very, very deep snow almost impossible to get �8 through the streets in a car and we had a terrible winter very cold. This was late in February, we‟d suddenly had the first sun bright sunny and the snow was thawing. We were going out way Fulton Street as it was then for dinner with Dr. and Mrs. Hodgen. And I said let‟s walk. So we did walk, and that of course was a tragic mistake because we were walking on a country road and on the right side of the road and everything, and we were run into and run down by a drunken man driving, recklessly. My husband pushed me and I landed out in the field. I jumped up unhurt, but he was killed. It was a most awful terrible thing and I, really Grand Rapids as a city was really broken hearted at his loss, because he had the kind of personality that everybody loved. Well, it was necessary in order to save my reason and try to earn a little money to do a little something. Well, I went into the Red Cross, which I must say I didn‟t know anything about either at that time but I was the Executive Director of the Red Cross. Interviewer: About what year would that have been, Mrs. Hillman? Dorothy: That was, well let‟s see Lem died in nineteen thirty, and oh about nineteen thirty-four I guess. My youngest child, my daughter was only three years old, at the time of my husband‟s death; it‟s always been grief to me that she couldn‟t remember him. But the children went to the Fountain Street School, which is an excellent school, such good teachers. And then on to Central High School which certainly there were any number of very remarkable fine teachers. Miss Daniels was the assistant principal, all through these years. Just think how able she was but being a woman she could never be principal. Well, that was one of the sad things of that period. But anyway Serrell went to Deerfield Academy after two years in the high school. I felt that he needed to be under the influence and teaching of men; they would give him something that we could not give him here or at home. I think we probably made a mistake. He was the only person I ever heard of that wasn‟t happy at Deerfield. He didn‟t like it; he didn‟t like anything about it. He was supposed to stay for two years. Well, I went to see him in the middle of the winter, talked to Mr. Boyden who was such a distinguished educator. I said Mr. Boyden, Serrell isn‟t happy here and he wants to finish in one year. Mr. Boyden said we have never had anybody do that, and I said will you let him try it and see if he can do it? And then I said I don‟t know where he should go to college? Of course he is living in the memory of his father whom he adored and he feels he ought to go to Colgate. But I cannot believe that the Colgate is the place for him, at that period the Colgate was dedicated to sports and if there was anyone that was not a sport, it was Serrell. He was the exact opposite of his father in that way. Well, it was a disaster because anyway. So I said to Mr. Boyden what shall I do, where should I send Serrell? Oh, he said, “I think you should send him to Colgate.”Well, that was very poor advice; I never really forgave him for that. Then Serrell only stayed six months at Colgate, he simply hated it. And I went to see him there and he said, “I am coming home.” And I said “You‟re coming home? What are you going to do?” No this was at Deerfield, no that was right. No, he got into Colgate from Deerfield and he said he was coming home. I said, “You wanted to go to Harvard how are you going to get into Harvard? You‟ll lose all your credits.” “No,” he said, “I am going to tutor, I am going back to the high school.” Well, I said, “If you know what you are doing and that‟s what you want.” �9 Well he did finish the two years in one, much to Mr. Boyden‟s astonishment, he got into Colgate and that was another disaster, so then he went to Harvard. He was accepted at Harvard, oh, I will never forget that suspense. He use to run down to the corner, usually in his bathrobe and slippers and couldn‟t wait for the postman. And the postman was so excited waiting for that letter from Cambridge. It was very funny, he would see Serrell running down the street, he would call out to him, no, it hasn‟t come, so he would have to come back and wait for another day. Well, it finally did come. And Caroline and Hermione, my daughter usually called Hermi both graduated from the high school. They were both very good students and they both went on to Smith, much to my delight. Douglas was very blithe about his studies and wasn‟t very interested. And I must say, I didn‟t think he was doing well at all. And I thought he needed to get away from home. He needed discipline I thought, so I sent him to Exeter. Well, he liked it well enough but he didn‟t do well, particularly and I decided that was not a success. I didn‟t know what to do about that so when I went up in June to bring him home, I said, “Now Douglas what are you going to do next year?” He said, “Well I am not going back to Exeter.” I knew very well they probably wouldn‟t take him. “Well, what are you going to do?” And he said, “Oh, I am going back to the high school.” “How, why you have lost a whole year, how are you going to do that? I don‟t know how many credits you will get.” “Oh, I‟m going to tutor.” I said, “Will you be able to catch up to your class?” He said, “Why certainly.” To my amazement he did. He tutored, he caught up with his class, and his class graduated well. His class got high honors at the University of Michigan where they all went, „because they were so well prepared. So then, he went on, went on to university and graduated from there in about a year and a half. The second war came, the Second World War. So he enlisted right away in the Air Corps and he was a pilot, he was just under twenty-one in the period, I guess he wasn‟t twenty-one yet. Well later on he became a pilot of a big B-24 and saw a lot of action. His plane was even shot down in Bulgaria. They were bombing Went(?)Polesti where they had the oil fields to bomb and they were hit and so his plane was quite badly damaged. So Douglas gave the order if anybody wanted to get out, they better do it right away quickly. Well, they all jumped but Douglas and they all got out there and in the meantime the Air Corps had sent a couple of planes to his aid. And they boxed around this injured plane and he was able to get it back to Bari on the Mediterranean coast still going. And so when he got over the airfield there, and when he looked down the whole place was alive with people and ambulances and all kinds of things, so he turned the plane out to sea and jumped. And we he got out he was very, very light and when he got out he didn‟t go down the way he should have. He went to the right and to the left and he thought he was never going to go down. And to his perfect horror he saw his plane had turned around and was coming right at him, he thought he was going to be cut right in two by the plane. Well he couldn‟t steer this chute he was on, but it missed him fortunately, and eventually he got down completely unharmed. And you know, I would like to tell you kind of an interesting story in connection with that. At the last year of the war I left the Red Cross here because I thought I had nothing new to offer. I was very tired I suppose. We were an enormous organization by that time and I felt they needed new ideas and literally I didn‟t have any, so I decided to go down to Washington and work there for awhile with �10 the national organization. The national organization gave me a job and I had a little apartment in Alexandria. And one Sunday morning a knock came to my apartment door and here were two strange young men. They said are you Mrs. Hillman? And I said, yes. Are you Doug Hillman‟s mother? Yes, I am, they said we were members of his crew and we were shot down over Romania and we heard you were here and we thought we would like to come and see you. Well, you can imagine how delighted I was and we became great friends and I saw a great deal of them after that, but they told me this story. They parachuted down and landed in a wheat field and that looked just dandy to them and everything was just fine and they rose up and they found themselves surrounded by a group of soldiers all pointing their guns right at them. They were about to be shot but they finally were able to talk them out of it. I don‟t know how they did it or what language they spoke but they were taken prisoners instead and they had to stay there for the duration of the war. And they said they would have literally starved to death if it hadn‟t been for the Red Cross boxes. You can imagine how thankful I was about that. Well, anyway that‟s the end of that story. Interviewer: Now we are recording… Dorothy: Now ask me what else… Interviewer: Oh, I was going to ask you a question because…About once a year or so and it happened just a week or two again, I am asked to research old houses for the Annual Heritage House Tour and about two years ago your house which is now Van Clair‟s was put on the tour. And they asked me to find out all I could about it. I had a very difficult time, I was able to trace it back to a very early era, at least around the turn of the century, but I wasn‟t able to go much further than that. It is very hard sometimes for people to get everything out of the safety deposit box; you know the original abstract and so forth. And I hate to bother people, so I went as far as I could. I sort of came up to a blank wall and just had to fill in. I did know certain people that lived in your house, for instance Mrs. Curtis, I know lived there. Dorothy: You know, I never knew any farther back then she could tell me. I don‟t think we ever had any abstract, I don‟t remember seeing one. Interviewer: I‟m convinced the house is quite old. Dorothy: Oh, it was a very old house, there isn‟t any doubt about that and one very well built, and we certainly got into a lot of trouble, terrible expense remaking it. We would have spent far less money if we had started from scratch, but we didn‟t know enough to know that. I don‟t know anything more about it. Interviewer: Well, someday we will have to find somebody to, someday we will find someone who knows; we always do. Dorothy: I don‟t know how you think you will? �11 Interviewer: It is funny how things turn up all the time. Dorothy: Well, I hope you can, that‟ll be very nice. Interviewer: I wanted to ask you about your friends, the friends you had with Mr. Hillman, and friends you knew after he died because I think I know who some of them were and I would like you to comment on some of the people that you saw. I am talking not talking about the old people but, about the younger people of your generation. Dorothy: I can‟t do that, I couldn‟t possibly do that, I‟m sorry but you will have to ask other people what they thought about Lem, he was so unusual. Interviewer: I meant for you to talk about yourself. Dorothy: No, I can‟t do it. I couldn‟t possibly do that. Interviewer: We‟re flexible... Would you like to carry on about your children after the war? Dorothy: I don‟t know why you would be particularly interested in that but I would be glad to do that. Caroline graduated from Smith College and she went out to work on a ranch in New Mexico, and was a tutor to a boy and girl twins, the children of a very rich rancher out not far from Santa Fe. He had a perfectly tremendous ranch, one of the biggest in the country. That was a very interesting experience. She did that for one year, and then she went and taught in a girl‟s boarding school, which was outside of Santa Fe. Then when the war came, why she wanted to go, too. So she went abroad with the Red Cross, she went to Washington and went through the induction period there and stayed overseas for about three years and had a very interesting experience. Then she came home, and of course there wasn‟t any opportunity for her in Grand Rapids at that period. There wasn‟t any opening for a girl really unless perhaps she wanted to teach, but she didn‟t. So she…let‟s see at that period…I guess she was thinking about what she could do. At that time, Serrell was in the Life and Time bureau in Chicago and she went over to Chicago to see him and met George Eccle, whom she later married. He was a very brilliant young man who was the New York Times representative in Chicago and he worked in a little office in the Tribune building with another man, and you know that at the end of three years he died of lung cancer. It was a very sad, tragic thing; I thought it was because they both smoked in this tiny little office. Both those men smoked those cigarettes all day long. Anyway he died of lung cancer and it was a terrible thing. And so then Caroline went to New York. She had been living in Chicago but there was nothing for her there and she went to New York, and there eventually went to work for Time magazine. She was there awhile; then she went to a new magazine which had been recently started and which was American Heritage. She became, I don‟t know, I always thought she was general cook and bottle washer there, she did everything, every kind of editorial work, all kinds of things for them. And eventually some years later, oh four or five years later, she married her present husband Ralph Backlund, who was one of the editors of Horizon. After they were married awhile, he was offered a position in the State �12 Department and they moved to Washington. And he was the assistant in the Cultural Affairs Department of the State Department. Well then anyway, when the new President came in, the head of the department didn‟t like what was going on, didn‟t like what was expected of them and the department and he retired. And the President appointed an Italian as head of the bureau, who had no experience whatsoever, then Ralph left too. And then he went to the Smithsonian, where he is now one of the editors of the Smithsonian Magazine. Caroline in the meantime had taken a librarian‟s degree. One of the things she had done for Horizon was to set up a picture library, which made quite a reputation and she realized she had to know more. So she went at night and took a night course up at Columbia and got her degree in Library Science. So when they moved to Washington she got a job with the National Gallery of Art, where she is the Assistant Director. Hermi, in the meantime graduated from Smith, came home to be with me. She lived with me for about a year and she worked down at the art gallery. I must see that she didn‟t stay there looking after me. I persuaded her to go to New York and see if she could find anything interesting, stimulating, really get a job worthy of her abilities. Well, she got a job on the Gallery of Modern Art, but in the meantime she had seen Dan Wickenden, one of Serrell‟s friends that had come to Grand Rapids during the war. I forgot to tell you, that Serrell was not accepted by the draft because he had asthma and this friend of his, Dan Wickenden who had a pen friendship all through Serrell‟s Harvard career. Dan had written a novel, he was older than Serrell. He graduated from Amherst, and had written a successful novel which Serrell had admired very much, so he wrote to Dan and they became great friends through their correspondence. Dan was turned down by the draft too, because of I forgot, some minor reason. He was very unhappy about that. In the meantime Serrell had been married to DuBarry Campau; she was a reporter on the Press as Serrell was at that period. So they were married and they had been married only a few weeks and the Press told DuBarry they had to have her resignation because they had a regulation not to hire married women. Doesn‟t that sound archaic? Interviewer: Yes Dorothy: Anyway she was one of the stars of that paper, she started a wonderful “Judy Jots it Down” column, which was a very witty columnist and reporter. And so they had to do something about that because this was all they had, they had no money whatsoever. So Serrell wrote around and got a job with the Louisville Courier. And so they left and went down to Louisville. After a few weeks I heard from them from New York. I said, “Well what are you doing in New York?” He said, “We couldn‟t stand it down there, we didn‟t like the south, we just hated it. So we came to New York to look for a job.” I said, “How did you get there?” I knew they really had no money. “Oh,” Serrell said, “we sold our bicycles.” They got themselves to New York, and picked up whatever jobs they could do until they finally both landed newspaper jobs and have been in that position ever since. Interviewer: But Hermi and Dan? �13 Dorothy: Well, anyway Dan came and Serrell said we have to leave Grand Rapids so why don‟t you come and I suppose the press will give you our composite jobs. So he came and sure enough, the Press was glad to have him. So he found a room in the old, what was that old, it‟s torn down lately, the old columned house on Washington Street. Next to where Kate Sears used to live. Interviewer: Oh, the Wanty house. Dorothy: No, no. Interviewer: They put columns on it later, that‟s why I say…. Dorothy: Well, anyway in the old house with columns. He had most of his meals at our house. Hermi was only fifteen at that stage and she surely lost her heart to Dan and never looked at another soul. So finally, suddenly he realized she was his sun, moon and stars, they were married very quickly because I wanted them to be married, while George was very ill at that time, Caroline‟s husband. And I wanted them to be married, while it was possible. So they had a very quiet little wedding and were married. And Dan was writing novels at that period and they went to Westport, Connecticut to live. After they had three children, Dan decided he needed a regulation job to keep a family going. So he has been an editor in New York ever since. He is with Harcourt Brace and has been for many years as a literary editor. Interviewer: And Douglas stayed home. Dorothy: And Douglas while he was in the service, no while he was studying for his exams and so forth to be a pilot met Sally Jones. Everybody always laughs and say did you make that up? No, he didn‟t make that up. That apparently was love at first sight, so they became engaged and the minute the war was over, why Douglas rushed out to California to marry Sally. And they came back, and he went to the University of Michigan to finish his education and of course they gave him credit for his years in the service. He graduated the University and went on to the Law School. Then he came to Grand Rapids to practice law, where he now is. And that is the saga of my four children. Interviewer: I think that is very interesting, and now I want to go back to your childhood in Auburn. Were both of your parents natives of Auburn? Dorothy: Oh, yes, you could hardly believe, Auburn would seem archaic now. I have made a lot of tapes of my early life there because it is so different from life today. I knew my children and grandchildren would never believe anything about it, written, spoken a good bit into tapes about that early history. Oh, it was one of the most beautiful cities in those days. It too had very wide streets and arching elms that really practically met over the street and many beautiful houses and as I told you, there was a great deal of money there. A lot of it had been inherited and there were some very profitable manufacturing concerns there. And it was a lovely small city. Oh, dear it doesn‟t look like that now at all, the trees; the elms all got the elm‟s disease. The way they did �14 across New York State. New York State is devastated, you can drive along these country roads and they are lined with dead trees. The farmers won‟t pay to have them taken down or can‟t. Why it is the most ghastly thing. You know, when Auburn was denuded of its trees, the houses in my youth that I thought were so beautiful, most of them were of the wrong period and large and handsome, but not beautiful, most of them. Now those generations, those two generations have gone, the young people have left town, most of them. Those old houses have turned into rooming houses, some of them torn down, not the same place at all. But I do want to tell you that my father started a factory in Auburn, when he went there. Let me see, they were married in eighteen….well, about the late seventies [1870‟s] and he started making composition buttons. Well then that went into typewriter keys from one thing to another and then finally into plastics. We celebrated our hundredth anniversary last year, it was eighteen seventy-three when he went into that business and my nephew is now the president of the Auburn Plastics Company, which is the descendant of his great-grandfather‟s concern, which is quite interesting because it is one thing that has survived in Auburn. We had many big plants there. We had the Osborn family who were really. William H. Seward came from Auburn, a most distinguished citizen. The old mansion where he and his wife lived and brought up their family had been owned by his wife‟s father and it was built in eighteen twenty-five as a gorgeous house of that period. It is open to the public now, and if you are ever near there you must go and see it; and it‟s exactly how it was when Lincoln‟s Secretary of State lived there and there are many interesting mementos of his trips to Europe when he was given personal gifts by heads of state. I remember going into that house when I was a child, by the front door was a perfectly enormous carved bear about four feet high with sticking claws out to hang umbrellas on or something. This thing towered over me and I was absolutely terrified of that thing all during my childhood. My grandfather and grandmother Woodruff lived next door and we were in and out of that house a great deal. And in the garden which is still much the way it was, is an old fashioned summer house, and Secretary Seward was sitting in that summer house when he received the news that he was defeated for the Presidency. And it had been won by an utterly unknown greenhorn from the far west called Abraham Lincoln. Interviewer: and Dorothy: laughter…. Dorothy: Well…. Interviewer: You mentioned the Osborn family? Wasn‟t there a member of…? Dorothy: Thomas Osborn became a great leader and expert in prison reform. His father had started out a little manufacturing business of farming implements. Well, they were very prosperous but along came the International Harvester finally and bought them out for several million dollars. So the Osborn family has always been rich; they were rich before and they are very well to do now. And Mr. Osborn sons bought the Auburn Daily Advertiser as it was in those days. Thomas Osborn great grandson is now President of the Auburn Citizen and it is a very excellent paper for that whole community. �15 Interviewer: It seems to me like one of those Osborns married into the S.F.D. Morse family of California. Dorothy: Yes, he did and they‟re now are divorced. Interviewer: I think I knew Dick Osborn. Dorothy: Yes, he did. I had heard that when I was there last year that they had been divorced. All that generation, I guessed, are divorced. I might tell you a little incident about my family, might interest you. Auburn was started in about eighteen eighteen, I guess. And they had a little sawmill there; a little river that ran through the village. It had been an Indian Village and there was an Indian tribe right near there. A Scotsman by the name of John Muir came to Auburn and prospered. He built a perfectly beautiful stone house, a lovely house. Well, when the Muir family died, may be not, my great-grandfather John Porter bought the house. He was a lawyer at that time; he was a member of the law firm from New York, that tried, where they had that famous trial, where Seward made his name, that Negro trial. Well anyway, my great grandfather bought that house. My grandmother and mother Beardsley were born in that house. My grandmother used to tell me very interesting stories about it. The basement had one of those enormous fireplaces of those days, eight feet wide or ten feet, big enough for a tree. Of course the whole place was surrounded with trees. You could go out and get trees and logs any place. So they always kept a fire going in the basement, and they welcomed the Indians. They kept their side door open all night in case the Indians wanted to come in. They always had an enormous pot of coffee hanging over the fire and they kept the fire going. And they would come in and sleep on the floor in their blankets and drink coffee. My grandmother said as a child she used to look out the window and see Indians shuffling by the house and going down the street wrapped in their blankets. And then anyway, after my great grandfather‟s death and his wife‟s death, the John Porters, the house was sold to a Mister John Rice. Later on my oldest brother Carlton married Mary Rice and they were married in the drawing room of that beautiful, beautiful old house, where my grandparents had been married and where my grandmother and my mother had been born, was a very interesting thing. An interlocking of the two families and later on my brother and his wife and children went over to the big house to live and they added on and fixed it up, and it was a beautiful house and still is. One of the Osborn boys, one of the descendants lives there now. He married a girl from Boston and they have six children, I guess they loved that big house. That was quite interesting. By and large, Auburn like every other place in the country is very, very different, these days. There were a great, for instance, a great many Victorians in Auburn. Now a small city of thirty-six thousand you wouldn‟t expect elegance like that quite number like the coachman, the man on the box and livery, a highly sophisticated elegant society. You can see why they thought I was coming out to be thrown to the Indians. Interviewer: Well, you‟ve survived and it has been a delightful afternoon. I appreciate your giving us your time. �16 Dorothy: I had no intention of making any personal remarks, about my family or anything. I am a little upset about that… Interviewer: Well, I think you have a remarkable and interesting family and that your children, immediate family have been born and brought up in Grand Rapids. They have had interesting careers in all instances. Dorothy: Well, they all love Grand Rapids. We all love it, and I‟m so happy to come back here now to live at Porter Hills, it is a wonderful place and I am lucky to be back here. Interviewer: We look forward to many more years of enjoyment. Dorothy: I don‟t know how many more….Anyway, I am very happy here. I have a good many old friends and I love it. Happy to be back in Auburn, I mean in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Grand Rapids, you mean. We will turn it off. INDEX A Alliance Françoise · 6 American Red Cross · 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 Art Gallery · 6 Auburn Citizen · 14 Auburn Daily Advertiser · 14 Auburn Plastics Company · 14 B Backlund, Ralph · 11 Blodgett Hospital · 7 Blodgett, Mr. · 7 Blodgett, Mr. D.A. · 5 Blodgett, Mrs. John W. · 7 Boyden, Mr. · 8, 9 Brewer, Mr. · 3 D D.A. Blodgett Home · 7 Daniels, Miss · 4, 8 Deerfield Academy · 8 E Eccle, George · 11 Exeter · 9 F Ford, Jerry · 6 Fountain Street School · 8 G C Grand Rapids Trust Company · 2 Central High School · 8 Chase, Mr. and Mrs. · 6 Colgate · 1, 3, 8, 9 H Hall, Edith · 5 Harcourt Brace · 13 Harvard · 8, 12 �17 Hillman, Caroline · 9, 11, 12, 13 Hillman, Douglas · 9, 13 Hillman, Hermi · 9, 12, 13 Hillman, Hermione · 9 Hillman, Lem · 2, 3, 8, 11 Hillman, Serrell · 3, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13 Hodgen, Dr. and Mrs. · 8 Hollister, Mr. and Mrs. · 6 Hollister, Mrs. · 6, 7 Howe, Snow, Corrigan and Bertles · 3, 7 Hubbard, Betty & Monroe · 2 Hubbard, Betty Gates · 1 Hubbard, Monroe · 1 Hughes, Mrs. · 6 J Jones, Sally · 13 L Lincoln, Abraham · 14 M Michigan Trust Building · 2 Morse, S.F.D. · 15 Muir, John · 15 P Porter, John · 15 R Rice, John · 15 Rice, Mary · 15 S Seward, Secretary · 14 Seward, William H. · 14 Shanahan, Mr. and Mrs. · 6 Smith College · 11 Swift, Mrs. · 6 T Tinkham, Mr. and Mrs. Frederick · 2 U Underwood, Rosamond · 1, 3 University of Michigan · 9, 13 V N Vassar College · 4 New York Times · 11 W O Old Kent Bank · 6, 7 Osborn family · 14 Osborn, Dick · 15 White, T. Stewart · 5 Wickenden, Dan · 12 Woman‟s University Club · 6 Women‟s City Club · 6 Woodruff · 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1519fc7ec75c626f0b76cf4a523a9b46.mp3 524caec1e54c03977ed8bb7067a12556 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_47Hillman Title A name given to the resource Hillman, Dorothy Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hillman, Dorothy Description An account of the resource Dorothy Woodruff was born in Auburn, New York on January 13, 1887. She graduated from Smith College in 1909. In 1916 she and fellow Smith alumna Rosamund Underwood traveled to Colorado to teach at the Elkhead School. She married in 1917, and came to Grand Rapids in 1918. In 1936 she became the Executive Secretary of the American Red Cross in Grand Rapids and she served the Red Cross in Washington, D.C. during WWII. The Hillmans had two daughters, Caroline and Hermione, and two sons, Serrell and Douglas. Dorothy died on May 13, 1979. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4739087d25646afe11f960274d98adae.pdf e0c2f966821d4dc5f073ab25b4029a09 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. John Hodgen Interviewed on October 4, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #29 (26:43) Biographical Information Ruth A. Grinnell was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 26 September 1890. She was married to Dr. John T. Hodgen in Grand Rapids on 28 January 1921. Her husband, John was the son of Harry A. Hodgen and Agnes H. Hart and he was born in 1884 at Rye Beach, Rockingham County, New Hampshire. Ruth was Secretary-Treasurer of Grinnell-Row Company for 62 years. Her death occurred 2 March 1978. Her husband preceded her in death in 1954. Ruth Grinnell’s father was Charles L. Grinnell born in August 1857 in Grand Rapids. His death occurred in July 1925. Her mother was Meena Baker, born in Canada about October 1860. Her death occurred in September 1931. Ruth’s brother, Henry L. Grinnell died in Reed City in October 1932. The mother of Charles Grinnell was Henrietta Squier. He was grandson of John Wickliff Squier who built the Squires Opera House that operated in Grand Rapids from 1859 until it burned in 1872. ___________ Interviewer: This interview with Mrs. John Hodgen was recorded on October fourth, nineteen seventy-one….. (put this on the floor.) You were saying you were born in Grand Rapids. Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, I was born in Grand Rapids and my father was born in Grand Rapids, Charles Lawrence Grinnell. And my brother was born in Grand Rapids, Henry Lawrence Grinnell, Olive Grinnell Merrell. And then my Grandfather [John W.] Squier built the first opera house in Grand Rapids which was Squire’s Opera House down on Monroe and it turned into the Grand Opera House finally. And that, I remember that, don’t you? Do you remember it? Interviewer: No. Mrs. Hodgen: Anyway, it was still in existence some years ago and then my Grandfather Grinnell built the Grinnell Block and it was one of the first sprinklered buildings in Grand Rapids, at the corner of Monroe and Crescent. Interviewer: It was a sprinkler building? �2 Mrs. Hodgen: Yes. It was sprinklered afterwards and it was one of the first sprinklered buildings downtown, so they told me anyway. Interviewer: What does that mean, sprinklered? Mrs. Hodgen: Well, it was the sprinkler system all through the building and if it caught fire the sprinklers worked. It was one of the first buildings in Grand Rapids and it was occupied by Wurzburg’s store for a great many years. And then when Wurzburg’s moved on into the Fuller Building which was built before they moved up on Monroe Street, let’s see here…Say Eloise, do you remember who were the people that were in the Grinnell Block Building, a men’s, men’s and boy’s store? Eloise: I know who you mean but I can’t think of the name. Wasn’t it George Booth…wasn’t in there was him on Monroe Street afterwards? Not the MBM? Afraid I couldn’t help you. Mrs. Hodgen: Well, then that’s terrible, because they bought the building…. And they owned it when it was torn down for the complex in there. Interviewer: Was that on the east side of the street? Mrs. Hodgen: It was on the corner of Monroe and Crescent, on the east side of the Monroe and Crescent. Interviewer: I don’t remember who that was either. But that’s, that’s not important exactly who was there. Mrs. Hodgen: Isn’t it? Interviewer: No, that’s alright. Mrs. Hodgen: Then the house on College Avenue was built, about eighty-two or three years ago. And is still is in very good condition. But that’s apartments, two or three apartments in it, I think now. Interviewer: Whereabouts is that house? Mrs. Hodgen: Forty-five North College, it’s in that Hill District there, between Fountain and Fulton. That was the loveliest part of Grand Rapids that many years ago. Interviewer: You grew up there as a child? Mrs. Hodgen: Yes. Interviewer: What was it, what was it like, growing up in that neighborhood? �3 Mrs. Hodgen: Well, it was just perfect, I mean everybody knew everybody else and it was beautiful houses all lovely houses in there and everybody went to Fountain Street School in those days. All the people belonged to the Gamma Delta Tau Sorority in the high schools would walk every Saturday night to Gamma Delta Tau Town meeting if you could believe it now. All the girls walked alone to that meeting. And everybody was interested in what everybody else was doing and it was perfectly delightful neighborhood to belong to. In fact, you knew everybody in the block and the next block and the next block. Interviewer: Was that a paved street then... College Avenue? Mrs. Hodgen: It was paved ever since I can remember it. But I remember after school we all used to, all used to catch bob-sleds first to home and take off our good clothes and put on old clothes and catch and catch bob-sleds. Interviewer: What were the bobs used? Mrs. Hodgen: Well, they were delivery wagons on, on a delivery wagons that had runners, I mean on bobs. We used to that was one of the things, and then I remember going out to the Wilcox’s, the Wilcox’s lived across the street and all that property there which was their farm. And… Interviewer: The one on Lake Drive? Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, on Lake Drive, that was their farm and then we used to go over to the end of the street car line then walk out to their farm for Saturdays. It was a farm. Interviewer: How far did their land, extend out there? How big of a farm was it? Mrs. Hodgen: Oh, I don’t know. It was all the property that they have now out there. All, Mrs. Wilcox gave the children their five houses out there now. And some of the Wilcox family, one of the Wilcox family I think, there’s one of them still lives there on the property. Interviewer: Who, which Wilcox is that, do you know off hand? Mrs. Hodgen: Well her, name isn’t Wilcox, she’s Mrs. Perkins, Mrs. Voigt Perkins was a Wilcox. Interviewer: OK. Mrs. Hodgen: She’s the only one that lives out there. Interviewer: I think she’s, they use that old house, the little old cottage. Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, she does. Interviewer: When you’d go out to that farm on Saturdays what …? �4 Mrs. Hodgen: Well, we used to ride the donkey and play on the way kids do on a farm. Interviewer: Was Lake Drive there at that time? Was that a street? Mrs. Hodgen: Well it was a street but we went, we went to the end of the car line and out there then walked the rest of the way. Interviewer: Where did that carline run? Did that, did that run along Wealthy Street? Mrs. Hodgen: Well, I would say it ran along, yes, I think it ran up Wealthy. It went Cherry to Wealthy. Interviewer: Then you’d walk up….? Mrs.Hodgen: Walk out from the end of the car-line. It went by, by the car barns there by that time, the car barns is on Wealthy now, isn’t it? Interviewer: Was, when you get off at Wealthy was, was that, did you get off where the Old Kent Country Club was? Mrs. Hodgen: No, that’s on Plymouth in and, that’s on Plymouth and Wealthy, isn’t it? No, to tell you the truth I don’t know where, I don’t remember where we got off. You see I have a very, I’m not. I can’t remember anyone’s name. That, and annoys me so not to think of that store that everybody knows in town, if fact I’m not sure that’s still in business. Interviewer: They are still in business somewhere else? Mrs. Hodgen: Well they’re up on Monroe, up, Upper Monroe, for a long time. I don’t know. Of course just as soon as you go, I’ll probably remember it. Interviewer: Did you go to college? Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, I went to, I graduated from high school and I went to Wellesley College. And then I came back here and was treasurer and president of our organizations and I went back and took a post-graduate course at Simmons and came to the office and I’ve been in the office fifty seven years. Here at Grinnell….Company. Interviewer: Who started the business, did you…? Mrs. Hodgen: My grandfather. Henry Grinnell and my father was in it, Charles Grinnell and then I came into it and then my brother had, Henry Grinnell came into it and he was killed in an automobile accident when he was only 38 years old. I’ve been here every since. In fact we have our hundredth anniversary in, in seventy-five. Interviewer: It’s always been selling insurance? �5 Mrs. Hodgen: Yes. It was Henry Grinnell and Son. It’ll be a hundred years old in seventy-five it’s over ninety years old now. Interviewer: Was your brother Henry older or younger than you? Mrs. Hodgen: He was younger. Interviewer: How long ago was that automobile accident that he was in? Mrs. Hodgen: I can’t tell you… a great many years ago. The family are all, all married and that, I don’t know whether you know [Henry’s daughter] Sally (Verney?) Do you know Sally (Virney?) Priscilla Miller was his wife. (?) is now Priscilla Miller. Interviewer: No, I don’t know them. Mrs. Hodgen: And [Henry’s daughter] Mary Swain, do you know the Swain’s? Interviewer: No. Mrs. Hodgen: Well, Sally’s married now to Herb Boschoven who’s one of the vice-presidents of the bank here. And Mary’s married to Bob Swain. Interviewer: I know… Mrs. Hodgen: Do you? Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Hodgen: My niece Sally Grinnell just married Herb Boschoven, a couple of weeks ago. Interviewer: I think I saw something in the paper about that. Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, they both were…. Interviewer: His daughter is Nancy? Mrs. Hodgen: Nancy’s the one she, she is with the State Department over in Thailand now, I think. Interviewer: We went to the same high school together. Mrs. Hodgen: Yes. Interviewer: What was, what was insurance like when they first started the business? Did it operate on the same principles that it operates today? Or was it….? �6 Mrs. Hodgen: Everything, everything was done by hand, then there weren’t any machinery and everybody I remember my father used to go down and deliver every policy. And it was just the way change, everything has changed from a family affair to machines. Interviewer: Who were some of the people that lived on your block? Mrs. Hodgen: Well, the Steketee’s, we were surrounded by Steketee’s . The old original Steketee there is Paul Steketee lived on the corner, around the corner, and Dan Steketee ,one of the sons lived on the corner of College and Fountain and John Steketee lived two houses from that and Paul Frederick lived next to us and Paul Steketee, senior lived on the other side of us around the corner on the corner of, the house is still there, Fulton and Prospect, Peter Steketee lived. In the next block the Putnam’s, Putnam house was a Lew[is] Withey house and the Waters, all the Waters’ property was the next lot down. And the Cole house which Howard Sherman, Howard Sherman still lives at the corner of Fulton and College is still, they still live there. The Waters’ house is torn down, the Putnam house is, and the Wilcox house, which is now the YWCA building. In fact I, remember somebody coming and telling me that if you ever wanted to be in Grand Rapids that you had to live in the property bounded by Union, Cherry, Lafayette and (Union) Fountain. They were all in that little district. Everybody that you knew lived in there. Interviewer: What was, what was that group considered? Were they considered the society of the town? Mrs. Hodgen: I would say so, they knew us…Yes. Interviewer: Is there a society today, right now? Mrs. Hogden: No. Interviewer: Why do you think that is? Mrs. Hodgen: Everything has changed, I mean all you have to do is to, of course in those days when the, all you have to do is go out to clubs like the Kent Country Club and that you. In the years when the country club was started Mr. J.C. Holt, Mr. J.C. Holt was probably a very prominent person … he was considered very high brow at the time and they started, and my father and other people to the country club. And you knew everybody out there. Now you go out there and don’t know anybody. I mean it’s just different people have taken over the different things, that’s all. There is no society like there was. The old timers, we often laugh about it, reading the Sunday society news and don’t know a soul in it. Well, it’s just changed that’s all. Everywhere. Interviewer: What were, what, what were the characteristics of society in those days that might not be characteristic of society today? Mrs. Hodgen: Elegance. �7 Interviewer: Can you tell me about that? Mrs. Hodgen: No, I can’t tell you about it. I mean everybody, everybody had a party in their own house you had everybody, everybody had loads of help and it was very dignified, very lovely and all the young people if you weren’t there at seven o’clock, they sat down without you and you, they used to the country club, if anybody, if anybody drank at the country club they wouldn’t be invited again. Interviewer: So there was very little liquor ever served at parties and stuff? Mrs. Hodgen: Very, just none. I don’t ever remember any when I was young. Interviewer: What was the most elegant party you ever went to? Mrs. Hodgen: Well, everybody used to have at Christmas time when they came home for vacation, everybody had a party. The Bissell’s always had a terribly beautiful party. And Mrs. Lowe always had a beautiful party. Those were the two I remember. Perfectly beautiful ones in Mrs. Lowe’s house which is now Aquinas College. That was their house and they lived there. Interviewer: Can you describe the parties to me, can you describe how they were, how they went. Mrs. Hodgen: I don’t remember one thing now, I haven’t any idea. Interviewer: What did people wear? What kind of outfits? Mrs. Hodgen: Very beautiful and very beautifully made. Everybody had a home dressmaker or a dressmaker. And they were very, very elegant, beautiful material and elegant. Interviewer: What about the men? What did they wear? Mrs. Hodgen: Tuxedos, I think they wore tuxedos. But I suppose different than they are now I don’t know, I don’t see them anymore. Interviewer: Were these, were these parties dinner parties or were they dances? Mrs. Hodgen: Dinner parties. Dinner and dance, yes. Interviewer: How many people would attend a dinner like that? Mrs. Hodgen: fifty or a hundred I don’t know one-hundred in the house, fifty at least. I mean all the young people, I mean there were younger, there were Bissell’s children and another thing that they did now is call. You properly, you weren’t invited again if you didn’t make a party call on anybody. You went around and had calling cards and made a party call on everybody or you weren’t invited to the next party. Interviewer: What’s a party call? �8 Mrs. Hodgen: Just going and thanking them for the party and making, make a calling on people. I mean they called them party calls then. Interviewer: If you were going to a party out at the Lowe’s, which was, I imagine out in the country then wasn’t it? Mrs. Hodgen: That’s where Aquinas College is, that was their house. The main part of the college that they used for the main building was the whole house. All that property the Aquinas owns now was the Lowe, was the Lowe property. Beautiful gardens and very elegant I mean. There was a great deal of help. Everybody had a great deal of help. There wasn’t anybody without help. You entertained in your house. Everybody entertained at home. In the, I guess the Saint Cecilia was in existence then, that was a very prominent place. And there was a German Club, which my mother was the president of all its existence which was a very, very interesting organization; and there was a French Club; the Ladies Literary Club; Women’s University Club which was started under Mrs. Clay Hollister’s who was one of the very prominent people in town. Somebody who can remember much about her, she was a great friend of Mrs. [Charles] Bender’s mother. The [Willard F.] Keeney’s were very prominent people. All the pop, all the people that were prominent then were, there were very few of them in existence even now. There aren’t any of the Lowe family here. John J. Blodgett is the only one of the Blodgett family here. There aren’t any of the Lew Withey family, well, one , maybe the younger Withey I don’t know where he comes in somewhere. Very few of the old families are left. Interviewer: What happens to families….? Mrs. Hodgen: What happens to what? Interviewer: What happens to families like that that are very prominent and have a lot of money and then suddenly they disappear? Mrs. Hodgen: Well, I think most of the Withey’s have died off. Most of the Waters family, I mean Tom Waters just died, the Waters family, they were, they were very well known in town, and had their estate there, used to be called an estate there on the corner of College and Fulton. Oakhurst, they call it, and the Barnhart family. There are few, there’s Helen Barnhart ,…. Only few of those left. Oh, I don’t, I don’t know if there are very many of them left. That’s all. Interviewer: Who was Edmond Lowe? Mrs. Hodgen: Who was what? Interviewer: Who was Edmond Lowe Mrs. Hodgen: Edward Lowe? Interviewer: Edward Lowe? �9 Mrs. Hodgen : Edward Lowe was the one that was, who was, he gave Butterworth Hospital or Butterworth or Edward and Susan Blodgett Lowe I mean. Edward Lowe, I think, I don’t know what, I don’t know what business he was in but he was married to Sue, Mrs. Blodgett, Susan Blodgett was the listed as the foundation of Butterworth Hospital, Edward and Susan Lowe Foundation or foundations for at Butterworth Hospital. And I don’t know anything about the Butterworth’s, but the Butterworth’s were very prominent people a long time ago. One of them gave Butterworth Hospital. Of course, the Blodgett family were a very, very prominent family that gave Blodgett Hospital. Interviewer: They, they actually just gave the hospital, and they built it themselves. Mrs. Hodgen: To start with, yes. Blodgett Hospital was given, or Butterworth was given by the Butterworth family to start with and Blodgett Hospital was given by the Blodgett family to start with, that’s, the reason they’re named after them. Of course, a great many people have contributed a great deal since. What they gave then would be just be a minor amount of what it takes to run a hospital now but they were the ones who started the hospitals. Oh, I don’t know, I’m not fair, there’s so many more, there were so many prominent people, well, well known people in town. But, like all older people, you forget everything. Interviewer: Why, why did you day that J.C. Holt was the high brow? Mrs. Hodgen: ‘Cause he was. Everybody knows…. Interviewer: What, what does that mean exactly? Mrs. Hodgen: Very exclusive. They lived on Lafayette Street and, and anybody he didn’t want in the Kent County Country Club, he would keep out. He wouldn’t let belong to the Kent Country. Interviewer: How could he do that? Mrs. Hodgen: Because he was boss, that’s why. I don’t know how he did it but he did. That was the reputation everybody had from him. You ask any of the old people, older people who, knew the Holt family and all and they know that’s the reputation he had all over town. Interviewer: Are they still here? Mrs. Hodgen: No, there isn’t a single one of the family left. Tom Holt, John Holt, .Bill Holt, Kate Holt and Harry Holt, all those families have all, they all, none of them in Grand Rapids anymore. The [W. O.] Hughart family was another prominent family, they don’t live in, there’s none of the Hughart’s live in town anymore. They owned the house at the corner of Fulton and Lafayette there where the insurance building is now. Mr. [John S.] Lawrence lived across the street from there. He was a very well known person in town. He used to have Sunday afternoon readings, use to read to people on every Sunday afternoon. Interviewer: Used to what? �10 Mrs. Hodgen: Used to have a read, read good books to people Sunday afternoons. Sunday Afternoon Reading Club, I guess you’d call it. Sunday afternoons. And then the Howard O’Brien’s lived across the street, I mean out there on Lafayette Street. And he was the Ambassador to Japan. Not the Howard O’Briens, what was his name? His [Thomas J. O’Brien’s] son was Howard O’Brien. Then the [Charles S.] Hazeltine’s and, some of that that family are still here. Karl Montgelas? The Hazeltine’s were very prominent people. They live on, big house on John Street. Hazeltine and Perkins Drug Company. I can tell you families that were prominent in those days but I can’t tell you much about them. Fanny Hazeltine was the one who married Count [Adolph] von Montgelas when she was visiting Mr. O’Brien who was the ambassador to Japan, to Japan. Interviewer: Count Montgelas? He was a count? Mrs. Hodgen: He was. Do you know who Karl Montgelas is in town? Karl Montgelas is their son. Interviewer: Who? Mrs. Hodgen: Karl Montgelas. Interviewer: Is whose son? Mrs. Hodgen: Mrs. Fanny Hazeltine and Count Montgelas. more than I did, she’s younger than I am. Jo? [Josephine Bender] remembers Interviewer: Well, everybody has like different reminisces and remembers different kinds of things and a lot of things that she remembered are different things than you might remember. Mrs. Hodgen: Oh really? Interviewer: Yes. Mrs.Hodgen: Well she was younger, she was a bit younger than I am. I think she was nearer my, my brothers age. She was between us, I guess, my brother was four years younger than I. She was just between us. She went to Vassar and I went to Wellesley. We were the same vintage; we’d all go to the same parties and everything together. Interviewer: Why did most of the girls here go up to Eastern schools that went to college? Mrs. Hodgen: That was the thing to do. Nobody went to Michigan. Michigan was looked down on in my day and age; I didn’t know anybody who went to the University of Michigan. That was, Vassar was very prominent, I was there only, Miss Mary Hefferan of the [Thomas W.] Hefferan family here were very prominent people in town. Mr. Hefferan was the president of the bank. Both Hefferan’s were presidents of the bank. And Miss Mary Herfferan was the first person from �11 Grand Rapids who ever went to Wellesley. I think and I was about the second person. Nobody went to Wellesley in those days it was considered high, too high brow. Everybody went to Vassar, in fact Grand Rapids is a great, great Vassar community. Interviewer: Why was it considered high brow? Mrs. Hodgen: Oh, it was considered too hard. I mean it was considered too difficult, I mean it was, well they used the word greasy-grind. I think that everybody that went to Wellesley was greasy, a greasy-grind. Interviewer: Well. Mrs. Hodgen: Well, that’s all I know. I don’t know what good that does you. INDEX Aquinas College · 7, 8 Hefferan Family · 11 Hollister, Mrs. Clay · 8 Holt, J.C. · 7, 10 Hughart Family · 10 B K Barnhart Family · 9 Bender, Josephine · 8, 11 Bissell Family · 7, 8 Blodgett Family · 8, 9 Blodgett, John J. · 9 Boschoven, Herb and Sally · 5 Kent Country Club · 4, 6 A L Ladies Literary Club · 8 Lowe, Edmond · 9 Lowe, Mrs. · 7, 8 F Fountain Street School · 3 Frederick, Paul · 6 M Montgelas Family · 10, 11 G Gamma Delta Tau Sorority · 3 German Club · 8 Grinnell, Charles Lawrence (Father) · 1, 4, 6, 7 Grinnell, Henry (Grandfather) · 4, 5 Grinnell, Henry Lawrence (Brother) · 1, 4, 5, 11 H Hazeltine Family · 10, 11 P Perkins, Mrs. Voigt · 3, 10 S Saint Cecilia Music Society · 8 Sherman, Howard · 6 Squier, John W. (Grandfather) · 1 Squier’s Opera House · 1 �12 Steketee Family · 6 W U Waters Family · 6, 9 Wellesley College · 4, 11, 12 Wilcox Family · 3, 6 Withey Family · 6, 8, 9 University of Michigan · 11 V Vassar College · 11 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/67aad407a29d5f56b4ec2b803dc8a4ec.mp3 3936df59b82bb3c11f12c7c92bcd4059 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_29Hodgen Title A name given to the resource Hodgen, Ruth Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hodgen, Ruth Description An account of the resource Ruth Grinnell was born in Grand Rapids in 1890. She graduated from Vassar College. In 1921, she married Dr. John Hodgen. She was the Secretary-Treasurer of Grinnell-Row Company for 62 years. She was involved with St. Cecilia's, the Ladies Literary Club, and the Woman's University Club. She died on March 2, 1978. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/715b8df24c4015422ac94ed6a17edba0.pdf 1262444b551bc9ac4117f8debdd2b219 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC- 23 Mr. David Hunting Interviewed November 12, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 35 (1:00:00) Biographical Information David Dyer Hunting was born in Grand Rapids 26 August 1892. He was the son of Edgar W. Hunting and Grace Emma Dyer. David died in Grand Rapids on 19 April 1992 and was buried in Woodlawn Cemetery. David Hunting married Mary V. Ives in Ann Arbor, Michigan on 25 May 1925. Mr. Hunting was one of the founders of Metal Office Furniture Company which is now Steelcase, Inc. Edgar, David’s father was born about August 1862 in Grand Haven, Michigan. Grace Dyer was born about May 1869 in Missouri. They were married in 1891. ___________ Interviewer: Were you born in Grand Rapids Mr. Hunting? Mr. Hunting: I was born in Grand Rapids on College Avenue between Wealthy and Cherry in eighteen ninety-two. At that time, there were no houses between College Avenue and Madison and there was a diagonal walk or path that ran across the two lots and across Morris Avenue to the corner of Madison which we used to go to and from the Wealthy Avenue School at Lafayette Street. Interviewer: That school, that school’s still there, isn’t it? Mr. Hunting: The school is still there. It’s been remodeled somewhat but, that was a school that served the entire area, that I grew up and played in. Interviewer: Were there, were there other houses in this block that you lived in? Mr. Hunting: At that time there was a Tetium house on the corner of Cherry and College and the Shaw house on College Avenue and between the Shaw house and Wealthy Street there was only one other house which was later occupied by the D.C. Scribner family. On the east side of College Avenue, there were several houses. The street was pretty well built up from Cherry Street down to the middle of the block. There was the Wilson house, the Gilbert house, the Maddox house, the Twing house, the Hunting house, the Waddell house and the Murray house. Those were all practically along in succession. And then further down were some other houses. When I was growing up, and was going to school there were forty-one children on that block. Interviewer: Did, did all the children know each other, play with each other? �2 Mr. Hunting: Oh, we played together constantly. Other Man: Tell them about the black girl you grew up with. Mr. Hunting: About what? Other Man: The black girl that you grew up with, that little black girl, the only one who could recite the poetry as well as you could. Mr. Hunting: Yeah. Interviewer: What’s her name? Mr. Hunting: Theola Ford. At that time, Paris Avenue was pretty well built up too and the Wilcox family moved from their farm out on Lake Drive into the city for the winter and took a house on College Avenue directly behind the Murray house. The other families lived along on Paris that we grew up with were the Palmer family, the Wilcox family, the Shank family, the Seymour family, and we all played together. Also the Spencer and Baker families were there. One of the things I most remember was building a cave in a vacant lot opposite us. As a boy we had a big table over there which served as a headquarters for a group of boys with a long tunnel exit to a clump of trees so we could escape if we were trapped in the cave. That was the type of activity that we seemed to have. And I remember at the time of the Spanish American War we were greatly discussing, among ourselves, what we would do if we were in Cuba or if Cubans invaded Grand Rapids, Michigan. Interviewer: What was this, that John mentioned to us, young black girl, Theola Ford. Mr. Hunting: Oh, going through school, at Wealthy Street, Miss Blanchard taught the first grade and Miss Martine the second grade, Miss Cole the fourth grade, and there at that time was only one black girl in school and she was the daughter of Joe Ford, the passenger agent, assistant porter down there. Theola Ford, and she was probably the brightest girl in the class. I remember one of our second grade requirements was to learn Hiawatha and she could recite the entire poem of Hiawatha verbatim. We always had a terrific competition between Theola Ford and myself, eee who could remember the longest portions. Interviewer: What ever happened to her? Mr. Hunting: I don’t know, I don’t know. She moved out of town. I don’t know. She went all the way through grammar school and then to high school with distinguished marks. Interviewer: Were there, were there very many black people in the city at that time? Mr. Hunting: Very few. But the ones that were there we all knew, and were very friendly with. Weren’t very many. �3 Interviewer: Did they, did they have a neighborhood of their own? Mr. Hunting: There wasn’t any particular neighborhood. It was mostly down on Sheldon between Wealthy and Franklin, and perhaps a very few across Division street but very few. Interviewer: What did you remember the first time you ever saw an automobile? Mr. Hunting: Yes, the first, about the first one, I had much familiarity with was when the Russell family, who lived out at Comstock Park bought a Ford and that was when I was in grade school. And I used to ride in that car with Fran Russell a good deal. Then the Keeler family bought a Lozier with chain drive and Mr. Will Gay bought a White Steamer, which rode up and down College Avenue and the Austin family started to develop a car called the Austin, which was an assembled car with coachwork mostly supplied locally but a very well regarded car. Always in white with brown trim. And for quite a while the Austins were a recognized automobile made in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Where was that factory located? Mr. Hunting: That was on Division Street, between Cherry Street and Oakes, I believe. Right in that area somewhere. It no longer stands. I completed the eighth grade in Wealthy Street School and went into the old Central High School on the corner of Ransom and Lyon. We went at morning and afternoon to that school walking from College Avenue to Lyon Street and Ransom, four times a day. And then playing football we would leave the school in the afternoon and go to the old YMCA building, change in our football clothes, walk across Pearl Street Bridge to a vacant lot where there is a freight boarding station now, along Fulton and Front Street, practice there till six o’clock, walk back to the Y, take a shower, walk home up State Street hill to College Avenue. Interviewer: It’s a little different than today, isn’t it? Mr. Hunting: I imagine, I imagine we got more exercise walking than most people do today playing football. Interviewer: Were sports very important at that time in school? Mr. Hunting: Yes, we had a good sport activity. We had, our big game was with Muskegon. We played Benton Harbor, Kalamazoo, and in basketball we had a very good team and played in the YMCA gymnasium, and had a long season of basketball. Interviewer: What, what was this neighborhood that you grew up in? Was this a neighborhood of well-to-do families? Mr. Hunting: Well, I wouldn’t say they were well-to-do, but that were comfortably well-off. There were no very wealthy families there as I regarded at the time at least we weren’t conscious �4 of any, any distinction of that kind in that entire neighborhood. But up, we did feel that up on the Lafayette hillside area the more wealthy families had their home like the Hazletine's and the Holt’s and the Hollister's and the Lowe's and the Blodgett’s. Interviewer: So they, they lived all up on the, in the, what’s a really the hill district up on Fountain and Lafayette and that area? Mr. Hunting: That’s right. Interviewer: Did, did the children in your neighborhood, the forty-one children in your neighborhood associate with the children in the Hill district? Mr. Hunting: Oh yes. Interviewer: So there wasn’t any discrimination of… Mr. Hunting: No, feeling any way. The Bundy family, the White family all had children, we played tennis a lot together and saw each other quite a little bit. Interviewer: Were there very many parties when you were growing up? Mr. Hunting: There were a lot of parties and they were quite formal parties and Mrs. Bissell always gave a dance in the evening during Christmas vacation for all the young people. That was one of the big events we looked forward to at Christmas time. Interviewer: Then that was a formal affair? Mr. Hunting: That was formal, and usually in the St. Cecelia ballroom. Interviewer: Some of the people that I’ve interviewed have said that there was no liquor or very little liquor served at parties, really evidence of… Mr. Hunting: I, I never saw any alcohol served at any party till, well after I was out of college. Interviewer: So did, did the kids you grew up with drink at all? Mr. Hunting: Not at all. Not at all, and it wasn’t till after I got out of College that I saw any beer drinking in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: That’s curious. What, what did the young people do for entertainment outside of the parties? Mr. Hunting: They would organize small dances. We had a one group of dances which we called P A Y E group. Pay as you enter where we’d donate enough money to buy a little music, piano player and a violin perhaps and dance in somebody’s ballroom, usually in the Huntley Russell �5 house. We had picnics, we had treasure hunts, we had a great deal of social activity in skating. Skating and tobogganing was very popular. This was before skiing became a recognized activity. Interviewer: The Russell Family now, Huntley Russell where did they live? Mr. Hunting: They loved out at Comstock Park but a Francis Russell and Lucius Boltwood who lived there both came to the Wealthy Avenue School. And they would eat their lunch at one of their relatives on Madison or Morris. Interviewer: I see, the time, in other, no liquor well, no liquor at all I guess, How does that time compare, the time you were growing up compare to the time, for example, that your own children were growing up? Mr. Hunting: Well I think we had much simpler tastes and much less was done for us than was done for my children. I remember you could get an ice-cream soda for a nickel and when I first ate a banana split, it was fifteen cents, and that was quite an event to do that. When the summer time we had the Ramona Theatre, vaudeville. And that was an entertainment to do for an evening to go there and do some of the, some of the activities, in door skating rink, or roller coaster, features like that that were around the Ramona Theatre. Interviewer: What, what do you think that the time that you were growing up, was a slower paced way of living than today? Mr. Hunting: Oh it was much slower because you walked everywhere. When we first had our fraternity party at the new Kent Country Club out north of here at its present location, we would rent a street car to bring everyone home from the party and a great question was whether the car should run up Cherry Street or run up Wealthy in order to come to the nearest, to the homes of the people that went to the party. And at that time I remember we were, Sandy [Sanford] Wilcox, and I were taking two girls, the girl’s mother objected to her riding out in a Wilcox carriage. She thought she should go in the streetcar with everybody else. The girls always would carry their slippers in a bag and wear their regular shoes and overshoes till they got to the party. Interviewer: Well, I remember I was, I think it was Mrs. Avery that I was talking to, she was talking about, like dating customs, holding hands for example was considered, according to Mrs. Avery, was not the thing to do at all. Mr. Hunting: If you were able to hold a girl’s hand walking home why you thought you’d made quite a little progress. And certainly you didn’t want to be seen doing it. Interviewer: Yeah, what, what do you think that changed the way of living from that period of time to today. What, what was the big change? And when did it change? Mr. Hunting: I can’t tell because I haven’t been in a teaching business or any business where I saw the gradual change develop. It’s a complete change in, standards, conventions, and I see it �6 reflected in other ways that, there’s reluctance for people—unless they have to, to dress properly to sit down and eat, eat in the manner in which I was accustomed to eat, slowly and, everyone sit at the table until everyone was finished. It now has almost become a counter-grab and people do not like to take the time to go through a full meal in company with other people. I don’t, I can’t see where the complete change in young people’s relationships occurred. There seems to be a great desire now to show people their affection for each other and to act in a manner that normally they would feel, I mean that in older times they would feel should be reserved for privacy. I don’t know whether that really means a desire to be seen with people in affectionate poses, or in a boastful manner, or because they really can’t wait till they are alone. What do you think? Interviewer: I don’t know, it’s hard for me to, to talk about something like that because I never grew up in an, in an age where holding a girl’s hand was making quite a bit of progress. Yes, it’s very interesting that, that the way the society was then when you were growing up compared to the way it is today. It sounds like they had many differences. Mr. Hunting: Well it is, there’s, there’s a great difference. I… parents had much firmer control over their children; they knew what they were doing because the children were with them more. They couldn’t get out of sight. They couldn’t get in a car and disappear for the day and couldn’t be reached anymore. Now, you can’t tell where you children are because the mobility is so great that they can either go on their own or with somebody, and once gone they’re gone. And the activity no longer is centered in the house, like ours was. Interviewer: A question that I haven’t asked anybody yet, yet… I suppose it didn’t come along until a little later was, about the airplanes. When did, when was, do you remember the first airplane you ever saw? Mr. Hunting: Yeah, the first airplane was brought here by fellow named Bill Turpin, it was a graduated Phi Delta Theta in Ann Arbor and he would give exhibitions at the fair of flying an airplane and he just would go from fair to fair, to fly an airplane. That was before the First World War. In the First World War airplanes became rather common but it was six or eight years prior to the First World War, airplanes were infrequently seen and the only places they could fly from would be at a county fair or on a race track. Interviewer: Did you go out for the First World War? Mr. Hunting: I was in the First World War; I was in Europe for about eighteen months. I was first Lieutenant of infantry and I trained at Fort Sheridan, Camp Custer and spent the rest of the time in Europe. Interviewer: Was there quite a bit of patriotism? �7 Mr. Hunting: Oh yes, everyone, everyone volunteered practically, and the officers training camps were completely subject to volunteer enrollment. And I don’t just remember when the Brass started that. I was in the first officers training camp and felt very fortunate to be selected and I was very, had a, had a very high morale in the companies that I was with all the time. The attitude was terrific. Interviewer: After the war, what were, what were the twenties like, where they as wild as, they make it out to be? Mr. Hunting: They was a breakdown and there was, drinking became more common and they, they brought in dances that were not as dignified or as well recognized as the ones we were used to, but the participation was limited to few people and they were, were examples that were referred to, Fitzgerald group and, some of those and I would say that it was not generally through the society that I was involved with. Interviewer: Let’s see, I just have a couple more questions. How old were you when you got married? Mr. Hunting: Thirty three. Interviewer: Now was that common in those days for men, to, to wait until they were a little older to get married? Mr. Hunting: Well my brother was married when he was twenty one. Interviewer: Oh… Mr. Hunting: Best answer I can give you to that. And I know of the many that were married in their very early twenties. Interviewer: I see so that there was no, no set standard on that? Mr. Hunting: No, I think it shifted around a great deal. Interviewer: Ok good. We were just talking about schools, tell me a little about what the schools were like when you were going to school compared to the way they are now-- at least what we read. Mr. Hunting: Well the, in the grade school, particularly and also though high school, the teacher had complete control of the pupils. The discipline was excellent and it was imposed completely. You stood in line as you left properly, walked out properly, you came in to the school and into the class and you studied quietly. There were some occasional pranks played. I remember one time bringing in a lung-tester which my uncle made and which was filled with flour. When you blew into it the hand dial, hand on the dial which was supposed to go around didn’t but a lot of flour come up all over your face. And Miss Banister, the teacher, saw it on my desk and says �8 what was, and I said a lung tester. She said, bring it to my desk and you may have it after school, which I did. Well during the writing lesson I heard the damnest yell, Miss Banister stood up covered with flour. She kept me after school because I had no right to bring such a thing like that in the school. But the discipline was excellent and the teachers were uniformly older than the teachers are today. And teaching was their profession which was quite honored and quite respected and they, we did not have PTA groups then but the teacher would occasionally write a letter for someone to take home and have the mother answer or come to see her at a certain time. Interviewer: So then the big difference, the two big differences, one the respect for the teachers and two, the discipline within the school. Mr. Hunting: The students, I never saw a student show disrespect for a teacher or attempt to talk back to her or refuse to do what she told him to. And a teacher would occasionally send a pupil out into the hall to sit through a session if he’d been whispering or doing things that were wrong. Interviewer: Well is there anything else that… Mr. Hunting: OK, glad to talk to you. INDEX Ford, Theola · 2 A Avery, Mrs. · 6 G Gay, Will · 3 B Baker Family · 2 Banister, Miss · 8 Bissell, Mrs. · 4 Blanchard, Miss · 2 Blodgett Family · 4 Boltwood, Lucius · 5 Bundy Family · 4 H Hazletine Family · 4 Hollister Family · 4 Holt Family · 4 Huntley Russell Family · 5 K C Central High School · 3 Cole, Miss · 2 Keeler Family · 3 Kent Country Club · 5 L F Lowe Family · 4 First World War · 7 Ford, Joe · 2 �9 M Martine, Miss · 2 P Palmer Family · 2 R Ramona Theatre · 5 Russell Family · 3, 5 Russell, Fran · 3 S Scribner Family · 1 Seymour Family · 2 Shank Family · 2 Spanish American War · 2 Spencer Family · 2 T Turpin, Bill · 7 W Wealthy School · 5 Wealthy Street School · 3 White Family · 3, 4 Wilcox Family · 2, 5 Wilcox, Sanford · 5 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/91fb24701c0fec0d09c68dfd0f2721c3.mp3 d757e587e9b67ad33009042a01c9ce99 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_35Hunting Title A name given to the resource Hunting, David Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hunting, David Description An account of the resource David Hunting was born in 1892. He was a lieutenant during WWI. He married Mary Ives in 1925. Mr. Hunting worked in the office furniture manufacturing business and was founder of the Dyer-Ives Foundation (now Steelcase). He died on April 19, 1992. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0c52d4f130b5b34a4e4082826f43b8c2.pdf 9d77bd60d280dde810e9189a8ae1e0c3 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. Chester Idema Interviewed on September 24, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #16, 17 (52:28) Biographical Information Chester Frederick Idema was born 18 August 1886 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He died 20 March 1978 at his home at 29 Gay Avenue, Grand Rapids. He was the son of Henry and Johanna Wilhelmina (Doornink) Idema. Henry was born in Grand Rapids in 1856 and died 8 Jaunuary 1951. He married Johanna W. Doornink on 3 February 1880 in Grand Rapids. Johanna died in 25 December 1953. Chester’s brothers, Walter D. Idema and Edward H. Idema were also born in Grand Rapids – 16 December and 1888 and 23 November 1890, respectively. Chester F. Idema was married on 4 October 1913 to Marion Mead in Grand Rapids. Marion was the daughter of James Andrew Mead and Alice Nash and born 4 August 1891 in Grand Rapids. She died 22 December 1957 in Grand Rapids. Many members of the Idema family are buried in Woodlawn Cemetery in Grand Rapids. ___________ Interviewer: There, now we’re starting. I’m going to start right out with that, that question I asked you before, whether you have, whether you think there is any value to this project at all. And if you don’t think so, why not? Mr. Idema: I am unable to see the ultimate good in a sufficiently to warrant the time, effort, and cost, getting the material. I am unable to see that your objective is important. I’m probably wrong. Interviewer: You can be right, you know… Mr. Idema: Hmm? Interviewer: You could be right. Mr. Idema: Well, time will tell that... Interviewer: Well, were you born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Idema: I was born on Lyon Street. Interviewer: Whereabouts on Lyon? Mr. Idema: Between Prospect and Lafayette on the south side. �2 Interviewer: Yes? Was …? Mr. Idema: The house still stands, in spite of the fact I left it. Interviewer: What was it like growing up there in that neighborhood? Mr. Idema: What was it like? Interviewer: Yes Mr. Idema: I don’t know just what you mean. There were an awful lot of kids, my age, a little younger, a little under. We had our fights and our armies and our games and our plays. We all went to Fountain Street School, then later to the Grand Rapids High School, which was then at, on the Lyon Street hill, the big red school, that was high school. Interviewer: Is that at Lyon and Barclay? Mr. Idema: Barclay, yes, or Ransom, yes, I guess Barclay. No, Barclay would be, no, the big school was on Ransom Street, the big red school, Ransom and Lyon. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Idema: Then I went, I graduate…, I didn’t graduated, I went to preparatory school in Pennsylvania and I went to the University of Michigan graduated there in nineteen nine. Interviewer: What did you do after you graduated? Mr. Idema: Went to the Elliot Machine Company. Interviewer: Can you tell me the story about the Elliot Machine Company again? Mr. Idema: Well, the Elliot Machine Company was a mana… was a company engaged solely in the manufacture of button-fastener machines which would wire fasten buttons on button shoes. The machines were leased, for a certain sum a year, and the wire, they, unless he agreed to use, wire made by the Elliot Machine Company and no other, and that profit, and the very large profit, was in that. And they had machines in every part in every city in the U.S., every shoe store had to have one because a person would buy a pair of button shoes and they wouldn’t fit and they’d have to have the buttons set over. So they clip off the old buttoner, unfasten it, set it over where it belongs, and put it on with this machine. Every click was some value to the Elliot Machine Company. Well, that, during the war, the government, I’ve forgotten what division that would be, put the ban on the manufacture of button shoes, in order to conserve leather. As a result of which, as button shoes disappeared, and couldn’t be repurchased, there was no use for a machine to put buttons on them. And the Company folded up, there was no value except junk value to those thousands machines, which were in every part of the United State, but not worth the freight to bring them back. �3 Interviewer: Well, I, how would, what would it conserve leather by doing away with the button shoes? Weren’t there other shoes made out of leather? Mr. Idema: Yes, but it made two styles. Two different types of shoes, you, you and your wife would either buy lace shoe or button shoe or for some occasion or both. But anyway, they, what it accomplished I don’t know, but that was their reason. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Idema: Conservation of leather. Interviewer: That was a pretty profitable company, the Elliot? Mr. Idema: While it was growing, it was very profitable. But it ended just as quick. And all the investment in machinery and tools and everything was practically nil. And these machines that were in existence all over the country under lease, and they say they’re not worth shipping back. Interviewer: You mentioned that Elliot paid for half of the Masonic Temple here in town. Mr. Idema: I think its contribution was either about, even figure of about one hundred fifty thousand dollars, or something like that, about half of it, I’ve forgot. But a large sum, which he made in this business. Now that was during nineteen thirteen-fourteen-fifteen-sixteen, just before the war, when it was in its height. Previous to that, lace shoes had been the style. Gradually it turns over and button shoes came back in. Women used to wear button, button shoes almost to the knee, there’d be sixteen buttons on shoe; that’s thirty-two buttons on a pair. Well, that was worth probably twenty-five or-thirty cents to the Elliot Machine Company to put those on. See, when, when shoes were sent to the retailer they’re sewed on, they’re never clipped on with wire, because they have to be changed to conform to the customer and their needs. So, it’s very easy to snip the threads, then put ‘em on with wire. So that very, very few of ‘em except for heavy men’s shoes, were put on at the factory. They were sent and just tied on really. But you go in, you’d lose a button as it happens you’d do this and a button would come off, you’d stop at the first little shoe store, it’s on the way down, go in and take off your shoe and he’d put it on there and like that there’d be a new, be clamped on. Automatically crimper would do that and slap the button on. And using Elliot wire, which, in which he had a whale of a product. Interviewer: Then, you went off to war? Mr. Idema: Then I, I enlisted in nineteen seventeen, yes. Interviewer: Did you go overseas? Mr. Idema: No, I didn’t get overseas: I came back in nineteen nineteen and went into the, well, it was soon after that, there was a little interim which there’s no need to go into.., I went with the Welch-Wilmarth Company which later became a part of the Grand Rapids Store Equipment Corporation. They had a factory down on Madison Avenue and a great big factory on outer �4 Monroe Avenue. And, I left that to go in the Old Kent Bank in nineteen …, I can’t tell you, about nineteen thirty-three or four. And I’ve been with the Elliot, I’ve been with the Old Kent nineteen years, at the Old National office, you know where that is, where it was? You know where the Bank is? Interviewer: The Old Kent Bank? Mr. Idema: No, the Bank, it’s a restaurant in the Pantlind. Interviewer: Oh yes, the bar, yes. Mr. Idema: That’s where the Old National office of the Old Kent Bank, that’s where I was, that was my desk. And I was there until the new building was built and then they put all our stuff over there, the National office, I mean. And the main office was in the Morton House, at that time. It’s still a bank, but it’s not the main office; the main office, of course is in a new building. Interviewer: Yes, was that known as Old Kent Bank when you joined it? Mr. Idema: Yes. (It) was the Old National office of the Old Kent Bank, just like the other would be the Morton Hotel office, or Cherry-Diamond office, or Plainfield branch, or whatever. I was. at the time I retired, which they made me do it, I was a little over 65, according to the retirement rules; I was in charge of the Old National office of the Old Kent Bank, Vice President in charge of the Old National. And I haven’t worked since. Interviewer: Did, were your brothers instrumental in forming Steelcase? Mr. Idema: One brother. Interviewer: Which brother was that? Mr. Idema: Walter, he started with the Metal Office Furniture (Company), which was then, with Mr. Peter Wege, who came here from Ohio, from General Fire Proofing Company, Youngstown, Ohio. They formed and organized the Metal Office Furniture Company which is now Steelcase. Interviewer: Was that a relatively new thing at that time? Mr. Idema: What? Interviewer: Was that a relatively new concept, metal office furniture when they went into business? Mr. Idema: No, no. General Fireproofing had been making it for years, and they were at that time the largest in the world. Mr. Wege came here and got people interested; put in money, got a factory down in the south end, started making metal furniture;. started in a very modest way, making wastebaskets and little tables and filing cases and so forth. Now God knows, they make everything, and they are the largest in the world, by far. General Fireproofing is not done so well �5 since…I, I that shouldn’t be recorded, I mean comments like that, I don’t need to make them because I have no business making them. I can tell you about the Metal Office or the Steelcase, but I don’t know anything about General Fireproofing except they’ve lost some standing in the business. Interviewer: Yes, you go down to lunch nearly every day at the University Club, don’t you? Mr. Idema: Just about every day. Interviewer: Can you tell me a little bit about the University Club? Mr. Idema: Well, as I say, I think it was first meeting was in the house right down there on the corner which was then occupied by Mr. Wanty... Tom Wanty graduated [from] the University of Michigan, and I went to Michigan, my brother went to Princeton, and they got somebody else from Harvard, somebody from Yale, and so forth and formed a nucleus of the University Club. I can’t give you the date, I wouldn’t even guess. But we have been in various places. We’ve been in the Pantlind; we’ve been, well, for a long time on the top floor of the Michigan Trust Company, until we moved into the new, five years ago, where we are now. But, what do you want to know about it? Interviewer: Is that, well, is that why they call it the University Club, because they took men from certain universities? Mr. Idema: You have to have attended a university to belong. Interviewer: I didn’t know that. Mr. Idema: Yes, well, that’s true in every city where there is a University Club, that’s why the name. Don’t have to be a graduate, but you have to attend, been a pupil at a university, recognized university. I don’t know how many members they got now, but I they got an awful lot of them. Interviewer: Was, what kind of, was there any kind of competition between the University Club and the Peninsular Club? Mr. Idema: No competition. The University, the Peninsular Club is more of the business club. Older, older men and younger men if, you want to take a business, somebody there talk business, take ‘em to the Pen Club. They don’t, the University Club doesn’t, doesn’t cater to that kind of trade. Interviewer: What, what does the University…? Mr. Idema: It’s a social club, I mean you meet there to meet friends and. But the Peninsular Club is a businessman’s club. A great many people belong to the Peninsular Club who don’t belong to the other, or vice versa. Now, when I was in the bank, I belonged to the Peninsular �6 Club, because it’d be some banker from Chicago over here, and I’d would want to take his, and I would take him to the Peninsular Club which had more the atmosphere of a business club. And they don’t cater to that kind of business at the University Club. It’s a social club, it has long tables; everyone sits, long and then they have small tables around. Have you ever been there? Interviewer: At the University Club? Mr. Idema: You know what it looks like. Interviewer: Yes, it is pretty nice. Their, their new club is particularly nice. I remember I went to a dance at the old, you know, the University Club that was on top of the Michigan Trust Building. Mr. Idema: Oh, this is much larger. Interviewer: Yes, oh yes. Mr. Idema: And we never, the old club, the old club in the Trust Building, we didn’t have regular evening dinners, which they do here I think every night but three nights, four nights a week, I guess. All you have to do is to go down there and be served. Interviewer: When you were growing up on Lyon Street there, was there very much closeness among the families that lived along Lyon Street? Mr. Idema: Oh, very much so, sure. Everybody knew everybody. Judge Dennison lived right across the road, next to him was Mr. Barlow, next to him was Mr. Stone, next to him was Dr. Schaefer, across the street was Mr. Treadway, in the railroad business, on the corner was somebody connected with the Grand Rapids Brewery. I can go right around the block. Those names I can remember, but you ask me who sat across from me this noon at lunch, I don’t know… Interviewer: What, what did, there, there were closeness in the neighborhood, was there very much socializing among the families? Mr. Idema: Not a great deal, no. Oh, there’d be some…this way, but not this way. This man here, this family here, might be very close and friendly with the one across the street, because their children was (were) the same age. Maybe the house next door they had no children and they didn’t contact at all. Children made a great deal of difference; they, they kind of mixed the families up, and in our particular house had the top floor which was the neighborhood, especially on a rainy day, for all the kids in the neighborhood. There would be only one place that was that big, and that was a very large house, and the whole top floor was a playroom. So we had all the kids. In those days we didn’t play football, we played some baseball. And then, we had a big dog, we used, we used to play some game Prisoners, some prisoner game, chase them with the �7 dog. But all the people are gone, I haven’t got a single acquaintance that lived up where I lived when I was little, a young man. Well, my brother. Interviewer: You don’t know even whether they’re still living in Grand Rapids? Mr. Idema: Oh, I know they’re dead; I know what’s become of them not eventually, but, I know they died. Interviewer: Was that street paved, Lyon Street? Mr. Idema: Used to have cable cars. Ever see or hear of a cable car? Interviewer: I’ve seen them in San Francisco… Mr. Idema: Well, that’s the same thing. The cables were continuous cables that ran through a slot. They dropped this grip down and take hold of it, the cable, and take the car up the hill. Interviewer: From downtown on Lyon Street? How far out Lyon does that cable car go? Mr. Idema: I think to what is now Grand Avenue… but I may be wrong on that. Perhaps only to Union. Interviewer: Beyond those streets was where the country was? Mr. Idema: Yeah, more or less. I don’t think it was built up to much. But I don’t know, I didn’t know much about what went on then, east of where I lived. West was downtown. Interviewer: Did you spend a lot of time downtown? Mr. Idema: Well, when? What do you mean? Interviewer: If you didn’t spend much time east of the house, you must have spent your time west of the home. Mr. Idema: Well, what age are you talking about? Interviewer: Oh, I don’t know…. Mr. Idema: We used to go downtown every day or two, for sure. Slide down a hill in winter and walk down in the summer. Washington Street used to be a wonderful street for sliding. They had the police roped it off. You start at College Avenue, ran down and turn on Jefferson. And I don’t think they ever allowed it on Lyon, it was too steep. But Fountain Street allowed it and roped it off. And then they had the horses; some of them would have horses, pull ‘em up. Interviewer: When the kids came downhill, somebody had a horse to pull the kids up? �8 Mr. Idema: They had a horse; it take ‘em down the hill, around by Fulton Street, then have them pull it up to Fountain. But mostly we hauled our own. They had bobs that would hold twelve, fourteen kids, and they’d go, I don’t know how fast they’re going at the bottom but we were moving. Interviewer: Was downtown much different then, than it is now? Mr. Idema: Well, it’s beginning to change now, it’s high time. Interviewer: What do you mean? Mr. Idema: Well lower Monroe Avenue and Monroe to Campau Square of course entirely different than it was fifty years ago. But it wasn’t very long ago that it looked a great deal the same. They’re just waking up downtown now. That, maybe thing, maybe they can hold it, maybe they can’t, I don’t know. Business is moving out, so is residential property. Interviewer: Was that lower Monroe section, taken out by urban renewal, was that, were there quite a few businesses in there? Mr. Idema: Oh, retail businesses, firms, sure. Spring Dry Goods Company, a very large concern that was right down at the bottom of the hill, just where you made the turn, the bottom of Monroe. And, Herpolsheimer’s used to be Voigt-Herpolsheimer’s, but that’s moved up the street from where it was, I think Wurzburg’s is where Herpolsheimer’s used to be, as I recall it. But of course none of them are sitting home now. Steketee's. Interviewer: Yes, Steketee’s is still sitting on a bench[?]. Mr. Idema: About the only one. Interviewer: Voigt-Herpolsheimer, that’s the same family as the flour mills? Mr. Idema: C. G. A. Voigt was the father of the Voigt brothers, and he and Mr. Herpolsheimer owned the business, but he wasn’t active. He was always in the flour business. But my grandfather, on my mother’s side and Mr. Paul J. Steketee, were partners, and the name of the store was Steketee-Doornink and they were partners right where Steketee’s is now, ‘til they agreed to disagree and my grandfather sold out to Mr. Steketee, and it became Steketee and Sons, Paul Steketee and Sons. But he was in the dry goods business with Mr. Steketee, for quite awhile. Interviewer: What did he do after he sold his a….. Mr. Idema: Oh, he retired: he, I don’t think he did anything. I never knew him, I was pretty young then. Well, I knew him, but can’t, I have no memory of him. Interviewer: Who was the first member of your family to come to Grand Rapids? �9 Mr. Idema: Well, what do you mean by family? Interviewer: Well, let’s say both on your mother’s and father’s side. Mr. Idema: They were both born in Grand Rapids, my father and mother. Interviewer: Did their parents come to Grand Rapids? Mr. Idema: Their parents came from Holland; the old Holland called the Netherlands. Idema is a Dutch name and a Dutch family. Interviewer: What… Do you know what brought them from the Netherlands to Grand Rapids? Mr. Idema: Ships. Interviewer: I mean, what would have prompted them to leave the Netherlands for….. Mr. Idema: Same thing that prompted everybody to leave the Netherlands, religious persecution and they settled here, and they settled around Holland, Michigan. A great many of them settled in Iowa, that’s a great Dutch settlement. And quite a few of them in Pennsylvania, although the Pennsylvania Dutch, I mean the Dutch as we know them here, they’re not very much the same class of people. I don’t know but I know they talked kind of disparagingly of Pennsylvania Dutch. But all your VanRaaltes founded the Church down in Holland, the Dutch Reformed Church. That was one of the most prominent Dutch families to come from Holland. But here the Steketees and the Doorninks, and the, oh, I don’t know. There used to be more Steketees in the telephone book than there were Smiths, not now, of course, but they died out. Interviewer: Why did the Dutch come to this part of the United States? Mr. Idema: I can’t tell you, I don’t know. I know when my grandmother, they moved, they lived first in Buffalo, then they came from Buffalo to Grand Rapids, that’s my grandmother on my mother’s side. And what brought ‘em to Grand Rapids, I don’t know. I don’t know why they chose Grand Rapids, of course, a little bit of a village then – a town. Interviewer: Well, would the Dutch people that came here, were they a very close knit ethnic group? Mr. Idema: Pretty much, and very religious. Interviewer: Was your family a part of that group? Mr. Idema: I would say so, my grandmother on my mother’s side, more than on my father’s. I my father’s background is a little hazy to me; I don’t - I can’t tell you much about it. Interviewer: Where did the Dutch locate mostly, in Grand Rapids, did they kind of hang together in the same neighborhood? �10 Mr. Idema: No, I can’t recall that they did. We were about the only one on that neighborhood on Lyon Street. But the Dutch Church was on Bostwick Street, just off Lyon, called the Second Reformed Church, and the services were in Dutch language. My grandmother who lived with us, on my mother’s side spoke very little English. As a result of which I acquired a pretty good smattering of Dutch. Interviewer: Can you still speak it? Mr. Idema: Oh, yes. I can understand it better, (at least when I knew) I had no need of the vocabulary. I used to be pretty good in French when I went to college and took it four years. But I don’t use it, so I forget it. But I can understand Dutch; we have a cleaning woman who comes here every week and she speaks no English, why she and I get along fine. And it was a big help to my father when he went in the banking business, and, the Kent County Savings Bank, where he started, was called spaarbank. … Interviewer: What does that mean? Mr. Idema: Savings Bank Interviewer: Is that Dutch? Mr. Idema: Sure, it’s Dutch. It was on the corner of Lyon and it’s opposite where the Old National was, the other end of the Pantlind, which was then Sweet’s Hotel, before the Pantlind. Then the Kent County Savings Bank combined with the State Bank of Michigan, formed the Kent State Bank, which later combined with the Old National Bank and made the Old Kent Bank. They also took in the Fourth National Bank and People’s; that left only the Old Kent Michigan National. And the well, really, before the days of the Union Bank, there were only two banks. Mr. John E. Frey formed the Union Bank, Jack Frey, Ed Frey’s father. Dates I can’t give you – I don’t know. Interviewer: Who, who was kind of instrumental in tying together all these various banks to form the Old Kent? Mr. Idema: My father. Interviewer: Your father? Mr. Idema: Absolutely, he made it, he did it. Interviewer: What was his name? Mr. Idema: Henry. Interviewer: Henry Idema? �11 Mr. Idema: He lived to be ninety-five. He was active up to the time he was ninety. In those days they didn’t kick them out at sixty-five like they do all over now. They, they took, they has a little stuff left in ‘em. And he was very active in the bank in his eighties. Now when you’re sixtyfive, away you go. Everywhere. Interviewer: Yes, in some places I think it’s even lower than that. Mr. Idema: Yes, some of them have sixty two, and almost all of them have an option, if you want sixty five or sixty two you can, but you lose some benefits. My other brother, the third brother, Edward Idema, when he retired was the owner and operator of the Manufacturer’s Supply Company, which is now being run by his son named Henry Idema the second. So that was, what became of the three brothers. Interviewer: Did you associate, like, the kids that lived along Lyon Street, did they associate with the kids living over on, let’s say, Lafayette, Prospect…? Mr. Idema: Oh, to some extent, because if we went to the same school. But we were, we had enough of us in the area to take care of our needs for a little baseball or hockey or something like that. Oh, there were, I had friends on Crescent Avenue, and over on Prospect Street, sure… Interviewer: Where did you play ball in those days? Mr. Idema: Usually in our backyard. We had the biggest back yard, that’s where they played. Interviewer: What’s the address of that home up on Lyon Street? Mr. Idema: I don’t know. It was two eighty-four when I lived there, but I know it’s changed. It was bought by a Mr. Wagemaker, who bought it from my father and Isaac Wagemaker, and there he had a son named Ray, who owned and operated the Wagemaker Company making bolts, you know. He later bought this house directly across the street. And he died of a heart attack, about, I’d say five or six years ago. And I always called that the Wagemaker House, although he didn’t build it. But I never knew that, I never knew their family, except as I knew that they lived in the old house. Interviewer: Do you think that living is very much different today than when you were growing up? Mr. Idema: Sure is. Interviewer: How is it, what was the biggest difference? Mr. Idema: Well, your needs are so much, your economics are so different, your economy is different. Five cent sodas are thirty five cents and all that stuff, and I mean, money wasn’t so important. If a kid got fifty cents a week allowance he’d be pretty affluent. Now you get that much for nothing. The economy is tiring, change, right straight across the whole strata. Not just, �12 youth, it’s everybody. And I’m talking about previous to World War Two and way back in then, I was born in the eighteen eighties. We didn’t know, we had the Spanish American War, but that was no, that didn’t amount to anything. And of course, I was, after the Civil War, I hope. But we never, we didn’t have the war problem, we didn’t have the economy problem, we didn’t have the liquor problem. I don’t know, life was a lot easier, I’ll tell you that. [End of side one] Mr. Idema: Well, did you, were you in school with John? Interviewer: Yes, he was a year behind me. And Steve was in my grade. Mr. Idema: Yes, John just moved here within the last six months. He was in the army until last, well, I guess he got discharged about March, February, March. He’s out at Amway Corporation. Interviewer: Oh, is he? Mr. Idema: And Steve is head of the local Legal Aid and their oldest brother. Phil, is a partner with Crook, Fryhoffer and somebody, he’s been with them quite awhile. So they all live here, all have children, no, Steve doesn’t have any. Steve just came here from Denver. He was the head of the Legal Aid in Denver, or in the Legal Aid work. Previous to that he was with, oh, I’ve forgotten the name of that, the government deal, similar kind of work but he was down in the Caribbean. What was the name of that, VISTA, you know, VISTA, Volunteers In Service To America .Well, that brought him to Denver and he worked with the poor around Denver, and that kind of work, and then he was offered this job here and he came here oh, a couple of months ago. Interviewer: Let’s see, I was going to ask you about your wife, and you know, if she was a Grand Rapids girl and what her background was. Would [you] tell me a little about that? Mr. Idema: Not very much. She was born in Grand Rapids, and went to Grand Rapids’ schools, Smith College, graduated in nineteen thirteen; we were, in nineteen twelve we were married in nineteen thirteen. Interviewer: Did you build this house after, just after you were married? Mr. Idema: No, I didn’t build it ‘til nineteen seventeen. I moved in the day war was declared. And that was in April, nineteen seventeen. I enlisted and left here in February of nineteen eighteen, and I was gone until nineteen twenty or twenty-one. But I didn’t go overseas. I was in Camp Hancock, Georgia most the time. And she lived here; we had one child at that time. She lived in the house. Interviewer: Who built these homes, the other homes along Gay Street? Mr. Idema: I can’t tell you. I’m the newest house so I don’t know. �13 Interviewer: That one across the street, the Wagemaker house, you said that a… Mr. Idema: I don’t know, well, I know who owned it, Mr. John Duffy, had it built, that what you mean? Interviewer: Yes Mr. Idema: I don’t know the name of any builders… Interviewer: Yes? No, the people who… Mr. Idema: John Duffy bought it, built it, and paid for it. He was the head of the Grand Rapids Hardware Company. And as I told you, Wagemaker bought it out of the Duffy estate, after John Duffy died, and Mrs. Duffy. The house down here belonged to; I don’t think it was built by him, but belonged to Joseph Brewer. Interviewer: Whose house is that, the one that the Lockwoods live in? Mr. Idema: No, the next house. Interviewer: Oh, yes. Mr. Idema: That’s an apartment house, and that is in their garage, and so… the Lockwood house, I can’t tell you who built it, but I think it was a man named Childs. And his probably the oldest house on the street, except the one on the corner, but that faces Washington. And the Gay property, the Gay house faces Fulton, and the one up on the corner, which belonged to Mr. Mormon, he built that, that faces Fulton. Interviewer: That’s the green house there on the corner? Mr. Idema: Well, they’re all apartment houses except Mrs. Lockwood’s and this one. And not only there, but all the way around this block every single one of ‘em are apartment houses. There isn’t a single apa… a single house, in the block which I’m sitting. That’s the way the change is, all single houses when I built. There was no East Grand Rapids as we know it today. We used to go out there by the streetcar and go up to the show at Ramona. That was East Grand Rapids. But, if I knew then what I know now, I’d never built here. Interviewer: Why is that? Mr. Idema: Why is that? Interviewer: Yes? If you knew what… Mr. Idema: If I knew, what I know now? Interviewer: Yes? What do you know now that you didn’t know then? �14 Mr. Idema: Well, I know that we’re in right on the edge of a slum. I mean, the character of the people, the houses, everything, we’re in a, they had a, well, tonight, right down here night before last. Interviewer: Where’s that, on Washington? Mr. Idema: Yes, just off Washington. They snatch purses around here. I wouldn’t, well, I finally persuaded the city to put up this light, I got a big light out here that lights itself, but… we’re only two blocks away from Wealthy and that’s all colored, and that’s where the trouble is. Don’t I I (didn’t) want that on. Interviewer: No, that won’t be on, won’t reprint that. Mr. Idema: I’d I mean I don’t, you don’t talk that way. Interviewer: No. Why do you think that the, what, what caused these homes to go from single family residences to apartment houses? Mr. Idema: Because nobody kept up, and built decent houses, they all went out to East Grand Rapids. That’s where all the money is in the houses. Interviewer: In other words, the economics that maintained a home like this aren’t very much different for maintaining a sizable home in East Grand Rapids… Mr. Idema: What do you mean, cost? Interviewer: Yes, Mr. Idema: Oh, that isn’t a matter of cost. They just don’t want to be in this neighborhood anymore, and I wouldn’t either. Interviewer: Why did they all move out in the first place? Mr. Idema: Well, why does anything like that occur or any movement, migration? I can’t tell you. Interviewer: Well, the reason why I asked is that I was talking to, I was interviewing someone last week I think it was either Mrs. Whinery or Mrs. Lockwood, and they said that the Ledyard property up there on the corner of Cherry and College that six generations of family lived. Mr. Idema: That’s the Oakwood Manor. Interviewer: Yes, where they opened the Hillmount, that six generations of the family lived there, on that same plot of ground. Mr. Idema: Yes, that’s right, and they die out. �15 Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Idema: Nobody comes along. Interviewer: Yes, that’s another, other people we’ve interviewed talk about how their family, well, I’ve talked to George Shelby and he said that the family built the, the house that’s commonly known as the Booth house, his family built that, and they built another one on the corner, and they built another one next to that. Mr. Idema: I don’t know. Shelby ought to. Those are beautiful houses, on Lafayette Street, that was, well, and this was top grade. Interviewer: Well, this is still a beautiful house. Mr. Idema: Of course it is, but isn’t a beautiful neighborhood. It’s a lousy neighborhood. Interviewer: Well, I think there’s kind of a move among young people at least. I noticed up on, I haven’t seen a house for sale on Gay Street in a long time, but, up on the hill there, the houses come up for sale, and they’re sold pretty quickly. Now, I don’t whether it’s a… Mr. Idema: Because they’re cheap… Interviewer: I don’t know – I never looked at prices. Mr. Idema: Well, East Grand Rapids prices are way up, compared to ours, for a similar thing. My kids and grandchildren bought out there, one of them built, gee, what they have to pay for a house would make you sick. But, they all want to be out in East Grand Rapids. Interviewer: What, if you want to answer this one, but, just out of curiosity, just what, what did a house like this cost you to build when you built it? Mr. Idema: Forty-two thousand dollars. Interviewer: That was pretty expensive house at that time too. Mr. Idema: Oh, you couldn’t do it today for a hundred. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Idema: That’s with everything. And I know that because I just discussed selling it. People want to know exactly what it cost, and they have a right to. But that was in nineteen seventeen, that’s fifty-five years ago, fifty-four, sixty-four, so you can’t compare it because anymore than you can compare furniture that was made then, or any automobile. When I moved in here I bought a Cadillac, nineteen forty-one, at one time, while I was living; what do you suppose the price was? �16 Interviewer: For a forty-one Cadillac? Mr. Idema: I have no idea. Interviewer: Four door, everything on it, was sixteen hundred and twenty-five dollars. That car today is sixty, [er] six thousand dollars. And that’s the way with everything. If I were to build, I wouldn’t build this house today, I wouldn’t build this type of house, I’d have a more modern house. This isn’t modern. It’s old, but isn’t an old fashioned house, but, there are a lot of things about it, I’d put in air conditioning if I was building. There are a lot of things that I would do. But that time’s past. One day, this will be another apartment house, I presume. It has six bedrooms and four baths, and the entire first floor, this room and that room and the hall, is one great big recreation room. Interviewer: What, down below us? Mr. Idema: I’ve had fifty people here to a dance, orchestra and the whole business down there. Interviewer: It’s a beautiful place. Mr. Idema: Well, it was then, it was, been a happy home for many years, kids grew up in it, and but, it’s in the wrong location. Interviewer: You didn’t really answer that, of course, maybe you don’t really know the reasons but the question I had is - why did people move out of this area? I mean, why did they start moving to East Grand Rapids, or Cascade, or wherever they moved? Mr. Idema: Oh, they were attracted by the terrain, and the very strong work done by certain realtors, one of which was Mr. Bonnell. [Do] you know where Bonnell Drive is? Well, Mr. Bonnell bought all that property in there, and had it landscaped, and new streets put through and they sold lots. Mr. Gilbert, Will Gilbert, bought where I used to play golf out there where East Grand Rapids is now, part of that. And, that’s all East Grand Rapids now, the water’s there, the lake, everything that attracted. There’s nothing attractive about this part of town, not now. When I built it there wasn’t any East Grand Rapids. As I told you, Ramona, but not, there were no homes like there are now. The Edward Lowe home, which is now Aquinas College, was built approximately nineteen hundred and one or two. You know where that is? That’s now, well that is on the South side of Robinson Road, at the end of Plymouth and that was the Edward Lowe house. He lived, when he built that house out there, he lived over here on the corner of College and Washington, which is the Insurance Company office, directly across from WOOD [TV]) Interviewer: Oh, yes. Mr. Idema: That was, that’s where I lived, that’s my father bought it of Mr. Lowe, sold the house up on Lyon, to Wagemaker. Interviewer: And bought which house…? �17 Mr. Idema: The one up on College Avenue on the corner Interviewer: Is that house still standing? Mr. Idema: Oh, I’ll say it is, sure. Interviewer: Is that the Castle? Mr. Idema: No, no, no, this end, Washington Street. The Castle’s on Cherry Street. Interviewer: Oh, Washington and College. Mr. Idema: Washington and College, south west corner. Interviewer: Oh, yes, I see, yes. Mr. Idema: It’s an insurance company. I sold it after my father died and my mother, to this insurance company. That was before WOOD [TV] was put up, which is an abortion. That was a beautiful block of homes, from Cherry to Fulton, on College. You can see that, well, you know the Waters’ house still stands. And then the Bissell house was there, that was where WOOD is. And down on the corner the Aldrich house, the Pantlind house, on this side the Castle, and the Byrnes, John Byrne’s house, and the Voigt house, and then that house my father owned, beautiful block, every house in there was a beautiful, big house. Look at them now. Awful. One’s an insurance company, another’s torn down, and the Waters’ house is the Waters’ house. And it’s an apartment house. Interviewer: Yes, and they’ve got all those others, those multiple living, high rises. Mr. Idema: Oh, as a residential section, this Grand Rapids is sunk. If you got any money, I mean, if people have got to buy fifteen thousand dollar houses, you can’t go to East Grand Rapids. You’ve got to buy where they can afford to, which is Grand Rapids, per se. But it’s, that doesn’t make it any more attractive. Interviewer: You think the automobile had much of an effect on the dispersal of the society? Mr. Idema: On what? Interviewer: On the dispersal of people, in other words, everyone lived in this area all of a sudden are living… Mr. Idema: Oh, I don’t know. Everybody had cars. Interviewer: Everybody had cars before East Grand Rapids started developing? Mr. Idema: I can’t tell you that, I don’t know. I think the first car in our family was nineteen four, when we lived on Lyon Street, and that was a Winton. But cars weren’t cars then, I mean, �18 they didn’t depend on them. Trip from here to Detroit took all day. There wasn’t the fluid moment movement that there is now, and that, automobiles have come as you know, in the last fifteen-twenty years was a tremendous rush. I won’t say they didn’t have something to do with it, because without the automobile, East Grand Rapids would be left high and dry. You can’t walk out there, but to say that that‘s the reason, I don’t know. But this so-called Heritage District that you mentioned is, you’ve taken in an awful lot of territory, you’ve taken in some, I think very run down places. You’ve got some good ones. Interviewer: Well, I think that’s what the Heritage Hill people are concerned with, is not necessarily you know, the junk that’s in there, but the good houses that are still standing that can be preserved. Mr. Idema: What they gonna do with ‘em? Interviewer: From what I’ve seen, some of these homes, they are trying to persuade the people that own them to, you know fix ‘em up, maintain them, keep ’em in good shape instead of letting them decline and… Mr. Idema: With what incentive? Interviewer: Well, the incentive to maintain an area that they think is beautiful. Mr. Idema: Why? Interviewer: Because it’s like this street here, you can’t go out to East Grand Rapids and find a street like this, maybe Bonnell Avenue, but that’s it. Mr. Idema: Oh, yes, you can, these houses are old-fashioned…. Interviewer: That’s right that’s, but out there, like you say, if you were building today, you’d build a modern house. Mr. Idema: Why, sure. Interviewer: But you don’t find homes like the homes in this area, built out there. A lot of people find these homes, homes along Gay Street and …. Mr. Idema: Oh, I think that house across the street, the Duffy house, I would say architecturally, it was a great deal like the Fitzgerald house. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Idema: And that’s in East Grand Rapids, and this was here. I don‘t think that’s, that’s follows at all. I might put this same house if I could find a spot on Reed’s Lake, and it would be in keeping, I mean, it’s not old-fashioned, in spite of the fact it’s that old, it’s architecturally, it’s �19 still good. And outside, you can say, look at that old house. But this house could have built last year. Interviewer: Well, I guess we’ve got enough. Think so? Mr. Idema: You’ve milked me. INDEX B K Bonnell, Mr. · 16 Kent County Savings Bank · 10 D Dennison, Judge · 6 Duffy, John · 13, 18 E L Lockwood Family · 13, 14 Lowe, Edward · 16 O Elliot Machine Company · 2, 3 Old Kent Bank · 4, 10 F P Fountain Street School · 2 Frey, John E. · 10 Peninsular Club · 5 G S Gilbert, Will · 16 Grand Rapids Store Equipment Corporation · 3 Shelby, George · 15 Smith College · 12 Steelcase · 4, 5 Steketee's · 8 H Herpolsheimer’s · 8 U I University Club · 5, 6 University of Michigan · 2, 5 Idema, Edward · 11 Idema, Henry (Father) · 8, 9, 10, 11, 16, 17 Idema, Johanna Wilhelmina Doornink (Mother) · 8, 9, 10, 17 W Wagemaker, Isaac · 11, 13, 16 Wanty, Tom · 5 Wege, Peter · 4 �20 Whinery, Mrs. · 14 Wurzburg’s · 8 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/117ab6d09f5daa4acebb2faf48e2759d.mp3 917681dc9d2837b6e5939fdaf03577f1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_16-17Idema Title A name given to the resource Idema, Chester Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Idema, Chester Description An account of the resource Chester Idema was born on August 18, 1886 in Grand Rapids. He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1909. He worked at the Elliot Machine Co. in Pennsylvania. In 1913, he married Marion Mead. During WWI, Mr. Idema enlisted in the military. Afterward, he worked at Old Kent Bank for 19 years and became a vice president. Mr. Idema belonged to the University Club and the Peninsular Club. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dd694b27a46f5c26312c278ea5e7dea5.pdf bc1380b77b47f9561489b13d78e87926 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. George Jackoboice Interviewed November 5, 1974 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010-bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 43 (1:16:37) Biographical Information George Adolphe Jackoboice was born 17 June 1908, the son of Edward J. Jackoboice and Helen Matilda Hake. George was married to Helen Gast, the daughter of Peter B. Gast and Emily Alt. George passed away 10 January 1987 in Grand Rapids and is buried at Mt. Calvary Cemetery. He was the chairman of Monarch Hydraulics, Inc. Besides three sons and their families, George was survived by his wife, Helen, who died 31 December 2008, aged 98 years. George‟s father, Edward Jackoboice was born in Grand Rapids on 16 June 1864, the son of Joseph Jackoboice and Frances Rasch. Edward died 8 May 1935 in Grand Rapids. George‟s mother, Helen Matilda Hake was born in Grand Rapids circa 1873 and died 23 May 1952 at St Mary‟s Hospital in Grand Rapids. The parents were married on 12 June 1906 in Grand Rapids. The Jackoboice family is buried in Mt. Calvary Cemetery on Grand Rapids‟ west side. ____________ Interviewer: Now, I think we‟re getting somewhere because the dial is, is really working here, I just didn‟t have this thing, this is tricky, it doesn‟t plug in quite right…Back it up and play it back. I‟ll play it back and then we‟ll see if I, if that‟s what it was. I think it is. This is an interview with Mr. George Jackoboice in his residence at two thirty-one Park Hills Drive. It‟s raining out. Mr. Jackoboice, is an old time resident, although by far the youngest we interviewed so far in this series. He‟s a member of an old, German family, some of whom lived on the west side of the river in the early days. He is currently the, are you the principal owner George of the, you‟re the president of the Monarch Road… Mr. Jackoboice: Machinery. Interviewer: Machinery Company. And I‟m going to let Mr. Jackoboice, I‟m going to ask him to talk, about his earliest memories about his family, about his grandparents or any of the other relatives that he remembers vividly and, tell us about, growing up in Grand Rapids. Mr. Jackoboice: Thank you, it‟s a real pleasure to be interviewed by you this rainy election evening. You asked about my present place in Grand Rapids community as you have so well and correctly stated, I am and have been president of the Monarch Road Machinery Company for forty-three years, which means only that I haven‟t had a promotion in a long time. We are probably perhaps the oldest machinery business in this part of the state, having been in �2 continuous operation in the machinery business since 1856 or, as of now, for one hundred and eighteen years. We represent the fourth and the beginning of the fifth generation, both in the business and in Grand Rapids. Interviewer has asked if I can recall some of the more significant things connected with my boyhood and youth in Grand Rapids. I actually, believe I could ramble on for several hours, perhaps several days, under the right set of circumstances where one thought, would lead to another. I was born and raised on the west side of Grand Rapids, approximately on the corner of Mount Vernon Avenue and Allen Street. This area has since been taken over by the expressway, however when I was a young man, growing up, this was one of the more significant and I might add, more beautiful neighborhoods in, on at least the west side of the river. I can recall many of the more famous families who were the nucleus of Grand Rapids society of that generation. To continue my, all of my grandparents were in Grand Rapids prior to eighteen fifty-three. Now this is no great tribute to me, I happened to be born into this, into these families. My grandfather William F. Hake was perhaps the earliest German or one of the early Germans at least to come into this area. He came from a town in Westphalia, Germany, sometimes remembered and called Westphallen by the older German residents. He came from a town, a village called Dunschede, D-U-N-S-C-H-E-D-E, which is near Attendorn which is in turn is northeast of Cologne, Germany. He came over here as an orphan boy, when he was somewhere between seventeen and eighteen years of age. His first position was in Detroit and he became a very close friend of the founder, I believe, of one of the early Detroit newspapers. I cannot recall whether it was the Detroit Free Press or the Detroit News. But he was a printer‟s devil and then later on he decided to go to Grand Rapids, Michigan and he walked the distance according to his diary. He lived in Lansing, Michigan for a very short time and he once laughingly said, but with some measure of regret, that he had an option on the land, there now stands the State Capital. He paid forty dollars for this option, which he later surrendered. He then moved to Grand Rapids and became involved with a man by the name of John Hanchett, who was a pioneer harness maker. The employment with this gentleman continued for a very brief time. After which he became involved with John Clancy who, history will recall, founded the first wholesale grocery in the Grand Rapids, or Western Michigan area. My grandfather married a lady, a very beautiful lady, I might add, by the name of Anna Maria Schettler, who was a native of Württemberg, province of Württemberg, Germany. Interviewer: Spell her last name for me. Mr. Jackoboice: Her name was S-C-H-E-T-T-L-E-R and her first names were Anna Maria. She came first to Chicago with her parents and I might add also, that her home city was Altensteig, which is in the Black Forest of Germany, not too far from Freiburg. I visited these places so I know where of I speak. She lived on a hill, and the significance that in her later married days, she �3 also lived on a hill, occupying a beautiful home which is now the site of the parking lot for Butterworth Hospital. It is on the southeast corner of Ransom and Crescent Street. She came, to get back however, she came from Chicago, and my grandfather and grandmother were married at St. Michael‟s Church in Chicago and it was said that one of the original Marshall Field family were in the wedding party. They came to Grand Rapids where my grandfather, because of his integrity and his thrift and his energy, was determined to be a success and I might add that he was. I can epitomize his career in this very brief statement that he came here as an orphan boy knowing practically nobody and when he died at 94 years of age, the City Hall flag was at half mast for three days. He was engaged during his lifetime in furniture manufacturing, lumbering, the wholesaling of liquor, he also had a wheelbarrow company and he was at one time treasurer of the city of Grand Rapids and placed into execution the bookkeeping system that was used until about oh, thirty, thirty-five years ago. Interviewer: When did he arrive here in Grand Rapids, George, when did your grandparents come after they were married? Mr. Jackoboice: My grandfather Hake arrived in Grand Rapids I would have to guess slightly but I‟m correct within three or four years, about 1850, I believe the correct date is 1847. Interviewer: Do you remember him? Mr. Jackoboice: Oh very, very vividly. He lived as I say, until he was ninety-four years of age. He was a very active man and right up until a week before he died he was, quite a stroller about town with his high silk hat and his gold cane. He was very meticulously dressed and a very popular and quite an interesting personality. He was known to have bet significant sums on whether it would, the temperature for example would drop to “X” degrees on a hot day or, if some candidate or other would win an election. He was nicknamed at times “Bet a Million Gates” in tribute to one of the more significant legendary characters of his generation. According to the stories that my mother and uncles told me, on two occasions he bet 15,000 dollars which was then a very high sum, on the outcome of presidential elections. Both times, fortunately he won. They had fifteen children, twelve of who lived to maturity, and the last one died only about two years ago. The last uncle was Louis F. Hake. His children were involved in their time with, merchandising, with coal, with insurance, with music, with medicine and practically all the facets of the business life of Grand Rapids. They were a very interesting family and they married into some rather well-known and well-established families. Currently one of the better known members in the local historical group is Dr. William F. Hake who was married to Clara Voigt, who was the lady, if you have gone thru the Voigt House, stands at the left as you enter and she is dressed in a bridal outfit as, at the entrance as I say of the parlor of their home. Interviewer: Excuse me; this is your Grandfather Hake? Mr. Jackoboice: This was his son. �4 Interviewer: No, I mean the man you started to talk about. Mr. Jackoboice: That‟s correct. Interviewer: Was your great grandfather; let‟s start over; who was the man who came here in the eighteen forties or fifties?Mr. Jackoboice: William F. Hake was my grandfather who came here in the early, prior to eighteen fifty. His son was also William F. Hake but he was a doctor. Interviewer: And he is the one who married… Mr. Jackoboice: He is the one who married the Voigt. To continue with my grandfather, William F. Hake, who should not be confused with his son who was also William Hake but who was a doctor and the doctor was the gentleman who was married to Clara Voigt. Continuing, however as I indicated with my doctor, with my grandfather William F. Hake, he was an inveterate athlete of sorts and until he was 93 years he swam every summer in Lake Michigan and by that I don‟t mean that he waded out up to his knees, he would go well over his height and swim for probably a quarter a mile along the shore line and up until the year before he died, this was his regular practice. He also would walk up and down Michigan Street hill because that led to and from his home; he had many friends along the route there including Mr. Kusterer of the Brewery. Kusterer was of an old Grand Rapids brewing family and was one of the persons who went down with the steamer Alpena as it was crossing from, I believe Grand Haven to Milwaukee, it was only by the most strange, strangest circumstances that William F. Hake did not make that trip, and that is of course another and very lengthy story. To continue with some of his children, and I cannot give, even a capsule history of all of the twelve surviving children because that would take far too many hours. But, Dr. William F. Hake was a very prominent physician and surgeon in Grand Rapids. They had no children and in each case they loved to travel. So they made frequent trips to Europe and at a time when travel was not as simple as in these days of jet transportation. He, among other things, donated all of his medical services to such charitable organizations as the Sisters of the Poor, the Sisters of the Good Shepherd which at that time had an institution which operated a laundry, and also took care of girls, who in the minds of many were delinquents; and also of Saint John‟s Home. His, in his medical career he amassed a reasonable amount of money and, of course his wife, Clara survived him and she became again, a resident of the old family home, the Voigt House on College Avenue. And the College Avenue home, of course has been so well recorded and documented that it probably should not be again mentioned her. My mother… Interviewer: Excuse me, when did Dr. Hake die? Mr. Jackoboice: Dr. Hake died of pernicious anemia about nineteen twenty-two, that‟s within, within a year or two either away. Interviewer: Did his wife live into the fifties, I think…. �5 Mr. Jackoboice; Yes, I would think well past the fifties. I often would have luncheon with her. She was very frankly, very, very fond of my wife, who was, whose maiden name was Helen Gast. And whenever we would meet down at any of the restaurants of the city, why they would always, she would always send a little remembrance over to my wife in the form of a friendly drink or equal. Interviewer: I just asked George about where Dr. Hake was buried because I had never found him on the Voigt lot. Now, you tell your story George. Mr. Jackoboice: Dr. Hake was buried at Mount Calvary Cemetery on the west side which is right off Leonard Street. Dr. Hake, it should be mentioned, was Catholic. His wife, Clara Hake was not. But at that time in history, there was a rule in the Catholic Church that non-Catholics could not be buried in a Catholic cemetery, so there was a little problem there which later was resolved in this way. Some time, some years after Dr. Hake had died, she, he was removed at her request, to a plot in Oakhill Cemetery, which is on the southeast side of the city, and it is, it was there that she later was buried. There was a huge granite cross placed on his grave by his widow at Mount Cavalry and ironically it was done by an outside stone mason and one of the uprights unfortunately was just a little bit off kilter. Now that has no real significance except perhaps one shouldn‟t patronize, especially in things like that, their own native trades‟ people. Interviewer: You were to talk about some other members of that generation of Hakes, besides Dr. Hake? Mr. Jackoboice: Yes…, there‟s one interesting story, if you don‟t mind, I‟ll go back to my grandmother‟s generation. Interviewer: Not at all. Mr. Jackoboice: My grandmother was, who was named, whose name was Anna Maria Schettler had a sister who was named Louisa. Now Louisa was a very, very beautiful girl. If you‟ve ever seen a picture of Southern Belle, which is a rather famous portrait, she was a very, she bore a very close resemblance to that person. Now, I never knew Louisa but Louisa lived in Chicago. She was first married to a man, I believe by the name of Miller. They had no children and Miller was very, very successful as a rathskeller operator in Chicago and this was certainly before the days of the Chicago fire, which really doesn‟t mean a thing except that it goes way back in early Chicago history. Louisa, as I indicated, was a very beautiful woman she had very, very many friends, she was very vivacious and vital and, suddenly Miller died and left her with a than considerable amount of money. Louisa then married a man somewhat older than she and he was a bona fide German count and, the story goes that, he was, he had the title of Count Von Dreisen, but he didn‟t necessarily have the money that, should accompany his title. Well, they lived in glory and traveled with the finest society in Chicago and my grandfather went off and chided her for being so reckless with her money and she said, “Well, Bill (my grandfather‟s name), I would only say this: That I would like to abide by your wishes Bill but I have nobody to leave this �6 money to except my sister, your wife and I have no need for saving it because it‟s more money than I could ever spend. Later on Count Von Dreisen died and Louisa found herself impoverished. She lived in a very modest apartment overlooking the boulevards on once she had ridden in glory with fine horses and furs and the best that Chicago could offer. And it was ironic that this lady who turned down any inheritance from her father, in favor of her sister had to ask, or had to call upon her brother-in-law to pay for her funeral. Interviewer: Now, was there other members of that Hake, of your mother‟s generation who were particularly interesting Mr. Jackoboice: My mother, of course, was Helen Matilda Hake; she was one of the three daughters of William F. Hake and Anna Maria Schettler, who lived to maturity. She went to Saint Mary‟s Academy, at Notre Dame, Indiana and she, often mentioned that Helen Studebaker, among others was one of her classmates. Helen Studebaker was, of course, was part of the old carriage family later to make the Studebaker automobile. She was married to my father Joseph Jackoboice, Edward, I‟m sorry, Edward Joseph Jackoboice and they had and I am the son of that union along with my brother Edward and four sisters. I will tell about them a little bit later. But my mother was a tremendously interesting person, she seemed to always had her suitcase packed and would be ready to travel at a moment‟s notice. She would, I‟m, sure drop any wifely chores to show her children a very good time, either by taking a walk to the park or engaging in games or anything of that nature. She was fun loving, she played the piano, she spoke fluent German and reasonably, fine French, she lived to be seventy-nine years of age and certainly, life never was the same again after she died. She was, as I say a tremendous person. And I‟m sure that sentiment is accurate also by my brother Edward and my sisters Frances, Rita, Helen and Ruth. And Helen and Ruth were twins. Helen died at twenty-seven; Ruth is the surviving twin, Rita the youngest died at seven years of age. Interviewer: Why don‟t you tell, tell us about the Jackoboice family, when they came to Grand Rapids, and what they first did, and anything you can think of interest in, along that line, George. Mr. Jackoboice: Thank you. The grandparents on my father‟s side were Frances Rasch; that was spelled R-A-S-C-H. She came from the Kingdom of Prussia, which is now, of course a part of Germany. My grandfather, Joseph Jackoboice, came from a border city in what was then known as the Duchy of Warsaw. And as the Kingdom of Poland and of course, it was a land that had suffered politically and economically because of its tri-partitions, by in turn, the concurrently I should say by the Austrians, the Prussians and the Russians. Joseph Jackoboice, according to the unconfirmed records, was born in Kalisz, which was a city in Poland which is 1800 years old, and was formally on the Amber route from the Orient to Eastern Europe and of course, eventually into Western Europe and he came. Interviewer: When was he born, approximately, George? �7 Mr. Jackoboice: My grandfather Joseph Jackoboice was born March sixteenth, eighteen twentyfour. He came to the United States, no later than eighteen fifty-two when he was twenty-eight years old. He came at a time, when migration from that part of the world was for political reasons, not economic. He came to this country with an education and he came with money. Almost immediately upon arrival here he established himself in business. And that explains why, when I said at the beginning of this interview that I represent the descendents of a family who had been involved in the machinery business in Grand Rapids continuously for one hundred and eighteen years. Interviewer: One question I have about the name Jackoboice, was that name spelled differently in the early days, is it a German name, or was it a Polish name or was a family of mixed origins? Mr. Jackoboice: I would believe, that the name was Anglicized or corrupted. The original spelling according to the best information we have was J-A-K-U-B-O-W-I-C-Z, which would by its ending be more Russian than probably Polish. He himself, almost immediately upon his arrival in Michigan, changed his name to Jackoboice. It is significant, however that in either version there are ten letters. So that in essence the name was Anglicized from probably phonetic reasons. But it was not shortened. Why he did this, nobody seems to know. I personally have spent a considerable amount of money in several trips to the old country to determine why he left. Although he was a very, very successful man in business and although he had the health, and the finances and the time to travel, he never did so. He always remained in Grand Rapids, Michigan and frankly there is very little that can be found, showing correspondence between this country and his native land. There are no letters, there is no documentation, why he came, nobody knows. He rarely ever spoke of it. And it‟s kind of a fascinating and very intriguing mystery. Interviewer: Then he had no brothers or sisters who came here, is that correct? Mr. Jackoboice: He came alone. He came alone and, when he came and I mentioned earlier that he was about, he came, he was born in 1824 and he came here in 1852. So he would have been approximately twenty-eight years of age. And at twenty-eight he obviously was beyond the age of military service so he did not come for military reasons. As I say again, it‟s a fascinating mystery, I don„t know except that, the name in its original spelling is a very well name, a very well known name in Poland. Whether he spoke languages other than Poland, Polish or English or German, I do not know but I believe he spoke all three, if not a fourth. His wife Frances Rasch, as I indicated came from the Kingdom of Prussia, from the town, from the town of Breslau. Her entire family came to Grand Rapids, into Kent County and many of them pioneered and homesteaded in the fruit and apple and peach orchards in the Conklin, Sparta and Wright areas. They still have these extensive orchards there. Another branch of her family went to Florence, Alabama and founded a village there by the name of St. Florian. And there‟s an old house there which was built by her brother which, in its time was a sort of miniature Gone-with- �8 the-Wind mansion. I don‟t know whatever happened to it, but it was when I last saw it twenty five years ago, it was then even very decrepit so it‟s probably fallen into decay by this time. Interviewer: Well, you spoke of your, the Hake family as being Roman Catholic, I‟m going to assume, that the Jackoboices were too and also I believe they had something to do with the beginning of Saint Mary‟s Parish on the West Side, is that correct? Mr. Jackoboice: That is, correct; both William F. Hake, Joseph Jackoboice and his wife, Frances Rasch Jackoboice were charter members of Saint Mary‟s Church. Mrs. William F. Hake was however, a charter member of the Lutheran Church on Michigan Street Hill. My grandfather, Jackoboice lived on the site, which is now occupied by the convent of Saint Mary‟s Church. Saint Mary‟s Church, incidentally is the ethnic, Catholic German church. It is the second oldest parish in the dioceses of Grand Rapids and it was, the church you see now, of course, followed the original church and the present church is pure Gothic and one must really go in there to see how beautiful it is, in the stained glass windows and the arrays of sacred vessels and vestments and so on but, are over there in the repository. You ever been in there? Interviewer: No, why don‟t you talk about your father and what, where he was born and where he went to school and things of that sort. Mr. Jackoboice: My father was one of the two surviving children of Joseph Jackoboice and Frances Rasch. The other children died either as infants or as young people in their late teens or early twenties. They had all met in one case, in the case of my Uncle George, for whom I am named, it was quite a blow to my father because he was only, it was his only living brother and he drowned off Manhattan Beach, as it was then known at Reed‟s Lake. My father told how he looked for him on this sultry August afternoon, and after everybody had given up searching for him, he continued and found his body in the early morning hours. He never got over the tragedy of his brother‟s drowning and only reluctantly ever would he go towards Reed‟s Lake. He however continued, his brother George by the way, was, I believe nineteen years old when this tragedy occurred. He was an excellent swimmer but apparently he was a victim of cramps and nobody saw him in time and they found his high wheeled bicycle out by the side of a tree. My father continued in the business established by his father. And that business was originally known as the Joseph Jackoboice Company and then later on, was renamed the Westside Ironworks and the extent of their manufacture, the scope of it included band saws, rip saws, cut off saws, fine woodworking machinery. I‟m a little bit ahead of myself, but prior to the manufacture of machinery, my grandfather manufactured sawmill and logging machinery, lumber recording instruments, steam engines and he also made a specialty of fire escapes which were installed on most of the early buildings of Grand Rapids and some of the ornamental iron still survives on some of the older buildings. Later on… Interviewer: Can you tell us, tell me where one could see examples of that ornamental ironwork? �9 Mr. Jackoboice: I‟m guessing a little bit on this, but I believe some of the railings, might appear and I‟d have to confirm this, on the, for example, the Ledyard Building along the side there, I believe. They also well on the late, and lamented and fire destroyed Cody Hotel, I know they had fire escapes and I used to kid my father about that because, it was quite a tragic situation and, but fire escapes wouldn‟t have helped anybody in that holocaust. But anyway….. Interviewer: The Cody or do you mean the other hotel across….. Mr. Jackoboice: I‟m sorry I meant the Livingston Hotel. The Cody was across the street and that was, I‟m so used to that because telling about that because the Cody Hotel was originally owned and operated by a relative of Buffalo Bill Cody. Later on, we continued in the manufacture of woodworking machinery; then later on became involved with the manufacturing of road machinery and road maintainers, and devices for the maintenance of highways and this occurred when the highway program of the United States was in its early days. And, quite often I would drive throughout the country with my father, visiting these various road commissions, many of them were not even known as road commissions because they had a sub-contract arrangements with farmers of a given township or county. And negotiations would be made on an individual basis. My father, I think, liked to travel around and be paid for it and he enjoyed it very much and of course this, as his chauffeur and son and companion why we had a great time together. Later on, after my father chose to retire, my brother and I assumed control of the business and is now known as the Monarch Road Machinery Company with a factory and offices on Michigan Street. We also own the building on the west side, one block south of Bridge Street which is known as the Old German English School Association Building, better known as the German School House. Many people like to believe that was the first building where we operated as a family but actually it was the fourth. The first building was on a site which is approximately where the Civic Auditorium is now. The second, was at an area now owned, now covered by the Olds Manor, historically however that was known as German Corners or Rasch or the Rasch House and that hotel was owned by my father and mother and an aunt. Interviewer: Which corner was that? Mr. Jackoboice: That was on the Northwest corner of Monroe and Bridge Street or Michigan. It is where the Olds Manor is now And they later on, they moved from there to a site on the west side of Grand River, approximately where the new Civic Theatre is scheduled to be built, approximately where the old inter-urban bridge terminates. The later on the German English School Society building was acquired by my grandfather and he converted to a factory. Interviewer: I think we‟re coming to the end of the, this side of the tape or fairly close to it so I think we‟ll turn the tape over at this point. Part Two of an interview with Mr. George Jackoboice. �10 Mr. Jackoboice: To continue, the business as I‟ve indicated previously has been variously known under different company names but has always been in full control and operation by the Jackoboice family. And during the business history, we as I have suggested before made sawmill machinery, logging machinery, then precision woodworking machinery, heavy road machinery and now we are concentrated in hydraulic power control systems and as such we sell these devices for the automatic control of things both in materials, handling, feeling, field, agricultural, automotive, the ready-mix industry and a great variety of applications, throughout the United States and Canada and probably 20 foreign countries. It is, I‟m sure a tribute to my grandfather and my father who, respectively founded the business and I‟m sure that we‟re all very grateful that because of their perseverance and industry that we survived as a tribute to the American concept of free enterprise. It is also I‟m sure worthy of a proud note, that both of my grandfathers William F. Hake and Joseph Jackoboice are memorialized in the permanent exhibits at the Grand Rapids Public Museum. And in each case they were leaders and pioneers of their respective, national origins, the one from Germany and the other Joseph Jackoboice who I‟m sure was the first by at least ten years, to be in Grand Rapids and he was certainly the pioneer of his nationality. I can only add that…. Interviewer: I wanted to ask you, what in, where in the public Museum would one go to find these memorials, memorializations of your grandparents? Mr. Jackoboice: They are in each case, on the second floor of the east building along the south wall, where they have the Heritage Hall. And there as you walk down this one hallway you‟ll run directly into the Germany exhibit and there‟s a picture there of William F. Hake and also of the old German English School House that I mentioned earlier which the Jackoboices owned and still own and immediately adjacent is the recognition of Joseph Jackoboice and the exhibit, which tells about the Polish ethnic background of the city. Interviewer: Go ahead. Mr. Jackoboice: You mentioned earlier, about some of the neighborhood interests, that I was privileged to enjoy on the west side. And of course when one goes by there now they will, they will notice that it is strictly commercial, industrial. And in no sense, does it reflect what it once upon a time was. For example, many of the old, of the older, and I would like to believe influential pioneers of Grand Rapids lived in that neighborhood. For example, directly across the street from my old boyhood home lived, the Voigts at that time, next door was T.W. Strahan. Interviewer: Excuse me, exactly where was your boyhood home, George Mr. Jackoboice: This home was at the corner of Mount Vernon and Allen Street; this was on the southeast corner. But it is entirely obliterated now because the expressway, in its construction was placed directly over the whole area within where I used to live. Directly … Interviewer: Go ahead. You mentioned the Voigts lived on one side and the Strahans. �11 Mr. Jackoboice: Strahans. Interviewer: How do you spell that? Mr. Jackoboice: S-T-R-A-H-A-N. Interviewer: Tell us about, go on with the…. Mr. Jackoboice: T.W. Strahan was a very well known man of his generation, as was his son I believe Tom. I don‟t really know what T.W. stood for but, I believe that was his father. Among other things they had a clothing store in the city which was a very popular place way back around the turn of the century, immediately adjacent was the old Bertsch Hall which was owned the Bertsch family and they, it was a huge three story house and on the third floor there was a ballroom. And of course this house was, in its glory days, was a tremendous place later on it became very decadent and I believe was since destroyed. Interviewer: Is that the Barclay Ayres and Bertsch family or….? Mr. Jackoboice: No. I don‟t believe it‟s that family. Interviewer: I see. Is Mr. Jackoboice: I don‟t know exactly the original… Interviewer: Is it spelled B-E-R-T-S-C-H? Mr. Jackoboice: I think so, I believe so. And then there was a gentleman by the name of Mordyke who lived, also nearby. Mordyke used to tell me that he once, was offered a partnership with Steketee of the department store, but he thought it was too much of a risk and rejected it. Much, I think, to his regret. Immediately next door to us was Anton Hirth who was a stone cutter and who was responsible for much of the stone work on the older buildings of Grand Rapids. And this particularly interesting to me because my grandfather Hake, provided the bond which was necessary for Mr. Hirth to get his first big contract, which was, I believe, on the old original Central High School, later to become Junior College on the corner of Lyon Street and.. Interviewer: And Ransom or Barclay? Mr. Jackoboice: Barclay, I believe, and Lyon. It is partly, it has been pretty much torn down the last few years and only the gymnasium of a much later vintage survives. In the area also, was Kutsche of the hardware store. And Kutsche, until he became an old man, was still very, very active in the business. It was later taken over by the firm of Brander and they‟re down on Leonard Street now. There was also Powers who built, the Powers Theatre, now the Mid-Town, but for many, many years housed the leading legitimate theatrical events of the city. He also owned the Powers and Walker Casket Company. And also in their area were the Knapes, of the Knape and Vogt Manufacturing Company, the family home was there. Liebermann of the �12 Liebermann and Gitlen Metal Company lived very modestly although he was certainly a very wealthy man in his time, lived also nearby. There was, Gill whose son Corrington Gill later became assistant Secretary of Commerce of the United States. There was a Drueke who is well known in the city now as the manufacturer of chess men. Also, Wurzburgs, of the department store lived, just a block away and I think that the, some of the problems of identifying the Wurzburg families and I emphasize the plurality is that according to my information Mr. Wurzburg was married three times. Each wife in turn died, but by each wife he had five children. And I think one of the, incidentally, our city commissioner, Abe Drasin, also lived around the corner and I was, I think, very much intrigued by the ethnic mix of the neighborhood at that time because many of the people have attained some measure of importance and significance in the community in later years, I grew up with and I think that would be true in other neighborhoods also, but I think that is especially significant to me. I think one of the most fascinating, and I‟m sure one of the most controversial figures I‟ve ever known, lived directly across the street and that was Edward N. Barnard sometimes know as Bernard, but we always knew him as Ed Barnard. Ed became, he was perhaps one of the youngest men ever to graduate from the University of Michigan Law school, graduating, I think when he was nineteen years of age, he became prosecuting attorney and there were a few problems involved with his tenure of office because it seemed that the electorate weren‟t too happy because he was away from his office more than he was present. Later on, Ed went to Detroit, Michigan and down there he attained considerable political prominence, both as a lawyer and also as a confidant and ally of Frank McKay. And I believe that between that Frank McKay with Ed Barnard ran the state of Michigan politically for twenty five years. Now I didn‟t know Ed legally, I knew him as a neighbor and I knew him socially. And I knew many of the nice things about Ed Barnard and those things I can never forget. For example, one day when my mother was sitting on the front porch of her house, Ed Barnard arrived and his house, which was staffed by a housekeeper, was in pretty bad decay so far as painting was concerned. So my mother said: “Ed, why don‟t you paint that house?” And Ed Barnard replied: “Well, Helen (my mother), why should I, I‟m never here?” And she said: “Because I sit here and have to look at it.” And he said: “I never thought of it that way, Helen.” That was Friday afternoon. Monday morning there were five painters there. But that‟s the way Ed Barnard was. When he died, according to the story, he left five Cadillacs, he had an estate in Detroit, complete with bridle paths and boat wells, yet he did not live there, he lived at a very modest apartment in the, I believe the Fort Shelby Hotel and took most of his meals over the slab of a soda fountain. And he had a chauffeur by the name of Henry, to whom he promised many things but, I think Henry never got much more than his thirty five dollars a week. And yet, Ed would be tremendously generous with other people. He, when he died, left several deposit boxes, and in these boxes for the most part was nothing but money. Bills to the amount of several million dollars, I think, the figure was around three. He also left one box that was solid with emeralds, diamonds, and significant pieces of expensive jewelry. The irony of the thing is that even though Ed Barnard was a lawyer, for many years a criminal lawyer, a practice which his father very much frowned against, because his father Bertram was sent here from Boston and he �13 was a very strict and ardent believer in the Bible and frankly supported missionaries around the world, Bertram, his father told me personally, that he was aghast at Ed‟s practice and told him unless he became involved in a more legitimate type of operation that, he would have to limit his visits, and Ed for all his failings, if you choose to call them that, adored his father. And Ed went to corporation law. And he would often ask me to visit him in Detroit. But Ed was really an egomaniac. He would use a person as a display for himself and you can refer to the rather interesting articles that appeared upon his death. And I think they‟ll attest pretty much to this flamboyance and theatrical qualities; the irony of it is also that, Ed Barnhard died without a will. And most of that money that he had acquired, I believe was for one reason or another contested by the Internal Revenue Service. How much of it went to the family, I really don‟t know. Interviewer: Did he have a family of his own? Mr. Jackoboice: Ed Barnhard was married very briefly to a lady by the name of Estelle Skinner. The Skinners were a very, very fine and well regarded family in the city. I believe they were married for a year for I am guessing, but perhaps a year and they were divorced. From this union they had one child. Why were they divorced, I don‟t know but, whenever Ed Barnard would return to Grand Rapids, he would always, literally have a date with his divorced wife and, you would think they were on their honeymoon. They were ardently, appeared to be ardently in love and yet, I guess they couldn‟t live together. She owned, I believe the Manufacturers building downtown, is that it… Interviewer: Which building is that….? Mr. Jackoboice: That‟s where Junior College had its offices down. It was a display, it was a Interviewer: You mean in that, farther down… Mr. Jackoboice: Yes, across from Klingmans, in that area. Interviewer: Yes, I know where it is…. Mr. Jackoboice: Yes, and that was owned by the Skinner family and Ed Barnard later on, through his wife who had died, and by the way, Ed couldn‟t have been more gracious, more beneficent to anybody than he was to his wife. She had a malignancy, I think a bone malignancy, bone cancer and he hired the best specialist in the country and provided her with every need. Ed was also marvelous to his mother. And his mother by the way was a brother, sister I should say of Frank Knox who was later Secretary of the Navy of the United States and I believe Vice President. And whenever, Ed was in town, Frank quite often would visit him. And so we did have some rather significant nationally known neighbors even back, forty some years ago. Ed always regarded us as a friend and I liked him tremendously. He was eccentric, he was a maverick, he was exciting, and I tell you, there was never a dull day when Ed was home visiting with his father and his mother and sisters. �14 Interviewer: Let‟s go back to you a little bit, where did you first go to school? And tell us about your school life. Mr. Jackoboice: I personally, attended Saint Mary‟s Parochial School, which is a Catholic school and all the morning classes in those years were in German until the beginning of World War One, when it was not considered patriotic to continue the use of the German language, as I mentioned earlier, my father and mother both spoke fluent German: I spoke reasonably good German until I was seven or eight years old. I continued on at Saint Mary‟s and then I went to Catholic Central High School. I played football there. I later went to Davenport Institute then known as the Davenport-McLaughlin Institute, a business school for a year, then I went on to the University of Notre Dame where I graduated in nineteen thirty one, in the department of journalism. And it‟s perhaps you wonder how I could reconcile journalism and the machinery business. Well, one is an avocation, the business I grew up in ever since I was a lad, I would spend much of my free time down at the factory either making toys and boats on the band saws and sometimes cutting my fingers in the process, but I did continue and graduated in journalism and upon my graduation from Notre Dame in nineteen thirty one, I entered the business in, I‟d been active there ever since. My three sons are also in the business as is my brother and his son James. Interviewer: I‟d like to go back again ad ask you about that period of life when you were at Saint Mary‟s and perhaps at Catholic Central also. Did you have what, what was your social life like in those days? Or when you were little did you, were your friends confined to your immediate neighborhood or did you, when you went to Catholic Central did you meet an entirely different, new group of people, just give me some thoughts on that if you will. Mr. Jackoboice: Thank you, when I was at, when I was growing up, I was very fortunate to have had, to have through my parents and my family connections, an acquaintanceship with a great many of the older residents of the city, the older families. And frankly, these names that I, of which I speak, there are many, many more which have so far been unmentioned, because of the time limitations…were frankly dinner table conversation. And because of that, with my father and mother who were very knowledgeable on many things, we enjoyed a great family life, and we travelled a great deal and that continued all through my youth. Later on of course when I was in high school, pretty much the same pattern of life prevailed except that then I was in my teens. Later on when I attended the University of Notre Dame, I became, I suppose more nationally minded because of the national character of the school. Most of the students there were from areas other than the Midwest, I don‟t say all of them, but a great many of them were from all over the United States plus many foreign lands. It‟s also perhaps of some interest in connection with Notre Dame that my grandfather, William F. Hake and my grandmother Mrs. Hake traveled extensively to Europe and is believed that on one of these trips they met Father Edward Sorin, who was the founder of the University of Notre Dame. And because my grandfather then had nine sons, he enjoyed this connection very much and all nine sons went to Notre Dame University and for many years it was perhaps the largest single family, to have attended Notre �15 Dame. Gregori the famous Italian artist who painted the murals, in the main building and in the church and also in the Golden Dome also painted life-size portraits of my grandfather and grandmother. These portraits now are in our home. The original organ at the old Sacred Heart Church at Notre Dame was bought by my grandfather and presented to Saint Mary‟s Church in Grand Rapids, where it remained until it was replaced, oh probably thirty years ago. It was a tremendous instrument and I don‟t think that the organists ever were equal to its wide range of pipes and possibilities. But that relationship of Notre Dame University and its principals prevailed for many years. When my grandfather and grandmother would be at the University they would share a suite in the administration building down there as a special guest of the president and the staff of the University. When my grandfather died, a delegation came from the University to pay tribute to him, at his funeral. Interviewer: I‟d like to go on a little further. Now your family, up to a certain point, pretty much lived on the West Side but you‟re not, you haven‟t lived there for a long time and when did people begin to move out of that area, members of your family, that is? Mr. Jackoboice: We continued to live on the West Side, I did until my marriage on June 17th 1936 to Helen Gast, who was the daughter of Peter and Emily Gast, were I‟m sure, a well known family in business and society in the city. We lived for a very brief period of time, after our marriage on the west side near John Ball Park. Later we moved on Auburn Avenue and then for the last, approximately twenty five years, we‟ve lived here at Park Hills Drive, in a suburb known as Cascadia, which is immediately, which is in Grand Rapids Township and directly across from East Grand Rapids. But we‟re living in a pastoral area which is a very fine neighborhood and one, where my three sons were raised and fortunately two of the three are now, also our neighbors and each case living only two blocks away. My oldest son lives in Spring Lake. And then of course, he enjoys it very much down there too. Interviewer: I‟m rather interested in your house; it‟s a very beautiful home. I don‟t believe you built it, is that correct? Mr. Jackoboice: This house is one of the oldest in this particular residential area. It was built, I would believe, in the middle nineteen twenties. I understand that the man who began it, at that period of time, had extravagant ideas and somehow, was not able to finance it adequately so he left it uncompleted and sold it to a man by the name of Alex Sergeant. Alex, with his wife and his son Snover(?) and daughter Phyllis, lived here until we acquired it and we have added to it quite significantly, we‟ve added where we‟re sitting now, a library in walnut, which is a very beautiful room and I say that not so much in tribute to me but, in a tribute to Warren Rindge who, was probably one of the finest of the traditional architects that this city has ever known. Warren was educated abroad among other things and is, and to attest to his ability he was also on the State Historical Commission and his particular emphasis was on historic doings of Mackinac Island. You‟ll see his name mentioned up there and he often attended the meetings at the island, at the Grand Hotel. Warren died about a year ago and his wife died, just very recently. But he �16 was a tremendous architect for this type of traditional building and it certainly, every time I told him in his lifetime and I remind myself afterwards, that its one of the more significant things that, I think he‟s done. Interviewer: Now, I know you have a large family and, have many cousins in addition to your immediate family but, and I‟m sure that your family and your business take a good deal of your time but [do] you have other social interests or clubs that you belong to that you enjoy in Grand Rapids? Mr. Jackoboice: Yes, I belong to the Peninsular Club where I‟ve been a member many years. I belong to Cascade Hills Country Club, I also belong to the Sierra Club and I have been a member of Hidden Valley at Gaylord for many, many years. I think I have a little sand in my shoes because I love to travel much to my wife‟s dismay at times because she said she can go to Vienna probably easier than she can to Toronto. But, over the years, beginning in nineteen thirty, I traveled to Europe and in the trip of nineteen thirty and again in nineteen thirty-four; I traveled by bicycle throughout Western Europe and in some of the areas what are now back of the Iron Curtain. But I knew those, I knew the area then, when it was an independent, they were independent countries like Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Austria, and Poland. I did not get into Russia although I tried because at that time the United States did not recognize the Soviet Union. Even though we had the co-operation of the State Department, we were a little bit reluctant to go because of the hazardous, political situation. But nevertheless we did, with a friend travel by bicycle throughout Western Europe. Then again in nineteen thirty-four, I made a similar trip alone, taking in many of the areas that I missed the first time. Subsequently I have been around the world, traveling throughout the Orient into Malaysia, Indonesia, India, up in Afghanistan, Iran, throughout the Mediterranean countries, all of Western Europe, quite a few times. And I enjoy it immensely and like to read and reminisce about these areas because I think that when you have memories and have an interest in foreign lands, you have an interest in people and you recognize their good qualities of all these races and nationalities. And I think it‟s a tremendous advantage, in both in your business and your way of looking at life. You get a really a philosophy of life rather than psychology of living. And I think there‟s a big difference in that term. Interviewer: I‟d like to go back and cover an area that I should have covered, should have asked you about a little bit earlier. Grand Rapids was one of those cities during the depression that was fairly hard hit, especially the furniture industry. Was your business badly affected at that time? Mr. Jackoboice: Yes, certainly it was affected and I might add that I learned more basic lessons in economics than I ever did in all the economics, or business courses that I ever pursued at the university. You learned many things that were not taught in books and it‟s been most helpful in my business career ever since. We of course, Grand Rapids was severely disturbed at that time by the economic problems of its day, but in the overall, I don‟t think I ever had more fun, on a more modest budget, and I think that was true of any of our contemporaries, and I‟m speaking of �17 course, of the interviewer also. We were, everybody was pretty much in the same financial plight, so I think people then would boast how little they earned a week rather than how much. Business-wise, we did at the time a considerable business with governmental agencies and of course, they were, their obligations were either deferred or denied completely and so it was a long time before the businesses in general became solvent and life became to assume a little different hue. I‟m not going to say that one way is more pleasant than the other. I think each has its place in our lives and I‟m sure that we‟re all, we all who have lived through the depression and we‟re better for it. Do you agree with that? Interviewer: Well. I don‟t remember it as vividly as you do, but I think I do, I do have that rather, some rather vivid memories and I think, some of my younger friends would behave a little differently if they had known what I knew in those days. One other, and we‟re sort of running out of time at this point, and I‟d like to ask a question, sort of a general question which I‟ve phrased in different ways when I‟ve talked to other people. And the question is this: What do you think is the most significant change in the city or in the country or in the world that you can recognize in your lifetime? Is that too difficult a question? Mr. Jackoboice: Well, with reverence, probably is so broad it‟s flat, and I think anybody who could answer that completely could copyright the formula and retire for a life on the income. But, I think that somehow, people are, I think, that the pride of accomplishment and the pride of doing a good job, no matter how humble it is, is quite lost in today‟s society. And there‟s too much of the attitude of „what‟s in it for me?‟ Which up to a point, I suppose reasonable to expect where economics have a very viable part of our lives, however I think life would be much more pleasant and enjoyable and the economic gains would follow if people were more dedicated to their lives and to their work, they would, in spite of themselves profit by it. Interviewer: I‟ve got another question, I haven‟t asked this one but, I think you are young enough to look towards the future, some of the other people I‟ve interviewed have really been very close to the end of their lives. I wonder what you think about the future of Grand Rapids. Mr. Jackoboice: Well, I think, the future of Grand Rapids is tremendous. I‟m a little bit awed by your preface about this item of age. You can be either in the old age of your youth or in the youth of your old age. I think, I prefer to be in my youth of old age Philosophically you can say well there‟s, if you can say the glass is half empty that‟s bad, if you say it‟s half full, that‟s great. Well, I believe it‟s half full. Grand Rapids for the future, I would personally love to see a revitalization, resurgence of the downtown area of Grand Rapids. I have longed been the champion of that. And I think it‟s too bad that the thing has been permitted to deteriorate. Now, I know that economics, over which many have had no control have entered into this problem, but that the same people who probably permitted it to happen, should also be instrumental in its revival. And I think, that it‟s some of these things really are quite basic and I think, the pursuit of these, better things is, such as have long been planned should be finalized and I really don‟t think that there is too much difficulty once, and I think this is an important thing, once you make a �18 start. It‟s just like when people, when a man on an autumn afternoon rakes the leaves, pretty soon a dozen other people are doing the same thing because they‟re more or less inspired by his example. Maybe in some measure that‟s what could happen to our city. Interviewer: Well, thank you Mr. Jackoboice, George, for this very interesting interview. This will go into the archives of the Grand Valley, Grand Valley State Colleges, and who knows, perhaps somebody will be listening to our voices a hundred years hence or perhaps, later even than that. Well, but we‟ll never; we won‟t live long enough to know, I think we‟ll conclude it now. INDEX B Barclay Ayres Family · 12 Barnard, Ed · 13, 14 Bertsch Family · 11, 12 Bertsch Hall · 11 C Hidden Valley at Gaylord · 17 Hirth, Anton · 12 J Jackoboice, Edward Joseph (Father) · 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 15 Jackoboice, Helen Gast (Wife) · 1, 5, 16 Jackoboice, Helen Matilda Hake (Mother) · 3, 4, 6, 10, 13, 15 Jackoboice, Joseph (Grandfather) · 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 Jackoboice, Uncle George · 8 Cascade Hills Country Club · 17 Catholic Central High School · 15 Clancy, John · 2 Cody Hotel · 9 K D Klingmans · 14 Knape and Vogt Manufacturing Company · 12 Knox, Frank · 14 Kusterer, Mr. · 4 Kutsche, Mr. · 12 Davenport Institute · 15 Detroit Free Press · 2 Drasin, Abe · 13 G Gill, Corrington · 12 Grand Rapids Public Museum · 10 H Hake, Clara · 5 Hake, Dr. William F. · 3, 4 Hake, Louis F. · 3 Hake, William F. (Grandfather) · 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 12, 16 Hanchett, John · 2 L Liebermann and Gitlen Metal Company · 12 Livingston Hotel · 9 M Machinery Company · 1, 10 Marshall Field Family · 2 McKay, Frank · 13 Miller, Louisa Schletter · 5, 6 Miller, Mr. · 5 Mordyke, Mr. · 12 �19 P Peninsular Club · 17 Powers and Walker Casket Company · 12 R Rasch, Frances (Grandmother) · 7, 8 Reed‟s Lake · 8 Rindge, Warren · 17 S Saint Mary‟s Parochial School · 15 Schettler, Anna-Maria (Grandmother) · 2, 5, 16 Sergeant, Alex · 17 Sierra Club · 17 Skinner Family · 14 Skinner, Estelle · 14 Sorin, Father Edward · 16 Steketee's · 12 Strahan, T.W. · 11 Studebaker, Helen · 6 U University of Notre Dame · 6, 15, 16 V Voigt, Clara · 3, 4 Von Dreisen, Count · 6 W Wurzburg, Mr. · 13 Wurzburg‟s · 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d03981b367b88f09d26c9d27366abcb6.mp3 a872d47800d66102aaa050b78c392d1f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_43Jackaboice Title A name given to the resource Jackoboice, George Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jackoboice, George Description An account of the resource George Jackoboice was born in 1908. He graduated from the University of Notre Dame in 1931. He was a member of the Peninsular club and the Cascade Hills Country Club. He co-owned the family business, Monarch Road Machinery Co. He died on January 10, 1987. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bce7a773d89015269d1fec51a9b34f6c.pdf 169058ef9eec272619643f944aeda675 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. and Mrs. George (Helen) Jackoboice Interviewed November 5, 1974 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010-bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 52 (1:33:37) Biographical Information George Adolphe Jackoboice was born 17 June 1908, the son of Edward J. Jackoboice and Helen Matilda Hake. George was married to Helen Gast about 1937. George passed away 12 January 1987 in Grand Rapids and is buried at Mt. Calvary Cemetery. He was chairman of Monarch Hydraulics, Inc. Besides three sons and their families, George was survived by his wife, Helen. Helen Gast was born 7 August 1910 in Grand Rapids and was the daughter of Peter B. Gast and Emily Alt. Helen died 31 December 2008 in Grand Rapids at the age of 98 years. Helen‟s father, Peter Gast was born in Westphalia, Michigan in 1874, the son of Bernard and Teressa (Platte) Gast. Helen‟s mother, Emily Alt was born in Grand Rapids about 1875, the daughter of Nicholas Alt. The parents were married in Grand Rapids on 29 June 1899. ____________ Interviewer: But you were related to Mrs. Hake‟s family? George: Yes. Is it your grand, your mother or was… Interviewer: George: My? Interviewer: How‟s that? George: Clara Voigt Hake, and I differentiate because I also had a Clara Jackoboice, who was an aunt. But Clara Voigt was married to my mother‟s brother. Interviewer: Yes. George: Interviewer: Doctor William F. Hake. Yes. George: That‟s the background, and but as families we had been well acquainted of course for several generations. Not… Interviewer: George: And you‟re an old Grand Rapids family too, right? Yes, we are. �2 Interviewer: Is it your daughter-in-law, Barbara Jackoboice, who teaches French? Both George and Helen: Yes. Helen: That‟s Tom‟s wife. I have a friend who‟s taking French lessons from her. Interviewer: Helen: Oh, really. Interviewer: Yes, it‟s Peggy Strong and she‟s doing a Smith‟s Club tour of France this year and she‟s brushing up on conversational French… Helen: Oh, I see. Interviewer: …with Barbara, yes. George: Barbara‟s very proficient. Helen: Oh, she‟s lovely, very lovely. George: She graduated from Stanford but spent a year in Paris at the Sorbonne. Interviewer: So she speaks French like French people. Oh, yes fluently. She lived with a French family when she was… George: Interviewer: Well, that‟s nice. You‟re younger than any of the Hake brothers though, aren‟t you or the Voigt brothers? George: Helen: Oh, yes. They were really friends of the family. George: My family. My mother and my father. Interviewer: George: I was going to say that you, that they would be. Oh, another generation, oh yes. Interviewer: Another generation removed from you. You remember any of them though? The Hakes, Voigts? Interviewer: George: Yes, did you know them well? Knew them all. Interviewer: Yes. Yes, because we‟d gotten in some interesting things. I had a talk last week to a gal who‟s a secretary in the Voigt mills, you know? �3 Helen: Yes. She worked for Frank mostly. And… Interviewer: That‟s a long time ago. George: Interviewer: George: Yes. Oh, this is right after the First World War Yes. Cause he has been dead for years. Interviewer: Helen: Who was that? Interviewer: Helen: Yes. Her name was Mildred Schulz and … Did you know her, George? George: No, but Mary Orth, worked over there for years and years. Unfortunately, now Mary Orth, if she were alive would tell you an awful lot. Helen: She‟s gone. Interviewer: Yes, she‟s well, this Miss Schulz said she couldn‟t remember but one person that she thought worked in the offices over there that might still be alive, besides herself. And she‟s just a pretty old lady. Her memory wasn‟t good on dates when things had happen. She was in think well up in her eighties. And it was funny cause the week before I talked to a Mrs. McLachlan who was the daughter of the man, who built the house. A man named Jungbaecker, John Jungbaecker. And I think he built for the Hake family. George: Hotel. Interviewer: George: Interviewer: Yes. I think he also built, I‟m guessing, but I think, he also built the old Charlevoix Oh, did he? Where the Olds Manor is now, my family once owned. Oh, I didn‟t know that. George: Well, originally it was known as the Rasch House way back in early history. Frances Rasch is my grandmother. And then the Rasch House was replaced by a hotel called the Clarendon. And then the Clarendon had a name change and was called the Charlevoix. Because a man by the name of Bedford, who had the island house in Charlevoix, had a second operation in Grand Rapids and that was the Charlevoix Hotel. We did not operate the hotel. We owned the building and the land and leased it to Bedford. Bedford incidentally was one of the two men who killed, murdered King Strang. Remember the story of…? �4 Interviewer: Yes, Bedford was …. George: Interviewer: George: Helen: Yes, I remember very well. We always said he was so dapper in his youth. He was. Interviewer: Are you also a native of Grand Rapids? Yes, my maiden name was Gast. So Peter was my father. Interviewer: George: Helen: One of the better known murder cases around here. You remember old Bedford? George: Helen: Oh yes, I remember reading that, in the old papers. Oh, yes. A well known family. Gast Motor Sales. My mother was an Alt. Interviewer: Well, that‟s interesting. You both have such deep roots. George: Well, yes, you see this is all interwoven traditionally and historically with originally the west side. Of course… Interviewer: George: there. Now was your family a west side family originally? Originally except my mother. She was born on the hill up on Ransom & Crescent Interviewer: Oh, yes, right on top of it. George: You see her maiden name was H-A- K-E; which is the maiden name or which is the name of her brother who married Clara Voigt. The, I‟m almost tempted… Interviewer: George: That parking lot occupies the site now. Interviewer: George: Helen: Ransom & Crescent would be where the hospital was. Yes. It‟s a… I have, excuse me. [George leaves to retrieve some items] This must be interesting work for you. Interviewer: It‟s fun for me. I came here about four years ago and part, I was then in the process of trying to get my master‟s degree which I‟ve since given up on because I was working �5 out of an Ohio university. I was too far along and couldn‟t transfer enough credits. But in the course of doing some work. I did a lot of research into early Michigan history. I got just fascinated with Grand Rapids so I consequently took a course at Michigan history and wrote a paper on Grand Rapids „cause I think it‟s so fascinating. Helen: Well, how wonderful. Well, it‟s just fascinating. Interviewer: Helen: Oh, I‟d love to read it. Interviewer: Well, the interesting part of it was trying to explain how Grand Rapids came to be here, because it didn‟t really have all the natural advantages of some of the other cities. And yet it got to be the second biggest city in the state. And I worked on the, trying to explain why. [George returns into the room] George: This was a program on the occasion of my grandfather and grandmother‟s Fiftieth wedding anniversary. Interviewer: George: Oh, and this would be William Hake? And this is the picture when they were married. Interviewer: Yes, isn‟t that nice? And then as you turn the pages you‟ll, that‟s when they were on their Fiftieth George: Isn‟t that beautiful? They were two fine looking people. Interviewer: George: Yes, they were. Interviewer: Helen: Is she in the portrait over the mantel? Yes. Interviewer: I thought, but, that was taken at a younger age than this but she‟s a very handsome woman. Oh, this tells the family history then. George: Yes, pretty much till that time. Interviewer: And he also was German background. George: Oh, yes. Interviewer: I wasn‟t sure what the name Hake was. �6 George: He came from a little town called Dunschede, which is northwest of Cologne [Germany]. Interviewer: George: Have you been back there? Oh, yes. Interviewer: Chased down your family? George: Yes, we go to Europe quite often. Then, she was born in Altensteig in the Black Forest, Germany, which is near Freiburg. Interviewer: Helen: You mentioned the home is shown somewhere there too, a picture. Such a pretty old home. Interviewer: Helen: She had, they had fifteen children. Interviewer: George: Which one was your mother? My mother was Matilda, Helen Matilda. Interviewer: George: Matilda. She was one of the younger children. Yes, she was Interviewer: George: She was quite a bit younger than Doctor Hake, wasn‟t she? Yes, but they were very close. Interviewer: George: Helen: Oh, how many children there were? Yes, oh, isn‟t this neat? Course everything. You must tell about his love for the, not having any children of their own… George: Doctor Hake graduated, I believe from the University of Michigan (I‟ll have to check that). And they never had a family of their own. That is the Doctor and Clara, but he was, he offered his services free, as long as he lived, to St. John‟s Home to the villa, the Sisters of the Good Shepherd which is now Villa Maria. The Sisters of the Poor. And he did all the… Interviewer: …did all their medical for free - for the children. Interviewer: Gee, that was remarkable. �7 George: He did all that as long as he lived. He was a quite charitable man. I think that probably folly for me to presume, but I would believe that he was disappointed he didn‟t have a family. Interviewer: Yes, cause in those days people had pretty large families. Yes and the Voigts were large family too originally. Interviewer: That‟s right. Well, you now once in a while when we‟re working around the Voigt house we pick up the, pick up a story that somehow the family, the mother and father didn‟t approve of the children getting married. And we have heard yes and no on that, from different people. Do you have any knowledge of how they felt about that? George: other. Interviewer: George: I know that, I believe Frank whom you mentioned never married and I forget the Carl was married there for awhile, wasn‟t he? Well, you never knew much about that was always kind of a… Interviewer: That‟s an interesting thing, because I met this little old ninety-one-year old that remembers his wife as being very beautiful. George: Interviewer: George: Interviewer: George: And Ralph never married. No, I know that. That isn‟t to say they probably on occasion didn‟t have an affair, but I don‟t know. But they never officialized it. No, no no. Interviewer: Never settled down and had a family. That‟s interesting. This house that your, that shows here, now where was this house? George: Interviewer: George: Interviewer: George: Interviewer: George: That‟s where the parking lot of the Butterworth Hospital. This is Ransom and Crescent? Yes, that‟s where it is now. There‟s nothing left. There‟s nothing left of it. And that‟s a beautiful house. Yes, it was a large, large grounds there. It must kill you to see what happens to some of the beautiful old houses. Yes, �8 Helen: It really does. Interviewer: It‟s a nice thing to have that. George: The others, of course, the doctor and Clara went to Europe, I don‟t know on how many different visits, but I know that, see he was Catholic, she was not. Interviewer: George: Interviewer: George: Interviewer: George: Interviewer: George: Yes, she was an Episcopalian. She was buried in St. Mark‟s church, absolutely. She also had very friendly relationships with the Catholic Church. Oh, yes. That‟s right. „Because she was widowed I understand and did a lot of things for them. Yes, she was a, you obviously never knew her. No, no. Of course, Helen I think was her favorite in-laws. Helen: She was very, very nice to me. I remember the time that my engagement was going to be announced and my sister had a formal tea for me. So I invited, of course, the aunts that were living and I didn‟t know her but she did come to the tea. And I always remember she sent me just a beautiful bouquet of flowers and a corsage. She wanted to wear that day because… Interviewer: Wasn‟t that sweet? Helen: I thought that it was very sweet. And so on every, we were married on the seventeenth of June and so on every seventeenth of June, every anniversary, I had a phone call at eight o‟clock in the morning saying, “Hello.” She had a very deep voice, she‟d say, “Do you know who this is? This is your Aunt Clara wishing you a happy anniversary.” Well, I thought it was very sweet. I always have very nice memories of her because she was so nice to me. And on various occasions we would be at a restaurant, maybe at the Pen Club or at the Schnitzlebank and a drink would be set before us. Now maybe we didn‟t see her with her brothers in the corner and it would be compliments of the Voigts. Interviewer: Wasn‟t that nice? Helen: So that‟s my little story as an in-law. Interviewer: Oh, that‟s a really nice one. George: You see the, we‟ve been in the machinery business in Grand Rapids for a hundred and eighteen years. �9 Interviewer: What firm are you? George: Monarch Road Machinery Company. Originally it was, or prior to the Monarch Road Machinery it was known as the West Side Iron Works. And before that it was know under my grandfather‟s name, Joseph Jackoboice. Well. The building…. Interviewer: George: He was French, originally No, he was not. Interviewer: He‟s not? Interviewer: I was just guessing. George: Well, that‟s an interesting story. I won‟t be too long at it, but actually first of all my grandmother Hake came from Altensteig, my grandmother Rasch came from Breisgau and my grandfather came from Westphalia. But my grandfather Jackoboice came from a border city which was then Duchy of Warsaw and but was adjacent as a border city to the kingdom of Prussia. Actually, officially he was no, he was born according to unconfirmed reports it‟s hard to get any verification because the records have been in such disarray, some of them were bombed out in World War Two. He was actually born in Poland. Interviewer: Was he born in the Corridor, the Polish Corridor? George: No, no it was further south. It was in that area well, Bohemia was in there and so on. Like many of the old families in town here, the Rasches or the Herpolsheimers for example, came from what generally is known as Bohemia and so on. And he came to this country alone. He came when there were less than seven thousand people of his nationality in this country. Interviewer: George: What year was that? Eighteen fifty-two. Interviewer: Yes, he was an early arrival. George: He came with an education and he came with money. And he never spoke of his past. He never corresponded. He was a very, very successful man but he lived, he had good health until he died. Never looked back. Interviewer: George: Interviewer: George: Did he drop, did he drop his accent and come, make an effort to learn English. Oh, he spoke English beautifully. He never spoke in his native language? I don‟t know. „Cause he was born before I. �10 Helen: He spoke in German; we never knew it, until about a few years ago. George: My father and my Aunt Clara Jackoboice, now that‟s Clara the other Clara, spoke beautiful German. They wrote the old German script. But why this man came here alone he obviously didn‟t come over because of any military problem because he was past that age, he as I say came with an education, because he came with money. Interviewer: Maybe investment. George: Well, at the time, at the time that people came in eighteen fifty-two, in the eighteen fifties, in general, they came for political reasons, not for economic reasons. Interviewer: George: That would be before Bismarck, wouldn‟t it? Yes, it was after Metternich. Interviewer: That‟s right, just after Metternich. George: The Congress of Vienna. He was born in eighteen twenty-four. But it‟s kind of a mystery as to why; he was the first, absolutely the first of his nationality to be in Grand Rapids one of the very first to be in the United States. Well, anyway that‟s a long and different story. But… Interviewer: George: And he came and set up immediately than as a… In business, yes. He was very, very successful and the business continues now. Interviewer: Under the same family. George: Same family. But the building you see on this started with the Voigts, the building you see on the west side of the river which is red and white is called the old German Schoolhouse, was his factory. It wasn‟t his first, it was his fourth. Helen: When that‟s all lit up at night. George: Interviewer: George: Interviewer: George: Interviewer: George: Interviewer: Yes. Oh, yes. You see it from the Civic Auditorium. And that was your family‟s original or fourth one? It still is. We still own it. You still own it. We illuminate it at night and …. Did you keep it as a historic…? �11 George: Yes, it‟s on the roster of the city‟s historic buildings, officially, declared by the city commissioner about a year ago. And, but right across the street were the two old Star Mills which were also owned by the Voigts. Now the mills that… Interviewer: Was the Crescent Mill very far from the Star Mill? George: It was three blocks away, three blocks north of the Star Mills. I mean the Crescent Mills were at Pearl Street and the Star Mills were near Bridge Street. The Star Mills were kind of a secondary manufacturing... Interviewer: George: The Crescent Mill was the big operation. Yes, yes. Interviewer: And that was a rolling mill for, first row, I mean they took up rolling mill rather than grindstone. George: Well, I don‟t know, possibly they had. But they were of course originally you know they were partners with Herpolsheimers, the store, you‟ve heard that, of course. Do you know Bill Hardy in town here? Interviewer: No, I don‟t. George: Well, Bill was a Herpolsheimer. Interviewer: Is that why they have the Hardy-Herpolsheimer‟s Store at Kalamazoo? George: Yes, well I guess part of the reason. Interviewer: That‟s part of the reason? George: But, the Voigts of course with my father well his company always did all the millwright work, in the mills. So there was a strong business relation between the Voigts and ourselves, as well as family relationship. Interviewer: Now you made machine too machinery. George: Oh, yes. We were manufacturers, yes but we also used to do they used to build steam engines and things saw-mill machinery log-mill machinery. Band saws, rip saws. Now we‟re entirely power hydraulic controls and systems. Actually we don‟t make any road machinery. It‟s all sophisticated devices for operating other components on other people‟s products and so on. Interviewer: Someone starts a machine you have things in there that keep it going. �12 George: Yes, for example this is farfetched but in Disneyland in Florida for example, I bet you we must have twenty-five to fifty of our controls, that help control the automation. And they‟re all hidden you never see them. Interviewer: So you‟re actually in the systems controls business now rather than the fabrication of metals. George: Yes, we (???) it‟s all very much involved in some oil hydraulics or in a segment of it. So, but anyway, because of that „across the street‟ connection and „three blocks away‟ connection, why the Voigts of the Voigt people were in our place all the time. Back in those days of course more things were done by horse and buggy and on foot that now as and it was very informal. And the Leitelts, I don‟t know if you‟ve ever heard that name? Interviewer: No, I haven‟t. George: But Adolph Leitelt and my father were very close friends. Well, years once upon a year, there was a, my father and his company had always done most of the major maintenance. Well in spite of this close family tie and also the relationship with the Leitelts, that was Adolph Leitelt„s iron works which was across the river. And the Voigt senior told my father, my dad tells this story, he says Ed, I want you to know take care of this boiler problem so he had his crew over there Monday morning. But prior to the arrival of my father‟s people Leitelt‟s people were there. And there was quite a who does, who does this job? And they were all close friends, you know. Interviewer: Competitive. George: So my dad just withdrew but they, the mills and their people always had a friendly habit, anytime they wanted a little job done, they‟d come to my father‟s place and so he‟d say oh go ahead and use the machinery and forget it. Well, after this happened they came over and he said, “Fellows, I‟m sorry but why don‟t you go to Leitelts to have that.” Well, that brought out the Voigts in their hiding and the thing came out in the open. And Dad said, “Listen, Voigt senior told me explicitly to take care of this, and I did. But when I arrived, Adolf Leitelt‟s crew were there.” So and then they went on to explain Voigt senior well, he said, “Ed, I‟m awfully sorry but I told you this in full sincerity and my sons not knowing what I had done called Adolph Leitelt.” He said, “So it‟s the tempest of the teapot.” It was all straightened out they laughed about it, you know. But… Interviewer: Did any of the social relations in among the families, was the fact that you were all Germans and German in background a strong factor in the fact that you all got along so well. George: I think so. Interviewer: They tended to have feelings about it. �13 George: They thought quite a bit alike. Clara Voigt, and I have to be historically honest, could be well, a little bit dramatic and little bit volatile at times you know. And maybe you sense that. Interviewer: She was sort of, the people I‟ve known that talked to that remembered her at all, remember her [as] a certain grand dame. George: Yes, she was. Interviewer: A grand old lady. Helen: She wore the wide black-belted band with the big diamond, or she had a lot of big diamonds that she wore. She was a small lady, I mean a short lady and she always was all dressed up. George: She, I know every, my Grandfather Hake lived to be ninety-four and he was a very, very active, alert vital man right up to the day he died, he was only sick a week, died of pneumonia and that was it. But until his ninety-third year he‟d swim in Lake Michigan and I don‟t mean paddle around to his knees, he‟d really swim. And he would always a very tall, very erect man. And he would always walk down to St. Mary‟s Church although he also belonged to St. Andrews Cathedral, and he was, he retired after all these children. He retired in his sixties and lived in a grand manner until he died. But in this process of living, I would say for his time the good life he would have his children come up there practically every week. There were always one of the sons or daughters up there visiting. And he loved company. He would never associate with old people he says that makes me old; he wanted to be with young people. And so practically every Sunday night during the winter months there‟s be some family up there and invariably they‟d play cards. He loved to play Hearts or Poker. And when they were playing, why it was always the Voigts here and the Hakes here and they‟re all gunning for each other. They really had a rather… Interviewer: Now, we have some kind of information. And now I can‟t remember who gave it to us, that when they played cards they played cards in a special room upstairs, in the Voigt house. They didn‟t play downstairs, in the house, that they used an upstairs back room and that they used to listen to the radio and play cards. George: That must have been later in years. Interviewer: In later years, yes. And we kind of got the feeling that old Mr. Hake err, or old Mr. Voigt ran that family with rather a strong….. George: He did. From what I‟d always heard. I never knew the father, I did know Ralph and Carl, quite well, and of course my Aunt. Interviewer: Well even Ralph and Carl were enough older than you were. �14 George: Oh, yes. Interviewer: Be in the next generation. George: To get back, you see years ago when their offices were down on Pearl Street, the big mill. But they always had the old, the remnants of the old horse barn. And so they would park their car there and Ralph generally would walk. You could always tell when Ralph and Carl weren‟t getting along even though they lived in the same house, if they rode together to the parking place three blocks up they were friends. But if Ralph, who generally always drove walked back alone, they probably had some misunderstanding. Now that doesn‟t mean they were ever mad for very long. Interviewer: No, but natural family things. George: Yeah, that‟s right. Interviewer: Well, I always heard they only ever owned one car. George: I‟ve never known them to own two. Interviewer: Yes, even though the two were grown businessmen, they operated out of one car. George: Well, typical of that, you know Carl until he died wore button shoes. Interviewer: Oh, no. George: Oh, sure. He always wore button shoes. Interviewer: A real modern. Helen: He‟d always say if we met him, remember the day we were leaving on a trip day before we were in the bank and we met him and he said uh, “Now when you get home, come over to my museum.” Interviewer: He called the house a museum? George: Yes. Interviewer: I also heard that, what precipitated their decision to go out, you know to decide not to operate the mill anymore was when they ran into union trouble. Was that true? George: Well, that was, I think part of it, but they also ran into tremendous competition from General Mills, Pillsbury and people like that. Helen: Who would they have left it to? Interviewer: Well, that‟s the… �15 Helen: They had nobody. Interviewer: They had no children at that point, yes. Make more money selling out really. Helen: I should think so. George: Yes, well of course also the codes for manufacturing and production sanitation became more stringent in later years, than they had when they were riding high. And so they, I think and I think they had more money than they could spend and the glamour had worn off. Now on this money there, my father used to tell me that he would talk to Voigt senior, as a father, Ralph, Carl, and the rest of them and he said Carl senior was very penurious and he had Dad said, “Carl what are you going to do when your sons inherit all your money?” And he says, “They‟ll spend it?” He said, “Ed, I really don‟t care.” He said, “I had my fun saving it if they have their fun spending it, that‟s up to them.” Interviewer: What a neat philosophy. George: I remember he telling this to my father. Interviewer: Well, you know when you go through the house now, you realize that they were very saving people. George: Oh, yes. Interviewer: „Because they kept the things that are there in the house are just beautifully kept. You know the dresses, they‟ve got so many dresses upstairs, that are you see the pictures of old Mr. and Mrs. Voigt and the dress will be upstairs; really in beautiful condition. Was the ballroom, there was a ballroom upstairs wasn‟t there? George: Yes, on the top floor. Interviewer: Now then, I noticed that you had the lovely invitation. Did they used to have formal parties like that at the Voigt House? George: That was my…. Interviewer: Helen: No, I meant there were parties like that at the Voigt House? I think so because… George: My mother uses to speak that way. She used to go there quite often. Helen: I think so, because your aunt used to talk about those little gold chairs. George: Yes. The musical chair there that… �16 Helen: That, then she had that one musical chair. I didn‟t know much about that, but she used to tell your sisters about it. A chair they bought I believe in Switzerland. One you sat on it, it played a tune. In those days it was just something, a music box under the chair. But I never saw that. But she did make a lovely present to me of two pictures. One day she called me over for and I had tea with her and when I left… Interviewer: This was Aunt Clara? Helen: Aunt Clara. She said I want you to have something. And she gave me lovely, I think they were pastels of Grandmother and Grandfather Hake that had been made, and she told me (in) France. George: Could well have been. They… Helen: George: Helen: George: Beautifully framed, I still have them. She really adored the doctor. She always called him Doc. My Doctor. My Doctor, yes. Interviewer: All the reports we have was that they were very, very congenial couple. George: Yes, they were. Interviewer: And well, I guess she may have been dramatic but people liked her, didn‟t they? Helen: She, well, she was a very open… you knew where she stood. Interviewer: The daughter of the builder of the Voigt house said that he also built their house, which is on Madison? Was on Madison, or where was their house? Helen: George: Washington. Well, they…. Interviewer: Doctor and Mrs. Hake George: I think she had, I think they had a guarantee five, maybe even seven houses. Interviewer: Well, this one must have been within about a decade of when he built the Voigt house. This Mr. Jungbaecker built a house for her and she wanted her money‟s worth. She‟d come back to him and back to him with her plans and say now, are you ready to give me a good price? On her plans, you know. So I guess none of them were fools about money. George: No, they weren‟t. Well, they actually, the doctor died, and I know because I was there just a day or so before he died, he died and they lived on Washington Street. �17 Interviewer: On Washington Street? George: Helen: Just about a block west. Just around the corner. George: It‟s I think, it„s the second house from the corner, had a circular porch. Its glory days were when they lived there, as was true of that whole area. Helen: It‟s almost next to the old Percy (?) home wasn‟t it? George: Somewhere in through there. Helen: (?) On the Corner. I think next to (?) Interviewer: Where they, so they all lived close together. George: Very close. Of course, they all had it seems to me that I was told maybe she said that to us when they because some of them never married but oh, Voigt senior, provided in his will that if they lived in the within the house their expenses would be paid by the estate. Interviewer: Oh, they did. I‟ve got to turn this [tape] over. I don‟t want it to run out. [END OF SIDE ONE TAPE #52] Interviewer: Before he went out of business with Mr. Herpolsheimer, Mr. Voigt bought a lot of midi skirts and midi blouses; you know a whole lot of them. And she said she always wore those skirts and midi blouses in the morning, you know, when she was around the home, running the house. And then would dress up in the afternoon. And she said to the maids one day she said there were some of these midi blouses upstairs that had never been worn, she said I‟ll have to wear one every day till I die because they‟d never wear out. And I thought, oh dear I‟m sure they had enough money she could have just given them to the Salvation Army. But people didn‟t function quite that way, in the old days, I guess. Helen: Remember, I knew one cute kind of a cute little incident, about Aunt Clara. We were having dinner one evening, one at the Schnitzlebank, and [she] was there with her brothers. She had been quite sick and it about was her first time out. And so, when I saw her I, we both went over to speak to her. And I said to her, “Well how are you Aunt Clara?” She said, “Well of course, I guess I‟m alright.” She said, “I‟ll tell you Helen, I‟m going to have kraut tonight if it kills me.” Interviewer: Well. I‟m surprised at the people that at the memories of the people who had worked for them are very, very pleasant memories. They have very, they apparently were very friendly down-to-earth people in that and they are remembered by their help as being not, you couldn‟t just do anything I mean they demanded good work, but if you worked well you got along very, very well. And the gal I talked to last week who was a secretary who worked for �18 Frank and Carl and Ralph, said she was permitted to say anything you know She said when they, she booked orders, she apparently booked the orders that would come in from Australia and all those other places, you know. And she said, “Well I used to tell them you ought to get out on the road and talk to more people and sell more things here in the United States, we wouldn‟t have to ship it so far.” But he never took my advice, she said. And I thought it was interesting, not because of that but because apparently it was a very free office, you know that it wasn‟t run on a very formal basis. And she said that they were on a very first name basis. Not that she called them Mr. Hake, or Mr. Voigt, but they called her by her first name. George: I think, I don‟t think anything would have pleased Ralph more than if they had taken the old mills and preserved them. And of course, Ralph almost thought it would make a great, he told me once, he thought it‟d be great for like an atmosphere restaurant. And of course, that never came to be. And also there was a time, about ten years ago, when there was an effort to establish hotel there on that land. And Ralph was laughing he said, “George you know they think that‟s great news.” He said, “Fred Pantlind, Fred Z. Pantlind talked about that to me thirty years ago.” He said, “So there‟s nothing very new.” But if every, if people would have always prefaced their requests by saying, “Ralph we‟d like your house or we‟d like your mill and we want to call it the Voigt Grand Rapids Mill or the Voigt and Jones Mill.” If you identify the Voigts and Ralph, I think, loved that identification and he deserved it, really the family did. I think very honestly that if an effort had been made during Ralph‟s life time not when, not the last few years, when he was ill, but if they would‟ve said Ralph we‟d like to have your family residence we‟d like to have it recognized what can you do to see that it goes to the city for historic purposes? I think Ralph would‟ve done everything possible to see that realized. I am on the museum commission. Interviewer: Now, that is eventually who is going to control it? George: Well, actually it‟s on formally and I suppose legally it‟s under the control of the City of Grand, under the ownership of the City of Grand Rapids. But it‟s really under the jurisdiction of the museum. Then that in turn is subrogated, believe to the Historical Preservation Commission. Interviewer: Well, those gals were really... George: Helen: George: Helen: Oh, they deserve the glory. Just dedicated their lives, to that house. They‟ve done a great job. I think they really deserve a lot of credit. Interviewer: Oh, yes. And you know they‟ve that‟s a labor of love when they go down there. George: Well, I was on the finance committee. �19 Helen: I‟ve had luncheons there and they‟re fantastic. Interviewer: Yes, they do a beautiful job. Really do. George: I was on the finance committee with Frank Frankfurter, David and John Hunting and myself, to have that house transferred legally to the status it now enjoys. And the Grand Rapids Foundation of course contributed substantially. I think Dave Hunting senior did an awful lot to realize the ownership change. Interviewer: I know him just a little, he‟s a dear person. George: He is. He‟s tremendously alert. John, young John, you know is his son. He‟s building right over here. Interviewer: Helen: George: Helen: George: Is that where Marilyn, the new house is going to be right over here. That‟s where, yes. With the doctor though. It will be lovely. Looks just great. He‟s a very vital person for his age. Interviewer: I should say so. George: You know, I don‟t know if you‟d heard the incident or the story of the time that the Doctor and his wife were crossing Lake Michigan to attend the wedding of one of my uncles that is Theodore Hake. Interviewer: No, no I haven‟t heard it. George: Over in Milwaukee. Well, actually my grandfather already was in Milwaukee for two weddings. They were a week apart and the family and friends they were all invited of course. So actually my mother was going, but my brother came down with measles or something like that and so at the last minute she deferred going. But many of the Hakes went and also the Doctor and his wife Clara. And they were on a ship called the Naomi, which caught fire in midlake. And it was quite a disaster. It‟s been written up in many of the journals, in fact I understand that there is a free-lance writer in Grand Rapids now who has been working on the story of that. But as the story was told to me by my uncle, the fire was pretty much discovered, at least they learned about it early in the evening, when they because they were all as usual playing cards in the salon. And as they were dealing the cards… Helen: Excuse me, it wasn‟t early in the evening, it was late at night George: Late at night, yes. Well it all depends on how the Hakes would interpret “early in the evening” and “late at night,” course they never knew tomorrow, half the time. �20 Interviewer: They were not early, not early to bed people. Helen: They were all playing cards. George: They were all playing cards and somebody said, “I smell smoke.” And with that they pretty soon obviously the ship was a total disaster. And the Doctor Hake was I believe the only doctor on board and he administered to many of the people, some of whom died. And there are pictures of that ship and... Interviewer: Were they able to get to port without sinking. George: Yes, they took the lifeboats out. Oh, yes, Very much so. And they show, we have pictures somewhere where they towed the charred hull into Grand [Haven]….There‟s really nothing left of the upper structure. And my, I know the doctor‟s wife she was a little bit hysterical so the story goes and so she left her stateroom and was waiting to be rescued and she was in her corset and carrying an umbrella. Helen: You know when they wore corset covers? Interviewer: Oh, yes. With a corset cover and an umbrella. Was prepared for all emergencies wasn‟t she? Boy, that‟s a fantastic story; I‟ll bet that went the rounds. Wow. Oh, dear. George: Well that there were just pages of publicity on it. Interviewer: Was this like about the time of the World Wars or earlier than that? George: Oh no, no this was way back. Interviewer: Before the First World War? George: Interviewer: George: It‟d be it‟d be I would say about nineteen seven or eight seven or eight? Oh, yes about seventy years ago Interviewer: Oh yes, that‟s a long time. George: There‟s another friend there that I believe figured in the Voigt family background as a friend. That‟s the old Kusterer family. Of course there were a lot of these old German families you know, and they all clung together. Some of these families I have well a familiarity with because my grandfather Hake among other things was agent for the Hamburg-American Line. And at the time he was the oldest agent and there are in this group both in years and in years of service. And a suspicion is always been suggested that he did that because he liked to go to Europe and whenever he went he would divide his children into two groups. He‟d take first the one six and then the other six. �21 Interviewer: Oh, isn‟t that wonderful. George: And I presume he figured it was more economical that way anyhow. But in the process he was instrumental in arranging the passage of most of these old German families in Grand Rapids. And their home was really quite a congregating place for these Germans. You know originally you speak of the west side, right across from where we used to live which is all long gone but the expressway, right directly across the street, one of the Voigts lived. And the other one lived right around the corner on Court Street. Interviewer: Yes, that‟s what I understood from the very old lady that I talked to. She could remember going to, she could remember going to Union School with Carl Voigt. And then she remembered Ralph and she remembered when Ralph went away to school. He went to Andover, I think and then to Yale. And she could remember that he went away to school but she had gone to Union School with Carl. George: Well, years ago they had many wagons you know, dray wagons and they had beautiful horses. And just on what was then known as Shawmut Avenue, now Lake Michigan Drive, they had a pasture that was not very large but they‟d it was all fenced in. And the horses were finished many of the horse were stabled there. The others were stabled down across from our old building. And I used to go up there and watch these draft horses. They‟d run toward the fence and you‟d think they were going right through. But they were friendly, gentle souls. They had excellent care. Interviewer: Beautiful horses? George: Oh, yes. They were. Interviewer: They probably took just as good care of the horses as they did everything else. George: Yes, that‟s right Interviewer: I can never get over the woodwork in that house because it„s so beautifully kept. You know the house really (is) in remarkably great condition. I think that‟s the... Helen: George: Didn‟t they say about the carriage house too, George? Yes, Helen: Harnesses and everything. George: They had harnesses in there and they just… Helen: Everything was so lovely. George: Yes, they‟re just waiting for somebody for some horse to appear and the harness would be all ready for them. And they had I believe an old, I didn‟t see this but I was told by a �22 fellow at the time who worked for Cadillac and he used to collect old cars, and he said they had a beautiful electric I think, wasn‟t it electric? Helen: That‟s what they said. Interviewer: They had an electric car? They were handsome things. George: Yeah and that was I think sold to somebody up north. Interviewer: Were they great travelers? Were the Doctor and Mrs. Hake great travelers? George: Oh yes, they‟d gone to Europe, oh half a dozen times. Interviewer: It seemed to me if you look around the bedroom upstairs that there are obviously things that came from… Helen: She told me that she had seen, I think three different Popes. And that she always asked the Pope to bless his hands, because he was a doctor. Interviewer: Oh, isn‟t that lovely? Helen: She told me that. George: Well, he had, the doctor incidentally occupied a home which had been my grandfather‟s home, his father‟s home, on the site that is now occupied by Grand Rapids Press. And this home was originally built by Martin Sweet who in turn after he sold this house to my grandfather, bought the house or built the house rather which is now the Women‟s City Club. Interviewer: Oh, yes. Was this the Sweet that had Sweet‟s hotel? George: Yes. And Martin Sweet and my grandfather - that whole clique they were… Helen: They had the sweetest little house going up the hill there. Just darling. Interviewer: It makes me sick to think of how pretty this city must have been at one time. George: Yes, it really was. Interviewer: Really was beautiful. George: So many of the better things have been unfortunately torn down. Interviewer: Well, the, you know… Helen: The City Hall… Interviewer: Oh well, it‟s really brutal to think that such a beautiful building could have gone. Helen: George was on television one night trying to save it. �23 Interviewer: Hall? George: Oh yes, and who was it, Posey Benton who was it chained herself to the City Oh, Mary Stiles. Interviewer: Mary Stiles, yes. I heard about that when I first moved here. Helen: We were in Europe and at the Nordic Hotel was it, Oslo? No, it was Vienna, one of those. Well, anyway we walked in, we walked out of our room in the morning walked downstairs to the desk and a man held up the paper and he says, “Isn‟t this your home town?” And there she was, on the ball, you know. Interviewer: Do you remember the family well enough to know if they were interested in music or if they were interested in, if you read old Grand Rapids history there was always such an active interest in music in this community-the St. Cecilia Society, the Ladies Literary Club and well, the Women‟s City Club. Were any of the family, the Voigt family that you know of, interested in music or in any other…? George: I really don‟t know. I don‟t know. The only, I would venture though that the Voigts might have some interest in music through my Aunt Augusta Rasch-Hake, who was quite a pianist. And she studied in Vienna under Lesterchensky who was probably the foremost teacher of piano in the last two hundred years. And she used to play for example in concert with Percy Granger. Interviewer: Oh my, she was really good. She died only about two years ago. She was in her nineties. But she had a tremendous talent for music. And that‟s why she, her father sent her to Vienna for further study. But probably because of family association the Voigts and I‟m only surmising this because I would venture that they had themselves a pretty good interest in music. Interviewer: There was the room off the drawing room, now they call the Music Room but I don‟t know if it was called the Music Room then. But they have several you know they have several instruments around. Helen: How about the music? Did you find any old music? Interviewer: I think there is some there, but I‟ve never really gone through it. It‟s, I‟ve really been more interested in digging into the library to what books they had. Thought it was interesting to find out what books people kept around in those days. George: Have you ever talked to any of the other members of the Voigt family? The surviving… Interviewer: No. As a matter of fact, I was going to talk to Charles Dubee and then he‟s been in the hospital and I guess he‟s out in recovery right now but, he‟s he had a heart attack. �24 Helen: Oh, did he? Interviewer: Yes, and the word down at our church, is he‟s a member of our church, and word down around our church was that it was a pretty severe heart attack. So and I don‟t…. Helen: He was awfully heavy. Interviewer: Well, I‟ve only been doing this for about the last month or so and really he‟s had his heart attack and I really didn‟t think that it was even tactful, to go and talk. But he‟s one person that I know that I plan to talk to. The Pantlinds lived across the street from the Voigts. George: Yes, I believe that way back… Interviewer: And isn‟t that Mrs. Whinery? Isn‟t Kate Whinery a Pantlind? Helen: That would be Kay Whinery or Dosey. George: Then there‟s Hilda. Interviewer: I talked to Mrs. Hanchett over the phone but she said she didn‟t, she‟d been away from town so much that there was nothing she could add, to the story. George: You know Hilda Pantlind? Interviewer: No, I don‟t. George: Well, she‟s married to Charlie Armstrong. They live in Arizona I believe most of the time now, don‟t they? Helen: She comes in the summer but her sister‟s here. Cause I saw her at the beauty shop. Interviewer: Now who‟s her sister? Helen: George: Helen: Dosey Pantlind and isn‟t that Dosey? I don‟t know I only knew Hilda. Who were we talking about Hilda and her sister, Mrs. Whinery I‟m sorry. Interviewer: Kate Whinery Helen: George: Yes, I‟m thinking of Fred Pantlind‟s, no. I‟m thinking of Boyd Pantlind‟s wife I talked with Boyd today. Interviewer: Well. I just, I guess one day I was at Susan Lowe Guild and Kate Whinery belongs to Susan Lowe Guild and she mentioned that she lived across. I‟d come from the Voigt House, �25 that day, and she said that they lived across the street. But she‟d never been in the house very much. Were you ever in the house very much? George: Oh, yes. Helen: You were in. George: Not often but … Interviewer: Just the normal course of events. George: Yes, I tell you who might be able to give you some information too, is Bruce Gilmore. You see Bruce Gilmore occupied the Idema house which he I believe owned. That‟s where the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance is. Interviewer: Oh, that‟s right next door, isn‟t it? George: Yes, yes. Now what association Bruce would have had with say Ralph or Carl, I don‟t know except they were neighbors. Now Gene Gilmore works, Bruce is pretty much retired. He‟s, his brother was with him in the Bahamas here a few ago. And Bruce, I think will be back as soon as the weather warms up a bit. And he might be able to give you some information too. Interviewer: You‟re still active in business, aren‟t you? George: Oh, yes very much so. Interviewer: Yes, so you can‟t get away in the winter like everybody else. George: Helen: Oh, I can get away any time I want to. He‟s president. Interviewer: Well that doesn‟t mean you can take off as easily. It‟s usually if you‟re the president you have to stay and… George: No, I can say that because our three sons are in the business and also my nephew and they do a tremendous job. Interviewer: Oh, so you‟re a little freer then. George: Oh, yes. Interviewer: You don‟t (feel) you‟re chained. Well, I know that Mrs. Jackoboice, you‟ve done a lot of traveling. Helen: We do, but we‟re not very Florida fans or anything like that. We just returned from Mexico, we were down there for about three weeks. But… �26 Interviewer: That‟s nice. Helen: Yes. George: We were supposed to have gone last September. We went on a southern trip through Europe including Eastern Europe, Soviet Union, Hungary and so on. And, but my wife here had a little scare which fortunately… Interviewer: A heart thing? Helen: No, I just had a sudden flare and it was really something. I‟m a very, very well person and I just felt funny pain and I just thought well I‟ll go and have it checked you know. And, my word, they put me right in the hospital, had x-rays and what have you. And they thought I had something just terrible. And so I…. Interviewer: Oh, that‟s awful. Helen: Yes, it turned out to be nothing. Interviewer: Oh, that‟s good. George: Meanwhile … Interviewer: But meanwhile you cancelled your trip. Helen: By the time, yes, he said no way could you go on that trip, because it was something with the digestive system. Interviewer: Well, my sister-in-law has been into Russia twice and she said the only thing about Russia, is you don‟t want to be sick in Russia. Helen: That‟s where… Interviewer: Be healthy if you get around it. She loved it though. She said it‟s worth going just to through the Hermitage. Helen: My husband has been there several times. Interviewer: Have you? George: Helen: Oh, yes. Been all through Eastern Europe. I don‟t want to get sick in India either. Interviewer: I think there are a lot of places you prefer not to…. Helen: There‟s a lot of places I don‟t want to be there sick. �27 Interviewer: But on the other hand you can‟t stop going just on that chance. Helen: Course not. Interviewer: Right, right. George: There‟s I guess they were gradually are restoring or recollecting or collecting some of the furnishings and so on, of the Voigt place. „Course the attic; it was just loaded with… Helen: Yeah, they‟re gradually doing, well, I think what they‟ve tried to do is reconstruct what it probably looked, might have looked like early on. Not in its later days. George: I wouldn‟t think that there‟s too many basic changes, do you, from the old days? Helen: No, I remember when whenever I‟d go there though she‟d invite me over for tea, we always went directly to her room. Interviewer: You did? Helen: Clara never sat downstairs. Interviewer: Did you ever know Miss Emma Hake, err Voigt? Helen: Yes, I just knew her. And she‟d probably be there, but you knew, you could hear her moving around something. But if Aunt Clara had a guest she went to her room. And we sat there and it was a very pleasant room upstairs, you know which one she had? Interviewer: Yes. Helen: And she‟d always say, oh come up here and then she‟d always point out “my Doctor”. She had his picture all over the room and we had tea and we‟d visit. Interviewer: One of the fascinating things that you know about being down there is that the desk, the letters in the, stuffed in the cubbyhole of her desk are her letters. They‟re the letters and they‟re you know, it‟s as if she‟d left the room because you know the letters that are there she left a letter to Bishop Whittemore and a letter to a Catholic Bishop about something that she was corresponding with him about. You knew it‟s just as if she walked out of the room and were coming back. Except that the date had stopped you know, several years ago. So that‟s really it comes as close that houses come to living history, as almost any place you walk into. George: That‟s right. George: I don‟t think you‟d ever find a house... Interviewer: No, because everything you have the feeling the family just stepped out. And it‟s like the turn of the century. And there they are you know, just stop action. And they‟re very few �28 things they‟ve got Ralph‟s picture that LeClaire did in the downstairs hall. But most of the rest of the stuff you can go through the house and it looks very old. Helen: Wouldn‟t that make a fantastic movie? Interviewer: No, it‟s really a remarkable thing. The other thing I don‟t pick up about the Voigts is that they were very, very involved, now the time when your grandfather arrived here, well, back in the eighteen fifties if you look down the roster of the people who were mayors and officers in town they were always the prominent businessmen in town. And the politics didn‟t get separated from the business until, say after, oh well after you all, I think after that you got into a different kind of person being in politics. From, but early on it was liable to be prominent businessmen in town who were married and so forth. But the Voigt‟s name doesn‟t come up ever being involved in politics at all. George: No, not that I can recall. My grandfather was city treasurer for a period of years. And he always, he was credited generally with having established the bookkeeping system which until recent years was still the nucleus of the city systems. Interviewer: That‟s interesting. George: But that was Hake, you see, William Hake. And, but he was, he was quite active in city affairs and his brother John even more so. Interviewer: But you never pick up the name Voigt? George: No, not….. Interviewer: No, I‟ve seen the name Hake but I‟ve never seen the name Voigt. George: The Voigts were very keen business people. They tell a story and then there‟s (nothing) irregular about it, it‟s just typical I think of their time, and their generation. That they would buy wheat and of course, in those years there never was any governmental control on or anything on it. Well… Interviewer: They were real gamblers? George: Yes, well if you buy wheat on say futures, why if it went down, well, boys the mill bought that. If it went up, that was the Voigts. Interviewer: That was the Voigts. They still say you know that they say the commodities market is a great place for the real gamblers of the world. Rest of us… George: I think you know, you speak of the house I think, they guarded that house very well. I mean, I don‟t think the house was ever at any time abused by anybody in the family. It was always sentimentally regarded and well maintained. �29 Interviewer: Yes. Oh my goodness, yes. You just have to look behind doors you know and the polish the obvious gleam on all the woodwork had to come from loving rubbing you know. And diligent rubbing on some and apparently I think the woman who was their housekeeper is still alive. George: Yes, I think she is. Interviewer: And there‟s another person I have on my list to go talk to because it hasn‟t been loaded down with gunk. No or anything. It‟s just really cleaned and polished and such beautiful I don‟t think any of us these days think much about oak you know as being this great wood. But in that lower bedroom where Ralph was at the end of his life well that looks to me to be cherry wood. In there, its beautiful close grained woodwork and probably as pretty as wood as there is in the house. It‟s really nice. You know your room reminds me of the houses down around Charleston. Helen: Oh, really. Interviewer: This isn‟t Cyprus, is it? George: This is walnut, solid walnut. Interviewer: Helen: It‟s just beautiful wood. Thank you, thank you. Interviewer: Just lovely. Helen: We think so, we just love it. George is very “booky” and he always wanted a lovely library. So, we built it. Interviewer: Oh, it‟s really nice. But I love the color of the wood. George: This, this walnut is about that thick all the way through. I shudder, if you could even get, even get it now. Remember Warren Rindge? Interviewer: No, I don‟t. George: Well, Warren was one of the last traditional you see he was educated in Europe and Warren wouldn‟t touch anything modern. But things like this he loved. And he always said this was the finest library he had ever built. Interviewer: Oh well proportioned to the room is beautifully proportioned. Helen: We think so too. Interviewer: And the paneling is so lovely. �30 Helen: Now that‟ll be….. Interviewer: Oh, the little dentalling around the edges that goes up to the top. George: rooms. They were about, they were full time they were about eight months on these two Interviewer: I didn‟t know that there was a company that made all that finished mill work that went into the Voigt house. And that this Mrs., this Mrs. McLachlan that I talked to was the daughter of Jungbaecker (and) that it was her father was the head of this company. I still can‟t, the name has slipped my mind, they did finish mill work and they turned out those handsome you know the stair runs that are so pretty down there. I thought, I wondered about that and….. Helen: You know so much about architecture you must have… Interviewer: Not really, very much at all. But I was interested in that because she was telling me she worked as a bookkeeper in this place and she said that at the time they had built this house that the foreman of the room upstairs made eighteen dollars a week and they stepped down to nine dollars a week for the man that ran the elevator. This was for a sixty hour work week. And they worked ten and a half hours every day except Saturday. Ten hours and ten minutes every day and then on Saturday they could go home at five o‟clock, instead of six. George: Helen: That‟s what my father said their work schedule was two years ago. Really? Interviewer: Is that fantastic! George: Well, all the [way] up until the war years we always worked Saturdays. Interviewer: Oh sure, I remember that. George: My father always said that they‟d start at six and they‟d quit at six except Saturday they‟d quit at five. Interviewer: Isn‟t that fantastic? George: Helen: George: Helen: And the only day they had off was Sunday. They didn‟t complain, they didn‟t have strikes and things, did they? No. They do now. Interviewer: Gosh, it‟s hard to think about that. And I said, “Well didn‟t you mind the long hours?” And she said, “No, everybody worked. Even the bosses.” �31 Helen: That‟s the truth. Interviewer: You know if everyone‟s working it‟s all the same thing. I‟ve got to switch cartridges while we still want before we get interrupted, if you don‟t mind. [END OF TYPEWRITTEN TRANSCRIPT. But the interviewer and the Jackoboices continue talking as they view pictures and mementos. In the file, there is now a paper copy of all of the following transcript which matches the CD recordings.] George: This is a picture of the Voigt house here. Interviewer: This is the Detroit Free Press, oh, yes. George: Yes, Helen: Have you ever been there when they model some of the dresses? Have you seen Barbara in that one? I understand she is absolutely gorgeous. Interviewer: Yes, she is. You must have a very slim figure to fit into the dresses. Helen: Barbara said someone called me one day and they said that she should have her portrait done in that dress; someone that knew her very well. Interviewer: Yes, she really should. Helen: Someone told David you should go down with a camera and take her picture in the dress. Have you seen it? I would love to see it... Interviewer: Yes, and it is just wonderful. George: This is… Interviewer: Oh yes, now, I didn‟t know she was a business woman here. George: Oh, I think that.... Interviewer: Oh, it was, that‟s just because she was just in the family business. George: Not to my memory, was she ever active in the business. Interviewer: According to the gal in the office, it was the three brothers that came down to the office, the girls never came down. Neither your Aunt Clara nor Miss Emma ever came down. George: I never saw them there. I don‟t remember ever seeing them. Interviewer: Hmmm. �32 George: This is just a partial and I am looking for more, there has got to be another page of the Naomi… Interviewer: You don‟t have a date on this? Yes, yes you do, May twenty-second nineteen seven. That‟s right, you were correct about that. Helen: Is that the white book? George: Yes, Interviewer: Many thrilling accounts of the catastrophe are told. George: There might be some other pages in there too. Interviewer: They were going to attend the wedding of Louis F. Hake. George: Yes. Interviewer: And Miss Mary Buerger of Milwaukee. Yes. I would like to read that before I go. I don‟t want to read… George: I think I have a more complete. This is an item on my uncle, the Doctor. Interviewer: Did his elementary studies at the parochial school and public schools. His parents sent him to Notre Dame University where he spent three (days) years. After leaving this institution, decided his choice on the advice of his friends to take up the biological course. He entered the famous Ann Arbor University where he graduated in eighteen eighty-two. Received the degree of MD, youngest member among five hundred students. Obtained a situation in the pharmacy department of the wholesale retail drug concern of Thum Brothers. George: Here is another thing… Interviewer: A man used to live downstairs from us when first moved here, we had an apartment his family were the Hazeltine Perkins, you know Carl Montgelas. George: I know Carl… Interviewer: Yes, that‟s interesting. Cecelia Hake, isn‟t that a pretty one, this a beautiful, did you compile this book? George: That was my mother did that, most of it‟s in her handwriting. Interviewer: That‟s beautiful. George: So, it‟s… �33 Interviewer: Here is Doctor. Hake‟s death, practicing physician, specialist in children‟s diseases in Grand Rapids since eighteen eighty-two died Saturday morning at three fifty-seven Washington Street SE. Helen: That‟s what I thought. Interviewer: That‟s a good thing to know. He was only fifty-seven when he died. Helen: George: Oh, was he? Yes. Interviewer: Yes, had traveled and had the distinction of having met three popes, that‟s what you told me. Helen: That‟s what I had said. Interviewer: The last, the Thirteenth Pope Benedict, he was a graduate of both University of Michigan and Notre Dame and studied abroad. He was eleven years, a major in the state troops and for thirty years attendant physician at St. John‟s Orphan Asylum. This was work he did voluntarily and was married to Miss Clara Voigt on September twelfth, eighteen eighty-nine. Surviving are his widow, his father who is ninety-one years old and resides at two forty-six Ransom. Three sisters and Mrs. Helen Jackoboice. That would be your mother. George: Yes, my mother. Interviewer: And eight brothers, wow. Protestant, Jew and Catholic alike attended the funeral services for Doctor. Hake Tuesday last week at the Cathedral. Some praying for the repose of the soul of the departed, others testifying at least by their presence that the late doctor, by the best of his ability struggled and accomplished much for the betterment of his fellow citizens, and the greater glory of the common good. George: He predeceased his father. Interviewer: Yes, now this UBA Home and Hospital United Benevolent was the fore runner, that‟s Blodgett, isn‟t it? George: You know, I could be wrong, I associated that with Butterworth. Interviewer: I think, Butterworth is St. Mark‟s. It was St. Mark‟s before it was Butterworth. George: Could be. Interviewer: Yeah, this I think you‟ll find is the forerunner, and here is a picture of the Voigt Mill and a picture of it. George: I imagine there is a lot of those. �34 Interviewer: Mary Hake and Arthur Gore. And here, there is a dinner menu on here, too. Did you ever look at those meals we could never eat them now a days? Helen: Isn‟t that …. Interviewer: Fantastic. Home of Mary Hake Gore George: That was... Interviewer: George: Oh, your mother did a beautiful job, didn‟t she? That Gore was a sad story, there is enough things in that Hake tribe to …. Interviewer: Well, I think in a big family like that there were some, some tragedies as well as some… George: And yes there really were. Interviewer: You can‟t ever have a big family like that without some sadness as well as ….She has each of her children here and she has, isn‟t this neat. Helen: I just love to, you know how you go looking for something and looking in a drawer and you spend the whole afternoon reading? You know? Interviewer: Oh, yes. Helen: Just looking at pictures. Interviewer: Here it says one eighty-four Ransom, a breakfast immediately afterwards, oh a wedding breakfast. George: Here is one on the McGraws; it is years and years ago in the paper…. Interviewer: “Judy Jots it Down” must have been going on a long time. There must have been a lot of Judy's. Mr. Francis B McGraw of the firm of Duran & McGraw and Amelia L. daughter of ex-alderman William Hake in St. Andrews Church Thursday, full dress affair was conducted on a magnificent scale. Finest velvet covers being laid from the carriages into the church. The bride was superbly dressed in white satin with wreath and veil. The groom wore the conventional full dress suit of black with a diamond crescent on a white neck scarf, my goodness, how times have changed. Because this story appeared in the eighteen seventy-six in the old Grand Rapids Daily Eagle, One of solid gold nuggets we ran across when looking over a scrapbook that was loaned to us by Lewis F. Hake. George: This was another menu for another daughter. Interviewer: The wedding of Mary Hake, and this was the one you said was such a sad story… about Arthur Gore. Mock Turtle Soup, California Salmon, Red sealed Bordeaux, Sweetbread �35 patties, Snipe on toast. First time I‟ve really known what snipe really was, they use to kid us about snipe, Saddle of antelope larded with Sauce Picante, Roast Turkey, Spring chicken, French peas, tipped asparagus, Spareribs, Roman punch, Chicken Salad, Potato Salad, Shrimp salad. Helen: Watched their calories. Interviewer: Raspberry ice cream, Strawberry, Charlotte Russe, then Champagne, Pyramids of Macaroons kisses, French torte, Fresh fruit and French coffee. That‟s a magnificent meal, isn‟t it? George: I think that is the only picture existing. I have blown this up from a very small tintype. This is the house where Doctor Hake practiced medicine in, after my grandfather who still owned the property and moved into the big house. This is Hake right here in the picture. This one is the same one you see up there. Interviewer: Oh, yes, now that is your grandfather? George: Yes. Interviewer: Isn‟t that nice. George: These were painted by Gregori, who painted all the murals at Notre Dame University. Interviewer: Of course, he did a fine job, now where is this house? George: This is the house, long torn down; it stood on the present site of the Grand Rapids Press. Interviewer: Oh, I see. George: In the back there was an orchard, there was also a well. And it always has been stated, that the well there which predated the use of the water that was there by the Arctic Spring Water Co, if you remember that name. And originally by Kusterer of the brewery who had the old Furniture City Brewery. And Kusterer and my grandfather were very close personal friends. Kusterer went down on the Alpena, if you remember that story. Well, after my grandfather‟s family grew, he moved on the hill and kept this property until later it was sold after his death. But Doctor Hake practiced medicine out back and the house was entirely different. The walls in that, Interviewer: It is made from limestone out of the river. George: That‟s right Charles Belknap lead a drive to keep the thing, he failed. Interviewer: What a shame, what a treasure that would have been. George: Yes. �36 Interviewer: Your grandfather lived here? George: That was his first house, actually when he first came to the city, he didn‟t live there because he wasn‟t married he was just a kid he came from Germany. He had his first job with John Clancy who had the first wholesale grocery in Grand Rapids and my grandfather learned the Indian dialect and worked there. He got married at St. Michael‟s church in Chicago. Interviewer: When your grandfather first came, they were still making payments to the Indian every fall. George: Yes, he came about eighteen forty-seven – eighteen fifty or so. Interviewer: They were still making payments to the Indians every October and November until eighteen fifty-eight or so. Helen: This is built over the old spring. George: That‟s the old brewery. Interviewer: “The past crumbles easily”…Fox Deluxe Brewery on Michigan Street, now was this torn down for the expressway? They lost the depots and everything. Now this is Christopher Kusterer a German brewer who went into partnership with John Pannell, Grand Rapids. They started a large brewery on Michigan Street. A large pure cool gushing spring. George: That‟s the spring. My grandfather was in many different, lumbering, a lumber mill. Interviewer: These old people turned their hands to a lot of things in the course of getting established, didn‟t they? George: Here is an item when Doctor Hake came back from Europe one time. Interviewer: Nineteen fourteen, oh, they were in the war zone in Europe. In view of the present events in Europe the great Peace Palace at The Hague is a huge joke. On his arrival from a trip to Europe, accompanied by Mrs. Hake we went direct to Hamburg, Germany from Amsterdam after a visit to The Hague and only a day or two after we visited the famous monument to the peace of the world. Leading powers of the countries were clutching at each other throats. They were there when war was declared, weren‟t they, in August nineteen fourteen? You see that would be at the time. Were clutching each others‟ throats, and practically all of Europe were seething in the heat of the impending conflict. We were impressed with the beautiful urns of wonderful design, emblematic of peace, the contributions of the Czar of Russia and the German Kaiser. The beautiful tribute of Japan and we‟re told a prominent place had been reserved for a tribute from the United States. Doctor Hake could not refrain from emphasizing the inconsistency of the situation and emphatically remarked that the present the wonderful Peace Palace, erected by Carnegie is a travesty on the sentiment of peace among nations. I believe the war now in progress will set civilization back a half a century. Boy, how right he was. �37 George: Yes. There is a little story about when he returned I believe from this trip, there was a little dinner party and many of the people of the city of some prominence were in attendance and I believe the Voigts were there too and even though my Uncle obviously was German as were the Voigts. The thing got a little controversial and they had quite a splash in the paper about the sentiments expressed by Doctor Hake that apparently weren‟t considered .the thing to say with war so imminent. And he was criticized for it, rather strongly, but he didn‟t retract, I don‟t think. .. Interviewer: Was there any feeling in your family, any reaction against German people expressed? Or you had been here so long by that time… George: Oh, no we had no relatives over there. Interviewer: One of the things that comes through as you look over the history of Grand Rapids is that the German people have disappeared into the population. Whereas the Dutch have retained this Dutchness. Helen: Yes, that‟s right. Interviewer: But the German people have just joined the Yankees. George: I think it is rather fitting and I think a tribute to these people. Both my grandfathers are memorialized in the Grand Rapids Museum. Interviewer: In the public museum downtown? George: Yes. In the Ethnic groups. Interviewer: That‟s something to be proud of. George: Yes, incidentally on this one picture here, this was not at the Voigt house anymore. Interviewer: No, that is not there at all. George: That was originally an egg house. Interviewer: That room doesn‟t look anything like that now, that room looks quite different, this looks more like a drawing room but this one has been turned into a music room. Maybe not the way it looked. A lot of the furniture went to various relatives. George: Yes, that„s my understanding, when you come in there is that model mannequin with the bridal dress on. Well that‟s Doctor Hake‟s wife. Interviewer: George: Is that her wedding dress, that‟s the one that Barbara modeled, isn‟t it? Oh, is it? I don‟t know. �38 Interviewer: I think that‟s the one, because it is a beautiful wedding dress. George: Not to distract you from that, but here are some cablegrams, telegrams and so on at the time of that Naomi disaster. Interviewer: Oh, yes. Isn‟t that neat, all those barred by the sad misfortune on the lake stretch hands across and join in hardy congratulations. Everybody safe and doing well; may this gloom not cloud your joy; may the sunshine of the day be the sunshine of your life. Who is M. Richard? Louis Hake & bride. George: He was, I don‟t know, some relative, but this Albert Hake is… This all ties in because of the … Interviewer: Naomi disaster. I‟d like to really take the time and really read through this, if you wouldn‟t mind me coming back. I would love to come back and sit and read sometime. George: Oh, sure, glad to have you. Interviewer: There is no use reading into the tape recorder. George: No, I know. Interviewer: And I think your mother did a beautiful job in putting this all together. George: I have a lot of this stuff that is just… Interviewer: Now, here you are, Mr. and Mrs. William Hake requesting the honor of your presence of their daughter Helen Matilda to Edward J. Jackoboice, June twelfth, one thousand nine-hundred and six, nine o‟clock. St. Mary‟s Church. Now where is St. Mary‟s Church? George: That‟s on the West side where Father Bingham is pastor now. That is, that is one of the really sleeper churches of the dioceses. You see, that is the second oldest parish in the dioceses of Grand Rapids. Interviewer: That is before St. Andrews? George: No, St. Andrews is first. Interviewer: And St. Mary‟s was second? George: Now, St Mary‟s Church was not the second Gothic church, it was the first church in the Gothic style. St. Mary‟s is an older parish, but St James has an older existing structure, But that St Mary‟s church was in a Gothic style. It is a gorgeous church inside. Interviewer: I‟ll make a point to go over to St. Mary‟s. I‟ll make a point to go over and look. Now, this is your grandfather? William Hake. �39 George: Yes. Interviewer: Isn‟t that something? George: Now that‟s McGraw. Interviewer: Did your grandmother outlive your grandfather? George: No, she died when she was about seventy-eight. Yes. Interviewer: Boy, he was how old when he died? George: ninety-three. Interviewer: Wow, ninety-three. That‟s fantastic George: There were a lot of write-ups about him. He was a very, very colorful man and a dominate personality. These are some of the things that happened at the Hake house. There‟s picture over there of the Naomi over there. Interviewer: Burns, Wednesday morning, Grand Rapids Michigan. One of the heroes of the Naomi disaster - William Hanrahan. Thrilling tales. Grand Rapids people aboard were saved, but lose their clothes and their valuables. Bet they lost some wedding presents too, didn‟t they? George: Yes. Interviewer: Oh, my, that was a big thing, worse than the cyclone. They did lose some lives, though? George: Oh, yes. Obviously mostly crewmen there, that burned to death Interviewer: No, isn‟t that something. Now here it is, soloist…. George: Now is that my sisters? Interviewer: Ruth Jackoboice, is that your sister? George: Yes, I use to have twin sisters Helen and Ruth, and they played the French Harps. Interviewer: I talked to one of your sisters; here it is Miss Gast - that is you! George: Interviewer: George: Yes. I talked with her, and she‟s very much involved in the money raising thing... She… �40 Interviewer: … for the diocese, isn‟t she? She said she would just as soon I talk to you. She would get back to me later. She apparently has put a lot of time and a lot of work…. George: Yes, she has… Interviewer: She was very kind. George: She is in Florida now; she will be back sometime this week. Interviewer: Were the regarded in town as an eccentric family in town? George: No, let‟s see. I guess a qualified yes. Interviewer: What made people in town feel like that about them? Clannishness mainly? George: Obviously, they were very family oriented. They had strong convictions on thrift and economy which really is no fault. Interviewer: That‟s really a virtue, but they were pretty well known for …. George: I know they used to have a decorator years ago and he was highly regarded an as a friend, very fine and very expensive decorator, but say he painted the outside, they had these big beams. Well Mrs. Voigt, she just get a fish pole after he‟d left and would put white gauze on the end a fish pole and she‟d reach up there to make sure he painted it all. If it was wet, it was all right, otherwise he‟d missed and she‟d want to know about it. Interviewer: I heard another tale like that. This old gal whose father built the Voigt house, did a lot of work for her father before that. She used to take the bills around and present the bills, and she‟d go to the mill office with the bills and she said he‟d always say, “Oh, John. How did John get at this figure? This is too high, this is too high.” And her father said, “Now he‟ll say this to you. He‟ll say John‟s just robbing me blind.” And he said, “Well you just stay there and you don‟t say anything. And then he‟ll pay you.” And she said it was just like that. You‟d go in and he‟d say “Oh John is jus robbing me. This should be, no this price is too high.” Then she waited a while and wouldn‟t say anything and then he‟d pay her. And she said every time she went to collect there was always this little act they went thru. George: You know, there was one controversy, not so many years ago I would say prior to Ralph‟s death, when the mills were sold to the City of Grand Rapids and the city I think was wise in acquiring the land, because we are now one of the few cities in the country, who own both sides of the river in the downtown area with rare exceptions. I think that is a great thing they are striving to do but the Voigts were highly criticized for that because according to the reports they got anything from five hundred and eight thousand to five hundred and say fifty thousand dollars for it. But what most people entirely forget is that the Voigts owned the riparian rights and by riparian natural waterways laws and so on, the city never could have acquired that unless the Voigts had surrendered those rights, which meant later they could make a parking lot and �41 eventually a planned plaza on the west side. See these canals fed the water wheels for the Voigt mills. And also, something and I am almost positive I am correct because I had it confirmed by one of the leaders of at least one of the hospitals. George Welsh, and I always regarded George Welsh, I disagree violently on many things. Did you know him at all? Interviewer: I never knew him, but I wish I had, he was quite a colorful character? George: Yes, he was and naming the auditorium was a well deserved honor for him. But when they say they paid five hundred and some-odd thousand dollars for these old mills. And the city did. But they not only got the mills and the land on which they stood, they also got the land to make a parking lot out of that land. But most importantly the Voigts have never been given credit for it to my knowledge; they gave a hundred eighty thousand dollars to St. Mary‟s Hospital and a hundred eighty thousand to Butterworth Hospital. And there is three hundred sixty thousand dollars and everybody said they were getting top dollar but no one comes forth and says they also gave it back. George: I had a friend and maybe this is analogous, but his family, and they lived in Grand Rapids, are just notorious and they were just plain stingy. And yet I seen this fellow would turn right around and argue with the newspaper boy whether it should be two cents or three cents. And on one occasion he turned right around and he gave me season tickets to a most coveted football season. He said, Ah, here you take them.” I said I would pay he said, “No, I don‟t want anything.” And I think the Voigts in some ways were like that. Interviewer: They wanted the value for their money. George: Yes. Interviewer: Of course one of the things we forget, and I think it is true here, is the genius of Grand Rapids has been the businessmen. Extremely capable businessmen. And I was sort of interested in meeting you because one thing about my study of Grand Rapids, it is a natural course of events in America now. But one of the things I think made Grand Rapids strong was home-owned business. You know, that the people that own the businesses live here. George: Yes, Interviewer: And there were so many businesses, were home owned businesses right here that were strong and diversified. And of course, that‟s passing on. George: You take with us now, we‟re. There are no outside owners it is all family. Interviewer: But you are becoming more and more rare here in town. George: Yes, that‟s right. But as I say we have been in business continuously as a family in the machinery business in Grand Rapid without interruption for a hundred and eighteen years. �42 Interviewer: That‟s a record. George: Very frankly, we enjoy it tremendously; we have an awful lot of fun. We sell throughout the United States and about twenty-five foreign countries. You‟ve got a really good booming… Interviewer: George: But we work at it, and we enjoy working at it. Interviewer: And you have three sons in the business? George: Three sons in the business, all three sons are in the business. Interviewer: I thought maybe when Mrs. Jackoboice said that one of them was writing about Wordsworth; maybe you had a college professor in the family. George: I think it started out that way, I think he likes that as an avocation but I think he likes business better. He might not agree with me, but he is down there all the time. Take my wife. Her people have always been in business, both of my grand fathers were in business and my father was. Business talk has always been dinner table conversation as a lot of these old family names in town. You know the Herpolsheimers, Wurzburgs and the Voigts. You weren‟t overly impressed because their names came up so often. Interviewer: And they were your neighbors and you saw them every day. George: Just like, here we were flying to Europe a few years ago and actually the man was Don Maxwell who was the editorial chairman of the Chicago Tribune and we were flying together he and his wife and Helen and myself we were visiting, half-way across the ocean and he rather facetiously at the end said well George you know you have been name dropping a little bit. I said Mr. Maxwell I disagree, it just so happens that because these people made some mark on the world and they are well known figures, doesn‟t mean your name dropping or I am. Actually, I know these people, I know them very well and they are personal friends of mine. I don‟t believe I am doing any more than giving them their modest merit. INDEX B G Bedford, Mr. · 4 D Dubee, Charles · 24 Gast Family · 1, 4, 40 Gilmore Family · 25 Gore, Arthur · 34, 35 �43 H P Hake Family · 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 9, 13, 16, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23, 27, 28, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39 Hanchett, Mrs. · 24 Herpolsheimer Family · 9, 11, 43 Hunting Family · 19 Pantlind Family · 18, 24, 25 J Jackoboice Family · 1, 2, 9, 10, 33, 39, 40, 42 Jungbaecker, John · 3, 16, 30 K Kusterer Family · 20, 36 L R Rasch Family · 3, 9, 23 Rindge, Warren · 30 S Schulz, Mildred · 3 St. Cecilia Music Society · 23 St. Mark‟s Episcopal Church · 8 St. Mary‟s Church · 13, 39, 41 Stiles, Mary · 23 Sweet, Martin · 22 U Ladies Literary Club · 23 Leitelt Family · 12 University of Michigan · 6, 33 M V McGraw Family · 35, 39 McLachlan, Mrs. · 3, 30 Monarch Road Machinery Company · 9 Voigt Family · 2, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 18, 21, 23, 24, 28, 29, 37, 41, 42, 43 Voigt, Clara · 1, 4, 13, 33 O W Orth, Mary · 3 Whinery, Mrs. · 24, 25 Women‟s City Club · 22, 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97bc849e31349448be62db2c84842671.mp3 6414af789bf64b461989218c2cf11560 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_52Jackaboice Title A name given to the resource Jackoboice, George and Helen Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jackoboice, George Jackoboice, Helen Description An account of the resource Helen Gast was born August 7, 1910 in Grand Rapids. She married George Jackoboice in 1937. They had three sons. Mrs. Jackoboice died on December 31, 2008. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f0646e755247820180ac04841e324ac.pdf 60e3a5bb08e6b86ec548b2eea3dfe69d PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Siegel Judd (Dorothy Leonard) Interviewed on September 17, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #13 (1:05:11) Biographical Information Dorothy S. Leonard was born 14 September 1898 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, the daughter of Harry Carr Leonard and Willie Thomas Stansbury. She died 14 February 1989 at Porter Hills Presbyterian Village in Grand Rapids. Dorothy married Siegel Judd 29 June 1922 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Siegel was born Siegel Wright on 19 June 1895 in Kent County. He was the son of Addison Wright, the brother of Mrs. Lillian (Edward C.) Judd, who adopted and raised Siegel. Siegel died 4 September 1982. Mrs. Judd’s father was Harry Carr Leonard, born 25 December 1874 in Grand Rapids, the son of Charles H. and Emma (Carr) Leonard. Harry died 14 February 1956 at the age of 81. The mother of Mrs. Judd was Willie Thomas Stansbury, born in Delaware, Ohio, 18 August 1875 and she died in Grand Rapids on 21 March 1938. Their marriage took place in Lafayette, Indiana on 23 June 1897. ____________ Interview conducted with Mrs. Siegel W. Judd on September 17, 1971. Mrs. Judd: You asked me about the flavor of life in Grand Rapids when I was young, I think one of the predominant characteristics was the closeness of family life. My family really was not patriarchy, but a grand patriarchy, you might say, with my grandfather Leonard heading it up; and so, I’m going to want to tell you something about my grandfather so you’ll understand that family life. In the first place, he was always looking to the future. I never remember him talking about the past except when sometimes I asked him questions about it. He was always envisioning the needs of the community and the needs of business and industry, the new technologies, we’d call it today. I think they didn’t use that work; management systems, we’d call it today. But he was into these things and I think he’d be quite surprised to know that you young people wanted to know about the past. For example, really he was called in the refrigerator business the ―Granddaddy of the Refrigerator Business,‖ because he really was the inventor of the refrigerator, if you can say that anything as complicated was a single invention. But prior to that time, and this was along in the eighteen eighties there was no such thing as refrigeration. People had boxes, and they put ice in them; but, they didn’t have drainage, they weren’t cleanable, and only the people in the north who could get ice had refrigeration. In the south they couldn’t get ice, so they had to have other methods. I can remember my grandfather trying to sell the people in the south, on the idea of an icebox, as we called it in those days; and later on trying to sell the idea in South America and Europe. So it was pretty much in the northern part of the states that the idea of refrigeration got �2 going. I have his patents, oh, on hinges and locks and linings and drain pipes, and trays and all the things that go into a refrigerator. It was a seasonal business, too, because people only felt they needed it in the summertime. They always manufactured in the winter and piled them up in warehouses, ready to sell in the summertime. And of course, here in Grand Rapids the ice pretty much came from Reed’s Lake. I never think of Reed’s Lake as freezing so deep today, but where the East Grand Rapids Junior High School is, there was a great big wooden warehouse, storage house. The big drays, with great big horses, would go out on the ice and cut the ice, and put it in this storage house, and cover it with sawdust. That’s where our ice came for the iceboxes, in those early days. But, my grandfather wasn’t satisfied with an icebox. We have a scrapbook of his clippings that he cut out in the eighteen nineties with ideas about how to have what he called an ―iceless refrigerator,‖ and when I was a little girl, we were always experimenting on how to have a cold refrigerator without ice. I can remember one icebox where my father cut a big hole in the side of it down at the bottom and set an electric fan, with a wet flannel over it, in that hole to see if that wouldn’t be one way to get refrigeration. Another thing, one of his early interests, was the need for what he called pure water in Grand Rapids. Our water was so bad that people didn’t drink it; and if they did, they often died of typhoid fever. There was a big death rate from typhoid fever in Grand Rapids. Of course, the water we had was river water. My grandfather’s scrapbook has pictures in it of a barrel, I can remember, with sand in the bottom and gravel on the top experimenting filtering water through it to see if it wouldn’t purify the water. That’s back in the eighteen nineties. In nineteen four there was a World’s fair in St. Louis, and my grandfather went down there because St. Louis had a filtration plant. When he came back, he built an eight-foot model of it and persuaded the city government to set it up in the city hall so people could see what filtration could mean to Grand Rapids. Then, in nineteen seven, there was a campaign. I’ve forgotten whether it was to decide to build a plant or, I think it must have included the bond issue. I can show you, in a few minutes, my grandfather’s accounts of money he raised for that campaign for pure water. It was defeated: and I think it was defeated again around nineteen eleven. If you want to know more about pure water, John Martin also worked on this; and Mrs. Richard Meade can tell a lot about it. And of course, it wasn’t until nineteen seventeen that they finally built the plant and we began to have pure water. That seems very recent to me, maybe it doesn’t to you! But this made a tremendous reduction in the death rate of typhoid fever the very next year. That was another one of his forward-looking interests. Another example: That was my grandfather’s father who came to Grand Rapids originally, and I’d like to go back to that later, but I’d like to go on with some of these forward looking things of my grandfather’s. He was born on Monroe Street in a little frame house bordering now on what’s the McKay Tower, where the Houseman Clothing Store is now. It was a general store his father had on the first floor, and they lived on the second floor. After my grandfather grew up and began to be active in the business, they decided they should have a new building there. So, I don’t know the exact date, but sometime in the eighties I think it was, he built the brick building that stands there now, that. Houseman Clothing Store is in. Well, to do that, he had to rent a store across the street for his business. He was never a man to spend any more dollars than he had to, so he was in a great hurry to get the building done. At that time, the Edison Incandescent Lamp came out. He was the first one to use this in Grand Rapids. So, they went on with their construction at night, with the new Edison light. �3 Another new thing that he did, he was great on construction. He never had a college education; he wasn’t an engineer, but he was a great inventor. So, when in nineteen seven, they built the big plant on Clyde Park, which became the Kelvinator Plant after we sold it to Kelvinator. He built it of hollow cement blocks. Nobody had ever heard of building with hollow cement blocks. He mixed the cement mixture himself. And everybody said: ―Oh, Leonard’s building’s going to fall down for sure!‖ It was a great big building and they called it ―Leonard’s Elephant.‖ But, it’s still there and it’s been greatly enlarged by future owners of the plant. Then he had a great interest in educating youngsters and especially in developing skills. Now here today we’ve got these new skill centers about to open and we’re very excited about them; but along in nineteen four or five, my grandfather introduced manual training into the public schools; woodworking for boys, and sewing and cooking for girls. This was what you might call the beginning of occupational training for children. I have a clipping of a letter he wrote to the ―Public Pulse,‖ oh, maybe it was back in the teens, I’ve forgotten just when, recommending oneway streets. We had no one-way streets. In fact when I was on the city planning commission in the forties, we were beginning to recommend one-way streets, and it just raised Cain in the town. People would not have one-way streets! But, my grandfather said that this had to come, and he suggested it for what was then Commerce Street, which at that time went clear through to Monroe and created a lot of traffic problems with Commerce and Division so close coming into Monroe Street. He had the second automobile in Grand Rapids; it was a Knox, and it had three wheels. This is when they lived on Fulton Street in the John Ball House, which had great big stables down behind the house, where they had a beautiful carriage and a pair of white horses. Of course, they didn’t dare put the automobile there because they figured the automobile and the horses wouldn’t get along together very well. The house went downhill at the rear so that you could get into the basement from the ground, so the Knox was put in the basement. I can remember grandpa used to have an awful time getting up Fulton Street hill with the car. All the boys would line up and shout: ―Get a horse, mister‖. Then, of course, in the refrigerator business along came electrical refrigeration finally. It really developed during the war, the first war. And so we started selling the boxes to Frigidaire that made the motors. These were the first electric refrigerators. But my grandfather felt that the future of his business depended on his developing an electrical motor, and building the whole business. So, he bought land south of the Clyde Park plant to build a new plant to build motors. This was in nineteen twenty-four, about, and he was eighty years old. He was ready to build a new plant and experiment with a new product at that age. And of course, the poor old fellow; all his family said no. Nobody else in the family could do this, and grandpa was too old and really it just broke his heart. He just went downhill after that. Interviewer: Who said no? Mrs. Judd: The family, the rest of the family. Of course you must understand that industries in those days were family industries, they were not publicly owned. The whole family, including my father and my two sister’s families were all dependent on the refrigerator, and they all worked there and my cousins worked there, and my uncles, and my mother’s father. It was really a family affair. So, if it had gone into bankruptcy over this effort to build a new plant without the leadership of my grandfather, the whole family would have gone down the drain. So they had to say they couldn’t do it. This was the reason that they finally sold the plant to the Kelvinator �4 people, who were making electric refrigerator motors at that time, and who wanted to own a box factory. Frigidaire was part of General Motors and they built their own box factory. I would suggest you tape a conversation with my husband on this. The new Grand Rapids history is very inadequate and somewhat inaccurate on this thing of the refrigerator business here. My husband was the attorney in the sale, and he knows all about it. He was also attorney for many of the big furniture plants here, and he’d be a good one to talk to on the relationship of the whole furniture industry to life in Grand Rapids. It was very vital, the part that it had in family life and general living. Now let’s see. Shall we go back and talk about where the family came from? You’ve suggested this. My grandfather’s name was Charles H. Leonard and his father’s name was Heman. Heman came, his family originally - from New England and had lived a few years in Monroe County, New York state, near Rochester. Then old - oh dear! I forget Heman’s father’s name – anyway he had several sons and he said to them all, you must go west young man. And he offered each of them two hundred acres of land in Michigan if they would go and settle in Michigan. Some of them stopped around Detroit; and around Saginaw you’ll find Leonard families today. I don’t know them but I know that they’re there. Heman did what many people did who were moving west, when they came along the Erie Canal and Lake Erie and got to Detroit. Then they took, I suppose what was called, the old Territorial Road, which was practically I-ninety-four now, across southern part of the state, so that Jackson, Battle Creek, and Kalamazoo are all older communities than Grand Rapids: and then many of them came from the southern part of the state and moved up to Grand Rapids. And that was true of Heman Leonard. He lived a few years in Three Rivers and then came up here. The third wife he married, her family, her name was Mariah Winslow and her father was a doctor, and they lived near Kalamazoo. They came up here in eighteen thirty-five orseven. He was the first doctor, incidentally to perform any kind of service in the Grand Rapids area, and he came up on horseback from Kalamazoo to do it. Interviewer: And that was who? Winslow? Mrs. Judd: Dr. Winslow. The Baxter history tells about this. Evidently he liked Grand Rapids, so two years later he and his daughter Mariah came up here. You know, a lot of these hard working pioneers wore out several wives. Mariah was not the mother of my grandfather, but she was the stepmother who really brought up the two Leonard boys; Frank and Charles and Fred the three of them. So, she was a great influence in the family. She’s buried out in the Fulton Cemetery along with all the rest of the Leonards. In eighteen forty-two, she was the only woman on a committee of seven men who founded the First Baptist Church. It was really her influence that kept the Leonard family in what is now the Fountain Street Church all down through the years. I wish I knew more about her, she sounds like a wonderful person. Interviewer: Why did Heman Leonard remove from his farm to Grand Rapids? Mrs. Judd: Siegel and I were talking about that this morning. Why did people come to Grand Rapids, because it was offbeat from the normal transportation routes even in the pioneer days, just as it was in the development of railroads? It had railroads much later than Kalamazoo did. And still today in the airlines, we’re really offbeat. We don’t have the service that the lines from Detroit to Chicago get. But, I think Siegel would really be able to give you a better picture of this economically. The kind of people who came here from New England were not the fly-by-nights �5 that were just all the time going west to find something new. They were quite substantial businessmen in New England, and in New York state, and they became so when they came here. They came here with the idea of settling down, stabilizing; this had made this a stable community. And it was a center of trade for the lumber camps, and even for the copper country. It was the farthest north, settled community, and a lot of those really settled in Grand Rapids. Of course my grandfather’s (Oh, I’m skipping around now) as I told you, his father started a general store on Monroe Street, so he went on with this, my grandfather did when he grew up, and started in the wholesale business. There is a lot of wholesale business here, supplying stores all the way up and down Western Michigan. Grandpa told me that his first wholesale business was: he went down to Ohio, and he got a freight car full of kerosene lamps, and those clay pickle jars and… Interviewer: Crocks? Mrs. Judd: …took them up to the---crocks-, yes—and took them up to the lumber camps and that was the beginning of H. Leonard and Sons. Have you ever heard of that store? That store didn’t go out of business till in the nineteen fifties. It was one hundred eight years old when they finally---the family--- sold it to the men who so long had been running the store. Interviewer: What’s the name of the store now? Mrs. Judd: Well, it doesn’t exist anymore. The building is there, it’s on the corner of Fulton and Commerce, and Dykstra, [is] there a warehouse, I think. Interviewer: Oh yes, it’s a furniture… (Mrs. J. – I don’t know what ….) Mrs. Judd:. I don’t know what their business is or what’s in it, but on the front door you’ll still see the bronze plaque that says H. Leonard and Sons. H. Leonard was my great-grandfather, and his sons, my grandfather Charles and his brother Frank. Frank Leonard was the father of Mrs. Noyes Avery, Senior. Mrs. Judd: Let’s see, well just a word about the family-nature of the industry. As I said, all of us were in it, and were proud of it, used to take all our guests over to see it. It was very interesting because in those days a factory made every part of what they needed for a product. So that there was not only the woodworking in the days when there were wood refrigerators, but there was metal working. When they began to make porcelain linings they had the big furnaces that baked the porcelain. When they made trays that---you know, wire trays—that were tin covered, they did that process. They had a brass foundry that made hinges and the locks. So it was a very interesting place to go and to see. Also, there was a very close contact between my grandfather and all of the people who worked in the plant. He was always concerned when there was illness or trouble or the children needed some education. He’d go and call on them all and he knew them all. Then there was always the picnic, the annual picnic usually up at Bostwick Lake, and with all the workers and their families. There was a full day’s program of baseball and games. I remember watching my grandfather in the cigar smoking contest. He always could smoke that down to the pin faster than anybody else could. I told you that he was interested in what, today, we’d call management systems. He was the first person, I think, in the city to try to adopt some of the new ideas of efficiency in managing the plant. There was a Frenchman who was famous �6 for this; he was called an ―Efficiency Engineer,‖ named Charles Bedeaux. Have you ever come across that? Interviewer: No…… Mrs. Judd: It’s B E D E A U X, and he came and lived here all one winter and installed this efficiency system. He later married a Grand Rapids girl—this is just gossip on the side, I don’t know whether you want it or not--Interviewer: Who did he marry? Mrs. Judd: He married Fern Lombard, which was also an old family here, from Maine. They went back to France, and they became very wealthy, and they bought a beautiful big chateau, and when the Prince of Wales couldn’t find a place where he could marry—what’s the girl he married? Interviewer: The present Duchess…? Mrs. Judd: The American divorcee… Interviewer: Simpson, Mrs. Simpson. Mrs. Judd: Yes, Mrs. Simpson. They invited them to be married in their chateau. This is a story from the Lombards of Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Were they married there? Mrs. Judd: Yes. Bedeaux later became a Nazi in France and he was tried and, I think executed. I’m not sure about that; don’t put that down for a fact. About this time I came out of Vassar College, where I had majored in Economics and Political Science. I had taken some courses in labor management, so I came home to tell my grandfather how to run his labor problems. And you know he didn’t laugh at me, he took me seriously: and he took me out to the factory and he got out these great big charts of the organization of the factory, and talked to me just as though he were going to get ready to hire me for his personnel manager! I respected him very much for that, but this was the beginning of my interest in personnel work, which, of course, has pursued me clear down to the end of the state Civil Service Commission job a couple of years ago. In our family life, I think probably, like many families, my grandfather wanted to keep everybody close to him, and every Sunday we all went to their house for dinner. I can remember in the John Ball House there was a big dining room and a great big round table, and there were my father and each of his sisters and their families. In the end there were twelve grandchildren, but I don’t think we all sat around one table by that time. But it was just routine for everybody to go there for Sunday dinner. After a while my grandfather thought that—my grandmother, I should say--thought that that house was too big. There was too much work to be done in it, and I guess she, just to get away from Sunday dinners, anyways they sold the house without telling anybody. Oh my goodness, I can’t tell you how disappointed the family was because they loved that place. I can remember playing in the backyard. There was a big field back there then, between Gay Street and College. There was a cow in the field, and young Jo Brewer and I used to play house back �7 there; we’d cook and---. One of the games we played, all of us then, was an exchange of cigar bands. Did you ever hear of that; did you ever know that cigars had cigar bands? Interviewer: Oh, yes, I remember the cigar bands. Mrs. Judd: Oh, they were beautiful. You could get all kinds of great big gold seals on them, and everybody exchanged them. It was a great trading operation, and then you’d paste them on the bottom of a glass bowl. This was very decorative in the house. Well, anyway so they rented—no they bought a little house on Paris Avenue, about half way between Cherry and Wealthy. We were just squeezed in there; there just wasn’t room for anybody, and I guess it was worse for grandmother than having us all in the big house. So that’s when they built the house on Morris. You know that house on the corner of Morris and Logan? I guess, it’s one of the houses to be preserved in the Heritage Hill business, with the two story living room and the organ in it and the balcony over it. Here we had numerous weddings of the various cousins, and we had my grandmother’s funeral there. Grandpa used to bring professional organists who would come and stay for, say, a couple of weeks and have a series of organ concerts. This is where they had their golden wedding anniversary. Now, that was different from most golden wedding anniversary celebrations today. This was nineteen twenty-three. I think they were married in seventy-three. It was open house. They put it in the newspaper and everybody would be welcome. Of course, they had a host of friends and family, and then all the employees. They came with their families: it was really a wonderful affair. I can show you a few things I’ve put out there, one of which is a parchment that the employees gave to Grandma and Grandpa, at the time of their golden anniversary. They continued after they moved on Morris to develop houses for the family, all around them. At that time, straight through practically, on what’s now Prospect, used to be called Terrace Avenue, is where Frank Leonard lived, Grandpa’s brother, and their daughter [Evelyn Leonard] who became Mrs. Avery, and their son, Franklin. Across the street from them was one of Grandpa’s daughters [Jessie E. Leonard married Walter H. Whittier], the Whittier family. The Harvey family [Jennie M. Leonard married Frank A. Harvey] built a house I guess you designated for preservation on College Avenue between Wealthy and Logan. It’s a Spanish architecture. He had six daughters and they lived there. Then, as each of us grandchildren married, Grandpa gave us a house for a wedding present. Only three houses got built before Grandpa died, but one was on Morris. Oh, I forgot to mention that my father, my family, built kitty-cornered across from grandfather’s Morris Avenue house, on the south-east corner of Morris and Logan. That’s where I lived from the time I was fourteen. There was one of the grandchildren’s houses on Morris; one on College south of Logan; and then ours on Morris, right across the street between Logan and Wealthy. All these houses were together and the family Christmas dinners continued: and the family Thanksgiving dinners continued. There were always thirty-five or so of us for these dinners. Interviewer: Sounds like the Kennedy compound at Hyannis Port. Mrs. Judd: We weren’t the same political party, though. But, there was also a compound down at Highland Park. This isn’t Grand Rapids, but would you be interested in adding a bit about our life there? My grandparents bought a little cottage there in nineteen two. They’d been on Black Lake, but their cottage there burned down, so they bought this little cottage. Next to them was another cottage already built, so that was for the Whitter family; and then they built two more cottages on either side, for the Harvey family and for our family. The one they built for the �8 Harveys is still there, but there was a big fire in thirty-four that burned all the rest of these houses down. Next north of us was the McKee family who were also relatives. So there were five houses full of us. How the parents ever survived it, I’ll never know! But, you know, in those days you went down by interurban, which was an electric car. You went all the day down – you know that Highland Park was part of Grand Haven really, but we were just outside the city limits – and that went down the beach. There was a streetcar track, and the interurban came down to within about three hundred feet of our cottage, where there was what we called the loop. Every morning my father would get up at five o’clock, and they would catch this six o’clock ―Limited‖ they called it, that would take all the businessmen to Grand Rapids, - a two-hour trip. Every night he’d come back and we’d go down to the loop to meet our parents at seven o’clock. He did this every day because he said that the air down at Lake Michigan was something he just couldn’t miss for a single night. But when we’d go, we’d go for the season; we never dreamed of going back and forth. (End of side one) The trunks came down on the interurban and were loaded on great big trucks with big dray horses and were pulled down the beach. The men carried those trunks up maybe hundred steps and on up into our attic. The trunks didn’t come down again until the first day of school. By that time we were all packed up, and we’d put the blinds on the windows: and we moved to Grand Rapids and we never went back until the following July first. June was considered too cold a month to go down. You know? There were no roads, of course, behind those hills except farmers’ roads. The farmers would come with their vegetables and we youngsters used to go off with the farmer and see his farm. About everything had to be delivered down the beach. Even the ice for the refrigerators came down the beach. Can you imagine finding anybody today that would lug ice up those hundred steps on his back in the hot summer? The groceries came down [the beach too]. I remember one day, it was a very rough day, the boy delivering the groceries and his horse got thirsty. So he (the horse) just went out into the lake and the baskets all floated away. Another thing about our life there was the Fourth of July Celebration. My grandfather would bring down a whole trunk full of fireworks and it would be on the porch of his cottage. We could all go and help ourselves to firecrackers and…. Interviewer: Roman candles? Mrs. Judd: No, no that was at night, the adults ran those. But during the day there were all sorts of things, and once in a while a thumb nail would be blown off and somebody would have to be taken care of. Then at night the adults put on the show with the big fireworks down on the beach. That was a great family affair. Then, of course, my dad had to go to Chicago on business quite often, you know, in those days the customers of the refrigerator factory and the furniture factories, too, were the big department stores all over the country. So, we often had business in Chicago. The Goodrich boat line was running boats between Muskegon and Grand Haven and Milwaukee and Chicago. When dad would go, he’d go on the night boat and we’d all go up to Grand Haven to see him off. Then we’d come down to where the State Park is now. There was a little cement-block building that was the wireless station, which communicated with the boats without any wires. Then we’d go in and we’d send dad a message on the wireless. I suppose this was what preceded the radio. I don’t know how it really worked. �9 Now, let me see, I think I should tell you a little bit about the Carrs, because they’re not too far off from your Heritage Hill business. My grandfather married Emma Carr. They came from New Hampshire. He was a colonel in the Civil War. I had his sword, with Gettysburg and all the battles engraved on it. He went into the lumber business here, in about – well, they came West first in the fifties and grandmother was born in Illinois, and then the war came they went back to New Hampshire, because he was in the New Hampshire militia. I had his book on the practice rules for the New Hampshire militia; I sent it back to the New Hampshire museum. He built a house on the corner of Lyon and Bostwick, where it’s just been torn down for that new Junior College building that’s now about finished, I guess. It was a little New England farm house type of house; you know, in New England, often the oldest son, when he was married, or the oldest daughter would live in the same house with their parents, which was built as a sort of a double house, except for the kitchen. The kitchen would go clear across the back; it would be a common kitchen for both families. Well that’s what that house was like. I can remember, as a child, the family had long left it, but I can remember it as being really a colonial type of house. After that its architecture was ruined by being covered with shingles, with - - what is that stuff they use, it looks like shingles. Interviewer: I know what you mean, I call it funny brick. Mrs. Judd: Yes, and a little store was added to it, Perry’s Interviewer: Yes, or something. Mrs. Judd: Still, it was no longer an attractive house, but this was the house where my grandfather and Emma Carr were married and where my own father was born. My father was Harry Carr Leonard. You know, they first named him Noel Winslow Leonard, Winslow after Mariah, the stepmother and Noel, because he was born on Christmas. For the first two years, they called the little baby Winnie, and finally Mariah said, ―Emma, you cannot bring up a boy called Winnie, you have to change his name.‖ So, they changed it to Harry Carr Leonard. When he went to get a passport, he wasn’t registered anywhere in the state at all. Let me see, my father went to Purdue University because Grandma and Grandpa thought the University of Michigan was too tough a place to send their sixteen year old boy. Interviewer: He was sixteen when he went to college? Mrs. Judd: He was sixteen because, apparently, it wasn’t necessary to go four years to high school; he could get into the university with three years. But, my grandmother was very worried about her little boy, so she took him down to Lafayette, Indiana, and took him to the Baptist minister’s family and asked them to take care of him. The daughter of the family was my mother, and she went to Purdue University. She was one of fifty coeds in a school of about a thousand boys. Needless to say, she had a wonderful time. But when they were married, of course, they came back to Grand Rapids, because my father went into the refrigerator factory. I want to say a word about my mother, if I may; because she was I suppose one of the most loved women in all of Grand Rapids. She was very active in community affairs. She was a charter member of the Women’s University Club, which later became a branch of the American Association of University Women. She was always busy with the Visiting Nurses, which became Community Nursing. I think it’s called now. She was one of three that helped organize the first union of all �10 the social agencies for a single budget job, what we now call the United Fund, and used to be called Community… Interviewer: Community Chest? Mrs. Judd: Community Chest. But, when they started, it Ben Merrick was one of the three and I’ve forgotten the third. This was during the World War when it was so necessary to be more efficient about raising money for these needs. Ben Merrick and Mother called it the Welfare Union at that time. That was a very difficult job. I can remember Mother oh, being so depressed over the controversies and conflicts and jealousies among all the different agencies; each leader wanted their own, you know. Interviewer: I don’t think it’s much different today really. Mrs. Judd: No, well, it was quite an achievement and then, of course, she was very active in Fountain Street church, as all of the family were. I think it’s the sixth or seventh generation now in the Fountain Street Church. The Leonards were always extremely active in it. My Uncle Frank Leonard, Mrs. [Noyes] Avery’s father, was chairman of the Board of Trustees for, oh I don’t know about twenty years or more. When he died my grandfather succeeded him. So, there was a period of forty or fifty years when these men took the leadership in the church; and of course mother was a great supporter of Dad when he was doing that. I can remember in the old church, you know, that burned down in nineteen sixteen or seventeen, the same corner where the church is now – every Thanksgiving, the night before Thanksgiving, we had a big church dinner. I don’t know how the women ever got through. They did all the cooking, the members of the church; we didn’t have any professional cooks in those days. They cooked that great big dinner on Wednesday and had their own family dinners on Thursday. My father always carved all the turkeys for the gang, and his way of carving turkey was neat, and he became quite famous for this. Dad ran down after the furniture factory was sold and went into the public life and became a member of the city commission, you know, he was on it for eight years, and there was a lot of controversy. Let me see, I should tell you something about me? I was born on John Street; that was in a house that my grandfather bought for my father and his wife when they were married. That’s where I was born. Of course, nobody was born in a hospital in those days; they were always born at home. That house has just been torn down in the past year or two. There were twin houses, and there was just a driveway between us and the one to the east of us bordered on the Immen House, which has recently been bought by those architects, up there on the corner: that big white house on the corner of Lafayette and John. The house to the south of us, when I was young, was occupied part of the time by the Charles Garfield family; you know the man who gave his farm for the Garfield park. He was one of Grand Rapids finest man. I don’t know of any leader in the history of Grand Rapids that I can think of who was a finer man than that. His wife was the maid of honor in Grandma and Grandpa’s wedding. John Street was a great place for coasting. You could go up to the top of the hill and, of course, there was very little traffic and you could coast down the hill and cross Barclay Street, down thru an alley next to the St. Cecilia until you got to, what is that street called? Interviewer: Ransom? �11 Mrs. Judd: Let me see. Yes, Ransom. Near the park. Interviewer: That’s quite a ride. Mrs. Judd: That’s quite a ride, yes. One of the stories my mother used to tell was how on my way up to Fountain Street School, I would draw my little sister up on a sled up to the top of the hill and then just give her a shove, and I’d go on to school. She was really rather small to make that trip all by herself. Then, of course, the groceries were delivered in the wintertime in sleighs, because there was always snow on the streets. So, one of our fun things to do was to stand on the sleds of the grocery sleigh, and go all over town with the grocery boy. If you can imagine letting a youngster of that age do it now! I was sent down to the grocery store often by myself when I was four and five years old. It was located where Rood’s China Store is now. I had to cross Fulton street and Jefferson. There were no lights; there were no automobiles; it was a very safe thing to do. We had a big garden back of us and we had three great big apple trees. We always picked the apples and spread them out on the floor in the attic, put newspapers over them, and then we had apples all winter long. We had, in the basement, big potato bins; we’d buy our potatoes in season and use them all winter there. Then we had tremendous big closets in the basement for canned goods and, of course, there was a big job in the fall doing all the canning. The furnace was a coal burning furnace, and I can remember my father getting up in his white night shirt at five o’clock on an icy morning, going downstairs and starting the fire to keep the rest of us warm. We had gas lights, and the mantles. You know what a mantle is? A gas mantle? They were always burning out or breaking – making trouble. I went to the Fountain Street School. This was the building that my father had gone to school in. I can remember once a boy threw a snowball at the wall and you could see the crack from the inside. It was getting that old. That was where the Central High School is now. We had a great big playground – they owned as much land as they do now for Central – and it was all in tall grass and big trees. We played games around the stumps. At the back of the lot there was an old rickety barn, where there were horses, and we’d feed the horses, for fun, during our recess. Then, finally, the Board of Education decided to build a high school there. I was in the fifth grade then. The first thing they did was to build a gymnasium. That was the end of our playground. Then they put the elementary school into the gymnasium and built the classrooms there. So, I had my sixth grade in the gym. For the seventh and eighth grade we went to Central Grammar, which was the old high school, older than the one they’re about to tear down now, which I guess you mostly remember as Strong Junior High. Interviewer: Which building would that be, the one on Barclay? Between Barclay and Ransom? Mrs. Judd: It was on, well this is Central Grammar I’m talking about was on the corner of Barclay and Lyon. It’s vacant land now. Interviewer: Oh, just adjacent to what is the East Building of J.C. Mrs. Judd: That’s right, there was no East building then. It was the old High School. Preliminary to that building was the Stone Building, that’s where my grandmother and grandfather went to high school back in the eighties. This Central Grammar was also a very old building. The principal was Mrs. Goss. I guess I should mention the fact that when school started, or when school was out, the pupils all lined up from their room to march downstairs and out; and in the �12 morning nobody could come into the building until they all lined up and marched into the building. Mrs. Goss would not let us march in rhythm because she said if we got too much rhythm going the building would fall down. I was in the first class to enter the new Central High School as a freshman in nineteen twelve. My grandfather Leonard was a member of the Board of Education; you’ll find his name up there on the plaque, when the building was built. That was a wonderful experience, that high school experience. We had marvelous teachers in those days. They went on, most of them, to become teachers in the Junior College. We had a lunchroom, and we had all our parties in the lunchroom. Of course, the floor was very rough. When a club had a party there, they’d go up Saturday morning and put cornmeal all over the floor and slide all morning long to get the floor so it was good enough to dance on. By this time I was living down on Logan and Morris. There were the most whole lot of wonderful young people who lived up and down Madison. We called it the Madison Avenue crowd. The first one lived near Franklin Street, and then we always walked to school; of course nobody ever dreamed of having to be driven to school. We’d gradually pick up one person after another all the way up Madison until we got to about Washington. And that was the Madison Avenue crowd. Our parties were always in people’s homes. We didn’t have clubs to go to, we did, but it wasn’t the place for young people. Many of the homes had ballrooms, and player pianos for our music, and we had a wonderful time. At Christmas time there were engraved invitations for every single night of the Christmas vacation; come to somebody’s house for a dance. Let’s see. There was a house I wanted to mention next to Central High School. I think of all the houses you people are preserving, this one would have been the most wonderful one to have had. It belonged to the Baars. It was set back in a great big yard with lots of trees. It was a little frame Gothic house with all the lace and pointed roofs. It was really darling place. It’s too bad that it disappeared. Interviewer: I wonder if I could ask you a question right now. You mentioned that your husband lived on the West side of Grand Rapids, and you lived on the East side of Grand Rapids, and your family, obviously, a very substantial family. How did you and your husband meet? Mrs. Judd: Union High school was only three year high school and all of their students had to come to Central for their senior year. Now you must know that some of Grand Rapids most prominent families lived on the West side in those days, the Tuttles, and the Baldwins. Oh, Siegel can tell you a large number of them. When he was a senior his family moved over here to be closer to the school, and that’s where I met him – was in high school. He went to Dartmouth and I went to Vassar; and then he went on to the First World War. He was in Dartmouth in the war, and he enlisted in the Navy and went on to Annapolis and got his commission in the regular Navy from Annapolis training, then came back here and went to law school. In those days, nobody married until they were able to support a wife, and so I had to wait about two years for him to finish law school and get a job before he would marry. This was pretty tough. I finally got a job myself. I taught at Central High. Oh, I wanted to mention this thing about Central High School, too. I taught there for four years, from nineteen twenty-one to twenty-five. During that time, of course, when I was in high school they played football out here at Ramona. But during that time that I taught, the board bought Houseman Field. It was very wet, and there was no money to drain it, so the students decided to do it. The boys were organized, of course they had the engineering guidance, but they were organized to dig the trenches back and forth across the field and lay the tile, and fill it in. this was all done in one Saturday. The girls organized to get the lunch and bring it and serve it. I organized the girls for this so every time I drive by Houseman Field, I have a sense of pride about Houseman Field. There was something else about �13 high school. Ramona meant a great deal to us. It’s not in your Heritage Hill district, but it was a great amusement park. The route out there was through the woods. You see, it was way out of town. It belonged to the streetcar company; of course, we helped them make that business. They had summer cars that didn’t have any walls on the sides and the seats went clear across and the conductor collected the fares (of course they had both the motor man and the conductor) by walking along that step along the edge it. On a hot summer day, before we had the cottage, mother would take us and we’d get on that streetcar, and we’d ride out to Ramona. Then we’d stay on it and it would go back downtown and ride out to North Park. We would get some ice cream there and then come home; that was our summer outing. The outdoor theatre at Ramona had the best Keith Vaudeville that there was in the country. It was just a dandy place to go for the summer evenings. Then there was the O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club. Did you ever hear of that? Oh, that was a beautiful clubhouse, built right over the edge of the water. It was a three-storied building with a beautiful ballroom that looked out over the water, and a balcony, and underneath it were the canoes. You could go there and have a canoe ride or you could have a beautiful dance. During the war I can remember many dances out there for the boys in uniform. It was a lovely place, it burned down. Mr. Hanchett – did you ever hear of the Philipine band? Mr. Hanchett was the head of the streetcar company. His house is one of your houses for preservation, on College, the red stone house just north of Cherry Street. Interviewer: Right next to the Voigt house, isn’t it? Mrs. Judd: Yes, just to the south of the Voigt house. He brought a Filipino band to Grand Rapids and it stayed about a year, I think. He would put them on his streetcar that would go out to Ramona. They would be playing out there, you see. This attracted a great deal of business to Ramona. Then later the Hanchetts moved and bought the house where the Bissells live now, across from the hospital on the corner of Wealthy and Plymouth. They built a big ballroom on the back of it, and there were many dances there with the Filipino Band. We had a very happy life as young people. We used to have to have chaperones in the automobiles that drove us to the party, but I don’t think that really hampered us very much. Interviewer: I’d like to ask you a question right now; it’s a question I asked everybody that grew up during that period of time. What do you think Mrs. Judd, thinking back, what was it that ended that era? Mrs. Judd: Oh, I think the automobile more than anything else. In the first place, it ruined the streetcar business, and the interurban business. My father was on the city commission and the one who insisted that the streetcar tracks be removed from Monroe Street and the street be repaved clear across so it would be good pavement. Many cities simply paved on either side and left the streetcar tracks. Now, that was nineteen thirty -(?) it was during the depression, I guess it was one way of giving more employment-thirty-four or thirty-five along on there. Interviewer: You’d say it was the automobile more than anything. Mrs. Judd: Oh, I think so. It made life go faster, it made people get off their feet and sit on their fannies, [and] this I think, prevented lot of camaraderie that we used to have as a group when we went back and forth to school, to say nothing of what it did to our physiques. Well, I suppose the movies really destroyed the amusement park, although it wore out. The roller coaster was going �14 to kill somebody if they didn’t take it down. Maybe people just got too sophisticated for that kind of amusement. It did kill the vaudeville circuit. The first movie I ever went to was on Monroe Street, just about where Goebel and Brown’s store is now. It was called the Monroe Vaudette. It was five cents and there was an organ; and that’s where I saw Mary Pickford and Charlie Chaplin, but never with my mother’s permission. Oh, she didn’t believe in it; I had to sneak in and not tell her. But Grand Rapids was a city that had the best Broadway theatre in those days. I saw all the leading Shakespearean actors. All the operettas came. You talk to Siegel about operetta; he was crazy about operetta and music, of course. He used to go to all of them and sit in the top gallery, which they called then something I won’t mention. Maude Adams, Billie Burke, all the people right off the Broadway companies stopped here. Now, the reason, I think, was the furniture industry and the markets. I’m going to leave that for Siegel to tell you because he can make a very interesting story about it. Interviewer: Well, I think we’ve covered everything that I wanted to cover, and you certainly were well prepared. Mrs. Judd: Well, I tell you, I’ve been in the process of trying to write a story about my grandfather, for the family. There’s a lot of research necessary, the kind of research I wish you people had done on the Heritage House houses. I know where the buildings were that my grandfather built, so to find out when they were built and what became of them afterwards, I started out in the city hall in the Assessor’s office, where you have to look up things by address. I got the history of assessment of that particular property; you can sometimes tell by the, say, quick jump in the assessment that’s there’s been a new building or something put there. Then, to find out who the owners were, you take the numbers off the assessment that each property has and then you go over to Michigan Trust Building, where the abstract company is. With that number they will give you the abstract from the beginning. The first properties that my grandfather built on were in the village of Grand Rapids – or village of Kent, I’ve forgotten, I mean it dates back that far – and then you can pursue the ownership of that piece of property that way. I don’t know whether you know I was on that little committee that went over all the history of the houses to determine which ones were historically worth preserving. I noticed that one was listed as the Wagemaker house on Lyon Street. Now, that really is the Idema house. If you want the history of that house, you could go to Chester Idema or Walter Idema. Interviewer: He’s one of the fellows that I’m going to be interviewing next week. Mrs. Judd: Is he? Well, you get him. I asked him about it quite recently because I was perturbed that the name of it was Wagemaker, when really the Idemas, you know were the heads of the bank and one of the biggest families. Their house on the corner of College and Washington, north of the Voigts, was the later house. But that’s something that really ought to go in your Heritage Hill area. Interviewer: OK. �15 INDEX A Avery, Mrs. Noyes · 6, 8, 11 B Baldwin Family · 13 Bedeaux, Charles · 6, 7 Bedeaux, Fern Lombard · 6 C Central Grammar School · 12, 13 Central High School · 12, 13, 14 Community Chest · 11 D Dartmouth · 13 F Fountain Street Church · 5, 11 Frigidaire · 3, 4 G Goss, Mrs. · 13 H H. Leonard and Sons · 5, 6 Hanchett, Mr. · 14 Harvey Family · 8 Leonard, Emma Carr (Grandmother) · 7, 8, 9, 10, 13 Leonard, Harry Carr (Father) · 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15 Leonard, Heman (Great-Grandfather) · 4, 5 Leonard, Mariah Winslow · 4 Leonard, Willie Thomas Stansbury (Mother) · 1, 4, 5, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 M Martin, John · 2 McKee Family · 8 Meade, Richard Mrs. · 2 O O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club · 14 P Purdue University · 10 R Ramona Park · 14 Reed’s Lake · 2 S Simpson, Mrs. · 7 T Tuttle Family · 13 U I University of Michigan · 10 Idema Family · 16 V J Judd, Siegel (Husband) · 1, 5, 13, 15 Vassar College · 7 Visiting Nurses · 10 K W Kelvinator · 3, 4 L Leonard, Charles H. (Grandfather) · 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 15 Wagemaker Family · 15, 16 Whittier Family · 8 Women’s University Club · 10 �16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/44402fc843dc870171fd2f87949c3eee.mp3 6a77bde69b7f8311662638b93752a15a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_13Judd Title A name given to the resource Judd, Dorothy Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Judd, Dorothy Description An account of the resource Dorothy Leonard was born in 1898 in Grand Rapids. She studied economics and political science at Vassar College and had an interest in city government. Her grandfather, Charles H. Leonard, was the inventor of the refrigerator. Mrs. Judd was the keeper of her grandfather's patents. She married Siegel Judd in 1922. She died in 1989. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/627d47331523b089fb1eaaf03a9eea86.pdf 879897e64026b6864a68dd24586739b8 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Siegel Judd Interviewed on September 28, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 20 & 21 (47:25) Biographical Information Siegel Judd was born Siegel Wright on 19 June 1895 in Leoti, Wichita County, Kansas, the son of Addison J. Wright. His parents died and he was adopted as an infant by his father’s sister and her husband, Lillian V. Wright and Edward C. Judd. Siegel died in Grand Rapids on 2 September 1982. Siegel was married to Dorothy S. Leonard 29 June 1922 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Dorothy was born 14 September 1898 in Grand Rapids, the daughter of Harry Carr Leonard and Willie Thomas Stansbury. Dorothy died 14 February 1989 at Porter Hills Presbyterian Village. ___________ Interviewer: This interview with Siegel Judd was conducted September 28, 1971. Interviewer: Let’s start with…about your family and so on. Were you…were you born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Judd: No, I was born out there in Leoti, Kansas about fifteen miles from the Colorado line… Western Colorado, Colorado line. And, you mean you want me to go on and tell what I just told you? Interviewer: Sure, that’s a good story. Mr. Judd: Well, my family, my ancestors came from western New York and came out when the Erie Canal was opened in eighteen thirty and came to Michigan in eighteen thirty-five, it was. And my ancestor at that time was a Continental Soldier and he’d been granted some land in Michigan that… what’s now in Alpine Township and so he came out here to farm it and he brought his seven sons and came down the Grand River on a raft. That’s the way others were coming in here at that time. You see, that wasn’t such a long time after this town was founded by Campau. I think it was in eighteen twenty-one or twenty-five, along in there. But there were many people coming from New York State. My family came out there and their names were Wright. You want me to tell that part of the story? Interviewer: If you want to. Mr. Judd: Well I don’t know as it makes a lot of difference… Interviewer: Okay. �2 Mr. Judd: That’s incidental really. But my father, who was a generation or two after the ancestor who came out here, wasn’t caring much for the farming life in Alpine Township so he and his two cousins-other Wrights-decided to go out to Kansas, [to] see what they could do out there in the way of taking up some land. And my father was in a little town-all three boys were-a little town called Leoti and my father married the school marm in the town, a very small village. And he… what should I say he was short lived out there because there was no doctor in the town and he’d taken sick and the town druggist, by mistake, gave him a dose of lignum which killed him and I was born about three months after he died and my mother died about three months after I was born and her sister was… she was the school teacher in this village and so my aunt here, a Mrs. Judd-my father’s sister, went out to Kansas and brought me back to Grand Rapids where I’ve lived all my life. And they formally adopted me and that’s why I have the name Judd instead of Wright. That’s … Interviewer: Where did you go to high school in Grand Rapids? Mr. Judd: Well, I went… we lived on the west side on Scribner Street and Tenth and I went to Turner Street School, which is still there, and Union School. At that time, Union School High School went to the tenth grade so when, when I got through the tenth grade I came over here to Central High School and then my family moved over here on the east side and I graduated from Central High School in ninteen fourteen. Then, I went with a couple of boys from… graduated at that time, we went out to Kansas to work in the wheat fields. Interviewer: Oh really? Mr. Judd: I can see where my father might not have liked that, too. But we worked all one summer and wound up in Saskatchewan, Canada, following the harvest up…know that’s a detail… but after that I went to Dartmouth to college. I was there three years when the First World War broke out and in May of nineteen seventeen everybody went to war. I mean everybody went down and enlisted. And I went to the Naval Training Station at Newport, Rhode Island and was in the Navy two, two and a half years. That was the first of the year and I don’t know if you want this detail, do you? Interviewer: That’s alright, you got out of the Navy and you went to… Mr. Judd: I got out of the Navy and I went to law school down in Ann Arbor. Then I came here and I practiced here ever since. I started in twenty-one and now it’s seventy-one – so that’s fifty years. Interviewer: You’ve specialized in corporate law. Mr. Judd: Almost entirely. Interviewer: Can you tell me about some of the early businesses in Grand Rapids-the lumber business for example and what happened to it? �3 Mr. Judd: Well, when I started practicing law in twenty-one, there were many lumber companies in Western Michigan and all north of here. And that was because there was a lot of virgin timber and they were all cutting it and, of course, selling this. And the way they marketed it they cut the timber and in the north got the…floated the logs down the Muskegon River and the Pere Marquette and the Grand River and that was the easiest way of transporting them. There wasn’t any railroads at that time. And then at the mouth of the rivers, sawmills sprung up and they’d saw the logs up into lumber and then, with the Great Lakes here, they could ship at very low cost this lumber all, like Chicago, Detroit, all around at much less cost than the railroads that were then coming in. And here in Grand Rapids, there were some sawmills but there were bigger ones at Spring Lake and also what is now Port Sheldon, there was a big, big mill there and a hotel. You wouldn’t think so now down there but there was and, as a matter of fact, after the town died because they ran out of raw materials to cut with and those towns just died out. But the pillars that you have on the Art Museum here were on one of the hotels at Port Sheldon. Interviewer: Is that right? Mr. Judd: That was supposed to be classical Greek hotel and architecture those were saved and brought up here. If you’re interested in that kind of detail it’s… Interviewer: How did these guys like Blodgett and some of the other families that made tremendous fortunes out of the lumber industry-how did they get the concessions to the land? Mr. Judd: They got ‘em from the government. It was easy to get them because the government wanted to develop the country and Grand Rapids-well the Blodgetts, for example, started way back in the seventies. Delos [Abiel] Blodgett came out here from Massachusetts, I think. And it’s been three generations of ‘em. Of course, now they haven’t any timber in Michigan to cut and, of course, the White-Friant Company was the big company. There were a lot of ‘em. Interviewer: Was that a local company? Mr. Judd: Yes, as a matter Friant’s house is that stone house up on the Northeast corner of Union and Cherry and one of our boys in here bought it-John Logie. Interviewer: Oh yes.. Mr. Judd: Of course, the Whites built that beautiful home up next to-well it’s part of Davenport School now-on the northeast corner of Prospect and Fulton. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Judd: First, as the new office building was built in there and the next building east is the old White home. And, oh, there were a lot of lesser fortunes but those-the Whites were the big ones and, of course, the Blodgetts particularly. And the Blodgetts stayed in the timber business after it all cut off here and went out to California and now disposed of all their timber business. When they, just ‘til a few years ago, they had large holdings out in California, Northern California. �4 Interviewer: Well, are there any Whites and Friants still left in Grand Rapids? Mr. Judd: There’s only one White and there are no Friants that I know of but White, the founder of the business-the father-he had five sons and one of them is still here. And that’s Norton Rugee White who lives, I think, on Plymouth. He’s about the only one. Their mother was the cook in the lumber camp and she was a very energetic woman and when they made money, she moved the family to Grand Rapids and saw to it…are you interested in these details? Interviewer: Yes Mr. Judd: Mrs. White saw to it that her five sons were well educated. And the oldest one [Stewart Edward White] turned out to be a writer of quite some standing. He wrote novels, a lot of ‘em about the timber game-you can credit a lot of the history about the timber business…the lumber business from some of his books. He was a very popular writer. He had his stories in the Saturday Evening Post at the time when that was flourishing very much. He wrote a book called The Riverman. That was a pretty good book. I don’t know these details you care about but when you add that up you can cut these things out. But the second one was [Thomas Gilbert White]…she took him… he went to Paris and studied there at one of the art schools and he turned out to be quite a famous painter and was a great racketeer. And then she had a third son who she wanted to be a musician and she took him to Saint Petersburg, Russia, and he studied with Leopold Auer who was the great teacher of the violin at that time. He didn’t make the success, though, that the other two did. And then there were two more boys and Rugee is one of them. And then the other one, Vici, who was somewhat of a writer, too. But that was quite a family here at that time. None live here except Rugee. In fact, I think they’re all dead. Interviewer: Where did the Friant family go? Mr. Judd: I don’t know about the Friants too much. But they were partners in the White-Friant Lumber Company. Many of these lumbermen who lived here in Grand Rapids used to go out to California in the winter time. They had homes out there, Santa Barbara particularly. The Whites had it; I think the Friants did. Interviewer: Why did they choose California rather than Florida? Mr. Judd: Well, Florida wasn’t developed at that time. Florida really didn’t get started in any big way until the twenties. I went down there in nineteen twenty-three with…I don’t know whether you knew Harold Fletcher, the real estate man here or not… wanted to buy some land. And Harry Goodspeed who owned the real estate around-you’d be surprised how undeveloped that was at that time. The shore-beautiful shore-and quite a lot of cottages like there’d be along Lake Michigan. None of this large stuff but the jungle was right behind it. So that was late, but they went out to California because of the climate and it was a very fashionable thing to do. Interviewer: Well, when did the lumbering business here die? The lumbering business, did that had an effect on the development on the furniture industry here? �5 Mr. Judd: Oh sure. It furnished the raw material for the furniture factory and that’s why they started here. And I mentioned this water power being one natural resource-the lumber was another. Those two combined were the reason they had furniture companies start up here. Interviewer: Water power… could you review that a little bit? Mr. Judd: Well, the Grand River-called the Grand Rapids-meant there was a fall in the stream. There were rapids and those were up north of here. They manufactured, built power damsyou’ve seen how they work. There was a channel on each side of the river and the dams would shunt the water into those channels. The channels would go through wheels, you see, that would turn around and turn the machinery. And they also had on both sides of the rivers… they just recently wound up the last one and that’s with the Voigt Milling Company-they had a milling flour mill over on what was then Bridge Street but now is Michigan over on the west side and another one down here at Pearl Street. The mills have been taken down now but…so you see the water power was good to grind the wheat into flour, too. And so we had up here the Lilly White Flour Mill. I don’t know whether you ever heard of that and then there was the Voigt Milling Company, and Blue Ribbon or something of that sort. But that was the power, too, and now when the power was giving out, I mean when there was less water in the Grand River, there was less water because they cut away the trees. When they cut away the trees, you let the water all run off in the spring when the snow melts and it goes off in a hurry and then the rest of the time you haven’t got this full head of water like you do when the woods are there and it melts and gradually runs off. So that’s how it gradually gave out and so the furniture companies that had been built along there got into steam plants and burned coal and generated power by that method. Water power passed practically out of existence. And where the Rowe Hotel is down there was the end of the-no it wasn’t either-it was down on Pearl Street. I was going to say the canal but these furniture factories were built right over the canals. They’d have these wheels that the waters passed by would turn. Interviewer: Well, in other words… Mr. Judd: Just the regular fashion that they did in old days. Everywhere, you got water. Interviewer: In other words, all along the canal where the canal began to where it ended… Mr. Judd: That’s right. Interviewer: …there were furniture businesses built along the river? Mr. Judd: That’s right-and these flour mills too. Interviewer:: Yes. Were they… ? Mr. Judd: …but mainly for furniture. Interviewer: Were those on both the east and the west side of the river? �6 Mr. Judd: Well, the flour mills-yes-the Lilly White was right where the post office is now and the Voigt Mill had two. They had one up across the bridge and in those days it was a covered wooden bridge with a covered roof, you know, like you used to see in New Hampshire and up there. Interviewer: When did those furniture factories come down-the ones that were right along the river here? Mr. Judd: When did they start? Interviewer: No, when were they torn down? Mr. Judd: Well, they kind of died off during the depression in the thirties. The factors that caused it was the loss of water power and it was more expensive then to generate power by steam and the natural resources cut off. I mean most of it had been harvested up north. And then, thirdly, is the invasion, you might say, of the automobile business where they would pay higher wages than was paid in the furniture business. And the furniture business up until just fairly recently has been a lower wage paying business. And so the boys in the next generation-their fathers went into the automobile game or businesses that made parts for automobiles-and that still goes. Lot of… Interviewer: Lot of automotive-related industry in Grand Rapids? Mr. Judd: Oh yes, oh yes, sure-and there’s any number of parts people around. Even the Keeler Brass Company, a very successful brass company, they make metal parts for automobiles-do a lot of business with Ford-not just…they started up to make brass fittings to go on the furniturelike drawer pulls… Interviewer: Oh yes. Mr. Judd: …that sort of thing. And they did a fine job of this. In fact, they went and manufactured for other furniture centers, too. There, you see, were not any furniture factories in the south that amounted to anything and this was the town that made the quality furniture the furniture business-and still is but there’s very little of it left. Interviewer: Now, why did the furniture companies move south-a lot of these companies? Mr. Judd: Well, they got lower labor rates, you see. Interviewer: Oh. Mr. Judd: In North Carolina, they were near a source of supply. There is lumber down there but not many of the hard woods we had up here and they didn’t have the competition for labor that the automobile industry gave to the furniture industry. And that’s about it Interviewer: Yes. �7 Mr. Judd: Also, the furniture industry was hard hit by the depression of the thirties and a lot of my law business at that time was helping furniture people to get cash to get money to keep going. And, you see, their sales dropped off in the depression. People didn’t have the money to buy furniture and then when they thought…saw a chance to start up…why, they needed money and I don’t know about telling you about myself but we did the log business, too, so I got learned about the RFC which is a Reconstruction Finance Corporation in Washington that Hoover started before Roosevelt was elected, for the purpose of making loans to industry and commercial companies. See, everybody needed money in the depression. And so I went down to Washington and got a charter to form one for Michigan. And this was a corporation down there that made these loans, like the government loans people today, but the method then was through corporations that they could control. So I got a charter and got a couple of bankers here who were unemployed because of the bank holiday to look after it and we made loans to any number of companies that suffered during the thirties or when the banks closed. Not just around Grand Rapids but all around here. Greenville, over there the Gibson Furniture Company, furniture companies down in Holland and many of the furniture companies here-the Luce Furniture Company, you remember that one? It was a large one down on Godfrey Avenue. And Berkey and Gay but they never…-we got all our money back for the government by about the time the war started but they were all financially weak and we got money for them with this company and of course it made law business, too. Had to run down to Washington with all these loans and get ‘em approved down there. There was a lot tighter control in those days when the government was helping out than it seems to me that there are today when the government is making these loans. But there… that was a new thing for the government to step in and help private industry. Today, it’s expected but then it was surprising. Interviewer: Um hum. Mr. Judd: So we were…that way we got quite a few clients ‘cause they stayed with us after we kept ‘em alive. That may be beside the point but… Interviewer: It’s a… Mr. Judd: But gradually, you see, some local manufacturers went down to North Carolina because of the labor rate advantage and they got competition from people who were already down there and these people-because of the low rate or wage paying industry, why, they didn’t get people that cared to go into it. They wanted to go into higher [paying] work for General Motors or work for Chrysler or somebody with…or some companies that are furnishing products to them. Interviewer: What were-besides the furniture industry-what were some of the other businesses here that were thriving, perhaps, around the turn of the century up until… Mr. Judd: Well, there was… there were a number of wholesale houses we called ‘em. That is they’d be like, well, there’s not really any left today but there were companies that would buy quantities of household things and household products and also products needed in business in connection with the lumbering up north and so forth. Grand Rapids in that period was quite a �8 distributing point of merchandise of that kind. And these companies, well, there was the Worden Grocery Company. They would buy large quantities of groceries and sell ‘em to the little grocers on the street corners and they would step in between the manufacturers of the food products and the small grocers. There were no chain stores then, you see. There was no Kroger or people like that around. There’s just these little grocery stores in the neighborhoods. Do you remember that or don’t you go back that far? Interviewer: No, I don’t go back that far. Mr. Judd: Oh, sure. Your mother would tell you here’s a dimem go down to the grocery store on the corner and get two loaves of bread or something like that. We were always running to stores like that and that was small business. But these wholesale houses would buy large quantities and they would ship farther north. We worked sort of the beginning of the north and of course there was a demand for food and household products ‘cause the people were building houses north and these lumber camps were big buyers, you see, or customers. Dorothy’s father or grandfather, Mr. Leonard, he used to travel up to the… he told me he’d travel up to the lumber camps north of here and sell ‘em lamp chimneys and oil lamps and all sorts of things like that, kitchenware… Interviewer: How many men would be in a camp like that up north? Mr. Judd: I don’t know, but they were pretty large and they were a pretty rough and tough customers, too. They’d be up there in the woods, get down here Saturday night and it used to be a big night in Grand Rapids and they used to see some pretty rough times in those days. Interviewer: Do you remember any of that? Mr. Judd: Yes, some, when I lived on the west side. Of course we had a lot of saloons. There wasn’t much. Well, there was whiskey drunk, too, but there were a lot of saloons. Down here on this corner of Michigan and Monroe there were a saloons on each corner except this near corner and that was a drug store. But that was the same thing as a saloon really in those days, too. And it was, well …the hotels did a big bar business. Everybody…Morton and Sweets Hotel which is what later became Pantlind Hotel… When the boys came in from the north, stay a week or so. Why, there was a lot going on. Man: What, when you were…you grew up on the west side predominantly…? Mr. Judd: Yes. Man: When you came over to the east side to… Mr. Judd: Central… Interviewer: Central High School, that was in the tenth grade? Mr. Judd: Yes, I went in the eleventh and twelfth grades �9 Interviewer: Was the east side considered like that-where Central School is up on the hill and the homes in the Hill District was. Was that considered very fashionable? Mr. Judd: Oh yes. Interviewer: Was there… Mr. Judd: Yes, they used to call it-some used to call it-Quality Hill... that was, some of the residents. I remember Mr. Booth, Ted Booth’s father, who lives on Fountain Street there and his pictures of his house was in the paper the other day. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Judd: …beautiful house. I think Mr. Shelby built it. Remember Mr. Booth used to always refer to it as Quality Hill. And his son, Ted, was in high school when I was and that’s how I happened to hear his father say that because we got around his house once in a while. He was a very fine man but that was the attitude and it was entirely justified. That whole area out there was beautiful. Now that Stickley House-I haven’t heard that mentioned much but that’s the house on Prospect between Fountain and Fulton. It’s one of the high…of these large white pillars and yellow brick. Now, Stickley was a furniture manufacturer, too, and he had a big business and he built that beautiful home but his business didn’t survive the depression of the thirties. It wasn’t one of the companies that we found a loan for but he had a hard time and just went out of business. And it was by that time, see, the late thirties,. they were beginning to feel the competition of North Carolina so they and those boys weren’t as young as they had been and their sons didn’t care about the business but there wasn’t the incentive either to keep it going. Interviewer: Did that happen very often where businesses were started by… Mr. Judd: Oh yes, they were family institutions. Families from generation to generation handed ‘em down but they say in the thirties a furniture business wasn’t attractive to the young men with ambition. I don’t know as I ought to say that, what else, there were other things that offered more reward, I think. And they felt that way now you see. Or the families sort of died out or the Widdicombes, their younger generation, went East to school. One of them went to London and they got away from here. And there was the Gunn Furniture Company-they made showcases and library cases. Still, you can see that up near the so-called junction on Ann Street. That was a flourishing business until the First World War and Mr. Gunn, the owner, who was the son of the founder, went to England to live and lived in London for quite a while and his right-hand man, Mr. Homiller, who’s a very capable manufacturer, ran the show and Mr. Gunn didn’t come back ‘til the First World War got going, came over here. He’s abroad…lived there. He’s very well. So… and his son didn’t have any interest in it and so that was sold and then there’s this Kent Furniture, Imperial Furniture Company up near Ann Street-the red brick one. The Foote family built that and they did a big business. But, it’s the Depression-hurt all those and they really never got going again for one reason or another… �10 Interviewer: Well, was there any … one thing I don’t want to forget is you said before that your mother would give you a dime and tell you to run down to the corner grocery store and there weren’t any chain stores at the time. Mr. Judd: Oh no, there weren’t. Interviewer: At that time were there more a neighborhood shopping areas than there are today? Mr. Judd: Oh yes, well, you see, yes in every… well I’ll take where I lived. There was a drug store-or not a drug store-well, on Sixth Street was quite a little center-commercial center-with a drug store on Sixth Street and Broadway. And there was a meat market and a grocery store on Sixth Street and Scribner and up at Eighth Street which was... . I think it was another grocery store and Leonard Street was quite a busy street on the West Side up there. There was, oh, meat markets and grocery stores and some little dry good places and cobblers who… that sort of thing. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Judd: And then Bridge Street, of course, here was… that’s Michigan…that was a busy street on the west side. That was commercial all the way out, but, yes, it…over where I lived at Eleventh Street, which is one block up Broadway, there was a grocery store-a lot of little stores like that. But they… the twenties and the, well, really the thirties-places kind of went out of business because they couldn’t compete with these larger concerns. Interviewer: Were there well-to-do families living on the west side? Mr. Judd: Oh yes. There were these German families that I mentioned… all did well. And they had nice homes. And, let’s see, Scribner Street was quite a street but as far as fine homes are concerned, near us there was a very fine home just south of Tenth Street on Scribner. We lived on the corner of Tenth and Scribner. Built by a man named Chick and he was representative of a man in Boston, an investor who had sent Chick out here to look after his interest in the plaster mines, you know. That was developing… going pretty well. It still is going. It belongs to U.S. Gypsum but [James W.] Converse spent…invested quite a lot of money out in Michigan and that man, Chick, had a beautiful home and saddle horses and all that. That was on Scribner Street. Doesn’t look like much now. Then right behind it on Turner Street, I keep thinking that a family was Alt but it wasn’t, but they had a beautiful home and, at that day, an oval glass plate. Oval front door was the thing and a large oval glass there and, of course, curtains behind it-but they were nice homes. Not like on the hill here but, as a matter of fact, originally Front Street over here started to be a good residential street in the early day of Grand Rapids-up at First Street and Second Street and along in there. They used to be, when I was a kid, some lovely homes there-and there were post Civil War homes. And some of them were a lot of sandstone homes that were very attractive homes. But when industry got going strong, why, they moved out. Interviewer: Was that the reason why the west side… Mr. Judd: Kind of lost out as far as keeping with…wasn’t a quality hill but it was quality people though. Some, lot of them at that time, lived over there but moved over… �11 Interviewer: Why did, why did these German families that were doing well in the machinery work, for example, why did they continue to live on the west side? Mr. Judd: Well, they did. Although later they moved over here but they…it was near their factories and those days you didn’t have an automobile, you know. You walked to work and… Interviewer: Well, when you came to school on the east side, was there any kind of social discrimination against… Mr. Judd: No, it was alright. There wasn’t anything of the sort. In fact, all the kids from Union came over here to finish up their last two years. And it wasn’t long that way but when they got that in then they built a larger school and… or built for more kids anyway. And then, also, they increased Union’s so you could stay there and graduate from Union. The building you see there now was being built when I moved over on the east side. I mean, the large red brick building, of course, now today it’s way out on the hill I guess, isn’t it? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Judd: …on the west side. Interviewer: When you moved to the east side, was that after you were married? Mr. Judd: Oh no, it was when I was just came to the tenth, eleventh grade over here… my family moved over at the same time and we lived down on Waverly Place. The house is gone now but the Waverly Place is a little street one block up from Jefferson Avenue off State Street. It just runs one block. It’s an awful dump down in there now. But at that time, the White family-you know how Washington Street comes down to Jefferson and State comes in and makes a point there-at that time, the White Family had a very beautiful home of their own in that triangle. They hadn’t moved up on Quality Hill yet but they were very wealthy people. Interviewer: Why… Mr. Judd: That’s why I knew some of the boys because we were living on Waverly and the White family were all brought up on that triangle down there not up on top of the hill where I told you that house is now. That’s kind of an English-type house. Interviewer: Well, I guess Jefferson Avenue at one time was a very fashionable… Mr. Judd: Well, it had beautiful trees and, oh yes, it was very fashionable and also Sheldon Street was, too. I’m talking about… (I’ve got a husky voice here, sorry)… up to nineteen ten, that Fulton Street across from the park was very nice before they built the Metz Building and the…what’s the name of the building, the Lorraine Building on the corner of LaGrave. Where Jacobson’s is now, was a beautiful stone house with brass railings and polished up and the man that lived there was a lawyer and looked like Charles Evans Hughes and his-what was his name … can’t think of it but, anyway, he-man of great dignity and he represented one of the railroads �12 that were in here then. Then he represented a trolley line, too. I foreclosed the trolley line. We wound it up when, about nineteen thirty-three or four…when they went off the streets. The trolley business was a fine business for a long time. Also in Grand Rapids makes me think this… the utility business started to develop about the turn of the century… I mean, the gas light and electric business and so forth. We had quite a number of entrepreneurs in Grand Rapids who started utility companies and did very well internationally and the Hodenpyl-Hardy people were in the Michigan Trust as officers under Mr. Withey. And power companies started here and there were three groups that did very well. There was this… these two boys from the Michigan Trustthe names were Hodenpyland Hardy-and they started and collected or started little gas companies around the small towns and they got it growing into Consumers Power and then they built the trolley lines ‘cause they generating power they could power dams. At that time, we had a lot of water and the streams, you see, and the rivers- it’s all they had. They were generating electric power again with these canals. And so they had more power than they could sell so they started these inter-urbans, too, electric inter-urbans. I don’t know whether you remember those but that was the inter-urban line from Grand Rapids to Muskegon, Grand Haven, and an electric train and they ran to Kalamazoo and all around. They started in the early nineteen hundreds and they were financed with twenty year bonds and I was not practicing law when those bonds were gotten out but had something to do with foreclosures, though, when the bonds came due. Why they… the automobiles had licked the inter-urban so that they went out business. And the bonds had… we had to foreclose them and, in other words, that industry or the inter-urbans between cities and electric cars that ran just about lasted as long as the twenty year bonds and that was all. And then when they went out of business. The Holland inter-urban, I foreclosed on that, sold all the assets, sold the rails to Broady. I don’t know whether you ever heard of Broady but he was a junk dealer, a very wealthy junk…his son and all of ‘em lived over on the east, moved over on the east side when they got some money. And… but these, these men that built up Consumers Power and they went down to New York and lived there. They’re not living now but they went down there because that was a source of the money to finance and build these things. Consumers Power was one, then there was a fellow here named…a Hollander here named [John A.] Hulswit who did the same thing. He had a traction lines and electric light companies in…out in Iowa and around in Ohio and built up a big picture and, of course, he moved to New York to finance it, too. But many of them started here and then, of course, Joe Brewer-I don’t know whether you’ve heard of him but he’s more recent. He built up a picture and companies he started with a little one, the Holland Gas Company, down here and collected, well, his best one was the Indianapolis Light and Power which is one of the fine utilities today and then he sold it all to Insull in the twenties when Samuel Insull was mopping up the universe buying all the utility companies and blew up higher than a kite in twenty-nine. But, I just saying about the history of Grand Rapids, we had people who got into new industries, developed here and elsewhere. That’s… it’s kind of unusual that a town this size would have people who built up such large companies from practically nothing in a new industry, you see. Interviewer: Do you feel that… that time has been and still is somewhat of a characteristic of Grand Rapids? Mr. Judd: There isn’t today anybody that seceded it to those people. No, because there those pictures were big enough so that their main offices were not in Grand Rapids any longer. They moved away, they moved Consumers Power down to Jackson because it was more central. It �13 was on the… then as important as the railroad line too, see we were kind of a branch off from Jackson, so there, that’s their headquarters but we’ve had people that have really built up businesses and constructive people, I think. This has been a very good town. Probably taking a hell of a lot of your time but I … Interviewer: No, that’s alright. Mr. Judd: I could dig up a lot of stuff if you wanted to. Interviewer: Oh. I have one last question for you. What do you think that…what, when you were growing up in Grand Rapids-the way the pace of life and style of life was then compared to today- what was it that changed everything? What was it that ended that era, so to speak, and brought on the era that we’re into today? Mr. Judd: Oh, well, you mean talking about the economics? Man: Yes Mr. Judd: Or the social… Interviewer: Well, the economics certainly have a lot to do with the social, I think. Mr. Judd: Of course, what’s been a great contributor, I think, is the automobile. Because when I was in high school, I’ll say, Henry Ford starting out with a low priced car. You could buy a car for around five hundred dollars. His first cars and, of course, he got this idea of having one model and nothing else in a straight line production and interchangeable parts and that sort of thing. And the early cars were custom made really...the Pierce Arrows and the great big ones around and he made it-made cars that were within the reach of really poor people .And then they got on the road and that, of course, the demand for roads and the automobile industry is, I think, practically runs the country today. It even cuts up your cities like we’re getting Plymouth Road cut up pretty soon, I’m afraid. It’s change, it’s changed the life. Of course, it’s changed the pace because people, you see, when I was a boy had horses and carriages to get around. Everybody didn’t have those but that was what they had on Quality Hill up and around and …the grocery men had it and your father had ‘em. Was he your grandfather? Interviewer: My grandfather? Mr. Judd: Grandfather, yes. I remember he was chief competition, I think, over there with a German named [Jacob] Rauschenberger. Did you ever hear of him? On Turner Street, but the pace was slow and you didn’t have the sense of urgency you’ve got today. And it was very nice and … but on the other hand, there’s a lot of good things brought with what we’ve got now, too. Sorry I have this cold, I… Interviewer: That’s alright, I think we can end right there anyway. �14 L B Blodgett Family · 3 Booth, Mr. · 9 Leonard, Mr. (Grandfather-in-law) · 8 R C Reconstruction Finance Corporation · 7 Consumers Power · 12, 13 S F Shelby, Mr. · 9 Friant Family · 4 V G Voigt Milling Company · 5 Gunn Furniture Company · 9 W K White Family · 3, 4 Widdicombe Family · 9 Withey, Mr. · 12 Worden Grocery Company · 8 Wright, Addison J. (Father) · 1, 2, 4, 9 Keeler Brass Company · 6 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/23a8cf6901908a91eae8bfc4fad527ff.mp3 ef6fcb382a950649cd37ddcd660c0910 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_20-21Judd Title A name given to the resource Judd, Siegel Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Judd, Siegel Description An account of the resource Siegel Judd was born Siegel Wright; after his parents died, his father's sister and her husband adopted him. Mr. Judd attended Dartmouth College and served in the navy during WWI. He married Dorothy Leonard in 1898. He went to law school, specializing in corporate law, and was involved in the lumber business. He died in 1982. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ff324ff20bdecd158c6524e9e6dd6cd.pdf de88fc3eefc4d3aa6de2a21f05fde250 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. Charles MacLear Kindel Interviewed on March 13, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #49 (52:27) Biographical Information Charles MacLear Kindel, known as “Chuck” was born in Denver City, Colorado on 29 March 1899, the son of Charles J. Kindel and Jessie M. MacLear. He died in Grand Rapids on 10 September 1982. It was on 8 November 1924 that he married Katrina C. van Asmus probably in Illinois. The father, Charles Joseph Kindel was born in Cincinnati, Ohio on 13 June 1872. He was the son of Gabriel Kindl and Marianna Herkommer. Charles J. married Jessie Matilda MacLear on 8 June 1898 in Denver City. Jessie, born in St. Catherine’s, Ontario on 27 August 1876, was the daughter of Thomas MacLear and Mary E. Reynolds. The father, Charles died in Grand Rapids on 28 July 1962, and Jessie died on 19 July 1956 in East Grand Rapids. ___________ Interviewer: I’m at the residence of Mr. Charles Kindel, 1900 San Lu Rae; it’s Thursday, March 13th, 1975. Mr. Kindel, recently in the local newspaper I read that you had gone to Washington and that many years ago you were President Ford’s Scoutmaster, and you started to tell me about coming here and that you’d been in scouting before. Kindel: We came to Grand Rapids in nineteen thirteen from Wilmette, Illinois and I was a scout over there when I became twelve. And when we came to Grand Rapids I was a First Class Scout. Scouting was just starting in Grand Rapids, and I joined Troop One at Sigsbee School and worked at the boys scout camps in the summer time and I became the first Eagle Scout in Grand Rapids. Then after I returned from England, where I was production manager in an English furniture factory I got married, and had a boy on the way and I felt that I should return some of the service that adults had given me. As you know an adult gives a lot of service to the scout movement. So I became the Scoutmaster at Troop Fifteen which was at the Trinity Methodist Church on Lake Drive. And Jerry Ford, who was called Junior Ford at the time, joined the troop, and naturally he seemed to have the ability to make friends and was of course, very athletic, [and] very well liked. Interviewer: What year was that? Kindel: That was in the year of nineteen twenty-five. I had the troop for one year, and then they made me commissioner of the district of scouting which comprised of eight troops which I kind of oversaw with the help of the troop committees and the various troops. And as you can imagine �2 a troop is only as good as its scout master, and a good troop committee gets a good Scoutmaster. So my brother then took the troop over for a year. Jerry became an Eagle Scout in nineteen twenty-seven, and luckily he was appointed by Governor Green to be one of the Eagle Scouts to act as a color guard at Mackinac Island. Interviewer: How old was he about then? Kindel: And he must have been fifteen or sixteen. Then when the Boy Scout national headquarters looked up Jerry Ford’s records they found that I was his first Scoutmaster and they felt that for the annual meeting of scouting in Washington where they were holding a oratorical contest from boys all over the United States, which was sponsored by the Reader’s Digest, they had semifinals in Washington the night before I got there, and there were just the two boys left in each category that the C Scouts the Boy Scouts and the Explorer Scouts. Well then, I was flattered because I was introduced as the President’s Scoutmaster by everybody in Washington that I met connected with the Boy Scout movement. The next day I was told to meet the head that was handling the expedition to the White House to be at the front door of the hotel at eleven o’clock. And as we boarded the bus; the boys were all in the bus, about twelve - fourteen Eagle Scouts the man who was handling this as I entered the bus he said to the boys, “This was the President’s Scoutmaster.” Well they gave me a big hand as you can imagine, some of these scouts came to me and said “I just want to shake the hand of the Presidents Scoutmaster,” which I got a kick out of naturally. Then we went to the White House. Interviewer: When was this exactly? Kindel: That was on Tuesday the twenty-fifth, of February. Interviewer: February. Kindel: And, we went to the White House and were ushered into the Teddy Roosevelt room in which I’d never been in. It had a big picture of Teddy Roosevelt and his Charger, the Rough Rider. It was a lovely conference room with lovely furniture of course. Then we went in to see the President and the minute I walked in, because I headed the procession more or less, Jerry spoke right up and said, “Well there’s Chuck Kindel,” and we shook hands. The boys were welltrained, cause they went up to the president and said, “Mr. President, it’s nice to see you, my name is so and so from Houston, Texas” or wherever they came from. Jerry was just himself, he, no pomp and ceremony. We presented him with the collage, which was a painting that was done by an artist in New Jersey, depicting some of the activities that Jerry took part in as a scout. And then as we, he of course was very nice and responded and remembered some of the boys that were in the troop with him, as a matter of fact he mentioned two of the boys, Engle B and Engle A were twins, who were both admirals in the Coast Guard. �3 Interviewer: What were the last names? Kindel: Engle, E-N-G-L-E. I lost track of those boys, but they tell that Engle, one of the Engles is head of the Coast Guard now and the other one’s retired. Interviewer: I wonder if they’re any relation to Engle Whinery. Kindel: No relation to Engle Whinery that I could find. I tried to find out more about the family, the Engles. I did talk to several of the boys that were in the troop with us. Most of them had done pretty well, Jerry reminded me of these different boys and I was amazed that he remembered their names, because I was thinking back at some of the boys who were in my troop early, and I don’t remember many of those names, that’s so long ago; you want to remember this was fifty years ago. Interviewer: Can you remember some of the people some of the boys that were in Jerry’s troop? Kindel: Oh yes, there was Richard Cassidy; his father had a drugstore on Lake Drive and Robinson Road. And then there was Ed Perch who was a tool maker. Well I looked up quite a few of Wiersmas; there were three Wiersma brothers that were in the troop the same time. And of course a Behler, Gerald Behler, he was the chairman of the troop committee, the BehlerYoung company, and his boy was in the troop, too. He’s out in Colorado now I found out. Some of the boys are scattered around the United States. But, Jerry seemed to remember that really amazed me to see that he would remember so much of it. He talked about it to the other boys, who were there how we handled scouting in those days. And of course, the troop committee is the most important part. The church has done a wonderful job in getting good troop committees. It’s the men’s club activities for the Trinity Church and Roger Chaffee who was the Astronaut that died in the accident at the in the missile, was an Eagle Scout from the same troop. At the conclusion of the presentation, we all filed out. I happened to be at the tail end of it, because I had been the first one in. As we were going out, Jerry said, “Chuck wait just a minute, stay here will you,” so we were alone in the oval room together and he asked about our family, because he’s a friend of Ted and Nancy’s out in Vail, and I told him how much Ted’s kids appreciated the gold brackets that he gave them for Christmas. Then he pulled out of his pocket a pen with the Presidential seal on it and he said, “I’d like to have you give this to Katrina.” And then out of another pocket he brought out another box, and in it was a pair of cuff links with the Presidential seal on it for me, which of course I’ll appreciate. Then we said goodbye, we got back into the bus, went back to the big luncheon that was being held at this oratorical contest. And although I don’t like publicity, and being the front, I was a presented as being the President’s Scoutmaster which of course, pleased me but it was quite a crowd there. I had a lot of people come up to me and ask me if I would just shake their hand because I was the President’s Scoutmaster. Interviewer: Let’s go back to the beginning of your life, and ask some questions about where you were born, and sort of vital statistics, of that sort if I could. And then why don’t you take this up �4 to as far as you’re coming to Grand Rapids, and tell us about your father and the first furniture business he had here. Go back and start from the beginning. Kindel: I was born in Denver Colorado, because my father had a bedding and upholstery business in Denver. But in, he took the attitude that Denver would never be anything but a health resort. And so he decided when the World’s Fair was in, to be in 1904 in St. Louis, he sold his business and moved to St. Louis because he felt that the incoming people to see the World’s Fair would be good for the bedding and upholstery business. So while he was in St. Louis he invented the sofa bed, which incidentally all the sofa beds made today are on his original patents which he held, but of course they run out many years ago. We stayed in St. Louis, then that business grew, the sofa bed business and we went to New York, and he established a factory in New York City. We stayed in New York about two years. Then we went up and built a plant in Toronto, Canada for the Canadian Trade; which incidentally, was the most profitable of all of them from the dollars and cents stand point. Then we moved to Chicago, because he had to build another factory in Chicago for the Middle-West trade. Interviewer: What year would that have been? Kindel: That was in nineteen hundred and ten. Then the business was expanding so fast, and they were putting wood ends or arms on the sofa beds at that time, and he came to Grand Rapids because of the woodworkers in Grand Rapids. As you know Grand Rapids then was probably the best known for the woodworkers than any place in the country. He had many offers to go to other cities, but Grand Rapids seemed to be the most desirable from the woodworkers standpoint. But yet the city of Grand Rapids at that time didn’t want him to come to Grand Rapids. They were trying to keep industry out of Grand Rapids it seemed. And he bought the lot on, between Division and Jefferson on Garden Street. And the city did not cooperate in any way with him; as a matter of fact, there were three streets projected in the plot, they even charged my father for that land when the street were closed up cause they dead ended into railroad tracks. Then he had to have a water main come up from Division Street for high pressure sprinkler protection, and they did not do that, he had to pay for that. Interviewer: Why didn’t they want him to come, what was the reason? Kindel: Well, there was quite a clique in the woodworking games at that time, there were a great many furniture factories of course. And they, back there as I understand it they just didn’t want any industry to come into Grand Rapids because they were jealous of the establishment that they had made. As you know, in nineteen eleven they had a rather severe woodworker’s strike which was difficult to break, and they were afraid that industry coming in here. My father came in spite of that; and in nineteen hundred and fifteen, because Kroehler, the noted upholsterer, was building a sofa bed and infringing on my father’s patents. And although Peter Kroehler was friend of my father’s because my father had been president of the Upholsterers Association, and he told, as he said, told us he said to Pete Kroehler. One day he said, “Pete you and I are going to �5 go to the mat because you know that you’re infringing my patents and as soon as I get straightened around we’re going to take and have a suit.” And Pete Kroehler said, “No we’re not going to have a suit Charlie, I’ll buy you out.” And my father said, “Pete you can’t afford to buy me out,” and Pete Kroehler said, “Well, you name a price.” My father named a price and that was the final sale. So my father sold out and retired at the age of forty-two. And for ten years he agreed to stay out of the bed business. Interviewer: Was he in any other form of furniture business? Kindel: No, he couldn’t go into any furniture business for ten years. Interviewer: When did he resume? Kindel: Then in nine years and nine months the Foote-Reynolds company was available because… Interviewer: When was that? Kindel: In nineteen hundred and twenty four. On January tenth, nineteen twenty-four, Seal Reynolds, who was running the Foote-Reynolds plant died. Mrs. Reynolds was trying to carry on with the business, but she had enormous losses. And when I came back from England then I was to go to work for Kroehler in California, but Mrs. Reynolds wanted to sell the plant. My father [brought in] fact both my brother and myself in the business. Then we bought the original plant that he’d had built here in nineteen thirteen. Interviewer: Did that Foote-Reynolds business have any direct relationship with Mr. Stuart Foote? Kindel: Yes. Stuart Foote of course was a brother in law; and Clare Dexter was a brother-in-law. And Clare Dexter and Foote and Reynolds they bought this factory, and they made four poster beds. Interviewer: But they were also in the business? Besides Mr. Reynolds. Kindel: Well, they financially they were. Stuart Foote you know had the Imperial Furniture Company and then he backed his son Vernon Foote in what they called the Stuart Furniture Company, which is now the Oliver Machinery Company plant on the west side. Interviewer: What was Mr. Dexter’s business? Kindel: He was the President of the Grand Rapids Chair Company, and that was the original Foote family business, the Grand Rapids Chair Company. Then Stuart Foote broke away from that and built the Imperial Furniture Company, to make tables. And of course, it was much more successful than the Grand Rapids Chair Company. �6 Interviewer: Now let’s go back, to where your father started up here in about nineteen twentyfour. What kind of furniture did he manufacture? Kindel: Well we went on making the four poster beds for some time and then we made a convertible day bed. But before, I must go back here Lee, my father’s contract with Kroehler was that he would stay out of business for ten years, and we bought this plant in nine years and nine months. My father called Pete Kroehler and told him what he was doing and that he wouldn’t buy the plant for us if he would violate that agreement. Pete Kroehler said, “Go ahead Charlie, buy it,” that’s the way it worked. And we went on and made day beds that would convert from a day bed to a double day bed. And then in nineteen twenty-nine, we started to make our own case goods, that is the dressers, the chests to go with our four poster beds, and then we expanded into making just bedroom suites. Interviewer: Now the term case goods is, of course, a well known furniture term, but for people who don’t know anything about furniture, can you give us an approximate, a good idea of what that term means? Kindel: Case goods means, a piece of furniture with drawers in it. Interviewer: I see. Kindel: Sometimes we take with liquor cases. Interviewer: Was that included, the bed set, the complete bedroom suite? Kindel: The complete bedroom suite, with night stands, a chiffoniers, chests, dressers, and even the long cheval mirrors. Well then about nineteen fifty, we went into making… we added to our line and made dining room furniture; and we made mahogany exclusively, till about nineteen fifty-five when we felt that the mahogany craze was to be substituted by using lighter furniture like, so we in to make cherry. So we made cherry exclusively up until nineteen sixty-six when we sold the business to the Ball brothers of Muncie, Indiana. Of course, my father died in sixtythree and he was never really active in the management of the business. He always told us, my brother and I, “make your mistakes while I’m living, don’t make them after I’m gone.” Which was, he let us have all the rope we wanted; it was a great association. Interviewer: He lived to a rather advanced age. Kindel: He was ninety-one. Interviewer: Where was he born? Kindel: He was born in Cincinnati, Ohio, of German parentage. Interviewer: You mean Kindel is a German name. �7 Kindel: It’s a German name, unusual spelling because the immigration officer made the mistake when he came into this country at Ellis Island; he spelled the name Kindel, where the original German was Kindl. That’s the same name, so there are very few Kindel’s in this country, that you’d run across. Interviewer: Well now, Mr. Kindel I’m not quite old enough to remember the Depression too well but I am certainly aware of the, that the Kindel Furniture Company continued to manufacture furniture at least during most of that period, and right up until its sale and even thereafter, and apparently was very well established firm and didn’t seem to encounter all the troubles that some of our, many of our furniture companies did and certainly didn’t go out of business as some of them did. To what do you attribute this success of Kindel Furniture Company? Kindel: Well, we were a profitable business and when the Depression came along, luckily we were always trained to take and put anything away that you possibly can. So we started in the Depression with a pretty well capitalized business, because we had been always told that more businesses fail for lack of capital than anything else, and so we did everything to preserve our capital. And another thing, we were told never to let a bill go by, always get the discount, which we did. And so when the depression came along we really modernized; we replaced a great deal of our machinery. Of course I was the factory man, and my brother was the sales end of the business. And we practically replaced a great deal of the machinery for higher speed ball-bearing equipment, and we took business just to keep going. Luckily we had enough capital that we could afford to do it. I don’t think any furniture factory worked more consistently, as we did, we never worked less than four days a week, and we never had a lay-off. So, that we kept pretty good industrial relations with our help. And we were never unionized, because our boys claimed they were getting benefits that the union shops weren’t even getting; so that we had very good industrial relations, as a matter of fact. I just had a girl call me last night that worked for us for twenty-five years; she’s up in, living in a small town in the north up near Cadillac. She just called me to see how I was. And she say, “You know Chuck, we never had a layoff in all the twenty-five years I worked for you, and you were probably the best boss a guy could have.” Well it made me feel good, naturally. We still have an association with…, I see a great many of our men who worked for us for so many years. Interviewer: How many people did your company employ? Kindel: Well during the war, when we were building aircrafts we got up to three hundred and sixty employees, but I’ll say we averaged around two hundred employees as a rule. Interviewer: Now when I was here interviewing Mrs. Kindel two or three weeks ago, time goes so fast, you started that week to talk a little bit about your role during World War Two, and some of the things you did at time. Why don’t you talk about those things right now? �8 Kindel: Well when World War Two came along; it appeared that there would be very little for the furniture companies to do, because it was so different than any other war, material that was being purchased. We came on the idea that we could build parts for aircraft made of wood. I was president of the local Grand Rapids Furniture Manufacturer’s Association at the time, and we called a meeting of the members of the association and we formed a corporation of fifteen of the leading furniture factories. We all put in ten thousand dollars apiece, and with that capital we went scrounging around for business. And luckily when I was at the University of Michigan, in engineering school, I had taken a couple of courses in Aeronautics because it was a hobby with me. That more or less gave me enough nerve to think I knew something about aircraft. As you know [with] an aircrafts you’re fighting weight all the time. And I went out to Fairchild [Aviation Corporation] in Hagerstown, Maryland, and also to Cessna Aircraft and Beech Aircraft in Wichita. Cessna Aircraft got an order for a thousand gliders. That was the CG-4A glider that would carry fifteen men and a howitzer or a jeep. It was a big job and I got an order for a thousand sets of wings. And we came back and started to go through all the blueprints, and you can imagine what it meant to go through a bunch of blueprints in the lot for various factories and the different parts to make. Some of the smaller plants, they made small parts. The Widdicomb Furniture Company, they made the spars, the front spar, which is a rather big chunk of wood. And then the Kindel plant made the rear spars. Then we made the ribs, which were all laminated with plywood and spruce. They, different parts were sent to different assembly plants and then the final assembly was at the Imperial Furniture Company, where these big wings, which were twenty-five… over all the width of the airplane, the width was eighty-five feet. But the longest wing section was twenty-five feet and then there was a shorter one which was about sixteen or seventeen feet long that went on to make the wings of this glider. We ended up making forty-five hundred sets of wings for the glider and we made them for eight of the prime contractors who were building these gliders. And Gibson [Manufacturing] of Greenville [Michigan] was one of these companies, Timm Aircraft of California, the Robertson Aircraft Company in St. Louis, General Aircraft down in the east part of Massachusetts, the Babcock Airplane Company down in Florida, we made their wings for them, and shipped them out of here in great big boxes. The Nicholson-Cox Lumber Company was a member of the firm; they built the… all they did was build boxes to hold these wings. And they were assembled and finished at the Imperial Furniture Company and then boxed there. Then we also had the order for the Stinson L-5 Liaison plane, which we made about four thousand of those, sets of wings for that. And we made every piece of the wood that went in the airplane, that was the emponze(?) of the tail services, even the map cases. We made map cases for the B-29’s; we made parts for the navy. [We] Even made ships wheels, steering wheels. We made numerous parts for other aircraft companies, like ribs, we made the spars for the Taylor Aircraft Company as well as Piper Aircraft. Anything with wood we were specialists in and we did an outstanding job, because our woodworkers were so good here. Then after, when the war ended we had to liquidate it and at that time we were in pretty good cash position, we discussed whether or not we should take and build a dimension plant, that would bring the lumber in and dry it, and cut into small pieces for the different factories, but �9 because we had a bunch of rugged individualists it seemed as though that wasn’t practical because they took the attitude well, you’ll do it for this but you won’t do it for me, and so that never matured so we liquidated it. Interviewer: How many manufacturers were involved in this operation? Kindel: Fifteen factories. Interviewer: There were fifteen factories. Because there were fifteen who put up ten thousand and they all stayed in it? Kindel: Fifteen factories, even little Willie May Burke Company was one of them. Interviewer: I see. Kindel: Bower Furniture Company, William-Kimp Furniture Company, there was both Widdicombes, Mueller Furniture Company, Valley City Desk Company, and of course Kindel had a part in it too. And I was in charge of all production for the plant because that’s the part I like in the furniture business. Interviewer: I was interested in your using the term rugged individualists, describe some of these people some these men in the firm industry at that time, now you had an association with the furniture industry in Grand Rapids for fifty years or there abouts. Who are some of the men you remember best over that period of years who were you might call them giants in this industry in Grand Rapids? Kindel: Well we didn’t have any real giants; Robert W. Irwin probably was one of the most rugged individuals of the lot, and Stuart Foote, of the Imperial Furniture Company and Clare Dexter of the Grand Rapids Chair Company. They were the rugged individualists I would say that wanted to go their own way, and were jealous of anything anybody else did. Interviewer: Now we all know that much of the furniture industry has left Grand Rapids, the companies have either gone out of business or they’ve moved out east, what do you think is the chief reason we have lost so much of total industry to other places? Kindel: Well Lee, I, liken the furniture business to the woolen industry of New England, and the weaver’s in New England, as you know they moved south because of the cheap labor. Grand Rapids I think lost a great deal of their business because the labor rates in the south were so much less, as a matter of fact over the years we used to make surveys and the furniture trades wages were probably forty percent less than the Grand Rapids wages. Grand Rapids of course is noted for its quality and I think that the only survival of the business in Grand Rapids would be only in quality furniture; because we, with our skilled help we can make quality, down in the south they can make quantity. But they just don’t put the quality in that made up here. So people �10 buy Grand Rapids furniture in the most part they are getting their money’s worth, for that’ll be the antique’s of the future. Interviewer: That’s a good way to sum it up. I thought we’d go back and talk about some of the early years when you first came to Grand Rapids; you just mentioned that you built your first car in nineteen twelve. Kindel: Well it was a one cylinder on a car with a twenty-four inch wheel tread and a seventytwo inch wheel base. I remember it so distinctly and my father bought me a second hand motorcycle engine for fifteen dollars and we built that into a car and I learned an awful lot building that car, and I still got the drawing on it. Because my father wouldn’t buy the engine until I made an inked in drawing, and he taught me very early to make a drawing before you start any project. And we moved to Grand Rapids and I still run into people who say they remember the car that I used to drive around here. A little one cylinder putter, but I had a lot of fun doing that I’ve always been a car nut over since. I’ve had all kinds of them and only wish I had some of the old ones now because they’d be classics. But I worked in the machine room, in the tool room as working on milling machines, and shapers and blades between summers because I just loved that kind of stuff. I graduated from Central High school, went on to engineering school in Ann Arbor, and took some automotive courses as well as aviation courses, because it’s my hobby; and then I learned to fly in nineteen hundred and twenty-seven. As a matter of fact I was the first one up to Lindbergh’s plane when he came in here on his tour of May nineteen twenty-seven, because I just a well I’ll admit I’m a screwball. I learned to fly and of course I had a plane, a nice little Stinson plane that I flew for about six years. They say you have to be a little bit crazy. My Father used to say, “It helps.” Interviewer: Where did your family live when you were younger? Kindel: Well we lived at twelve twenty-five Lake Drive which is now the Jonkhoff Funeral Home. Interviewer: That was quite a ways out. Kindel: Yes it was a long way to Central High School, but it didn’t bother me because being a car nut I had a car all the time, a model-T Ford, all the time I was in high school. I remember your mother in school whenever the piano had to be played she was it. Interviewer: Go back to that house the Jonkhoff Funeral Home. Your father built that? Kindel: No, that was built by Orin Starr, Starr was the name and he was as I understand it he was the one who built the Majestic theatre. Interviewer: How do you spell his last name? Kindel: I think it was Starr, if I remember right. �11 Interviewer: It was pronounced stair? Kindel: Stair, and then when we all went away to school my father and mother thought the house was too much of a care and they built this house at seven thirty Plymouth; it was the second house on the block. Interviewer: Who lives there today? Kindel: I don’t know that’s house, my father sold it after my mother’s death to the manager of the Detroit Ball-Bearing Company and then his father who was the organizer to the Detroit Ball, then his father dies and he moved to Detroit, and it was sold to somebody with the telephone company and I’m not sure of their last names either. My father used to say his house isn’t the best; it’s next to the best house, when he talked to Mr. Fitzgerald, who built the house on Plymouth and San Lu Rae. Interviewer: I remember when that house was built, because when the Fitzgeralds lived in the house where we live and they rented it from the Perkins for I don’t know how many months, I remember we moved in November of nineteen twenty-eight, and so by that time Mr. and Mrs. Fitzgerald must have finished that house. Kindel: Yes, Owen Ames Kimball built that house and they moved from my father’s house over to the Fitzgerald house. Owen Ames Kimball built also the Blodgett house. That was previous to my father’s house. Interviewer: I sort of recall my father bringing me out here as just a little boy to see that house under construction, so it must have been something to behold. Kindel: Well, it was beautifully constructed, it’s a beautiful home. So my father used to say I don’t have the best house, I live next to the best house. Interviewer: Where did you and Mrs. Kindel live when you were first married? Kindel: Well when we were first married we married in nineteen twenty-four, and we lived at three thirty-three Briarwood, which was called the brides street at that time, because Chuck Sligh built a house across from me, one of the Keeneys lived there, next door to us, and Clifford Nelson was down the block, and Chucky and Don Steketee also lived on that block. We had a very nice house, and we lived there until nineteen twenty-eight, when we moved over on Cambridge, at four thirty-one Cambridge. We lived there twenty-two years, and then we built this house in nineteen forty-eight. Interviewer: This is a beautiful house. Did you design this house? Kindel: I hate to say I designed it, I laid out the floor plans we wanted, and Ralph Demmon who did this type of architecture we felt the best, we looked over the different architects work. We felt he did this type of house best. I would have liked to have had it all stone but Ralph Demmon �12 talked us out that, he said it was too expensive, and those types of masons are gone. So we only had the front of the house in this Pennsylvania stone. We always like the Pennsylvania type of houses when we’d drive though Pennsylvania and said that’s what we want. And we laid out the house really what we wanted having Ralph Demmon do the real architecture work, because I do know a lot of drafting I’m no architect. Interviewer: Did you previously plan the woodwork? Kindel: Well a lot of this woodwork was made in our plant; all of the woodwork really was done in our plant, like the pine paneling that we have all of the casing moldings, they’re all special. Interviewer: Is there a good deal of Kindel furniture in this house? Kindel: Everything that we could get in that Kindel made is here. Although we have quite a bit of Baker and the rest of the furniture is really Baker. I’ve always said this in my estimation, maybe I’m wrong but Hollis Baker probably was the greatest furniture man in our first half century. He was a real connoisseur. Interviewer: He knew a great deal about furniture and I think he could sell it too. Kindel: Oh, he was a marvelous salesman. But he could take he was discriminating, he knew what was nice. For instance, that octagon table there, you know there’s one out at the club like that and there’s a table over there which House Beautiful said was one of the real classics, that little table right there. Interviewer: That’s a beautiful table. He was a very interesting man; he’s one of the most interesting people I ever knew. Kindel: Well he, we enjoyed him very much and as you know the Huntings, the Bakers and Kindels all bought the Exhibitors Building. Interviewer: That’s right. Why don’t you tell us about that, I’d forgotten that? Kindel: As you know that was the original Fine Arts Building built by Gus Hendricks. And during the war, he had financial troubles, and the city took it over. Then during the war the weather school took that building over for training meteorologists. And the building was in pretty bad disrepair in nineteen forty-five or six, and we got together and bought it from the city, the three of us. And we reconditioned it and we put a hundred and ten thousand dollars in before anybody moved in to it. [End of Side 1] Interviewer: We’re talking about the, what we call the Fine Arts Building across from the Civic Auditorium, and you’ve come to the point where you’d purchased it, and what year was that? �13 Kindel: The latter part of nineteen forty-five we bought the building from the city, because it reverted to them for taxes. And we had Ken Welch do a great deal of the architectural changes that we made in the building and of course, because of its being in despair there was a great deal of plastering to be done, and remodeling the building. And luckily, we were all in the furniture business, we had three spaces rented immediately, because Dave Hunting moved the Steelcase line into the Exhibitor’s Building, and Baker Furniture Company took the second floor, and Kindel Furniture took half of the third floor, and Widdicombe took the back half of the third floor. We brought in come outside exhibitors and it was a success from the start. The furniture market faded out, and Baker Furniture used it as a show room so did John Widdicomb Company, and several other furniture people that used it more as a place where a decorator could take his customers or clients as they call them, and to select furniture. Knapp and Tubbs took over part of the building and then we rented a half of a floor to Aves Advertising Company, another half to the Court of Appeals, which was awaiting the building of the State Building. And of course we had to put in a lot of air conditioning. And we went along very well until Hollis Baker sold the Baker Furniture Company – [I’m] talking about Hollis junior. He decided that some of his wealth should be put in to real estate, and he bought the Kindels and Huntings out. So it’s now wholly owned by Hollis Baker. Interviewer: I want to go back into Grand Rapids furniture history for a minute because I’m sure you could shed some light on some of the famous names of furniture. I’m not talking about individuals as much as I am about companies at this point. Of course one of the names that constantly comes up when you’re talking to people about furniture is Berkey and Gay. Now that company I believe is no longer in existence, but you must remember when it was. And could you tell us about the company and what sort of happened to it? Kindel: Well that’s an interesting saga of course. When I came out of the university my first job in the furniture business, because my father had retired, was at Berkey and Gay Furniture Company, and as you know they had five plants. And if I remember they had about twenty-four hundred employees. It was a big company, of course Bill Gay had died, and the plant was taken over by the three Wallace brothers. They were all salesman, none of them were mechanics. Interviewer: So that was Oliver Wallace and Edward Wallace…? Kindel: No, that was, in the same family, but Ed Wallace and Oliver Wallace were still in school It’s a generation back. And these Wallace brothers were typically fine furniture salesman, but knew nothing of manufacturing. And they got into financial troubles in the early thirties and then the business was auctioned, most of the equipment was auctioned off, and then Frank McKay, he got interested in it and started it up again. That didn’t succeed, and there was another auction. And me being a factory man, I went to all the auctions and did buy some equipment, but I’ve always thought an auction to me was like going to the circus. I loved it. Of course the Luce Furniture Company was very successful before the Depression. That was run by Martin Dregge, and Hamp Holt. Hamp Holt was a good manufacturer. Dregge was a good salesman. They �14 absorbed the Furniture Shops, which had previously been the John D. Raab Chair Company. And they were quite successful and they also took the Michigan Chair Company which was a successful upholstery company. Interviewer: Who owned that company? Kindel: That was owned by Luce Furniture Company, and I’ve forgotten the name of the man that owned the Michigan Chair Company at the time. Then of course, the Sligh Furniture Company, they employed about eight hundred employees at one time. Interviewer: Really? That many? Kindel: They were a good size operation, and very famous of course for their bedroom furniture. I don’t think they made dining room furniture, but they were a big outfit. Interviewer: Eventually Mr. Chuck Sligh went to Holland and went into business will Bill Lowry, but what happened to the Sligh Furniture Company? Kindel: The Sligh Furniture Company was being run by Norman McClave, and somehow or other he and Chuck didn’t get along too well. Chuck Sligh went down to Holland with Bill Lowry, who is a one of the top production men and an engineer, and they started the Sligh Furniture Company in Holland. Guess they called it the Sligh-Lowry Company, and they’ve been very successful. Chuck Sligh of course is a fine salesman, and I admire him very much. Interviewer: As I recall it they made some really beautiful desks? Kindel: No, they weren’t beautiful desks. I don’t agree with you on that, they were production desks. Interviewer: Production desks. Kindel: And not the kind you’d see in the White House. Interviewer: Did you see any Grand Rapids Furniture in the White House? Kindel: I don’t know, there are some beautiful breakfronts down there, but I think most of those pieces are antiques. Interviewer: I guess they have the Sousaski[?] rugs? Kindel: Well I didn’t notice the rugs; I was looking more at the furniture, because your furniture is in your blood. Interviewer: Resuming our discussion of present furniture factories that are in existence in Grand Rapids, we started to mention a few of them and I suggested you talk about some of those. �15 Kindel: Well we still have the John Widdicomb Company, and they make very fine furniture. The Master-Craft Furniture make occasional pieces. Interviewer: And they’re the company still owned by the family? Kindel: And that’s still owned by the family. The John Widdicomb Company is owned by Hickory Furniture Company, Hickory, North Carolina. The Johnson Furniture Company who are famous for making quality furniture is owned by Holiday Inns now. The Hekman Furniture Company, which started in about nineteen twenty-three or four is owned by Beatrice Foods. The Imperial Furniture Company is owned by Chicago Musical Instruments Company. The Kindel Furniture Company is owned by Ball Brothers of Muncie, Indiana that make mason jars, part of their conglomerate. I understand Colonial Clock Company from Zeeland who have a plant in the old Berkey and Gay, Plant One has been sold recently to somebody else and I don’t know who bought it. That’s been sold but, there are very few family businesses left and the only one that I can think of that really amount to very much is Mastercraft and Ralph Morse Furniture Company is owned by Jim Alexander, and he also owns Fine-Arts Furniture, which makes very nice occasional pieces. Interviewer: These companies are relatively small I would assume. Kindel: Well, there are no big plants, no big companies in Grand Rapids left now, I don’t think there’s any plant that employs more than three hundred people. Interviewer: What would that be? Kindel: That might be Imperial Furniture Company who are making organ cases and jukebox cases, and some television cabinets. I guess the next or second one would be John Widdicombe; they probably employ two hundred and twenty-five or so. I don’t know how many Kindel has now, but KindelError! Bookmark not defined., we bought the Valley City Furniture Company plant at auction for our chair operation and that is still being operated by the Ball Brothers as Kindel Plant Number Two. They make dining room chairs and also they are making a line of occasional tables which are very nice. Then they rented a part of the Allen Calculator Company and that is their upholstery division. They’re making upholstered furniture. Interviewer: Well let’s leave the topic of furniture for a minute and, you mentioned a while back when we were talking with the machine off that you had collected barometers and stored some of them and put them in good working order. How did you happen to get interested in that? Kindel: Well barometers have been a hobby of mine for the last 25 years. I bought the first one in Canada, in Toronto at an antique shop; it wasn’t working and I made it work. And then I picked up a couple more and on a trip in nineteen forty-nine to England, I brought ten of them back in the trunk of my car, and the customs officer said to me, “What are you going to do with all that junk?” Well that’s part of my hobby and I fixed them all up, restored them and made them work; �16 then I’ve had some shipped in from England since. And everybody in town thinks if their barometer’s not working they can call Chuck Kindel. I had a call one day from a woman friend of ours here, I didn’t know her but I knew him and she said she bought a barometer in Chicago and the porter had tipped it over on the train coming back and broke the mercury tube and she said if my husband knows how much I paid for that and then broke the tube he’d shoot me. So I immediately fixed her barometer for her that same day, and when he came back from his fishing trip he saw the barometer and never knew that it had been busted. Then Marshall-Fields when they would sell an antique barometer in this territory they would expect me to service it for them. I got a call one a day from the head of Marshall-Fields antique department, and said that they had a customer that had bought a barometer and wouldn’t pay for it because he said it wasn’t working. And they gave me the name and so on my way home from work that night I stopped and it happened to be Bennett Ainsworth’s wife Emily who I had been in school with, Emily Hine, and I said I’m from Marshall Fields, she said, “Chuck Kindel what are you doing working for Marshal Fields?” Well I said, “I service the barometers.” I took it and fixed it for them. Interviewer: Did they ever pay you for this service? Kindel: No it was part of the courtesy when you do business with Marshall-Fields, you do those things. Interviewer: You were doing business with Marshall-Fields? Kindel: Yes, Marshall-Fields were very good customers of ours. Interviewer: How much volume did you business do? Kindel: I believe at the time about four million, four and a half million dollars a year. Interviewer: That’s respectable. Kindel: Yes, if you can make it profitable. Interviewer: Well I think that this has been a delightful afternoon and I have enjoyed talking to you. Kindel: Why don’t we have a drink? Interviewer: That sounds like a good idea why don’t we shut her off. �17 INDEX A Ainsworth, Bennett · 18 Ainsworth, Emily · 18 Allen Calculator Company · 17 Aves Advertising Company · 14 Fitzgerald, Mrs. · 12 Foote, Stuart · 6, 10 Foote, Vernon · 6 Foote-Reynolds Company · 5, 6 Ford, Jerry · 1, 2, 3 Ford, President · 1 Frank McKay · 15 Furniture Manufacturer’s Association · 8 Furniture Shops · 15 B Baker Furniture Company · 14 Baker, Hollis · 13, 14 Ball Brothers · 16, 17 Behler, Gerald · 3 Behler-Young company · 3 Berkey and Gay Furniture Company · 14, 16 Blodgett house · 12 Bower Furniture Company · 10 C Cassidy, Richard · 3 Central High School · 11 Chaffee, Roger · 3 Chicago Musical Instruments Company · 16 Civic Auditorium · 14 D Demmon, Ralph · 13 Depression · 7, 15 Detroit Ball-Bearing Company · 12 Dexter, Clare · 6 Dregge, Martin · 15 G Gay, Bill · 15 Gibson Manufacturing · 9 Grand Rapids Chair Company · 6, 10 H Hekman Furniture Company · 16 Hendricks, Gus · 13 Herkommer, Marianna · 1 Hickory Furniture Company · 16 Holt, Hamp · 15 Hunting, Dave · 14 I Imperial Furniture Company · 6, 9, 10, 16, 17 Irwin, Robert W. · 10 J John D. Raab Chair Company · 15 John Widdicomb Company · 14, 16 Jonkhoff Funeral Home · 11 E Engle brothers · 3 Exhibitors Building · 13, 14 F Fine Arts Building · 13, 14 Fitzgerald, Mr. · 12 K Kindel Furniture Company · 7, 9, 10, 14, 16 Kindel, Charles J. · 1 Kindel, Charles M. · 1 Kindl, Gabriel · 1 Knapp and Tubbs · 14 Kroehler, Peter · 5, 6 �18 L Lowry, Bill · 15, 16 Luce Furniture Company · 15 Reynolds, Mrs. · 5 Reynolds, Seal · 5 Roosevelt, Teddy · 2 S M MacLear, Jessie M. · 1 MacLear, Thomas · 1 Marshall-Fields · 17, 18 Master-Craft Furniture · 16 McClave, Norman · 15 Michigan Chair Company · 15 Mueller Furniture Company · 10 Sligh Furniture Company · 15, 16 Sligh, Chuck · 12, 15, 16 Sligh-Lowry Company · 16 Starr, Orin · 11 Steketee, Chuck and Don · 12 Stuart Furniture Company · 6 T N Trinity Methodist Church · 1, 3 Nelson, Clifford · 12 Nicholson-Cox Lumber Company · 9 V O Valley City Desk Company · 10 Valley City Furniture Company · 17 van Asmus, Katrina C. · 1 Oliver Machinery Company · 6 Owen Ames Kimball · 12 P Perch, Ed · 3 R Reynolds, Mary E. · 1 Reynolds, Mr. · 6 W Wallace, Edward · 15 Wallace, Oliver · 15 Welch, Ken · 14 Widdicomb Furniture Company · 9 Wiersma brothers · 3 William-Kimp Furniture Company · 10 Willie May Burke Company · 10 World War Two · 8 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/413757ff7cc64b85bb815e3535674eed.mp3 a84d6c1084d1aef3ff4e72a4ade2de03 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_49Kindel Title A name given to the resource Kindel, Charles MacLear Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kindel, Charles MacLear Description An account of the resource Charles Kindel was born in Colorado in 1899. His father was in the furniture business. He married Katrina C. van Asmus in 1924 and eventually took her place as trustee of the Starr Commonwealth. He was President Ford's boy scout leader in the 1920s. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a513f0e0a21751c37e8c719d5ae082d3.pdf 4ce6a2ec41c82e5d996448f3eacdbf0f PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Charles Kindel Interviewed on February 10, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010- bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #48 (54:23) Biographical Information Mrs. Kindel was born Katrina Cup van Asmus on 13 August 1904 in Evanston, Illinois. She was the daughter of Edward Cup van Asmus and Helen Hurlbut Long. Katrina married Charles MacLear Kindel on 8 November 1924. Mrs. Kindel died in Grand Rapids on 1 April 1987. Mr. Kindel died in Grand Rapids on 10 September 1982. Edward Cup van Asmus and Helen Hurlbut Long were married in Grand Rapids on 16 September 1897. Edward was born 10 January 1871 in Grand Rapids, the son of Henry David Cup van Asmus and Marie Elizabeth Vanderfield. Edward died on 20 June 1941. Helen H. Long was born on 25 August 1872 in Grand Rapids, the daughter of George H. Long and Catherine Sheller. Helen died on 7 November 1951. For the Kindel family, see Mr. Charles Kindel’s Oral History transcription. ___________ Interviewer: Mrs. Kindel before we started I was able to take a quick look from a book called Illinois Lives which contains a biographical sketch of yourself and other natives of Illinois. I must say I was surprised that you were not born in Grand Rapids. Although before that you told me that your grandfather came here back in the middle of the nineteenth century. Why don’t you go back to that period and tell us about your grandfather if you can remember much about him or tell us about what brought him to this company and a little of that history. I can hold this for you or whatever you want. Mrs. Kindel: Both my grandfathers came here from other places the Dutch grandfather came here at the time, after the Civil War and married and settled down in Grand Rapids. And my other grandfather came from Pennsylvania. Lewistown Pennsylvania. He was in the lumber business in Michigan and he married here and lived here and had ten children here. And they lived here until adulthood; some of them went elsewhere. Some of them remained here. I don’t know too much about the two grandfathers. The one in the lumber business was very successful and the Dutch grandfather founded the Board of Trade. He was the first secretary of the Board of Trade and he was a very cultured man well educated and understood fine paintings and prints and horticulture all the lovely things. Interviewer: What was his name Mrs. Kindel? �2 Mrs. Kindel: His name was van Asmus. HDC Henry David Cup van Asmus. Interviewer: And the other grandfathers name? Mrs. Kindel: The other one was George B. Long. L O N G and they lived on Sheldon. Sheldon then was a lovely street with beautiful trees, and Victorian homes. Now it’s a CIO Headquarters. Interviewer: Is the house still standing? Mrs. Kindel: No the house came down when CIO went up. Interviewer: I guess that was quite a nice street the Caufields lived down there and many of the old people. Mrs. Kindel: Burnses and the Caufields, and the Sinclairs, Doctor Sinclair, and the Longs. Interviewer: You must be related to the Duffys then? Mrs. Kindel: Yes. Mrs. Duffy was one of the sisters, my mother’s sisters; and Mrs. Homiller and Mrs. McPherson. They were all sisters. Interviewer: That’s right. I used to here the Caulfield sisters talked about. Of course they lived down the street. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. They were a great family. Lots of fun. The Woodcocks lived on the corner across from the Caufields. There were two Woodcock boys. And then the Sinclairs; that was Jean Sinclair who became Mrs. Curtis Interviewer: Doctor Sinclair brought my mother into the world. Mrs. Kindel: Probably. Interviewer: I don’t remember it but I remember my mother talking about it. Mrs. Kindel: That’s interesting. Well then kitty-corner across was the Burnses you know. Interviewer: Tom Burns. Mrs. Kindel: Yes. I couldn’t think of his first name. Interviewer: I think that was his name. Mrs. Kindel: yeah. Interviewer: Well however were you born in Evanston? Mrs. Kindel: I was born in Evanston, Illinois and moved away from there when I was two years old, and lived in a number of different places. I was raised in New York really, about fourteen �3 years in New York City. And I lived in Denver, I lived in Kansas City, Missouri, moved around, until I was married I never lived in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Did you come here for visits? Mrs. Kindel: Came here to visit with aunts and grandparents and so forth. That’s when I met my husband. Interviewer: What went on when you came for visits? Mrs. Kindel: Oh boy. I just loved it because I lived in New York where we didn’t have a nice little social life and I thought it was great to come here where there were parties every morning noon and night and tea dances. Boy we put on Christmas seasons that would shame this generation, we had a good time and I loved it very much. I loved the young people. Well I just sort of feel like I belong to Grand Rapids, after all, my mother was born here and raised here and my father was too. But they never lived here after they were married. Interviewer: What did your father do? Mrs. Kindel: He was an investment broker. Interviewer: And he moved from place to place? Mrs. Kindel: Yes. Except, well New York was the longest place we stayed in one place. I went to Horace Mann School in New York which as I look back on it is a perfectly marvelous school. And then I went to Dana Hall in Wellesley and I never went to college. Got boy-crazy about then. Interviewer: Was Dana Hall a Junior College or was it a finishing school? Mrs. Kindel: No it was a finishing school. Interviewer: I think it’s a junior college now but I’m not… Mrs. Kindel: Pine Manor is. Interviewer: Oh it’s Pine Manor. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah, Pine Manor. Interviewer: Well now you were married in what year were you married? Mrs. Kindel: Twenty-four. Interviewer: Twenty-four, and you had met Mr. Kindel before, on one of your visits to Grand Rapids? �4 Mrs. Kindel: Yes. Yes but he asked me to marry him the first date we ever had. Interviewer: Oh really. Mrs. Kindel: And we were married six weeks from the next day. So that was a whirlwind courtship. Interviewer: I’d say so. And Mr. Kindel has always been in the furniture business I believe. Mrs. Kindel: Yes. He graduated from Michigan and worked for Berkey and Gay; and then his father bought back this plant that he had built originally and Chuck became production manager and remained there until he sold it. Interviewer: Now that’s a very famous name in Grand Rapids furniture. Mrs. Kindel: For quality it is. Interviewer: Quality, bedroom furniture particularly? Mrs. Kindel: Yes they started with just they call it case goods and then they branched out. They made dining room furniture; they don’t make any upholstered pieces. Just dining room and bedroom tables, and occasional tables. Father Kindel invented the folding davenport bed that you’re familiar with. The Kroehler bed. All those patents of his were his. He sold them to Kroehler. Interviewer: Well that’s interesting to know. I think that someone once told me that Mr. F. Stuart Foote invented the coffee table. Mrs. Kindel: Did he? Interviewer: He just cut off the legs of a table of sorts. Mrs. Kindel: Well that was easy. Interviewer: When you came here when you were married and started to live here, how long did it take you before you got interested in the organization in which I and many other people associate you, mainly the Kent County Humane Society? Mrs. Kindel: Well, my mother and I have been interested in New York in humane society work. As a girl twelve years old with a pigtail down my back I used to solicit money for different humane societies at the Madison Square Garden entrance to the arena when they’d have the horse shows on. I’d had a table out there with some of mother’s friends chaperoning and I started doing that. Then I, after I was married, it wasn’t very long when I heard such distressing stories, there was no society functioning in Grand Rapids. There was a society the Kent County Humane Society but it wasn’t doing anything. So I always had a lot of nerve I guess. Mr. Talmadge, a very delightful old gentleman, Bill Talmadge, was the president. I went down and called and �5 made an appointment and went to see him and I told him what I thought in no uncertain terms that they should have a functioning humane society and so forth. So we talked it over and he said you know I’ve just been waiting for you. He said we need young blood; we need somebody to do something. Well so we decided that we would reorganize and he would name half of a board of directors and I would name half. Very informally done. This is the way we started, restarted, the Kent County Humane Society which is one of the oldest in the country. I think it was started way back in the sixties or seventies, I forget now. But it’s a very old one. Anyways we started off and such wonderfully fine men and women helped us. We had Chief O’Malley on the board for a number of years. He was a great police chief and a wonderfully fine person. We umm what’s his name, Mr. McPherson an attorney in town, of great ability, a great horseman. And Mrs. G. A. Hendricks was a club woman who knew how to run publicity and do things… I learned so much from the men and women who came on that board. It was a great group of them. Interviewer: Well what year was this? Mrs. Kindel: Well, I think it was in the late twenties, it was about nineteen thirty I think. Interviewer: About nineteen thirty? Mrs. Kindel: Um Hum Interviewer: But they’d actually been in existence for sixty or seventy years. Mrs. Kindel: Yes. Interviewer: Doesn’t look like they’ve done very much. Mrs. Kindel. They had a small amount of money. The Michigan Trust kept it intact and they paying the legal aid office four hundred dollars a year, I think that’s all they realized on this little investment, they gave that to the Legal Aid Office to answer the telephone which was listed Humane Society. Well that was perfectly ridiculous to pay them four hundred a year for half a dozen calls, you know. So we severed that arrangement and started on our own. We did pretty well through the years; we never had a shelter but we wanted one and needed it badly so George Welsh was city manager and Ad Carroll was chief of Police and both of them were friends. So I went to them with my tale of woe and they were then using for the pound a lean-to down on the public market. It was just an awful shack. Cold and hot, with summer, cold in the winter and so forth and they ended by giving me supervision of it. The city commission voted that me as supervisor of the pound, at a dollar a year I was a “dollar a year man”, and we met I don’t recall just how long we continued that way, but as long as we did. And then W.P.A. labor came in and they arranged to use that labor and build a pound and they let me plan it. And when Mr. Kammeraad [Peter Kammeraad] was city manager and he’s very kind, he let me come down to city hall and we really built what was a nice animal shelter. It was modern and up-to-date in every way. And I had three men that were working for me and two cars. That was my equipment. �6 I had to do all the buying through the purchasing agent of the city. And be responsible for all that went on and we, we had a rabies epidemic during that time and I had to put an unlisted phone in, the public became so irate over certain things and they’d take it out on me. I had a strenuous time with that pound, but it provided us with a humane shelter. And a number of years went by and unfortunately I had osteoarthritis, with severe headaches I just couldn’t continue. So I asked on my board who would take over that appointment if I could get the City Commission to name one of them as supervisor so we could still keep hold of that. Nobody would take that responsibility, nobody would do the work. So I had to bow out and just let it go as it went. Well fortunately it had some ups and downs and troubles but right now it’s going very nicely and they had a drive, raised two-hundred thousand dollars and built a lovely modern shelter with every convenience and everything they need. And they seem to be functioning, raising money well and I’m awfully pleased and happy about them. Interviewer: Has this been a private agency? Mrs. Kindel: They always Interviewer: But you did your purchasing you said through the city. Mrs. Kindel: Well that’s when I managed the pound, when the pound was my shelter. Interviewer: Where was that located? Mrs. Kindel: Down across the river where, down where the big public market is. Do you know where I mean? Interviewer: Well, I’m not sure. Mrs. Kindel: Gee I can’t think. Grandville Avenue. That, down that way. Interviewer: Where is the new facility? Mrs. Kindel: The new one is, is out, my memory. It’s west… Interviewer: On the other side of the river? Mrs. Kindel: Oh yes. It will come to me I think. Interviewer: Maybe I should know. I can’t think offhand. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah we both should know. It’s on the, I’ll put it in when I get it. Interviewer: Well you can always look it up. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. I can look it up in the phone book, right here. Interviewer: Ok. I’ll just switch it off. �7 Mrs. Kindel: Northwest. Interviewer: What was that address again? Mrs. Kindel: Eighteen ninety Bristol Northwest. Kent County Humane Society. Interviewer: And how much of a staff do they have today, I presume they have a director. Mrs. Kindel: They had a women manager, a Mrs. Pullen. I don’t know what their staff consists of, I’m ashamed to say. I haven’t been out there lately, in the last year. I don’t know. They have several… Well it takes, I think they have two cars; they’ve had two cars, two drivers and then shelter people to keep that place clean and feed the animals. And put them to sleep when their time is done and so forth. It takes quite a few. Interviewer: How large a membership? Mrs. Kindel: It takes money; I don’t know what they’re doing now. I’m not at all involved in it. I send them a check. I’ve done so many years of it I just keep out. Interviewer: Pretty close to forty years, I would say. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. Interviewer: That’s quite a record. Mrs. Kindel: Well I didn’t even stop there you know. Then I got the bright idea that it would be nice to have a state federation of Humane Societies. So about a year or two after I got this one, I sent out letters to every society in the state that I could find and asked them to come here to a meeting at the YMCA; and we incorporated that day the Michigan Federation of Humane Societies. And it had quite a history. We did a lot of different things. We put wayside zoos under a law to regulate them. We had a member of the state police. Captain Scavarda was appointed by the police to serve on our state board. And he was just of great value. He came to every meeting I think and brought us always a report of how many humane cases the state police handled during the interim. And of course that was terrific coverage. We just went to town on it. We had trouble with Mackinaw Island. They don’t have any… they have a lot of horses up there, you know, and they never had a veterinarian on the island. And these horses were overworked and underfed and everything. We had an awful time for many years. I went to governors about it and I tried to get on a Island Commission to fight Murphy, asked him if he’d appoint me on it and a newspaperman from up north somewhere told him not to do it. They didn’t want a nosy woman on the Park Commission so I didn’t get on it. But there were problems all over the state that had to be taken care of. In nineteen thirty-four, that was drought year. I don’t know whether this is going to shut me up. Interviewer: No, no. this is exactly what we want. I’m sure. �8 Mrs. Kindel: In nineteen thirty-four was a drought year and Michigan was declared a secondary drought area which meant that reduced rates on shipping of animals but no additional feed was shipped into here. And we had starving animals and farmers were just crazy. I was swamped with phone calls and letters and help, help. So what to do, I didn’t know how to get enough money to handle it. So I wrote Eleanor Roosevelt and she moved like chain lightening. She gave my communication to, what was the man who was head of welfare? For her? Well I’ll have to think of that again. Gave him this and he wired me and said no farm animal need starve. And he released immediately three-hundred thousand dollars in federal Relief money in the state of Michigan to buy feed for the cattle which was just a god send. That was the, I received national recognition for that little job which was very satisfying and all due to Eleanor Roosevelt. Well anyway the Michigan Federation went along through the years and next month they’re having a meeting, I’ve just received a notice and I felt so happy when I saw it because it’s so well thought out and planned. They’re functioning as I would like to have them do and it makes me feel happy about it. So that was that. Then I got the bright idea, our national association was sort of monkeying along and not doing a great deal and a man from the east whom I knew well in the work, and I were both disgruntled about it. So we called a meeting in Chicago of seven states, the seven states surrounding us here. And we organized what we called the Midwest Humane Conference. And these states, we had an annual meeting and then we had directors’ meetings in between. But they took they furnished fresh ideas and programming and, and helped to the struggling societies through the seven states. And that also is still going. They’re having their annual meeting in May this year. So those are my babies. I served as their president for the first years. So that’s what I did. What else have I done? Then I got interested in Starr Commonwealth through Mr. Floyd Starr, who was just a saint of course, he was a marvelous person. And I served twenty-odd years on his board and as a few years as vice-president of the school. Interviewer: Why don’t you tell about that because I’m sure that there will be people in future years who will be interested to know and may not be familiar with it. So why don’t you talk about the Starr Commonwealth a little bit. Mrs. Kindel: Well, Mr. Starr as a young boy got the idea that he wanted to take care of boys. And he had a farm with quite a bit of acreage. He named the little house Gladsome Cottage, and he had a handful of boys to start with. They were [came] through the courts, some come through their parents, and some through agencies, but they’re boys with problems. And he has had a phenomenal success. At one time, it was a ninety point two [percent], I think, success; those boys never repeated or went into further crime. He loves these boys and he has an understanding, a natural psychology, of handling them so that he brings them into real manhood. We have ministers and writers and teachers and all sorts of professions among them. And the school is just, it would do credit to any private school. The campus is simply beautiful, and the buildings are lovely. He never builds a building unless he has the money right in his hands to do it. Interviewer: And where is this located? Mrs. Kindel: Albion, Michigan. �9 Interviewer: In Albion, yeah. Is it out in the country? Mrs. Kindel: Yes. I don’t know what the total acreage is. It used to be twenty-five hundred acres. He’s bought up farms when they would be in the distressed sales, you know. He’s built these cottages, he calls them, but they’re really brick, English-type houses and he has a house pair, a father and mother, house parents, in each cottage. And the school system is, has to be, of course, meet the state qualifications and requires a very high type of teacher, which makes it very costly too. We have to have better teachers than the public schools would have. And the same thing now is true with Social Service. We didn’t used to have to conform to that, but we do now; he has quite a Social Service department. And it has beautiful gymnasium and beautiful auditoriums. And friends of his in Detroit built his home, which is a beautiful home that he used to live in for life on the campus. And he believes in prayer and the efficacy of prayer for everything. And these boys have been taught to pray when they needed anything, even when there was just a handful of them. They needed a school building, and he had women he employed that would go around into the different towns and solicit money for schools, or for the school. And this one, who came into Grand Rapids, went to see Mrs. Emily Jewell Clark one day and tell her about what was going on and what progress had been made and what they needed. And they needed a school building. And Mrs. Clark said, “Well have you got the plans for it? What did you want, how did you want it?” “Well,” she said, “there are plans down at school.” And Mrs. Clark said, “Well you get them and come back.” So this lady went and got the plans and came back to her with them, and laid them out, and Mrs. Clark studied it and she said, “I’ll build that building for Starr.” So, in those days many, many years ago it was about five hundred thousand dollars, now I suppose it would be a million. It was a beautiful building. But the interesting thing is that Mr. Starr had this little group of boys pray for the school building. They needed it. He said, “We need that now, and we’ll pray and ask God to give that to us.” And that’s what they do. The people who gave him his home, the man was very ill in Florida one winter and they phoned back to the school and they said, “Floyd, get your praying group together.” And he had those boys, he organized them so they prayed all day and all night, right around the clock, he had this group going. And this man recovered. And he was so pleased of course, the family was so happy, that they gave him his lovely home. Well the place is full of stories like that. Interviewer: Sure. Mrs. Kindel: It’s just an inspiration to be with him. Norman Peale dedicated the chapel, which is a lovely one, and when he was talking to the boys he said, “You know there’s a term that I don’t use lightly in talking, but,” he said, “I must here.” He said, “Uncle Floyd Starr is Christ-like.” And that’s really what he is. He is a very spiritually-minded man. He’s ninety-one years old and just as sharp as he can be. He wants to run everything, which is a little bit difficult right now, at that age you know, so we try to keep him busy off-campus, send him on trips and so forth. But he’s a remarkable person. And it’s enriched my life so. Mrs. Ruth Rhoda, Ruth Bryan Rhoda, was a trustee for several years and became a dear friend of mine. I enjoyed her so much. And Jesse Stuart, the contemporary writer, is another friendship I have made through there. All interesting people; very worthwhile. Interviewer: You spoke of the, Mrs. Clark’s gift of the, of one of the first large buildings I take it. About when do you suppose that was made? Back in the twenties? Or before that? Mrs. Kindel: It was before I knew them, any of them down there. So I imagine it was the twenties. Wasn’t that a lovely thing to do? �10 Interviewer: Yes. You know she did quite a lot for the Art Museum, when it was called the Art Gallery. Of course, many people still do call it that. And very often I see a painting which was given by her, or in memory of her. There must be a great many of them, especially American paintings of the early twentieth century, late nineteenth century. Mrs. Kindel: What was Mary Perkins’s maiden name? Interviewer: Wilcox. Mrs. Kindel: Wilcox. Mrs. Wilcox gave Wilcox Cottage to the school, and that’s sort of an interesting story. Her son Raymond, the landscape man, was a member of a firm in Detroit. Mr. Starr never hesitates to ask for anything and he usually gets it, and he went to this landscape outfit and told them he’d like to have this property landscape planned. And they assigned him to young Mr. Raymond, who I guess was a young man then. And so, he drew these plans up. And he took them home to his mother’s one time. And he said, “You know Mother,” and he showed these to her and told her the story and everything, “There’s something you could do.” “Well what could I do?” “Well,” he said, “you see where this spot is right here?” He said, “You could build them Wilcox Cottage.” And she did. It’s a lovely home there, still functioning. But he did a lot; the landscaping is just beautiful, the whole place. Interviewer: Well I guess he was a very noted—or is, a very noted landscape architect, he’s still living. Mrs. Kindel: Well Mr. Starr just walks in and says, he went in to a gentlemen, I don’t know his name and I don’t know him, Mr. Kindel does, but Floyd knew about him, and he, one afternoon, was in his town, so he went to the door and introduced himself as Mr. Starr. And he said, “I wonder if I could take the opportunity of telling you about my boys.” Cold turkey this is, no appointments or anything, so in he goes and sits down and tells this gentlemen all about the boys and about the school and everything. [He] goes out with a check for seventy-five thousand dollars in his hands, clutched firm. A building. I used to sit at a board meeting, Frank Dean, do you know Frank Dean from Albion? He’s an architect. Interviewer: No, I don’t know him. Mrs. Kindel: He built Evelyn Avery’s house, he was that architect. Well, he’s lots of fun. He used to sit next to me at board meetings. He’d say, “Now wait a minute, he’s going to open that middle drawer and there’s going to be a check in there for a hundred thousand.” Well, truly, everything comes to this man. He’s something really remarkable. Michigan—I don’t know they know or appreciate him. He’s very different. Interviewer: I think he’s probably one of the best known citizens in the state, and has been for a great many years. Mrs. Kindel: He’s a darling. Interviewer: Are you still on that board? �11 Mrs. Kindel: No. Teddy served on it, and Chuck served on it, and I served on it. We’re all off of it now. But we’d go down there quite frequently. We’re very fond of him. And he comes up here; when things get going and he doesn’t like it and he can’t understand some modern ideas, he comes up here and cries on our shoulder. [To dog] Joey! Interviewer: [to dog] Sit down. Mrs. Kindel: It’s an inspiration to have known him and to be associated with him. We think it’s a real privilege. Interviewer: How many boys do they have at Starr Commonwealth? Mrs. Kindel: An average of a hundred and seventy-five. Interviewer: So it’s not really terribly big. Mrs. Kindel: No. Interviewer: But it gives them a chance to work closely with each boy. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah, they have to have them in smaller groups I imagine. They have some tall stories; they have murders, they have thievery, rape, arson, you name it, book’s thrown at them and everything. But they sure handle it. I’ve walked with Mr. Starr around campus, and the worst he’ll ever say about a boy is, “He’s a pill.” He’ll put his arm around a boy and say, “Katrina, now he’s just a pill.” Never anything worse than that. But he just expresses such love, it’s remarkable. Interviewer: Just taking a look at our tape here. I think, oh yes, we have quite a long—a few minutes left on this side. I don’t want to keep you all day. In the, I’ve known of course that you, at one point, had quite a large collection of Lincoln books and letters and papers of all sizes, types. How did your interest, where did you interest in Abraham Lincoln develop? Mrs. Kindel: Abraham Lincoln? Well that’s World War II. My son was going to be inducted, and I thought I’d take him over to Chicago, we’d go see, Oklahoma was the big musical show you know, we’d go over and get cheered up a little, because I was blue as blue could be. So, over we went and I had read somewhere an advertisement for the Abraham Lincoln Bookshop. And I’d always enjoyed reading things about Mr. Lincoln, I didn’t know very much, but, we decided we’d look this shop up. So we went down in the Loop in an office building, way up on some high floor were these three little rooms, about ten by ten all of them, no bigger, and the young man who owned this bookshop, Ralph Newman, the enthusiast of all enthusiasts and a brilliant intellect, wonderfully interesting person, greeted us. Well, we just had about an hour; it was perfectly wonderful listening to him. And he said to me, “Why don’t you collect Lincolniana?” “Oh,” I said, “I don’t know enough to do a thing like that.” I said, “I’m not a college woman,” I said, “I haven’t been educated that way, and I don’t know that I’d know anything about it. I couldn’t collect a thing like that.” “Well,” he said, “there’s nothing to that.” He said, “I’ll make a checklist for you and as we get each item we’ll check against it and,” he said, “I’ll help you.” Well, that sounded reasonable. So I said Ok, I’d start. And I think I bought two or three books. And then I bought a little memo, Lincoln wrote many of them, similar ones. This one says on it, “I suppose there be a charge against this man, but if there is none, let him be discharged.” Signed A. Lincoln and dated sixty-three I think. So we bought that. And that was our �12 introduction to Lincoln. And Ted went off to the wars and I continued with the Lincoln collection. Well when it grew to be about seven hundred volumes and I loved it, I enjoyed reading it and enjoyed handling it, but of course, a collection like that has to go under the Fine Arts Policy and has to be catalogued in duplicate. There were mechanical things about taking care of it that got me as my hands got worse with arthritis and I foresaw that it was beyond me, it was getting beyond me. So I sent out the word to a few places that I wanted to dispose of it. Well a librarian came from Iowa Wesleyan and one from Central Michigan, and Calvin, that’s three that came here, all wanted it. And then I talked with my son. I didn’t think he was interested to take care of it. I said, “Teddy. What about it now, seriously? Think of this. Do you want it? You have to take the responsibility of taking care of it. It isn’t just like other books that sell for a couple of dollars here and there.” Trying to impress upon him. Well he said, “Mother, I always thought it would be mine.” And he said, “Just because it’s yours, I’d want it.” Well that settled it. I said alright. So by-golly I wrapped up each little volume and we shipped them out to Ted. And he has them in Vail, Colorado. And the joke on him is that people know he has it; so, right now he was telling me on the phone last week that he has three speaking engagements on Mr. Lincoln as his birthday approaches on the twelfth. So he has to go and speak in the schools now; this, I don’t think he’s too crazy about but it’s part of being the owner of that library. So that’s where the Lincoln Library is. And then I, Mr. Newman suggested, he said, “Why don’t you collect books by the women? About and by the women of the Civil War.” Which I am doing. And I don’t know, I haven’t counted them. I think there’s about two, three hundred there. And it’s very interesting reading. They’re smart girls, those women were. And I have a number of letters; I’ve got several letters of Mrs. Lincoln’s, I have a letter of Mrs. Jefferson Davis, and I have Mrs. Lee, and Mrs. Freemont, General Freemont’s wife. What other ones do I have? Well I have several letters of those women, I’d like more. So that’s what my collection business is now. But I’m always buying books, my book bills are something. I love poetry. That first section is all poetry. Interviewer: This is a very beautiful room. What are the dimensions of it? Mrs. Kindel: It’s forty-five…is it forty-five or thirty-five? Oh Lord. Honestly, my memory dearie. I couldn’t tell you. Interviewer: Well, it’s at least thirty-five, maybe a little longer than that I’d say. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. It’s twenty, the bay window from there over here is twenty, I know that. That’s twenty. And this is less. Interviewer: It breaks into nice individual units. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. Well we built it this way, because in our other home, we had what was a sunroom, it was that vintage of a house, and we made it into a little library. And everybody always sat in the little room; no one ever sat in the living room. So we thought when we built this we would put the books and put everything in here, and this is it. We sit here for all occasions. Interviewer: I think you could almost take the visitor around the room and tell a story about literally scores of items in the room. Mrs. Kindel: There are some interesting things— �13 Interviewer: Because I’m looking behind me at the moment and here’s a case full of Chinese figures and other—here, I think your telephone is ringing. Mrs. Kindel: Well Chuck can answer it. Interviewer: Oh I see. Anyway, you have all kinds of objets d’art and statuaries and little statuettes and teapots and— Mrs. Kindel: Copenhagen ware in there. That gentleman that’s up in the top shelf, that odd looking bit, is from the bay of the Gold Coast; Bay of Bimini is it? He’s carved of ivory. Interviewer: Oh up there, I see. Mrs. Kindel: Yes, in the center. Interviewer: What’s that, a gigantic Toby jug? Mrs. Kindel: Toby jug. No, he’s a regular size. He looks big sitting up there I guess. He’s a regular one. Some of my nice pieces in there, the piece of carved jade on the top shelf. I had a friend in school in New York whose father was a German comedian at the Metropolitan Opera House for many years, and at the end of the war they went, returned to Germany. And at the end of World War II her husband had been killed by the Russians. She’d had a child, and her father was gone and so forth, and she could reclaim her citizenship. She’d been born in this country, on one of their trips over here and if she had American money to get out of Germany she could come over here and get her citizenship back. So Chuck arranged it all and we brought her back. And that stone head is off a full-size figure, she brought me that. All her nicest things she could salvage. Her family were the Hagenbeck family, I mean she married into the Hagenbeck family in Germany, the great animal people for the zoos and the museums and the circuses and all that stuff. And they sold all these beautiful things explorers brought from all over the world. So she gave me some of my nicest pieces, they came from Hamburg. Interviewer: Let me turn the tape over a moment. We’re recording again, I hope we are. I’m pretty sure we must be. I’m not going to bother to check it again, I just…Yes, yes, we must be, because the little needle is moving up and down. So we were talking about some of the things in your room and I wanted to come back to your collection of Lincolniana. Did you ever exhibit it? Mrs. Kindel: Oh I had an awful experience. The museum, our museum downtown, wanted an exhibit one time. So they sent somebody out to go through my material and see what they would like and so forth. My letters are of a material, I forget the name of it, it protects them, you can read them and handle them without touching the letter, you know what I mean? They’re all protected like that. So I loaned her these. My dear, they took them all out of those protecting envelopes they were in and put a thumbtack through that handbill, that’s an original old handbill. They had thumbtacks up in the top of that one, and they had these letters just lying in the window with nothing. I’d never loan again. Interviewer: I don’t blame you. Mrs. Kindel: After that, I thought—you’d think that museum would know better, wouldn’t you? �14 Interviewer: Maybe they do now. Let’s hope. Mrs. Kindel: Let us hope. Interviewer: I’m interested in that handbill; it says Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Is that the first night, or just one of the earliest? Mrs. Kindel: Eighteen sixty-four. Interviewer: Eighteen sixty-four. Mrs. Kindel: March tenth. Interviewer: I think it was made into a play before that probably, I think. Mrs. Kindel: I have a first edition of Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Interviewer: Of course, that came out long before the Civil War, or several years before the Civil War didn’t it? Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. Do you know about books, you know they ruined, well not the value completely, but they detracted from the value by binding these. Interviewer: Was it originally a two volume set? Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. Here’s what the cover was. Interviewer: The original cover, yeah. Mrs. Kindel: There’s the end piece. And there’s the other. Interviewer: They preserve it, but they do, it does lessen the value. Mrs. Kindel: That took just half the value away. Interviewer: Let’s see what year. What year do you—? Mrs. Kindel: Eighteen fifty-two. Interviewer: Alright, I thought it was about that period. Mrs. Kindel: It’s a lovely binding. Interviewer: Yes it is. See, it was bound in Boston, well it says Boston eighteen fifty-two, but that’s the year of the publication not the binding. Very handsome indeed. Well, there must be some other— We talked a little about Oriental art, and things you’d like to, if you were to start all over again collecting. �15 Mrs. Kindel: Well that’s a George Inness painting over the mantel, which is one of our treasures. Father Kindel gave it to me. When I came into the family I kept raving about it so, he said, “When I go, you have that.” Interviewer: That was Mr. Kindel Senior? It’s a lovely painting. Mrs. Kindel: Yes, it is a beauty. Interviewer: Would you say that much of the furniture in this room is original antique or some of it reproduction? Mrs. Kindel: No, it’s all reproduction. Interviewer: Is it mostly Grand Rapids? Mrs. Kindel: Except that wine cooler over that. Yes, it’s all Grand Rapids. Interviewer: That speaks well for our, the quality of our design in Grand Rapids. Mrs. Kindel: Oh yes; we’ve got Chinese tables over there. ---two Chinese. Interviewer: What, who did that painting of the ship? Mrs. Kindel: That’s a museum piece, that’s Clays. He’s a Belgian artist. C-L-A-Y-S. And that has an interesting story. When I was little girl it was in the apartment of friends of ours and I always loved it. I evidently did an awful lot of talking about everything, because when I got married they sent it to us for a wedding gift. And I do love it, I think it’s a real beauty. And we have down there the picture of the three Kindel men: C.M., Ted, and his little son now. Interviewer: How long has Ted been out in Vail? Mrs. Kindel: Eleven years I think it is. Yes, I’m quite sure of it, eleven or twelve. Interviewer: Wonderful place. Mrs. Kindel: He’s quite the pillar of the post out there. He’s so busy, my gracious, he’s on the Board of Education and he’s an Associate, [the] Board of Associates control Vail, they’re the governing body, and he’s on that. When the president was out here this winter, Christmastime you know, he was so busy, he said, “I’m ready to fall on my face,” he said, “I don’t know how the president takes it.” They had a party every night and skied every day. And then the Cabinet came out at some point to see Jerry. And Ted said, “Gee, I got so I knew some by first name.” It was so interesting you hear little tidbits of conversation about things that you read about. It was, they’d had Jerry and the family for several Christmases now. They started it back when Jerry rented Ted’s house one Christmas holiday and ever since then they have them for Christmas Eve dinner. They had thirty this Christmas; they had to have six Secret Servicemen with them. And before the president and his party came in, a group of eight men came to the door, Teddy didn’t know who they were, unannounced, they’re called a Bomb Squad. And they came in the house, they went through every bureau drawer, every clothes closet, every cupboard, everything before the president was allowed to enter. And I said, “Was that �16 just your house that they did that too?” “No,” he said. All week, or two weeks, every place he went into, that Bomb Squad went ahead of him. Interviewer: That’s interesting, I never heard of that. Mrs. Kindel: I’d never heard of that. Interviewer: I knew that the Secret Service was very much in evidence whenever he appears in Grand Rapids or wherever it is, but I never knew about the Bomb Squad. Mrs. Kindel: I never did either. That amazed me. Well they had the Secret Service for dinner too, and they had friends of the Fords from Utah with five children, and of course Nancy and Ted have five children, so that was ten children at the dinner party. But they had a good time anyway. We called out there and talked to Jerry. And I said, “Good evening, Mr. President” and then I laughed and I said, “Jerry, I can’t call you Mr. President.” And he said, “Well Katrina, you don’t need to. You call me Jerry.” But he is a nice person, I mean regardless of how you think of him as a president, and I have some reservations, he’s a very fine man, he’s a nice, good man. Thank God after what we had. Interviewer: We went through quite a lot. Mrs. Kindel: So they had real fun. Nancy got herself on the Today program. I was watching it kind of idly one morning and I thought, that voice sounds so familiar, and I looked and here was Nancy with Jerry Ford in the main street at Vail, well she was throwing her arms up around his neck because he’s so tall and big, she was hugging and kissing him, and she says, “Welcome Mr. President!” Interviewer: We should explain that Nancy is your daughter-in-law. Mrs. Kindel: Oh yes, Nancy my daughter-in-law. Interviewer: It’s interesting; many of us, many, many people of course in Grand Rapids have known Jerry, rather informally, for a good many years and now it’s quite different. Mrs. Kindel: I know, now we feel like we have a personal share of him. Interviewer: Yes, of course. Mrs. Kindel: Well he is a nice, good guy. And Betty is. Betty and Nancy have become good friends. Interviewer: I want to just shut it off for a second; I want to take another look at your book here. We’ve just been talking about President Ford and of course this is a very highly Republican area, at least we have always thought that it is. And in looking through this book, this book of biographies in which you appear, I notice that you apparently are identified as a Democrat. And I’m curious to know how you, was your family a Democratic family or were you? Mrs. Kindel: Yes, my father was always a Democrat, however I worked for Jerry Ford Senior one year. He put me in charge of the three wards out here in East Grand Rapids, told me get the vote out. And I did it for the Republicans and also served as a toast mistress for their dinner and if he didn’t have the nerve at the dinner to tell this story about me. When I was getting the poll list copied, I had �17 volunteers of course go out to East Grand Rapids, and I said now, the names that have R after them, those are the ones we want you to copy. So we come to find out that R meant Removed and D meant deceased. And Jerry Ford Senior told this before this big dinner about me, I was so embarrassed I almost died. My Republican, I worked hard, I did a good job for them, but I am a Democrat. Interviewer: Well of course we have a Democrat as a congressman now which is a new twist after so many years of a Republican. Mrs. Kindel: Well I tell you, Dorothy MacAllister got me terribly interested in going in the Democratic fold. I admire her so tremendously and enjoyed being with her, oh what a brilliant woman she is. And that’s how I got going at it actively. I was chairman of the Radio, Radio State Chairman for Radio. That Democratic party was organized like nobody’s business. And the women had all these different…Piggy Bank, and the Radio, and different things and they had State Chairman and then they had County Chairman. And you were give money from the central treasury to carry on your work with and everything, it was just fabulous the way they operated. So I was part of that. Interviewer: Well, what do you think about our city? Mrs. Kindel: I love Grand Rapids. Interviewer: You like Grand Rapids. Mrs. Kindel: I’ve always loved it. Interviewer: I wasn’t trying to get that kind of a response necessarily. Mrs. Kindel: Well I do. I think it’s a nice place to live, I always have. I think the climate’s miserable, but— Interviewer: Especially today. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah well, the summer’s are hot and humid and all that, but no, I think it’s…I lived in so much bigger cities as a girl and all, and I envied people who lived here. I was glad to come here to live. I think it’s a great place to live for families. Still, when they grow older they’re kind of bored, it isn’t a very stimulating town is it? Interviewer: Well I think it’s more stimulating now than it was ten years ago, with the development of the new colleges, especially Grand Valley— Mrs. Kindel: I guess so. Interviewer: and I think there are more things going on. I had it—oh, one thing I wanted to bring out, I noticed in this book again that you are a member of the Marble Collegiate Church in New York City, of which Dr. Norman Vincent Peale is the minister. How did you happen to join that church? And when did you happen to join it? My two questions. Mrs. Kindel: I don’t really know. Mr. Kindel and I were both raised in the Christian Science Sunday School and Church, and we got pretty far away from it, practicing it, although it’s a philosophy that I �18 think stays with us pretty much, and we’re happy to have it, but I wanted to belong to a church, and I didn’t want to belong to the Christian Science church. Norman Peale had become a friend, we’ve had him here as a houseguest, he’s been in this house several times and Ruth, his wife, too. And I like his philosophy and his positive thinking, and so I joined it. And I’ve never been sorry. And he’s so painstaking; when I was ill this fall I had such a beautiful letter from him that he and Ruth were praying daily for my complete recovery. This isn’t just perfunctory with him, he’s, he really… Interviewer: He’s a real genuine person. Mrs. Kindel: Yes, he knows what he’s saying and why. He’s a remarkable person. My, what he, what good he does, those sermons broadcast and that beautiful church it’s so mellow with age you know, it’s over a hundred years old. Have you been in it? Interviewer: It’s way down on Fifth Avenue. I know where it is, I’ve never been inside it. Mrs. Kindel: You should, it’s an experience. Twenty-ninth street and Fifth. It’s a beautiful old church. Interviewer: It’s a lovely church. Mrs. Kindel: It’s the oldest Protestant church in this country. It’s quite a record. Interviewer: I didn’t realize that. You mean the parish goes back farther than any other. Dutch church, I presume, originally. Mrs. Kindel: Oldest Protestant church in the country. Interviewer: Well unless there is some other topic you think we— Mrs. Kindel: Well my grandparents, my Dutch grandparents, were the second couple, the first couple, married in the Dutch Reformed Church in Grand Rapids. In eighteen sixty-seven. Interviewer: Where was the church located? Mrs. Kindel: I don’t know. It’s the, well the big church up on College, that’s the outgrowth. Interviewer: Of course, it was down originally; when I was much younger it was on the corner of Fountain and Barclay. And that church burned. And then they moved to the corner of College and Fulton Streets. So I remembered that church, but whether, I’m sure it wasn’t originally there. I think it came, it was in some other location. Mrs. Kindel: Of course you know the Marble Collegiate is Dutch Reformed? Interviewer: Yes, I know that. Well, you’ve stuck with your Dutch ancestry you see. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. The Dutch will show up. �19 Interviewer: Well, this has been very pleasant. And I think, as I say, unless you have something else to add? Mrs. Kindel: No dearie. Heavens, you’ve got me talking a blue streak. Interviewer: Well that’s pretty good. That’s fine. Thank you very, very much, and I’m sure that a hundred years from now, somebody will be interested to hear this, I hope. Mrs. Kindel: Why yes, maybe they will. They’ll say, humane society? Well now what was that? Interviewer: They may still use that word, let’s hope. Mrs. Kindel: The millennium will not come too soon. Interviewer: No, I can agree with you there. Mrs. Kindel: No. A H Avery, Evelyn · 11 B Hagenbeck Family · 14 Hendricks, Mrs. G.A. · 5 Homiller, Mrs. (Aunt) · 2 Berkey and Gay · 4 Burns Family · 2 I C Carroll, Ad · 6 Caulfield Family · 2 Clark, Emily Jewell · 9, 10 D Dana Hall (school) · 3 Dean, Frank · 11 Duffy Family · 2 F Foote, F. Stuart · 4 Ford, Betty · 17 Ford, President Gerald R. (Jerry) · 16, 17 Illinois Lives · 1 K Kammeraad, Peter · 6 Kent County Humane Society · 5, 7 Kindel, Charles MacLear (Husband) · 1, 4, 11, 19 Kindel, Nancy (Daughter-in-law) · 17 Kindel, Ted (Son) · 12, 13, 16, 17 L Lincoln, Abraham · 12, 13 M MacAllister, Dorothy · 18 McPherson, Mrs. (Aunt) · 2 �20 Michigan Federation of Humane Societies · 8 Midwest Humane Conference · 8 T Talmadge, Bill · 5 N Newman, Ralph · 12, 13 U Uncle Tom’s Cabin · 14, 15 P Peale, Dr. Norman Vincent · 10, 18, 19 Pullen, Mrs. · 7 R Rhoda, Ruth Bryan · 10 Roosevelt, Eleanor · 8 S Starr Commonwealth · 9, 11 Starr, Floyd · 9, 10, 11, 12 Stuart, Jesse · 4, 10 V van Asmus, Edward Cup (Father) · 3, 17 van Asmus, Helen Hurlbut Long (Mother) · 2, 3, 5 van Asmus, Henry David Cup (Grandfather) · 1 W Welsh, George · 6 Wilcox, Mrs. · 10 Wilcox, Raymond · 10 Women of the Civil War collection · 13 Woodcock Family · 2 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7debdc962f2b5a9a9ea486d6aa6c2dcd.mp3 62a2338b9d2568fbdb0413c8bf12a3ed Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_48Kindel Title A name given to the resource Kindel, Katrina Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kindel, Katrina Description An account of the resource Katrina Cup van Asmus was born in 1904. She married Charles Kindel in 1924. She was heavily involved with the local and national Humane Society and was instrumental in forming the Michigan Federation of Humane Societies. Mrs. Kindel managed construction of the WPA project to build an animal pound on Grandville Avenue in the early 1930s. She served as a trustee and vice president of the Starr Commonwealth, a nationally-known training school and home for disadvantaged boys near Albion, MI. Mrs. Kindel collected rare books and had a large collection of Lincolnia. She died in 1987. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives