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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a67bf7b5d4ae83e9bd62cb4c314e3282.pdf
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Garland, Dudley Hoare (Interview transcript), 1945
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Garland, Dudley Hoare
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Garland, George (transcriber)
Description
An account of the resource
Dudley Hoare Garland served as an artillery officer in the Ninth Infantry Division during World War II. Assigned to Battery A, 26th Field Artillery Regiment, which normally supported the 39th Infantry Regiment, Garland eventually became its commanding officer, and then moved to the staff of the divisional artillery when promoted to the rank of Major. Garland landed with his unit in North Africa and served in North Africa, Sicily, France, Belgium and Germany. He was assigned to return to the US in March, 1945, and while there, he visited the office of his brother George in New York City, and recorded some of his experiences on his brother’s office Dictaphone. The original recording was not preserved, but George’s daughter, Kent Garland McKay, had the transcript, which she has shared with us for posting to this archive. This file also includes information given to Garland by his former commanding officer, Lt. Col. Lewis Lockett, when Garland visited him in a hospital in 1943. The transcript covers a variety of topics, including having his ship sunk off the coast of Algeria, fighting in Tunisia, Sicily, Normandy, Belgium and Germany, relationships with other officers and civilians, meetings with high ranking generals and political figures, and different aspects of daily life in the countries where he was stationed.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-03-12
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
GarlandD
Format
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application/pdf
Type
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Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/24a31e03c4899ec0a15e6a813693dca9.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
JANE JACOBS BADINI
Women in Baseball
Born: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio June 16, 1924
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit,
MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 26, 2011
Interviewer: “Let‟s start with your full name and where and when were you born?”
My name is Jane Janette Jacobs. I was born in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio at 1836 4th Street.
Interviewer: “When were you born?”
I was born June 16, 1924
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
Well, I thought it was pretty good, I don’t know if you’d like to—my childhood—my
mother found out when I was four years old that I was blind in my left eye, but I had—
blind from birth and she was over protective, really over protective of me and everything.
27:53 We had—in the back yard there was a lot of property there and that’s where we
played baseball and playing there, but I was the only girl. All the rest of them were guys.
Interviewer: “Now, this is a neighborhood? A city neighborhood?”
Yes, oh yeah
Interviewer: “All right, so neighborhood kids kind of got together in a vacant lot to
play ball?”
Yeah, we just played and enjoyed ourselves.
Interviewer: “So, you had a baseball, a bat, you had gloves?”
Yes
Interviewer: “How did you get your equipment? Did your parent buy it?”
1
�I had two older brothers.
Interviewer: “Ah”
They were baseball players and my older brother—at one time both my brothers were
pitchers, and then my one brother, well they both were very, very good, but my one
brother was an exceptionally good batter, so they asked him not to pitch anymore because
they were going to use him for a batter all the time, but my brother Chuck, he pitched and
he was terrific, terrific. 29:16 That’s how that was broke up, and then they got so nice
with me because they wanted to teach me and since I was a tomboy you know. That’s
what they referred to you then when you were out with just a bunch of guys, and there I
was, the only girl.
Interviewer: “How was school for you?”
School? It was good; I got good grades and everything in school.
Interviewer: “So the baseball part was just like any other kid? It was just after
school you played baseball?”
Yes
Interviewer: “What position did you play back then?” 29:57
Oh, I was always a pitcher.
Interviewer: “Always a pitcher?‟
Yeah, my brothers would show me.
Interviewer: “Were you playing softball or baseball?”
Well, at that time we were playing softball.
Interviewer: “So, it was underhand?”
Oh yes
2
�Interviewer: “Did you continue playing into high school?”
Yes, I played in high school and I remember our gym teacher said, “Jane, let them hit the
ball”, and I said, “no, I don’t think so”, and the gym teacher said, “ you know you are
supposed to win if you can”, and I said, “if I let them hit the ball it’s not going to be
good”, so the teacher said, “let them hit it anyway”, and I said, “no, no, I can’t do that”.
30:45
Interviewer: “How—your high school had a baseball team?”
It was gym really because we didn’t have much of that then.
Interviewer: “Ok, how come you were playing? You‟re a girl, how could you be
playing baseball in high school?”
Well, that’s the way it was. I think it was once a week, to tell you the truth. It wasn’t
like playing every day.
Interviewer: “It wasn‟t a formal team?”
No, it wasn’t a regular baseball team, no.
Interviewer: “So you had it almost like before were you had the neighborhood kids
play baseball, in high school you just played baseball?”
Yeah, right
Interviewer: “Ok, all right, when did you first hear about the opportunity for an all
American Girls Professional Baseball League? How did you hear about that?”
Well, I heard when I played amateur ball when I was sixteen and got terrific—I was
really good, I think I had twenty-four wins and either twenty-four or twenty-six, and four
losses. 31:54 We had twins that played on the team then and their dad was the manager,
I think that’s what you called them in those days, and that’s how I got to play.
3
�Interviewer: “So you—this is still during high school that you‟re playing in this
amateur league, ok. Did your parent like the idea of you playing baseball like
that?”
Well, my mom didn’t know anything about baseball, and oh my gosh, my dad was a
pitcher and like I say, my brother was a pitcher and he changed to be a batter.
Interviewer: “But they encouraged you?”
Oh yeah, my mom didn’t care that much, but my dad sure did.
Interviewer: “Well good, so you‟re playing with this amateur league and somebody
sees you, is that how it worked out?” 32:53
Yeah, they started to send scouts you know.
Interviewer: “What year was this?”
Well, they sent scouts when I was—that was a couple of years later. It was just before—
when they started the league it was 1943.
Interviewer: “1943, so when did you actually—“
We had teams and we traveled to different little cities.
Interviewer: “Ok, the scout came around and saw you play—“
Yeah, then I went to Chicago.
Interviewer: “So you were invited to go to tryouts?”
Yes, right
Interviewer: “How did you get there?”
By train
Interviewer: “Train, ok, were you by yourself?”
Yes, at that particular time I was.
4
�Interviewer: “Had you ever traveled very far before?” 33:57
No, no it was completely different back then you know.
Interviewer: “What was the experience of taking the train trip out to Chicago for
the tryouts like?”
Well, I was kind of scared to tell you the truth, because I hadn’t been out like that. It was
interesting, when we got there they had someone meet us and we tried out at Wrigley
Field in Chicago. We were a little nervous because we didn’t know whether we were
going to make it or not, but I made it immediately.
Interviewer: „What was that experience like of walking onto the field. Were there
girls out there in uniforms already playing?”
No, we didn’t have uniforms yet because we had to make the teams and I don’t know
what they called the teams because they hadn’t organized the teams yet.
Interviewer: “So what were the tryouts like? Did they have you field balls? Were
they hitting balls to you? Were you catching? What were the tryouts?”
I was just pitching because I wasn’t very good as a fielder you know. 35:00
Interviewer: “So you were pitching and other girls would go up to the mound and
they would pitch and scouts were watching?”
We were playing in different positions in different places you know.
Interviewer: “Did you find out that day that you got in?”
I don’t think we found out that day. It seems to me that it was, I hope I’m not wrong, but
I think it was about a week before we heard because there were others that had to tryout
with yet and that took a little time.
Interviewer: “So, were you still in Chicago or did you come back home?”
5
�I came back home.
Interviewer: “So, they contacted you at home?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Tell me about getting that, it must have been a letter in the mail,
huh?” 35:52
It could have been a telephone call or something. So, we had the tryout and everything
and there were only four teams when it first started in 1943, and like I said, in the
beginning I went there and made the team real good and I got real sick.
Interviewer: “Got sick?”
Well, I got the Mumps and then I was a little afraid because I had to stay behind. I
wasn’t use to that straying home and not going out anywhere. That was my first trip that
I took in my life, so I went home and instead of going back, which I could have, I just oh
no, I didn’t feel like it. Then I got the opportunity and got a contract and everything to
come the following year. 37:00
Interviewer: “Nobody had any problem with the fact that you were blind in one
eye?”
They didn’t know it and this is a good story. I thought well, I’m not going to tell them
I’m blind in one eye, and nobody knew it, even my friends, and I had a lot of friends and
everything. One day Bob Knolls, he came to interview me after the picture was shown
because I was taken on sick leave in a Limousine and all that so, anyway what was the
question again?
Interviewer: “That they didn‟t know that you were blind in one eye, yeah. You
mean the whole time you were playing baseball people didn‟t know?”
6
�No, even my friends because I never told them see. 37:58 When Bob was interviewing
me and everything, I said, “Bob, I’ll tell you one thing, but I don’t want you to be writing
this up”, I said, “I was blind in one eye. I was born blind.”, and he said, “What?”, and I
said, “Yeah”, and he said, “you could do a lot of good for kids that have a handicap.
Would you please allow me to use this as a fact?” He said, “you will be surprised how
much it helps kids”, which I was in the future, because they held them back you see.
Through that kids started to do whatever they could.
Interviewer: “So you tried out and what team did you get on?”
I got on the Racine Belles and I played for two years with the Belles.
Interviewer: “That meant that you had to move to Racine, so your parents were ok
with your going?”
Yeah, we stayed in people’s homes out there rather than staying in a hotel.
Interviewer: “Hotels, right, did you have to go through that charm school?”
Oh yes, I went through the charm school, and in fact there’s a write-up in the paper. You
have one of the papers, don’t you?
Interviewer: “Tell us about that.”
Well, we weren’t that way, we were a little—we just didn’t like that you know because
we had to use make-up and everything and we didn’t like it.
Interviewer: “What were some of the things they had you do? In the movie they
show a book on the head.”
I was going to say, we had to walk a certain way and you couldn’t be tomboyish or
anything like that because you had to be a young lady, so I thought it was terrible. 40:05
I said, “my God it was terrible” Am I allowed to say “My God?”
7
�Interviewer: “So the basic idea was that you had to act like a lady , so you had to sit
a certain way and you had to eat a certain way and they taught you how to use the
knife and the fork?”
Well, they didn’t do that, but don’t slop it.
Interviewer: “You say that you really didn‟t like it, the girls didn‟t really like it, but
it was part of what you had to do.”
You had to do it, you had no choice, and we just had to.
Interviewer: “So, did that just happen? Did they do the charm school just a day or
did they do it every day for a period of time?”
For a while, but I truthfully don’t remember.
Interviewer: “So, it wasn‟t just a one day thing, you had to go in there and they
taught you one thing and then they taught you another thing?
Yes
Interviewer: Ok, alright, how was your first season?” 41:06
Well, the first season I did pretty good you know.
Interviewer: “You were a rookie, right?”
Yeah, right
Interviewer: “Did you sit on the bench very much the first year?”
I was right in there pretty much you know. As you will see by the card my earned run
average was terrific, but if they didn’t get runs for you, you couldn’t win the game, right?
Interviewer: “Oh yeah, and you started out as a pitcher, you were first string
pitcher?”
8
�Well, we had I don’t know how many pitchers because you had a pretty good number of
games you had to play, so we took our turns. 42:00
Interviewer: “You had home games and you had road trip games. How were the
road trips?”
They were good and we traveled the road trips by bus and stayed in hotels, but we stayed
in the people’s homes there in Racine.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?”
Well, it was different you know, but we had to wear them, we had no choice, absolutely
no choice.
Interviewer: “Several of the girls said they had to adjust the dresses or skirts, or
whatnot, because it‟s difficult to play ball that way. Did you do anything like that
with your uniform?”
If you notice in the pictures—I think it shows in the picture where—you know they were
so full here they got in out way as we pitched, so it shows the uniform where we had to
pin it down, so when we came through with the ball we weren’t in touch with the
material. 43:07
Interviewer: “Yeah, so you started out playing underhand, right?”
Oh yeah,
Interviewer: “And it was a softball size?”
A twelve inch, yeah.
Interviewer: “You were already use to doing that though.”
Yeah
Interviewer: “Now after your first season, you came back home?”
9
�Oh yes, at the end of the season, yeah, I came back home again.
Interviewer: “And what did you do?”
Well eventually—after I retired, I retired after—I could have played—see, I played four
years. I had a contract to go to the fifth, but my statistics, and I don’t mean to be
bragging on you, but it was so good that the talk went through my mind that if I have a
bad season I’m going to ruin everything, and this way I’m going out—and you will see
the statistics, they were very good, and I didn’t want to do that, so I had the contract
signed and everything and I said I wasn’t going to play any more and this was the end of
my professional ball. 44:22
Interviewer: “We‟ll get back to that later on, but I want to get back to that first
season. You played out the season, and then you came back home. Did you move
back in with your parents or did you have to work?”
I was with my parents you know.
Interviewer: “Did you have to work?”
I worked for Woolworth’s down on Front Street in Cuyahoga Falls. I started working
and you know.
Interviewer: “Did they know you were a baseball player?”
Yeah, they did
Interviewer: “Were you kind of a local celebrity?” 45:00
Well, we didn’t do that much celebrity at that time you know.
Interviewer: “But it was unusual for a girl to be playing professional baseball.”
Yes it was.
10
�Interviewer: “So the second season comes along and you get another contract
playing for the same team?”
Yes
Interviewer: “So you move to Racine, and did you stay in the same house?”
Yes, we were friends you know. The people, Conrad was their name, and they were
just—they treated me so great. When we had a few days off or anything, and they would
go out of town, they took me right with them and we enjoyed it, and we became—they
had two daughters and even after I retired and everything—when I was playing ball the
daughter always came to watch and after I retired they kept writing to me and we wrote
back and forth—it was great. 46:01
Interviewer: “How was your second season? You‟re not a rookie anymore.”
No I wasn’t, but I was treated great, absolutely great and that’s what everyone else is
saying.
Interviewer: “Are there any highlights or games that you remember that were
exceptional? You said that you were a pretty good pitcher.”
I was a good pitcher. The thing, the big thing that was really something was that I was
allowed to bat. You know my left eye was blind and everything and I hit a home run.
Unbelievable, I couldn’t believe it myself you know. That drew a lot of attention.
Interviewer: “That‟s wonderful, that‟s wonderful. Sp then you‟re offered a third
season, but this time you‟re playing with a different team?”
Yes, because they were trying to equalize the teams and see what you could do, so I
played the whole year with them and then I got to go back to Racine, which really tickled
me because I loved playing with Racine. 47:11
11
�Interviewer: “What was the other team you played with?”
Peoria
Interviewer: “Peoria, ok. That was the third year you went to Peoria?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Ok, alright”
Peoria, and then back to Racine again, and then I quit.
Interviewer: “Was there a big difference in the playing from Racine to Peoria?”
No, it was pretty much the same thing.
Interviewer: “Were you still pitching underhand?”
Yes, oh yes
Interviewer: “So the side arm didn‟t come until later?”
Yeah, I don’t know how many years later.
Interviewer: “How were the fans?”
Wonderful, oh my goodness, they couldn’t do enough for us. They would invite us to
their homes, the whole team they would have coming to their home. They would invite
us and just be wonderful. 48:04
Interviewer: “Now the beginning of the league, at least some of the stories were that
the fans kind of thought it was a novelty, these girls playing baseball, did you
experience that too?”
A little, yeah
Interviewer: “But soon, playing ball, they realized these are good players?”
Right, yes they did.
12
�Interviewer: “So, in your third season, you‟re playing once again, were you
thinking about this as a career?”
No, never once
Interviewer: “You did it because it was fun and they were paying you.”
Yeah, I’ll tell yeah, we made a big, big salary. We got fifty dollars a week.
Interviewer: “Were you able to send some money home?”
Yeah, because when I grew up we didn’t have as much or anything else. We were kind
of hard up and I always thought of my parents and sent a little bit of money.
Interviewer: “At that stage in your life, what did you think you wanted to do?
You‟re playing baseball and you‟re getting paid, but what is it you wanted to do?”
49:13
I had an idea that I wanted to go into my own little business at that young age and that’s
exactly—I worked for Acme for a while and then I thought, “ well it’s about time that I
start”, so I went around to the houses and picked up junk and I went into the dry cleaning
business although I put it out to be done by other businesses that were doing it and I built
a pretty darn good business. First I had a car and when I got a little money, I got a truck
you know and I went around and gosh, the people were wonderful to me, they were. It
was unusual to have a girl dry cleaner. 50:10
Interviewer: “So, your fourth year comes along and you‟re still playing with
Racine, but you made a very important decision?”
Yes I did, at the end.
Interviewer: “Could you tell us—how did you come to that decision?”
13
�Well, just like I mentioned, I had very good statistics and man, they were great, for that
time they were, and I got home and thought, “What if I have a bad year?” So, that’s
when I quit. I worked around a little bit at stores like Acme you know, and then I
thought, “I’m going into my own business”, and started a route of dry cleaning and I
rented a little shop on Tallmadge Road in Cuyahoga Falls. Believe me or not, but I
bought the place after a couple of years and I still have the place and that’s the story.
51:23
Interviewer: “Did you miss it, baseball?”
Yeah, because we weren’t allowed to play on another team because we were considered
professionals, but my brother Chuck, he was a—he worked for plumbing and heating,
and they always had—every year they had a little shindig going on and they said,
“Chuck, we want your sister to come down here and pitch for us, you know, we’ve never
had any audience of any kind”, and he said, “I’m sure she will”, and so I did and
eventually I was the CEO officer at the heating and plumbing for twenty years and I
made a lot of friends down there because I just wasn’t allowed to play any more. 52:22 I
had customers from there and it worked out real good.
Interviewer: “What were some of the highlights? I mean, you get together with
these gals for these reunions and what stories do you tell? A no hitter or?”
The biggest thing for me that I tell, was hitting that one home run. That’s the greatest
thing and no one believes it hardly because I was a lousy batter.
Interviewer: “Most pitchers are.”
Yeah
14
�Interviewer: “I was a pitcher too, in little league, and my claim to fame is that I got
a homerun on a bunt.”
On a bunt?
Interviewer: “That‟s how bad the other team was, so I can appreciate your
homerun there. I only had one in my life too. 53:24 Did you talk about being a
professional baseball player after you left the league and were working in the dry
cleaning?”
No, because my intention was—we grew up poor, my family and my mom and dad had
very little, and I wanted to do something where I could help my mom, I had the greatest
mom in the world, absolutely, the super greatest mom in the world. We didn’t have
much, but we had respect for each other and loved each other you know and we kind of
went along that way. 54:03
Interviewer: “So, you were able to help support her?”
Oh yes, because I didn’t get married until I was forty-nine, so that was a long way to go.
Interviewer: “But you were a career woman I guess, from early on, and there
weren‟t many career women around then.” 54:16
No there weren’t
Interviewer: “did you already have that kind of drive before you played
professional baseball or did professional baseball kind of help you to make that
move into that?”
I never thought of that and I wanted my mom to have it good because she was such a
good soul. A terrific lady and my drive was to do something for my mom, and I did.
Interviewer: “What did those four years do for you, playing baseball?”
15
�Well, I think it gave you a lot of—what it is when you feel good about yourself?
Interviewer: “Confidence?”
Yes, that’s it
Interviewer: “Because you were a young girl.”
Oh yeah
Interviewer: “You played ball and you felt a little more confident.”
Oh my goodness, yeah, and the fans, it was unbelievable; they lined up just to get your
autograph. 55:20 That went on for the four years that I played.
Interviewer: “Did you have fans that kind of picked you out and you were their
favorite?”
Well, yes, I don’t want to brag, but I’m not going to lie either. Oh, yeah, oh my goodness
yes, they invited us out for dinner and everything, and it was really nice.
Interviewer: „so you didn‟t really talk about the league, you didn‟t talk about being
in baseball for many, many years?”
Oh no, and I wasn’t allowed to play amateurs and it died out.
Interviewer: “Right, but in terms of that part of your life, you were moving on and
you were going to go and do other things.”
Yes 56:08
Interviewer: “When did that change?”
Well, it changed not too many years afterwards because I was always thinking, in my
mind, what could I do to help my mom because she was such a good, good woman, so
she could have a little better life than what she had, and yet, I never wanted to sound like
I was bragging about anything because there was much, much love among us.
16
�Interviewer: “Did you know when the league ended? Did you see the newspapers
or did you know in 1954 that it was all over with?”
I don’t think I knew right away. I was out of there and I didn’t pay much attention to it.
57:02
Interviewer: “Did you keep in contact at all with any of the girls that you played
with?”
Eventually I did, but mostly with the family I stayed with. I was, oh my goodness,
because we played near San Francisco, I got to love San Francisco because I went out
there so much to see them and everything, and I would go out four times a year. It was
only for a few days or a week and they always wanted me to come to their house and they
would take me somewhere. We would go somewhere, you know, to enjoy ourselves. I
was just great and I don’t know if I’m explaining it right or not.
Interviewer: “Well, I think you‟ve seemed to developed a close and almost second
family.”
Yes, I did and I called them mom and pop and they wanted me to.
Interviewer: “Did they have any opinion about your quitting baseball?” 58:01
Well, a lot of people didn’t want me to quit. They said they would love to see me stay
and everything, but I just had a little bit different things I wanted to do in my life.
Interviewer: “So you never saw baseball as a career?”
Oh no, I never did and like I said, it did a lot of good after I told Bob Knolls that I was
blind and he, and different ones, said that I have helped the kids through what I had said.
There were some kids that could come and they wouldn’t be made fun of. See, I use to
be called “four eyes’ all the time in grade school and that made me mad, so what I would
17
�do, because I had to wear glasses—a lot of kids had to pass my home to school from
where I lived there was always a certain bunch you know. 59:10 It was “hello four
eyes”, and everything and when they got to my house I said, “I’ll be out in a minute”, and
I took off my glasses because I couldn’t afford to have them broke, and I would go out
and say, “now call me four eyes”, and we had a few fights and I won.
Interviewer: “Did you go to the first reunion, the All American Girls reunion?”
I probably did, but truthfully, I can’t remember.
Interviewer: “But you had some interest to want to see those girls again?”
Oh my gosh, yeah
Interviewer: “What changed? Was it just age? You were getting older and looking
back on that time? :03 If it was only four years of your life, and you certainly
accomplished a lot more afterwards, why would you be interested in getting back
together with these people?”
Because I had a good relationship with them and they treated me so good. They treated
me like a daughter instead of somebody just coming into the house.
Interviewer: “I mean with the teams. Going to the reunions with the teams.”
Well, I didn’t go to that many though.
Interviewer: “Did the movie change anything for you? You saw the movie?”
Well, I saw it and I thought it was pretty neat, that was my impression.
Interviewer: “How did you see it? Did you see it in a movie theater?”
I was picked up by what do you call it?
Interviewer: “A limousine?”
A limousine, yeah
18
�Interviewer: “Who arranged for that?”
Evidently before it came out we were invited to the premier. 1:28
Interviewer: “Tell that story, tell that story, yeah.”
That was great and we were in a theater of some sort, I think it was a theater.
Interviewer: “Had you ever been in a limousine before?"
No
Interviewer: “Tell the story.”
I thought, “that can’t be me going in a limousine like that”, and then they were so great to
me, it was just marvelous, and I thought, “My goodness, what’s happening?” Everything
was just great and I think you have a picture of it there. 2:08
Interviewer: “So you arrive in a limousine at the theater and?”
Everything—there was a lot of talking going on and they were just good to me and let me
know that I was appreciated.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie? Did you like it?”
Yeah, it was pretty good, but Tom Hanks, he stretched it a little bit you know and I
wasn’t a stretcher.
Interviewer: “A lot of the girls say the movie changed everything and people
suddenly knew who you guys were.”
Yes it did and I was going to get to that and it made a really great name for all of us.
3:05 We were highly respected and of course when the boys came back from the war,
and they had been in for quite a while then, but that’s what broke it up, the boys coming
back.
19
�Interviewer: “What do you think about all this excitement? You‟re being treated,
in many ways, like movie stars.”
Yes we were treated like movie stars.
Interviewer: “And you still are.”
Yes, it’s unbelievable to think that something like that could happen.
Interviewer: “why do you think there‟s all this excitement? You only played four
year, why do you think people get so excited about this?”
I don’t think the average person knew how well women could play, and they found out
there was a lot going on there, they can really play good. We would slide into bases, but
they didn’t want the pitcher to slide and get hurt, but that’s how I messed my knee up.
4:11 You have so much interest in the game that you don’t want to be out if you can
slide and be safe. Does that make sense to you?
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, one of the husbands of one of the players said he never
got an opportunity to see his wife play until much later and like you said, you
couldn‟t just go off and spend money going to see a baseball game, but he finally got
a chance to see her and he said he had known her, her whole life, but he never
realized she was such a good ball player.”
Yes
Interviewer: “So, I guess that‟s what the fans saw too, they saw a good baseball
game, and you guys were pretty good at what you did.”
We thought we were without being smart. I was never a bragger, but when they would
say, “boy, that was a great game”, I would say, “Thank you”, it was pretty good wasn’t
it?” 5:16
20
�Interviewer: “You went on to accomplish some major goals that you want to take
care of your mother, you wanted to gain security, but if you look back on your
whole life, where do those four years fit in? How important were they to you?”
I think they were very important to me because they gave me a start. Fifty bucks a week,
and the one manager we had, he said, and I never told this to people because I thought it
sounded like bragging, he said I should be making more than the fifty dollars that
everybody was making. He raised my pay every week, but I forget if it was seventy or
seventy-five dollars, so I don’t want to say it was seventy-five if it was seventy, but it
was one of the two definitely. 6:16 Oh my gosh, can you imagine getting that, that early
in life? To make that much? I called home and oh my, everybody was happy.
Interviewer: “one of the other questions that I have—the phenomenon that the
movie created, put you in a whole different position than you were before. You
were a ball player and now you‟re part of American history. I know you didn‟t
think about it at the time, but how do you reflect on it now? People are saying to
you that this is an important part of American history.”
Yes, well, my first impression was, “I can’t believe it, are they saying that you’re part of
history because of baseball?” At first I thought it had to be a dream and it’s super. 7:22
Interviewer: “It‟s kind of hard to think it‟s a dream when you come to these
reunions.”
My gosh, we are treated so great, it’s wonderful, but that’s what you think unless you’re a
big bragger.
Interviewer: “There‟s a big difference between bragging and just telling the truth
and that‟s what it really comes down to and that‟s why I‟m here. I‟m not asking
21
�you to brag, I just want you to tell what you did and if that sounds like bragging to
you, it‟s not bragging to me, I‟ll tell you that because you did it and there‟s proof.
We know what all of you accomplished.”
Yes
Interviewer: “One of the main reasons I decided to do this project was because I
saw some film footage of the Grand Rapids reunion in which a number of you were
signing autographs and there‟s a line of little girls with their mothers holding on to
them. What do you say to the little girls? What is the message you have for these
younger girls that you see at these reunions?” 8:22
My thought is to always do the best you can for everything and when you do the best you
can you will succeed. You might not be the best, but you won’t be the worst. I think that
explains it.
Interviewer: “There is something I want to talk about and it‟s major. It‟s
something that happened to you and I don‟t even know you and yet I believe this.
When that reporter came out and you revealed for the first time about your eye,
why did you decide, at that point, you wanted to tell people?” 9:13
Because I wanted to let him know that I didn’t let that interfere and that I didn’t just lay
down and forget about life and want people to be sorry for you. I never, never, never
wanted people to feel sorry for me because that would have killed me. So, I went on all
those years and when Bob Knoll put it in the Beacon Journal he said, “I’m telling you
right now Jane, you’re doing the biggest favor for kids to be able to make an adjustment”,
and it did, it did. I got an awful lot of publicity on that and the parents thought it was
22
�super great. It pleased me very much because I felt like I was a part of helping kids.
10:14
Interviewer: “How do your teammates, obviously you‟re not playing anymore, none
of them knew, right?”
No, none of my best friends and everything and when this all came out in the Beacon
Journal they said, “Jane, all the years we’ve known you and you never said anything”,
and I said, “well, what’s to say, I didn’t want anybody feeling sorry for me”, and I said,
“Can you imagine, all I had to do was make an error”, and you’re dead. That was about
it, I just didn’t want anybody to feel sorry for me and say, “oh well”, and to be extra nice
to me because I was that way. I guess that’s it. 11:04
Interviewer: ”How difficult was it playing with one eye?”
I never even considered it because I just went on and hoped to do the best I can. I’m not
a religious nut or anything, but I thank God so many times that I was allowed to just get
started and my big, big thrill was that kids who never had a chance at least get a chance,
and that did something to my whole body and I felt great.
Interviewer: “Now, if this is getting too personal you don‟t have to say anything,
but you said you took until you were forty-eight until you got married.”
Forty-nine
Interviewer: “Forty-nine, why this guy?”
I had my dry cleaning business going and I was golfing and this guy ended up, he use to
watch me golf, so he asked the guy that owns Tommy’s Café there in the falls who that
lady over there was and he said, “I know her, that’s Jane Badini”, and he said, “she has a
dry cleaning shop”, and he said that he would like to talk to me and take me out, so he
23
�came over to my shop and started bringing in his dry cleaning and laundry and
everything. 12:50 He started talking with me and I had talked with him a few times and
a friend of mine said, “Jane, he’s a nice guy and when you feel like it, he wants you to go
out with him”. I said, “thanks a lot”, so when he came in, and I don’t know how many
times he asked me out, so after I knew that he was a nice guy, he came in and said, “Will
you please go out on a date with me?” I said, “sure I will”, and we went out and we just
started going together and everything clicked and we got married.
Interviewer: “Wonderful, that‟s wonderful. I have one story that might top that
one. A very good friend of mine, who is a volunteer who works on this Library of
congress project and he‟s eighty years old now I think. He did the same thing, his
wife worked in a bakery and he came in and asked her out and she said, “no, no,
I‟m too busy”, so one day he came in with a used calendar and he said, “find one
day on here”, and they got married. 14:07
That’s great, that’s nice.
Interviewer: “They‟re still together and I love that story.”
Have you ever heard of Tommy’s Café years ago in Cuyahoga Falls?
Interviewer: “No”
He worked for Tommy and he was next to the younger Tommy and the next man in the
link.
Interviewer: “Did you tell him about your baseball career?”
No, oh no, I never did, I mean it took a long time because I never wanted anybody to
think I was bragging and I just was sincere about that. I didn’t want anybody to like me
because I was a ball player and if you’re going to like me, like me for who I am.
24
�Interviewer: “Well, I think you‟re real easy to like.”
Oh, thank you so much, I appreciate that.
Interviewer: “This was a wonderful, wonderful time with you and thank you.”
15:06
Thank you very much.
25
�26
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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RHC-58_JBadini
Title
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Badini, Jane Jacobs (Interview transcript and video, 2010)
Creator
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Badini, Jane Jacobs
Description
An account of the resource
Jane Jacobs Badini was born in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, in 1924. She grew up playing softball, first with her brothers, and later with organized teams. She was a talented pitcher, and one of the players recruited by the AAGPBL when it was formed in 1943. She played in the league for four years, primarily with Racine, before leaving and starting her own business.
The audio on this recording has significant noise interference.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Illinois
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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mp4
pdf
Coverage
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World War II
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-05
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/af604db20cfe3806af1b93256d640371.mp4
f7e20e34b9399fb8ccbe322543ce50e5
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/de441a6fc56fbdccf26c3c236fa707b6.pdf
b23205130676ab6baafa8b4a935946e4
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II - WAC
Mae Johnson
Interviewed by James Smither
Length of Interview: 29:14
(00:02)
JS: We’re talking with Mae Johnson of Greenville, Michigan and the interviewer is James
Smither, of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Mrs. Johnson, can you
start with some background on yourself. Where and when were you born?
MJ: I was born in Waterbury, Connecticut, July 14th, 1919. I grew up there, went to school.
Graduated from Leavenworth. Not the prison, the college…the high school. And then, at that
time, some of the guys from school were being sent into the Army or the Navy and the girls
wanted to keep them happy, so we would join a club and write to them as often as we could.
And send them goodies and stuff.
(00:56)
JS: Now do you remember that year you graduated from high school?
MJ: ’37.
JS: So after you graduated, did you go to work, or stay at home, or what did you do?
MJ: I stayed home and earned some money, because I wanted to learn to be a nurse. So when I
got enough money, I went to nursing school. And I was almost through the complete course, a
three year course, and I got sick and I was out so long that I couldn’t possibly make up the time,
so that was the end of that.
JS: Now, where did you attend nursing school?
MJ: It was in Greenwich, Connecticut.
JS: Okay. And then, once you got sick and you couldn’t catch up, what did you do after that?
MJ: Let’s see. I did a lot of baby-sitting jobs. And then I went to work, at that time it was
called the Waterbury Clock Company. We held hands and made faces. (laughs) And we made
parts for gyroscopes. So we knew what we were getting into at that time. I worked there for
quite a while.
(02:20)
MJ: And then one of my best girlfriends had a sister who lived in California. She was a nurse.
And we had enough money saved up so the two of us took the train and went out to California
�and stayed out there until we ran out of money. We had to go to work out there, so we got a job
at the Bethlehem Steel Company.
JS: Now, where were you when Pearl Harbor happened?
MJ: I think I was at home, in ’41. I must have been at home, cause I was with my dad. I
remember that.
JS: Home in Connecticut, at that point. All right. And when did you go out to California, then?
(03:00)
MJ: I can’t remember. There’s that time element…I can’t keep it straighten out.
JS: But the war’s going on at the time that you go out there.
MJ: Right.
JS: So you go and you work for the steel company. And what were you doing for them?
MJ: Oh, I don’t remember. It was something for the military, but I can’t exactly remember. I
know…should I say that, Ed? Is it a bad word? (speaks to someone on her right) No, it isn’t
really a bad word…really. I had a job working with a bastard file. And I had never heard of that
before. And I was real close with my dad, and I knew all of his tools, but I never recalled that he
had one of those things. Oh…that was fun. And we both stayed there until we could make
enough money to get back to Waterbury again. (laughs). But, I remember what fun it was on the
train. I mean, it was a real train, not like Amtrak. But it was fun, mostly it was a mixture of
military people, going back and forth.
(04:07)
MJ: I remember one time, too, that we almost missed the train because we went out to get some
goodies, and we pretty near didn’t make it… but… While we were out in California, that was
great. Because there was so much to see back then, that was free. And I think I should tell you
the story about my girl-friend…she was really naughty. We went to Chinatown one night…
JS: So, San Francisco?
MJ: Yeah. With the little bit of money that we had, and we went to the restroom. And when we
came out, everybody in the place was laughing their heads off. And come to find out, I had a
piece of toilet tissue that was trailing on my shoe. And I never did forgive her for that, for not
telling me that. But we had a really good, a really good time. We had a chance, one time while
we were out there, to go to Alcatraz, cause her sister knew somebody that was working on the
boat or something. But we just missed it by a day.
(05:17)
MJ: But, you know, you see things on tv and it brings back memories, which are great. So…
�JS: Okay. So, you had your adventure in California. You come back home to Connecticut.
And then what do you do at that point?
MJ: And then at that point, after having seen all the military, and having worked in the
Bethlehem Steel, I guess I became over-patriotic. I said, oh gee, I guess I’ll join the service. So
I did.
(05:45)
JS: Now how did that wind up working? Was there a recruiting office nearby that you go to?
Or what happened?
MJ: I didn’t hear you…
JS: What’s the process? How do you end up enlisting in the WACs?
MJ: Well, I had to go and enlist. And I think that was in New Haven, Connecticut, if I
remember correctly. And, of course, I was accepted. And they give you all of your gear, all that
stuff. And I was sent to Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia. For the basic training. I was not there all that
long. Just enough to learn all the… I do remember that while I was there, I didn’t like the soil
that they had there. It was that red clay. And it was a heck of a job, trying to keep your shoes
clean. And of course, you had that spot inspection. Get points off if you had a grain of that little
red clay on your shoe.
(06:40)
JS: So what did they have you do, in basic training?
MJ: Oh, my. We had a lot of PE. And marching. Marching, marching. Lots of school work.
You know, the same learning as the guys do, basic things. I remember that one of my fears was
that while we were marching, I would become out of step. And we had to put on a rear view
parade performance for a big general, one time. And I thought, of my goodness, is it going to be
me that’s going to make a misstep? I can’t remember for sure, but I think it was General
Marshall.
JS: That’s quite possible.
MJ: And, of course, I didn’t know him from Adam, at the time. Yeah, I was there at Fort
Oglethorpe for just a short time. And then they sent me to Hot Springs, Arkansas. To a huge
Army/Navy General Hospital, that had been previously been a luxurious hotel.
JS: Right. Cause you had the health spa there with the hot springs.
(07:53)
MJ: Right. And those were…I have to tell the truth, I never, cause I never did get into one of
the spas. But we called it “Million Dollar Row” back then, and we would walk by. The hospital
was at the top of the hill. You could overlook the city. Um, I remember one time that they were
giving us some kind of a drill, and they were using a hose to put out a fire, a pretend fire. Of
�course, they turn the water on. I can remember one girl, she was trying to hold the hose down. It
jumped up in the air and she almost went flying. (laughs) It was comical, but…
JS: Was this like one of those big, kind of canvas fire hose? Very big, a lot of pressure, just
bounce around…
MJ: Everybody was just laughing their heads off, it was just really fun.
(08:48)
JS: Now what was your job at Hot Springs?
MJ: Actually, it was doing everything except the charting. For the…the nurses did all the
charting. And the nurses dispensed all the medication. But the technicians actually gave them
out to the patients. So, you know, it was just routine. Temperature, pulse and respiration.
JS: Did you have a particular ward or part of the hospital that you were assigned to?
MJ: It was called the surgical…actually, on my record, it says “Surgical and Medical
Technician,” so there was a combination of both of them there. But, um, we did just about
everything. You’d never catch a nurse emptying a bedpan, I’ll tell you that. You know how that
goes, don’t you?
(09:46)
JS: Now were the nurses officers at this point?
MJ: Yeah. All officers.
JS: So you’re the enlisted people. You do the dirty work.
MJ: Yeah. We did the dirty work. Which is par for the course, isn’t it?
JS: Okay. And, I don’t know…what was daily life like there?
MJ: Well, it was quite an adjustment getting used to living with so many girls. And sharing
small quarters, really. Coming back to Fort Oglethorpe, though, I can remember how naïve I
was. When they asked for volunteers to do something, and I volunteered for kitchen patrol. And
part of it was cleaning out a grease pit. The other part was peeling potatoes. And that was
before the, you know, automatic peelers.
JS: Right.
(10:38)
MJ: Yeah. Oh, golly. It was fun at the Army/Navy General, but you know, when I first got
there and looked at all those guys, and thought, I don’t know if I can really stand it, cause it was
just overwhelming. You know, when you see the devastation to their bodies. But, truthfully, it
�was the vets themselves that bolstered us. Which is surprising. So we both learned along the
way.
(11:16)
MJ: So then after Hot Springs, then they sent me to Fort Sheridan, to the base hospital there.
And that wasn’t exciting, quite so exciting until you know when… (smiles). I walked in one day
and they had just brought back a bunch of guys that came back from overseas. And I saw this
one person in particular, and I said to my girlfriend…I have to chuckle every time I think of
this…well, I said, I’m going to take that guy home with me. I said, you can have the rest of
them. I’ll take him home.
(11:54)
JS: Now in his account of things, he had kind of a foul temper at that point.
MJ: He did. But he was a charmer. He didn’t really have to say anything, to be honest. I really
and truly meant that, that I wanted it to, you know, get to be a lasting friendship. So…what else
can I tell you about that…
JS: Well,
MJ: He finally warmed up, how about that?
JS: He must have. Now, what did your duties consist of? Were you doing the same kind of
work at Fort Sheridan as you had in the other place?
(12:27)
MJ: Yeah. Of course, it was a smaller…a much smaller base.
JS: Now did you get there before the war in Europe ended?
MJ: Right, um hmm.
JS: Okay. So you got there early ’45, maybe?
MJ: The war ended in ’45.
JS: Right. And before they started to bring these guys back from Europe, this was just people
on the base who got sick, that you dealt with? Cause it was the base hospital, or did they already
have patients?
MJ: No, we always took care of the ones that they brought back.
(13:03)
JS: Now, what kind of accommodations did you have at Fort Sheridan?
MJ: We had barracks. Bunk beds.
�JS: How many women would they put together in a room, in these places?
MJ: You know, I’ve been trying to think of that. You mean, like for sleeping quarters?
JS: Yeah.
MJ: I really don’t remember. But I’d say maybe thirty or forty.
JS: Now, when you decided to join the WACs, what did your parents think of that?
(13:34)
MJ: Well, maybe they were happy to get me out of the house, to tell you the truth. (laughs)
Because I was about twenty, twenty four.
JS: Twenty-five, yeah.
MJ: So I think they were…they were happy. My dad had been in the Navy, so…I should tell
you that actually I wanted to join the Marines, because I thought the Marines had a more exciting
life. And their uniforms were nicer looking, and you know, once a Marine, always a Marine.
(laughs) And I couldn’t make it. And I ate carrots, until carrots came out of my…
JS: But you couldn’t pass their physical?
MJ: I couldn’t pass just the eyes. Just the eyes.
JS: The eye test.
MJ: So, I settled for the Army. But, Fort Sheridan was an interesting place, because Lake
Michigan was right there. We had a few little walks on the beach, there. And we were close
enough to Chicago so that we could go there for all the cultural activities. And I really learned a
lot. I mean, I came from a small town, what I thought back then, was 100,000 people.
Waterbury. But then when you get close to Chicago and see the mass of people…
(14:59)
JS: So you didn’t, like from Waterbury, you didn’t get on a train and go into New York City,
particularly?
MJ: Oh, New York City was our…we spent a lot of money in New York City.
JS: Okay. So you had that kind of experience before.
MJ: One of the…one thing about going to New York City was… of course, we had to keep
scrounging for our money so we had enough to get there. But anyhow, there were five girls in
that one particular group that I hung around with, and we went one day, and we were going to do
so much, and one of the girls said, let’s go to the opera. So, I had no idea what the opera was
�like at that point. So I said, okay, let’s go. So just before we went to the opera, there were some
vendors on the street, selling orchids. No…yeah, orchids. Twenty-five cents. So well, we
thought, we can spend twenty-five cents to have a corsage. So we did that and we thought we
were really bigwigs, you know. That was fun.
(16:16)
MJ: And, at Fort Sheridan, all kinds of things to go to. I really liked it there. One of the nice
things about Chicago was, or an unusual thing, was riding on the North Shore Line. They had a
pot-bellied stove, I can remember, on that train. So when I went to visit Ed, when he was at the
Veterans Hospital, that was in Waukesha, Wisconsin, so I’d get on the train at Fort Sheridan and
ride to Milwaukee. And pick up and go to the Veterans Hospital.
JS: So they had sent him from Fort Sheridan up to Waukesha, for the recuperation period?
MJ: Yeah.
JS: Okay, yeah.
MJ: Yeah. There were so many things to go to. But everything was free back then.
(17:06)
JS: Now what did you like to do in Chicago?
MJ: I liked to go to the museums. Because in Waterbury we didn’t have any. We had smaller
ones, but nothing like there.
JS: Yeah, cause Chicago at that point already had the Field museum, they had the aquarium.
The Art Institute was down there, and so forth, yeah.
MJ: I remember one time they gave us tickets to the football game at Northwestern.
JS: Okay.
MJ: That was fun. I don’t think I watched the game. I watched all the people around me. But,
oh my golly, I can’t think. The food in Chicago was so good. Chinese. You acquainted with the
Palmer House in Chicago? That was one of our…when we thought we were such big shots back
then, too. Going to the Palmer House. (shakes head) That was fun. Um, I can’t remember what
else. All the things that people pay to go see, nowadays. The Aquariums…oh, golly. I can still
picture walking the street.
(18:27)
MJ: There was one place there, I can’t remember the name of the hotel, it was right on the main
drag, I don’t even remember the name of that main drag anymore.
JS: Michigan Avenue?
�MJ: Michigan Avenue. And there was one big hotel there, and any service person that came in
there had free room and board. So that really paid off. There were several of us stayed there
several nights, you know, over the course of our time there. So…
(19:05)
JS: So now eventually, you meet this fellow, and you decide to get married. Um, you tell your
parents at the last minute…
MJ: Did we have to go back a little bit? How did that go? Oh, I know now what I’m thinking.
He proposed and at the time, he smoked all these cigarettes. So, I said, no way. I’m not
marrying any man that’s going to smoke a cigarette and put…
JS: That’s the other part of the quitting smoking story, then? (laughter) Cause in his version, he
just had a bet with a priest. (laughter) So he didn’t switch right away.
MJ: I don’t know which came first.
JS: Well, the priest was on the ship coming back from Europe.
MJ: Oh, oh oh!
JS: All right. Now this is why you talk to two people.
(19:56)
MJ: I had not heard that story, truthfully. But, I guess he picked me over the cigarettes. It paid
off, didn’t it?
JS: Yep. Yep. Still here.
MJ: Oh, dear. So, we decided then, we’d get married at the [unclear] Chapel. And we had to let
our parents know. And my folks came from Waterbury and his folks came from Greenville.
And everybody met the night before the wedding. Which was, you know, when I look back on it
now, it’s really comical. Wondering if, gee, I wonder if she’ll like me. But, at 23 or 24 years
old, who cares. I mean, you’re your own guys then. So we had a military wedding right there at
the chapel. Not a big one, but everybody came.
(20:56)
MJ: One funny part of that was my dad and I, like I said, we were always so close, and we were
standing back in the entrance way of the church, and the music kept playing “Here Comes the
Bride.” And my dad and I kept talking and talking. I don’t know how many times they played
it. And Ed tells me, he thought he was being jilted, at the time. (laughter) But finally, I
realized, gosh, I guess we better get a-going, so we walked down. And I can remember
afterwards, Ed telling me he asked the minister, “what am I supposed to do?” (laughter) And
the minister said, just stand there. Just say “I do” when you have to.
JS: Okay. Now were you still in the WACs at that point?
�(21:46)
MJ: Yeah.
JS: And then, did they make you leave once you got married?
MJ: No. No, I stayed until, let’s see, what was it? We were married in October. I don’t know.
It must have been November or December. I think we were home for Christmas, weren’t we?
Here? For Christmas?
JS: So basically, you were able to stay in until it was time for you and him to go?
MJ: Right.
(22:25)
JS: Now were there other pieces of your family story that he left out that you want to get in?
Cause how many kids did you have?
MJ: When we came back, after we were married and came back here, our first son was born in
1949. And we lived here at the time. And then Ed started college, and while at college, our son
Bruce was born, 1951. But over the years, we kept track of all their sports, you know, like all
good parents do, and go to PTAs and all that sort of thing. And, I’m losing track of all my
thoughts. They’re getting all confused.
(23:14)
JS: But there was a story about Bruce you wanted to…
MJ: Yeah. Bruce, his son graduated from high school last year. And one of the big joys of his
life was going to Alaska with his son, to fish. But previous to that, Bruce and Justin went three
or four times to Canada, to get together, just the three of them. Which was three generations,
which I thought was just super. And they did all their fishing up there. They have stories to tell.
So both boys were really active. We’re really happy. And we have three grandchildren. And
expecting another one, hopefully. Other than that, I don’t know…
(24:23)
MJ: Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. When we were married at Fort Sheridan, of course, they had
a reception for us. And they came out with this big beautiful wedding cake. And, come to find
out, it was made by a German prisoner of war. Who was one of the cooks, one of the p.o.w’s.
And, Ed didn’t know about that until several months later. He probably would have thrown up at
the thought of it. But that was interesting.
JS: Yeah. Cause a lot of the guys talk about coming back and they’ll go to a meal around one of
the big camps in New York, and the meals were all being served by German p.o.w.’s. Did you
yourself see much of the Germans on Fort Sheridan? Were you aware of them on the base, or
did you not…?
�(25:11)
MJ: The p.o.w.’s?
JS: Yeah.
MJ: We had a lot of them there. We had the…what did they call them? The S.S. troops. We
had the bigwigs there. And, I don’t know. I didn’t seem to be frightened of them, but just the
thought of them being there… Of course, they had to toe the mark. They were watched
constantly. I often wondered what happened to them. Because it would be the same as P.o.w.’s
over there. But…but quite a difference, because the German prisoners were really treated well.
When they weren’t overseas.
(25:57)
JS: Well, some of them just stayed. They all had the chance to go home, and some of them
found a way to stay in this country and are still here.
MJ: I’m sure there are quite a few…
JS: But they’re less likely to be the S.S. guys, though, than the regulars. But that was…and we
were using them for farm work here in Michigan. They were all over the place.
MJ: Yes. I think they probably went to farms. But am interesting, an interesting…
JS: All right. Now think back to the time that you spent with the WACs, whether in Arkansas or
at Fort Sheridan. Are there any other kind of particular things that kind of stick in your head,
about that? Either individual people or things that happened to you?
(26:47)
MJ: I can remember one particular time that I got really close to a patient who had been in some
kind of a wreck. And her face was just about shattered. And I was assigned to just take care of
her. And I was with her just constantly, you know, for the whole shift. And I had to keep
putting compresses on her face. Soothing her and trying to help her emotionally, and I remember
her name. She was a lieutenant. Lieutenant Edith Rittenberg. And she was a wonderful
wonderful lady. And she made it, she finally recovered. She didn’t recover there, but she went,
I think she went to some big hospital out west. That was one where I felt like I was really doing
good.
(27:56)
MJ: But at the Army/Navy General Hosptial, I can still picture those guys. That was
heartbreaking. And that was just one small segment of the war. You think of the nurses that
were overseas and had to do all that hard work. Tirelessly. They were on their feet constantly.
JS: But in those days, it took a very long time to recover from wounds. And men would be in
bed for months and months and months at a time, and somebody had to look after them and take
care of them, so that went on for a long time.
�MJ: Right. I was really happy that I went into the service. It’s just that the best part of it for me
was meeting Ed.
(28:38)
JS: Did you find that having had that nursing training was helpful to you when you became a
technician?
MJ: Absolutely. Absolutely. Especially for the classwork. So. There’s so many terms that you
better be familiar with, that you better be on your toes or out you go, you know. But I was really
disappointed that I couldn’t finish nurse’s training. But it just wasn’t to be, so…
JS: Okay. Well, in the end, you came out pretty well.
MJ: Very well. Very well.
JS: I’d just like to thank you for taking your time to add your story to the collection.
(29:14)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_JohnsonM1348V
Title
A name given to the resource
Johnson, Mae (Interview transcript and video), 2012
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-02-08
Description
An account of the resource
Mae Johnson was born in Waterbury, Connecticut, in 1919. She graduated from Leavenworth High School in 1937 and eventually went to nursing school. Because she could not finish nursing school, Mae traveled to California with a friend. After visiting California, she decided she would enlist in Woman's Army Corps (WAC) in New Haven, Connecticut. She was then sent to Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia for basic training. After basic training, Mae was sent to Hot Springs, Arkansas where she worked in a hospital as she was assigned to the Surgical and Medical Wards. Once she was finished in Arkansas in early 1945, she was sent to Fort Sheridan, Illinois where she maintained a similar position as before. While at Fort Sheridan she met her future husband and met many German POWs.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Johnson, Mae
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army. Women's Army Corps
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
World War II
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b203229da78ec83608b418be208f6606.mp4
8536692a753a4e9fa15c8ca2bfe3919b
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1f26a55d62bb17208bec1a10b6d4c803.pdf
3823906995f5cf16da021c60fcef49eb
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran : Harold Soper
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Christopher Kroupa
Interviewer: We’re talking today with Harold Soper of Grand Rapids Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Ok,
can you start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with where and when were
you born?
Veteran: I was born in 1920, April 16 in Indianapolis Indiana. I lived there three years and then
we moved to Berrien Springs, Michigan. Lived there for about six years and then we moved to
Grand Rapids, Michigan. Where I lived all my life.
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Until I went into college and went on my own.
Interviewer: Alright, now what was your family doing for a living when you were growing up?
Veteran: My dad was, worked for Kraft, Kraft cheese, he was a district manager for Kraft Foods.
And he had all of Western Michigan and he had northern Indiana. And his job was to go around
to make sure all the salesmen were selling the products and were doing their jobs.
Interviewer: Ok
�Veteran: So, he was a manager for them.
Interviewer: Ok so now was that a steady job for him for him in the thirties?
Veteran: Oh definitely.
Interviewer: Okay so, there’s a depression going on and maybe not hitting you as directly as
some people.
Veteran: Didn’t hit us at all.
Interviewer: Ok alright and then where did you go to high school?
Veteran: I went to high school in Grand Rapids named Creston, Creston High school.
Interviewer: That’s still there, yeah, ok. And when did you graduate high school?
Veteran: 1938.
Interviewer: Alright and after you got out of high school, where did you go?
Veteran: I went to Michigan State for four years.
�Interviewer: Ok and were you still in college when Pearl Harbor happened?
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Ok and do you remember how you heard about it?
Veteran: Oh yes, I remember, I was, I belonged to a fraternity, and we were, we were, just kinda
parting, doing some uh part…
(2:00)
Interviewer: Partying yeah.
Veteran: And at the time of day I heard about it oh it was awfully exciting and awfully disturbing
let’s put it that way.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: Yeah that was terrible because we were graduating, and we knew that it would affect
us.
�Interviewer: Alright, now what did you do about that? Did you go off and enlist, or did you wait
to get drafted?
Veteran: No I, well I waited to graduate and I was drafted before I graduated.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: I had to graduate after I was drafted.
Interviewer: Alright and did they allow you to stay in school to finish the term or?
Veteran: Uh-huh (Nods head yes).
Interviewer: Ok.
Veteran: The draft ward had to get another list of men, and I was it.
Interviewer: Right, ok now once you’ve been drafted then, so now it’s the middle of 42 at this
point, so I guess July, where did they send you then for training?
Veteran: Fort Belvoir for basic training, three months of basic training.
�Interviewer: Ok and what did that consist of?
Veteran: Oh, that consisted of going on marches, learning about various weapons that we used,
quite a few classes, but a lot of training to build us up and strengthen us. We did marches and
calisthenics and all that type of thing.
Interviewer: Ok,
Veteran: To get ourselves into shape.
Interviewer: Alright, now let’s see, is that in Virginia?
Veteran: Yes
Interviewer: Yeah ok, now were all of you there just for general training, or were you all going to
go into the same part of the army?
Veteran: No, we just for general training,
Interviewer: Ok
Veteran: People went various places after that.
�Interviewer: Alright, now when you were at Michigan State, had you done any ROTC there?
(4:00)
Veteran: No
Interviewer: Ok
Veteran: I had no interest in that.
Interviewer: And that wasn’t a requirement at the time you went there?
Veteran: (Shakes head no)
Interviewer: Ok, alright so now you spend three months in Virginia, and at Fort Belvoir did you
have to stay on the base the whole time?
Veteran: On weekends we could, we could take off.
Interviewer: And did you remember if you went anywhere? Like to Washington or Richmond?
Veteran: Haha, yeah, I went to Richmond and I actually found a young gal there and went to see
her every weekend I could. Got so attracted to her that after I was on furlough, I invited her up to
�Grand Rapids to meet my family. And I think she was very disappointed but then I went off to
the wars and we corresponded for a bit of time, but I finally cut it off.
Interviewer: Ok um, but in the meantime, you had a pretty good time while in basic training?
Veteran: Yup
Interviewer: Yeah, at least better than most, ok now once you finished the training then what did
they do with you? Is this where they sent you to Texas or?
Veteran: Then, then, we were assigned to an air force administrative group, to go, well we were
put on a troop ship, and the troop ship because of the German U-Boats we had to go way around
South Africa, South America I mean, South Africa I mean, South Africa way down into the cold
area down there and up to Bombay, and I got off at Bombay and four of us were supposed to go
to this Air Corps administrative thing I talked about,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
(5:56)
Veteran: But when we got there, we found out that the class had already started so then they
assigned us to another group. They assigned us to a group out of Wyoming, the head of the group
�was a very nice guy from Wyoming and all the troops were sheep herders. And I came in as a
private, as a,
*Phone ringing in background*
Interviewer: Let’s wait for that to finish ringing here.
*Phone reads phone number*
Veteran: See that isn’t for us.
Interviewer: Yeah, right.
Veteran: We get those all the time.
Interviewer: Yeah, oh yeah
Interviewer: Okay, well, let’s
Veteran: So, I went into the Army as a private
Interviewer: Right
�Veteran: And, just by the grace of God I got into this, this particular company,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And these guys were a bunch of, they had never been to college or just a bunch of sheep
herders.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: They were prone to drink a lot and, so the guy was a corporal, he goofed off and so I
got his position and over a period of about three months I got all the way up to Master Sergeant.
How they, there was one guy who was a Tech Sergeant which is which is like may starting salary
grade six, there was a guy there that Tech Sergeant fired and he he’d rather have that position
which had different duties then the master, so I got all the way to Master Sergeant in a short
period of time.
Interviewer: Okay, now to get over I mean to get to the Indian Ocean, I mean you talked about
going around Africa and so forth, do you remember anything about that sea voyage?
(7:59)
Veteran: Twice, twice our boat had to make a sudden jerk to avoid a German U-Boat.
�Interviewer: Right, do you,
Veteran: That was it, that was the only exciting thing.
Interviewer: Okay now were you in a convoy or just by yourself?
Veteran: Oh we were, the troop ship was, was a large, it had been a pleasure boat.
Interviewer: Okay so an ocean liner.
Veteran: Yeah and I think we had ten thousand troops I think on there. It was a nice big boat.
Interviewer: Okay, and some of those were fast enough that they went without escorts.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: We, we had when we went around Rio de Janeiro, in that area, we had air cover.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, yeah cause that’s available from there and that was part of it, but were
there parts of the ocean you were just out there by yourself?
�Veteran: That’s right.
Interviewer: Okay, do your, was the weather bad or was it ok?
Veteran: No, I remember the weather was nice .
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. Alright and then do remember anything about Bombay, you stayed there
a while?
Veteran: Oh yeah, what happened was, the four of us, got there and the place that we were
supposed to go, they already started so they put us on a, told us to just stay there so we were
there seven days.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So over seven days we just wandered around the town of Bombay. We were GIs and
the people there were all good to us, and it was a nice experience, and then we got on a small
boat, it took us up the Tigris-Euphrates River to Khorramshahr, Iran.
Interviewer: Right .
Veteran: And right across the river was Basra, Iraq.
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm, yup
Veteran: They were right across the river from each other. And so, we were stationed there for a
period of time.
Interviewer: Okay, so what kind of setup did you have in Iran, just live in tents or in a town? Or?
(9:59)
Veteran: Yeah, we were, we were in tents and we were in tents so we got there, they had
barracks made by the time we left. They did a lot of construction work there while we were
there, making it a little nicer for the troops that came after us. But while we were there, we went
into town, I went all the way out to Tehran, took a truck, a truck took us up to Tehran and we had
another, Hamadan was another city in Iran that troops went up too that was a nice town and good
to us and also we went over to Basra and I went up into Iraq, I can’t remember the names of the
cities but up 100, 200 miles up into Iraq. So, we really got to see that country while we were
there.
Interviewer: Ok, how, what kind of impression did you have of the people in these places?
Veteran: Well, the Iranian Government was really bad, they killed off people like, like nothing.
They were like the Russians, if anyone stole or something why they just killed them. But the
Russians said they buried them alive if they caught someone stealing. They were both the
�Russians and the Iranians were cruel to their people. But, Iraq their government was a little more
humane.
Interviewer: Now did you have a sense that the people resented your being there or were happy
to have you there or didn’t care?
Veteran: Well see I was, like I said in charge of this what they call the oil dump and their
sending all these things up to Russia and I had forty, forty foremen, and they were all Muslims.
(12:09)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: All college-educated Muslims, and they just loved me,
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Because I didn’t smoke or drink and they were so glad to know that Americans weren’t
these tough guys that these construction workers were getting drunk all the time, smoking and
all. And I told them those guys, they’re not typical Americans at all and I found out that, you
know I was Christian and again I didn’t smoke or drink at all and they just loved me. I treated
them good and then they oversee the 800 workers that loaded these trucks.
�Interviewer: Okay, now had they been educated in Iran or any of them gone abroad?
Veteran: I think, I can’t tell ya, they were all college-educated. I don’t know.
Interviewer: But they spoke English?
Veteran: Oh, very well.
Interviewer: Yeah okay, now my understanding is that what was going on in Iran in part was that
the British and the Soviets were sorta taking over the main railway that went from the Persian
Gulf up north.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So that was a supply route that you’re using.
Veteran: That railroad was one of the supply routes.
Interviewer: Okay and the British were in charge of the half from Tehran south, did you ever see
any British Military personnel?
Veteran: Oh yes, when I went into town.
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So never, I never cozied up to them because usually they were drinking and kinda that’s
where I would see them you know in these restrooms and places and they’re kinda rowdy.
Interviewer: Okay, so you didn’t have any official dealings with them or anything else like that?
Veteran: No
(13:58)
Interviewer: Okay, now when you’re over in Iran, did you have much communication with
people back home?
Veteran: Uh yeah, what did we have, we had was it something like an email it was,
Interviewer: Now they have V-Mail right?
Veteran: V-Mail! (Nods head yes)
Interviewer: Right and then they take a picture of it or whatever.
Veteran: Exactly.
�Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: And I was pretty, pretty faithful in keeping contact with my family.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay, did you feel like you were kind of missing out on the war over there or was it
interesting enough that it didn’t matter?
Veteran: Well I’ll tell ya my dad was in World War One and he was a captain.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: And he actually was right in the fight, in fact we actually was out in no man’s land and
caught a German soldier and brought him back but and he was quite disappointed that first I
didn’t become an officer.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And second that I, where I went,
�Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: He, his first reaction was that he wished it were otherwise but then after that he
accepted it.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. And did you have any feeling about that yourself or you were just gonna
go where they sent you?
Veteran: Exactly.
Interviewer: Okay, now eventually you rotate home, you don’t stay in Iran for the entire war.
How did that come about?
Veteran: Yeah, you have to be over there, I didn’t know that at the time but, eighteen months
before you go back to the states.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: And so after 18 months I, I came to the headquarters there and said I wanted to go to
the Quartermaster Officers training, and that’s when they told me, well Quartermaster is already
in session, they’ve, in 2 or 3 weeks that will be that, but besides you’re not qualified because
you’re not a limited service guy, which is one of the requirements, so I, that’s when I said I
�would go with the Corps of Engineers. So, I signed up with them and went into their basic
training.
(16:36)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: There’s a thirteen-month thing to become an officer. I was there 10 weeks of that
terribly hard training and then I, like I told ya, the officer in charge there said, you know because
you’re doing so well in the written exams and all, you’re gonna pass but 40% of these guys are
gonna fail because we’re gonna take 60% of them.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: And these guys ya know they build Bailey Bridges and they’ve been enlisted men, it’s a
shame because you can be an officer but you’ll never be able to do a good job of commanding
them if you don’t understand the work, and I agreed with that wholeheartedly, and so, I agreed to
quit after 10 weeks,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: And like you say, he, well he just told me to go to wherever the Quartermaster LCS
was. Anyway I was sent there and when I got there like I say they were already in operation and
�so I went back to the Corps of Engineers and said place me someplace and so I was very
fortunate, ya know I had a college education in accounting and so they sent me to Chicago where
they were, they were, had military contracts as we got near the end of the war, and many of the
military contracts were being closed. So that was my job,
(18:30)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: To close military contracts, filling office standpoint. And so, I lived in Chicago for one
year what they call,
*Phone ringing in background*
Veteran: Called rations and quarters,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: I stayed in a hotel and got my food paid for,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: And I had a certain amount of money to spend.
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: And after one year there, they transferred me to Indianapolis, and I did the same thing
up there.
Interviewer: Okay, now where were you when the war ended? Were you in Chicago at that
point?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah and then I went up there and you know, it was just wonderful the work I did, I
was trained in school and I can do and not many people could do that, and I lived (illegible).
Interviewer: Right, now when you were doing this kind of work, did problems come up? Were
there any companies you were dealing with that were
Veteran: Oh yeah.
(19:59)
�Interviewer: Anything,
Veteran: In fact, I had to many times I had to visit these companies.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: Oh yeah. Oh, I don’t think I ever got one contract closed that I didn’t have to at least
one visit. I had a company car and in fact a lot of times I had a company driver to take me these
places depending on if it was close by at all then I could drive the company car, but if they
thought it was all the way or a dangerous way I’d have a driver.
Interviewer: Okay, so a company car, like an army car basically.
Veteran: Mm-hmm.
Interviewer: Yeah, alright, now you were still a Master Sergeant at this point?
Veteran: *Nods head* Mm-hmm.
Interviewer: And then did you go in a formal dress uniform and try to look impressive?
Veteran: No, no I was always in a uniform.
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: Always. And actually, in the Army most people have more respect for a Master
Sergeant then a certainly a Second Lieutenant.
Interviewer: Oh yeah.
Veteran: And probably even the First Lieutenant, in fact when I was in Iran there, I had a First
Lieutenant who was there to, as my boss,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And he just sat around.
Interviewer: Well the Sergeants do the work,
Veteran: I did all the work, he didn’t, he was there, he’d been in the war and he actually had been
wounded.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: And he was, he’d been in the hospital, the reserves for recovery.
�Interviewer: Now, the unit that was in Iran, you said they were from Wyoming, would that have
been a reserve unit or National Guard unit?
Veteran: It was a reserve.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you had your core group of guys who were in it and,
Veteran: Yup.
Interviewer: That’s where they got sent, okay. Now in that unit were you pretty much the only
guy from someplace else?
Veteran: Yeah. Uh no, there were four of us.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: There were four of us.
Interviewer: Yeah, the four of you came together that’s right.
Veteran: The other three guys, they never advanced at all,
(22:03)
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: They didn’t care to.
Interviewer: So, they just joined the rest of the group and,
Veteran: Yeah, they just joined it and then they didn’t care whether they got to be an officer, or
even an enlisted officer or not,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But they’re nice guys, but they were certainly nothing like me.
Interviewer: Right, now it’s a lot of times soldiers, if they’re stationed in a rear area in some
other country, can get into a lot of interesting kinds of trouble, there could be women, there could
be black markets or other things like that, did much of that happen? Or in Iran was the society
more tightly controlled than that?
Veteran: Yeah, there were women and some of these guys would get involved with them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
�Veteran: But I, I just wasn’t aware of much of it,
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I didn’t do it myself,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: And I just heard what they did, but I’m not too knowledgeable about that,
Interviewer: Right, and I wouldn’t think that in, you would necessarily have a lot of bars and
places like that.
Veteran: They had the bars,
Interviewer: They had bars okay, I guess they wouldn’t after the Islamic state took over, but that
was a long time afterward.
Veteran: Mm-hmm. Right, oh yeah.
Interviewer: Alright, so when you were talking about doing again this business of closing
contracts and things like that, what kinds of business were you dealing with? Were they
manufacturers or?
�Veteran: Oh yeah, they were, one of them was weapons manufacturer, a number of them
supplied things like clothing,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(22:58)
Veteran: Uniforms and I remember several of them were in the uniform and, let’s see what other
things were there, supplying that the military need that weren’t necessarily military items, but I
don’t remember any food companies,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, okay
Veteran: That’s about it.
Interviewer: Okay alright, but yeah, I mean you have all this stuff that you need to run the offices
with and all the various kinds of equipment besides the weapons and so forth. But basically, you
were pretty much responsible for a wide range of different things and the companies that were
just in those areas?
Veteran: Yeah
�Interviewer: Okay, alright now did the Army,
*Phone ringing in the background*
Veteran: Aren’t they awful
Interviewer: Yeah, did they army make any effort to get you to stay on or did they just want
everyone to go away?
Veteran: They did, they did ask me if I didn’t wanna go into, become an Officer and stay,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: I had, in the end they gave me that opportunity.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I turned it down.
Interviewer: Okay, now so when did you get out of the Army?
Veteran: I got out in ‘46.
�Interviewer: Okay, so after you got out what did you do?
Veteran: I went back to, to University of Michigan and got my master’s degree,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And actually that, my tuition and everything was paid for by some organization that
heard about what I did and all, and I can’t remember what the organization was, but it was some
organization in Chicago that paid for all of that for me.
(26:02)
Interviewer: Okay, you mean somebody that you had somehow done business with, or had a
connection with from that time?
Veteran: No, I didn’t have any connection with them,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: They just made that available and somebody in the military there made that available to
me,
Interviewer: Okay,
�Veteran: And then contacted,
Interviewer: So, you got into that from,
Veteran: So, I mean they were just doing it for anybody that they felt had done a good job in the
military.
Interviewer: Okay, and was this in accounting or something else that you did? The master’s
degree.
Veteran: Business Administration.
Interviewer: Okay, and then once you finished that, did you go find a job?
Veteran: Oh yeah, first I, I wasn’t sure what company I wanted to go with, and so I became a
CPA, certified public accountant.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I went around and audited the books of a lot of people, I did that for a couple of
years, and then, then I went to Ford Motor Company. I was there for 26 years.
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I started out as a, as an auditor, internal auditing, and I worked up to the controller of
the company.
Interviewer: Okay, and did you retire out of there, or move onto something else?
Veteran: No I retired from there. I retired from there about, what I did, no I didn’t, I retired from
there but then I went back into a, CPA work.
Interviewer: Okay, yeah.
Veteran: And it was just, it was just the Lord leading because one of the big clients I had was in
Muskegon, and the job there took about two months in the middle of winter, and that’s when I
met my wife, one of the gals who worked at the client, was a friend of my, my wife and she fixes
up on a blind date, and that was the beginning,
(28:11)
Interviewer: Alright
Veteran: That was, yeah that was wonderful.
�Interviewer: Okay, when you kind of look back at the time you spent in the service, what do you
think you took out of that, or learned from it?
Veteran: Well certainly, oh, I grew up I guess, and became an adult and knew what was going on
in the world, and I was a little bit, little bit unhappy with the way I, I lived a more controlled life,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: In the church, and the church community you know, I just didn’t know a lot, some of
the people out there who live so vulgarly,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: And so yeah, I think the main thing I say is I grew up and knew what was generally
going on in the world and I was then happy to come back into a climate of a church and a
Christian school, and all that type of thing, it made me appreciate it more.
Interviewer: Alright, okay, well you were telling me you know you don’t remember as much as
you used to but I can say that you told us enough to make this worth coming and recording the
interview, and I can safely say that I’ve never talked to anybody who had either of your jobs, so
thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me today.
Veteran: Well it’s been my honor and my privilege to do it, thank you.
�Interviewer: Alright.
(29:54)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_SoperH2123V
Title
A name given to the resource
Soper, Harold (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Soper was born on April 16, 1920 in Indianapolis, Indiana and settled into Grand Rapids in 1929. Soper was drafted into the Army before finishing college and went on to supervise the American Oil Dump being shipped through Iran and Iraq to the Soviet Union. After being turned away from the Army Corps of Engineering and officers' training, he was relocated to Chicago and Indianapolis to close domestic military contracts. After leaving the service, Soper finished his schooling and earned a master's degree in accounting.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Soper, Harold S.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
World War II
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/34d7f3fa88b9612de4b684bd32ddaabe.mp4
68b5f5449ebbc07797731c1102cfb553
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dc740b15f7c41949f1b3d43c064f2476.pdf
286210e5e9d6a20ea4430ea619ec1818
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Will Holton
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: We are talking today with Will Holton of Grand Rapids, Michigan, and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History
Project. Okay, now Will, can you start us off on some background on yourself? And to
begin with, where and when were you born?
Veteran: I was born in Crockett County, Tennessee.
Interviewer: And your date of birth?
Veteran: January the 19th, 1919.
Interviewer: Very good. And how long did you live there?
Veteran: When I was 4 years old, my parents went to Blytheville, Arkansas. And they stayed at
Blytheville, Arkansas until I was 14.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and so at that time, when you were in Arkansas, what was your
family doing for a living?
Veteran: Oh, farmer. We were farmer.
Interviewer: Alright. And did you rent land? Or did you own land?
Veteran: Well, before we went to Arkansas…Okay, my father was raised by Arleyy Loud and
Book [?] Loud, so far as I know, I am just going by what I am told because see I don’t know. He
owned, you know like—He was their guy so he run things. So I say, when I was four years old,
�then he left and went to Arkansas. We stayed there like ten years and then we come right back to
where we left. Then we stayed there until I was 16, then we went to Alamo. That’s the county,
the biggest town in Crockett County. Then there, I started to work for the county. (00:02:00)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, how much schooling did you have?
Veteran: 10th grade.
Interviewer: Okay. And so then, you started working for the county?
Veteran: At 19 years old.
Interviewer: Okay, and what work were you doing?
Veteran: Back then they had what they called a WPA and so you wasn’t supposed to get on the
WPA until you were 20 years old, but I got married when I was 18 years old. Before I got
married, I signed up. They had a program that’s called you work two days and you go to school
three days. That’s what I signed up for. But I got married before the card come back. When it
come back, it said the WPA. So, my daddy didn’t sign up for me…
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: So, they had to—I wasn’t old enough but beings I was married, they had to let me work
so they give me the water—I was a water boy until there was a man that…A hard guy that
knowed my parents. He seen after the tractors and things. When he found out I was, you know,
he took me—then I worked with him, gas up the tractors and caterpillar and put the new regular
tracks on and everything. And so, I worked there for three years. Then after that cut out, I went
to Paris, Tennessee. And they were building an army camp, and I worked up there all winter.
�And when that job was played out, I come back to Alamo. And then I went to work at the fish
plant in Malvern.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: But then I worked at—my wife died. And then, about 6 months after my wife died, I
had to go to the Army. (00:04:01)
Interviewer: Okay, you got a draft notice then. Do you remember how you heard about
Pearl Harbor?
Veteran: I heard about Pearl Harbor after I got out to the Army.
Interviewer: Okay, so when that happened, you didn’t have—
Veteran: I mean, Pearl Harbor? Oh yeah.
Interviewer: The attack, yeah.
Veteran: Pearl Harbor, I said they bombed Pearl Harbor in ’41. I was at home then. It was in ’42,
I went to the Army.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: I thought you was talking about the bomb.
Interviewer: No, no. That comes later.
Veteran: I heard about that after I got out to the Army.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. Now, when the war started, did you expect that you would have
to go in the Army? Or did you think that because you had a family to take care of and
everything else, they’d leave you alone?
�Veteran: Well to tell you the truth, I just didn’t really think nothing about it at all.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you notice other people getting drafted or going off?
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now when they drafted you, how did that work? Did they send
you a letter? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah. Well see, I lived right there in the town, and so I passed the draft board—I was
ready to hit the draft board.
Interviewer: Oh Okay. So, you are right there anyway…
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah, and so you—
Veteran: So, they just knowed—they didn’t have to send me the letter, they just called me
because they all knowed.
Interviewer: Alright, they said “Hey Will, you’re going in the Army now.”
Veteran: They called me and then they gave me a piece of paper then I read it. It said what time
to be at the, you know, draft boards.
Interviewer: Okay. Where did they send you for the first part of your training?
Veteran: Fort Benning, Georgia.
Interviewer: Okay. And then how did they get you to Fort Benning?
Veteran: On the train.
�Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: From home, I caught the bus to Jackson, Tennessee. Then from Jackson, Tennessee, I
had to catch a train to Fort Benning, Georgia.
Interviewer: Alright, now this is 1940s, and the south is still segregated. So, did you have to
ride on the back of a bus or in a separate train car or…?
Veteran: Well you know that’s…A lot of folks said that but at that time, at Tennessee, I had
never rode the bus.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I never went nowhere. Whenever I’d go, I just sat wherever I wanted because I never
rode the bus.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: You know, I have heard a lot of people talk about that but…See in Crockett County, in
Tennessee, you know I heard stuff said like Jim Crowe? I never experienced it.
Interviewer: So, this is just sort of small towns and small communities and people know
each other…
Veteran: Yeah. Well no, I wouldn’t say they love each other, I just say I never experienced it. I
don’t know what the other folks did. Around my hometown, most of the people, they knowed
me. Lot of them said I did every a good self. (00:07:08)
Interviewer: Alright. Okay.
�Veteran: Because I did, I guess I like this example. The white people raised my daddy. Well, in
that town, I would help, you know, I didn’t care if you were white or black. I just didn’t see
color, I see person. I don’t care what color you is. If you’re nice, I would be nice. But if you
wasn’t nice, I wouldn’t be nice.
Interviewer: That makes sense. Alright, okay well now you’ve gone and joined the Army.
Now… and you get to Fort Benning, and what happens there?
Veteran: Well I said and then they sent us down to Cusseta, Alabama [actually Georgia].
Interviewer: Well, talk a little bit about the training at Fort Benning. What did you learn
there?
Veteran: Well I said you do infantry training.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You learn how to shoot a gun, lay out at night and sleep in the blankets and things. Just
Army… (00:08:10)
Interviewer: Okay. And then, they also have to teach you how to follow orders and how to
march and those kinds of things?
Veteran: Oh yeah. Well, I got most of that after I hit—they didn’t teach you much. Would take
us to camp south of Alabama. That way before you returned, you had main training. At Fort
Benning, Georgia they just—you didn’t get around just keep your upside, you didn’t just sit
around in the bed. But the captain said at Alabama, they start doing the real training. You know
you lay out at night and sleep in the shelter there. And I tell you…And then we got to Texas,
then they issue a rifle. Then they make you have—you go to bed at night, you keep your rifle in
�bed with you. You could move but if they caught you moving without your rifle, you got extra
duty.
Interviewer: Do you know where you were in Texas?
Veteran: They said west Texas, but I forget what camp it was.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, there were a lot of camps. So there is Fort Bliss in El Paso, or do
you think you weren’t that far over?
Veteran: Well, all I know is that we were right outside Abilene.
Interviewer: Okay, so—
Veteran: I don’t know what name of the camp.
Interviewer: Alright, well there were a lot of them so…Actually no, somebody researching
that could look that up and they’d figure that out.
Veteran: I told you it was around Abilene, Texas.
Interviewer: Okay, now were all of the men—was this an all-black unit that you were
training with?
Veteran: We had a couple of—we had a guy named Elwood Lorett—we had a couple of white
guys. Well, let’s say it like that. When they come to the state, they settled as white. But see they
Frenchmen. When they back in France, they settle as Africa. But see now, what they was, I don’t
know. (00:10:10)
Interviewer: Alright. But the Army itself was segregated, so you would get put into an allblack unit?
�Veteran: Yeah, I would say so.
Interviewer: Okay. Now the people who were—now the drill instructors as they were
training you, how did they treat you?
Veteran: Well they were…they was black.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: We had the captain, and most of the lieutenant, most of them was all white. But they
didn’t train you.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: The first sergeant and the sergeant and the staff, all of them would train you.
Interviewer: Mhmm. Okay, so the non-coms were black. The non-commissioned officers,
the sergeants and the corporals, those were all black.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay, so they were training you. Now, how did they treat you?
Veteran: Well they was really nice, and like I said, in the Army I wasn’t really that nice because
I was trying to get a dishonorable discharge. But I said, they treated me nice. We had a few little
frictions but I say…they had me a couple of times but I’d say I had good sense.
Interviewer: Well, what were you doing to try to get a discharge?
Veteran: Some orders, I wouldn’t follow.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: Like if they put me on extra duties, some I’d do, some I wouldn’t. And they said “they
going to put you in the guardhouse.” And I said “I don’t care.”
Interviewer: So, did they put you in the guardhouse?
Veteran: No, they wouldn’t. I said the captain asked me…I was corporal of the guard and I had
an apartment in town, so when you go out at 5 o’clock in the evening, you can’t get off until 5
o’clock the next evening. But, when I took my meal off a guard at 5 o’clock in the morning, I
asked him for his sergeant. I had an apartment in town, and there was something I wanted to go
get. And I asked him, “Could I go?” And he said “No.” I told him I was going anyhow. So he
told the captain. The captain called me into the office, and I went in the office, saluted him. He
says, “Did you tell the sergeant you going to town?” “Yep.” He said, “Don’t you know you could
be court martialed?” I said, “Yep.” He says, “You going?” “Yep.” “If I gave you a pass, will you
go and come back and make a good soldier?” “Yep.” I just wanted an hour but he gave me a 12hour pass. But I was going in the house. (00:12:50)
Interviewer: Okay, sure. That’ll help. Okay, so maybe you were actually good at your job?
Veteran: Oh yeah, I’d say.
Interviewer: Okay, now when you were in Texas, were you now training as an engineer
unit?
Veteran: No, truck driver.
Interviewer: You were a truck driver at this point, okay.
Veteran: I got pitched so well. I trained down there as a truck driver.
�Interviewer: Okay. But were you now training with the unit that you had served with
overseas? Or had you not joined them yet?
Veteran: No, no.
Interviewer: This is just general training still?
Veteran: When they sent me to Alabama, they take so many—after you train at this for 18
weeks…I forget, however…Then they bussed us up. They put you where they think they need
you. You know, you didn’t—I’d guess I was in about 5 different outfits. The last outfit was the
end of the year one when I went overseas. But I went from infantry training to truck driver
training. Then I went for that big gun. The ringing, I don’t hear so good.
Interviewer: Okay, so you had artillery training?
Veteran: What?
Interviewer: Artillery training then?
Veteran: Yeah, 155 millimeter.
Interviewer: Yeah, those are big guns. (00:14:12)
Veteran: Yeah, so that’s the reason I don’t hear so good.
Interviewer: Okay, now do you remember where you did the artillery training?
Veteran: Yeah, Camp Wilson, Louisiana.
Interviewer: Okay, that’s in Louisiana. Alright. Okay.
Veteran: And then from there, they sent us down to Camp—Camp Shelby, Mississippi, where
we took engineer training.
�Interviewer: Alright. Now, with the engineer training, what were they actually teaching
you to do?
Veteran: Build a—we had to, like I said, pontoon—you know what a pontoon bridge is?
Interviewer: Mhmm.
Veteran: And then infantry rafts and things. They teach you how to. In other words, we stayed
between the field artillery and the infantry so in Germany when they’d go put bombs in the
highways, you know, and mines. Our job was to clean out the mines. And we had a bridge
brought in on a truck. We put out a bridge—we’d have to blow up a bridge, then put our bridge
down and let the truck go by until we could get another built. Then we’d take our bridge up and
put it on the truck. You know.
Interviewer: And then do it again.
Veteran: That was our job.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Until I said we had to go up for reinforcements.
Interviewer: Right, but that comes later in the story.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, we are going to try to follow things in order. So, you are bouncing around
a lot in the west, from one camp to another, and one training assignment to another?
Veteran: Yeah.
�Interviewer: So, this would be going on probably through much of 1943. So, you’re
spending probably the better part of a year doing this?
Veteran: Yeah, because you had 13 weeks. At each place, you spent 13 weeks.
Interviewer: Yeah. And you’ve got about 4 different places, so.
Veteran: Until I was in Mississippi.
Interviewer: Right. Okay.
Veteran: So, when they…they sent one lieutenant down…one they had sent to Fort Benning
Georgia. I mean from Camp Wilson, Louisiana to Mississippi. They sent a lieutenant and said he
was training us to go overseas. So, we went through the 13 weeks of training. And at first, when
it got time to take a test, the first sergeant told us to flunk the test. He said if you didn’t—if we
didn’t flunk the test, we was going overseas. So, we flunked the test. So that lieutenant left and
they sent another, Captain Emerhoe. He looked like he was around 60 years old. So, the sergeant
said we had to go back over that same test. And he told us we could pass the test because he was
too old to go anywhere. So, when the test come up, we would all pass the test. Then a week after
we passed the test, they quarantined us. That means you couldn’t go nowhere. So, then we asked
sergeant “what’s the matter?” He said, “I don’t know.” In about another week, they said “You’re
going to Camp…Camp Shanks, New York.” He told us then, “Now we know where we’re
going.” (00:17:40)
Interviewer: Yeah. Because that was one of the main places for sending people over across
to Europe from.
Veteran: Yeah.
�Interviewer: Alright. Now, during the time when you are at these different bases, were you
always able to move around off base without any trouble? Was it—
Veteran: Oh yeah, we didn’t have no trouble. When we was in Mississippi, they issued us all
knives. And they told us men, two of you three stay together. So, MP—the police, the regular
police, couldn’t arrest us. (00:18:16)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: After one MP—we didn’t—they didn’t have nothing to say to us. So, they told us
you’re going over-seas, you may get killed, so don’t take nothing off of nobody. That’s the order
we got from the Army.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Till… then the police didn’t mess with us, unless there was an MP with them. If the MP
with them, they can say something to us. But if the MP wasn’t with them.
Interviewer: But if anybody was going to arrest you, it would have to be the MP?
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Right, okay. So, okay, so they worked better than maybe most people think
they did. Okay.
Veteran: Well I heard a lot of people saying things went on in the Army that I don’t know
nothing about.
Interviewer: Yeah, well, the idea here is we want to know what you saw and what you did
and what you remember. So that, that’s good. Okay, now, so they send you now to Camp
Shanks, New York. Now, what unit are you with now?
�Veteran: 1697 Engineer Company.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you are now with your engineer battalion, and you have been
training with them in Mississippi and now you are moving as a group…Okay. What kind
of ship did they put you on? Was it just a regular transport? Or an ocean liner?
Veteran: It was the USS Bliss.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I ain’t got the picture but it…
Interviewer: Well, was it a really big ship?
Veteran: Oh yeah, it was a very big one.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you have—was it just your battalion on that ship?
Veteran: Oh no, there was a thousand of us.
Interviewer: Okay, so that…So it’s either a big Army transport or a converted ocean liner.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. So, a big ship. Okay, so in the meantime, when your ship sailed, were
you in a convoy? Or were you by yourself?
Veteran: No, my whole company, my whole outfit.
Interviewer: No, was the ship with a lot of other ships? (00:20:14)
�Veteran: No. Well it was, as far as I could see, because I said once you get on the ship, the ship is
so big, you know. But when you, when we got…After we left the dock, they let us come out on
the top. I could see two other ships, like a convoy, but I don’t know how many.
Interviewer: Yeah, but that would be part of a convoy, because you wouldn’t see that many
of them at once.
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: But if there were other ships there then you had an escort.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay, do you remember what the weather was like when you went across the
ocean?
Veteran: Well the weather was good, if you could say, how the water with the waves flying, if
you could say that is good. But it wasn’t raining or nothing.
Interviewer: Alright. Do you know what time of year it was when you went over? Was it,
you know, when you got over to England, was it warm or cold?
Veteran: It was kind of cold.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You’d have your cold days. I would say it was in the fall of the year.
Interviewer: Okay, that makes sense. Alright. Now, when you were crossing the ocean, did
you ever have any…Did you have any U boat scares?
�Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, a lot of them. Because the ship we was on, the motor went bad and all
those other boats went up and they left. Loaded up about two of those little U boats, and they
would take them…Because they said one time that they came on the ship that the Germans was
trying to tow the main boat. And them little U boats, they were like ducks, going around.
(00:22:05)
Interviewer: Yeah. But those—
Veteran: And then they would drop those ash cans over the back.
Interviewer: Okay, so they left a couple of escorts with you, and they were protecting you
against the Germans. Alright, so you survived that.
Veteran: And after they got that motor fixed, what they said was “oh, you can’t go by what you
hear” they said. Then they, they said, they run into top knot then we caught back up, because we
took about a day or so to catch back up with them.
Interviewer: Alright. And then do you know, do you remember where you landed in
Britain? Did you land up in Scotland? Or did you land in the south—
Veteran: In England.
Interviewer: In England.
Veteran: Uffcott, England.
Interviewer: Okay. And what happens after you get there? Do you go to a camp or…?
Veteran: Well, we head back to a…Like a big place where the rich folks stays.
Interviewer: Okay. So, a big estate of some kind.
�Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And at there we was, they say 50 miles from London where the Germans were dropping
their rockets and…
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, we could, you know. They said we was 50 miles from there. I didn’t go, some of the
soldiers went but I didn’t because the Germans were dropping some of them rockets in London.
Interviewer: Okay. So now you are getting into 1944, because that is when they are sending
the buzz bombs in and all that. Okay. Now did you—and so what were you doing, what was
your unit doing at this place where you were staying? Were you training more? Or just
sitting around?
Veteran: Mostly we were sitting around. Well, we’d do a little but you know, most days we were
just sitting around.
Interviewer: Okay, and then did you get to go into any of the towns in the area or go to a
pub or something like that?
Veteran: I said I didn’t, but some of the soldiers I said.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay.
Veteran: They said we were 50 miles from…We was in Uffcott, England, and they said it was 50
miles from there to London. Some of the soldiers went. I didn’t. (00:24:06)
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: Because they said they were dropping them bombs.
Interviewer: Right. Okay, but did you go into the local town? Did you go into Uffcott or…?
Veteran: Well that, there ain’t no time.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They have a little here what they call a pub, maybe one year. There wasn’t no town or
something like that. It’s a village. That’s what you’d call a village.
Interviewer: Right. Okay, so not a lot going on there?
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: Okay, now was it just your battalion that was on that base? Or were there—
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It was just us out there.
Interviewer: Alright. And within that battalion, did you have a particular job? Or did you
just do whatever they wanted?
Veteran: Let’s see, I was…At the time, I was a Corporal. You had to go on guard, but you
didn’t—we didn’t do no kind of work.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But you had to stand guard. Well, I didn’t stand guard, but I had to put people on guard
and stuff like that.
�Interviewer: Alright. Okay, and so then—but if the unit is actually doing engineer work, if
they are building a bridge for instance—
Veteran: That’s after we went into Germany.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: After they said the Germans broke through the American line, then we, after
reinforcement, then they sent us into Germany.
Interviewer: Okay, now—
Veteran: Then we started building, you know…
Interviewer: Yeah, then you go to work. Okay, now probably, given the timing of things
here, the big German breakthrough happened in December of 1944, and that was the start
of the Battle of the Bulge. And the Americans in fact sent a whole bunch of engineer
battalions in there as reinforcements. Okay, now do you remember—okay, how did they
get you across the English Channel?
Veteran: Through the ship.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And then there, right where we were, there were a lot of other ships that were sunk,
they say a lot of the soldiers were still in them boats. Of course, some of them we went through,
passed some of the ships to cross the channel.
Interviewer: Okay. And then, did you go into a harbor and get off at a dock? Or did you
land on a beach somewhere? (00:26:18)
�Veteran: On the beach.
Interviewer: Okay. Because they were still using Omaha Beach and places like that still.
Okay, and then when you land there, then how do they move you forward?
Veteran: So, we had our own trucks and things.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you just drove?
Veteran: Yeah, they got the orders and we moved. I don’t know what kind of orders they got.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: But our captain was in on them so went he said, and we went.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: Let’s see, we had, we didn’t have just one company. It was 1697 in that combat
battalion. So, we went by ourselves, wherever they sent us. We didn’t send with no other thing.
Interviewer: Right. So, they had, they split—the battalion has several different companies
in it.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: So, your company, with your captain, kind of goes by itself.
Veteran: Yeah, in a company.
Interviewer: Right. Okay, and so you drive across France and probably, did you stay in
France? Or did you go into Belgium? Or did you go straight to Germany? Or do you not
really know?
�Veteran: When we left Uffcott…After we crossed the English Channel, I don’t know where we
went!
Interviewer: You wouldn’t know where you were. Okay. Do you have an idea of how long it
was before you started to build bridges? Or how long it took you to get towards the front of
the line?
Veteran: Well, I said, after they got reinforcements, well I guess about maybe a week or 8 or 10
days, then we fell back and started doing that.
Interviewer: Okay. So probably what is happening is you are being moved up toward
where they think the front line might be, and if the Germans came that way, you would
have had to fight them. (00:28:04)
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, when you first went forward, did you have to dig fox holes or anything like
that? Or did you just camp?
Veteran: No, we didn’t. They should be done, but we didn’t dig no fox holes.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: I said it should be done, but we didn’t dig—I guess some part, some soldiers did, but
we didn’t, no.
Interviewer: Sure. Okay, so they weren’t, that—the Germans weren’t getting that close to
you then?
Veteran: No. See, we went to work. We went and relieved these guys so these guys could go up
to the front.
�Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, we were close enough to see the flashes from them guns and things but we wasn’t
exactly on the front. We left these guys so they could go up to the fight, until they could get
reinforcements, and we fell back.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. But now they have got you over there and now you start building
then. Did you spend most of your time building bridges, or were you doing mind-clearing
or…?
Veteran: That’s what we did, we cleared mines out of the street, we built bridges, and we cleared
mines. That was our job.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, the goal was to bring the ammunition and stuff through. We keep the road clear and
things.
Interviewer: Alright, now when your unit was building bridges, what were you doing?
Veteran: I said I was a guard. I had a .30 caliber machine gun.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I had a .30 caliber machine gun, the guy in the first battalion had a .50 caliber machine
gun mounted on to the back of the truck. I was in the second battalion and I had a .30 caliber
machine gun that was on a tripod.
Interviewer: Mhmm, yep, and so you were protecting…?
Veteran: The guys working.
�Interviewer: The engineers, yeah. Okay, so you didn’t have to do the heavy lifting?
Veteran: No, not me.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: I wasn’t big enough.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: I was very small back in them days.
Interviewer: Okay, now as you are doing this work, did you look around much at the
countryside? Or see anything of the people? Or…? (00:30:08)
Veteran: No, I didn’t.
Interviewer: Okay, you just—
Veteran: I couldn’t speak their language so I just didn’t.
Interviewer: So, you just didn’t. Now—
Veteran: A lot of soldiers did, but me, I just didn’t.
Interviewer: Okay, you just mind your own—Okay, now, you had mentioned before that
you had been married, you know, your wife had died, but you still had children at home at
this time?
Veteran: Yeah, I had one kid, and she was just all of 3 years old.
Interviewer: And who was she living with?
�Veteran: Well, I left her with my mother. But when I was going overseas, I got a letter from my
sister. She said she had her so…
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now did you—and did you write home very much, or did they
write to you? Or did you just…go away?
Veteran: They mostly wrote to me when they wanted something.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so now you are over in Europe, you are building bridges. Now,
when you started doing this, was it during the winter? Was it cold?
Veteran: Yeah, I would say it was winter in England. Yeah, it was cold.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. And then, did you move around a lot? Were you moving forward
regularly? Or did you stay in one area for a long time?
Veteran: I forget. We stayed in one little village until we get the work done. Then we move up.
We always moved up.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you keep moving forward and advancing.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright, and did they tell you much of anything about what was happening in
the war, or did you just…?
Veteran: Well, I said mainly—Me? Not me, I didn’t get any word.
Interviewer: Okay, so your captain might have known something.
Veteran: Yeah, yeah, they knew everything.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: The Sergeants the same but…
Interviewer: Alright. Now, were you normally—did you sleep in tents or in houses or on
the ground? (00:32:04)
Veteran: On the ground. We had shelter halves. I had a half a shelter and the other half, and you
put them together and you just…
Interviewer: Make a little pup tent. Okay, alright.
Veteran: Or sleep on the truck. Pretty much wherever you wanted to sleep, but you couldn’t
sleep in no house.
Interviewer: Okay, so you didn’t get to borrow somebody’s house to sleep there.
Veteran: Oh, no.
Interviewer: But some guys did.
Veteran: Well, the captain, he might have but we didn’t.
Interviewer: Okay, now while you were doing this work, did you ever get hit by enemy
artillery or aircraft? Or ever see any of that?
Veteran: Yeah. We were guarding an ammunition dump. Before we—when we first got into
Germany, well they had the little black out light on the truck, and they told everybody don’t turn
your light on, just use the little black out light. So, we traveled mostly at night, when we were
going on up to the front. And one night, some guy turned his light on and the Germans dropped
one, they said, this like personnel bomber. It hit close enough to the truck to turn the truck over
on one side.
�Interviewer: Okay, so maybe German artillery that shot at you or something?
Veteran: Yeah, I said after we got into Germany, we was camping in the woods and on our side.
Every night at 10 o’clock, there was a guy, I would come over…When you were talking
about…you know what I mean? We know the different sounds of every different plane.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: We knew when it was an American plane, we knew when it was a German plane. One
night, we got the truck stalled at…and a couple of them weren’t very nice so we called them Bed
Check Charlie. If you got a line going, he would turn the machine gun on and shoot at us. So,
every night, we’d be out, we’d hear the plane, so we’d say here come Bed Check Charlie. So, we
turned out all the lights. So, one night we got a truck stalled, and we had a light on, trying to get
the truck un-stalled, and he come over and turned his machine gun on the truck. (00:34:21)
Interviewer: Did he hit the truck?
Veteran: Well, didn’t, he shot at the truck but he didn’t—that, you know, he couldn’t keep it
from running, he just shot. So, they finally…We was on one side of the woods, and he was…But
we didn’t know that. But you know, every night at 12 o’clock, he’d come over. So, they finally
called him, I guess to—the whole outfit went off and left him. And they said he run out of petrol.
I guess he couldn’t run his plane no more and that got him mowed down.
Interviewer: Alright, so eventually, that’s not a problem. Alright.
Veteran: But he, every night, we had a little plane so we named him Bed Check Charlie.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now you are, you’re kind of working your way—Now, do you
remember crossing over the Rhine River into Germany? A really big river?
�Veteran: Yeah, I said when we crossed over, there were a lot of boats that sunk, and they said a
lot of soldiers were still inside.
Interviewer: Well, I think that was the English Channel.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: But then, when you go into Germany, the Rhine River is a major river that’s
inside Germany. And there were—that was an obstacle, a major obstacle when we crossed
it in March of 1945. But, do you remember crossing any really big rivers after you were in
Europe or not?
Veteran: No, I don’t.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: The English Channel was the biggest I’d known.
Interviewer: And then, as you are getting into the springtime and the Allied armies are
moving forward, you’re going to move forward, you’ll build more bridges. Did the scenery
change at all? (00:36:00)
Veteran: Yeah, I’d say. A lot of towns we went to…I remember in Stuttgart, Germany…And we
were building bridges in Stuttgart, Germany. One place when we was in Germany, like we was
in this little village and we had to go through another little village to build a bridge. It was
evening when you’d come back. They said that a squad of German prisoners was hid in the
building we went through, in the little village we went through. So, when they got back, on our
way back, they called the infantry in. They wanted them to wipe out the squad of Germans. So,
�we went through, I guess they was hid in the buildings. But when we come back, we had to wait
for them to get through fighting before.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now when you went to Stuttgart, could you see damage from
the bombing?
Veteran: Oh yeah. It was pitiful. There were kids on the road, asking for something to eat. They
was sleeping in them old buildings. It was pitiful.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I’d see kids peeking around, begging for something to eat. So, we’d give them a lot of
our rations. See, we had a C-ration.
Interviewer: So that was mostly canned goods and dried things and, yeah.
Veteran: Yeah, you had canned ration and C-ration. Sometimes, you’d get enough…So they
gave us a box for your breakfast and your dinner and your supper. You carried it with you. But
every night they would…As I said, a lot of the times, kids would be coming by, asking, what it
means in Germany, for essence. So, a lot of time we, the soldiers just gave them something.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, now did you also go through villages that were still in good
shape that hadn’t been bombed?
Veteran: No. (00:38:02)
Interviewer: Okay. So, you mostly saw areas that had been hit pretty hard.
Veteran: Mhmm.
Interviewer: Alright. And do you remember seeing any German prisoners of war?
�Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay, and what did they look like?
Veteran: Just ordinary white folks.
Interviewer: Okay, well did you notice if some of them were kind of older or younger? Or
you didn’t—
Veteran: Well, I’d say mostly younger.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I’d say after the war, after Germany surrendered, they sent us to Nancy, France. And we
stayed there about 10 to 15 days. Then they sent us to Le Havre, France. Then they gave us 100
German prisoners to put in a water line.
Interviewer: So, you’re going back, you’re doing more engineering work now?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: But you have German prisoners to work for you as laborers?
Veteran: Mhmm.
Interviewer: Alright. And what impression did you have of them?
Veteran: Oh, just ordinary people to me.
Interviewer: Okay. How did they behave?
Veteran: They just did whatever you told them to do.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: There wasn’t nothing, they didn’t raise no sail or nothing. A lot of them were like us, I
guess: glad it was over.
Interviewer: Yeah. Alright, and then at that point, now do you see more of the French
people now?
Veteran: I said, when we were in Nancy, France. After we left Nancy, France…But to tell you
the truth, I didn’t care for the French more than nobody else.
Interviewer: Okay. But I meant were there a lot of civilians around now?
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Now, were the French doing any better than the Germans? Or, were they
hungry too?
Veteran: No, they had their own country I guess. They seemed to be doing…
Interviewer: Okay? So, there was a difference there?
Veteran: Yeah, they was a different race of people. See, over there, they call French African. In
Nancy, France, they called French African. When they come to the states, they’re called
Moroccan. I could never tell the difference. (00:40:05)
Interviewer: Mhmm. Alright.
Veteran: See, we had some in our outfit, called Moroccan in the States. When you get into
France, they’re called French African.
Interviewer: Well, the French had colonies in Africa, and so, including in North Africa,
including Morocco.
�Veteran: Yeah, well that was in Nancy, France.
Interviewer: Right, but they just think of you like the people from their colonies.
Veteran: I guess so.
Interviewer: Or something like that. And so, it was a little different. Okay. Now then you
said you got assigned Germans to help you work. And then, do you have a sense of how
long you stayed in France?
Veteran: Well now, I’d say I was there…Okay, when did the Japanese surrender?
Interviewer: That’s in August of 1945.
Veteran: Well, when the Japanese surrendered, we was a day from seeing the Pearl Harbor—I
mean, from seeing the Statue of Liberty. We was on our way back to the states.
Interviewer: Okay. So, they loaded you—they took you to Le Havre for a while, they put
you on a boat. So now, summer of ’45, you’re on your way home. Okay, now what happens
when you land in New York?
Veteran: They sent us to Fort McPherson, Georgia.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And we stayed there…They gave us a 30-day leave, and then they say they’d give you
three months jungle training. They was supposed to go—that’s why we left, that was our
assignment. But I say, the Japanese surrendered so we didn’t have to do that.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: We got a 30-day leave and we went back to the camp. Then they sent us down
to…Where I got discharged…What’s the name of the camp? In Georgia…
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: With Fort Benning on one side…
Interviewer: Okay, but it’s somewhere down in that area, but you are in Georgia and…
(00:42:07)
Veteran: Yeah. Alexandria, Louisiana. Fort Beauregard on one side of the town, and a camp on
the other side of the town.
Interviewer: Well at, Fort Benning, I think, is kind of close to the border between Georgia
and Alabama. There’s a river in between. Anyway, okay. But, basically, you get
discharged?
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: You get a leave home, and then you come back, and then you get a discharge?
Veteran: Mhmm.
Interviewer: Okay. So then, you probably are getting out of the Army in 1945. After the—
Veteran: No, after that. I got out in 1946.
Interviewer: Well, the war ends in August of ’45. And you were almost back to the states.
And then, if you’re not spending a lot of time any place after that…
Veteran: Well, I am sure they sent us to…We got back to the states, they sent us to Camp Shank,
New York—No, they sent us to…
�Interviewer: You went to Fort McPherson.
Veteran: Yeah, in Georgia somewhere. And we stayed there. We got a 30-day leave.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: We were back to camp. We hung around camp. I don’t know exactly how long. Then
they sent us down to Louisiana.
Interviewer: Mhmm. And how long did you stay in Louisiana?
Veteran: It was about the whole winter.
Interviewer: Oh okay. That would take it to ’46. So that’s where it wraps up, okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Now, when you were in Louisiana, did you have any work to do? Or were you
just sitting around?
Veteran: Mhmm. After we come back from overseas, after you got back to camp, you just sit
around.
Interviewer: Okay, now when you had that 30-day leave, what did you do?
Veteran: I went home to see my kids.
Interviewer: Mhmm, alright.
Veteran: That was my biggest thing. Most of my mind was on my kids, you know, I just.
Interviewer: Right. And did she know who you were when you got home?
Veteran: Oh yeah. (00:44:01)
�Interviewer: Okay, good.
Veteran: She knew who I was.
Interviewer: Alright. So, after you got your discharge then, what did you do?
Veteran: After I got my discharge, I went up—They didn’t pay me yet, see, when I got my
discharge. They didn’t give me all my money. And then they asked me to stay around Alamo.
They owed me $1040. They asked me to stay around Alamo. They sent me $100 a month. So I
got that. And then they had this thing called the GI Bill. So I signed up to go to school on this GI
Bill until I got all my money. Then I left to come to Benton Harbor, Michigan.
Interviewer: Okay. So, when you say you went to school, were you finishing high school?
Or getting a GED? Or?
Veteran: No, agriculture school.
Interviewer: Okay, agriculture. Okay so vocational school. Okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. And then, how did you wind up going to Benton Harbor?
Veteran: I went there to gather fruit. But after I got there…After I got there, I got working on an
asparagus farm, cutting asparagus. I didn’t like that job, so a couple of days and then I quit.
There was a guy there…He mowed the lawn and he killed chickens for the rest of them. And he
asked me would I like to work with him. 90 cents an hour and he gave me a place to stay. You
know, to live in the house with him. He had a wife and two kids. And I told him I’d rather do
that than cut asparagus, so I left with him. So, I went and lived with him and his wife. Every
�other night, I’d stay home and keep his little girls, him and his wife would go to the show. Next
night, I get the car and go where I want to go. (00:46:15)
Interviewer: Okay. Did you have your daughter with you or was she still with your sister?
Veteran: No. No, I didn’t. They wouldn’t let me have her. That’s the reason I didn’t stay around
home because…
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: See, she was about 6 years old then. You know, she knowed me but you know…It had
been three years and so. And I think two families can’t raise no kid. Like if she asked me to do
something, I say yeah but they may say no, see. And I couldn’t hurt her like that so I just told
them they just take her. Wherever I’m at, if she needs something, let me know. You know I
wouldn’t doubt that they’d have tried to raise the dead for her. And so, I just left, come to Benton
Harbor, Michigan. And then after I got there, then after I started staying with him, then I would
work in flower yard for people. Then one lady asked about trimming trees and things for the
flower yard, and so. I didn’t say anything. After we left, he called me to tea and said if we had
done that job, we could have made money. And I told him well, I know how to trim trees. So, we
went around, bought all pf the equipment. He bought all of the equipment. Then before long, we
started trimming trees all summer. When the snow started falling, then I left and went to Benton
Harbor, Mich—I went to Cleveland, Ohio.
Interviewer: Okay. And what did you do in Cleveland?
Veteran: I run an elevator, a freight elevator at a paper company.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you eventually settle down into a job, a long-term job?
�Veteran: Oh, well…
Interviewer: Or did you just bounce around a lot? (00:48:08)
Veteran: I just bounced because I worked there all winter. Spring come, my mama asked me to
come back down. I had a baby brother. He got himself into debt or something, she…Well. I’ll
say it like this: I am a little odd kid in the family, you know what that is. My mama, bless her
soul, if she wanted something did, I am the fifth child. If she wants something did, she’ll call me.
But when I get it done, she want me to move out. That’s the way I was raised. There was ten of
us kids, but I was just the hardball in the crowd.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you eventually get married again?
Veteran: Oh yeah, I’d say about…I got married. I say, I went back home. I stayed there three
years until I got him out of debt. Then I come to Chicago. Then I got married in Chicago.
Interviewer: Mhmm. And what were you doing in Chicago?
Veteran: I worked at the paper company. I worked there 18 years.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Then I left that, come over here. And I worked at Ottawa Steel 18 years, before I
retired.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, when you look back at the time you spent in the Army, do you
think you learned anything from that or if it did you any good later on?
Veteran: Well, what do you mean by it?
Interviewer: How do you think your time in the Army affected you?
�Veteran: Well, I guess…I guess, I don’t know it affected me any kind of ways. Because I said
most of my mind was in just getting back to my kids, you know, and whatever I had to do, I just
did it you know. So, I don’t think it hurt me nowhere. It taught me to be more ornery or what.
Most of the time, I look back and say… (00:50:34)
Interviewer: Alright. So, you were the same man when you came out—
Veteran: Yeah, it seems.
Interviewer: --then you were when you went in?
Veteran: You know, because I say mostly, I don’t know if you people can understand it or not
but I say you go off leaving your 3-year old child, and she had never spent time with nobody but
you and her mother. And you go off and leave her. You people don’t know how that hurt. So, my
mind was just—I say when I first went with the Army, I did everything I could think of to get a
dishonorable discharge, but after I found out they weren’t going to discharge me. I just did what
I was supposed to do.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, did you learn anything about different kinds of work or
equipment that helped you later? Or, did you already have all the skills you needed?
Veteran: That’s what I was going to say, I didn’t do nothing in the Army I thought that. I mean, I
didn’t do nothing in the Army.
Interviewer: That’s right, you had the machine gun.
Veteran: Except drive a truck. When I went to the Army, I didn’t know what a spark plug was.
But they sent me to schools, teach you all about how to maintain a truck and everything.
Interviewer: Alright.
�Veteran: And the big gun, 155 mm. I didn’t know nothing about them. But I say, after I got out
of the Army, then I, the only thing I worked in was on cars. I went to mechanic school, and
after—Well, I finished mechanic school right there in Letit and Bold. You know they used to
have it out there? I finished mechanic school out there.
Interviewer: Mhmm. (00:52:18)
Veteran: So, I worked part-time, working on cars. Also, I worked at Ottawa Steel, but as a
hobby, I worked on cars too.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, I went to welders school. In other words, everything that Uncle Sam paid me to go
to school for, I did it.
Interviewer: Okay. So, maybe that’s the one thing you got out of the Army?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Uncle Sam paid for some school.
Veteran: I finished barber school, agriculture school, I finished welding school, I finished
mechanic school. Long as Uncle Sam paid me, I did it.
Interviewer: Alright, sounds good.
Veteran: But also, I worked. I said, I worked at Ottawa Steel out there on, you know where that
used to be? Out there on…What used to be out there? You know where Ottawa Steel used to be?
Interviewer: No, I don’t but…
Veteran: Let me see…
�Interviewer: Was it close to Grand Rapids, or…?
Veteran: Yeah, right on the line.
Interviewer: Alright, well.
Veteran: I got to think of that street. It was right where the border of Comstock Park and Grand
Rapids join.
Interviewer: Okay, that would be out on near Alpine Avenue area.
Veteran: Yeah!
Interviewer: Okay, very good.
Veteran: It used to be Ottawa Steel. Half the plant was in Grand Rapids, half the plant was in…
Interviewer: Some part of Comstock Park, okay. (00:54:03)
Veteran: I worked there 60 years before I retired.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, it makes for a very good story, so thanks for taking the time to
share it today. (00:54:13)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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Identifier
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RHC-27_HoltonW2098V
Title
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Holton, Will (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Date
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2017-02-02
Description
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Will Holton was born in Crockett County, Tennessee, on January 19, 1919, and was likely drafted in either late 1942 or early 1943. After Basic Training and advanced training, Holton was then sent to Camp Barkeley, Texas, for trucker training, and was then sent to Louisiana for 155mm artillery training before winding up at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, with the 1010th Engineer Company. Holton was then assigned to the 2nd Platoon, A Company, 1697th Engineer Combat Battalion and was deployed to Europe, supporting the ground troops during the Battle of the Bulge in late 1944-45. He guarded the other engineers while they cleared mines, opened supply routes, and built temporary bridges, continuing this construction work in France after the war. Holton later returned home and was discharged in 1946.
Creator
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Holton, Will Thomas
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
Coverage
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World War II
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/049ef6bce8228d1602cbee889fdfce19.mp4
fd98391ec129e449d020b95bbddf70c7
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e2072733ed3347e9ff1fe44883b48e96.pdf
46215f15e38c675de993351d4144c033
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Bill Gillesse
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Jennifer Hughey
Interview length: 58:31
Smither: We’re talking today with Bill Gillesse of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the interviewer is James
Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project. Bill, start us off with some
background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when were you born?
I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, a little over 90 years ago.
What year was that?
That was in 1926.
Tell me a little bit about your family background. Where were your parents from?
My parents came from the Netherlands in 1923 with four boys in steerage. I was the youngest, I was
born five years later and my sister another two years after that. I was the youngest of the boys, and
those boys were one year apart. They graduated from Grand Rapids High School, Grand Rapids South
High, as I did later. They graduated in ’37, ’38, ’39, and ’40. The oldest one was called up early and went
to fight with the 32nd Division National Guard. The youngest of that bunch in ’40 joined the Navy
immediately and was at Pearl Harbor during the bombing.
Your family has connections.
They started the war and I ended it.
Did you grow up speaking Dutch at home or were you speaking English?
No, we spoke English. My dad had difficulty, but he always insisted, and he tried to speak English. My
mother spoke what’s called Yankee Dutch. That’s a blend of the two. Unless you’re one or the other,
you’re not gonna get it. That’s the way it was.
What did your father do for a living?
My father was a mason basically, he was a bricklayer. When he came to the old country he immediately
worked on, in those days they were building a whole series of—Standard Oil was building—lots of
stations, and he was in that cycle. They continued to build them as different cycles and different
architecture. That’s what he did, and then in WPA he worked also, and he laid manholes, he worked in
the manholes. Later, he had his own contracting business.
[2:36] You mentioned the WPA, that’s a New Deal Program. Was he out of work for a while in the ‘30s
and had to go to the WPA?
Yes, that’s correct. In fact, I remember him going to work for the City of Grand Rapids on occasion to pay
for his taxes, and of course we were all on script, so we would take the sled across St. Andrew’s
Cemetery and number four fire bars and get our milk, prunes, and grapefruit, and so forth.
�So, it was kind of lean times for a while back.
Lean times, especially for laborers like my dad.
But you were able to stay in high school and graduate from high school.
Yes, actually my 18th birthday was in September, but I had enough credits, so I probably chose to go, and
I was sitting in December then of that year.
[3:38] Do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?
How I remember about Pearl Harbor?
How did you hear about it?
My dad, mother, and I were riding to Lansing to visit a brother at that time, and driving back, that’s how
I first heard about it.
So, on a car radio?
Car radio, yeah. In my 1939 Chevy.
Did you know at the time that your brother was at Pearl Harbor, or did you find out about that later?
No, because prior to that we had gotten letters from him from June of that year stating that “from now
on my address will be APO San Francisco, so we didn’t know where he was.
At what point did you find out he had been at Pearl Harbor?
I really don’t know. At that point, I don’t know how soon it was that we found out, I can’t remember
that.
Do you think it might have been kind of a long time?
I guess we kind of assumed where he was, because that’s where all Naval action took place.
That was the main base of the Pacific fleet at that point.
Yeah, and I know he was on a destroyer at that, I did know that, the name of the destroyer and so forth.
Before the war started, did you pay much attention to the news, the war in Europe, that kind of thing.
Definitely did, because I know we’ve got electricity in our house. Mind you, in the city of Grand Rapids,
in the middle of the city, in 1936. And my Dad and I went to Sears Roebuck and got a Silvertone radio,
and that was a highpoint in ’36. And you know what’s going on in Europe. So, my dad especially was very
attentive to the news, he listened to the news. Gabriel Hader and you know, “there’s grave news
tonight,” that’s the news we’d hear.
[5:50] Of course, you still had relatives in the Netherlands at that point, so when the Germans go
there in 1940, you’re aware of those things.
Yeah, my mother had relatives there, my dad—when he came here—he had two sisters here just prior
to that, and their husbands and their families, kids then were our cousins, so forth.
�So, you’re paying attention to those things, then Pearl Harbor happens, and when it happens, did you
think that maybe the war would end before you got into it or did you not think about that?
You know, as a kid, I was hoping it would not end. I wanted to, you know, all our friends were going, our
brothers were going, and we wanted to be patriots, you know.
When did you finish high school?
I got credit for graduating prior to my going to the service, so I didn’t have to go back to get a GED, I had
my diploma so to speak.
When did you enter the service?
Enter?
Yeah.
I went in in December of ’44.
Did you enlist or were you drafted?
I was drafted. Draft Board number 44 called me and I went to Fort—thinking of where I was inducted, I
was in inducted in Chicago.
Chicago, did you go Fort Sheridan?
Yeah, Fort Sheridan, and then we went to Camp Joseph T. Robinson, Arkansas.
[7:43] Where in Arkansas was that? Was there a town nearby?
Yeah, Little Rock was one, not too far, I don’t really remember.
So, Central Arkansas basically?
Yes
How did they get you down there?
How did—train. The troop train.
Do you remember anything about that train ride?
Not much about that train ride, no. Many others though I could tell you. The weather then was spring, I
mean early in the year, and so we had a lot of wet snow, slop, that was our experience there. And our
training was based on going to Germany.
What did the basic training consist of?
That was, like most, gas mask training. Learned to put your gas mask on and so forth. Bayonet training
and marching of course and hiking, discipline, lay your pack out, marching, KP. It was just general, basic
training.
The guys you were training with, were they mostly from the same area or were they from all over the
place?
�They were from all over the place, there were guys from the South and the East, from all over. There
was a pretty good collection there.
[9:16] Were you part of a division at that point that was based there, or was this just training?
No, not at all, we were just in training. That was a 15 to 16-week course. When that was over, then I
went on delay in route and that decided where I was going to go, and that was to Germany, which I was
very happy about that, but when we got to Fort Meade, Maryland, the tide had changed. You
remember, when I went in in December it was the time of the Battle of the Bulge, so things were already
beginning to change then. So, when I got to Maryland they said “woah, no more. We don’t need you
anymore, we need potato peelers over there.” Then we went to camp, we were sent to Camp Howze
Texas to learn how to hate the Japanese and then went to Fort Ord to the replacement depot.
[10:23] Back up here to Camp Howze, Texas. You said you learned how to hate the Japanese. Were
you simply learning about the Japanese, or were you training for fighting in Japan?
Not specifically that, it was a mental thing. It was more or less movies showing the atrocities the
Japanese had done. “This is the kind of soldier you’re going to meet” kind of thing. And more bayonet
training, which I hated. You had to be strong to be good at bayonet.
You were at Camp Howze and then after that the next stop was?
Port of embarkation, Fort Ord, California.
Did you stay at Fort Ord for any amount of time, or did they load you up quickly?
Not for very long. It was a beautiful place to be, so naturally, when you’re army, you don’t stay
anywhere where it’s a beautiful place to be. So, we went from there—fort Ord, that’s Monterey, a
couple beach golf courses. You know, that’s a beautiful area. Then we went from there, from Fort Ord
by train to Frisco, I guess, and left there.
What kind of ship do they put you on?
They put us on, I guess what’s the usual troops. I don’t know if it was a Kaiser build or what it was, but it
was full impact and the thing I remember about that was the roughness of the sea at that point. There
were a lot of sick guys, and I was sick. After a couple of days or so, I guess we got over that. From there
we went past some of the other places that had already been taken, Guam, Ulithi, or some of the other
places, we went right past. Hawaii of course, we didn’t stop at Hawaii for any pleasure trip, and on to
the Philippines from there.
[12:32] Where did you land in the Philippines?
I don’t know where it was. I don’t know the name of the place. I don’t know the name of the place, no. It
was a replacement depot, IRTC they call it. We didn’t do much different there, just waited, waited for
our assignment.
About how long do you think you stayed there?
Probably about a week, yeah, probably a week.
When you crossed the Pacific, did the ship go by itself or did you have escorts?
�We had escorts, I don’t remember the zigzag, but yeah, I always saw a ship on either side at a distance.
Do you think you were in a larger convoy or was this just your ship and a couple of escorts?
I don’t know that we were in a convoy, I don’t remember that.
Alright. So anyway, you get to the Philippines, they land you, you’re basically in a camp and you don’t
really know where you are or what’s going on, and you’re there for about a week, and then what
happens?
Then we got onboard an AP, Assault—I guess AP is assault personnel or something—on one of those
ships and then we went to—I guess—directly to Legazpi and come down the nets and onto the landing
boats and went ashore. That’s where we met our new assignment, our new company.
[14:17] What unit were you joining?
It was the company A of the 158th Regimental Combat Team.
Was the company there by itself, or was the whole regiment there?
The regiment was there but spread out. Our company, and maybe even the battalion, was right in the
Legazpi area. The others were spread out because I remember when we heard rumors that a Company A
or whatever it was made ice cream on Sunday so that we were able to confiscate a weapons carrier and
see if that was true, things like that. So, we were just there. And during that time that’s where were
introduced to all the other guys, you talked to all the guys that had been through a lot and so forth. I
read, I found this on the internet more than anything, I learned more about that outfit on the internet
than I did by talking to the guys. One of the things I learned was that this regimental combat team was
one of MacArthur’s favorites, and I found out that in preparation for the invasion of Japan, this outfit—
our outfit—was two days earlier attack the island of Tadakashima, which was south of Honshu.
[15:59] Well Kyushu was the island that you were gonna land on, that’s the big island, the
southernmost of the big islands so this is gonna be a smaller island off.
South, south of that. I don’t know how many miles, but that one held the radio communications, and so
what I read was that it would be attacked early, before the main attack, I forgot the name of what they
call that and that there would be heavy casualties, that was a really well protected part.
But in the meantime, were you training at all?
We did, we did for that month or so, whatever it was, yeah. Usual training, we did a lot of bayonet work
again and a lot of compass work, and the jungles and things.
Did they have you practice amphibious assaults, or did you just stay on land?
Amphibious assault, yeah.
So, you’d go back out on the boats and get on landing craft and come back in and all that sort of stuff?
Yeah.
When did you actually arrive at Legazpi, when did you get there?
�I don’t know the date, but it was in July.
July ’45 you’re there, getting close to when the invasion was supposed to take place.
The bomb hadn’t gone off yet either.
[17:25] While you’re there, at that point, do you see much of the local population or they kept away
from you?
No, I don’t remember local population per se, individuals yeah. We had girls who would bring us eggs
and so forth. We had our squad tents, it was pretty well organized, and we had a good kitchen crew
which was made up of the Koreans who were left there that the Japanese had used, and they became
our cooks and so on so forth. So, we had pretty good meals there, beside drinking out of a lister bag, but
the food was a lot better, yeah.
Do you remember hearing about the atomic bomb?
Yeah, we heard about the atomic bomb, yeah.
Did you have any sense of what that meant at the time?
No, only that it was spectacular. You know, talk back and forth, huge bomb, it looks like that, sounds
good to me. Then the second one, and we started to have some positive thoughts about what we were
doing. Then when it was finalized, when we heard that the hostility was over, we had completely
different mindset. I don’t know if the discipline was as good as it was before.
What was the reaction in camp when you heard the war was over?
Everybody started planning what they’re gonna do at home, you know? And then, of course, the guys
started counting their points. The high point guys, I forgot what the top one was, 80 or something like
that, and then you know if you were a married man that’s so many points and so many children, years
overseas, and awards, medals, they’re all points for you, see? I don’t think that any guy, any of our guys
left then at that point and I think our whole outfit as it was at that time then was dispatched to Japan.
[20:01] Do you know when you arrived in Japan?
I think it was April 13. April 13 of that.
April 13th is quite a long time after the surrender.
Yeah.
So, you were basically in the Philippines then for a long time after the surrender.
Yeah.
What were you doing in the Philippines all that time?
Just doing routine Army stuff.
Did you get a chance to go off the base and look around at all?
�No, we didn’t. We just stayed right there in camp. Some of the guys did, they went to other—there were
no cities there except just Legazpi itself, but no we just, boring army stuff: waiting, anticipating. We had
a lot of free time.
Over the course of the time then between August of ’45 and April of ’46, then presumably some of the
guys are rotating home now. They’ve got enough points now and they’re leaving.
They did have, yeah. They had enough points
And when they left, did anyone come in to replace them or did the unit just get smaller?
No, nobody replaced them. We would if they wanted us to go on.
Did the Army provide any kind of entertainment for you in the Philippines?
No, most of that was self-entertained. The guys, there were boxing tournaments and things like that.
Did they have movies or other stuff like that?
Yeah, anything they could do to keep us happy. Just a lot of boring time.
Did you have much communication with people back home at that point? You’re writing to your
parents or anyone else?
Yes. We were writing. I don’t remember getting much mail, but yeah, we were writing.
[22:02] So it’s just kind of this long sort of blank period. Not much happening.
Long blank period. Very boring.
But then finally then in April of ’46 you get orders for Japan. How did they get you up to Japan?
We were on kind of an LST, and it was typhoon. We had that typhoon season and it was very, very
rough. It was rough. I don’t know if that was the time, that’s a different story, I had a monkey on the
ship I got from another guy. He would sit on the edge of it, he was sick. But that was on another tour,
that wasn’t on this trip.
Now, if you’re on an LST in a typhoon, did you wonder if the whole thing was gonna break up and
sink?
Oh yeah, yes. This was new. This was new, that was a—it was like you were in a tin can. Yeah.
How long did that go on?
Well, I guess several days. It wasn’t that far, I guess, from the Philippines to Japan really. But yeah,
several days.
But you managed to hit a typhoon. Where did you land in Japan?
We landed, apparently, in Yokohama and then we got on a train right away and we went north to this
area Usnomi, and then we went through town, which had been—you can see it was bombed. Some of
the wood poles and stuff had been scorched and burned, things like that. I remember walking or driving
through town, or village, we didn’t see anybody. We just didn’t see anybody. And we went to an
�encampment, it was a high wood fence, you see a lot of those in this area, and I understand it was a
former Japanese cavalry officers’ training center. It wasn’t large maybe—what would I guess—5 acres
maybe. Something like that. And beyond that was the rice paddy.
[24:44] So this is still fairly flat country that you’re in.
Yeah, and around that of course was a service road, and that’s where we had to do our guard duty, I
don’t know what we’re guarding, but we’re on guard duty, that’s what you do in the Army. The
interesting thing there was, we always had this little book of Japanese American. We were quarantined
there, I remember for a week or something like that, so we weren’t out on the streets of the city. When
I got duty and was walking, there was a mama-san, an older Japanese woman, who was washing some
clothes on her rock or whatever it was. And of course, I don’t know how it was with other GIs, but we
didn’t like to wash our own clothes, so another guy and I, who did that guard post quite often, would
meet with her and we would say, we were trying to say “mama-san, you wash your clothes. Sekken, I
guess, was the name for soap” and she said “no” no she couldn’t do that cause she didn’t have any
Sekken, and I said, “that’s okay, that’s okay we have soap.” So then, of course we got the GI soap out of
the kitchen and so on and so forth and kind of secretly used her to take care of our laundry, and then of
course we would make sure she had candy and cigarettes and all that sort of thing. So, while we didn’t
really talk or communicate or ask any questions, which I regret, I wish that when I was there I had done
a lot more research because one of the questions I would’ve asked would be “finally when your emperor
said he was not your spiritual god, but he was your emperor, how did you perceive that? What did you
do with deity at that point?” That’s kind of my question. Anyway, she was very gracious and she invited
us to dinner and so we went into her home, the shoji panel they have the pit in the floor which, I would
suppose was 3 feet square or something, and inside of that was the charcoal pot and then the blankets
over us and she served us a dinner then. We hit it off well, but not with a lot of people, we knew her
more intimately by what we did with her.
[27:31] Were there many other around that you saw when you were on guard duty? People going by
or just not very many?
No there, see, next to the fence was this little road, and this was the back of her house so to speak, so
no we didn’t see many other people around. Kids came later, after we got on the street, then the kids
would come out, young people, because the chocolate was the big thing, and that always won them
over.
You said going out on the street, did you begin patrolling or something, or what were you doing?
Nope we didn’t.
Just wandering around.
We had no duties there, we’re just waiting to, I guess, to dissipate, I guess. No, we really didn’t have
much of anything to do there. That would be in April, did I say April, no January. We went to Japan in
January 13, I said April?
Yeah.
�Oh, that’s wrong. The colors of the national guard went back in April. So, in that fan of time I can’t
remember we did much of anything. Then when the colors went back, we left that place, back to
Yokohama.
Basically about 3 months there, so you get to know the area a little bit.
A little bit. I can’t remember we did anything protective, we didn’t do any repair, we just played soldier I
guess is about all we did then.
While you were based there did you get to go into Tokyo or anywhere else or were you just stuck out
there?
Not when I was based there, let me think. I did get to Tokyo, yeah. I’m trying to think who I was with and
where I was with. I think I went to Tokyo after I was reassigned to Yokohama, I think that’s right. Then
we took a trip so to speak.
[29:46] And there were trains that went back and forth at that point?
Yeah. When we first were reassigned in Yokohama, our quarters were in what was called the Bunjido
racetrack. It was like MSU stadium, all concrete, that’s where our housing was, was in this place. Cold,
you know. At one time, at one end of it there was a printing company of some. There was also at that
time when we read in the Stars and Stripes, you begin to read what ships are coming in to pick up guys
and take them home. It’s there that I saw that my brother’s ship, my brother who was bombed at Pearl
Harbor, was assigned to a transport, the Blatchford, R.M. Blatchford. So, I some way or another
connected with him and I said “when you come in I wanna know” so when they came in, then I was the
guest in the officers’ quarters. It was such a change for me because the officers all had—in those days—
they had—what did you call the guys that were…
They were stewards. sort
Stewards, yeah. They were black stewards on board ships, and they served the meals and so forth.
That’s the first time I had had milk in a good, long time. So, I was treated pretty royally. There were
nurses on board ship also. I was permitted to be on board for awhile and live like a king.
[31:45] When you transferred to Yokohama, what unit were you joining or what did you become a
part of?
I think it was that construction, 1279 Construction Engineering Battalion if I remember right, and then
from there I think what we did was change quarters out of that place into an area in Yokohama itself,
and that was another flat area made up of tarpaper Quonset, not Quonset but tarpaper huts set in
order, and that’s where our company then stayed and from there our work assignments were
interesting. Mine was. I was driven every day for a long time to a batching plant, a hot mix batching
plant somewhere in North Yokohama and there was a Japanese guy who was in charge of that. He was
in charge of the plant and he was in charge of the men that work there.
Can you explain what a batching plant is?
A batching plant is where you mix and the hot tar. You heat the tar, mix it with the gravel and you mix it
and that’s your black tar pavement. And then the trucks would come, and they would all head off and be
doing paving and batching somewhere. The astounding thing was, I was supposed to unload these—
�these were flat cars, and they had wooden sides on them, and I had a D8 Bulldozer. Now, how you
unload those cars with the blade of a D8 bulldozer is beyond me because you just don’t do it. It’s the
clumsiest operation, I can’t explain it. Instead of having a backhoe to pull the gravel of or something or a
hopper you drop, no it came in on flat cars and that was how primitive it was. Then there was a lot of
handwork that the Japanese guys had to do to get that stuff in the conveyor. That’s kind of the way I
spent my days and he had a garden at home. He had lived in the United States at one time.
[34:26] This is the Japanese manager?
Yes, he was a man much my senior. He might have been 60, maybe 60 or so. He knew what life in the
United States was like and he would bring me fruits and things like that to eat. That was kind of what my
day was for a while. Then maybe prior to that my job was to run what was called a Barber Greene
Ditcher. Barber Greene ditcher, or Barber Greene is made, just like John Deere but it had a conveyor like
this and the soil up there was nice to dig, it was sand and you’d dig trenches, just trenches, and then
somebody came and put a foundation of some sort and they would set huts, quonset huts on those.
Right next to that was, next to that one area was a Russian embassy or
A consulate maybe.
Something in Japan. They did not like it when one of the guys’ bulldozers knocked the tents down. I
remember that. I thought “oh boy, now here we go, third World War” so we did that, and put those huts
together. It was a lot of just plain work, work bees. But the thing that I found in going to Yokohama was
a hotel was there and I wanted to get a haircut and I went out. I was alone, I don’t know what I was
doing that day, but I went into this hotel and got my first haircut for almost nothing. I didn’t have a lot of
interaction with Japanese, and they’re very passive. There was never a controversy or anything like that.
One of the other things we did—what outfit was that now I’m thinking of—in Yokohama it was, there
are a lot of airports around that area and one of the things we had to do was to disarm, supposedly,
these things, machine guns and bomb sites and things like that. I didn’t take the engines off, I never did
anything at that, but they took engines off and you lined them all up in a big row and then the Signal
Corps, somebody came in and then they dynamited those engines, they just blew everything apart. And
we would lay the machine guns on the railroad tracks like this and have a bulldozer run over and bend
them. And he would take the planes with a quick way crane and pick them all up and get all that stuff on
the pile and would take a barrel of gasoline and pour it all over that aluminum and then light it, so all
that aluminum was charred, whatever. I thought that was a horrible waste, terrible waste. But anyway,
those are some of the thigs we did. One of the problems was getting into there with our dozers that one
day. I think our dozer blade, the finished blade, was probably 16-foot, maybe 14, very wide. Well, you
know, you go down a narrow Japanese street, and make a corner with a semi—caught the corner of a
house, you know. What do you do? So, people’s homes were damaged sometimes just getting your
equipment. There was only one airport that I remember, one or two that we worked on like that. Some
of the other things we did was, already then there was a begin to exchange of goods, and sometimes
we’d have to take a big oil tank or something because some Japanese guy businessman needed a tank or
whatever. We’d deliver a tank or something like that. So, we did a lot of variety of things.
[39:14] When you went in into Tokyo, what was there to see or do there?
�In Tokyo we went and saw the palace and all that sort of thing and the gardens and the things around
there, the streets of Tokyo. Of course, in those days, all the women had the kimonos, not like today and
so forth. It was just mainly scenery observing regulars there.
Was there still a downtown area that was still in reasonably good shape?
Yeah, there was a downtown area, but I don’t remember going to any specific ones there. I did in
Yokohama cause I spent more time there. Then of course there was the camera shops and so forth, and
one of the hospitals was there. That was undamaged in Yokohama.
Did you see a lot of cleaning up activity going on, people rebuilding?
You know, it’s amazing how much cleaning up was being done and had been done. Some of this stuff, if
they needed some equipment for moving heavy stuff then our outfit could do that, but it was really
amazing how quickly things got picked up and put aside and the streets opened up and cleaned and
swept. It was my experience, you see, was more one of experience a little bit of a different culture and
travel, you know, cross the country back and forth and so forth. And there’s an advantage of being the
tail-ender. My brother was the front-ender and I was the tail-ender and I was glad for that of course in
the end. But it also qualified me for some better benefits and so forth, just having been in a short time.
[41:33] You’re mentioning travel, did you travel around much within Japan? You went from Yokohama
to Tokyo; did you go anyplace else?
Not a lot but once in a while we would go to Atami, A-T-A-M-I, it was on the coast. It was situated where
it would get the hot water from Fujiyama, I think, or from the higher elevations there. We would often
rent a place for a weekend, maybe two nights. We’d spend that time there in the pools and so forth, it’s
a beautiful spot, overlook the ocean. But I didn’t go to the other side of the island to the Navy base or
anything like that. Some of the guys I knew from school would come down, one guy that I went to high
school from the 82nd airborne, I think he was at Hokkaido or something, so we’d have time together.
Did you ever see anything of General MacArthur or see where he was based?
Actually see him, I did not, but I saw the guards. The interesting thing was that the various guards was
nice to see the changing of the guards and so forth because there were different countries, and one of
the things I was most impressed with of course, the Indian Gurkhas. They had their machetes or swords
down their backs and so forth. No, but I did experience saluting his car when we were in the southern
part of Yokohama. Eichelberger’s headquarters was just beyond the racetrack, the Bunjido race track I
was telling you about, they always had to pass our place, so we had plenty of times when the star was
on the front of the car “star on the car!”
[43:43] Did you have to salute Eichelberger’s car or just MacArthur’s?
All of them. If anything came by.
Did they have a little flag on the car or a sign on the window or something?
There was a, I think on the front of the plate, there were stars on the front of the plate. I don’t
remember the flag exactly, but maybe.
But anyway, it was something a marker telling you that if that went by you were supposed to salute it.
�Oh yeah, and when you were right there on the street, you’re right there on the street you see them
coming.
Another side of the occupation of Japan, or one of the things that shows up in the books and so forth
is that apparently there was a lot of prostitution and issues like that. Was that around or were you
aware of that?
Well, I imagine individuals yeah. But really, I didn’t—we knew it was going on, we knew that guys were
doing what guys do. As far as it being flagrant, girls on the streets not really, I don’t think I saw that.
No particular establishments or anything like that.
Well, if there were, I didn’t know where they were.
That’s probably a healthy thing.
Yeah. The other thing was great in Yokohama, first cavalry they had a great baseball team, and so we
had spent a lot of time at baseball games in Yokohama. Very competitive, some of those games.
[45:34] Did they ever play Japanese players or was it all Americans against each other?
They were all American teams at that time. I keep thinking about going through town, and then, of
course, you know the rear of the streetcars were all energized by the cables up above and the guys and
then the guys for a little mischief got up and pulled the cart down. Poor Japanese guy, what could he do
against all the GIs, mischief, kids, you know, kid stuff.
How long did you spend in Yokohama do you think?
That was until the time I came home. So that would be from April to November. It was quite a ride.
Think about the time that you spent in Japan, are there other memories or impressions that stand out
that you haven’t brought into the story yet?
Yeah, no I-Has he left out anything?
Offscreen voice: He had a houseboy involved.
[46:45] You had a houseboy at some point?
Well, yes, I did. That was great. After we got our barracks in Yokohama, then our big containers, you
know you threw your GI stuff, your junk and your slop in, kids would come up here, stick their heads in
there, get whatever food they could get. I took a liking to this one little guy. I was 18 and he was 18, but
he was about that high. Taksa. His name was Taksa Shannara. I’d like to meet him again. He then
became our house boy and he would, we were in squad tents I don’t know how many maybe a dozen
guys in the barracks, and he would make our beds, he would shine our shoes, and he’d keep everything
tidy. Then of course you know we paid him and then he got all the benefits of food and all the rest. But
he also became kind of a brother you might say because he would learn to tease. He’d learn to tease. I
would make some remark about Tojo or Yamashita or something, that they were bad guys, you know,
and then he would say “no, no they were not, they were good guys” you know, stuff like that. But
�overhearing conversations, GI conversation is always “when are we gonna go home?” When GIs gripe,
you know everything is alright, they’re alive. He would hear us say “how many points till we go home?
We wanna go home.” I remember him saying “where do you come from?” I always say, I didn’t say
Grand Rapids, Michigan, I made it easy for him I said Chicago. “Oh, you gangster, you gangster.” Or of
course you always heard the story of Babe Ruth but Taksa Shannara caught on and pretty soon he would
tease, he would stand on my footlocker and he would say “aha” he would sing, he would say “No goal”
in his laugh, he wanted me to chase him you see, so that was our game. Then I said to him, it was the
day I was to leave, I said “Taksa, I think I wanna take you home” I said “I’m gonna take you by the
pants,” I said, “and I’m gonna stick you in my barracks bag and take you home.” “No no no” he said
“mamasan pissed off.” I laughed. Life in Japan, so I imagined there were a lot of little things that
happened along the way that we had fun with. The Japanese people, what little interchange we had
with them, was always positive. Downtown you’d have people, beggars. There was a lady, I don’t know
if she had a physical handicap, she would sing, I think she was partially blind or something, she would
sing a song. She would sing (sings in Japanese) we heard that so often, it was something like that. I don’t
know what it means, so forgive me any Japanese person. But she was begging for food, she would stand
in the hot sun and sing that song.
[50:47] Eventually though, did you have enough points to go home or did a whole bunch of you get to
go at once or what happened?
I don’t—I think it was just a matter of the end. I didn’t have enough points over two years, one year
overseas. I imagine it was a matter of another unit just going home. I don’t know what any of the other
guys did.
But a lot of people wound up, at the end of the war, staying in less that two full years.
Well, that is true. One of the guys in our outfit, he was from West Virginia, he told me something about
his lifestyle when he was home and it was not very high living. It was even difficult for shoes. So, he did
say to me “this is a good place for me, I have clothing, I have shoes, I have this.” His memories were
something about not a good living at home and I think some of those guys did stay rather than go home
to work in the coal mines and so forth. But not many of our outfit that I remember stayed.
When it’s time for you to go home, how do they get you back? How do you get home from Japan?
How did I get home? I got onboard ship in Yokohama and we went to Seattle, the port in Seattle. I think
that’s Fort Lewis if I remember right, Fort Lewis, Washington? I have to say it was the happiest day of my
life I think, going home, USA. It was a beautiful time of the year; it was just like Michigan and football
season was on. It almost made you think “gosh if the army was always like this every day, eating like
this, being fed like this, maybe I’d stay” but no, it was time to go home, happy day.
[53:02] Once you got home, what did you do next?
After I got home? After I got home, I think I had the opportunity for the GI Bill, but I didn’t take
advantage of that in any way. I think I intended to just find a job and I worked for my dad for a little
while in concrete. Didn’t like that of course. At the same time, I had applied at Consumer’s Energy,
Consumer’s Power Company at the time, Grand Rapids Police and Fire, both, they were separate at least
at that time. So I applied there, did the civil service exam thing and they all came at the same time, I
could’ve gone to any one and I chose the power company. I worked at Consumer’s Energy for six years
�as a groundman and later as a lineman, and then after that I considered going to the concrete business,
at least we thought that’s what it was at the time and then with my dad, I went back to work with my
dad in the concrete business. Then a little after that, I poured concrete walls. I bought a set of wall forms
and I poured concrete walls for a good long while, most of my years. Then after that, I don’t know how
old I was then, I did some inspection work for Bill Holmier in Muskegon Soils and Structures. When they
were building some of the Haworth buildings in Holland, I did some of the soil testing and concrete
testing and some inspections for placing of concrete, things like that. I did that for a while. Then as years
went by, I think our church was going to build a new church, so I did the clerk of the works business on
that and just kind of faded out of the picture.
[55:46] Look back on the time that you spent in the service, what do you think you learned from that,
or how did that affect you?
I thought it was an experience I would never have, I would do over any day; because after all, I didn’t get
shot at and I didn’t have to kill anybody. I know what the army is like. I think the mistake I made was I
didn’t take advantage of more communication with the people of Japan and maybe even the Philippines
although I wasn’t there that long. I think I would have done more research trying to interview more
people there. Travel more maybe.
And when you got back to the States, had you learned things from being in the service that helped
you in your jobs or otherwise?
What did the service teach me? It taught me what it was like and it taught me about war, the effects of
war, what happens to guys when they go through these things. I think you learn; you always learn more
than you know, more than you can put your finger on. You learn how to get along with people, you learn
how to size people up, you know who to stay away from and so forth. I think it’s a great learning
experience. I think from the standpoint of discipline it’s a good thing. I think—from the standpoint of
discipline—all young people should go through it, I do. I don’t have a negative feeling toward—I do say
this when my children and grandchildren, I say to my grandchildren who lean towards the military that
you get your college education first, and then if you want to be an officer or whatever comes after that
okay, but you get that first. You don’t want to be on the bottom of the ladder, not that it’s great up on
top either, I know that.
Thanks for a good story. Thank you very much for taking the time to share with us today.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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RHC-27_GillesseW2112V
Title
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Gillesse, William (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-21
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Gillesse was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1926. He remembered hearing about the attack on Pearl Harbor over the car radio during a family road trip to the state capital. Gillesse was drafted in December of 1944 and sent to Fort Sheridan, Illinois, and then Camp Joseph T. Robinson, Arkansas, for Basic Training. After training for war in Europe, he was redirected to Camp Howze, Texas, for mental conditioning and adjustment training necessary to fight the Japanese in the Pacific. Gillesse was then assigned to A Company of the 158th Regimental Combat Team. When the Japanese surrendered and the war was over, Gillesse remained in the Philippines before joining the occupational forces in Japan in April of 1946 with the 1279th Engineer Battalion back in Yokohama. In November of 1946, Gillesse was shipped back to the United States and was discharged at Fort Lewis, Washington, before traveling back to Grand Rapids where he went to work for Consumers Energy Company.
Creator
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Gillesse, William
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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eng
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World War II
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/807ce423d2999c74197e98f227fa3737.mp4
332bf6925c17d1a9a8d41265a7756748
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4ba42b79756cffc78bc98fd9b6c0f4b.pdf
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Text
Grand Valley State University
Grand Valley State University Veterans History project
Interviewee’s name: Gerald Garner
Length of Interview: (00:30:21)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Madison Vander Lugt
Interviewer: We’re talking today with Gerry Garner of Bridgman, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, Gerry, start us off with some background on yourself. And to begin with,
where and when were you born?”
We just talked about that, West Branch, Michigan
Interviewer: “Oh, but we weren’t on tape. Now we’re on tape.”
Oh, now we got to get it on tape. Yeah, West Branch, Michigan.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what year”
That was 1945. May 25th was…
Interviewer: “No, when were you born?”
When was I born? May 25th of 1927
Interviewer: “Twenty-seven, yes. As opposed to forty-five, okay. And what was your family
doing for a living at that time?”
*(00:00:47)*
Dad was a jeweler and a watch repairman; mother tested eyes. Well, they had an aunt, her
mother’s sister, who’d go along with them. She lost her husband. Their dad, Marcellus Graves,
had a jewelry store. Sold watches, fitted and repaired watches and he taught a lot of that to his
kids. In fact, he taught my dad while dad was still working on the farm north of Vassar. This is
all in Vassar, Michigan that he learned how to repair watches. And so he worked for 2 years with
his dad farming. He said he didn’t want to be a farmer. So they got a loan of money from him
�and all went up to West Branch and bought out a business that Cassius Graves, mother’s uncle,
had been running. And they had that store there till they passed away.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you managed to keep the store during the ’30s and the
Depression?”
*(00:01:53)*
Wasn’t easy. Jewelry wasn’t a good thing to be into then. And we were just handed Northern
Power Company, start giving us electricity for the little fire, electric plants just outside of town.
And it was hardly enough power to run all the lights on a Saturday night, let alone do anything
else. And finally, it got bought out by Consumers Power which had a bigger grid and they
needed somewhere place to show their electrical equipment; stoves, refrigerators, wash
machines. Didn’t have dryers, they had wash machines, they had things like that. So, he rented
them half the store and then agreed to collect half their light bills for them and that got people
coming into the store. Plus they had this service man’s desk there and dad had, during the ‘teens,
had been infatuated with cars. So I think he got a different car about every year when you can
buy them for about four or five hundred dollars. And he’d run a taxi service because people
would come in on the train, getting there by car on the roads that they had in those days wasn’t
very good. But these salesmen would come in and need local transportation so he and a couple
other fellows rented out their services as a cab driver. So he did quite a bit of that in the early
years and in the process...well actually, he had one friend that was a mail deliverer who got sick
and he’d run his mail route for him for a while. So he learned a lot where the farmers were and
this was invaluable when he was working for the power company because they didn’t have a
radio then to call in and say who’s out now. And in those days if you had lightning anywhere you
had outages. And the fellow would go to a farmer had a phone, which they did some of them
have phones, and he’d call in: Well, who’s out now? and Dad would say Oh, this group of
farmers are out. and they knew right away where the automatic switches were so he was a big
asset to them. So he lived, that was middle thirties somewhere when he started that, it was
certainly the depression time. When he died in ‘57 they tried...well I got involved because
mother and dad said this eye testing business, being an optometrist is a good deal. So I really
didn’t ever have any other thoughts of what I was going to be doing. So when I got out of service
I immediately go to the closest school we had for optometry was in Chicago. It was that Northern
Optic, Northern Illinois School of Optometry and they said, we can’t take you; we usually handle
sixty-five students a year coming in and we got four hundred and some coming in with a G.I. Bill
coming behind them. He says you could take this basic schooling in the Freshman year is just
science classes, so take that locally. So I went down to Bay City and into the community college
there and there’s where I got my first year of schooling with a lot of physics classes and a lot of
labs in the afternoon which interfered with my playing basketball.
�*(00:05:21)*
Interviewer: “Alright, that’s getting really far ahead of the story so let’s kind of rotate back
here. We talked about how your family kind of got through the ‘30s and basically, your
mother had a job and your father…”
It took both of them to run the store.
Interviewer: “And then he ran the store and then did all these other things along the side
to find ways to kind of get by.”
*nods* To get by.
Interviewer: “Alright, now when Pearl Harbor happens, you’re still pretty young, fourteen
or whatever.”
Yeah, I remember their first news coming in over their radio about that. And that was pretty
awesome that, in fact, we suspected FDR had been helping England right along with land lease
stuff and we were pretty much isolationists over here. We thought that was all somewhere else.
We often wondered if they actually had an inkling that this raid was going to happen and let it
happen just to get us stirred up so we’d get into the fight.
Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s an off-camera conversation, research that one, but anyway so it
happens...did you assume at the time that the war would be over before you would be old
enough to be in it or did you not think about that?”
You know, I didn’t think that far ahead, didn’t know where this atomic experimenting was going
on. I had a cousin that was fourteen years older than I that had gone into the Army and he’d
spend a lot of time in the Philippines. And he got jungle rot on his feet and was in the hospital
when his outfit moved and was ready to invade Okinawa and so he kind of missed an event that
took out about half the guys in his group. When he got there, they were already established and
they were trying to get the Japs out of their holes in the ground on the northern part of the island.
*(00:07:26)*
Interviewer: “Alright, we’re going to go back to you. So basically, Pearl Harbor happens
and, I mean, it’s something of a shock to the system at that point. And then did life change
in your community once the war started or did things stay pretty much the same?”
�I would say so. We had a local oil business. We had oil we found underneath our town and in the
area, we had our own refinery. My brother was working as a gauger for the Simmer Oil
Company. So that was a deferred kind of thing and many people work in the oil business one
way or the other. Many of them drove clear to Flint which was a hundred miles every day with a
carload to work in one of the plants down there. Of course, they stopped making cars for about
two years from ‘42 to ‘44. Dad was on the rationing board so he had to decide who can have how
much, how many gallons of gas and really pass around to people that extra and helped out. It
wasn’t too much of a problem getting the gas but the schools couldn’t use buses for out of town
sports stuff and we had to borrow theirs to drive us. Tires were pretty new. They had had this ‘40
Chevy engine rebuilt before they got through because stuff didn’t last in those days like they do
now. I had a big victory garden two different years that was...everybody who had anywhere to
raise stuff would have a garden of some kind. Yeah, I would say the whole community to run a
total war on two parts of the world was a total effort.
*(00:09:20)*
Interviewer: “Alright, now as the war goes on and you get older, there’s the prospect now
that you could get drafted once you turn eighteen in ‘45. So how did you deal with the
prospect of service? You talked about this off-camera, but now we’re doing it on.”
I guess I didn’t think about not going in. I didn’t have other than my eyesight needing glasses
which prevented me from volunteering. I’d already worked a couple months with the navy to get
some kind of schooling.
Interviewer: “Can you explain that? What it means, you worked with the navy to get
schooling?”
Yeah, while Dad and his brother-in-law were in the wholesale business, finding out what kind of
goods were sellable, I went into the navy recruiting place and I talked to him then. And I think I
mist have had about three visits with him in the process of passing the written test for the radar
technician training. And then finding out that I couldn’t volunteer and had to wait until the 25th
of May when I signed up for the draft. I don’t know if you can sign up before you’re eighteen or
not cause that’s when I was eighteen, it was the 25th of May in ‘45. And the fighting in Europe
was done and it wasn’t couple months later that we dropped the bombs on Japan and that was
done.
*(00:10:59)*
Interviewer: “Okay, now why did you pick the navy?”
�Well, living in trenches and stuff didn’t appeal to me. At least they had good food and a place to
eat even if the ship now got knocked out underneath you then that’s where the bad part starts.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then initially you were interested in radar and being a
technician?”
Not particularly, it was the only schooling. I was interested in some kind of schooling that I was
in. My son...I don’t know if I can divert to another member of the family…
Interviewer: “Yup!”
*(00:11:33)*
...My oldest son was born in ‘51 so he becomes eighteen sometime in the ends of ‘68. And
Vietnam was going on and Vietnam was not a popular subject, in fact, some of the young fellows
were thinking about escaping to Canada to avoid it. And my brother and I had quite a
conversation talking him out of that and then I said: You go get some schooling at one of the
services and by the time you get the schooling done, the Vietnam issue will be settled. And he
wanted to be an optometrist and fill in for when I quit. They had for three years he could be an
optician. He was one that runs the lab and fills the prescriptions for the optometrist or whoever
tested the eyes. So he went out to Aurora...he, first of all, sneaked out and got married to his
girlfriend and then took her with him to Aurora, Colorado where he spent two or three months
learning the business. Then he spent the rest of his three years in Fort Benning, fitting glasses.
Interviewer: “Alright, so we kind of go back up to you. So you’ve kind of decided, okay,
you’re interested in the navy and essentially what’s happening here is you try to enlist
when you were seventeen but they didn’t let you because of your eyesight?”
No. No, I didn’t say I did anything until after I was eighteen. I wasn’t really going to go ahead of
time.
Interviewer: “Alright, but you were talking to them before you were eighteen?”
The way it worked out, by the time I was ready, I was up to eighteen then on the 25th. And that’s
the end of high school so I got my chance to graduate even went and played a final tennis
tournament down in Kalamazoo. My buddy and I, we were tennis players.
Interviewer: “Ok, so now, end of May, you’ve signed up and now where do you go for your
basic training?”
�*(00:13:41)*
Well, we went first to boot camp in Great Lakes.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was that like?”
Well, it was...I was trying to describe it as just a hodgepodge of different things to keep us busy.
It took a while to get to 126 of us and we’re all going to do the same thing. And they were put
over in Camp Downey which is over on the West side of the railroad tracks cause Great Lakes is
a big place. But we did an awful lot of drilling and we did a lot of manual alarms with the rifles. I
think I got with the food I was getting and the exercise I was getting, I never got tougher or
stronger than I was at that time. We had firefighting, we had learning flag signals, we learned
Morse code, we went down on the lakefront and a couple different times and shot the aircraft,
30’s and 50’s, firefighting on a ship; we never did go on a rifle range. So I guess that was what
we were filled, it was abbreviated from a normal boot camp cause we were going on to schooling
then.
Interviewer: “Okay, how did you already have your schooling picked out?”
Where I was going to go?
Interviewer: “What your schooling was going to be.”
The schooling was just radar technician training.
Interviewer: “Okay, how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the military? Going
off being at camp”
I didn’t have any trouble with that.
Interviewer: “Alright, and about how long did the boot camp last?’
*(00:15:33)*
When did we go into Chicago? That had to be September or October, I think, something like
that. But I was starting the primary school in Chicago.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so at primary school, so where were you then? Was that the high
school in Chicago?”
�Yeah, that was a high school that wasn’t being used as a school anymore. The navy had the use
of it. So we had the barracks set right up in the gym. We had bunks that were three bunks high.
Living on the top one was not any fun. It’s a long ways to the floor if you walk in your sleep. I
remember Wednesday nights were off, we could leave the base. So we’d go down to Halsted
Street and even in those days all of the stores had screens, metal screens, over the windows to
prevent breaking in, We went to a malt shop there and that’s when I learned about banana malts.
So we had very often got a vanilla malt with a banana ground up into it and when the Japan quit
there was quite a celebration downtown, I guess we didn’t observe directly, but we saw pictures
of the crowds on the streets and the what all was going to celebrate that we finally got the stupid
war over with.
Interviewer: “Alright, now, what did your training there actually consist of? What were
you learning while you were there?”
*(00:17:16)*
Well, the basics of radar and electrical systems involved in creating the signals and interpreting
them when they come back. So this was pretty much about generating electrical circuits,
batteries, and the power source for radar. We were just going on to the next schooling to get a
better application when they decided they didn’t need to train us in that anymore. And we were
really concerned about what was going to happen to us because we figured we’d be on a ship’s
company on some base somewhere. Maybe way out in Midway or something like that, we’d be
stuck for a while, didn’t work that way.
Interviewer: “Ok, so where did you go next?”
Well, we went back to Great Lakes before they decided what to do with us. And I can’t quite
remember how long we were there. We did get on a troop train that got us out to San Francisco
and then I told you about going from Treasure [...] Island, a year in [Hawaii?], and then down to
Alameda and that’s where a lot of ships were stationed. We had an aircraft carrier sitting beside
us. You get the tide working out there, you maybe go up in the morning going up like that on the
walkway and then next time you come back you’re going like that. And I saw, while I was there,
I saw one of the four-engine flying boats that flew from San Fransisco out to Honolulu and
watched one take off. You never thought with all the load they had on that the bay wasn’t big
enough for them to take off, terrible racket. That first time they said they were sending people
back to their place of origin which would be Great Lakes or Maine. But they finally decided to,
they were so overwhelmed that Great Lakes with dischargees that they would let us get
discharged out there and then they’d give us five cents a mile for us to get home. Before that
happened, my buddy that I was with had an uncle out there that had some kind of a mining
company. He also had a nice looking daughter and so we were going to get him to give us letters
�saying we had promise of employment out there so we could stay out there and get discharged.
Well, that never reached a conclusion so they let us go up to Stockton and get discharged. They
tried to talk us into upping but we couldn’t quite see that.
*(00:20:02)*
Interviewer: “But, what were they offering in terms if you re-upped; what would they give
you?”
Oh boy, I can’t remember that. I can’t remember that. Wasn’t in the picture so we didn’t listen
very hard.
Interviewer: “Alright so how long did you actually spend in Alameda?”
In Alameda?
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
It’d be less than two months.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of job did you have there?”
Well, they assigned me to one of the departments on the ship. Let me think now; I did some
painting down in some of the holes. I guess that must have been before I was assigned in the
carpenter’s shop. But we used to have a priming paint that was very good to stop rust. And I
remember going way down in the bow, or in the crap quarters, and we had these little power
units pumping air down and our air up and even then when you’d come out you were drunk
cause the smell of paint was not very good for you. I guess I did some of that at first until I got
assigned to this carpenter’s shop and I was just inventory and the tools I had and I had some stiff
to smear on that made a coating to keep them from rusting.
*(00:21:28)*
Interviewer: “Ok, so you’re on the Seaplane tender and, that’s the type of ship you were
on?”
That’s what they called it. I never knew much more about what it did.
Interviewer: “Ok, can you describe the ship physically?”
�Yeah, it was a lot like a destroyer but quite a bit smaller. I don’t even remember what armament
it had on it cause I wasn’t involved in that. We had heard from fellows coming back from the
Pacific which maybe shouldn’t be talked about. But they said they realized how much delay they
would have of getting out because of what they had to do with the ship to decommission it or
preserve it. And they started throwing things, things disappeared overboard so they didn’t have
to do a lot of what we were doing. So out there somewhere on the bottom of the Pacific before
you get into the bay at San Francisco there’s a lot of war materials setting
Interviewer: “Something that someone did not want to inventory.”
Didn’t want to spend the time it was going to take to do it. They wanted to go home.
Interviewer: “Now were they decommissioning the ship you were on or was this just
regular maintenance that you were doing?”
No, I assume that was going in storage. I don’t think there was any need for it to go out anymore.
So I assume it was mothballed as they say.
*(00:22:48)*
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you get much time to sort of go off base in these places? In
San Francisco or anywhere else?”
Out there, yeah, we had a small boat that we could take as a taxi and could run across to
downtown San Francisco so I remember going over there quite a few times. As I say we had a, a
friend and I, this people that we said couldn’t get to work for us. We were up in… uh, what’s the
name of the college town on the north side of the bay? Anyway, it was a very nice residential
area that they lived in. It used to be a great place to walk around cause I wasn’t too used to the
smell of night-looming jasmine for example is quite overwhelming at night. And the San
Francisco Bay with everything being hills around it, the lights on the bay and everything is just a
beautiful situation. You can see the lights on the San Francisco from across where we were.
Berkley is the name I wanted to say was up that place and it was just a beautiful sight. In fact, I
took my wife out there and we spent two weeks later on exploring San Francisco and northern
California.
*(00:24:23)*
Interviewer: “Alright, so you said the job thing didn’t happen?”
�The job thing?...No, never got that needed because, I said, we’re overwhelmed back at Great
Lakes and you were picking up discharge wherever you want so Stockton happened to be the
place we went to.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then this takes you back to when you basically decided to go for
optometry school. You had gone to the place in Illinois and they had told you go off and
take some lower-level classes first…”
I could take that right in Bay City.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you then go back to that school or did you go somewhere
else?”
Oh, yeah. Yeah, even before I had my grades even to me in Bay City they were ready to start the
summer term over there.
Interviewer: “Okay”
And I was quite sure my grades were quite suitable. I never had any trouble with grades in
school.
Interviewer: “Alright, so then you went on to be an optometrist then?”
Right. I spent forty years back in West Branch. I met after, John and I both went took the state
board when we got back in late 49 and passed the board. So he was going to be with his dad in
Standish and I was going to take over my mother’s part of the business. We always had rooms
built in the building but behind or above the store because it took both mother and dad all the
time to take care of the store. People in those days didn’t plan on eye tests unless you had a
problem. So invariably if they come in and say they need their eyes checked, there was
something wrong. And most of them because they just needed some kind of glasses. And people,
when they got glasses, didn’t get them from mother; that wasn’t something women did. They got
them from the dad. Mother worked for the dad so she had that against her. Now they had two
sons and they went there in 1910 and had their first son in 1912 and another in 1915 and I didn’t
come along until 27. So those two boys were like uncles to me more than other. And the oldest
one, he took county normal. Do you know what county normal is? In high school, there was a
class for the seniors. I think it was just seniors. They’re preparing them for teaching in their oneroom schools and every township had to have and that was mostly the source for girls. I don’t
know how many fellows took it but he went on to Central Michigan then and got his degree for
teaching and math and music. And when he went to be in high school for his first job, I went
with him for first grade, So that’s how much difference it was between my oldest brother and
�myself. And I wasn’t going to that school. I was really spoiled. But when I went, I loved it. I
loved it. I loved to have the kids to play with.
*(00:27:30)*
Interviewer: “Alright, okay now…”
I didn’t mention something we did in shop.
Interviewer: “Okay.”
It was to make scale size model planes, painted in black, of German planes, French planes,
British planes, Japan planes, and our own planes. So that was supposed to be, somewhere they
used them for plane spotting, for training.
Interviewer: “Right, for training recognition of aircrafts. So let’s…”
Yeah, we had a booth on top of the community building and somebody was in it all the time
watching for planes because in those days somebody had the idea that Germans were capable of
flying over top of the world to northern Canada, where there isn’t anybody, and set up a
refueling station so they could come down through the upper part of the country, bombing. And
the straights were there, Saginaw, Bay City, Flint, Pontiac, Detroit, Chicago. All kinds of
industrial power in the middle of the country that we needed to protect. And we were there trying
to watch for airplanes that weren’t supposed to be there.
*(00:28:40)*
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you actually do, did you have air-raid wardens or blackouts
or things like that or did you not do that in a place like West Branch?”
No, I don’t remember having that type of thing.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now, you have kind of an, almost a snafu kind of experience in the
service, in the sense that you went around to all of these places and didn’t spend too much
time doing too much. But, what do you think you took out of that or did you learn anything
from the process of being in the military?”
Oh, got me out of a small town. Fed me, housed me, gave me a chance to go and explore
Chicago quite a bit with the USO and generally learned that Chicago is a tough place to live in.
�Of course, I spent years in optometry school there. Met a few girls, learned to dance at the
Aragon and Trianon and went and first time I saw professional basketball players was there. And
a fellow that was from Minnesota that was one of the bigger guys there, Mike...if only I could get
his name for it, I was overwhelmed by the size of those guys. But I did see some of the world in
that respect that I don’t see in my little town of West Branch.
Interviewer: “Alright, well thanks for interesting stories. So thanks very much for coming
in and sharing today.”
Okay.
*(00:30:21)*
End of Interview.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_GarnerG2169V
Title
A name given to the resource
Garner, Gerald (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-14
Description
An account of the resource
Gerald Garner was born in West Branch, Michigan, on May 25, 1927. During the Great Depression, his family's jewelry shop was diversified as his father agreed to share the space with an energy company so he could pay the rent. Garner signed onto a radar technician program with the Navy in the closing months of the war and attedned Boot Camp at Great Lakes Naval Station. He was in Alameda, California, when the war ended and was quickly offered an early-out of the service due to the flood of dischargees returning home. He then went on to attend optometry school in Chicago on the GI Bill.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Garner, Gerald Alfred
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
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World War II
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Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: William Dudas
Interview Length: (34.32)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Part 2
Interviewer: So, when you were scouting out there, how long would you stay out?
We got, we’d hide in the daytime.
Interviewer: Yep.
And we have to watch for the flares light the whole area up just like daytime. We make sure we
can get down fast enough.
Interviewer: Okay but how many nights would you be out?
About four nights.
Interviewer: Okay.
Four nights, six days, yeah. We used to have it all marked.
Interviewer: And then how long a break would you get before you had to go back?
No, we were on duty right away, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay but you said sometimes you got to go back to the rear and recover.
(1.07)
Yeah, right to get our clothes repaired, get a- a new pair of pants, or something like that,
underwear, and that whole thing, and socks, boy.
Interviewer: Alright, now after you moved out of that area what did you do next?
Well we, they up in line, we make sure that our holes, we could be deep enough cause if they
broke tanks through on us, we could get down to the bottom of the holes.
�Interviewer: Right, I guess I was asking after you finish, you said you were about a month
near the Hurtgen Forest.
Yeah, right.
Interviewer: And then what did your unit do next?
We- we headed for one of the areas that had big name- big name, starts with a ‘W’ and,
[unintelligible] and we captured the town, the 23rd really captured the town, they then they called
us in and then they sent sixteen of us a, on a trip to get the Germans out of the town of Schmitt,
over twelve/ fifteen miles. And because they were gonna blow up the dams and they'd have
flooded our, all the areas that the British were in and part of our outfit. The 9th would have been
there, so we went through the 9th Division, the 38th and they took sixteen of us there and we went
along the shore of Roer River.
(2.35)
Interviewer: Right it's R-O-E-R.
Yeah, right.
Interviewer: Roer River, yep.
Yeah, right and we're, it took us two days, fifteen miles is one day's work, you know but a couple
days. Had to be careful that they didn't set a trap for us. No Germans, no Germans at all. It's like
somebody forgot to tell them, you know but we got the, right to the dam and the- the guy with
the radio called the artillery man there, they had word for us to come back. The Germans are
attacking on December 16.
Interviewer: Okay so…
I'll never forget the date.
Interviewer: Alright.
�I had to turn and that- had to turn and come back and a little bit of daylight too.
Interviewer: Okay and how long did it take to get back?
About two days.
Interviewer: Okay.
Because you get killed if- if they see out there, they get the mortars after you or a rifleman and,
or- or these guys they called their extra marksman, expert marksman.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay and so now you get back, now do you go back to where the 9th
Division is and then move from there?
(3.44)
Yeah, we yeah, we- we went back exactly where we know the spot where we were at.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Because we had a, at- at night we'd move out and before it got daylight, we dig a hole to stay in
that hole.
Interviewer: Right- right, but then how long did it take you to get back to the 2nd Division?
About three days?
That, we're all 2nd Divisions.
Interviewer: Yeah well, I know but you said you- you were sent off as a detachment.
Oh okay…
Interviewer: And you moved through…
Sixteen guys.
Interviewer: Yeah, those sixteen guys.
Yeah.
Interviewer: So, but then you eventually rejoin your regular company.
�Yes- yes, in fact and- and we join the- the 29th, the 23rd- the 23rd regiment.
Interviewer: Right.
E Company and we had to stop there because they had something for us to do there.
Interviewer: Right.
And so, they kept sending us back further and further and that's when we got all new clothes.
Interviewer: Okay.
(4.38)
That and not only that but the- the weather was starting to change. Snow was there and we had to
get rid of the warm or warm weather clothes that we had and put the overcoats on and that whole
thing and got right back up in- in there and then famous Falaise Gap, we pushed up right up
against that and then made that right-hand turn to go to Brest.
Interviewer: Okay, now- now you've backed us up a little bit, that was back in Normandy.
Yeah.
Interviewer: But we were talking about…
Well Normandy is all of France, the beach area.
Interviewer: Nope but that's back, but in your story, we had gotten you up along the
Belgian-German border.
Yes.
Interviewer: And started the Battle of the Bulge.
That's right.
Interviewer: So that's what I kind of wanted to get to next.
Okay well I- well I’m working my way there.
Interviewer: Alight.
�I had to add a few funny things that happened in there.
Interviewer: Okay, okay.
Well we got in there and the Germans had the tanks all lined up and along the roads Air Corps
was doing the best job they could do was make ‘em spread out and everything. Dropping bombs
on ‘em and a few of us they dropped on. And the guys with bazookas we had to make sure that
they had fresh batteries, that's how you fire a pistol.
(5.50)
Interviewer: Okay.
Not many people know.
Interviewer: I didn't know that.
Okay, but anyway, our guys, we had four or five guys in the town of Krinkelt, that was the first
town and we had ‘em stationed there so they could shoot that bazooka and take off one track and
try to move a tank with one track, all he does is make a circle, make a circle and use all his
animation up. We had three of them, we got three of them on our street right there and- and the
funny thing about it there were anti-tank guys that had bazookas not the guns, the fifty-nine
millimeter.
Interviewer: Yeah.
…cannons there because the first time the Germans that see that flash and that, they knew that,
where it was and- and we lost a lot of anti-tank guys.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Right.
Interviewer: Because the anti-tank…
I was trained in that too.
�(6.48)
Interviewer: The anti-tank and that's just a gun that's no protection for the crew.
Yeah right, right, right so we- we got the Trevières is back- back behind us about six- seven
miles on there Hill 192 is over here and Saint-Lô. We had too many troops in there and they
were digging a lotta holes that’s all you could see.
Interviewer: Okay but that's again, that's back in Normandy.
Yes.
Interviewer: Now- now when you were knocking off the tracks of the tank so that was in
Krinkelt
, that was Belgium…
Interviewer: That- that- that's Battle of the Bulge.
Battle of the Bulge started yeah.
Interviewer: Right, okay and what else do you remember about the Battle of the Bulge?
We're six days in this one house and the Germans had burned off the roof with the shells and we
were down below. And- and because big boulders, the houses were made big boulders like that,
the tanks would shoot through the windows with their one-on-one somebody we're gonna make
inner circle around down on the street. That's as far as they got, but that all stopped all of a
sudden, all they were doing, noise you’d hear you know the big cannons and that stuff back out
of the way, our cannons, 105 big stuff. And we finally got a break there, but it was cold, and we
lost- we lost Lieutenant Welsh he was, he thought he could get out the door and get over to the
next house but didn't make it. And- and we lost a corporal there too.
(8.24)
Interviewer: Okay now did you have to pull out of the house and retreat?
�No- no we- we were there with nothing that was it, they said, “you stay here.”
Interviewer: Okay.
Krinkelt.
Interviewer: Yep.
Two houses.
Interviewer: Okay.
Two towns, too many guys.
Interviewer: Yeah, I guess the, in- in the history books it says we did withdraw from those
villages eventually.
Oh yeah we withdrew with ‘em and we went back to the town where the Germans were and all
our letters and Christmas present boxes from our parents and all that stuff was spread out all
over. They opened up everything, in fact I lost the watch, my mother bought me a new watch and
sent it, so a German probably today has still got a watch there, I got there.
Interviewer: Okay.
But it- it they- they pulled us back and- and there was, they had, they figured out some way to
keep enough artillery bangin’ back for ‘em so the Germans would fall back and then we could
get out of the houses.
Interviewer: Right.
(9.31)
It didn't work that way though, we had to fight our way back…
Interviewer: Okay.
By using the- the guns we'd had there and we were getting low on ammunition because when a
guy get killed some, we take these- take his gun and his ammunition right on there and- and we
�went back and lucky me, like Paris, they sent me back to another town and I got another new set
of clothes on there. And then we got back up on the front line and then we started chasing
Germans to the Rhine River.
Interviewer: Right.
Right, and that's when the Navy came up with rubber boats and- and I don't know how they ever
got that far without losing you know a lot of guys or something, but they didn't. They had it
figure out pretty good and at midnight we jumped in the boats and went across the river and we
got over there- there were no Germans there, that was the funniest feeling you know.
(10.36)
Interviewer: Now is this when you're crossing the Rhine River?
Rhine River, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay,
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: So that's gonna be about in March now.
Well it was still cold.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Still really cold, yeah. I- I get my, sometimes I’m- I'm a month ahead.
Interviewer: Yeah.
You know, in my thinking on there.
Interviewer: The Rhine crossing started in March.
Yeah in March yeah…
Interviewer: In February were…
Well we were there before March.
�Interviewer: Yeah.
The 2nd Division our objective was Czechoslovakia.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And when you look at the maps in my book you can see the line.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And we went through all those towns.
Interviewer: But sort of thing where the Battle of the Bulge is December into January.
Yeah right, right.
Interviewer: And in January then you're attacking eastward toward Germany and toward
the Rhine
Yes.
Interviewer: You probably get to the Rhine February maybe, so you get to one side of it.
Yeah, we waited- we waited about two weeks there, digging the holes deeper and then we’d
scout we go out there and look at the Rhine you know and we'd see, try to see a mile, it was
about a mile and a quarter they said right where we were at.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And- and- and- and we had a fit because they came up there with rockets. Ten rockets in a blast.
Interviewer: Right.
(11.49)
Zip- zip- zip one right after another, ten then they go back and load it up. We didn't want the
Germans to try to find ‘em you know and here we were there.
Interviewer: So, you couldn't shoot at them.
The deep holes.
�Interviewer: So, you wouldn't shoot at them because you didn't want them to hit you.
That's right, they're right- right.
Interviewer: Okay.
We didn't want them to expose where we were.
Interviewer: Okay.
But there, a lot of houses along the river, lot a- lot a house, but we weren't allowed to do that, we
didn't storm the houses. There were troops behind us that was their job to get that, we couldn't
touch any of the prisoners at these small camps that we get the German- German captured guys
you know and that's, we weren't allowed to touch any of those guys, you couldn't shake hands or
anything we're just yell at them and because we didn't know what diseases they had.
Interviewer: Right.
And- and people don't realize that you know that whole thing, hooray they're here, you know.
Forget it stay there don't get near me.
Interviewer: So, are you passing different kinds of camps as you go forward?
Yes, yup- yup.
(12.58)
Interviewer: So, there were prisoner of war camps?
Prisoner of war camps.
Interviewer: Okay.
And they were used on the working things, building pill boxes and building roads and that type
of thing.
Interviewer: Well and the Germans also used a lot of slave laborers from other European
countries.
�Right.
Interviewer: So, and then there were the concentration camps where they had Jews and…
Concentration camps, Polish people.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah.
Okay they're putting their hands through the barbed wire and trying to touch us, and we were…
Interviewer: Don't- don't touch your microphone by the way.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
They're trying to touch us in there and- and- and they warned us every day, we got tired of it you
know. We weren't gonna touch them anyway but they're so glad, they're crying and yelling and
screaming you know, hooray, they're here.
Interviewer: Yeah, now were you able to give them food or do they tell you not too?
I don't know, we don't know because we were ahead.
Interviewer: Okay.
Our job was Czechoslovakia.
Interviewer: Alright now as you were, so when you cross the Rhine did you cross the Rhine
in boats, in rubber boats or?
Rubber boats, yeah that the Navy had ‘em there.
(14.02)
Interviewer: Alright.
Yeah and- and we came out nobody shooting at us, like something happened, shut the war off or
something there, a lot of noise.
Interviewer: And then…
�A lot of flares.
Interviewer: And now you're marching across Germany.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Now were you still doing your scouting missions?
Yes, we were cause…
Interviewer: Where you still going up ahead?
And I could have cried when I had to put a- a phosphorus bomb in the cockpit of a Stuka
bomber, I did it, I made it as a- a kid, found my balsa wood and all that.
Interviewer: Right.
And all that as a kid and I had it hang in the ceiling it was- it was probably 18 inches long and
the whole thing, here I had to get into the cockpit and just drop it down in there, all the controls
and it was gone, phosphorous bombs we carried ‘em on our clothes like hand grenades.
Interviewer: Right, right.
(14.55)
The hand grenades wouldn't have helped at all, this we burned ‘em.
Interviewer: So, yeah so you- so you found a German dive bomber just sitting out there?
Well it, yeah, they had, this was a repair base.
Interviewer: Okay.
Or something like that.
Interviewer: Okay.
And- and we had orders, “burn ‘em”. Yeah, and- and how did they know they were there? When
they’d fly over, who cares up there, they don't worry about it but on the ground, we got to, had to
burn them and we did the same thing to their barracks, we burned them.
�Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Now did you meet much opposition, were the Germans…
Not- not too much.
Interviewer: Okay.
Not too much, there's numerous towns where the guys had to get tough with youngsters that
maybe were 12, 14, 15 years old, bad news.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And- and we put ‘em down the floor, face down on the floor, stay right there and if they even
rolled over, we lay one on ‘em you know. You take your bayonet on and stick it on the end of
your gun, that stopped a lot of things yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
We learned those things from- from basic training, yeah.
(16.03)
Interviewer: Okay what were these kids doing, how were they behaving that made you
have to deal with them?
Well they were surprised we were there.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah, this is, it was just getting near the center of well maybe 50 miles into Germany.
Interviewer: Right.
And then all of a sudden General Patton, George Patton sent the 3rd Armored Division over to the
2nd Division, 38th Infantry and I was one of the lucky ones and you'll see the pictures of my tank
with the guys hanging on to it.
�Interviewer: So, now you got to ride on a tank?
Got to ride on a tank, yep.
Interviewer: Alright and is that, and did you stay with the tanks and go all the way to
Czechoslovakia that way?
To the border.
Interviewer: Okay.
To the boarder.
Interviewer: Alright.
And then you got off and started to walk again. We were in friendly company there and the- the
Czechs would tell us if there were any Germans in there, so we moved along pretty fast, in fact
sometimes we had the trucks carry us 6x6 as they called.
(17.06)
Interviewer: Yep.
They put probably 20 guys in there who were shoulder-to-shoulder inside that thing, maybe three
in the seat with the driver, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay and where were you when the war ended in Europe?
In Pilsen.
Interviewer: Okay.
My dad's parents’ hometown.
Interviewer: Okay.
Can you believe that I had it in- in Paris there and Dudas is spelled Dudar there,
Interviewer: So…
D-U-D-A-R and- and that's because R’s and S’s when you write them, look the same.
�Interviewer: Okay so your father's family came from Czechoslovakia.
From Pilsen.
Interviewer: And then they moved to France and then they moved to the U.S.?
No, the- the ones in Paris moved right to the United States.
Interviewer: Right.
World Fair's 1889, World's Fairs.
Interviewer: World’s Fair okay sure.
That started it for us in 1933.
(18.01)
Interviewer: Okay.
And I read- I rode the skyrocket- the skyrocket in Chicago.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Way up above the air- the area there I don't want to slip back a little bit here.
Interviewer: Now that’s- that's your figuring it out yeah…
Alright but if Grandma and Grandpa from Paris, they came from Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. My
father's parents.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah never close to them at all, they lived in Cicero and they were all members of the group and
Cicero Illinois, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay, alright now when you got to Pilsen did you ever see any of the
Russians?
Yes, I saw ‘em trying, comin’ on the bridge and they got to there where we had it written on in
English, “stop or you're gonna be shot.” That's the way we put it and they're probably some guys
�did get there because they were on guard probably a hundred- football field away, anyway from
that tank that was in the middle of the bridge and…
(19.04)
Interviewer: Okay so you saw the Russians in the distance?
4th Division finally took it over and that.
Interviewer: Okay alright, now so how long did you stay in Czechoslovakia?
I was there about two months.
Interviewer: Okay.
They had me and- and my, I'd say the whole Company G was there and in my book you see
pictures of the guys, I took pictures of them because I was the first one let out, I had five
campaigns in, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay so your company was still there?
Yeah.
Interviewer: When you got this, when you were told you could go home.
Go home, yeah.
Interviewer: You had enough points, okay.
That was a long trip, I have a couple weeks.
Interviewer: Okay, tell me, I want to ask some other things. Did you see many German
prisoners of war? Captured Germans, did you see them?
No because we went by those people.
Interviewer: Okay.
We saw thousands of those German guys walking, told go the back behind us.
(20.05)
�Interviewer: Okay.
They were prisoners really, but we were on tanks.
Interviewer: Right.
They’d go off to the side of the road, even walk in the gullies on the side of the road because we
had the big tanks and you'll see the pictures of the tanks.
Interviewer: And- and what did they look like to you?
Torn, worn out.
Interviewer: And were they about your age or older or younger?
Well there were some areas that we- we caught some of those guys when we were in Belgium,
younger 14- 15- 16 years old.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay so they have kids.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you see older men too?
Not- not too many.
Interviewer: Okay.
Maybe around the- the- the buildup fortresses.
Interviewer: Right.
That they had in different places, but don't let the churches fool you, that was a motto we had,
don't let the churches fool you with these snipers were up in the tower up there. And we’d get the
tank up there and take the top right off the tower, yeah. You hate that you know.
(21.12)
�Interviewer: Yeah.
And I'm kind of a religious person and I always think I'm home when I see a church, you know
so.
Interviewer: Okay and then how did the people in Czechoslovakia treat you?
They loved us, we have a- we have our own business office in Pilsen today and I’ll give ya a
story with Pilsen.
Interviewer: Okay.
I wanted to go to Pilsen because I heard about the office there and all the fun they were having
there and I got a letter from a congressman and he says, “you can't go over this year, they're
having a few problems over there.” And- and I've never been able to figure out anything and I
was gonna, I wanted to go to Pilsen and see if I could find any Dudas’s there and go back to
Paris that way, get a plane there to come back to the States there. I had dreams of this, go doing
that.
Interviewer: Okay.
But it didn't work out that way and- and- and I have a lady that takes care of sending troops or us
back over there and that and we're pretty good friends, and she has the agency that does that over
there. She had a fit when that congressman wrote me- wrote me the letter said, “don't go this year
anyway.”
Interviewer: Okay what year was that?
(22.38)
What year was that? I'll have to see about 2001 maybe in there, 2002.
Interviewer: Okay.
That’s just were in ‘15 now.
�Interviewer: Yeah, I don't know what was going on then, I mean other than maybe after we
went into Iraq or Afghanistan.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Or something, they were worried about something but…
Yeah right- right- right.
Interviewer: Anyway, okay.
Yeah, my and we were really into that war there, the 23rd is all gone now if they've all been sent
home. The 9th was in Afghanistan and they're still there but they're currently gonna come home
too, we have different names now.
Interviewer: Right now, are there other things when you think about the time that you
spent in Europe during the war, are there other memories that kind of stand out for you?
(23.29)
Well, being in the front, everyone’s different, everything was different, and the- and the most
different thing was getting to Brest because Patton hadn't pulled up with his big group up there
yet, to spread out from Marseille, and spread out along there. That big wave there and then we
were from the beach and there had to make contact with them. And we still had glider troops and
paratroopers, you know. Either all shot up or something and- and the pair, or the people in
France would tell us about where they're at there, they’d pull ‘em in there and try to get ‘em well
and the whole thing.
Interviewer: Cause they were scattered all over Brittany, the area you’re going through.
All- all over Brittany, the Loire that's the good word yeah.
Interviewer: Because that had still been behind German lines for a long time before you got
there.
�Yep, long time, yeah.
(24.25)
Interviewer: Okay so you're rescuing those guys…
Yeah right, well we heard about ‘em and- and maybe the lieutenants and the sergeants were
going and look at ‘em, would, not us. We had one thing to do is look and see if Germans were
right in front of us.
Interviewer: Right- right.
And when we didn't see ‘em, we were worried about it yeah, right. And- and- and I and on the
way to Brest I lost- I lost that part of my being in the service, you know going back to the
hospital and then going back to Paris, which was great. And it- it Harold has died a year ago and,
in my notes, and that whole thing I got his, I have his obituary in the- in the- in the book in there.
Interviewer: Okay and then one of the men in your squad wrote a book?
No, he didn't write it, his son.
Interviewer: His son wrote it, okay that's it.
His son and- and he has a feeling just totally, how he felt, how his brother felt and his- his
brothers, the, Harold's really a sharp guy, he was number one scholar. He was smarter than I was,
he was a year older, but we had fun there bluffing the Germans, you know.
(25.44)
Interviewer: Okay.
And they probably did it to us too, we didn't know, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah alright but you must've been pretty good at it because you're still alive.
Yes yeah.
Interviewer: Alright.
�Yeah, they, up there they're watching me, you know. I got a grandma up there watching me too.
Interviewer: Something. Alright now you got your orders to tell you it's time to go home.
Right.
Interviewer: Then what happens?
Well they came in and- and there are only two of us that have five campaigns and that was 90
points.
Interviewer: Right.
Right there.
Interviewer: Right, and so then what happens?
And then they put us on a train, and we spent a week in Nürnberg, where Hitler started this
whole thing here and I have a- a nut, and a bolt, and a washer, brass, that big. I took off the Eagle
that some smart guy in the tank corps blew it right off with a gun, you know, but I- I was again II got a wrench from one of tankers and I went up there and I took it off and I have it, it's on
display in the Granville museum.
(26.51)
Interviewer: Very good.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright.
And the kids all wanted to handle it, I give it to, and I was teaching classes and- and- and second
graders they can't wait to put your uniform on, the jacket and the whole thing and we do that so
they get a feeling.
Interviewer: Sure.
Of what we're doing.
�Interviewer: Alright.
And some parents had a fit, but that's all the kids talk about when they go home.
Interviewer: Well yeah, okay so you spend a week in Nürnberg and then do they put- put
you on another train then?
Another train, yeah.
Interviewer: Where do you go?
We waited until more soldiers came.
Interviewer: Right.
…up there and we were right in the center where Hitler started the whole war/works, yeah.
Interviewer: Right, and then where did you ship out from?
From Antwerp.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah.
Interviewer: And what kind of ship were you on?
Same one, Île de France, going the other way, yeah. I was so surprised about it but boy I was sick
all the way, not sick going over but coming back, yeah.
Interviewer: Was the weather worse?
Well not really, but I had lost so much weight. I was- I was I'll have to say 225, I was 155.
(27.58)
Interviewer: Okay.
The eating you know wasn't all up to standards in- in that part of it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�And I have 26 medicines I take every day, I take 13 in- in the morning, and 13 at night, my
daughter has it in little boxes every day as mentioned there.
Interviewer: Alright.
Yeah.
Interviewer: So, and then where did you land in the U.S.?
Orangeburg, I'm quite sure it's Orangeburg, yeah because they gave me a day in Paris or in New
York City.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah you, they had it all set for you.
Interviewer: Okay.
USO?
Interviewer: Yeah.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay so you go into Camp, probably Camp Shanks or someplace like that.
That- that yeah that’s- that's a familiar name.
Interviewer: Right.
Well we came back fast, so, we came back fast then I went to- to Shreveport, Louisiana.
Interviewer: Okay.
And they said, “Dudas, you stay here.” And I- I- I- I had called my parents down where I’m at
and I'm still alive you know, and they said that, “you have to talk to a couple of psychiatrists, we
told him your trauma.” Was true, I wake up at night screaming, yelling my guys, you know.
(29.20)
Interviewer: Okay.
�Right and- and so they put me in at one end of the first day there, walked into the mess hall, and
they waved me down, there was a man sitting there and a- a lady soldier taking notes and the last
thing he said to me, “Dudas, if you ever stopped working, you're gonna die,” and I get down to
the other end there's another psychiatrist, he said the same thing, “Dudas, if you stop working
you're gonna die, you work 24 hours a day.” And- and- and- and I was scared you know the
whole thing I didn’t know what…
Interviewer: What did they mean by that?
That I keep busy.
Interviewer: Okay.
Keep busy.
Interviewer: So…
And that's- that’s what I did. And give you an example I taught school, drove a school bus, and I
had athletic teams, and I worked for Johnson Park, Kent County.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah.
Interviewer: So, when you…
In the park system.
(30.18)
Interviewer: So how long did you have to stay in Shreveport, was that just a short time or?
A month.
Interviewer: Okay.
�They- they- they gave you small tests and that sort of thing and I had trouble with this ear, that's
the one that about ten days I couldn't hear too well but I wasn't gonna go anywhere, I- I stayed
with my group.
Interviewer: Okay, now when did that happen to you?
That happened on the way to Trevières.
Interviewer: Okay so right at the beginning.
Going to Brest.
Interviewer: Okay to Brest, okay front of the trip here, alright so then once you got back
home again what did you do?
I- I got a big, my dad talked to somebody and they were building GI homes and- and I'm- and
I’m a carpenter.
Interviewer: Okay.
I've been a carpenter ever since my grandfather let me build on the house when I was a little kid.
And a good carpenter.
(31.14)
Interviewer: Okay now how long did you do that?
And I had to finish high school.
Interviewer: Okay.
So, the high school was first right in here because I wanted to go to college.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I want to go to Notre Dame and play football, want to be an architect all because of my
grandma and grandpa.
Interviewer: Right.
�And when the- the athletic director from Notre Dame saw me in the office there he said, “what
happened to you?” When he saw me when I weighed 220 pounds as a combination end on the
football team, that's- that's what I wanted do, play football for that and be with my hero Errol, I
forgot the name while I was there I'll say Errol Brown All-American from Benton Harbor.
Interviewer: Okay so the coach at Notre Dame had seen you before you went over?
Yeah Athletic director yeah- yeah.
Interviewer: Okay so they'd seen you and they thought you'd be a good recruit.
Yeah, and they gave me a shot at that, I wanted to play pro football and go to the Bears.
(32.18)
Interviewer: Alright but now you come back and they look at you.
Yeah.
Interviewer: That's not gonna work.
My mother hardly recognized me.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah.
Interviewer: So, where did…
Six foot and thin.
Interviewer: Yeah, so, where did you go to college?
Western.
Interviewer: Okay.
I went there, my lady friend, she was going there so we went there, and she was in the home ec
department and I was in Destler's art department.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Four years there and I worked for, there, never stopped working, I didn't stop there and- and
Superman and Dr. Weber, the history department, I had to go in there and check out, I was
supposed to learn something in history and he said, “can you cut wood, trim steel, anything like
that?” I said, “I sure can.” He said, “you're gonna work.” And my second week in college I had a
solid job there, yeah. I worked the night shift till 9:00- 10:00 o'clock and I still had to study,
yeah.
(33.23)
Interviewer: And so then when you graduated you went right to your high school job or
the, you went to Grandville then?
Yeah, I came right to Grandville and we sign our contracts a year before we graduated, we were
going right there.
Interviewer: Okay, and how long did you teach in Granville?
35 years.
Interviewer: Alright.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright now when you think back to the time that you spent in the service,
how do you think that affected you? Or what did you take out of it?
Well, the two psychologists said, “you ever stop working you're gonna die,” and it certainly he
was right, and he told the same thing to Harold, and a- a- a guy that you would appreciate, he
was smooth as glass.
Interviewer: Alright now do you think that you learned, yeah, do you think you- you
learned anything from being in the army?
Yes- yes you get a- a- a broader view of the population, yeah.
�(34.19)
Interviewer: Alright.
Right.
Interviewer: Alright well I just like to thank you for coming in and telling your story today.
Right.
Interviewer: Alright, that’ll do it.
I haven't told this in a long time.
Interviewer: Alright.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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RHC-27_DudasW1896V2
Title
A name given to the resource
Dudas, William (2 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-05
Description
An account of the resource
William Dudas was born in Sawyer, MI, just outside of Benton Harbor, in 1924. Dudas enlisted in the Army on July 29, 1943, shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He was selected for scout training and trained at Camp Walters in Texas. Dudas spent six months training in Cardiff, Wales, preparing for the D-Day invasion and landed on Omaha beach a day or two after the first wave, joining his unit on its way to Trevieres, France. Dudas' unit participated in the Battle at Hill 192 and advanced in a rapid push to Brest where he injured his leg during the advance and was sidelined for four weeks before rejoining his unit in Paris. His unit also participated in combat in the Hurtgen Forest, Battle of the Bulge, acrossing the Rhine River, and advancing into Czechoslovakia. After the war, he left the service and attended Western Michigan University to became a high school teacher.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dudas, William L.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
World War II
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8225a4cc0399608f1fd7fe98c8528ae4.mp4
88135c6d1ca4b11d19a6c50df98a3b7e
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9990645011b804105d39bda940d2abe9.pdf
14b8cff48344b1b7ab918a36554dd9c2
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: William Dudas
Interview Length: (44:28)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: We're talking today with Bill Dudas of Jenison, Michigan and the interviewer
is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Now Bill,
can you begin with some background on yourself to begin with, where and when were you
born?
I was born in Sawyer, Michigan outside of Benton Harbor and…
Interviewer: What year?
In 1924.
Interviewer: Okay now did you grow up there?
Yeah, yes until I was 16 and I- I signed up for the, my mother signed the slip for me to get in thein the army when I was 16 and my father had a fit. I remember hollering and hollering about that.
Interviewer: Now the rule at that point was that you had to be seventeen.
Had to be seventeen but it was gettin’ up there on September 10th is my birthdate and it- it
seemed to everything kind of fell into place and then I met my uncle who was in World War I
and he said, “if you do anything, get in the artillery.” So, I did I just used the word artillery.
(1:40)
Interviewer: Okay now let's back up a little bit, while you were living in Sawyer what did
your family do for a living?
I lived with my grandparents.
Interviewer: Okay.
�And my grandfather was an architect and contractor from 1889 to 1933 on the World Affairs.
Came from Paris, France, he came from Paris, France married my grandma and she was from
Paris, France also. And- and that was on, in Sawyer, Michigan on our great Lake Michigan and
there's complications of here because there's years in that on room school I went to and I enjoyed
it very much. And kind of freedom that's what I had there, and I had one sister and two brothers
with my regular family. And my grandma asked if I could come and stay with them and that's
what I did.
(2:51)
Interviewer: Okay and how old were you when you went to live with them?
Four.
Interviewer: Okay was this just because it was…
Some family tension.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay.
There, as you'll see in my history book.
Interviewer: Alright so basically, you're pretty much brought up by your grandmother
then?
Just for three years.
Interviewer: Three years.
And then she passed away.
Interviewer: Okay and then did you go back to your mother at that point?
Yes, I went back to my mother and father, oh yeah.
Interviewer: Alright and then you said you, and now so when did you actually enlist in the
army?
�In July 29th of- of 1943.
Interviewer: Okay.
(3:35)
Lots of things happen and that till they got off to that.
Interviewer: Right, now do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?
Yes, I heard, my father heard about it and he called me, and he called us all there. And- and then
the phone rang, and the newspaper that I delivered paper for said that they're driving extra
papers. That’s what it said on the front “extras!” Chicago, Detroit,” and the News Palladium
from Benton Harbor. St. Joe, the twin sister, didn't have a paper yet.
Interviewer: Okay so you have to go out there and start selling extras or just delivering
them?
Yes, yeah- yeah Sunday night we had the papers and we were taking- taking our route, our paper
route and you're running up and down the street yelling “extra, extra.”
Interviewer: Yeah, the kind of thing we used to see in a lot of old movies...
Yes, you’re right.
Interviewer: With the paper boy running around.
You’re right.
Interviewer: Today people don't know what that is.
Yeah that’s true, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay now then once you, now how did life change at home before you joined
the Army? I mean was there rationing going on or that kind of thing?
(4:49)
�I was an athlete starting from fourth grade, Benton Harbor's noted all over Michigan as an
athletic- athletic plant and I started in the fourth grade, running and jumping, shooting baskets,
and all that kind of stuff. And went right into the junior high and we had programs in basketball,
and some football, and we played football by ourselves and that kind of thing.
Interviewer: Okay.
Then the basketball was Saturday morning stuff, and, in our neighborhood, we had running
meets and all that kind of stuff.
Interviewer: Okay now after Pearl Harbor
After Pearl Harbor…
Interviewer: When you go back to school you at that point, how were things different? How
did things change in your community after Pearl Harbor?
(5:39)
Well the things that happen, they asked for people to join the Army, or Navy, or Air Force,
Marines. And I- I don’t, keep saying the Marines will be next to us all the time you know,
because we were number one division. And it- it had the- the generals and that that they were all
aware of it and then we moved from Texas.
Interviewer: Okay. You're- you're kind of jumping, you're- you’re going ahead a little bit,
let us back up.
Okay.
Interviewer: I'm asking about life before you enter the army, so in 1942 and you're still in
school at that point.
Yeah 1943.
Interviewer: Yeah but before you join.
�Yeah.
Interviewer: What were things like then? What were things like at home in Benton Harbor
after the war starts?
(6:36)
We were patriotic people and as we were in the school the teachers taught, talked to us that way.
And if you narrow it down real quick my fifth and sixth grade teacher had a brother in the
service, in Alaska building the highway. And I was interested in it and she used to read every
letter he wrote back, and then we would write, and then she'd write back to him. And so, the
questions were answering back and forth there. And when I got to be 50 years old, I went
Alaska. And on the, all the way on the road from the start to the finish.
Interviewer: Now okay now did you want to get into the Army as soon as you could?
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay
Yes.
Interviewer: And that's why your mother signs.
My uncle wanted me in as fast he could, yeah.
Interviewer: Right, so you told us, so your mother signed for you.
Yes.
Interviewer: And you asked to go into the artillery.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright now where did you report to?
(7:39)
Detroit.
�Interviewer: Okay and what happened there?
And in Detroit they gave you shots and examined you real close and they were looking for
people that were in good- good body shape, good thing. Could run fast, could jump, and the
whole thing and this is special training at Camp Wolters, Texas.
Interviewer: Okay how did…
That’s where I ended up.
Interviewer: Okay, how did you get to Camp Wolters, Texas?
By train.
Interviewer: And what do you remember…
There’s no planes in those days.
Interviewer: Yeah- yeah, what do you remember about that train ride?
That it was a long boring ride to get to Texas. Mineral Wells, Texas they dropped us off there.
Interviewer: Okay.
Camp Wolters, beautiful camp.
Interviewer: Alright.
And that's when my life changed, when five of the officer- officers and enlisted men were
training us, they were captured by the Japanese in the Philippine Islands. And they escaped, the
whole company did, that, we're talking about a thousand people, you know. And- and we had
five of them that were training us, and we could run faster, jump higher than they could. We
clean ‘em up on their, in the course that we had out there that you had to have instruction on.
(9:02)
Interviewer: Alright, okay now was this your- your basic training?
Basic training.
�Interviewer: Okay.
21 weeks.
Interviewer: Alright and did the guys, did these instructors, did they tell you how they
escaped or what happened to them?
No not really.
Interviewer: Okay.
We- we were so interested in what they were doing for us right there. And- and it kept us alive,
kept me alive, I lost all my friends that were there.
Interviewer: Now we're there when you started training down there did you know what
division you were going to be in?
No.
Interviewer: Okay so this is just basic for everybody.
Yeah basic.
Interviewer: Okay and how much emphasis did they put on discipline?
All- all of it, solid your non comms, sergeants, corporals, and all of that and be sure you salute
all the officers yeah.
Interviewer: Now what happened when you did something wrong?
Oh I never did anything wrong, I went along what they had because they were gonna keep me
alive.
Interviewer: Alright.
Right.
Interviewer: Now did- did some of the other men have more trouble?
�(10:05)
Yes, oh yes, they- they’re the people that had to get up at four o'clock in the morning for KP
service. Anybody goofing around with that whole thing and- and we were kept busy. We had our
own football team, our own softball team, right there on the campgrounds. And so, in order to be
in- in those things you had to behave yourself and mind the rules.
Interviewer: Okay.
When they said you're gonna trot for half a mile, well you trotted that. If you didn't, you were in
trouble yeah.
Interviewer: Alright.
And obstacle courses were big in our time, big. I had a big one at our high school built by the
athletic director who was the ex- army guy and he's too old to get in now, but he said they have
to have this, boy that was the circus for us.
Interviewer: Alright now was this, how long did the basic training last?
21 weeks.
Interviewer: Okay so that's a long…
(11:02)
Back on the train and over to New York, and not too far from we could see the Statue of Liberty,
and then they shipped us off to En- to En, Wales, really.
Interviewer: Now at this point had you been assigned to your unit yet?
No.
Interviewer: So, you still don't know what, who you're gonna be…
Right. More training on the beaches in- in Wales in that area.
�Interviewer: Okay because I guess the official history of the division indicates that they
formed up in the US.
Yes.
Interviewer: And then they went over to England and did more training, but did you join
them when they…
First was Ireland.
Interviewer: Right, yeah okay.
That was one group and we went to Wales.
Interviewer: Right.
Cardiff, Wales.
Interviewer: Okay.
And- and just a great time- a great time. Went British, some British guys were pros at that
because they just got out of Dunkirk.
Interviewer: Alright so…
And I say that nobody knows what I mean by that.
Interviewer: Well we do.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright, but they were, that was back in 1940. When did you arrive in Wales?
(12:07)
In ’44.
Interviewer: Okay and about…
January of ’44.
Interviewer: Alright so the 2nd Division is already in Britain by that time.
�They were, Ireland.
Interviewer: Yeah, they were Ireland, okay so you're coming, you're still just a
replacement. Tell me about the trip across the ocean.
It was- it was a beautiful ship; Île de France and it was capacity. Loaded in there four high in the
bunks down low and every day we'd go up on top for the, in case of emergency, a torpedo might
get at us or something like that. Told us what we had to do and- and the- the rope ladders were
thrown overboard and, but we didn't go down the rope ladders, they just said, “there they are.”
You have to go down there and get off the ship by the rope ladder.
Interviewer: Now was this a converted ocean liner?
Yes.
Interviewer: Passenger ship?
Yes, passenger, a beautiful ship and I'll have to say twenty thousand.
(13.10)
Interviewer: Okay, and did you sail by yourself?
Yes, outrun we could outrun any problem like that, but there was, the Navy was around not too
far from us all the time.
Interviewer: Okay, so you had escorts of some kind.
Yes, oh yeah and we went Scotland first and then we got a train from Scotland and- and guys
went in different directions and I went to Wales.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah, now how long did you spend in Cardiff?
Cardiff? Six months.
�Interviewer: Okay.
Almost to the day.
Interviewer: Now how did the civilians treat the American soldiers?
Great, great the restaurants and that their fish and chips, that kind of thing, yeah. And people
were great- great and they appreciated us and- and I was of course one of the lucky ones that got
to camp way, a long ways from where the Germans were bombing but we could hear it, we could
hear it. At night, every single night the Germans would fly over, we'd fire up, make noise andand the bombs going off. That just conditioned us for what we expected on D-Day.
(14.19)
Interviewer: Right now, what kind of training were you getting by this time?
Infantry.
Interviewer: Okay.
Scouts.
Interviewer: Okay, explain a little bit what is a scout? And what do they do?
Okay, we would leave at night, go across the line back of the enemy, and then during daytime
we'd hide in the fields, and when it got dark again, we started to move around. And we had an
artillery observer with us that told his division, the artillery division what we were looking for;
the mortar groups, the German mortars, and the German artillery, and that's how far sometimes
ten/ fifteen miles behind German lines.
Interviewer: Okay.
And- and we were trained well in- in Camp Wolters, Texas. How to sneak around there, cops and
robbers in the neighborhood, yeah.
(15.14)
�Interviewer: Okay.
Cowboys and Indians.
Interviewer: Alright now when you enlisted you had asked to be in the artillery…
Artillery, right.
Interviewer: But now it sounds like you're training to be in the infantry.
They took us, the guys that could run the fastest, can jump the highest, and on the obstacle
courses, and- and when you want to, you'd have a race on Saturday or Sundays and make five or
ten dollars. A guy would think he was gonna beat me or beat one of us, there in no way.
Interviewer: Okay.
Because I was in great condition when I went in the service because I trained to be a football
player in Benton Harbor.
Interviewer: Okay, so because of your athletic ability they took you out and they made you
a scout?
Yeah, oh yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Alright.
And we would learn all kinds of things in that type of atmosphere, yeah.
(16.10)
Interviewer: Okay now at what point do you get assigned to your unit?
Oh, at D-day.
Interviewer: So, you didn't join the division until D-day?
�No, until D, after D-day and- and- and I, the picture show I came up with the- the one of the
regiments, there's the 9th Regiment and the 23rd Regiment and- and 38th Regiment, that's my
regiment. I'm very proud of it all the way.
Interviewer: Okay, so when did you meet, and then which company did you join?
G Company, 2nd battalion G company.
Interviewer: Alright and so when did you meet those men?
I- I met ‘em on the way to Trevières, it was about 14 [actually 4] miles from the beach.
Interviewer: Okay so…
We were replacement people.
Interviewer: Aha okay, so how did they, so- so basically talk about the, that time, so when
did you leave Cardiff? Was that?
(17.14)
We left it for- for D-Day.
Interviewer: But so, on D-Day?
Not the, oh no.
Interviewer: Or after D-Day or before?
After D-Day, we were- we were in a boat on D-Day.
Interviewer: Okay.
A- a- a big liner, with you know three or four thousand people, guys on there.
Interviewer: Okay was that a liner or was that a…
All well trained people.
Interviewer: Was that a troop transport ship now?
Yeah, yeah.
�Interviewer: Okay, now did it have landing craft to land you with or?
I think they followed us, I, cause all they had to do is come from Southampton. You could see
France in a hurry there, when you got out there on the North Sea.
Interviewer: Alright.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Or the English Channel any way.
A lot of noise because over back behind us coming out of Britain are big battleships firing guns
that can cover many, 20 miles out. And those, the shells were going over the top of us and they
were trying to clean off the beaches. The Germans had prepared all these rigs with railroad ties
and all kinds of tracks in there.
(18.15)
Interviewer: Okay.
And you, we used that to protect us from the machine guns up on top of the hill.
Interviewer: Alright, now as you, so when, on what day did you land on the beach?
On- on D-day that was December 6th/ 7th. December, or June 6th
Interviewer: But June 6 was D-Day, but did you actually land on D-Day?
No, it was 7th or 8th right in there.
Interviewer: Yeah, right, I think…
With so much confusion, I never can get it straightened out. I think in my books you'll be able to
figure it out there.
Interviewer: Okay, now do you remember, did you spend, you know more than one night
on the ship waiting to land or just one?
Yes, yes.
�Interviewer: Yeah, so, you may have landed…
The 8th, I think it’s the 8th when we- we came in there.
Interviewer: Okay and then when it's time for you to land…
Land.
Interviewer: How does that work?
Worked with the rope and the net that they threw overboard, and you climbed down there and
got in the landing craft. And- and of course the landing crafts are famous, in our war and some
were blown right out of the water with maybe 40- 50 guys on it and it was quite a serious thing
and then when it dropped down, out you went, right up to your shoulders in water.
(19.31)
Interviewer: Okay so they drop you out that far?
Yep- yep not that far, sand bars and all that stuff on the ocean.
Interviewer: Okay.
And the water was cold it's all I know. And you were, carried our rifles up on top, I had a sub
Thompson.
Interviewer: So, a submachine gun?
Yeah submachine gun, yeah.
Interviewer: How much did, how much were you carrying? What kinds of things did you
carry with you when you landed?
Blanket and rain[?] and half, your half of a tent cause it take two guys to cover up a foxhole with
a tent.
Interviewer: Right.
Over the top you know.
�Interviewer: Okay and what else did you carry?
A shovel and a bayonet and- and that's a do or die tool.
Interviewer: Now were you bringing rations and food?
Yes, the yeah, the K-rations, the C's were much later in there. And- and- and four or five packs
of that and I didn't smoke, and I didn't drink, so I didn't have to worry about that part of the
whole thing. I had one thing in mind, get ashore and get in the hole.
(20.39)
Interviewer: Okay so when you landed was there any firing or was it quiet?
Oh no, there was so much noise, to this day it's too much noise.
Interviewer: Okay.
I was in the service for 28 months and I think for 20 months there's nothing but that noise, the
big guns and that.
Interviewer: Okay but the Germans weren't shooting at you?
Yes, they were.
Interviewer: There were still Germans shooting at the beach?
Germans right there- right there, we had to get them off the beach.
Interviewer: Okay.
Had to get them off all the way to Trevières, that was 14 miles up there and a- a couple other
small towns in the way.
Interviewer: Right, but I was asking on the actual landing beach itself because you landed
on Omaha Beach.
Omaha.
�Interviewer: And where there still any Germans on Omaha Beach or were they behind
there?
They were behind.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay.
(21.27)
The, we came, once we got to the beach, we could see the- the- the fortresses that they had there,
six to eight foot thick.
Interviewer: Yep.
Then the big guns, all they do is blow big chunks of cement out, yeah. But the soldiers were still
there and a lot of hid out in the trenches, you never knew where anything was until you walked
right up on top of it.
Interviewer: Okay.
And they were prepared for us on there.
Interviewer: Alright.
We used a lot of hand grenades.
Interviewer: Okay.
Throw ‘em over to hill.
Interviewer: So, you're still helping clear out the Germans from that area.
Yeah, you're right and that 14-mile loop across there like this.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay now Trevières is only village that's inland, it's not, it's only a couple of
miles inland.
�Yeah right.
Interviewer: It’s not too far, but so that's where you headed?
Yeah that's where we're, that was our goal.
Interviewer: Okay now did you join your company outside of the town or in it?
Yes, I was all of a sudden, I was in the 23rd Regiment.
Interviewer: Okay.
And we didn't know, when I got up there, I was put in the 38th which I'm very proud of today,
yeah. And officers were well-trained. And- and Sergeant Blackmore, he watched every one of us,
and he'd see anything wrong and he grabbed you right by your gear and pull you down said,
“now what did I tell you?” you know that kind of a guy, and he kept us alive, he kept us alive.
(22.56)
Interviewer: Okay now do you start doing scouting work right away?
Right away.
Interviewer: Okay.
Right away, they- they- they assigned us to that space going up there. And- and our work was
done at night so we could get behind them and- and- and it worked out pretty good and according
to the five guys that trained us in camp, they did some tricks we didn't even know they were
there, they were there. And those are the things that we carried from the- from the basic training
and then the extra training we stay in the six months in Cardiff Wales.
Interviewer: Right.
Yeah Swansea really.
(23.40)
�Interviewer: Now when you, do you remember the first time you went out as a scout? The
first time you did a scouting.
Facin’ Germans?
Interviewer: Yeah
Okay yes, I remember real well.
Interviewer: Okay well what happened?
Yeah, we were told there and- and- and Harold was my buddy, he was always first scout, and he
was 30- 40 feet, a foot ahead of us there and- and I was down, back there and- and we were
spread out 30- 40 foot. Cause one bullet could knock off five or six guys, you know one- one
machine gun is so rapid, coming right at you. And- and we had to be careful we didn't get into
where- where they’d rap the ground, they get the ground and then raised up there and another
gun would take over after that. They had all kinds of drills and we had to solve those before they
bring up the rest of the group.
Interviewer: Right.
In there.
(24.40)
Interviewer: Okay, now what kind of country were you in?
In with s. the famous hedgerows.
Interviewer: Okay.
That was started 2,000 years before that by the Romans, so we got the history of that what we
had, and they were from four-foot-high to twelve foot high. And that they when they plowed
their fields, they’d take the big stones out, throw them on the side on their property lines and
everywhere was a hedgerow and the Germans had ‘em all spotted, probably had ‘em by number.
�And so, they’d, all they had to do is look at their map and- and it's almost wipe us out there, you
know they're that quick, and our job was to get to those guys that were with the mortars and the
artillery.
Interviewer: Right, okay so tell me about that first mission out there, I was asking your
first time out there as a scout, you said you were spread out, Harold was your first scout.
Yeah, right Harold.
Interviewer: Now what actually happened then?
(25.35)
We went out like that and all of a sudden, they stop us, there are snipers there in the woods.
They’re in the trees and you got to get them out of there.
Interviewer: Okay.
And so that's what we worked on, the cops and robbers thing we did as kids, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah, so…
And they were in the tree and I have a rifle, Italian rifle, sniper's rifle. And how it got there, I
don't know but it had a telescope on it and the whole thing, and I found it there.
Interviewer: Okay.
Because we dropped the guy out of the tree and I got his rifle, and here I am carrying a sub
Thompson and that rifle, I didn’t have any bullets for the rifle. Anyway, I did mail it home when
we did stop about 10 days more in there, but we were able to put the things we found, the
revolvers and- and the rifles and little things from the soldiers that we overrun.
Interviewer: Right, okay now how would you kind of make your way forward if you're
trying to go out on one of these missions and you’re in the hedgerow country how did you
go about doing that?
�(26.46)
We had a tank, the tanks got up there and- and they tried to go up the banks, some of them were
too high and they go tumbling down the other side, but they're all guns firing, all the time we’re
there. So, we're behind tanks.
Interviewer: Well I was asking you about when you're a scout.
Yeah right.
Interviewer: You didn’t have any tanks with you when you're a scout right?
Right, but they like to have us out ahead of them.
Interviewer: Right.
And- and- and they, some of the new officers, in my books you'll find that a number of officers
that we lost. There were people, they said, “cause he's an officer he had to be up there in front.”
No, you gotta be more than that, you have to be, really exercise that program, yeah. And we
cried like the rest of the guys when we lose an officer or one of our sergeants and that the whole
thing. We were sick about it, it made us mad that's what it is, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay now I'm basically I'm just trying to sort of picture a little bit sort of
what you're doing, or in the time that you're in Normandy, I mean you start at Trevières.
Now did they capture that town after you got there, or had they captured it already?
They- they had captured it before we got there.
(28.02)
Interviewer: Okay, alright.
So, we were 3rd Battalion.
Interviewer: Right.
The 23rd and the 9th rough outfit.
�Interviewer: Okay.
They thought they were rough okay, but they- they- they got there and- and we didn't care who,
if there were any Germans in the town because the people who live there would tell us where
they where at. And the Germans knew that so they got out of the towns as fast as they could.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah, and you build up a friendship with those people and I have a couple letters from the high
school it was in Trevières.
Interviewer: Okay.
And the things like that bring back other great stories, you know.
Interviewer: Okay so when you're moving during the day would you ride on tanks and go
forward?
Not really.
Interviewer: Okay.
Not really, no, tanks never happened to us ‘till we cross the Rhine River.
Interviewer: Alright because I was trying to sort of sort out what was happening in
Normandy back at the beginning.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Now the division moves inland towards Saint-Lô and…
Saint-Lô and Trevières.
Interviewer: Yeah, after Trevières.
In a line there.
Interviewer: Well and then Saint-Lô is farther inland.
Yes right.
�(29.11)
Interviewer: Okay now the division fought a battle at a place called Hill 192.
That's- that’s what I was gonna just tell ya…
Interviewer: Okay.
The 9th and the 23rd went in there and beat ‘em up pretty good but they lost- they lost it. And they
pulled up my outfit in there, the 38th and our luck, the Germans scampered out of there. They
dropped back into Saint-Lô, because they were, we had to get that hill because they were using it
for their artillery Scouts. And in that hole works and they had built big towers on hill 90- 192 in
there and I happen to be one of lucky guys to get there first, you know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah.
Interviewer: So, after you got there, what happened next?
We reformed- reformed into our own groups.
Interviewer: Right.
And we picked up the artillery guys and we down, go out and locate the 81 mortars, they’re the
bad news to us and the 88 artillery and they were doubly bad news and- and find them right away
and they’d radio back and- and the radios in that time was not a cell phone, it was a pack on the
back of a guy that carried a pistol, that's the only defense that guy had. But the- the officers that
were there from the artillery were giving ‘em all the places that- that we thought or maybe they
were, they were clever about moving around.
(30.48)
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah.
�Interviewer: Now would the Germans try to find you?
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
They know, well the Germans knew everything we did. We just had more guys, more people,
and after a while, more tanks. Right and that's where the, when I say ‘tanks,’ they had power
blades on some of ‘em.
Interviewer: Right.
They just knocked the wall, hole in the wall and bust through there and start firing a whole thing,
let us go through then, walking.
Interviewer: So that's the…
…running across the field.
Interviewer: They were doing that at the end of July when they had the breakout…
Yes.
Interviewer: …from Normandy and take Saint- Lô
You’re right, break out of Germany.
Interviewer: Okay, now while you were in Normandy still, before the breakout did you
manage to find any German batteries or guns?
Yes.
Interviewer: That your people knocked out?
Right, well we found them and located ‘em so that the artillery observers…
Interviewer: Right.
…could radio back with a guy with a big pack on his back, and, the, we had to protect him. If the
Germans tried to get our radio.
�Interviewer: Right.
That would, half of their battle’s over with then, they, but there were a lot of things like that and
I refer to cowboys and Indians and all- all the other stuff, it’s the little tricks like that that you
learn, kick the can.
(32.12)
Interviewer: Now how many men would be together if you're going out scouting, how many
of you would there be?
Ten to sixteen.
Interviewer: Okay.
That's almost the whole squad, but you don't want a squad to get wiped out because that's part of
a, the drawing, you know, map.
Interviewer: Right.
And- and- and we had to report back right away if we're losing guys, so they'd forced some guys
up, come up there in the middle of the night. And I always have the famous story there, “halt,”
you know, “what do you mean halt?” “Halt,” and- and so the guy would say, “Kellogg's,” and
you better know the answer. Do you know the answer to that?
Interviewer: I’d go with cornflakes.
That's right.
Interviewer: American culture.
That’s a simple one.
Interviewer: Yeah.
But we had stiffer ones the further out we got into the, into France.
�Interviewer: Okay now if somebody did get hit, if you took any casualties what would you
do with them?
“Medic,” you yell “medic.”
Interviewer: Well but if you're out on a patrol, did you have a medic who would be in your
squad.
Yeah, right yeah, one of the sixteen guys sometimes, one of the seventeen guys, but he just
carried the bandages you know.
(33.24)
Interviewer: Yeah, but then what would you, what could you do? I mean if one of your men
is wounded and you're behind enemy lines.
Yeah right.
Interviewer: Do you carry him out? What do you do?
Well yeah, we carry him out. We'd get him out in the, at night. We get, we had to go through the
line to get- get back with our company through the German, had to go back through the German
and they knew we were out there somewhere, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
And just say they had every hedgerow was numbered in their- their life.
Interviewer: Right, okay now once the breakout, I guess one of the things that happened at
Saint-Lô was at one point we sent large numbers of heavy bombers.
Yes 2000.
Interviewer: Yeah and did- did you hear any of that or see any of that?
�I laid in the hole watching them going by, they’re wing to wing. And- and all we were doing is
cheering, there was no, the only noise we could hear was the antiaircraft from the Germans,
yeah, but they really combed Saint-Lô out.
Interviewer: Yeah, now did you go through the town?
No.
Interviewer: Okay, you went around?
We went to Breat, we were going to Brest.
Interviewer: But to get to Brest, you had to get there somehow.
(34.32)
Yeah, the crossroads, that was a battle. Now they had a lake and a crossroads in French property
and another small time in St. Mary's something like that, that we had to run right through the
town and let the guys behind us get the Germans out of ‘em, we had to get in deep into France.
Interviewer: Right.
As deep as we could so we can get to, meet up with the 4th Division to get to Brest.
Interviewer: Right.
The submarine port and that was really protected, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay now how, so Brest is all the way out at the end of Brittany.
Yes.
Interviewer: So that's a good ways from Normandy, heading west.
Right.
Interviewer: Now what happened to you during that advance?
That's where I jumped over and turned this foot to ankle here and fractured now in here in the
front part here.
�Interviewer: Okay so you- you managed to break your ankle while chasing the Germans?
Yeah, yeah, fractured really.
Interviewer: So not a full brake?
Everything was stretched because I had a pack on and I weighed 200 pounds- 220 pounds and
great shape, great shape, yeah.
(35.41)
Interviewer: Okay, so once you hurt your ankle, what did they do with you?
They- they pulled me out, it hurt, it really hurt. And- and I- and I thought it was broken at first,
so I'm crawling around my hands and knees for a while to- to let people know that there's an
open space where I was out there. And the, course we were Scouts, the whole group were Scouts
and we were all different Scouts, and they, the medic looked at it and he said, “you have to go
back to the aid center,” and so, I crawled back to the aid center and then the following day they
put me on a- a big airplane and took me back to the hospital.
Interviewer: Okay and where was the hospital?
In, of course in England.
Interviewer: Okay.
That's where they, the, that big plane landed there with a lot of P-38s my favorite airplane, the
twin Woolmer. And they put us on the plane, we're all laying down on there and the plane took
off and landed on the other side, real quick trip across that there.
(36.51)
Interviewer: Right.
And the hospital people waiting for us there and- and they had crude x-rays in those days and
they just decided that they would have to build a frame for my foot on there cause they couldn't
�see if it was broken down lower in the foot part of it, that- that foot. And might have taken the
rest of my life to have a broken bone there and they couldn't handle it, yeah.
Interviewer: So how long did you stay in the hospital?
Four weeks.
Interviewer: Okay.
Four weeks, really three weeks and I had one week of freedom. Met a lot of great people.
Interviewer: So, what did you, so could you leave the hospital?
Yes, leave the private, the grounds in fact, leave the grounds there, we’d go into town and- and it
was, its Swansea there.
Interviewer: Okay, so, you're back kind of on your home turf again.
(37.45)
Back- back there and on and- and met some guys that had about the same thing I had in there.
And one guy was from the 1st Division and they were always bumping up against us, we get
twisted around sometime, you guys get out of here you know, we're here, you know
Interviewer: That's right.
But that's the way it was because France is really a small country, everything is small.
Interviewer: Well and initially, well 1st Division went on Omaha Beach ahead of you.
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: And so, they were right in that same beachhead area….
Yeah, right.
Interviewer: …where you’re coming out too and several- several other times later on they
were right next to you.
�Right next to you and the paratroopers, we were still picking up paratroopers along. That's where
the joke came with ‘Kellogg's’ and the guys, he, if he'd say ‘Bran Flakes’ we'd let I'm in and
watch him.
Interviewer: Alright.
But it was cornflakes, that was the main drop off on there. And of course, they had their own
codes to.
Interviewer: Sure.
They, guys in the glider troops and that seemed to be, we were in that in the flatlands in there,
but they had to land in there where all these little, high hedgerows were at there. And a lot of
them would bury their nose of that plane right there, into the- the end of that bank that was there.
(38.59)
Interviewer: Right, okay now when did you go back to France?
I, and I went back to- to, after four weeks there and I went back to Paris.
Interviewer: Okay.
I didn't know my outfit was there, they just dropped me off and then they told me that the 2nd
battalion of Company G who was there. I thought it was great, you know so that's when I called
my two grandparents there, great-great grandparents.
Interviewer: Okay.
And the first one/ person I called was the Bulhoures [?] and they were tickled to death they
couldn't think you know, and they were gonna try to come to us. It's pretty hard- hard to do that
because we took over all the hotels there.
Interviewer: Right.
(39.45)
�We were there to guard trains from Paris, France to the front line of- of, in Belgium.
Interviewer: Right so is this September when you get back? Or is it September or?
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright and so you could use the French phone system to call people? Was
that how you did it?
Right, well I, the- the- the lady and the man were in the hotel, running the hotel there.
Interviewer: Okay.
…they took care of that part, so I got the Deduc [?] Castle, my grandma's there and she said,
“you know if the Germans come back here, they're gonna kill us cause we're talking to you.”
And I said, “we're here and nobody gonna kill you.”
Interviewer: Right.
“We're here,” and- and my grandfather said, he's a, when I went back to the United States a year
later, “they're a bunch of rummies over there on your grandma's side.”
Interviewer: Alright.
Anyway, it was great, it was great.
Interviewer: And when you were in Paris…
Paris.
Interviewer: …did you get time to just go see the city or?
(40.45)
Yes, I got pictures of me hugging the big part of the Eiffel Tower and the Arc de Triomphe. The
both of them stand out.
�Interviewer: Yep.
And I heard about them from my grandparents before I ever thought of a war, you know.
Interviewer: Now when you were a kid did you learn any French?
Yes, I took French in junior high.
Interviewer: Okay.
Our junior high was the 9th grade, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I had some of the words down pretty good.
Interviewer: Okay but did your grandparents ever speak French at home?
Yes, when the- the storms were bad, we were in Lake Michigan, they would talk in French andand I, and the maid never knew it either, and I never knew how to speak French either.
Interviewer: Alright, okay so how long did you stay in Paris?
Two weeks.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah, I had two trips to the- to the front lines.
Interviewer: Okay.
Got back in the noise again.
Interviewer: Alright and so where was your division when you rejoined them, what, where
was the division now?
We- we were up in Belgium.
Interviewer: Okay.
(41.47)
�And- and pretty close to the big force there, Hurtgen Forestand we took somebody's place that
was there, and we were only gonna be there a short time, but it ended up be almost a month.
Interviewer: Alright.
And so, we deluxed our holes in the ground.
Interviewer: Okay, now when you were there were you attacking or were you just holding
your position?
Holding ground.
Interviewer: Okay.
We had to wait for the British to come up on our left over there and wait for the 4th Arm- 4th
Division and a little bit of something in the 1st Division, I never did figure that one out.
Interviewer: Okay so you weren't attacking in the Hürtgen Forest, you were just near it.
No, holding.
Interviewer: Yeah, you were holding.
Holding.
Interviewer: Okay, now did the Germans bother you while you were there?
Yes, they did, they learned how to make bom- their bombs. They'd explode above the trees andand knock all the snow down and lee- leaves, the limbs, on- on that. And so, we’d take all the
extra stuff that fell down after we survived, some guys didn't, they got caught with a shrapnel.
Interviewer: Right.
A lot of shrapnel come eighty- eights, yeah. And- and sometimes we said that they shoot right
directly into the force, right at the trees and that stuff there. And our safest place was facing the
Germans and- and behind the tree, grab a hold and wrap your arms around a tree, like our pine
forest that we have in Michigan for the CCC's.
�(43.19)
Interviewer: Yep.
The same way. And- and the forests were big time money for those people.
Interviewer: Now were you doing scouting work then?
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: And so…
We go back when we didn't have a job to do, we go back maybe a mile and- and- and pull
ourselves together again because we were living out there on nothing but K-rations.
Interviewer: Right.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay, now how close did you get to getting caught?
Did I? Only one bullets to hit, one of the Germans ran out of bullets and I ran out, I got carted
here bullets too.
Interviewer: Okay but did you ever, do they ever get close to capturing you?
Not, no they were dead.
Interviewer: Okay.
They ever dead.
Interviewer: Okay, so basically you didn't really have any close calls?
Oh- oh yeah, you make a mistake some time on there, but a guy will back you up on, one of your
buddies will back you up on that if you didn't see ‘em. And- and we're talking about Scouts, our
job was scouting so there was a lot of distance between us.
�Interviewer: Yep.
And they could tell us you know, and a hand signals helped, yeah.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_DudasW1896V1
Title
A name given to the resource
Dudas, William (1 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-05
Description
An account of the resource
William Dudas was born in Sawyer, MI, just outside of Benton Harbor, in 1924. Dudas enlisted in the Army on July 29, 1943, shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He was selected for scout training and trained at Camp Walters in Texas. Dudas spent six months training in Cardiff, Wales, preparing for the D-Day invasion and landed on Omaha beach a day or two after the first wave, joining his unit on its way to Trevieres, France. Dudas' unit participated in the Battle at Hill 192 and advanced in a rapid push to Brest where he injured his leg during the advance and was sidelined for four weeks before rejoining his unit in Paris. His unit also participated in combat in the Hurtgen Forest, Battle of the Bulge, acrossing the Rhine River, and advancing into Czechoslovakia. After the war, he left the service and attended Western Michigan University to became a high school teacher.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dudas, William L.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
World War II
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d02f8bd781487c49eceea0580b21554e.m4v
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Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Eldon Hunsberger
(00:39:20)
(00:20) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
Eldon was born on a farm in Plainfield, MI
He went to college from 1940 to 1941
Eldon had attempted to join the Army Air Corps, but was not accepted because of an
overbite
He later tried to get in again and they accepted him
Eldon was sent to Santa Ana, CA
(03:47) Training
•
•
•
•
•
Eldon went to primary in Ontario, CA and then learned to fly Steermans, which are single
engine biplanes
He went to Miners Field in Bakersfield, CA for basic training and began training with
BT-13s
They sent him to Colorado to fly the AT-10 and the AT-17, twin engine planes
Out of a class of 120 he was one of 6 that moved on to fly the B-26
In February of 1943 he graduated and was assigned to Florida where he trained more
with B-26s
•
(07:35) Northern Route
•
•
•
•
•
Eldon was sent to Savannah, GA where he began as a co-pilot on a B-26
They flew the Northern Route which went to Savannah, NJ, Maine, Newfoundland,
Greenland, Iceland and England
In England they got fitted with a bigger gas tank and then went to Marrakesh, Morocco
In Iceland they were told not to go into town because they were pro-German
He went to Casablanca to get fitted for battle
(11:08) Tunis
•
•
•
•
•
Eldon saw a lot of wrecked planes when he got to Tunis
His first base was outside of Tunis
Their first mission was over Salerno, Italy
On his second mission he had to land on the beach head
At first they hit ground troops and then they went on to target German supplies
�• There were up to 32 planes in a formation and they flew at 12,000 feet
• After 13 missions he got to be a pilot then they switched back and forth from pilot to copilot
• It took him one year to get 65 missions in
• They “flew when the weather was good”
• He helped out at Anzio in Italy
• Eldon was in South Africa for 2 months and then was sent to an old German airfield in
Sardinia
(20:05) Sardinia
•
•
•
•
Sardinia was a desolate place
The B-26 had the best loss rate of anyone at 1/10th of 1 percent
They had cameras under the planes that took pictures of what they had just bombed
Eldon was supposed to go home after 40 missions but they couldn’t get replacements so
he wasn’t told to go home until he had 65 missions in the summer of 1944
(25:00) Back to the US
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
He went to Naples, Italy and then flew a B-25 home on the Southern Route
When he got back he had some time on leave in Miami, FL
He was offered a position as a flight instructor but he refused
Eldon got in trouble for not dressing right and got sent to flyC-47s towing gliders in
Texas
He went back to Dodge and took an aircraft maintenance course
He became a Maintenance officer
Eldon got to fly an A-26, which was the same concept as the B-26 but made by a
different company and it was faster
(30:19) Reserves
•
•
•
•
He stayed in the Army as a Reserve
He flew the T-6 out of Grand Rapids, MI
Then the C-46, the AT-11, and the AT-6 out of Detroit, MI
Eldon also worked as a carpenter
(31:30) Recalled for Korea
•
•
•
•
Eldon was recalled in April of 1952
He was first sent to Roswell, NM
Then took a Squadron Officer course in Alabama
He Flew 800 hours in a KB-29
�•
•
Eldon stayed near the US and refueled planes that were going to Hawaii
After he was done he went back into the reserves, spending a total of 23 years in the
military
(34:50) Feelings about His Experiences
• He enjoyed being in the Military
• Eldon was glad he wasn’t on the ground
(35:35) Jobs
•
•
After the service he ran an airport, but didn’t like all of the restrictions
He was also a Builders Hardware Salesman
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EHunsberger
Title
A name given to the resource
Hunsberger, Eldon (Interview outline and video), 2008
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-04-19
Description
An account of the resource
Eldon Hunsberger was born on a farm in Plainfield, Michigan. He went to college for 2 years and then joined the Army Air Corps and trained as a pilot. He flew B-26 bombers on 65 missions over Italy from bases in Tunisia, Sardinia and Italy. When he got back to the US he was in the Army Reserve and then got called back in April of 1952 for the Korean War. Eldon flew a KB-29 and refueled planes on their way to Hawaii.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hunsberger, Eldon
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.)
BCTV
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army. Air Corps
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Language
A language of the resource
eng
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Special Collections & University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Robert T. Smith
Date of Interview: 04-23-1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 8]
R.T. SMITH:
Well I think when Bissell came to Kunming and explained how we
owed it to our country and we had to sign up and go into the
military right then and there, if we decided we didn't want to do
that, we'd have to figure out how to get home on our own, there
wouldn't be any help from the Air Corps or anybody else, we'd be
met by our draft boards the minute we got to the States. He was
predicting all these wonderful dire things that were gonna happen
to us. I think many of us might have accepted induction there at
that time if he at least might have said "We'll give you a couple of
weeks leave, go to Calcutta, let out some steam, relax and enjoy
yourselves a little while and then come back and take your
commissions here and carry on." Well we were told that we would
not have R&R at all, we could have no leave and took it or left it
and by this time most of us were pretty peed off with Mr. Bissell General Bissell and we said the hell with it, we'll go back and take
our chances. We knew we could all be re-commissioned in the
service branch we had left when we went over there. The minute
we got back we knew that they'd take us back and give us a good
commission, appropriate rank and whatnot, plus the fact we knew
we could have a little time off. So I think that was the big thing for
most of us and that's what happened. Most of us came back and I
think only 5 of our guys said "Okay we'll take commissions over
here." They did and more power to them, but most of said "No
we'll go back and take our chances." Almost all of us went back
into the service branch we'd been in before we left and were re-
�commissioned or whatever and most of us wound up back on a
second combat tour someplace in the World War II area before it
was over.
FRANK BORING:
Why did you need time off?
R.T. SMITH:
Jesus Christ! That shouldn't be necessary to tell anybody. What
the hell, after all these months of fighting and flying without any
decent food or living accommodations, attention - the whole
goddamn - Jesus Christ - do you have to tell somebody why we felt
we needed a little time off? Did I tell you? Did you get it? Why
anybody would wonder why we needed a little time off.
(break)
FRANK BORING:
Why did the guys need time off?
R.T. SMITH:
Well I think most of us felt that we would like to have a little time
off because we'd been under quite a bit of pressure and hardship
for some months now. Combat, living conditions, the whole damn
thing. We hadn't had any recreation, no place to go, nothing to do
that was fun. We'd been through 6 months of this and we thought
well golly at least they could give us a couple of week to go
someplace and unwind and get rested up a little bit. And Bissell
and I guess the powers that be in the Air Corps said no, hell there's
a war going on. As a matter of fact, I think he used that term with
Bob Neal at one point and Bob said "Yeah I'm pretty well aware
there's been a war going on." But I think Bissell actually used that
expression at one time. And I think that was the most asinine thing
I ever heard. Well anyway we thought we not only deserved, but
needed maybe a little bit of time off to kind of unwind… only
when I was getting shot at. I get this question all the time "Did you
ever have any second thoughts about going over there in that
AVG?" I said "Only when I was getting shot at."
�FRANK BORING:
Just looking back on it now, how do you look at that period of time
in your life? How do you feel about that particular time in your
life in terms of your life?
R.T. SMITH:
I guess it was obviously the most exciting and satisfactory period
of my entire life. The fact that I survived made it satisfactory
certainly. I was reasonably satisfied I guess, with the job I did,
which I felt was something that had to be done. I was glad to be
able to contribute a little bit of whatever I did. It was damn sure
exciting. It was the adventure I had looked for in spades and as I
say it was one of those things I wouldn't take a million dollars for
the experience and that adventure and I sure as hell wouldn't do it
again for a million dollars. Does that answer your question?
FRANK BORING:
Give us the answer you give everybody else about any regrets.
R.T. SMITH:
I'm frequently asked by people that give shows for different places
if I had any second thoughts about joining up with the AVG, and
getting into all that business and my stock answer is that the only
time I had second thoughts about it was when I was getting shot at.
I had a lot of second thoughts at those times.
FRANK BORING:
Okay I have one last question. I see your books, you've read a lot,
you know about that period. Give us some evaluation on your part
of what the AVG, the Flying Tigers meant to the defense of China
and the United States during that time.
R.T. SMITH:
I guess as I look back on it and realize what happened at that time,
I don't believe that any of us at that time realized that what we
were doing in Burma and China in those very early days after the
United States got into the war with Japan, I don't think many of us
realized that we were about the only outfit that was chalking up
any victories and having some success against the Japanese. They
apparently were running all over everybody all over the Far East
and we were about the only ones apparently that were doing any
damage to them and it wasn't until some weeks after that, that we
�started getting newspaper clippings and magazine clippings and
stories and all of a sudden we're the Flying Tigers and the
American Volunteer Group is doing this and that. Many of these
stories that were written were blown out of proportion, they were
exaggerated. But apparently, what we were doing gave a lot of
people in the United States some hope that the Japanese were not
going to beat the hell out of everybody that happened to be
wearing an American uniform, or that were fighting as Americans.
I think we were all pleased with this of course, and that meant a lot
to us. But I think to the people in the States it was something to
kind of get a hold of and say "Hey, we've got some guys over there
that are doing pretty well." and of course that made us proud.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88_Smith_Robert_T_1991-04-23_v08
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smith, Robert T.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-04-23
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert T. Smith interview (video and transcript, 8 of 8), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Robert T. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. R. T. Smith joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941, after resiging his commission as a U.S. Army Air Corps basic flight instructor. He served in the AVG as Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." In the AVG he was credited with shooting down 8 Japanese planes and was awarded the Nine Star Medal and Order of Cloud Banner by the Chinese government. He returned to the US in 1942 and was drafted into the US Army, but was quickly re-commissioned as a US Air Corps Second Lieutenant. Over the course of the war, Smith returned to the Pacific Theater and flew 55 combat missions over Burma. He was awarded the Air Medal, Distinguisghed Flying Cross, and Silver Star. In this tape, Smith describes the meeting with General Bissell in the final days of the AVG and the significance of the Flying Tigers in Chinese and American history.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e9b115f7fea5bd8d3732cbd5dc84bee7.mp4
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c256829de2ca1127f6b251cba881fca0.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Special Collections & University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Robert T. Smith
Date of Interview: 04-23-1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 7]
R.T. SMITH:
Well, when I got back from the African trip, I spent a few days in
Kunming relaxing and enjoying life again and it was about that
time that the squadron, my squadron was sent down to Loiwing,
China, which was right next to the Burma border and near the
Salween River. Meanwhile, while I had been gone, our guys had
been kicked out of Rangoon. The First and Second Squadrons had
been pushed out of Rangoon and worked their way up through
Magwe and the other places and some of them now were coming
back to Kunming and others were moving up to this little airfield
called Loiwing and the squadron I was in was sent down to join up
with them and we were gonna carry on from there. The Japanese
ground army had been pounding all the way up north into Burma
and their airfields - they had taken over the airfield in Rangoon,
they had taken over the airfield in Toungoo and other places that
we at one time had occupied. But they kept moving up north and
we had to…
(break)
R.T. SMITH:
So my squadron it was decided they would be moved to Loiwing.
We went down there and then we started flying some missions
down - the Chinese had some ground army down in the vicinity of
Toungoo and it was decided that we would fly some morale
missions to go down and show the Chinese star on our wings and
try to make the ground army feel good. We didn't like those
because we had to do it at low altitude and every now and then
�we'd get jumped by Jap fighters and we got into a few scraps that
way. But actually there wasn't too much activity for a while. Then
eventually we started going out and doing some offensive raids
into Indo-China and Thailand trying to catch them on the ground
with their airplanes and shooting up their airfields. Go on raids and
all and we did that a few times. We lost a few airplanes and a few
pilots doing that and then the Japs started coming back and trying
to catch us unawares at Loiwing and they did that a time or two.
One morning early, they caught us before we could get our
airplanes ready to go. This went on for some weeks and there were
a lot of fights going on, but a different kind of activity.
FRANK BORING:
………missions and I know that it did cause a certain amount of
dissention among the ranks. Could you talk about that a little bit?
R.T. SMITH:
Well this was something I guess that the Chinese - Chiang Kaishek and his people decided they wanted to do to show the Chinese
troops that there were Chinese airplanes around to help protect
them. Because our airplanes had the Chinese twelve pointed star
on the wing and all. So they wanted us to fly that - well hell, in
order for the Chinese troops to see what the insignia looked like,
we had to fly pretty low - 1000 feet or so. Well this meant that we
were exposed - we were flying down, this was in the front line area
where the Chinese and the Japanese were fighting each other on
the ground and the Japanese had airfields all behind that area and
all we had to do was fly down there at 1000 feet and expect to find
a few Jap fighters coming down on top of us. This did not sit well
with us and we let that be known pretty well to Chennault, and he
in turn passed that on I guess to Chiang Kai-shek and eventually
that sort of thing was kind of stopped. This was a lousy way to run
a railroad as far as we were concerned.
FRANK BORING:
There actually was a confrontation I understand with Chennault.
Perhaps the only one you ever really got into with him.
�R.T. SMITH:
Yeah, that was part of it. At one point someplace there in Loiwing
there were several missions that were proposed. Those morale
missions were among them. There were a couple of others that
they wanted to run taking some P-40's to escort a bunch of British
RAF Blenheim bombers over to Chiang Mai to bomb that airfield
and we were supposed to send a few P-40's along to escort them at
low altitude in daylight, 160 miles into enemy territory and that
was a complete idiot mission and all of our people were involved
in that sort of thing. Brought that to the attention of Chennault and
Chennault was saying "Well this is what we're supposed to do" and
by this time Stillwell, who was a ground officer and who was over
Chennault in that area had told him this was one of the missions he
wanted him to do and Chennault reported back to Stillwell "Well
our guys say they're not gonna do it." So it was one of those funny
thing where all of our guys got together and said we're gonna tell
Chennault this is a stupid mission and knock it off. Chennault
comes back - of course we have this big meeting - and Chennault
came back and said "Listen, you're gonna take orders or else you're
gonna be guilty of desertion and all of you will be subjected to
dishonorable discharges." Well hell, we're all civilians and who
ever heard of a dishonorable discharge in a civilian organization?
So we brought that point up too. We had this big meeting and
hashed it out. It came up to be one of those things where about 5
out of 6 of us of about 30 said "Okay if you want to do this kind of
stuff, we'd like to get out of our contract and resign our duties with
the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation." We wrote a
thing to that effect and I think about 25 out of 30 guys signed this
thing and handed it to Chennault and now all of a sudden he's
about to lose half of his air force and he called another meeting and
said "I won't accept this" and we kind of laughed and said "We
didn't expect you to" and the next thing we knew was the whole
thing was pretty well settled and Chennault got the message. He
went back to Stillwell and Chiang Kai-shek and said "Don't ask me
to send my guys on some stupid thing like that." And I think they
got the message and we were never asked to do that again and the
whole thing blew over. It didn't amount to much.
�FRANK BORING:
Just to finish up that whole thing, there was an incident where
Chennault said something about a white feather that got you pretty
steamed. What was that?
R.T. SMITH:
Yeah that got me steamed. Well it was during that meeting and he
was talking about - now I hadn't been scheduled to go on this
particular mission that was scheduled to escort these Blenheim
bombers to Chiang Mai, but when the guys objected to that and
then Chennault came in at that meeting and said "Well if you guys
want to show the white feather, by God, I'll accept your
resignations." That really bugged me and I got up and shot off my
two bits worth and said "General Chennault, I don't know how in
the hell you can accuse anybody in this outfit of showing the white
feather. I think we've already demonstrated the fact that we're not
cowards," which is what white feather means, and I said "I think
you owe us all an apology" or words to that effect. And by God, if
he didn't turn around and apologize. He said "That's not what I
meant really and blah, blah, blah" So we got over that little thing
but that was kind of a bone of contention with some of us and was
just one of the things that happened.
FRANK BORING:
Could you describe for us the incident - the Salween Bridge, which
was May 7th?
R.T. SMITH:
Well, I don't know too much about that. I think on one or two of
those occasions over the Salween, I was flying in the top cover
thing and the other guys, Tex Hill and his gang, were doing the
dive bombing and the strafing down right around the bridge and on
the Burma Road. I'm flying up there at 12000 feet looking for
enemy Jap fighters and was not involved in that. So I can't speak
too well of that.
FRANK BORING:
We had talked earlier about an incident where you were chasing 3
planes. You ended up getting the tail one and the other two kept
flying. Could you describe that again for us?
�R.T. SMITH:
Well that again was out of Loiwing. We'd gone up on an alert and
the Japanese came in with a whole bunch of fighters and started
shooting up the Loiwing area and we went up, played around with
them a little bit through the clouds and shot down 3 or 4 in all. But
I hadn't done any good and I wound up all by myself out in the
middle of nowhere and started heading southeast in the direction
that I thought the Jap fighters would be taking when they headed
home and sure enough, in the distance I saw 3 specks and I was
sure that they were Jap fighters. So I fireballed everything and tried
to catch up to them and I stayed down low, wanting to come in
underneath them so they wouldn't look around behind them and
see me sitting there in the sky. So after about 10 minutes or so I
was practically underneath all three of them, particularly the last
guy. It's a funny thing, there were two guys flying together very
close to each other in formation and then the third guy was about
200 yards behind the two in front and I was right underneath this
last guy, maybe 1000 feet below him, so by trading speed for
altitude I was able to pull right up behind him and park right on his
tail, maybe 100 yards behind him, and opened up with everything.
He pulled up very sharply and then peeled off and headed straight
down and I expected him to blow up when I first hit him or catch
fire, and he didn't. So when he pulled up and headed down that
way, I did the same thing. I'm shooting at him all the way down
and he's heading right straight for the ground, I'm shooting all this
time and thinking my God why doesn't he burn? By this time I had
to pull out myself and he went right straight into the ground and I
pulled out and headed back toward the southeast and I look in the
distance and there's these two guys still going straight and level
right heading for home, never knew what happened to this guy
behind them. I kept kicking myself, because I think the guy that I
shot in the first place, I think he was dead in the first instant and I
could have slid over behind the other two and picked them both off
in the space of 15 seconds if I had known that. But I didn't and
meanwhile the other two guys they just kept merrily going on their
way.
�FRANK BORING:
What I'd like to do now is just give you some names of various
people that you knew back then - just any comments that you have.
Some of them are very well known, some of them aren't that well
known, but for example we'll start off with - did you have much
interaction with either Harvey Greenlaw, Olga Greenlaw?
R.T. SMITH:
Enough to get to know them quite well I would say. I wasn't close
to them but I was exposed to them on many occasions. I got to
know them. As a matter of fact I liked old Harvey and Olga too, as
far as that goes. I can't say much more than that I guess.
FRANK BORING:
I guess what I was looking for was - in Harvey's case for example,
he was there to help with administration, but so often a lot of guys
said they never really saw him administrate anything. I was just
wondering what were your impressions of his duties and what did
he serve to do with the AVG?
R.T. SMITH:
I don't know. You'd have to talk to some of the guys that were
closer to him in the administrative area than I was. I didn't have
anything to do with him in that. I know he spent a lot of time
around the office, what he did, hell I don't know.
FRANK BORING:
What about Olga? She must have had a certain fascination; she
was a very attractive woman.
R.T. SMITH:
She was a very attractive woman and a lot of our guys found her
very attractive and I think she found some of our guys quite
attractive and I wasn't one of them, unfortunately, I guess. But
Olga was a very attractive young lady.
FRANK BORING:
What about Greg Boyington? Did you know him at all?
R.T. SMITH:
Yeah I knew him. I didn't know him real well at that time because
we were in different squadrons.
(break)
�FRANK BORING:
Okay. We'll just start off with Boyington.
R.T. SMITH:
Greg Boyington. I didn't know Greg as well as many of our guys
did because he and I were in different squadrons and it was only on
a couple of occasions, for short periods, that our two squadrons
happened to be at the same place at the same time. So I didn't
know him too well. I didn't have any trouble with him. I know that
he was a trouble maker in many ways according to a lot of people.
He never gave me a bad time but that didn't mean anything either. I
got to know Greg a lot better after the war was over than I did
while it was on. So I'm afraid I can't speak too much about Greg.
FRANK BORING:
You had mentioned much earlier that you had met Bert Christman
with Tex Hill.
R.T. SMITH:
Well he was on our boat going over to Burma from San Francisco.
A hell of a nice guy, very talented, he was an artist of course as I
guess everybody knows. He at one time had contributed to Scorchy
Smith cartoon comedy kind of thing in the papers. A real nice guy,
very quiet, very subdued, but just a real nice guy. Here again, he
was in a different squadron. He wound up in the Second Squadron.
The only time I really got acquainted with him was on the boat
going over.
FRANK BORING:
General Bissell?
R.T. SMITH:
Bissell? I don't know too much about him either except that he
rubbed everybody the wrong way when he came up to Kunming
and started telling everybody if you didn't sign up to go back into
the Air Corps and accept commissions over there, we were going
to be met by our draft board when we got home and it was that or
else. And of course, that was about it all it took from a bunch of us
to say well "or else" and I didn't know Bissell any more than that,
except to be exposed to him to that degree. As far as I'm concerned
he was a sorry specimen of an Air Force officer who was trying - if
�he was trying to get us on his side, he sure went about it the wrong
way.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88_Smith_Robert_T_1991-04-23_v07
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smith, Robert T.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-04-23
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert T. Smith interview (video and transcript, 7 of 8), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Robert T. Smith by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. R. T. Smith joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941, after resiging his commission as a U.S. Army Air Corps basic flight instructor. He served in the AVG as Flight Leader for the 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." In the AVG he was credited with shooting down 8 Japanese planes and was awarded the Nine Star Medal and Order of Cloud Banner by the Chinese government. He returned to the US in 1942 and was drafted into the US Army, but was quickly re-commissioned as a US Air Corps Second Lieutenant. Over the course of the war, Smith returned to the Pacific Theater and flew 55 combat missions over Burma. He was awarded the Air Medal, Distinguisghed Flying Cross, and Silver Star. In this tape, Smith discusses the morale missions that his squadron was a part of in Loiwing, in addition to his impressions of Harvey and Olga Greenlaw, Greg Boyington, Bert Christman, and General Bissell.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng