1 24 228 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6c92f68e249c145d3581f8781af91f36.mp4 8bfc632d8431e53b05f9626eb863641c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Gasdick-1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gasdick, Joseph Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941 Title A name given to the resource American Volunteer Group, circa 1941 Description An account of the resource Color film taken by American Volunteer Group (AVG) Crew Chief Joe Gasdick (no sound). The footage, dated circa 1941, documents the training and flight activities of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers," servicemen organized by the U.S. Government to aid in the defense of China during the Second Sino-Japanese war. Time-stamped scene list: 00:00 Chinese agricultural fields. 00:30 AVG army trucks parked along road. Chinese people passing in carts. 01:00 Chines garden or field. 01:40 Chinese plane under a net on Kunming airfield. 01:48 Chinese army fortresses. 02:24 Two Chinese guards sleeping on the ground. 02:30 Chinese soldiers training and smiling at camera. Army pillbox. 03:19 Landing bomber planes on Kunming airfield. 03:55 P-40 #97 taxiing on airfield. 04:09 AVG pilot and ground crew talking on P-40 #97. 04:44 P-40s lined up on Kunming airfield. A ground crew working on P-40. P-40, hanger and bomber planes on Kunming airfield. Three men in front of bomber plane. Chinese soldiers at pillbox. US bomber airplane. 05:58 Bomber airplane landing on Kunming. 07:20 Bomb holes in a road. Street in a Chinese town. Subject The topic of the resource China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945 Air pilots P-40 (Fighter plane) Kunming Shi (China). Liang shi ju Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng chi Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d343a59e95205b16524bf1b78d96c971.mp4 f077519facbf6aae8d842656fa7e86dd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Meisenheimer-33 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Misenheimer, Charles V. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1941 Title A name given to the resource AVG Flying Tigers, circa 1941 Description An account of the resource Film taken by American Volunteer Group (AVG) 1st Squadron Crew Chief Chuck Misenheimer, wtih color and black and white sections (no sound). The footage, dated circa 1941, documents the training and flight activities of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers," servicemen organized by the U.S. Government to aid in the defense of China during the Second Sino-Japanese war. Time-stamped scene list: 00:00 Rural area in China. Small village and Chinese people. 01:00 Chinese children gathering around AVG car. Water mill. AVG shooting guns. 1:32 Chinese workers rolling runway in Kunming. A two-pilots fighter airplane on ground. Dolan and other (McClure?)on air field. Landing airplanes. P-40 #13, #12, #33 and others on ground. 02:48 Snuffy Smith and Chinese crew with P-40 #93 of Hell's Angel on ground. Close-up of Hell's Angel insignia. 03:15 Adam and Eve insignia on P-40 #13. Chinese worker and pilots at airport eating lunch. Landing bomber planes. Train coming in. Chinese worker at airport. View of Kunming Lake. Misenheimer on mountain top. 05:07 P-40 #6 and #24 taxiing. Cross in cockpit of P-40. P-40 #13, #33 and others taking off from Kunming airfield. 06:12 Crashed Wright's P-40 on fire. AVG's Carney, Dean, Neale, Burguard talking in front of P-40 in Kweilin. Close-up of Bob Neale. A dog in water. Airplane parts. View of desert field. Bomb holes on the ground. 08:07 An AVG at repairing area in Kunming. J.J. Harrington standing by truck. Rodewald and others on truck. Hoffman walks to camera. Landing P-40. 09:36 An AVG sitting by remaining shot guns and engines of shot down plane in Kweilin. AVG's on Chow line (Schiel, Bright and others) in Kweilin. 11:03 Japanese hostage Honda with Harrington, Bond, Snuffy Smith, Bartling, Burguard, Bob Neale, Olson, Rossi, Rosbert and Chinese soldier in Kweilin. 11:20 Close-up of Honda. Close-up of bullet holes on a plane. Bomber airplane #74 and AVG. 12:50 Crashed airplane. Cars destroyed by air raid. Bombing in Yunnanyi. 14:00 P-40 and Jim Cross on Kunming airfield. A building on fire. Crew working on three bombs on the wing of P-40E. P-40E takes off. 15:05 Training airplanes. Chinese pilots. 16:03 Doc Rich on truck on Kunming airfield. Musgrove and other AVG's standing around truck. Name plate of Uebele and Misenheimer's room. 16:30 Misenheimer with a kitten and dogs at Kunming hostel #2. 17:24 Kitten. AVG with Kitten and dog. Kitten killing a dog. 19:00 Flying and landing training planes in Kunming. 20:00 Flying P-40. Landing US P-40E. 20:40 Cargo airplane 'Available Jones'. Chinese soldiers. Two-pilots fighters and biplanes take off and fly in the sky. 22:10 Destroyed British plane. Airplanes and a crowd of people around it. Fox and Overley by a passenger plane. American soldiers standing by plane. People wait to get into plane. 22:30 Crashed CNAC airplane. 25:00 Misenheimer on a truck. Kenner and other by AVG red cross car. 25:30 Chinese people running away from a town (Kunming air raid). People in shelters. Subject The topic of the resource China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945 Air pilots P-40 (Fighter plane) Kunming Shi (China). Liang shi ju Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp9 Language A language of the resource eng chi Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cc9561790874f524777f8ba4d86f8e5e.mp4 ddcc255b9f2a79acd5948f5dd10c9832 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Shu-140 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource P.Y. Shu Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1947 Title A name given to the resource Bangkok and Taiwan, 1947 Description An account of the resource Film in black and white and color taken by Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu (no sound). The footage was recorded by Shu as he traveled with Col. Claire Chennault to aid the Chinese Air Force in training and establishing the American Volunteer Group (AVG). The footage documents Shu's travel and family as well as Chennault's and the AVG's activities during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Time-stamped scene list: 00:00 (black and white film) Views of houses and villages from a moving boat. Chennault and wife on boat with other passengers. River traffic. 01:15 Temples and city from boat. Passengers disembark. City views in Burma from moving car. Temples and sightseeing. 03:50 Snake handlers with cobras. 04:18 Chennault with his wife, Anna, and baby in a park. Chennault's children(?) playing on spinning toy. 04:54 Chennault, P.Y. Shu and the others sightseeing in a city. Aerial shot of a city. More sight-seeing scenery. 05:18 Aerial view of a city. Chennault and other Westerners with a cargo plane, then boarding a bus. Sightseeing tour of ancient temples. 07:30 (black and white film) Ancient temple. 08:08 Baby jaguar on leash. 08:17 Swimming in a pool, playing tennis. Baby elephant. 09:27 Temple sightseeing. 11:22 (color film) Temple sightseeing, monks, giant statue of Buddha. City sights, monument. 12:20 Man with monkeys. Building with large tower. Dog. 13:20 P.Y. Shu's wife with dog and in a park. 14:20 Cabins, a model cabin and truck. Shu family. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Chennault, Claire Lee, 1893-1958 Subject The topic of the resource China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945 Chennault, Claire Lee, 1893-1958 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp25 Language A language of the resource eng chi Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c3a940f3f50504a4c7743da1d5614dbe.mp4 3ea0465da59b59593345ec4caf37b142 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3ba0d4875c802e1fbe6efacac727b745.pdf 2c30b00bc251a2aed0ae2fe94fe59c3e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Wilfred “Bill” Schaper Date of Interview: 04-23-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: We'll start off with a question, you can elaborate as much as you want. What you were you doing before you even heard about AVG? BILL SCHAPER: I was staff sergeant in the Army. Hamilton Field. I came home from my uncle and aunt's in Oakland and we had a room at the end of the barracks. Walker was there. Walker said you want to go to China? I said are you crazy? I feared he'd been drunk again or had been drinking. Well, he said, tomorrow morning you can sign up. And the next morning well, we signed up. That was in probably about May '41. FRANK BORING: What was your position in the military? BILL SCHAPER: I was staff sergeant 77th Pursuit Squadron, Hamilton Field? Came over from Oakland visiting my aunt and uncle when I got into the barracks my friend, Walker said you want to go to China? I said you've been drinking? No, I'm telling you the truth. I said what do I do? He said, come on with me in the morning to sign up. That's it. FRANK BORING: What had you heard about China? BILL SCHAPER: Nothing. Had no idea, not an inkling before that. �BILL SCHAPER: I had just come home from Oakland visiting my aunt and uncle when I checked into the barracks we had a room at the end. Walker asked me if I wanted to go to China. I said you've been drinking again. He said, no, I mean it. He'd been interviewed, I guess. And then he said come with me in the morning and you'll sign up. So I signed up and I never heard again for a couple of weeks whatever happened. In the meantime I was refused transfer to another group that would offer a better promotion by Mr. Aker, General Aker, and I had made up my mind to leave. There was no way you could get off of there in 1941. You were locked into the service. FRANK BORING: Hold off car going thru. Start right from the beginning. What were you doing before you heard about the AVG? BILL SCHAPER: Staff Sgt. U.S. Air Corp, Hamilton Field. I had just come back from Oakland visiting my aunt and uncle. And Walker my roommate at Hamilton Field asked me if I wanted to go to China? I said you been drinking again, no he said I mean follow me home we'll sign up tomorrow morning. That was it. FRANK BORING: A siren now. What were you doing before you ever heard about the AVG. BILL SCHAPER: I was a staff sergeant in the U. S. Air Corp at Hamilton Field, 77th Pursuit Squadron. I had gone over to visit my aunt and uncle in Oakland and when I got back Sunday night Walker was in our room and he asked me if I wanted to go to China? I said you've been drinking again? I could tell by the beer cans under the bunk. He said, no, I mean it come on over we'll sign up tomorrow morning. So we did. I think it was on a Monday morning. FRANK BORING: What was your experience? Why did you decide to go to China? BILL SCHAPER: I was refused a promotion to a group that split off to mark March Field and I was a little unhappy with my rank probably, if I remember. And when this opportunity came I decided to leave. �FRANK BORING: What did you know about China? BILL SCHAPER: Not a thing. Did not have no idea where I was going, when we were going to leave or nothing. Absolutely cold turkey. FRANK BORING: Was it just the two of you that talked about this? Or where there other guys that were? BILL SCHAPER: I think from Hamilton Field there or I never recalled but there must have been 8 or 9 or 10 of us. FRANK BORING: What was your first contact with representatives from CAMCO? BILL SCHAPER: I don't remember. FRANK BORING: Tell us how you got out of the military and into the AVG. BILL SCHAPER: Nobody ever asked me that before. I don't remember. I know we got notice that we were going to leave San Francisco on July the 1st and this was about the middle of June. [?] had a new Chevy at the time and I had to get that Chevy back to Chicago and turn around and come back in 5 or 6 days I think maybe a week. I got my Chevy back to Chicago, gave it to my parents and drove lease car to Fresno and then hitchhiked from Fresno to San Francisco. FRANK BORING: Once you got to San Francisco what did you find there in terms of AVG group that was there? BILL SCHAPER: I don't even remember the name of the hotel. It was all new to me. I was 29 or 30 years old - I was no kid. We left the P-36's and we got the P-40's I was a [?] chief and I think I knew more about that P-40 than anybody other than people in our group. I recall that one time we had a flight of new pilots come in from flight school and we took them down to Coalinga, down a dirt field because they were ground looping all the time on the concrete. Pilots could �probably tell you more about that than I. We had a couple of accidents down there after we came back from Coalinga I think this China deal came up. At the time we had no idea there was going to be a war in China. In fact we went over cold turkey. FRANK BORING: What was your experience with the P-40 when it first came in and what was your duties… what was your… what were you supposed to do with the airplane? BILL SCHAPER: I was crew chief, hanger chief, maintenance. Complete maintenance, from one end to the other. FRANK BORING: Could you explain in more detail what that involved? BILL SCHAPER: The biggest thing was swapping engines and propellers I guess. I thought the P-40 was a pretty good airplane. FRANK BORING: Let's start from there. I thought the P-40 was a pretty good airplane and they explain to us why you thought it was a pretty good airplane from your perspective don't even worry about the pilots or any of that. From your perspective. BILL SCHAPER: I can't evaluate that. FRANK BORING: Just say whatever you felt about the P-40. Was it an improvement on the P-36? BILL SCHAPER: It was a definite improvement on the P-36. Except it did have ground looping tendencies I guess. FRANK BORING: Let's hear you say again you said earlier that you thought the P-40 was a pretty good airplane. BILL SCHAPER: I guess the P-40 was an improvement over the P-36 that's all I can tell you. �FRANK BORING: Let's start again. Frank will ask the question. What did you think about the P-40 and you can say it had this ground looping problems and builds the airplane and then go into what you thought of it and the ground looping thing. BILL SCHAPER: You see as a mechanic, you don't have any… you don't [?] why it flies even, you don't care just make it fly. I thought the P-40 was a pretty good airplane over the P-36. It had the ground looping qualities that didn't exist in the P-36, I guess. I could tell you that when we got over to China, to Burma, we had Navy person that never knew a liquid cool engine from a tractor. FRANK BORING: Well, tell us more about your experience that you used in China. What is it that made you want CAMCO to have you? I mean why did they want you to go to China, why did they except you? BILL SCHAPER: I guess we were pretty well screened in Hamilton Field because we were the last of the group to be picked up after they brought everybody from back east. But what they were short of they picked up at Hamilton Field. And I was one of them. FRANK BORING: Why did they pick you? BILL SCHAPER: Qualification I guess. That's why Aker would let me go with the other group. FRANK BORING: Can you explain about that… why wouldn't Aker let you go? BILL SCHAPER: Aker's letter to me at the time said "unqualified replacements available" for our squadron. General Aker. General Ira Aker. Commanding General of the 8th Air Force World War II. FRANK BORING: You'll have to say that whole thing. When you say General Ira Aker - that's what we need. We need that whole title in there and then say why he didn't want you to go. Let's start from that point. �BILL SCHAPER: When they picked up replacements for the group they were putting together to go to China General Aker wouldn't release me for another group that went to March Field because a qualified replacement was unavailable. FRANK BORING: And you were qualified? BILL SCHAPER: Oh, yeah, as general mechanic, I was an electrician, a prop man, motor man, everything. FRANK BORING: Let's go to San Francisco now. You met up with some of the guys there at the hotel before you got on the ship. Or do you remember... BILL SCHAPER: Yeah, we had quite a group there before we got on the Jaegersfontein. We went right from there to a bus to the Jaegersfontein. FRANK BORING: Why don't you tell us something about that period? The meeting of all these guys. BILL SCHAPER: I don't remember. FRANK BORING: How about the ship itself. Do you remember getting on the ship? BILL SCHAPER: Oh, yeah, being from Hamilton Field I was familiar with San Francisco. These other guys had come, I mean our other crew personnel had been down in Los Angeles at the Jonathan Club living high on the hog. I went right to San Francisco, San Francisco shipped out. I don't think we were there 3 or 4 days. FRANK BORING: Tell us about the trip over on the ship. BILL SCHAPER: A helluva long ride that's all. It was one week, oh, you probably heard this, from San Francisco to Honolulu. Thirty days to �Singapore. Everything was dried up. We stayed in Singapore overnight, I think, and then shipped out to Toungoo, to Rangoon. FRANK BORING: What did you find when you arrived in Rangoon? BILL SCHAPER: We went put on a lorry and put on a train immediately. I know they searched us for arms. They tried to take all our arms away. I didn't have one. But nobody would relinquish what they had. They just kept them. Because the British authority at the time there was no arms in the British colony. FRANK BORING: Once you arrived in Rangoon you got on a train to go to Toungoo? What did you find when you arrived in Toungoo? BILL SCHAPER: It was raining. Probably rain. We checked in the barracks and the next morning we were told why we were there. FRANK BORING: What did they tell you? BILL SCHAPER: We were going to protect the Burma Road against the Japanese. I think that was the first indication that I had that there was a war going on. FRANK BORING: What were your duties? BILL SCHAPER: When I arrived in Toungoo? I think we had a general meeting and we were told why we were there. Other than that, before that we had no idea. I had no idea. FRANK BORING: Why were you there? BILL SCHAPER: To protect the Burma Road I guess. FRANK BORING: To get it on tape we've got to have you say when we were in Rangoon they had a general meeting and told us. Let's start again with you saying after you arrived in Toungoo. �BILL SCHAPER: We arrived in Toungoo we had a general meeting either a day or two days later and we were told why we were there. Before that I had no idea. Why we were there? FRANK BORING: That's what we are looking for. In spite the fact that you didn't get off at Toungoo again. BILL SCHAPER: When I arrived in Toungoo the following morning or the second morning after we had a general meeting and we were told why we were in Burma. To protect the Burma Road from the bombing Japanese airplanes, I guess. FRANK BORING: That's what we are looking for. BILL SCHAPER: Why don't you write the script? FRANK BORING: What were your duties, your daily duties there? BILL SCHAPER: My duty, I went over as a crew chief. I found out anyway and those of us who worked the P-40 that there were quite a few inexperienced personnel familiar with the P-40. So after I was crew chief for about a month I was appointed to go into the hanger and do the heavier work. I worked for, what the hell was his name, Pruitt? Pruitt and Harry Fox both Navy personnel who'd never seen a P-40 before. FRANK BORING: So what were your duties like? BILL SCHAPER: I did the most heavy maintenance. FRANK BORING: Which is? BILL SCHAPER: Engine change, propeller change, wing tips, repair damage. I didn't do any sheet metal work though. �FRANK BORING: At this time some of the pilots had never flown P-40, they were all BILL SCHAPER: Navy FRANK BORING: Checking out in the P-40. What kind of experience did you have with the airplanes coming in? I mean the ones that were damaged. What kind of work did you have to do on them? BILL SCHAPER: I did the repair work. FRANK BORING: Repair work is not enough. We need to know the details of what you actually did. If you have an example. For example, maybe Rossi messed up a propeller or something - you can tell a little story about that. BILL SCHAPER: I don't remember. I changed so many goddamn props. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Schaper_Bill_1991-04-23_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schaper, Wilfred E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Bill Schaper interview (video and transcript, 1 of 4), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Bill Schaper by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Bill Schaper was Crew Chief for the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 1st Squadron "Adam and Eves." He joined the AVG in 1941 after serving in the US Army as a Staff Sergeant in the 77th Pursuit Squadron. It was his responsibility to maintain the aircrafts. In this tape, Schaper discusses his life as a staff sergeant in the United States Air Corps prior to joining the American Volunteer Group, in addition to their journey overseas from San Francisco to Rangoon aboard the Jaegersfontein. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f0ab5ff6d9599090f85d9dda7ac05379.mp4 0b3fddf268f0272b6f159d884209fc22 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/df28ba97e8b8ecc1a0f0b611a31b69b5.pdf f1583845af30336a2ae646629ed6b542 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Wilfred “Bill” Schaper Date of Interview: 04-23-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: You came from California and never heard of China. What was your experience, what do you recall about arriving in this foreign country. How did it affect you? BILL SCHAPER: After landing in Rangoon everything was totally strange. We got on that train up to Toungoo and I guess bussed to the airport. First thing I sat down on was a bed that was a hard as the floor. Personally I enjoyed it myself. Because it was different. One thing I can recall we had a house boy and he used to bring us coffee in the morning and one morning the cup of coffee had a scorpion in the bottom. So we fired him. FRANK BORING: What was your daily routine like? BILL SCHAPER: Work. Just routine work. I did the most maintenance from daylight to dark every day. FRANK BORING: How about the working conditions, were they… BILL SCHAPER: The working conditions were quite primitive. I can recall we had spark plugs at that time that were not ceramic like you have now. They were plug wrapped in [?] glass plastic and they would absorb the moisture. Every time in the morning we would go out and warm up an airplane, it would be missing 2, 3, 4 cylinders. We �pulled the plugs out. I took them over to the cook shack put them in the oven, dry them out and brought them back. We were so short of equipment, supplies. Tools we had none, very few. I'm talking about hand tools. FRANK BORING: That is just the kind of thing we are looking for. That was perfect. That gives us a sense of pain. Keep going. Also… BILL SCHAPER: We were so short of supplies and batteries the same way. I can't think of anything else. FRANK BORING: Did you get frustrated and feed up with that kind of problems? BILL SCHAPER: Oh, yeah and then you wait for tomorrow. You are so short of equipment, supplies, tools you just wait until the equipment arrives My own experience we replaced parts of the Allison engine a crew chief would never attempt on the field just to keep them running. FRANK BORING: Like what? Give us an example. BILL SCHAPER: Taking the back of the engine off. Changing the drive gears. FRANK BORING: Anything else? I mean the thing about the oven putting the spark plugs in was great. What about batteries, gasoline. BILL SCHAPER: Gasoline was all hand pumped. I never worried about the gasoline, the armament, or radios those were always somebody else's job. FRANK BORING: Ok. Did you ever get the feeling that you were not worth it? The money you were getting paid. BILL SCHAPER: What do you mean? That was a lot of money-- $350 a month. FRANK BORING: Why don't you talk about that? The relationship of what you were getting in the military and… �BILL SCHAPER: Well, that was one of the reasons we left. The increase. I was making $90 bucks and flight pay at Hamilton Field and when they offered us $350 back there that [?] it right there. We left. I think a lot of guys [?]. FRANK BORING: When you were there, though, you were paid $350, but no equipment, hardly any tools, jerry-rigging stuff. What was your feeling at that time? Was it worth the pay? BILL SCHAPER: We didn't have any idea what we were getting into. Just cold turkey, you know. FRANK BORING: Give us an impression. An airplane would get damaged in training, what would happen? They would bring it into the hanger? You would start working on it, what was the procedure? Let's take an example of an airplane that gets banged up in training. BILL SCHAPER: Training accidents, yeah. Oh, we scavenged parts from one to keep others flying until we got the replacement parts. What they call it cannibalize them I guess. FRANK BORING: Was there any particular, any one airplane that you can recall from the training period that was particular difficult. BILL SCHAPER: They are all the same. P-40 is a P-40. FRANK BORING: How about giving us a sense, you mentioned earlier that you were experienced on the P-40 but most of the guys you were working with weren't. Did you have to train them? Or how did they eventually get around to being able to? BILL SCHAPER: I feel I would hurt somebody's feelings if I give my own opinion. FRANK BORING: Oh, no I was… �BILL SCHAPER: Oh, yeah, in fact Charlie Bond wrote me a note in the book. We just corresponded for the first time this past spring. Last fall, this spring. Incidences he had would [?] bad maintenance. FRANK BORING: Well, we are not trying to make anybody look bad, but we are really trying to get a sense of we know that a lot of pilots that went there were never trained on a P-40. We know some of the mechanics weren't, but this is part of history. It's not your making [?] of them - they weren't trained on it. BILL SCHAPER: We were in a training school really, actually, the hard way though on the job I guess you'd call it. FRANK BORING: That's what I'm looking for. BILL SCHAPER: It was on the job the training, is what it was. FRANK BORING: What's the crew chief? How many had actually trained with before? BILL SCHAPER: I don't know. FRANK BORING: But it was a handful? BILL SCHAPER: Maybe 40% of them? Maybe less than that, I think the only one that had it was Mitchell Field, Mitchell and Selfridge at Detroit. I learned that after I got there. FRANK BORING: In terms of the training period, it went on ‘til Pearl Harbor? Do you recall? BILL SCHAPER: Pearl Harbor? Damn right I do. FRANK BORING: Tell us about the day. �BILL SCHAPER: It was on a Monday morning. I was checking out a P-40 and McClure ran up to me waving his arms. Shut it down, shut it down. I said “what's your problem?” - I thought maybe it had caught on fire. He said “they bombed Pearl Harbor.” I said “where the hell is Pearl Harbor?” The Navy knew, but I didn't know. FRANK BORING: What was your impression about you got a chance to talk to some of the guys and learn more about what was happening. What was your personal impression of what was going on? What do you recall? Once the guys starting talking about it and people were discussing what was happening what was your impression? BILL SCHAPER: I was told I think that we had a Japanese air base within a 100 miles across the hills there somewhere. It never bothered me. FRANK BORING: Where were you when the Flying Tigers first had their encounters? December the 20th, when they actually encountered airplanes over Kunming? BILL SCHAPER: I was in Kunming. I was on the field. FRANK BORING: Ok, then let's start off with you were in Rangoon. When did you move the Kunming? Do you remember? BILL SCHAPER: It would be in the fall of '41. Probably October, November. FRANK BORING: Do you remember arriving in Kunming? BILL SCHAPER: No. We flew in on a DC-3, I think. We had tools and equipment. FRANK BORING: Was the conditions there better than…? BILL SCHAPER: Yeah, much better, well… FRANK BORING: Could you describe them? �BILL SCHAPER: We lived at the hostel near the air field. We had 2 guys to the room and I think I recall we had rec room. It is so far back, man. FRANK BORING: Let's look at the work space. Where did you operate out of? For fixing the airplanes? BILL SCHAPER: Right on the field. I got a good picture of that I think. Did you ever see the Chinese that used to wash parts for us? FRANK BORING: Could you tell us about that? BILL SCHAPER: Well, we had… we picked up some Chinese helpers. I think they came from the States. We also used natives for minor duties, cleaning, stuff like that. FRANK BORING: Could you give us a description of? Did you know Pak On Lee? BILL SCHAPER: Yeah. FRANK BORING: Could you tell us about him? BILL SCHAPER: Not there I met him back at Ojai. He worked for CAMCO didn't he? FRANK BORING: Well, we are going to interview him too. BILL SCHAPER: Well, he's up in Washington isn't he? FRANK BORING: Can you try to give us an impression or describe to us what it was like inside the hanger or whatever it was. Did you say you had Chinese washing parts, you had... I mean I need to picture being there. Can you describe working on a P-40 and who was working on it and what they were doing, and the Chinese? BILL SCHAPER: It was all outdoors. I mean we did everything outside. That I recall. �FRANK BORING: Well, we are in Kunming now and the guys are still training in their airplanes, Pearl Harbor. BILL SCHAPER: No, I think most of the training was done in Toungoo. Except their tactical. See, I have nothing to do plan. The pilots could tell you more about that. FRANK BORING: We're looking for I guess when a pilot came down and landed his plane. BILL SCHAPER: The crew chief took over. After a pilot came down and landed, the crew chief took over. If there was a major problem then he would push it back into the main hanger. That's where we came in. FRANK BORING: And what happened? BILL SCHAPER: It was Overly, myself, Carter I don't remember - 4 or 5 other guys. FRANK BORING: Traditionally what would happen? The airplane has now landed, crew chief takes over, they bring it over to the hanger. Now what happens? BILL SCHAPER: Fix it that's all. That's it, just work. When you take your car to a garage what do you get? FRANK BORING: I guess what I'm looking for more specifically though is, let's say that you come back from battle, it’s got bullet holes in it or something like that. BILL SCHAPER: Not in Kunming, that's later after Rangoon. If you're talking about the period of time from maybe Oct. thru Dec. As I recall the first time we had combat was in Kunming wasn't it? FRANK BORING: Dec. 20th BILL SCHAPER: When Cokey Hoffman got it. �FRANK BORING: Well, let's go beyond that then. Where were you after that? Where were you after Kunming? BILL SCHAPER: I know I was ferried down to Rangoon and back up to Kunming, different areas - Chungking, Kweilin, as I recall. FRANK BORING: Were you on the airfield when there were battles going on? BILL SCHAPER: Frequently. FRANK BORING: Can you describe to us what that was like? BILL SCHAPER: Run and hide, that's all. Most of our action was away from the field. The only time I can recall the [?] being bombed bad was either Rangoon or Kweilin. FRANK BORING: Let's talk about… you had mentioned that when an airplane arrived after battle, there was crew chief took over and then it was brought in to hanger or the outside area. Let's take an example. Try to remember an example of airplane that got shot up and just describe to us... BILL SCHAPER: Well, suppose the… if the engine thru a rod or begin to be totally incapacitated they brought in the hanger for an engine change ... if we had one. That's where I took over. FRANK BORING: What other kinds of examples do you have, change engines sometimes, what other kinds of things happened? BILL SCHAPER: I can tell you of an incidence, I don't know where the hell it was but it was out of Kunming we had couple of airplanes, one was in a rice paddy somewhere up in the bushes and it was colder than hell and I think it was Carter, myself we took a jeep to salvage the parts that we could carry out. And it was raining and cold. And we try to get a fire started and we had a bunch of Chinese auxiliary people �around us. So I reached… we got a little fire going… and I reached in the back and got an oxygen bottle and turned the oxygen on and the coolies couldn't figure out what the hell was coming out of the bottle but pretty soon we had a pretty good blaze going. FRANK BORING: You get a chance to salvage anything out of that airplane? BILL SCHAPER: Whatever we could carry off, probably a radio, mag needles, carburetor? Whatever was salvageable…generator… FRANK BORING: Let's go to Rangoon - the fall of Rangoon. What do you recall about the last days of fall of Rangoon? BILL SCHAPER: Want to get my diary? FRANK BORING: You have diary? BILL SCHAPER: Yeah, I kept one. I could use it for notes. FRANK BORING: Yeah, we'd like to look at that later, but do you recall off the top of your head? BILL SCHAPER: No, no it’s just a lot of hard work that's all. I can recall disbursing the airplanes. We'd go down a dirt road there would be a pole here and a pole here and you have to taxi like zig zag to take it off the field.? And those of us in the Air Force? Air Corp we never taxied an airplane before in our life. That was a pilot's job but over there everybody did it. When you talk about the nose of a Cadillac as long that P-40 nose is about 14 feet, I think. I mean you couldn't see over the top. FRANK BORING: From what I understand it was a very chaotic time. The fall of Rangoon. They let out the lunatics, the zoos… BILL SCHAPER: Yeah, you're right. We were out at the field at Rangoon when they burned the docks and I remember the kooks running up and down �the highway. You see we were out of town. What the hell was the name of that and we were told by the guy that own the big department store [?] go in, take whatever you want, go get it and carry it out, and we did. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Schaper_Bill_1991-04-23_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schaper, Wilfred E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Bill Schaper interview (video and transcript, 2 of 4), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Bill Schaper by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Bill Schaper was Crew Chief for the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 1st Squadron "Adam and Eves." He joined the AVG in 1941 after serving in the US Army as a Staff Sergeant in the 77th Pursuit Squadron. It was his responsibility to maintain the aircrafts. In this tape, Schaper discusses describes his first impressions of Rangoon and Toungoo, in addition to the effect the news of Pearl Harbor had on the AVG. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9868e509d3643277ab54c065fae44541.mp4 bb3329d557c30d63191fe8f44b5c1dbe https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8c2ad6cd67faa949bb15e0d406728d9e.pdf c77c0193381afb9f21cf2039596a6827 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Wilfred “Bill” Schaper Date of Interview: 04-23-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] BILL SCHAPER: When Chennault asked me to take the convoy to Kunming whatever we could salvage out of Rangoon. I had a British driver with me and they gave us that, you saw that map I had, that was it. We were told to go a certain direction to avoid being ambushed. I don't know how long it took, it must have taken a week to get up there. That's the movies I got there, I took some pictures. Switch backs. FRANK BORING: Describe to us the roads and the conditions. Why don't you talk about the plane, okay? BILL SCHAPER: What, the Stinson 105? FRANK BORING: Yeah. BILL SCHAPER: I took that plane up. FRANK BORING: We don't know what plane that is. BILL SCHAPER: When we left Rangoon I had a Stinson 105 on the back of my truck. And we got it up to Kunming and after Kunming I ditched it in the woods. Figure that we'd get it flying. But in the meantime I got transferred to Kweilin or moved around and I lost it there. �Somebody else took it over. I heard later that from the Allison representative that they had it flying and they were using it locally. FRANK BORING: Could you describe again how you got the plane in the truck because we didn't have the tape on then with the bolts falling out in the back. BILL SCHAPER: The Stinson 105 belonged to the premiere of Burma, name of Usaw. And I figured well, everybody is salvaging sewing machines, guns, ammunition, bolts of cloth, I'd take the airplane and could make a buck. I put the airplane… the airplane fit on the back of the International. I had with a board sticking out the back to hold the tail skin and I towed a jeep. I don't remember how long it took to get up there but a week or ten days probably. FRANK BORING: What were the conditions of the Burma Road? Can you describe for us what the Burma Road was like? BILL SCHAPER: Lock could tell you more about that, Bob Locke. But going up the Burma Road to get to the north end of Burma over the mountains was a lot of switch backs, I know because I was towing a jeep I had to forward and back at least 6 times to get around a curve. I mean they were tight. Nothing like you got here, these are easy. One time McClure came late to camp one night and I said where the hell you been, Mac? I lost a generator, well how you'd get the generator fixed. This is a true story now, he said well, there was a bunch of Limey's camped out for tea down at the river and the trucks were parked up on the road so I took one off their truck and put it on mine. McClure, you'll meet McClure over the 4th of July probably. When Rangoon was being bombed those of us out at the airfield all had a jeep and a tommy gun. We were invited by the guy that own a big department store that receipt I have there and he said take whatever you want. He gave some of the pilots the keys to the �wine cellar and the liquor store. Oh, I know I had about 4 cases of dry sack. I got that as far as Chungking I think. Yeah. FRANK BORING: Can you described somewhat the [?] at that time? I mean you're going down the streets with a jeep and a tommy gun? BILL SCHAPER: I know one thing - we have a jeep race around there until 2 in the morning sometimes. Did anybody else tell you that, too? No? You ever been to Rangoon? FRANK BORING: No, I've never been to Rangoon. BILL SCHAPER: Well, it’s a big pagoda gold plated on the middle of town. We'd go down there and run around. That's about it. That was a circus before we got blown out there. FRANK BORING: From Rangoon where did you go next? BILL SCHAPER: I took the convoy from Rangoon to Chungking. FRANK BORING: When did you finally arrive in Chungking? BILL SCHAPER: There was a guy up there he was our Provost Marshall. What the hell was his name? Those of us that had come up with the convoy had a bunch of what we called loot. And he was confiscating everything we could [?]. We had, I had this plane, but about 3 days before we got to Kunming we decided to put everything on a truck and then hid the truck. We were scavengers, first class. Wouldn't you know that damn truck burned up? FRANK BORING: Who was this Provost Marshall? BILL SCHAPER: I... give me the rooster I could look at it. What the hell was his name? McCarty, no it was an Irish name. He was one of Chennault's staff with John Williams. �FRANK BORING: Greenlaw? BILL SCHAPER: No, it was Greenlaw, Williams, Chennault, I don't know. Oh, he got into so many goddamn fights up there you couldn't believe it. He was a pain in the ass. I never knew him personally, but those other guys had personal contact with him. FRANK BORING: Did you have any contacts with Harvey or Olga? BILL SCHAPER: No. You'd have to talk to Boyington, but he's dead. He was shacked up with her I think. So I've been told. FRANK BORING: Tell us about Bob Locke and maybe about his leopard kitten. BILL SCHAPER: Oh, he could tell you more about that. FRANK BORING: Oh, yeah, he has. BILL SCHAPER: He went over as a prop man. Bob Locke went over as a prop man and he was shuttling supplies back and forth and he picked up this leopard. I was quite surprised when he came up with that. FRANK BORING: Did you have any contact with the leopard at all? BILL SCHAPER: No. We got some pictures of him somewhere. FRANK BORING: Let's go to Chungking now. What were your duties there basically the same as before. BILL SCHAPER: Yeah. Maintenance. We got there it was pretty well blown up. I don't know how long we stayed here. A week maybe. FRANK BORING: Then from there where did you go? �BILL SCHAPER: Back to Kunming I think. From Chungking to Kunming stayed there a while and went to Kweilin. That's when I think after Kweilin is when the Air Force came in. That was the end. FRANK BORING: Did you witness first hand any of the bombing of the Chinese cities? BILL SCHAPER: Kunming, yeah. We get into Kunming. FRANK BORING: That would be good if you could tell us anything about the city damage, description of the bombing. BILL SCHAPER: In Kunming I can recall an incidence or two where they would pick up bodies and throw them in the back of a flatbed like cord wood and take them out and bury them. FRANK BORING: What kind of effect did that have on you? BILL SCHAPER: Don't bother me. FRANK BORING: Did you, I mean, what effect did it have, knowledge that the Chinese were pretty much defenseless at this time. The Japanese just bombing them. Did you have any did you feel anything about the Japanese? BILL SCHAPER: No. Probably pissed off, but other than that, I mean, what the hell at that time you… FRANK BORING: The first time AVG went into combat was in December of 1941. Do you recall that first day when they came back after shooting down the airplanes, the bombers in Kunming? BILL SCHAPER: Yeah, that was. I guess you call it a day of joy. I guess it renewed a confidence in a lot of people. After that first shoot up. �FRANK BORING: Do you remember when the planes first came in I mean there was some anticipation because you knew they were going up into battle. BILL SCHAPER: I don't recall. FRANK BORING: OK. Do you remember a man they called Herman the German. BILL SCHAPER: Very well! Gerhard Neumann was a very good friend of mine. He came to work with me in Kunming in the heavy maintenance because he was a graduate engineer of the best schools in Germany. He had a garage in Kunming. And he told me the history. He had his mother, his wife and a Pekinese dog. Come to think of it I don't know where the hell they lived in Kunming. But he and I became very well acquainted. FRANK BORING: How did he come to the AVG? BILL SCHAPER: He was an aeronautical engineer from Germany who immigrated, his parents, his dad died in a concentration camp they went Israel, Israel they immigrated to China. His wife, the Pekinese dog and his mother and Gerhard. I got a lot of pictures… quite a few pictures him and the dog and his mother. In fact he would appreciate a copy if they’re still good. FRANK BORING: What was the effect of having, I mean you are all Americans there. What was the effect of having a German come in and start working. BILL SCHAPER: We were not at war with Germany yet. This? Pearl Harbor. He was the hardest working guy I ever worked for. Worked with. FRANK BORING: What were you saying about [?] Individuals in the AVG that you became good friends with? �BILL SCHAPER: Gerhard Neumann was one. Johnny Carter, I don't know what the hell happened to him. Overly. FRANK BORING: You were talking about that expression that Gerhard used about divorce… We were up in Chungking I think, he said Bill, he introduced me to Chinese cooking by the way. We're telling about Gerhard Neumann, he spoke fluent Chinese, he said Bill, I want to tell you something, he had a problem with his I didn't know what the reason was, he got a Chinese divorce, he said I'm the only German Jew with a Chinese divorce. Things that you remember, you know. BILL SCHAPER: FRANK BORING: Yeah. BILL SCHAPER: I got quite a few picture of him in that can there. FRANK BORING: Come back to Sandell. Did you get to know him? BILL SCHAPER: No, we was quite aloof. He was my C.O. FRANK BORING: Talk about that and use his name. BILL SCHAPER: We talk about Sandell. We never had any personal contacts because he was my C.O. and the last time I saw him was in Rangoon when he climbed in that P-40 and never came back. FRANK BORING: How did you feel, when a guy gets into an airplane like that and you basically put it together… was there some kind of a feeling? BILL SCHAPER: None. Remorse? FRANK BORING: Not so much remorse but just responsibility. BILL SCHAPER: No. I put enough planes together that I got compliments from most of the pilots, but he had that, I'm only going my heresy, but he had �the problem with the problem he had in Rangoon he had once before and survived. Not being a pilot I don't know, you know. FRANK BORING: How did you feel about the pilots? How did they feel about you? Did you get along with them all? BILL SCHAPER: I got along with everybody. Yeah. FRANK BORING: Did you associated with pilots or did you… BILL SCHAPER: Oh, yeah, we mingled all together. We had basketball, baseball games between us. And Pete Atkinson who got killed over there was a good personal friend of mine. He was my engineering officer and he was quite a basketball player. I had a little bit… we put a team together. I think, no, he wasn't with us. Up in Chungking it was. It was an Olympic team against a bunch of crews, us dummies you know. They wiped our ass pretty good. FRANK BORING: Can you describe for us the difference between life in the military and life in the AVG? BILL SCHAPER: The difference between in the military and after we got to Toungoo, rank didn't mean anything. We were all equal. It was quite a surprise for me and some people I think might have taken advantage of it. But, myself, we just common laborers, common people, you know? We were all civilians in fact. FRANK BORING: What about discipline, showing up to work on time and all that kind of stuff? BILL SCHAPER: I never had a problem with discipline, myself. There were a few incidences where we had some guys that couldn't handle it--booze. And I think when Chennault got wind of that he sent them home -a couple of them. That was in Toungoo, that was quite a surprise. I was with the second group that came over, the largest group on the �Jaegersfontein. We had 2 or 3 groups come over later. Second and third group. But some of those guys were kooky. FRANK BORING: You did make some friends while you were there. Was there anybody that got shot down or died that had a particular effect on you? BILL SCHAPER: Pete Atkinson. FRANK BORING: Can you tell us a little bit about that? BILL SCHAPER: Well, it was on a Sunday morning I think it was. I was working that morning when Pete took off and he buzzed Toungoo area and he split the airplane in half. He went out at the bottom. I think, that's what I've been told. It was confirmed because I went over and picked him up. I picked up the remains of the airplane. It is so many years back you forget you known. FRANK BORING: Are there any particular incidents that stick out from that particular period of time? Anything that incidents, or people. What do you remember the most? BILL SCHAPER: In Toungoo? FRANK BORING: Anytime in AVG. BILL SCHAPER: A lot of hard work. What I remember the most was just work dawn to dark every day. FRANK BORING: Do you consider that a good period of your life? BILL SCHAPER: Enjoyed it, yeah. Do you think those kids in Arabia had fun, shit they don't know nothing. They were only gone what 6 months. FRANK BORING: How long were you actually out there? �BILL SCHAPER: I was the last to leave whenever we left. I volunteered for the next 2 weeks then myself and a couple of others we got a ride to on a DC3 to Calcutta. That was an experience. You could get a house boy there for 1 rupee a day which was 26 cents I think. We stayed in Calcutta a week. I was debating whether to go work CNAC. I had offers to go to work for CNAC at the time. All kinds of Letters and some of the fellows like Rossi and those went. But I elected to go home. I didn't want to go back into the military. So I hitchhiked by air transport across India to Karachi then I caught the… we had a ticket on the Mariposa. We had to pay our own way back. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Schaper_Bill_1991-04-23_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schaper, Wilfred E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Bill Schaper interview (video and transcript, 3 of 4), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Bill Schaper by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Bill Schaper was Crew Chief for the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 1st Squadron "Adam and Eves." He joined the AVG in 1941 after serving in the US Army as a Staff Sergeant in the 77th Pursuit Squadron. It was his responsibility to maintain the aircrafts. In this tape, Schaper discusses describes the conditions of the Burma Road and his experience witnessing the bombing of Kunming, in addition to the differences between life in the military and the AVG. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/98826c8a8d753d406d2f9bfbbe2de721.mp4 7f84a0ec9dd4a6ed95dd0b9958feda01 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/21d1103bceb8e53cd3ba12fa583eb562.pdf 5108283b6193b57fbb4c265808ef532b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Wilfred “Bill” Schaper Date of Interview: 04-23-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: Tell us about the last days of the AVG before they asked you about the 2 weeks. What was morale like, what were you thinking about at that time? BILL SCHAPER: I never had a problem with morale, not myself. I get along with them all. When they asked for volunteers to stay another two weeks I volunteered. Chennault said he see that we got back, but you were on your own at that time. FRANK BORING: What was your impression of Chennault? BILL SCHAPER: I had no personal contact with him. Except to listen to him talk once in a while. You had to admire the old man, he was gutsy. FRANK BORING: Do you feel in any way that you were promised passage back and you didn't get that. BILL SCHAPER: That didn't bother me. FRANK BORING: Let me ask you what did you do after you got to India? You said you were… BILL SCHAPER: We caught a DC3 out of Kunming. It was an air transport it might have been CNAC I don't remember and got to Calcutta, I think I �stayed in Calcutta a week That film that I have I sent it was raw film at the time not processed I found out thru Kodak that I could send that to Bombay and pick it up in Bombay when I got to Bombay which was 2 weeks down the road. That's what I did. And when I got to Karachi, I got on board the Mariposa, went to Bombay, I went to the Kodak and the film was ready. We went to Cape Town, I think we were in Cape Town, one day, two days and then a week later in New York. FRANK BORING: How did it feel to be home? BILL SCHAPER: Let me tell you. When you see the Statute of Liberty for the first time it brings tears to your eyes after a year, year and a half. Later on I could recall that watching these people with no patriotism at all. They had no idea what a war was. I'm talking about civilians over here. It burned my ass believe me. FRANK BORING: How did people react to you being in the AVG when you got back? BILL SCHAPER: They gave us a hero’s welcome, we didn't have ticker tape parade. I got back, I was greeted in New York by Bob Neal he was already signed to fly with American Overseas which later became American Airlines. He offered me a job as a flight engineer on the boats between New York and England. I said no I'll take my chances and I went to work for Allison. Opportunity was a good word for Pratt & Whitney, right? Lockheed, but being from Chicago I went to Indianapolis and about that time we got married 1942. FRANK BORING: How did you react to the newspapers? BILL SCHAPER: They were always on your back. Guest appearances here and there, selling war bonds, you know. After about 2 weeks of that I went to work. �FRANK BORING: To wrap everything up I sort of like you to look back a bit. What do you feel you personally accomplished during that period of time? BILL SCHAPER: I saved a few bucks. Nothing, it was just a job as far as I was concerned. I don't go gun ho over heroics and all that. FRANK BORING: Let me ask you in a difference context, now that you are at this point in your life and you been to the [?] reunions and you've read the books whatnots and maybe even seen the John Wayne movie whatever. Where do you think personally AVG fits into all this? BILL SCHAPER: I've been told the AVG fits a piece of history - that's all. FRANK BORING: How do you personally react to that? BILL SCHAPER: I don't have any reaction for it either one way or the other. It just happened that's all. No difference than these kids in Saudi Arabia. It was an experience and you live through it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Schaper_Bill_1991-04-23_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Schaper, Wilfred E. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-23 Title A name given to the resource Bill Schaper interview (video and transcript, 4 of 4), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Bill Schaper by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Bill Schaper was Crew Chief for the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 1st Squadron "Adam and Eves." He joined the AVG in 1941 after serving in the US Army as a Staff Sergeant in the 77th Pursuit Squadron. It was his responsibility to maintain the aircrafts. In this tape, Schaper discusses discusses the last days of the AVG and his experience returning to the United States along with the hero's welcome they received. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09bfceb310740ec285d2344a5db1c441.mp4 ea7763eda055bac48f57255be435a3ae https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/315c78284e19ae475939877e4d48866d.pdf 6efeea2dda9b6e29af4b584648dd7ab8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Cheng Yuan Lee Date of Interview: 03-20-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: What was your background before AVG? CHENG YUAN LEE: When I was seventeen years old, I was a second year in University. I always wanted to become an airman or a pilot, so I joined the Chinese Air Force. The Chinese Air Force sent me to the Communications School and I become radio technician, graduated 1936. The second year, 1937, five of us Chinese Air Force Officers, one Captain, three First Lieutenants and I'm Second Lieutenant, we received our orders to meet a very important person. We went to Shanghai, that's the first time we met General Chennault and since then five of us worked with him almost until end of the war. Today, Colonel Shu, he is interpreter, he is in the States and here in Taiwan, I'm the only one. The other three they sacrificed for the country. FRANK BORING: You studied as a Communications Officer, if you could explain in more detail what you learned during that period of time. Once again, before you met Chennault. CHENG YUAN LEE: Actually after I graduated from the communications school, I had only a few months of experience with the Chinese Air Force. To tell you the truth I don't even quite know exactly what kind of equipment we had in the Air Force, but when General Chennault came, we set up the advisory office. He was our advisor then. Then �he began to talk to all of us and he told us that his being in China was trying to help the Chinese Air Force to build up the combat capability. Then he told me he said "Henry, the most important thing for the Air Force today is to have a sound air defense system." At that time really true I don't even know what air defense system is. Then he said - he gave me an idea. Once we see the group of communication officers and men to help, we beginning to look what kind of equipment we have in the Air Force and what kind of equipment the whole country had. Tell the truth, those days we have very little equipment. We had very few radio stations and then we had very good crank telephone. Now some of the city and village equipped with telephone, quite few. A few of the village - maybe one village have only one crank telephone, so he gave us an idea. He said if we wanted to defend our Air Force the very first thing we have to have good information, accurate information. Then we could decide to tell our fighters, our pilots how to defend the invading enemy. So after about one week, we searched all over the places in the whole country and we got a little idea of what we had. Then General Chennault and a few of us started trying to sketch out what actually he wants. Then we come up first air defense net and those days we called it "The Spider's Web" with a radio station as the center and with all the villages and towns around it - was a circle about 150 kilometers. Some maybe 70 kilometers to the center, some maybe 150. Exactly looked like a spider's web. When the people in the village and the city, see the aircraft or heard the sound of the aircraft, they used the crank telephone and called in to the radio station to report. If they see the aircraft they would say "Heavy Aircraft", in those days they don't know whether it's a fighter, a bomber or what, but if they see a bigger aircraft they say "heavy aircraft" and they see a single engine one they say "lighter aircraft" then they tell us how many, about how high and that's what we get at the beginning. And lots of times when the aircraft above the clouds, they just say "I hear aircraft noise but that's all." Then when we collect all this information, the radio station would broadcast - it was open broadcast so the other net would hear and that's the way we passed �the air alert system. Then the second system we worked on had a very large net and we put up a flag pole. On the flag pole we usually had the first flag is heavy or light aircraft, the second flag would indicate the number of aircraft, and the third was the altitude of all the aircraft. When the first initial information came, we set that pole on the city on the map then every five minutes an arrow on the map. It indicated the aircraft goes direction. Then on the map two arrows, the gap of two arrows it tells you how fast the aircraft are. If the two arrows are very close we know that's slow aircraft and if the gap is very wide, we know that's a fast aircraft. That's the second part of the defense net. Then third is when we decide to have the fighters take off. At the beginning we draw a circle of 150 kilometers from the center. When the enemy reach 150 kilometers we would have all the aircraft start their engines. Then when the aircraft approach about 100 kilometer to the center, then that's an order to take off. At the same time the city and the town will have air raid ball and those days we called - the Chinese call Jing bow. Then we have three ball to indicate the stage of the raid. When the first ball goes up people know the aircraft is about 150 kilometer from us, when the second ball goes up they hear the aircraft take off and also they know that the enemy is closing in, when three ball comes up, usually the people call red ball - red hot - everybody runs like anything to get away from their home or work or whatever, there's no protection. Now consists of those three parts: the recording system, the plotting system and the Jing bow system, the air raid system, put together that's the prototype of first world air defense system. And this is how we would [?] and for about two weeks we figured out and actually when the war starts it works beautiful. It surprised the Japanese, because the first raid the Japanese had six bombers to bomb Nanking, our airfield at Nanking. Four were shot down right in Nanking out of the six and it sure surprised the Japanese. They thought the Chinese were very weak. They don't think that we have any capability to be able to fight them. But it surprised them the first raid at least four were shot down. Now believe the other two were injured also. So the next Japanese worry is they gonna find out how the Chinese �operate so effectively and this is involved - I got in almost bombed. General Chennault, when he talked to the Chinese Air Force, (General Chu) and a group of high ranking officers, the very first meeting they had everybody know the possibility of Japanese invasion. So they decide to purchase some radio equipment for the aircraft and those days the very first group of communication equipment we received was 60 sets of (Phillip) airborne equipment. Then Colonel Chennault told me, he said "Henry, get as many people as you could and do the fastest job as you can to install all those equipment on the aircraft." And those days we have the Hawk II, Hawk III and Boeing P-12. The most of the Chinese Air Force are Hawk II and Hawk III with very few P-12. Then we had only 60 radio sets, not enough for all the aircraft, so General Chennault told me, he said "Henry, install one radio set in every 3 aircraft." Those days the formation flight for fighters and bombers were all in flights of three, so we would have one radio set in each flight, so that the leader could receive the combat instructions. We worked day and night. A group of us about 125 people, we worked day and night and we completed within one month. We had them all operating very effectively and at the same time General Chennault told me to install a portable transmitter in one of our station wagons. In those days the Chinese Air Force only had two station wagons, so we installed it in one first and then later on we got a second one. Then General Chennault told me, he said "Henry, you got my idea, now you go look for your own site. Where you think is the best site for the transmitter. It's a [?] just find one." So I made a surveillance around Nanking and actually I set up five antenna in five different places. The first antenna I installed on Purple Gold Mountain, which is I think the west side of Nanking, it's been so long now I forgot the location. Then I found two huge rocks, I set up the antenna on the rock. The very first raid, the Japanese - six bombers came in and General Chennault gave me the order through the telephone and I translated into Chinese to tell our fighters how high they should go and which direction they should go and I tell you it really surprised me that first raid. All our fighters got on the bombers and four were shot �down out of six. The Japanese were very surprised. How come the Chinese are so effective? And they want to know how the fighters be able to jump on the bombers as soon as they come into the circle of Nanking. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Lee_CY_1991-03-20_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Cheng Yuan "Henry Lee" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-20 Title A name given to the resource C. Y. "Henry" Lee interview (video and transcript, 1 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of C.Y. "Henry" Lee by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Lee was a Chinese Air Force Communications Officer who worked for Col. Chennault as his personal radioman before the AVG officially formed. Lee eventually joined a group of Chinese flight cadets being instructed by Captain Adair in Kunming, and then traveled to the United States for additional flight training. In this tape, Lee discusses his background before joining the AVG and his work as a Communications Officer for the Chinese Air Force. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d2b3a52fd3da665f7b3c924d9de2549.mp4 88fc241da28c9a55a7f349252fa01b96 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e73c957abd3d6f827dde0eb08362bbb.pdf 96cdc9897b467d506a469c53931b0c1f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Cheng Yuan Lee Date of Interview: 03-20-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: Where did you learn to speak English? CHENG YUAN LEE: I learned my English in school (break) FRANK BORING: Where did you learn to speak English? CHENG YUAN LEE: I learned English in school and University. During the time I was seventeen years old, I always dreamed and wanted to become in the Air Force, so that year I went into Chinese Air Force and they sent me to the communications school. Although I wanted to be a pilot but they sent me to communications school. After training, the next year I was commissioned as Sub-Lieutenant. FRANK BORING: The reason why I learned English - like that. CHENG YUAN LEE: When I was seventeen years old, I joined the Chinese Air Force. They sent me to the Communications School and English is a part of our class because we had to speak over the radio by English and we also sent message by English and this is a part of our training. FRANK BORING: You've mentioned about Nanking and the spiders net around Nanking. Now this was somewhere around 1937. When Chennault first came there he had to work with whatever was in the Chinese �Air Force at that time, were you around when the Jouett, the American Jouett mission came through, or the Italians, the Russians or any of that? CHENG YUAN LEE: Actually we had five advisors. Now Jouett and all of them in Hong Chow, the flying school. Every now and then they came up to Nanking. For a short period of time, General Chennault and us went to Hong Chow also, but most of our time we were all in Nanking. FRANK BORING: Were you familiar with any of the other missions that came out to work with the Chinese Air Force, the Italians, the Russians, any of those groups? CHENG YUAN LEE: We had met many of them, but to tell you the truth when I was about sixty years old I had meningitis. My memory is pretty poor unless a lot of article I read all the times, otherwise a lot of the people's names and their face I have almost forgotten. FRANK BORING: Well let's stay in Nanking then. After the bombings of Nanking, did you stay in Nanking in '37 - ‘38? If you could continue about the story of Nanking. CHENG YUAN LEE: After the first air raid, the Japanese was very surprised at the Chinese combat capability and especially they were very worried about our defense intelligence system, so they want to know how we got the information of them and how accurate information we use. Then the second raid. After the second raid General Chennault told me, he said "Henry, you cannot go back to that same spot again. The Japanese might come in and get you." It's true. The third time six fighters were coming after me and I think the Japanese spy system must have been very effective - how they spot me on top of the mountain. They come in and strafe me and as I told you, I had the station wagon right in between the two huge rocks, so I just running around that big rock. They did not get me nor my equipment and after that raid General Chennault told me, �he said "Henry, you cannot go back to that place again. They're gonna have dive bomber on you." So the next I went to a different site and then I changed the site all the time. They never got me. And this is the first stage of the Japanese air raid. Pretty soon they coming, not only bomber but fighters and then we were kind of defeated because they had the super fighters. They have better maneuvering, better speed and so gradually, gradually we lost the battle. This convinced General Chennault that he must obtain some better aircraft from the United States. So he went back to States and tried many time. Often times he came back and he said "Well, Henry I bumped into wall." He failed many times. Finally we got the 100 P-40's - so called 100 - actually we be able to put together no more than 50 and those we get from the British Air Force, at Rangoon we put them together. FRANK BORING: Okay we're gonna talk about that in more detail later. Could you tell us about what happened after the Japanese had pretty much eliminated the Chinese Air Force because they had superior planes at that time. Did you have to leave Nanking - is this the period of time called "The Rape of Nanking?" CHENG YUAN LEE: We withdraw from Nanking - I have to think about it because I really have poor memory. FRANK BORING: You're doing very well. There was a period… CHENG YUAN LEE: We already left. (break) CHENG YUAN LEE: Then as time goes on, we beginning lose the battle. Day by day we have suffered more and more heavy losses of our fighters. General Chennault met every flight that comes in after the raid and then we all sit down together to hear their story to learn what their difficulties and we trying to solve all the problems. I believe one tactic that General Chennault invented was two and two formation �and those days, at the beginning we call the scissors tactic. As we have learned from the combat pilots, they told General Chennault that the flight of three when they get into combat, the wing man is always kind of tied up. If one be able to maneuver freely then the other one is kind of have his eye or hands tied up. (break) FRANK BORING: So the pilots are saying this is what happened and it all came out. CHENG YUAN LEE: After every battle, the General would sit down and talk to everyone and this is how the scissors tactics was amended. He then after quite some time of studying and talking to the pilots, he finally come up with a solution, to have the fighters take off two and two, instead of three and also maintain information two and two. In those days we call it the scissors tactics. If the right two is attacked by enemy, the left two would turn around and head on to the enemy. If the left two was attacked by enemy, the right two would turn around head on the enemy. If both are attacked by the enemy, then both turn around and head on to the enemy. It really protected our fighters a lot because those days the Japanese have the superior aircraft and this way it really cut our losses to much lower than they were. Now I believe this two system - the first is a spider web system and the second we call scissors system. Even today, although much improved, but still all over the world use this two system as main part of air defense system. FRANK BORING: Could you tell us about the last days of Nanking, especially how the airplanes were slowly being dwindled - you're losing more and more and how you had to escape? CHENG YUAN LEE: General Chennault was very worried about we losing all our fighters and about 2 to 3 months before we lost Nanking, all our Air Force had moved westward towards Hankow and in those days we have only about half of Air Force left over, so he went back to States. He's trying to help the Chinese Air Force to purchase some new aircraft. But often he comes back and he says "Henry, I'm so �sorry I have bumped into wall." And finally we got the P-40's. At that time I think we have almost lost the big portion of our air strength and in a few months we have almost no capability to defend our cities. Then from Hankow we withdraw to Chunking. Then soon we got the word that we will have the P-40's. Now before the P-40's came to China, we had a few - the prototype of the P-40. You call it the P-36. They are fixed landing gear. The prototype of P-40. Those P-36 came in about one squadron and we had two squadron pilots trained for the P-36 and that time General Chennault told me, he said "Henry, I want you to be a pilot because I like you that you are so patriotic and brave because during air raid everybody run away for air raid and you stay on the job. So I want you to be a pilot." And this is how I get into flying. FRANK BORING: When did you first hear and what was your reaction to the fall of Nanking? CHENG YUAN LEE: Nanking falls after Shanghai fallen. The Japanese move into Nanking. They sure did a mass killing. They often - not only occasional once or twice - they often gave commands to people to dig a hole, a huge hole, and then said to the people, now you all jump in. The people jump in then they have other people come in to fill in with the dirt on the people. They just buried them alive. The Japanese did that many places in Nanking. They sure had hurt the Chinese people. So far of the ones I know, my age, very few people can forget what the Japanese have done to us. They killing our people by thousands and thousands. Some people in Nanking we know have told us that they are the few that survived and they said more than 2/3 of the people in the city either buried, shelled, or wounded. And this is what the Japanese had done to our people in Nanking. FRANK BORING: What was your reaction personally and what did you observe Chennault's reaction to be when you got the news about Shanghai and Nanking? �CHENG YUAN LEE: Really true. Two United States military Generals I respect very much. One is General Chennault and second one is General MacArthur. They really loved the people they helped. They loved the people like their own son and daughter. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Lee_CY_1991-03-20_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Cheng Yuan "Henry Lee" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-20 Title A name given to the resource C. Y. "Henry" Lee interview (video and transcript, 2 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of C.Y. "Henry" Lee by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Lee was a Chinese Air Force Communications Officer who worked for Col. Chennault as his personal radioman before the AVG officially formed. Lee eventually joined a group of Chinese flight cadets being instructed by Captain Adair in Kunming, and then traveled to the United States for additional flight training. In this tape, Lee discusses how he learned to speak English while in communications school and his experiences working with General Chennault in Nanking after the bombings. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/012533c38cb4d8a87fbf4f5ba80dd9a7.mp4 ad2e7cdb5cfe20f72b9bedd89c420480 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a21a6ab540144d8bec5b0e37d13c87f.pdf 2c83ddda902f801135ef40cedd7b08cb PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Cheng Yuan Lee Date of Interview: 03-20-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: I'm gonna ask again, your reaction personally and if you observed Chennault's reaction when you heard about what happened in Nanking. CHENG YUAN LEE: General Chennault he's not a very talkative person. Lots of times he's quiet, but you can see that if he feels very sad and sorry, he will sit himself in the room by himself for quite some time and then sometimes even he lost his appetite. Now many times our Air Force was defeated, that's the way he acts and this is how in the beginning we learned how much he loved our people and in turn, I can tell you this, almost every one of the Chinese people - most of them are uneducated and when people mention General Chennault to them, they would say "Ting How" that means Number One. FRANK BORING: There's the rumor that has been talked about by many, many people. We asked the same question of Colonel P.Y. Hsu. (break) FRANK BORING: Just the last part about the Chinese people being uneducated - feel about General Chennault? CHENG YUAN LEE: Most of our people are not quite educated, but they all know General Chennault and if we mention it to them they will say "Ting How." �(break) CHENG YUAN LEE: Most of the Chinese people are not quite well-educated but however, they love General Chennault and if we mention it to them "Chen a De" they will say "Ting How." FRANK BORING: We asked this same question of P.Y. Hsu and I want your own personal experience. Did Claire Chennault ever fight in battle? CHENG YUAN LEE: No. (break) CHENG YUAN LEE: During the period of war while all of us Chinese were with General Chennault, he did some fine, but never he engaged in any combat. This is what I know and I think all five of us would say the same. FRANK BORING: I want to finish up Nanking. When you first heard about the atrocities that happened - the buried alive and you had personal friends there, what was your - internally, inside - what was your personal reaction to that? CHENG YUAN LEE: When first I heard the tragedy in Nanking - because we used to stay in Nanking for quite a while and we are thinking of our friends there and I tell you, it really hurts me. Before the war, I never hate anyone. But after I heard - and actually I saw the pictures, the movie and the pictures - it really hurts me. When I saw the pictures I had tears in my eyes because we were in Nanking almost two years - a little over two years. And then later on when I get married, my wife and I stayed in Nanking another year and we heard very often the native people told us how they suffered through, how they lost their dearest ones and some of the spots we actually walked over there and went over there and paid our respects to the dead ones. �FRANK BORING: After you left Nanking, where did you go and could you describe what you were doing at that time? CHENG YUAN LEE: Since our defense system been so effective, so General Chennault he never want me to go away from my job. To tell you the truth, for almost 2-1/2 years I hadn't had one day off from my work and he knew that and he had it written in his book the way of a fighter. I'm the one that always stay on job and this is how he wants me to be a pilot and this is how I get my wings in the United States. FRANK BORING: Now when you left Nanking, where did you go? CHENG YUAN LEE: Nanking - then we went to Hankow for about two months, then to Hengyang. Hengyang I stay there about 3 months, then went to Chunking. In those days our transportation was very bad, very poor and we almost have very little air transportation. So all the traveling I had to done by truck. That's probably the most effective transportation we had those days and that takes a long time. FRANK BORING: Can you describe that, the road and the traveling and all that? CHENG YUAN LEE: The transportation on China mainland we had very little railway transportation. From Hankow to Hengyang I drove by railway. Then from Hengyang to Chunking, we drove by truck and with a lot of equipment, four of us. It took us a month and a half to get to Chunking and I tell you, all the road is muddy road, with rock and it really - you cannot believe how we went through those holes and ditches. Now five of truck that we started from Hengyang and one we lost because the driver did not control the wheel enough, that he just went down the slope and this is the way almost the whole way to Chunking. We lost a lot of transportation and those days we are really poor and really suffer. Many days we just get cup of Mantou - what we call - it's like your bread. You bake them and we steam them. We just get a few Mantou and that's all on the way and we didn't have a single meal of a whole day. That was really tough and hardship and to tell you really truth, when I get to �Chunking, I have lice on me because of no bathing. This is how the Chinese people suffer during World War II - the beginning part. FRANK BORING: Once you got to Chunking, what were your responsibilities and what did you have to do? CHENG YUAN LEE: After I get to Chunking General Chennault was assigned to our cadet school, the flying cadet school in Kunming and as soon as he gets to Kunming he think of us. He says "I have P.Y. Hsu with me now, I must get Henry over." So about one week afterwards, General Cho, our Commanding Chief, told me, he said "Henry, you go to Kunming and Colonel Chennault wants you." So I went to Kunming and I was assigned in a communication truck again. I got a real good decent communication truck. That's the first time I had one - proper communication truck. The rest of time what I had was a station wagon and was all portable equipment. FRANK BORING: At this time, what were your responsibilities, what was the purpose of your being there with Chennault? CHENG YUAN LEE: The Kunming school was training the flying cadets. General Chennault was there as Chief Advisor to train the flying cadets and I'm just part of the training, the communication training. And after I get in Kunming for about less than half year, I get my flying jacket and I went into flying school. That's what he want me. Then I went to States. FRANK BORING: During this period of time there was an attempt by Chennault to train new Chinese pilots to fight against the Japanese. What are your impressions of the effectiveness of this training? Were people graduating? What was your opinion? CHENG YUAN LEE: Before I left Kunming for flying training, or before I went to Kunming, I was in [?] for about 4 months. Then as I mentioned it to you that we had maintained about one squadron of P-36. General Chennault had two squadrons, Chinese flying squadron �there and he was training the P-36 and I went to [?] to help them, the communication training for about 2 months. Then he went to Kunming and soon I went to Kunming. FRANK BORING: While you were at the training period, was that the same time Skip Adair was there? CHENG YUAN LEE: Adair, yes. He was our flying instructor. We went to flying school in Kunming and our primary training was in Yunnanyi, it's about 90 miles west of Kunming and we had five American advisors, we call them. We had about 30 Chinese pilot instructors and also have about five American instructors and Mr. Adair was one of them. Now I have poor memory, I don't quite remember all of them. But Mr. Adair, after I got back from States, I met him again and this is how he give me a picture. We were getting along very good and they been very good to me. FRANK BORING: While you were there was that also the period of time when they had the International Squadron, when they formed the International Squadron? CHENG YUAN LEE: No, the International Squadron they formed just before the AVG, but I already left China and went to United States for flying training. I know, but I never met them. FRANK BORING: While you were there in training, were the Japanese bombing at that time? CHENG YUAN LEE: I can tell you this now. I was in Yunnanyi for nearly half year. I only had about 15 hours of flying - that tells you how bad the Japanese raided us. They just continuously - a whole day often time - we get a tin basin bowl for wash and after we wash we went to the kitchen and we about half full bowl of rice. Then we set off and go to the suburb and we just sit there and watch the raid for a whole day, eating nothing but the rice. Now this is the way it was �during the period of time when I was in the school. Now that time we almost had no air capability to fight the Japanese. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Lee_CY_1991-03-20_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Cheng Yuan "Henry Lee" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-20 Title A name given to the resource C. Y. "Henry" Lee interview (video and transcript, 3 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of C.Y. "Henry" Lee by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Lee was a Chinese Air Force Communications Officer who worked for Col. Chennault as his personal radioman before the AVG officially formed. Lee eventually joined a group of Chinese flight cadets being instructed by Captain Adair in Kunming, and then traveled to the United States for additional flight training. In this tape, Lee describes his personal reaction to the tragedy in Nanking and his experience working with General Chennault at the training school in Kunming. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1489cddad5e0be87b2ed9e107a139d53.mp4 a2a255377e0f2263565f1f9a7f7df68a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3dea0f62fec6d6887d66bc82103c96ca.pdf 5148610256e9eceed6e744c5ecff81d7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Cheng Yuan Lee Date of Interview: 03-20-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] CHENG YUAN LEE: Now after I get back from States, I was for a very few months, about 3 months assigned to the Fourth Fighter Group, which is a station in Chunking, at first in Chentu and later on move into Chunking. During that period of time the Japanese sure bomb us very heavily. Often time they continuous bombing for 4 or 5 hours and the people just have to go away for a whole day because nobody knows when the Japanese will come in again. That was my very experience. I was in Chunking City and the air raid sound everybody called Jing bow - so we all went into the dugout, the hole - a big hole inside the mountain and I think in that dugout at least 4 to 5 thousand people were there. To tell you the truth, after the raid is over, which lasts almost about one hour, very few were surviving. I was one of them and I saw with my very own eyes and I had to crawl out of all the dead ones - over the bodies to get out. I was inside. Now lots of people - because when it gets more air they like to stay outside or nearby the dugout - instead of me, I go inside the dugout and the ones who by the entrance almost every one of them were killed. There's no way to running around because the Japanese continuous 4 or 5 hours in Chunking and Chentu. They had destroyed quite a lot of the buildings and city and all over the place. But even the airfield they bomb up. But I can tell you this, within half a day, mostly we work at night - we fill up the holes by dirt and rock and we use stone roller - 2 or 3 hundred people to pull the roller and roll over the dirt and the runway repaired again. The next day our aircraft take off again. That was �something that you should see, otherwise you don't believe it. How many people we use to pull those rollers, the stone rollers. The picture I show you even during the air raid, the Japanese were diving at us, how people were pushing the aircraft out of the parking line in order to save the aircraft and those were the pictures I took during the air raid. This is the hardship - the hard time we went through. FRANK BORING: We know why the AVG was eventually formed, but what we'd like from you is, from a Chinese perspective, you were the Chinese Air Force, you saw what was happening, you saw the bombing, you saw the fact that you couldn't even train that many cadets because it was constantly bombing the airfields and everything else, but if you could explain from your perspective the reasons for the formation of the AVG? CHENG YUAN LEE: General Chennault went to States trying to get aircraft for the Chinese Air Force but I think many times he just comes back with his head down and told us that he bump into wall. Finally, I believe either Dr. Soong or Dr. Kung got help from President Roosevelt's advisor - forgive me, I forgot his name. With his help that they be able to purchase 100 P-40's from the British Air Force. Actually those aircraft were being used by the British and probably the British was going to - send away or some way - but anyway they got the 100 P-40 and those days the Japanese were bomb us so often and continuously, we cannot help the aircraft to build up in any places in China. So this is how it gets into Rangoon with the British help. Then we had first I suppose one of our fighter group, the Third Fighter Group, pilot and mechanics went over there to put the aircraft together and have the Chinese pilots fly into China. Then the same time General Chennault had the AVG came and they went into Rangoon and they took over the aircraft from the Chinese pilots. I believe a lot of the AVG pilots they are from all over the service. Some from Army, some from Navy, some from Marines. (break) �FRANK BORING: We should talk about when you were in the States and letters you were getting from - anything you can recall about that? But at this time also, before he went to form the AVG, Madame Chiang Kaishek was brought in to evaluate the Chinese Air Force and then she eventually recommended with Chennault to form the AVG. Do you anything about that particular? CHENG YUAN LEE: I know about it but I was away in States then and when General Chennault trying to recruit the AVG, later on I learned - lots of them from all the services, Army, Navy, Marine and Air Force many of them they were in service. They request to retire from the service and join General Chennault. FRANK BORING: Let me interrupt you - while you were in the States in training, you said Chennault was writing you letters? Was he talking to you about the frustration of the problems he was having with forming the AVG? What kind of things did he say in his letters? CHENG YUAN LEE: He had mentioned several times to me that… (break) FRANK BORING: Who's he? CHENG YUAN LEE: General Chennault had mentioned several times after he came back from States trying to get aircraft. He get almost resist from all over the place and because he was true friends to President Chiang Kaishek and Madame Chiang Kai-shek, often a lot of American high official misunderstanding by him and this is how he fails almost every time until he actually got the 100 P-40. FRANK BORING: What was Madame Chiang Kai-shek's role at this time? CHENG YUAN LEE: To speak of the Chinese Air Force, at the beginning was formed in Nanking, President Chiang Kai-shek was the Chief of Aeronautical �Affairs Commission. Madame Chiang, she was a Secretary of the Commission and Colonel [?] he was full Colonel and he was Director of the Commission. Then we don't have Air Force headquarters. We call Aeronautical Affairs Commission. FRANK BORING: What was the role of this Commission? CHENG YUAN LEE: Well actually this was a small scale Air Force, that's all, but at the beginning President Chiang Kai-shek and Madame were so concerned about the Air Force and so often they came in and sat down to hold meetings and so forth. And this how General Chennault was selected. I believe it was by either the Madame or Dr. Soong. Then he came over and helped us. He is a true friend of China. Later on, I had the opportunity to be with President Chiang Kai-shek and also become aide to President Chiang Ching Kou and very often I heard from them too that during the time we need the most, he came in and helped us and that's true, that's very true. FRANK BORING: Once the - Madame Chiang Kai-shek as part of the Commission, went around to the various air bases to look at the Chinese Air Force. When did you become aware that they were going to bring in American pilots to join the Chinese Air Force? CHENG YUAN LEE: Before General Chennault came, the Chinese Air Force, we already had a few flying advisors at the flying cadet school and before I was assigned to him, [?] then I know nothing about the Americans until the first day I met Colonel Chennault. Then us five were so close to him, he almost every day told us the progressing and what's the next future plans and so forth. So since then, I know pretty well about General Chennault's activities. FRANK BORING: You heard about and did you have an opinion about the International Squadron that came before AVG? CHENG YUAN LEE: No, I had already gone to States. �FRANK BORING: But do you have an opinion about it - have you heard about it? CHENG YUAN LEE: I heard about it but I was in United States for flying training so I couldn't tell you much about it. FRANK BORING: If you could describe your relationship with Chennault - just in the early days especially. CHENG YUAN LEE: Well not only our two Presidents, President Chiang Kai-shek and Chiang Ching-kuo and Madame, Dr. Kung and Dr. Soong so appreciative of Colonel Chennault's help. The whole country I can tell you on the mainland those days, I should say about 1/3 of the people are illiterate. But if you tell him [?] they will tell you: Number One - Ding How. It's true. He treated the Chinese people like his own brothers and sisters and even the cooks, the drivers, were like his own family. Honest and true he is one of our true friends. FRANK BORING: What about your personal relationship with Chennault? CHENG YUAN LEE: Tell you the truth, I know lots about the Colonel's activities, but whatever he wants me to do, I do it for him. Human is human. You may do something, other people don't like it. I may do something, you don't like it. He is too. But whatever he do and he want me to help him, I do it for him because truly I love him from my own heart. He is so true to the Chinese people and this the only thing I could say. FRANK BORING: When you returned from the States in training and Chennault had now returned from the States to form the AVG, when did you then meet up with him again? CHENG YUAN LEE: I returned - I graduated in Thunderbird Air Force Base in United States, Phoenix, Arizona in May 1942. Then I was alone assigned to Army Air Force. Then you don't have an air force. I was assigned to Army Air Force in many different squadrons. In those �days they sent me to a different squadron almost every 2 to 3 months and finally I joined up with the Ferry Command and we flew B-24 from Miami Beach to Africa. Then someone told me that we are going to stay in Africa to fight the Germans and I said to myself, if I have to fight the Germans, I rather go back and fight the Japanese. Because then I already begin the hate to the Japanese, so I request from Africa to go back to Chunking. Then I get to see him and this is first time that the President Chiang Kaishek had me into his home alone, the first time, after I get back from Africa. FRANK BORING: This is 1942 or… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Lee_CY_1991-03-20_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Cheng Yuan "Henry Lee" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-20 Title A name given to the resource C. Y. "Henry" Lee interview (video and transcript, 4 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of C.Y. "Henry" Lee by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Lee was a Chinese Air Force Communications Officer who worked for Col. Chennault as his personal radioman before the AVG officially formed. Lee eventually joined a group of Chinese flight cadets being instructed by Captain Adair in Kunming, and then traveled to the United States for additional flight training. In this tape, Lee explains the reasons for the formation of the American Volunteer Group and his perspective while serving in the Chinese Air Force. He also describes his relationship with General Chennault in the early days of the AVG. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bcb8603220dd9ae201318bbca16ef18f.mp4 04e4ee933a46a633cd32e91c323b12c4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5b26bbfac0c2ebfd43ba882821637878.pdf 759f8cf99c30f7f0aaef7ea4c769e892 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Cheng Yuan Lee Date of Interview: 03-20-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] FRANK BORING: You got to know Chiang Kai-shek very well? CHENG YUAN LEE: He was impressed by a group of high military officers on the mainland just before we fall. FRANK BORING: What I need is your perspective. I see that Chiang Kai-shek had a very big task at this time - we're talking AVG period - we're talking 1941 -42. CHENG YUAN LEE: Japanese what they did on the mainland, especially in Manchuria it raised the patriotism of the people. (break) CHENG YUAN LEE: When President Chiang Kai-shek started from Canton with his military cadets to push northward. At that time he had only two provinces (break) CHENG YUAN LEE: The wrong thing. They could have solved the Chinese by one by one, but what they did they invaded Manchuria, they invaded Shanghai and later on in Chinan. All the activities cost the Chinese people - especially the younger one - at the age that time like me. Give up civilian life and university and join the Air Force because the Japanese made us really furious and hate. Then on China mainland we have many warlords. Each one occupy a province, a �province is like your states. President Chiang Kai-shek at that time he probably could only command two provinces. They started from Canton and push northward. Everything was fine and smooth until he got into Shandong [?], the Japanese trying to stop him and that was the first tragedy that occurred. Instead of the warlords drifting away from the President Chiang Kai-shek, they turned around and told him that we will follow you. Then before the nationalists get into Peking - in those days we called it Peking - the Japanese invade Manchuria and they bombed the Commanding General, (Marshall Chong), they killed him. (Marshall Chong's) eldest son (Marshall Chong) [?], he was a very young, able general. He wasn't in Manchuria. At that time he was on the mainland. When he learned about that he went back to Manchuria. In one night the whole Manchuria had the flag of nationalists - he turn over. Later on he told the people, the Japanese killed his father so he joined President Chiang Kai-shek and when the Japanese invaded Shanghai, the whole country, all the warlords, they said yes, we'll be with you and this is how the Word War II begins. FRANK BORING: What about the Communists? CHENG YUAN LEE: Yeah including the Communists. Then… (break) FRANK BORING: Why don't you talk about the Communists? CHENG YUAN LEE: [?] was a Communist. At that time the Nationalists already had a very long war with the Communists. As a matter of fact, the Communists were driven away from Chiang Shi? province and the so-called 2,000 miles marching towards Yunnan where is now northwest of China and that time the Japanese invaded Shanghai Communist - Mao Tse-tung say yes, we'll join you, President Chiang Kai-shek and this is how the whole country was unified. Actually it was helped by the Japanese. �FRANK BORING: You had mentioned earlier about the Doolittle raid. Can you tell us anything about that? CHENG YUAN LEE: General Doolittle had an aircraft - I forgot the name - the B-25 took off from the carrier and raided in Japan and too bad that the weather turned out bad. Then General Chennault told me - because at that time I was in [?] to set up a radio homer station. Then General Chennault told me, he said "Henry, a very important mission - get your radio station on and for sure that it works." So I had the radio station on almost 12 hours and the B-25 follow our homer so quite a few of them laying there on the beach of the China coast. I'm sorry they lost quite a few, but the ones that landed on China beach was following my homer. FRANK BORING: You had mentioned also in another conversation about how pilots that got shot down over enemy territory would be rescued by villagers and you had a couple of humorous stories about that. CHENG YUAN LEE: Many stories could tell you how the Chinese people loved the American pilots. During then many American pilots were shot down in Japanese occupied territory. Many of them parachuted and they landed. The native people, the local people would do every possible way to help them to get out of occupied territory. For instance, one case, a pilot was shot down and the village people got him into the village. They know soon the Japanese would come in to search for the pilot and if ever they found the pilot, not only they gonna kill the pilot, but they gonna kill the whole family or even wipe out the whole village. So the village people, they get together and those days us Chinese people use wood and hay for cooking and heating, so every family has a little house to store the dry wood and that time the farmers they get a brilliant idea. They got pilot into the wood house, have him lay on the ground and sleep on the ground and they piled the wood all around him so the Japanese comes in, they don't find anything. They never even dreamed that under the wood was a pilot. Daytime he sleeps under the wood, at night time they let him come out and stretch his legs. Now another �case, the Chinese people's wedding, they're old fashioned. They would send the bride from one village to other village by sedan chair. A few of you perhaps have seen the sedan chair - it's all covered by - a chair covered by beautiful embroidery things - but however, in the line of the wedding, usually they have a monk, a parson, to make pray for good luck and so forth, so in the line in the front usually maybe a few monk, or as many as 10 or 20. Well it is true the Chinese people are so smart they made a pilot - a bailed out pilot into a monk. They shave all his hair and they rub dirt on his face so he look like more close to Chinese people and they put a monk robe on him and he join the crowd and become one of the monk and then walk through to the - we called - the neutralized zone and the people would turn him over to the guerilla and the guerilla would take him back to the rear where he based. Now often, like that, not only one. Your four star general, General (Dess [?]), he came over to Taiwan to visit us and he met his old friend and magistrate of our city that helped him and they two become real good friends. Many, many, stories like this, you should hear from them. FRANK BORING: Could you tell us any stories that you thought of whether they were humorous stories or touching stories about Chennault? What were some of your personal recollections of Chennault? Not ones that you think are embarrassing, but often people have said to me, including my father who knew Chennault of course in CAT days, that you never could say no to the old man. If he requested something you had to do it. CHENG YUAN LEE: Let me tell you this now. Both President Chiang Kai-shek and President Chiang Ching-kuo for 100% I should say they are Dictators. No one could say no. No one could even hesitate of what he said. General Chennault was so close to them and worked with them for so long, to my own opinion honest and true. At the beginning when he came, he was more American. About 2 or 3 years later he is more like the President. When he tell you to do this, you do it. For a Chinese - because a lot of us are illiterate and �if he don't have the authority or the power, lot of time you find the people would do any different crazy things and this is how the authority is more power than anything else. Now a lot of you people being Democrat, you don't understand. And this is one of the reasons General Stillwell didn't like President Chiang Kai-shek, they like enemy. FRANK BORING: Do you mind talking about General Stillwell and Chennault and Chiang Kai-shek? CHENG YUAN LEE: Well I prefer not. Later on General Chennault involved in that [?]. FRANK BORING: In your opinion, coming from your heart, in terms of Chinese history, in terms of your own personal life, what do you think the significance of the AVG? CHENG YUAN LEE: Those days the Chinese people really suffered from the war. Especially from the Japanese air attacks. For almost about a whole year the CAF just cannot put up any resistance and the people's morale was deteriorating and then General Chennault formed the AVG and then came the victory. The people saw with their own eyes the Japanese aircraft was shot down. I can tell you this, during those days, the Chinese people were so excited, so happy, they almost do every crazy thing to celebrate when they saw a Japanese aircraft shot down. So in turn, when they see an American wears a leather jacket with two flags in the back and so they don't know who is American and who is a what - but as soon as they saw the jacket, they put up their thumb, Ting How - that's the only thing they could express. And I tell you this is true from the bottom of their hearts. Now this, the activity of the AVG not only bring up or boost the morale of the people, but they too boost the morale of all the troops. Now when the Chinese troops in the front, when they saw the Shark Fin, in those days the Chinese people call "The Tiger" because very few Chinese people have ever seen a shark before, so when they saw the shark's teeth, they say "here is a tiger" and this is how the AVG was so respected and so loved by �the Chinese people. They have truly boosted the morale of the whole nation and this is how I respect all of them. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Lee_CY_1991-03-20_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Cheng Yuan "Henry Lee" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-20 Title A name given to the resource C. Y. "Henry" Lee interview (video and transcript, 5 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of C.Y. "Henry" Lee by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Lee was a Chinese Air Force Communications Officer who worked for Col. Chennault as his personal radioman before the AVG officially formed. Lee eventually joined a group of Chinese flight cadets being instructed by Captain Adair in Kunming, and then traveled to the United States for additional flight training. In this tape, Lee discusses the events and conditions in China that lead to World War II, his personal recollections of General Chennault, and the significance of the AVG in Chinese history. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a4f81441fa7c7fb2c5621416d005245.mp4 442d884f1551e108b384ad43b2875ca4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ff012053b30b82e3200b6aa3f163b05c.pdf 7ebbdd561b51de57d6dc9be6fdaafaf8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Cheng Yuan Lee Date of Interview: 03-20-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] FRANK BORING: Looking back on that time when you were a young man and you were with Chennault and you were witnessing the bombings and you were seeing the atrocities and the horrible things that were going on within your country, what is your own personal evaluation of that time? CHENG YUAN LEE: Tell you the truth in the early part of the war I was young. I joined the Air Force at 17 years old and I know very little. Also I had already went into university, but I know very little. General Chennault I should say is the first one that actually got me into the knowledge of air power. For the first about 2 or 3 months, he wanted to get acquainted with the Chinese Air Force facilities and airfields and so forth. He would choose one of us five to go out to visit the various places with him. Most of the time Colonel Shu, he went with him because he was interpreter, but sometimes General Chennault wanted to fly. Then the Chinese Air Force we don't have multi-seat aircraft. The biggest aircraft we had was a Douglas two seats bi-plane, open cockpit. So he had to get me because I'm a radio operator also. He sits in the front flying, I'm in the back because I had to send the message back and that's how he choose me. Then he told me, he said "Henry, when I take off, when I give you the signal, you'll be flying straight and level." He got me interested in flying, although I wanted to be a pilot, but I never knew anything about flying before. Then it convinced him that I could be a pilot because I kept it straight and level good. Often �time he landed and he said "Henry, good boy." He is the one that actually educated me many things, not only the air force, in many things and this is the reason why I respect him so much. For a while I almost think that he is my father. He taught me many things and if it wasn't for him I wouldn't be a pilot. FRANK BORING: Looking back at that period of time now as a man who has accomplished many things in his life, that period of time when you were very young, 17 years old, 18 years old, what do you think of those times now? CHENG YUAN LEE: Later on because I had the opportunity of knowing a lot of high people, I even get close to President Chiang Kai-shek and be an Aide to President Chiang Ching Kou. I should say compares nowadays, those days I was a baby, I should say. I don't know anything, but now I know. And also I've been - I get myself in trouble often time. Not because of my mistakes, because of politics. Now United States has helped China a great deal, but a lot of things you people just don't know of the Chinese people. For instance, the Chinese people, during then I should say, half of the people are not well educated and many of them don't even know how to read and write. Their mind is simple. Their feeling is always straight. Although they started thinking but those thoughts would only go straight. China does need a man like a President Chiang Kai-shek. He is a man to tell the person "now, you do this, nothing else, but do this." Why? Because such a low educated people, if you don't put your thumbs on him, he go wild. He don't know even himself what he's gonna do. So a lot of Americans think that the President is a Dictator. He is treating the people not with a kind heart. No, it's not. He is very kind to the people, but when he want the people to do this, you do it, you finish it, you do as I told you. Because that's the only way to get a lot of the people to complete a thing. The Americans don't understand. The Americans, like when you are in your country, if someone comes to you like this, you'd get furious. You say what is a human right? But when you treat people like the early days on the mainland, the �farmers. What can you do? You do the work for him, do the work with him or you tell the person, you say "Now one, you do this, two you do that, and three, you do this." or you get nothing. FRANK BORING: Why do you think Chennault, an American, was so effective working with the Chinese people? CHENG YUAN LEE: Now, he came to China. Colonel Chennault he came to China. At the beginning, he don't understand also. Often time he talk to Colonel Hsu and I and the other three. He said "Why, the people like that?" We explain to him, we said don't misunderstand. He is not offend you. We explain to him the education, the background, the customs and the way we do things. Honest and true finds us like - an example, when I tell you, you're across the street, when I tell you to come I want to talk to you. I use my hand and do like this. Now when you want me to go across the street, you do your hands like this. Now only by hand gesture, two move are different to the Chinese. If you do to the Chinese, do like this. That means you look down at them. He is offended, he don't think you are a friend. We do like this to you, you don't feel kind of good. Often time you see people like this. Now we brought up a different custom, a different way for 1000 years. We just don't understand each other. Now this is the reason we explained to Colonel Chennault. He learned. Not only he learned, he asked questions. He asked a lot of questions, soon he become one of us. When the President told him something, he don't feel offended. He is happy to do that because he knows the President wasn't a Dictator. But to your people, many, many of your people, even with the President for quite a while, still think that he is different. So understand, to me, after I been with Americans for so long and I been traveling in 27 countries, understand is the first thing you learn. And it's a very hard problem. Don't think that that I understand what you say, that's nothing. You must understand like what I mentioned it, the background, the customs and the way we doing things, then you really understand. Don't try to say "Oh I understand what you said" that's nothing. General Chennault understood us and this is the �reason why he became so friendly to us and why the Chinese people love him. (break) CHENG YUAN LEE: Like another custom in India. If you go along a road - I saw many G.I.'s in India. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Lee_CY_1991-03-20_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Cheng Yuan "Henry Lee" Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-03-20 Title A name given to the resource C. Y. "Henry" Lee interview (video and transcript, 6 of 6), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of C.Y. "Henry" Lee by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Lee was a Chinese Air Force Communications Officer who worked for Col. Chennault as his personal radioman before the AVG officially formed. Lee eventually joined a group of Chinese flight cadets being instructed by Captain Adair in Kunming, and then traveled to the United States for additional flight training. In this tape, Lee discusses his time working with General Chennault and the AVG as a young man and why Chennault was so effective working with the Chinese people. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a84b52d2437c426eb8d5096c7ab29396.mp4 63f2918b5a3248b0fc638eeaec98445f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Shu-125 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource P.Y. Shu Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938 Title A name given to the resource Canton and Hong Kong, 1938 Description An account of the resource Film in black and white and color taken by Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu (no sound). The footage was recorded by Shu as he traveled with Col. Claire Chennault to aid the Chinese Air Force in training and establishing the American Volunteer Group (AVG). The footage documents Shu's travel and family as well as Chennault's and the AVG's activities during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Time-stamped scene list: 00:07 (black and white film) Travel by train, passing river boats. 01:00 Canton street scenes and architecture. 01:20 Shu family affairs. 01:34 Street scenes and double decker trolleys. 01:47 Aerial views of Hong Kong. 02:29 Railroad tracks and trains. 02:52 Hong Kong views from the water. 03:48 Arriving in port with views of steamers. 04:03 Hong Kong street scene. 04:16 Passenger ferry on the water. 04:27 Hong kong views from the water. 04:49 China National Aviation Corporation (CNAC) Headquarters exterior. Street scene with double decker trolleys. 6:30 Scenes along the coast and at the water. 08:14 (color film) Texaco emblem and neon signs at night. 09:00 (black and white film) Landscape views along coast. 09:42 Family at the beach. 11:22 (color film) Family at the beach. 11:37 (black and white film) Street scenes. The Kowloon Hotel marquee. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Chennault, Claire Lee, 1893-1958 Subject The topic of the resource China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945 Chennault, Claire Lee, 1893-1958 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp13 Language A language of the resource eng chi Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2a015e7ddba94f76f8aab65b13cf37c.mp4 011bc0ded309c689214cdf3dfd3752ea https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/77dc04097aff44400021dfba57fb5da5.pdf 648b7c3f00ceb9834cb682b70ed8e187 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: Judge, why don't we just begin by your giving us some idea, what was background that let you to eventually become a pilot? JUDGE OLDER: Well, I was attending UCLA. I think the first airplane ride I had was while I was attending UCLA. I went out to Mines Field, which is now L.A. International and paid $5 for a ride in an old midway N skull? The pilot took me up for a half hour and we played around in the clouds and I was sold after that. And the next thing that happened was that shortly before I graduated some Navy JG came around who was trying to get college students interested in the cadet program and he gave us some very interesting stories about Navy flying, snap rolls, wing overs and all of the other formation flying. By the time he got thru I was pretty well sold on the idea of going to flying before I went to I was going to continue and go on to law school, but the cadet program provided a way that you could get into the service and stay for 3 years get your flight training, become an officer and join one of the active squadrons and then after 3 years you could get out and continue your education and that's what I intended to do. FRANK BORING: So where did you actually begin your training as a pilot? JUDGE OLDER: Well, I went in as a naval cadet, but I became a marine cadet down at Long Beach. Long Beach is what they called the elimination �base. You went down there and got ten hours of instruction and soloed and if you passed the course down there then you went to Pensacola for the full flight course. FRANK BORING: Once you arrived at Pensacola, did you find the same kind of excitement in the learning how to fly as you had anticipated when you first went down? JUDGE OLDER: Oh, absolutely. Pensacola was a great place. FRANK BORING: What can you tell us about it? JUDGE OLDER: Well, I don't remember how many hundred cadets were there. We lived in barracks and very nice barracks. Pensacola is a very pretty place and for flying it is ideal. It's on the water and of course they had seaplanes and big boat flying which I didn't go into. Because they changed the course, I think our class was the first course that didn't get seaplane training and we went on into fighters. They had 4 or 5 airfields that you worked out of in the area. The course took something like I think it was 9 months. At the end of that time if you got thru all the checks, the various checks, you had checks, Squadron II, you had checks in squadron, I mean flight checks the instructors taking you up and checking you out. The big check was the check in Squadron III if you got by 8 hour check in Squadron III that's when the cadets would usually go out and bought themselves cars. Because that meant that unless something really happened that was if they really fouled up they were going to completed the course and get there wings and have steady source of income so they went, I bought myself a brand new 1940 Mercury convertible, black with a tan top and red leather upholstery. It was really a machine. FRANK BORING: The next question is a continuation of this, but I let you know what I'm trying to lead to. There was a reason why you eventually decided to take the opportunity of going to China, but before �getting into that –well, I'm not going to stay in the States I'm going to go to China. Do you see what I'm trying to… JUDGE OLDER: Well, it didn't happen that way. FRANK BORING: Ok. JUDGE OLDER: But I got the picture. FRANK BORING: Ok, what were your options once you did graduate from cadet school? JUDGE OLDER: Well, you really didn't have any options. They assigned you to a squadron and fortunately I was assigned to a fighter squadron in the Marine Corp, being a Marine cadet which I wanted. I could have of course gone into other Marine squadrons, but fortunately I did go into VMF 1, Fighting Squadron 1 at Quantico, Virginia. Along with Tom Haywood and Ken Jernstedt you also became AVG pilots with me at the same time. FRANK BORING: When did you first hear about the opportunity in China? JUDGE OLDER: I had just gotten back from leave out in Los Angeles after we had returned from 7 months down in the West Indies, primarily at Guantanamo, Cuba and Puerto Rico and after I got back from Los Angeles there was talk going around the squadron about some Navy commander who had been there talking about getting some of the reserve fighter pilots and all of the AVG pilots had to come out of the reserves. They wouldn't release any of the regulars. He was talking signing up and going to China to fight with Chinese against the Japanese to protect the Burma Road. So that sounded very interesting to me and Tom and Kenny and I were probably only 3 out of 5 pilots in the squadron who were reserve pilots who would qualify for that. So after much soul searching we decided we wanted to do that. and we went up to Rockefeller Center which was the headquarters of a company called CAMCO Central �Aircraft Manufacturing Company, which was a front for the AVG and talked to the people up there and gave us all the information and so forth. FRANK BORING: Let me ask you first of all what did you know about China? About the Chinese at this point? JUDGE OLDER: Very little. Of course I'd never been there. Only what I'd read. I knew there was a war going on there between the Chinese and the Japanese. It started in 1937. I knew the Chinese were being bombed indiscriminately by the Japanese. That's about all I knew. FRANK BORING: Why would you want to go to China? JUDGE OLDER: Primarily the adventure. And to support a good cause. We had gotten very good training in the Marine Corp, gunnery, dive bombing, formation, carrier landings. And we just felt like let's go use this training we've got. See the world. FRANK BORING: Once you made the decision to go the three of you went to CAMCO and met with them what was the actual procedure of getting out of the military. Any difficulty there may not have had to actually join up with the AVG? JUDGE OLDER: Well, we did have difficulty getting out the Marine Corp for the AVG. The first step was to sign a contract with CAMCO then the second step was to put in an application or resignation thru the squadron. And that was turned down. And then it was sent up to the Group Headquarters and that was turned down. Their feeling in both the squadron and the group was just spent a lot of money training you guys to be fighter pilots and now we got you up to a state of readiness and we are not about to turn you lose. From there it went to Washington where it was approved by virtue of an executive order of President Roosevelt that he had signed permitting reserve qualified fighter pilots to resign to join the American Volunteer Group. We were not at war at that time we are �talking now 1941, spring of 1941. We were not at war there was a national emergency which had been imposed in September of 1940 and you couldn't get out of the service without a release or without being allowed to get out. It wasn't a question of just resigning, you had to get the permission from Washington. FRANK BORING: How did you feel about fighting under the flag of a foreign government? JUDGE OLDER: Well, we weren't fighting under the flag of a foreign government. We were an independent group, civilian group, operating independently, but under the Chinese were supplying our housing and our supplies that, but the operational control was totally independent and in the hands of General Chennault who was our commander. FRANK BORING: Once it was approved from Washington what was the reaction of let's say the immediate circle of people that now knew you were leaving and what not and also to your commandant, did you have to check out with him? JUDGE OLDER: Well, I think all of our squadron mates were happy that we were able to do it. I think a lot of them would have liked to have gone with us, but couldn't because they were regular officers. I remember particularly the group operations officer was a Major Sandy Sanderson, old time pilot, great guy, and we had to go in and see him and this is when we were trying to get the permission and he listened to us without a chance of expression for a long time and while we explained to him why we wanted to go and what we were going to be doing and so on and just gave us a steely stare and when it was all over he stood up, put out his hand and said, boys I wish I was going with you. FRANK BORING: You mention in that that you were telling him why what you were going to be doing when you get there. What was actually told to you? What were you going to be doing when you arrived? �JUDGE OLDER: Well, we knew were going to be fighting the Japanese and that time the principal problem was keeping the Burma Road open because the Chinese had closed all the China ports. So that the only way that China could get supplies in was over the Burma Road, which started in Rangoon, Burma. FRANK BORING: I'm sorry I don't think you meant to say the Chinese, the Japanese were cutting off the Burma Road, the Japanese had cut off the Chinese ports. JUDGE OLDER: Oh, all right. FRANK BORING: All right. We'll just start from the very beginning. I'll just ask you the question again. What were you told that what you were going to be doing when you arrived in China? JUDGE OLDER: We were told that we would be flying P40 aircraft against the Japanese principally protecting the Burma Road from Japanese bombers and fighters. And the reason for that was because the Japanese had closed Chinese ports so the only supplies getting into China at that time were coming up from Rangoon, Burma over the Burma Road into western China. Of course the hump was not established at that time. The hump routes. FRANK BORING: Once you were checked out, if you will, finished with the military where was your first place that you went? Where was the first place you went to after you left the military? JUDGE OLDER: After I left. The first place that I went to after I left Quantico was Los Angeles, my home and that happened also to be the place where we were going to pick up the ship to take us over to China. We were around Los Angeles for about a month and then finally went down to Wilmington and got on the Zaandam, which was a Dutch cargo liner, passenger, cargo ship. �FRANK BORING: Let's stay in Los Angeles for a second. Did you have family there? JUDGE OLDER: Yes, my family lived there. FRANK BORING: Ok. Could you tell us what had you told your family about what you were going to be doing? JUDGE OLDER: Well, I told my family with the exception of my brother, my younger brother, I told my family that we were going to China to be flight instructors. I didn't want to tell them I was going to be in combat because it would simply cause a lot of unnecessary worry. I did tell my brother that I was going to be a fighter pilot, fighting the Japanese, and I said if I'm lucky enough to get any of them, I'll write home and call them pigeons. That I shot a pigeon. That was our little code. Well, actually Pearl Harbor came along before we got into combat there was no more necessity for the pigeon code word. FRANK BORING: Once you left Los Angeles did you stop over in San Francisco? JUDGE OLDER: No, from Los Angeles. We left Los Angeles and went directly to Honolulu. From Honolulu to the Philippines, from Philippines to Borneo, then Java. We changed ships in Batavia, which is now Jakarta, and went up to Singapore and then we took a train from Singapore to Kuala Lumpur and bus out to a little port called Port Swettenham and we got on a small British freighter and took a nine day sail up to Rangoon. FRANK BORING: Let's talk a bit about the trip itself. At this point you had met some of the people that you were going to become very close friends with later on in your life. What was your first impression on meeting this gang of guys from all over the country? You were all going there to for basically the same kind of reasons. What was your reaction? �JUDGE OLDER: Well, they were a great bunch of guys. I liked them. You know you feel that comradery of a group all going the same direction for the same purpose and that's what we were doing. We were all volunteers, in other words, nobody was making us go there. We all went there because we wanted to go there. And that makes for a very close knit organization. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 1 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older discusses his background that led him to becoming a pilot, his cadet training in Pensacola, and later joining the American Volunteer Group. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/406bad4cf4ff604cdc460e9375b89137.mp4 983fb6b349ec2cfe1241fcb331da0dec https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ccfa4b3fac39eb59bc3026ae54d90403.pdf 99f667f57b5e24faab5ad57071771aca PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: What was your reaction to meeting this bunch of guys from all over the country? How did you react to that? JUDGE OLDER: Well, it was in Los Angeles when I first met the group that was going on our ship to Burma. They were a great bunch of guys. They were from all three of the services, Marine Corp, Navy, at that time the Army Air Corp. We were all volunteers, we all knew why we were there. We all wanted to be there. We were all going in the same direction for the same purpose it was a very close knit organization. FRANK BORING: There was, at the time, implied to you that this trip was supposed to be kept secret, somewhat. Your passports shows you to be some rather creative occupations. Wonder if you could comment on that? JUDGE OLDER: Yes, we all had to have passports. My passport said I was a writer. The other passports all indicated strange occupations that had nothing to do with being a fighter pilots or members of ground crews and it was secret mission at time. And this was before Pearl Harbor. We left the States, I left, I think it was August 26, 1941 from Wilmington. There was some problem in Honolulu about some of the people talking in a bar. I don't know what it was they were alleged to have said. As we pulled out of Honolulu late one afternoon, headed for the Philippines a couple of the ground crew, �I think jumped off the back of the boat and the Coast Guard had to come out and pick them out and deliver them back to the boat. I don't know what they thought they'd left in Honolulu, but that was a strange incident that I never did learn the reason for. FRANK BORING: What was the trip over like? I mean in terms of the routine, in terms of fellow passengers, in terms of friendship you may have made at that time. JUDGE OLDER: Well, I was rooming, the cabin that I was in I was with Frank Swartz. FRANK BORING: We have to wait for Jake. JUDGE OLDER: Was he getting in the picture? FRANK BORING: No, No scratching. I think we hurt his feeling. JUDGE OLDER: No, no he's all right. FRANK BORING: Give us an idea of what it was like to be on the boat? Any of the friendship you may have formed. The fellow passengers other than AVG and incidences that might have happened. JUDGE OLDER: There were six on the boat, six AVG pilots: Tom Haywood, Kenny Jernstedt, myself, Frank Swartz, Bill Bartling and Johnny Farrell. I knew all of them except Bartling and Farrell before. Even though Bartling went to Pensacola, I don't think I had ever met him before. Farrell was from the Army Air Corp. The rest were ground crew, there were also some passengers. There was a group of missionaries going back to the Far East including two young missionary daughters, they were French, French missionaries. We got to know these people fairly well. Oh, probably no more than 3 or 4 other passengers that I can remember outside of the missionary group. And we had a lot of fun. We spent most of the day out in the deck chairs reading books, I remember I was reading �Inside Asia by John Gunther to try to get a little background on Southeast Asia. Other than that it was just lazy days in the sun crossing the ocean. The nights were interesting because we were running blacked out and occasionally they would sight another ship off somewhere and had no way of knowing whether it was even though we were not yet at war, the news reports that we were getting indicated that the Japanese were sending about 20,000 troops a week into Indo-China. We knew they weren't going down there to for a picnic and it was just a question of time before that erupted in that area. So everybody was of course Japan was a member of the axis powers, along with Germany and Italy and even though Japan was not at war at that moment except with China, everybody was concern with what could happen. So the ship ran blacked out and it was zig zag occasionally when it spotted another ship, but other than that there were no incidents. FRANK BORING: How about the stopovers in various places? Did you get a chance to go ashore? JUDGE OLDER: Oh, yes, we had a great day in Honolulu. Kenny Jernstedt, Tom Haywood and I rented a car some nice lady was the driver and drove us around Oahu. We had a couple of days or more in Manilla. Interesting town, city, big city. FRANK BORING: I guess what I am looking for is that you are an American, grew up in America, gone to the Far East for adventures and everything, what was the first impression with coming into an Asian country? What was is there a culture shock involved? Was there something very exciting about it? If you could just describe what it was like to first arrive on Asian shores. JUDGE OLDER: Well, I'd say it was very exciting, colorful. I was impressed with the tremendous number of people in many of these places and the strange customs they had the strange way doing things. Very exciting. �FRANK BORING: What would you say amongst this trip before you arrived at your destination, which one was the one that stuck out the most. JUDGE OLDER: I think the most exciting place on the trip over was Singapore. Because it was one of the great British colony cities, one of crossroads of the world. Of course the famous Raffles Hotel was in full sway at that time. It was a very interesting place. FRANK BORING: Can you tell us more about the Raffles Hotel. JUDGE OLDER: Well, the Raffles, they had a big bar which was as you walked into the place they had the cocktail bar type of thing that we think of in the States, but it was a large room that did have a bar, but many tables and very tropical looking type of atmosphere. The Hotel itself was very nice. It was just about everything you would expect to see having read about it, you know, was glamorous place. A lot of interesting, glamorous people staying there. FRANK BORING: I guess what we are looking for one person with a dream or idea is one thing but when you get two close buddies to talk about it just seems to grow. The excitement grows and it makes it even more real. Three guys, but when we interviewed Ken it really came out that there was this really close friendship being bonded at the time which lead to talk about it, what was the sense of excitement, somehow communicate that sense of excitement. JUDGE OLDER: Excuse me, but are we talking about on the trip over or— FRANK BORING: Yeah, that's when you guys had a lot to time to talk, right? and to I'm not talking about once you arrived there, I guess I'm looking for that beginning stages of friendship developing and the types of things you talked about because that will lead us into what you actually found when you got there. JUDGE OLDER: Well, my closest friends on the trip going over of course were Tom Haywood and Kenny Jernstedt because we all served together in �the Marine Fighter Squadron since leaving Pensacola. I guess we probably spent the most time together on the ship because of that. We talked frequently on the ship about where we were going and what it was going to look like and what we were going to be doing, and what kinds of aircraft the Japs were flying, what kind of facilities the AVG would have, where we would be based, terrain. I remember talking about what I had read in Gunther's book that about the snakes in Southeast Asia, the cobras, and the crates, and the Russells vipers. You know all this was very exciting and glamorous. I think I read that there were over 20,000 people a year killed by snake bites in South East Asia which seemed incredible to me. But I think that number was not far off when you take in all of the countries in South East Asia. And we also when we got to Burma, Toungoo had a show put on for us by some snake charmers, King Cobras, which was extremely interesting. FRANK BORING: So you had a chance to talk the three of you about what you expected. Could you now describe for us what you actually found when you arrived in Burma. JUDGE OLDER: We arrived in Rangoon I think it was October 8th or 10th and it was a bustling port. Rangoon doesn't sit right on the Bay of Bengal you have to go up I think the Rangoon River for about 40 miles which is a very wide river like an estuary. Then you finally come to the big city of Rangoon, and it is a large city, very exotic. The thing you see about Rangoon from about 40 miles away is great Shwedagon Pagoda. Which is the largest pagoda in the world I believe. It's gold covered and supposedly encrusted with jewels at the top and that stands out like a beacon as you're coming up the river into Rangoon. Then we started having the ship unloaded and I can remember I had a trunk, a small trunk, but very heavy. I had everything in it including some guns and ammunition, clothes and everything. I could hardly lift one end of it. These three fellows came aboard and two of the large fellows picked this truck up and they set it on the back of this kind of old wizened man, Burmese man, and he grabbed it over his shoulder , the handles and �staggered off the boat with this trunk of mine. I remember really feeling sorry for this fellow. Well, then we checked into the Strand Hotel , that was a very nice hotel, right on very close to the water. And spent a few days there some of the people came down from Toungoo. One of my classmates at Pensacola, Noel Bacon came down and I asked him what we could expect up there and he told us a few of the things. One of things that always stuck out in my mind he described of course Chennault and Harvey Greenlaw, who was the executive officer and he described Olga Greenlaw who was Harvey's wife I think she was part Russian. He described her as being very glamorous so forth and at one point I asked him I said, Noel, what kind of a gal is this Olga and he thought for a minute and then he said well, she's the kind of a woman who would make a dog break its chain. I didn't know what he had in mind it was a very picturesque description. And she was an unusual woman. FRANK BORING: Where was your next stop then? JUDGE OLDER: After a few days in Rangoon we got on a train and headed for Toungoo which is about 120 miles northeast of Rangoon. Rained the entire trip. All I saw was flooded rice paddies and rain out the train window. I was beginning to think I should have gone into seaplanes instead of fighters. We finally got into Toungoo in the early evening and they had gathered together a little native band about a 6 piece band that was standing on station as we got off the train and they were playing, "There will be a hot time in the old town tonight". Of course all the people on the base were down there to welcome us. It was a very joyful welcome. Then we proceed over to our base at, this little RAF airfield, which is called Kyedaw. Checked into our barracks and there we were. FRANK BORING: Let's take a look at the barracks at the first time you saw it. You talked about what to except when you got there and perhaps had some advance notice. What did you feel like the first time you walked into those barracks? �JUDGE OLDER: I felt like I was in the tropics. The barracks were... the first time I got into the barracks I felt like I was in the tropics, for sure. Because of the way they were constructed for one thing. They were kind of bamboo and thatch and heavy thatch roof and bamboo rafters and studs and so forth and wood floor. Beds were lined up on both sides with an aisle down the middle. Everybody had a big mosquito net which was folded up on top in the day time and dropped down at night because no one would think about sleeping without a mosquito net at night. Now just to keep the mosquito out, but to keep out some of the other things that were crawling around. As a matter of fact at night you could take a flashlight when the lights were out and flash it up into the pointed roof and see the light reflecting off eyes of all the things that were up there. When you went out to the latrine or outside for anything you'd take a ball, bat or a stick with you. One of the other squadrons I think they killed a cobra in the shower and I ran over a crate one night on my bicycle coming back from the movie theatre to the barracks. It was not a place to wander around by yourself at night without a light and something to strike back with. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 2 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older describes his experience meeting the other members of the AVG, their journey overseas to Rangoon, and the train ride to their barracks in Toungoo. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f17957150064f7a35ccfb4bb947d356.mp4 76d0ca9a0f077bf2a10b137b0e06fd6e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c0b3c5afa85a468b82c04e278a35824c.pdf 695a615e19ed4a6c3e039d60bca4423e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: Would you tell us about the person you was eventually known as Fearless Freddie? JUDGE OLDER: One of my barracks mates in the 3rd Squadron was Fred Hodges who early acquired the name of Fearless Freddie because of his great fear of insects or anything that crawled. And Burma was the wrong place to be for Fearless Freddie I can tell you that. One night when we were coming back from the mess hall, a couple of us decided that we would exploit the insect life of Burma at Freddie's expense by taking a one of their June bugs which is about the size of a golf ball and tying a string around its leg and hanging it down from the wire that holds the mosquito netting up on his bed. Of course we went back first and he was still there, at the mess hall, so we got in a turned the lights out and waited to see what would happen. Freddie came in and started to get undressed in the dark and this June bug kept hitting him in the face and he didn't know what it was and he just kind of brushed it out of the way. Finally he got a flashlight and he flashed the light on this thing, well, he went crazy. He ran over and got a ball bat in the corner started yelling, well, he almost tore the barracks down trying to kill that June bug. (laughter) �FRANK BORING: If we could now go into, after the first night give us an idea of what your first duties were. First routine that started to settle in, idea of what the camp was like, the base was like, and who you met at that time. JUDGE OLDER: The Toungoo base consisted of a number of separate buildings, the barracks, each squadron had a different barracks. There was separate mess hall, there was a separate dispensary or minor hospital. Of course there were the hangers down on the flight line or one hanger actually. This was a little RAF base that they had turned over to us for our use. Our first routine, course outside of sleeping and eating, was to go to ground school. There we got the operational manuals for the P40 and some data on the specs of the P40 before we checked out because none of the Marines of course had flown P40. They didn't have P40 in the Marine Corps and I don't think most of the other AVG pilots had ever flown a P40 some of them may have a few of them. So that was the first order of business was get checked out in the airplane. And the second order of business was the morning ground school that Chennault gave every morning after breakfast starting at about something like 7 in the morning. Where he would give us all of his knowledge that he had acquired about the Japanese Air Force during the last five years that he had been in China. And he, from time to time, would bring in Chinese Air Force pilots that had fought against the Japanese and we would get their first hand impressions of the Japanese aircraft and tactics, the good points the bad points. Chennault had obtained from somewhere captured Japanese aircraft I guess the operational manuals for many of their aircraft and even some of their strategic plans in general. So we spent our time learning as much of this as we could and of course he would lecture to us on his theories of air combat, fighter tactics and so on. FRANK BORING: Let's go back to the first time you actually encountered Chennault. The first time you saw him. Would you give us your first impressions of what he looked like to you? �JUDGE OLDER: Well, the first time I saw Chennault I don't recall now exactly where in Toungoo it was, it could have been in the mess hall early one morning, or maybe it was the ground school. But I was immediately impressed with his physical appearance. Because he had one of the most rugged lookin' faces you'll ever see on an individual. In fact I think it was Winston Churchill saw Chennault somewhere at one their meetings and his remark was "I'm glad he's on our side." And that just exactly the impression that you got when you saw him, he was just a rugged lookin' guy and his face was weather-beaten. It looked like it had been hanging out of a cockpit in the slipstream for the last 20 years. It was like a piece of leather. He had dark piercing eyes, very friendly, but extremely determined appearance. Absolutely dedicated to defeating the Japanese. That came thru after you'd talked to him for a few minutes. There was no doubt about where he was and where he was going. FRANK BORING: You had already been thru a great deal of pilot training, you'd gone thru all the different steps where you could have faltered at any time, but you graduated. You made it all the way out there. I'd like your evaluation from the student's point of view if you will or the experience pilot point of view of Chennault as teacher he was telling you different tactics about the Japanese and different tactics that perhaps you had heard before. What was your evaluation, did you have any confidence in this man that he was going to be able to teach you something that you were going to need to know. JUDGE OLDER: Yes, I had a great deal of confidence in General Chennault's ability to teach us fighter tactics and to teach us about the Japanese. Two things you needed to know in addition to being able to handle your own airplane. The first thing he did, or one of the first things he did was to get us away from the old three plane formation that we had been flying in the States and get us into 2 plane elements and 6 plane flights. The reason for this was to increase the flexibility, instead of flying tight formation you had elements of two planes where they were, the wing man was out a bit so he had some �flexibility of movement and the elements were staggered back, one on each side of the lead element and with the idea that the rear element would probably be the what we called the tail end Charlie and weave back and forth. Of course everybody had to keep their eyes open for the enemy that was number one. But usually you'd like to have a weaver element back there to do a little more looking. So that was a novel introduction to combat formation that we hadn't had before and I think everybody agreed that that was a big improvement over what we had been doing in the States. FRANK BORING: Could you also elaborate to us about another technique he talked about rather than dogfighting with the Japanese airplane there was a technique of going up to I believe it is 20,000 feet and coming down. How did you react to that? Could you explain that to us? JUDGE OLDER: I don't know what you're talking about. FRANK BORING: OK the traditional method of fighting as I understood it at that point was just to dogfight ‘em. JUDGE OLDER: Of course Chennault taught us the respective characteristics of our aircraft and the Japanese aircraft. And of course we found out first hand after flying our P40 what the characteristics were of them. One of the things that he stressed was don't try to get into a turning combat with the Japs fighters because they could turn way inside of you and they are more maneuverable Our number one advantage was first speed, the ability to get up high and to make the Japs fight our way. Use the strong points of the P40 to select the methods of combat rather than letting the Japanese decide how the combat was going to be fought. So these were all things we worked on and all made sense and worked out as it turned out when we did get into combat. FRANK BORING: Let's go into the actual training period now where the different pilots were checking out on the P40. Could you give any comments from your own perspective of your own ability to deal �with the P40 and perhaps your observation of what was going on with the other pilots. JUDGE OLDER: When we checked out on the P40 at Toungoo I found that it was a good airplane, I liked the P40, it was a good airplane. Of course everything has to placed into the context of its times. It wasn't as good as the P51, but there weren't any P-51's then. They didn't come out until a couple of years later. It had you can always use more power, but it had adequate power. It had good speed, we could get it up to about 27,000 which was adequate. It was reasonably maneuverable, it was very rugged, could have used more fight power. The early P-40B's only had two 50 calibers and four 30 calibers in the wings. Two 50's in the nose and four in the wings, 30 calibers in the wings and the 30's were virtually useless. The 50 calibers would be the guns that did damage. Later on of course the P51 had six 50 calibers machine guns, three in each wing and a P47 had eight, four in each wing. FRANK BORING: Stop here. Do you need some water? JUDGE OLDER: Yeah, that wouldn't be a bad idea. FRANK BORING: You've gone into the characteristics of the P40 what I'm looking for now is your first experience with flying it and then your observation of how the other pilots were dealing with the P40. Do you see what I'm trying to get at? It's more in terms of the airplane you [?] flying it and then watching how the other guys were doing? Because some of them didn't handle it very well, there was some crashes and at one time as I understand it Chennault even got very upset grounded everybody. Because he said he thought you should go back to school and learn how to use these things. JUDGE OLDER: I can remember my first flight in the P40 very well because you always remember the first flight in any airplane--it's strange, it's different, you're not sure what the feels going to be and it takes a while to get used to it. I liked the P40 very much. It handled very �well. The most difficult part was on the landing, roll, where you had to be on your toes every minute to keep it under control down the runway and not end up in a ground loop. Unfortunately, a number of the pilots who had not been familiar with fighters and some it turned out had never flown fighters before had trouble with the P40. Mostly because of a tendency to ground loop and let it get away from them on the landings. So you had to be very careful on that. I didn't see any bad characteristics at all. FRANK BORING: Let's look at the daily life, if you will, during this period of time. Part of the time you're flying as you said there is eating there is sleeping of course. I guess we are looking for some of other aspects. How did you get around? Did you have jeeps? Did you have trucks? How was the daily life? JUDGE OLDER: Our mode of transportation at Toungoo for the individual, was bicycles. There were a few automobiles, staff cars, maybe a jeep or two, but mostly it was just bicycles. We bought the bicycles in town, in Toungoo, and another standard item for everybody at Toungoo were boots. Leather boots. We'd go into town and they had a very simple method of fitting you. You put your foot down on a piece of paper and draw around it with a pencil and got a perfect fit for your custom made boot. Bicycles were used for everything. FRANK BORING: What was the food like, conditions, what did you do for entertainment? What did you do to relax? These sorts of things. JUDGE OLDER: Our entertainment at Toungoo consisted mostly of athletics in the afternoon when it was too hot to fly. We did most of our flying in the morning because by 11 o'clock in the morning the wing of that airplane was hot enough to fry an egg on. It just got too hot after that. And in the afternoon we played baseball, later in the afternoon it cooled down a little bit, baseball, badminton, playing cards, cribbage, poker, red dog anything that happened to come up. That was about it. There really wasn't, we'd take little side trips �out. I remember one trip we took out to I guess it is the Sittang River which is east of Toungoo out into the jungle. And it was very interesting. I saw some elephants out there carrying logs, teak logs. And we took little side trips into Toungoo and bicycle up and down the road this way and that way. FRANK BORING: Where there any people there that stuck out particularly? You mentioned earlier that you had heard about Olga Greenlaw, there was also the doctor, nurses there? JUDGE OLDER: Yes, we had two doctors and a dentist and two nurses. They were all great people and of course we got to know them very well because we were all living in close proximity there in Toungoo. FRANK BORING: Was there anybody that stuck out the people that you like, dislike or example Harvey Greenlaw was some people had very strong opinions about. I'm just wondering if you could comment on some of the people. JUDGE OLDER: Harvey Greenlaw was the executive officer and he had I believe he was a West Point officer if I remember correctly. He had gotten out of the service one way or another I forgot now what his career had been in between. But he ended up as the executive officer of the AVG. He was a very likeable guy. He had he was controversially in some respects I think some of the people didn't care for him too much, but I always liked him. And I mentioned his wife, Olga, before. She was a very interesting gal nice looking gal. I think she was either Russian or part Russian. They were a strange couple, they were very unlike each other. I remember one story they tell about Olga and Harvey they were in India someplace I think, I think it was in Delhi one time having one of their usual martial disputes and they came to the top of this marble staircase and Olga just nudged Harvey with her foot down this marble stair case. But most of time they seemed to get along. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 3 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older discusses his first duties at their base in Toungoo, in addition to his first impressions of General Chennault and his training methods. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bdf513e82be4d121a96714a1fff724c9.mp4 d5eb17dccd57734967143167a8ec3f09 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f923239a210bd1c8641e7636af5e1492.pdf 6830159a76308083191c4205e9cba822 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: At this point if we could talk about the training from a different perspective. See the crashes and perhaps the injuries and fatalities what kind of effect that had on you? JUDGE OLDER: By the time I arrived in Rangoon two of the pilots had already been killed in an accident. I think it was in one accident, I'm not sure. I think it was a mid-air collision. And one was killed while I was at Toungoo - that was Pete Atkinson. He was up on an early morning test flight went into a dive and from about 10,000 feet the Curtis Electric propeller ran away and it just I never heard such a horrible sound come out of an engine airplane as that one was. And it finally just blew engine up and he went straight in. I did know Pete, but not well he was in one of the other squadrons. I just knew him as an acquaintance. Well, it has a very strong effect on you and it certainly made me realize that I didn't want to put a P40 in that situation where that could happen. FRANK BORING: Once the training was over with what's the next stage, what was the next step that you took? Where did you go? JUDGE OLDER: The next thing that happened at Toungoo as our training there was pretty much completed and we were about to be sent up to China. I went up one day on a test flight and when I came back down I saw a group of people huddled together talking over by the hanger. I �got out of the airplane wandered over there and I began to pick up fragments of conversation about Pearl Harbor, Japanese, and I couldn't understand what they were talking about. I finally got one of them aside I said what's going on, he said the Japs have attack Pearl Harbor. FRANK BORING: We're going to have to start -- I liked that whole approach that you had the beginning was very good. Test plane, then landing and seeing the huddle that's very good. Begin from the beginning. JUDGE OLDER: After we had trained in Toungoo for a couple of months now we're talking about early December, first week in December. I was up on a test flight and when I came back down and landed taxied up and parked it I noticed a group of people standing over by the hanger talking. Looked kind of unusual, I never saw any groups like that before standing and talking like that before. So I went over there and I started picking up fragments of conversation Pearl Harbor, Japanese and other things. So I got one of the people aside and said what's going on? What are you talking about? They said the Japs have just attacked Pearl Harbor. Well, of course, that changed everything. We suppose to, our squadron, the 3rd squadron, was supposed to go on up to Kunming, China with the other two squadrons. After December 7th, which was December 8th in Burma, they decided to send the 3rd squadron to Rangoon and send the other two squadrons up to Kunming. So in due course we went down to Rangoon. I think we probably got down there somewhere around the 20th of December? FRANK BORING: What did you find when you arrived there? Not just the atmosphere the other, pilots, crew, what was the mood like? JUDGE OLDER: The mood was one of great anticipation. We anticipated that we were going to be getting into combat very shortly we were considered about the lack warning, we were concerned about the size of the enemy force what it might be and the composition of it. We were working with the British there, the British RAF had a �squadron of Brewster Buffalos and they had a squadron of Hurricanes. We didn't know exactly how we would be working with them in air combat if at all whether they would be operating separately or what the situation would be so it was a period of great anticipation. FRANK BORING: Now thru that entire time period, December, the anticipation was building but nothing actually broke until I believe around the 23rd. Could you tell us about the day when things really started to happen? JUDGE OLDER: Well, the first alert we got at Rangoon occurred about the 21st or 22nd I believe. It turned out that it was a false alert, but everybody would scramble off and it was a melee in the air, because it was the first time thing were pretty well disorganized and we ended up scaring each other I think more than the enemy would have scared us, by near misses, mid-air collisions and everything else. It was just, you know, the first time and we didn't know what to expect, we didn't where they were coming from, we didn't know how many there would be, if they did come and so on. We had a good session afterwards, debriefing on the ground about how now to kill each other. So when the first real alert came, which was on December 23rd, we were much more prepared for it. It so happened I had the day off on that day with Ed Overend and we had planned bicycle into Rangoon and look around and do some shopping and as we were bicycling off the base we heard the engines starting up and first we heard the RAF go off and then we heard the P-40's go off. I turned to Ed and I said Ed, there's something going on. Let's get back there. So we went back to the field and there were just 2 P-40's sitting on the field and nobody around that I could see. We bicycled over there and found a crew man and said what's wrong with these airplanes, he said, nothing. I said, Ed let's go flying. So we jumped in the P-40's and headed east and got out to about 8,000 feet we finally joined up with a flight turned out it was a flight that McMillan, George McMillan was leading and there were only 4 in that flight so we joined up with �that flight. We got up to about 8,000 feet and still going east toward the Gulf of Martaban. I looked up ahead and at about 11,000 I could see this huge formation. It looked to me like a huge formation of twin engines bombers and up behind that maybe another 1,000 feet or so looked like about 20 or 30 fighters maneuvering around. It was hard to believe at first, here they are, this is the enemy. You don't have to wait any longer, they're here. So, we started making attacks we had an altitude disadvantage of about 3,000 feet so we had to climb up and they were heading into toward Mingaladon, this particular group. Turns out there was another group down sough going into Rangoon. I decided the best way to attack before they got to the airfield probably the only way to attack before they got to the airfield because of our altitude disadvantage was to climb up directly underneath the formation and try to stay out of the range of their bottom guns by coming in sharply, steeply, underneath and making the attacks that way and then going diving out to the side and coming back and doing the same thing again. So that's what I did. I got the leader of the formation of this particular 27 plane formation. I saw the bomb bay doors open as I was underneath. So I knew they were getting close they were on their initial point for their bomb run. And on this particular pass that I made it just blew the whole bottom out of the airplane, debris was showering down and I got out of the way and as he rolled over as the leader rolled over and went out the wing man on the right side just slide over and took the lead. It was just like mechanical precision. There was no delay, no confusion on the Japs parts they just continued on toward Mingaladon Airdrome. And then on another pass I got another one and by that time I was running low on ammunition and we got separated in the fight as usual and I came back and circled around awhile to see what was going on and finally came in and landed. They'd bombed the airfield the runway was full of holes. But there were places to land. FRANK BORING: That was excellent, that whole [?] talking with, heard this about the Japanese pilots before and this is what I found afterwards. �JUDGE OLDER: Yeah, Ok. JUDGE OLDER: I had heard in our training that the Japanese pilots were pretty mechanical in the sense that they always reacted pretty much the same way to a situation whether it called for it or not. I didn't really find that to be true, I think they were very well disciplined, particularly the bomber formations, but the fighters that I engaged later on other missions I found them to be very resourceful. They were good pilots and they made the most of what they had. FRANK BORING: How about before you were even trained? When you were in the States, when you were in the military for example, what was your impression about the Japanese Air Force at that time? JUDGE OLDER: When I was in the States before I went with the AVG I really didn't have any impression as to what kind pilots the Japanese were or what kind of aircraft they were flying except in a vague way. FRANK BORING: After that initial encounter in which you had shot down 2 bombers and the rest of the group came back what was the mood of the group, and ground crews as well as the pilots themselves. Specifically, you, as to that encounter? JUDGE OLDER: When I finally got back on the ground after the first fight, of course, I was looking around to see who else was there and who was missing, what damage had been done to the airfield. We still had a number of pilots that hadn't landed yet and I, of course, had no way of knowing what had happened to them, or whether they would return. Most of them did. Although the 3rd Squadron lost 2 pilots on that first mission, Neal Martin and Hank Gilbert. I was not in the flight they were in so I had no idea at that time what happened to them. I believe there were some other pilots missing that turned up later. I know Ed Overend was missing on either that or the next mission, Paul Green got shot down on that mission and bailed out. I understand from him that strafed him on the way down or tried to. So it was a scene of great tension and excitement, �wonder, and doubt as to outcome of a lot of these things when I finally got back on the ground. The British had suffered some severe losses, both in their aircraft and on the ground. They had been bombed pretty heavily, some people killed on the ground. So it was very tension-full day shall we say. FRANK BORING: How much did you rely on the training that Chennault had given you on that actually first combat? Did it come back to you or did. The actual training that you had how much did you rely on? JUDGE OLDER: We relied on Chennault's training in our combats I found that when you get into combat the best laid plans of mice and men don't always work out the way you start out. For one thing you usually get the formations broken up pretty quickly and you may still have your wing man with you but you may have lost the rest of the flight. Sometimes the wing man gets separated and you're on your own. And that happened in both the engagements at Rangoon. We started out in the six plane flights, two plane elements, but they were soon broken up because of the way combat developed. And I think that was true everywhere. So can't fly around in combat in formation. It's just not possible. But at least you can start out that way and get an advantage because of the way you've operated and were you are and your altitude, speed and so on. FRANK BORING: What were the next few days like towards the end of December into January? Were there any more encounters or…? JUDGE OLDER: Yes, the Japanese, I guess it was Tokyo Rose on the night of December 23rd after the first combat when we had shot down. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 4 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older describes the effect the injuries and fatalities during AVG flight training and the news of Pearl Harbor had on him while preparing for combat. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f9a24cf8de1615a945ffdefa07c66dba.mp4 f7e3b029f34382e56e4a376cc2a24f64 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/42dce1bb37b774688e2e8081f5db3d8f.pdf f70d86e5fcef004e253976679cf524f6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] FRANK BORING: What happened? JUDGE OLDER: Oh, I don't know the only time I ever flew with Greg was one time we were going from Kunming to Loiwing, but the two of us. I don't remember the occasion when he left I just knew that he had left. FRANK BORING: How did you rate him as a pilot? JUDGE OLDER: Good pilot, yeah. I was always got along fine with Greg. But he was a mean mother when he got drunk. And I had learned early to stay away from him when he was like that. He was like a bull. That's when he got into all his troubles, you know, get half bombed and take on anybody. FRANK BORING: OK. Let's start off with the Christmas time right after this happened. Tokyo Rose something about Tokyo Rose. JUDGE OLDER: At Rangoon on evening of the 23rd, December 23rd, after our first combat the Tokyo radio came on, Tokyo Rose and said that, I forget how she described us, outlaw Americans, or some term like that, had been engaged by the Imperial Japanese Air Force over Rangoon that day and that she just wanted to inform the Americans that the Japanese would be back to drop them some Christmas �presents two days later on Christmas Day. True to her word they were. That was our second alert and we had 13 airplanes in the air that day. One flight of seven and one flight of six. That's my recollection. Could have been a couple more plus the RAF had their aircraft I don't remember exactly how many. The Japs came over with bigger bomber formations this time they did make a switch. Instead of coming in from the East they went around, at least the formation that attack Mingaladon, went around to the south and came in from the west. So they didn't like what they found when they were bombing the first time. When they ran into AVG. So this way at least they'd be headed home after the dropped their bombs. Tom Haywood was flying on my wing that day. We met them at particularly the same level, but several miles apart. They were coming in from the west and he were heading east, south of them. We turned into them and couldn't make any head on passes the situation didn't allow that. We had to dive down and come up underneath again. Tom and I stayed together pretty closely for the first few passes. Each of us got a couple of bombers. They were dropping like flies. They were rolling out of the formation, wings coming off, blowing up. It was a scene of like something out of hell. We'd follow them down some of them and then come back up and attack again. Eventually we got separated and I decided I would head out east toward the Gulf of Martaban to see if I could pick up anybody going home. Because I still had gas, and I still had ammunition. Up ahead I spotted a Jap fighter and I was sure that he would see me so I came up from underneath him expecting any minute that he was going to do a snap turn and be after me, but he didn't. I let him have one long burst he started down, started smoking, went down the long wide spiral. We were up about 15,000, 10,000. Finally saw one wing come off and then he went into the Gulf of Martaban. Then on the way back to the base I saw another fighter up ahead of me and I thought it looked like it was a Hurricane- RAF. But I made the same kind of approach on him just to make sure for identification. I came underneath right like this and then slid out to one side and I was flying on formation before he saw me. And he turned around and �the first time he saw me and did a double take that almost took his head off because I was flying right on his wing. I think I taught him a lesson. Anyway, it was a big day we got 25 Japs fighters and bombers that day. The RAF got some. We didn't lose anybody that day. Although we did lose an airplane or two but the pilots were saved. JUDGE OLDER: You asked me how I felt after I shot down an enemy aircraft. Well, at the time you are so busy you don't have much time to be thinking about that. You're thinking about keeping from getting shot down yourself. FRANK BORING: Referring to my question then we can't use them. Just say the first time the way I felt the first time I ever shot down an airplane something on that instead of asking the question. JUDGE OLDER: I wondered how I would feel the first time I shot down an enemy aircraft. As it turns out you're so busy in combat trying to keep from getting shot down yourself that you don't really have time to think about it until later. I mean just briefly in passing when that big bomber rolled out that I shot down on the first day and headed down, the one that blew the bomb bay out, I wondered first how many Japanese were aboard, I wondered what their rank were because I thought this being the leader of the formation and the first time they had ever hit Rangoon they may well have had a high ranking officer up there, just either piloting the aircraft or along for the ride to see what happened. And those are the kind of things you wonder about. When I shot down the fighter the first time, the one I came up underneath and got without any response from him. I just wondered, you know, who he was, where he came from, what he would have done if the situation had been reversed. I think I knew that answer. I also wondered if he was Japanese or Korean because we had heard that a lot of the pilots in the Japanese Air Force were Korean's. Those are all things you wonder about. I felt sorry for him in a way, but on the other hand I knew that if the �situation was reversed he'd be shooting me down. It was one of those him or me situations. FRANK BORING: Stop for a second. JUDGE OLDER: So when Ford says in his book that later designate Jap retractable landing gear fighters. FRANK BORING: Without referring to Ford. JUDGE OLDER: Why not? FRANK BORING: Well because that would be outside the realm of record what you actually thought and why. We can't reference The Maverick War Shultz, Ford or whatever what we are trying to get. It doesn't matter what he wrote. We don't want to give any credit to Ford or anybody else. FRANK BORING: All set? If you could explain to us the kind of planes that you fought and the names of what those planes were. JUDGE OLDER: The bombers that we fought were primarily Sally’s, what they called Sally’s. It was a twin engine bomber. I don't really know, I've forgotten the specs now of it. But it was a pretty good bomber. Had a top gun, bottom gun, nose gun. Reasonably fast. I don't know what the bomb load was but it was a pretty good bomber. As to the fighters. At the start of the war it seemed that the term zero was a generic term used at least among our people, I don't know where it came from, to describe any Japanese retractable landing gear fighter. But a little later on we hardly I don't think we ever referred to them as zeros. We called them, each airplane had a specific name, like there were Oscars - that was a Jap fighter, a good one. Hamps, was a squared tipped wing, squared wind tip fighter. They had a very fast reconnaissance, I shot one of those down. We called it an I45. That was as fast as a P40. Twin engine and had good altitude. �FRANK BORING: Let's move on from the first few raids. At this point had you could tell us what happened after you left Rangoon and why you? Rangoon. JUDGE OLDER: Well, Chennault rotated the squadrons from Kunming to Rangoon and our third squadron was sent up to Kunming and one of the other squadrons came down to relieve us from Rangoon. Kunming was an entirely different place than Rangoon. It is not tropical it is on the high Yunnan Plateau. At an altitude of about 6400 feet. And in the winter it is cold. Big base there, and training school and we were on alert all the time because of the threat of Japanese bombers attacking Kunming as they had before. In January the Japs sent a flight of 3 Sally’s up from Indo-China probably Hanoi and one of our flights scrambled to get them. I was in that flight and we went down South to a place called Mengzi. In the vicinity of Mengzi where we encountered them coming north and we attack them and I got the leader of that flight and we shared the victory credits on the other two. FRANK BORING: What was the routine if you will like after that. Was that the only encounter you had over the next month or so? JUDGE OLDER: Yes, then in February the 3rd squadron was sent down to Loiwing which is in Burma, but it is on the China-Burma border. It's about 60 miles north of Lashio, Burma. It sits in a valley surrounded by some pretty good mountains, had just a dirt airstrip, but it was adequate, in fact two of them. It was kind of an X shaped field, but we only used one of them for landing and take-offs. We had a lot of good action at Loiwing. FRANK BORING: Let's hold in for a second. Is that making too much noise. It is now. FRANK BORING: If you could tell us about some of the incidents that happened around the Loiwing area. �JUDGE OLDER: Loiwing was the site of a little aircraft factory that Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company had. They weren't doing anything at that time, but they had previously just assembled aircraft for the Chinese. And there was clubhouse up on the hill which had a dining hall in it. We lived in, I don't really recall very much about the places we lived. They were adequate. The airfield was good. One of the problems with Loiwing is, as time went on, the Chinese warning net disintegrated as the Japs moved north in Burma and southern China. So the warning got less and less until it dissolved completely. And that was the only place we were ever surprised by the Japs either in the air or the ground, was at Loiwing. One morning I was riding down the runway in a jeep with Tex Hill right at dawn just at that moment 20 Jap fighter came in over the mountains to the east, we had all of our aircraft lined up we didn't disperse them for two reasons, one there wasn't much of a place to disperse them , we could spread them out a little more, but the main reason we didn't disperse them was because of the lack of warning and we wanted to be able to get those things in the air as fast as possible for what little warning there was. Well, on this day there wasn't any. They came in and strafe up and down and shot up a good number of the aircraft. I think they only destroyed one or two, but they damaged a lot of them. That, as I say, is the only time that we ever surprised either on the ground or in the air. We always saw them first in the air and that makes a big difference, believe me. We could hear them talking on the radio in the air occasionally. We maintained air silence. But we could tune a frequency and hear the Japanese aircraft talking to each other and get a pretty good idea from the volume about how far away they were. Whether, couldn't pin it down to last 100 yards, but you could get a good idea of whether they were in the immediate vicinity or some distance away. I think the Japanese probably felt so good over that one dawn raid where they caught us on the ground that they came in a few days later with 20 more fighters, but his was during daytime only this time we had some warning and were sitting up waiting for them and I believe we shot down about 11 out of the 20 most of them within sight of the airfield. �And that was the last time they tried that. That was the day, I believe when it stared out badly for me. I ran out and jumped in my airplane, took off and just as the wheel were coming up I remembered that I hadn't turned the oxygen on. The oxygen bottle was in the baggage compartment in the fuselage, inaccessible from the cockpit. Because the bottles had a tendency to leak and we didn't have much in the way of supplies we turned the valve off on the ground and we left the baggage door propped open to remind us when we ran out on a scramble, if the door was open that would remind us to turn the valve on. Well, on this particular day that door was down and in the excitement I forgot all about the oxygen bottle until just as I was off the ground. Then I had to make a fast decision because I had no way of knowing whether the Japs were just about to come over the hill with 20 fighters again or whether I had 5 minutes or half hour. So I had to decide whether I had to go without oxygen or go around, circle around, land, get out or have the crew man run out and turn the oxygen on. So I finally decided I wouldn't be much good at altitudes without oxygen I'd have to take the chance. And I'm telling you that was a ride I don't want to do again that long circle, getting back in, getting stopped and looking over your shoulder and trying to fly the airplane at the same time wondering if you were going to get shot down in the landing pattern or on the ground. But fortunately I got off. And because of that I got separated and I never did join up with the main flight and later on Duke Headman joined up on my wing. And I decided that I was I was going to head out toward Thailand to see if we could pick up anybody. So we went out about, I don't know about 60 miles didn't see a thing. We were flying at 10,000 under a broken cloud layer and so I decided I'd turn around and come back and as we were coming back I look out in the distance ahead of us and I can see this plane coming. It looks to me like a radial engine. Which meant Japanese, because all of our fighters were in line engines. We were on the same level and probably… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 5 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older describes how it felt to shoot down enemy aircraft and his focus on survival, in addition to the types of planes that he fought. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/35702f7983002d508cc7a230b70e8d11.mp4 cda7b78ca91f3fdc43325046ccc64f11 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/066af3df489bbb75f3bde9ba317e3c8b.pdf a8bcadcb995126a856276c128a8e7a07 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] JUDGE OLDER: After one of the missions at Loiwing, Duke Hedman joined up on my wing and I decided that we might be able to pick up something if we headed out toward Thailand, so we went out about 60 miles and didn't see a thing. We were flying at about 10,000 ft. under a broken cloud layer, and so I turned around and headed back to Loiwing, and as we were going back, I saw coming toward us up in front, what appeared to be a Jap fighter, but I wasn't absolutely sure, but it did appear to have radial engine which would mean Japanese, because all of our fighters had M-line engines, and we passed each other on the same level, and I'd say probably 500 yards apart and I just pulled up into a steep chandelle to get a look at his markings and I was certain it was Japanese, but I wanted to see him anyway, and start back down on his tail, and he didn't hurry, he just stayed right headed toward Thailand. I felt sure he was going to do a flick turn and come back on us at any second, so I probably started firing a little bit out of range, thinking that was the only shot I was going to get. I know I hit him because the plane gave a lurch just like that, and in the next instance he just pulled the thing up to a flat loop and came right back over our heads. I could look up into the cockpit and tell you what he was wearing. He was wearing a dark blue flight suit and the fight was on and Duke and I tangled with this guy from 10,000 all the way down to I don't know where and finally he went into a hillside and that was confirmed later by a missionary on the ground who had seen this. �That was an interesting incident. Another incident there was - I was scrambled off one day with P.J. Green to go after a Jap reconnaissance aircraft and we had no idea of where he was coming come from or what altitude, but they just scrambled us off and said, go get him. So I decided I'd go up to as high as we could get reasonably, which is 27,000. At that time of the year there's a very thick haze in northern Burma, I mean really thick. You can't see horizontally, you can only see straight down. So I was looking out the side of the airplane at 27,000, looking straight down, and this Jap reconnaissance plane, the I-45, twin engine, very fast, came right out from under the trailing edge of my wing. He was about 3,000 ft. below us. I knew if I took my eyes off of him, I'd never see him again, so Green was on my right side, I just pulled over and we started down, and he never saw us. I started firing because we were coming so fast - I started firing, again probably a little bit out of range, because we were closing so fast. And I saw him - the pilot go out the left side of the airplane and pull the 'chute, but I never saw the 'chute open. As it turned out, it didn't open because they found him later. In the mean time - and then broke off - then Paul got separated from me. I got back on the ground and had to talk him back in by asking him where he was when we got separated and from that I knew where we were, I could talk him back in and he finally got in. FRANK BORING: After this, Chennault asked you to go and pick up some new airplanes, was this right around the same period of time? JUDGE OLDER: Yes, that was when - I believe that was before we got to Loiwing, before I got to Loiwing. FRANK BORING: If you could give us perhaps a highlight or a particular part of that trip that made it memorable for you. JUDGE OLDER: Yes, it was in late February and March that Chennault ordered six of us to go to the Gold Coast of West Africa and pick up six new P-40E's. The reason we were going to - the place was called �Takoradi, right near Accra on the Gold Coast - was because they were being assembled there. They had an assembly area on this field, and being test flown there, and someone had to fly them back to China. So P.J. Green, R.T. Smith, Older, Haywood, Benny Foshee and I think Link Laughlin were the six. So we flew CNAC over the Hump to Calcutta, then we got on a BOAC flying boat on the Hooghly River at Calcutta and flew across India and landed at Karachi in the bay, then went on to Sahara?, now in the Emirates, southern Arabian Peninsula and spent one overnight, then went to Batzra, spent a night or two in Batzra, then went over and landed on the Sea of Galilee in what was then Palestine and finally, on the Nile, Cairo. After a couple of days in Cairo, we got on a DC3 army DC3 - went south to Khartoum and then jumped away across Africa, Elobey, El Facha, El Geneina, and finally down to Takoradi. An interesting incident happened in El Facha which is just a mud hut village. We were there for about 45 minutes to refuel and I decided I'd walk around this little village, and I was by myself at the moment. As I turned the corner of this street, I came face to face with a full grown lioness walking down the middle of this street. I was paralyzed! I didn't know what to do so I didn't do anything, I just - I was afraid to run because - I just was afraid. So I stood there and this lioness without paying the slightest bit of attention to me, just walked right down the middle of the street, right be me. I turns out later she was the village mascot and quite tame. I don't know if she knew she was take, they thought she was tame. So that was one of the incidents that happened on the trip. We stayed in Takoradi a few days and test flew the airplanes, and the Tom Haywood and I took off with two of them. Our first return gas stop was a little place called Osogbo in the middle of Nigeria. We got there and one of us had a big bubble on one tire that had to be changed and the other airplane was having mag trouble, so we spent a couple of nights there and they finally decided in Takoradi that rather than fly in spare parts and mechanics and so forth that we should come back and pick up two new airplanes and they'd get those later, so we took the train back to Lagos and went right through the middle of the Nigerian jungle all night. No windows in �the cars incidentally, and the wildest screeches and howls you ever heard coming from the jungle and got back to Takoradi and picked up two more airplanes. This time, Benny Foshee was my wingman instead of Tom Haywood and Benny and I made the trip all the way back to China. FRANK BORING: When you returned, I understand you heard about the death of a very good friend, I wonder if you could tell us about that. JUDGE OLDER: Yes, while I was gone, the 3rd squadron and I think one or two of the - maybe all of the squadrons were at a place called Magwe, Burma, and the Japs bombed Magwe. There were two of our people killed there, one was my good friend Frank Swartz who was in my class at Pensacola and the other was an airman named Fauth. I can't think of his first name but he was a 3rd squadron airman and they were both hit by bomb fragments on the ground and I think Fauth was killed instantly and Swartz was severely injured and taken to India where he subsequently died in the hospital there. That was a great loss. Frank - Swartzy as we called him was a great guy. FRANK BORING: I wonder if you could give us your impressions of the Chinese people. You were in Kunming for a while, you got a chance to meet some of these people. What were your impressions of the Chinese? JUDGE OLDER: I liked the Chinese, I liked the Burmese too. Kunming is a large city - it doesn't like a large city but it has a large population. It had then - I would guess somewhere between 300,000 and a half a million. But by looking at the city from the air, it was just all one story buildings for the most part. It didn't look like much. But the Chinese are very cheerful for one thing, they are extremely hardworking, dedicated, loyal. Couldn't do enough for us. �FRANK BORING: Did you ever get a chance to meet either Generalissimo, Chiang Kai-shek or Madam Chiang Kai-shek, could you give us your impressions of them? JUDGE OLDER: I didn't meet either of them personally until after the war when we had a reunion in Taipei at the Grand Hotel and both Generalissimo and Madam Chiang Kai-shek were there. But my impression of Chiang from what I'd seen and heard long before I ever had a chance to meet him was that he was in many respects like Chennault, just a very single purposed, dedicated man who had spent his life trying to bring China out of the old regime and into something new and had been highly successful at it. FRANK BORING: Towards the end of your contract with AVG - I realize that this was a very difficult period of time for all of you - but as July 4th started to become closer and closer, could you give us an idea of what you were thinking about. It was being asked for you to stay on and rejoin the army air corps. There was somewhat of dissension of people who were not agreeing with the missions that were being asked to fly - these dangerous morale missions. Could you give us an idea of what your impressions were of these final month or days or… JUDGE OLDER: I think some of the problems started when we were at Loiwing in late April, maybe early May. We didn't know it at the time, but somewhere in that period, Chennault had been commissioned to Brigadier General in the US army air forces, because everyone knew that our group was slated to disband on July 4th of 1942, and as I say, we didn't know that. Some of the army air force's people started coming into China, not many but a few, and of course, we were getting feedback from India where there were quite a few of them over there. We started getting orders to fly some, what I thought were just kooky missions, like, one was to fly down and circle around in Burma the front lines. The Japs were moving up in Burma and the Chinese where Stillwell and his forces were down there. It was kind of a rapidly changing situation, but they wanted �us to go down there and fly around at low altitudes, just sort of motor around casually to let the Chinese see the insignia on our airplanes to boost their morale. My thinking was that their morale wouldn't be boosted very much by seeing us get shot down doing that kind of silly nonsense and so, why do it? So we started making some complaints about missions like that, and then they had a mission to escort Blenheim's, I think, to Chiang Mai Anyway, there were a number of things and I began to get the feelings and others too - probably most of the others - that Chennault was no longer calling the shots, that we were being used by somebody to do this kind of nonsense, and we weren't there for the purpose we came over there for, which was to fight the Japanese. So people started to get unhappy about this and we did have a meeting at one time with Chennault and everybody expressed their opinions and it got rather heated. I don't know whether anybody flat out refused to do anything; we certainly let it be known what our feelings were. It all cooled down afterwards and I remember Chennault one day was sitting outside the alert shack at Kunming, - Loiwing - and I sat down next to him, just the two of us happened to be there at the moment, and he turned to me and said, "Charlie, I don't quite understand the feelings of some of the pilots about some of these missions that we've been talking about and the resentment that they seem to have for some of them." And I said, "Well General, we don't mind risking our lives but we just don't want to throw them away, that's the feeling." He didn't say anything. Anyway, it all passed, missions went on again, but I think had we known at that time that he was a Brigadier General in the army air forces and that he obviously was being told by somebody to do these things that he never would have done on his, because it just wasn't Chennault, it was completely out of character as far as I could see, that we probably would have been more understanding, and he would have been more understanding and the whole thing would have passed by without any problem. It was just a particular time that did pass and I don't think he ever lost any respect for us and we certainly never lost any respect for him. As I say, I never saw or heard �anybody refuse to fly any mission, but we certainly did discuss them. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 6 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older discusses the loss of Frank Swartz, his impressions of the Chinese people while in Kunming, and his thoughts as their contracts with the AVG were nearing the end. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/92d2658e9ebd7e7edfcacb697f46eccb.mp4 aca7a48ac70bbc3cf742630299cf38e9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aaf0d71b82435b386a20948390995b58.pdf 4c9a9900320f5d6dd13bc30323bef98a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Judge” Older Date of interview: April 26, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 7] JUDGE OLDER: Starting in late April and early May of 1942 when we were at Loiwing, the army air force started sending in a few people preparatory to bringing many more later on and they had set up some headquarters somewhere and were starting to designate some missions for the AVG to fly, and I can remember one particular mission they had us scheduled to fly was one down into Burma in the area of a little town called Kong Hi Ping, south east of Lashio, about 60 miles where they wanted us to go down there on a fighter sweep and strafe targets of opportunity is what it amounted to. I was pretty well convinced - I was the operations officer for the 3rd squadron - I was intimately familiar with what was going on and where it was going on and I was convinced it was still held by the Chinese, even though it was Burma, but the Japs were moving up fairly fast in Burma, and I kept checking back with this army air force Intelligence Officer, telling him that I didn't think that's what he wanted to do, that Kong Hi Ping was still Chinese and, no, he said he'd check and call back and he'd check and call back and I'd talk it over with the others and still believed it wasn't right. This went on three or four five telephone calls. Anyway, we ran the mission and I happened to be leading the flight, and we went down to Kong Hi Ping and finally found a long line of trucks on a road that appeared to be coming in from the east, which could have been Thailand, but I wasn't sold yet, but that was my mission, so we strafed the trucks and set a good number of them on fire and �finally left. I was convinced - or I was not convinced that we were not strafing Chinese trucks. Fortunately we had given them enough warning by circling in the area so that I believe all of the personnel got out of the trucks and were dispersed into the jungle so we weren't killing people, we were just shooting up trucks. JUDGE OLDER: Near the end of the AVG, this is now Kunming, we were told to be in the theater at one of the hostels, I think it was hostel number one, but I'm not sure, at 8 o'clock that night for some kind of a meeting. When we got there, it turns out that the meeting was for the purpose of allowing, I think he was a Colonel then, he later became a General, in fact, he later became court-marshalled in Germany after the war - his name was Clayton Bissell. Colonel Bissell was there, and I might say, the army couldn't have sent anyone less qualified as a public relations man than this guy. He was there to tell us what we were going to do after the AVG disbanded. That got us off to a wrong start right there because we were civilians, we weren't in the army. So we thought maybe we'd like to have something to say about what we were going to do after the AVG was disbanded. Anyway, things went from bad to worse and I don't if it all ended up with catcalls and boos but it was almost that bad. It was just a very poor approach by the army to try to get us to stay in over there and not to go home after our contracts were finished. FRANK BORING: There's a couple of points I'd like you to clarify involving that. 1) why did the army want you to stay on, and 2) what were your decisions already? What decisions had you made? Were you still wondering what you were going to stay there or go home? What were your personal feelings about this? JUDGE OLDER: I didn't have any intention of staying on after the year was up when I went over there and during the time I was there. In the first place I had gotten engaged just before I left and I told my wife I'd meet her in Honolulu and we'd have a honeymoon there. That, of course, didn't work out because of the war, but I was still intending to go �home and get married. After that, I wasn't quite sure. Maybe go back in the service or what. And there were many others who felt the same way, but some did want to stay over and some did. I later came back to China in 1944 and 1945 in the 23rd Fighter Group, but I wanted go get home first before I fought any more war. FRANK BORING: Why did the army want you to stay? JUDGE OLDER: Because we were experienced fighter pilots and - the army wanted us to stay because we were an experienced fighter group and the people they were bringing in had no combat experience. Our feeling was you can get it in a hurry when you get serious, so it really wasn't all that important. FRANK BORING: There's two final questions and take your time about answering them if you want. (Inaudible) at that period in your life during that period of time which was one year of your life. JUDGE OLDER: I don't know how to lead into it. I feel that my experience in the AVG was very rewarding in several respects. In the first place I was doing something that I knew how to do, was trained for. I was fighting the fight against the enemy. I had no idea that we'd be in a world war while I was over there, it's the way it turned out. I was also seeing a good part of the world as it turned out too before I got home and that was one of the things I wanted to do when I was over there. But mostly it was a feeling of being in the right place at the right time, and that's really the story of the AVG. What we accomplished in numbers of aircraft shot down, although we shot down a lot, probably didn't change the course of the war, it helped of course. But if you recall back, in early 1942, those were the dark days of the war, the allies were losing the war on every front except one and that was where the AVG was. We were the only ones accomplishing any significant victories at that particular time. The Germans were kicking the hell out of the British in the desert, they'd already kicked them out of France. The Japanese were roaming all over the Pacific, but in one tiny place in Burma, the �AVG was winning every fight. And the significance of that is not how many airplanes we shot down, but that that was a morale booster for everybody on the allies' side, because the media played that up, as they should because this was news. You could pick up the paper at home and read about all the bad stuff on one side, but on the other side, there'd be an article about the AVG knocking the hell out of the Japanese. FRANK BORING: One final question. What do you feel about being called a Flying Tiger? JUDGE OLDER: Time out! FRANK BORING: …from you, is your own personal - not just the AVG or all that, you've mentioned AVG already which is the Flying Tigers, but just the term Flying Tigers. JUDGE OLDER: In my own eyes, it has a great deal of prestige for the reasons that I've already mentioned, but I think the main idea - I think I'm most proud of the fact that I had, for one reason for another I made the decision to resign from the Marine Corps before the war at a time when this country needed somebody in China and China certainly needed us, and to go over with these other volunteers, and in effect, walk into the unknown, because we really didn't know what we were walking into. I think that's the thing I like about it best. FRANK BORING: Where do you think the AVG fits in terms of the history of China? JUDGE OLDER: That's a big subject! I don't know! I think the AVG's part in the defense of China was significant for much the same reasons morale reasons. The Chinese had been engaged with the Japanese on the losing side for five years in 1941-42. That was between Japan and China having started in 1937, and the Japanese had bombed Chinese cities without any real opposition, and the Chinese had just been subjected to war in all of its forms for five years, and on the losing side. So they were really hanging on the �ropes in 1941 and 1942. In fact, they were hanging on the ropes in 1940 when, without warning, the British closed the Burma Road. They subsequently re-opened it but that was a real body blow when in 1940, the British closed the Burma Road, because that was the only lifeline going into China. But then they re-opened it again. Mainly it was the idea that the Chinese were now on the winning side, that the Americans there to help them were shooting down Japanese and they had visible evidence of this, and this was a tremendous morale boost, something they needed more than anything else at the time outside of some real tangible help. FRANK BORING: One last question, just about what the AVG did in solving [?] in terms of the keeping China in the war? JUDGE OLDER: I wasn't a part of that. I was in the hospital at the time - and how much good? That's a matter for dispute, I guess. FRANK BORING: This will be the last one… JUDGE OLDER: From time to time I hear people apply the term "mercenary" to the AVG, and I would like to respond to that because I think it's utter nonsense. My definition of a mercenary as that term has been used historically applying to the military, has been someone who's willing to fight for either side, for compensation. There was no one in the AVG that was willing to fight for either side. We knew why we were there. We knew which side we were fighting for, who we were fighting against, and there was never any question about that. So that mercenary term is just a term of denigration that has no application whatever to our group. FRANK BORING: Did Olga live up to the original advertising that she was…? JUDGE OLDER: She was a very striking woman, she was very pretty and good figure, and she stood out like a lighthouse in Burma because there was no-one else around anything like her. I think in some way, she kind of gave a boost to the young bucks in the AVG, just being �there, just by being able to see a good-looking woman reminded you of some the things you left behind. FRANK BORING: This is the end of the interview. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Older_Judge_1991-04-26_v07 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Charles Older Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-04-26 Title A name given to the resource Charles Older interview (video and transcript, 7 of 7), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Older by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Older trained as a pilot in Long Beach and Pensacola, earning his Navy wings in 1940. He then served in the Marine Fighting Squadron One and was qualified in gunnery, dive bombing, and carrier landings. Older joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in August 1941 and sailed to Burma. He served as a Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron "Hell's Angels," and participated in the squadron's first combat over Rangoon where he downed two enemy aircraft. By the time the AVG disbanded in 1942, he had 10 total victories. After leaving the AVG, Older joined the US Army Air Forces and returned to China in 1944 with the 23rd Fighter Group. After the war, Older left the Air Force as a Lt. Col. and earned a law degree from the University of Southern California. He practiced law until becoming a superior court judge for Los Angeles. In the 1970s, he gained notoriety for presiding over the Charles Manson murder trials. In this tape, Older describes the meeting with General Bissell near the end of the AVG and his plans as his contract ended. He also expresses what his experience in the AVG meant to him and how it felt to be known as a Flying Tiger. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c85e139e93faf0887b78fa26d70830bf.mp4 4098b68548853e90db9ca28b7a4ffef7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f56f2cacd1fe630e50eb672cf6b8f7fa.pdf 351a45308f01801af883c581d60ef61d PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles Bond Date of Interview: February 23, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FB: If you could tell us, what were you doing prior to even hearing about the AVG. CB: Prior to hearing about the AVG, being in bombers and the United States staying out of the war but wanting to help had set up an arrangement to ferry Lockheed Hudson bombers from Burbank to Montreal to turn over the RCAF, the Royal Canadian Air Force, and then they would ferry them on to the British. They selected a lot of we bomber pilots to go on TDY to Long Beach, California, pick up the bombers, ferry them to Montreal, come back with a parachute and go again, which became very boring. Of course, I was still in the bomber business and then, I got a phone call and that was my old buddy, it was "Jebbo" Brogger who knew I knew I wanted to get in fighters which I was trained in at Kelly field in 1939, and let me know that I had a chance to get in fighters if I was interested, and he gave me the name of – I think it was – wait a minute – FB: Let's just start with you got the phone call from your buddy. CB: Yeah, I got this phone call from my buddy at McDill Air Force Base in Tampa, Florida, he said, "Charlie, you still want to get in fighters?", and I said, "You bet", so he gave me the name of Skip Adair whom he knew. He said, "You call him" and he gave me his phone number "and talk to him, and he'll tell you what your chance is to fly with the AVG in Burma to protect the Burma Road for the Chinese and under a guy by the name of Claire Chennault who used to be in the Air Force". I thanked him and I immediately called Adair and then he gave me the phone number of a Colonel Green whom I don't know this day who was in the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. "You just call him and tell him that you want to get in the AVG and he'll ask you a few questions". So I did that but I didn't do that until the following day, I got to talking to some of my buddies, Jim Cross 1 �and George Burguard who had come with me from McDill to do the same ferrying job and when I told them about the story and they were interested, so they said, "Look Charlie, we want to go too", and I said, Well, I'll mention your names", so the next day I called this number and Colonel Green answered and he asked me a few questions, I told him who I was, my qualifications and all and I said "I want to get in fighters" and I mentioned Jim Cross and George Burguard's name and he says, "Okay", and he says, "Probably within the next day you'll get a wire telling you what to do". Lo and behold, the next day my Commander got a wire at Long Beach. This was the forerunner of the old air transport command, it was called the Western Division of the United States Army Air Force Ferrying Division, just set up. He called me in, boy, and he was mad! "What the hell's going on?" Well, I explained it all to him and finally he settled down and sure enough, he had to publish orders that very day releasing Charlie Bond, Jim Cross and George Burguard from the United States Army Air Corps and I had to resign my reserve commission, all connections with the armed forces of the United States and I was told to report to my home in Dallas, Texas and I'd be notified later. So that's what happened. I went home and stood by, and eventually – I'd say within about a week, I got a letter from a CAMCO Organization, Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company. which later on turns out to be a background for the AVG and they gave me instructions to report to San Francisco, and I think it was early September, about the 10th of September of 1941 and paid my way, airline ticket and all, and that's how I ended up going to San Francisco and finding a lot of other characters just about like me, ready to go to China. FB: Now what was – when you met with the people in San Francisco at CAMCO – when you got to San Francisco and you got a chance to actually talk to the people at CAMCO, what did they tell you to expect – what did they expect of you and what did they tell you to expect when you arrived in China? CB: Well, when I got to San Francisco, the first – and I checked in with registration of course – and some guy came up to me and I can't remember who it was – I think it was one of 2 �the other guys who had already reported, and he says, "Just don't say anything to anybody what you're doing here, just register." And I registered and it ends up we had about 25 of the other characters there, and then we began to talk, and I recall now that I was told by Skip Adair the general concept of it was I would go over as a wing man, I would be paid $600 a month and this would all be in writing, and it would be for a year's contract and we were relief being organized to defend the Burma Road for the movement of lend-lease supplies up into China from Rangoon. He did say that also, you will get $500 for every airplane you shoot down, and this of course, made me perk up my ears. And we discussed this among all of the guys and they had been told the same thing, and we ultimately signed a contract which essentially said everything, but the $500 was not in the contract, however, it turned out,they faithfully did pay us $500 for every aircraft we shot down. FB: Why would you want to go to China – what was your motivation there? CB: I really jumped at the idea when I first heard about this from my buddy in McDill. I was trained in – at that date in those times, we called it Pursuit at Kelly Air Force Base, I was an Air Force guy, and lo and behold – and I've remembered this since '38 and '39 and the war was in Europe and we were trying to stay out of it in the United States – sort of, the hand-writing was on the wall – and the bomber concept was being pushed hard by the United States Army Air Corps and they began to expand the bombardment forces, so they took our class graduating in February '49 to pour into the expansion of bomber outfits and it took the top risk deal alphabetically. Well, Bond being it's top – but I was trained in Pursuits – lo and behold when they published – or the orders came out – I was assigned to second bomb group of V18's and D17's at Langley Air Force Base. I wanted to get back in fighters and also – now the three reasons why I went to the American Volunteer Group – I wanted to get back in fighters, and I wanted a regular commission. I figured if I went to the Far East – Burma and China, I was convinced, I was really convinced that we were gonna be in a war ultimately with the Japanese, and after a year I'd have combat experience and then I'd come back home and be on – I figured they couldn't help but give 3 �me a commission because I'd have combat experience. And the third reason, I wanted to buy my mother and father a home which was better than than the one they were living in, and that's the reasons I went to China. FB: What did you know about China? CB: China, in my opinion, was the other side of the earth and of course, being young, this is adventure and all and "Gee! – this will be interesting". I didn't know much more about China than what I studied in History class in High School and by the way, I never went to college before that.d FB: What about the Japanese, what did you know about the Japanese? CB: I knew where Japan was on a world map, I knew the Japanese were oriental, I could tell a Jap when I looked at one. FB: I was just thinking in terms of during that period of time there was a lot of – you'd go to a movie and there was always these films in front of – and newsreels and whatnot about the things that were happening in Europe and things that were happening in Japan, I was just wondering if that had any effect on you. CB: Oh definitely, that's – I was convinced based on what I was reading in newspapers, and being in the military – in the Air Force, and flying bombers and all, and you know, the war in Europe was already taking place and shaping up and President Roosevelt, listening to him talk, like I do now – president's talk – there was no doubt in my mind that the United States was going to be in a war, and everything seemed to fit for me, so the overriding reason is, I wanted to get back in fighters, so if there was a war I'd be fighting with fighters, not in bombers, and this gave me a year to get some money, and at $600 a month compared to $125 a month as Second Lieutenant, this was great, plus the adventure being in the Far East, and I just figured I would achieve my objectives and, fortunately, I did. FB: Once you were in San Francisco and they had you signed up and ready to go, you boarded a ship, can you tell us anything about the trip itself. 4 �CB: Well, after we were at San Francisco – staying by the way in the St. Francis Hotel for a fabulous week or two, we boarded ship, the Boschfontein, a Dutch motor ship in the harbor at San Francisco on 25th September, 1941, and I think we were the second contingent, or perhaps third contingent, certainly the second contingent– some thirty or forty of us with some Chinese missionaries and some American missionaries going back, and we sailed from the harbor on the 25th September, 1941, and for some reason or other – I don't know this date – I decided to write a letter to my Mom and Dad when we sailed under the Golden Gate Bridge because somehow or another I felt this was an historic time in my life and that was the starting of the first entry in my diary which produced that book. FB: Of the trip itself on the boat, one of the things I found interesting is that, you knew why you were going there, but your passports were rather creative in terms of what you guys were going as. CB: By the way, when I went over – we act separately completely from all relations with the armed forces, and my passport I picked up at the hotel from some of the administering people from CAMCO, Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company, my contracts and all, and my passport that identified me as a clerk, and this surprised me, but that was explained to me, that well, you know this is – not a lot of people know about this, and certainly we don't want the Japanese to know about this, and so forth and so on, and I began to check with my buddies, and Jeez, various names and occupations – it was crazy. FB: What were some of these occupations that you ran into? CB: One was a teacher, one was a musician – I think that was one of the characters, I forget who he was – of all things, he wasn't a musician. But it was all comical – didn't make sense. FB: You knew some of the guys that were on the trip, and you got to know some of the guys as the time went on, what were some of your impressions of some of the people you were going to China with? 5 �CB: We boarded the ship, "Boschfontein", Jim Cross and George Burguard and I, we'd all met at the hotel, and we had become associated with the other 20 or 30 of them, and we rapidly became very close with one another, all of use of a sort of military background, in other words, we came from the military, either army, navy, or marine corps – army air corps which is air force later on, and the marine corps and the navy, and our group which was representative of the overall outfit of about 52% navy pilots, some six or seven marines and the remaining air force, that was just about the cut of 35 or 40 of us aboard ship. Pappy Boyington was in our group, R.T. Smith, no Snuffy Smith, an air force guy, Dick Rossi was aboard, Bob Prescott who later became boss of the Flying Tiger Airline, so we rapidly became very close to one another, and before you knew it, we were acting as a typical bunch of fighter guys that had been together for years. FB: How did the trip………started out as a letter to your parents and that eventually motivated you to write – don't mention the book, I just want to talk about the diary itself. Start off with the fact that you started as a letter to your parents under the San Francisco Bridge. CB: As we sailed out of San Francisco Bay under the Golden Gate Bridge, it was late in the evening, the sun had begun to set, and I remember going out on deck deep in thought and I actually remember wondering, gee, I wonder if I'm doing the right thing, and did a little soul searching and then went to dinner and went back in my bunk and I decided to let my folks, naturally I was thinking about my folks, also Doris, a girlfriend I'd left, and I thought I'd write them a letter and I sat down and I – for some reason or other I had purchased two or three of these little composition books and I started making my first entry: San Francisco, 25th of September, 1941, and I began to describe my thoughts: Am I doing the right thing, gee, China? Half way round the world? Young. I knew what I wanted to do and this made me think that I'm doing the right thing and I was content, but I ended up writing about three or four pages that night and then went to sleep. And the next day, come the evening, for some reason or other, I decided I'll write some more, 6 �and as a result I ended up writing a diary for my entire, almost exactly a year, every night just as faithfully and religiously as I could, I'd enter my writing for that day, my thoughts, my events, be they good or bad, my anger, my fears, my complete happiness, elations, my fights I had with some of the guys, the haircuts I had, I always included all of the events I possibly could, and I ended up with about four booklets full of events including – it was really my life for that one year, and ended up with August 17th, 1942 when I came back home and landed in Miami. FB: The diary you speak of talks about the trip over and you had mentioned also that a group of young pilots and how they acted and all that, what was the trip like? CB: Well, it took us almost two months to go from San Francisco to Rangoon, Burma with stops in between, and of course, the first few days – I think it took us six days, or seven days to go from San Francisco to Honolulu where we first ………we began to get in sort of a – not a rut, but a routine of how we would get up in the morning, go to breakfast – the ship couldn't have been over 200 ft. long – a small one. We didn't have much recreation. Eventually they put in a swimming pool for us, they had good food, little Javanese waiters, they had a bar and we made use of the bar – many times too much. We could walk around the ship, sailing most of the entire trip all the way over to Rangoon from San Francisco was really relatively very calm seas. I was worried at first about getting seasick but that didn't bother me. It took me about three days to get used to the drumming of the motors; this was a motor ship with diesel oil and running propellers and the sound – the droning of the sound – it took a little time to get used to that, at first I got headaches from it, but never any seasickness. We ended up in – if you will – hangar flying, even in those days, but none of us had been in combat but telling about stories, you know, where bombers, fighters – some of the guys had just graduated from flying schools, others like – I was actually a First Lieutenant at the time I entered. We'd talk about our earliest experiences. I didn't realize it at the time but two or three of the guys 7 �were married, the rest of us were bachelors, though some of the guys may have been divorced I don't recall, but we were young FB: (That's a good place to stop) 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Bond_Charles_1991-02-23_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bond, Charles R., Jr. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-23 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Bond interview (video and transcript, 1 of 12), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charlie Bond by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles R. "Charlie" Bond was Vice Squadron Leader of the First Pursuit Squadron "Adam and Eves" of the American Volunteer Group (AVG). Recruited by Skip Adair in 1941, he was inspired by photos of shark-mouthed Tomahawks of No. 112 Sqadron, RAF. He was the first to paint his P-40 in similar markings, setting the precedent for what became the trademark of the Flying Tigers. He shot down six Japanese fighters and one bomber. After the AVG disbanded, he rejoined the US Army Air Forces School of Applied Tactics to train new fighter pilots. In this tape, Bond describes his background before joining the American Volunteer Group and his journey overseas from San Francisco to Rangoon. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f321f246c5e5cd5a2c099a635fff2d4.mp4 e8b3325febdce08dc23f49462f152493 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ab05ed2270700e8f8600444743391a47.pdf c0d7d6eda8825c5bbe7a73182eb38dd5 PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles Bond Date of Interview: February 23, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 10] FB: Tell us about buzzing the… CB: On the ferry trip when we took off from Karachi, I think our first leg through horrible haze and through dead reckoning navigation, our first place was Jodphur?, India, about the central part of India. Then from there we'd fly on straight down to Calcutta. The city of Agra, where the Taj Mahal was, was sort of en route, and I got thinking about it – the haze was so bad that we gradually had to get lower so I could do some piloting, know where I was, and I was leading the flight, and as we got closer, you could see the beautiful Taj Mahal from a distance. I talked myself into coming down real low, the other guys of course were right with me flinging out, and we turned – we couldn't have been over 50ft. because I remember looking over straight opposite and seeing the Taj Mahal and we circled it just as tight a circle as we could go and then took on off and went on down to Calcutta and as we entered Calcutta where the British were fearful of Japs even coming on over into India, so they had the more prestigious air and for any airplanes coming to Dum Dum Airport I think it was called. We had to fly down what you call corridors and one of the corridors was right down the middle of Hougli? River that flows past Calcutta into the bay. You're supposed to be below 2,000 ft. to identify yourself and then make a right turn at certain time. I got down to about 200 ft. We were right flat just practically in between the taller buildings, flying down that river and the end of the river goes right by the airport, so of course we couldn't get lost. Here we were screaming past me in a P-43, a great deal over there at that time, a little like a zero and with the other P40's following me. If I remember correctly I think there were a total of six of us and we 1 �circled the airport and came in and landed – the usual combat type landings. I remember the operations officer making a comment later on to us – by the way this was sort of a headquarters for CNAC – Chinese National Airways Corporation which was a Chinese airline – making a comment, "You guys are the wildest pilots I've ever seen in my life", but to my knowledge nothing ever got back to the old man that we were in trouble. Everybody enjoyed it! FB: You also at this time currently met some AVG ground crew people who had actually quit. Can you tell us about that? CB: I believe this was in – on the way back we got into Calcutta, we wanted to be sure that the aircraft was in good enough commission and I remember we had to pick up a couple of Chinese pilots flying P-43's since I was going back, and we stayed there a few days and I recall – I don't recall the name of the airman, but a there were a few of them that we ran into in the Great Eastern Hotel in Calcutta. They were on their way back home and we found out they were just fed up and again this was that bad morale when you sit and you don't do anything, and boredom sets in and disgust and confusion, and drinking and so forth and so on and they just decided to quit and go home. FB: And what about once you got back and Chennault told you there were some problems with the pilots too. Apparently there was ……… CB: After we took off from Calcutta we went up to Dinjan and then that was a flight over the hump, flying in a P-43 leading these other guys in the P-40's, single engine airplanes and just dead reckoning navigation, and that's the first time I'd flown my own airplane across the hump. But just opposite Loiwing, as we were going to Kunming, the old man happened to be at Loiwing, he and third squadron was in deep combat and then also I think Tex Hill was second – sort of a conglomeration of first, second and third pilots and airplanes. Of course we were getting low on everything and they were getting hit continually by the Japanese still trying to wipe 'em out, pre the time of actually the ground troops trying to enter southern China. So the old man – I checked in with the 2 �Loiwing ground station instead of a P-43 was [???] communication boys to talk to someone and lo and behold the old man came on and told me to bring the airplanes into Loiwing and I remember distinctly contesting the old man. I think I said something like, "Are you Chennault?" and trying to identify and I made up my mind to sound like him. So we turned and we recovered all the airplanes at Loiwing and turned some of those new P-43's over to them, then the pilots picked up some of the weary ones and I stayed in my P-43 then we were going on to Kunming. We didn't stay at Loiwing too long, didn't get a chance to talk to the pilots except – we were so busy that talking about the intensity of the fighting and it seemed like they were getting over-powered and getting tired, of course, and out of supplies and then we got up to Kunming, after laying there and talking to the grounded pilots, I felt the same type of atmosphere as – getting tired, no action at Kunming and a few of the pilots were leaving and the ground crew too. FB: How did that affect you? CB: It was about this time, actually earlier, that we began to – after December 7th, 8th, we began amongst all of us to talk about possible induction, what's gonna happen to us. Here we are, an American volunteer group, what's gonna happen? We even questioned the old man at times, are we gonna be inducted. We began to hear rumors that he was gonna be inducted and become a brigadier general, and it was about that time that it happened, and this was another thing that sort of caused confusion – what's gonna happen to us. Some of the guys I think began to worry about that. I didn't wanna be inducted, personally. I wanted a regular commission. And is so turned out that I personally went to Chunking in the office of General Bissell personally and told him, "I'll stay here". I told the old man, if I get a regular commission – of course, he rarely dismissed me and said it'd take an Act of Congress. But this is the – I remember talking to a lot of the other pilots – a lot of us felt the same way. I think that had the representatives of the army air corps that came up, and I'm talking about colonel types and even General Bissell – I think if they had approached us in a different manner rather than than dominating, you're gonna do this and do that. 3 �Remember, a lot of these guys, they went to the AVG to get out of service. I remember personally myself that it a little bit demanding. We were tired, combat weary, no doubt, and he was talking to some war weary guys and we were low men on totem pole on supplies and I guess the old man had his problems too, in fact, I know he did. I saw weariness in his face. We were tired and morale was getting bad. Finally, later on [???] did talk to us and officially we were – I got off my subject. FB: We'll get into Bissell in a minute, I'll return to that. There's one other major incident that we'd like you to talk about. Apparently there's a period in May when 25 bombers caught the AVG by surprise at Paoshan and you managed to get a plane in the air but you got shot and you shot one bomber and you ran out of ammo, and then you were attacked by three Zeros and had to bail out on a Chinese cemetery? I that all accurate? If you could talk about that incident. CB: If I were asked what the most gratifying and satisfying event in my AVG life was and what the worst and most horrible catastrophic and traumatic incident in my AVG experience, I would mention the day at Rangoon that I shot three airplanes down and possibly a fourth one on one 30 or 40 minute combat mission. I was jubilant, but at Paoshan when I was shot down the first time in flames, I assure that was not only humiliating but pretty demoralizing, and I must confess it was my own fault. I made a lot of mistakes that a fighter pilot shouldn't make and I think it stemmed from utter confidence, supreme confidence, over confidence. I'll make a short story of this. As I say, at Kunming, we weren't getting in combat, but the third squadron and combination of third section and first squadron at Loiwing were just catching poundings from all directions and continuous and the old man had to do something. The ground troops, the Japanese army was approaching the southern border of China through Burma, and the old man decided that he needed a little bit more support in that quarter of the southern,. extreme southwestern tip of China. There was a little field called Paoshan just across the border from – Bob Neale came in one day and said, "We're gonna have some action". We 4 �took I think it was eight airplanes to Paoshan with a mission of – several missions really – to try to support the retreating Chinese, at least make an appearance over them. We didn't particularly care for that. Also air defense in a an air defense posture, strictly innocent posture. Also with a forthcoming efforts of some, last straw efforts, to stop the Japanese from penetrating the southern tip of China and entering the back door if you will. It would have been annihilating to China, so with those missions in mind, that's the reason he deployed us down there and eventually the outfit at Loiwing had to evacuate to another airfield closer up towards us at Paoshan, I forget where that was. But we lost eventually [???]. But in the meantime, we'd been there only a day or two at Paoshan and no warning at all. Bob Neale and I, I remember this very vividly, Bob Neale and I were cleaning our pistols in the alert shack and Bob Neale ran in and says, "The bombers are coming, or the Japs are coming, get in your airplane." We rushed out of course, and my airplane happened to be the closest one to the alert shack. As crew chief, I'd be all ready to start an airplane. We looked up and we could see the first wave of about 25 Japanese bombers in great big Vee. I'm told, later on I found out that a C54 type aircraft, a four engine airplane that we'd given the Japs earlier, was actually leading that bomber flight and the rest of them were Japanese bombers. But I didn't realize this at the time, didn't pay any attention to it. Bob Neale saw this all so he started shooting his pistol in the air and said, "Too late, get in your ditches, get in your ditches!" But I had already jumped in the airplane, engine was running. Sitting there and looking up and I thought, I can make it, I can make it. Then I was the only one in the airplanes. I disregarded Bob, number one mistake. I shoved the throttle forward, just sitting in the airplane, I hadn't had my seat belt on and my parachute not strapped in, my helmet not on, canopy open. As I stared down the grass field, I knew I wasn't gaining speed, my flaps were still down. I upped those, nearly nosed up as a result of that, but I finally got in the air and I just barely cleared the rocks at the end of the field, and then I realized that I wasn't strapped in. I got strapped in, seat belt, communications, helmet and oxygen mask. Then I was climbing up off to the 5 �left and at the same time looking around, keeping the bombers in sight, and I realized I wasn't gaining any altitude and my engine was heating up too. Suddenly it dawned on me, I hadn't even raised my landing gear. I upped my landing gear and I thought, "It's pretty warm [???]" I looked back and I saw a second wave of 25 bombers coming over. They were some 18,000 ft. at least. I remember I went 20,000 ft. to get above 'em eventually. I was too late to get to them so I figured I'd catch the second ones. The first 25 waves had already dropped all their bombs on the city rather than Paoshan. The city was flooded with refugees coming out of Burma, and the desolation there, I'll never forget it as long as I live after I drove through it later on. It was beautiful bombing, and it just decimated them. I finally got to altitude, about 2,000 ft. above the second wing, caught up with them, and I'm headed down toward the bomber. They dropped their bombs the same way. I remember getting in position and making the first runs on the extreme right hand guys. Formation – beautiful formation – 25 airplanes. I remember my tracers going in an airplane and I saw bits of the – one of the cowls flying off and I came back out to – making those passes – he began to drop off and smoke was coming out of him and I saw him go down towards the overcast – dense smoke – I figured he's done for, so I let him go, I figured I'd shot him down. Then I started after a second one. The second one began to pull off and he started some smoke coming out which was a bluish color and I had been warned about this tactic, that what he was doing was making like he was damaged. You always go after a lame duck so he kept me from going after the others. I started after him, but I was never sure I shot him down. Last time I saw him, he was going towards the overcast, but he was still [???] flying. I figured I'd gotten one for sure and one probable. I remember about that time getting ready to go up and make another pass. I started in on a pass, nothing happened. I'm convinced I had run out of ammunition. In my excitement, thinking I had 25 bombers coming and I'm just gonna eat 'em up, and here I'd run out of ammunition. I think also I was probably holding my purse too long. Again I got tumbling ammunition and inaccuracy. At any rate, it was time to go 6 �back, I'm not sure I know where I am low on gas. I turned around and come back and I forgot completely in my excitement and jubilation about knocking a bomber down and all and coming back and successful and all, I finally found out where I was. I even felt greater then. I came down across the field. Never thinking about fighters possibly involved, and it made sense, here's such an attack, they didn't need fighters. I tried to call a ground radio station but that character was in a ditch so I couldn't get any response. I thought before I land I'll just make my victory roll and I came down and buzzed the field in a victory roll and then I turned around to make my traffic pattern, normal traffic pattern. I thought I'll widen my traffic pattern to fly over the city to see the damage which was disastrous. I became completely entrapped in that while I was making my – and then towards my approach to the field, throttling back, put my flaps down, my wheels down, and as I started putting my wheels down, I heard a loud explosion. I thought, gee, that's my hydraulic system. I'd been having trouble with my hydraulic system or landing gear. Then I reached down to recycle it and then I pulled my hand back. I looked down – it was fire coming out from the rear. Then I knew something, I turned and looked back and it was three Zeros right on my tail. I hunched – I remember hunching to get my [???] up behind my armor plate because the shells, the ammo had gone through my fuselage tank which was right in the back that had emptied fuel but had [???] fumes but was a perfect thing for explosion. That's what exploded and then the flames began to become to curl around my legs up in the cockpit. Just for a split second, I gave up. Just for a split second I gave up. Then I thought, you can't do that. Then I thought, I'm out of ammunition – this is all much faster than I can tell it. I remember pulling back the – rolling back the windshield. Then I said, "The flames kept getting closer so I unbuckled my seat belt. 7 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Bond_Charles_1991-02-23_v10 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bond, Charles R., Jr. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-23 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Bond interview (video and transcript, 10 of 12), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charlie Bond by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles R. "Charlie" Bond was Vice Squadron Leader of the First Pursuit Squadron "Adam and Eves" of the American Volunteer Group (AVG). Recruited by Skip Adair in 1941, he was inspired by photos of shark-mouthed Tomahawks of No. 112 Sqadron, RAF. He was the first to paint his P-40 in similar markings, setting the precedent for what became the trademark of the Flying Tigers. He shot down six Japanese fighters and one bomber. After the AVG disbanded, he rejoined the US Army Air Forces School of Applied Tactics to train new fighter pilots. In this tape, Bond discusses the period when the pilots were concerned over the future of the American Volunteer Group and their possible induction, in addition to the most memorable event in his life in the AVG that took place at Paoshan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d848417cd17597604a4404f87de8436a.mp4 e9b8c2f516221d1f10c495910f624a2b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8aba6e9b2d9d079b37031265eb3a3ab4.pdf c40edd976b90437df783692256f05bfd PDF Text Text RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interview Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles Bond Date of Interview: February 23, 1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 11] CB: Then I made up my mind I said, "I've gotta get out of this, so I rolled back my canopy to get it all the way back, then I leaned forward and unbuckled my seat belt to get away from the fire because it began to come up around my back, it was already around here, then I closed my eyes and went through the procedure of half roll. I figured when I got to the half roll. By the way, I was pulled up because I was on my approach from about 200 ft. Later on, the guys told me I got up about 500 ft. When I thought I was on my back I just turned lose the stick to get out. Actually I'd only turned over about 90 degrees, but when I leaned out, the wind blast pulled me out and I had forgotten to disconnect my radio linkage and that pulled into my neck that flesh was already burned and tore. That was the biggest injury I had of that. But it tore lose, but I couldn't feel any of that. I was just interested in getting out of the airplane. I missed the tail surface and the next thing I knew I was tumbling because I saw the sky and then the ground so then I reached over and pulled the ripcord and instantly it opened up and by the time I was about 50 ft. off the ground. I slowed down enough and hit in a rice paddy area that had just been ploughed up and [???] for a foot and a half in diameter and I hit and rolled over on my back. I got out of my parachute, then I started running to get behind something – I was afraid they'd strafe me. I ran through a wet rice paddy area and one of my boots came off, sucked in mud. I realized I was in a cemetery. The Chinese bury their people in a dome, several feet high, and I was running – was gonna run over to get behind one of them and look at these Zeros. These three Zeros began to circle and I was afraid they'd strafe me, at least I could stay behind the dome. Then I felt something burning on my back, and I realized that my 1 �coveralls were burning and it was a little strange, so I laid down in that and then got up and I looked at my hands and of course they'd begun to swell up and burn, then I felt my head – something on my head – I reached up and one of the bullets had just managed to pass by the armor plate, just enough to tear open my cloth helmet and graze my head where it started bleeding, a little cut. When I brought my hand down, it was blood on it and I thought, I've had it. The next thing I thought was, they're gonna strafe me so I got hunkered down behind one of these domes. Then I saw a Chinaman coming towards me, he had one hand behind his back. They were out in the field too, for the bombing raid, they'd gone to the cemetery. Just a Chinese coolie. I started going through the motion of a telephone. When the Chinese talk on the telephone, they always say, "Wa! Wa! Wa! Wa! Wa! Wa! And their inflection means something different. So I went through that routine. He stopped and then I guess it finally dawned on him that I wasn't a Jap, so he dropped his hand down and it had a huge rock in it. Then he came on over towards me and he realized that – he looked at me and finally motioned for me to follow him. I was right off the edge of the airfield, so he took me up to the edge of the airfield where there was a bunch of huts and that's where I got to a phone. Then they called somebody and I eventually got a hold of Doc Richards, and he was on the other side of the city in a hostel, and of course he came over in a jeep and by the time he got to me, I was in shock and everything else, and making comments that I thought I was gonna die. I'd like to go back to – and to me, nowadays when I think back at this, the very key thing that happened when I bailed out, I was so afraid that my parachute wouldn't open, I was so afraid that they were gonna strafe me, that I openly aloud, prayed to God, "Save me, God save me." Of course, I remember 'em strafing either Izzy? Morton or somebody in a parachute down at Rangoon and I guess the Lord did save me. FB: Can we pause for a second? CB: For me, it's worth relating from a standpoint of aerial combat was when I was shot down a second time, where I made a few mis – not really mistakes, over confidence. Then on a 2 �– really a funny episode that might be worthwhile describing what happened in China as a result of the war – of all the airmen talking to us at great length about, "You've got to go down and see the red light district." So one night, Bob Neale and I said, "Okay, let's go." That was something. And I assure you, we just walked through it. FB: This all came at around this time, right? Bissell arrived, General Bissell arrived and he made a speech to your group. Can you describe that? CB: I'm not sure exactly what time Bissell came onto the scene, but it was during this – as the buildup began to build up in our minds as rumors and speculations and all, what's gonna happen to us, he showed up in Chunking, and of course he was the Supreme Air Force type commander, over Chennault and he and Stillwell were sort of opposites, army and air corps. They were interested, hindsight now, that I'm talking about. General Hap Arnold was interested in getting our outfit [??] over there. The old man, he wanted to keep us, he wanted replenishments and just sort of continue on and continue on as a fighting unit because of the experience we had, rather than just be completely replaced. But he, General Chennault, he knew our morale situation and he knew we were tired and I give him full credit, he gave complete compassionate consideration to our situation and didn't – "You do what you want to do." I'll never forget him for that and he told each one of us that. As a matter of fact he told us, "I don't blame you". But he was gonna stay, he was already a Brigadier General. I think it was the first time we had one of the air force representatives talk to us. General Bissell decided to come down and talk to us from Chunking, and we had a big meeting, sort of a dinner type banquet and then General Bissell made a talk to us with the idea of trying to influence us to stay and be inducted on the spot without a lot of explanation of really how it would be done, what will happen to each one of you all, and of course, there were a lot of questions in mind, whether we'd get promoted or what. At that time I was making $750 a month and $500 for every airplane I shot down and being inducted back as Second Lieutenant, reserve. I couldn't see it. And this was the way a lot of the other guys – a lot of them knew I wanted a regular 3 �commission. They'd heard me say outright, "If I get a regular commission, I ought to stay in." A lot of them I know told me. I remember "Buster" Keeton definitely saying this to me one time. And Bob Neale talked the same way. But the way General Bissell talked to us – I remember I didn't become outraged but I thought it just wasn't fair. So he didn't impress us very much. FB: What did he say? CB: He talked in terms of, patriotism, duty. In a way it was a fair speech, but the insinuation or the inference that we got – tired, demoralized guys, naturally seeking a negative reaction if you will, I admit probably that was an element. It was too much of a demanding thing for us, and looking back, I know at the time I was saying, "I'd stay right now if you'd give me a regular commission". But the other guys, "I ain't about to go back, I'm tired and I wanna go home." Some said they wanna go home first but they'd come back. But the short, brief, to a certain extent, inconsiderate, not near the approach General Chennault had talked to us about, it just left a lot of us cold. I remember distinctly discussions with some of the other guys later on we decided amongst us, "I'm mad." It didn't go over. FB: What did you do the last days? July 4th was approaching. What was that like? CB: After that the old man –the Japanese tried to cross the river and he used primarily Tex Hill's outfit, a combination of a lot of the first, second and third squadrons with actual bomber – we had some makeshift type bombers – put 'em on the bottom of the P-40, particularly the P-40E. Looking back now I think that's the reason the old man had me bring those P-40E's into Loiwing, with that in mind. I wrote in my book I remember – this wasn't necessarily my own idea or thought but I've read since there's been a lot others thought – the only thing that kept the Japanese from successfully invading southern China, across one bridge, across that deep, mild deep gorge, the Salween river, was that one little bridge – was the logistics problem of getting tanks and everything across that one bridge, that bottle-neck choke point, and a handful of P-40's that began to bomb his 4 �columns on the hairpin turns of the roads going down, and coming up on the other side, plus the bridge itself, just completely destroyed their effort. And I think, looking back now, the world situation was taking on a different strategic aspect. The Japanese were taking a pounding by that point by the United States Navy in the Pacific and they began to change their tune a little. And I think that was one of the reasons. The change in the world situation and the Pacific. The logistic problems of that bridge and supplying and the roads for the supplies, and a handful of P-40's. I'll never forget that's where we lost Bob Little, either a bomb didn't get off his rack and exploded or ground fire tore a wing off, but one of the wings tore off and he didn't have time to get out. Then after that, the old man had to pull the airplanes back, we were through there. Then we had to re-orient ourselves in accordance with the Japanese re-orientation to come in from Hankow and the Pacific and then take China again from the east. So we deployed some of us up to Chunking then to Kweilin. At Kweilin I was shot down again, but it wasn't near as bad as the first time. I belly-landed and got out with a score on my head. Then after that it was a matter of meeting the Induction Board at operations, saying, "No, I'm not going to stay". I'll never forget that last deal with the old man came to Kweilin and this was just before July 4th which was supposed to be the last day of the AVG, then [???] goes home, except for the ones that agreed to stay. The old man asked through Bob Neale – Bob Neale came in to us and I sensed something was going on and he says, "The old man has asked for volunteers to stay over another, I think it was two weeks" – to give the 23rd Fighter Group at the time I think it was, which included guys from the regular army air corps from India, to replace us with new P-40E's and all coming in, but they were slow in getting over there and the Japanese were well aware of all this and that's when they moved navy pilots into Han Kal area to completely wipe us out, and the old man knew the pressure on him and a lot of us, including me was just heart-broken. But I couldn't say now and a lot of the others couldn't say no. I think it was 20 of us volunteered to stay over another two weeks, and a lot of airmen. And that was nip and tuck too, I didn't have 5 �any close shaves after that. In late July, determined to go home, I got on a Gooneyird at Kweilin and started my trek back to the United States. FB: Did you have a difficult time getting back? Some of the guys had some problems getting back. CB: The standpoint of getting back, I didn't even worry about it. I'd heard stories about guys previously – as a matter of fact, one of the colonels in the – old Tex Sanders, I knew him back in the States, he was on the induction board back in Kweilin. "Charlie", he said, "I knew you were going to stay over here aren't you?" He said, "You know, going back home on a boat, a submarine would probably sink it." I remember making a comment, I said, "Look Tex, what I've been through, that's the least thing that worries me." I had heard, a lot of them were gonna ask to go back on a boat. A lot of them had been talking to the, I think it was Pan Am that had been flying airplanes were beginning to supply China and some of buddies were flying those airplanes – I knew some of them and they had already made contact with them in order to get back in, maybe an airline, and maybe Pan Am would sign on with them or maybe CNAC. They'd be getting air transportation home. But I didn't even really think about that until I got up into Kweilin – no it was Chunking, where Skip Adair was and we were gonna say the old man good-bye there and Skip Adair asked Bob Neale and I – I told Bob Neale, I said, "Why don't we go together?" We'd been together as Commander and Vice Commander, and inseparable. When we got go Chunking, talking to Skip Adair, he asked us off the side, whether we'd be willing to help Red Petach get back. Her husband had been killed and she was pregnant. Of course we said yes. With that, we took off and told the old man good-bye, and you can imagine how that was. Never forget it. We finally got to Calcutta and there you know, we said, "Well, what do we do?" So we all holed up the British hotel and fortunately, I had some old friends, colonel types, including Colonel Naiden who was a full Colonel at Langley Field when I was a brand new Second Lieutenant. He was Commander of the 10th Air Force at New Delhi, and Colonel Charlie Caldwell who I was 6 �very close to at Langley Field, they were full colonels and generals and I was brazen enough to talk to Bob, and I said, "Let's go up to New Delhi, see what we can do there. We got on a little train, we all went up to New Delhi and I went straight to headquarters, ran into Charlie Caldwell and of course, we just latched on to each other, and told him, and I'll remember for the rest of my life, he got in, got me an audience with General Naiden and General Naiden remembered me at Langley Field and I pleaded my case and I told him, I said, "By the way, we've got Mrs. Petach with us and her husband was killed, they got married several months ago and she's pregnant, and we're taking her back." He said, "I'll see what I can do." So ended up, he didn't even send a wire to General Arnold, he called personally on the telephone. We got a wire back from General Arnold, it says, "Bond, Neale and Petach full privileges all the way home." So, that's the way we got home. FB: Could you tell us about … 7 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Bond_Charles_1991-02-23_v11 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bond, Charles R., Jr. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-02-23 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Bond interview (video and transcript, 11 of 12), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charlie Bond by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles R. "Charlie" Bond was Vice Squadron Leader of the First Pursuit Squadron "Adam and Eves" of the American Volunteer Group (AVG). Recruited by Skip Adair in 1941, he was inspired by photos of shark-mouthed Tomahawks of No. 112 Sqadron, RAF. He was the first to paint his P-40 in similar markings, setting the precedent for what became the trademark of the Flying Tigers. He shot down six Japanese fighters and one bomber. After the AVG disbanded, he rejoined the US Army Air Forces School of Applied Tactics to train new fighter pilots. In this tape, Bond describes his survival after the combat in Paoshan, the meeting between the Flying Tigers and General Bissell, and the last days of the AVG. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng