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Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Johnson Center Philanthropy Archives
Johnson Center for Philanthropy
Grand Valley State University
Oral History Interview with Kathryn A. Agard, Ed.D., April 6, 2010
The Council of Michigan Foundations, Johnson Center for Philanthropy at Grand Valley
State University (GVSU), and GVSU Libraries’ Special Collections & University
Archives Present:
An oral history interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010. Conducted by Dr. James
Smither of the History Department at GVSU. Recorded at the Johnson Center for
Philanthropy at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids, Michigan. This
interview is part of a series in the Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
documenting the history of philanthropy in Michigan.
Preferred citation: Researchers wishing to cite this collection should use the following
credit line: Oral history interview with Kathryn A. Agard, April 6, 2010. "Michigan
Philanthropy Oral History Project", Johnson Center Philanthropy Archives of the Special
Collection & University Archives, Grand Valley State University Libraries.
James Smither (JS): Today’s conversation is with Kathy Agard who is Executive
Director of the Dorothy Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at
Grand Valley State University. This oral history interview is being conducted for the
Johnson Center as part of an ongoing series and the interviewer is James Smither of the
History Department at Grand Valley State University.
Alright, Kathy, can you start by giving us just a little bit of background on yourself? To
begin with, where and when were you born?
00:00:25
Kathy Agard (KA): Sure, I was born, do I have to tell the date [laughter], in 1949 in
Muskegon, Michigan. And my parents are there. We have lived there their whole lives.
JS: Alright. And what did your family do for a living?
KA: My dad worked in the shop. He worked at Camel White and Cannon as a tool filer
and fitter. He had been a farm boy and had won a chicken scholarship, judging
scholarship, to Michigan State University but he was from a big family of thirteen and
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1
�after his freshman year they didn’t have money for him to be able to finish school, so he
came back home, went to work, helped the other kids go through school and then stayed
there the rest of his life.
JS: Alright, and how many kids were in your family?
00:01:07
KA: Well in my family, there’s only two. I have an older brother and myself and then in
his family there were thirteen and in my mother’s family there were seven. So they both
came from big families.
JS: But they downsized a little. And what kind of schooling did you have?
KA: I went to, I was in the third graduating class from Mona Shores High School, which
was a brand-new suburban high school that had just been built and it was the typical
suburban high school I would say. We had a lot of advantages. One of the things that was
fun about being in the third class was that there were lots of opportunities because
everything was brand new. So we were setting the theme song, we were setting all of the
colors, we were setting the mascot, we had all of that fun of setting up a brand new high
school.
JS: And when you were going through high school, was it your expectation that you were
going to go on to college?
00:01:57
KA: Oh absolutely. Because of my dad’s experience, I never was, and I’m sure this story
is very common, was one of those kids who never had the choice whether to go or not. It
was where I was going to go or not. And then I had an unusual high school experience
that probably helped to shape some of my own background, in that Mona Shores had a
very unusual high school debate team. So I started debating when I was in the ninth grade
and there were seventy-five kids on our debate team. And I debated all during high
school ending up on a national championship team as a senior. And because of that, was
able to get a scholarship to go to the college of my choice. My parents were really high
on me going to community college for two years because of the money. So once I could
prove that I could pay to go somewhere else, I was able to do that, which was nice.
JS: And where did you want to go?
00:02:47
KA: I went to Albion College which is a small liberal arts Methodist college just down
the road from Grand Rapids in Albion, Michigan. And I went there because it had
beautiful gas lamps and because they gave me the money to be able to debate and had a
national championship team at the time.
JS: Alright and then what did you study while you were there?
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
2
�KA: I started out, I was going to be a high school debate coach because that’s what I
knew. And about halfway through my schooling, about as a junior, I took my first
political science course and I fell in love with political science. My dad had been very
active politically on the local level. Part of the advantage of working at the shop was he
was done at 2 o’clock in the afternoon and then he would start his real life. And so he was
a volunteer fireman and my mother was the person who called the volunteer firemen
before 9-1-1 existed and my brother was a volunteer fireman and my dad had been a
founder of the city of Norton Shores, had been involved in a lot of political campaigns
and so I ended up really falling in love with American political theory, had a great
professor, took every course I possibly could get from him and my original intention was
then to teach political science at, which would be civics at the high school level, and
coach debate. And then when I graduated I found out that the combination in high school
that you have to have as a teacher is English and debate not the civics and debate, so I
never was able to find a high school teaching job.
JS: At that point, was there not yet an expectation; you went through teacher certification
process and extra certification or things like that?
00:04:25
KA: I went through…I was certified to teach at high school but I think I probably got
frankly bad counseling. And because I had such a passion for political science, or I
wasn’t listening, you know, I stayed on that track rather than picking up the English
major.
JS: So you were technically qualified to teach. The catch was that you didn’t have the
right combination of fields to do what they wanted to hire. Now, what year did you finish
college?
KA: It would have been ’71.
JS: Okay, well things are getting kind of interesting in the American political scene by
then too. Antiwar protests going on, and a lot of other things going on at the same time. I
mean did you get caught up in that yourself?
00:05:04
KA: Some. I considered it a very hard time to have been in college partly because I didn’t
want to be involved politically. I wanted to learn. I thought, you know, I was so set to go
to college and I had this vision of it being a place that would be safe and that I could go
deep into a topic. I actually probably had an unusual experience. I suppose everyone in
the sixties had an unusual experience, in that I wanted it to go away because I wanted to
study and I was a serious student. Of course the University of Michigan was just down
the road and a lot of that would fall over onto Albion or we would go back when there
were protests. And there was a lot of protesting on campus. My graduation was very
politicized. We had no senior year book because no one wanted to do it at the time.
Everyone was too involved in things. And I suppose from that point of history the most
memorable time for me was that one of my jobs, I had several on campus, was to be the
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
3
�telephone operator in our dorm which was a co-ed dorm, and the day of the first lottery I
was working the telephone and watching the guys come up from the basement and tear
up, and I actually tear up even thinking about it now, tearing up their all of their
acceptances to medical school and to law school and to graduate school and having their
moms call in tears saying, you know, “I’m really sorry you were born on this day because
you were number one or number two for the draft.” I’ll never forget it. Those experiences
go deep, I guess.
JS: The draft itself is something that is now an unfamiliar experience to anyone not at
least in their 40s, to have much clue of even what that was about.
00:06:44
KA: Yeah, that someone could come and say you have to go and that was the time.
JS: And so of course, college students, in a lot of cases had deferments, or at least that
was the principal. But…
KA: These were the seniors.
JS: So they were graduating. So they were, Uncle Sam could now catch up with them at
that point. So you finished college. How long did you spend trying to find a teaching job?
KA: Really my whole senior year, so just about a year. Then, I actually had fallen in love,
which does, a woman’s job description ought to have a parallel line that says, you know,
“fell in love, got married, husband decided to move, had a kid, had a child, had the next
child, decided to move somewhere else…” because there’s this parallel structure going
on in life. My husband was in the Air Force. He had been called up for the draft, had
gone in for medical deferment, found out that his medical condition could in fact be fixed
which was a big surprise the day before he was on his way to Detroit. So he ran and
signed up right away for the Air Force and was a translator. He spent two years in
Monterey, California in the language school and then a couple of years in Turkey as a
Russian translator in the security service. So the timing was such that when I graduated,
he was on the, just getting done with his tour and so we were planning on getting
married. My first job really was hanging out at Albion as an admissions counselor and
basically, I was hanging out to get married. It was an interesting job. I didn’t know what
else I was going to do. I couldn’t find a teaching job and so this seemed like a fun thing
to do. I went and talked to high school students about going to college.
JS: Alright so you do that for a year and then what?
00:08:31
KA: Well, we decided, he decided to use his G.I. Bill to go back to school. So he went to
Hope College. We were married. We were there for his last two years and again I was
basically just looking for a job and I was hired that summer as a social worker for a
woman who had just had a pregnancy leave. I, of course, knew nothing about social work
but I was hired as a social work replacement for the regional center for people with
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
4
�disabilities, to help to, this is when Michigan was de-institutionalizing a lot of people and
so my job was to make the connection from the institution back to the home community
when mental health agencies were first being set up, and to begin to look at what kind of
supports could be given to populations as they were returning home. So I did that for the
summer and then when my husband went to Hope, as it turned out Ottawa County’s
Mental Health was just getting organized and they hired me because I had a relationship
with the institution that was sending people to their community. So while I was there, I
developed their Life Consultation Center which is meant to be a lifelong support system
for families when there’s a child with disabilities. I worked with the hospitals setting up
those connections. I did a lot of getting volunteers involved in mentoring and support for
families, and working with older families who never expected that their loved one would
be coming home again. If you can imagine at the age of seventy, when you’ve put a child
in an institution at birth to suddenly have that child be coming home to live with you was
really quite traumatic for families and so we were doing a lot of support for them
JS: What kind of instruction or guidance or direction did you get while you were doing
this?
00:10:23
KA: [laughter] None. It’s my favorite kind of a job actually, which is make it up as you
go along. I think I was well served by Albion in terms of having a general education so I
knew how to learn and I knew how to teach myself. And so I would just go talk to people
and I would go read things. I would go to conferences and basically just picked it up as I
went along.
JS: So maybe, even that initial counseling experience, or just going and talking to people
and meeting people you don’t know, sort of ties in with that.
KA: It does. Yeah, I think it does. I would say most of my life, and this is probably, I feel
fairly fearless about those kinds of things. That given some time I can figure it out, and so
it wasn’t scary. It was just a matter of trying to get in there and figure it out and do the
best I could with it.
JS: Do you think that if you were today starting out with that kind of thing, in the world,
society and government and things the way they are, could you do the same thing as
easily? Could you just walk in and create programs?
00:11:26
KA: Well, probably not because the regulatory environment is much - right then was one
of those moments in history where no one knew what should happen, and the surface
reasons for deinstitutionalizing people were about great values: about that it’s better to be
treated closer to home, it’s better to mainstream people with disabilities so that they have
a more normal life circumstance. The reality was that the real reasons were dollars, and
promises were made that money would follow the patients and that never happened. And
so, at that point, it was a bit of a mess in terms of nobody really knew how to make it
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
5
�happen. So there’s an opportunity in that then to create what you think ought to happen. I
had that chance to do that.
JS: Alright. Now, how long did you stay with that work?
00:12:17
KA: I was there two years, the same two years my husband was in school and then we
had our first child, my son, and moved back to Muskegon. And I was then, worked for
Muskegon Community Mental Health, doing the same job now for Muskegon County. So
I worked for mental health there for about two years and then had my daughter, had a
second child. And then we were trying to figure out what to do with our lives, and my
husband said “Well, why don’t I go back, since I have this great Russian language
background, why don’t I go back and get a Ph.D. in Russian language and be a business
translator?” So this sounded like a good plan. So we sold the house, packed up the kids
and went to the University of Michigan, lived in married housing. My son started
kindergarten there and again I was looking for a job. Oh, I missed a step. I missed a step.
I’ll go back.
JS: That’s alright.
00:13:07
KA: When we were in Muskegon, for about three years, I had worked as the, I was home
with the kids a little while, about 2 years, and while I was home, I decided to go back and
get a Master’s degree because I was not happy being home just with the kids. So I went
back at night and got a Master’s degree in Public Administration because it was the
closest thing to what I thought I was interested in which is this community organizing,
world changing, you know, point of view. And so I went back to get the Master’s degree
and while I was home one of my friends called and said well there’s an opening as the
Director of Planned Parenthood in Muskegon so I took a job as a half time director of the
Planned Parenthood affiliate there and then finished up my Master’s degree and then we
decided that we would move. So when we moved to Ann Arbor, they had an opening in
the regional office of Planned Parenthood Federation of America doing multi-state
technical assistance for the nonprofit organizations. So I had a great background in terms
of professional development. They did a good job with things like risk management, and
human resource development, and board development and all of the things it takes to run
a nonprofit. And then I was in a training position at that point, and I think that’s when I
really became fascinated with how nonprofit organizations operate, and became very
interested in the organizational theory underneath them.
JS: Let’s plug in a couple more pieces here. Where did you get your Master’s degree
from?
KA: Oh, Western Michigan University because it was the closest campus available at the
time.
JS: And did you have to commute down to Kalamazoo to take the courses?
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
6
�KA: About half and half. I had half here and I had half at Western that I would commute
down. I was one of those people who left work at 5 o’clock got to school at 7 o’clock,
tried to stay awake until 9:30 and then drove home and got home at 11:30.
00:15:04
JS: Alright, and Planned Parenthood, at that point in time, we’re kind of getting at early
to mid 70s here?
KA: Yes.
JS: Was their principal activity largely promoting knowledge and education of birth
control or were they involved in abortion issues at that point?
KA: I was right at the transition. It was primarily related to birth control and my real
interest going in was around zero population growth. I was very concerned about, having
read the books about, you know, what I would say are environmentalists by ilk and we
were very concerned about how many children can this world actually support. And so I
went in it from that point of view and about half way through, I ended up spending about
ten years in Planned Parenthood, about halfway through was when Faye Wattleton came
in as president, and there was much more of an emphasis on abortion rights. But of
course the abortion, the Roe v. Wade happened in ’72 so it was a year after I graduated
from college, and really, it was sort of amid the midstream, that the idea of protecting
abortion rights actually started to take hold. So I was in Planned Parenthood as a Director
in Philadelphia, moving forward a little bit, during the Reagan years and we literally had
a GAO auditor who had an office right next to mine who would sit and watch all of our
books and everything that we did. We got to know him so well we would like hold
birthday parties for his kids [laughter] because he was there all the time. We decided it
would be better to include him than not to include him.
00:16:35
JS: Alright, so let’s kind of follow your itinerary a little bit. You’ve gone out; you’ve
been at the University of Michigan. How long were you in Ann Arbor?
KA: We were in Ann Arbor about a year and a half. My husband, as he went through it,
he was expecting to learn to be a translator, to deepen is knowledge in terms of
translation. The University of Michigan teaches the history of Russian in English and so
it was not the program that he thought he was going to get. And so he said to me “You
know, I don’t know what I’m going to do. Why don’t you go ahead and do what you
want to do and I’ll figure it out.” And so we, I then went as the Associate Director of
Planned Parenthood in Philadelphia which is a multi-county… there were fourteen birth
control clinics for example. It was a big organization. And then he came along and he
stayed home and then took some photography classes, and tried to figure out what he
wanted to do with his life. So he was the stay at home dad and I was the working mom at
a time when that was not, it was new. It was the leading edge I would say of that kind of
lifestyle.
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
7
�JS: Alright, then how long did you spend in Philadelphia?
00:17:44
KA: I think it was about four years and I really became tired a) of always being on the
front lines because it was a top-ten media market. Always being on the top, the front lines
on the abortion issue because it’s not my favorite issue to be advocating. And we also
decided that we wanted our children to be raised in the Midwest. There’s a different style
from the East coast than the Midwest, and we wanted our kids to be around their
grandparents and their cousins. And so we actually made one of those choices where we
stood in the kitchen one day and said let’s go home, and sold the house, no jobs, came
back, just shipped the kids and everybody came back home. So I was literally looking for
a job. And a hospital there, a local hospital, had had a number of years where they had
had fairly bad publicity, and because I had had so much PR experience in Philadelphia,
they hired me on as a public relations director. Again, I knew nothing about public
relations. I remember bringing in the, one of our guys who was working on our
brochures. One afternoon I said, “Okay, now I need to know everything you can tell me
about print media and I have about an hour and a half.” [laughter] And, you know, only
later did I realize what an outrageous question that was. But you know I did the job as
public relations and then I was promoted there to be vice president of planning, so I did
their planning and their marketing and handled the volunteers, and was their lobbyist for
about six years at Hackley Hospital in Muskegon. And while I was there, they had this
great benefit that they paid for higher education. So I was going to go back and get a
second Masters in health administration when my advisor at Western said why don’t you
get the Doctorate in public administration that we have. So I started in the D.P.A.
program, and that was held in Lansing and I did that for two years and decided I didn’t
like it because it was mainly about state government. And at this point in my life, I knew
what I wanted to learn, and I didn’t know where I could get it. I wanted a place like the
Johnson Center and it didn’t exist. So I went back and I took six months off and then I
went into the Ed school at Western because it had the most electives of any of the
doctoral programs. And I was able to, I sat through the higher-ed finance courses that you
have to, but then I was able to pick and choose from the university what courses I wanted
to take. I really knew what I wanted to learn so I was able to piece together really my
own doctorate.
00:20:16
JS: So you were kind of in a program geared towards people who were superintendents
and things like that, and to what degree did you sort of fit in or not with the people who
were in your classes?
KA: Not at all. In fact my dissertation took me about ten years. And the reason was that I
was educating my committee all the time because they were not in that discipline, in fact
no one was in that discipline. And I was trying to say to them, you know there is this
whole field called nonprofit, and so I had two educators and a political scientist on my
committee that I’m not sure, I think the only reason that I actually got my dissertation
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
8
�was that my chairman wanted to retire, and he finally one day said to me “We need to
wrap this up.” And I thought this sounds like a good thing. Let’s wrap this up.
JS: What kind of schedule did you have while you were doing that because you’re having
to juggle dissertation, work and everything else?
00:21:04
KA: Yes, It was a lot. I mean not only was I working full time at the hospital but then two
days a week I was driving to Lansing for classes during the early part of this, and then
when I left the hospital, I had finished my coursework at Western, and was ready to start
my dissertation work, and I decided that I was tired of hospital work. And I actually had
an interview here to come in as a faculty member in the Communications school. In the
morning I had that interview and I met with the Dean at noon, and then at 1 o’clock I met
with this woman named Dorothy Johnson. And I asked Dottie, I talked to Dottie. One of
my friends said that before you take the job at Grand Valley you have to talk to Dottie
cause she has a job that should be interesting. So I met Dottie and she said to me, why
don’t, I have this job its doing organizational development work for community
foundations. I didn’t know what a community foundation was, but she said, “And it will
only be three years. You’ll learn about foundations which will be interesting and then you
can go teach at Grand Valley.” So I said okay, I’ll do that. And that was a twenty year
span that I spent at the Council of Michigan Foundations. So while I left the hospital I
went to the Council of Michigan Foundations and then while I was there was when I did
my dissertation work.
JS: Alright. Explain a little bit, what is the Council of Michigan Foundations.
00:22:25
KA: Yes, the Council of Michigan Foundations is a membership association of the
foundations in the state of Michigan that make grants. So you might, for example, have a
school foundation that raises money for a school, they would not be members of the
Council of Michigan Foundations. So it’s Kellogg, Kresge, Mott, all of the community
foundations, corporate grant makers like Steelcase, and what they have in common is
their role as grant makers. And it was founded in ’69 following the ’69 Tax Act. Because,
at that point, Congress had put a lot of restrictions on foundations, and the foundations
came together to act politically to begin to roll back some of those restrictions that had
been placed on them.
JS: What kinds of restrictions had been placed on them?
00:23:09
KA: Well, it was interesting. Partly it goes back further to the 60s, in that the Ford
Foundation had been using its money to register voters in the south, and the Congress did
not like the fact that all of these black folks who hadn’t ever been able to vote, suddenly
were able to vote, knew where to vote, knew that they had the right to vote. And so
Congress got upset with Ford about that. And then they also got upset with Ford because
they had put majority ownership of the company into the foundation so that it couldn’t be
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
9
�touched by anybody else coming in wanting to buy the foundation, I’m sorry, buy the
company. So they called in Ford and the Ford president, at the time, said to them, “Who
are you? You have no right to control us. We were here before you were. The nonprofit
sector existed before government did in this country.” And we both argue over the
Mayflower Compact, whether it was government [laughter], whether it was a nonprofit
association and Congress said, here’s who we are. So they put a whole bunch of
restrictions. One of the restrictions was, for example, they required a payout that if you’re
having a private foundation that gets tax advantage, you have to give some of the money
away. You just can’t sit on it. They put restrictions on the amount of money that can be
spent on your own overhead or on travel, on what they call self-dealing, so you can’t hire
your own children at exorbitant salaries. And there were, in fact, abuses at the time. So
the regulations weren’t unwarranted, and the field, the mature part of the field like the
Council of Michigan Foundations, when they responded, basically said some of this we
like, some of it we think went too far. Let’s roll back what we think went too far. And
some of that was taxation that they thought would erode the value of the asset over time.
And so what they did instead was they rolled back some of the requirement for payout
and then they gave, private foundations gave some of the money to the IRS to help
support regulating the industry. So the Council of Michigan Foundations started out very
small and ended up, and still is the largest association of its kind in the country, and is a
national leader.
JS: Alright, and now what range of things did you do for them?
00:25:30
KA: I had a little project that was going to be three years and it was funded by the
Kellogg Foundation, and it was to encourage the foundations to engage young people
under the age of 21 as grant makers. This was really the beginning of youth
empowerment and the healthy youth, where instead of always looking at young people as
problems or always looking for distress in young people, the Kellogg Foundation’s
philosophy was, you know, young people are very strong, very healthy, very smart. Let’s
use that energy now. Let’s not wait for them as potential leaders. Let’s use it currently.
And so the community foundations, and at the time there were about thirteen of them in
Michigan, got together through the Council of Michigan Foundations and asked the
Kellogg Foundation for a grant to build youth advisory committees, and also to help them
build their assets. At the same time, there was new research coming out of Boston
College, that talked about the largest inter-generational transfer of wealth in the history of
mankind which is the fact of course that the United States had the only major industrial
economy in the world post WWII for lots of years. So there’s a generation that had a
tremendous amount of wealth, and still is in the process of transferring that over to their
children who are now in their fifties and sixties. I mean the children are getting up there.
But that, there was a lot of conversation in the field about, Muskegon is a good example,
about how at one point in time, Muskegon had more millionaires than anywhere else in
the country, post the cutting of all the white pine, and that money totally dissipated. And
it would, we think how could we go from being one of the most wealthy places in the
world, to having almost nothing in a couple three generations. So the community
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
10
�foundations were talking how do we capture some portion of this intergenerational
transfer of wealth, and keep it working in our communities forever?
So Kellogg gave this grant. We tested this theory that young people would be good grant
makers, and what we found out was that they were fabulous grant makers, and we went
back to Kellogg and said we think we now have a model. What if we do this in a big
way? And the proposal that we gave to Kellogg was they should invest sixty million
dollars over five years as challenges to Michigan’s communities, and we promised that
we would cover the state of Michigan with community foundation service, and that every
community foundation would have a youth advisory committee that would have real
power over money, not just advisory power, and that they, we would bring each
organization up to a minimum level of organizational viability. So for the next six years
that was my job. I would drive into little towns in Michigan and I would say, have you
ever heard of a community foundation? Let me tell you about it. I have a million dollars
in Kellogg challenge for you if you can raise two million dollars, and one of your
commitments has to be that forever there will be an advisory committee of young people.
And Kellogg’s million dollars would go into that fund that the young people would
advise on the giving, so that young people would be giving away fifty or sixty thousand
dollars a year of interest earnings on that endowment, and then the money that was raised
locally, the two million to match it would be unrestricted or very broadly restricted, so
the community could make decisions about urgent needs.
00:29:02
JS: Now, when you’re saying young people, what age range are we talking about?
KA: Under the age of twenty-one. Most of them were high-schoolers, and most of the
community foundations made the decision to try to build community capital in that
generation by having young people from various schools. And we used to have a phrase
that would say leave your letter jacket at the door because when you come into the room
you need to be looking at the whole community not just your own high school, and would
engage young people then from every high school in the community. And then Kellogg
really encouraged us, and smartly so, to encourage young people and bring them in, draw
in young people who were not the normal kids that you might put on that kind of
committee, particularly if you were concerned about handing them fifty thousand dollars
a year. So we would go after the kids who might be leaders but are leading in the wrong
way...kids smashing mailboxes. You know, they haven’t murdered anybody but they
were headed the wrong direction. And we have fabulous stories of young people that this
experience helped to turn around, because it was the first time adults had ever given them
real authority and real responsibility to make decisions. And what we found was that the
youth committees were incredibly honest outside of the normal politics of the
community. So they didn’t care who you were that was asking for money and then they
would ask hard questions. Can’t you get this copying done somewhere else? Why are you
spending $5.50 on postage when you could hand deliver it cheaper? Really, I have great
stories of one sheriff that, the Grand Haven Community Foundation is right next door to
the Council of Michigan Foundations, so one day we were coming in, all of us, and the
local sheriff was standing in the hallway, shuffling papers and looking nervous and we
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
11
�said well, we know, hi. How are you? What are you doing? I have this proposal to make
to the youth committee and I’m really afraid they’re not going to fund it. They’re going
to ask me hard questions. And they did. I mean, they were really terrific. And that still is
going on. That is a forever commitment on the part of the Community Foundations.
00:31:15
JS: Is that something you find across Michigan in a lot of different communities?
KA: Oh yes. We met our goals. Every community is now covered by a community
foundation. Almost all of them have a youth advisory committee, and almost all of them
are doing well. They have had a professional staff. They’ve begun to grow and they’ve
begun to capture some of this inter-generational transfer of wealth.
JS: And the youth committees themselves. Are they still kind of made up of the same
kind of people or have they gotten more conventional over time?
KA: Well, you know, I don’t know. I haven’t watched them lately. But my guess is that
those who, not every committee ended up doing unconventional kids, but those who did
have stayed that way. One of them, for example, held their meeting at Juvenile Justice
Hall up at Traverse City because the chair of the committee had been picked up for grand
theft auto. [laughter] So a really nice car that he thought he’d like to take for a spin and
ended up having his committee there. But many of them, of the kids have ended up, who
would not have normally gone on to school, or even those who had other career paths,
have changed their career path because of this experience of being able to give away
money.
JS: Alright. So that’s kind of the first thing that you go and develop for the Michigan
Foundations and what does that grow into or lead in to?
00:32:34
KA: Well, it led a lot of, it led into a lot of different things and one of them that it led into
was that, we became–we do a summer camp for the young people because we were,
actually we weren’t, but a lot of the community foundation board members, who as you
can imagine are the bankers and the lawyers and the more conservative people in the
community, were concerned about turning a million dollars over to a group of seventeen
year olds. And so we would have a summer camp every summer for the young people
and begin to talk with them about grantmaking, about evaluating budgets, you know,
what kind of questions to ask. And at this summer camp what we began to realize is that
they didn’t have the background or the depth of background, they didn’t have a language,
they didn’t have a way to think about the nonprofit sector.
And on a parallel course to this project was the development of the IU Center on
Philanthropy at Indiana University which was really the first big academic center that
began to consciously build a field of study. So they had a historian looking at the history
of philanthropy, they have an economist looking at the economics; they have a
geographer looking at the spread. I mean they really took all of the major academic
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
12
�disciplines and said, okay let’s put our focus and really begin to build a field of
knowledge. So that was happening at the same time, and as we were working with the
young people we thought we ought to be teaching them all of this great material that’s
being created, and the Johnson Center started, sort of, in the middle of all of this. And so
we looked at whether we could infuse into the curriculum of the K-12 school, the
teaching of philanthropic principals. That was my next project for the Council of
Michigan Foundations.
I had gotten tired of doing workshops and seminars on Saturdays and evenings which was
when the Community Foundation boards are available, and so really my passion has been
around these ideas, so we created this project called Learning to Give. And it was taking
the content, the graduate level at this point, content on philanthropy and looking at where
the connections were kindergarten through 12th grade, and knowing that the teachers have
way too much to teach K-12 than they possibly have time to do. That we couldn’t add
another course called Philanthropy, and actually we thought that probably wasn’t the
smartest way to do it because philanthropy is woven throughout our culture. So we took a
look at everything that’s taught and said, how can we begin to infuse philanthropic
messages? And so we started with the social studies because they are our most natural
home. So we started with history and geography and civics and began to look at every
place that’s taught. And we would, again I went to teachers and said I don’t know
anything about your lives in the classroom. You’re the experts on that but we have this
content. We think it’s really important because our thesis, at the time, was that having
knowledge about the sector, also would have an impact on student behavior, because
people would begin to think of themselves as philanthropists, students would. We had a
group of thirty-five teachers from various ages and various kinds of schools who helped
to shape the curriculum and we built a whole standards and benchmarks and learning
outcomes for philanthropy K-12. And then off of that we built a set of classroom lessons,
lesson plans, and because of Kellogg’s support they were always, they are currently still
all available for free to teachers on the website and they’ve all been recently coded to
every set of state standards. So a teacher, a third grade teacher, I want to teach about the
Underground Railroad, I can go online and find a lesson plan that talks about the
Underground Railroad because it’s required by my state, and on the M.E.A.P. test, but
this lesson plan talks about the fact that they were all volunteers, and who were the
abolitionists and how did they organize themselves, and why do they think they have a
right to confront government, and who were the Underground Railroad conductors, and
what was this role as volunteers that they held? So we tried to take this theory of
philanthropy in every single thing that was taught. The next big area we picked up was
English, because there’s a lot of philanthropy in the normal books that are taught in all
the way through the K-12 curriculum. And then we did a high school level text book that
has been out there. I don’t know how many copies they’ve sold but it’s available and
available online and that project is still continuing.
00:37:26
JS: Now, a text book in philanthropy or is it an English textbook that has philanthropy in
it?
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
13
�KA: It’s a textbook in philanthropy, but the chapters are in civics. So it’s philanthropy in
history—American history, philanthropy in U.S.—in world history, philanthropy in
government, philanthropy in world government, world governments, politically plural,
philanthropy in geography, and so we went—I think it’s a seven chapter book. It was
about the discipline that is required to be taught in high school, but it’s from the
philanthropic slant.
JS: You’re combining the different disciplines in the one volume?
KA: Yes. It’s one volume.
JS: Is that designed actually for student use or for teachers?
KA: We did both a student volume and then we did a teacher volume. And of course at
high school it’s a little difficult because the teachers are in their own slot; you know they
don’t teach across the disciplines. But it was cheaper to do them as one volume for each,
so there’s a teacher guide and a student textbook.
JS: Was there any way to measure the extent to which anybody is using it?
00:38:33
KA: Only on the sales and I don’t think it has sold very well. Most people are going to
the website and downloading lesson plans, and they were downloadable so that, every
classroom, they always want to make them their own, so you can download the lesson
plan into a word document and then actually manipulate it and add your own content.
JS: Are the lesson plans set up to be geared towards specific topics that are in these
different fields? You mentioned the Underground Railroad for example. You’re trying to
look for material on the Underground Railroad that you can go use in your class. You can
find this and in its design to work for them that it has the philanthropic part of it
emphasized or woven into it.
KA: There’s a search engine and you can search by academic strand or requirement. So
like the Underground Railroad, that’s how you would search, or you can search by
philanthropic topic, or you can search by grade level, or you can search by keyword. So it
has a lot of ways to be able to get at the material.
JS: Have you got then additional programs or initiatives, or kind of what after you’ve
developed this, what then did you kind of get into?
00:39:41
KA: I was there ten years. That was a long haul for me. That was ten years. And we were
ready to take it to, we were beta testing it in Michigan, with the idea that it would be a
national model, and we were looking for ways to make it national. And there are all kinds
of issues, as you can imagine, between being able to do something in depth in one state,
versus trying to go broad in multiple states, especially in K-12 education because it’s
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
14
�state by state. I had a very wonderful group of advisors, Michigan advisors. And I bet we
looked for two years about how to take it national, when a young guy came in who has
done these kinds of projects before, and he was very interested in service learning, which
would be a teaching methodology for all of this content. And he had asked if we couldn’t
partner in it. As we talked more and more with them, we decided that we would merge
Learning to Give with this project called The League. And that we would be the academic
content, and then he would have a sort of jazzy marketing. And it allows, what happens is
there’s a calendar during the year in The League, that starts with a fall cleanup and then
young people earn so many points for doing these kinds of acts of kindness and
philanthropy. And so they would learn about it in their classroom and then they would go
out and do the service learning and get points for it and then they would be set up in
leagues and there would be league play and national reporting on it. And I think maybe
this spring will be the first time in Parade Magazine they’re going to start to talk about
how The League is doing in different parts of the country. So it’s gone to that level. So
we were ready to, we merged with them; we were ready for it to go national. The
organizational role was that I would become the chief operating officer and Bill would be
the CEO and then I decided that I a) didn’t want to be a chief operating officer. That’s not
really my good skills. And that I was at a point in my life where I didn’t want to do a
national launch because it would mean not only working hard but traveling a lot
nationally. And this job was open at the Johnson Center, so every time it has been open I
would lay it face down on my desk and I would look at it and think, ooh, that’s a really
nice job. I really like that job. And this is the first time that it’s happened to be open at a
time when I could leave a project and it’s just a place where I wanted to be so I was
fortunate enough to come here.
JS: And then when was that exactly when you started?
00:42:10
KA: Four years ago in April. So I’ve just been here four years
JS: Alright. Now tell us a little bit just about the Johnson Center itself for people outside
of here. What is it designed to do? What is its function? What kind of function does it
have?
KA: Yes. We’re one of forty-four, what are called academic centers on philanthropy, that
are university-based. We’re probably the second or the third largest depending on what
you count, and we’re maybe the second or the third oldest depending on which programs
you count. Often some of the programs are a faculty member or two, who have had an
interest in philanthropy and have built their own scholarly work in that field. But once
those faculty members retire, probably that program will go away. So the Johnson Center
is different in that we’re institutional. And it really doesn’t matter who’s here. The
institution will continue because the university and the Kellogg Foundation have both
made a commitment to it. So we started when Kellogg looked at the IU Center and said
we really like what’s happening there. We’d like one of these for the state of Michigan.
And the president of the Kellogg Foundation at the time, Russ Mawby, brought together
all of the university presidents from the state of Michigan, had a meeting, and said we
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
15
�would like to fund one of these, but university, we want you to make a commitment of
money, and a real commitment that you will develop a center. And of the fourteen
universities, two put in proposals and Grand Valley’s was the strongest so it ended up at
Grand Valley. There was a $990,000 challenge grant from Kellogg matched by $900,000
from Grand Valley which launched the Center. So in our early years, the first director,
Thom Jeavons, again this was the start of service learning, he really stressed bringing
service learning to the faculty members at Grand Valley, trying to introduce this as
teaching methodology, as a pedagogy, and that they would begin to embrace it. He left
and our second director was Dott Freeman and she came out of the corporate
philanthropy side of the family, and so she was really stressing work with corporations.
And then when she left one of the faculty members from our School of Public
Administration, Donna VanIwaarden, came, and Donna was the third director and really
stressed more of the scholarship and the research. At that same time, Joel Orosz, who had
been the head of the program officer for philanthropy and volunteerism at Kellogg, came
here as our distinguished professor, and really helped to launch the Center as a national
presence. Before that, we were pretty Grand Valley and pretty West Michigan focused.
And Donna, because of her ties in the community, launched one of our main services
which is the Community Research Institute.
So taking them kind of one a time, the Community Research Institute, the Grand Rapids
Community Foundation wanted to do data-based decision-making and they had to make a
choice, do we build this capacity inside our own organization or do we build it at Grand
Valley, so it’s available to everyone? And they made the choice to do it at Grand Valley.
So the Community Research Institute started doing research first for the Grand Rapids
Community Foundation, and now we do it for most of the foundations in West Michigan.
And we’re looking, it makes us a little different from the other centers on philanthropy,
because they’re looking at doing research about the sector, so their research says how
many volunteers are there, how much are people giving, what kinds of organizations are
in the sector. Our research is more research for the sector. So we’re looking at what are
the rates of child abuse, then giving that information to the nonprofit organizations, so
they can use that data to make data-based decision-makings, working with the food
pantries to find out where is hunger. And we do a lot of geo-coding and mapping, so
where does hunger exist in West Michigan? And then we work with the food pantries to
help them look at where they should be delivering services. So that’s the Community
Research Institute.
00:46:24
JS: So you have, sort of, organizations or groups or whatever, who have an idea, they
think they want to help in a particular sector or do something but they’re not sure where
exactly to put the money. This information helps them figure out how to do that.
KA: We’ll do regular program evaluations, so some of them get grants and we do the
program evaluation for them. But the more interesting work is this work, and the food
pantries is a good example. We did research about where do senior citizens live in Kent
County, who are hungry, who need food support. And then on the geo-mapping what we
overlaid were the pockets of concentration of those populations, and then we overlaid
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
16
�what are the public transportation routes, and then we overlaid where are the food
centers, so where can they get food. And immediately, you can look at the map and say,
Oh my gosh. Here’s a group of senior citizens who don’t have access to transportation
and who don’t have access to food support. And then we can take that and work with the
food pantries and they, we would then overlay where are the churches and synagogues
and religious communities, and where are the schools, the elementary and public schools.
So the pantries could begin to say, who could be our natural partner where we could
deliver service and we do that kind of work for foundations and for nonprofits all the
time. And so that’s the Community Research Institute.
When Joel came in, we really became involved in providing support and doing research
and training for foundations, for grantmaking foundations. And that again makes us very
different from our peers because most of the other academic centers don’t touch the grant
maker’s side of the family at all. We launched The Grantmaking School, which is a
national school to help grant makers learn their craft. A problem for grant makers is that
most of them when they’re hired are hired, because they have deep content knowledge.
They may be the premier water quality person in the world, and the Annenberg
Foundation can hire them. They’re hired; they know everything there is to know about
fresh water quality in rivers in the upper Midwest. So they have this deep, deep content
knowledge and suddenly their job is to look at budgets, and make decisions about how
the money ought to be given away, and how do I strategically look at six grants to make
sure that they interact with one another. In some ways, it’s a difficult job in that the
person loves the content, and often they’re making grants to people who have very good
project ideas, and they have to say no to more than, what ninety percent of them. So
they’re saying no to things that they care about to people who know are doing really good
work, and they have to say no just because there’s not enough money to go around. And
they really need help. And what is this transition from being, from having deep content
knowledge to being the person who’s giving the money away, and we do that in The
Grantmaking School. We do that all over the country, we do it in major cities, and that
part’s been going pretty well.
00:49:26
JS: How would you characterize your own job description right now? What is it that you
do here day-to-day?
KA: What do I do here? A little bit of everything. It’s a cook and bottle washer kind of
job. I raise money. I do strategic planning. I have, there are seven program directors. I
have a lot of staff supervision. I handle all of the, or most of the relationships,
relationship building, I would say both within the university and outside in the
community. Because we are not an academic center, in a sense that we don’t give the
degrees. You know, the School for Public Administration is the place that actually gives
the degrees. So I partner, we partner with them. We have a lot of graduate students
working here, and a lot of what I do is trying to keep it all headed the right way, you
know, as things pull you other directions and to be able to raise the money to be able to
support it. We’re mainly supported by outside money to a great extent.
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
17
�The other, the third thing we do is, so that we don’t loose that piece, is that we also do
training and support for nonprofit organizations. Grand Rapids had a program called the
Direction Center. It was one of the first in the country that had been designed and funded
by the area foundations to support nonprofits, and it was supposed to become selfsufficient but they never could charge enough to be able to do that. So when it failed, it
came into the Johnson Center, and we still do a lot of training on how to be a nonprofit
board member, how to be a CEO, and mainly we’re doing that for smaller, midsized
nonprofits. Spectrum Health doesn’t need our help. They go and hire whoever they want.
It’s the women’s shelter, it’s the neighborhood association, it’s the Paws for a Cause, it’s
all of the, you know, it’s Latin Americans for Progress, those kind of organizations who
are coming to us for assistance.
00:51:22
JS: Alright, now, to back up a little bit in another section. You talked about the Johnson
Center being created and so forth. When this got set up at Grand Valley who was
instrumental in terms making that happen? Was this one of these ideas that captured
President Lubbers’ imagination?
KA: Yes. It was launched from Russ Mawby, the president of the Kellogg Foundation,
whose, I would say his 30 year tenure at Kellogg would be typified by being a builder of
the infrastructure organizations to support the whole sector. That’s really how he’s
known. And so when he launched it, he made the offer to President Lubbers, who had the
right kind of entrepreneurial spirit and the vision to be able to say, I could see what this
would look like twenty years from now. We’ll be twenty years old two years from now.
So that was a natural, a natural combination, and the university has continued to be
extremely supportive, even as Kellogg’s support has gone up and down. The university
built this new space for us, and built it to our specifications. They want it to a place where
the community comes in and interacts with the university. So we’ve been very fortunate
to have the kind of support that we do.
00:52:35
JS: Okay. What’s the relationship with the Johnson family?
KA: Oh, yes. What happened was that when Dottie Johnson retired from the Council of
Michigan Foundations, they were looking for a way to honor her at that point twenty-five
years of service. And she really had built the Council of Michigan Foundations from
nothing. She was at half time in a closet, basically when she started it. And is a well
known national leader; she started the Foundation Center, she was involved with the
Council on Foundations, was on the Corporation for National Community Service Board.
When Dottie retired, we were trying to, I was at CMF at the time, we were trying to find
a way to honor her. And the thought was that we could talk with the university, because
her family’s been involved and she’s been involved with Grand Valley, about naming the
Center after her. So the CEO at that time of the Council of Michigan Foundations, Rob
Collier, raised the money to be able to bring over all of the library resources of the
Council of Michigan Foundations, and a half a million dollar endowment for the library,
and then the name, the Center was named in her honor. And no one deserves it better. She
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
18
�really has been a great leader both for Grand Valley and for the field. Now, the materials
that came over, some of them were videotapes, original videotapes of people like Mr.
Kresge talking about his philanthropy that are irreplaceable, and those are all out at the
archives. So this tape that we’re doing is a part of a continuing effort to say, let’s capture
this rich Michigan history. Michigan is known nationally as being a very unusual state
because we’re so well, our philanthropic community is so well organized and works so
well together that we’re somewhat the envy of the rest of the country and we want to
capture some of those stories.
00:54:33
JS: Alright. And finally, I would like to ask where do you see this particular center going
after the next decade or so? What are you going to be trying to accomplish from here?
KA: I had three goals when I started. One was our own building, a twenty million
endowment, and a Ph.D. So far I have the building. (laughter) I would like to see us selfsufficient, on our own, so if we were self-sufficient with an endowment, a large
endowment, then we would be able to continue to help these smaller organizations that
have no where else to go, and I, we’re continuing to do that even though that’s the part of
our budget that struggles. And the reason is that I think that it keeps us honest. It’s very
easy to come into a very nice building and a very nice university and be taken care of,
and forget what its like to run the neighborhood association where you can’t get a copy
machine and you don’t know how you’re going to pay people for the next payroll. And so
I want us to stay rooted deeply in the community and to become a place where nonprofit
leaders can always come and always feel supported and that they’re getting the
knowledge that they need. We, in partnership with the School for Public Administration,
are just proposing a new Master’s degree in philanthropy that we’re hoping that we can
launch in the fall. And that would be a first step towards the possibility of a Ph.D. Now,
Grand Valley is not a Ph.D. granting institution, so I’ve been talking with IU about
whether we could do their Ph.D. here by extension. Or there is some conversation on
campus about an Ed.D. and if we did an Ed.D. whether there could be a major in
philanthropy and nonprofits, because where our counter part academic centers are really
focused on producing academic research and academic practitioners and faculty members
for centers on philanthropy, we are much more applied and so the Ed.D. would make
sense for us because we would be preparing, what I call reflective practitioners, people
who want to be out in the field running nonprofits but also want to do it with, within the
scope and scale of a discipline and with deep knowledge about what they’re doing, and I
can see us preparing that kind of a professional here and would like us to be on the
cutting edge of that.
00:56:53
JS: Alright. Now let’s see. Do you think that there is anything significant about what
you’ve done in your career that we’ve managed to leave out at this point?
KA: No. The kids grew up. My husband became a teacher [laughter], a sixth grade
science teacher. So yes, the life went on, but yes, I think that’s a good coverage.
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
19
�JS: Alright. Well, thank you very much then.
KA: Thank you, Jim. Good.
Oral History Interview with Kathy Agard, April 6, 2010
20
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aa10b790082faa25d40504056ef5df6d.mp4
83a33cc988eafb1345a03dcdec8986fc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews
Subject
The topic of the resource
Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives
Family foundations--Michigan
Charities--Michigan
Description
An account of the resource
The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-02
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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Sound
Text
Moving Image
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
video/mp4
Identifier
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JCPA-08
Coverage
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2006-2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Johnson Center for Philantrhopy
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
StoryCorps (Project)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (JCPA-08)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Agard, Kathryn A., video interview and transcript
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Agard, Kathryn, A.
Description
An account of the resource
Kathryn A. Agard, Executive Director of the Johnson Center for Philanthropy at Grand Valley State University, 2006-2010. She discusses her early life, education, family, and work in the Mental Health field, at Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Hackley Hospital, Council of Michigan Foundations, and the Johnson Center. She discusses developing Youth Advisory Committees in Michigan Community Foundations, Learning to Give and the development of philanthropy curriculum for grades K-12. She shares the history of the Johnson Center, development of its programs and partnerships, efforts to capture Michigan’s philanthropic history and her goals as director.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership, Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Philanthropy and society
Personal narratives
Charities
Michigan
Associations, institutions, etc.
Muskegon (Mich.)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership
Women
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
JCPA-08_AgardK
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Relation
A related resource
Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-04-06
-
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The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: Kathy Agard
Interviewer: Jim Kelley
Date: 10/10/06
Time: 39:01
Facilitator: Elaine D.
Location CMF-Kalamazoo
(0:55) How Kathy got involved in CMF, talks about getting debate scholarship- 1st
time she learned about philanthropy
(2:45) Jim talks about how he became involved in philanthropy, his backgroundFord Foundation Scholarship to U Chicago
(4:15) His mentor, John Gardener- When he and Kathy first met through CMF
(5:20) Talk about how they aren’t able to go back and thank people- motivated
then to pass on philanthropy through Learning to Give- Youth grantmaking, talks
about ignorance of philanthropy
(7:37) Kathy describes the context for starting Learning to Give, what was going
on in the U.S. and around the world
(9:30) Role of schools, Jim’s work with National Board Certification (for
teachers)- talks about education in the U.S. and how he became involved in
Learning to Give
(12:45) Kathy talks about what Jim brought to the project
(14:25) What Jim learned from teachers, talks about his values for education and
democracy- how it affects his philanthropy- how it relates to constitutional
rights- Learning to Give empowerment not just charity
(17:45) Knight Foundation- their work to educate about 1st Amendment
(19:00) More about John Gardener’s influence on Jim (President of Carnegie
Corporation of New York and was in LBJ’s cabinet), what Jim learned working
with John
(22:10) The unusual community and network of foundations in Michigan and
Kathy’s vision for the future
(23:23) Dottie Johnson- head of CMF, her role as leader in Kellogg
(25:08) Relationship between market economy and philanthropy
�(28:00) Young people: interested in philanthropy but disillusioned by
government- need for all sectors in the U.S. to be strong (for profit, government
and non-profit). Jim wants more freedom to go between sectors
(31:30) Kathy’s goals at Johnson Center at Grand Valley State University, Jim’s
goals in his consultative work
(33:15) Jim hopes her center will develop new leaders
(34:05) His work with Asia society, his other interests (technology in schools)
(37:05) Their hopes for their grandchildren, what they’ll know about
philanthropy
(38:40) Jim mentions the idealism of youth
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/664c1dc7aa33be6364dccd1f4f4cedaa.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews
Subject
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Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives
Family foundations--Michigan
Charities--Michigan
Description
An account of the resource
The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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2017-05-02
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Sound
Text
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eng
Type
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audio/mp3
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video/mp4
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JCPA-08
Coverage
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2006-2008
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Johnson Center for Philantrhopy
Contributor
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StoryCorps (Project)
Oral History
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JCPA-08_Agard-Kelly
Title
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Conversation with Kathy Agard and James Kelly
Creator
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Agard, Kathy
Kelly, James
Description
An account of the resource
Kathryn Agard, Executive Director of the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership and James Kelly, Co-Chair of Learning to Give, talk about their involvement in creating Learning to Give - a Council of Michigan Foundations supporting organization educating youth about the importance of philanthropy, the civil society sector and civic engagement.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives
Charities--Michigan
Council of Michigan Foundations
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership
Women
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Source
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Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews
Relation
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Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08)
Contributor
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Sound Portraits Productions
StoryCorps (Project)
Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2006-10-16
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/342c4d57fdfab13781a6fed24fb029c3.pdf
2e7242a45c9d242e5f1c7563f8333067
PDF Text
Text
The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: Breannah Alexander
Interviewer: Katelin Griffin
Date: 6/24/07
Time: 39:44
Facilitator: M. Premo
Location: University of Michigan
(0:46) Discuss how long she has been involved and how she became involved in
philanthropy
(4:36) Proactive grant-making
(5:48) Needs assessment
(9:00) Attracted to philanthropy
(10:05) Discuss how its helping and making a difference
(10:34) Philanthropy starts with youth
(11:30) National Youth Service Day, impactful event, power of social responsibility
(12:36) Knowing what to do
(13:23) The importance of moving the money
(14:00) Peer to peer impact of getting others involved
(20:00) Important for the people who are going to inherit the world, to solve its
problems
(21:00) Young people helping young people
(21:20) How this has changed her outlook on life
(23:00) How she sees herself as a volunteer
(26:55) Know applicant forward and back
(31:15) Example of grant manipulation to look for
(33:20) Example of grant recommendation
(35:00) Best grant types, peer support
�(36:30) Discuss her advice to young YACers
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/02ca3ba17c0d497ac489df467e2dc69a.mp3
03bc4d57a3ea5e44d593e2420e032404
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews
Subject
The topic of the resource
Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives
Family foundations--Michigan
Charities--Michigan
Description
An account of the resource
The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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2017-05-02
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Sound
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Moving Image
Language
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eng
Type
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
video/mp4
Identifier
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JCPA-08
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2006-2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Johnson Center for Philantrhopy
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
StoryCorps (Project)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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JCPA-08_Alexander-Griffin
Title
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Conversation with Katelin Griffin and Breannah Alexander
Creator
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Alexander, Breannah
Griffin, Katelin
Description
An account of the resource
Youth grantmakers Breannah Alexander of the Saginaw Community Foundation, and Katelin Griffin of The Eaton County Community Foundation talk about their involvement in their local Youth Advisory Councils and what philanthropy means to them as young people trying to make change.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives
Family foundations--Michigan
Charities--Michigan
Michigan Community Foundations
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews
Relation
A related resource
Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sound Portraits Productions
StoryCorps (Project)
Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-06-14
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d477cace4c921d4510e4efadbd528cda.mp4
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Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Isabel (Lefty) Alvarez
Length of Interview: (00:37:11)
Interviewed by: James Smither,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, June 30, 2010
Interviewer: “Can you begin to tell us a little bit about your background? To start
with, where and when were you born?”
I was born on October 31, 1933 in Havana, Cuba.
Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living or what did your family do?”
Well, my father was in the marines and then in the police force for fifty years.
Interviewer: “So he had a regular job. How many children were in your family?”
My brother and myself only
Interviewer: “When did you start playing baseball?”
I think very—my mother was all sport orientated and she knew it was healthy, so baseball
they played in the street you know and she let me do the sports, but she didn’t let me do
any other things. 1:14
Interviewer: “What other sports did you play besides baseball?”
Fencing, soccer and baseball most of all
Interviewer: “Now, when you played these games, were you mostly playing with
boys or were there a lot of girls too?”
In the fencing there was women, it was well organized and directing the fencing was
people from the government.
Interviewer: “Did you have fencing tournaments and did you travel around?”
At the time, in fifty-- it was the time, I can’t remember the exact day, but we were going
to go to Europe for fencing and I had to make up my mind if I wanted to go to Europe or
come to the United States to play baseball, so I decided to come here and I would like to
know the date, I can’t remember. 2:09
Interviewer: “Well, when did you first have contact with American baseball?
When did you start playing either with or against American teams?”
1
�In 1947 when they went to spring training and we had an exhibition game and to let you
know, I pitched that one game.
Interviewer: “How old were you when you pitched in this exhibition game?”
I was fourteen years old. In 1947, now I figure it out.
Interviewer: “If it was in the spring of 1947, you were probably thirteen.”
Thirteen, I can’t imagine.
Interviewer: “How did you do?”
I did very well, that’s what my mother told me. She was at the game and that’s the first
time my mother saw me play. 2:54
Interviewer: “How did they get the team together? How did you wind up on the
team?”
The owner of our Cuban team was a—he was the owner of a wine distillery and he had a
lot of connects with tourists and how he get to know Max Carey and the commissioners
of the league, I don’t have any idea, but he had a lot of good connections and a lot of
money and we had a place to go and train. I love it you know because we even stayed on
weekends and had food and everything. 3:33
Interviewer: “And do you remember at all what happened in that game that you
pitched against the Americans? Your mother told you, you did well.”
Well that’s when they decided they were going to bring four Cubans to the United States
and the President came to my house to my mother and said I wasn’t old enough to come
to the United States, you had to be fifteen, so I waited until 1949, I was fifteen then.
Interviewer: “You really knew from 1947, that you wanted to go.”
Yeah, the manager said, the Cuban manager, “you’re going to be next”, so I knew and it
was anxiety you know. 4:16
Interviewer: “So then when it gets to 1949 and you’re going to go to America, how
did they get you over to the states and where did you go first? Do you remember
about going over?”
The first time I step here in the United States to go to play for—it was Chicago and I—
coming fresh from Cuba at that age, I didn’t even know I was in Chicago.
Interviewer: “How did you get from Cuba up to Chicago?”
By—how did I get over there? A plane to Miami and then drive to Chicago.
Interviewer: “You drove to Chicago?”
2
�No, I didn’t drive—how did I get over there? That’s a funny thing, how did I get to
Chicago?” 5:08 We fly, we had to fly. We flew yes.
Interviewer: “Now, were you all by yourself when you did this or did you have
someone with you?”
There were three Cubans with me.
Interviewer: “So, a group of four Cubans go together?”
Yes, together, that’s how we first started in 1949.
Interviewer: “So, the time you came to the United States did you speak any English
yet?”
Not very much, my mother was tutoring me with words and works and everything
because my mother was right, to learn English. There was a professor in Cuba, a
neighbor, he was supposed to learn, to teach English and my mother sent me to him for a
week . He thought I could learn English in a week. I don’t know, so then my brother,
when I came over here he said, “well you knew English when you came to the United
States”, and I said, “I did not know the English much in a week”. 6:09
Interviewer: “What happened once you got to Chicago? What did they do with you
then? What did you do?”
They assigned us to a team and I was assigned to the Chicago Colleens.
Interviewer: “Did the team make any provision to help—were you the only Cuban
player they had or did all of you go together?”
No, there were four of us.
Interviewer: “All four of you to one team?”
Yes, two, there were two teams, the Chicago Colleens and the Springfield Sallies.
Interviewer: “So two went to each team?”
Yes. 6:45
Interviewer: “You had somebody else there from Cuba.”
Yes, those years, Madelia, the older one. She was the one who helped a lot with the
language because she knew pretty good English when she came.
Interviewer: “How well did you get along with the other players on the team?”
3
�I had no problem with getting along because I was happy to be here and I knew that I had
to get along because my mother was right there and she wanted me here in the United
States, so I better—I don’t know, it was something natural. I was trained to like the
United States from my mother and I think it’s good. 7:36
Interviewer: “At this point you were a pitcher?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Primarily pitching, all right, now was the game you were playing
here any different from the game you played in Cuba in terms of the style of play or
the equipment used or anything like that?”
The ball was a little bigger, but I don’t really—I got adjusted so well, I feel, that I don’t
have any knowledge about it that I had trouble because I was here to play ball and that’s
what my mother wanted me to do.
Interviewer: “Ok, and how successful were you as a player at that point? Did you
Pitch well and win games?”
Well, I don’t –all those years back, they got some scores—I got some baseball cards, but
my records, they don’t show that I was a real, real great ball player. 8:41 I don’t
consider myself that great.
Interviewer: “How long did you play in the American baseball league?”
Six years.
Interviewer: “Six years, you stayed in the league all that time?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “So you were apparently good enough to do that?”
Right, and I had the chance when the Colleens folded, I had a chance to go to Fort
Wayne, they picked me up to go to Fort Wayne and that’s the biggest opportunity I had.
Interviewer: “Did you like playing in Fort Wayne better than Chicago or was it
about the same?”
Well, we were in a group and we would ride the bus all together, everything was all
together, but when I went to Fort Wayne I was just on my own and it took me a little
longer time to start getting use to it, but it wasn’t anything that I disliked. You’re just in
a strange place all by yourself. After coming from a group and going to Fort Wayne you
didn’t know anybody and they were older. The girls in Fort Wayne that were playing,
they were older than I was. 9:59 I got along and I think I did very well.
4
�Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about the experience of just kind of traveling
around with these teams. When you’re going to play how did you get from one
game to another? What did they do? Did they put you on busses or trains?”
Yes, busses and oh yeah, we had more fun and I sat in the front, in the front seat, so I
could have the big window in the bus and then I can read the signs where we were going
and the manager was sitting in the other side and he was a mixed Cuban. I would read a
sign and he helped me to pronounce it better. 10:46
Interviewer: “Who was your manager at this time? What was his mane?”
Mitch Skupien, I might not be pronouncing it right, but he was really, really nice.
Interviewer: “When you were playing at these games, did you get a lot of fans who
would come to the games in Fort Wayne or Chicago?”
Yes, and I always had a lot of good—a lot of fans, they liked me, but everybody was
always nice. I have a lot of respect for the people here, but I was brought up that way.
Interviewer: “The league had a lot of rules for how the players were to dress and
act and all that kind of thing, was it easy for you to follow those rules or did it not
make any sense to you?” 11:48
No, No, it was because I was raised differently. My mother you know, different, and I
didn’t, my mother always pampered me a lot with lipstick and combing my hair and my
dress, she just couldn’t let me out of the house without being dressed nice. I didn’t go to
school there because the schooling was in 1943 and by 1949 they didn’t have those strict
rules. 12:26
Interviewer: “So it wasn’t quite the same as it was when the league started by the
time you got there?”
It was different it was just different.
Interviewer: “Were there particular friends you had on these teams or people you
got to know really well and stand out in your memory?”
Yes, I had a—it was more they get close to the Cubans you know and we always had that,
the players being very, very nice. I had pretty good luck in that and we had fun because
my English was broken and they laughed and I laughed with them because it was funny.
13:13
Interviewer: “Ok now, when you think back about the time that you spent in this
league playing these games, are there particular events or things that kind of stand
out in your mind or that come back to you a lot, good things that happened to you at
certain points along the way?”
5
�On the touring or on the whole?
Interviewer: “Anything about that whether it’s on the tour or in a game or off the
field.”
Well, I mean what—I’ve been lucky, I don’t know if it’s the right word because—
Interviewer: “If you hadn’t had the opportunity to come to the United States to
play baseball, what do you think you might have done over that period of six years
instead?”
You mean in Cuba?
Interviewer: “If you were back in Cuba, yes.”
Oh my dear, I don’t know, my mother would have been crying, but she would cry
because that was her ideal, the baseball, she loved baseball. She use to—in our house she
was one of those little old ladies and she would sit there and listen to the Cubans baseball
playing. She was, there was a team names Allemandes, their blue, and she would light a
little candle, she loved baseball. 14:38
Interviewer: “That really was her dream, that you go and do this?”
Exactly, she probably would have liked to play ball herself.
Interviewer: “Did she ever come up to the United States to see you play?”
Never
Interviewer: “Did anyone from your family come up at any point?”
No, they never could because at the time it was hard to sponsor anybody. I couldn’t
sponsor anybody, so it was rough.
Interviewer: “So there were immigration rules and things that made it difficult to
come up?”
You had to have a sponsor and I was very lucky in 1953 when Mr. And Mrs. Blee,
they—I met them through their daughter at a ball game. I met them, they took me home,
to their home, they gave me a room and then, because they knew I was a Daisy then you
see, and anybody who was a Daisy player, they had to be good people, and more or less
from Cuba. 15:37
Interviewer: “So, what kind of living—did you normally live with people’s families
in their home?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Did you do that in Chicago too?”
No, we stayed in hotels.
6
�Interviewer: “So, when you got to Fort Wayne you would go and live in people’s
houses?”
Yes
Interviewer: “So these people essentially sponsored you so you could stay in the
states?”
No, this was after the first year when I went to Fort Wayne in 1951. I already knew who
I was going to live with, I think the league set it up. The fans would take ball players in,
so I went to—with them, and this time in 1951 and in 1954 I went back to Fort Wayne
and where was I staying in 1954? 16:24
Interviewer: “I was asking, how did you wind up staying in the United States?”
Oh, yes
Interviewer: “You talked about people sponsoring you.”
In 1951, when I came on, I was rooming there for doing baseball and then in—I met
someone at a ball game for some reason. It’s a long story and I don’t know if you want
to hear that?
Interviewer: “We’re interested, yes.”
I was at the ball park watching some—I wasn’t playing ball, and there were some kids
playing softball and I went to the ball park to watch them, so I was sitting there, I was
very fresh from Cuba and I even had a little pocket with money that my mother always
said to put it in between your bra, and for some reason, I have some pictures, and I knew
I was a Daisy, so then that time I had some pictures with me and the kids were all crazy
about looking at my pictures and suddenly I don’t know where everything was. 17:31
My money, the money that I had, I must have—I don’t know and the pictures, I couldn’t
find nothing I was—so one of the girls from the ball team, she was the one that helped
me, she called the FBI and we were going to call the police to see if these kids have taken
the money and run, and guess what? That morning that was finding the police, the FBI
she said and I went to the ballpark and you know I found everything, the pictures and the
money, that little pocket. Somebody get scared and throw it around and I was very lucky
because I had about a hundred dollars and then she took me home to meet her mom and
dad and that was it. They give me a home and they applied for citizenship in 1953
because they knew I was—I was kind of lost really that year, it was in 1952. 18:47 I
went there and I stayed with them and became friends and this friend, it wasn’t a friend,
she was the one who helped me, she went into college and I stayed with her mom and dad
and I was sleeping in her room upstairs while she was in college, so I never saw this
friend, I never saw her very much. 19:16
Interviewer: “Now, the league shuts down after the 1954 season, so when that came
to an end what did you do at that point?”
7
�See, in 1953, Mr. and Mrs. Blee, I applied for citizenship paper, so in 1954 I had my
residence, so I didn’t go back home.
Interviewer: “What did you do for a living at that point?”
They give me a job I was a carhop. They call in the drive-in and he says, “I got a girl
here from Cuba and she don’t speak English, but she needs a job”, and Don Holt said,
“bring her over “, so they drove me in there and they give me a job and I could hardly
even speak English, but they were helping me. I use to go and take the orders you know
you put a tray in and sometimes I miss the tray drops and sometimes kids they laugh at
you. 20:25 I go inside, take the order and go inside and call it and the manager he saw
me coming and he grabbed my slip and said, “I can read it faster than you can call it”, but
you know what, I never got mad at him, I thought he was great, he was a good manager.
20:50
Interviewer: “How long did you wind up working there?”
I don’t know how many years, but I worked quite a bit until. Right, and then I went to—I
worked on the 401 Tailoring Co. also, so I really worked all through my whole after
baseball. I worked and I always had a job. Years ago you know they helped me to go
and get a job, they aren’t going to support you.
Interviewer: “If you look over that whole experience you had playing baseball etc.
How do you think that wound up affecting you? You talked a little bit about how,
and obviously your life was different because you came to America and stayed, did
it change you as a person? Did you otherwise?” 21:44
No, it probably made me better because I was raised that America was a good country
and you had that in your mind to respect.
Interviewer: “Have you paid much attention to what has happened with women’s
sports in this country over the past fifty years? You see more women on television
doing different things, basketball and that kind of thing.”
It is great and I think your mother and father have a lot to do with getting their son’s and
daughters to start playing sports and supporting them, but the mother has to have the
incentive like my mother did otherwise I wouldn’t be here because my dad said, “why are
you going to go over there where it’s cold?” It would have broke my heart if they would
never take me to come to the United States. 22:53
Interviewer: “Aside from just being on your own, were there aspects of just
adjusting to living in the states that were a problem? Did the cold bother you or
anything like that?”
No, I never did complain about the weather. As a matter of fact, I didn’t complain about
much of anything because I was here best and complain, ‘holly cow”. I never was that
type either, but I made a lot of friendships and that’s one thing and I don’t know I’m just
8
�myself, but my friends have made my world. In Fort Wayne too, I don’t have no enemies
I don’t think so. 23:53
Interviewer: “I can see why you wouldn’t. Do you have anything else that you
would like to put on the record here before we close out the interview? Anything
that you would like to say about the league itself or playing?”
Well, I am so thankful and I have been very lucky because of all the Cubans that came. I
believe that I—let me see how I’m going to say it, I just, the appreciation that I have
being here. 24:48
Interviewer: “Now, were their other Cubans that came and joined the league after
you did? Did you meet anybody new or were you the last group?”
Yes, and there were some that came before earlier.
Interviewer: “Alright, there is something I did want to get in here and ask you a
little and that’s, did you normally have a spring training session of some kind?
What did you do to prepare for a season from one year to the next?”
When I use to go back home or here?
Interviewer: “No, from one year to the next, while you were playing baseball, did
you go home in the winter?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Ok, you go home in the winter and then you?”
From 1949 until 1953 I use to go back home.
Interviewer: “When you came back, did you do spring training games before the
regular season?” 25:53
Yes, just a spring training practicing.
Interviewer: “Where did you do the practicing? Was that wherever your team was
based?”
Yes, and when I was in Chicago, in the morning we use to practice and on tour, the
touring team, we practiced the same and it’s a mostly in the morning we did our
practicing.
Interviewer: “Was it 1949 and 1950 that your team was touring?”
Right, we did a lot of practice.
Interviewer: “When you were touring would you play just any local teams from any
community you went to?”
9
�We had two teams, the Springfield Sallies and Chicago.
Interviewer: “They just toured together and played in different places.”
Yes, and they would advertise in the paper that we were in town and we had the tryouts
for the one, just like in the movie you know. 26:50
Interviewer: “As you were touring, how far away from Chicago did you get when
you were traveling? Did you just stay in the Midwest mostly?”
Yes, let me see, about—I had that written down how many places we went. I had a map
and right now I just can’t tell you because I—sorry.
Interviewer: “But there were a lot of different towns, not just two or three places?”
Oh yes
Interviewer: “Were they in a few hours of each other or did you have really long
trips sometimes?”
We played and we also left that same night sometimes. The traveling was heavy you
know and the many towns in the states; we had quite a few, close to fifty, fifty-six I think.
27:54
Interviewer: “You said you would hold tryouts when you went to these different
places?”
Yes and there was one lady, one of the girls, she’s in our team and she’s here today. We
pick her up in Cuba for Arkansas and she was a good pitcher and she came with us and
she had to leave home and she was--said English and we became friends because she was
sitting in the same seat. Can you imagine what she thought, I can’t speak English and she
was from Arkansas. We got along fine and we’re still good friends now and she stayed in
the league and she is really the only one we picked up that I can remember.
Interviewer: “Did they recruit women to play? At some point they had to through
junior teams or things like that. Did they recruit people for those teams or just—“
To play for us, yeah they had three and they had to be pretty good and she was, she was a
good pitcher and we always need pitchers.
Interviewer: “As far as your own playing career goes, you were a pitcher. Now,
were you a starting pitcher or were you a relief pitcher or both?” 29:32
I was a starter and relief both ways.
Interviewer: “And did you play any other positions?”
Outfielder.
10
�Interviewer: “So it wasn’t like the baseball teams today where the pitcher only
pitches and is sitting on the bench the rest of the time?”
No, no and also, the pitcher never get in hitting practice very much. I can’t imagine that,
so supposedly when you run the bases then they bring you your coat and that was real.
The pitcher was given great care and the chaperone would message your arm. 30:24
Interviewer: “So they did try to do what they could at that point to make sure you
didn’t blow out your arm or anything else like that?”
Right, they were very, very good.
Interviewer: “Now, did you ever get hurt while you were playing? Did you ever
have an injury that kept you out of the games?”
Yes, in 1954 in Fort Wayne.
Interviewer: “What happened?”
Trying to second base and I twisted my leg, so that was it. I went to the hospital and they
put me in traction and they left me in traction for one month, can you imagine this?
Interviewer: “That’s what they did back in those days.”
I lay there and I didn’t know nothing you know, so I never went back in the game
because I had to have surgery. 31:10
Interviewer: “Now, when you heard about the league shutting down, were you sad
about that or were you planning on going back?”
No, I wasn’t going back, I was just here, I was glad I had my residence. If I never would
have met those people I would be back in Cuba yet. My mother would cry then, but I’m
so thankful, you just can’t imagine how lucky I’ve been. I think I have been, of all the
Cubans and I’m not bragging, I have been the lucky one.
Interviewer: “It certainly sounds like you had a good time and you tell good stories
and thank you for coming in and talking to me today.”
Thank you thank you. 32:05
11
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_IAlvarez
Title
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Alvarez, Isabel "Lefty" (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Alvarez, Isabel
Description
An account of the resource
Isabel Alvarez was born in Havana, Cuba in 1933. She grew up in Havana and played baseball with the neighborhood kids and was also involved with other sports. In 1947, she pitched her first exhibition game in American baseball and was picked by the All American League and sponsored to come to the United States with three other Cubans to play baseball in 1949. She played pitcher for the Chicago Colleens from 1949 through the 1950 season. When the Chicago Colleens folded, she went on to play for the Fort Wayne Daisies during the 1951 and 1954 seasons. Upon getting her citizenship in 1953 she stayed in the United States permanently. During her six-year baseball career she also played utility outfielder and also played briefly with the Battle Creek Belles (1951); Kalamazoo Lassies (1953); and the Grand Rapids Chicks (1954).
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
Baseball players--Illinois
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-26
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1b64f55a7dbd7dc7175438b0a9709c80.mp4
865c0169efff1f1c763542b8b6293b15
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ef13599ed0c98ada1c77d1bd4a3b3787.pdf
634482ef9c7f81791b753a0c9a998049
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Lou Arnold
Interviewer: “Lou can you start out by telling us a little bit about yourself, for
instance, where and when were you born?”
I was born in Pawtucket Rhode Island in 1925-May 11, 1925.
Interviewer: “They have you in the book as being born in 1923?”
I mean 1923.
Interviewer: “Just checking on it. That will be the one time I can catch you up on
something probably. You were born in 1923 and did you grow up on Pawtucket or
did you grow up somewhere else?”
I’m the thirteenth child and that’s why my numbers thirteen on my uniform. I was born
in Rhode Island, Pawtucket and grew up in Rhode Island.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?”
My father, at one time, had a cemetery. I don’t know what you call it, but he took care of
it and people that came to be buried and my mother never worked. My father also taught
a wood working school for a while. 1:12
Interviewer: “Was he able to keep his job through the depression?”
No, as a matter of fact we lost our home during the depression. You know I was young
then and I had all the kids in the neighborhood come over and I said,” We got a red flag
on our house, we got a red flag on our house”. We didn’t know, my mother went to New
York and we had no idea and that’s what it was, they were auctioning it off—yeah, that’s
something to remember.
Interviewer: “Did you stay in Pawtucket and just live somewhere else?”
No, I stayed in Pawtucket and I played softball. I played softball for the “Opit Milk
Maids” and we won the championship in softball and we changed it to different names
like the “Townies” and different names, but they were all farm gals but myself. 1:59
Interviewer: “How did you hook up with them? How did you wind up playing for
them?”
They were playing at the ball park one night and we went to see them and my brother-in
law’s brother was there and he said, “Lou, you ought to get in and play ball with them”,
1
�and I said, “oh, I don’t know, I just pick-up”, so I went—not to the tryout, but to the
team, to try with the team and I played shortstop since the first time I went. 2:21
Interviewer: “All right, had you been playing a lot just around the neighborhood
before?”
No, not too much, but I had a brother who use to pitch to me and I played catch with my
brother, but that team—I think I was fourteen or fifteen when I started on that team and I
stayed with that team.
Interviewer: “You stayed with that team. Now did they pay you?”
No, it was just an amateur thing, but one thing we did—we played in Boston Garden
maybe every other Friday night and that’s something that—I don’t know of any other
team—Mary Pratt might have, I don’t know. We use to go to the Boston Garden on
Friday night. 3:09
Interviewer: “That’s an old indoor arena.”
Yes, that was a big deal to us you know to go.
Interviewer: “Would you get a crowd to watch you play?”
They had a pretty good crowd there, yeah.
Interviewer: So how was it exactly that you wind up joining the professional
baseball league?”
I was with the “Townies” then, and they were playing the sailors down at Newport and
they had a girl pitcher and the two women pitched against each other and we were there
and we played and had a good time and when we came out this man walked up and he
said, “hey Lou, how would you like to play professional baseball?” And I said, “Oh,
wonderful, yeah, yeah”. We had never known him, well, he asked myself and three other
girls, four of us. The other three went and they called me and said, “Oh Lou you should
come out, you’d love it”, but you know, at the time I had a boyfriend in the service and
stuff like that you know. 4:14 I hesitated and finally I said, “I think I’m going to go”.
Well, my mother was a little upset and my father was too, but anyway, I went and I
remember I took the train and went to Opa-locka, Florida. That’s where they had the
spring training and that’s where we had old barracks to stay in and all that. It was very
good and I don’t know if you saw the movie, but it was like in the movie, you get playing
a game with different people and all of a sudden the roster is up there and you go and
look at it and it’s sad—say you were next to me and I got on and you know we got to be
good friends playing and the girl next to me couldn’t make it, she didn’t make it and
she’s crying and I’m crying and I’m crying for her, but it was a wonderful, wonderful
experience. 5:12
Interviewer: “So you were trying out for which team?”
2
�They were going to pick for the teams and the “Blue Sox” picked me and I stayed with
them all the time.
Interviewer: “Is that the South Bend Blue Sox?”
Yes, the South Bend Blue Sox.
Interviewer: “At this time you said you had been a short stop.”
I almost flipped when I got out there and they had a man that worked with you on
pitching and he said, “We’re going to make a pitcher out of you”. At the time I had a
pretty good arm, you know a shortstop can throw them over pretty good and I think that’s
what made him think that I’d be a wonderful, wonderful pitcher. Well, I don’t think I
was a wonderful, wonderful pitcher, but you did as they said you know and the man
worked with me and everything a lot, so that’s how I got to pitch. 5:59 Never, never
played another position on a team, never got the chance.
Interviewer: “What they were doing with you is what they do with professional
male baseball players. They may start at one position, but then they said, “well, you
have the skills to go over here and that’s what we need”, so short stops can become
pitchers for the very reason that you did, they had good arms. See, you had a good
arm and you learned to pitch pretty well.”
I don’t feel I was a star or anything.
Interviewer: “Now, at the point when you joined the league, this was the point when
they had gone to overhand pitching. If they had been still been doing underhand or
sidearm, would you have done that?”
Oh I would have if they wanted me to, but I went out for shortstop you know. 6:47
Interviewer: “and when you were shortstop, the shortstops pretty much, they would
all be throwing overhand normally wouldn’t they? Throw fast.”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “That was a little more natural.”
In softball you have to throw that ball over there for shortstop.
Interviewer: “How was the game you were starting to play, how was that different
from the softball you had been playing back up in New England?”
I never played softball here. The year I came out in 1948 they went over to—
Interviewer: “What I’m asking is how was that baseball different from what you
had been doing in the amateur league?”
3
�Well, for one thing, the bases were farther apart and the pitching mound a little away too
and it was really exciting to be honest with you though I loved softball and it is hard to
pick between the two of them because I enjoyed myself at softball and I played every
single game and every single day that we played. 7:44
Interviewer: “Were you a little bit older than some of the other women?”
Yes, I was twenty-five, I think, when I went in or twenty-four or something like that. I
think it was twenty-five or twenty-six.
Interviewer: “Did that make you almost a mother figure for some of them? Would
you do things to help some of them adjust?”
Oh yes, yes, oh yes and I use to talk and sometimes we would have a girl keep score one
time back home and going to the gym and this girl said to me, “I never do anything but
score keeping”, and boy I really told that kid I said, “you know, if you didn’t keep their
score nobody would have their average, nobody would know what their hitting, you’re
just as important as the girl that gets the home runs”. That kid looked at me as if to say,
“are you crazy lady?” 8:46 I said, “I’m serious”, and it’s true, no matter what—even if
you carry the water you’re carrying it for someone to get a drink and it’s going to help
them to either get a base hit or strike somebody out or throw somebody out. No matter
what you do it’s professional. I couldn’t believe you know, I think the first time I made
sixty-five dollars a week and I left a job that I earned thirteen dollars and seventy-five
cents a week. I made more than some of the superintendents back home. It might sound
crazy, but that was a lot of money a week 9:26
Interviewer: “What did you do with your money?”
Well, I sent money home to my mom and a lot of them went to college, which was a very
smart thing. A lot of the ball players are college graduates, but I never went to college.
Interviewer: “That gets a little farther in the story. Do you remember making the
trip up to South Bend and arriving there and looking around?”
Well not too much, I remember I went on a train from Rhode Island to Florida and you
know never being out of Rhode Island, it was really, really “whew” I was afraid
somebody was going to grab me, I don’t know, but when you got there and you met all
the gals—you never knew what team you were going to be on and you didn’t even know
if you were going to be picked, but it was a wonderful time and what an experience for
kids from Rhode Island—we just never went—maybe Boston was the farthest we went, if
we went then. 10:37 What a thrill, just absolutely. You know sir I’m going to tell you—
ever since I played ball, from the first night I joined the South Bend Blue Sox, I never,
never in my life missed a night without thanking God for that opportunity. I’m eighty-six
today and that was a wonderful time of your life. It was the cleanest league, not that
there were any dirty leagues or anything, but that was one of the cleanest leagues you
would ever want to be in. It made you proud if you never got off the bench just to be
4
�there. The gals were just wonderful to me, absolutely wonderful and I was so scared, but
it didn’t take long for them to get with me and everything, you know. 11:27
Interviewer: “Now how much sort of support did they give you? Were they still
using chaperones, did they still have a lot of rules for you to follow?”
Oh yes, the chaperones were very, very good though. We had to be in by eleven, eleven
thirty depending on what kind of a game it was and you weren’t supposed to wear shorts
or slacks off the bus or anything like that. We wore shorts on the bus because it was so
warm, but we had skirts that we put on. You wore skirts almost all the time because you
couldn’t go out anyplace unless you kind of sneak out the window. If we went to the
park to have a hot dog roast or something we wore shorts or slacks, but that’s a little
different. 12:12
Interviewer: “Where did you live when you went up to South Bend?”
I lived at I’ll say South Bend; I lived there most of the time in houses, in homes. When
you went, somebody had to, if you were a rookie, somebody had to take you as their
roommate, one of the older ones, someone that wasn’t a rookie. That’s how you got into
a room with someone.
Interviewer: “Do you remember who your first roommate was?”
Her name was Thompson, but I can’t think—I think her last name was Thompson, but
I’m not sure. I wasn’t with her too long because they traded--they traded like crazy, but I
had wonderful roommates. 13:03 Wonderful roommates and landladies, they were
just—they would have pies made for us and lots—we were really treated wonderful. I
never—I worked at Bendix for thirty years and I never even said that I played ball. There
were maybe five of us that worked at Bendix and none of us mentioned playing ball and
when they found out that we played ball they went insane. “You never told us you
played for the South Bend Blue Sox” and stuff like that. 13:35 To us it was wonderful
and not private, but to me it meant so much and I never felt I was a star or anything, but I
use to pitch to the stars and they got better by hitting the ball. One gal came in and she
said, “Lou, I never get to do anything, sometimes I throw at the bat”, and I said, “If they
didn’t have you to throw to them, how are they going to keep their eye on the ball. You
mean a lot to them and don’t think that you don’t. Don’t feel that way.” That helped a
lot and who was I to tell them, that’s my opinion, I mean that’s how I felt and I got
wonderful, wonderful friends out of it. 14:26
Interviewer: “I will tell you, as we were organizing the set of interviews etc. and
planning to call even before we got here people said again and again, “You have to
talk to Lou Arnold”, which means those friends of yours are real friends and they
thought she was someone we should talk to.”
I’ll tell you, I get very, very touchy about it, but you can’t believe the friends I got out of
this league. You just can’t believe it and I feel that I could call any single ball player that
5
�I know and I’ve met off the ball field now or they could call me and they would give me
their last dime and I would give them my last dime. 15:11
Interviewer: “Now let’s shift gears a little bit and let’s go into the business of
playing ball. How many games would you play do you think in the space of a week
during the season?”
Oh, if I played one—I never played too many games, I don’t feel like I played too many
games, but I was always in the bullpen. Marty McManus used to let me go to the bullpen
every single night. He use to tell me to go there. Sometimes I would come out and they
would do all right and sometimes they wouldn’t do too good and they would put someone
else in.
Interviewer: “Did you start a lot of games?”
Oh yeah, I started some games and some I stayed in and some I had to come out. 15:57
Interviewer: “You did have a season when you went ten and two.”
Oh that was in fifty-one.
Interviewer: “How did that happen? Did everything just work right for you that
year?”
You know I had a one hitter in that year and Jean [Fout] had pitched a perfect game a day
or two before and I was going for a no hitter and this girl that got the hit—it was the
Texas league and you know what that is, but that team played behind me like they were
shot out of a cannon. They caught everything and stopped everything and threw
everybody out and all that, so it ended up a one hitter and I was so thrilled about it,
besides we had a wonderful, wonderful umpire, Barney Ross, and I was pitching to this
girl who wasn’t the best hitter and he called a strike a ball which meant a lot because we
would not had our chance to get this Texas league, so I walked up to the thing, of course
my catcher was yelling at him and I said, “Barney, I want to tell you something”, and he
said, “yes Lou”, and I said, “You are going blind.” He said, “Lou, I want to tell you
something, you go back to that mound and I’ll show you how blind I’m getting.” 17:14 I
think he gave me a break on a couple of them after that though.
Interviewer: “Now, in this league did you have a regular set of umpires?”
Yea, Gadget Ward and Barney Ross, those are the two I remember because we had them
the most and I can’t remember the ones out of town.
Interviewer: “So, there were umpires that lived near or in South Bend?”
Yes, they were both in South Bend and they were both good umpires, but Gadget, if you
said one thing, “boom”.
6
�Interviewer: “On the whole, do you think the players in your league were better
behaved than say our male baseball players in terms of arguing with the umpire or
challenging them?”
Oh yes, yes they were. Instead of giving certain signals to the crowd if they’re booing or
something, they never—no. 18:11
Interviewer: “Did you feel as if you had to be better behaved than the men?”
No, I don’t think any of us ever gave it a thought. I don’t think any of us ever gave that a
thought. You would be surprised at the women that came out, good living women. We
all wanted to win you know, we’d ride the other team, but I cannot say any bad things
about the women and not because I played with them because I was with the South Bend
Blue Sox and I never went to another team, but we met some gals after and we would go
and have something to eat, which was really against the rules, but the manager kind of
knew you know. 19:02 Maybe we would meet someone after the game and go and have
something to eat, but that’s all.
Interviewer: “Who was the manager while you were there?”
My favorite first manager was Marty McManus, the Red Sox, remember he had the Red
Sox? Then I had Dave Bancroft, then I had Jean Fout’s husband and I can’t think of his
name now, we won with him. Marty McManus, he was a sweetheart, oh, he was so good.
19:38
Interviewer: “Now, did you learn from the manager and from the coaches?”
Oh yeah, oh yeah, learn how lead off on the bases and stuff like that.
Interviewer: “Could they help you with your pitching?”
Oh yea, I had my own—not my own, but we had a pitching coach that worked with us
and I don’t even know his name now, but he was a nice guy.
Interviewer: “Do you know what kind of pitches you could throw?”
Drops and curves and changeups and today I can’t even pick up a pencil, but really it was
a---not I, but some of them would throw a double drop and double—Jean Fout, Jean Fout
to me was the greatest of great. I mean, even if she pitched a game and we had a double
header and someone was running, coach would say, “Jean, go in and play third base”,
that girl never, never said a word, never balked at all and went right in. 20:53
Interviewer: “when you were going good and pitching well in a game, were you
getting people out by changing speed and locations and fooling them, what were you
doing?”
7
�I don’t know, I don’t know what I did, but I had a little skill, but I didn’t have what the
others had and I’m not saying that trying to be nice, it’s true, I really don’t know, but I
was so thankful I was able to stay there.
Interviewer: “You mentioned, you started off by going down to their spring
training. Did you go down to Florida for spring training every year?” 21:32
No, the next year they started having it in South Bend and some of the team went to—
overseas, they went there for a while, I’m sure they told you about that.
Interviewer: “Some went to Cuba.”
Cuba, yes, and I’m glad I didn’t have to go there.
Interviewer: “What kind of fan support did you have? Did you have a lot of fans
coming to the games?”
Wonderful. I remember the first game, I was there and we worked out in the field to start
and we had the skirts on and I can still hear this guy up in the stands say, “Oh look at the
outfits, oh, oh, ladies, ladies”. I think about the third inning he couldn’t believe those
ladies slide and everything and he would come to every game, he was really impressed. I
can still hear him, he would say, “beeeutiful” when we made a nice play “beautiful”. It
had to change him because those women would slide and they come in and we called
them “strawberries” and they would have blood running down their legs and we would
stand in front of it and fan it when we were playing. The chaperones would put
methiolate on it. 22:54 They would wrap it up and they would go right back out and if
they had to slide again, they would slide.
Interviewer: “You were a pitcher and you probably didn’t have to slide much did
you?”
No, all I had to try to do is get to first base and sometimes I did on a walk, I don’t know.
I don’t remember much.
Interviewer: “Now, you were on the team when they won two championships, what
do you remember about Guy Kennedy? How did they do with championship series,
did they have play offs with a lot of teams or the two best teams or what?”
It starts with, I wish I could remember the name of it, but it starts with six teams, then
four teams would play and then it gets down to two and when it gets down to two, that’s
the big challenge and I think it was either three out of five or four out of seven. 23:54
Interviewer: “So it was a real series like a world series.”
Yes, it was a series and I’m trying to think of the name of it, but I can’t.
8
�Interviewer: “Now, one of those championship seasons you played short handed.
Can you explain a little bit why you didn’t have all of your players?”
Well, I really don’t know and you’ll probably hear this story from somebody else, but
this girl was an excellent second baseman—came in and it was close to the ninth inning
and we were leading, I think it was the ninth inning we were leading, and she sat down on
the bench and she took her shoes off. Well, the manager was out there and he saw her
take her shoes off and he said, “hey shorty I want you to run for second base”, and she
said, “take Betty Wagner, she can run as fast as I can”, and he said, “no, no, I said get in
and run”, and she said, “Betty can do it”, like this, he said, “you’re out, you don’t need to
come back”, so when he said that, three or four others said, “if you let her go, I’m going”,
so we ended up with seven, eight or nine players, but we had fifteen all the time to start.
25:18 It was a shame because they were all good ball players and they walked out.
Interviewer: “But you still managed to win the championship.”
Yea, and that was a big deal you know for everybody, that was neat.
Interviewer: “Now, over the time you were playing in South Bend and that’s 19481952, did the crowds eventually start to get smaller?”
In 1952 they started to get smaller because you didn’t have to have the gas tickets
anymore for gas. A lot of them would come in groups or by buses. One of our biggest
games was the fourth of July game and I think we had ten thousand that day and they
were sitting on the grass that went up like this and they were sitting on the grass out
there, but we had a pretty big crowd. 26:15
Interviewer: “You were talking about gas coupons, you mean gas rationing
ended?”
Yea, when gas was rationed and when the war was over they didn’t have to have
rationing and they could drive. A lot of them would come on the bus or they would come
in groups and a lot of them walked.
Interviewer: “do you think that television had something to do with it too? They
could stay home and watch something and not come out and watch you?”
Well I think truthfully, in the end, yes, television. Television didn’t really put us out, but
like you said, there were a lot of things they didn’t do during the war and that’s how the
league started. 27:12 You know, if you talk to the one in Grand Rapids, and a young
man interviewed her, she wrote an article that’s great about the beginning of it and how it
started and stuff.
Interviewer: “That’s why we’re here talking to you because this is part of the
Veterans History Project and we’re talking to people who can tell us about different
aspects of American life during wartime and things that happened because of it.”
9
�That’s what it was and that’s how it started because Wrigley wanted to do something
because so many young men were taken away for war.
Interviewer: “Now at the time that you were recruited to come and join this league,
had you ever heard of the league before? Did you know there were women baseball
players? 27:56
No, I never heard of it and that’s why that man came up to me in Newport and said, “hey
Lou, how would you like to professional baseball?” “Yeah, I’d love it”, kidding with him
and never knowing that man was serious and then he went to three others and I believed
it.
Interviewer: “At the time you joined the league or while you were in it, did you
think of yourselves and doing something maybe that was new for women to be doing
or significant or was it only later maybe?”
I wouldn’t say that any of us did. I don’t care what team it was or ladies in that league
that didn’t love the game and played for the love of the game. It’s something when you
play softball all your life and all of a sudden this baseball comes out, but I think they play
for the love of the game. 28:53 A lot of them, I can tell you when we worked at Bendix,
never, never did we mentioned that we played and when the people found out, lord a
mercy, they were shocked.
Interviewer: “Did they find out about this before or after the movie came out?”
Before the movie came out because they started putting write ups in the paper and that
and they read all the write ups, but by the time I was working—maybe it was after the
movie, I’m not sure.
Interviewer: “When did you retire from Bendix?”
In 1952.
Interviewer: “From Bendix, not from the Blue Sox.”
Well, I went to Bendix in 1952, after the league, after we finished the league. I went to
Bendix on October 6, 1952 because we had a chance of getting in there and then I retired
in 30, 30 and out. 29:56
Interviewer: “So you would have retired then in 1982.”
In 1982.
Interviewer: “Was it while you were still working at Bendix that they began to talk
to you about having played in the league or was it after you retired that they were
all paying attention to you?”
10
�It was after I retired from work. We worked at Bendix quite a while, six of us, maybe
eight and none of us ever mentioned that we played ball. It’s just something—you’re
proud, but I just never said anything.
Interviewer: “Now, when you look back at it now, do you think that maybe you
wound up doing something that was kind of important or that you were some of the
first women professional athletes in professional team sports in this country?”
30:46
You know, because everybody is telling you that—Now, I’m giving you my own
opinion, everybody is saying, do you? I just met a lady now and she said, “You mean
you played professional ball?” She was going to a wedding here and she said, “Oh, I’ve
got to congratulate you”, but I never thought I would see a women’s professional baseball
team and never thought I’d be on one, never and it was really, really exciting, but you
know you have to come home and do your wash and you lived in private homes, but the
people were wonderful to me. 31:28 They would make cookies for us and different
things and chicken.
Interviewer: “When you think back to that time and stuff, are there particular
events or things that happened to you that come back to you that you haven’t told
me about here yet?”
Well, I don’t know if you ever heard of—Oh God, I can’t remember his name—he use to
come to the ball games to the football games in an iron lung—Snite, Fred Snite Jr., his
father’s a multi millionaire and he use to bring Fred Snite to the football games in an
ambulance and they had the doors fixed so when you opened the doors it was all mirrored
so he could see the place. He’s in an iron lung, so we were coming home from Tampa,
after—we were there playing a game after we had our spring training, and this man came
up to our train, our particular train where most of the gals were, and he said, “Is there
anybody in here that sings Irish songs?” 32:35 None of us knew who he was, but the
girls said, “Lou, Lou”, so myself Jo Leonard and Slats Meier, I think, the three of us
went. We were walking through the train, we didn’t know who he was and he said, “My
son, my son would love to sing with you”, and I’m thinking a little kid like this, so we
went back and as we were going through this one train, it was full of oranges and
grapefruits and everything and we got to the last train and the last train had a bay
window, the whole back of it was a bay window and then and they had a railing like this,
it was gold, and there he was in the iron lung. 33:19 There was his wife and two
daughters there and a nurse and I was—I’d never seen anything like that and they said to
stand right beside of him, so I went over and I stood there and I said, “Are we going to
sing some Irish song?”, and he gasped yes because he couldn’t breath and we sang songs
until we were blue in the face. We just sang all the Irish songs we knew and we had a
wonderful time and they came out with cookies and ice cream for us, the people there.
That was an experience I’ll never forget and then his father came up and gave us oranges
and asked us if we wanted oranges or grapefruit. 33:59 That was so touching and so
thrilling and when I’d see him at the game, they would have that backed up and he could
see both teams.
11
�Interviewer: “So, he would come to your games too? You mentioned he went to the
Notre Dame football games.”
No, he could never get that thing in our games.
Interviewer: “But he watched the Notre Dame football games?”
Every—and his father’s got a beautiful building there dedicated to him, beautiful, Fred
Snite Jr.
Interviewer: “How did your own career end? Did you just decide to stop playing in
1952 or did they tell you were about done?”
Oh no, I had an application in for Bendix. Eddie DeLauria, who was the head of the
league for one time, was the manager of our team at one time, he said, “Why don’t you
put your name in for Bendix Lou? I think they’re going to be hiring”, so I went back
home and I got a telegram saying, “come, there’s a job for you at Bendix”, and that’s how
I got into Bendix, by playing ball and that’s another thing I thank god for every night is
Bendix. Very good money, very good insurance. 35:29
Interviewer: “Now, to look back on the whole thing now, how do you think that
whole time playing ball affected you? You told us a little bit about that. Did it
make you a different person? Did it change the course your life took?”
It never changed me a bit sir. I never ever had so many friends. When we had our first
reunion just another ball player, Shirley Stavroff, we’d sit in a chair, not like this chair,
and watch people come in and wonder who it was and we were hugging people we didn’t
even know, we thought it was a ball player. When we had our first—I think it was
sometime in the early eighties, I’m not sure just when it was, but it was in Chicago and it
was just fabulous and we use to wait a couple of years, but now we have them every year.
36:22 I wish I could explain the feeling when you see different ones and they say, “Oh,
Lou you’re getting thin or Lou you’re getting fat”, and stuff like that, but it’s true, I think
you could ask any of them—I feel I could ask any of them if I needed something and I
think they feel they could ask me if they needed something, if I had it or if they had it.
Interviewer: “One other thing that one of the other players had mentioned to me
about you and that was that you had helped some of them just learn some basic
manners and learn how to follow the rules. Could you talk a little bit about that?
What did you do for them?” 37:05
Well I—did you interview Sue Kidd?
Interviewer: “Yes.”
Well, Sue Kidd, I haven’t been down to her home, her father had the grocery store, the
post office and everything right in Arkansas, Choctaw Arkansas, and she came into the
league and she was only a kid and she would walk by or you’d give her something and
she never said please, thank you, excuse me, or anything and I thought, “How strange,
12
�that girl’s so—“, and we got to be pretty good friends and I said to her, “I want to tell you
something, It’s not going to cost you a cent, but I’m going to tell you something and you
better listen to me”, and she would say, “Yeah Lou, yeah Lou”, and I said, “You should
learn some manners because you’re such a nice person and a good person, manners
would really show what kind of a lady you are”. I don’t really work with her, but when
she started coming by me she would say, “Excuse me Lou “ and “thank you Lou”. She
caught on and she’s very, very polite now. 38:14 Very polite and I was being
interviewed someplace on the radio in Grand Rapids I think it was and she was too, the
two of us, So here we were and I got to interviewing and talking to the lady and waiting
for Sue and sue said, “You know, I didn’t even know how to say excuse me”, and I
almost fell off the chair and she said, “That lady there taught me manners”, and I’m
sitting on the chair thinking, “Oh Sue dear, please”, but she has never forgotten that and
she has thanked me at different times and I told her, “I’m proud of you Sue”. She was
just a hick from the sticks. When she said that I thought I would fall out of the chair, but
we’re good friends, very good friends. 39:10
Interviewer. “Well, I knew to ask that because she told me about it, so I thought I
would get your side.”
She said that to you?
Interviewer: “Yes, that’s why I’m asking for your side.”
I almost didn’t tell you to be honest with you. I thought, “I don’t want to mention Sue
like that”.
Interviewer: “Sue’s very grateful that you did it and she put that on record herself,
so that just supports what you had to say about what a good bunch of people this
is.”
Yeah, they were, they were and once and a while we would go over to the boat house ,
boat club I guess and it was right across the river from our ball park and some would play
the slot machine and we’d all jitterbug and have a swell time, but I really feel the
manager knew it, but we always had to get back at a certain time you know. I think he
really knew it, but I don’t know for sure. There were a lot of little things we did do, we
weren’t “holier than thow” you know like picking up the gals at the hotel so they could
come to the boat club and dance or have a few beers or something you know. There
really wasn’t much drinking in the league. Not much that I know of, of course the team I
was on there wasn’t. Let me see if there’s any other interesting—It was just—like now,
not because I’m being interviewed, I don’t care if you don’t ever have to use it, to be
honest with you that isn’t the point. I think it’s nice of you to ask me and it was nice of
Dolly to tell you to ask me, but really makes me feel good to tell you what a wonderful
league it was and it’s still a league to all of us you know. 41:06
Interviewer: “We’ve spent a fair amount of time with your group here just this
week doing quite a few interviews and we have to agree with you that it really is a
13
�remarkable bunch of people, so I would like to thank you for taking a little time
today to come and tell me about it.”
Well, thank you for asking me, but I’m telling you and you found out for yourself, some
of them are great, great people. 41:30
Interviewer: “that’s right.”
14
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_LArnold
Title
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Arnold, Lou (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Arnold, Lou
Description
An account of the resource
Lou Arnold was born in Pawtucket, Rhode Island in 1925. She grew up in Pawtucket and played softball with her brother and eventually joined an amateur league where she played for a few teams. After playing a game with a rival team in Newport she was invited to play for the All American League. Arnold played from 1948 to 1952 for the South Bend Blue Sox as a pitcher. One of her baseball highlights came during the 1951 season when she pitched a ten and two record and led her team to the championship that year.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Indiana
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-25
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d66a0a1eda90e49fd1f201283228171.pdf
7b93058f6b8cd3500d962902a9b038ca
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mrs. Noyes [Eileen] Avery
Interviewed on October 4, 1971
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #28 (2:00:00)
Biographical Information
Mrs. Avery, born Evelyn Leonard on 28 February 1883 in Grand Rapids was the daughter of
Frank E. Leonard and Sarah E. “Sadie” Pierce. Evelyn “Eileen” was married on 5 June 1907 in
Grand Rapids to Noyes L. Avery. Mrs. Avery died on 4 August 1972 in her home on Plymouth
Road in East Grand Rapids. Mr. Avery had preceded her in death on 4 July 1947. They were
both interred at Fulton Street Cemetery in Grand Rapids.
Eileen‟s father, Frank E. Leonard was born on 8 April 1855 in Grand Rapids. He died on 25
April 1925 and was buried in Fulton Street Cemetery. He married Sarah E. “Sadie” Pierce on 12
October 1881 in Grand Rapids. Sarah was born in July 1859 and died at her home in East Grand
Rapids on 7 December 1950.
Noyes L. Avery was born in Grand Rapids on 18 October 1881 and was the son of Noyes
Frederick Avery and Anna Haley Barstow. Noyes F. Avery was born on 15 January 1855 in
Grand Rapids. He died on 19 November 1925. Anna (Barstow) Avery was born on 11 September
1858 in Paris Township (now Kentwood). She died on 1 September 1921 in Grand Rapids. The
Averys are buried in Fulton Street Cemetery.
___________
Interviewer: This interview with Mrs. Noyes Avery was conducted October 4, 1971. OK, we
can start.
Mrs. Avery: I‟m, I‟m a Leonard, and I‟m also an Avery, I‟m probably the only one, that‟s a
good Avery. The Averys came here in I would say eighteen forty. And you see Grand Rapids
was not started until, I mean Louis Campau didn‟t come until eighteen twenty-six. And no that
was only fourteen years when the Averys, and the Barstow family came and that‟s Mrs. Avery‟s,
my mother-in-law‟s name. And her name was Anna Barstow. I don‟t know what to say anything
here until I know what I‟m going to say…. (Voice in background: “you go on”) And, they came
also at that time.
Interviewer: Where did, where did the Averys come from?
Mrs. Avery: The Averys came from Salem, Massachusetts.
Interviewer: Do you know the reason they moved from there to Grand Rapids?
�2
Mrs. Avery: I should but, people came here at that time, came to Michigan at that time and I
suppose that‟s why the Leonard family came at that time, too. (It was) about eighteen forty,
somewhere in there. Well, the Averys and Barstows were very important people here and they
were friends of the Lowes, the Blodgetts. (Voice in background: “Let me think of something”)
Interviewer: Well, you don‟t remember any particular reason why the, Averys and the Leonards
came to Grand Rapids? Were they, what kind of business were they in when they first came?
Mrs. Avery: I think Mr. Avery may have been in the real-estate business.
Interviewer: I interviewed a fellow the other day, John Cary, and he told me that when his, I
believe it was his father or grandfather, first came to Grand Rapids he bought five acres of land
down approximately in the area of the old Union Depot was.
Mrs. Avery: Yes.
Interviewer: And he bought that from the Averys, bought five acres of land from them.
Mrs. Avery: Well, now that probably was why Grandfather Avery came here. I never looked that
up. This is interesting. And father Avery was born in eighteen fifty-five. And, my father who
was Frank Leonard, Frank E. Leonard, was born in eighteen fifty-five. But Heman Leonard, that
was his father, came also in about eighteen forty. So that seemed to be the time that they were
settling Michigan.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. Avery: Then there was a time, you know, when they were settling Ohio. And then, there
was a time when they were settling other states. But this is Michigan.
Interviewer: Yes. Where did your family live when you were a child?
Mrs. .Avery: They lived on Prospect Street. Oh, in those days, you didn‟t have a house when you
were married. You boarded with someone. And, Mr. and Mrs. Avery boarded with someone on
Bostwick Street. There was a rooming house up there. They boarded there. My father and mother
when they were married, boarded with the Charles Leonards on the corner of Oakes and
Sheldon, in a house, I think in that, where Ferguson [Hospital] is now. And they lived there quite
a long time. That‟s Mrs. Judd‟s grandfather too, that Leonard. She and I are Leonards.
Interviewer: What relation, how, how are you and Mrs. Judd related, exactly?
Mrs. Avery: Charles Leonard had a son, Harry Leonard, and Harry is the father of Mrs. Judd.
My father was younger and he was Frank, Frank E. and I‟m his daughter.
Interviewer: So then you‟re ….
Mrs. Avery: She and I are cousins.
�3
Interviewer: Well, when your parents moved out of the boardinghouse and bought a home of
their own, where, where did they live?
Mrs. Avery: They lived on Prospect. It‟s the third house from Wealthy, south on Prospect. It‟s
still there. There‟s still a vacant lot by it and the house is still there. And, my mother sold it in
nineteen twenty-six, that‟s quite a long time ago, too. Well….
Interviewer: What was it like growing up in the neighborhood?
Mrs. Avery: Oh, you knew everybody. And everybody would stop for you in the morning to go
to school. School was just one block west. It‟s the Lafayette Street School now. It used to be
Wealthy Street School. And, they‟d all stop. The thing I remember most about all this is our
wonderful games we used to have after dinner. We played hide-n-seek, over the whole block. All
the neighbors, there were forty children in our block. That is four sides of the block. That‟s a lot.
Interviewer: Yes, it sure is.
Mrs. Avery: The Penneys lived there. They were a well known family. The Halls lived there.
They were a well known family. Then on our street, the Stevens‟ lived there. They were a well
known family, across the street from us. Well, we all went to school together. We didn‟t have
any problems at all. Just came home from school and played.
Interviewer: When you got to be a little older was there a lot of entertaining?
Mrs. Avery: Oh sure, you mean when I was in high school? Oh yes, we used to have parties. Of
course they were just kid parties. We‟d go at eight o‟clock; we didn‟t have dinner or anything.
We‟d go at eight o‟clock and come home at ten, and our fathers would come after us. Heavens,
we never went anywhere with a boy, whoever heard of such a thing.
Interviewer: Going out alone with a boy?
Mrs. Avery: Yes, there wasn‟t any reason for it except you just didn‟t do it. Your father went
after you.
Interviewer: Was that before the automobile?
Mrs. Avery: That was before the automobile. When the automobile came in, Mr. Avery, my
father-in-law had a car. I can‟t remember, I could tell you look it up probably and find out,
because I used to be taken out for rides by Noyes Avery. And then he got a White Steamer, later.
And we went way down to Gun Lake and we started at six in the morning, and of course that was
the steam engine and every time we came to a farm he‟d get out with his rubber pail and fill ….
What‟s that you fill?
Interviewer: I am not sure, I‟m….
�4
Mrs. Avery: With steam.
Interviewer: The boiler?
Mrs. Avery: The boiler. And so we didn‟t run out of steam. And then you would run, when you
saw a hill coming you‟d go awfully fast down that hill. Heaven knows how fast, maybe twenty
miles an hour. And then you got enough steam to go up a hill. And then we came home and I
remember my mother-in-law. She said she put a five dollar bill on my picture in Noyes room so
he‟d have enough money for the day. That‟s my mother-in-law.
Interviewer: Well, was your husband, did he live in the same neighborhood as you did?
Mrs. Avery: No, they lived out you know, where the Fanatorium is?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. Avery: They have a beautiful house down there. Just a beautiful house, wasn‟t a mansion, it
was just a home. And it had been built by somebody Taylor. And the Grandfather Avery had
bought it and they lived there. And it had a barn for the horses they would have had at that time,
but not in my time. They had this lovely automobile, about this long. Can you think of something
else?
Interviewer: How did you meet your husband?
Mrs. Avery: I just saw him on the street one day walking a girl home, in high school. I can
remember very well, I thought how handsome he was. He was. And that‟s all. Then you just met
him at dancing school probably, Saint Cecilia Dancing School. We all went to dancing school
Saturday afternoons. When we were young, we went to the two o‟clock class, Calla Travis. And
when we got way up to seventeen or so, then we went to the four o‟clock class. We didn‟t have
to get home until after six.
Interviewer: What kind of dancing was taught at that school?
Mrs. Avery: Oh, it was the two-step, the waltz, the square dances.
Interviewer: When did, when would you have use for a square dance?
Mrs. Avery: I don‟t know. I don‟t remember any, doing it outside dancing school. But we knew
how to do it. And, we‟d go to dancing school out of town someplace and we‟d dance. [In] town
when there‟s no way of getting out except by train. Everything is in town. We had a big crowd of
young people.
Interviewer: When you got older and you got married, when did you get married?
Mrs. Avery: Nineteen oh seven
�5
Interviewer: Nineteen oh seven?
Mrs. Avery: Yes.
Interviewer: Well, after you were married in the entertaining among married people? What kind,
how was the entertaining done?
Mrs. Avery: Well, when we got married we‟d have seven o‟clock dinner, if it was a dress-up
one. Otherwise, I think it would be about six thirty and you‟d have four courses, had to have four
courses. You see I lived on Barclay Street, near John Street, you know where that is?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. Avery: And there was a house down there, it‟s now a parking lot. That‟s where my husband
and his two brothers were born. Because Father and Mother Avery evidently bought that house
after they got through their boarding house, and lived there. That was forty-seven Barclay. And
then you know all about the Hazeltine family?
Interviewer: No.
Mrs. Avery: No? I think you ought to find out something about these, these, great families. The
O‟Briens?
Interviewer: That‟s why, that‟s why we interview, we‟re doing these interviews, to find out about
them because they‟re people today that are my age for example, you know you hear those names
mentioned occasionally.
Mrs. Avery: Yes
Interviewer: But you don‟t know what they‟re referring to or who they‟re referring to. What
those people are like, what they did in the town and so on. That‟s why, doing these interviews to
find out about that and make a record of it.
Mrs. Avery: Mr. O‟Brien. I‟m talking about John Street. The Hazeltines lived in the middle of
John Street. The house is still there, on the north side of the street. And up on Lafayette, about a
half block away, Mr. and Mrs. O‟Brien lived. And when the Hazeltine girl, who was a great
friend of mine, Fanny Hazeltine, and I graduated from Vassar College, Mr. O‟Brien, was made
the ambassador, appointed to Japan. And they took Fanny along. They were neighbors, within
half a block of each other. And they went and she went with them and stayed a year, in
diplomatic, and that was pretty great in those days, my goodness. So the O‟Brien family you
should know about. The Hazeltine family you should know about.
Interviewer: Who was Mr. Holt?
�6
Mrs. Avery: Well, he lived right up there on the hill, too. Up, up on Lafayette, too. He had
daughters. Well he was of the same generation that Mr. and Mrs. O‟Brien, Mr. and Mrs.
Hazeltine. Mr. Holt and their girls were younger than I, but in the same crowd. We were all in
one big crowd. When we‟d have a party at Saint Cecelia, it would be a big party because we
knew everybody; we all knew everybody.
Interviewer: I understand that Mr. Holt was, the…
Mrs. Avery: Founder of the Kent County Country Club?
Interviewer: I also understand that he was somewhat of a social arbitrator in the city. That he
was the one who decided, who was in and was out. Is this right?
Mrs. Avery: Well, I wouldn‟t know because I was too young to make any difference. I was in as
far as that went. Not because of my family though. Just because of me I guess.
Interviewer: OK.
Mrs. .Avery: I mean my family was just a good family, the Leonards. And of course my father,
now we‟re back to Leonard, my grandfather, his father, Heman Leonard came and I think it was
about the same time, eighteen forty. You see, nothing happened here until eighteen twenty-six
when Louis Campau came and everything grew from there. He started a grocery store; you know
where Houseman‟s is?
Interviewer: OK.
Mrs. Avery: Well in that corner, and he was connected like almost all grocers were with the
A&P coffee, tea and then if you bought that you got a saucer; you know they still do that, or a
plate. And he was so successful with his china that he went into the china business. And my
father had, when he, when he got to the, when his father died, china store Dick Zeyert and Sons.
And that was the important store. You got your silver and glass there on the first floor, china on
the second floor, hardware on the third floor, and toys on the fourth floor. Everybody went there
for all those things. I mean it was generally, I can remember my, one time, my father saying that
he always, when he sent a set of china which was a barrel of china, out I mean you had twelve of
everything, that, if they didn‟t keep it, it might be a dozen plates, if they didn‟t keep it they
brought it back, it was always, they always smelled of it, because if it has soap-suds on it, you
knew that they borrowed it from the store long enough to have a party. Well, that‟s an amusing
little bit isn‟t it?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. Avery: But they had beautiful china, the kind that Rood has now only even better. My
father went to Europe to buy it. He was connected with a great big firm in New York and he
went down there and bought. He spent three or four weeks every spring there, buying toys, china,
�7
glass, silver. So you can see it was a very important store and the toy department they always had
Santa Claus. He was in the window. And then I got old enough finally, to be a cash girl in the toy
department and I‟d run back and forth to the office with money and things and that would be
done up. Goodness that was important, Christmas time, the few days before Christmas. And then
I got so old that I could be clerk. Boy, was that exciting? That is what you want to know.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. Avery: Folklore.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. Avery: Then of course, everybody came down there and you know everybody who came in
almost. You knew people. You weren‟t intimate friends with them but you knew people. What‟s
wrong with them in every way. There wasn‟t just parties; it wasn‟t just social, because we
couldn‟t have parties all the time. We had a lot of parties. But you don‟t remember the parties;
you remember the fun you had. You hide and seek after dinner, and then my mother calling
“Eileeeeeen” till I got home. Eight o‟clock. Well, that‟s when you went to bed. And there wasn‟t
any of this restlessness. Goodness we had everything we needed and we had fun and friends. It
was a great life. It really was.
Interviewer: What, what was society based on in those days do you think? If you were, assume
that I‟m asking you to define how the society was set up, how did one become a member of
society?
Mrs. Avery: I don‟t know. You just got to know somebody and were asked in, it‟s asked that‟s
all. There wasn‟t any caste about it.
Interviewer: It wasn‟t based on money then?
Mrs. Avery: No. Not at all, not at all. It was on friendship.
Interviewer: Did people that lived in the Hill area, did they have, well when they had parties, for
example did they invite people over that lived on the west side of town?
Mrs. Avery: No, because they weren‟t their friends. They weren‟t their friends.
Interviewer: In other words there…
Mrs. Avery: There wasn‟t a caste about it but it was just that your friends over here in the
neighborhood, and you had to walk for goodness sakes; you had no way of transportation. No
busing. Streetcars, yes. You went everywhere on the streetcar. Oh, we went to the lake at
Ramona, we only called it the Lake. We went to the shows every week; our beaus would take us
to the shows. Beaus were just boyfriends. There was a very little romance about our high school
days. I can remember. I mean it was all friendship and fun. Sound great?
�8
Interviewer: Well, it‟s kind of hard for me to imagine I mean, high school today so much
different than, just mere friendship. Was at adult parties, was liquor…?
Mrs. Avery: No liquor, absolutely not.
Interviewer: Why was that?
Mrs. Avery: Well, it just wasn‟t done.
Interviewer: When did it, when did liquor be, start becoming part of parties?
Mrs. Avery: Oh, oh I don‟t know. Not while we lived over there. We moved from that house we
built to the corner. And, we came out here in nineteen fifteen. Nobody served liquor at all.
Interviewer: You said we came out here, where‟s here?
Mrs. Avery: I say we built that house.
Interviewer: The one that‟s on Lake Drive?
Mrs. Avery: Yes. That big white house and we moved in nineteen fifteen. No, we never thought
of it. It just wasn‟t done. We didn‟t even have wine. It just wasn‟t thought of. It just wasn‟t done.
Well, it probably was in some circles but not in ours. I mean we went with everybody else but
there may have been some people who like Lowes and Blodgetts who may have served wine. I
wouldn‟t know. But we never did in our household. And mother and father never did. It‟s just
one of those things that wasn‟t done.
Interviewer: OK.
Mrs. Avery: It‟s like kissing a girl before you‟re engaged. It just wasn‟t done. Or hand-holding, it
just wasn‟t done. Nobody held your hand. You wouldn‟t think of walking down the street with
somebody holding your hand. Goodness.
Interviewer: Times have changed.
Mrs. Avery: I, we used to have lovely hayrides. We‟d go way out to Cascade and have supper
and come back. On the hayride, a boy put his arm around me and I didn‟t speak to him for a year.
A whole year. I wasn‟t any different from rest of the girls. It just wasn‟t done. There‟re certain
things that your generation doesn‟t do. I don‟t know whether there is or not.
Interviewer: I can‟t think of anything. I‟m going to turn the tape over; it‟s almost done here…
Yes, when did the talk about prohibition first start? When, can you first remember hearing talk
about prohibition?
Mrs. Avery: Oh, I don‟t because there wasn‟t any point in it. There was never any reason for it,
for us. We‟d never had anything to drink.
�9
Interviewer: How old were you when you took your first drink?
Mrs. Avery: Oh, long time ago, I guess. But we didn‟t have it in our house over there. My
husband died in forty-seven. Oh, I suppose that, I don‟t know „cause we certainly weren‟t having
any whiskey at that time. I mean not how, you know, cocktails, the way we have it now.
Interviewer: OK. Do you drink cocktails now?
Mrs. Avery: Oh sure, just like everybody else.
Interviewer: Well what about the, was this just, you said that you and your husband never had it
in the house for example but what, was there somewhat of a double standard? I mean, was it just
the women that didn‟t drink or was it also the men? I mean for example, were there saloons
downtown where the men could go for lunch and so on?
Mrs. Avery: Yes.
Interviewer: And they‟d drink at lunch?
Mrs. Avery: I don‟t know.
Interviewer: Never asked?
Mrs. Avery: Not my husband.
Interviewer: Ok.
Mrs. Avery: It was one of those things that wasn‟t done. When I say that I mean it, just that way.
Interviewer: When you built that house across the street were there any of these other houses
here?
Mrs. Avery: One. One down the street on this side and one being built on the other side.
Otherwise it was all woods like this over here.
Interviewer: Ok. Now in nineteen fifteen you got back and forth to downtown in an automobile
didn‟t you?
Mrs. Avery: Yes, by then, we had an automobile. We had an old Tin Lizzy and of course no
starter on it. So we left it up on John Street which is a steep hill. Parked it John Street and we‟d
walk over and get it and let it run down the hill to start. When I came out here every day to watch
them building the house, the men would always start it up for me. I never tried to, it was too
hard.
Interviewer: Why did, for example, why did you and your husband move away from downtown
out to here?
�10
Mrs. Avery: Oh, we thought it would be nice to be out here. I lived on Prospect and I used to
walk out by myself often. And I liked that corner. Well, we decided that, that downtown was no
place to bring up children.
Interviewer: Who was Edmond Lowe, or Edward Lowe? Who was he, where did he come from?
Mrs. Avery: Well he came from the east I think, I never knew where he came from, I never was
curious I suppose, and he was a very important person. A very nice gentleman. And Mr. Blodgett
we knew very well. He was, and they built that house out here on Robinson Road, that‟s now
Aquinas College—beautiful house. Now if we were asked there for dinner, which we might
have been, I don‟t remember, they wouldn‟t serve any liquor. You were invited for seven
o‟clock. Got there and you sat down at the table at seven o‟clock. That was what parties were
like then. Then they‟d go home at ten or eleven o‟clock. They didn‟t play cards in the evening.
Now I‟m speaking of the people that I knew. I‟m not speaking of everybody, I don‟t if
everybody… But we didn‟t play cards. My husband never played cards.
Interviewer: What would you do after, after you finished eating?
Mrs. Avery: Oh, you‟d sit around and visit. First of all the men would sit at the table, or maybe
that‟s when they had some wine, I don‟t know. But they‟d sit at the table and then they‟d come
out with the ladies.
Interviewer: What, the ladies would retire to another room?
Mrs. Avery: Yes.
Interviewer: When did that, thinking back, when do you think that that kind of living, that kind
of society began to change?
Mrs. Avery: Well, I don‟t, I was trying to place it over there in that house. Cause we never had
cocktail parties over there. And that was in nineteen fifty when I left there. I mean, when my
husband was living. My daughter had a beau, who stayed with us, he lived in Cleveland. She
married him. And he was an older person. He was twenty-five years older than… And, he had
some whisky and in the bathroom, so he may have had some. But we didn‟t serve it. They were
married in thirty-five, so it must have been since then. And I don‟t think they ever had any
cocktail parties like, like we have now. I‟m sure they didn‟t.
Interviewer: Was there any kind of event, anything what, when did society begin to change,
when did that style of living and the closeness of the neighborhood that you experienced?
Mrs. Avery: Oh. As you got away from it, you didn‟t have neighbors. You see down, down
where I lived and where Averys lived they knew all the people around. Mrs. Warner we‟ve just
been talking to, lived across from the Avery‟s house, exactly across and she married and we
�11
never seemed to know her. We were too far to walk. Nobody had two cars in a family at that
time.
Interviewer: So what, what started bringing that style of living, living to an end was the
dispersal of people?
Mrs. Avery: That‟s right. Because, now in the Hill District, they all knew each other and on
Lafayette and down John Street where the Hazeltines lived. They all knew each other. The Holts
are down there, Campau lived there.
Interviewer: This morning talking to a…….Pardon?
Mrs. Avery: No. Huguenots, that‟s not their name, oh you know who I mean [Hugharts]. Lived
on the corner across from the City Club in that corner brick house. Right across, up Fulton Street.
The people knew each other on Fulton Street. The Gays lived up there and he started Berkey and
Gay. I should think that would be a good place for you to start, too. Berkey and Gay and I
suppose Mrs. Judd told you about the refrigerator company...
Interviewer: Ok.
Mrs. Avery: …Uncle Charlie Leonard started? He, Uncle Charlie Leonard ran the refrigerator
factory and my father ran the store. Do you get a picture of I‟ve, I have given you a picture at
all?
Interviewer: Yes, fine we‟ll finish there then.
INDEX
A
Aquinas College · 10
Avery Family · 1, 2, 5, 11
Avery, Grandfather · 2, 4
Avery, Mr. · 4
Avery, Noyes · 1, 4
B
Barstow , Anna · 1
Barstow Family · 2
Berkey and Gay · 12
Blodgett Family · 2, 9
Blodgett, Mr. · 10
C
Campau, Louis · 1, 7
Cary, John · 2
F
Fanatorium · 4
G
Gun Lake · 4
�12
H
O’Brien, Mrs. · 6
Hall Family · 3
Hazeltine Family · 5, 6, 11
Hazeltine, Fanny · 6
Hazeltine, Mr. and Mrs. · 6
Holt, Mr. · 6
Hughart Family · 11
P
J
Ramona Park · 8
Rood · 7
Penney Family · 3
R
Judd, Mrs. · 3, 12
S
K
Kent County Country Club · 6
Saint Cecelia · 6
Saint Cecilia Dancing School · 4
Salem, Massachusetts · 2
Stevens Family · 3
L
Lafayette Street School · 3
Leonard Family · 2, 3, 6
Leonard, Charles · 3
Leonard, Charlie · 12
Leonard, Frank · 2
Leonard, Frank E. · 1, 2, 3
Leonard, Harry · 3
Leonard, Heman · 2, 6
Lowe Family · 2, 9
Lowe, Edward · 10
O
O’Brien Family · 5
O’Brien, Mr. · 6
T
Travis, Calla · 5
U
Union Depot · 2
W
Warner, Mrs. · 11
Wealthy Street School · 3
White Steamer · 4
Women's City Club · 11
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e3ef78f9df73fc48c40600c03abe2041.mp3
12eda69efa08d5d26b2080217c1ab727
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Title
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
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Various
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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eng
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RHC-23
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1971 - 1977
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RHC-23_28Avery
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Avery, Evelyn
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Avery, Evelyn
Description
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Evelyn Leonard was born in Grand Rapids in 1883 and grew up on Prospect Street. Evelyn (Eileen) was the daughter of the inventor of the refrigerator, Frank E. Leonard. Leonard was a Vassar graduate and married Noyes L. Avery in 1907. She was president of both the Women's City Club and Women's University Club in Grand Rapids. Mrs. Avery died on August 4, 1972.
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Text
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application/pdf
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Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
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1971
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ef0a905ea534573d5cdb66ef520c62c.pdf
1a530d32e0bfc90a215cd576ec84ae2a
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mary Baloyan
Interviewed on November 13, 1974
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #44 (1:10:47)
Biographical Information
Mary Baloyan was born 13 October 1899 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She was the daughter of
Martin (Mardiros) A. Baloyan and Nouvart Kurkjian who were married in 1897. Martin was
born in Palu, Armenia (now Turkey) in 1868 and died 6 January 1931 in Grand Rapids at his
home at 639 Cherry Street SE. Mrs. Nouvart Baloyan was born 3 December 1877 in Palu,
Armenia (now Turkey). She survived her husband and died 7 March 1971 at Blodgett Hospital.
Mary Baloyan died at Pilgrim Manor in Grand Rapids 21 January 1984 at the age of 84. The
Baloyan family plot is in Greenwood Cemetery.
___________
Interviewer: This recording is made on November 13, 1974 at Pilgrim Manor on East Leonard,
in the apartment of Miss Baloyan who is a lifelong resident of Grand Rapids. I’m now going to
ask Miss Baloyan to tell about her family, her background and her early years as she recalls them
in Grand Rapids.
Miss Baloyan: Thank you. I am very proud to be able to talk on this subject because I’m so
proud of the accomplishments of my parents and other relatives. My parents came to this country
in 1897 from what was referred to as Old Armenia. I have seen their passport and it interested
me at the time that they could leave the country but could never return. When some years later I
took a trip abroad, my relatives were divided on the subject of whether I should revisit that part
of the world or not. Since some thought it might be dangerous. My father always used to say,
there must be great wealth and resources buried in the mountains of that area since so many
Armenians buried their wealth rather than let the enemy Turks take it. My parents had to leave
everything they possessed where they had come from, and these days it’s ironic that so many
people ask for a hand out or easy access to a living where as I know from firsthand experience
that my parents and family had to start with nothing, worked hard and availed themselves to the
opportunities of this country. In time, they had three children. My brother was the first Armenian
born in Grand Rapids, I was the first Armenian girl born in Grand Rapids and all three of us
including, Alfred, my older brother. Alexi, my younger sister who eventually went into interior
decorating, and I a middle child. All of us were given outstanding educations and special types of
instruction such as in music, dancing, theatre training, interior decoration and my parents too
took an active participation in so much of the civic life.
�2
Interviewer: I just want to interrupt you a moment and ask, why did your parents happen to
choose Grand Rapids? Was there any particular reason?
Miss Baloyan: Yes, indeed. My grandfather, who had come to New York in 1890, which is my
maternal grandfather, was a steel cabinet maker and as he attempted to work in his craft in New
York, he was told he should be in Grand Rapids where the furniture industry was flourishing,
and specifically, should be with John Widdicombe. He became the first Grand Rapids settler
when he had promised Mr. Widdicombe that if he went into his employ he would never leave
him. Widdicombe began taking an interest in him and a very old-fashioned and charming kind
of loyalty came about because it was, in time when Grandfather wanted to bring his wife and
grown up children to this city to join him, it included my maternal grandmother, my parents,
newly married the year before, and a couple of the aunts and an uncle who came to be known
locally as Armen Kurkjian. They came to Grand Rapids, Mr. Widdicombe had been instrumental
in finding a home for Steven’s family to come too and it was in that home that my brother and I
were later born. In time….
Interviewer: Where was that, Miss Baloyan?
Miss Baloyan: Where?
Interviewer: Where was that?
Miss Baloyan: On Fifth Street, on the west side at that time, not too far from Grandfather’s place
of employment, at that time. And so we three children grew up, on the west side, until I
graduated from the University of Michigan, some years later.
Interviewer: Could we back up just for a moment, I’d like you to describe your relationship to
Mr. Armen Kurkjian whom I, whom I knew and rather well, because of my family’s early
association with Fountain Street Church.
Miss Baloyan: Yes, Uncle Armen had come to this country as a boy of 14.
Interviewer: He was your mother’s brother?
Miss Baloyan: He was my mother’s brother. He brought certain old-fashioned principles to this
country with him. Such as the belief that young people shouldn’t smoke and other principles that
he sometimes got laughed at. But he used to retain a very lofty kind of set of principles.
Eventually as various members of the family joined local organizations, he got quite a good
education partly through their encouragement of those who became interested in him. He met at
the University of Michigan, eventually, a man named Melvin Baldwin, who became his college
room-mate. They became very good friends. My uncle was in civil engineering and some years
later, came to Grand Rapids. It must have been mechanical engineering, because he went into
Oliver Machinery Company in which Mr. Melvin Baldwin’s family and the Tuthills had been
very active. My uncle was, for many years, their sales manager and at one time, opened an office
�3
in Saint Louis, Missouri for them. He eventually met, married the woman who left Grand
Rapids as his secretary, whose maiden name was Elvestra Wurzburg and who became known as
my uncle Sid did for her philanthropic work in the city. Both of them interested in both Fountain
Street Church and crippled children’s work, Rotary Rehabilitation work. In the mean time my
father opened an Oriental restaurant on East Fulton Street and an art goods shop, a block east of
there also on East Fulton. They were quite, recognized as quality shops and in the summer-time
when his children had vacation from school, he came to open summer-time resort branches in
such places as Grand Haven or Muskegon, had even gone as far away as Cleveland, Ohio,
Kalamazoo and Benton Harbor. However his primary interest was rugs and related art objects.
My mother took a great interest in music, interpreting for less fortunate Armenians and in
education her children. She herself joined the Lady’s Literary Club, eventually Women’s City
Club and other broadening influences. She took a very active interest in church work. In this
particular branch of the family attended Saint Mark’s Episcopal Church where I have been a
member now fifty eight years. It has made a great many fine friendships for us among other
values. For instance, through the work of my family, my sister and brother also went into related
fields. Through the work of my family, we came to meet people in the various arts, so then we
began taking an active interest. Eventually, I was encouraged to go into Civic Theatre work
where I went on a board, worked in that area for twenty years, and became vice-president.
Through our music lessons we became interested in concerts and help local concert campaigns.
Also I became interested, after many years later, after mother’s death, in establishing some music
scholarships on a college level for Interlochen in memory of my mother. There are also a
memoriam of this at St. Mark’s church in her memory because while she was choir mother there,
it was the consuming interest that meant a great deal to her. The other arts were not neglected.
We had an interest in all of them. I eventually went to the University of Michigan after starting at
junior college, became interested in English, along with several other hobbies such at the theatre,
continuing as a hobby. After I had attained my master, masters in English at the University of
Michigan I started teaching school six months in Zeeland.
Interviewer:
When was this, Miss Baloyan?
Miss Baloyan: The beginning of my career was in 1923. As a matter of fact, when, the following
year I came back, I came to Grand Rapids to start a career in teaching. It was the beginning of 42
½ years in Grand Rapids in teaching—most of it at Ottawa Hills High School. The last thirteen
years at Junior College, so that I taught English 43 years, 15 of those years also dramatics.
Because I went for six years of education to the fine arts department of Yale University, where I
was privileged to attend the famous Yale Workshop under George Pierce Baker, who used to be
at Harvard but moved over to Yale when an enterprising philanthropist named Harkness built a
good building, good theatre for Yale. So the work was transferred over there. I came back to
Grand Rapids, established a laboratory theatre in Ottawa Hill High School which for fifteen
years functioned under the name of mine. We sent out from that theatre people into many artistic
areas. Some of them now professional and it’s a source of great happiness to me that many of the
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people who participated and worked so hard, remember it and comment on it with joy to this
day.
Interviewer: Who were some of these people, could you tell who some of them are?
Miss Baloyan: Yes, Jack Thompson, for instance, is on a college staff in New York, he appeared
two or three years ago as the author of an article in the Harper’s magazine in which he attempted
to recall his yesterdays in Grand Rapids, as his title was. “It was my privilege to have him name
me in that article as his favorite teacher”. So, then Lloyd Matoon, he went into the commercial
end of TV work, specializing for a while in the Chrysler ads. Out west, the man who is lighting
the Lawrence Welk show did the lighting for me, in the laboratory theatre. His name is Wallace
Stanard. His name is still seen on TV in connection with being technical manager for the
Lawrence Welk program. There were others who went out west and there a some whose names I
don’t just recall now, but many have commented. Several of the presidents of the local Women’s
City Club have been former members of that group. Shall I name some of them?
Interviewer: Yes.
Miss Baloyan: Mrs. Birch, Mrs. Whittier, and Mrs. the present President, Mrs. Smiley I could
be forgiven, I hope for some delight in their continuing to enjoy memories of those days because
I believe so deeply that the extras in education such as contact with creativity, helped to give
lasting joy in the memories of people who’ve experienced the creativity. Our work has included
writing and designing of costumes, coloring of materials, making of patterns, make, designing
scenery, making scenery, planning and & operating the lighting, and so many other areas. Ann
Kleiner went to Yale after a number of years. She had been a student of mine in the laboratory
theatre and she is now in Detroit doing creative lighting for Detroit businesses.
Interviewer: Is that Bob Kleiner’s sister?
Miss Baloyan: Yes, it is. When she comes to Grand Rapids, she contacts me sometimes. I take
great delight in the fact that the students who had with me in dramatics, had invented the
nickname “Chief” for me because they said my own name was a little long to say back-stage.
Well, some amusing results followed, for instance the Kleiners were so use to calling me Chief at
home, that their aunt Mrs. Seidman, now many years later, when she sees me downtown, says
“Hello Chief,” and I love hearing say it. I am very proud of the viewpoint that my parents
brought to this country from a place where there was so much tyranny. Their attitude was, that
there are opportunities here, let us avail ourselves of some of the opportunities and let us help
ourselves. I’m afraid I’m a little impatient with those who sit around and wait for help if they can
help themselves because I’ve seen examples of members of my family including other cousins
and uncles and aunts, members of my family, get through hard work and enjoy it and become
contributors, not just absorbers, in society. One of the things for which I’m very grateful is that,
though my family came from a land with so much tyranny, they welcomed the opportunity of
freedom here. One evidence of it is that various branches of the family attended different
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churches and became active contributors in different churches. Yet they didn’t sit in judgment on
one another because it wasn’t the same as the old Armenian Orthodox Apostolic Church. I’ve
always been very happy in the Episcopal Church. My uncle and aunt, the Kurchins, were always
extremely happy in the Fountain Street Church. And this is just part of the freedom that they
displayed all the way through. Some of them have been very funny. For instance, there was once
a man who traveled all the way from California to this town because he’d heard there were
unmarried Armenian girls in this town. He was a complete stranger, but he had once come here,
during the Near East Relief War. He had come here to lecture and had seen some of us
participating in programs and, decided, this was a good family to be attached to. So years later he
came back, in order to try to make a match, went to my parents, and tried to persuade them to
allow him to begin courting one of us, and to his amazement, instead of arranging a match, my
father told him that they never interfered with the choices and decisions we made. So I’m proud
that my family had acquired so much of the principles of this country. I’m grateful for them and,
if sometimes, I fancy that some of the teaching I have done has been of some value, I cannot fail
to give great credit to the family of character and intelligence that gave me a good start in life.
Other subjects I should have touched on, perhaps, you would like to know, I moved from the
West side to the Heritage Hill area.
Interviewer: I’d like to ask you, I like to ask you some questions about how long did you live on
the West Side and did you, go to school over there and if so, where? That’s the sort of thing, I’d
like to go into now.
Miss Baloyan: I attended Union High School as did my brother and sister both. I was given
many fine opportunities there. Worked on the literary periodicals there, I graduated from Union
High School in 1918. I started attending Junior College two years, where I made some of my
life-long friendships, from other areas in the city and where I came to be a great believer in
Junior College for giving a good foundation of an education. Then I went on to the University of
Michigan for two years to get my BA, first. The year I was graduated from the University of
Michigan, 1922. Our family who then had some stores on East Fulton for some time, decided to
moved to the East side and selected a spacious place on Cherry Street, because it was not far
from the downtown area. We found it a good central location to radiate from and as I taught in
many different localities in the city, starting downtown at North Division two years, the Harrison
Park Junior High on the Northwest, five years then in the Southeast at Ottawa Hills twenty-one
years and interrupting the act for education and then eventually going downtown again to Junior
College for thirteen years. And I radiated to the various schools and to the various Civic
organizations, I had become interested in. Eventually I went on a board of directors and not only
of the Civic Theatre and Community Concerts and Urban League, but I also did volunteer work.
And my sister went into dancing and interior decorating. My brother stayed for awhile in my
father’s business and eventually he opened a retail store of his own for rugs but later he started a
rug servicing place on the side of the building. Mother joined an organization both for American
and Armenian and both my parents tried to be good citizen in both, I feel that one of the
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advantages of my background has been that I have been expected to be both a good American
and a good Armenian and I have come to believe that this is for me at least, a better idea even,
than the melting pot idea because I have seen that as various ethnic groups retain their customs
and identity the various groups contribute a great deal of richness to American life. I have
enjoyed living in the near downtown area. There are many advantages. There used to be even
more. The streets are kept very clean in the winter because it’s a passageway through downtown.
Those residences now considered old and large, used to be one-family residences and one knew
one’s neighbors and there were many prime families and it was very….
Interviewer: Who were some, who were some of your neighbors….
Miss Baloyan: Well, across the street used to be some branches of the Alby family and next to
them the Edwin Kleins who became active in a different kind of church, where he helped to
spread the Giddeon Bible around. Next to them was a family whose name now escapes me but
they lived in the brick house a very long time. Just west of us there used to be the Blanchards,
there are many other old families whose names I would have to look up again to recall but, we all
knew one another and it was a personal commitment to one another that I think was fine. It had
another advantage that as people traveled towards downtown for business or religious purposes
or other purposes, they had to pass houses such as ours and they often stopped and became
acquainted and to this day they come and on the yards that are kept up well and the yards that
aren’t. And I feel that I’ve been very many places in my life. I have never felt that the fact that I
was from an immigrant family had handicapped me in the slightest respect because people of
breeding and education apply these qualities to their outlooks and to the way they live. I’ve
encountered people, we have been able to share ideas and laughter and an interest in causes. We
have even found controversial subjects such as sometimes, politics and I have not felt any
barriers to camaraderie and in fact, people of quality are actually interested in the different
aspects of your life and background. Such as mine is full of unique customs and traditions. On
New Year’s Eve, when my grandparents were living, they used to collect the entire clan, cousins,
uncles, aunts, the children, into the living room which ran into the dining room. We’d all get
down on our knees and our grandfather would lead us in prayer, for the coming year. We learned
a great many customs that were unique to us. And I remember one time when I was in grade
school, another custom that puzzled me for awhile, but I’m amused by now, because I was short
of stature, I was to lead a wand drill in a program for relatives. Besides that the very charming
teacher was dating my uncle at that time and I always wondered which was the reason that I was
chosen. But I was to lead and my grandmother decides to come to the program. I was a little bit
shocked when she kissed the hand of the principal, the teacher, and any other dignitaries around
because since I had been exposed to a few of the customs and teachings in school I had decided
very ardently that it was unsanitary for grandmother to kiss the hands of other people. As some
years passed and I reflected what a sweet and loving grandmother I’d had, it seemed to me it was
sweet and humble of her to do it because it was her way of paying respects and gratitude for
what had been done for her members of her family. So though part of my bringing up has been
�7
different, a considerable of it has been the same. I was fortunate enough to win a half scholarship
in piano with Otto [(?) Molly], who started the symphony before the current Grand Rapids
Symphony. He was a magnificent teacher and quite an interesting man, I used to take my piano
lessons in the very room that is now the drawing room for the Women’s City Club. It was then
his studio. Sometimes has as many as three grand pianos in it, usually Steinways. And he was
tall, very strong man and sometimes, especially when I first transferred from an organ teacher to
a piano teacher he felt I was still playing the organ on the piano and he put his knee under the
piano board, would raise his knees and the board would leave my hands and would push my
hands up and, he did many other interesting eccentric things that have to make him picturesque
and that created great affection for him. He used to draw designs on music to show you either the
way he wanted your wrist movement to go or the way he didn’t want your arm to go. He used to
have other musicians come in from Chicago, where he had come from, to make records with him
and if I’d had a good lesson because he knew I was enchanted by these informal sessions he used
to reward me by allowing me to sit in the room on a stool quietly while he and a violinist and a
cellist made beautiful, musical records. He had a hobby of photography that caused him to give
the results of his picture making sometimes to students. Usually however, you knew if you’d had
a good lesson because he wouldn’t say anything. If you didn’t have a good lesson he would point
it out. Oh, I have been grateful not only to special teachers such as that, but, for instance to the
Calle Travis Studio where I studied there from, with Harriet Blood, to study dancing and then
years later after I had trained in dramatics I taught ballet and pantomime to some of Miss Travis’
senior students. It included such people as Marsha Travis, the Goodspeed girls, and so many
other lovely girls whose names, I would have to look up but, some of the lovely young matrons
of Grand Rapids. But teaching ballet, ballet pantomime in Miss Travis’ studio was a great
privilege, since I always thought she had an outstanding ballet studio. I have covered several of
the arts but our interests and activities were even more extensive than anything I have mentioned.
So whatever else you would like to know I’d be happy to go into.
Interviewer: Well, I can’t help but realize that, I run into you fairly often in the art museum.
Have you ever had any special role in, in the life of the museum?
Miss Baloyan: Only in the respect that, when a former director Otto Bach was here his wife Ciel
(?) Cile Bach used to write skits sometimes which, I sometimes helped to perform for them. I
remember too that a Dr. Rosenswag and I were together on an interview program one time. I
can’t claim to have helped them in any other respect, except that we have always been interested
in our family in helping in minor ways and just now I have presented them with some of my
father’s fine ancient porcelain vases of Chinese make. Some of them are from the Chung Ling
period, several centuries old. They have been appraised, it’s very valuable, has been accessed by
the appraisers as extremely gorgeous and they will be at the museum in memory of my father. I
have also promised to send them and, very soon, at the beginning of a new year, and send them
and the public museum also, some silk rugs, since silk rugs are not very common here. The one
that will go to the Art Museum is a silk Kashan(?) prayer rug of, some beauty and rarity. I can’t
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say I’ve done a great deal for them, but I have enjoyed such contacts as I’ve had. And believe it
is one of local institutions that should be helped. I have also felt that way about the Saint Cecilia
Music Society of which I’m also a member and I wouldn’t know where to draw the line except to
say all the educational and cultural, the artistic organizations in town receive our interest and
support often.
Interviewer: You want to stop for just a minute? I think we’ll turn the tape over at this time and
proceed on side two.
Interviewer: We stopped our interview for a moment and talked about a few other matters and
Miss Baloyan has recalled that there are some other people she would like to talk about and I’m
going to hand the microphone to her now and let her continue.
Miss Baloyan: When my father’s store was on East Fulton the Grand Rapids Press and the
Herald, the morning paper, were both within a block of distance from his store with the result
that as we dropped into the store the members of the family became acquainted with some of the
main writers in Grand Rapids including reporters, columnists, critics and even the editor of the
Press, Mr. Booth and Mr. Frank Sparks from the Herald. They became of such interest to us that
they actually influenced us in various ways and we were very fond of them. At one time since I
had become so much interested in books, my mother used to make sure that when we were
children we were always surrounded by educational material. Miss May Quigley, the children’s
librarian used to tell me that every Saturday afternoon Mother used to walk to the library and say
I would like a book of poems for my Mary and the result was I always had books around me and
it became a lifetime interest so that gradually I became interested in writing. But I had so many
other interests too. So I went to see Mr. Booth, the editor of the Press to interview him on what
he thought of journalism as a possible career for a young lady who was attending the University
of Michigan. And he said to me and he knew us well by then. He said I would like to encourage
you to go into it but he said at this time you would have to limit yourself to obituaries and social
notes and he said if you would find that sufficiently interesting then it would be well to go into
journalism. When I think now of the changes in opportunities for women journalists I recall that
with great respect for his honesty in that period of time. However, as I became interested in other
area such as theatre, I attended various summer theatres, one in Booth Bay Harbor, Maine and
one in the north of this state with one of the directors from Civic Theatre here. And since I had
finished training at the Yale University Theatre, the Yale workshop department and since they
didn’t allow us to specialize, it was a broad thorough training, and at that time as I wondered
how I could use it, Miss Mary Remington, the well beloved drama critic of the Grand Rapids
Press, said to me, if you decide to apply as the director of the Civic Theatre, we will back you.
But by that time I was interested in teaching because I felt I could combine many of my interests
in the teaching area. But to this day I have retained a deep interest in the work of our local
columnists and critics. Don’t find them all equally good. For instance, Miss Margarete Kerns
was a name I came to know well, and I hope that some of the newer people coming will match
the contributions that were made by Mary Remington, Margarete Kerns, and others. I have also
�9
come to respect the work of Jerry Elliot who writes with a distinctive style. And I think that
some of these people who we have taken for granted have, made much more expanded
contributions than we’ve realized. For instance, one of the special interests of the Cyprus
situation to me last year was the fact that former Junior college student of mine, for I came to
teach in Junior College eventually, was a boy who later became cultural attaché with the
American Embassy in Cyprus. I wasn’t sure whether he had been returned to this country or not
during the recent troubles and I knew that after his work at Junior College he had worked for a
while with Mr. Elliot, Jerry Elliot and others at the Grand Rapids Press. I started to investigate
and learned fortunately in May he had been returned to this country and there was a story within
recent months of the fact that his wife and child had followed him. So you see reporters and
columnists have not only done an interesting job for us but have trained some future journalist
and government workers, who have contributed to our daily lives. I think some of fail to realize
what a great town Grand Rapids actually is. Several times in the opportunities that I’ve had I
have had tempting openings in other areas of this country but contrary to Mr. Butts, opinion of
the area, I have loved Grand Rapids and I made the decision to come back here and to stay here
and I’ve never regretted it. I know there are many others. Grand Rapids not too large, not to
small and it’s had all the opportunities that the larger centers offer and it’s a good thing that some
of us do prefer coming back to our town and bringing with us, experiences we have picked up
elsewhere so that through our travels, we can bring a little of Maine, a little of Connecticut, a
little bit of northern Michigan and so many other areas, back to Grand Rapids. I don’t think it’s
an accident that Grand Rapids is foremost in some of the contemporary art projects of recent
years and has shown leadership in other progressive areas I think it’s because, there is an interest
here in good things. I don’t even think that the furniture industry has completely left us, for its
influence on modern life can be shown in our continuing preference for quality in daily life. And
I’m so happy to have known some of the people who have worked in connection with the arts in
Grand Rapids and with furniture in Grand Rapids and with business in Grand Rapids. You asked,
Mr. Hutchins, about my uncle Armen Kurchin one of the smart things he helped to do happened
when the depression was felt so deeply here and some of the furniture factories were wondering
what the future of the city would be. Well, the Chamber of Commerce and my uncle actively
participating, used their skills for helping to bring in new metal industries and other new
interests that have continues here and have helped to keep our commerce, successful as much as
anywhere else in any period.
Interviewer: You mentioned having written Secretary Butts in regard to his rather unfortunate
remarks about Grand Rapids, if you would just like to comment on that.
Miss Baloyan: I was indignant as I’m sure so were others, so I wrote Mr. Butts, that although I
know Mr. Butts that you must have been at least half joking in your reference to Grand Rapids,
when you suggested that, take away a furniture factory or two and the town could blow into
Canada, I said there is a suggestion there that we are provincial. I said far from being provincial,
this is a highly cosmopolitan town in many ways. Where else can you find in a middle-sized
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town six colleges, an art museum that is sought out by neighboring communities, a public
museum that goes in, that brings in many ethnic groups and it goes into other communities with
its activities, this is a town of several hundred churches, this is a town which was smart enough
when the furniture industry began suffering, weakening, smart enough to bring in other
industries so that it could succeed if not always in the same way, then in new ways. This is
indeed a cosmopolitan town with all the opportunities that one could find in the larger
communities and so we’re not in the least provincial and I’m sure that although our new
president may have compassion for workers in agriculture he is well acquainted with other
aspects of Grand Rapids life too and so Mr. Butts in our community we like the authentic.
Interviewer: Speaking of the president, do you know Mr. Ford or Mrs. Ford?
Miss Baloyan: I know both, President and Mrs. Ford. In fact, at one time President Ford, as a
choir boy sang in the Saint Mark’s Church Choir. His parents, his mother and his step-father, the
Jerry Ford Seniors were extremely, highly respected both in our church and the community and
they were wonderful people. In the later years I came to know Betty too as a dancer. In fact, in
one of our local dramatic programs, she danced for us very beautifully, very gracefully. They are
very fine people although one may differ with a particular political decision and practice,
anybody who knows Jerry or Betty cannot doubt their integrity and good intentions. I will say
they are very religious people, sincerely religious. I think we are fortunate that there are people
of character who will try to help us out at a time character seems like a lost quality in this
country, I don’t really believe that. I want to emphasize it just seems that way.
Interviewer: Let’s turn it off a minute, Miss Baloyan, when you… I’d like to ask you, how you
first became interested in the Urban League because that’s in, you were one of the first members,
I believe?
Miss Baloyan: I had been doing some work in dramatics when an old school-mate Marsha
Marshall(?) who was in the Urban League work asked if I’d be interested in trying some
dramatics with the minority group and whites working together. It sounded like an interesting
project so I did one year of class work, in dramatics for both blacks and whites together. We met
in the basement of the St. Philip’s Church which is called the Under-Croft and then at the end of
the year, we gave a program at the local YMCA, where we were given an auditorium type of
room with a platform and my students from classes at Ottawa Hills supplied the scenery and did
the back-stage work and we gave a bi-racial dramatic program. Then at the end of that year, I
was asked if I’d like to go on a board. I went on a board for three years at a time when Dr.
Claytor was president at the end of that time I had a kind of collapse, at school and had to go to
the hospital so I thought for reasons of health I should not consider returning to the board so I
served one year of volunteer work in dramatics and three years on the board. And the Urban
League work was most fascinating. One of the great benefits was that I got to know Paul and
Ethel Philips real well and they are to this day among my very good friends and I’m still very
much interested in the welfare of that project. This is just one of several of the civic groups that I
�11
got interested in. The community Concerts Organization showed great promise for awhile
because although there were New York agencies helping us, advising us and booking for us, the
actual campaign work was done locally and we were able to bring international artists at a very
low cost because many citizens helped to sell season memberships. You became a member by
buying this season ticket. This work could have gone on indefinitely if the local group had not
changed from the original plans, it fell through. I think probably the civic organization I worked
for the longest was the Civic Theatre Group.
Interviewer: When did you start to work for the Civic Theatre, were you, was it formed, when
you were originally associated with it?
Miss Baloyan: I joined in the year that Maud Feely was the director. She was a professional
actress here with a professional troupe.
Interviewer: In what year was that again?
Miss Baloyan: Doing it from memory I would say roughly 1924. I was in the second play that
was given called the Doctor, directed by Feely. For a time…
Interviewer: How do you spell her last name?
Miss Baloyan: F-double e-l-y. For a time it satisfied me to do character acting and when
especially when Paul Stevenson came and the movement changed from the St. Cecilia building
over on the west side in Old Germania Hall it was so colorful and the director was so talented
that it became an enchanting and rewarding activity to act for him. In the meantime, he advised
me, to go into some aspect of the theatre, possibly directing and I came to realize that directing
would satisfy me most of all because although we the American public glorify the actors actually
the director is one of those getting the greatest satisfaction because he has to be so creative that
he can pull all the different arts together, that are involved in one unified production and
approach and so because of Mr. Stevenson’s suggestion that I go on with work at Yale
University, I did so and continued my interest in Civic Theatre when I returned as doing it as a
hobby. I was on their board a long number of years and worked with them twenty years so with
the work at several of the local buildings including the Ladies Literary Club, St. Cecelia,
Germania Hall, before they began hiring public buildings when some of us gave our greatest
devotion to it. The early days were colorful and interesting…..
Interviewer: Who were some of the people in the early days that you remember?
Miss Baloyan: Well, of course, the one that many Grand Rapids citizens would remember would
be Mrs. Myrtle Coon Sherman. When her son who was a professional actor died, she decided to
have a Saturday night salon, a weekly salon meeting in her apartment. And so she invited as a
kind of memorial to him a group of local people which included Millicent Mackaway now
Millicent Hubbard, Nacib Demusse, the former city manager of Battle Creek, Camilia Boone,
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who married Nacib Demusse, Paul Stevenson, me and several other people who used to meet in
her apartment weekly. We would meet professional people that came through the town briefly.
We had a literary, artistic, theatrical interest and this group was part of the bowl work of Civic
Theatre. Not the only ones but part of the bowl work and well, among some of the main people
in later years, Mr. Phil Buchen was on one of the boards. Mr. A…I believe Harold Hartger was
on the board, of course Allen G. Miller was an active member, it’s I’m afraid trying to go back
without notes or doing and research leaves a great many gaps of important names, But these are
some of the people.
Interviewer: You must have known Louise Hirst?
Miss Baloyan: Of course Louise Hirst, was a good friend of mine, and and a very active member,
so was Mrs. Steketee and a….
Interviewer: Which Mrs. Steketee?
Miss Baloyan: John Steketee’s mother.
Interviewer: Oh, yes, yes.
Miss Baloyan: And well, there were such well known names in Grand Rapids, such devoted,
loyal people that’s it’s a shame that right now I don’t recall all the names too readily but, they
worked hard in those early years.
Interviewer: I like to ask a question, I know you’re a long, long time member of St. Mark’s
Episcopal Church, are you, in any particular church group or guild in that, in that church?
Miss Baloyan: I’m delighted you asked me this question because in the three years since my
mother’s death, in the years that I’ve been alone, the opportunities at St. Mark’s Episcopal
Church have meant survival for us. I am in some of the adult classes and they are taught by
various members of the clergy. I am also in a Tuesday night discussion group, which takes up
interesting, topics. I am also a member of Cathedral League, it was my mother’s guild and as I
started taking her in later years, I was asked to join and did. Mrs. Harry B. Wagner is the present
president of it. I have been extremely active in the classes conducted by the Reverend Mr.
George Howell and the presently Mr. James (?) and presently the evening, Tuesday evening,
group is being conducted by Mr. Peter Winter. So all three of our clergy are participating in a
very fine learning opportunity for adults as the enrollment of the young people began dwindling.
The so called task force planning, the educational program for the church created an enlarged
program for adults and it has been extremely well received so that there are at least seventy-five
adults enrolled in the Sunday morning classes now and I participate regularly, and feel that I
have learned a great deal and one of the incidental bonuses is the delightful fellowship with
church members. At one time when we were younger we knew the people in a young people’s
group real well, but then as years followed we didn’t always have the opportunities to come to
�13
know our fellow churchmen, intimately. These adult classes have provided fellowship together
with what I consider a very beneficial part of our church program, the Sunday morning coffee
following the church service which is an opportunity for visiting with one’s friends and I will say
I have come to know dozens of church members well as individuals and they have come to be so
important in my life. They’re so kind and considerate and thoughtful. And it’s such a joy to meet
them out, say on a symphony night or other nights. One feels that one has acquired a second
family. The church program has come to function very well. A part of it that I hadn’t expected to
enjoy so much but do enjoy is the opportunity to serve on the community involvement
committee I was asked to visit some of the agencies to which our church has contributed and I
have interviewed their directors, written up reports of their answers and of the activities of these
social agencies and we have started a file on some of the agencies that our church is interested in.
We are going to make our next project the effort to get more individuals involved in active
volunteering for some of the organizations that we feel are worthy. And this opportunity has
been so interesting, so satisfying, as one gets so tremendously interested and then one reads in
the paper that this or that group had to give up because they couldn’t continue financially. It
became a personal disaster because one has become so much convinced of the worthiness of that
project.
Interviewer: Can you think of a particular one that has suffered, gone out of existence?
Miss Baloyan: Well, the Baxter Community has, hadn’t releases and news stories saying that
they’re having problems. I have heard a recent story that there may be funds coming to their
rescue. But as a former teacher I am especially distressed because part of their programs
consisted of the effort to educate all people of all races who live in a particular under privileged
community, who wish to go to that center. The Baxter Community Center, offers education in so
many areas and including some of the basic education work that may be found in quite a number
of other centers also but it does not limit itself to that. I think that’s one of the most notable ones
that has suffered for lack of funds.
Interviewer: All right, I think we’ve covered quite a multitude of subjects, I’d like to ask you a
question now, you just moved in the last few days I believe, Up to this new facility, the Pilgrim
Manor, you lived, I believe, up to your move in the, your old family home on Cherry Street, is
that correct?
Miss Baloyan: Yes. We lived in that home fifty-two years.
Interviewer: What was the address?
Miss Baloyan: Six-thirty-nine Cherry Street. And I have now been at Pilgrim Manor two weeks
and it has solved a number of problems for me. One certainly can no longer be alone and if one
wishes to leave the group and other people one has one’s room and numerous places he can
escape to lovely courts, with beautiful views and classroom, the activities don’t completely, fill
one’s interest, some of us are allowed to drive, I continue to drive my car so that I can still seek
�14
other areas where other interests of mine are but, this is a very friendly place to be with
numerous opportunities, it is a concept that I was lucky enough to have in existence in my time. I
shudder to think what people used to have to do in their retirement years a few years back. What
a blessing that now, there are retirement homes often started by churches and sometimes built
partly with federal funds, but what a blessing this particular retirement home has a hundred and
fifty eight residents. There is a bus that is able sometimes to drive us to shopping centers or to
other areas of the interest, if there are as many as nine persons interested. It’s easily available to
downtown. There’s considerable freedom one is urged to continue attending their church of his
choice, is urged to continue seeing his own physician and yet there is a good health center here
too. It’s of course requiring some adjustments from a home that I have known for fifty-two years
but, although many happy years were spent in that home, the time comes when one looks
forward to the time when he may want and need more help, Thank God there is such a thing as a
retirement home concept. And Pilgrim Manor is a very friendly one.
Interviewer: I think that’s perhaps a good place to close our interview. I’m delighted to have had
this opportunity to learn about many of your activities and interests over the years. You certainly
had a fascinating life, and you’re one of the best beloved people in our community. I’ve heard
that from many, many people. So, it’s now, I believe ten after three and, I hope maybe someday
we can have another chat.
INDEX
A
C
Alby Family · 6
B
Bach Family · 8
Baldwin, Melvin · 3
Baloyan, Alexi (Sister) · 1
Baloyan, Alfred (Brother) · 1
Baloyan, Martin (Mardiros) A. (Father) · 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 11
Baloyan, Nouvart Kurkjian (Mother) · 2, 3, 9, 11, 13
Baxter Community Center · 14
Birch, Mrs. · 4
Blanchard Family · 6
Blood, Harriet · 8
Boone, Camilia · 13
Booth, Mr. · 9
Buchen, Phil · 13
Butts, Secretary · 10, 11
Cathedral League · 13
Civic Theatre · 3, 6, 9, 12, 13
Claytor, Dr. · 11
Coon Sherman, Myrtle · 12
D
Demusse, Nacib · 13
E
Elliot, Jerry · 9
F
Feely, Maud · 12
Ford, President and Mrs. · 11
Fountain Street Church · 2, 3, 5
�15
H
R
Hirst, Louise · 13
Howell, Reverend George · 13
Hubbard, Millicent · 13
Remington, Mary · 9
Rosenswag, Dr. · 8
K
Kerns, Margarete · 9
Klein Family · 6
Kleiner Family · 5
Kleiner, Ann · 4
Kurchin Family · 5, 10
Kurchin, Armen (Uncle) · 2, 3, 5, 7, 10
Kurkjian, Armen (Uncle) · 2
Kurkjian, Grandfather · 2, 7
Kurkjian, Grandmother · 2, 7
L
Lady’s Literary Club · 3
Lawrence Welk Show · 4
M
S
Saint Mark’s Episcopal Church · 3, 11
Seidman, Mrs. · 5
Smiley, Mrs. · 4
Sparks, Frank · 9
St. Cecilia's Music Society · 8, 12
Stanard, Wallace · 4
Steketee, Mrs. · 13
Stevenson, Paul · 12, 13
T
Thompson, Jack · 4
Travis, Marsha · 8
U
Matoon, Lloyd · 4
Union High School · 5
University of Michigan · 2, 6, 9
Urban League · 6, 11
O
W
Oliver Machinery Company · 3
Ottawa Hills High School · 4
Wagner, Mrs. Harry B. · 13
Whittier, Mrs. · 4
Widdicombe, John · 2
Winter, Peter · 13
Women’s City Club · 3, 4, 7
Wurzburg, Elvestra · 3
P
Philips, Paul and Ethel · 11
Pilgrim Manor · 1, 14, 15
Q
Quigley, May · 9
Y
Yale University · 4, 9, 12
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3dd900e17fcd265d94690c4b044354af.mp3
b03ddd1898ce3aed565de7606de81310
Dublin Core
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Title
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
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Various
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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application/pdf; audio/mp3
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eng
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RHC-23
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1971 - 1977
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RHC-23_44Baloyan
Title
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Baloyan, Mary
Creator
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Baloyan, Mary
Description
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Mary Baloyan's parents came from Armenia in 1897. She was the first Armenian girl born October 13, 1899 in Grand Rapids. She graduated from the University of Michigan in 1922. She later was a teacher at Ottawa Hills High School, JRCC, and in Zeeland for about forty-three years total. She was involved with the Urban League, Community Concerts Organization, and Baxter Community Center. She was Vice-President of the Civic Theatre, and established music scholarships to the Interlochen Arts Academy. Mary Baloyan died on January 21, 1984.
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Women
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
Date
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1974
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87f9f709762b06e5b8c39f0fb8487e7e.mp4
1abcbc02dd4ca54e5711968b8b535dfa
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8a7c7451ee4fe9215968d2234e1bea9.pdf
8eab3cbbe6004f009ad1fd5aee69e96d
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Jacqueline Baumgart
Length of Interview: (01:28:17)
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer February 20, 2010
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
Hard.
Interviewer: “In what way?”
It was very hard. We were eight and I was the youngest of eight and I did not have a
father, so the whole time during the depression was very, very difficult.
Interviewer: “What did your mother do to support you?”
She did washing clothes, ironing clothes, house cleaning. That’s what she knew how to
do and in those days—women, that’s pretty much what they did with a fifth grade
education.
Interviewer: “What was school like before high school?” 1:38
Before high school, I got into trouble a lot because I wanted to play ball and I wanted to
kick the ball and play ball and do what all the boys were doing. I grew up with boys,
brothers, and so I tagged along, a few feet behind, but I tagged along. We played a lot of
softball and scrub games and that’s how I learned how to play and whenever they didn’t
have enough players, they let me play. 2:17 I was little, I was very, very little and
when they let me play, they put me in the outfield because they didn’t have to shag the
ball and then I learned how to throw very long and hard because I was throwing the ball
back in and that’s how I really learned how. By playing with the boys, it gave me an
opportunity to develop physically, because, like I said, I was very, very small. 2:57
Interviewer: “The town you grew up in, was it a very big town or was it a small
town?”
It was a small town. Waukegan is located between Milwaukee and Chicago and very
near there was the Great Lakes Training Center and not too far from there was Fort
Sheridan and so, it was just a small town and in fact very close to Kenosha, where I
wound up playing and about the same size. 3:30
Interviewer: “How about high school, how was high school for you?”
High school was very, very interesting. I moved to Milwaukee in March of 1942.
1
�Interviewer: “Your whole family?”
No, I had a sister living in Milwaukee and two of my brothers went into the service and
mother had received a widow’s pension and that kind of decreased a little bit when they
went into service, so I moved to Milwaukee to live with a sister and from there, which
was a great thing because that helped me develop differently than what I would have in
Waukegan. I had playgrounds to play on. 4:16 You couldn’t play in the schools in
competition, but we could play on the playgrounds in the summer and I fortunately—the
alley behind the house had a common fence, with the alley and the playground and so
when my sister asked me to take the garbage out, I said “sure”, because I took the
garbage out and I was gone. That’s how I started and there were two gentlemen that had
worked with the Milwaukee recreation department and the playgrounds had directors and
one was Bunny Brief and one was Jack Chlossa, both professional ball players, because
we were going from playground to playground, and they said, “I think we’ll take you out
to West Allis”, which is a suburb, because they had a fast pitch softball league there.
They took me out there and I got on the team right away—
Interviewer: “Now by team—is this a girls team?” 5:25
A girls team. I finally found that I was good at something, because you don’t know,
you’re always playing with the boys and it’s a different kind of competition when you do
that. The boys say that you are only a girl and I had to live through that and that develops
a certain kind of tenacity in you and so when I went to West Allis, they had about eight
softball teams, fast pitch, and the first year that I was there, we won the state
championship. My mother came into town and it was the first and only game that she
saw was winning, winning my first championship. 6:17 One to nothing on a balk.
That’s the kind of close competitive games that I was learning all the while.
Interviewer: “Now, after the game, what did your mother have to say?”
Not too much, she really—it was indifferent to her, she didn’t really know anything about
sports, particularly women playing sport, and she just thought it was nice, everybody
treated me nice, so that was her main important thought. She didn’t live with us in
Milwaukee; she went back to Waukegan and was living there. 7:01
Interviewer: “What position were you playing by this time?”
A catcher.
Interviewer: “Were you always a catcher?”
No, I was always everything and that’s how I grew up, to play every position. I played
every position and I actually became a catcher during the wintertime when we were
playing inside a gym with a different kind of ball—it was a little bit larger ball than a
softball, it had an out seam to it and a little softer, I mean it wasn’t had at all and I was
just playing in the outfield, but they all knew that I wanted to play and that I could play
2
�anywhere. At one point a pitcher wasn’t doing too good, so the catcher became the
pitcher and then they said, “Well, who wants to catch?” All eyes came this was, I mean I
didn’t have to say much of anything, so I went into catch, well, I dropped the first foul
ball, “tip’ you know, and I realized that I had to keep my eyes open because you flinch
and that’s an automatic response and I said, “I have to keep my eyes open”. 8:20 By the
end of the game there was a foul ball and I caught it and from then on, I was a catcher.
Those are the kinds of things that happen that lead you in a direction. Coming to
Milwaukee, doing something like that as a catcher, staying a catcher, going out to West
Allis, being pointed the way; it has an awful lot of importance for my development. 8:49
Interviewer: “Now how old were you at this time? This was still high school?”
I was in—yes; I was about fifteen and a half, sixteen, something like that.
Interviewer: “So you’re going to high school, you’re playing ball with this group?
What happened next? Did you graduate from high school?”
I graduated from high school and then I was working and playing out in WestAllis,
softball, and we began to start playing baseball and we were playing in West Milwaukee,
which is between West Milwaukee and West Allis in terms of property lines and during
that time I was scouted for the All American Girls Baseball League. 9:54
Interviewer: “Did you know anything about this group prior to that?”
I knew a little bit because some had started to come back from playing professional ball
and we had to wait a year or two before you could play amateur again. I knew that they
had played and I knew that Milwaukee had had a team. I became a knotholer because we
didn’t have any money, nobody had any money and I was a catcher and another lady,
Edna Shear, lived in Cedarburg another suburb and we both were scouted. I didn’t know,
we didn’t know we were scouted and I got a card in the wintertime, close to winter, and it
said to go to someplace in Pennsylvania or Newark, New Jersey. 10:53 I didn’t know
that Edna had received a card and her card said Chicago was where she was supposed to
go. Well, I wanted to play, so I borrowed some money, took a train and went to Newark,
New Jersey all by myself and my world wasn’t any larger than from Waukegan to
Milwaukee, which is about forty-five minutes away. 11:22
Interviewer: “Now, just previous to that, you’re still living with your sister.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So, did you talk it over with her at all? Did you have anybody that
you talked about going to New Jersey?”
No, I just went. I borrowed money from a sister that was living in Waukegan and she
was married to a dentist, so I figured they had a little bit of money and sure enough it was
either fifty or sixty dollars that I borrowed. To go. 11:51
3
�Interviewer: “So you arrive in New Jersey, what was your first impression of New
Jersey?”
Big, huge—where do I put my foot next? Sounds are so different, very, very different.
Speaking the English language was different—in “New Joyzee” you know, that was a
little bit different, but I was met at the train by I think it was three, of the ball players and
they were part of the recruiting and all of that. They took me to a gym, an inside gym,
just like the movie and I tried out, I had my glove, a catche’rs glove, and we went up
against the wall and then we went one by one and there was a black lady sitting next to
me and she didn’t have a glove, so she asked if she could use my glove and I said, “ yes,
but it’s a catchers glove”, and she said, “that’s ok”, so she went and she came back and I
went and the three of them took me out to dinner after that because I was staying in a
private home. 13:17
Interviewer: “The three originals that picked you up at the railroad station?”
Yes. They were the only contacts that I had. They asked me, “was that your glove or her
glove?” I said, “it was my glove”, and then they said, “Oh, we don’t do that”. That
was my first introduction into how people felt about other people, because where I grew
up in Waukegan, we were pretty much a mixed group and for me there wasn’t any kind
of distinction when you were going to play ball or whatever, so that was very upsetting
for me. 14:05
Interviewer: “In that particular gym, you mentioned yourself and then there was a
black woman there too, were there other women there trying out? About how
many?”
There were probably twelve to fifteen or something like that.
Interviewer: “But there was actually one black woman in there?”
Yes, one black woman.
Interviewer: “Wow, do you know what ever happened to her?”
No.
Interviewer: “After you had the dinner with the three, you went back to the host
home and you stayed overnight, what happened next?”
I just went to the train again and came back. One of the things that I just very well
remember was going through the oil city in Pennsylvania—you could smell it—it’s a
whole new smell, everything was so new and so different. 15:05 When you’re by
yourself, you learn how to—what to accept and what not too. I’m a survivor of a lot of
things and was attuned to a lot of things going on and very much a real experience. For
one to grow up at that age, very impressionable and I take everything in, like you learn
how to steal second or something.
4
�Interviewer: “Once you got back home to Milwaukee, was there another
communication of some kind?” 15:57
Yes, before spring training I got another card and it said to go to South Bend, Indiana and
I met about sixty girls there and we had a spring training. Spring training wasn’t easy it
was very hard.
Interviewer: “Tell us, first of all keep in mind, you were there and we weren’t, so I
kind of want to visualize your arriving there were sixty girls there. Give us—take us
there to spring training.” 16:29
Spring training—early in the morning and we would go until noon, we had a light lunch
and only because I was thin, if they had a little extra couple of cups of ice cream they
would say, “here you need this”, and we had a little bit of rest period because we ate and
then it was all afternoon again until four o’clock, we never let up. We didn’t play an
actual game, but it was like an infield practice. You went to a position or you said you
wanted to go and you played that however the manager wanted it to go, because it wasn’t
a game, it was—he was almost actually teaching us. He wanted to know what we really
knew and how we would think and respond to the ball and other players and to managing,
how we would respond to directions. 17:40 After that I was told to go to Racine to meet
up with Rockford.
Interviewer: “So, at spring training—I know a lot of these answers, but I still want
to get it for the record. The spring training, you did not have a team yet, you were
not on a team yet?”
Not yet, no.
Interviewer: “So the girls were all playing different positions to see which ones they
could play well or not well and then a decision was made as to what team you’re
going to play on?”
Right.
Interviewer: “What were you wearing during spring training?” 18:10
Just jeans and shorts depending on how warm it was.
Interviewer: “But it wasn’t uniforms, just whatever you brought to play is what
you wore?”
Right.
Interviewer: “So the spring training was completed and they let you know that you
were now a?”
I went to Rockford—actually Rockford was in Racine and so that’s where I went and I
was there for a week and I was under the tutelage of Bill Allington, I learned more from
him in one week than I did in all the time before. As we look back at it now it has to do
with—we came with the skills and the professional men managers helped us become
5
�professionals. A lot of little things that you never think of, if you get into bad habits
naturally in terms of batting and throwing. 19:14
Interviewer: “Give me an example of maybe one of the ones that you learned. You
say that you learned more in that week, well, give me an idea, what did you learn?”
One in particular, because I was a catcher and we would have an infield practice and all
of a sudden he threw the ball down on the ground and I took that to be a bunt, which it
was, so I hopped right after it I picked it up and I went like this and then I let it go and he
did it again and I did the same thing and he said, “now what did you do that for?” I said,
“What do you mean?” He said, “you put your hand into the glove and then you throw the
ball. That runner has got a whole step and a half on you.” You don’t think about those
things when you’re just playing and learning a little bit, just a natural by osmosis thinking
The managers we had playing fast pitch were good managers, but they weren’t teaching
us anything. 20:18 They just taught us about some things as the game moved along.
You really weren’t learning like we learned in the professional league and of course I
listened. I did that all my life was to watch and listen and from that I learned an awful
lot. Now the other thing was in hitting, I stood too far in the back and he said, “you got
to move up a little bit and choke up a little bit. You got to be brave and go all the way
down to the bottom of the bat. Just choke up a little bit because then you have more
balance at the end of the bat. We have to learn to hit and bat according to our bodies
what we can do and what we can’t do it isn’t all show. If you want to play, you play, you
don’t act up.” 21:18
Interviewer: “Good advice”
It is and he didn’t mean it in the sense of show off, he meant it in the sense of getting out
of bad habits.
Interviewer: “Let me ask you a question and this may sound like an unfair question
and you don’t have an answer for it, but he’s a professional male baseball player
and he’s working with you as a very young girl. Did you get any sense that he was
treating you like a girl or treating you like a baseball player?”
Like a baseball player, because he knew his positions as a manager and what it probably
might have been like for him when he started out being a professional. It’s a transitional
period and he knew how to do that. He also knew that you had to learn not only how to
play, but the intricacies of the game, the whole game, the whole thing, whether you were
catcher or first baseman, pitcher or an outfielder, you learned it all, everything that’s
going on because three things, 1 is the ball, naturally, there is no play without the ball, 2nd
is accuracy, if you’re going to play, you don’t just throw, you concentrate, not too hard,
but you concentrate on where you’re going to throw that ball and the 3rd one is to think
where you’re going to throw that ball, when are you going to throw the ball and to be
ready to receive. 23:02 For him those were the three most important things. They are
very, very basic, they don’t get anymore basic than that, and it will take you a long way.
The other thing he pointed out was that you are on the field playing and the manager is
watching all of this and the manager doesn’t miss a trick and so if you think you’re going
6
�to fluff off, it doesn’t work because the manager sees what you are doing and those are
some of the little things that make you a professional ball player. 23:51
Interviewer: “Once the spring training was over with and you were chosen to be on
the team, what was the process of getting your uniform and do you remember what
it was like to see your uniform for the first time?”
After that I was sent to Chicago, excuse me, the northern part of Chicago, and most of the
girls I met in South Bend were there. They were choosing thirty girls to make up two
teams, so that means that there are fifteen players on a team, that’s all we had. I was
chosen as a Springfield Sally and only because we had the uniforms. They tried a team in
Springfield and it didn’t work and the other team was called the Chicago Colleens
because Chicago had a professional team. It wasn’t baseball, it was fast pitch softball
and they set-up a perimeter and around that perimeter, we couldn’t play anywhere near
there because it was an infringement, so they put us on a bus, thirty of us girls, the two
women chaperones managers, a man manager, sometimes the business manager, and sent
us all east of the Mississippi and into Canada. 25:28 I probably was one of the older
ones and another Cuban girl was, I think, about twenty-four. I think I was going on
twenty-one or something like that, but the others were all younger. What it was—it was a
traveling team to gain experience playing professional baseball. In the towns that we
played, they had charities that they gave money to and then to have tryouts. Every time
we went someplace, there were tryouts and when we came back to Cleveland, I think it
was, we just went home. 26:26
Interviewer: “So it was two teams of fifteen, traveling and playing each other?”
Yes.
Everyplace you were just playing each other, playing each other. You were actually
getting back on the bus together, so you had the camaraderie of being on a team, but
you would separate out and play each other?”
Yes. That’s a learning process, a growing process because we were from all over the
United States and Cuba. The whole experience is more than an experience. That’s how I
look at it, it became a way of life because you ate baseball and played baseball, slept
baseball, we went from one town to the next town and very seldom were we two nights in
the same town. 27:30 We never read the write-ups you know.
Interviewer: “Give me an idea, I know this might sound dull, but what’s the
routine? You get up in the morning, you get on the bus, you go—walk us through a
typical day when you go on one of those excursions and how it was.”
Well, you know it depended on how late we got in from one town to the other, especially
going in and through the mountains. Sometimes we would be like six in the morning
coming in, so we went to bed. I went to bed early because I needed my eight hours. We
would get up, we ate together in different restaurants and places and we then would rest
because we couldn’t eat sooner than two hours before we were going to play, so that was
kind of a restful time, lounging time, and that was a time when we weren’t in close
proximities in what we were doing and we maybe went to a movie or something and
7
�chose different things. 28:53 We would then get dressed and ready to go onto the bus
and the bus would take us to the ball park and then we would work out and I mean work
out, and then play a game and shower, find a place to eat, travel, depending on how far
we had to go, and the next day the same thing. 29:20 There was sometimes a little long
time in a city depending on how far it was and what time was and how long it took to get
there. We still had to take care of our own clothes.
Interviewer: “Wash your own clothes and stuff, wow.”
We would go to a Laundromat, but not the uniform.
Interviewer: “How did the uniform get cleaned?”
I don’t know--the managers took care of that. They took it to a Laundromat or where
ever they could. 29:50
Interviewer: “What were the fans like?”
Very good. In the towns that we were in, they had either a double A or a triple A team
and the diamonds that we played on were good, which was a nice thing.
Interviewer: “You were obviously getting locals that came out to see the teams. Did
you have a lot of girls, women or men or was it more mixed?”
It was mixed, more men than what they might have now because it wasn’t as popular and
we were sort of an entertainment or a show of some kind and people wanted to see what
we were all about. There was advance publicity and quite often we had more fans then
the home team that played there because we were playing when they were out of town.
30:55 We would hear that and when we made a good play we were rewarded with—it
was like a whole surprise for them to see that because we were very good and we came
with the skills and we were naturals. We also exhibited the joy that we had in playing
even though we played the same team all the time; we were still growing and learning.
31:30
Interviewer: “The two teams were they exactly the same or did you switch over and
play catcher for one and then play catcher for another or was it always the same
group playing against the same team?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “That makes sense, so once that was over with and you went back to
Milwaukee, then what happened? What was the next stop in all of this?”
I got a card. I got another card because all thirty of us were put in the “pot” so to speak
and the teams told—this one and that one, and I was asked to go to Kalamazoo,
Michigan, so I want to spring training there and Kenosha didn’t have a catcher at that
time, so I was catching for Kenosha even though I belonged to Kalamazoo and after
spring training Kenosha bought my contract, whatever that was, because when I signed
the contract it was blank. You never knew what you were getting or anything else, you
just signed the contract and you were going to play ball. 32:39
8
�Interviewer: “Now if you’re playing for two different teams, what was the
uniform?”
The same uniform except in a sense it was Kalamazoo and I’m trying to remember that
part of it because I don’t remember it being any different. When I went to Kenosha, I had
their regular uniform.
Interviewer: “Now, on the touring team with the thirty of you, you were already a
professional baseball player, but now with the new team, this is now the American—
the league, so this is different, did you have any sense of going from this to this or
were you just going to keep playing baseball?” 33:45
There was a little bit of that yes, because you’re coming into an already—a team that is in
place, so there’s a lot of difference coming to a team than what we did, because we were
all new to each other in terms of what we were going to do and this team was already in
place. They already had their own ways of what they were doing and who they get along
with, where they go and now we have a home place and then we have on the road, so
your monies are different, you take care of your own stuff when you’re at home and on
the road you get a per dium I call it. 34:35 We all got pretty much the same for that.
Interviewer: “Well, as the newcomer into this team, how did you get along?”
Quietly. Quietly in a sense of interaction. More quiet—you have a different manager,
everybody has their own style, how they do things and I had to learn all that. It wasn’t
too hard to learn it, but you had to learn the differences. Some managers manage a lot
and some managers manage a little and they kind of let you play. It was about the same
thing with the players because they’re older, not much, but they had been playing, so they
have a couple of years under their belt and you’re a “rookie”, you’re a “rookie”. I still
had to carry the bats and things. From my own growing up and my formative years, I
learned how to understand where my place is wherever I am and whomever I’m with.
36:11 That part wasn’t too hard, I could read that and I knew that because I’m a
survivor. You do make friends in the sense of hanging with some more than you do
others and I think there were three or four “rookies” on the team in Kenosha, so we kind
of hung together for a while.
Interviewer: “Was there a point and I know this is kind of a difficult question
because it’s so specific, you’re a “rookie”, was there a moment, was there a period of
time when you felt like you were no longer a “rookie” and whatever you were doing
the went, “oh, she’s good”? 37:05
I got a hit—see, I was a straight away hitter, I wasn’t a long distance hitter, partly
because of my weight and you’re the catcher so you bat eighth and I smacked one over
the second baseman’s head, because we were playing baseball rules now, we’re a bigger
diamond, we’re not on the softball diamond and I got to first base and I said, “It’s about
time”, and I remember it so distinctly and it’s a great, great feeling to do that. I didn’t
9
�throw anybody out at second, but I was pretty close a couple of times and that is a great
moral builder for me anyway. 38:00
Interviewer: “You felt different, but did you notice a difference also from the other
players that you were treated a little bit differently?”
Sure, because we’re a team and that’s how you become a team is learning to play
together and giving lots of kudos when they’re necessary and I never experienced any
player getting down on a another player like, “what did you do that for?” You were the
one that made the mistake, so there was none of that and most managers wouldn’t allow
that. We learned how to be a team by practice and you practiced as hard as you played,
you didn’t sluff-off. 39:04 For me as a catcher, one of the most marvelous things that
can happen and the joy really comes out, is when we have infield practice and you
“around the horn” as we called it, after a certain ply and then you “zip” to first, second,
third, back, back down to second for the shortstop and over to first or the opposite,
because when we played we ‘zipped” the ball, we didn’t just throw, we “zipped” it.
39:37
Interviewer: “Now by this time the charm school and all that had been over with or
did you have to do that too?”
No, I didn’t have to do that.
Interviewer: “You knew about it or you heard about it though?”
Yes, I heard a lot bout it.
Interviewer: “What do you mean, you heard a lot about it?”
Well, they would tell little stories about having to walk down steps with a book on your
head and they thought how ridiculous. Well, how do you walk down the steps with a
book on your head and a “Charlie horse”? It’s bad enough with just the book on your
head. If you had a sore leg or something then—and the next time you walk down steps
what are you looking at? You look down like this and you can’t keep a book on your
head when you do that. That usually pretty much what they talked about and the
etiquette part. They didn’t like—I eat like I eat like I eat and there were a lot of jokes
about different things and we took it all in and it’s a part of the camaraderie, we had great
camaraderie and we still do. 41:00
Interviewer: “Tell me about strawberries.”
I didn’t do too much sliding because of my position in the batting order, but I did have
some when I got on, they weren’t really strawberries, they were more or less things
that—you know when somebody’s coming into home and sliding in home, we didn’t go
head first, we had hook slides, so you had to—I learned from Mr. Allington, I learned
because I was—I didn’t want to get bowled over, so what he taught me was to give him
just a little corner and to turn sideways so that I don’t have the full force and you turn
sideways because then you’re in a position to move your legs and go wherever you need
to go after the ball, but there still were collisions and things like that because you don’t
10
�know where the balls coming from when you begin and I did get knocked over one time
in pro, but it was just the nature of the game. 42:38 Very much how the play happened,
developed and happened. There was nothing like foul play or anything like that; we
purposely didn’t do those things.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?”
I’ll have to tell you, the first time I put that uniform on, I cried because what flooded in
my mind was of this little kid at home playing with the boys and here I am—I get teary
eyed just thinking about it because it was never a dream to become a professional ball
player, the dream was to survive, the dream was to do the best you can in whatever you
do—lit was like winning a game, when you win—oh, that’s great. This was my own
kind of winning and I kind of stood there for a little bit after I was dressed and I said,
“Ah, this is it, this is it”, and I never forgot that. 44:07
Interviewer: “So the actual design and all that didn’t bother you?”
It did to some degree; it did all of us to some degree because we never played in a skirt
fashion. It was all one piece, but it was a skirt on the bottom, there were no legs to go
into, but you had to learn how to play with it, especially some of the pitchers when they
would begin throwing side arm, it just gets in the way, so each one developed a way in
which to fix their uniform either by shortening it a little bit. I had two tucks here and two
tucks in the back so that it would fit comfortably. 45:04 They weren’t tight fitting at all
because we didn’t like that and we didn’t want that at all. It was heavy, it was like heavy
denim and very warm in the summer, in the hot summer, it was very, very warm.
Interviewer: “You had talked about the fan of the traveling team, can you recall the
fans of the team when you went pro?” 45:34
Yes, because there were fans that came all the time and there were some fans that came
once in a while and some of the fans treated some of the ball players very well. A little
money under the table or whatever, invited over to their houses for picnics and stuff like
that if time provided for that, but we didn’t have too much time for that, but they were
very, very good to us. The regulars were very good to us. 46:16
Interviewer: “You mentioned earlier about the traveling team, that it was a mixture
of men and women and things, the professional team you played for, where the fans,
the majority of them, men or women or what?”
A few more women because we were in one place and they get to know you and they
have favorites like any team does have favorites and we played excellent baseball. We
weren’t just entertainment as we were in the beginning, we still were, but not to the
extent, we did what the Brewers do today, but not to that extent. 47:13
Interviewer: “I understand what you’re saying. I think it is really important what
you are saying, that you were still entertainment, but now you’re baseball players
11
�and their watching it for the baseball, professional baseball. In your first season
you told about that one time that you whacked that ball out there, were there any
other particular ones that you can recall that really stick out either on your end or
what you saw?” 47:37
It had to do with the pitchers because I was little. I remember Jeanie Marlow in Kenosha,
she had a screwball, it’s opposite of a curve and they don’t throw it very often, so anyway
about the third batter, it was early in the season and a new team came in and I don’t even
know who the team was, so I gave her the number one sign because that’s a fast ball and
just plain ball and she shook it off and I was wondering what was going on, so I knew she
didn’t want a curve, so I gave her number two and she shook it off and I gave her the
change up and she shook it off and I gave her the screw ball and I just went through the
whole thing and she kept shaking it off, so I called time and I went to see her and I said,
“can you see the signs?” 48:45 She said, “oh yea, I can see the signs ok”, and I said, “can
you see me ok?” We’re starting to loosen up and josh one another and I said, “what’s the
problem?” She said, “Oh, I just wanted to confuse the batter”. Those are the moments of
the different little things that one does in a professional league. Now that might not have
happened with another pitcher, with another pitcher it might be something else or I might
get a sign from a pitcher instead of me giving a sign to the pitcher. That didn’t happen
very often though. 49:33
Interviewer: “When was it, maybe in your first season, or was it later, that you
started to think that maybe this was going to be your career or did you even think
that?”
I never thought it; I was just doing what I loved to do. I just never thought of it. I came
back to Milwaukee and I had to work. I did a little bit of coaching with some younger
kids and played a little bit of slow pitch baseball.
Interviewer: “There’s no comparison.”
No, heavens no there isn’t, but that’s what was going on at that time and that went on to
become a pretty popular thing, so I was staying in the activity of the game and then I got
married and raised children. It isn’t that I didn’t think about playing professional ball,
but we never talked about it. Bob knew when I married him, but we didn’t talk and I
think that if you ask that question to everyone of us they would say the same thing.
50:53 We just went about our business, it was grand, beautiful and we didn’t have that
sense that we were setting standards or overcoming barriers, we just did it. You really
didn’t know the historical impact on things until much later and my three boys—I had a
ten inch ball that was signed by the teams and it was upstairs, so they used the ball and
used my glove, they couldn’t use my shoes of course, and I said, “oh, you can’t use that
ball, can’t you see those signatures on there? That’s when I played professional”, and
they said, “oh yea mom”. 51:50 Well, that was the opening of saying a little bit about
what I did and I said, “well, I played professional ball”, and they said, “yea, yea”, you
know how boys are, but they do know now and they’re very proud of that and they relay
that to other people very easily if we’re out in a group of some kind. One of them will
12
�say, “oh my mom played pro”, and I say, “here we go”. My husband did a lot of that, but
I didn’t do it. I’m learning how a little bit and I pick my times if it’s called for, then I
might. 52:55 I don’t just advertise it and I do give a lot of talks to different groups, very
different kinds of groups and they love to hear about it and that’s a whole new experience
for us again. When you do that you learn the impact of what we did and the style that we
did that. 53:33
Interviewer: “I want to get back to the—you’ve gone through your first season now
ok? How many seasons did you actually play with that team? You were with
Kenosha right? How long did you play with them?”
It was two, one season with them and one season before that. Kenosha in 1951 dropped
out of the league.
Interviewer: “Where did you go from there?”
To work.
Interviewer: “You didn’t play again?”
I didn’t play again. 54:02 It folded, it was terrible and I thought the whole league was
folding, but we went until 1954, but it was absolutely terrible.
Interviewer: “I guess and I don’t want to go somewhere that you don’t want to go,
but what caught me by surprise was that for some reason I thought after Kenosha
you went on to play for another baseball team. Why not?”
Because the Racine Belles were already out and you had less teams and you don’t need
that many ball players and I couldn’t wait, I had to go to work and send money home and
stuff like that and I just—it’s over. One has to understand how the move from one thing
to another because I did a lot of moving in my life and I learned how to accept something
and just move on. 55:20
Interviewer: “Did you see the end coming to the league? You said that in 1951 you
out.”
A little bit within our own team and near the end we weren’t sure we were going to get
paid and that sort of thing and then sometimes the chaperone became the manager and
that sort of thing. By that time there wasn’t an over arching league ownership, by that
time each team had to take care of themselves and I think that was in 1948 or something
like that. Looking back on it, it was pretty much the access and it was going to end and
there was some talk about it. 56:17
Interviewer: “You said that you went back to work and you said that very quickly
and how difficult was it when it ended? It’s over, it’s ended and you’re going back
to work now, what was your reaction?”
13
�You go kick stones, walk the beach and mull things over and cry a little, but one is
quickly drawn into a different kind of life style. You can’t stay there very long—I had to
go on and put bread in the mouth so to speak. We did have some contact with other ball
players and we’re all commiserating about the loss, our joy, our inner joy, play and just
learned how to accept it with clenched teeth. 57:36
Interviewer: “I don’t know about you, but for me it really hit me hard because in a
sense when you talk about going to slow pitch, that’s a huge drop and that had to be
hard to do. I never played professional baseball, but I went through a transition
and from playing to doing slow pitch I just went, “huh, what is this?”
What it does—that’s part of the transition and it wasn’t what it was called and what we
were doing, we were playing. We had the activity, this little child here was out doing
something—playing whatever she could play and the joy of the activity and the
movement of the body and being able to give expression to the body and I was still able
to do that and then I could coach some of that. That’s small little transitions that you
don’t know are happening, but they are you could still throw the ball, you could still bat
the ball and I could still throw and I’ve never had a sore arm because you take care of
yourself and when I throw, I use my body along with it, I’m not just all arm and that’s a
thrill. 59:09 It is a thrill to throw the ball because the whole sense of the body is active
and that’s what helped me to stop kicking stones.
Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you a personal question and if you don’t want to
answer it, please don’t, but you mentioned earlier that you told your husband Bob
about being a ball player. How did you two meet and did he know you were a ball
player? Is there a connection there?”
He didn’t know. A fellow came to work where I was working that had worked where he
was, at a company that he worked at for thirty six years, and he played golf, they had
their own golf team, and Paul and I had already made arrangements to go golfing on
Thursday with his wife and they golfed on Wednesday, so he came to work the next day
and said, “Do you mind of somebody else comes along to make a foursome? :12 I said,
“that’s fine”, so I left work and went home and changed my clothes and met him on the
golf course and went to Paul’s house afterwards and had a light lunch and then he was on
vacation someplace and about two or three weeks later Paul comes to me and said, “could
I give him your phone number?” I said, “is that Bob?” And he said it was and I said,
“ok” because I had to know who it was and I made my own decisions around those
things. 1:02 On our first date we went to a Packer game, a Packer game here in
Milwaukee at the old Marquette Stadium and it was a kind of foggy, rainy night, but the
Packers won, it was that Bishops game, and then we met Paul and Fran downtown and
we had dinner and danced and all of that. We went together pretty well after that and that
was in August and I was engaged in October and married in January. All from meeting
on the golf course. 1:52
Interviewer: “When did you tell him about being a baseball player?”
14
�I don’t really remember, but not too long after that because he knew that I was interested
in sports and he played softball and I think he got the idea that to get to me we had to
participate in sports and I think it just kind of came out in natural conversation.
Interviewer: “In the earlier conversation we were having, you said that he liked to
talk about the fact that you were playing baseball.”
Yes, because I wouldn’t and he was proud of that and most of the players, when they left,
didn’t talk about it much. If they did any talking, they did it with each other if they were
in contact with one another. 2:57
Interviewer: “I’m so pleased to hear your boys and that they seemed to like the fact
that mom played baseball professionally too.”
They have come a long way with that. They were very young and I taught them a lot of
things. I think they gradually came to understand that I knew something because I was
teaching them. They played a little ball, but they liked swimming and auto mechanics
and all that sort of stuff and I learned then what was happening to me when I was little. I
wanted to do what I wanted to do and each individual boy does, they’re all mechanics
and machinists, but they’ve learned to be their own person and they are very different.
3:48
Interviewer: “This is going to be a tougher question digging into your memory, but
when did you first start and I don’t need a date or anything, but when did you first
start realizing, after the fact, what you had participated in, enjoyed so much, was
very proud of, but still didn’t talk a whole lot about, other people were starting to
go, “Hey, did you know about that?” When did you first realize that you guys
participated in something that you didn’t think was very important at the time, but
a lot of other people were?”
4:27
See I, because I had a married name, they didn’t catch up with me for a while and so
when I found out that we were in the Hall of Fame.
Interviewer: “You didn’t know?”
I didn’t know. I was at a house with Marge Peters, who had played before me in 1944,
and she didn’t know that I had played because I was in 1950 and 1951, so they were
always looking for different ones and a group of us were together at her house and there
was a long hallway and there was her wall of honor and my picture was up there and so
she told me and she showed me the video from Cooperstown. 5:16 Well, I’ll tell you, I
beat my chest. I just beat my chest because “this little one”, which I was called, did
something, I said, “I wish my mother was here now” because she really didn’t approve,
but she knew that I needed to do those things and we finally agreed to that. 6:06 I think
that when you do what you really love to do that it is a gift and when we exercise and
grow out of our gifts, that’s where we go in life and there’s a different joy in learning that
than there is the playing. The joy is monumentus, it’s like “this little kid did it” you
15
�know because I had to prove myself all the time. 6:52 All the time I was proving myself
to myself as well and there isn’t anything better than proving yourself to yourself. It
gives momentum to what you do and there’s opportunity then to share that. We now
share that with each other. We still can come to reunions and meet somebody you
haven’t met before, but you know that they’ve played and we share the same thing, all the
ups and downs, ins and outs, hurts and bruises and strawberries and stories. 7:39 We
begin to tell our own stories within our group.
Interviewer: “You said something earlier about not talking about it, the fact that
your husband was very proud of you and did more talking about it than you,
because you wouldn’t, your kids finally got to the point of realizing it. Why do you
want to talk about it now?” 8:04
It’s valuable. It’s history. If we don’t tell our stories there’s no history to anything if the
stories aren’t told and when I give talks, I say that to the mothers, I tell the mothers that
they have to support their child in what the child likes to do—they may change their mind
in two weeks and they need to tall their story and the grand parents need to love them to
pieces because those are the important things for a child when they’re growing up. 8:55
As I said before, it was very difficult growing up, but all of that is who I am and when I
began to recognize that playing baseball was a very important part of my living and
growing up and who I am and we need to share that with everybody and anybody who
wants to know or will listen and that’s important for the other person also. 9:27
Interviewer: “I have two last questions for you. One you answered in part
throughout, so I’m just going to ask you this: How did the experience of baseball,
pro baseball affect you as a person and how you became the person you are today?”
Learning how to get along really. In college I’m a broad field social science major
educated in secondary education and I was broad field because of all the things that I was
learning, because when you meet at a very young age somebody from New Jersey and
somebody from the south, Atlanta or whatever, Cuba, Canada, each one of us teach each
other who they are and we begin to look at that and recognize that broadens our horizons
of how we view our world. 10:37 The capability then of interacting with people in a
situation no matter where we are. I often say in my talks that we were taught how to be
professional people on the field and off the field very much so.
Interviewer: “You talked earlier also using the word history and as you know, we
have Dr. Smither here in the history department at Grand Valley State University
and I’m a documentary film maker, so I’m going to ask you this very specific
question. Where do you think the All American Girls Professional Baseball League
fits in the whole scheme of history?” 11:24
The development of women, to be given the opportunities to do who they are. Every
person who is alive has desires and things that they like and dislike and if one only does
as one is told or put in a niche or to be seen and not heard we have lost something. That
person has lost something, the world has lost something, not just the United States, but
16
�the whole world has lost something because we’re still part of the human race, we’re not
just what someone else thinks we are. We have to learn to live out from within instead of
having to fulfill somebody else’s ideas of what we are. I’m very strong on that because I
had the privilege of living that out. I always say, “I had a health dose of stubbornness”,
but that’s what it takes. There are so many facets to the development of the human being
that intellectually, physically, emotionally, all of that and the more we do that the more
we are who we are and we can interact with other people of the world. I can reach out
and I can say, “hi, thank you, good to meet you”, and I do that with the kids and if we
don’t do that, what are we? 13:53 It just so happens that through sports, it could have
been any sport because most of us played all sports and in that is the interaction between
us and if I throw the ball to you and you throw the ball back to me, we have a relationship
and if we don’t know how to have relationships with people, oh man, we’re in trouble,
we’re in deep trouble if we don’t, that’s what we’re here for. 14:36
Interviewer: “I still didn’t get a complete answer to the history question. Where do
you think the, and I love what you just said, don’t get me wrong, but I want to focus
on—from your perspective where does the team fit in terms of history? Were do
you just a baseball team? Where do you think it fits into all of this?”
You know, we grew up in a time when we were at WWII and my husband was in WWII,
I had two of my brothers in WWII and we took care of the homefront in the sense of—
when we played we made a V from home plate past the pitchers mound, one team here
and one team there and that V was for victory, that’s what that was for. We played at
Fort Sheridan for the soldiers there and for the navy people at Great Lakes and that was
usually in the springtime for exhibitions and things like that. 15:43 We helped to sell
war bonds in the sense of our appearances. We didn’t physically handle that, but it was
because of whom we were and what we were doing that the war bonds were sold and we
saved Aluminum foil and made it into baseballs and threw them around. We were a part
of the homefront; I think a very large part of the homefront. To give entertainment where
there wasn’t much. You didn’t have much money, there was gas rationing and we took
care of the people in that sense that were in a geographical area.
Interviewer: “Now that part you did feel at the time, right? You did feel that
part?”
Sure right.
Interviewer: “You may not have understood the significance of the baseball and
what it was going to do for future generations, but you did feel that it was part of
the war effort like “Rosie the Riveter”, the WACS or the WAVES or anybody?”
17:08
Absolutely, we were very much aware of sort of a role, I would call it a role, that a—that
actually helped to keep people who worked very hard and long hours, they had a chance
to relax and had a chance to interact with us, and we with them, in a very positive way.
We were always in tune with what was going on, always. 17:49 We began every game
with the “Star Spangled Banner” and we were very in tune to “God Bless America” with
17
�the fat lady singing. Had to hear the fat lady sing and you know what we did when we
traveled? We sang all the time and it was the singing that helped us in the sense of
fulfilling what it is that the people at home had to go through and keep the moral—we
were moral boosters, I would say for whomever came in contact with us. 18:39
Interviewer: “A couple random questions, any particular incidents, events
highlights anywhere in that period of time you were playing that you, for whatever
reason, would like to have on the record? Maybe the kids want to hear about or
grandchildren would finally hear about. Just something, it doesn’t even have to be
baseball related per say, but what in that period of time when you were playing pro
ball, any particular things that may have happened that come to your head?” 19:10
Well, there are two things. One thing is the travel and realizing that we are part of a
larger thing and the other one is baseball and it has to do with playing in Yankee
Stadium. As we were traveling through and came to Newark, New Jersey again and we
played in the old Griffith Stadium in Washington, D.C. and that was our first time to play
within a major league ballpark, “marvelous”. 19:57 Of course you’re in Newark when
you go across the water there and go to Yankee Stadium and that’s where I met Yogi
Berra because I was on that side and when he was starting out and I was so excited
because I think we parked like two miles away, I left my shoes on the bus and that’s how
excited we were to be in Yankee Stadium. To walk inside for the first time as a very
young person to see Yankee Stadium, you’re looking around and “oh my goodness”. At
that time it was pretty much “the stadium” and to meet the players that we met was a—
Yogi asked me if I wanted to use his bat—well, first of all Yogi liked a thick handle and a
heavy thing out here, it was a club, and if I had picked it up and swung it, I would still be
going around in circles. I saw his wrists and his wrists were really big and you had to
have those kinds of wrists to use a bat like that. The whole experience at Yankee
Stadium was memorable in terms of baseball. 21:21
Interviewer: “Was part of it because you were professional? You’re not just a fan
walking into Yankee Stadium; you’re walking in as a professional into Yankee
Stadium.”
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Like I say, we went to Griffith Stadium first on the way up
from town and the difference between a AAA league diamond and major league, there’s
no comparison, it’s just awesome and I use that word not casually, it’s awesome. I
realized why the Yankees had great catchers—because the distance between home plate
and the backstop, you could put a softball diamond in, I mean it was very far. 22:19 You
knew you couldn’t have a fat ball, no fat balls in Yankee Stadium because they could
take two bases instead of one and I think that’s why they had such good catchers and
good hitters. They had catchers that were very good hitters. It was a professional
meeting, absolutely, and a lot of the kids that were there still talk about it. We’re proud
to have been there and rubbed elbows with the “biggies” and just like young kids now are
proud to meet us in that vein. 23:18 When you tell the story, you relive the emotions.
18
�Interviewer: “Well, there are a few of us older “fogies” here that kind of special
being here with you too. I’m not quite the older “fogie” yet, I’m not going to admit
to it though although—I have a question and I’m sure you’ve been asked it a
hundred times, but what did you think of the movie?” 23:48
The movie was good because it was based on fact even though it was a fictional story and
that’s Hollywood and Hollywood eyes. A lot of embellishments that we sit and laugh at
and I think the only thing we were concerned with was in the beginning, when we saw
the move, was a little bit of the language. There wasn’t a lot of that, but we’re thinking
of it in terms of showing young people and I think there’s a version out that doesn’t have
that in and I’m happy about that because it needs to be in the schools and whether it’s
elementary, high school, college or whatever. 24:33
Interviewer: “You will be happy to know that when we first started about doing
this project, the Library of Congress project with women’s baseball, when I talked
to my students and there was not a lot of knowledge about it, but when you said,
League of Their Own, they knew and said, “oh, I loved that movie”, and then I said,
“I’m going to meet the real women” and they went “wow”. I look at it from a
different perspective, I watched the movie and I love tom Hanks and I love Geena
Davis and for me it was more of a Hollywood version, but it did give you the
overview of the experience of walking into that ballpark. eeina Davis walks in and
there’s all those players playing, it had to be close to being real, oh yeah. 25:32
I thought that Penny Marshall was very astute in how it was put together because when I
was in Chicago when we were first asked to come and tryout for six speaking parts and
then we went to Cooperstown and I wondered, “how are they going to do this without
being trite about things and just throw an idiom in there somehow or another and have it
make sense”, but she made sense all the way through, all the way through. There were
integral parts of the story that said what it is and what won support for a lot of us was
when Tom Hanks is talking to Geena Davis when she’s leaving to go to Oregon. Well, I
saw the premieer in Fort Wayne, we had a premiere there and when he said, “of course
it’s hard, if it wasn’t hard, anybody could do it”, well there’s another chest going thing,
but we were quiet, it was so quiet that you could hear all the motors and stuff underneath
that handle everything in that theater. That’s how quiet it was because we were crying.
What I said about having to learn to survive and go through a lot of stuff, that was
another way of saying that, but a way that was acceptable to other people. It helped us to
be acceptable because we went through a lot of unacceptability, but we didn’t let it
change us, it helped us to grow. 27:30
Interviewer: I was moved by that too, in fact I teach writing at Grand Valley and I
say that about writers, the same thing. “It’s hard work and if it was easy,
everybody could do it”. I really felt that too.”
If you are doing what you really love to do, you will do it, no matter how hard it is, but
that makes it what it is or anybody could do it. 28:05
Interviewer: “That was wonderful, that was wonderful.”
19
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
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The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_JBaumgart
Title
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Baumgart, Jacqueline Mattson (Interview transcript and video), 2009
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Baumgart, Jacqueline Mattson
Description
An account of the resource
Jacqueline Baumgart (née Mattson) was born in Waukegan, Illinois. She grew up in Waukegan area and played with the neighborhood boys. She played outfield positions as a kid. In 1942, her family moved to Milwaukee, WI where she played with as a catcher for a few local softball teams. Eventually, she was scouted for the All American Girls Baseball League. At the start of her first spring training she had not been assigned to a team yet. She was eventually assigned to the Springfield Sallies in 1950. She played the 1950 season with them and was then traded to the Kenosha Comets and played the 1951 season with them. One of her main career highlights was having the opportunity to play as a professional in Yankee Stadium.
Contributor
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Women
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-25
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4bfab2b709ffe8b7d8e0af510db9c14.pdf
aad6e9ce47d137423b071422bac06614
PDF Text
Text
The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: Thomas F. Beech
Interviewer: Bonnie Allen
Date: 10/16/06
Time: 37:33
Facilitator: N. Pumilia
Location: Kalamazoo
(1:15) Apache Corporation TB working in Minneapolis, MN. Met the head of the
Minneapolis Foundation, a philanthropic organization. Now works at the Fetzer
Institute
(3:30) Discuss his transition from business world to philanthropy
(5:00) Describe what practices non-profit could adapt from business world
(8:00) Discuss his early mentors and guides, learning forgiveness, listening,
sense of humor, Pastor from Catholic Church: John Gardener, taught that
dialogue was most important aspect of philanthropic work
(12:30) Describes work in Ft. Worth, Texas With Johnny and Shirley Lewis, and
obstacles they overcame
(14:30) Advice to young people interested in philanthropic work. Effective work
is done by those who are passionate about what they do
(19:00) Discusses issues with the people approaching those involved in
philanthropic work, a level of discomfort around the issue of money
(23:00) Power that comes from having money can be a difficult aspect of being a
philanthropist
(25:30) Heart of philanthropy, grew out of courage to teach: a program designed
to teach teachers how to teach from their own unique person
(27:30) Retreats take to encourage dialogue and storytelling amongst groups of
co-workers
(29:00) work with law and society has work in Kalamazoo
(30:00) Discusses how he came to work for Fetzer Institute. Focused on the
“power of love and forgiveness” reconciling inner and outer life, what is deeply
important to us to how/where we live, who we live with
(34:00) Discusses connectedness and similarity disconcerted between mission
and work of Fetzer with other organizations
�(35:00) Talks about the importance of story telling and individual experiences to
the work
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d18c3b007eec62c93cc30a056f30fce9.mp3
9fe9e6399d6581536f522e8350255442
Dublin Core
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Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews
Subject
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Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives
Family foundations--Michigan
Charities--Michigan
Description
An account of the resource
The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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2017-05-02
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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Sound
Text
Moving Image
Language
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eng
Type
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
video/mp4
Identifier
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JCPA-08
Coverage
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2006-2008
Creator
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Johnson Center for Philantrhopy
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StoryCorps (Project)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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JCPA-08_Beech-Allen
Title
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Conversation with Tom Beech and Bonnie Allen
Creator
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Beech, Tom
Description
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Bonnie Allen, attorney at the Center for Healing and the Law, interviews her colleague Tom Beech, President & CEO of The Fetzer Institute in Kalamazoo, Michigan, about his history in philanthropy and what he's learned along the way, including: dialogue being the most important aspect of philanthropy; the most effective work is done by people who are passionate about what they do; that the power that comes from having philanthropic dollars can be difficult; and that storytelling is critical to the work of philanthropy.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives
Family foundations--Michigan
Charities--Michigan
Fetzer Institute
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Source
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Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews
Relation
A related resource
Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sound Portraits Productions
StoryCorps (Project)
Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives
Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2006-10-16
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4104ebfdbffd1447b36d087807b92e25.pdf
4612d87fb5ee4f075e4db9695a6a41c1
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History Collections, RHC-23
Josephine Bender
Interviewed on September 9, 1971
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape 1 & 2 (30:40)
Biographical Information:
Josephine Bender was born 17 April 1894 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, the daughter of Charles
Henry Bender and Sally Knapp. Josephine died aged 101 years old on 26 March 1996 in Grand
Rapids. She and her parents are buried in Oak Hill Cemetery.
Charles Henry Bender was born 11 September 1860 in Batavia, Genesee County, New York, the
son of William Bender and Josephine Hamberger. The parents were born in Bavaria and Baden,
respectively. Charles Bender came to Grand Rapids in 1881. He died 28 March 1936. Charles
married Sally Knapp 5 February 1891. She was born in 1871 in New Orleans, Louisiana, the
daughter of Theodore J. Knapp and (_____). Sally died in 1953.
___________
Interviewer: Where did you grow up as a child?
Miss Bender: I grew up in Grand Rapids and I was born in a street called Terrace Avenue,
which was an extension of Prospect Street, south of Wealthy. There was one block in there
which was all built up, beyond that, it was mostly vacant lots and an occasional house here and
there. A good many prominent people in Grand Rapids, at that time, lived there. For instance,
the Wilder Stevens lived on that block. He was in Foster Stevens [Foster, Stevens & Company],
which was the big china, silverware, and that sort of thing store. Then there were the Leonards,
the Frank Leonards, Mr. Leonard had another big china store. The Mormans, they were the big,
or one of the big, coal companies S.A. Morman & Company. The parsonage for the Baptist
Church was right across the street from our house. I can remember that there was a Mr. Randall
[Rev. John Herman Randall] who was the minister, very popular man. A good many people
came up there of the evening to get married. My father would be sitting on the front porch in his
smoking jacket and slippers in the evening and Mr. Randall would come across the street and
say, “Bender, come on over and stand up with these two.” So, my father [Charles H. Bender]
would go over and be the best man, for someone he had never seen before. It was a very
interesting block. Then just north of Wealthy, it was almost all a Dutch population. That was
where Kos’s grocery store got started, it being, to begin with, just a little addition on the front of
the Kos’s house. They had things like needles and thread and bread (there wasn’t much bread
bought at that time). Yeast cakes I remember well because I was always being sent over for a
yeast cake or two. There was a very fine street of substantial Dutch (Holland) people.
Interviewer: Now the neighborhood that you lived in, was that, you said a very short street?
�2
Miss Bender: Yes, it [Terrace Avenue] was only between Wealthy & Logan.
Interviewer: About how many families lived on that street?
Miss Bender: I suppose maybe twenty families lived on that street. They all owned their homes,
of course, they didn’t change hands much. Much of the neighborhood life consisted of going
over of an evening and sitting on somebody’s porch. There was a good deal of exchanging of
food. Someone who had had a particularly good pie made well, they would take it over. If there
was anything the matter with anybody then everybody took things to them, and saw that they
were all right. It was probably more of a neighborhood because it was somewhat isolated than I
would imagine, maybe, some other streets were here. It was a real closely knit little community;
it was part of what was known as the Penney Addition. There was an old Colonel [Joseph]
Penney, a Colonel in the Civil War, who bought up a great deal of property, and it would all have
been south of Wealthy and about from Jefferson up to Morris, or College, along in there. This
was known as the Penney Addition. Colonel Penney lived on the corner of Lafayette and
Wealthy. He was very proud of the children. He would always talk about the wonderful children
in the Penney Addition. Very few people in that neighborhood had horses. The street cars went
down Wealthy. There was the Wealthy-Taylor Line, and the Wealthy-Scribner Line, and they
both went down Wealthy. If you didn’t walk, which most people did, you took the street car, and
then you would have to transfer frequently, but both these street cars, or both these lines, went
down to Monroe Street, which was where everybody headed for shopping. But, I really can’t
remember anybody in that block that owned horses. The kids had a lot of pets. We had a goat,
which we had a little vehicle, known as a “do-se-do”, which we harnessed the goat to, and rode
around. Everything was fine until the goat ate the neighbor’s laundry (the wash that was out one
day), so unfortunately we then had to give up Billy, the goat. But, everybody of course had dogs,
and everybody had a lovely garden. The lots happened to be quite deep on that street, and there
were beautiful gardens in the back, and some at the side.
Interviewer: Do you think the close-knit fabric in that neighborhood was due to its being
somewhat isolated?
Miss Bender: Somewhat, yes, I think so. I think of Madison Avenue, which was more of a
through street, more built up further to the south than this little block of Terrace Ave. was.
Although they were friendly, I think for one thing this was a rather narrow street, the street itself
was fairly narrow. I do think that had something to do with it. It was a block that people wanted
to live in. I remember the [J. Boyd] Pantlinds. I suppose they built the house which actually was
the one I was born in. The Pantlinds moved up on College at that time, and so my parents bought
that house. That one was little, not quite as large, I guess, as the one we lived in for probably ten
or twelve more years after I was born, and then we moved next door. But, people were always
wanting to move into that neighborhood. It was very closely knit.
Interviewer: What business was your father in?
�3
Miss Bender: Well, at that time my father was a court stenographer. He came here from Batavia,
New York.
Interviewer: Excuse me, what county is Batavia in?
Miss Bender: Very near Buffalo, Genesee County, New York. He went to work when he was
fourteen years old, I know, and he went to Buffalo to work. He worked in a place where they had
just invented the typewriter. At this time, he was a boy, probably around fifteen or sixteen along
there some place, and he was put in the window. He always told this story, about how he was put
in the window of this store where they had this strange thing known as a typewriter, and he was
made to work the typewriter in the window. Of course he didn’t know one key from the other,
but it didn’t make any difference what he wrote. Large crowds of people would gather, and he
would get in more flourishes as time went on, he said, pounding the keys. That got him into this
kind of business because, of course, shorthand had been invented. There was an opening here.
There was a Mr. [Melbourne H.] Ford who had a stenography and shorthand office, and he [Mr.
Ford] went into Congress.
Interviewer: Went into Congress?
Miss Bender: It made an opening. He wanted someone to come into the office. In some way, I
don’t know, my father heard about it and so he came out here. That was about 1883 or 1884, or
somewhere around there [Ford served in Congress 1885-1886]
Interviewer: Down at the library when reading some of those old history books of Grand Rapids,
where they would give profiles, autobiographical profiles on some of these old people, I noticed
that a considerable number of them came New York, and particularly out of Otsego County,
New York. I was just wondering whether you know why so many of these people came from
New York.
Miss Bender: One thing, of course, that brought a great many people to this part of the country
was the Erie Canal. Because, they could put their household goods on barges and go down the
Erie Canal. Of course they would go into Ohio, not coming directly to Michigan, but then they
came up from Ohio. I can remember quite a few old pieces of furniture in my friends’ houses and
they would say this came with my grandfather on the Erie Canal. I think this opened up a great
deal of migration from New York State. My father didn’t happen to come that way, but I can
remember a lot of people that said that their ancestors, their grandparents usually, had come that
way.
Interviewer: What did your father do then?
Miss Bender: He established an office here and was a court stenographer. He had an interesting
time because the judges would go all around in Michigan on their circuits holding court, and my
father would go along with them, and many of them became his very close friends and many of
�4
the leading lawyers did, for that reason, because they would go, too. He would usually go
Monday morning and he’d be gone all week. Newaygo was one place he went where they held
court, then he’d go as far as, well, I know he went to Marquette a great deal. He learned a great
deal of law that way. Eventually he became a banker. He went into what was known then as the
Grand Rapids National Bank. They were the ones who built the McKay Towers. It was during
the time my father was in the bank they built the McKay Towers, which it’s now called. But it
was always called the Grand Rapids National Bank Building
Interviewer: So, it was a bank building at one time?
Miss Bender: Oh yes, it was built as a bank. It was tall and very exciting.
Interviewer: Would you tell me the story again about when you father was on the Police and Fire
Commission?
Miss Bender: Well, that was part of the city government at that time, and it was very much
coveted thing to be on the Police and Fire Commission. He was an ardent Democrat, when there
were practically no Democrats to be found in the state of Michigan, but he was one of them. It
was, probably, a Democrat mayor who appointed him. I think, he was appointed during the
nineties [1890’s]. At one time very early in his career as a commissioner, they had an unfortunate
thing happen, in which the fire department, which of course was horse-drawn at that time, was
called to a fire along someplace on Monroe Street. At that time the Salvation Army held nightly
meetings down on Campau Square. The Salvation Army was down there tooting away on their
horns and holding their meeting and all of a sudden the fire department came tearing down what
was known as Canal Street the (later know as Lower Monroe) and turned the corner. The man
that was driving the horses saw that if he kept in the street, he would simply run right over the
Salvation Army, so he went up onto the sidewalk which was against all the rules, and bypassed
the Salvation Army and got to the fire. In 1936, our house burned, and we were living on College
at that time. My father had died the spring before and we had this very bad fire. They did heroic
work in saving what they could. Well, my mother was very grateful and so she called the chief of
the fire department and he [the Chief] said, “Oh, Mrs. Bender. I’ve been waiting for many, many
years to repay an old debt.” Then he told her what had happened the time that my father had
sponsored his cause and pleaded his cause with the department. He had been discharged for
doing this awful thing. My father pleaded his cause so enthusiastically that the man was
reinstated, but a fine had to be paid, and I believe he said that my father went so far as to pay the
fine for him. So he said, “It’s been many, many years, probably forty or more,” and he said, “I’ve
just waited to repay that debt, and I’m glad I could have done what I did.”
Interviewer: The Fire Chief was the one who ran the horses up on the sidewalk?
Miss Bender: Yes. He said he was a young man at that point, of course. He was reinstated
because of my father’s eloquent pleas, and he advanced so that at the time of the fire in 1936, he
was the chief of the fire department.
�5
Interviewer: You mentioned taking the streetcar downtown, what did people go downtown for
mainly?
Miss Bender: I can remember that it seems to me we made a daily trip downtown. There were
things to be bought at the dry goods stores. There was a good deal of personal shopping to do
that went on then, and I think also it was kind of exciting to go down and see what was going on.
There was a dry goods store, which is now out of existence, which was called Friedman-Spring,
which was down on Campau Square about where one of the 5 & 10 stores is now, Grants or
along in there. It was a very good store. In the store they of course had all kinds of departments.
The people were in them, year after year, and they grew old clerking in these stores. We used to
go to that one a great deal. Then the Boston store was right next door to it. That was run by a Mr.
[Charles] Trankla and owned by him. That was also a very good department store. Then there
was Steketee’s, which was where it is now. There was Wurzburg’s, which was on lower Monroe.
Well, it’s all been torn down now, it was down by Crescent on Lower Monroe. Then [here was]
Herpolsheimers which was where Wurzburg’s downtown store is now. Those were the main
department stores. Then there was a wonderful candy store named Miss Peale’s and it was run by
Miss Peale and, I think, her sister. That would have been up a little east of Ionia on the south side
of Monroe. I know she was open on Sundays because the Post Office was open on Sunday. If
you wanted to go and walk to the post office and get your mail, which my father did every
Sunday after church, and a great many other people did, you would walk down to the post office
and then you would stop at Miss Peale’s and buy a box of candy. There was a wonderful
chocolate candy called Allegrete. I can remember this was the great treat of the week when we
would, after getting the mail at the post office, stop at Miss Peale’s and buy the pound box of
Allegrete chocolates.
Interviewer: Where was the post office located?
Miss Bender: The post office was located where the Federal building still is on the corner of
Pearl and Ionia. Of course, at that time it was not what the present building is. It was a smaller
building. I know that the present building was built around 1908 or 1910, along in there. But, it
was in that same location. There was another very interesting place that was along there on Ionia,
where the Shepard garage used to be. It was called Lockerby’s Hall. I think the hall was on the
second floor. A great many things were held there. Among other things, I can remember my
parents telling me they learned to bicycle there. They had an indoor bicycling rink. This is where
they went because, of course, bicycling was very popular around the nineties and around the turn
of the century. My father apparently, made one trip around and ran into the wall, breaking the
bicycle. That was the end of bicycling with him. But there was a great deal of bicycling that went
on. I can remember this Lockerby’s Hall. Then there was Power’s Theatre where the Midtown is
now, in the same building really. That was where the legitimates came. Grand Rapids was a great
theatre place, one reason being that we were midway between Detroit and Chicago. They would
do a “split” week. They would usually stop in Jackson for part of the week and do the rest of the
week here in Grand Rapids. Companies that played in Detroit and were going to play long
�6
engagements in these places, they were going to Chicago, so then they would stop off here. We
had the great stars, they all came here. I think one reason is they liked it a lot here because by
this time what used to be called Sweet’s Hotel had turned into the Pantlind and Mr. Boyd
Pantlind, who was a most delightful, genial person, was the proprietor of it. He became great
friends of all these leading actors. I think they would sort of arrange it to be sure they came to
Grand Rapids. I had a lovely collection of autographed photographs that these men had given
Mr. Pantlind over the years—Crane, Joe Jefferson, and all those great old actors. Mrs. Pantlind
gave it to me after Mr. Pantlind had died. She gave me the collection of photographs. I gave
them to the Civic Theatre, and just where they are now, I don’t know. I am sure that [Mr.
Pantlind’s friendship] was one reason we got wonderful plays here. Of course, it was
geographically important too, their stopping here. I’m sure. Now, then, over here on Reed Drive
there was Ramona. Now whether that was really going on at the turn of the century, I don’t
know; but very soon afterwards, certainly. The Pavilion, which was on the corner of Wealthy and
Lakeside, was owned by the Street Railway Company, and they had wonderful vaudeville here,
all the big vaudeville acts were here. I’ve always heard one reason why they also wanted to come
here was because, on the south side of Reed’s Lake, there was a little resort thing called Point
Paulo. I don’t know who ran it, maybe Mr. Paulo for all I know. Anyway, he had a series of
cottages and this was a wonderful place for them to come and stay for a week. They always
stayed for a whole week. They could be out on the Lake during the daytime, fishing and all.
(Pause in tape)
Interviewer: Did you ever come up to the vaudeville shows?
Miss Bender: Every week. The Pavilion was a very pleasant place. I know they had boxes along
both sides, with rattan chairs in them that were very comfortable and loungy, in the main part. I
don’t remember that there was a balcony. There may have been, but [this was] the main part of
the auditorium. All around it was all open and there were little soft drink places and that sort of
thing along the outside beyond the auditorium part. But it was a most pleasant place to spend an
evening and also see very good vaudeville. That was all part of Ramona, which was an
amusement park with roller coasters and Tunnels of Love and that sort of thing. [To go] back
you took the Wealthy-Taylor Line. That was the only thing that came out to it. It was very well
patronized, [and] went for many, many years.
Interviewer: Were there very many people living out in this area at the time?
Miss Bender: No, all of Reed’s Lake, where these lovely homes are around the outside of the
lake now, had a lot of cottages, but they would be just little (quite flimsy, I suppose) cottages that
people came to in the summertime, some place to go weekends. There were no permanent homes
at that time. Of course, East Grand Rapids was, I guess, non-existent. There were two things,
there was the O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club, which I think was called the Lake Side Club to begin with,
and that was over here on the shores of Reed’s Lake. That was a very popular club. They had a
�7
very good orchestra and excellent food. There was a good deal of boating went on. Speaking of
boating, most of the boating on Reed’s Lake, aside of the fishing and that sort of thing, were
these two steamers. One was the” Major Watson” and the other was the “Hazel A. Major
[Amasa B.] Watson” was a prominent Civil War veteran here and he lived in a big house down
where Jacobsen’s downtown place is now. The “Hazel A.” was named for Hazel Amberg. They
were a very prominent family here. Those two boats plied around Reed’s Lake, all day long, I
guess. There was a big kind of banner along the side that said, “AS LONG AS YOU LIKE FOR
TEN CENTS.” So you could get on in the morning and keep going. Over at what is still called
Manhattan Road there was a (?) My grandmother used to take my brother and myself out on the
Wealthy-Taylor streetcar. She loved the water and she loved these trips. So, I think we’d go and
spend the whole afternoon. There was a captain, the so-called captain of one of them, an old
character That was around here. He was always known as “Mr. Poison.” His name was spelled
P-o-i-s-s-o-n. My grandmother was Southern and so we would come home and my father would
say, “Mother, what did you today?” She’d say, Oh, I took the children for a lovely ride with
Captain Poisson.” My father would say, “Do you mean “Old Poison?” This would go on every
time we made the trip, “Old Poison” to my father but “Captain Poisson” [John H. Poisson] to my
mother. Then of course there was Rose’s, which still is in existence. Old Mr. Rose taught
swimming. He had a dock. It was kind of a catwalk that went out from the shore and this rather
long dock. His method of teaching swimming was to put a belt around your middle and a rope
from the back part of the belt. He would hang on to that, and then you would float like a minnow
on the water and he would count. I can hear him now; he would say, “One, two, three, one, two,
three.” This was how you would learn to do the breast stroke for Mr. Rose. That was also where
the skating was in the winter. Rose’s had this building. You would go in there to change your
skates. In there, there was an old pot- belly stove. Then you would go down a kind of little
gangplank that you went down, a little wooden thing. I suppose it was Rose’s who cleared the
skating rink, because I am sure nobody else did. But, that was where we skated in the winter.
(Pause in tape)
Miss Bender: Do you want me to start over again?
Interviewer: Sure, if you want to.
Miss Bender: Well you were asking me about some old furniture I have here. It came mostly
from my grandmother who was a Southerner. She and my grandfather were married during the
Civil War. She was actually put through the lines, war lines were very loose, I guess, during the
Civil War. He was a Confederate. She, in some way, was given a pass to go through the lines,
because the part of North Carolina she was living in was occupied by Northern troops. They
were married. Then after the war, this was in a place called Edenton, North Carolina, which was
on the sea coast, my grandfather [Theodore J. Knapp] came back there and had a parish there.
This probably was the late seventies, around seventy-five or eighty maybe. At that time oil was
discovered in Pennsylvania, so he went there as a minister to all of these mushroom towns that
�8
sprang up as a result. He was there for quite a number of years, about four or five maybe. Then
the men who had gone in to the oil rush lost interest, and I think the oil business sort of gave out.
Just at this time, gold and silver were discovered in Colorado. So, all these men he had
ministered to began writing him from Colorado and telling him how he was needed out there;
and I’m sure he had an “itching” for it. So he “felt the call” to go. He went down the Ohio River
and then down [sic] the Mississippi to St. Louis and over land from St. Louis eventually to
Denver. I have all the letters which he wrote my grandmother, who was left back in Pennsylvania
with the four children and practically nothing to live on, as far as I could make out. He was a
very brilliant person. All these letters were very encouraging to Granny that at any moment then
he would get a real parish. At this point he was a Baptist, and “Brother This” and “Brother That,”
as they seemed to be called in these parishes, were always about to get a great plan for him; but
this took quite a while. He adored Colorado, absolutely fascinated by it. This was Denver in the
very early days, with Indians riding through the streets and the streets were just little tracks,
really. He talked about how dirty and dusty it was. Finally he did get a parish and Granny and the
children went from Pennsylvania out there. I can remember one of the letters said, “Don’t bring a
lot of kitchen equipment and things like that but remember all the theological books.” Granny,
equipped with four children and the furniture she wanted to keep that had come from her family,
went out there. He then became an Episcopalian minister and took the examination and was duly
ordained as an Episcopalian minister. He got a parish in a place called Ouray which is way up
there. Fascinating place; there were marvelous mines at that point around there. So, they went up
there. He built a little church. During his ministry they had no church. He got this church built
during the time he was minister there. My mother and father and I went back there one time, and
here was this cute little stone church that they said my grandfather had been instrumental in
having built. It just happened that they had a service on the Sunday we were there, and we asked
if there was anybody who would have known my grandfather. They said there was one man left.
It was a ghost town when we were out there, just nothing. But there was this one man, a Mr.
Simpson, who was a surveyor. My grandfather used to go out on these trips with him (?). “Well,
I guess the only reason that I stayed was I was too lazy to get out, and I loved the country.” So he
stayed all these years there. This was in the twenties. He said, “I’ve got a little present I want to
give Sally (Sally [Knapp] was my mother’s name) and another for Josephine.” So he gave me
some uncut garnets which I thought were very precious, quite a handful of them. Then he said to
my mother, I want to give you this stone.” Madame Curie at that point was working on uranium.
He had had a meeting with her in Denver when she came to this country. We took our treasures
away and I put mine in a safety deposit box because I thought they were so valuable. When the
atomic bomb took place, uranium was all over the front pages. I read my mother this article from
the New York Times all about it, and it told about the few deposits that there were in this country
and that one of them was very near Ouray. My mother said, “Well, I must get my uranium out.” I
thought, oh heavens, what’s she talking about? So I said, “Now mother, I’m going to read this
article all over to you again and explain it once more She said, “I understand. You know Mr.
Simpson gave me a piece of uranium.” So she went into desk, and done up in a piece of Kleenex
�9
was this piece of uranium, which then became very important in Grand Rapids. It was shown in
the museum and all kinds of places.
Interviewer: In the summertime, some people came out to Reed’s Lake. Where did the other
people go; where did they spend their summers?
Miss Bender: A lot of people had cottages on Lake Michigan, even then. There was an
interurban line that went to Grand Haven and also to Muskegon. I can remember going down to
visit people who had places on Lake Michigan on the interurban. Then there was a train that
went to Ottawa Beach and a great many people had cottages at Ottawa Beach. This train used to
come up in the morning and go down at night. It was a kind of dummy line. I know we had a
place down at Ottawa Beach for quite a number of summers. The men used to go up on the train
in the morning and come down at night. I think that to all these small lakes around here all up
through northern Michigan the G.R.& I. (Grand Rapids and Indiana Railroad) was the railroad
that went up there; and also the Pere Marquette. We were a number of summers in Charlevoix
and I can remember going up, that was on the Pere Marquette, but the G.R.& I. also went up
north. Those were the days when it was fun to go on a train, you know, the parlor cars and the
dining cars. I think there was quite a lot of activity on the Grand River. The “Boat and Canoe” is
still in existence, I guess, isn’t it?
Interviewer: I think it’s the American Legion Club, isn’t it?
Miss Bender: Yes, I guess it is. That was a very popular club for a long time. It was known as the
Boat and Canoe Club. Exactly when that was I don’t know. That must have been soon after
1900, along in there. They had very good tennis courts, they used to have tennis tournaments,
State and Western Michigan. Then there was a great deal of boating, canoeing. Quite a number
of people had house-boats out there. They would live on the houseboats, and be kind of hooked
up at the dock of the Boat and Canoe Club. Of course there use to be steamers that went down
the Grand River to Grand Haven. I think they have one now that is a sort of excursion boat.
Interviewer: What kind of steamers were they, were they paddle wheel boats?
Miss Bender: I think so, I don’t remember going on them. People also had places on the [river].
The Kelsey family had one of those houses down in Eastmanville.
We use to go down there a good deal with them. That was a matter of going on the interurban to
what is called Marne now. It was called Berlin until the First World War, then you couldn’t call
anything Berlin, so the name was then changed to Marne. I remember they use to come over;
they would come over there and get us and drive us back. There was quite a number of people,
the Hefferan family here had several houses along there. The Foote family had houses along
there. They were all old houses that they fixed up or converted somewhat—lovely old houses.
Interviewer: Are any of those old houses still standing?
�10
Miss Bender: Oh, yes they all are. I think they’re all still there. They were beautifully located.
But at that time you didn’t have to do much, except to be in one place. I can remember they had
sheep, and Ann Kelseyhas a little lamb that really followed you. Well, it was exciting enough to
go and give the lamb a bath in the Grand River. That was really all the excitement you needed.
There was a good deal of card playing as part of the entertainment here. There were a lot of
Whist Clubs. This was before the days of Bridge Auction Bridge. But there was a great deal of
whist and a great deal of Euchre. There was a thing called Military Euchre where you advance
from one table to another with a flag in your hand. I remember my parents belonged to it, the
Military Euchre Club. That was a great deal of the entertainment in those days where the various
card clubs were.
Interviewer: What other clubs were there?
Miss Bender: What developed into the Kent County Country Club was first, where the
clubhouse is, the M.R. Bissell, the present M.R. Bissell, house on the corner of Plymouth and
Wealthy, on the northeast of Plymouth and Wealthy. And then the golf course was where
Blodgett Hospital is. They had a nine hold golf course. This was one of the very early golf
courses in this country. There were a few men here, one being Mr. Edward Lowe, who was an
Englishman, He had known golf in England--Scotland I suppose. There a few men who had
heard about golf, mostly in England, I think. So, they started this club. The clubhouse was really
the present M.R. Bissell house, and then the golf course was across the street of Wealthy where
Blodgett Hospital and all that area in around 1899 or there abouts, what was called Sweet Farm,
out where Kent Country Club is now, was nothing but a farm house and wheat fields and grazing
ground and all that. It went along Knapp Avenue and Plainfield, about the area it has now. They
established this club and a very good golf course [with an] architect lay-out and the club was
started. After that the next club was Highlands Country Club which is the Elks Club over on
West Leonard. That was the next one, and then I think Cascade was the one after that.
Interviewer: Were there quite a few social functions held at these country clubs or was it just
golf?
Miss Bender: Oh no, it was very social. They were very fortunate at Kent Country Club. Very
early they got this couple, Ida, who was the cook, and Walter, her husband, who was the general
other factotum. She had been a cook as a very young person, who still was very young, with the
Wanty family, the Judge [George P]. Wanty family. Then, they wanted a couple out to run the
club, so Ida and Walter took the job. They were simply wonderful because she didn’t know too,
too much about cooking to begin with but she was one to never say she didn’t know how to do
anything. There were a certain number of women, Mrs. Clay Hollister, Mrs. Dudley Waters,
and my mother, and they said their husbands were all officers and directors of the Club and they
were anxious to have everything go well. So they said, “Now Ida, we will always give you a
hand and help you with everything you want. I always remember the time when Mrs. John
Blodgett was giving a very elegant luncheon for somebody from away, that was going to be here.
�11
Ida called my mother up and said “Mrs. Bender, Mrs. Blodgett is having a luncheon on
Thursday.” My mother said, “Yes, I know.” She said, “She asked me to have soft-shelled crabs.”
She said, “I never even seen one, but,” she said, I wouldn’t say I didn’t know how to fix
them.”So I [sic] said, “Oh yes indeed, they will have to have soft-shelled crabs”. So, she said,
“What do I do?”Then mother said, “Ida, you get the soft-shelled crabs from Dettenthalers,
(which was the great fish market down on (117) Monroe Street) and be sure they’re crawling and
I’ll take the streetcar out and show you how to fix them”. Ida said, “Are you going to the
luncheon?” “Oh yes,” my mother said. “I’m going to the luncheon, but I’ll come out in the
morning”. Well, going on the streetcar from where we were living at that point, on Terrace
Avenue, consisted of going on the Wealthy-Taylor Line then transferring to the Plainfield Line,
then transferring to a funny little thing called Carrier Line, which went from Plainfield Avenue
up to College and out College to the Country Club, and then turned around and went back. So
my mother, nothing daunting, and I know this trip used to take at least three-quarters of an hour
(we always allowed three-quarters of an hour), went out to show Ida how to fix the soft-shelled
crabs. She took the street car back, then took the hack, which was the means of conveyance when
you were going elegantly to something. So, she ordered the hack and the hack came and took her
out to the luncheon, where she ate the soft-shelled crabs. But it was a wonderful club, it had a
wonderful spirit because everybody was enthusiastic and wanted it to go well. I have a lot of
pictures of it of those early days. You can’t believe it now, it looks like a park, you know, in
comparison on to this, what was really just fields. Trees were planted but they were little things.
But they had a terribly good time and awfully, awfully good spirit and lots of parties.
Interviewer: It sounds like living in those days was a very pleasant, relaxed way of living. What
happened to that society, that style of living when the depression came along?
Miss Bender: Well, when the depression came along, life had become much more sophisticated
then it was. I have been talking more or less about things of the turn of the century. When the
Depression came along we, after all, had been through one war. That put an entirely different
light on everything, the First World War. Everybody pitched into war work, and things were
certainly never the same after that. Then came the twenties, which were absolutely wild. I was
young at that point, and was probably in on what it did to young people and the way it changed
their way of living. I mean, I had been utterly unsophisticated before the twenties. Prohibition
had a great effect because, you know, whereas you hadn’t had very many drinks up to that point,
then it became exciting to do it. You would go to New York and you’d go to speakeasies and it
was all a completely different kind of thing. Then of course, the Depression came along. Really
the depression, as I look back on it, crept up on you very slowly. Now I wonder if, you know, if
it’s creeping up on us now the way it did then. After all, the crash came in ’29, but it was several
years before the banks were closed. That in itself took quite a while. The impact of it took quite a
while because you really didn’t realize it. I can remember my father was the type of person who
never had five dollars on his person, and although he was a banker, at the moment he didn’t seem
to have any money on him. So I remember, he said to my mother, “Now Sally, you’re the kind
�12
that would have about one hundred in cash in your safety deposit box.” My mother wouldn’t
admit it for a while, but finally she said, “Well yes, I have put a little cash in my safety deposit
box.” So, I remember we all lived off her for quite a while. You couldn’t believe it, really when
it finally happened. Then, of course, with Roosevelt giving everybody a great deal of hope, really
kind of pulling you out of it. To me it was more the twenties.
(Pause in tape)
Interviewer: You have marked the end of one social era, so to speak, not the depression, but the
First World War. Why do you think it had such a dramatic effect on people?
Miss Bender: Well, because for one thing it had been such an easy life. I can remember Mr.
[Samuel A. Morman saying to my father, during my father’s last illness, he said, “You know,
Bender, any man that had half a brain and any kind of ambition could have been successful
during our era.” This was true. During the nineties and up to 1914 or 1916, any man who was
willing to work, where in many times since then I’m sure it hasn’t stood people in good stead.
You had certain principles that you lived by, and if you lived by them, why, you came out all
right. And it wasn’t easy at times, as we look back on it now. I mean, people didn’t have a great
deal of money most of them. But, on what they could live comfortably and Grand Rapids was a
wonderful community, I think largely because of the Dutch people we have, who were thrifty
and saving and law-abiding. So everything was going along better and better and better. Then we
were certainly influenced by the war in Europe before we got into it. But then once we were in it,
everybody was Red Crossing, in the YMCA, Liberty Bonds were being sold, and rallies were
being held. As I recall, there was very little social life, because everybody was throwing
themselves {sic} into the war effort. And for one thing, I guess you were kind of tired when they
came. So that was the thing that was a turning point. Then when the war was over, certainly
beginning around 1920, everything went sort of, kind of, wild. You know, it was a reaction for
one thing. Of course, then suddenly there was much more money because there hadn’t been a
great deal of production of anything but war stuff during the war. Then suddenly everybody was
getting all kinds of things. I’m sure it was when we all had our first washing machine and
mangle. I don’t think, well, I know we didn’t have an electric refrigerator at that point. But you
were buying a good many more things like that. There was a great deal of travel then, too. People
were always going places. You were not able to go to Europe for quite a while. There was a great
deal of European travel at that time. That made a difference. Planes didn’t come along, of course,
until later, but the trains were excellent. You could go any place and really in great comfort and
luxury and all. Then of course automobiles, many people got their first automobiles along in that
period. That made a lot of difference.
Interviewer: Things were not the same after the war?
Miss Bender: No. I’m sure the automobile, of course, had an awful lot to do with it. You didn’t
live in these little neighborhood communities which were very pleasant and completely
�13
satisfying before that. But when the automobile came along, then you were dashing off to New
York and then dashing off to Chicago, and dashing off to Lake Michigan. If you were real
courageous, you took a trip East. You know, it took you away, then from the local center.
Interviewer: I think that’s a good point [on which] to end.
INDEX
B
Bender, Charles H. (Father) · 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12
Bender, Sally Knapp (Mother) · 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12
Bissell, M.R. · 10
Blodgett, Mrs. John · 10
Boat and Canoe Club · 9
K
Kelsey Family · 9
Kelsey, Ann · 10
Kent County Country Club · 10
Knapp, Grandmother · 8
Knapp, Theodore J. (Grandfather) · 3, 7, 8
Kos’s Grocery Store · 1
C
Curie, Marie · 8
D
L
Leonards Family · 1
Lockerby’s Hall · 5
Lowe, Edward · 10
Dettenthalers · 11
M
F
Foote Family · 9
Ford, Melbourne H. · 3
Foster Stevens & Company · 1
Friedman-Spring Dry Goods Store · 5
G
Grand Rapids National Bank · 4
H
Hazel A Steamer · 7
Hefferan Family · 9
Herpolsheimers · 5
Highlands Country Club · 10
Hollister, Mrs. Clay · 10
Major Watson Steamer · 7
Military Euchre Club · 10
O
Ottawa Beach · 9
O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club · 6
P
Pantlind, Boyd · 6
Pantlind, Mrs. · 6
Pantlinds Family · 2
Peale, Miss · 5
Penney, Colonel Joseph · 2
Point Paulo · 6
Poisson, Captain · 7
Prohibition · 11
�14
R
T
Randall, Rev. John Herman · 1
Reed’s Lake · 6, 9
Rose, Mr. · 7
The Police and Fire Commission · 4
The Salvation Army · 4
Trankla, Charles · 5
S
W
S.A. Morman & Company · 1
Simpson, Mr. · 8
Steketee’s · 5
Street Railway Company · 6
Wanty Family · 10
Waters, Mrs. Dudley · 10
Wilder Stevens Family · 1
Wurzburg’s · 5
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6186bdf5047707329090825cecda8092.mp3
48ccb5bdc64bb5637eb301ee176018c7
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Title
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
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Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
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Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
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Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
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Various
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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application/pdf; audio/mp3
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eng
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RHC-23
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1971 - 1977
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RHC-23_1-2Bender
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Bender, Josephine
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Bender, Josephine
Description
An account of the resource
Josephine Bender was born on April 17, 1894 in Grand Rapids. She graduated from Vassar College and was a member of the Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club. She died on March 26, 1996.
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
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Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Women
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Text
Sound
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application/pdf
audio/mp3
Source
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Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/490e1497047331e64d3437312e50baae.m4v
927e1623046c85ddc5c33a69177edc9a
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c7dfc7381049ee5a58128fc11b5ebdd3.pdf
15cb008424c9d04bd19243d22c5f4fd6
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Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girl’s Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Maybelle Blair
Length of Interview: (00:38:58)
Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27,
2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 8, 2010
Born: 1917 Longvale, CA
Resides: Palm Desert, CA
Interviewer: “ Maybelle, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself. To
start with, where were you born?”
I was born in Longvale, California, which is right next to the LAX Airport.
Interviewer: “What year was that?”
1927
Interviewer: “Wow, you would never know.”
Absolutely not.
Interviewer: “At that point, what did your family do for a living?”
My father was in charge of a park in Englewood, California. He started it off with the
CC Camp and he was very fortunate to get the job and my mother was a housewife. 1:01
Interviewer: “How many kids were in the family?”
Two.
Interviewer: “Was your father able to keep his job through the thirties?”
Yes, absolutely, that’s what saved us because we did go through the depression and we
were very, very, very poor.
Interviewer: “At what point did you start playing organized sports or even
disorganized sports?”
Oh, probably when I was about nine years old, because my brother, whom I worshiped
and was seven years older than I, loved baseball, so naturally, guess what? Little sister
was right behind him and followed him every step of the way and he would tell me to go
home, but when the boys needed to have somebody at their batting practice, that was the
1
�time that I could play and I could go and shag the balls, which was very fortunate, I
thought.. 1:49
Interviewer: “Did you play in pick-up games and things like that too? Did they let
you play at some point?”
Oh yeah, when they needed an extra person, guess who got to play and out in right field
naturally, but at the time it was fun though.
Interviewer: “How did that translate into your playing organized softball? When
did you start that?”
I started probably playing organized softball, probably in 1942. We had little industrial
teams or local teams that they had, I joined that and that was a lot of fun when I was still
in—actually grade school I guess. 2:31
Interviewer: “How old were you, do you think, when you started?”
Probably twelve.
Interviewer: “Did you have a favorite position?”
Yes, second base.
Interviewer: “Could you turn a good double play?”
Oh my, they would hire me today if I was able, but I loved every minute of it, it was a lot
of fun and the double play was great.
Interviewer: “At this point, whom were you playing against?”
Just little local teams, like some market or some department store or something like that.
We had little leagues. 3:06
Interviewer: “How would you get to the games?”
My father would take me and my brother would go along begrudgingly because he didn’t
want to see sister play, it was boring.
Interviewer: “Now, at some point do you move up a level in terms of the league that
you’re playing in?”
Yes, they started opening up a real good semi-pro league in Burbank, California and I
was able to go and play in that league. I was real fortunate to be able to do that and that
was quite exciting for me.
Interviewer: “What year did that start up for you?”
Probably 1942 or 43, right in there.
Interviewer: “So it was about the same time that the All American Girls League
was forming up in Chicago.”
2
�Right, I was still in high school and that’s when that took place.
Interviewer: “Were most of the people that were playing in this league about your
age or were they older?”
Some of them were older, the ones that took off to play in the all American and there
were some that were a little younger, both ways, but I was probably one of the youngest.
4:15
Interviewer: “Now you’re playing with this league, how far a field would you travel
to play your games now, still local?”
All over, and then I started playing with the Pasadena Ramblers and that was a traveling
league during the war and we use to go and play the service men and all over the place.
We went to San Diego, we went to northern California to all of the forts and all the bases
and that was quite a lot of fun because the guy’s got a big kick out of it and we really got
a kick out of it and that’s what we actually did, we went to play them and they had
planned a trip for us to go overseas to play the teams and at that time the war had picked
up and they said no, that it would be too dangerous for us to go, so we stayed home. 5:01
Interviewer: “How does it work? You arrange that you’re going to an army base
or a navy base or someplace, how do they orchestrate that and look after you?”
What they would do was, they would send a bus after us wherever we were or hire a
Greyhound bus or there was another bus line, but I can’t remember what it was at that
particular time, and they would charter that for us and take us down. We would go into
the barracks where the women were and we would get dressed and all that we had to
prepare for and after our ball games they would feed us dinner and the bus would take us
home.
Interviewer: “Were you playing men’s teams or women’s teams?”
Men’s teams, they were all men’s teams. 5:45
Interviewer: “How did the male players react to that?”
Well, they couldn’t believe it, that we could beat them. They thought, “oh god we’ll kill
these women”, but they couldn’t beat us because they weren’t professional ball players, I
mean good ball players, some of them were good ball players, but we would just cream
them and when we did, they couldn’t believe it. Everybody in the stands, all the rest of
the soldiers or navy or sailors or what have you, would just scream and holler at them,
“you sissy, you can’t catch”, you know it was really fun. 6:18
Interviewer: “Now, the All American Girls Baseball League, they had their skirts
and all this kind of stuff. What kind of uniforms did you have?”
We just had shorts and a top and pants also. It was generally satin in those days that we
all wore and that was a lot of fun.
3
�Interviewer: “It was better for sliding into base.”
Absolutely, you would get strawberries and that didn’t feel too good.
Interviewer: “Did you would still get strawberries even with the satin?”
Absolutely, they even had little sliding slides that we had. They had it.
Interviewer: “Now was the softball played with a sort of regulation size baseball
field or a smaller field?”
A regular softball field, and don’t ask me the size of the bases because I can’t remember
that far. 7:04
Interviewer: “Are the distances a little bit shorter than baseball or longer?”
Much shorter.
Interviewer: “So in that way it was similar to what the All American Girls League
was when they started out, when they played shorter dimensions.”
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Now, in softball were you a good hitter?”
A very good hitter and that was one of my strong points. I was a good hitter and I had a
strong arm.
Interviewer: “As a hitter did you hit line drives or long flies?”
Line drives and I could whack the heck out of that thing and it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed
it.
Interviewer: “When you were with the Pasadena Ramblers, what was the farthest
away from home you traveled?”
Probably three hundred miles, north California and San Diego from Los Angeles.
Interviewer: “They weren’t sending you out into the Midwest or anything like
that?”
No, no, no, just the California area, but we hit from northern to southern.
Interviewer: “As you were doing this, did you have any kind of regular job at the
same time or was the team your job?”
I was in high school. 8:15
4
�Interviewer: “You were in high school and were you mostly playing in the summer
when you sere out of school or would they take you out of school to go on these
trips?”
It was during the summertime, during our summer vacation. My mother wouldn’t let me
out of school, period, no matter how I begged.
Interviewer: “Now, how long were you playing in that league?”
I was probably there until 1946 or 1947 when the scout saw me, the Chicago scout saw
me and wanted me to come and play professional softball in Chicago. 8:51
Interviewer: “So there is professional softball in Chicago, was there a league up
there?”
Oh yes, a wonderful league up there, a strictly softball league and we played in the
Chicago area and it was the best part of my life.
Interviewer: “They were scouting the California league you were in, so the scout
says, “you want to come up and play?” did you have to go and clear it with your
parents?”
Oh, are you kidding, that poor guy went through the fifth degree I’ll tell you, I felt sorry
for him. My mother was just a---every question she could think of and he promised and
promised to take good care of me and all I would have to do is put me on the train and he
would pick me up at the other end. 9:41 I would have to write home so often or call
home and that was guaranteed and he saw to it that I did.
Interviewer: “Had you ever taken a long train trip like that before?”
The first time in my life, I couldn’t hardly go to Englewood, California we were so poor,
we didn’t have any money, so that was my very first trip outside of California.
Interviewer: “Do you remember how long it took?”
Probably a day and a half or two days on a train, I can’t remember, but it was exciting.
10:14
Interviewer: “When you got up to Chicago, what did they do with you?”
Well, they met me at the train and they took me to a hotel and I was scared to death
because I was there all by myself and I had never been by myself, so I pushed the dresser
up against the wall and got me four baseballs and a bat and dared anybody to come in my
room. It was really something, I was scared to death and I called my mother and she
said, “I can’t afford this, get off the line”, so I had to cut the conversation pretty close, but
oh my god I was scared. 10:49 I told them, “I can’t do this any longer, I can’t sleep, I
can’t do anything”, so two days later I got my roommate in from Missouri, a gal, and we
5
�became very, very good friends and I was thrilled to death when she came, so she was my
roommate during that period. 11:09
Interviewer: “Was there a specific team that you were assigned to then?”
My assignment was with the Chicago Cardinals and it was a nice team and we had a real
good team.
Interviewer: “Now, did each team have their own home park or were their certain
parks that everyone played in?”
Everybody had their home park.
Interviewer: “What was yours?”
Except for our, that was the only on that didn’t, excuse me. We played at Bidwell
Stadium and Bluebird Park, which Charlie Bidwell owned and his son now runs the
Chicago Cardinals and there were several others.
Interviewer: “They are the Arizona Cardinals these days.”
Yes, the Arizona Cardinals, excuse me. 11:57
Interviewer: “There was a Chicago Cardinals football team.”
Well, that’s the same one. They came out here and are now the Arizona Cardinals and
that’s what he owned.
Interviewer: “Did they pay you much of anything?”
Oh yeah, I was rich, I made sixty dollars a week and my gosh, I had money that wouldn’t
end. I was going to save it and go to college like a lot of us tried to do and I sent some
home to my mother. I was a rich girl because the hotel room was only seven dollars a
week at that time. 12:24
Interviewer: “What did they do in terms of chaperoning you or were you just on
your own?”
Out manager was responsible for us, he and his coaches, and they watched out for us.
They did watch me very closely I’ll tell you, I was bad, I was bad.
Interviewer: “Did you get yourself in trouble?”
I was always in trouble having a good time that was my problem. I loved everybody.
Interviewer: “What were the games like in this league?”
6
�They were wonderful, absolutely wonderful and we had some fantastic ball players like
you see the Olympic teams today, that’s how our softball teams played ball exactly.
Interviewer: “Was it a higher level of ball than you played in California or close?”
Pretty close, but it was a higher level because they took the best ball players from each of
the teams because they would scout and take them back to Chicago and that’s what
happened. 13:26
Interviewer: “You’re playing and how long did you play for them?”
I played there in 1947 and in the latter part of 1948 is when I hurt my legs and I couldn’t
move and that’s when I was signed by Max Carey to go and play in the All American
League.
Interviewer: “All right, explain how that happened.”
Oh god, like I said, I was at Parache Stadium and I was out showing off thinking---I was
a show off for some reason and I could never understand that, but anyway, I pretended I
was a major league pitcher out there throwing the softball and I could throw a curve and I
had a good arm, so after I through showing off this guy comes up to me and said,
“Maybelle would you mind coming over here I want to talk to you for a minute”, and I
said, “no, of course not” and I went wobbling over and he said, “how would you like to
go and play for the All American?” I thought for about two seconds and I said, “sure
why not, I can’t do anything, but I don’t want to play anything but pitcher”, and he said,
“that’s what I want you for”, and I thought, “pitcher, I never played pitcher before, but
I’ll go”. 14:36 Well anyway, they signed me and I got in my car, I had a car at that time
because I had saved my money, and I drove down to Peoria and they got me a hotel and I
had a horrible toothache and these two little girls that were great fans went out and got
me some toothache medicine and saved my life and anyway to make a long story short, I
started pitching. 15:09 I was there for maybe a month and first of all he had me go
out—he called me into the game, “Hey Maybelle come in and pitch”, and I said, “oh”,
and here I come dizzy Dean herself is walking out there, so I was out there and somebody
was on first base, I don’t know who it was, but I think it was Sophie Kurys. I wound up
I’ll tell you, I wound up for forty minutes and by the time I got through unwinding that
runner was on third base you know not knowing I forgot all about it that I had a runner on
and that was the fun of it, I had a lot of fun. 15:49 They started bunting me because they
found out I couldn’t move.
Interviewer: “Ok, sort out your baseball career a little bit. How long were you with
the team before they put you in, was it a month?”
It was actually about a week and a half before he put me in and he kept me around for
courtesy’s sake I guess for another couple weeks and then he called me in his office and
he said, “I hate to have to tell you this, but I’m going to have to release you, but would
you please come back next year when your legs are well because we can certainly use
you.” 16.27
7
�Interviewer: “So he liked your arm anyway?”
Oh yeah, I got a good arm still today.
Interviewer: “When you were working out with them, before he had actually put
you in the game, did they know you couldn’t run?”
No, because I didn’t practice like I was running, I didn’t let them know. I kept it a secret
all to myself.
Interviewer: “So in the game, when you were playing, did someone try bunting on
you to see what would happen?”
Well yeah, exactly, because the rumor had gotten through because we had interaction
between the leagues because when we were off we would go and visit the other kids and
they said, “she can’t run so start bunting for god sake, she can’t move”, which was true.
17:12
Interviewer: “How did you hurt your legs?”
Running. And I didn’t tell him and I was hobbling around there and could hardly run and
for some ungodly reason the other leg was pulled and I cannot understand how I got two
charlie horses, but I kept those babies for a long time, even after I came home it took
quite a while to get rid of it. When I got home from playing ball I was hired by Northrop
Aircraft. I wanted to go back and play again, but I had such a good opportunity that I
couldn’t do it. This fellow I met was in charge of all traffic at Northrop Aircraft and he
said, “I want you to come in, learn the job and I want you to be supervisor in
transportation”, and I said, “oh come on, get off of it, I can’t do that”. I told him that and
he said, “you have the personality for it, I need to get you in here to get these drivers in
order”, and I said, “no, no, no”, anyway I finally decided to do it and I said, “the only
way I will do it is if I can learn to drive every piece of equipment we have because I do
not want to hear them razzing me or giving me a hard time that you picked the wrong
person. 18:27 Anyway, he did and I worked my way up from courier hauling VIP’s all
over like generals and presidents, heads of states and what have you all around, to
dispatcher and I went on to be supervisor and then I became manager of all highway
transportation for Northrop Aircraft.
Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about that courier job. Who were you driving
around?”
Big time—heads of state from all over the world because at that time we were building
the F5 Fighter and we were trying to sell it, so we were selling it to all the different
countries for their fleet or air force and I hauled lots of very important people. In fact,
Ronald Reagan was one of them and to this day I was thrilled to death about that. He was
Governor of the state at that particular time. 19:27
8
�Interviewer: “Were their other individuals whose names stood out as being
particularly interesting or unusual people?”
Oh sure, General Whitehead who was the head of the Pacific, and what was his name—I
loved him, but several of them and I can’t remember right now. Korean generals and it
was quite an experience for me.
Interviewer: “Were you going into jobs that normally men had been doing?”
Yes absolutely, it was all men and then when I became currier there were two couriers
ahead of me and both girls. W wore one of those uniforms and I thought I was real cute.
I was uglier than sin, but I thought I was cute. Anyway, that’s what we did and that was
the only girls in the department and then I went on, like I told you, and became head of
the department and one of my jobs was planning routes for the F18 aircraft to get it from
Hawthorn Air Force Base to---from Northrop Field to Edwards Air Force Base. 20:45 I
would have to go our and survey all of that—take down signs, trees, everything else
because we had to get it there because that was going to be our future the F18, so luckily
that was a real job and I got that sucker down there. One time when we were going
through downtown L.A. because it’s got the wings on it, and this drunk comes staggering
out of a bar in downtown Los Angeles he looked and the wing was practically going over
his head and he went like this and turned around and went right back into the bar. He
wasn’t seeing pink elephants he was just seeing airplanes. I can imagine what he went
back in and told them. 21:31 When I got to Edwards Air Force Base it was so exciting
because they had laid out the red carpet for me and after we stopped the aircraft and all
the people got out, they were playing “off we go into the wild blue yonder”, and I got out
of the truck and I couldn’t stand up, I was so weak I fell almost down on my knees, but
they caught me, I was so excited, it was quite an honor.
Interviewer: “Did you encounter any friction being a woman and going into these
positions and telling men what to do?”
At first I did, but the problem was is that I knew it very well and I knew what I was
talking about and they couldn’t argue with me or try to pull the wool over my eyes and
they soon learned that they couldn’t do that to me. I was fair, but I was strict. 22:17
Interviewer: “So the fellow that hired you knew what he was doing.”
Apparently, I guess so and also, I planned the route for the B2 Bomber, so I was happy
about that too.
Interviewer: “Did you have to move that along surface streets too?”
Oh yeah, not the whole bomber, but just the cockpit area.
Interviewer: “But not the whole thing.”
9
�Oh no you couldn’t. Up at Palmdale they built the wings, but we built the cockpit at our
facility and that was great too. I have to tell you too that I played for the New Orleans
Jacks, the world’s champions.
Interviewer: “Now when were you doing that?”
I can’t remember what year that was, but it was while I was working at Northrop. I told
my boss at the time, I said, “I have to have a whole month or so off because they are
asking me and pleading with me to come and play for them”. I said, “Ok?” he said,
“Ok”, so he gave me a month off. 23:11
Interviewer: “How did you get the invitation to play for New Orleans?”
Well, they new about me playing back there and they were out here and they needed
another ball player desperately, so I said, “ok” and I went and that was fun.
Interviewer: “Did you play second base for them?”
Second base.
Interviewer: “Then where did you go when you were playing with them?”
Oh, up through Canada, all through Washington, Oregon, Arizona and California.
Interviewer: “Now, was this a point after the All American League had folded?”
Yes that was, I would say that was probably down at about 1950 or 1951 maybe and I
may be wrong there. 23:55
Interviewer: “It could be, in 50 and 51 the league was still going at that point
wasn’t it?”
Oh yeah, the league was still going, but I didn’t have time to go back and play ball, I
couldn’t do that because I would lose my job and that was more important.
Interviewer. “You could take the month and go with New Orleans?”
Yes, they each gave me a month.
Interviewer: “So you had a chance to go back and play a little bit after the injury?”
Yeah, I did and that was fun.
Interviewer: “Now, on that particular tour, what kind of crowds did you get?”
Oh, fantastic, in fact we stopped at Bakersfield and played the world champion men’s
baseball team and we had two sisters on the team known as the Savodas—the best
baseball players or softball players or ball players I have ever seen in my life. During
batting practice they, both of them, could take batting practice and hit it over the fence
10
�left handed and right handed, no problem, run like deer and throw—you cannot imagine
how great they were, the two best ball players that ever lived. 24:52
Interviewer: “You played a men’s championship team, was that a championship
softball team?”
Softball team yeah.
Interviewer: “So you weren’t playing the New York Yankees or something?”
No, but during that game that we played them, the men had to pitch from the men’s
league and the women pitched from out league distance to the plate and our pitcher was
named Lotty Jackson and she stood about six one or two and she had a wind up that you
couldn’t even see the ball. Ginny Finch today, I don’t think Ginny Finch is as fast as was
this girl and these guys couldn’t hit her and it was so funny, we couldn’t hit him either,
let’s face it, anyway he walked me somehow, I probably stood there with my bat on my
shoulder and he couldn’t hit the plate, anyway, I somehow got over to third base and this
manager we had, Freda Sevoda one of the Sevoda sisters, she said, “pretend like you
can’t run”, and I said, “I can run”, and she said, “no, pretend like you can’t run”, and I
said, “ok”. 26:00 She took over and what she noticed—we beat these guys and what
happened was that the catcher, when he would get the ball sometimes, he would walk to
almost where the pitcher was and give him this (a sign) and he would slowly start
walking back to the plate, She noticed, that’s how smart she was, well he went out there
and he gave a little pitch to the pitcher and she took off like a jack rabbit and slid right
under him and we won one to nothing and I think there were eight thousand people out
there for that game and they just hoot and hollered and that was really something. 26:35
I never was so tickled in my life.
Interviewer: “Did they make any effort to get you to stay on?”
They wanted us to come back and play, but we had a schedule and we couldn’t do it and
the league didn’t like that at all, not at all
Interviewer: “Was that the last time you were playing on organized ball?”
Yes, that was the very last time and then I decided to hang it up.
Interviewer: “Now, when you were working at Northrop etc., did people know
anything about what you had done in the past in these different leagues and
things?”
During that time they didn’t know because the movie is what made it, if it wasn’t for the
movie you wouldn’t have known about the All American Girls, you wouldn’t have
known about the professional softball league because actually, they could have taken the
softball league instead of the all Americans and made the same movie, but they didn’t,
but people didn’t realize that there was two leagues or even one league, especially the
western people, the Midwest knew it and in Chicago they knew it, but that was it, the
11
�south didn’t know it, nobody knew it until Penny Marshall decided to make the movie.
27:54
Interviewer: “How did you wind up hooked up with this organization that you
played on one team for a short length of time?”
They made the movie and they asked me to come and be in the movie, so I was in it when
the old timers were at the end and what have you and that was the reason.
Interviewer: “Did you know a number of the people who were in the league?”
Oh yes, because I played softball with them and baseball and what have you. I have
known quite a few of them for years.
Interviewer: “At the time you were doing all these things, playing in these leagues
or for that matter going into some of your jobs at Northrop, did you see yourself as
a pioneer or were you just taking care of yourself?”
Nobody did, nobody did until after the movie again. The movie was the making of
everybody and even when you mention that you played in the all American or the
National league they don’t know what you’re talking about and could care less, now they
care, it’s amazing. 29:00
Interviewer: “What do you think of sort of the state of women’s sports today? Do
you see yourself as being part of a larger trend?”
I think it’s the most wonderful thing in the world, it has given all the girls the opportunity
of scholarships, it’s not that they’re going to be great professional athletes, but it gives
them the opportunity to go to college and that’s what I’m thrilled about. It gives the girls
the opportunity to take the right step in their lives, whichever step that is. They have a
choice. And thank God that happened; we’re so thrilled about it. 29:33 Before it was the
good old boys and let’s face it, all we were supposed to do is stay home and put on our
aprons and have kids.
Interviewer: “How do you think your life would have gone if you hadn’t hooked up
with organized softball?”
What would have happened? I would have probably gone on to college and become a PE
teacher. That’s exactly what I would have done. That was my goal in life because I
didn’t think there was any chance to go and play professional softball or baseball, but it
was there and gosh, how lucky we were, how lucky we were.
Interviewer: “Is that what gave you the connections that enabled you to go into
Northrop? Did these people know you from that?”
No, no, I was in a function or something—I think I was giving a speech—I don’t know
what in the world I was doing, anyway he came up to me and he said, “I need you”, and I
12
�said, “what do you mean you need me?” He said, “I’m da, da, da, da, and I want you to
come to work at Northrop”, and I said, “well, I’m going to go to college”, and he said,
“no, I want you to come to Northrop because I’m going to give you a good job and I’m
going to open the door for you”, so maybe he saw something that maybe he thought I was
a leader or something, that’s what I thought. 30:54
Interviewer: “If you were at a function and giving a speech, was this somehow in
conjunction with what you had been doing already?”
No, no I don’t know what the heck I was giving the speech about, I was giving a speech
about—heck, I can’t remember what it was, but I was giving a little speech. I don’t know
what it was, maybe about going to college—that’s what it was, I was going to go to
college and what my career was going to be and what I was going to become, I think that
was it. 31:19
Interviewer: “How do you think your time in these organized leagues affect you or
change you? Did you grow up some because of this or learn things—that whole
experience of going out to Chicago and all of that?”
Yeah, it taught me a great deal because I had never even been away from my mother
overnight to a girls party or sleep out or go anywhere to visit anybody, that was the first
time and I learned a great deal and it was quite exciting and when they say they put the
ropes around the suitcases, well I had ropes around my suitcase and I took off. 31:55
Gosh, I thought I was in hog heaven when I landed in Chicago and they picked me up.
The buildings wow.
Interviewer: “Although there was that part there where you had to barricade
yourself in the hotel room when you got there, but the young woman who did that is
not the same person exactly that the fellow from Northrop spotted and said, “I need
you”, so something happened between there.”
Well that was a learning process, absolutely a learning process and It’s not as easy as you
think, I figured it out and when I went to Northrop I realized that if I really wanted to
make it, I had to devote myself to it and quit being a kid anymore and quit fooling
around. I still fool around, but anyway that’s the way it is. 32:43
Interviewer: “Well, it makes for a very good story and thanks for coming in and
telling it to me today.”
Hey, I hope you appreciate it.
13
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_MBlair
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Blair, Maybelle (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Blair, Maybelle
Description
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Maybelle Blair was born in 1927 in Longvale, California. Before joining the All American Girl's Baseball League she played baseball with her brothers at the age of nine and then later in 1942 at age twelve began playing organized softball. At about this time she played for a semi-pro league out of Burbank, California and then with the Pasadena Ramblers from 1943 to 1946 who she toured with playing games at army bases for servicemen. Her semi-pro career ended in 1947 when the Chicago Cardinals scouted her and signed her to be a pitcher. In 1948, Max Carey signed her to play on the Peoria Redwings as a pitcher. Due to an injured leg, her career was cut short and she only played a month with the Peoria Redwings. Later, she went on to play 2nd base for the New Orleans Jacks for a month in 1951. Her career ended with them ended when she was forced to choose between playing softball and giving up her job driving VIPs for Northrop Airport; she chose to quit softball. Blair wraps by mentioning how the All American Girls Professional Baseball League changed her perspective on the course of her life.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-26
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b448313da33b45dd941ed2266b9fea46.pdf
a12ed8039e824e6c18b9a0cd660746f4
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Miss Dorothy Blake
Interviewed on September 20, 1971
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #14 and 15 (47:17)
Biographical Information
Dorothy Stuart Blake, the daughter of William Frederick Blake and Adeline Louise “Alde” Tuck
was born 23 July 1889 in Grand Rapids. She passed away at the age of 88 on 4 September 1977
in Grand Rapids.
William F. Blake, the son of Increase Blake and Sarah Farnsworth was born 3 May 1851 in
Farmington Falls, Franklin County, Maine. He died at his home at 320 S. College Avenue, Grand
Rapids on Christmas Eve 1915 and is buried in the Blake Cemetery in Farmington, Franklin
County, Maine. William was in the wholesale grocery business and came to Grand Rapids in
1887.
Mr. Blake was married 15 March 1881 in Farmington, Maine to Adeline Louise “Alde” Tuck.
Alde was the daughter of Dr. Cyrus Dean Tuck and Adeline Lucy Colby. She was born 8 June
1857 in Falmouth, Cumberland County, Maine and moved with her parents to Farmington,
Franklin County before 1870. Her death occurred on 29 April 1925 in Grand Rapids and she is
also buried in the Blake Cemetery.
___________
Blake: You probably want a limit on time too, don‟t you for each question, or don‟t you?
Interviewer: No just, you just talk as long as you want. Miss Blake, it looks as though you‟re in
the process of moving, you are in the process of moving from this house. We‟re at three-twenty
College South East. How long have you lived in this house?
Blake: I have lived here since eighteen ninety-three.
Interviewer: Did your family move here?
Blake: My family moved up here from the old Warwick Hotel, which later became the Cody,
which was later turned into a parking ramp.
Interviewer: Was your family living in the hotel at the time?
Blake: Yes, and we moved up here I remember there were only two houses on the whole west
side of the street, between College, between Cherry and Wealthy. And one house is what I think
was called the, the Waddell house, and later was called the Hudson house, which is still standing,
�2
and the other house was a dark red brick with a forbidding looking door that looked like a prison
door, and Mr. and Mrs. Shaw lived there. They were old people then, and I don‟t remember of
course who built the house, or if it was the Shaws or not, but they were living there, at that time.
And all the rest of the block was on the east side was a vacant lot, and a cow pasture and an
apple orchard, through which I had to walk to go to school, the old Wealthy Avenue School.
Interviewer: Where was the Wealthy Avenue School located?
Blake: It was, where it is now, only an older building and the entrance was on Wealthy Street,
and now it‟s called the Vandenberg School of course, the Wealthy entrance is on Lafayette.
Interviewer: Well, were you a child then, when you moved up, how old?
Blake: Oh yeah, I was four years old when we moved up here, so…
Interviewer: Did your family build this house?
Blake: No, it was about, I think this house had been lived in two and a half years. There was only
one family that occupied this house before we moved up, and that was the Brouwer family I
think. There were three Brouwer boys I believe, Evert O. Brouwer, and Jack Brouwer, and Otto
Brouwer was born in this house. Well, they were renting it from father.
Interviewer: Well then, then your father did build the house, but he was rented it from
somebody?
Blake: He bought it.
Interviewer: Oh.
Blake: And rented it for a couple of years before we moved up.
Interviewer: I see, what kind of business was your father in?
Blake: He was in the wholesale grocery business, with teas and coffees, as his specialty, which
ultimately turned out to be the manager of the tea department for Judson Grocery Company.
Interviewer: Had he been born in Grand Rapids?
Blake: He was born in Maine, Farmington Falls, Maine. My mother was born in Farmington,
Maine.
Interviewer: Did they meet each other in Maine?
Blake: They met each other when Mother went to Farmington Falls to teach school, they had
never met before, they grew up seven miles apart—just a horse and buggy road between.
�3
Interviewer: What a, what was the reason they finally moved to Grand Rapids, your father and
mother moved here?
Blake: He started West, to be the, now you‟ve got me, on going back that far. This is just what,
what I heard from them, of course, that he started West, he was a lawyer, at that time, and he
started west to be the corporation lawyer for a mining company in Utah. And when he got to
Chicago, he was met by a telegram saying that the mine was flooded, and they have to postpone
the working of it for a while. Well, it was postponed forever apparently, so father was stuck in
Chicago, and that‟s when he, got a wholesale grocery and teas and coffees to work with a cousin
of his, who started him out in Chicago. Then later they moved to Grand Rapids. And he stayed in
that business instead of in the law.
Interviewer: That‟s interesting. Where was this store located in Grand Rapids?
Blake: Oh the Judson Grocery Company, gracious, oh, it was downtown. But on what street I‟ve
forgotten.
Interviewer: Do you remember going to the grocery store as a child?
Blake: Yes, and before that to the Worden Grocery Company, was the first one, and father was
one of the organizers of that, and then later he joined the Judson grocery.
Interviewer: What was downtown like in those days?
Blake: Well, I really don‟t know what you mean by that question.
Interviewer: How did if differ from today, for example? Or did it differ at all?
Blake: Well, we had streetcars, now we have buses. The streetcars were, ran on an overhead
trolley. And some of our, well, I don‟t know about downtown, it had its big department stores,
Spring Dry Goods Store was one of the best. It had Herpolsheimer‟s, it had Wurzburg‟s. They
were early settlers in this neighborhood, too.
Interviewer: What was it like growing up in this neighborhood?
Blake: Oh, it was very, it was a very happy life, most of it centered around home, of course, and,
well most, most of our fun was right here. We played croquet on the back lawn, we packed up
picnics and got on the Cherry-Shawmut Streetcar line and went to John Ball Park for a day‟s
outing, that was, that was fun. There were some animals there, but, the zoo was not as large as
we have now. But there was, that was one of our joys. And another was, on a hot day, get on the
Wealthy-Taylor streetcar, for five cents, and ride from one end of the city to the other, on the car
to get cool. And one end was at North Park, and the other end of the line was Reed‟s Lake we
called it. And Reed‟s Lake was one of the places where we had lots of good times. There were
rides on a steamer for ten cents, rides as long as you chose, stay on all day if you wanted to, and
we‟d take picnic lunches with us. And there was a, an excellent vaudeville, high class vaudeville,
�4
outdoors in the pavilion there, which was one of the things to do if you wanted recreation.
Another thing was to hire a team, there used to be a livery stable down on the corner of LaGrave
and Wealthy, and father [would] hire a rig and a couple of horses and we‟d pack up a picnic
lunch and we‟d drive to Cascade and Ada, where he had some trade in the general stores there so
he‟d combine a little business with a picnic spree for us.
Interviewer: What kind of a road went from the city here to Cascade and Ada?
Blake: I think, now I‟m not sure, I think it was a gravel road. It might have been just plain dirt
road, but I can remember as the gravel road, especially the gravel road to Ada.
Interviewer: Well, outside of these little excursions around the city, most of your life did center
around the home then.
Blake: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Can you describe to me what your home life, somewhat, what a…?
Blake: Well, when we were very small, mother had help that lived in the house, and, one maid
would do the washing, the ironing, the cooking, the cleaning, for her board and room, and a, very
small amount per week. And then later, when we grew up and had our own tasks assigned to us
for housekeeping, mother hired help by the day, a dollar a day was, was for the price for years.
And then outside help would do the washing, the wash bench and two tubs and a wringer, out on
a big back porch. And she‟d hang it out and she‟d iron it, and then she‟d come another day to do
the cleaning. Well, that isn‟t so very different from what we have now except the washers are all
automatic.
Interviewer: Were there, did your family have many activities with other families in the
neighborhood?
Blake: Oh yes, there was a wonderful neighborhood. The houses on the east side where I‟m
living were all single family houses, except one, there was one, it was a what did you call it, a
double house, upstairs and downstairs there were two families. All the rest were single families.
We knew every family on the block. And the whole block, especially the older people, the
fathers and mothers would get together and have their parties. And sometimes the children would
get together and put on a theatrical performance of their own making, and the parents would turn
out and pay a penny a piece or so many pins a piece for the privilege of watching our activities.
That was fun, homemade fun. The families they were families that stayed put, at least two
generations of the same family would be living in the same houses in here.
Interviewer: Why do you think that was? Why did the families, for example, would two
generations of a family be the same neighborhood? Why was there that, for what reason was
there that stability?
�5
Blake: I don‟t know. I suppose because they had lovely houses, good homes, they didn‟t care
about going away for very long.
Interviewer: What do you think changed all of that?
Blake: The automobile, and then later the airplane. The automobile did a lot of changing, for
better and for worse, too.
Interviewer: Was there a, how would you classify in terms of economic position, the people that
lived here on south College compared with for example, the people that lived on Jefferson or up
on the Hill. Was there a difference?
Blake: I don‟t know that there was any particular difference. Jefferson was an avenue of homes
too; some very beautiful homes there. Even Sheldon had some beautiful homes. Some of the
political parades used to go down Sheldon. People would sit out on their front porches and
watch.
Interviewer: You were involved in some women‟s suffrage activities. What exactly was your
involvement? When did you first become interested in it?
Blake: Oh, I suppose when I was a small child, I was indoctrinated with the idea of women‟s
rights, after all, I had three sisters, and we were a woman family. And well as a little girl, I did
things like selling suffrage newspapers downtown, either inside or outside the store; it was
perfectly safe to be on the streets. And soon as I got out of college, I helped with the nineteen
twelve campaign, which was a very lively one; Dr. Wishart was the manager of that. And we had
an office downtown, and I had an old typewriter that I took down there and did office work for
them. And my younger sisters rode in parades, dressed up in the suffrage colors, and with
banners and, and pamphlets decorating the floats. Oh, we did so many things I, I think one of my
fondest memories was, the one that will always stay with me, was meeting Susan B. Anthony.
She was seventy-nine years old when she came to Grand Rapids. We had the national convention
here in Grand Rapids in eighteen ninety-nine, and she came, and Howard Shaw came, a brilliant
list of people who were present at that, that convention, that lasted for several days. And mother
took me to meet Miss Anthony one afternoon. She was a guest at Mrs. John Blodgett‟s house,
which had been torn down now, where the Stuyvesant is now. I can remember my impression of
her, it as very sweet, gentle, little, old lady who was courteous and treated me just as if I were
important. She was, and she signed my birthday book for me, and put the date in it. That‟s one of
my fond memories. The next year she was unable to travel, I believe, and it wasn‟t too long after
that than she passed away.
Interviewer: Why, why did they hold the national convention in Grand Rapids, was a, how did
Grand Rapids happen to be chosen?
�6
Blake: Grand Rapids just simply went after it and insisted that they come here, and they said they
always met in Washington, D.C. and they fought coming here, but finally, the men were on the
job too, there was a very strong men‟s suffrage at work with Dr. Wishart on the job too.
Interviewer: Who was Dr. Wishart?
Blake: Oh, he was the minister at Fountain Street Baptist church, very prominent man, nationally
prominent. And then all of the, the Chamber of Commerce I think they called it then, the Men‟s
Chamber of Commerce went after it tooth and nail, they just worked for it, offered lots of things,
lots of inducements to the women if they would hold their national convention in Grand Rapids.
And they finally won out, they did all sorts of things for them, the St. Cecilia was the auditorium
where they held their meetings. The Warwick Hotel was their headquarters, and some of the
delegates of course were entertained in private homes. But that was a great feather in the suffrage
cap of the nation, because always they had before and after, at least, held their meetings in
Washington.
Interviewer: Were many women in this neighborhood, in the Hill District, the Hill area, involved
with women‟s suffrage at that time?
Blake: All of them that I knew were. But I don‟t know that I can name them, but it was a very
homogenous neighborhood.
Interviewer: Was there any reaction by the men against the, the women‟s demand for rights,
equal rights?
Blake: Very little, in fact the men did as much for us as we, at that particular convention, as we
could. We, both men and women, went all out for that, to bring that convention here to Grand
Rapids.
Interviewer: Would women in the Hill District that were associated with, what was the name of
your group? Did you have a name for your organization or…
Blake: Well, there was the National Women‟s Suffrage organization, and then there was the
State Women‟s Suffrage organization, and I suppose there was the Grand Rapids Equal Suffrage
Club.
Interviewer: Would there be meetings held at different women‟s home and one thing or another,
did you have regular meetings?
Blake: Oh, well, those would just be committee meetings, the, the big meetings were held in
halls like St. Cecilia‟s. That was one of the favorite places, the size and the, of course the
building itself has wonderful acoustics. Ladies Literary Club was another place where important
meetings were held. At that convention, as well as others, the Ladies Literary Club was open too.
Interviewer: Did the Ladies Literary Club have a regular clubhouse?
�7
Blake: Oh, yes, they, they had their own clubhouse, owned it, one of the first in the country to
build and own their own clubhouse. The St. Cecilia was another, it was the first musical
organization to build their own clubhouse, and own it. Both those buildings were very much used
in that era. Well, they still are.
Interviewer: Were they important social organizations?
Blake: Yes, they were both leaders in their own field. St. Cecilia in the field of music and the
Ladies Literary Club in the well, the field of general culture and literary work particularly. I
remember meeting Woodrow Wilson at the Ladies Literary Club. President Taft was there at one
time, I think he was the only president who was, [who] came to the Ladies Literary Club, during
his presidency.
Interviewer: Came here to Grand Rapids?
Blake: Yeah. To speak a the Ladies Literary Club, I think that while he was president, I think
he‟s the only president who ever did and it was Mrs. McKnight who got him to come.
Interviewer: How did she induce him to come?
Blake: She could, she could, I don‟t know how to put it, she could induce almost anybody to, to
come to Grand Rapids, if she thought it important,
Interviewer: Who was Mrs. McKnight?
Blake: Oh, well she was President of the Ladies Literary Club, she was one of the organizers and
Presidents of the “Alliance Française”, the French Club in Grand Rapids, she was a great
authority on are, she was a great traveler, European traveler, visited all the important places in
Paris, and came home and gave talks on it. She was one of the, one of the, shall I say social;
another adjective would be better, leaders in Grand Rapids, social, educational, and cultural
leaders in Grand Rapids. Mrs. William F. McKnight.
Interviewer: Was there, what was it what happened when Taft came? Did the city celebrate or
put on any big festivities?
Blake: There must have been but I don‟t remember. I probably was in school. No, I wouldn‟t
have been at school because he came on a Saturday, I remember that much. There probably was
a parade, I don‟t remember, that fact I cut out, but I can remember seeing him.
Interviewer: What did you do after you got out of college? Did you spend most of your time in
suffrage work?
Blake: I stayed home that one year, and worked through the campaign of nineteen twelve, but
that was the Michigan Campaign, and then after that I taught school.
�8
Interviewer: Where did you teach?
Blake: I taught in Hesperia for two years; I taught in Lowell for three years; I taught in Union
High School, Grand Rapids, for thirty-four years. That was an ideal school to teach in, perfectly
delightful.
Interviewer: Union, Grand Rapids Union High School?
Blake: Yeah.
Interviewer: What was considered the, the best high school in the city?
Blake: That was.
Interviewer: Grand Rapids Union?
Blake: And it wasn‟t because I taught there either. It a, we got that said, of course we, we
teachers, we had a good, a very good staff there at Union, and we all enjoyed our work and we
had good material. Our material was a melting pot; all sorts of nationalities were represented in,
in the student body. And the various teachers who did supply work, in all the high schools, there
were five high schools before I finished teaching, there was just one when I went to Central High
School, but when I, when there were five high schools and supply teachers had experience in
each one of those high schools, they said without question that Union High school was the best,
or that they enjoyed it the most, put it either way.
Interviewer: Central High School was the high school for the Hill District, wasn‟t it?
Blake: Yes, and that was the first full high school. That is twelve, had all four high school
grades, ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grades.
Interviewer: Didn‟t Union?
Blake: Union at different times had a different setup, as to grades. Now at one time, while I was
teaching, they had everything under one roof at Union, from the kindergarten up through the
twelfth grade, and an automobile repair shop, all in the same building. And I think the later years
that I was there, they began with the seventh grade, and that‟s what they call junior high, and
senior high, seventh, eighth and ninth were junior high: tenth, eleventh, and twelfth were senior
high. And of course now they use different names, middle school and so on. But ours were junior
and senior high. That was after Union had such a large enrollment that they couldn‟t have the
kindergarten grades in there anymore, so they went over to Harrison Park.
Interviewer: Did Union at one time serve as I understand it, they had three grades in the High
School, and then for the senior year students would transfer to Central.
�9
Blake: At one time. That was back before… that lasted up until nineteen six, I believe, when
there was just one graduating class in the whole city. And that was from Central. In Nineteen six,
I can remember that the tenth graders, the twelfth graders, had to come over from Union and take
their work in Central. And after that, they added the twelfth grade to Union.
Interviewer: Were you very active in the Ladies Literary Club?
Blake: No, in fact I was not a member…
Interviewer: Oh,
Blake: My mother was very active and she often took me as a guest when she could to the…
Interviewer: Is she one of the ones that help found the club?
Blake: I don‟t know, I don‟t think so but it must have been pretty nearly as early as that because
it wasn‟t a very old club at the time.
Interviewer: Why did the, were, well, did women, did a lot of women belong to the Ladies
Literary Club?
Blake: Oh yes, very, very active club.
Interviewer: Why…?
Blake: I think it still is.
Interviewer: What, for what reason would women become active in that club?
Blake: It was the only club of its kind in the city except for the West Side Ladies Literary Club,
or the West Side Literary Club, I think that was. And I don‟t know whether the west side club
antedates, I don‟t think it antedates the Ladies Literary Club, it may have been a branch, I don‟t
know. It may have been a branch of it, but that‟s a very old club too, the West Side Literary
Club. But I think the Ladies Literary Club was the first to organize, I think it was unique in the
country.
Interviewer: What kind of activities would they have at the club?
Blake: Well, mostly literary, of course, usually some music on their programs, speakers, the most
important speakers from the country that they could get and it depended very largely on the
Presidents who was the best getter of speakers from other places. And political interest came in,
of course non-partisan, but they were inte…, they were very alive club.
Interviewer: Would you say it was the center of cultural activity for women at that time?
�10
Blake: I divide honors between that and the St. Cecilia. Of course the St. Cecilia was primarily
music, but the two combined made the, quite a strong influence for culture in Grand Rapids. Of
course, a great many of the women were members of both, the St. Cecilia and the Ladies Literary
Club.
Interviewer: I‟m going to turn this tape over, it‟s almost out, and I have just a couple more
questions I won‟t be able to get them…
[End of side one]
Blake: Don‟t know whether he was born in Grand Rapids, but he was a Grand Rapids boy, and
we were, we were just devoted to the Library, why we spent a great deal of time there, went to
all the library lectures, ever since, in the room the other day with Mr. Collins, I had come in for
some other, no I had come in to see him and give him some papers I had, and I looked around
and I said, “well, this used to be the lecture room, didn‟t it?” Of course it‟s something else now,
but it was the old lecture room; when we went to every lecture there was, I believe, in it. And
they had a very lively program, in it, the library. It‟s always been in good hands, the library I
could remember that part. Then I, I put down women‟s suffrage because you mentioned that.
And then I scribbled down here, I guess how people lived, maybe suggestion. Now, what did we
used to like to do when we could do whatever we pleased? And then I thought of the streetcars
we had no horse of our own, and of course there weren‟t any automobiles then anyways as far as
I know, but we used to like to ride, to ride the streetcars. Cool off on a hot day, you‟d get on an
open streetcar. You‟ve seen pictures at least of open streetcars?
Interviewer: I‟m not sure.
Blake: Well, where the seats go right straight across. You get on from the side, you step on and
slide into your seat. They‟re all open, and of course when the cars are going we have a delightful
breeze. Made, made to order. You could ride from one end of the city to the other, you see,
which meant back from Reed‟s Lake to North Park or the Soldiers Home or a little beyond it, or
the pavilion out there at North Park where there is usually music or something going on. But
we‟d usually stay on the car, and it would turn around and then come back. We might have had
to pay another five cents to get back, but… But anyway, you could ride from one end of the city
to the other for five cents. So, I jotted down there, Wealthy- Scribner. And the names amused me
too, they did even then, we used to laugh over the names of our streetcars. Wealthy-Scribner,
Wealthy-Taylor, Cherry-Shawmut, aren‟t those silly names? But the Wealthy was because it
went down the length of Wealthy, Wealthy Avenue, they called it. Now it‟s called Wealthy
Street, but it was Wealthy Avenue that, that‟s where the line began. And Scribner was way over
on the west side. Well, Scribner Street‟s still there, and Wealthy Street‟s still there, but that was
the Wealthy-Scribner line. Well then the Wealthy-Taylor line was the longer still, because that
went way out Taylor Street, now that‟s on the west side too, way out to North Park. So no wait,
is Taylor on the west side?
�11
Interviewer: I don‟t even know where Taylor is…
Blake: There is, the river turns there some, Division, no, we didn‟t cross the river. No Taylor
isn‟t on the west side, I, I was wrong there, because we didn‟t cross the river when we went out
to North Park. So Taylor must be in that direction. But we went past what we call the Soldiers
Home, it‟s now called the Veteran‟s facility, and out to a pavilion that, that was there near the
bridge that did cross over to the west side. Now that, that bridge was way out at Comstock Park.
So Taylor must be out there, in that direction. I ought to know, but I don‟t; mixed up on that, but
the names Wealthy-Scribner, Wealthy-Taylor, people from other cities used to say, “You have
the queerest names for your streets” Now the Shawmut, what a name, and Cherry, and Cherry,
Cherry Street, why Cherry Street? Well, maybe they had cherry trees once, I don‟t remember,
but Wealthy-Scribner, Wealthy-Taylor, Reed‟s Lake, Cherry-Shawmut, John Ball Park, and they
thought John Ball Park must be a place where they have ball games; of course… there isn‟t any
out there. We had to explain that John Ball was one of the pioneers in Grand Rapids, that that
park was named after him. I hope you dump out a lot of this, you take them will you.
Interviewer: Do you think that, well you were a school teacher for a long time, how has the
society changed or has it changed from the days when you were growing up? And what do you
attribute that change to?
Blake: Well, of course the recent change I‟d say has taken place within the last four years. I think
its chaos now. Standards are, standards are broken down; many people have no standards, they
just think they can do what they please. Which I call communistic, they might as well be shipped
off to Russia the way they act. And the way they simply think they can help themselves to
anything. Gangs come around, throwing stones and, and…
Interviewer: Do you have that problem down here on College?
Blake: Right here, they haven‟t hit the house yet; they don‟t quite dare. And they can‟t quite
reach the house for they, it‟s, it‟s a gang that is sort of between little colored people and grown,
and they‟re, they‟re all, the gang is all colored. That isn‟t one that, that comes around here
occasionally, and they seem to recruit from somewhere over on Paris Avenue, which is almost
solid black. You know that, that block there, there are three white families that I know are still
living there, up near Cherry. But I think most of those in through here don‟t know how live. And
that has been, that neighborhood has run down, don‟t quote me on these things please, but that
neighborhood has run down for many years, because a real estate man who was buying up all the
properties just let it go to, well, go to pieces. And let the houses run down, didn‟t care who
rented them, but one of the former renters there told me that, that she was charged an enormous
rent for a horrible room in one of the houses back here, and well the backyards are, well they are
cleaned up a little bit, but they‟re not too good there. There are cars parked all over in the
backyards, and sometimes people climbing all over the tops of them. That one time there were
six, for heaven‟s sakes, don‟t quote me, I‟m, I‟m getting some of the dope on this area. But
�12
we‟ve had, and, and why, I don‟t know why, we‟ve suddenly changed. The lack of standards, the
lack of any idea of what‟s right nor wrong or is what, what‟s it seems to me that some of them
think well, whatever they want to do is right. Well they have a right to which isn‟t right at all.
They have no standards, but the gang here, made up of both little and big, are the one I dealt with
happened to be all colored. And they throw stones, and pieces of cement and bricks, I don‟t
know where they get the bricks, from the fence line, my back fence line there, and the garage
back there; I have a drive, short driveway on this side whenever I. They in order to make a lot of
no[ise], they could, they couldn‟t throw far enough to hit the house, there‟s a big back lawn
there, they really were a bunch of cowards and they didn‟t quite dare, but really what‟s fortunate
they didn‟t dare come over the fence. A, so they put a dishpan out so it would make a lot of noise
from where, they threw from the fence and threw towards the dishpan so it would make a
resounding noise, their bricks and their stones and oh boy… Well they did that one day when I
was here. I spend a part of everyday down here, trying to clear up this house, clear out a little
each day, but one morning when I came down from Oakwood Manor, I looked out the back
window and the lawn was scattered with bricks and stones they‟d been throwing „em, either the
night before or early morning, and I really should have had the police come up and look at it. But
it was the day that, that the trucks come along and clean up everything or they did for a while. So
I thought well, I better get this, this stuff out in front for the trucks to pick up so I did. But I
should have called the police out first, to take a look at it. I told them about it afterwards, but,
they said, “Did they do any damage to the house?” I said, well I can‟t prove it, but there is
broken glass around, but they, they were at a distance when they threw those things, and they
didn‟t hit the house. Damage was merely to my nerves…and house to clean up, but anyway, that
sort of thing seems to spring up all of a sudden. And, sometimes they swarm around the car out
there, there parked in the driveway and one day they came around, they must have had either a
stone or a brick in their hands, I don‟t know, and whanged against the house you know and one
these, oh, forget what, anyway, to make all the noise they could, trying to terrorize the, whoever
was inside the house. They didn‟t break a single glass, but I was afraid they would so I called the
police. And if the police had come at once they would have seen the whole gang of them. By the
time a policeman got up here, I had called a second time, I said I need the police, and I need
them now, well, I said, the gang‟s right here, and take a picture of them. And said well he‟s on
the way, well, the nice policeman was on the way, but when he came here…
Interviewer: They were gone:
Blake: They vanished into thin air, where they went and how, I don‟t know. It was just like that
and they were gone. And he asked me their names… Why, I said, “I don‟t know their names.”
“Well, what‟d they look like?” I said, “To me those colored people all look alike.” And, “What
did they wear?” Well, I said, “I can remember one wore a striped red and white sweater…” “Are
they good looking?” Well I said, “I don‟t know, their names, and I don‟t know who their parents
are, they‟re a gang that, that, gather themselves together, you know, and go in and out behind…
well, there‟s a big barn over there, that‟s a good place to hide, behind a red barn, and then there‟s
�13
a garage right next to me, back of this house if you ask them and they recruit, and then they come
around.” Well, now that‟s what we‟re up against, that lawlessness, all the … broken out and they
think they seem to have the right to be any where they want to, whether they want to play in the
back yard or where…
Interviewer: It wasn‟t like that when you were…
Blake: Well, no. this was private property, and if, in fact we almost always had the fence around
and mother had a fence with a gate that locked and she let in people she wanted her children to
play with, and kept out those she didn‟t. But that was way back, of course when your home was
your private property, your own affair, and now people think they have a right in anything. Well,
that‟s Communism, why not pack them off to Russia and leave them there, it that‟s… but that
seems to be a general feeling. And where it comes from…
Interviewer: Could you a…
Blake: But, it‟s to me a total reversal of what‟s right and what‟s wrong and what‟s decent and
what isn‟t. But you see I‟m very old fashioned. It‟s, it‟s awfully hard to take different reasons for
things.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Blake: What‟s back of it I don‟t know. Of course, the automobile began changing ways of life
for instance an all-day picnic at, at Ada or Cascade with a horse and buggy, now it‟s about,
doesn‟t take more than 30 minutes to drive, to drive an auto there, another 30 back. I think life
began changing then, but it was still a delightful living in the early days of the automobile. But
something has hit- is it war? Do you think war is back of what‟s the matter with us? We‟re
always fighting somewhere. If it isn‟t Vietnam it‟s somewhere else. I don‟t know what‟s, what‟s
the, but to me it, it‟s a, it‟s tragic. People, now this of course still part of the Heritage Hill district
and the people here are just hoping that they can stay here; they‟re watching and just hoping that
they can stay here. There are some lovely people across the street in one of the houses that was
there when, when we, we moved up here, one of the two houses that was on the other side of the
street, still there, sort of ice cream colored, the Magmoses[?] live there now. And they‟re hoping
they can stay there, that the, that the gangs that come around won‟t, won‟t get over on their side.
They don‟t know when it‟s going to run across the street… They say things aren‟t, you can‟t plan
ahead or be confident that you can do things that you used to do now, don‟t know, what you‟re
going to run up against. I don‟t know what‟s, I don‟t think anybody knows the answer. But it
seems to me sort of a communistic movement … that‟s been very gradually and subtly pushed
nearer and nearer to where we‟re living. Came from Detroit, here, and from where to Detroit I
goodness knows. Detroit‟s had an awful time, hasn‟t it? Just fright[ful]…
�14
INDEX
A
M
Alliance Française Club · 8
Anthony, Susan B. · 5, 6
McKnight, Mrs. · 7, 8
B
N
Blake, Adeline Louise "Alde" Tuck (Mother) · 2, 3, 4, 6, 9,
13
Blake, William Frederick (Father) · 2, 3, 4
Blodgett, Mrs. John · 6
Brouwer Family · 2
National Women’s Suffrage organization · 7
R
Reed’s Lake · 4, 11
C
Central High School · 8, 9
Cody Hotel · 1
G
Grand Rapids Equal Suffrage Club · 7
H
Herpolsheimer’s · 3
S
Shaw Family · 2
Shaw, Howard · 5
St. Cecilia's Music Society · 6, 7, 10
State Women’s Suffrage organization · 7
T
Taft, President · 7, 8
U
J
Union High School · 8, 9
John Ball Park · 3, 11
Judson Grocery Company · 2, 3
W
L
Ladies Literary Club · 7, 8, 9, 10
Wealthy Avenue School · 2
Wishart, Dr. · 5, 6
Women's Suffrage · 5, 6, 8, 11
Worden Grocery Company · 3
Wurzburg’s · 3
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ce366b50d4e3f9d5f743cb39c461566.mp3
abb684495a57d7b68391809aff37d961
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
Creator
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Various
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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application/pdf; audio/mp3
Language
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eng
Type
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Text; Sound
Identifier
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RHC-23
Coverage
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1971 - 1977
Sound
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-23_14-15Blake
Title
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Blake, Dorothy
Creator
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Blake, Dorothy
Description
An account of the resource
Miss Blake was a Radcliffe graduate and taught school at Union High School for 34 years. Miss Blake met both Woodrow Wilson and Howard Taft at the Lady's Literary Club. She also worked in the 1912 National campaign for women's suffrage movement.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Sound
Format
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application/pdf
audio/mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
Date
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1971