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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b4349b7c202e0b5be61c50a1dcc8dc47.pdf
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Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Nicholas Wieringa
Vietnam War
6 minutes 17 seconds
(00:00:05)
-Born on December 10th 1948.
-Part of the Army infantry as a specialist 4th class.
-Born in Grand Rapids.
-Nine siblings all lived on a dairy farm.
-Went to barbers school.
-Drafted about three months after finishing barber school.
-One brother was a cook in Colorado for the Army.
-Another brother was a Russian translator stationed in Greece.
-Learned to adapt to military life well.
-Served basic training in Fort Knox, Kentucky.
-Served AIT training at Fort Louis, Washington.
-In Vietnam the War was hectic.
-18 firefights during the year he was there.
(00:03:00)
-On one occasion after a violent battle they ended up having to pick up the body parts.
-Difficult but eventually get used to such things.
-Had one long lasting friendship from the military, a friend from St. Thomas.
-Communication with family was all done through the mail.
-No real recreational time in Vietnam.
-Typically sent out on patrol for 21 days at a time.
-After returning to the US finished his time at Fort Knox.
-Returned to the US on a plane.
-Family and friends were supportive once he returned the general public less so.
-Didn’t have significant difficulty returning to his civilian lifestyle.
-His military experience made him appreciate what he has, friends and family.
-Enabled him to value the life that he has.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_WieringaN1850V
Title
A name given to the resource
Wieringa, Nicholas J (Interview outline), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-24
Description
An account of the resource
Nicholas Wieringa was born in 1948 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He was part of the Army infantry as a specialist 4th class. At Fort Knox, Kentucky he undertook basic training, and then had AIT training at Fort Louis, Washington. Nicholas was deployed to Vietnam at an especially hectic time of the War during which 18 firefights broke out. After his return to the US he served the remainder of his enlistment at Fort Knox before being discharged.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wieringa, Nicholas J.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Skinner, Jordyn (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. ArmyOral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Type
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Text
Format
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application/pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Vietnam War
Charles Whorton
Length of interview: (58:33)
(00:00) Early Life
Charles was born on January 2, 1947 in Mobile, Alabama
When Charles was a child, his family moved to Benton Harbor, Michigan, where he grew
up
His father worked at Whirlpool as an electrician and his mother worked as an auto
specialist
Charles graduated high school in 1964
o After he graduated, he worked at several factory jobs before going to work at
Whirlpool
He got his draft notice in early 1966
o At the same time that he got his draft notice, he found out that his cousin had been
killed in Vietnam
(2:30) Military Life
Charles went to Fort Hood, Texas for basic training
o The barracks were old, World War Two era buildings
o When they arrived, the drill instructors immediately started screaming at them
Training consisted of physical training, weapons instruction, and survival training
o They also made them go through a gas chamber to see how fast they could put on
a gas mask
o It was easy to adjust to the discipline
o About a quarter of the men were black, another quarter were Hispanic, while the
rest of the men were Caucasian. All of the men got along because they were afraid
After the training and a short leave, Charles went to Fort Benning, Georgia for radio
training (Advanced Individual Training)
o In this training course, Charles learned how to operate a small backpack radio. He
also learned Morse Code
o The radio training took a total of eight weeks. Charles found that he was treated
better here than in basic training
After AIT, Charles was sent to Fort Riley, Kansas for some Jungle training
o He was there for a short time before he was given a 30 day leave and his order to
go to Vietnam
(11:00) Charles got on a plane to California where he boarded a ship headed to Vietnam
�
o The bunks were stacked close together and there was no room to roll once you
laid down
o Charles spent his days on the ship cleaning vomit. The ship stopped once because
one man had hanged himself
o Charles was going to Vietnam with the 9th Division
They landed in Cam Ranh Bay around December 13, 1966, near a party beach for
officers
Charles was designated as a radioman for air warning clearance control
o Although he knew how to operate the radio, he still had to learn to do this
particular job
The 9th Division was stationed at Bearcat Base near Bien Hoa
o The barracks that Charles was in was very secure
After a few weeks, Charles was infused with the 11th Cavalry
o This was done because the army didn’t want the entire division coming back at
the same time
o The 11th Cavalry was a search and destroy division. They had access to personnel
carriers and tanks. Charles was put in K Troop
o When he was reassigned, he was flown out into the field where K Troop was
K Troop was sent on search and destroy missions as well as recon patrols (in the first few
months this was largely done between Saigon and the Cambodian border)
o During the night, they went on ambush patrols and set up listening posts
o They operated in dense jungles. Instead of walking on existing trails, K Troop cut
their own
o He joined the 11th before Christmas 1966 and didn’t have major contact with the
enemy until May 1967
They were often ambushed by the VC while escorting combat engineers along Highway
1
o Every Tuesday, they stopped at a village along highway 1 to assist villagers. On
one occasion, a platoon stopped at a village and was nearly wiped out
(21:20) Every night, several men from each personnel carrier were sent out for listening
posts and ambush patrols
o They never went out with a man from the same carrier. The patrols and guards
would stay out all night
o When they moved through the jungle, the tanks went first and knocked down the
large obstacles for the personnel carriers that followed
When they approached a village, they would use translators to communicate with the
villagers
o Charles and his comrades gathered the villagers and searched the huts for
weapons. If any war materials were discovered, they were destroyed along with
the huts.
o None of the villagers argued with them because they were outgunned. This is why
most engagements were ambushes
�
They were in a base camp only when they needed to repair their vehicles. Other than that,
they formed a circle with the vehicles when they stopped
They never operated near the rubber plantations because the rubber trees were too
valuable
o If they were in an area such as this, it was only to cross from one jungle area to
another
(25:30) In May 1967, things start to escalate
o An engineering unit and one of K Troop’s platoons had fallen under attack and
Charles was part of the relief force
It seemed that they were getting enemy contact every week
o Whenever they got ambushed they were always on a main road headed for the
jungle. The enemy always seemed to know where Charles’ unit was going
o They would hit K Troop with RPGs and automatic weapons. Some of the soldiers
in K Troop looked one way, some looked the other; this allowed them to cover
both sides
o If the VC hit a vehicle, there would be two explosions because each vehicle
carried a large amount of ammunition and explosives. Each destroyed vehicle
usually meant that around six men were dead
o Charles used a mounted 50 caliber machine gun to fire back with. K Troop was
often on their own in the situations. Air support was useful in long ambushes but
not in short ones because it took a while for the aircraft to reach their position.
The average ambush lasted about 2.5 hours
(31:20) K Troop suffered around 50 percent casualties while Charles was in Vietnam
K Troop operated independently and didn’t know what the other troops were doing for
most of the time
Charles and his comrades thought that marching on foot was better than riding in the
vehicles
o During the time that they were frequently ambushed, no one was killed by rifle
fire. Explosions frightened the men more than small arms fire
K Troop was eventually sent to a place called Slope 30
o They set up on top of the slope during the day and sent out patrols and listening
posts
o One night at around midnight, the VC attacked K Troop while Charles was
outside of the perimeter with an ambush patrol. All Charles could do was lay low
because he was caught between friendly and enemy fire
o While the enemy force was retreating, some of them discovered Charles’ position.
They engaged each other with rifles and grenades. When the fight was over,
Charles and some of his comrades had minor shrapnel wounds
Charles went out of the country for R&R twice, once to Bangkok and once to Okinawa
o When he went on R&R, he was able to put the fear of combat behind them
o They were occasionally allowed to relax in Vietnam during the periods of
inactivity
All supplies were brought in by chopper
�
o Three or four times a week, hot meals were flown in. They ate rations for the rest
of the meals
o They had access to all the beer they wanted but no one got drunk because it would
be miserable in the heat
o K Troop came across prostitutes when they moved into populated areas
Morale was difficult to maintain because they were often ambushed
o Additionally, they had to pick up all of the dead bodies after an engagement
(43:00) Charles was awarded the Bronze Star
o Charles’ vehicle was not working properly and one of the other vehicles had to
drop back so that they wouldn’t be alone. As the two vehicles were following the
convoy, the reinforcing vehicle was destroyed with an RPG.
o Instead of driving away, Charles turned his vehicle around and returned fire
Perhaps ten percent of K Troop was black
o None of the men smoked marijuana in the field. Charles tried it once but realized
that it was a stupid thing to do when the enemy could attack at any time
All of the officers were good except one lieutenant that came in several months before
Charles rotated home
o They were ordered to go out on a patrol and the lieutenant wanted to march along
a dry creek bed. Charles and his comrades refused to do this because they would
be sitting ducks if the enemy attacked them. Their captain agreed with Charles
and they proceeded to walk the way Charles preferred
As his time in Vietnam grew short, Charles was very cautious because a lot of people
seemed to get killed just before their tours were up
(49:35) When it was time for Charles to leave Vietnam, he was flown out of the field
and taken to a processing center
o He flew out of Saigon and landed in Oakland Army Base, California, it was
December
(49:30) Post- Army Life
When he landed in California, it was midnight but there were a few protestors
Charles got on a plane to Chicago and from there he went home
o He didn’t talk to his family much while he was in Vietnam
Within a week of getting home, he went back to work
o For about a year, he drank every day after work and got into fights (2 to 3 fights
per week)
o This largely came to an end when he met his wife
Charles went to junior college but he didn’t know about all the things he was entitled to
as a veteran
o A lot of the benefits were made known to him as men returned from Iraq and
Afghanistan
He thinks that his time in the military made him a better person
o However, he is more alert of his surroundings and his patience is not what it used to be
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_WhortonC1898V
Title
A name given to the resource
Whorton, Charles E (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-17
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Whorton was born on January 2, 1947 in Mobile, Alabama. His family moved to Benton Harbor, Michigan when he was young. In 1966, Charles was drafted into the United States Army and trained as a radio operator. When he arrived in Vietnam in December 1966, Charles was placed in K Troop, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment. K Troop traveled through the jungle with tanks and armored transport vehicles. Since they were a search and destroy unit, they frequently came into contact with the enemy. When Charles returned from Vietnam, it was difficult for him to adjust to civilian life.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Whorton, Charles E.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Raulend “Ron” Whiteis
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: We are talking with Ron Whiteis of San Diego, California, and the interviewer
is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project. Okay
Ron, start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where and when
were you born?
Veteran: Chicago, Illinois in 1946. We moved to Indianapolis when I was 2.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And from the age of 3—all the way up from there, I didn’t really have any parental
supervision. I used to wander the neighborhood. I did what I pleased. Really never got the memo
on religion or anything like that.
Interviewer: Okay. Well, were your parents both working or…?
Veteran: My mother was deeply depressed and my father was working all the time as the head of
Glidden Extraction in Indianapolis.
Interviewer: Okay. And did you have brothers or sisters?
Veteran: Actually yeah, I had 3 brothers and 2 sisters.
Interviewer: And were they older? Younger?
Veteran: 2 older brothers, 1 younger brother, and 2 younger sisters.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: So, I am kind of right in the middle.
Interviewer: Alright. And where did you go to high school?
Veteran: I went to Arsenal Tech High School in Indianapolis. It was a vocational high school.
78—76-acre campus. Very large.
Interviewer: Alright. And when did you finish high school?
Veteran: In 1966. I was supposed to finish in ’65 but I took a year off to go to the movies. I
figured out the system, I worked it so I never got in trouble or got caught. For a whole year.
Interviewer: You just kind of didn’t go to school?
Veteran: I went every third day. Because after the third day, they had to get a note from a doctor.
So, I went every third day. And then I took the rest of the time off. I had a really good time.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But mostly it was because they kept sticking me in vocational classes and I hated that.
And I just didn’t—and I was dyslexic. I didn’t do well in school.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you know—were you diagnosed as dyslexic or…?
Veteran: Not until I got to college. And the psychology teacher was talking about all of this stuff
and said “Now don’t begin to think that you are part of that.” And I asked him afterwards, and he
asked me a few questions and then after a while he said “You’re dyslexic, that’s what is wrong
with you. You are not stupid.” And they gave me an IQ test and I take—I scored 126. But the
one they gave me in 6th grade, I didn’t even make it to 100. Because I couldn’t read. (00:02:32)
Interviewer: Okay. So, how did you wind up getting into college?
Veteran: I wanted something different than the life I had. I grew up very poor and I don’t know
where the idea came from but I decided I wanted—I wanted to know everything. I wanted to
�know the world. And I thought that that would give me the world. It didn’t, but it taught me how
to find out what I needed to know.
Interviewer: Alright. So, where did you go to college?
Veteran: I went to Southwest Texas State University. It is now called Texas State University.
Interviewer: Okay. How did you wind up there?
Veteran: I came home from Vietnam and served my last 6 months at Fort Hood.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I met a woman in Temple, Texas and I don’t know…I didn’t think I was going to get
married but I thought this might be a good bet. You know? And so, we got married.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: My brother was David Garcia of ABC News.
Interviewer: Okay. Well that’s sort of—that’s coming after your time in the Army. But
now before. You graduate from high school in ’66?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. And then, what did you do after that?
Veteran: I worked for American Fletcher National Bank. I was doing computer stuff: check
processing and balancing, accounts.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you could work with the machines and things, you just didn’t read
well.
Veteran: Yeah. I didn’t have any problem with numbers, just reading. (00:04:04)
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, is this what you were doing until Uncle Sam came
looking for you or…?
�Veteran: Yeah. They turned me back the first two times because like I said, I was only 130
pounds and I was six foot three. Or six foot two. I gained another inch. So, that was fine with me
because I didn’t want to go there. I was pretty much a wimp.
Interviewer: Okay. And what did you know about Vietnam at the time?
Veteran: Not very much. Not very much. I was too busy, you know, trying to figure out my life.
So, I just—I really didn’t think about it, other than the fact that I didn’t want to go. You know.
Interviewer: Okay. And so now when you finally do get the call—so when do you actually
enter the Army?
Veteran: I entered it in July of—the 23rd of ’69.
Interviewer: Okay. And where did they send you for basic training?
Veteran: Down in Kentucky at Fort Knox.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And then down to Louisiana for AIT.
Interviewer: Alright. Now you said you were not an athlete?
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: Okay, so what was basic training at Fort Knox like for you?
Veteran: Like the Death March of Bataan. Every morning, we’d have to go out and run a few
miles. And at the end of that, we were supposed to eat and I couldn’t. So, I became even
skinnier.
Interviewer: Did you eventually get into shape or get stronger?
Veteran: Well, I found that there was a resilience in me that I hadn’t known before, that I would
not give up. Especially when they would march us down to the rifle range every day, down
Misery Hill and march us back up. And it just broke your heart because you think you saw the
�top, and when you got to there, it turned and went further, and it kept turning and going further.
And you—and everybody—half of the company dropped out. I wouldn’t quit. I wouldn’t quit. I
didn’t know that about me. I just wouldn’t quit. (00:06:17)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: When I got to the top, I thought I was just going to keel over dead. I was just—I
couldn’t see, I couldn’t hear. Moisture coming out of my eyes and mouth and nose and
everything. I was pathetic. But I wouldn’t give up. And you know, I wrote about that because by
the end of basic, the last time I walked up that hill, I didn’t break a sweat. You know?
Interviewer: Mhmm. And did you eventually adjust so you could eat?
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now the—how did the drill instructors treat you during this
process?
Veteran: Well, we had a few that was…treated us badly. But ours was a—he recognized that
most of us were a little bit older and said “Look, if you just try, we are not going to harass you
like that.” And it was a good thing because we wouldn’t have put up with it. You know, you can
get a 17, 18-year old. But when you get to be 22…you know…
Interviewer: You actually had a company or platoon of you that were mostly older that
they put together?
Veteran: Yeah, ours. I don’t know how it happened but—well, kind of. A lot of us—there was 4
different things and a lot of us got to be every 4th number so we would be together.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: We figured out okay, everyone—squeeze in line up every 4th person. And then we were
all together.
�Interviewer: Alright. So, you found your own way there. Okay, so—now, and then, what
about the…Okay, so the discipline stuff wasn’t quite as bad maybe as it might have been
for another unit? Or another platoon? (00:08:03)
Veteran: There was one that they replaced the drill sergeant because he got out of hand. And had
some blanket parties and stuff. And see I’d have just killed his ass. I would have at that time. I
figured I was going to die. I am going to Vietnam and I am going to die, I won’t be back.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know? So, I don’t have to put up with that.
Interviewer: Alright. But in the meantime, you survived basic training. And then off to
Fort Polk, Louisiana for your AIT?
Veteran: Mhmm.
Interviewer: Okay, and what was that like?
Veteran: Wet. I mean, dry and dusty and just more of the same stupid stuff. And then I got a
chance to go to APC training and I went to that back in Fort Knox again.
Interviewer: Okay, and then…explain what that is.
Veteran: That’s an Armored Personnel Carrier. How to drive one, how to drive it across the
water, how to swim it.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:09:00)
Veteran: And then when I got to Vietnam, they put me in the infantry.
Interviewer: Alright. So, was the APC training on top of the infantry training at Fort Polk?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, you basically had 3 stages of training there. That was two.
Veteran: Yeah. Well, if you’re already going, why not?
�Interviewer: Okay. Now at Fort Polk, what—how was that different from Fort Knox in
terms of what you were doing?
Veteran: I think that they were a little less intense at Fort Polk. And they were willing to listen to
the men. And one of the men went down and told the—wanted to see the commanding officer
and said the food here is awful. And he came down and tried it and raised holy hell. And then he
came down there every day to ask is this good? Is it good enough? You know. Got any
complaints? Tell me. And we had good food from then on. (00:10:00)
Interviewer: Alright. So, you’re experience in the Army has allowed for some push back.
Okay. Now, how did the APC thing happen? Were you just…?
Veteran: They asked if anybody was interested in signing up and I signed up. I didn’t think
they’d call me but they said yeah. So, then they shipped me out there and I learned how to drive
one of those big—it was fun. It was fun. You know?
Interviewer: Alright. So, you just got to play with big machines basically?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: And how long were you then doing that?
Veteran: I think that was like a 6-week course or 5 weeks. I don’t know, it wasn’t very long.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, when did you finish that?
Veteran: Sometime in the early part of December, I think. Because that meant I had a month
leave, and then I had to report back: California, January…I want to say the 12th.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, they just processed us, put us on a plane, flew us to Japan. Alaska to Japan,
and then Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay. Was it a military plane or a chartered civilian plane?
�Veteran: I don’t know. It was a pretty big—pretty big plane. There was no first class.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: They wouldn’t let us off and it was a little disheartening when we got to Japan and all
the crew got off, then flew us to Vietnam you know.
Interviewer: Okay. And where did you land in Vietnam?
Veteran: I want to say up near Huế or Da Nang. Da Nang I think.
Interviewer: Da Nang quite possibly, yeah.
Veteran: Yeah, Da Nang.
Interviewer: Okay. And then what happens to you when you get off the plane?
Veteran: They put us in some crappy barracks and that’s when I found out that I should have
brought money because people were having little quiet meetings with the people who were
assigning jobs. And I snuck around and looked and saw they were passing money and I thought
why didn’t I get the memo on this? I could be in Saigon. You know? In a comfortable berth.
Interviewer: What did you get instead?
Veteran: I got to go to Huế and then up near the…I am trying to think. It was Fort Campbell
firebase. It was up near Quang Tri. (00:12:18)
Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. I am not sure which—there is Camp Carroll but that is a little bit
farther inland.
Veteran: Well, this was out.
Interviewer: Okay. But basically—Okay, well what unit were you joining?
Veteran: The 101st airborne division.
Interviewer: Okay. And when you first come up to join the 101st, do they give you some
kind of orientation before you go to your unit?
�Veteran: Yeah, they had the—we’d be on call all night long at the perimeter. And then they’d
have some classes and I fell asleep in one and the lieutenant gave me a grenade to handle and
took the pin out and said “Now you won’t fall asleep.” And I said “Boy, you really are the
stupidest motherfucker I have ever seen in my life because when I fall asleep, I won’t know. You
all will be dead.”
Interviewer: So, what happened to the hand grenade?
Veteran: Well, he was very nervous and cut the short—cut the lesson short so he could get it
back and put the pin back in it. But I thought that was stupid. You know? I could have fallen
asleep and killed everybody there.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did they teach you anything useful in that training?
Veteran: No. No, not at all.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: All conventional, not jungle.
Interviewer: Alright. So, you get a few days of that and then what specific unit do you join?
Veteran: They sent me out to the unit…I think it was 2nd battalion of the 506th?
Interviewer: Okay, 506th regiment. Okay, and then which company?
Veteran: Company B.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And the captain there took one look at me and said something disparaging and get rid of
him along with that other one too because they don’t look fit. He was a gung-ho, Rambo type
and so they shipped me off. This was a lucky thing, you know. Because they shipped me off to a
bunch of short timers. And I begged them to show me everything they knew about staying alive
�because they survived the A Shau Valley and they must know something. And they did.
(00:14:22)
Interviewer: Okay, now just explain this a little. So, you go in to—was the company in the
field? Or were they on the—
Veteran: Yeah, they were in the field. On the hilltop.
Interviewer: Okay, so what was the company commander—he just didn’t want to look at
you? Or…?
Veteran: No, he said something about what the fuck is this crap here? You know. Get rid of it.
Interviewer: Okay, but he wasn’t—they didn’t actually send you—
Veteran: He wanted robust men to go out and fly out at a moment’s notice to fight.
Interviewer: Sure. Okay.
Veteran: And I didn’t look the type.
Interviewer: Yeah, well that part I get. I am just kind of wondering: did he expect you to
get sent back to the rear? Or…?
Veteran: No, just send me to a platoon that wasn’t doing anything, to get me out of the way.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you moved on. But then—and then that’s the point where you kind
of connect with a guy who—
Veteran: I was very lucky. They taught me everything I needed to know. And I used that
information to stay alive.
Interviewer: Okay. What kinds of things were they teaching you?
Veteran: How to not make a trail. How to quietly go through, how to spot if there’s any kind of
mines or booby traps or anything like that. How to read a map: how to be able to look at that map
and see the best route from place to place. It’s not easy. How I could take them up and down a
�mountain instead of down in a path. How to train everybody around me to hand signals so that
they wouldn’t make any noise. We had to—I felt like I was following my father’s Indian
tradition to—you go through the land and never make a mark. And it was great. And I took over
my platoon because of that. I was a private and I felt I knew more. I wanted to live and so I took
over the platoon walk point for 9 months. (00:16:10)
Interviewer: Okay. At what point did you start doing that?
Veteran: Well, as soon as those guys got dropped to go home and they reorganized and put me in
another platoon.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so—
Veteran: When I say I controlled it, I did. The sergeant was a short timer. He didn’t care. And
anytime we got somebody that couldn’t get with the program, I had the company ship them off
and somebody else could come into the platoon. You know?
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so remind me again. So, when did you arrive in Vietnam?
Veteran: I arrived there about the 12th of January in about—
Interviewer: That’s right.
Veteran: By the end of January, I think I was in another platoon.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I learned quite a bit about—I’m not bragging, I am just saying this is what happened
and I have—at the time, I had never led anybody. I had never taken control, I never—suddenly,
there’s a different person here. Who thinks, okay, if I am going to live, I better have a hand in
this.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you have a lieutenant commanding the platoon?
Veteran: No, we just had a sergeant.
�Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so he was supposed to be providing leadership and…
Veteran: Yeah, but he was a short timer and I think he kind of realized I knew more or
something. He didn’t—I don’t know why, he just let me take charge of everything.
Interviewer: And pretty much the rest of the guys were new guys now?
Veteran: I am sorry, what?
Interviewer: Were the rest of the guys new guys after that first group left?
Veteran: Some of them were fairly new, along with me, and some of them were there a while.
But they stuck to me. They stuck to me and I didn’t find out until much later. I felt my mission
was to stay, number one—me, alive. And then protect and keep everyone in my platoon. Nobody
was killed, nobody was injured. We weren’t run over. One of the few platoons that were never
run over by the enemy. And I just chose to travel everywhere that would be unlikely to run into
any kind of trouble that would hurt anybody. (00:18:24)
Interviewer: Okay. So, at this point in time, your platoon is normally operating by itself?
Veteran: And then every so often, after two or three weeks, we’d join up with the company and
we’d…
Interviewer: Okay, now what comp—what area were you operating in in January,
February, early in the year?
Veteran: Early in the year, we were down in the lowlands just by the mountains. By the foothills.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, we did have some hilly country there but we weren’t up in the mountains.
Interviewer: Alright. And was there much enemy activity at that point?
Veteran: No. No, really not. And in March we went up there and was put on the firebase to guard
it while they opened up that firebase. I don’t remember the date of it but I know it was in March.
�Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So…But then we were off again, roaming around the mountains.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, your company—I mean I guess the 2nd battalion 506th that you
were with—you were with them and they had the job of setting up a firebase on the hill
that comes to be known as Ripcord. And the first attempt was in March and A company
went in and they were not successful. April 1st, B company was sent there.
Veteran: So, that was in—I thought it was March but that was…
Interviewer: Oh, okay. So, what is—
Veteran: I lost track of time.
Interviewer: So, what do you remember about that? Did you actually land on Ripcord
yourself?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. So, what happened that day?
Veteran: I don’t remember much of anything except that I was trying to find a bunker. And I had
seen the one down at the very end being built. And I chose that one, to be down at the very end,
because it was a better-built bunker than any of the others. And just guarding the place until they
took us off. (00:20:15)
Interviewer: Okay. Well, that’s later because the April—1st of April, B company lands and
then they leave at night. So, you’re just there on the hilltop for a day and did not establish
the base. So, you don’t remember that? Where were you do you think, April 1st, 1970?
Veteran: Not sure. I remember that they were building a lot of the bunkers when we got up there.
They weren’t finished. And they were bringing in cannons, the 105s and the—
Interviewer: Okay. That would come later once they actually had taken over the hilltop.
�Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: But there was, B company was on and off in the space of about a day and then
they were back patrolling the jungle again?
Veteran: Yeah. I remember we were just shuffling. It didn’t make much sense to me.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You go where you’re told.
Interviewer: Okay. So, it wasn’t really registering with you at that point what exactly was
going on?
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: You were on a hilltop, then you left the hilltop, and then you were patrolling.
And then you come back later and the base is now under construction. And you wind up
being kind of on perimeter guard for that. When you are patrolling around in the jungle,
around the time when they were—before you wind up with the regular duty up on the base,
was there much enemy activity out there then?
Veteran: No, really there wasn’t. Well, a few others run into it. Quite frankly, I tried to avoid that
as much as possible.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, your platoon—was the company still operating mostly in platoons
at this point?
Veteran: I remember still being in platoons and running around on some of the mountains and
everything and meeting up with the, every so often, with the company.
Interviewer: The rest of the company.
Veteran: And then dividing up and going again (00:22:01).
�Interviewer: Okay. And…let’s see. So, how long were you spending out in the field, at one
time?
Veteran: Well…I am trying to remember. Pretty long time. We didn’t much get stand downs.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I had heard of them but we didn’t get them. I got a stand down because I got cellulitis in
my knee. Puffed up real big. And they put me on a—it was foggy, you couldn’t see anything.
And they had a ‘copter come in there, a slick. Put me on that slick and sent me back. And I
thought well, this might kill me. You know, fast. And then the doctor said you must stay in bed
and you must have them bring food to you and I thought I am not doing that. You know? And
then at the…the sergeant, the company sergeant, put me on the garbage truck you could at least
work. And the physician came by, the doc, and saw me and made me get down. And raised holy
hell about it. And that’s when I found out that I could easily lose my leg. And—because I had to
go every morning and have a shot of penicillin. You know. And that’s, you know. So, that’s
when the sergeant took a dislike to me. I think he thought I ratted him out but I didn’t. It was just
coincidence the doctor saw me and said “What the hell are you doing up there? Get down.”
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know.
Interviewer: So, this is just one of those infections you get in the jungle?
Veteran: I don’t even know what caused it. Could have been a scratch. Who knows? But it just
swelled up like a melon. You know, and I didn’t realize it was that bad. I just thought well, you
take a little penicillin, you’ll be fine.
Interviewer: Okay. Well, that attempt—I mean maybe, that might have been when the
company first went to Ripcord. (00:24:04)
�Veteran: It could have been.
Interviewer: Because it was fairly dramatic in most of their stories. But if you weren’t there
then…
Veteran: I don’t remember it so it probably—I was back at base for about 2 or 3 weeks.
Interviewer: Yeah, that could be right in there because eventually B company does go there
and they are the ones who do much of the perimeter guard work. And your recollection is
going to that base and picking out your bunker?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, describe a little bit then what the firebase looked like?
Veteran: Well, it was pretty barren. You know, they had all kinds of bunkers built in various, you
know, construction. I picked the one that was built the best. And there was a lot of traffic in and
out. And we had a select helicopter shot down bringing in ammo. They managed to get over to
the pad and set down and then they come out and took it away. They didn’t learn anything that
the reason the firebase blew up was because they shot one down over it and it blew up and the
ammo dump blew up and the war pits went up and then the 105s went up. It took 11 hours of
concussions before it finally finished. Before that we were on a hill. 805—his company—we
took that hill because they were using it to shoot onto the firebase. So, we took it away from the
enemy. We had a…what do you call that? We went en masse and helicopters went in…
Interviewer: Combat assault.
Veteran: Combat assault. And we took that. So, it meant—interesting things happened up there
at the time. One, we were constantly getting struck by lightning. I mean one time, I thought there
was an explosion. Another second later, it ran up my legs and made my heart beat funny, then
ran back down again. And I thought whoa. I was—I did not, I wouldn’t get in the foxhole
�because it was filled with water and I was afraid. The ones that were in the foxholes when it
hit—they got it the worst. So, I laid down beside it. A mortar came in and there was a great big
flat faced boulder. And it hit the boulder and went up like a ball of static right over the top of me.
And I woke up to that, you know, and rolled over into the…And three of them, the commander
and the medic and I think the lieutenant came rushing out there, because they thought I’d be
dead. And they couldn’t find a scratch on me. They’re like this can’t be happening, you know,
where you get hit right, like, between me and that door. It was that close. You know? Another
time, the company commander came over to me and said “Get your guys together.” And I
thought get your guys together? I’m a private. And he said “And go down there and check that
out because that’s where they’re sneaking in on us.” And I didn’t want to take that order and I
didn’t want to disobey it either so I had a thot come with me, which is a shotgun but shoots
grenades. (00:27:36)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And I imagine—I went to the edge of the thing, and I imagine the grid. And I started
firing them, further and further out. The company commander comes over and says “What the
hell are you doing?” And I said “Making a path, sir.” And he thought about it and he said “Carry
on.” And it turned out really good because when we went down there, they had—the Viet Cong
had dropped all of their weapons, including a machine gun and ran off. (00:28:07)
Interviewer: So, there were Vietnamese trying to get into the perimeter?
Veteran: Oh yeah, every night.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: We didn’t fire back. We didn’t let them mark our positions.
Interviewer: Okay, so what—
�Veteran: We had a lieutenant that was great with artillery.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And he would call it in on them every night. Close.
Interviewer: Yeah, so—so they basically said—would they get into the wire? Or were they
outside of the wire?
Veteran: Well, we didn’t put wire up on the hill 805.
Interviewer: Oh, that’s 805. Okay, I am sorry, I was thinking of Ripcord in the south but
you are talking 805.
Veteran: Oh no, we hadn’t gone yet.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: The company C decided that they wanted off Ripcord because they were constantly
getting mortars in on them. And I don’t know how they arranged it but one day we got notice
that, I think company A, came in to cover for us and we got to the firebase and took over for
them.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Walked over and they went off into the jungle.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, yeah, so you have your field time with—around hill 805.
When—did you have any Vietnamese scouts with you?
Veteran: I had a scout earlier than that. For a very short time. I don’t know what happened to
him. Nobody wanted him.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: So, I said “Okay, he can hang with me.” You know. And he used to cook up all kinds of
strange food and share it with me because he wanted me to taste this and try this. Well, it could
have been dog for all I know. You know? But it was better than C rations.
Interviewer: Okay. And was he any good as a scout?
Veteran: I really don’t see that he had any input whatsoever, he was just sort of there.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know, and he didn’t advise me to anything. He figured I was doing pretty good, I
guess. I don’t know. I remember that time that I used to keep all the food that they sent out,
where other GIs threw their—some of their least liked food away. Because when we ran out of
food and everybody was real hungry and they’d come over and want some food, I’d give them
that food. And also, I was known as the library because I carried several books. And people
would bring me a book and they would exchange it for another book because sometimes you’d
be out there and you’d be camped out there and no place to go and nothing to do. And they
would read for a little while, you know, to take their mind off things. You didn’t get to read very
often but you know, it was there. And so, I carried a lot of books. Books are special—were
precious to me at that time. (00:30:53)
Interviewer: You were able to read them?
Veteran: Well, not very much at a time. You know? I remember that when we were—when the
firebase was exploding, I had a book called How Green Is My Valley. I still have it. I haven’t
read it since. But I would talk to myself: if I could just read one more page, and then think about
what to do, it would keep me from panicking. Because they would come around and jump into
the—my little pit in front of my bunker and you could see in their eyes. They were like some
psychotic horse in a burning barn. And you’d try—I tried to talk them into coming in and
�staying, but after a little while, they’d jump up and run off the mountain. You know, so…I pretty
much was on my own but it used to scare the hell out of me when they would just jump in.
Interviewer: Alright. (00:32:00)
Veteran: You know, you could see that you couldn’t reason with them. You could see that they
were beyond reason. Fully panic mode. And I, every time, it made me panic and made me feel
like I should run too. And I thought no, that’s not safe.
Interviewer: Well, was there even a place to run to?
Veteran: Well, just off the hill.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Off the mountain. And I don’t know what happened. Some of them, I guess, got killed
running off the mountain. But I managed to just…I’d sit there, read the book, and I don’t
remember what I read and I read the same page over and over, about 20 or 30 times that day.
You know, trying to, you know…A little candle in there to read by and try not to panic, try to
hold it together. Try to, you know, tough it out. And I guess I was down there—my mate for the
bunker left and I don’t know where he went and I was down there by myself for 3 days. Trying
to stay awake and falling asleep. Trying to figure out the enemy were coming up the mountain at
any time. You know and…And I would have still been down there until the enemy come up, if
somebody hadn’t thought to send somebody around to all the bunkers to make sure everybody
was out.
Interviewer: Okay. So, basically, you’re in the last weeks of the Ripcord campaign. There’s
a period there in July of 1970 when essentially there is regular bombardment happening.
And you’re pretty much pinned down in the bunkers most of the time?
Veteran: Well, we came out and did stuff and then run to other bunkers.
�Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I was cleaning up on the top of the hill some stuff and taking it to the side of the hill,
the top of the hill and throwing it off. This was after the explosion, everything blew up.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we’d get incoming rounds and I would run in this bunker but that one day, a series
of things happened and I don’t know how. But 4 or 5 guys, I guess they are rear echelon people
because they had no sense, to walk all the way down there in a group. You know? And it really
irritated me. And they—we got incoming, and they ran into the bunker that I was using. So, I
went across the top of the hill to the bunker on the other side and it was not a very well built one
and I thought this is really dumb. Through all of this explosion, you are running across the top.
And then when I got all clear and came out, they took a direct hit right in the doorway. It killed
two or three and injured a whole bunch of others, and I would have been one of those. And just
because I got angry that they were all lollygagging around, coming down the top of the hill like
they were back on the—home on their block. You know, I knew they weren’t infantry. The
infantry wouldn’t have walked all together like that. So, and I just—it really irritated me. Now, I
wouldn’t go in there. (00:35:13)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was this on the last day? Or…?
Veteran: No, it was not—
Interviewer: A couple days before?
Veteran: A couple days before, because then they told us to get in our bunkers and stay there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And then I stayed there a couple days by myself. And I…
Interviewer: Now, was it normal to have just one man in a bunker?
�Veteran: No, it was supposed to have 2 but I don’t know what happened to the one that was in
there with me. He may have run off the mountain, he may have gotten killed. I don’t know.
There was nobody to talk to and I didn’t have a radio to contact anybody and I was just down
there and that was my post.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And then that’s where I had to stay.
Interviewer: Alright. And…So, we get to the last day, which would be July 23rd at that
point, and they evacuate the hilltop.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: And so, you were just there and somebody came to get you? (00:36:03)
Veteran: Yes, somebody came around to say send somebody around to all the bunkers, check to
make sure everybody was out. And they come down there and say “What the hell are you doing
here? We are leaving! Get up to the top!” So, I got all my stuff together in my rucksack and
everything and I thought—my legs were all shaky from fear that they would leave me. And I
started up the trail and I thought that’s really stupid because you can’t go around the side from
bunker to bunker because you don’t have the strength in your legs. You know? And about
halfway up, I looked, I was looking around, and there was no sign of anybody and I thought they
had left me and I kind of gave up for a minute. And I just kept wondering why they didn’t lob
something in on me or kill me, you know? I was a perfect target. I didn’t know at that time that
the Vietnamese—Viet Cong—were coming up the mountain at that time. And so they stopped
firing on us for fear of killing their own men. (00:37:05)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So—
�Interviewer: So, there was no incoming fire then at that point, when you are scrambling up
the hill?
Veteran: No, nothing. It was just dead quiet.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I almost gave up. I had the moment of giving up and then I decided, I don’t know,
something kicked in. And I decided this is not where I am going to die. And I cussed myself.
Move it. Move one foot after the other. Come on, you can make one more step. And I did that all
the way up to the top. Crawling along real slow. And when I got to the top, two guys ran out and
grabbed me and ushered me into the bunker up there. Lieutenant said “Get to the back drop,
everything. Get back up here and in line.” So, I went back there, I put a long range patrol in this
pocket, I put my wallet with all my family pictures in this, I put on a canteen, I put two
bandoliers of ammo, I grabbed my thump gun and I grabbed my M-16 and I went up there and he
said “Drop all of that! You can’t take that with you.” And I said “The hell I can’t!” Now, where
do you go from despair to total anger? And I said “Because if that helicopter gets shot down and
I’m not dead, I am walking out of here. I’ve got my map, I can do it.” And I just knew that I
would do it. I knew that I could go out at nighttime, because I had a terrific night sight. In fact,
when there was only stars, I could see the enemy on another hilltop, moving around. Other
people—I thought everyone could see that well but they apparently can’t. (00:38:40)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I just knew that I was going to get out of there alive if it didn’t kill me. And then
the helicopter was coming in, he didn’t have time to argue. He said “Go!” and I ran out there and
jumped on the helicopter before it even hit the ground. And 4 or 5 guys jumped on top of me.
And they bounced and took off down the side like that and an explosion went off and I thought
�we are hit, we are going down. And then the next thing I know, they were coming up and going
out through the valley. And I thought wow, I thought we were hit. You know? And then
everybody got off me and sat up and I was able to sit up and look around. I thought this is, you
know…When I was up there, there was only about 10 or 12 people left in the bunkers, so I know
that there was only one more slick coming in. Those helicopter pilots…They are the bravest
people I have ever heard of. They kept coming, no matter what.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They got us out. No matter what.
Interviewer: Now, were they getting fired on?
Veteran: All the time. They were getting hit. I remember one coming towards the mountain and I
said “Everybody get down, he’s been hit and I don’t know if he’ll make it.” He just barely made
it over the lip before he—it conked out. You know. But you could tell he’d been hit. So, they
came in. I don’t know, I’d never seen anything that brave before. They came in and they got us
wherever we needed them. (00:40:16)
Interviewer: Okay. So, when you were making your trip from the bunker back to where
the helicopters and stuff were coming, so that part, you were not taking fire?
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: That was just quiet. But once you get over to the side—well I guess, when
maybe when the helicopters came in, did they all start taking shooting?
Veteran: That’s when they came in. They had it all marked out. They had it all zeroed in to that
pad. And they would come in low and they would come up on top like that and set down. And I
jumped on it before it even set down. And 4 or 5 guys jumped on top of me, it bounced and off it
�went. And the explosion went off and I thought we are hit. We are going down. But that was on
purpose; they went down low and went out through the valley.
Interviewer: Yeah, and I guess before you left the bunker, when you were still down there
in the bunker line, did you see any Vietnamese out there?
Veteran: No. I kept thinking they would be coming up the mountain soon, because we didn’t
have anything to protect us, you know, other than the perimeter guards. And they never did. I
thought that was odd and I don’t know, I thought it was odd that nobody was shooting at me
while I was making it to the top. Because I was a good target. You know? I was very—moving
very slow. I had the most dreadful case of wobbly knees. The whole way up there I thought, you
know, there’s no way, they’re gone. They left me. You know, there’s not a single person in sight,
not a helicopter coming in, not a sound. I had been left. I don’t know what I was going to do.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So…
Interviewer: So, now you’ve made it back, and you get back to Camp Evans. Now what
happens?
Veteran: I stood on the pad. We were told to go to the company but I couldn’t leave until I saw
the others come in. You know, I just stood out there and I watched the helicopters come in to see
if all of our men came in and everything. I just—I couldn’t leave it. I felt like why me? I’m her
safe. They are still out there. So…And then we had to turn in all our weapons and everything and
go to our company. And then they took us to Beatle Beach? (00:42:36)
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: For our serve—that’s the first time we got R and R. That was already in July: from
January to July, you know, that’s the first time we had a set down. You know, stand down. And
�that month, they sent all of my money…No, it wasn’t that month. Yeah, it was. They sent all of
my money home. I had an allotment for my widowed mother. And they sent all of my money
home that month and I didn’t have any. And so, the guys shared up some money. And because I
didn’t drink beer because beer made me sick, one of the officers kept going in and getting me a
high ball and bringing it out to me so I would have something to drink, you know.
Interviewer: So, he could get liquor in the officers’ club but you couldn’t get it?
Veteran: You couldn’t get it, you know.
Interviewer: The enlist club.
Veteran: I am 22 year—23 years old at that time. But not allowed to have, you know, hard
liquor.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, after the whole R and R kind of period there, do you go back
out in the field again?
Veteran: For a long time, we were supposed to wait until we got more people in and they kept
having us do little things and training and all kinds of stuff. It was just to keep us moving, you
know, and finally, I guess we went back out sometime in August. But we didn’t go all the—they
had such bad weather, they trucked us out. And dropped us off out there in the foothills of the
rolling hills. We didn’t go back up the mountains right then. And then, my R and R came up and
I was called back in to do my R and R. And I had put down, I had purposely put down R and R
for September so I could get Australia because I thought well that would be great to see
Australia, but the previous company clerk sold it to somebody else. (00:44:43)
Interviewer: Oh.
Veteran: And I wouldn’t take R and R. I said “If I can’t go there, I will just sit here for a week. I
don’t care, it’s not a big deal.” “No, you have to go someplace.” I go “I am not going to Bangkok
�and I am not going to others.” Some of these guys came back with some dirty diseases that I
couldn’t walk near, and I am not…Of course, I—mostly it was because I was a virgin. So, I
wasn’t going to go do that activity. I just—it felt so sleazy. So, they said, “Well, if you’ve got
somebody that could come meet you in Hawaii, we will send you there.” I said “The only person
I’ve got is my mother and I don’t know if she’d come.” They sent out the paperwork and
everything and she met me in Hawaii and we paddled around on the…Hawaii. The people there
wouldn’t let me buy or pay for anything. Everywhere I went, you know, no matter whether it was
a store or anything, they just kept saying “Oh no, no, no. No money.” We went to see Don Ho.
And for my mother’s age, she was a good-looking woman and being a widow, Don Ho had
somebody come out and ask her if she’d come up on stage with him. He had a bar in the back.
So, he kept her up there for hours and I am like when do I get my mother back? You know, and
he was…it looked very intimate. It was kind of embarrassing: my mother is being romanced up
there by Don Ho, you know? And you’re not going to give her back? Do I discreetly leave and
pick her up later or what? I don’t know what to—what’s the protocol? You know? So, eventually
they sent her back and they had taken pictures up there and gave us the pictures of her up there
with—so that she’d have a memento. And it was very interesting. You know. And we went to a
few night clubs and saw some acts. I got to see some…what do they call that? The—it’s a
famous bar there that all the celebrities went to. It was right in the…it was right in one of the
main hotels or something. I can’t think of it now but I went in there and I thought this is where
the celebrities meet? It’s so tiny. You know, it’s just a bar and there’s no tables and stretches on
down to the end. You know? And we stayed at the…I can’t even remember the hotel we stayed
in. It was right there on the beach. So, it was interesting. I enjoyed the time that we spent there,
you know. It was the first time I was able to get any news of anything going on. They, you know,
�I hadn’t heard anything since July of ’69. I had no idea what was happening in the world.
(00:47:52)
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I had never heard of Kent State. And even to this day, somebody will say something
about—in the past and I’ll think I don’t remember that…Wait a minute, was it in 1970? Yeah.
And that’s why. You know, it’s like you’ve lost a year of memory. So… (00:48:13)
Interviewer: Okay. And then, what was it like having to go back to Vietnam at that point?
Veteran: Well, it was…it was kind of sad. With—I thought, well, you know you made it this far.
Maybe you’ve got a little luck still. You know. I figured it was about fifty percent luck and fifty
percent know-how. And that’s kind of modest. Well, not very modest but it’s the way I felt about
it, you know. And so, we went back there, we went up in the mountains for a while
and…Patrolling around and not much happening. Then next thing I know, they were calling for
me to go back early. And then they put me on perimeter and they processed me and we were out
there for a couple weeks, I think. And this Indian guy, Gabe Muselah. I remember his name
because he saved my life. He—when I first met him, he was shipped out there and he went
around and talked to a lot of people and got to me and asked me questions about things. And
apparently, whatever I said was right because then—from then on, he stuck close to me in our
troop, you know. He was looking for the best possibility for himself. And I understand that. I
was, you know, I wouldn’t want to be with some of those. GIs are dangerous, especially if they
don’t know what they’re doing or they do something stupid. You know? We had a guy carrying a
clay bird, always putting it on. And I said “Don’t do that, get rid of that. That’s dangerous. You
go out there one of these times, they’re going to booby trap it.” “Oh, no, I look at them pretty
careful.” Went out there one time, blew it up, he was dead. It was very shocking, you know. I
�shared a nighttime position with him. And they put his body in a bag and this sounds a
little…little insane. I spent the night talking to him. That’s crazy. (00:50:29)
Interviewer: You mentioned that fellow, you said he saved your life?
Veteran: Gabe. He—some, one of newcomers came in, they thought they heard a noise and they
popped a grenade. I already lost hearing. I didn’t hear it. And they threw it, only they threw it at
us. Because the positions, one was out in front of the other. They threw it over onto us. He
pushed me into the foxhole and jumped in on top of me. It exploded and all kinds of rocks and
everything came down on us and I thought oh my god, I made it this far and then die? Because of
some cherry over here that doesn’t, you know, is scared of the dark?
Interviewer: So, this is stuff when you were on perimeter duty? Like at the very end?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: This is just before getting sent home and I thought this is—there weren’t—how tragic is
that? How tragic is that? When, you know, you make it all this way and then some Jerry blows
you away with a grenade. And Gabe got out his knife and he went out there to kill him because
that’s the way you were at that time. You were just nuts. You know? And, but they, the patrol,
got down there first and got him away. And he came back and said “They took him away. I
didn’t get a chance to kill him.” You know. But, in normal talk like that, that would be
something normally you would do. You know, you’d just—normally, you’d just kill them.
Interviewer: At what point was your hearing damaged?
Veteran: On the firebase.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: Well, it started over up at the explosion that went off on 805. And this—out of this ear
was facing it. That’s the worst ear. But after eleven hours of concussion everything, explosions
and everything, I just noticed after that I couldn’t hear my watch tick and I didn’t hear a lot of
things. And I thought well, it’s probably good that we’re getting close to the end because you
know. You’d need, at night, you’d need to hear your hearing. Really bad, in case anybody is
trying to sneak up on you. And I had excellent hearing, excellent sight, before that. So…I would
have probably—I would have probably been just sitting there until the grenade went off, because
I didn’t hear it. He heard it and he jumped. Pushed me in there and jumped on top of me and I’m
forever grateful for that man. (00:52:43)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: He was a Zuni Indian. And we became friends, you know, before that. We took a
perimeter guard together, you know.
Interviewer: Okay. Was that sort of the last adventure you had in Vietnam?
Veteran: Yeah. Then they sent us on a…one of those big, fat looking planes down to Huế and
processed us and I didn’t sleep for days. I have pictures of me there: the circles under my eyes,
you know? And everybody was trying to be nice on the flight, you know, and you know. And
they took pictures with us and stuff, the ladies on the flight, the stewardesses. And you know, we
were joking and carrying on and like when they get ready to take off, everybody raise your legs.
You know, like it would help you get off the air and off the ground. And it was a—we flew to
Guam and then from Guam we flew to Seattle. And then they, I thought it was very funny, it was
like they wouldn’t let you go anywhere. They kept you bottled up and then they escorted us to
the airport and took us in there with a, you know, like you’re going to process to get them
processed through and put me on a plane. And they put me on first class. And they flew from
�there to Denver and I didn’t even get a chance to notify anybody. You know? And then they put
me on another plane and I finally fell asleep. And apparently, I was moaning and carrying on and
everything and they kept waking me up and I would go “Why are you waking me?” You know.
“Sir, you’re making a lot of noise.” And I didn’t know I was making a lot of noise. You know?
And I got home and found that my mother had given away a lot of my stuff because she had the
idea I wasn’t coming back. Sold my baby grand piano, gave away a lot of my clothes. I had a
comic book collection and I was sorry to see that go. You know, from when I was just a small
kid, I collected them. And they were all in—you know, I kept them in real nice shape and
everything. I just…I thought that was just odd, that she had given up hope or something, that I
would come back. (00:55:21)
Interviewer: So, like after she had been out to see you in Hawaii, she got rid of all that?
Veteran: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Maybe she—
Veteran: Maybe it was a protective thing, you know, to—that she needed to protect herself
because she had bouts of depression and everything and maybe she just needed that to think
that—get it done and stop worrying or something. You know, I—I felt a lot of sadness from my
mother. She made a lot of trouble for herself. Life was not good to her. It could have been better
but she just gave in to it. And I found that I had the opposite: I won’t give in to anything. I
can’t—I didn’t know I was—I didn’t know that about myself. I didn’t know that I was just that
stubborn. That I wouldn’t give in at all. You know? And when I—they sent me, I got leave to
after Christmas and then they sent me to Fort Hood. And they wanted to play war games and I
said “This is stupid.” So, I went over to the captain and I said “Hey, I hear you’re having trouble
organizing KP help? I can take it over and I can run it. And you won’t have a lick of problem.”
�You know, and he said “Okay, go ahead.” So, I did. I called in certain people from the field that
wanted to come in. I had a list of more people who wanted to come in. And I made up the
schedule and I said “You only get one script and you go back to the field, somebody else is in
here. 3 men on, 3 men off. You work 3 days on, 3 days off. And do what you want but you better
be here when it’s time. And no griping, and you work your butt off and you clean and you scrub
pans and everything.” The cooks were happy. They were just…this is wonderful. You know?
And then they—I was sitting outside reading, because when we finished, we would finish up our
work early and go out and take a break. And the captain—the sergeant came by and said—told
me to get over there and pick up this trash and take care of that. And I said “No.” And he said
“Oh yes.” And I said “Oh no.” And I got up and I walked into the thing and I knocked on the
captain’s door and I said “Look, if this is going to work, we are not going to be doing other
duties.” And he told the sergeant “Leave them alone.” He liked that I had it arranged, you know.
Where does a spec 4 get the idea to just say no to somebody? You know? Get that stubbornness?
(00:58:03)
Interviewer: Well, people—my impression is, when people come back from Vietnam, at
least sometimes did, there were things they weren’t going to put up with anymore. And—
Veteran: Yeah, you had your chance to kill me: you didn’t kill me. I expected to die. You know,
I had already figured that’s it, you’re going to die over there. That’s it. Or, you’re going to come
back—well, when I took that shrapnel in my back, I couldn’t feel my legs for a few moments.
And I hit it and knocked it and got it off my back where it was burning through three shirts that I
was wearing. And burnt me on the back and made me for a moment paralyzed. And I thought oh
god, please don’t let me be paralyzed. You know? And then, they wanted me to come in off the
post and I wouldn’t do it. I was like “This is not hero stuff. Don’t come out here: don’t come out
�here because then everybody will know where we are at.” And they did anyway and I thought
well, I can’t argue because that’s just making more noise. So, I went in, you know. They wanted
me to go back. They said “Well, you won’t get a purple heart unless you go back.” And I said
“Who gives a shit?” You know? Let me—just put some salve on it. If it’s not better in the
morning, I’ll go back. And that’s what he did: dressed it out there and, the medic did, and that—
the next day, it didn’t look so bad. And I never went back in, they just kept checking it every
day. You know? Wasn’t going to do it. (00:59:32)
Interviewer: How would you characterize the morale of your unit while you were in
Vietnam?
Veteran: Well, I don’t know about…There was some newcomers that came in that seemed to me
that they were living in a kind of fantasy world. “Oh, don’t worry: it’s going to be over any week
now. They are talking peace talks. It’s going to be over. I don’t need to worry about anything.”
And then you know, we had one in our platoon for a while. I traded him off to somebody else
because he sat down and said “I can’t climb this hill any further.” And I went up—I broke my
cardinal rule, because I went back down there after I unloaded my pack. And went back down
there and got him up and took his pack and I pushed him up to the top of the hill and I told him
off, all the way up there, you know? And he later went down the wrong trail and got blown up. I
don’t know whether he died from it. I don’t know. He certainly didn’t last very long in Vietnam.
But I could tell he was in a fantasy world. And you know, he didn’t take it seriously. And I
traded him off: I said “Get him away from me because otherwise I’ll kill him.” You know, I was
serious. You go a little nuts out there, you know? He was a danger to us. (01:00:52)
Interviewer: Yeah. So, morale was sort of—people just didn’t engage reality. I mean, did
you have—
�Veteran: Not morale. The people that was in my platoon was pretty good. But then, we avoided
everything that we could. And I didn’t want me to die and I didn’t want any of them to die. And I
realized if you take control here, now they depend on you. And if they get hurt, it’s because of
you. And that—I took that very seriously. I worked 24/7 for the whole time I was there to make
sure that nothing happened.
Interviewer: Okay, so we had been talking. I had asked a question sort of about morale,
and you were talking about your own unit’s morale. Your platoon’s morale was pretty
good—
Veteran: My troop was—we were pretty happy together. I used to get care packages from home
and my brother would slip in some whiskey and stuff and we’d be sitting around at night and I’d
share that with them. We’d all have a toast that we were still alive. I just wanted to say that it
sounds like I’m bragging here, all this stuff, but I don’t really understand how a kid can grow up
being pretty much a sissy, can suddenly turn in to this other person that I didn’t recognize. I
didn’t know this person. This person was stubborn, this person was all “make damn sure that
we’re going to do this, we’re going to…” You know, I would just become this other serious
24/7…By golly, if we’d—if it’s up to me, we are all going to live. (01:02:33)
Interviewer: Now, did you never have a lieutenant in your platoon?
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: So, you just end up—you had the whole—you had the sergeant, now did he go
away eventually and get replaced by another sergeant? Or…?
Veteran: Replaced by another sergeant. Who I threatened to kill because he said “We are not
going up and down any more mountains. We are going down this path.” And I turned around,
took my gun out of safety and I said “Well first of all, you’re going to shut the fuck up or I am
�going to kill you right now.” And I didn’t say it loud. I just said it in this voice, and I meant it.
And something on my face—I know that face. That face is my father’s face that will make your
bowels liquid. And I used it later when I became a teacher. Scared the principal. He came in one
day to view my class and somebody decided to act up and I gave them the face. And when I gave
the face, the kid scrunched down in his chair and the principal got up and left and I thought that’s
funny. Why would he leave? He was only here five minutes, how can he do my class? And I
went down there and the other principal said “Oh, he turned it over to me because you scared
him.” I am like, “What?” And I—my son told me “I know that face! I have seen that face on you.
You scare people with that face.” And it was my father’s face. I knew that face but I couldn’t
ever duplicate it in the mirror or anything. I was not being brave. I didn’t see myself as a hero. I
am not a hero. I am a practical thinking person that wants to stay alive, and I will do whatever is
necessary, to stay alive. You know? So, it sounds like I am bragging but I just—still to this day,
want to understand where that person came from. Where did that person come from, that all of
this stuff happened to you, the right and left of you, and only the—the only scratch you got was a
burn on the back from shrapnel? You know, people were dying right and left. And there’s times
out there, I thought I had gone crazy. And 30-some years later, when they threatened to get rid of
our cost of our insurance rate up real high, everybody talked me into going to the VA and seeing
if I couldn’t get their, you know. And so, they questioned me about my hearing and then they
started really questioning me about firebase Ripcord and what happened to your hearing and
everything else out there on that firebase. And I had a flashback and a meltdown. How can you
have a meltdown 30-some years later? Almost like it was yesterday. And I couldn’t make it stop.
It came in waves and I couldn’t make it stop. And they kept saying, “Oh, you have posttraumatic stress.” And I am like, “No, I don’t have anything. I am okay, I just can’t make this
�stop.” And they kept passing me from person to person. They kept saying that. They finally sent
me to a psychiatrist. And she said—I said “I looked at the DSM. I am not alcoholic, I am not a
drug user, I am not—I don’t have fits of violence, I don’t do…” You know? And she got it out
and said “This is what you looked at?” And I said “Yes.” And she said “Turn the page.” I turned
the page and I fit all of the sub-category. I thought oh shit: I’ve got post-traumatic stress. And I
am still having meltdowns from it. How do I stop this? You know. And she said “You need to
talk about it. You need to talk about it to anybody that will stand still and hear the story.” And I
can do that now a lot better because at first, it would make me cry. I would cry all the time while
I tried to talk about it. I’d get real emotional over it, you know. And I thought this—I don’t know
whether this is any good. I asked her “Does this go away?” And she “Well, it’s kind of ingrained
in your mind after all of this time. I don’t think that we can get rid of it but we can teach you
coping mechanisms.” And so, I learned coping mechanisms to cope with it, you know? Coming
here, I didn’t know whether I could do it. I said “I am going.” I said “It’s probably going to scare
the shit out of me.” I was sick for the first couple hours of the drive up from San Diego. Then,
when I got to about halfway, I started feeling better and got here and… (01:06:59)
Interviewer: Is this the first meeting you have come to?
Veteran: I went to the one in Fort Worth when I was living in Texas.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But to travel anywhere, I always—or to go outside of my comfort zone. But I did get
stuck once in my apartment with agoraphobia. And I knew that I had to keep pushing the
envelope. So, what I used to go by is that—is something I read someplace that said “What would
you do if you weren’t afraid?” And then I would go out and do it. You know? But it helped. It
kept me from getting—coming unglued. You know, I kept going places by myself and pushing
�the envelope as far as I could push it. I didn’t know whether I would make it here. I thought this
is going to be very embarrassing if I get about halfway and turn back. You know? And I was
sick. I thought I am sick; I don’t think I can go. And I was like, you know, grow up. You drove
here, you know. Just go. And I did and I thought, you know, I am just going to do it. I am going
to do it. I am afraid. I am afraid. I am frightened. I am going to do it. And when I got here, I was
just fine.
Interviewer: Yeah. (01:08:14)
Veteran: I was worn out, tired. Slept good that night. You know?
Interviewer: Well, it’s a good group.
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: It’s a good group here.
Veteran: It is a good group. These are men that I served with. Although, I tried to block out most
of it so I don’t remember the names and faces like I should. You know, it’s like I—when I came
back, I decided that I was going to just pack it up and put it in a corner in my brain in a closet
and pretend it didn’t happen.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And that’s what I did. I had nightmares and I would wake up in the middle of the night
in a panic and want to run. And no place to run. I would get up and read until morning, you
know. And everybody thought that was odd. I was very dependent on the word fuck. I loved the
word fuck. I used it all the time. Scandalized my family. You know? They didn’t know who I
was but they—and I think I scared them a bit. You know, because they sent away this little
wimpy kid and he come back and…It didn’t seem to me—I didn’t seem to be very aggressive.
You know? How did that happen? When did that happen? And in a way, I am not used to saying
�“Thank you for your service” and pat me on the back and say “You were a hero.” No. No, don’t
say that. You want to see heroes? Look at those chopper pilots that came in there and knew they
would come in there under fire to come and get us. That’s a hero. You know? I did what I did to
survive. I did what I did to make sure nobody around me got killed because of me, doing
something stupid. So, that’s not hero material. That’s just practicality. That’s just someone doing
what they have to do to survive. (01:10:10)
Interviewer: Which is, ultimately, what winds up leading you to do things that people label
heroic in a lot of cases. You weren’t doing it for that reason, you were just doing it.
Veteran: You are scared to death and you still do it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Now, you mentioned that when you got back, and you got out of the
Army, you were a different person. So, what did you then do? You got out of the Army.
Was that when you went to school then? Or…?
Veteran: Well, I went back to school. I got my degree. I got a regular degree because everybody
at that time was saying if you got a teacher’s degree, it wasn’t really a degree. So, I thought well,
because I have such stubbornness and pride in myself, that I am getting a regular degree and fill
it in with my electives with teaching credits and everything. And then I had to leave that because
both my wife and I got sick and we had the baby and so, I had to go work for my brother, doing
aluminum siding. And then I got a job on the railroad. And I worked on the railroad for 5 or 6
years and then Reaganomics killed that. And I come back to Texas and fought through
depression and you know, I got myself together and went to see a counselor who counseled me
that I should go back to my original plan, which was to become a teacher. So, I got the last 12
credits and got me a job over in Fort Hood. Now, that may seem crazy, to go to an Army camp
when I didn’t want to have anything to do with the Army. But they were paying the most amount
�of money. Nobody wanted to teach over there. And it was great. I loved it. But I did avoid going
out on, if I could, I’ll avoid it, if they had some sort of thing going on out at Fort Hood. I’d ask
somebody else to take my place and go. You know, and so I didn’t go. But I got the best job I
could and suffered a divorce right there at the beginning. And stayed because I wanted to make
sure my son—this was my kid, I raised him. I diapered him, I bathed him, I fed him. And I did
everything for him because my ex-wife was a little depressed at that time and she didn’t really
want a child, you know. And so, I kind of—he was my baby. I put him in a snuggly. You had to
buy a snuggly through a Woolworth catalog at that time. Covered the baby completely. You
couldn’t see it unless you were taller than me, to see there’s a baby in there. You know, I had—I
stooped over to get something at a store and some lady saw I had a baby in there and screamed at
me and run off to tell—call the police because I was abusing that baby. And I am like “No, it’s
like being back in the womb: he loves it.” You know? He’s all nice and warm in there and he can
hear my heart beating and I run a higher temperature. And so, he was like—it’s like just a
blanket. So, I stayed to raise him, make sure he didn’t become a dirtbag. Make sure he went to
college. Became a teacher and started out teaching math but I was a little too good at that
because all of my students passed the exit exam and that was not so good because there was
only—everybody else only had 60 percent. And I guess they were afraid that this would cause a
stampede for parents wanting their kids in my class or something, I don’t know. They asked me
to move over to social studies and gave me 4 preps for, you know, 4 different classes to teach for
my efforts. And I went down there and said “Do you have—you don’t have a psychology class,
could I teach a class that’s psychology?” And they said “That’s 5 preps! Are you nuts?” And I
said “Yes. Give me it.” And so, they gave it to me. Within a couple years, that’s all I was
teaching: psychology, sociology. And then finally, just psychology. You know? And it was
�not—here’s something funny: I decided that my class would be a give and take. We are not
going to discuss—you’re not going to learn dates and all that. You can talk to me about Freud.
What do you think about dreams? You think they mean anything? You got to have an opinion in
here or get up. You’re going to have an opinion. And sometimes it felt like I was on the edge of
chaos, conducting this and any minute now, it was going to be going to a riot. And the best
compliment I ever got is a teacher came down and knocked on my door after lunch and said
“What the hell goes on in here?” And I had been teaching—this was back when they were not
teaching sex education and I was teaching sex education in the one chapter because we had
already had two students turn up with HIV. And I decided nobody needs to die for lack of
information. So, I was teaching a very outward everything about sex. No matter how red my face
was, I was going to teach that. And I figured that she heard certain something and I probably,
this is when I got fired for this. And I said “What do you mean? What’s—what happened?” And
she said “I was just down in the lunch hall and a group of your students are arguing over Freud
down there.” And I thought, well, is this a bad thing? “Well, they never argued in my class over
anything down there.” I am like “Well, I just wake them up and send them out there into the
world.” You know? I would do things to provoke them, to get them into arguments over things.
To make them see that psychology is in your life every day. So, I enjoyed it. It was a little radical
but here’s the thing, I read this book when I was about 18 or 19, called To Serve Them All Our
Days by Rodney…Doctorfield?
Interviewer: Delderfield.
Veteran: Delderfield?
Interviewer: Yeah.
�Veteran: I stole all his ideas. And it wasn’t until sometime later I read the book again and I
thought oh my god, I thought I had all these ideas myself. And I just stole them from this guy
that come back from war and became a teacher. And I thought well, that serves me right. You
know? Thinking that I was really something. You know, to do all this. But it was great fun. I
enjoyed it. So, it was—that’ s part of what I did. I went back to school and go that degree and got
a job teaching and I stayed with it for over 20 years. And then I just—we got a whole new bunch
of officers in. The superintendent and the assistant superintendent and they—at that time I was
counseling students and they felt that we weren’t doing enough. And they loaded us down with a
lot of secretarial jobs. And I said “Have you read the state manual? It says I am supposed to
counsel 55% of the time. Do you know I have 7 students who are of suicidal ideation. I had to
get their parents in here and get them off to the funny farm so that they wouldn’t kill themselves.
I got 4 more I check on every day, at different times during the day, to see when they cross over.
I’ve got all the teachers alerted to send me anybody that is acting funny. That they might—you
know, were depressed and now they’re suddenly happy. Because that means they have figured
out a way to kill themselves.” And I thought, you know, I’m—nobody is perfect and I just—I
don’t think I can bear it if one of my students kill themselves and I didn’t catch it. So, I just said
“You know what, if that’s the way you’re going to be, I am just going to retire. I can sit at home
for more than half my salary. And I don’t have to worry so.” You know? It’s a lot of worry. You
don’t know how vulnerable these kids are. You don’t know. Until you counsel them and find out
so many of them are fragile. Especially with your parents over in Iraq or in some distant land
where they could die at any time. And they don’t know what will happen to them. So…Oh well,
that’s, you know, that was—I loved the career and I would have stayed but I just couldn’t deal
with not taking the time to talk to every student 3 or 4 times during the year. I had 350 students. I
�had to contact them all at least 3 times during the year to make sure. Not only for college and
scholarships and socioeconomic things and see how they were doing, socializing them. And you
know, there’s other stuff too. (01:19:14)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So…My dad told me when I was about 21 that I was a two-spirit person. I didn’t
understand it. He said “Don’t be afraid of it and don’t be ashamed of it. You’re a two-spirit
person. You always nurture, wherever you go.” I thought that’s an odd thing for my father to say
and I don’t know what it means and I didn’t want to—I didn’t want to ask because it was one of
those Indian things, you know, that he was fond of saying at—from time to time, you know, that
was just kind of creepy. You know. So, maybe I am a two-spirit person; I don’t know. I’ve
mentored all my life, in every job that I ever had, I was a teacher. So, it just came natural to me.
They always send them to me to teach. (01:20:05)
Interviewer: Now, how much of that, do you think, goes back to what sort of happened to
you in the Army?
Veteran: Well, the Army changed my life radically. I think it—I really do, I think it changed my
life radically. I would have never been the person I am today. You know? People say “Oh, I wish
that didn’t happen to me.” Well, yeah on the one hand, it was terrible. I lived through it. And I
changed. I no longer was willing to be stepped on and stomped on and pushed to the side. Now, I
fought back. You know? Let’s go do city. You know, you want to criticize me? Alright. I had an
assistant principal who hated my guts. She was always trying to get me fired. I kept good
records. When they’d take me down to the office to see the principal about some complaint or
other, and I’d get out my…And I didn’t say she was a liar, I didn’t say—you know. I said “Well,
I am sorry that you have been misinformed. Here’s what really happened.” After a while, the
�principal got tired of that. I guess he said “No more.” You know? “Stop this, whatever it is
you’re—I don’t know why you don’t like him. But leave him alone.” And so that was the end of
that, you know. It was just…I tried to teach everybody around me that when parents come in
distraught, do not escalate. De-escalate. And same in the classroom. You’re a teacher; you can
make it worse or you can make it better. Don’t give them an ultimatum. Say “Here’s the choices.
You choose. What do you want to do?” You know? Calm down. Get back in the swing of things.
You want to go down to the office? You want time out? You know. What do you want to do?
But I won’t put up with anything. You know, go around any corner, I got two degrees in
psychology, I’ll be waiting there for you. You know? I will outsmart you in every way. Don’t try
me. I’m a Vietnam vet, you know. I’m mean. We can have it sweet as pie or we can have it
mean. Your choice. You know? And I never had trouble in my classes like anyone else had. I
don’t, you know, I just—I thought, give them a choice. Let them choose for themselves. They
want to go down to the office? That’s fine. I’m not angry over it. Sometimes you need a time out.
You know, sometimes life just overloads you. And you bring that to my classroom and maybe
you need a time out. Tell me if you don’t want to be called on today. You need some time to just
contemplate. Okay, I won’t call on you. Now, let’s not make it a habit but if you have an
overwhelming day…just…And if you want to talk, I am here. I am always here. And my
classroom is like Vegas: what happens here, stays here. And anybody who spreads any rumors,
you’re out of here. You go around and share what you hear here, you know. And you have to be
sensitive to where you’re going because sometimes you have to stop them and say, “Wait a
minute, wait a minute. I think I know where you’re going. Think a minute. Is that something you
want to share? If it’s not, we need to stop here.” And you know why? I’ll tell you a real
happening. The guy across the hall taught biology. And he was having a really good time that
�day and he was telling them about—he was talking about reproduction. He was telling them all
the chemicals in sperm. And one girl raised her hand and she said “Mr. K—” Well, I shouldn’t
say his name. Said “That’s all sugars, isn’t it?” And he’s just like, “Yeah, you get it! It’s all it
really is. It’s all sugars.” And then he didn’t see where it was going and she raised her—she said
“How come it tastes so salty?” He went outside, closed the door and fell down laughing. He
didn’t know what to do. I said, “You’ve got to think down the road where this might lead. And
I’m sure that girl didn’t want to share that and I’m sure that it was all over school that she shared
that. You’ve got to stop them before they incriminate themselves. You know? Think a minute. Is
that something you want to share? Because I think I know where you are going.” And they
would say, “Uhhh…No.” “Then good. Move on. Let’s go on.” You know? (01:24:57)
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, that one would have blindsided me but…
Veteran: Well, it blindsided him. I felt sorry for him. I thought I don’t know whether you could
have prevented that one. I really don’t. But I just know that you’ve got to watch out when you’re
working with these kids. They say things. And a lot of them go home and kill themselves
because they think they can’t face life now, because they shared too much. They overshared.
You know? I closed down program after program as were—our altered programs. They come in
every year with training for a week. New stuff that was going to save education. And I would sit
there and I see globally. Not specifically, but globally. And I would see the flaw and I would
ask—I would try to ask a question, as innocently as possible so that it didn’t look like I was
causing trouble. And it would pull the tapestry apart. And they would fall apart, you know. And
so, they would have to modify it and change whatever they wanted us to do that year. Well, one
year they wanted us to a—have all the kids journal. Oh, it’ll be great. They’ll journal. And I said,
“Oh, I think you should think about this.” By that time, all the principals from the different
�schools and the superintendent and assistant superintendent was always in the back of our
training session. You know, and every time I thought well, that’s going to get you fired. It didn’t.
and I said, “This journaling, it could get out of hand because they may overshare and then they
will go home and kill themselves.” “Oh, no. I don’t know why you think things like that.” So, we
went in small groups and they tagged along to my small group and sat in the back. And the
teacher—I told a joke to the other teacher when we were supposed to share something. And she
came over there and said, “Well, how about sharing that with the group?” And I said, “I don’t
want to.” And she picked up the paper and said “Well, what is it that’s funny?” You know. And I
took it back and put it down. And she said, “Well, I mean you know, you could share this with
everybody.” And I took it back. And that—and I said, “See, this is exactly what I’m talking
about: you have authority and you’re using your authority to get me to share what I don’t want to
share. And then one of these kids are going to share something and they’re going to go home and
kill themselves because they overshared. All because of this, because you’re not trained to have
them journal.” And they all got up and left. And I thought, well now you’ve done it. You’re fired
for sure this time because they are going to just throw you out of here. Any minute now. Besides
all that, because I am teaching sex ed too. And all that ten years or twelve years that I did it,
nobody said anything and I don’t know why. Next day, we were told to go to our rooms and just
work in our rooms because they cancelled that. We are not going to do journaling. (01:27:45)
Interviewer: Alright. Well, the story has taken us in a lot of pretty interesting directions,
so, I think we’ve gotten a pretty good idea. But, you know, it all connects which is—
Veteran: Well, I am surprised I got through this without crying. That usually happens somewhere
along the line. Or being overwhelmed. I’ve been trying to follow the psychiatrist that told me to
get ahold of anyone that wants to hear and tell them all about it. And sometimes it does cause
�tears and, you know, sometimes it shakes me up a little bit. It was an experience. I am not saying
it was a great experience but it was an experience that changed my life. It made me a different
person. I don’t know whether that is good or bad. You know, I certainly became adamant and
stubborn. When my son wanted to quit college, I said “Oh, no. Over my dead body. You’re
moving back in with me and you’ve got a place to live and a place to shower and a place to do
your clothes and food that’s in the refrigerator and that’s all I can do for you but you’re going
back to college. You’re going to finish.” And he did. And I said—and then he said one time, and
he said to me “I am not sure college is great. I don’t know whether I can afford for my two
boys.” And I said “Oh, no. I want a promise right now that they’re going to college. I didn’t raise
us up out of the gutter for you—from trailer park trash to become this and then let them slip back
down.” Usually, the third generation it happens to. And I said—and he said “Well, I don’t see it
makes any difference.” I said “How much were you making before you went to college?”
“Making $32,000.” “What are you making now? $110? $120? It’s not worth it? You make three
times what I was making as a teacher. You know, when I started out. And it wasn’t worth it?
Damn right, it’s worth it. And I don’t care what anybody says: education is the key to becoming
something better in this life.” And I went after it: I came back from Vietnam and I went to
college and I had my family pulling and her family pulling and everybody pulling the other
direction. And why are you doing this? And you’re not smart enough to do this, you barely made
it out of grade school and you graduated from high school with a D- average. You know? Well,
there was a reason for that. I didn’t know that at the time but there was a reason for that, you
know. But I wasn’t going to give up. I wanted to know everything. I thought if I went to college,
I would know everything. Turns out, I don’t even hardly know anything but I know how to look
it up. I know how to find out that information. I know how to research it. You know? That’s
�what education does for you. And I know how to find out information so you can form your own
opinion. And you don’t sit around being ignorant. You know? I had only a size ten and a half
shoe when I tried to stamp out as much ignorance as I could. (01:30:56)
Interviewer: Alright. Now, in the meantime, you’ve filled—
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: And in the meantime, you’ve filled in another piece of both the story of
firebase Ripcord and told a very good story about what it was like to go through the U.S.
military and what it meant. So, I’d like to just close this out by thanking you for taking the
time to share the story today.
Veteran: I still don’t know—I still don’t understand all that happened to me there. I still don’t
understand all of it: what changed and when it changed and how it changed. Or, how I came to
this point. But like Cher, I think that all the things that happen to you make you who you are, and
if you like who you are at this point, and I do, then everything was the right thing to happen. So,
I’ll leave you with that. (01:31:44)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_WhiteisR2157V
Title
A name given to the resource
Whiteis, Rauland (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-03
Description
An account of the resource
Rauland Whiteis was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1946 and graduated high school in 1966. Whiteis was drafted into the Army in 1969 and attended Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, as well as Advanced Individual Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. He was then deployed to Vietnam with the B Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division as an infantryman. He participated in the combat at Firebase Ripcord and was only injured once in the back while in Vietnam. After being discharged from the Army in 1971, Rauland attended Southwest Texas State University, where he completed two degrees in psychology. He then accepted a position teaching at Fort Hood, where he taught high school classes for over 20 years before retiring.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Whiteis, Rauland Lee
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01a9b72c8e38b8bf64dc9851d46395c0.mp4
adafe6ce687dddf0aa90a1b5f2c21fdb
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/460550fadb17eb06437e669c506767af.pdf
f146a0902b7cd84808890b6738d6dbe3
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
BRUCE WHIPPLE
Born: Lansing, Michigan
Resides: Lansing, Michigan
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 5, 2013
Interviewer: Bruce, can you start us off with some background on yourself. To
begin with where and when were you born?
I was born in April, 1949 right here in Lansing. I went to school in Lansing and I spent a
little time in my early years in Holt, we lived in Holt for a while and then we moved to
Lansing. I went through the Lansing schools, my mother was an assistant to the principal
at Dwight Rich, so I knew all the teachers and could get away with a few little things and
she was always quite behind me with everything I did. She was always pushing me to do
better and to know people and that. I graduated from Everett High School in 1967. I‘d
gotten my draft notice just prior to that and went down for my first physical. 1:01 In
February of 1969 was when I had my actual draft induction notice, and at that time I went
out to a Red Cross Center and took a bus at 5:30 in the morning down to Detroit and went
through the induction process.
Interviewer: Okay, at this point, how much did you know about what was going on
in Vietnam and all that?
Absolutely nothing—in high school I was into cars and girls and just having a good time
and partying. I never paid any attention to the newspaper or the television or anything
like that; we were just out to have a good time.
Interviewer: Did you know anybody who had been drafted or had gone off to
Vietnam already?
1
�I had, because I was working at an auto trim, Schubel's Auto Trim. 2:00
And my
neighbor across the street, his brother had just been drafted and inducted and he asked me
to come down and help him out at the shop and doing that, I had no idea, I was still in
high school. I went down there and talked to Jack and this was on a Friday and I told him
I came down to help out if I could. Ken‘s brother was being drafted and I was going to
take his place and Jack said, ―Okay‖, and handed me a key to the door and said, ―Come
in Saturday and open up for me‖, and I‘m thinking, ―I don‘t know anything about this‖,
and he said, ―Just answer the phone and tell them I‘ll be in when I get in. Sweep the
floors and take care of things‖, and that‘s how it all started, and I‘ve been there over forty
years now. It was in 1965 that I started, and Ken‘s brother came back and I had a real
good friend of mine that I grew up with, Dale Hildebrand, he had joined the navy. 3:06
he was just getting out of the navy, he was actually in the reserves, but he needed a job,
so I said, ―Come down and work with me‖, so there were the three of us that were Jack
and Doc and I.
Interviewer: So, when you when you finished high school you didn’t have any plans
for college , at that point, or anything like that?
No, I had this job that I loved doing, and I loved working with cars, I loved—I mean it
was just such a natural, I mean, I couldn‘t believe that I could do this and they paid me
for it. I made money doing this and I just loved working on ―hot rods‘ and custom cars,
and meeting all the big guys from the custom—you know, Carl Casper and Big Daddy
Roth, I mean all these guys, they‘re California people, all these big names you see on TV
and you know, I can do this and enjoy it and I don‘t even have to work the weekends if I
don‘t want to, you know. 4:05
2
�Interviewer: But, they don’t give draft deferments for that.
No, they didn‘t. At the time, when I first got my first induction notice, my girlfriend
worked down on Main Street at the draft board down there, and that‘s where you went to
sign up and get all your papers and that, and she said, ―Well, I‘ll just put your card back‖.
It wasn‘t a number lottery thing, but just your name on a card, and she put my card back.
Well, that lasted about three weeks and I ended up getting my notice to go. 5:00 The
guys that I went to school with , Bob Taylor, his father was big in the National Guard, so
at the time, towards the end of—we‘re talking about graduating, and now we‘re
hearing—we got our draft notices and our cards are all 1-A and we‘re just waiting for our
induction papers and Bob was trying to get everybody to join the National Guard, and
just down the street from my house, two blocks, and thinking about it, we were all
thinking seriously about it, and think out of the five of us that ran around as a group—of
course Bob enlisted in the guard and his dad was a commander there and I think one or
two of the other guys joined the guard. Well, I‘m thinking, ―If I join the guard, that‘s six
years, and if I get drafted that‘s two years‖. 6:06 In high school I was taking up
architecture and engineering and drafting and that sort of thing, and I thought maybe they
could use somebody like that. I did auto upholstery and I thought they‘re going to need
people to patch tents and fix Jeep tops and seats and that. I thought, I‘d take a chance,
and I could do two years standing on my head, now that‘s what I thought. I got to
thinking, ―Six years, two years, I can do two years standing on my head‖, and boy was I
wrong.
Interviewer: So, now you go down and you get the physical and so forth, now where
do they send you for basic training?
3
�We went down to Fort Wayne in Detroit, that‘s the induction center and we were all
processed through, just naked guys in a line getting shots. We‘re all fine and they
couldn‘t find anything wrong with anybody, I don‘t think. 7:00
Interviewer: At that point, were there any people trying to find ways to beat the
physical?
Oh, everybody was trying to beat the system. Everybody, I mean, ―I got one leg that‘s
shorter than the other‖, and it doesn‘t make any difference. ―I can only see out of one
eye‖, ah, it doesn‘t make any difference, and we ended up going through that process and
then they put you in a room and have you raise your right hand and swear you in as being
enlisted in the service and they have you count off, 1,2,3. They had everybody in line
and had you count off 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, and 3 and then they said, ―Everybody who‘s a number
three step forward‖, and they said, ―Congratulations, you‘re a marine‖. They talk about
the marin‘s never drafted, well, yes they did, and I was lucky to be a two that day,
because all these guys, and I didn‘t want to be a marine, they were really in the deep
stuff, you know. So, we left there and got on a prop plane at the Detroit airport, Willow
Run, and it was the first time I‘d ever flown in a plane. 8:08 I‘d never been in a plane
or ever been near one, and we get in this prop plane and one of the kids, the guys I want
to school with, Craig Redman, we rode the bus down to Detroit together and talked and
we sat together on the plane. I mean, he was like, even, my big brother at that time, I
mean he was the one I---held me together, the first time I‘m on a plane, I‘m a nervous
wreck, we‘re going—and I‘m just totally wiped out. We fly down to North Carolina
because, normally, people from Michigan would go to Fort Knox or Fort Campbell, or
someplace like that. Well, they were full, so we ended up at Fort Bragg down in North
4
�Carolina, nothing but sand and pine trees and I‘m thinking, ―I‘m kind of used to this
being a Michigan guy, going up north, being at the beach, sand and pine trees‖, and man,
was that a workout, sand and pine trees. 9:05 To this day if my wife says, ―Let‘s go to
the beach‖, or ―The family‘s going to the beach‖, I said, ―Well, once they get all that sand
cleared off the beach I‘ll be happy to go‖, because I do not like sand.
Interviewer: What is the basic training experience like down there?
Oh, I was a little guy, I only weighed--I was about five eleven and weighed a hundred
and ten pounds and it was scary, I mean I was the small guy and you know, you gotta do
all these big guy things and something you‘re really not used to. Big guy things being
things like being able to do all these ladder bars and all these push ups and I wasn‘t
conditioned for that. I did grow up out in Holt, on a farm, so I was used to farming and
hunting and fishing and being in the woods. 10:03 As a kid we‘d go out and spear frogs
and fry frog legs or catch some—swim in the river and catch fish, or go ice skating down
the river and as a kid that‘s what I did. I was good with a rifle and we‘d go out with the
bows and arrows and sling shots, and everybody had their twenty-two rifle, and that‘s
what you did. That was my big downfall, I‘m thinking, I‘m not going back on my
experiences as a kid, I‘m going on my experience as going through school and the job I
had, you know, that would keep me out of being in the infantry. Well, needless to say,
my youth came into play and I was good on the rifle range, so I ended up in the infantry
unit.
Interviewer: Now, when you were doing the physical training parts was there stuff
they were telling you to do that you couldn’t do the first time? 11:00
Oh, definitely, yeah
5
�Interviewer: What happens to you at that point?
You just try to do more. I mean, you‘re in this barracks with—this huge building with
two floors and somebody‘s got to be up at night watching to make sure a fire doesn‘t
break out. You get up at five o‘clock in the morning and go out and do calisthenics, then
you run to a class, then you run to that class and then you come back for lunch and do
calisthenics before—you have to do calisthenics and ladder bar before you can even get
in the mess hall, and then you eat and run to wherever your next class is, and then you‘re
out on the rifle range or some other range practicing, or you‘re doing pugil sticks where
you‘re battling one another. You come back to the barracks and you‘ve got to clean, you
got to scrub the floors, clean the latrines, and everything‘s got to be spotless. You‘ve got
to polish your boots and then when the lights go out, then you have to write your letters
home. 12:04 Just to put something in the mailbox, because there‘s not enough time,
there‘s just not enough time, you‘re running just ragged.
Interviewer: How much emphasis did they have on military discipline?
Oh, everything was military discipline. You didn‘t talk to—you had to go through your
little chain of command even from—you had to go to your squad leader, to your platoon
leader, you couldn‘t just voice something unless you were asked, you didn‘t speak to
anybody higher than that, you spoke to them first. The squad of five to seven guys, your
squad leader was the one you went to, but your squad, everybody had to hold everybody
together, because if one guy didn‘t then the next guy didn‘t do well. 13:05 The whole
squad then falls and that puts you on another list and then you‘re doing KP and you‘re
out picking up cigarette butts, just every nasty little thing you can think of they got you
doing. You‘re trying to sneak food in because you‘re hungry and you want something.
6
�You know, I got caught sneaking in a can of coke to the barracks and had to do pushups,
and then they tried to take the can away from me and at that point I‘m so annoyed that
I‘ve done all these pushups and I want this can of coke. I grabbed it out of his hand and
started drinking it, and, of course, that made things even worse, so that put me on KP for
a while and a few more pushups every time and at that point I learned, ―Just be the little
quiet guy in the corner‖, you know, keep your mouth shut, just follow the guy in front of
you and don‘t look around. 14:01 That was what they wanted, that‘s what they wanted
you to do, you follow the guy in front of you and do what he does and whoever‘s in front
of him tells him what he going to do and the biggest thing was kill this and kill that.
Everything you did was scream, holler and kill and that just worked you into that form,
that form that they wanted you to be. I mean, at nineteen you‘re so—you‘re taking in
everything you can and you‘re so impressionable that you just eat that up and then they
tell you how big a man you‘re going to be and you‘re invincible, and that just sticks with
you. The guys that are training us, the guys that are running us through all this are
Vietnam vets that have just come back. 15:00 So, when you‘re having your breaks and
you‘re sitting around and having a little BS session, these guys are in the middle and your
eyes are this big around and just glued on them.
Interviewer: Were they trying to give you some idea of what to expect?
Oh yeah, and they said, ―What you learn here is nothing, you‘ll end up not using what
you learned here, but you want to remember what you learned here because by being in
that group is safety‖. If one guy does something and you know that‘s what he‘s going to
do then that covers you, because if he‘s going to do this, you know he goes right and you
7
�could go left, you know, that‘s the way it‘s going to be. You had to have this line of first
guy, second guy, everybody does what they do and you follow what they‘re doing. 16:00
Interviewer: They’re trying to prepare you to learn the stuff that you’ll really need.
What they‘re preparing you for is the fact that things are going to die, people are going to
die, it‘s going to be a lot going on, but they‘re preparing you just to be tough, I mean
everything‘s about fight and kill and even the guys when you get in with the punji sticks
and that fighting, you‘re out there to kill that guy, to do him harm and he may be your
friend. He may be your friend, but if he can‘t take it, or you can‘t take it, somebody‘s
going to die, that‘s what they put in your head. You gotta be physically fit and the road
guards they had when you ran down the company—you ran everyplace you went, nobody
walked, you ran. You ran down the company street and at the cross of it, where the street
crosses, you had to have a road guard. 17:00 And he‘d run out, block out—one on
each side of the road to block any vehicles or any traffic, so you guys could run through.
They took the real big guys, the guys that were overweight, they were the crossing
guards, so they had on these vests that lit up, reflected, but they‘d have to run up to the
street and block it then you‘d run through. Well, they had to run up to the front again and
catch everyone , so you could get to the next street, there wasn‘t the next guy in line that
did that, those guys, that was their whole thing, and that was how they got them in shape.
These guys, I had a guy that, Dipple was his name, I can‘t remember his first name, he
was our crossing guard, I mean he was a big guy and he got into fantastic shape. Twenty
years later I‘m out mowing the yard at home and he‘s moving into the house across the
street. I looked at him and I thought, ―Gosh that guy‖, and I looked at him and it came to
8
�me, you know, here we are neighbors, you know, twenty years later I think it was at that
time. 18:08
Interviewer: Now, were most of the men who were training along with you from
Michigan and the Midwest, or were they from a lot of places?
No, that was my biggest downfall as far as getting to reunions and that kind of thing. By
being in North Carolina there was only one platoon of us that were from Michigan.
Everybody else was from Tennessee, or Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, so that
was all their area, so then when you went on with your service you were still—everybody
was still in that same block. So, when we got done at Fort Bragg for basic, we went up to
Fort Dix in New Jersey for AIT, which they called Advanced Individual Training, but it‘s
Advanced Infantry Training, I mean that‘s all Dix was, and so, I‘m still with all these
guys from down south. 19:03 I don‘t like sweet tea and banjo music, and I wasn‘t a
country fan, country music fan, but here I am in the middle of these guys, you know.
Interviewer: What kind of backgrounds did they have? Did you learn much about
them?
Oh yeah, I mean the guys from North Carolina, Bennett, Lyman Bennett, he saved my
behind. He worked in a furniture factory. They had huge furniture factories and they
would take up four or five blocks and they just built all this furniture. He worked in a
furniture factory and a lot of them were just there because there was nothing else for them
to do. We had guys that just got bumped out of school and the judge gave them a choice,
you can do thirty days or three months or whatever, or join the military the end of the
month. 20:05
9
�Interviewer: Did you have any guys that were a little bit older, maybe in college for
a while and then out?
We had-----in Vietnam and John Henrich was his name, but most of the guys I was with
in basic and that, we were pretty much all the same age. Not too many college graduates
in the south and maybe that was because we were in the south, but most of them, we were
about the same age. I can‘t think of anybody, actually, that was a college graduate.
Interviewer: There were a lot of guys that I run into that had done a year or two of
college and then left for one reason or another, or their grades get bad and they
wind up there, but in the south, even among the white population, not too many
were necessarily going to college at that point, so that wouldn’t happen. What
proportion of them were minorities do you think? 21:01
I would say, all but one or two of our drill sergeants were black. I guess I‘d have to go
through and take out a picture. At that time I was just basically a farm kid that moved to
Lansing and race had—I had no perception of race. I mean, one of my friends, Terry, in
school, Terry, and just a few years ago we got back together for a class reunion and he‘s
telling me he‘s black and I‘m thinking, ―Wait a minute, you were my best friend in
school and you‘re not—―, well he was mixed race, yeah, and he said all the kids gave him
a hard time in school and I said, ―Terry, I don‘t remember any of that. I don‘t remember
us being that way‖. 22:01 I would say, in basic, probably a third were colored and it
made no difference. They ran right along beside you, they crawled over mud right along
beside you, they puked after coming out of the gas chamber with you, and like I say, our
drill sergeants, all but one or two of them were colored and they were the nicest guys in
the world. I mean, they were hard on us, but we knew shy they were hard on us. They
10
�were trying to prepare us for what they had already been through and they did a heck of a
job.
Interviewer: Now, how was Fort Dix different from Fort Bragg in terms of the
training you got and the experience you had?
Fort Dix was more parties, and Fort Bragg was by the book, straight up. At Fort Dix we
flew home every weekend. 23:01 I mean, we‘d only have like a fifty mile pass and
we‘d fly back to Michigan and there were five of us that flew back and forth to Michigan
every weekend.
Interviewer: How could you afford to fly back to Michigan?
The ticket was sixteen dollars and fifty cents and it was thirty three dollars going back
because coming to Michigan we‘d fly standby, so we‘d go on military standby for sixteen
dollars and fifty cents. Coming back we‘d buy a regular ticket.
Interviewer: You had to be sure you’d be back on time.
Yeah, we had to be back on time. We got stuck in the air one time in a snow storm and
we got back late, but nobody stayed on base as far as on the weekend and if they did, all
they did was drink. I mean, you‘d come back on Sunday night and it‘s like being in a
park atmosphere. 24:04 They got picnic tables and benches littered with beer cans and
that kind of thing. Everybody at that point, everybody knew where they were going,
because when you go to Advanced Infantry Training you‘re definitely low man on the
totem pole. Two of my friends from basic, one guy, Don Wilhelm, slept above me and
Steve Woodard slept in the next row of bunks, and Don was always upset, he lived in
Petoskey, he was a ski instructor in the winter, his dad had a housing construction
company that was there, so he worked there in the summertime building homes and had it
11
�made. Lived in Petoskey, beautiful, ski instructor in the winter, how much better can you
have it? He was all upset about going. 25:00 When we got our orders to go, Steve and
Don both got orders to be engineers and go to Alaska. I was pleased because of Don, you
know, that‘s what he needed, somebody‘s looking out for him was my feeling.
Interviewer: So, once in a while the army does something intelligent.
Yeah, and the bad part is that it doesn‘t necessarily work in your favor. I got in
probably—I was at a car show, of course working at the trim shop after coming back,
probably about five years later, I was at a car show and ran into Steve. Weird, he was at
the car show and we were talking, hadn‘t seen each other, and he said, ―You heard what
happened to Don didn‘t you?‖ I said, ―No‖, and Steve-- it was the first time I ever seen
him or wouldn‘t know Don, or have seen him, because of him being in Petoskey. 26:00
He said, ―Well, he came home on leave to get his car, he‘d just bought a new El Camino
and he was driving it back up to Alaska and was hit by a train and killed‖. I still have
pictures of the three of us outside the barracks. I still have that picture that I always set
out and I always think about that.
Interviewer: What did the training at Fort Dis actually consist of? What were you
doing there?
Well, at Dix I trained more into mortars, so most of our time, again, was physical,
running here to there, learning to shoot the mortar, going to classes to shoot the mortar,
learning to shoot the [M]60 machine gun, your rifle, qualifying with your rifle. 27:00
We didn‘t get to throw grenades, we threw rocks because the group that went through in
front of us, the group that went through in front of us, somebody dropped a grenade in the
pit and the guy was killed. They have a sergeant in there with you and he‘s teaching you
12
�how to throw the grenade because you‘re not supposed to throw it like you‘d normally
throw something, you‘re supposed to do this special movement and everything. One
went off and it killed the trainee and the sergeant was badly wounded. So, at that point
they wouldn‘t let you throw grenades anymore, so we threw rocks out of the pit and see
how close you could get to whatever it was you were throwing the rock at.
Interviewer: Did you get to go to New York City at all?
No, we went into Philly. We missed our flight once and we went into Philly. Not the
good part of Philly. Around an airport you figure it‘s pretty much—but you can‘t believe
the row houses, house on house, on house, and there‘s street, sidewalk, house and nothing
between them and nothing that I‘m used to. 28:06
I‘m figuring I‘m a city boy, but the
houses here in Lansing, they got room between them and you can move, and you‘ve got a
little greenery, you know. There it was—and it was a pretty rough place there, but we
spent most of the time going from bar to bar and being in uniform, we had to be in
uniform to fly standby, military standby, and the bars, as long as we were paying they
would give us beer.
Interviewer: Now, this was 1969, did you ever get hassled by anybody because you
were in uniform?
No, because we weren‘t really out in the open. I mean the people in the bars, it was dark
and they didn‘t—I don‘t think we went to the bars, actually, dressed in uniform. 29:00
I‘m trying to remember, I think we all had a ditty bag and we had shirts and pants in
there. We had to go through the—well, after they got to know you, you didn‘t need to be
in uniform, but we always—it was a race, there were five of us that always went from
Michigan, so we‘d get in a cab outside the base and tell the cabby, ―There‘s an extra
13
�hundred dollars in it if you can get us to the airport on time‖ , because we just minutes
from the time we got out until five o‘clock on Friday when the flight left. We flew
Alleghany Airlines most of the time and we‘d run past the counter and toss our stuff to
the ladies and they‘d have waiting there for us at the counter, because they got to know
us, you know, eight weeks of doing this. We‘d run for the plane and they said, ―Hurry
up‖, because they were getting ready to pull the boarding ramp. We‘d run to the gate and
get on and there were only about three or four stewardesses on the plane and us, so we
just, on the way back to Detroit, drink and talk to the stewardesses. 30:08 There would
be nobody else on the plane.
Interviewer: Now, was AIT sort of your last stage of training before Vietnam?
Right
Interviewer: So, at the end of AIT did you get to go home first?
We got a thirty day leave. Towards the end they run you—they have what they call a
mock Vietnam village, so they run you through that and you kind of do a little war game
and that‘s sort of the highlight of your training at Fort Dix. Yeah, then we went home.
We graduated from that, flew home and had a thirty day leave, and then my orders had
me—I had, on this particular date, go to Fort Lewis in Washington and I was on my way.
Interviewer: Now, at this point are you going in as a replacement, so you don’t
know what unit you’ll go to or anything like that? 31:04
You have no idea, you‘re just a guy in an army uniform and they could be—even when
you process. I went to the airport, got on a plane and flew up to Seattle, Washington,
we spent the night in ta hotel again, there was the five of us, and we ended up going to
the hotel for the night, and then the following morning we had to report, like six o‘clock
14
�in the morning, at the Fort Lewis, and at that point they process your paperwork and
make sure your inoculations are all up to date, and give you—I don‘t think they give you
any fatigues, I think you‘re still in your dress greens when you get there. 32:00
Interviewer: How long did you spend at Fort Lewis? Did they get you out right
away or did you stay around a few days?
We were gone that night. Yeah, we were out at the airport late in the night, one or two
o‘clock in the morning.
Interviewer: Where did it stop, or did it stop?
It did, it stopped and I don‘t know just exactly which ones we stopped at, most of the
time I slept. When I get on a plane I sleep most of the time. I know we stopped at Clark
Air Force Base, and we stopped in Hawaii, I believe. Other than that, the only thing I
remember is coming into Cam Ranh Bay.
Interviewer: Were you on a military aircraft or was it a commercial one?
It was a commercial aircraft and the stewardesses were all about sixty years old, because
going into a combat area it was a high priority, high paid flight, so here you are a
nineteen year old and you‘ve got all these forty and fifty year old stewardesses. 33:05
We were kind of bummed. You have to kind of laugh, because here we are going to a
war zone and thinking, ―I‘m never going to see another woman and I‘ve got to spend
twenty-two hours on a plane with my grandmother‖. That was the feeling.
Interviewer: What kind of a day was it when you got into Vietnam? Did you land
during the day or at night?
We landed during the day, and I‘m not sure, but it was in the morning, I guess, around
ten.
15
�Interviewer: What was your first impression of Vietnam when you got there?
Oh, it stunk. It was hot, and it stunk. The humidity, I mean they opened the door to this
plane and it just hits you right in the face and would like to blow you right over. The heat
is unbelievable, the humidity--and again, nothing but sand. Cam Ranh Bay, all you see is
these huge sand dunes and everyplace you look is just all sand, nothing green. 34:08
You step out of that plane and the smell hits you and that place just stunk. I mean, it was
the nastiest smell; it was like walking through a garbage dump, that‘s what is smelt like.
Interviewer: Now, what time of the year was it? Was it about June or July?
This is in July, July 12th.
Interviewer: You get in and what did they do with you once you get off the plane?
Basically they ran you through a place to get—kind of like a big—they call it a pole
building now days, a big steel roofed building, and they give you clothes. You know,
you got jungle fatigues and you‘ve got to get out of your dress greens, which was half the
reason why you were sweating. 35:01 They gave you a duffle bag, clothes, underwear,
socks and stuff. You could work through the line and get that and they had you go
someplace, wherever you wanted to go, to barracks. Well, they didn‘t really have
barracks, but they had like a big latrine washroom, kind of, where you could go and
change and put your other stuff back in the duffle bag and it was just gone at that point.
Interviewer: How long did you spend there?
We were by that evening, I would say four or five o‘clock in the afternoon, we were on a
bus out of there headed for—we went to Bien Hoa. You got on this bus and the first
thing—all of a sudden you‘re dressed as a soldier now, and you‘re not looking spiffy, and
you‘re thinking, ―They gave us all this stuff, but they didn‘t give us any weapons.
16
�What‘s going on?‖ 36:11 I heard how bad this is, we‘re in a war and they put you on
this bus and it‘s got steel mesh, chicken wire, over the windows. You‘re wondering, and
everybody starts talking, and all the rumors you hear, ―Well, that‘s so somebody doesn‘t
run up and throw a grenade or something in the window‖, or whatever, and okay, were
taking this bus and we ended up going to Bien Hoa and that was starting—it was
outside—it was a big base camp and there were villages all around it outside of town.
They had like these wooden hooches that were raised up off the ground a little ways and
there‘d be about three laps of board and the rest of it was screen with a metal roof. They
had these big old army tents, the JP Mediums and whatever is the largest they can get.
37:05 If they have the same sizes everywhere, I don‘t know, but it was like having to be
in your underwear there, because inside the temperature is hot and those tents don‘t
breathe. And again, we spent the night in there, no weapons, and this whole planeload of
guys inside these tents and all this stuff going on around you and things. That night the
ammo dump got hit, they mortared the ammo dump and that went up. You have nothing;
you‘re running around, everybody‘s---Interviewer: What did you guys do?
You just sit there and shiver and wonder what‘s going to happen. I mean, you pucker up
real good on that, everything gets real tight.
Interviewer: Nobody sends you to a bunker or anything like that?
There‘s no bunker, you‘re in a compound and the bunkers are way out beyond where you
can see where you‘re at. 38:02 We were in those tents all night long, bugs, mosquitoes,
the heat, it was just nasty. Everybody was hot and sweaty and you couldn‘t hardly get a
breath it was so heavy, the air was so heavy. The next morning came and they started
17
�lining us up, and you know, and say where you‘re going to go and who you‘re going--they‘re checking your paperwork again and filling out all your paperwork. You‘re going
to be assigned to—Greg ended up being assigned to the 1st Cav, he was the one that I
buddied up with and we were both from Lansing and our wives new each other. Our
family—we knew from thirty days of leave time we spent a lot of time picnicking and
cookouts at his house and his parents‘ house, and my parents‘ house, so we got to know
each other and we got split up at that point. 39:03 He went with the 1st Cav and I ended
up with the 101st. Then it was a matter of, you have your group, ―you guys are going to
the 101st, wait here and the truck will come and get you‖. They put you on a plane, they
put you on a cargo plane, and we ended up going up to Camp Evans, which was up by
Phu Bai, and that was out major basecamp for us. We got there and everybody—people
were there, there was a clerk, five or six of them, calling out names, ―You go with this
company, you go to this side‖, so I ended up by myself, going with Echo Company, the
2nd of 506 [2nd Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment, 101Airborne Division]. That‘s how
I got to that company. Then I got in there and they—into the company area, and then I
started getting all my equipment. 40:02 They started loading me down with all my
equipment, rucksack, finally got a weapon and, ―What do you want to carry? My stupid
behind, I picked a M79 grenade launcher and thought that would be really neat. I was
trained in mortars and I was one of the best that went through the class, and I‘m thinking,
―Bump gun, mortar, things blooping out of a tube, I got it made‖.
Interviewer: Did you get assigned to a mortar unit?
Oh yeah, Echo Company was mortars and recon and crew served equipment, light crew
served thing, meaning it took more than one person, like with a machine gun you had
18
�your gunner and your ammo bearer, so it was that kind of a thing. When I got to Camp
Evans , I got assigned to Echo Company and they loaded me up with all my gear and
stuff and said, ―go out to the chopper pad, they‘re going to take some mail out to the
firebase, a firebase called Berchtesgaden in the A Shau Valley. 41:05 It was the worst
place you want to be. On a firebase in the A Shau, the only thing worse than that is
walking through the A Shau Valley, no different. Got you out to the helicopter pad, you
wait for the helicopter, and go out with the mail. I‘m setting out there and some guy, one
of the guys that were out there had come in for medical reasons, or something, or came in
to get something, I don‘t remember, but we sat and talked. He‘s telling me, ―Oh, you‘ll
love it out there. I‘m going to introduce you to Suzy when we get out there‖, and I‘m
thinking, ―Suzy, a female?‖ On the firebase he‘s always telling me about Suzy, he‘s
always telling me about Suzy, and finally--we sat there like three days until dark and then
we‘d go back to the hooch and spend the night. 42:02 Then we‘d come back out and sit
on the chopper pad. Now, this is steel planking you‘re sitting on and it‘s called PSP,
perforated steel planking, it‘s got holes in it, so when the helicopters land on it they don‘t
blow stuff around, dirt and that. When you‘re sitting on that it‘s a hundred and seven
degrees and there‘s no shade.
Interviewer: So, you’re just sitting there waiting for a helicopter?
Just waiting for a helicopter and sweating. Getting used to the atmosphere and sweating,
and getting a little more used to the atmosphere and sweating and trying to find
something to drink.
Interviewer: Didn’t you get sunburned sitting out there?
19
�Oh yeah, you get sunburned and you get dark and you just stay dark after that. Finally
we got a helicopter to go out and that‘s the first time I‘d ever flown in a helicopter. I‘m
thinking, ―Hop in the helicopter, close the doors, no big deal‖. That‘s not going to
happen either. The stuff goes in and then you go in and then you‘re sitting on the edge of
the helicopter with your feet hanging out. 43:01
Interviewer: so this is a Huey or a smaller helicopter, not a Chinook?
It‘s a Huey, not a Chinook, and most of the time we flew in Hueys, but you‘re sitting
there and just hanging out, and you got your rucksack on you. When you tip you‘d think
you‘d fall out and it‘s a weird feeling, but you‘re hanging on and your knuckles are
turning white. You‘re hanging on and the door gunner is just getting a kick out of it
because we got a newbie, we got a cherry here, everybody was called cherries when they
first came in country. Scared shitless, I mean, just unbelievable, and you‘re flying along
at treetop level and you got nothing out there but the tops of trees and the jungle. Flying
along and up all these mountains, and Berchtesgaden was up there and I think it was like
870 meters high, and that‘s pretty tall. 44:02 You get out on the chopper pad and you sit
out there and you‘re in the middle of two mountain tops with a saddle in between it and
artillery was on this side and mortars was this side with bunkers around it and concertina
wire, and that‘s where all the grunts pulled guard, that‘s where you pulled guard and
stuff. You get out there and finally get to meet Suzy, which his name was actually
Roland and everybody just called him Suzy, and that was the big joke of the—everybody
had the big laugh on the new guy, ―Oh yeah, he thought we were ―, okay. So, they put
me in hooch and I buddied up—they put me in my squad, which George Bourdwyn [?]
was the squad leader, and he was the gunner. There were only like four of us on the gun.
20
�45:00 There were three mortars on the mountain top, on our side of the mountain top.
Two H-E with high explosives in it and we had, down in the saddle where the helicopter
land, we had a mortar pit down there, but that just fired lamination, so when something
happened you‘d fire lamination to light it up and see what was going on. The H-E pits
didn‘t have that and they didn‘t have H-E down at the lamination pit, but I worked with
George up in the mortars and H-E pit. It was right on the side of the mountain, I mean,
you look over the side, concertina wire, and just nothing but air, right straight down the
mountain. George and I got along really great, you know and he was the best there was
at the time. Then we had Bennett who came in with me, he was already out there, we
went through AIT and basic together. 46:04 Bennett was from North Carolina and he
worked in a furniture factory. He was my ammo bearer, I ended up being the gunner, and
George ended up being the squad leader.
Interviewer: At what point did you become the gunner? Was that right away?
It was that day, right that day. This whole thing—at that point, right then, it was in top
pitch with George, he was the best, and I‘ll get to George in a minute, but I had a lot to
live up to. I mean, he was the best, and of course, I just came from the states and I was
the best, so I was the gunner that day. Bennett, he would fire, he‘d cut the charges off the
rounds and drop them down tube, I‘d set the gun up and we fired right from that moment.
I‘ve got a picture of George and I standing together because we both carried our thump
guns. 47:02 The picture was taken on George‘s birthday and he had just turned
seventeen and he‘d been there six months.
Interviewer: How did that work?
21
�His parents signed him up, and he‘d turned seventeen in the picture, and I‘d just gotten in
country and he‘d been there six months, but George was good. He taught me everything
I could possibly know about Vietnam. If you didn‘t buddy up with somebody when you
were there your chance of making it was, maybe, two weeks.
Interviewer: Not everybody got a very good reception when they joined a unit, and
had a lot to do with what unit you were with and what the guys were like. In this
case you had people right away telling you what to do and giving you some
responsibility and so forth. Were you firing the mortars from the very first day?
From the very first day, yeah, and what we had out there, we had a thing called a mad
minute. 48:03 At this particular time every night you‘d fire everything, so that‘s where
I got my experience. You‘d just fire a mortar just to fire it, it didn‘t make any difference,
chopper in some more when you got done the next day and you‘d fire it. Our pit was
built right along the edge of the mountain and like I say, it was right straight down to the
valley from there. We‘d fire them up at zero charge and try to catch them as they went
by outside the pit, which the stupidity of a nineteen year old the first thing is if you hit the
end it‘s probably going to explode, and if you do catch it, it‘s probably going to rip your
arm off because there‘s fins, tail fins and those things are going to mess you up. I was
just the idea, you know, that maybe we could do this. We‘d have a mad minute, and it
would be dark, usually around nine or ten o‘clock at night. 49:02 Everybody on the
bunker line would start and open up, throwing grenades, firing their 60‘s and their 16‘s
and thump guns, I‘d fire my thump gun and fire the mortars.
Interviewer: Did they tell you what the logic was in doing that?
22
�No, we just figured it was so we could get practice firing things and maybe whatever was
there we might scare away. This went for—I was there less than a month and we did
that, and I had the bright idea, ―Okay, we‘ve been doing this every night‖, and this came
down from the big guys, and artillery‘s firing too, ―If we do this every night at the same
time. Let‘s screw them up and do another one‖, so they decided ten minutes after we do
the first one, we‘ll do another one, just to screw things up. Sure enough—we always sat
up a bunker line every night and watched Kirby down in the valley, they‘d get overrun
every night, and they‘d get hit every night. 50:04
You‘d watch the green tracers, and
the mortars, and the red tracers going in and out, and all the flashes from the grenades
and artillery and everything. We‘d sit on the bunker line and watch that every night
down the hill. They were down in the valley and we‘d sit and watch them every night
and this night it didn‘t happen and we were all bummed and we were back in playing
cards. Mad minute time, time for our mad minute came up, we had our mad minute and
we all went back in the hooch and we were going to play cards again. We‘d get five or
ten minutes and we‘ve got to get back out and everybody‘s getting everything, and
getting back out there, and we started having our next mad minute. Well, the gooks were
coming after us that night and when we had our mad minute, they thought we‘d spotted
them, that they‘d been seen, but they hadn‘t. They were coming up through the garbage
dump and all around the mountain and coming up after us. 51:02
Interviewer: So, how did you know they were there?
When they started shooting and when things started coming back. You know, ―Wait a
minute; this isn‘t all something going out‖. I could actually sit and hear the mortar
rounds come. They were walking like a zee down the mountain and they got our number
23
�one gun at the top, the A-T gun at the top, and they were trying—mine was kind of over,
but they missed it and were coming down, and I don‘t know if they ran out or decided to
change, but they just—that‘s as far as they got. So, they‘re coming after us, coming up
the hill, and a matter of fact, they‘re in the light, they‘re so close you could see the
muzzle flashes. Now that our number one A-T gun is out, it‘s been hit with the mortars,
Bennett and I now went down to work the illumination, and Bennett‘s popping
illumination and I‘m running up to the A-T pit and getting some mortars and bringing
them down to that gun so I could help fire that gun besides firing illumination. 52:08
So, I‘m running up and down the side of the mountain and we got ammo crates put in like
steps, and the pit wall is about yea high and it‘s sandbagged. I‘m running up and
grabbing three rounds and running down and putting them down there and George is
firing that gun and I‘m running back up and getting three—Bennett‘s firing the
illumination while I‘m bringing the rounds down too. Things get tight, you know, we
could get from the other pit and do that, and I‘m running back and forth, I come running
down with three and throw them down and go to run back up and somebody grabs my leg
and I trip and fall on these boxes we‘ve got for steps. I mean, I‘m hurt and I‘m pissed,
what the hell, you know; somebody grabbed my leg and tripped me and put me down.
By the time I got done rolling around Bennett‘s looking around the corner and he said,
―You can‘t do that, they‘re shooting at you every time you run up that hill. 53:05 Sure
enough, there‘s the dump and it‘s right where I‘m running, the opening for our
illumination gun. So, by him tripping me he probably saved my life.
Interviewer: How did you know what to shoot at with the mortar at that point?
24
�You have what you call D-T‘s, delta tangos, and they‘re designated targets. So when
you‘re not doing something, which is not very often, but on a firebase, you‘re shooting
these delta tangos and you got them all numbered. Somebody will say, you know—you
don‘t have to have it, you got it on your board, you know where this one—they‘ll say, ―I
need a double tango right‖—whatever, and you know where that is and you got it right
there. I need it a yard from there or two yards, whatever, so you just fire it, because
everybody out there‘s coming at you and there‘s nobody out there you‘re going to kill
that will make any difference to you that could get you into trouble. 54:11 You set them
up and fire, you don‘t necessarily wait. What you do wait for is if you get a call and they
say that they‘ve seen a mortar, or somebody—an area where there‘s a group of guys,
Vietnamese coming after you, or coming up there, or if they see a mortar tube that‘s
firing at you, then your job is to take the tube out, to take that stuff out, so in all of this
you‘re doing all these things. You‘re shooting illuminations that light up the firebase, so
the grunts can see, the guys in the bunkers can see if somebody‘s coming up, and then
you‘re firing the other ones to keep whoever‘s coming up away from the edge of you, but
you know how far out you can fire, I mean you don‘t have any friendly‘s out there, so as
long as you clear the bunker line, you got to be so many yards out past the bunker line,
―danger close‖ is what they call it for the other ones and you can‘t fire within that area.
55:10
Interviewer: How long did the fire fight last do you think?
It started around dark, probably about—we wrapped our first things—probably around
ten o‘clock, I think it started, maybe and lasted until about daybreak.
Interviewer: It was a pretty serious ongoing thing?
25
�They were sending a good sized group came up and we ended up with thirty seven bodies
inside the wire. They were going after artillery, so that was the other mountain top, so
they were coming up from that [side] trying to get over to artillery, although they were
shooting everybody. They had thirty seven guys in the wire, bodies inside the firebase.
They were going after the artillery TOC, which is the control. 56:00 They did wound
the artillery commander, but most of them, a good share of them were found around our
artillery, but there were thirty seven. Then in the morning you‘re out policing everything
and cleaning everything up. We took all the bodies and laid out cargo net and piled all
the bodies up on the cargo net and I mean it was probably six or seven feet tall with all
these body‘s we had piled up there and it was like mannequins, wax mannequins, you
don‘t think of them as being anything more than that.
Interviewer: You had never seen a dead body before had you?
No, no, other than in a suit and tie in a coffin. That‘s quite a—this was—I had only been
in country maybe a month. You go through a week of P training when you first get there
and that‘s when they get used to you sending you to your unit when you‘re at Bien Hoa
and then setting on the chopper pad for three days and then getting out there. 57:02
Yeah, about a month and we were overrun. I was in a place and, of course, now I‘m not a
cherry because you‘ve been in a firefight and that.
Interviewer: Was that the only major fight you had while you were at
Berchtesgaden?
Yeah, right after that they pulled everybody. The monsoons were coming, so they pulled
everybody. They were taking everybody off of the valley, out of that area of the country
because they couldn‘t get helicopters in. it would cloud up so bad that you couldn‘t see .
26
�I mean, you could stick your arm out into a cloud and it was like your arm was gone.
You couldn‘t see from your elbow down that was a cloud. That‘s how thick it got, and
between that and the rain you couldn‘t resupply you. It was really hard to hump in the
jungle in the rain and everything was just so slimy, dead and slimy and rotted and
everything was just crummy. 58:06 Back to the guys—we put all the guys, the bodies
we had we put them in a cargo net and put our death cards on them, and hooked the cargo
net up to a Chinook, a Chinook came in and we hooked the cargo net up to the Chinook
and had them fly them out over the valley and let go. It rained bodies for quite some
time.
Interviewer: You said death cards, what?
You had a—at that time, before they banned them, it was a card saying who you were
and a lot of them were—they were like playing cards. Our playing cards had—they were
all the same card, the ace of spades. Wow, being the 2nd of the 506 our unit designation
is a spade, like the 502‘s is a heart. During WWII this happened, they had it painted on
the backs of their helmets so they could designate the unit that you were from. 59:04
Ours was spades, so we had the ace of spades.
Interviewer: Sending a message to the enemy, in effect, by attaching the cards to
them and then just depositing them.
Literally, through the whole jungle because I‘m sure they covered a fifteen or twenty
mile area by the cleaning. Yeah, we put them in their mouths. Once we‘d done that and
collected a few odd items they were taken away and then the next day is when I got my
really best sunburn, my whole body, I mean, I was sunburned because they brought in all
this ammo and it is helicopter after helicopter bringing in ammo and a new gun. We had
27
�to rebuild the pit and you‘re talking humping up these stairs we built from these ammo
boxes up the side of the mountain. 00 :04 Your carrying a carton, a box—mortars come
in a box that weighs fifty six pounds and there‘s three mortars in there and you‘re
carrying one on each shoulder and when you got good, you got one crossways, so you
had three mortar boxes on each shoulder once you got your strength. I could do two, so
the thing goes on, the physical part of it. You‘re running these all day long, opening
them up and putting them in—all out tubes—all our guns were –one wall was nothing but
mortar tubes, empty tubes, and you put new mortars in them, so that way they were all
open and they were covered with a sheet of plastic, but then you‘d pull them out to fire
them.
Interviewer: Now, did you run through that ammunition before they abandoned
the firebase? If you leave the firebase did they blow it up behind you? 1:05
Yeah, we left the firebase and it was just—it was probably three weeks to a month after
we were overrun that we left and they took us back to Camp Evans
Interviewer: About how long, overall, do you think you were there? Six weeks?
I don‘t even think six weeks. No, I would say four or five; maybe it was close to six, I
don‘t know how long we were there.
Interviewer: After that big attack, did the enemy try again?
I don‘t recall anything going on after that.
Interviewer: Would they just periodically lob mortar rounds at the base, or snipe at
it? 2:05
Generally they‘d send in—they‘d hit you with mortar rounds and then they‘d send in
sappers. What they would do-- these guys would run up to the concertina wire and one of
28
�them would just lay himself on top of it and the rest of them would run up in back to get
through the wire. That stuff about them crawling through the wire, that‘s, maybe, when
they were first starting to do it and they were trying to be a little bit sneaky, but when it
came to a sapper attack, they‘d just run up and one guy would throw himself on the wire
and if he had a satchel charge , or something, they‘d blow it, but generally speaking they
all just carried satchel charges and they‘d run from hooch to hooch or where they
thought the TOC was at, you know, to get bigger name people rather than just the lowly
grunt on the bunker line. 3:01
Interviewer: Okay, so they didn’t necessarily attack you on the perimeter, they
would go in and look for the main TOC?
Yeah, they‘d kind of get you going on one side or the other and then kind of sneak in.
It‘s a lot like when you get into an ambush. I—after we did Berchtesgaden, they closed
that out, and then they probably just bombed most of it into oblivion. Then we went to
Eagle Beach and spent a week at Eagle Beach and that was just—it was during a
typhoon. They have these big towers you‘re standing in and they‘re like these huge
telephone poles, there‘s four of them and then there‘s a deck with a little thatched roof on
it and I don‘t know if you‘re watching for submarines or what, but you had to pull guard
and I happened to get it the night the typhoon came through. So, we just tied ourselves to
the big poles and went through the typhoon that way, and I mean, everything was
blowing over. 4:03 At Eagle Beach there were Seabees and there were large petroleum
containers and that‘s where they kept a lot of the fuel and that was down by Hue, that‘s
south.
Interviewer: So that was basically in country R&R or was supposed to be?
29
�Kind of like in country, yeah, but that was actually—they‘d have these Vietnamese and
Korean groups come in and sing all these American songs and free beer, all the beer you
could drink. It was good food because there was a Seabee base there, so you could go
through their mess hall. We broke into it a couple times to get stuff from there. Then we
ended up going back up north and going to different firebases. We worked out from a
firebase Jack and that was kind of in the lowlands with mountains on one side and
flatlands on the other side. 5:09 Waiting for the monsoons you‘d kind of--then we came
and kind of circled our area of operations and headed up and took over for the marines up
at the DMZ. So, we worked the Rockpile and Camp Carroll. The marines were pulling
out at that time, and the 3rd Marine Battalion [Division?] was leaving and we were taking
over for them, so we ended up being up there at the Rockpile, which supposedly the
marines had been overrun four or five times, or six times, or something. We couldn‘t
even stay on it, let alone have somebody running it. It was just straight up and down with
this red clay and if you got out of your foxhole, or your bunker, you had to tie a rope
around your waist. 6:04 We‘d have guys that slipped right down the side of the
mountain, through the concertina wire and everything, it was just so slippery and you
couldn‘t get a footing, so how—there was only one way up there and that was on a
ridgeline, there was only one way up it and I don‘t know how they built a huge chopper
pad on top of it. Well, they had to build this—it looked like a deck, a huge deck from
now days and enough to land a helicopter on because it was so pointed you couldn‘t land
a helicopter on the top of this mountain because it was just so steep. So, they built this
huge chopper pad on top of the mountain, so they could just land and drop supplies off.
Interviewer: How long were you staying at these places?
30
�It would all depend, we‘d go in there and work the area and see how much activity was
going on, what we‘d run into. Like at the DMZ you‘d kind of see how many—if there
was a big force building up there, then you‘d go and work on that, then they‘d rotate you
out and bring in another unit. 7:06 The way we worked our unit is we went in first and
set things up as far as securing the area, so just recon the area to find out what was going
on, and find out if—well work was—well, that was your job. Your job was to walk
around the mountains and walk around the jungle and find out who was out there. Find
people and kill them, basically that was work. That was what the government was paying
us for.
Interviewer: As a mortar crewman, would you normally stay on the firebase when
the men would go out, or would you go out with them?
Well, normally we‘d go from firebase to firebase, we‘d be one of the first ones out to set
up the firebase, as far as for security. 8:01 I mean, they‘d bring other people out there
digging bunkers, but you‘d go out there and dig a hole to put your gun upon, or your
tube, and you‘d just be out there with the line company and they‘d start bringing people
in and you‘d move off, and we used to hump our mortars with—we helped a lot with
Chuck Hawkins from Alpha Company, and Chuck liked us and he called us his mobile
artillery, so we did a lot with humping mortars with him. But, we‘d go out and hump and
you may be out for thirty days or four, five, six weeks, and then they‘d bring you back
into a firebase and that was kind of our little R&R, and they‘d send another tube out to be
with them, so we kind of—we‘d get—it was kind of our refresher kind of thing. Get a
break and get our act together, clean clothes and a shower, maybe, and just some normal
food sometimes. 9:06
31
�Interviewer: Now, would this just be your squad that would be attached to a unit,
or would the whole platoon go?
No, it would just be my squad.
Interviewer: So, you bring one mortar tube with you and the four guys, and you’re
just attached, so you’re the portable artillery for the companies that are out there
patrolling, you are out there with them.
So, then you had all these people you‘re out fighting against, the Vietnamese, that didn‘t
like you, but you‘re with all these U.S. Army guys that didn‘t like you, because every
grunt, all the line guys, had to carry two mortar rounds. We had to carry the same thing,
but everybody had to carry two hundred and fifty rounds of machine gun ammunition.
That came down to us too, we had to carry a rifle, and I started out with a thump gun and
then I went to a sixteen, I went to an XM-203 over and under. We had to do the same
thing; we had to carry a full load of ammunition, a twenty one magazine if you had an M16. 10:06 Twenty one magazine, a dozen grenades, two blocks of C-4, two claymores,
a law, if you were humping the mortar you had to—I was the gunner, so I humped the
sight, and Bennett humped the base plate and Dave McCain humped the tube. I mean
you're talking—the base weighed sixty pounds, you put that in your rucksack and your
rucksack‘s already eighty five to a hundred pounds, so you‘re carrying a lot of weight. It
doesn‘t—you get on a helicopter—you get on a helicopter with that stuff and you get off
with that stuff, it doesn‘t come later, it‘s not individually wrapped. If you don‘t have it,
you don‘t have it, and if you‘re missing one of the parts of your gun, you might as well
have left everything behind, because you don‘t have everything. So, we went out with
Alpha Company, with Chuck Hawkins, and we humped that and everybody would hump
32
�two mortar rounds and they didn‘t like it, so they didn‘t like us. We really didn‘t get to
know them. 11:07 We didn‘t know the line guys that we were with, we were out with
them for months at a time, but, basically, it was more along—the only way you really got
to know them was trading food and cigarettes, you know, that kind of thing.
Interviewer: When you’re out there in the field with the line company, about how
many soldiers would these companies usually have?
A normal company would have a hundred and twenty I‘d say. We were never normal,
you might be out there with forty five, not very many guys.
Interviewer: You were also involved in the Ripcord operation and some of the
companies that were fighting around that firebase were down to thirty and even
fifteen at certain points, not really big groups.
We got down to where it was just three of us at the mortar. George left and then it
became—Bennett left, they took him out of my squad and took him down to the 1st Cav.
12:05 They needed guys down there and we needed them too. I lost Bennett, and I
had—it was my self and McCain.
Interviewer: Did they give you a replacement at that point? Did you get a new guy?
No we didn‘t, we dealt with who we had, so you became everybody. ―Pops ―was a—
―Pops‖, I was going to tell you about the older guy, he was our FDC, fire direction
control, and he was a college graduate, so when he came, we were all nineteen and he
was twenty five, so that‘s how he got the name ―Pops‖. To this day when he calls, ―Hey
this is Pops‖, whenever we get together everybody calls him ―Pops‖, it‘s him that‘s the
whole thing. But, most of the guys that we were with; ―Pops‖ didn‘t hunt for the best
spots at the fire range. 13:00 I was trying to remember, he was at the last reunion and
33
�we had dinner with him, Kilgore, James. I didn‘t know his first name until we had a
reunion. Kilgore, everybody called him Kilgore and everybody had a nick name, nobody
was called—I was always called ―Whip‖, and even today. Everybody had—
―Tennessee‖, I think his name was ―Tennessee", and McCain, we just called him McCain
you really didn‘t get to---you were close, but yet you were distant. You didn‘t want to
know anybody that well because they were just going to die and you didn‘t need that
extra burden, and for me, my burden being the squad leader and those my guys. 14:04
It takes a real load, I mean you don‘t want to be a squad leader because then you‘d have
to—I had to not only take care of myself, but I had to take care of them and make sure
they had what they needed and I didn‘t want them to get hurt, it‘s a real hard thing.
Interviewer: Did you spend a full twelve month tour in Vietnam?
I spent twelve months in Vietnam, I had an R&R, a week's worth of R&R, which actually
ended up taking up ten days. My ―P‖ training, which was a week coming in country, the
three days I sat on the firebase, and the seven days I spent—at the middle of my tour they
brought us back for what they call a refresher training to tell us what was going on in the
area and who we were up against and what they were doing, the kind of booby traps they
were using, and weapons. A total of all but thirty one days I was out in the jungle. 15:00
Interviewer: Now, after that initial assignment down by the A Shau, were you
pretty much in that northern part of Vietnam the rest of the time?
We just—we took over for the marines up there , cleared that area, got things back in
kind of operating order and then they brought in ARVNs, and they brought in people
from other parts of the 101st or different units to take over up there and then we‘d go to
someplace else. We rotated back down—the problem with the monsoons, the monsoons
34
�kind of go around the country, and now were kind of at the top of the country, in the
north and the monsoons are coming back down, so we‘re coming back into the valley, so
now we‘re working—coming in like Camp Carroll and then Khe Sanh, and we started in
at—actually we started in at the bottom of the country and they wanted to build a road up
through the A Shau, so we started out at Birmingham and went to Bastogne. 16:05 All
the 101st firebases were named after WWII battles. The firebase, when you first came to
it at the bottom of the valley was Birmingham and then you went Bastogne, and we went
up the valley. We went up with the line company and they were going to try—we were
going to clear the area and they were going to come in with engineers and build a road
after we checked out the area and made sure that we got whoever was in there out and
find out who they had to fight against, the of battle they will have.
Interviewer: That’s still pretty far north in South Vietnam, so you’re not by Saigon
or the Cambodian border, you’re pretty much up north?
No, you divide the country into five different courts and we were in I court and actually,
we were in northern I Corps, so if I Corps is this big we were just in this part of it, and
that was just---from way north. 17:04
Interviewer: Now, over the course of this year that you’re with the unit, how would
you characterize the morale of the men in the ranks at this point?
We were good, we were so good that—we loved what we were doing. The morale—we
were never in the rear where we had problems. The cooks and the guys in the rear were
the ones there were problems with, the guys in the field; it was a family, and again, you
didn‘t want to be close, but you couldn‘t help it, you‘re a family. I don‘t care if you
didn‘t know the guys first name, if something were to happen to him—you‘d be torn up if
35
�something were to happen to him. You were close, you were a family and we were good,
the whole unit. We went through and we did what we were supposed to be doing. 18:04
Interviewer: Over the course of the year some men will become casualties, others
will simply rotate out, so you’re getting the people coming in and you go from being
a cherry to being one of the old guys and so forth. Did the unit’s performance stay
pretty much at the same level the whole time?
Yeah, and because we were good, not because of the quality of the guy coming in, it was
because we were good and we could teach him, ―This is how you do it, and this is how to
be good‖. How you‘re good is your morale is up, you know what you‘re doing, and
you‘re family, I mean a new guy comes in and he gets a ton of ribbing, everybody‘s on
him about being a cherry and all this other stuff, and he always gets—the big thing we
did with them when we were out with the line companies, or even on the firebase, when
you get a new guy in you tell him all these stories. 19:03 This one guy came in and they
came in and cut off his—and did this, and all these nasty things, you know, and you got
sleep because this guy was up all night, you didn‘t have to worry about pulling guard.
This guy was so scared he wasn‘t going to sleep for a week, and that‘s what you did with
a new guy and you actually cheated him out of his sleep, so you could have sleep.
Normally you‘d get—you‘d be on guard for an hour and then you‘d be off for two and
then you‘d be back on, and that was kind of a rotation. Usually there were three guys in a
foxhole, or when you‘re out, and eight on the bunker line, generally three guys, so that
way you got an hour on and two hours off. That was the total amount of sleep you get
because when you‘re in daylight you‘re moving you‘re not able to and when it‘s
nighttime you‘re not able to sleep any more than that. 20:01 So, when you get a new
36
�guy you use him and just give him everything to carry. ―Oh, you‘re going to need this
and this‖, so you‘d load him down with everything you could find.
Interviewer: You were giving him attention. Sometimes new guys would come in
and get ignored.
No, I don‘t think any of them got ignored, not in our set up, we were different, we were,
like I said, we were really different.
Interviewer: How much of a sense did you have of what was going on in the larger
war or conflict during the time you were there? Did you have any sense of how
what you were doing fit into a larger plan?
We‘d get newspapers. I‘d usually get a newspaper in the mail and you‘d get an idea of
what was going on in the world and what they were talking about, but it never matched
what was going on. I always had to write letters home to let them know that this isn‘t
really what‘s going on here. 21:00 It might be other places, but where we‘re at—but
you never could tell them what was going on either because you didn‘t want to scare the
heck out of everybody and in most of my letters I sent home I said, ―Oh, it‘s raining here,
the weather's terrible, we don‘t get any sleep, things are nasty, the bugs‖, that‘s all you
really dared to say. You couldn‘t tell about what was really going on.
Interviewer: Now, did they send you stuff from home?
Yes
Interviewer: What kinds of things did they send you?
Cookies and crumbled cakes and, oh, the church would send you cookies. By the time
you got them it was just one big jumble of—but when somebody got a care package from
home everybody was there to eat it, and like I said, that was family. You didn‘t—―You
37
�can‘t have any because you‘re not part of our group‖. No, when that was opened up it
was gone in a heartbeat. 22:00 It didn‘t make any difference what it was, it could be—
we‘d get Kool Aid because the water came in water blivets and it tasted like rubber, so
you had to have something to pour in it, so you‘d get Kool Aid, gum, candy, just about
anything. If it was food or anything like that, it would be destroyed before—nothing that
couldn‘t put up with the weather would make it, because your mail wasn‘t necessarily, it
wasn‘t a quick thing and you might get mail once a week rather than once a day. I don‘t
think we ever go mail once a day. On the firebase you might get mail once a day because
the choppers come in and out. They throw out a mail bag and clean clothes. One of our
pictures inside one of our hooches you can see we got fresh onion and catsup and
Tabasco and that was some that McCain had gotten. 23:02
Interviewer: Did you normally just eat C rations and K rations?
Just C rations, that‘s all we ever had. We‘d get—if we had a body count we‘d get clean
clothes and ice cream and that was—you‘ll see on one of my helmets, and on the other
guys helmets, everybody had their own little slogan, or saying and mine said, ―We kill for
ice cream‖, which was true, because if we had a body count they‘d send out helicopters
and they‘d generally send out ice cream and clean clothes. Ice cream would come into—
ice cream would come in marmite [cans] and by the time you got it, it was pretty much
melted away. The clean clothes would come in a big bag and they‘d kick the bag out of
the helicopter in the middle of the landing pad and everybody would run out there and
grab it and dump all the clothes, so what you got was what you could grab quick, so if
you were the last guy there, your clothes didn‘t necessarily fit you. 24:02
38
You may be
�a big guy and have on some smalls until you can find somebody to trade with you wore
what you had.
Interviewer: Would the clothes deteriorate in that kind of climate?
They would rot like there‘s no tomorrow. You didn‘t wear underwear, you‘d get socks. I
never took my boots off ever. At night you always had your boots on and your clothes
on, even going in the stream, you might take your shirt off to shower in the stream.
Interviewer: What happens to your feet if you never take your boots off?
Well, you‘d take them off as far as to clean your feet and to wash your feet in the powder
room, but then you‘d put your boots right back on. The biggest thing you‘d want is
socks. Socks were the biggest thing to have, but the clothes, in a matter of weeks your
shirt and pants would be shredded. If you got into any kind of ―wait a minute vines‖, or
anything like that—like these humongous rose bushes, no flowers, just thorns, and if
you‘d get in those it might take two or three guys to get you out. 25:06
If you happen
to walk into one of those and you get trapped it would take two or three guys to chop you
out of there with machetes, and you don‘t dare move because you‘d get torn up and
anytime you got a cut it got infected. That was one thing, and that‘s why you always had
your shirt sleeves down and always covered up, just to keep from getting infected. You‘d
get into leaches—you walk through the jungle and you‘d think it was raining, you‘d hear
this pitter patter on the leaves and the floor of the jungle, and kind of darker than normal,
you think it‘s raining and it‘s leaches falling from the trees.
Interviewer: How do you get rid of the leaches?
You have a real good friend, because you get leaches in places you don‘t want leaches
and you can‘t reach the leaches sometimes. You got some friends and generally you can
39
�put a cigarette on them and make them let go, or you pour our insect repellent on them.
26:06 Our insect repellent was seventy five percent Deet, well now you buy insect
repellent and it doesn‘t have more than seven percent Deet. You pour those on the
leaches and it would make them get off, but it would go right into the sore that you have,
so that would get infected, so that‘s why some guy‘s skin just rots away. They tell you
this is going to happen. Because you don‘t have chlorine in the water your teeth are
going to go bad and they tell you that, the government tells you this, and if you use the
stuff--but you got to use the stuff to keep the bugs off, the leeches off of you, and you‘d
see a lot of guys with stings, laces tied around their knees and that and their boot bloused.
Of the leeches got past your boots and got up into your secondary defense, which was the
string around your knees. 27:06 So, that‘s why you see a lot of those—they weren‘t
holding anything on, it‘s protection to keep the leeches out.
Interviewer: Is that the kind of thing the other guys teach you pretty quickly when
you get there?
Yeah, oh yeah, leeches, and checking you helmet and you take your boots off to check
those for, not tarantulas, but scorpions, we had some guys bit by scorpions. You set your
helmet down and you sit on it, normally, and if you don‘t they crawl in there and you put
it on and they sting you. They weren‘t the kind that would kill you, but it would affect
your nervous system, and you‘d go into convulsions. We had quite a few guys that they
had to ship back and call in a medevac to get them out of there and get them back to the
hospital--we didn‘t have the care for them.
Interviewer: So there was a lot more out there that was dangerous. Not just the
Vietnamese themselves? 28:00
40
�Oh yeah, everything
Interviewer: Now, did you ever have South Vietnamese service men working with
you either as interpreters, or anything else, that you can recall?
At some of the firebases we did, some companies did, but we didn‘t. At one point we
had one chieu hoi when we were out on Ripcord. There were Vietnamese out there.
They tried to bring in ARVN‘S, but they never went out with us, we never—I never dealt
with an ARVN my whole life over—my whole time there.
Interviewer: What phase, or part, of the Ripcord operation were you involved
with?
The whole thing, from April when we went up the mountain—that had been a firebase
before and then they abandoned it, and now we‘re coming back to work the valley again.
Interviewer: The A Shau Valley?
The A Shau Valley and that was the thing, you work an area and then you move because
of the monsoons and gave it back. 29:05 At this time when we went back for Ripcord,
they had stopped the bombing and the Vietnamese were bringing down a lot of big stuff
and that was actually, what they called their warehouse area. We hit some cave‘s where
there were brand new clothes in the caves, bunkers, the roofs on bunkers would be three
great big logs on the top of the bunkers and three logs this big around stacked on top of
one another, so a five hundred pound bomb isn‘t going to make a dent in that thing.
That‘s the kind of things you ran into, a lot of bunkers like that. They came in through—
they didn‘t mind the monsoons, they weren‘t flying helicopters, so they were building
and they built this warehouse area in there and they built all these huge bunkers and they
brought all these--122 mortars is what they brought down, big guns, artillery, and they
41
�were bringing artillery down. 30:06 They were bringing tanks down. We were out—
one time when we were out with Chuck Hawkins we ran across a phone cable this big
around running along the jungle floor. It was that heavy of an area and they had that
much communication. I mean, it was huge. We ran into one cave and we found brand
new Mickey Mouse sweatshirts. What are the odds you‘d find something like that?
Mickey Mouse printed on the front of them.
Interviewer: How intense was the fighting around there, in that operation?
Ripcord was the worst we‘d ever had. They wanted it bad and we were a big thorn in
their side. We had Ripcord and I think Ripcord was about eight hundred and fifty meters
high [officially 927]. They had Hill 1000, so they were a thousand meters high. 31:02
We tried to get on 1000 and got nailed quite a few times, got booted back. I‘m going up
Ripcord and got booted out quite a few times—finally got up there and they started
building—we secured it basically, and they started building the firebase. They brought in
another set of mortars, so we took our mortars out and went with Chuck and worked that
area. I mean, everyplace you went—we flew in, helicoptered in, we‘re making a combat
assault onto this ridgeline, and this huge mountain went this way and the ridgeline came
down and the mountain was little on this side and went back that way. The ridgeline was
only this wide, maybe a third of the skid would actually set on the ground, and the rest
would hang over each end. We‘re getting out, and we‘re getting mortared as we‘re
getting out of the helicopter. We‘re getting mortars and we‘re running out and the first
thing we run into is bunkers. 32:02 We find mortar rounds laying all over the place,
their mortar rounds, and they just left. We came in and they hauled ass, you know. So,
we came in and secured that for a little bit, took a bunch of mortar rounds—we had a—
42
�they called in some—I thought it was a marine airplane. It was a prop plane like they‘d
use in WWII. They called in a couple two hundred pound bombs, or something, and this
ridgeline was so steep you could watch the waterfall, one of the most beautiful things you
could see, like we‘d seen in Hawaii, this beautiful fall coming out of the mountain. I
mean, it was steep and there was a stream down below and this mountain slid down to it,
all just beautiful. We were getting mortared when we came in on that, so they called in
this plane. I don‘t know who it was or who—I wasn‘t privy to that sort of thing, but he
had a couple of two hundred pounders, I‘m guessing. 33:03 I thought they were both
supposed to land out in front because that‘s where we were taking all the fire from. One
landed out there and the other one landed behind us and fortunately this thing was so thin
and narrow-- if it flat we‘d all have been in big trouble, but fortunately it just went down
the mountain and blew up the side of the mountain a little bit, put a little pock mark in it.
We went from there—we secured that, and the next morning we got up and we‘re starting
to walk out through the jungle and we‘d gotten a new point guy and I find out later by
reading in the book Ripcord, reading Chuck Hawkins‘s account of everything, we had a
new point man and he‘d only been in country a few weeks and why they even had him up
there at point wasn‘t real sure, but it was Wieland Norris, Chuck Norris‘s brother. 34:11
He walked up to a bomb crater and they had a 51 caliber set up on the other side and they
killed him and the next man, so I know everybody went down and that was when I really
got my first—we‘d been in situations like that before, but that was the first time I‘d got
where I could actually see them—they were going to flank us. This was to take
everybody to the front, everybody ran up to the front and everybody‘s hollering, ―Shoot
up their weapons‖, the two that were down, shoot up their weapons and get up there, but
43
�they were running through the jungle down the side of the mountain and going to come
around to the side, and that was the first time I‘d really seen that in action. 35:08 It‘s
like a football play on TV, you know, you hear about this play and it was the first time
I‘d actually seen something like that work out. We got a medivac in and nothing ever
came of it. There was a little bit of fire fight, but I don‘t know how long it lasted or
anything. I don‘t remember much about it other than getting the medevac in and getting
those guys out. We were out again with them—it was just a rough time at that time. I
don‘t remember much about that one.
Interviewer: It’s kind of a blur, you’re out there trudging around in the jungle, and
you’re under fire periodically?
Yeah, because I don‘t know why, I don‘t remember leaving and getting back to the
firebase. We went out again because we went out with the line company and I don‘t
think it was Chuck Hawkins that time that we went out with, but we went out with
another line company. 36:03 I could never figure it out, there was an illumination
parachute in the next mountain over, in a tree. We were on Cuoc Mon Mountain and this
was another mountain in the valley in between us. We were out there with a line
company and it just got to be—they didn‘t like us, we knew they didn‘t, we got a bet
going that we can shoot that, we‘re so good we can shoot that parachute out of that tree
with three rounds. Everybody‘s putting their money together and just the three of us, we
probably couldn‘t come up with more than seventy five or eighty bucks, or something
and they were betting all this money saying, ―Hey you can‘t do that you guys‖. I always
tell the story that we took it out in two rounds, pretty impressive when you do that. We
were down to the Ripcord reunion and Pops was there and I was telling him that story
44
�and Pops looks at me and he says, ―You took that out with the first round‖, and I said,
―Yeah, but that sounds kind of brazen to say that I got it with the first round. 37:01
It
sounds better if I say I got it with the second round, it makes me feel better‖. But that
was just one—why of all—and I asked him, to this day. One of the things that really got
me going when I had my PTSD was the fact that I went back to that day and here we‘re
around Ripcord and why are they letting us shoot mortar rounds at a parachute? Now,
some way or another we had to get some kind of clearance from above to be able to—
unless you under attack in a firefight where you need to fire and waste three rounds.
These guys hump these rounds out there, they don‘t like us anyway, do they just want to
lighten their load three rounds and why were we even able to do this? 38:00
Interviewer: I’m not sure how tightly a company was going to be supervised when
it’s just sort of marching around. I mean, you’ll get orders from above, or
something, but you weren’t in an area that had civilians in it, so that restriction
wasn’t there.
It wouldn‘t have been anything like that, but it was at a time where, when you got into
something they said if you call for more artillery they‘d say, ―You‘re almost at your limit,
your allotment for the time‖. It doesn‘t make sense, you got all these Vietnamese around
you why would you want to—I mean, I—granted we don‘t have lights up there showing
them where we‘re at, but I think if a mortar going off don‘t tell them where to look for
you what‘s going to, you know. It doesn‘t make sense, it never has made sense. That‘s
one of the things I asked Pops and it must have come down from somebody that we could
do that. 39:02 We didn‘t have, other than the—whoever was the—I can‘t remember his
name, but it seems like it was Charlie Company that we were with. Whether the Captain,
45
�the commander of that company—why would he even do that? None of it made any
sense at all.
Interviewer: Company commanders rotated through there pretty quickly too, so
maybe the guy didn’t know any better. You remembered that it seemed rather
strange. You mentioned in the process that you’re starting to see kind of rationing
of ammunition and resources, you have a quota of artillery that you can call and
that kind of thing. Now, was that true throughout the whole time you were in
Vietnam, or did that change over time?
At that point in time at Ripcord they were really trying to downplay Ripcord. There was
no mention of Ripcord until thirty years later. 40:00 I mean nothing , and now all of a
sudden in the VFW magazine we were number one at being—having seventy one guys
killed in one battle, more than they had at Khe Sanh and all of a sudden more than were
killed at Hamburger Hill, we were number one, Ripcord was number one, in one battle
we lost seventy-one guys, and I know for a fact that we lost a lot more than that, we lost
almost five hundred, but it went on from April until July. So, in that time, I know for a
fact, I got the paperwork that shows the names and places and what happened, but, why
the distinction all of a sudden? You never heard about it, but they were trying to keep it
low key. They were trying to make it look like the ARVNs were taking over, and the
ARVNs weren‘t out there. There were four hundred and fifty, I believe, of us on the
mountain top, on the firebase at Ripcord. 41:05 It was about the size of three football
fields and I never really seen the other side. You get up and you take a tour, you go down
to whatever you have to do, to the latrine or hump ammo from the chopper base, so I only
got to see my side of the mountain. But according to books now, that have come out,
46
�there was like four hundred and fifty of us on the mountain and we were surrounded by
7800 NVA from their—and, of course, without the bombing all these things were coming
down and we were being mortared regularly every day and every night. Tear gas, every
day, every night, rocketed, shot at, sniper fire, every time. I built my hooch underneath
the chopper pad. Pretty good thinking, they got PSP planking for the deck , steel roof—I
got a picture of me laying there and there‘s the steel roof, while we were building our
hooch underneath this chopper pad. 42:07 You build on the side of the mountain and
fill sandbags and build walls out in front, so you‘re mountain on the sides, and I got a
steel roof and mountain all around me and off at the front.
Interviewer: Now, do you have places where you would be actually on the firebase
and firing a mortar from there?
Oh yeah, you‘d come back—you may go out with a line company and be out a week or
two weeks or three week and then you‘d come back to the firebase and they would rotate
another gun out if they wanted another gun out. I had the fortune or misfortune, we were
liked, they liked us and we were good. I mean, just absolutely good and that was the
beauty of it and why—it was hard to leave, leave the country and leave those guys there.
I mean, you‘re such a good family and we were just good. 43:03 Chuck Hawkins didn‘t
take anybody else, just us and we kind of volunteered, I guess and we liked him. We
liked to get out beyond the firebase, on the firebase you‘re always having to do
something, where out there it was like boy scouts, you‘re out camping and getting shot at
a little bit more.
Interviewer: What was it like to be out there at night though? You’re out there on
patrol there’s a lot of enemy around in the area.
47
�What you do is you go out and you hump down a stretch of the jungle, depending on if
you‘re humping up the mountain or down the mountain, across the ridgeline, or whatever.
You‘d hump along and you had the line guys out in front of you and they‘re out there far
enough you can—they‘re just not quite out of view, I mean that‘s how far spaced you are,
you‘re not bunched up, so you‘re maybe, probably, fifty to seventy five yards apart
individually. 44:01 You‘re humping along and you got your weapons and you‘re
looking and watching everybody‘s—nobody‘s talking, it‘s all hand movements, hand
gestures and that and then you‘d go by a spot and somebody would make the gesture and
you‘d remember that spot. Then you‘d keep on going and you‘d wait for dusk and when
dusk came you‘d set up, you‘re going to setup your perimeter and this will be your
basecamp for the night. Well into, once it got dark then you‘d move back to that spot that
everybody pointed to, so that if anybody had seen you set up you wouldn‘t be where they
had seen you, you‘d be in a different area. So, in the middle of the night you‘d set up and
you‘d spend all night setting up. You‘d set, generally, you‘d sit back to back, so if the
guy you were with on guard went to fall asleep and doze off you‘d feel him, he‘d either
startle you awake or you‘d startle him awake if you happened to fall off. 45:05
Generally speaking there‘d be three guys and everybody, when you‘re on guard, sat back
to back depending on—if you‘re out on something like that you‘d have two guy out so
you had less sleep and then you‘re out—you get up in the morning and have your
cigarettes and fix your coffee and start on your way to someplace else.
Interviewer: Did it matter which company you were out with in terms of how
careful they were with all the security provisions and things?
48
�Some were a little lax on the—it didn‘t make any difference to what you did, but it made
it a lot more tense and that‘s why we probably volunteered to go with Chuck and his
company. We knew what they were and they knew what we were and we just meshed
and worked together, because I know a lot of them were lax with the smoking and the
noise, noise was a big thing, noise was a real big thing. 46:01
Interviewer: When you’re out there in the Ripcord area would you get attacked at
night? Would the enemy try to come in after you?
Oh yeah
Interviewer: What would you do when that happened?
Get as close to the ground as—wish you‘d dug a deeper hole. You dig your little foxhole
and wish you‘d dug it a little deeper. ―I wish I would have made this a little deeper and I
wish I were a little closer to somebody else‖. If something started happening your
adrenalin starts pumping and you don‘t know what you‘re doing, I mean you just don‘t
know what you‘re doing. Some guys don‘t do anything, some guys have their weapon
and will be firing and some guys will just hold their weapon up and shoot, just to say they
shot or something, I don‘t know. I was always leery about not having enough
ammunition, so I was pretty conservative. 47:00 When I had the sixty [M60 machine
gun] most of those guys, they didn‘t like it because I didn‘t—I was too conservative with
it. I was always afraid of running out of ammunition and it‘s not like you can just go to
the next corner and pick up—the chopper can‘t get in, you‘re in the triple canopy jungle
and you don‘t know if they‘re going to drop it where you‘re at or what you‘re going to
have and really you just need to lay down a basic firing when things start happening.
You don‘t know what‘s going on, all of a sudden things just get so wild, nothing like in
49
�your wildest dreams. We‘d eat—everything you carried was on your back and most of it
was water and ammunition. You didn‘t take a lot of food, everybody, usually, would get
a case of C rations and you‘d trade off what you didn‘t like and your cigarettes, or
whatever. 48:00 I usually carried mostly fruit and then you ate, maybe, once a day,
make coffee and hot chocolate, you‘d have packets of hot chocolate and coffee. You‘d
make those and you‘d eat up whatever you could find. Maybe somebody might have
killed a snake and you have a little fry, snake fry, or monkey, or something, because you
didn‘t—food wasn‘t that big an option and it wasn‘t something you really relied on that
much. I mean, you could go a whole day without eating anything and then late in the
afternoon have something, a pound cake and some crackers and that would pretty well do
you. I think it also made for the fact that you were not always having to take a crap in the
woods, you know, you‘re kind of on your own on that. 49:06 That one you have to kind
of—―I‘m going to go over here while‖ and ―Be sure to holler this word before you come
back‖, you know. I think your body kind of says, ―If you don‘t eat you don‘t crap
though, so let‘s hold off a little bit‖.
Interviewer: Now, in the time when you’re hit in the I Corps sector there by the
Ripcord or elsewhere, are there particular kinds of events or incidences, things that
happened to you , that kind of stand out in your memory, or have come back to you,
that you haven’t brought in here yet?
No, the shooting of the parachute was the biggest thing, I‘d always remember that and
there were a few things that happened on Ripcord and I don‘t usually get into them.
50:00 We were getting hit and we were always getting hit, it was just a matter of—
things start coming in and how quick you could get--- you‘d start firing back, so you‘d
50
�start firing—we‘d have the mortar up within seconds. It was already set up the guns and
tubes are set and the rounds are setting there. They‘d call, ―We need‖, and we‘d have—
Delta Company called in and they were pretty much annihilated. I think the CO got a
satchel charge in his chest and I don‘t think, at the time we were talking to them on the
radio, I don‘t think there were more than two of them that were actually alive at that
point. That got you going and then Chuck Hawkins called in, I don‘t think it was Chuck,
somebody called in for Alpha Company and they had some gooks coming after them.
51:10 They were fighting them off the best they could and then somebody else was
coming along—I don‘t remember how that went.
Interviewer: There were units patrolling around Ripcord all the time, so they would
get into trouble and they would get fire support from wherever they could get it.
Would you talk to them?
They would call in for the TOC. The TOC was setup in its own bunker and we had these
land mines that came out. The phones like the one I got in my trailer, in fact the picture I
got in my album shows that phone and that‘s why I‘ve got them. Those are actual things
we—the same things that we used.
Interviewer: Would enemy bombardments take out the land lines periodically?
Would those get cut or were those well buried?
I guess it could happen, it never—nothing like that ever—most of your land lines and
stuff were right in the ground along the edge of the sandbags, so unless it hit right on
there—52:10 We had a lot of them, the top of my hooch—I‘ve got pictures of the top of
my hooch, it was all sandbags and all this dirt would have been inside these green
sandbags and the whole top of my hooch was brown because the sandbags were blown
51
�away, so it‘s all covered with just brown. The way we had built our hooch, I could
stand—this was the chopper pad—I could stand in my hooch and my head would just
barely be just a little bit to the chopper pad, maybe my chin could touch on the chopper
pad, and the chopper would be—and you‘d be looking at the bottom and the tail rotors
were going there and blowing all this stuff, but we could stand in there and our pit wall
was here and the mountain went down like this , but we could stand in our hooch and
watch the helicopters on top of the roof be shot up, watch the tracers come over our head.
53:04 You could turn around and watch the tracers come in and shoot these things up,
but because of the angle they couldn‘t get us because of the way we were setup. All
these choppers they‘d be up there—a Chinook came in one time and the whole side of it
just started popping open and it just shuddered and set down, and then they brought in
another Chinook and were going to take it apart so they brought in this other Chinook and
they hooked up these big straps, pull straps, up to this big rotor on, four blades on the big
rotor on the back end of it and the another Chinook came in and a guys standing on the
other one and he clicks it onto the bottom of the Chinook and the Chinook pulls up and
disengages the rotors and starts taking off. They got to have a kind of downward motion
to get a forward motion to come off the mountain, that‘s why you‘re up so high, so they
can get going, and they come off from that and this is trailing behind them. 54:05 It‘s
probably a three or four inch strap, nylon belt strap, doubled up and everything. They
come off the mountain and we‘re watching them and they start leveling out and this
rotor‘s behind them, well, it‘s turning the whole time it‘s behind them and that strap is
knotting right up like a rubber band knot up, and all of a sudden you could see the tail
gunner, the guy on the—they got the back deck down and they got a 60 mounted on it
52
�and the guys laying on it as protection coming into Ripcord. You could see him and I
think the whites of his eyes are like this and this rotors right behind him and it‘s getting
closer and closer and he must have called in because all of a sudden the guys from the
guns on the side, because they got 60‘s out the side windows on the Chinook and the
guys from the side are out looking and looking and the rotors coming. 55:05 All of a
sudden the Chinook did one of these, and it just nosed up like that, and the propeller
from, the props from the other Chinook, came down underneath and you could see the
release when they released the cable and that thing just fluttered through the air. That
thing would have taken them out and the thing fluttered through the air and almost made
it back to Ripcord. At that point they decided to just push them off the side of the
mountain and burn them up. They were full of fuel-- they would shoot off a burning light
for three seconds because it‘s made out of magnesium and they just tear up right away.
That was one thing; you didn‘t want to be in a Chinook that crashed.
Interviewer: Did you hear a lot, was there counter battery fire? Did you hit enemy
mortars if you could, or figure out where they were?
Yeah, if we got a call in--Pops would get the call and they‘d say ‗Troops in the open‖, or
grouping, or mass of troops. 56:07 If we already had a VT set up for them, and they
were in our VT, we were on them like that. One time they setup on a hill across from us
and they were firing mortars at us and we were firing mortars at them. We tried to take
out anything. We tried to take out anything, not necessarily troops, because the big
things, the mortars and that would do more damage than just troops because everybody‘s
fighting with just rifles.
53
�Interviewer: Would they move their mortars around and fire a couple rounds from
one spot and then move it?
Yeah
Interviewer: Were they just trying to draw a bead on your mortar pits and take
those out?
They were trying to do any kind of damage they could. I don‘t know, generally—at
Berchtesgaden they came down the mountain, they would zee the mortars down there, so
they were planning on—I don‘t think they were moving their armor, they were on
another mountain watching us and they came down the mountain in a zee fashion like
that. 57:06 That‘s basically the way our guns were set up—we had a number one pit
here and a number two pit, which was George and I, here and the other one was kind of
directly below it at the illumination pit, I think that‘s what they were trying to do, just
blow anything that was there whether it was a person, a gun or mortar, it didn‘t make any
difference, they were trying to cover as much as what they could.
Interviewer: Do you remember leaving that?
The worst day of my life, it was terrible to leave those guys, I mean I felt bad. 58:03
Interviewer: Did you go out by yourself or did your whole squad go together?
No, just, Oscar Utley and I came in together, he was from Texas and he worked for Dr.
Pepper down there. He worked for Dr. Pepper, so he used to get a lot of care packages
with Dr. Pepper in it, but him and I came in together, same day, and he ended up being a
FTC and a matter of fact, I got a picture of him and I leaving my hooch and of course
we‘re getting—to bring a helicopter in is life threatening, they had so many of them shot
down, I mean just a bundle. What they did, the helicopters would come in and just be
54
�about a foot, or so, above the deck and they‘d kick the ammunition out if you needed it,
when you needed ammunition, kick ammunition, food, or grenades, whatever you have to
have. 59:02 Oscar and I are standing in my pit and we got everything and we‘re ready
to go. We have two days left in country, we‘re leaving on the 12th and this is the 10th.
Interviewer: Even though you’d become a short timer you were still out in the field.
Normally a short timer is when they have forty five days left and you get a clerk's job or
whatever. No, we were out there and we had two days left in country. Now they‘re
worried about getting us out of there, because I don‘t know what comes up if you over
extend somebody, I don‘t know what happens. I know your tour is three hundred and
sixty five days and that‘s pretty much set in stone it seems like. We had two days left in
country. They were bringing in some ammunition, some supplies, so Oscar and I ran to
the helicopter and we dove over the ammunition they‘re kicking out and got on the Huey.
00:06 The pilot looks at us and says, ―You can‘t go, we‘re too heavy, you can‘t go‖, and
I pointed my rifle that way and I said, ―We know how to lighten it up‖, and he took off
and we were too heavy. We came down that mountain and the skids were in the treetops.
The skids were in the treetops when we came down that mountain, and we went treetop
all the way back, because it was too heavy.
Interviewer: How long was that before they shut down Ripcord?
That was on the 10th that I left and by the time I got home on the 23rd, Ripcord had been
over run and they took everybody off and they left everything behind. 1:00 I got a letter
from David that I‘ll show you and David tells what they could carry, what they had in
their hands. A lot of guys didn‘t get their rucksacks out, they left all the radar units, all
the equipment, all the big guns, the mortars, and then they brought in the biggest B-52
55
�strike ever, the United States has ever done, and just blasted the top of the mountain
away. There were six guys left behind and they were killed. They were hiding
somewhere and didn‘t get out. Then they went back in—I guess after they, even after—
there were Vietnamese running all over the place when they were blowing it up, and even
afterwards when they went back into there, there were Vietnamese all over the place.
That was it—I got home, flew into Washington, Fort Lewis, and I was there twenty four
hours sitting in the airport trying to get a flight back to Lansing. 2:06 I couldn‘t get one,
we were flying military standby and there was a group of Girls Scouts that were flying
just standby, but we bumped two of the Girl Scouts. Well, you‘ve never been cusses out
until you‘ve been cussed out by a Girl Scout mother because she either has to stay behind
with one of the girls or two of the girls, but they got bumped and they were irate. I said,
―I‘ve been gone a year, I‘m going‖---we got into Detroit like two in the morning, I think
it was, it was foggy, it was so foggy you couldn‘t see even across the street. No planes
were flying, you could have thrown a bowling ball through the airport, and there was
nobody in the airport at two o‘clock in the morning. I mean, this is way back, I mean,
this is nothing; nobody, and we got a cab ride home. 3:01
There were four of us
coming back to Lansing and we got a cab and we each pitched in for the cab.
Interviewer: So, we have basically gotten you out of Vietnam, back to Detroit in the
fog and you took a cab from Detroit to Lansing.
There was nothing flying and we were in the Detroit airport. We‘d been gone a year and
at that point we would have walked. We all got together, pooled our money that we had
and found a cabby and asked him, ―How much will it take to get us back to Lansing?‖
He told us and we all piled in his cab, and you couldn‘t see the car in front of you, and
56
�he‘s trying to go down the highway like forty or fifty miles an hour because he wants to
get his money, get to Lansing and get back. We told him, ―Hey, we just all got back from
Vietnam, take your time‖, and we all had our heads stuck out the windows feeling for
curbs and it‘s just amazing we didn‘t have somebody sitting out on the front bumper
watching the car in front, you know. 4:12 You couldn‘t see anything—it took us—we
didn‘t get back in town, in here, until like five o‘clock in the morning. One of the guys
lived out on Cavanaugh, so—I can‘t remember, we dropped them off as we came in and I
was—Greg lived out on Cavanaugh, his mother-in-law lived there and still does, so I got
out when he got out and took my duffle bag and I lived over here next thing and started
walking home at that point. I get home and it‘s probably quarter to six in the morning. I
got home, walked up on the front porch and the newspaper guy was delivering the
newspaper, so I‘m sitting out in front reading the newspaper. It was my in-laws house
and my father in-law came out to get the paper with coffee in his hand and just lost his
cup of coffee, he spilled it. 5:05 I was sitting out there reading the paper and that was
―cumin home‖. I went over to visit my folks and Greg got back about the same time. He
was the one I went through basic with and we drove home. We met up again, everybody
got together and we had a little cookout and cake. I used to hang around with Greg quite
a bit and then we both got divorced and he went his way and I haven‘t talked to him in
quite a few years. I talked to George, I had—I went over to my mother‘s house, she
called me one day, and she said, ―I got a letter here from a Boardwyne, Amy
Boardwyne‖, and I never put two and two together, I didn‘t have any idea, and I said,
―Okay‖. Well, when I was in Vietnam, George Boardwyne, he didn‘t have a girlfriend,
so I had him, the same age as my sister, I had him sending my sister Joy letters and they
57
�were writing back and forth. 6:05 Well, Amy, his daughter now, was going through
some of his stuff and found the address and wrote a letter to me, to my old address,
because that‘s where I lived, and my sister lived, to ask if I would mind if George called
me, or would I call him and she‘d pay for the call, just call collect, or write a letter or
whatever. I finally, about a month later I called him and what do you say to somebody?
This is thirty years later, and we talked for a little bit, but we really had nothing in
common and I haven‘t talked to him since, and now it‘s been another fifteen years. I was
at a reunion and I happened to see a guy at the reunion that said, ―You were at Ripcord
weren‘t you?‖ I said, ―Yeah‖, and he had a Ripcord newsletter, one of the first ones and
Pop‘s name was in there, John Henderson. 7:06 I said, ―I know Pops‖, and he said, ―I
thought you might‖, so I got his name and address from that and I called him. I called
him and I‘m laying up in bed talking to him on the phone and ―Pops can tell you every
minute, anything that went on. He was right in with André Lucas, our battalion
commander and all the higher ups; he was right close with them. There‘s an article that
was in Stars and Stripes, I‘ve got in on the trailer, where André Lucas, our battalion
commander was setting in Pop‘s chair, which was made out of some ammo boxes and
Pops was giving him a haircut. Pops gave everybody haircuts. André Lucas said,
―Where else can you get a haircut and watch an air strike at the same time?‖ He‘s sitting
out there at Ripcord during a bombing run, you know. 8:06
André was killed on top of
my hooch. His TOC, of course, was right behind the chopper pad and he and his XO
were killed on top of my hooch. He was a great guy. From talking to Pops and I didn‘t
know André personally, but just from in passing and the fact that his place was on top of
my place, being tenants on the same mountain, he was a soldier‘s soldier. I mean, he
58
�looked out for his guys; he took care of us really well. When we needed something he
was there for us and you don‘t get that from a lot of them. Like I say some of them above
him—we got clean clothes and ice cream from our company commander if you had a
body count. 9:02 Other than that, look at you, you can do without food and water for
three or four days at least. We did that, we had that happen where they wouldn‘t
resupply us and we had to eat whatever you could find.
Interviewer: Now, when you got back home, did you talk to people much about
what you had seen or done in Vietnam, or did you kind of put that in a box
someplace?
I went to a couple parties with some friends that we neighbors of—we‘d partied a lot of
times before I went, when we were younger and stuff. We used to go—we‘d always have
all these parties, and I went to those and nobody wanted to hear about it to being with and
a lot of them—there was a gal from Ann Arbor, her and her husband came to parties and
she called us baby killers. 10:10 it may sound strange, and I know you hear it, and you
may think this is just another Vietnam vet saying BS and I hate it when people say it, that
they called us that. She called me that, Greg and I were together partying at Mike‘s
house and she was from Ann Arbor—she was a student at the U of M. We never got with
the group after that. My kids all went to Everett High School where I went and Nick
played baseball and he was a batboy for a kind of AAA ball team here in town, or ABC
whatever they call it, so we‘d go out to the municipal, the ball park, and families would
be there. 11:09 These guys were older than me and Nick was just a little guy, probably
only six, seven, or eight years old and he was the batboy, he was kind of their little
mascot kind of thing. He loved ball, he loved baseball so I got him in Raymon, I knew
59
�Rich and Rich, they played all over, we went to Battle Creek and we‘d go all over to play
ball. I could go to the ball park and wear my jungle fatigue shirt and nobody would sit
anywhere near me; I‘d have the bleachers to myself. There is a real stigma that goes with
it. The first psychiatrist I went to see when—I had a bad time with my heart and blood
pressure and I went—started in with the VA seeing—getting medicine and stuff and
seeing a psychiatrist and my first psych told me, ―Well, you shouldn‘t wear green and
you shouldn‘t watch war movies‖. 12:06 I‘m thinking—this is just like six or eight
years ago and I‘m thinking--for thirty years before that a friend of mine was in—he
didn‘t make the military because he was 4F, he had a hunchback and he was collecting.
He collected from the Civil War on up, military things, and he‘s got all kinds—just tons,
huge barns full of it, so he would take me to these gun and knife shows because he
wanted to authenticate what he was buying for his Vietnam collection. So, it‘s not that
the Vietnam—I would buy a few things, we were raising kids, and for three or four bucks
I‘d find a dummy grenade or, you know, a patch or something like that and that‘s what
started out the collection. Then it just kind of got out of hand, but we would do air
shows. He got me—he had a deuce and a half and the trailers and everything and he got
me taking my collection—I was helping him basically, I went along to help him. 13:07
then he said, ―Why don‘t you bring some of your stuff?‖ Well, we‘d unload one of the
trailers and I‘d put a poncho liner down, or a raincoat, or something like that and I‘d put
some of my pictures down there. Well, when you went to the military side , all of a
sudden all the military people, and the people who were coming to see the military were
coming to look at my stuff, and I thought, ―Well, that‘s really nice‖, they were interested
in my things, you know, and ever since I got back and he got me going, I was always
60
�looking for something, and I don‘t know if it was a person, somebody to say something
particular, or a piece of equipment, I never—ever since I got back I‘ve had this problem.
I‘ve been hunting, hunting, hunting for this thing and that‘s how I kept buying all this
stuff, thinking that—I‘ll go to these shows and run into guys and I run into military guys
all the time. 14:07 I‘ve been just talking to them for thirty years, but I could never find
that answer, but that‘s how everything started and then my second, the VA Psychologist I
ended up with, the second one, her and I got to talking and I told her, ―I‘m hunting and I
don‘t know what I‘m hunting for‖. I could never figure out what I was hunting for, but
what‘s this thing that‘s eating me up and has for forty years? I can‘t get peace; I have not
found that thing that draws the line and says it‘s ended, it‘s over. I‘m looking for this
thing that finishes it. It‘s like a book and somebody ripped off the last page or chapter,
what is it? What is it and how does it end? 15:00 I got to talk to her and I didn‘t like
talking to her at the beginning because she was young. I‘m thinking—I‘m going through
all this heart stuff and all these problems, PTSD‘s got me, my wife and I are—I‘m trying
to kill myself—I mean, yeah, at two o‘clock in the morning I‘m leaving the house here
and walking down through the worst part of town carrying a knife, just looking for
somebody to fight. I would drink, I drank a lot and I‘d go out and I was funny when I
first started drinking, but it just went away and I would drink and not drunk, but really
drunk and trying to find this peace and whatever I‘m looking for and then I got ugly and
all I wanted to do was fight, so then I had to stop doing that because Jennifer wouldn‘t
leave when she was with me. I‘d toss her the keys and say, ―Go home, I‘ll be home in a
little bit‖, and then I‘d go on about my business of getting into a fight. 16:05 At one
point in time she said, ―No, I‘m not leaving‖, and at that point it clicked in my head that
61
�something‘s got to change. I can‘t do this anymore because now I‘m endangering her
life, and that‘s what I‘m—all my life I‘ve been trying to protect people, you know, and it
just carries through, it never leaves you, that being drilled into your head back when
you‘re nineteen, it never leaves you. I went back to the same thing, so I quit drinking and
started going to PTSD groups, and seeing a Psychiatrist. I see one a week, and Angela
was the one, I told her, ―I don‘t have time to educate her‖. I told her at the beginning, at
the first, I said, ―You know, people who deal with Vietnam veterans usually die. You
should really find some other line and get away from the vets, it‘s not healthy‖. 17:00
When I came back my doctor, who was my age, died and the next person I got in touch
with, he died. Not knowing, I‘m talking with Angela and she‘s getting me through this
thing, she has cancer and she dies, and this was like just a few years ago. I was really-she found my answer and I lost her. Now I‘m starting in with, I got Bill, a new guy that
has taken over our group, but if it wasn‘t for the group, I‘d of been back out there on the
street walking with my knife again.
Interviewer: And you wouldn’t be in a place where you can talk to me.
Yeah, and any of the others, you know, that‘s what hold me to my firm space, is I think,
―All the guys that went through this and didn‘t come back, that‘s what my trailer‘s
about‖, and that‘s what Angela told me. 18:03 She said, ―Your treatment doesn‘t make
anything different for your PTSD, that‘s not the cause of your PTSD, that‘s not bringing
on your PTSD, you could get rid of all the green in the world and it wouldn‘t stop your
PTSD, that‘s not the problem. The problem you have is in your head‖. We started
talking and I said, ―I know when we were in one of the firefights, everybody around me
is getting shot or dying‖. I said, I told her, ―I talk a lot to God. I really feel bad because I
62
�don‘t dare to step into a church because I‘ve got a lot of promises I knew I couldn‘t keep
and I think he knew I couldn‘t keep them too—God get me out of this, get me to—give
us another day—give us something, somehow help us through this‖. 19:03 We were
talking about the trailer and that and she said, ―That‘s what you‘re looking for‖. I said,
―What do you mean?‖ She said, ―This is your promise to god, in the trailer. That you‘re
keeping all these guys alive, you‘re keeping them well, you‘re keeping them
remembered, and that‘s what you promised God. This is your payment; this is how
you‘re repaying him by doing this. That‘s why the trailer, you won‘t get better getting rid
of all this and staying away from it, that has nothing to do with it. You can meet all the
veterans you want, you can wear all the green you want. This is your promise to God and
that‘s what‘s in your brain and that‘s what you‘re looking for‖. And I finally found
peace.
Interviewer: That makes a pretty good place for us to close this out, so I want to
thank you for taking the time to talk to me today.
I‘m glad we had this time to tell the people. 20:05
63
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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WhippleB1172V
Title
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Whipple, Bruce (Interview transcript and video), 2011
Creator
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Whipple, Bruce
Description
An account of the resource
Bruce Whipple was born in Lansing, Michigan, and was drafted into the Army two years after high school. He trained as an infantryman at Fort Bragg and Fort Dix, and went to Vietnam in July, 1969. He was assigned to mortar platoon Echo Company, 2/506 Infantry, 101st Airborne Division. His unit fought in the A Shau Valley, then near the coast around Camp Evans, then in the Ripcord campaign. He spent nearly all of his tour in the field, much of it attached to line companies rather than staying on firebases.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2011-07-27
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4084378ac2a5eb6ee3f7b819905d24f0.mp4
e93c66fa5badca0536dd01613d4536d1
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d414131540ed74fb9032e6338eee8fc.pdf
0c4220105c2cdda158740303267c176f
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of Interviewee: Clyde Westra
Name of War: Vietnam War
Length of Interview: (01:36:50)
Pre-Enlistment
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Born in Grand Haven, MI in 1948 (1:50)
Attended Grand Haven Junior High, got interested in the Marine Corps at this
time (2:20)
Took a week off of school to make up his mind about quitting school and joining
the Marine Corps (3:15)
Ended up joining (3:20)
Marines appealed to him because of his brother in-law’s involvement in the Corps
(4:15)
Did not have to wait until he was 18 to join because of his score on the aptitude
test and his parents signed off (5:20)
Joined on January 27, 1965 (5:30)
Training
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Went to Detroit for the basic physical, then home for 2 days and off again to
California (5:45)
Flew into San Diego and went to the Marine Corps Recruitment Depot (MCRD)
(6:30)
Took the enlistment oath and 16 weeks of boot camp there (6:45)
Thought it was the worst possible thing in the world (7:05)
Day started at 5:30 am, and got done whenever the drill instructors decided to be
done (9:00)
Came home for 30 days after boot camp was over (11:50)
Already had orders to go back to Camp Pendleton, and knew he was being
shipped overseas (12:10)
Active Duty
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Two weeks after his leave, he received final orders to go to Okinawa (12:20)
Scored well enough on his tests that he was a Combat Engineer (12:50)
Was in Okinawa with an Engineer company for 4-8 weeks (13:15)
Was shipped to Vietnam (13:45)
Arrived in Vietnam via transport ship (14:25)
First duty station was at a resupply company in a secured area (14:45)
Stayed there for 6-8 months, training and doing support and logistics (15:15)
Moved to Danang, and was trained to be a radio operator (16:25)
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Life expectancy of a radio operator in combat is about 15 minutes (16:35)
Was attached to different outfits as a Helicopter Support Team Member (HST)
(17:00)
Would go out into the field and call in resupply operations, bombs, food,
whatever was needed for the outfit (17:30)
Also had to call in Medical Evacuations, which was not his favorite job (17:45)
Always two HST members tag teamed the radio, in case one was injured or killed
(18:55)
Saw all kinds of action: involved in all sorts of fighting (19:40)
Traveled the A Shau Valley at least 6 times, nicknamed it the Valley of Death
(19:45)
Carried a map with him, marked all the places they had been (20:00)
Would clear out the Valley, return home, but then something new would come up
(20:25)
During the Tet Offensive, he was sent to the city of Wei to set up an ammo dump
(20:45)
Was then sent to Khe Sanh during the seige of the city (21:00)
Was shelled for 77 days, nonstop (21:15)
When choppers were called for resupply, they wouldn’t land for fear of being
shelled (21:30)
The C-130’s wouldn’t land either, just slide their supplies out the back door and
fly away (21:45)
During the shelling, they would stay as far underground as possible (22:15)
Stayed armed at all times. When he started out in Vietnam, he carried an M-14
and a .45 caliber pistol (24:00)
Over time, he went from carrying the M-14 to the M-16, which he didn’t like
initially (24:40)
Never fully liked the gun (26:25)
Slept on the ground in the field, but slept in a cabin on a cot while on base (26:45)
Learned that war is mostly boredom, followed by 5 minutes of sheer terror
(28:00)
Would do anything they could to relieve the boredom (28:15)
Played cards, had different clubs you could join, or just writing letters home,
cleaning gear, etc (28:20)
Could go into the field at any moment, night or day (29:50)
Gear was always packed for 2-3 days (30:15)
Carried his pack, weapon and a 25 pound radio (30:40)
R&R
•
•
•
Was in-country for 26 months (31:20)
Was ready to go home at 13 months, but had a 6 month involuntary extension
because he was a radio operator (31:45)
Packed up to go home again, but got extended again because he was a radio
operator (33:00)
�•
•
•
•
•
•
Put in for R&R to go to Australia, then to Hawaii (34:10)
His dad met him in Hawaii (35:50)
Flew into Hilo, where his dad met him at the gangway (36:15)
Tried to rent a Camaro convertible, but he wasn’t 21 years old yet (37:45)
His father rented the car for him (38:20)
Won a Purple Heart, Bronze Star, Vietnam Campaign and Service ribbons (39:00)
Purple Heart
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Purple Heart was from Operation Swift (39:30)
Was in the A Shau Valley, and came to a rocky outcrop and the VietCong started
mortar attacks when they got there (39:40)
Ended up separated from his unit when everybody ran for cover (40:40)
Was hit by shrapnel, and took off through a hedge (41:25)
Found 26 of his unit, finally found the rest of his unit (41:50)
Despite the medic’s order, he tried to stay with his radio (42:30)
Medic injected him with morphine and he followed orders (42:55)
Found one of his good friends dying with the rest of the wounded (43:45)
Was lifted out on the first chopper out of the area, then spent the next 4 months at
the 12th US Air Force Hospital in Chu Lai(45:55)
Doctors stopped counting at 17 holes full of shrapnel (46:45)
Bronze Star
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Setting up a new base, had trenches and tents set up (47:50)
Vietcong started shelling from the hills (48:05)
Had a brand new lieutenant who was standing in the middle of the compound
(48:20)
Clyde jumped out of his hole, tackled the lieutenant and brought him back to his
hole (48:30)
Received the Bronze Star for his actions (48:45)
Was a TAV for a Vietnamese unit (49:00)
Never had a whole lot of interactions with Vietnamese people, but generally
found them to be friendly (54:10)
INTERVIEW ENDED, PICKED UP LATER
•
•
•
•
•
Some drug use in the Marines, not as much as the movies would have one
believed (49:30)
Could buy beer in secured area once shift was over (50:45)
Had a beer ration of 6 beers (51:10)
Cigarettes were very common, at least 90% of enlisted men smoked (52:00)
Occasionally knew exactly what was going on, but sometimes would only be
given the information necessary to proceed with his mission (55:50)
�•
•
•
In Danang, the USO came to put on shows (56:50)
Favorite show was from Martha Raye, who had a high fever at the time (57:00)
Loved listening to rock and roll while in country (58:20)
Post-Service
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Came home, got a job (59:30)
Started hanging out with a motorcycle club, drank too much (59:50)
A friend called him out on his change in attitude (1:00:50)
During his second marriage on a home improvement project, almost hit his
granddaughter with a hammer (1:03:20)
Came back the next day, but has no recollection where he went (1:04:30)
Wife suggested that he find help (1:05:20)
This occurred 20 years after he was discharged (1:05:30)
Started at the DAV, but it wasn’t helping too much (1:06:20)
Then went to the Veterans Center, got the help he needed (1:06:35)
They sent him to Chicago to a PTSD clinic for 35 days straight (1:08:40)
Lived with 26 other veterans with PTSD (1:09:10)
At the end of the clinic, started to realize what living with PTSD means (1:13:45)
Continued with counseling at the Disabled Veteran’s Administration (DAV)
(1:17:00)
Has learned to control his rage (1:17:15)
VA came out with a newsletter wanting Vietnam veterans tested for Agent
Orange (1:18:40)
VA later listed illnesses that stem from Agent Orange, of which he has one
(1:19:20)
Also has heart disease, poor eyesight, neuropathy of his legs stemming from
Agent Orange (1:22:15)
Has had some issues with the VA, but generally a good experience (1:22:40)
Never took advantage of the GI Bill, and belongs to the VFW and the American
Legion (1:30:00)
Feels his military experience was both good and bad (1:31:35)
Made him grow up, maybe too fast. Gained knowledge and got to travel (1:31:50)
Only bad part was spending 26 months in Vietnam (1:32:15)
Feels that everyone should spend some time in the military, but it takes the right
kind of person to remain in a combat zone (1:34:40)
Would do it again if he had to (1:35:10)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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WestraC
Title
A name given to the resource
Westra, Clyde (Interview outline and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Westra, Clyde
Description
An account of the resource
Clyde Westra was born in Grand Haven, MI in 1948. He dropped out of high school to join the Marine Corps at the age of 17. Clyde was initially trained and worked in Vietnam as a Combat Engineer, but was shipped to Danang and trained to be a radio operator. He served in Vietnam for 26 months, including at Khe Sanh and in the A Shau Valley. For his service in Vietnam, he recieved a Purple Heart, and Bronze Star. After Clyde came home, he was diagnosed with PTSD and other illnesses as a result of exposure to Agent Orange.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Moore, Deb (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-06-17
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/df4935447055f4119414c68ef1a6d551.mp4
e85880f7fae1e03861bc7ff370a3c734
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d6e031797bed45fc0a48a2dd85ffe2f.pdf
8ef108addcb1b050105ffe784b1e5239
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Vietnam War Era
Gary Wermuth
(48:04)
Introduction (00:21)
Gary was born near Ithaca, Michigan. His family lived on a farm, and in 1961 he went to
Michigan State University.
He graduated from college in 1965 and in January 1966 he was drafted into the United
States Army.
Military Training (01:01)
Gary was sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training.
After his basic, he then went to Fort Jackson, South Carolina. He spent six weeks there,
and the top of the class were sent to Fort Gordon for communications school. Gary was
at Fort Gordon until June 1966.
147 were in his company, and 7 were sent to Fort Dix, the remainder were sent to Fort
Ord, California and deployed to Vietnam.
Germany (02:04)
Gary was one of the seven to go to Fort Dix and deployed to Germany. Once there, he
was assigned to the 6th Battalion, 10th Artillery, Headquarters Battery in Bamberg.
His unit had 175mm self propelled guns that had a range of about twenty miles.
Gary worked in the communications area, and they trained in Grafenwöhr which was 100
kilometers from Bamberg.
They went there six different times for training for one month at a time. Their job was to
conduct training on setting up the guns, communication tests, and surveying coordinates
for the gunners.
The first round they fired was to zero the gun, the second round was for effect and they
could hit an eight foot diameter target at twenty miles. (04:25)
Later, Gary was given a secret security clearance and sent messages and worked with
cryptic technology.
Gary spent 18 months in Germany and returned to the states in December 1967. Just
prior to his being discharged, they allowed him to go home for Christmas. After that he
was sent to Fort Ben Harrison in Indianapolis, Indiana to be discharged. (06:25)
Civilian Life (06:40)
Once he was discharged, he went home and resumed his job at Massey Ferguson working
as a mechanical engineer.
The second year he was out he was required to report to the National Guard in Camp
Grayling, he did this for two summers. After the fourth summer, he was given his
official honorable discharge.
�Thinking Back (07:40)
Once a month, they had an alert drill that caused everyone to abandon the post and report
to a designated area. They would remain there from anywhere to a couple of hours to a
day or more.
When they returned they had to clean all their equipment and get things spit shined again.
Moving out to the designated area, they often ran over the Germans property and other
things with the big guns.
He got up at 6am and worked till 5pm.
Meals were good, and served in the mess hall.
They also had a PX where he could buy personal items, and he also bought a cuckooclock there and sent it home.
He never saw any live action, only training exercises.
Gary worked in the message center and would get many 10- 49’s, which were a transfer
request to Vietnam. Gary was happy where he was and never requested a transfer.
He went in as a private and was discharged as an E-5 Sergeant. (11:16)
His uniform has a 7th Army Patch on the shoulder (Seven Steps to Hell).
In basic training when he was training on the M-14, he was the highest shooter in the
training company with 78 out of 80 hits. Gary was given a medal and a special trophy for
this accomplishment.
Every one got a marksman medal, they had three different ranks: good, medium and
marksman.
When he was drafted, Gary was 22 years old.
He and his wife have been married since August 1968; they lived and worked in the
Detroit area.
The one experience that he learned the most from was working together as a team with
his fellow soldiers. When working with the 175mm guns, everyone had to have good
communication and teamwork.
It was not hard for him to readjust to civilian life once he got home. Since he was older
and had finished college, he fit right back in to society. Also, because he did not see any
combat, he did not have to worry about that sort of stress. (15:27)
His unit was on standby and ready to go to Vietnam if they were needed.
Since he was not infantry and the range that the guns could fire, he would have been
away from the action, but anything could happen.
Gary was able to write letters home, and was given free postage. He also bought a tape
recorder and made tapes and sent them home, and his family would do the same and send
them to him. They had no computers, but the tape worked well.
Germany was an ally at the time and was apart of NATO. Some of the locals liked the
military, and some were not as hospitable to them.
Gary and his wife went back to Bamberg two years ago and visited. It was the first time
he had been there since 1967. (19:21)
It looked pretty much the same, except maybe a little cleaner.
Bamberg was a small farming town with many private breweries that make beer and
wine.
�
Gary keeps in touch with one man that he served with; he currently lives in St. Louis,
Missouri.
When he was first inducted into the service, he was in Fort Wayne, Indiana and was then
bussed to basic training. (21:33)
When he went to Germany, he took a train to Fort Dix and was there for only three days
before he was flown over to Germany on a military transport plane.
In Germany, he was able to take leave and travel over Europe by train.
While there, he was given emergency leave to come home to the states because his father
had a heart attack.
The post was two miles from downtown Bamberg, so when the weather was nice they
would walk into town.
Gary was paid once a month. When he was drafted, he was paid $90 a month and when
he was discharged, he was making $250 a month. (23:45)
In Germany, he could go into town and get a big sandwich, fries and a one liter mug of
beer for $1.75.
His base also had an NCO club that had entertainment. They would also have softball
tournaments and picnics.
A battery was about 120 people. Total number of people on his base was about 1200 –
1500 people. (26:39)
The ranks of the Army go as such: private, private first class, private second class or
specialist 4, sergeant or specialist 5, staff sergeant and the highest sergeant is the master
sergeant. The officers have: second lieutenant, first lieutenant, major, colonel and
general. (28:20)
In basic training, they get you in shape. They did a lot of running and also bayonet
training, gas warfare training, night warfare, inspections, weapon assembly and cleaning.
After basic training everyone was given a special training school such as infantry or
motor transport. Gary was sent to communications. (30:28)
At Fort Jackson, they called it Pole City, and they learned how to climb telephone poles
and string telephone wire.
When Gary was sent to Fort Gordon, he learned about class A rotary and field
telephones.
Fort Dix was only a transfer base, but they still had KP and Guard Duties.
Guard duty was for two hour shifts starting at 6pm until 6am. (32:32)
Gary also took classes on photography and developing film.
He also did not learn to speak German while in country, because most of the people could
speak English.
When he was drafted, his family was concerned but he did not pay much attention to
Vietnam and what was going on.
At the time Gary was drafted, about 50 others were also drafted but he did not know them
because he was so much older than they were. Most of them were right out of high
school. (36:42)
Many of these men wanted to see some action so they transferred to Vietnam.
The weapons that he worked with in Germany were like a bulldozer with a cannon on the
front. (40:31)
Germany had many other American military posts in the area. (43:02)
�
Each post had a different mission, such as infantry posts and artillery posts. They also
had supply and ordinance posts.
The weather was similar to Michigan, except no snow. Winter would have lots of rain.
(46:38)
Gary would have served anywhere his country needed him to, but is thankful he was sent
to Germany instead of Vietnam.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WermuthG1526V
Title
A name given to the resource
Wermuth, Gary (Interview outline and video), 2013
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wermuth, Gary
Description
An account of the resource
Gary was born near Ithaca, Michigan and later attended Michigan State University. He graduated from college with a degree in mechanical engineering in 1965. Gary received his draft notice in January 1966 for the United States Army. He was sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training and later attended communications school at Fort Gordon. Gary was stationed in Germany for 18 months and served with the 6th Battalion, 10th Artillery, Headquarters Battery located in Bamberg.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jansma, Samantha (Interviewer)
Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-05-29
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f63334befa6fab25e9cbd84d8ee5a7f2.mp4
7ae7939612e0a61b58a6982fe638025e
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b562aff167c1618dc2beb8556948a6e7.pdf
9494a071f8d99dcc823885be9990d188
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam
Name of Interviewee: Steve Wendt
Length of Interview: 00:18:37
Background:
Steve served in the United States Navy from the Fall of 1968 to the Fall of 1972.
He attained a rank of E4 while he was in. He was an engine repairman.
He served in Vietnam from February of 1970 to February of 1971.
He was in the Brownwater Navy, which was Navy Gunboats.
Most of his time was spent in the Mekong Delta.
He would also run secret operations in Cambodia.
The main job while on those gunboats would be to set up ambushes to catch the Viet
Cong who tried crossing the rivers at night.
He was in the Navy for 4 years.
He got married while he was in the service, and his wife had come to live with him while
he served in New Hampshire.
He had 8 duty stations: Hawaii, Alaska, New Hampshire, Great Lakes, California, the
Panama Canal (3 times), Nova Scotia, Canada.
He joined the Navy after high school. He would have been drafted if he didn’t join.
He did not want to go to Vietnam, but since he was going anyway he signed up for the
Navy because he did not want to join the Army or the Navy.
His first opportunity that he heard about the boats, he volunteered to serve on them, and
they sent him off right away.
He has been married for 39 years and has 2 children.
His summer job, before he joined the Navy, was a watchman for Michigan Consolidated
Gas Company. When he came back from the Navy he worked at a Tool and Dye Shop.
He enlisted because he did not want to get drafted.
He chose the Navy because it seemed more exciting than the others.
While he served in combat, over in Vietnam, he had been in severe combat.
Active Duty (3:00)
One of the most memorable experiences of while he was serving was when he was in
Cambodia. One day, he and the others that he served with actually caught a Viet Cong.
He got a picture of him and he was in charge of him while the VC was on the boat.
His unit did suffer some casualties. One time, there were two casualties, when an Army
helicopter shot at them.
He was told that the reason he was there was to replace someone who had been blown up
by a rocket.
In his unit, there were not many casualties beyond that. (3:40)
�
He was afraid a couple of time while he was serving. Once they had set up a little spy
station over some rice paddies. Some guys were coming and they hid in the nearby
bushes, and they walked right by.
Most of the food they lived off of was C-rations. If you lucky enough to be on a base,
you would enjoy the hot food there. They would also throw grenades into the water and
knock fish out and eat them.
Most of time, because he and the others worked 12-14 hour nights, was spent sleeping. If
you weren’t asleep, you were getting the boat ready for the next mission.
For the first three weeks when he was there, he did not have any sort of form of
communication. But after that, the letters came frequently enough. He was a good letter
writer.
In the year that he was in Vietnam, he may have called home twice.
He doesn’t remember doing much for recreation. Sometimes he and the other guys
would go to the bar and talk, but there really wasn’t much to do there.
Most of his holidays were spent at home, he planned it that way. He did spent one
Christmas on guard duty at one of the bases he was at. He remembers being very lonely.
He met his wife before they got out of high school. Jeanie would go to college while he
served in the Navy. Just before he went to Vietnam, they got engaged. And when he got
home, they had a small window of time, so they got married. (7:30)
He doesn’t remember much of when he got out of the service, but he does remember
coming home from Vietnam. None of the soldiers came home in uniform because they
were afraid of the ridicule waiting for them when they got home. Instead, they traveled
in civilian clothing.
There were no parades or congratulations waiting for you. You just came home and that
was it.
He learned mechanical skills while he was in the service. He says that he can fix almost
anything, though he did not use those skills for most of his working life up until the last 5
or 6 years.
When the war ended, he and his family were living in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He and
his wife had just bought a house and he remembers watching the news, which showed
people trying to escape the city before the communists got there.
After he got out of the service, he looked for work. He eventually ended up at a General
Motors company. They sent him to a supervisory school, and he was a supervisor on and
off, in different factories for about 30 years.
He has two very close friends. One was from high school, which had joined the Coast
Guard. He sees him regularly. He did have another friend he made while in the Navy.
And he would also have another friend who would marry his wife’s best friend.
His wartime career did not contribute to his working career until the last 5 or 6 years of
working.
He is a member of the American Legion, a veteran’s organization, but he does not attend
any meetings or clubs.
Although he has not gone to any reunions, he does receive a letter and has not seen one
available to go to yet. Otherwise he would like to go. (11:30)
�
Next is shown a showcase of all the medals and awards given to him while he was in the
service. If you were at a ceremony or something like that, you would wear the full
medal. If you were just out on duty, you would just wear the ribbon.
One was for good conduct, three or four were from the Vietnam Campaign, one is for a
special merit award for a secret Cambodia operation, one is for Navy Marksman.
There is also Vietnamese money in the case as well. This money has no value on the
world market.
You were not allowed to have real money while in Vietnam. Instead you would have to
use a special certificate.
One of his first missions was to help get a ship ready that would star in the movie Tora!
Tora! Tora! The ship had just been painted and he had helped prepare the ship.
In the early spring of 1971, America was given permission by Cambodia and Vietnam to
assist the Vietnamese who were told to go back to Vietnam from Cambodia. All the
refugees were told to leave, and the VC and the Communists were trying to kill them as
they went home.
His job was to patrol the rivers and help the Vietnamese people get home safely.
Other Memories (15:00)
While he was in Pearl Harbor one night, and one of his jobs was to give cable to Japanese
ship that no one knew was there. The Japanese ship came in under the cover of night and
they supplied them with cable and then left before anyone knew they had been there.
They figured that Americans would be upset seeing a Japanese ship there, so they had to
do it secretly.
While on his missions, he would also be through a hurricane, a typhoon in Alaska. He
would also be near the Elusion Islands, where the Russians would be everywhere around
their ship.
There would also be a day, a windy day, when he was working on a ship and one of the
officers was killed in an accident.
While he and his wife lived in New Hampshire, they took a vacation into the While
Mountains for a few weeks.
He volunteered for Vietnam, and he would not change his mind, and he would do it
again. He believes that the reasons we are there were good and he would do it again.
When he got home, his family was very supportive. But you did not come home looking
like a soldier. You had to be very worried about people attacking you because of your
involvement in the war. You came home quietly and went on to your next duty, whatever
that might be.
Most of the veterans from Vietnam will say that they are not appreciated and that they
should not have been there. But most of them are still proud to have served their country.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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WendtS
Title
A name given to the resource
Wendt, Steven (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
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Wendt, Steven
Description
An account of the resource
Steve Wendt served in the US Navy between 1968 and 1972. He did a tour in Vietnam as an engine mechanic working on river craft on the Mekong River. He went on numerous patrols and saw combat on a regular basis. His unit went into Cambodia on a number of occasions, and helped to escort Vietnamese refugees from Cambodia back into Vietnam.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Walsh, Mitchell (Interviewer)
Wendt, Jason (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-05-03
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b645bf3abefd362470b628c9ec4b8db1.mp4
1e9a31585a94ebdb5ffa2e5378931293
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/401c74d5ba43e3e2548a627f801132ee.pdf
57c5c919dace38d57e60e25e36046f16
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Vietnam War
Gene Welch Interview
Total Time: 57:54
Background
(00:12) Born in June of 1942 on a small farm in Pennsylvania
o Grew up here
o Midland, Pennsylvania
o His father was a welder, mother was a housewife but also did farm work
(00:55) Remembers working on the farm as a young boy
(1:05) Finished high school in June of 1960
o After graduating, looked for a job but knew the country was going into a
recession at the time
o In August of 1960, joined the Navy
o His father was in the Navy and felt that it was a better service for Mr. Welch,
because of his metal working background
Training
(2:25) Great Lakes Training Center north of Chicago for basic training
(3:23) Got out there by train
(3:50) Describes the first couple of days as a “flurry of activity”
(4:13) Got a physical here
(4:48) No draftees when he was here, said the army was the only group who drafted at
this time
(5:14) Says most of the guys were here to get some training for a job or to get away
from family
(5:47) Training consisted of getting up early, marching, learning how to use a rifle
o He knew how to use a rifle and a shotgun
o Did paper and bookwork as well
o Learned terminology later on
(6:35) Not a lot of emphasis on discipline, which was surprising
(7:20) Most of the guys who were training him were just a few years older
(8:00) Basic training was 9 weeks
o Decided that he wanted to go to a welding school in San Diego
(9:06) Took a train to San Diego
o Took about 4 days, very few stops
�
(9:29) The base was located on a hill
o The place he was at was a school for people who were going into jobs related to
mechanical things
o Machine and welding shops, etc.
(10:38) Arrived here in November in 1960 and noticed that people were sunbathing – he
really appreciating the weather
(11:20) 8-5 schedule
(11:40) He trained to be a welder/metalsmith
o Did a lot of sheet metal work
o Made ductwork for air conditioning, etc.
o Welding high pressure steam lines from the boilers and outside of the ship, etc.
o This was easy for Mr. Welch to learn
o There were guys from all over the country here
(14:20) In boot camp, about 10% of the recruits were black, 7-8% in the training school
o There were also people who had Italian, Greek, Mexican backgrounds, etc.
(15:31) This training school lasted about 12 weeks
o After completing this, he had a choice to go home for awhile
o Didn’t do this because he’d been home for two weeks after basic training
Overseas
(16:30) Met a girl whose father was on the USS Klondike – which was a repair ship
o This is the ship he went aboard
o The ship was about 800 feet long, 150 feet wide
Deep draft because of all the tools on board
There was a full carpenter shop
o Probably about the same size as a cruiser
o (18:13) About 600 men in the crew
(18:31) Thought they’d be in port for awhile doing repairs, but they headed out to the
Western Pacific two months later
o Headed for Japan
(19:40) Once he got on the ship, went directly to the welding shop
o Lived on the ship while they were in port
(20:41) On the way to Japan, they stopped in Honolulu
o Stayed here about 4-5 days to refuel and restock
o Got to go off the ship
o From San Diego to Japan it took over three weeks
(21:24) First stop in Japan was Sasebo
o At this time it was the largest American naval facility in Japan
�o
o
o
o
45 miles from Hiroshima
At this time, Japanese accepted Americans pretty well
Got to look around a bit
3 evenings off, had a curfew
If they stayed overnight, they had to give an address
o Interacted with natives a lot
o Had to stay in uniform at this time – had to get special permission to wear
civilian clothes
(25:16) They were organized in groups for certain jobs
(26:25) After Japan, they went to Hong Kong for a week
o This was like R&R
o Went into mainland China and wore civilian clothes
This was an area they weren’t supposed to go in – Kau Lung
(28:24) Went to the Philippines next; Subic Bay
o Here for a couple of months
o They stayed on the ship and sometimes went off base into the town
o There were lots of bars!
o They were here during election time and couldn’t leave the base for a few days
during the election
(30:10) While in the Philippines, they got warnings about how to behave around the
natives
o Some people were in trouble and got sent home for getting into fights
(31:12) Mr. Welch said that if he had a choice, he would have stayed long term at
Sasebo, Japan
o The natives there were not so aggressive as the Filipinos
o He liked the Filipino natives but said they could be hard to live with
(31:44) Came back to San Diego after the Philippines – total time about 6 months
o This was about 1962
(32:27) After getting back to the US, he got a job as a dishwasher, then a bartender, and
then got an apartment (was still in the Navy and doing these things on the side)
o Some of the barmaids wanted to be his roommates
o He got arrested for “running a house of ill repute” (not exactly the case)
o Two weeks later he got transfer papers to go to an oiler ship in Long Beach
(34:00) The civilian jobs were at night
o This was a common thing for people to do at this time
(35:18) Life on the oiler was much different than on the Klondike
o Oiler spends a lot more time at sea because their job is to refuel other ships
o Went back to Japan
�
o Filled up in San Pedro and refueled ships on the way over to Japan
A lot of this was practice
Constant training
(36:33) He was directly part of the refueling as well
(38:02) On the oiler ship, they never spent more than 4-5 days in port except for San
Diego
(38:11) Went from Japan to Taiwan, stayed there a few days, filled up with oil
o US had a contract with Taiwan to buy oil at this time
o Then they went to the coast of Vietnam
(39:07) October or November of 1962 was when they arrived at Vietnam
o They got shot at near the south shore of Vietnam
o Near the DMZ
(42:54) He was on the coast of Vietnam for no more than two days
o Refueled in Japan and went to the Philippines, then to Hong Kong
(43:35) Went to Hong Kong first, remembers that there were lots of women who
painted the ship for them
(44:31) Got orders to go to South China Sea and refuel Australian ships
o These were the roughest seas he’d ever seen
o Lost footing in the waves and at one point he was washed overboard – the rope
was too long
o Did lots of pitching and rolling
o This was towards the end of his tour
(47:20) Remembers having a cable break on the Chemung (oiler ship) and it took off a
guy’s leg
(47:58) Remembers getting offers to reenlist towards the end of his tour
o Got a small pay raise offer
o Considered going into underwater welding but he couldn’t do it because he had
a few fillings in his teeth
o Had two years in active reserves left
Home
(49:20) Got back to the US in late 1963
o Before this, they wanted to rebuild the Chemung, so they had it in dry-dock
o Mr. Welch participated in this
(50:49) Stationed at Long Beach and got out in July of 1964
o Had an apartment on shore after he was married
(51:50) Got a job in California doing metal work
�
o Stayed at this company for a few years and then took his Navy experience and
went to a refinery in Southern California for 22 years
(52:26) Lived in California until 1989
o A few years earlier, he had the idea to move because of political and economic
problems
o Moved to Bellingham, Washington for 11 years
o In 1999 they decided to move to Michigan, his wife’s family lived there
It was 2000 when they officially moved
(55:00) He says that his time in the Navy taught him a lot about discipline even though
they weren’t really strict about it
o Still had a sense of what was right and wrong, etc.
o How to be careful
o He said he’d do it over again
o Would recommend it to young people
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WelchG1330V
Title
A name given to the resource
Welch, Eugene (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Welch, Eugene
Description
An account of the resource
Gene Welch was born near Midland, Pennsylvania in 1942. After graduating high school in 1960, he decided to join the Navy. Mr. Welch received his basic training at Great Lakes Naval Academy, and then went to a training school in San Diego to specialize in welding and metal working. He worked on the repair ship USS Klondike and the oiler USS Chemung. He made cruises to Japan, The Philippines, and Hong Kong on both of them. After returning to the United States in 1963, he was stationed at Long Beach for another year while the Chemung was being overhauled.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Navy
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-10-17
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d0cb2907a2087eec45964545ed8d7bf.m4v
b9a7fc1abd447ac96c371bd1ca89db96
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d194ab301d2a28956ae2a08f407137e.pdf
8faa7b97822c7429ebfe0f82b126d8c2
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Joyce Washburn
Career (Vietnam Era-Gulf War Era)
44 minutes 56 seconds
(00:00:37) Early Life
-Born in October 1949 in Grand Rapids, Michigan
-Grew up in Grand Rapids on the north side of the city
-Father was a paint contractor and her mother worked as his secretary
-Attended Creston High School
-Graduated in 1967
(00:01:13) Boyfriend's Service in Vietnam
-Her boyfriend in high school, Dennis Lobbezoo, enlisted in the Marines in spring 1967
-Began training in July 1967
-It was expected that young men would either go to college or join the military
-He also loved his country
-Deployed to Vietnam in mid-December 1967
-Stationed near the demilitarized zone
-Part of Echo Company, 2nd Battalion, 26th Marine Regiment
-Served in Da Nang, Khe Sanh, and Con Thien
-Wounded at Khe Sanh and was sent to a hospital ship
-Rejoined his unit in March 1968
-He was killed in action in June 1968
-She wrote him two to three times a week
-She was attending college in Grand Rapids
-Called home during lunch to see if she got a letter from Dennis
-Talked about their future together and their plans
-He would tell her that he was okay and would be home soon
-He didn't talk about combat or his living conditions
-When he was killed his parents were told first, then they told her parents
-In a way, she knew that it was coming
-They had planned on getting married when he returned from duty
-Difficult time for her after he was killed, but kept going to college
(00:06:45) Enlisting in the Naval Reserves
-Joined the Navy Reserve in May 1968
-Promised Dennis that she would finish her bachelor's degree and finish things for him
-Felt that joining the Navy Reserve was her way of finishing things
-Joined the Navy Reserve with the intention of becoming a corpsman
-Meant she would get the chance to treat wounded Marines
-Way of coping with Dennis's death and staying in touch with him, spiritually
(00:08:06) Basic Training
-Went to basic training in August 1968
-Sent to United States Naval Training Center, Bainbridge in Maryland
-Had a special program for training women
�-Didn't know what to expect going into the Navy
-Most women did clerical work, but she wanted to be a corpsman
-Approved for that training after she completed basic training
-Basic training was incredibly intense
-Wanted it to end, but when it was over she was sad
-Got up every day at 5 AM
-Got dressed, made sure their beds were made properly
-Most of training consisted of classes
-How a uniform should look and how a locker should be arranged
-Swimming classes and water survival training
-Learned how to use their pants as a flotation device
-Marched a lot
-Learned about rank and who to salute
-Had female drill instructors
-Wasn't much screaming or yelling at the recruits
-Drill instructor was there to encourage and guide them
-Trained with only 16 other women and they were all Reservists
-Came from a variety of backgrounds
-Some were also in college
-Remembers one girl who was from Montana
-Oldest woman was 27 years old
-Basic training lasted 10 weeks
(00:12:33) Naval Hospital Corps School
-After basic training she went back to Grand Rapids and continued with college
-In summer 1969 she reported to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois
-Received hands-on training
-During the fall of 1968 and the winter of 1969 she took classes in Grand Rapids
-Went to the Navy-Marine Reserve Center on Wednesday nights
-Studied mostly with other male corpsmen, and only one other female corpsman
-Got a lot of attention from the men, but they were also protective
-There was an officer that was basically sexually harassing her
-The male staff would give her jobs to get away from the
officer
-The school was co-ed
-At the end men went to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina for Field Medical Training
-At Great Lakes Naval Station she received medical training
-Taking a patient's pulse and temperature
-Recognizing the symptoms of diseases and how to treat them
-How to take medical notes for hospital records
-Similar to being a licensed practical nurse (LPN)
-Learned how to give shots, take blood, and make diagnoses
-Learned how to treat combat wounds
-Went to the hospital and treated men wounded in training and in Vietnam
-Trained by nurses and higher ranking corpsmen as well as some doctors
-Most of the corpsmen at the hospital were women
-Male corpsmen were in Vietnam, on ships, or on coastal bases
�(00:17:48) Relationship with Fellow Soldiers & Base Protocol
-Her second time at Great Lakes the protocol for soldier relationships was more strictly
enforced
-Not allowed to show public affection with another soldier
-Could be asked to present Liberty Card and ID card at any time when she was on base
-Always had to be in uniform on base
(00:18:54) Anti-War Protests
-She was at Grand Valley State University for her junior and senior years of college
-Noticed a lot of anti-war protests
-Initially avoided the protestors then got angry about them
-Protestors wore the names of men killed in Vietnam
-Felt like the protestors were traitors
-Wasn't at Great Lakes for the 1968 Democratic National Convention Riots in Chicago
(00:20:27) Navy Career Pt. 1
-Finished college at Grand Valley State University
-Went on active duty in the summers
-After school she reenlisted and served two weeks in the summer and one weekend per
month
-Served in the Navy Reserves for 26 years
-Did four weeks one summer in two, two week segments
-Most of her service was done at Great Lakes Naval Station
-Served at the naval hospital in San Diego and in Pensacola
-Also got to serve at Bethesda Naval Hospital
-Did work at the U.S. Navy Bureau of Medicine and Surgery in Washington D.C.
-Worked on a domestic violence program
-Worked there in September 1988
-Military started to pay attention to domestic violence in the 1980s
-Worked at Bethesda in 1991 and 1993
(00:23:40) Gulf War
-Called up for service during the Gulf War, but she was pregnant at the time
-Pregnant with youngest son, so she couldn't be deployed
-Her unit was assigned to a hospital ship off the coast of Kuwait, but she didn't have to go
-Her son was born the same day the bombing campaign began (January 17, 1991)
(00:24:33) Navy Career Pt. 2
-Bethesda was an amazing assignment
-Hospital that treats the president and the political elite
-Had every possible medical technology available there
-Now part of the Walter Reed National Military Medical Center
-Does a lot of work with veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan
-Worked in the Psychological Department at Great Lakes Naval Station
-Did that after the Vietnam War was over, but before the Gulf War
-Starting to treat men with PTSD
-Unaware of psychological problems in the 1960s and 1970s
-They weren't talked about and not considered a medical issue
-Worked with men wounded in Vietnam
-Visited a wounded soldier in the hospital at Great Lakes
�-They had gone to high school together
-Felt like she was doing something to help the war effort
(00:28:15) Women in the Navy
-At the beginning of her career women were a novelty
-Allowed to be married, but could not have children
-When she was stationed at Great Lakes her husband couldn't go into her barracks
-Her barracks was for women only
-In Pensacola they had co-ed barracks
-Later in her service women were allowed to have children and not be discharged
-At the end of her career combat roles were opened up to women
-A lot of women worked in hospitals and the hospitals were less militarily structured
-Allowed women to be treated as equals
-Played on co-ed softball teams with male enlisted men and officers
-Working in hospitals insulated her from the sexism that existed in the rest of the
military
-She was part of the unit at the Navy-Marine Reserve Center in Monroe Center, Grand
Rapids
-Mostly men, but still treated like an equal
-Over time saw more women join that unit
-They were still a minority
-Still mostly did clerical or medical work
(00:32:44) Civilian Careers
-Did civilian jobs and raised a family when she wasn't on duty
-Worked at the Department for Social Services as a caseworker
-Did computer work for 10 years
-Worked as a substance abuse specialist in Lansing, Michigan near the end of her Navy
career
-Allowed her to do substance abuse rehab work in the Navy
-Got a master's degree in public administration
(00:33:52) Promotion
-She was the first woman in her unit to make the rank of Chief Petty Officer
-Went through an informal initiation ceremony at the Reserve Center
-Had another female Chief Petty Officer oversee it to make sure it was
appropriate
-Made Chief Petty Officer in 1989
-Pay grade of E-7 (similar to the rank of sergeant in the Army)
-Allowed her to go to Chief's Clubs
-More exclusivity with being a Chief Petty Officer
(00:36:10) A Memorial for Dennis
Note: Following information is in chronological order, not as it appears in interview
-Three or four years ago she participated in the Reading of the Wall Ceremony in D.C.
-Reading the names of the men and women on the Vietnam War Memorial
-After that she continued to leave notes on Dennis's profile on the memorial's
website
-A year and a half ago she was approached by a Dr. [Edward] Byrd who was making a
memorial for Dennis
�-Dr. Byrd had treated Dennis on the hospital ship when he was wounded
-They became friends during that time
-On Dr. Byrd's last day in Vietnam he learned that Dennis had died
-She and Dr. Byrd worked together to find a location in Grand Rapids for the
memorial
-Memorial is now at the Steelcase Library, Pew Campus, Grand Valley State
University
[see also interview with Dr. Byrd in this archive]
-The memorial gives her a sense of closure
-Feels like Dennis has been brought back home
-Dennis was sponsored by a local baseball team as a local hero
(00:41:32) Reflections on Service
-Had wonderful experiences
-Made a lot of friends
-Didn't really realize she was a veteran until after she was out of the Navy
-People thank her husband for his service
-In return he makes sure people know Joyce is a veteran too so they can thank her
as well
-Learned a lot about medicine while in the Navy
-Taught her how to work with people which helped with her civilian jobs
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-27_WashburnJ1734V
Title
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Washburn, Joyce Skinner (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
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2015-02-19
Description
An account of the resource
Joyce Washburn was born in October 1949 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She enlisted in the Navy Reserves in May 1968 and received basic training at U.S. Naval Training Center at Bainbridge, Maryland in August 1968. She returned to college then went to Naval Hospital Corps School at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois where she learned how to be a corpsman. She stayed in the Navy Reserves for twenty six years working at the hospitals at Great Lakes Naval Station, San Diego, and Pensacola. She also got to work at Bethesda Naval Hospital and U.S. Navy Bureau of Medicine and Surgery in Washington D.C. During her time in the Navy Reserves she helped with domestic abuse programs, drug abuse programs, and psychological trauma programs. After her service she helped a fellow veteran, Dr. Edward Byrd, with the creation of a memorial for her fiance, Dennis Lobbezoo, who was killed in Vietnam in June 1968.
Creator
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Washburn, Joyce Skinner
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Type
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Text
Moving Image
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
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video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f25a7cd92c186c9b1995429b7d63bd40.mp4
74ae454f93f40c82e2e1864426c5dc8d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b5cfa220b4bff244a822128f502674b7.pdf
904298a7a37816b4bb194edc6fa033eb
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam
Interviewee: Jack Ward
Length of Interview: 00:28:57
Background
Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, on December 14, 1949.
His father was an Army Air Corps veteran. He was a bombardier and navigation systems
tech on B-29 Super fortress. He served in WWII.
His mother would stay at home while his father was at war. They are both deceased now.
He has one sister, who is 5 years younger than him.
He graduated high school in June of 1968, from Kentwood High School.
He had a week off after high school before signing up for the draft. The next day he was
being sent off to Fort Wayne, Detroit for his physical and induction.
He entered the service by volunteering for the draft. It is considered to be enlistment. He
would sign up for two years.
He did not know that it was considered enlistment until he read it in Parade magazine.
He wanted to join either the Marines or the Army. He figured he had a better chance to
get into aviation if he joined the Army, so he did.
Training (3:15)
After the physicals and inductions were completed, they were put on a bus for an allnight ride to Fort Knox, Kentucky.
When he got there, he would have to take a couple of tests for placement purposes. This
would take a couple of days.
He would then start his basic training with Company B-19-3.
After the completion of his basic training, he would be at the mercy of the Army to place
him where he would go next. Had he signed up for 3 years he would have got to choose
where he would go and what he would do for specialized training, but he had only signed
up for 2 years.
He expected to be put in the infantry, which he would have been fine with, but he ended
up being placed in the mechanical side of things and would work in repairing helicopters.
He found adapting to military life fairly easy. When he was in high school, he was told
what to do by his athletic coaches, so he knew how to follow orders.
He really liked his training. He really enjoyed the field training they had to do, like
learning how to shoot machine guns.
Active Duty (5:15)
After training, he would depart from his home in Grand Rapids on December 12, 1968 to
Chicago, then by airplane to San Francisco, and then was placed in a cab to Oakland, CA.
�
He would be housed in the Oakland Army Depot. He remembers the bunk beds there
were 6 or 7 high and he was on the very top. After about 3 or 4 days in Oakland they
were shipped out, at night, to Travis Air Force Base in the San Francisco area.
There he would be put on a commercial air liner and be flown to Hawaii. They would
only be there for 2 or 3 hours for refueling and would then go to Guam.
From Guam, it would be a non-stop flight to Bien Hoa, Vietnam. It would be north of
Saigon.
From Bien Hoa, he would be taken to the 89th Replacement Company. He was housed
there for about a week, until they figured out where they wanted him to go.
He remembers them telling him that he would probably end up in Pleiku, also known as
“Rocket City.”
He would then get on a cargo plane and be flown to Pleiku. He remembers landing there
and hearing all the things about it, but it turns out he was at an Air Force Base there.
There was a swimming pool, a PX, real building in construction. There were also paved
driveways and grass and flowers. He thought he had it made.
Unfortunately, the Army guys were sent to their camp, Camp Holloway, a few miles
away.
It took a while to get there and it was nothing like the Air Force Base at Pleiku.
He was never on the front line. In fact, there never really was a front line. The closest he
ever got to the front line was when he had to go out at night to serve in his defensive
positions on the perimeter on Camp Holloway.
Vietnam was not scary during the day, but at night it was. The Viet Cong, in his area
particularly would like to fight.
It was a series of flares, mortars, and rockets coming in. They had gunships out on the
perimeter trying to suppress them. This was happening pretty much all the time.
He did not see any heavy combat, as he was a mechanic. But when he did, he would
mostly fire his weapon into the tree line or at muzzle flashes.
It’s not like in the movies where they run out in the middle of a field and then get shot.
They were a lot smarter than that. Neither side would expose themselves needlessly.
He remembers the casualties he saw were things of a stupid nature (10:25)
For example, in the early morning they had taken “bloopers” which were M-79’s he
thinks, to a training camp. They were not gone an hour before they had to go back
because one of the instructors shot a grenade straight up in the air. It would come back
down and cause a lot of casualties.
He remembers having to pick them up and take the injured and dead to the hospital.
He would see a lot of his own casualties as well. A young man would join in 1969 as a
co-pilot, and after his first or second day in he would go out on a mission and come back
with an NVA 51 caliber round right through the head. There wasn’t much left of him.
Since he got out in January of 1970, he hasn’t heard from anyone who he served with.
It’s not like today where you go over in a company with a bunch of guys you know. You
go over by yourself and you come back by yourself. He learned to depend more on
himself more than other, so he did not make any lasting friends.
He would get in trouble while staying in touch with family and friends back home.
There was plenty of time to write letters back home and he did not have a girlfriend, so
he only wrote home to his family, which was his mom, dad and sister, and his grandma.
�
He would be so tired after working 12-14 hour days and then have to work 2 hours on, 2
hours off in defensive positions; he would sometimes go a month and a half or two
months without writing a letter.
His mother or father, he could not remember which one, had contacted the Red Cross to
make sure that he was still alive because they hadn’t heard from him in so long.
He got called into his CO’s office and got it from him. He had to sit there and write a
letter to his family back home and had to promise his CO that he would write one letter a
week, which he did the rest of the way in.
He would bring some civilian clothes with him, though he did not know if he would ever
get the chance to wear them. He could not wear them off base, but in certain time he
could on base.
He would also bring his mitt and ball with him, along with a few other guys. He would
play catch 4 or 5 times a week. He would also shoot some hoops, as they had that
available to them too, though not anything like in the US. He would also jump rope for
fun as well.
They soldiers would also have PT exercises they had to do in order to stay in shape.
Everyone that was there, whether it was Marines or Army would get a 7-10 day R&R.
(15:45)
There were 8-10 destinations that you could choose from to take your R&R. The closer it
was to Vietnam, the sooner you could go. The farther it was, the longer you had to wait.
He was only interested in Sydney, Australia.
Most of the married men would go to Hawaii and meet up with their wives. Most of the
single guys would go to Bangkok or Japan because it was closer. He wanted to go to
Australia because he wanted to see what it was like.
He would have to wait 10 months before he took his R&R. Between December 1968 and
the middle of October 1969, he had not had any time off. So he learned how to work
hard and not complain.
Eventually he would make it to Sydney and he would really enjoy his time there.
He would serve his 12 months, plus a 1 month extension and would leave in the middle
of the war.
When he got out he would go from Pleiku to Da Nang at a marine barracks there for a
couple of days before getting shipped on a commercial airliner to Japan. A lot of the
wounded soldiers would be shipped to Japan, so many of the men on the plane were in
pretty bad shape.
He would spend the night in Japan and then go home to Fort Lewis, Washington, where
he would be discharged from the Army, in the middle of January in 1970.
Post Duty (18:40)
In 1973, when the conflict ended, he was fully civilianized and not thinking about the war
so much at all. All of the people he knew went in ’67-’69, when the heat of the war was
at its most. So he did not hear much about it.
He had received his training as an airline transport pilot and was working in Grand
Rapids as a pilot when he heard about the end of the combat in Vietnam.
�
In 1975, when the war officially ended he had bought his first house, he had just got
married and was a chief pilot for an airline service.
When he left Fort Lewis, he had a non-stop flight to Chicago. When he got to Chicago,
he had just missed his flight back home to Grand Rapids so he had to spend the night in
the terminal building.
He didn’t care. He was so happy to be home and alive that he would have stood on his
head for 12 hours if they told him to.
At the time, the only way you could fly home for free is if you wore your uniform. You
could not put civilian clothes on and show them an Army pass and go for free.
While he was waiting for another flight to Grand Rapids, he would sit in the waiting
terminal. Each time he would sit by a group of people, they would leave five or so
minutes later. It didn’t bother him, because he was so happy to be home, but he did
notice that people did not want to sit by him.
When he got to Grand Rapids, his dad had come to the airport with an 8 mm camera but
he was so happy that his son was home that he couldn’t hold it steady. So the videos
were everywhere, it was pretty comical and they all got a good laugh out of it.
He was met by his mother, father, sister and his grandmother at the airport.
Adjusting to civilian life was rough at first.
He took a couple days to go see his friends, which was great.
He was eventually invited to a party down at Western by a girl named Sue Miller. She
was cute so he went.
He really stuck out like a sore thumb at this party, as he was tan and had no hair. It being
the middle of January, he really stuck out. And people knew where you had been. When
he got there, he had a run-in with a lady in the parking lot for a parking space, but that
was no big deal.
He was only at the party for about 10 minutes before he left. He could tell that besides
her, no one really wanted him there. It didn’t bother him. He knew he wasn’t welcome
there, so one he went. She would call the next day to apologize for her friends’ behavior.
(24:50).
A group of his friends would go to a sand dune in Grand Haven, just before the 4th of
July. They had hiked up the sand dunes and laid out some blankets to relax. When it got
dark, he had heard firecrackers that had been lit by another group of people nearby. It
sounded just like an AK-47 and he freaked out a little bit.
His friends, who had not served, got a good laugh out of it. He would laugh with them,
and that was the end of that.
He always felt that after the experience of serving, he felt he could handle anything.
Consequently, he doesn’t let things get him down and once in a while he would get in the
dumps, but it would be nothing compared to his time in the service.
What he learned from the service was to be self-sufficient. He would also learn that
training and education are important, but you need them both, or they mean nothing. He
would also learn out to deal with people that he would work with the rest of his life.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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WardJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Ward, Jack (Interview outline and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ward, Jack
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Ward enlisted in the US Army in 1968. He trained as a helicopter mechanic and was sent to Vietnam in 1969. He was stationed at Camp Holloway, outside of Pleiku. He spent most of his time on the base because of his assignment, but endured regular mortar and rocket attacks, and took turns manning the perimeter, where the Viet Cong would often make trouble at night.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ward, Samuel (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-10-05
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d9ca59d6e3de41560d0b446ea31f3702.mp4
2439866a7b981544072b312179257fbd
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4429351d16ef981e64700ec45c7b209.pdf
e629d2c9472d392d292257f456d780d9
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Vietnam War
Bob Wallace Interview
Total Time: 1:24:54
Background
(00:11) Born in Plattsburgh, New York
(00:30) Played football, baseball, a bit of basketball
(00:50) Dad was a prison guard at the state prison, mother was an RN
(1:05) Went to a Jr. College in upstate New York
o Took forestry
(1:20) After two years, went to University of Michigan
o Conservation and water pollution
(1:48) Went to the Peace Corps in 1964 before getting degree, then got degree in 1966
(2:50) Through the Peace Corps, he went to Nigeria
o Assigned to write Game Laws
o He was in the first group in Peace Corps who weren’t teachers
o (3:27) Learned the language of the area he was going to in Nigeria, 260
languages in Nigeria total
(4:35) Mentions that after Vietnam he worked in US Customs, and when he got a
Nigerian from the same area on the phone, he talked in his language, Ibo, and the guy
was surprised, thought of him as his brother
(5:43) He was trained in Nigeria for 3 months
(6:53) When he got to Nigeria, noticed it was disastrous, many animals eaten
(7:50) Didn’t like how the British left the colonies – no help with setting up government
or anything
(8:20) Mr. Wallace’s job was to establish the Teak and Mahogany trees
o (9:00) Reestablished plantations that were there
(9:30) He noticed the Nigerians didn’t think white people went to the bathroom, they
looked surprised when he asked where to go
(10:50) Got back to the US, finished degree
Drafted
(11:15) Got a draft notice that told him to report to Albany
o Lined up, physical, etc
o Counted down the lines: “1, 2, 3, Marine…”
o He wasn’t a Marine
�
(12:00) Mr. Wallace was drafted in April of 1968
(12:10) Received Basic and AIT at Ft. Dix
(12:23) While he was in Basic, he was asked if he wanted to go to OCS, he said yes
(12:54) Went to Ft. Benning, Georgia
(13:21) He enjoyed the training, 26 at the time, most of the guys were 18-22
(14:00) Enjoyed rifle shooting
(14:15) Thought that Vietnam would be over soon, and tried to delay things as much as
he could
(14:29) Went to Ft. Polk as a training officer
(14:47) Offered to go to Jungle School in Panama
o Also enjoyed this, reminded him of Africa because of jungles and map reading,
etc
(16:16) Jungle School was about a month
(16:32) After that, they flew to Charleston, South Carolina and took a C-141 to Travis Air
Force Base
(17:07) He was on his way to Vietnam at this time
(18:40) Flew from Travis to Anchorage, to Okinawa, then to Saigon
Vietnam
(18:55) After getting off of the plane they went on a bus with caged windows because
they were afraid of people throwing grenades at them
(19:15) Went to SERTS training, remembers getting a little red pill that showed a dentist
where they hadn’t brushed their teeth
(20:01) Learned about booby-traps
(20:58) This training was for the 101st Airborne Division, to which he was assigned
(21:28) Flew to where 101st was, the unit was coming back from A Shau Valley
o Landed on a highway, introduced to company
o He was very nervous and scared
o The Sgt. In his platoon was Sgt. White, who was very good
o (22:23) Went up to Sgt. White and told him how he felt, he told him not to worry
and that he’d get him through it
o Anytime he had a decision, he would tell Mr. Wallace about it
o (23:33) Sgt. White was there for 2-3 months when Mr. Wallace was there
(24:04) Assigned to Charlie Company, 1st platoon leader, 2/506 Infantry
(24:21) Went back to Camp Evans, stayed there 3-4 days
(24:41) Flew up to the edge of the DMZ, Mai Loc, combat assaulted out of the DMZ
(25:10) Between 20-40 helicopters in the air
�
(25:36) Remembers children asking for candy, but really writing helicopter frequencies
on their arms
(26:22) There was a priest giving out communion, and Sgt. White was giving out whiskey
(27:10) It didn’t make sense to Mr. Wallace that he was praying to the same God the
people he killed were, puzzled about war
(27:34) “Religion is a zero for this year”
(28:42) The most striking thing in his whole year there was when they landed on an LZ,
saw a US soldier being dragged by others trying to get him on a helicopter and a soldier
who was pulling him turned around to respond to someone and his head exploded
(29:57) Standing on a mountain top, watched F-4 phantom jets, as he looked, a piece of
one of the bombs bounced off of his helmet
o (30:40) Remembers the piece being beautiful, stress lines made it all different
colors, so he put it in his pocket
o (31:03) A week later it was rusted because of the sweat from his uniform
(31:30) The NVA would strike and run
(31:47) Says the Vietnamese soldiers didn’t get credit, they lived off of what they could
carry, US soldiers lived off of what the helicopters could bring in
(32:10) Mr. Wallace carried 18 magazines for an M-16, everyone had to carry 50 rounds
for a machine gun, but he carried a couple hundred rounds, carried a couple extra
batteries for the RTO, smoke grenades, C-rations
o (33:10) He was the only one who enjoyed C-rations
(34:07) Used to pick branches from the trees, brought back different samples of wood
because of his background in forestry
(34:33) Mr. Wallace says if you have to be there (Vietnam at the time), it’s good to enjoy
something of it
o Said most of the time it wasn’t bad
o Notices how he rested on the good times he had
(35:22) In his platoon, he had about 25,which was pretty good
o (35:55) People coming in all the time, leaving for R&R, appointments
o Lucky to have 25 most of the time
o Believes smaller was better because in the jungle trying to move was easier
(37:10) Thought it was better to be shot at, at least once a week so the whole unit is
exposed to gun fights
(38:31) Sometimes he went 2-3 weeks without being shot at
(39:19) He felt safer in the field, thinks that staying a few days in the rear took away a
bit of your sense of being in the field
(39:55) His unit was really close
�
(40:08) Knowing where you were was very important
(40:45) Sometimes to let the others in his company know where he was, he’d shoot a
white phosphorous round in the air
o This was helpful because some guys had no idea where they were
(41:40) After being pulled out of DMZ, they got to spend a few days on Eagle Beach
(42:30) On Christmas Eve, he and the guys in his unit decided to build a hut
o (43:18) His commander called it a “Gypsy camp”, and then Mr. Wallace’s
nickname was Gypsy
(43:44) Afterwards, they went to many fire bases
(44:55) After being in the field 6 or 7 months, he decided to go on his R&R
o (45:07) Went to Australia, when he came back, his unit was hit near [Firebase]
Ripcord
o This was near the beginning of the Ripcord operation
o He was asked to go down to Graves Registration and get the names of the bodies
o (46:10) He couldn’t identify who was black or white because of the blood and
sand
(47:37) Was told he would be going to Ripcord
o Next morning around 5:30 they started, nice clear morning
o They got to the top without fire or anything
o (48:10) Once they were up to the top, digging, there was an explosion from a
hand grenade
o They were also hit with mortar rounds
o (48:56) Believes Captain Vazquez saved many lives by what he did
o Very impressed with Captain Vazquez, this was his 2nd tour in Vietnam
o Vazquez was his company commander
o (49:40) His whole company was on top of Ripcord and they were fortifying the
position
(49:53) They were on Ripcord for about a month
o At the end of the month they combat assaulted out and went to another
firebase
o Then afterwards, he got his job in the rear
(50:18) Once he got transferred to the rear, he had 7-8 months in the field
(50:35) The policy was usually 6 months in the field, then to the rear, people with higher
ranks stayed longer, Mr. Wallace didn’t necessarily think it was fair
o (51:30) Didn’t see how he was more of a target than the machine gunner
o To identify him as lieutenant, it wasn’t easy
(53:35) The guys he was with, he would do anything for
�
(54:00) When talking about a battle after Ripcord on Hill 902, he felt sorry he wasn’t
there
(55:00) Mr. Wallace thinks he knew more about this RTO’s wife that he served with than
he did, when talking about the relationships between soldiers
(55:30) When talking about a fellow soldier who died, describes the low feeling he had
when they talked to him about giving the guy a medal
o It felt like they were trying to make it right when the guy gave “the ultimate”
o (56:27) “You don’t do it for your country, you do it for the guy who’s next to
you”
(57:20) He mentions when talking to his wife, he said his life went downhill after
Vietnam even though he was successful
o (57:42) Believes that was the peak
(58:10) His job with Brigade after being taken out of the field consisted of being on the
radio with every battalion and company; they called him and asked for resupplies, etc.
(1:00:20) He never in the field saw ANY drugs
o (1:00:58) In Camp Evans, yes, that’s why he didn’t like it
o (1:01:40) Didn’t want to be in the rear and be overrun
o (1:02:45) He believes the guys in the unit wouldn’t have stood for that
o (1:03:05) It wasn’t a problem until he got home and heard people talking about
drug use there, to Mr. Wallace, it was the opposite
(1:03:25) Was told not to wear his uniform when he left Ft. Lewis [on return from
Vietnam] because of the way people responded to Veterans
(1:03:31) Remembers if a car backfired he would get on his hands and knees because of
a natural reaction from being in Vietnam
(1:04:23) Racial make-up of his company: 6 or 7 blacks, but everybody was one
(1:05:30) He wonders if certain people don’t show up to reunions because of beliefs that
it was a “white man’s war”
o (1:06:40) Mentions that he lives in Canada
o Talks about how there is racism there as well, but others don’t believe there is
o (1:08:10) Believes if others were on the outside looking into the United States,
they would like their country more
o (1:08:40) Believes these things are of human nature
Going Home
(1:08:55) Took off from Da Nang Air Base, says that it was quiet, and as soon as the
plane lifted off, everyone started yelling from excitement
(1:09:36) Flew to Kona Air Force Base in Japan, then to Seattle
o Got medevaced at one point and lost shoes he had been issued
�
o (1:10:25) Got shoes replaced but didn’t have money with him, flew out
o 10 years later, got a bill for $8.25 for shoes
o Never got any money from Vietnam, called about it
o (1:11:45) Got a check eventually for $80 some, including interest
(1:13:20) He had a two year military career, he just wanted to get home
o Did what he was told, but didn’t go looking
o (1:14:12) There was a rumor that if you wanted to live and go back to the states,
get with Lieutenant Wallace
o (1:15:45) Knew he wouldn’t be a career officer, but knew he would spend some
time at home, and then go back as a company commander if the war continued
o (1:16:30) Knew he would have been rifted
(1:17:35) Ended up with a job in US Customs
o A lot of the guys who got into US Customs were former officers who had been
“riffed”, demoted to enlisted rank
(1:18:00) He got enjoyment out of a bad situation by collecting things
o (1:19:10) Remembers writing Tricia Nixon a letter on her birthday
o (1:19:32) Got a letter back from her
o Often wrote to celebrities and different companies
(1:20:19) At Ft. Lewis he got 30 days of leave
o (1:20:55) Really liked Ft. Polk, asked to go there, nobody else requested it
o (1:21:36) Became company commander of about 300 Vietnam Veterans that
were going to get out of the service soon
o (1:22:07) Mr. Wallace had to sell them savings bonds, also to bail them out of jail
o (1:22:47) Did this from September 1970 to February 1971 then got discharged
(1:23:11) When he was in Vietnam, he got some sort of foot fungus, but told them there
was nothing wrong so he wouldn’t have to stay
(1:23:25) Mentions that they used to get letters from school kids, so he stopped by the
school
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WallaceB1281V
Title
A name given to the resource
Wallace, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wallace, Robert
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Wallace was born in Plattsburgh, New York and studied at a Jr. College in the state as well as University of Michigan. Mr. Wallace spent two years in Nigeria through the Peace Corps before finishing his degree. He got drafted in April of 1968. He received basic training and AIT at Ft. Dix, and then went to OCS at Ft. Benning, Georgia and Ft. Polk, Louisiana. He also went to Jungle School in Panama. He was assigned to Charlie Company as 1st platoon leader, 2/506 Infantry, 101st Airborne Division. Throughout his time in Vietnam, Mr. Wallace collected things such as branches from trees and it made the situation enjoyable. He did not experience many bad fire fights; they sometimes went 2-3 weeks without being shot at. Mr. Wallace's company went to Firebase Ripcord for a month and helped build its defenses. He had a rear job after 7-8 months in the field in which he communicated with every battalion and company regarding supplies.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
McGregor, Michael (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-10-06
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9107cdcaa9a3971f67aabaadf2047db5.mp4
9a1c226f17f1446622986308f613e78f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/566ba5c1d2e5401b785187a662ad69c6.pdf
1278f3cffbbdff50da8c62b2f6128dc3
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Al Walker
(1:41:54)
(00:30) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
Al was born in Pontiac, Michigan on August 17, 1949
His father worked for GM and his mother did assembly for Pontiac
He remembered business slowing down in the 60s as many moved out of town to
Waterford Township
He had worked at an attendant nurse in a state hospital after high school
Al then became a cadet in the police department
(3:35) Drafted in 1966 [67?]
•
•
•
There was much social unrest and protests going on in the town
After one round of riots, many young African-American men, including Al, were drafted
Al had his induction physical and then went to Fort Wayne in Detroit, Michigan
(7:55) Fort Knox in Kentucky
•
•
•
•
•
•
This area was pretty laid back, with many men in civilian clothes and drinking beer
There was not yet any organized training, but they were sent to a different part of the fort
and it was much different
Al’s previous police experience did not help him with the training
He felt like he was surrounded by many people that did not want to be there
There were some that were from the National Guard that were able to go home after
training
There was much physical training, working with weapons, marching, and guard duty at
night
(12:25) MOS: Armored Reconnaissance
•
•
•
•
•
Al became specialized in armored reconnaissance
They traveled to New Jersey, Washington, and then to Alaska
They left the US for Japan, via Guam, and then to Vietnam on civilian aircraft
Vietnam was very hot and there were many different people walking around with
weapons
At night there were many sirens, rocket and mortar attacks
(23:00) Reconnaissance
•
Al went on many missions at night, becoming a “tunnel rat”
�•
•
•
They would find the enemy in tunnels and even some Chinese people, which he had not
expected
There were many “booby traps” in the jungle to watch out for
The Vietnamese set up many traps and mines at night and the Americans had to adapt to
doing much of their work at night
(29:40) Additional Tunnel Training
•
•
•
•
•
There was a big class sitting in bleachers
They were brought into actual tunnels and told that they often contained snakes and
scorpions
There was an area near Saigon that was full of many tunnels that made up a huge network
There were even tunnels directly under their base
The tunnels were used to transport troops and supplies, to instigate attacks, for living
quarters, and for hospitals
(40:20) The Civilian Population
•
•
There were many Montagnards in the highlands people who not Vietnamese and who did
not get along with them
They were very primitive and got along better with the French and the Americans
(43:40) Snipers
•
•
•
Sometimes snipers would arrive on helicopters
They never could tell the men their missions, but they were suspected of coming to
assassinate important village leaders
Al and other men often had to assist these snipers
(48:50) Racism
•
•
•
Al felt that most people got along and worked together in the field, but separated and
went their own ways once in the rear
Many white men grouped together and the same with black men
Some areas were still segregated, such as the showers and bathrooms
(53:50) R & R
•
•
•
For entertainment, some areas contained make-shift bars
Others would travel to Saigon, Bangkok, or Hawaii; Al went to Hawaii
Yet once in Hawaii, some men would just take another plane back to the US and become
AWOL
�(57:10) Reasons for the War
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
The men were not exactly clear as to the reason for the war and what their objectives
were
Al often questioned why he was there
He did not like fighting , but would do whatever it took to just get back home
He is still trying to learn the purpose of the war and dealing with why he had to fight
The men were told that they were liberating the people from communism and helping to
spread democracy
Al was in Vietnam from September of 1969 to September of 1970
The time helped him to build character and a strong work ethic, helping him look more
towards the future
(1:06:00) After the Service
•
•
•
•
•
•
Al began working as an officer in the Police Academy
He now wishes he would have spent some time relaxing and took a break from working
During the war, it was really hard to be proud of being in the military
Al was harassed in the US when he wore his uniform and preferred to wear his civilian
clothes
He feels that soldiers today get much more respect because of the problems that occurred
during Vietnam
The Army did not do much to help people re-adapt to civilian life
(1:13:30) Pontiac Police Force 1973-1990
•
•
•
•
•
Al had to first earn his associates degree from Oakland University
Only about 10% of the officers were black
He was working patrol, on major crimes such as suicide and homicide, and then became a
detective
Al retired early in 1990 after two heart attacks
He became restless and began some electrical work for a while, and then finally retired
for good
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WalkerA
Title
A name given to the resource
Walker, Alford (Interview outline and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Walker, Alford
Description
An account of the resource
Alford Walker, of Pontiac, Michigan, was drafted into the Army in 1967. Before being drafted, he remembers business greatly slowing down and much protesting and civil unrest. Al went to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for basic training, and then to New Jersey, Washington, and then Alaska before going overseas. While in Vietnam, Al went on many reconnaissance missions at night and also worked with the underground tunnel network built by the Vietnamese. After his time in the service, Al worked for the Pontiac Police Force.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
African-American soldiers
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-03-20
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4