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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/94599a5c1500f05223ff9ddca2dc4845.pdf
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Speaking Out
Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Interviewee: Colette Seguin Beighley
Interviewers: John Deork, Kaylee Niemiec, Justin Vanportfliet and Leah Anderson.
Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/16/2012
Biography and Description
Colette Seguin Beighley was born in Oakland, California. She attended California State University,
Haworth. She is a liscensed counsoler in California and Michigan. She discusses her activism with
the Grand Valley State University LGBT Resource Center.
Transcript
VANPORTFLIET: Ok, why don’t we go around and say our names of the group first.
I’m John Deork, Kaylee Niemiec, Justin Vanportfliet, and Leah Anderson.
Ok so the date today is March 16th its 12 o’clock noon, at Grand Valley State University, in Allendale, in
Michigan. were here today to talk about the subject of Civil rights here in West Michigan. Can you
please state your name for the recorder?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Colette Seguin Beighley
VANPORTFLIET: Thank you, Ok so where you born?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I was born in Oakland, California.
VANPORTFLIET: Ok, and then so what was life like, Life growing up in California.
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well let’s see, I was born in the projects, which people are usually surprised about. I
think that when you’re in such a privileged spot like the university people always think that you come
from that type of space, but I did not. I had the great opportunity of being in the bay area during a time
in which there was so much civil rights work going on. It started with the free speech movement at
Berkley, and then it went to the Civil rights movement, the women’s movement, Indians of all tribes,
occupy Alcatraz, the gay rights movement, all that was happening in that space that I grew up in, so that
was very influential.
VANPORTFLIET: O yea I bet, so did you go to college?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes,
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�VANPORTFLIET: Ok where did you go?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I went to California State University, Haworth.
VANPORTFLIET: Ok, so what was life like there? Like what was the kind of atmosphere at the college
because you already referenced some of the big civil rights movements going on there, so what kind of
atmosphere like with a bunch of that kinda going on?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yea there was a lot happening in Central America, and there was a lot happening
with apartheid in South Africa during that time, so a lot of that stuff was really on the radar, but that
particular campus was not as much of an activist campus as Berkley was. but still we had education
around those issues and they were on the radar.
VANPORTFLIET: Did you have any personal involvement during your college years?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: In college?
VANPORTFLIET: Yeah.
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No not really, when I was in high school I was involved in a few things against
nuclear power plants, but that was about it.
VANPORTFLIET: Ok and after college, what was your life kinda like, just a quick background?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I got a masters degree in counseling and I am a licensed marriage and family
therapist in both California and Michigan. So I had 25 years of private practice experience before I
started this new chapter of my life, so that was very much what I did. I did a lot of advocating for youth
in particular; I worked with beyond control youth, run away youth, homeless youth. And so I had some
experience with that and those were all great experiences that lead me to this point. And I think that
having a degree in counseling is really great preparation for doing student services work.
VANPORTFLIET: Right, so you already referenced your daughter, who I know, but what is your family
like?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: What is my family like? Hahaha well I have some great kids, I have 2 stepsons from
my former marriage, and they both live in Grand Haven. One of them is married to my daughter in law
of course, who is a very good friend of mine. The other one just got engaged, and then I have a
biological son Ari who is currently living in Amherst, Massachusetts, and then my daughter Chloe who is
a junior here and is just a Princess after three boys.
VANPORTFLIET: Ok, so does anyone else have any questions before I keep going?
NIEMIEC: I was just wondering, when you were growing up like with your family, what was your family
like when you were a child, were you very religious, were your parents strict at all?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well let’s see, my mom had been married before so there were two siblings but they
didn’t grow up with me they lived with their dad, so I was really an only child. I remember when we
were living in the projects and it was really rough, what’s always below the surface is your safety. We
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�moved out of there when I was eight years old, but that’s definitely that way that I learned to navigate
the world. And I remember being really afraid, like terrified, you know a couple of bad things happened
so that was kinda a rough way to enter the world. But my mom was super, super, super loving and
supportive and my dad was fairly absent, alcoholic. That’s probably too much information hahaha. Then
when I was eight we moved to a suburb of the east bay, Dublin. And it was, it went from a very diverse
living situation to really an all white neighborhood. And I went to elementary, middle school, and high
school in that environment. It was fine but you know as I really appreciate diversity, so I was kind of sad
that I lost that but my family valued diversity and always looked at people who were different them
ourselves as an opportunity to step back and learn more about the world. I think they did some things
wrong, I can remember some things that were probably pretty offensive to especially African American
people, but it was not, it was just out of their own ignorance. But we weren’t even talking about things
like White privilege at the time so people would step all over their whiteness without even knowing it.
But we had friends who were from the deaf community; we had friends that were from the gay and
lesbian community. And every time my parent would prepare me for ‘were going to meet this family and
this is what their like, you may have questions and we will talk about it afterwards’, really open in that
way. And I was raised catholic, but I won’t say that it was a very religious family, my parents, because my
mom was divorced before my mom could never really become catholic but they had this idea that, that
is what they should raise me as. I went to church with a lot of different family, and did first communion
and catechism and all that. It provides a sort of structure well your growing up so I appreciated that.
VANPORTFLIET: So what kind of drew you to initially counseling, you said you graduated with a masters
in family counseling, what initially drew you to that? Was it your diversity in your childhood?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No, no my family is very crazy hahaha and I just wanted to figure out, what the heck
happened here? And how can I possibly go on and create a healthy family. And I cant do that unless I
know, how do you do a healthy family and what the hell happened here? And that was really it, in fact I
even went on to a year of my PHD program and then I sort of came to terms, actually trough my work
there that I was kinda done. I just wanted to figure out a few things and I had figured it out. Now I
wished I had finished hahaha just my desire to get into counseling was just to figure out the world, to
get some of what I didn’t get growing up. A skill set to go out.
VANPORTFLIET: So how long did you do the counseling?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: For about 25 years.
VANPORTFLIET: Wow, so was that in California?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No I was in California for only about 3 years, the rest was in Michigan.
VANPORTFLIET: So you moved to Michigan for your Job?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Nope, I moved to Michigan because my then husband’s family was from Michigan
and we thought it would be a good environment to raise kids because the cousins were here. And it is a
good place to raise kids, unless one of your kids turns out to be gay then maybe not so much, which we
found out.
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�VANPORTFLIET: So you said Ari, who is gay, who I know. He is actually a good friend, I am sad he moved
away, but what was it like raising Ari or maybe you can broaden the spectrum a little bit like raising a gay
or lesbian son in west Michigan?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Ari was really set apart from all the other kids because he was profoundly gifted. He
got into a Johns Hoppkins program when he was in 8th grade that was reserved for students in the
United States for students who scored the top half of one percent in the nation. So that was really a
challenge, it was always a challenge for him. To keep him stimulated, to have his needs meet, to keep
him grounded. And that always made him different, from any of the other kids, different in the way he
related; but he was always different from the other kids. He was extremely demonstrative and that
worked till he was about 6 then his male relatives wanted him to man up a bit. He never really did, he’s
just who he is. And I didn’t raise him thinking that he was gay, I raised him thinking that he was a unique
individual who didn’t really fit, kinda a square peg in a round hole. But I do remember when he was
maybe 2 and a half. I was sitting on his bedroom floor he was playing, playing dress up and he dressed
up and he was like spinning around and he was working it. And I remember thinking, ‘oh this kid might
be gay, I wonder if I’m going to be returning to this conversation in 10 years or so’ and then I put it out
of my head. Until he was about 13 or 14. By the time he was about 14, he was really questioning and I
was really questioning him too. Then he eventually came out when he was 16.
VANPORTFLIET: From your perspective, what was that like for him? You said he was always so different,
always set apart what was that like for him, like at school? Because at 16 that is such a rough time for
everyone, having that kind of revelation and kind of life change.
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I think it was incredible rough, he was not getting along with his sister, and his sister
is his best friend in the whole world! He was just irascible and when he did come out, we ended up
doing this retreat together as a family. Six of us got on a plane and went to Santé Fe and did this. The
experience coming out powerfully, and at this retreat like all retreats, you have to write a letter. And
then they make you read the letter.
VANPORTFLIET: Yeah.
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: It lame but whatever. He read the letter and he read it to his dad and I. And he said,
you know, mom and dad you are such good parents. And I’m thinking, okay there’s something; let’s cut
to the chase here. . And then he said but there’s something I have to tell you. And then it was so
tremendous moment. My adrenaline just shot to my head. And I remember just going through the
rolodex like in split seconds of how did I screw up? How did I not protect him from getting hurt? And
then he talked about how when he was in middle school, he had been……well a few boys had thought he
was gay. And they targeted him. And they would wait for him in the stairwell of the school and beat him
up every day. But they wouldn’t beat him on his face or on his arms, only on the lower body. But they
would beat him until the point that he would vomit blood. And I hyperventilated when he said that. I
never hyperventilated in my life, but it was just so awful. It was so awful to know that he had been going
through that and we had no idea. And you know, two therapists as parents you’d think we would have a
clue, but we didn’t have any idea. So I just felt so awful that he had to go through that alone. And it
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�really it explained so much about how he was irascible during those years and just so difficult to live
with. and also how he was so much freer and comfortable with himself after he came out.
VANPORTFLIET: Right.
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah.
VANPORTFLIET: Do you guys have anything questions? (Looking at group)
DEORK: Have you always had a good relationship with him?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes. Not that I don’t drive him crazy. I do of course. But yes.
(Laughter)
ANDERSON: Do you think that has helped him in this experience with this?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: . I don’t know. I would think so but I’m the last person to…you should talk to him. Call
him up.
(Laughter)
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: ask him what he thinks. I’m sure at times it’s been annoying as how to have a mom
that is so out there. You know.
(Laughter)
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: It’s like, can you please tone it down a bit? You know. But he’s never said that. He’s
always a big cheerleader too, so.
VANPORTFLIET: . So, what is your title here at the college?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I am director of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender resource center. LGBT
resource center.
VANPORTFLIET: Right. and then kind of take us through like what is your job description. Like, what kind
of things do you do as the director of the LGBT center?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Okay well, let me tell you about the LGBT resource center then ill break it down.
VANPORTFLIET: Yeah of course.
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: So, our mission is to empower students to lead …if I didn’t have a cold. (Laughter)
(Pause)
Okay, to empower students to lead authentic lives to challenge gender and sexuality stereotypes and to
work for social justice. So, we look to our center as serving 25,000 members of the community, not just
the LGBTQ community. Because all of our students live in a world with gross inequality and part of their
education needs to be coming to terms with their place in that world. Understanding what’s happening
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�with marginalized communities. And then what, how does that fit with their lives and with what they are
going to do. so we, we serve the entire student body and then specifically we serve LGBTQ students. So
we have our Freshmen Queer Alliance which is for first year students and it really is to operate a safety
net for them. A place to connect, many students don’t come out until they get to college when they can
finally separate from their families of origin and trying a new identity. it’s a social group but we also take
them on bus trips so that they can learn the bus system and go downtown a bit, and learn where the
food places are on campus, and where resources are if they need help with writing or something like
that. and then they do fun things like bowling and watch movies and that sort of things. So our
Freshmen Queer Alliance is really to just give them a place to be here on campus. And then we also have
our Pipeline Leadership Group which is for second year students and above. And that’s a yearlong
leadership program that really focuses on advocacy and activism. And it is also open to our allies as
well. This year we have our first ally student in the leadership group and it really has been a lot of fun.
And then we have our LGBT ambassadors. And they help us out in many ways; whether it is at a social
event, our ice cream social at the beginning of the year. They come in their rainbow, GVSU shirts. And
look for those students who may be sitting alone or may be trying to find out, find a way to get
connected. And they also go into classrooms and do presentations. For our allies and advocate training
they tell their stories of coming out, and just wherever we need help our LGBT ambassadors are right
there. We also have our monthly on-going LGBT conference, which looks at LGBT and leadership,
gender, culture, race, spirituality, and one other thing.
(Laughter)
And that’s a monthly event that’s LIB100 approved and US201 approved. That really introduces LGBT
issues and ideas on campus. We have our lavender graduation; this will be our sixth year. For lavender
graduation, it is actually older than the center. This is the fourth year for the center. And it is a time to
celebrate the scholastic achievements of our LBGT and ally students. And it is a lot of fun. It’s a big deal.
So, we really, really put a lot of effort into lavender graduation. We also have open door discussions
where students can come up with their own topic and do their own program in the center. And that is
really fascinating to see what kind of things students come up with. We just had one on gay stereotypes.
and what else do we do? Oh we have our change and training for social justice, which is semester long
program that’s grant funded. And it looks at systems, intersecting systems, of oppression, racism sexism,
homophobia, and how they are interdependent and need one another to survive. And we have a 1.0
and a 2.0. And so our students learn the framework in the 1.0 and then they really dig into strategies
and tactics for activism in the second one. So, that’s really a very dynamic program. So just to give you,
and then our allies and advocate training we do that for the Greek community and then we do it for the
general community as well. So I’m not sure if I hit all of our programs but that the smorgasbord of what
we do.
VANPORTFLIET: That is a lot of involvement.
ANDERSON: Yeah, that’s a lot.
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes. So then my role is to work with the students to develop that program that meets
their needs. To really help cast a vision for the center. And to be involved in the greater LGBT
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�community, to keep us tied to current events. So I’m on the board of our state wide Antiviolence and
Advocacy Organization Equality Michigan. And I work with the national consourcion of LGBT resource
professionals in higher education. And I go to the national gay and lesbian test force conference on
creating change every year. And I present at conferences on specifically of expanding the circle which is
LGBTQ’s studies and services in higher education. So it’s the only conference that’s really devoted
specifically to the issues that we serve. And I’m presenting at two workshops this summer at that
conference. So all of that helps me to have a broad sense of the movement. And being able to connect
our students to what’s happening in the community and understand nationally. I just like the first week I
was here when I was assistant director, I remember a student getting fired. And I remember him saying,
“You can’t fire me. I have my rights.” That’s what he said, he was going to say it to the person who fired
him. And no you can be fired for being gay in Michigan. There are no protections; there are absolutely
no protections in Michigan. Sexual orientation and gender identity is not included in Elliot Larson’s Civil
Rights Act. It’s not included in our hate crimes on law. We don’t have second parent adoption. We just
recently, after ten years of work, finally passed an anti-bullying bill. But it’s completely toothless and
ineffective. There were only two states in the nation left who hadn’t passed an anti-bullying bill and
Michigan was one of them. We did it because we were ashamed into it, but it is completely not
powerful. And then, our constitution rewritten inequality into our constitution by saying that marriage is
between one man and one woman. So it’s rough here. And our students need to understand, yet I don’t
want to paint a black picture of their future for them. But I really want to help them to build allies and
collisions to go out and change the inequity that excess; not only for the LGBT community, but the
immigrant community as a target. A huge islamophobia around the country now. So, all those issues are
important and they all impact LGBT lives as well, because our community goes throughout. We have
Muslim LGBT people; we have LGBT people who are immigrants. So all those issues are our issues as
well. So back to being director. I do all those things and help the programming move forward, to cast
division for the center, to keep connected with local state and national movement s. And then also to
work within the university to move us forward in being more equitable. In the summer of 2008, we
added gender identity and expression to our antidiscrimination policy. But yet, four years later, we do
not have policies in place for a staff or faculty member who is looking to transition. So if somebody is
identifying as transgender and wants to start transitioning, they want to see a policy in place. They don’t
want to have to go into human resources and be the first person to do that. So the vice president of
inclusion and equity, Gene Arnold, has formed the Gender Identity and Expression Committee. And I
serve on that committee. And we are looking at policies throughout the university, whether it’s
developing gender neutral locker room space. Creating health, or adding healthcare coverage that is
trans inclusive. Working with banner, we’re going to be an experimental university to work with banner
so that they can, students, can choose a preferred name, and not, if somebody is transitioning and they
are going by Jane, but their banner says John and their professor outs them in class it’s public safety
issue to them. You know? And it’s also so difficult for them to go to every single professor before class
begins and tell the story and see if they can get you know they can get by in, and most of the time the
professors want to do the right thing but certainly there have been professors who have refused to call
them by their preferred name. So then when that happens we get involved, and also I’m on the
university’s team against bias, so I’ve worked with bias incidents on campus along with other members
of the team, so working with policy and our campus climate is really an important piece of the work we
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�do cause we want all students to feel safe and we want to retain our students once they come here, all
students, not just LGBT students but all students. That’s a very long answer.
VANPORTFLIET: Aw, that’s okay. so how do you feel that Grand Valley is compared to other schools
maybe in Michigan, cause it’s here in West Michigan thats traditionally very religious a religious part of
the state, very conservative, so but my opinion I feel like with this center we’re making good steps
toward being very proactive, but what’s your opinion?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I think compared to other public universities we’re doing really well. We have a
4.5 out of 5 star rating on the campus LGBT friendly campus climate index, and that’s the highest any
school has. At one point the University of Michigan had a 5, but they have moved down to a 4.5
because they have raised the bar a bit to meet the needs of transgender students –
VANPORTFLIET: Mmhm
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: More thoroughly, and lets see there are 4 universities, one, two, three, four, five,
lets see, maybe not, theres University of Michigan, MSU, Eastern, Tech, Grand Valley, all have 4.5
ratings, so we feel good about that but University of Michigan had the first LGBT resource center in the
country but it was four decades before we got ours at Grand Valley. And that said only 7% of campuses
in the United States have LGBT resource centers. So we are still ahead of the curve there. And with our
implementation of gender neutral housing this past fall we’ve moved even further ahead because I think
that after the loss of Tyler Clementi at Rutgers last fall, universities are understanding that they need to
listen to the housing needs of their LGBT students more closely. And right after that tragedy Rutgers
implemented gender neutral housing. So other universities want to be pro-active so that they are not
responding to a negative event, but really doing you know, being ahead of that. so I think that Grand
Valley has a long way to go, there are lots of ways we do not meet the needs of our LGBTQ students,
faculty, and staff. But we have also come a long way, and we have a tremendous amount of support
here, so, I give us high marks.
VANPORTFLIET: So, what is, what is maybe the biggest thing here at Grand Valley that we could do to
improve, like the, whats the next step that would be like huge in your opinion? For the LGBT center or
for the women’s center anything like that?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: So like a wish list?
VANPORTFLIET: Yeah!
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well a big wish list would be if I could wish away, I would say that I wish we would
have a social justice center and our other centers were under it, including disabilities support services
which is not under the brella right now, there, in a different unit, but, the purpose of the social justice
center would be to not look at just one ‘ism’,not just look at racism, but look at sexism and to see, to
educate our students about the dependency of these dynamics on one another to move forward. And
also to, we have students who are mostly white and mostly come from at least a middle class
background, so they come with lots of privilege and I would really love to educate the entire student
body about that privilege so that they can look at other people more realistically. And also understand
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�that with privilege comes responsibility. so that would be my big view. But then specifically for our
center, bigger budget, more staff, *laughing* that’s my Christmas wish list. so that we could do all the
things that we want to do.
VANPORTFLIET: okay, so we talked about proposition 8 in our class, so how, it was passed and then
overturned, and brought back, so how do you think Michigan did on that, I think, I think you already
touched on, it just wasn’t there, it kinda dropped the ball, and what do you think, can happen to kind of
help push that along, you know?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Mmhm, Well marriage equality certainly is, at the top of the list of items that the
LGBT, what we call Gay Inc. which is the human rights campaign, and the national gay and lesbian task
force what they are moving forward, and I have some problems with that, so I’ll say that and then I’ll go
back to it, but as far as marriage, yes, Michigan was an epic fail. It passed, we passed a constitutional
amendment to ban marriage equality in our state. I’m happy to say I didn’t vote for it even before I was
so out. and I think there are over 30 states that have those kinds of constitutional amendments, but we
are seeing state by state, it’s flipping, so that’s helpful. There are 8 states and the District Colombia right
now that marriage equality, I just can’t wait for 2 more flip and I can say 20% of the states in the nation
have marriage equality, so, and that doesn’t count states that allow civil unions, so and let me just clarify
that that’s still separate but not equal because even our own household member benefits on our
university, our unmarried partners get the same health coverage, but they don’t pay the same for it,
because they have to pay for their coverage with post-tax dollars. Where as married couples pay with
pre-tax dollars so they actually end up spending about 25% less if you’re married. So if Michigan were to
flip marriage equality it would still be inequitable for gay and lesbian couples because at the federal
level we have the defensive marriage act, which Obama currently is not enforcing, but it’s, thats a
federal mandate, it’s not something that Grand Valley can control at all. The 1,138 benefits that come
with marriage still do not, are not enjoyed by the LGBTQ community. Even in states where marriage
equality has passed.
VANPORTFLIET: Do you think that, that marriage equality, is like the nber one thing that we should be
pushing for, like or, theres another issue we kind of touched on in class, with gays being able to adopt
and having that two parent adoption, and that was, especially powerful for me because one of my
friends has two lesbian Moms, and so I’m kinda close to that and we watched a video on it and the
person who was kind of thrown into that situation, was totally against it and was very close-minded I
thought. and they, they even showed her with different situations with kids and adoption centers and
rundown with really no place to go and then they showed this happy family with two dads, and she was
still like no, that’s not right. And so I was just wondering which is that the nber one, er like what’s the
nber one thing that if you again had like a wish, that you would pass.
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well, I mean realistically, as we did strategic planning for the state wide organization
we did focus groups all around the state to see what constitutions wanted and they all wanted marriage
equality. But that can’t be the first thing that you go for, especially in this state so getting the antibullying bill passed had to be the first thing, so we got that passed, and it was not as we liked it but, but
we got it passed. and part of the reason that it did pass was because it served Michigan well not to be
the leftover state that is not passing it. So, right now we’re working on our Elliot Larson civil rights act to
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�see if we can expand that. And that will give immediate relief to families, and that will directly translate
to the lived experience of LGBT people to have protections and housing and on the job. And for straight
people as well because you can be fired for being perceived as being gay, right. So, so working on that so
as far as second parent adoption will probably be next after that, because those are some of the things
that people can relate to, research shows that the happiest healthiest kids grow up with two Moms. You
know, what can you say, you have two Moms your doing pretty well, and research backs it up, so I think
that on the road to marriage equality there are these other markers that can really impact quality of life
for LGBT people are also more obtainable and that’s how we are working it in the state.
Justin to group: Okay, and questions?
NIEMIEC: Not really, it was more focused on like your son but I mean, we were talking about something
different.
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well, I am happy to go back to that. Do you have anything in particular.
VANPORTFLIET: Yeah, go ahead and ask it!
NIEMIEC: Okay I was just wondering when you said that he was bullied in school and like when he came
out to you, did you feel you guys got closer or did he like kind of back away, or like went kind of went on
with that, did your relationship grow?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah, I really feel, I don’t feel like we got closer, because he’s also you know 16 years
old and a guy and was needing to be like separating from his Mom a bit too. I think we’ve always been
close certainly he became closer with his sister and his sister-in-law who’s like a sister to him, yeah, but
it didn’t impact our relationship negatively in any way.
NIEMIEC: Okay, and like did your other, like your parents or like any other family members, did, how did
they react, or did they see it all along, like, like how you did, did they see the signs, or, you know?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: That was a disaster...
NIEMIEC: It was?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well my Mom had passed away a few years earlier, which was for me sort of a
cosmic crisis like, like why isn’t she here? Because she would have just not missed a beat and she and Ari
were just like this. but on the paternal side that family is very, very, very religious and so that’s their
lens of seeing the world and they did not have any space for Ari being gay…Period. So, it was a difficult
time. We actually wrote them a letter so that they could sort of process, not in the moment with us, but
just sort of like reorganize and then come to us and have a conversation, and try to like do damage
control a bit. And, we said we know you have this way of understanding it, but there is other
information too, we really want to go on this journey with you duh-duh-duh-duh-dah. And I thought for
sure that you know I was keeping the living room clean thinking that they were gonna be showing up to
have the conversation. 8 months of silence. And then at the end of 8 months, Ari’s grandpa sent a letter
that was so scathing. Saying that Ari’s being gay was the biggest disappointment of his entire life. And he
copied everyone in the family. And so that just gave, opened the flood gates for the other people to
Page
10
�send their own letters, and I got 7 page, single spaced, margin-less typed letters from the family saying
that we had turned our children over to Satan, and that, you know all of this really extreme, extreme
stuff. So, its pretty hard to heal from that. You know, it’s pretty hard to move forward from that. I feel
like, and this is a mom genetic coding thing, I feel like I can never get passed that. That that was so
hurtful and so unnecessary. That I just really can’t get passed that. But Ari is more generous, and he has
a relationship with those family members now. you know he could not bring his partner to their house
but I think some of them have even started asking him if he has a boyfriend. I know that his grandma has
started asking him. His grandfather never will. So, you know it has been, 7 years now, so.
VANPORTFLIET: It’s a work in progress…
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah.
NIEMIEC: Is there still tension between you and the…
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I am divorced now (laughter). But you know between my in-laws, no. (She
paused) I know that they still love Ari. And I know that in their worldview they were doing the best they
can. I still think that it was unnecessary and hearts that will never heal so I just have a really hard time
understanding why someone would put that thing in writing and then send it to everybody else. But I
know also that they feel the same way about the work that I have done. That my being public about Ari’s
coming out has injured them in the same ways. That they have felt like I have publicly shamed the family
in doing that. So it depends on which lens you work through. There were times when I felt like I was
losing my mind, that I would actually drive to Detroit to Triangle Foundation which was a State-wide
organization at the time now it’s Equality Michigan. And just say, I know I am doing the right thing, but
I’ve got nothing here. I’ve got no support. I just need to hear that I’m doing the right thing. Supporting
my son, you know, how crazy is that. But yeah, I think I’m hopeful that the cousins, some of the cousins,
some of the cousins that my children will be able to have relationships with them. Some of them they
won’t I know because they also are really pulling this hard line.
VANPORTFLIET: What do you think the big problem is between the religious community, and the LGBT
center? Because, I am religious but I don’t see it so cut and dry as some other like obviously some of
those people who wrote those letters. I don’t believe that at all. So what do you think? Do you think that
they are exclusive? Like in some parts or like I believe that they don’t have to be, but what’s kinda your
take on that.
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I left out the part where my ex-husband was a minister and he lost his minister
license because he supported Ari. But you know, I have spent a lot of time thinking about it. And I think
that people build their self-esteem based on their religious beliefs that for a lot of people it’s a journey,
like I said my journey out of a difficult situation was really education. To try to figure out, oh my, gosh,
how does this work? But for some people its finding religion and building a whole identity around that.
And that’s how they are okay in the world. So when you start to mess with that, it becomes a situation
where there’s a lot at stake. And if you pull this brick out of the wall, that’s a big brick. Because if they
are feeling that homosexuality is a sin, which is their bi-line you know. Then if you pull that brick out of
the wall and they change that, what else do they have to question? That’s a lot of work and that’s scary.
Page
11
�So I came to understand, this is my way that I made sense of it, is that Ari’s coming out, and then my
being so vocal about inequality, created a lot on anxiety in people especially in who held these
fundamental beliefs. And they wanted me to not make them anxious. And if I did not stop making them
anxious, then there was a consequence to that. So I understand the anxiety and the organization of a
personality. In that kind of way where there’s just a lot at stake, in their being okay. And I’m sure other
people see it differently and disagree with me on that.
VANPORTFLIET: Well we are almost done with the hour so is there one thing you wanna leave with, it
could be about the LGBT community or something you think is a big problem that we still need to
overcome, maybe something we haven’t touched on yet?
SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I talked about how I would love for all students to be able to have a chance to
examine their own privilege and to be able to come to terms with that. So that they could understand
how they could leverage that in the future to create change. And so, and that just reminds me of this
quote by Anias Nin and it says, we see the world not as it is, but as we are. We see people not as they
are but as we are. I think I probably just butchered that but the point being that we, unless we do work
to make it explicit, we only see through our own lens. And it takes some discomfort and some really
being intentional to be able to see things from a point of view from a marginalized community. Or from
the very complex identities that some of our students carry, like being black, disabled, and lesbian. Being
able to see through that lens. And I would hope that we would focus on giving students an opportunity
to challenge themselves in that way.
VANPORTFLIET: Well thank you very much. I know for me it’s been very enlightening and it’s been very
nice to talk to you.
END OF INTERVIEW
Page
12
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a049e8e9144046e155a8d3276b6dc17e.mp3
bfa891d04f60aacf97e21248be6169d5
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Personal narratives
Oral histories
African Americans--Personal narratives
Gays--Personal narratives
Lesbians--Personal narratives
Bisexual people--Personal narratives
Transgender people--Personal narratives
Veterans--Personal narratives
Women--Personal narratives
People with disabilities--Personal narratives
Muslims--United States--Personal narratives
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Homophobia
Discrimination
Islamophobia
Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012.
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Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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2017-05-02
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eng
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GV248-01
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1930-2011
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GV248-01_Seguin-Beighley_Colette
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Colette Seguin Beighley audio interview and transcript, interview 2
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Seguin Beighley, Colette
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Deork, John
Niemiec, Kaylee
Vanportfliet, Justin
Anderson, Leah
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Colette Seguin-Beighley was born in Oakland, California. She attended California State University, Haworth. She is a liscensed counsoler in California and Michigan. She discusses her activism with the Grand Valley State University LGBT Resource Center.
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Women--Personal narratives
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project
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2012-03-16
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/94d79f02423858a8258b19408d9aa3a0.pdf
7da630bdf7af9b47c15fb2e7ae3c1f3b
PDF Text
Text
Speaking Out
Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories
Interviewee: Debra Sawinski
Interviewers: Brian Schreur, Laura Sawinski, Marcus Bell and Robin Moening
Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 11/28/2011
Biography and Description
Debra Sawinski discusses how she started the first all girls track team at her high school and the
struggles that came along with in.
Transcript
LAURA: Oral history project. We are here on November 28, 2011. I am Laura Sawinski and I am here with
Debra Bussing Sawinski to talk about her involvement in the formation of the track team at Fruitport
High School in Fruitport, Michigan. First I need you to sign our consent form. This states that you agree
to participate in the interview and that you agree to have your name published and if not you can state
that now.
DEBRA: I agree.
LAURA: It also says that you understand the interview will take approximately 2 hours and that you can
withdrawal from the project whenever you feel necessary without any prejudice. You also agree that
upon completion of the interview the recording and consent of that recorded belongs to Grand Valley
State University. You understand that any restrictions to use of portions of the interview indicated by
me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript. You understand that upon completion of this
interview and signing this release the recordings, photographs and one copy of the transcript will be
kept in Grand Valley State University library special collections in Allendale, Michigan. So here you can
wish to remain anonymous or to be identified by name.
DEBRA: Identified by name. My initials?
LAURA: Yes. To start this interview and to find out your experiences with starting the track team and
how you got to that point.. .11 you could tell us about your childhood, what it was like growing up, and
just the background of you as a child.
DEBRA: Well I grew up in the country and our neighborhood was kind of unique. My grandfather had
owned all the land and he divided it up so all ofmy neighbors were also related, my aunts and uncles,
cousins and I.. .wejust did everything together and maybe that’s where I got.. .to the point where I liked
running because we had to run in between each other’s houses all the time to- - because we had no
Page 1
�tel—in our house we had no telephone so in order to use the telephone we ran to somebody else’s
house.
LAURA: And explain your family, how many siblings you had or what it was like growing up being so
close to your family or extended family.
DEBRA: I have four sisters, two of them are older two of them are younger. Probably the two older ones
we did more things together because we’re closer in age. And I. ..being that close to our relatives we
had a shared feel that we did a lot of different things, activities. It was just a good neighborhood.
Everybody watched out for everybody else and we did lots of things together, we-- that’s who we played
with, had baseball fields set up, did all kinds of things together. So it was a really—just a really neat
experience growing up.
LAURA: And how long did you guys live in the same proximity was it until you graduated high school or
did some move along the way?
DEBRA: Well some ofmy older cousins moved away but we all basically lived here and all of us went to
the same high school and graduated from the same high school.
LAURA: And where did you attend school throughout your whole year, where did you start with your
first year until the year you graduated?
DEBRA: Went to Fruitport Elementary, Fruitport Middle School, and Fruitport High School.
LAURA: And what was your experience in general? Did you like school, did you enjoy going and what
part did you enjoy the most?
DEBRA: For the most part I liked school; it was a good experience all the way through. Of course there
are parts that you don’t like more than others.. .let’s see. I didn’t like Spanish very well but I did really
well in social studies. I took every history class, every geography class that there was available so, I liked
English classes. I have—I was accepted into honors lit which was a really fun class and had a really good
time with that and... For the most part I did very well in school and liked it.
LAURA: What kind of treatment did you receive during your school years? Did you feel that you were
treated fairly well or were some kids treated better than others? Or with you being a female did that
ever effect how you were treated or did you feel like it was pretty equal across the board?
DEBRA: I think some kids were treated better than others, just their personalities or whatever it may
have been. I know that I had to ride the bus and I know even our bus driver had her favorites and—
LAURA: Were you one of them?
DEBRA: No. I was not. Usually it was the boys that were a favorite, only certain ones. And. . .but for the
most part I feel I was treated fairly. I don’t remember ever being.. .not.. .because I was a girl not being
treated fairly. I think that across the board it was pretty equal.
Page 2
�LAURA: And what year were you when you decided or thought that you would want to start a girl’s track
team?
DEBRA: Senior year of high school.
LAURA: And why did you decide that you wanted to start that track team even though in Fruitport there
hadn’t been a girl’s track team?
DEBRA: There were about four of us seniors who all liked some portion of track whether it was running
or shot-put or whatever it may have been. We all liked that part. In gym class we did very well in those
areas. And when we were seniors, and especially one of the girls was--had a boyfriend who was on the
guy’s track team and we thought it would be fun to have a girl’s track team and a good experience for
us.
LAURA: Do you have a main motivation for starting the team or just was it something you guys enjoyed
and thought why not?
DEBRA: We thought it was time that the girls had a track team. Other schools had girl’s track teams and
Fruitport had never had one. So we thought it was time that they had one and if we were going to have
anything to do with it we had to do it quickly because we were all seniors and.. .so we just started to
move forward in that just kind of talking about it among ourselves and then figuring out what to do to
get one going.
LAURA: So is there a reason why you waited until you were a senior to start the formation of n a track
team?
DEBRA: I think we just didn’t, we didn’t think that we could do it, that most the sports werem started by
either a faculty member or the need to have it and I don’t think that any of us thought that we would—
could or would be able to do what we did in starting the team.
LAURA: Who was the most influential you think in helping you start the team. Like you said there was
faculty that normally had started it was there a faculty member that had helped you? Or anyone in
particular? Or did you feel like you as a collective group kind of had to head it up and convince others
that you guys needed a track team?
DEBRA: I think that there were the four of us and we went to the athletic director at that time was Dale
Levondowski and he told us that there was no way that we were going to have a girl’s track team that
year. So at that point we went to the guys coach, the boy’s track team coach, and we asked him ifwe
could run with the boy’s team and he said yes.
LAURA: Were there other girls sports at that time or what options did girls have?
DEBRA: There were I believe girls softball, and cheerleading, and I. . . girls basketballLAURA: So why—
DEBRA: Oh swimming and gymnastics.
Page 3
�LAURA: So why did the athletic director say no way to a track team for girls?
DEBRA: First of all he said that we wouldn’t be able to get a coach, we didn’t have the schedule set up,
there was no money for uniforms, there.. . it would be a problem with bus transportation. He gave us all
the--all the things that involved mostly I believe it was money. That all the things were rooted in that,
beside the fact that. . .1 think it would have been more work for him and he just didn’t feel like that-that he didn’t want to do that at that time.
LAURA: So with the guys track coach was his idea that yea just come run with us or was he influential or
did he try to help you form a team of your own or did he just figure you can just join us?
DEBRA: Well he said that if we couldn’t have a team of our own that we could run with the guys and
because it was a non-contact sport that would have been allowed.
LAURA: So when you went to high school you couldn’t play, like a girl couldn’t play football?
DEBRA: No.
LAURA: Or wrestling?
DEBRA: No, because it was a—it could only be a non-contact sport. And so he said we could run at—
come and run with the guys and—and he didn’t cut us any slack for being girls.
LAURA: Should he have?
DEBRA: No, but I mean we—we had started out a little later with practice than the guys, and I just
remember our first—our first practice with the guys it was a five and a half mile run, and some of us
made it. So—and it was really interesting because the coach, the coaches, there were two of them, Mike
Thompson was the head coach, they drove the car and followed us, we ran on the roads in Fruitport. No,
he was, I believe the guys coaches were very, very supportive of us having a girls team. Thought we
deserved one, should have one, and that’s why they said that they would go along with us joining the
team and supporting us in any way that they could so that we would be able to get a team eventually if
it wasn’t that year then hopefully the next year.
LAURA: And so you were allowed to practice with them. Were you allowed to run in meets with them, or
did you get a team before the meets occurred?
DEBRA: We ran with them in practice and worked with them and—and I have to say all the guys were
very supportive of us and gave us helpful hints and different things. They were still telling us that we
could not have a girl’s track team. So this meet came up, it was an invitational, actually it was held at
Grand Valley, the indoor track, and we rode with the guys on the bus and we got to the—the track and
there happened to be a few other schools that had girls track teams that came too. And I remember that
we had to wait outside the locker rooms until the boys were all done in the locker rooms before they’d
let us go in and get changed for the meet. And then we ran in the meet with the guys. They did have
separate heats for the girls but we were able to run in the meet and it was after that, that the
Page 4
�administration of the school and especially Mr. Levondowski, figured that we were serious about having
a girls track team.
LAURA: So at that invitational how many guys would you say were there?
DEBRA: Overall.., all the schools?
LAURA: Yes.
DEBRA: Hundreds.. .hundreds.
LAURA: And how many girls?
DEBRA: Oh less than a hundred, maybe fifty. Of all the teams together because we went into one locker
room but there were hun—there were multiple schools and so there were hundreds of boys there to
run.
LAURA: And at that particular invitational did you feel like there was one school who had way more girls
than others or was it kind of a few on each team?
DEBRA: There were a couple of schools that fielded a whole team just about for girls. A few others had a
pretty good amount. Our school we probably at that one, we—there were, at that point probably five or
six from Fruitport that went.
LAURA: So as you guys came up with this idea, how did you, the group of you so there was five of you?
DEBRA: There was four of us that started out.
LAURA: Four of you. Were you friends prior or how did you kind of come together to say hey wouldn’t it
be cool to have a track team?
DEBRA: We were all friends and we were in this one class together and we sat together—we had to go
the library a lot and we ended up always at the same table and talking amongst ourselves I think that
that’s really where the formation really started to take place just because we were talking hey we would
like to be able to do the—we would like to be able to run and to have a team.
LAURA: With the administration did the athletic director ever say hey we have a few sports for girls can’t
you just join one of them? Why do you have to make your own team?
DEBRA: No. I don’t remember him ever saying that and we found out later that actually there was an
equal rights amendment or something along that line that legally they couldn’t tell us no you can’t
have—we won’t give you a team but it was the consensus that they would do everything for us not to
have a team. Telling us there was no money, there was nothing but ifwe would have taken it to court
and even though we didn’t know about it we didn’t know that there was that—that equal rights thing.
We had no idea at that time because it had just passed and now of course they even have more rights,
the girls do to play sports. Back then it was something new and I think they used the fact of the financial
part of it to—to stop us from having a team.
Page 5
�LAURA: And do you think for him or others who opposed you that was the main thing? Not that they
thought girls shouldn’t or couldn’t run but just the money?
DEBRA: I think money was the main thing and then trying to put it all together in a short amount of time
would have been—was more work.
LAURA: And how long did you have? What was your time frame? Just your senior year?
DEBRA: Yes. We—well we started early spring asking for a team and of course it’s a spring sport so had
to be done fast.
LAURA: So what was your first step in forming the team? Was your first step going to the athletic
director?
DEBRA: Yes.
LAURA: And did you have anything prepared for him or did you just go in there with these ideas you had
talked about?
DEBRA: I think we just went in with our ideas and asking ifwe could get a team.
LAURA: And his first response was?
DEBRA: No way. It wasn’t going to happen this year. And that’s when we said—actually the words were
used ok we’ll run with the guys.
LAURA: And what did he say?
DEBRA: He goes—he shook his shoulders and said ok. But I don’t think that he thought that we were
going to stick it out and I think that that’s—he wasn’t going to go to all the work when he didn’t think
that we would—we would stick it out for the season.
LAURA: So he didn’t feel like you were actually committed to this.
DEBRA: Yea.
LAURA: So how did you feel when you couldn’t have a team when he told you no and you had to run
with the guys? Did that anger you or were you like well, we’ll just do this for now? Or did that motivate
you more?
DEBRA: Yes. We were more determined than ever to prove that we were going to run with the guys and
that we were going to make it work, that Fruitport was going to have a girl’s track team. And at that
point I think that’s when we enlisted more girls we had a. . . like a little petition so to speak ofhow
many—we went up and asked girls if they would like to run, if there was a team would they be
interested in running and we did that.
LAURA: Was there a number that you had to get to form a team?
Page 6
�DEBRA: No, but the more we had the better because there were a lot of events and that we knew that
ten of us it would be hard to have a team and be able to even have enough people for the events so we
knew we had to get more than that.
LAURA: So at your first meet how many did you have?
DEBRA: The invitational when we went to Grand Valley? Or at the first—
LAURA: When you had a girl’s team.
DEBRA: We probably had, well I want to say around twenty. We ended up for the season having 22 all
together that stuck it out. We doubled up and made sure that we had somebody in every event.
LAURA: So you were able to cover every event?
DEBRA: Yes.
LAURA: When you first started running with the guys were any of the girls better than the guys?
DEBRA: Yes.
LAURA: Any how did the guys feel about that?
DEBRA: They ma—they would tease us. Saying that we were fast or whatever and back then that, that
meant that you weren’t always a nice girl but they, they, though they were really good. They really
pushed us and wanted us to excel and so I don’t think any of them were very.. .oh down us or anything
and if we beat them they thought that was pretty good.
LAURA: So you ran in the invitational at Grand Valley with the guys but in separate heats. Were there
any other meets that you ran with the guys? Were you ever combined like for relays or were they
always separate even though you were at the same meet?
DEBRA: It was always separate. We never run a combined guy run one leg and a girl we never did that,
no they were completely separate.
LAURA: How did you do that with only five girls then?
DEBRA: Because by the time the first meet, dual meet, came we—we had a team.
LAURA: But at Grand Valley you just ran...?
DEBRA: We ran what we could. There was a—a relay team and then a couple of other events that we
were able to run in.
LAURA: So you just weren’t able to run in everything?
DEBRA: Right.
Page 7
�LAURA: And how would you say your support from your family was kind of from the beginning of the
first formation of the idea and then when the team actually formed and after that. What would you say
the progression of support from your family and other friends who weren’t on the track team?
DEBRA: I would say our support from our friends was good and they came out to cheer us on. Me
personally I did not have much support from my family. I had to go to someone else—actually to get to a
practice a lot of times if the practice wasn’t right after school if it was a day when school wasn’t on
because we did often have Saturday practices, I would have to run to my friends house that lived on the
next road over and hitch a ride with her into school with her because I wasn’t able to use my parents
car. The only one from my family who ever saw me run in the—in track was my youngest—younger
sister Penny. Neither my mom nor my dad ever saw me run. My mom wasn’t very supportive of it at all.
She thought it was foolish and didn’t know why a girl would want to run track. My dad was a little bit
better about it. He—he worked at night so he couldn’t come to the meets because he had, was either at
work or going to sleep. But he did ask me about it and so each time we had a meet I would tell him
about my race and how well I did and that and but as far as the rest of it—my one older sister Denise
probably would have done very well if there had been a track team when she was in school because she
could always beat me no matter how much I practiced or anything in track, she was, she was very very
good and would have done well and I always have wished there had been a team for her because I think
that that would have been a very neat thing for her so other than that I don’t—a lot ofmy other friends
especially Barb Vennema who was one of the main ones in starting the team, her—her mom was really
supportive of us and she was at most of the meets and really encouraged us on, and like I said a lot ofmy
friends were really supportive of it.
LAURA: And you said that your mom wasn’t necessarily supportive or thought it was foolish. Can you
describe kind of her thoughts on a girl and what her role should be?
DEBRA: We should go to school and do the work that we need to do and come home and do the chores
that she gave us to do. And I still had to all ofmy work at home after I got done with practice whether—
and part of that was cleaning up the supper work or whatever even if I hadn’t eaten even if I had missed
the meal. It was my job to do the dishes and clean up the supper table and that’s what I had to do no
matter if I had just come from a meet and were later or whatever it was. I just had to get all ofmy work
done and—and that’s how it was. I mean she just didn’t— she just thought it was all foolishness and
couldn’t understand why anyone would want to run around a track. So, she—she did not grow up with
the idea that girls should be involved in sports or any of that so she just couldn’t figure out why one of
her daughters would want to be interested in that.
LAURA: Did your older sisters play any sports?
DEBRA: No.
LAURA: So you were the first to be in a sport?
DEBRA: Yes. I was rebellious.
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�LAURA: Airight. And do you feel like your dad would have possibly gone to more if he wasn’t working at
night? Or do you think that he kind of distanced himself as well thinking that it’s not necessary?
DEBRA: No, I think he would have come because he always asked me about them and always had me
run through—it was like running my race for the second time and telling him how we did and all ofthat.
He made sure that he always asked me and I felt that he would have come if he would have been able
to. My one sister did play the clarinet in the band and he always went to her concerts when he could, so
I knew that he would have come if he would have been able to.
LAURA: And what did your dad do for a job?
DEBRA: He drove a truck.
LAURA: So he was gone at night?
DEBRA: Yes. He—he—actually he was gone a lot and so sometimes he would work until late in the
evening—and then he would. . .he would get up, he’d have to sleep a few hours and then he got up and
would have to be on the road again by midnight or a little bit before. So it was at that point, it was
impossible for him to go to a meet.
LAURA: And did your mom have a job?
DEBRA: No, she was the housewife.
LAURA: So do think that in any way that disappointed you or how did you just feel like this is what you
wanted to do so you would do it or—were you wishing for more support from your family or how did
you feel that that experience with your family not being 100% supportive, how do you feel like that
affected you, if any?
DEBRA: Well it didn’t change my mind I still wanted to be on the track team, to have a track team. So it
didn’t change my mind at all. It would have made me feel probably better to know that there was more
support and that they were behind me 100% in doing it but it didn’t change my mind I still wanted to do
it.
LAURA: And with your friends you mentioned one in particular, Barb, who was close with you and
helped start the team with you. Do you feel like you guys had a special bond or you guys created a
bigger and better friendship because of being involved in something like this?
DEBRA: Yes and—and the fact that we were together every day in practice and running and had a
common goal together especially those that were seniors and that were on the team. There were four
of us that started it, Barb Vennema, Beth Cummings, and Pam Straight and each of us did a different
event we didn’t even run the same events or anything. And—but yet there was always that common
goal and we were always there to help each other and I think that that made our friendship stronger,
and especially for Barb and I. We just, it was just one of the best experiences that we had that we
could—and, and making a difference and starting something new and knowing that maybe the next year
they would even do better the girls track team, than what we were—we were able to do.
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�LAURA: With you four was it a coincidence that you did not run the same thing?
DEBRA: I think... No.
LAURA: Or based on different abifities it just kind of happened that you were not all milers
DEBRA: Right I think it was our different abilities and also we started with guys and figuring out the
events we were going to have, barb was the miler, and Beth ran shot put or did shot put and ran a
couple of long distance events, Ann ran hurdles why we don’t know she just liked them, and I did middle
distance the 880 and 440 which today is the 800 meter and 400 meter so it was just what we thought
we were good at and what we like of course it helped that barbs boyfriend was a miler on the guys track
team so she trained a lot with him so maybe that’s why she chose that one.
LAURA: Did any of you hold any records in the races that you ran in the short time you were there?
DEBRA: Well we all set records and they were all broken the next year but no for mine in the 880 I held
the record for two years and I think that there was one other one but I’m not sure but I know that one
but the goal was to have somebody break our record because in all actuality we were not very good and
so the goal was to each year to improve and that is what happened.
LAURA: And in forming this team and you necessarily did not have the support from the administration
because they didn’t want to put the time and money into it how did you go about organizing the meets
once you had a team established with different schools was that something that you were responsible
for?
DEBRA: No what happened is that when, I believe that when the administration the athletic director in
particular saw that we were serious and that we were going to run with the guys team whether we had
a girls team or not things started to take place I remember being called into his office and being told that
because they saw that we were going to run with the guys that they had found somebody who would
coach and actually it was going to be a team they did the girls swim team it was Linda and Roger
Harriman.. . linda would be the head coach for the girls track team and roger would assist her and we
thought it was funny because we knew that they were interested in it from the very beginning but the
administration kept saying no we couldn’t have one so it was within a matter of a couple of weeks we
had a coach we had new uniforms the schedule was set up busses were arranged and for the rest of the
season it wasn’t like we had to set up the meets ourselves or anything Mr. Lovendowski had to go ahead
and do that and we just always marveled that they were adamant that we weren’t going to have a team
and then that was put together within a couple of weeks and I mean all of the things that needed to be
done the meets he called other schools and got the meets because almost all of the other schools that
the guys ran against had girl track teams so it was just the matter of us having another bus maybe to go
to that meet there were a couple of meets that we went to that the guys didn’t go to that they set up
separately so that we would feel enough events to if it was at all possible to qualify for states or
conference but for the most part it was all done by Mr. Lovendowski once I think they saw the we were
really serious and there were girls that were going to come out for the team.
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�LAURA: So did you feel that he wasn’t against you personally he just didn’t want to put time and effort
into something that wasn’t going to happen?
DEBRA: Right I don’t think he was ever against us personally he just said it wasn’t it wouldn’t happen
because of the timing the fmancial reasons and just the work that had to go into it Ijust don’t think he
thought it was going to be worth it.
LAURA: So you didn’t get uniforms until the track team was officially started correct?
DEBRA: Correct.
LAURA: So what did you wear before you had an official girl’s team?
DEBRA: We wore some old basketball girls basketball teams uniforms which if anything about sports
they are completely different from track uniforms so they were a little awkward but we were happy to
have them we used them.
LAURA: So you felt since other schools had already had a girls team there was no opposition from other
schools and it was fairly easy to collaborate with them to get a team going and do you feel they were
supportive of you guys getting a team as well?
DEBRA: Yes some of the schools were really glad because they had girls teams and it made it a lot easier
if they could run it in conjunction at the same day with the boys teams because they would run one race
for the guys and then we would run a race as girls or whatever it was and then in the 2 mile and the mile
they would run together and just have different timers but it worked out well and a lot of the schools
were glad that we had started the team.
LAURA: What were some of the schools that you ran against?
DEBRA: Spring Lake, Muskegon, Mona shores, kellogsville, I can’t even think of all of them that we ran
against.
LAURA: Are they fairly the same conference that Fruitport is still currently in?
DEBRA: Yes well a lot of it has changed since then because they have changed the boundaries and the
rules and all of that but for the most part it would be the same o we ran against orchard view Fremont
Fremont is where we held the conference was held that year at Fremont Reese puffer
LAURA: And the other girls track teams did they have uniforms at first did you ever feel inadequate
when you would go against established teams or were you just ready to run?
DEBRA: I don’t know if the word inadequate would be the word we felt kind of a little bit awkward
because they weren’t track teams but we were so excited to be running that we really didn’t care if we
had to wear are own shirts t-shirts or whatever we would of done that but at least we looked like a team
because we were all in a uniform even though they weren’t the correct ones.
LAURA: In terms of running shoes what did you wear for shoes just regular tennis shoes?
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�DEBRA: I did there were a couple of girls that we had that were sprinters that got a hold of some cleats
but I ran with tennis shoes just regular tennis shoes because that’s all I had at the time a lot of us did we
ran with tennis shoes but because we knew that our shoes weighed differently what we would do is run
with weights at practice and then they felt lighter when we got to the meets.
LAURA: And how did you figure that out was that something you guys came up with or did the guys
help?
DEBRA: The guys helped because they all had a lot of them had their track cleats and things and we
knew that there were other shoes out there because we were interested in track so we learned things
and read things and got information so we knew there were other things out there but a lot of us didn’t
have extra money for that and of course the school didn’t provide for any of that either.
LAURA: So when you started the team you had 4 girls and when you had an official girls team how many
did you have?
DEBRA: About 22.
LAURA: And how long did that take you to get or did you find that it was hard to or were girls eager to
join the track team?
DEBRA: I think they were eager to join the track team there were a couple we would of liked to of had
but their fathers said no that they couldn’t run track was not for girls so we had but for the most part we
had ones that were really interested and really committed to it we got juniors and sophomores on the
team so that we knew it would carry through to the next year we had a couple in fact our one sprinter
actually qualified for conference and regional’s that year even and she was very good and the next year
went on to win other things but we just went around asking as many as we could plus others had
different commitments so the next year it was even bigger but that’s what we ended up with was 22 for
the year.
LAURA: Do you know approximately how many today run at Fruitport?
DEBRA: No I don’t know for sure the team is a lot bigger they fill a couple 2 to 3 for each event and so
the team is a lot bigger and has done a lot better in fact a couple of years after I was there they had
quite a few that even qualified for conference and states and that so it’s grown over the years.
LAURA: Did either one of your younger sisters run in the track team?
DEBRA: No they didn’t my next younger sister probably would of but I don’t know that she really liked
running she did powder puff football and that kind of thing and then my youngest sister had rheumatoid
arthritis and was never able to run very well so she did not run on the track team either.
LAURA: Is that something you would of liked for them to do or were you just happy to do it yourself?
DEBRA: Well I was happy to do it myself but I would of liked to have see one of them do it I tried to
encourage my sister penny to go out for the team but it just didn’t work out for her to do that.
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�MOM: In our year on the track team was a harder year to the coach they had set up Linda Herrmann on
our sports we had a sports banquet with the team and that night her daughter hit her head and had a
brain aneurysm and she died so our last couple of regular meets plus the conference regional’s were
with a different coach just one of the teachers he was math teacher Mr. Carison just stepped in and also
one of the counselors Mr. Broderick stepped in to help the team going with us as a coach and that so it
made the season a little bit more difficult and we were very determined after that because we wanted
to not only do well for ourselves but to honor Linda and the effort that she had put out as our coach and
losing her daughter and not being able to finish the season with us.
LAURA: Was she ever the coach again?
DEBRA: No her daughter’s death hit her pretty hard and so she didn’t come back as the swim coach or
the track coach.
LAURA: Do you know who then took over?
DEBRA: Nope I don’t.
LAURA: Do you feel like after you guys had your season that the rest of the school body and the
administration were behind you and backed you?
DEBRA: Yea I think that they did we got a lot of good comments from people staff members other
students who think it was something that students saw that even though they were told no that things
could still happen and I think that they were all very supportive and very glad that we did that and proud
that there were some students that took action on their own we had a number of guys later that kept
saying that there should be a plaque put up in the school for us because we went against the opposition
and even though at the time we didn’t think it was any big deal but I guess other people thought it was
and girls that ran afterwards were glad that we did that because even though the school would
eventually I believe had a girls track team because that would have been what they did for sports I don’t
know how many years it would of been before they would of done that.
LAURA: So how do you think your impact on others was or what do you think your impact was in terms
of those who ran track as well as those who did not do you feel like you guys had an impact on them?
DEBRA: You mean on other students.
LAURA: Yes.
DEBRA: Yes I think we had an impact girls saw that they could have a sport even though if it wasn’t
established at that time since then of course there is volleyball and all kinds of sports for girls and fruit
port girls have done very well I think that it made a difference and kids believing that they could have a
voice in the school even though they were told at first no and that if they showed detennination and
stuck with something things could change.
LAURA: Overall do you feel like you were satisfied with the outcome of what you four started?
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�DEBRA: Yes overall we were glad the next year our records were broken and the next year more records
were broken and as we could see that girls became more interested in track and ones that could excel at
it because track is a team sport but also its an individual sport so girls that maybe weren’t really good in
a gymnastic setting or even swim team were able to go out on the track and run around and they could
do really well or they could high jump or even shot put or whatever it was it was a whole different kind
of sport then gymnastics or swim team and so they could do something that maybe they could excel at.
LAURA: So even though you were satisfied with the outcome what would you say were some of the
greatest obstacles that you faced in developing the track team?
DEBRA: Probably the greatest obstacle was just proving to those in leadership that we were going to
stick with it and fmancially the opposition there being told that there was no money and we never were
told where the money came from when they finally decided to let us have the team we all of a sudden
the money was there so I think all along the money was there they just didn’t want to use it for that
because they didn’t think that we were going to stick with it and so I think that was our greatest
opposition was the administration it wasn’t the boys on the team it wasn’t the coaches themselves the
guys coaches were great about it and so it wasn’t them I think it was the administration was our greatest
opposition and using the funds for that.
LAURA: In terms of the community or media did you get any media coverage or how do you feel the
community felt what you guys were doing was right or wrong did you feel that you got support from
them?
DEBRA: I think for the most part we did get support from the community I know that there were a
couple articles in the local newspaper in Fruitport and then also in the school newspaper of course you
are going to have opposition from those who weren’t supportive of girls sports in the first place and like
I said there were a couple girls their dads wouldn’t let them run and that kind of thing but overall the
community support was good and I know that in the next years that followed there was a lot of support
for the girls track team.
LAURA: Did you feel like the team had a following if you went to different meets were people there to
watch and support you?
DEBRA: There were a few parents that did come regularly to the meets there were some of our friends
who came and usually were there to support us but for the mostp it was if there were people at the
meets they were there to watch the guys and even though they supported the girls we knew they
weren’t there just to see us there were a couple on the guys team that were very good and they had a
lot of fans you could say but I don’t think we really even thought about it or even cared who was there
to watch us we were there to run and that’s what we wanted to do.
LAURA: Were you involved in any other extracurricular at Fruitport or did track take up most of your
time?
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�DEBRA: I worked on the school newspaper and then also the yearbook although at that time the school
newspaper was a class so I did that during the class time yearbook took up so time for me once I became
involved in track that took up a lot ofmy time.
LAURA: And in track or the other activities that you did, did you feel like that helped you as a person or
in leadership roles do you think that did it take you out of your comfort zone or were you very
comfortable in taking the role of a leader?
DEBRA: Before that track team I didn’t know that I could lead I think it did take me out of my comfort
zone for the most part I was pretty quiet in school until I had to go to the athletic director and talk to
him about the track team and I remember that I somehow became the spokesman and when he needed
something or wanted to talk to somebody I got called to his office about the team and how that
happened I’m not even sure but I believe that the experience with the track team gave me a lot more
confidence as an individual and helped me in going off to school and thinldng that I could take on things
that I hadn’t taken on before and after school and working at a public school I was able to coach
assistant coach for one year and coach the next year the girls track team which was a new venture for
Comstock Park also at that time the girls track team was a new thing for them and that was pretty neat
to get to see these girls trying to make the team work in their school to and working with them so I think
the experience of starting a girls track team at Fruitport was life changing for me.
LAURA: As the coach at Comstock Park did you share with them what you had done and did you feel
they were more inspired by what you had done to inspire them?
DEBRA: I think so I was able to talk with a lot of girls and say you got to keep trying you got to keep
pushing and even though they were new and actually for being a new team they had quite a few girls
that came out for the team and then of course talking to them because unless you have a vast amount
of talent in the school the first year as a team in any sport will be a struggle and just fmding out where
you fit in and different things like that so I think I was able to talk to the girls at Comstock Park because
there team was new and encouraging them that it wasn’t always going to be like that they would have
each year improve and more girls would be interested and more girls would come out and so then you
can specialize in your events and you don’t have to run or fill in so that you have enough to fill the
events and that’s what I think our first year at Fruitport because we didn’t have as many and we had to
fill in and maybe we couldn’t focus on just one event like some of the schools that you run against girls
would only run one event I remember I would have to run against girls in the 440 that were fresh
coming out to run the 440 and I’d already run an 880 and so I never came out on my 440 fresh and not
already used up a lot of energy for that so I had to and that makes a difference and that part I could
encourage others and that say keep working at it and it will happen.
LAURA: Are you glad that you were in the place you were at Fruitport to start the team or does a part of
you wish that you could have specialized in an event.. .had it already been established?
DEBRA: Sometimes I wish I would have been able to specialize, I would have liked to have seen what I
could have done. But yet, as I said, the whole experience of starting a team, working administration,
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�standing up for something I really thought should be was life changing and I wouldn’t have wanted to
change that even if I could have focused on one event.
LAURA: Although it was life changing for you did you think about the impact that it would have on future
generations of girls pretty much forever?
DEBRA: Not a whole lot. We knew that, the next year the girls were going to be able to have a team and
it would be kind of neat to see. And it wasn’t until I was coaching and we went to a regional meet,
where I saw girls from Fruitport running and it was kind of neat to see girls from Fruitport in Fruitport
uniforms.. .by that time they had new uniforms.. .and just be able to see them run and win events and
stuff and think “I was part of that, I had a part in letting them run.”
LAURA: Do you think that they knew what you guys had done for them? Do you think that necessarily
girls think about that?
DEBRA: I think the couple years after we graduated I think they thought about it. But after that, no.
Because the stories die down and they don’t know you as much. I think those that were freshmen when
we were seniors in running, they still remembered it when they got to be seniors. But after that no. Even
though there were, like I said, those guys kept saying that a plaque needed to be put up.
LAURA: Is there?
DEBRA: No. That was never done.
LAURA: So there’s nothing a Fruitport High School to show that you guys started the team?
DEBRA: No, just in the archives that will say when the team started and the records that go back. And I
guess the athletic director will have the archives or the yearbooks are in the libraries. And that’s pretty
all that, except for our memories. (laughs)
LAURA: Do you have any advice that you would give to others that face adversity?
DEBRA: I guess my advice would be, first determine is what you’re doing or what your faith, is it worth
standing up for. And if you believe that it is worth standing up for that, and that it will make an impact
later than, to stay with it. And eventually things will change. They may not always change to the way you
want them to or exactly the way you pictured it. But things will change and to just stay with it.
LAURA: What do you think the key factors were for you personally to keep with it? What drove you to
stick with it and what determined you to start this team?
DEBRA: Well I always liked running. I thought I was good at it. And I wanted to win a first place (laughs), I
guess that motivated me a lot to want to do that. But also for the fact that I guess.. .because we wanted
a team... guys had team, and why couldn’t girls have a track team in school. And just that they told us
“No, we couldn’t have one”, and that we just wanted to show people that we could. And that kept us
going and when the guys coach told us we could run with them and the fact that when we ran with guys
they were very supportive of us and kept us along with that.
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�LAURA: So do you think without the support of the guys it would have been a lot harder?
DEBRA: Yes! Yes. Because there was...I mean just little things that they would tell us. How to keep
hydrated. How to.. .you know something, if we had pains, how to stretch. How to do just things that
they were always.. .that they got told by the coaches and had been working at it. They had already had a
team for years. And just little things that they did. I’ll never forget.. .a funny thing. They told us to have
orange slices but oranges go fast. And so one kid told us have a grapefruit. He always brought a
grapefruit and that’s what we started doing (laughs). And grapefruits lasted through the whole track
meet.
LAURA: Do you think that the difference in the community and how close knit some people were, do you
think that affected their support or did they just want to see you succeed regardless whether you were a
close knit community?
DEBRA: I think they just wanted us to succeed. I don’t think at that time we were really.. .1 don’t know if
close knitted community Fruitport is.. .buy yet I think there would be support for the team. It was just
the right time.
LAURA: So after you graduated where did you.. .you coached at Comstock Park and where did you go
after that?
DEBRA: Well I went to school to Grand Rapids School of the Bible in New Zeek. And there I ran.. .which
was interesting they had a cross country team for the guys but did not for the girls. And there was a
couple of us that did run with the guys at a couple of the cross country meets. To me that was just a
usual thing at the point. And we didn’t get a whole lot of support there but we still did it. One of the girls
happened to be from the Ludington area Scotville, who came from the school with a tremendously big
girls school track team. And she was this All-State champion. And her and I hooked up together and we
ran cross country with the guys there and ran with the school of Bible Music. And it was after that the..
.1 was working at Comstock Park Public School. After that, got married and moved away. Continued to
run for a number of years and finally let it go. But always been supportive of track teams. Had a
daughter, have a daughter who ran track and was always real proud of that. Felt that in some ways it
was just cool to watch my daughter get to run on a team and not have to question whether she would
be able to or not, it’s an accepted thing now for girls. And that’s a cool thing to watch.
LAURA: Do you think even if it wasn’t socially acceptable with your experience would you be supportive
of your daughter even though your mom wasn’t fully supportive of you?
DEBRA: I think so I... We all have our individual taste and even though it might be something that I might
not be fully liking but that she would like it I think that I would be supportive for her.
LAURA: Did your mom ever later have more support for you or after you started the team, did she show
more support or was she still distant?
DEBRA: I would say no she’s never been supportive of it. In fact I talked to her not too long ago about it.
She just always brushes it off as, well she has other things to do. And she flatly told me that she didn’t
think girls should have been involved in that. So that’s the way it stands and probably always will be.
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�LAURA: Do you think with that experience that you were more supportive of your children or did you try
to attend more activities they did?
DEBRA: Yes, I never wanted one ofmy children to ever say that my parents never saw me do something.
So I made the determination at that point that I would go to what my children were involved in and
watch them, whether it was something I really liked or not. I don’t always understand some of the
games but I was there to support them no matter what because I did not ever want them to look up in
the stands and wonder what it would be like to have mom and dad there. I never wanted them to
wonder that. I wanted them to know that I was supportive of them and I would be there for them.
LAURA: So, although track was a big part of your life, you said that you think that it gave you the
confidence to do things that helped you in other areas of like and if so, what?
DEBRA: I think it did give me help in other areas of my life, it gave me confidence that I didn’t know that
I had. Because I could stand up for what I believed in and for what I wanted. I could voice my opinion.
And in what areas.. .1 just think an overall in life. I mean even just going to job interviews later on, and
just meeting different people and talking to different people. It gave me the confidence to know that I
was capable of doing things I hadn’t tried before. And it helped me want to try to do other things that I
hadn’t before.
LAURA: With your children did you ever share your story of starting the track team in hopes that they
would have the confidence to stand up what they believed in?
DEBRA: I did share it, I don’t know if they ever did something with it (laughs). But yeah I did share it in
hoping that they would try something new, to go out there and maybe it’s not always easy, life isn’t
always easy. And just to, to try it. Even though there is opposition sometimes that it’s not the norm
thing.
LAURA: Have you been back to Fruitport since you graduated?
DEBRA: I have not. Oh, I take that back. I did come back to Fruitport, there was one meet that I did go to
while I was still in the Grand Rapids area and after that I moved away. So I haven’t been back since then.
But I did come back and try to keep track of it. Especially when my sister was in school, my sister Penny
and my sister Jennifer, I tried to keep track of what was going on and how the track meet was or how
the track team was doing. But to come back for a track team after that for a track meet, I haven’t.
LAURA: Did you ever think that you would stay in Fruitport and coach the track team or wasn’t that
some that you necessarily wanted to do?
DEBRA: Never thought about it, never thought about coming back and coaching there or even.. .1 left
shortly after I graduated from high school and really have not lived in the area since. So I really never
thought about coming back.
LAURA: Do you have any ties to the Fruitport area still?
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�DEBRA: Yes I have my sister. In fact now that you.. .my sister’s youngest daughter is running track and
did last year in middle school. And she has another year in middle school and hopefully she’ll stick with
track and go on to run for the high school. That would be pretty neat to see?
LAURA: Does she know that you started the track team?
DEBRA: I told her! (laughs). I said “Kelsey”. I told her that little story and hopefully she’ll remember that.
And I know that my sister Penny remembers it, she was the one who came and watched the few times
when she could. Staying after school, she had to stay after school and come over to the track meet. So
hopefully, Kelsey will continue to run and maybe I’ll get to see her run in a high school meet.
LAURA: Did you feel that because of what you accomplished that people or your sister in particular
looked up to you?
DEBRA: Penny, to a certain extent, looked up to me and that always make you feel good when someone
looks up to you. But I think that the one thing that made a difference for me in thinking about it, is
because my sister who, next oldest to me Denise, was always very good at running and everything. And I
remember her always saying, “I wish there would have been a team for me, I wish I could have done
what you did.” And that was always kind of neat because a lot of times when you’re the younger, you
don’t hear that for the older siblings very much. And it was neat to have Penny, one of the younger ones
look up to me, but it was kind of neat to have an older sister say that.
LAURA: Did you feel the impact of people being inspired by you or were you just happy with yourself
and not really worried what others thought, positively or negatively?
DEBRA: I don’t think I really thought about how other people were going to see it. I was just happy that I
could run and participate in the meets. I really didn’t think about what other people were thinking about
it.
LAURA: And in terms of accomplishments did you receive any varsity letters or medals?
DEBRA: I received a varsity letter and numerals also. Did not receive any medals. I never was able to
place first in any of the events that I ran. I was close, I was only a tenth of a second against Muskegon.
So even though that would have been nice, it was just the fact I was able to run and 4. come that close.
So yeah got my varsity letter and numerals. And I hadn’t been able to do that in any other thing because
I wasn’t involved in any other sport so it was kind of neat to be able to accomplish that.
LAURA: And was there a specific leader or.. • was there one person that was the point person or the..
.kind of the head of the track team besides the coach or did the four starters kind of take the role?
DEBRA: I think it was mostly Barb, Venimu, and I that were the leaders. Pam was kind of a quiet girl, so
she didn’t really take that much. And Beth, she was kind of crazy (laughs) and she just wasn’t very
organized or anything. So I think it was mostly Barb and myself that became the point people or the
spokespeople when there was an issue or something that needed to be handled, the athletic director
would ask for one of us. Or when Linda.. .the Haremans, when her daughter died. It was Mr. Carlson and
Mr. Broderick who would ask us for information, or who was running what or whatever it was. So that
Page
19
�we helped a lot of that. We even ran... one of the meets was on Senior Skip Day and we were told that
the seniors didn’t have to show up. But every one of the seniors showed up to run. And that kind of cool
because they didn’t have to, but they did anyway.
LAURA: Did you receive any special recognition for being one of the two main leaders?
DEBRA: Not really.. .1 got larger numerals (laughs) from the athletic director because he said we had
helped out with the team so much. But other than that, no. Just at the sports banquet. It was
mentioned it was the first year for the team for those who had started it.
LAURA: And...
DEBRA: I don’t think.
LAURA: Are you still close or are you still friends with any of the girls that you first ran with on the track
team?
DEBRA: With Barb. Pam I haven’t seen since high school. Beth Cummings I saw at our 20th class reunion,
she is now a doctor out east at one of the big hospital back there, so she doesn’t come back much. And
the fact that I moved away and really have not lived around here since high school made a big factor,
(inaudible). There are a couple, Sherry Lenard ran on the team and I still have contact with her. I think
that’s about it. I’ve seen a couple of them, but not to have stayed real close in touch with any of them.
LAURA: And do you feel that girls today are treated equally in terms of sports?
DEBRA: No, I don’t think girls are treated equally. I think boys sports will always get, to a certain extent
more recognition, more money, more support. Especially football and boys basketball. Even though girls
a lot of times excel at that their sports, I don’t think it’s equal. And I don’t know why that is. But, in any
school system that I’ve been involved with or that my kids have been in, I’ve never felt that girls sports
are equal to the boys sports, in any way, financially or supportive by the parents or any of that. So I just
think it, no I don’t think it’s equal.
LAURA: And how many... do you have sons?
DEBRA: Yes.
LAURA: How many?
DEBRA: Two... and one daughter.
LAURA: And when watching them did you, felt the same that girls’ sports didn’t get as much recognition
as boys and as a parent, does that bother you?
DEBRA: I don’t think girls’ sports get as much recognition, even if they win state championships in their
division, in their sports. I don’t think their recognized as much as the guys are. I don’t think the attention
is focused on girls’ sports. I don’t think that financially the money goes towards girls sports. One school
we were in they setup a whole weight room and everything. They told us it was for the football team,
even though it had been used for a lot of different sports. It was mainly put there for the boys’ football
Page
20
�team. Which was a lot of money and yes, football team players could use it. But I thought it was very
unequal to the girls because so much money is put in the boys’ sports and not into girls. I just wonder
what it would be like if more money was put into girls sports. The coaches were scrutinized like they are
for the boys, especially for football and basketball and that kind of thing.
LAURA: So even though you have come so far. ..help Fruitport come far and girls sports as a whole, are
you at all disappointed where girls sports are versus boys or do you feel that girls are in a better place
than what they used to be?
DEBRA: They’ve made a whole lot progress. They’re in a better place than they used to be. Could they be
in a better place? Yeah, I think so. Fruitport has a fantastic girls’ volleyball team now. The girls track is
better and bigger than it ever was. But I think it could do better, but it doesn’t have the financial backing
that boys’ sports does.
LAURA: And in closing and further advice or any comments you would like to share?
DEBRA: I don’t think so. Just that be supportive of those sports, and if you see something that’s being
unfairly done, speak up. Let’s see ifwe can make them equal.
LAURA: Airight, thank you. And that concludes our oral history with Debra Bussing Sawinski on
November 28th, 2011.
END OF INTERVIEW
Page
21
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e21dfc76d2c673cc683308457c6476cd.mp3
ce760d719b0e6dd83eb853d19bd1b14d
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Personal narratives
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African Americans--Personal narratives
Gays--Personal narratives
Lesbians--Personal narratives
Bisexual people--Personal narratives
Transgender people--Personal narratives
Veterans--Personal narratives
Women--Personal narratives
People with disabilities--Personal narratives
Muslims--United States--Personal narratives
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Homophobia
Discrimination
Islamophobia
Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.)
Description
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Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012.
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Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01)
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2017-05-02
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1930-2011
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Debra Sawinski audio interview and transcript
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Sawinski, Debra
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Schreur, Brian
Sawinski, Laura
Bell, Marcus
Moeing, Robin
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Debra Sawinski discusses how she started the first all girls track team at her high school and the struggles that came along with in.
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Women--Personal narratives
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project
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2011-11-28
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca178fb931566331b28f89a05db3d655.pdf
8771be6ce4360bf82edf83fc8a54ac2e
PDF Text
Text
Speaking Out
Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
IntervieweOMOH: Esiloza Omoh
Interviewers: Briana Burke
Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
DatOMOH: 9/30/2011
Biography and Description
Esiloza Omoh was born in Legos, Nigeria, raised in Chicago, Illinois, and attended Grand Valley State
University. She graduated with a degree in Biomedical Science. She discusses her experiences with
discrimination because of the color of her skin.
Transcript
BURKE: We are here today, Friday September 30th, with Esiloza Omoh at Allendale, Michigan and here
to talk about your experiences with civil rights in western Michigan. To start off could you please give us
some basic information about yourself; where you are from and your family and some background?
OMOH: Well, my name is Esiloza but I usually go by Esi. I am twenty-three years old and I recently
graduated from Grand Valley with a Biomedical Science major. I was originally born in Legos Nigeria, and
my family immigrated to the United States about thirteen years ago. And we lived in Chicago for about
eight or nine years before I moved to Grand Rapids to go to school.
BURKE: OK. So what about your family? Tell us about your family, your parents, siblings...
OMOH: I have two brothers and two sisters and my mom was in Nigeria and my father recently passed
away in February, so he’s no longer with us but he was also living in Nigeria. I have two older sisters, one
older brother and one little brother. I have family, they live, I have two siblings that live in Chicago, one
in Memphis, Tennessee and another one in Dekaib, Illinois. And they’re pretty much done with school
except for my little brother who’s in college in Northern Illinois. So I’m the only one in Grand Rapids
Michigan.
BURKE: OK. So what about your ancestors and your community involvement?
OMOH: Would you like me to talk about the ancestors first?
BURKE: Sure. Yeah.
OMOH: Oh, well I don’t really know too much about my ancestors. I do know that I have a lot of aunts
and uncles. My father’s, my paternal grandfather married four wives...
Page 1
�BURKE: Wow.
OMOH: And my maternal grandfather married five wives? So I have a lot of extended family... (laughs)...
yea
BURKE: (laughs) Wow.
OMOH: And we’re all related through my grandfather so yea
BURKE: OK.
OMOH: I don’t think we would call his wives step-mothers because they really weren’t step mothers
they were just other wives.
BURKE: Right.
OMOH: So, yea. My maternal grandparents died before I was born and my father’s father died when I
was about two and my father’s mother passed away when I was about six or seven. So, I don’t really
know a lot about my grandparents or extended family and then at a young age I moved to America so I
was removed from them I have no family in this country except for my siblings. So, I’m further away
from them. But it was a good chance to meet them like I said in February. My father passed away and I
had to go back to Nigeria for the burial and I was meeting cousins and aunts and uncles that I have never
meet in my entire live before and I believe I have about eighty or ninety uncles and aunts and I’m not
even gonna’ talk about the cousins .. . (laughs)... I don’t even know and its crazy cuz’ we all look alike
(laughs) and its weird because it’s like I’ve never seen you before in my life and I’ve never heard about
you and this big large group of people are family...
BURKE: Oh, wow!
OMOH: So... gotten’ used to that I don’t remember half of their names but we still keep in touch with
the Facebook ... (laughs) ... it’s a good social media type of tool to use.
BURKE: Right, Yea. (laughs)
OMOH: But, yeah, apart from like my immediate history like I knew where I grew up... my father was
the first child to go to school period.
BURKE: Wow.
OMOH: In his family, so he grew up in the village and um his father and mother were slightly, not
slightly, but mostly illiterate. So he said that he was also the first child of all of the wives. So he was kind
of like a father when his father passed away. So he had to go to school, he had to move, he left the
village to go to the city to go to school because you have a better education there. And he went on to go
get his college degree, his masters, his doctorate everything, he has so many different degrees in law
and finance and everything. And um, since he became the father because Nigeria back in the day and
still kind of right now is mostly male dominated
BURKE: OK..
Page 2
�OMOH: So... when his father passed away he became the “husband” to the wives, so if anything they
had that needed to get done they had to ask his permission. So he became in charge of sending his
brothers and sisters to schools and his immediate brothers and sisters sent his half brothers and sisters
to schools and be sure that they didn’t get into trouble and try and support them in what they wanting.
So it was kind of... kind of weird because he came, he had his own kids which me and my siblings but
then had twenty or thirty other kids also.
BURKE: Right
OMOH: Actually, I met an aunt that’s younger than me
(laugh)
OMOH: (laugh) So I was like.., interesting! So he, he has been taking care of a lot of stuff. So.
BURKE: Wow.
OMOH: Don’t really know too much more about his side of the family, I know more about my mom’s
side of the family because they were more active in my life. And I have a lot of cousins and aunts there
on her side also that I met more of when I went to Nigeria in February. It’s kind of over welcoming
because it’s not like the customary “Oh, I have five six cousins or maybe ten cousins...” Just on both
sides it’s like there’s sixty cousins here and then one-hundred and fifty here. Cuz’ each, each wife like
say has like five or six kids,
BURKE: Right.
OMOH: And my mom was telling me back in the day that they tried to have a lot of kids so that they
have more kids working and helping you around the house or the farm or whatever. So each, imagine,
each child having six kids and then one of those six going to make six more...
BURKE: Mhm
OMOH: It’s a lot. Actually we only have, my mom only has five kids and that’s kind of small compared to
her other brothers and sisters (laugh) So
BURKE: (Laugh) wow
OMOH: Not to many Nigerians these days have big nuclear family. Most of them keep like two three,
maybe four kids. But kind of like I was learning the history here, down south mostly like it wasn’t
uncommon for someone to have twelve, thirteen kids. I was like wow that’s a lot because usually
because of lack of health care back in the day it wasn’t uncommon for a child to day in child birth or
maybe three, four years old it would die because of some sickness...
BURKE: Right.
OMOH: So, everyone’s just poppin’ out kids (laugh) helped them out. So, just trying to keep my answers
straight here, what was the other question you asked?
Page 3
�BURKE: About the community involvement
OMOH: You mean like my volunteer experience?
BURKE: Yeah, anything!
OMOH: Well, I try to stay, whatever community I’m in, I try to stay very involved. Like for example, I
currently tutor math to kids at the Gerald Ford Job Court.
BURKE: OK.
OMOH: I don’t know if you’re familiar with that... its a center for at risk youth between ages of sixteen
to twenty-four, where they usually go there basically if they’ve dropped out of school or they’re trying
to reorganize their lives. So we help them get their GED or get their H.S. credits. Usually these kids are,
like I said dropped out, or been gang related activity or been bused for drugs or something and it is kind
of like a fresh start for them to get to live on the facilities so they don’t have to worry about housing
because some of them might have been homeless or been in some situations where they don’t want to
go back. So which actually made them go in the streets in the first place, so they don’t have to worry
about food or housing. They don’t have to worry about paying for GED, pre-testing, or ACT classes so
they get their GED, high school credit and also help them apply for college and also get ajob. So we also
have training modules, like training to get a CNA positions or different trades. We also have a trade’s
school. So I volunteer there, and I also work at Cross Roads High School, which is an alternative high
school where kids also similar to the kids at Gerald Ford Job Court. Except these kids haven’t been
kicked out of high school they’ve just been kicked out of their community high school because they got
into trouble, violations, got into fight or were at risk or injuring themselves or other students. So they
are trying to get back the credits so they can graduate on time or just graduate period, because some of
them they’re still attached to getting a GED versus a high school degree. So we’re helping them with
that and the after school program is from 2:30 to 5:45, I’d say 5:45, so that after they get from school
we provide them with another snack because some kids don’t have food at home. So we give them that,
and then we have some kind of activity to make them involved and show them that you can still have
fun without any violence or illegal activities. hat word am I looking for? Incorporate to their activities
that they do. And then we give them free time from them to either play basketball or we bring out the
wii system or something so that we can also reinforce so that the healthy living aspect to where you
have to have some healthy physical activity so you have a healthy youth. Excuse me, so after that we
also give them a school bus system to get back home so they don’t have to get on the city bus where
they might meet somebody that they might get into a fight with. Again because these kids, we try to get
them out of their atmosphere of violence and from that community of people they might know of
people that might make them go back to their habits. And what else do I do... I used to do a lot more
when I was at Grand Valley because I had a lot more time but now I try to be limiting my volunteer
activities to a minimum so I can actually get a job. So apart from that, that’s basically what I do... Oh
Yea! I have one more thing actually, I might become affiliated with west Michigan non-profit something..
.collation for a non-racist environment. Where we are basically going to be pushing different initiatives
for students and community members to become familiar with the effects of racism, poverty,
homelessness and all of that and seeing how we can come together as a community strengthening
Page 4
�ourselves and help the less fortunate. So... there’s a lot of words in the title, I’m gonna get it right one
day. But that’s what I’m looking into becoming involved with, actually I had an interview for that today
so, I try to stay involved in my community.
BURKE: Very cool, so now do you want to tell us about your actually move to the United States? Like
what was that like for you and your family?
OMOH: Oh, yea I could do that. I can’t even explain it, we went from being overwhelmed, and to culture
shocked to a whole different sensations it smelt different here. I grew up around a lot of trees so we had
fresh air and then coming into Chicago you could smell the congestion. We have European people in
Nigeria so I didn’t really come across someone who wasn’t black. So either most people were black or
brown or some variation of that skin tone. So coming here where I saw white, I saw Asian I saw Hispanic
and a whole bunch I was like ‘oh my gosh people look so different!” I used to go like, I came here in the
fifth grade, so I used to touch peoples hair a lot which in America I learned there is personal space
(laugh)
OMOH: You can’t just touch people hair! Cuz I’ve never touched anyone else’s hair that wasn’t like mine.
I thought it was amazing when I first saw somebody with green eyes. It was kind of scary because I
couldn’t believe somebody had colored eyes! (laugh) But I mean in Nigeria we have cable we weren’t
like back woods people. I’ve seen on TV that people have blonde hair but I’ve never in real life seen the
green and blue eyes except for like brown eyes. So that was amazing! And then I finally got to eat pizza!
So when I was younger we had cartoon network in Nigeria and I used to wish I had this magic ring
(giggle) where, cuz you have the Chucky Cheese commercials, I would just rub and pizza would appear!
(laugh) So
(lots of laughing!)
OMOH: So my first experience with American food, when we got off the plane my Uncle picked us up,
and we went to McDonalds. And my brother had chicken nuggets, which he thought, was like foods
from the Gods (laugh) and then I had pizza! It took me awhile to get used to it, I wasn’t expecting it to be
as wet, with the sauce!
BURKE: Right!
OMOH: Because on TV I saw like oh yea pizza cheesy but I didn’t expect the sauce! So I got used to that,
but the food its, well for a lot of time I wouldn’t eat chicken here because I don’t know if you guys grew
up on a farm or seen what an actual chicken looks like and a farm not like genetically enhanced, a
chicken is very smaller than the chicken in Mejier! So I was just thinking this chicken is nasty like on
drugs! Cuz it wasn’t like chicken in Nigeria! (laughter from both) And then eggs are like white! I grew up
eating brown eggs! So I was like “oh my gosh!” The chicken and the eggs are different in America! So I
didn’t wanna’ eat that. The water tasted so different, because in Nigeria we can’t just
drink water out of the faucet. Ya know, like we have to get water from the tap, boil it and let it cool
down then scoop the top because all the sediments sink to the bottom so you don’t get sick. So you take
the scoop from top and put it in the refrigerator. So I had a ball drinking water from the tap! (laughter)
Page 5
�It’s just the little things people take for granted. And then we came like around August, and then two
months later it started snowing. I had never seen snow in my entire life! So (laughter) grown adults, me,
my mom, my dad, brothers and sisters we just went outside and stood in the snow and had like our
tongues out, the snows dripping and people are walking outside Chicago and was like what’s wrong with
these people? Little did they know we had never seen snow before! So that’s one of the experiences I
had in America, one of the few things that I do cherish. what else shocked me? Before coming to
America I had never been on a plane before.
BURKE: Really?
OMOH: So we had one of the longest flights ever so I boarded and the plane’s flight was like sixteen
hours. And so we finally came here and potato chips, never had potato chips before. when we talk
about chips, at least in my family; we refer to potato’s that have been cut up, like homemade fries. But
never had potato chips so experiencing the whole cookies and all those junk food because we weren’t
really big on junk food. Especially not in my village at least, we had candy but the candy we had was like
one hundred times less sugary (laughter) then the candy here. Like one jolly rancher is like three packs
of candy in the ones I grew up with. So getting sugar, my first ever sugar rush was amazing! (laughter)
What else did I go through? like I said the culture shock , in reference to culture shock they always talk
about like for an example stereotypical white person teaching them to deal with the black person . So
you might go to college, you might see more Native Americans or Hispanics but they never really talk
about the reverse. like they always take for granted just because you’re a minority you’re “diversified.”
And that’s not true at all! Because I went through a culture shock, the biggest culture shock of my life
when I came to America! Seeing so many different languages, so many different cultures, so many
people that look so different! Because I feel that and culture is not about race; it’s about who you are
what you have to bring, it’s about music, it’s about culture, it’s about your perspective and I had a very
ignorant perspective on life. I knew based on TV that there was American’s, there were Europeans that
looked different but based on TV I had never been to America before. I always saw, I always thought
that everybody in America was rich, everybody was white, mostly, and that everybody was happy. And
then my reference to black American’s was that they were always fighting amongst each other, only
wanted to do rap and didn’t want anything to do with good things. And I came from that by watching
TV! because we got CNN in Nigeria and we get cable so I see all these movies and a typical movie black
people are in usually for a while they had all those movies in the nineties that came out about that it
was always, always the black high school student and here comes the white teacher in to save the
horrible kids and so they can go to school and try to help them read, that’s all the movies that we had!
And on TV we saw that black people was always wanting to shoot and blood related movies and then
you turned on MTV and always saw black people rapping so that’s what our view was. And it was very
ignorant. I never knew the first black person that I met, the first black American that I met I asked him. It
was very ignorant and I offended a lot of people. But I mean, I tried to apologize like I’m sorry I just
came to America I don’t know what’s going on. And then the reverse thing happened. I used to feel
really bad for being ignorant but then I stopped because (laughter) America is ignorant too. I had people
tell me, not ask, tell me that, (I think I’ve told you this before) that I was a savage and that all my people
lived in caves and we walk around naked and we hunt our own food. And I said regardless, I don’t know
what part of Africa does that, I’m sure there’s some people who hunt their own foods but in Nigeria we
Page 6
�have supermarkets (laughter) and we have forks and knifes and we also live in houses. There some
people who don’t live under a house or an attached roofs, they might be poor they might live in an area
where they are using their resources. Like in the village our house was made from clay. the red sand
and then you mold that into brick and everything and used that. Why would you spend thousands, our
currency is not that, but why would you spend thousands or Nira to ship cement from the city or buy
cement blocks when you could just use your resources.
BURKE: Right.
OMOH: But, from an outsider looking in, because it’s not cement or plaster or whatever we are poor.
So I was told that and it was very, well really shocke me was my experience with black American and
white American’s. And I hate to always say black and white, I know there’s Hispanics and Asian decent
but my experience mostly is with black and white. And I was really shocked when my white friends, I had
to keep saying white, um do you prefer Caucasian?
BURKE: No you’re fine
OMOH: (laughter) Sorry, I don’t wanna offend anybody! (laughter) My experience with white people is
so much more better than my experience with black people. It was not until I attending college here that
I saw black people were “not as friendly.” I started learning about America’s history, black history, the
black on black crime, the hatred, and all the things going up to the typical black male the typical black
woman. And I had a lot of black people tell me to go back to Africa. That, they hated me because they
thought that I didn’t know their heritage so they hated me based on relationships with other Africans
who previously had said they weren’t real “blacks” because they didn’t know their mother land or
something like that. So, growing up in American I gravitated more towards the Hispanics, the Whites,
people from Asian descent, and really stayed away from black people until I came to high school. I had
no choice I grew up in an all-black neighborhood, and I was referred to as “African booty scratcher.” I
don’t even know what that means! Like you have to be African to scratch you’re booty!?
BURKE: (laughter) I don’t know! (laughter)
OMOH: I don’t understand! (laughter) So, I was referred to as “African booty scratcher” and other
derogatory words and they would hate me on site.
BURKE: (sorrowful) wow.
OMOH: Not just I don’t like you. This is hate, hatred. And they always say when you think about racism,
what do you think of? Do you think of white racist against blacks? They don’t really talk about black
racists against white or black racist against black. And its racism, it’s not a dislike when an African
doesn’t like an African American or vice versa. So, I never dealt with racism my entire life growing up in
Nigeria. And I’m sure, there’s there is rivalries between each clan or the most I ever dealt with in
Nigeria was like how the Christians and Muslims and the religious wars but at far as race it can’t really be
racism because we are all the same race! We just have different ethnicities.
BURKE: Right, OK.
Page 7
�OMOH: Coming to America, I’d never hear of anybody hating on site just based on your skin color. And I
had more racism from the black American’s and til this day I’ve still had more racism on black Americans
ever then on white Americans! And, I can’t understand that because reading in the textbooks or I have a
lot of African American classes and a lot of African American professors they talked to be about their
struggles and I learned that I’m very appreciative to learn about the history. But they never really touch
on it and what I would like to know more about is why black people might see African’s as a threat? But
yea that would be my experience with culture shock. I don’t know I kind of rambled on a little bit
(laughter)
BURKE: (polite) That’s OK. So do you… off of what you said do you ever remember family members or
any other friends being like specifically being discriminated against, like in your education, or
employment or socially? Something like that have an effect on you?
OMOH: Yeah. I mean I grew up in an all-black neighborhood and I saw, I saw it all. Especially, like, I grew
up on the south side of Chicago so I don’t think I sound like I’m from Chicago; I’ve adopted this generic
accent, American accent. I learned early on and also my family members did that if you do not speak
correct American English it can be seen as a weakness, as a form of you as a dark tally against your
intelligence. So, our family incorporated this accent, so that we could blend it sort of like a chameleon so
that we could blend in with the citizens so that we don’t stand out. And in an all-black neighborhood, if
you wanna pick up an accent it’s kind of like survival. If you sound like you’re not from around here they
are like whatch’ you doing over here? And then you get picked on and stuff like that and probably
robbed or whatever, just not to fit into stereotypes. So I picked up this accent, being like a black person I
was able to I don’t know the word, filterate, is it filterate? I don’t know it’s a word that sounds like that.
I’m trying to use big words (laughter). Into the black society around my neighborhood and if we go in
groups like for example the Gerinoso which is like a version of Meijer here kind of. If we go to a store or
like clothing store nobody would ask us for help. And if they did ask us if we actually needed help it was
very cut down like this is what it is and then leave us alone versus if a white person came in they’d be
like “oh are you ok are you ok” and everything. And then I had a white friend who thought it was funny
to play these jokes where she would walk in and she would get helped and I would walk in and I
wouldn’t get helped. And we both applied for ajob and I was more qualified than her and she get it and I
didn’t. And she’ll go into these interviews and not even dress up! Like don’t even have a suit on and I
would be like suited up and everything! Smelling good and everything! (laughter) Wouldn’t get the job.
And she thought it was funny and least to say we are not friends anymore (laughter). But I was, I’ve
experienced it, but it was kind of like experiencing what my friends were experiencing but it was like an
out of body experience because we somebody was being racist or having racial slurs thrown out, it was
like I knew it was bad but it didn’t hurt me because I didn’t grow up here! Versus my black friends would
get upset. So, like going to the supermarket and then the owners trail you around trying to make sure
you’re not stealing anything. I’ve been through all of that but I didn’t know what the meaning of it was,
as far as my friends getting mad and saying oh because I’m its because I’m black. I didn’t grow up
feeling like I had to prove myself in a white community. So, I don’t know I don’t think I am the best one
to answer that question because when I think about racism I only know racism in learning about it and
experiencing it, but not growing up in it. Does that make sense?
Page 8
�BURKE: Mhm.
OMOH: Yea. I don’t have like family or my grandparents tell me what they went through in the civil
rights movement I’m just for it and learning about it. So, sorry (laughter) Sorry I don’t know what else to
say.
BURKE: (laughter). It’s OK. So, how would you describe your own identity?
OMOH: Hmm. As what? As an American as a women? As a Nigerian?
BURKE: Anything. How you perceive yourself.
OMOH: Hmm. I perceive myself as (sigh) I would like to say strong black women. And when I say black I
don’t mean African, Jamaican, or black American, just black because that’s my race. I used to always say
that I was, I went from identifring as Nigerian, to African, to Black and vice versa, like it depends on how
I feel. I do wear, my personality on me so, I do, you’ll always see me with some African jewelry on or my
family we always grow up with bright colors so I’ll always have bright colors on me. Or something with
flowers! Something just like that’s how I express myself! But since I’ve been in American, I’ve felt like
the more years I spend in America, the less I can identified as being from African descent. I don’t really
have a lot of “African” friends, I didn’t; so I feel like I’m losing myself which is why I pressingly cut my
hair so that I can get back to my roots, and even that I felt was kind of like was making me a laughing
stock because why would I have to cut my hair off to feel Africa-, I should always feel African. So, being
born in one country and then growing up in another, messes with your head. And then I have another
friend I don’t think she’d prefer, I’m not even gonna’ say her name...
BURKE: That’s OK.
OMOH: But she was born in Ethiopia but she grew up here. And I’ve had multiple talks with her and I
highly respect her and so far she’s the only one that can understand me when I say that I identify as
being African feeling kind of loss. Because there is core values that you learn in your ancestry, who you
are that, you learn at a certain age. And I moved from Nigeria where I could attain that. So the only thing
that I know, the only thing that I can identify as African is my name, how I look cuz’ we do have a look
(laughter). It’s stereotypical! Nigerians you can’t really tell if they’re African because we can blend in
with the normal American blacks, but some Africans you can just look and they’re African! And I am so
jealous about that, because I want to be able to walk down the street and somebody look at me and say
look she’s African. I don’t, I look like a black American. So, growing up in another country, I just feel like
I’ve lost my roots, So, I don’t know yet how to identify. I identify as an adjective as strong, motivated,
and independent. But as far as my cultural definition, that is something I am striving to complete, within
myself. So (laughter) You’re laughing at me!
BURKE: (polite laughter) I am not laughing.
OMOH: So yea I don’t identify with that yet.
BURKE: OK. Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adulthood where you felt you
were treated differently because of your identity?
Page 9
�OMOH: (long sigh) Yea... I don’t wanna talk about them (laugh) ...
BURKE: If you don’t want to that’s OK.
OMOH: I mean I could... it’s just... growing up in American has been rough. So rough. It’s like I don’t fit in
with anywhere. I feel like I’m just this zombie... and to give you a heads up, it’s like to Americans,
Americans see me as black. They don’t say that in Nigeria. Black Americans see me as being African they
would never claim me as being a black American. But Nigerian, and most of my African friends don’t see
me as African because I’ve been here for thirteen years and I can turn off my accent, turn on and off; but
the strong edge of my accent has been lost because it’s been dulled down by the )American accent. So, I
am neither American, black American or African, to them. I will always know what I am but speaking in
my “accent” to like my Nigerian or African friends, they’ve said that multiple times they don’t even
consider me Nigerian or African because once you come to America, apparently you lose that. And
speaking in my accent I actually had a friend, a couple of friends tell me they couldn’t take me seriously
because they thought that I was faking my accent. I had to prove with birth records, to a couple of other
African friends that I was African. So just imagine that it’s like you aren’t American because you aren’t
born here, other people see you as black American, the black American’s or African Americans, I don’t
know which one to say because sometimes I’ve had friends who prefer to black and prefer to be African
American so I say black American, kind of in the middle (laugh). So the black Americans don’t see me as
being black and would never claim me as being black, and my African people don’t claim me as being
African. So in a situation where you say based on my identity, there’s a lot. But to sum it up it has just
been a learning experience and I feel that I would never want my child to go through what I’m going
through. I mean I’m very grateful for what the sacrifices my parents made so that I can have a very good
education and bright future. But sometimes I don’t know if it’s worth it, identifying as being African. I
remember one day, high school they have say culture day and you get to wear your countries clothing
or if you’re Irish you wear your Irish clothing or if your Hispanic, I know a lot of my Hispanic friends they
always wore their favorite soccer team jersey or Africans or the Asians we always wear our culture
guard. And I remember I was just so happy to finally wear that and be in a safe environment. Because
when I first came to America, in Nigeria we have what you call English clothes which is what you wear
like T-shirt and jeans and then you have your culture clothes wear
BURKE: Mhm.
OMOH: and I always like wearing my cultural clothes and when you wanna’ impress somebody you put
on your culture clothes, what I’m saying. So I wanted to impress my classmates! And I walked in full on
we call it Bubira above my head tied and I was like woo I’m about to do it looking good! And the silence
that met when I first came to class was like deafening. It was heartbreaking because I was so excited to
share my culture and it was like animosity. Somebody told me that I looked like I had stolen a tablecloth
and wrapped it around myself. (sigh) it was just rough. And then at such a young age being so proud of
who you are and then that kids in high school and elementary school they’re rough they’re mean but
that’s all so you think that everybody else is like that at such a young age being met with such a
negative response for showing who you are kind of just makes you not want to show the world who you
are anymore. So, I don’t know still trying to working on who I am (laughter). But I feel like I’m getting
better. I just wish that I didn’t have to go through that. I hope I answered your question (laughter).
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10
�BURKE: Yeah, yep! Were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the discrimination
in society?
OMOH: Oh yeah! Especially like my teachers, my professors, church members they always encourage
me especially when they knew that I wasn’t from America. They always believe that knowledge is power
and empowering yourself like even though I didn’t I don’t identify as being black in America I am going
to be judged as being black American because of my skin tone. So I need to know quick, very quickly the
history of black Americans. I remember I took a gen-ed course here, perspectives on African American
gender males, and they were talking about all these famous black people and the struggles of the civil
rights movement and I’m just like asking questions. And then they’re like yeah such and such and I’m
like. Everybody like and the professors picking on people like yeah what did this person do and I’m like
studied the book (laughter). And he got so upset with me! And oh, he made me cry.
BURKE: Awh.
OMOH: And he was like you should know you’re history, you’re in college and he was like, oh who’s that
guy, George Washington or somebody with the black panthers? I don’t know who these people are! This
is not my country this is not my history. And he was like you should know your history! Basically saying I
was a failure to the black people and I was just like I got so upset. One of my friends in the class she had
to stop me because I started crying because I was so upset! I was like this is not my culture! And he was
like what do you mean, you are a black American? No! I am Nigerian! I might not look like the
stereotypically African. But I took this class so that I could learn more about black Americans. And he
was just like, he was stunned. And I was like you have a doctorate degree but you are very ignorant. You
just assumed because I was black in this black American class I had to be an African American. So, that’s
only one of the few negative responses. But after he knew that he came around and he was very
patient with me and it was kind of, kind of embarrassing to only know that there was these people that
helped free some slaves. They really don’t tell you a lot in high school about civil rights movements and
all that slavery and expeditions and all that . So, he taught me and he was like , I’m sorry, well he never
said I’m sorry I take that back. (laughter) Well, I felt like he was sorry for judging that and I think the way
he apologized was to be patient with me and challenge me throughout the whole semester about like
learning about black history. Knowing about what racism is and that there’s not just white on black
there is black on white, there’s black on black there is Hispanic on white, Hispanic on black, racism is
racism! You define it to the very minimum; I didn’t know there were so many different definitions for
racism. Like racism it’s just not hating another race, it’s that feeling your race is superior to another one.
I never knew all that. So I learned about that and I had a lot of church members sit around and say back
in my day we couldn’t ride in the front of the bus and now ya’ll just don’t wanna’ sit in front of the bus .
Stuff like that so, I had a lot of people influential in my life and know about such things.
BURKE: Were there any articles or books films or speeches or anything that influenced your thinking
about race or ethnic issues?
OMOH: I wouldn’t say films or books would tribute to the way I look at race, more to my upbringing. I
didn’t grow up in a house of hate. I know people always say I didn’t grow up in a house of hate, my
people my parents are very tolerant. I just didn’t grow up like that, and I don’t even think people realize
Page
11
�off the bat what they are saying is racist. But derogatory because their parents are saying it to them and
that it’s OK. My parents brought me up to see people as individuals regardless of their skin color.
BURKE: Mhrn.
OMOH: So, I don’t know. I just feel like everybody is equal and I am going to dislike you if you give me a
reason to dislike you. I’m a very fun-loving person; it takes a lot for me not to like you. So I don’t know, a
lot of people, especially in America, which I don’t understand because I could understand were in a
country everybody looked alike for you to be racist against other people, but in American where nobody
looks alike and we have so many middle and in between races, why people hate you on site based on
your skin tone. I mean I’ve read a lot of books that , especially working as a resident assistant having
those conferences and seminars about equality and diversity and all that stuff, I’m sorry I don’t really.
Some people do need diversity training and nobody is above that (sigh) I don’t know I feel like it is a
problem where in a country you have to teach people to like each other. Why don’t we just like each
other? Are you telling me that if you first saw me and I had the stereotypically blond hair and blue eyes
you would like me versus brown hair, brown eyes? I don’t understand. So, I don’t know I don’t like
reading about race because you never find anything good about race. Like you always saw oh the culture
but if you Google racism or race you always see articles about whathappened in 60s 70s 80s or before
that and its really bad and I don’t really read books about racism. I’m sorry, this is very depressing. So
the way I feel about my communication with different races with how I grew up and how I was raised I
respect every person despite whichever age ethnicity or race they are.
BURKE: Has this changed since you moved to western Michigan specifically?
OMOH: No. But what has changed is um my tolerance level (laughter)
BURKE: OK.
OMOH: goodness. I’ve gone up and down in my tolerance level in dealing with people who are not as
open-minded. I still don’t understand why people refer to as like oh west Michigan. Apparently west
Michigan is like not as open-minded as east Michigan? I don’t know the difference; I grew up in Chicago
so I just do the Michigan thing that people usually do. I do know that something simple as even going to
Meijer and walking across the street I get looked at! Especially since I cut back up my hair. It’s not just
like oh there’s people walking across the street I’m bored so I’ll look. No I get stares of death! Especially,
from the older generation. And I still can’t get used to it I’ve had professors, you can always tell how
professors are going to react to you based on their age. And the ones that are mostly in their 40s or 50s
are like oh yea equal opportunity and like yea all equal opportunity! And once you start getting into
the57, 58 and 60s you start seeing, cuz if they’re like 60 or 70 they were probably around during the civil
rights movement and all that and those kind of ideals don’t just leave. And I’ve actually had to report
one professor!
BURKE: Really?
OMOH: Yea and he got investigated and found out that it wasn’t just me that he was being racist to.
Because I had a lot of professor and teachers in high school that I know didn’t like me and treated me
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12
�differently because of my race but that’s just character building. And I always felt like if I reported it.
nobody would do anything about it. But this one like I just couldn’t let go. Its one thing if you humiliate
me in private and down my intelligence but if you do it in front of a class of 70, 80 people, like biology
and science classes are huge! And it’s like only three black people in there and you pick on them and
make us look like fools and feel insignificant. I knew I had to say something when my friend she was also
in that class, she was black and the black people always sat in the front cuz we try and give the professor
no reason that we’re not smart by sitting in the back. We’d sit in the front and she came to me almost in
tears because she couldn’t look her professor in the eye. It was the same professor that I had. Every
time that he would look at her she would turn her face away because he made her that scared. All three
of us were scared to say anything to anybody because we didn’t want our grades to suffer.
BURKE: Mhm
OMOH: So... Gosh I think I might cry... I’m going to relax; it’s okay, sorry. Alright
BURKE: I finally worked up the nerve to go and report how we were being treated and nothing came of
it.
BURKE: Nothing?
OMOH: Nothing. He was investigated, they found out and said that he has some social disability because
he is always doing research and he hasn’t come in contact with minority students and that so he doesn’t
know how to deal with that. So basically what you’re telling me is schools like Grand Valley promote
racism as long as you’re over sixty years old. And what really got me so jaded and upset was the fact
that the supervisor told me that she cannot guarantee my safety.
BURKE: Wow
OMOH: I don’t have words, almost she said she couldn’t guarantee if I could be safe if I made it public,
cause they were investigating underneath the radar. And if I actually put my name on paper, she
couldn’t guarantee my safety, and she couldn’t guarantee that my grades would not suffer. She told me
that it would be in my best interest to wait until I graduate, wait until I left the class to make a formal
complaint.
BURKE: Wow
OMOH: This is at Grand Valley in this day in age. So I went home crying and I was just so upset, and
finally after the class, I went back and said okay I’m ready, I’d like to make a complaint. Ohhhhhhhhh we
can’t make a complaint they gave me some silly run around about how he had some social disability and
they investigated and blah blah blah and it was ok. Found out from other sources that because I had said
something, other students started to say things, other black students. Still wouldn’t say anything. I had
other students in my class that I didn’t know, white students, who would raise their hand and ask a
question, and he will answer. And then I would ask a question and he would say, “I’m not answering that
right now”. And I had another student, we weren’t really close but she knew me, I asked a question and
he said he wouldn’t answer and would have nothing to do with this, and I tell you I’m not lying, said the
same exact question flow verbatim and he answered it and she was so upset that he answered, that in
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13
�front ofthe whole class called him out. And said, “When Esi asked you this question youwouldn’t answer
it, why would you answer it for me right now? And what he said? “I don’t want to talk about that right
now.” And turned around and went back to theboard. She was so upset; she went and reported to the
same person that you report to, the advisor. And it wasn’t until she and some other students from like
my lab class, I also had him for lab.
BURKE: Mhrn
OMOH: Revolted, and were like “we aren’t going to stand for this!” and it kind of warmed my heart
because I didn’t know half of these people and made a formal complaint that they finally said they were
going to do something about it, this was like a semester later and I was like no, no, I don’t want to do
anything about it. This is the reason why, I don’t know if you heard anything about this, but a lot of black
people don’t have any faith in the police, they feel like if something goes wrong and they report it, they
are either not going to do anything about it or believe them, and nothing is going to come of it. Like if
you call the police in a black neighborhood no one is going to come versus, an hour later, versus if they
call in a rich neighborhood they will be there in like five minutes. So they just reinforced the whole idea
that me and my other friends in the class that were black were like well you should of known better,
they wouldn’t have done anything and it took people from another race to say something for you to
come back and say okay now we will pursue it, and I was like no, out of your own words you could not
guarantee my safety. So, my experiences in America as far as race, coming to west Michigan, have been
different. There has always been racism everywhere, , but there’s never, I’ve never dealt with it as much
as I came here. Living here. More ignorance than racism though, I’ll say that. But me being an R.A.
actually put me in that position where I could serve as a resource to teach people. I know a lot of
programs, a lot of students didn’t want to come because they’re like oh its race, all they are going to talk
about is white and black racism, but I’m like no, I’m just trying to let how to recognize the signs of
racism. Like if you see a peer being picked on by a professor from another race, that doesn’t mean you
have to think “Oh racism”, but you have to be aware to see the signs, like if that person is constantly
being put down by that professor of another race, you need to be able to see that and a lot of students I
find out that they never saw it like that. In Michigan, especially west Michigan people, that live in
Holland or Hudsonville, those are the people that I struggle more with because they’re just like I cannot
know that, why can’t I just say that the professor doesn’t like the student?
BURKE: Mhm
OMOH: Just teaching them that and my tolerance is high for ignorance.
BURKE: Were there any other times that you confronted any discrimination?
OMOH: Yeah.... Ha-ha, yeah .... Ha-ha I’ve confronted a lot. The most stressful ones were when I was an
R.A. between residents. The N-word, I’ve never liked it, I’ve never said it, and I don’t know why people
say it to each other. But the N-word being tossed around a lot, the derogatory remarks based on race,
not just race too, sexual preference and all of that. But the one that happened to me that really hurt the
most was my junior year of college and it was back then when Obarna was running for president, and , it
was like when the decision finally came out that he was going to win the election, it was a whole bunch
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�of people at Kleiner, like , watching on big screens on the T.V. and you could just see right when they
said it, the black people were like EEEEEEEEE and then I’m not going to say all the white people but they
were like in race caps, like the blacks were over here and the whites were over there and I’m telling it
was no joke, I don’t even know why you had to be black against white but it was like that here at Grand
Valley, and you could just see their faces, it was just like “oh wow...” the racial slurs started to be thrown
around, I think they closed Kleiner early that night, because people were just crazy and people were
sitting there saying that they were going to move to Canada, which I don’t know why they were saying
they were going to move to Canada, I don’t understand the significance of that, something about they
don’t have a black president, I don’t what they were saying, but I walking and how far Pickard is from
Kleiner, and I’m walking back and three girls from Kistler opened up their window and just started
throwing racial slurs at me, as I was walking, and it was kind of dark, and how those lamps illuminate
you. So they were like “her you black girl blah blah blah, n-word, f-you, blah blah blah, Obama should’ve
never won, I’m gonna come get you, blah blah blah”. I was like, I was so upset because for like 5 seconds
I forget I was an R.A. and my instinct was to go up to that room and beat the mess out of every last one
of those females. But the voice of reason came in and I went to my other co-worker and this was before
your time, she was a multicultural assistant to my resident assistant, she was like the race issue person,
and talked to her about it. And then they called Dewyon, and he was upset and was like “I’m really sorry
that you had to go through all that.” He knew that as an R.A. I couldn’t respond the way I should’ve
responded so they had this big investigation and they tried to find the people, and they never could.
how those windows are, and you could never place a room to a window, and it was dark, oh am I going
too much?
BURKE: Nope
OMOH: Okay, so they never placed a room so they could never find the people but I just felt targeted
and singled out, and just because Obama was president. I never have voted in my life, and one of the
reasons that I have never voted is because, well there are two reasons. One is because I don’t really feel
like I’m an American, I don’t feel like I should have a say in what goes on even though I am a citizen and
applied for that citizenship, I wasn’t born here and I don’t feel like I’m invested here. I feel that I am
invested in my community but I don’t feel like I should have a say in the American Government. And
secondly, I don’t vote for people that I don’t know anything about. I feel like I should be able to do
research, and if I like your views then I will vote. But I’m not just going to vote because you’re a
democrat or you’re a republican, or you like schools or you want to give woman health care, I want to
be able to do research and I don’t know how to do research and either way I’m always like I like what
you’re saying, I like what you’re saying, I like what you’re saying, but I can’t just pick. I don’t like what
you’re saying sometimes, or I don’t like what you’re saying sometimes, it just never makes a difference
so I don’t vote. And me being targeted, I didn’t even vote for the man! I felt like I was targeted because
apparently every black person voted for Obama, so the people were against Obama, or targeting, the
whole week there were targets on peoples white boards, people getting into fights, I think there was like
a gun incident too.
BURKE: Wow
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15
�OMOH: A lot of stuff happens at Grand Valley but they are very hush-hush. I think they surrounded a
black guy and it was like three white people confronted the black guy and told him, something that had
to do with the election and were calling him the n-word, and said they were going to letch him.
BURKE: This was at Grand Valley?
OMOH: Grand Valley girl.
BURKE: Wow
OMOH: So, haha I try to put it in the back of my mind so I don’t think about it but you’re questions are
very deep haha.
BURKE: haha I’m sorry!
OMOH: It’s okay, it’s okay! I think we should go to the next question!
BURKE: Will you describe any personal hero’s that have had an influence on your life?
OMOH: Heros 9 hhh... I don’t think I have any hero’s. I think I have people that I greatly admire.
BURKE: Okay
OMOH: And um, I admire, can I say names?
BURKE: Yeah!
OMOH: Okay, Dewyon White? The purposes living center director of Grand Valley housing, I admire him
a lot because I was I became an RA my junior year, my freshman and sophomore year I was very angry,
not as angry as I was in high school, but I was a very angry woman about all the same things, especially
about racial stuff happening, I was very angry about how things were turning out to be in this world, and
he took me and groomed me basically he was one of the people that, also Tacara Lyn, she was his
supervisor, they basically groomed me to the woman that I am today and being more tolerant and
understanding of people. Yeah, pastor, couple of co-workers, family, they’ve all played an instrumental
role but my hero, I don’t like that term just for the fact that hero can be sin ominous worship
sometimes, I don’t really have a hero, because it’s like put this person on a pedestal and I don’t think it’s
fair to put anyone on a pedestal because then when they can’t meet those standards their world comes
crashing down and I always hear people who have hero’s and for example they say this man who has a
wife, but then he cheats on her, now that affects you because you felt this man was on this pedestal and
that backlashes and that’s just a way I protect myself. I have a lot of people I admire who play an
instrumental role in my life but I don’t have any hero’s. Sorry!
BURKE: No that’s fine! Were you involved in any civil rights organizations or anything like
that while at Grand Valley?
OMOH: No, the most ethnic thing I ever did was got involved in the ethnic council, quite honestly the
last thing you could say but I really don’t like black history month for the simple fact that, well I wouldn’t
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�mind celebrating black history every month it’s just to have that one month, February, like I told you I
don’t really like learning about what the slaves went through, I’m just a very emotional person and
when I hear about all of that, it’s just like wow! In this country, are you serious? And then the same
thing is happening in my country and it’s not more of a slavery thing but it’s more of genocide, up north
in Nigeria the Muslims are killing Christians because they see Christians as not worthy. I’m not saying all
Muslims but the terrorist groups, they always say Muslims but terrorist are only like 1%, and you never
hear about the God loving Muslims, you only hear about the terrorist. Actually, in one of the villages
that my mom grew up in, they actually went there and killed everyone in the village, it wasn’t just
shootings, they took a machete and chopped people up. Babies, headless babies. So I don’t like black
history month because when it’s on TV. They always want to show something about hangings and I
understand that you need to recognize that but I try to stay away from civil rights because that whole
inequality stuff is too emotional for me to deal with. I support it from the outskirts like the civil rights
walk but as far as actively involved I stay away from it.
BURKE: Okay, can you describe the involvement in your church and how that has had an influence on
your life?
OMOH: I grew up Roman Catholic but a couple of years ago I started going to this church named Grace
of the Nation’s Church and it’s a Cogic church which means “Church of God in Christ,” I’ve worked there
in an organization where they help international students and international members, because it’s an
international church. We have people from Jamaica, people from Nigeria, , people from South America,
Mexico and even Korea. So we have a ministry that deals with international people and also we have
different ministries where we raise money and donations for a little ministry that we have in Benisala, in
Haiti, and in Iraq and in South Africa. We actually have one of our South African pastors that we support
coming up to grace, so me being directly involved in that kind of keeps me grounded in trying to get
back into my roots of helping international students and everything, and I also do hospitality which I
really like because I am in front of the house greater so I’m the first person they see before they enter to
the church, which is kind of cool because you can always the newcomers they are kind of nervous and
I’m like “Hi welcome to Grace!” and then they totally get into the grooves of things and get welcomed.
So me having involvement in my church gives me another avenue to get involved within my community
and also it will keep me grounded with people who are international and who might have went through
the same things I did and try to let them know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, and that not
all Americans have you haha. And I’m like , don’t listen to everybody. When I first came here I had a lot
of black people say, “don’t trust white people!” “They’ve got it in for you” “They are all racist!” so I’m
letting them know to make their own decisions about people.
BURKE: Have you ever experienced any discrimination towards your religion?
OMOH: Yeah, it’s kind of sad though because I understand why, I have a lot of friends that do a lot of
things and the one that I clash the most with is my gay or lesbian friends nine times out often I’d say all
of them totally dislike Christians, most of them have had really bad experiences with Christians and I feel
like because of that there is going to be a part of intimacy within my friends that I can never reach
because they have this preconceived notions about Christianity. And I don’t blame them, not at all
because I’ve also had Christian friends who are very unchristian who don’t accept people for who they
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�are, so I’ve had a lot of friends, for example, like I said I am very active in my church and I like to invite
people to come to my church, and when your friends are not church goers, they don’t really want to go
and always say some kind of religious slurs, like “that’s too Christianity for me”, and it hurts. They might
feel that they have problems in their gay or lesbian relationship and feel like they can’t talk to me about
it because of my Christianity. But as far as people who hate me because I’m a Christian, no I haven’t had
that happen. But once they find out they are bias towards me. Yeah, I have a lot of Muslim friends too,
my closest friend, she is Saudi Arabian; I have a lot of friends that are different. Some of them might
think that their religion is superior to mine. I just let them keep thinking that, whatever floats your boat
because I’m secure in my religion. But as far as discrimination as in I don’t want to talk to you or be
around you because you’re a Christian, no I haven’t had to deal with that.
BURKE: How was it different going to high school in Chicago versus your school in Nigeria?
OMOH: First of all, a lot more of racial diversity in America than in Nigeria. School here is a lot easier,
which is good for me. We start school at a very early age and its education, education, education, I don’t
ever remember relaxing. But it wasn’t bad and I didn’t complain because it was what everyone did, they
went to school at 7:30am and it was over at 4:30pm and had tutoring, which was basically another
school from 5:00pm to 8:30pm and then do homework and chores and start it all over again. I don’t
think I ever relaxed and I didn’t have weekends, it’s been a long time, but I didn’t have to go to school
on Saturdays but I had home school on that day, and Sundays I went to church, eat and then study
because I had homework from regular day school and from tutoring also. But everyone else did it, so it
wasn’t like I was the only one so I never complained. It was a social norm. The difference here is that I
learn about different cultures such as European history, American history, but in Nigeria our history was
focused on Britain, because we were colonized by the British, so we learn more about that. Difference
that I don’t like here that I liked there is the option of learning of learning my own language, I feel that I
would be a lot more fluent in it, so that’s another thing that I need to work on. Not being able to
practice your language doesn’t necessary mean you’re going to lose it but you start thinking in a
language, such as English. For example my parents used to ask me questions in my own language, but I
would respond in English. I was never really 100% fluent, but I was speaking the equivalent of Spanglish,
half Spanish half English, but now I can’t even do that! I just respond back in English. I wish they had
more variety, instead of options for European but African. I’m happy they have Japanese, which isn’t
very common, Chinese is more common than Japanese, but just a variety of languages is something that
I miss.
BURKE: Based on the different schooling systems that you have been a part of, can you describe any
differences in the structure of learning? Such as critical thinking skills?
OMOH: In Nigeria we push math and science.
BURKE: Why is that?
OMOH: Both of my parents were educators, and their theory on this, which I believe, is that they pushed
math and science because we are a developing country. So we push and start school early, you graduate
high school when you are 16, and you go on to college where you learn math and science, stereotypical
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�but most Africans are either doctors or engineers, something math or science related. You go and get
these good degrees and then give back to the community. So the high school college generation is the
future of the country, what they specialize in will be what our country will develop in. The reason why
the United States developed is because they have all this technology and resources, well it took
someone to go into a higher level in college for them to invent all of these things. So we hope that one
day, when we give back to our community that most of these people who went to other countries to get
their degree in other things will one day rule our country, but they never end up coming back. If they
came back with all of their education, and with enough people doing that, we would eventually rise as a
nation. But people never do, so the solution is to focus more on math and science so one day we will do
something very successful.
BURKE: So how is that compared to finishing school here?
OMOH: here is total opposite. In American they focus more on English literature, how you speak, more
of life skills then technical skills. You always know your hard math and science, but they always stress
and say oh if this math and science is not for you, then that’s okay! You can be a professor in psychology
or English or something like that. In Nigeria you don’t have an option. Especially from your parents, you
have to do well and success is only measured on whether or not you do something in the math or
science field. I’m sure there are very success English professors, but for Nigeria success is only if you
become a doctor or engineer or business. You don’t really hear people who are happy that have other
careers, even if they are giving back to the community, they only want people who are successful. So
there’s a lot more stress on you getting good grades in Nigeria than there is here. If you’re not getting
good grades, than you’re not making the best of what you’re given. If you are a C average student, you
better be the best C average student that you are. In Nigeria, if you get a B or B+, that’s just as bad as an
F. I’m so serious. I went to sleep so many times crying, I remember I had my first B that I got in college,
cried for days. My mom and dad yelled at me, you could have sworn that I got an F on my report card or
something. They said “are those other people better than you? Why can’t you get an A?” I was crying
because it’s not bad getting a B on your transcript, but when your parents see that B, they are going to
be very upset with you. So I like America better, it’s a lot more stress free.
BURKE: So we know that you went to Grand Valley for school, but is there anything else you would like
to talk about within your experience? Such as the environment, we talked about student organizations
already, but are there any other networks that you did?
OMOH: Give me an example
BURKE: Was the student body interested in civil rights, or did you ever network or attend meetings with
students who share your identity from other colleges?
OMOH: From other colleges no I’ve never really met with other Universities, but the African student
council; we do a lot of events and people from Michigan State University or Western University, people
from other major universities. But as far as building relationships with people that identif with the way
that I do from other universities, not so much. I could barely even do that here! Like I told you, African
student council. It is a very good part of my life here at Grand Valley but I also felt that I was very limited
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�there. It was nice to have a group of people; we had whites, Africans, Hispanics and even Korean! But
identity is such a fragile thing and I thought I finally got over it, airight I’m me, I’m part of the African
student council so that’s like got to be African, and then having to work through stereotypes within your
own people is so rough. So I think that inhibited me from seeking deeper relationships. And then, I was
really upset because I was going to get more familiar with the African refugee center, this year since I no
longer have school and I could really dedicate working with individuals who first come under a refugee
status and I found out a couple weeks ago that they had to close down because there wasn’t enough
interest. As far as I know that was the only one in West Michigan. Hopefully one of these days I will have
enough guts to start one in Grand Rapids, but I don’t plan on staying in Grand Rapids, I don’t know.
BURKE: Where do you plan on going?
OMOH: Somewhere down south, I like to travel. Obviously I came to America, and then I came to
Michigan by myself, I want to go down south, I’ve never really experienced anywhere in down south
before. I’ve been to the east coast; I haven’t been to the west coast. I think I’m more southern than I am
western. I don’t think I have the personality to move to California, I want to find a nice little town down
south with just the right amount of people. Not too big, not too small. Happy people. I heard there are a
lot of happy people down south and I’m very big on hospitality. I know it’s kind of a silly reason to move
but I like people that smile, ? I’m the kind of person that gets my energy from happy people, if you’re
sad I’m sad and if you’re angry, I’m angry. I don’t become physically angry but I become tense. And I’m
young and I want to work with refugees. I’m also going into the peace core. I was supposed to be going
to Kenya for 27 months for the peace core in October, but they did the budget cuts and postponed it
until March. And then I found out that they picked 7 people out of thousands and I was one of the
people that they picked, but now they don’t have money for 7 people, only 3 or 4. So now I’m back to
square one, trying to re-interview since I made the cut the first time. But I might not be doing it anymore
because it takes a lot of emotional investment and they already took it away from me once, I was really
depressed and don’t want to go through that again. My dream is to go back and open up a dentist for
single mothers, less fortunate people that cannot afford health care. So within the peace core I was
going to teach math and science in Kenya, and having that under my belt would give me essential life
building skills to move on. But the government is jerking my chain so I think I will just go work in a
refugee center, it’s the next best thing.
BURKE: What made you decide to come to Michigan by yourself?
OMOH: I think I’ve also told you this before, but it was the grass!
BURKE: The grass?
OMOH: ha-ha yes the grass! I played soccer in high school, and I mean I was good but I wasn’t that good
so I was surprised when I got full scholarships to schools. I had a full ride soccer scholarship, and then
two academic based scholarships. So I went to the schools and said okay I don’t have to pay for
anything, but on the other hand I didn’t want to be stuck playing soccer for my whole college
experience, and I was going into sciences and it would have been really hard to juggle all of them, and it
was a private school. So then it was Grand Valley State University, University of Toledo, University of
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�Illinois, I went to Champaign and it was too big for me, and Toledo was in the hood, it was good but it
was surrounded by hood areas. And I grew up in the hood in Chicago and I’m trying to leave all of that. I
want to go to an academic community! I had a vision and I came in the summertime, where it was so
pretty with the grass. I guess the grass in Michigan is different from the grass in Illinois. Our grass
doesn’t green like this, this is like good earth. My parents were just blown away by the grass, the trees
and the flowers. I would rather come here with a class of only 30 people and I need to be able to have a
teacher that knows my name, that when I go to their office hours, you recognize me and I’m not just
another face. That was one of the reasons; the biggest one is still the grass though.
BURKE: So what were your expectations for your education, did your parents have an influence?
OMOH: My parents influenced me a lot on my decision, I always knew I wanted to do something in
science, but my father wanted me to be a lawyer and my mother wanted me to be a medical doctor. It
wasn’t until my sophomore year when I said I’m not being a doctor or a lawyer! I am going to be a
dentist! That’s when I was getting my braces off and said I want to do something with the dentist now.
Still to this day organic chemistry is my favorite chemistry in the whole wide world, you’re going to love
it. I’ve always been interested in organic structures, but my senior year I realized that I get my energy
from human interaction and even though I would be interacting with my patients, I want to be
interacting with them on a personal level. So I still want to do something with my degree but I realized
that dentist school isn’t for me. It’s not enough to just make people smile and happy, I’m not going to
get enough interaction. iVy parents were very disappointed, my mom threatened to disown me. She is
still upset with me for not going straight to dentist school; it was a big family argument. I’m not sure if it
is like that in other African societies but I know that in Nigeria, from my experience, your parents set
your role. They push you towards the math and sciences. I also lucked out that I liked it; if I didn’t like it
then it would be a problem.
BURKE: How did that vary within your siblings? Like with their college degrees?
OMOH: No variation, but I will be the only science. My older sister has her masters in finance, my older
brother is a computer engineer and my other sister is an industrial engineer and it’s me and my little
brother who are going into business. I would be the variation within the social service job because
obviously there’s no money in that, and if there’s no money than there’s no success. But I don’t see it
like that.
BURKE: Can you describe any historic events either in western Michigan or Nigeria that had an impact
on you or your family, which you remember?
OMOH: 9/11, I was in the 8 grade when it happened. It didn’t really impact me because I didn’t have any
family there but it impacted me by the way the country as grieving, andhow to this day when 9/Il passes
here and people are still recovering and crying. Like Isaid I don’t like stuff like that because I’m very
motivated by my emotions, so seeing how the country all came together to get through that was very
inspirational for me. Everyone was grieving, it didn’t matter what race, color or disability, everyone was
grieving and it showed that even though we’re all different in some ways, it showed that as humans we
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�support each other. I thought that was pretty cool. Actually one of my friends decided to be a firefighter
because of that.
BURKE: How has your perception of your identity changed as you grew older?
OMOH: Like I said it’s changed, every couple of years I change how I identify myself. When I think of
identity I think of race, I never think gender or sex, I always think race because that is such a big thing for
me. My identity is always going to be from high school student, college student, grown adult, middle
class to hopefully comfortable class. As far as status, single American. I never think that, I always think
race. Right now I just consider myself black. If people ask me to tell them a little bit more, I say I actually
have roots in Nigeria. But for now Ijust consider myself black. That might eventually change because I go
through stages where I am like full on African! I wear all my African gear and tell the world. But right
now I am just black.
BURKE: So you think it will change?
OMOH: Oh yeah most definitely. My identity changes with my maturity. When I first came to America I
was like “I’m African, I need to separate and be an individual!” so I wore my Africanism quote on quote
as a cloak for security to separate myself from people so I could be an individual. in high school, you
don’t want to be the individual; you want to be the one with the coolest hair and a certain kind of style.
So that was my token of individuality. In college I was Nigerian, not just African. Nigerian-American, I set
myself as somebody who could be between African and African American. Now I just consider myself
someone from an African descent, which is black. I can talk to Africans comfortably, I can talk to blackAmericans comfortably, I can talk to whites, and I can talk to anyone. I am just a woman from African
descent.
BURKE: Do you feel that members of your community have struggled from any civil rights in western
Michigan?
OMOH: Seeing as how I just moved to Grand Rapids, I don’t really know too many people in my
community. Most of friends didn’t grow up in west Michigan; most of them grew up in Detroit or flint.
So I don’t know, I can’t answer that question.
BURKE: What issues do you feel still need civil rights advocacy?
OMOH: Civil rights in reference to what?
BURKE: Anything.
OMOH: Gender discrimination, I am a little controversial in my definition of civil rights but I think
everyone should be equal. Within race, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference. I think that at the very basis
of it that we are humans and the bible teaches us to love thy neighbor as thyself, so I feel that we need
more work. I think there’s been a lot of work gone towards racial civil rights, and I know a lot of my
friends think that it needs more work and I agree. But I think that sometimes civil rights only eclipses
racial issues instead of conflicts with gender, sex, and sexual preference, to things like woman in
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�different work fields. I’m always about equal opportunity. When I hear civil rights I think about race, I
think that when people think of civil rights they shouldn’t only think of things that are racial related.
BURKE: Is there anything else that you would like to add or comment on?
OMOH: No not really, I think we summed it all up. I appreciate you interviewing me; it makes me feel
that you value my opinion.
BURKE: We do! Thank you very much. This concludes our interview.
END OF INTERVIEW
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23
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca85e264db454a02aaa0faeb3a3be379.mp3
d4def79b0b0387a626b47f90ac928f50
Dublin Core
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Title
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights--Michigan--History
Personal narratives
Oral histories
African Americans--Personal narratives
Gays--Personal narratives
Lesbians--Personal narratives
Bisexual people--Personal narratives
Transgender people--Personal narratives
Veterans--Personal narratives
Women--Personal narratives
People with disabilities--Personal narratives
Muslims--United States--Personal narratives
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Homophobia
Discrimination
Islamophobia
Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012.
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies
Source
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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2017-05-02
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
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Text
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GV248-01
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1930-2011
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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GV248-01_Omoh_Esiloza
Title
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Esiloza Omoh audio interview and transcript
Creator
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Omoh, Esiloza
Contributor
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Burke, Briana
Description
An account of the resource
Esiloza Omoh was born in Legos, Nigeria, raised in Chicago, Illinois, and attended Grand Valley State University. She graduated with a degree in Biomedical Science. She discusses her experiences with discrimination because of the color of her skin.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights--Michigan--History
Women--Personal narratives
Discrimination
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Relation
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project
Date
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2011-09-30
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/738c229cd7fe58605a44c020a60a18b7.pdf
94b51d5bdaa6bce0360e7a27754c9c44
PDF Text
Text
Speaking Out
Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Interviewee: Mirta McGee
Interviewers: Christina McGee
Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 10/22/2011
Biography and Description
Mirta McGee was born in Cuba and raised in the United States. She is currently an elementary
school Spanish teacher. She discusses balancing Cuban culture with American culture,
discrimination based on language barriers, and the differences between when she was growing up
and her students now.
Transcript
CHRISTINA: Could you please introduce yourself and tell me a little about yourself?
MIRTA: My name is Mirta Maria McGee. I was born on February 9th, 1960 in Cienfuegos, Cuba. My
parents were Eduardo and Mirta Irueta and I have one sister, Concepcion Irueta and goes by the name
of Connie. I am married and have three children. My oldest is Christina at nineteen years old, Nicholas at
seventeen years old, and Caitlin who is fourteen years old.
CHRISTINA: And where did you do all your schooling?
MIRTA: I graduated from the University of Michigan with a BA in education and then I went back to get
my Masters in Education at U of M. I also vent to the University of New Rochelle in New York to get my
Montessori training for six to nine year olds, and that’s kind of like first, second and third grade, you
teach all three grades in the same classroom. And currently I’m getting my Spanish endorsement from
Wayne State for grades 12 through... I mean I’m sorry kindergarten through 8th grade
CHRISTINA: And what are you doing now?
MIRTA: Right now i’m teaching Spanish to grades third, fourth and fifth.
CHRISTINA: Explain coming from Cuba to America. Or if you don’t really remember that how was it from
living in Florida to Detroit, how was the transitions?
MIRTA: Well I left Cuba when I was 2, and we lived in Florida for about nine months so I turned three in
Miami and then we moved to Detroit. So I don’t really remember anything from Miami or Cuba because
I was too young. But 1 do remember the different houses we lived in when we moved to Detroit. We
lived in one neighborhood that was near All Saints. My sister who is seven years older than me went to
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�AU Saints. And then we moved to another neighborhood where we were closer to Saint Gabes and
that’s where I went to school. All my schooling from first through to high school was catholic schools,
they were private. So one school was first through eighth and then 1 went to Holy Redeemer for ninth,
tenth, eleventh and twelfth grade.
CHRISTINA: And how were the Catholic schools, how was that compared to what you see now in the
public schools?
MIRTA: Well it was more disciplined, they were stricter. We... I loved the uniform. I wish more schools
had uniform. But it was more restrictive, you had certain things you had to do or you couldn’t do. We
had religion every day. There was more of a sense I think sometimes of family than there is now. There
were the priests involved in your training. All the Nuns that we had, because being a parochial school a
lot of nuns did the teaching, now a day you hardly see nuns. There are so few of them around. My
neighborhood was very diverse so we had lots of nationalities living together, learning about each
other’s nationalities.
CHRISTINA: Were they mostly catholic or was it all different types of religions?
MIRTA: No all different types of religions. A lot of the kids I hung out with where Catholic only because
we all went to the same school so you usually stick to the friends you go to school with but when we
were in middle school and high school and a lot of us worked in the neighborhood tasty freeze. And
there, there were all kinds of people. Kids who went to the public school, as well as kids who went to the
parochial schools so there were a lot of different religions we were hanging out with at the time.
CHRISTINA: So I know you described what it was like growing up but do you have any distinct memories?
How was it growing up in the sense that you weren’t necessarily born in this country? And of course
people would hear about that and...
MIRTA: Well. . we... My parents still followed all the Cuban traditions but then we tried to follow along
some of the newer American traditions. We as Cubans don’t celebrate Christmas Day we celebrate
Christmas Eve. We still stuck to the Christmas Eve going to church on Christmas Eve and celebrating it
after that. Then St. Valentine’s day that wasn’t really a big holiday for us. Halloween wasn’t a really big
holiday but because all my friends were doing the Halloween and the trick or treating but so it was a
meshing of cultures. Of our culture that we didn’t want to lose sight of and the new host culture of the
country we were now living in.
CHRISTINA: So did your parents feel that because you were in a new country but obviously you guys
stuck to what your customs were but did they change it more because of you or just to fit in?
MIRTA: I think it was a little bit of both, to fit in and to make me feel like I was a part of it. And more
comfortable if all my friends were doing something and I won’t have been doing it then maybe I
would’ve been more left out. More than anything it was more in stuff like holidays or stuff like that.
There were still stuff that they... I wasn’t allowed to say like sleepover at friend’s house because my
parents didn’t know; they basically didn’t know other parents. And since they didn’t know them, they
didn’t feel comfortable with me spending the night over there. I mean I could still go over to friend’s
Page 2
�houses, they could come to my house but we didn’t do that whole sleeping over routine and things like
that.
CHRISTINA: I see, and can you ever remember when you were in school or a time when you had
difficulty or you were made fun of or you personally or your sister personally discriminated against?
How did you respond to that?
MIRTA: Well there were kids that would tease you and call you... . all they knew about Cuba was Castro
so they would call you mini Castro or stuff like that. We would get the, since our culture we kinda as
babies get our ear pierced. So we had our ear’s pierced and our earrings, and we would kinda get... it
was kind of a new thing that Americans were not used to seeing. So we were made fun of for that saying
we were barbarians because we had holes in our ears. And being a prochial school we always had a
uniform but once a month we had a free day let’s say that you could wear whatever you wanted like a
causal day. So naturally all the kids would wear jeans but Cubans don’t wear jeans because Cuba’s a hot
tropical island and jeans would only make you hotter. So we wore cotton dresses, cotton skirts, linen,
and things like that. So if we wore something like that for casual day then that was also another way for
us to be standing out and being made fun of saying that we were freakish because we weren’t dressing
like the norm.
MIRTA: So how did that make you guys feel? Did it make you guys feel like you weren’t fitting in or was
it just like kids will be kids. Or was it different because you were not...
CHRISTINA: Well I guess it was a little bit of both. I’m sure there was sometimes when you thought
about kids just being kids but other times it kind of upset us because... I guess we felt like we weren’t,
our feelings weren’t being taken into consideration, because it was almost like as long as there was
something different about you then its ok to make fun of. I guess we were used to other cultures, it
wasn’t,.. I mean we didn’t feelthe same way. And our high school there was a huge melting pot of
different nationalities. We had the Muslims, we had a big group of Hispanics because there were
Mexicans and the Puerto Ricans so there was that big community. And Holy Redeemer is in a Hispanic
neighborhood so there was that group and we had a huge group of Arabic people. So they were all doing
their thing but I think that on the whole that everyone got along. Everyone kinda realized there were
different religions and then at our high school we also had to take religion courses which were world
religion that kind of gave you the, taught you all different kind of religions. We looked into the Muslims,
the Jewish andwe had field trips where we visited the synagogue and different churches. So I think that
also gave us an awareness of other people, their beliefs and their customs so I didn’t feel that, at least
during my high school years that people kinda made fun of you. I think by the time we go there, there
was so many different cultures all trying to get along that it was a lot easier. I think that in elementary
school we kind of stuck out as being different. So it was a little more difficult plus we were new to this
country so it was getting used to all that and being made fun of But as we got older and you’re kind of
thrown in with a lot more different groups that then you kind of learn to get along better.
CHRISTINA: So you feel like once you guys all grew up and you went to school generally with the same
people?
Page 3
�MIRTA: Yes for like 12 years.
CHRISTINA: You all got to know each other and it was bad at first but then it slowly just everyone
understood each other got along. And you were more open to cause usually the grades are smaller
when you are in elementary and middle school and once you get into high school everything opens up
and everything opens up and they realize that its different
MIRTA: Yeah and I guess that would probably be, in my case that it probably helped a lot that Holy
Redeen er is in or close to Mexican town. So there was a lot of Spanish speaking people, there were a lot
of Spanish speaking shops around, bakeries so it kinda it made it easier I would say. Holy Redeemer had
a Spanish mass; it had a huge group of Spanish speaking members so…
CHRISTINA: It made it easier
MIRTA: It made it a lot easier, but even so with any fights that ever broke out in our high school was
never between different racial groups. it was always like you know just over silly dumb things but
between friends and between groups but it was never raciall motivated.
CHRISTINA: Ok, so was there ever like family, how did your parents respond? Because they had been
living in Cuba obviously for a long period of time, so the transition would’ve been probably a culture
shock, a lot different coming from Cuba to America.
MIRTA: Yes I will have to say I always felt that I had to give my parents a lot of credit that leaving when
they were... My dad was in his 40’s when he left Cuba to start in a new country, a new job, basically a
new language because they took English in Cuba but as anything when you learn the language and then
you are immersed in it, to speak it it’s a bit different. When they first came here they had to get used to
the language because everybody, in any language they speak faster than when you learn it. When you
learn a language everything is ‘how are you”, and no one speaks like that. So a lot of the slang and stuff
they had, they didn’t know, and they had to pick up and so it was difficult for them. Beside that, also
picking up and starting in a country whose culture is completely different, The climate is completely
different. Michigan with its cold and its snow is a drastic change from Cuba which is tropical and warm
all year round. And so that was a big transition for them. They left all their family, their friends and all
heir possessions. All their keepsakes and pictures and photo albums, everything, to start all over and try
to make a better live for themselves. So I think they would’ve had a harder time because my mom had
been a teacher in Cuba but her degree was recognized to a point but she had to go back to school to get
an endorsement so she could teach Spanish and she almost had to get another degree so she could be
able to teach here. So that was also an adjustment, having to go back to school and start all over as well
as learn every
CHRISTINA: Everything that about America
MIRTA: Right
CHRISTINA: Where they discriminated against? Did they ever get the rude comments and the...
Page 4
�MIRTA: I do remember every once and a while. I remember one day we had just come back from church
and we were on our way back home and we stopped at one of those corner mom and pop type stores to
get some milk and bread or something like that, to pick up something. We were leaving the store talking
amongst ourselves in Spanish and a little old lady stopped us and started yelling at my dad, saying that
now that we were in America we should speak English and not any other language. And I remember my
dad getting mad and it was a little polish lady. I remember my dad telling her “I’m sure when you go
home you speak in polish and nobody is telling you what to do.” My dad felt strongly that just because
we were here didn’t mean that we didn’t have to our culture and our language. And the only way we
would kept that is if we kept speaking it, and he didn’t want my sister and I to forget the language to
forget our nationality and all our traditions. So we still spoke in Spanish, that’s not to say that we didn’t
speak in English too but he didn’t want us to forget that. So we did that at home, and that’s how he
would make sure I spoke in Spanish so I won’t lose it. So that kinda upset me because I guess, I would
hear Arabic being spoken by this family, I would hear Italian by this one, Polish by this one. And to me
that never really bothered me, I always thought that it was neat that other people and their language
and their customs and their traditions. So I guess I never really understood why somebody would be
offended by that but I guess it’s their own I think that when people hear you speak in another language
it’s that narcissistic tendency to think that they think you are talking about them. The whole world
revolves around them, no we are not always talking about you. It isn’t about them. We are talking about
whatever we want to talk about but since they don’t know what you’re saying they assume that you are
saying something about them.
CHRISTINA: So they didn’t have as much as a problem you would say because you were immersed in the
schooling and you were...
MIRTA: We still had, I do recall my mom maybe because she spoke more English because she was
teaching and she still had an accent, but my dad’s accent was stronger than my moms, and basically it’s
because if he didn’t always have to speak it he spoke more of the Spanish. My, not that he didn’t
understand you, he understood the English and he spoke it but he didn’t speak it as often as my mom.
So I remember going into Sears, and we were buying some kind of appliance, I don’t remember what,
but I remember my dad going in there and right off the bat saying excuse me, something about a strong
accent or his English was not as good. 1 remember the salesman gushing all over ahhh no you speak
perfect English. Which you kinda knew it was a big lie because it wasn’t perfect English you know it
wasn’t bad English but it wasn’t perfect English. So he was just buttering him up so he could get his
commission and his sale, And he would just go on and ooze about how wonderful my dad’s English was
and blah b!ah blah. And then I remember we purchased something and it was a big ticket item and we
brought it home. Something happened and it wasn’t working and we had to have a repair or something.
I remember going back with my dad and the salesman going “what? I don’t understand you. What do
you want? I don’t understand a thing you are saying.” I remember my dad looking at him saying “funny
when I came in here to purchase it my English couldn’t have been better but now that there is a
problem with something you claim to not understand me.” So I did notice the instances like that, where
there would be, their nationality or their English would come into play and then they were treated
differently. Also because my dad had the thicker accent people would always assume, because you had
the have an accent for some reason you are lacking in intelligence. Or that you’re deaf, so they scream
Page 5
�when they talk to you. I’m not deaf I have an accent. I always look at it as no I would think that if you
know two or three languages you are a heck of a lot more intelligent than one who only speaks one. So
instead of talking down you should try to listen to what they are saying and not treat them like they are
ignorant. That I always found to be pretty annoying hut then I think I when I.,. The first job I ever had
was working at the Tasty Freeze and the couple who ran it were German. So I was always exposed to
them talking to each other in German and I got used to listening to accents. Like my parents had their
accent, they had their accent, my best friend was Maltese and I always went over there and I would
always like to listen to her mom and dad talking Maltese and so there was all different languages that I
was exposed too growing up.
CHRISTINA: I see. Now you live in a predominantly white community, would you say that it’s been
different than where you grew up, where you were surrounded by so many Hispanics? I mean now you
are older and it’s different and times have changed do you think there is a difference?
MIRTA: Yes I would, because I think this community (as wonderful as I like where I live) I see where,
umm, people are not used to anyone who is different than them. I see how they look kind of differently
on the Asians, Indians, Hispanic, and I don’t think they quite know how to deal with them because they
haven’t had to. This is a really small community with one high school, two elementary schools, and one
middle school, and they really haven’t had to deal with a lot of diversity and I don’t think they know how
to deal with it. You hear the adults, you hear the kids becauseobviously they’ve been exposed to it with
there parents how they don’t go into the city, because of the crime, they’re afraid to go into the
museum, and its really kind of sad because they separate themselves like that. It’s like they’re only
comfortablebeing with there “own kind” and frankly I kind of think my childhood was better being
exposed to all kinds of people, because there you learn from each other, you learn from their traditions
and culture. You learn how to get along as opposed to being strictly with all, lets say white Anglo Saxons
and then its like there not used to dealing with anybody else, and if anyone’s just a little bit different
they don’t know what to make of it
CHRISTINA: Right and I know going to school in the community, if there was one black kid everyone
knew who he was and everyone know everything about him just because he was the only one. I mean I
never really experienced anyone being discriminated against or racially profiled. You have your Middle
Eastern kids that would make jokes about themselves. They would call themselves “the brown kids.”
They would joke and talk about themselves. You being a teacher have you seen any bullying or
comments being made or anything in the younger grades?
MIRTA: No. I would have to think about that but I haven’t really umm what I do whenteach, I mean I, I
not only teach them the language, I try to teach them about the culture, because unfortunately when
they hear, ok where going to learn Spanish and we talk about Spanish, they unfortunately think the only
other country that speaks Spanish is Mexico and they don’t have a clue that there are tons, there is
Puerto Rico, South America, Central America, there is the Caribbean, and so I try to open their eyes so
they are more culturally aware. So maybe each month we do a country. One month we do Spain, and we
learn about what life is like in Spain. What is there music like, what is there dance like? So I show them
the flamingo, and what that music is and how it came about and the dancing and how it’s similar. And
we do Mexico, and we learn about the mariachi and how it came about. Then we can go and learn about
Page 6
�Argentina and the tango, and their culture because you want them to be culturally aware and know that
there is a whole world out there and there are different traditions. You know we talk about the DIa de
los Muertos and how did that came about. And typically, a lot of our traditions, are Hispanic traditions,
come from Roman Catholic faith, because the majority are catholic. I’m not saying every Hispanic is, but
the major religion in Spain is Catholicism, the major religion in Cuba is Catholicism and in Mexico. So a
lot of these traditions where based on the church. So El DIa de los Muertos was to honor the dead, we
didn’t do Halloween, we did that. So during Christmas we do the Posadas, which is the re-enactment of
Christ going from inn to inn, not Christ, I should say Mary and Joseph looking for a place to stay and
finally finding it at the stable. So all of these are religious holidays. So I try to tell them, this is how this
culture celebrates these things because they are all religion based.
CHRISTINA: So you’re saying kids now a day are more sheltered than they were in the past. How you
were raised and everything, you are culturally aware. You had all the different ethnicities and languages
around you. I know you had some white friends, and obviously they were more culturally aware. You see
kids now a day and they’re telling you they only think Spanish comes from Mexico, would you say kids
are more sheltered now than they were before and they don’t know what’s going on and they are more
ignorant if you will, and the parents are to blame because they don’t want their kids to be?
MIRTA: I don’t know if they don’t want or if they don’t feel comfortable with or they don’t know enough
about. Which is surprising when you think about all the technology out there; you’ve got YouTube and
all the different things in the computer, you would think the world opens up more for you now because
of all that. I guess to a degree, with the music, they can be more aware. You have your different Hispanic
groups and they are opening up and crossing over to the American scene and are more pop. So that kind
of teaches them. We had Gloria Estefan and theMiami Sound Machine, which really opened up the
Cuban music and brought it to the American scene, and now we have Pitbull doing his rap and that kind
of also makes them more aware. So I guess in a way that helps a little bit but otherwise people kind of
didn’t know what was going on, so I guess it depends. If you haveparents that are making these kids
more aware and are teaching them about thisand are taking them places, if they only stay in their little
community and only go to the same kind of places then they aren’t going to know any better. We have a
family in my school, they go to Coasta Rica every year for spring break. And so now the kids just love it
and they say “we can practice our Spanish there” and they have come back with so many souvenirs that
I told the mom who is always bringing me stuff, and I said great because one of my months we are doing
a unit on Coasta Rica. And so that also gives them another sense of what’s out there, how people live
and what they do.
CHRISTINA: And do you think that class has anything do with it? Like social class and the income that
people make. Is higher class or lower class more or less aware?
MIRTA: Well I suppose class will have something to do with it. If you are better off and you have the
funds to be able to travel and you do travel. I mean you may have the money to travel but you never
leave and never go anywhere and then of course that doesn’t help. But these people that are traveling
and seeing the world that opens up their horizons and opens up their ideas so that they are able to
communicate with people and see the differences and if you never leave your back yard then you don’t
know what’s out there and you can’t really relate to people because it only what you know and a lot of
Page 7
�times what you don’t know and what people don’t know scares them and therefore they shy away from
it or sometimes people make fun of what they don’t understand or don’t know.
CHRISTINA: Do you see any changes being made in your community in regards to the minority groups
that are here? Or are they accommodating them better?
MIRTA: Well I think, you made that reference to them calling themselves “the brown group”. I think as
the kids have become more outspoken, which is a good thing, they feel more comfortable about
themselves that they can be outspoken. That kind of brings the attention to themselves but in a
humorous way. They are talking about themselves...
CHRISTINA: But not taking themselves to seriously?
MIRTA: Yeah, and so that other people can see them. Instead of them fading into the wood work
because they don’t want any attention brought to them because they don’t want to be made fun off or
they don’t want to be whatever the reason may be. By them pushing themselves in the fore front,
they’re trying to make a stand that, “Yeah we are different in these ways, but in other ways we are the
same as you”. I do think though that sometimes people mistake when you say something, I don’t want
to say criticism, but people get offended if you say something that you do not like about this country or
something in that f... as soon as they know that your not from this country they take offense. When
really every body has their opinion. I mean, no country, no place that you live can be totally perfect. So
there is always something, o this is great but you if you could improve this it would be even better. Its
healthy criticism. And I think sometimes people take offense when you say something like that, because
right away they want to say “well you don’t have a right to criticize, you shouldn’t say anything.” They
might have thought the same thing but they don’t want to hear you say it. I remember when I was in
school my sister was in high school and they had a civic project. The class project was that they had to
write about/find something that they did not like about Detroit. What problem Detroit had and what
they could do to fix it, and Connie wrote about the pollution in Detroit, meaning pollution of the garbage
and how the streets were littered and what they should do and how they should clean them up etc. I
remember it was an evening andthe principal and the pastor of our school knocked on the door and the
principal basically told my sister if she was so unhappy with Detroit and if she thought it was so dirty or
had so many problems then maybe we should go back to where we came from. Because if we were
criticizing it, then clearly that meant we weren’t happy here and we shouldn’t be here. And first of all I
found that to be really rude andoffensive because my dad said to the principal “and are you going to
everyone’s house that wrote that paper because that was the class assignment, to find a problem and
talk about it and how you would correct it.” And surely they didn’t go to everyone’s house they only
went to our house because we were Cuban and not America so we had no right, according to them, to
criticize this country. And I just found that to be first of all, in bad taste. You were supposed to be
religious people, and that was intolerant and it showed their intolerance. And second of all, if you didn’t
want anyone criticizing you country, you shouldn’t have made that assignment, that what the
assignment was, so in that case I thought that was a definite case of discrimination, they didn’t like what
we had said so they came.
CHRISTINA: And they personally picked you out?
Page 8
�MIRTA: Yeah
CHRISTINA: Is America what you would expect it to be? I know you don’t remember when you came
here, but is the image of America, you know, you’re told the melting pot, everyone is mixed together, it
is the land of the free, home of the brave, there is opportunity and jobs. Is that what you see it to be?
What they tell foreigners is the image of America that what you see it to be?
MIRTA: Yes. I believe that you can come to this country and make something of yourself. There is people
that leave for religious persecution, people that leave because of the government, which was the case
for us. We left a year after Castro took over, because my dad had already been following closely enough
to know that he was steering toward communism and he knew it would only get worse. It was bad when
we left but it only went down hill from there and he didn’t want his children raised in that environment
so he chose to leave and try to make a better home and a better life in a new country and that’s what he
in turn did. I do think that other nationalities and other groups of people can be very successful. For
instance, there’s different kinds of communities that have come up and have become very successful. If I
talk about the Cuban community, the Cubans made Miami what it is today. Miami was a little city no
one knew anything about. Older people went there to retire and that was the extent of that. Cubans are
the third highest minority in education and social economic status. Turning Miami into a Little Havana
and opening up all of their little shops and businesses. They have a Cuban mayor and a Cuban governor.
That pushed the city to become famous in all the things that it did. You had Miami Beach that was just
strictly a beach that people went to and then what did they do? They turned it into a little jazz area, with
little shops, and different Cuban establishments, so yeah, they became very successful and to them that
was the American dream. They became successful and they still had part of their culture and they also
became Americanized and used part of the American culture but they made that successful and made it
there own and they started that whole Calle Ocho, which is 8th street, their little festival. And it started
out as a little festival, and as it got bigger and bigger the recruited big names in the jazz community, in
the rock and roll community. The Cuban stars as well as other stars and made a name for themselves
and kind of opened it up to the world to say “hey, this is who we are and this is what we are about, to
learn about it.” It’s a free concert, yeah people go around and buy food and souvenirs, but you got all
these big time musicians that they would bring in that were, whether they were jazz or singers,
whatever they were that were big names kind of taught a little bit about there culture to the rest of the
world.
CHRISTINA: So you would say that the American dream is obtainable to those that are not American. It is
a possibility; it’s not just something that the Americans just throw out there to get you to come over?
MIRTA: No it takes a lot of hard work and it takes dedication and you can’t have the mentality of “you
owe me this” and getting free handouts. You know a lot of these people started out small with low
paying jobs and they just kept working and earning trying to get to the next best job and just kept
working at it until they made it a success. I’m sure it was a lot of hard work, but it was like anything a lot
of them went to school and just new that the more education they got the better it would be for them.
Page 9
�CHRISTINA: Would you say that when immigrants come to America they take on a new identity, new
cultural beliefs, just the way they do things? I know you mixed you Cuban tradition with the American
tradition, but do you think that they try to change or do they want to preserve their culture?
MIRTA: I guess it depends when they came over and what their feelings are. Depending on the
generation, there was the generation of the Italians who came here and were given a lot of problems
and so they didn’t speak Italian. I had a lot of friends, depending on when they came; their parents
wouldn’t speak to them in Italian so therefore they never learned the language. The parents spoke the
Italian but they didn’t want there kids to learn it because now they were in America they had to learn
English and they wanted to blend in and didn’t want to stand out because they were made fun of and
given a lot of grief because they were a different nationality. And while I understand that and
sympathize with that, I think that is really sad because then you are losing a vital part of who you are
and those traditions and those beliefs and that language is what your made of. It forms your basis, and
to deny that and to forget about that your kind of inhibiting your future, and your children because their
losing that richness. They’re not being exposed to the language. They’re not being exposed to that
wealth of tradition and culture that there parents where, and it’s wonderful to have these traditions to
be passed down form the grandparent, and great grandparent, and this is what we do and believe. Kids
love that kind of stuff. Kids love to know the kind of things you did when you were a kid. I think your
short changing you children if you just think that because you’re here, you have to be so Americanized.
When you think about it, there really is no true American. The only true American is the Native
American Indian because everyone from this country came from a different country, like Ireland and
Germany. So there are all these different cultures and nationalities here that are blending and I think it
makes it richer when you can learn about all these different cultures. “0 wow this is what we did when
we were growing up. What did you do?” I just think it makes you a more well-rounded person.
CHRISTINA: Would you say minority groups are becoming more outspoken, and they are not just going
to conform to what everyone’s doing? They aren’t going to be forcing it down people’s throats but in
general, they want to preserve their culture.
MIRTA: I would say so because I think now we have so many and there are so many cultures and so
many different churches and have festivals, and downtown they still have festivals, like in Hart Plaza
they would have different festivals. People go down there and see the Polish festival and Arabic
festivals, and I think you learn about their food you learn about their beliefs. I think that opens up a
whole new world and I think therefore because of that, I do believe people are more outspoken. Of
course we have our times that there were some difficulties like after the terrorist attacks. I felt bad
because Arabic people were being singled out because they were suspicious because they could be a
terrorist which is not fair for them as a whole because you have a few bad apples that are ruining it for
the rest and so anytime there was anybody that looked Arabic then “oh my god lets look at them closely
because they might be a terrorist.” And it’s a shame that its come to that, but as well as I understand it,
sometimes that’s when people are scared, and we had the same things when there was the bombing of
Hiroshima and all of that. We were leery of the Japanese, depending on what happens we have those
times that I guess a certain minority group does gets singled out for being untrustworthy and suspicious
and I guess to an extent that will always happen I guess, depending on the circumstances.
Page
10
�CHRISTINA: So if there is one thing that you could change about how people view you or just minority
groups in general, what would you like to see happen?
MIRTA: I guess people should be more open minded, be willing to learn new things, be exposed top new
ideas. I remember when I was in 8th grade, and we were learning the metric system, one of the 8tI
grade students, was complaining, “why do we have to learn the metric system why don’t they learn our
system”, and I remember telling him “the majority of the world knows the metric system, we are one of
the only countries that doesn’t” and why do we have to learn a new language why don’t they just learn
English. When you think about it, most countries, besides aside from the United States, they know their
language and they know sometimes two and 3 others. They learn English and sometimes a third and
fourth language. I found that to be a really close minded mentality, that the world revolves around me.
We are super power therefore why should we have to do that? But as a super power, then we should be
able to know more languages, be more tolerant, and sometimes I think we are less tolerant. So I think
that if they could learn from that that then it would make them stronger and better, and because of that
they would be more well rounded and more tolerant and they would be able to get along better with
others.
END OF INTERVIEW
Page
11
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/99419e270d9df04fa39e80fa539e2b85.mp3
3ab50447ba16bfb65313ee95303a4f16
Dublin Core
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Title
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories
Subject
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Personal narratives
Oral histories
African Americans--Personal narratives
Gays--Personal narratives
Lesbians--Personal narratives
Bisexual people--Personal narratives
Transgender people--Personal narratives
Veterans--Personal narratives
Women--Personal narratives
People with disabilities--Personal narratives
Muslims--United States--Personal narratives
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Homophobia
Discrimination
Islamophobia
Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012.
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Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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2017-05-02
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audio/mp3
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eng
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Text
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GV248-01
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1930-2011
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GV248-01_McGee_Mirta
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Mirta McGee audio interview and Transcript
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McGee, Mirta
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McGee, Christina
Description
An account of the resource
Mirta McGee was born in Cuba and raised in the United States. She is currently an elementary school Spanish teacher. She discusses balancing Cuban culture with American culture, discrimination based on language barriers, and the differences between when she was growing up and her students now.
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Women--Personal narratives
Discrimination
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project
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2011-11-22
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6b6c94223593ef444dd1fbb5c600040f.pdf
86b056b10ddabb5a21be8d09deca3497
PDF Text
Text
Speaking Out
Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Interviewee: Christina McAllister
Interviewers: Philip Matro, Douglas Brunner and Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck
Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 11/7/2011
Biography and Description
Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She
discusses her interracial relationship.
Transcript
VANBIESBROUCK: My name is Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck and we are here today on November 7, 2011 and I
am Interviewing Dennis Jones and Christina McAllister about their experience of diversity in West
Michigan. Okay, Christina if you would give me some basic information about yourself like where you
grew up, your siblings, what’s your family like.
MCALLISTER: Okay, I grew up in Lowell, Michigan. It was kind of a farm town. I have six sisters. Both of
my parents came from...were married previously, had children, and then had me and my younger sister.
So lots of kids, all girls. I was raised in a Christian home, so church and religion and all that was part of
my upbringing. My parents were very conservative.
VANBIESBROUCK: And what ethnicity are you?
MCALLISTER: I am white.
VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, and when is your birthday?
MCALLISTER: May 29, 1989 and what else do you want to know?
VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good for now. Okay, Dennis, where did you grow up, what’s your family like?
JONES: I grew up in Waukegan, Illinois. It’s pretty much 45 minutes dead north of Chicago. I actually was
closer to the Wisconsin border. But I grew up. I am the youngest of four siblings and my older sister, that
is my half sister. My mom, she was in a previous relationship, marriage, and that’s where my oldest
sister came from and then me and my brother and my other sister are all from my mom and my dad.
Waukegan is kind of an interesting place. I lived on the border of two cities, Waukegan and Beach Park.
Beach Park is more of a richer area and Waukegan is like, I guess, the poorer side of the city and so I got
to see a lot of both areas, but I also grew up in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor from the time I
Page 1
�could remember, so he’s been doing that. And my mom grew up in a Christian home. Her dad was a
pastor. My dad didn’t grow up in a Christian home. He was kind of in and out of church and kind of doing
his own thing and then he was in the Army for awhile and then he got hurt and that is when he came to
know Christ. So he hasn’t always been a Christ-follower, but all my life I have known him as one. So I
ended up, I mean, I am black if you wanted to know that.
VANBIESBROUCK: Thank you.
JONES: No problem. So it’s been kind of funny. I have grown up around all different types of ethnicity
with being on the border of two cities with Waukegan and Beach Park. And then also being in the public
school system for awhile there from kindergarten til sixth grade and then I started going to a public
school from sixth grade on and then I was predominantly around Caucasians. And so it’s never been
anything new. Huh?
MCALLISTER: You went to a private school.
JONES: That’s what I said.
MCALLISTER: Oh, you said public.
JONES: Yeah, public from kindergarten to fifth grade.
MCALLISTER: And then private after that.
JONES: That’s what I said.
MCALLISTER: Okay.
JONES: I love you, too. This is my part of the interview. So, yeah, for the most part I have always been
around all different types of races so I have never been the type to kind of shy away from any type of
race or just somebody else because of skin color. And I grew up, I have mixed cousins. I had a white
cousin there for awhile before they got divorced, if that makes sense. Cousin-in-law. So, yeah that’s kind
of a little bit of my story.
VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, what about you Christina? Have you always been around Caucasians cause
you’ve been in West Michigan?
MCALLISTER: Primarily, yes. I went to a Christian high school that was close to Muskegon, which is a lot
of black people. And so we had a few black students there. I was not really good friends with any of
them. They weren’t the coolest people to hang out with. But my parents always raised me to never look
at color when you’re meeting someone, that you get to know their personality and who they are and it’s
their morals and qualities and characteristics that count. So even though I was not exposed to a lot of
different races, that was something very important to my parents because it was.
VANBIESBROUCK: So growing up, did you guys, like, what did you want your boyfriend or your girlfriend,
like what qualities did you want them to have and did you think about dating someone from a different
Page 2
�ethnicity? Was that part of what you considered or did you not even think about that when you were
younger?
MCALLISTER: Well when I was younger I never thought about that. I never expected to be with a black
guy because I didn’t really know any black people and I certainly was not attracted to any of the ones
that I did know. So, my ideal man was tall, dark and handsome which I ended up getting in a little
different form. Just kidding. So I guess the most important thing to me was someone who was hardworking and who was going to love me, who loves Jesus, and those are pretty much the most important
things to me.
VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis?
JONES: For me, I think it’s funny because just the way, ever since I grew up I was kind of the more
different one out of my family. “You’re so proper, you’re so this, you’re so that” which I thought was
funny. And they always would say, “Yeah, you’re not going to marry a black girl, or you’re never going to
be with a black girl.” And I was like, “Yeah I probably won’t.” So I always grew up knowing that I
probably wouldn’t date someone within my race or, I guess not knowing, but I always just. I never really
always looked at other cultures or other ethnicities before a black person or a black girl if that makes
sense. And it’s not like I had anything against them, it was just, I don’t know, being wired that way as a
kid and always interested in other cultures and other different looking girls. I remember like in fourth
grade, I really liked this Asian girl. That was kind of funny. So that’s never really been an issue for me,
like race or anything like that. But, like one of the main things I really grew up wanting out of a girl was a
Christian-based faith and grounded foundations in that cause that’s where my family came from, very
strong Christians, and just good morals and values about herself and someone that wasn’t, my mom
said, “Loose.” I never knew what that meant, but she always said it and I guess I know what it means
now that I’m older. So, that’s kind of my story of choosing a woman.
VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, Christina, could you tell me how you guys met?
MCALLISTER: Yes. We met at Cornerstone University, which is where we both went to college. Dennis
was a year ahead of me. It was my Freshman year, his Sophomore year. In the winter time, Dennis was
coaching...not coaching...he was helping out with intramural volleyball. He was reffing. And we had seen
each other around and stuff and I guess I thought he was cute for a black guy but I was not really
interested in black guys, so I never really thought about dating him but we ended up kind of hanging out
one night after or during the volleyball games and we had a lot of fun, we really connected. We just kind
of like, our personalities like immediately, like it was just so easy to hang out with him and have fun with
him and stuff. I guess that was the first time I was like, “Oh, I actually kind of like you.”
VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good.
JONES: I guess my version is a little different. I remember the first time I met her. We both played sports
at Cornerstone and it was near the training room and she was in there and I was getting my ankles taped
for practice and she was... I don’t know what she was doing. And I knew her friend Hellen before I knew
her and I saw Hellen and I was like, “Oh Hellen, how you doing?” And then in the hallway I met her and
she was like, “Oh yeah this is Christina.” And I was like, “Oh hey Christina, how you doing?” And the next
Page 3
�day I saw her and I actually forgot her name and I was like, “Oh hey, you. How are you doing?” And then
she was like, “My name’s Christina.” And I was like, “Yeah.” And from there I always thought she was a
cute girl and stuff like that but at the time she was kind of dating someone else and I was like, “Yeah,
whatever.” So I did not really think anything of it and it was a couple weeks later, a month later or
something. I don’t know, it was awhile after that and I was just doing the intramural stuff and I was just
hyper that night for some reason and then she ended up being around and she ended up falling to my
wrath of someone I started talking to. I talked to a lot of people and she ended up being that person
that night. I guess it was a blessing? I’m just kidding, it was a good thing.
VANBIESBROUCK: So like once you two started getting serious, were either one of you kind of
intimidated or scared or nervous about the fact that one of you is white and one of you is black? Or did
it just not even cross your mind?
JONES: Well for me it didn’t cross mine initially I thought this thing was never going to work out after we
had our first couple dates. We both thought we were just like “Alright this isn’t going to work out.” We
were really.., the night we met we really had a lot of fun and stuff like that and then when we went on a
couple dates it was just like, “Ooo, so..” and that kind of that awkward funk in the air. But as far as being
intimidated or anything like that with like race or color, it never crossed my mind initially at all until I
guess when I met her family. But that didn’t really bother me. Instead I always, even in high school, I was
always the minority so I was always around people of different color and so for me it was easy to just
bond and talk to other people and their families. Especially playing sports through high school, always
like around my friends’ families, like with my dad being a pastor, it was hard for my mom and him to get
out to games and stuff like that or make the long road trips cause they were always involved with church
and stuff like that so I always spent a lot of time with my friends’ families or would go over there before
practice and hang out with them and their family. So it was always easy for me to get along with a
friend’s family, so to speak cause it was just like, “Oh yeah.” It kind of reminds me of high school, so
even watching a lot of my friend’s family, like same thing in college with sports and stuff, my family
never got the chance to come out a lot, especially being away from home and playing sports. It was
always easier to connect with other families cause that was my family at the time, so me meeting her
family and being around her never really intimidated me.
VANBIESBROUCK: Same for you?
MCALLISTER: No, it was very different for me. Dennis was the first black friend I’d ever had and, really,
like a genuine friend and so it was really all I actually thought about really was that probably for the first
couple months. And I mean I really like Dennis as a person and it obviously didn’t stop me from dating
him but it was something I was very like unsure about. I don’t know, I was just curious, because,
something I really hadn’t hardly been exposed to at all. So, I stuck with Dennis for the first couple dates
cause I wanted to kiss a black guy.
JONES: That is exactly what she told me.
MCALLISTER: It’s really true. I’ve come this far, I might as well, get to the date where we kiss and...
JONES: She told me that after we had been together for awhile. It must have been a good kiss.
Page 4
�MCALLISTER: I had a lot of encouragement from my friends and people who knew Dennis that, “Oh, it’s
a good thing and it doesn’t matter about color, and all those things will work out.” So all the concerns I
guess that I had initially I had a chance to work through and process on my own. And then on my own
and kind of with my friends and people who knew Dennis. So by thetime a couple months in when I was
really...it was starting to get serious, I knew that I wanted to do it and was committed and that color and
stuff doesn’t really matter and those things that could be problems or something in the future, even if
they ended up being a problem, I was willing to, I guess, sacrifice or work through it or whatever. .
JONES: For me it was just like “Hey, let’s do this thing.” I didn’t like.., nothing crossed my mind about like
how people perceived me or if we got looks or anything like that cause it was just normal to be for some
reason. Just cause of the way I grew up, the people I was around, the school I went to when I was in high
school, being a private school, being primarily around white people and a few other races. But, I mean
for me, I guess it was normalized for me at a young age so it just never really bothered me.
VANBIESBROUCK: So what was your family’s response to each other or to you? Or their attitude?
JONES: My family didn’t care. They were like, “Oh, nice. Bring her around.” “Alright, if I can. Kind of
busy.” I don’t know. It didn’t... my family, it wasn’t an issue, it wasn’t a big issue at all.
VANBIESBROUCK: Was that partially because you already had people in your family who had already
been with white people before?
JONES: Yeah, that too. Plus our family background, it’s just always been, “It doesn’t matter,” especially
my mom’s side of the family. My dad, a little bit different, because he’s from down south. But with him
it was no big deal. It doesn’t matter, so I guess with my immediate family it was like, “Oh, that’s cool.
Make sure she’s the right one, make sure you’re looking for all the right things and not just dating her to
date her.” They were more worried about the person than the color.
VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. Christina?
MCALLISTER: My family’s response was a little bit different. Actually it was really surprising to me
because of the way my parents had raised me and taught me to be so open-minded to color and to
culture and that kind of thing. I waited awhile before I really brought Dennis home. We kind of don’t
bring a guy home unless you are serious about him. It is kind of the family rule. So I brought him home
and told some of my family I was serious about him. My mom especially definitely had some concerns
about us and our relationship. And that was probably the biggest hurdle as far as this stuff goes, with
the whole black-white thing that we had to get through. she...this was before she really got to know
Dennis, just kind of going off the whole color thing, basically.
VANBIESBROUCK: So like a stereotype?
MCALLISTER: Yeah, the biggest thing that tripped her up.
JONES: Always fighting the stereotype. I’ll tell ya.
Page 5
�MCALLISTER: Well it wasn’t really...it wasn’t really concerns like, “I don’t like a black guy.” It was mostly
the cultural differences and marriage is tough already and relationships are tough. And you are going to
have to think about your kids and what they are going to have to go through. And you have to think
about how it is going to put a lot more pressure on your relationship with something that is already
tough. And different...just adjustments between coming together and being married and we had only
been dating for a few months, so it was like we were jumping to marriage. But that is what we think
about long-term. Anyways, so... but she was just if we are coming from two different cultures to try to
bring that together and form a family that has a lot more stresses added to just coming t gether and
being a family. So those were their concerns initially. And that was really hard because at that time I was
preset on dating Dennis and I really loved him and I wanted that to happen. And my mother’s a very
stubborn woman, so my dad being the practical one, they both talked to me and said, “Well these are
our concerns about it.” And I told them, “I understand that. I think that things are changing. I don’t think
things are going to be as tough as you think it’s going to be. Dennis’s background is probably not as
different as you think it is.” So just kind of like I guess setting at ease some of their concerns. And then I
continued to date Dennis and do that relationship and that was...my mom has the My Way or the
Highway policy, so that didn’t really go over well for her, at first. She really thought the longer we were
together, the more it was kind of eating at her that this was a bad thing and she was so concerned about
all these things. So that was really tough for us because it got to this point where she was just like, “well
we don’t approve of this relationship,” and blah blah blah. So we had to get through that. And my
response was, “just get to know Dennis because I think you might change your mind.” And that is how
my dad responded, of course, because he is the practical one and the other side of it was Dennis. I think
it was hard for you to kind of go through that, but Dennis’s attitude was just that he was gonna just
show him who he was and try to win them over, I guess. And he did that. And now, my family absolutely
loves Dennis and can’t imagine him not being a part of the family.
VANBIESBROUCK: So, Dennis, how did you respond or did Christina tell you what her parents were kind
of feeling or did you kind of assume?
JONES: At first, I didn’t assume at all but then she told me. I was guess I was taken back by it because I
had never been in a situation like this. And for me it was like there was not much we could do. It is what
it is. And I think I remember telling her... she was...l remember one night she came to me and she was
crying, talking about how she was really upset with her mom and I said, “well, it’s okay. I will just prove
them wrong.” I think those were pretty much my words. And I said, “it doesn’t matter.” And I said “from
what I can see, your family’s great, but it was probably something they never had to deal with before.”
And I was like, my family this is not an issue at all. I reassured her that it’s... we don’t really care about
color. And my mission was to kill them with kindness and love and be myself. Like me her dad, we got
along really well initially and I think him, the way he acted around me and that way he accepted me was
kind of the biggest one, always the boyfriend4ather acceptance thing. And that was huge for me. And
then for her mom, it was just like it is gonna be a tough one but we can do it. So that one was just a lot
of work and I remember... now thinking back to it, I can see that there was times when she was a little
more kind of cautious and stuff like that. But now, it doesn’t even matter.
MCALLISTER: Now he’s the family favorite.
Page 6
�JONES: I am the family favorite which is pretty sweet. Usually they go through a ranking like, “oh, Pat,
Dan, Dennis.” And I mean, it’s usually, I’m at the top, so I take the cake.
MCALLISTER: The boys have a ranking system.
JONES: Yeah, usually as a family. Usually your youngest sister, her boyfriend always comes in last, but
we won’t talk about that. But usually I finish at the top. The only reason I am in second right now is
because the oldest daughter had kids.
MCALLISTER: Can’t compete with the grandkids.
JONES: I can’t compete with the grandkids. But I am a damn close second. We usually talk about it
sometimes too, me and Pat.
MCALLISTER: That is ridiculous.
JONES: Pats really fighting hard for the first place but I can’t do anything about the grandkids. Just give it
a while til we have our kids, we’ll be in first.
VANBIESBROUCK: So for a while it was kinda like they just didn’t know you so they were hesitant, but
once they got to know you.
JONES: Yeah I think that was the big thing.
MCALLISTER: Yes. My dad grew up in West Michigan where there wasn’t a lot of diversity back in the
day. And my mom grew up in California where there was a lot of diversity but moved to Michigan when
she was probably late twenties early thirties so this a long time ago and things were really different
then. So the diversity she got exposed to was kind of more, I mean times were different back then a lot
more people were racists and had those kind of thoughts and didn’t accept people and were
segregated. So I think that their background and not being exposed to that was the biggest thing that
freaked them out. It wasn’t even necessarily because of the way they raised us they were definitely
always you shouldn’t think about people’s color it was definitely something that they were always
adament about but I think it was when it actually like happened and came to be that they were like
whoah, now what. So it just took a while but I think once they kind of got used to the idea and yeah get
to know dennis so.
VANBIESBROUCK: Were your friends kind of the same way?
MCALLISTER: I think our friends were..
VANBIESBROUCK: Well I mean most of our friends knew Dennis before from school.
MCALLISTER: Yeah most of my friends did know Dennis before
JONES: I think I knew most of your friends before I knew you.
Page 7
�MCALLISTER: Yeah. I mean everyone was really accepting, as far as friends. I don’t feel like anyone like in
our age group has ever been weird about it or concerned or anything it’s always like “oh yeah we love
you guys!”. So that was good, lots of support that way which is good.
VANBIESBROUCK: And your grandparents were the same way?
JONES: Well my grandma was the biggest one, she didn’t care who she was. My grandma was like as
long as she knows Christ, your fine with her. If you didn’t get out of there so my grandma never really,
she was the biggest one, she never saw color ever since I have known her she never cared. Her biggest
thing was, like I was saying we have a huge Christian background, it was Christ your good in her book or
even if you didn’t it’s not like she hated you but she definitely let know Jesus was the way type of deal.
She would sit out on her porch and talk to any and everybody that came by, like all the kids in the
neighborhood loved her, she was that type of lady. So color was never an issue she I mean she worked
for a white lady for a while if I’m not mistaken, like cleaning her house and stuff like that. So it was not
like slave labor or anything like that it was definitely like they were good friends and she just helped her
out like that. One of her best friends I can remember was a white lady.
VANBIESBROUCK: So like your parents and grandparents are they like the main reason why your so open
to different ethnicities or is that just how you are as a person?
JONES: I think it’s a little bit of both. I mean, my family has always told me I was different when I was
younger ha and they still tell me I’m different like they don’t understand me. Just because I’m a lot of off
the wall stuff but just personality stuff they don’t understand, like if you put me in the middle of a forest
with a bunch of Indians and ask I could probably start talking to them about a bunch of stuff haha that’s
just the way I am. So they don’t understand where I got that from because my dad is a fairly quiet man
and my morn is I don’t know she is kind of shy when she meets new people and stuff like that but for me
its just like whatever. I don’t know it’s a combination of the way I was raised and developing into a new
person.
MCALLISTER: My dad’s grandma is really quiet, she doesn’t say much but she has always liked you.
JONES: Yeah she has always been nice to me, she never really said anything. I don’t know I’ve always
been, unless she hates me and I don’t know about it.
MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she is really quiet, she doesn’t really say a lot but she has always been nice to
Dennis.
JONES: She gives me hugs.
MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she likes Dennis. You’ve never met my grandpa.
JONES: No I’ve never met your mom’s dad.
MCALLISTER: He married a very southern woman, remarried. My grandma died and then he remarried
this lady and I know she doesn’t approve of our relationship. She has never met Dennis and neither has
he but she likes to speak her southern piece about it. She’s kind of crazy. But um we had a family
Page 8
�reunion this last summer and Dennis met my great uncles and aunts, so my grandpa’s brothers and
sisters, were all there and then my uncles and aunts. Everybody like loved Dennis so, even my great
uncles and aunts, we talked about it like they are from anothergeneration they are all in their gosh
sixties seventies, no they have to be older than that now.
JONES: yeah seventies.
MCALLISTER: At least seventies some of them are in their eighties I think. So totally different generation
and we talked about it like it might be a little weird.
JONES: And my response was yeah I don’t care haha.
MCALLISTER: Yeah. but they loved him, he was there for the first like day or two and then first two days
and then he left because he had his own family reunion and the next day when Dennis was gone they
were all like Dennis is so great we really like him blah blah blah. My great aunt invited the two of us up
to her house in Canada so ha were gonna go up there sometime. But yeah, I was actually really surprised
with how accepting they were. Not that I would expect them to be different but just that generations
are different and sometimes you never know, people have these strange opinions.
VANBIESBROUCK: So like when you two were talking to your parents about each other what was the
first thing you told them like Christina did you tell your parents like the first thing you told them was it
Dennis is black or was that like the last thing?
MCALLISTER: No I actually didn’t really say that at all. I kind of thought that they would just be like that
they wouldn’t care at all. And that’s probably me being a little bit naive because of the fact that I never
had any black friends and here I am bringing home this black guy, yeah I really like I want to date him
haha. They of course are probably going to be like wait at minute. so no obviously I don’t even think I
told them that at all and then when I brought him home, they were like oh he’s black ha ha.
JONES: Yeah my family just assumed she was a different race.
MCALLISTER: Hahaha
JONES: They were just like, they knew like ah she’s white huh, and I was like yeah type of deal. But it
wasn’t a big thing it was kind of like family joking and fun but it wasn’t a big thing. They were happy,
they were pretty happy. They have never said anything about race or anything like that. But yeah, they
literally just assumed. “Hey morn I’m dating somebody”, “Oh alright she’s white huh”, “Yup” haha.
VANBIESBROUCK: So was it frustrating for either one of you, or Dennis for your family that Christina’s
family kind of had reservations about it?
JONES: umm
VANBIESBROUCK: Or about you two?
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�JONES: I actually, it was kind of one of those things I decided to keep to myself. I didn’t want my family
to pre-judge her family. Unless they asked I said something, my morn asked and I think that was one of
my biggest, or my mom’s biggest concerns, was them being accepting of me. And she was kind of like,
well my mom is kind of one of those conspiracy theorists I like to think. My dad was just like alright
make the right choices, see you later. My mom she will talk to me for 15 hours about the same thing. I
think her biggest thing was well how those things can go. Something happens with you and her and
they will blame it on you and try and go after you and I’m like mom it’s not like that at all haha, oh my
gosh she formulates all of these crazy things, its kind of funny but ridiculous at the same time. And that
was just her biggest concern, if anything big ever happened like what would they do, would they kind of
hold a grudge against me not only because I did something to their daughter their baby but it was a
black man that did it. So that was my mom’s biggest concern and I was like ahh it’s not that big of deal.
I’m not stupid I’m not gonna do anything crazy. If anyone breaks up she will be the one who breaks up
with me. I don’t know why I thought that haha but that’s just the way I thought of it.
VANBIESBROUCK: So like in the beginning of your relationship would you guys say you, was like harder
because her family was kind of hesitant or was it just one of those things where its something they
thought it might be hard whereas a Christian family might think it’s hard to dat a Catholic but you get
over it. Was it the same thing?
JONES: In a way. I think it was mainly for me, her parents. I wanted to make sure her parents were ok
with me and winning her parents over. Her sisters were, they just didn’t care. They were like oh yeah
he’s great type of deal, and so for me it was just her parents. I just wanted acceptance of the parents.
MCALLISTER: I mean it was hard for a while. But they did get over it and pretty quickly. And my family
really does love Dennis now.
VANBIESBROUCK: So is it weird going to a white household for a while, have you learned any new
traditions or like weird things that your family doesn’t do?
JONES: Haha yeah there are a few, I can’t name them, but there was one thing I don’t know. Like just, I
guess Thanksgiving we call it “soul food” haha. We call it dressing, what you guys call stuffing. And I
remember my mom, like parents told me “your like a chameleon you can take on the attitude and shape
of anybody your around. If your around Mexicans you will somehow try and speak Spanish. Or if your
around white people how to talk like a white person and be like a white person. If you’re around black
people, you may not know how to talk like a black person but how to sound like, bionics, be around
them and how to hold a conversation”.
VANBIESBROUCK: Like fit in.
JONES: Yeah. And then so I don’t know I went home and like unconsciously I was like yeah I’ll get some
stuffing and my mom goes “what did you just say”, I was like “ah I meant dressing sorry”. Haha like I
know it’s a taboo but just simple things like that with food and stuff. I don’t think like cultural things. I
think this is funny, like, face towels-we use face towels all the time at home to wash up and take
showers and stuff like that and every time I’m like you don’t use face towel? No I don’t need a face
towel why would I need a face towel to wash up, a face towel is for your face. That’s kind of one
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�different thing, and they are like you picked that up off those white people. I’m like no I didn’t I’ve
always been that way! Anyway. I think that for me is just kind of
the funny things.
VANBIESBROUCK: Any for you?
MCALLISTER: Yeah. The first time I went to Dennis’s house it was really crazy. I couldn’t understand
what anyone was saying like the whole time I was there. Well his dad has a really deep, southern accent
so he is like impossible to understand, well he was at first.
JONES: I’m like the only one that can understand my dad. Most people, like my brothers and sisters,
after he comes back from being down south they can’t even understand him. But for me it’s like oh yeah
I’ll go get that for you and they are like what did he say? So I knew my dad would be a tough person for
her to understand in the first place anyway.
MCALLISTER: Yeah but , it was definitely like a lot more of a culture shock than what I thought it was
going to be because like spending time with Dennis I knew his habits and things like that about him but
he is like a white black man and I didn’t really realize his family is not that way haha.
VANBIESBROUCK: How long had you been dating Dennis before you met his family?
MCALLISTER: Four months. So, gosh I can’t remember. Yeah it was hard to understand them, they
always liked to talk about past experiences and like family stuff. They have all these like family stories
and secrets, not like secrets but jokes or whatever. And so I like didn’t say very much at all the first time
I was there and um, and then we went to let’s see, we went to their church and that was really crazy
haha. Um I had never been to a black church before and it was very interesting. It was really loud,
everyone was singing and dancing. Lots of amen’s and thank you Jesus, lots of that kind of thing. I had
never seen his dad talk like that before.
JONES: Yeah my dad is super quiet at home, doesn’t say much, but when he talks its like very profound
and so wisdom filled and your like man! And then when he gets in front of the pulpit he will talk for
hours and hours upon end and your like shut up I want to go home and watch the bears game.
Sometimes by brother and I will sit in the back and kind of give him the cut throat like you need to stop.
MCALLISTER: Ha well it’s not just talking he like goes on rants.
JONES: Yeah he takes a lot of rabbit trails when he’s preaching so she was like I didn’t understand a
word or I didn’t understand the message at all.
MCALLISTER: Yeah it was very different. I was used to like teaching out of scripture he was just going on.
VANBIESBROUCK: Or like an outline to follow?
MCALLISTER: Yeah, which I later learned that’s what they do in their bible study. They do that before but
the service we went to, I don’t know, was like a praise and worship service. That’s what it seemed like to
me.
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�JONES: A lot of church in my family growing up, they have so many different services I can’t even
remember them all its crazy.
MCALLISTER: So that was probably the craziest thing that I experienced first.
JONES: That was my biggest fear, was taking her to church with my family. I still am like I don’t want you
going to church with my family) don’t want you to like run away haha. Seriously.
MCALLISTER: (didn’t’ run away, I was clapping and singing and I got really into it!
JONES: I still am afraid to take her home, to church and we’ve been dating three and a half four years.
VANBIESBROUCK: So that’s not the type of church that you would want to go to as a couple? Or Dennis
you just like white people’s church better?
JONES: For me, it doesn’t bother me I just want her to be comfortable because I’ve seen everything
being in a black church. So I think for her (just want to see her comfortable and I can pretty much fit in
with any scene. I like the church that we go to now.
MCALLISTER: We go to my family’s church now.
JONES: That was funny, I was terrified to bring her home. I was like man I don’t know what my family’s
going to do, they are going to embarrass me. (think that was my biggest thing rather than race I was like
I hope they don’t say anything stupid.
VANBIESBROUCK: Did they make jokes about Christina being pale or anything?
JONES: My mom made a couple of jokes.
MCALLISTER: Yeah actually the first time I was there they did. It was funny.
JONES: My family is very like joking, like we make fun of each other all the time. I think that’s typical
with a lot of black families. That’s kind of how we express our love. We just make fun of each other
haha. Like me and my brother, we never really tell each other I love you but it’s kind of one of those
things . Me and him always grew up making fun of each other, my sister too. Like I’ll call her and be like
“hey what’s up ugly how you doing”, she’s like “oh hey stupid” its just like oh ok like understood that we
love each other. Even bringing in the way I grew up, that was kind of one of the tougher things because
my family doesn’t really express a lot of love and we’re not like super touchy feely. And that was actually
kind of the way I was raised and seeing my dad express his love for my mom and that was tough
because that’s what I grew up around and thought it was normal, apparently it’s not. I mean not that it’s
not normal but a different way of, like I would show her my love through just acts and stuff like that.
MCALLISTER: Slapping me on the shoulder ha.
JONES: Yeah and uh for her it was like “why don’t you tell me you love me, why don’t you do this for me,
or take care of that for me”? And I’m like what I thought I was showing you I loved you. So I think it was,
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�just being around that too growing up, was kind of one of our tougher hurdles. Learning the love
language.
VANBIESBROUCK: So was it, I mean is Christina like anybody else you’ve dated before?
JONES: No actually. I don’t think I ever really haha.
MCALLISTER: Normally he is really into chubby blonde girls haha.
JONES: That’s not true at all! Couple blunders in my dating career but I got a couple lookers in there. I’ve
had some good-looking girls, maybe not dated them but hahah but it’s not a big deal. You haven’t had
quite the greatest dating career in your path either have you.
MCALLISTER: I’ve had lots of great guys.
JONES: A lot of questionable decisions there huh. No but I forgot the question haha.
VANBIESBROUCK: Ha, if she is like anyone you’ve dated.
JONES: Ah no she’s not. Totally different from any other girl I’ve dated.
VANBIESBROUCK: Personality-wise?
JONES: Yup, personality-wise, yeah real different. And I think that’s what drew me to her. I was like oh
she might be a keeper. And then haha, also the also her faith and everything. That was something that
really kind of got me. My mom was like “if you find a girl that believes in God and trusts in God that’s
really rare in this world now a days and she’s like if you find a girl that, you need to keep her”. And I
remember those words. And I remember one time I was home for a holiday and my uncle who, which I
thought was kind of funny, was kind of a ladies man and like kind of a player/dog. And he was just a dog,
dirty dog, but I love him. He was like “well son I’ll tell you one thing, if you find a girl that can make you
change then that’s a girl you need to keep” and I remember those were two big things that made me
really search in her to make to be like is this someone I want to keep in my life and marry. And I still can
say I hold true to those words and she has definitely lived up to those.
MCALLISTER: Aww
JONES: Oh geez now I’m getting mushy haha.
VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis is nothing like a guy you’ve dated before?
MCALLISTER: no not really. He is a lot different I guess, there are certain traits that are similar to certain
guys but I guess overall in general he is pretty unique. obviously I’ve never dated a black guy before so
that was new haha. I guess the things that I liked about hirn was that he was always really friendly,
outgoing, really easygoing, really easy to get along with. Probably, the guys I dated before were a lot
rnore emotional and like crabby.
JONES: She liked pretty boys and skinny Jean type guys
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�MCALLISTER: No I didn’t
JONES: Yes you did. You liked the emo kids.
MCALLISTER: That’s not ever true. I never even dated an erno guy. I dated a country bumpkin, and an
athlete. That’s pretty much it.
JONES: doesn’t count as an athlete. Hahahaha.
MCALLISTER: He doesn’t count as an athlete. He doesn’t count as anything. I didn’t even put his narne
on this recording.
JONES: She can ‘X” it out. Hahahaha
MCALLISTER: anyways, yeah I forgot the question.
VANBIESBROUCK: So I guess like, you guys’ personalities kind of trump the fact that, that you are
different ethnically?
JONES: Yup
MCALLISTER: Yup definitely.
JONES: for me yup.
MCALLISTER: yeah.
JONES: I would have to say, that is definitely the biggest part for me that was the biggest one.
MCALLISTER: Our families met this summer.
JONES: Yeah thats wierd that our families actually met for the first time after, well being so far away
and, being 4hrs. away is always tough to try and coordinate something, yeah.
MCALLISTER: Both busy.
JONES: Yeah are families met for the first time this summer it was, I though it went pretty well.
MCALLISTER: Yeah it went great. My ah,
JONES: My mom was kind of quiet, kind of I thought. My Brother does, he always talks. He did a lot of
talking. I kind of wanted him to shut up, but thats fine. You’ve met my brother before. Like before you
met my whole family, you met my brother. Cuz he was running track and we went to one of his track
meets in Grand Rapids. It was me, you, ted and Hilary. It was, never mind I won’t put that on tape. I was
going to say it was the first time I farted in front of you. Hahahahaha.
MCALLISTER: oh yeah, umm.
JONES: It prolly caught it. Hahahaha
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�VANBIESBROUCK: Probably.
MCALLISTER: No it went, it went really good. I think we both were a little bit nervous for. I mean my side
of the family with our history and then. Even, even with Dennis’ family, like his mom is pretty quiet and
can be kind of, I don’t know, introverted I guess.
VANBIESBROUCK: Like she knew how your family felt about it?
MCALLISTER: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know that that was really a concern at that point.
JONES: I don’t know, My mom is kind of, I, I don’t know.
MCALLISTER: maybe.
JONES: It could have been. I don’t know. I can say that my mom kind of does have a tendency not to
forget things. That could have been it. But my dad he’s just naturally quiet so he wasn’t going to talk
anyway, unless.
MCALLISTER: He, he was talking.
JONES: but yeah, yeah he was talking. I think he is more worried about if, His biggest thing is if people
can understand him. He, He’s got a little bit of a slur. When he grew up, he had a slight speech
impediment, and his brothers kind of had to translate for him alot. So he, he is very conscious of the way
he talks and stuff like that. So my dad is a little more quiet unless he is over the pulpit which it should be
reversed. Um and then my mom she is usually very outgoing. But she is very shy when she meets new
people or is in a new setting and she is. First of all she is deathly terrified because she thought we were
going to go out on a boat and she hates the water. And she was terrified that they had dogs, and she
hates dogs. And I’m like you are ridiculous. Like my dad he doesn’t care about dogs, but my mom is “Oh
my gosh they got dogs can you ask them to put them away”. I was like mom, you’re going to visit over to
someone’s house are you going, Luckly, I know them well enough to where they would do this for us and
I was like I’ll ask ‘em. And so for me I was like you have all these reservations and questions, ugh. I think
they briefly met at my graduation, but it wasn’t like for an extended period of time. Everybody was kind
of out in their own worlds. So. But.
VANBIESBROUCK: Didn’t your mom say something that was..
MCALLISTER: oh yeah (Laughter) First of all, what did she get, yeah she got orange pop, I told her, she
was asking what, well do they like to eat? What do they like to do? And I told them like, Dennis’ mom
don’t do a lot of water sports, she’s afraid of the water. She doesn’t like dogs also, so we put the dogs
away and all that stuff. And then she’s like what do they like to eat? Well, they eat a lot and they like
just about anything but, I was saying a few things that I knew that they liked that we had before, and I
was like they like grape drink. I know it’s a stereotype but they really do like it. So she went out and
bought orange pop, she didn’t even buy the right thing. And then at dinner she was giving drinks to
everybody she’s like “Christina told me that you guys like orange pop”. And I was so embarrassed...
JONES: She said “you guys”. I was like aahh.
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�MCALLISTER: I mean, no one was offended but it was funny.
JONES: She is very hospitable and nice. And her mom just has a tendency just to say things, and that was
just one of those things. That was pretty funny. I was just like “ooohh..’
(laughter)
MCALLISTER: My niece and nephew loved Dennis’ mom. They were snuggled up to her for most of the
night.
JONES: Yeah, Cameron, he was just sleeping. Maddie had a ton and ton of stories for my mom. My mom
didn’t understand a word she was saying probably. But... and then she was like “ooh this is the little
baby you always talk about.” And I was like yeah, she’s adorable. My mom used to run a daycare so she
really loves kids.
VANBIESBROUCK: So after they met, did either one of your parents tell you “Oh, I was expecting it to go
this way, but it was really great, or...”
JONES: To tell you the truth I haven’t really talked to my parents. Or, I’ve talked to them since then, just
haven’t asked my parents what they thought. My brother and my sister were like “Oh it was really great
I loved it, it was really good to sit down and talk to them and get to know them a little better.” So my
brother and my sister were excited and happy about it. I guess I should probably talk to my parents. I
think it went good, in my opinion. I don’t know, maybe I’m overlooking stuff. But I thought it was good.
Sounds like a business meeting.
(laughter)
MCALLISTER: Um, no, my parents were good. I think my mom was nervous about... She was nervous
about having people over anyways... And I think she was nervous aboutJONES: “My house is a mess, oh my gosh!”
MCALLISTER: -Yeah, I mean, impressing them, well not impressing them, but making them feel
comfortable and welcome. like a hostess I guess. She’s like that with everybody. But I think because it
was Dennis’ family she felt a little more pressure. So, I don’t know. I think it went really well though. My
mom said “Oh Dennis’ family is so nice and it was so nice to spend time with them.” That’s pretty much
what everyone in my family said. So she invited them back up for another time.
(Laughter)
VANBIESBROUCK: -For more orange drink...
(Laughter)
MCALLISTER: Yeah for more orange drink, and for a ride on the lake.
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�JONES: My dad would go, but my mom would just freak out. She’s like “we’re not going on the boat
right?” I was like I told you three weeks ago that we’re not going on the boat. I don’t need to tell you
again, If do i might take you on the boat just to scare the crap out of you.
(Laughter)
VANBIESBROUCK: So have you guys noticed that whenever you go out on a date or you go hang out with
people have you noticed that people treat you different? Or do the people that you see in restaurants
and stuff, they just don’t care?
JONES: To me, in my perspective, I don’t know about Christina, but to me the people in west michigan...
I don’t know, I guess it depends on the area, where you’re at. But most people it doesn’t seem like they
really care. I don’t know we’ve never really received any snide remarks, I guess a couple of whoops from
black girls. Like “what is he doing with her?”
(Laughter)
VANBIESBROUCK: They’re just jealous.
JONES: I don’t know but when we’re out, I guess I never really pay attention to people. This is just who I
am, I always keep my head down when i walk and i’ll put my head up when i see someone, kind of make
eye contact. But, I don’t know. I always keep my head down or look at her when we’re out and walking
and stuff like that. And then I think with society and the way we were raised and our generation, it’s
normal. So I don’t think a lot of people care.
VANBIESBROUCK: Yeah, so you expect it more from older people.
JONES: But yeah now i think that even more older people are starting to say “Ahh, what the heck it’s no
big deal.” I mean if I went down south I’d probably get lynched... (Laughter) No I’m just kidding, I’m
kidding. That was a joke, totally too far, I know.
VANBIESBROUCK: What about you Christina? Have you noticed...
MCALLISTER: No, I don’t notice those things at all anyways. But , I definitely haven’t noticed anything
like that.
JONES: I don’t think we’ve ever received like a...
VANBIESBROUCK: We’ve had a lot of people like, well, in church, Dennis is the only black guy in our
church (laughs). And I was actually kind of nervous about that. Because. Not nervous that it would go
badly but nervous that he would feel uncomfortable or awkward. But we had so many people come up
to us and like “Hi, so nice to meet you” and whatever. And people who know Dennis now love him.
We’re helping out in the youth group now. The leaders are all about him and the kids all love him, I think
it’s cool he’s black.
JONES: I think it’s funny, the youth retreat we went out on it this weekend. And I think just like being out
towards Grand Haven/Spring Lake area there’s not a lot of black people. But all the kids were kinda
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�telling jokes and I tell a black joke and they’re all like (gasp) and I’m like “no it’s okay, you can laugh!”
And they’re like “okay!” (laughs) To me honestly I think it’s hilarious when people are really cautious
about saying black or african american... I could really care less. I remember like for me, I don’t know
why they see it as a challenge and they’re like “Oh yeah, let me go talk to him” (laughter). Like we were
just at a wedding and the guy goes “yeah my grandma, she’s kind of racist.” And I go “really? Can I meet
her? Like I want to talk to her.” And he’s like “sure but I don’t know...” I was like “I don’t care, I want to
talk to her and just see what happens.” Like that’s just really, I guess I kind of see it as a challenge. And
(laughs) I don’t know, that’s just kind of my attitude toward everything. Like I mean, to me it’s like I
don’t see any reason to put skin color above a person. So, I don’t know. Ever since I’ve been growing up
between me and my group of friends we’ve always got racial jokes and stuff like that. Not just about
black people and stuff like that but about other races obviously it’s joking amongst friends and stuff like
that (laughs).
VANBIESBROUCK: So Christina you mentioned how your mom was saying how it would possibly affect
your kids. Have you guys talked about that? Or do you think it would even be an issue in the years to
come?
MCALLISTER: Um, I mean we’ve talked about it, But I don’t think it will be a big issue. I think that the
longer we’re together, the less that I see color in Dennis and the more I see just us in our relationship.
And those fears just kind of fade away as we’re kind of bringing our lives together and as we’re deciding
how we’re going to, as a couple, raise our kids. And i think that’s kind of everyone’s concern is just
making sure that we raise them how we wanna raise them and not really worrying about race. Because
if we bring them up right then it’s not even going to be an issue. So I guess that’s kind of... We make
jokes about, “well what if they marry black kids? Or what if they marry white kids?” (laughs) But , I don’t
think it would matter either way for us.
JONES: No. I guess to me i kind of see that it is, nowadays, you always see mixed kids. I mean when I was
growing up in public school I was always around a ton of mixed kids. you get the looks like “man why are
your eyes green and your hair is kinda course like a black person?” (Laughter) Or like, those types of
things you wonder. But growing up around it and , seeing it more prevalent, in Hollywood and more now
around our age, and once we’re starting to recognize the differences in people... It doesn’t really dawn
on me what will my kids think. To me, they’ll fit in just fine.
MCALLISTER: People have talked about as mixed kids, do you identify with the black culture or the white
culture? I think the cultures are mixing in together a little bit more. And I think our focus is just going to
be on raising them in I guess a culoture that we feel is healthy and right and appropriate. And hopefully
they won’t identify with... Hopefully they’ll be chameleons like Dennis. That they’ll feel comfortable
around anyone and everyone. that they won’t see that. They will just see people.
JONES: I think more or less, once you stop focusing on skin color you kind of forget. “Oh yeah I forgot
you were black. Or I forgot you were Mexican.” (Laughs) I remember in high school our coach was black
but he is married to a white woman and one day we had this huge team sleep over, kind of like a team
building thing. And we were going through their house and we were like “Oh yeah,” Like we saw a
picture of our coach, our coach was black, and we saw a
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�picture of him and his family and they were all like “Oh, yeah” It was one of those things that dawns on
me like it’s one of those things where you really see a person for a person, and not skin color. You really
do forget, to me I forget, and I’m like “oh yeah that is right, they really are different than I am.” Skin
color-wise.
MCALLISTER: I’m a little worried about our kids’ hair.
JONES: Yeah she’s always like “You’re gonna have to do their hair, ‘cause I don’t know how to do it.” Like
if it’s a boy it’s alright ‘cause I know how to cut hair. I’ll cut his hair right off.
MCALLISTER: That’s our biggest concern right now.
VANBIESBROUCK: Is hair?
(Laughter)
JONES: Yeah, I’ll have to teach her the ropes if they come out with coarse hair like black people. I’ll show
her how to do it. If they come out with white people hair that’s totally up her alley.
MCALLISTER: The poor girls are gonnna be hopeless.
JONES: Ah no, my cousins came out with good hair, with white people hair. I don’t know why we say
white people or black people hair. fine hair. Non-coarse hair. There ain’t nothing wrong with my hair!
(Laughter)
VANBIESBROUCK: So do you guys have anything that you would want to say to someone who was
against interracial relationships? Or is it kind of like you have to be in one to really understand?
JONES: Hmm.. Give it a try. No I’m just kidding. (Laughter) No I guess coming from, I mean I’ve had my
times were skin color is an issue and I’ve seen both sides where people accept you and people reject
you. And I think my biggest thing is , it may sound kind of cliché, but it was so long ago. like give it up. If
all you see is color then you’re just, in my book, just kind of lost. Of course that’s how society is raised,
that’s how society sees people, as their skin color. It’s stereotypes. But if you don’t get to know the
person then you’re doing yourself a big disservice basically by judging a book by it’s cover. If Christina
had never talked to me, she’s never been around black people, she’s probably just like he’s another one
of those ghetto people just trying to chase basketball dreams (laughs). But not me! I was ready to give
up basketball for crying aloud. But , it’s just one of those things where I think to me, this is how I see it.
You’re not doing anything to me, you’re just doing more harm to yourself by harboring that hatred and
harboring those feelings. To me, I’m fine. You can look at me all day and say “Oh my gosh blah blah” it’s
not doing anything to me. It’s hurting you more than me.
MCALLISTER: I don’t know, I guess with me it’s the same kind of thing. I haven’t had to deal with any of
that kind of stuff my whole life so I guess it’s not something I’ve been real passionate about. Haven’t had
a lot of personal experience, just in this relationship and with our families a little bit. I can say that when
my parents were having a hard time with it I told them that they just need to get to know Dennis. I said
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�“to me, this is worth whatever problems we might have because of this. This relationship is worth it.
that’s all.
END OF INTERVIEW
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�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/44cabebbd26511771c337b16da8e3465.mp3
c0c1ce94fa97fa75a004fc24da4c4e7e
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Personal narratives
Oral histories
African Americans--Personal narratives
Gays--Personal narratives
Lesbians--Personal narratives
Bisexual people--Personal narratives
Transgender people--Personal narratives
Veterans--Personal narratives
Women--Personal narratives
People with disabilities--Personal narratives
Muslims--United States--Personal narratives
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Homophobia
Discrimination
Islamophobia
Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012.
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Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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2017-05-02
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
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Sound
Text
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GV248-01
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1930-2011
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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GV248-01_McAllister_Christina
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Christina McAllister audio interview and transcript
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McAllister, Christina
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Matro, Philip
Brunner, Douglas
Vanbiesbrouck
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Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship.
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Women--Personal narratives
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Relation
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project
Date
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2011-11-07
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e9a07b39a329f3df5b77542164950cd.pdf
eef6390183fd8d95441cb33ba8580f0e
PDF Text
Text
Speaking Out
Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories
Interviewee: Fabiola Jimenez
Interviewers: Lucas Mosher, Kelsie Overhuel, Kyle Richard and Karly Stanislovaitis
Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 2/14/2012
Biography and Description
Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman who has been living in East Michigan since 1994. She
discusses how she feels as though she was never discriminated against because of her race.
Transcript
MOSHER: This is Lucas Mosher, Kyle Richard, Kelsie Overhuel, and Karly Stanslovaitis. We are at
Mackinac hall, on the grand valley state university Allendale campus, and it is February 24th at 4:30 pm.
We are interviewing Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman from East Michigan. So, Tell us your story.
Let’s start from when you moved from Colombia to Texas.
JIMENEZ: Yes, I came to the United States in 1971, and I was 12 years old. My parents sent me here to
live with my uncle and aunt, they stayed back home. And I went to school, to middle school, I started
the 7th grade. I did not go to the special school where there was bilingual education, I went to the
regular school in a separate school district, where there were no Hispanic children there, but there were
cousins, that live in that neighborhood. And so when I went to that school, they were pretty much the
few people who spoke Spanish were my cousins, but they were all obviously in other classes. I took
special classes, I guess, with the counselor, who taught me words in English from flash cards, but I also
attended regular classes with the other children in science, and math. Math was taught in a progressive
mode, where you worked on worksheets, and you advanced at your own pace, it wasn’t like a classroom
lead math class, unless there happened to be a group of kids working on the same subject. Through that
method, I was able to advance quickly through algebra, so I moved on to take algebra in the 8th grade.
By the time I went to the 9th grade, I was ready for geometry, and that didn’t seem to be an obstacle
that I didn’t speak English that well. I feel that having to be immersed along with the other English
speaking children, and not having a bilingual education helped me learn English very fast. And so I didn’t
need special bilingual education classes to be able to catch up, or move a long with the other 8th
graders and high school. So that’s how I finished high school in Texas. I got married in ’81, and we
moved to Michigan in ’94. Lucas was a year old. And at that time, I was already a nurse, I had gone back
to school and taken a nursing degree, a bachelors in nursing, and I worked in nursing all my life. And I
feel that it has never been an obstacle to have been Hispanic. I have never felt discriminated upon by my
employer because of my background. I have always obtained a job with my nursing credentials.
Page 1
�RICHARD: When you had first moved to Texas, did you find it difficult to learn English at first, or did you
catch on quickly?
JIMENEZ: I feel that I caught on rather quickly. I had help, I would bring my homework home, and of
course my uncle and aunt would help me with understanding what they wanted me to learn. The
Spanish teacher at school would translate the homework for me, and so I went home with some idea of
what I needed to do. I in particular remember my English teacher giving me almost special attention
with flash cards, and film strips, which I’m sure you don’t know what those are, but they were special
films that I could progress at my own pace that would show me words and pronunciations, and would
tell me little stories to help me read. I feel that it was maybe special to me, because I was one of the few
kids that did not speak English along with the other people. But when my uncle chose which middle
school to send me to, he didn’t send me to the neighborhood school where I went, which was
predominantly Hispanic, he wanted me to learn English right away, and so he sent me to the school
where there were fewer Spanish speaking kids, so I feel that I quickly made friends that spoke English,
and who helped me along. In particular, a funny story that I think that sticks in my mind is at the
cafeteria. You know the little milk cartons? They showed me how to open the milk carton; because of
course I did not know what “push up” meant. The combination where you open it like this (gestures)
and you push it up, so they showed me, that’s how you open a milk carton. Well it only took once for me
to learn the milk carton, but after that I knew what “push up” was. And so I had very kind people
everywhere I’ve been, in the states. With all the different communities and people I have found them to
be generous towards me, and they have taught me lots of things. I’ve never felt that they would
withhold knowledge or information or acceptance. So I have to say that I don’t feel that I have been
discriminated upon during my time here.
MOSHER: At what point in Columbia did your family decide to send you to Texas?
JIMENEZ: When you’re growing up in a 3rd world country, you don’t have the opportunity to go to
school, mostly for financial reasons, because school is not free. Especially your elementary school, and
your high school, and college is very expensive. In the states you are guaranteed that you’ll go through
high school, and your parents don’t have to pay for your school, they pay from taxes, and yet you’re
guaranteed that you’re going to be provided the education that you need, and if you’re smart enough,
and dedicated enough, you’ll be able to go to college if your parents have the money, they’ll be able to
pay for college for you, or you can get school loans and help from the government for whatever
circumstances. My parents felt that I would have better opportunities here, to go to school, and advance
further. My uncle and aunt lived here, and they did not have any children, so they asked if they would
be allowed to bring me with them, and so they were my guardians, my uncle and aunt, and they lived in
Texas. So I feel sometimes that maybe my parents; I used to think that they didn’t love me, or they
abandoned me, or whatever, but you pretty quickly grow up from those thoughts when you realize of all
the riches and wealth, that we live here in the United States, You know what I mean? There’s no war,
there’s jobs, there’s healthcare, there’s the opportunity to work, to go to school, and you can say what
you want and go do it. While in a 3rd world country, a developing country, you don’t have those
opportunities, you don’t. If your parents have money, and you are smart, and you work hard, you might
be able to maintain that level, but it doesn’t come easily for you independently to do it. You sometimes
Page 2
�have to know somebody, to give you the favor of having a job. You got the job because you know that
person. Or they are your friends. There’s a lot of… It’s who you know that gives you the job. Not because
you got it because you saw an offering in the newspaper, and you applied, and they go for the best
candidate. It doesn’t happen that way. And to get into school, is tough competition, because there are
limited resources. Here, if you didn’t get into a 4 year college, well you can go to a 2 year college, and
maybe bring up your grades so that next year you can go to a 4 year college. And you can go to college
all your life. Here I am, as old as I am, and I was able to go back to school, and right now I’m in school to
get my masters. In south America, if you don’t go to school when you’re young, weather you had the
skills, the knowledge, and the money, to pay for school, in your later years, you probably won’t have the
opportunity to go back to school. If you don’t have that opportunity when you are young, and take
advantage of it, it’s probably gone for you, the opportunity to go back to school.
STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that you had to pay for school, unlike you do here, before you go to
college, so are you aware of how much that was? Or how much it would have been?
JIMENEZ: Well it depends, because there are private schools, like kids that go to private schools here in
the states, and they are very expensive. And there are also other schools, like the Montessori schools
have a different fee, and pretty much it’s what your parents are willing to pay. There are public schools,
but there’s a lot of kids in those schools that they probably don’t have the best resources to provide the
best education. So if you can go to a catholic school, where the nuns will teach you, you’re probably
considered very well educated, by having been given the best opportunity to succeed.
MOSHER: What point growing up did your opinion of your parents sending you to America change from
resentment to sadness, to like, “oh, thanks for sending me.”?
JIMENEZ: When I went back home after high school, I went for a couple of years, and I realized that
what I had learned in the states was applicable in south America, but it wasn’t what I wanted, because
for a woman in a 3rd world country, when she becomes of marriage age, it is expected of her to marry
and have kids. And I didn’t think I was ready. To me, I still had school to go to. Because I wanted to go to
college, and I probably couldn’t have gone to college down there. So at the time I realized what they
really wanted for me was to have a better lifestyle, more opportunity that other people don’t have.
STANISLOVAITIS: Did they ever talk to you about that, or was it just something that you came to realize
on your own?
JIMENEZ: A little bit of both. We talked about it, especially after you grow up and you realize that your
sisters’ lives are not that much better, and that they probably would have been better, or different if
they had had the opportunities that we as women have here. That other girls don’t have in a 3rd world
country. We can make the decision not just of career, but weather we want to marry or not, weather we
want to have children or not. In other countries, you are told what you’re going to be doing. (Laughs)
Over here, we don’t, we can do many things, when we want. We can decide even who to marry, we
don’t have to wait for our parents to make the match, or for a man to come asking, we go look for one.
It is just different culturally, and expectations for women are different.
STANISLOVAITIS: How many sisters do you have?
Page 3
�JIMENEZ: I have lots of sisters, one of them had 3 kids, and another younger sister than me has 2
children. But they have also travelled abroad, for better opportunities. I have a sister that lives in
London, and of course she left Colombia, because of jobs, the economic situation is better for jobs and
financially. We don’t have that many resources that everybody can be guaranteed a job.
RICHARD: So when you finally decided that you were going to move to Michigan, what played into your
decision to move from Texas to a place like Michigan?
JIMENEZ: That was marriage. School, for my husband, dictated that we would move to Michigan, for job
reasons. At that time I already had my nursing degree, and it was very easy for me to get a job almost
through Internet and the mail, through a travelling nurse agency. I came to William Beaumont Hospital
in Royal Oak, as a travelling nurse, until we settled in Michigan, and figured out where we wanted to
look for a house. When we settled in Milford, Michigan, then it was easier for me to see what hospitals
were in the area, and I have worked in the area ever since we moved here. And it’s going to be 19 years,
18 years for sure. So it wasn’t like my decision, it was just like a family situational thing, that it was time
to move for job reasons, and so we did.
MOSHER: Would Michigan have been your first choice if you had just and option to go anywhere?
JIMENEZ: Um, you know up to the time we moved to Michigan we had the luxury, I guess, to travel
throughout the United States with being, you know, we’ve been in many states and every states has
special situations that I don’t think I would have been unhappy practically anywhere. You know what I
mean? I think that I would have found contentment, or satisfaction wherever I lived as long as it was in
the United States. You know what I mean? It just doesn’t matter, I mean the highway system makes
sense, we speak a common language, you know? We expect certain things so I don’t think I would have
preferred living in California or Florida or move back to Texas. Now I do have to admit that it took me a
while to accept living in Michigan. Right. Because you have a certain vision of things that you want your
life to be and it didn’t seem that at the beginning that it was going the way I wanted, I expected it. Ok?
Because we all have expectations. But after a while you realize it’s not bad at all. We have a job, we have
a house, we’re healthy. Lucas is going to school. You know and that kind of thing. You kinda settle into
the acceptance mode. That this is okay and now the weather doesn’t bother me. It was like yay snow! It
was time to get some snow. So it will be gone here, it’s gone actually and the tulips are going to bloom
soon so…I like it, I appreciate it now. I appreciate the fall and the summer, the apples and the cherries.
All those things I appreciate them more now. But it takes time for me to I guess mature and settle down
in the environment that you live.
MOSHER: So I guess it’s safe to say that you wouldn’t choose to live in any area other than the United
States?
JIMENEZ: Oh absolutely, Yeah, cause we’ve lived, I have had the opportunity to live in a third world
country and when we were younger we had the opportunity to travel to Europe and live in Europe for
nine months and it was not a good experience. There I felt discriminated.
MOSHER: Can you describe some of those instances of discrimination?
Page 4
�JIMENEZ: Overseas? Yes. Um, we lived in Belgium and they are a French speaking country and we lived
in the French speaking area of Belgium and we would go to the bakery and I would want a loaf of bread
and of course my French is not very good and I couldn’t make myself understood so I would notice they
would serve the customer who had walked in the door behind me first before they would attend to me.
So I assumed it was loyalty to the customer, that’s a regular well we had just gotten there. But no it
seemed to be a persistent pattern that I had to wait for the girl in the back to come and help me. Not
necessarily in English either. While here I feel that, in America if you go to the Japanese store or the
Korean store you can walk in and pick whatever you want. You got money and you are going to spend it
in my store so yay come in. Exactly? No they are not going to discriminate against you; you’re coming to
give the business so I felt somewhat discriminated.
MOSHER: Do you feel that that was in part to your Columbian upbringing or your language barriers?
JIMENEZ: I think it was in part language barrier and a little bit signaphobia.
MOSHER: So they just didn’t like outsiders?
JIMENEZ: They just didn’t like outsiders because I think they felt that there were quite an influx of
foreign students into the community that we were living in.
STANISLOVAITIS: Do you in general people there were maybe more hostile or maybe not as accepting as
people in America?
JIMENEZ: Yes, Yes I feel that they were not accepting and I feel that they were annoyed that we were
butchering their French roots and not speaking properly. MOSHER: This is kinda funny because earlier in
class we watched a video called “Black Boy” and it’s about Richard Wright, the author and in that video
he was talking about how he moved to France and actually really liked it because he didn’t feel
discriminated against there. So it was kinda funny hearing you saying that you felt discriminated there
and he saying he actually enjoying it more.
JIMENEZ: I don’t know people have different experiences and different perceptions. I know personally
that I wouldn’t want to live in Europe. For sure, I don’t want to live in Europe. I like my car, I like my
mobility, I’m comfortable anywhere but, so I don’t know. We all have different perceptions so I would
not move overseas. I don’t even want to travel overseas. I’ve been there so I don’t want to go. I mean I
don’t want to discourage you from going. I mean Paris is beautiful, London is beautiful and it’s definitely
an experience to behold, to be involved in it but I wouldn’t want to go. Brush that old city in Belgium is
beautiful and I appreciate their history but I don’t want to live there.
STANISLOVAITIS: Did you say that you valued having the experience knowing that that wasn’t what you
wanted and did it make you appreciate being an American even more?
JIMENEZ: Absolutely, absolutely because I can see what influences have made America what it is now.
So yes, I appreciate it very much. I like it here. I love it here. I don’t want to go anywhere. So but no you
as young people I encourage you to travel and see the world and experience it and formulate your own
Page 5
�opinion; don’t let anybody discourage you from going to Mexico. Mexico is beautiful. Columbia is
beautiful. They have their things to offer, experiences to offer.
STANISLOVAITIS: I feel like in America we are a little bit spoiled and we think that everyone has what we
have, but they don’t.
JIMENEZ: Yeah, they don’t have it and sometimes I feel that young people are like ingrates. They are not
thankful for the things that they have and they don’t appreciate it. So yeah do go, go and see how the
rest of the world lives and you’ll soon realize that you are very unique in your own self. Just because
you are in America because it makes you who you are and you are very unique and they’re the ones that
are “weird”. I didn’t say that. No but do travel if you get the opportunity to go on an exchange program
or go for the summer somewhere. Do go, absolutely. Don’t be afraid of it.
RICHARD: Earlier you had mentioned that you were a nurse; do you think you can tell us a little bit about
your nursing career and how you got into nursing?
JIMENEZ: Absolutely, it’s a great question. The thought of nursing was put into me by a teacher I met in
High School. She taught a class called Health Education and because I was a foreign student, Health
Occupations Education it was the class, and because I was a foreign student I was not able to work and
have a job and get paid cause I did not have a Social Security number. A little card with social security
number, I had a student visa. So my job was to be her assistant. She gave me the job to be her assistant
and I could take both classes, the first period and the second period and for work I would be her
assistant. Because the kids were able to work in doctors’ offices, dentals, at the hospital, clinic that kind
of thing but I couldn’t cause I didn’t have the proper documentation I guess for work permit. So she
guided me and told me that I should consider being a nurse and influenced me a lot in making that my
career so I always knew that that’s what I wanted to do or that’s what I should do. And to tell you the
truth I never imagined myself not being a nurse either, from her influences, and so that’s what I’m did. I
was not able to go to school right away after finishing high school but once I was able to return to the
United States I started taking classes at the community college, one class at a time, two classes at a time
because I had to work and pay for school at the same time. My parents did not have the financial
resources to say yeah go to Grand Valley, live in the dorm and we’ll pay your tuition. It wasn’t that way, I
had to pay for myself. And so I could only work a little bit and take a class here and there. Once I got
married it afforded me a little bit of financial freedom because of my husband’s job and income and I
was able then to pay for school and go full time and so I got my bachelors in science and nursing and I
worked as a critical care nurse for eighteen years. And I am now going back to school to get my masters
and I hope to get my nurse practitioner’s degree with an education certificate by 2014, so I hope to be
done soon. As in soon, in two years’ time goes by fast. So I hope that I’ll be able to accomplish that. But
yeah, I was influenced by a lady that I call mother, I call her mother. Her name was Evelyn and she
influenced me to go stay in a health career path. So I’ve been a nurse all this time. Never a day
unemployed for sure. I always had a job.
MOSHER: Before you met her what were your ideas of what to do in life?
Page 6
�JIMENEZ: What to do? I probably didn’t have any ideas. Just winging it. Yeah, I was probably was just
winging it. You go to school and you study and what not but I had taken a Child Development class and
through that class we had to have practicum hours and I went to an elementary school, a kindergarten
and pre-kinder and I was the teacher assistant with the kids and that seemed like fun so I thought
maybe I want to be a teacher but because this health occupations Education was also an elective class
that you could sign up for during High School. I did that and in that would discuss what a dentist does,
what a doctor does, nurses, pathology, lab tech and all the different careers in the health care and so I
knew that one of those would be fine for me. That I would like it, I enjoyed the Anatomy Physiology
component of the class. Talking about diseases and stuff like that so I think I would’ve chosen something
in medicine but nursing seemed acceptable. So that’s what I’ve done all this time.
MOSHER: Earlier off the record we talked about some people not understanding your accent over the
phone…
JIMENEZ: Mhm, I have to do some phone interviews for the patients are coming for procedures and
stuff and give them instructions prior to their procedures and at times I have to speak to people and it
hasn’t been often and occasionally I’ll bump into someone who is less patient and maybe my accent
comes a lot stronger or louder over the phone and they say I have a hard time understanding you. I
think it’s your accent or something and I say well I’ll have someone else call you, no problem there. It’s
kinda like did you not understand me or were you just not willing to talk to me? But what can you do?
STANISLOVAITIS: I know if you would’ve you decided you still wanted to live in Columbia and still wanted
to do in nursing do you feel that since you would’ve not really had that opportunity to get the education
that the quality of care that you would’ve given would be lower?
JIMENEZ: Since I was in South America when I was little I did not even consider even studying nursing.
But I did do, I took a certificate as a bilingual secretary and I started working as a bilingual secretary
because I had learned English in high school so that gave me a leg up instead into perhaps a business
degree or a business career in secretarial at work or maybe a hotel, tourism or something I probably
would’ve done that because of my bilingual ability. So I wouldn’t have considered nursing but if I had
considered nursing the quality would be according to their resources. And I know that many people in
South America they do have access to medication but they are not free. Is that like when you go to the
public health department? Have you ever been to the public health department? In South America you
have to pay for your…for everything, when you come to the hospital here women give you a bucket with
tooth brush tooth paste soap a towel…right, a bucket to puck in if you need to…right. When you go to
the hospital in South America you better bring those things with you or have someone bring them for
you including the sheets. And if preferably bring someone to stay with you to help you with your stay in
the hospital because there are few health care people who are skilled to take care of patents there’s
fewer medications right. And there is fewer resources. So it’s not as available as it is here. So I don’t
think that if I had stayed in South America in Columbia that I would be a nurse right now. More than
likely not. And probably…I would have had more than one child. (Laughs) I would probably have twenty
of them. (Laughs) I don’t know what the deal is but it would have been my choice definitely it be only
Page 7
�what I wanted. You know what I mean? My life would have been a little bit different. In a more male
dominated environment.
STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that your sisters, they still live in Columbia so like do you feel like they
because of all of the opportunities that you have gotten in America. Do you feel like they have any
desire to have the same opportunities?
JIMENEZ: Mhmm well yeah I am sure they have. I mean they’re not lacking. I mean they have a nice
house, a nice home they have families and everything. But like what I was telling you we all settle in to
what our fortune is and you accept it. You know what I mean? So I think they have been content, you
know my oldest sister you know she has her husband, her kids, they’re in their thirties their grown. You
know, she’s a grandma. You know I am sure she loves her grand children and stuff. You just kind of settle
in to you lifestyle, and make the best of it. You know? And make the best opportunity that you have,
she had a good job and her husband had a good job and it provided for their families. You know? They
took advantage of the opportunity that was offered to them at the time, but I don’t think that they had
the same choices I had.
*Pause*
JIMENEZ: So I encourage you to travel overseas or even in the United States. I encourage you to stay in
school and if your parents are paying for it take all that you can. (Laughs) And take advantage of it
because once you start paying for it yourself it is hard, it is hard to part with that money that you are
paying for by yourself. And it is difficult to work and go to school at the same time, it’s hard I mean I am
sure you have friends who work and go to school at the same time or who would like to be at Grand
Valley but they have to go to the community college because they can’t afford it or didn’t get student
loans. Or if they got the student loans [they are] already in debt to pay for the student loans. You know
what I mean? If you have a scholarship definitely take advantage of it. Stay in School. You know
prepare yourself because knowledge is something that nobody and take away from you. I mean that
goes where you where ever you go, it will follow you. You know? And you never know when you are
going to us it; you never know when it will become valuable for you. So…the opportunity presented
itself for me to go back to school right now so I want to go I want to do it so I always wanted to get my
masters. I am working on my masters right now. Very busy. The house isn’t clean, the kitchen isn’t
washed the dishes aren’t washed, but Lucas is not home so it can stay that way. You know so I like it
though I’m happy…I’m happy to be going to school now. It will be over April 15th so…just keep my
calendar of how many more days. I know you do too right? (Laughs) You know, so stay in school and
travel if you can now that your young, and you can see the world.
RICHARD: Could you tell us a bit about because you said you graduated high school and you went back
to Columbia
JIMENEZ: I went back to Columbia for two…two years maybe
RICHARD: Could you tell us what it was like when you finally came back to the United States?
Page 8
�JIMENEZ: Oh, it was wonderful. When I came back to the United States I lived with my brother who was
also living in Texas and after a couple of months I didn’t like living in his house because I needed to go to
school and what not so I called the teacher I told you about and told her I needed a place to stay and she
allowed me in her house. She was single, no children elderly obviously she was my high school teacher.
And so I lived in the house with her. And so while I worked and continued to go to the community
college I lived with her for a couple of years. And than shortly after that I got married. And I have been
married ever since. And that changed you know my life quite differently it became a different dynamic.
Where I still can go to school full time but I was able to go to school part time and work and start you
know the next step. You get married have children except the child didn’t come until thirteen years
later you know. (Laughs) It just happened that way but it was my choice it was a decision for me to make
you know what I mean it wasn’t my parent’s decision to make. So…
STANISLOVAITIS: I sound like you have always sort of valued being independent and to have.
JIMENEZ: Ahh your very smart, you are so smart. Yes and that is something that this this is funny. You’re
going to make me laugh because yes a thing a child would experience. I was raised. most Hispanics are
catholic. And for my elementary school I did go to a Catholic school. I was raised by the Catholic Church
in school. But when it came to Sundays my grandfather would take me to a Presbyterian church. Which
is a protestant faith. So during the weekend…during the week I was catholic but on the weekend I was
protestant. Right because I was going to the catholic school it came the time where the girls had to do
their first communion. Who any kind of Catholics? Are you Catholic? No, Okay but you know what a first
communion is they have the ceremony and it’s like an induction in to somewhat older girlhood or
adulthood almost. So I did my first communion and I did that without my parents consent. Because as
far as I was concerned they could go to hell but I not. So I did my first communion and how my parents
found out I found me a dress, the Vail, the shoes and somebody to take me up there to do my first
communion, because that is what we were learning in school. It is time to do your first communion and
this is why it is important to do it and dedicate your life you know say that you know are catholic. Now
profess your faith. Yeah I think I am I’m not going to hell. So I did my first communion and how my
parents found out was because the photographer brought pictures to the house to see if they wanted to
buy the pictures of the beautiful girl doing her first communion. So yes I have been very independent so
that’s an example right there. The other example I can give you about independence I can give you
about independence is my…piercing of your ears. You know some Hispanic countries they do believe for
children to have their ears pierced if they are girls the day they are born. You know? Mom already has
earrings in the girls ears, my mom didn’t do that to me she wanted me to wait until you know I was
fourteen or fifteen to get my ears pierced. No I didn’t wait I was probably seven or so my friend was
getting her ears pierced by her grandmother and I went and had my ears pierced without my mothers
consent. So yes you are very…very observant. Very smart. But yes I have been very independent
sometimes gets me in trouble too. So yes I have been very independent in doing my own thing and
that’s something you don’t…a luxury almost that most girls don’t have in third world countries to choose
you know, what classes they are going to take next semester. You know someone is always telling you
what to do whether it is your parents or your husband or somebody else. Yeah
Page 9
�MOSHER: What were your parent’s reactions to you going off and doing those things with out their
consent?
JIMENEZ: Well (Laughs) my mom bought the pictures so whatcha’ going to do you know. (Laughs) I have
a couple of them. She could not afford all of them but she did buy a couple of pictures and the other
pictures I remember the man being upset when my mom told him that she couldn’t buy all the pictures
and he tossed them in the street. You know she only bought two of them you know what I mean. I
have…I have…I have those pictures. And for my earrings I had to hear the lecture I told you so, I told
you so, I told you so, because they got infected. And so I had to do that, washing with soup and water
and put alcohol in that little thread in there so that …
MOSHER: to floss the little thing
JIMENEZ: Yeah yeah to keep the hole open. Yeah you know if I hadn’t done that it would have just
sealed back up but of course it got infected because I am sure the old lady that poked my ear probably
didn’t disinfect the needle. It’s probably old and dirty. You know she did my friends ears and than she
did my ears. So it’s like oh my gosh. So totally not clean technique, she probably didn’t even wash her
hands you know. But my mom was very prompt to remind me “I told you so”. But what not they healed
I got earrings (Laughs) So but anyway besides being annoyed and upset I think that she was also
supportive you know you can only control your children so much that’s the other thing as a parent I
have learned now. I can only offer my children the opportunity and than they have to make their own
decisions as to what they are going to do with their lives. So that’s it.
MOSHER: On a different not I know you met your husband Mark in high school, how did you do the two
years when you were in Columbia after high school?
JIMENEZ: Oh very good question. …letters. Mark would send me letters. Well Mark didn’t right me…I
don’t know maybe six months almost a year until he sent me the first letter in high school. And I think it
was because he bumped in to my cousin or something so he …got my address from one of them or I
don’t remember what happened but I started getting letters in the mail and because the mail was so
slow many times I would get two, three letters at a time. And I would try to send him a letter back. And
I have a stack of letters and so I started telling him to please number the letters that way I would know
that there was another letter coming. Because sometimes I think he spent his time in class writing the
letter to me rather than studying. Because many times it would be written in the notebook and on
notebook paper and than I feel that he would just finish fold it up put in an envelope and put it in the
mail. If he was not finished with the letter he would continue on another page, and so he would send
that one the next day and the mail…one would not catch up with the other and they would arrive out of
order. So he started numbering the letters. And you know I would try to keep them in order. So I have a
little stack of letters that Mark sent from the states, cards and that kind of thing. And the calling of the
phone was expensive. We didn’t have Skype there was no email no instant messaging. You know none
of those things that we take for granted now. I mean right now I could get on the internet with Skype
connection and call my sister you know and see her you know it’s kinda cool. We didn’t have that and
you know the phone it was expensive. And he had to tell me in a letter “ I’m going to try to call you on
this day at this time” and than I would have to wait and think, “Is he going to call is he not going to call”
Page
10
�you know I can’t leave. You know what I mean it was just a lot of hassle a lot of difficulty but…but that’s
how it was done. No instant messaging, no texting, no emails, no phone messages either. No answering
machines, did we have answering machines? I don’t think so. None of the convince.
STANISLOVAITIS: That must have been really hard.
JIMENEZ: It’s really hard. I know it’s really hard. It’s even hard now when he says “oh I can’t talk to you I
have phone fatigue”. It’s like really? Phone fatigue. But anyway yeah it’s it’s really hard. It was really
hard, it’s almost like a joke you know “no text messaging” (Laughs) I still don’t have text messaging but I
know it’s available. You know what I mean. I mean if I don’t have it it’s because I’m delayed in moving
in to the 21st technological advances. 21st century technological advances but not because I don’t want
them you know I haven’t found a need for it. But you know it’s there.
STANISLOVAITIS: Can you blame anyone that doesn’t want to be connected to everything all of the
time?
JIMENEZ: I know exactly. I do panic if I can’t find my cell phone. So yes I am one of those that has
developed I think they came out on the Internet with a new phobia of being separated from your
computer or I don’t know what they call it…eh phobia. So yeah I don need my cell phone.
JIMENEZ: I think they came out with a new phobia of being separated from your computer or your…I
don’t know what they call it. So yeah, I do need my cell phone. I’m always in the wrong place of town.
I’m always like, I’m lost look at the internet, how do I get outta here, you know, and I’m on my way
home or had a flat tire {and} ran out of gas, whatever I’m gonna be late, so I do need a cell phone.
MOSHER: Earlier you talked about how you think young people they’re ungrateful for what they have.
Do you think that’s in part due to the satisfaction of things like text messaging and Skype?
JIMENEZ: I just think that, and I think we all, have a little bit of {a} lack of gratitude at one time or
another, because it wasn’t until much later that I understood, and felt very grateful, that my parents
sent me here. As hard as it was to be away from my parents during my early adolescent years and early
adulthood, you know when I wish to be maybe mothered more than what my aunt was willing to do for
me- because she wasn’t my mother, she was my aunt, after all. So I felt a little bit ingrateful {sic} not
grateful enough, I feel. But later on I understood it was because she really wanted me to have better
opportunities, and so I appreciated that highly. And I think with kids now all they have to do is tell the
Easter Bunny what they want to bring ‘em and they kinda get it, ya know what I mean? I want a new
swimsuit I want a new car, ya know, some kids get it, they just get it. Their parents are there. And so
they don’t see that even though their parents go to work everyday, have to punch a card everyday,
make sure that they don’t go on vacations, that they follow their finances and expenditures and
purchases and stuff like that it still affects them. I think if their parents had a choice they’d wanna stay
home, they don’t wanna go to work, ya know, unless they really love their job so much ya know, but at
one time or another everybody has had to make even the sacrifice of getting up early in the morning to
get in the car to drive to work. You may not always feel…you may like your work, but you may not
always feel like you’re ready to go. You wanna sleep late on Monday morning sometimes, ya know?
Page
11
�So you take for granted that at one time or another your parents have had to make do to provide for
their children. Even if it is a different extra expenditure of the cell phone, the instant messaging, ya
know the calls, the extra hours of points so you don’t go over your minutes or whatnot, you know what I
mean? New clothes. And you wanna give your kids, too, ya know? So I think that kids just have it easy
now. I mean there’s no more child labor, ya know what I mean? And you’re not gonna go hungry, most
parents would provide for their kids, unless there are other circumstances, ya know, I’m not saying that
all parents have the ability to provide for their children, ya know there is other issues whether it is drug
dependency, or mental illness or unemployment like what’s going on right now, but I think for the most
part parents, at one time or another, have always made a little compromise for their children. Ya know,
diapers are expensive, especially when you’re just starting out and you’re working for a little bit more
than minimum wage and you have a baby. And all of a sudden it’s like, it’s not that you don’t want the
baby, but another side of you that money’s gonna be not for your haircut or your nails, it’s gonna go for
diapers or a bigger Onesie ‘cause he’s growing too fast, ya know, so…and I don’t know that kids
understand that, but I think you all will. At one time or another you’ll be parents yourselves and you will
understand that a little bit better.
MOSHER: Earlier we were talking about how you hadn’t seen much discrimination in America; do you
think that’s true for almost everyone or do you think America’s just a really friendly place?
JIMENEZ: I don’t know, I don’t wanna say that there isn’t discrimination, I just, from my personal
experience, I have to say I have not ever felt it being directed ya know? But I mean I know that, , some
African American individuals feel that they have been discriminated. Ya know I have never felt that, ya
know. Some of ‘em may say that they need to be ‘paid back’ for slavery after all this time, I never can
say that I’ve been a slave so I don’t know their experiences so I don’t have a shared experience with
that, but I was like you, learned in school. I don’t deny it- yes, there was slavery- ya know, but I don’t
know how to put it. I’m sure there’s discrimination. I can’t say that I have experienced it.
STANISLOVAITIS: Well it seems like there’s a really big perception among other countries that Americans
are spoiled and entitled, and like you said earlier, kids especially are not grateful for what they have
because we have so many opportunities. Since you have been back to Columbia a few times, were you
old enough, did you feel that way when you came back to America, did it make you look at Americans
differently?
JIMENEZ: No, because it’s just the environment that we live in; you just don’t know any better, you just
don’t know any different. Until you experience that yourself you’re not gonna realize that it’s any
different, right? I think that’s how I see it. But yeah, I could say that most kids are spoiled, but that’s
what we want, as parents, we want ‘em to have what we didn’t have, you know what I mean? Like, I
never had a beautiful bicycle when I grew up; I learned to ride a bicycle when I was fifteen. So needless
to say I’m not very
agile in turning wheelies and all this stuff, right, but when Lucas became of age, five or six, to have a
bicycle, I got him the most beautiful bicycle I could find, because it was the bicycle I would’ve loved to
have had as a kid. And granted it wasn’t purple and it didn’t have little flutteries, but it was a very
beautiful red bicycle, right, Lucas?
Page
12
�And I think as parents you will learn that it doesn’t matter, you’re gonna try to give your kids the very
best you can. So I think that’s just being a parents ‘flaw’ or fault; we wanna give the kids the best. We
don’t want them to have an trouble like our parents had or like I had, even though I don’t feel like I’ve
had any trouble. We always wanna make it best for them, which may not be the best parenting thing to
have done. We still wanna teach them to work hard, to study hard, to achieve, to progress, to motivate.
But we don’t accomplish that test by providing things for them.
MOSHER: The distaste…from other countries about America, do you think that stems from jealousy, or
do they have other motives for disliking us as a country?
JIMENEZ: I feel in part it’s jealousy, but also in part it’s their cultural influences, their own cultural
influences. Because many people have had a background of being raised in a socialist mentality, that
your computer is my computer, too, right? While, in America, it’s like, no, I have my computer, you have
your computer, and you have your computer. And you get the computer you can afford, I get the
computer I can afford, and you get the computer you can afford, but we all have computers, right? Over
there I feel like it comes from the mentality that we’re gonna have to share and I don’t care how much
money you have, you’re gonna pay more taxes and that kinda stuff. So it’s partly their social upbringing,
their political influences, and their cultural as well. While here in America I feel that if I get two jobs, I
might be able to get an Apple {computer} like that. It may take me a little bit longer saving it, but
nobody’s gonna tell me I can’t have it. If I want it you betcha I’m gonna work for it and I’m gonna get it,
even it means I’m not gonna go to McDonald’s’ for the next two months. Nobody’s telling me I cannot
have it; nobody’s regulating whether I can go to the Apple store, or Walmart or Kmart or Meijer’s to get
it, ya know what I mean? While over there they may only have one computer for sale; they may not
have computers for everybody anyway, whether you have the money or not. Does that make sense?
Does that make sense or am I just rambling?
MOSHER: Do you think there’s anywhere else in the world that functions on that same ‘if you want it
you can have it’ kinda thing, or is America the only place to get that?
JIMENEZ: I think, another place might be, I’m assuming, I don’t know for a fact, but I think maybe
England might work under those premises. That if you have the money, and you want it, and you have a
job, you can get it.
While in Mexico, for example, they may not be able to find that second job to buy what they want
because their first job isn’t providing for them. Even if they wanted to get a second job, there isn’t one.
Even here, with the extent of unemployment, and I don’t know if your parents are employed or
unemployed with the economical circumstances we have now, we can still go mow the yards, there are
still signs that say ‘help wanted.’ OK, maybe not with the skills that you went to school for or whatever,
but you can find a job. I don’t know, I don’t think there’s another place in the world like the United
States, I don’t think so.
STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that you have done a lot of traveling…do you feel like that has given
you a bigger appreciation for not only for where you came from and where you are, but from a global
view?
Page
13
�JIMENEZ: Yeah, because I learned to appreciate other people’s cultures. For example, in my house I like
to celebrate the Chinese New Year in January, so we have Chinese food. I love Chinese food, I wouldn’t
wanna be without it. I wanna know that it’s available and I like it. I like to go to the Vietnamese kitchen; I
like to go to the Italian restaurants, so defiantly I can appreciate the foods. My Pączki’s didn’t go
unnoticed from the Polish community, I knew that they were available for when I wanted to get it, so I
can appreciate that. I can appreciate the music, and I can appreciate the contributions that they have
done not just to the United States, but culturally, and through literature and all that stuff. So yes, it
broadens your prospective, and I appreciate that. But I don’t wanna live there; I’m happy right here. I
wanna know that I can go just about any city in the United States and find a Chinese restaurant, an
Italian restaurant, Greek, ya know. Whatever, I just want it here, I wanna go.
STANISLOVAITIS: I think it’s kinda interested you mentioned restaurants and food and general things like
that. When people think of things that they don’t have they don’t think of things like that. ‘Cause we’re
always taught big things like education, and being independent and being able to provide for yourself. I
feel like we don’t realize if we didn’t have those opportunities we wouldn’t have any of that.
JIMENEZ: Absolutely. The little things do matter. And pretty soon you’ll realize it’s not the big picture,
but it’s things that you do everyday that matter the most.
MOSHER: So I guess to wrap things up here it’s safe to say that you think America’s a pretty diverse
place? {Inaudible}
JIMENEZ: Absolutely. I feel that it’s very diverse, and I feel that people are realizing that they need to
fight for the opportunities and to keep it, for the opportunity to continue to be on their level. For the
mentality that hard work would provide things for you, not wait for somebody to give them to you, OK.
Don’t expect the government to provide for you health care, safety or security, or anything like that. You
need to be able to provide those things for yourself, and in return provide it for your family, your
community, and your. {Inaudible}. Whether it is the freedom of choice, the freedom of religion, the
freedom to go to school and study whatever you want. And to shop for the things you want to shop for,
and work as many jobs as you want to.
MOSHER: Well, thank you for coming in
Group: Thank you
END OF INTERVIEW
Page
14
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a2588214a018331d7231e2e49e2ef579.mp3
a35c6475300f6ff561200cdd0bcca1a1
Dublin Core
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories
Subject
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Personal narratives
Oral histories
African Americans--Personal narratives
Gays--Personal narratives
Lesbians--Personal narratives
Bisexual people--Personal narratives
Transgender people--Personal narratives
Veterans--Personal narratives
Women--Personal narratives
People with disabilities--Personal narratives
Muslims--United States--Personal narratives
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Homophobia
Discrimination
Islamophobia
Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012.
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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2017-05-02
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
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GV248-01
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1930-2011
Oral History
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GV248-01_Jimenez_Fabiola
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Fabiola Jimenez audio interview and transcript
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Jimenez, Fabiola
Contributor
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Mosher, Lucas
Overhuel, Kelsie
Richard, Kyle
Karly Stanislovaitis
Description
An account of the resource
Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman who has been living in East Michigan since 1994. She discusses how she feels as though she was never discriminated against because of her race.
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Women--Personal narratives
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Text
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project
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2012-02-14
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9d38a8694eadcfdd3a71956170a72db6.pdf
069d503a407a6097aadcd49cce868c95
PDF Text
Text
Speaking Out
Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Interviewee: Helen Grahuis
Interviewers: Alissa Cohen, Hannah Frazer, Bryce Byker and Eli Bale
Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/16/2012
Biography and Description
Helen Grahius was born and raised in Haren, Groningen, Netherlands. Later in life, she moved to
West Michigan to be with her siblings. She discusses her life in the Netherlands and in the United
States.
Transcript
INTERVIEWER: Okay, so we’re recording it now the first thing I gotta do is read you this oral release
form. So it’s “I, Helen Grashuis. hereby agree to participate in aninterview in connection with the oral
history project known as “Speaking Out: WesternMichigan’s Civil Rights Histories” at Grand Valley State
University. I understand thatthe purpose of this project is to collect audio-recorded oral histories, as well
as selectedrelated documentary materials such as photographs and manuscripts, from
thoseknowledgeable about civil rights and civil rights activism in Western Michigan with thegoal of
preserving these materials and making them available for teaching and research.This may include
publication in print, multimedia programs such as radio or television. and the WWW, among others.” So,
basically we can use the interview you’re giving us. We can like write a paper about it and we can maybe
put some of it on the The internet and ... which we probably won’t because it’s just a small thing, but
that would be pretty cool (Everyone laughs)
GRAHUIS: Now, do I have to have experience?
INTERVIEWER: No. You don’t have to have experience!
GRAHUIS: Okay! ‘Cause I don’t! (Everyone laughs)
INTERVIEWER: (Laughing) Neither do we! Okay number two: I understand that I may be identified by
name, subject to my consent. I may also be identified by name in any transcript (whether verbatim or
edited) of such interview, subject to my consent. If I choose to remain anonymous, which you can, I
know that audio-recordings of my interview will be closed to use, and my name will not appear in the
transcript or reference to any material contained in the interview. I know that in the case of choosing to
remain anonymous, my interview will only be identified by an internal ‘Speaking Out” project tracking
number. So, you’ll just have a number.
Page 1
�GRAHUIS: Oh.
INTERVIEWER: And you won’t have a name I understand that the interview will take approximately two
hours ... or one hour —
GRAHUIS: Yeah! ‘Cause I have to go to bible study!
INTERVIEWER: ... yeah, (oral release form continued) and that I can withdraw from the project without
prejudice prior to the execution and delivery of this release form. So you can still back out at any time. In
the event —
GRAHUIS: Oh! Let’s go Monique!
(Everyone laughs)
INTERVIEWER: In the event that I withdraw from the interview, any recordings make of the interview
will be either given to me or destroyed, and no transcript will be made of the interview. I understand
that a photograph of me may be taken or borrowed for duplication, and that if I withdraw from the
project, the photograph will be given to me and any copies made by the project destroyed. Number
four: I understand that, upon completion of the interview, and subject to all the other terms and
conditions of this agreement, GVSU shall own the copyright to this work and will be able to use it in any
manner it chooses including but not limited to use by researchers and students in presentations and
publications, but that I shall be given a perpetual permissive license to use my contribution in any
manner or any medium as long as I notify GVSU prior to such use. Wow. Number five, there’s only a few
more
GRAHUIS: Oh, okay.
INTERVIEWER: I understand that any restrictions as to use of portions of the interview indicated by me
will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript. So, you can tell us to leave parts out if you want
number six: I understand that upon the completion of this interview and signing this release, the
recordings, photographs, and one copy of the transcript will be kept in Grand Valley State University
Libraries’ Special Collections in Allendale, Michigan. So, all of these interviews, we’re keeping them all in
one place. So, all the students in our class and other classes are interviewing people also like professors
and other people they know and it will all be kept in one place — all those different interviews.
GRAHUIS: Oh!
INTERVIEWER: Number seven: If I have questions about the research project or procedures, I know that I
can contact Dr. Melanie Shell-Weiss in the Department of Liberal Studies, and it tells all her contact
information. Okay, so now — do you guys have a pen? — we need you to sign this... are you okay with
us identifying you? Is that okay?
GRAHUIS: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: Awesome. So ... you just need to sign right here.
Page 2
�GRAHUIS: My name?
INTERVIEWER: Your name, the address and the date, and your phone number.
GRAHUIS: The date today is 16, right?
INTERVIEWER: Yup, march 16.
GRAHUIS: 3, 16.
INTERVIEWER: 12.
Monique (Helen’s daughter): Yes, my dad really did wear these. (She pulls out a pair of old wooden
shoes)
INTERVIEWER: Oh my goodness, that’s so cool. Can I see this? What size are these? (Trying the shoes on)
GRAHUIS: I don’t know...
BALE: You’ll probably fit into them
INTERVIEWER: I don’t know...
BALE: Actually, they may be a little to big — small, I mean to big.
INTERVIEWER: To big?
BALE: Yeah, your feet are way to big.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Ouch. Aw man, I would have to get used to these. I bought a pair when I went
there... what size shoe do you wear? 13’s. And those are to big for you?
BALE: Do they fit you?
INTERVIEWER: No. Not even close. What, they’re way to big? Yeah.
BALE: Yeah, they’re to big.
INTERVIEWER: I wear 10’s.
BALE: Oh wow.
GRAHUIS: The interviewee’s me.
INTERVIEWER: Do you agree to be identified by name? Oh, and, you don’t wish to remain anonymous.
And Helen”...
BALE: These are speculaas (pulling out a box of cookies). Have you ever had these?
INTERVIEWER: Ooh!
GRAHUIS: (signing her name) Grashuis.
Page 3
�BALE: They’re like ginger cookies.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
BALE: Help yourself. Do you want one, mom?
GRAHUIS: No thanks.
INTERVIEWER: Alright. I’m just going to write my name for the thing.
GRAHUIS: Speculaas.
INTERVIEWER: Thank you.
BALE: (Pulling out a picture frame) Oh, and this is my dad wearing his wooden shoes.
INTERVIEWER: Oh! (Everyone laughs)
INTERVIEWER: Wow, that’s awesome.
GRAHUIS: Yup. That’s my husband. He died three years ago.
INTERVIEWER: Oh really. Okay, so. Did you guys know how we want to start this? Or do we just want to
wing it? Well, we have to introduce ourselves. Okay. No that’s not me.
(Looking at a picture) I’m not that cute.
(Everyone laughs)
GRAHUIS: You are! You’ve changed since I’ve last seen you!
INTERVIEWER: Look at that... (looking at pictures).
GRAHUIS: For the better!
INTERVIEWER: Thank you! So we need to introduce ourselves. And say who we’re interviewing. Oh yeah,
that’s right! It’s in the sample question packet, I think you’ve got it. That’s right here. This is kind ofjust
an outline...
BALE: Here I’ll take that.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, sweet. I’ve got what we have to say right in here. So, I’m just going to follow what
this says may name is Eli Bale. And we have Bryce Byker, Hannah Frazier. Allisa Cohen. We are here on
Friday, March the third, at 3:16 — the 16th
GRAHUIS: 16 honey.
INTERVIEWER: At quarter after 3 pm with Mrs. Helen Grashuis in Kirkhoff on Grand Valley State
University’s campus in Allendale, Michigan. We are here about to talk about Mrs. Grashuis’s memories
of her childhood and anything else she can remember about her life in western Michigan. Okay. And we
also have Monique Bale, who’s here to help us conduct the interview.
Page 4
�BALE: Helen’s daughter.
GRAHUIS: Oldest daughter.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, so, how’d you guys want to start this? Okay, so where were you born exactly?
GRAHUIS: I was born in Haren, Groningen. Groningen is the northern part of Netherlands.
INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. Very cool.
GRAHUIS: And my husband was born in Amsterdam.
INTERVIEWER: Oh. How do you spell Groningen?
GRAHUIS: Groningen G-r-o-n-i-n-g-e-n. Groningen.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, very good. Thank you. Okay, so tell us a little about your family.
GRAHUIS: My family — my mom and dad there were nine children in my family. . five boys and four
girls. So yeah. Wonderful family.
INTERVIEWER: Wait a second for this to go by.
GRAHUIS: Okay.
INTERVIEWER: And how was that experience growing up with such a large family?
GRAHUIS: Real wonderful.
INTERVIEWER: You liked it?
GRAHUIS: Yeah, we had wonderful parents.
INTERVIEWER: Are you close — were you close with your siblings?
GRAHUIS: Yes. Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Was it typical in that area or time to have that amount of people in a family?
GRAHUIS: Yes, yeah. My dad had four brothers and they all had big families.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: We had nine kids. The other ones had, the other one had six girls —
INTERVIEWER: Oh my goodness.
GRAHUIS: (chucklesj and there were, was another one who had six boys. And so —
INTERVIEWER: Jeez.
GRAHUIS: Big! Yeah! Those — those times they all had big families.
Page 5
�INTERVIEWER: Yeah, wow. It sounds like it.
GRAHUIS: Yeah, yeah. We got along real well.
INTERVIEWER: What did your parents do for work? What did your dad do for work?
GRAHUIS: My dad had his own company, and he, with his brothers, and he selled cement and all that
building materials. Yeah, it went real well.
INTERVIEWER: What about your mother? Was she just a stay at home mom?
GRAHUIS: My mom, ach! Yeah, my mom was a stay at home mom.
INTERVIEWER: With that may kids!
GRAHUIS: Washing clothes and ... yup.
INTERVIEWER: What did a typical day look like for you guys? Like, in like the school year. Like, was it all
different grades? Like, in the Netherlands did they have, like, a middle school and a high school where
you guys were all separated up into?
GRAHUIS: the school I went to the distances were so small. So we walked to school there was one road
that go into, from where we were to the, the schools, the Christian school.
INTERVIEWER: So it was a pretty small town?
GRAHUIS: Yeah. Quite small, and *ahem*, excuse me. a lot of Dutch people. In that, time, there were a
lot of people that came from different countries. Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: And do you remember anything about your school.
GRAHUIS: Well, we had to work hard! (Laughter)
INTERVIEWER: Yuuuup, I can relate to that. You said there were people from a lot of different countries
so, would you say that everyone was excepting of all the different types of people that were there?
GRAHUIS: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah?
GRAHUIS: Yeah, uh-huh. And I think mostly they came from the Netherlands.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah?
GRAHUIS: Yeah. So,—
BALE: But mom, you said too, that your community was really tight-nit. You knew all the families.
GRAHUIS: Yes.
Page 6
�BALE: You had a milkman who came down the street with his horse-cart. those families. The Bucker the
Baker’s man.
GRAHUIS: He would go through the street with his little red
INTERVIEWER: - like cart?
GRAHUIS: Cart! Yup, that he pushed. Yeah, it was wonderful time we had, a wonderful time.
BALE: And because your family was so big, you didn’t have a whole lot of money.
GRAHUIS: Nope.
BALE: And it was a home — you slept with your sisters right?
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
BALE: Two sisters.
GRAHUIS: Yup.
BALE: And it was very, and in the winter time it was very cold. I remember you telling stories of when
you would wake up in the morning and ice would be on your sheets. That’s how cold it was.
GRAHUIS: Yup.
INTERVIEWER: Wow!
BALE: And you slept together to keep warm.
GRAHUIS: To keep warm.
BALE: And you didn’t have very many clothes.
GRAHUIS: That’s right.
BALE: And, I was just asking her on the way over here. Did you wear wooden shoes when you were
growing up? And she did. She wore wooden shoes all through elementary school. She said, I said, so
how do your feet keep warm. She said they had leather slippers that they would put inside their wooden
shoes and they would walk.
GRAHUIS: Socks of course.
BALE: And they would walk through the snow and snow would accumulate on their wooden shoes.
INTERVIEWER: Oh my gosh, wow. Kind of like ice skating. Exactly.
BALE: And she said when she got to be about, what? Maybe ten. You got your first pair of leather shoes.
That was a big deal.
Page 7
�GRAHUIS: Oh yeah! We were so proud! We could go to church with our leather shoes we would just
walk in the neighborhood and just look at it. Just look at it!
INTERVIEWER: Ah, that’s great. Yeah, what about —
GRAHUIS: I have such wonderful memories of my youth.
INTERVIEWER: Tell us some of those memories.
GRAHUIS: Huh?
INTERVIEWER: Tell us some of your favorite memories. If you have any.
GRAHUIS: (chuckles) Favorite — favorite memories! There was a lot of— there was a lot of land there.
So, grass and ditches and we would have a long pole and jump across those ditches and guess what? We
would fall in! So beautiful.
BALE: So when the canals froze over —
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I was gonna ask about that. Skating!
BALE: Yeah, skating for miles and miles.
GRAHUIS: Oh yes, we skated for miles —
INTERVIEWER: So fun
GRAHUIS: That’s, oh that was wonderful. Wonderful. And we had, we had lanterns and we lived, my
family lived on, the haven ... haven ... how do you say haven?
BALE: Like a little lake. Like a little pond or a little lake.
GRAHUIS: Where the boats would come in.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, did you live —
BALE: Like a harbor!
GRAHUIS: Harbor.
INTERVIEWER: Did you live —
BALE: Like a harbor.
INTERVIEWER: - near the ocean?
GRAHUIS: Huh?
INTERVIEWER: Did you live near the ocean?
GRAHUIS: No, no.
Page 8
�INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: Opa did. Opa is grandpa.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: And I’m oma.
INTERVIEWER: (chuckles) Yup, my oma. I’ve heard you call her that a couple times. Yeah, they were
confused when I said that the first time! They were like, What does that mean?” (Laughter)
GRAHUIS: (laughing) Yeah!
BALE: Yeah, so you lived on the harbor.
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
BALE: Yeah.
GRAHUIS: And then my dad, my dad would, put us on his back, and we would tie our skates on then we
could go on his back and he would drop us off on the harbor. There was ice — well, of course there was
ice, otherwise he wouldn’t throw us in! And then at night they would put the lights on these... we call it.
INTERVIEWER: Like the lamps?
GRAHUIS: Yeah! Yes, yes. Otherwise we would break our neck. But then we would skate from the harbor
to the canal. We would have to go under bridges.
INTERVIEWER: Did you ever have races?
GRAHUIS: What?
INTERVIEWER: Did you ever have races on the canals? Like skating races?
GRAHUIS: Not that much on the canals. But there were also lakes and that is where they mostly had the
races
INTERVIEWER: Now I know Opa was quite a big sailor. Did you sail at all when you were growing up?
Like, did you go out on the water in boats?
GRAHUIS: My husband?
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I know Opa was a big sailor but did you do any sailing or fishing out on the water?
GRAHUIS: Fishing! Oh we did a lot of fishing.
INTERVIEWER: When did you meet your husband?
GRAHUIS: I met my husband in the sixties? No fifties
Page 9
�INTERVIEWER: Ok so quite a bit after your childhood. And did you meet him there or when you came to
the United States?
GRAHUIS: No I met him here.
INTERVIEWER: Oh wow!
GRAHUIS: Yeah, I met him in church. He saw me sitting in church. Because I had and aunt and uncle that
were in Kalamazoo, they immigrated to Kalamazoo, and they had ten kids. So I would go to church with
them. And then Hank, my husbands name is Hank, his, let me see, where am I? Oh Yes, they were
members of the same church. It was a Christian reformed church in Kalamazoo. I was living in the YWCA.
So he found that out and then that sunday night after church, I was in my room and somebody said,”
Somebody is here for you”. So I said “Okay”. I had no idea that it was him. So there was Hank
INTERVIEWER: Wow, was it love at first sight?
GRAHUIS: Yeah, so that is how we met.
BALE: But to put a big picture on it, my dad had a family often right?
GRAHUIS: Eight.
BALE: Yeah, eight kids. But ten all together. They immigrated when he was sixteen. He was sixteen.
GRAHUIS: Yes.
BALE: So they came over on a big boat, when he was sixteen. And then my mom immigrated when she
was twenty five and she came with her brother here to America.
GRAHUIS: Yes, my brother was a year younger than I am.
BALE: Right. So dad was here already in kalamazoo.
GRAHUIS: Yes but I also had uncle John, my brother John, was living here already. And my sister Evelin.
They were living here. So we came here from the Netherlands, visiting them. We could stay with them in
their home. It was quite something. I was a little homesick at first but thats it.
INTERVIEWER: What made up your mind about moving here? What was your motivation for moving
here?
GRAHUIS: I wanted to see what the United States was like.
INTERVIEWER: How old were you when you moved?
GRAHUIS: Twenty two.
INTERVIEWER: Twenty two?
GRAHUIS: I was twenty two years old when I came here.
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10
�INTERVIEWER: What did you imagine it would be like?
GRAHUIS: .
INTERVIEWER: Better than It actually was?
GRAHUIS: Yeah, I love this country. I am so glad I came here. Of coarse I met my husband here.
INTERVIEWER: Did you come over on a boat?
GRAHUIS: I flew.
INTERVIEWER: Okay cool.
GRAHUIS: And my dad paid for the ticket.
INTERVIEWER: Oh so You didn’t go with your family?
GRAHUIS: Yes my brother. I was twenty two.
BALE: Was that Clause?
GRAHUIS: Yes.
BALE: And John was here already.
GRAHUIS: Yes, John was here. John was married. And Eveline was here.
BALE: Okay, so two siblings were here and you came over with another brother.
GRAHUIS: Yep.
BALE: So thats four of the nine kids came over to the states.
GRAHUIS: And my mom was very sad that so many came to the united states.
BALE: Are the other five still there?
GRAHUIS: Yeah they have been here but they would rather stay in the Netherlands.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, so what else do you remember from the time you were ten years old to the time
you were twenty two? Like when exactly was the nazi occupation?
GRAHUIS: Oh I was afraid you were going to say something about that. It was in the forties.
INTERVIEWER: How old were you when that happened?
GRAHUIS: I was In my thirties. I was thirty eight when it was over.
BALE: No, how old where you when the war was going on? You were young.
GRAHUIS: Well I was born in 1937.
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11
�BALE: Ok so you were young. You were six.
INTERVIEWER: Do you remember anything about that? Do you remember your lifestyle changing?
GRAHUIS: Yes, yes. Because we were living in a home and right next to us was a garage where all the
germans were in. And so when all the Americans or the English came over, they would shoot at that
garage. But also, we were also bombarded because our home was so close to that garage. So if my
brother had stayed that night, we were eating supper, my dad was in church work and so he was not
home, my mom was only there with all the kids, and if he would have stayed in that chair he would have
been killed. Because the bullet went right through the seat.
BALE: So did you here the sirens or did you hear the plans come in?
GRAHUIS: We heard the plans come in.
BALE: So what they did is they went down into the cellar. Everybody left the table and went into the
cellar.
GRAHUIS: Yes, I fell into the potato salad. Thats why I have such a potato head.
INTERVIEWER: So it seems that you were living in fear for a while then, right?
GRAHUIS: Yes, we were.
INTERVIEWER: And how long did that go on?
GRAHUIS: I think it started in forty two and in forty five it was over.
INTERVIEWER: Do you remember your diet changing or your lifestyle changing because you didn’t have
enough money?
GRAHUIS: Well food was hard to get.
INTERVIEWER: I remember you saying something about rations. Did you guys have to do that at all?
GRAHUIS: Oh yes, definitely. And we had a big family so would have a lot of sugar and there were some
families that could not get it. So we would exchange sugar for what they had. Potatoes or whatever. So
that was quite a life.
INTERVIEWER: But it sounds like money wasn’t, I mean its a struggle without money, but it sounds like it
wasn’t really an issue. Like you say you still loved your memories of growing up and everything.
GRAHUIS: Yes, I did.
INTERVIEWER: So you still had fun even though the Nazis were around.
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, and I heard how with the bikes they would take the tires. Did that happen to you
guys?
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12
�GRAHUIS: Oh yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Why did they do that?
GRAHUIS: because they could use the rubber. They were rubber tires and they could use it.
INTERVIEWER: So they took it right off your bikes to use it?
GRAHUIS: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: Wow. So you had to clatter around on metal wheels for a while?
GRAHUIS: Yeah exactly.
INTERVIEWER: Do you remember, I mean obviously there was a war going on, but were there any
tragedies that hit close to home or to you with friends or anything?
GRAHUIS: Yes. Friends, their fathers were transported someplace else. I had a friend and her father was
a doctor and he was killed. And of coarse the jews, we had jews in our town. They were picked up.
INTERVIEWER: Did you know anyone that was helping them at all?
GRAHUIS: Yes, Hanks father was a police man so he hid a lot ofjewish people.
INTERVIEWER: That’s really cool. Did he ever get caught?
GRAHUIS: No, he did not get caught. And Hank would, on his bike, go to the farmers and pick up milk for
the family.
INTERVIEWER: What were the nazi soldiers like? Where they mean or did they trouble you guys at all?
GRAHUIS: I can not remember much of that.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, what did you do for fun around that time? In your free time with your friends and
stuff? I know you had a tight knit community and stuff, what did you guys do for fun?
GRAHUIS: A lot of things. A lot of little things.
INTERVIEWER: Did you guys have any sports you liked to play? I know Opa enjoyed playing soccer.
GRAHUIS: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: Did you guys have anything like that or did you guys just do little hangouts and stuff?
GRAHUIS: Bicycling, and of coarse in the winter skating.
INTERVIEWER: And did you guys, I don not know if this is like an American thing but did you guys have
like snowball fights and build snowmen?
GRAHUIS: Oh yeah.
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13
�INTERVIEWER: Okay, I guess a worldwide thing.
GRAHUIS: Yep when you have snow you make a snowman.
INTERVIEWER: What about Christmas time? Did you have any traditions you used to do? Like, I know
you used to put shoes by the door or something like that?
GRAHUIS: Yeah I put something in it. Yep we sure did.
INTERVIEWER: Now around Christmas time did you have your relatives come over or was it just your
family?
BALE: What was Christmas like? Christmas day.
GRAHUIS: Oh we would decorate the whole room and it was nice.
BALE: Did you exchange presents?
GRAHUIS: Yes we did. Little gifts. very little gifts because we did not have much money as kids because
we did not work.
INTERVIEWER: No ipods?
GRAHUIS: Nope.
INTERVIEWER: Where there any traditions you brought from to the United States from back in the
Netherlands?
GRAHUIS: Our Dutch cooking. Stumput.
INTERVIEWER: What is that? I have never heard of it.
GRAHUIS: You put potatoes, you cook potatoes and carrots and you mash them all up. The kids love it.
BALE: Potatoes, carrots, onions.
GRAHUIS: And onions.
INTERVIEWER: Where did that meal come from? Do you remember how it originated into the
Netherlands?
GRAHUIS: No, i think its more a dutch meal. Interviewer. Okay, because I remember someone, i do not
remember who it was, told me that, when they did not have a lot of ingredients and stuff during the war
and they had just potatoes, onions and carrots, they were like lets just throw it all into a pot, mash it up
and see what come out. And that was stumpot. And Tm glad they did. Its really good.
BALE: So your diet was mainly potatoes. very little meat because meat was expensive.
GRAHUIS: Oh yeah, we did not eat much meat at all. It as very expensive.
BALE: And then the fish.
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14
�GRAHUIS: fish yeah.
BALE: Yes, and dutch cheese.
INTERVIEWER: Now did you ever go on to college?
Helen: No I did not go to college. I went to high school.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, do you have any specific memories from your hight school?
GRAHUIS: Yeah we had some things that we did together as a class. We did everything on bicycles. We
would go swimming and it was quite a ways away. And we did a lot of biking. So one those days you did
not see very many people.
INTERVIEWER: And what about jobs? Did you get ajob when you graduated high school?
GRAHUIS: No. I did not work.
BALE: But you did say you had ajob in Haden that you had to bike to. And that was after hight school.
You were in your twenties. Didm’t you have a secretarial job?
GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. When I was older.
BALE: Before you immigrated over. What was that job?
GRAHUIS: Ill have to think, what did I do? I worked at an office.
INTERVIEWER: Okay
BALE: You worked there everyday. Haden was how far from Cronighan?
INTERVIEWER: What is that?
GRAHUIS: Stumput.
INTERVIEWER: I’ve never heard of that.
INTERVIEWER: Me Either.
GRAHUIS: You have potatoes. You cook potatoes, and carrots, and-uh then you mash them all up.
INTERVIEWER: Ooo
INTERVIEWER: That sounds good.
GRAHUIS: And- the kids love it.
BALE: And onions. Potatoes, carrots and onions.
GRAHUIS: And onions.
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15
�INTERVIEWER: And where did that meal come from, like, where did that meal come from? Do you
remember, like, how it originated in the Netherlands? (Pause)
INTERVIEWER: Okay
GRAHUIS: I think its more Dutch. The DutchINTERVIEWER: Okay because I remember someone, I don’t remember who it was, told me that they
didn’t, when they didn’t have, like a lot of ingredients and stuff during the war, like and they had just
potatoes, onions, and carrots, they were like lets throw it all into a pot, mash it up, and see what comes
out. (Laughs)
GRAHUIS: Uh-huh
INTERVIEWER: So they had stumput,
GRAHUIS: Uh-huh
BALE: Yeah
INTERVIEWER: And I’m glad they did. (Laughs)
INTERVIEWER: It’s really good!
GRAHUIS: Uh-huh
BALE: So your diet was mainly potatoes, very little meat because meat was expensive.
GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. We didn’t eat much meat at all. (Pause) It was very expensive.
INTERVIEWER: Um-hm
BALE: And the fish.
GRAHUIS: Fish. Yeah.
BALE: And cheese.
GRAHUIS: And cheese. That’s cheese.
INTERVIEWER: Um-hm. (Pause) Now did you go to college?
GRAHUIS: No. I did not go to college. I went to high school.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: Uh-.huh.
INTERVIEWER: Do you have any specific memories from your high school?
GRAHUIS: Yeah. We had some things that we did together as a class.
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16
�INTERVIEWER: Mmm
GRAHUIS: we would We did everything on bicycles.
INTERVIEWER: Mmmmmm
GRAHUIS: . We would go to go swimming, andINTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: . It was quite a ways away, and, yeah. We did a lot of a lot of biking, biking.
INTERVIEWER: Mm
GRAHUIS: Yeah. So in those days you didn’t see very many big people.
BALE: (Laugh)
INTERVIEWER: Yeah! (Laugh) And what about jobs? Did you get a job when you graduated high school?
GRAHUIS: No. I did not work.
BALE: But you did say you had a job. In,
GRAHUIS: Holland.
BALE: that you had to bike to. When, that was after high school though. When you were in your
twenties. (Pause) Didn’t you have a secretarial job or ajob that you, I remember you saying that you
GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. When I was older.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
BALE: Yeah. Before you immigrated over.
INTERVIEWER: Before you immigrated. Yeah. That’s, yeah.
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
BALE: What was that job?
GRAHUIS: let me think what did I do? (Pause) I worked at an office.
INTERVIEWER: Okay
BALE: Yup. You’d bike there everyday.
GRAHUIS: Um-hm
BALE: Howden was how far from Kronian (32:14)?
GRAHUIS: five kilometers.
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17
�BALE: Okay.
INTERVIEWER: Hm, Okay.
GRAHUIS: And I would go there in the morning, and then for lunch I would come home, and then at one
o’clock I would go back.
INTERVIEWER: Oh, wow.
GRAHUIS: So, it’s a lot of biking.
INTERVIEWER: That is a lot. Yeah. A couple miles in everyday.
BALE: And you lived at home?
GRAHUIS: I lived at home. Yeah.
BALE: Okay.
INTERVIEWER: And your family got along pretty well together, all of you kids?
GRAHUIS: Eh, yeah. Hey, when you’re kids you have to fight once and a while. (Laughs)
INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I know what that’s like.
BALE: I remember
GRAHUIS: We’re not perfect.
BALE: Yeah. I remember you recently telling me this too that your grandfather lived with you. Your
grandfather lived with you.
INTERVIEWER: Oh.
GRAHUIS: My Mom’s father.
BALE: Right, and he didn’t have his own room cuz there were no rooms left over. He would sleep in the,
on the couch.
GRAHUIS: Yeah on the couch.
BALE: On the couch in the dinning room, living room.
GRAHUIS: Yes.
BALE: Okay, and that just, he was part of the family.
GRAHUIS: Yeah. That’s where he died.
BALE: And that’s where he died.
GRAHUIS: Yup.
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18
�BALE: Okay.
GRAHUIS: Yup. Um-hm. That’s right. (Pause) Yup.
INTERVIEWER: Do you remember anything about the churches in the Netherlands, like the church you
went to?
GRAHUIS: Well they’re not like here. Um, in those days we didn’t have our groups
INTERVIEWER: Like bible study and?
GRAHUIS: Yes. Exactly. Um-hm.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: So it was more for the older people.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Do they have an organ in the church?
GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. Beautiful organ.
BALE: Beautiful organ.
GRAHUIS: Um-hm.
BALE: Yup.
INTERVIEWER: That’s cool. Now about your immigration, do you guys have any other questions about
Holland?
INTERVIEWER: No. I think we’ve heard a lot.
INTERVIEWER: Okay was it uncommon for people to rnove to the United States in the Netherlands, or
was it pretty common for people to just head over here?
GRAHUIS: It was, yeah. There was a certain time period where a lot of people came to the United States.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: Or Canada.
INTERVIEWER: Or Canada.
INTERVIEWER: And was it just because they wanted to, or was there a reason they were leaving the
Netherlands?
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19
�GRAHUIS: it was, (Pause) it was well, we have big families. You know? Like my aunt and uncle. They
immigrated because it wasn’t (Pause) they could feed them here.
INTERVIEWER: So a better life?
GRAHUIS: Yeah. A better life.
INTERVIEWER: Opportunities.
GRAHUIS: A much better life especially also going to school.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
GRAHUIS: . They would go to college here or- . So, (Pause) yup. A lot of big families immigrated. Yup.
This is a great country.
INTERVIEWER: Now, when you came to the U.S. so you boarded a plane from the Netherlands, and
where did you...
GRAHUIS: Amsterdam. Yup.
INTERVIEWER: From Amsterdam. Where did you arrive? Where was your destination in the U.S.? Did
you land in like New York or (Pause) where did you land on the flight?
GRAHUIS: I think we landed where did we go to?
BALE: Probably Chicago.
GRAHUIS: Oh! Oh no. Detroit yeah, Detroit.
INTERVIEWER: Was your intention always to come to Michigan?
GRAHUIS: Yeah because I had a sister and a brother here.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
GRAHUIS: Um-hm.
INTERVIEWER: So where did you go? Where did you start living When you got to the U.S.?
GRAHUIS: Michigan.
INTERVIEWER: Michigan. Like where
INTERVIEWER: What city?
INTERVIEWER: Like Kalamazoo or?
GRAHUIS: Kalamazoo.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, and that was, you lived with your brother then?
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�GRAHUIS: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: John and Ida.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: What was that like?
GRAHUIS: John was my oldest brother.
INTERVIEWER: Like did you find ajob right away or did you just?
GRAHUIS: I also worked here in an office.
INTERVIEWER: Oh okay.
GRAHUIS: Uh-huh, and when did I start driving school bus?
BALE: That was way later.
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah that was way later.
BALE: Didn’t you work at a department store?
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
BALE: In like, yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
BALE: Didn’t you even model some cloths? Did you model some cloths or?
GRAHUIS: Yeah I did. I did.
BALE: We should have brought a picture of it.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah! I would have loved to see those!
BALE: You were very nice looking. (Laughs)
GRAHUIS: Yeah
BALE: Oh well. (Laughs)
INTERVIEWER: We don’t need to talk about that. (Laugh) Stop. (Laughs)
INTERVIEWER: So then, was it quite recent after you moved to the U.S. that you met Opa?
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�GRAHUIS: Yes. Uh-huh. Yup.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. So was that like a few years after afterwards or?
GRAHUIS: He was, oh gosh, he was in, he was in the military? (Pause) Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: I was, let’s see now. Opa was twenty-five when I, when we married, and I was twenty-four.
No. He was twenty-four; I was twenty-five.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: So
INTERVIEWER: Oh. So you met each other and you got married quite soon after that then.
GRAHUIS: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: Uh-huh.
INTERVIEWER: So love at first sight kind of thing?
GRAHUIS: Yup. (Laughs)
INTERVIEWER: Right when you walked up to the door? (Laughs)
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: so after you got married what did you guys do after that, like did you move somewhere,
or did you get a house.
GRAHUIS: Yeah. We got a house, and we had a house full of kids. (Laughs)
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Tell us about that.
INTERVIEWER: How many kids do you have?
GRAHUIS: Three daughters.
INTERVIEWER: Three daughters?
GRAHUIS: -him. Monique is the oldest, and then we have Michelle, a year later, and then we have
Melissa.
BALE: A year later. (Laughs)
INTERVIEWER: Wow!
GRAHUIS: So Melissa lives in Australia.
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�INTERVIEWER: Wow.
GRAHUIS: And she’s coming here with her husband and their two children in a couple weeks. Right?
INTERVIEWER: Mrnm. Yup. I’m looking forward to that.
GRAHUIS: Yup.
INTERVIEWER: To visit or to move?
GRAHUIS: To visit.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
INTERVIEWER: And what about that family experience? How did that differ from your family experience
in the Netherlands?
GRAHUIS: I don’t know. What do you mean with that?
INTERVIEWER: Well, I mean just, what was your family experience like here I guess? Did you
INTERVIEWER: With your husband and your children.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: How did it differ from how you grew up in the Netherlands?
INTERVIEWER: Did you have a better lifestyle here would you say or?
BALE: Did you have a better lifestyle here?
GRAHUIS: Yeah. Definitely.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah?
GRAHUIS: Oh definitely.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah?
GRAHUIS:huh. Yeah. Yup.
INTERVIEWER: And was it ever, I mean, hard with money and anything or?
GRAHUIS: No. My husband had a very good job. He went to the Kalamazoo college there.
INTERVIEWER: Oh. Yeah.
BALE: It’s Western Michigan.
INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh.
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�GRAHUIS: Yeah, and then he got his masters degree in Illinois, Northern Illinois University, and yeah. He
had a good job. We had a good life. Yeah, and then Melissa went to Calvin right?
INTERVIEWER: Calvin. Oh Yeah.
BALE: Um-hrn.
GRAHUIS: And you went to Calvin.
BALE: Um-hm.
GRAHUIS: And Michelle went to Farry, Farris. Farris!
BALE: Um-hm.
GRAHUIS: Yup.
INTERVIEWER: So, did you, so you got married, and you lived in Kalamazoo
GRAHUIS: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: For a few years. Did you live there, now how long did you live in Kalamazoo?
GRAHUIS: How long did we live in Kalamazoo
INTERVIEWER: Like was it a long time, like did you have all three of your daughters in Kalamazoo?
GRAHUIS: No. They were born in Chicago.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
INTERVIEWER: Oh really?
GRAHUIS: Yeah. Oh we moved all over the place.
INTERVIEWER: Oh wow.
INTERVIEWER: Tell us a little bit about that, like where did you guys, what were the different places you
guys lived?
GRAHUIS: Okay. That’s up to her. (Laughs)
GRAHUIS: She knows better.
BALE: So you lived in Michigan for a little bit after you were married.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
BALE: And then you moved down to Chicago, where Dad got his masters, and then you started having
us. We lived in Chicago for, I remember, about five years ‘cuz when I was kindergarten age we moved
back up to Grand Haven, Michigan.
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�INTERVIEWER: Oh. Okay.
BALE: And that’s where we settled for, probably until I was in junior high, high school.
GRAHUIS: -him
BALE: So that’s where we started school, all three of us, and lived in Grand Haven. Yeah, and then we we
lived in Grand Haven, and-uh we lived not too far from your sister, Evelyn, and another brother, Klaus,
and another brother, John. So all three of the families, all four of the families were in Grand Haven.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
BALE: And we were very close with the families. We all grew up together.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
BALE: Lots of cousins.
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
BALE: And that was good.
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
BALE: That was a very good, good growing up.
INTERVIEWER: A good few years?
BALE: Yup, and when we got together we... everybody would be speaking Dutch. It was all, everything
was in Dutch, and our
INTERVIEWER: You too Mom?
INTERVIEWER: So yeah. You know Dutch as well?
BALE: Well I can understand it.
INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. I didn’t know that.
BALE: Yeah we can understand it.
GRAHUIS: Melissa’s good at it.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
BALE: We didn’t necessarily converse or speak, but it was all Dutch, and Dutch food. during the holidays,
our Christrnas especially, we would always look forward to... they make like a specialty. Yeah a Dutch
specialty is oliebollen. So it’s
INTERVIEWER: Oliebollen, mmrnmm.
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�BALE: Kind of a daylong process of making the dough and rising the the yeast rising it
GRAHUIS: Yup.
BALE: And it was all made out in the garage. It was
GRAHUIS: So you don’t get all that smell in your home.
BALE: Yup, and this is very traditional.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
BALE: So we would have oliebollen.
INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. So you guys took home some traditions from back there?
BALE: Oh yeah!
GRAHUIS: You Dutch. You know that.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I know a lot about the food and stuff, but, and I love the food, but I haven’t heard
of that before. I’ve never heard of that before, so.
BALE: Oh oliebollen?
INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I’ve never heard of that.
BALE: Oh very traditional.
INTERVIEWER: It’s good. It’s good too.
GRAHUIS: Yeah. You fry them in oil. You have a pan full of oil, and you dump the stuff
INTERVIEWER: The dough.
GRAHUIS: Yeah, the dough.
INTERVIEWER: Oh okay.
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Now did you, is that when you had your school bus job?
GRAHUIS: When did I start
INTERVIEWER: In Grand Haven.
BALE: You started driving school oh boy. That wasn’t in Georgia. I would say
GRAHUIS: No that was in Kalama, in- that was in Grand Haven.
BALE: In Grand Haven.
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�GRAHUIS: Yes.
BALE: Okay.
GRAHUIS:huh.
INTERVIEWER: When was
GRAHUIS: And I was the best bus driver. (Laughs)
GRAHUIS: In Grand Haven. (Laughs)
INTERVIEWER: Yeah. The kids loved you.
INTERVIEWER: I’m sure.
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome.
GRAHUIS: Although, I could also be
INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I heard you had to like, I remember you telling us storied about some of the kids on
your bus, like some of them were very unruly, and
GRAHUIS: Oh yah. They can be.
INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah. So
GRAHUIS: Children are children.
INTERVIEWER: What age group did you, was it elementary, middle school?
GRAHUIS: All age.
INTERVIEWER: Oh all?
GRAHUIS: Yup. Kindergarteners I had a kindergarten run in the afternoon, at noon, so I liked it, and now
I get a little pension. (Laughs)
INTERVIEWER: So where did you, you said you moved to Georgia?
INTERVIEWER: Yeah where does Georgia fall into this?
BALE: -hrn.
INTERVIEWER: What other places did you move?
BALE: We were very sad about that.
INTERVIEWER: After Grand Haven? Okay.
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�BALE: We lived in Grand Haven for, after Chicago, five years, we lived in Grand Haven for up until I was
about, I would say, tenth grade, and Michelle ninth, and Melissa eighth, and then we, so it was very hard
to leave a tight nit family group.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
BALE: .
INTERVIEWER: That’s a tough time to leave.
BALE: Um-hm. I was pretty devastated. So Dad got ajob down in near Atlanta, which is Roswell, Georgia.
INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh.
BALE: And so we left the family up in Grand Haven. We moved down to Georgia where Dad worked for a
company. We were there for two years living in the south.
INTERVIEWER: Oh gees.
BALE: Yeah, and then
INTERVIEWER: So you graduated there.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
BALE: No. I didn’t.
INTERVIEWER: Oh no?
BALE: Two years later, actually a year... two years later. We lived down there for two years I think.
INTERVIEWER: -hm.
BALE: And then we moved up to New York.
INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. You guys have been all over.
BALE: And we moved up to New York, and we lived there on Long Island for a year.
GRAHUIS: Yup. Long Island. That’s right.
INTERVIEWER: Wow.
INTERVIEWER: Was this all for his work?
BALE: So back up. I think
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
BALE: Georgia was my ninth grade. I moved in ninth grade to Georgia.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
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�BALE: Ninth and tenth.
GRAHUIS: Okay.
BALE: Moved up to Long Island for a year, and that was very different ‘cuz we were blonde Dutch
people.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah!
BALE: Living in
GRAHUIS: She had boyfriends all over. (Laughs)
BALE: We lived in an Italian; I mean it was all Italian.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
BALE: And, so those were our friends.
INTERVIEWER: Just for the interviews sake, did you guys appreciate all the diversity that was around you
or did you ever feel, or was there any sense of segregation ever? Like that’s just one of the questions we
were just wondering about with the interviews we’re doing.
GRAHUIS: No, no.
INTERVIEWER: No sense of segregation? Okay.
BALE: I don’t think so.
GRAHUIS: No, not at all.
INTERVIEWER: Because the U.S. was a very diverse time, very diverse time back then.
GRAHUIS: No, I never felt that.
INTERVIEWER: And your family, you’ve always been accepting of other races and stuff?
GRAHUIS: Yeah.
BALE: Yeah, I mean we grew up in a very, I mean it was a very Dutch, Western Michigan, so I don’t think.
INTERVIEWER: Still is.
BALE: We were among our own people. There was not much in Western Michigan diverse wise. In Grand
Haven, Kalamazoo, it was mainly Dutch.
INTERVIEWER: What about Chicago?
BALE: Chicago was a little different. I don’t, I was young so I don’t really remember. in the apartment
complex, I don’t remember a whole lot of diversity there. No.
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�INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: But now like Monique, for instance, adopted an American,
BALE: African American.
GRAHUIS: African American boy.
INTERVIEWER: Sean.
GRAHUIS: Sean. Sean is our, Eli’s brother.
INTERVIEWER: He’s my bro.
GRAHUIS: And now she’s adopting two children of Congo. And she’s getting those two children, they are
sisters. And she’s getting them in May.
INTERVIEWER: That’s great, that’s awesome. That’s really cool. That’s’ really exciting.
BALE: So here’s 100% Dutch, 100% Dutch.
GRAHUIS: The blondies and the blackies.
BALE: Lots of color, lots of color in our family. So yeah, we’ve never felt segregated.
INTERVIEWER: So is there any specific memories that either of you have in those three, those five places
that you lived? Like because you just told us about the history, Chicago, Georgia, New York, Netherlands,
and Grand Haven. Do you have any specific memories of just like, a story or anything? Can you wrap
your brain around?
GRAHUIS: You probably do being in school.
BALE: Specific stories?
GRAHUIS: Didn’t you have a little problem in the Netherlands in school?
BALE: yeah, I think some of my best memories were in the Netherlands.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
BALE: Some of my best memories were there because we were in a completely different culture. I mean
the Netherlands, but we were actually living in Holland. And we were old enough to travel around, so,
because I was eighteen we traveled, when you’re in the Netherlands and there’s countries all around
you, it’s like traveling to the next state or the next town, because I mean Belgium was, Germany was a
few hours, right across the way. We would vacation, we vacationed in Italy and we went to Germany
with our youth group. And for a class trip we went to London. And then
GRAHUIS: So you would, oh excuse me. Then you would live with other families, didn’t you?
BALE: No, not in the Netherlands, not in my high school years.
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�GRAHUIS: Oh okay, oh.
BALE: Yeah, so we had the freedom of travelling so it was wonderful, it was wonderful experiencing
different culture in my high school years. But yeah, I think those are some of the best memories. And for
a specific story, I don’t remember Eli, I’m sorry.
INTERVIEWER: Maybe later you can tell me.
BALE: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay so, you said you moved back to Grand Haven?
BALE: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: and then you went off to college and then I’m assuming Aunt Mitchie and Aunt Lizzie
went off to college several years after that. So then when then they all left, it was just you and Opa?
Now, is that about the time you got a bus driving job? Like I remember
BALE: I think during our college years you were bus driving.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: Mhm.
BALE: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: And you must have drove buses for a while then because I can still remember when you
GRAHUIS: I did, I did. I drove bus for twenty years.
INTERVIEWER: Oh my gosh. Wow, that’s a long time.
GRAHUIS: Get up at five o’clock in the morning and I pick all those kids up at home.
INTERVIEWER: Oh wow.
GRAHUIS: Oh, especially in the winter time.
INTERVIEWER: Was it a fun job though?
GRAHUIS: Oh, huh?
INTERVIEWER: Was it fun?
GRAHUIS: Yeah, I liked it, I enjoyed it.
BALE: I think that an important thing for this interview is I a very big thing about being Dutch, and a very
big thing that has, from the Dutch culture, I think ingrained in each one of the kids is being hard working
and being thrifty. I think both you and dad were very hard working and you instilled that in us. And also
spending wisely, being thrifty. This is all from the Dutch culture, because there was not much when you
were growing up, there was not much to go around. You just made do with what you had. And you also,
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�you all pulled together, you all had your chores. I remember you each having your chores. Because you
had to rely on each other to do the work that had to be done. So that kind of passes on to the
generations. Passing on down now to Eli. Your very hard working, aren’t you Eli?
INTERVIEWER: Of course I am. So now you live in Grand Haven?
GRAHUIS: I live in Grand Haven, yeah.
INTERVIEWER: So what do you do now in Grand Haven, how do you spend your days?
GRAHUIS: I lay on the couch.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Do you live by yourself?
GRAHUIS: I live by myself, yeah. Yeah, my husband died in November ‘08. So yeah. I have, of course, I
have three daughters and they moved away she lives in the U.P., Michelle lives in Saginaw, and Melissa
lives in Australia. And so I don’t have very much, I have a brother John that was the first one to come
here, and he lives in Kalamazoo. Then I have a brother Peter who lives in South Bend. And I have some
brothers, two sisters. Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: And down in Kalamazoo there’s a little community of, that’s branched out from there,
right?
GRAHUIS: Lot’s of Dutch.
INTERVIEWER: Lot’s of our family live down there still?
GRAHUIS: Yes.
BALE: And also, when we were growing up, we took two trips; we took two family trips to the
Netherlands. So we were, I think my first trip over to the Netherlands to visit Opa and Oma. which is her
folks, was when I was seven, eight? So we would, we would spend, I don’t know how many weeks we
were there, three weeks maybe, we would live in, we would vacation over in _____? and we would bike
around in Holland and we would get to know the Dutch cousins and get to know the Dutch aunts and
uncles. And it was only during those trips that we got to know our Dutch side. because otherwise we
didn’t grow know them at all.
INTERVIEWER: Except for the few Dutch family you had in Grand Haven?
BALE: Over here, right. But our other part of the family was over in the Netherlands.
INTERVIEWER: That was a major part of your family. You really got to experience a major part of your
roots.
BALE: Right, right.
INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome.
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�BALE: And our second trip, we took another trip, we took two trips, anyways those were wonderful,
precious memories.
INTERVIEWER: That’s really cool that you got to do that.
GRAHUIS: And I took her and my middle daughter, I took them to Australia.
INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah, that was recent.
GRAHUIS: Last year, January, yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah I can remember, just more recent years just all the times we would come to your
house, like especially when the Yates were living in Cincinnati. I remember going to your house for
Christmas and stuff and the whole family would be there. Go out to Penn Hill, camp in Big Rapids. Go
there and yeah, I just remember going to Thanksgiving at your house and just coming down and visiting,
going to church with you guys.
GRAHUIS: See, those are all wonderful memories, yeah.
INTERVIEWER: I remember mom, well I don’t remember you, I remember the video of you guys getting
married in the backyard. That’s really fun.
BALE: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: What about big events like, in the news and stuff when you were in, after you moved to
the U.S.. Do you remember, like, the Martin Luther King Jr. “I had a Dream” or do you remember all that
stuff?
GRAHUIS: No.
BALE: Do you remember Kennedy being shot?
GRAHUIS: Oh yes. Yes. I remember that one, because you were a baby, I was feeding you. And the radio,
it said that the president had been killed.
BALE: Any other big events?
INTERVIEWER: Vietnam War, or?
GRAHUIS: No I don’t remember much about that.
BALE: Do you remember much about civil rights, mom?
GRAHUIS: No.
BALE: What was going on in Detroit?
GRAHUIS: No.
BALE: African Americans?
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�GRAHUIS: I don’t, I’d have to think about it first.
BALE: What music?
GRAHUIS: Music?
BALE: What kind of music were you
INTERVIEWER: You love the organ music.
BALE: Yeah, Opa was big into organ music. That was also another thing.
GRAHUIS: Yeah, I love guitar music.
INTERVIEWER: That’s good.
GRAHUIS: That’s how he learned.
INTERVIEWER: That’s one of the reasons.
GRAHUIS: I have two guitars.
BALE: We had an old, and this is another part of growing up Dutch, is Dad played the organ, and we had
an old pump organ in our house, and he would, all the family would come over, he would pump the
organ and we would all sing hymns around the organ. And that’s what we would do when we would all
get together. Youd have coffee, or another big Dutch thing is drinks.
INTERVIEWER: Wine.
GRAHUIS: Glass of wine.
BALE: Little glass of wine.
GRAHUIS: Like we had last night. We don’t overdo it. Oh no, just a little bit.
BALE: We would play the pump organ and we would all sing around the pump organ. People don’t do
that anymore.
INTERVIEWER: It’s kind of like the American the American idea of singing around the campfire with a
guitar and stuff.
BALE: Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah
GRAHUIS: Where’s my purse. I need to take my medication.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, my grandma really likes to do that, get around the piano or something and sing
songs and stuff.
BALE: Oh really?
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�INTERVIEWER: Is your grandma Dutch? Yeah she is. Yeah.
BALE: I think that was a big thing with the Dutch is that, and that’s what you did growing up, is that after
church, you would go to either your uncles or your aunts and you would all get together for coffee.
GRAHUIS: Yeah, we did.
BALE: And we’d always have we’d always talk and you’d have cookies and yeah, just gathering and
hanging out.
INTERVIEWER: Exactly.
BALE: And no computers.
GRAHUIS: No, no computers.
BALE: And the cousins would play together.
GRAHUIS: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, good times.
INTERVIEWER: Good food and good company. I said good food and good company. That’s great.
GRAHUIS: Yeah. So, we should not forget that I have to go to my bible study.
BALE: Yeah, she has a gathering to get to.
INTERVIEWER: What time? It’s okay.
BALE: Six o’clock I have to be at a restaurant.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. We’ll make sure, we’ll make sure. Is there anything else you remember from,
anything else, anything you want to share, about anything? Anything you want to be written about? Like
we’re going to be writing a paper on this. Is there anything you want us to acknowledge?
GRAHUIS: .
BALE: Can I say something? I remember a very important event which I was able to go with you, was
when I was at Calvin, I think it was at Calvin. or I was living in Grand Rapids going to school and you
wanted to become a U.S. citizen. So I went down to, down to the courthouse, or I don’t remember, it
was in Grand Rapids somewhere, and we went into a big room with many other folks from all different
countries. We sat there, we went, we sat through an entire ceremony, and all the flags were
represented, and then you receive your American citizenship. That was a really cool time. And you had
to say the Pledge of Allegiance. It was really awesome.
INTERVIEWER: Did your dad do that too?
BALE: He did, but earlier.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
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�BALE: I wasn’t around when dad became a citizen.
GRAHUIS: No, dad went into the military. That’s, automatically how you become a citizen.
INTERVIEWER: Oh okay, that makes sense.
BALE: I also remember you did not graduate from, you never received your diploma from the
Netherlands from high school.
GRAHUIS: I got it when I came here.
BALE: She went into America, you got your GED, you had to study, you had to take a test to get your
high school diploma. I don’t know why you never graduated.
INTERVIEWER: When did you get your diploma in high school? Were you alive, Mom? BALE: Oh yeah.
Oh, I remember mom, I was in, I think I was in junior high or high school. I was in, yeah, you were
studying for your GED because you wanted to graduate.
INTERVIEWER: But you still had jobs and everything, you know? The difference between now and then.
Now you have to go to college to get a job. It’s crazy. How was learning English? Was that difficult?
GRAHUIS: Yeah, well I learned that in high school. We take, we learned.
BALE: In the Netherlands.
GRAHUIS: Yeah, we take German, French, English. All those.
BALE: Italian?
GRAHUIS: No, not Italian.
BALE: Oh I thought you did.
INTERVIEWER: So you know them all?
GRAHUIS: Well French I don’t, I never kept up. I know German. I know of course English and Dutch. All
those languages I studied.
INTERVIEWER: That makes sense. So by the time you came to America, you were fluent in English?
GRAHUIS: Well, I can’t say fluent. I did my best.
INTERVIEWER: You could understand, Okay. Well that’s cool.
GRAHUIS: When I came to this country I was living with my sister, and they would they would listen to
the radio orthings I didn’t understand, hut you learn.
INTERVIEWER: You put yourself in the environment and you kind of learn how it is.
GRAHUIS: Yeah, yeah.
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�INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. I think that’s good. Is there anything else you want to share?
GRAHUIS: Not that I know of.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
GRAHUIS: We’ll have another meeting sometime.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. That’s the interview.
END OF INTERVIEW
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�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b10abc3d867c92b3a07cd428e0fe1569.mp3
2dd12b6b79bfc5f986c60c3971c2204d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights--Michigan--History
Personal narratives
Oral histories
African Americans--Personal narratives
Gays--Personal narratives
Lesbians--Personal narratives
Bisexual people--Personal narratives
Transgender people--Personal narratives
Veterans--Personal narratives
Women--Personal narratives
People with disabilities--Personal narratives
Muslims--United States--Personal narratives
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Homophobia
Discrimination
Islamophobia
Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012.
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Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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2017-05-02
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
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Sound
Text
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GV248-01
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1930-2011
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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GV248-01_Grahuis_Helen
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Helen Grahuis audio interview and transcript
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Grahuis, Helen
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Cohen, Alissa
Frazer, Hannah
Byker, Bryce
Bale, Eli
Description
An account of the resource
Helen Grahius was born and raised in Haren, Groningen, Netherlands. Later in life, she moved to West Michigan to be with her siblings. She discusses her life in the Netherlands and in the United States.
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Women--Personal narratives
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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Sound
Text
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project
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2012-03-16
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2c0af2a1c11063ed344b4255a34963e.pdf
0b82b6a3a6e5bc67320cc4eb5e509b40
PDF Text
Text
Speaking Out
Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Interviewee: Kadi DeHaan
Interviewers: Kelly Petrauskas, Andrew Felice, Fred Helms and Zachary Felice
Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/14/2012
Biography and Description
Kadi DeHaan was in a car accident when she was in high school. She lost feelings and use of her legs.
She has been in rehabilitationand is learning muscle memory. She is in great progress toward her
goal of walking again. She discusses her accident and how it has changed her life.
Transcript
PETRAUSKAS: Could you please give us some basic information about yourself?
DEHAAN: Yes. first of all today is March 14th it’s a Wednesday evening at about 7PM. My name is Kadi
DeHaan and I’m 23 years old. My birthday is April 22, 1988. I come from a family of four, and I have two
older half sisters as well, and one younger sister and I have my parents still. we are in Byron Center
Michigan. I was born in Grand Rapids and I grew up in Byron Center my whole life yeah.
PETRAUSKAS: Airight, could you tell us a little bit about your childhood?
DEHAAN: Yup. When I was a child I remember me and my sister were really close. We were really good
friends. we always, my morn always tell us stories “You always had your sister sit there and you’d have
her play teacher and have her listen” and I remember we’d always go to my grandpa’s. He had a pool,
we went swimming there a lot. We’d have friends over there. in Kindergarten I had a best friend his
name was Jeremy. I came home and said “Mom I met a cute boy on the bus today” and she thought that
was pretty funny. I didn’t tell her what I learned, I just said I met a cute boy. And, him along with like
four other friends lived right behind us. since I was little we went camping every summer, started out at
the Yogi Bear camp grounds in Grand Haven and Silver Lake.
LAJDZIAK: How old is your sister, is your sister pretty close to your age?
DEHAAN: My younger sister is two years younger than me. We hang out a lot, yup. She’s my best friend.
My two older half sisters are 35 and 31. They’re both married and have kids, but we still see one of them
pretty often.
LAJDZIAK: Alright, they still live in Michigan?
DEHAAN: Yeah, one lives in Holland and one lives in Hudsonville.
Page 1
�LAJDZIAK: How old’s your grandpa’s who you said you used to go swim at?
DEHAAN: he passed away about ten years ago.
LAJDZIAK: And he used to live...?
DEHAAN: He used to live on 64th street which was right across the street from us.
LAJDZIAK: Oh airight, so this isn’t your first place?
DEHAAN: No, this isn’t my first house. We actually lived next door for 9 years and we’ve lived here for
three.
LAJDZIAK: Oh, alright.
DEHAAN: But otherwise we grew up on 64th street and like Byron Avenue.
LAJDZIAK: Airight.
DEHAAN: Hrnhmm.
LAJDZIAK: Want to go on to more of uh, middle school and..?
DEHAAN: Yup, in middle school I pretty much had the same friends. I started playing volleyball which I
really enjoyed. I was the setter. And I was just learning as I was starting but it was a lot of fun to me. still
went camping in middle school I guess I’ve done that since I was a baby. I remember in middle school
and the beginning of high school me and my friend Jill used to go roller skating every week at the Byron
hot spot or fun spot or whatever it was called.other than that yeah we went roller skating. Oh, I
remember we’d go to the mall like every Friday night too. We’d play at that Kahunaville. They had
games there and stuff.
LAJDZIAK: In Grand Rapids?
DEHAAN: In, at Rivertown yeah, in Grandville, yeah. Actually I did that with my friend Kara. She started
to become...her and Jill were my two best friends in Middle school. And then as I went on to highschool I
still had the same friends then I started dating Mike Reading. Uh, we dated for about a year about a half,
still played volleyball in high school. I went to the school dances. I enjoyed doing that. Really just to hang
out with my friends, we’d do normal...hang out at each others houses whatever
PETRAUSKAS: So how long have you played volleyball, when did you first start playing volleyball and
when, how long and how late did you play volleyball.
DEHAAN: I played volleyball from 7th grade until 10th grade.
PETRAUSKAS: And was that the only sport you played throughout that period of time?
DEHAAN: Yes. That was the only sport that I played. yeah.
PETRAUSKAS: Did you play any recreational, like at home, with your friends at the beach?
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�DEHAAN: I played at the beach and with my friends. Rollerblading was my favorite thing to do, I loved to
rollerblade.
PETRAUSKAS: Would you go certain places for rollerblading, would you go down any certain trails?
DEHAAN: We’d go down the Kent trail and then I’d also go in Grand Haven just all over town.
PETRAUSKAS: And so tell us about like your freshman and sophomore year in high school. Just kid of
basically like you said you went to a bunch of dances and stuff, like how many dances did you guys have
each year?
DEHAAN: Ok. like each year we had homecoming, sweatheart dance and then prom was junior and
senior year. I went to most of them ‘cause I was dating this guy and we had to go together. yeah.
LAJDZIAK: You dated him through sophomore year then, 10th grade?
DEHAAN: Yes. Actually up to 11th grade.
LAJDZIAK: Up to 11th grade...and was he the one you were chasing.
DEHAAN: Yes.
LAJDZIAK: Airight.
PETRAUSKAS: Hahaha.
LAJDZIAK: I guess I shouldn’t move into that then haha. I was just wondering.
PETRAUSKAS: So, you said you were dating for about three years or so?
DEHAAN: We dated for like a year and a half. Like the last six months of the relationship wasn’t great so,
like we were gonna break up soon anyways.
LAJDZIAK: That was around junior year?
DEHAAN: Yeah.
LAJDZIAK: Junior year..
PETRAUSKAS: So what kind of music did you listen to back in the day?
DEHAAN: Oh, I thought I was ganster back in the day so I listened to rap music, drover my car really fast,
windows down. Yes, I thought I was pretty cool.
PETRAUSKAS: And what kind of car did you drive?
DEHAAN: I had a ‘97 Pontiac Bonneville. My mother gave it to me.
PETRAUSKAS: That was very nice of her.
DEHAAN: She got a new one. That was her old car.
Page 3
�LAJDZIAK: Cool.
DEHAAN: Mhmm.
FELICE: So when you were driving really fast with the windows down and the music up were you being
safe?
DEHAAN: I would get on the highway, I was just telling my teacher this the other day, I would get on the
highway and I would go like a hundred. So stupid. I think of it now like I was crazy.
LAJDZIAK: Yeah..
DEHAAN: Mhmm.
PETRAUSKAS: And had you ever been pulled over?
DEHAAN: No.
PETRAUSKAS: No?
DEHAAN: Nope.
LAJDZIAK: No tickets?
DEHAAN: No tickets.
PETRAUSKAS: That’s good for you.
LAJDZIAK: Did you get your permit when you were 16...14 and 9 months?
DEHAAN: Oh I got it probably the day I could get it, yeah ‘cause when I was..before I could drive I would
mow the lawn and I would drive my moms car up and down our little cul de-sac here like, for hours. So I
was very excited to get my license.
LAJDZIAK: Yeah, kind of living out here, with all the space you could get on different things whether it’s a
lawn mower or a four wheeler or..
DEHAAN: Yeah. We had a four wheeler too. (Whispering): So should I say that one day I was hanging out
with my boyfriend and we got in an argument and tell that whole story?
LAJDZIAK: Yeah, yeah.
PETRAUSKAS: Ok, so tell us a little bit more about your junior year. What happened after you
sophomore year?
DEHAAN: Ok, my junior year I was just having so much fun in high school, I loved it. I hung out with my
friends a lot. I wasn’t home much, I was always with my friends. a couple months into the school year on
October 8, 2004, I was hanging out with my boyfriend at the time and we had gotten into an argument
and he left his house and I followed, I was gonna go home. I was driving behind him, trying to catch up
with him, and the road, the roads were not great. It was dark out, it was raining. I was driving, I
Page 4
�remember I was driving over. I came over the hill and I saw the red light and thought “oh ,it’ll turn green
soon, I can just go and speed around all these people and I can catch up to him. Well I thought wrong
and I hydroplaned and went into oncoming traffic where a car hit me and I flew out of the windshield
and my car blew up after that, which I didn’t have my seatbelt on which I was lucky for then So the
ambulance came, I don’t remember much after this but I guess I was giving them everybody’s phone
numbers like my moms, my boyfriends and I was like “you have to call them! Blah blah blah.” And so
they brought me to the hospital and they got a hold of my parents...and they, my parents came down
and when my parents got there, they wouldn’t tell them what happened to me. They said they had to go
in this back room with somebody and my mom, she just knew I was dead. She, she just knew it because
they always, they tell what’s wrong with whoever’s at the hospital unless like something really really bad
has happened. So when the doctor finally came out and told my parents what happened, I broke my
neck and I have a C5-C6 spinal cord injury which means, I couldn’t move my legs, my hands were
affected uh, but I still had feeling. But I couldn’t move any thing. (Whispering): So do you want me to
just go on, keep going into the care.
PETRAUSKAS: So like how long...you had said you passed out blacked out after you came out of the car.
was there a certain time you remember regaining, like, thought and knowing where you were?
DEHAAN: Yeah, it was a couple days later. The first memory I have of being in the hospital is uh, one of
the nurses washing my hair.
LAJDZIAK: So you were in the hospital for a couple...?
DEHAAN: I was in intensive care for three weeks and at first I couldn’t even breathe on my own. They
had like a ventilator down my throat helping me breathe and they didn’t even know if I would get off
that.
LAJDZIAK: Wow.
DEHAAN: Mhmrn.
PETRAUSKAS: And have you talked to your parents about that first day and how they felt when they first
received that call or anything along those lines?
DEHAAN: Yes, I actually just talked about it to my mom yesterday actually and she said she was just
numb. She doesn’t remember like the first two weeks, she wouldn’t come home from the hospital and
finally when she did for a little bit to sleep she got a call from her friend and her friend was like “are you
sitting down? Are you sitting down?” She’s like “what are you talking about?” And she’s like “I heard it
on the news, Kadi died.” And my mom’s like “what?! I was just up there, no she didn’t.” And so my mom
freaked out, hung up and called my dad and was like “is she ok?! Is she ok?!” And he’s like “Yes she’s
fine, the news had it wrong. She’s perfectly fine, I’m sitting here right with her right now.” And my
mom’s like “you’re lying to me, just because I’m not there!”and he’s like “no I’m not, she’s really ok.” So
just, she doesn’t remember.. she didn’t even remember how to get home. She couldn’t’ even think.
LAJDZIAK: How well, like other family like your sister that you’re close tO...
Page 5
�DEHAAN: My sister was a mess too and I guess the first time I got to talk to her I said “Ally it’s ok, the
doctor said I just might have to be in a wheelchair a little while.” And she just started bawling, but I
just...
LAJDZIAK: So they came to the hospital too?
DEHAAN: Yeah, they were there that night, yeah. And I still had a sense of humor, I was, I told my mom I
was like, before I was going in the surgery I was like “mom, will you check my nose for any boogers? Like
there might be a cute doctor in there or something,”
LAJDZIAK: How about like grandparents, family friends, long time family friends. How did they react?
DEHAAN: Everyone was just shocked and my grandparents were up there I remember, well I don’t
remember, I remember because I was told. A lot of my friends and people I hardly knew in high school
tried coming to visit me, but they wouldn’t allow visitors while I was in intensive care.
LAJDZIAK: And then when you got out of intensive care you came back here? Were you in the hospital
for a while longer?
DEHAAN: I went to Marry Free Bed for three months where, like when I went there I was still on the
feeding tube, I kinda slowly got better. Like when I was in intensive care they finally, I like lean myself off
the ventilator so I could breathe on my own. Otherwise I would have still been there I think. so they let
me go to Marry Free Bed with just a feeding tube where that’s pretty much where I was going to live in
my wheelchair.
PETRAUSKAS: In intensive care I know you have a little bit of, you kind of found some humor in certain
things like what exactly went through you head? What were you thinking when you kind of figured out
what happened, and what you were doing now, where you were at? What were you thinking about the
future? Anything along those lines.
DEHAAN: I don’t think I did think about the future. I think I just thought of the moment and was just
going to get through it. I didn’t think bad thoughts, like every time somebody was like “oh no!” I was like
“it’ll be ok.” Like I was doing the best out of everybody so..
PETRAUSKAS: So you basically just tried to remain positive and use that to your advantage?
DEHAAN: Yeah, exactly.
LAJDZIAK: So basically when you came, finally came back home what...how did was, did that feel I
guess? I mean obviously it had to be different but maybe you were like in bed like stuck for a while and
couldn’t really move at all?
DEHAAN: when I was at Marry Free Bed for a while I didn’t want to move because it was scary, like being
in a wheelchair and I like couldn’t, like, do anything I thought I was going to fall out like, I had straps all
over me and my mom was like “you can’t take those off it’ll look silly” and I was like “no!” Also, I forgot I
had a halo for three months as well because I broke my neck and it was screwed into my skull in four
Page 6
�places to hold my neck still. So that means I couldn’t take a shower for three months, I had to take a
bath in bed everyday. And it was just, not fun.
PETRAUSKAS: Were they feeding you through the tubes and everything?
DEHAAN: Finally I remember, my dad, he would because I had to eat so many calories a day before they
took the feeding tube out, so he would like pretend that I ate because he didn’t want me to be on it
anymore but like even they would have me eat like a Kit Kat or something because I wasn’t, I just didn’t
have an appetite. I think I lost like twenty pounds and I was, I wasn’t big to begin with so, yeah. Okay
then you said after, oh yeah so coming home from the hospital was scary, like, there wasn’t gonna be all
that help there was just gonna be my parents and my sister helping me, and I really thought it was, it
was really scary but got through it and I just, I knew that I was just gonna just get out of this wheel chair.
I wasn’t gonna live like they told me I was gonna, I was gonna do everything I could to walk again. Which
I really think helped my positive attitude and helped me going because it just, just did. I remember...
LAJDZIAK: Did you come back to, is this the house you were living in? Next door?
DEHAAN: No, this is not the house. Yes, next door is where we lived. When I got in my car accident my
dad was in the process of building this house, so he pretty much just stopped building because he was
gonna have to make changes, so.
PETRAUSKAS: Then what changes, and like I know your parents had to deal with the situation kind of as
it came, uh and so what renovations and what things can they do to make uh, more suitable for you or
for the family?
DEHAAN: Mhmm..They had to widen the doors, It’s a pretty open floor plan so they didn’t have to do a
ton. And then they also put an elevator in our house and some of our floors were sunken like that. Like
the whole living room was supposed to be sunken so they raised that up. But, Other than that they
didn’t do... They basically just widening the door ways and the elevator.
FELICE: How did your daily activities change during this period?
DEHAAN: During this period I couldn’t do anything by myself. Like, make meals, I could hardly eat by
myself because my hands were not great at all. like, showering I needed help with that. I needed help
getting dressed. Like everything changed. I totally lost my independency and I was so independent
before the car accident. So it was, it was totally different but I mean I had so much support that it
helped me so much. Like,my mom was there with me all the time, my sister was there all the time, my
dad helped me with everything. Most people, they’ll get like a care-giving or something but its nicer with
just my family helping me.
LAJDZIAK: How about like you said you had a couple best friends, like are they still around?
DEHAAN: Yes. Right after my car accident my best friend Jill, she visited me a lot. Like, I was able to go
out on outings while I was at Mary Free Bed so she’d come up and we’d goout to dinner. My mom
would come with, obviously. But we’d go to dinner, we’d go to the mall or we’d go to a movie or
something. Uh, she stuck by me like, so much. We hung out like every single day. my other best friends
Page 7
�were Tiffany and Kara and they came and visited a couple times but just, that was about it. I mean we
still stayed friends but we weren’t like best friends like we were. Everybody was just kinda like in shock
and didn’t really know how to treat me after the accident
FELICE: Did you grow closer to your friends and family after the accident?
DEHAAN: My family for sure, definitely. After about a year of me and Jill hanging out we kinda just went
our separate ways. Like she got a job after the accident. And she went to beauty school and I was in, I
was going to Davenport. (whispering) I guess this was still in high school wasn’t it? So through high
school we were still really good friends but after that...
LAJDZIAK: And then were you able to finish out high school.. (inaudible)
DEHAAN: Yeah, I got out of the hospital in about January I think. And then I went back to school in
February. Which my sister helped me a ton, like going to classes ‘cause I didn’t have like a wheelchair I
could push, they just gave me one like that I was sent home with. So I needed a lot of help after the
accident.
LAJDZIAK: And your sister was a freshman?
DEHAAN: Yeah she was fourteen.
PETRAUSKAS: So she was taking care of you most of the time and was there by your side?
DEHAAN: Yeah. She had to grow up fast.
PETRAUSKAS: And then kind of back to more of your friends again.
DEHAAN: Mhmm?
PETRAUSKAS: That boyfriend you said to have been chasing that night. How did your relationship end up
with him?
DEHAAN: He came up to the hospital the night of and kept saying “it’s all my fault it’s all my fault” ‘cause
he knew that he saw the car accident and he kept driving. So that’s why he thought it was all his fault.
LAJDZIAK: But he didn’t know you were chasing him? Or just...
DEHAAN: He knew it was me, he didn’t stop to help.
LAJDZIAK: Really?
DEHAAN: Yes. So he came up a couple more times. I still wanted to be with him but just, it was so smart
that I am not with him any more. So smart.
LAJDZIAK: ‘Cause it was kinda already...
DEHAAN: It was kinda already going down hill anyways, so..
LAJDZIAK: And then you don’t keep in touch with him at all or anything?
Page 8
�DEHAAN: No, no. Nope.
LAJDZIAK: And then after...most, majority of people after high school kinda just moved on and...
DEHAAN: Yeah, I kinda talked to one friends from high school but that’s about it. Made new friends in
college and...
LAJDZIAK: And how about them, are they coming over all the time? And do things with them?
DEHAAN: Yep. Going over their house, coming over. They got to meet me after the car accident so it was
nothing to them of the wheelchair. That was just how they knew me. they’re helpful. They help me in
wherever I go. I have one friend John who will carry me anywhere. And then his fiancé Tara is one of my
good friends. Stephanie I hang out with a lot. We go downtown, go shopping, watch our nightly shows
together
LAJDZIAK: Do you feel like your friends in high school treated you differently than your friends in college
just because they knew you before the accident, during the accident?
DEHAAN: I wouldn’t say so much treating me differently I would say we just grew apart and, yeah, it was
bound to happen I think. Whether, if the car accident happened or not.
LAJDZIAK: Yeah, once you leave high school you...
DEHAAN: Yeah.
PETRAUSKAS: And I know you kinda explained uh, that you were over here a lot and you went over there
a lot. I know you guys made modifications here to suit your daily life, how difficult was it to go hang out
at other places like their homes, that may not be as nearly accessible to your...
DEHAAN: Well really when I get asked to a friends house I’m like, well can I get in? But if it was with John
I didn’t really worry because he just carried me everywhere, then I just had to worry about if I could fit in
the bathroom which is normally I can’t fit in the bathroom anywhere. So I didn’t really worry about it a
lot but it was always in the back of my mind. “Is this gonna be ok? Am I gonna be able to get in the
house?” so a iot of times I had friends over here but if they have people over there, I go over to their
houses and it didn’t matter, he’ll carry me anywhere. So..
PETRAUSKAS: How about when you go out in public, like to stores or restaurants. How, how different is
that?
DEHAAN: I get stared at a lot. I get rude comments, I get really nice comments. the staring is everywhere
I go. Like every time I go out I get starred at. So I’m just used to it now. My sister, she’s with me she will
stand up for me. But half the time nobody sees anyone staring at me just ‘cause its be like seven years.
But at first it was hard to deal with. Like I’m like “Why is everyone staring at me?” And my mom would
always tell me “oh it’s just because you’re so pretty” and I’m like “yeah right mom.” Haha yeah...
KADI’S DAD: Can I interject?
LAJDZIAK: Yeah.
Page 9
�KADI’S DAD: When we go on vacation, planned vacation, we go to Mexico or we go to Jamaica. We do
have to take into account that we have to find the handicap accessible place down there so, we do look
for things like that.
LAJDZIAK: Would you say that in other countries its not as like access...as like...I feel like in the US I feel
like most places are kinda required to have that be accessible and then when you go down to Mexico is
that very different?
KADI’S DAD: Well like I said, we had to look at several different resorts to find the one that was capable
of handling her so.
PETRAUSKAS: How about transportation like on the flights and stuff. I can only imagine how difficult that
is.
KADI’S DAD: I carry her on and off the busses down there, stuff like that.
DEHAAN: They do have people to assist at airports to carry me on and off, but if my family’s with they’ll
just carry me instead. that brings up another thing I’ve been to Russia 10 times for steam cells, that is a
whole trip in itself, for not being accessible, where we go I mean its for people who cant walk and are in
wheel chairs so the place is accessible. But its just a culture shock and people who are in accidents there
and are in wheel chairs there they go to live in an institution because they don’t have houses there its all
apartments so they don’t have elevators they just go upstairs so everybody who is in an accident is just
taking away from their family and they live in an institution. Where they pretty much just don’t do
anything. So yea but I been to Russia for stem cells they are embryonic..not embryonic they are my own
stem cells they come from my bone maro.m we kinda check into this like a year after... 2 years after my
accident. You want me to keep going on that.
LAJDZIAK: Yeah
DEHAAN: Two years after my accident it was my first trip there it was in june of 2006 my mom did a ton
of research and I actually knew somebody who went there and was getting good results from this.. so I
was like well heck yea lets give it a try, and since my injury was incomplete that means there is like a
chance for me to recover. So that’s a good spinal cord injury if you could say there is a good one. That’s
what it is incomplete. So yea the first time I went there they did a.. I got shots for 4 days which made the
stem cells from my bone maro flow into my blood and then they did a blood transfusion to get then
stem cells out. And then they put them into like 20 vials so that each time I went back I would get like 2
injections. after the first visit I was able to sweat again which sounds funny because you don’t think that
because you have a spinal cord injury you cant sweat but yess, and the sun worshoper that I am it was
nice to get back into the sun and not almost pass out. So after the first 3 timess..
LAJDZIAK: So you go back there every...?
DEHAAN: I went every 3 months in the beginning, so it was almost like we got home and we went back
again. I was also doing therapy here, in the United states. Detriot so almost 2 aand a half hours away
from my house, so intense therapy 4 days a week, 3 hours a day. then they finally got one closer to my
house in grand rapids. So I was doing that at the same time while getting these injections because if you
Page
10
�don’t do therapy and get these injections it doesn’t help you. You have to be doing tharepy while getting
them.
LAJDZIAK: So I just promotes healing..
DEHAAN: It like.., how do I word this..it reconnects the nerves in the spinal cord so that the connection
can go through again.
LAJDZIAK: Yeah right.
DEHAAN: What happened to my spinal cord it was like brusied not like cevered or anything. So I don’t
know.
FELICE: So does like the therapy like try to stimulate the nerves and try to get them to work
DEHAAN: At therapy yes.. before when I wasn’t able to walk. like do anything with my legs. They would
like walk them for me. and I would just do like core strengthening, hand therapy, all sorts of things to try
to walk again.
LAJDZIAK: So the stem cell what is it called
PETRAUSKAS: Stem cells
LAJDZIAK: So the stem cell in Russia helped your hands too
DEHAAN: Yeah it held everything.
LAJDZIAK: Alright
DEHAAN: Yea the stem cells after about 3 trips going there. I was at therapy one day and they were
walking my legs on the paralla bar like they always did and all of a suddenly I lifted up my right leg. They
were like woah, do it again, so I did it again. So like my physical therapist was like try it with the other
one. So I lifted up my left like and everybody was like holy crap.. am I aloud to say crap?
LAJDZIAK: Yeah
DEHAAN: They were just like shocked and it was like not controlled at all. But it was like I was still lifting
up my leg. And moving it forward. So the walking definitely came from the stem cells.
LAJDZIAK: Quickly
DEHAAN: Yeah and obviously I had to go to therapy on top of the stem cells. Or the stem cell wouldn’t
know what to do, so I continued that for probably like a year. With being able to lift my legs and little bit
but still needing assistance. And then after so long I was able to control my legs on my own. Like I still
couldn’t move them when I was sitting in my chair but when I would stand up. I was able to walk
LAJDZIAK: Are you still going to Russia for stem cells?
DEHAAN: I haven’t been to Russia in 2 years.
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�LAJDZIAK: Instead of going to Russia your just continuing therapy
DEHAAN: Yeah I’m continuing to do therapy, probably after the walking was going really good like no
assistance just like walking canes. But no body had to stand behind me or anything thing. I got
phenomena and it set me back a year which is crazy I never know phenomena could effect my walking
but it did. And then after a year of being set back I was able to do it again I had to slowly, re learn pretty
much.. my walking again. And then when I got doing really good again I hurt my back and have a
herniated disk at L5 Si. I got hurt at therapy. I aslo have really bad spasms, like muscle spasms in my legs
like my leg will kick straight and you cant hardly bend it those got worse when the herniated disk
happened. Because my reaction to pain is more spasms, if that makes sense.
LAJDZIAK: Where you at know like being able to walk... and ?
DEHAAN: Ok the herniated disk happened two years ago I couldn’t do anything. For at least a year.
Couldn’t even stand my left leg it was just stay straight up in the air. Like it wouldn’t stay down. I
couldn’t drive...m last year... im trying to think., my years get so mixed up.. for probably a year now I
have been back to being able to walk again. On Monday I walked 2 laps around the track, without
stopping which is huge for me. Today I walked 1 and a half laps. Which is.. one lap is 542 feet. When I
first started walking I would go 20 feet and have to sit down and then I would go more like a 100 feet
and have to sit down. And then like 200 feet.
LAJDZIAK: Do you get tired or is it like painful?
DEHAAN: Its not painful at all. Tired I get fatigued.. more like my walking gets sloppy and ill sit down and
rest and my walking will get better when I stand back up.
LAJDZIAK: So you don’t use like anything to help you walk?
DEHAAN: I use walking canes and my trainer does stand behind me just incase.
LAJDZIAK: And you said you had a fractured disk like a L5 51
DEHAAN: I hurt it at therapy.. I don’t know how that happened.. I think I was walking at therapy and I
went to fall and my trainer grabbed me by this belt I have so I was like hanging there by this belt and my
back like twisted wrong.. and my parents both have back problems too so it hereditary.
LAJDZIAK: But you don’t experience any pain like right now? Kadi right now no.. I did have pain I was like
sweating all the time and just deprived me from walking.
LAJDZIAK: how did you get phenomena if you don’t mind me asking.
DEHAAN: I got sick and my lungs weren’t good I guess.
LAJDZIAK: I have had phenomena too so I was just wondering.
FELICE: It seems like your life has had a lot of turmoil have you offered you story to other people as like
insperiation.
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�DEHAAN: I feel like my story does inspire people even like where I work out these people see me for 6
years and they’ll come up to me and say like heyy your doing really good, and they notice me up there
walking and when I’m not up there walking. So they say I do inspire a lot of people. Actually yesterday I
went to talk a drivers training class. Talk to them about, driving in conditions either you emotions are
different or the weather is effected.
PETRAUSKAS: Explain a little bit about how driving ahs changed since the accident. So your able to do
the old way what kind of new stuff did you have to learn to drive again.
DEHAAN: I had to take drivers training all over again. I started driving like this huge bus van. Like it was
ginormous and I took it in Detroit, where I was doing therapy. He said I would probably need like 20 or
30 hours of driving. I did like 10 and he said I was good because I caught onto it real fast. I have to drive
with hand controls so I haveone hand on the steering wheel and one hand on my left hand does the gas
and break you pull for the gas and push for the break. so that was a learning a whole new way of driving
but it didn’t seem abnormal.
PETRAUSKAS: And your able to drive by yourself?
DEHAAN: Yeah I’m able to drive by myself. I have a van that has a ramp on it so I just hit the button door
opens and the ramp comes down.
LAJDZIAK: So you go right out the back then
DEHAAN: No it’s the side.
LAJDZIAK: So the whole driver side?
DEHAAN: It’s the passenger side; you like wanna see it don’t you.
LAJDZIAK: Yeah I wanna see what it looks like.. ohh the white one
DEHAAN: Yea so the door opens and the ramp like its folded up and it flips down.
LAJDZIAK: But you can drive right?
DEHAAN: Yeah I drive from my chair.
LAJDZIAK: Ohh alright so there is like no driver seat.
DEHAAN: Yeah no driver seat.
FELICE: How does your chair like lock in?
DEHAAN: There’s a bolt that it locks in.
PETRAUSKAS: And so your still able to cruse down the road with your windows down?
DEHAAN: Yes haha but I don’t go as fast
LAJDZIAK: How bout the rap music
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�DEHAAN: Noo no rap music country all the way.
LAJDZIAK: Thats what we had to listen to on the way over.
PETRAUSKAS: Excuse me
LAJDZIAK: Do they make a lot of cars like that?
DEHAAN: They do make trucks I know. I didn’t want one of those because I hate the snow and you have
to like transfer when you get in, and I like to be in and out. I know they make trucks, vans, and some
people don’t have anything they just lift themselves in and they have hand controls.
LAJDZIAK: Is that like a private company that did it or did Honda do it?
DEHAAN: It’s a Toyota so. the Toyota van goes to its called clock conversions. They are on 68th street
luckly they’re close., and they modify everything
PETRAUSKAS: My question is how financially difficult this has been to get everything to par with where
your at in life.
DEHAAN: Yea that’s a good question. Since I was in an auto accident my insurance they pay for like
everything that I would need which I am so fortunate for like there are so many expenses. They bought
my van 70 thousand dollars. Like I would not be driving if I had to pay 70 thousand dollars there’s no
way. luckily my parents were able to pay for every trip to Russia, which is also not cheap. So fortunately
auto insurance pays for everything I need so that my parents are able to afford things like going to
Russia.
LAJDZIAK: When you like did the company like clock conversion did they recommend a certain car for
you to get?
DEHAAN: My first one was a dodge caravan and then the contract that was up and had to get me a new
one.
PETRAUSKAS: So of course, I think you already touched on it that you enjoy driving.
DEHAAN: Yeah
PETRAUSKAS: Do you like to drive?
DEHAAN: mhmm, yup
LAJDZIAK: And then...How about seatbelts? Do you feel like your keen on them or not?
DEHAAN: Now I always wear my seat belt.
LAJDZIAK: Do you tell other people to put on their seatbelts before you start the car?
DEHAAN: Yes, I do. And my passenger seat has the beeper, so it doesn’t stop beeping until you put the
seatbelt on so.
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�FELICE: Do you think in the future you want to more stuff like talk to drivers ed classes about driver’s
safety and stuff.
DEHAAN: Yeah, I totally would. Yeah, I think that would be really good. Maybe that will teach them to
slow down, and not think they are so cool, drive fast.
PETRAUSKAS: When you driving, just knowing what has happened in the past. Do you ever think of that
when you’re driving? Or do you think of anything bad possibly happening again? Or anything like that?
DEHAAN: Sometimes I think of something bad happening again. Like if people try to get in my lane. I’m
just like woo, what are you doing? It freaks me out. l would say my driving in the rain still does scare me
still. l can’t see when its dark out and it’s raining. Everything just like blurs together. so that defiantly still
scares me. But otherwise driving on nice days...
LAJDZIAK: Do you try to avoid driving on days where...
DEHAAN: I wouldn’t say I avoid, I’m just extra cautious.
FELICE: Have you driven by the spot of the accident?
DEHAAN: Yeah, and actually for a while there was a burn mark for years. They cover it up, finally they
repaved a year ago...last summer maybe. Yeah. It didn’t bother me to drive over that spot.
PETRAUSKAS: How often do you actually do it? Do you maybe make time out of your day and just go,
every once and a while, and visit that spot?
DEHAAN: No, I would say I visit that spot. But its right in town, it’s on my way in to Byron Center. So if
I’m going into town, I’m going to pass it. Half the time I don’t think twice what happened there.
LAJDZIAK: I got questions but he’s distracting me. how about the car? Did they junk the car or?
DEHAAN: Yeah yup
LAJDZIAK: How did you get hit during the accident? Was it a head on collision or?
DEHAAN: I don’t know. I think it was from the back the way the picture looks. But I don’t remember. l
think probably from the back which made me go through the windshield, and go forward. The side?
FELICE: It looks like the explosion was from the gas tank.
LAJDZIAK: What about the other driver of the car that hit you?
DEHAAN: The other...it was a couple who are like my parents age, because my mom went to high school
with them. They were completely fine. Except for the next day she had stomach pain. So she went to the
hospital and they actually found cancer. So it was actually a good thing for them because otherwise she
may not have thought anything was wrong.
LAJDZIAK: Did they visit you at the hospital or anything?
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�DEHAAN: You know what? I’m not sure if they did. I know they talked to my mom and they felt really
bad and she was like it’s not your fault, it’s hers. So...l didn’t get ticketed for it or anything.
PETRAUSKAS: have you met these people and have communicated with them since the accident?
DEHAAN: No, Nope. I know of who they are because I graduate with their daughter. But I didn’t talk to
them after or anything.
LAJDZIAK: I would be like asking them, what did I look like?
DEHAAN: No. I guess after the car accident, my face was just a mess.
LAJDZIAK: Really?
DEHAAN: Yeah. It was all bruised. This side of my face was all bruised. And I have a scare here from
something. Maybe glass. I don’t know. This is my only other scare on my elbow. So it was almost like I
flew out of my car, because I flew 40 feet.
LAJDZIAK: And then on to the cement?
DEHAAN: Yeah. But it was like I cover my face like this or something. I don’t know. Another weird thing
about my car accident was my purse was in the front seat and my back pack was in the back seat, and
the both ended up in the hospital room. Nobody knows how they got there. Nobody knows how they
got out of the car. Yeah, that was kind of weird.
LAJDZIAK: what about any eye witnesses or anything like that? Kind of embellish on what they saw.
DEHAAN: I don’t remember eye witnesses of the car accident. I remember like my...l don’t know what
he’s called at the high school...just superintendent maybe or something. He came out and he actually
grabbed me off the road and pulled me into the grass. but...I know I told my mom this yesterday, you
should have took a picture of my face. She’s like, Kadi I couldn’t even think. I was like, well I wanted to
see what it looked like.
LAJDZIAK: He kind of mentioned it, the news really blew up over this situation
DEHAAN: Yeah
LAJDZIAK: How did that affect you?
DEHAAN: I dint know for a long time that I had died. My parents didn’t tell me. My sister didn’t tell me.
One of my friends was like hey, I thought you died. I was like what? My sister was like shhh. So she
didn’t want me to know. But...l think the news over reacts about a lot of things, and messes a lot of
things up. So I don’t listen to them a lot.
LAJDZIAK: Did they like interview you or anything like that?
DEHAAN: After words...news 8 was the one the messed up and said I died. So when I started walking, I
remember, the paper, the Grand Rapids press did articles about me. The news did one because for my
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�21 5t birthday I walked into the bar. That was with help obviously. But...yeah that was big. So was on the
news then. It actually made national news.
LAJDZIAK: really?
DEHAAN: yeah. Mhmm.
LAJDZIAK: they really didn’t, I guess, approach your family or anything like that?
DEHAAN: No. like they usually do? No.
FELICE: Do you feel like your life has less privacy after the accident because of this?
DEHAAN: yeah. Yeah. Especially seeing doctors. My modesty, I don’t have any anymore.
LAJDZIAK: So when you see doctors?
DEHAAN: Yeah, I did at first. I don’t now. But so that is nice after I could stop seeing doctors. It was like
every week, I had to go to the doctor. It was so old. I just wanted to live my life and be normal.
LAJDZIAK: how? l can’t think what I was going to say now.
PETRAUSKAS: How about...l don’t know if we talked about this yet. your education. You dealt with the
accident and you got yourself through high school. Where did you decide to go to college? What did you
decide to go into?
DEHAAN: I think before the accident I wanted to go to western with all my friends or something. Then
after the accident I was like well I need to stay somewhere close to home because I can’t go far away. I
can’t move out. So then I decided davenport. I got a full ride scholarship there, all because I wrote a
letter. So that was exciting. where was I going with this? What did you ask?
PETRAUSKAS: What did you decide to go into when you got to davenport?
DEHAAN: Oh ok. I wanted to go into accounting. Then I took accounting 1 and it was a little harder than I
thought, but I was still going to go into it. So then I tried to take accounting 2. I took it four times to pass.
So I was like, after the second time of not passing, I was like I’m switching my major ASAP. So I went into
sports marketing. Got a degree in that.
LAJDZIAK: And then, you are now with a realtor. Did you try to look at any jobs when you graduated?
DEHAAN: When I graduated I wasn’t really in to looking for a job then, because I was focused on my
physical therapy. last fall I was like, ok, I have had my degree for a year; I need to do something with it
or I’m never going to get anywhere. So I got an internship with a property management company. That
lasted 3 months. I was doing their marketing for them. I made there brochure, I made flyers, all that sort
of thing. Then he like said, “Hey, yeah, you’re probably going to get a job here.” So I was excited. He said
probably just in a few months is when we will financially be able to give you a job. Well he just hired 4
more interns. So he did it that way, the free way. And I was actually on craigslist one day, just searching.
I never still looked hard for a job because I needed who would be flexible with my schedule, to be able
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�to do physical therapy still. So one day I was just looking on craigslist and found this part time job, make
good money, doing marketing for a real estate company. So it was kind of similar to what I did for my
internship, but still different. So I interviewed, and he gave me the job on the spot. And they too had to
make modifications for me. Actually when I got the interview, I drove by the place and there was two big
steps to get in. So I was bummed. Because now I’m not going to be able to get in, and I really wanted
this job. So that is something too. If I get an interview, I have to be careful, like I have check out the
place pretty much before I go. To see if someone needs to come with me or if I’m going to be able to go
by myself. So I just called him and was like hey here is my story. I’m in a wheel chair, do you have a back
door or anything? Can we meet somewhere different from the office? He’s like yeah, no problem. And
most people would probably hang up or just say oh well I found someone else. Or forget it. Yeah.
LAJDZIAK: SO you feel like, do people at your internship and your job now do you feel they treat you...
DEHAAN: Oh they treat me totally fine. It just depends on the person.
LAJDZIAK: Oh really.
DEHAAN: Yeah, here is another story. I am looking for a new trainer to come to my house to work out.
And I put an ad on craigslist. They will write me for it. I will write them my background and tell them my
story, and hey, this is what I’m looking to do. And they won’t write back. So...
PETRAUSKAS: How about like once you’re graduated and you were actually looking for a marketing job,
did you get interview for multiple companies or anything like that? Have you ever been judged
differently in an interview or anything along those lines?
DEHAAN: Actually the two interviews I had, work out great. So I guess when I got judged was before an
interview when they would email me back and I would tell them my situation. So I learned to just not
tell people my situation before I go into an interview. And then it was totally fine.
LAJDZIAK: Why do you think they would, where not replying?
DEHAAN: People just don’t know how to approach somebody who’s different then you I’d guess I’d say.
FELICE: When you’re out in public do you think people have prejudice against you? Judging you before
they even get to know you.
DEHAAN: Yes. Oh I totally...yeah. I totally get that a lot. A lot of people just don’t get to know me
because they see the wheelchair. People don’t know how to act, and most of the time it comes off as
rudeness to me.
FELICE: What do you think they are thinking about you?
DEHAAN: Well I just think that they, maybe, I don’t know what they think about me. I just...
LAJDZIAK: Do you think majority of people like you said you have heard comments and people star,
other than the staring and stuff like that, do you think the majority of people are just not use to the
situation?
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�DEHAAN: Yeah, I think so. I just think they are not use to it. And some people are, I don’t know, they like
the way their friends look. They like convenience. Friends who aren’t in a wheelchair can get up and go
wherever, whenever they want. I mean I can too but it takes me a little longer. And I have to think of
things before I do them so...
LAJDZIAK: In your job now, they don’t...medical expenses...I guess that doesn’t have anything to do with
a job.
DEHAAN: No.
PETRAUSKAS: Or any type of benefits or anything along those lines?
DEHAAN: Like what do you mean?
PETRAUSKAS: Does your job offer any type of benefits?
DEHAAN: No, because it is part time. So then I’m still covered under my...l will always be under my auto
insurance and they will always have to pay until I am completely better. Yeah.
LAJDZIAK: I have to have insurance.
DEHAAN: it’s sad because if someone dives into a pooi, they don’t have auto insurance and nothing is
paid for.
PETRAUSKAS: So luckily this happened in a vehicle.
DEHAAN: Yeah
PETRAUSKAS: in that case, you were covered.
DEHAAN: Yeah. Even those people in swimming accidents, go get in the car after you were in that
accident because everything will be paid for. Like hospital bills, everything. My bill for intensive care was
300,000 dollars.
LAJDZIAK: What’s your insurance? Do you know what auto insurance you have?
DEHAAN: Grange
PETRAUSKAS: Now that we are getting personal, how has this affected your personal life?
DEHAAN: I guess I don’t let it.
PETRAUSKAS: I know you said you friends and stuff, you kind of went your separate ways after a certain
time periods or when you got to the college level, how has it affected you dealing with people every
day, maybe finding, you talked about cute doctors and stuff, so how has it affected your dating life or
just meeting the other sex basically?
DEHAAN: It really just depends on the person like right after my car accident I met this guy; he saw a
picture of me on my friend’s refrigerator. He was like she is really cute I want to date her, and they knew
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�what just happened to me. They were like, we better tell him before they meet or whatever. So they
told him and he was like I don’t care. We dated for like two years, it was great. some people we will date
for a little bit and be like this is a little difficult, I’m not use to this. Like if they have to carry me
somewhere or something. It just out of there way or something to do it. I just depends on the person.
But dating for me hasn’t been more difficult. I hear people say it is, I try not to let it affect me. Go about
living my life.
PETRAUSKAS: So basically tell us basically where you are at now? I know your days are complex with
working a new job, going through all you rehabilitation and stuff like that. How is your day structured?
How do you find time for hobbies and friends?
DEHAAN: My weeks are pretty much the same. Monday is the same. Tuesday is pretty much the same.
Mondays I get a massage in the morning, have therapy in the afternoon. Tuesday I will be working all
day. Wednesday I go to therapy, then from therapy to work until 5. Thursday is the same as that. Finally
I will have my Fridays off again so...
PETRAUSKAS: And with therapy, how much do you go to therapy per week or per month?
DEHAAN: Yeah, I go to therapy, right now I’m going 3 days a week for 3 hours a day. It also takes a half
hour to get there and back. So if I go in the afternoon it takes up my whole day pretty much. And when I
am at home, I spend my nights relaxing, hanging out withfriends, or doing those type of things. In my
free time and on my weekends I spend a lot of my free time doing therapy. I have a standing chair I’m
constantly in because I don’t like sitting in this chair all the time, so I will stand at the counter there and
sit on my lap top or watch tv or whatever. I have a bike downstairs that I ride every now and then. A lot
of my time is doing therapy and relaxing and hanging out with my friends.
FELICE: What are you looking to do with your future?
DEHAAN: That’s a dumb question, I don’t know. My future...l’d like to travel all over, get married
someday, and have kids.
LAJDZIAK: So you enjoy going to Russia and like...
DEHAAN: Yeah, I enjoy going there sometimes.
LAJDZIAK: Did you feel that Russia was way different then here?
DEHAAN: The first trip there I screamed bloody murder to come home. I was not going to stay there. No
way. No way. Nobody spoke English, I was sick because they gave me a spinal tap, I couldn’t get out of
bed for four days, I was so sick. I just wanted to come home. It was just crazy.
LAJDZIAK: Was the food different there?
DEHAAN: It was disgusting. And they yell at you if you don’t eat it so we would flushed it down the
toilet.
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�LAJDZIAK: I had class with him. We were talking about different free states and stuff. They were saying
that Russia like not free also. Did you notice that among the people?
DEHAAN: People are like strait faced, they do not smile. You could tell we were American because we
smiled. They don’t like Americans. There was a McDonalds there, if was so nice for us because we would
go there like every other day, because that was good to us and there food was so gross. We would pack
a full suitcase full of food to eat because we didn’t eat any of theirs.
LAJDZIAK: How about the people at the...
DEHAAN: The clinic where we were so nice. Like you have to get to know them. After a couple times of
me going there, the nurse would run up to me and give me a kiss on the cheek. They were excited to see
you again. They really are caring people.
LAJDZIAK: Does people from all over go there too?
DEHAAN: Yeah. A lot of Greeks go there because their government pays for them to go there actually.
PETRAUSKAS: So I know you were talking about what you enjoy eating. How has your diet changed and
what kind of stuff do you have to do to regulate your diet?
DEHAAN: If I were to gain a lot of weight, this would be a lot harder. Transferring and stuff, I probably
wouldn’t be able to do it. lucky enough I can eat almost anything I want and not gain weight. Now, I
don’t eat fast food or anything, I try to stay healthy.
PETRAUSKAS: What kind of health foods do you eat?
DEHAAN: Chicken.
PETRAUSKAS: Would chicken be your favorite?
DEHAAN: Probably one of my favorites yeah. I eat chicken every day, Pasta. Good protein foods.
FELICE: Do you cook?
DEHAAN: No. I microwave cook, that’s about it.
PETRAUSKAS: So you’re an awesome cook then?
DEHAAN: Yes. My mom is an awesome cook. Luckily I still live at home.
LAJDZIAK: I miss home I’ll tell you that. Home cooked meals are nice.
PETRAUSKAS: So I guess to try to wrap this up, maybe words of kind of wisdom or just basically kind of
wrap it up give a sentence, a little blurb, what things you would like maybe changed to make things
easier in your life, like stuff that is more handicap accessible or advice for someone in your situations to
help better themselves and to take them to the next level to keep them...
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�LAJDZIAK: Well inform people how you would like to be treated or how to approach you and things like
that. DEHAAN: ok. That’s a lot, I’ll try to remember everything you said. thing that I would like changed is
when going places, if they had a button to push and the door would open. Me and doors are not friends.
I cannot open them half the time. So that is not fun. That’s my biggest thing. I’m always nervous to go
places by myself like a restaurant or something. If I meeting someone, I will usually wait for them to get
the door for me because I can’t get doors. So that would be wonderful if places had a button to push to
make the door open everywhere. The way I want to be treated is just like everyone else. Don’t look at
the wheelchair, like obviously you’re going to see the wheel chair, try to go past it. Get to know me for
me, because I am still a normal person. I like to have fun and I’m outgoing. Yeah. My advice would be,
try to stay positive. That is what has got me through everything. I never went through depression like
most people do with a tragic injury or something. And what remind me to keep going every day is just
somebody has it worse than me. I got to therapy with people who can’t move their arms and can only
move their neck. One guy can’t even talk because his injury is so bad. People have it worse then you. For
sure.
PETRAUSKAS: Airight. We would like to thank you for giving us the chance to interview you.
DEHAAN: You’re welcome.
PETRAUSKAS: it was a pleasure for sure.
LAJDZIAK: It was really nice meeting you.
DEHAAN: Yeah, thanks.
LAJDZIAK: I’m interested in that car.
DEHAAN: We can go look at it if you want.
END OF INTERVIEW
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�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a50ff8394af844c4ef4d83ff361c096.mp3
89ec3be9c33451f0047aa8260bc12152
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Personal narratives
Oral histories
African Americans--Personal narratives
Gays--Personal narratives
Lesbians--Personal narratives
Bisexual people--Personal narratives
Transgender people--Personal narratives
Veterans--Personal narratives
Women--Personal narratives
People with disabilities--Personal narratives
Muslims--United States--Personal narratives
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Homophobia
Discrimination
Islamophobia
Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012.
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Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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2017-05-02
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
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Text
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GV248-01
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1930-2011
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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GV248-01_DeHaan_Kadi
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Kadi DeHaan audio interview and transcript
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DeHaan, Kadi
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Petrauskas, Kelly
Lajdziak, Andrew
Helms, Fred
Felice, Zachary
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Kadi DeHaan was in a car accident when she was in high school. She lost feelings and use of her legs. She has been in rehabilitationand is learning muscle memory. She is in great progress toward her goal of walking again. She discusses her accident and how it has changed her life.
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Civil rights--Michigan--History
Women--Personal narratives
People with disabilities--Personal narratives
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project
Date
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2012-03-14
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9c18d86d2bd5891275f9c75faaebd1a4.pdf
2acecd5c33f2042ab84eff056e33f61f
PDF Text
Text
Speaking Out
Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Interviewee: Susan Peeler
Interviewers: Lauren Peeler
Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 11/27/2011
Biography and Description
Susan Peeler discusses her experiences growing up and how they have affected the way she
prejudges people.
Transcript
LAUREN: My name is Lauren Peeler and I am here today Sunday November 27, 2011 at 11am with Mrs.
Susan Peeler inside her home in Canton, Ml. We are here to discuss her upbringings in Chicago Illinois.
So you grew up in Chicago?
SUSAN: Yes I grew up in the Northern suburbs of Chicago.
LAUREN: What was your family like?
SUSAN: Well I had 3 brothers one sister for me and my older brothers it was a little bit harder growing
up because I don’t know, my mom was real hard on us and when my younger sister and brother came
along it was a piece of cake it was like she loved them and didn’t love us ya know.
LAUREN: Why did you feel that?
SUSAN: Because my mom always told me I was fat, I was ugly I got to put make up on to hide my skin, I
had to do this I had to do that why don’t I smile I mean she was always putting me down.
LAUREN: Your dad the same way?
SUSAN: No, dad was a lot more loving but my mother would never do the stuff she was always doing
when my dad was home or if he was in ear shot she wouldn’t have bothered. She just did it behind his
back type thing.
LAUREN: Did your siblings see this?
SUSAN: Yeah no what I never thought anybody saw anything going on until a cuple of years ago when
my second oldest brother told me he always saw what was going on but felt helpless and didn’t do
anything about it and he felt bad about that.
Page 1
�LAUREN: Did you go to school all throughout?
SUSAN: Oh God I went to so many catholic colleges because those are the ones my mother picked out
she lets see I went to harper junior college which is kind of like schoolcraft. And then I went to I think
that’s when I went away to debuuuke iowa the college there in debuuuke and then Iwent to malakar
college in lamet which is another catholic college then I finally graduated from mundalein which was
another catholic college and basically those are schools that my mother picked and just to avoid any ya
know aggravation and stuff I went along with it, ya know just to keep peace.
LAUREN: Are you still pretty Catholic?
SUSAN: Yeah I still believe in god and everything but I don’t go to church like I know I probably should.
But I don’t think God ya know is going to be mad at you for not going to church.
LAUREN: Do you think you being so Catholic growing up made you not go now?
SUSAN: No I think its just that I always went when I was growing up even oh I don’t know I was just in
the habit of going every Sunday and when I got married I kind of started doing it and it was just like I got
lazy and just didn’t feel like getting dressed and going to church.
LAUREN: So about violence against women physically and sexually?
SUSAN: Oh yeah.
LAUREN: How is this?
SUSAN: When I was a senior in high school I was 18 years old I was working as a life guard at a swimming
pool during the summer and in order to teach swimming lessons my mother you had to take this wsi
class which was water safety instruction and it was something my mother was basically telling me I had
to do. So im like fine Ill go and do it. And when it came time for the test I kind of panicked and I freaked
out and I left. And so when I left it was this was actually at Northwestern in Evanston, Illinois and some
guy stopped me on the sidewalk and put a knife to my neck so yeah I know.
LAUREN: What else happened, anything else?
SUSAN: He put me in his car and drove for a while and I kept thinking all I kept thinking was that I was
going to end up in lake Michigan dead and ended up in an alley and he made me get in the back seat
where he raped me. And then it was finally all over again all over so he drove me back to my car and I
got into my car and im just kind of starting to freak out. Then he got back in my car and wanted to do it
again so he did it to me twice. And I didn’t know well, obviously I knew I was a virgin but I didn’t know ya
know. After I got home I was speeding down the street, my mother was standing there getting ready to
yell and scream at me for speeding down the street and I told her what happened and I mean I knew I
was a virgin but I didn’t know because I started bleeding and I didn’t know that when you’re a virgin and
it happens the first time that’s what it was and I was freaking out about that and my mom went and
blew it off.
LAUREN: She blew it off?
Page 2
�SUSAN: Yeah she was just like I said I don’t know what this is I said what’s going on and she didn’t
answer me she didn’t say anything.
LAUREN: How did that make you feel?
SUSAN: Crap. Oh yeah big time.
LAUREN: What happened afterward?
SUSAN: Well mom and dad took me to the emergency room and my mom stayed in there with me while
my dad was in the waiting room and I really wanted somebody to like hold me because I was so
frightened and so scared and all my mother could talk about was how my bad my dad felt because he
was pacing back and forth in the waiting room. And she basically blamed the whole thing on me, said it
was my fault.
LAUREN: Did he ever get caught?
SUSAN: Oh yeah he got caught because while I was in the car I don’t know where I had heard it but I
kept trying to pay attention to details in the car and everything else and he had a box of Kleenex and a
statue of like the Blessed Virgin Mary or something in the front and the seats were covered with plastic
and I knew I don’t know I just kept remembering all these little details and stuff. And, the only way he let
me go was I told him I would meet him next week, cuz I had to go next week and then that’s why he let
me go. And, the next day we went to the police department what I think actually the police came to our
house because when I had gone to the emergency room in order for me not to get pregnant they gave
me these pills which made me sick to my stomach so I couldn’t leave the house so the sketch artist and
police came to our house and I told them everything that I could remember and they I had a sketch
artist do a picture of him and I think, you want me to just keep...? Then I think it was, ohl The police then
wanted to use me as a decoy ya know and he said that police would be scattered out all over the place.
And I was really scared to do that and when the time came the police called and I kind of started
freaking out and I gave the phone to my mother and what had happened was that they thought they
caught the guy and they wanted me to come in for a police line up. So we had one of my dad’s cousin’s
husband’s was a policeman and he met us at the Evanston police station and I told him I said what if I
can’t ya know point him out and he said just kind of take your time and blah blah blah well I saw him the
minute I walked in. ya know and they wanted to know if I wanted him to say something and I said have
him say, “I want to see you again.” And that was it. The guy’s ass was nailed. Then after all that we went
to court and it ted out there was about 5 or 6 other women there that he had done this to. One women
was in the hospital for about two weeks because she was stabbed quite a few times. And he had this, his
girlfriend was there and ya know she gives him a kiss and it was like all five of us are sitting there ready
to throw-up just went blehh ya know. But they found him guilty and sentenced him to 25 years in prison
in Joliet.
LAUREN: Oh wow.
SUSAN: And it was basically because all of the details that I was remembering.
LAUREN: So you were the main reason he got caught?
Page 3
�SUSAN: I think so. Because I had make of the car, the color of the car, plastic on the car, stuff that was in
the window I mean I was memorizing all that and I think that had a lot to do with it. And it ted out that it
was his girlfriend’s car too.
LAUREN: His girlfriend was...
SUSAN: ...She was there supporting him.
LAUREN: Did she know what he was doing? She was okay with it?
SUSAN: what I don’t know, I just think it was a thing of a woman standing behind her man. But I mean
when there is five or six people there come on give me a break ya know?
LAUREN: Did it make you feel better that you helped all these other women?
SUSAN: It did. It made me feel a lot better knowing he was off the streets and couldn’t find me. Because
I was always paranoid that he was going to find out where I was and kill me.
LAUREN: Did he ever get out?
SUSAN: He finally got out they kept sending, we had moved from this was in Glenview we had moved
my parents moved to northbrook of course I got married and moved here and the people who lived in
the house started getting these letters that were addressed to me from the circuit court or whatever
court it was so they looked up all the kolbas in the phonebook and got a hold of my step grandmother
who called me and said is it okay? And I said yeah most definitely. So they forwarded the mail to me and
it was letters that he was coming up for parole and do I want him out. And im like, hell no, ya know. And
so he that went about 4 or five years and then finally I didn’t get a phone call or anything I actually I
didn’t get anything in the mail no phone calls, no nothing and I found out that he got released. And he
was, so I called the prison, the courts or whoever it was and I said, “why wasn’t I told?” “Oh I don’t blah
blah” they were kind of giving you the run around story. And I said where did he get parolled to and she
said to Louisiana but we cant give you his address. I said what the hell do I want his address for? I mean
for the longest time in maybe sometimes still I think about that he will find out what my new name is
even though ive had it for almost 30 years, that he is going to find me and kill me or something.
LAUREN: So you are still scared?
SUSAN: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I was kind of ya know im always looking behind my back, I don’t like people
walking behind me. Because it freaks me out.
LAUREN: Is it because you think it’s him, or are you afraid of everyone?
SUSAN: No I just im just afraid somebody’s going to come up behind me again and do what happened.
do to me what happened before. And I don’t really I like to trust people but don’t really trust people
very well anymore. im suspicious, I wont go out in the dark I really start panicking if I ya know especially
with my oldest daughter who was forcing me to walk in the streets of Chicago after dark and it was
upsetting me so much that I was crying but ya know what are you doing to do?
Page 4
�LAUREN: She’s not very helpful with that?
SUSAN: No. ya know basically I think she was I know she feels bad that it happened but she was kind of
like on the wavelength that of my mom and dad and was like ya know get over it.
LAUREN: How has your husband helped at all?
SUSAN: I don’t know if he has really helped, he’s there if I need a shoulder to cry on or something like
that but ive never had anybody that I never had anybody put their arm around me and tell me
everything is going to be okay. Since it happened, not nobody.
LAUREN: How did he deal with it when he found out?
SUSAN: Well I actually was going with a guy when I was in high school and I told him what happened and
then he dumped me. Yeah. he dumped me, didn’t want to go out with me anymore and I had told my
now husband about it and he was very sympathetic which was very ya know, which was good. But you
always want that arm around your shoulder saying things will be okay.
LAUREN: Do you feel like men mostly you cannot trust? Are you afraid of them at all?
SUSAN: I have to tell you I do look at people and I just by looking at them I feel like I can judge whether I
can trust them or not. I unfortunately don’t trust black men very well because it was a black guy that
raped me and I ya know I know I shouldn’t be feeling that way but, black guys scare the crap out of me.
just because of what happened, and I know I shouldn’t be like that anymore but yeah there is at the
same rate there are some white guys that scare the crap out of me that I will ya know if I see somebody
ill go out of my way with walking across the Street or ya know going in a totally different direction or
something like that so.
LAUREN: Did you ever see a counselor or psychologist about this?
SUSAN: Nope. Never did.
LAUREN: Never thought about it?
SUSAN: I always thought about it but my mother always told me I didn’t need it. there was once I think
when I started getting the letters that he was coming up for parole I was good friends with one of my
friends here in the neighborhood and she suggested this First Step. And I went there once and never
went back.
LAUREN: Why?
SUSAN: I don’t know.
LAUREN: You just didn’t like it?
SUSAN: I don’t know I just I don’t know why I never went back. I thought it was something I could handle
myself which is probably stupid ya know because I don’t think anybody can handle something like that
on their own but.
Page 5
�LAUREN: Did anyone else help you handle it?
SUSAN: No.
LAUREN: So you just did it all by yourself?
SUSAN: I had to do it all by myself because I didn’t get any support from my mother at all.
LAUREN: You said you moved to Michigan after?
SUSAN: Yeah we moved to Michigan that made me feel safe. Knowing that I was out of state and far
away but ya know every once in while ill be walking down the street or driving by in the car and ill see
somebody that kind of looks like him and it kind of freaks me out a little bit but I try not to think about
it.
LAUREN: You still remember what he looks like?
SUSAN: Not to the extent that I did before. all I know is that he was a short little guy and it was all I can
remember now.
LAUREN: Has this made you change anything you do in your life?
SUSAN: I don’t like going out in the dark. ive gotten to the point that now I have pepper spray so that if I
go anywhere in the dark and stuff like that. Like when I go to Chicago now or when I went to New York
over the summer I brought it with me and it made me feel safe. Because I knew I cold spray it at
anybody at anytime but yeah I don’t, and I get really nervous when im somewhere alone and not a
whole lot of people are around I get really nervous about that but..
LAUREN: Have any other events in your life affected what happened to you positively or negatively,
made you rethink about it?
SUSAN: Well when I was. This is going to be hard, all I wanted was I guess someone to love me. And I
think that’s why I guess that’s why I did what I did when I was growing up I had too many guys I guess.
There was about four different guys that I guess slept with as they say. Because all I wanted was
someone to love me and I didn’t think anybody did.
LAUREN: Do you feel loved now?
SUSAN: Yeah. From you especially, from dad for the most part but yeah sorta kinda.
LAUREN: So afterwards you kind of looked to men for love by having sex with them?
SUSAN: Yeah.
LAUREN: How does that make you feel, do you regret it at all?
SUSAN: Oh god yeah. Because right now I feel like I was like a tramp as they say.
LAUREN: I don’t think so.
Page 6
�SUSAN: Its not the kind of person, I mean I would never even think of doing that now but I think it was
just I was too eager for someone to really like me or love me or something. I was desperate because I
wasn’t getting it at home.
LAUREN: I think a lot of girls are in your position and what would you want to tell somebody that is going
through that?
SUSAN: first of all to not put themselves down. Realize that it wasn’t their fault and definitely get help
from somewhere, don’t think ya know its going to go away or think that you can ignore it and things will
be hunky dory. you need help.
LAUREN: Do you ever think about getting help now?
SUSAN: Yeah once in a while I do. cuz this happened in 1973 almost forty years ago. and if I try not to
think about it im pretty much okay but yeah there’s times when im thinking maybe ill go back even
though it’s been almost forty years. And I don’t know I haven’t really decided.
LAUREN: Yeah, you have to do it at your own pace.
SUSAN: At forty years hahaha that’s a slow pace.
LAUREN: So what has helped you deal with it? Has anything helped you deal with it?
SUSAN: Nothing really just trying not to think about it. has helped. But I think it was one of those things
that even talking about it right now it’s hard but maybe getting it all out in the open and talking about it
or even writing it down is a big help, it helps a lot.
LAUREN: So do you keep a joal or anything?
SUSAN: No that’s something that im asking my kids for Christmas this year is joals because I started
writing in a notebook at school when I find myself getting really tense about something I just a lot of it
will be bIah blah blah blah, but it makes me feel a lot better.
LAUREN: Do you ever re-read it later?
SUSAN: Yeah
LAUREN: It makes you feel better?
SUSAN: Yeah, a lot better.
LAUREN: Do you have any heroes that you look up to? Maybe somebody on tv that maybe you wish
could have been around?
SUSAN: Well actually believe it or not, my daughter got me hooked on watching Law and Order: SVU and
I made the comment that I would love an Olivia on my side haha because she is so her character is so
kind and so compassionate and I would have given my I teeth for somebody like her when I was
attacked. I even am almost half thinking of writing her a letter hahah ya know. As a character but yeah I
kind of what even though she is a tv character I kind of look up to her.
Page 7
�LAUREN: She does in her regular life she has groups for women.
SUSAN: Oh does she really?
LLAUREN: Mmhm she is very involved in it and..,
SUSAN: Maybe it might be worth while writing a letter she may never get it but
LAUREN: I think she would
SUSAN: Its worth a try.
LAUREN: How did your perception of what happened to you change as you got older, if it changed at all?
SUSAN: Oh boy, I don’t know if it has really changed anything because my mother my whole life always
made me feel worthless and having that happen to me and she blamed me for it doesn’t make me feel
better it still makes me feel worthless, so that’s why a lot of times I don’t think about it.
LAUREN: You think not thinking about is unhealthy or not?
SUSAN: It what it probably could be unhealthy because you keep all those feelings pent up inside and I
think in order for somebody to get over something like that you need to let it out, speak to somebody,
ya know even if you go ya know to like the First Step once or twice ya know just so you can hang out
with other people that went through what you went through.
LAUREN: Your let-out is writing though?
SUSAN: Yeah, I mean it may not make a lot of sense but you get there and kind of ramble on and stuff
and I don’t know it just makes you feel a lot better.
LAUREN: So you have two children?
SUSAN: Mmhm
LAUREN: How did this affect the way you treated them as they grew up?
SUSAN: as they started getting older I always wanted them to call when they got to where they were
going basically just keep an eye out ya know just kind of keep looking all around, don’t go anywhere by
yourself because I don’t, I just worried about the same thing happening to them. I don’t, I didn’t want
them to ya know be caught somewhere alone they needed a ride, call. just, and I know I was kind of I
don’t know not overbearing but probably too much when I kept saying well call me when you there, call
me when you get here let me know where you’re at and stuff like that. And that was because I just was
so paranoid about something happening to them.
LAUREN: Were they receptive of that at all?
SUSAN: Well I don’t think they know why I was acting like that. because I had never really talked about
this before and I don’t even remember when I told them what had happened but crap I just forgot what
Page 8
�I was saying. Oh they probably just thought I was I don’t know being like a nosey mom and stuff like that
how parents can be and stuff and actually it was just my, me being paranoid. I think.
LAUREN: You wouldn’t say that your eagerness to know where they are was a good thing at all?
SUSAN: I do but I don’t think at the time they might not thought it was a its like its none of your business
where im going or what im doing and stuff like that which is I understand they are entitled to there own
life and to do what they want to do but I just always wanted to know where they were and what they
were doing because I just kind of wanted to keep a track and if like when my youngest daughter, you,
would go into Detroit, it would it scared the crap out of me. I was I was petrified. And that’s why I kept
having you call me or I kept calling you and stuff and that’s why.
LAUREN: I think that’s why I stopped telling you where I would go because I didn’t want you to worry.
SUSAN: Yeah.
LAUREN: They are both out of the house now, do you still worry about them?
SUSAN: Oh yeah. My oldest daughter lives in Chicago I worry about her a lot but one thing she’s got
going for her she did take like kung fu or something when she was in college I don’t know that jiu jit su
stuff and she’s got a a scream that would be in the scariest horror movie. And my youngest one I
probably worry about a little bit more but I think she is kind of cautious and aware of her surroundings
and I don’t think she would put herself in a dangerous situation.
LAUREN: Have you ever been treated violently by another man?
SUSAN: Nope.
LAUREN: Not at all?
SUSAN: Well my dad hit me once because I back mouthed my mother or something like that but..
LAUREN: Have you faced any other discrimination with what happened to you?
SUSAN: Its, oh against me?
LAUREN: Or maybe other people that you have seen?
SUSAN: what lye only talked told a couple people like when I told said that I was in high school and I told
my boyfriend at the time what had happened and he dumped me and I once in a while I tell somebody I
mean its not like common knowledge or anything but I notice how people kind of back away.
LAUREN: Because they are uncomfortable? SUSAN: Yeah I think that’s exactly what it is.
LAUREN: So you think the general public doesn’t know how to address this problem?
SUSAN: I don’t think they know how cuz it didn’t happen to them I don’t think they know I think what to
say. And how to say it. I don’t know I just I think that they they just need to be sympathetic I mean .
Page 9
�LAUREN: That’s what you wish people would know?
SUSAN: Oh yeah. Yeah.
LAUREN: Not treat you like you have a disease or something
SUSAN: Oh yeah.
LAUREN: Do anyone else that this happened to?
SUSAN: (shakes head)
LAUREN: Must be hard because you don’t have anyone to sympathize with you.
SUSAN: Yeah I have known of nobody that it’s ever happened to.
LAUREN: There are more people though, don’t think that you are alone.
SUSAN: Oh yeah I know there’s a ton, but I don’t know anybody personally You can go ahead and ask
that question.
LAUREN: Which one?
SUSAN: The one about my sex life, hahaha.
LAUREN: How has it affected your sexual life?
SUSAN: I, you’re going to think this is really weird because im your mother. I don’t really enjoy it like I
should.
LAUREN: Yeah.
SUSAN: because of course my first time ya know I was raped and it’s hard I mean its really really hard for
me but l’ve...l do what I can to make my husband happy, I try hard. And I think he knows that too.
Sometimes it’s very very difficult for me but for the ya know I do what lcan. Funny thing to be talking to
your daughter about haha
LAUREN: Oh its fine. Sometimes do you think of it?
SUSAN: not during anymore. I mean I used to a long time ago but not anymore.
LAUREN: Do you think the first time you did it after it happened, was it really hard for you?
SUSAN: Yeah.
LAUREN: Was the guy sympathetic at all?
SUSAN: Oh I didn’t tell him.
LAUREN: Do you think these people you were with kind of sensed that there was something?
Page
10
�SUSAN: What they might have but I didn’t I didn’t come out and tell anybody. Because I thought that for
sure if I told somebody they would run in the other direction.
LAUREN: Because of that one guy did?
SUSAN: Yeah. And it did take me a while to tell my now husband what happened because I loved him a
lot and I was afraid he was going to leave me too.
LAUREN: Did you tell him after you were married?
SUSAN: No I told him before.
LAUREN: How long after you were dating?
SUSAN: what I think it was actually a couple of months maybe
LAUREN: Did you tell him before you two became intimate?
SUSAN: No.
LAUREN: It was afterward?
SUSAN: Yeah.
LAUREN: So the police, they used you as a decoy to catch him? SUSAN: Yeah they wanted to use me as a
decoy the following week because I told the guy I was going to come back a in a week and that’s why he
let me go, because I promised to meet him. and I told the police that and they wanted to use me as a
decoy and im like, “no” and they said well we would have policeman all around everywhere and I Was
kind of scared about doing that but when they called me to be a decoy they said that they had captured
him.
LAUREN: So you didn’t have to be a decoy?
SUSAN:No I didn’t have to be a decoy after all. So I was like really relieved.
LAUREN: Do you think you would change what the police did?
SUSAN: No, because actually the police were pretty good about it but they I Think were a lot more I
don’t know I had first picked out the picture that wasn’t the guy. Ya know because I was starting to get
flustered and he goes, “are you sure this is him?” and I said, “I don’t know I think so” and he said, “well
this guy is six feet tall” so I guess that’s not him but no I wouldn’t change anything except I would have
gotten some help a lot earlier. Because maybe I wouldn’t have done half of what I did. Well then I think
that’s it’s a dumb excuse but I think that could have been why I started drinking a lot to.
LAUREN: You started drinking?
SUSAN: Yeah, a lot.
LAUREN: When, after it happened?
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�SUSAN: Yeah. Well not really so much after it happened it was I think it was about the time that I got the
letter saying that he was being released. I started drinking allot and because it made the pain feel
better. But it was really kind of stupid because I was trying to feel better about it but what I was actually
doing was putting myself deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper into a hole that didn’t think I was
going to be able to get out of.
LAUREN: How did you get out of it?
SUSAN: What I know my family really wanted me to quit really bad and I knew I would once I was ready
but it was just one day like with smoking, one day I woke up and irn just like, “okay im done.” And I
honestly didn’t think I would be able to because I was oh crap drinking at least a twelve pack a day.
LAUREN: How did your family deal with that?
SUSAN: They they weren’t very happy with me ya know and I knew it was upsetting them and it was I
was getting scared because I didn’t know because I have a very addictive personality when I start doing
something ljust keep doing it and I have a hard time stopping but I basically I wanted my family to be
proud of me not ashamed of me and I think that was one big reason why I quit and on top of all that I
lost 60 pounds too hahaha so that helps. but yeah it was a long haul but I think finally at my ripe old age
im kind of coming to terms with stuff. LAUREN: Do you think your where you want to be? What else do
you want to do? SUSAN: actually this is the happiest I’ve ever been in a really long time im trying to
learn not to let things bother me anymore I do get really anxious especially just over thanksgiving
weekend was a whole lot of fun. I mean I did have a good time seeing my brother and his family and
stuff but my oldest daughter is not very not really tolerant of other people. And I was getting really
tense with that. When I’m at home if im starting to feel really sad or im getting tense ill just start doing
something that makes me happy. And my job I love it. I work with special needs kids and they’re terrific
ya know. And I keep thinking boy I’ve got problems ya know and look at them they’re as happy as can be
and I just don’t I think if my mother was alive today I would probably tell her to go fly a kite, or take a
long walk off a short pier. because she always had me tied up in knots but im I life is too short to let
things bug you and eat away at you it’s not worth it and that’s why I feel this asshole I hoping he’s dead
or he drowned in hurricane Katrina because he was done there when hurricane Katrina hit so ive got my
fingers crossed that he got drowned and floated away. But I figured life is too short he took a lot from
me but I refuse for him to have anymore. I just won’t do it anymore.
LAUREN: Do his name?
SUSAN: Yep.
LAUREN: Do you ever think about looking him up and seeing if he died?
SUSAN: No I never thought about that, but that would that might be kind of nice it would make me feel
a lot better knowing he was dead.
LAUREN: How old was he when it happened?
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�SUSAN: Im not really sure because im not really good at guessing ages but I Want to say he might have
been in his 30’s.
LAUREN: So he would be pretty old now.
SUSAN: Yeah so hopefully he’s older and he’s farting dust now or something. I don’t know. But yeah ya
know I don’t wish ill will on anybody but I hope he died in hurricane Katrina, haha.
LAUREN: I think that’s okay. So you started drinking kind of to numb the pain so you wouldn’t think
about it and it drove you in further..
SUSAN: It was driving me farther apart from my family and the way I was doing that I lost count how
many years, quite a few years and it my husband kept telling me its only going to depress you moreand
im like no im doing fine blah blah blah and yeah I did realize it wasn’t doing anything to help me at all
and im just happy I quit.
LAUREN: So you only realized you had a problem after your family said something?
SUSAN: I knew I had a problem but I always thought I can quit whenever I feel like it but with the
addictive personality I had I was so used to coming home from work and start drinking at like 3 o’clock
and it was just a habit I got into. And finally after umpteen years I had to form a different kind of habit
get used to doing something else instead of that every time I came home so know everytime Icome
home I sit down with my diet coke and my popcorn and my needlepoint ha for about an hour.
LAUREN: Did you ever t to any other drugs or?
SUSAN: No I did start smoking. at a few days after this happened because he had offered me a cigarette
and I said no I don’t smoke and then to be cool, calm, and collected I said oh gee can I borrow a
cigarette and I think that’s when I started smoking. and I did that up til I was pregnant with my oldest
child I was a couple months pregnant and I realized smoking was not going to do her any good and I just
woke up one day and didn’t want it anymore.
LAUREN: Do you think your family is grateful for that?
SUSAN: Oh yeah I think so. Very much so.
LAUREBN: Besides being worried about when your kids when out, how did this affect the way you were
a mother and a wife?
SUSAN: There’s so much more I wish I would have done, butl don’t think the rape itself had anything to
do with it. Shoulda coulda woulda. I mean I always wished I don’t know there’s I just wish I would have
been a different kind of morn. giving them more responsibility of doing things around the house and
stuff like that and I never really pushed it because I didn’t want them to get angry with me and stuff so I
just kind of kept it and did it myself.
LAUREN: Why are you afraid of people getting angry with you?
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�SUSAN: Oh just because my mother always yelled at me and stuff and I just I get really tense and upset if
people’s voices start getting raised because it kind of goes back to when my mother and I just cant deal
with the yelling and stuff like that.
LAUREN: It seems like a lot of your problems stem from your mom and how she treated you.
SUSAN: Yeah
LAUREN: Is she still alive?
SUSAN: No she died in may of 2001 from Alzheimer’s. And it sounds weird but she finally became the
mother that I always wanted she was more I was talking oh we, I was down in Florida because my
mother was sick and somebody had rented a video and my husband called me up from down in Florida
and I go its not that big a deal, just ret it. But he doesn’t like things being late. And I said it wasn’t that
big of a deal so I hung up and I was kind of crying and my mother actually came over to me and put her
arm around me and I think that was the first time she ever did that and I don’t ever remember her
telling me that she loved me. So that’s why I make a point every time I see my kids or talk to them on a
phone I always tell them I love em.
LAUREN: They love you too.
SUSAN: Thankyou.
LAUREN: You’re welcome. How did you feel when she passed?
SUSAN: I was sad. But I mean I loved her because she was my mother but as a person I didn’t like her at
all. so in a way it was kind of like a relief. Because even after I got married she kept sending me letters,
like, “why can’t you smile more like your sister, why can’t you do this, why can’t you do that.” And when
you have somebody nit picking at you like that 24/7 its like leave me the heck alone.
LAUREN: Did she compare you with your sister?
SUSAN: All the time.
LAUREN: Did it make you kind of... hate her a little bit? Your sister
SUSAN: My sister? Yeah. Because I know she and my brother were always my mom and dad’s favorite.
LAUREN: How that effected your relationship with your brother?
SUSAN: I’m not very close to them. I’d like to be closer. When I’m around them I feel like I have to watch
what I’m saying. And I’m real careful how I work things.
LAUREN: Are you close with your older brothers?
SUSAN: My 2 older brothers are probably a little bit closer than my younger. I have this bad habit, I don’t
keep in touch with anybody as good as I know I should. because we all live far away from each other, but
I’m trying to make up for that. Let’s see.., one summer we went to go visit my brother in California and
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�then 2 years after that I went to go visit him again, and then last year I went to visit my brother in
Florida, because he lives alone, he divorced, and I just kind of wondered how he was doing.
LAUREN: Did any your siblings ever come for you?
SUSAN: No, not at all.
LAUREN: Do you guys ever talked about it? SUSAN: No... I called my dad one day, and... I think it was
when I first started to get the letters coming off for parole and... my dad said “ I thought you were over
that by now”. And I said dad, how can be over something like that. So, my dad were a lot more caring
and understanding than my mother, I didn’t even get what I needed from him.
LAUREN: What would you tell him, if you could tell him anything right know? Or what do you wish you
said?
SUSAN: What, I wish I would have told my mother, “Why can’t you be a mother to me?”. Because when
we had gone to the police station, and we were walking at the parking lot, I started crying, and my
mother grabbed me and said “What the hell are you crying for?”. I mean, she was never sympathetic
towards me when this happened, because she pointed that it was all my fault, so I knew I wasn’t get
ever anything from her.
LAUREN: Was she supportive during the trial?
SUSAN: No, she never came, it was always my dad. My mum was kind of like pretended it never
happened.
LAUREN: But your dad was more helpful?
SUSAN: Yeah, because he went to the courts with me, so he was pretty good.
LAUREN: Was it hard going to the court, and seeing him again?
SUSAN: Yeah, it was. It was really really hard, but I felt better knowing there was 5 or 6 other women
there, who went through something similar, so I knew therewas other people there, so it maybe felt me
a little bit better.
LAUREN: Did you ever speak with them about it?
SUSAN: Yeah, we were kind of sitting... I don’t remember what it was we talked about, I just remember
we were sitting near each other in the courtroom, and that guy was up in front and his fiancée was
behind him, and they stood up as the court session was over, and they kissed each other, and we all
thought we’re gonna throw up and it’s disgusting.
LAUREN: That was the jury who found him guilty?
SUSAN: No, I think it was just the judge, it wasn’t the jury.
LAUREN: So it was a quick trial?
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�SUSAN: Yeah, pretty quick. We only had to go twice to court.
LAUREN: If this happened to one of your children, how would you treat them differently than your
mother treated you?
SUSAN: Definetely not the way my mother did it. I would hug them and hold them, tell them I love them,
let them know everything is gonna be okay, and I would be there with her every step on the way. I
would never want one of my kids go through what I went through with my mom. I would never allow
that. I’m just glad I didn’t end up like my mother . Because she said she never liked kids.
LAUREN: Really?
SUSAN: Yeah. That was my mother. And I found out from my aunt, my dad’s sister that... she said that, it
was kind of funny... my grandfather said my step grandmother that don’t ever leave me alone with
them... asshole.
LAUREN: So did your dad’s family like your mom at all?
SUSAN: Well, my dad’s mother was still alive.., and no, apparently they didn’t like each other. I think my
gradpa was.., he didn’t really said he disliked her or\ anything like that. He put up her basically, that’s
what he did, because she married his son. But I’ve got to visit my aunt this weekend and hoping to find
out a lot of juicy stuff that was going on. But my aunt Carol did make a comment that... I was talking to
her about this just about a week ago, and she said that she was very upset with her brother, who’s my
dad at the way he was handling that, and the way I was treated, and she was really pissed off.
LAUREN: It makes you feel better?
SUSAN: Yeah. It would be nice if Carol was my mom. That’s the way my mother was.
LAUREN: That’s how she has always been?
SUSAN: Yeah. But I mean, she was 16 years old, she could go ahead whenever she wanted, but I... I’m
hoping my kids don’t drink and smoke... I mean the occasional drinking is not a big deal but.. If I find out
my kids are drinking, just promise me you never ever get behind the wheel. Because guys, you can make
up you own mind and make your own decisions, and all I can do is to give you my input, from
experience.
LAUREN: Do you talked to them about it?
SUSAN: No, because I never... I don’t know why I never have... Because I have a hard time of starting
things that I want to talkedto them about. I don’t know how to bring it up and talk, because I don’t... My
biggest fear is hurting their feelings, because my mother always hurt my feelings in my life, and made
me sad. I was always sad with her 24/7, and I didn’t want to make that mistake to my kids. But then I
didn’t want to make the mistake of not saying something and having something continue. I’m starting to
be hopefully a little more vocal
LAUREN: You weren’t very happy how your mother raised you. Do that you did a better job?
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�SUSAN: I hope I did. Because my mother... I could never say the things to my kids that my mother said to
me. I mean I tried to be more open to them, I waned them to feel that they could come to me for
anything, and I loved it if they came to me for everything, but I realized I can’t do that, because they
have their own little spot that’s their business, nobody else’s... something they talk to their friends
about before they’re talking me about.
LAUREN: So when you became mom, you tried not to do things how your mom did?
SUSAN: Yeah. So, that’s why with my oldest daughter, I wish I would have been a little more strict with
her, because she’s really kind of self centered, and feels that everything has to be circling around her
and she’s got to realize life isn’t like that, and it’s not gonna happen. I mean I wish I was a little more
strict with her and done stuff differently with her. And if I had grandchildren one day, they’re gonna be
the most spoiled little brats because they would come over, visit grandma, and we would bake cookies
and all the stuff that I think a grandma should do, instead of my mother, who basically thought that kids
should be seen and not heard. My mother was not a grandma type mother. And the funny thing is we
were back in Chicago for thanksgiving, we stopped by the cemetery and I didn’t realize till just now
that... it’s a big family thing, my mom’s on one side, my dad’s on the other, and I noticed that I always
stay over on the same side, that my dad is on, I don’t go over to the side that my mother is on. I see her
name, but I don’t go over there, which is really weird, I never really thought about this till just now.
LAUREN: Because you can’t let go the hurt that she gave you?
SUSAN: Yeah.
LAUREN: So anything else, you want to say?
SUSAN: No, I think that pretty much covers it.
END OF INTERVIEW
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�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d43514c01365cbb219358a534cc6f39.mp3
ca7350448e5dd2ecd16592fc539b7a6f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights--Michigan--History
Personal narratives
Oral histories
African Americans--Personal narratives
Gays--Personal narratives
Lesbians--Personal narratives
Bisexual people--Personal narratives
Transgender people--Personal narratives
Veterans--Personal narratives
Women--Personal narratives
People with disabilities--Personal narratives
Muslims--United States--Personal narratives
Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives
Homophobia
Discrimination
Islamophobia
Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012.
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies
Source
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Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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2017-05-02
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Text
Identifier
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GV248-01
Coverage
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1930-2011
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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GV248-01_Peeler_Susan
Title
A name given to the resource
Susan Peeler audio interview and transcript
Creator
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Peeler, Susan
Contributor
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Peeler, Lauren
Description
An account of the resource
Susan Peeler discusses her experiences growing up and how they have affected the way she prejudges people.
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Civil rights--Michigan--History
Women--Personal narratives
Discrimination
Discrimination against African Americans
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Relation
A related resource
Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-11-27