1
12
425
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b4a971084faf2ee7e6b962d95c465e11.mp4
07b9272c14d4a44f7b7863febcfc960c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5757102578b9b5ad361ebe5065e60b6.pdf
81fd8d834a447404033012b0eb056254
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley state University
Veterans History Project
Vietnam War
Ron Zahn
(50:44)
Background Information (00:20)
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Born on December 29th 1951 in Indiana. (00:22)
He lived his childhood in a small town in the upper peninsula of Michigan. (00:40)
Ron’s parents were retired farmers. (00:55)
Before going into the service, Ron did much of his work on farms and also trapped animals.
(1:17)
He had little knowledge of what was occurring in Vietnam and paid little attention to its
occurrences. (1:48)
Ron got two MIPs while in high school and was given the choice of going to jail or going into the
service. Ron chose the service in the spring of 1969. (2:15)
Ron went into the Army and signed up for a 2 year stint. (2:54)
Ron entered service in September of 1969. (3:45)
He was sent to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, for a physical. He saw people intentionally breaking digits
in order to avoid entering the service. (4:03)
Basic Training (5:02)
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Ron was sent to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, for basic training. He thought it was a little scary
(5:15)
Because Fort Campbell was full, Ron was sent to Fort Benning, Georgia. (5:55)
Basic training was physically difficult; however Ron was in better shape than most. (6:25)
Basic training lasted 6 weeks. (7:00)
Some of the instructors were Vietnam veterans. (7:32)
Next, Ron was sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, for AIT [Advanced Individual Training]. Ron was
assigned to Field Artillery. (8:11)
Ron was trained on 155mm howitzers. Ron was responsible for sighting the weapon. Ron set the
elevation of the gun by using a sight and a crank. (9:10)
The training on the gun lasted 6 weeks. (11:03)
Ron graduated AIT in December of 1969. He received orders to go to Germany. (11:27)
He was given 2 weeks leave and then reported back to Fort Sill. When he reported back the
orders were changed to Vietnam. (12:12)
The men were given another week of leave and then reported to Fort Lewis, Washington. From
here the men flew to Alaska and then to Cam Ranh Bay. (13:47)
Early Service in Vietnam (14:00)
•
•
•
Ron was scared when he arrived in Vietnam. He took note of the heat. (14:15)
Ron was then sent to Camp Evans where the 101st Airborne was stationed. (15:20)
The Battery was at Camp Evans. (15:36)
�•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
He believes that the Battery received Ron all right. He was not the only new man. (16:17)
There were 6 guns on the battery. Ron was assigned to gun number one. Ron kept the breech
clean and oiled the barrel. (16:45)
Ron began his service at Camp Carroll where the men stayed for 2 weeks. In February of 1970
the men were moved to Firebase Rakkasan. (17:25)
On the fire bases the men were subjected to mortar and sniper fire. (18:46)
The men in the battery did have to set up parameter security. The men also had their own fox
holes by the guns. (19:19)
A month later in March of 1970, the men were moved to Gladiator. (20:11)
While at Gladiator, enemy men got through the wire and demolished the ammo dump. (20:41)
The men spent about one month at Gladiator before being moved to Fire base Kathryn for 1-2
weeks then to Rakkasan again. (21:17)
Service on Ripcord (22:00)
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
The men arrived at Ripcord in mid June of 1970. The area was very frightening due to the
proximity of the jungle to the base and that other groups had been chased off Ripcord before.
(21:31)
After the engineers dug foxholes, Ron went in and dug them deeper. (24:00)
The guns often provided support for the troops around Ripcord. (25:25)
Gradually, mortar and sniper fire began showing up along with rockets, tear gas, and machine
gun fire. (25:50)
Ammunition was brought in using Chinooks and Hueys. (26:52)
The ammunition was dropped at the back of the base. The men were required to carry the
ammunition from the back to the front of the fire base. (27:19)
Ammunition often got to the base, it was the drop and going to get the ammunition that was
dangerous as this was what triggered enemy fire. (28:51)
Ron doesn’t remember sleeping in Vietnam. (29:50)
Ron’s unit did not lose any guns. However, the 105mm battery unit lost all 6 guns in July after a
helicopter crashed with ammunition on the base. (30:44)
A man got pinned in the fire and pleaded for the others to shoot him. But due to the intensity of
the fire, no man could get in close enough to do so or to help him. (32:05)
There were no casualties in Ron’s battery because of the 105 accident. But because the 105s
could no longer fire, Ron’s battery had to fire more to fill the missions. (33:02)
At this time the unit was losing officers and sergeants through indirect fire and mortars. (36:37)
There were some men that came to replace casualties, however on Ron’s gun, the men did not
want any one else on their gun, even if a man as lost. (38:37)
The men were told on the night of July 21st that on July 22nd the men would be leaving Ripcord.
The men shot off as much ammunition as they had before leaving. Ron did not think they would
be able to evacuate Ripcord. (39:10)
Men were always prepared to destroy the guns if over run. (40:24)
All 6 guns were removed successfully form Ripcord. When the men left, they were handed a
number. The numbers were used to decide who left Ripcord first. (41:15)
Ron took the second to last chopper off of Ripcord. (43:03)
The men are moved to Camp Evans. Ron didn’t know where the other members of the battery
or the guns were once he was moved. (44:41)
�End of Service (45:09)
•
•
•
•
•
There was a two week long stand down after returning from Ripcord. The men then stayed at
Rakkasan. Here Ron had his hand smashed in the breech of the gun. (45:16)
Ron volunteered to assist build a new fire base in early August of 1970. (46:30)
Ron did finish his high school education. This was before he was sent to Vietnam. (49:26)
Ron was asked to reenlist but did not want to. (49:40)
Ron spent his time after the service working as an auto mechanic and a truck driver. (50:15)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ZahnR1444V
Title
A name given to the resource
Zahn, Ronald (Interview outline and video), 2012
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Zahn, Ronald
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Zahn, born in 1951 in Indiana, served in the U.S. Army from 1969 to 1971. Ron was forced to enlist in the Army after receiving an MIP. He underwent basic training at Fort Benning, Georgia, and AIT at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, where he was trained on artillery. In early 1970, Ron was sent to Vietnam where he served in A Battery, 2nd Battalion, 11th Field Artillery in the 101st Airborne Division. His battery was based at Camp Evans, and moved around the northern part of South Vietnam, spending time at Firebases Rakkasan, Gladiator, Kathryn and Ripcord and at Camp Carroll. His battery was on Ripcord while it was under siege and evacuated in July, 1970.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
McGregor, Michael (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-10-06
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8ab030f573c52fc0fdd68e3b783b27a.m4v
9812cf0df14b559519c751212146b81c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46c449a7730033a55ebaeabd2d07f204.pdf
1123527ed915219fe36dc1c1ba1a893d
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
David Yonts
Vietnam War
1 hour 26 minutes 59 seconds
(00:00:15) Early Life
-Born in West Virginia in February 1950
-Came from a family of coal miners
-When he was nine or ten months old his family moved to Kentucky
-Grew up in Kentucky
-Attended school in Kentucky
-Met his wife when they were in high school
-Got married when she was still a junior in high school
-Got a job working with cars
-Graduated from high school in 1968
-Had a job at a Studebaker dealership in high school
-Went to work for his uncle at his uncle's Texaco station
(00:01:54) Getting Drafted
-Married for one year when he got drafted on August 31, 1969
-Wife came home from work and he told her that he had been drafted
-Given ten days to report for duty
(00:02:53) Knowledge of the Vietnam War
-Didn't know a lot about the Vietnam War
-Heard stories about soldiers coming back from Vietnam
-Knew that he didn't want to go fight in Vietnam
-Didn't know the politics of the war
(00:03:39) Basic Training
-Went to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training
-Went from Ashland, Kentucky to Fort Knox by bus
-Arrived at Fort Knox at dusk
-Greeted by a private first class screaming at the recruits to get off the bus
-Assigned a place to sleep
-Next day given a haircut, a quick breakfast, vaccinations, uniforms, boots, and clothing
-Took an entire day to get processed
-Most of the recruits were from Kentucky, West Virginia, and Michigan
-In retrospect understands why basic training was done the way it was
-Drill instructors were trying to break down individualism
-Teaching them discipline and to follow orders
-Learned not to be flip with superiors
-Taught to work as a unit
-Help each other and think as a group rather than as an individual
-Received weapons training
-Did well with rifle training
-Wonders if that led to him getting assigned to the infantry
�-Only had two or three recruits that had to start basic training over
-Some men were physically and mentally unfit to be soldiers
-Completed basic training anyway
-Majority of men were capable of being soldiers
(00:10:59) Infantry Training
-Sent to Fort Ord, California for Infantry Training
-Company commander was a Ranger in the 101st Airborne Division
-Meant that he was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division
-Training lasted eight weeks
-More physically demanding than basic training
-Learned how to rappel out of helicopters
-Received more weapons training
-Learned how to read maps
-Went through simulated Vietnamese villages
-Knew then that he was going to get deployed to Vietnam
-Went on a lot of marches
-Not allowed to go off base until the seventh week of training
-Only thing to do was to go into town and drink
(00:14:55) Assignment to Fort Hood
-During seventh week of Infantry Training he learned that his wife was pregnant
-Wanted to go home, or at least stay in the U.S. until his wife gave birth
-Talked to a chaplain who talked to David's superiors
-Granted a deferment and assignment to Fort Hood, Texas until his wife gave birth
-Worked in the motor pool at Fort Hood
-Daughter was born on May 6, 1970
-Able to talk to his wife on the phone
-Went to the PX and bought some celebratory cigars
-Same day that his daughter was born he received orders for Vietnam
(00:17:35) Deployment to Vietnam
-Given three and a half weeks of leave home before being deployed
-Got to see his wife and his baby daughter
-Felt like a part of his heart was torn out knowing he might die in Vietnam
-Took a lot of pictures with his wife and daughter
-When he was in Vietnam he sent a lot of voice recordings back to her
-Went to California and boarded a plane
-Stopped in Alaska and picked up more military personnel
-Flew to Japan
-Flew on a chartered American Airlines jet
(00:20:03) Arrival in Vietnam
-Landed at Saigon
-Went through an in-country orientation process
-Explained the assignment process
-Did it backwards alphabetically, so his name was the fifth one called
(00:21:05) Assignment to the 101st Airborne Division
-He was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division operating near Phu Bai
-Flew up to Phu Bai in a C-130
�-Gto to Phu Bai on July 1, 1970
-Received more in-country orientation
-Cultural awareness training
-Told by one sergeant to shoot first and ask questions later
-In theory, U.S. troops only shot at someone after being shot at
-In reality, if you waited to shoot you would probably get killed
-Got assigned to Alpha Company of the 2nd Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment, 101st
Airborne
-He had already received air assault training in California, so he didn't need to go through
SERTS
-Note: SERTS: Screaming Eagle Replacement Training School
-Joined Alpha Company on July 7, 1970 at Camp Evans
(00:24:35) Siege of Firebase Ripcord Pt. 1
-Note: Since July 1, 1970 the North Vietnamese had been attacking Firebase Ripcord
-On July 8, 1970 he went into the field to join Alpha Company
-Boarded the third helicopter out of Camp Evans that day
-Told that he would be dropped off at Firebase Ripcord and A Company would go
there
-Couldn't go directly to A Company because they were in a firefight
-Remembers the countryside going from green and vibrant to brown and war torn
-Thought the firebase didn't look too bad
-Immediately assigned to a foxhole on the perimeter with three other soldiers
-The three other men had been in the field and told him the situation
-Heard a lot of small arms fire around the bottom of the hill Ripcord was on
-From July 9 - July 23 (fall of Ripcord) they were under siege
-He never got into the field
-Assigned to a bunker on the perimeter at night
-First night on the perimeter he didn't sleep
-Set out land mines at night
-The next day they were turned around so the explosion would go toward the
bunker
-North Vietnamese had gotten that close without being detected
(00:30:13) Firebase Ripcord-Details
-Ripcord was on the top of a hill
-Tactical operations center (TOC) was at the top of the hill in the middle of the
hill
-Artillery batteries surrounded the TOC
-Farther down the hill was the perimeter consisting of bunkers and foxholes
-Each bunker was 20 to 30 feet apart
-Perimeter was 30 feet away from the bottom of the hill
-Bunker dugout was the size of a king size bed
-Wood made a roof over the dug out
-Sandbags went on top of the wood
-Each bunker was manned by four men
-A trench went out to a collection of foxholes in front of the
bunker
�-Called the bunker the "house" and the foxhole "his porch"
(00:33:30) Siege of Firebase Ripcord Pt. 2
-Bombardment of Ripcord got more intense as July went on
-Heard movement beyond the perimeter
-Ordered not to fire because it might be American soldiers and not Vietnamese
-Took a lot of mortar fire
-His bunker never took a direct hit
-A lot of shells landed around his bunker though
-Later in July they took more small arms fire
-Had a nearby bunker that served as their latrine
-Couldn't go to the bathroom without worrying about getting hit
-Only went if he absolutely had to go
-Got resupplied by helicopters during the siege
-Helicopters would fly in, quickly drop off supplies, then fly out as fast as they
could
-On July 18, 1970 a Chinook helicopter was shot down and crashed into an ammunition
dump
-If the hill was a clock, the helicopter crashed at 3 o'clock and he was at 7 o'clock
-Initially thought a B-52 accidentally bombed the firebase
-Ordered to stay in his bunker and stay down until all of the ordnance had cooked
off
-Learned to stay aware, understand that he could get killed, and to look out for himself
-Heightened security and put two men on watch instead of just one man
-Noticed more Cobra gunships operating around Ripcord
-Escorting the "Loach" recon helicopters onto and off of the firebase
-On the morning of July 21 things got even worse
-Started to seriously consider that he might not survive the battle
-Bombardment got even worse
-Late on July 22 they saw more enemy movement
(00:41:55) Fall of Firebase Ripcord
-On the morning of July 23 he actually saw North Vietnamese soldiers beyond the
perimeter
-On July 23 he received word that Ripcord was going to be evacuated and destroyed
-Upset that they were just letting the firebase fall rather than stand and fight
-Saw Lieutenant Colonel Lucas get mortally wounded by a mortar shell
-Throughout July 23 men were getting pulled off the hill
-Told that the bunkers to the left and right of his would go first, then his bunker would go
-Had to decide the order of men in his bunker to get evacuated
-Pulled straws and he was the third man to go out
-Still doesn't know if the fourth man made it out
-Had to leave all of his gear and personal possessions behind except for his rifle
-Boarded a helicopter with two other combat capable men and two wounded soldiers
-Remembers the gunners laying down suppressing fire as they took off
(00:48:22) Regrouping & Going into the Field
-At Camp Evans learned that Alpha Company had been hit and lost a lot of men
-Received more replacements
�-He tried to help the new replacements adjust to Vietnam
-He was supposed to be a squad leader, but got assigned to the M60 machine gun instead
-Didn't want to be on the M60 for too long because it drew too much attention
-Once A Company had enough men they returned to the field
-Pattern was this: go to the field, make some contact, then retreat from the field
-Didn't understand why they retreated from the field
-Learned later that the U.S. was pulling out of Vietnam
-Became the radio-telephone operator (RTO) for Captain Chuck Hawkins
-Called in rations, medical evacuation, and supplies for the company
-Hawkins explained that the Army didn't want a repeat of Ripcord
-That's why they didn't stay in the field for too long if they made contact
-Assigned to be the RTO for a new company commander
-He told David that if he stayed in the field two extra weeks he would make him
sergeant
-Declined because he didn't want to risk getting killed
-After Ripcord, A Company took 10 to 15 casualties
-Some of them were accidents
-Remembers one new man from the Industrial Midwest (Illinois, Michigan,
Indiana, etc.)
-David tried to watch over him and protect him
-Landed on an old landing zone
-Never should have used an old LZ
-Most likely being watched or booby trapped
-David got off the helicopter and ran down to the tree line
-New man followed him and tripped a land mine
-Killed instantly
-Only found a boot and his glasses
-Army listed him as missing in action (MIA)
-Angered him because the man was dead, not missing
(00:59:32) Life after the War Pt. 1
-As of 2015, despite hardships, he and his wife are still married
-Had four children
-After the war had a quicker temper and his family went through a lot because of his
PTSD
(01:00:40) Interactions with the Vietnamese
-While in the rear they could go into Phu Bai, so he saw some Vietnamese civilians
-Had a Vietnamese interpreter known as a chu-hoi
-Meant that he was a Viet Cong soldier that defected to South Vietnam
-Didn't interact with many civilians
-At the time he hated all of the Vietnamese, but now he regrets feeling that way
(01:01:55) Reflections on Service Pt. 1
-Has no desire to return to Vietnam or see the remains of Firebase Ripcord
-Doesn't want to relive the war
-Also doesn't want to step on an unexploded land mine near Ripcord
-It wasn't always bad in Vietnam, there were some good times
-Feels that sometimes you just had to laugh to deal with the stress
�(01:02:55) Downtime & R&R
-Got to see Bob Hope in Phu Bai
-Men from the field were allowed to sit in the rows closest to the stage
-Thankful to Bob Hope for doing those shows for the troops
-Saved his R&R for the end of his tour in Vietnam
-Able to see his wife in Hawaii
-It was a good R&R
-Got to spend a week together
-Difficult to leave his wife again
-Took some comfort in the fact that the war was coming to an end
-Drank a lot when he was in the rear
-Refreshing to go on R&R, but strange to go back into the field so quickly
(01:07:25) Leaving Vietnam & End of Service
-Left Vietnam on June 15, 1971
-Told he'd be placed in the inactive reserves because he had less than six months of
service to do
-Flew from Vietnam to Japan to Alaska to Washington
-Outprocessed and discharged in Washington
-Given a ticket to fly home to Kentucky
-Strange to think only a week ago he had been carrying a rifle in Vietnam
-Told to travel in civilian clothes to avoid harassment
(01:09:26) Treatment of Veterans Pt. 1
-Son served in the Army for 20 years
-Deployed to Iraq three times
-Made sure that every time his son came home he had a big welcome home party
-Didn't want his son to go through what he did upon coming home
-When he came home he was ostracized by the public for being a Vietnam veteran
-One woman accused him of killing children
-Blames some of the harassment on other Vietnam veterans
-They came home and talked about raiding villages and executing civilians
-As a result of that, people thought all soldiers did that
-For most veterans it was difficult to get a job
-Fortunately he still had a job with his uncle at the Texaco station
-Only 21 years old when he came home from Vietnam
-Barely old enough to vote and buy alcohol
-Treated like a war criminal despite being so young and not being a war criminal
-People asked his wife why she stayed married to a Vietnam veteran
(01:12:52) Life after the War Pt. 2
-Continued to work with cars after he came home
-Eventually got a job at an Oldsmobile dealership
-Moved to Florida in 1982 and worked for a dealership there
-Started his own car repair business in Florida
-It was successful and he sold it
-Went into used cars sales
-Owned a used cars lot for 12 years
-Helped with a friend's security business
�-Had a contract with a hospital
-Got him a job at the hospital as the security director
-Led to him getting interested in medicine and becoming a nurse
-Hospital paid for him to go to Nursing School
-Got into a motorcycle accident in 2007 and retired from everything after that
(01:15:14) Readjusting to Civilian Life
-Worked 70-80 hours a week
-Didn't understand why he worked so much until after the motorcycle accident
-Realized that he worked so much to distract himself from the war
memories
-Got treatment for PTSD through the VA
-Took a year of classes with other Vietnam veterans
-Advised to file for PTSD compensation and Agent Orange compensation
-70% physical disability and 30% psychological disability
-Diabetes, neropathy, and hypertension from stress and chemical
weapons
(01:19:36) Reflections on Service Pt. 1
-Sees the Vietnam War getting repeated through the Iraq War and the War in Afghanistan
-Government's reluctance to compensate those veterans for their sacrifice
-Politics getting in the way of giving treatment to veterans
-Believes the psycholoigcal effects of Vietnam will continue for years, if not generations
-The indirect effects will last for the spouses and children of veterans
(01:23:05) Treatment of Veterans Pt. 2
-Has just started wearing a Vietnam veteran cap
-Still gets negative reactions from people, but it has gotten better
-Actually receives thanks from people
(01:24:24) Reflections on Service Pt. 2
-Leadership abilities
-Respect for people
-Accountability for his actions
-Would serve again if called and would go to Iraq with his son if he could
-Willing to fight for the country and rights if necessary
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_YontsD1886V
Title
A name given to the resource
Yonts, David (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-08
Description
An account of the resource
David Yonts was born in February 1950 in West Virginia. He grew up in Kentucky and on August 31, 1969 he was drafted. He received basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky and infantry training at Fort Ord, California. Due to his wife being pregnant he was allowed to serve at Fort Hood, Texas until May 6, 1970 when he received his orders for Vietnam. He was deployed to Vietnam and got to Phu Bai on July 1, 1970. He was assigned to Alpha Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 506th Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division and served at Firebase Ripcord until the firebase fell on July 23, 1970. He served with Alpha Company until he left Vietnam in June 1971. Upon arrival in Washington in late June 1971 he was discharged.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Yonts, David
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Moving Image
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/843d83917c190866fd2267cdaca1923d.m4v
c8ad12bf18f33cd333e60ae14ed68e8f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f717ac0fb41be0e857b4a73fccefd499.pdf
7fb1b5d70378efc42152260cfa8938f7
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Vietnam War
Michael Yocum
Interview Length: (01:38:51:00)
Early Life / Training / Pre-Vietnam Service (00:00:33:00)
Born in Seattle, Washington and raised in the Mount St. Helens area
(00:00:33:00)
Joined the Air Force right out of high school; when testing to get into the military,
his test score was a seventy-five, only ten points above the lower limit
(00:00:43:00)
Only two services had jet aircraft, the Air Force or Navy (00:01:25:00)
o Yocum had high ranking relatives in the Navy and he did not want to run
into either of them and the Navy would not guarantee him what he asked
for (00:01:35:00)
o The Air Force gave him a signed contract that he would he asked for, so
long as he passed their school, which he did (00:01:53:00)
Going into the Air Force was the only way that Yocum was going to get to work
on jets because they had none of the technical schools at the time (00:02:08:00)
Signed a six month delayed enlistment but he forgot to read the final line at the
bottom, which said, “Or to the needs of the service” (00:02:26:00)
Command called the recruiter and told him to pick up Yocum and get him down
to Portland, Oregon to ship out (00:02:48:00)
o Portland was a major military processing center, everybody except Coast
Guard went through and was where recruits had their physicals and
received their assignments (00:03:01:00)
Yocum’s assignment was Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas
(00:03:23:00)
Boot camp was a lark because Yocum was an athlete and in good physical shape
and although it was a lark, there still was discipline and the men learned to be
military (00:03:48:00)
After boot camp, he want to Amarillo Air Force Base for training as a jet aircraft
mechanic (00:04:18:00)
o They also had heavy aircraft at the base and Strategic Air Command
(SAC) tried to get him to switch but Yocum said “no, he wanted fighters,
not bombers” (00:04:33:00)
o When in school, he had a contract saying that he would not get certain
things (00:04:49:00)
In training, he worked on trainer aircraft, aircraft that for some reason were not
flyable, but were good for someone to learn how to repair them (00:05:11:00)
o Some of the parts were wore out due to the number of times they had
come on and off (00:05:29:00)
o Would go through sections, beginning with a basic section – the
aerodynamics of the aircraft, and moving up (00:05:34:00)
�
o There was both classroom and practical training (00:05:54:00)
Started training on the F-80, the first jet aircraft in the Air Force inventory and he
also worked on the F-100 and the F-101 (00:06:28:00)
Completed training in Amarillo and was then assigned to Glasgow Air Force Base
in Montana, a SAC base (00:07:14:00)
o Fighter mechanics did not have good SAC appetites (00:07:28:00)
o Yocum was assigned the job of transient alert, taking care of the planes
coming into the base, i.e. non-base aircraft (00:07:39:00)
Most were fighters coming in from the West Coast headed east or
vice versa (00:07:46:00)
o The base was out of the way but a perfect drop-off spot (00:07:54:00)
o Was at Glasgow for approximately eighteen months (00:08:01:00)
o Worked twelve hours on and then thirty-six hours off (00:08:13:00)
They had to have crew that was alert and ready to go on when
needed; like a fireman, many hours of twittling their thumbs then
instant action (00:08:24:00)
o One of Yocum’s jobs was taking out the “follow me” truck and bringing
in the B-52’s drag chutes, which weighed six hundred pounds
(00:08:43:00)
o Had an excellent group to work with and they got along well
(00:09:07:00)
Then went to RAF Bentwater in Great Britain (00:09:13:00)
o Learned quickly that in Europe, when they mentioned a Sunday driver, he
moved away from the driver because it referred to a driver that could
afford to only drive one day a week (00:09:20:00)
o One time, another guy went to the beach, became too tired and tried to
return home the next day and he and Yocum went up opposite sides of a
hill and they both ended up in Yocum’s lane (00:09:36:00)
They crashed and Yocum had fourteen major fractures of the face
and lower jaw (00:09:53:00)
o Yocum was in the hospital for two months (00:10:11:00)
The Air Force had to send him to a civilian hospital because they
did not have the proper equipment on the base or the time to get
him to the better hospital at Leighton because he was so injured
(00:10:19:00)
o Dr. Gay, the surgeon who worked on Yocum, specialized in facial
reconstruction and when Yocum arrived, Dr. Gay came in to check on
another patient and ended up picking to work on Yocum, saying that he
was the doctor’s to work on (00:10:37:00)
o He had to sit on the gurney because when they would lay him down, the
bones would move, causing pain; two police officers tried to do it at the
accident site and Yocum “threw them about twenty feet” (00:11:12:00)
o Dr. Gay really put his face back together and Yocum only lost two teeth in
the accident, although because of the accident, through the years, he has
slowly lost his teeth (00:11:33:00)
�
Could not have a facial injury and he does not get into situations
that made an injury possible, including riding horses (00:11:55:00)
o The Air Force made checks on him, including sending a specialist, but Dr.
Gay would not sign off on until he believed Yocum would be safe to go
back (00:12:35:00)
The Air Force could not have gotten him the same quality of care
at Leighton because they did not have the same quality of surgeons
(00:12:51:00)
Dr. Gay rebuilt his face to the point that someone could not tell
Yocum had been in an accident and the only way to tell was to
look at pictures from before and after the accident (00:13:05:00)
o When he got out of the hospital, he was given light duty for six months
and not allowed to even go into a hanger, for fear that he might fall, so he
worked on tech orders i.e. filing the changes (00:13:19:00)
From Great Britain, he went to Maxwell Air Base in Montgomery, Alabama,
which was strictly an officer’s training base (00:13:59:00)
o Still worked transient alert, although now he had twenty four hours on
then seventy two hours off and one day off a month, meaning he had a
seven day period when he did not have to report to duty (00:14:21:00)
o Spent off time having a blast and when he was there, he volunteered for
Vietnam, but they turned him down three times before they allowed him to
go (00:14:44:00)
o The air base had a federal penitentiary on one side, so the base was locked
down several times whenever someone got out (00:15:04:00)
o Had no issues with officers and staying at Maxwell caused him to look at
officers as persons, rather than as entities (00:15:22:00)
Once a month, they had a code-seven fly into the base, a full
colonel or above, for conferences and everyone else they parked in
the “outback 40” and took care of them when they could
(00:15:34:00)
o That was the one time he saw a real F-80, who came in from Mexico with
guns loaded and rockets armed and they had to call an Army missile base
to send someone down to dearm the aircraft; the aircraft turned out to be
an original 1950’s model aircraft (00:15:55:00)
The Air Force turned down his Vietnam requests because they did not want to
have to replace him; they had somebody good and they tried to hold on to him
(00:16:51:00)
o He knew he would have to go to Vietnam so instead of being grabbed and
given non-volunteer status, he wanted volunteer status (00:17:01:00)
From Maxwell, he spent three months at Clovis Air Force Base in New Mexico
training on the F-100 aircraft and from Clovis, he went to Phan Rang Air Force
Base in September, 1967 (00:17:14:00)
Not everyone in a squadron went to Vietnam at the same time; they started with
the ground crew, then the NCOs to train the ground crew and then the officers
(00:17:41:00)
�
On most aircraft, to change a tire, they would slide the main wheel over the brake
but on the F-100, they put on the main wheel then slid in the main brake, attach
the hydraulic system, and bleed the hydraulic system (00:18:08:00)
o A main tire change on the F-100 took and hour and a quarter of work, but
when working on the F-101, twenty-five minutes and Yocum was done
changing the tire (00:18:28:00)
Taking the aft section off the F-100 to fix the engine was difficult; most aircraft
allowed the engine to drop out, but with the F-100, they had to take the tail
section off (00:18:42:00)
The F-100 was the first of the serious dedicated fighters, including afterburners
(00:19:04:00)
o Afterburners were a kick in the butt when the pilot wanted to move, but
they used copious amounts of fuel, so if a pilot used afterburners, he used
them with caution (00:19:29:00)
The crew Yocum worked with got to the point when they did an aft section off,
people thought is was a Chinese fire drill (00:19:49:00)
o Yocum’s first job was to get onto the back of the aircraft and put the
engine hanger until the others pinned the engine so it would not roll out of
the aircraft (00:20:12:00)
o Another one of Yocum’s jobs was breaking loose the four nuts that held
the aft section on and once the repair was complete, Yocum’s job was to
torque the nuts back into place (00:20:38:00)
Took three thousands foot pounds (one hundred and forty four inch
pounds to a foot pound) to torque the nuts back into place, whereas
an average car tire requires sixty to eighty inch pounds to be
torqued (00:21:01:00)
Was at Clovis to learn the F-100 and its inner sequences and to get him over to
Vietnam, where he could be working and training at the same time (00:21:47:00)
Vietnam Deployment (00:22:05:00)
Flew on a commercial aircraft leased to the military on an eighteen hour flight in
a packed 707 aircraft (00:22:05:00)
Passengers were all military personnel because Cam Ranh was the dispersal point
in Vietnam and when they deplaned in Cam Ranh, they divided up amongst the
different services (00:22:25:00)
Getting into Cam Ranh was stepping into a sauna bath; high moisture and high
heat, but he was used to it from growing up where he did on the upper West Coast
(00:23:00:00)
At Phan Rang, he was assigned to the 352nd Attack Fighter Squadron, which was
flying F-100s at the time (00:23:43:00)
o Nothing on the base except F-100s and OV-10’s, an observation aircraft
used to drop markers on Charlie for the F-100s to attack (00:23:51:00)
While a Phan Rang, five or six times, they loaded daisy cutters, a thousand pound
bomb with a sixteen foot fuse in front (00:24:16:00)
�
o The bomb would explode two inches off the ground, leaving no hole but
destroying everything above two inches for a five hundred to one thousand
foot radius from the impact point (00:24:32:00)
o Bombs would destroy anything but was used mainly to create landing
zones in the jungle for helicopters (00:24:49:00)
o One time while he was there, they had a high priority to get create some
landing zones (00:25:02:00)
They knew a North Vietnamese Army Group was in the jungle
somewhere and the Air Force ended up finding them
serendipitously (00:25:10:00)
The spot the Air Force had chosen to drop the daisy cutters was
directly in the middle of the Army Group, leaving nothing much
but a sponge job (00:25:20:00)
From Cam Ranh, he took a C-131 out to Phan Rang (00:25:56:00)
Phan Rang (00:26:06:00)
Good sized base, although today would be considered a medium sized base, with
an emergency runway built with planking at the starting of the base and a concrete
runway and taxiway (00:26:06:00)
Had three layers of fencing, each one covered with razor darts and tm wire, which
would cut through even a leather glove (00:26:33:00)
They also had Army troops at the base and they would wake up at night when the
Army stopped firing the 105s because when it was silent was when they worried
(00:26:56:00)
One of the first things the enlisted men in the squadron did was look at their
bunker and decided it was not safe (00:27:08:00)
o They sat, designed, and built a new bunker which could take a 105 round
direct hit and not collapse (00:27:26:00)
o They tore down the old bunker and proceeded to build a new bunker
(00:27:43:00)
Took two 50 gallon barrels, welded them together and filled them
with sand and on each side, they had two layers of sandbags and an
openings they filled with sand (00:27:46:00)
Covered the roof with old planking and did the same thing with the
sandbags (00:28:18:00)
Planking was a honeycombed landing strip designed to be
dropped in a place so a plane could land (00:28:32:00)
Coming under fire was not common but it happened enough to make them realize
that they needed some kind of protection (00:28:56:00)
They had a new base commander come in about four or five months following the
Tet offensive and they received a mortar hit on the base (00:29:07:00)
o At the time, Charlie did not have a base line, making it difficult to pinpoint
attacks on the base and during the attack, the new commander got on the
AM radio and gave Charlie a complete hit report (00:29:24:00)
�
o The others drove an APC down to the command center, put the
commander into it, drove the APC onto a C-131 and flew the commander
out of county (00:30:21:00)
o Charlie had no base line to attack the base, not allowing to move their
artillery and although the commander was trying to calm people down, he
just used the wrong entity to do it with, the unsecure AM radio
(00:30:57:00)
o The base was hit a more frequently following the incident (00:31:36:00)
Incoming fire was mostly mortars (00:31:41:00)
o The enemy tried rocket attacks but whenever they would launch the
attacks, the Air Force would have something hitting the launch sites and
shooting the rockets out of the air (00:31:48:00)
They could go off base from seven am to six pm (00:32:02:00)
o They had three men from New York who decided to get haircuts at 5:00
and miss curfew and all three ended up dead (00:32:13:00)
o If they were off base and it was after six, they were dead (00:32:42:00)
They had civilians working on base and if they worked on base after six pm, they
stayed on base all night and were released in the morning (00:32:58:00)
Vietnam was his best time ever in the service (00:33:18:00)
From Vietnam, he went to Mountain Home Air Force Base in Idaho and ended up
going to another tech school (00:33:28:00)
o At one point, Yocum had a disagreement with an NCO and Yocum gave
“him a physics lesson” (00:33:40:00)
They were on the second floor of a building and they did not have
landings to go down to the first floor and the NCO told Yocum to
do something non-military, which Yocum took affront to
(00:33:53:00)
The NCO kept giving Yocum bad reports and one night, he ticked
Yocum off too much and Yocum leaned him over the side of the
staircase then slammed him against the wall (00:34:10:00)
o A week later, Yocum was in another tech school (00:34:33:00)
Every base came under attack during the Tet Offensive (00:34:51:00)
o The enemy had tunnels between the second and third row of fencing out
(00:34:55:00)
o First row was the base perimeter then thirty feet out was the second fence
and another thirty feet out was the third fence (00:35:02:00)
o The army forces defending the base dropped a mortar round directly into
the tunnel (00:35:25:00)
Everyone was on high alert for all the entire Tet season, meaning sixteen hour
days on the line, not including personal time (00:35:37:00)
o Normal day was twelve hours a day, six days a week, although sometimes
they went up to fourteen (00:35:58:00)
o They would get exhausted but would be refreshed by the day off
(00:36:10:00)
The actual attack on the base did not last long because they had 105 artillery and
the infantry and no enemy made it onto the base (00:36:28:00)
�
The enemy tried to bombard the base, but this was before they had the base line
(00:37:16:00)
o They had an Army construction unit on the base, which fixed any
problems to the point that the enemy could not tell what had been repaired
and what had not (00:37:22:00)
o They knew that Charlie sent people in on base as workers but there was
not a way for them to tell where the rounds had impacted (00:37:53:00)
In thirty days, they had a turnover of the entire squadron from bottom to top
(00:38:30:00)
o They had ten days to get the bottom troops used to the situation, then on to
the NCOs and finally the officers (00:38:38:00)
o The officers did not come in with a completely green unit; the others were
not ripe, but they were not green either (00:38:57:00)
After being in the military for eight to ten years, he could not go to a place
without running into someone he knew (00:39:41:00)
o The military is a very big small town and the longer Yocum was in, the
more he knew, both jobs and people (00:39:53:00)
Was at Phan Rang from 1967 to 1968; arrived at the end of his fifth year of
service and left at the end of his sixth year (00:40:12:00)
In the 352nd, they worked with munitions people; they did not specify only doing
specific jobs (00:40:34:00)
o When the munitions people were loading the .50 caliber guns, they would
tell Yocum readings on instruments around them so that he could do
service on them (00:40:48:00)
o They worked as teams, splitting each group in half and working on two
planes at once (00:41:28:00)
o One time, some high ranking officers had to have combat time and at the
appointed time, the planes from all three bases squadrons were not ready;
within thirty minutes, the 352nd planes were locked, loaded, and moving
out (00:41:47:00)
The 352nd had a much higher performance level than the other two squadrons on
the base (00:42:19:00)
o They did not have turf, saying that only a certain man could do a job; if a
job needed to be done, then they did it what they could (00:42:21:00)
o The enlisted men decided serendipitously to work together, instead of
against each other (00:43:12:00)
o Munitions had arrived a month before the mechanics; they changed units
by months so that there was always crews on hand (00:43:32:00)
o There was nothing wrong with doing something you could do to help
someone get the job done quicker, which was the whole idea behind
working together; the work had to be done, either singly or together, so
why do more work than necessary (00:43:54:00)
o The major and the captain in the squadron allowed the men to continue
working together; there was no animosity as long as the job was being
done 100% correctly (00:44:27:00)
�
o They worked as a unit, half mechanics / half munitions to get one plane
done (00:44:46:00)
The pilots were a separate group of people; they would come in whenever the
plane was ready in an air-conditioned van (00:45:05:00)
o The ground crew would assist in prepping the aircraft, starting it,
marshalling the plane out, and sending it on its way (00:45:17:00)
o The Air Force is easier about contact between an officer and an enlisted
man but there is still a line dividing them; the two sides got along and got
to know each other, but they did not fraternize with each other
(00:45:45:00)
The officers did not go to the NCO club and vice versa
(00:46:09:00)
Normal week was twelve hours a day, six days a week, then up to fourteen hours
a day, six days a week, then seven days a week and when it really got bad, it was
sixteen hours a day, seven days a week (00:46:27:00)
o There was always at least two time period groups overlapping each other;
the new group would talk with the old group to figure out what was
happening and once everything was going well, the old group would go
back (00:46:42:00)
The planes had been built in the late 1950’s and had done their time, but Yocum
saw things that dispelled the myth that the aircraft could not do something; i.e. an
F-100 with a two foot diameter hole in the wing that should not be able to fly, but
the pilot managed to land the plane on ground successfully (00:47:12:00)
o When they had unload the equipment from it, what was left of the airplane
was hauled over to the fire pits for the firefighters to train on
(00:47:55:00)
o One time, he was running a Deuce and a Half truck to start up an aircraft
when another Deuce and a Half caught fire and Yocum attempted to haul
the plane to safety (00:48:15:00)
Another man, seeing what was happening, swung a cable and
dislocated Yocum’s ankle (00:48:30:00)
Yocum believed he was dead because they had napalm and antipersonal bombs on the plane (00:48:53:00)
They had to send someone running after Yocum to catch him
(00:49:56:00)
Yocum did things in Vietnam that under normal conditions are physically
impossible to do, including a standing high jump of twenty four feet
(00:50:02:00)
o A stray bomblet was coming towards a group and when it impacted, it did
not explode; they could hear crickets because there was nobody around,
they had all somehow gotten out of the way (00:50:19:00)
o They had twenty-four foot tall steel walls, which Yocum cleared and then
flattened his body down (00:50:43:00)
They had a pilot that they hated because he was guaranteed one main tire change
whenever he landed (00:51:08:00)
�
o One time, an enemy plane fired an HE 20 mm shell that went up the intake
and lodged in the instrument panel in front of the pilot (00:51:23:00)
o The rounds were made to explode upon impact and if the pilot landed
rough, then the round would explode; the pilot ended up landing smooth
(00:51:59:00)
o The munitions crew dearmed the aircraft, the ground crew took the canopy
off and took the seat out (00:52:39:00)
o Yocum told the men working on the instruments that they had a choice:
they could go in an disconnect all the instruments or Yocum could go in
and cut everything eighteen inches back (00:52:50:00)
The instrument panel was held in with thirty-six spring snap locks
and Yocum had to make sure that the locks did not snap, or the
round would explode (00:53:21:00)
o Yocum ended up freeing the panel, hooking wires from a crane to the
panel and getting off the plane before gingerly moving the panel out with
a wire (00:53:58:00)
o They built a thirty-six diameter sand bag pit and buried the panel plus a
quarter pound of C4; the explosion nearly lifted the panel back up
(00:54:20:00)
o When they wanted the instruments, Yocum took what was left in a box
plus a letter saying it was combat damage and gave it to supply
(00:54:43:00)
Went once to Bangkok (00:55:36:00)
Was going to go to Japan but they had an alert and they canceled all leaves
(00:55:39:00)
o They had to fly planes up near the Vietnamese border and by the time they
were done, he did not have enough time to take the R&R (00:55:53:00)
Going to Bangkok was nice because he could relax; he did not have to worry
about the bad guy being one or two chairs over (00:56:14:00)
They were always nervous when they initially left the base (00:56:26:00)
o Yocum had a pineapple hand grenade thrown into his lap; it did not go off
and Yocum is still trying to figure out how he put his body through a steelrimmed hole smaller than his body (00:56:34:00)
o With the right incentive, you could do almost anything (00:56:55:00)
o Yocum had been off-base, downtown, getting on a “putt-putt” cab to
return to base when a grenade came in, bounced once and when it hit
again, it exploded (00:57:02:00)
o The Vietnamese would take a bicycle and pack the frame with C4; three or
four pounds of C4 would go off against the wall, so that the blast would
come out into the street (00:57:40:00)
They were always in non-combat situations, although they did receive some
combat situations; their main job was to make sure that the grounds guys had
airplanes ready for them to use (00:58:16:00)
Information on the success of the mission the crew participated in was classified
(00:58:57:00)
�
o “Don’t ask, don’t tell”, even if they knew the officer; if they asked, then
the officer had to report them (00:59:01:00)
They knew quite a bit about the actual war because Phan Rang was the in-country
R&R location of the 1st Infantry Division, the “Big Red One”, as well as a base
for Australians using the B-57 (00:59:17:00)
o They had sources of information; including the military newspaper, Stars
and Stripes, and some radio programs (00:59:44:00)
o They did not know which operations they were supporting; that
information was strictly “need to know” (01:00:18:00)
Another memorable moment was when “Puff” came online (01:00:51:00)
o “Puff” was an armed C-47; an old C-47 changed into an AC-47 by placing
gatling guns transversed through the fuselage (01:00:58:00)
o At night, they could watch as a red arch went from the plane to the
ground; only every fifth round caused the red arch, indicating a
tremendous rate of fire (01:01:17:00)
Take a football field, including end zones, and divide it up into one
foot squares and within three minutes, every square would have a
bullet in it (01:01:50:00)
o The firing sounded like a buzzsaw (01:02:17:00)
o They could see the plane in action because they knew where to look; at
night, they would look in a specific area (01:02:27:00)
o “Puff” would land at Phan Rang to get serviced before returning to their
main base; one of the planes that came in was older than Yocum, the
frame had been built in 1942 (01:02:49:00)
o When they went up to the C-119 and AC’d them, they became a nasty
aircraft; when these planes came online, they gave “Puff” to the
Vietnamese to use (01:03:23:00)
The aircraft carried two 75 mm recoilless rifles in the tail, four 20
mm gatling guns, and another pair of recoilless rifles
(01:03:43:00)
The planes could attack from the side or the tail and Charlie hated
them because they could not hear the planes (01:03:59:00)
o If the planes spotted Charlie, the whole area was saturated (01:04:08:00)
o The C-119 was just coming in when Yocum was leaving but he knew
about them (01:04:18:00)
Anybody worth his salt had a hundred day calendar; as soon as he hit a hundred
days, he had the calendar up and was marking it off (01:04:31:00)
o Near the end, everybody was packing up and getting ready to go while
waiting for their replacement body and as soon as someone’s replacement
arrived, the first person left because they did not have enough bunks for
two groups (01:04:49:00)
They did the replacements in a steady enough flow so that there were no problems
(01:05:07:00)
o In the last ten to twenty days of their time, the Air Force would bring in a
group of ten to twenty guys and twenty guys from the base would leave;
some men left before Yocum and some left after (01:05:14:00)
�
o The replacements had to be trained and shown what to do (01:05:45:00)
o Yocum does not know what happened to the 352nd after he left, although
he knows that it was deactivated (01:05:48:00)
In a war zone, you were either the best or the worst; there was not mediocre
because they did not have time to be (01:06:00:00)
o The men he worked with were the best group of guys he had ever been
with and although he cannot hardly remember any of the names of the
men he served with, he does remember what they did there (01:06:12:00)
While he was recovering from his dislocated ankle, he was placed temporarily in
charge of non-powered equipment (01:06:24:00)
o The position was supposed to be temporary but the man Yocum served
under received an emergency, had to return to the United States and
Yocum stayed in the position for the rest of his tour (01:06:36:00)
o Yocum eventually got payback (01:07:00:00)
He had ordered thirty-six rolls of three inch wide reflective tape
but instead he got three rolls of thirty-six inch wide tape
(01:07:09:00)
The tape was non-returnable, so whenever someone needed to put
a number on their vehicle, they would have to barter with Yocum
(01:07:25:00)
Yocum eventually had the best spray guns, compressors,
etc., because every piece needed a number on it
(01:07:36:00)
He even ended up with a cargo container to lock his stuff
up in, when before he had just a wood shack (01:08:01:00)
o He wanted to get back to working on planes but he did not because there
was no one able to take over the position (01:08:23:00)
o They flew a man in when Yocum had forty-five days left so that Yocum
could show him the ropes (01:08:31:00)
Returned to the United States September, 1968 (01:08:55:00)
o Any time someone transferred, they had the opportunity for leave, so long
as they had the time and they could borrow time, but only up to fifteen
days (01:09:01:00)
o Yocum had been in country for twelve months without leave, so he earned
thirty days worth of leave (01:09:12:00)
o Came back and landed in Seattle and on his leave, he circumvented the
United States; did not complete the last six hundred miles of the trip,
although he completed it later when he had a new car (01:09:24:00)
Following his leave, he reported to Mountain Home Air Force Base in Idaho; he
lived six hundred miles west of the base and on a three day leave, it took him ten
and a half to eleven hours to get home (01:10:16:00)
College kids had changed their attitudes towards soldiers, thanks largely to inept
politicians (01:10:55:00)
o The one guy that Yocum thought he could trust was Walter Cronkite, but
he turned out to be one of the worst; people trusted his word and he lied,
which really upset Yocum (01:11:05:00)
�
o Yocum had to be careful when he was around college towns because the
students would go after anything military and those who went to Vietnam
paid the price and never received a welcome (01:11:35:00)
They went out and did what they had to do and the students had no
right to criticizes them (01:12:02:00)
o Walter Cronkite would cherry pick the news scenes to show what the
soldiers were doing, both good and bad, although the soldiers did more
good than bad in comparison to the news (01:12:08:00)
They helped with building schools and tried to interact with the
local people, but the news portrayed them as gunning down
everyone they saw and blowing everything up (01:12:24:00)
o Yocum felt bad for the little girl in the famous napalm photo but Charlie
was there and he always hid behind the civilians (01:12:46:00)
o They had places that they could not attack and this was where Charlie was
(01:12:59:00)
Charlie had an old temple which served as his munitions storage
but the Air Force could not attack it (01:13:05:00)
o When they stopped the B-52 raids, they had Charlie broken if they had not
stopped the raids; once Charlie figured out the Air Force would only go so
far, Charlie knew they had the Air Force (01:13:24:00)
o Presently the politicians are not micromanaging as bad as they did during
Vietnam but there is still political micromanagement (01:13:45:00)
Let the military do the job it was trained to do; if the military had
its hands tied, then they could not do the job as well (01:13:51:00)
Like World War II, the military had to go in and decimate Vietnam and then let
the country rebuild (01:14:26:00)
o They had to go in and win the war first, then go in and do the politics; do
not go in and do the politics while fighting because it would cause the
military to lose (01:15:12:00)
o He sees World War II and the veterans are not angry, the Korean war and
how the veterans were a little angry, and finally Vietnam, were the
veterans are angry because they were punished for not doing the job and
not being allowed to do the job (01:15:57:00)
o The soldiers did not have the ability to make decisions (01:16:26:00)
One thing he wishes they had back in Vietnam was the A-10 attack fighter; the
ground crews love it and the pilots love it because they are well-protected
(01:16:32:00)
Post-Vietnam Service (01:17:08:00)
Was discharged from the Air Force in 1980 (01:17:08:00)
Starting at Mountain Home, he was an aircraft mechanic and this was where he
had the disagreement with an NCO (01:17:18:00)
o Air Force policy was to separate the men, so they sent Yocum to test
school and the NCO was not allowed to reenlist because soldiers had to be
given the invitation to reenlist or they would not be able to reenlist and
they would have to request retirement (01:17:30:00)
�
o Yocum knows a man who was discharged for twenty-six years without
retirement because his son did something illegal overseas (01:17:57:00)
If a soldier’s family does something wrong, then the soldier loses his enlistment,
which was what happened to Yocum (01:18:15:00)
o Yocum fought his discharge and managed to get to Jimmy Carter’s desk
(01:18:44:00)
o He was not scheduled to be reviewed until January 27th but on the day
before Thanksgiving, he was told he only had six days to leave the base
(01:18:48:00)
From Mountain Home, he went to Germany, where he served for four years;
originally was to be three years but the after their eighteen month party, their time
was extended another twelve months (01:19:19:00)
o Was at Bitburg Air Force Base, the Air Force Base that President Reagan
flew into (01:19:56:00)
o There was a controversy because the news media portrayed the President
as he was going to lay flowers at an old SS cemetery, when in reality, he
had to go past the cemetery to even get out of the base (01:20:29:00)
o Excellent base to serve at; got to know his ex-wife, who he married and
brought over to the United States (01:20:49:00)
From Germany, he went to Griffiths Air Force Base in Rome, New York, where
Woodstock II occurred (01:21:02:00)
From Griffiths, he and his wife lost a child and so the Air Force reassigned him to
an Air Base in Spokane, Washington (01:21:17:00)
o He and his wife had another child and Yocum received orders in 1976
sending him back to RAF Bentwater (01:21:34:00)
He should have known something was wrong with the troubles he was having, but
he did not and when he found out, he exploded (01:21:47:00)
o Personal information that destroyed his career (01:21:58:00)
Post-Military Life (01:22:13:00)
When Yocum was discharged, he was angry and although he is still upset, he is
not angry because the Air Force did what they had to do (01:22:13:00)
Upon discharge, Yocum did not look for work and instead tried to get medical
because he messed his back up when he was stationed at Griffiths; he bent over
and ripped every muscle in his spine (01:22:33:00)
o Over time, the pain has gotten worse and although he does the exercises
that he can, he is limited (01:23:01:00)
o The injury makes him unhireable because he is not able to do simple tasks,
such as stand for two hours or lift his back (01:23:09:00)
o It took him seven years of non-government funded therapy to get over his
anger (01:23:47:00)
Married his second wife just before his discharge in November of 1980
(01:23:52:00)
o He did not plan to be reviewed until late January or early February of the
next year when all of the sudden, he was discharged (01:24:02:00)
�
His second wife had a job that she worked at and Yocum kept up doing odd jobs
but he could never keep anything permanent (01:24:28:00)
o Finally, in 1985, Yocum was able to go back to school (01:24:37:00)
o Normally, with the trade he had chosen, Yocum would have gone to an
electronics school (01:24:45:00)
o When Yocum graduated, the major electronics companies, including IBM,
released a lot of their experienced technicians, making it difficult for an
untrained person, such a Yocum, to find a job (01:24:52:00)
His second wife is from Michigan and her parents live around the Crystal Lake
area (01:25:17:00)
He and his wife have two sons: the oldest son has been in the Air Force for ten
years and loves it and the youngest son recently married at the time of the
interview (01:25:33:00)
Yocum is still trying a few things to work out his problems and he has to dig
through records to prove what he has claimed, including civilian X-Rays that
show he does have problems in his back and hips (01:25:47:00)
o Every so often, he hears a click and his legs become rubber because a
nerve is being pinched in his back and no signals go to his legs
(01:26:18:00)
o Yocum does not count on much anymore, which contributes to his anger
at the Air Force and although he receives a small pension for his face, he
believes that the Air Force owes him a lot more (01:26:47:00)
He learned quickly in the military that it was all or nothing and there is no inbetween (01:27:07:00)
His time in the Air Force gave him a lot of knowledge, which he tried using but
because he had no college degree, it was difficult (01:27:55:00)
o One time, he went to an interview and told the interviewer to point out
something that he needed to be more productive; Yocum went in and fixed
one of the man’s slower production lines, making it more productive
(01:28:09:00)
o The man ended up hiring a college graduate and not hiring Yocum
because he did not have a college degree; Yocum told the man off, which
turned out to not be a smart decision (01:28:46:00)
o He showed the man what he could do and that he was not a dummy, just
because he did not have a piece of paper to hang on his wall; that had been
his job in the service, to keep production running smoothly (01:29:14:00)
o He loved doing the job, but management viewed the service as a burn-out
field; he went in and either became a cinder or a piece of steel and most
become cinders (01:29:48:00)
The men were under stress because the top was always looking
down and the bottom did not like what they were doing and the
men were the center of the target (01:30:06:00)
As long as Yocum did his job, nobody knew, but if he failed,
everybody knew (01:30:23:00)
o The men did not mind the problem although they did have some men who
were afraid to make a move, lest they upset someone (01:30:33:00)
�
o Twice in eleven years, Yocum had to go to his commander, both colonels
and after doing non-verbal communication, he was told to leave
(01:31:01:00)
Presently, civilians and the media are treating the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan
better, but they are still not treating the soldiers right (01:32:13:00)
o Yocum is happy to see that when they come back, there are happy crowds
and not agree crowds, although the crowds are mostly the soldier’s
relatives; anyone that is bad is kept away; during Yocum’s time, the
people would get right into his face (01:32:19:00)
o When his son returns, people see him in his uniform and they know who
he is (01:33:01:00)
He did four years of ROTC at Central Michigan, which was a
shock because Yocum did not recommend it, although the son used
him as a source for military protocol, which gave him a two rank
increase upon his graduation (01:33:04:00)
Makes Yocum proud because until the son is ready, he will not
take the test to move up in rank (01:33:38:00)
He has seen too many men burn out to the point that they cannot
do their job (01:34:46:00)
Try to get into a good field, but do not count on the field being the same when
you get out of school (01:35:30:00)
Do not reject the chance to go to school (01:35:58:00)
o Yocum would love to go back to school (01:36:10:00)
One time, when he was in a class, the teacher made Yocum assist the other
students (01:36:66:00)
o In the military, anyone over an E-5 takes classes to learn what they can do,
what they cannot do, what they need to do, and what they should never do
and they receive this training yearly (01:36:43:00)
If Yocum ever does go back to school, he never has to take the general education
classes (01:37:14:00)
He had wanted to switch over to accounting because he liked numbers
(01:37:30:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_YocumM
Title
A name given to the resource
Yocum, Michael (Interview outline and video), 2010
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-19
Description
An account of the resource
Michael Yocum was born in Seattle and grew up in the Mount St. Helens area of Washington. He enlisted in the Air Force in the early 1960's and after serving at several bases around the world as an aircraft mechanic, he did a tour in Vietnam at Phan Rang Air Force Base from 1967 to 1968. He remained in the Air Force until 1980, serving on bases in the US and Europe.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Yocum, Michael
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Moving Image
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fae593a2da2fbb7ca50fadd1af553bac.mp4
0d6d1736690d93030db0a5c8d90d225d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2d8f37e7b70682b8a58b225a2fa14164.pdf
dccdd4a594971b6394da0f3d16750acb
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Vietnam War
James Wykstra
Interview Length: (01:32:05:00)
Pre-enlistment Life / Training (00:00:09:00)
Born in Cutlerville, Michigan in 1947 (00:00:09:00)
Growing up, Wykstra attended Cutlerville Christian School and South Christian High
School and after graduating, decided to attend community college at Grand Rapids Junior
College (00:00:20:00)
Wykstra attended junior college for a year and was not doing great and when it looked
like he was going to get drafted, he went and enlisted in the Navy Reserves (00:00:45:00)
Growing up, Wykstra mother stayed at home and his father worked at a hospital
(00:01:02:00)
o There were five children in the family and Wykstra was right in the middle; he
had an older brother and sister and a younger brother and sister (00:01:10:00)
When he enlisted, Wykstra knew the Vietnam War was going on and figured that he had
a duty to enlist and serve in the military (00:01:42:00)
Wykstra finally enlisted in August 1966 (00:01:52:00)
o He selected the Navy because he did not want to crawl around in the mud and he
wanted nice meals and a good bed to sleep in (00:02:01:00)
While growing up, a friend of Wykstra had a speed boat and Wykstra had a hydroplane,
so he had some experience on the water before he joined the Navy (00:02:20:00)
Basic training was two weeks at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center in Chicago and
then two weeks aboard a ship in Chicago (00:02:52:00)
Before he left for basic training, Wykstra wanted no one in his family to know that he
was leaving (00:03:11:00)
o Wykstra had a little party the night before he left and the next morning, he
accidentally slept through his alarm, consequently, missing his bus to Chicago,
and woke up when his mother called him to go to church (00:03:16:00)
o Wykstra’s brother had just bought a new Mustang and he drove Wykstra to
Holland, Michigan, where Wykstra was able to catch the bus (00:03:45:00)
o Wykstra finally told his family he was joining the Navy that morning and
naturally, they were a little upset that Wykstra had not tell them earlier
(00:04:04:00)
o He chose not to tell his family because he viewed it that they did not need to
know and because he was only going be gone for a month, it was not a very big
deal (00:04:24:00)
The training at Great Lakes for Wykstra was strictly for the Navy Reserves (00:04:35:00)
o The basic training went well and when Wykstra boarded the ship, he had to get
tours of it to orient himself aboard it (00:04:40:00)
�
o Some of the other men who came aboard the ship with Wykstra had already been
in the Navy and they explained different things to him and helped ease the process
for him (00:05:04:00)
o The ship was a smaller one and the men were supposed to sail it to near
Muskegon, Michigan to fire its guns; however, when the ship left port in Chicago
and made it past the barriers, it had to turn around because Lake Michigan was
too rough (00:05:21:00)
o During the training, Wykstra does not recall how much emphasis they placed on
discipline, although it was something that he always had trouble with
(00:06:01:00)
After completing the four weeks of training, Wykstra went back home and continued
going to the Reserve meetings (00:06:27:00)
o Eventually, he asked if he could go into active duty early or would he have to
complete the year of Navy Reserve first (00:06:37:00)
o They said Wykstra could get in early and he told them that the end of May,
beginning of June would work for him; however, when the middle of June came,
Wykstra still had not been called (00:06:46:00)
The Navy eventually wanted to know if Wykstra had gotten some girl
pregnant and that was why he wanted to leave early but he explained that
he just wanted to get the year done and over with (00:07:04:00)
o When the Navy told him they would get him on active duty right away, Wykstra
asked for a couple of weeks off from his work before he left, so at the end of June,
he basically quit work (00:07:16:00)
He was kicked out of the apartment he living in, so Wykstra took the next
month’s rent, bought a tent and lived on the beach (00:07:41:00)
o However, after about three weeks, Wykstra still was not in the Navy, so he went
back to his old job and asked to come back to work at a print shop (00:07:53:00)
o Wykstra only went back to work for a couple of weeks before the Navy placed
him on active duty (00:08:08:00)
Deployment (00:08:23:00)
Once Wykstra was on active duty, the Navy sent him to San Francisco (00:08:23:00)
o While Wykstra was in transit waiting to be assigned in late August, someone
woke him at four in the morning, said his father had died and Wykstra was going
home on emergency leave (00:08:31:00)
When Wykstra went down to get his orders allowing him to go home, the
man said he thought Wykstra was lying, which caused Wykstra to jump
across the desk and started beating the man (00:08:57:00)
Wykstra had to go talk with the commanding officer but he did his orders
and flew back to Grand Rapids for fifteen days (00:09:23:00)
o After the fifteen days, Wykstra flew back to San Francisco and stayed there for
another week or two before the Navy flew him to the Philippines (00:09:45:00)
While waiting for his ship, the U.S.S. Davidson, in the Philippines, Wykstra went into a
nearby town to drink (00:10:10:00)
�
o One time when he went into the town, a dog bit Wykstra in the back of his calf
and Wykstra asked the owners to tie to dog up for ten days to make sure it did not
have rabies (00:10:32:00)
o In those ten days, the Davidson had unfortunately already come in and left but
after the ten days, Wykstra checked and the dog did not have rabies (00:11:10:00)
The Navy eventually flew Wykstra to Japan to board the Davidson (00:11:46:00)
o When he got to Japan, Wykstra checked in on the base and was given bedding and
told where to go spend the night; however, as he left, they called his name for him
to come back and when he did so, they told him the Davidson was pulling out in
two hours and he needed to get aboard (00:11:51:00)
The Davidson was a destroyer escort, meaning it was a small ship, only about a football
field in length (00:12:35:00)
o The ship was armed with depth charges, missiles, two 5 inch guns and torpedo
tubes (00:12:41:00)
o Different departments on the ship had different sleeping areas (00:13:09:00)
o The ship had just been commissioned in 1965, which meant it had air
conditioning and other modern amenities (00:13:17:00)
Wykstra was put with the deck crew when he first got onboard, which consisted of:
painting, sweeping, cleaning and washing walls (00:13:49:00)
At one point, a weapons yeoman was leaving the ship and Wykstra and another man
applied for the job (00:14:19:00)
o While he was home on his emergency leave, Wykstra met a girl who happened to
be from the hometown of the weapons yeoman who was leaving, they knew each
other, and the yeoman allowed Wykstra to take the typing test three or four times
(00:14:44:00)
On the typing test, Wykstra had to type thirty-five words a minute and
every mistake was a deduction of ten words (00:15:01:00)
o Wykstra took the test three times before he finally passed it and he does not know
how the other man faired but he ended up getting the job (00:15:09:00)
As a weapons yeoman, Wykstra would type up the orders of the day, what duties the men
were supposed to do that day, and any weapon reports, which were logs of how many
shells had been fired, etc. (00:15:30:00)
o Once he had typed up the weapon reports, a lieutenant would read it, make some
slight changes, have Wykstra retype it and then would give it to his superior, who
would make other changes (00:16:04:00)
o There were no computers and would end up having the type the same report or
document around eight times at least because everyone in the chain of command
would make changes to a report (00:16:18:00)
o When they pulled into ports, Wykstra missed liberty time finishing the reports
(00:16:47:00)
o There was always something for Wykstra to type (00:17:08:00)
When he first got aboard the ship, Wykstra was told who he would report to and who
would be giving him orders (00:17:38:00)
o There was not much of an introduction or orientation (00:17:43:00)
�
o One time, while on the deck crew, one man was painting a yardarm and asked
Wykstra if he saw any holidays; not knowing what that meant, Wykstra told him
that he did not see any (00:17:49:00)
When the man came down, he yelled at Wykstra for telling him there were
no holidays, spots where he had missed, when there were (00:18:14:00)
There were a few men on the deck crew that Wykstra fell in with and got along well with
(00:18:42:00)
o After he became yeoman, Wykstra had his own little office on the ship and in
Japan, he bought turntables, speakers, and recording equipment so that when they
were at sea, they could listen to music, mainly rock and roll records (00:18:48:00)
o When they pulled into port at Formosa, the records were a dime an album and the
men came to Wykstra to play them (00:19:33:00)
Wykstra got onto the Davidson in October 1967 (00:20:13:00)
The Davidson’s home port was in Hawaii, so after Wykstra boarded in Japan, they sailed
back to Hawaii (00:20:24:00)
Wykstra did not have any major problems adjusting to life at sea even though when the
Davidson left Japan, the seas were quite rough (00:20:52:00)
o Wykstra only got seasick twice: when the Davidson first left Japan for Hawaii and
another time in rough seas, also near Japan (00:21:02:00)
The second time he got seasick, Wykstra was at the helm of the ship when
a man on the lean helm said he needed a bucket; a messenger got a bucket
and the man threw up in the bucket (00:21:21:00)
The messenger emptied the bucket and when he brought it back,
the man working the status board asked for the bucket and ended
throwing up in it (00:21:59:00)
The pilothouse was beginning to smell like vomit and the
lieutenant in charge of the pilothouse asked Wykstra if any of that
bothered him and Wykstra said “not yet sir” (00:22:11:00)
The lieutenant then lit a cigar and blew it in Wykstra’s face,
causing him to vomit (00:22:28:00)
o When the ship was in rough seas, Wykstra did not worry about it capsizing
(00:23:01:00)
One time, a cook had just made fresh donuts when the seas were rough
and he came up to the pilothouse to see if he could bring up some of the
crew (00:23:06:00)
The men held onto ropes during rough seas and the cook accidentally let
go of the rope and slid, head first, into a steel footrest and split his head
open (00:23:28:00)
When the Davidson arrived in Hawaii, Wykstra was able to go ashore (00:24:03:00)
o Although the ship was only a couple of years old, it had to go into dry-dock
because one of the boilers was not working properly (00:24:17:00)
They ended up cutting a hole in the side of the ship so they could put in a
new boiler (00:24:27:00)
o Because of the sheer size of the repair, the men were in Hawaii for quite a long
time, all the way until August (00:24:35:00)
�
However, even while the ship was in dry-dock, the men stayed aboard it,
instead of in barracks on land (00:24:51:00)
o A friend of Wykstra from high school was in Hawaii at the same time, so the two
met up and went out to drink several times (00:24:56:00)
One time, one of the men went ashore, got extremely drunk, and when he
returned to the ship, got the keys for the gun locker room; the man
unloaded guns and ammunition, went on the deck, and began firing them
before taking off (00:25:23:00)
Shore patrol went looking for him while shining large spotlights and
Wykstra friend, who was part of the Shore Patrol, commented on how
stupid it was; the Shore Patrol was looking for the man with spotlights but
if he wanted to, he would shoot them (00:26:12:00)
They finally caught the man and the others never saw him again
(00:26:34:00)
Once the repairs on the ship were finished, the ship left Hawaii and sailed to several other
locations but Wykstra does not remember them all (00:27:14:00)
o The ship would spend thirty days sailing off the coast of Vietnam then a week at
some other location, such as Bangkok, Hong Kong, Japan, the Philippines, etc.
(00:27:21:00)
When the ship was sailing off the coast of Vietnam, the men had their regular job but
they also worked in a secondary, combat role; the men would normally go six hours on,
six hours off for their primary job (00:28:01:00)
o Sometimes, Wykstra worked in the fire control room for the ship’s guns relaying
orders between the lieutenant stationed in the fire control room and the gun
mounts, everything from where to fire to how much to fire (00:28:35:00)
o Other times, Wykstra worked in the pilothouse while the ship was off the
Vietnamese coast (00:28:51:00)
o The ship ended up firing a lot of ammunition onto the shore but as far as Wykstra
knows, while in Vietnam, the ship never received any return fire (00:29:10:00)
There were times when the ship had to sail from one location to another
quickly past small Vietnamese boats; the men did not know if the boats
could possibly be filled with explosives, so they did not slow down for
them (00:29:21:00)
If a boat got in the way, the ship kept going (00:29:40:00)
At one point, the ship received orders that it had to sail for Korea as fast as it could get
there (00:29:59:00)
o When the ship arrived, the sonar picked up a submarine; the men told the
submarine to identify itself and surface but it did not (00:30:06:00)
o The ship followed the submarine for eight days before it finally surfaced and
revealed itself to be a Russian submarine (00:30:16:00)
o When the submarine surfaced, the men took pictures of it and the Davidson ended
up escorting it out of the area (00:30:33:00)
They ended up confiscating all the film taken of the submarine and the
next day, Wykstra looked out and saw a torpedo floating in the water
(00:30:41:00)
�
When divers went to get the torpedo, there were snakes in the
water, so sharpshooters were posted before the divers tried again
(00:31:00:00)
Once they got the torpedo aboard, it was placed in the hanger bay, covered
with a tarp and again, everyone’s film was confiscated (00:31:20:00)
o At the time, the men did not know why they were ordered to Korea; all they knew
was that there was trouble near Korea (00:32:06:00)
The men did not know much about what was going on onshore in Vietnam; the
commander would get the orders and the men would follow them (00:32:27:00)
o One time, the ship pulled into the naval base at Cam Ranh Bay and the
commander and XO went ashore while the ship remained anchored in the bay;
when they came back, the two men said the ship was going to pull its anchor and
leave the next (00:32:38:00)
However, the next day, the men could not raise the anchor and after trying
several different ways to raise the anchor, they finally ended up cutting it
off and leaving it in the bay (00:32:57:00)
o When Wykstra worked in the fire control room, the lieutenant in charge of firing
the guns would receive an order, then tell Wykstra what adjustments needed to be
made, and Wykstra would relay the information to the gun crews (00:33:24:00)
o One time, the men heard two secondary explosions when they fired the guns,
which made them happy, but for the most part, they did not know what their
targets were or whether they had hit them (00:33:44:00)
o When it was firing, the ship normally worked alone (00:34:06:00)
However, the Davidson was also attached to the U.S.S. Hornet, and
aircraft carrier, and at any one time, there was between four and seven
destroyer escorts and other ships with the Hornet (00:34:11:00)
Aboard the U.S.S. Hornet (00:34:55:00)
At one point, Wykstra did go aboard the aircraft carrier Hornet (00:34:55:00)
o Wykstra was having trouble swallowing, so he went and saw the corpsman, who
told him it was no big deal and to wait until the ship got into port, then the
corpsman would send him to set a doctor (00:35:01:00)
o It got so bad that Wykstra went back to the corpsman and explained that it was
difficult to talk and he could not longer even swallow water (00:35:20:00)
o The aircraft carrier sent over a helicopter, picked Wykstra up, and took him back
to the aircraft carrier, where doctor diagnosed the problem as a wisdom tooth
(00:35:27:00)
The dentist said they needed to pull the tooth, but they had trouble pulling
it because as it turned out, the tooth was hooked around Wykstra’s
jawbone (00:35:59:00)
They ended up breaking the tooth apart and taking it out in pieces; once
they finished, they took x-rays again, found more pieces, and took those
pieces out as well (00:36:12:00)
They had given Wykstra a lot of pain killers and he stayed in the dentist’s
office for a long time (00:36:24:00)
�
o Wykstra wanted to get back to the Davidson and kept complain when the dentist
staff would not let him because of the amount of painkillers they used; finally, a
messenger came down and brought Wykstra up to the pilot house, where he asked
permission from the commander to fly back to the Davidson (00:36:32:00)
The commander checked and told Wykstra that by the time they got a
helicopter ready, it would be sunset and they could not transfer personnel
after sunset (00:37:15:00)
The commander had the men get Wykstra a bunk and told him to come
back the next morning (00:37:36:00)
o The next morning, Wykstra again asked permission to return to the Davidson but
the commander said he could not; when Wykstra why, the commander explained
that the Davidson had sailed for Formosa and the Hornet was sailing to the
Philippines (00:37:46:00)
The Hornet ended up staying in the Philippines for a week and because it was an aircraft
carrier, there were a lot of benefits for the men (00:38:17:00)
o Everyday, the men were able to grill hot dogs and hamburgers, they had boats
they used to go water skiing, there were women around, etc. (00:38:29:00)
o In the Philippines, they did not want the men to go into town because it was
dangerous for the men (00:39:03:00)
When the men went into town, they could only go down the main street
and between one and three blocks in either direction off that street;
everything else was out-of-bounds (00:39:18:00)
It was basically bar on top of bar and there were enlisted men’s clubs, with
one playing country music and the other playing rock and roll
(00:39:41:00)
Off to one side would be sitting a mamma san and several girls and if a
man wanted to dance, he would go talk with the mamma san, sign his
name in, pick a girl, and dance with her (00:40:15:00)
The government paid these girls well and when Wykstra ended up
meeting a girl whose parents owned the restaurant / bar, she said
she wanted that job because it paid the most money (00:40:37:00)
o Never the less, the Navy tried to keep the men on the base (00:41:13:00)
o One time, Wykstra went ashore because he had the day off and he bought a
couple of butterfly knives (00:41:19:00)
Whenever he went into town, Wykstra walked back on the left hand side
because when he drank, he back a little loose and on the right hand side
were many more prostitutes (00:41:39:00)
This time, he saw two nice looking Filipino women who always tried to
get him to go with them and that time, he said okay (00:42:02:00)
The three ended up hopping the back of a converted World War IIera jeep and on the way through the town, they begin fooling
around in front of the other people (00:42:24:00)
They ended up in an out-of-bounds area and Wykstra followed
them back their house (00:43:11:00)
�
o After Wykstra finished fooling around with another woman
in the house, he put his clothes back on and discovered his
knives were gone (00:44:18:00)
Wykstra then looked outside and saw at least three men standing
on porch of the house; he cannot see the other side of porch, so
Wykstra decides to run and jump out and when he does so, he sees
two other men standing on the porch (00:44:33:00)
o He assumed that they were going to get him and although
they did follow him for a little while, he did eventually lose
them (00:45:10:00)
As he was walking down the street back to the base, some kids came out
asking for money, which Wykstra did not have (00:45:26:00)
The kids started throwing rocks, causing Wykstra to run again and
luckily, a Filipino cop came, causing the kids to scatter
(00:45:40:00)
Wykstra eventually made it back to the ship, but it was bad because he
should have known better (00:45:54:00)
o Before the ship had pulled into port, the men went to a little meeting, where it was
explained how dangerous it was for the sailors in the town (00:46:02:00)
There was a river that ran next to the base and the men had to cross it to
get into town; the river was filthy and kids would stand next to it, trying to
bum cigarettes and other things from the sailors (00:46:15:00)
Just before the ship arrived in port, they had found the body of a sailor
floating in the river with no head (00:47:18:00)
The next day, on the desk of the base commander was a box and inside
was the head of the sailor (00:47:26:00)
o The prostitution outside the base was really bad, although the last time Wykstra
was there, there was a female mayor and she was attempting to clean it up
(00:47:66:00)
Wykstra finally made it back to the Davidson after about six weeks (00:48:46:00)
o While aboard the Hornet, Wykstra did not have any duties and although there
were movies to watch, he was still bored (00:48:53:00)
He would sit up on the flight deck and watch planes take off and land and
he eventually helped the man who was supposed to clean the barracks
because he was so bored (00:49:03:00)
Travels around the Pacific (00:49:31:00)
Wykstra was also able to go ashore in Japan several times but he did not spend too much
time in bars there; mostly, he bought china and other items that he wanted (00:49:31:00)
Going ashore in Hong Kong was fabulous (00:49:54:00)
o When he first came aboard the ship, Wykstra hung out with the men in deck crew
who he worked with and even when he became a yeoman, he still hung out with
them because he worked in his own little office by himself (00:50:07:00)
o One time, four of them were in a bar and another man who had just been
promoted and was not treating the others fairly walked into the bar (00:50:23:00)
�
They invite the man who and he sits between Wykstra and another man;
the other men tell him that he has to start straightening up (00:51:04:00)
The man was dismissive and the next thing Wykstra knew, the other three
men were beating him (00:51:30:00)
The man who was being beaten was in his late twenties / early thirties,
meaning he had been in the Navy a little longer than the other men
(00:52:01:00)
The men warned him that if he went back to the ship and reported them,
they might go to the brig but they would eventually get out of it and they
would find him (00:52:11:00)
Instead, the man reported that he had been jumped by some
Chinese people (00:52:23:00)
o Where the men were at, the city was clean and nice (00:53:11:00)
While Wykstra was aboard, the Davidson spent seven months of the Vietnamese coast
and every month, the ship would travel someplace different (00:53:53:00)
Going to Bangkok was a different experience (00:54:09:00)
o While there, a man would hire a cab for the day, not just one trip because it was
cheaper to hire a cab for the day (00:54:20:00)
o The Davidson stopped in Bangkok after about six months, making it one the later
stops, and it seemed like everyone aboard ship “lost it” around then (00:54:40:00)
Wykstra knows of only one man who did not “screw around” with
someone, even the married men who swore they would not cheat on their
wives (00:54:59:00)
o Wykstra and a friend hired a cab for a day and went touring to different locations
while other men from the ship sort of took over a hotel (00:55:17:00)
People who actually lived in the hotel ended up leaving because of how
the men were acting (00:55:41:00)
One man was on a second or third floor balcony and decided he was going
to jump into the hotel’s swimming pool; the pool was only three feet deep
where he wanted to jump but he did it anyway and ended up hurting his
head (00:56:30:00)
The man continued to beg the others to let him leave the ship and
go ashore again, so the last day they were in city, the men relented
and let him go ashore (00:57:04:00)
The man started drinking again and decided he was going to climb
a tree and grab the coconuts in it; he had to hop a fence to do so
and ended up landing onto of a broken beer bottle and split his foot
open (00:57:13:00)
Some other soldiers at the hotel wanted to put a tourniquet on the
foot, but the sailor said no and to just call an ambulance; the man
did eventually pull through (00:57:49:00)
Morale aboard the Davidson was not bad (00:58:19:00)
Wykstra did end up getting into serious trouble once (00:58:44:00)
o While in the Philippines, he was in a bar drinking and an ensign who had just
come aboard the Davidson walked in; Wykstra had introduced himself when the
ensign came aboard, so the ensign sat with Wykstra in the bar (00:58:50:00)
�o Wykstra questioned the ensign, saying that he was an officer and was not
supposed to be in town and not supposed to be seen associating with an enlisted
man like Wykstra (00:59:12:00)
o The ensign told Wykstra not to worry about it and he continued buy drinks for
himself and two Filipino girls, although Wykstra warned him that the girls were
not drinking alcohol, they were drinking tea (00:59:24:00)
o When they got into the bedroom, the girl Wykstra was with said she was from
Manila and Wykstra said he wanted to go there (00:59:51:00)
However, no one on a ship, not even a commander, was allowed an
overnight; a sailor’s rank determined what time he had to be back aboard
the ship (01:00:08:00)
Wykstra had to be back by ten o’clock, a petty officer by eleven, and a
regular officer was midnight (01:00:24:00)
o The girl said she would take Wykstra to Manila, so they planned to meet up later
and go (01:00:38:00)
o Wykstra figured he was going to get in trouble but his brother had been stationed
in Manila and Wykstra figured he could go there then tell his brother how much it
had changed in eight years (01:00:50:00)
o When Wykstra went to the designated spot, the girl was not there, so he had a few
drinks and decided to return to the ship; however, on the way back to the ship,
Wykstra saw the girl and together, they walked and boarded a bus (01:01:11:00)
o When Wykstra and the girl got off the bus, they got into a taxi, which took them
through several small villages before stopping in one and the girl explained that
that was where she lived (01:01:48:00)
o The girl’s house turned out to be a hut made out of bamboo and while Wykstra
was sitting there, almost everyone in the village came up to see him; it eventually
reached the point that they placed him by a window so everyone could see him
(01:02:16:00)
The girl’s father was the chief of police and when they all went to bed,
Wykstra could not belief that the father would send his daughter to be a
prostitute in order to help the family (01:03:19:00)
o The next day, Wykstra and the girl went to the village’s marketplace and when
Wykstra saw kids running around the streets naked, he bought a bunch of
underwear and handed it out to the kids (01:03:52:00)
o The village mayor lived next to the girl’s family and they ended up throwing
Wykstra a dinner that all the men in the village showed up to; when the men
finished eating, the women could eat while the men drank alcohol (01:04:37:00)
The other villagers wanted Wykstra to sing, so they got a guitar and
started playing for him (01:05:52:00)
o The next day, they went to a movie before Wykstra said he had to get back to the
base and the girl had to take him because he did not know how (01:06:11:00)
o The girl eventually took him back and when he boarded the ship, an officer told
Wykstra he was in trouble, although Wykstra explained he had paid someone to
take his place (01:06:32:00)
The officer said he knew Wykstra had an upcoming liberty leave and he
suggested Wykstra stay on the ship, which he did (01:06:56:00)
�
The Davidson eventually left the Philippines and headed back to Vietnam; on the way
back to port, the commander wanted to talk with Wykstra and hear his story and Wykstra
explained that he did more than any ambassador ever did (01:07:11:00)
o The commander said he did not care what Wykstra had done, he knew better and
as punishment, Wykstra was confined to the ship for the next ninety days
(01:07:48:00)
o After going to Vietnam for another thirty days, the Davidson sailed to Hawaii,
where Wykstra was supposed to get off because his tour was ending
(01:08:16:00)
o Wykstra knew some of the men in personnel and when they typed up Wykstra’s
orders, they left off his punishment, he was supposed to go to the barracks for
thirty more days to finish the punishment, and the ship’s XO signed it
(01:08:28:00)
When he was in, Wykstra did not give any thought to staying in the Navy (01:09:04:00)
o To him, if someone wanted to stay in, that was fine but being in the service meant
that someone did not think for themselves and if they did so, they got in trouble;
the men did what they were told and Wykstra could not continue to do that
(01:09:08:00)
Wykstra never actually went ashore in Vietnam (01:09:35:00)
Off all the men Wykstra served with, he wants to know what happened to one man, who
was from Wichita, Kansas, the most (01:09:57:00)
o The man suggested when Wykstra and he get out they go and tour the United
States together (01:10:10:00)
o However, Wykstra said he could not afford it because he needed to save money
for college (01:10:17:00)
o Wykstra got out of the military in 1969 and in 1972, he and three other men did
decide to do a little tour of the country, although one guy eventually dropped out
(01:10:25:00)
They were gone for three months and when they stopped in Wichita,
Wykstra looked the man up and discovered the man had gone right to hell
(01:10:48:00)
He and another man were renting an apartment above a store and
delivering cars to car lots (01:11:03:00)
o Wykstra and the other man spent a lot of time together while in the service; they
would be paid every other weekend, after which the two men would go ashore
(01:11:51:00)
The first weekend they were in Hawaii, both men went ashore and the
second weekend, they were low on money (01:12:05:00)
If Wykstra had duty on a Friday, he would give what money he had to the
man, who would play cards and would usually win, although one time
they had to spend the entire weekend aboard the ship because he lost all
the money (01:12:23:00)
o One time, the two men went to a piano bar and one of the women there was
gorgeous; Wykstra said something to her and after her reaction, Wykstra told the
other man that they needed to go to church (01:13:31:00)
�
After church, the two men went back to the bar and the woman was still
there; Wykstra’s friend started playing pool (01:14:27:00)
At some point, Wykstra had bought a car, an old Chevy that almost always
had something wrong with it, and Wykstra managed to convince the girl to
go with him, his friend, and a man the friend had been shooting pool with
(01:14:41:00)
The four went to a beach they thought was deserted and they decided to go
skinny-dipping (01:15:23:00)
The girl was so drunk that she passed out on the way back and when the
men got her to where she had said she lived, they pulled her out of the car
and left her on the sidewalk (01:16:06:00)
When Wykstra was first on the deck crew, the lieutenant junior-grade who was his boss
did not like him and one time, ordered Wykstra to sandblast part of the deck
(01:17:19:00)
o Wykstra said he had a liberty leave upcoming but the lieutenant canceled it and
made Wykstra do the sandblasting (01:17:49:00)
Most of the time, the enlisted men and officers were kept segregated (01:19:04:00)
o Wykstra never saw an hostility between the two groups except for one time when
the ship was going into port (01:19:12:00)
The commander and XO were both in the pilothouse and at one point, the
commander told the XO to take over because the XO needed to learn the
stuff; the XO was giving the orders and the commander corrected on him
two occasions (01:19:30:00)
After the third time he had to correct a decision, the commander began
yelling at the XO in front of the enlisted personnel in the pilothouse
(01:19:53:00)
o Generally, the officers treated the enlisted personnel okay (01:20:31:00)
The officers tended to throw their weight around and on some occasions,
their decisions were questionable but the enlisted crew could do nothing
about it (01:20:34:00)
The men could definitely tell that some of the officers were career military
(01:20:59:00)
When there was a ship’s reunion, it felt somewhat awkward for Wykstra because he had
only served for two years whereas many of the others had served longer, often four years
and they were much more “gung-ho” for the Navy (01:21:25:00)
When Wykstra was nearing the end of his tour, he had the opportunity to take a test and
become a yeoman but he declined; when asked why he declined, although he would in all
likelihood pass, Wykstra explained that there had been rumors circulating that some of
the sailors might get and early discharge and if he passed the test, he would not get an
early discharge (01:21:47:00)
o Wykstra ended up flunking the test but he did not receive an early discharge
(01:22:31:00)
Had he enlisted a month earlier, Wykstra would have gotten the early
discharge (01:22:48:00)
o When the Davidson sailed back to Vietnam, Wykstra had the opportunity to take
the test again but he told the officer he was going to flunk it again (01:23:02:00)
�o When the men finally got to San Francisco to be discharged, they were waiting in
a large gymnasium when there was an announcement for all the men in personnel
and yeomen of a certain rank to stand up, but Wykstra was not high enough
(01:23:32:00)
All the men who stood ended up receiving at minimum a month-long
extension on their enlistment to help process all the other sailors’
discharges (01:24:34:00)
Post-Military Life / Reflections (01:20:31:00)
Once he finally got out of the Navy, Wykstra returned to working full time and attending
college (01:25:15:00)
o He took as many credits as he could at a local college before transferring to Ferris
State University (01:25:28:00)
o After taking the required courses at Ferris State, he transferred again, this time to
Grand Valley State University, where he took the majority of his elective classes
in law enforcement (01:26:01:00)
o Wykstra ended up with a two-year degree from the local college and a business
degree from Ferris State (01:26:42:00)
After getting his degrees, Wykstra worked as a 2nd shift manager (01:26:52:00)
o It eventually reached the point that his children would be going to school, so
Wykstra asked to start workings days, even if that meant doing less skilled jobs
(01:27:01:00)
o The company honored his request and moved him to working during the day
(01:27:31:00)
Looking back, Wykstra was glad he was in the Navy, he saw a lot of the world, and if he
had to do it again he would, but he still would not enlist for four years (01:28:03:00)
o Had he originally go in for four years, he probably would have taken the yeoman
tests and passed them (01:28:20:00)
When Wykstra left, he had a going away party at his parent’s house, who were going to
visit his brother-in-laws family; everyone knew Wykstra had the party and when his
parents got home, they found out (01:29:09:00)
o The first letter Wykstra got from his mother said that she was disappointed that he
had the party (01:30:19:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WykstraJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Wykstra, James (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wykstra, James
Description
An account of the resource
James Wykstra was born in 1947 in the town of Cutlerville, Michigan. After graduating from high school, Wykstra felt it was his duty to serve in the military. In August 1966, he enlisted in the U.S. Navy Reserves. Following completion of basic training at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center in Chicago, Wykstra returned to Cutlerville and regularly attended the reserve meetings until going on active duty in the summer, 1967. Assigned the to destroyer escort U.S.S. Davidson, Wykstra patrolled along the Vietnamese coast and sailed to numerous locales in the Southwest Pacific, including Japan, Hong Kong, Bangkok, and the Philippines.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-01-13
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/90b3022c68d9a0ba21369910a09fbee1.m4v
f8a717d58c6575186b0faa799d94edbd
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c8dc8e6b24a8d75f3566f3a880e6c1fd.pdf
bc69b24a3969107cd08e7bec509a32ef
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
James Wyatt
Vietnam War
32 minutes 15 seconds
(00:00:06) Early Life, Basic Training and Berlin Wall Crisis
-Born December 4th, 1936.
-Highest rank achieved was Specialist 4th class.
-Drafted into service.
-Knowing that drafting was inevitable, he chose to pre-empt the process and enter in
1960.
-22 years old at the time of entering military service.
-Chosen as a temporary training sergeant during basic training.
-Training: 15 mile hikes with a 40lb backpack.
-Chose other leaders from the groups.
-Encouraged soldiers as their energy waned.
-Made friends with squad leaders he worked with.
-Flew to Berlin with Military Air Transportation Service (MATS).
-Stationed in Mannheim.
-Locals were mostly friendly.
-During the duration of his time in Berlin, the Berlin Wall was built.
-Afterward the locals became noticeably friendlier to their presence. Soldiers became
more religious.
(00:05:00)
-Sent to NATO school.
-Dispersed information to troops and trained them in fundamentals.
-The Berlin Wall crisis caused extensions on the troop’s service periods.
-After his year and a half was up he was extended by a mere few days before he returned
to the US.
-Communicated with his mother often in the mail during his time abroad.
-Limited places to socialize with other English speakers.
-Attempted to learn some German.
-Due to the Berlin Crisis, there was no ability to take leisurely language classes.
-Sent out to the field much more often.
-Soviet threat seemed intimidating at the time.
-Being somewhat isolated abroad.
(00:10:00)
-His return from military life was treated by the public with some degree of skepticism and
suspicion.
-Not anger or derision like some Vietnam veterans.
-After returning home he became a police officer.
-Had an interest in the job for a long time.
-Grand Rapids police were hiring.
-Since he was from Grand Rapids he decided to apply.
�-Personally believes that the containment in Vietnam was the right thing to do.
-In Mannheim he was stationed at what was once a Panzer building.
-Remnants of the Polish army were still present at the time.
-Due to the fact Russia was present in Poland.
(00:16:10)
-Believes that Vietnam War was mishandled and hampered by political posturing.
-Cuban Missile Crisis was quite scary.
-Believes that JFK handled it well.
-Thoughts on Watergate scandal: intentions were good, but methods were not.
-The fall of the Berlin Wall was emotional and a great moment for him to view on TV.
(00:26:00)
-His brother was in WWII.
-Involved in major battles such as the Philippines
-Aboard USS Washington.
-Has a rather “military family”.
-Older brother in the service.
-Uncles and cousins as well.
-Father was in Turkey in WWI.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_WyattJ1816V
Title
A name given to the resource
Wyatt, James E (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-23
Description
An account of the resource
James Wyatt was born in 1936. At the age of 22 he pre-empted an inevitable drafting by enlisting in 1960. During his military career his highest rank achieved was Specialist 4th class. Although his service was during the Vietnam War era, he was located in Mannheim, Germany in the time of the Berlin Wall Crisis. Wyatt was also sent to NATO school where he was able to train troops in the fundamentals. After being discharged he returned to the US and became a police officer.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wyatt, James E.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Wyatt, Peyton (Interviewer)
Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Moving Image
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bd79b9c5b9a382e1cad25e63eef0d1ba.mp4
518a004e3ba621b6d7ccb90eca8ffd85
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb39d8abf117ce1a1590f29c35b68c82.pdf
160864586cbf7ec2d299df8709eac64d
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
MICHAEL WOODS
Born: Natchez, Mississippi
Resides: Alto, Michigan
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, February 18, 2012
Interviewer: Can you begin for us by filling in a little bit of your own background?
To start with, where and when were you born?
I was born in a small town called Natchez, Mississippi, and it‘s famous today for tourists
who like to tour southern mansions, and it‘s called the pilgrimage. I was born in 1943,
and my family left Natchez and moved to New Orleans when I was about seven years
old, so I grew up in New Orleans, Louisiana. I dropped out of high school in the twelfth
grade. The principal and I had a discussion on how the school should be run, and I lost.
So, I-Interviewer: Up to that point had you been doing relatively well in school or...
I played football, and sports kept me in school. The schools were in poor neighborhoods.
The idea of not being able to dress appropriately for school was embarrassing to a
number of us, so the sports kept us in school until something happened and then we
dropped out. 1:11 I tried to join the Marine Corps when I was fifteen, I came from a
very poor background, and when you live in poor neighborhoods it‘s extremely difficult
not to be in trouble. My friends were being killed just before I got there, right after I‘d
left, so I knew it was a matter of time before I would be involved in something, so I
wanted to get out of New Orleans as quickly as possible. The only escape for me, as I
could see it, was the Marine Corps; so at fifteen I went down to enlist. I had to fill out a
1
�mountain of paperwork, of course, and I had to lie about my birthday. I was caught
because I put two different dates on two different pieces of paperwork, so obviously I
didn‘t go. 1:59 As soon as I turned seventeen--Interviewer: Let’s back up for just a moment. What motivated you to chose the
Marine Corps?
My dad had been in the Marine Corps, was in the Marine Corps, and he had been one of
the longest serving black Marines at the time. He had gone through the Marine boot
camp during WWII, so he was a role model for me. My family wasn‘t together, but my
dad, I saw him twice a year, at Christmas time and during the summer, so that was the
motivating factor for me in choosing the Marine Corps. Besides, the group of kids that I
hung around with were tough kids, so that was a challenge for us.
Interviewer: Go back to seventeen.
At seventeen, if my mother signed for me I could enlist, and I talked her into signing. I
enlisted and went to San Diego for Marine basic training. From there to Marine recruit
regiment, which teaches you infantry tactics, and from there into a Marine Corps warrior
combat outfit. 3:07
Interviewer: Describe a little bit the actual physical training process. What are you
doing at these different stages and how well did you do with the different parts of it?
I actually graduated from Marine Corps boot camp as a platoon honor man. The platoon
honor man is awarded a set of dress blues by the Leatherneck Magazine if you were the
top recruit in your platoon, and I was. Coming from the segregated south, the
psychological experience of basic training was extremely challenging. Here‘s a white
guy with a ―Smokey Bear‖ hat who's in your face twenty-four seven. What I didn‘t
2
�realize at the time, of course, was it wasn‘t just my face he was in, he was in everybody‘s
face, but I took it personally, so it was a psychological challenge. Physically, I‘d been an
athlete, played football, basketball, and ran track, so it wasn‘t challenging physically, but
certainly psychologically. 4:05 At that time Marine Corps basic training was sixteen
weeks, and I think the infantry training regiment training may have been six weeks. That
was the period of time that you were away from home before you could return.
Interviewer: What did you do to sort of cope with, or deal with, the stress of that
situation you were in? I mean, being treated in this boot camp fashion. How did
you handle that?
In my platoon there were—I think we may have started out with about forty-eight
recruits. Of the forty-eight recruits there were only three blacks, maybe eight Hispanics,
two native Americans, so human argues [?], when you had opportunity, you talked to
others who were going through the same stressful situation as you were, and that helped.
5:02 Letters from home, that helped, and being put in a leadership role early, believe it
or not, also helped, and as the platoon honor man, that was the right guy position, the drill
instructors held you accountable for the behavior of others. So, there wasn‘t a lot of time
to concentrate on your situation. It was a busy time, and I‘m not sure that boot camp isn‘t
set up for—in just that manner, you know, to keep the recruit's mind off those things that
don‘t have anything to do with the Marine Corps, and you are busy twenty-four seven.
You are told when to sleep, when to eat, etc.
Interviewer: Do you think it helped to have recognition? You're being treated in
badly on one level, but somebody must have thought you were worth something at
the same time. How early did they single you out a little bit?
3
�When you initially report into the recruit regiment, you are in a holding situation until
there are enough recruits to form three platoons to start training. 6:15 One of the things
that you recognize early on is, if you are assigned the task, you are held responsible for
doing that task. If you fail, you are punished to some degree, and if you succeed, you are
rewarded to some degree. The system, in the military, though stressful and demanding,
was the fairest system that I had been exposed to at the time. I think when you look back
at that, that‘s really what you‘re looking for. You‘re looking for—where can my ability
take me? Just based on my personal ability, nothing else, just my ability. 7:04
I think
boot camp is one of those places, or the military itself, is one of those places that operates
under that principle.
Interviewer: So you caught on to that fairly quickly and then used it?
Yeah, sure—it was a matter of getting over having this guy in my face twenty-four seven,
and that didn‘t happen right away. About halfway through training you started to
understand that you weren‘t in that boat by yourself, there are forty-eight people here,
and some of them are hurting worse than I am, and they‘re not black, ok? So once you
catch on to that, then you understand you‘re being judged on your leadership qualities,
your perseverance, and your ―can do‖ attitude. Those were the people that were awarded
the promotions to PFC, and given the responsibilities.
Interviewer: So you had sixteen weeks of basic and some additional infantry
training beyond that. You did six weeks, or whatever, and that’s all in one place?
8:13
No, basic training was in San Diego, in the city of San Diego, down town. Infantry
regiment training was at Camp Pendleton, in the mountains of Camp Pendleton, if you
4
�can think of California having mountains in that area. That training was about infantry
tactics. What are the duties of a squad leader? How does a squad work as a unit of a
platoon? What is the smallest unit in the Marine Corps, which is the fire team, how does
interlocking fire work? How is that integrated into artillery fire etc? So, you go through
six weeks of that, and you are exposed to the gas chamber, and you understand that right
quick. So, it was quite different and you were treated a little bit above a recruit, and you
are now called a Marine, but your activities are still controlled twenty-four hours seven.
9:07 You did have the opportunity to have liberty. That means to go into town, and I
think of the six weeks we may have had the opportunity to do that two or three times.
Interviewer: Once you complete that course, what happens next?
Then you are given twenty days leave, so you can go back home. The experience of
leaving this training and going back to be with your buddies after this period of time is
amazing. You find you don‘t have anything in common with them any more. You find
that the things they are doing seem childish and not grown up, so you lose that
connection that you had with these friends, they‘re still your friends, but you look at them
in a different way, and you start feeling differently about yourself. You see yourself as a
cut above, maybe, and maybe that‘s arrogance, but it‘s true. 10:08 It‘s true not only
from my perspective, but form others that I‘ve shared this with.
Interviewer: You have that moment—did your family notice the difference?
Yeah, they did, but my mother thought I should still be in my ten o‘clock at night, and we
had to have a discussion about that, you know. Yeah, the difference was noticed by my
family, and obviously they were pretty proud. I graduated from one of the toughest basic
5
�trainings in the military service and I had done it with honors, so not only were my
parents proud, but they managed to get it in the local newspaper.
Interviewer: Now where did they send you next?
From there I was sent to –I‘m trying to remember—each battalion, or regiment, has a
different area of Camp Pendleton, so I went to Camp Pendleton to Delta 1-7, which is
Delta Company, First Battalion, Seventh Marine Regiment, which is part of the First
Marine Division. The First Marine Division home is at Camp Pendleton, California.
11:11 Bur there are different camps. There‘s Margarita, which is the home of the 5th
Marine Regiment, there‘s Onofre, which is where Seventh Marines were located, and
then there‘s another area for the 1st Marines, so I think I was at camp Onofre. During this
time I‘m a new recruit reporting into a combat unit, and there‘s a cycle that you must go
through, and the way that cycle works is that the guys that had just come from a thirteen
month tour, in Okinawa, or in the West Pac, stay behind to train the new recruits that
come in, and that‘s called a six-week lock on phase. Again, it‘s integrating the squad
tactics into platoon tactics, into company tactics up to battalion and regiment. So you
pull operations, combat operations against other units at Camp Pendleton. 12:04 That
lasts about six weeks during this lock on phase, and you are actually preparing to make
your thirteen-month tour overseas. Once that six-week lock on phase is over, then the
guys that stayed behind to train you are transferred out of the infantry into support units.
So, after we finished the lock on phase, I was then transferred, the whole unit, was then
transferred from the 1st Marine Division to the 3rd Marine Division, which is in Okinawa.
The company then became I Company, 3rd Battalion, 3rd Marines.
6
�Interviewer: Ok now, when you were in this lock on phase doing this six-weeks,
when you were with the returning back from overseas, what was this, 1963 or was
this still 1962? Do you remember roughly when that was?
Yeah, I said we actually left to go over to Okinawa in January of 1963 because I was
married and my daughter was born several days before I got on the ships. 13:13 We
went overseas in 1963.
Interviewer: The reason I’m asking that—when the veterans giving you additional
sort of tactical training etc., these were not really people that were combat veterans
yet, were they? They had still been on peacetime duty--had anybody been to
Vietnam by then?
No, there was a presence in Vietnam, but it was mostly Army and they were trainers
rather than combat troops. There was a term used by them, which I can‘t remember right
now. No, they were not combat troops, and I don‘t think the Marine Corps had seen
combat, maybe since the Korean conflict.
Interviewer: So, that would mean that the kind of tactics you were learning were
still conventional warfare, what would have been done in Korea or even in WWII.
That is correct. 14:01
Interviewer: All right, so now you’re sent over and you go to Okinawa. How did
they get you physically out to Okinawa?
The USS Mann, which is considered a troop transport, and at that time everyone that
went over, went over by ship, and you were part of a fleet, which was usually carriers,
battleships, and the troop transport ship. So, the whole regiment went over by ship.
Interviewer: What was that trip like?
7
�For a person that had never been on a ship before it was exciting, and it was sickening.
One of the duties—when you‘re on ship, of course the navy is in charge, but the Marines
have duties on ship. I was assigned to the laundry, and the laundry is in the very bottom
of the ship where it‘s always hot and sweaty, and steaming. On the way over you go
through what‘s called typhoon alley, so if you take this trip at a certain time of the year,
you can pretty much bet that you‘re going to hit a typhoon, and we did. 15:06 When
you hit a typhoon the ship‘s bow moves up and down in the water, and if you‘re down in
a very hot steamy area, you will learn quickly what seasickness really is. So, needless to
say, I got seasick, and I was in my bunk, and I thought I was going to die, and I was so
sick, it was the first time I refused an order. When I was told that it was time to go to
work, I said, ―I‘m not getting out of this rack‖. Well, they figured out I was sick, so I
didn‘t get court martialed or anything, and I was sick for two days before I could finally
get out of bed. So, that was a thirty-day voyage, I think, and it‘s a straight through
voyage, and after the storm, and after the seasickness, then you spend your time on ship
playing Whist, that‘s the card game of choice until you get over. 16:05 You bond
during that time, with a lot of people.
Interviewer: You get over to Okinawa, then what kind of a setup did you have
there, what kind of duties did you have?
Okinawa‘s an island that‘s about twelve miles wide and about sixty miles long. I actually
think it‘s the most populated area per square mile on earth. During that time your money
had to be converted to Yen, and there was 360 Yen to a dollar, to show you, with the way
the economy is now and how far they have come. There were no paved roads, and most
of the roads—the main road was paved, but all the other roads were dirt roads. There
8
�were areas in Okinawa that catered to white military, and areas that catered to black
military. There was only one area for the blacks and it was called ―4-Corners‖, or Koza,
Okinawa. 17:08 Koza was quite a taxi drive from where my unit was, so the idea was to
make sure the last taxi doesn‘t leave at night, so you can get back to the base before
morning. It was the first experience with a foreign culture, primarily Japanese, but they
are really Ryukyus not Japanese. I picked up a little bit of the language, enjoyed the
people, but at seventeen or eighteen you are about learning the wild side of life, so not
too much cultural experience, but certainly some. From Okinawa you will become
what‘s called a float battalion. The Marine Corps had a battalion that‘s on the water
twenty-four seven year around, and they‘re ready to hit any hot spot in the fat east, so you
are a ready battalion. 18:03 You‘re floating with the fleet and some of the stops that
you would make would be, maybe three days in Hong Kong for R&R, rest and relaxation,
you may pull jungle warfare problems in the Philippines, so you may be there for three or
four weeks, so there is an opportunity to got to the Philippines, Taiwan was another port
of call. That‘s exciting, so you‘re exposed to many different cultures. Cold weather
training at Mount Fuji, Japan, so you get an opportunity, and at the base of Fuji is a little
Japanese village called Moji, Japan, and you get a chance to pull some liberty there, and
get exposed to the cuisine, which I really enjoyed. It took me a minute to eat Sushi, and I
didn‘t find anything in Japan that I wouldn‘t try. I didn‘t particularly like seaweed, but in
the Philippines I ran into something that I couldn‘t force myself to try. 19:03 There is
what we would consider a delicacy, but they eat it on a regular basis and it‘s called a
Balut. A Balut is an embryo that‘s not complete, that‘s in the egg, it‘s buried in the sand
to mature, and the way you eat it is to crack the shell and there‘s this little guy looking up
9
�at you and you suck it out. So, regardless of how much Sake I drank, I couldn‘t bring
myself to eat that. So, that was interesting, so I tell that story quite often.
Interviewer: Did you also go to Korea, or did you not get there?
We did go to Korea. We pulled a problem in Korea as an amphibious landing, we were
there for maybe a week, but not outside of the field, we didn‘t pull liberty in any of the
towns in Korea.
Interviewer: So, you were practicing amphibious landing. Is that climbing down
into landing craft?
Yes it is, another experience, especially if the waters are rough. 20:12 You come down
off a ship on a cargo net. Now, you are fully combat loaded, at the time I think I was in
machine guns, so not only are you carrying, probably, a seventy pack, your rifle, and a
machine gun, if that‘s what you‘re doing. You are fully loaded, and as you come down
the waves bob up and down, so It‘s a possibility that you can put your left foot down off
of this cargo net and it‘s touching the bottom of the boat, but by the time you get your
next foot down the boat is down there, so needless to say, a lot of people fell off. The
boat‘s interesting because they had old life preservers that you put on. The kind that was
so big that the back of your head tilted forward. 21:02 The PT boats that you get in, the
amphibious vehicles, they circle in the water, and they have to wait until everybody‘s
loaded before they start to the beach. That‘s always good for seasickness, if not from
you, from the guy that‘s pucking on you from behind or next to you. Once that signal is
give, then to the beach you go. That can be another interesting experience, remember
you‘re carrying this heavy equipment, and depending on how far the sand barges out,
depends on how close to the beach the landing craft can get. If the sand barges out when
10
�you jump off you could be in water to your chin, or land right on the beach, and I was
always the unfortunate guy.
Interviewer: Now, were these kind of old-fashioned WWII style landing craft with
the door that drops down in the front?
Yes
Interviewer: So, you weren’t going in on tracks or amphibious vehicles?
No, this was 1963 and we were still a conventional warfare force. 22:04
Interviewer: So, did you spend a full year based in Okinawa or were you using it as
your central base and then going out? How much time do you think you spent on
the ships as a battalion at sea or in foreign places rather than on Okinawa?
I think the floating battalion phase of that tour, maybe three or four months. I don‘t
remember exactly, maybe three or four months, and during that floating phase you stop at
these different ports, Hong Kong, Korea, the Philippines and Taiwan. The time that you
spend ashore was really based on how long the operation would be. It wasn‘t—you
weren‘t there any great length of time, most of your time was actually spent on the water.
When President Kennedy was assonated we were a floating battalion at that point. 23:03
I remember being woke up early that morning, two or three o‘clock in the morning, and
being told that the president was assassinated, and I rolled over and went back to sleep. I
didn‘t—guys were playing jokes on each other all the time, so I didn‘t believe it. Of
course, the next morning there was a formation on the deck to tell us that had really
happened. Now, during that floating battalion phase also, is our first introduction to
Vietnam. The new regime was in place, they had just overthrown the old regime, junta,
that was there, and because we were the floating battalion, our mission was to go in and
11
�pull out the American civilians. We had actually been transferred to an aircraft carrier, we
had been issued five rounds of ammunition and flack gear, we were on the deck of the
Oriskany and ready to board helicopters when the new regime had promised American
civilians safety, and we called off the operation, and that was 1963. 24:09 So, that was
our first experience with Vietnam, and I had never even heard of the country before that.
Interviewer: How much longer were you in Okinawa after that?
After the floating battalion, you come back and you are probably the senior residents on
the island in your preparation for leaving. When we came back and I was involved in
track and field, I ran a relay, I was a member of the Marine Corps, they had three football
teams over there, the Streaks, the Strikers, and the Royals, and I played for the Streaks.
So, it‘s sort of a down time, you do some operations, but you‘re not in the field nearly as
much. It‘s a good time, a time to get out and mingle with the public, and if you‘re an
athlete you can participate, and that sort of thing. 25:07 So, maybe we were rotated
within the next three or four months.
Interviewer: Now, when they rotate you out, what happens to you then?
Remember, at this time you‘re part of a unit. You‘re a regimental unit that‘s moving
from place to place, so on your rotation back to the states, the first thing that happens if
you have thirty days leave coming, so you‘re on vacation for twenty or thirty days.
Interestingly enough, I found if I took a twenty day vacation and went back to New
Orleans, I was so bored that I would stay fifteen days and go back to the base, you know,
or if I took thirty days, I would maybe stay twenty and go back. Once you get back you
are the senior people in the company and you are waiting for the recruits to come in, so
you can take them through their six-week lock on phase, so you have completed a cycle.
12
�26:00 Now, once that cycle is completed, what is supposed to happen is you are to now
receive orders out of a combat unit and into a support type unit, a truck company or
supply type unit. Most of my friends that came back with me—we had taken the new
recruits through their lock on cycle and we were waiting for orders, and most of my
friends had received their orders. I was waiting, kind of alphabetical, I guess, Woods,
you know—well, while I‘m waiting for my orders—BOOM—Vietnam, so the first
combat unit of any size to leave, Marine unit to leave, was about to happen. They were
now filling these units. We weren‘t the first unit to go to Vietnam; the first unit had
come from the Brigade in Hawaii. They had already gone, so this was the stateside unit,
and what they were doing was beefing up the 7th Marine Regiment. That‘s where I
started off, I had gone to Okinawa and I had become a 3rd Marine Regiment, I came back
and I was in the 5th Marine Regiment, and now I receive orders right back to the same
company, the same battalion, and the same division where I started, Delta Company, 1st
battalion, 7th Marines. 27:16 So, a tour of duty overseas is thirteen months, and at this
point I had about eight months to do in the Marine Corps, so how can you send me back
over for a thirteen month tour? So, when I reported in, the first thing I did was request
―mass‖, that means you want to see the CO, and my complaint was that I had just come
back from an overseas tour, I shouldn‘t be here, I have only eight months to do, and he
looked up from his desk and said, ―I‘m in the same boat, report in to your platoon‖, so I
did. The Marine Corps solved the problem for me though, what they did was to give
everyone in the Marine Corps a four month involuntary extension, so I had my thirteen
months to do. 28:04 From there I reported in to Delta 1/7, obviously, and back to
Okinawa we went. Because we were the first group to leave the states to go over, and
13
�remember, as I mentioned before, we were a conventional warfare organization, we had
to quickly learn jungle warfare tactics. There is a part of Okinawa that‘s in the northern
portion, in the hills, and it‘s called the Northern Training Area, NTA. So, NTA had
trainers set up to teach guerilla training, expose you to what a punji pit is and some of the
booby traps that the Vietnamese had set up. My company was the first company to go
through the training, and as a result of that we became the host company; we trained the
rest of the battalion and the regiment that moved up. After NTA, we then went to
Vietnam, and the area for us was Chu Lai area in Vietnam. 29:07 Chu Lai was on the
Song Tan River and our job was to control the river. The river had a small island in the
middle, so boats going on the river would go one way on one side and come the other
way on the other side. We had a 106 [recoilless rifle?], which is a big artillery piece, set
up on a hill, and the way you aim a 106 is with a .50 caliber [machine gun] that sits on
the top and fires tracer rounds, so if you want to hit something, you shoot the 50 caliber
with a tracer round, and wherever that tracer round hits, you fire the gun, and that‘s
where it will land too. To give you an idea of the impact of a 106, if you are lying on the
ground next to one that goes off, you rise up off it, so it‘s a heavy weapon. There would
be a squad that‘s down on the island and they would search the boats and check
identification. Occasionally, you would get a boat that would run the block, so you
would call up to the 106, and you would identify the boat and then the 106 would take
care of that. 30:17 So, we stayed on the Song Tan River, and pulled operations from
there, and he interesting part about that set up is that the first night that we moved in to
relieve Charlie company, who had been there before us, the VC came over our radio
signals and told us that they would see us tonight. Well, we haven‘t had combat, and we
14
�were young and ―gung ho‖, so we welcomed them. That night they came in, they came
in through barbed wire, conertina wire, trip flares, Claymore mines, mosquitoes as big as
helicopters, and they came in nude with the exception of their cartridge belts and
weapons. 31:08 They reason they were nude is because you can feel what touches your
skin as you move, so they didn‘t set off anything. We knew they had come in. They
were in our command post throwing grenades into tents, and needless to say, that was a
tense night. The next morning there were bodies everywhere. We repelled them with a
minimal amount of casualties. From there we went on two sweeps where we backed the
North Vietnamese up to a river, they had no escape, so they came out and that was
conventional warfare, that‘s a Marine Corps game, so that was over. Another operation
that we went on that sticks in my mind more than the others is—one morning we were to
mount the helicopters in a battalion size operation, hit a LZ, a landing zone, and sweep an
area. 32:16 Well, we got to the landing zone about dusk, we ran some patrols to see
what was in the area, we ran into a unit, and this was my squad that was on patrol, and we
couldn‘t tell how large it was because we were approaching a rice paddy dyke and
turning left. One of the guys picked up a Vietnamese unit on the other side of the dyke
turning left also, going in the opposite direction. Got on the radio to find out if we had
friendly troops, we did not, so we engaged them in fire, they did not return fire, so we
didn‘t know what size unit it was. You have to report that to intelligence, after, our
patrol, were back in the area, and some snipers fire is coming off the hill, my team goes
up, we look for the sniper, we can‘t find him, but he knows where we are because you
can hear bullets whizzing past your ear, and even hear them as they cut the air, it makes a
whizzing sound. 33:19 So, we thought that he won that day, so we came back off the
15
�hill without finding him. When we gave our report we saw the Hueys some miles away,
over a hill, and there were about five of them and they were lighting the hill up, so we
knew somebody is in trouble. There was a term used in Vietnam, and the term was called
―Sparrow Hawk‖, and ―Sparrow Hawk‖ is a rescue unit, and that title is assigned to
different units at different time. What that means is , if there is an organization in the
field and they run into more than they can handle, they get on the radio and they call
―Sparrow Hawk‖. Your unit then is supposed to go to their rescue, and we were the
―Sparrow Hawk‖ for this unit that was being hit. 34:04 So, even before we could eat,
we had to pack up and start up that hill. As we moved up the hill in the twilight, it‘s a
good thing we had to move because we could see that the unit that we had shot up was a
massive size unit, and they were moving in on our positions as we were moving up the
hill. We held most of the night and those hills were extremely steep. The guy in front of
me was carrying a three front fire rocket launcher, and I know he was hurting because in
addition to that he had to carry his rifle and his rifle ammo and stuff, so at times I thought
I should help him, but I was hurting myself. We took several breaks and we got to the
unit at dawn the next day. These guys had walked into, or been lured into and ambush
that had been pulled off by a battalion the size of Vietnam, and they had destroyed this
unit, there were bodies everywhere. 35:04 There was one guy in this unit who was
hiding behind a rock and he was saying, ―don‘t go over there, they‘re over there too,
they‘re all over the place, they‘re everywhere‖, and when the corpsmen got to him, they
had to evacuate him, he was—you know, what he had seen upset him quite a bit.
Interviewer: Was this a company size unit?
It was a company size unit.
16
�Interviewer: How much of it was left do you think?
What we saw, what I saw, were maybe eight guys. What we picked, my squad, I was
squad leader at the time, and we were assigned an area to pick up bodies and load them
on the LZ. We must have picked up eighteen bodies. Now, there were other squads
doing the same thing, and you didn‘t see the whole area. 36:04 My memory hits me
because I thought I had assigned my squad to do—everybody had an assignment and we
lost one that we later saw in the bush, so a team leader of mine and I had to carry this
guy, and we carried him on a poncho. I was in the front and his arm fell out of the
poncho and every time I took a step his arm hit the back of the leg. His arm was hanging
by a thread and he was shot from his feet to his head. It must have been one hell of a
battle because no one had any ammo left. This was a serious fight. For a long time I
would wake up at night and feel that arm hitting in the back of my leg. Where his blood
had gotten on my utility, it was there, and when I got the opportunity to throw it away I
did, because I could always smell it. 37:06 You can‘t get rid of the smell of death.
Another incident that sticks out in my mind was maybe a week before it was time for me
to rotate out of the unit—when we reported onto the 7th Marines out of Camp Pendleton,
and proud of going to Vietnam, your unit cohesion was broken because you‘re pulling
Marines from all over the Marine Corps to fill a unit, not a unit that you have been with.
So, you go overseas with some new guys that you have to bond with, and the ones that
you bond with best are those that you work closely with, which is your fire team, four
guys, and your squad, which is thirteen guys. So, my squad, before I was promoted to
squad leader, which was a result of an ambush, my team consisted of a guy named
―Tihi‖, a native American from a reservation in Arizona, I think, John J. Gianelli, a
17
�boxer, Italian, from Hoboken New Jersey, O‘Brien, a big real strong Irish guy that
smoked cigars, and me, so they kind of called us the ―mod squad‖. 38:18 We were real
proud of that, and in fact; we would volunteer to take the duties that others didn‘t want
because we knew a secret. We would volunteer for point on all patrols, and we ran
patrols every third day. The reason we volunteered for the points is because when you
walk into an ambush, unless it‘s an L shaped ambush, they usually let the point pass and
hit the main body. In addition to that we are the eyes and ears of the squad or the
platoon, so you know what‘s going on and you have control and direction, and we
enjoyed that, so we volunteered for the point. This patrol that we went on was an
interesting patrol because the last time we had moved into this same area we could see
where the VC had been improving their position, and we got hit every time we went into
this village. 39:16 this time it was different. The hit us, and you could see that the
position were being improved. So, the night before the patrol is when the squad leaders
would meet with the platoon commander, we would get our marching orders, who‘s
going to be flank, who‘s going to be point, what direction we‘re taking etc. When the
squad leader came back to meet with the team leaders, me, he gave us this patrol route,
and I said, ―Does Lieutenant remember they‘re improving their positions, and we‘re
walking into this stuff? ―If we take this route it‘s going to be Purple Heart day did you
tell him that?‖ And the squad leader said, ―No, you go tell him‖, and I said, ―Ok, I will‖,
so I did. 40:02 I went to talk to the Lieutenant and made a suggestion on how we might
avoid this, and he gave me a lesson on military tactics, and my suggestion, we were going
to split machine guns, and you never split your machine gun, so we‘re up and we have
point again. So, I met with my team, and we had to go across this rice paddy dyke, which
18
�is only three feet wide, maybe, and once you‘re on the other side of the dyke you‘re in the
village. The idea was for us to run as fast as we could across this dyke. As soon as we
get on the other side, rather than proceeding to the core of the village, we‘re going to set
up a perimeter until the rest of the platoon gets over, and then we‘ll pick point up again,
but we don‘t want to get this separated, not with these improvements that we‘ve been
seeing. 41:01 So, we set up on the side of the dyke before the run, and I said, ―go‖, and
for some reason Gianelli‘s the point, Tihi‘s behind him, and they ran halfway to the dyke
and stopped, and as soon as they stopped the 4th of July happened, and everything just
broke loose. The first round got Gianelli, we use to wear our magazines upside down, we
had M14s, not 16s, and it was easier to get them out that way. The first round hit him
and took the magazine guide into his leg, so it got him right in the—hit the femur vein,
bleeding quite a bit, and when things calmed down we—it took us a while to get the
helicopter in, it was extremely hot, like it always was, gangrene had already started to set
in, and finally we got him evacuated. 42:09 I never saw him again, but it is my
understanding that he lost part of his leg. The reason that bothers me is, Gianelli came
from a fighter family. His dad, his uncle, his cousins, they were all boxers, so when his
tour was up that‘s what he was going to do. Now, he had been training since he was a
young kid, and he was good, he was good, and Gianelli never realized his dream, you
know. The squad leader got killed that day, so I got promoted to squad leader. Before
the day was over we walked into three ambushes, two going out and one coming back.
The one coming back was the one that was a surprise. We had taken the route out several
times, but we had a different route coming back, because it looked like they were setting
up for us again, so we changed the route, and they still hit us. 43:00 What we found out
19
�later was that our interpreter was a VC, so they had signals and knew everything we were
doing. That was maybe four or five days before we were supposed to rotate. At that time
you rotated by numbers. If five new guys came in, and your number was one to five,
then you were on your way out. If your relief was in, then you didn‘t have to go on this
patrol, your relief would go on that patrol. So, for my team, all of us had a relief that was
in, so this was it, this was the last patrol for us. So, to be on your last patrol and it was a
weird time in America.
Interviewer: So, you were there, in this area, for thirteen months?
No, out of the thirteen months came the training cycle on Okinawa, so we probably
actually did, in country, maybe ten months. 44:04
Interviewer: And over the course of that time, were you kind of repeating all of the
same activities, patrolling the same areas, and doing the same things?
Yes, most of the time that we were there. A day went like—you came off patrol, and
there was always a poker game or a dice game or some sort of a gambling game going.
Many guys would come off patrol and sit in a game, and they may stay there until its time
for the next patrol. If you were in a quiet are, and we did move to other areas from time
to time, and engineers had blown out a swimming hole for us, so you could go
swimming. There was a softball field that was set up back in that area, so unless
intelligence was telling you that your unit is going to be attacked, you try to make life as
normal as possible. 45:00 Occasionally, like when they came in through the barbed
wire, you would be hit, and occasionally you would get snipers or mortars. There was a
village that was maybe a half-mile from us, and occasionally we would send a squad out
to set up ambushes to see if we could catch anything coming into the village.
20
�Occasionally on their way out to set up an ambush, they would walk into an ambush.
Sometimes we would go on a patrol and drop off part of the unit, say maybe in a
hedgerow to set up an ambush, and then you come out that way. You were supposed to
be fooling the local populace, so they didn‘t know you were dropping them off, but five
minutes later the kids are out looking at you, so they knew that you were there. Then
occasionally there would be a large operation that your unit would be a part of, so some
of your unit would go. We were also doing some stuff in Laos at the time, and we
weren‘t doing this as a unit. They were pulling some people out of units, putting them in
units, and sending them to Laos, and we weren‘t supposed to be there. 46:11 In fact, if
my rotation replacement hadn‘t come in I was scheduled to be one of those. There were
occasions when we worked with what was called Katusas, which was with the South
Korean military, we pulled operations with them, and they were an interesting group.
They were extremely disciplined, and we worked with the ROK Marines, its what they
were called, it was the Korean Marines. We would exchange emblems, and theirs were a
little different than ours. That was an interesting experience.
Interviewer: Did you have any sense whether or not you were really accomplishing
anything or changing anything, or did you not have enough of an understanding of
the larger political situation to think like that?
I was an eighteen year old that was uneducated, that had the broad stroke, and was here to
stop communism so there wouldn‘t be a domino effect. What does that mean? I don‘t
have a clue, and neither did anyone else, you know. 47:25 You got more of a picture of
what Vietnam was about when you came back to the states. No, I had no clue; I
remember I was in Vietnam when Ali refused the draft. I said, ―If I‘m here, he should be
21
�here. I don‘t know what the heck they‘re talking about‖. Of course, we were getting
daily news of what was going on back in the states; you were getting bits and pieces of
the news. So no, from a political perspective, I had no clue. I was eighteen years old and
an uneducated person. 48:04
Interviewer: Now, what impression did you have of the Vietnamese population
generally? Did they—was it positive or negative, or just didn’t understand them, or
what?
I didn‘t personalize the war against the Vietnamese people. I did understand that these
are governments that went to war for whatever their government ends are. The
Vietnamese that we worked with, I didn‘t treat them any differently than I would treat
anyone else. In fact, I will give you another funny story. Highway One was the major
highway through Vietnam, and there were a lot of buses that went through, and we had a
check point there for a while. Everyone had to get off the bus and we had to check their
ID cards, check the bus, and let them go on their way. We were set up near a village, our
campsite was set up near a village, and the Mamasans would have to go out and gather
wood, and they had these yokes that would go around their neck and they balanced them
with their hands. 49:05 There were big baskets on both ends of these yokes, and they
would fill them up with firewood and bring them back every evening. Well, one evening
this Mamasan had this big heavy lead of wood, and I can‘t let this woman carry this big
heavy load of wood up that hill, so at least I can carry it to the top of the hill for her. She
couldn‘t speak English, but through gestures I told her I was going to carry the wood for
her. She gestured no, no, no, but I communicated that I would carry it to the top of the
hill and then she could have it. I got under this yoke, and I couldn‘t lift it, and I couldn‘t
22
�believe that. I tried, and again I couldn‘t lift it, she laughed, got under the yoke, and
trotted to the top of the hill, so I was real impressed.
Interviewer: So, when, then, did you leave Vietnam off that tour? 50:02
Well, when you leave Vietnam is based on your number. You go to Okinawa, and from
Okinawa is when you come back to the states.
Interviewer: Was it 1964 when you left, or was it 1965 by then?
I‘m pretty sure it must have been 1964, yes 1964 [Presumably 1966, since the Marines
did not land until 1965]. So, processed out of Okinawa, and then flying back, I think I
came in through San Francisco, and then on leave before you‘re put into your next unit.
The next unit was Quantico, Virginia. The rule was, you got on this four-month
extension, and when you got back to the states, and I can‘t remember exactly what the
time frame was, but it was either if it was less than thirty days you had left to do, you
could be discharged or it was less than sixty days you could be discharged. I had either
thirty-four or sixty-four days, so I couldn‘t be discharged, so they sent me to Quantico,
Virginia, to the Casual Company there, and there were two events of interest there. 51:10
Disbursing is where you settle all the pay issues, so once I got to Quantico I had some
pay issues, and I had to turn in my records. I‘m walking to Lejeune Hall where
disbursement is, and coming toward me are two women Marines. There‘s a car parked
on the curb, and right across the street is the 45-pistol range. So, as I‘m walking toward
these women, going to Lejeune Hall, they open fire at the pistol range, and under that car
I went. The women thought that was funny, but that was survival reaction. Initially I
was a little bit embarrassed, but after—I really wasn‘t because that was what I had been
doing for almost a year. Another thing that happened at Quantico was that they made me
23
�this cross-country chaser. 52:03 I was given an assignment to go and pick up a deserter,
so they give you a little history of why the guy deserted. This guy was a tough guy and
he had attacked some guards etc. You have to go to the armory, you check out a weapon,
you had five rounds of ammo, but you‘re not supposed to load the ammo etc. So, there is
a driver of the vehicle, when we picked him up, the vehicle is covered in the back, and
you and the prisoner sit in the back. They told me about how bad this guy was, so I put a
magazine in my chamber, jacked around and took the safety off. By this time the guy is
panicky, ―hey, you‘re not supposed to do that‖, and I said, ―just sit in the corner and be
still, and you don‘t have anything to worry about as long as you are still‖. When we got
back and I turned him in he reported me, and they asked me if I put a round in the
chamber? Did I take the safety off? I said, ―yeah‖, and they said, ―Why?‖ I said, ―This
guy has attacked other people, and he‘s a bad guy, and I just wanted to make sure he
wasn‘t going to attack me, you know‖. 53:06 That was the last time they sent me out to
pick up anyone. I just waited for my thirty-four days to be up, and I was discharged. I
got out of the Marine Corps, and the Urban League got me a job at D.H. Holmes, which
was a large department store. What I did was finish shoes that had been purchased and
returned, so you had to sand the bottoms and put them back on the shelf. The first
payday came around and you didn‘t get a check, you got a pay envelope. The supervisor
that I had gave me the pay envelope, and when I looked at my pay I was missing money.
I said, ―Don‘t we get x amount of dollars an hour?‖ And he said, ―that‘s right‖, and I
said, ―Other than taxes is there something else being taken out? 54:02 He said, ―no‖,
and I said, ―this isn‘t right, that‘s not enough money‖, and he said, ―I don‘t know about
that‖, and he turned around and walked away. The guys told me that occasionally this
24
�guy takes money out of your pay envelope, well, I worked one more week there and I
quit. The next job that I got was at the top of the International Trade Mart at the end of
Canal Street, a big tall building, as a dishwasher. We had to argue whether or not I
would be paid minimum wage because for that sort of job you don‘t have to pay
minimum wage, and I‘m not going to work for less than minimum wage. Even minimum
wage was not enough to get paid on a Friday, take a girl friend to a movie, give my
mother some help out money at home, and have a nickel left in my pocket, that didn‘t
work. The only thing I could think of was, ―let me go back in the Marine Corps to kind
of figure this out—what am I to do in life? This isn‘t working. 55:03 So, I came back
into the Marine Corps for a change of MOS, Military Occupational Specialty is O-311. I
came back in for O-361, which is postal. I was sent to El Toro California, which is no
longer there, expensive property, stayed an El Toro for a while and from there another
overseas tour.
Interviewer: Where did you go on the overseas tour?
You go to Okinawa, but let me tell you what happened. Most of the Marine Corps that
serves in the Far East is from Okinawa, but there‘s a wing in Iwakuni, Japan. By this
time I have been overseas three or four times, and they have all been in Okinawa. This
set of orders is for Iwakuni, Japan, and I‘m happy because I‘m going to see something
else. 56:04 I was to transfer, go to Okinawa, transfer to another jet that‘s going to take
me to Iwakuni, Japan. When I get to Okinawa I‘m met at the airport by an old postal
friend of mine by the name of Guy Olegallo,, and the last time I saw Olegallo he was an
enlisted man, and now he‘s a warrant officer. He said, ―Woods, man, I‘m glad to see
you. I heard you were coming over, and that‘s why I came down to meet you. Guess
25
�what I‘ve done?‖ I said, ―What have you done?‖ He said, ―I got your orders changed‖,
and I said, ―You what?‖ He said, ―I got your orders changed and you‘re going to work
for me‖, and I said, ―look, look, I got a chance to go to Iwakuni and you got my orders
changed?‖ He said, ―Yeah, yeah, let me tell you what I‘m going to do for you. You‘re
going to be the postal inspector for the island‖, well, that calmed me down a little bit.
That was an interesting job, and I had two guys working for me, so I ended up staying in
Okinawa. 57:03 My last overseas tour was in 1979. From there I came back to San
Diego, and from San Diego I was discharged. I had some interesting duties, I was a
recruiter, so you go to recruiter school in Parris Island, South Carolina. It was my first
introduction to the Midwest, my original orders sent me to Chicago, and Chicago had a
sub-station in Michigan City, Indiana, so they sent me there, and I was there for about
four days, and because it was called Michigan City I didn‘t realize I was in Indiana, so
the first letter I wrote home I told them I was in Michigan City, Michigan. From there—
Michigan City had a permanent contact station in Benton Harbor, Michigan, so I ended
up spending three and a half years in Benton Harbor, Michigan. 58:04 Once you have
done independent duty, which is the drill field, I had been on drill field, I was hand
selected to be an instructor at drill instructor school, I taught the leadership package, and
once you have those kind of duties you can pretty much choose where the duty station is
that you want, so San Diego was the choice for me. I enjoyed the environment, the
economy was bad, my wife to be, had visited me there for a number of times, and she
wanted to leave Michigan when I got out of the Marine Corps, and live in San Diego, but
she was not really mobile here. We had gas lines, Carter was the president at the time, so
we decided to settle in Grand Rapids, Michigan until we decided where we wanted to live
26
�when the economy got better. Once I got here I saw how far a dollar could go and this
was a community unlike others in Michigan, so we built a home and got a job at Grand
Valley, and here we are. 59:06
Interviewer: Let’s back up a little to the point where you had re-entered the Marine
Corps etc. You’re in the Marine Corps, kind of the late sixties on into 1982, and did
you ever have any pressure to go back to Vietnam, or was there any prospect of
going back to Vietnam in say the late 60’s, 69, 70, in there, when we had a lot of
soldiers over there?
There were a lot of things going on at that time and there was some pressure to go back to
Vietnam. There was an old saying that said, ―there are only three types of Marines, those
in Vietnam, those leaving, and those coming‖, so it was pretty much like it is now. There
were not as many tours, guys spend as many as five tours in Iraq, but three and four were
not unheard of in Vietnam, it was the same situation.
Interviewer: You managed to stay out of that.
I didn‘t, actually, and once I got back to camp Lejeune, North Carolina I was there for a
while stationed with my dad. 0:06
My dad was in the Marine Corps for a while. I‘m
in postal, and I got orders to go overseas. Now, there had been a gunnery sergeant I had
been working for that he and I did not get along at all, I mean not at all. In the morning
when I was sitting at my desk doing the mail, out of the corner of my eye I could see this
guy standing in the door watching me, and he would find something to say to me daily.
If it took me too long to find a parking place he would be waiting for me at the door.
Well, he got transferred to Washington D.C., and he became a monitor in Washington
D.C. A monitor the person that makes assignments for all of the people in the Marine
27
�Corps in their field, so if you‘re a postal monitor and there needs to be a person in Japan,
your monitor will pick a person to go to Japan, ok? That would be based on how long
you have been in the states and the rotation cycle etc. 1:03
I got orders to go back to
Vietnam, but before I left Camp Lejeune my orders were modified to put me back into an
infantry unit. I went to see the colonel and I told him that I had just come back into the
Marine Corps for a change of MOS from infantry to postal, so this is a mistake, and to
put me back in postal. He agreed, and changed my orders back to postal. The staging
station for everyone going back to Vietnam is Okinawa, you leave the states, you go to
Okinawa, and from Okinawa to Vietnam, and when I got to Okinawa my orders had been
changed back to infantry. Now you‘re in a casual company, you‘re waiting for a flight to
Vietnam, so every morning you fall out for formation, the people that are going to leave
that day, they call your name and tell you what time to get your gear ready and where
you‘re going to depart from. 2:04 So, the lieutenant that was running the information
called me and told me what infantry outfit I was going to etc. I said, ― wow, mistake‖,
and he said, ―what do you mean mistake?‘ I said, ―I‘m postal, and I just got this changed
before I left stateside, so somebody changed it back, so we need to change that back‖,
and he said, ―take care of that when you get in country‖, and I said, ―no, we‘re going to
take care of this before I get in country, we‘re going to take care of that right here in
Okinawa‖, and he said, ―Marine, I‘m not asking you, I‘m telling you‖, and I said, ―yes sir
I understand, but if you don‘t take care of it here then I‘m going to request mass with the
President of the United States, and it will be thirteen months before I see him and then I‘ll
rotate, so we take care of this here or I‘m going to ask to see the president‖, so he put me
in a casual company until they could work this out. The casual company was a postal
28
�casual, and what we were doing was handling the mail from the deceased people in
Vietnam, and there was loads of that, so I spent that thirteen months in Okinawa, and I
had a monitor that was trying to get me killed, I‘m sure of it, but I tricked him and I‘m
still here. 3:06 A number of things were going on at that time. We can‘t talk about the
Vietnam experience without talking about the environment that that operation took place
in. That was only one thing that was happening in America. There was the civil rights
movement that overlapped this, we had a president who had been assassinated, a
candidate for president assassinated, two major civil rights leaders that had been
assassinated, the woman‘s movement was burning their bras, there was a hippie
movement that was taking place, the Democratic National Convention in Chicago was a
siege, people were demonstrating against an oppressive government as they saw it.
Every serviceman that came back experienced the hatred that many Americans showed
them. For the black serviceman it was a little different. 4:06 The difference is as
Muhammad Ali said, ―I haven‘t lost anything in Vietnam, and there‘s a civil rights
movement going on here, and there are dogs being put on black people, and there are
hoses being put on black people, you fight is here on the streets of America, not in
Vietnam. You‘re fighting for Vietnamese rights when you don‘t have those same rights
here at home. Why are you in that uniform?‖ So, your own community had ostracized
you. Processing that was not easy. On the one hand you had to understand that didn‘t
really have a lot to do with the military. The military was just seen as the symbol of
American power, so you are attacking the symbol, it‘s not the war, and it‘s the symbol
that you are attacking. I kind of worked my way to understanding that. 5:02
The other
thing I understood was that what I‘m seeing here was a better equal opportunity program
29
�in the military than the one that I have in the south, but you still have to deal with being
ostracized by your own community. It wasn‘t an easy time for black military people. I
guess people handles that in different ways, some went AWOL, some would have stayed
in the military, but got out, some turned around and demonstrated against the military,
from a civil rights perspective, not from a Vietnam perspective, some did both, and it was
an individual thing on how you processed that and how you dealt with it.
Interviewer: And you of course stayed, once you went back in. You went back in
and you stayed in.
Yes, I stayed for—I got a twenty-year retirement, but you could actually retire on twenty
years, at that time, with nineteen years and six months. If you had a four year enlistment
and you re-enlisted at three and a half years, then that other six months was given as
admin time, so it counted, but you can no longer do that. 6:14 That was grandfathered
in, so I retired at nineteen years and six months. I had planned on staying longer, and I
enjoyed the military, some of it. the spit and polish, the competition, who can look the
best at formation in the morning, I had friends, you had fourteen set of utilities, you had
one set that you would get in on a foot locker and step in, so you wouldn‘t break the
crease in the back, you spent all night spit shinning your shoes, you had starched and
blocked your cover, and then at the one o‘clock formation you would change out of that
into a new set. That was for me, and I really enjoyed that, and my friends did also, so we
ran that competition. When I decided to get out of the Marine Corps I had a moment. If
you are a field grade officer you have awesome responsibilities. 7:12 Major, Lieutenant
Colonel and Colonel, a full regiment or battalion, and the lives of everyone of theirs is
right in the palm of their hand. Not only do you control the lives of these people, but the
30
�amount of equipment, the tactics that you could put—it‘s awesome, it‘s really awesome.
So, I have always thought of these guys as super smart guys, right? When I was in San
Diego I ran the non-commissioned officers school when I got there. I was given a choice
of three positions, go to my field postal, run the field house, or I could run the NCO
school, so I selected the non-commissioned officers school, and I had five young
sergeants that worked for me. The non-commissioned officers school will take corporals
and sergeants and teach them how to be non-commissioned officers. The school was six
weeks long I think, so we would run a six-week class, a two-week break, and run another
six -week class. 8:10 There were other schools in San Diego, there was drill instructors
school, which I had been a part of that, I had been an instructor there, there was recruiters
school, and I had been a part of that, there was C school, spit and polish, these are the
guys that put on a performance when you‘re base is visited by heavy brass, shoot the
canons etc, and the lost school on that totem pole was the non commissioned officers
school, and that doesn‘t work very well for me. So, I thought, ―what can I do to move the
school into the spotlight, so when people speak of schools, they will speak of us in the
same breath they speak of the other schools?‖ So, what I decided to do is—right next
door to us was an Air Force station, and the ships come into San Diego, and there are
Marines on ships, so if you‘re in port and that coincides with our school cycle, and then
send your guys to our school. There was also a Navy group that was close to us. 9:06
so, I went to them and said, ―if you want to send your guys to our school, send them‖,
and the very first group that took me up on that was the Air Force. They sent a young
man over that embarrassed all of the Marines. We went to the rifle range and fired and
he fired the highest at the rifle range, he wiped them all out on the PFT test, right? So
31
�that was newsworthy for the base paper, so my boss wasn‘t aware of what I was doing,
and when I reported in he had two hats. One hat was C school, and one hat was NCO
school. NCO school-- he said, ―Gunny, you run the NCO school, keep me out of trouble
and it‘s your school, I have to focus my attention over here‖. He ran the C school, so
when he read about this in the paper he said, ―What‘s going on?‖ I said, ―I invited the
Air Force over and I‘ve invited the Navy over, and my people have to learn their
regulations for inspections, and I‘m trying to get some publicity for the school‖. He said,
‗this is great, this is great, you know‖. 10:07
Well, the commanding general got a hold
of it too, so during an officers meeting the colonel, who reports to the general, asked my
boss to come to the next meeting and explain to the general what‘s going on. Well he
couldn‘t, so he said, ―you‘re going‖, and I said, ―ok‖, so I‘m on the agenda to go back,
and I‘m the last person on the agenda. There were Majors, Lieutenant Colonels, and
Colonels, and at the time there was a Professor Bloom that I think was out of Wisconsin
and come up with a learning program that was called the Bloom's Theory of Mastery.
Students didn‘t compete against other students; they competed against a list of learning
objectives. The Marine Corps had said, ―this is what we‘re going to do‖, and I had
instituted that into NCO school, but many of the schools didn‘t like it and they hadn‘t
instituted it, which is interesting to me because there was an order that you do it. 11:03
At this meeting we had people telling the general why this wouldn‘t work. I had been
working that for six months, so what do you mean why won‘t work; it‘s a perfect
program? So, my mouth kind of fell open, and first, I never would have dreamed these
guys would give any sort of excuse, second, they certainly wouldn‘t have been accepting
that kind of excuse from me, so I found that these Captain Kirk Star Trek guys had clay
32
�feet. On that day I decided, I had to get out of the Marine Corps because they make more
money, they have more responsibility, and the only difference between them and me is a
sheepskin, so I got to go do that, I‘ve got to go do that. At that point I had seventeen
years in the Marine Corps, and I never thought of myself as college material. I came
from a poor background and we never talked college in my house. I thought you had to
be a real smart guy to go to school, but if these guys can do it, I can do it that standing on
my head, so I had seventeen years in and I had three more years to do. 12:08 I did it
and by 1980 I got out on Friday and enrolled in college on Monday, so my life changed.
Interviewer: Did the Marine Corps itself change at all during the time when you
were in it? Was it a different sort of organization, or attitude, or way of doing
things in 1980 than it was in 1963?
There was some change going through the Marine Corps, but you had older guys that—
and the Bloom Theory of Mastery is an example, it‘s an order, but this is the way we‘ve
been doing it for a hundred years. It had to be jammed down their throat, so change was
real slow. You could see some changes at the top, and one of the changes that took place
because of the Marine Corps TO pride of tactical readiness number, the pride of Vietnam
was 175 thousand, and of course, the Marine Corps number went up to over 200 thousand
during the height of Vietnam. Well, prior to that, the commandant of the Marine Corps
sat as a joint member of the chiefs of staff, but didn‘t have a vote unless it was a matter
involving the Marine Corps, so he wasn‘t a co-equal at that point. 13:11 Once the
Marine Corps strength went up over 200 thousand, then he became a co-equal partner on
the joint chiefs of staff, so that was a change, and put much pride in the Marine Corps
forward to see that happen. There were other changes taking place, certainly we had to
33
�adapt to jungle warfare training, and I heard some officers talking on time, and I don‘t
know if this is true, but this is a story I will relate to you. When we first got into Vietnam
we went to the French and asked the French for the manuals that they used to fight to
fight the insurgents in Vietnam. Well, the French were using the same manuals that we
were using to fight jungle warfare in WWII. It was jungle warfare, but it was a different
type, for example, if you were fighting jungle warfare in the Philippines, you were a
foreign power fighting another foreign power in the Philippines. In Vietnam you weren‘t
fighting a foreign power, you were fighting the people in that country, the indigenous
population. 14:09 So, it wasn‘t the same. We had to kind of learn on the job, so there
were some changes, but a lot of things died hard, and over time, so there was some
change, but not a lot of change by the time I got out of the Marine Corps.
Interviewer: Was there change, do you think, in the sorts of people who were
joining the Marines, or why they were going in or anything like that?
There are recruit categories, there‘s a category three, a category two, and a category one,
I guess, and that‘s based on the score that you make on an ASTRAP test. When I came
in the Marine Corps, the Marine Corps was taking people that scored in the lower
percentile, cat fours is what they were called. Anytime there‘s a military buildup the
requirements change. There was also a draft during Vietnam, so the kind of people that
were coming in may not have been the most desirable. 15:11 The Marine Corps was
processing people out of the Corps for bad conduct discharges on a regular basis, a
regular basis. Casual companies had just about every base that was filled with
undesirables that would be let out. Some of that had to do with the civil rights things that
were taking place. There was a rebellion within the Corps, and some of it was that. I
34
�think now you have a more educated military. There may even be a requirement for
senior enlisted men to have some college, maybe even an associates degree for certain
ranks. If you don‘t make a certain rank by a given time in the military, you have to get
out. That‘s good and also poses some questions, and it‘s good because you can think
through tactical situations better for your unit leaders. 16:13 At the same time that you
start to think through these tactical situations, it poses questions if this is the best thing to
do, that you‘re being told to do. So, I haven‘t seen this, but I would assume, given the
way that I think, even when I was an uneducated person I raised questions of some of the
things we were doing, and now as an educated person now, I raise a lot of questions
about things that should be done, so that may be a double edged sword, I don‘t know, I
haven‘t seen any reports to see how the military responds to that. Let me give you an
example of that let me give you an example of that. The Marine Corps has a silent drill
team and these guys are sharp. They do sunset parades in Washington D.C., and they
perform all over the country. If you haven‘t seen them, you should because they are
seriously impressive. 17:11 Each member of the silent drill team is probably five deep,
make a mistake and somebody‘s going to take your place, right? But they only take
young Marines for this because of the discipline that‘s required and the demand that‘s put
on them. the younger they are, the less they will rebel against this, so you have to think
about that, and that‘s why the military, up until recently, we‘re in combat, take a person
that‘s a certain age to go through basic training. Once you get older and more mature
there are things that you rebel against. I think the education process is like that too, and I
would be interested to see any reports that the military may have done on something like
that.
35
�Interviewer: If you look back on the career that you had in the Marine Corps, what
do you think the main effects of that experience were on you? 18:08
The Marine Corps makes you responsible. I find that responsibility is something that a
lot of people try to avoid. I don‘t mind being held accountable. I am responsible for my
actions, and what I expect as a result of being accountable is recognition when I do well,
and if punishment is necessary when I do poorly, it‘s all on me. It gave me self
assurance, it gave me early exposure to leadership, it made me understand the real
meaning of friendship, everybody is not your friend. Friends are a special category, and I
met people in the Marine Corps that are my friends today. It made me know that I am
capable of competing in any environment that I decide to compete in. 19:12 Before I
went in the Marine Corps I had nowhere near that type of insurance. Society had told me
that there were only certain things I could do and a lot of things I couldn‘t do, and the
Marine Corps changed that for me.
Interviewer: All right, the whole thing makes for a very good story, so I would like
to close here by thanking you for coming in and telling it today.
Thank you very much for having me.
36
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WoodsM
Title
A name given to the resource
Woods, Michael (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Woods, Michael
Description
An account of the resource
Michael Woods grew up in a poor neighborhood in New Orleans and enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1960 at the age of 17. He was based on Okinawa in the early 1060s, and was sent to Vietnam with one of the first Marine units assigned there, and participated in a number of combat actions of varying size. After his tour in Vietnam was over, he stayed in the Marines until 1979, but did not return to Vietnam.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.)
WKTV
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-06-08
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/642b2a8595a025b2e2a25e692f7f7dd7.mp4
5166f5dc7424dc4fd7f5b8a9ac8b707f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/17402006c999fbba3ef5559f29ec2c03.pdf
c9d789483733fcd85b1ea1bfb4f8ea12
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
William Womer
(17:37)
Background Information (00:13)
Born June 29th of 1941 (00:15)
Served in the Vietnam war and during the Cold War (00:22)
Highest rank was Sergeant Major. (00:30)
Born in Niles Michigan. (1:02)
He has 2 younger brothers and 1 younger sister. His brother Pete was in the Navy for 7 years.
(1:15)
His father attempted to enlist during World War II but was unable do to his job at a plane
factory. He was later drafted in 1945. (1:33)
Before he was drafted, William was an aquatics director for a YMCA. (2:24)
He was processed in Chicago. At this time the men were divided between Marines and Army.
(2:44)
The men were then sent by train to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri by train. (3:10)
Basic Training (3:22)
William was at Fort Leonard Wood during May-July of approx 1966. Due to the heat, some
physical training had to be cancelled at times. (3:30)
He enjoyed the basic training due to his excellent shape. (4:00)
As a result of his performance in training, William was made a squad leader. As a result, he was
given a room with 2 other roommates. (4:30)
The men were given hand to hand combat training and bayonet training. (5:00)
William did not find adjusting to military life to difficult. (5:32)
After his basic was completed, William was sent to California for Advanced Infantry Training
(AIT). (6:00)
Service in the Army (6:28)
After completing Advanced Infantry Training, William was sent to Germany where he served
with Company B, 2nd of the 509th Airborne Mechanized, 8th infantry Division. (6:34)
From Germany, part of his unit was deployed to Vietnam for the Tet Offensive in 1968. (7:00)
Because France dropped out of NATO, the men had to fly around France to Turkey, than
Thailand, than via Helicopter to Vietnam. (7:19)
A month after the Tet Offensive broke out, the unit was moved back to Germany. (8:00)
William served in the military for 26.5 years. (8:50)
While in Vietnam, William’s unit’s duty was to ambush enemies along the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
(10:10)
Often times the NVA that he encountered were too big of a group to fire upon. (10:34)
Effects of Service (11:00)
�
William has multiple military friends that he still keeps in touch with. One has PTSD. (11:12)
He has been awarded the Meritorious Service Medal 3 times, an Army Achievement Medal and
was select as the 4th Army NCO of the year. (12:20)
As a result of his service, William has a greater appreciation for life and the value of good
opportunities. (14:04)
William believes he is blessed due to the caliber of men that served over and under him. (15:17)
He would never want anyone to go into combat; he does not however, regret his experience.
(15:56)
Over all his military experience was good. (16:56)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WomerW1369V
Title
A name given to the resource
Womer, William (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Womer, William
Description
An account of the resource
William Womer, born in 1941 in Niles Michigan, served in the U.S. Army for 26.5 years. During his service, William was stationed in both Germany as well as in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive in 1968 where he organized ambushes on the Ho Chi Minh Trail. William had the honor of being selected as the 4th Army NCO of the year and spent the later part of his service stateside training solders.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jozwik, Heather (Interviewer)
Pontlous, Brooke (interviewer)
Catalano, Dmitrius (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-11-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8a0009678d4e2a1e45a124b1b48a661d.m4v
dd42cdea8bcb38af49f80d5343fa3a76
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4e927ab904ab7ea87e099d830f03e8c4.pdf
f29250bb5944b16791e297b1ccff0f0a
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Bernie Windmiller
Vietnam War; Cold War
28 minutes 31 seconds
*Note: Times in the outline correspond with timecode in interview
(01:51:53) Early Life & Enlisted Service
-Born on July 3, 1932, in Gary, Indiana
-Drafted into the Army in 1954
-Left college after two years and got drafted
-Sent to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, for basic training
-Sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for field radio training
-Learned about use of field radios and Morse code
-Deployed to South Korea
-Spent six (or eight) months at the demilitarized zone
-Part of a small unit of nine or ten men
-Five enlisted men at a small compound and the officers helped the South Koreans
-Officers were attached to the 11th Republic of Korea Division
-Sent to Army headquarters in Daegu and worked the switchboard
-Had 11 women work with him
(01:54:15) Becoming a Chaplain Pt. 1
-Raised in a very religious home
-Active in his church
-Involved with a religious television program in college
-Before he got drafted, he felt he was heading for the ministry
-While in Korea, he only saw a chaplain once every three months
-Thought the Army was short on chaplains
-Didn’t realize it was because his post was so remote
-Felt he was being called to the chaplaincy
-Returned to college and went into the seminary
-Professor in seminary had been a Navy chaplain during World War II
-Held an informal class at night for students interested in the chaplaincy
-Part of the staff specialist corps (no uniform, and a chance to try out being in the Army)
-Graduated from seminary and got into an Army Reserve unit on Southside of Chicago
-Also had a church on the South Side of Chicago
-Sent to basic course for chaplains at Fort Hamilton, New York
-Solidified his decision to become a chaplain
-Petitioned his denomination for endorsement
-Sent to 5th Army Headquarters in Chicago for an interview, and was accepted
�(01:57:00) Stationed at Fort Riley
-Joined them in spring 1966
-Sent to Fort Riley, Kansas
-Attached to the 9th Infantry Division
-Trained with them
(01:57:30) Becoming a Chaplain Pt. 2
-Went to Fuller Theological Seminary
-Inter-denominational seminary
-Prestigious seminary
-Didn’t think he would’ve been accepted into that seminary
-Good experience
(01:58:08) Deployment to Vietnam
-Part of the 3rd Battalion, 47th Infantry Regiment of the 9th Infantry Division at Fort Riley
-Shipped out of America on January 1, 1967
-Sent his wife and children to Ohio around Christmastime
-Returned to Fort Riley and held Christmas services
-Left by ship out of California in January 1967
-Arrived in Vietnam on January 19, 1967
(01:59:42) Arrival in Vietnam & Reassignment to 4th Battalion
-Went to Bearcat Base, the headquarters for the 9th Infantry Division
-Received more combat training
-During the final part of training, the division chaplain approached Bernie
-Told him he’d be reassigned to 4th Battalion
th
-Stayed with 4 Battalion for the rest of his tour in Vietnam
-Army Engineers built a base camp at Dong Tam for the 4th Battalion
(02:01:33) Missions & Combat in Vietnam
-Rotated on and off Navy ships
-Went through the Mekong River Delta to various outposts via armored troop carriers
-Had to contend with 10 – 12 foot tides
-Mostly Viet Cong forces operating in the Mekong Delta
-4th Battalion was tasked with search & destroy missions
-Got into a huge fight with the Viet Cong on June 19, 1967
-Took a lot of casualties
-Wanted to be with his soldiers in the field, regardless of combat
-Only missed one combat operation
-Tended to the wounded and helped gather the dead
-Lost 60 soldiers during his tour in Vietnam
-He was older than most of the men in his unit
-He was 36 years old when he went to Vietnam
-He was a captain, and other captains were in their mid-20s
-Went on combat marches with the troops
-Very close with C Company
-With them on the battle of June 19th
�-Originally supposed to be with A Company
-C Company commander wanted him to stay with C Company, so Bernie stayed
-C Company took 50 percent casualties during the battle
-Attends annual reunions for C Company
(02:07:50) Return to the United States
-Came back to the United States on January 1, 1968
-Landed north of San Francisco
-Flew to Chicago to meet his wife and be with her for a few days
-Went to Ohio to be with his wife and children
-Invited by the Ministerial Association of Wellington, Ohio, to speak about his time in Vietnam
-After his presentation, a couple girls from Oberlin College approached him to talk
-Group of antiwar protesters tried to confront Bernie about Vietnam
-He told them that he went to Vietnam to help soldiers, not fight
(02:12:00) Stationed at Fort Campbell
-Sent to Fort Campbell, Kentucky
-His division chaplain in Vietnam, Charles Meek, was the post chaplain at Fort Campbell
-Stationed there for 1 ½ years
-Worked with an engineer unit
-Made the stockade chaplain
(02:13:23) Stationed in West Germany
-Sent to West Germany
-Attached to the 5th Missile Battalion off the 6th Air Defense Artillery (Nike missiles)
-Operated out of Baumholder, Germany
-Stayed in Germany for three years
-Travelled to missile sites to minister to soldiers
-Taught himself to play guitar and sing hymns
-Drugs were an issue in Germany at the time
-Needed to counsel soldiers with drug addictions
-Given a basement area in an administrative building as a counselling area
-Connected with four soldiers and invited them to dinner at his home
-Formed a band with them
-Missiles were tipped with nuclear warheads
-Needed soldiers to be sober due to the severity of their job
(02:16:50) Further Education Pt. 1
-Returned to the United States in 1973
-Took the advanced course for chaplains from 1973-1974
-Studied for his master’s degree in counselling at Long Island University
-Promoted to major during his time there
(02:17:30) Stationed at Fort Sill
-Sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma
-Made the brigade chaplain for the 212th Field Artillery Brigade
-Wonderful assignment
-Almost retired from the Army while at Fort Sill
�-In a supervisory position and he didn’t enjoy it, just wanted to minister to soldiers
-Another chaplain convinced him to stay in the Army
-Convinced him by saying that supervisory positions are necessary
(02:19:24) Further Education Pt. 2
-Started a doctorate of ministry degree, but was unable to complete it
-Army sent him to Duke University to study world religions
-He enjoyed doing that
< Tape ends before interview ends >
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_WindmillerB2075V
Title
A name given to the resource
Windmiller, Bernie (Interview outline and video), 2016
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-26
Description
An account of the resource
Bernie Windmiller was born in Gary, Indiana, on July 3, 1932. The Army drafted him in 1954 and he received basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, then field radio training at Fort Knox, Kentucky. He was deployed to South Korea where he served on the demilitarized zone and at Daegu. He decided to become a chaplain, and upon completion of seminary, he reentered the Army as a chaplain. His first assignment was at Fort Riley, Kansas, with 3rd Battalion of the 47th Infantry Regiment of the 9th Infantry Division. He was deployed to Vietnam in January 1967 and was originally stationed at Bearcat Base. Shortly after arriving, he was reassigned to 4th Battalion. During his time in Vietnam, he operated in the Mekong River Delta and went on combat missions with the troops. He returned to the United States in January 1968, and was stationed at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. He then served in West Germany for three years with the 5th Missile Battalion of the 6th Air Defense Artillery (Nike nuclear missiles). He returned to the United States in 1973 and took the advanced course of chaplains, then got his master's degree at Long Island University. He served at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, with the 212th Artillery Brigade then went to Duke University.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Windmiller, Bernie
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Keizer, Herman Jr. (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f4cb38d8ec7b7ec185da95011f3b834.m4v
952919b31b46b3ee45c103e04b77b79d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4edf0bb8f46ae0951863b8a8a22b27ec.pdf
77b605dc1db55608ce00fa76f7637b5d
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Bill Williams
Vietnam War
2 hours 11 minutes 40 seconds
(00:00:15) Early Life Pt. 1
-Born in Muscatine, Iowa
-Grew up on a farm near Wapello, Iowa
-Born on December 20, 1941
-Went to high school in Wapello
-Played football
-Took a road trip one summer with some friends to Colorado
-Convinced him to attend college in Colorado
(00:01:24) Colorado State University & Army Reserve Officers' Training Corps Pt.
1
-Attended Colorado State University
-Always wanted to be in the Army so he joined the Army Reserve Officers' Training
Corps
-Mandatory two years of service
-Enjoyed being in the ROTC
-Got into the Advanced ROTC in his junior year
-Went to Fort Riley, Kansas for summer training
-Did well there
-Became the cadet regimental commander for half of his junior year
-Wanted to join the Army because of memories of World War Two and the Korean War
-Sounded enjoyable
-Wanted to travel and experience different things
(00:03:15) Early Life Pt. 2
-Family were farmers
-Grew up near the Iowa and Mississippi Rivers near Burlington, Iowa
(00:04:04) Colorado State University & Army Reserve Officers' Training Corps Pt.
2
-Graduated from college in 1963
-ROTC instructors were good
-Combat veterans from WWII and the Korean War
-One sergeant fought in the Pacific Theatre during WWII
-Another sergeant fought at Pointe du Hoc on D-Day then in Korea
-Taught Bill common sense things about being a good soldier
-Instructed the cadets how to kill
-Taught Bill about an officer's honor and how to manage well
-Went to Fort Riley, Kansas for summer training
-Learned about different leadership positions, from squad leader to company
commander
-Enjoyed training at Fort Riley
�-Lived in barracks
-Enjoyed being the cadet regimental commander, but felt he didn't do well with it
-Received his commission as a 2nd lieutenant when he graduated from college
(00:07:15) Overview of Events at Fort Benning
-Upon graduating from college he went to Fort Benning, Georgia
-Received Infantry Officer Basic Training
-Went to Jump School (learning how to be a paratrooper)
-From Fort Benning he was deployed to South Korea
(00:07:47) Infantry Officer Basic Training
-Taught how to call in artillery and mortar strikes
-Learned how to lead troops
-Learned about how to maintain vehicles
-Taught by an old warrant officer
-Trained solely at Fort Benning, Georgia
-Good variation of terrain
-Trained during the summer of 1963
(00:10:08) Jump School
-Stayed at Fort Benning for Jump School for three weeks
-Had to be in good shape
-Trained with 600 other soldiers
-First week of training was ground work
-Learning how to safely land
-Second week was tower training
-Jumping from a 34 foot tower and riding down on a wire
-Part of that second week was learning how to properly exit the plane
-Had to run everywhere
-Punished with push-ups
-Tower had a mock aircraft fuselage so trainees could learn how to jump out of a plane
-Fell six to ten feet then slid down the wire
-Meant to mimic the feeling of the chute opening on a real jump
-Third week of training he got to parachute out of an actual plane
-Flew over to Fryar Field in Alabama
-On his first jump he landed on his butt
-Got yelled at over that
-Supposed to run off the field
-Managed to walk off the field without getting yelled at
-Exhilarating experience
(00:16:02) Deployment to South Korea
-Received orders for South Korea
-Allowed to go home on leave before going to South Korea
-Visited his brother who was stationed at Fort Knox, Kentucky
-En route learned that President Kennedy had been assassinated
-Went home to Iowa for 30 days of leave
-Shipped out to South Korea in December 1963
-Flew out of Travis Air Force Base, California
(00:17:06) Stationed in South Korea
�-Landed at Kimpo Air Base near Seoul, South Korea
-Assigned to the 7th Infantry Division
-Used Military Pay Certificates (MPC) instead of dollars
-Went to the Officers' Club the first night in South Korea
-His unit was stationed south of the 1st Cavalry Division which was on the demilitarized
zone
-Had to do a 40 mile hike in the winter
-Led by two incompetent captains that got them lost
-Ran out of water and had to eat dirty snow
-He was platoon leader for 1st Platoon
-Platoon sergeant was a Korean War veteran
-Murdered by another GI when said GI tried to kill some military police
-Platoon sergeant went to confront the GI and was shot
-GI was shot and killed by a finance unit's guard
-Bill was acting company commander at the time
-Transferred to a mortar platoon to be its leader
-The soldiers he led were good men, but not well-educated
-Some couldn't even write letters properly
-They were good men though
-Got to see Seoul on one weekend
-Saw a lot of the Korean countryside
-Went on a 20 mile road march in the winter
-Saw women washing their clothes in a freezing river
-South Koreans were hard working people
-Had problems with thieves, and they were smart thieves
-Farmers were still as poor as they had been when Korea was a Japanese colony
-Seoul was modernizing, but there were still problems
-Air control tower at Kimpo still had bullet holes in it
-Had Korean Augmentation To the United States Army (KATUSA) soldiers attached to
his unit
-South Korean soldiers that were attached to the U.S. Army
-Had a South Korean sergeant, corporal, and private attached to his unit
-Sergeant gave orders to the corporal who then gave orders to the private
-Higher ranking soldiers beat lower ranking soldiers
-Commonplace and for mistakes and/or disobedience
-Left South Korea after a year and flew back into Travis Air Force Base
-Came home in November or December 1964
(00:27:56) Special Forces Training
-Volunteered for the Special Forces while he was in Korea
-Tonkin Gulf Incident happened while he was in Korea
-Applied for transfer to Vietnam
-Approved for Special Forces training before he was transferred though
-Sent to Fort Bragg, North Carolina for Special Forces Training
-It was interesting, but difficult
-Learned about explosives and guerrilla tactics
-First phase and it lasted three months
�-Learned how to fight guerrilla soldiers
-Second phase and it also lasted three months
-Trained by combat veterans from WWII and the Korean War
-Received Vietnamese language training from a sergeant that had served in WWII
-He had been part of the elite Devil's Brigade
-Moved around Fort Bragg for training
-Did training exercises and airborne jumps at night
-Training was geared toward fighting in Vietnam
-Had to do a swimming test after being given a large meal of soup and meatloaf
-Had to do three laps around a large pool
-Some men completed training early and got deployed to Vietnam
-Led to them getting killed in action
-Completed Special Forces Training in late 1965, or early 1966
(00:32:38) First Tour in Vietnam - Duties of the Special Forces
-Received leave upon completing Special Forces Training then deployed to Vietnam
-Flew out of Travis Air Force Base
-The function of the Green Berets was to set up outposts in enemy territory
-Similar to forts in the American West during the Indian Wars
-Trained indigenous Vietnamese to be anti-communist soldiers
-Conducted patrols around the outpost
-Keeping enemy forces out of the area of operations
(00:34:19) First Tour in Vietnam - First Outpost
-The first outpost he was stationed at was near Nha Trang and was the executive officer
-Very little enemy activity
-In May 1966 they discovered an enemy camp
-All but one of the Viet Cong soldiers retreated, the last man stood and fought
-A Montagnard soldier shot the Viet Cong soldier
-Montagnards: Indigenous people in Vietnam who were U.S. allies
-Took home a communist flag as a souvenir
-Dealt primarily with Viet Cong soldiers
-The first dead Viet Cong soldier he saw was an 18 year old girl
-Stayed at the first outpost until he was promoted to captain
(00:36:41) First Tour in Vietnam - Second Outpost
-Sent to Pleiku to be the funds officer at the Green Beret outpost there
-Stationed there for four months
-Responsible for $1 million
-Had to go to Saigon to get the money and bring it back to Pleiku once a month
-Had to find travel on his own for a while
-On one night he got stuck in Laos
-Used the money to pay the indigenous soldiers
-Some areas were quiet in terms of enemy activity while others were more active
-Remembers escorting a stripper from the USO to Plei Me
-Area was under attack most of the time, but it was never overrun
-At the time it felt like the United States was winning
-Knew there were problems with American politics
-Had issues with the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnamese
�soldiers)
-Many were corrupt, but others were good fighters
(00:42:27) Returning to the United States
-Flew back to the United States
-People were indifferent or outright rude to Vietnam veterans
-That was of course unless you were wearing a Green Beret
-Returned to the U.S. in early 1967
-Spent leave home in Iowa
-People in Iowa were more friendly toward him than other civilians
(00:43:29) Stationed at Fort Benning Pt. 1
-Assigned to Fort Benning to be an Infantry Instructor at the Infantry School
-Had to do a three week course to learn how to be an Infantry Instructor
-Went to class eight hours a day
-More difficult than college
-Taught a small arms course
-Taught soldiers how to "snap shoot"
-How to unconsciously and accurately shoot to kill
(00:44:54) Weapons in Vietnam
-Used the M16 assault rifle in Vietnam and later a carbine variant of the M16
-Had a "four deuce" (M2 4.2 inch mortar) on one of the outposts in Vietnam
-The Viet Cong had mortars, but weren't very accurate
-Usually fired off rounds quickly then fled which meant his unit never took
casualties
(00:46:55) Stationed at Fort Benning Pt. 2
-He was stationed at Fort Benning for 18 months
-Went to Infantry Officer Advanced Course
-Learned about logistics and strategy for larger units like companies and
battalions
-It was useful training
(00:49:08) Redeployment to Vietnam
-Had to return to Vietnam for a second tour in Vietnam
-Men that had gone to West Point only had to do one tour in Vietnam
-Knew he would be assigned to the 101st Airborne Division
-Unit had a good reputation and he was happy to be assigned to the 101st
(00:50:47) Arrival in Vietnam
-Returned to Vietnam in November or December 1969
-Knew that he would be stationed in I Corps near the demilitarized zone
-Landed at Tan Son Nhut near Saigon
-From there flew up to Cam Ranh Bay and right into a sandstorm
-Huts were filled with sand
-From Cam Ranh Bay flew to a shoddy camp in I Corps
-Taken by truck to the Screaming Eagle Replacement Training School
-Went on an introdcutory patrol and got ambushed
-Called in helicopter gunships
-Was a company commander during his time at SERTS
(00:55:13) 3rd Brigade Headquarters
�-He was sent to the 3rd Brigade Headquarters
-Requested an assignment to a rifle company
-There were no open slots for a company commander though
-Most battalions had too many captains anyway
-Requested to stay at 3rd Brigade Headquarters until a slot opened
-Assigned to be the assistant-S3 officer (operations and planning)
-S-3 officer was a good officer to work for
-Colonel Bradley was the brigade commander
-He was a WWII veteran and a West Point graduate
-Good man to serve under
-Responsible for getting Bill an assignment as a rifle company commander
-Worked as the assistant-S3 officer for four months
-There was some minor, local fighting during his time at 3rd Brigade Headquarters
(00:59:35) Assignment to Bravo Company
-Assigned to a rifle company in late March 1970
-Bravo Company 2nd Battalion 506th Infantry Regiment 101st Airborne Division
-Had to wait four or five days to get out to the field due to bad weather
(01:01:15) Establishing Firebase Ripcord
-Operation Texas Star began on March 12, 1970
-Attempt to rebuild the abandoned Firebase Ripcord
-Bravo Company got eight replacements
-On April 1, 1970 Bravo Company air assaulted onto the hill that Ripcord would be built
on
-There were 100 men in his company plus support personnel
-Took mortar fire as soon as they landed
-Colonel Lucas and Major Koenigsbauer began directing artillery fire against the enemy
mortars
-Started to take casualties
-One of his platoon lieutenants was killed in action by a mortar
-Seven or eight men were killed and about 20 men were wounded
-Half of the Pathfinders were able to land
-Other half could not land due to heavy enemy fire
-At dusk they received orders to withdraw to a nearby hill Alpha Company was on
-Helicopters tried to come in to collect the dead, but couldn't land
-They buried the dead at Ripcord instead so they could be recovered later
-Walked down the side of the hill Ripcord was on
-Contacted A Company and told them that B Company was approaching their position
-Safely got to A Company without running into enemy soldiers
-They were supposed to be airlifted out of the field the next day
-Heavy fog rolled in which made it impossible for helicopters to come in
-Moved down to Delta Company's position
-Had trouble contacting D Company
-B Company was running out of food and ammunition
-D Company commander was a good man
-Made sure that B Company was able to rest
-Separated from D Company the next day
�-They ran out food because they thought that they were going to reestablish Firebase
Ripcord
-Walked around in the jungle for a while before getting resupplied
(01:15:27) Patrols near Firebase Ripcord
-After trying to reestablish Firebase Ripcord they were airlifted back to the rear
-Stayed in the rear for a short time
-Command didn't want the soldiers in the rear too long because it led to
problems
-Returned to the field in mid-April 1970 and conducted patrols aroud Firebase Ripcord
-Didn't make a lot of contact with North Vietnamese troops from April-June
-Discovered a lot of freshly built bunkers and huts
-Usually empty, but had been occupied
-Called in artillery to destroy the fortifications
-He made sure that the men in his company shaved while in the field
-Maintaining discipline, but also to prevent infection
-Normally the platoons operated separately
-Stayed with a platoon for a few days then rotated to another one
-Platoons went on patrols around the company command post to secure the area
-Company command post was whatever platoon he was with
-Never got ambushed
-Some of his platoons made contact with North Vietnamese troops closer to Firebase
Ripcord
-One of his platoons encountered an NVA platoon heading toward Ripcord
(01:22:15) Fighting on Hill 805
-Moved to Hill 805 in early July 1970
-Air assaulted to a landing zone near Hill 805
-Watched as Cobra gunships bombarded the NVA on top of Hill 805
-He was on one of the first helicopters into the landing zone
-The landing zone was lower than Hill 805 which meant the enemy had the high ground
-Someone finally neutralized the NVA soldier firing down on the landing zone
-His company took two casualties
-One man was shot in the arm and another was shot in the back
-He moved to the far side of the landing zone until another a platoon landed
-One platoon went up Hill 805 and the other platoon stayed at the landing zone
-That night the landing zone took enemy fire
-NVA were trying to figure out U.S. troop strength at Hill 805
-Fortunately, they couldn't figure out where the U.S. troops were
-The night after that Charlie Company was wiped out on Hill 902
-C Company's commander made two critical errors, one of which was his
fault:
-Stayed on Hill 902 two nights in a row (ordered to, not his
decision)
-He set up a hammock on top of the hill in plain sight (his fault)
-C Company was overrun and had to wipe out the attacking NVA
-B Company was ordered to withdraw from Hill 805 to be replaced by C Company
-While waiting to get airlifted off Hill 805 he set up his radio
�-Lightning struck the tree next to him which traveled down his radio
antenna
-Shock threw him fifteen feet down the hill
(01:33:37) Stationed at Firebase Ripcord
-Received orders to pull back to Firebase Ripcord
-Once they landed he went to see the firebase surgeon, Dr. Harris
-Learned that one of his eardrums had been blown out
-B Company took over security at Firebase Ripcord
-Bill was made the S3 officer to replace Major Koenigsbauer
-Koenigsbauer was sent to division headquarters
-Due to Army protocol officers had to be rotated to different positions after six
months
-Led to experienced officers getting replaced with inexperienced officers
-Meant that Bill would be in the tactical operations center with Colonel Lucas
-B Company took up defensive positions in bunkers on the perimeter of Ripcord
-Every night at 5 PM they had staff meetings in the TOC and always took enemy artillery
fire
(01:38:49) Siege of Firebase Ripcord
-Over the course of July the fighting around Ripcord got worse and turned into a siege
-More artillery fire and enemy soldiers trying to get through the wire and mines
-A Chinook resupply helicopter came in on July 18, took enemy fire, and crashed
-The fuel spilled out, caught fire, and caused the ammunition dump to explode
-Took seven or eight hours for all of the ammunition to cook off
-One soldier panicked and ran down the hill through the wire defenses
-Mistaken for being an NVA soldier and got shot at
-Fortunately, he wasn't killed or wounded
(01:43:29) Getting Wounded
-At another staff meeting Dr. Harris said there was a group of GIs standing around the
TOC
-Bill went outside and told them to get away from the TOC
-Would attract attention from the NVA mortars near the firebase
-An artillery shell came in and exploded near Bill
-It threw him down the stairs into the TOC and he sustained severe
wounds
-Crushed skull, broken jaw, severed jugular vein, and shrapnel
wounds
-Dr. Harris stopped the bleeding
-Wounded before Firebase Ripcord fell on July 23, 1970
(01:46:59) Recovery Overseas
-He was evacuated to Charlie Med (hospital) in Khe Sanh
-Unconscious for five days
-Woke up to find tubes running out of his body and a Red Cross nurse standing
over him
-Able to dictate a letter home to her
-Moved to Camp Drake, Japan
-Spent three weeks there
�-Kept in a large warehouse-type building that was used as the hospital
-Severely wounded on one side, minor cases on the other, latrines in the
middle
-Had nightmares every night because he couldn't find his rifle
-Finally convinced himself that he was no longer in danger
-Moved to the convalescent ward
-Received a lot of letters from family and friends from home
-Flown to the Philippines and told get food at the Officers' Club
(01:53:56) Recovery in the United States
-Flown to Travis Air Force Base, California and sent to a hospital
-Told he had a free phone call home
-Red Cross nurse called home for him because his jaw was wired shut
-Transferred to Letterman Army Medical Center in San Francisco
-Could see Alcatraz Island from the hospital
-Could see the Native Americans who had occupied the island
-Escaped the hospital during the day to go into San Francisco
-Watched the cleanup operations after two oil tankers collided in the bay
-Drank wine with other patients at night
-On Thursdays they had to be examined by oral surgeons
-Hated it
-Spent eight and a half months in the hospital
-Given leave twice
-Got married in Akron, Alabama on one leave
-Married 45 years as of February 2016
-Met his wife while he was at Fort Benning
-Had to eat liquid foods
-Worst ones were liquid fish and liquid beets
-Experienced an earthquake
(02:01:15) End of Service
-After he recovered he was sent to Fort Carson, Colorado
-Made the assistant S3 officer for the brigade there
-Able to get up late and leave work early
-Had a lot of men from Vietnam who only had three months of service left
-Came up with a plan to walk from New Mexico to Wyoming along the Continental
Divide
-Something to occupy the soldiers that had time left, but nothing to do
-Received approval for the plan and 24 men volunteered to go on the hike
-Trained by doing hikes on Pikes Peak
-Hiked from the New Mexico state line to the Wyoming border
-Had supply points along the way
-Took 50 days
-Started with 24 men and only three had to drop out for various reasons
-Only took six pictures
-Preoccupied with the mules they brought with them
-Issued a ration and a half a day because they were burning so many
calories
�-Got a week off after the hike
-Able to spend time with his wife and baby son
(02:07:03) Life after the Army
-Developed psychomotor-epilepsy from his head wound
-Given a medical retirement by the Army
-Developed Bell's palsy, thiroiditis, and a blood disease after he left the Army
-Given Social Security due to unemployability
-Unable to be around people for long periods of time
-Lives in the mountains of Colorado
-Wife is understanding
-Used to raise horses and take care of his children
-Wife worked at the Post Office
-Moved to some property in Lake George, Colorado and built a house and a barn
(02:10:40) Reflections on Service
-Hard to leave the Army and still misses the brotherhood he felt in the Army
-The best and worst parts of his service happened while he was in Vietnam
-Made friends, but also lost friends too
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_WilliamsW1892V
Title
A name given to the resource
Williams, William J (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-10
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Williams was born in Muscatine, Iowa on December 20, 1941. He attended Colorado State University and was part of the Army ROTC, graduating and receiving his commission in 1963. He went to Fort Benning, Georgia for Infantry Officer Basic Training and Jump School (paratrooper training). He spent a year stationed in South Korea serving as a platoon leader in the 7th Infantry Division. After South Korea he returned to the United States and received Special Forces Training at Fort Bragg, North Carolina and in early 1966 he was deployed to Vietnam. He served at a Green Beret outpost in Nha Trang and at another outpost in Pleiku until early 1967. He took the Infantry Officer Advanced Course and was a small arms instructor at Fort Benning, Georgia for eighteen months. He was redeployed to Vietnam in December 1969 and was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division. He served as the assistant S3 officer at 3rd Brigade Headquarters for four months until he was assigned to be the company commander of Bravo Company 2nd Battalion 506th Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division. He carried out patrols around Firebase Ripcord in spring 1970 and fought at Hill 805 until B Company moved to Firebase Ripcord in July 1970 and experienced the siege of Ripcord. Shortly before the fall of Ripcord he was severely wounded and was medically evacuated. He received treatment in Vietnam, Japan, and California before completing his service at Fort Carson, Colorado.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Williams, William J.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Moving Image
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ba5f97b176dffec193c0212fdc5d7075.mp4
66f5de71a763809b5b33e52fd34454fd
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75fcad0eb4e0119d74693edc4129cda9.pdf
82d7b1e08ccefd6414c61021d6dd8ed8
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam
Name of Interviewee: Roger Williams
Length of Interview: 00:27:10
Background:
He spoke in his native language to the interviewer.
What he said was that his name means “little fat pig.” His grandmother gave him that
name. He also has a spirit name.
He feels very honored for being invited to participate in this project.
He was born August 1940, in Holland, Michigan.
He served in the United States Air Force. His highest rank was E4.
He served two periods, from 1957-1961 at San Antonio.
He served at a hospital there for some time.
He got out in 1961 and got back in to serve in the Vietnam War in 1962 and would serve
until 1967.
He did not go to Vietnam and was not in combat.
He enlisted in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
He was raised in Holland until he was 12 years old. Although he has a Native American
heritage, he is mostly Dutch. He would have loved to take part in the Tulip Time parade,
but that never happened.
He went to high school in Muskegon but did not finish. He would finish high school
while he was in the service and started college while he was in the service also.
He made a great number of friends while he was in the service. He actually was able to
reach out to a friend who he went to medical school with in Montgomery. His daughter
would find him over Facebook. He doesn’t know what will happen but he hopes to
reconnect with him.
He had quit high school and things were not going so well for him. He had great work
ethic, but the jobs were not that good.
At 17 he was starting to get in trouble.
When he was still in school, he went into his school’s counselor’s office, and asked about
what he should do. The man told him that if he graduated with a B average, he would
help him get into the US Naval Academy.
As a poor kid with little support, it didn’t occur to him that it was a wonderful offer. So
when he was 17, he started to think about it some more, and thought the military was a
good place for him to be.
So he joined the Air Force.
Training (6:54)
When he first went into the Air Force they had a 12 weeks basic training program.
He was a pretty unrestricted man, so basic training was very good for him. It gave him
discipline, it gave him boundaries; it gave him a better way of life.
Following basic training, he went to a medical prep school for about 8 weeks.
�
In this he learn the basics of how the hospital is run, the history of medicine, etc.
Following that he went to a school in Montgomery, Alabama. He thought about being a
field medic, but they wanted him to be an Administrative Medic.
So when he got to San Antonio, he was basically helping to run the hospital.
Adapting to military life was a big change for his life. It was a little difficult and it kind
of stressed him out. He wasn’t a very big guy, but he did what he had to change.
Active Duty (9:30)
During the first part of his career, most of his time was served at the hospital, in San
Antonio.
He did a lot of administrative work, such as choosing which patients to admit. He was
responsible for sending telegrams when someone died.
There were responsibilities for taking inventory of who came in and who died in what
way.
One of the most traumatic experiences he had was when he had to do an inventory on
dead person’s personal effects, which was zero. The guy had crashed a plane and his
body was in a lot of different pieces in the rubble and dirt.
Opening the bag up and seeing the dirt, he thought they were playing a joke on him at
first, but it was quite a shocker for him when he found out a body was actually in there.
Another one was a Mexican boy’s body came in and he had to do inventory on him.
When he pulled the sheet back, the boy looked exactly like him, with his head caved in.
And that was a shocker.
The second part of his service was spent in Miami. It was party city for him.
The Cuban Crisis came along and he was at the Homestead air base.
He had first-hand experience with his time during this time.
Following the Cuban Crisis, John Kennedy came to the base and awarded them a special
award.
He would then go to Germany, which was also a lot of fun. There was still a lot of work
to be done.
While there, he was the administrator.
He would then move to France, just outside of Paris. He was able to Paris in his off time
and go to the Paris Opera House. He got to see a lot of artistic things he got to see
including the Mona Lisa and Cleopatra’s Needle.
He would also go to museums there as well. (15:20)
While he was there, the war was still going on. He would be there prepping guys for war
and taking care of those who came back from war.
He would read the newspapers and read about how so many of those guys were dying and
it bothered him tremendously.
The people of the USA were starting to speak out against the war.
It was his time to get out and he did.
He feels bad because the job was not getting done and it was the soldiers who were
paying the price.
Post Duty and other stories (18:05)
�
It is always difficult when a friend dies. When he was in France, a buddy of his was
driving to Paris one night and had a seizure and he and the passenger died. It was a pretty
bad time for him because he was on duty when they brought the bodies in.
They came in and he didn’t know about the accident yet. He walked in and saw their
bodies lying on the slab and that’s when he found out.
He was not mistreated when he came home from the service, while serving in Vietnam.
His family was there for him when he came home and they were very supportive. He has
a way in his community where they truly honor veterans.
The guys who came home from Vietnam were treated badly. It was horrible and quite
real.
One of the things that the community doesn’t know is that natives have a higher rate of
enlistees than the whole. 1 of 4 compared to 1 of 10
Part of that is no so much that we are loyal, but they have a real sense of connection to
the earth around them. Veterans are represented in a different way because of the culture.
In order to honor the customs of his community, he gives the interviewer some items
from his culture, in exchange for letting him be a part of this project.
He continues to serve his community; to show it he collects buttons, awards and other
patches.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WilliamsRo
Title
A name given to the resource
Williams, Roger (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Williams, Roger
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Williams is a Native American who served in the United State Air Force as a medical Administrator in two separate tours between 1957 and 1967. He was stationed in Texas, Florida and Germany, and was at the Homestead , Florida, air base at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Kimes, Emily (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Air Force
Indians of North America
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-06-04
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b59fcb6a4943a971d35bcb530b6fa5cb.mp4
6200240748770ef8d622d42df91fdef6
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/be48a1c44270e9dad322de80fb89d599.pdf
9f3a343ddd27dd9d68d65c09f483f05d
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
JEFFREY WILCOX
Born: Nyack, New York
Resides: Saugatuck, Michigan
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 1, 2013
Interviewer: Mr. Wilcox, can you start by giving us a little bit of background about
yourself, where and when were you born?
I was born August the 23rd 1946 in Nyack, New York.
Interviewer: What did your family do?
My father was into heavy industry and in those days you were moved at will, and we
rather quickly ended up in Gary, Indiana with the U.S. Steel Company.
Interviewer: How old were you when you moved out there?
I turned seven that summer, so I went from there through high school in Gary.
Interviewer: Did you go to public school, or Catholic?
Public schools
Interviewer: What were public schools in Gary, Indiana like in the 1950’s?
Ozzie and Harriett or Leave it to Beaver would be the way to categorize the city at the
time. Prosperity was high, the mills were producing more than any place on the planet,
my wife says, “We don‟t trust air we can‟t see”, and you could see the air real clearly in
those years. 1:09 It was an interesting place to grow up.
Interviewer: I remember being a kid and driving past Gary coming out of Chicago,
and at seven years old asking my mother, “Mom, where’s Gary?” She said, “See
that big black cloud over there? That’s Gary”.
1
�A red cloud usually
Interviewer: At that distance, at the time, you remember that, but on the whole that
would be a period when wages were good, so you have a pretty good middle class
existence even at the worker level. Was your father in management?
Yes, sort of mid to low level management and he was a superintendent in yard and
transportation, moving stuff in and out of the mills. Everybody either worked in the mill
or prospered from the people who worked in the mill, so it was the life blood. Our school
was a WPA project and it was really rather gorgeous, I now know. 2:01 It had these
extraordinary murals in it of American industry, which have now, I understand, been
obliterated by subsequent remodeling of the school. We were “baby boomers”, there was
an elementary school built for us, so we were the first kids into an elementary school.
Gary, actually, has a history of innovation in education and I now know that in the midfifties for a woman to get a hold of a school, as the principal and go through the school
system and pick the teachers that she wanted made for a—it was really a very exciting
environment in elementary school. We loved it.
Interviewer: Then the—let’s see, when did you finish high school?
1964, June of 1964
Interviewer: Now, you went straight into West Point.
July 1
Interviewer: Tell me, what made you decide to go there in the first place?
That‟s a good question. I always was attracted to the rigor, the notion of the rigor. 3:07
I always—growing up in the wake of WWII saw military service as the just and right
thing and it just had a hold on me from about the sixth grade, and I started working on it.
2
�Back then, the only was a sort of political process. You had to see how many letters you
could stack up on the congressman‟s desk and I didn‟t have a lot of connections, so
basically it was trying to meet people, go on a sales call, and ask them to write a letter on
your behalf. I ended up lined up in third place for a spot. The number two guy didn‟t do
quite well enough on the College Board, so I was moved to second. The number one guy
was—he was really a talented, rounded guy, and I was told, when I got my letter two
weeks before I was to report, that something had been determined about an injury to his
elbow. 4:10 I later learned I had a much worse injury to my knee than had ever
happened to his elbow, so I have this distinction of lying my way into the army in the
1960‟s.
Interviewer: There were not that many of you doing that at that point.
So, who knew, but the deal was—my brother had to drop out of college because of
money and he was working at the local windshield wiper factory, and he was a good kid.
They said that when I graduated from high school I could have his job, so he could go
back to college. So, I was going to be a life guard that summer and he was going to go
back to college and I was going to go into the windshield wiper factory and I was saved,
just totally saved.
Interviewer: Now, did you actually have to have a letter from a congressman,
ultimately, was that still part of the process? 5:05
You had to be appointed, and I received a telegram saying that I was the second alternate
to a position, and then I gave up.
Interviewer: Who did you have support from? What kind of people did you go visit
to do this?
3
�My neighbor was the private secretary to the mayor. I called on people who were in
business who were graduates and I don‟t recall how I learned who they were, and then
my high school coaches and my minister and people like that wrote things on my behalf.
To some extent it was, “how high is your stack” and to some extent it was who wrote it,
so I did well enough to get on the list anyway.
Interviewer: so, when do you actually arrive in West Point?
July 1, 1964
Interviewer: What was your first impression of the place when you got there? 6:01
It pretty well comported with my image, and we were all, of course,--you take
accomplished kids and it‟s all about, in minutes, convincing them that they have no right
to be there and that they are the worst person in the world, and whatever made me think I
had the ability to do this, and sort of even people out and rebuild them the way the
institution wants.
Interviewer: How do they go about doing that, a lot of sergeants yelling at you?
Yeah, the people who are conducting this are the third and fourth year guys, so it starts
very rudely with, at least in that era, with reporting to a guy in a red sash who‟s standing
out in the middle of this open space and you walk over to him and kind of want to say,
“Hi”, and he starts disciplining you right there. 7:05 He said, “Drop that bag”, so I put
the bag down and he said, “I didn‟t tell you to put it down, I told you to drop the bag, so
pick it up”, so you pick it up, and pick it up, and start right then with not questioning, just
doing exactly what I tell you. I broke a bottle of cologne in my bag doing that. Later,
when I was one of those guys, I remember peeking out of a window just as the first of
4
�them were starting to come in that I, actually, welled up, I felt so badly for these guys, but
we delivered anyway.
Interviewer: What did the first year curriculum consist of? What were you doing
or how were you spending your time?
Well, we carried an academic load of around twenty to twenty-two hours in today‟s
standard, and then there was reveille, marching to breakfast, going to class, marching to
lunch, going to class, parades, and intermurals are a big part of West Point. 8:09
Everyone‟s is always involved with sports in a wide range of them, not just football,
basketball and baseball, but squash and thing like that to teach you these games. PE in
the first year was a major challenge. There was wrestling, boxing, survival swimming
and gymnastics, and it was all rigorous stuff.
Interviewer: How did you hold up through all that?
I made it, and I had been trained as a life guard in high school, so I had a little bit of a leg
up on the survival swimming thing, although mostly you‟re in a pool with boots and
clothes on and it‟s just exhausting. So, then there‟s staying awake at night enough at
night to study and the class rigor was rigorous, you know, every day, in mathematics
especially, every day you recite at a blackboard, or standing in front of the instructor.
9:10 It was daunting, but it gets you to think on your feet, and speak on your feet, and
that‟s really what the training was about, and in my day, the curriculum was general
engineering, basically, applied mathematics.
Interviewer: Were the instructors’ military, civilian, or both?
Military, I never had a civilian instructor, but there are some now, I think.
mostly grads who were back after graduate school.
5
They were
�Interviewer: Now, during the course of that first year, do you get a chance to go
home or get out of there, or did you have breaks?
Yes, actually, ours was the first class that was permitted to go home at Christmas, and I
really wish we had not, because it was horrible coming back, so that was the one break,
and then in the spring break, where the upper classes take off for, basically, an extra-long
weekend, and the fourth classmen, the first year people are left in charge of the place.
10:13 My girlfriend, now wife, came to visit during that, but generally speaking it‟s a
pretty cloistered existence.
Interviewer: How does the experience change from year to year while you are
there?
Oh dramatically, as soon as that first year is over you‟re a real person and then every
summer, as different training things associated with it, that first summer afterwards, the
whole class is out at a camp on the reservation, for pure military, for sixty days, and each
summer we got thirty days off, we were paid by the way.
Interviewer: What would you do with your time off?
I usually came out here to Michigan to visit my future wife‟s family and sponge off the
family. 11:06
Interviewer: So, you’re there, so how long, total, were you then at West Point?
Four years
Interviewer: 1964 to 1968, now this is, of course, an interesting time in terms of
American history and what’s going on with the military because the Vietnam War
was ramping up significantly. How much attention were you paying to all of that as
you were going through West Point?
6
�It was constant, I mean because we all knew people who were dying and that would be
reported at the evening meal. The instruction began to change to accommodate the kind
of tactics that were being called for, just as it‟s been changed now for Iraq and
Afghanistan, so it was a constant topic.
Interviewer: Did you have people coming back from Vietnam and kind of talking
about what they were experiencing and doing and so forth?
Very much so, the faculty was all guys who had been to Vietnam and were back, so they
had a lot to impart and it was really useful, actually. 12:04
Interviewer: What was the morale of the cadets like as they’re going through this
and the war is escalating?
It was high because we knew we had volunteered for this, and so, you take your lumps. I
don‟t remember if it was 1966 or 1967 when General Westmoreland came back to
address congress, basically, attempting to get more troops assigned, and since he had
come all that way, he came up for dinner one night, because he‟s a grad, and he addressed
us all. The way he put it was, “Don‟t worry men, if they call it off now, it will take long
enough to wind down, that you‟ll all still go”, so what we had in Vietnam, in my opinion,
was a great live fire exercise in which people could prove their mettle and build their
resumes and make their careers and that‟s the way a lot of people looked at it. 13:09
This is my chance to do what I‟ve trained for.
Interviewer: Was the general message coming out, one that we were winning, that
we were doing it right? What was presented to the public and the congress for quite
some time was that everything was a great success, at least up until Tet. That was
7
�the public impression that you were getting from the veterans and from what you
knew within West Point?
You know, I don‟t remember there being any drum beating. Most of the time you would
be talking to a young Captain, and then you‟re talking about the sort of nitty gritty
aspects of tactics and that sort of thing, so we didn‟t have a lot of conversation about the
global purpose and so forth. 14:01
Interviewer: Right
That had to sort of dawn on me along the way.
Interviewer: So, at that point you’re focusing much more on just the physical,
practical and immediate problems with what you going to do when you’re out there
in the field in this situation you’re at, and small unit tactics and leadership and that
kind of thing.
Now, there was a great sentiment among us for people who were our age, college age,
who were protesting the war. We understood what they were saying and no one held
them in any disregard, which was interesting. We actually practiced, our color guards
practiced, defending the flag with these ceremonial bayonets in the event there should be
some disruption of sorts, but none of us felt any animosity toward these people, and I
don‟t recall anyone speaking in those terms, we‟re just in a different pack. 15:04
Interviewer: What sort of contact did you have with people, maybe, who were
protesting or things like that?
Personally not that much, although back then Armed Forces Day was a big deal in New
York and there was a huge parade down 5th Avenue, and in the order of march, the cadets
at West Point go first in any military parade, and it just so happened my third year, my
8
�junior year, I was in the front rank of the front unit, there were just a few people out
ahead of us, and we were coming right along Central Park down 5th Avenue and a bunch
of students, or young people, rushed out and plopped down in the middle of 5th Avenue
with flowers in their arms and we went into marking time. It took about that long (snap
of the fingers) for the New York City police to grab them by the arms and haul them off
the street. 16:02 Then we proceeded, and here we were marching across all these
flowers that these kids had dropped and we felt badly about it, because you can talk out
of the side of your mouth or talk without turning your head and there was a lot of
conversation about it, and we felt badly. It was on the front page of the New York
Times.
Interviewer: Did you have occasions to be kind of in New York on your own while
you were a cadet in the middle of all of this?
Yeah, there was the occasion where we had a thing called “the fine arts forum” and we
called it “the culture club” because it was a way to get out for the weekend so, we had to
go the Huntington Hartford Gallery, and we had to go to the ballet. You learned to like
ballet in the process, but at the time it was just a device. So, we went in the Huntington
Hartford Gallery, which is at the south west corner of Central Park, and we went up and
down in there real fast and out the door, I did it. 17:02 When we came out the door was
the gathering for the great “hippie” rally in Central Park, and these young people
streaming into the park all being really pleasant with us, and if I‟d of had my wits about
me I would have gone and witnessed it, but I was more interested in getting back to the
hotel and changing out of my uniform.
Interviewer: Right
9
�We went off, so I came that close to a historic event.
Interviewer: When was in terms of the war?
That would have been in 1966
Interviewer: Okay, was that the start of your junior year?
Spring of 1966
Interviewer: It might have been 1967
It might have been 1967
Interviewer: It depends if it was actually fall or spring I guess.
I think it was spring
Interviewer: Probably early 1967. So, at that stage then there was not necessarily
animosity, or hostility, directed toward men in uniform, because part of the postVietnam story later stuff is, people didn’t want to be seen in their uniforms. 18:00
People would say bad thing and so forth, but if you go back there, at least early
1967, even in New York, which is a place where you might expect people to do all
sorts of stuff, it wasn’t really working that way, at least not for you.
No, it never worked that way for me. I later discovered there were some people who
were uneasy about me in the business setting, but nobody ever said anything to me. I was
actually hired at IBM because I was a veteran, because the people at IBM that do the
hiring, are the managers for whom you‟re going to work, and the guy who hired me was a
veteran and he liked it, so I actually benefited from it in that respect.
Interviewer: All right, when did you then graduate from West Point?
June of 1968
Interviewer: So, the Tet Offensive---
10
�The day Bobby Kennedy was shot
Interviewer: Okay, and so what was going through your head at about that point in
time? 19:01 You’re finishing up and all this stuff is going on.
I was getting married too and it was very interesting. In January of 1968 our branches
were already determined. I was going to be in the infantry and I‟m still not sure how it
works now, but back then you would, by branch, be herded into a room and there would
be a map of the world there with assignments, so that you could pick your first
assignment. The guys who weren‟t getting married were all picking the glamour units in
Vietnam and I‟m sitting there listening to General Westmoreland tell me, “Don‟t worry,
I‟m going to go”. I was looking at the map and there were three assignments in Berlin, so
it came my name and I said, “I‟ll go to Berlin”, and so, for the first year of being married- and then there was a lot of training after graduation, and Ranger School, Airborne
School, those tickets being punched. 20:05 We got to Berlin in January of 1969 and
this is probably more detail than you want, but tours in Germany were three year tours.
They were still called three year tours, if you were cut short of a tour by less than a year
the army owed you money for the relocation of family, so I stayed 365 days in Germany.
I got my orders at ten months to leave on the 365th day, so they didn‟t have to pay any
money, but, Berlin was a fascinating experience.
Interviewer: Let’s backtrack a little bit. You’re talking about going through
training schools and so forth. They put you—basically you were at that point not
assigned to a unit yet when you graduated from West Point?
I was headed for a unit, but went into a training phase. 21:02
11
�Interviewer: Was it just for that unit and it’s type of work there or for different
things?
No, it was officer basic training, there was a great—the army is smart enough to not give
West Point people any real advantage. Our four years at West Point we carried active
duty ID‟s, but the time didn‟t count, and we went through the same track that everybody
did, so we went to an officer basic course at Fort Benning, which led into Ranger School,
which then Airborne School and then off to wherever you were going to go, so that was
very general training.
Interviewer: What kind of interaction relationship was there between the officer
candidates who were coming from other programs, or whatever, and the ones
coming out of West Point? Did you all just mix together?
Yeah, people from the Citadel, VMI, and ROTC programs, we were all mixed together
and everybody got along great. No one ever, I never saw any friction in that regard.
22:06
Interviewer: The West Point people were not holding themselves up as higher, they
weren’t being viewed as being a bunch of snobs by the other ones?
No, not that I ever experienced
Interviewer: How much integration was there in the officer corps at this point?
Not much, are talking about racial integration?
Interviewer: Yeah
Not much, we had several African Americans in my class, several Asian Americans, and
then the military academy has always drawn from protectorates and foreign countries, so
there was a fellow in my company the year behind me who was Costa Rican, for
12
�example, so there was that degree of integration. The integration that you mostly felt was
being with people from all fifty states and all the protectorates that was fascinating.
23:01 But no, the army was not—it was headed that way, but it wasn‟t there yet.
Interviewer: So, you work your way through all of this, did your wife go down to
Georgia with you?
Yeah
Interviewer: Did you live on base or off?
Off
Interviewer: What was that experience like? You’ve been living in Indiana,
Michigan, New York, those kinds of places, how much of a culture shock was there
to go down there to Fort Benning?
In most respects not much, but it‟s interesting that you brought up the racial question
because we were downtown in Columbus Georgia one Sunday morning, we‟d gone to
some breakfast place, and we walked out on the sidewalk and an old black man wearing
bib overalls leaped off of the sidewalk to get out of the way of my wife, who was shaken
by it, and still I am. We both went running over and dragged him back up onto the
sidewalk. 24:06 I mean, we grew up in a town that was sixty-five percent black and we
were not accustomed to being around black people, but we were sure unaccustomed to
that kind of behavior and that was shocking. Otherwise, it was mostly hanging out with
the other young marrieds and going to work.
Interviewer: Okay, so you work your way through that phase and then you go over,
you go to Berlin. Now, what unit were you assigned to there, when you went to
Berlin?
13
�The 18th Infantry, it was an infantry brigade in Berlin, an artillery company and then there
was us, the French, and the Brits, and if you looked at the—we actually had the arrogance
to suggest that this force was holding back the five Russian divisions that were around
the city. I mean, they would have hung a “prisoner of war” sign on the wire and that
would have been it. 25:02 If you looked at the perimeter of Berlin, down the center,
east and west, and then the sector border between West Berlin and East Germany, the
defensive plan, we took up, the French, Brits, and Americans, took up about a third of it
and the Berlin police force took up the rest, they were trained militarily, they were
something else, those guys. I did have the experience of patrolling the wall and the sector
border, and because we had the rite to cross the wall, the military did, we were
encouraged to do it so as to not lose the rite. At that time you exchanged one American
dollar for four western marks, you exchanged one western mark for four east marks, so
when you went across it was at sixteen to one on the dollar. 26:03 the lowliest private
could go to the best restaurant in East Berlin and you couldn‟t help being an ugly
American throwing money around, so there we were in our 1968 Pontiac working our
way through “Checkpoint Charlie” to get over to—my wife and I, you had to go in
uniform and then cruising around in East Berlin, which was a somber and sobering
experience because West Berlin was vibrant and multi-cultural and just a high energy
place, and East Berlin was gray and very somber. Kids would speak to you out of the
corner of their mouths and that kind of thing.
Interviewer: I’m not sure that people even knew that sort of thing went on, that
American soldiers were going over into East Berlin. The assumption is there’s just
this very—now did Soviet soldiers come over into West Berlin then?
14
�No, they didn‟t so much-- they did, but not in any numbers. 27:05 One thing that we
did do, the American, French, Brits and the Russians guarded Spandau Prison and
Rudolph Hess was still alive at the time. He was the only prisoner, and the game was
for—to report one another for infractions and not handling the guard duty properly. Hess
himself enjoyed drawing people into that; you weren‟t supposed to speak to him. One
time I was the officer of the guard there and I called up to one of the towers and said,
“Tell me when he‟s out taking his constitutional because I want to go and look at this
guy”, and so, he was walking ahead of me, going in the same direction, and I was
walking to overtake him, ostensibly checking the guards, and as I reached him, to
overtake him, he whirled around and looked me right in the eye. 28:08 I was this close
to saying, “Excuse me”, for which I would have been reported to the Russians, so that
kind of thing was rather fascinating. A strange guy, Hess, and the whole prison was a
kind of medieval sort of structure.
Interviewer: How did he conduct himself, as far as you can tell? Was he passive?
A very passive guy, he gardened and he walked and I don‟t know what he did, I never got
in actually to the cell, just the shell of the place.
Interviewer: Strange business—now while you’re in Berlin, were the people in
Germany paying attention to things like Vietnam and that sort of stuff, were they
aware that was going on?
I don‟t know—I mean, I was fairly oblivious, and I was more interested in my own
experience. 29:03 The people in Berlin all spoke English. You would try to speak
German and they were appreciative of it, but they‟d lapse right into colloquial English, so
I never engaged much in any of that kind of conversation with them. Another interesting
15
�thing about Berlin—our little measly battalion was headquartered in what had been the
headquarters of communications for the Third Reich and there were no infantry Captains
in Germany, so these young Lieutenants, we all took company commands. I had an
office, possibly, half the size of this room with a ceiling about this high that was totally
wood paneled and our brigade headquarters had been the headquarters of the Luftwaffe
and it was like a movie going in that place. This rising cobblestone drive up to the big
circular thing and you walk into this enormous rotunda, and it was an infantry brigade.
30:11 It was pretty amazing.
Interviewer: You talked about your interactions with the German people and so
forth. Were they interested in any kinds of things American and that sort of stuff?
Oh yes, very much—I mean you could buy American culture on the streets and that‟s
where I bought the “Hair” album, and that‟s where I saw “Hair‟, in Berlin, auf deutsch,
and Donna Summer was in it. And yeah, it was a very cosmopolitan town. It felt like a
prison after a while though, you were very aware.
Interviewer: You couldn’t go anywhere really.
You could, but it was a process. The army actually had a train that went down to West
Germany and it was like the Orient Express. 31:06 Mahogany paneled, these heavy
sheets and these sleeping compartments, and at each stop along the way the Russians
would come barging onto the train and look at your ID and my wife‟s passport and that
kind of thing. It was all show, but it was exciting.
Interviewer: How much of a cold war atmosphere was there? Was anybody
thinking that a war could actually break out?
16
�Yeah, Czechoslovakia, for example, there was—the Russians were holding
Czechoslovakia while I was there and we were alerted for that, but we wouldn‟t have
been involved, it would have been units from the states, but there was a high sense of
jeopardy. Of course, we‟re people who came out of high school in a highly industrial
area, where the day of the missile, that crucial day of the missile faceoff, we all expected
to be obliterated. 32:06
There was no sound in an otherwise adolescent cacophony. It
was dead silent in the halls of our high school , so cold war was part of all of our
mentality , and it was part of our instruction at West Point because that was still—the
holding back the Russians was still part of the mentality.
Interviewer: You get to the end of the year there in Berlin and now you’re heading
back to the states?
On my way to Vietnam, yeah
Interviewer: And you had orders for Vietnam already. You knew where you were
going?
I knew I was going there, I didn‟t know what unit.
Interviewer: Describe the process then of going over, going from Berlin to Vietnam.
What stages are there, there?
Just the trip, getting my wife resituated so she could wait out the period of time and that
took us a couple of weeks, and then I was gone. 33:07 She said to me when she took
me, this was now 1970, took me to the plane, she said, “You don‟t have to do this, we
could go to Canada”, because she had been awakening during this period of time. When
I came back—well, to step back—the high ranking, academically high ranking, members
of each class at West Point are given the choice, or were, to go directly to graduate school
17
�and then go into the active army while owing two years for one of graduate school.
When I was on my way back I saw one of my classmates on the evening news, he was at
Harvard, and he was announcing, “I‟m not doing this, I‟m not going to go and participate
in that war, I want out”. 34:03 He was allowed out and that impressed my wife. I still
had this idea. “Look, I asked for this, it saved me from oblivion, I owe this time and I
have to go where they send me”.
Interviewer: She’s thinking about the possibility that you’ll be coming home in a
bag.
Right, and so I went
Interviewer: Where did you leave from? Where did you settle her?
We settled her back home in Gary, and she was teaching at our old high school. I can‟t
remember the name of the air force base in northern California, but I went out through
San Francisco back out into the valley and there was an air force base there and we took
off from there to Alaska.
Interviewer: So, you were in a military jet then and not a civilian?
No, it was a modified commercial, full of nothing but troops. 35:04 It was a stretch
eight and they put extra seats in it, and I was in the back seat, with this thing bobbing all
over the place on the way over there. On the last two hours on our way into Vietnam,
some guy locked himself in the bathroom right behind me and no one could get him to
come out, so the first thing, when we landed, up come some MP‟s pounding on the door,
forced the door open and took this guy out in handcuffs, so that was my first experience.
My next experience was stepping out the door and being hit with this heat and humidity.
My knees almost buckled, of course I had been seeing just how much beer I could drink
18
�in Germany and how much food I could eat, so I was overweight and I lost about thirty
pounds in two weeks. 36:03
Interviewer: Now, where did they land you in Vietnam?
At Tan Son Nhut, Saigon, and then put us on a bus and took us to a place to sleep. Then
officers were allowed to say what unit they wanted to go to, so I thought, “Gee I‟d like to
go to the 1st Cavalry Division, I really like that patch”, and my second choice was the
101st Airborne, my third choice was “The Big Red One”, and I got the 101st.
Interviewer: How soon did you get sent up there?
The next day, and the transport then was a C-130 with cargo pallets, with straps on the
cargo pallets, and you sat cross legged and held on to the strap and that was the comfort
of military travel.
Interviewer: When you were first there in the Saigon area, and so forth, what
indications did you have that there was a war going on? 37:01
Very little, by that time Tan Son Nhut was very domesticated. My great regret is that I
never got into the city of Saigon; I never really had much to do with the people. I think
it‟s odd that I went over there with sort of a sense of alienation from things Asian, and I
came back with this abiding regard for things Asian, without ever really interacting with
people that much, but they were gorgeous people, and I thought resourceful and strong
people.
Interviewer: Where was the 101st based at that time?
In the far northern most region, the city of Hue, just outside Hue was the division
basecamp, my brigade was farther north, just south of the demilitarized zone, and our
area of operation, fortunately, depending on how you look at it, was a national forest
19
�preserve, so there never had been people living there. 38:11 So, we didn‟t have this
difficulty distinguishing civilians from combatants, so from our perspective, if it moved
you would shoot it, and we never had to confront that notion of—my brother, in the navy,
did, he was a swift boat skipper and he some real difficult calls to make trying to
determine if they were shooting civilians.
Interviewer: What was your first assignment once you got up there?
I was a platoon leader of the Alpha Company of the 2/506 Infantry. We had just begun a
campaign that was involved in establishing a firebase, a fire support base called Ripcord.
39:03 It was picked because it was in proximity to the main supply route that brought
things down from North Vietnam, down in Laos and then into South Vietnam. Our
purpose was to disrupt this supply line.
Interviewer: So you have what’s a potential check point on the Ho Chi Minh Trail I
guess is the way to look at it.
Yes, it worked that way. It was interesting that this was during the period of
Vietnamization, which was a term the Nixon Administration coined, which was, “Get the
Vietnamese to handle while we‟re in the background”, which was not the case where we
were. What was the case though, was that we weren‟t going to be reinforced because that
would have put more Americans into this fray. In fire support bases the principle was,
artillery units are on top of these hilltops, secured by infantry, and infantry units operate
within range, fire support range, of this artillery. 40:11 So, we were out moving around,
off in platoon size units, and in Vietnam the target was the enemy, not terrain, which is
why so often you saw things like “Hamburger Hill”, which was the year prior right in that
same area, where at great expense you take a hill and you walk away from it because the
20
�idea was to fix and kill the enemy, so that‟s what we were attempting to do. What we
now know , my commanding officer at that time had gone back and really researched all
this, he‟s met with commanders from the other side, is that there were parts of three
divisions of the North Vietnamese Army. 41:00
They were regular soldiers whose task
it was to get us out of there. So, from the period March to July of 1970, was that set
piece battle, almost. It did culminate with a massive assault on the firebase that drove us
out of the area. In fact, on that day the firebase was just overrun and as it was overrun it
started to be air struck because the artillery tubes had to be left, a lot of ammunition had
to be left, and it was just a, “get the humans out of there” evacuation. So we just struck
it, and struck it, and struck it for days, and guys I know have been back. Shortly
thereafter, one of the senior officers was on leave in Hong Kong, R&R, and actually saw
a display with photos, from Ripcord, declaring this victory of the people‟s army. 42:14
It was true.
Interviewer: What sort of a reception did you get when you arrived? You’re flying
over there in a C-130, they land you at Hoe, do you go out on the ground, do you go
out to the base by helicopter--how did you get out to the position?
I was trucked up to the basecamp for our brigade and then helicoptered out. I went out
actually, with our new battalion chaplain; he was going out to visit my unit.
Interviewer: Now, was the post you were at, was that a battalion size post or
brigade post, or what was it?
Brigade, Camp Evans
Interviewer: So, that’s what you were physically defending?
21
�No, that was—that was a base camp, in the lowlands, out near the coast. 43:02
Vietnam starts at this gorgeous, gorgeous coast, works its way through very fertile land,
at least in our part of the country, and then goes immediately into very rugged mountains
all the way through Laos, so our area was out in those mountains. The lowlands were
well controlled by ourselves and the South Vietnamese Army. It was the highlands that
were in contention, so I was helicoptered out to my unit.
Interviewer: The Ripcord camp itself, I guess that’s what I was saying, that base
was that a battalion base or brigade base or what was it?
That was a battalion headquarters, it had one company of infantry, two artillery batteries,
105‟s and 155‟s, and a 4.2 mm mortar platoon, and had these quad fifties that were an
invention in Vietnam, which was four, 50 Caliber barrels on one device that would fire
simultaneously. 44:02
Interviewer: Of course, they had a version of that as far back as WWII.
Yeah
Interviewer: It was initially designed for anti-aircraft, but they could use them also
as fire support for the ground troops.
Right
Interviewer: That’s not a whole lot of infantry to defend a position with.
A company could do it.
Interviewer: How many men in a company when it’s—
Full strength?
Interviewer: Or at least as full strength as you normally had?
22
�Well, a full strength company would have been a hundred and forty four. Most of our
companies were a lot less than that, about half. At one point my company, later when I
was a company commander, got down to seventeen and they sent us thirty-four
replacements in one day, all at once, on Ripcord, and they said, “Get out of here”, and all
we could do was say, “Okay, new guy, old guy, new guy, old guy”, so we put it-- and just
got off the firebase. 45:00
Interviewer: Now, what was your first impression when you got to the firebase,
when you arrived there?
Actually, I went straight out to the field to my unit, so it was some time later, we were
actually on a hilltop across from Ripcord, that I first beheld it and it‟s an interesting thing
because it looks like an industrialized hilltop in the middle of the forest, because the first
thing you do is denude it of trees, and then all kinds of wire and obstacles around it, gun
emplacements for the infantry and then the artillery tubes sticking up on top. It was
prehistoric looking, almost, out in the midst of that forest.
Interviewer: Where was your platoon when you joined it then?
On some hill 46:00
Interviewer: So, they just helicoptered you out there?
To a LZ, a landing zone
Interviewer: Why did you have that particular assignment?
I don‟t know that was luck of the draw by the time I got to the battalion and the prior
platoon leader had been killed on the initial assault on firebase Ripcord. That company
was the initial assault and they got blown back. It was secured later by a different
company, so I replaced the young guy who was killed.
23
�Interviewer: What impression did you have of the men in the platoon you joined?
I loved these guys. One of the things I really loved, I was never in the all-volunteer
army, I‟m sure these are great soldiers, and I loved draftees. They would speak up, they
would object, they would question, and I would answer them and I always thought that
was kind of healthy. 47:06 One of the things I learned at West Point was, that when the
Hessians were supporting us, I mean when the Prussians, supporting us in the revolution,
one of the things that most infuriated them was that American soldiers always wanted to
know why we were doing what we were about to do, which is something they were
totally unaccustomed to and there later testimony was, they felt that was the strength of
the Continental Army, and I agree. I just enjoyed their company.
Interviewer: What approach did you take? You’re a new platoon commander, you
have no combat experience, you’re joining a unit of men who’ve been in the field for
a while, and how did you deal with them, or try to win them over? What did you do
when you got there?
To their great credit, they weren‟t out to test anybody; they were out to support me
because we were all in this mess together. 48:00
There was a young sergeant E5, who
was the platoon sergeant, who was extremely supportive and helpful, and because of him
we managed.
Interviewer: And you had the good sense to listen to him.
You bet, and my company commander coached me and I‟d been training for six years for
this job, so I knew a lot about how to conduct myself and I knew that being respectful of
them was the way to be.
24
�Interviewer: Because one of the sorts of stereotypes of the whole Vietnam situation
is that you get these newly minted officers, Lieutenants, coming in and because
they’re Lieutenants and they’re in charge, they just go and do things their way.
How common do you think that actually was?
Not terribly, I think once you get out there you realize the geo-politics has nothing to do
with what were up to here. My aim was for them to survive. 49:03 I felt sorry for them.
I volunteered for this and they got stuck in it, and I wanted to do the best I could to make
sure they could make it home. Now, you can‟t be reluctant, because that could make
matters worse, but you can also avoid trouble where you can. Now our method when
moving around--dawn would arrive, we‟d have a mission to get from here over to there
and see what you can find. So, we‟d wake up in the morning and cook up some instant
coffee and just start firing artillery where we were going to go and airstrikes, I mean, we
spent huge amounts of money for an afternoon walk to get from here to there. So, that‟s
a way that you can see to protect these guys, clear the enemy out before you head into
where they are. 50:02
Interviewer: Did you have occasions to go into places that weren’t so clear, kind of
into jungle proper and that kind of thing?
Oh, very much
Interviewer: How did you operate when you were doing that? How did you deal
with the men?
How did we deploy them?
Interviewer: Yeah
25
�In a platoon size unit you‟d have a point element, a point man, and a slack man, just back
from the point man, and then there was a choice about the next few people, typically the
platoon leader would be no farther back than the fifth guy and then you‟ve got your radio
operator who, when there is line of sight, is a pretty clear indicator of who the Lieutenant
is. We wore no rank in the field, but you could figure it out if you could observe the unit
and I think that why, in all wars, this one included, there was high mortality. The fellow
that replaced me was killed and then when I was promoted to Captain, I replaced a guy
who was killed and the fellow that replaced me survived. 51:05 So, there was high
mortality in the junior officer ranks.
Interviewer: Do you think it helped you to have been in Germany for a year first?
So you were in a position where you were commanding, you were used to working
with enlisted men and dealing with them acting like Americans, so you had
experience on a practical level that was working with these guys and getting along
with them and still expecting to do that and then that works that way for you
Interviewer: Yes, I‟m sure it helped. Berlin was very interesting because they
handpicked the enlisted men, and because what we could not have was some international
incident with Russians, so there tended to be a lot of—I had a college graduate driving
my Jeep, you know, a lot of really interesting, broadly experienced, young soldiers and
plenty who were returning from Vietnam.
Interviewer: Describe a little bit how the situation developed there at Ripcord.
52:05 Now when you got there were things relatively quiet at that point?
We were operating in platoon size units and there was regular contact. We did—various
elements would contact the enemy fairly regularly. We would then sometimes group into
26
�a company size unit and most of the time we were just searching through the areas
looking to make contact with the enemy.
Interviewer: What were they doing?
They were moving supplies and harassing us largely. Ambushes, and that sort of thing
and that began to grow over that period of time and they would go from very small units
to fair sized units. Night attacks on firebases. I sat on a hill one night and just watched a
different firebase just light up with a major attack on it, and we were just sitting there, a
beautiful night, starlit, just watching the show. 53:09
Interviewer: Did the artillery at your base support them?
Oh yeah, and the air, we had these C-130‟s that were modified with quad fifties, and
mini-guns that would fire like a hose of machine gun fire, and they would get a wing on a
place like that and they would hose it down, just hose it down. And, of course, the
defensive positions had a thing—have you ever heard the term fougas?
Interviewer: Yes
It was a mix of oil and jet fuel in a barrel with a claymore mine behind it and you
detonate the claymore and it would shoot a flame out into the wire to burn people
attacking. 54:00 So, there would be a lot of explosives going off at a time like that.
This just built and built and built until we were in fairly regular contact, all of us, all the
time.
Interviewer: Were you still able to go off the base and conduct patrols?
Oh yes
Interviewer: So you weren’t being held in the perimeter the whole time?
27
�No, we were always out, building our own perimeters at night, and there were a couple of
events. There was a Hill 805, so called by its elevation. I was there several times and
one night, listening on the radio, while a different company was on this hill and being
attacked and they kept them there and they were attacked again, and they kept them there
and they were attacked again, and then they moved them out, and they moved a different
company up there. They made it okay, and we were assigned to go up and take their
place. 55:08 As we came up on top of this hill, they were going off of the hill, and their
lead element was ambushed. So, the first thing you do in a scenario like that, is you call
for fire support, gunships and artillery, and the best way to do that is to get the long
antenna up on the radio for the best reception. We were busying ourselves and we‟re
looking over here and here comes—it looked like something out of a cartoon, a black
cloud with lightning going out of it like this, otherwise a beautiful day. We were looking
at it and we thought, “That is coming right at us”, and sure enough it did. 56:00 I was
standing with one of the sergeants and the tree about twenty feet away just blew up,
totally consistent with the rocket propelled grenades that the enemy would fire at us, so I
figured that‟s what it was in that instant, but in the next instant I was doubled over at the
waist and the sergeant next to me was sitting on the ground with his legs straight out in
front of him and the guys from Bravo Company, who gathered around the long antenna,
were all just all flat out on the ground. No medevac, because you could not see in that
moment more than twenty feet, and the driving rain and this socked in environment.
Interviewer: Was it a lightning strike in the tree?
Yes, it was a lightning strike. We‟re standing around and the medics are running around
with smelling salts, and basically we just waited and they came to, and they were okay
28
�and they shook it off and walked off the hill. 57:03 That was an interesting experience
and for me, it felt like I‟d been punched in the gut and I doubled over.
Interviewer: Now, when you’re out there on these patrols and you take casualties,
people get hit, or whatever, what was the procedure? How would you deal with
then?
Get to a landing zone and get a medevac, and if you couldn‟t get to a landing zone, you
would drop what was called a jungle penetrator from the medevac, which would hover
and it would come down through the trees and you‟d strap the guy onto this penetrator
and haul him back up. Medevac pilots were unbelievable.
Interviewer: Were their helicopters basically targets for anybody on the ground?
Yeah, and there was constant helicopter traffic, it was constant; you could always hear a
blade somewhere. It was very interesting to do—they would often move us by
helicopter. Our mission would be to get to this landing zone and then you‟re going to be
choppered over there. 58:02 That was part of the principle of the division, was mobility
to keep the enemy guessing, so you‟d get up on these LZ‟s and here come the helicopters,
so you‟d wait to see if this was going to be a contested take off, and organize yourselves,
get on these choppers, you know the young Lieutenant would always be on the first
chopper in to the new location. The platoon sergeant on the last chopper out and then
when you‟re going into these LZ‟s, they‟d always prep them with fire, artillery fire, often
airstrikes and then as you‟re going in aerial gunships right alongside the first chopper,
just firing and firing and just pouring fire into these LZ‟s, and it was exciting. When
you‟d get to the LZ you couldn‟t exactly land because there were tree stumps, and so
we‟d spend a fair amount of time airborne out of the chopper with these sixty-eight
29
�pound packs on our backs. 59:10 I used to say, “By the time we‟re forty, we‟re all
going to have bad backs”, and I had a bad back by the time I was thirty.
Interviewer: Now, was that kind of method for preparing, was that effective? I
mean did you tend to not get much ground fire at least when you first showed up?
Yeah, it was pretty effective and the enemy knew it was going to happen, so why would
they volunteer to stand around for that, but every now and then you would get fire from
another location and it would be hard to identify.
Interviewer: Now, did the North Vietnamese have a lot of artillery and things like
that, or heavier weapons?
Yes, rockets and recoilless rifles, and they were superb soldiers and they had an ample
supply of small arms, the RPD machine gun was a great machine gun and the AK47
automatic weapon. 0:07 They—their hand grenades were not as good as ours. I was
wounded by one of their hand grenades and if it had been one of ours, I‟d have been
killed, and then they started to bring more and more of that—heavy mortars, you could
sense it coming into our area and Ripcord would take fire at all times. They had light
mortars, I was standing on the helipad at Ripcord one night with a couple other young
officers and we heard “poof, poof”, and we looked over and here were these black smoke
things from the ineffectual mortars, and so the way you get at the time—we were just
standing there, “Who cares”, unless it sounds like something heavier.
Interviewer: When they were using heavier weapons, do you have any means of
using counter battery fire? I mean, could you shoot back at them? 1:03
Yeah, you could—you‟re guessing a lot in that kind of terrain, in that kind of forest. We
were certainly better equipped and we had these light observation helicopters, another
30
�bunch of crazy young guys flying these things, crazy. They would go “whoo” right down
into those little valleys and they‟d look—“Oh, over there”, and they‟d fly away and then
they‟d start to direct fire, but there‟s a very mobile enemy, they knew that was our mode
and they‟d pick up and move out after firing a few rounds, usually ass this began to heat
up. There‟s one thing in particular that I want to get on record, and that was, there was a
time when—after I was in Alpha Company as a platoon leader, I was the Charlie
Company commander and we were down to about thirty people, at this point. 2:08 We
were sent on a mission to retrieve what was called a mechanical ambush. This was—
mechanical ambushes would be set out away from a nighttime perimeter with a tripwire
that would fire claymore mines, which fire pellets, ball bearings. Bravo Company had set
one--they had been hustled out of that area before they could dismantle it, so they sent
these guys from Bravo Company to us and we sent a patrol down to retrieve this
ambush—they were ambushed, and we had a guy with three days left in country who was
just blown in half by a RPG in that event. That was a real blow to the morale of our
company because he was a very popular guy and very willing, he could have gotten out
of there. 3:07
When they came back our medic had been wounded with them, our one
medic, so now we have no medic. I reported this fact, so they sent us a new medic. So in
that same afternoon in the passing of resupply and medevac‟ing comes this new medic.
So, he was trotted over to me and I looked at him, and you know, medics weren‟t infantry
men, but they were armed, and this guy had no weapon. I said, “Where‟s your weapon?”
He said, “I don‟t carry one, I‟m a conscientious objector”, and this guy was for real. He
was so innocent and so willing and I thought, “Oh, this—this is wrong” 4:01
Somebody, the system, is doing it to this guy; this guy could have been at Walter Reed
31
�or someplace, he would have been a great guy in a hospital, but no, they had to go and
stick him in an infantry unit, an undermanned infantry unit, in a combat situation. I just
thought it was horrific. Well, the next day our mission was—we were helicoptered right
near Ripcord, there was a hill with an easy line of sight of Ripcord and the enemy was
pouring fire into Ripcord from this hill [Hill 1000]. The day that the medic had shown
up, on that day Delta Company had assaulted that hill, they had left two dead bodies on
the hill, and had been repulsed. So, the idea was, Delta Company would go back up,
retrieve those bodies, there was much done about retrieving bodies, which I never saw.
5:07 I figured if I‟m out there and I‟m twitching, I want everybody to do whatever they
can. If I‟m dead, I don‟t want somebody else to get killed because I got killed, but
there‟s something in the mentality, and I understand the theory, I just don‟t subscribe to
it. Then we were to go around the base of the hill and come up behind this emplacement,
so the two pronged attack. Well, they started prepping that hill first thing in the morning,
everything, and Ripcord, they put the tubes at zero elevation and they were just firing
rounds into it. They air struck it, gassed it, continued with every form of artillery, naval
artillery, and we realized, this is an intense thing, so we left our normally heavy
equipment in a secure spot at the foot of Ripcord and took off with just canteens and
ammunition. 6:10 We worked our way around, got up on top of this hill, Delta
company‟s coming up this way, and we started across, there was a saddle, you know—a
high point here, Ripcord, and a high point here, which is where we gained, and we started
across and just immediately, very, very heavy small arms fire, and we ended up in a
bomb crater. In that first burst, one of the guys was just cut down, dead. This medic just
walked out, he just walked out there. Now, that kid should not have been there. 7:02
32
�Anyone else would have had a greater sense of self-preservation than this young man did.
He walked out there to help the guy and he got killed, “boom”, he lasted twenty four
hours and it was wrong. So, there came a point where one of the other guys—we had
another guy in the company who came this close to being a priest and decided he wasn‟t
going to go all the way. A highly religious fellow, he still is, so as we‟re walking along
the base of this hill, at the top of his voice, he‟s reciting The Lord‟s Prayer, I mean it was
dramatic. Well, we‟re in the bomb crater and he takes his helmet puts it on a stick and
peeks it up over these logs and the machine gun fire is right on it, so we were really
stuck, because we had nothing but open space between us and them, and we were ordered
to do it. 8:00 Actually, I got my sequence incorrect, it was when we were ordered to do
it that we began the assault and it was so intense that‟s when the guy got cut down and
that‟s when the medic walked out, and then we ducked back into this crater thinking
about, “What are we doing here?” Delta Company was making no progress.
Interviewer: Now, you’re in a situation where the Americans have been using fire
power all the time, heavy weapons and so forth, now, you’re actually in a position
where you found someone that’s shooting at you. At this point do you have air or
artillery support?
Well yes, except we were too close and that was one of the real tactical errors of this
whole operation. You got Delta Company right there, and you got us right here, and so,
air support, if it had come over us, might have shot us, might have shot them. 9:01 No
matter how you looked at it, it would have come into us. While we were there trying to
think, “What are we going to do now?” One of these little observation helicopters came
in and our brigade S3 in the helicopter and he said, “You‟re being maneuvered on by a
33
�mass of enemy troops coming around behind us”, so then we got the order, “Ok, well get
off”, thank God, so we started down the hill and I was, you know—the guys were going a
little bit more, I was afraid, toward the maneuver element coming around behind us. I
wanted to go more below the military crest, so the guys on top of the hill couldn‟t shoot
us, so I was urging them this way, carrying two dead bodies, which are extremely heavy
and unworkable—and hot, really hot. 10:06 The prep of this hill had been so intense
that when you stepped on it, it came up over your ankles, and I was urging them to come
this way and there was a moment when I realized, “Oh my God, I stuck my head up too
far, and I thought, “I‟m dead”, but I ducked and I wasn‟t. We ended up then back at the
LZ that we came in on grouped with Delta Company, and my battalion commander came
in on his chopper and he jumped out and said, “When can you be ready to go back up?”
And I was just angry, so I responded angrily and I said, “That is crazy, how are we going
to go back up under these circumstances when these guys are exhausted?” I mean, they
had sweat every drop of water they possibly could. 11:03
I mean, hard to walk after a
day and it‟s late now and he‟s thinking about going back up, so that‟s where he and I
started to get crosswise. Another interesting thing, then we went into a joint perimeter
with Delta Company and my big pleasure was boiling water and making instant coffee.
You did this on this small can with holes cut in it. Did you talk to guys about this?
Interviewer: Yes
And then with heat tablets in it and then a pear can, which is a larger can, with the lid
crunched as a handle. So, I was boiling the water and I was leaning against my rucksack,
and during this, from Ripcord, they‟re firing direct fire over us just to continue to
suppress the hill here. 12:01 And you hear ttttt,ttttt, shrapnel going through the trees,
34
�and my pear can shifted and I said, “Oh, no”, and I leaped forward to get my pear can,
and when I did a piece of shrapnel, about that big, came wheeee, and whacked right
against my rucksack.
Interviewer: Right where you had been sitting.
Right where my chest was, and that is the essence of combat, you know, you‟re dead,
you‟re fine, it‟s amazing, the tolerances—why--and this is where survival guilt comes
from in my opinion. “How come I made it and the guy next to me didn‟t? Was it skill?”
It‟s not, its pure random luck.
Interviewer: How far into your time there, at Ripcord, do those events take place?
That was July
Interviewer: You’re getting close to the end then, at that point?
Yes, it was 13:01
Interviewer: Did you get wounded there or did that come later?
It was prior, when I was a platoon leader, and in that instance we were in a company size
perimeter and then we were the point platoon, so we took off down this ridgeline and
we‟re ambushed. Point man is killed right away, and what you do in that circumstance,
basically—first you get out of this damn pack, because we carried so much with us,
water, ammunition, food and all very heavy, and I went down on my back. I think this is
also interesting about combat, because other guys have told me this kind of thing, as I
lurched forward, I was seen watching grass just jump, jumping next to me, and it was
machine gun fire, and I saw something out of the corner of my eye. 14:03 And I knew
in that instant it was a chicom hand grenade, because they had this stem that came up out
of them that looked like a can with a stem, where ours were more like a baseball. So, I
35
�knew it was a chicom grenade, I knew I was going to be hurt, I figured I‟d be okay, and
this is all as I‟m moving—so the world gets so slow, unbelievable, and this grenade went
into a little bush and when it blew, it was sheared by the earth and it hit me like this. I
use to bitch every day, because I wore glasses then, about keeping my glasses clean. It
was just a game I played, trying to keep my glasses clean, but I bitched about them all the
time. Well, these fragments hit my glasses and my helmet. 15:00
One of them nicked
me here, in the side of the face, and one went straight into me—hit me in the head and
knocked me for a loop. Head wounds bleed like mad, so my glasses were all covered
with blood, and I knew I‟d survive, but you medevac a head wound because you‟re not
sure, so I did get medevaced, patched up, and then sent back to my platoon, so that was
that event. I‟ve heard people tell me—I had a guy tell me one time, he looked and there
was an enemy soldier right there and he saw the spin of the round and he missed it, and
he killed the guy. I had that experience in a traffic event one time where I was doing
360‟s on 1-96 our here, just watching the other drivers, and it‟s weird.
Interviewer: Sometimes when I try to tell people about how this process of
interviewing veterans works, I’ll talk to combat veterans and they’ll talk very
casually about gun fire and its effects and things like that, and they’ll treat it just
like driving on an icy road in Michigan and you’re the first person to actually do
that. 16:11 You mentioned at this point where you’re in that bad situation there,
and the battalion commander came in and so forth, and that you were kind of at
odds with him. Had you and he been working together for that period of time, or
was he new?
36
�No, he wasn‟t new; he was there when I got there. He was a good man—you know I felt
very badly for that field grade rank. They had by then invested most of their adult lives
in their career, and a guy like that is given six months to make your name, and I felt that
was very inappropriate, but there are these guys stuck in these situations. 17:01 His
commander had six months, and his commander had six months, and this pressure comes
down and down and down for results, for something sexy to write up about the unit, for
body count, for whatever it was, and it just felt like it was, collectively, we had our eye
off the ball, so to speak, and by this time I did question the purpose of the war. I said to
him one night on a firebase, I said, “Don‟t you think”, I thought we were just having a
conversation, “Don‟t you think that if there were an election held today, that Hoe Chi
Minh would win?” Guys who were boxed in like this could not allow that kind of
thought, and I was just musing out loud, so that deepened his, I realized later, his dislike
for me. 18:08 He was killed on Ripcord, of course, right on the last day, during the
evacuation.
Interviewer: You described that ended it. How was it—what was it that led to the
evacuation of Ripcord?
We were overwhelmed by numbers. We were a brigade and they had three divisions.
They wanted us gone from that area, so they really committed to it.
Interviewer: How much of your brigade, at the time, would actually be out there,
just one battalion?
No, three battalions
Interviewer: Three battalions, so, at a certain point you had all three battalions at
Ripcord, or in the immediate vicinity?
37
�We had two, and one was more focused on lowland security, so we really had two who
were out there and we were—there was a thing called operational control, OPCON, we
had a couple companies from another battalion, OPCON. 19:08 In fact, five of my
classmates were killed in that battle.
Interviewer: Did you eventually get to the point where you were getting large scale
conventional assaults?
Yeah, and that was really the—the indirect fire really picked up at Ripcord. By this time
I‟m at the brigade headquarters, I‟ve been banished by this guy. He came out one day
and said, “You‟re out of here”, and I said, “What are you talking about?” He said, “I
think the men have lost confidence in you”, and I said, “Why don‟t you ask them?” he
said, “Don‟t give me this, go”, and there‟s my replacement standing there. I will wrap
around to this, but as I got in the helicopter I felt terrible, but I never got to say, “See ya”
to these guys. 20:05 So, I had been banished to brigade headquarters, and I‟m standing
in the tactical operations center, an underground bunker, in a safe area basically, and I‟m
listening to this radio traffic, just the intensity growing, and then the decision—I‟m
standing there when the decision is made and we got to get everybody out of there, so
that became a real logistical issue. The Captain, who had been an enlisted man for years
was on his second tour, he was our S3 heir, he‟s the who warned us we were being
maneuvered on, he managed this whole thing from the air, he was brilliant.
Interviewer: So he, basically, had to lay down fire support to keep the enemy away
long enough for you guys to get into the helicopters and get out?
Right, and that didn‟t work so well on Ripcord. 21:01 There were choppers shot down,
and the battalion commander was running his chopper when a mortar round hit and killed
38
�him and the guy with him. That‟s when this fellow, Bob Kalsu, who had played for the
Buffalo Bills was killed. They put thermite grenades down the artillery tubes and
thermite grenades just burn with incredible heat and fuse the block, and getting the
artillery guys out of there, I mean it was an aerial ballet under intense fire that this fellow,
Fred Spaulding, he ran it, so there‟s this Captain really running the show, but, the
Generals up in the higher level.
Interviewer: So, what did you do after that was over?
After Ripcord was over?
Interviewer: Yes
I settled—I was the evening briefer for the brigade commander, I was in the intelligence
office at the brigade headquarters. 22:05 And the rainy season came--it‟s in the dry
season when supplies and stuff can really be moved and that‟s why they needed us gone,
because the rainy season was coming, and the rainy season tends to be less contact
moving around out there, booby traps, the occasional—a lot more booby traps in the wet
weather, and the occasional contact, and the South Vietnamese Army moved heavily into
our area then. We were doing a lot of coordinating with them, so I rode in a lot of
helicopters, went to a lot of basecamps, and ran radios.
Interviewer: What sort of impression did you have of the South Vietnamese Army,
or the people you dealt with?
I didn‟t deal with them much, what I was aware of was that their hygiene was horrible.
On our firebase rats were a terrible problem and I thought rats were city critters, but
they‟re everywhere. 23:08 At Ripcord, for example, you would use these sleeves that
artillery tubes came in and fill them with earth, or something and make them part of the
39
�security of the emplacements. Well, they would use them for garbage, and pee in them
and otherwise—it was pretty nasty, so there was a time our brigade headquarters, me
included, were on a firebase that was secured by ARVN‟s, and it was an ARVN artillery
battery, and, man, I did notice the rat population was much higher on that firebase than at
Ripcord, or others I had been on, or basecamp, for that matter, but I couldn‟t judge their
competence, I never really worked with them in the field. 24:03 I think there was a lot
of hope, by then, that the war would somehow find an end other than what ultimately
happened, and both countries were running low of young men, the north and the south, so
probably the quality of the ARVN Army went down, but I don‟t truly know.
Interviewer: So, how much longer did you stay in Vietnam after Ripcord was
finished?
Another five months
Interviewer: And it was basically this kind of duty at that point?
Yeah, on radios talking to the battalions, doing briefing on a big—in another bunker
with a big illuminated map.
Interviewer: Right, and once you were doing that, did you have a better sense of,
really, what the overall picture, or scheme of thing was and what was happening in
the war, or were you still kind of just focused on the sector that you were
responsible for?
Yeah sure, and then I was just counting my days. 25:02 That‟s what kept people sane in
Vietnam, was counting the days.
Interviewer: One of the observations that gets made a lot about Vietnam, and how
things were handled, has to do with the system of rotating men in and out of there
40
�and its effect on unit morale cohesion and things like that, because people got sent in
and out individually rather than as whole units. Do you think that was a problem,
or did it have benefits that balanced out the problems with it?
Well, I think to some—I think the way you put it is pretty good, I do. There was a
problem to it, but at the company and platoon level, the interest was to make this person
competent, not maybe my pal, because he‟s likely to get killed and I don‟t want to lose
another friend, but generally, I thought the troops assimilated the new people really,
really well, because it was in everyone's best interest, and they all knew they were once
that guy. 26:02 So, I don‟t think that was a great detriment, and when the world war got
going that‟s how it went, replacements came and went, so I don‟t think that was any great
detriment.
Interviewer: How long did it take to get acclimated, and to learn enough of the
ropes to have a reasonable chance, as good of a chance as anybody else of surviving?
Pretty quick--I remember the first night that I was with my platoon sort of staring into the
dark, and it wasn‟t totally dark and you can convince yourself that something is moving,
and there‟s enough stuff crawling around that there can be sound effects. There were two
critters that were most interesting, when you see like a centipede running around by the
toilet. 27:03 The centipedes were about this big and they had this brilliant, brown
shinny shell and orange legs and huge pinchers. I mean, if a guy got bitten by one of
those you would have to medevac him. I got up one morning and there was a little baby
on my arm and I flicked it off and “Ow, that hurt”, and I‟m thinking, “Whoa”, it‟s going
down my arm and up my arm and I‟m sitting there thinking, “Now, should I be doing
something about this?” After about an hour or so, it subsided, but that was an infant, and
41
�so we spent a lot of time hacking those things in half with the trenching tools. Then there
were these lizards, and I never saw one, but you would hear them at night. Have other
people told you about these lizards?
Interviewer: No
The “fuck you” lizards?
Interviewer: No
That‟s what they said, “fuck you, fuck you”, like that and they‟d be in the trees and
around. 28:04 You could swear, the first night that you‟re there, that somebody‟s out
there yelling at you, you know. The night they gave us twice as many replacements as
we had seasoned guys, there was a lot going on and we got into it and we barely made it
to a place, by nightfall, to get into a perimeter. We were very disorganized and one of the
new guys was spooked and he threw a grenade and it hit a tree and bounced back, so you
could think it was actually incoming, and that was really a disconcerting night. I had to
just yell and you wouldn‟t normally do that to everyone. To just settle down, this is
just—quit throwing hand grenades, you‟ll know it when you see it. 29:02 We were in a
place that was in sort of line of sight from Ripcord, and the quad fifties started firing out
in the trees and came right into our position, shooting up the trees and everything, so that
freaked these poor guys out—freaked me out, but I mean, but at least I knew to get down
in a hole. We were shot by everything except naval gun fire, I think. You know we were
shot by—we took friendly fire from just about everything, because you can‟t control it.
We never took a casualty from friendly fire, but it can “pucker” you when that kind of
thing happens. You asked me a question and I digressed.
42
�Interviewer: Actually you were doing fine. You get to the end of all this now, and
your time of your tour is finished okay, so describe, sort of the departure. 30:00
Well, while I was in Vietnam I said to myself, “I‟ve got almost three years left of my
commitment”, and by then I was bitter enough that I knew, “I‟m not going to do this for a
career”, and in fact, the only thing I can think of worse than the army in Vietnam would
be the army at Fort Benning, the infantry I mean. So, I said, “What is the wimpiest thing
that the army‟s got? Ah, the Adjutant General Corps.”. They put out the post
newspaper, they lead tours, so I wrote a letter to the branch and I requested a branch
transfer, and they sent it back and they said, “Sorry son you don‟t have any applicable
experience”, and I said, “Well, of course I don‟t”, but, I thought, “Okay, the
Transportation Corps., even better, because they actually do something”. 31:00 So, I
wrote to them and they said, “Welcome to the Transportation Corps”, so when I got back
and took a little leave, then branch transferred the Transportation Corps. , so I went
down to this little pastoral post in southern Virginia, home of the Transportation Corps.
To the officer advance course and I got my Vietnam stuff and my Ranger tab and my
101st patch and nobody messed with me, because they were pretty well—guys in the
Transportation Corps., not that they didn‟t run risks, but most didn‟t, and so, you just stay
away from---you give berth to a guy who clearly had combat experience, so it was sort of
like a protective shield that I had. From that course I was assigned to a place in D.C. It
was the worldwide headquarters of transportation for the military. 32:06
It was run by
Civilians from WWII, and they did not want the military—they way outnumbered us, and
they did not want us messing with their systems.
Interviewer: So, what did you do?
43
�Nothing
Interviewer: You were just decoration?
Yes, just hung out in a room with other desks and career civil servants. One night one of
these civil servants—these trade magazines would go around with a buck slip on it and
you‟re supposed to acknowledge that you looked at it and I looked at him toward the end
of the business day and he took one of these magazines and stuck it in the center drawer,
and he looked up and I was looking at him and he said, “Just so I‟ll have something to do
tomorrow”, so basically we went for coffee and went to lunch. I was under the wing of a
retired Air Force Colonel, who was one of these functionaries who showed me D.C.
33:04 I wore civilian clothes and one day a week I would wear my uniform.
Interviewer: How long did you do that?
A year and a half
Interviewer: Did that finish out your time in the service then?
Yeah
Interviewer: Did your wife come and live with you then, in that area?
Yes, and, you know, the aftermath of all of it is interesting, to me I think, because my
wife---by then we‟d moved from D.C. to New York, and we were both hired by IBM at
the same time, the first time a man and a woman cohabitated at an IBM training facility,
and our managers had to get involved to make it happen. She knew I was—and I live
today, I believe, because she knew that I was a different person, because I‟d known her
almost all my life, and she began to question me, and I was having nightmares and that
sort of thing and in the middle of the night she made me tell her. 34:03 She made me
tell her the story and that‟s a first step in the whole process. There came a time when I
44
�met a fellow named Bobby Muller. Have you ever heard of Bobby? Bobby and Kerry
and those guys were Vietnam veterans against the war, and Bobby decided to work
inside the system and he founded the Vietnam Veterans of America. He‟s the guy who
led it to the point of federal charter status. At this time he‟s in lower Manhattan, in an
office full of boxes of junk, and a guy I knew said, “You ought to go and talk to this
guy”, so I dropped in on him one day and he---interesting man, in a wheelchair. He was
in the ward that was featured in a cover article in Life magazine in the Bronx VA
Hospital with Ron Kovic and the dripping pipes and the rats and all that stuff, the spinal
cord ward 35:06 Bobby—tremendous energy, and he gave me this piece of paper with
these lists of behaviors on it, and he told me about guys he knows wearing pieces of their
uniform and talking like they‟re in Vietnam. I went home and said to my wire, “Man, I
talked to this guy today and he was telling me about these guys he knows—wow”, and I
gave her the piece of paper and she looked at it and she said, „Well, which one of these
aren‟t you?” I said, “Give me that”, “No”, “Yes”, “Well, maybe you got a point there”.
Interviewer: Were you getting any kind of, sort of, support from the military?
Were they offering counseling or anything like that, or was it more like everything
will be fine, you’re back now?
No, I mean they figured that and you know, I don‟t want to blame, I blamed at the time. I
was angry and I was alienated, but when you look back at it you can look at a continuum.
36:04 I know Native Americans when there were societies of Native Americans that
when warriors went out and engaged in combat, they weren‟t allowed back in the village
until they went through a process. You take the Civil War—a person who could not go
forward on the battle field was called a coward, and by WWI we had a more elaborate
45
�theory of “shell shock”, pressure and all, and no matter how you cut it, when a guy can‟t
go forward it‟s as though he‟s been shot. WWII we had a term, phycology had occurred
between WWI and WWII and we had the term “combat fatigue” by Korea they came up
with that point system, which worked pretty well in Korea to keep psychological
casualties off the battle field. 37:01 By Vietnam they had “DEROS”, date of estimated
rotation from overseas, which worked. The day you got there you knew the day you were
going to leave, so all you had to do is just contain yourself, and it really did keep
psychological casualties off the battle field.
Interviewer: You knew it would be limited and it wasn’t indefinite, so in that sense,
perhaps the whole rotation system made a certain amount of sense.
A tremendous amount of sense
Interviewer: Better than leaving the same unit in place for as long as it had to be
there and you just stayed with that unit, at least you had a chance of getting out.
Right---so it did work from that perspective.
Interviewer: What kind of job did you take at IBM?
Large systems marketing representative
Interviewer: How did you wind up with that job?
A guy I knew in the army had been hired by IBM and he knew I was thinking about
getting out and he called and said, “Why don‟t you come up to New York and I‟ll
introduce you to a couple guys”.
Interviewer: Did you know anything about computers at that point?
Yeah, I knew—actually ours was an applied engineering degree and we were working
with computers. 38:03 I never was fascinated by them, but I was---
46
�Interviewer: You had enough familiarity, or whatever, and enough training that
you could go in there and understand, basically, what you were doing?
Really, they didn‟t want you to know too much, they wanted to teach you what they
wanted you to know, so there was a lot of training, both technical and marketing. We
figured, if this isn‟t a life career, at least it‟s a great segue from nine years in the army,
back into the world.
Interviewer: Did you stay with that or did you move on to something else?
Four years I stayed there, and that was when I was really discovering that I had a lot of
unresolved conflict and I had this point of view, I had made this decision, I have
problems with authority, so I never butted heads with people, but I worked around them.
I‟d be sitting in a meeting talking to people, you know, sitting in a business meeting
looking at a point about halfway between me and the other guy, reworking, “gosh, if I‟d
only done it this way”, and that kind of thing. 39:10 Having startle response—I was
walking down the street one day with my wife and her girlfriend and a sound went off
and I was on the ground. Our friend thought it was funny, and it was, but that sort of
thing stays with you and just this whole reworking, reworking, and then becoming
alienated, you know, I was really disgusted with the government trying to give-- the state
that I was from was paying a bonus and I tried to turn it down and they hounded me so
much that I took the money, it was three hundred dollars, or something like that. The
IBM years were great, it was a wonderful company, and they treated us very, very well.
40:04 I learned a tremendous amount, but I just wasn‟t engaged in it.
Interviewer: Incidentally, where were you actually working for them?
In Manhattan
47
�Interviewer: So you decide you need to move on to something else at that point? So,
what do you go onto from there?
Well, I‟d gotten myself into therapy during this time, and I decided I wanted to be a
„shrink”. So, I got enrolled at Columbia in a graduate program for counseling, and I had
been working out with a guy who owned—a kind of remarkable guy who kind of
invented personal training and his gym was the gym to the stars, you know, Arthur Ashe,
Billie Jean King and guys from the Giants and the Jets would rehab there. 41:07 Well, I
had been a paying customer and I said, “I‟m quitting IBM and I can‟t afford it anymore”,
and he said, “Well, why don‟t you work here?” So, that became what I was really doing,
was working half a day for him while I pretended to go to graduate school, because I
realized fairly early on I was working on my own case. Then my wife and I decided,
“Let‟s get out of New York”, and we sold this condominium that we owned in the
suburbs, we had long since been living in the city, and went on a trip to California.
While we were out there, we were in the San Francisco area, we saw a lot of information
going on about people reaching out to veterans, and we said, “What the heck, let‟s move
out there”. So, we went back to New York, put some furniture in storage, put a bunch of
book in boxes, went out to JFK and moved. 42:08 We got a futon and rented a
houseboat in Sausalito and we said, “Our lives are now about unraveling this post war
upset.
Interviewer: When was this roughly?
1980 or 1981, and it turns out that San Francisco is just a wildly political place, and so
you take the veteran subset and it‟s that way too. In 1967 I remember being at Fort
Hood on a training thing and every night, in the officers‟ club, someone kept playing, “If
48
�you‟re going to San Francisco be sure to wear some flowers in your hair”, and I used to
think, “San Francisco, “flower power”, all those people, it‟s kind of interesting”. Well, I
ended up in a vet center rap group in Haight- Ashbury, so I finally made it; I‟m a
“hippie” in San Francisco. 43:04 Because of the people I fell in with, there was a top
forty radio station in San Francisco that had run afoul with the FCC and had to do
community service, and they picked veterans. So, I get trotted up and I‟m working for
minimum wage for this radio station, to put on an event at Fort Mason in San Francisco,
which is a port through which GI‟s shipped out and back in WWII and Korea. Now a
bunch of public interest groups—so we did this big event down there. It was a job fair,
music, art, “Country Joe McDonald” lived in Berkley and he was a great supporter of
veterans, and he was on an aircraft carrier off Vietnam. I then segued from that job to a
job in the Reagan Administration, which wanted to do away with as much of the VA as
possible. 44:07 Their theory was, “Find veterans out here in the world who are
succeeding and get them to do volunteer efforts and support to those who aren‟t doing so
well”. I was good for that because I‟m a West Point graduate, verbal, IBM trained, I got
into a lot of corporate environments out there, crazy guys, functioning at a very high
level, so this was the misapprehension that I think the whole program had. You‟re either
okay, or you‟re drooling in your socks, and there is this entire continuum, and plenty of
people who are functioning at a very high level who aren‟t okay at all, so I got a lot out of
talking to these people and sort of opening them to the idea, principle idea, that this kind
of upset is predictable and normal and transcend able. 45:10 There is a way through it,
but it doesn‟t just happen with time. Witness the WWII veterans who just came bilging
out in horrific numbers when “Saving Private Ryan” hit the theaters. They had been
49
�sitting on this for so long and no one wanted to hear it, that‟s the difference, nothing.
This experience does this to a sane person, the crazy people don‟t experience it, but
you‟ve got to work your way through it. The guy who introduced me to Bobby Muller
was a psychologist; he had worked with a lot of veterans. He had a theory that I
subscribe to, and I‟ve handed this article out to a lot of people, and that is—you‟ve got
the diagnosis, diagnostic manual that describes post-traumatic stress disorder as people
who cannot function. 46:06 Then you‟ve got the rest of us who have unresolved
conflict, and it affects intimacy, the ability to get along in the world, but not at the level
of can‟t function and most of us are in that category. The way to transcend it, the best
way, the model, is to be among others, who shared the experience, communicate about it,
and take on some constructive activity. That‟s where all these memorials came from, I
believe and it was a very healthy thing. I wasn‟t so focused on tangible things; I was
focused on just alerting people to this. I felt my job was to tell them what this is and that
something can be done about it, and hope that they would take the direction. My territory
was northern California; I saw a lot of places, a lot of people, and a lot of circumstances.
47:08
It never really amounted to much programmatically in helping people, but it did
awaken a fair number of people. One guy told me he didn‟t kill himself because I‟d told
him how to predict, and this guy was—he taught phycology at the college level. So, no
one ever presented it to anyone in this way. They‟re still not doing it properly I believe,
but at least they tell people when they‟re getting out now that this could occur, but when
you‟re young and you‟re tough somebody‟s got to come after you to get you
reprogrammed, so to speak, so o it‟s a long, long process. My next job, when that was
drying up, my wife and I looked and we weren‟t finished yet. 48:02 We saw there was
50
�an opening in Seattle for the director of what was The Seattle Veterans Action Center,
and it was one of the really old line, store front, counseling centers, national, Urban
League and National Council of Mayors, and it was the one thing we set out to do, was to
get that job, and we got it, so we moved to Seattle. I managed that place, and principally
what I did, was I publicized it. We had a lot of interesting—it brought a lot of attention to
it, and I learned a tremendous amount. The first thing I was in, with the radio station,
they put on a concert for us, Bill Graham, remember Bill Graham? So, they had a great
relationship with Bill Graham and he did an evening at the Moscone Center to benefit our
little 501C3. 49:00 Jefferson Starship, Grateful Dead, Santana, Boz Scaggs, and Joe
McDonald, so we walked out of there with 200,000.00 that night, so some of that was
back pay that I was owed, but most of it went to support other grass roots organizations,
that was our purpose, to support these grass roots organizations. I‟m bouncing, but when
I was in that center, this rap group, the guy who was assigned to be our facilitator, was a
guy who‟d had his arm shot off and reconnected, and on a prior occasion had been the
sole survivor of his unit. This guy was not facilitator material, he was group member
material, and I didn‟t know I was thrown in with these guys who were very, sort of,
charged. Nobody wanted to tell them what to do or anything and I didn‟t know that.
50:03 I‟m in the group, I like these guys, but nobody would touch us, so we, one night,
said, “Mike, we‟ve decided you‟re not the facilitator anymore, you‟re in the group”, so
we became this leaderless group sitting around talking, smoking dope, in the rap center.
What I began to realize was, what people do, as they tell the story over, and over, and
over again, it almost never varies. It never gets on to, “This is all my nickel analysis”, it
never gets on to, “What decisions did you make about yourself as a result? Like, my two
51
�best friends died, so I‟ll never love, because when I do they‟re taken away from me”. No
wonder people come back from these wars and can‟t form an intimate relationship, or
don‟t get close to their kids, or go down in the basement at night, whatever it is they do.
51:05 In my case, I think I have trouble with authority, that‟s the decision I made about
myself, so if you don‟t get on to expression in that level and get onto yourself, you don‟t
get through it. That‟s where that model of, at least take something on, and seems to aid.
One of the guys in the group actually had been in my unit a year prior, at Hamburger Hill.
He was a buck sergeant and he was the son of a Colonel. He basically, and more or less
said, he‟s committed to a life of misery as a gesture to those who didn‟t survive. I said,
“You know, Brian that just doesn‟t make sense. You would have wanted the guys to
survive so they could be miserable?” 52:07 I said, “I like the idea that I would lead the
life I would have wished for them, because I want out of this, because I can‟t stand what
this is doing to me”, and he was a little offended at that. I never knew what became of
Brian, but I hope he surmounted it, but generating this point of view is really what
worked for me and my wife, and so there did come a time when we felt like we were
really on top of that, and of course, we had gone flat broke during this whole process, so
we decided to move back to Michigan and start a whole different phase of our lives. I
really do think, and I credit my wife mostly, but I really do think, for me, this is now the
best thing that ever happened to me. 53:06
Interviewer: So, what are you doing now?
I‟m in the real estate sales business.
Interviewer: It’s not the best time to be in that right now.
52
�Oh no, but I had some good years and I will again, but you know, and I say what I do is,
“I listen to wealthy people complain about their money”, because they think that really
matters, and to some extent I sort of float like a bug on the surface of a consumer
economy, because it all looks a little bit like a joke to me, but you know, I do an honest
professional job. I just think drawing lines on the earth, and saying I own it, is a little bit
comical.
Interviewer: One of the standard questions in doing this sort of interview, and you
get around to the close, is to ask veterans something along the lines of—How do you
think your time in the service affected you as a person, or whatever, and a lot of the
WWII vets and things like that, that often hasn’t necessarily been touched on. 54:08
It seems to me much of the course of this interview had pretty answered much of
that question. If you were going to try to, sort of pull it together and say, overall
what effect did that whole military experience have on you, or how would you
characterize it, do you have a way of saying that, or expressing it?
Well, it made me who I am, and I‟m happy with who I am. If I had not gone to West
Point—when I showed up I was seventeen, I turned eighteen and they started beating my
mother‟s door down, “Where is this guy? Why isn‟t he down here registering for the
draft?” she said, “He‟s in the army”, “Oh bologna”, well that went on for a while until
they settled that, so looking back on it, I figure I would have taken my brother's job at the
windshield wiper factory and then been drafted. 55:03 Now, I could type like a demon,
so I probably would have been one of these stories—about ready to ship out and they
said, “Can anybody type?” But, I might have been a snuffy private and wiped out early
on in Vietnam, so I feel like the army saved me, oddly enough, and I got to be around
53
�remarkable people and learned a tremendous amount from the people I was around, so I
look back very fondly on the whole experience. If I hadn‟t been drafted, if I could have
gone to Indiana University, I would have spent the first semester trying to get into a
fraternity, the second semester on probation, and then been drafted. Instead, they locked
me in my room and made me study. So, generally speaking, the army experience I value
tremendously and I feel sorry for people who don‟t have something like it, and which is
why I feel strongly about a national service sort of component, because most people got a
tremendous amount out of it. 56:10 You get out there, they cut all your hair off, put you
all in the same outfit, and now, who are you? Better said, you start taking everyone else
for who they are and not what they look like, it‟s a wonderful experience, so I feel really
lucky that it all went the way it did, even though it was really painful for a fair number of
years there.
Interviewer: Well thank you for coming in and taking the time to talk to us.
Thank you, I‟m glad to yak.
54
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WilcoxJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Wilcox, Jeffrey (Interview transcript and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wilcox, Jeffrey
Description
An account of the resource
Jeffrey Wilcox was born in New York and moved to Gary, Indiana as a youth. After high school, he attended West Point, and graduated in 1968. He was then assigned to an Army unit that was stationed in Berlin. He stayed there for a year, and was then shipped off to Vietnam. He joined the 101st Airborne Division, and operated for some time in the Ripcord Fire Support base. There, he frequently encountered the enemy, getting a minor wound in the process. After Vietnam, he spent a year and a half in the Transport Corps in Washington DC. After his time in the service, he worked for various different veterans support and advocacy groups on the west coast.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-07-31
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d375d7d7595432b67bfaf14e5b9bed12.m4v
0bdb96f4db22b96a573d3cb480cea279
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d1caaf22e80bf10c9cfa835782a733b6.m4v
138164e952aff99e1add3eb7429f509d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/686a607d0ed1513441d09963e55f4e8f.pdf
777da7229b178286a9f4f5d020424a64
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Ed Wietecha
Vietnam War
Part 1 – 49 minutes 37 seconds
(00:00:47) Early Life
-Born in Pottsville, Pennsylvania in 1945
-Mother was living with her parents while father served in North Atlantic Ocean
-Almost all of his uncles served in the military during World War II
-Father had a career in the Navy
-Served in China prior to, and during the Japanese invasion in 1937
-Father was reassigned to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois after the war
-Grew up in Waukegan, Illinois
-Graduated from high school in 1963 (initially says 1967, but corrects himself later)
(00:02:21) Vietnam War, College, and Navy Reserve Officers' Training Corps (ROTC)
-American presence in Vietnam was gaining attention in 1963
-He wanted to join the Marines and go through Platoon Leader Class
-Friends at the University of Illinois suggested he join the Navy ROTC
-He decided he'd do that, get commissioned, and join the Marines as an officer
-Would still go through Basic School and get sorted for his specialization
-Vietnam War accelerated during his time in college
-Marines landed in Da Nang in 1965 followed shortly thereafter by the Army
-Paid a lot of attention to the war
-Major topic of discussion every week
-Had classmates fighting in Vietnam
-One classmate, a year older than him, was killed in action in Vietnam
-Received training between junior and senior year of college
-Weeding out men who couldn't physically handle military service
-Lasted six weeks
-He did well in class
-Offered regular commission as opposed to a reserve commission
-Reserve officer served for three years
-Regular officer served for four years
-Able to stay in even if the military downsized
-Graduated and received his commission in 1967
(00:06:58) The Basic School
-Sent to Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia for the Basic School
-Got married in late August 1967
-Married for 48 years as of the time of the interview
-He was the most likely to get killed in action
-Wife accepted it
-Did a lot of physical training
-Taught about weapons and tactics
-Fired pistols, rifles, flamethrowers, bazookas, anti-tank weapons, and machine guns
-Basically, every weapon used by any unit equal to battalion or smaller
-Learned how to lead a fire team, a squad, and a platoon
-Also learned about tactics used for a company
�-Mostly focused on platoon leadership
-Excellent training
-In Vietnam he was able to react without thinking
-Trained by veterans from the Vietnam War
-Taught how to lead in Vietnam, but how to lead in other situations outside of Vietnam
-Emphasis on jungle combat, but also on urban warfare
-The Basic School lasted five months
(00:10:43) Artillery Training
-Sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for Artillery Training
-Main artillery training installation for Army personnel and Marine officers
-Main unit was an artillery battery
-Consisted of three components: guns, fire direction center, and forward observer
-Fire direction center took in coordinates and translated it for gun crews
-Forward observer recorded coordinates
-Learned how to adjust coordinates as a forward observer
-Learned how to do calculations in the fire direction center
-Learned how to operate the artillery guns
-Trained with the 105mm and 155mm howitzers
-Lived off-base with his wife in an apartment
-Conducted live-fire exercises
-Had minimal contact with the civilian community
-Focused on training
-Lasted four or five months
(00:15:14) Deployment to Vietnam
-Flew out of Chicago on April 5, 1968, the day after Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination
-Shortly after the Tet Offensive in late January and early February 1968
-Resigned to it
-Flew out of California
-Stopped in Okinawa en route to refuel
-Helped inventory on armory for a few days
(00:16:46) Arrival in Vietnam
-Landed in Da Nang, South Vietnam
-Hot and it stank because of the rice paddies
-Told he'd be sent north to join an amphibious task force
-Traveled with a warrant officer who gathered intelligence in local communities
-Taken to Phu Bai
-Didn't have any weapons
-Landed at a steep descent to avoid mortars
-Stayed in Phu Bai for a few days
-Went into Dong Ha
-He was eating in a restaurant while the warrant officer talked to the owner
-Told Ed they needed to leave and get back to base
-Had been informed a major attack was being planned in the area
-That night, he saw fighting in the hills
(00:20:07) Joining Whiskey Battery
-Battalion was ashore
-Split into battalion forward and battalion rear
-Battalion forward was in combat, and battalion rear carried out administrative duties
-He was sent to Direct Support Battery
�-Told to pick up combat gear
-Bloody, damaged, and had bullet holes in helmets
-Gear gathered from the wounded or the dead
-Drove home the reality that he was in a combat zone
-Assigned to Whiskey Battery in BLT 3/1 (Battalion Landing Team 3rd Battalion 1st Marines)
-Infantry battalion with artillery unit and tanks
-Task force that operated up and down the coast
-Went ashore during action, then returned to ship when things calmed down
-Battalion had been fighting along the demilitarized zone (DMZ) since the Tet Offensive
-Driven out to the unit
-Went on the route the French had used in the 1940s and 1950s and had been destroyed
-Joined Whiskey Battery at Camp Carroll near Cam Lo
-Other lieutenants and the company commander greeted him
-Brought him to the fire direction center
-He was the lieutenant with the least experience
-Minimal amount of combat at the time
-Whiskey Battery was a support battery
-Had a 4.2 inch mortar mounted a 75mm howitzer carriage
-Capable of being transported by helicopter to the field if necessary
-Stayed at Camp Carroll for a few weeks
(00:26:23) Operating out of Ca Lu
-Moved west to Ca Lu Combat Base, east of Khe Sanh
-Tasked with salvaging ammunition and occasionally firing support for infantry in the field
-Heard firefights a kilometer away from his position
-Sometimes bullets flew over his head, but they didn't take rocket fire like at Camp Carroll
-Did Fire Direction Center work
-Mostly fired harassment & interdiction fire
-Firing a specified number of rounds, at random coordinates, at a specified time
-Never knew if they hit anything, but the point was to scare off enemy troops
(00:28:07) Fire Missions near Da Nang
-Returned to Da Nang to join the 2nd Battalion 11th Marines
-Stopped en route to conduct fire missions in support of the infantry
-Fired multiple missions simultaneously
-Breach of protocol, but necessary
-Had constant communication with the forward observer in the field
-Fired about 300 meters in front of the infantry
-Danger close is 600 meters or less
-Had more error with the 4.2 inch mortar as opposed to the traditional howitzers
-Meant that rounds spent more time in the air and it could alter their trajectory
-Meant that rounds were usually 100 meters off of their intended target
-Infantry didn't like calling in artillery from Whiskey Battery
-4.2in was too inaccurate, wasn't a commentary on the men in the unit
-Usually used the 4.2in mortar to clear landing zones before the infantry landed
-It was hot and boring, most of the time
-Spent the days building up fortifications and occasionally shooting fire missions
-Spent four months in the area around Da Nang
(00:33:25) Going into the Field Pt. 1
-He complained about the lack of action and about wanting to be a forward observer
-Battalion commander said that if he went into the field, and liked it, he could stay
�(00:34:15) Daily Routine in Da Nang
-Days started by getting up, getting new intelligence, and inspecting the guns
-After that he ate breakfast and met with his gun crews
-Cleaned guns and filled sandbags
-Sent men out for work details, policed the area, and fired a mission or two
-He figured out a way to stabilize the mortars so they didn't slide around and affect accuracy
-Filled tires with rocks and put those tires under the mortars which fixed the problem
(00:36:58) Morale & Discipline Problems
-Infantry didn't ask for support from the 4.2 inch guns, which negatively impacted the crews' morale
-Felt like they were just going through the motions and just waiting to go home
-Prior to this, the men felt like they had a mission and a purpose
-Didn't have any issues with drugs or alcohol abuse, at least not when he was there
-Didn't notice any racial tensions, at least none that were apparent
-No insubordination
-Men listened to orders and followed them
(00:38:16) Vietnamese Civilians
-Some Vietnamese civilians were used for construction projects on base
-Had villages outside of the perimeter
-Never made contact with each other
-Separated by barbed wire and an abandoned French minefield
-He and a few other men went beyond the wire to pull weeds
-One of the men noticed that the area had been seeded with antipersonnel mines
-Carefully worked their way back to base
-Fortunately, nobody got hurt or killed
-Angry that no one warned them about the presence of landmines
(00:39:36) Going into the Field Pt. 2
-New lieutenant came into the unit and was given the forward observer position
-Ed thought he would get the forward observer position and be replaced by the new lieutenant
-New lieutenant was wounded, and Ed became the new forward observer
-Worked with men that had done multiple tours in Vietnam and had experience
-Got shot at the first day in the field
-Different atmosphere
-Remembers eating, communal-style, out of a can of pears
-Marched 13 kilometers the second night
-Took mortar fire for the first time in the field
-Passed a small, Vietnamese village
-Saw only women and children
-Ordered to put artillery fire on the village
-He radioed in the coordinates, and fortunately, the mission didn't go through
-Had the same experience two more times
-Saw children riding on water buffaloes, and one officer ordered him to fire
-He refused, and his commanding officer supported his decision
-Went on a few minor operations and conducted a few sweeps
-Went into the mountains
-Had to be medically evacuated because his boots were doing so much damage to his feet
(00:44:12) Recon Outpost
-He was assigned to a recon outpost for two weeks where he could direct artillery while his feet healed
-Fired on Viet Cong troops and taught the recon soldiers how to fire the artillery
-Recon commander wanted him at the outpost if he ever transferred to the infantry
�(00:45:12) Going into the Field Pt. 3
-Went back into the field after his feet recovered
-During one mission a recon squad (eight men) was pinned down and needed artillery support
-Took 25 minutes for the first artillery rounds to land on target
-He reported the error to his regimental commander as soon as he could
-Felt bad, because the battalion commander was at fault
-Felt it needed to be addressed
-Battalion commander took it maturely
(00:46:47) Operation Meade River
-Started a major operation in an area with a railroad line, a road, and two rivers
-A four kilometer by six kilometer area surrounded by 13 battalions
-He went in with the first wave
-One of the helicopters in the subsequent wave got shot down
-His commander was severely burned
-A piece of fuselage hit him
-He was medically evacuated, but was returned to the field
-Had unknown hip and spine problems as a result of not being treated
-Completed the operation
-Saw his first napalm victims
-Charred, unrecognizable, and inhuman corpses
-Almost got hit by their own napalm
-Radioman told the pilot to abort the drop just in time
Part 2 – 43 minutes 34 seconds
(00:00:03) Operation Meade River
-New company commander acted professionally
-Always wore his body armor in the field
-Got helicoptered out of the field after being injured by the helicopter crash
-Remembers their front line taking artillery and machine gun fire
-Assaulted the tree line and got 15 meters inside the line when the Vietnamese opened fire
-He responded by directing artillery fire on the enemy machine gun positions
-Had 105mm, 155mm, and 8 inch howitzers at his disposal
-Someone requested 4.2 inch mortar fire
-Battery wanted to put a round 100 yards in front of his position
-Once the first round hit they would continue to adjust fire toward the enemy
-Ed called in the 105mm howitzers instead because they were more accurate
-One Marine went down, so Ed called in artillery on the enemy position and as they retreated
-Called in 200 rounds of artillery which resulted in 11 confirmed enemy dead
-During the operation he only knew the progress of that operation, but not the war at large
(00:05:38) Transfer to 1st Recon Battalion
-He returned to his battery and was transferred to 1st Recon Battalion and joined a recon platoon
-Sent out patrols of six to eight men to look for enemy
-Usually consisted of a lieutenant or sergeant, a medic or corpsman, a radioman, and riflemen
-Walked four kilometers over the course of a few days, then got extracted
-Objective was to find the enemy then call in artillery or airstrikes
(00:07:08) Recon Patrols
-On his first recon patrol they were walking up a hill when a rock hit the corpsman
�-Dislocated his shoulder and he had to be evacuated from the field
-On his second patrol the Viet Cong ambushed them
-Bullet went straight across his chest, cutting open his shirt and grazing him
-Training kicked in and they immediately returned fire
-One Marine got hit and went down
-The remaining Marines provided suppressing fire while a helicopter came in
-Leapfrogged back to the landing zone
(00:09:54) Observation Posts
-Sent to fixed observation posts where he adjusted artillery fire
-Also taught the Marines at the posts how to better adjust artillery fire
-Spent the majority of the rest of his tour on observation posts
-Knew how to direct accurate artillery fire
-Observation posts were manned by 15 men and sparse
-Established in the middle of nowhere, foxholes, barbed wire, and maybe a bunker
-Observation posts got attacked by enemy forces
-At one observation post they lost a man after Ed left
-At another post, half of the squad was killed, but they killed 400 enemy troops
(00:13:46) Enemy Contact
-Spent five months with the 1st Recon Battalion
-Enemy contact never slowed down during those five months and they were always busy
-1968 was a busy year after the Tet Offensive in late January
-High casualty rates and frequent contact with the enemy
-Always understrength during 1968
-If a company lost 50% of its men the unit was considered to be in good shape
(00:15:20) R&R in Hawaii
-Went to Hawaii for R&R to see his wife
-Wife was concerned about his safety after she saw his wounds
-Spent a week in Hawaii
-Checked out of the hotel on Christmas Eve 1968
-Landed in Vietnam on December 26, 1968
(00:17:34) Vietnamese Civilians
-They were in the middle of a “free fire zone” (all Vietnamese persons were considered fair targets)
-He was in command of one square kilometer
-There were Vietnamese civilians in the free fire zone that had been wounded by artillery fire
-Called in helicopters to evacuate the Vietnamese civilians to a local hospital
-An observation officer flew over the free fire zone and saw the Vietnamese civilians
-Wanted artillery fire called in on the Vietnamese
-Ed refused to call in a strike on civilians
-If the officer pressed the issue Ed would order his men to fire on the plane
-He returned to battalion headquarters and expected punishment for insubordination
-Nothing happened
(00:20:44) Living Conditions in Vietnam
-He remembers being at a place called Go Noi Island
-He was sitting in a hut and watched a huge snake come in and go out
-Drank a lot of coffee in Vietnam, and there were always flies
-For a while he would pick the flies out of his coffee before he drank it
-He eventually got so tired that he drank the coffee with the flies in it
-At night he'd cut a slit trench one foot deep and long enough that he could lay down in it
-Put a poncho over the trench to keep the rain out with his rifle next to him
�-Remembers the Vietnamese attacked their position one night
-He woke up long enough to ask if they needed artillery then fell back asleep
(00:24:08) Rear Duty in Da Nang
-Near the end of his tour he became the company executive officer
-Stationed at the company area in the rear
-Slept in cots
-He was stationed outside of Da Nang near division headquarters
-Went for daily runs on “Freedom Road”
-Rarely left the base
-Went to the beach one Sunday to cook up some steaks
-En route the Vietnamese attacked and blew up an ammunition dump
-Civilians and troops panicked while Ed and his friends were stuck in the crowd
-Da Nang was a primitive area
-Most of the people lived in cardboard and tin shacks on the side of the road
-Very minimal contact with civilians in Da Nang
(00:27:32) Leaving Vietnam
-Left Vietnam in spring 1969
-Stopped in Okinawa for a few days and bought a stereo
-Landed in Los Angeles then flew to Chicago
-Mother-in-law or sister-in-law picked him up at the airport
-Wife completed her senior year of college when he got back from Vietnam
-Flew home in his uniform and didn't experience any hostility
-Had three more years of service to complete before getting discharged
-Took some leave with his wife at the University of Illinois before resuming service
(00:30:00) Stationed at Fort Sill & End of Service
-His next duty station was at Fort Sill, Oklahoma
-Lived in the bachelor's quarters until his wife joined him
-They lived in base housing for married couples then moved into the town near Fort Sill
-Got involved with one of the Catholic churches in town and taught religion classes
-Befriended the priest
-Spoke on behalf of the priest who was a conscientious objector
-Served as the tactics instructor at Fort Sill
-Taught servicemen how to set up an artillery battery
-Two weeks of classroom work
-One week of fieldwork
-Moving artillery pieces then establish batteries
-Did that for two years
-Rewrote the Army doctrine on how to defend an artillery battery
-Approved by the Pentagon
-Spent his third year at Fort Sill working on educational material and working as a testing instructor
-Developed test items and analyzed test items
-During his third year he also served as a technical adviser and a scout for artillery field exercises
-At the end of his Marines enlistment the Army offered him a branch transfer
-He would be able to retain his rank and stay at Fort Sill, but he wanted to go back to college
(00:36:59) Life after Service
-Went back to Illinois for graduate school
-Studied the psychology of human learning
-Eventually got a master's degree in social work and worked as a teacher and as a therapist
-In Grand Rapids he did personnel work for various companies
�-Selection, assessment, safety, wage compensation, etc.
(00:38:21) Reflections on Service
-Has a lot of guilt
-Dealt with a lot of PTSD
-Realized that he's not a pacifist, but we can't go to war unless there's a purpose and a plan
-His PTSD has significantly affected his life and his family's life
-He has worked on it and been able to deal with it
-Feels that he was a good officer
-Saved American lives and Vietnamese lives, and he's proud of that
-Conversely, he is proud of the enemy troops he killed
-His time in the Marines taught him that he was capable of teaching and enjoyed it too
-Suffered from PTSD related nightmares for 15 years after he came back from Vietnam
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_WietechaE1913V
Title
A name given to the resource
Wietecha, Edward J (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-17
Description
An account of the resource
Ed Wietecha was born in Pottsville, Pennsylvania in 1945. He attended the University of Illinois and was part of the Navy Reserve Officers' Training Corps. He graduated and was commissioned as an officer in the Marines in 1967. He attended Basic School at Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia, and received Artillery Training at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. He was deployed to Vietnam on April 5, 1968, and arrived at Da Nang. He first joined Whiskey Battery in BLT 3/1 (Battalion Landing Team, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines Regiment). They operated out of Camp Carroll for a few weeks then moved to Ca Lu Combat Base. He, and the rest of the unit, returned to Da Nang and joined the 2nd Battalion of the 11th Marines Regiment where he operated for four months. He went into the field as a forward observer and due to a foot injury briefly served at a recon outpost. He returned to the field as a forward observer during Operation Meade River (November 20, 1968 to December 9, 1968). After Operation Meade River he joined the 1st Recon Battalion and went on reconnaissance missions and guided artillery at observation posts. Near the end of his tour he served as the company executive officer in Da Nang. He left Vietnam in spring 1969 and spent the three remaining years of his enlistment at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, serving as an artillery instructor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wietecha, Edward J.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf