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Meyer, J.P.
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam War
Interviewee’s Name: J.P. Meyer
Length of Interview: (1:45:58)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “All right, J.P., start us out with some background on yourself, and to begin
with, where and when were you born?”
I was born January 5th, 1947 in Marshalltown, Iowa.
Interviewer: “All right. Now did you grow up there, or did you move around?”
I grew up on a dairy farm in a small community about twenty-five miles north of Marshalltown
called Wellsburg, Iowa.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what part of Iowa is that in?”
Central part.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and did you finish high school?”
I did.
Interviewer: “When did you graduate?”
1965.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you do after you got out of high school?”
I enrolled at South Dakota State University in pre-pharmacy.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then how long did you stay there?”
I was there until April of 1968.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you complete your program there, or…?”
I completed it after my active duty army time. (1:02)
Interviewer: “Okay, and so how is it that you wound up in the army?”
�Meyer, J.P.
I dropped out of school, and I wanted to fly. I had taken flying lessons while I was at South
Dakota State. So I actually went down to the Air National Guard unit in Sioux Falls and got on
their wait list for pilot training. I was number 102 on the wait list, so it didn’t look very likely
that I was going to go to Air Force pilot training. And they required four years of college. The
army would allow you to go through the warrant officer flight training program if you had a
certain number of semester hours of college credit, which I had, so I went down to the post office
in Brookings, South Dakota on April 26th and enlisted in the army for the warrant officer flight
training program.
Interviewer: “All right. Now a lot of people probably don’t even know what a warrant
officer is, so can you explain that?”
Well, warrant officers are—I guess you would consider them technical type officers. They were
in the supply field, logistics, and, of course, during the Vietnam War, most of the warrant
officers were helicopter pilots. (2:10)
Interviewer: “All right, and how do they compare with standard commissioned officers?”
We were below the regular commissioned officers. There were—At the time, there were four
grades of warrant officer. They’ve since expanded it as I understand it, but back then there was—
The grades were W-1 through W-4.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and you could do this without going through all of the things
involved in becoming an officer, but you still get your own things.”
Yes, yes. Yeah, we went through a different type of program.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay. Now when you signed up, how many years were you signing up
for?”
You know, I honestly don’t remember. We had our obligation after flight training, but I can’t
remember exactly what it was.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so now where do they send—Now do you do a regular army
basic training first, or did they send you—”
I went to basic training at Fort Polk, Louisiana in August. It was very hot, and from there—when
we finished basic training—I went to Fort Wolters, Texas for primary helicopter school.
Interviewer: “Okay, so the training at Fort Polk. That was standard army basic training?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So what was that like other than hot?”
�Meyer, J.P.
It was miserable. It was—After I’d been to Fort Polk for about six weeks, I—You just—You’re
so entrenched in basic training. You really don’t think about anything else. It was—It was hot
and, like I said, pretty miserable.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, how did the instructors treat you?”
Like a typical drill sergeant back in that day and age. They’d be in your face, screaming. You’d
be standing at attention. They didn’t physically touch us or hurt us, but you were always thinking
that they would if they had to. That’s kind of how—That’s what the environment was like back
then.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how much of the emphasis was just on drill and discipline?”
(4:00)
All of it. Basically, you did what the army told you to do, and they were, I guess, developing a
mindset of what they were looking for in a soldier.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you training alongside people who were draftees, or were
they all enlistees? Or do you not know?”
There was a mix. We had a lot of draftees.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how did the other guys respond to the treatment?”
We had a couple of guys that—We had one particular guy from Mississippi who was a little on
the heavy side, and I know on one of our marches he just fell out. He couldn’t go anymore. But
everybody was kind of in their own world and struggled to get through it. They—The
environment just gives you a certain mindset like, “Okay, here’s what we’re going to do next.”
And then you always look forward to getting through for the day, so you could get some rest.
And, of course, the barracks were un-air-conditioned, and you’d wake up with your sheets wet in
the morning from sweating all night. It was hot.
Interviewer: “All right. Now how long did that last?”
Eight weeks.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then your next step from there?”
From basic training I went to Fort Wolters, Texas. They took us by bus from Fort Polk,
Louisiana to Fort Wolters. And we got to Fort Wolters, and the TAC officer as they were called
got on the bus and was wearing a shiny helmet liner, carrying a—I think it was some kind of 40
mm round all polished up. And tapping it in his hand and being very nice. And saying,
“Welcome, gentlemen to Fort Wolters, Texas. You’re here for your basic, primary helicopter
training.” And then he just started screaming at us, and he says, “Now you have twenty seconds
to get your you know what off this bus and get in formation.” (6:01) And we were in formation
in the street, and it was hot in Texas during—in August and September. And we had one
�Meyer, J.P.
gentleman who was prior service as they say. Had medals on and had a—I think he was a staff
sergeant actually. And the drill sergeant came by and ripped his medals off his shirt and ripped
the stripes off his sleeve, and he says, “You’re now a warrant officer candidate, and you’re lower
than whale shit on the bottom of the ocean.” So it was—The first four weeks of helicopter—
primary helicopter school are—I guess you’d call it indoctrination. We didn’t fly. We went to
class, and we were harassed a lot. Middle—Inspections in the middle of the night. Get out in the
street. You’re standing out there in the dark at two o’clock in the morning in formation, and
they’re going through and inspecting the troops. The TAC officer would, and then he’d tell you,
“You’ve got five minutes to get back upstairs, change into your class A’s, and get back out
here.” So we’d go change uniforms and come right back out and get inspected again. That lasted
for the first four weeks, and then once we started flight training, we had to get crew rest. They
were required to give us a certain number of hours of sleep before we could do anything else,
and so the harassment wasn’t nearly as intense after that.
Interviewer: “All right. Now the—So what are you actually learning in the first four
weeks?”
Well, you’re learning—In class we’re learning about the helicopter and how it’s built, how it
operates. Learning basic flying information. Navigation, what air speed means, and things like
that. And you learn a certain amount of—They went through the checklist, and we’d learn how
to start the helicopter. We’d learn how to preflight it. Look for defects. (8:01)
Interviewer: “So were you getting into helicopters but not flying them, or…?”
No, we weren’t. We weren’t allowed on the flight line the first four weeks. We had one
individual who was in our barracks, and, as I recall, his name was Jackie Wilson from Fort
Worth. We had our helmets issued to us, and we had them up on the top of our lockers. And one
day after class, Jackie got his helmet out, and everybody asked him, “What are you doing?” He
says, “Well, I’m going flying.” And he went to the flight line, and he got in a TH-55. And he got
it started. I think—as I recall—he had to have a maintenance man help him get it started. And he
got it up to flying speed and picked it up to a hover. And, of course, he didn’t know how to fly a
helicopter, but now he’s at a hover in a TH-55. And, from what I’m told, he—Actually, what he
thought was—It started vibrating real bad, and there’s a condition called ground resonance in a
TH-55. And the solution for that is to get it off the ground. Pick it up. He thought he was getting
into ground resonance, so he picked it up to a hover. And now he’s at a hover, and obviously he
doesn’t know how to fly a helicopter because he hasn’t been trained yet. And they say he got it
back to the ground, and he bounced on one skid, bounced on the other skid, and then turned it on
its side and destroyed it. He survived, and I think—as I recall—he got court martialed. So that
was an interesting event in our first four weeks of pilot training at Fort Wolters.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now—So for the rest of you—Now did people wash out of
those first four weeks, or did everyone get through?”
Not that I recall. I think we all—We all made it through the first four weeks.
�Meyer, J.P.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so now they actually put you in a helicopter, and do you
start flying right away at least with an instructor, or…?”
Mm-hmm.
Interviewer: “Okay, so how does that process work?” (10:00)
Well, we all go out to the—We went out to the flight line. We each were assigned to an
instructor, and my instructor was the flight commander. So I—A lot of the students flew to the
stage field. We went from the main heliport in Fort Wolters to different stage fields for training
for—to practice. And my—And many of the students were bused out. My instructor was the
flight commander, so he and I got in a helicopter—and that was my first helicopter ride in the
military—and flew from there to the stage field, which was north of Fort Wolters about—oh, I’m
guessing—seven or eight or nine miles.
Interviewer: “Okay. Were you using a TH-55 at that point?”
I was in the Hiller OH-23.
Interviewer: “Okay. Describe that as what—as a machine relative to the TH-55 or
something else.”
The Hiller is probably fifty percent larger than the TH-55. The TH-55 was a very small
helicopter. The Hiller was—had a bubble like the old Bell helicopters. When I describe the
helicopters that I flew back then, I ask people if they remember the old TV show, The
Whirlybirds, because it had the big, glass bubble. It was a two-seat helicopter with a
reciprocating engine. Had a tail boom that slanted up—the TH-55’s tail boom went straight
back—and it was a two-bladed helicopter and vibrated a lot. My first impression when the
instructor picked the helicopter up to a hover—I felt like I was trying to balance—And I wasn’t
flying it, but the sensation I had was trying to stand on top of a basketball on a pogo stick. That’s
what it felt like. So I—You know, your thought is, “How am I ever going to learn to fly this
machine?” But we did.
Interviewer: “Okay, so how does he go about teaching you?”
We’d go out to a stage field that had—I think they each had four lanes, and you would hover
down a lane. He’d teach you to hover first, and we did it off to the side of the lanes. (12:05) And
you could tell students who—when a student was flying and when an instructor was flying
because when the student—New students would take the controls. You’d see the helicopter start
to drift in all different directions and back and side and forward, and all of a sudden it would go,
“Whoop.” Right back to where it started. And you knew the instructor took the controls at that
point. And you just basically did that over and over until you got the feel for how to fly a
helicopter, and it kind of became a natural thing like when you try to learn to ride a bike.
Interviewer: “All right, and so how long then were you doing that?”
�Meyer, J.P.
We were—Well, the entire primary helicopter phase lasted from—I guess we started flying in
September, and we finished, as I recall, in late December. And we learned to hover, and then we
would take off and fly traffic patterns. And, after a while, when the instructor felt like you were
safe enough, he would get out, and you’d have your first solo. And I think I soloed a
helicopter—I think I had nine hours of flight time. And I remember being at Downwind the first
time I soloed, looking down and flying this machine that was shaking and thinking, “What in the
hell are you doing up here, Meyer? You don’t know how to operate this machine.” But I got it
back on the ground safely, and, after a while, it just became very natural.
Interviewer: “All right, and in that level of training, did other people have accidents, or did
everyone get through?”
There were accidents. There were mid-air collisions. I was—We were on a night flight—a solo
night flight—one time, and there was a student in a TH-55 that apparently was lost. (14:04) I
was coming into Wolters main from the north, and they were talking about him on the radio. But
they couldn’t get him to reorient himself, and then I saw a flash of light off to the east. And he
had flown through some high tension wires, and the aircraft hit the ground and exploded. He was
burned very badly. He survived the crash but died in the hospital.
Interviewer: “Do you think you were better off because you had the commander train you?
Was he—”
No, all the instructors were extremely talented people. Good helicopter pilots, good instructor
pilots. Some of them were a little more aggressive than others, and the—Excuse me. And the
commander just flew to the stage field with me. He wasn’t my regular instructor.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay. All right, so now when you complete that, now do you move on
to more advanced helicopters?”
When we completed our training at Fort Wolters, we moved to Fort Rucker, Alabama, and we
started out in the Bell TH-13 in instrument training. We did our instrument training there at Shell
field outside of Enterprise, Alabama, and then, once we finished instrument training, we moved
on to tactical training. And that was done in Hueys. We learned to fly the Huey.
Interviewer: “Now with the instrument training are you actually flying a helicopter and
relying on instruments, or are you on the ground?”
No, you’re in the helicopter under a hood, and flying just by reference to the instruments. You’re
actually not qualified—As a student, we weren’t actually qualified in the TH-13. We just flew it
with an instructor for instrument training, and all of that training was with an instructor. There
was no solo time.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, but then you move on to the Huey. Now how is a Huey
different from the other things you had flown?”
�Meyer, J.P.
It was a lot bigger, and it had—It was a much more modern helicopter. Had better instruments.
(16:03) And it was fully instrumented in terms of flying in the clouds and just a lot bigger,
heavier machine. And it had a turbine engine instead of reciprocating engine, and a reciprocating
engine helicopter—Part of what you have to do when you fly it is manage the RPM, and you do
that manually with a throttle that’s on the collective. In a Huey, it had a governor on the turbine
engine, which would maintain a certain RPM, so you didn’t have to worry about twisting a
throttle. You just pulled—You pulled pitch, and as you pulled pitch, the engine would develop
more power to compensate for the increased power requirement.
Interviewer: “All right, and—So how long now do you spend at Fort Rucker?”
Well, we spent the rest of our training at Fort Rucker, and we graduated in May of 1970. Or—
I’m sorry. ‘69. 1969. And then I went from flight training direct to Chinook transition. When I
was at Fort Wolters, we had a Chinook fly over the field one day, and I was just fascinated with
that helicopter. And I like big machinery. And so I went in to see my TAC officer, which is not
something you typically did back then. You didn’t want to see your TAC officer. But I went in to
see him and asked him how I could get into Chinooks. He said, “Well, Meyer, I’ll tell you what.
Here’s how it works. You’re going to graduate from pilot training, you’re going to fly Hueys in
Vietnam, and if you survive that year, you can come back and we’ll send you to Chinook
transition if that’s what you want to do. And then we’ll send you back to Vietnam to fly
Chinooks for a year.” And I said, “Well, some students get Chinook training right out of pilot
training.” He said, “Oh, yeah, if you graduate first in your class, you might get a Chinook
transition.” (18:02) So I said, “Thank you. That’s all I wanted to know.” And I started gunning,
studying—I had a pilot’s license when I went to the army, so I basically knew how to fly. And I
started studying under the covers at night with a flashlight in the barracks after lights out. And I
graduated first in my class when we finished at Fort Rucker, and we got one Chinook allocation.
So I took it, and what that did—The army decided not long before we graduated that if you got a
certain transition—and Chinook was one of them—you had to sign up voluntary indefinite
status, which means the army had you as long as they wanted you. But I thought the trade-off
was worth it, so I—I had some of my classmates ask me, “Now what are you going to do,
Meyer?” I said, “I’m going voluntary indefinite because I’m going to Chinook transition.”
Because by then you’d heard about all the—We had heard about all the Hueys—Well, I knew
when I went into helicopters that it was very risky, and it was an automatic ticket pretty much to
going to Vietnam. Flying helicopters. So I thought flying Chinooks would be a lot safer than
flying Hueys.
Interviewer: “All right, so now do you go—then go on to Chinook training?”
I went to Chinook transition and then went to Vietnam in August of 1969.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so August of ‘69. So, I guess, when we were—I don’t know—
originally recording your dates—And so you would’ve enlisted in ‘68 then?”
I enlisted in ‘68. Yes.
�Meyer, J.P.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Okay, so the Chinook transition—I mean, how long does
that take, or how complicated was that?” (20:06)
It was—As I recall it, it was a six-week transition. Six or seven weeks. Well, the Chinook’s a
very large helicopter—has two engines, two rotor systems—and it’s not a conventional
helicopter. It’s a tandem rotor helicopter, so it flies a little bit differently. In most respects, it’s
easier to fly because you don’t have the anti-torque system to worry about. It had a stabilization
system because the rotors are equal in size, so the back rotor wants to fly as fast as the front
rotor. So without the stabilization system, it became very unstable and yaw, and it was a little bit
tricky. Boeing made some design changes to it when they developed the B and C model, but the
A model was pretty squirrely as we call it if the stabilization system was turned off.
Interviewer: “All right. Now over the course of your training, you’ve been in Texas, you’ve
been in Alabama, and where do they do the Chinook training?”
Alabama. Fort Rucker.
Interviewer: “Alabama. Okay. Now you’re in—You’re now, you know—You’re now down
south. You’re in the area that is sort of still in the process of desegregating. I mean, did you
notice a different way of life in those places, or did you just stay focused on what you were
doing?”
Not then. I noticed that after I got back from Vietnam and was stationed at Fort Rucker.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, but at this point it’s just all helicopters?”
All concentrated on learning to fly helicopters and being in the military.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now once you complete the Chinook training, do you get some time off
before you go to Vietnam, or…?” (22:00)
I had a month of leave before I left for Vietnam.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you just go back home at that point?”
Mm-hmm. Went back home to Iowa.
Interviewer: “All right. Now how did your family feel about your heading off to Vietnam?”
Well, when I signed up, I didn’t ask my parents, and thinking back, when my son was my age
when I signed up—Thinking about him doing that, I realized how much stress I created for my
parents. My dad—Of course, I’d already signed up, so there wasn’t anything that anybody could
do about it. But he was concerned. He said, “Don’t you know they’re shooting them—those
helicopters down?” And I said, “Yeah, I know, but if your time is up, your time is up.” That was
kind of my—I had a fatalistic attitude at that point, I guess.
�Meyer, J.P.
Interviewer: “All right, and as you’re preparing to go to Vietnam, how much did you know
about what was going on over there?”
During the month that I was home on leave, Khe Sanh was under siege, and I was glued to the
TV watching those events daily.
Interviewer: “Okay, because Khe Sanh was in 1968.”
But it was—Well, maybe it was ‘68 when I was—before I entered. That may have been before I
entered.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, so you’re aware of that, and then ‘69 there was Hamburger Hill
that summer and that sort of thing. But regardless, you’re watching—But you are. You’re
watching the news at that point.”
Yeah, realizing that I’m going to be over there in thirty days.
Interviewer: “All right. Now how do they physically get you to Vietnam?”
I got on a flight in Des Moines and flew to California—the Oakland Overseas Replacement
Station—and got on a Stretch 8. DC-8. And we flew to—It was either Okinawa or Guam. I think
it was Okinawa. To refuel. From California. (24:20) It was the first airplane ride I ever was on
that had a movie, and the movie was Support Your Local Sheriff! with James Garner. I still
remember that, and I’ve got that video at home. And we landed at—We landed in Saigon at Tan
Son Nhut Air Force Base, and—I don’t know—I guess my thought was when we got off the
airplane, there would be rockets landing and bullets flying. And it was just hot, and it stunk. And
then we went through Overseas Replacement training with 101st Airborne Division.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you do that down at Saigon, or did you get up to where the
101st was first?”
We did that in Saigon. They had a training location there. They called it SERTS. Screaming
Eagle Replacement Training.
Interviewer: “All right, and what did that actually consist of?”
Oh, indoctrination about the Viet Cong and the NVA. How they would set booby traps. I think
we actually went on a mini patrol while we were there. They had a—They had wooden bleachers
and had an instructor on a short stage out in front of us—probably twenty feet in front of us—
and he was talking about how the Vietnam would sneak up on you and throw satchel charges and
booby traps. (26:11) And then he kind of led up to it dramatically, and then he kicked a—In front
of him against a wooden—Like a 2x6 or something. We couldn’t see it from our side, but there
was a little detonator there. And he kicked that, and they would—They had grenade simulators,
and he’d explode those. And it just scared the bejesus out of us. Pretty sudden. And I actually
heard after I got—after I talked to some of the guys that I trained in helicopter training with—
that we had two students from my class that were sitting in the front row, and the Viet Cong had
�Meyer, J.P.
snuck in there the night before and put live grenades—What he would do is he’d take a fake
grenade, he’d pull the pin, and throw it out in front of—right in front of the students or the
troops. And they’d snuck in and put live grenades in his box. So he pulled a pin on a live grenade
and threw it out and killed one of my helicopter classmates. So that was the harsh reality of
Vietnam from the start.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so now once you go through that training, now what
happens?”
Well, we got together in a group, and we got our assignments. And when they called my name,
they said, “Meyer, you’re going up to Charlie Company 159th Aviation Battalion in I Corps.”
(28:16) And I said, “101st? They don’t have helicopters.” And there was a—There was a guy—a
group of guys that were going home, and somebody overheard me say that. He says, “Yes, they
do. I just came from there.” So I went up to Phu Bai and joined the Charlie Company. The 159th.
Interviewer: “Okay. How do they get you to Phu Bai?
As I recall, we got there in a C-130.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so military transport plane. Okay, and then what kind of reception do
you get when you join your unit?”
You get welcomed to the unit, and here’s your room. They put me in a room that was vacant, and
there was a set of fatigues in the closet. The fatigues were—had the name Dives on it, and I said,
“Who’s Dives?” And the guy that checked me in said, “You don’t have to worry about that.”
And he took the fatigues out. Well, Tom Dives had been killed in a midair collision just—I think
just a couple of weeks before I got there. So they moved me into his room because it was empty.
Interviewer: “So did you have private rooms in the barracks?”
We each had a roommate. We were two to a hooch we called it. The buildings were plywood.
There were, I think, four rooms on each side of each building, so there were sixteen pilots in one
building. And we had a total of thirty-two pilots as I recall, so we had two buildings in the—what
we called the officers’ area. (30:01) We had a little officers’ club and the two barracks, and then
our commander had his own barracks building.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so there’s four companies in the battalion. Is that right?”
There’s three—There’s four companies. There were three Chinook companies in the 159th
Battalion and a crane company that was located in Da Nang.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so—But your three companies were basically together?”
All at Phu Bai.
Interviewer: “Yeah, all at Phu Bai. Okay, and then how many aircraft—”
�Meyer, J.P.
I’m sorry. The Charlie Company was at Phu Bai. Alpha and Bravo Companies were at Camp
Eagle.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you were at the Phu Bai airport, and they were at Camp—Because
Camp Eagle is near Phu Bai, but it’s not the same.”
Correct. Yeah, not the same location.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. All right, so you’ve got your own—Again, how many
aircraft did you have?”
Sixteen.
Interviewer: “Okay, so sixteen, and would you—And then, with the thirty-two pilots then,
if all sixteen were flying, all of you would be flying.”
Technically, we could man all the aircraft.
Interviewer: “Yeah, because you had to have a pilot and a copilot for each one.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now how quickly do you start flying?”
As I recall, we were flying within a week.
Interviewer: “And how do they work in the new guys?”
You flew with an experienced aircraft commander initially. You were called a peter pilot, and
you had to have a certain number of hours before you would qualify to be an aircraft
commander. I can’t remember what—I think it was a hundred. Can’t remember exactly what that
hour requirement was. But if you—We became short on aircraft commanders to man the aircraft
for the missions, so if you had a certain amount of experience and were considered safe to do so,
you were named first pilot. (32:09) So you flew—You were technically the aircraft commander,
but you weren’t logging aircraft commander time because you didn’t have enough time to do
that, so you were logging first pilot time with a copilot.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you’re starting out with the aircraft commander, they’re
going to gradually give you more responsibility where—so you’d start to do more of the
actual flying in that period. Now under normal circumstances, what does a copilot actually
do?”
Monitor the systems. Monitor the rotor RPM and the gauges and do a certain amount of flying.
And as you spent more time there, you flew more and more. You typically didn’t talk on the
radio. That was the aircraft commander’s job. We all had nicknames, and I got my nickname—it
�Meyer, J.P.
was Lurch—one day when my aircraft commander was busy talking to the crew and one of the
other aircraft was asking my aircraft commander a question or something about something. And
I answered on the radio, and apparently my voice was very deep. And the other aircraft
commander said, “Who is that? It sounds like Lurch.” And that’s how I got my nickname.
Interviewer: “And you’re referring to the character in The Addams Family TV series?”
Yes, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now so when do you actually start flying in Vietnam? What
month was it when you were doing that?”
Well, I started flying in August of ‘69.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now was there a lot of stuff going on at that point, or were things
quieting down?” (34:11)
At that point in time, as I recall, we were doing a lot of missions out into the A Shau Valley, and
Firebase Rendezvous was the main firebase in the A Shau Valley that we resupplied. And then
we resupplied Birmingham and Berchtesgaden as I recall. There were two firebases before we
would get out to the A Shau.
Interviewer: “Yeah, because you have them in the chain of hills that separates the A Shau
from the coastal plain, and that’s where those bases were. But Rendezvous was in it. Now
was it dangerous to fly into the A Shau?”
It didn’t feel like it at the time honestly. There weren’t—When they sent Chinooks out on what
they considered dangerous missions, they would send two Cobra gunships with us, and I don’t
recall ever needing escort for that first six months I was there.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, I think—So, well, August would be after Hamburger Hill when
a lot of the NVA had kind of pulled out or pulled back for the time being.”
Yeah, the A Shau was—After Hamburger Hill, the A Shau seemed pretty quiet.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now was there a point when the monsoon sets in and they have to pull
out of there?”
Yes, I think that they pulled out in late ‘69. I think we pulled everything out of the A Shau
Valley and operated pretty much along the coastal mountains for the monsoon season. (36:00)
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how much trouble does the weather create for a Chinook, or are
there conditions where you can’t operate?”
Well, it was a fully instrumented helicopter, and we flew in the weather in Vietnam in the
Chinook mostly to drop flares for the infantry at night. I remember one particular night where it
�Meyer, J.P.
was low clouds, drizzly, and rainy that we had a flare mission, and I took off out of Liftmaster
and was in the clouds within five or six hundred feet and pretty much spent the whole time in the
clouds flying. And there was a radar controller that would guide us out to the drop zone, and then
we’d set up a racetrack pattern and drop. And then the infantry radio man on the ground would
adjust that drop zone based on where the light was within—One of the things that really was
striking was the first time I went on a flare mission at night in the clouds, we dropped the flares,
and when the flare ignited, the flare would drop. And a parachute would come out, and then it
would float down and provide I don’t know how many thousand candlepower of light in each
one. The whole cockpit lit up. The clouds lit up like it was daytime. And then they’d go out, and
it’d be dark again. And we’d stay up there—Oh, I don’t know how many flare—We had a crate
in the back with all the flares in it, and we’d stay up there until the flares were gone and then go
back.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then what kinds of supplies would you carry?”
We carried mostly ammunition, food and water, and fuel in sling loads. Most of our flights were
sling loads. (38:04)
Interviewer: “So they’re hanging below the aircraft rather than inside it.”
Correct. In nets. And then when an artillery battery would move, we would move them. We’d go
up to the hill where they’re located, pick the tubes up, take them to the new location, and drop
them off. And we called it an arty move, and most of our unit—If we were assigned an arty
move, most of our unit would work on that one mission together until the entire battery was
moved. And then we’d go off and do other missions.
Interviewer: “All right. Was there cargo that was harder to transport than others?”
It was usually based on weight. A 155 Howitzer is a lot heavier than a 105. Some of our other
missions would involve going and getting—recovering down helicopters, and the Cobra was a
very heavy helicopter. We had to be quite low on fuel to pick up a Cobra. I remember distinctly a
Cobra that was shot down and sitting on a sandbar in a river with high ridgelines on each side.
And we were resupplying a firebase and flying over that site, and there was a lot of talk on the
radio about, “How are we going to get that Cobra out of there?” And I was flying—Some of the
Chinooks were more powerful than others, I guess. I’m not sure why, but we had—And they—
And our—Some of our aircraft had been upgraded to what were called Super C’s where they had
bigger engines, and I was flying a Super C that day. And I told everybody on the radio—I said,
“I think I’ve got—I’m down to a fuel load where I think I can pick that Cobra up.” I said, “I’m
going to go down and give it a try.” So I went down, and the riggers were down there. (40:00)
And I went down and hovered over the Cobra and picked it up. And I got it off the ground, and I
got it off high enough. But the crew chief thought it was safe to go, so we took off. And I took
off down the river to gain airspeed, and I started climbing. And I climbed, and I climbed, and I
climbed. And I’m looking up at these ridgelines like, “Golly, we’ve got a ways to go yet.” And
then you’re thinking about, “I wonder how many NVA can see us flying slowly, climbing with
this Cobra slung underneath us.” But we retrieved it, and it was one of those memorable
moments in flying in Vietnam because when we got back to Camp Evans with the Cobra—And
�Meyer, J.P.
we had—We must’ve had a hundred foot sling on it. So we’re hovering a hundred feet in the air,
setting this thing down very gently, and set it down and release the sling. And the maintenance
and the pilots from the Cobra company were down there, and they were just cheering and waving
because we brought their Cobra back to them.
Interviewer: “All right. Now you said that the first several months you’re there were fairly
quiet in terms of having to deal with enemy. Do things get more intense later on?”
One thing I—Things seemed to escalate slowly during the monsoon season. One thing that—So
the things we were worried about in the monsoon season were getting up to the firebases in the
clouds. We had guys that actually hovered up the side of mountains to get up to firebases to
resupply. We had other guys who got to the firebase with the low clouds, but when they got right
over the firebase went into the clouds. And that’s a pretty urgent situation because you really
can’t start letting down because you don’t know what you’re letting down into. (42:06) So you
have to take off—You have to accelerate in the clouds and come back around and get radar
vectors or whatever you might get to get out of the clouds and then try again to get back up to the
firebase. But as long as you maintained visual with the ground or basically the trees out in front
of you, you could actually hover up the side of a mountain. If you had enough clearance so that
your sling load didn’t drag through the trees, you could get up to the firebase and resupply them
because we’re the only—We were their only lifeline for food, water, ammunition. The other
thing that was happening occasionally—and I only know of a couple instances—was that the
NVA would get on the radio, and they would intercept you on the radio assuming you—They
would imitate the ground control—the GCA approach controller—and they’d start radar
vectoring you. And they actually radar vectored a Cobra into the mountains on one occasion.
And I was out there flying on a flare mission one night, and we were being vectored back to Phu
Bai. And the controller had us going west for some reason, and I told my copilot. I said, “If we
go west for one more minute—” I said, “We’re turning around and heading for the coast and
letting down under the water.” Because I wasn’t sure who I was talking to, and then he turned us
back. And it was actually one of our guys, and he vectored us back into Phu Bai. But that’s—As
I recall, that’s about the time that things started to change in terms of hostile activity in I Corps
for us.
Interviewer: “Okay, and now for the ground units and so forth, I mean, there up until
about March of 1970, they’re mostly kind of in the lowlands or in the foothills and not
going farther inland too much. There were some missions up to the DMZ and things like
that. Now did you also support like the ARVN 1st Division or the Marines?” (44:24)
We did. We’d haul—When we hauled the ARVNs—Some of those flights were interesting
because they would take animals with them. I know we had one load where we were carrying
ammo for them, and they had ducks in the net. And the—When they—Ammo crates—We’d pick
the load up in the net, and that pushed the ammo crates together. And some of the ducks were
down in between the crates and, of course, got smashed. They probably ate them first when they
got to the firebase. And I had a load of ARVNs that I picked up inside the aircraft one day, and
we took off. And we’re headed out to a firebase, and I look down at the—The Chinook had a
little—The cockpit was separate from the back, and there was a little companionway we called it
that you went through to get into the seat. And I look down, and there was a pig standing in the
�Meyer, J.P.
companionway. And I said over the intercom—I says, “Chief, get that damn pig out of the
cockpit, will you?” He was just standing there looking at the instruments.
Interviewer: “Yeah, well, soldiers brought their own food with them.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now in March of 1970, the 101st makes their first effort to
set up what would become Firebase Ripcord, and that mission aborted. And then they try a
second one the first of April, and then eventually the middle of April they start. Now how
much were you involved with that stuff?” (46:05)
I remember the insert into Ripcord vaguely. It was just another firebase insert. We’d take a dozer
up there. We carried what was called a mini dozer. It was a very heavy load. We would take the
body of the dozer up there, and then we would take the tracks and the blades separately. And
then the troops would assemble the dozer up on the hill, and then they would use the bulldozer to
doze off the top of the hill and create the setting or the ground for the firebase. And then we’d
pull the dozer off and bring in the artillery and all their supplies and do an arty move. And then it
was—After that, up until it was evacuated, it was a matter of resupplying Ripcord, and initially
we could fly in there, and they—Ripcord was a two-tiered firebase. They had an upper on the hill
where the guns were, and they had a lower area that was called a log pad. And the log pad was
just to the north, northeast of the hill proper, and that’s where we’d drop our loads. And then
they had a little trail between the two where they’d take their supplies up to the hill. So we would
come in in the lower log pad, and it was just a routine resupply for the first, I guess, couple of
months that we were resupplying Ripcord. And then it got hot.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now before it got hot at Ripcord, had you had other situations or
places where you were taking enemy fire or getting shot at?”
I got shot at four times that I know of in Vietnam. (48:00) We were on a routine supply back in
the fall of ‘69 out to Rendezvous in the A Shau Valley, and the crew chief came up in the cockpit
one day with a AK-47 round in his hand. And we looked at it and said, “Where’d you get that?”
And he said, “I looked up—” And he said, “There was a hole in the soundproofing.” He said, “It
must have come through the cargo hold.” And it was lodged in the soundproofing overhead, and
he took it out. And then the second time I got shot at, I was on a flare mission over the A Shau.
We were dropping flares over Firebase Henderson, I believe, on the east side of the A Shau
Valley, and when we briefed for the mission, part of the briefing indicated that there was a 37
mm in aircraft sight on the west side of the valley across from Henderson. And we were at
eleven thousand feet with the lights out, and we’d been up there dropping flares for probably
forty to forty-five minutes. And the crew chief or my right door gunner—As I was turning in the
racetrack pattern right after a drop, he said, “We’re taking fire. We’re taking—” And he got real
excited. He said, “We’re taking fire, sir. We’re taking fire. It’s coming up through the rotor
system.” And I started jinking—you know, getting away—to the left. And I said, “Okay, they
know we’re up here.” I said, “We’re going to depart and let the C-130 come in and drop from
high altitude.” And the pathfinder on the ground was just begging for—He says, “We’ve got to
have light. We’re in hand-to-hand combat down here, and we don’t know the good guys from the
�Meyer, J.P.
bad guys. And we’re trying to clear these bunkers.” And I—I said, “Okay.” I said, “They didn’t
get that close.” (50:00) So I turned around, and I went back in. And about my third pass, I saw—
It was flak in front of flashbulbs just like getting your picture taken, and it was level at our
altitude. And I turned, made a sharp bank, and got out. I said, “All right, we’ve got to leave now.
We’re going to get hit.” So we had to leave the area. That was the second time I got shot at. The
third time I got shot at was on what was known as Operation Lifesaver. The general—
commanding general—apparently wanted an emergency landing zone in every thousand meter
grid square in I Corps that were in our area of operation. So our mission was to pick up combat
engineers and take them out to an area that had been selected as an emergency landing zone on a
hilltop and drop them off in the morning. They would clear trees, blow stumps, and create a
landing zone big enough ideally for at least a Huey, and then we’d go pick them up in the
afternoon. Sometimes when we dropped them off, we could get the back wheels on the ground
and hover the front end, and then they could lower the ramp and just get off in the LZ. Other
times we had a seventy foot cable ladder that they would go down off the ramp. Well, in this
case, we couldn’t land. They had to go down the cable ladder. And when we were on our way
out there, the pathfinder who—They put a security force on the ground before we would go in.
The pathfinder asked—He says, “Where are you guys?” I said, “Well, we’re en route. We’re
about five minutes out.” (52:02) And we were pretty high to stay out of small arms range. We
were probably flying at four or five thousand feet, and I asked him—I said, “Is the area cold?”
“Yep,” he said. “The infantry got on the ground. Not a shot fired.” I said, “Okay.” And I looked
over to my copilot. I said, “Jeff, they’re going to get somebody killed in this mission one of these
days.” And so I was the company instructor pilot by that time, and I was giving—My copilot was
Jeff Brockmeyer, and he was upgrading to aircraft commander. So I was giving him an aircraft
commander check, and I told him when we started—I said, “Jeff, I know you know how to fly
the aircraft.” I said, “You run the mission. I’ll fly the aircraft. If you have any questions, just ask
me.” So I was flying, and I came into the LZ at a high hover. And the—I dropped off the sling
load, and the sling load was dynamite, gasoline, chainsaws. To clear the area. And right after we
dropped off the sling load, all hell broke loose. I heard a lot of popping. It sounded like—What I
recall—The sound of being on a basic training firing range with all the—Everybody shooting.
And everything happened very fast, and about that time a round went through the cockpit,
plexiglass flying. And Jeff, my copilot, threw his hands up in his face. I thought he was hit, and
the crew chief said, “We’ve got people hit back here. We’ve got oil all over the place.” Well, I
instinctively—When that happened, they hadn’t put out the ladder yet. Thank goodness. And
there was nobody—So there was nobody on the ladder. But I instinctively pulled off the hill,
started going down the ridgeline down towards the valley, and our caution panel lit up like a
Christmas tree. (54:06) And I saw the oil transmission pressure caution light come on, so—And
Jeff was talking to the Cobra gunship pilots on the radio, and I was—I saw the transmission oil
pressure light, so I—There’s five transmissions in a Chinook, and there’s a selector that will tell
you what the pressure is in each one individually. When I got to the main transmission, the
pressure gauge went all the way to zero, and I said, “Jeff, they’ve got the C-Box. We’re going to
have to set it down.” And I’m going down there towards the—I’m looking for a place to go, and
I’m looking down in the river bottom, and there’s no place to go down there. And about that time
Jeff was talking on the radio, and he switched over to intercom. Apparently, the Cobra pilots
were looking at me—at the angle that we were going and saying, “Are you going to make it? Are
you going to make it?” And Jeff says, “Are we going to make it?” And I said, “Hell yes, we’re
going to make it.” And I pulled back on the cyclic and did what we call a cyclic climb and
�Meyer, J.P.
pitched the nose up, and now I’m looking at the next ridgeline. And there’s a break in the trees. I
said, “We’re going in right up there.” (56:01) I said, “Get the 60s off the mounts, put them at two
and ten o’clock position, get somebody off the tail.” And I said, “We’re going in up there, and I
don’t know what we’re going into. Get ready to duke it out with whoever’s there because we’ve
got to land.” So I got up, coasted to a stop, and that was ironically a previous Operation
Lifesaver landing zone. And it wasn’t quite at the top of the hill, so I set the Chinook down. And
it started to roll, and I picked it back up. And I hovered up the hill a little ways, and there was
a—about a two foot or three foot tree stump. And I planted the front end on the tree stump and
let it—And slowly let it down and it settle, and everything was stable. And we just pulled
everything to stop, and, you know, we’ve got guys screaming in the back. We had sixteen people
on that aircraft. Five crew members and eleven combat engineers. Out of the eleven combat
engineers, nine of them were shot. My left door gunner had a round in the hip, and the Huey
came in and landed behind us and took nine out of the eleven—We had two wounded guys that
stayed on the hill because the Huey couldn’t take everybody, but he took the most critical ones.
Two of those combat engineers ended up dying as I was told later, and they had a ready reaction
force that would come out and rescue downed helicopter crews. And they activated the ready—
the rescue force, and we could hear the Hueys orbiting way off in the distance. You can hear a
Huey from a long ways, and, you know, my thought was, “Why aren’t they coming to get us?”
(58:00) Well, we weren’t on the hill more than about five minutes after the Huey had come in
and took our wounded guys, and we heard this—It was an artillery shell coming in, and it
sounded just like in the movies. Comes whistling in, and there’s a big explosion. And the ground
shakes, and I asked my—One of our door gunners had been in infantry troop. He—And I said,
“What the hell was that?” He said, “That’s our artillery.” There was a fire mission going from
somewhere east of us. They were firing at what I didn’t know at the time. But was a North
Vietnamese regimental base camp area. Was based at the base of this hill not far from Ripcord.
So finally the Hueys came in. The Cobras stayed with us. We couldn’t talk to them because they
shot out all our radios, and our survival radio didn’t work. But they kept making—They weren’t
shooting, but they were making gun runs. And they stayed with us, and the Huey finally came in.
And the infantry was very impressive. I’ll never forget that. They came in, and they got off the
Huey. They huddled up just like a football team, and the lieutenant said, “All right, you guys
here, you guys there.” And he designed the perimeter. He said—And it’s just like, “Okay.
Break.” And they all spread out and did their thing, and then he came up to me. And he said,
“Who’s the aircraft commander?” I said, “I am.” He said, “Well, sir, you picked an interesting
place to go down.” I said, “Why is that?” He said—He pulled out his map. He said, “We’re on
the top of this hill right here.” He said, “All around the base of this hill is a North Vietnamese
regimental base camp area.” And I said, “That’s very interesting. How soon are we going to get
off this hill?” So the Huey that had taken the wounded guys to the hospital came back and picked
us up. (1:00:02) We were on the hill for an hour and ten minutes. The—We had radioed back
once the infantry got on the ground. We had radioed back to the—our company. The crew chief
went up and inspected the damage and thought if we—They hit the return oil line from the main
transmission, and he said, “If you send the line out in some oil, we’ll—We can fix it right here
and fly it out of here.” And our commander radioed back. He said, “No, you guys have had
enough for one day. We’re getting you off the hill.” So they evacuated us, and Jeff and I were
sitting in my hooch having a beer at about three in the afternoon. And somebody came racing in
and said, “502 was shot down, and it crashed.” I said, “No, it didn’t.” I said, “We were in it. It’s
just—It’s sitting out there.” “No, no. The maintenance crew went out, and they recovered the
�Meyer, J.P.
aircraft. And they crashed.” So the maintenance—So what happened was the commander sent
two maintenance pilots and two maintenance technicians out to the hill with a line and the oil,
and they fixed it. And they cranked it up and did a hover check. Everything checked out, so they
took off and headed direct for home. And I had told Jeff—I said, “If we get this thing fixed—” I
said, “We’re going from here to Ripcord because it’s only about three or four minutes. And set it
down and check it out.” Well, they took off, climbed altitude, and headed for Phu Bai. After they
were at altitude, the oil that had leaked out of the transmission had streamed down by the
engines, and it caught fire. So the whole back end of the aircraft was on fire, and they made an
emergency landing. They crash-landed on a sandbar at a place called Three Forks, which is south
of Ripcord a ways, and the—They hit the sandbar so hard that the front—the cockpit broke off at
the cockpit slice and went into the river. (1:02:15) Underwater with the two pilots in it. The two
maintenance technicians were thrown out the opening that was created when the cockpit was
gone, and they were in the river. They had made a mayday call when they went down, and
another Chinook went in and picked them up. They all survived and relatively uninjured. They
had some burns because by the time they got on the ground, the pilots told me that the flames
were lapping up in the cockpit. But they survived. But the aircraft never made it back. It burned
right on the sandbar. That was the third time I got shot at. The fourth time I got shot at was—I
was actually giving a new pilot an in-country orientation ride. So when a new pilot came in,
you’d get in the aircraft with somebody—usually the company instructor pilot—and then just
basically tour the area. “Here’s our area of operation.” And we were up west of Quảng Trị by a
place called Firebase—I’m blanking on the name, but we were just south of the DMZ, and I said,
“Well, I’ll show you a little further west.” Which we really didn’t have anybody out there, but I
was basically pointed towards Khe Sanh. And I made a turn to go back to the south, and I could
hear the—We started taking fire. I could hear bullets. Well, there was—Apparently, there was a
.50 caliber machine gun in a culvert in one area, and he would roll it out and shoot at helicopters
and then roll it back into the culvert. (1:04:00) And Cobras finally got him, but he shot at us.
And you could hear rounds going by the aircraft, and we exited the area. Fortunately, they didn’t
hit us.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you flying to Ripcord in July of 1970 when things got
interesting?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So talk about that phase.”
That was pretty exciting. My technique for getting in and out of Ripcord when it was really
under siege and being mortared regularly was to fly directly at the mountain with a sling load, do
a cyclic climb, and time it so that you slowed down and basically came to a stop right over the
lower log pad. And set your load down, release it, and get out. And it wasn’t uncommon for us to
be leaving the firebase and hearing mortars land behind us because when we hovered in to drop
off a load, we created a lot of dust. And the NVA could see the dust. They’d put the mortars in
the tubes, and we’d be gone by the time the mortars came down and hit the firebase. But at least
three or four times when I brought loads in there, it was—I could hear mortars landing.
�Meyer, J.P.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you always put the loads on the log pads, or did you ever put them
anywhere else on the base?”
No, we were told back during that time, “If you put your nose up on top of the hill, you’re
probably going to get shot.” So we stayed below the—Basically use the top of the hill to screen
us from small arms fire on the lower log pad.
Interviewer: “All right, but now eventually a Chinook does get shot down over Ripcord,
and they’re over the artillery positions at the time they’re doing that. And I was told they
were actually trying to put some of the artillery rounds closer to where the guns were.”
That must’ve been their—What they were probably doing is trying to put the load right next to
the guns, so that they didn’t have to go down to the lower log pad...
Interviewer: “Right. On top of the ammo bunker pretty much.”
... and haul them up there. So they were going to put them right in the ammo bunker, and they
got shot. (1:06:06) And the Chinook crashed on top of the ammo bunker and basically blew the
entire supply of ammunition up over—It cooked off over time, and I talked to one of the infantry
lieutenants who was quite a ways from Ripcord. And he said there was shrapnel and debris
landing in the trees around them as that was cooking off. I personally was actually in Saigon that
day picking up a brand new Chinook with one of our maintenance pilots. We were on our way
back, and when we got back late in the afternoon, the routine for bringing in a new aircraft was
to a fly-by over the company area, a high speed pass, and then come in and land. Well, we made
a high speed pass over the company, and I look down. And almost all the Chinooks were gone,
and I called the company ops. I said, “What’s going on?” Guy said—He said, “Well, they’re—
Ripcord—” He told me that they’d had a—The ammo supply at Ripcord was blown up, and
they’re up there doing an attack emergency resupply. So they resupplied them at that point, but
that’s when things got really hot.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you go to Ripcord again before the day they evacuated?”
I went in and out of there several times before—Yeah, while it was—I call it—under siege, I
guess.
Interviewer: “Yeah, well, it was under siege.”
It was under siege because we were the only resupply line they had. The Hueys could get in there
and haul troops in, but they couldn’t haul very much ammo. And they didn’t haul ammo.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and at this point, I mean, the 105 battery is not operational, so there’s
just the 155s up there. But were you bringing out 105 ammunition in expectation that they
would put another battery there?”
�Meyer, J.P.
I honestly don’t know. We were carrying high explosive artillery rounds. (1:08:00) We usually
would call in to the pathfinder and say, “We’ve got a load of 105 HE.” But I don’t recall what I
was calling in at the time.
Interviewer: “Yeah, because there was thought of bringing in another battery to replace
the one that had been knocked out.”
Because the guns were destroyed.
Interviewer: “Yeah, the—Yeah. So anyway—Okay, and then now we get to—sort of the
23rd of July when they actually evacuate the firebase. And what do you remember about
that day?”
We had a briefing the night before in our ops. They called all the pilots in and briefed us and told
us what we were going to be doing the next day. And one of the things they said was—I don’t
actually—I assume they did, but they told us that the first load going in there was going to be a
bulldozer. And if you got shot down on the hill, get out of the aircraft because they’re going to
bulldoze it off the side of the hill. And then they asked for volunteers, and I was sitting in the
back. And, of course, my hand went up, and the ops officer said, “Meyer, put your hand down.
You’re going home.” I was—The next day was my last flying day in Vietnam. So they took
volunteers—crews—and then the ops officer came up to me afterwards. And he said, “We’re
going to need you to be on standby.” So he said I’m—“We’re going to have you in the revetment
with the APU running, listening to the radios, and if we call you, you’re going to need launch.”
So we did just that. They—Our company launched, and the other companies launched and went
out and extracted the tubes off of Ripcord. And we were listening to it on the radio, and about—
There was a lot of aircraft getting hit going in and out of there. Some of them disabled and had to
go back and land, and towards the end of the mission, they—The ops officer called and said,
“We need you to launch.” And I thought, “God, this isn’t going to be good.” I don’t know. I just
had the sense that if I go up there today, I’m not coming back. (1:10:01) So we cranked up,
taxied out to the end of the take-off—where the take-off pad was—and we were ready to take
off. Called for clearance to take off, and the ops officer called. And he said, “They’re done. Taxi
back in and shut it down.” That was quite a relief. So I wasn’t actually in on the extraction.
Interviewer: “Okay, and you were in all of the stuff before it.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. Okay, so at this point now do they pack you up and send you
back to the States, or what do you do next?”
We packed up, had a little going away party in the officers’ club, packed all my stuff, got on a C130 at Phu Bai, and flew down to…
Interviewer: “Cam Ranh Bay?”
�Meyer, J.P.
Cam Ranh Bay, Cam Ranh Bay. And spent the night there. A group of us commandeered a deuce
and a half and went down to one of the—actually one of the local off base restaurants and had
Vietnamese food. And then left on a Freedom Bird as they called them the next day.
Interviewer: “Okay. Some—To kind of back up a little bit to sort of life in Vietnam, what
was daily life like when you weren’t flying?”
We played a lot of poker, drank a lot of beer. People asked me what I did in Vietnam. I said,
“Well, I flew all day one day, and I drank all day the next.” I didn’t actually do that, but…
Interviewer: “Yeah. Did they—Did you ever go off base?”
I went off base one time into Huế on a tour. We toured Huế—The citadel I guess they called it.
That was an interesting tour to—The Tet Offensive had done a lot of damage, and there was
just—The walls were marked with bullet—Yeah, bullet marks all over the place, and—But that’s
the only time I recall—other than R&R—getting off base. (1:12:22)
Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go on R&R?”
I went to Hawaii.
Interviewer: “Okay, so were you married at the time, or…?”
I was married. Had my oldest son. I left for Vietnam one or two days before his first birthday.
That was pretty hard. And then my wife was pregnant when I left, and my second son was
born—I left in—It was—I entered Vietnam in August. He was born in November. I didn’t see
him until he was—What was he? Nine months old. But I went on R&R and met my wife in
Hawaii, spent a week there, and then went back to Vietnam.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what’s it like having to go back to Vietnam?”
Pretty depressing. When you’re back out of the—out of the combat environment, out of the
stress, out of the risk, you feel safe, and it was relaxing.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now there’s lots of kind of stereotypes about Vietnam and life in
Vietnam and that kind of thing, and one of them is—particularly on the bases—there were
a lot of issues with drug use and race relations and so forth. Did you observe any of that
yourself, or…?”
Not in our company. We had—I think we had two different—They called them shakedown
inspections where the officers would go down and go through the enlisted barracks looking for
drugs. And I remember one of those for sure. I can’t remember, but I think we might have done
that a second time. But we didn’t find anything. That was the only experience with that concept
the whole time I was there. (1:14:14)
�Meyer, J.P.
Interviewer: “And, I guess—And so your company was kind of in its own sort of selfcontained area pretty much. Yeah, so you’re not really seeing sort of large numbers of
other base personnel and things like that. Did you have any Vietnamese civilians working
on the base?”
We had—The maids would come in and clean our rooms, make our beds, and do laundry for us.
But they were there only during the day. They were moved off base at nighttime, I think.
Apparently, they caught one guy walking off distances in our company area and got him off the
base. We got rocketed when I first got to Vietnam. We got rocketed at night every so often, and I
think what they were aiming for—There was an antenna field just to the north of where we were
living, and I think they were aiming for that antenna field. But you could hear the rockets come
in, and you’d scramble to get in the bunker. We’d go in the bunker, and it was kind of
frightening because you never knew while you were running to the bunker if the next rocket was
going to land right next to you. We did have a rocket hit one of our bunkers, and we had some
pilots in there. They weren’t injured, but it was—It was a good thing they were in the bunker.
Interviewer: “Right. Now did that rocketing—Did that stop at a certain point?”
Seems to me that it stopped about the time the monsoon season started. We would sit out on
our—We had a deck off the back of our officers’ club on the south side of the building, and we
would sit out there at night and watch Cobras working in the lowlands. (1:16:09) You could see
their tracers coming down., and you could see—They called them Dusters. I don’t know whether
they were Quad-50s or what they were, but we called them Dusters. And you could see their
tracers going out, firing, but that—a lot of that activity seemed to stop about the time the
monsoon season started. And during the monsoon season, there were times when we didn’t fly
for up to a week at a time, and we had one—We had one storm that dropped twenty-three inches
of rain in twenty-four hours.
Interviewer: “Okay, so once you get back from Vietnam, what do you do next?”
I—When I was in—I got my assignment out of Vietnam. I was assigned to Fort Benning,
Georgia because I had taken a direct commission. The army was short on commissioned officers.
They were offering direct commissions if you had—if you were a chief warrant officer grade 2,
which I was, and if you had a certain number of semester hours of college credit. So I qualified,
and so the—I don’t know. We were kind of ornery as warrant officers, and I was actually going
on R&R when that notice came out. And my roommate—who was the admin officer—called me,
and he—And I was in the officers’ club at the crane unit in Da Nang waiting for my flight to
Hawaii the next day, and he—I’m in the officers’ club, and I get a phone call. And I went, “Uhoh. Somebody died or something.” Because you never got a phone call in Vietnam. (1:18:06)
And it was my roommate, and he told me that the army was offering direct commissions if you
had the qualifications. And he said—I think there were—I don’t know—four or five or six of us
that qualified, and I said, “What are they offering?” He says, “Second lieutenant.” I said, “What
branch?” He said, “Infantry, artillery, armor, and signal.” I said, “So what do you think we ought
to do?” He says, “Well, we’re all going to—We’re all going to apply.” He said, “We can always
turn it down if it comes—when it comes back, so we’re all going to apply.” I said—He said, “Do
you want to apply?” I said, “Well, I guess so.” He said, “What branch?” I said, “Signal.” He said,
�Meyer, J.P.
“Okay.” I said, “What do we have to do?” He said, “We’ve got to sign a postcard and send it
back to DA.” Department Of the Army. I said, “Okay, well, sign a postcard for me and send it
back.” So we did. When I got back from R&R, on the bulletin board in the officers’ club—It—
Like I said, we were kind of ornery. Somebody—One of the warrant officers had put up a little
notice: “Send in your picture postcard and ten C-ration box tops for direct commission to second
lieutenant.” And so in July—I was due to go home in August. In July, the commissions came
down, and I was being commissioned second lieutenant infantry. So I decided since I was so
close to going home—And one of the questions I had from my admin officer—my roommate—
was, “Hey, they’re going to commission us to second lieutenants and send us to the field as
grunts.” (1:20:07) He said, “No, they can’t do that. We’re not qualified.” He said, “We’re going
to be pilots.” I said, “Okay.” So I took the direct commission. Well, because I was infantry, they
were going to send me to Fort Benning, Georgia. I don’t want to go to Fort Benning, Georgia. I
wanted to go to Fort Rucker and be a flight instructor. So I went to Fort Rucker. I actually got
my orders changed and went to Fort Rucker.
Interviewer: “How did you get your orders changed?”
I don’t recall exactly, but I’m sure I sent in a request. A Twix as we called them. It’s like a fax
nowadays. Sent a Twix back to DA, and they changed my orders. So I went to Fort Rucker from
Vietnam. I got back in—Would have been August because we were there exactly a year. And
was assigned to the Student Battalion in the administrative office. And basically my job—my
primary job—was to coordinate the graduation parties and to make sure that the colonels all got
seated by date of rank, and you didn’t seat one colonel whose wife didn’t like the other colonel’s
wife next to each other. And that was my job in the—I was in S1 I believe it’s called. So I was
there for six months. After I was there—They told me, “We’re going to put you in here for six
months, and then if you want to go fly, you can.” So once I was there for six months, I requested
reassignment to the—to Shell Army Heliport where we did instrument training in the TH-13, and
that’s what I did for the rest of my tour.
Interviewer: “Okay, so how long did you wind up doing that?”
From—Would have been early 1970 to 1972 when I got off active duty. (1:22:09)
Interviewer: “Well, it wouldn’t be early 1970 because—”
I’m sorry. Late 1970. Early 1971. Because I would have been in the Battalion for six months,
from—Yeah, you’re right. From August to six months later, which would have been early ‘71.
And then I went to Shell Field and was an instructor.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now at this point do you—What do you do next? I mean, do
you stay in the military in some fashion, or…?”
Let me answer a question you asked early on. When I was assigned to Shell, we lived on an
acreage that we found out in the country on a dirt road rented to us by a couple of bachelor
peanut farmers in a little farmhouse. Tiny house. You asked about—You were implying
discrimination. When we left—When I got reassigned after my tour was done, the landlord came
�Meyer, J.P.
to me and said, “Now, you know, if you’ve got any buddies that want to live out here in the quiet
country—” He said, “You let them know and steer them towards me, and we’ll rent them this
house when you leave.” And they said, “But, you know, we don’t want—” And he wouldn’t say,
“We don’t want any black people out here.” But he implied that. I said, “Yeah, I know what
you’re talking about.” I was from the Midwest, and we didn’t—There just wasn’t the prejudice
in the Midwest there was in the South. And so I said, “Yeah, I know what you mean.” And then I
had another experience. (1:24:04) We had a—One of our instructor pilots was African American
and a very nice gentleman, and I think—As I recall, his name was Danny Johnson. Had a nice
family. Good people. And he would call to rent. He was living on base. He wanted to live off
base. He would call to rent, and they’d say, “Oh, you bet. We’ve got this apartment. It’s great.
Come on out and take a look at it.” He said, “I’d go up and knock on the door, and they’d open
the door. And they said, ‘You know, we just rented that thirty minutes ago.’” He had a heck of a
time finding housing as a black person. So when we—I finished my tour. My family and I
moved back to Iowa, and I had wanted to go back to—Initially when I left high school, I enrolled
at South Dakota State in pre-pharmacy, and I wanted to finish pharmacy school. So I did two
things. I joined a Guard unit because I wanted to keep my military experience going, and there
happened to be a Chinook unit in Davenport, Iowa. So I joined the Chinook unit. And we lived
in Marshalltown, Iowa, and just a week or so after I got out—My dad was a farmer. He had a
heart attack. So we lived in Marshalltown, and I helped a neighbor of ours farm our farm for that
year while I went to junior college. And—a kind of a catch up year—I took courses that were
required for pharmacy school. And then I had—I was in the Iowa Army National Guard, and we
went to summer camp at Fort Ripley, Minnesota. (1:26:04) And I was—My job that summer at
Fort Ripley was to do instrument flight instruction in a Huey. So we basically would get in a
Huey—I’d get in a Huey with two students every morning, and we’d fly around Minnesota.
Well, on one of those days, I actually flew a Huey from Fort Ripley down to Brookings, South
Dakota and met with the dean of pharmacy, and I had been in school there before. And I told him
I wanted to come back and finish, and he said, “Well, if your grades are decent—” I didn’t have
a very good Grade Point Average when I left, and he said, “If your grades are decent—” He said,
“I’ll consider putting you in the class.” So when I finished summer camp, finished at
Marshalltown Community College with a 4.0 Grade Point Average, and called the dean, he said,
“I’ll put you in the class.” Because at the time, pharmacy school was two years of pre-pharmacy
and three years of pharmacy school. So I had finished my requirements for the first two years,
and he put me in the class for pharmacy school. So we moved from Marshalltown to Brookings,
South Dakota, and I finished pharmacy school and graduated in 1976.
Interviewer: “All right, and then you go to work as a pharmacist at that point?”
I did. We moved down to Vermillion, South Dakota where the medical school was because when
I was in pharmacy school my last—my next to last year—I was a second year pharmacy second
semester pharmacy student, and I took a course in pathology. And it was very interesting to me,
so I went to see the pathology professor and said, “You know, I might be interested in applying
to medical school.” (1:28:00) But I thought, “Well, it’s going to be a long shot because of my
Grade Point Average and my age.” I was twenty-seven or twenty-eight years old, and I sat there
and talked to him for half an hour. And age kept coming up, and he said probably some of the
best advice I ever got as a student. He said, “Well, Meyer, let me ask you. How old are you?” I
said—I think I was twenty-seven. He said, “All right, so you’ve got a year and a half of
�Meyer, J.P.
pharmacy school left. You’ll be twenty-eight, almost twenty-nine. Let’s say it takes you a couple
of years to get into medical school. You’ll be thirty-one. Four years of medical school, you’ll be
thirty-five. Two years of—A year of internship, thirty-six. Couple years of internal medicine
residency, thirty-eight. You’ll be thirty-eight years old. You could be a board-certified
internist—internal medicine specialist.” I said, “Oh my gosh, that’s eleven years from now.” He
leaned back in his chair, put his hands behind his head, and he said, “Let me ask you something,
Meyer.” I said, “Yeah, what’s that, Dr. Johnson?” “How old are you going to be in eleven years
from now if you don’t do it?” I said, “That’s a very good point, Dr. Johnson.” So I moved down
to—So the point is I moved to Vermillion. That’s where the medical school was. I didn’t have a
very good Grade Point Average although I did very well in pharmacy school. I maintained about
a 3.75. I went down and started applying to medical school, worked in a retail drugstore as a
pharmacist. One of our customers was the dean of admissions for the medical school. He knew
who I was. He knew what I was—I would go see him and talk to him about what I wanted to do.
And I took the Medical College Admission Test because it’d been so long since I had had
Biochemistry, for instance. My scores weren’t very good, so I took a prep course for the Medical
College Admission Test and increased my scores and kept applying to medical school (1:30:15)
I applied four years in a row. The third year—The second year I applied the dean told me—He
said, “You didn’t make the list.” But he said, “You moved up significantly in the applicant pool.”
Because of my better MCAT scores. So I said, “Well, I’m going to apply again.” And he said,
“I’d recommend you do so.” So I did. The third year I applied I was on the alternate list. I was
thirteenth alternate. I went to see the dean, and I said, “What are my chances?” He said, “Well—
” He said, “You’re on the alternate list.” But he said, “To be honest with you, we never take in
over seven alternates.” I said, “Well, all right, I’m on the alternate list. I think I’m going to apply
one more year.” And he said, “I would if I were you.” So, in the meantime—I applied that fourth
year—I was a registered pharmacist in a small town in South Dakota, not making very much
money, counting pills and typing labels. And I wanted to get out of the Army Guard and into the
Air Force Reserve, so I found an Air Force Reserve unit at Selfridge Air National Guard Base in
Michigan that was looking for pilots that had heavy helicopter time because they had H-3s. And
they took me on, so I moved to Michigan. And I actually worked full-time for the Air Force
Reserve for that year while I was waiting to get into medical school. I didn’t tell them I had
applied to medical school because I just thought, “Well, they don’t need to know that.” So I
worked out there, and they were wanting me to take a full-time job as a flight instructor.
(1:32:01) So I finally did. Chief of safety flight instructor in H-3. Well, they sent me off to—
Because I had transitioned from the Army Guard to the Air Force Reserve, they sent me to water
survival training, land survival training, and an aviation safety officer course, which was taught
at the Air Force Base outside of San Bernardino, California. So I went out there. I was out there.
It was my last week of class, and the phone rang. And again, that’s the only time my phone rang
ever in the BOQ I was staying in. And I answered it, and it was the secretary from the medical
school. And said, “We’re going to accept you to medical school. Where are you? We need to
send you some paperwork to have notarized and sent back to us.” So I signed it and sent it back,
accepted a position in—Medical school started in August of 1980, and for my training that I had
gone through in the Air Force Reserve, I was obligated until September of 1980. So I had a
problem. So I went back, and I talked to my boss. And I said, “Hey. I’m—Before I came out here
a long time ago, I applied to medical school, and I just found out last week I got accepted.” And
he says, “What are you going to do?” I said, “Well, I applied so many years in a row. I need to
do this.” So I sent a letter to AFRS headquarters requesting release from my obligation, and they
�Meyer, J.P.
denied it. In the meantime, I wanted to stay in the military, so I had found a position in the 185th
Tactical Fighter Group in Sioux City in the Iowa Air National Guard in the command post
because they—It required a rated officer. But you didn’t have to be A-7 qualified. We had A-7s
at the time. So I wrote a letter back, and I said, “Look. I’ve already got a position in an Iowa Air
National Guard unit, and I think the Air Force would be better off gaining a flight surgeon or a
physician flight surgeon as opposed to another pilot.” And they agreed with me, and they let me
out of my commitment. (1:34:03) So I moved back to Vermillion and started medical school in
19—in August of—Well, July of 1980.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and did you get through that successfully?”
I finished medical school in 1984. Stayed in the Guard the whole time. After medical school, I
moved to Michigan. I did an internship in Detroit, and then, during my internship, I applied to go
back on active duty in the Navy and the Air Force. And my goal in the Navy was to become
what was called a dual designator to fly as a pilot in Navy jets and be a flight surgeon at the same
time, and the Navy had that program. The Air Force didn’t. So as my internship went along, the
Navy didn’t get the paperwork done. The Air Force did. So I took the Air Force route and went
to flight surgeon training and was assigned to Vance Air Force Base in Enid, Oklahoma, and
after my internship—So we moved to Enid in—Well, it would’ve been July of 1984. I went on
active duty until—It was a three year commitment, so ‘84 to ‘87 I was on active duty in the Air
Force.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what did your job consist of?”
We had a clinic on the base. It was clinic medicine, and our job as flight surgeons was to take
care of the rated personnel. And the rated personnel consisted of student pilots, flight instructors,
and air traffic controllers. So we saw a young, healthy population. It wasn’t especially
challenging, so what I did was I took a job part-time in the local—one of the hospital’s local
emergency rooms as an emergency room physician. (1:36:00) So I moonlighted in the
emergency room while I was in the Air Force, and one of my objectives was to keep my skills up
because you do flight medicine for three years, and now, you know, taking care of a heart attack
is way back in the distance. So I was an emergency room physician. Well, when I finished the
Air Force obligation in ‘87, I—The local medical staff wanted me to take over the emergency
room at the other hospital in town, which was expanding and building a new emergency room
and building on to the hospital, so I agreed to do that. So I became a full-time emergency room
physician in Enid, and I transferred—Once I got off active duty, I rejoined the Iowa Air National
Guard as a flight surgeon in Sioux City. So I would attend drills in Sioux City, and I worked fulltime in Enid.
Interviewer: “And how would you get back and forth?”
I had my own airplane at the time, so I’d commute back and forth to—
Interviewer: “Long drive, not so long flight.”
�Meyer, J.P.
Correct, and actually there were times when the pilots from Sioux City—There was a low level
route that they would fly that went down into Kansas. Well, there was—Occasionally, they
would actually come down to Enid to the Air Force base and pick me up in an A-7, and we’d fly
the low level route back to Sioux City. And then Sunday afternoon be in a Guard drill. We’d
repeat the process, and they’d drop me off back in Enid, which was a lot of fun for me.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now you would have been in the Air National Guard in the
period of the Gulf War in ‘91. Did that have any ripple effects that got to your unit, or did
things just stay normal?”
We had—I don’t know if I’d call it a request or an offer for volunteers, and we did have some
people from our medical unit that volunteered for the Gulf War. And they were sent to—I know
one of our physicians was sent to Florida to backfill a physician’s position that was deployed to
the Gulf War. (1:38:10) So no one went to the Gulf, but they—We had a few people that went to
different places in the United States.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then how long did you stay with the Air National
Guard?”
I was the—I started out as the chief flight surgeon in the 185th Tactical clinic, and then I became
the clinic commander. And then my next assignment was as the State Air Surgeon for the state of
Iowa. So I switched from going to Sioux City. I went to Des Moines for drill, and I was the State
Air Surgeon for the Iowa Air National Guard.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when did you complete that assignment?”
When I retired in January of 2000.
Interviewer: “All right. Now you had been working in Enid, Oklahoma. You now live in
Grand Island, Nebraska. How did that come about?”
Well, I was working as the emergency room physician. I ran the emergency room, and I would
hire other physicians to be the emergency room physician when I was not there. And I had a
partner who was a medical school classmate of mine, and he and I basically took most of the
hours. And then we’d use residents from Oklahoma City to fill in the rest, and I did that until
1992. In late ‘91, the administrator at the hospital came down and was talking to me, and he said,
“You know, you’re one of two physicians on our medical staff who do not have post-graduate
medical education.” Basically, I’d had just an internship and experience. And he said, “And the
other one is retiring.” So I thought, “Well, all right. I probably need to go and do my specialty
training.” So my thought at the time—Because of my pharmacy background, I had—Really,
when I left medical school, I wanted to do anesthesia residency, and the internship I did was a
lead-in to that. And then, during my internship, I decided to change course and go to the—back
to the military for a while. (1:40:08) So I—My choices were to do anesthesiology or do
emergency medicine. The University of Oklahoma had an emergency medicine program. The
University of Kansas-Wichita had an anesthesiology program, and they were—Well, University
of Wichita was a little further than Oklahoma City from Enid but not much. So my thought at the
�Meyer, J.P.
time was, “Well, I’m already doing emergency medicine. I’m not sure I want to go and train for
two years to do something I’m already doing.” An my primary interest had always been
anesthesiology. So I applied to the University of Kansas and completed the residency program at
the University of Kansas-Wichita hospitals, and that program ran from 1992 to 1995. In 1995,
we moved to Woodward, Oklahoma—small town in western Oklahoma—and I was the only
anesthesiologist there. We had a nurse anesthesthetist who was a nurse that does anesthesia, and
we had—It was a fairly—We had a new, young—couple of new, young surgeons, and it was a
fairly busy place. But I grew up in the Midwest around cornfields and beanfields, and now I was
in an environment that looked like west Texas with wind and dry and tumbleweeds. And if you
didn’t ride horses or chase rattlesnakes, there wasn’t a whole lot to do in Woodward, Oklahoma,
so—And I was being—I was on call 24/7, and basically I got tired of the routine. And I told my
wife. I said, “I’m moving back to the Midwest. I hope you’re going with me.” So we moved to—
I had a classmate who was from Grand Island where I live now, and his father and his group—an
orthopedic group—had plans to build their own ambulatory surgery center. (1:42:19) So Dr.
Albers was calling me and telling me and encouraging me to come up. Well, I wanted to leave
Oklahoma, so I actually interviewed in—at a couple hospitals in Iowa and one in Topeka, and I
knew of the opportunity in Grand Island and ultimately decided to move to Grand Island. And
we’ve lived there ever since.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Okay, so to look back on the whole thing, I mean, obviously,
a lot—You know, the standard question that I ask is sort of how do you think your time in
the service affected you, or what did you take out of it? And you said a lot about that
already, but I just want to sort of—Just for yourself as a person, how do you think that this
affected you?”
Well, I got out of the service—You know, I guess I’d have to say I got out of the service what I
wanted. Flight training and experience. Because of the course I took in flight training, in the Air
Force Reserve, in medical school, in the flight surgeon—I mean, I had a terrific time in the
military. I had a lot of opportunity. I got to do a lot of really neat things. I rode in the backseat of
an A-7 all the way from Sioux City, Iowa to Sint-Truiden, Belgium on a deployment for summer
camp one year. I—It was just a really—It was a good time. Got a lot of flying experience and
enjoyed it. On the downside, it took a toll on my personal life. After Vietnam, I got divorced
from my boys’ mother and eventually was remarried to my current wife, and we raised her two
boys. My two boys finished college and are very successful. One’s an insurance executive. One
is actually a physician anesthesiologist pain doctor just like myself who now lives in Kansas.
(1:44:05) We raised my wife’s two boys. One of them finished his degree at the University of
Nebraska in psychology, and he actually works for us in the office. Does—Helps do billing. Her
oldest son just finished his undergraduate degree, and he’s applying to PA school. And then we
had a daughter who was born in 1996, and she now is at the—Oklahoma State University in their
professional pilot program. I steered her towards aviation, but I told her—I said, “I want you to
do this for you. I don’t—You know, don’t do it for me. Just—This is something you seem to
enjoy and be interested in.” And I said, “You can actually go to college and get a degree in
aviation and learn to fly.” And I said, “There’s a pilot shortage going on, and I think it’s going to
run for at least ten years. And the sky’s the limit.” I said, “You’ll—” And I—We talked when
she’s been home, and I said, “You know, Elizabeth, you have the world by the tail if you play
your cards right.” And she just smiles and says, “Yeah, I know.” So it took a toll on, you know,
�Meyer, J.P.
my personal life like I think it did for so many Vietnam vets. It’s just what life was like at the
time. It’s how things were. Lot of stress.
Interviewer: “All right, and you basically kind of over time learned to manage it or deal—
Or things quiet down over time, or…?”
Yeah, they have. I think there are times when a certain situation is difficult for me.
Interviewer: “Yeah, I mean, you saw a lot difficult stuff and went through some very, very
scary things, and those do leave a mark. But you’ve had certainly a very impressive career
and makes for very good stories, so thank you very much for taking the time to share
today.”
You’re welcome. (1:45:58)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-27_MeyerJ2282V
Title
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Meyer, J. Paul (Interview transcript and video), 2018
Date
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2018-11-03
Description
An account of the resource
J.P. Meyer was born in Marshalltown, Iowa, in 1947. He graduated high school in 1965 and attended a pre-pharmacy program at South Dakota State University before dropping out in 1968 to enlist in the Army's warrant officer flight training program. Meyer underwent Basic Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana, and then transfered to Fort Wolters, Texas, for primary helicopter school as well as Fort Rucker, Alabama, for instrument and tactical training. When he was deployed to Vietnam, Meyer joined Charlie Company, 159th Aviation Battalion, 101st Airborne in Phu Bai. His unit participated in the establishment, siege, and eventual evacuation of Firebase Ripcord in 1970. After working an administration job back in the U.S. for the remainder of his tour, he joined a Chinook unit in the Iowa Army National Guard and later graduated with a pharmaceutical degree. From there, he continued his medical studies at vance Air Force Base in Enid, Oklahoma. Meyer eventually became the State Air Surgeon and began going to Des Moines, Iowa, for drill. Meyer finally completed this assignment when he retired in January of 2000.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Meyer, J. Paul
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army. Air Force
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1079737e4584080c01160dda19cba33a.mp4
580d020f740d6cd580ab039cbe40cdf7
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dbe32ac8dedef2368393013fd2526cd4.pdf
672d1136303b0052bff502e082676d0d
PDF Text
Text
Mackey, Michael
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam War
Interviewee’s Name: Michael Mackey
Length of Interview: (55:31)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “Okay, Mike. Begin at the beginning. Where and when were you born?”
Third of February, 1948. Crawfordsville, Indiana.
Interviewer: “All right. Now did you grow up there, or did you move around?”
No. My dad was in the military. We moved to Japan when I was five years old, and we stayed
there for two years.
Interviewer: “So what do you remember about living in Japan?”
Colors. I remember a lot of colors. It was right after the war, and I remember the communists
marching and demonstrating. And, as a little kid, I just remember bright colors. And I remember
my maid vaguely who stayed with us and just little things. That’s pretty—You know.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay, and so where did you wind up going to high school?” (1:00)
I went to high school really in two places. I went to Wai’anae High School in Hawaii, and then
from Wai’anae we moved to Plum Branch, South Carolina. My dad got transferred to Fort
Jackson, and then I graduated from Airport High School in West Columbia, South Carolina.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you graduate from high school?”
1966.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do after you got out of high school?”
I’m trying to—I worked in a sign company. Colonial—houseman—Heights. Building signs for
about eight, ten months, I think, before the army started getting close.
Interviewer: “Okay, so Vietnam was going on. There was a draft going on.”
Yes. Right.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now how much did you know about Vietnam at that point?”
�Mackey, Michael
Just what I’d seen on TV. I remember—I remember helicopters a lot because they were on TV
every night, and that’s the main thing I remembered about Vietnam. It was just starting to really
get hot in that timeframe.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right, so at that point do you decide to enlist before—Or do you get
a draft notice? Or what happens?” (2:05)
No. My dad—He was career military. He had been in—stayed in for thirty-three years. Did all—
He did World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. And he had told me that I need to talk to a recruiter
and start taking tests for schools that the army had to offer. So I took all the tests that I could
think of to take. I hoped to be like a rocket repairman or something where I wouldn’t have to go
to Vietnam. That’s what my endgame was. And didn’t work out that way. And he had called me
one day, and he said, “Mike, you’d better go down and join something.” “In the next few days,”
he said, “you’re fixing to get your draft notice.” So I went and talked to the recruiter, and I said,
“What kind of a school can you give me?” And he said, “Only thing I can give you right now is a
rotary-wing flight.” And I said, “Oh, no. I don’t want to do that.” I said, “I’ve seen the
helicopters on TV. I know they’re getting shot down. People getting killed. I don’t want to do
that.” He said, “Well, that’s the only school I can give you.” Long story short, I took it because
he offered me a four-month delayed entry, which was like an eternity to an eighteen, nineteenyear-old kid. “Four more months? Oh, yeah, I can do that.”
Interviewer: “All right, so when do you report for duty?”
It was in the summer of ‘67.
Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go?”
I went to Fort Jackson thinking that’s where I would do my basic training because that’s what
they had told me. They lied. I got to Fort Jackson. Got checked in. They put me on a bus and sent
me to the airport and put me on a plane to Fort Polk, Louisiana. And ended up there for basic.
Interviewer: “All right, so what was basic training at Fort Polk like?”
Hell. Hot and nothing to do off the base. Of course, we never got to go off the base to begin with.
And scary. Any kid that tells you it wasn’t scary—Basic training was scary. When you get off
that cattle truck, and you have six drill sergeants yelling at you…
Interviewer: “Yeah. Were you expecting that?”
Sort of because my dad had told me kind of what to expect, but it’s never—Hearing what to
expect and being in the middle of it is two different things. But it was—It was scary. (4:06)
Interviewer: “Okay. Were you in good physical shape when you went in?”
Oh, yeah, yeah.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Okay, so you could handle the physical stuff?”
I could handle physical stuff. I actually gained weight in basic training like I guess most people
do. It’s mostly muscle.
Interviewer: “You build up your muscle. Yeah. Okay. Now the guys who were there along
with you…Did you have a sense of where they were from, or if they were drafted?”
Oh, yes. Yeah. And everybody, from poor farm boys to people that were going to be going to
flight school and people who were going to go to OCS—They’re all bunched together in Fort
Polk. That’s where they sent all of us who were going to warrant officer flight school. We all
went through basic at Fort Polk, Louisiana.
Interviewer: “Okay. Okay, so a lot of the guys that you trained with there went with you
then through flight training?”
Well, we all went there. Yeah, but we all kind of went different ways there. In different classes.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay. But do you think you were in a unit that was geared specifically
toward people who were going to go to the flight school, or…?”
No, I don’t really—I don’t really think that was their purpose. I can’t really figure out what their
purpose was to send us all to Fort Polk because there was really nothing different about it—its
basic than any other base. Like I think—
Interviewer: “Yeah. Well, sometimes they would group people with potentially similar
MOSs or similar backgrounds together just—Because they did that.”
Right, but—This is just my opinion. But what warrant officer flight school did—They gave us a
Class 2 flight physical before entering the service to see if we were viable. When you get to basic
training, they give you a Class 1, which is a little bit more serious. They dilate your eyes and all
this stuff. And several people in basic flunked the exam. The physical. So they ended up going to
what they call Tiger Land, which is AI—infantry AIT at Fort Polk. So I think that’s their
purpose. If they flunk you out, or you didn’t pass your physical, they just moved you over here,
and now you’re an infantry guy.
Interviewer: “All right. Or, at least, that certainly happened to some people.”
It happened to several people.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the army for
real?”
That’s a good question. Boy. (6:00) Maybe—Maybe not that bad because my dad had been—All
I knew was military from him, but I—It was not horribly difficult. It’s a big adjustment for
probably anybody to do that.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Okay, and do you think you held up better than some of the other guys,
or…?”
Yeah. Well, some of the other guys. Sure. We had crazy people there. Yeah, one guy tried to
commit suicide several times.
Interviewer: “And how did the instructors treat you?”
I would say—I really didn’t think badly. I mean, I don’t remember ever getting singled out, but
that was my whole thing. My dad just taught me to kind of don’t show—Don’t stand out. Just
kind of be in the middle, and I kind of did that. I just stayed in the middle. I didn’t want to be too
good or too bad.
Interviewer: “All right, so how long did that last?”
The feeling, or the…?
Interviewer: “No, the actual—the basic training.”
Two months.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then is your next stop now starting the flight training?”
Our next stop—And this is about—It ended up being about Christmastime. We reported to Fort
Wolters, Texas for primary flight school. And once we did preflight—You go through preflight
for a month. But we reported there right before Christmas. And we were there about a week, and
they turned us around and sent us home on leave because it was Christmas. So we went home
and then came back. And my—When I got back from leave to Fort Wolters, Texas, my preflight
class was scheduled to be a couple weeks away, so I had time—I would have had time to get my
uniforms ready, and—They’re really picky. They moved me up, so I started like two days after I
got back. None of my stuff was ready, so I’m ironing clothes, sewing patches.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now—So this preflight training—This is also—You’re
becoming—I guess we ought to explain a little bit for an outside audience. You’re becoming
a warrant officer. What is a warrant officer?” (8:10)
You’re becoming—Yeah. A warrant officer is kind of an inbetween rank. You’re a specialist
when you finish whatever warrant you’re in. You’re a specialist in that field. I mean, nobody
expects you to do other things. You’re—This is what you’re trained to do. Like in my case, it’s a
pilot. You might be an ordnance warrant. There’s all kind of different warrants, but all you’re
expected to do is what you’re trained to do. You’re between an officer and an enlisted man, so
it’s a great rank. Nobody really knows what to do with you, so you just do your job.
Interviewer: “All right. Now the first weeks of this training...What’s the focus?”
�Mackey, Michael
The first month of the training, I think, is basically warrant—shadowing people because it’s all—
It’s like OCS. It just—On you all the time. It was probably worse than basic as far as inspections
and messing with you and just trying to get you to—See if they could make you quit. I think that
was the whole purpose. Just to see if they can wash you out.
Interviewer: “And what proportion of the class do you think washed out?”
At that point, I think maybe—It wasn’t a great, great proportion. I think maybe five or ten
percent at the most. It wasn’t a lot.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now are they starting to actually teach you things about
flying or aircraft?”
Yeah, you’re still—You’re going through ground school. Learning about weather. You’re
learning about being an officer. Just learning basic things. And then after that’s over, they, of
course, start flight school, which—Then it gets harder.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now, with the flight school, did they just go ahead—and they put you
into a helicopter with an instructor—and get started?”
Yeah, pretty much. You got a half—Split them in half. One half of the day is the ground school
where you’re learning about flying and all kinds of other things, and then the second half is
actually flying. And they stick you with an instructor, and you find out how uncoordinated you
are.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. What kind of aircraft did you start out in?” (10:20)
OH-13. The Korean Bubble. If you ever watch M*A*S*H, that’s what it was.
Interviewer: “All right, and how easy or hard was that to fly?”
Initially, it was crazy. I had a judge tell me one time—He says, “Flying a helicopter is like sitting
on a beach ball in a swimming pool.” And that’s what it felt like at first.
Interviewer: “All right, and how did the process work? I mean, what kind of stuff were
you—I mean, did you start with taking off, or does the instructor take off and then start
having you do things in flight?”
Now, basically, I think you start out trying to learn to hover. He would sit there and hover the
helicopter, and he’d explain what each control did. And as he explained what each control did,
he’d say, “Okay. Now you’ve got the cyclic, which is the stick.” And he’d tell you what it did,
and you’d hold it. And then, “Oh, that’s not too bad. I can hold the stick.” Then he’d add
something. “Okay. Now this is the collective. This is what it does. Now get a hold of it.” So now
you’ve got two things. Then he’d say, “These are the pedals. You’ve got the pedals.” And, all of
a sudden, you’re all over the place. You just—It’s crazy.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “All right. Now how dangerous was the training?”
Pretty dangerous. Pretty dangerous. We had one kid in our class—he wasn’t in my flight, but he
was in my class—that his first solo, his engine quit. And in a helicopter when the engine quits,
the procedure is to lower the collective and take the load off the blades. He pulled the collective.
The blades stopped. (12:02) And he died.
Interviewer: “All right. Did you have any close calls yourself or scary moments?”
Yeah, maybe scary moments, but it was self-induced. I was chasing a hawk one time while I was
flying solo, and I shouldn’t have been. I got too close to him, and it almost went through the
blades. Did stupid stuff in confined areas. I’d try to take off backwards, and I did—
Interviewer: “How old were you at this point?”
I think I was nineteen.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. That may explain a lot.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “But yeah, that was characteristic, I guess, of a lot of the warrant officers who
were all pretty young.”
Right. We all did the same. We all did the same. We were all crazy. It’s like a kid getting a really
nice sports car, you know.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, and so—Well, you get through that in one piece. Once you
survive that, then what do they do with you?”
Yep. Well, then, after you solo, pretty much it’s just a learning curve. Getting better and better
and better. You’re practicing engine failures. They actually let you go out by yourself and fly
around most of the time, and you fly with an instructor just very little. And just basically honing
your skills pretty much.
Interviewer: “Right, and then once you complete that training at Fort Wolters, what do
you do next?”
I went to Savannah to Hunter Army Airfield. We had a choice when I went through. You could
go to Fort Rucker, Alabama, or you’d go to Savannah, Georgia. Savannah was close to my
home, and so I went to Savannah. And in Savannah we started out flying Hueys instead of—Fort
Rucker—They went to OH-13s just like I was flying in basic, but we flew Hueys in Savannah
starting from the beginning.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you like flying a Huey better than—”
�Mackey, Michael
Oh, lord, yes. You didn’t have to worry about a throttle control. It was much smoother. Much
more powerful. And we were flying instrument training, which was very, very mentally
challenging. I mean, you’re flying under a hood. You can’t see outside. You’re just looking at
the instrument panels and trying to fly. So it made it a lot easier for that. (14:14)
Interviewer: “Okay. Did that turn out to be very helpful when you got to Vietnam?”
Yeah. Helpful and harmful. They teach you just enough. In flight school, they’d give us what
they called a tactical instrument ticket. Was just enough to keep you out of trouble but just
enough to get you in trouble, too. It wasn’t—They could’ve went a little further and helped us a
lot, but they didn’t.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So how long did you stay in Savannah?”
It was four months.
Interviewer: “Okay, so when do you complete that course?”
Seems to me like it was in November of ‘68.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then once you’ve done that, what do they do with you?”
Well, in my case, everybody in my flight school class went to Vietnam immediately. My dad
was in Vietnam when I finished flight school.
Interviewer: “What was he doing at that point?”
My dad was an admin sergeant major with thirty something years in the military, so he was in a
very safe place in Saigon. He was pushing paper and getting orders and stuff. And he had
volunteered to go to Vietnam to keep me from going when I got out of flight school.
Interviewer: “Okay, so because he’s in Vietnam—you have a family member there—you
can’t go?”
I can if I volunteer, but I didn’t.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so what did you do instead?”
They sent me to Germany. I got to Germany, and it took me about a month to feel like I was just
a fish out of water. I’m thinking about all my friends who are in Vietnam. I think I’d been in
Germany maybe three months, and my roommate from Vietnam, one of my best friends, got his
jaw blown off in a Cobra. (16:01) And I got to feeling so guilty. I actually volunteered to go to
Vietnam.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now where were you in Germany?”
�Mackey, Michael
Würzburg.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was your job there?”
We flew around a colonel—Air Defense Artillery colonel—to different Air Defense sites. It was
a great job as far as aviation jobs are concerned. We had three pilots and three aircraft.
Interviewer: “Yeah. And what’s daily life like in a place like that?”
For me, it was very boring. I mean, I was so young. Everybody else was kind of old. There were
only, like I said, three pilots, and two of them were married. And I’m single by myself, and it
was—That’s very boring for me.
Interviewer: “Okay, and to a certain extent, you’re kind of stuck on a base waiting for the
colonel to decide what you’re going to do?”
Yeah, pretty much, and it’s—I just wasn’t ready to be there, and I had—Like I said, I was so
concerned about my friends that I just felt so guilty.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay. So when do you get to Vietnam?”
I get to Vietnam in August of 1969.
Interviewer: “All right, and then what’s the process for getting you to Vietnam? Did you go
home first, and then…?”
Yeah, I went home on leave from Germany, and then I went from—From leave I went to Fort
Rucker to go through CH-47 transition, which I think was six weeks or somewhere around—
month to six weeks—and then to Vietnam.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay. CH-47. Now is that the Chinook?”
Yes, Chinook.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now explain how that’s different from a Huey.”
Well, it’s a multi-engine, heavy lift helicopter. Multi-engine. Huey’s got one engine. If it gets
shot out, you’re going down. Chinook’s got two. If it gets one engine shot out, you’re not going
down. You can fly it home. It’s basically a safer aircraft.
Interviewer: “Okay, and harder to fly?”
Not really. Probably easier to fly.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now how did you wind up doing that?” (18:06)
�Mackey, Michael
I felt like when I volunteered to go to Vietnam, it’d be the safest course. And the warrant
officer—We had a W-3 in Germany, and he advised me a little bit. And he said, “You should
probably try to get a Chinook transition because—”
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so you’ve applied for that. You do that training.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then in August of ‘69, now you make it to Vietnam. So from the
States how do they get you to Vietnam?”
Freedom Bird or just a commercial airliner they’d chartered.
Interviewer: “And where did you fly out of?”
I flew out of Oakland.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and where did you land in Vietnam?”
Saigon.
Interviewer: “Okay, so Tan Son Nhut?
Tan Son Nhut. Yeah, Tan Son Nhut.
Interviewer: “Okay. Okay, and what did they do with you once you land?”
Well, we landed in the evening, of course. At night. I think that’s probably when they all did. But
they put you in a bus, and they take you to the 93 Placement detachment or depot. Whatever it
was. And the thing I remember about getting on the bus is the screen. They had chicken wire all
along the windows, and I couldn’t figure out what that was for. Well, they told us before we left
on the bus that it was to keep hand grenades from getting thrown into the bus. That made sense.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, and a lot of guys have had that—And that’s one of the most
common things to pop up in these stories. But yeah, okay. What was your first impression
of Vietnam when you got there?”
Stink. The smell and the heat just overwhelmed you.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so now you go the replacement depot, and how long do you
spend there?”
We were there for—If you go into the 101st, which I was, you were there for—I think it’s four
days. They send you to a little, short course to teach you some things about Vietnam. Things you
can expect before they send you to your unit.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Okay, so what kinds of things were on the program?”
Well, they showed you how sappers could get through the wire and get into your perimeter, and
they showed you booby traps. And, you know, stuff, as a pilot, I’m probably not going to see.
(20:07) But I guess if I got shot down, maybe I might see it. But still. It’s just stuff that was
probably good for the people around me on the ground, but it wasn’t that helpful for us.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, and otherwise get you used to the climate a little bit and just—”
Yeah. Funny, funny story—and I don’t know if anybody else has told you—is they give you this
sleeping shirt when you get there, and it’s like—It might be a hundred and teens outside, and
you’re just sweating your butt off. And they give you this long sleeve shirt to sleep in. And I’m
sitting there, thinking, “Are you guys insane? I mean, I’m not going to wear this damn thing.” I
gave mine away when I got to my unit. And then the monsoons came, and then I wished I had it
back.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so once you complete that, now what happens?”
Now they put us on a C-130, and they fly us from Tan Son Nhut up to Phu Bai where the 101st
headquarters is at. And they had a—I think it was a Jeep waiting for us. I think there were—me
and one other guy—two pilots that were going to the same company, and they picked us up.
Interviewer: Okay. All right, and which company is that?”
Charlie Company. Playtex.
Interviewer: “Of what unit?”
159th Assault Support Helicopter Battalion.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, and what kind of reception do you get when you join the
unit?”
Hardly any. Seriously. Just come in, and they tell you where you’re going to sleep tonight. And
that’s about it.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then when you’re first there, what kind duties or training do you
get?”
They throw you right into the mix. Best I can remember. You start out on the flight schedule.
They’ll put you with an experienced aircraft commander, and you start flying. Start flying
missions the first day or two you’re there. (22:02)
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kinds of missions were they flying when you started?”
We were flying resupply missions—mostly to artillery bases—resupplying ammo, food,
anything. Hauling bulldozers. Heavy lift stuff.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Okay. Were you going to the A Shau Valley at that point?”
We were going out to the edge, not into it. But we were right at the—still at the edge of it.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right. Now when you’re first flying as a co-pilot, what kinds
of jobs do you have, or what are you doing while the other guy’s actually flying the
aircraft?
Well, basically, the aircraft commander’s in control of the missions, and the way most of them
worked is he’d fly a load, I’d fly a load, he’d fly a load, I’d fly a load. And as you got further
along and the more experienced, they’d actually let you start running the missions to see if you
could do it. Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right, and then at a certain point—I mean, how long does it take for you
to become an aircraft commander?”
About three months usually. Somewhere in that area.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now in the—kind of the west—In the first few months of
flying there, was it particularly dangerous, or was it quiet?”
It was pretty dangerous. We were up on the demilitarized zone and flying into some very bad
terrain, very bad area where a lot of North Vietnamese regulars were. There wasn’t Viet Cong. It
was regular army people.
Interviewer: “All right, and how quickly did you start getting shot at?”
Oh, I remember the first time I got hit. I hadn’t been there but maybe three weeks or a month,
and we got hit with a .51 caliber machine gun on the DMZ. And it hit us in the fuel cell, and we
started spraying fuel everywhere.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what does the pilot do when that happens?” (24:05)
We landed at a Special Forces base, which was right up on the DMZ, and we shut down there
and checked everything out. I think they plugged the hole with bubblegum or something just to
keep it from spewing out and going through the exhaust of the engine and catching fire.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you still a co-pilot at that point?”
Yes, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Okay, so you’re going up along the DMZ as well as kind of
up to the hills.”
�Mackey, Michael
And around Khe Sanh, too. We were working out in that area at that point. I was up—We were
pretty close to Khe Sanh when we got hit.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then how does weather affect what you do?”
Oh, really horribly. Monsoons in I Corps were really, really bad, and the weather—We’d get
down to maybe a 100, 150 foot ceiling, which means you can go up about 150 feet before you
put your blades in the clouds. And we were actually running missions and that where we would
basically hover around, carrying loads to places. When you couldn’t get any altitude or air speed,
you’re just hovering around.
Interviewer: “And would you be—sometimes just be in the middle of a cloud, hovering
above something, and…?”
Well, when Ripcord happened, we actually did that kind of thing. We—They were so—They put
them in, and then they got socked in almost immediately. Had no—They were running out of
everything and begging for us to bring stuff to them any way we could, and we started shooting
approaches to the—about the middle of the mountain. The clouds had come down to about the
middle of the mountain. We’re shooting approach down to where we could still see, and then try
to hover up to the clouds. Just trying to see a little bit of ground as you could. Hover up to the
clouds to get stuff to them.
Interviewer: “Could people on the ground guide you at all or help?”
Sometimes they can guide you by sound if they hear you coming, and they tell you, “Come a
little bit to the right. A little bit to the left.” But basically, no, they can’t really help other than
that. (26:09)
Interviewer: “And there wasn’t any kind of signal system, or…?”
No, not for that. This was just improvisation. We—I forget who did it first. One of our—I think
it was John Wagner. He was a—my roommate, and I think he was the first one to try it and did it.
And he told us, and then, of course, we all try it.
Interviewer: “All right, and, I guess—Now the way, I guess, the sequence works, I guess, is
that when you first arrive, it’s still the dry season, so you can still operate.”
When I first got there, yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and then the monsoon comes in late in the year and extends into
the…”
It extends into March or somewhere around there.
Interviewer: “March. Yeah. Yeah, and the first attempt to actually establish the Ripcord
base was in March.”
�Mackey, Michael
Right.
Interviewer: “And that actually was aborted. Now were you part of that effort, or were
you…?”
No, not the initial effort, but initially I think they were trying to put infantry in, and they couldn’t
get them in. We’re usually second. Once the infantry gets in and secures the base, then we bring
the artillery in.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Okay, and so they hadn’t gotten that far in
the sequence.”
Not initially, no.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Now April 1st they try again, and this time they’re landing on the
hilltop that becomes Ripcord. And they get some infantry in.
Right.
Interviewer: “Now were you on standby for that as well?”
Yeah, then we got—Well, then we started bringing in the artillery pieces.
Interviewer: “Yeah, well, the—April 1st, when they went—They left the hill. They
couldn’t—They were under enough fire that they called that off. So the middle of April, I
guess—about the twelfth or something like that—”
I guess. It’s hard to—I don’t remember a whole—when they first put them in
Interviewer: “Yeah, but what you remember is when they’re actually building the base.”
Right. Yeah.
Interviewer: “So now you’re bringing stuff in.”
Yeah, we’re bringing stuff in. Bulldozers. We’re bringing in artillery pieces and resupplies. All
kind of heavy stuff they need.
Interviewer: “All right. Were there some loads that were harder to manage than others?”
Yeah. Conex containers. Big, square, steel boxes. They tended to want to flop around in the
wind, and you don’t want them flying too far back up behind you because they can go through
your blades. (28:09) They were hard to carry. You had to go pretty slow with them. Not relative
to Ripcord, but downed aircraft—Cobras—were very hard to haul. They wanted to fly.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “So the—I mean, the rotors would go, or…?”
The way it was—The way they were streamlined, for some reason, they’d just get lift. And
they’d want to fly.
Interviewer: “So they’d kind of being going up—”
Yeah, they’d be rising up. And I was hauling one one time, and I—We have a cargo mirror, and I
looked up in it. And I’d seen the tail boom of the Cobra up here, so we had to slow down a lot.
But they were very difficult to haul.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what are some of the most challenging missions in terms of things
to pick up or drop off?”
Bulldozers. You had to get really, really low on fuel to pick them up and carry them because
they’re so heavy. We carried other downed Chinooks with a Chinook, and you’d have to get
really low on fuel. We had some radio relay stations around Khe Sanh that were very, very bad
places to go, so we’d haul a double load. Instead of eight thousand, we’d carry sixteen thousand
pounds.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now why were the relay stations bad places?”
They were just out in the boonies. We had no support out there. Just a small team on top of a
mountain that would relay radio signals.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, so there wasn’t a whole lot of room to land or anything?”
There wasn’t a whole lot of room to land, and there’s a lot of really bad guys there. And we
didn’t like to go but once if we had to. Just drop one load off instead of going back a second
time.
Interviewer: “Yeah, but there were things that they needed a Chinook for instead of
Hueys?”
Well, yeah, because we could get so much more in. So much quickly. (30:01) I mean, I don’t
know how much a Huey can sling load, but, you know, we could carry sixteen thousand pounds.
That’s a lot.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when the weather was okay, how much flying would you do in a
day?”
I’d say, on average, ten hours a day when the weather was good. I had one day I flew twentyseven straight hours.
Interviewer: “All right. How long typically does a mission take?”
�Mackey, Michael
We broke—Our missions were funny. We had sorties. We’d get a sheet every morning that told
us how many sorties we’d got. We’ve got to pick this thing up here. Take it here. That’s a
mission. Pick this up here. Take it here. That’s a mission. Probably a hundred if you counted
them that way. A hundred missions a day.
Interviewer: “Okay, because there’s the different stops that you’re making.”
Different—Yeah, just—Everything’s a mission.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, so you’re within a relatively defined geographical area.”
Absolutely. We’d know—After you’d been there three months, you know every hilltop, every
grid square, everything. I mean, it’s just in your head. You don’t have a—We didn’t even have a
map.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now to what extent did the latter part of Ripcord kind of stand out in
your experience?”
Terror. Just pure—Scared every time we had to go in there.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Did it get bad in terms of starting to take fire before the siege started,
or is it really at the beginning of July when things get ugly?”
Well, even really before that we took fire just about every time we went to Ripcord. We’d alter
our routes in and out and airspeed and altitudes and the way we came in, just trying to confuse
people. We got to the point we were doing what we call a high overhead approach. You’d fly
over Ripcord at fifteen hundred feet over it, and you’d start a standard rate turn, either right or
left. It didn’t matter. And start a descent of fifteen hundred feet a minute, and you’d do a 360
right over the top of the firebase. And when you finish the 360, you’re just about where you
wanted to be. And just get the load and went. (32:05)
Interviewer: “All right, and would you actually land on the firebase, or would you just
unhook the load and…?”
No. The load would hit the ground, we’d punch it off, and back up in the air.
Interviewer: “All right. Now what were the biggest dangers there?”
Rockets and mortars because they would hit the pad quite frequently. Actually, sometimes quad
50 machine guns. Quad-51s.
Interviewer: “They had those?”
Oh, yeah.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Because I knew they had the .51 caliber anti-aircraft guns, but I didn’t
realize they had the quads.”
They had the quad 50s. Quad-51s. I’m sorry.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, because the Americans had quad 50s.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “But—Yeah, and then did they have heavier anti-aircraft guns, too?”
They did, but I’m not sure they were around Ripcord. They had 37 mm’s and 40 mm’s, but I
don’t remember them being around Ripcord with them. They could have been. I just don’t
remember.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, I think it was also like a 14.7 mm machine gun, so they had the
equivalent of a .50-cal.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so I guess that’s the—”
A 51.
Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s 51. Okay, so you’ve got those. All right. Yeah, and were there
altitudes or levels where you could fly that was—Would you just get high enough they
couldn’t hit you, or...?
No. No, you could stay out of small arms fire. Fifteen hundred feet’s what they figured, but—So
a 51 can reach out and get you. A 37, a 40. So yeah, I mean, you weren’t ever really out of the
range of stuff.
Interviewer: “All right. Now as they got toward the end, I mean, you had a Chinook from
another unit actually crash on the base on the eighteenth of July. How did you hear about
that, or what did you learn about it?”
I was right in front of him.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what did you do that day, or…?”
We had shot an approach on Ripcord, and the pathfinder had told us—We always called a
pathfinder. Get a situation report. Is the LZ hot, or—Of course, they say no whether it is or not
because they want the stuff. So I went in, and I dropped my load off. And I took some 51 fire
going in. And I came out the other side, and I heard the Pachyderm bird calling that he was
coming into Ripcord. The pathfinder told him the same thing—that it was not hot—and I went
up on my VHF—on their VHF frequency, and I told them, “I just left there, and I did take some
�Mackey, Michael
fire going in.” And he went on anyway. Well, we all would’ve done it anyway. It’s no big deal.
(34:11) But he got shot down. So that’s how I knew about that one.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, and then that—basically that crashed on top of the [?]
bunker, and the whole 105 mm battery kind of went up.”
That’s the day I flew twenty-seven straight hours.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what were the—What were your other missions now? Once that
happened, what were you doing?”
Resupplying all the firebases around Ripcord to support them because they had no way to fire
anymore, and they were just kind of a sitting duck. So all—I remember Gladiator and
Henderson, I think, were two of the ones that we resupplied all night long.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. All right, and then, of course, a few days later they give up, and
they decide to evacuate the firebase. So what do you recall about that?”
Yeah. I’m getting short then. I don’t have much time left in country, and I’m really not supposed
to be flying anymore because about the last thirty days we just would fly bus runs and easy
missions that weren’t dangerous so that we could get home. And they were short of aircraft
commanders, and I remember them telling me I was going to have to fly again. And I remember
the briefing that evening and them telling us what we’re going to do. And it was—It was pretty
scary.
Interviewer: “So what happens to you?”
We went in—I forget what number ship I was—and to pick up a 155 Howitzer and evacuate it. I
was either three or five. Somewhere in the middle. There were like—I don’t want to say
seventeen, eighteen. I don’t remember how many ships there were, but I was in the middle sort
of. I went in there, and I remember—Just as I settled over the load, I remember three explosions
right in front of me, and then the gun or the crew chief said they were three right behind us,
which they’ve got you bracketed. And just as I picked the load up and pulled off, they said three
came right down where we were. (36:06) And I smoked back then, and I think I smoked a pack
of cigarettes in fifteen minutes. And that was my last official flight in Vietnam other than I might
have flown a bus run to a hangar or something after that but nothing dangerous after that.
Interviewer: “All right. Now when you got to Vietnam, was your father still there?”
No, because it had worked out with a transition and everything. I was going over as he was
coming back. And then as I was coming back, my brother was going over.
Interviewer: “All right. Now you’re coming back at this point. How much time do you have
left on your enlistment?”
I have—I took a direct commission, so I have probably two years.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Okay, so at what point did you get the direct commission?”
I got it in Vietnam about mid-tour.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so now you’re a commissioned officer. So you moved up to
the next level.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then when you come back, where do they send you
next?”
Fort Rucker, Alabama.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what do you—Now you had mentioned getting armor training at
some point.”
Oh, yeah, I went through the armor basic course en route to Fort Rucker.
Interviewer: “Okay, so why were they having you do that?”
I was an armor—They gave me a commission in armor, which is tanks. So my thinking—I didn’t
have to go to that. I requested it because I figured if I was going to stay in, I needed to have that
because Vietnam was ending. They’re going to have a big reduction in force. I knew that. And I
figured that if I wasn’t at least basic course qualified in armor, I would get rifted, which is, a
reduction, of course, and removed from the service. So I did that and went to that first.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what did you actually do during those two months?” (38:06)
You learned to be a tanker, which was interesting, and it was very cold. This was—I don’t know
what—Maybe it was September, October.
Interviewer: “Was that at Fort Knox?”
Yeah, Fort Knox, Kentucky, and it was—With the wind chill—And we played night defensive
position and in tanks. Tanks didn’t have heaters, and it was like minus twelve degrees with the
wind chill. And I’d just got back from Vietnam and 120 degrees or whatever it was. I about froze
to death. But the tanks were fun. The tanks were a lot of fun. I was amazed with their accuracy.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of tanks were you in?”
A M60.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, those ones were kind of too big for Vietnam.”
�Mackey, Michael
Yeah. Well, yeah, they were too big for Vietnam, and they were kind of too outdated for
nowadays. But they were still fun.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, but did you do that just because you had to have a
specialization as an army officer, or…?”
Yes, it was pretty much that because the reason that they gave warrant officers direct
commissions was because the people with the branches in the department of the army knew there
was a reduction of force coming. And they wanted to keep their branch qualified people. So if
they gave warrant officers a bunch of direct commissions, when the quota came down, they’d rift
them.
Interviewer: “All right, but while you train in armor, they don’t assign you to armor. They
send you to Fort Rucker. You’re back with aviation. Okay, and what’s your first job at
Fort Rucker?”
First job at Fort Rucker is the S1 of the Student Aviation Battalion. Student Aviation Battalion is
the battalion that trains all the student aviators. Warrant officers, candidates, and officers are all
under Sixth Battalion.
Interviewer: “Okay, and were you doing actual training or just administrative work?”
(40:01)
Administrative work. I was an admin. Pencil pusher.
Interviewer: “All right, and did you like that job, or did you want to get out of it?”
I liked it pretty good. Yeah, except we had to go to every graduation party, and it just got to be—
Every week I was going to two or three parties.
Interviewer: “Did you still get to fly at all?”
Yeah. You still have to fly. You have to maintain—I think it was eighty hours a year to maintain
your qualifications.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how long did you do that?”
I was probably doing that for a year. Little over a year.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you get a new assignment after that?”
Yeah, Army Community Services. I was the Army Emergency Relief officer.
Interviewer: “What do they do?”
�Mackey, Michael
It’s like a loan or a grant company for GIs who are in financial trouble, and I make the
determination whether they get the money or not. And back in that time frame it was pretty
important because nobody got paid anything. It was just a struggle for enlisted people to—just to
survive. And so—And we were kind of a direct liaison between Fort Rucker and the
communities around there, which was also pretty important at that time.
Interviewer: “Okay. Okay, so what groups or institutions in the community did you deal
with?”
I just dealt primarily with the military part of it. We had other sections that dealt with the
community. But I actually didn’t have to wear a uniform. I wore a coat and tie to this job. And
occasionally I had to do a briefing for incoming wives or something to tell them what was
available on a post. Things like that. And we worked directly for the post commander. Two star
general.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay. All right. Now did you live on the base or off the base?”
Off.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have a family at this point, or were you still single?”
Yeah, I had a wife and a little daughter. (42:01)
Interviewer: “All right. Now somewhere along the line you had reenlisted? Or did that
come along with becoming the officer? You just had to extend, or…?”
No. No, what happens with the army back then was when you first take commission, you have a
certain obligation that you promise to fulfill. But you can make an agreement with the army. It’s
called a voluntary indefinite, which—I volunteer to stay as long as I want to, and you volunteer
to keep me as long as you want to. So I can stay basically until they decide they don’t want me
anymore or I don’t want to be there. So that’s what I was. Voluntary indefinite.
Interviewer: “All right, and so how was it that you wound up leaving the army?”
I got tired of it. They—I forget what year they changed to the—They call it the volunteer army.
Interviewer: “About ‘73, ‘74.”
Yeah, somewhere in the mid ‘70s. Somewhere around there. And they just started getting some
really, really bad people. They were taking anybody. And then I also came down on orders to
Germany. Took me out of aviation and put me in a tank company in Germany, which is—even
for experienced armor officers—is a killing ground. I mean, they just chew you up, spit you out,
and—
Interviewer: “Why was that bad?”
�Mackey, Michael
Well, they put you in the field, and so many of those guys that were—They got relieved out there
of their commands in armor. And plus, I didn’t want to be in—I wanted to fly. I didn’t want to
ride around the tank in the cold. So I had to make a decision. I’d been in close to nine years, and
I felt in my head if I stayed ten, I had to stay the other ten, which is maybe stupid. But I still
thought that, so I just quit.
Interviewer: “Okay, so the—You know, there’s a, you know, fair amount out there about
sort of the decline in morale in parts of the military and stuff after Vietnam or at the end
and sometimes problems with the all-volunteer army. You know, but sometimes, I mean,
aviation units might at least still get better people than other places. But was it still a—But
you were even seeing that in your area?”
Yeah, even in aviation it was starting to get that way. (44:22) My last year in the army I was in a
medevac company. Medevac detachment. And we had a Medical Service Corps major that liked
to go out in the desert in El Paso and play army. And we had an active mission. We had MAST,
which was Military Assistance to Field Unit Traffic—I think what’s they called it—where we
supported the civilian community as well as military. So we would have a first up where you
slept on the airfield, and if a mission came up, you had to go out on it. And we had a second up
that would go in and fill in for the first up if he went up. So you’d have first up, second up, and
then a day off basically. And this major liked to take us all out in the field for a week. And we’d
go out and set a tent up, and about two o'clock in the morning, he’d wake us up and tell us to
pack up. And we’re going to move and set up camp somewhere else. And we did that, and I
just…
Interviewer: “It got a little—Okay. Couple of other kind of general Vietnam questions.
There’s a lot of stereotypes about what went on in Vietnam and so forth we kind of take for
granted, and one of them has to do with drug use. Did you see any evidence of that while
you were over there?”
Very little. Aviation units—We didn’t—There was some marijuana smoking. I’m sure of that,
but other than that, no, we didn’t really—We didn’t really see it.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and another one has to do with race relations.”
Saw that, saw that.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how did that play out with what you saw?” (46:02)
Well, we had a lot of—In 101st, we had a lot of fraggings. They had little, outdoor movie
theaters back at the base camps where you’d—Guys could set up—watch a movie. There were
people rolling hand grenades down there fragging people. I actually had—Officer of the guard—
One night—It was either New Year’s Eve or Fourth of July or something, and the lieutenant that
ran the perimeter told me—said, “Now at midnight I don’t want anybody shooting off star
clusters or anything, and if they do, I want you to go take care of it.” Well, about midnight this
Duster—40 mm track vehicle—started shooting off star clusters. So I went over there like I was
told. And I was beating on the back of this thing, and he finally lowered the ramp. But smoke—
�Mackey, Michael
marijuana smoke—came out like crazy. And these two black guys came out and locked and
loaded their M16s, and I said—I don’t remember—something to the effect of, “This is
Lieutenant Mackey, and you need to not be firing them star clusters. And they said, “Lieutenant,
you better find your ass away from here.” And that’s what I did. Too many officers died of
friendly fire. I didn’t want to be one of them.
Interviewer: “All right, but, I guess, for the most part, your—the aviation unit itself didn’t
have that sort of issue.”
No, no. No, we didn’t—We didn’t have—I don’t remember that we had too many black people,
but any of them that we had were—There was no problem. We never had any kind of a—
incidents.
Interviewer: “Yeah. There were other guys who were sent to the rear from other places.”
Yeah, the—Usually, the people on the perimeter were the dregs that other companies didn’t
want. They’d just send them out there, so you’re dealing with bad people, both black and white.
But it didn’t matter. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. Now once you leave the army, now what do you do?” (48:04)
Let’s see. I opened an Indian jewelry company with my roommate who was a West Point
graduate. We did that for a while and part-time I was working security for Concerts West. I ran
security for them in El Paso for rock concerts. And then I got in the car business, and that’s
where I stayed for many more years.
Interviewer: “Yeah. How did you wind up in El Paso?”
Fort Bliss, Texas is where I got out, and that’s El Paso, so…
Interviewer: “Oh, okay, so after Fort Rucker, you’re in Fort Bliss.”
Yeah, I went to—Well, I went to Korea. I didn’t—We didn’t get to that part yet.
Interviewer: “Korea! Yes, tell me about Korea. You hadn’t mentioned Korea before.”
Well, I went from Fort Rucker to Korea. And I liked Korea.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay. What was you job there?”
I was the operations officer for a Chinook company.
Interviewer: “Okay, and where were they based?”
In Camp Humphreys.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Okay, which is near anything in Korea? Was it near the DMZ, or…?”
Anjeong-ri. Or Osan’s close by. Pyongtaek.
Interviewer: “Okay. How far were you from the DMZ?”
Probably seventy miles, eighty miles.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re someplace south of that.”
Yeah, yeah, I’m not on DMZ.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, all right. Yeah, and so how are you spending your time
there?”
Badly.
Interviewer: “Okay, so there wasn’t a whole lot of stress there at that point, or…?”
No, there was no stress. I was just behaving badly.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay. How long were you there?”
A year.
Interviewer: “Okay, so when was that?”
‘73 to seventy—No, ‘72 to ‘73. I’m sorry.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so you tried on some different places at different points. In
Germany and Korea and so forth and in Texas. Okay, so the last assignment was in El
Paso. Yeah, and so that’s when you were doing all of that with the medevac—”
Yeah, in El Paso. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, so the car business. All right, so as car dealer, seller,
repairer…?” (50:12)
Seller for several years. I did several different things in the car business. I was a used car
manager, finance manager. I owned my own little car lot for a while. I was a wholesale manager
for a large multi-dealership. Multi-franchise dealership.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how do you wind up in South Carolina?”
I left El Paso. I partied a lot in El Paso. And I don’t if that was from Vietnam or not, but I was
having fun, I thought. There’s a bar I used to go in all the time that Bandidos bikers used to hang
�Mackey, Michael
out in, and I knew most of them. We were fine. But one of them I didn’t like, and he didn’t like
me. And one night we—He had a lot too much to drink, and I had maybe too much to drink. And
he came around threatening people at the bar, and I decided when he got to me, I was going to hit
him with a long neck Bud. And I did. Well, the next day one of my other friends in the Bandidos
told me I better get out of town because he planned to kill me. So I left. I mean—And it just so
happened I had a friend who had a friend who was the ferrying aircraft for a living, and he was
ferrying one to Myrtle Beach from El Paso. And I told him, “Well, I’ll fly co-pilot for you and
help you fly and navigate.” And he said, “Fine. Come on.” And he dropped me off in Columbia,
and that’s how I got back there.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay. All right, so what year was that?”
That was 1980.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and so what kind of career then did you have after that, or
did you stay with cars, or…?”
Yes, sadly.
Interviewer: “All right, so how do you think they—You suggested a little bit. Do you
think—I mean, have you been diagnosed with PTSD or anything like that?”
Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: “And when did you kind of…”
Find that out?
Interviewer: “Find that out. Yeah.” (52:01)
I actually—I’d never—I didn’t know the VA could do anything for us because they never told us
anything. That we could look for help. Well, one day I had a—I forget what—Back of my hand I
had something just start popping open. It scared me. I thought it was skin cancer, and it turned
out to be that. But it was not a bad one. And I had no insurance. I didn’t know what the hell I was
going to do, so I figured I might as well go to the VA and see if they can help me. And I go out
there, and I get a very nice, old doctor. And he told me all the things that they could do for me.
He looked at that, and he set me up with the cancer people and set me up with a psychiatric
evaluation or something where I went and I actually talked to a lieutenant colonel in the army
who had been—Prior service in—Oh, he was a lieutenant colonel in the army with prior service
in the Marine Corps as a machine gunner in Vietnam. So I was talking to him. Just—We were
having a discussion, and he was asking me questions. Kind of like you asking me questions. And
he said, “You know, you have PTSD.” And I said, “No, I don’t.” And he said, “Yeah, you do.” I
said, “No, I don’t.” So they set me up with a shrink, and I went to this shrink for—VA shrink for
probably ten years. And she finally just wrote a letter and said, “Yeah, you’re screwed up.” But I
don’t know. I guess they based a lot of—I changed. I must have worked for thirty different
people after I got out of the military. I just was everywhere. Somebody pissed me off, I quit. I
�Mackey, Michael
didn’t care if I was making a hundred grand a year, I’m not going to—If I think I’m right, I’m
going to leave.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. Now did any of the therapy or anything like that eventually,
you know, help you get control of stuff or cope with things better, or…?”
Maybe a little. I think talking to her helped a little bit, but—And just, I guess, maybe
acknowledging the fact that maybe I did because I really didn’t believe I did. I mean, I just—
Interviewer: “Well, there’s different kinds. I mean, there’s the reflex stuff where you
respond to noises or you don’t want to—You always want to have your back to a wall and
know where the door is. There’s those kinds of things. And then there’s just other things
that are more a question of the moral injury or just the feelings about what you saw and
went through and things like that. They work in a lot of different ways.” (54:17)
Yeah. Yeah, I used to have bad nightmares. I mean—And it wasn’t—I feel guilty about having
them because the guys that are actually here—They were on the ground here, and I just—I’m in
awe of them. I mean, I’m just in total awe. I couldn’t have done what they did. No kind of way.
Interviewer: “Hard to tell until you’re in it as far as I can tell.”
Well, maybe that’s true, but man, they—I almost sometimes feel guilty about being here.
Interviewer: “Well, I don’t think they’d agree with you.”
That’s what they keep telling me.
Interviewer: “You had a job to do, and so did they. And yours at times was really
dangerous and really scary. You just got to sleep in better conditions than they did.”
Right, and I can run away faster.
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
But yeah, I—I just—And coming to these has been very helpful. I go to Vietnam Helicopter
Pilots Association reunions. It’s not the same as talking to these guys. I’d rather talk to these
guys because I know what the helicopter pilots went through because I was there. But to talk to
the guys who were down there, who were supporting, it’s much more interesting.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right, well, this actually—I think actually this is a good place
probably to kind of close out, and I just want to say thank you for taking the time to talk to
me today.”
Great. I enjoyed it. (55:31)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
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RHC-27_MackeyM2283V
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Mackey, Michael (Interview transcript and video), 2018
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2018-11-03
Description
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Michael Mackey was born in Crawfordsville, Indiana in 1948. Mackey graduated high school in 1966 and began working for a sign company when he recieved his draft notice. Taking his father's advice, he visited an Army recruiter and agreed to a delayed entry into the Army's flight school. He attended Basic Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana, before reporting to Fort Wolters, Texas, for primary flight school and training as a Warrant Officer as well as Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah, Georgia, where he learned to fly Huey helicopters. Mackey was then deployed to Würzburg, Germany, before volunteering to be sent to Vietnam in 1969 where he was attached to Charlie Company, 159th Assault Support Helicopter Battalion, 101st Airborne. His unit participated in the siege on Firebase Ripcord before ending his tour in Vietnam and attending a Basic Armor course in Fort Knox, Kentucky. Afterwards, he became an S1 of the Student Aviation Battalion and then acquired a job as an Army Emergency Relief officer for Army Community Services. Mackey also saw service in Korea as an Operations Officer, Germany as a member of a tank company, and at Fort Bliss in El Paso, Texas, as part of a medevac company. After nine years in the service, Mackey was finally discharged from the Army.
Creator
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Mackey, Michael A.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/86f4d580e4e830c5b8822253f8faa4a2.mp4
5784e6915f881da3b343c938b8534862
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5a9ba0bc02c99fd8f7300cd838e14a83.pdf
f53e68999406fdc6a6a72086035d7ba8
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Robert Layton
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: We are talking today with Bob Layton of University Heights, Ohio. The
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay Bob, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where
and when were you born?
Veteran: I was born in Madison, Indiana on August 24th, 1946.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you grow up there or did you move around?
Veteran: Lived there until, I think, 12 years old. My father worked for a military—government
facility there at Jefferson Proving Ground. He was laid off in 1957. We had to move to Ohio. He
worked in Dayton, Ohio. I grew up in a small town west of Dayton, Ohio. Eaton, Ohio, a town of
5000 people.
Interviewer: Okay. And, did you finish high school there?
Veteran: Graduated high school in 1964, yes.
Interviewer: Okay. And what did you do after you finished high school?
Veteran: Well, my freshman year in fact, I went—freshman year of college, I spent at the
University of Arizona, where I thought I was going to be an architect but they quickly disabused
�me of that notion. And I didn’t see the sense in staying in Arizona, paying out of state tuition, so
I transferred to Ohio University.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and then was that a school that had a required ROTC program
in it?
Veteran: It did not. It did not. Interestingly, I think, the reason I ended up in ROTC was the
University of Arizona, which did require ROTC and so, in the fall of…what? Fall of ’66, I heard
at Ohio University—I was reading about this thing called Vietnam and I just had the sense that
another 2 or 3 years, it might still be happening and if I was going to go in the service, I might as
well go as an officer rather than wait to be drafted. So, had I gone to Ohio University as a
freshman, I am guessing I would not have gone into ROTC. But the fact that I went to Arizona,
they changed my life in that regard. (00:02:05)
Interviewer: Okay. And now, what did ROTC training actually consist of in those days?
Veteran: Oh crap—what do I remember…It was a lot of classroom work. Military histories and
that kind of stuff. There was drill once a week. There was a 6 or 8-week sort of basic training
between junior and senior years. And that was, you know, as much as I remember.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, what did they do for the basic training? Did you actually go to the
basic training base or did they just—
Veteran: Yeah, I went to a place called Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania, which I think was an old
World War 2 camp, really. And I, it was—I don’t remember… later in life I commanded a basic
training company for a while and in comparing the two, it was kind of basic training. But again,
there was an emphasis there on leadership skills, so each day, a new cadet was the acting platoon
leader or he was acting squad leader, something like that. So, we are moved in and out of
�leadership positions and graded on those days when we were in leadership positions. And it was
marksmanship…I guess the major thing I remember is the marksmanship training, the 82nd
Airborne were the cadre for that. A lot of them had either served in Vietnam already or had been
in the Caribbean, or the 82nd Airborne excursion down into…
Interviewer: Dominican Republic.
Veteran: Dominican Republic, yeah. So, you saw these crack troopers with their airborne wings
and CIB above it. Good-looking troops.
Interviewer: Okay. Was there much of an anti-war movement going on at Ohio U in those
days?
Veteran: Well, of course there was, yeah. Of course there was. Ohio U is a pretty liberal school. I
don’t think it was beyond the average. I mean, but there was a, you know, strong anti-war
movement and teach-ins and that sort of thing. And I remember Dean Rusk coming to speak on
campus and a huge walk-out was staged. That sort of thing. (00:04:26)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, how—did any of that kind of touch on you as an ROTC cadet? I
mean, did people treat you differently? Or…were you…did you just feel a little bit outside
of things?
Veteran: I don’t think—I mean, within my circle of friends, no.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And my circle of friends includes some anti-war people. A friend of mine became a
conscientious objector. But I—but that’s what a university is supposed to be: you have divergent
views and divergent interests and people and you mix together and try to—try to coexist with
�that. You know, if I get political, it’s what we have today: one seems to be on one side of the
fence or the other, nothing in the middle.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Yeah, I didn’t have—I didn’t have any trouble in that regard, being in the ROTC.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, when did you graduate from college?
Veteran: March, 1969.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you were in school and then in 1968—would summer of ’68 be when
you had your summer training then?
Veteran: Actually, I had mine in ’67.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, but you’re in school in ’68 so what did you—what went on on
your campus in ’68? Because you had various assassinations and all that kind of thing.
Veteran: I think—the assassination of King and then the assassination of Kennedy had profound
impact on the campus at Ohio University. I don’t recall classes being cancelled or anything but I
know that there were, you know, there were just gatherings and activities and…I mean, and
rightly so. Rightly so. I mean, that was also—I remember watching Johnson’s…Johnson’s
address to the nation when he said I will not run again. I mean there was a lot of activity, a lot of
political activity going on at that time. It was impossible to ignore it. Absolutely. (00:06:36)
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so now you get into ’69 and now you graduate and so now it’s
time for you to report for duty.
Veteran: Right.
�Interviewer: So, what happens next? You graduate from school, now what?
Veteran: I graduated and I had—I received a commission and orders at the same time. And two
weeks later, I reported to Fort Benning, Georgia for the infantry officer’s basic course.
Interviewer: Okay. And what does that consist of?
Veteran: Well, first let me note, a little historical note, when I reported to Fort Benning on the
appointed day, the guards at the gate told me that the post was closed for the day. You can come
back tomorrow. I had assumed Vietnam had surrendered because they knew I was on the way,
right? But it turned out, interestingly enough, my first day in the Army it was the official day of
mourning for Dwight Eisenhower, who had died just a few days previously. So, in fact, literally
my first day in the Army, I was sent home. But the next day, you know, the war continued. So,
the infantry officer basic course, again a lot of leadership skills and a lot of tactics, a lot of map
and compass land navigation, familiarization with a lot of different weapons systems, probably
classes on such things as logistics, military law, stuff like that which is—I have long since
forgotten. But it was—and it, and really, it was—for me it was the transition you know again,
from a fairly liberal campus to suddenly now we are in the Army fulltime and there’s no doubt,
you know, what’s ahead of me and so it was…There was a mind change going on there also, you
know, getting—getting geared up for what was going to be going on. That was just what I was
going through personally. Getting geared up for the fact we are in the Army and we are headed
for Vietnam. (00:08:43)
Interviewer: Okay. Is this where really sort of heavy-duty discipline sets in as opposed to
ROTC? Or had you learned the way the Army did things already?
�Veteran: Not totally. Not totally. There was…But you know, it was not, it was training but it was
not training in the sense of—it was called infantry officer basic course but it was not basic in the
training sense. We were officers so you know, we were treated with a certain amount of respect,
they say the old OCS candidates didn’t have. We’d have classes in what was called Building 4,
affectionately known as Bedroom 4. And during the breaks, the officers would go out and get a
cup of coffee. And while we were getting our coffee, we’d see the OCS candidates braced
against the wall—that was their break. So, you know, as an officer we—you know, we had—we
didn’t have the discipline those guys went through.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: At all.
Interviewer: Alright. So, how long did you spend in the basic course?
Veteran: I think it was 9 weeks.
Interviewer: Okay. And what did they do with you once you are through with that?
Veteran: Well, when I was there, I volunteered for jump school and ranger training. So, I
graduated from the basic course and I think I had a couple weeks of down time and then went to
jump school which was 3 weeks.
Interviewer: Was that at Fort Benning or…? (00:10:12)
Veteran: At Fort Benning, yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. Alright, now parachuting was kind of going out of vogue at that
point. I mean, I guess you did—I guess rangers still did it. Unless—
�Veteran: I think the Army always wanted it. Yes, it still was out of—certainly we did not have
airborne units jumping in Vietnam. I think for the Army though, I don’t think it would ever go
out of vogue because it’s sort of a confidence building thing and it sort of shows that you know,
here’s a guy that’s a hard charger. And so, I think, I—my personal belief is that the Army will
probably always have a parachute unit because they want that kind of personnel.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Personality. And for me it was, it was—I loved it. It was fun. It really was.
Interviewer: Alright. So, how did they work you up to jumping out of an airplane?
Veteran: I think the…I think the—I think the cadre jump school were the best psychiatrists or
psychologists in the world because they spent two weeks—first of all, there was two weeks of
intense training but it was two weeks of very purposeful training. There was no harassment for
the sake of harassment, because in the third week, you’re going to be 1,200 feet above the
ground jumping out of an airplane. So, there was no screwing around with you just to do that.
Everything was for a purpose. And if you’re not paying attention, they are on you right away
because, you know, there’s no fooling around here. And they were great at just building your
confidence and building your desire. I mean, by the time I got in the airplane to jump, literally I
would have pushed my mother out of the way to get out the door. I wanted to jump and I think—
I don’t think I was alone in that. They fire you up to go. And they are very good at it. And I
enjoyed going. I enjoyed doing the—I did not find jump school to be that difficult physically.
And I did enjoy jumping.
Interviewer: Yep. Okay. So, that’s sort of like 3 weeks. And now ranger school comes after
that but that’s a little bit different. (00:12:30)
�Veteran: Ranger school is hell. Yeah, I had, again I had another couple of weeks off, whatever.
And then I went through ranger class 70-2 in the year of 1970 which I think we started in
September of ’69. Ranger training was the best thing I ever did. It wasn’t by any means fun but it
was the best thing I ever did because of the training that I received while in ranger school.
They—it is…It is fully geared for small unit combat leaders. And that’s all you do for 9 weeks.
And there is harassment there and that’s purposeful. There’s harassment in the sense that when
you are in the field training, you get one meal, one C ration a day. And your day goes anywhere
from 18 to 19-20 hours. That will continue for 2-3 weeks sometimes. And the idea is really, it is
just to—to put you under pressure, to see how you react under pressure. As they would say, they
can’t shoot at you so the best thing they can do to find out what you’re made of is just not feed
you or not let you sleep, see how you deal with tension, and how you deal with stress. Can you
function? And it was constantly patrolling, constantly out in the field, map and compass. And so,
you learn to navigate over land which is something that came in very handy in Vietnam. And you
learn…You learn that you have a lot more in you than you would have ever thought. You know,
at the point you think you want to quit, no you got another three days in you easily. You don’t
know that, but they’ll get it out of you. And it was—it was absolutely the best training in the
world. And the—frankly, I knew officers who did not go to ranger school and I never understood
why they didn’t, because I would have—I would have felt…I did not think that the infantry
officer basic course, while on paper I graduated from that, qualified me to lead a platoon in
Vietnam. I didn’t think so. Okay? I felt that I needed everything I could get and I wanted that
ranger training. (00:15:03)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, what kind of terrain were you in for ranger training?
�Veteran: Depended—well, there are three phases when I went through. Well, there was a phase
at Fort Benning, Georgia. Camp Darby, where we did a lot of the preliminary—we did a lot of
PT in Darby. There was a lot of—every morning was an obstacle course through—where we had
a low crawl through freshly watered-down Georgia clay, which was just as slick as oil. And after
that, when you got enough of the stuff on your hands, then you start doing those ladders. And
you can’t hang onto them, right, and then you fall into the water and then you keep going. And
we had a lot of—we had the I guess what we would call the orient training courses where you
start out with a map and a compass and you have to find the stake in the woods 3000 meters that
way and then there would be instructions that say go find this other thing. So, we had the nav—
the land navigation courses. And you did that with your ranger buddy at night, which was an
interesting…interesting course. And there were other classes at Camp Darby. We were pulled
together one time administratively because of some order that was issued, some very high-level
command that was supposed to go to all of the officers in the Army and so they even broke us
out. I think it was the only break we had from ranger training where we actually, you know, not
just hard charging ahead. And I remember…Well, I’ll tell you. My ranger school started—it
started maybe 3 or 4 days after Armstrong landed on the moon, because I remember watching
the moon landing in my motel room. And when we had this get together for this Army whatever
sort of thing it was for all the officers, we got an update on what was going on with the guys
going back to the moon or not to... But we—so, Camp Darby was really a lot of almost
preliminary stuff. We went to Dahlonega, Georgia—northern Georgia for a lot of—we did
mountaineering there, a lot of repelling and that sort of stuff. And a lot of patrol. Just patrol,
patrol, patrol through northern Georgia. Up the hills, down the hills, along the ridgelines. And we
completed that. You come back to Fort Benning, you get about an 8-hour break and then we
�were down at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida for the jungle phase of ranger school. And again,
more patrols. More patrols. We did a riverine assault, I think they called it, where we actually
were loaded onto Navy landing craft and did an assault on the—to the beaches. And then one
day, we were called together. And they started calling out names. And if your name was called, it
turned out, you went over there, it turned out you didn’t pass. And those guys—those guys had
just gone through the 9 weeks of hell and they didn’t have the grades to get the ranger tab. And
they found out on the next to the last day they didn’t graduate from ranger school, which…just
one of the toughest cuts you ever see in your life. And the rest of us then had one more day of
ranger school and it was all what they called administrative. There was no patrolling for grades
anymore. And so, we were—we were getting ready to go back out and I was a cigarette smoker
at the time and I was out of smokes. And my ranger buddy—you go through ranger school with a
ranger buddy and the two of you are supposed to be closer than husband and wife for that 9-week
period. You each depend on the other to keep going. And I was out of cigarettes and I saw Joe
throwing a couple packs of cigarettes in his rucksack. And I said, “Joe, I am out of cigarettes. Let
me have a pack to get me through this.” And he said, “No, I need these.” And I said, “Joe, we
only got one more day. What’s this all about?” He says, “They’re lying to us, Bob. They’re not
going to let us out of here.” So, I think I finally got a couple of smokes from him. But I
remember that: “They’re lying to us.” (00:19:56)
Interviewer: Alright. Well, I take it in the end they were not lying to you?
Veteran: No, we graduated the next day. They brought us in, we had a graduation ceremony out
on some abandoned runway up at Eglin Air Force Base. And they came by with a safety pin and
ranger tab and put it on your shoulder. And then we had…We had like this picnic. Barbeque, all
that kind of stuff. Beer. And we spent the night at that, on that airstrip in those, you know,
�Quonset huts. And I remember, I don’t know, it was maybe 3 or 4 in the afternoon or whatever.
The sun is kind of starting to set. And I remember walking to this Quonset hut and you see the
sun filtering through those windows and you see the dust floating. You know what I am talking
about? And we are all so exhausted that literally you hit that bunk and you are asleep in no time.
And I would see guys, and it was almost like walking into a morgue because guys had gone and
you know, fallen asleep before I got there and they just however they hit, that’s how they lay.
You know? It was an eerie feeling, you know? And 5 seconds later, I was one of them, you
know? So, we spent the night then at Eglin and then the next day, they took us back to Fort
Benning. We processed out but we had to spend a second night at Fort Benning. And one of the
things we were told was that literally they wanted us to get two good nights of sleep before we
left the post because they didn’t want us driving down the road and falling asleep and killing
ourselves or someone. So, the second night at Fort Benning. I had some leave. I went home. And
then I was assigned. My assignment was Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. I went out there and go
there I guess in October of 1969. And I was assigned as a training officer for a basic training
company. And maybe three weeks after I was there, the company commander, who was a first
lieutenant, his tour was up. He was out of the Army and they had no officers. And so, as the
second lieutenant, I became the commanding officer of Echo company, 5th battalion through
training brigade. And I was the smartest company commander on the post because when they
said I was in command, I got the drill sergeants together and I said, “You guys know what you’re
doing. You’ve been doing it for a long time. Keep doing it and I will stay out of your way.” And
that made all the sense in the world to me and so that’s what I did for the next…I guess until the
end of January 1970, when I had to—I left there and had my orders to Vietnam. (00:23:04)
�Interviewer: Alright. And so now—now, do you get…Do they give you another leave? Or,
because—
Veteran: Yeah, I had 30 days leave.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Before going to Vietnam.
Interviewer: And then when they sent you to Vietnam, how did they get you to Vietnam?
Veteran: The Via Panama. I went to—I was assigned to the jungle operations school down
in…was it Fort Howard, I think? In Panama. Which was kind of nice because first of all, Fort
Leonard Wood in the winter was called Little Korea, and with reason. And I really think, I mean
after ranger school, there was nothing that I really learned in jungle ops. But I think—I really
think it might be just acclimation. But I got there and found maybe 10 or 12 guys that I had gone
through jump school and ranger school with and so we kind of partied it up for 2 weeks in
Panama and drank every night and got up the next morning and went through the training and
then drank again every night. We weren’t the most serious students at the time, I must admit. But
again, there was nothing new for us to learn down there and so…But it was good to see those
guys again. (00:24:12)
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: So, I went there for 2 weeks. Then to Travis Air Base in San Francisco and then to
Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay. And did they put you on a military aircraft or charter?
Veteran: American Airlines.
�Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Remember where you stopped on the way over?
Veteran: Hawaii.
Interviewer: Okay. And did you get off or…?
Veteran: Go surfing? No. We got off—while they refueled us—we got off the plane. I think
technically I could say I was—have been in Hawaii but I didn’t touch the ground I guess, just
standing on the tarmac for some air while they refueled.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Alright, and then where do you land in Vietnam?
Veteran: Tan Son Nhut.
Interviewer: Okay. And what’s you first impression of Vietnam when you get there?
Veteran: My first impression was…The door opened and I saw these guys behind a wall. They
are screaming and yelling because the bird I took in was the bird they were going to take out.
And they were very, very happy to see their freedom bird. I think…And I think to me there was,
again there was—getting off that plane, there was a reality that sets in because there’s no way out
of this now, until the end of your tour. You know? And there’s no dodging what’s going to be
coming next. So, there was a harsh—to me there was a harsh reality that okay, you’re here now.
You know? And all the games are over.
Interviewer: Okay. So, when did you actually arrive in Vietnam? (00:25:49)
Veteran: It was the end of March. I am not sure of the exact of the day. It was the end of March,
1970.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you have orders for a unit yet? Or were you going to go find
them?
�Veteran: No. No. I was—we were given…we were given 3 options or 3 choices. And then, of
course this being the Army, none guaranteed. And I was somewhat of a mercenary at heart, I
guess. My first choice was 173rd Airborne Brigade because they were still in jump status. And I
figured if I am going to be there, at least get the extra money. My second choice was 101st
Airborne Division. My third choice was the Cav. And I went to the 101st. (00:26:33)
Interviewer: Alight. And how long did it take to sort that out?
Veteran: I think just a day or two.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now where was the 101st at that time?
Veteran: North—I Corps.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I flew into Phu Bai.
Interviewer: Did they still have a base back a Bien Hoa that you were allowed to go
through or do you just go up to Phu Bai?
Veteran: The 101st? No, I went straight to Phu Bai.
Interviewer: Okay. And once you got there, did they give you any kind of orientation
before putting you through?
Veteran: Yeah, there was. I think it was 4 or 5 days, something like that. It was called Screaming
Eagle Replacement Training—SERTs.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�Veteran: And that was…I really don’t remember a whole lot about the actual training we had
there. I remember—I remember a conversation I had with a chopper pilot when I was going
through SERTs. And I, again I, you know…He probably sensed that there was a second
lieutenant that was shaky on his feet. This guy was coming back from his second tour. He was a
Huey pilot. And I remember we had a conversation one day and it was a really good
conversation. Very reassuring. He—because he told me, he said—he said, “I don’t think you can
get yourself into a situation” he said, “As long as we have communication back and forth, I don’t
think you can get yourself into a situation where we can’t work something out for you.” And I
remember…That’s probably the major thing I remember from SERTs, is just…You know, you
just sort of get a feeling of confidence again that you know, okay this is doable. You know, other
people have done it. It was—it was just a very reassuring conversation I remember having with
this guy. I don’t remember his name or anything but it was a good conversation. It helped me.
(00:28:12)
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, you go through that. Now, what unit are you assigned to?
Veteran: Bravo Company 2nd Battalion 501st infantry.
Interviewer: Alright. And where were they at the time you joined them?
Veteran: They were maybe a mile south of a firebase called Ripcord.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: A place we called Reup Hill because it was…it was a very active area. And a lot of
people were re-enlisting. I shouldn’t say a lot. There were people who were re-enlisting to get
out of the field because it was a very hot area. And there was a section there called Reup Hill that
�had been a source of contention, let’s just say, once or twice between the U.S. and the North
Vietnamese.
Interviewer: Alright. And so, how do they get you out to the unit?
Veteran: Chopper.
Interviewer: Okay. Do you remember anything about that particular ride?
Veteran: No. I remember I…I flew out with a light colonel, a lieutenant colonel. I am not—I
don’t remember who it was. We went to a firebase. I don’t know if it was Ripcord or not. And I
was there for just a few minutes and then there was another chopper that took me out. Out to
where Bravo Company was. I landed, introduced myself to the company commander. My
platoon sergeant came over with the squad leaders and met them. I remember one of my guys,
one of the guys in my platoon saying that they had—well, they had been waiting and they had
killed a trail watcher and he was over by the side of the LZ. And he had asked me if I wanted to
go see him? And I remember just declining because I remember just thinking to myself, well
there will probably be a few more of these in the future so I will just wait until it happens. But
that’s, you know. So, I was on the ground. You know? (00:30:10)
Interviewer: Alright. Now, were you—was the man you were replacing, was he still there?
Or…?
Veteran: No, he was now the company executive officer.
Interviewer: Okay. And so, was he back in the base camp then?
Veteran: He was back in Phu Bai, yep.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: I met him, in the course of things though, yes.
Interviewer: Alright. And who was your company commander?
Veteran: Full name Robert Stanton.
Interviewer: Okay. And were you with him long or did he rotate out?
Veteran: For about 3 months. 3 months, 4 months.
Interviewer: Alright. And I guess, what kind of…What did you do? You joined your
company, your platoon basically, what did you do or how did you approach them when you
joined them?
Veteran: Well, I joined the company. It was probably mid to late afternoon. We were getting
ready to leave the LZ. My first conversations with the 3 squad leaders, I said—introduced myself
to them, told them who I was. And I had had, when I was at Fort Leonard Wood, I’d had some
bad experiences with NCOs. And so, I…And I told these guys that the only thing I expected of
them really was be truthful with me. Because I had some bad experiences with NCOs before.
They were lying to me and bad things happened. And I said, “You know, I am not here to make a
career off your back or anything like that. But, you know, we just have to be truthful with one
another and we will start everything from there.” That was my first relationship with those guys.
Interviewer: Alright. And so now you head off the firebase. You go out and settle in for the
night—
Veteran: Oh, off the landing zone.
Interviewer: Okay, so it’s an LZ not a firebase?
Veteran: Yeah.
�Interviewer: Okay. And then you make a night—make a night decision somewhere?
(00:32:08)
Veteran: We set up—we had, when I had landed it was—the company, the whole company was
there. My platoon and the company CP, command post, moved off the landing zone in one
direction. 2nd and 3rd platoons went another direction. We set up a night position and the
commanding officer told me that I needed to send a squad back down the trail. We had moved on
to set up a night ambush position. And the platoon sergeant told me that this duty rotated among
the three squads and it was—the first squad was up for—I think it was the first squad. Frankly, I
think it was. But the squad was up to go out. And they went out. We set up the—you know, the
rest of us set up the DP. And the next morning, the squad was hit. And it was wiped out. 4 of
them were killed outright and the rest were wounded. And that was my first morning in the
field… (00:33:38)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: …In Vietnam.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you get the wounded men out alive? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: One of them, I didn’t know it at the time, one of them was a paraplegic. He came back
to his home in Cincinnati, Ohio. My home is a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio. And he died in the
mid ‘80s. And his family was able to…They got his—his death was attributed to Vietnam, to
what he had suffered in Vietnam, so. And I think it was 1990 I opened the Cleveland paper and I
�read this story about a guy from Cincinnati whose name had been added to the wall. And they
talked about the fact that he had been with the 101st Airborne Division, you know, the squad that
was ambushed in April 1970. And I thought he had to be one. He had to be, right? I didn’t know
it—I didn’t know any of them.
Interviewer: Right. (00:34:58)
Veteran: I clipped that article and kept it and when I went—2003, I went to a reunion, my first
reunion with Bravo company. And my platoon medic was there and I showed it to him. He said
“Yeah, that was your guy.” That was us—one of ours. And you know, while I know that’s just
the way the cookie crumbles, I guess, I wished to hell I had known he was there. I could have
gone to see him, you know? You know I mean, I don’t know, maybe he would have said “Screw
you, you got me all fired up, get out of my house.” Or maybe we…I don’t know. But I would
have—I certainly would have gone down to see him. But yeah, so we got—we got the wounded
out.
Interviewer: So, how many men were in your platoon?
Veteran: Each squad was probably about 5-6 people. I had 3 squads so after that first day, I never
got that squad back. I went through—I went through several months in Vietnam as a platoon
leader and basically leaded a reinforced squad…12, 14 men. That was—I never got that squad
back. (00:36:16)
Interviewer: So, you’re not taking very many replacements at that point?
Veteran: We were not. We were not. I left the platoon in October and the last operation I went
out on, somewhere the floodgates opened because my room—my last operation, my platoon size
mostly doubled. And it’s—I mean, when you’re that small, you’re very, very quiet. You’re
�very—you become a very cohesive unit. And suddenly, we are twice as big. And it sounded like
a circus going through the jungles, as far as I was concerned. I couldn’t believe the noise. But
yeah, we didn’t get any replacements all through the—from April through the end of September.
Maybe one or two but you know, nothing—again, I never got that squad back. I only had two
squads.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, was the rest of the company in similar shape? Or do they have
at least a little bit bigger platoons?
Veteran: They have bigger platoons but they weren’t getting replacements that much either.
Interviewer: Yeah. Alright. So, that’s sort of your welcome to life in the field at that point.
So, that’s March, or thereabouts, 1970?
Veteran: First of April.
Interviewer: First of April, okay. And by this time, they are trying to establish—I mean
Ripcord doesn’t get established on a regular basis for another week or so after that. And
then there is a base there and your battalion is kind of in and out in that general area. So,
now kind of take us through now the next couple of months. What’s going on? What are
you seeing?
Veteran: We went—I think we left the Ripcord area for a while and then came back. But when
we were in Ripcord, it was just a constant skirmishing. Not on a daily basis, but two or three
contacts a week where a trail watcher or someone, we would have contact with. Quick contact
with. I lost…I lost eight guys total over there. The fifth guy was probably two weeks after that
first squad was ambushed. We were moving along the trail and came on an LZ and it turns out
there was a trail watcher on the other side there. This by example. We start moving across and he
�opens up on us. You know, this was the sort of thing that would happen. And I lost a guy there. It
was just pretty constant skirmishing. Nothing—no major pitched battles. But just constantly
bumping heads with the NVA. All around that Ripcord area. I don’t think we were alone in that.
I think a lot of units were having the same experiences. Because they were patrolling heavily too.
They were, I think, they were trying to figure out how many of us were out there just as much as
we were trying to figure out how many of them were out there. (00:39:54)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, in these months, sort of kind of April/May/June, is your platoon
normally by itself or are you more commonly—
Veteran: For the most part, yes. We were. Yeah. I don’t think we had that many company-sized
operations at that time. And again, when you’re—when you have 12 or 14 people, it makes
you…You become a very cohesive unit. I wouldn’t—I wouldn’t recommend going to war with
12 or 14 people but if you do it, you quickly find out how tight you can be. (00:40:33)
Interviewer: Now, how long did they keep you out in the field?
Veteran: God, weeks. 3, 4, 5 weeks at a time. I remember once we didn’t get fresh uniforms. You
know? But you just, you know, you…You know, you don’t go back and sleep at night, you don’t
go back for a shower at night, you don’t get warm breakfast in the morning. It’s just—those
operations were anywhere from 4 to 6 weeks.
Interviewer: Okay. And what—did you have kind of the standard operating procedure if
you are moving from one area to another? What do you do or not do?
Veteran: Well, you start each day with a stand down. You know, early in the morning. And that
can go for, you know, 20 minutes—whatever it takes. What you’re looking for: you want the
first light to pass, so you don’t get hit at first light. So, you start with a stand down at first light.
�You end the day with a stand down at last light. And in between those two things that you always
do, there was no pattern because I didn’t want a pattern. Some days after first light, we’d eat.
Some days after first light, we were moving. I don’t ever want to get caught in a routine because
someone might pick up on my routine and do a swarm. Sometimes at night, you’re moving to an
NDP at 6 o’clock at night and you eat and you stay there tonight. Other nights, you are moving—
you’ll sit down and you’ll, you know, eat at 4, 5, 6 o’clock and maybe 10-15 minutes before last
light, you move to another position before you find an NDP. You never want to set a pattern. So,
when you asked me what went on—there is no pattern. You know? But you don’t…You just
don’t want to…But you don’t want to stay in one place too long. Other than obviously at night,
you’re going to stay there. But you’d hear about—I don’t know if it happened a lot with those
platoons, but you would hear about officers who would call in fake positions. And they would
stay in one spot because they thought that was safe. Well, I think that was the most dangerous
thing in the world you could do. There was no way in hell I would have ever done that to my
men. You know, you just—you always assume the worst. And that’s how you operate.
(00:43:14)
Interviewer: Okay. Would you move on trails or off them?
Veteran: Both. But many times with ridge land, there’s only one way to go and that is the trail.
You know? But there were times, actually, there were times when I would take my platoon off
the ridge line, down along the side and move through an area. You know, sometimes you would.
If you do that, you want to keep at least one guy or two on the top as long as the flank position.
But yeah actually, there were times when I’d move on the side of the hill.
Interviewer: And did you have rules about day and night noise discipline, light discipline,
that kind of thing?
�Veteran: Yeah. Yeah. Basically…I think the thing that—the noise that used to grate on me the
most was a zipper liner closing. You know? Because it’s so foreign to the jungle. You know, you
don’t want any noise that’s foreign to the jungle. I had guys that one time got a fucking radio.
That’s what it was, a fucking—well, he didn’t have it long. I mean, you don’t play a radio out in
the middle of the jungle in my platoon. You know? Who are you? You know? Yeah,
so…Smoking at night, I will admit to you that we did some of that. You know, you’re not
supposed to but we did some of that. But you’d, you know, get a little poncho over your head or
something like that to light the cigarette or whatever. But you know, not too much of that.
(00:44:39)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But every once in a while, you know, you just…
Interviewer: Alright. And how did you get your food? Fresh water? That kind of thing.
Veteran: Well, mostly helicopter supply. If we found streams, we obviously—we used them. But
most of our water and obviously the food came in every 4 days on log birds.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: And they were their own problem because that’s when you were exposed. Everyone in
the unit knew where you were because that—the chopper was there. And now, so again you
know, you got a 19-year old, 20-year old kid. I was the old guy; I was 24 years old. You got a
19-20-year old kid and he’s got a letter from home. What’s he going to do with it? He wants to
read it. What do I want to do? I want to get his ass moving out of this visibility where everyone
in the world knows where we are. And we will stop 10 minutes down the road, 15 minutes down
the—whatever, read it then. You know? It’s a matter of trying to…It was controlled paranoia, I
�think that’s what it is, okay? You just, you know you—you don’t relax. You don’t relax. And
honestly you know, if I couldn’t see behind the tree, my assumption was always there’s
something bad behind the tree. And that’s kind of what you do. (00:46:15)
Interviewer: Alright. Now did you have kind of sort of the same core group of guys in for
the next several months?
Veteran: Yeah kind of, in a way.
Interviewer: Or you’d maybe have one guy out and one guy in once in a while?
Veteran: Get once? I am sorry?
Interviewer: One guy out and one guy in? So, you’d stay about the same level in the
beginning?
Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, in terms of total numbers, yeah. Yeah, I had two squad leaders. You know,
that—I did, my two squad leaders were there for quite a while. I had a platoon sergeant when I
got there. He was what we called a shake and bake. Went through NCO school. Graduated at the
top of his class. He was an E-6, and I think only the top 1-2%, whatever it is in NCO school,
became an E-6. And he had actually been with the 5th Mech Division, which was north of us in I
Corps and they had been sent home and he didn’t have enough time in, so he was sent to the
101st. So, he was my first platoon sergeant. And he was—he was an excellent platoon sergeant.
And he left I guess in July. And then I got a—we called a hard stripe E-6, you know the kind that
come through the ranks. So, I was very, very fortunate I had two excellent platoon sergeants.
And that goes a long way to help run a platoon.
�Interviewer: Alright. Now, your battalion gets involved, or engaged, in some of the stuff
going on around Ripcord as things get more intense. So, I guess what kind of, just in
general, we are kind of following your time in Vietnam. So, you’re doing patrolling in and
out of the Ripcord area. Operations for a while. Ripcord itself really starts to heat up in
July, when the actual base comes under siege and so forth. What is your battalion doing
around that time? (00:48:03)
Veteran: Well, we were in the Ripcord area. We were probably, if I can get my directions correct
here, a little south of Ripcord, I guess. And we had some—we had some significant contacts
there. I remember at one point, there was this huge mountain called Coc Muen. I am trying to
remember my directions. I think it was south of Ripcord.
Interviewer: Yeah, it was south and west.
Veteran: South and west, yeah. I set up there. This was one time when we—we did stay in one
spot for two days. I was attached with—I was attached to the recon platoon, the Italian recon
platoon. And we were…We were up on Coc Muen for a couple of days. And we moved off and
we had a trail watcher following us. And one of my guys spotted him because recon platoon…I
think recon platoon was on the point. We were following them. But the decision was made that
we would get—that we’d go back and get this trail watcher and kill him. And they sent their—
the recon platoon had sent a sniper team back. And the guy was on a little—he was above us, a
little ridgeline. And I went back with them. And he missed the kill. He hit the guy in the hip. And
the problem was, you know again, I couldn’t see up there to know what was up there. Because
this guy was up there. He’s moaning, he was hit. And I couldn’t get a chopper out to recon that
area for us. And so, I don’t know is this guy by himself? Or does he have a squad up there that is
now using him as bait? Because my instinct is well, go get the guy. You know, grab a medic,
�let’s go. But I can’t risk this. And we stayed there for I don’t know how long, just listening to
this man die. And that was a bitter, bitter feeling. Just unable to do anything for this guy.
(00:51:02)
Interviewer: Wasn’t staying there also kind of dangerous? I mean, there had been a
gunshot. Or, was the sniper shot quiet?
Veteran: Well, it could have been dangerous. I wasn’t going to walk away from it, I guess. It
could have been but I just remember…So, we set up that night and my platoon would always put
out booby traps, mechanical ambushes, where we just left. And we had a joint CP with the recon
platoon leader and his CP and mine. And…And someone, somewhere along the way said he
thought he saw more trail watchers on the way we come in. And I remember the sniper came into
the CP and he wanted to go back out and try to get them this time. And this was getting toward
dusk. And he wanted to go through my position, my part of the perimeter. And I, you know, of
course I knew what was out there and I told him. I said, “Check with my people before you leave
this perimeter because we will have booby traps out there.” And I think it went in one ear and out
the other. And the next thing we heard were the claymores going off. And this sniper and his
spotter I found where they had just blown right through the perimeter, right into the claymores.
But by that time, you know, it was almost dark. The spotter was killed instantly. The sniper was
badly, badly wounded. And by the time we got the med evac out there, it was dark. We brought
in those strobe lights. And he died on the way in. The—our sniper. And I just…I mean, just a
tough day. So, now we have made contact with the NVA and you know, the battles there, but
other things happen, you know? And—I mean that movie that came out about a year or two ago
about the sniper in Iraq and—there’s no way in hell I am going to go see that movie. You know,
there just is no way in hell I am going to. I just—I am not going to deal with…I mean, right now
�is maybe the 4th or 5th time I have talked to people about this thing. It’s just a horrendous day.
You know? I mean, we let the guy up there die and then the guy who walks into a booby trap.
Just miserable, miserable day. So, in addition to again, sort of bumping heads with the NVA
around Ripcord, you know these other things are going on which are just difficult. (00:54:10)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Now, I think your battalion got involved in a couple places around Ripcord, I
think—
Veteran: We did, yeah. We went, on the 14th of July, we went after—we went after Hill 1000.
The 506th had tried to go up with I guess the…Get my map straight here. They tried to go up the
west side of Hill 1000 a couple weeks earlier and almost got to the top. But they couldn’t stay
there. We tried to go up the east side. We had gone back to resupply. This was after the incident
with the sniper. We went back to Phu Bai for about a day, resupplied, came back out, again
landed up on Coc Muen, then moved down. Moved down toward Hill 1000 and went after it the
second day. We moved out with recon platoon on the point, Bravo company 2nd in the
movement. And hit a bunker complex on Hill 1000. And it would be—I saw the NVA were
going up with RPGs into the trees so you get that spreading effect of the shrapnel. And pretty
much shoot up the recon platoon. There was a guy who, I didn’t know his name, I think I might
have known it at one time, lost his hand in that explosion down in there. And it was amazing—in
the middle of that fire fight, I think he was in shock. But I think he was also lucid enough to
know that he couldn’t stay there because he was going to bleed to death. And I remember
watching this guy: he got up and he walked out of that fire fight just as you’d walk to the grocery
�store to buy a loaf of bread. And he was holding…And I mean, rounds are going everywhere.
And he was—he was unscathed after losing his hand. He walked right out of the battle.
Damndest thing I have ever saw in my life. But we pulled back. We got recon out of there. We
pulled back, brought in artillery—I am sorry, brought in an air part with another—brought in the
fast movement, the 105s. And I think just bombed the hell out of those bunkers. I remember
literally the ground shaking. And the concussion was knocking branches off trees that were
flopping down on us. One of my guys actually got cut in the face with tree particles flying
around. And I—he was a good soldier. And he looked as white as those sheets. And I was trying
to buck him up and I remember I just told him, I said, “Listen, I’ll put you in for a purple heart.”
Better day, kind of trying to joke with him about it. So, the jets finished their work. And we went
after the bunkers again, this time Bravo was the pointer. The 2nd platoon was leading us, my
platoon was right behind Bravo. And they got about the same point recon did and once again, an
RPG initiated the contact. And they got the same thing, you know. They got many guys
wounded. A lot of people fired up there. And I took—I took my platoon down through to relieve
them and we managed to get them out of there. And we withdrew. I think we had—I think we
had over 20 guys wounded that day. But when I got back to the company position, I found that
this guy that had been—that had hit with that tree bark and I told him I’d give him a purple heart,
he was dead. He had apparently been helping evacuate some wounded guys onto med evacs and
apparently a stray round came out of nowhere and went right through him. And that was the last
guy I lost. He was the 8th that I lost. And we set up that night and I thought, well, we will go
again tomorrow. I really thought we would go again tomorrow. And I figured well okay, let’s
see…I think I know who is going to be on point tomorrow, right? And, we didn’t. We withdrew
from Hill 1000. And I—as I think about Ripcord and I think about that battle, I feel—then again,
�I am not a great military tactician by any stretch. But I think that really…That was a
foreshadowing of leaving Ripcord. I think…I think Hill 1000 was…I think we had to have Hill
1000 if we wanted to keep Ripcord. It was just—the NVA were just using it as a launching pad
for a lot of stuff onto Ripcord. And it was higher than Ripcord. And I think—I think in
retrospect, that was the foreshadowing of the withdrawment. This was the—this was the 14th and
we withdrew I think it was the 23rd of July. And yeah, we withdrew from that battle. (01:00:53)
Interviewer: But did you come back to the Ripcord area before the evacuation? Or were
you now just in other places?
Veteran: We went south and constructed a firebase called Brick. And really, that was…That was
sort of the—Ripcord was the last real significant contacts I had in Vietnam. The next several
months, every once in a while, something would happen but it was not heavy-duty.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so we have gotten to the point in your story where you talked
about having left the Ripcord area and you no longer had a lot of intense activity in your
remaining months in the field. But you had some larger comment about what you saw
going on there?
Veteran: Yeah. I think…This was an army that was withdrawing. The only war left in Vietnam
was I Corps. I am pretty sure of that. And the only unit fighting in I Corps was 101st airborne
division. And these guys knew it. I mean you know, by 19-20 years old, maybe they weren’t the
most sophisticated people in the world but they knew that everyone else was leaving and they
were left to fight a war that the country was withdrawing from. And it was not easy duty for
them. It was not…It was not—it was not a time filled with glory and all of those things. And as I
think back about it, I think one of the things that really impresses me is, and what I think is
�overlooked a lot, is the courage these guys had. You know, it’s easy to talk about the courage of
the Army of ’65, ’66, ’67. But by 1970, we tend to want to start thinking about the Army in
Vietnam with drug problems and race issues and lack of discipline and certainly that was there,
to one extent or another. It was not there in the field at Ripcord. It was not there when we went
into battle and there were guys who didn’t want to go but their buddies going and they’re going
to go with them. And there was courage. There was a courage that these guys exhibited that I
think is undervalued. And it needs to be acknowledged. And so, my point there is, you know this
was not—these guys did what they had to do and they tried to take care of themselves and each
other as best they could. And they—and it was a crappy mission. I think if Ripcord had been
1968, the 101st would have piled on every asset they had and would have borrowed assets if they
had needed them and we would have established Ripcord and did what we had to do. But it was
not 1968, it was 1970. The political situation was different. But the courage of these men was
still there. (01:04:23)
Interviewer: Yeah. One of the stereotypes is—and it’s something that some people in
higher levels of the command certainly thought that in 1971 or so, was that—and if the
Army couldn’t fight or was in crisis or whatever. But you still see here at this point, and
this is consistent with what I’ve gotten from an awful lot of people who were there, was that
the soldiers in the field would still fight and they could still be effective and part of it was
because they had to be to get out of there alive. But that could still function and that most
guys were still actually doing their jobs.
Veteran: Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Now, you have—now with officers, it’s a standard thing to rotate them in
different assignments. So, what happened to you and your assignment? I mean, did
�you…Now, you have mentioned something about when you were supposed to rotate out,
when you really did rotate out. Talk a little bit about that and how that worked.
Veteran: Yeah. Well, after Ripcord, after July, I had been there 4 months and 4 months seemed
to be the standard for an officer to serve in the field. And I recall we were—we were in Phu Bai
on a stand down and I was told…And jeez, I don’t know who could have—Sometime in the end
of July, my company commander Captain Stanton left and a Captain named Joe Swazzle—
Schwazzle or Swazzle? Replaced him. And I was—someone came to me and said that they were
looking for a rear job for me because I had completed my 4 months in the field. And again, there
was 4 months with no replacements coming through and I simply remember asking, “Who takes
the platoon?” Because if nothing else, I’d like to meet my replacement and sort of orient him or
whatever. And I was told they had no officers, that they would simply assign the task to the
platoon sergeant. He was certainly a very, very capable man but he was not being paid to be a
platoon leader. He was a platoon sergeant. Actually, he wasn’t even a platoon sergeant, he was
an E-6. Technically, he should have been a squad leader but the Vietnam of the day, he was a
platoon sergeant. And so, I simply, I said “You know, when you have a replacement, I will leave
the field. Otherwise, I will stay in my platoon.” And as it turns out, one of the things you, I—the
reason, or at least I did early on for me on my tours, you get there and they ask well, when do
you want to go on R and R and where you want to go and you get that paperwork out of the way.
And my R and R was scheduled for after 7 months and as it turns out, that’s when they got a
replacement platoon leader for me. So, I had the platoon for 7 months. Went on R and R to
Australia. Came back and found that I had been assigned to the battalion staff as the S-2, the
intelligence officer. And…And that was a strange job in a way. I remember at first, I didn’t—I
just, I couldn’t…I don’t think we generated that. I wasn’t interrogating prisoners or any of that
�kind of stuff. It was just—my job…I don’t know. I don’t know that I really did it particularly
well because I didn’t understand what they wanted of me. And no one was very forthcoming
with what I should have been doing. And I have, you know, when officers would come—the
brigade commander or the assistant division commander or division commander would come in,
and one of them—at least one of them showed up every day for briefing because the world was
on forward firebase. And so, we’d have a briefing for them and it would always start with the S-2
in terms of talking about any activity that happened in the last day or two, contacts or this that,
what are the disposition of the units. And then the operations officer, the S-3, would talk about
what are plans for the future and then the battalion commander would sort of wrap things up and
whatever discussion ensued took place. And there was a young secretary and I was always
quietly off to the side. But I will say that I have—while I think I did my job as a platoon leader
as best I could, I mean there are things I certainly would change, but I just—I never felt that I did
a great job as the S-2 because I never fully understood what I should have been doing. And I will
say there have been times when I look back on that and I wonder about it. You know, that’s an
area where I really should have tried to improve myself but I am not sure what I would have
done. (01:09:29)
Interviewer: You weren’t getting guidance from the battalion commander or XO or
anybody else?
Veteran: No. No, or even brigade S-2. You know? And I tried to reach out to him a couple times.
I mean, no one said you are doing anything wrong. You know, no one said, you know, “Jeez,
you’re the crappiest S-2 I’ve ever seen in my life.” But it just seemed to me that, you know, I
should be—there should be more that I was doing. I don’t know. I did in that period…Probably
in March of ’71…No later than March ’70. We had a combined operation with the 1st ARVN
�division. And I was assigned to the 1st ARVN as a liaison officer with the battalion, which I
found an interesting couple weeks in the field with the ARVN. I mean, they operate in totally
different ways than we did. You know, sit out and build fires at night and each officer had his
own little bat boy who would hang—strong his hammock for him and everything. It was going to
war the riviera style, if you will. So, I did do that but the…Yeah, the stint as the…As the
battalion intelligence officer—I just never really felt that I got a good handle on that. (01:11:00)
Interviewer: Okay. I want to jump back for a minute to the R and R in Australia. What
was it like to go to Australia after having been in Vietnam all that time?
Veteran: I had a meltdown. I learned…Which, years later in my life, I heard the term “survivor’s
guilt” and immediately I understood it. I mean you know, I got to sit in the—you know, the first
couple days I did what any G.I. does on R and R, right? You know, find some booze, find a
woman. And about the 3rd day, I just had this horrendous, horrendous guilt feeling crashing down
on me because here I was in a bar, drinking and having fun and you know, with women, and my
platoon was back there in the monsoon now. You know, it was October, it was monsoon month.
And it’s cold and it’s wet and it’s, you know…And I literally—literally drank the last half of my
R and R. And that’s all I did. Either in my room or there was a bar on the ground floor of the
hotel and I would just go there and…because I…And I knew, you know, I knew I was going to
go back to Vietnam and get killed because I had abandoned my platoon, you know? Deserters
get killed there. And I must have heard…I must have heard on the jukebox in that bar “The
Boxer.” Simon and Garfunkel. There was someone in that bar that played that song about 1000
times a day. I mean I just—I remember drinking, being drunk as hell, and hearing “The Boxer.”
And that was my last couple days of my R and R. I just—I couldn’t deal with, you know, I just
really…So, my R and R was not…a great deal. (01:13:13)
�Interviewer: Did you have any impression of the Australians or how they treated the
Americans there?
Veteran: The 2—my first couple of days there, yeah, they were great to us. Which I will say
really surprised me because I thought well, God by this time, they are going to be as sick of G.I.s
as any Army town around the United States, you know? But they were very, very friendly as far
as I can remember.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But I just couldn’t handle it.
Interviewer: So, was it almost a relief to go back to Vietnam at that point?
Veteran: Except I really thought I was going to get killed. So, I am not sure if it was a relief or
not. I don’t know what it was. I just know that it was a horrible time.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, were you still there when the South Vietnamese conducted their
operation in the Laos?
Veteran: The Lam Son 719.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: That was—I remember I was leaving as that was starting. (01:14:09)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Bravo company had a big part in that. It was the 2501 rather that had a big part in that,
because apparently, we provided a lot of the security up to the border. And I would think…I
�would think that the Bravo S-2 probably had a lot to do at that point, you know? But it wasn’t
me. You know?
Interviewer: Alright, so you’re on your way out?
Veteran: I was on my way out, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, what—as you…Now, how did they get you out of Vietnam? Or,
what is the process? Your year runs out, do you just wait for orders? Or…?
Veteran: Well, actually what happened was yeah, I—they finally—I was sent back to Phu Bai to
process out. And everyone knows his deros date—the day I am going to leave. And I didn’t get
any orders. And I wouldn’t know the day and then no orders. And finally, I went to the battalion
and someone says, “You’re not supposed to leave for 2 weeks” and “because you got here March
of…” whatever, you know. And I said, “Yeah, but I went to Panama and that counts as 2 weeks
overseas duty.” “Oh really? Don’t worry sir, we will have orders for you this afternoon.” And
they did. You know, they did come up. But if I hadn’t walked in there, they didn’t realize that I
had 2 weeks in Panama first and that was supposed to count as part of the overseas duty.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So yeah, so that’s—you know, I sort of got myself out of it, in a sense. (01:15:33)
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now—
Veteran: Went to Da Nang and flew to Fort Washing—Fort Lewis, Washington.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you still have time left to serve on your enlistment or were you
done?
Veteran: I was done.
�Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: ROTC was 2 years active duty commitment and…
Interviewer: I guess you had trained long enough before you got to Vietnam at that…
Veteran: Yeah, that and the time at Fort Leonard Wood. My active duty was—on my DD214, it
was a year and 11 months and like 15 days or something. I got 2 weeks of vacation pay for…so I
got that.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did the Army make any effort to encourage you to stay in?
(01:16:11)
Veteran: Yeah. They—I was informally…Officers in Vietnam—my, probably the one that
impressed me the most was my company first sergeant, wanted me to stay in. And I think any
time an NCO says to a lieutenant…You know, you give that consideration. I mean, you know,
because I respected the hell out of him and the fact that he thought I should stay in the Army
meant a lot to me. My last company commander wanted me to. And there were a couple other
guys. I had a long talk with an officer—well, a long talk? I had a talk with him. He was a West
Pointer. I can’t remember his name. he had been with a mech unit somewhere in the south and
they went home and he came up to 101st. And I remember I had a discussion with him one time.
Because he was in for the long haul. He wanted a career in the Army and he was the guy that
thought I should stay in. And I—and I said, “Well, why do this?” Because the Army was a mess
then. I mean it was, you know, it was getting to be a mess. And he—and I was so impressed with
his answer. He told me, he said, “Look,” he said “that’s—anyone can be an officer when the
going is easy.” He said, “Now is when the Army needs us.” You know? And I was impressed
with his, you know, he was going to stay in. You know? I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t, it wasn’t in
�me but I admired him because he was, you know. He knew that it was going to be tough. He
knew that it was a bad Army at that time but he also knew that the bad Army needed good
officers and he was going to—he was going to ride it out. And I admired that in him but I—you
know, it just wasn’t in me to be a career officer. (01:18:06)
Interviewer: So, what had you seen at that point that led you to think it was a bad Army?
Veteran: Well, I—because of the stuff that was going on in the rear, with the drug issues and that
kind of stuff, the racial issues. I wasn’t in the rear that much, but I knew of it.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And I knew those problems were there. And it was also an Army that was—that you
know, that the country didn’t give a damn about at that point either. There was—I don’t think
there was anything easy about the Army in the ‘70s.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know? And…But, you know, this guy was—he was sticking it out. I think, you
know, people like that deserve a lot of credit.
Interviewer: Alright, so you come back now. What do you do once you get out?
Veteran: Initially, I had another…I had another one of those…I was released in Fort Lewis. And
you know, there must have been a group of 20 or so of us. And we were taken to a bus station on
post and there was a ticket booth to Seattle/Tacoma international and there was a ticket booth to
the city of Seattle. And there was this mad dash for the airport and I remember standing there
and looking at the two of them and I realized I couldn’t go home. I wasn’t ready to. You know? I
needed to process a lot of this stuff, so I went to Seattle. I got a room there at a YMCA. It had a
�bed and a lavatory and a layout 2-4 to a room. And all the showers and the toilets down the hall.
And I stayed in Seattle for about a week. And I just walked the streets. Get up in the morning, go
out and get some coffee, read the newspaper, walks. Just to get it back. You know? I mean you
think about it: they—you know, even the guy who’s drafted and gets some basic AIT, he’s
trained to go. You get nothing to come back. You know? And I think that, you know. And that’s
one of the feelings I look back on, in all my military time, I think that is one of the failings of the
Army. You know, I was in an airplane for 12 hours or so. We didn’t need 12 hours of orientation
to come back but it could have been something, you know? I knew if I went home, I wouldn’t be
able to handle it right away. You know, my mom would be, “Oh, good to see you” and letting
the family know and all that. Not that I didn’t want to see them, I just wasn’t ready. Not yet. I
remember walking to a little mom and pop place one night, you know the linoleum floor type
place, for dinner. And I was sitting at the table and there’s a couple over there and they get up to
leave and I remember the guy reaches in his pocket and puts—leaves change on the table and
walks away. And I am not kidding you one second, it took me 2 or 3 minutes to remember tip. I
couldn’t remember. Why the hell is this guy walking away leaving money? You know I—and
finally, I got it back. So, I…You know, I—that was nothing that was planned. It’s just when I hit
that spot, you know, this way or that way, I just—something in my gut just said you don’t go
home right now. You know, you got to sort this out. So, then I went home. And I was still, you
know, trying to adjust to the world, I guess. I was in the states for 3 months and I packed a
rucksack and went to Europe. And I spent 7 months hitchhiking through Europe. Just, again,
processing. Processing, processing. Came back from Europe. One of the things that had
happened back in the late ‘60s at Ohio University, I had a degree in Business Administration but
I knew I really didn’t want to—I wasn’t cut out for the corporate world. And I think a lot of that
�social upheaval at that time in the ‘60s…I got really interested in that: what’s going on there,
how does you get—how does the nation deal with it, what office shoulders it. It led me to a
career in urban planning and so I came back—after I came back from Europe, I went to the
University of Akron and got a degree in Urban Planning. And went to work for a 5-county
regional transportation planning organization in the Cleveland area. And my—I think the thing
that mostly interested me in business I know, in the business curriculum, was economics. The
thing that interested me a lot in going through the planning programs was urban economics. So, I
gravitated into a lot of work in urban economics. I ended up getting a second Master’s degree in
Econ, and I worked—I guess I worked 32 years there in the field of urban economics. A lot of
analysis, a lot of demographic work also. Which I found very—I enjoyed. I really did. It was
very, very interesting to me. I never had the sense…I never went to work a day in my life. I was
never got up and said, “Damn,” you know, “I got to…” I enjoyed it. You know? And I think I
was extremely fortunate in that regard. (01:23:27)
Interviewer: Alright. Now, to look back at the time that you spent in the Army, how do you
think that affected you overall? Positive? Negatively?
Veteran: Well, I think there’s no question it was a positive. I mean, I am sure there was some
negatives here and there. I think…I think people—we should serve our country. First of all, just
flat ass, we should serve our country. I think—and again, in a sense, I served my country in
Vietnam. I feel I served my country in a career in public planning. I am now retired. I serve my
country 2 days a week with Habitat for Humanity, building houses for people. I don’t see
anything wrong with a life spent like that. I have nothing against, you know, the guy that took
the career in finance and went to work for Merrill Lynch and made his billions. That’s part of
this also, you know. But this was my way. I think…I think had I—well, I never would have
�avoided the service, I never would have gone to Canada. I know that. But let’s say I had a bum
knee from football or something like that—was medically ineligible for service. I think that
would have bothered me a lot. My father served in World War 2. All of my uncles served in
World War 2. I sort of—and frankly, had there not been a war, I would have been in the Army. I
mean, I would have gone in the military. Because that—I sort of…I mean, we didn’t, you know.
There wasn’t a big flag waving at home or anything like that but I knew they were all there. And
I would have been in the military, war or not. So, I look back on—and I look back with pride on
my military time. I do.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, it makes for a good story so thank you very much for taking the
time to share it today.
Veteran: Thank you. (01:25:35)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_LaytonR2159V
Title
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Layton, Robert (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Date
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2017-10-03
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Layton was born in Madison, Indiana on August 24th, 1946 and graduated high school in 1964. He briefly attendd the Univeristy of Arizona before transferring to to Ohio University where he participated in the ROTC program in 1966. Layton underwent Basic Training at Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania, in 1967, and graduated college in 1969. He then attended his infantry officer's traiing course at Fort Benning, Georgia, and completed both jump school and ranger training. His first assignment as an officer was to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, in 1969 before he was deployed to Vietnam with the B Company, 2nd Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. His unit articipated in combat at Firebase Ripcord as well as Hill 1000 before Layton was reassigned as an S-2 Intelligence Officer. After two years of deployment, he left the service and completed his Master's degree in Urban Planning and, later, in Economics.
Creator
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Layton, Robert Wayne
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f434e7d5d514753cb2c0731c7e1fed99.mp4
cda1ac3fdf8c207719926c2efaa20d05
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1cbbe08e56257676fcb2bfe6c06f5687.pdf
71392e06cbc6493cffd4dc86a438095f
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Interview length: 1:53:02
James: We're talking today with Kent Laudeman of Niles Michigan. The interviewer is James
Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. But if you can start us off
with some background on yourself, and to begin with where and when were you born.
Kent: I was born in 1943 in Bremen Indiana, it's about 25 miles south of South Bend.
James: Okay, and did you grow up there?
Kent: I grew up there until I went to college and then kind of left that particular area to Western
Michigan University.
James: Okay, what did your family do for a living when you were growing up there?
Kent: My dad was a farmer and I grew up on a farm, and my mother did some office work for
Monsanto .
James: Okay alright, and when did you finish high school?
Kent: In 1961?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Okay and then you went to Western Michigan University from there?
Kent: I went to Indiana Central College for two years and then transferred it up to Western
Michigan University and was there for a total of seven years. I avoided the draft for a long long
time.
James: It was that, that was the year you could still go with graduate school to keep you out?
Kent: It was 65 I mean I was I was doing a college deferment from 61 to 65.
James: Mm-hmm.
Kent: And then 65 to 68 three years of graduate work and continued that deferment.
James: Alright.
Kent: Till Uncle Sam caught on.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: I guess my impression was that in a lot of cases the Graduate School deferment had
already gone away, or did you start early enough that?
[0:00 - 1:35]
Kent: Well the draft ended in 75 so I was still 66, 67, 68.
James: Yeah, but I think and I think and that my impression wasn't that figure yet that the
graduate school deferment had already gone away. You couldn't just hide in graduate school
necessarily.
Kent: No, I could until they caught up with me in 68 and didn't let me defer any more because I
wasn't married. I wasn't working at an okay situation.
James: So you managed to kind of get there under the radar?
Kent: Right.
James: Okay, so what were you studying in graduate school?
Kent: Undergraduate work was elementary education because I thought I wanted to be a
teacher and a principal, and then I got into counseling and Student Personnel Services.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Alright so what kind of impression or understandings did you have of the Vietnam War
while you were in college?
Kent: Well interesting that's probably why I pursued the deferment. Nobody in my family had
ever been in the service so I had no experience to fall back on and that wasn't really a pleasant
time with Kent State Jackson State and so forth is the culture was such that you were kind of for
or against it okay.
James: Alright yeah so it's all sort of kind of going on.
Kent: Yeah.
James: Alright so but then you eventually you get a notice.
Kent: I was drafted so I changed from one induction Center which was Indiana up to Michigan.
Deferred for a little bit more, got a delayed entry plan because I was writing a thesis for a
specialist degree at that particular time. That bought me another three months it got me into late
August and September.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: But of what year?
Kent: Of 1968.
James: Okay alright, and so at this point are you going in as enlisted?
[1:34 - 3:27]
Kent: So I was drafted as enlisted. I had checked and thought maybe I could get into Social
Work or something like that with the counseling background, but the recruiters said no we really
don't need that kind of person. So, I was drafted got in did basic and advanced training at Fort
Dix New Jersey.
James: Okay.
Kent: 11 Bravo infantry.
James: Okay so you said go Fort Dix for basic what was that like, but what happened there.
Kent: Well I was lucky enough to be put in a company and a platoon that had mostly college
students in it.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: mm-hmm
Kent: Which was just exceptional. I mean they kind of said we were all loafing, but when it came
time to take the APFT the physical fitness test we always came through. We we knew when we
had to show up as were about it. Otherwise okay, we were playing the game and going through
all of the drill and and everything like that and being a good soldier. Okay but but not being
overly good as far as a soldier is concerned.
James: Okay what impression did you have of the drill instructors? Or did you know anything
about what their backgrounds were?
Kent: Smoky hats were pretty much pushers. NCO’s, good physical shape, gun ho. I mean what
we pretty much experienced I think given my fireman background discipline hard work and so
forth. It didn't hit me in terms of the discipline and regimentation like it did some college
graduates.
James: Okay so you adapted to army life relatively easy.
Kent: Right.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Okay now did some of the other guys you were with have a lot more trouble?
Kent: Oh yes.
James: What kinds of things went on with them?
[3:28 - 5:15]
Kent: Some of it was just the pressure and the stress of the constant pushing encouragement to
do better, excel be all you can be when they kind of knew what they could be. And because they
were drafted didn't want to be maybe and we're just there because they were drafted. Okay and
pushing through the two years or the three years whatever they had been required to sign up
for.
James: But were they basically accepting of their fate on some level and “Okay I'm-”
Kent: Pretty much so.
James: “-gonna get through it.”
Kent: Pretty much so yes.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Alright how long did basic last?
Kent: Ooh... Eight weeks and then another eight weeks for advanced infantry training.
James: Okay now to what extent was the advanced training geared toward Vietnam?
Kent: It's always lingering in the back of your mind. I mean this is the height from 65 to 75 so 68
late 68 69 that was there the NCOs had pushed us said, “you know if you don't do well you're
gonna probably end up there.” So you know they used it in a motivating kind of way but really
none of the training for basic RIT other was standard training. I mean it was not in preparation
for Vietnam it was standard training.
James: Alright so you could go anywhere essentially?
Kent: Go anywhere.
James: Okay that was another eight weeks?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: So I finished the AIT and then you get sent on for MOS training in a particular school, they
sent me to Fort Gordon, Georgia to be an auto den person, which is typist and message
trafficking and so forth. And so I went down there and that happened to be also where social
workers in the army went. There were gonna be officers so I scampered over there then gently
inquired and said, “You know what's the chances of getting transferred out of auto den training
to being in Social Work given my particular background,” and nobody would listen to me, but in
basic I put all the paperwork in for a correct Commission.
James: Okay.
[5:16 - 7:34]
Kent: And that came through once I got I finished auto den training.
James: So what did auto den training consist of.
Kent: Basically teletype that kind of messaging. Okay ticker tape cards if you think about what
we were doing in terms of Technology and communication at that particular time.
James: Computer cards?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Computer cards. So you know sometimes maybe when you went through registration you
got a stack of cards, well that's similar to what was happening as far as auto den training was
concerned.
James: Okay all right, but then okay so at this point it's possible then for someone like yourself
who's got a college degree or some kind of specialized background to receive a direct
Commission to do for certain kinds of jobs?
Kent: I put everything in okay, now whether I would get it or not, I don't know. My wife was
expecting our first son at that time she was back in Bremen with my parents. So, after I finished
auto den school I was put into a holding company and was put in charge of a platoon, as far as
that company is concerned, so was just kind of doing general-
James: Right.
Kent: -NCO specialists kinds of duties and so forth.
James: Alright, but then the Commission actually does come through.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: So, at the end of June I was commissioned a second lieutenant in the adjutant-general
corps.
James: Alright and so now what happens to you?
Kent: And now I got sent to Fort Ben Harrison for a basic officer training, and went through that
program by that time I had almost a year of enlisted training.
James: Mm-hmm
Kent: So I was in pretty good shape for that physically speaking. Mentally speaking training as
far as first aid CPR all of that kind of good stuff-
James: Okay.
[7:35 - 9:34]
Kent: -that you generally get in officer basic school.
James: Okay I guess one usually thinks of Officer Basic as being in places like Fort Benning
and and so forth. Harrison's like a finance Institute.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: So the adjutant general school is there and finance was there.
James: Okay. So, do you think you've got a somewhat less physically intense officer training
than you would get if you were doing infantry or anything?
Kent: Why... I think it was probably more akin to my background and therefore felt more
comfortable with it. I don't- I'm not really a combat person as we'll see and got into Civil Affairs.
So to me, it was like going back to school yeah I mean-
James: Great.
Kent: -I enjoyed it. You were in the barracks, you had a room by yourself, you were treated like
a junior officer, I enjoyed it. I could have stayed there for the same time I spent in college.
James: Alright, and what were you actually learning there.
Kent: Doing different kinds of things that person. Pretty much adjutant-general kind of stuff
which would be paperwork, which would be awards, which would be personnel actions, things of
that nature from an administrative perspective. So that was very comfortable
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Okay so this is specifically officer training for adjutants.
Kent: You still had weapons qualification and some general training-
James: Mm-hmm
Kent: -but that was just kind of redundant and repetitive of what I had earlier as an enlisted
person.
James: Right. Okay, and how long were you there.
Kent: Ooh... Probably about 12 weeks, and from there I went to be a second lieutenant at the
Athey station in Little Rock Arkansas, and that's the Armed Forces entrance and induction
station.
James: Okay.
[9:35 - 11:16]
Kent: So now I got to see where I came through in Detroit and what got me there. And I was the
psychological examiner at the Athey station in Little Rock Arkansas.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Alright so what does that job actually consist of?
Kent: So anybody that was being drafted or was being that that was volunteering came through
the Armed Forces entrance and examination station. And part of that was the ASFA, the battery
in terms of aptitude and maybe the identification of what was going to be best for you in a draft
kind of way. Or, if you were enlisted you were kind of talked into a particular MOS, so we did the
aptitude part of that, and if somebody was struggling with that then I had to do a reading test
and interview and determine whether the person was fit or not for it as far as being drafted or
volunteering for the service.
James: Alright and how long were you there?
Kent: I was there almost a year?
James: Okay, now did you like that job or…?
Kent: I did like that job, and we were the little of the Little Rock Air Force Station. Which was
outside of town. I ran and I knew the dictionary of Occupational titles as far as titles were
concerned. But, one of the fellows that I didn't approve for being a volunteer was somebody that
came out of the Ozarks and could not read and desperately wanted to be in. So, we went
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
through that his occupation was really chicken catcher. So he at night would go in and take the
chickens off the roost put him into the cage and some of those 18 wheelers you saw with
multiple chicken cages was indeed he was doing that, that was in the dictionary of Occupational
titles. And I said “I just can't let you join the service because your lack of reading skills and what
the service was looking for and so forth,’ and at that time there was a marine captain who had
recruited this particular individual and he locked my heels at the door one day and said, “You
know how dare you lieutenant not accept my recruit,” and I stood by it I still said, “You know this
was not doing the individual any good and was not gonna do this service any good and so
forth.” That led to when I left my first Arcom medal at that particular place so I had a good group
of couple college students who were working with me as far as the testing is concerned. The
interviewing is concerned, and everything like that. I enjoyed it because it kind of tied in some of
my counseling my assessment kind of things that I had learned while I was in graduate school
and so forth I would have stayed there.
James: Alright so what did you get to do next.
Kent: Well then I got sent to Vietnam okay, and therefore I went down to Fort Polk for RVN
training for about a week.
[11:17 - 14:27]
[Unintelligible]
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Excuse me?
James: What did that consist of?
Kent: Well that consisted of more what you could expect to find as far as being in Vietnam and
that would be things like booby traps, watching for booby traps, living in a jungle kind of
situation, and so forth. What's a triple canopy like it's also Louisiana probably hot humid fit that
particular scenario best and that's where the RVN training was at.
James: Did they try to teach you anything about the culture the place or the people or
anything and..
Kent: They don't remember anything about culture to tell you the truth.
James: Because they trained the combat infantry or a lot of it geared toward that.
Kent: So that was definitely military oriented squad work self-defense, Unit defense, unit
aggression, and so forth. Okay, it's strictly military in this case.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Did they march you out into a swamp or field someplace?
Kent: You know we were waiver lieutenants going through that particular training so yeah, we
went out as a unit. But, nothing like basic training and AIT for another person so forth.
James: Alright, now is it on to Vietnam from there?
Kent: On to Vietnam for a year. Arrived in August and left in June arrived in August of 70 and
left in June of 71.
James: Okay, how did they get them out to Vietnam?
Kent: Well you know, I was an individual replacement so I didn't go as a part of the unit.
James: Right.
Kent: …. That’s a good question, I don't remember all together a little bit... a long flight.
James: Most people had to report to someplace on the West coast some, one Depot or another.
[14:28 - 16:04]
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: I went out of the East Coast came into Tan Son Nhut and Long Binh. Long Binh was the
fabricated metal roof shelters that everybody came in to etc. and went through a brief orientation
there, but no training. And then went from there to the 1st Signal Brigade which was actually
located in the Saigon itself.
James: So actually in the city as opposed to...
Kent: In the city.
James: Alright, what kind of facility or compounded did you have?
Kent: It was in a compound, walled compound, right in the middle of things. We did have a high
walled fence that went around it and a set of buildings inside. We ate our meals outside,
probably about 150 200 yards, because it served not only that compound but a couple other
compounds in that area. I remember it being on a major roadway between Tan Son Nhut and
Cholon PX. Why do I remember that? Because it went by the fish market, okay, which had that
very distinct kind of smell to it that I'll remember to this day.
James: And Cholon it's a neighborhood in Saigon proper?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: It it's as you go towards downtown Saigon, right downtown Saigon okay.
James: Alright now what did your duties consist of there?
Kent: Adjutant, so basically I was doing awards, assignments, the support. I was in charge of
the hiring of our Vietnamese that worked within the compound papasans mamasans and so
forth.
James: Alright, now what did they give you. Any kind of orientation or training for that, or did
they just say here you go.
Kent: I did have a major that I reported to so he was my training and kind of a mentor in this
case. Commander was a colonel 1st Signal Brigade in this case had the billboard antennas
scattered throughout the country, and did the long haul communication from country outside of
country or outside of country inside.
James: Now, did you have experience enlisted men working under you who knew what they
were doing?
[16:05 - 18:31]
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: I had enlisted in the assignment section and in the awards section on the same building
and I had a Chief Warrant Officer 3 that was in the personnel assignment that reported to me
and the major at the same time.
James: Alright, and what kind of living quarters did you have?
Kent: We lived in what I call it not a barracks. It was a two-story building standard kind of what
you might find in the Saigon area. I remember the first couple of nights there they gave me a
mosquito netting which was terribly hot. And then sometime later I got an individual room that
had an overhead fan and while that was great because it kept the mosquitoes off you and gave
a little bit of air movement so my quarters were pretty good. There was an officer's room where
you could go in the evening and there was an NCO club we didn't go to but the NCOs could go
to. Wasn't a whole lot to do within the compound other than work. I mean at best you maybe
had a half day off during the week to get your laundry done or something of that nature. The
best trips were outside of their to Tan Son Nhut for a breakfast on a Sunday morning or
something like that and probably had the best Western omelet that I could think of at an Air
Force mess.
James: Alright, and would you go into Saigon proper much?.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: I had to go to the Cholon PX to pick up the piastre to pay for the mamasan's the papasans
and so forth. So once a week I was going down there.
James: Where were you allowed or able to go to restaurants or other things like that?
Kent: I did some of that I signed up for a Vietnamese class but I didn't have the time to pursue it
beyond that picked up a few things I had to go along with that and outside the compound yeah
there were some restaurants where you could get a Vietnamese kind of meal and go from there
I did make some trip into VungTau and other areas because we had small detachments that
supported the billboards that were located in the different provinces but I didn't get up to I Corps
didn't get up to second Corps did get down to the Delta a couple times.
James: okay and when you did travel around how did you travel.
Kent: Basically by Jeep except I made a pay run was in a lush two seater low flying craft we
skimmed over the treetops etc.
James: Alright did you have a sense that it was relatively safe to drive around the areas that you
were in.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
[18:32 - 21:23]
Kent: Pretty safe because I was always out during the daytime never out during the nighttime
we could hear the bombs being dropped as far as the b-52s were concerned I mean yeah the
windows would rattle a little bit etc. but I mean other than somebody's shooting over the wall or
through the razor wire felt pretty secure in terms of where we're at so I was very fortunate.
James: Okay now did you have were there rules about sort of where you could go and not go in
Saigon or what kinds of things you could do or not do?
Kent: Safety was always emphasized always going out with another person at that time we had
the Jeeps with the open doors nothing like what we had in Saudi Arabia or anything like that
traffic was always an issue bicycles cyclos and so forth so you had to be careful in that sense
there were the opportunist that would kind of fake an accident if you weren't careful which then
brought the MPS and an investigation and some things like that so you always traveled with
somebody else as far as the vehicle is concerned okay.
James: Mm-hmm, alright. And we're there because the amount of the enlisted were there issues
involving things like drug use or.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: I didn't notice it that much and I don't think I noticed that that much among the combat
troops but certainly in the support sectors were people who were behind in a safe area bored
and being rampant heat being high and everything like that is where I saw some of the drugs
begin to make their encroachment in terms of soldier boredom and so forth. We were pretty
much a male organization at that particular time so didn't see some of the things that we
encountered as far as Desert Storm is concerned okay.
James: But there would have been prostitution and so forth.
Kent: Yeah-
James: -in the city and that kind of thing.
Kent: Yes, right outside the gate to the compound.
James: Now was your compound sort of just for a single brigade or…?
Kent: Just for the First Signal Brigade.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Okay and so you may have had a little bit more select group than you'd have in some of
the bigger bases or…?
Kent: I think probably so certainly as far as Long Binh was huge.
[21:24 - 23:56]
James: Okay alright. Now, did you have any kind of sense from where you were about how the
larger world was going? I mean were we successful as far as you could tell?
Kent: Well we didn't have access to CNN or anything like that that we had in Desert Storm. I
mean it's pretty much mail communication that we had at that particular time. I don't even
remember calling home when I was in Saigon and Vietnam.
James: But there were- but I guess from where you were there might be people who actually
have some idea what was actually happening in the war at the top?
Kent: Stars and Stripes was the primary means of communication.
James: Okay and you would have been there I guess when the Cambodian incursion was going
on?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: 70, 71, so that was after Tet Offensive. Yes 68.
James: But Cambodia was set was mid nineteen seventy so.
Kent: Yeah.
James: I mean if there after that had happened.
Kent: The Ho Chi Minh Trail one, never knew where that went. Yeah, I mean it was supposed to
be in Vietnam but no it crossed the border and got in Laos got into Cambodia etc. So we heard
those kinds of stories but really didn't see anything in print.
James: Because I guess that was the big news item of 1970 was American and South
Vietnamese actually going into Cambodia to try to chase out the North Vietnamese bases. But,
so basically that kind of stuff news from the fighting or whatever was not really-
Kent: Other than what you picked up to the Stars and Stripes or something like that.
James: -Circulated where you were. Alright.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Well we were yeah we were aware of the body count, I mean Vietnam was the body count
was in terms of success okay. So yes aware of that particular measurement as far as success
lack of success so forth.
[23:57 - 25:49]
James: And then did you have any- this is also a period of Vietnamization that is the Americans
were trying to kind of turn more to let South Vietnamese, and did that- was that anything that
you noticed?
Kent: My awareness where the montagnards were terribly helpful to us in terms of the higher
elevations etc. Certainly up in I Corps and II Corps. Vietnamization we're- we're aware of the
politics that was help happening as far as the Saigon government is concerned sometimes
successful sometimes not successful, I think we can say the same thing that's- that's happening
in Afghanistan right now. I mean depending on who you talk to what successful was working
well and you could talk to somebody a day later and say, “you know motivation was slow
couldn't depend on it,” in spite of what we were doing in terms of training and everything like
that.
James: Mm-hmm. Did you have any sense that that sooner or later this whole thing was gonna
go bust, or did you think that situation would kind of go on indefinitely?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: I think most of those who went to Vietnam felt that we went there with a purpose. We
didn't go to Canada or anything like that, we were ordered to go there went there with the intent
of doing the best job that we could possibly do, and felt certainly as you interacted with the
Vietnamese the papasans the mamasans and so forth okay that we were there protecting the
people in terms of North Vietnam and so forth. I mean the black pajamas yeah, we were familiar
with that, we didn't really encounter that we're aware that some of that was going on and so
forth okay. My Lai was not prominent I really learned about My Lai when I came back then- then
when I was there.
James: Alright so basically for you it was simply an assignment you were in the army. You went
there, you did your job, you put in your- you do a full 12 months there?
Kent: Did a full 12 months.
James: Alright did you get an R&R at any point while you were there?
Kent: I had an R&R; but didn't have my wife come over. I went to Australia and actually took a
train up to the Blue Mountains. Stayed with a family, saw Sydney. So it was positive for me
okay.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Totally different experience for a while.
Kent: Yes.
James: Alright so now when you come back then from Vietnam…
[25:50 - 28:29]
Kent: Then I experienced the culture in terms of what's going on back here and so forth. Literally
said, “I wanted nothing to do with this,” had my opportunity to go from a first lieutenant to a
captain. No, the culture was such was negative, not supportive. Higher education certainly
wasn't supportive of it okay. Came back and got a job with Indiana University at South Bend in
71.
James: So did you leave the military entirely?
Kent: I left it entirely.
James: Okay.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Hung my- hung my uniform up. I mean I had the experience coming back through
Oakland and that's what it really began to hit me.
James: So what did you see there? What happens when you get back? Did you land at the
military base and then go to the airport or…?
Kent: So I was- came, landed in Oakland. Was put in a very small room. I just remember is
almost the size of a closet, and you gonna be wondering, you know, when you've got to leave
this place. It was not the place to leave at that particular time because of the culture the anger
and everything like that. So, I just stayed at Oakland base until I caught a plane. I caught a
plane back came through Chicago. I ended up in in Traverse City because that's where my wife
was with her mother and father at that particular time. She moved from Bremen Indiana up to
that area. I was terribly tanned, terribly dark had a mustache. If you would have hung a number
on the front of me you know, you would have guessed I was a criminal someplace.
James: Alright now were you in civilian clothes at this point?
Kent: I was in civilian clothes and I remember looking at my son and he broke out crying
because he didn't know who the hell this stranger was etc. Okay, so that kind of added to my
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
feelings of kind of alienation and discomfort I guess, and coming back and deciding, “I didn't
want to have anything to do with the military.”
James: Alright so then you said you took a job?
[28:30 - 30:36]
Kent: IU South Bend with the Division of Education because I had that educational kind of
background. Alton ruff, the director of the division of education at that time, came from my
particular area. It was kind of the networking that got me started there I absolutely loved it. I
think I made $12,000 a year, realized it was gonna be difficult to support a family of two at that
particular time, and said okay. About a year later I need to look at a second job and look at a
USAR Center or I could go back in as an instructor at Kingsbury Indiana near the Laporte. So,
about a year later, I did get back in as a USAR Instructor for Kingsbury.
James: They are on reserve?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Yep.
James: Alright.
Kent: So, we got back into the reserves for economical purposes and I was doing again
something that I enjoyed doing something was teaching.
James: Alright now was this a job switch or just a second job added on?
Kent: Well kind of instructor, kind of like adjutant-general working with people.
James: Was that a full-time job though I guess?
Kent: No that was an army reserve, because my full-time job was with IU South Bend.
James: Okay, so you still had it so you’ll be here while you're reservist, like the other ones. It's
sort of the weekend a version of the weekend work other thing.
Kent: Yep. Stayed there for one year and then heard about the Civil Affairs Unit in Kalamazoo
Michigan and made the transfer.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Alright, now explain a little bit what that particular unit is.
[30:37 - 32:12]
Kent: Civil Affairs is, if you remember World War two, they provided the liaison the connecting
link with the military with the government with finance with education etc. I mean they were the
link between the military and we now call it host nation okay. So I saw a health team, I saw a
law enforcement team, I saw an education team, I saw an economics kind of team. I said,
“wow,” and about 40% were officers that particular company was commanded by a lieutenant
colonel so there was about 42% officers, senior enlisted and even the senior listed were well
educated and semi-professional professional people so, I saw a networking opportunity. I just
absolutely loved the unit okay. I mean I could see a veterinarian if the- if our dog was having a
problem. I can go talk to the captain. I can talk to the commander, excuse me, the- the director
of police forces in Western Michigan (okay) at Kalamazoo. I mean this was a neat unit okay. So
I loved it and worked myself up to in 90. In 90 I became the company commander and served
my three years there and I remember in November going down and now I have to look for
another position because I had homesteaded there for a long time okay. Where most people
move around from one unit to another unit to advance more quickly and everything like that. So
I managed to stay there through a number of different positions. Finally had to leave and heard
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
about the 21st TACOM, TACOM down in Indianapolis Indiana and they were aligned with a 21st
in Germany at Kaiserslautern. So their annual training would be to fall in in Germany. Whoa
said, “this is a great chance to travel and everything like that,” okay. For two years event two
summers two weeks of annual training in the summer and so forth. So I became their director
assistant chief of staff for host nation support the21st TACOM. I went in and interviewed in
November just a little bit before Thanksgiving and I remember on December 2nd or something
like that they gave me a call. I was sitting at my desk at IU South Bend and they said, “oh by the
way what is your interest in getting into the unit because we're going to be mobilized for the Gulf
War.” I said, “well I interviewed I said I was interested if you get mobilized I will go with the unit,”
and I did on December 4th. They were mobilized in 1990.
James: Ok I just want to back up a little bit. When you were talking about being with a civil
affairs unit I think you were mentioning dates in the 90’s. So you would have met dates in the
eighties or 70’s so when I got back in 70.
Kent: So 72 to 90 I was in the field civil affairs company.
James: Ok now during the time when you were with the civil affairs company did they ever send
you any place, or did you do training in any place?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: That's an interesting question. Yes, I think our first training was to an Indian Reservation
in northern Michigan and we were staying in a school that was our housing facility. And then
working on the reservation and doing different things with Indians. I mean it could be a
construction kind of thing. It could be a- an educational kind of thing and so forth and absolutely
loved it again ok. I mean how can you go wrong with something like this. Now, also during that
time the 315th SIL Affairs company was aligned to support reforger kinds of activities and
events return of forces to Germany and during that time. Even before I got into the taycom I had
spent two weeks of annual training in Belgium and the Netherlands and in Germany which then
supported my going with the taycom which was also totally co-located with the unit and
Kaiserslautern so again thoroughly. I mean how can you get better two weeks of training. So
when I was working at IUSB I was either traveling for weekend training to Kalamazoo and when
I changed to Indianapolis I just went south the other direction and was still doing a similar kind
of thing in terms of civil affairs work.
[32:13 - 37:17]
James: Right okay, but basically during this, that extended period, you're just never mobilized or
anything like that because they didn't have any actual Wars going on.
Kent: That's right.
James: At that particular point but then…?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: But during the Gulf War I met some of my peers out of the 315th that were mobilized, and
over in Gulf War. In fact I ran across them in Kuwait City because they were brought in via
another route and I was then working with a 21st taycom, and Nicholas Batch Lieutenant
Colonel Nicholas Batch it was a law professor at Western Michigan. A great friend of mine that I
stayed in contact with, and I met him over at the airport in Kuwait because he was there with the
415 not to 315 415 civil affairs company.
James: Alright just back around your story here. So essentially, so you join your new unit and
“oh by the way we're being mobilized.” So it's the end of 1990 and find that out okay. I kind of
pick up the story then from there so…
Kent: So we were mobilized on the 4th of December. Spent two weeks of training at home
station again Went through weapons qualification,, got a well started personnel records were
updated Did our CPR first aid training, got equipment issued to you, n-b-c equipment. Got all the
training as far as masking and everything like that. so that you were prepared for that. We didn't
take a lot of equipment with us other than personal equipment okay, and we were in- had an
advance party go over two weeks in advance of Christmas and we basically arrived about a day
before Christmas, the 25th of December.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Alright and how do they get you out there?
Kent: We went from there to Ohio, from Ohio and out to Fort Dix, the East Coast East Coast up
through Iceland, dropped in to Spain, and from Spain then into Saudi Arabia.
James: Okay.
Kent: I see 130.
James: Alright, so military alright, and then what's your first impression then of Saudi Arabia
when you get there?
[37:18 - 39:45]
Kent: Hot. We landed at night at Dharan air base, which is probably about 15 kilometers from
where the 21st TACOM was working out of at that particular time. We were put- they had some
makeshift accommodations. Actually, they had brought in some trailers so they had- they had
five lieutenant colonels in one trailer and there was a restroom in the middle and three on one in
and two of the other and I said, “ well this is kind of crowded on this and I wonder why there's
three of us here and as vs 2 there.” Well I found out the day after Christmas that I was going to
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
go full.. So you know I was kind of the excess person with all the other Lieutenant Colonels on
that end of the trailer. After that, the trailer was traded for Khobar towers. Which is a high-rise
complex that most of the unit went into after that, and then they started putting some Kuwaiti
refugees into the trailer complex that we had so, I didn't have bad accommodations again I
wasn't living in a tent okay.
James: So were you there when the Iraqis were launching Scud missiles?
Kent: So by that time I was up at KKMC: King Khalid Military City, off of what we call Tapline
Road that kind of ran from east to west also known as MSR main supply route Dodge. It was the
road that was used to really build King Khalid Military City. King Khalid is an interesting complex
and it sits right out in the middle of the desert about 40 klicks south of Hafra-bat, which was the
main city in that particular area. Now the US engineers have the ingenuity starting in about
1974, the Saudi started looking to develop some military complexes and King Khalad Military
City was one of three, the other one was in Tabuk which is toward Jordan in the north western
part of Saudi Arabia, and one was way down south and then this one KKMC, King Khalid
Military City. King Khalid Military City had the second largest cement plant in the world. It's in the
shape of a hexagon, an elaborate structure, that was designed to support at least a brigade
from the Saudis. Actually, some would say it would hold up to three brigades. In the shape of a
hexagon underground parking, okay, had actually a hotel complex that was about four stories
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
stories high and we were in some barracks that were four to five stories high and much like a
college dorm and we had three of us to a room again. It was in the shape of figure eight, little
courtyards in the middle of that, and several of those. So the Saudi army was in that until we
deployed and they went to the field because now in August, when the Iraqis invaded Kuwait,
that now brought a brigade from Tabuk and a brigade from down south to be on the front line
with Iraq at that time. And it also took the brigade out of KKMC and put ‘em on the front line so
the barracks was empty, and that's how we managed to get in there on the day after Christmas.
James: And now what- what is your unit expecting to do?
[39:46 - 43:43]
Kent: So we’re the liaison okay. I was assistant chief of staff northern province for host nation
support. So I would liaison with General Pagones, who was the commander, then the 22nd
Support Command we went from the 21st to the 22nd in country. Okay he was a two-star in
charge of that he was promoted to a three-star Lieutenant General by Schwarzkopf January so
that he could compete and work with the two corps commanders, which was the 18thAairborne
and the 7th Corps. So by that by the time that we got there in December pretty much the 18th
Airborne was in and he was on the verge of being promoted at that particular time. The air war
started what January 16th and we were in the midst of moving the 7th Corps and at that point,
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
ok, and his main headquarters was out of Dahran. The major port was Demam, an excellent
deepwater port etc. and General Pagones said, “you know I was there a couple of weeks after
Iraq invaded on the 2nd of August,” and he told the story of operating out of the back end of a
car ready. Actually cash in his trunk, because he had about seven guys working with him, and
they brought the 18th airborne in before they brought the support. So he was well behind the
power curve in terms of support, so I was his forward up at KKMC for a host nation support. The
main was still back at Dahran and I went up there with myself and two other people. We
eventually had some more civil affairs support from the 304th. See, a group and my cell got up
to 17 people in working all host nation issue. So what's the host nation issue? Well if you want
to come up with a logistics base in the desert you had to ask for that land you just getting
couldn't go out and start parking there and start developing your support base. So we got into all
kinds of things firing ranges, log bases, Concord support centers. Actually using the main supply
routes etc. and back to KKMC. KKMC is about 18 square miles had its own airport brigade-size
well-developed was called the Emerald City because it had a fountain right in the center of it
okay. Had a hotel there, had five Mosques there, had three swimming pools there, and had
eight wells. Now the well our engineers could go down 200 feet and tap a well. The well at
KKMC was 2,000 feet deep huge, about eight inch diameter et cetera. So that's where the water
came from to support the 18th Airborne Corps the 7th Corps et cetera it was the logistics hub
with log base Bravo at KKMC.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Now did you have Saudi counterparts to go?
Kent: Yes, oh yes. Two-star General Al-Kemy. General Al-Kemy was the commander one star
brigadier-general Shaheri was the operations guy one star Abdul Momen was the cut of the s-1
equivalent so we had the s3 the s4 the commander and the s-1 that was my liaison.
James: Alright, and what were these people like to work with?
[43:44 - 47:50]
Kent: Great, and most have been to school in the u.s. Most spoke English, but all of our
requests for host nations. Host nation support we did about 600 during the period of time that
were- though had to be written in Arabic okay. So, we got the request in English we converted it
to Arabic that was then converted it's submitted to the liaison it then went from alchemy to Abdu
Momen and somebody that had to approve it came back to us in Arabic we then transfer
transferred it into English and then got back to the unit that was making the request so there's a
story there when we first went we had access to a linguist from Special Forces it was there that
lasted about two weeks then I got a good captain that could speak and write Arabic from the
304th civil affairs group that lasted about two weeks and Pagones says Laudeman I need this
captain because he needs to write with the Egyptian Het-Battalion and a Het-Battalion is
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
something can transport an m1 tank from the port up and that was the pressure so to make sure
that that head got down to the port one day run picked up made another run back another day
and then was down for maintenance we put with it captain from the 304th C.A group that was a
linguist that could work with the Egyptians to make sure that that happens so there went my
linguist again okay now I got into a situation where I heard about sergeant Morris Kent Morris he
was a sergeant e5 he was working with a transportation company and the company needed a
four-wheel Jeep Cherokee that I had access to and I needed a linguist so it's probably the best
trade I ever made in my life I got the linguist we started submitting requests to the Saudis again
all right the things you get in to a host nation and support okay.
James: Did you get to keep this one?
Kent: I kept them and we actually put him one of their signs because I had managed to then hire
a third country national from the Sudan that we got cleared and I could put in the office to do the
translation and conversion from the English to the Arabic and submission than the Arabic back
to the English again.
James: Alright, now did the- did you have any problems with the Saudis or were they generally
helpful?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Saudis Ramadan started during this period of time Ramadan is one month of basically
fasting from daylight to sundown and that created some problems for us and because the
Saudis generally would then would spend the evenings with their families and festivities and of
course they got hungry they got a little bit disenchanted during the daytime etc okay were not as
easy to work with their Sunday was technically on Friday so we had to work around that they
also had the five prayer periods during the day we had to work around that we couldn't go over
and talk to our counterparts during that particular time or if we do we do well enough to cool our
heels in the office for a period of time because they went to the prayer session etc . so yeah
there were some some adjustments we had to make one of my favorite sayings was inshallah
God willing so Jonas had a stand up brief in the morning about thirty minutes where all that just
an assistant Chiefs of Staff would indicate what they're working on for the particular day what
the problems were that they saw and so forth very quick he sat down the rest of the stood up
half-hour meeting in the morning and then we had a major sit down during the evening about an
hour and a half PowerPoint slides out the wazoo I had my own and many times during that
briefing I'd say inshallah God willing we will get an answer back and be able to help you out in
terms of what the request was and so forth.
James: Alright but I guess the Saudis as far as you could tell right so happy to have us there
[47:51 - 52:23]
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: they were happy to have us on their time frame though not necessarily the army
timeframe the army timeframe wanted it done right away so one of those was one of the stories
was General Pargonas says Laudeman I heard that the Saudis had some trucks for us that we
might be able to use because we were short of transportation assets and one of my stories the
letters of the that I sent to you was yeah he heard about that so I said a Lottermen I want you to
go over and check with the general Sharia and I hear there's some trucks that might be
available to help us out because we were short I mean we had the Egyptian Ha-Battalion then
we sent the linguist with to make sure that they were working in a regular kind of way getting all
the tanks and tracks up and everything like that so I said sir follow up on it so I went over the
next day I talked to general shahuri and he says yeah I got some trucks throughout the desert
for you and he wrote me out an order he put it in the envelope and put a wax seal on it okay so
I couldn't see what it was in it was in Arabic anyhow he did that on the morning so that day we
left and headed to the desert I took Kent Morris with me he was my linguist and we thought we
knew where we were going we’re gonna go about 20 klicks this way turn left go another clicks
20 klicks see beside the road there was this tire that was in the sand at that point we were
supposed to turn right and go another couple clicks well we did that to the best of our
knowledge we came upon a Syrian camp interesting the Syrians were some of the support
forces that were part of the coalition forces there and we asked about a truck parked in the
desert we were told there's 800 trucks here well you would think that you could be able to see
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
that you know the desert was flat except for a curb down you lost sight of it okay we didn't think
it'd be that hard so the Syrians said you know go couple clicks this way and and see if you can I
think it's located there I think we ran across or something well we went two clicks and there was
an Egyptian unit there because there were Egyptian forces there too helping us out okay they
said well no we think it's over this way about to more Clicks so we went a couple more clicks
finally we ran into a compound and we were looking for a Colonel Nasser at that time now
Colonel Nasser is like Colonel Bob I mean the names you know they never used last name they
used first name so Colonel Nasser we went through barbed wire Concertina and there was a
single building sitting there probably about a 10 feet by 10 feet and with a couple of vehicles
parked outside and Constantine around the outside and there was a guard so he let us in we
parked and we went in we went to the basement here's Colonel Nasser he was watching TV
and happened to be a cartoon now there are two channels a religious channel and a cartoon
channel but he was watching the cartoon channel at that particular time he took the envelope
and gave us some shy some green coffee okay or tea had to start out with that first looked at it
and he called the captain of Gandhi and said picked it up on his phone and said captain Gandhi
come up here I want you to meet a couple of guys he came up there in about 20 minutes had
some more tea okay Galla, Shy and so forth and he says I'm gonna take you to the truck park
so we went another three kilometers into the desert and we saw some tanker trucks first and
said we're getting close and beyond the tanker trucks there was this big high burn that they had
wall dirt up around common defensive kind of perimeter etc and inside he took us in there and
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
sure enough there was this truck farm okay so we struck a deal to get 490 trucks some were we
were really looking for 18-wheelers flatbeds.
James: Mm-hmm.
[52:24 - 56:33]
Kent: to haul heavy equipment we got about 90 of those with sides about another 90 with
outsides and another a hundred and eighty or so which were straight trucks they were actually
called circus trucks because they were painted all different colors and had sides all around and
said okay we'll take the 480 trucks and he said oh by the way a hundred eighty these trucks
come with drivers so you're going to need to come back tomorrow with your transportation
people and pick up the trucks but bring along somebody else that can be the commander of the
one hundred and eighty drivers that have their own trucks and we did that the next day.
James: Where did you find the people to drive the trucks?
Kent: well it came from the transportation companies that were located in and around KKMC
because hey we were about 25,000 Strong both the Dahran, Demam and up there okay by that
time and we brought a company commander that was going to take charge of this 180 trucks
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
with drivers all third country nationals he picked them up he took him back about a month later I
saw him and he says can't don't ever do this to me again and here are the issues they came
with their own little stoves prayer rugs and so forth okay and the first thing he learned is that he
had to support them with meals well he had this morning support he had to sort out any MREs
with pork in it that makes perfect sense okay but he said you know we worked through that but
one day I didn't get them the necessary oil that they they needed and all of a sudden they pulled
their own oil plugs and drained everything out in the sand and couldn't couldn't do anything
couldn't make the well a mail delivery couldn't make the water delivery couldn't move some of
the small ammunition that we had on pallets and so forth I mean he came to a dead stop until
they got oil and that's just the way it worked so he got his trucks but he also got a headache of
problems at the same time.
James: Alright now as all of this stuff is kind of going on are you kind of paying attention to any
of the build-up toward having an actual war.
Kent: oh yes so we had access to CNN unlike Vietnam I mean we could actually see what was
being reported back stateside etc so we could tune in we were very on top of it we had the Stars
and Stripes and we also had access to a Saudi paper that was in English okay so we can see
what the Saudis were saying at the same time I was surprised because the Saudi headquarters
asked for CNN if they could have access to CNN and we sent over a female signal sergeant to
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
install it which was kind of a no-no I mean females driving trucks wearing t-shirts in Saudi Arabia
etc was a no-no culturally speaking but again the officers etc over there were pretty much
accepting because they'd been stateside they speak English and so forth all right so yes we had
more access to what was happening certainly in the Gulf War we know when the air war was
starting and we knew what was happening with the air war we know when the blues brothers
were being dropped we know when the daisy cutter' is being dropped and the thing that we
started watching in those hour-and-a-half briefings at night was the available of heat rounds for
artillery those rounds were important because they were going to penetrate the t-62s the 72s
the 52 s etc. and we're ready to go we could see that nightly but as that got up then we knew
that we're going to be close to the launch of the ground war on February 24th.
[56:34 - 60:44]
James: Alright and now wet as the ground war starts or the immediate build-up mean what
happens with you or what are you doing?
Kent: we're still filling all these requests whatever the requests might be all right and we saw
request for barrier material I mean we had this big cement plant and there were slabs of cement
there left from the construction and everything like that but the Saudis weren't willing to give that
up okay and in spite of the thing you would think that with sand you could take an entrenching
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
tool dig a foxhole it was very hard underneath that sand so we were engaged in getting Saudi
equipment back holds bulldozers anything like that that would help the units that were located
either within KKMC itself or even on the outside of that I mean everybody was fearing a threat at
that particular time and I wanted to do as much barrier developing as they possibly could so we
were engaged in all that stuff.
James: In your story now to the point where the attack or the…
Kent: So we could see the ground war was imminent and we had the briefing that we could
follow and see what Schwarzkopf and other commanders down at Riyadh were kind of thinking
we got good feedback on the air war that had started on what January 16th we knew that they
were bombing deep and now we could see those targets beginning to come closer and closer
and so forth okay and we were starting to get some inclinations that there were some desertions
that were happening okay about 35 Iraqis were showing up here and there now that led to
another issue in EPW camps and all of a sudden we had the 800 MP brigade show up which
then brought okay I need land I equipment for a wall I need razor well I need tenting I need
cooking stuff I need hygiene stuff I mean that just started a whole doubt huge of needs that we
turned to the Saudis to try to help them out because they didn't bring it with him so we were just
in perpetually we were just one issue after another issue depending on what was happening at
the particular time.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Okay and then what happens? Then when the ground war actually begin.
Kent: So now the ground war starts okay and now we realize wow it's a million meals a day to
keep this going it's six million gallons of jp4 and diesel and Bo gas to keep this going it's
ammunition are we going to get it there quick enough it's the unit with the right hook the air
board is going a hundred kilometers 160 kilometers in a day and all of a sudden we got log
[60:45 - 63:53]
bases far forward but is it going to be able to reach okay the unit's now that are moving that fast
so it's a rush to move everything forward water fuel food are we're gonna need replacement
parts I mean if we don't have to worry about barrier material anymore cuz we're moving so
damn fast okay we don't even have to think about that but now now what are you gonna do with
the dead we had a grave battalion that was located at KKMC graves and registration battalion
and here's a side bar we didn't know how many casualties were going to have I mean this was
the mother of all wars this is 500,000 Iraqis on one side and almost 200,000 combat but
500,000 on the other side that's going to clash at where we've got these trenches dug and oil
that's there and everything like that okay and what are we going to do with casualties and are
we prepared for the casualties and all of a sudden the Saudis come online and said what are we
going to do with Iraqi casualties because we have a tremendous responsibility for our own
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
casualties and how it works from the company back to the battalion to the division to the Corps
and out of country and a KKMC the great Battalion was out of country as soon as possible that
is a primary mission and a core value as far as the u.s. is concerned so we pray we try to press
that upon the Saudis what are we going to do with the Iraqi casualties okay whether it's in Iraq
across the line perhaps perhaps in Saudi Arabia where we gonna have to take care of and so
forth so we come up we've got to come up with a equivalent kind of Saudi company with some
platoons to do that so in about two days we're working that with the Saudis they took a band
unit of Saudis and converted it to a platoon of Saudis okay now you got to have the trucks you
gotta have the back hose you got to have the wipe wrapping material what are you going to do
and so forth and we were making great progress we were ready to launch that group and all of a
sudden Saudis say hey I can't cross the line between our country and Iraq and we don't
necessarily want to bury them because they've feared that the Iraqis would find them and make
it an incident etc okay so we have that great fear hanging over a head as well as we had three
evacuation hospitals locator to KKMC the Emerald City was such it had an eight-story hospital
so the three evac’s were located all around it using the resources there etc. I mean this was
huge this is a mother of all battles that was going to happen on about a 300 mile front here right
in front of us not more than sixty to a hundred kilometers from us so we have all of those things
that we were working through okay ground war okay we're going the AirCam pen is damaged as
much as it can we've seen it we've watched it we see it's getting closer and closer EPW’s start
to show up we got the 800th MP brigade in here the start and develop forty five thousand
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
EPW’s is expected over around KKMC and also further to the west now we got to start thinking
about refugee camps okay because all of a sudden we've got deserters beginning to show up
so that's huge on top of the supply mission and we're working all of this to the best of our
capability at that particular time so we launch now we got to keep the fuel going the water going
and everything like that okay we had probably a hundred buses from the Saudis because to
move the troops forward they didn't have enough military assets on their own we brought only
one bus back after the brown war because they had ground them into the sand and everything
that was going forward okay was designed now to bring back our own casualties as necessary
but all of a sudden we had all these EPW’s that we're being brought back on anything that was
a supply
[63:54 - 68:46]
nature where we took the flatbed forward with the ammunition and everything like that well
they're coming back empty okay but now hey we had EPW just corralled in the sand in the
desert and a couple of soldiers watching over them waiting to be picked up I mean that's what
was happening behind the battle lines in that particular time there was always something going
on that needed attention and support as much as we could get from the Saudis the Saudis
basically paid for everything in country we had to keep track of it though okay all those buses all
those trucks ect. They paid for now the trucks where did the trucks come from they were all
consigned for by the Saudis so they moved the coalition forces first and they were then sitting in
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
the truck farm and that's why they were offered to the US because we were late coming into the
theater with a 7th Corps and trying to move supplies forward ok but they're all contracted and
that 180 they were privately owned by the the third country national driver of that particular truck
so in spite of everything you know looking like a war it was still contracting payments and
everything like that going on at the same time. Did I lose you?
James: No, No. So the shooting war only lasted a few days.
Kent: So 100 our war okay now now we have the problem in Basra with the Shiites ok fearing
Sunnis and Saddam ect. Okay and now we had refugee needs that were starting to develop
okay and the next thing that was happening after the 100-hour war we put the tents up at
Southwind when Schwartzkopf went up there to negotiate the end to it etc okay provided the
security for it so some more logistics kinds of things happening okay so now the 100-hour war
ends we're trying to stabilize things in southern Iraq with the 1st armored division the first
entered division etc ok and as things begin to quiet down now what happens it's Katie bar the
door because the US wants to get at soldiers home so redeployment becomes our top issue
and at the same time that that's happening we have the issue happening with the Kurds way up
north so now we're flying some of that supplies tentage water MRI’s okay that we didn't use we
build up about 45 days worth of supply we use three days worth or a hundred hours worth and
now we're starting to ship that stuff up to northern Iraq to support the Kurds so we got another
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
logistics mission that's happening at the same time that we're trying to now move the 18th
Airborne Corps out and the seventh Corps out ok so here's another story 1st Armored Division
comes back they got a redeployment area that's 20 by 25 kilometer square huge area before
they can send their equipment to the port they've got to clean it this is U.S agricultural kind of
requirement ok which means you need water you need water you need water you always need
water so what happens in their 20 by 25 kilometer square area they had a Saudi that they had
contracted who had a private well of his own and there was also a well in a small Saudi Vale
that village that had about probably 15 huts in it ok they were more than a hut not a Tin Hunt or
anything like that it was substantial mud and so forth ok so the first Armored Division had
promised to repair the well that had broken remember this is two thousand feet deep ok and in
the meantime he had a private well that was outside the little village and the 1st Armored
Division had sent over some guys to put down a fifty thousand dollar bag and start drawing
[68:47 - 73:24]
water off of it and he got angry because they weren't repairing the well that was part of the deal
ok so all of a sudden Kent Morris and I go out there he's my linguist and we find four guys over
here with ak-47 Saudis and over on this side is four guys with m16s and each claiming the bag
the water etc and the guy saying I'm not gonna pump anymore till you start paying me and the
us saying hey we need it never going to take it so we went out and a day later we cut a contract
for thirty thousand riyals a month it's about eight thousand dollars a month to draw that
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
water okay he started out at a hundred and twenty thousand riyals a month okay the Saudis
knew when they had somebody that they could make some money off oh I mean that was the
bad thing about host nation and contracting is the doggone cost kept going up every time he
went back and he needed more it had doubled it had tripled and we needed to bring the Saudis
in to find out what's a reasonable rate for whatever is involved whether it's water whether it's
fresh fruits and vegetables whether it's bread I mean you lived on MREs for about 30 days and
then you know that was a morale Buster so we had to get the fresh fruit water and everything
like that that we got from the Saudis we got them from the Saudis okay at a cost at a cost.
James: so how long did you wind up spending in Saudi Arabia then?
Kent: I was there too I got back in June and by that time we had brought into into Saudi Arabia
400,000 short tons of ammunition we only used 50,000 short tons so short we had 350,000 tons
to clean up pack up and ship back okay we had firing ranges before we launched the ground
war where they did practice in the desert and there was unexploded ordnance that didn't
explode when they fired at downrange and to this day I know that some camel herder or
bedowin is going to stumble on that blown to hell okay there then we had to bring in the legal
team we had to solve that particular issue pay the amount at etc. I mean during during the buildup we had almost 25 vehicles passing a single point in a minute on Tapline Road which is MSR
Dodge and at one time during the buildup we were losing almost a soldier a day to a traffic
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
accident part of that was due to the inexperienced Saudi drivers they drove like a teenager
excuse me if you were on a two-lane highway and going too slow they’d just cut to the desert
went around okay we didn't have enough MPs to put all over the place so it's a dangerous place
to be and one time the,slogan when the briefing slide was what not one more soldier that we
were losing to a traffic accident because of the high intensity as far as supporting the troops the
two cores are out there plus the British division was out there the French division was out there
coalition forces were out there all using the same two lane highway MSR dodge.
James: Now did things eventually wind down for you or…?
Kent: when I left we were trying to move everything out okay including all the equipment came
in the ammunition that came in and everything like that okay so we're beginning to wane down
it's all coming back to KKMC except we were going to put a brigade size unit in Kuwait so in that
case we were cleaning up the equipment to move it to a new base and that was gonna become
[73:25 - 77:38]
a support base in Kuwait just outside of Kuwait City in the event Saddam decided to do
something again the Shiites that were still in southern Iraq because that hadn't settled down all
together okay so when I left we still had a host nation office that was still working in supporting
the Redeployment in terms of moving equipment out and so forth move the personnel out first
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
then we moved the equipment out etc okay I mean you the ammunition dump that we had you
couldn't even see to the end of it I mean just stacked up and it came in at a pallet but by the
time it came back though came back in vehicles the pallets were broken so it had to be cleaned
up had to be repalletized then reloaded put her on to an 18-wheeler ship back to the port loaded
back up on the ship and taken out again okay we had we had 20-foot and 40-foot containers
stacked double and triple high in the desert okay got in too late.
James: Now, did your unit go out together or did you leave individually or…?
Kent: so we came we had an advance party that came in that was I think about the six strong
early December then the main unit was a hundred and fifty they came in before Christmas and
then we came out in May most of us came out in May early June we left behind though a fairly
sizable cell of about twenty thirty some of those were volunteers that came from other units that
augmented the 21st TACOM that was working with the 22nd because the movement took place
for another year to get stuff out of country so there were some volunteers that stayed well after
that yeah.
James: Alright because yours was a reserve unit and there is an expectation that they get to go
back home.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Yeah we thought we thought it would be over at about two months right I was listening to
this story earlier here in Korea they thought it was gonna be quick well I remember Pagones
getting up on a stage and saying you know you longings are gonna be here in the last out he's
absolutely right.
James: Now did you get into Kuwait yourself?
Kent: I was in Kuwait several times
James: What were you doing there?
Kent: we had in the hospital it's about 300 patients those three M evac hospitals the Iraqis came
across the line because they got hurt and things like that I mean that kept hitting the units all
along so we had a build up of 300 patients in the evac hospitals that was located there KK MC
and we did one bus trip back to softmod which was up through Kuwait and then into southern
Iraq we also did what about 18 Chinook lifts of which about we had about 24 Iraqis each and
[77:39 - 80:43]
getting because the evac Hospital couldn't leave until excuse me the patients were cleared out
some didn't want to go back okay so wanted to claim asylum and so forth that was a whole
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
other issue that we had to work through so yes probably Highway one where a A-10 shot up the
highway and just terrific desert action I mean you could smell that when you drove through there
and I was through there about two days afterwards okay work in that particular area is
devastating I mean the number of vehicles everything that was on the vehicles and everything
like that.
James: now were there also oil fires?
Kent: oh yes yep so you drove through a black region I mean it was just like night so our guys
our guys were exposed to plutonium as far as the ammunition is concerned they were exposed
to pesticides because we used a lot of pesticides in the desert there they were exposed to the
oil fires that were there so I don't know what's going to come out of the Gulf War when we really
start to look at 10 15 years later like we looked at Agent Orange coming out of Vietnam and so
forth okay it's hard to say.
James: and that's independent of any kind of chemical or biological agents the Iraqis might have
had someplace or whatever
Kent: yeah yeah
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: at the same time all right now thought you would talked about you know your being in
Saudi Arabia and so forth and being able to see the news and that kind of stuff did you have
more personal communication with home and you would have in Vietnam
Kent: oh yes I might also share with you I think we left a million dollar telephone bill because we
figured out how we could direct down the home without but now if you were unit in the sand I
mean you had the the phone banks there etc. okay but remember we were inside the Emerald
City okay this is this is a well developed area so personally I knew where I could go to find a
phone and I could direct dial home the only thing I had to watch was the eight hour difference
between home and us now we didn't abuse it but everybody on the team could have to call back
at least once okay so that was much different much different.
James: Alright now when you do leave that what's the physical process of getting out where do
you fly out of and where do you go?
Kent: So KKMC we went back down to Dahran, Dahran we loaded on a plane a civilian plane in
this case it wasn't a c-130 I remember I don't remember where we stopped but we flew directly
in to Indianapolis in this case so not the East Coast not the West Coast I mean family
[80:44 - 83:41]
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
was there waiting when we came in etc and it was Katie bar the door nobody wanted to hang
around the center any longer than you have to just a quick debriefing safety instruction go out
on leave and then come back and you start working on what you need to do as far as reports
are concerned and so forth all right very pleasant.
James: Kind of a contrast to coming back from Vietnam.
Kent: yes the 180 again just a complete different.
James: Okay so what kind of cleanup then did you have to do once you got back you have to
have a lot of worked a lot of paperwork to do?
Kent: Not bad at all because we didn't take any heavy equipment transportation wise over with
us so it's mainly personnel equipment after-action reports doing things of that nature lessons
learned we always had lessons learned I always say lessons forgotten because they got written
down and it seemed like it always came up two years later and said did we just go through this
nut throw but people change and that's what happens they don't necessarily read the afteraction report or the lessons learned or things change in terms of the equipment and everything
like that I mean when we went to Operation Joint Endeavor 95 96 I mean we commuted
communicated by the internet I mean that's how we came through those three different kinds of
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
things I mean that was just that absolutely amazing I was still communicating with IUSB in terms
of my work role via the Internet at that time.
James: So you’re back in 91 then you have… things are relatively quiet for four years?
Kent: For about four years I still at IUSB in 95 the balloon goes up for operation Joint Endeavor
the mobile I the unit gets mobilized again not 150 I want to say about 80 or 90 we fell in on
Kaiserslautern at that particular time and we the main operating base was out of Kaiserslautern
Germany and we had a forward log unit at the end of the rail line in Hungary because we were
now moving stuff out of Germany down to Hungary and then from Hungary on into Serbia
Kosovo etc Croatia okay.
James: So this is all peacekeeping and what used to be Yugoslavia the other support.
Kent: Yeah again a very safe environment long missions now I'm working with the Germans the
Austrians and the Hungarians and a liaison kind of way to make sure the rail lines are open
making sure that we have convoy clearances in terms of moving stuff via the highway and
everything of that nature so again in a very safe kind of environment protective kind of
environment working with the host nation solving problems keeping things moving etc I mean I
couldn't ask for anything better again okay.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
[83:42 - 86:43]
James: Alright were there notable differences between how the Germans Austrians Hungarians
worked or was it fairly seamless?
Kent: W ell the Germans were very well prepared because remember we had reforger and
return of forces to Germany during the Cold War then we had reforger where we moved
everything out of Germany okay the seventh Corps down to Saudi Arabia so a lot of experience
there okay and and prepositioned equipment and Germany and everything like that where we
had nothing pre position as far as the Saudis were concerned so we had that experience
coming out of Germany again in supporting operation Joint Endeavor and the liaison were just
excellent okay I mean they knew the inside and the out the Australian liaison officer know who
to contact to get the convoy clearance if there was any problem along the road and everything
like that again just tremendous professional and personnel in a counterpart kind of way okay at
all military okay but the military knew who would contact in a civilian kind of way.
James: Right. Within Austria or Hungary, was it different there.
Kent: No same thing.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Okay.
Kent: Great liaison again the only thing is in Hungary we jammed so much in terms of the rail
they didn't have time to unload it we backed up the trains when we're starting bad.
James: Now I guess if you and then that's getting right down to the point pretty much where you
rule.
Kent: so 96 I come back third deployment or third combat area not quite so close combat each
one of those times I am at IUSB and IUSB is a little bit unsung with me now they I got pulled out
twice as a professional person there and we all understand the laws and everything like that but
that puts a tremendous strain on the office that you're trying to run and everything like that okay
I kind of felt like I had out warned my welcome there I always refer to myself when I got
mobilized for Desert Storm but I was a closeted reservists most of the professors there the staff
there didn't know that I was participating or anything like that so they were utterly surprised and
I guess that was part of my education is to write the letters home from the Gulf and kind of
educate him a little bit more on what a reservist does when he's mobilized and so forth okay so I
came back in 96 assuming my same job again kind of associate dean for student services and
registrar and I had applied part of that to West Point for registrar's and an assistant dean kind of
position but I didn't make it any place and they hired in person kind of thing I learned later so the
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
second time I said I'm gonna give this another shot but I downplayed my military bio because
the first time I did play my military bio with West Point you'd think that'd be a positive right so I
[86:44 - 89:50]
downplayed that work more on the civilian part of it. Got invited to an interview and they were
pleasantly surprised to hear my military background as I went through the committee and was
shown around and everything like that and that went well I mean in 97 I was headed then in
June to United States Military Academy stayed there for thirteen years and absolutely loved
every year of it okay put me back in higher education again I had the adult student so I had
missed the maturity of the adult student and had pretty much the 18 to 21 year old and some
immaturity I shouldn't say that okay but great students cadets again but a different kind of cadet
okay so I was back working in higher education absolutely loved it again okay teaching
leadership course psych course and so forth and then stayed there for 13 years to 2010.
James: So you're doing that then through 9/11 and through..
Kent: I'm a civilian though I'm a civilian in a military setting okay because I hit my mandatory
retirement date after 28 years so and I hit that the same year 97 that I went to West Point so I
went in as a civilian
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Right so what was the response at West Point to 9/11.
Kent: well that was devastating and I remember sitting at my desk when we saw the first thing
happening on TV and it impacted it impacted many parents that were connected to the towers
and had son or daughter Westland I mean that's where you really felt it but in addition to that a
lot of the firemen and the policemen didn't live in Manhattan proper they lived upstate you know
an hour and a half two hours away because of the cost of living and oh by the way if you're a
policeman or fireman you went down for three shifts you could work the 3 shifts you had a place
to stay you come back to the community etc so some of the local communities really got hit hard
in terms of firemen and policemen so that was a second whammy during 9/11 so it's not only
the Academy but the small community fort Montgomery that we lived in or the surrounding
communities there that we really felt the impact of that and that's where our security went up at
at West Point and all of a sudden you didn't have enough MPs to put on the front gate in an
extended kind of way and so the Dean at one star was out there pulling security at the front gate
we were pulling security there any military was pursuing security civilians helped out kind a way
and I remember the Dean coming back one night and saying boy you never want to be on duty
when the hockey team comes back because their bags are really strong there's a lot of little
stories like that that you know you'd never hear any place else but just kind of humanizes
everything that happens and what happened after 2010 ok I’m on social security by nowI’m
getting older maybe it's time to retire and Diane wanted to come back at that particular time so I
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
came back spent a year we built a new house but the whole Walker lower basement was
undeveloped I said well that's going to be my task for a year so 125 sheets of sheetrock 10 foot
high so forth I have totally immersed myself in that took my lunch back into the basement
worked hard there and I literally flunked retirement I flunked retirement and I was serving on a
[89:51 - End]
committee at at the alcohol addictions and Resource Center in South Bend and I had served on
when I was with IUSB on the board of directors went back I showed my resume there and
Steve Camilleri the executive director for the center of the homeless on my resume and say hey
you know we're opening up a center a 24 bed Center for homeless veterans and he talked me
into that okay so in 2012 I became a 2011 the end of 2011 I became the director of the Robert
Miller Veterans Center for homeless veterans of 24 bed facility and I've been there since almost
5 plus years
James: it was that South Bend
Kent: that's in South Bend.
James: Alright yeah well there are worse ways to flunk retirement I think.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: It keeps me busy, it gets me out of the house I think.
James: Alright well thanks for a pretty remarkable and unusual story. different thank you very
much for taking the time.
Kent: Thank you for what you're doing with veterans okay.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_LaudemanK2133V
Title
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Laudeman, Kent (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Date
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2017-06-20
Description
An account of the resource
Kent Laudeman was born in 1943 in Bremen, Indiana. After graduating high school, he attended college to avoid the draft for seven years, but was eventually drafted into the Army in 1968. He completed both basic and advanced training at Fort Dix, New Jersey, before being sent to Fort Jordan, Georgia, for MLS training and then Fort Ben Harrison for basic officer training. In August of 1970, Laudeman was deployed to Vietnam for only a year. Due to his struggles supporting a family, he went to USAR in Kingsbury as an on-reserve instructor and, at the end of 1990, was called to action in Saudia Arabia in KKMC (King Kalaat Military City). After a year in KKMC, he returned to the states until 1995, when he was brought to Hungary for Project: Joint Endeavor. In 1996, he returned to the United States after his last deployment.
Creator
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Laudeman, Kent
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8594c172309ea1e69f49201101d736f8.mp4
c9e4a9f798dc7bb79ba847665999e62c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1b9e35a3c0bfba4628a8cbd8517fb769.pdf
1101c78e2fd9301735d5f77ae1319c86
PDF Text
Text
Hodges, Terry
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam War
Interviewee’s Name: Terry Hodges
Length of Interview: (58:23)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “Okay, Terry. Begin with some background on yourself. And where and when
were you born?”
I was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. January 1st, 1948.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you grow up in Baton Rouge, or did you move around?”
I spent my whole life in Baton Rouge up until the graduation from high school, and then I went
to college at Hammond, Louisiana at Southeastern Louisiana University.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what did your family do for a living when you were a kid?”
My mother was an executive secretary for the Department of Conservation for the state of
Louisiana. I grew up with three brothers, and we all grew up in our grandfather’s house. My
parents divorced when I was six, and Mother never remarried.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then when did you graduate from high school?”
1966.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then where did you go after that?” (1:00)
I went to—on a football scholarship to Southeastern.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then how long did you stay there?”
I was there three years, and that’s where I was at when I was drafted.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now was it a four year school?”
Oh, yes.
Interviewer: “So you had another year left. So how was it that you came to be drafted?”
I went there on a football scholarship and always wanted a vehicle of my own. So after my junior
year of spring training, I dropped out of school. Went to work. Worked the rest of that spring and
�Hodges, Terry
that summer because I wanted an automobile for my senior year. And worked, made enough
money, bought a car. Used car, but my car. And was actually back at school. Football practice
always started—two a day—on August the fifteenth. And I was there for approximately a week
practicing football and got a draft notice. (2:05)
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what did you do once you got that notice?”
Well, I’d been drafted.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you request an extension or anything, or did you just do what they
told you?”
I just did what I was supposed to do, I guess. Is how I felt about it.
Interviewer: “All right. So where did they send you for basic training?”
I went to basic and advanced infantry training both at Fort Polk, Louisiana.
Interviewer: “Okay, so relatively close to home anyway.”
Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now describe the basic training experience. What was that
like?”
Regimented. Getting up earlier than I was used to getting up. But it wasn’t a bad experience. I
mean, I was physically active all my life, so it wasn’t any kind of physical problem or mental
problem or anything like that. Just went through basic.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. How did the drill instructors treat you?”
Okay. I still recall my drill instructor for our barracks was—Sonny we called him. But he was a
really nice guy. Fairly young fellow. But got along with him fine. As a matter of fact, in basic, I
was one of the guys in—for whatever reason—I was elevated to barracks leader. You know,
platoon leader, what have you.
Interviewer: “Well, you were maybe a year or so older than a lot of the guys there.”
Yes, I was, and I was somewhat more proficient in the athletics of it.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah. I mean, football player, so yeah.”
Yeah, but see, I didn’t realize that that was not a good thing for me at the time. I should have
been saying, “Hey, I love to type,” and things like that. So I wasn’t the brightest bulb on the tree
at that point in time.
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Yeah, but they kind of wanted a lot of infantry men at that point, so I don’t
even know if that would have helped you.”
I agree, I agree.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so you get through it, and how long was the basic training?”
I think it was six weeks. I believe that’s what basic was.
Interviewer: “It’s usually eight.”
Okay, eight weeks. That’s probably—You know.
Interviewer: “Yeah, but not all that long in the whole.” (4:05)
No, no.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then you stay then. And then for your advanced
training, is that infantry training?”
Yes. Yeah. At Fort Polk.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how was the advanced training different from basic?”
Well, weapons were involved. You know, becoming acquainted with the M16 and the .60 caliber
machine gun. Going to firing ranges instead of just going on long walks, so to speak. And, of
course, it was geared toward getting you prepared. Everyone knew that pretty much—that we
were going to be going to Vietnam. So that was the end of ‘67.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Now did they make any effort to teach you how to deal with the
Vietnamese themselves? I mean, do they have a mock village or anything like that?”
I don’t recall that. No, I do not. Now I do recall that we were introduced to a Vietnamese fellow
who was a sapper as they call them, and he was showing off his skills as far as stealth and what
they were capable of doing and so on. I remember that. Other than that…
Interviewer: “But nothing about the society or the people or…?”
Oh, no, no. There was nothing that I recall. It was primarily geared toward, you know, patriotism
and being the best soldier you could and so on.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and just how to function as an infantryman in the field.”
Exactly, exactly. Be the best soldier you could, which would give you the best chance of being
successful.
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were a lot of the instructors Vietnam veterans?”
I believe they were. Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now did you have any sense of who the guys you were
training with—where they were from or why they were there or…?”
They were from all over. There was a large contingency from New York that were in my
barracks. (6:02) But there was a lot of people that were from Louisiana. Palled up with a guy
from Port Allen, which is across the river from Baton Rouge. Ronnie Gisler. We became good
friends. Also met a fellow named Browning. Robert Gwinn Browning who actually ended up in
Vietnam with me. He was my bud, you know. So you make relationships and go through, but we
all kind of enjoyed all of the rappelling and firing weapons and so on.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. So at that point you’re still kind of playing soldier for the most
part.”
Yeah. There was an ominous overtone always, but, well, there was a reality that was there. But, I
mean, I grew up—I was a Boy Scout. Had always spent time in the woods. So it wasn’t that
foreign to me. Some of these guys from New York—It was quite a bit of culture shock for them.
Interviewer: “All right. How much did you know about Vietnam at that point?”
Other than the fact that we’re involved in a very bad—what I thought to be a very stupid war…
Interviewer: “Okay, so you had an understanding that maybe the war wasn’t such a good
idea.”
Oh, I knew for sure it wasn’t a good idea, and I knew for sure that there were people that were
getting killed or maimed that—for what I thought were fairly political reasons. And I’ve always
held that belief. And I always had the realization that once I had got drafted, that, boy, I had
really messed up. And actually my brother—one of my younger brothers—ended up getting my
car. So I did a lot of that for nothing as it turned out.
Interviewer: “All right, so you complete AIT, and that’s probably the same length of time
as the basic was.”
Yes. Yeah, I think so. I think so.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then do you get orders for Vietnam, or do you go
somewhere else first?” (8:01)
No. In typical army fashion, there were—I don’t know—twenty something guys, I think, in the
entire company that had signed up to go to NCOC School at Fort Benning, Georgia. Shake n’
Bake school. And they took thirteen or fourteen of us that had not signed up and sent us. And I
don’t think any of the guys that actually signed up actually went. Got orders to go. And we were
�Hodges, Terry
somewhat apprised of what Shake n’ Bake school was all about and so on. And Ronnie Gisler
from Plaquemine hadn’t signed up as well, but he was sent also. And so we were, of course,
flying out of the same airport. Going to Fort Benning to start Shake n’ Bake school. They flew us
up. We arrived there on base on a Friday, and the school actually started on Monday. So once
you got in and got settled in, they actually gave you a weekend pass. So we went into town and,
of course, do what young men do, you know, in a town you’re not familiar with. We hit all the—
every bar we could and so on. And Ronnie and I both decided that we had no desire to go
through NCOC School. So we reported back in, you know, Saturday evening. Sunday evening.
And the first formation on Monday morning Ronnie and I went up to the attic in the barracks and
hid. And they had the formation. We could hear them. They were right outside in the company
area, and they were looking, you know.“Where’s Hodges? Where’s Gisler?” And everything.
And we were just sitting up there saying, “I ain’t going to do this. I’m not going to do this.” And
so they ended up getting everybody there in formation, and they marched them off. They were
going somewhere, you know. I don’t know. But when they left the area, we came down into the
barracks, went in through the CO’s office, and he said, “Well, y’all missed the first formation,
you know. You’re going to be—It’s not necessarily court-martialed, but you’re going to be
busted. Back to E1.” And he said, “At E1 you can’t go through this school.” (10:17) So we said,
“Mission accomplished.” That was great, you know. But then we got—Shortly after that, we got
orders for Vietnam, which is where we knew we were going to go anyway. So when we got to
Vietnam, we were automatically made E3 again because I don’t think you could be in country
without being at least a PFC.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah. That was a standard thing. Now why did you decide you didn’t
want to do the NCO training?”
What I—What my belief was was that it was a very serious place, and I didn’t think—from
everything I had heard—that NCOC—Shake n’ Bake sergeants weren’t that well thought of.
Didn’t necessarily know exactly what to do. And I didn’t want to be in that position. I just—I felt
if I were going to tell men what to do that I should—I should go through it first, I guess. And I
did not think that a pretend NCOC School would prepare me to do that. I just didn’t—I didn’t
think it was right to show up over there and start telling men what to do when I wasn’t apprised
of what actually was happening. So that’s the reason that Ronnie and I both decided not to go
through it. We were the only two that didn’t go that particular day.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Of course, it was—I think you’re the first people I’ve ever heard of
who were sent to NCO-School when they didn’t actually sign up for it. So that wasn’t a
normal circumstance to be in.”
No, we did not sign up. We did not. We did not.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Did you get a leave home before you went overseas?” (12:01)
A few days, yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. And then—And how do they get you to Vietnam?”
�Hodges, Terry
Flew to—What base was it? I don’t really recall.
Interviewer: “Did you go to Seattle?”
It could have been Fort Lewis.
Interviewer: “Yeah, Fort Lewis, Washington would be—If you went up there, that’s where
you went.”
And then went from there over to Cam Ranh Bay.
Interviewer: “Okay. What’s your first impression of Vietnam when you get there?”
Hot, hot. The day I arrived—Went out on the steel tarmac. It was 114 degrees, and you could see
the heat waves coming off the tarmac. So it was—It was quite warm.
Interviewer: “Even for a man from Louisiana that was a little—”
It was quite warm.
Interviewer: “All right.”
Yeah, it was hot.
Interviewer: “Okay. What did they do with you once you get off the plane?”
You got off the plane with your duffel. Well, you got issued your—you know, your gear and
stuff like that. And then they started calling people’s names and assigned you to a company. I
think I was in Cam Ranh for like two days. Got my orders to report to Delta Company. 1st of the
506.
Interviewer: “Okay. In the 101st Airborne Division.”
101st Airborne, yes.
Interviewer: “All right, and then how did you get up to join them?”
Helicopter to the rear at Camp Evans, and then they later—Helicopter again out to Firebase
Kathyrn.
Interviewer: “All right, and so when was this that you got out there?”
Early June. It was early June.
Interviewer: “Okay. Early June now of 1970. All right, and then when you join your
company, what kind of reception do you get?”
�Hodges, Terry
Cordial. Nice. I mean, people were, you know—They were helpful. Got my first squad leader.
Was Randy Beek who I thought the world of. Really nice guy. Concerned about people. And got
issued a bunch of gear. (14:08) What have you. But the—And then you’ve got to get into the
flow of things. The very first job I was given was to burn a bucket of shit. So that’s the first thing
I did on Kathryn. Was to mix fougasse in with a pile of shit and burn it. That was my first job. I
guess they figure if you’ll do that, then you’ll probably be responsive if they ask you to do
something else.
Interviewer: “Well, yeah, that and you’re the low guy on the totem pole, so you get the ugly
job.”
Exactly, exactly. And you’ve got to realize that.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how long did you stay on Kathyrn before you moved out?”
We weren’t there probably another three or four days, and we rucked up and we’re sticking to
the jungle.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you walk out, or did they fly you someplace else?”
No, they flew us out. They flew us out.
Interviewer: “Okay. Had you ridden in helicopters—except for the trip up?”
No, no.
Interviewer: “Okay. This is all new. And then that first trip out in the field. Do you
remember anything about that?”
No, it was rather uneventful. It took me—When I first stood up with my full gear on, full sack, I
remember I was thinking to myself—And I was in fairly good shape. And I said, “Man, there’s
no way I’m going to be able to walk around with this on my back.” I mean, my legs were
wobbling almost. But by the third day I was hupping with the best of them. As a matter of fact, I
was starting to—I walked point. And I walked point for most of my time over there.
Interviewer: “Okay. Walking point is something a lot of people don’t always want to do.”
I wanted to watch after my own butt. I didn’t want somebody else watching. Plus, it—There’s an
added benefit if you walk point. You don’t have to carry as much ammunition. So there was an
ulterior motive as well.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now you said you had—Growing up, you had spent a lot of
time in the woods and that kind of thing. Did that sort of help you at this point?” (16:03)
�Hodges, Terry
I was acclimated to the woods. Not so much thick jungle, but I had always loved being in the
woods. Became a Life Scout. Always hunted and so on. So I was quite comfortable in the woods.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now at this point, sort of—Now it’s June 1970. Were you
encountering many enemy? Did you have much contact, or was it quiet?”
No, no. Nothing prior to that day. That was the first interaction with an enemy that I had.
Interviewer: “Okay, so before that—And this is getting into the latter part of July when
you’re sent out to the Ripcord area, and your company gets in trouble. So before that,
basically are you just patrolling in the jungle? And how long would you stay out if you’re—
When they take you out, would you be out for a few days or couple weeks or…?”
A few weeks. It got to be the routine that we were out for forty-five days or thereabouts, and then
back in the rear for seven. There were a couple occasions during the monsoons where we stayed
out much longer than forty-five days because they just couldn’t get to us. Everything was socked
in.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so when you’re out there, what would be sort of a typical thing to
do in a day? Were you usually in the jungle areas, or…?”
Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so you have stayed someplace for the night. You get up in
the morning. Now what happens?”
You put your sack on, and they tell you which direction they want to go in that day. And you
start matriculating that day.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now would the company usually operate as a unit, or would you break
down into platoons?”
We would break down into platoons more often than not. (18:00) The company didn’t do
anything that I recall as a single unit going in one, you know—Everybody went in the same
direction, but we were—We weren’t one after the other for 125 men or something like that,
which, I guess, tactically didn’t make any sense.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, I guess the other thing would be were the platoons within
contact of each other and able to support each other.”
Certainly. Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, and so now who was your company commander at
that point?”
Workman.
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Okay, and how would you describe him?”
I didn’t have a whole lot of contact with him. You know, as far as captains go, I guess he was
just fine.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you see more of your platoon leader?”
Yeah. LT Thompson. I thought he was a great guy. He was a great guy.
Interviewer: “Okay, and about how large was your platoon?”
I don’t really know. I really don’t know. We had what? Four squads? Probably ten men per
squad so thereabouts. I didn’t pay attention to a lot of that.
Interviewer: “Well, a lot of times a lot of the units were pretty badly under strength. Now
maybe when you came in, did some other new guys come in with you?”
Oh, yes, yes. I think, as a result of the conflict in May, they were undermanned. So there was—
Yeah, there were several people. Browning and I both were put in the same platoon.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, so initially—And so, I guess, then—So you’re—You
basically—You’d advance. You’d go to wherever you’re supposed to go to. And what
would you do at night if you’re out in the field?”
You always set up an LP at night, and nobody enjoyed doing that. But you took your turn.
Interviewer: “LP being a listening post?”
Listening post. Other than that, you spread around. If it were possible to dig a hole, you dug a
hole. If not, then you just made do with what was available to you and try to protect your
position. (20:12) And hunker down and go to sleep.
Interviewer: “Okay. When you first went out in the field, did you keep thinking there were
RAD guys out there, or did you hear things? Or were you jumpier, or were you just…?”
I knew I was in a war. I mean, I knew that there were people out there with bad intention. And
you try and steel yourself to that, but I didn’t—I didn’t give it a whole lot of thought. I just knew
that it wasn’t going to be pleasant. It was my job to take care of myself and everybody else that I
could, and if something were to happen, then to—It’s time to man up and do your job.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you’re moving through the jungle, would you go on trails,
or would you make your own?”
No, we tended to stay off the trails because there were booby-trapped trails, and so we learned
very well—I was taught very quickly that your best avenue through the jungle is to make your
�Hodges, Terry
own way through the jungle, which, of course, makes for very long days because it’s thick, and
everything gets hung up. And it’s hard, and it’s hot. And it’s humid, and it’s pretty miserable.
But that was—That’s what we did, day in and day out. Always tried to do my job as point man
looking where I was supposed to look.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when you’re point man, about how far would you be ahead from
the next man behind you?”
Not that far, but then, if you’re in triple canopy jungle, you’re not going to be very far away from
anybody. There’s just—It’s not like an open trail where, if somebody’s lagging back a little bit,
you get a little space in there. Everybody’s kind of trying to—And you’re punching a hole so
people can follow, but everybody gets hung up. (22:07) So there may be spaces at times, but they
always close it up. So I wouldn’t say very far away at all.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now did you have rules, especially when you were camped?
Light discipline or noise discipline?”
Oh, yeah. No, you didn’t make any unnecessary noises. You know, that’s common sense, I
guess.
Interviewer: “Would people smoke in the field?”
Sure. Sure, they would, but you always cup your cigarette. You don’t ever light a cigarette in the
open. You know, you used common sense about that.
Interviewer: “Yep. Okay. All right, and how much food would you carry or water?”
Six canteens I think it was. Maybe sometimes a little bit more. As much food as you could stuff
in your sack. I remember getting—Sometimes we had a resupply with a whole case of food, and
that was great. And you carried all of it, but then you’re also responsible for carrying your own
ammunition. Sometimes you had to carry extra .60 ammunition for the M60, so, you know, it
was about an eighty-five pound sack on your back.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you—What did you do with the C-Ration cans or things like
that? Your garbage, basically. Did you have to bury that, or did you take it with you? Or
just leave it?”
We just left it. I mean, we weren’t overly neat about that or anything. We did. I guess there were
times when we buried it. I don’t think it would stay buried. I think the critters—As soon you’d
leave, they’d go dig something up, you know, because they would smell it. But no, we didn’t.
We certainly didn’t carry it with us. You’re always trying to shed weight.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you have a Vietnamese scout with you?” (24:01)
I’m sorry?
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Did you have a Kit Carson scout?
Yes, yes. I did. I did. As a matter of fact, mine walked slack for me sometimes.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now some of those people were actual ex-NVA or Viet Cong and knew
what they were doing, and others seemed to be staying out of the South Vietnamese army.
Was this guy actually good at his job?”
He seemed to be. Seemed to be very conscientious.
Interviewer: “If he’s walking slack with you, that says something already, I guess.”
Yeah, well, it—No, he was—He was concerned about what he was doing. He always seemed to
be doing his job. And then I told him. I said, “If somebody ever shoots me and it’s your fault,
I’m going to shoot you.”
Interviewer: “Okay, so you spend about a month and a half or something like that out
there—been patrolling around—or maybe, I guess, like June and into July. And then, while
that’s going on, the siege of Firebase Ripcord is getting more complicated, and the more
and more NVA are concentrating around that. And then your company is sent in.”
We were sent in from the rear from Camp Evans.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, and so, well, tell me about that expedition. You get the orders to
go out. Now what happens?”
We kind of knew this was not going to be good. I had heard that actually our captain, Workman,
had volunteered us for this even after another company captain had declined to take his company
in there. So we knew this wasn’t, you know, an ideal thing to do. And as we—And leaving the
firebase. Everyone was pretty tense about that, I think. I was. I know I was.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were the more experienced guys acting different, too? Because
the young guys—You hadn’t really been in anything big yet, but the older guys would have
been in firefights and things before. Did they seem—”
Well, I think it was probably the older guys that were telling me, “This is not going to be good.
You need to really tighten up.” (26:13)
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so you head out there. Did you take fire as you went in,
or…?”
Yes, we did. We did. They were firing on us as we were landing. All the birds. And, of course,
it’s a known fact if they’re shooting at you when you’re landing, they don’t care if you know
they’re there or not, which is not the norm. Normally, it—I mean, if they’re around, they don’t
want you to know. But if they let themselves be known like that, that’s not a good situation.
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Okay, and then do you recall where you’re—You had a string of helicopters
come in to bring you in if you’re coming in on Hueys. Do you know where you were in the
string or how far back?”
You know, I don’t really recall that. Probably the third, fourth bird. I know that we were told that
the birds would definitely not be sitting down. They’ll be getting you close to the ground, and
when they yelled, you jumped. And it was a pretty good jump.
Interviewer: “About how high up do you think you were?”
Probably six, eight feet.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. You hit the ground, and now what do you do?”
People were yelling, “Over here, over here! Move, move, move!” So we moved in that direction.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then that day now do you get into any actual—any other action,
or do things quiet down after you land?”
Things did sort of quiet down after that. And we were at landing zone, and we started moving
down a finger in the mountain to set up. And it was not early in the day. It was more afternoon,
so we started trying to set up a night position, which is the first thing that we did. (28:05) Our
platoon there. And when you’re setting up a position, of course, the first thing you—Once you
decide that, you know—The powers that be decide we’re setting up here. My squad went out
from our perimeter to do a recon of the area. So we were—started going out so far, and I was up
front. And I saw smoke off to my left, and I knew—Didn’t know if it was a spent shell or what,
but we radioed in and said we were going to go make our turn now and go check this out. So we
did. It was nothing. It was a spent shell. And we reconned all the way around the left side of our
perimeter. And we came back to 180 degrees, and then we came back in the back side. The other
squad—Another squad went out, and they were to—responsible to cover the right side. And I
don’t know whether they just hadn’t set up yet because they didn’t know where we were setting
up. Whatever reason. The second squad out got hit. They got ambushed. And that’s when my
good friend, Browning, got hit. Little Bit. Patrick DeWulf. Got hit. Several guys got hit. So that’s
when it all really broke open and started. (30:00) It was bad, and we could hear them down there
screaming, you know. We didn’t know what was going on. So I—For whatever reason, I said,
“Well, I’ve got to go see if I can get to Browning. Get to Little Bit.” So I got on my belly and
started going down the finger, and a .60 caliber machine gun was firing over my head. Got a
little too close, so I screamed back, “Get the fire up!” You know. “You guys!” From here to the
camera I had a sixty round hit, and I said, “Get it up.” And I said—And they did, you know. But
I went down. And going down, going down. And I found Browning who was dead. I don’t know
if he had—I don’t know what happened, but his—All of his stomach was gone. He was
definitely dead. We had support—air support—that day, and the jets were doing their ordinance
down there. And they had knocked trees over. A tree had fallen on top of Browning, and I could
not get him out from underneath it. Couldn’t stand up. So I got his dog tags and his wallet and
personal stuff and started to go down some more. And I heard Little Bit again, and then I heard
rapid fire. And that was that. So I made my way back up to our perimeter. And we ended up
�Hodges, Terry
staying there that night. No. Excuse me. We didn’t. We moved our perimeter because we were
getting chewed up. (32:06)
Interviewer: “Were you being hit with mortars or with small arms fire?”
Small arms. Our own grenades. At least, we figured they were our own grenades. RPG. So we
moved up past the LZ up onto—higher onto the finger of the mountain, and that’s where we
stayed the night. It got—For whatever reason, there wasn’t that much going on that night. I
mean, you didn’t sleep or anything. And right at very first light—It was dusk, and I remember I
was—For whatever reason—I don’t know. But I was cleaning my weapon. Because I was firing
it the day before, and I said, “Well, you better clean it quick.” And I almost had it all the way
back together, and we started hearing boop, boop. And we knew mortars were coming in. So I
slapped my gun together, and I recall a mortar round hitting in front of me. It did not go off
through gravel and dirt and everything, you know, on me. But I was on the ground anyway. But
it didn’t go off. But a lot of others did. And they knew exactly where we were. They knew—
They didn’t miss a single shot, I don’t think. Normally with mortars, you try and adjust. They
were right on from the very first one. So we were up and getting off that—getting off the
mountain, and I remember seeing—Of course, we were trying to pick up the guys that were
wounded, hurt, or worse, and get them down to the LZ. And I remember, you know, there were
quite a few people that were very physically messed up. But we got down, and that’s where we
formed our perimeter again. (34:10) And fought through the day. I don’t know about the other
guys, but I found that they had trees there that had big wings that would come out for roots or
whatever. And I found a hole in the—in between the wings, and we had a lot of ordinance from
people that we’re not going to use it. And I put claymore mines out in front of me, and I put—I
had ample supply of grenades. And if you wanted to come at me, you better be getting down,
you know. But we fought through the day, and, of course, we took casualties through the day.
And they would attack at one side, attack at another side.
Interviewer: “And when they’re attacking, could you ever actually see them?”
Yes, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay. How close were they getting to you?”
Thirty yards, forty yards. Something like that. And you’d take them out, you know. There
seemed to be a lot of them, so…
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were there at this time—Now I think we’re talking here kind
of—This is about July 21st, 22nd because I think you were pulled out the day before they
pull out of Ripcord itself if my chronology is right. So it’s about that point.”
We were pulled out that next day. Yeah, that morning. Later that afternoon we were—As a
matter of fact, Workman said, “Buddy up. When dark comes, try and slip out into the jungle.”
Then they would have birds patrolling the area for the next few weeks trying to find you and pick
you up. (36:04)
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Okay, so you were actually expecting to have to disperse into the jungle.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Now had there been—Because there were efforts to bring in helicopters, and
they were having some problems with that.”
Yes, they were having large problems with that.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what do you know or recall, or what did you see of that?”
We were told—And it was late in the afternoon, and we were told the Ghost Riders were coming
in. And I have utmost respect for those guys because they knew they were going to get chewed
up. They were, you know, the first birds in the previous day. They already had everything zeroed
in, so they knew they were going to get chewed up. And they came in anyway. And first bird got
out. Was taking fire. Everyone was taking fire. I ended up being on the third bird out, and then
the next bird they shot down. And that’s where—To my memory, that’s where Captain
Workman caught the prop—the blades—and was cut in half. But I was on the third bird out.
Interviewer: “So you got out of there.”
Entirely fortunate to.
Interviewer: “All right. Now the—Did the—Was part of the company left behind and stuck
there until the next day, or did they all get out eventually?”
No, I think they all got out. They left bodies. They left—I’m sure they left a lot of ordinance, but
I think most everybody got out. I think three or four helicopters were shot down.
Interviewer: “Because there’s a point where C and D companies of 2/506 come out to help
with the evacuation and that, I think, was after you left.”
Yeah, we were gone. We were gone. (38:09)
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. Now through all of that did you get hit?”
No, no. To my recollection, there were thirteen or fourteen of us that were not wounded.
Interviewer: “And that was out of the whole company that—”
That was out of the entire company. Yes.
Interviewer: “All right, so once you get back to Evans, now what happens to the
company?”
�Hodges, Terry
There was a colonel, general, somebody—Came in and told us that they didn’t want us sitting
around and dwelling on what had happened and that they were going to send us right back out to
the—And they sent out back out to Firebase Kathyrn, and then we got started getting new guys
in, you know, in subsequent days. But we did not stay in the rear.
Interviewer: “Okay, and do you think that wound up being a good thing for the
company?”
I don’t know.
Interviewer: “Well, how did the men react to all of that?”
I think they would have liked a little time just to be able to commensurate with each other. To
talk things out. And we did somewhat on the firebase, but it—That was, as far as firefights go—I
was in several firefights, and that was by far, in a way, the worst day I would encounter in—
during my tour or duty over there.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now how long do you think you stayed on Kathyrn before
you went out in the field again?” (40:03)
I guess a week. Maybe two weeks. I don’t really recall to tell you the truth. I know it took them
probably a week or longer to get back into that area to get the bodies out. And Browning’s wife
had requested that if he were killed that I accompany the body, which I didn’t know about. But
we were off the firebase, so it had to be several—you know, a few weeks that we were on
Kathryn. And we were actually back out in the field, and we were actually involved in a firefight.
Nothing like that day. But they sent a Loach out, and I was up firing and, you know—and so on.
And they crawled up to me and said, “Hodges, that bird’s for you.” And I said, “Really?” And he
said, “Yes.” And I said, “Well, then I’m out of here. I’m gone. I’m going to wish you guys luck.”
You know. But went and got on the bird and never will forget. He went straight up in the air
hundred or so feet and just buzzed the treeline all the way down. It was—And it was great. I was
getting in—But he took me straight to Camp Eagle, I think, where they took my weapon, ammo,
you know, all that type of thing. And then I—They—I got on a—I guess the C-130 went from
there to Cam Ranh, I think, and from Cam Ranh—And I still hadn’t—We’d been out in the field
for almost two weeks, three weeks, and I hadn’t bathed or anything. (42:16) From there I went to
Osaka, Japan. Browning’s body—Turns out was already back in the States, and they were trying
to catch me up to the body. And actually put me on a commercial flight out of Osaka. Not having
bathed or anything in a few weeks. But I would say the people on that plane were just—They
were marvelous. They were very, very, very kind people. Flew from there to the West Coast and
then from the West Coast all the way over to Dover, Delaware, which is where Browning’s body
was.
Interviewer: “Right. Did you get a chance to change clothes or bathe or shave along the
way anywhere?”
Yeah, in California. In California I did. Or it might have been not until Dover. I don’t really
remember. I remember getting my patches and all that kind of stuff in Dover, so now I’m not
�Hodges, Terry
sure. And then took a truck ride. Browning was from Georgia, and we took a truck with his body
in the back from Dover, Delaware into his hometown in Georgia for the funeral.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what—Was anything running through your head through all of
this, or were you…?”
No, I was just bone tired. I mean, I was just really tired. I was really glad to be where I was. I
was not happy at all about why I was there. I thought it was all a total waste. I always thought
everything over there was a total waste of some very good men, but I met some outstanding men
there. (44:01)
Interviewer: “Had you ever met Browning’s—his wife?”
No.
Interviewer: “Okay. She just heard enough about you that…?”
I think Browning and I talking one time—I think we kind of made this deal that if something
happens to me, I’m going to ask your wife, and if something happens to you, you know. We kind
of made that pact. But we were probably sitting around drinking beer, and you know how that
goes. But after that my wife flew up to Georgia and met me, so I was able to spend a few days
with her before I had to start matriculating back to Vietnam.
Interviewer: “Okay. While you were in Vietnam, how much contact did you have with your
wife?”
Well, we were out forty-five days, and then one night of the seven days we were back you would
stand in line and wait for the MARS Radio. And they would place a call, and you got to talk to
her for fifteen or twenty minutes or five or ten minutes. Whatever it was. But that was the only
contact that we had other than letters. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right, so—But now you’ve got to go back to Vietnam, right?”
Correct.
Interviewer: “Okay. Was that just something you accepted you had to do, or…?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah? Okay, so…”
But my wife became pregnant, you know. So that’s—And that’s my only job. So my daughter
came out of Browning passing away.
Interviewer: “All right, so now you head back out again. When you rejoin your unit, where
are they?”
�Hodges, Terry
They were back on Kathyrn, I think. I think they were. They might have been in the rear. I think
they were in the rear. (46:03)
Interviewer: “And has the monsoon started yet, or was it still dry at that point?”
It was still dry at that point. The monsoons were—Well, I don’t know. I think the monsoons had
just started because it was very wet in the mountains. I remember that I had a very hard time the
first day getting up and down the mountains. I remember that. Wading through a little river. I
remember falling face-first. My legs weren’t underneath me again at that point in time, but that
didn’t take long either, so…
Interviewer: “Okay. Now in these later months was there much contact with the enemy, or
were they largely gone?”
We didn’t have too much action after that. Little skirmish here and there. Maybe a sniper.
Something like that. But nothing anywhere near, you know, the episode in June at Ripcord. So it
wasn’t that bad, and not too long after that I got my drop of two weeks and processed out.
Interviewer: “All right. Now while you were in Vietnam—let’s see—did you ever spend any
time in areas where there were civilians, or were you always out in the field someplace?”
No. By the time I had gotten on the 101st Airborne Division, we had been banned from the city
of Huế, which was the largest town. You know, a very large town in Vietnam as far as Vietnam
goes. But no, they were—They wouldn’t allow us in the town anymore.
Interviewer: “Okay, and there were not really civilians in the hill country where you were
operating.”
No. No, there weren’t. It wasn’t like the lowlands where you had farmers and so on. No. Saw
very few civilian people. (48:14)
Interviewer: “Did you see any of the South Vietnamese military?”
No. Not that I recall.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so it was really just largely Americans, and you had your, you know,
Vietnamese scouts or whatever.”
Chiêu Hồi Scout and up and down in the mountains constantly.
Interviewer: “All right. Now there are a variety of stereotypes about Vietnam and what
happened there, and so we’ll ask about that just to see what you think of them. One of
them has to do with drug use. I mean, was that something that you were aware of or saw
any of?”
�Hodges, Terry
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. When we were back in the rear, blacks got really involved with heroin.
I would smoke pot. If it weren’t illegal, I would smoke it again honestly. But mostly just drank
beer. Alcohol. You know, hard alcohol.
Interviewer: “Now when people were out in the field, did anybody smoke anything, or…?”
No, absolutely not. That’s a good way to get lit up.
Interviewer: “Okay, and in terms of just sort of racial issues and so forth—”
Well, I say no. I was talking to Dale Tauer earlier, and there were occasions where people were
smoking out there, but I did not.
Interviewer: “Yeah. It seemed to have happened occasionally. It just—”
Yeah, obviously so. I wasn’t aware of it.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that’s kind of what I’m asking. Okay. Yeah, and
another issue has to do with race relations and things like that. And in the rear did the
blacks and whites kind of segregate themselves, or…?”
Yes, they did. Yes, they did. (50:08) Blacks thought they were being entirely persecuted and
fodder. Meanwhile, some very good white guys were getting killed, and I didn’t see the
distinction.
Interviewer: “All right. Now in the field, if you had black and white soldiers out there
together, did everybody work together?”
Yes. Yeah. It actually—Toward the end it actually got to the point to where the black guys
weren’t actually going out into the field, which I didn’t—I thought a large degree of that decision
was because they—The most of them were starting to have drug problems, but I think it was also
that the army made a conscious decision. They reacted to pressure. Political pressure. That the
blacks were being disproportionately maimed and killed, so they allowed them to stay out of the
field, which I wasn’t really happy about. Understatement. I wasn’t happy about it. Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right. Now did the army make any effort to encourage you to stay in?”
No, they did not. They did not.
Interviewer: “Okay. In fact, you get an early out. Did they just offer that to you, or did you
request it?”
Nobody ever mentioned it to me. I got to Fort Lewis, Washington and just processed out as
everybody else did. Nobody ever came up and said, “Hey, we’d like for you to re-enlist,” or
anything, which would have been a large waste of their time, effort, and energy. But no, they
never did approach me about that. (52:08)
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Yeah. At that point, you’d had enough time in service. They were starting to
let people out early on a fairly consistent basis, so I think a lot of other guys went out in a
similar deal. If you had been in long enough, and you had put your year in at Vietnam,
then…”
That was—That was it. Yeah. I had put about a year in prior to that. Eleven months, sixteen days
days over there, and they were more than happy to let me go home. And I was more than happy
to go home.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what did you do once you got out?”
I went back to school. Went back to school. Actually, when I got out, my daughter was only
seven days old. And, of course, we resided in Baton Rouge. My football to my college—My
football team—My head coach offered me my scholarship back. I had one year remaining and
also another year of being the student, you know—the coach. You know, the assistant—Not
assistant coach, but—To work with the program for another year. And my wife said, “You either
go back to school there, or you be a dad.” So I stayed home and was a dad.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you find a job?”
Yeah, I went to work for Mabel. I went to work for the—It was, what? Southwestern Bell at the
time, I guess. Installing telephones and climbing poles and doing that sort of thing.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you have any trouble readjusting to civilian life?”
No, but that’s not me. I kind of—Just like I didn’t have that much trouble going into the army, I
just—“That’s where I am. I’m going to make the best of this. Do the best I can.” And I didn’t
fret over a whole lot. (54:20)
Interviewer: “Okay, and once you were back, I mean, would you talk to anybody about
Vietnam, or…?”
No. No, I did not. Had no desire to do that. I didn’t think they would understand. I’ve got three
brothers. Never really discussed it with them. My marriage, you know, fell apart, and I ended up
going back to LSU and finished school. So it’s kind of roll with the punches, I guess.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Did you stay with Southwestern Bell, or did you go on to
other things?”
No, I went on to other things once I graduated. Actually, I quit working for Bell when I went and
I started the GI Bill to go back to school and had a part-time job. And one of my younger
brothers and I shared an apartment, so it worked out.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what kind of job did you wind up doing then after you finished?”
�Hodges, Terry
I ended up in marketing, so I got a sales job with old Sperry Remington when they had actually
dealerized about that point in time. And the fellow that was given the state of Louisiana—I went
to work for him in the Baton Rouge office. Eventually transferred to the New Orleans office and
then back to the Baton Rouge office. But I was thirteen years with him.
Interviewer: “All right. Now to kind of look back on things, how do you think your time in
the service affected you, or what did you learn from it?” (56:06)
I already knew how to play with weapons, so I didn’t learn that from them, I don’t think. And I
enjoyed the bigger guns and the explosives. I enjoyed fooling with that. I didn’t really learn a
whole bunch as far as—You learn about things you don’t want to know about. I learned about
war. I learned about the human capacity for sacrifice and, I guess, a lot of bad odds to do what, in
your mind, says you’re supposed to do. People caring about people. It’s probably the one thing
that I’ve gathered from getting back with these guys just for the last two years. The last two
reunions. Is that they’ve filled in a lot of pieces of what went on that bad day, but it’s also—We
also have a camaraderie that you’re not going to find anywhere else, and we’re also
commensurate with the fact that there was some really, really good young men that were wasted.
And you feel a loss about that, but then you also feel very fortunate to have reconnected with
them because they’re some great guys. They are just truly great guys. Feel about them more—
I’m not one that has a lot of friends. Don’t need a lot of friends. Never wanted a lot of friends. I
consider each and every one of them a true friend. And I’ve got a few of them back home, you
know. But that’s who I pal with. That’s who I play golf with. My circle’s not that large, but it’s a
good circle.
Interviewer: “Yeah, well, it is certainly a good group of men here. I’d just like to close up
by just thanking you for taking the time to share this story today and help fill in another
piece of it.”
I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you, Jim. (58:23)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_HodgesT2281V
Title
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Hodges, Terry (Interview transcript and video), 2016
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-02
Description
An account of the resource
Terry Hodges was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, in 1948. He graduated high school in 1966 and attended Southeastern Louisiana University for three years before he recieved his draft notice. Hodges attended both basic and advanced infantry training in Fort Polk, Louisiana, and rejected then opportunity to attend Noncommissioned Officer Candidate School at Fort Benning, Georgia. He was then sent to Vietnam in 1970 where he was stationed at Camp Evans and then Firebase Kathryn with Delta Company, 1st Battalion of the 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne. He remembered his unit coming under fire during the siege on Firebase Ripcord after which his unit suffered heavy losses. He also had to accompany his friend's body back to the U.S. for the funeral in Georgia. Having served eleven months and sixteen days in Vietnam, Hodges was eventually given an early-out in April of 1971 and returned to his home in Baton Rouge.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hodges, Terry Lynn
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b6848d882890e7fe158bdaf32be7e144.mp4
abf68dc163b456c00ec37afc0685de5e
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d56e62990df10e9f1450cb574697342e.pdf
d2d22fe1941cf6754aa58a42378bcf06
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Raymond Hines
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Christopher Kroupa
Interviewer: Alright now we’ve gotten to the point in your story where you’re working with 2nd
Battalion of the 506th, you’ve been talking some about Colonel Lucas, the battalion commander,
and you were heading out to a firebase called Gladiator,
Veteran: Correct,
Interviewer: Okay now what, roughly when was that?
Veteran: *laughs*
Interviewer: Well was Ripcord, Ripcord, we already established…
Veteran: We were, we had not gotten that, we had not established troops on Ripcord at that
point,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Okay, Ripcord was still, we had had people up there and got run off,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And that had happened twice,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: At that point,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: I think twice, I don’t know
Interviewer: Okay so now we’re kind of in early April 1970 before the people actually march up
to the top,
Veteran: Correct
Interviewer: And set up, okay,
Veteran: Yes
�Interviewer: So pick up the story then from there
Veteran: Well, not much more, we, they built the TOC there, I didn’t like the TOC, I didn’t like,
when you’re building a TOC, when you’re, when you’re building a structure, a TOC, it was a, a
bunker if you will,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the steps going in were from the uphill down, the way they had it they didn’t
actually have steps, they had, it was like a funnel going down into the TOC,
Interviewer: Was this on Gladiator or was this on,
Veteran: This was on Gladiator,
Interviewer: Yeah okay,
Veteran: And eventually I'm sure they got it straightened out but at that point they didn’t have it,
and I didn’t want to spend the night there okay, for me that’s a funnel when, mortars come down,
mortars come relatively straight down, they hit a funnel they’re gonna follow it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That goes right into the TOC, didn’t have a blast wall, didn’t have basic things that to
me were basic,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and I don’t remember where I slept but I didn’t sleep in there that night, they
were upset with me and so, that’s okay,
(2:00)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The next morning they went back to the rear and took the showers and came back out
and I was going to go back to the rear but nothing ever came. I sat on the pad for a while and
they came back and I was rather upset but, which led to me being replaced,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Yeah, I was upset, anyway, the next day Colonel Lucas had me come with him and we
went back to the rear and we talked to my commander and, I got to talk to my commander,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: It was, he was gonna replace me and he did, he had another captain come in,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Andahe, Ray Williams,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: My boss, the S3 advised against it because it was a rough area but anyway he sent me
back with this guy and I was gonna train him into my job and when I was happy he was able to
do it, then I was to come back to work with the S3,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we were there for a day or two I don’t know, several days and it became apparent
to me that I didn’t have enough time in country and that’s what I told my boss, I said sir I don’t
have enough time in country to get this guy back to where he ought to be,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, but anyway I turn my stuff over to him and, and we went, I went back to the
battalion headquarters, assistant S3,
Interviewer: Alright, and so are you, is this at Camp Eagle or Evans?
Veteran: Evans,
Interviewer: Okay, you’re in Evans, alright,
Veteran: So I'm back at Evans, and assistant S3 assigning fires that kind of stuff,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Not much happened, same, same kind of thing happened,
(4:00)
Interviewer: But did you, were you aware of Ripcord being set up or what were you,
Veteran: I'm aware of it but I wasn’t out there,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Now you’re talking on the phone, on the radio,
Interviewer: Right,
�Veteran: Radio contact,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: With people you weren’t, wasn’t out there,
Interviewer: Yup
Veteran: Wasn’t flying around,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: So I was aware that being set up and I was aware of assigning fires and the whole thing
but, not, nothing specific,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: After a while, after a while we had the incident on fire support base Henderson, where
the brigade commander Colonel Bradley and his S3, Major Tex Turner, the artillery liaison
officer, Captain Hopkins, Fred Hopkins, and the Sergeant Major and I think his name was Long
or Longest,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I'm not, I'm not sure of his name but they went in there and they were hit with a mortar
round and the Sergeant Major was killed and Fred was wounded, he had a bad wound on lower
leg, and was basically medevacked, that would have been the third of May I’ve been told,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t remember dates, but that, that happened apparently on the third of May, and if
you read the, Hopkins, Chuck Hawkins wrote an article for the VFW,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I believe it’s for VFW about Ripcord, he left out the artillery officer totally,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I confronted with him, confronted him with that during this meeting, he said well I
probably left a lot of people out and the significance of him leaving that out is that Fred was part
of the party,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: That came out with Colonel Bradley,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: So, leaving him out is significant,
(6:00)
Veteran: whereas if he’d been out there as part of the artillery out there, it would be coincidental,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, same round that killed, that killed the Sergeant Major wounded, wounded
Fred,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I went over there and it was right after it happened so it would have been probably
the fourth of May, they sent me over there, and then I, I was the Artillery Liaison with the third
brigade until I rotated back to the states, well I left and I can’t tell you exactly when, perhaps
three or four days before so somewhere probably the twenty-forth, the twenty-fifth of May,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: I'm guessing I don’t remember correctly,
Interviewer: Alright
Veteran: I know the day after I left, the day was, was, it was one year exactly, twenty-nine May,
and I left,
Interviewer: Okay, now were there any other kind of significant actions or things that went on
that you were providing support for or was it just mostly small or routine engagements?
Veteran: Well we, it was, you’re, when you’re dealing with the Brigade Commander, you’re at a
different level or course,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: I don’t know I wasn’t following as closely what was happening on Ripcord,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I know that was going on and that was a big part of the entire brigades’ efforts,
Interviewer: Right,
�Veteran: I do know we went back to Brad, to
Interviewer: Henderson?
Veteran: Henderson, and I was explained what happened and pretty much the same story over
and over again, but went back there, it was, its secondhand knowledge and I could tell you what
they said which is slightly different then than the version I hear going around,
(8:01)
Veteran: But, nevertheless, it essentially alright, then we, we had a, an insertion, I'm not sure
what we were gonna do but it was in the Co Chien River, there was a sandbar in the edge of the
river and we’re flying around and they decide they wanna put and insertion right there on that
sandbar, and I'm trying to find an artillery, do an artillery prep, it’s out of my normal amount of
range with not communicating with the regular artillery battalion, so I ended up having to find
somebody to do that, I think pretty sure the ARVN’s did that out of, out of Dong Ha or
somewhere up there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t really remember what happened that, when they did artillery prep is, they blew
the sandbar away, so they had to land on the, the banks of the river, it was just right by the banks
of the river anyway,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They, they did that getting serious okay,
Interviewer: I wonder why you would insert on a sandbar, not sure what that would accomplish
Veteran: Who knows, I mean who knows if there's mines on it, who knows anything about it,
Interviewer: Yup
Veteran: And to do an artillery prep, maybe it was a, anyway the artillery prep blew it away,
Interviewer: Yup,
Veteran: So it wasn’t an issue anymore,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Let me think was there anything else that happened, I don’t, I really, it was really fairly
routine,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Colonel Bradley was fixing to leave and he was talking about leaving and going back to
Maine, turns out he didn’t go back to Maine, he went to Florida and became a real estate mogul
or something and, Tex Turner, I don’t know what, I know he went to the, to the Ranger school
for a while he was coming out of the Ranger school, I don’t know what else he did,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And he’s retired now and last I heard he was in, in Virginia
(10:00)
Veteran: And we, near Williamsburg somewhere in there,
Interviewer: Alright, so now you’re heading out of Vietnam,
Veteran: Out of Vietnam,
Interviewer: Where do you go,
Veteran: We go, alright so my, I'm in Vietnam and I go to Camp Eagle, I flew down there, report
to DIVARTY, and you’re processed out and you get on a truck to go to someplace else and
maybe Da Nang,
Interviewer: Probably Da Nang if it’s a truck,
Veteran: I don’t really remember, I remember going and it’s kinda a blur,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But we went down the road, one thing I do remember, there were some other, there
were some NCOs who were on the same truck and the NCOs were talking to oother NCOs and
talking about how they, they were too old to have been in the field you know they were just too
old, they're probably near thirty,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, thirty to me is not old, thirty is rather prime, but and I'm thinking to myself it
probably had something to do with that yellow strip down your back rather than your age,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Nevertheless, I didn’t say anything and we went on, we got down there and you had to
report in and when, I left out of Cam Ranh Bay, and we went to Cam Ranh Bay and I, you had to
show up for the manifest, if your name was called you went on and processed out whatever the
�rest of it was, and so but you showed up for the next manifest when the next plane was coming,
so I had some time, I went over the sand, sand dunes and went out on the beach in Cam Ranh
Bay, it was pretty neat,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You could walk probably half a mile only to be wait deep in the water, very shallow,
came back made the next manifest and came home,
Interviewer: Alright now,
Veteran: Flew, flew to Osaka Japan I don’t know why we went there but,
(12:00)
Veteran: That’s where we were, you know if the duty-free shop bought some stuff for my wife
and,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Came on and we went to Seattle, SeaTac,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We were processed in and we walk into this room and an NC, E6 NCO comes in
wearing a, this right shoulders to his left shoulder, he’s got this hundred and first patch, he starts
giving us this stateside verbiage that, y’all a lot of, hate to think think cause it irritates me every
time I think about it, I wanted to go home,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t want any trouble and I want to go home, this guy starts with this, this verbiage
talking to officers and everybody else about we had our sleeves rolled up and in stateside you
don’t roll your sleeves up okay, so we’re in out jungle fatigues but we got our sleeves rolled up
like we do, yeah okay, all he had to do was tell us we’re to roll them down and I'm just come
back from a combat zone and I really wanted to kill a person, alright that’s what I really wanted
to do,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Or at least give him a punch or two, but I didn’t do that so we get processed out, so how
you treat people and they weren’t treating us very well, you were treated better in Vietnam, it, it
made a difference in Vietnam I mean you have to say that, anyway I got a flight home and, and
came back home, my next assignment was Fort Sill, I went to the artillery advanced course there,
most of the, I knew a lot of the captains, we’d been together,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: In Vietnam so, let’s see Ben King was there,
(14:00)
Veteran: Ben Phillips, Quigley, Mark Quigley, and feels like there were one or two more,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I’d been with in Vietnam, we’re in the same advance course class and got through that
and I was assigned to, I went to 3rd of the 7th, eight-inch howitzer artillery in, in Nuremburg
Germany,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Which was probably a mistake, but it was, you look back and see it’s a mistake and you
don’t see it looking forward,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They’d been deprived during the Vietnam era because everything went to Vietnam,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And so things were not in great shape and the commander was not a great commander,
he was a helicopter pilot, when I got there Patton had just been on there, Patton the, they have a
lot of small bases around Major towns or they did at that era, and so a movie would go into one
and go to the next one and the next one and you know, anyway Patton had just been on that base,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the Colonel and, and the ma-, XO, his Major it was, his, shadow, shadows a good
word right,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: His shadow both had swagger sticks, okay you can imagine this now right,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They got swagger sticks and he was an interesting tour,
Interviewer: What was the attitude of German civilians toward Americans at this point? And this
more radical,
�Veteran: They didn’t really care much for us,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was, they were tolerant,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Mostly tolerant,
(16:00)
Veteran: Sometime while we were over there, they were making a movie about Hitler in Munich,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the actor who was playing Hitler walked down the street and people stood and
saluted, I know why, okay,
Interviewer: Wow
Veteran: Now, that wasn’t everybody, but it was interesting,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was interesting, anyway we got by fine there was, there was some attitude, overall,
we got, one of the problems, actually one of the problems you have, we had in Germany was that
the people speak English,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We didn’t speak much German, so you end up learning a little GI German, where did
we live there, let me think about that, first time, the second time, I have to sort through where we
lived,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Because I was there, the first time I was there was in Wurzburg,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We started out, started out in, on the economy, then we moved, I started out, started out
in the upstairs, an upstairs apartment from a German, it was about twenty miles away from, from
base,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I mean it was a fairly long drive but it’s what you could find, if the Germans, Germans
like to rent to Americans because they would move on,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Germans once they rented, they had a more or less a contract, until they got ready to
move,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So in a sense they like to do, anyway we get, we did that and then I had another
apartment, I found another apartment and the landlady didn’t like our little dog okay,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: She was afraid of dogs, she did, they’d use dogs against them some, she’d seen that
happen somewhere during the war,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(18:00)
Veteran: Anyway, so we ended up, ended up moving to a different apartment and we were there
for a while and then, didn’t plan on going into quarters but we were offered quarters and we did
go in and lived on base there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was about a couple of blocks from where I worked, a lot more convenient, didn’t
have to worry about the heat, I mean,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Everything’s covered,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: So I was in, we were in Merrell barracks and Merrell barracks was built by Hitler to,
Nuremburg Germany, too, for the SS troops to control the crowds during the Nuremburg Rallies,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And he had, he built it out of brick, it was built out of brick, well-engineered, it was
built to be faced with marble later,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Because you had deep windows that were faced in marble and they were gonna face it
later with marble and of course that never happened, in the chapel they still had decorations and
chapels still had swastikas around the edge of the floor,
Interviewer: Uhm
Veteran: Well you say uhm but swastika is an ancient symbol,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Of good luck and then you can find those in Jewish temples,
Interviewer: Yeah, you can find then in the oven
Veteran: Yes, so it, but that was there so it was a Nazi symbol
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: And that was Merrell barracks, it was an interesting place it was not a terribly great
tour, but it worked out,
Interviewer: Okay, what, I don’t what’s the caliber of the enlisted personnel that you had, we’re
kind of getting into that post-Vietnam era,
Veteran: Well we were, I was, it was post-Vietnam for me, but Vietnam was still going on,
Interviewer: Still going on, but we were
Veteran: People that were there who were still a draft army,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Still had a bunch of people and the drug culture was coming on,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Brought on probably initially in Vietnam but they had, we had problems
(20:00)
Veteran: With it over there, we had no tests for it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Cause this is before you could test for, for marijuana or any other drugs,
Interviewer: There’s a point when heroin becomes a real problem and its,
Veteran: I don’t know when heroin become a problem, but I know we had everything that, we
had more than just marijuana,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: But everything started with marijuana,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And you’d get fresh kids in and they would, oh I'm gonna be straight I'm gonna be
straight, you get them in and, and the three weeks later they were smoking pot,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And it was the culture that we had, I had a guy who went to a bar, several of them went
to a bar, and they broke a window, a glass pane in the door in the bar and left, they were, had
been drinking they were, he was pretty much too drunk to feel the pain,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They walked back to the, to the barracks, this is at night and the MPs, when they call
the MPs they followed the blood trail to Merrell barracks and when they came into Merrell
barracks, they had the CQ guy cause they were afraid to go into the barracks, this is MPs, Army
MPs,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Alright, that’s the culture we were dealing with,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Does that make sense to you, you probably haven’t seen that but that’s,
Interviewer: Well I knew actually I’ve talked to some people who were in Germany, kind of in
that period at times there were definitely discipline problems,
Veteran: There were, there were discipline problems and you couldn’t get anything done really
you couldn’t, it, it was a major problem that, maintenance was a major, I think I mentioned
maintenance once before, the military, the Army had sold out to a maintenance program that
didn’t work,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and we had a, maintenance Warrant Officer
(22:00)
Veteran: Who was a good, probably a very good sergeant but he wasn’t a good maintenance
Warrant Office and that unit he was, that was for us, we were the lower echelon and he was an
echelon above, we were supposed to be able to send things to him to be fixed, the only thing I
ever saw them fix was the commander’s Jeep and their vehicle,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Which is a Jeep, alright, that’s the only thing I ever saw them fix period, you had to turn
something in to get it fixed, you had to have everything there and they go by and inspect and
then you might not get it back with everything on it, all the parts on it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Because they were prone to scavenge, to keep their two little vehicles running, it was a
nightmare,
Interviewer: So what was your actual job there?
Veteran: I was a battery commander to start with,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: As a battery commander I didn’t do a great job at it, I have to admit, I did what I could
do, we came in and I was supposed to be alpha battery commander, an alpha battery was okay,
bravo battery had been, was the disciplined battery,
Interviewer: Oh
Veteran: Everybody you needed discipline, didn’t fit in got put in bravo battery, the other thing
was we technically I had a hundred people there, full complement,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I could only control, I only had control of about fifty five to fifty six of them, so you
looking on paper it looks like you’re all there so why can’t you do and, let me tell you
something, you cannot do one hundred percent of the job all the time with half the people,
Interviewer: So where,
Veteran: You cannot maintain that for a long period of time,
�Interviewer: So were the other people there or doing something else?
Veteran: We were not at full strength by any means,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: So none of it was full strength,
(24:01)
Veteran: The maintenance system, you couldn’t get parts, getting parts was a big problem, we
couldn’t get support, we had in our howitzers, eight-inch howitzers have the same engine
transmission that a Greyhound bus has okay, Greyhound buses run, our engines didn’t,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And when our engines didn’t run you can’t get there, you can’t move shoot and
communicate,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: So we could shoot, we could communicate so so better, but moving was a real problem
and our, we couldn’t, we weren’t supposed to change the powerpack, engine transmission that
came together and was a big unit, we weren’t supposed to do that a the battery level, but at the
battery level we didn’t do that we had down ve-, down weapons,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: so we end up doing that at the battery level I mean, out of necessity, there was a
maintenance company on the, on the base and one of the things they had, I had to go through, in
the interim between, go, before I went over there was go to Fort Knox and we had a, a class it
was a several week or two on maintenance, Knox was the big maintenance,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: Thing, and I went to that and they said yeah go talk to the Warrant Officer he’d be glad
to, happy to see ya, I went and talked to the guy when I first got there, went and talked to the
guy, he talked to our Motor Warrant, our Motor Warrant talked to our Battalion Commander, our
Battalion Commander told me not to do that again okay, even when I said it exactly like that but
that’s what it came down to, well you’re gonna mess up the relationships we got going,
(26:00)
Veteran: We didn’t have a relationship alright, we didn’t have a reala-, relationship, and I was
nice with the guy, I wasn’t being ugly or anything I just wanted to introduce myself then when I
�was there, I need, that wasn’t the way he took it, oh well, now you like special, I like special
forces a lot better because,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: If that had happened with Special Forces, we’d just have it out and it’d been over when
one of us walked away and the other one may or may not have, anyway, different,
Interviewer: Special Forces might have more of an interest in getting the job done too,
Veteran: Special Forces was, is a good organization that they do and they’re dedicated and they
got, that’s one of the things, one of the better things I've done, when I got out of OCS I applied
for Airborne, Ranger, Special Forces, and didn’t get it, I did that several times, didn’t get it,
ended, ended up there so
Interviewer: So when do you finish up the tour in Germany?
Veteran: Well I wasn’t, I went, that’s not quite the end of it so,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: When I left there, and I was there for a year as a battery commander and went, was the
S2 intel, Intel Security Officer,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we changed Commanders, battery, Battery Commanders, so when, in, when
classified material came in I had to sign for it okay, and I had to show it to the Battalion
Commander and he wanted me, the guy that came in was you can trust me guy guy, alright,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I'm the battery, Battalion Commander and you can trust me so I don’t need to sign for
it, bullshit I'm signing for it, I can’t just leave it with you,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway we had a little bit of a rile over that but, and I'm not a, and have never been a
yes-man so anyway,
(28:00)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: We got through that, I ended up, that’s when I got, no its not, I went to VII Corps
artillery working in the S3 shop and I worked there for a while and I was just an S3, I was the
nuclear NRASS, nuclear release authentication system officer for them and,
Interviewer: What does that mean?
Veteran: There's a system, you can’t, we have nuclear weapons,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Alright, the nuclear weapons are locked away, we don’t tell people that but they’re
locked away, but you have to have authority to use them, you have to, that’s the President, comes
from the President down through the Air Force to the Army, Air Force through chain, it’s not
chain of command its indirect chain of command, but we have to have it and if that part went
through the Air Force, and down and there's a, an authentication system and there are devices on
the weapons that have to be, you have to be, have two parts, two parts,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Of the combination to open, to be able to use them and you have to have two different
people and your authentication system to open the correct cards and its, its complicated,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But that’s the way it works, anyway I was responsible for training and for testing for
run around that and other things, we ended up being rifted from, from there, I was in, from
Nuremburg Germany to Stuttgart Germany, we were living on the economy there and got rifted
and went back home,
(30:01)
Interviewer: Explain, so you usually see that word as “riffed” rather than rifted but explain what
that means,
Veteran: Because of the reduction in force the, the Army has set levels of office, officers to
enlisted,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And so when thy reduce the size of the Army they reduce the size of the Officer Corps,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And there had been I think, I think mine was the fifth RIF that they had had and I got,
when I was notified of it and there's no recourse really, got a little stamps with, with Pentagon
�stamped on your papers, no, they’ve reviewed it and its done so you’re out basically, so I was an
Officer, a Reserve Officer on active duty without a college degree,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And now my source of commission was OCS,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And all those things counted against staying in,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And so I was out,
Interviewer: Would they have allowed you to stay as a sergeant or was that not an option?
Veteran: I could have gone back, I could have gone back as an E5,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: When you report to OCS, you’re, you’re promoted to E5, I could have gone back to that
and I declined okay,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So I, I was out and I went to, went back to school, decided, with my wife and I went to
the library one day, we were looking to get, kept hearing rumors of more riffs, more riffs coming
along and sat down and looked through some career publications and trying to see, if I'm rifted
what am I gonna do,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And one of the things I wanted to do is, was be a veterinarian, my grandfather was a
real, he was a cow doctor he wasn’t really a certified veterinarian but a late doctor,
(32:01)
Veteran: And I decided that’s what I wanted to do, so I went, when I got out I went back to
school, went to Clemson for year and got the prerequisites and I did well, I applied myself and
did well and I had, my, my wife told me later she didn’t really want me to be accepted to go
through, to be a veterinarian,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Because of the, it’s the hardship in your own school,
�Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: How much money in the, but I got accepted, I had, so I had one shot at it, one shot at
being a veterinarian and I got accepted so then I spent four years at the University of Georgia, I
was a year at Clemson and I took animal industries which taught me a lot, it was, I didn’t grow
up on a farm, I had both my grandparents were farmers but I wasn’t, we lived in town in
Spartanburg anyway, I went to Clemson and then I went to University of Georgia for four years
and learned to be a veterinarian and when I graduated from there I went to Junaluska Animal
Hospital in Waynesville area of North Carolina, mountains of North Carolina,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Practiced there two years and then I went to South Carolina and went into a partnership
with a guy, called him a three P veterinarian,
Interviewer: Means?
Veteran: Which means he cures everything with penicillin, panel log, and prednisone,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Three P veterinarian, now you could treat a lot with those three things I’ll grant you but
there are multiple other things and not a very progressive person,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Okay, he had been there a long time and then when he graduated that was the degree,
was veterinary medicine, it wasn’t for us it was a doctorate,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(34:00)
Veteran: So you had to have at least two years of undergraduate, most people had four,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So when, when I completed my veterinary degree I went back and applied for a degree
when I completed the work, I applied for a degree from Clemson and I got it, so my, I graduated
from Clemson in April and then Georgia in May,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It’s a moth apart because of the graduation dates anyway, so I have a DVM, went to
Junaluska, went back to, went to Union South Carolina and practiced, started out in a partnership
�and then ended up being a sole practitioner and a, a year before that I had gotten back on
Reserve, back in the Reserve,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: To make, to build time for retirement and they called me one day, they were looking for
active-duty veterinarians and I was burned out from veterinary practice, I lived a mile away from
my practice and every night I would leave it, 5:30 or 6 o’clock when I could get away, closed at
five,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: 5:30 to 6:00 when I could get away and have calls to go back every night okay, I
changed my hours one time, moved it from five to six,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I sat there from five to six and then had the same thing happen, so I changed it back,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: if it’s not going to help me, why bother anyway, I, I went back in as a veterinarian into
veterinary corps and my first assignment was a 10th Special Forces group, I had wanted to be
Special Forces before and didn’t get in,
Interviewer: Okay, now what year was this that you’re going back in?
Veteran: 1984,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: ’84 to ’87 I was with the Special Forces group,
(36:00)
Interviewer: Okay and where were they based?
Veteran: Fort Devens Massachusetts,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: So I wasn’t jump qualified, so I had to go back to jump school now at this point I’m
forty years old,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And I went to jump school and broke my ankle on me forth jump, I spent three months
in a cast, about three months,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I jumped again and got my fifth jump on the third of April and jumped into Fort
Lewis Washington on Saturday the sixth of April, which is my birthday,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: When you jump after being broken you, it still makes you a little antsy, but we got
through it,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: It was interesting jumping into Fort Lewis because its, it was turned out to be a rough
drop zone, there were hillocks and they, and I picked out one of those and was looking at, I had a
broke, had the broken ankle before so trimalleolar fracture was a fairly serious thing,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Fortunately they didn’t have to go in and mess with it, it was a closed, so I didn’t, it
wasn’t an open fracture,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was closed and so I didn’t have to, I healed better than I would have done if, if pinned
things and done that,
Interviewer: So they could just hold it in place with a cast and,
Veteran: With a cast yes, yes,
Interviewer: So why were you jumping into Fort Lewis? Was this,
Veteran: It was a way to get there in part, we, the National, National Air Guard from Rhode
Island or, would fly us out there and if we had a jump at the far end,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So we loaded into a C-130 and flew out there and we spent one night in Fargo, North
Dakota,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(38:00)
�Veteran: Then went out there and jumped in, and what we were going there for is there had, part
of the training, part of the medical section and the medical section is involved with training for
the 18 deltas who were refresher training that kind of stuff, and we wanted to send people to a
mountain medical course put on by University New Hampshire and they saw that there was a
school called mountain medicine course being given at Fort Lewis Washington,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And what it turned out to be, there was a medical battalion there and this was a getaway
for them, a treat for them to go up on the mountain and campout,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They hadn’t expected us to do that but anyway, we went, it was a great fun time, we got
a little bit of medicine and some cross country skiing and some downhill skiing and that was a,
being from South Carolina I did not have a lot of experience skiing, didn’t have any experience
skiing,
Interviewer: So what do either the Army or the Special Forces have need of a veterinarian for?
Veteran: I'm glad you asked, I was hoping you would ask that question, you know of course that
the Special Forces is engaged in guerrilla warfare,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We took care of the gorillas,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We took care of the gorillas,
Interviewer: As in Africa ape gorillas, as opposed to,
Veteran: You didn’t get the joke,
Interviewer: People with submachine guns?
Veteran: No, no its what do we really did, I told that once to, to a General, we went through a
receding line and he asked the same question,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: What, after the receding line, well we take care of the gorillas, anyway, it was a, what
we really did is, is anything to do with food stuff we took care of,
�(40:01)
Veteran: Anything to do with animals,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Use them as pack animals and other things, how they ended up and how they ended up
with a slot for a veterinarian in the Special Forces groups was out of World War two and when
the y formed tenth group, tenth group was the first one formed and was formed as a stay behind
to, so when Europe was overrun tenth group was going to be there in Flint Kaserne Germany to
organize the resistance and the first soldiers were predominantly people who had been in World
War two, they were Foreign Nationals,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They had been in the resistance movements over there and they had used pack animals
so when they looked at the tam on knee, they said where’s the veterinarian,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So that’s how they got the veterinarian in,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: When they use them a lot, it turned out to be a good thing because of the use of the
military working dogs now, the military working dogs has become,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: A big program throughout the military not just Special Forces and not just the Army,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So that’s been a, been a boom, but we did, we do food inspections we did, I did a lot of
things, I was also their Preventive Medicine Officer and it was a time when the, the medical
department would not provide an MD to be a Preventative Medicine Officer so I did that as well,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I had just did it, and did a lot of inspections and a lot of training stuff like that to do, but
then the other thing I did while I was there was, I went to the Special Forces Qualification course
and the Officer, Officer Branch, Officer part of them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(42:00)
�Veteran: At Fort Bragg and got through that have a long tab, from there, from, from tenth group I
went to a-med advance course, I’d been to the artillery advance course but that didn’t count
because I was an a-med and so I went to a-med advance course and from there I went to be the
OIC of the UK and Ireland Division of Veterinary Attachment Europe, and it’s a TDA, was at
that time I was there, it was a TDA, not a TONE,
Interviewer: Did you have,
Veteran: A Table of Distribution and Allowances
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: TDA, TONE, Table of Organization, Organization and Equipment, so more, most units,
the real units in the Army, the permanent units in the Army are TONE’s,
Interviewer: Okay this is similar to what they used to call TDY, the Temporary Deployment,
Veteran: No, TDY is when you go someplace,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: And, temporary duty,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: This is, this is more or less permanent,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: But it, haven’t even been there I don’t know how long but it, it’s a Table of Distribution
Allowances, you’ve got a mission that doesn’t fit in with, with a TONE unit,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: You’re not a field unit, we were not a field unit instead, well we did what I did, I had
twenty six people that worked for me and England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Northern Ireland,
and they, they, twenty six people to, two civilians and I had two veterinarians that worked for
me, part of the problem was that it had never been properly organized,
(44:01)
Veteran: To function that way,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And so we had to basically two missions, the missions were to do the inspections, fulfill
the role of the USDA and the FDA for offshore procurement of UF, foodstuff,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That was one mission and the other was taken care of military working animals and the
civilian pets,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So when I got there, there was an OIC and there was a one veterinarian in charge of the
food inspection and the other one was in charge of the, the animal,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Part of it, and the one in charge of the animal part of it was doing the pet, they made a
circuit where you would go to different bases, took him a week and he, during that time he was
away one night, spent one night away from home every week, the second week he was supposed
to be taking care of the military working dogs,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: In Britain because of the rabies quarantine, the military working dogs are owned by the
RAF,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But they're in use, what happens is, it was an agreement between the Air Force and the
RAF, Royal Air Force that they would get the dog when a handler would come in, they would
get the dog for the duration of the handler’s time there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And it would go back to the RAF, and for that we gave them $40,000, okay,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We took care of it all the way, everything else and that was a big issue because there
had been a letter written by the, the Chief of Security for the Brit-, American Air Force there out
of Mildenhall, because they weren’t getting the support,
(46:00)
Veteran: Veterinary support they needed, and so this veterinarian that came in that was there
when I got there, his thing was well do we own those dogs, I had a quick answer for him, yes, we
do we get them everything they need just like they’re ours,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then he had a big, to-do about being away from home and his child growing up
without him, I had been in veterinary practice in the states and living in the same house with my
children and you’re called away so much that you really almost grow up without knowing them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Because you don’t spend, can’t spend a lot of time, so I didn’t have a lot of sympathy
for the guy,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He also did not have a, did not have a, a veterinary license, he flunked the National
Board,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: And they, at one point you didn’t have to have a license, but they started having,
requiring all veterinarians to have a license in some state,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And he didn’t have one, so the OIC was allowing him to have Saturdays off so he could
study for his boards, you know he did, I really believe he studied,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: For his boards, he also had the other OIC had a problem with him in that the Australian
trench coat, the one with the cape and the slouch hat,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He decided that’s what he was gonna wear, where we were supposed to be wearing our
instruction said we dressed like the, with a coat and tie like the business population,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and this is what he wore around and the other guy didn’t like it, but he didn’t do
anything about it either
(48:00)
Veteran: And I was a quick fix, you can’t wear that anymore, well everybody likes it, well this is
not Australia, you don’t fit in with the population, you can’t wear that anymore, and the other
�one, our, our Dr. Fairichild, Sharon Fairichild, she was in charge of food inspection and they had
a list in, we were not computer, were not a great on computers,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Beginning of the computers stuff,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Had a word processor and you know the old tractor feed paper,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Okay, there was a, a list of initial inspections that were required that were behind, was
that long, I don’t know how many it was,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: A bunch because you know it’s very, a lot of inspections and both veterinarians were
paranoid about the OIC, had a right to be because the OIC was not totally fair either frankly,
Interviewer: Alright so where are you in the chain, are you below the OIC?
Veteran: I'm waiting, I'm waiting for the OIC to leave,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: And I took over,
Alright so how long a period was that?
Veteran: It turned out to be a, a month or so,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Longer than normal, longer than it should have been,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I got to see Carl, Carl Berryman, and things like he would degrade the British,
British are blah-blah-blah-blah,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then put on his little hat and his little, do I look British, this guy’s crazy alright,
�Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Come on, it’s a lot of crazy people in the world but you know why do I keep running
into all of them, anyway he finally left and we, we separate things out,
(50:01)
Veteran: My Commander, it was in Germany, was a full, full Colonel,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Full bird Colonel, he had his own little hang-ups too, he had, we had four TDAs, we
had one we were operating on, we had one that should have been and we had, it kept, you never
knew really what the real TDA was but what I found out was until I got somebody on the
ground, when I went in I had orders for Lakenheath, and Lakenheath is not where we were, we
were in RAF West Ruislip down by London, but whoever wrote the things didn’t know this and I
found out that it, it, until they got on the ground I could move people around,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And get away with it, I'm not sure it was legal, but it worked, so I put people where
they needed to be,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And so the twenty-six people that I had were all in, in one- and two-man assignments
they were out there on the civilian slaughterhouses, slaughterhouses and you know inspection
points,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Different places, it was a, a challenging job, it was one of the better jobs I've had, and I
enjoyed it, I was on the road though all the time I needed another veterinarian, I ended dividing
the territory into three sections, two had veterinarians in charge and they did everything,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Food inspection, and military, and working dogs, the dog work and the food inspection
work, and the third one I didn’t have a veterinarian for, we didn’t do the, the animal care there
and we didn’t have the, the mission, didn’t have working dogs,
Interviewer:Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we didn’t do civilian dogs and that was mostly Navy up north,
(52:00)
�Veteran: and I ended up doing a lot of that, I did all of it really,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Scotland and Ireland, went to Wales several times, interesting, interesting stuff in its
own right, went down to, in England down to Cornwall down, the western, southwestern,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Part of England,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And there was a Marine base down there and they wanted me to come in and inspect
some, some MREs that they had stored in a little hut, been stored there like three years old or
something,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They were old, anyway I did the inspection and what I found was that they were, they
had been temperature abuse, I mean they were, there was no heat no anything, they'd just been
sitting there for a long period of time and so I condemned them and that hit because I condemned
those they had to go back, veterinary corps had to go back and recheck that whole lot which is
worldwide,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Cause a little bit of a wave but heck with it, hats what my job was,
Interviewer: Almost three years old anyway
Veteran: Yeah what the heck, yeah nobody like to eat, it should have, they should have been
eating them in rotating them out,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But they didn’t anyway, but we would go in and I would do inspections, initial
inspections so in and inspect plants, we did, they were trying to get the milk suppliers under the,
our, FDA’s milk plan,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And, and then they were trying to get everything to fall under the FDA’s plan for, for
fluid milk, which is not, we didn’t have a lot for ultra-high temperature pasteurization,
�(54:00)
Veteran: So what they did in Germany, this is our full bird Colonel, nice guy but still had his
quirks, but his ruling over there, what they did over there is they pasteurized it first,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: With HTST, high temperature short time pasteurization which is what most of our milk
over here is, and then they ran it through the, the ultra-high temperature of pasteurization so your
pasteurizing it twice and we did not have that option and most of the plants, the plants are, are,
were very modern the HTST plants, high temperature short time plants, most of them in Britain
were run by computers and what the, our plan in the US pasteurization requires a, a pump to be
timed and set and wired set so it won’t change the output, well if you don’t have that you don’t
have that pump and your pump is, is not a fixed volume pump, what we ended up doing was
using the pasteurization, the pasteurizer as the pump, to set the volume, but in the, the British
plants many of them, the guy sitting on the, on the floor supervising the milk going through he
got too much blown back, too much wasn’t, didn’t meet the pasteurization qualifications, he
could change the temperature, and we couldn’t allow that,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We had, had to go through the pasture, it was, it was very interesting I thought,
(56:00)
Interviewer: You learn all sorts of things in the military,
Veteran: You learn things you had no idea you would ever needed to know,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: One of the worst things we had to do was inspect eggs, and the reason it was a bad job
was because we have a different standard in the US, we wash eggs,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And reoil them,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Over there they don’t,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So you had dirty eggs, people complain about dirty eggs, well you have to think about
this guys, guy gets up at three in the morning to be there by six and they wondering when they
�start out, he’s got a bunch of eggs they tell him how many he has, how many cases he has to
inspect, the plant people pull those cases out of the lot and they run them through the machine
and you’re looking and you pick out and you get so they don’t pass, they get one free relook, so
you go out and come back in an hour and they're supposed to be reworking these eggs you know,
they don’t,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You come back in an hour and you inspect another batch and they don’t pass and then
they can call the contracting officer, not the veterinarian but the contracting officer and give
them another look, so you’re working about, you start out at three in the morning you’re working
about three four in the afternoon and it’s about time to go home,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And you’re tired anyway and they pass them just because they really haven’t been
reworked,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: A lot of interesting thing I learned about food inspection and things like that, go into a
plant and you seen the thing on the news where somebody is licking an ice cream, don’t know if
you’ve seen it or not, so fat its going on and put it on YouTube where they go a store take it out,
a carton of ice cream,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Take the top off lick it put the top back on put it back in,
Interviewer: Ewe
Veteran: No lie, well one place we went you went in and there was chocolate and they written
something in the chocolate,
(58:01)
Veteran: Okay, well you can’t have that stuff, this is not, this is not right,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway that was a relook,
Interviewer: Alright back out of this a little, how long did you spend in England?
Veteran: Two years,
�Interviewer: Okay and when do you finish that duty?
Veteran: I came back to University of Georgia, I applied for a long-term civilian education,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I applied for a PhD program well I got into that and went back to University of
Georgia and in the department I was in, not the school but the department they required you to
have a master’s degree which I didn’t have so my major professor said go ahead and start and I
will talk them out of this, well he lied,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So I got a masters and a PhD in three years and five months and the reason its three
years and five months, about a year out I saw I wasn’t gonna make my deadline, so I asked for a
six-month extension but instead of having me report on the last day of six-month they had me
report on the first day of the six-month so I didn’t get, but I got it done,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I went on so,
Interviewer: Alright so what field did you do the,
Veteran: Microbiology,
Interviewer: Okay, alright and what were you gonna do with that?
Veteran: Actually what I did with that is I went into, went to work for a Walter Reed Institute of
Research and HIV research,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It sound interesting sounds important and it is but its like Trivial Pursuit they’ve already
looked for all the obvious things and so they, so and I went to lots of meeting, I met all the
famous researchers and other than that I can’t say I, I personally accomplished a great deal
toward the, but you’re looking at, at small things that we still don’t have a good vaccine for,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: For prevention, I was working at the area I was working in was a vaccine for the
prevention,
(1:00:02)
Veteran: Of HIV,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I was not the, the lab animal veterinarian but I ended up doing that,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We had a civilian contractor who got another job and quit, and I was the only
veterinarian on staff, and I ended up doing lab animal vet for a while through that so, interesting
stuff,
Interviewer: Okay are you doing that at that point as a civilian or are you still in the military?
Veteran: I'm in the military,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: And then I hit twenty years and I had to retire, had to retire going active duty and I
already been passed over for a Lieutenant Colonel so I, I decided to retire,
Interviewer: Alright, now tape number three is about up,
Veteran: Oh my gosh what’s our time doing, three thirty okay,
Interviewer: So we’re gonna stop it cause I,
*Screen goes black*
Interviewer: Okay so we are kind of working through your veterinary career,
Veteran: Right,
Interviewer: In the military at this point I think you have been talking about how you were
involved with HIV research and wound up supervising lab animals and so forth, and when did
you finish that particular stent?
Veteran: That was 1996,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: It was August, I got out of the military in August of ’96,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: About the, I think the first of August,
�Interviewer: Okay, and then from there,
Veteran: I went to the diagnostic lab in South Carolina, Clemson veterinary diagnostic lab in
Pontiac or just outside of Columbia,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: I worked there for, for seven years as Supervisory Microbiologist, and we dealt with a
lot of things, the lab was, had not had a Microbiologist in a few years and it needed it, a lot of
corrections and those kinds of things,
(1:02:02)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we moved into a new building which helped a lot but just finding creative way to
get equipment was an interesting thing,
Interviewer: So that’s kind of like being in the Army?
Veteran: Very much like being in the Army, we all had an interesting thing happen though when
I first got there, we, Salmonella Enteritdis had become an issue and we had an outbreak that the
FDA, the USDA had done all the chicken work, egg work,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Prior to the and the FDA decided to take it over, they lost, lost funding for it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And FDA decided to take it over and so the first case the FDA did was in South
Carolina there was a Mexican restaurant in Winder Georgia that they had to, customers had an
outbreak in the egg source for that was a company in South Carolina,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And they found that, found the Salmonella in the Chile Riano,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: A Chilean egg and they would, it was temperature abused,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: But the Salmonella we traced back to the, to the company, and the thing about
Salmonella Enteritdis is that we’ve had Salmonella and chickens all along, Salmonella grows at a
little higher temperature,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Than normal, and the chickens have that higher temperature about 103, the difference in
this one in the other Salmonella is that the others were in the gut and this would, would go in,
invade the ovary,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And come out inside the egg,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: now not the outside of the egg, so that became an issue, we ended up writing a, an egg
quality assurance plan for the industry in South Carolina and, and there were only five major
producers,
(1:04:01)
Veteran: There might have been some backyard flocks, but these were all the commercial
producers there were five of those who were in our plan, got it approved all voluntary and got it
approved through the FDA,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Which was a major accomplishment because some of the other states, Pennsylvania had
been working on it longer and didn’t, didn’t, we beat them to it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: To get the approval from the FDA, also when West Nile virus came through we, we
coordinated with our department of health and environmental control and monitoring for the
West Nile virus, interesting stuff, when I, I left there I went to work for a, 2003 I went to work
for the Joint Special Operations Medic Training Center with a contract company, Global
Services and it was the refresher training for 18 deltas, the Special Forces Medics, and I was the
veterinarian to support that,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Group and other work as needed,
Interviewer: Okay, at this point are you meeting people who’ve been Iraq and Afghanistan on
missions like that?
�Veteran: Oh yes, well the this I part of, yes, what we, the special, you go through the, the qcourse, the Special Forces Qualifications course to become an 18 delta and that’s a yearlong
course,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And so there's a lot of surgical training maybe the Special Force’s makes are trained in
surgery, trained as first responders and they use animal models,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: In their training and the animal model we used was goats, so my job was to be sure that
the goats were not, did not suffer at all,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Follow all the rules and that everybody was following the rules,
(1:06:02)
Veteran: Which is kind of sometimes difficult with Special Force’s troops but, only, the only
group that’s worse is MD’s okay, MD’s have no respect for animals I've learned this the hard
way, but we get through that, I did that and I also taught classes they finally made this, converted
that from a, a contract position to a government service position,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I did that from anyway, form 2000, 2003 to 2010 I was contractor 2010 to 2012, I
was a GS Army GS 13,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then I transferred to the Air Force as an Air Force civilian and GS-13 and,
Interviewer: Why did you make that switch?
Veteran: Wait, one of the things in making a switch from a contractor to, to a GS that position
put me under the military veterinarian,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the military veterinarians didn’t appreciate that, that you're a veterinarian, they
think you're more like a slave or a technician and want to tell you how to do your work, it, they
hired me for a veterinarian not a tech,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And that job came open and I took it and I was up, I never regretted taking it, I like the,
working with the Air Force,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They had had one person doing that job and she was, she had a military career in the
Army, I don’t know if she retired or not, but she was, didn’t get it off the ground really,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So I took it over and had lots of contacts and we got it going,
(1:08:02)
Veteran: In the Army we used goats as our model and this other one used pigs, you know there's,
there's a lot regulation and paperwork, you have to plan it well in advance, has to have approval
from everybody going its not just something you jump out and do and when we were doing
animal model training it’s not random, you have a set protocol and this is what you do,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And you have, you really have to watch MD’s when they're doing that because they
don’t like to follow rules,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Not like these Lieutenant Colonels,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, I did that until I retire in, in 2015,
Interviewer: Alright, now, I guess if you look back over the whole thing and the time you spent
in, in service, can you sum up I mean how you think that affected you or shaped you?
Veteran: Everything, everything you do shapes you and it certainly did me, okay, I was quiet,
shy, I tell people I was shy until I kissed the Blarney Stone but, which I did but too, I did kiss the
Blarney Stone but I was, it was more what I did in the service and what you have to do that
brought it out, brought me in a maturation if you will, it’s like being in Vietnam it makes you, it
changes you, you don’t want it to change you but it changes you regardless, Special Forces
training changed me going to the instructor course for the Special Forces they have an instructor
course there and that helps train you a lot, how to present things and how to give classes so,
Interviewer: Yeah, how do you think Vietnam affected you?
�(1:10:01)
Interviewer: If you look at that piece of things,
Veteran: Vietnam effects, effects everybody you have a different outlook on life, there's a certain
fatalism alright, part of the thing like going to jump school and everybody worries about,
jumping out of airplanes but so what,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You got a parachute,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That’s, overcome your fear, I, it, I can say it certainly affected me alright,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t,
Interviewer: Yeah, but for you it’s really kind of one stage of many cause you had a whole series
of different things,
Veteran: I had a whole stage of, yes many different things I’ve done and you learn from each of
them and each of them changes you somewhat, you can’t undo any of it, are there things I would
have done differently, you, you bet there were, I recognize things too if I had not had a wife and
a child I would probably be filling up a hole in Vietnam right now,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Alright, because you can become addicted to that, that adrenaline rush,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And things, the, the one job I would have extended for, I would not have extended for
any of the jobs I had although the one I liked best was being the Liaison Officer but with the like
second of the 506,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But the one job I would have extended for would have been to be an Infantry Company
Commander, because they're the ones that do things, they're the ones that are in control, the
Battalion Commanders not in control he may think he is but I mean he’s flying around at 10,000
feet trying to tell you on the ground what’s going on, he’s not in control,
�(1:12:00)
Veteran: Brigade Commanders from the Brigade Commander above they really didn’t know
what they were doing, I don’t think, I didn’t know, didn’t know the Generals,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Had very little interaction with them, but brigade, the Battalion Commanders had some
control,
Interviewer: But they're not really leading men on the ground,
Veteran: They're not leading men on, well I’ve been told some of them did,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay I’ve heard of some that did, Colonel Honeycutt if you read about him, I didn’t
know him personally okay,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But if you read about him, he was, he was an on the ground kind of a guy and I just
don’t know, Colonel Lucas was not,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He liked the helicopter,
Interviewer: Very much so,
Veteran: He liked starched fatigues and shined shoes and airconditioned hooch,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright well since we are at a Ripcord reunion and we get back to that,
Veteran: Right,
Interviewer: Ill fainted Commander at the end I guess is probably a good place to wind up the
interview,
Veteran: I think it is,
Interviewer: So thank you very much for sharing stories,
Veteran: Okay, I gotta go get...
(1:13:20)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
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RHC-27_HinesR2319V2
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Hines, Raymond (2 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2019
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2019-07-26
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Raymond Hines was born on April 6, 1944 in Wellford, South Carolina, and graduated high school in 1962. Hines received his draft notice in 1965 and chose to enlist in the Army. He completed Basic Training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Devens, Massachusetts, where he became a Morse Intercept Operator. He also trained in Artillery OCS at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, before transferring to Fort Bliss, Texas, as part of the Air Defense for only two months before being transferred to Wurzburg Germany. From Germany, Hines was deployed to Vietnam with the 2nd of the 319th as a Fire Direction Officer and proceeded to report to the Bravo Battery at Firebase Bastogne. He saw heavy combat with this unit. While in Vietnam, Hines also worked as an assistant S-3 fireman, and a Liaison Officer for the 2nd of the 506 at Fire Base Ripcord. After taking some additional advanced artillery courses, he deployed to Nuremberg Germany with the 3rd of the 70th House Artillery before transferring to the 7th Corps Artillery as a Nuclear Release Authentication System Officer. He would later return to Europe after recieveing his veterinarian degree in the United States to care for military service animals.
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Hines, Raymond
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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video/mp4
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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eng
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5433f5039206d237f7bb85a7a027df43.mp4
da810e75451199a656df4e8292a138a4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4cdfcb4a1081db4155ff45fc6a6b73b.pdf
f57421e906c4a5c6b2be3a9490472646
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Raymond Hines
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Christopher Kroupa
Interviewer: Alright we are talking today with Raymond Hines of South Carolina, the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project.
Okay, begin with some background on yourself, so to start with where and when were you born?
Veteran: I was born in, on the, April 6 1944 in Wellford South Carolina.
Interviewer: Okay, and what part of the state is that in?
Veteran: That’s in Spartanburg County, the upper, upper part of the state.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Northwest part of the state.
Interviewer: Okay, now did you grow up there, or did you move around?
Veteran: I grew up in Spartanburg.
Interviewer: Okay, and what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?
Veteran: My father was a city policeman in Spartanburg.
Interviewer: Alright, and then did you finish high school?
Veteran: I did, in Spartanburg high school, 1962
Interviewer: Okay, and what did you do when you graduated?
Veteran: I went to Spartanburg Virginia College for two years and then one year at the
University of South Carolina.
Interviewer: Alright, and did you finish college at that point?
Veteran: I did not, I graduated with an associate degree from Junior College and then I went into
engineering in the University of South Carolina, have a brother-in-law who is an engineer and I
felt it would be a grand thing to do, learned when I got there that you needed to start in
engineering if you were gonna be an engineer, and the other thing I learned besides how to drink
beer was that I didn’t wanna be an engineer.
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: *laughs*
Interviewer: Alright, so
Veteran: Ended up on academic suspension.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: That put me number one, number one draft pick, I was number one on the draft list for
Spartanburg County.
Interviewer: And when was that?
Veteran: 1965
(2:00)
Interviewer: Okay, alright, and so when did you actually then, so you get drafted and then once
you get the draft notice,
Veteran: I get the, I got the notice to come for a physical and of course I passed that.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I talked to the recruiters, I had some college, I talked to the recruiters, and the only
service where you could go to OCS without having a degree was, was the Army. So I went, I
joined the Army, Okay, and when I was down there I did fairly well on my intel, on the
intelligence test that they did and the recruiter for Army Security Agency came in and talked to
us, and talked to me, and talked to the other guys but you had to sign it for four years, and I
ended up doing that, and well you don’t end up going to Vietnam, Army Security Agency, and
you’re pretty safe and it’s kinda like a sissy agency, but nevertheless that appealed to me at the
time, I did that and then later I went, I went to OCS in field artillery and ended up in artillery.
Interviewer: Alright, so to kinda back up here, so basically once you got the draft notice,
Veteran: Right
Interviewer: You kinda weighed your options and decided to go to ahead and enlist
Veteran: Yes
Interviewer: And enlist with the expectation that you go to officers’ candidates’ school once you
finished your regular training?
�Veteran: Well there was no expectation, it was with the hope I would get Army
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Because there was no expectation there,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: There was no guarantee either way, it was just the only service where I could,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: There was that opportunity.
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: And the other services there was not that opportunity, so that’s the one I took where
there was a least a pathway there.
Interviewer: Alright so where did you go from basic training?
Veteran: Basic training at Fort Jackson South Carolina.
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: And then I went to Fort Devens Massachusetts for AIT and I was a Morse Intercept
Operator.
(4:02)
Interviewer: Okay before we get there, a lot of people these days don’t really even knows what
goes on in basic training, so what was basic training at Fort Jackson South Carolina like in the
mid 1960s?
Veteran: Oh, it’s just jolly fun I’ll tell you what. Basic training in South Carolina, it was in
December, I reported in, signed in the first day of December and it was several days we were
processing, it was the build-up for Vietnam,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And they were processing people in and we’d march around and they got us up till we
got to the basic training thing and get us up at 4:00 in the morning and we’d have to clean up the
barracks, clean everything up and fold up the mattresses and whatever else, take our stuff, our
stuff in a bag, I had a little bag and I didn’t even take a coat it hadn’t been cold, I had a sweater
turned out to be the coldest winter in South Carolina in a hundred years, then we walked around
�and we sit on our bags in a line waiting for the mess hall to open, and then they took us down to,
there was a processing unit today its right, its down from where the hospital is, but there was one
big, big building down there where we were processed in and the finally we get to basic, our
basic training company, and mine was on Fort Jackson Boulevard right now the highway goes
through there, I-77 goes right through where our World War two barracks were,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The barracks were real interesting, they were two-story World War two barracks you
could walk up to the windows and shake ‘em, we would put a blanket over the window to keep
the draft out at night, guys would go out training, come back in, it was better on the second floor,
I was on the first floor,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was better on the second floor because heat rises, but and then the heat ducts were on
the ceiling anyway they were right down the middle of things the way they were designed, no
insulation, you were, they weren’t designed for, for cold,
(6:04)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They were designed for heat, and we didn’t have to worry about that I don’t imagine
guys in the summertime did, but we didn’t have to worry about the heat, see guys come in and
stand under a light bulb to try to get warm,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: As kind of an unusual thing, anyway all I can say is its typical training, we just took
raw recruits, it was a draft army, I was in basic training with the draftees’ form Puerto Rico,
Baltimore, as well as Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania was a big one,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Big group, and then other people I don’t know who else, trying to think who else was
there not many, there were three or four guys that wanted to be pilots, helicopter pilots
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: One guy was Kelly, Kelly, no I won’t talk about Kelly.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Let’s leave Kelly out because Kelly was one of those guys that would tell you one
thing, and then he was, he was the student who stood out in front of the formation and, and he
�would tell us what to do and then the drill sergeant would show up out there and it wasn’t the
right thing and Kelly would jump on us for not doing the right thing when he had just told us to
do it.
Interviewer: Hopefully
Veteran: Yeah, there are lots of Kelly’s’ Okay
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: So, if you hear me say it, that’s a Kelly, that’s what I’m thinking about.
Interviewer: Alright, now so was it just physical training and marching and discipline and that
kind of thing?
Veteran: Pretty much yeah,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Bayonet training, rifle range, hand-to-hand combat, I, there was a, had a training
accident doing hand-to-hand combat,
(8:00)
Veteran: The guy was supposed to pull his punch and he didn’t, and he, but, he hit me in the face
with his hand from behind, anyway and my teeth went through my lip right here and came out so
I had stitches right here before I even got out of basic training,
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: It really hasn’t caused me any problem, it did get me out of going to the gas chamber
because I couldn’t, they didn’t think I could put the mask on,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I got that letter so,
Interviewer: Alright, and I guess it sounds like you would have had a real kind of ethnic mix of
people in this training
Veteran: We did
Interviewer: Yeah cause by now the military’s integrated and so,
Veteran: There was a, in today’s world we have to be careful how we think about race and say
racial things okay,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm, yup
Veteran: I grew up in a racial community,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I grew up in the Jim Crow era,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Alright, when we got to basic training, blacks were given a priority, okay, it was reverse
integration,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We did have a black assistant drill sergeant who was a great guy, okay, and I wanna say
that, and I didn’t have any problem with race,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But it was, everybody wasn’t equal
Interviewer: Okay, and
Veteran: And if you’re white, you certainly weren’t equal
Interviewer: And where did the Puerto Ricans fit in?
Veteran: In between, everywhere, we had, we had Puerto Ricans from Puerto Rico , and we had
Puerto Ricans from Baltimore, Baltimore.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Baltimore, if I say it right, I can’t say it right, that makes sense, anyway,
(10:00)
Veteran: Just, they were just there, just it was just it was a mix and it was not, I really didn’t have
any problem with it, I don’t today,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: And it, it, I’m, I only point it out because it was a fact that happened,
Interviewer: Right
�Veteran: Okay,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Not that, that, I feel badly about it, our drill sergeant was white, our assistant drill
sergeant was black, and he was a real nice guy he was, don’t have anything to say bad about
either one of them really,
Interviewer: And, how easy was it for you to adjust to being in the Army?
Veteran: Yeah, I don’t think we had a choice, I mean, you adjusted,
Interviewer: Well there are, some people push back more than others and some people have a
harder time
Veteran: In our, in our company we had two guys, draftees from Pennsylvania and they called
them flip and flop and one, they had a drill sergeant behind him the whole time yelling at him
and then we’d go on a march and one of them would fall down and they’d say, don’t, don’t step
over him, don’t step over him, but it’s a different world then you have today, okay, it wasn’t,
they finally got out I think, they got, which was what their goal was, whether or not it was real or
not I can’t say.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They weren’t in my platoon, they were in a different platoon, but they were,
Interviewer: Alright so how long did basic last?
Veteran: Two months,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: At least two months.
Interviewer: They come to eight weeks at some point, so yeah, alright so you get through that, so
Veteran: I got through that,
Interviewer: So, you gotten through your, okay now,
Veteran: I got, I caught a cold before I got to basic training,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: We were, they were moving us around, part of the time they had us housed in tents,
we’d go into those old barracks,
(12:00)
Veteran: And you get there about nine or ten o’clock at night and then you’d have to make your
bed and shower, shave, and whatever you did and then you had to, they’d wake you up at four in
the morning and go through the thing and,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You go through it, they finally put us in tents, and the tents were okay, they were
warmer okay, we knew where we were and they had coal stoves and so hanging above the tents
was a coal smoke from these, from these little pot-bellied heaters in the tents and I caught a cold,
which I kept until I got to Fort Devens, I got to Fort Devens, got to Fort Devens and they had
World War two barracks also but those were insulated and they had heat,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Okay,
Interviewer: You’re in Boston now,
Veteran: You’re in Boston and that’s where I learned how to goof off also when we were in, we
got in, report in, we were in a casual company waiting on our classes to come up,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we went to formation, we go to formation, and first day we went as accident, we
didn’t carry over boots so they had some people working out in the fields, we got, we ended up
on that detail, being selected for that detail, a couple of us in the same barracks did, so we went
back to get our over boots and heard the truck leave that was carrying us out to where we’re
gonna be working and then we reported back to the acting sergeant and he just wanted us to
disappear so he would have to, so we disappeared, he figured out if you, you figured out quickly
that if your name wasn’t down, they didn’t have accountability of you, you home free, let’s say I
learned how to work the system.
Interviewer: Okay, so what did the actual training there consist of once that starts?
Veteran: Well in training didn’t happen for a while that we were in transition for a while
basically, we’re in a casual company and doing, ash and trash kind of things,
(14:09)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Alright, shoveling snow first time of my life I had that much snow to shovel,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They had a, that snowstorm we had us out there in a fenced in area where we couldn’t
just leave, you couldn’t sneak off anyway, and me and this other guys we were shoveling snow, I
went one way and he went the other and, from the middle, we did it really nice looked good, then
they put us doing some other stuff like trying to shovel snow where they’ve been running trucks
in and out all day, I mean you’re not gonna get that up come on,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then they put us back out there, called us back out there to shovel that same
sidewalk again and they’ve been walking on it and it’d been snowing all day and they’ve been
walking on it all day and we didn’t do as good a job that day, then it’s just kinda been time came
and we had to go home, I mean what can I say.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: No, I think overall, I did, and I think all the people I was with, we did it, those things
we considered important we did well,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we didn’t consider them important, we could have just considered it make work,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We goofed off,
Interviewer: Okay so your kind of getting, you’re learning the system or whatever for a while,
Veteran: That’s right.
Interviewer: But at a certain point your actual training program starts.
Veteran: We had a training program, training program consists of, we were in old, those old
barracks, World War two Barracks again for the training area, we had the company area and we
had the training area, and so when you leave the training, the company area to go to the training
area, and you had the instructors and they played tapes of Morse code,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: De-da, Alpha, De-da, Alpha, and you had to hit alpha,
(16:00)
�Veteran: So you had your hands on the typewriter,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We had a typewriter and we had a headset on, and the saying come over and you were,
had the beginning you yell the letter, you repeated the sound and yelled the letter, okay teaching
us to do, okay so then from there it got, we got after the first phase when you learned the
alphabet,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You were just listening to code and typing it, at different speeds and speaking kept
getting faster.
Interviewer: And how long were you doing that?
Veteran: Eight, maybe nine months, eight or nine, it was a long time.
Interviewer: Now are they adding stuff to that or is it just constant repetition of just doing Morse
code?
Veteran: It was Morse code, you, and it didn’t, it wasn’t like they were sending you letters,
anything that made sense, it was random.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Because basically, and that was in the era of the Morse code and everything was, was
encrypted,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Everything they sent and you would send out would be encrypted,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: So, it didn’t make sense, you’re just listening and typing, and it got to be like a reflex
you, you were daydreaming and doing that so,
Interviewer: How many hours a day would you do that?
Veteran: We’d start at eight to about three if you were on, you went to eight from, you had a
lunch break, but you went started at eight I guess probably, I think it was eight until noon,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And you come back at one and go till if you were with your peer group, where you
should be, you went home about three, if you weren’t you went home about five.
Interviewer: And so how well did you do with this?
Veteran: I passed it.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: That’s all I can say.
Interviewer: Did you have to stay till five a lot? Or did you usually go to three?
Veteran: It’s, it’s not like you’re, it’s not like something you actively learn, you almost passively
learned this stuff, so I don’t even remember,
(18:03)
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: It’s just day to day you did what you had to do.
Interviewer: It would seem like something that would just drive you crazy after a while that’s
just this constant,
Veteran: You know it, you would think it does, but it really didn’t, it’s kinda like music in a
sense,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But you’re sitting there listening to it come across and you’re not actively thinking
about it, it’s like driving a car.
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: And you can actively think about it if you need to you do, but most of the time you’re
thinking about other things.
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: In between, its,
Interviewer: Alright so what were you really being trained for once you have this skill what are
you gonna do with it?
�Veteran: Well what you do, had a listening post all over the world and you would go sit in a
listening post with a radio or two radios and you would listen to conversation, to transmissions,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And they’re sending it by hand, its still hand done with a Morse, hand key code,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, the other thing is that the Morse person sending the Morse has his own signature,
the way they send
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You can pick out signatures, you can pick up one person from the other and that’s part
of it, and a buddy of mine, I got, we applied for OCS, a buddy from North Carolina, anyway, I
got selected for OCS and he didn’t and he went to Turkey and he was listening and he was able
to pick up the same operator on different time zones on time, day time is over here and night
time is over there and sometimes you use that as intel,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was basically Army intelligence,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: Then, but that’s what I did.
Interviewer: Okay,
But I’ve never used it which is probably a good thing.
(20:00)
Interviewer: Alright so your, so when do you finish at Fort Devens then?
Veteran: I reported in December of 66 to OCS
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Let me say this too, while I was there, what they did when we applied for OCS, is they
put us into Delta Company, the training company, so most, most of the other companies were
classes, I mean the classes would be together,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And but the people who were in, who applied for OCS got moved out of there into
Delta Company, and we were in the Honor Guard, so in addition to training, we got to march in
parades and do extra stuff, and shine boots more, and be inspected more, and shine floors and
stuff like that, preparing us for OCS supposedly, but the main thing was we had a little scarf
instead of a, so what it was called the Honor Guard and,
Interviewer: I guess while you were at Fort Devens, I mean when you’re not training, I mean
Veteran: Mm-hmm
Interviewer: Could you go off the base and go into town, or do other stuff?
Veteran: If you had a pass you did, if you were allowed a pass, and most of the time we were,
town wasn’t very far away, wasn’t a very big town there,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: It wasn’t very big but, or could go into, to Boston but that was expensive, we didn’t
make a lot of money,
Interviewer: A lot of money okay,
Veteran: Although I was gonna tell you too that, that Tommy Franks and I were PFCs together
up there, if you read Franks’s book, he talks about Sam Long, Sam Long was our sergeant in
charge of our, the honor guard,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, Alright
Veteran: Anyway, I think he was actually a corporal but, but he was, he was God to us, he had
that kind of control, and our sergeant major was named Scaglioni, big Italian guy.
Interviewer: Alright, so now you go down to OCF, that’s Fort Benning Georgia?
(22:00)
Veteran: No, Fort Sill Oklahoma.
Interviewer: Oh, Fort Sill Oklahoma, you were in artillery OCS.
Veteran: That’s correct
Interviewer: Okay so you’re at Fort Sill,
Veteran: Now having said that, and what you just said, makes me think you’ve been in, doing
infantry guys and infantry guys tend to leave out the rest of us, especially artillery.
�Interviewer: Well I’ve talked to artillery guys too, I just had to back up and remember but,
Veteran: That’s alright
Interviewer: But, but I talked to, but there are more infantry than there are artillery,
Veteran: Definitely more, well let me tell you what, when I ended up being rifted [usually
“riffed”: demoted when fewer officers were needed], there were more artillery guys rifted than
there were infantry guys, they ended up in artillery with a gap in your groups because of the rift,
okay, but whatever that’s worth,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Not much but,
Interviewer: Alright so off to Fort Sill with you,
Veteran: Alright were in Fort Sill,
Interviewer: Fort Sill
Veteran: Got into Fort sill, let me think about that one for a minute, I can’t remember how I got
there, we are in the, called the Robinson barracks, but Robinson barracks was an area not a single
barracks,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: At least not when I was there, and then they, they, it was, you started out, it was what
six months long, you started out as they would give you a hard time, under-class,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Middle-class, upper-class, they had it divided into three, three groups, upperclassmen
had like horseshoes on their heels, on the bottoms of their heels so they click when they walked,
you watched, you watched out for upperclassmen, typical stuff just a lot of harassment, a lot of
push-ups, you just do it okay, I mean just do it and go on with life,
Interviewer: So, could the upperclassmen tell you to do push-ups
(24:01)
Veteran: Yes
Interviewer: or things like that?
�Veteran: Middle-classmen could tell you to do push-ups, and I, but they were really there for
guide, to guide us and help us, and then you had a, a faculty officer who advised ya and told you
things, don’t think I got much out of him but that’s beside the point,
Interviewer: Did you ever have a lot of classroom work?
Veteran: A lot, that was mostly classroom, so you had the company area and that kind of stuff to
shine ya shoes and whatever,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then you had classes, and the classes were very much like classes except you, our
gunnery professor, I remember him throwing chalk at people when they give him the wrong
answer but other than that it was pretty much the same, he was a good guy to, he was, heck of a
guy.
Interviewer: So, it was a lot of math and calculation for,
Veteran: Yup
Interviewer: Like trajectories?
Veteran: We had, we had health and survey, you had to learn survey, that was a biggie, gunnery,
you know where you figure, where you calculate and how you do this laying the firing battery,
how you lay the battery, and aimon circle is what we used to lay it with, and the guns we went
through the guns, and the gun positions, we went through maintenance, the maintenance stuff
went through that, and at that time the maintenance well, didn’t have a problem in, with that
there, and they didn’t have a problem, the Army at that time had a maintenance problem and the
maintenance problem was that they had a maintenance system that they bought into, there was
more work than doing the maintenance, okay, and they should have taken it all out and thrown
them away, and start over again, and maintenance warrants, warrant officers were really glorified
sergeants,
(26:02)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Now today you would find warrant officers throughout the military, Army, Navy, all of
them I think have warrant officers, and they’ve, they changed that status, but until more modern
times, you’d say warrant officer and I’d say poo okay, except for the pilots, the pilots were also
warrant officers, because most of them were motor sergeants,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But, I’ll talk about that later, but that’s after Vietnam when I was in Germany for
instance,
�Interviewer: Okay, alright so
Veteran: Alright yeah, go ahead and get me back on, on track.
Interviewer: Yeah, we’ll go, okay yeah so just kinda talk about the sort of curriculum or
whatever,
Veteran: Am I ok, I’m wiggling around my chair so,
Interviewer: You’re fine, you’re all in the shots so
Veteran: Okay
Interviewer: No problem with that, so we kind of going through the curriculum I guess of the
artillery OCS
Veteran: Yeah you had to learn it, you had to learn tactics, you had to learn how to give the fiveparagraph field order, you had to, all the artillery stuff,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Survey, surveys a biggie, Surveys a biggie because we operate, that allowed us being on
a survey grid, allowed you to coordinate artillery from different units in different places,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And then the gunnery, kamo, you had to learn it all, what you do if your track breaks,
Interviewer: Have to explain that
Veteran: Well if the track breaks, what do, what’d you gotta do
Interviewer: If the track breaks,
Veteran: Yeah, the track on, if you have a, a mechanized vehicle,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And you have, you’re out there on tracks,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: And if the track breaks, and they do break sometimes you gotta go in and repair,
somebody’s got to do it,
�(28:01)
Veteran: So we didn’t actually do it, we supervised it
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: Stand there
Interviewer: Because some of the artillery was self-propelled,
Veteran: Some was,
Interviewer: And so that would have tracks, and did you also have vehicles that would tow guns
that were tracked, or was that not something you had?
Veteran: No, I don’t think there were any, any tracked to any, track vehicles other than some of
the howitzers
Interviewer: Alright
Veteran: And then we had towed guns that were towed but, mostly by truck,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm alright and then did you spend time out in the field like with, on a firing
range, with, actualing firing guns?
Veteran: Yes, we did, you did every position multiple times and you were forward observer and
you were bi-direction officer and you, you fulfilled the role of, in almost every position,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, okay so how long did this school last?
Veteran: It was, let me see, we, I graduated when it started in December, graduated in May the
29th.
Interviewer: Okay so you’ve now been in, in the Army almost a year and a half at this point,
Veteran: That’s right,
Interviewer: Okay, and having completed that, now what happens to you?
Veteran: Hey I’m a second lieutenant, and I went, I was selected because of my academic score,
now you have to remember, I came from my, my father was a city policeman in Spartanburg
South Carolina, okay
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: We didn’t really have any, any connections anywhere,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: One of my classmates had connections somewhere and I never have figured out where
or who, I think he was a spy maybe, yeah, I don’t know, but he had connections. And
Interviewer: So, you said,
Veteran: The other thing I was very shy, since then I have kissed the Blarney stone and I can talk
at into an item, but at that time I was very shy,
(30:00)
Veteran: And so I wasn’t terribly outspoken but, we were going to graduation and as I came up
to get my certificate, the officer they brought in says well how does it feel to be the number one
academically, that’s the first time I knew I was number one academic, I said no you must be
talking about Haynes this other guy,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But it wasn’t, it was me, alright
Interviewer: Alright
Veteran: So, I didn’t know that, but I was,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Number one academically and, I was selected for Air Defense at that time the branches
were together, Army and Air Defense were one branch, so I went into, I went to Fort Bliss Texas
to learn about homing all the way killer missiles
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Hawk,
Interviewer: Hawk Missiles okay,
Veteran: Hawk Missiles, 33 kilometers range, anyway and then I went to, I have to grin because
I’m sitting there thinking about, you have, in artillery you have to shoot move and communicate,
those are the three things that you do alright, and Hawk missiles, we have the same mission,
shoot move and communicate, we could shoot I couldn’t guarantee we could communicate or,
and we should couldn’t move,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Alright but that’s a different story, that was in Germany afterwards, anyway I went to,
went to Fort Bliss and I went to Germany,
Interviewer: How long were you in Fort Bliss?
Veteran: Two months maybe
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Wasn’t very long
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright and then Germany
Veteran: And Germany and I was in Wurzburg Germany, I was with six for the fift-, I think I
told you 54th,
(32:00)
Veteran: But I think its 6th of the 52nd , Bravo Battery, 6th of the 52nd and we were in housing
was in Wurzburg, but we were in, was an airfield just north of there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Can’t think of the name of the town, I was up there and why I say that is because we got
there and all the priority had been going to Vietnam,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: this was not a division asset, this was a higher-level asset
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: and their vehicles wouldn’t move, the highest you could order any parts was a 12,
which meant you never got anything, no kidding, I mean you’re protecting the entire area, it’s
like it’s like you prioritize the local sheriff instead of the FBI,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, different story, and it’s a pet peeve,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I got ended up being, motor officer dealing with things and it just didn’t work, the
other thing is and your trying to align things, it was electronic, everything was electronic,
everything was subject to the weather, we were, the weather was terrible, the whole time I was
there, I mean when I got there they told me, they said we had summer on Wednesday this year so
�the next year or next spring, here comes, we had a week of beautiful weather in April, it was
perfect spring weather in April and that was summer,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and in Germany things don’t work well in cold, electronics don’t work well in
the cold, and we had statuses, we had different statuses with the Hawks and if you were on a five
minute status, the highest priority we had was five minute status, and you had to have missiles
ready to launch,
(34:05)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Lit going in five minutes, you called and five minutes later you had to be able to launch,
and that was a tough status to maintain, especially in the middle of the night in the cold, and
most of the troops you had were rejects form the other, the other Army,
Interviewer: Alright well did you have some people with, with technical knowledge and
specialization? I mean was there some kind of core of people who were competent or was this
just a place where,
Veteran: We had,
Interviewer: People wound up?
Veteran: No, we had people who were, who worked on missiles, we had warrant officers who
worked on missiles,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And these warrant officers were probably the best that I saw, they were definitely better
that motor warrants,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Because motor warrants tended to be, sergeants
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and I don’t mean to be ugly about it that’s just the way I see them, anyway, but
so they knew more, the whole thing was just kind of, to make a long story short, about this, when
they separated the branches, they separated air defense from field artillery in Germany I went
with field artillery, I think I was the only one, but I did, I had enough of ‘em
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, well how long were you with air defense?
�Veteran: Two years.
Interviewer: Okay now what was life in Germany like? Outside of the job.
Veteran: Well, truth of the matter it wasn’t much outside of the job,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Okay,
Interviewer: Did you not go out, go off the base much or?
Veteran: I didn’t get off the base and I didn’t get off the air base very much at all, okay, you, I, I
was on, you had to have an officer on the, on the site
(36:03)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We had a barracks down below, down at, by the river,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we had the site up on the hill, and my job was up on the hill okay, and we had
three, no four officers, should have had four officers and two warrant officers, so we had battey
commander and an XO and then two other officers, okay and we lost, we only had four, they
moved people around and we ended up with, with battery commander, XO, and me for a long
time and then they finally got another one, but the XO says I gotta be down here, well you can’t
leave,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You’re stuck on that mountaintop,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: You got, somebody’s gotta be there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then the other thing would happen when, and some, they would pull night duty but
then they wanted to talk about things like more, like what’s happening with the motor stuff and
you’d end up leaving late, it was a nightmare for me, I, I, if you told me I had to do that again I
tell you, there’s no way, I’d go to Vietnam twice before I did that,
�Interviewer: Okay so basically you were, you were working and sleeping and that was maybe
about it? Or not that much sleeping?
Veteran: That’s right, I wasn’t off very much, I got off, I remember it well but I got off for
Thanksgiving, okay, in Wurzburg Germany because my wife was, we were newly married, I got
married right after I got out of OCS and we went, we went to a pet shop and bought a puppy
alright, that’s why I remember I got off for thanksgiving,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I hated that
Interviewer: Now did you live on the base or off it?
Veteran: I lived on the base, but it wasn’t, not, not where I stayed,
(38:01)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Now where I worked,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: You had to go down the hill, down the river, through town and up on the other hill,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was, what’s the name of the barracks I can’t remember the name of the barracks, the,
Third Division, the Rock of The Marne, what is it, Third Division?
Interviewer: Could be
Veteran: Yeah, their headquarters was over there
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And that’s where our barracks, that’s where our quarters were
Interviewer: Okay now could your wife stay with you or did she have to be in town or what was,
Veteran: She was there, she was
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Over in our apartment,
�Interviewer: Okay, okay so you had, there were basically married officers’ quarters or something
Veteran: Yes
Interviewer: Like that
Veteran: There were,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Started out on the economy and we were in upstairs of a German house for a while and
then we went into temporary quarters for a while and then permanent quarters, then they decided
to move, change that particular building to NCO quarters and we moved again and all this was
going on at the same time so it was kind of, nonsense
Interviewer: Yeah so what was lifelike for your wife at that point?
Veteran: Not very good, I wouldn’t think it was very good
Interviewer: But did she have a job or did she
Veteran: No, she didn’t have a job, she could drive, and she had a lot of free time cause I wasn’t
there, I don’t know, you know I, I
Interviewer: So how long in total was your tour in Germany that time? That was, was it three
years or did you just do
Veteran: Well I was there and then they transferred me to 69th group, which was also there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay and I was there for, when did I leave, let me think for a second, I was there until I
got orders for, for Vietnam
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Then I went back through Fort Sill for a month, probably had a month’s leave,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(40:04)
Veteran: And I went back anyway so its several months there,
Interviewer: Okay so when did you leave Germany then?
�Veteran: That’s what I was trying to think it was, that was a, ’69, it was in, it was 29,
Interviewer: Sort of early ’69?
Veteran: Early ‘69
Interviewer: Okay, alright so you go back,
Veteran: Well yeah, my son was, my son, my son had to be a month old, he was born in
February, so it was March of ’69
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Or April, around March I think,
Interviewer: Alright and so now you got orders for Vietnam,
Veteran: Yup
Interviewer: So, where does your wife go?
Veteran: We bought a house and during the leave time we bought a house, she went in with her,
her parents while we were doing that we stayed with her parents or my parents back and forth,
they’re both in Spartanburg and then she had the house,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: She had a lot to deal with, with the house and no furniture and all that stuff and, and I’m
on my way to Vietnam, I’m, yep
Interviewer: Alright now when you went through Fort Sill, did they do anything for you to
prepare you for Vietnam or?
Veteran: That was the purpose of what they were doing and we had some things, we’d go out,
they had a, a firebase laid out on the ranges and, so a lot of the guys that were through there had
been to Vietnam already, some had and they had comments about the way the firebases were laid
out,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Just took it all in I mean what can you say we, we shot and it was the first time I shot an
M16, they’d go out there to the range and they had some enlisted guys out there shooting and
they left their rifles there and we got down and shot two magazines full,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And that was it, I’ve been trained in basic training on the M14,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: Okay so I was familiar with that one but the M16 I wasn’t,
(42:00)
Veteran: And so then I get to Vietnam and I’m issued an M16, and I was the senior, I was the
first lieutenant and I was a senior first lieutenant, actually should’ve made captain the day I got
there but, it didn’t catch up with me till later
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: So anyway, they, I remember it well, having to carry the M16 to my, my M16 was
dirty, I didn’t, didn’t know how to deal with it, didn’t know how to clean it, one of the guys, I
was doing something and I asked him to hold it and he cleaned it for me, said sorry this was
awfully dirty so I don’t know how to, so he showed it to me, showed me one of, one of you know
18 year old kid and he showed me how to do it, and after that I cleaned it every day, and I
cleaned my ammunition every other day, cause I didn’t want it jamming,
Interviewer: Okay but that part was after you got to Vietnam, right?
Veteran: After I got to Vietnam
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: That was while we were in country trying, go ahead
Interviewer: Okay so were gonna go back, so you have your or-, Vietnam orientation course or
whatever,
Veteran: Right
Interviewer: At Fort Sill and,
Veteran: Right
Interviewer: That kind of thing and you experimented with the M16,
Veteran: Then I had to leave and
Interviewer: Yup
�Veteran: Then I, so I left from, I can’t remember the date, but I left from Greenville Spartanburg
and flew to Atlanta,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And in Atlanta we changed planes, got on the right plane, there was a, another
lieutenant, and there was a warrant officer there who were going to the same place,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Going to, Oakland Army Airfield,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: So it turns out the lieutenant was reporting in early, and we didn’t know that at the time
he was flying but we flew, flew out there and they, the plane was delayed, they were working on
the plane, I remember it still because, my sister lived in Atlanta and, in Atlanta area and she
came down to the airport and in those days they let her come in,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: She came in and we talked, and we talk and then she’d go out and then she’d come back
in and I kept wanting to go and just, I’ve already committed myself psychologically, let’s just get
this thing over with,
(44:01)
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: And, finally we took off, we, we took off at three, three o’clock, and we got there a
three o’clock, and that’s the only time I’ve made, I don’t know how fast we were flying, they
said we had a tailwind and they I don’t know if they have speed limits in the air or not, but I’ve
never had, I’ve never made that trip that fast again,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Okay, but I remember we left at three and we got there at three and you got the threehour difference so,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm right, yeah because I think in that area three hours from Chicago to the
west coast was good, so from Atlanta would be that much better,
Veteran: Right
Interviewer: Okay, Alright so you go, so you’re in, you’re processing out of Oakland,
�Veteran: Yep and we get, so we get, get into the airport and we go, well not to Oakland we’re
getting out of the airport and we go, you had to walk two blocks and we saw the, the little
Berkeley girls, don’t go, don’t go, all that stuff so but we go and we get on a bus, and the bus
goes takes us out there and as you’re going you see Alcatraz off in the, in the bay out there and
we go over to, to Oakland and report in and, what’s his name, anyway, the warrant officer and I
went to the officers club and had a surf-and-turf, came back, had to report in I think at 8:00 we
report in and we get seated and we fly, fly first to Alaska, I think it was Fairbanks,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And why we went to Alaska, I have no idea,
Interviewer: Well a lot of them went through Anchorage,
Veteran: Maybe its Anchorage,
Interviewer: That’s more, a little farther south and on the coast,
Veteran: Maybe its Anchorage,
Interviewer: Yeah cause it’s the, the northern circle, its shorter
Veteran: It probably was Anchorage, I don’t know we didn’t get out
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You could see snow out there, out the window but they didn’t let us out, something
went on up front, and in the first-class section I don’t know who was in the first-class section, but
I wasn’t
(46:00)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I know that, anyway we go and then flew from there to Hawaii, and I think he name
was Al it seems like, anyway he kept talking about Mai Tai’s, and I never had a Mai Tai, so we
were gonna get Mai Tai’s and oh we got to Hawaii at 3:00 in the morning, and bars were all
closed so we didn’t get any Mai Tai’s, and we flew, I think we stopped again, I’m thinking we
stopped, we either stopped on Okinawa or Guam,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I can’t remember which one, I mean Guam was, I can’t remember, we stopped on
Okinawa or Guam and we did get out of the aircraft but we couldn’t take pictures of the flight
line because they’re active, I didn’t know we could take pictures of the flight line, well we
�couldn’t, we were confined into this little area and it was hot and they put us back on the plane
and we went to Vietnam,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, and where did you land in Vietnam?
Veteran: Tonsonut
Interviewer: Okay that’s outside of Saigon, alright, what’s your first impression of Vietnam
when you get there?
Veteran: Alright, I come from Germany and then come through the states, and come through
Fort Sill, and it’s still springtime, I’m not really acclimatized to hot weather, you think about
Germany where you can wear a coat every day,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And not feel uncomfortable, first thing was the heat,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So they roll ahead, these roll upstairs that came in and the first thing they open the
doors and the heat just comes in, whoosh, that’s the first thing, then the stink it smelled like, and
you don’t notice it so much anymore cause they built in a lot of the marshes around our beaches,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It used to be like when we’d go to Myrtle Beach you get down near the coast you had
that rotten vegetation smell,
(48:04)
Veteran: I mean again they filled in a lot of those and they have condominiums and stuff in there
now so you don’t have that smell but, that’s what it was like,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, that’s the closest I can come to describing it, but it was a distinct odor, and the
other thing about that, later you got used to that and it didn’t bother you, you weren’t so much
aware of it but you still could smell the villages and the people, villages you could, was a
different smell,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But that hit you, and instantly you were wet, we had to walk 100 meters, and have a
formation 100 meters away from the plane roughly, and you thought you were gonna die from
breathing the hot air coming in your lungs and I was constantly, I was wet, totally,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Sweating, and that little walking struggling with my duffel bag anyway, then they put
us, put us on I can’t remember, buses, put us on buses, and we went to,
Interviewer: Usually its Long Binh or Bien Hoa,
Veteran: That was at, Tan Sonh Nhut was right by Bien Hoa,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: We went to Long Binh, to the processing company,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And these buses had the windows, they had, grates over the windows, and the glass was
mostly knocked out, they’ve been in rock fights I reckon,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t know, anyway, but we made it over there alright, went to the replacement
company and they did this and they did that, main thing we do is went into the officer’s club and
drank beer,
Interviewer: Right, now did you have orders yet for a particular unit or?
Veteran: No
Interviewer: Were you gonna get those,
Veteran: That’s where I got them,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: They gave us our clothes, we had some briefings I don’t remember much what, like I
say most of the things was,
(50:01)
Veteran: Most of the officers went to the house just to drink beer
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And it was, we got two pair of boots and, four sets of uniforms, whatever else we got I
don’t remember, don’t remember, and then, hell I remember what they gave me, because I
�almost lost it, anyway, we moved us then to the, next day, moved us to Bien Hoa, which was the
rear area for the 101st at that time,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we had P-training, country training and basically it was to allow you to acclimatize
to the area, but they also had some other things, they had some displaces booby traps and
different things, scenarios and, about ambushes and stuff like that,
Interviewer: Did they teach you anything about the local culture or how to behave there or what
to stay away from?
Veteran: No
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Don’t remember it,
Interviewer: Alright
Veteran: If they did, I don’t remember it,
Interviewer: Alright
Veteran: Having said that, it would have been a waste of time, frankly for 101st it was a waste of
time, most of us anyway
Interviewer: Because 101st wasn’t operating in populated areas or?
Veteran: No, we weren’t, most, well there were a few units that were, but I never was,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, I don’t remember anything,
Interviewer: Okay, just asking
Veteran: If they did, I forgot it but,
Interviewer: Alright,
Veteran: They taught us how to shoot M16, and I remember that well, I remember we were, they
taught us the point and shoot method, it was a NCO, this bug black NCO from Fort Benning and
I don’t know if he developed it, but he was the one that instructed us, and he was showing us
how to shot, basically M16 is a straight line, the whole thing comes back in a straight line, so all
you do is, you’re used to pointing things,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: you grab, the front grip and your rifle and you point and pull the trigger, and where
you’re pointing is where its gonna go, it’s pretty accurate, really for close shooting its very
accurate,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: and he talked, we had to think about shooting laying down and we did it in the daytime,
we did it in the night, they threw, we threw hand grenades, don’t remember much else besides
that, I mean there’s some things I remember, I remember the NCO, we got there at night and
they had, a female officer I think she was a nurse but I wouldn’t swear to it, a female officer
showed up, a more senior officer at least a major, major lieutenant colonel,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Something she had wings, but anyway and this guy was instructing us, telling us before
it’d been all men and he was talking about, you lay down like this and you couldn’t see, put one,
one ball on top of the other would, as he, somebody was, one of ‘em whispered to him and said
you put on testicle on top of the other, anyway I remember that to this day.
Interviewer: Alright, so you’ve got your, your sort of orientation,
Veteran: Right, yup,
Interviewer: And now where was the 101st operating the time you went there?
Veteran: In the, they, at that time they were having, hamburger hill I guess,
Interviewer: Okay and for people who aren’t aware of the nickname, what part of South Vietnam
was that in?
Veteran: Very, almost in, in I Corps, north, northern part of South Vietnam,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Northwestern Part of South Vietnam,
(54:00)
Interviewer: Yeah, kind of, of in, in the mountains, kind of close to the border,
Veteran: Yes
Interviewer: With Laos,
�Veteran: That’s very much so,
Interviewer: Okay, and Hamburger Hill, the major battle was very costly that went on for an
extended period of time, so that’s going on when you get there?
Veteran: I don’t know if it was or not,
Interviewer: Or,
Veteran: I wasn’t, I wasn’t personally listening to the news okay,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: I don’t know when it,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: I mean I just know that it was happening because I ended up being a replacement for
Hamburger Hill,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And that was one of the motivating factors for getting me,
Interviewer: Okay so what unit of the 101st were you assigned to?
Veteran: Well, we went, let me finish my story,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: By going north, we end up, we go, we fly up to Cam Ranh Bay I think, we fly to Cam
Ranh Bay,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then we have a truck to go up to Camp Eagle,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I had my, I had my helmet in my bag with my stuff and it got switched with
somebody else’s, and they, somebody had to find it then we got it switched out, anyway, it got
switched, got straightened out, so I ended up with a helmet and didn’t have to go the whole year
without a helmet, which is a good thing probably, although I never got hit on my head, but went
to, we flew up to, to camp, no we drove up from Cam Ranh Bay to Camp Eagle,
�Interviewer: That’s kind of a long trip isn’t it? Cause you got to go over, through, or did you, or
through Da Nang, cause Da Nang is closer to Hue, Phu Bai where Camp Eagle is, now you could
have, there is, you could take highway 1, you could drive from Cam Ranh Bay,
Veteran: Well let me, now I’m not sure,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I know we drove for a ways,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: And I was thinking it was Cam Ranh Bay that we were at,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Cause coming back out, I know coming back from, coming back from R and R, we
land, I land, ended up landing at Cam Ranh bay and caught a flight,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Up to Eagle
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Because we went out over the, I think it was in, I don’t remember,
Interviewer: Driving from Da Nang was pretty common, driving from Cam Ranh was a lot less
common because Cam Ranh Bay was pretty far away,
Veteran: It might have been, might have been Da Nang I don’t know,
Interviewer: But anyway, a place on the coast,
Veteran: We drove
Interviewer: And you drove,
Veteran: We drove in a truck and we, yeah anyway, we went up there, so I got into, I remember
spending the night there and reported to the, DIVARTY, I don’t remember where to,
Interviewer: Divisional Artillery,
Veteran: Right,
Interviewer: Yeah
�Veteran: And they sent me out, they did whatever paperwork they’re gonna do and, which I
don’t really remember and, and then they sent me, they sent me for a day out to, Currahee on the
valley floor,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then came back and I was assigned to second of the three nineteenth and went up
there and reported in and had to go out to, the colonel was out to Eagles’ Nest and I went there
and he assigned me to, had a choice of being a forward observer or a fire direction officer and I
chose being a fire direction officer, I was really not in great shape, physical shape,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I did that and, I had to fly back, flew to, the battery, bravo battery on Bastogne
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: And I reported to, I reported to Captain Davis and Captain Scales was there already,
because I remember him telling me to go, to go report to him,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So Davis was the commander, but Scales was there,
Interviewer: And was Scales replacing Davis or?
Veteran: Scales was, it was a transition, Scales was going to, but usually you do that with a
ceremony and,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That hadn’t happened yet,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Okay so, I was there and, so I was the fire direction officer, one of the fire directions
officers and JD Caldwell was the other one, and JD was, JD was a good guy, he’s a real right guy
but a good guy, but he was a pot smoker,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, I’m not going to talk about him pot smoking but, he didn’t do it around me, but I
knew he was doing it on the firebase,
Interviewer: Okay
�Veteran: I always thought he did his job, but I was recently talking to one of my fire direction
guys this year in fact, and he said he was never there, he’s always, never in the thing, cause I
would go on, I was there
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He would come on and I’d go to sleep, we were on, we had a rotating schedule, eight on
and eight off,
Interviewer:
Mm-hmm
Veteran: And you’re never, basically you’re working or you’re sleeping,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: Because you never adjust to that schedule,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There’s just no spare time, anyway, but I didn’t,
Interviewer: So, if the officer isn’t there, do the enlisted men just do the work?
Veteran: Yeah, see you had, you had to have a fire direction officer there when the guns, when
they were firing,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And that was, that was a requirement, you could sometimes, they would, if you had a
lot of interdiction fires, fires that you, where you do the mission, you plot them out and they
would just fire them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: On schedule, but other than that, especially if you had a, a contact mission, you had to
have the officer there, he’s basically saying they’ve got his initials on every one of those rounds
that goes out,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And if something goes wrong, he’s the one they’re gonna hank,
(1:00:00)
Veteran: Anyway, where was I, talking about, about getting there,
�Interviewer: You, you got there, you got out to Bastogne and you’re, so this is a firebase, this is
along the, is it like along the one side of the A Shau Valley that its,
Veteran: Yeah, it’s along the east side of A Shau,
Interviewer: Yup
Veteran: It was right across from Hamburger Hill
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We were at about the same altitude, it was maybe a few meters, a few feet shorter,
especially since they blew the top of it off,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But we were at a thousand feet, Keer, he was in the valley floor, Eagle’s Nest was about
twelve hundred feet, and then Airborne, I’m not sure what altitude was for airborne, everyone
was at Tiger Mountain and, before I got there, I think May the twelfth, they had had, they had
been overrun,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and some of my guys were there, they had part of the guns from Bravo up there,
and part of the fire direction team and the whole thing, and anyway, I went to this year, to
reunion, fiftieth reunion in Clarksville where those guys,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: From that base being overrun, but it happened before I got there,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: I was in the battery for four days and we had a sapper attack, you’ll hear about
Bastogne being overrun, and I guess technically we were overrun, I think, I think of being
overrun and that you’re put out of business,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We were never put out of business,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Okay, we had them in the battery area,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But they were never put out of business, I’d gotten off at midnight, though let me back
up a little bit,
(1:02:00)
Veteran: the day before in the afternoon the day before, I’d been out down on the landing pad on
Bastogne
Interviewer: Okay, I’m gonna pause right here because this,
*Screen goes black*
Veteran: What am I gonna talk about?
Interviewer: Okay so you were gonna tell the story for the attack on Bastogne when you were,
Veteran: Okay, on Bastogne, I got to the battery and I reported in, I reported to Captain Davis
who was the battery commander,
Interviewer: Yup
Veteran: Then Captain Scales was also there, and he said report to him,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And Scales says no report to him, Sergeant Brown was there to, the first sergeant,
anyway, and I was the fire direction officer, the other fire direction officer was JD Caldwell,
Interviewer: Right, you talked a little bit about him already, alright
Veteran: And JD was an experienced guy if you read the report, I didn’t realize that he had been
the guy that organized the resistance and organized the, to firebase airborne, he was a guy that
organized everybody and got them going and got them responding to the attack,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So that’s, I didn’t know that, never knew that until just recently,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, he was the other one, and I had been on, we were working eight on and eight
off, I had been on until midnight and I was in bed asleep and he came back there and it’s one,
one-thirty, in that general time frame, I wasn’t really watching my watch, but he said you might,
�might outta get up, we might be being moored, anyway let me go, let me back up because I
didn’t tell you about seeing the guys out, outside the wire,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The night before I’d been down on the, the VIP pad, we had two landing pads, and
Bastogne basically was kind of like that,
(1:04:01)
Veteran: And you had a landing pad down here where the VIP’s came in and the one over here
was a supply pad,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Where all our supplies came in, and then they kinda went up to the right and there was
another hill over there, we were on top of the mountain, we’re on the very top, half way down
between here and the VIP pad was the brigade talk, and there was also an infantry, battalion talk,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There was at least one, there may have been two, but I know there was one, and over
there somewhere they had, ARVN liaison people,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, there were some ARVN’s on the base, anyway I would have been down, and you
have to figure the firebase, there’s not a lot of room,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There’s not a lot of places you can go, and I was down on the, on the VIP chopper, pad,
looking around and I see these two Vietnamese out there, its, the wire’s here and they’re out just
beyond the wire or in the wire, and they saw me looking and they waved at me and I waved back
at them, and I turned to an infantry solider who was standing there and asked him, do we have
Vietnamese working outside the wire, and we look back around there and they’re gone,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And he reported it, he did report it and, and I was green, I was brand new to war,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, that night this happened, and so they, JD came back and told me to get up and
I started getting up and I, I slept in my underwear and I had everything laid out I could get
�dressed in the dark and didn’t have any problem with that getting dressing, but I was, I dressed
and came out before I,
(1:06:00)
Veteran: Before I got out while I was dressing, excuse me, Barroom, Barroom, Barroom, excuse
me, and what they, what had happened was they, there was a guy had thrown three satchel
charges trying to get in, into the commanders, battery commanders, into the hooch,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Our, our, we were set up with a, it was a cut through the top of the mountain,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we had PSP on top of that and sandbags and, and on our end of it we had a
CONEX, one of those small CONEX’s, that had our fire direction stuff in it, our radios and the
two computers set inside there and then the charts were outside there, and then we had it blocked
off except for a doorway, to get through and then we slept behind that and there it was totally
blocked off between us and the, the battery commander, and then, the, everything went wild,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: I mean,
Interviewer: So, sappers had gotten in the wire,
Veteran: The sappers were not only in the wire, they were on, the first one that I know was
killed, was killed right up, over the top of me, almost over the top of me,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It’s like, if this is where I was laying, right over you was where he was killed,
Mm-hmm
Veteran: And when you stood up, I could reach the thing, so it was, distance wise, straight-line
distance is less than ten feet,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, from me
Interviewer: Yeah
�Veteran: But he was on top, we had PSP set up between, but he was, the theory is that he was
coming, to give us one of those satchel charges I don’t know if he was or not but, you didn’t
make it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: DeWitt Williams was captain and he was the artillery liaison officer with the third
brigade, and DeWitt was coming in at that time, had been down in the talk and was coming back
to, to sleep, he was, had been sleeping with,
(1:08:00)
Veteran: The, the battery commander, and, in his hooch,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So he was coming back there to sleep and he saw this guy and he shot him, he also saw
another guy because that night they were having a big poker game at the XO’s hutch, can’t
remember the XO’s name, Tom something or other, maybe Meyer, not sure, anyway our XO, but
they were having a poker game and my chief computer was over there, the guy that, that the
senior fire direction NCO,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Was over there, he was coming back, but DeWitt saw him as he paused on a wall, the
wall that separated us from the battery itself, on top,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Separated the battery, he paused on that and DeWitt shot him through both calves,
alright, so he’s crawling along and we’re in the dark up by the entranceway, I’ve been shot,
where, I don’t know, that sounds odd but it’s really true, so he’s crawling in and he falls off the
door, we come out the door and we had steps, you had a blast wall, and he had steps to go up, up
to the right, up to the top, well he came along right over the door and fell in and broke his
collarbone, so he, so we get him in and he’s sitting there in one of the chairs and he’s counting
his money, and I don’t know how much money had made but he was a big winner in that game,
but he was a loser, I don’t know if he was a loser or not because he got shot through both calves
and he would have been back with us from those wounds, but he broke his collarbone and that
evacuated him back to the states,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(1:10:00)
Veteran: Okay
�Interviewer: Alright, so that’s how this thing starts, so now what happens?
Veteran: We get out, we start changing the thing, we were never none functional, Scales came
into the, he was in the FTC and something came over the wire which I didn’t hear and he ran out
and he, at that point he had his M16 with him, he had the, cover guard, the hand guard on the
front of his M16 was on, he came back later and it was gone, it’d been blown off, he went into
the battery, over to the battery, to the guns,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the first gun, I’m calling it the first gun because it’s the first gun I came to but I
don’t know how they had them numbered, they may have had them numbered in a different way,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: But the gun, when you first, when you went you couldn’t get to the guns unless you
went over the wall but normally you went around by the, between the gun and the, and the
commanders hooch over here, so you went around and you went up, that guy, the gun, the gun
crew was the crew chief was short, a short timer,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we had started out with mortar rounds, or so they thought they were mortar rounds
at least, and he had his crew in the bunker, and Scales ran them all out because the bunkers not
where you wanna be, you need to be out, they had a, a fighting ditch and a parapet, a wall,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They come out and a guy pops up from behind there and shoots a rifle grenade, hits a
guy on the head, on his helmet and killed him, and he shot the next guy with a, his AK-47, with
bullets, killed him and he was shot a number of times
(1:12:00)
Veteran: And this kid ran out to the fighting wall and he laid a satchel charger on that kids leg
and he, his lap and blew his legs off, and our medic was over there treating that guy and they
were firing directly over him, ended up medic, ended up having his ear, ear drums blown out,
couldn’t hear anything, and there’s more about him later, let’s see what did I leave out, the three
blasts that I heard at the very beginning, Scales got out of the hut first,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then those three blasts, the first sergeant was trying to get out behind him, and he
got blown back, all three times, they blew away the blast wall, blast wall was gone but it did, its
purpose was to keep them out of the, out of the bunker,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: First sergeant tore down the wall between us that came out through the fire direction
center, came out through our, our area, they let’s see what else went on that night,
Interviewer: Now did you go to the fire direction center or were you,
Veteran: I went to the fire direction center and we went outside and it was a guy, it was a soldier,
enemy solider that came up, this was, this, there’s a gun parapet here, there’s just a walk way
between us but there’s a wall, but there’s just a walk way between us and then over there was
just with, you went off down the hill but there was a stump there still and this soldier came up
behind that stump, he shot an RPG over our heads which is probably a good thing because it
went over our heads and we, it could easily have killed us,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But it’s like shooting off a rock, a bottle rocket and, everybody was shooting at him and
he after a few minutes, he turned around and walked, went back,
(1:14:00)
Veteran: So, I don’t know if he didn’t, who knows what shape he’s in but,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But he went back, I remember going from there to the, it was a bunker on that side of
the base, on the east side of the base and I remember running from where I was to there and I felt
like one of those cartoon things where you know you are running but it’s like slow motion,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That’s what it felt like, and I was there for a while and things kinda settled down, but
we ended up, it’s interesting, interesting to watch things happen, before that I had noted already
that we had problems with people walking through the concertina wire,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Separating stuff off, there were paths through it
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And I’d, I’d try to get guys to work on it and they, you couldn’t get anybody to
constantly work on those, just stood there and supervised,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Anyway, afterwards you couldn’t get anybody to stop, but we got a fire mission you
gotta come down here, no I’m gonna finish this,
Interviewer: Do you know how many men you’re, they lost in that attack?
Veteran: I think we lost four and I think they lost, we, and in, in our battery, I think it was four
people,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And about eleven wounded, and then we were pretty close matched overall on the
firebase, there were a lot more killed on the firebase but it was a, I walked down to the, walked
down to the VIP pad, halfway down there, there was a human brain lying beside the trail, okay,
looked like intact but its,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Obviously not much in it but walked down to the,
(1:16:00)
Veteran: The pad and on the right side of the pad we had roles of concertina wire there, there was
a human body without a, a brain,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I think that he probably got hit by a fifty caliber, the battery owned a fifty caliber,
usually the infantry used it when they were there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But the battery owned a fifty caliber, they were supposed to have turned it in, but they
didn’t, changed it for sixty, and they got the, we had sixties,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But had that fifty caliber, I think that’s what happened to him,
Interviewer: This was a Vietnamese guy that was hit?
Veteran: Yes,
Interviewer: Okay,
�Veteran: Yes, it was, I don’t think that M60 would do that, but then you never know, there were,
you know you looked at the people, the, looking at the wounds that was my first experience
looking at wounds, it looked like little dark spots,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: About that big, about the end of your finger, on the other side it was huge,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They blew, blew the back out, we had it, we had, we killed at least two in the battery
area, it may have been more than that but I remember the two for sure, and then we lost, lost two
dead and several wounded, it seems like we lost up to four but I can’t remember for sure right
now,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: The field, first sergeant was wounded,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He was a, a, your field first sergeants like the, he ran the guns,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The XO runs the guns, the field first sergeant was his senior NCO, it’s all the, all the
gun sergeants report to him and they’ve got there crew, yeah the satchel charge went off beside
him, I think he probably lost some fingers but he wanted to be carried down on a stretcher, but
we put everybody on the VIP pad who had to be evacuated, and he wanted to be carried down
but the stretcher was down there already on somebody else on it, we got mad and got up and
walked down, showed them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, that’s the last I saw of him we had a new one later,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: But
Interviewer: So now you know you’re at war,
Veteran: Knew we were at war, it changed things too, they tell you, they tell you things they told
us when we came through different, we had a medic talk to us, we, Betty I think was the one that
told us this, said that you won’t believe your eyes, you won’t believe your eyes, you’ll check
everything, you’ll check everything, fell everything and check everything and I thought when
�she said it, this is not gonna be true, this is crazy, but when you actually, happened you didn’t
believe your eyes,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You felt everything okay, right here you know
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: you had to feel it as well and, and everything stopped, everything’s everyone,
everything stopped you were on a, on an adrenaline high, your adrenaline was there, you’d been
up for twenty-four hours roughly, and you were just on an adrenaline high until, until it stopped
sending you, go to sleep, well after, after the everything stopped, been stopped for thirty minutes
or so, then we could get medivacs in and had to been, I think it had to been thirty minutes at least
since the last round, before we get a medivac in, but we got all kinds of heli-, I think, helicopters
coming in, in and out of that VIP pad everybody running over there and get off and walk around
the base a little bit,
(1:20:00)
Veteran: And you’re back on so they could write up, get write up for a medal, it’s how they got
their medals, you think I’m kidding but I’m not,
Interviewer: No, that’s,
Veteran: You think I’m kidding but I’m not kidding, I don’t know how much money we spent if
you think about, now think about economics, I don’t know much money we spent just on, on
helicopter fuel just to get those VIP’s and get their,
Interviewer: Okay, so you get an air medal for flying in a place that’s a combat zone or,
Veteran: No
Interviewer: Where fighting is taking place,
Veteran: No, the way,
Interviewer: Or is it a combat infantry badge they’re after or?
Veteran: I don’t know, no I, seriously they probably put themselves in for a silver star, Okay, I’ll
tell you a story about that in a minute
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t know
�Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: what medals they put themselves in for, I really don’t but they came, that’s if you got a
desk job how are you gonna get a medal,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Alright, if you’re a staff officer, how are you gonna get a medal, and I’ll tell ya, another
anecdote when were off the air about someone who’s here
Interviewer: Alright, but in the meantime, you have the VIP’s going up and the wounded get
evacuated, and how much longer did you stay at that base after that event?
Veteran: Several months
Interviewer: Okay, so how do things change or what, what comes next now after?
Veteran: We had another attack later, we’ll let me tell you the rest of this story,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We pilled the bodies up on a, a cargo net, the Vietnamese bodies, I didn’t take any
pictures, I got pictures, actually pictures of some of the Vietnamese piled on a cargo net, I didn’t
take any pictures of American dead or wounded but I did take picture of Vietnamese wounded,
dead,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Didn’t take wounded but, they, they pile them up on a cargo net and,
(1:22:00)
Veteran: They haul that thing over the jungle and dropped them way they thought, intelligence
had that that’s the way they were gonna go, leave to the east of us,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I told you about the VIP’s command,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Well we had this helicopter come in and this guy got off and he didn’t have anything on
his jungle fatigues, he walked, didn’t have a hat on, he walked to the top of the hill which was
where we were, looked around like this, turned around, got back in his helicopter and left, three
months later one of the guys got, and at that time there was a Navy jet bombing to the east of us,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t know what he was bombing, I mean I have no idea, but when he, one of our
guys got a letter from his mother, it contained a newspaper clipping, air power saves
paratroopers, ya right,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The other thing was, today and the way we were fighting today, they fight a lot at night,
they have night-vision goggles and things where you can see at night, well we didn’t have those,
we fought, with, with our eyes, but we also had flares so we lit the night up,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We had flares from our guns, we had illumination rounds, they had flares from aircraft
you had hand flares, and from our base, the next morning from our base all the way to the ocean
was a line of parachutes from the flares that we had had,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You could see them it’s just like a, like, it’s almost like a, you think of an airshow, you
know with the balloons, it’s kinda like that, but it, these were just gonna fall somewhere, it was
a, it was, interesting night I’ll tell you what, and I have to think,
(1:24:00)
Veteran: Scales, I’m glad Scales was there, I thought Scales, I had blocks get, Davis out of my, I
think Davis probably had a, a nervous breakdown
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I think but I don’t know, I had blocked him out of my memory, I didn’t remember him
period,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Until I, I was talking, we were talking about the battle when I was visiting with the, the
two guys in my fire direction center,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Tom Jenkins and, and Michael Delaney or Stump, were two of the guys in our fire
direction center, and they were at this other meeting, the one from airborne, being overrun, we
were talking about this and they were telling me, remind me of Davis, I had, I, still there’s a
vague memory,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Not very clear, not something I kept around but, Bob got a Silver Star, and then he was,
he was the battery commander and he’s now a retired two-star general,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And shows up on Fox and Friends every once and a while, Fox News,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I saw him
Interviewer: Yeah, I remember him, and he was something of a talking head during the Iraq war
and,
Veteran: He had, is, I just saw him recently like within the week, I think, on, the noon thing that
they did, anyway he’s one of their talking heads, so, but he deserved that Silver Star,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He’s one of the few that deserved a Silver Star, we had another one later, we was, we
were preparing to leave, and we had another separate attack which we call in the wire,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They had two mad minutes, one right after the other, had a mad minute, they reloaded,
and had another mad minute,
(1:26:00)
Veteran: And caught more people coming in the wire,
Interviewer: Okay, now explain for general audience what a mad minute is,
Veteran: Mad minutes, planned time when, on, on command or on signal everybody fires, they
throw grenades, they fire everything for a minute,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Then it stops, so I, at that point I was in bed also, this was 3:00 in the morning maybe, it
was before 5:00,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Most things happen about 5:00 in the morning okay, right about the time the sun’s
fixing to come up,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They wanna hit right about then, and that’s when, usually when it happens, but I was in
bed and I heard the mad minute and I heard the second mad minute, and then I heard a machine
gun when the second one stopped, the machine gun didn’t,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I was awake and ready to go, that’s just conditioning,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And it, again we caught them out of the wire the second time, caught them in the wire
before they got into us, the first time they were already there, they were,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Some, my guys, one of my guys speculated that they were already there, that they were
part of the ARVN detachment, and I can’t tell you there were no okay, I wouldn’t tell you that
they’re not, but who knows,
Interviewer: Okay, so you mean for the first attack, when they were already inside,
Veteran: Yes, for when they were in the wire,
Interviewer: But that of course was also the thing where the concertina wire wasn’t in
particularly good condition and so forth the first time,
Veteran: No, this was internal, now not the external,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Because we had it around the outside,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: But, but you don’t want people running around,
(1:28:00)
Veteran: you want to guide where they go,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And so, just the internal concertina wire to, to guide people, yeah,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: That wasn’t in as good a shape,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Anybody, you could get them to stop, it could get them to stop, we’ll put up a little
more concertina, it’s a, it’s a motivating factor I’ll tell you what,
Interviewer: But the second time though, now was the second mad minute, was the idea there
that, that if,
Veteran: I don’t know,
Interviewer: You had the first mad minute they might think that,
Veteran: I don’t know, they’d have a mad minute, they’d have a plan one, and I don’t know who
came up with the idea, there was an infantry company,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That was providing security,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And I, I really don’t but it caught them off guard,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They had one than they waited,
Interviewer: Yup,
Veteran: Then the second one, and after the second one was over, there was a guy in a hole that
they’d seen go into a foxhole, it was a, a listening post that we’d had down outside the wire,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Was outside the wire but it was within sight of our bunkers, and they’d had a listening
post out there, but they’d recall people, didn’t have anybody in it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: It was empty, but the guys that had occupied it on that section had a bunker up there
they were in the bunker and I saw this guy go in, so I was over there and he says, hey lieutenant
we got on down here stuck in this, that, stuck in this hole, so we tried to get him to chieu hoi,
cause you know how much Vietnamese we knew which was about chieu hoi,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, so we yelled chieu hoi, chieu hoi, and nothing happens to them, so I grabbed,
I had a, a M79 grenade launcher, grabbed one from somebody,
(1:30:00)
Veteran: I don’t remember who I got it from, only had three rounds, and we had our kamo guy
was named Marion and Marion shot the M79 all night long for the whole time we was out there,
okay, so I figure Marion knows how to shoot this thing, so I told him, Marion put a round in that
hole down there, he took the M79, shot it and if the hole is right down here like in the parking
lot, he shot like we has shooting for the ball field okay, he didn’t have a clue how to shoot it
except to pop,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, I took it away from him, and there was, we had a behind our fire direction center,
we had a, a radio relay from special forces, two off, two NCOs,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And one of the guys took it and shot direct fire at the hole, hit the rim and this guy
comes out and he’s not chieu hoiing, he’s running, he’s gonna go home and he runs down and up
the other side, and he was running and he turned to run along the woods, well everybody, there is
no shooting going on, no artillery going on, so this guy is running and everybody is sitting there,
so everybody shoots him, it’s like a shooting gallery,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: pap, pap, pap, maybe a hundred guys shooting at him, I don’t know, a bunch, and of
course he’s, still trying to struggle so he’s, he’s down and let me tell you one thing, I don’t ever
wanna be shot by a high-powered rifle,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The human body wasn’t made to be shot by a, high-powered rifle, it acts like a rag doll,
really,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The guy was still struggling, wiggling, trying to crawl, and,
�(1:32:00)
Veteran: The SF sergeant shot him again with a M79, he stopped,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And everybody cheered, sounds cruel, sounds inhumane, but that’s kind of the stage we
were at,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We were kind of at an inhumane stage,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: We were, we were standing over there and I was, Scales in that same area, and Scales
was behind me, we were about this far apart,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Like you were Scales and I was standing here and we had been firing, having a
blocking fire, being fired into the jungle down there, and it’d been going on, a round went off, a
piece of shrapnel flew by my head, just, from this way, actually more this way, by my head and
there was a guy standing to the left over here and it hit him flat on the, on the leg, it was a piece
of shrapnel big as my, big as my arm,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: About like that and if it had hit him sideways it would have cut his head, his leg off,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: If it had hit me, it would cut my head off, that’s fate we stopped that from firing, we
stopped, called a, called a halt to that,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: But you, have the feeling that somebody’s looking out for you, you know you get that,
the other thing you learn quickly is that no matter what you do, you become a fatalist to a point,
no matter what you do, you can’t protect yourself,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So you do what you can do and then you let fate take its place,
�Interviewer: It’s an effect that a lot of sliders talk about, if they see combat then you adjust to it
in some way so you can function, do your job,
(1:34:03)
Veteran: Well part of the thing is, it’s like fear, when I first got over there I was afraid alright,
and you can’t live in fear, you can’t function with fear, and eventually you either adjust to it or
you go crazy I guess, I don’t know, I adjusted to it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Doesn’t mean you’re not cautious, doesn’t mean you don’t do everything you can to
protect yourself, one of the things I did was make rules, I had rules about things, if I thought it
was bad, it was bad till I proved it wasn’t bad, okay that one of my rules it’s still one of my rules,
if I think it’s bad, its bad till I found out it’s not bad,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Or questionable, if it’s questionable its bad, yeah, let me think what else there to tell
you about,
Interviewer: Well, anything else from the time that, that you, you’re Bastogne, I mean what,
anything else from that or are those really the main things that stand out?
Veteran: That’s pretty much the main thing that was, we didn’t have, I don’t think we had any
wounded, if we did it was few,
Interviewer: Okay, another, now did you have a lot of fire missions from there?
Veteran: Oh, we fired all the time,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We, we, I was over there while we were on Bastogne, we fired the one millionth round,
before we left, we fired the two millionth round,
Interviewer: Just from that battery?
Veteran: No just,
Interviewer: Or in Vietnam
Veteran: This, it probably was in Vietnam, I don’t know what, it was in Vietnam
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: The two millionth round, yeah, but that was, I mean that’s, and it’s a lot of territory if
you think about it, it’s a lot of territory,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That’s a lot of bullets too,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Yeah, we fired a lot, we did
Interviewer: Okay, and then at what point do you leave that or where do you go next?
Veteran: When, one of the things, one of the projects they had,
(1:36:00)
Veteran: Of course they had the highway one, that, that the Navy, the Seabees built, Seabees
built highway one along the coast,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: Just outside of Camp Evens,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It went north I guess all the way, I don’t know all where it went, to Saigon at least,
Interviewer: Well the original highway one goes all the way back to the French, Seabees
probably improved it,
Veteran: Well they, they paved it, okay
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Let me just say this, they paved highway one, so the Army engineers had a project
where they were, we were gonna keep the A Shau Valley open year-round even during the
monsoon,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And they paved a road out there okay, and they, they built a fire bade where the road
entered the valley, and some Congressman come over, had a ceremony, had this congressman
and one of them hops in a jeep and they take off down the, the road, that was a hot incident, I
mean you were listening on the radios not here, he’s on the road somewhere, so this wasn’t a safe
area,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: This was, in Vietnam the only place you could count on being safe was what you could
see and control with your M16,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Alright, that was what you owned, nothing more, and it was hard to get that point across
to people but this guy made the trip and he got through, but it rained one time and it washed out
in five places, and they decided that it wasn’t feasible to try to have, try to keep it open,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They also made a base out there, they were gonna move, they moved from Eagle’s Nest
down to this new base I, can’t remember the name of it right now, anyway I’ll think about it, the
name of it but I can’t remember it right now,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: But it was, it was on a mountain, but it was a small, much smaller mountain
(1:38:01)
Veteran: As where the road came out so they could actually get vehicles traffic to that base,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the other thing that happened is the monsoon is, monsoon was beginning, building
up to the monsoon, the canopy comes down somewhat and jungle rats went up the mountain,
jungle rats invaded Eagle’s Nest,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: When I was, when I was in Bastogne, we built bunker bunks, out of ammo boxes, put
four ammo boxes together to make a bunk, and we had another one, so I was slept on the bottom
and the other, the other fire direction officer, excuse me, slept on top, an old super, super rat
would come down the wall, the dirt wall, I’d be a sleep, it’d jump, hit on me, and bounce off to
the other wall, so you’re lying there at night and all of a sudden somebody jumps on you and
you’re awake and your, you know just not a good time, so finally got a big trap and they sent me
a, a big trap and I caught super mouse, Nice coat I was thinking that, that sure would be a nice, if
I had a bunch of those I could make me a rat coat and get me one of those hats with the big
mirrors on it and be a pimp,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: West Coast,
Interviewer: Well was there only one of them,
Veteran: There was, where you were, they only had one,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: They moved us off though, and moved us off there, they couldn’t keep us resupplied,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, we went to Firebase Blaze and, and at Blaze we, I remember swimming, going
swimming, there was a stream there, and swimming in the river and bathing for about three days,
and then they moved us down to firebase fury, which is farther south, and fury was,
(1:40:00)
Veteran: It’s the only time I came across a, punji pits, they were punji pits with the bamboo
spikes in them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There hadn’t been war down there, I mean we had, it had been occupied at some point,
I don’t know who but not while I was there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: One thing that had happened, it had a infantry patrol in there, somebody had been
wounded and they called in a, a medivac, the medivac didn’t come in but another helicopter did
and he had him throw smoke in the, in the, NVA also threw smoke and he went in on the wrong
smoke,
Interviewer: Oh,
Veteran: Even though they were telling him that’s the wrong smoke, he went in and got shot
down, and there were the remains of that helicopter, it wasn’t right on the base, it was, was just
off it but you could see it, so you’re awake in the morning, every morning you wake up and
you’re outside waiting on somebody to stick their head up right, before dawn,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: At dawn, and then the howler monkeys come in, yes, so you’re already tense, you’re
already tight, and the howler monkey starts making that racket, oh god, oh, ah, they howl in the
evening, and howl, but they really howl in the morning, waking up oh, it’s the only time I heard
howler monkeys, then they moved us from there to, there was a place, so they were gonna put a
�fire base in, and the first of the 506 was doing it and sometime in June I think of ’69, and the
battalion commander was killed, and they put us over there, and I think at that point there were,
put us over there to be bait battery, I always thought they did but it was, turned out that’s the,
that’s when Ho Chi Minh died, when Ho Chi Minh died, they called, called a truce, a unilateral,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Ceasefire,
(1:42:00)
Veteran: It was the honor, they didn’t do it for three days, they didn’t bother us, and then they
moved us from there to Hamburger Hill, and nothing happened on Hamburger Hill it was just a
blown off top of the mountain,
Interviewer: So, when do you think you were there?
Veteran: I can’t tell you exactly,
Interviewer: Okay because it can’t be during the monsoon season,
Veteran: No, it wasn’t because we was, but they were worried about the monsoon coming on,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: But, and there’s two monsoons in the north, I don’t know about the south, but they’re
two monsoons, anyway the, the only thing I remember is it was Sunday because two chaplains
came out,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And had services on Hamburger Hill, and then they moved us from there back to Evans,
we’re at Evans for a while then we had to build up and went to the DMZ, we, we drove up and,
and were lifted onto the firebase Sandy, well, Rings called it Sandy, the 101st renamed it Scotch,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we were up there, the battery commander changed, Scales’ time was up and there
was another, somebody had extended to get command of the battery, and I outranked him
because I was already a captain,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, they moved me into the assistant S-3, which I started, went back to my lock and
worked there,
�Interviewer: Okay, now explain what an S-3 is,
Veteran: Operations, so basically, we had an S-3 who deal with operations, was a Major, and
about, several Captains,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There were assistant S-3’s and what we did is, I assigned fires,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, I cleared fires,
(1:44:00)
Veteran: I’d be sure everybody was doing what they were supposed to be doing, and monitored
the, the, monitored what they were doing, checking their work if necessary and following the
missions, so that’s basically what I did, I was the one that did, that you, monitored everything
really, but when you’d hear the thing come in, if there was any question about anything,
sometimes when, the way that the, it worked, the way they had it setup to work, it was a lot of
safety involved,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, the battery you’ve got, at least when I was there, we had a computer, a guy doing
the, the calculations and you had the, the fire direction officer and the fire direction officer’s
checking the work of the other one, excuse me,
*phone rings*
Veteran: Go away, I don’t want to talk to you, it’s a robo call I guarantee it,
Interviewer: Alright,
Veteran: Anyway,
Interviewer: So,
Veteran: And then, and while that’s going on, you’re sending the computer, computer is a person
not a machine,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, yeah, yup
Veteran: You’d send it to the battalion, and battalion checks it and you, if there’s any
disagreement you worked that out before anything’s ever fired,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then, if there’s any problem with it, or if, if, you have to trust your people, but you
also have to check on ‘em,
Interviewer: Yup,
Veteran: So that goes on to,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, that’s what I did,
Interviewer: Okay, and was that sort of the last part of your tour, was doing that?
Veteran: No, it turned out not to be, I did that and then,
(1:46:00)
Veteran: I was, I went on R and R at Christmas, and came back, came back New Year’s Eve and
on New Year’s Day I went, I was assigned to be the liaison officer for the 2nd of the 506th, that’s
how I got into the Ripcord, I wasn’t really at Ripcord,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I was in the transition into Ripcord, so I can tell you a lot about what happened
there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright because the Rip-, Ripcord itself, I mean they’re trying to establish
it as early as March of, of 1970, so there are several, they don’t actually do it until you’re in
April,
Veteran: No, we didn’t try to establish it in March, I mean they may tell you they’re trying to
establish it in March, let me tell you what happened,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: So, we had, we had Colonel Crowell as the battalion commander, and we had Colonel
Crowell was the battalion commander, Major Koenigsbauer was the infantry S-3,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and, and I was the liaison officer and then we had to transition from Colonel
Crowell, to Colonel Lucas, alright, so, and then we had to change a command and Lucas was in
charge,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So just, in the transition we go out to that, we’re put in three companies of infantry and
to the west of, of
ripcord,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And at that time, I’m out, I didn’t have it listed as Ripcord, I had it listed as Carroll,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I talked to Chuck Hawkins, he says well no, I’m sorry, talked to somebody else,
and they said well Carroll was up here in the north and it was a Marine firebase, that’s true,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I was on it, I saw it, I know about it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I think the Marines named every other firebase they had Carroll alright, and they
didn’t stay named because they changed,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: It was we went on Scotch, on Sandy and they changed it to Scotch,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: One was Scotch, and one was Soda,
(1:48:00)
Veteran: And I don’t, we were on Scotch, anyway Carroll, this thing was named Carroll, so there
were more than one Carol,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I understand that, and I had it still on my map as Carroll, but later after we got there,
they changed it to ripcord,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, so, don’t wanna say anything bad, I’m thinking about what I’m saying, that’s so I
don’t offend West Point Officers because they have thinking it’s not mine, West Point officers
�for the most part are very good and very effective, and most of the Generals are West Point
officers, but, going to West Point doesn’t make you any better than anybody else,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They do take care of each other, but it does ensure a way of thinking that many officers,
many Army people, that was another thing that I was not good at, you’re going this way, and
that’s the way we’re going and that’s it,
*phone rings*
Veteran: That’ll get rid of you totally I hope, anyway, and then you go this way, just, and that’s
the only way you can go, and if this way is, you’re, anyway,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, we get into that about Carroll, ripcord,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We got out there anyway, we were going out there and one of the missions that we had
was, there’s a river,
ripcord’s up here,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There’s a mountaintop going here, there’s a stream here, supposedly that stream had
something in it that would make people sick, supposedly, and then stream, and we were going,
that was one of the reasons for putting people in out there,
(1:50:00)
Veteran: So they had three to three companies they were gonna put in, well we had a good
landing zone on the, at the top and the bottom, but not in the middle, and you’ve got, I’m sitting
in the middle, I’m sitting in, you’ve got a bench seat in the, in the Huey,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I’m sitting in the left door, Colonel Lucas is sitting in the middle, and Colonel
Crowell is sitting in the right door and normally it would have been the S-3 in the middle, but he
didn’t even go because we were already more or less full, he’d have to sit in a jump seat,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Or I would have or something, anyway so we go and Colonel Crowell says we’ll call
the Air Force and get them to bomb it and make it bigger, well that didn’t happen, okay, didn’t
�happen, May, March the 12th, March the 12th, so we’ve got troops in the air, we go in and we try
to get in, you can get in, but you’ve got to hover in,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Which is not a way you want to have to worry about, you didn’t have the glide path,
oaky there was a hole there, but you couldn’t get into it, so we put those alternate, alternate was
to put them on, on Carroll,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Which became Ripcord,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: Put them on there and we got mortared,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We got run off, a couple people killed, and back to eight people and start all over again,
so then we’re gonna have, we got, there was also ARVN, an ARVN insertion at the same time
and that one,
(1:52:00)
Veteran: They found some intelligence, intelligence, intelligence and ARVN don’t go together
but that’s what they found, intelligence, anyway so we’re going, we make a free fire zone, and
you had to do arc lights and stuff like that, for an arc light you had to clear an area three miles
wide and five miles long, and then you can call an arc light on it,
Interviewer: OK
Veteran: B-52 strike, but that and anything else that came up, so the other thing happened was
the weather came in, so the weather didn’t cooperate with us, so instead of being five days, it
was like two weeks,
Interviewer: Yeah cause April 1st was the second time,
Veteran: April 1st was the second time, and so April 1st, who we put troops in, they also have
planned, by this time they’ve decided they’re gonna make this a firebase,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So they’ve got, and the TOC’s gonna go in, and so they’ve got advanced party for the
TOC, Major Laws in one of the last two helicopters, one of the last two helicopters were action
tracks, people going in the artillery for, forward party,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the, the TOC forward party, and then the rest of it was, was the insertion of the
company, company and they go in and, and we’re mortared again, in fact the troops, so here’s
ripcord, and then down the ridgeline is Kaka Bow, Kaka Bow Ridge, runs up to the, same way,
the pilots reported troops in the open, moving up Kaka, along Kaka Bow Ridge toward ripcord,
Okay now in the middle of, a big insertion, and with, and they had a proper artillery preparation,
I did,
(1:54:00)
Veteran: I planned the artillery prep,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The problem was it’s just too big, I mean it was too, and we couldn’t, I couldn’t kill all
the mortars,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And before we had a few places where they could shoot a mortar from, now they had a
lot of places they could shoot a mortar from, you know you just open the canopy up,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So we did ‘em a favor in doing that, anyway, that was a bad day, they were mortared,
some mortars,
Interviewer: Yeah that’s,
Veteran: I lost a lieutenant and a forward observer, that’s another sad story this kid was waiting
to hear, he was waiting to hear about his, I think his third child,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was his third child, one of his children he had a child ready, bout to pop out,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t know waiting to hear about it, he’s on the ground, I'm talking to him from the
air, I told him to be safe, get in a safe place, where you can see but in a safe place, the last heli-,
the last helicopter coming in had Ben Keen, Captain Ben Keen, Charlie battery commander,
second of the 319th, Ben Keen made him move to where he could see better, he was also exposed
when he got blown up,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: By the mortar, blown in half, I didn’t know that until much later which is probable a
good thing, because I'm not in jail,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t think I could have gotten away with shooting him with everybody looking at
me, in self-defense I don’t know, IInterviewer: Yeah, it’s tough
Veteran: I don’t mean to, don’t put that in there, God knows, edit that out, not worth saying,
that’s the way I felt, but
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Ben Keen, I don’t wanna talk about
(1:56:01)
Interviewer: Okay so, and then basically then they, the company that lands walks off that night,
they leave,
Veteran: Carrying a body,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The bodies
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: More than one, yes, they go over to the other hill, the, I don’t remember, the hill to the
southeast,
Interviewer: Maybe one thousand at that point or,
Veteran: I think it was one thousand, I think that’s where it was, I'm pretty sure that’s where they
went, and then that night the recon lieutenant just changed position, changed commanders,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Wilson, this kid Wilson, I don’t remember his first name, teenager had been to recon
platoon leader alright,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And he was, he did well, he did, he was a good platoon leader, operated well alone he
was a, anyway this other guy Wilson who was new to that and he wasn’t new to the country
company, he was, he’d been there a while, but he took over the recon platoon and he was talking
about, he had been given orders by Colonel Lucas to go sneak and peak on ripcord, that’s a
stupid thing to do, you just got your ass run off and you’re gonna send some people, sneaking
and peak back over there, I'm sorry but that’s my opinion and Wilson thought he was gonna be
killed and he was killed, I mean it’s like a death sentence, that, that always didn’t make, several
things that Lucas did didn’t make sense to me, one was why didn’t he divert to ash and trash
when you get on a hot LZ because they’re in the way,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They’re not part, they, it’s just stupid stuff that’s in the way,
(1:58:00)
Veteran: You don’t need them, divert those two things, we can, reschedule it, anyway, I have to
leave that like me being green and the, well Bastogne, and it was, he’d been, he’d been in
country six months, but he hadn’t been
Interviewer: He had no combat experience, he was not a ground combat commander
Veteran: He was good about wanting you to have your ironed clothes ironed
Interviewer: Yup
Veteran: And that was one of the issues he and I had, they had, they decided that we could
always, they washed our clothes, you sent our clothes in the laundry to be washed, just see we
had clean clothes but they were wrinkled alright, so they decided they could iron clothes, they
could do ten sets per, for the battalion, so he gave it over to the Sergeant Major, the Sergeant
Major did the staff, and the First Sergeants, staff I don’t know if it include, including the
company commanders, and the First Sergeant, alright, but that let the artillery liaison out,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Well you gotta go to your battalion, he’s got the same problem you got, he’s already got
that done over there alright,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Well you could iron them, I ain’t ironing them okay, that’s not gonna happen, it didn’t
happen, but that was one of the things, alright so now I'm like I said I’ve always been kind of a
slob but I'm, oh well, anyway, I'm not walking around in ironed fatigues right, the rest of his
people are, cause now they got that, so that was, that was one of the things,
�(2:00:01)
Veteran: That, one of our content points of contention, when it, when I told him that when we
were doing the planning for this mission we went up and met with the ARVN’s, Don Hi I
believe, and he was talking with the ARVN commander and he was talking about ammunitions,
well we need more ammunition, and so Lucas volunteers to give him some of ours, I said sir you
can’t give those to him, well I'm allocated so many rounds and I can give him some of that, I said
sir, you’re allocated, but it belongs to that battery commander down there that has it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You’re allocated it for who are used, but you can’t give it away here like that, he didn’t
understand, maybe he did understand he’s too, never mind,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But that was, so then he, we got, he got ordered to go to the field, move out, we moved
out to Gladiator, he got ordered to go out there and we got our packs down, got our packs on the
tawk, we’re going out next morning, to have our packs in there that night, and I had, when I
came through, central issue, I would, I had, you were issued two canteens, well I got one regular
canteen with canteen cup, the whole thing, and, and the other one I got was a two quart canteen,
where it had a cover and a strap and also could be put on the belt, but that’s what I was issued, so
I had that hanging on, I had my, my canteen on my web belt, but I had that on my pack, he
decided he wanted it, he liked it, we’ll get you one, well, there wasn’t any to get okay, so I go
back and there's my pack without my canteen on it,
(2:02:01)
Veteran: he’s got my canteen, he took my can, they took my canteen and gave it to Lucas, I
wasn’t real thrilled with that okay, you have to think about the situation too, you’re in Vietnam
what else they gonna do to you,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They’re not going to shot at you in jail,
Interviewer: Yeah, alright now this tape is about up,
Veteran: Okay
Interviewer: So I'm going to stop it here
Veteran: You might say Lucas and I didn’t see eye-to-eye,
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_HinesR2319V1
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Hines, Raymond (1 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2019
Date
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2019-07-26
Description
An account of the resource
Raymond Hines was born on April 6, 1944 in Wellford, South Carolina, and graduated high school in 1962. Hines received his draft notice in 1965 and chose to enlist in the Army. He completed Basic Training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Devens, Massachusetts, where he became a Morse Intercept Operator. He also trained in Artillery OCS at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, before transferring to Fort Bliss, Texas, as part of the Air Defense for only two months before being transferred to Wurzburg Germany. From Germany, Hines was deployed to Vietnam with the 2nd of the 319th as a Fire Direction Officer and proceeded to report to the Bravo Battery at Firebase Bastogne. He saw heavy combat with this unit. While in Vietnam, Hines also worked as an assistant S-3 fireman, and a Liaison Officer for the 2nd of the 506 at Fire Base Ripcord. After taking some additional advanced artillery courses, he deployed to Nuremberg Germany with the 3rd of the 70th House Artillery before transferring to the 7th Corps Artillery as a Nuclear Release Authentication System Officer. He would later return to Europe after recieveing his veterinarian degree in the United States to care for military service animals.
Creator
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Hines, Raymond
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d781ecc5617d42b8d1dff431d34c0af7.mp4
000ad324421ffa2f0bc6c2302d5b98e4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a2486c1588d01fa83a1479913d365c5.pdf
5c8b685d63cfc0848f84c9c061ef9844
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Paul Hansmann
Interview Length: (1:30:51)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: We’re talking today with Paul Hansmann of Coons- Coon Rapids, Minnesota.
The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History
Project and we're conducting this interview at the 2015 Ripcord Reunion. Okay Paul can
you start off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were
you born?
I was born in August 28, 1948 in Cincinnati, Ohio.
Interviewer: Alright did you grow up in Cincinnati or did you move around?
I was there until I was in fifth grade and then we moved to Springfield, Illinois and I stayed in
Springfield and graduated from high school in Springfield.
Interviewer: Okay and what did your family do for a living when you were growing up?
My dad was a baker and he worked for a commercial- commercial bakery all of his life. And my
mom was a stay-at-home mom most of the time, later on she went to work for the Salvation
Army.
(1:11)
Interviewer: Okay and so what year did you finish high school?
I graduated from High School in 1966.
Interviewer: Okay and then what did you do after graduation?
I went- went to college in Cedarville, Ohio which is a Baptist College. And I went two years
there and then I dropped out of college there and went back to Illinois and got a job in the bakery
�and worked in the bakery for a while and that's when, that would’ve been 1968 and my wife and
I got married in ‘68. She was a, I met her at college, and we got married in Iowa, she came from
a farm background and we were married in- in Iowa in 1968.
(2:11)
Interviewer: Okay, now were you aware of the possibility that once you're out of college
you might get drafted?
I was aware of that and I didn't, kind of a little bit of a rebellious part of my background and- and
I didn't necessarily give a whole lot of thought to it, but I thought no after I get married I
probably won't get drafted so, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah and if that had been a few years earlier you would have been right,
cause that was an exemption there for a while. Alright now well when do you get your draft
notice?
I got my draft notice in… that, we got married in June of ’68. I got my draft notice probably in
September timeframe of ‘68. And was told to report I think it was the 1st of February, end of
January or 1st of February of ‘69.
(3:22)
Interviewer: Okay now did you go through a physical as part of the, this process?
Yes.
Interviewer: Alright and where did you do that?
In St. Louis Missouri.
Interviewer: Okay and when you went for the physical did you notice anybody trying to
defeat the system or get disqualified or were you all cooperating?
�Pretty much all cooperating, I- I didn't notice… it seemed like that most of us were, if we had an
ailment or something like that you tended to hide it rather than play it up. See that was from my
perspective anyway that's what it seemed like.
Interviewer: Alright how much did you know about the war in Vietnam at that time?
Not very much.
(4:11)
Interviewer: Okay.
Really not, my dad was a World War II veteran and so that's probably why it didn't bother me
one way or another, if it was my duty to serve then so be it.
Interviewer: Yeah and were you aware at all of the anti-war movement going on?
Oh yes, yeah there was a, there were, the college that I went to out in Ohio was very close to
Antioch University and of course they were… me being from a Baptist background and them
being from Antioch it was, there was a lot of drugs at Antioch, and long hairs, and war
protesters, and so we saw a lot of that.
Interviewer: Yeah but they were sort of the other guys.
Yeah, they were different.
Interviewer: Yeah, Cedarville and Antioch are about as opposite as you could get probably
at that point.
Yeah, we were.
(5:06)
Interviewer: Alright yeah okay so you know, you go, you go to the physical, where do you
go for basic training?
�Went from St. Louis where we got the physical and the swore in procedure, and went to Fort
Bragg, North Carolina.
Interviewer: Okay.
For basic training.
Interviewer: Alright when you got to Fort Bragg, I mean where there many people from…
were you drafted officially out of Ohio as opposed, or- or out of Illinois?
Out of Illinois.
Interviewer: Okay and they sent you to Fort Bragg.
Right.
Interviewer: Were there a lot of guys from Illinois there or?
Not a lot but I had one very close friend who he and I went the same church when we were in
high school, and he went to a different high school but we were in the same church together so
we were in youth group and stuff together and- and we got drafted on the same day. He was also
married so that, we had that in common and- and so we went through basic training together.
(6:07)
Interviewer: Alright when you get to Fort Bragg what kind of reception do you get?
Loud and proud, a lot of screaming, a lot of yelling. February and in Fort Bragg, North Carolina
it was cold and sandy and, but it was a lot of screaming and yelling and kicking things, and trash
cans bangin’, and you just kept quiet.
Interviewer: Right, welcome to the army right away.
That's right.
Interviewer: Now do you have a few days of processing before the regular training starts?
�None that I remember, they kind of mixed that in as things went along. Spent a lot of time doing
push-ups and...
Interviewer: Alright so they, okay because it seems to vary from place to place from what
kind of experience you get. Of course, Bragg is home of like 82nd Airborne so there may be
some of that rubbing off there, I don't know. Okay so they're working you out pretty hard,
did you have any idea of what to expect when you got there?
Absolutely none.
(7:12)
Interviewer: Alright.
I had heard horror stories but really didn't- didn't- didn't have any idea of firsthand of what to
expect. So, it was kind of a rude awakening, people yelling at you, and they- they were more
interested in getting you into physical condition and- and which that didn't intimidate me at all
because I’d played basketball in college and so I was in pretty decent shape and…
Interviewer: Okay, so how long did it take you to adjust to the army way of doing things?
Not very long they- they saw to it that you just kept your mouth shut and did what you were told
and that's exactly what the goal was, is to react to orders not with a questioning mind but with
just a blind following.
(8:15)
Interviewer: Alright and then aside from the- the PT part, what does the training consist of
in basic?
Weapons training, familiarizing yourself with- with the language, the phonetic alphabet, the map
reading skills, a lot of that kind of stuff. All different types of weapons that- that you would use
later, how to talk on radio, how to wire explosives, a lot of different things.
�Interviewer: Okay, now the drill instructors, what proportion of them do you think had
been to Vietnam?
Darn close to 100 percent.
Interviewer: Okay did anybody say anything about Vietnam or was it just all by the book?
(9:12)
No, it was, there was a lot, especially in the harassment stages as they were training us, there was
a lot of them that you know we talked about, “if you don't do this, you're not gonna survive.”
You know and- and because that was the- the thought process at that point in time is that
everybody was going, you know you were here, you were going to Vietnam period.
Interviewer: Okay cause early ‘69 is about the peak in terms of American numbers in
Vietnam and we go down after that, but they were training a lot of people at that point.
Yep.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay so you do that and were there other guys who were having trouble
with the training or would wash out or get put behind?
Yeah there were quite a few, a lot of the guys were out of shape, somewhat soft, and then you
had guys on the other end of the spectrum that were, it was a cakewalk for ‘em. So, it was, you
had some on both sides but not a whole lot washed out. They kind of got ‘em back around and
got ‘em in better shape.
(10:20)
Interviewer: Alright how long did the training last?
Basic training was eight weeks.
Interviewer: Okay, and what did they did with you next?
�We went to Fort McClellan, Alabama for advanced infantry training and it was a beautiful
scenario. Let me backup just a little bit, toward my, toward the end of my training in basic, I
contracted double pneumonia. So, they took me into the hospital and temperature was around
105 and they packed me in ice and got my fever down and everything, so my lungs were all full
and I was pretty sick boy for a while. And I spent a week in a hospital, and they wanted to keep
me there, and I talked them into letting me out because I knew if I stayed more than a week, they
would make me go through, back through basic training again and recycle. And the only thing I
really had to complete yet was an ending physical training test, a PT test they called it. So, I had
to pass it in order to graduate. All my test scores and everything had all been completed and they
were fine. So, I had to go out and go do a PT test and I still had double pneumonia actually. And
running a mile when you've got double pneumonia it as a challenge believe me.
(12:00)
Interviewer: Alright.
But we went from there to Fort McClellan, Alabama and it was basically more of the same- more
of the same training, not quite as much yelling, and more in- in-depth training I would say.
Interviewer: Are you getting more into tactics and that kind of thing now or?
Yeah, we were a lot more map-reading, observation, learning how to navigate, we had night
navigation courses, and survival training that type of thing.
Interviewer: Did they make any effort to sort of simulate conditions in Vietnam?
They tried to you know as much as you can with Alabama and its totally different country, but it
was, they did pretty well with that.
Interviewer: What would they do in terms of that, what would they try to show you?
�They would set up booby traps, punji pits, those kind of things. How to- how to be aware of your
surroundings and- and look for certain things, what trails, you know they would look like in
Vietnam and- and what to look for, and that type of thing.
(13:21)
Interviewer: Okay and at a certain point you wind up getting selected to go to- to NCO
school, now was that a something, decision that was made back in basic or was that at AIT,
or how did that happen?
I think that was at AI- AIT and they had a battery of tests and it, they selected people based on
test scores out of it. And in different areas, not only physical test scores but also on aptitude and
decision-making and those type of thing. So, I was selected to go to NCO school. I had the
opportunity to turn it down if I wanted to but my logic at that point in time was I had done the
calculation on, okay what is, how much time does it take for each one of these, and I thought that
it would be a lot better to spend as much time as I could in the States and be able have my wife
come down and- and live off post and then go to Vietnam so that when I came home I would be
out. Or if I didn't come home, then I would have spent as much time with her as I could have, so
that was the logic pattern I used.
(14:44)
Interviewer: Alright so in the first stages of training she wouldn't have been there, right?
No.
Interviewer: She was back at- back at home but, and then how long was the NCO school
scheduled to last?
NCO school was ten weeks.
Interviewer: Okay.
�And she came down after probably a couple weeks. Her and the friend of mine who went to Fort
Bragg with me, we go, we had gone through all the same training together and he was also
selected for NCO school. And so, his wife and my wife loaded up the car and they came down
together.
Interviewer: Okay.
And they stayed off post.
Interviewer: Alright and what kind of accommodation did they find? Do you remember
that?
Trailer.
Interviewer: Okay.
(15:28)
They lived in a trailer, off of, outside of Fort Benning and they became very good friends, close
friends, and did everything together and then they could come in and visit us on Wednesday
nights. And then on the weekends we generally got a pass, the married guys got a pass to go off,
back to the trailer and spend the weekend with ‘em.
Interviewer: Alright now what was the NCO training like?
A lot of shit, a lot of leadership skills, how to direct men, how to position them, how to just be in
charge. They- they were trying to train leaders, and, in all aspects, I guess.
Interviewer: Okay and this was again geared toward Vietnam?
Absolutely it was.
Interviewer: And the people training you and were they sharing any of their own
experiences, or were they just focusing on here are these skills, just do it this way?
(16:37)
�I got to know a few of them and at nights sometimes they would share some stories, but you find
out that after you've been to Vietnam it's pretty hard to talk to somebody about it that hasn't been
there, or it doesn't understand. But you start to, as you get to know ‘em, and they get a little more
comfortable with it then yeah, they would share. Especially if you pointedly asked them
questions, then they would generally.
Interviewer: Okay but by this time did you want to know as much as you could about what
you were getting into or were you just kind of just going through the program?
Just going through the program. I- I really didn't, I really didn't try to learn anything extra as far
as what they had been through or what it was, what to look forward to because I knew that all
that, everyone was gonna be different.
(17:39)
Interviewer: Okay so that was a ten-week course, you finished that. Now what do they do
with you?
Well then, we had to go what they called OJT, and on-the-job training. So, we went to Fort Polk,
Louisiana and went down there and were the cadre, the sergeants for a basic training company
that was going through their cycle. So, we went through their cycle as their NCOs for eight
weeks and our wives, we actually lived off post then because my friend and I both went there,
and of course the wives went along and we lived on post with them in a 10 by 50 trailer for a
while. And we were off post had to be back on post like at 4:30 in the morning. So, we would
leave in the middle of the night, go back to post and then come back home that evening.
(18:45)
Interviewer: Right because your sergeants now at this point, so you got a little bit more
status and a few other things. How did the more experienced, because you would have had
�other trainers there who had been to Vietnam and that king of thing, how did they treat
you guys?
Like shake and bakes, you know that yeah, we had stripes, but we didn't know anything yet and
they were very much accurate. They, we- we have the rank and we have the authority over theInterviewer: The troops.
Troops but as far as being if you had an E-5 buck sergeant who had been in Vietnam and was
back and he had the same rank as we did, there was absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind who
was in charge.
(19:35)
Interviewer: Alright now when you're doing your training whether it was in- in Fort
Benning or at- at Fort Polk were they taking any advantage of the available terrain, I mean
did you train in swamps at all or?
Oh yes, oh yes, a lot of our, and it got progressively more so as you went to Fort Polk because of
the- the availability of all the swamps and the really nasty jungle type atmosphere. And so, it
was- it was much more in our thought processes as, you know this could be more what it's like.
Interviewer: And what time of year were you at Fort Polk?
Fort Polk I was in…
Interviewer: Late summer or?
Late summer, yeah it had to be… we left Fort Polk probably 15th of December, so…
(20:39)
Interviewer: And how long a stent did you have there?
Eight weeks.
Interviewer: Okay.
�So, I've been back- back it up from.
Interviewer: Okay so back- back in a kind of early- early fall but in Louisiana that can still
be pretty hot and muggy.
It was.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And it was, it wasn't terribly nasty, but it was- it was definitely warm.
Interviewer: And so, I guess some of the time at Fort Benning would have been pretty hot
too.
Fort Benning was very hot, extremely so.
Interviewer: And did working in- in that kind of climate did that help you at all when you
got to Vietnam?
Some probably some, I- I don't we couldn't relate to the conditions because we couldn't duplicate
the- the weight load that you had to carry. If you had to go back and redesign it, you would
probably change because we didn't carry a full rucksack, we didn't carry all the ammo, all the
things that we had to hump around in the jungle you can't duplicate that.
(21:43)
Interviewer: The water, the C-rations, and all the rest of that.
That's right.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay so you've gone through all of this stuff, you get now to the end of
the year and do you get a leave before you have to go to Vietnam, is that how it works?
Yeah, I had two weeks before we had, two weeks or thirty days, don't remember. But before I
had to go to Vietnam and that was somewhat tough, somewhat scared to death. Not knowing
what the future holds.
�Interviewer: And did you take your wife back home to get re-settled or?
Took her back home and she actually lived with her parents, at that point in time she was
pregnant with our son and so it was, that was tough. It was challenging.
(22:40)
Interviewer: Okay and then where do you ship out from? You go to Oakland or Fort Lewis
or somewhere else?
Yeah Fort Lewis is where we left the States from and I thought that first flight took forever. It
was like 21 hours moving from Fort Lewis, to Alaska, to Japan, to Wake Island, and- and into
Cam Ranh.
Interviewer: Alright and I’m not sure Wake is exactly on the way. Guam maybe.
Yeah, but they made a little puddle stop there and I have no idea why.
Interviewer: Okay well it’s possible.
I- I don't know it could have been Guam. One of the times I stopped at Wake.
Interviewer: Yeah Wake might, if you went back to what, to California Wake is a stop.
I stopped at Wake Island one time and I can’t remember what …
Interviewer: Did you have an R&R in Hawaii eventually?
Yes.
(23:37)
Interviewer: Yeah that- that might have been for that because that would have been in
between.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright so you end up doing these things enough, okay I’m learning the
routes.
�Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright so yeah okay but it still basically it's just this tremendously long flight
you take over, did you get off the plane in Alaska or in Japan or did you just stay on?
We got off the plane and it was terribly cold in Alaska and, but it was, we got off plane, got to
stretch our legs and then got back on and kept on going.
Interviewer: Okay so where do you land in Vietnam?
Cam Ranh Bay.
Interviewer: Okay did you come in during the day or at night?
Came in during the day.
Interviewer: Okay and what's your first impression of Vietnam?
Like a slum and- and we got off the plane and actually they’re filing guys on to other planes that
have served their tours and that was a very eye-opening experience. That didn't do anything to
calm my fears let's put it that way that.
(24:37)
Interviewer: Okay now were they paying any attention to you or did you just, did they just
look scary or?
They- they just, they look like they'd been through hell. And- and they had been, and it was, they
looked so much older than us. I remember that- that sight of, why are all these old guys, you
know that, and they looked tough.
Interviewer: And you were probably older than quite a few of them?
Yeah, I was probably a couple years older.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Than a lot of the- the guys that were with us.
�Interviewer: Alright so now you get off the plane what do they do with you?
We had a seven day in-country training, getting aware of what's going on. Did some rappel work,
did some just general indoctrination of what to look for, what to, back through the- the boobytrapped scenario and- and getting your weapon, and getting comfortable with- with the
surroundings. Adjusting to the climate, those type of things.
(25:53)
Interviewer: Did they try to teach you anything about the Vietnamese society or how to
deal with the people or was it just military stuff?
Most of it as I recall was just military.
Interviewer: Okay now at what point do you know what your assignment is?
Sometime during that week, they, and- and I would guess based on what the casualties were andand what was going on they determined where they needed you, so.
Interviewer: Okay so- so okay, and so what do they assign you to?
We were assigned to the, I was assigned to the 2nd of the 506th, Bravo Company.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I was put in, I didn't know which platoon at that point in time that didn't happen till I got to
the company area but…
(26:42)
Interviewer: So, for the record you’re B Company 2nd Battalion 506th Regiment 101st
Airborne Division.
That's exactly right.
Interviewer: Okay person making this will appreciate that. Okay and where were they
based at that time?
�They were based out of Camp Eagle, Camp Evans and that was up close to Phu Bai and so that
was our next stop. We took a, I think it was a C-130 up there which was in I Corps, the
northernmost area in Vietnam.
Interviewer: Right and the area where really the most activity had been going on in the
previous year.
That’s right.
Interviewer: Hence the most losses. Okay so the, so I guess Camp Eagle is- is it Phu Bai
which is close to Hué and then Camp Evans I guess is a little bit north of that.
Yeah, that’s exactly right.
Interviewer: Yeah, closer to Quang Tri and Evans was where the Third Brigade was based
and that's what your battalion was part of.
That's right.
(27:42)
Interviewer: Okay and so you get up to Camp Evans, was the company there or were they
in the field somewhere.
Company was in the field.
Interviewer: Okay.
And all we had was just the new recruits or the new replacement people were there and we were
only there probably two days.
Interviewer: They, did they give you a training course up there or?
Not much, everything, training from that point in time was live-fire, you know and- and you
were gonna learn as you went.
Interviewer: Okay.
�If you survived, you learned.
Interviewer: Because a lot of the guys went through sort of the Screaming Eagles
Replacement Training thing which is like a week of orientation and patrolling and that
kind of stuff, but it might have just depended on the timing for you.
Could have done some of that, I don't recall.
Interviewer: Okay now how do you wind up joining the unit? Do you wait for them to come
back or do you go out?
(28:42)
Went out on a resupply helicopter. And they had blown an LZ, well no it wasn't, it was- it was
kind of more down in the foothills at that point in time so you could secure an LZ and- and get
your re…
Interviewer: Okay so you were in sort of the lowland area?
Yes- yes and- and it was relatively quiet at that point in time, so I had the opportunity it was, I
was put in- in charge of the squad even though I didn't know anything, but I was the highest
rank. And so, I was a squad leader and I'm gonna say six or seven guys.
Interviewer: Okay and how did you approach that? They'd been there longer than you.
How did you deal with them or introduce yourself to them?
(29:48)
Well my point to them was at this point in time when we go to the field, take all the stripes off,
take all the insignias off, we’re all, have one point here; is at the end of the year we all get to go
home. You guys know what you're doing, I would like for you guys to train me, so that you
know if there's- if there's communication between me and higher-ups I'll handle that, but as far as
what we do in the field, I need to learn as much from you as I can.
�Interviewer: And then how did they respond to that?
They were very, very helpful I mean they- they knew that the more that they could teach me, the
less apt I was to get them killed. And so, it was a crash course, but they were very good at it and
they- they were, they became very close friends.
(30:50)
Interviewer: Now did you have a sense of how long they had been with the unit or maybe?
Yeah that- that was the initial conversation, you know the- the icebreaker so to speak, is, “okay
how long have you been here?” You know and then it just it goes from there, where are you
from, you know what- what do you do, what are you gonna do? What, and we found some
common ground in different areas and things.
Interviewer: Had some of them been there long enough to have been in the A Shau Valley
the year before or?
Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah that kind of thing, so they had seen some real combat and- and that kind
of thing.
One of my closer friends had been, had gotten a Silver Star from the year before and so he had
been there and- and knew what it was all about. And- and was, I knew they knew what they were
talking about and so…
(31:46)
Interviewer: So, when was it exactly that you joined them, do you know the approximate
date for that? Or what month anyway? Still January…
It had to been in February sometime, I think.
�Interviewer: February, okay alright and then so where you patrolling in that area for a
while before you went anywhere else?
What they called Search and Destroy missions, which a lot of searching not much destroying
really going on at that point in time. But just familiarizing yourself with the areas, and what to
do, and what not to do, and- and how to set up a night defensive positions, and- and just how to
survive being out in the jungle.
Interviewer: Okay and then how much of a pack did you have to carry once you're out
doing that?
(32:35)
It and, it- it started out as one thing and then as you learn more you figured out what you needed
and what you didn't need and the, I would say our rucksack ran in that 60- 65 pound range.
Depending on some guys had an affinityfor hand grenades, and some guys carried extra belts of
m16 ammo, and it just, it varied from person to person, but you allowed ‘em that freedom
because they knew what they were doing. And I was to learn.
Interviewer: Okay, now when you're out there in the lowland area did you have any enemy
contact?
No not really, we- we didn't, we saw, we found some spider holes and things like that. Some
areas where some booby traps had been set up and- and things like that and blew them up. But
not really any enemy contact.
Interviewer: Okay and then at what point does their mission change? And do you go there,
somewhere else?
Yeah, the mission changed for me and I'm having a hard time relating the dates but we kind of
kept moving farther and farther to the west. Getting closer and closer to the mountains and- and I
�got more experience, sometime along in March the company commander had put together what
was called a battalion Killer Team and you basically what it was was a recon team. And we had
five guys on it, and I went out with, I was chosen as one of them and I went out with a friend of
mine named Joe Strucke and he had extended his tour, so he had already been in Vietnam
probably 14 months. And he went out as a leader and the process was for us to go into the
mountains around Ripcord AO and we see aid in there and repelled in and then we were left out
there for two weeks, and just to report back every night what was going on to avoid contact. And
Joe Strucke had done this before and he was good at it and had been through a lot of stuff so he
was training me to be the leader of the… so he was only with us for that two-week period and
basically to train all of us and me to- to be able to do what recon work they wanted done. So,
after the first two-week period then we got resupplied and Joe left us, and then there was just me
and the four other guys and we did that for another cycle or cycle and a part of another one
maybe and did that. We made no contact, it was basically a hide-and, hide-and-seek scenario.
We had, we- we saw Vietnamese, but we were to not engage them at that point in time just report
back.
(36:13)
Interviewer: So now is this March going into April that you’re doing this?
No, this is, this had to be in March.
Interviewer: All- all- all in March, okay.
All in March.
Interviewer: So, before April 1st, alright. So, and what were you observing at that time, you
could see enemy, what are they doing?
�Troop movements and troop numbers, what- what size units they were working in, you know
whether they farther down in the foothills or maybe two or three, as you got into the heavier
concentrations, or may have been six or eight moving together. So, just reporting troop
movements and- and- and staying out of sight.
Interviewer: Now was this scarier work than what you had done earlier?
Oh yeah it- it ramped up because when you saw you know six or eight of them out there and you
know there's only five of you it wasn't those six or eight that you were worried about, it was, you
know what's gonna happen from there.
(37:14)
Interviewer: Alright and do you have any close calls while camped out at night or
situations where they almost step on you?
Yeah- yeah and- and generally not late at night, it was generally getting toward dusk and- and
that type of thing when they may be walking down a trail and of course we were buried back in
the jungle as much as we could be. And you just hoped that nobody rattled anything, but the guys
were hand selected so, we knew which ones; no one snored, no one smoked, no one, you know
those type of things that were conducive to hiding.
Interviewer: Alright now did you encounter any- any wildlife, I mean were there snakes or
other kinds of things?
Snakes and quick little weasel, whatever they were called, I can't remember now. Name escapes
me but, Mongoose- Mongoose and- and every now and then you'd see a rat and whatnot, but a
lot of snakes, a lot of snakes and more mosquitoes then you could put in the country, or oughta
put in the country so…
(38:34)
�Interviewer: And could you do anything to protect yourself against the mosquitoes?
It- it took a while, you used to put on the bug spray but once we went out there on this team then
that stopped.
Interviewer: Yeah.
So, you could…
Interviewer: That- that would smell distinctive.
That’s right. So, you quit using that and we- we had become by that point in time, you began to
smell like the jungle. Because when I first went to the field it was sixty days before I got my first
change of clothes. So, that I- I smelled like jungle by then and not very, and no way a perfume
that you want, but I smelled like the jungle and everything, all my clothes had rotted off so to
speak. Didn't have- didn't have any underwear, didn't have anything other than my fatigue pants
and a t shirt.
(39:34)
Interviewer: They didn’t- they didn’t resupply you with any clothing?
Nope, for sixty days they didn’t.
Interviewer: Alright now was the first part of sixty days where you're still in the lowlands
and then you just have the same clothes and you've been with those out into the jungle?
Now when we went with the- with the Killer Team and went out there then we got camo
fatigues. So, we got the different colored fatigues and- and- and we would paint up our faces
and- and did some of that too, to help stay out of sight.
Interviewer: Right, okay so when did the- the Killer Team thing end?
That ended just shortly before April 1st. They pulled everybody in Bravo Company back in and
we were getting ready to go to Ripcord.
�Interviewer: Okay.
And that was planned for April 1st.
(40:21)
Interviewer: Alright so what do you remember about April 1st?
April 1st was very significant, I was being a squad leader, I had a- a smoke grenade. So, Ripcord
you could land three helicopters at the same time and we were to try and get the- the Combat
Assault in there as quickly as possible. Get all the boots on the ground we could. And so, I was
given, I was in that first wave and had a red smoke grenade in my hand just in case we got
incoming fire and it was a hot LZ. Of course, as we started coming in, boom, boom, boom, boom
the mortars started coming in and so popped red smoke and so did the other two helicopters, I'm
not sure who was on them but, and our designation we were given orders on what sector we were
to move to. And being on one of the first ones, we were designated to go the far end of the
firebase away from Impact Rock, and go to the far point as far as we could and spread my men
out, out there, get dug in. So, we went to the far end of the firebase and- and fortunately there
was hardly a foxhole out there and although not big enough but it was- it was there and we
secured that into the firebase but mortar rounds were raining in with regularity at that point in
time. That was 8 o'clock in the morning April 1st.
(42:01)
Interviewer: Alright now were the mortars targeting the area where you were, or they were
mostly going for wherever the helicopters were coming?
Mostly going for wherever the helicopters were landing.
Interviewer: Now how close were you to… because there eventually this is basically this is
sort of a- a bald hilltop at this point, kind of a rocky hilltop with other hills kind of around
�it and you're under fire and eventually the firebase would have sort of two helipads on it
and were you close to one of the areas that the helicopters would land on there?
No, we weren’t.
Interviewer: Okay.
We were, my squad was- was probably about as far away from the helipad as you could get
fortunately. And that- that was a good thing for us because most of the round, now every thenevery now and then you would have a round that would land short of there or long of there or
whatever else is they were directing their fire. And you would get, you know shrapnel going
overhead as rounds exploded and whatnot and you could hear ‘em, the rounds coming in, that
whistle is something that you never forget. So, every time one would come in of course we'd be
as low as we could get in the hole.
(43:08)
Interviewer: And were you taking any small arms fires or just mortars?
Heard some 50- 51 caliber rounds.
Interviewer: That’s the machine gun,
Okay.
Interviewer: Alright did any of your men get hit that day?
In the company, well Joe Strucke I told you about before, he happened to be with the command
group at that point in time. He was kind of the- the first sergeant in the field, he was an E-6 and
he- he was wounded. There were a lot of guys getting hit, a lot of- a lot of wounded as the
helicopters would come in, before they could get under cover somebody would get hit. And he
was wounded, he lost an eye and part of his arms got messed up, but that was the closest of our
group, of my squad group that- that would have been.
�(44:10)
Interviewer: Yeah but your own squad they those guys where okay.
They were intact.
Interviewer: Okay so now is it to you- you go in there kind of first thing in the morning
essentially, one of the first squads in. You- you dig in, you have your positions set up. What
happens now to you guys later in the day?
The- the rounds and- and this is a day-long process of trying to get all the equipment, the
engineers in, to- to get the artillery units in, and all that kind of thing. Trying, attempting to get
all this in here, the problem is that as you're trying to do all this there, the mortar rounds are
flying. And every bird that comes in, somebody gets hit. Well that requires another medevac and
then you're loading guys on the medevac and you put three or four guys on a medevac to get
them out of there and two of the guys that are helping load the bodies get hit. So, and the- the
helicopters were, they were going down. You know they- they weren't totally disabled but they
were shot up enough to where when they got back to Evans they took ‘em out of commission.
So, it was constantly of, you know what's the process here? How are you gonna be able to get the
wounded out, without causing more wounded?
(45:28)
Interviewer: Let alone do things like set up an artillery position.
An impossible task is what it was. So, later on in the day, it became very evident that this wasn't
gonna work. They just had it zeroed in too good and the Cobra Gunships and- and all that kind of
thing were flying missions all day long around us. Targeting potential gun sights and mortar pits
and things out there in the jungle that were firing at us. They were trying to destroy them. And
most of our day was spent trying to site where they were firing from so that we could direct fire
�and report back and- and let them know where it was coming from. And so, it was just a constant
juggling of trying to get the right thing done which I don't think there was a right thing.
(46:26)
Interviewer: Alright so now how does this situation resolve itself?
Eventually someone made the decision and handed down that we weren't gonna be able to
maintain our position there on the hill. So, the- the order was given that at midnight we would
walk off that hill. Well there had to be a lot of prep work done in advance of that, simply because
we had, at that point in time, we had three KIAS. And we had all this equipment from the
wounded guys, got all their rucksacks, and their weapons, and- and it was going on 60- 65
pounds a man. And all these guys gettin’ wounded. So, what are we gonna do with all of it? Well
what we ended up doing is we piled it all up in one great big pile. We buried the three guys that
were up there and were KIAS. And then so that we could be in position at midnight the, from
another firebase, an artillery unit was going to fire an illumination for us. And there was a
pathfinder group up there and they were gonna lead us down off of the hill to link up with a sister
company because we were pretty well shot out up at that point in time.
(47:52)
Interviewer: Alright and so how did that evacuation go?
The pucker factor went up really high because going for a walk at midnight in triple-canopy
jungle is not something I would recommend. And so, we were scared and after being shot at all
day long you can imagine. We set it all up, so the explosives were ready to go, and we started
down off of there, followed the ridgeline and we were gonna link up with Alpha Company. Got a
safe distance away to where they could detonate the, all the supplies and everything else, they
wrapped it all with det cord, tied all the explosive together, so it all went up in one great big
�charge. And after that it was just a matter of- of them firing illumination continuously from
midnight till four o'clock in the morning and it took us four hours to link up with Alpha
Company.
(48:58)
Interviewer: About how far do you think that distance was?
I have no idea yeah, I really don't I- I know it was a very cautious walk. It was…
Interviewer: So, it may have just been a kilometer or something like that.
It could have been, I- I really don't have any idea. I know it was- it was scary.
Interviewer: Where they just on one of the neighboring hills or ridges so your kind of going
down then back up.
Yeah that's- that's the way I kind of remember it and it was kind of, it kind of followed a
ridgeline and then and then back up the other side and we- we had to stop at the bottom before
was started to go back up because there had to be contact made with Alpha Company and then
kind of them guide us up through and where we ought to be and- and then they took us in and we
were pretty much a nervous wreck and they took us in and put us in the center of their perimeter
and said, “okay guys just crash.” And- and it was, you can finally take a deep breath and- and so
it was- it was a scary time, but it was also very, felt good when you finally got to- got to crash.
(50:19)
Interviewer: Alright so what do you do the next day?
Those- those days after that kind of became a little bit of a blur. It just, we went several days of
just patrolling around Ripcord again. And did a lot of things there was some point in time that we
actually went back to Evans, I don't remember when that was.
�Interviewer: Cause one of the other people from the company I interviewed talked about
being out there and pretty much running out of food.
We did that, absolutely I, it was a point in time when the- the weather got really bad and we were
soaked in and they couldn't get us resupply and we were- we were out of food and I remember
nobody had any C- rations. And one of the guys had a little tin with some crackers in it, four
crackers and some cheese and he was offered twenty- twenty dollars for that little, and that's all
there was. And, but we would, we were hungry, we were just flat hungry. And ended up, they
couldn't get an LZ, we couldn't get an LZ cut there for us, but Delta Company had gotten
resupply, so Delta Company took all of our supplies as well and it- it was just our process to link
up with them. So, that's what we did, and we spent a- a while trying to get with them and then
once we got to them, there again it was the same thing because we were shorting numbers. Our
company size was probably, I don’t know, I’m thinking there were only 35 or something like that
in our entire company.
(52:18)
Interviewer: How many do you think you took on to Ripcord originally?
Probably 75.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Somewhere in that neighborhood, so when we linked up with Delta Company then they took us
in, they knew we'd been without for a long time and- and Captain Rollison said, “you guys go in,
get your C- rations, eat as much as you want, just sit down and relax. Don't worry, we've got you
covered.” And so that was, there again that was one of those whew man through this one.
�Interviewer: Okay so part of what's going on at this point is the weather is bad enough it's
hard to be able to get back in and really conduct operations effectively because you can't
resupply, let alone establish a base up on top of Ripcords.
Right.
Interviewer: Okay so you do that, eventually you do get back to Evans and then you go
back out in the field again?
(53:05)
Yeah, we went back out in the field and more of the same Search and Destroy missions, looking
for the enemy trying to figure out troop strength. Preparing to go for another assault on Ripcord.
I knew that Alpha Company had tried in March to- to take the hill. We had tried April, and so I
assumed there was probably gonna be one of the other two companies that were gonna try it the
next time, so we were out in the jungle and I was tickled to death to be there to be honest about
it. That was, I felt safer out there than having mortar rounds raining it on your head.
Interviewer: And then Charlie Company then goes up I guess on 10th or 11th of April.
Yeah.
Interviewer: They walk up the side and for some reason don't get shot at.
(53:58)
For some reason and had the opportunity to actually establish the fire base, and of course they
had the perfect man there to do it. And- and Izzy…
Interviewer: Vazquez.
Yeah Izzy I a call him. Captain Vazquez was up there and of course didn't know about this until
many decades later his- his true expertise and- and why he knew what he knew, you know he
was- he was the man and all my respect for that- for that individual. But then it was so that
�would have been mid- April we were- we were kind of on a rotation then for, as I recall, it was
two weeks, we had four companies I don’t know if it was probably Delta and.
Interviewer: Charlie and Delta yeah.
Charlie, and we went, we were on the firebase providing perimeter support for two weeks and
then six weeks out in the jungle was basically what it was. So we were patrolling a round
Ripcord, just doing the same old thing, trying to survive and then along came May and we were
out in the field, and we probably had an objective to get to a certain point but it was actually, and
I expressed my opinion that that's too far to try and travel in one day. You just, you can't move
that far, and we had a relatively new lieutenant, matter of fact very new, but he was gonna try
and impress the brass and- and he stretched how far we should travel.
(55:51)
Interviewer: Now were the platoons operating separately at this point?
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay.
And so, and I may have been in a position at that point in time where I was the platoon sergeant,
and so we tried to move farther than we could. We got to that position, we made it but it didn't
give us time to set up listening posts, to get dug in, to scout the area, and- and see what we were,
to get our claymores set up, or any that kind of thing. We didn't have time to do that because it
was dark, so here we were, we got in there and we- we dropped our rucksacks and the guys are
exhausted and hadn't had anything to eat, when all hell broke loose. And they opened up on the
5th of May and- and started firing and RPGs and- and small-arms fire, machine-gun fire, a lot of
AKs.
(56:54)
�Interviewer: Now were you on a hilltop or inside of one or?
Kind of- kind of on a little rise, a little bit. We weren't way high up, but it was- it was a little bit
of a rise and because that was the best place we could find to try and get a vantage point. I
immediately picked up the radio because I had a lot of training in mortars from NCO school. So,
I could act as a forward observer and the first thing I did was got a hold of- of Ripcord and got a
hold of mortar platoon and called in a fire mission and started walking mortar rounds in on ‘em.
And the lieutenant he didn't know how to, I didn't really have much contact with him after that.
He was, I think it was his first firefighter or first experience, so he was pretty rattled. And so, I
handled that and I did probably made my biggest mistake as I, in order to see where the rounds
were firing so I could direct ‘em, I got up on top of a rock and had the radio in my hand well a
RPG round landed relatively close and- and I got hit in the neck and knocked me off the rock and
we had four, four or five other guys that got some shrapnel. No one was killed, but we were shot
up and we got the- the enemy was dispersed. They quit firing but the problem was they couldn't
get a helicopter in to- to get the wounded out. And they said, “well we'll just have to wait till
morning,” because there was no LZ anywhere around us. So, we spent that night out there and
then they came in the next day and they took all of- all of us wounded out in a jungle penetrate.
(59:01)
Interviewer: And can, describe what that was for someone who's never heard of one.
A jungle penetrator is a pronged seat that they lower down on a cable from a helicopter, so the
helicopter has to hover and drop this down through the- the trees and then you get on the seat and
hang on and they pull you, elevate you out without the helicopter ever landing.
Interviewer: Alright and they had to do that for five guys.
Yup.
�Interviewer: Did that have to be one at a time that they did that?
Well they actually brought in two birds.
Interviewer: Okay.
They brought in- they brought in two of them, one after the other one and so we got to go, and
we went to Danang. We went straight to Danang from the jungle.
Interviewer: Okay and then how long were you away from the unit then?
(59:51)
Had surgery on that next day and then was in the hospital there, woke up in intensive care. Was
in the hospital there for probably three/ four days, and then went from there to Cam Ranh Bay to
recover. Because they had left the- the wound open to allow it to drain. And they, I was there for
say two and a half weeks, something like that in Cam Ranh.
Interviewer: Now while you were there, we were able to get up and move around or did
they keep you in the bed?
No, I was- I was able to get up and move around. And really didn't, the scariest part was at the
hospital when we went in there because nobody was hurt terribly bad. And I, you know I was hit
in the neck but didn't feel bad or anything, but the doctor came out and said, “Sargent
Hansmann.” And I said, “yeah” and he said, “I want you to just remain still,” and I said, “okay
what's going on.” And they brought out a gurney and laid me down on a gurney and told me not
to move. And they took me in, what they found out was one piece of the shrapnel, a long piece
was lodged between my jugular vein and my spinal cord. And it was very close to both and so
they had I guess some tricky surgery to get it out without messing something up worse. But it -it
all turned out fine. And it healed up but some of the shrapnel stills in there but.
(1:01:41)
�Interviewer: Okay now we were talking about you were being treated at Cam Ranh Bay.
They've taken, done the operation, you’re recovering from that, you can kind of get around
and that sort of thing. So, what point soon, was there- was there anything else about that
stay that you wanted to bring into the story before we take you back to your unit.
It was a, everything went well with the recovery, spent some time going to movies, doing some
things that you, most people would consider kind of normal and yeah it was a- it was a good time
frame.
Interviewer: So, it was kind of a vacation?
Yeah, it was kind of a vacation.
Interviewer: Alright so when do you rejoin your unit?
Rejoined the unit in… some time the very first part of June, and went back to the unit, and was
basically, I think we, I rejoined them on Ripcord. I flew out to Ripcord and then was out there for
a few days because I think the unit was- was providing perimeter security but then sometime
very shortly after that we went back out to the field.
(1:03:00)
Interviewer: Okay.
So, we walked off Ripcord, somebody else took our place and we were out in the field and that
was until… June 12th my son was born.
Interviewer: Okay.
And he contracted, my wife had problems in childbirth, and he contracted double pneumonia and
was in really tough shape. Well of course I didn't know all this was going on back there at that
point in time, it was a few days after he was born that helicopter came out and had a chaplain on
it. And once again, they said, “we need to see Sergeant Hansmann.” And whenever that
�happened something bad was going on, he came over and he says, “I've got this for you Sarge,”
and it was a Western Union telegram. And the only thing that it says on the telegram is, “your
wife has given birth to a son. Baby's condition terminal. Wife's condition doubtful.” And that's
all I.
Interviewer: Wow
That's all that was on it. So, I was needless to say very upset, emotional, and he said, “Sarge,” the
chaplain said, “Sarge we're gonna take you back, you've been granted a 30-day emergency leave
to go back home, take care of your family.” So, got on the helicopter, went back still have no
idea what's going on, and no way to find out what's going on. Went back to the- to the base and
turned in all my gear, everything and first sergeant was there and he- he helped me with getting
all of the everything processed and everything done that needed to do and was very
compassionate with what was going on and helped me get all that done. Got on plane and went
down to, I supposed to Cam Ranh or Danang somewhere and got on a bird to go back home,
flew back home flew into SeaTac again and it was then in Seattle that I was finally able to make
phone call. And got ahold of- of the family and found out that my son had survived, and my wife
was doing fine and that by the time I got home from Seattle they were gonna be able to come
home, so, everything turned out beautifully. But and- and the backstory to that, my wife's doctor
who was delivering, delivered the baby and everything was a Vietnam vet. He was an Army
doctor in Vietnam, so he knew what procedures it took to get me home and all that and he did.
And so, my son recovered from pneumonia and although it stunted his growth some, he's only
6’5 and 230. But- but everything turned out well and so I got to spend 30 days here in the States
and then the- the hard part was I had to get on that plane and come back. So, then the, it was
probably 14th of July or something like that I came back to Vietnam. Went back up, took several
�days to get from Cam Ranh back up to the company unit to get my gear and everything and it
was- was getting ready to go back out to Ripcord. Well that got into the, right around the 20th or
so of July.
(1:07:16)
Interviewer: Okay.
And Top came down and said, “Sarge we're getting ready to pull everybody off that hill. There's
no sense in you going out there.” So, I was, I waited then and rejoined my group when they came
back, I was on the pad as they came back.
Interviewer: Alright and what had you been able to learn during that time about what had
happened at of Ripcord while you were gone?
It, just the stories that first sergeant and I would sit down, and- and he would share with me what
was going on, and how bad it was. And- and all the things that had happened, and at- at that
point in time I was, that was the beginning of my struggle with survival skills I guess, is this ain’t
good.
Interviewer: Because you had missed, because your company had been up there in the first
three weeks of July and that's when the base came under heavy bombardment. Eventually
helicopter crashed on the 18th, blew up the ammo dump then after that they kind of had to
go. But those guys had been through all of that and you were off doing all this other stuff.
Yeah.
(1:08:30)
Interviewer: Okay so, now… on, so the 23rd of July is when they actually evacuate the
base, what did you do that day?
�That day I was down on the helicopter pad and just helping the guys with their stuff, greeting old
friends, and- and consoling them and just, you know and they, there was absolutely no, they
didn't feel from their perspective like I felt in mine. That I wasn't there to help they said,
“Sergeant nothing you could do. There was nothing we could do,” you know you just but…
Interviewer: Okay, the company didn't lose too many men at- at that point.
No.
Interviewer: They had taken some wounded, not too many killed, but still they've gone
through all that and- and you hadn’t. Once they're back, now what happens to you and the
company?
We went, I think we went to Eagle Beach and- and then we're, you know kind of getting
everything realigned and kind of figured out. Everybody's trying to figure out where do we go
from here and what do we do. So, we went, eventually we went back out in the field again. And
in different AOs I don't even remember where.
(1:09:52)
Interviewer: Was this, it's still in the mountains or hill country?
Yeah- yeah it was and so we went back out and we were doing that and- and then I went on an
R&R because I hadn't taken one and I was still eligible for one. Around the 8th of August as I
recall and met my wife in Hawaii, which was again you know a relatively short period of time
since I'd seen her. Was- was really fun and we had a good time together and- and after that went
back with the company doing the same old things again and the same procedure, you know being
in the jungle and whatnot.
Interviewer: Now was there much contact at that time? Was it quiet?
(1:10:41)
�It- it seemed like it was a lot quieter at that point in time. And I had gotten to know our first
sergeant really well and- and I told him, “okay at some point in time as I'm getting shorter here
or have seen, you know, been wounded once, and have- have been through several things, if the
opportunity presents itself and you can pull me out of the field, send me to…” I said, “I'm trained
in mortars.” I said, you know, “just send me to a mortar platoon,” and, you know that’d be good
if it works out. And it took a while but sometime in later September then something opened up
and he said, “Sarge, gonna move into- in the mortar platoon for your last period of time,” and so
I was up there and- and got to know a lot of the guys, became a squad leader there in the mortar
platoon didn't know anything about mortars because I had forgotten everything I’d learned but
there again I was in the same situation and they knew where I’d been and what I’d done so they
were very comfortable with, they knew their jobs they didn't need me. And so, I just did
whatever was necessary to help them out and make their job easier. So, the last six weeks or so I
was there and that was a- that was really a good deal and to put it time-wise in perspective you
think, well that's doesn't add up to a year, but while I was home for that 30-day leave my father
in law made me an offer; he was a farmer and he said- he said, “what are you gonna do when you
came home?” And I was, in college I was an accounting major and I said, “I cannot see myself
sittin’ in an office,” I said, “I'd go nuts.” And he says, “well you want to come home and help
farm?” I said, “I'd love to.” So, I put in for an early out to go home and help with the harvest,
which was very legitimate and so I ended up getting an early out to come home and help farm in
November.
(1:13:10)
Interviewer: Alright now the meantime I guess with the mortar platoon were they usually
on a fire base somewhere?
�Yes, I was on Fire Base Kathryn and that's where I met Pops, John Henry. And a- a lot of thethe guys, matter in fact one of the guys I had been through NCO school with was there as well so
and it was relatively quiet at that point in time.
Interviewer: Now would the base take any incoming of one kind or another was it just
quieter?
Very little, if any.
Interviewer: Alright.
Very little, we would hear some AK fire every now and then and- and of course having been out
there and been involved in several different contacts and fire fights and whatnot. I- I could tell
how far away it was, I can tell which direction it was firing, and all that and it was kind of funny
because the mortar guys would, as soon as they hear an AK go off they’d grab a helmet, and
would bury underground and I was standing up there looking around because you can tell what's
going on and you, when you need to get down and when you don’t.
(1:14:16)
Interviewer: Yeah, alright so the, at some point back before the end of Ripcord, sometimes
mortars would actually go out in the field at least briefly with- with units.
Yeah.
Interviewer: But you weren't doing that at this time?
No, we were not doing that.
Interviewer: Okay a couple other kinds of questions is sort of a lot of stereotypes about
Vietnam and what went on over there and- and so forth. One of them has to do with just
the question of race and racial tensions, did you observe any of that yourself or?
�No, we really, we had no problems whatsoever. We had at some point in time there, I don't
remember, we had a platoon sergeant come in. His name of Jim Burdette, and very educated, he
had a master’s degree in mathematics. And he was an E-6 and, but he was drafted just like the
rest of us, went through NCO school, very intelligent, six-foot five black guy who- who
commanded a lot of respect but was a really, super intelligent, nice guy. And that kind of kept I
think any racial, that- that kept it down, although we didn't have any before that either.
(1:15:44)
Interviewer: Well you spent most of your time in the field too.
Yeah and there's no room for that.
Interviewer: Yeah- yeah and that again, that may apply to another one of the stereotypes
that has to do with- with drug use, I mean when you get back…
Absolutely none. Wouldn't stand for it, I- I wouldn't stand for it and neither did anybody else.
And we just, there was something, now when they were in the rear area or at Eagle Beach or
something like that, was some of that done? Could have been, I- I have no idea, but when we
were in the field it was absolutely taboo. You- you didn't do that cause you were gonna get
yourself killed and somebody else too, so.
Interviewer: And also, how much did you see of the Vietnamese themselves; I mean did you
have any Kit Carson Scouts around or anything like that?
(1:16:34)
We had a Kit Carson Scout on a few different occasions, not for long periods of time. We found
them rather worthless because they didn't want to walk point, they didn't want to walk slack.
They wanted to walk at the rear, and they wouldn't carry their share of the load, they wouldn't
work, I, we, I had no use for ‘em personally but it's- it's kind of like scout dog philosophy and we
�had that one episode with a scout dog that he led us right straight into an ambush and then the
dog died and the handler got all shot up and- and all those kinds of things.
Interviewer: Now the Kit Carson Scouts were supposed to be enemy soldiers who turn
themselves in, who could then show things to you. And in some cases, seem to be people
who are avoiding the South Vietnamese Army but- but so it kind of varied for how useful
any of them were. So, you've got that, now did you see any Vietnamese civilians like on the
base camps or around them?
(1:17:41)
Just back when we were in the rear, really didn't see, there were a few occasion when we saw
some Montagnard’s, wood cutters used to call them they- they would be out cutting trees or
whatever. And saw a few of those, but as far as much Vietnamese population, only in the rear
area. If- if they were in the jungle and they were Vietnamese, they were- they were a target in
our opinion.
Interviewer: Yeah because there weren't really regular villages or things out there in that
area.
No there were not.
Interviewer: Okay, now in the- in the rear area, I mean where these people who just
working on the bases or where their villages around or?
There were villages around and- and- and they- they were doing, you know hooch maids or
whatever else and- and that type of stuff. Working in- in some of the mess halls and that kind of
thing, so.
(1:18:41)
Interviewer: Yeah, but you didn't spend really any time in- in these built-up areas.
�No, I didn’t.
Interviewer: Particularly at all. So, okay and did you, what understanding did you have by
the time you left, how did you view the war itself?
Frustrated, would- would probably be the- the biggest word that would come to mind, simply
because of my experience with Ripcord, you know we tried to take it in March, we tried to take it
in April, we took it later on in April and established it, and we're up there, got a lot of guys
killed, a ton of guys wounded. And we had no idea until decades later what kind of enemy force
we were dealing with, and then ended up just walking away from ‘em and giving it all back to
‘em. And we, I have a hard time figuring out exactly what we accomplished. And my only way
of justifying everything is somebody else has to live with the decisions that were made and why
they were made. I only have to live with the decision that I did what my duty was as a soldier.
(1:20:04)
Interviewer: Right.
And- and supported- supported the leadership by doing what they asked and supported my men
by trying to take care of ‘em as best I could.
Interviewer: Alright now what's the process for getting you home once you- you get orders,
you can leave, now what do they do with you?
It was just a matter of like a day or two before I was supposed to go home. Came back to the
rear, got everything turned in, cleaned up, new set of fatigues, all those kinds of things. It was
kind of a fast blur at that point, trying to say goodbye to people, and- and hoping that they made
it. Got on the plane, went to Seattle, went through a process I think I was there probably a week
or so. Processing out, getting a physical and- and- and got a new set of dress greens, and had a
good meal and whatnot. And then went to the airport and I- I thought, boy can only be great from
�here, and I walked in the airport and of course there's all the protesters. And had signs
everywhere and I walked, first thing it is, I went to the bathroom, walked in there and here's a
trash can overflowing with dressed greens. Guys didn't want to have to deal with all the
protesters, so they put on the civilian clothes of course it's, you can tell a soldier that’s been in
war real quick and it didn't do ‘em any good to change their clothes but that's what they did. And
I thought that's really sad, that that is truly sad to see that, those dress greens just running out the
top of a garbage can. That image is still burnt in my brain and I thought, okay guys, I just went
through a war, if you think you're gonna get me to take this off I got news for you, have at it. So,
I left mine on and very proudly walked out there. And they, I didn't have any, they weren't
interested in- in real confrontation. They just- they just wanted to be loud, so I just ignored ‘em.
Got on a plane and flew home.
(1:22:40)
Interviewer: Alright and so when do you actually get back home? It’s now November,
December?
It had to be- it had to be in November.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I actually felt a commitment because I had been given the drop to go home and farm. I- I
got home and the next day I was on a tractor. I and that's one of my bigger regrets is that I didn't
take time to decompress, you know that's a matter of a week earlier I'd been in the jungle
carrying a rifle and shooting at people.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And I didn't come home and take the time to decompress because I felt they gave me this drop,
it's my responsibility to do what I said I was gonna do. So, I went home, and I farmed.
�(1:23:30)
Interviewer: Okay and so now what was the readjustment process like for you then?
It was a- it was a struggle. I was a different individual and to try and come home, and I was very
devoted to my family and my wife, but I didn't know how to do that. And she didn't know how to
react to me either and it was- it was hard. It was- it was a tough experience for us to- to try and
live through that being two totally different people, because now she was a mother and I hadn't
been there for that process and I was a just a totally different… the pictures look like ten years
difference and so..
Interviewer: And so how did you deal with that or sort things out?
(1:24:25)
Kept it inside. Tried to do what I thought people wanted to see. It wasn't exactly who I was and
didn't talk about it, and that was the- that was a problem and didn't discover how big of a
problem until years and years later. And didn't really talk a whole lot about it until my first
Ripcord Reunion.
Interviewer: Okay and when was that?
That was the first year it was in Indianapolis.
Interviewer: Okay.
This is my fourth, so we were two years at Myrtle Beach and then two years before that in
Indianapolis.
Interviewer: Okay so 2011 was the…
Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright and did you manage to stay married all that time?
Interesting that, now we're gonna get kind of personal.
�Interviewer: Well if, this is you can talk about it or not.
I will.
(1:25:26)
Interviewer: That’s…
I will- I will. There’s no holds barred here. My wife and I were married for thirty years and it just
through the process of the war and whatnot and a lot of other issues, she said that she wanted a
divorce. And we went to counseling and whatnot and the counselor began to drag out, the
psychologist, began to drag out some of this Vietnam stuff. He sensed that that was part of it, and
he started part of that. And Laura began to hear some things that she had never heard before. And
but anyway she filed for divorce and we got divorced in 1998. And she, I- I didn't want it and she
called me the day the divorce was final and said, “Paul, I think I made a mistake.” And my
comment to that was, “no shit.” But- but I said, “you got what you wanted,” so I walked away.
And it was about, well 1999 December 23rd we got remarried and have been together and happy
ever since.
(1:26:55)
Interviewer: And so now after that- that was kind of a product of all of that, the counseling,
were you starting to get some counseling or some support by this time?
Not a lot at that point in time. I- I became, because she started asking more questions then. And
so, I did start to open up more, and then along came a job change and- and some other things
went on and we moved from Iowa to Illinois. And eventually came in contact with Craig Van
Hout and- and talked to me some and then he talked about there was an Illinois group that they
were getting together, for just the guys from Illinois are gonna have lunch. And it was relatively
close by, half an hour. Apprehensive about going to that and whatever but Laura finally prodded
�me into doing that and we did and met some guys, and we went out laid a wreath at the cemetery
there and whatnot. And got to know the guys; Floyd Alexander, Dale Lane and some of those
guys, George Murphy and they said, “you've got to go to a reunion Paul. You’ve got to.” And
Floyd it was just, it was fascinating because he helped me out back in the, your mind you wonder
whether or not you remember the things that really happen. And so, I was talking with Floyd
about April 1st and he said, “April 1st, that was the only time I was in Vietnam that we had to get
resupplied with illumination rounds in the night to fire illumination for you guys.” And so, he
just verified.
(1:28:43)
Interviewer: Yeah.
You know the whole thing. So, anyway then I said “okay,” so I signed up for the reunion in- in
2011 and we went, and it was probably the best thing I ever did. And Laura's comment who was
a speech and English teacher said it was fascinating to sit by the side and just watch you guys,
everybody’s speaking the same language. You don't have to explain what a CA is, or what an LZ
is, or what- what an RPG is, or, you don't have to explain anything. You just talk to one another
because you all speak the same language. And so, it- it just kind of grew from there and- and she
still thinks I've got PTSD which yeah, I probably do. [unintelligible]
Interviewer: Yeah, so, it’s the sort of thing where different people deal with it different
ways. You actually did what an awful lot of the World War II and Korea guys did, and that
is you- you're carrying the baggage with you and you just kind of put it away. And it does
affect your behavior and how you interact with people in certain ways and that sort of
stuff. So, likely yeah if you go to the psychologist, they would diagnose that, but I'm not a
�psychologist so I'm just a historian but I’ve seen a lot of that. But you know, but I mean
that’s what you were always expected to do. Was just suck it up…
(1:30:10)
That’s what my dad did.
Interviewer: And go forward and sometimes that works and sometimes if you're able to
talk about, you work it through, you get control of it, and it doesn't rule you in the same
way. And clearly your relationship with your wife has changed because of it, so that may
help and certainly connecting with the guys who were there can be tremendously helpful.
And in the meantime, what it's done is it's enabled you to sort out your story well enough
that you've done a very good job of telling it today.
Thank you.
Interviewer: So, I’d like to thank you for coming and sharing.
Thank you.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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Identifier
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RHC-27_HansmannP1891V
Title
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Hansmann, Paul (Interview transcript and video), 2014
Date
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2014-10-31
Description
An account of the resource
Paul Hansmann was born in Cincinnati, Ohio on August 28, 1948. Hansmann was drafted in 1969 and underwent raining at Fort Bragg, Fort McClellan, Fort Benning, and Fort Polk. He was then selected for NCO school where he trained according to the war in Vietnam. He was then deployed to Camp Evans in Vietnam with the B Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. He conducted Search and Destroy missions and was chosen to be on a battalion Killer Team in the mountains around Ripcord AO before the assault of the firebase. He was later stationed at Firebase Kathryn before recieving an early-out to go home and help his father in law farm in Iowa.
Creator
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Hansmann, Paul N.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6103cb62c135a5d0e4f0c861e49bf362.mp4
9d715ddafd1a22ccdc2fe219527cb601
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bba45f2818e69add2d6189707f242ed3.pdf
284d55b31a3e741422f1ff303cff4079
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Laura Hansmann
Interview Length: (35.32)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: We're at the 2018 Ripcord Association Reunion we’re talking now with Laura
Hansmann of Coon Rapids, Minnesota and Laura is the wife of Paul Hansmann who we've
interviewed previously and served in the Ripcord Campaign and she is gonna give her side
of the story. And so, Laura begin with a little bit of background on yourself and to begin
with where and when were you born?
I was born January 23rd, 1947 in Eldora, Iowa. I grew up on an Iowa farm.
Interviewer: Okay.
Worked hard, my dad was a good farmer, hard worker, I had two sisters and a brother.
Interviewer: Okay and then did your father have any other occupation beyond farming or
was he able to support himself entirely off of the farm?
He supported us with farming, however he really was involved in a lot of organizations in the
county and so he ran for state representative in 1970 I think, and he lost but then he ran for state
senator and he was an Iowa State Senator for 22 years.
(1.09)
Interviewer: Okay, alright and then what part of Iowa are you in?
Central Iowa, north central Steamboat Rock, little town, out on the farm, in fact we still have the
family farm. It's probably 80 miles north of Des Moines.
Interviewer: Alright and then did you finish high school?
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay when did you graduate from high school?
�1965.
Interviewer: Okay and what did you do after you got out of high school?
Well my grandmother was quite a lady and she told, said that she would pay tuition for the first
year of college if we went to a Christian college. Well my father decided to enter me into a
speech contest where I had to write a speech and present it, and I won the National, so I got my
scholarship from that for one year and then my grandma of course picked up the next year. So, I
went to Cedarville College, it’s now a university in Cedarville, Ohio.
Interviewer: Okay.
And graduated from there in 1969.
Interviewer: Alright now where did you meet your husband?
In college we were both in college choir and they arranged us by height. He was the tallest guy
and my roommate, and I were the tallest girls, so we stood on each side of him. So that's where I
met him.
(2.22)
Interviewer: Alright and of course he's in college and of course the Vietnam War at that
point is going on. At, and so is it, is he, are you thinking about, I mean if you're- you’re
getting serious and so forth and you're going to get married and there's a prospect there
and being drafted.
You know it's interesting we were sheltered at the college about what went on in the world and
we didn't even think of Vietnam. It just wasn't, in fact Paul and I just discussed this recently, he
left school and I stayed there, we got married in 1968.
Interviewer: Okay.
�So of course, if you're not, weren't in school then you were eligible for the draft and it caught
him.
(3.11)
Interviewer: Okay now I'm sure we have it in his interview but just for the audience here
did he leave school just because he was tired of it or he wanted to do something else?
Yeah, he just, he you know he wanted to do something else and wanted to get married, so he
needed to support us. So, we got married and then in ‘68 of June and then we, I didn't go back to
school the first quarter my senior year.
Interviewer: Okay.
And then he got a draft notice, so in February of 1969 he left to go to and so I was in school then
to finish my college degree.
Interviewer: Alright how did your family feel about all of this stuff?
You know I don't remember I; we were not living near them.
Interviewer: Right.
…at the time because we were in Ohio and his family was in Illinois and mine in Iowa but just
and it was just what was going on.
Interviewer: Yeah let's see and where did you actually have the wedding?
(4.15)
In Iowa, in our, in my home church in Eldora.
Interviewer: Okay, alright so he was an acceptable choice?
Oh yeah, I think so.
Interviewer: Well he was going to the right school.
Too bad, he was, yes.
�Interviewer: Okay yeah and what kind of work was he doing?
Well he was at that time, his father was a superintendent of a bakery, commercial bakery so he
helped in the bakery and when we were in Ohio then he got a job in the bakery just driving the
bread truck. Getting up super early in the morning and- and working while I was at school.
Interviewer: Alright and then so you were still basically in Cedarville at that point or?
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay alright and then were you watching, would you watch TV news and
things like that?
You know not a whole lot. Like I said we were pretty sheltered we were busy. I was in school, he
was working, and yeah, we knew about Vietnam, but it just wasn't something that we thought a
lot about. We were pretty naive.
(5.13)
Interviewer: Okay and so now what, was there any kind of anti-war movement at
Cedarville or was that foreign?
No, no that wasn't- wasn’t allowed and it, and we wouldn't have done that anyway though.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay so now beginning of ’69, he heads off to training and then at that
point while he's still in the States and in training how much did you see or hear from him?
Well when he was in basic and then the AIT I didn't see him.
Interviewer: Okay.
But then he was went to NCO school. So, in Fort Benning I went to Fort Benning and then he
went on to Fort Polk and I was with him there. In fact, a buddy of his who got drafted at the same
time, his wife and I both went to Benning and cause they went through, all the training together
in the States. So, we went there and lived off base, and we got to see them on the weekends.
�Interviewer: Okay so you're going down at Fort Benning Georgia and this is now what
middle of 1969?
Yes.
(6.19)
Interviewer: At that point, okay describe a little bit what life there was like?
Well I got a job as a babysitter, we lived in a mobile home, a small mobile home, and Shar and I
lived together and the guys course were on base, we could go on base on Wednesday nights and
see ‘em and then they actually got the weekends off every weekend so we could… So, it was- it
was nice to be there, but it was lonely because we didn't know anybody of course.
Interviewer: Alright now, was, did you notice kind of a- a different situation as far as race
relations or things like that from where you would be? I mean did you notice, the south
wasn't officially segregated at that point, but did anything seem different or did that not
register with you?
That didn't register, you know I grew up in rural Iowa so there, you know I wasn't accustomed to
other races or, it's not that I had any problem with them I just hadn't grown up around other
races.
Interviewer: Yeah so but then I guess the question then, did you see how black and white
people in the civilian world related to each other?
Yes, yes.
(7.31)
Interviewer: And did that seem different from what you were used to?
Yeah it was different, it was different, but I didn't, it just it didn't affect me, I guess.
Interviewer: Okay so now you go from there and to Fort Polk, Louisiana, and what was…
�That was a culture shock because Fort Polk is nothing like Fort Benning, I always said Fort Polk
was kind of the arm pit of the United States. It was, we lived in a 10 by 50 trailer the four of us,
yeah, the four of us did. And cockroaches and it just was nasty, and we'd get up early in the
morning and fix breakfast for the guys before they went on base which about four o'clock in the
morning and we’d opened the cupboard door and the roaches would run. And it so it was not
nice and when we moved from Benning to Polk, we had to pawn some things cause we didn't
have any money so that was rough too. Guys could eat on base but Shar and I had to scrounge.
(8.33)
Interviewer: Okay and were you able to get jobs in Louisiana?
We didn't in Louisiana.
Interviewer: Okay and then how long were you there?
Well it was his OJT, so it was probably eight weeks maybe, eight/ eight and a half.
Interviewer: So, he basically did one cycle of…
Yes, yes.
Interviewer: The training as a very- very new sergeant yeah.
And it was during that time that I got pregnant and we'd discussed it, Paul was not in favor of it
and at that point I thought well you may be going somewhere and not coming back, so I wanted
to do that.
Interviewer: Alright so now from that stint does he get any leave time, or does he get
straight, sent straight to Vietnam?
We did get leave over Christmas.
Interviewer: Okay.
So, we went back to Iowa and Illinois where his parents lived and kind of split the time there.
�Interviewer Okay.
So, he had that time.
Interviewer: Alright so you're, now you're and then basically do you go and stay with your
parents or?
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah, I lived with my parents while he was in Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay now what was it like to send him off to Vietnam?
(9.44)
It was horrible. I just remember we took him; my, I was in Iowa at the time we took him to the
airport and when he took off, I just collapsed because it- it was real.
Interviewer: Okay and then once he left, how long did it take before you heard anything
from him?
I don't, I have all of his letters I kept them all. He couldn't keep mine because of the humidity
and the rot in Vietnam, but I, it was several weeks because you know in country and they had to
go through some training or whatever to adapt themselves to Vietnam. So, it was a while before I
heard from him because he went in January, so it was probably sometime in February that I
heard from him first.
Interviewer: Okay now once he left did you pay more attention to the news or whatever
you could learn about what was happening over there?
Yes then- then you know it, all we had because you know we didn't have the communications
like the soldiers do now, so all we had was the six o'clock news and I glued myself to the TV
every night to see what was going on and of course they showed battles. That's what they had
�and that you know the numbers of men that were killed and so every time I'd watch it, I'd look to
see well maybe I'll see Paul. Of course, I didn’t, and I never would have cause there were no
cameras where he was. But it was it was hard, very hard.
(11.22)
Interviewer: Alright now your back home in Iowa I mean did the people in the community
know what your situation was or?
Yeah it was small community and of course they knew he was gone and that I was there and, but
people didn't understand, and I think this was probably countrywide, you know there were the
protests going on and we saw that on TV as well. But- but nobody said much, I was pregnant,
and I can remember one experience my dad and I sang together at a church function and after
we, and I was very pregnant and one of the men after wards said something to my dad. And he
says, “how can a man go to a war and leave a pregnant wife at home and to live with her parents.
I just don't understand that. How can that be?” So, he didn't- he didn't understand what was going
on and there was, that was just kind of I think the whole attitude.
Interviewer: Okay now how old do you think that man was?
He was probably around my dad's age.
(12.34)
Interviewer: Okay so he didn't remember the World War II stuff when everybody did
that?
He must not have been in World War II I don't know.
Interviewer: Yeah but it was certainly a fairly common thing at that point in time. But
okay so he's just, now he's just looking at this situation kind of seeing it that way.
Yeah.
�Interviewer: Alright now again the small-town Iowa you weren't gonna be confronting any
direct antiwar anything.
No.
Interviewer: Okay.
No there was none of that.
Interviewer: And did people ask after him or did they just…
Yes, yeah- yeah and especially I'm involved in church and so yes, they were, they wanted to
know how he was and how were things going and all I could tell them was from what the letters
said.
Interviewer: Okay, and what kinds of things did he put in the letters?
Not a lot, he said very little in fact I just was going over them recently and mostly it was,
“wouldn't it be nice if I could come home when the baby's born, maybe something could happen,
and well you know I could come home, see if that, you know see if I can come home.” And but
he wouldn't, he just say, “it's hot here and, or it's rainy,” but he never really did say what he was
doing, which was probably a good thing.
(13.48)
Interviewer: Yeah sort of one- one of the issues with letters and things like that, the
government by and large didn't censor communications sent from Vietnam, but the men by
and large censored themselves.
Exactly.
Interviewer: Okay, now some people used cassette tapes or things like that, did he ever do
any of that and?
�No, and you know some of the guys that are here at the reunion they took cameras and they had
pictures. He was in the jungle and he had a rucksack that weighed I forget how many pounds and
he says, “I just didn't want any more weight in my rucksack.” So, he didn't have a camera or a
cassette recorder, he couldn't, he didn't carry anything except what he needed.
Interviewer: Right, okay and did you have any sense of where he was generally? Was he
allowed to tell you that or did you figure that out?
(14.37)
Yeah, he- he did say he was in the A Shau Valley, and that's pretty much you know so then I'd
get a map and see where is that? You know it was pretty up, far up north near the DMZ and.
Interviewer: And did he ever mention the Ripcord Firebase or any of the other places?
He mentioned a couple places, I in fact I was looking to see if he had mentioned Ripcord because
that was, until he came back that was unfamiliar to me. Camp Evans cause I know they were
there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
For a little bit and then after he was wounded, he went to Cam Ranh Bay to recoup so those
names were in the letters.
Interviewer: Right, yeah and so that's, you just have, okay so when did you have the baby?
(15.27)
Had the baby, well that's another story because I was due July 3rd. Paul was wounded May 5th.
Interviewer: Okay.
A couple days after that I went to town with my mom to mail him a seven-pound box of cookies.
So, he could share with his buddies and went to the post office and then we went to the flower
shop for some reason, I don't remember it was a Western Union place too. I didn't know it at the
�time but they had gotten the telegram at the Western Union about Paul's being wounded but she
didn't say anything and so we went home. My dad was in the kitchen, he's farming, okay this is
in May when he’s out in the fields which was unusual and he met me in the kitchen and told me
that the County Sheriff had gone out to him in the field to tell him, small town.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Tell him what had happened and then Dad came and told me that Paul had been wounded. Then
we got the telegram from the flower shop in town.
(16.34)
Interviewer: Okay.
So- so anyway, that's the back story.
Interviewer: So, that- that- that’s there, so that happens in May and then.
Lance was born June 12th he was due July 3rd. My doctor was a Vietnam vet, he said it was
probably… sums the trauma of learning all that which caused Lance to come early.
Interviewer: Okay but there's still a gap of several weeks between when you got the news.
Yes, yeah.
Interviewer: Was that, did that, did you then have problems with the pregnancy or did
this- this just something that just happened sooner than it should have?
It just happened sooner, yeah. I did get a letter from Paul you know saying, “I'm in the hospital,
I'm okay.” So, you know that was good.
Interviewer: So how much of a lag time was there between the telegram and the letter?
Oh, it would have been at least a week and a half I would say at least.
(17.28)
�Interviewer: Alright now did the telegram say enough to give you an idea of what the
situation was or?
It just said that he had taken, he was under fire and I know that after the fact he told me that it
was at night and they couldn't get them off where they were. The hill where they were so he
directed fire and continued to- to help his men well because he was a sergeant so, to help his men
until they could get him in the next day and he- he was wounded so he got accommodation for
that.
Interviewer: Okay so how did you sort of deal with that in the meantime? What kind of
stuff ran through your head?
I- I didn't know what to think you know I knew he had been wounded. He told me he was gonna
be okay, so I took him for, at his word.
Interviewer: Yeah, I guess before that, before you actually hear from him, you know that
first week.
Oh yeah, I- I was a mess. I didn't know what to think.
(18.30)
Interviewer: Alright so now, okay so you've got at least some level of reassurance, okay this
is gonna be alright. How long was it before he came back?
Well because Lance was born three weeks early the first night, he had, my water broke
gradually. So, he had a sporadic pneumonia and about didn't make it. So, my doctor of course
who was the Vietnam vet said, “we need to bring Paul home.” So, they called the Red Cross and
they contacted Paul out in the jungle, brought him in and he didn't know anything. He was told
that the baby was born dead and the wife was near death and he didn't know anything different,
until he got stateside in, at Fort Washington or Fort Lewis in Washington and called home.
�Interviewer: Okay.
And I was actually fine, and Lance was fine and went home the day that Paul got back into the
states.
(19.35)
Interviewer: Okay now was this still just a temporary leave for him, or had he?
30 days.
Interviewer: Okay so he got a 30-day leave at- at that point.
Right.
Interviewer: Alright.
Which was wonderful for me, you know, and I got to see him, and he was so thin he had lost so
much weight. I you know he- he's 6’4” and weighed about a hundred sixty pounds, so.
Interviewer: Wow.
He was so thin.
Interviewer: Okay.
But he didn't talk about it much, he didn't talk about what he'd been doing and at that point in
June he'd been on Ripcord.
Interviewer: Okay did you have a sense of how long he'd been in the hospital?
He said he was there for about a week and then recovered for a week and they send him back
out.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay so now, so basically, he doesn't, now did he seem I mean aside
from being thinner, did he seem at all different at that point?
�Yeah, he was different because he was just a fun-loving, joke-telling guy and he was just much
more serious and much more quiet when he came home. Excited to see his son but just he was
different.
(20.47)
Interviewer: And then what was it like sending him back off again?
Yeah that was hard, and it, you know he's told me later it was hard for him because he knew he,
what he was going back to. I didn't, I just knew he was leaving again so it was tough.
Interviewer: Okay and then once we, once he goes back then does he start writing again to
kind of he picks up where he left off?
Yes, he would- he would continue to write but not say much.
Interviewer: Alright so then how much longer did he have on his tour at that point?
Well he asked for an early out to farm with my dad, so he was released the beginning of
November.
Interviewer: Okay alright so he's kind of out of that and now once he's back for good, did
you kind of observe him having to readjust to civilian life or?
Well it's interesting because I didn't, I, he- he had been gone, it was time for us to raise a family
and so let's just forget about it. Forget about Vietnam, you're done with that, let's just move on
and that was my attitude, not realizing at the time you know a week before he'd been in the
jungles of Vietnam. No downtime, nothing, he just was out on a tractor on a farm in Iowa
harvesting corn. And he told me later that there were times when he wanted to just get off the
tractor and we had a motorcycle, he wanted to get on that motorcycle and just run, and just go,
and never come back. But he knew he had a family so he couldn't do that, but it was, he was- he
was different, and he was jumpy. He would, I would wake up in the night and find him on the
�floor sleeping. There would be times when I would I remember one night in particular I was
laying there and he'd kinda dozed off and I, we'd had, wasn't an argument, but just a
disagreement or something and I wanted to remedy that and I kind of poked him with my elbow.
Never did I do that again because he jumped out of bed screaming and ran out of the house and
outside and he was just shaking. You know it's just those kinds of things started happening.
(23.16)
Interviewer: Okay and then did that stuff sort of get worse over time or how did it, things
work through that?
It- it, kind, that kind of got better, you know that, I mean it took time. But I- I, what happened
was I learned what I could and couldn't do. It was interesting because just a few weeks ago I was
talking to a really good friend of mine and it dawned on me that my husband has had PTSD for
forty-eight years.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Through the whole time and you know I can go back and- and talk about some of the things that
happened in our marriage and I realized that it was just a result of Vietnam. It changed our whole
family, you know it affected our children, it affected me, and he- he says that too. You know
he's, he realizes it. It's, the PTSD has changed, you know its kind of melded into different things
over the years, but…
Interviewer: Yeah well, they're different components and you get people have different
combinations and there is kind of that- that- that reflex action which is really very direct
and standard PTSD. That's the kind of thing that- that sometimes will get treated with
drugs but then there's a lot of other things that you're carrying as well. There is sort of a
moral injury, and just, and there can be survivor guilt, there can be a lot of other kinds of
�things that go on in their head it really doesn't, is different from PTSD and drugs make
those things worse. Did if he ever get formally diagnosed with PTSD?
(24.55)
No, when he came back from Vietnam he says, “I want nothing to do with the military, I want, I
don't want anything.” So, he never did until we moved from Iowa to Illinois in 1999. And there,
there was a clinic and so he decided he'd go to that clinic, so that's when, actually there was a
veteran's office in our town in Illinois. So, he went there got his records all straightened out and
then he went to clinics. So, then he started doctoring with the VA in Illinois. And then when we
moved to Minnesota, they have a great VA system, so he's used them for sure.
Interviewer: Okay that’s sort of, that's- that’s a very long time. Of course, it took a good
long time for the government or anyone to really even recognize sort of what PTSD was.
Yes, yeah in fact I looked that up because PTSD was not even a term.
Interviewer: No.
Until 1980.
Interviewer: Yeah and it took several years after that before the kind of the VA kind of got
on board and decided to deal with it.
Right.
So, yeah so, it's so, I guess to the extent that you can kind of describe sort of some of the
effects of all of this on your family or what you think was different because he had to deal
with this?
(26.09)
I felt like I had to walk on eggshells a lot with him. There was a lot of anger and just recently
Paul said that anger was his defense mechanism and he's worked on alleviating anger and now
�he's feeling a lot of emotion, instead of the anger. So, because he was that way, I mean it's not
that we had a bad family life you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
But our son who was born of course when he was in Vietnam, he and Paul would butt heads a lot
and I would have to be the mediator and say, “okay this is what he said, now this is what you
said, and this is, you're really saying the same thing.” So, I did a lot of that. Lance, I was his
English teacher in high school, and I assigned a term paper and Lance wanted to write about
Vietnam, well he wanted to interview Paul. So, I had to go to Paul and ask if it would be okay
that Paul interviewed him and because Paul never talked about Vietnam. It was just he never
talked about it, he would tell a few funny stories once in a while, but he never really discussed it.
So, I went to Paul and he thought about it and he said, “okay but it's got to be in one sitting.”
You know, just one time. So, I sat in the living room while Lance interviewed Paul and talked
about it, well it was in the evening which was not real smart because after that was all over then
Paul had nightmares and flashbacks and stuff that night so but- but Lance at least got the gist of
some of the things, and Paul shared a few things with him about what he went through but really
not too much in depth. It wasn't until several years later while Paul and I were with a couple out
in the woods, we had a campfire, and Paul started talking about it, and it was the first, I was just
in shock because he had never said anything about any of his experiences and I always felt like
that was kind of the watershed moment, you know he just started. And people would ask him
about it, but he wouldn't tell them a whole lot unless it was somebody he knew and because he
said, “well unless you've been there you just don't understand.” Which and he wouldn't even, he
started sharing more things with me too at the time, but there were, I mean there were things that
I could and couldn't do, you know he kind of wanted me around a lot and so there were things I
�wouldn't get involved in because of that. I did of course get involved in the, I was a teacher, I
taught, but it was just, it was hard, and you know I've heard people say that marriage is hard but
it's really hard with a Vietnam vet.
(29.09)
Interviewer: Yeah and of course you- you get this- this sort of change to some extent of the
person that you married.
Yes.
Interviewer: They go away and they come back, in some ways they’re somebody else, which
is not a standard experience in a marriage.
Right.
Interviewer: Where you don't have that kind of thing going on.
Right, yeah in one year he, I said he aged ten years in that one year. Now I think that overtime
kind of leveled out, but yeah, he was not the fun, loving, jokester, he didn't have that twinkle, he
didn't have the laugh, he just, he was very subdued, very serious.
Interviewer: So, does some of that guy come back?
Yes, and that came back the first time he came to the Ripcord Reunion. He had known, I didn't
know about this, but he had known about the reunions and had never said much. I think he got
the newsletter et cetera and Craig Van Hout, one of the guys that comes to the reunion.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Contacted and said, “Paul you really need to go to these reunions.” And so, they had an Illinois
gathering just the guys from Illinois and I talked him into going cause it was just probably six
guys.
(30.16)
�Interviewer: Yeah.
And wives. So, we went he's, we sat, we were going to a restaurant and he sat there, he says, “I
don't know about this, I just, I'm not sure.” I said, “yeah.” Well then Dale Lane came and came
up to the car he recognized that this must be the guy and that was it, you know then he talked to
him and we, it was really cool and then Dale Cooper and Dale Lane and one other guy…
Interviewer: Let’s see, LaGrange maybe or?
No, it's Murphy.
Interviewer: Okay, let’s see, George?
George, yes, took me aside at different times and said, “you need to get him to the Ripcord
Reunions,” and I said, “I'll try my best.” Well then, we did come that year in Indianapolis
Interviewer: Okay so what year was that?
2011.
Interviewer: Okay, hey first year I went.
Was it? Yeah same time, yeah. And I just, it was amazing to me because I sat at the tables and
listened to these guys talk and I said, “they're talking the same language.” You know here he
couldn't talk, tell other people about what he'd been through or what was going on because
nobody understood. These guys did and I think that probably helped him more than anything,
and he found connections with these guys and in different battles that he'd been in, skirmishes
you know that had support, and so he was able to put some pieces together and timelines
together.
(31.44)
Interviewer: Yeah sort of getting control of- of what happened to you on- on some level.
Yeah, he said, “I guess I wasn't imagining that, I guess it did happen.”
�Interviewer: And- and- and that's something that- that affects a whole lot of trauma
survivors of one kind or another and you know we see a lot of that today. Very different
kinds of situations, but, and women who are victims of sexual assault or harassment or
things like that, and then once they realize that they're really not alone in this and it's not
their fault, then that changes. And- and for a lot of these guys it works that way too. Of
course, today we have a- a lot of new veterans, people have come back from Iraq and
Afghanistan and so forth and a lot of them are married or in relationships or things like
that. Of course, now you have women who served over in these places.
Sure.
Interviewer: As- as well, I mean do you have any kind of advice or encouragement to offer
family members and people who've done that kind of thing?
(32.42)
Just expect it to be different and- and support the veteran and talk to them, make them talk to you
that's, I didn't do that for a long, long time. I just let it, I buried it and I think I was afraid to have
him tell me or cause you know I, when I was teaching I had him come to the classroom and talk
about Vietnam and I had coached the kids before he came and I said, “just be aware of the kind
of questions you're asking and if he doesn't want to answer, he won't answer.” Of course, one of
the kids says, “did you kill anybody?” You know that's the standard, and I thought I told them
not to ask that question, but there are questions you can ask and I think for anyone dealing with a
veteran you just have to be careful about the questions you ask and let them tell you what's going
on in their heads and little by little.
(33.43)
�Interviewer: Okay and then you mentioned coming to reunions and so forth and you're
listening to the veterans. Do you also find the- the wives have the same kind of experience
as you did or?
Yes, although you know I haven't found a lot of wives who were married to these veterans when
they were in Vietnam. Either their marriages failed, or they weren't married, they were young
you know so they weren't married. So, they're just a few that I've talked to that have had some of
the same experiences that I have.
Interviewer: But I guess a lot of them would have had to learn to live with….
Yes.
Interviewer: …the- the aftereffects.
Yes, yeah- yeah in fact we do talk about that and they say, “oh yeah that's happened, or yeah he's
done this, and yes oh yeah same thing.” So, it's, I think it's common.
Interviewer: Alright anything else you’d- you’d like to add to the story here, or other
particular memories or impressions that you've got?
(34.45)
No, I think like I said, our marriage was hard and has been hard. I think that, you know just being
together and supporting each other, and our faith has been a lot of that. You know I think if we
haven't had that I don't know where he'd be, I'm not sure where I’d be but it's, you just gotta keep
going.
Interviewer: Alright, well I just like to thank you for taking the time to share this story, it's
the kind of thing that a lot of people turns out are interested in and often does not get
recorded at all, so thank you very much.
You’re welcome.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_HansmannL2277V
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Hansmann, Laura (Interview transcript and video), 2018
Date
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2018-11-01
Description
An account of the resource
Laura Hansmann was born in Iowa in 1947. She is the wife of Vietnam veteran Paul Hannsman. Laura discusses the her homefront experiences during the war, the war's effect on her family, child birth while her husband was deployed, as well as the changes she saw as she traveled to various training locations with Paul. She says to expect veterans to be different when they return home and to be supportive by talking to them. She talks about PTSD and the way her husband opened up over time, advising peopel to careful and empathetic when helping a veteran suffering from PTSD.
Creator
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Hansmann, Laura R.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74171dce63c294a5bc148d92dd183485.mp4
cf42598e88ab5fb7cc8e8dadcb799642
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0264e14515c4e7c062351b27bcd5d607.pdf
926a0ecd2379447020788e532719cb08
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Tom Friar
Interview Length: (1:37.24)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: We're talking today with Tom Friar of Sparta, Michigan and the interviewer is
James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project. Okay, now Tom
can you begin with some background on yourself and to begin with where and when were you
born?
I was born in 1948, in 1948, December in Grand Rapids, Michigan and lived there all my
life until about 10 years ago I moved to Sparta.
Interviewer: Okay what did your family do for a living when you were growing up?
Well my dad, my mom and dad were divorced, and my mom worked several different odd
and end jobs and there was a, we grew up with family, five kids and we just had a good
time growing up in the 50s.
Interviewer: Okay and did you move around a lot or?
No, no we stayed there all, the whole time so…
Interviewer: Okay and then where'd you go to high school?
(1.26)
I went to Creston High School. I didn't graduate until I got back out of the service. I had a
friend that was in… I was a freshman myself with another guy and a friend of ours, an
acquaintance got, was drafted went in, Vietnam and got killed and we kind of got upset
about it and so we enlisted in the army.
Interviewer: How old were you when you enlisted?
Seventeen.
�Interviewer: Okay and did you need your mother's permission to enlist or how did that work?
Oh, you know I don't remember if I did or not at that time. I, if I did, she probably
reluctantly signed it, but she was kind of proud, you know. I was in a lot of trouble off and
on, and you know but just kids growing up drinking beer and having fun.
(2.19)
Interviewer: Alright, okay so then you enlisted, so when do you actually report for service then?
In May of ‘67 I went down to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training. And…
Interviewer: When you were, did you have a physical first and that kind of thing?
Oh yes. Went down to Detroit, and while in line in Detroit, I enlisted so, but there were
hundreds of guys they were drafted, and at that time the Marines were taking a beating,
and nobody was wanted to enlist in the Marines. And I remember there's this big line and
there was somebody who's counting every third man, “you’re a Marine.” And guys were
going crazy and they counted me as I was in on that and I said, “no, no, no, no I enlisted.”
“Okay you go over here then.” So, I got out of the Marines, that was significant at the time.
Interviewer: Alright now at the physical did you, were you aware of anybody you know trying to
beat the system or get themselves disqualified?
(3.31)
You know I really didn’t notice that, in basic training I- I saw some guys in particular one
that strikes out, in the barracks and he was, he unscrewed a light bulb and broke it and
started eating the glass, what the hell. And they took him out and we never saw him again
so, you know. But other than you know some guys just you know, just really didn't want to
be there, and just didn't do some of the stuff they were supposed to do. So, but nothing
other than that light bulb things stands out.
�Interviewer: Alright okay so you get… now was- was the physical particularly thorough or was it
a cursory thing?
I think it was mostly cursory, I, nothing special, checked your heart, checked to see if you
had flat feet, I guess. You know nothing that stands out to me anyways that was you know
really serious.
Interviewer: Sure.
So, I don't think anybody back then had a, if you could walk and talk, I think you were
taken.
Interviewer: Yeah there were some phases in Vietnam where- where that- that kind of happened
and other times they were a little more careful. Anyways, that's why we ask, we find out. Okay
so from there then how did they get you down to Fort Knox?
(4.58)
As I recall we took a train down from Detroit area and to Fort Knox and it was the first
time I had ever been on the train so it's kind of a different, exciting and different. Got sick
of it after a couple hours, but you know rocking back and forth.
Interviewer: Now what kind of reception do you get at Fort Knox?
Oh, we’re talking 40 some years now. I- I remember leaving the training it seems like we
got on a bus and going into Fort Knox itself and then climbing off a bus probably can of
like the movies you see now, you get out and there's a drill sergeant there. He’s a big black
guy and I don't- I don’t think I've ever seen a bigger guy at that time than this guy, and he
had his little hat on and, and he didn't take no crap. He was from the Virgin Islands, and
he was a tough guy, but he was also fair. And needless to say, I've never done a push-up
since I got out of basic training. I said I'll never do them again.
�Interviewer: Alright, now did they have to spend some time processing you before you start the
regular training and what kind of stuff did you do when you got there?
I remember going through, getting a haircut I think, I don't know if that was the first
thing, but everybody got that buzz cut. And then got a ton of shots and I remember
different times during basic one… but in the very beginning got a couple shots and then we
went through like a warehouse I guess it was, and got uniforms, underwear, and you know
uniforms, boots, you know the regular stuff, and a big old duffel bag and that's about what
I can remember of that.
(7.09)
Interviewer: Okay, did you take any tests there or had you already done testing earlier? The new
aptitude tests and things like that?
Seems like I took them before, but I'm not positive… and so…
Interviewer: Alright now what did the training itself consists of?
Well you had to learn how to a shoot a rifle, throw grenades, a lot of physical training.
Every morning PT I guess it was. A lot of running, and different things. I remember going
through the CS gas chamber, stuff like that, and I, you know just I guess regular training,
how to, you know, drilling and you know just…
Interviewer: Okay how much emphasis was there on discipline?
(8.10)
I think it was all on discipline, I that’s like I say, do push-ups constantly. If you even look
cross eyed give me 10 or 20 or whatever it was and but I think it was like a game, you know
I mean you are gonna listen to me, you're not, I'm not your mom no more, and you can't
tell me to go screw off or whatever. You're gonna do it and for the most part I think
�everybody did, there was a few guys, you know a few, you know and did what they wanted
to do and, but I didn’t see much of that.
Interviewer: Okay, now how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the army?
I think it was pretty hard. I think the discipline, I didn't have much discipline growing up
and so I had, I struggled with that I was on KP and of course pushups and stuff and I
didn't really get out of that until I got to Vietnam and that's where I kind of got my shit
together. And so, but I wasn't supposed to be in the infantry either, and that was another
story so, I suppose you want to know that.
(9.22)
Interviewer: But when you enlisted were you allowed, did you… allowed to select what your
MOS would be or whatever?
Yes, yes, I was supposed to be a truck driver and so that’s- that's what I was gonna be and
I was asked your first choice where you want to go and I said “Germany, and then- then
Vietnam.” So because I figured I had three years, maybe I'd see somewhere else pretty
good too and then end up there, but that's not the way it worked out so… but at that time
you know in ‘67 that's when a lot of stuff was going on so they basically, I'm assuming that
most people went there.
Interviewer: Yeah well, they went there and then that can also affect what specialization you get
too, because if they need people in a certain area, they'll take them regardless of what they
promised you.
(10.18)
Right, yeah.
�Interviewer: Okay now you're gonna go back a year, you’re in basic training, now some people
report a-a fair amount of discipline or things happening that were kind of beyond what was
supposed to happen. You know, sergeant's punching people or beating them up or those kinds of
things, was that going on when you went through?
I didn't see any of that, for one thing as big a guy as he was, nobody messed with him, and
but like you know there's some black guys that did and I remember once and I don't want
to say… some of these black guys would say, you know, “crazy nigger,” or something like
that and then he had the whole company there and he, and he says, “I'm gonna tell
everyone of you assholes one thing right; I'm not a nigger. I'm from the Virgin Islands.
You, you, and you are the niggers.” And that shut everybody up right then and there. And
but, you know I never saw any race stuff when I was there. Basic training, I mean there
was a- a black guy that I was, I bunked next to and he was in the National Guard, he and a
couple other guys were there for the National Guard and basic. I kind of hang out, hung
out with those guys a little bit. In fact, one of them, we got a pass for something I don't
remember say, and I went home to Toledo, or something. I think whether you're from or
Toledo for a day or two, and then came back. I guess maybe it was one of the holidays, in
May/ June, I don't know.
Interviewer: Yeah fourth of July maybe or something.
(12.00)
It could have been, yeah. But I remember I went home with, because they weren't very far
from Kentucky. And then we all got on the bus and he went there and had a good time, as
underage drinking, but you know I did that for a lot of time.
�Interviewer: Okay, now were there very many National Guard guys training with you there that
you can recall?
In the company I was in I would, I want to say probably a third of them were. That's
approximate I…
Interviewer: Yeah, did the National Guard guys get treated any differently than the rest of you
because they were there, and they were going back home again?
I would, I don't think they were treated any different. I think maybe some of the guys that
were US that were drafted and- and maybe some of the guys that enlisted like myself may
have had some problems with it. I personally didn't because I got along good with them, I
mean hell they were going through the same thing I were- I was, so.
(13.05)
Interviewer: Okay, now were you in good physical shape when you went in?
Maybe yeah, I was in pretty good shape you know, I- I, as a kid we used to run around all
the time and stuff. I was, I was in pretty good shape.
Interviewer: Okay so the physical part of the training wasn't too tough?
No, the only thing I had trouble was a, was a ladder thing that we had to do. I couldn’t get
that down very good, but other than that you know, the running and crawling and climbing
and stuff like that.
Interviewer: Now a lot of people who might be watching this won't have any idea even what the
ladder thing was, so can you explain what you were doing?
Oh, I’m not sure what its really called.
Interviewer: Were you like hanging? Were they over your head and you were moving?
�Yes, it’s like it’s, it could have been a ladder. I don't know for all I know, but it's parallel
bars I guess it's…
Interviewer: Or monkey bars or something like that.
Yeah.
Interviewer: I think they get called sometimes.
You get, you climb up on a couple steps up and then you gotta go across, maybe… I have
no depth perception here. Maybe fifteen foot or something like that.
Interviewer: Yeah, you're- you're hanging from these things and you've got to go hand over your
hand, so you're hanging down you’ve got to move it, yeah.
Yeah, you're swinging around, and you know if you're good at it which some guys are like
a monkey, go through it. I wasn't like that.
Interviewer: Alright and so while you had some discipline issues you didn't have anything that
was really big or that would get you serious discipline, or anything else like that?
Oh no, no.
Interviewer: Alright so how long did the basic training last?
(14.30)
I don’t know, I think what is it? Sixteen weeks or something like that, I can’t remember.
Interviewer: Well basic is normally eight and then there’s eight of advanced training after that.
Okay.
Interviewer: Okay, so what was your, where did you go next after Fort Knox?
Well…
Interviewer: Or did you stay at Fort Knox for AIT?
�I actually, I had a stay; no, I was supposed to go somewhere but my orders never came in.
And so I was stuck in the same company and it's actually kind of fun because what had
happened there was they didn't know what to do with me because they didn't have no
orders so I stayed right in the barracks and everybody was gone except one guy, he was a
sergeant for the 1st Cav and he was in kinda, he had some problems, but he was in head of
supply downstairs. So, they said, “Friar you're going down there,” and that's and so I
worked with him for, you know I bet you I was probably still there a couple three, four
weeks, and then they said, “if your orders don't come in we're going to try and get you here
as permanent party.” And this guy, the sergeant from our 1st Cav. I wish I could
remember his name, he was a really good guy, he treated me really good, and he lived in
Elizabethville. I think it's Elizabethville, outside in Kentucky. And he’d take me there now
and then and we’d drink beer and- and he said to me, he says “Tom, Tommy,” I don't
know why people always call me Tommy all my life but, he said, “Tommy if I could tell you
one thing if you get stuck going to Vietnam you try to get into 1st Cav.” He says, “because
they- they treat you good, they got all the helicopters in the world and if they, if it's possible
to get food to you, they'll get it to you.” And- and I took that, and I said, “okay.” And as it
was, I ended up at 1st Cav as a sergeant too. So…
(16.33)
Interviewer: Okay, but the plan to just keep you there as permanent party obviously doesn't
happen?
No, my orders came in and then, then I was sent to Fort Dix, New Jersey and that's where
AIT for a truck driver, and I took basic training- or AIT training there. And I don't
�remember a whole lot of that other than driving a damn truck, and cleaning them, and this
and that and…
Interviewer: What kind of truck were you driving?
Most of the time it was a deuce and a half, but it was up to kind of like semis too, but I
didn't do too much of that, it was mostly the smaller. And Jeeps, and like- like the old
ambulance trucks, and stuff like that. And met a Chinese guy there from New York, Chan
was his name and he and I hung out, because I left everybody else. Nobody else that I went
through basic training, they were are all two, three, four weeks ahead of me. So, and I met
this kid and- and on a weekend pass he took me to New York City. Never, and he lived
there and took me to where he lived, stayed at his house. And took me to Chinatown, what
a, what a, what an awakening for a 17-year-old kid.
(18.03)
Interviewer: Yeah, you weren't in Grand Rapids anymore!
No, I mean it’s like across every street somebody wants to sell you their body and it was
like the proverbial; open your coat, you could buy watches… anything. God I never seen
that, you know for Grand Rapids a 17-year-old kid, so that was growing up experience too.
Interviewer: Alright so when you finished the- the time at Fort Dix you finished that training,
have they told you where you're gonna go, or what you’re gonna do next?
Yeah, they-they say, I was, had orders from Vietnam and I, they, I got a leave I think it was
for I want to say 30 days, but I don't know if it was 30 days.
Interviewer: 30 days was a standard length at that point at sometimes it wound up being less or
whatever, but 30 days is pretty likely.
�Yeah, I think that's, yeah, it's probably what it was then. Because I didn't take any other
leave, a weekend pass, or a couple day pass is all, up until that time so.
Interviewer: Okay 30 days, and then from home now do you head straight out to Vietnam or how
does that work?
Well I went from home to Seattle- Tacoma, Seattle and that's where we flew out of there, to
Vietnam. I think we went via Alaska, Japan…
Interviewer: Yeah that was one of the standard routes, you went out of Seattle you usually took
the northern route to go that way. Okay and then where did you land in Vietnam?
Cam Ranh Bay.
(19.41)
Interviewer: Okay and when did you arrive there?
November, it was, I want to say 13- 12- 13 something like that, it was before Thanksgiving.
Yeah it was right around the 12th or 13th of November.
Interviewer: Okay so November of ’67. Okay, alright now what was your first impression of
Vietnam when you got there?
Hotter than hell. And they had a smell, a certain smell to it and I don't think I'll ever forget
that smell. That, it was like the whole country. Wherever, we went, all across the country as
it was a- a certain smell, I don't know what it was. And hot and muggy.
Interviewer: Did you land during the day or at night?
I think it was, I think it was morning. Early mid-morning or something like that.
Interviewer: And you got off the plane, what do they do with you?
(20.49)
�Well there to it- I think we, as I recall we all got on a bus again and taxied over to a bunch
of billets set up. And we were assigned a certain, you had to get up. They had like a big
parade ground and everybody, certain times a day I don't, two/ three times a day you had
to report there, and they'd call your name off. And tell you then, they'd say, “okay here you
go on here, there, or wherever.” And at that time, I don't recall what I do exactly but
somehow, I finagled my way into getting into the 1st Cav and I was at Cam Ranh Bay for I
think two days. And first- first night there I pulled guard duty I still remember this. Here
we're in a war zone, they give you at that time it was an m14. They gave you three bullets, I
said, “what the hell are you supposed to do with three bullets?” And there's bunch of us, I
don't know their names now but in this bucket we're all scared shitless, you know you don't
know what the heck's going on. But three bullets, what the hell, I guess it's for me you, and,
you I guess if there's a bunch of them coming but that struck me as weird.
(22.19)
Interviewer: Were you actually on the kind of exterior perimeter were you inside the base
somewhere on guard duty?
I don't remember now; I would hate to think it was on the perimeter, you know with three
bullets but that's what we were assigned. Given a helmet, a flak jacket, a m14 and three
bullets it seemed like. For some reason that’s… it might not even be true I don't know but
that's what it seems like I remember.
Interviewer: It was a big base and particularly if you were somewhere in the interior of it then…
Yeah.
Interviewer: They really didn't expect it to be any bullets. So…
Yeah- yeah but…
�Interviewer: Alright but then at some point, now but no, couple days now you get your orders
and they say 1st Cav?
Yep.
Interviewer: Okay so now where did you get, where were they- where were they when you
joined them?
They were in An Khê, it's kind of Central Highlands there and I remember getting on a
C… I don't know if it was a C-130 or a C-123, one of the two and flying into An Khê base,
and I remember they got a, they called it monkey mountain I think it was. Big mountain
had a huge- huge 1st Cav patch painted on it and that was my first, you know sight that I
saw there. And then I remember there was like maybe seven-day in-country training thing
that we had to do. We had a- because I was trained as a truck driver. So, I had no infantry
training to speak of and so we had to rappel off this big-ass tower and oh my god I just
couldn't see myself doing that. But I remember going down there and somehow ended up
upside down, going down and looking upside down at the sergeant “you’re an idiot, get up
there and do it right.” I climbed back up there and then I finally did it and then I was okay
from that, but he looked at me from here to here, “you’re an idiot.”
(24.41)
Interviewer: Alright, so now in this sort of week-long training course, did- did you now fire an
m16?
Yeah that was my first time I fired a m16 there and in fact I never saw, after I left Cam
Ranh Bay, I never saw a m14 again. And, or not, I've seen them but not had…
Interviewer: Never had had to use one, yep. Okay, now what else was included in the training
your rappelling, learning how to go out of helicopters I guess and then the basic weapons?
�Yeah, I guess throw a couple grenades we had to do a little, kind of like a patrol I think in
a, I know it was a secure area, but you're still very ya know, nervous. But that's it, pulling
guard duty, you know we had to pull guard duty all the time. And I don't remember muchmuch more of the training other than that rappelling that kind of, it nailed in my head.
Interviewer: Right, do you think they try to teach you anything about Vietnam, or the society, or
how to behave while you're there?
(25.51)
Oh yeah, I remember that yeah, you yeah, they, I think that was classroom stuff. And it
going through the money, I never even thought of that until you brought that up, but yeah.
To treat them like respect because you're in their country and you know don't shoot their
water buffaloes don't do this, and do that, and just you know treat them like you would
you're a guest in your country. Okay.
Interviewer: And did you get warned about VD and things like that?
Oh yeah, it's funny too because An Khê … I don't know if I should even bring that up but
An Khê, right outside An Khê and there's a little village of An Khê. And inside that village
is like another little village it's called Sin City and it's u-shaped. And I remember it's all
bars and whorehouses in it, and that's where I spent my 18th birthday. I got a day pass
from our CEO and I had a great, great 18th birthday and then CEO wasn't real happy,
because the, this was after my in country training.
Interviewer: Right.
Because the MPs brought me back, and, but it was a memorable 18th birthday.
Interviewer: How long did you stay at An Khê?
(27.22)
�Oh well I want to say in January until January, because I'm almost positive I spent
Christmas there. And I remember I was signed to this company, S4, I was in S4 the at the
time and C Company, they had like a listening post or some posts outside the wire. And
they got attacked and they, it's too close to take helicopters and so they- they sent four of us
truck drivers, and four trucks, and C Company and I remember I was in the lead truck
and there's a guy, Top Fowler he was a first sergeant in C Company he later got killed and
up by Khe Sanh, but I remember him telling me, “just do as I say, if we start, if we start
getting shot at,” he said “stop the truck immediately, turn it off and get your ass out of the
truck.” I don't know, I'd only been in country maybe two weeks, or three weeks, or
something like that. And I says, “okay.” And I… you know we got so far, and then there
was some shooting going on and I'm looking around and he says, “out now” and I got my
belt hooked. I had like an issued belt, hooked on a- something on the truck when I went to
jump and I couldn’t get off there and he comes running around there and he “shewww”
with his survival knife, he cuts it into two and I fell out and I look and then it was over.
And just that quick everything was over, and I got with the other truck drivers and we're
looking at these trucks. As much shooting and shit that was going on, there wasn't one
bullet hole or nothing. I said, ‘this can't be that bad, those guys are bad shots.” So, all
needless to say that we had fun with that.
(29.27)
Interviewer: Now at this point did you have, were you assigned to a, you were in a battalion but
were you still a truck driver at that point?
Yes, I was assigned to S4 company, I think it was S4, just the supply.
�Interviewer: Okay Supply Company and is this for, is this a division, regiment, battalion level
or?
Company, company.
Interviewer: Okay well you're a company but are you…
Battalion, battalion level so and what we did is we drove the trucks and they had these
mules they called these things and we would shuttle a lot, the supplies, as the supplies came
in whether it be ammo or whatever and we supply go take them to different companies that
needed it. And load helicopters for supply that was being sent out and stuff like that. And
we also did I think there was some mail when the mail came in somebody would sort it and
we'd make sure to get on the right helicopters and stuff like that.
(30.30)
Interviewer: Okay now what was your parent unit that you were attached to? Which battalion of
the?
1st- 1st Air Cav, 1st of the 5th.
Interviewer: Okay 1st Battalion, 5th Regiment then.
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay, alright so you’re at An Khê for a while and basically, you're doing that- that
supply duty basically and driving and that kind of thing and then sometime in January you
move? Where do you move?
It seems like it was January.
Interviewer: That- that fits the division’s chronology so where did you go?
We convoy in again we, C Company was on our trucks and we convoyed. There's a huge
convoy and it seems that it was Highway 1, we went all, we went up through Phu Bai, Hué,
�Da Nang, we had, we are, we were going to Quang Tri. And that's where we finally ended
up and on the way up there one of those villages, it's kind of strange how you go through
these village, you go slow, the people and the kids are running in and out and guys were
throwing C, some C- rations and/ or some candy to the kids, and I hit a little kid on a
bicycle and I didn't kill him, but got kind of screwed up a little bit I guess. Broken, I don't
know exactly what happened but from that time on, I finished that convoy, but from that
time on I guess the army figured that I wasn't really meant out to be a truck driver. So, I
thought wow I wonder what the hell is gonna happen now. And then they assigned me to an
infantry out-- company and then that's when I, I was with, I was hoping I'd be with C
company anyways if it, if I had to because I knew at least the first sergeant. And but I was
assigned to an A Company, the 1st of the 5th, and that's where you know, and it was a good
company I had, like I said I had no infantry training and fairly new to country, a couple
months and eighteen. And there was a guy, Carly Gunther was his name. He's from
Minnesota, nice, he's older guy but everybody was older to me then.
(33.05)
Interviewer: So, he could've been like 20 or something, or 22.
Yeah but he was little older. He had- he had I think two kids and he kind of took me, he
was a sergeant, and he took me under- under his- his arm and kinda you know because I
didn't… and- and he- he helped me a lot. And- and so, I stayed with him and then you
know I did a lot of liaison work between supply and stuff and a lot of radio
communications and stuff like that and they kind of kept me be at- you know not, what can
I say…
�Interviewer: Well got you orientated basically, learned how, about how the unit works and what
goes on.
Right and so mostly well Friar you used to work in supply so you're gonna be our contact
with that, if we need something, you're gonna get your butt on radio, so that's basically
most of what I did. And but it was- it was altogether a different animal you know; I mean
out there on the field.
Interviewer: Okay now what were you on a base when you got up there or what kind of setup did
they have?
Well when we got there Quang Tri they had a, it was a beach area it's called The Wonder
Beach and we had to secure that and then keep patrolling it all the time. Because the Navy
was bringing these huge amphibious, I've never seen anything so big and floating and then
it would go right onto the ground. Huge things, and they would bring supplies. So we had
to secure that whole Wonder Beach area for quite a while we did that and that, we were
there through the Tet up there in Quang Tri and I recall how what a bitch it was walking
in the sand, you know ugh, you know beautiful beach but yet how it wasn’t real friendly
and…
(35.05)
Interviewer: Now the Tet Offensive starts January 30th/ 31st not long after you've gotten up there.
Did your base get attacked when that started? Or was it quiet where you were?
There was… we had an air assault in a couple areas where they were but The Wonder
Beach itself, I don't remember them being attacked, you know like that but in the- in the
town of Quang Tri it was kind of bad. And there were, some of our companies, I don't
�remember which ones, but we would have to air assault into certain areas to help out
another company and this and that. And but it was- it was, wasn’t real fun- fun you know.
Interviewer: Now when they were doing the air assaults were you going with them now?
Yes, yeah- yeah.
Interviewer: Okay and what was it like doing that for the first time or do you remember that at
all?
Oh I remember exactly, it's, I don't know how you really explain it, a lot of fear and- and I
don't remember how many air assaults I went on with those guys but most of them were
quiet LZ's you know maybe a couple now there would be hot but…
Interviewer: Well when the call came to go out and do one of these things what happens? How
did they organize the company to go and launch them on a mission like that?
(36.41)
Well I remember we'd all kind of, well we’d get our stuff, our packs, our rucksacks, and
ammos issued out. Everything that you would need; grenades, everybody carried a bunch
of sixty caliber, and we all carried at least one mortar round. And then we just kind of wait
for the helicopters to come in, they’d come in we’d, as I recall six/ seven guys maybe get on
a bird at a time and go out and do your thing. It was kind of exciting riding in the
helicopters, to this day I'd love to do it again, but you know, especially under certain,
different circumstances. But it was very frightening, I you know I won't say I- I ever got
used to it, but I- I remember that the intensity wasn't as bad, you know in my mind that II just kind of knew what I had to do type of thing.
Interviewer: Now what was the terrain like in that area that area?
�That area was… there's a lot of sand all over. Not a lot of trees but kind of I would say you
know kind of coastal type thing. I don't remember a whole lot there cause we didn't do a
whole lot air assaults up there, it was mostly when we went up to Khe Sanh area. And there
too, it wasn't a lot of air assaults, but it was a lot of walking and that was- that was like a
jungle then and that was bad up in there.
Interviewer: Okay do you have a sense of about how long you spent at Quang Tri? Another three
months or four?
(38.40)
It doesn't seem… oh no I wasn't nowhere that long. I don't know maybe month and a half
it seems like.
Interviewer: Okay, alright.
And then there was different camps. If that long, because then we went to a different, there
were different base camps, think Camp Evans was one and there was- there was a- a Camp
Jane, I’m not…
Interviewer: Okay well you're moving around still in the area that's kind of between Quang Tri
and Huế basically, kind of up in the northern coastal areas, different bases.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay, alright now did you have much information on kind of what was going on in
the larger war at that point? Did you know about the fighting in Huế and that kind of thing? Or
the siege of Khe Sanh?
We- we had heard about it some- some. You know but not, we knew it was, you know a lot
was going on all through the country. But I- I remember when we were going up there,
going through Huế and it was a beautiful- beautiful old, I mean it was just like you would
�see in a movie or museum, it was beautiful town. And then I know seven months- several
months later I was coming back through, cause I was coming out of a hospital somewhere
and- and rolled through there. And look around at the devastation of that town, I- I just
heartbroken, oh my god what a historical thing just it's in rubble. But we- we hung around
in there a lot, up in that, I would say between Quang Tri and Khe Sanh area until… I
remember LZ Peanuts that's what I got that concussion and was during that Pegasus thing.
(40.38)
Interviewer: Okay can you explain what- what operation Pegasus was.
What we, what I remember and what I was, remember being told was that the Marines
were in Khe Sanh, they were surrounded and stuff. And we had to go in from outside and
work our way to help them and never dreamt that it would be anything at all what it was.
And there was one of our companies said he heard tracks. Everybody said, “we don't have
no tanks up here.” “No,” this was on the radio because I was on the radio and he says, “no,
this isn’t our tracks.” They heard ‘em, now I don't know if they saw ‘em or not and that
was C company. That was in April I think it was when we were up in there and then May
3rd or 4th at Peanuts as well, we got hit pretty bad. We almost got overrun and that
Fowler, that Sergeant Tom Fowler got- got killed there and I think it was May 3rd.
(41.52)
Interviewer: Okay now can you, before that this is at the LZ Peanuts was that you said or?
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay what, how much actual fighting was your company in before that?
�Oh well it wasn’t 24/7 or anything like that, it was quite, it was off and on. And we’d be, a
lot of it was pulling patrols and you’d always run into ‘em and I don't know how much it
was.
Interviewer: Well would they be relatively short firefight?
Yes, yeah, they were maybe hour, at the most hour or something like that cause we had a
pretty good air coverage you know and artillery coverage so…
Interviewer: So, the enemy would find you and then it gets too dangerous for them and they go
away?
Well they would let the, let it be known that they were there, we lost quite a few guys
though up in there then and…
(42.54)
Interviewer: Now when you were patrolling, would it be platoons going together or would it be a
squad level or?
Was almost all, minimum was platoon and you weren't very far from your other, the
company.
Interviewer: Right.
And yeah especially up there it was never, a lot of times it was the whole company, you
know.
Interviewer: And when you went out, would you carry a radio or were you just carrying m16 or?
Oh well for most of the time when I first got in, I was carrying a radio and then I had an
M16 and a 45. And- and a ton of batteries, those batteries didn’t last real long, there were,
the radio is called I think 25 or something like that. Heavier than hell and I wasn't real big
�and so plus you're always carrying some 60 caliber [30 caliber ammunition for an M60
machine gun] stuff too but, yeah that's basically what a, you know.
(44.01)
Interviewer: Okay but you weren't having to walk point or things like that?
No- no I never had, I never had, I never walked point no, I'm glad I didn't but so.
Interviewer: Okay and how well do you think that the men in your company were performing at
that time, could they, did they know their jobs and do them pretty well?
Yeah, yeah- yeah as far as for the most part we all lived so I knew we were doing- doing
our job pretty good and none of the officers or anybody bitched at us or anything. I know
some people will say, “well a lot of the guys didn't- didn't follow orders.” I said, “I never
saw that,” everybody, I mean they may question, “why do you want me to charge that or
why do you want me to do that?” There was, but ultimately it got done but I never saw, I
never saw anybody disobey an order at least not do anything.
(45.05)
Interviewer: Well in general will the officer’s ones where they seem to know what they were
doing and gave you sensible orders rather than crazy ones?
Right yeah sometimes you’d get a new lieutenant enter and I think captain now and then
went through. They, I think they changed every six months or something like that and so
that but a lot, they were, the second lieutenants I think there was a couple of them kind of
were off-the-wall but…
Interviewer: Well with that would the sergeants keep them in line, or would they do it again?
Yeah, yeah because the CEO would sit down, he would, cause I was by him a lot cause
being an RTO and- and he would- he would set them guys down when they first came in it
�though, you know, this is, you know you don't know shit, you just do what these guys tell
ya. Even if they are sergeants or even a corporal or whatever they've been here for a while
you just learn from them and- and for the most part they did.
Interviewer: Okay so you had good captain's?
Oh yeah- yeah even when I was in S4 I had a good captain and he ended up in a, as a
company leader too in the infantry so it's kind of like a rotation everybody did their thing.
Interviewer: Okay now to talk about that event, LZ Peanuts when that gets attacked and you get
hurt. So, what happened that night?
Well it was a- a pretty good-sized base. They had, we had to secure that, we air assault into
that and just kind of cleared it out. And it wasn't no big deal then and then they brought
some artillery in, I think that’s 105 Howitzers, the smaller canons.
Interviewer: Yeah.
(46.53)
There was, I don’t know, four or five of them, LZ Peanuts was shaped like a peanut I guess
that's why they called it like that. And down on this side, was where the artillery was, those
Howitzers were set up and we had bunkers all around. We made bunkers and we had a CP
up over here. And we're getting incoming all the time; rockets and mortars, mostly rockets.
And at one time I was up in the CP and I always had to unload the helicopters and- and I
kind of liked it because a lot of those guys would come out and throw this stuff off and I
knew ‘em, so I’d say hey to ‘em and stuff, you know. And me and another guy, another guy
got stuck with me too, JT Holman, he was- he was out there with me. Then a rocket came
in followed a helicopter and- and that's where I got my concussion, but I didn't go to the
hospital then, I had broke my eardrum cause I couldn't hear and a little blood out of there.
�And he said, “oh you'll be alright,” they just put some cotton in my ear, “you won't be able
to hear for a while out of that ear,” and now I got tinnitus in that ear. But anyways a rocket
after that, a rocket, this is, it's either May 3rd, May 4th or May 5th. And it was right after
Top Fowler got killed, everybody was down. I was really feeling bad cause I, you know, I
really liked him, he helped me, and I saw him a couple times. And I was really bad, feeling
bad but a rocket came in, it caught one of the ammo dumps. Got that, and that shit was
going and burning and so, what they ended up having to do is pull back. We had to
evacuate that area cause we couldn't control nothing. So, everybody pulled back and I
remember a lot of those artillery guys, left their- their guns and everything in the damn
bunkers when they came. And we ended up gettin’, there was some, it was May 4th and
some sappers got in the wires that night and they came, and a lot of ‘em came through that
area where we evacuated, and the artillery had had a Jeep that they drove on this, I don't
know how in the hell they got it out there, you know the area...
Interviewer: Yeah.
But- but that's what they went, their ammo came in, that's what they used the Jeep to go
get the and bring it down to their area. That thing got blow to hell up there, pretty close
about right where the- the Peanut.
(49.52)
Interviewer: So, basically, were you know occupying one half of the Peanut rather than the
whole Peanut?
I'd say yeah- yeah, I got a half a Peanut here, yeah maybe a little bit more than half. And
there's a huge bomb crater I guess from two thousand pound, I don't know what it was,
that was there all the time. And a lot of us, I wasn’t in that and we were getting fired on
�from the bunkers that we evacuated area, and a lot of it was m16s coming at us. So, that's
when a lot of guys got pissed off, you know from the artillery guys. And that was a pretty
bad night, we had to get, I had to call in emergency resupply of ammo. They couldn't land
so they- they had it on a sling and I remember when I was in S4 too, somebody had that
and everybody back in that area filled the magazine, because you don't have time to fill
magazines when you're getting that. They were filling magazines like a raped ape, you
know and all those would come out and they came in, and they just drop it, get as close as
they could, cause there was a lot of shit going on there, that was bad. And that damn thing
that sling, I popped the smoke, and shit it was from me to the door away, 20 foot. Damn
near killed me, you know it came in and then the shit just flew and so then I had to start
going around and passing, I you know I- I- I was kind- kind of the gofer type and so… I
was handing out ammunition to everybody and then probably I was gettin’ towards dawn.
(51.48)
Interviewer: Now were, was there still shooting going on that point?
Oh yeah, the whole time, now the whole night, well I'll say after… probably sometime after
midnight, probably two o'clock it started. We had, we went out gooks in the wire and a
couple of trip flares go off, then our- our illumination we sent up illumination.
Interviewer: Did the sappers get into your part of the base or they mostly on the other part of it?
They got real close to us, inside the other base, yeah. And they were- they were real close,
that from our, where the CP was set up, that Jeep was maybe 30, maybe 50 yards from
there. And there was a bunch of them behind that and the next day there was a lot of… and
there wasn't that Jeep, there wasn't a- an inch, half inch area where there wasn't holes all
over from shrapnel, from bullets, and there was quite a few dead ones behind there. And
�there was quite a few of them all over, but I remember just kind of piled up behind that
Jeep, and I thought, oh Jesus, but that's how close they got to the CP though. In that big
bunker where we were, myself, and that other guy, there's a couple of us in there, shit that
was, that was real close to that and… but.
(53.29)
Interviewer: Okay but by dawn basically the- the fighting is over, and they left and…?
Well just before dawn yeah.
Interviewer: Okay and so now did you stay at that place much longer? Did they move you out
after that?
Oh, they moved us out after that, we lost quite a few guys that Carly he got killed that night
and I was devastated and…
Interviewer: Did they take you out of the field for a little while after that?
Yeah, well couldn't go very far. To be truthful with you, I don't remember a whole heck of
a lot out of that after- right after that, because I had that concussion thing going on andand I don't really… there's a time period from that moment until I guess we were leaving
Khe Sanh area that I just kind of- there's a blank.
Interviewer: Okay.
(54.31)
And- and then- then we kind of started working our way I think south.
Interviewer: Yeah because the division was moving into the A Shau Valley which was south of
there.
Yeah, yeah.
�Interviewer: That and along the two, the sides of it and that kind of thing. And they're setting up,
there are fire bases being set up.
Yep.
Interviewer: And people are going down the middle of the valley and looking for things.
I remember going, landing at a, from a helicopter landing at a- a fire base. It was these
eight-inchers I had never been close to those eight-inchers. And those were big, shit, you
tried, those things go off oh my God, the ground shock and we were there for a couple of
days. And, but that almost seems like it was like a, seemed like a plateau or something.
Interviewer: Well eight-inches howitzers, now there were self-propelled you'd, weren't they? I
mean self-propelled guns, so they were on like tank chassis.
Oh no, these were regular gun.
(55.29)
Interviewer: Oh, they’re just- they’re just guns, okay.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Cause that, those because the self-propelled ones couldn't get up into the A Shau but
you could still bring, use a helicopter to bring ‘em.
Yeah that's what they, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah and we had to secure that for a while and that's my first recollection after Peanuts. I
don't remember a whole lot after Peanuts I don’t, I can't explain why, but it is what it is. I
remember landing at an air base or a fire base where those eight-inchers were. And it was
kind of out in the open, it wasn't no woods or nothing. And then one of the companies
walked into a, an ambush not- not long after, maybe a day or so after that. I- I couldn't tell
�you where, I know it was in the A Shau Valley because that's where we were going, but I
don't remember any of the names of anything.
Interviewer: Right.
I find, kinda don't remember a whole lot right directly after Peanuts.
(56.32)
Interviewer: Okay.
For some reason.
Interviewer: And so, you have a vague sense, okay you're in the A Shau you're doing some of
this stuff. Now for the most part were you staying on the fire bases or were you going out with
the guys on patrols?
I was kind of back and forth, you know mostly I was out with the guys a lot because thethe losses were- were piling up pretty bad and so, but I spent a lot of time out there with
‘em and as it was, I'd rather be out there than you know, with people that knew what the
hell was going on and with guys that didn’t. But I still had some friends, you know back in
the rear area too that stayed in contact with us. Especially when we'd rotate a little bit,
we'd go back, I remember a couple times they would have, time there where they would
have these, I would go back to a- a bigger rear area.
Interviewer: So, a stand-down basically?
(57.29)
Kinda yeah, you'd pull perimeter guard around us, but it's a big base and, we were always
told that you could have two beverages a day. It could be two beers, two pops, or a beer and
a pop, but we couldn't get it out there, so they saved it for and then our sarge… our CO,
when we went back to that somehow they always had these dehydrated steaks and we had a
�big party. And the other company before they left, we would go back, and we’d have at
least one night where we could just, you know we had those, it was like a big picnic party.
Steaks and just as much beer or pop or whatever you wanted to drink, as you could drink.
And these big ole’ garbage cans with ice in it, that all this rice- ice had rice, I don't know
where the hell they got the ice from, but I remember those. There was a couple times we
did that, that was- that was fun.
(58.32)
Interviewer: Now how long did this sort of pattern go on, of your kind of in that A Shau? Did
you, that operation end at some point? Or did you go someplace else? Or get sick? Or something
happened…
Yeah.
Interviewer: But- but what- what changes that pattern?
I know, see that's what I- I’m not, I can't hardly think of that because from May until then
the next December, I guess it was just kind of so routine that I don't really remember, just
that we're in that A Shau Valley area and then, actually feel kind of like a dumbass for not
remembering a lot of that stuff, but it was so routine, I don’t, I just, I don't remember a lot
of it. And then I remember for one thing I was gone, I extended, and I wanted to get out of
the field completely.
Interviewer: Okay.
And so they say if you extend you can get your choice when you come back where you want
to do but I wanted to work back in the supply to S4 where I was because I still wanted to
help, support the guys so.
Interviewer: So, when did you decide to extend or?
�(59.47)
I'd say it was November or something like that.
Interviewer: Because you would have been due to rotate out in November if you got there the
November before.
I think it was then because I was home for Christmas for of ‘68 and I remember I was
home when I got orders that I made sergeant. They mailed that stuff to my home which I
was kind of shocked. And but then I left right- right after Christmas apparently. I know I
spent the New Year's Eve in Tacoma and that's where I went out from again.
Interviewer: Now you backtrack a little bit, do you remember anything about that trip home on
leave. I mean how they get you out there or if you saw any protesters in the airport or anything
like that?
Oh yeah- yeah well you know I left the field. I can't remember what date it was but
anyway… and flew back to, in the helicopter to An Khê and we got our stuff there that's
where we left all our.
Interviewer: Right.
Personal, that you couldn't take with right, so I got that and got some, got out of our
fatigues and then some tans a dress, not the greens but the…
Interviewer: Yeah.
(1:01.22)
Yeah khaki and then going to… I don’t know what time I came home I know the second
time Bien Hoa. I might have went back to Cam Ranh Bay and flew back out of there.
Interviewer: That’s quite possible.
�Yeah and then came in by Fort Ord California and there was protestors all over and I
didn't pay much attention to them, I didn’t give a shit.
Interviewers: Did you stay in your uniform or did you change clothes?
Yeah, I no, I stayed in my uniform.
Interviewer: And then what was it like to go home? You’ve been in the Vietnam for a year.
(1:02.02)
Yeah it was weird, it was weird. We, myself, I met a guy in California he was going to
somewhere. I was going, I had to go through Chicago and then catch a flight. And we were
in the airport together. He had, he was 21 and so he bought a bottle you know, and we were
sipping it on the plane even and from Fort Ord. I- I really don't didn't pay much attention
to those guys, the protestors and stuff. And I wasn't gonna get out of my uniform. I know
some guys. Second time I did but anyways. We got to Chicago and we both missed our
flight, he was going onto, I don't know.
Interviewer: Somewhere else.
I don't remember yeah and we both miss our flight, so we had to spend a night in the
Chicago Airport. Didn't have a whole lot of money, well I had a lot, but it wasn’t you know
it’s; I can't remember if it was…
Interviewer: Did you have military script or what? Normally they would change that for you
when you leave.
(1:03.04)
Yeah because I, what I did is I saved all my money when I was in Vietnam, I wanted to buy
a car when I got home. And so, but anyways we were Chicago I don't remember, and we
had some money, but I didn't want to spend it for a hotel.
�Interviewer: Right.
Shit, I think the flight was like six/ seven o'clock in the morning. So, we were just sitting
there and there was a bar in the- in the airport, so well let's go. I says, “I won't be able to
get served but you never know.” So, we go in there and they served me, I couldn't believe it
I was- I was still 18. And but then we were sitting there and we got something to eat, a
hamburger and a couple of beers we were drinking and we go to pay and they were closing
up and now we're just kind of killing thing and we go to pay, say, “oh no it was all paid
for.” I said, “what do you mean?” Says a guy paid for it, he lost a nephew in Vietnam. And,
I'm sorry.
Interviewer: That's okay, but it sort of- it sort of balances the protester thing out.
(1:04.24)
Yeah.
Interviewer: There were people who still appreciated what you were doing.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay and then when- when you got home, was it hard to connect with people?
Yeah, I didn't really see a lot of the guys I used to hang around with much. I kind of had a,
my mind set that I wanted to get a car. I had, back then you could buy cars pretty good,
pretty cheap. So, I bought a, it was this 1967 Firebird 400, faster than a streaky shot and I
paid, I had 27 hundred for, saved up cause I didn’t, there's no place to really spend the
money. I did go on R&R but spent a couple hundred bucks. That was another thing in
Bangkok, 18-year-old kid in Bangkok.
Interviewer: Okay.
�But so- so, and my brother had to cosign for $300 for it and he did. And so, I- I drove that
for 20-some, 30 days whatever my leave was. And had no fear, that was in the days where
you could go downtown and you just up and down the circuit, you know back and forth.
(1:05.43)
Interviewer: Did you get any tickets?
Uh no I never got any tickets but…
Interviewer: Because a car like that would kind of invite them.
Yeah, I never got caught I guess is what it was. I remember racing the Corvette going down
Plainfield Avenue from downtown, and are you familiar with the city? You know where
Colebrook is? Where they…
Interviewer: Yeah.
There's a little curve there that goes up on Plainfield and I don't know if it was stupidity or
just really fear didn't, you know lived through Vietnam, I mean I'm not gonna die here, but
goal in mind, we were going over 100 miles an hour racing down there and I thought well
my brother, my younger brother was with me I said, “well Nick you better fasten that up.”
He says, “I ain't gonna stop,” and see whoever would stop would probably, you know lose
the race, but he slowed down, the Corvette slowed down and I kept going. My brother was
so pissed at me, you know so. But yeah, I don't know it was kind of weird I just didn't have
any fear.
Interviewer: Okay.
(1:06.50)
Yeah.
�Interviewer: Now when that leave comes to an end what’s it like going back out to Vietnam
again?
It was hard, it was difficult, but I felt kind of good cause I had some sergeant stripes that I
got pinned on there. And- and it was- it was a little bit different in a way that I got out to
Tacoma and I kinda farted around there, I wanted to see the sights. There’s not much to
see cause it's always raining like, at least when I was there. But not really AWOL I guess; I
missed a flight leavin’ and so stayed another night. Got pretty drunk with another guy I
met there, he was heading back too and so we just kinda thought, well we're, we've done
this before. We can take an extra day or two and so I got back kind of late, took the next
day, we got a flight out and, but it was- it was kind of hard. Flew back into Cam Ranh Bay
again and of course I had orders, so I didn't have to go all through that. Next day I guess,
spent the night there and then flew up to, actually didn't fly to An Khê at all, went right to
Tây Ninh.
(1:08.11)
Interviewer: Okay now for people who don't know anything, you had been, An Khê is- is kind of
in- in the middle of the country essentially, Quang Tri and all of that was up north.
Way up north.
Interviewer: Now where is Tây Ninh?
As far as I can remember, it's over along, the Cam- Cam- Cambodia border.
Interviewer: It's kind of west of Saigon.
Yeah- yeah west of Saigon, I don't know it was- it was about, lower part of…
Interviewer: Yeah.
…of Vietnam.
�Interviewer: Yeah, third tour, three tour was the general area that Saigon traveled in.
Yeah, yeah and we worked out of there for quite and- and mostly though I- I did get what I
was supposed to do. They did try to send me out there because as soon as I go back, they
said, “we really need you out there, Tommy,” and I says, “well I'm not gonna do it.” And so
things have changed quite a bit and but I ended up going back and forth a little bit and
then I kinda, I was really kind of rebellious about it too and it kinda pissed me off because I
didn't want to go out to the field again. And but they needed me, and I- and I still didn't
want to go, because most of the guys were gone, you know a lot of guys got killed again,
even in the short period that I was gone and then in deros or…
(1:09.31)
Interviewer: Yeah, like rotate home.
Yeah, rotate home and so there wasn't a whole lot of guys out there, but I still wanted to do
it. And the old CO was still there, he had a couple months to do yet, and he was the one
that really wanted me out there and so he got kind of pissed at me. But you know, what are
you gonna do? So, then they tried to make me go out and- and I then I- I am started
bitching about it and I filed some papers and I don't remember exactly what it was to get
out of, to go home period because you didn't stand by your contract with me and this and
that. And that was long as it was it took forever to get out of there. So, but I- I- I stayed
until May, I- I stayed my whole second tour.
Interviewer: Now did you spend most of your time on fire bases then?
(1:10.24)
Yeah it was a fire base in Tây Ninh. It was pretty good-sized firebase.
Interviewer: Was the division headquarters there or?
�I want… I'm not positive if it was there it could have been at Bien Hoa, I don't know.
Interviewer: You might have had a rear area in Bien Hoa anyway, but.
Yeah that was a, Bien Hoa was a big area, or base. And I remember went to an R&R
myself and another guy and we came back and we didn't want to go to our company yet, so
we were kind of just driving around Bien Hoa. We flew back into Bien Hoa and just kind of
going around and got one of the NCO clubs there and stuff. And it came out and there was
a Jeep sitting there, nobody around. So, the other guy said, “let's take that Jeep.” So, we
just, we were bar hoppin’ in Bien Hoa. Drunker than shit and there was a- a Filipino base
there and we stopped by that. There was a bar we came out and they- they say, “you guys
want to sell that Jeep?” “What?” And anyways that's a long story too and but we started…
Interviewer: Well did you sell the Jeep?
(1:11.39)
No, we- we tried to, and we wanted to we, well I- well I don't know I- I guess I shouldn't
even say that but we ended up trading that is what we ended up doing. And they gave us a
ride back to our base for a bunch of beer; San Miguel beer. We got two pallets of San
Miguel beer for that Jeep. And we were AWOL coming back so the CO thought, “well I got
you now” and say, “yeah but what do you want us to do with all this beer?” “What beer?”
“There's a, the Filipinos they brought a deuce and a half full of two pallets of beer. Well
right here we got this for the company. “Where the hell?” “I don't know sir, we just found
it,” you know it's- it’s here for the company. And so, nothing happened, they wanted, they
were gonna give us Article 15 for being late. And earlier in my tour when we were up at
Wonder Beach, you get a day off now and then and what they would do is they take a
couple guys out on a Navy ship when one of those big amphibious things come in. They
�drop, and three or four guys could go out and spend a day on a Navy ship. I did that one
time and that was fun, I mean you’re talking about good food the Navy had, holy crap. And
then another time me and another guy fell asleep on our air mattresses on a surfin’, we
were body surfing and we had these air mattresses. I fell asleep and I got sunburned
terrible- terrible and I get an Article 15 for that; destroying government property.
Interviewer: There you go.
(1:13.16)
I thought holy crap because I couldn't go out to the field for a couple days ‘till the blisters
and stuff went down.
Interviewer: Alright so in those last month's when you're back there, I mean what were you
actually doing in terms of duty?
In- in Tây Ninh?
Interviewer: Yeah.
I was loading helicopters and stuff like that. Talking to their radio operator, they would
call me and communicate there. Did all the companies not just the company I was in.
Interviewer: Right.
And I just kind of, you know because I was a sergeant then and I was just making stuff
happen, you know getting, making sure they got their, everything that they needed and
stuff and- and a lot of times too, S, guys that got wounded or something would come back
and they couldn't go out in the field for a couple, for a while whatever it was, they would
work in S4 too. So, we are all kind of, you know making sure those guys but mostly their
company was getting, you know whatever they could. And, but I was doing it for, you know
all four companies.
�Interviewer: Okay.
(1:14.26)
And I, I think at that time somewhere in- in there, they you know there was another base
go back before we went to Tây Ninh, or I went to in country R&R. Now I can't remember
the base, maybe it was a pretty good-sized base. I went to in country R&R.
Interviewer: Was it along the coast somewhere or was it inland?
No, it was inland. The in country R&R was on a coast yes, it was at Vung Tau.
Interviewer: Yep
Or something like that, but I can't remember where the base camp was. It might have been
somewhere like you were saying that it was somewhere in the A Shau Valley area, but I- I
don’t…
Interviewer: Well it wouldn’t be in, you wouldn’t- you wouldn't do R&R in the A Shau I mean.
No- no but I went from there to the R&R thing and then came back to that. It was a pretty
good sized base, they had a deuce and a halfs, in fact that's first time I ever shot a 50
caliber, they had a quad was it quad or…?
Interviewer: Well they had quads and they had twins.
Twins- twins that's what I shot was a twin [twin .50 caliber machine gun]. I always wanted
to shoot one of them things and- and one night they had on these back bases they had like a
mad minute so everybody that did have their weapons could go out and test them and stuff.
And I traded something, I think it was a belt buckle, North Vietnamese belt buckle, to this
I don't know if it was the Navy or Seabee that had the twin 50s but they had that set up
there and I wanted to shoot that so I tried and hey he let me shoot it. So, I shot the shit
outta that, that was fun, louder than hell.
�(1:16.10)
Interviewer: Alright, now you'd mentioned somewhere along that you'd gotten malaria.
Yeah.
Interviewer: What point did you come down with that? How far into your tour?
It was there… that's one of the, between Quang Tri…
Interviewer: So, it was before you went home?
Yeah- yeah it was.
Interviewer: So, before the leave, yeah?
I'm trying to think now, because that might have been before we went to… it was, before
we went up to Peanuts. It was between Wonder Beach and be, and- and when that Pegasus
thing started. Somewhere in there, I'm not sure, I don't know the dates.
Interviewer: Okay, did you have to go to a hospital for that?
Yeah they sent me down to a hospital and I had, they put me in, packed me in ice and put
me a helicopter and went straight up for quite high, and brining my temperature down,
came down, a couple days, just let me back up so.
(1:17.18)
Interviewer: And would that recur afterward or did it?
They said that you could have it and they told me too when I got out of the service that
you're never gonna be able to give blood or anything because it's always there. I said,
“really,” but now I- I don't know if it is true or not, I've never tried it cause I don't want to
screw somebody else up.
Interviewer: Right, but in the meantime, you haven't had any reoccurrences of it since then?
No, no. I- I may have but it’s…
�Interviewer: If you had it bad, you’d know.
Yeah, oh yeah it was like kind of like the flu or something like that, yeah, but no I never
had any reoccurrence of that.
Interviewer: Okay now you're in the army and you're in Vietnam, it appeared when there was a
lot of stuff going on at home, you'd had the King assassination, Kennedy assassination, all the
rioting and stuff in ‘68. How much of that filtered over to Vietnam? Or did it affect the way
anybody behaved by the time you left?
(1:18.14)
No- no I- I don't remember a lot of that I- I really didn't pay that much attention to it. I
mean the only newspaper, well at one time my grandmother, she sent me a subscription to
the Grand Rapids Press. I told her, I admit one time in a letter I wrote home I told her that
I miss reading the Grand Rapids Press, so she got me a subscription. I- I just couldn't keep
up, I mean I’d get these bags of paper and they’d dump ‘em out, and they’re pissed-off
hauling these, Friar Jesus what are you crazy, so I had to call her and tell her to, but
everybody read the paper, Grand Rapids Press, the whole company and…
Interviewer: Yeah, something to read.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
But, no, I don't remember that. I know like Kennedy got assassinated and stuff but mostly
what, I was young too, I was 18, I didn't really give a crap about…
Interviewer: Well I mean did the, sort of the attitude or the conduct of the black soldiers change
at all over the course of time?
(1:19.15)
�Well I think more guys started smoking the ‘wacky tobacky’ and stuff like that. And I- I
think maybe in the rear areas I- I noticed it when we’d come back in the rear areas. I
noticed maybe there's a little, the blacks would hang here, or something like in… but I
don't, I never saw any of that out in the field or nothin’. I never, and even in the rear area.
Interviewer: It wasn't really creating any kind of larger problems that you were seeing?
Not that I saw no.
Interviewer: Okay, and then the- the drug use part that's another Vietnam stereotype I guess so
you saw some of it on the base camps.
Marijuana, not nothing else. I, in fact I tried it too when I would come back from the rear
area, I never smoked out there in the field, I was always too paranoid, cripe. Even back
when I was in rear area, I was like… but I don't know how that these guys would do it.
But- but I never saw any of that hard stuff, everybody's talking about that. I said, shit I
never, hell I never even heard of marijuana until I got over there. I didn't know what it
was, and I tried it one time and I says, “holy crap,” but I, you know, never.
(1:20.36)
Interviewer: Yeah, and then did you ever get much of a chance to go into areas that had a large
civilian population? Or were you usually kind of on bases and…
The only time I did that was like in country R&R when we were coming back from
somewhere, you know.
Interviewer: And did you see much when you're actually in the areas that you were operating,
were there civilians around? Or was it largely depopulated?
Depends on where we were pulling the patrol. Sometimes, we’d go through a little village.
It was pretty good-sized villages; I mean the kids would come running out trying to sell you
�a Coke and stuff like that. And, but, and sometimes there was, it had to pull some guard
around a, like a bridge I can't remember where the hell that bridge was but across the
river, this is down by Hué I think. And kids were coming around in there so there was, you
know population. And- and sometimes in a rear area they would hire some civilians to do,
fill sandbags and sometimes cook, and clean, and you know certain things but…
Interviewer: What sort of impression did you have of the Vietnamese people themselves at that
point?
I liked them; you know except for the- the bad ones.
Interviewer: Yeah, the ones trying to kill you.
(1:22.03)
Yeah, I- I enjoyed them, I, to this day I- I- I know some Vietnamese. Guy that flew an
airplane is Vietnamese officer. And I- I always, you know I didn't have any, you know
problems with it, you know unless they were trying to kill me, you know then took issue
with it.
Interviewer: And then while you were there did you have any Vietnamese interpreters or scouts
or things like that with you?
Yeah- yeah, they had them. If we got a prisoner or something like that, but most of the
time, we didn't have any, you know. Once in a while but we didn't have any up by Khe
Sanh at all. I don't remember any interpreters up there then, but when we were down like
in Wonder Beach area, there was a couple around. We would catch some guys and then
they would question them and beat the- beat the hell out of them, but you know, but I don't
really remember, you know too many, seeing too many interpreters at all.
�Interviewer: Okay, alright now when you think about the time that you spent in Vietnam, are
there other particular things that kind of stand out in your memory that you haven't brought into
the story yet?
(1:23.21)
Such as?
Interviewer: It can be, you know funny things, or unusual things, or things that just- just remind
you of Vietnam, or…
Well there's a lot of things that remind me of Vietnam. I think it's probably the… neatest
thing I- I remember is the camaraderie that we had. I mean you just lived with these guys;
I mean you were closer than close. Share canteens, and you’d share c-rations, you’d share,
I mean make these c-rations, put it in a, basically in a helmet and mix all kinds of shit in
there. And one guy, I went on R&R to Taiwan with him, Danny I can’t think of his last
name he's from Pomona, California. And once a month his mom would send him a- a small
case of Tabasco Sauce and some sardines, and he'd share ‘em and I remember it to this day
I still enjoy a- a- a can of sardines with some hot sauce on them.
(1:24.40)
Interviewer: Alright.
And sharing different, you know just cooking stuff and how do you, how you, just make do
with what you got. Making c-rations which terrible tastin’, to try to come up good with
stuff. Puttin’ some of the jelly that came in in certain things. Just, you know you get these
hot- heat tablets and or sometimes you take the C4 out of the claymores, little ball, and hot,
get some hot, you’d cook it right now. And I remember patrolling one time on the road,
pulling close security there were gone through checking for mines, truck- truck drivers
�there and you’d try to steal a- a fire extinguisher from the truck, and put a couple beers in
a sandbag and blow that, to cool the beer down and stuff. And, or trade them, they'd give
them to you, they didn’t give a crap. And I think if you're screwing around if you get in
kind of in trouble or something, someone says, “oh yeah, you’re gonna do, you know,
probably gonna get in trouble for that one.” I remember saying, “well what are they gonna
do? Send you to Vietnam?” You know, so.
Interviewer: Okay, now when you get to the end of the enlistment, now you're coming back. Do
you still have time left to serve after you get home?
I had 10 months to serve.
Interviewer: Okay and did you have orders of that assignment before you left or did they send
that to you after you got home?
I think I got that at California.
(1:26.16)
Interviewer: Okay, alright now talk about leaving Vietnam the second time.
Second time I was kind of bitter because you know you hear all that crap going on this and
that, you know, and I was only 19. And- and I come back with this guy, JT Holman and
that's when I- I did - I did change my clothes and to this day I regret, we had a taxi driver.
We taxied from I guess Fort Ord to I don't remember but going across the bridge and we
had the driver stop and I threw my medals over the… and I don't know why I did that, I
guess it was… I don't know why. And I regret it ever since and I still had that stuff here on
my shirt that was in my bag, but my ribbons, I guess. And I don't know why the hell I did
that and- and to this day that pisses me off that I even did it, that I let these assholes get in
my mind. And but exactly probably as soon as I let go of ‘em I regretted it and to this day
�I- I wish I had not done that. But then I- I- I think I got my orders there and then I came
home and then I got married. No, I didn't get married then, I came home I was, I went to
Fort Eustis and which my wife now. We hung out, and I took a weekend pass and went
home and got married and she came back down to Virginia with me. And stayed there for a
while, lived off base which was pretty cool. Lived next door to a guy, and we lived in a
trailer park. They guy was in the Navy, he was on a nuclear submarine, he was six months
on, six months off. So, kind of worked out just before I got out, he got, he had to go for six
months, but he was pretty cool guy and we did a little- little bit of traveling around when
we were in Fort Eustis. And I kind of had pretty good duty, I, you know they just they
didn't want to F with me, you know. And- and cause and most of the guys that were in that
thing that I was in, that 5O8th, I was a, oh they made me a, what was it… CBRNCO.
Interviewer: And what does that mean?
(1:28.56)
Chemical, biological, and radiological.
Interviewer: Okay.
NCO, I says “well what do I gotta do now?” “Well you gotta go take this class.” And I says,
“okay,” you know ten months I gotta do, play the game. So, I went took this class and I say,
“okay now your company, you're the head CBRNCO.” I said, “so what do I do?” He says,
“well you gotta check all the gas masks, you gotta make some guys go through the
chamber.” I said, “go through the gas chamber now?” I said, “I'm not going in that damn
thing, I did that in basic.” “Well you gotta.” I said “okay, I got a good gas mask then,” and
had to do that whole thing and I felt so bad. And there's this black guy, stuttered like crazy
as an…in that outfit there. And whenever he got excited he couldn't- he couldn't, you
�couldn't understand nothing he said, and you're supposed to say your name, rank, and
serial number and he was in there and, you know I said, “okay guys take your stuff off.”
And he started stuttering and stuttering and stuttering and he couldn't get it out. And I
said, “get your ass out of here,” and…
Interviewer: So how did that drill work anyway? What was, how does that play out? You have a
bunch of recruits you bring ‘em into a room someplace, then what?
(1:30.13)
Yeah, they- they pop a bunch of CS in that room, it's not very big. I'd say maybe twelve by
twelve or something, it's not a very big room. But it's, like CS I don't know if you ever had
it, that stuff burn the shit out if you. If you got any sweat on you, it burns your cheeks and
the whole thing and you're supposed to, I guess go through that thing, and…
Interviewer: Now as the one who was running it do you get to keep your gas mask on?
Oh yeah- yeah, I kept that, I wouldn't do it otherwise because that's, it's hard to breathe, it
burns your lungs. It burns your lungs, it's- it’s not- it's not pleasant but yeah, they say you
gotta do it, so you know what you're doing to other people.
Interviewer: Alright, now would you go in and up to Washington or because far east, is it
Petersburg or Williamsburg or?
By Newport.
Interviewer: Newport, by Newport okay that area, okay so that's- that’s a pretty big kind of base
area.
Yeah.
Interviewer: For the Navy in particular. Alright and was that kind of a supply thing primarily or?
I don’t know.
�Interviewer: Okay.
(1:31.25)
All I know is the trucking company we had to make sure the trucks ran and…
Interviewer: Right.
But when I first got there, what was kind of cool is a- a bunch of us were in this room, we,
there was a big barracks there a lot of the guys, but all those sergeants and stuff. We had,
we're in a, we had rooms, our own room, well with another guy. And we watched the- the
moon, landing on the moon and Armstrong’s speech and everything and that was pretty
cool, I remember that, where, so where were you on this day? I remember right where I
was. And- and we- we did some travel, one of the guys had a girlfriend in, up by Virginia
Beach and we’d go up there now and then and his mom, we'd go out crabbin’, getting’
crabs. And she'd boil it, had big crab dinners, that was fun. Boil it in beer and stuff, it was
good.
Interviewer: Now did the military make any effort to encourage you to re up or?
Oh yeah, yeah, they did, yeah.
(1:32.32)
Interviewer: What would they offer you?
Another stripe, that was the big thing. And I said, “well I got three, I don't really need
another one.” And- and then I asked them, I said, “can you guarantee me?” I actually
considered it, but I asked, “can you guarantee me I won't go to Vietnam again?” And they
said, “we can’t do that,” so I said, “nope, I'm not gonna do it then.” If I, if they would have
guaranteed me that I didn't have to go there, “so well we- we, you won't have to go for a
�couple years.” But shit the year- war is already ten years old, I didn’t know how long it's
gonna last and so I said, “nah.”
Interviewer: Okay so when do you actually get your discharge then?
May 16th, 15th or 16th it’s the day before the, yeah May 16th, I went in on May 17th and got
out on May 16th and…
Interviewer: It’s 1970.
Yup.
Interviewer: And then what do you do after you're out?
(1:33.30)
Well I had a lot of issues; I was married, and I didn't know what the heck I was gonna do
and I drank a lot. And for a long, long time I drank and drank and drank and you know,
tried to make shit right but it- it don’t right. And then- and then I found God and it's kind
of like a- a burden lifted off my shoulders and that was probably 15 years after I got out
but I had a good jobs and I went to school and I didn't finish school, I really never finished
a lot of, much of anything. Even I became a die maker and I just couldn't stay in- in a shop.
I had, in 30 years, 20-some years I was at 14 different shops; I just, I don't know what the
hell is wrong, I you know. But I enjoyed it, and to this day I miss not working on it, but you
know and just some things that just piss me off and I just move on.
Interviewer: So, what did you wind up doing then after that, once you sorted things out?
I stayed in- I stayed oh I went to school for a while and then I owned a pizza place for
about nine years enjoyed it, couldn't make no money and family was getting bigger. And so
then I- I got a job in tool and die and I was probably about 30 I guess, 35 something like
that and I stayed in that and you know I made a decent living and, but you know I had
�trouble I just, I don't know, I just, I- I can't explain why but I just went from job to job but
I always got a job in the tool and die trade. And I enjoyed it, always enjoyed working with
my hands. Now I'm retired, still kind of dabbling in wood and I like remodeling and stuff,
so…
(1:35.41)
Interviewer: Now to look back at the time that you spent in the service, I mean how do you think
that affected you positively or negatively?
I think it's positive, I think I had no direction before I went in. There was a lot of bad
things that happened, but there was in the same token there was more good things that
happened, I feel in my case anyway. And I- I think it really saved me I know a lot of the
guys I used to hang around with, they got into drugs, one or two overdosed. You know I so,
well you know, I just, I- I- I encourage anybody, I think it should be mandatory everybody
spent two years in, least in the service or Peace Corps to get away before you go to college,
right after, boom, do it you'll- you’ll learn. I think our country would be better off now,
you'd be able to, you'd learn how to get along with other people; any color purple, pink,
black, anything it's, you, it's what you should do for the country. But it was, I was happy I
did, I would do it again.
Interviewer: Alright, well we thank you very much for coming in and sharing a story today.
Thank you, I enjoyed it.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
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RHC-27_FriarT1802V
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Friar, Thomas (Interview transcript and video), 2015
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2015-07-02
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Tom Friar was born in December of 1948 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Friar attended Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and then AIT at Fort Dix, New Jersey, where he learned to become a truck driver. Friar was then deployed to Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam, in November of 1967 with the S4 Supply Company, 1st Battalion, 5th Regiment, First Cavalry Division at An Khê. He participated in the First Cavalry Air Assaults as well as Operation Pegasus. Returning to the United States in 1969-70, he noticed the increased general hostility towards the Armed Forces in Vietnam. He briefly served as a CBR NCO training recruits at Fort Eustis, Virginia, before leaving the service in May of 1970 and eventually became a tool and die maker.
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Friar, Thomas John
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
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eng
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/30c56dfa183531c1b659106f249e396e.mp4
7c565701a16da9d5a183d0992c4486f7
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a6edac1a2426c2d27622346bd41da38f.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Roger Faber
Interview Length: (2:34.18)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
James Smither: We’re talking today with Vietnam veteran, Roger Faber. The interviewer
is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay,
Roger, start us off with some background on yourself; and to begin with where and when
you were born?
Roger Faber: Okay, I was born in Grand Rapids in Butterworth Hospital, November 5, 1945
and…
JS: Now did your family actually live in Grand Rapids, or were you outside of it?
RF: No, my family lived on Black Hills, in the city-limits, on the southwest side. And they were,
I had a good upbringing. I had parents who loved me, they didn’t have a whole lot, but they took
care of us. We had shoes and clothes; we had patches in the jeans and so on. But we were given a
strong work ethic, it was very important, and also a high respect for authority quite literally.
Whether it was a teacher in school, or the policeman, or the next-door neighbor, they were in
charge, not- not us. And I was 11 years younger than my next sibling. They had a family, a sister
and two brothers, and then I was, came way behind, so I was kind of like the second family.
(1.49)
JS: Right, you were the baby.
RF: I had very nurturing parents and I’m thankful for that. I wish I had thanked them when I had
the chance yet but that happens.
JS: What were they doing for a living?
�RF: My dad was a truck driver and delivered coal, back then, this was you know in the 50s. And
my mother was stay at home, didn’t have a driver’s license. But one of my fondest memories is
when I came home from school, she sat down with a cup of coffee and I had a glass of milk and
some cookies, and we talked about my day. And then she said, “go change your clothes and go
out and play.” We didn’t have television, and so we played in the neighborhood. It was a good- a
good family, as were the rest of the neighbors. Very diverse, even somewhat racially integrated
back then. Black Hills was, it wasn’t a racial thing, it was because of the black walnut trees. But
it’s on the southwest side, kind of behind the Keeler Brass buildings on Godfrey. So, that’s
where I grew up.
JS: Okay, now did you finish high school?
(2.55)
RF: Oh yes. Yeah, I went to Christian school all the way. From Kindergarten through, I went to
Southwest Christian, through ninth grade at the time, and then to Grand Rapids Christian High
for three years. I graduated from there in January of 1964. They had half year classes, and you
went from one grade to the next in January. And so I got into that; I started out in September, but
when I was eight years old, I broke my leg pretty bad and I missed so much school, that I had to
go back a half a year, because I missed about half a year. I took that and that’s how I got in that
January class so to speak.
JS: Alright, and now what did you do after you graduated?
(3.37)
RF: My brother had a painting business with Langenfaber Decorators. And I started working for
him when I was sixteen, and I could drive and get to work. So, during high school, breaks and
�summertime, I painted for him. I did that after high school for, I graduated in January ’64 and I
did, I worked full time for him until March of ’65 when I went to Ferris.
JS: Okay, and then you went so… but at that point, was it Ferris State College?
RF: Yes, yeah.
JS: Alright and what were you studying there?
RF: Architecture. They had a program for architecture draftsmen. And I had had mechanical
drafting in high school which I really enjoyed, but I didn’t want to draw threads on a bolt. I
thought, you know, and I always had a fascination, I, when I was way back in middle school, I
would buy magazines of house plans and study those and think, I can do that! I can do better!
And so, I had interest in that and I- I knew I enjoyed painting, I still do, but I knew I that
couldn’t do that for 50 years. My body wouldn’t take it. So, I thought, I better do something
different. So, I made a decision I would, I, Ferris had that program, so I thought, I’ll apply to
there, and if I get in, I’ll- I’ll try that. If I don’t, I will apply to the state police academy. Well, I
got in Ferris. And went through, it was an eighteen months continuous program. And went
through that and I got out of there in fine shape. I got a job in Madison, Wisconsin. Now this was
’65, ’66; I got done in August I guess of ’66. We were engaged for a year and I met my wife, of
course, three years before that, but we dated and then we got married in September of ’66. I had
this job in Madison, Wisconsin, but at that time, the draft was really on, cooking, in ’66. And
getting back to my upbringing, we had this strong respect for authority, so I was engrained with
the thought that don’t volunteer for the army, but if you’re drafted, you have to go, if you. Okay
so that was my mindset. And evidently, the schools at that time, I had a student deferment while
I was in school, and I can remember getting another deferment in the summer of ’66. But and I
thought, well I’m all set for another year, because that’s what they usually were worth. Well,
�evidently, the school had to notify your draft board that you’re no longer in school. So,
somewhere along that winter of ‘66/’67, I got a notice for a- a physical, I was supposed to show
up in Grand Rapids or go to Detroit. Well, I was living in Madison, so they arranged for me to go
to, take a bus and go to Milwaukee and have a physical, which I did. That went well. It wasn’t a
problem; I didn’t expect it would be. Although I, one interesting story there in Madison, when
we got on the bus, the one fella had a prosthesis, a wooden leg. I’m thinking, man oh livin’ this,
he should get deferred right here at the bus station, but he had to go. And then when we got to
Milwaukee, they made him take his leg off before he got weighed. And then they told him to go
sit down. But that was just kind of a humorous, that this is the way it goes, but so, I went through
that and went back to work. And yeah in a few months, I got a notice for a draft that I had to go
to, in May to a Grand Rapids bus station and I’d get inducted.
(7.31)
JS: Right, to back up a little bit, when you went for the physical, did you notice anybody
trying to scam the system or were you aware of anything like that?
RF: Well, there was talk about it you know, guys would eat soap or something to raise, I don’t
know if any of that stuff worked. It, I suppose people tried to do things to flunk the physical, I
did not. I again had this mentality you go if you’re physically fit, you’re gonna go. So, I didn’t,
there wasn’t anything wrong, I guess.
JS: But you didn’t really notice anybody doing anything like that?
RF: No, no I didn’t.
JS: Okay, now was the physical itself reasonably serious, or was it besides from the wooden
leg thing, pretty cursory?
�RF: It, well I don’t remember it being serious. We were all young, so we were healthy, generally.
I think they were looking for things that would indicate that somebody was trying to get out of it,
somehow. Whether they played like they were deaf, or because there would be a hearing test,
and an eye test, I suppose, and blood pressure. It wasn’t you know, it wasn’t difficult, but I
suppose they were looking for certain things and people that kept complaining. You know, they
probably, you know they weren’t dumb. They could pick the- pick the guys out.
(8.56)
JS: Now, Madison’s also a college town.
RF: Yeah.
JS: At the time you actually went in, I mean did you notice any kind of anti-war stuff going
on or were you aware of any of that?
RF: I don’t think so, not then yet. I don’t, I think that came probably more in ’67. I wasn’t, I
don’t remember. It’s a college town, and it’s a rather liberal town in their thinking, progressive
maybe, but I can’t recall any demonstrations. There may have been some, but I just ignored it.
JS: Yeah, and you weren’t in school yourself anyways.
RF: No, no.
JS: So, you had other things to do. Okay, and how much did you know about Vietnam at
that point?
RF: Nothing. Nothing. Probably couldn’t find it on a map. Other than being in the news, you
know, you knew the word, but I didn’t know anything about the politics of it. I can’t recall, I
learned most of that later.
(9.54)
�JS: Right, okay, so we get now, so it’s May of ’67 then you have to go and report now and
be sent off for basic training. Where do you go for basic training?
RF: I went from, well actually inducted in at Fort Wayne in Detroit, in that center. And that was
kind of comical because we were supposed to have another physical. Well that physical was
interesting, they said, “have you been to see a doctor since your last physical?” No, I hadn’t, so
you passed. It was, that was the physical.
JS: Right.
And I had this recollection that the Marines would pick out people they wanted on some days
and not other days. Well, the day I was going through, they weren’t picking anybody out, so I
ended being sworn into the army. Got my service- service number: US 54967085; something you
never forget. And they told us to memorize that on the train, no, we took a bus from Detroit to
Fort Knox, Kentucky near Louisville. And I remember that was the weekend of the Kentucky
Derby because there was all kinds of activity and hype and so on. But so, I went to Fort Knox for
basic training.
(11:15)
JS: Okay, what kind of reception do you get at Fort Knox?
RF: Well, you just, you know you get a haircut, and they throw all these clothes at you, and a
box to put your civilian clothes in, and ship, they got shipped home. We were just, there were a
lot of guys who were in the National Guard. And I don’t know, there’s a story about that too. Do
you want to hear that?
JS: Yeah.
RF: When I was working in Madison, Wisconsin in a, in as an architectural draftsman for Flad
and Associates, our spec writer was a major, we called him Sarge but he was a major in the
�National Guard, and he could arrange to get us into the National Guard. But again, I opted not to
do that, and that was a conscious decision that my wife Judy and I made. But when I- when I got
to Fort Know for basic training, there were a lot of the guys in my company who were National
Guard people there for basic training, so it was the same for everybody. The drill sergeants, there
was, I don’t remember any physical abuse at all. Again, I was in pretty good physical shape, I
could do what they asked me to do. They get kind of pushy you know and ask you to do silly
things, but hey, that’s part of the thing, part of basic training, I guess.
(12.44)
JS: Alright, I mean had you kind of expect, I mean where you expected to be shouted at
and that kind of thing?
RF: Oh yeah. I kind of, I think I, my brother had, my older brother of the two brothers had been
in the army during the Korean War, and so he probably clued me in a little bit. Not too much
but…
JS: Now did the instructors treat the guardsmen any differently from everybody else?
RF: Not generally, but one guy did. He was also an attorney, and so he got some preferential
treatment. Supposedly he had hemorrhoids and he couldn’t march, and this and that so he kind of
got put off to the side. They didn’t treat us differently other than that, maybe. I do remember one
other time, when we were just, on a Saturday, we were all put in formation and we had to march
over to some building and we gave blood. This was not optional; it was just you did that. One
fella was Jewish, and he objected to giving blood on the Sabbath. So, he was excused, but had to
go back in on Sunday. And one of those things that happen in life that you know, that you just
kinda don’t forget. They accommodated him.
(13.58)
�JS: Okay, alright so what did the actual basic training consist of? What were they making
you do every day?
RF: Mostly physical, PT, a lot of PT! That’s what you remember the most. You know, they told
you when to get up, they told you when to shave, they told you… You’d have to think a whole
lot. Everything was planned for you. We did a lot of running. Just obviously PT, they got us in
shape. It, I don’t think basic training was terribly vigorous. Obviously, they told you how tohow to march, how to, where to make turns, and when to about-face, and present arms and order
arms, and all that kind of stuff. How to salute properly. About revelry and about military
courtesy and general orders on behavior. Classroom works like on first aid. We had these sticks
with like a pillow on each end and we had to beat each other with it. Kind of silly, but I guess
there was a reason for that too.
(15.14)
JS: Alright now did they give you; how did they figure out what to do with you coming out
of basic training?
RF: Oh, that was interesting, during basic training, well I guess when we got there, a day or two,
we took written test. And I tried hard on the test to do my best, and I thought cause that’s a good
thing to do. You do your best. And maybe one day I’ll go to the Army Corps of Engineers with
my background, so I tried hard. And during basic training, they would call different guys out and
talk to us about, you qualified to go be a radio repairman, or a medic, or I don’t know, just it’s a
whole series of things. A warrant officer were specialized officers in particular field. But of
course, they were looking for chopper pilots. I knew that was not a good idea. And I kept saying
no, cause I probably even said, “look, I’m here for two years and I’m gonna go home.” So, you
got two years, not three. And then one time they called out just two of us and said, “you scored
�pretty well on your test and we can arrange to have your Congressman.” Who at that time was
Jerry Ford for Grand Rapids or Kent County. “We can have, we can arrange to have your
Congressmen an appointment to West Point for you.” “Oh, and how long is that?” “Well, you’ll
be there for four years and then a five-year commitment following.” “No, no, like I said before,
two years, then I’m done.” And so, I, my opinion what happened, is in my chart, or in my file, it
was written down as “noncompliant;” this guy just says no to everything. I mean he does what
he’s told but he’s not going to sign up. And so, at the end of basic training, a day or two before
the end, we got orders, and my orders were for Fort Polk for 11-Bravo, 11-B. I don’t know what
that is. So, I go to the orderly room and say, “what’s this?” Oh, the guy says, “that’s small arms
infantry.” Whoa, so, I of course wrote home or called home; this is where I’m going, Fort Polk
small arms infantry. Well, my wife’s grandma, who had for years written back and forth to Jerry
Ford, just communicating, and so on and so forth. So, she writes Jerry Ford and says she didn’t
think her grandson should be in the infantry. And he probably checked, and he, or he knew, and
anyway she got a letter back, I wish I had that letter. He wrote back and said, “you’re right, your
grandson probably shouldn’t have to be in the infantry, but if a person is drafted, the army can
assign them to any job they qualify for. Now, your grandson qualified for a lot of things, but one
of them is the infantry.” So, that’s how I got that. I attribute it to the fact that I was so stubborn.
I, later I oh, OCS with another thing they offered. And piolet and all this stuff. Well OCS
(Officer Candidate School,) I was told, or believed at the time, that you could sign up for OCS,
go to that school, and then while you’re waiting for your class to start, you could say, “eh I think
I changed my mind.” And then you could probably fall between the cracks, and they would say,
“well, Faber, what can you do?” “I’m an architectural draftsman.” “Well, why don’t you go see
�this Army Corps of Engineers building?” Well, I didn’t- I didn’t know that at the time, or I didn’t
think that at the time, so I said no to OCS along with everything else.
(19.10)
JS: Well, I have interviewed somebody who tried that particular tactic and eventually
wound up in the infantry anyway. Actually, went through most of it before he wound up
there. But yeah, they were kind of onto- onto that one.
RF: Oh, well, they probably should have been. So, I, that’s-that’s but… I- I think the reason I
kept saying no, was that they figured, “this guy, we got a job for him, and we’ll give it to him.”
Right or wrong, that’s what happened.
JS: Well, the certainly needed foot soldiers.
RF: That’s right! There was, that was the biggest need they had.
JS: Okay, so now what was Fort Polk like?
RF: Oh boy! It was hotter. Because now, I went in in May, so basic is two months. So, June,
July, middle of July I take, get on a train for Fort Polk. I think we ended up in New Orleans or
something because there was this Dixieland Band there at the train station and then a bus to Fort
Polk. And this- this is the middle of July; it’s hot. And they were remodeling the barracks, so we
lived in tents, or slept in tents. That was okay, the sides were rolled up, and you’re so tired you
sleep. First time I ever saw an armadillo on the bus ride into Fort Polk. Never, didn’t even know
what the thing was at first. And of course, they told us about snakes that you had to watch out
for. At that time, at Fort Polk, they had a special area called Tiger Ridge, and that’s where we
had AIT, or advanced infantry training on this Tiger Ridge and it was intense. It wasn’t
undoable, but it was intense. The PT got more intense. The training got more intense. My two
worst days, I think, in basic and AIT were pulling KP. To me, this made no sense. Get up at 4
�o’clock and just at the mercy of some mess sergeant who he, this was his- his time to shine you
know. He could tell us what to do and, miserable days. I didn’t- I didn’t like the other days, but
they weren’t as bad as KP, and for me.
(21.33)
JS: Alright, now were they consciously gearing your training for Vietnam?
RF: Oh yes! Clearly, clearly! They talked about it all the time. And most of the drill sergeants
and I think were, yeah, they talked about it, they were vets from Vietnam, they had been there.
And so that was all the time, it was clearly we’re training you to go to Vietnam. No question
about it. It just oozed from them that this is where you guys are going. Although, during that
summer of ’67 occurred the war in Israel. For and so, then there was this big thing; well maybe
you guys are gonna go to Israel, you know they got this war, seven days, I think. Seven-day war?
JS: Yeah, six, six-day war.
(22.23)
RF: And of course, so, that died down and back to Vietnam you guys are going. It was- it was
physically more strenuous, and I suppose mentally too, they were trying to toughen you up both
ways. We had lessons on how to react in an ambush. I don’t think it ever worked that way, but
we were told and trained that if you get ambushed, you don’t hit the ground, you turn into the
direction of fire and you charge it. Well we didn’t do that in reality, but that was a training, and I
suppose there would be an element of surprise if all these GIs did that. But it worked okay when
everybody was firing blanks, but in the real world, they weren’t blanks anymore, so things were
a little different. You had to know more about where this was coming from than just say, “well I
think it’s coming from over there, that’s the way I’m going.” Not, it didn’t work that way. But it
was, I- I think they treated us a little bit better, but again, I had this, my attitude was a bit of an
�issue. I did what I was asked to do, but one time…we would run from one class or range to
another one, again, I understand why, but always we would have to wait before the next class
would start, for the stragglers. One day, I don’t know what was in me, but I decided that hey if
they’re gonna wait, I’m gonna walk. So, I walked from one to another. Of course, I took a lot,
quite a bit of abuse from the drill sergeants because this was not normal for me. But I said, “look,
they’re gonna wait for me to get there, I know it, we’re gonna wait.” Probably didn’t help either.
JS: Yeah.
(24.19)
RF: But you know, you, I had gotten to a point where I just felt, this, I’m tired of this. Run back
and forth. You know just, come on, give us something that, make it more meaningful!
JS: Okay, now were you a little older than most of the guys you were training with?
RF: Yeah, I guess so. I- I was 21. But yeah, I was older than those that were enlisted out of high
school, or something, so I was a little bit older. And I- I had, I was married, and I had been to
college. And I had a career that I wanted to pursue. I had my faith and I just, I didn’t want to
be… I- I chaffed at the idea of being treated so, in such a way.
JS: Yeah, because part of it is sort of programming people and when you’re younger,
you’re easier to program.
(25.08)
RF: Oh yes, but I will say, the army is very good at training people to do what- what they want
them to do. There’s no question about that because they did it to me and they did it to all of us.
And for most of us it was effective down the line, for some. And nobody knows how they will
react in a fire fight until you’re in one. And sometimes guys just froze, they just, they couldn’t
function. And you don’t know that, training doesn’t- doesn’t do that. Yeah, they, it was intense. I
�got to say too when I went in the service, when I got drafted, I weighed 150 pounds. When I got
out of AIT, I weighed 175, and that was not fat, you know I was just muscle and shape. So, they
did that. On the other hand, when I came back from Vietnam, I weighed 150 pounds again.
JS: Right, now while you were in basic and then AIT, did you ever get to go off the base?
(26.15)
RF: I did once in basic training. We were allowed one, three-day pass. And at that time, my
brother, Warren, who had been in Korea, and his wife, Verna, brought my wife Judy down and I
had this- this weekend pass, and we stayed in Louisville. So, I got off. And AIT, I don’t
remember anything like, I don’t remember getting off base, whether it was offered or if I had
been offered, I would’ve done it. But I think I was on the base. I never left this ‘Tiger Ridges’ as
they called it.
JS: Okay, alright so is AIT another eight weeks?
RF: Yes.
JS: Okay and then what happens at the end of that?
RF: I get a 30-day leave. You get orders, and my orders were to report to Fort Lewis,
Washington on a specific day in October. And I finished up in September, so from middle of
July, middle of August, middle of September, I got a 30-day leave before you go overseas. And
so, first time I’d ever been on a plane. I took a plane from Fort Polk to the Dallas Fort Worth
airport, what do they call it? Love Airport, maybe? Whatever it is. And from there I took a flight
from there to Chicago. Never been on a plane before, so that was a new experience.
JS: Okay.
RF: Turns out I’d be on a plane a lot.
JS: Yeah.
�RF: And my wife met me in O’Hare Field. I kid you not! I was walking through the airport, I had
to buy a ticket to get to Grand Rapids and my wife and I met right at a corner in O’Hare Airport!
It was incredible! She went, she had flown down to meet me. So, that was really, really, really
nice! So, I had a 30-day leave and that was good. As you can imagine, we could spend time with
family and…
(28.17)
JS: Yeah, but you know you’re going to Vietnam?
RF: Oh yeah, yeah that’s in the back of your mind. But also, I, there’s this faint hope that
something will go different at Fort Lewis. You know you always got, I- I had this illusion that
something will turn out, something will work out. And but, I should have known better. But it
was a nice- nice 30-day leave. This was, everybody got that before they went overseas. And all I
had to do was get from Grand Rapids then to Fort Lewis. On you, and you got paid when you left
Fort Polk. Travel, mileage, from Fort Polk to Fort Lewis, whatever that mileage was, I don’t
remember the rate. But, so, you used that money to buy tickets.
JS: Right, okay so now you go out to Fort Lewis. How long do you stay there?
(29.12)
RF: Just a few days. And I remember this was October, and it was drizzling all the time. Now
you really didn’t want to be outside, but of course, you had to go to the mess hall, and I suppose
there was some paperwork and things they had to check. And of course, there was constantly,
Fort Lewis is right adjacent to McChord Airforce Base, and which was convenient. You know
we processed at Fort- at Fort Lewis. And I- I can just think, it was a few days. And then I of
course was told or given paper that we’re gonna get on a bus someday at a certain time and haul
you over to McCord Airforce Base.
�JS: Alright now when you fly to Vietnam, were you on a commercial plane or military?
RF: Yeah- yeah this was commercial, chartered. And they packed us in as much as they could. I
want to say they were 737s, but I know they had a center aisle that was just this wide and three
seats on each side of the aisle, and pack it in. We got food in a box or something to eat, which
was okay. It was a long flight. I can remember coming home better as far as time goes, but it’s
about 24 hours.
JS: Okay.
RF: We stopped in Hawaii. And we stopped on Wake Island in Guam to refuel, I guess. You
didn’t get off the plane, you just stayed on. Nobody wanted us around, in case we’d run away, I
guess.
JS: Yeah, alright so where did you land in Vietnam?
(30.52)
RF: Cam Ranh Bay.
JS: Okay.
RF: And that I wrote in my journal too. We’re approaching Vietnam, and it’s dark, it’s nighttime.
And I think, wait, we’re going to Vietnam. How do you do this in the dark? You know, they’re
probably giving me a gun and say, “show up in a year and we’ll take you home.” Literally! I was
afraid! And as we come closer and closer, there’s lights on all over. And I’m thinking this is
terrible! I wasn’t prepared for that. And of course, we landed. And there’s buses and lights on,
and herd you on the next bus and bring you to a barracks. And you can find a bunk and we’ll
wake you up in the morning to eat breakfast. I got, I woke up and I went outside; there were guys
waterskiing on the bay and I thought, boy this isn’t that bad! This is pretty nice! And little did I
know, I, this was only my first stop you know. But was only there a couple of days too in the in-
�processing center. They were, they moved you right on through. They had the, the skins were
greased man, they knew this operation!
JS: Okay now did you have orders to go to a specific unit or did you only get those after
you got to Vietnam?
RF: Got to Cam Ranh Bay and then you got orders to go, in my case, to the 1st Cav. I don’t
know if it included Bravo Company at that time, but it was to the 1st Cav. in An Khê.
JS: Okay. Alright, and how did they get you there?
RF: By plane.
(32.33)
JS: Is this now a military transport?
RF: Oh yeah, now we’re on a military plane. Like a C131, I think, I’m pretty sure, or 123. But
anyway, we flew from Cam Ranh Bay up to Da Nang, as I learned later what Da Nang was all
about, which was further north. And we, no processing there but that then we got on probably a
Caribou, which was a smaller plane, and from there we went to An Khê from Da Nang.
JS: Okay, what part of south Vietnam was An Khê in?
RF: I would say the Central Highlands, as I recall. It’s about half-way, approximately. And the
army base there was Radcliffe, Camp Radcliffe, but we always called it An Khê. It was a little
tiny village just outside of Radcliffe, Camp Radcliffe. We just called it “O-Business” An Khê.
(33.32)
JS: Right, now the base itself was pretty good size though, right?
RF: Oh yeah! That was a good size, I have a hard time judging it. But it was a good, yeah and all
wooden barracks. There was a hospital there, or an infirmary. Motor pool, fuel depot, I didn’t see
�much of that. Again, when you get to the airstrip, get on another bus or some vehicle and brought
us over to, in my case, to the, I guess to the First- First Battalion or Brigade I don’t know.
JS: You’ve got, I mean a division breaks down into Brigades, and the Brigades are made
up of Battalions, and Battalions have Companies in them. And you were in Bravo
Company, so B-Company, that’d be First Battalion normally.
RF: Fifth Cav.
JS: Yeah, Fifth Cavalry Regiment.
RF: Which would have been like a Brigade. You know, Fifth Brigade, 1st Cav. Division. So, I
was in Bravo Company, or B. And again, there’s some orientation that you do, they’re treating
you much better, you know.
JS: Okay, what kind of orientation do you get?
(34.41)
RF: Well we- we I can remember clearly sitting on some bleachers watching a combat air
assault, which the Cav. just did constantly. We did that two or three times a day. Bring in, they
would bring in some artillery rounds and then some gunships firing rockets down and then
choppers with, Hueys with guys on that you’d jump out and create a perimeter around this
landing zone that you were hitting. And we witnessed one of those, just so we knew what that
was all about. We got our first chopper ride, and I remember thinking, God there’s no doors on
this thing; you sit on the floor with your feet on the skids and your pack and a rifle and all this
gear. And by George, I don’t want them to turn so that my side is down because I’ll just slide
right out. That doesn’t happen because of centripetal force just, you’re just stuck there. But the
first time, there’s a little anxiety, but still, I thought, hey, people do this all the time. I’m, I get no
worse off than the rest of them, if I fall out, I won’t be the first one. But so, we had our first
�chopper ride. We just kind of buzzed around, and so that was good. I got to tell you something
that happened there though! We were sleeping in a barracks, and this guy comes in from the
field. He was soon to go home within a few days, so he was out-processing as we were inprocessing, we’re all in the same building. And he comes in the building carrying a helmet that
he had had. And that helmet had a gun shot that went in kind of from the back and came out the
front. It was a good-sized hole. More, not an M-16 or even an M-60, but maybe an M-50 round.
And he had that thing on when that thing, when it got shot. And he said but the only injury he
had was a piece of the steel pot that’s imbedded in his neck. But he was given permission to take
that helmet home. He showed us, the round went through there, it went through the steel pot and
the helmet liner, and he had some letters; we always tucked our letters inside the helmet liner in
between the web and the fiberglass to keep them dry, because everything was wet. So, tuck your
letters in there that you wanted to write home about. And it even sliced through the upper level
of that letter in his helmet. Boy, was that an eye opener! But they had given him permission to
take that thing home with him because that was quite the souvenir. But it didn’t get him to go
home, it just, he could take, it was his time to go home, he had been there a year.
JS: Right- right, okay so…
Of course, that didn’t do much for my confidence about.
(37:48)
JS: Yeah, when you were in the orientation, did they try to teach you anything about
Vietnam or the Vietnamese people, and how to deal with them? Or just stay away from the
women?
RF: Well, yeah, I guess. I think some of that went way back to AIT. Because a lot of transmitted
diseases, and you’re still representing your country here, you know- you know how to behave.
�But yeah, there was lessons like that probably back at AIT and probably reinforced again there,
although I don’t remember the specifics of that.
JS: Alright and then once you finish that orientation, now do they send you to your unit?
RF: Yes. I don’t remember, we must have been choppered out, but now you’re getting fewer and
fewer. Now there’s probably only two of us that were gonna go out to Bravo company, maybe,
maybe I was the only one. But at any rate, choppered out. Don’t know where I’m going, of
course. Turns out, they were guarding bridges in what they call the Bong Song Valley. And it
was a river, and it had bridges on it. And they, the army did that, they- they would… did this
several times, they would take you out of the field and give you some light duty, which was kind
of nice. You got to sleep in a bunker and get a little more rest and you didn’t walk all day
through the jungle, so it was a break. They at that time, Bravo Company was guarding bridges,
so I ended up, got dropped off by the end of this bridge, and I don’t know, somebody probably
met me, they knew I was coming. And they knew what squad and I was gonna be, what platoon
and what squad, I don’t remember if I was in the first, second, or third platoon, but I remember
the squad: there were three of us; a squad was just three. And the other two guys were stationed
at this bridge, but they were up on a hill, near the bridge, at a bunker, at kind of an outpost, and
they were spending their- their day out there, and maybe their night. But anyway, somebody
walked with me up there and introduced me to these two guys. I don’t remember their names.
One of them was a really, a small guy, wiry and hardened, and the other guy was much, a little
bit bigger. And but introduced me, and we probably sat around after a few minutes talking about
where you’re from and what’s your name and this and that. And then they said, “but why don’t
you just stay down at the bridge while we’re here? You know, meet some of those guys since we
don’t really need you up here anyway.” That’s great, okay. So, back down by the bridge, and
�there’s this little bunker built above ground right at the end of the bridge. It’s a fairly wide river,
and there was also people guarding on the other end of the bridge, maybe that was a different
platoon. So, we killed time during the day, you didn’t have much to do. At night… and of
course, the chopper would bring out food. So that was all good. Chopper would come out in the
morning with breakfast, ammunition if you needed it, you just help yourself. And C-rations to eat
at noon. And then hot meal again at night, more ammunition, and mail. At night, I had to take my
turn walking halfway across the bridge and back, and a guy from the other side would walk his
halfway across the bridge and back. And we were supposed to drop hand grenades over the edge
from time to time. Don’t know why, except that maybe we just let the Vietnamese know we were
still awake and know we were there. And so, we decided the thing to do is, if you drop, just pull
the pin, let the lever fly, you got four seconds in design. If you did that real quick, the hand
grenade would fall in the water and the mud and water would fly up all over the place. If you- if
you flipped it out too soon, let go of it too late, it would go off before it got to the water, and then
just powder the bottom of the bridge, which was just wood with gaps between, with shrapnel. So,
we decided the best thing to do is to wait a couple seconds after you let the lever go, and try to,
and just a game, see if you could get it to explode just as it hit the water. Kind of a dumb thing to
do, but you got to do something. And you do that for an hour, hour and a half, whatever you’re
supposed to, and then you wake up the next guy, and then he’d take his turn. We did that,
another thing that happened when we were there, is a chaplain came out. Didn’t see the chaplain
very often, but once in a while the chaplain would come out to the field. And I remember that
time, because it was the first time. And he, I don’t know if he was Protestant or Catholic, doesn’t
matter; he was Christian. And because the Catholic fellas would go up and have confession, walk
up. And those of us where Protestants, we just sat there. And so that was okay. He, I remember
�he couldn’t wait to get back on a chopper and take off. And we were in a- in a fairly secure
place. And we didn’t take any gunfire; it was no problem the few days we were there. But then
that ended, and then we go back out in the boonies.
(43.19)
JS: Okay, now during the day were you checking the traffic as it went back and forth.
RF: No.
JS: Just let the Vietnamese come and go?
RF: No. Unless you saw something that was very unusual, if there’s some guy carrying a gun.
But there were always what we call ARVNs. They were, they would be on the buses or
motorcycles and we never knew what they were doing. Didn’t really pay much attention to them.
You didn’t, gotta admit I didn’t trust them a whole lot, and I don’t think any of us did.
JS: Yeah that’s the ARVNs, that’s the South Vietnamese Army.
RF: Yeah, yeah.
JS: Okay, what impression by now do you have of the Vietnamese themselves? You’re
watching them on the bridge and that kind of thing for a few days. Did anything register
with you yet?
RF: The language kind of irritated me. No, it was not their fault, but I didn’t know what they
were saying. And there’s always this, “what are you talking about?” You know, of course, they
didn’t know what we were talking about either. But yeah that- that has stuck with me for many,
many years. I’ve finally gotten over that. God, probably 20, 25 years ago, I was in a McDonalds
and there was a Vietnamese family and they were talking Vietnamese and it kind of made the
hair stand up on the back of my neck, just the remembrance. So, that struck me. I don’t know if it
was when I was at the bridge, but another thing is they, we thought they- they chewed beetle nut,
�and it was I think it was a gum or a narcotic, I don’t know what it was, but their teeth would turn
black, so they often looked like they didn’t have teeth. That struck me. And of course, their
clothes, they often, the women, in these black clothes, the pants and everything black, and these
hats. And you kind of get used to that real quick. They would try, I don’t remember, it wasn’t
there specifically, but they were always… typically, if you were interacting at all, they were
trying to sell you stuff because they wanted money. Can’t blame them.
(45.24)
JS: Okay, now when you’re on bridge duty, I mean were you getting solicited by people at
all or?
RF: No, I don’t remember that.
JS: Okay, alright so how long did you stay at the bridge?
RF: Oh, just a, I think if I had gotten there when the platoon had gotten there…the battalion…the
company, it might have been a week. But I was probably there three or four days.
JS: Okay alright so what comes next?
RF: Okay, out in the field. And that was my first experience of a real combat air assault. And we
did that, and then when you hit the ground, then the lieutenant of the company would say, “okay,
we have to go so many klicks or kilometers in a certain direction,” and he’d point out somesomething on horizon that we’re heading towards. And these were always what the army called
“search and destroy.” And we believe that there was some intelligence that said there was some
activity in this area. Maybe you run, you were told you were gonna run across a village, maybe
not. So, you did that, and you got to where you were supposed to go, and then the next thing you
know, well they’re saying we got to make a little clearing for choppers they’re gonna, hey bring
you someplace else and you do the same thing. And that would happen two or three times during
�the day. Of course, again, the routine was in the morning, everything kind of works together.
How a company operated with three rifle platoons and a mortar platoon. And the mortar platoon,
you were always together but at night, the mortar platoon… you’d set up this LZ, a small camp,
and the mortar platoon would be in the center, and one rifle platoon would build a perimeter
around it, dig a little fox hole wide enough for three of you- you always worked in three. These
two guys I met, we, the three of us were always together. And other groups of three. Well and if
you were gonna stay with the mortar platoon, which was rotated between the three rifle platoons,
one night with them, two nights on ambush, dig this little fox hole that three of you could sit at
the edge and get your feet in there and pile the dirt out in front and build a hooch behind it so you
got to sleep under the ponchos. And somebody had to be awake at each spot each, all the time, so
you rotate, everyone got rotated again: hour and a half awake, wake up the next guy, he was
awake for an hour and a half, and the third guy an hour and a half, or an hour, whatever you
agreed. And then in the morning, every morning, the two platoons that were on ambush would
come back in. And then food choppers would show up with breakfast, ammunition… oh, and I
think, I was told it was unique to the Cav., we had this mad minute where all the rifle platoons
would fire one clip of ammo through their rifle to clean it out. We never cleaned them, we just
squirted mosquito repellant in the chamber and run 18 rounds through it to clean the thing out of
the dirt and water. So, we got ammo; if you needed it, you helped yourself. Hot breakfast, God, I
don’t eat pancakes to this day! Pancakes, pieces of pancake and some eggs, instant eggs. But you
ate because you were hungry. And then they also threw out these boxes of C-rations. A carton,
several cartons, enough for everyone to have C-rations. You opened up the top, flipped it upside
down on the ground, the whole carton, because the names of the meals were printed on the top.
And you pull the carton off and so now you got probably a dozen boxes on the ground, but you
�don’t know which one. So, everybody’d pick up a box and whatever that box was, that was your
lunch. Except, that nobody liked ham, well, most people didn’t like ham and lima beans. And
one that I think nobody ate was ham and eggs chopped. But there was spaghetti and there was
pork stake and scalloped potatoes, that was pretty good, spaghetti was good. But I can remember
the two bad ones. We had a Sargent Bacon, was the first sergeant in our company, a big black
man. He loved ham and lima beans, so whoever got ham and lima beans go find Sargent Bacon
and trade whatever he had for your ham and lima beans, so you could at least get rid of that. If
you had ham and eggs chopped, just leave it! Take the little cup of applesauce or peaches with
you, little can of fruit, take the sundry pack; which had like hot chocolate mix in it, and toilet
paper, salt and pepper and sugar, yeah maybe some toothpaste, a can opener. So that was every
morning, and then away you go again, more combat air assaults. So, you know just day after day.
This was just, oh man it- it… I didn’t say it was meaningless, it was boring in many, most of the
time, except when you made contact and then just in an instant, everything changed. You had a
rush of adrenaline and everything’s changed. But most of the time, it could be days, nothing
happens. Except you just…
(51.30)
JS: Okay, now what was ambush duty like?
RF: Ambush? That was always interesting. Again, when the company ended for the day,
wherever that might be, you set up this camp for the night. Mortar platoon, one platoon, rifle
platoon around it. So, two nights you had to go on ambush and well, you’d eat supper, get mail,
ammunition, supper, mail. And that was always nice, and then go out on ambush. And whoever
was pulling point, it was, you didn’t know where you were going to go, but the point man, and I
was one, the three of us pulled point for our platoon. So again, we rotate everything. You know
�you’d pull point for a day and then you’d have two days where you didn’t, you’d be the second
and third guy. So, the point guy that day, would go out, and if you found a little stream, maybe
you’d seen it earlier in the day, or some other feature, and you think, well, there could be a spot
for an ambush. But you tried to get there just at dusk. And if it wasn’t quite dark enough, you’d
just walk past it, make a big loop, come back at dusk. And then everybody laid down, the three
of you, again. And about five yards over, or the army said meters, five meters over, another
group of three, and three, and three. Well, the first, the end groups of three, you had a Claymore
mine and you walked the Claymore mine out, I think it was like 150 feet or something, I don’t
know what that wire was. You’d put the firing cap in the Claymore mine. The Claymore mine
was probably about that long, that high, that thick, plasticine case. You’d slip the firing pin in it
and walk the wire back to the trigger at your position. That’s what the two end groups did, so
that if you heard something coming through you could fire this claymore mine. But you didn’t
fire the claymore mine until right away. You wanted whoever was coming to get in your line of
fire, but if more was happening, you could always fire this claymore mine. So, you did that.
Now, you did not build a hooch. You were just laying down in the grass, the wet, if it was
raining you were in the rain and whatever, it was dark by now. And again, three of you.
Somebody had to be awake and you just reach over and wake up the next guy. And no fox hole,
everything was quiet, and you spent the night then.
(54.23)
JS: What kind of terrain were you in? Were you in the highlands or lowlands closer to the
coast?
RF: Yeah, we were at that point we were in the highlands. Which is quite a, I don’t know if
‘jungle’ is the right word. We went through thick stuff, even if we were on a trail that the
�Vietnamese had built or cut. They were this short, and we were all you know, other than this one
guy, I can’t remember their names…but the three of us…this one guy was a little bit shorter but
I’m six foot tall. I had to stoop over to get through here. There were times when you actually, if
you were pulling point, you carried your weapon on semi-automatic. Everybody else behind you
was supposed to be on safe and you could flip it to automatic. We never fired these M-16s on
fully automatic. First of all, the recoil just, you couldn’t control where you’re shooting enough.
So, the point man is on semi-automatic, and everybody else is supposed to be on safe. Just for,
because you’re going through thick brush sometimes and the trigger could get jerked, action. But
so, what was I gonna say? It was something, oh, the point man, if you were walking after combat
air assault and you got the instructions on where you were going, it was the point man’s, nobody
gave him/ told him how to get there, you picked your own way, and everybody followed, nobody
complained, you know if he picked a bad route and had to chop through some jungle with a
machete, so be it, he did it. He has to make the way for us. There were rice patties around, and
we’d often end up walking through rice patties. I felt sorry for the Vietnamese, they would be
screaming at us. Of course, we didn’t know what they were saying, but you knew they weren’t
happy. And I don’t know if it bothered us a lot. I felt bad for them, but hey, I had a job to do. I
got to get through here. Didn’t, that wasn’t nice, and no wonder they hated us. You know, here’s
a guy trying to raise rice for his family, he doesn’t want a car in his driveway. He doesn’t want a
television in his hooch, he wanted rice! The rice patties were dirty water. They would, they had
terraced them a little bit so the water would run through a gutter in the dyke into the next one
until the water gradually found its way.
(56:59)
JS: Would you walk on the dykes or would you slog through?
�RF: Sometimes we walked right through the water. Sometimes on the dyke, but that was
probably not the safest. The safest place was in the rice patty, there weren’t, we didn’t worry
about land mines in the rice patty. We worried about little trip wires on the dykes, so. You’d
probably take the- the patty over a tripwire.
JS: Okay.
RF: The, but when you got… the next time you got a break, you didn’t take a break in a rice
patty, but you got on some dry, higher ground, and you’re gonna okay, we’re gonna take a
break. Whether it was for lunch or whatever the reason, you take your boots off because almost
always you would have leeches on your legs, your ankles, and up your calf a little ways.
Couldn’t pull them off. They were, oh, probably 3/8 inches wide as I recall, and maybe an inch
or inch and a half long. Gray, dark gray and they would be attached. And there’s two ways to get
them off: either use a cigarette lighter and heat them up and they would drop off or you take
mosquito repellant and squirt them, and they would drop off. But you always did that, and your
feet were always wet. No socks, just boots. Wet and dirty!
(58.17)
JS: Now when you were going over land, would you use trails when they were available, or
did you stay off of them?
RF: That was up to the point man, his judgment on what this looked like. The problem with
walking on the trail is that’s the best place to get in an ambush. Because they knew Americans
tended to be a little lazy and they wanted to find the easiest way to get to wherever they wanted
to get. And, but again, it was the point man. I don’t remember taking us, leading us on a trail.
Maybe for a short distance, but you’re always on high alert. Actually, the best place to be in this
whole company, which as I recall, we were about 80 strong, I think we were understaffed, but 80
�was about what we ever had. And you’re all walking with about five yards between you. Safest
place to be, except for trip wires, was at the front end or the back end, because if you’re going to
get in an ambush, they’re going to take the middle group, so in some sense, pulling point was not
a bad thing, except you had to be extra alert.
(59:37)
JS: Now how long were you in that highlands area?
RF: For the, my entire time in the field I was in the highlands area. A couple of experiences that I
had then; one time it was my turn to pull point and a couple I don't really remember I might be
combining two times because just for the sake of time now. I, it was my turn to pull point that
day and I had a bad feeling about it, but you can't- can't say well I don't want to do this, you're
here Faber, do your job. So, you don't complain but I was nervous about it. It didn't feel good and
we were on a- on a little trail or it was wide enough to have a vehicle on, but we were we're kind
of, I was getting instructions from the lieutenant on where we had to go, how far. And I prayed
that this was gonna be okay today and we it was a grassy area and what we called the elephant
grass it was tall grass but probably on me, up at my chest. Elephant grass we called it, for… it
was tall and I'm heading through here so I wasn't too worried about an ambush because there was
no place for anybody else to hide and it was quite a ways away from this little road or trail that
we had left and I could see that there was a bald spot in the grass. So, I thought wow that could
be a hole in the ground or something, I don't know what's kind of curious. So, I kind of angle
over there and I got closer and I thought kinda looks like a truck tire, what in the world is a truck
tire doing out here in this field. Take a few more steps and it was a python just rolled up
digesting his meal I guess and so I said to the guy behind me, “had a big snake here.” So, I not
going to kick the snake so I walked and kept going but I would turnaround periodically and some
�of guys would walk up and take a picture and some guys would be walking way over here you
know. It was kind of humorous. Everything went good, but when I prayed I did have this
calmness, say Rog, it's okay whatever, you're fine, you're okay. So, that was good now I don't
know if those two were the same day, you know this is 50 years ago literally and, but it was it
was boring most of the time- most of the time. I felt sorry for the Vietnamese. These we'd come
across these little villages and they're just scared to death of us, you could tell that they would
cower and- and I think that they- they tried not be friendly but to… didn't want to do anything to
upset us. So, they didn't hardly dare move and I'm sure that when the VC or NVA would come
along they would behave similarly, they would be friend of course they could speak the
language, we knew nothing. We didn’t have an interpreter in the field with us. We didn't have
any I think S3 is intelligence that was all back at on An Khê. If we took a prisoner, we get him
on a chopper or a casualty, a Vietnamese casualty, get him on a chopper, and they’d fly back to
An Khê and take care of whatever happened back there. We would do first aid on them if they
had been wounded but we didn't.
(1:03.19)
JS: Okay just, so you arrive basically what in October of ‘67 or November? Okay and…
RF: October I got there.
JS: Yeah alright and then how long do you spend actually with…
RF: In the field like that? Well what we call it, well again I want to touch on a few other and
incidents when we would get a break from this field business and we one time we went back to
An Khê and we were on QRF a Quick Reaction Force. And then we- we were allowed to have a
couple of guys maybe go to the PX, but most of us had to be there at that barracks that if
something happened, we could jump on choppers and respond. So, we got a call we- we had to
�get on these Deuce and a half trucks because there was a traffic problem between An Khê and
Pleiku, a traffic issue. We got out there and that issue was a python was on the road and just on
the shoulder and these little guys on these motor scooters didn't want to go around and the buses
were jammed up and so what you gonna do, what are we gonna do? So, we shot it. I mean we
shot it and shot it, we- we don’t mess with a snake. Well then, they- they get a call, the radio man
gets a call that the- the captain, the adjutant wanted, this snake. Oh, you got to be kidding we got
to get this snake up on the Deuce and a half, what a job, but we did it. I was in back- back at An
Khê at some point and this, talk to this adjutantnt he was- he was from Wyoming, City of
Wyoming so we had a little bit in common I could lieutenant or Captain Holbeeke was his name
and I said, “what about that snake? Whatever happened to that snake?” He said, “I'll show you.”
He rolled it out it was 22 feet long at the widest part it had to be 18 inches wide all dried and this
was his souvenir, his souvenir he didn’t have anything to do with it, except he had it skinned.
JS: Yeah.
RF: But you know funny thing, or funny and also if you went to the PX when we were in QRF,
picked up a few things I don’t know what we bought it doesn't matter. Get to the checkout line
and of course these people that were stationed at the, at An Khê, they'd get out of line because
we smelled bad, we looked bad, we acted bad, we had a rifle, and ammunition on us they got out
of line and let us go, pretty cool.
(1:06.01)
JS: Well I had been asking about time, actually just for frame, we're not necessarily done
with the field time yet.
RF: Okay.
�JS: But you're getting there because at the end of January the Tet Offensive starts and
both before and after that the division does move, but so basically though to get a back, so
basically how long were you working out of on An Khê before you went anywhere else?
RF: Okay that well first I got called out of the field in December.
JS: Okay.
RF: And that- that happened well I got to go back, I mentioned Sergeant Bacon, first sergeant
good guy. After you, a new guy had been in the company for a week or ten days at lunchtime
he'd come and sit by you and just say, “hey let's talk.” And so, he wanted to know you know
where you're from, you know would did you do before you got, were you drafted? Did you in
enlist? Just wanted to get to know a nice- nice thing to do. Makes you feel a little more part of
the unit and so I don't know I told him what my past a little bit and didn’t think much of it. Well
we were again we got called out of the field and we were now guarding bridges between An Khê
and Pleiku again this you know maybe a week, less than a week but a few days of rest and so we
were guarding this little bridge and one, and the truck was from An Khê would come out in the
morning and drop off food and ammunition, go to the next bridge, the next bridge, and finally
come back pick up the chow containers and one morning they said, “Faber get your gear together
you got to go back to An Khê,” and I'm thinking maybe one of my parents died or something I
got to go maybe I gotta go home something bad happened. So, the truck left I ate, got all my
stuff together, truck came back it stopped, I threw my stuff on the truck, get on a truck with these
guys, we get back to An Khê and they said, “you got to report to the orderly room.” Okay so I
went in there and the First Sergeant- Sergeant Lewis said to me, “you got a journalism degree?”
“No, I don't.” I think, oh shucks man I'm back out in the field, when’s that truck leaving? He
says, “can you type?” I said, “oh yeah I can type,” and well I had typing in high school we didn't
�have computers, but I could type. All ten fingers, and not real fast but I could type, and my
nature is to do it right, do it slow enough but do it right. So, he said, “okay, you can be S1 clerk.”
So that's how that happened I ended up taking the guy's place and he was gonna go back home
and so that- that's how that happened and then I thought you know that all stems from that
conversation with Sergeant Bacon. You know he put in a word that when they had a job like that,
I got this guy Faber, I want you to talk to him. I really think so, unfortunately, he was a casualty
and never got to talk to him again, never got to thank him. I don't remember if he was killed or if
he was wounded but I never saw him.
JS: Okay…
RF: And that happened about a week before Christmas of ‘67.
JS: Okay now back at the time in- in the field you talked about you know being at an
ambush duty and this kind of thing and in these camps at night, did you ever have contact,
did enemy attack you or did you spring an ambush?
(1:09.32)
RF: Not an ambush, not an ambush in the dark, that but that brings up another memory when we
loaded our- our magazines, or clips as we called them with- with more rounds we put in two
regular rounds and a tracer, two regular and a tracer, and a tracer of course you could see this
orange glow. You could see that in a daytime but at night you can really- really showed up.
Didn't have an ambush activity that was really pretty rare because the Vietnamese wanted to
keep their head down too. So, that was, we would get ambushed during the day, but they knew
where they were and they know where to run, we- we never did so we didn't set up an ambush
during the day. If we made contact, it was because we walked into something or we- we were
walking towards a village and we got some- some gunfire from a village. But not at night.
�JS: Okay so, when you had contact and you're out on patrol and so forth would it be just a
couple of shots quick or more organized thing?
(1:10.35)
RF: It was more than just a sniper. There was, we and that varied but once in a while it’d just be
a sniper, but it was more organized than that. They had a little plan it was almost like a mini, if it
was by a village they had a- they had a purpose and there again I don't know why we did this, but
we would often burn a lot of things in that village and I thought no wonder these people hate us.
Why are we doing, this is not a way to make friends you burn their hooch down for what? Just
because you think there's some ammo in there. Won’t talk too much about that, I'll talk about one
time I wasn't pulling point I was third guy that day, so I probably pulled point the day before but
we're rolling up an incline and all of a sudden, the point man started shooting rounds off. Well
the two of us behind us, one went a little to the left, I went a little bit to the right, and we kept
going up carefully. There was a bunker and he saw a; he’s telling us what happened he saw a
rifle sticking out of the bunker and it was in the ground bunker with a cover on it. And then the
guy he could even see the guy behind the rifle, so he shot. There again for some, we were told
that our orders were not to fire unless we were fired at. Well who come up with this idea, you
know you can't do that. Why, nobody, I mean come on you sent me over here but don't tell me
when I can shoot. So, anyway he- he shot the guy and he probably slid down into the bunker a
little bit but then another guy came out and ran around and I saw this, he started running around
and all three of us shot didn't see a weapon, didn't care. We knew we were in bad shape here, and
that guy got hit in the knee or in the leg but put him down and that was I think the point man
threw a concussion grenade down in the bunker and that'll take, get anybody else out of there and
by that time the rest of the company is coming and platoons coming up. Building a big perimeter
�and the- the medic is there and the lieutenant and the first sergeant wanting to know what
happened. You know you got a reporter or at least a verbal reporter maybe he filled out a paper,
an incident report. So, the guy that was pulling point was with, telling him and I'm sitting there
too, and the medic is working on this, wrapping this guy’s knee up. Machine gunner off to the
side, his machine gun, he was gonna shoot, that's right, he was gonna shoot some rounds down in
this bunker and his machine gun, m60 jammed. So, he goes out on the perimeter and he monkeys
with it gets it unjammed and all of a sudden this burst of m60 rounds. Yeah we all were startled
by that but this poor Vietnamese died and he had this wound in his leg, he didn't die of the
wound I think he died of fear but he got, he can understand here's all these big Americans talking
a foreign language you got some guy messing with your leg, you don't know what he's doing to
it. Anyway, not good- not good.
(1:14.17)
JS: Okay and how common was it to actually have a firefight during that period when you
were in the field? How often would those happen?
RF: Well sometimes you might go a week without and other times it would be once or twice a
week. They- they sent us you know they must have had information, but we made contact when
the Vietnamese wanted us to.
JS: Right.
RF: You know they when they thought they could cause more trouble than we could they wouldthey would- they would cause the contact because they knew how to get away, we didn't- we
didn’t.
JS: Yeah, I mean was there, were you aware of any effort to do things like count bodies or
count enemy casualties after these events?
�RF: Well we recorded we saw and that- that was, and the word was you count killed and
wounded. But for every KIA we, the army assumed two WIA’s. In the documentary and in the
books, I read about it later I don't watch movies about Vietnam, never. Well I watched Forrest
Gump but that was humorous too but otherwise I don't- I don’t watch any of these Good Morning
America or anything. But later I found out these numbers were padded, just terribly and the
documentary it was incredible, was gross, some said, somebody along the chain of command
says, “this isn't believable, we don't care, we don't care, somebody will believe it.” Well yeah, we
did we, I’m sure that the lieutenant the company commander actually it was always the
lieutenant I think company commander was supposed to be a captain.
(1:16.02)
JS: Normally sometimes the first lieutenant would do that, you have a lieutenant being a
platoon leader yeah.
RF: Yeah, yeah but we didn’t have any captains out there we just didn’t, they didn’t have enough
evidently.
JS: Right.
RF: So, maybe a first lieutenant but whoever company commander was filled out some report
whether it was probably by radio. I mean what we didn’t have paper out there in the wood you
know, I don’t know.
JS: Yeah.
RF: But probably by radio said, “we made contact this is what we see,” and somebody in the
back- back at An Khê was making up the numbers.
JS: Are there are other things you want to put in the story about time in the field before we
kind of switch over to your…?
�(1:16.40)
RF: Yeah, I was just thinking about that and my birthday is November 5 and I got moved to
Vietnam in October so shortly in the field my birthday comes along. My wife is always diligent
about sending letters and I to her and I got a lot of mail, more than most. On November 5, on my
birthday, on, she would send a package about every two weeks; I get a package on my birthday
with birthday cake in it. A little bit miss shaped because it gets banged around, but we got to go
on ambush and she sent this cake and a can of frosting just to put on it but we gotta go on
ambush, oh gather around guys cause we’ve got to eat this cake in a hurry so we smeared this
frosting on this cake with the bayonet and she had sent some forks and whacked this thing up and
gobbled it down. It came on my birthday.
JS: Wow.
RF: Yeah really something and we went on an ambush.
JS: Alright and kind of get in December now you’re coming back and now you’ve got a job
basically- basically a headquarters clerk?
RF: Yeah in the orderly room and the orderly room Sergeant Lewis was the first sergeant. They
had a clerk for each company and then the adjutant, which was Captain Holbeeke and then
myself, S1 clerk I was not, I was now in headquarters company and I was S1 clerk for the
battalion.
(1:18.22)
JS: Now what does S1 clerk mean?
RF: Okay S1, I didn’t know when I got the job. I didn’t dare ask the first sergeant I just, he said,
“go see so-and-so.” So, I did, and I said, “hey I guess I’m your replacement.” He says, “oh,” he
says, “I’m leaving in a week.” I said “okay, what is S1?” He says, “personnel records.” So, “oh
�what’s that, I mean what’s that all about?” He says, “well I put in orders for promotion for
different awards. I order forms that I use, I gotta order some of them here locally at An Khê the
Division Headquarters and some of them I have to send back to Washington depending on it’s a
DD Form or Department of Army form I don’t remember which I had to send where. But, oh and
another thing he had to do, or I had to do is sympathy letters for, to next of kin for anybody
killed in the battalion. The sympathy letter, yeah you had to, there was some things that you
always had to say. It had to be typed and without errors, boy that’s hard. And a manual
typewriter but at least I’m in a building now, but it was hard typing these things perfectly. I mean
you know, my wife here to type would be lots better but I’m doing my best. And if you make a
mistake you just start over, no copy machine, carbon paper, and you- you try to write like
massive shrapnel wounds or gunshot wound. And quite often I would get a letter back, I didn’t
sign it, but the adjutant signed it on the behalf of the battalion. We’d get a letter back saying that
the people would like to know where, more detail about the wounds, and the accident because
usually people were not allowed to have open casket. You know we didn’t have refrigeration.
(1:20.41)
JS: Yeah.
RF: Obviously and I- I had written something like massive shrapnel wounds. What are you
gonna say if a guy got hit by a rocket, you know we got pieces? It was hard, I know that, I can
understand as a grandparent now that yeah you want to, and I didn’t always know where. I mean
they wanted to know at what intersection, or at what stream, or what bridge. I didn’t know andand I didn’t make stuff up, but it was hard to respond. I always, that was almost as… harder than
writing the initial letter because you tried to respond and still you weren’t able to be. Then
there’s just some things you can’t, I couldn’t write. But that was a big part of the job. Also when
�we took casualties my job was to go down to the, well this, after we left An Khê when we got up
to Utah Beach and specifically at LZ Jane I still had the same job but now it’s not a building
anymore it’s a tent and but part of my job was when at LZ Jane when they took casualties in the
battalion I had to go to the first-aid station and take notes of the diagnosis and prognosis that the
doctor saw. And jot some things down that could be a little bit helpful if the man died later. And
that was just part of the job too, and then not no- no, not nice, not nice.
JS: Okay alright now on the base itself at An Khê, I mean how long did you stay there
before you moved?
(1:22.28)
RF: Okay I don’t know it says is my journal, I don’t think I know exactly when we move. We
move from one place on the, on An Khê to another building and cramped us down but we still
had a desk in the building and we slept in the back part of that building in Quonset huts.. At
some point I- I, there, I might have a record of when they, we moved, our battalion moved from
An Khê to Utah Beach just some beach on the gulf of Tonkin. North- north of De Nang, well not
as far north this Huế but in that direction. And that was kind of nice I, first experience with, do
you want to hear about this now? At Utah Beach I’m still doing the same job only now our
bunkers are above ground cause it’s all sand, so they built sandbag bunkers with the cover. Pretty
nice and I thought, you know I surely don’t get to shower and bathe enough and went and I’ll get
in this water I grabbed a bar of soap, I’m gonna go take a bath. I found out that you soap doesn’t
work in saltwater it just turns like a piece of rubber. That didn’t work so now I get out of the
water and I covered with salt, this is almost worse than dirt but I learned you know, I was, I’m
from West Michigan, big lake that’s nice, I could take a bath in Lake Michigan and it’d work out
great but not there, not in the saltwater but I learned. We weren’t there very long, but Sergeant
�Lewis could, he knew what was gonna happen and somehow, he found a way to get re, get
orders to rotate out of Vietnam, go back to Germany where his wife lived. He was still in the
army, but he was married to this German gal. He was E-7 so I mean we never saw him again. He
and the next thing we knew we’re going to LZ Jane which is about straight west of what was
Utah Beach. Things didn’t get better.
(1:24.41)
JS: Okay now is this all before the Tet Offensive began?
RF: No- no Tet was way back at An Khê.
JS: Okay you were still An Khê when Tet starts?
RF: I was at An Khê at Tet Offensive.
JS: Okay so talk about that, when that happens does anything affect your unit directly or?
RF: It did a little bit. In our typical army, An Khê had a, it was a big base and it had the ring road
and along the ring road where these guard towers and they barbed wire and lights and all this.
But they had, I had to go up, all of us did, take turns going up not all the way to the perimeter but
somewhat back from the perimeter in some makeshift shelter and we were supposed to be on
alert that if somebody, something breached that perimeter we would be ready that- that affected
it yeah. But not, we had some mortaring during the at night either early in the, early let’s say six/
seven o’clock in the morning or at nine/ ten o’clock at night, but again it was a big base and they,
I think they were really going after the fuel depot and that was not near where I was. So, it
didn’t- didn’t, wasn’t a problem.
(1:26.04)
JS: Okay so the start of the Tet Offensive doesn’t affect you particularly, it happens.
RF: Yeah.
�JS: Were you getting news or were you aware of stuff going on or were you just?
RF: Oh yeah, we- we knew how serious it was because we had units that were up near Hué and
they were taking casualties, so we knew what was going on. And we- we heard, see we were
quite a ways North, Saigon we didn’t know what was going on in Saigon, that was the least of
our worries. We didn’t really care, well we got our own problems, not gonna care about
Westmoreland man I, worry about him, he’ll take care of himself. We’ll take care of our self,
leave us alone, we’ll be okay. So, we were quite far north and but An Khê, we did not have a
major attack at Camp Radcliffe yeah more during peapod. Peapod [?], oh that’s terrible, yeah
that’s not so bad.
JS: Okay alright and the division was in the process of moving north in part to provide
more support for Khe Sanh and other things that were also going on during that period.
RF: Yes, further north.
JS: But- but the division is in the process of moving when the Tet Offensive begins at the
end of January and then after that your battalion then makes that move up.
RF: To, yeah to Utah Beach.
JS: To Utah Beach and now then you go to LZ Jane.
RF: Yeah.
JS: And is that where you spent now an extended period of time?
(1:27.30)
RF: Yes- yes, I think maybe in my journal is I’ve- I’ve tried to nail down dates and I can’t recall
them now, but I spent a long time at LZ Jane. It was a not real big, it was our brigade
JS: Okay.
�RF: And so, our battalion headquarters were there but the other battalions were also on this LZ.
There was a large artillery brigade or whatever they call them, there’s a large gun right by us an
8-inch diameter job. They kept water in there, sloshed around to get this thing anchored in the
mud and jump off the ground, kinda noisy. When he fired at night the whole roof of our bunker
would go whoop like that just from the concussion and we all, and sometimes you hear a short
round, bzzzz, oh boy, hope it makes it. My job was pretty much the same, getting more difficult
because now I had this little field desk that collapses in a tent. Holes all through this tent just full
of mortars or shrapnel holes and had this old Gestetner that I had to crank out paperwork on.
Poor old typewriter with chips in it from shrapnel and the Gestetner.
JS: What’s a Gestetner?
RF: What, oh my, a Gestetner is this thing that, don't you remember, you don't remember these
things…
JS: Well…
RF: Cranked and they had black ink on a drum, and you had a stencil that you had to cut and you
laid that stencil on the drum and there was ink in this thing and you- and you could automatic.
(1:29.17)
JS: Generate multiple copies is sort of the…
RF: Yes, that's what we did orders on and so that- that was my job. I had a Gestetner and if a
company clerk needed something done I did it on the stencil. I was the only one that was cutting
stencils on my typewriter and, but the old Gestetner I don't know what happened but it wouldn't
feed ink and so I had to take a tube of ink put it on some toilet paper and rub it on the drum, and
then lay the stencil on it and kind of press that in so that the ink could start coming up through
the- the cuts on the stencil and crank it out and hope you had enough ink to get enough copies
�that you needed I, this- this is making a lot of work you know. No, but you had a good time, you
know I showed you the picture of the guy cutting hair there and we one we had a steak fry.
Somebody I don't know who, but we all chipped in and he went to a Utah Beach area again on
the Jeep and bought from the wet so we bought it, we bought it with MPC, military payment
certificate because that's what the army used to try to keep US money out of, and they'd switch
the series of MPC periodically and then all the old series was worthless and poor Vietnamese got
stuck with, they really wanted regular currency, US currency but we, I didn't have any because
you just got paid in MPC and that's what you had. But it was curious we bought it from the
Vietnamese girls called them Coke girls. Yeah at LZ Jane life was just it was I could sleep in that
bunker, you know and then I'll tell you about that storm for the record here, you saw the pictures
but living in a bunker that was two, room for two cots and maybe about three feet additional in
length so it's probably ten feet long and a cot. And I had a piece of plywood on the floor, and
then the other cot, I lived there mostly by myself. And one night I woke up, and of course this
bunker is built on kind of a hill, and I can hear water running and what in the world what a rain.
Well the waters almost to the bottom of the cot, and so I got to get out of here. Well what was
happening is water running down inside of this hill got between couple sandbags, just like a
faucet running, just pouring in the bunker. So, I gotta get out of this bunker. Pick my rifle laying
on the floor and ammo bag, pick those things up, slip my boots on they’re in the water, climb out
of the bunker but by this time I'm deciding I’m gonna go to the chapel tent because they had a
wooden floor in there and at least I can get out of this mud and dark, but I know where that tent
is. Get in there and of course I can hear guys talking, the cooks are in there making coffee in
these big kettles, they just put water and coffee grounds right in there and let it boil and that's but
it's pretty good. Especially when you're cold and wet so I spent the night there I don't know we're
�just talking. And next day is just everything is mud and I got to try and get this typewriter going
again and the Gestetner and I get my desk in mud, and life is getting bad. And I- I don't well I
gotta get a few things out of that bunker yet too, I had some shirts that I had sent to- to the little
village outside of LZ Jane to get laundered and they had been all nicely folded they're laying on
the floor down there so I go down to get it and the water is up to my groin in right as you get
down in the hole. Whew, so, I can't live in there I build a hooch on top of the bunker two poncho
or three ponchos I got, I don't know where I found these tents poles but I, hey everybody man for
himself so I- I didn’t tear anybody else's hooch down but I found some tent poles and somesome ponchos so build a hooch. Even with one end, I had a litter, I don't know where I found the
litter with an air mattress, I put that in there and that's where I slept. But by this time I'm only
about six weeks from going home so I thought, I can’t, that I'll never get back in that bunker and
by this time they're starting to- to prepare another base camp called Camp Evans as I recall and I
never got there but so that's the timeframe. So, it must have been September, late September we
had this storm and I make a place to live on top, at least sleep. And I can remember guys saying,
“Faber if I was as short as you are, I would not sleep on that bunker.” I said, “if you were here as
long as I've been here and if we get mortared, I guarantee you I hear that mortar leave the tube. I
can be in the bunker before the mortar hits the ground, I guarantee it.” Because you're so in tune
I knew when we were getting mortared before the mortars hit because you get the whooshwhoosh and so I knew what that was and I, I'm sure that it didn't happen. Then I got a
replacement I think his last name was Lee, nice guy I don't know where he, he was like I was
someday hauled him out of the field to take my job and when I was gonna go back. And another
interesting thing I took a leave and went to Okinawa for a week I had, oh I had been to R&R, I
had gone to Hawaii and met my wife for a week and that was in June. Where was I before I went
�there, was I LZ Jane? Yeah I was at LZ Jane then already in June because I had a hopscotch all
the way back to Cam Ranh Bay to go to Hawaii and back from Hawaii, go back to Cam Ranh
Bay and hopscotch just, you just stand in, go to an airstrip and say where am I gonna go and I
give me a plane or let me know when a planes going I'll get on, and that's how you traveled.
Finally, a chopper, I got to be back to LZ Jane from Da Nang or something. Okay, this chopper’s
going to there. Anyway, so last couple of weeks get really short and I decide some reason I can't
believe I did this, I'll go to Okinawa for a week and that company clerk, of course we had been, I
don't remember names of these guys but he says, “oh I won't even take you off the morning
report, so as far as, you're not gonna, it's not gonna record this as leave, I just leave you on the
morning report but you come back.” “Don't worry,” I said I'm so short I got to get back here to
get go home and what otherwise I can't go home without orders, so he knew that. So, I hopscotch
down to An Khê totally illegal get to the airstrip at An Khê there's three or four guys that are,
we're all gonna go, now there’s three or four of us from other areas they're gonna go to An Khê. I
don't know if they were going legally or not but we- we get from An Khê down to Cam Ranh
Bay and we fly on a C-131, what they called weight available because they were flying jet
engines and other equipment on that needed to be repaired to Okinawa. So, we get to Okinawa
and I spend a week that was, eh that was okay, it wasn't Vietnam, so it was good. Don't
remember much of it.
(1:38.28)
JS: Didn’t you need orders to be able to get on these flights or did you just walk up and.
RF: I didn’t, I just said I got to go- to go to Okinawa, I didn't have orders that was the idea, you
know I just was going, and I guess I looked like I was, know what I was doing. And I was what
I'm- I'm looking like I was in the infantry I'm up from LZ Jane I'm doing… this guy's, you don't
�want to mess with him too much because he says he's going to Okinawa you let him go. So, I
went to Okinawa been, stayed there for about a week and so okay, time to go back to Vietnam.
Go back to the airport to the airstrip there I don't remember, the air force base, I guess. Okay I
gotta go to Vietnam I didn’t have any orders, well you got to wait till you’s got room on a plane,
weight wise. It took a day or so I'm starting, now I’m starting to get nervous because I got to get
back to Vietnam, get orders to leave, but I did, I finally, and oh I’d ride on these C-131s, there's
no sound insulation it's just sheet metal and boy the noise be get off you for hours you can hardly
hear anything. Get back to Vietnam, here I am at Cam Ranh Bay again I got to hopscotch again
no orders just tell him I got to get here. Get back, finally get back to LZ Jane just a couple days
before I get my orders to come home.
(1:40.00)
JS: Okay now during the time when you're- you’re up there, up- up north I mean your
division is involved in a lot of different action, they're part of supporting the recapture of
Huế and this kind of thing and then eventually the division or a large chunk of it goes out
to Khe Sanh and- and then eventually into the A Shau Valley after that. Now do you stay
on Jane the whole time?
RF: I was.
JS: And so, the battalion still has its rear area there and then they're going out but you're
staying on the base?
RF: The yeah, the brigade was operated a little like An Khê did originally and they had- they had
these rifle companies that Alpha Company, Bravo, Charlie, Delta they're all out there, but we use
choppers. You can't believe the chopper traffic and that's how people came and went, the
chaplain go out on a chopper, it's just constantly choppers. But I was, that was the last place I
�really was at LZ Jane and the brigade, the brigade was there I don't know about other brigades I
think they must have been in other places but the 5th brigade or 5th Cav…
JS: Yeah.
RF: …was that level. The 5th Cav was there at LZ Jane and then the battalions, along with the
battalions, and the- and the artillery unit. We were, must have been fairly close to the DMZ
because as I recall these artillery guys said, “yeah, they could fire into North Vietnam with that
evenings gun.”
JS: Yeah, yeah there were, those were up actually so you're- you’re actually at that point
you're north of way Huế.
RF: Oh yeah.
(1:41.49)
JS: And between Huế and Quang Tri basically.
RF: Yeah and Khe Sanh was a little bit more.
JS: That’s inland.
RF: Inland. Further west.
JS: Yeah north and west yeah, but you weren't going out to those points?
RF: No, no because my job was S1 you know I- I had my, I shouldn't say my hands full but that
was a full-time job. Take between casualty letters and orders to go on R… that was my job
assign guys to go on R&R and where there were gonna go and so in a way they'd like to treat me
kind of nice. And but we had to teach the new guys, we had a lieutenant that showed up one day
just green and he walked in there at ten. I'm sitting right near where the entrance is, and the other
clerks are in there. I don't remember where Lieutenant Curl spent his time, the adjutant. This
officer walks in green as grass. I'm right by the door and he says, “soldier I'm an officer, why
�don't you call these guys to attention?” I says, “we don't do that here, we don't do it, and we don't
salute anything lower than a major. This is just the way it is; this is Vietnam.” Our attitude’s
what you're gonna do? Send me to Vietnam? You know this- this is different this is not the real
world. This is- this is a different world, and they'd learned, these officers learned that you don'tdon't mess around with these enlisted guys because they're kind of ornery, they don't want to be
here and just leave them alone.
JS: Okay, now did you have a commanding officer that you reported to most of the time
while you were at the S1?
(1:43.31)
RF: Well…
JS: Who where you working with?
RF: Lieutenant Curl by that time Holbeeke is long gone, Captain Holbeeke, and now we got
Lieutenant Curl and he’s the adjutant general or adjutant whatever…
JS: Yeah.
RF: …of our battalion. He was my “supervisor” but he- he didn't bother me you know he, I guess
he knew me attitude. And I'd been doing this longer than he had, this adjutant paperwork so I
wasn't a, that was okay. His biggest problem was he was one night sleeping in his bunker and a
rat bit his toe and he had to have rabies shots, boy not good. I didn't know rats would bite I just
thought we had rats and almost every morning when it was, my rifle laying on the floor on that
piece of plywood in the morning there I could see the rat tracks on the stock, that black plastic
stock, the stock of an M16, rat tracks. And sometimes when I would be going, falling asleep and
I can hear them running around the top of the bunker on those- those sandbags but I didn't worry
about them, I thought eh they- they ain’t gonna- ain’t gonna hurt me. But once Lieutenant Curl
�got bit, I found out that rabid, if rats- if rats have, are rabid they will bite to unprovoked because
he was sleeping, dumb rat bit his big toe. So, he had to have shots.
JS: Alright I'm gonna ask some kind of standard sort of Vietnam stereotype questions.
RF: Yeah.
(1:45.04)
JS: One of the assumptions that people made is that there was a lot of drug use in Vietnam,
did you see any of that?
RF: Oh yeah marijuana I don't think, I don't know about other, I don't know anything about other
drugs but yeah. And even at the at LZ Jane because if you walked around a little bit after. I didn't
do it, I didn't touch it ever, but if I walked around a little bit in the evening you know nice
evening walk around you could smell it coming out of some bunkers. It- it was around I don't, I
didn't never touched it, never have.
JS: Did guys in, out in the field use it at all? Or would they only use it in camp?
RF: Not more than once. There's maybe once, we couldn't have it, in the field you couldn't put up
with it and that's why they ended up back in the base camp and they would be helping the cook
you know they- they would run errands. I mean you couldn't, they weren't gonna go home but
they would get, we had outhouses at LZ Jane we did at An Khê too. We didn’t have a flush toilet
so had these outhouses and the one close to our battalion, really close to the S1 tent had three
holes in it and- and the backs behind it that was low that was- that was below the seats was open
and they would have cut off 55-gallon drums about this deep and every day they would push a
new one under there and so some of these guys that couldn't hack it in the field whether of pet,
being petrified or- or smoking marijuana because we didn't put up with them in the field. Send
back and do something with them. They would have to pull these things out and burn that. I don't
�know if they used diesel fuel or kerosene, probably diesel fuel and burn that and put a clean one
or an empty one back in. That's a job they had.
JS: Yeah.
RF: But they were happy but anyways…
(1:47.12)
JS: Yeah, they weren’t in the field. Alright so and then another issue is one of race
relations, did you notice anything?
RF: No in fact one of the company clerks, I think of Delta Company I think that's what D was in
Delta, was a nice guy a black guy, very good worker did his job he was E-5. Nice guy, I
wouldn't, these, the guys that just ended up cleaning out the John's, the outhouses, and the cooks;
there was a mix of races. It wasn't a matter of what race you were to what you did it was because
you couldn't do, be in the infantry, you couldn’t, well you couldn't be in the field and so that had
but it had nothing to do with race. It had nothing to do with promotions, if you had spent enough
time in grade and did your job you got promoted. Had nothing to do, I didn't even know what
race some of these guys were by the time, you know I had in processed them when- when I
talked to them about going on R&R about so-and-so on such-and-such. I didn't remember what
race they were when it came to promotion time but I looked at how long they had been in and
their company clerk said these guys have been in long enough and so I would put in for orders. I
didn’t care, I didn’t think the army did. The S3 officer at LZ Jane was a black major, highestranking guy in the battalion but he was- he was intelligence officer. Nice guy didn’t… well of
course he had the rank.
JS: Yeah.
RF: But that was, it wasn't that, he come in sit down and talk to us, you know, nice guy.
�(1:49.17)
JS: Now you were there when Martin Luther King was assassinated.
RF: Yes, and Bobby Kennedy.
JS: And but the King assassination have any ripple effects, or you hear anything about
that?
RF: I know that we were aware of it, we had stars and stripes of course when we- we knew of- of
the, I'm sure I knew what things, well I learned from letters from home about Detroit and even in
Grand Rapids.
JS: Yep.
RF: This was all going on, but I didn't worry about what was going on in Grand Rapids and
Detroit. It was the least of my problems and I think we were too busy trying to keep our fanny
down to- to create any racial, I didn't, I there might have been racial issues if you get to Saigon,
and you know where life was different. I know it was Vietnam, but we were in an area where we
had to depend on each other and I didn’t care if it, if he was black or Asian or whatever if, if he
was on my side, he was a good guy.
JS: Yeah.
(1:50.28)
RF: And I think they felt the same way about me of course I grew up on Black Hills we get back
to that and I played on a, in the 50s when Jackie Robinson broke into the big league I was
playing on a American Legion team 13- 14 year old’s where two of us were white and the rest of
boys are black. Then at the same time our coach was Mr. James, he was black he invited two of
us that had played in Little League that he felt were pretty good ball players to play on his
American Legion team. We didn't call him coach, we didn't call him Doyle James, he was Mr.
�James- Mr. James. I give my parents all the credit in the world, I had no idea that they- they said
fine you play- play with Mr. James. We practiced at an old cinder field down on- on Rumsey and
Godfrey. Terrible ball field, but it had a backstop. Hot! We'd practice and oh let's pool our
money and somebody can go up the hill to the little grocery store and buy a bottle of pop, bring it
back down, pull the cap off on a, on part of the chain-link fence burr on there and we shared it,
passed it around. They, I didn't think of these ball players as black, I thought of them as ball,
friends that played ball and I think they thought the same way about me. That's where I came
from, so racial issue was not an issue for me in the army. I treated them as my friends, we’re in
this together and I think I never felt like they looked at me differently I think it's because the way
I treated them, I think. It- it- it's just never crossed my mind that we got racial issue here. I can't
remember, I thought it was the other name of this Sergeant Delta Company clerk Fulton, Fuller?
I don't remember, something like that, we hung out together you know is, we were friends.
(1:52.41)
JS: Sure.
RF: Not close friends but we did this is, this was our life and we had it, we might as well share it.
JS: At a place like LZ Jane, a relatively small base did you have any Vietnamese who
would work on the base or they, ones living immediately outside?
RF: No, no, they were, there was a little village outside and like I said I- I could get my shirts
laundered and fatigues launder, you never got your own back, you just sent in some two shirts
and you'd get two shirts. They were would, nothing- nothing personal about it but they did
laundry. That was done, and I think that's what supported that village. I don't remember what we
paid I'm sure I paid something, but we didn't have any Vietnamese on LZ Jane, we did it at- at
An Khê, we had them they cleaned up, picked up trash I don't know what they did. I had nothing
�really firsthand to do with them, but they were around, they weren't in the building, but they
were out in the I don't know what they did, I know they picked up trash.
JS: Yeah, at An Khê at least at some point while the CAV was there, there was also
basically the house of prostitution on the villas immediately outside.
RF: Yep that was part of An- part of An Khê ones like- like there was the main road from An
Khê to Pleiku and then there was a little side, they didn’t call it a street but that was a red-light
district that was there.
JS: And then was there anything like that near Jane or was Jane too small?
RF: Too small, the village there I don't- I don't- I don't I just pretty much stayed on that base I
had no reason to go anywhere.
JS: When you did the laundry did you just swap at the gate or something like that or
through the wire or would you go into the village to do that.
(1:54.40)
RF: I- I didn't even do it, I just gave it probably to our supply guy and he'd have a whole bag of
shirts and- and fatigue pants bring the whole business down and probably came back with some
clean clothes and then if you turn, gave him two shirt- shirts you said, “hey I gave you two
shirts.” “Okay here's two clean ones.” And I suppose we paid, but I never went into- into the
village I- I could have I mean we had Jeeps sitting there. I could jump on a Jeep and go but I,
why should I do that? This supply guy, that's his job.
JS: Alright, okay so are there other particular incidents or memories that stand out for
your time at Vietnam that you haven't brought into the story yet?
RF: Well R&R I talked briefly about it, that was wonderful that was the Army did. My wife flew
through military standby from Los Angeles to Honolulu so that was very inexpensive flight fair.
�She had to pay regular tourist to- to Los Angeles, but it was a wonderful week. They, we were
treated really nice to the- the community that we got a pocket, packet of coupons, we got a
discount for rent a car, and a discount for various restaurants, and entertainment things. We went
to a, the comedian that just got in big trouble, Bill Cosby, a Bill Cosby Show live there. Yeah
that was a high point no question about it of my…
(1:56.30)
JS: Yeah, I'm sure.
RF: And because I don't remember much about, I got pictures of Okinawa, but it was just to get
out of Vietnam. I wanted to get out and then trying to get back in wasn't quite as easy as, I mean
it was easy except I had to wait a day for, get a plane, otherwise it was easy, and nobody asked
me questions. I just, said I had, just what I got to do.
JS: Well I suppose someone saying he has to go to Vietnam wasn't gonna get a lot of
argument.
RF: No- no but leaving too I- I don't remember having any trouble I just went to the airstrip in
An Khê because they were still flying out of An Khê at that, in June or no in October I guess I
got somehow got to An Khê. I got to go to Cam Ranh Bay, okay this plane’s going to An Khê. It
wasn't an airport it was an airstrip with a building, and you told the guy where you wanted to go.
Okay he didn't care.
(1:57.33)
JS: Yep, not his job. Alright so now you, when do you get back to the states? When does
your tour end?
RF: That was in October of- of ‘67 of course.
JS: Well ‘68 now, you went over in ’67, came back in ’68.
�RF: Yeah, in ’68, October ’68. That was interesting of course then I had orders, so I- I didn't
have to be so brazen I, cuz I always had paperwork. And processed, got down legally, down to
Cam Ranh Bay again, to the out-processing center with my paperwork and they really had things
organized there again. They- they treated you nice and okay your everything's in order maybe
you got a… oh I got paid. I, they had been holding out a lot of money and they paid me cash. So,
I had a pocket full of money and orders in certain your assigned such and such a flight that's such
a such a time so be here and get on a bus and you go. It was on a Saturday before, no it was on a
Saturday, we got off the ground at Cam Ranh Bay at 7:30 on a Saturday night. We got, that plane
left the ground we clapped, stood up, clapped, we're all packed in again commercial flight but
three seats on each side of a tiny little aisle. They had flight attendants that gave us a box of food.
We made a, but it was, everybody was happy nobody was complaining but in cramped quarters.
We stopped in Japan to refuel again, can't get off the plane these guys are, you can't trust them, I
guess. And no, but I don't care, fill up, get the fuel in this thing and we're ready to go again nono muss no trouble. One stop in Japan, I thought we were gonna, I think we were led to believe,
and I thought we were gonna have to stop in Alaska, but they didn't they went directly to Fort
Lewis, Washington. We landed in Fort Lewis, Washington Saturday night course you got this
dateline thing so you same day twice.
(1:59.48)
JS: Right.
RF: Opposite going that way, so we landed Fort or McChord Air Force base on, we left on
Saturday night 7:30 we landed there at 7 o'clock Saturday night, half hour before we left so, I
know it's a 23 and a half hours, wouldn't stop for fuel Japan. We're getting treated nicer and nicer
still in these grubby old clothes but bus us into Fort Lewis, walk into a processing center. First
�thing they do is measure us for a dress Green's, gotta do more paperwork of course, they gotta
tell us that we're still in the Army and how we supposed to behave and we've got a 30-day leave
and my orders now are cut to go to Fort Polk. Oh yeah, this reminds me when you, before you
left Vietnam a month or two beforehand you could fill out a slip to say where you'd like to be
stationed if, because I came back with more than 90 or 100 days so I had to serve my time.
JS: Yeah.
RF: You could write down, so I put down Fort DeRussy, Hawaii was my first choice I liked that
because I was in Hawaii it was a nice place. Second choice Fort Carson, Colorado never been
there but I thought it sounds like it’d probably be nice. And Fort Dix, New Jersey cause it's out
east and we’d probably get to see a little bit around Washington, D.C. and Philadelphia, that's
cool I like history. Get my orders Fort Polk, Louisiana. Now still I'm not gonna complain I know
all about Fort Polk but now my MOS, I'm an E-5 been an E-5 for more than, well I wasn't in the
army a year and I had made E-5. Make rank like crazy in Vietnam and so I'm an E-5 and I'm I- I
had my MOS change from Eleven Bravo to 71 Bravo because I thought if this clerk- clerk’s job
doesn't work out I don't want to go back out in the field if I can help it. So, I changed my MOS
but secondary MOS is still Eleven Bravo but primary is 71 Bravo clerk.
(2:02.00)
JS: Okay clerk.
RF: Clerk Typist. So, anyway we're at Fort Lewis, Washington they treat us really nice do this
paperwork of course I got orders they, and then they give me some money to travel from Fort
Lewis to Fort Polk, but I got a 30-day leave. I don't have to report for 30 days so you're on your
own. By that time the dress greens were all ready, patches on them, nice and spruced up, new
shoes, new hat, everything’s really looking sharp. And you can stay for a steak dinner, I don't
�want a steak dinner, I want to get out of here, I'm going home. I don't know how many guys
stayed, we get out the door and there's a whole line of taxicabs and the first guy pulls up a little
bit, the first five guys out the door get in that one, the next five get out the next one, they all
know you're gonna go to the airport. Or maybe the guy said “we're going to the airport,” “yep
that's where I want to go,” so you and then he probably said, “five bucks a head,” or whatever, I
don't know what we all paid, five bucks or whatever the amount was. Brings us the Seattle
Tacoma Airport and timing was perfect I go in I think well United I know about they fly into
O'Hare pretty regularly. I went up to O'Hare counter the guy says… “I want to go to Chicago.”
He says, “okay it'd be 94 buck’s military standby, but you got to run.” All I got is this satchel, he
says, “gate such-and-such.” Took my money, gave me a ticket, he says, “go this way, turn this
way, and it's gate such-and-such and they're ready to leave so you got to run.” That's okay pick
up my satchel, ticket, run, and made it. So, we fly, I didn't have a chance to call home they didn’t
know where I am for all, they don't know if I'm in Vietnam, they don't know if I'm dead or alive
literally. Because going to Okinawa my wife got concerned, she didn’t get any mail, there was a
chopper crash that neared Da Nang and the guys were on their way home so she's nervous. I
didn't know anything about that I didn't have time to call from Seattle, run to get the airplaneplane, fly to Chicago, march up to the United counter, and by this time it's probably three in the
morning or so that guessing. I wanted to go to Grand Rapids, “okay the next flight is like 7:00 or
7:30 in the morning.” “That's okay I can wait, how much?” He says, “34 bucks.” I said, “34
bucks? I want to go military standby isn’t there room?” He says, “I can't tell you.” Oh hmm, well
probably there’s room but he's not gonna say I- I says, “can I buy a regular ticket?” “Yeah,” he
says, “I can sell ya a not a first class but tourists.”
(2:05.03)
�JS: Yeah.
RF: Yeah okay, coach 34 bucks. But now I can call, I get the ticket, call my wife’s, she was
living with her parents while I was overseas I called that house, talk to my father-in-law and says
“I'm in Chicago I got a ticket for Grand Rapids I'll be there such- such time.” My wife had; I
didn't know unbeknownst to me she rented a mobile home from another; she was part of an
Overseas Wives Club got to know these gals. All these guys in Vietnam their wives got together
once or twice a month for dinner and to chat. Well some guy came back and he was going, had to
go down to Fort Hood, Texas I guess and his wife, they had this mobile home in Cutlerville and
my wife could rent it for a month because they were gonna be gone. Okay, so she did I didn't
know about that, so I didn't know how to get ahold of her anyway, but I called her home talked
to my father-in-law told him when I was gonna be there. Yeah everything's fine he let my wife
know, my parents know, my parents let my siblings know. And this was Sunday morning, I get
on that plane there's five of us. I could’ve rung that ticket agent’s neck charging me instead of 17
bucks 34. Now 34 isn't much today and it wasn't a whole lot then I had a pocket full of money
because I didn't, I only collected thirty or thirty-five dollars a month in Vietnam. The rest of it
they were banking for me. Heck what a- what a character, he knew there was plenty of room, the
guy in Seattle charged me military standby without asking. I got a uniform on, wants to go to
Chicago, what a difference. Oh man I gotta forget about it you know but you something you
don't- don't forget like, yeah, he could have done better he coulda, “yeah there's plenty of room
here 17 bucks,” he didn't. So, got- got to the Grand Rapids and everybody is there of course,
except my mother and the story was she was, she wasn't feeling well, had cold or something. I
think it was just too much emotional stress for so long, she would see me Sunday morning and
she couldn't make it and that, I can understand that. Cause she was such a gracious woman and
�quiet and loving, I'm sure that year was hard on her, as it was on me and she was just so thankful
that her son made it home, but she didn't want to be at the airport. I- I’m, that's my story I'm thethe official story is she wasn't, she had a cold. She had a cold she could’ve, but anyway my dad
was there, my brothers and their family and it was cool, yeah it was cool. That's why I started
showing you that picture of that mobile home it said ‘welcome home Rog’ on it. That sign was
made by one of my wife's uncles who was an artist and he quickly made that sign on Sunday
morning and taped it up on that mobile home before we got there.
JS: Alright so now this is still coming back and you're not done with the army yet.
RF: No. I had yeah…
(2:08.34)
JS: You’re reacquainted and then it's, okay off to Fort Polk with you. How long did you
have to serve now?
RF: Well I came back in October, November 5 with my birthday that was in, I was on leave at
the time and that also was election day and Richard Nixon was re-elected was…
JS: Elected, first time.
RF: First time, okay he was elected. I voted absentee from Vietnam I don't know, I sent it in, I
assume I voted. But any way that was on my birthday but then middle of November I had orders
I had to show up at Fort Polk at such- such and such an office. Which I didn’t know where it
was, we got down and we went down together. Not knowing they didn't have married housing,
but I drove on base to the guard post and I said who I was, I maybe I don't think he wanted to see
my orders, there, don’t, wasn't worried about that stuff then. I said who I was and I have to report
to a certain building I don't where it is, he gave me directions, I went in there, and the guy says,
“we don't have any married housing, you can, you'll have to live off-base in Leesville or at De
�Ridder,” two little towns near there. And he said, “if you go to Leesville go to the Chamber of
Commerce.” It's upstairs over a shoe store or something, it was upstairs in an old building
downtown- downtown Leesville. So, I did some paperwork I'm sure he said, “okay you're gonna
work at this headquarters company for permanent party, be a clerk there.” Okay I don't know if I
even went there, I went in, we went into Leesville tell ya, we went upstairs to the Chamber of
Commerce, gal sitting behind the desk and said, “okay I'm here, I got in the army,” my wife is
standing next to me. I says, “we have to, we told we got to rent some place, and you have some
information, some listings.” She says, “yep.” She opened her dress- desk drawer there's a stack
of three by five cards with a sign ‘white’ and on this stack ‘black.’ She hand me the white stack
so we walk over to a little counter, we shuffle through them and find a few places that maybe
might be interested. Write down notes, we couldn't take the cards, but we could write down some
scratch paper some notes and addresses. And we headed out to this first place we visited, it was a
trailer, that might be okay. Couldn't even get to the door it was sitting in a big mud puddle, didn't
even get inside. Well head back we got another place closer in town. And the guy is setting out
the sign in his front door, ‘for rent’ nice brick ranch house, wow that's where we want to go.
Turn around, pull in the driveway talk to the guy “oh yeah,” he says, “it's the building behind the
house there.” Went there, screen is hanging, screen door hanging on one hinge. He's with us, we
get inside, the refrigerator door won't close, it's just one little shack of a room. Can't stay here, no
thank you, back in the car. Went to the third place which was housing built by the military for
officers during World War II, but they had been sold off to private party and they're now renting
but of course they're renting primarily to GI’s, that’s okay. Lots of buildings, we found an
apartment building available, or rent, on the end unit, a four-apartment building, old, furnished.
�We rented it, so that's where we live for until May because I had to go from November now it is,
middle of November to middle of May. What is that, six or seven months, whatever.
JS: Okay and- and what was the actual job you were doing?
(2:12.43)
RF: Okay I- I, in my journal I write, I don't really remember. I know that I was, I can still see this
orderly room; first sergeant had his desk right behind the little fence by the door where guys
would come in and complain about this and that. I don't know what was in this corner, but over
here was the company clerk, it was a guy from Pennsylvania who had sergeant stripes on, but he
was an E-4 but just because he was a company clerk and these guys were supposed to listen to
him, they made him sergeant stripes but he wasn't a sergeant. He sat here, I sat here, and there
was a private office and that was for the- for the company clerk, or the company commander. I
didn't even remember him, he must have been there, but I- I didn’t pay any attention to him. And
I- I can remember like only a couple of things; one my- one my, the company clerk did most the
work. I don't know what I did. The first sergeant… One thing I did is if there was a military
funeral of a, somebody killed in Vietnam that from eastern Texas or Louisiana and had requested
a military funeral, Fort Polk would provide the- the honor guard and that was always done then
by an E-6 in charge and then permanent party and it was my job to assign these guys on a
rotating basis to do a funeral detail as we called it. That’s right I did that, I just assign ‘em, let
him know, “hey you got such a such a day you got to go to, I’ll say, Mississippi,” well not
Mississippi, maybe yeah, cuz they went quite a ways sometimes. That was my job, and one time
they were on their way back and again I'd made no care whether black or white guys, they were
GI’s, that's the way that we wanted to treat each other. They're coming back on the bus they were
gonna have to stay overnight and the NCO in charge walked in along with the- the, these other
�guys. They’re all NCOs or maybe E-4 at the least, mostly E-5’s and plus the E-6. E-6 says, “okay
we- we need some rooms.” The clerk in the motel says, “well you guys can stay, but he can't.”
“Oh no we're back on the bus,” so they didn't- they didn't stay. Well good for that NCO that said,
“no- no we're all stay or none of us stay, too bad for you, you’ll have no more money.” So, theythey just came back. But you know every, most of the guys there were serving out their required
time and they ran these ranges on- on Tiger Ridge training new, more guys. We didn’t have the
best attitude, we had a lot of trouble on Monday morning, two guys got arrested for drunk and
disorderly in town, you know, and you try and get them out of jail. And troubles like that or
fights, these guys are not adjusting well and they're getting in fights. I didn't show up for revelry
because I figured I worked in the orderly room, I'm gonna get there, I can take care of the paper
you know I'm here. Just not a good attitude. The other thing I remember we must have had us,
had a change in command at some level and the sergeant major came in, talked to the first
sergeant, and says, “I need some guy to carry the flag, and a flagbearer during this ceremony.”
First sergeant says, I don't remember his name he sits, turns, he was an E-7 said to me, “Faber
you're the guy.” Oh brother I don't know, and so the sergeant major gets me out there by his
office, showing me where, when I got to hold the flag down, and when I gotta tip it up, and what
close I have to wear, and make sure your shoes are shined, and all this stuff. I remember doing
that. I played a lot of pool, we had a pool room in the back part of the orderly room, through
some doors and a day room type of thing. I played a lot of pool, and it got to the point when
these guys were getting close to getting discharged, they had to come in and do some paperwork
and so the first sergeant is busy telling them they ought to reenlist, you know. You tell them to
sign up, you know you're E-5 if you sign up there's a $10,000 bonus and they'll give you another
stripe, you'll be E-6 instantly. He's telling them that and I’m “no, no, no, no” shaking my head
�no. No don’t do it and most of them didn't, most of them were, but he noticed what I was doing
and so one afternoon he said, “Faber, you come in in the morning, we, I guess I was supposed to
be at 7:30 and I was, I'm a morning person, I was there on time. He says, “you come in in the
morning, do your work, and you get out of here. I don't want to see you around. I don't care
where you go, you get out of here.” So, often I was at home by 10 o'clock in the morning. One
day, this is interesting too, I'm I- I like to golf now but then I didn't golf much but there was a
golf course on Fort Polk. And I don't remember what it, couldn't have cost more than a buck or
two to play golf, and rent some clubs, dragged them around, and I'm playing all by myself, and
all of a sudden there's some guy just hitting the ball a ton. So, I walk off to the side of the
fairway and say, “come on just go through,” you know, “you're doing so good.” And he catches
up with me says, “no- no we can play together.” He's really good, I'm really bad but hey I don't
care if he. I had civilian clothes I took with me I'm not in a uniform. I took some regular civilian
clothes changed and then I go play golf. Couple of holes we played together and out comes the
guy from the clubhouse on a golf cart and he says to this guy I'm golfing with, “the old man is
ready for his lesson.” This guy puts his clubs on the golf cart gets on the golf cart with him and
go takes off, so I finished playing golf and get back to the clubhouse, turn these rented clubs in,
say, “okay, who is that guy? That was golfing and you came out and picked him up.” He says,
that’s Tom Weiskopf!” “Oh.” “He's a professional golfer.” “Oh, no wonder he’s so good.” Yeah
quite a coincidence you know, so Sunday, a month or two later, he- he was in basic training in
National Guard basic training. Which they also had basic training at Fort Polk, but I was always
part of Tiger Ridge. He was there for basic training probably February or so or March, I don't
know I'm watching a television on Sunday afternoon, golf there's Tom Weiskopf they’re talking
about Tom Weiskopf playing golf. I'll be darned, I know that guy it's interesting how funny
�things happen. And I would time my trip, I would never want… leaving the base going back
home when I first got there and had a work a whole day, I timed my trip so I wasn't driving past
the main post flag at retreat because then you had to stop, stand outside your car, and salute. I
didn't want to do that, I would go early or late, but I didn't want to do that.
(2:20.40)
JS: And while you were there did your wife get a job, or?
RF: No, she couldn't. There were all kinds of army wife’s there, you know and then she became
pregnant so then she wasn't feeling so good. But I don't think she tried; I don't think that the city
folks liked us a whole lot. They- they wanted us there, but they didn't like us. Granted- granted a
lot of GIs were troublemakers think just caused a problem for that little town. They
[unintelligible]… even this town is so small my wife needed a pair of shoes, we had to drive to
Alexandria. That was a 50-mile trip to buy a pair of shoes. They didn't have her sized shoes in
town or at least that she wanted to buy; it was crazy. Same thing when we were in, right after we
got married, she had been working in a bank. And what was Michigan National Bank way back
then before- before we got married. We moved to Madison, couldn't get a job because I was draft
eligible, nobody wanted, they- they knew what was going to happen more than likely. And there
was enough people that now, and when we, when we got out she didn't go back to work. I gotta,
when I got out of Fort Polk, got out of there on a Friday I was supposed to get out on Sunday, but
they didn't process Saturday and Sunday, so I got out on Friday before. Walked out of that
building with my pay and travel pay from Fort Polk up to Grand Rapids, Michigan so I'm getting
plenty of cash and we're moving home. That was on a Friday, we hit Grand Rapids Sunday
afternoon, it was Mother's Day. I had forgotten that, but when I worked through my journal and
then wrote down things from my grandkids and kids, my wife says, “that was Mother's Day
�when we got home.” Then she didn't go back to work. I had a, I had been working in Madison
and I had every intention of going back and they were obligated to give me a job back and I
wrote to the guy that I really connected with there and he still worked there, Palmer Hayes and
asked him for some drawings because I said Palmer I think I would like to, in a letter, I'd like to
see if I could get a job in Grand Rapids. I've been away for two years, my family is all there, my
wife's family, see if I can get a job. I don’t know so don't say too much. So, he fixed me up with
a set of drawings that I had done some of the drawings on. Get home and my brother-in-law says,
“you know there's this one small firm guy, nice guy owns it, his name is Dave Post. Why don’t
you talk to him?” So, I called him up he says, “yeah come in to see me, we'll go to lunch
someday.” So, I went down, we went to lunch, he was a member of the Pen Club, we had a nice
lunch. On the way back he says, “you got a job.” So, that was it, worked and my wife didn't go
back to work until our kids were in middle school and high school and then she went back to
work.
(2:24.03)
JS: Okay.
RF: Yeah that's kind of my story.
JS: Alright so to look back in the time you spent in the service, so how do you think that
affected you or what did you take out of it?
RF: Oh, it man, it affected me dramatically, especially my time in Vietnam because we knew no
[unintelligible], wedidn't, I didn't to this day Jim we got a very nice house. I became registered
afterwards, so I'm a registered architect and I had a good career. We have a nice house in Forest
Hills. There's a downspout outside our bedroom wall at the corner of the house. If it's raining, I
can hear water dripping down that downspout and I thank God for a clean, dry, warm place to
�sleep. I- I, it's changed me, my baseline of what I need has went, really dropped because my wife
will say, “you know we really ought to replace some carpet.” And she doesn't want em, hear mehear me say I said, “I think it's like brand-new.” But it's okay for me but I- I, we've been married
for 51 years. If she says we got to replace a carpet, we replace the carpet but not because I've
ever noticed, it- it's just so that- that has changed me and it's a good thing, I don't feel bad about
that. Now I volunteer every Friday with Family Promise, the homeless shelter for families. I do
that for a couple of reasons; I used to tutor and mentor young men, African American, black
boys. Now I volunteer with Family Promise again because I got I- I've been blessed so much in
my lifetime and the military service has been part of that. It’s had the impact on me that I have
real empathy for homeless families. Family Promise is unique because they keep the dads and
the older boys with their mother and the little- little kids. They have 27 families in the program,
the families at this point spend only a month to two months, by that time they, Family Promise
has helped them develop the resume, coached them on interviewing, found him a job, and found
them affordable housing. Then they're offered a mentor or a coach, whatever they want to call it
to work with them for the next year or whatever. They'll meet with you once a month, once a
week, once- twice a month, once a month, help them make better decisions. These aren't bad
people, some of them yeah I wonder about, but most of them are not bad people, but they made
bad decisions only be… primarily because they didn't have the benefit of a family unit that didn't
even tell them how to make decisions, they did, my parents showed this, showed us how. They
you know, so I kind of caught it. I wasn't taught it, but I was caught it I saw my parents sacrifice
so we could go to Christian school that was more important than having a different car or having
a television. So, the, I- I attribute some of that to my parents; the upbringing I had and my faith
which is still very, most important to me, and then my family. And I want to leave some legacy
�to my children and grandchildren of what I think is important. So, at Christmastime I give all the
grandkids $20 and tell them I would like you to contribute this to some organization, any
organization you choose, just send me an email on where it went. So, I know you did something
good with it. And I hope that that has, that they'll remember Grandpa Faber by that, now three of
them are in college, one of them is transferring to Grand Valley. She wants to be a ultrasonographer or whatever they call it, she's- she went two years to Lee University and now she's
going up to Grand Valley. I got, she's the oldest, then I got a grandson, or we do have a grandson
who goes to Grove City College in Grove City, Pennsylvania he's on a full ride scholarship very
bright. And another grandson goes to Judson University in Elgin, Illinois. They have an excellent
architecture school and that's where he's going and he's doing better than he did in high school.
Which was same thing for me, I just wasn't motivated and applied myself enough in high school.
I did much better in college. All of that's okay, but I- I'm hoping that they sense, you know
grandpa, there's some more important things to grandpa than, I want them to get an education,
but I want them to use it. They have some God gifted- God gifted talent and I want them to
develop it. Have another grandson who's gonna be a senior in high school in Chicago Christian
next year, my daughter and her husband live there. She's a teacher in Christian middle school but
Alex will graduate, he said always for years he wanted to go to the Air Force Academy, that’s
fine Alex. We saw him this fall and I said… are they still taping all this? Because this is nothing
to do with Vietnam, this is just me now talking.
JS: This is- this is just a, we're moving toward closing out it's fine.
(2:29.47)
RF: This, anyway, saw Alex last fall, Grandparent’s Day at Chicago Christian High School.
We’re eating lunch at this table, his other grandparents are sitting across, Alex is there, Alex’s
�friend, Judy and I. And I said to Alex, “you go to the Air Force Academy” And he's, I had
witnessed him in an honors calculus class, this kid is bright. He's doing it on his iPad, and or on
his laptop and his phone these problems that teachers, and he's scoring in the top three in his
class doing the problem twice. Anyway, bright kid I started, “getting major in engineering?” He
says, “grandpa,” he says, “I think I'm being called to be a teacher and teach religion class in high
schools.” “Good Alex,” it almost made me cry that, you know, I- I think they're learning more
than an education, education is important I'm not minimizing it. It's very important but to me
there's- there's some character that's more important, just as important. You can be a person of
high character delivering coal; I saw that and it's just good work and he could have done more
but he did the best he could. My mother couldn't finish school either, she could have been a
librarian, very- very bright but didn't have that opportunity. They were born in 1908, 1906 lived
through the Depression, anyway that's getting away off.
(2:31.31)
JS: Alright.
RF: I’m- I gotta say about any reflections on this, I mentioned I think briefly that I think Vietnam
was a mistake and that they did, we never understood what the Vietnamese wanted. They wanted
to have all of us occupiers out of here we didn't get it. It, after watching the documentaries it
really, I had read a book several years ago about Vietnam, the history or something I think it was
produced PBS or NPR or something. It was very thick book I lent to my daughter, but in there it
was the first time I heard that maybe the Gulf of Tonkin was based not on a fact and that troubled
me. Then Robert McNamara on his deathbed fessed up. LBJ never did, Robert McNamara said it
was, it was not the truth. Which gave a basis for the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution which gave the
president the- the authority to build this thing up. And then I watched a documentary and I hear
�these politicians say, “I- I know we can't, literally, I know we're not gonna win but I gotta get
reelected.” And my blood boils to think how can you do that, how can you sleep at night. Now
we have a memorial 58,000 names of young people, primarily young people. What do you want
to say to their parents? Want to say to their siblings or to their spouse? How can you, how could,
how would you do that? So now I've become not skeptical anymore, I'm cynical and I don't like
that and I'm trying not to be angry about it, but when I think about it.
(2:33.21)
JS: Sure.
RF: It- it, I- I am angry that, I expect more better from our leaders. I really do.
JS: Yeah, I think that's a perfectly reasonable expectation. I'll tell you it makes for a very
good story and you tell it well, so I just like to close this by thanking you for taking the time
to share it today.
RF: Well my pleasure, I did recall from that initial interview which I wasn't- wasn’t prepared for
didn't but when I watched the videos that I did and went through that process and then I got youryour mailing, I thought I- I’ll share this, he can do what he wants. Maybe it's nothing but I put a
lot of work into, took me a long time, a lot of thought, a lot of remembering. So, now my
interview can be better too because I…
JS: Right.
RF: I recalled, and I got a different perspective on things. Yeah so, okay good.
JS: Alright.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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RHC-27_FaberR1990V
Title
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Faber, Rojer (Interview transcript and video), 2016
Date
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2016-05-29
Description
An account of the resource
Roger Faber was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, on November 5, 1945 where he graduated high school in 1964. He studies architecture at Ferris State College and went to work in Wisconsin before he was drafted into the Army. Faber attended Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. He was then deployed to An Khê with Bravo Company, 1st Cavalry Division. His platoon guarded bridges and conducted Ambush duties in the Highlands. For the remainder of his tour in Vietnam, Faber served as an S1 Clerk for the Headquarters Battalion in An Khê, Utah Beach, and LZ Jane. Afterwards, he was sent back to the U.S. to serve out the rest of his service at Fort Polk as a Headquarters Company clerk. When he finally left the service, Faber and his wife moved back to Grand Rapids where he resumed his architectual work.
Creator
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Faber, Rojer Lee
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/046f9ac8aaffcc434cf53d52a0e8e54c.mp4
6af7f95612648bdace8403ec7f12aa67
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a2431db152d895162a7bf959ffc03b9.pdf
d83c2ea2fc2b866f60c06fc1fea6a9dc
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Interviewee: Norman Christopher
Interviewed by: Dr. James Smither
Born: New Jersey
Transcribed by Jennifer Hughey
Interview length: 1:58:21
Norman Christopher: Okay, I was born in New Jersey, in Patterson General Hospital and then
lived in Ridgewood New Jersey, went through all the public school systems in Ridgewood and
graduated from Ridgewood High School.
[0:51]Interviewer: Alright, what year were you born?
1943
And what did your family do for a living when you were growing up?
We lived in the northwest corner of Ridgewood and my father, at that time, commuted into New
York City and he would get up on the train and leave and then come back in the evening and
then we were at that corner in the northwest where the school system started with elementary
school, which was close, and then middle school got further away, and by the time high school
came it was way on the other side of town with no school buses, so we had to figure out how to
get to school every day.
Alright, what kind of job did your father have?
He was in the insurance industry and, interestingly enough, was a hull secretary and hull
secretaries insured ships. So he was with Atlantic Mutual Marine Insurance which sort of got me
interested, at that time, in boats.
Now, what did you do after you finished high school?
What did I do?
Yeah.
Immediately upon graduation, the question is where do you go to college? I was one of the few
that went south. I went to the University of North Carolina.
And why did you go there?
�[2:10] They had a Naval Reserve Officer Training Corps program, it's called the ROTC. I
entered that in conjunction with going to college, and it paid for a portion of the education and it
was a full almost like immersion into naval history and you also spent each summer aboard a
ship and then upon graduation, you receive an instant designation and then from there, had the
opportunity to share what kind of ships you might be interested in and from there your naval
career would get underway.
Did you go into this with the idea of actually maybe having a career in the Navy or was it
just something to do?
I did. Didn’t work out that way full time, but I did have an idea in the back of my mind about that.
Ok and did you start college in ‘61?
Yes
So at that point there is no hot war going on, there is a cold one, but not that. Now you
were talking a little but about the ROTC program was structured, you mentioned that you
went aboard ships during the summers so what ships did you go to, and what were you
doing?
[3:25] Right, so I could remember several of them one--and again these were not necessarily all
the types--so I was aboard a submarine, which was the harder, and these were deployed
usually along the East coast, and so I remember several of the deployments being either out of
Norfolk or out of Charleston. Second one was the USS Recovery, very interesting ship, which
was a rescue ship. And so these were usually few week deployments where you would go
aboard for training in a different area and then you would sort of see. I remember also going
down to flight school, looking at that, determining that that was probably not going to be
something that I would long term get engaged with. I was out of Pensacola, I think maybe that
was my third summer, so you just get a little but of a variety and then you would come back with
those experiences and then get back immersed into the full ROTC program. I was called what
they call a 2x6 which is a minimum of 2 years active and a minimum of 4 year reserve as your
commitment to that program. Interestingly enough, I recently went back to the reunion and it
was one of the strongest showings of any--whether you picked a sorority, picked any group at
UNC--I was moved by it. A lot of the people who had served in Vietnam and other areas all
came back, and of course nobody had ever followed anybody for all that period of time but we
had a chance for 3 hours to just get together and it was very quiet in terms of--I don't usually
share what I'm gonna share and it’s just because that's just the nature of the service--and so I
saw such a strong kind of commitment to some of the things that we were about to engage that
these fellow ensigns and others came back to see each other so there was a camaraderie that
was there that I just missed, but we had a chance to see that camaraderie many, many, many,
many, years later.
Now was this a 50th-anniversary thing?
�Yeah, I just went through that it was very moving
So, you're basically in college in 61 to 65,
Correct
[5:56] And over the course of that time, the country is kind of leaning toward actual
conflict in Vietnam. Did you pay much attention to the news of the world while you were
in college or did you just stay focused on your own stuff?
I was aware but boy, was I focused. Because even though you don’t get a degree in naval
science per se, you’re taking all those courses and then you're also looking at a BS which I was
trying to do. So it was a fascinating thing so it was a lotta schoolwork at that time so I was fairly
focused, probably not as aware of current events at that time, but it was focused cause you had
to go to drilling as well and you had your own obligations to the--not just to the ROTC program
but to those on campus that would engage the training program-- so there was constantly
something going on all the time.
Now did things like the Cuban missile crisis or the Kennedy assassination affect things?
Kennedy assassination, sure. So that sort of heightened it was like “wow these things really can
happen” and not so much what your role is gonna be in it now but it was more like the scouts’
law: be prepared something is coming. So it was like creating a much higher sensitive
awareness if you will. That what you’re going through isn’t just necessarily going through the
motions. That's when I first felt like “wow something might happen here where you could
actually serve in other than a normal time effort.” You could feel it coming.
While you were doing all the ROTC stuff what was your actual academic major?
Chemistry, so it was basically a Bachelor of Arts and I was always on the science side of the
equation, naval science was there, chemistry was there so that's where my focus was on the
campus.
When you become a Naval Officer, then you normally have some kind of specialization or
area, did you pick that or was it picked for you?
[8:15] That was probably the first earmark into some extensive training. So I graduated in that
May ‘65 timeframe and then went to nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare school. I was in
Philadelphia, very intensive and that, when you come out you are certified as what they call a
Damage Control Assistant so it's very, very extensive program for several months I remember
going to that Philadelphia shipyard, so when you come out of it you now are an ensign but
you’re beginning your specialization if you will, so when you go aboard a ship it isn't just having
an ensign degree--I mean an ensign rank--but you could be going to things like main propulsion
�assistant, you could go to that kind of training. And then you get into more line operation
training, which I can talk about in a minute. So that was the first, I would say, and that left a lot
of memories which I still have today because that was an extremely close enough program with
simulated exercises that you would have a taste forever of what a casualty situation or collateral
damage might look like.
What were some of the exercises or things that you did in that first training?
Two or three of them that come to light. First, well, there’s a lot of fire training, so they would
light fires and you would have to figure a way to get them out and so they might be class A,
class B, class C fires some of them are oil generated electrical generated but these were not
small fires these were large fires that you had to actually go in, because ships might offer a
Class Alpha, Bravo, or Class Charlie fire so you were immersed in that so that was the first thing
is what does a 10-15 foot flame really look like and how do you get in there to take care of it.
And there are different techniques. But they also had an exercise of smoke training and that is
one that is extremely difficult. So you’re actually in a compartment that’s totally sealed and you
have your what is known as and I still think today they know as OBAs or Oxygen Breathing
Apparatus where you’re put with a canister, and it’s okay with your canister on, but then they rip
your canister off and they ask you to get out. And there’s certain things you learn about smoke
and I do remember that one completely to this day of actually trying to walk down several decks
and crawling through spaces. Now, they did have people in there to take care of you if you
needed it, but that was an exercise that of how do you get out of a smoke-filled compartment.
[11:23] Did you do gas drills and things like that too for tear gas or things like that?
Oh yeah, so you had a chance to cry some, cry none so this is where you are now exposed to
some of this you are also exposed to learning how to give yourself shots, which you had to have
so you were carrying these at the same time. And then another exercise that I do remember
going through was a potential drowning exercise so they actually had a hull in there and they
would submerge it and then you were placed in the middle of it and had to figure out how to get
out of it through compartments. Still remember that exercise to this day.
And then what about the nuclear side of things? Were you preparing for a nuclear attack
or for, say, leaks on a ship that was nuclear powered?
Probably more on the biological warfare side than nuclear. Nuclear was basically if you were in
a scenario where a nuclear attack was underway you had to wash down the ship and do some
other things. So it was more of “yes this could happen” but then you had to be self-contained,
but not only that, is radiation. So you were exposed to that yes, we did have tags and looked at
what that would mean, but we also saw at that time, which today you see carried on all these
years later, is biological warfare which is still probably one, if not the, most lethal ways. We were
given way back then videos of where biological warfare had actually taken place, and you can’t
recreate those scenes but I do remember looking at how a biological warfare could actually take
place and it was done fascinating by using an aircraft at very high altitudes dropping it into the
�air stream, and they used a particle sensitivity and then put the plates on the back of telephone
poles. You could actually go out and figure out with one airplane dropping this and seeing where
the air streams would take it and then seeing what the concentration was on the back of plates.
That was so many years ago so you just see the sophistication, I can't even describe it today,
but that to me was fairly sophisticated and alerting us to the fact of this could come a nuclear
attack it could come, we were more concerned about biological at that time because, not so
much to the ship but to a country, like taking out feedstocks, contaminating water. Then, of
course, the other ones were basically what you might see as a casualty drill aboard a ship either
from a fire, from smoke, or from water being brought on board by a compartment so you got
kind of a very intensified hands-on capability as you walked out of that.
[14:38] Now was this school the only one you did before you went to your first ship?
Yes
So what’s your first actual assignment?
When you leave, I left North Carolina actually found the document while I was getting through
some of the files and I wondered how I arrived there so i actually put “I would like to have the
opportunity to go on a FRAM II Destroyer” so I actually wondered myself how I wound up there
but there it was as I left Carolina there it was, so that's what I went on board. That ship was
home ported in Norfolk.
Okay now which ship was this specifically?
DD 724 USS Laffey
And you have an idea about when that was built? Was that a post WWII ship?
No most of these ships I was on, including the Neches which we’ll talk about, these were older
ships, so they had been around, and it's this really good surface destroyer but what was
interesting about this, so I remember leaving the school and then going, so I came aboard the
Laffey right away in September of ‘65, so it was right after that school which was for the summer
of 65, and there I went. So I was kinda like transported, the ship was not homeported it was
already doing its exercises in the Indian Ocean, and the Red Sea.
And how did they get you out to the ship?
Very interesting, so I was wondering the same thing. I was wondering whether I was gonna pick
it up in a port or how I was gonna do this. I actually was helicoptered in. I do remember that
because the seas at that time were about 15 ft, and that was a memorable opportunity to be
dropped in by a helicopter on top of a destroyer while you’re underway doing exercise drills so I
do remember that.
�[16:38] And you say the sea is 15 feet so you have like 15 foot high waves essentially, so
the ship is going up and down.
I remember at the time a little bit about the exercises so I think at this time, might have been the
Roosevelt, that name comes back to me, but it was plane guarding. So one of the exercises for
destroyers is--besides combatant and firepower--is to plane guard. So you would be in
formation with other ships and exercises and they would be doing flight operations and you
would be plane guarding, so that if there was in fact a plane with an overboard drill or casualty
you would peel off and do a rescue. So that was one of the, I remember, one of the task force
operations that was originally part of that. So these are usually deployments that last for 6 to 9
months unless you were asked to stay on. But I knew going in is that I was one of the overcomplemented ensigns, so they have a certain amount of deployment of officers and enlisted
people and I remember when I went aboard that i was on the over complements, I always
wondered about that, over complemented meant you were one above the number. I never really
got to figure out why that happened but I guess they anticipated somebody leaving, but there
was no room so instead of joining officers’ quarters, I do remember joining chiefs’ quarters. So
this was a fascinating opportunity when I first came aboard, that does usually not happen so I
had the opportunity to really see the senior enlisted side which was the chiefs. That was an
interesting experience for me because usually everybody--you’re a boot ensign--and everybody
wonders to know whether you’re gonna make it or not, and you're really really green, and I was
in many many areas, but I was blessed with the opportunity of having some really senior people
there that began to mold and shape a little bit of that for a short period of time.
[18:50] So you arrive on the ship then, and you mention there’s no room for you in the
officers’ quarters so you join the petty officers instead. In general, how are you treated,
or what kind of reception do you get when you come onto the ship?
Yeah I remember that too, it basically all now comes to fruition. All the training world is not
gonna give you this, you’re now there and have to perform. I do remember struggling, seas
were just really really difficult, you had to get your sea legs and that took forever. I remember, I
mean everybody goes through it but it takes weeks to get your sea legs and so I had to go
through that period, but yet also stand all the watches and do everything you're supposed to do
and I do remember those struggle days and people wondering, as they look at you and they
know your struggling, “what are you gonna be like in the next couple of weeks after all this sea
legs and you get a little bit more?” So very very challenging time to really sort of, now all of a
sudden you are who you have been trained to be, now reality sets in.
Did anybody try to help you or coach you or do they leave you to your own devices?
A couple of the junior officers were there, and I do remember a few of them, but basically you're
on your own.
[20:30] What actual duties did you have then, on the Laffey, what were you doing for
them?
�Well I do remember one specific training that I, again you would not actually take an officer of
the deck but you could become a quarterdeck watch officer. So I was certified during this
timeframe as a quarterdeck watch officer. So you would be part of four on-four off, or four oneight off, whatever the exercise required, meaning four hours on and eight hours off so you’d be
continually doing this and then you would be with the officer of the deck and a quarterdeck
officer and those requirements would be up on the bridge.
So you’re up on the bridge, you’re simply there. Did you have any-Sightings? Yep, you’ve got people as lookouts on the sides of ships, that was a specific area
first for officers to be acquainted with what the bride duties really were and so some of those
officers might be in supply, they would not be part of this, now you’re considered part of the “line
duties”. That was the first piece that I do remember going through and then takes awhile to get
certified but then you are now a quarterdeck watch officer, and you’ve got other officers--junior
ones--that might be main propulsion assistants whose requirements are down inside the ship,
but they had a group of us that were now being exposed to how ships really maneuver, what the
exercises are, because you can see what’s going on.
[22:17] As far as you can tell or put together, what was your ship actually doing, or what
was the task force you were with actually doing at that point?
Again, a little bit of this is foggy, I get a little better with the next level but it was because I was
getting my legs and everything else, I was not as--what shall we say--cognizant of what these
exercises were. There were a number of ships that you were just not in this by your own. I do
remember the carrier there, I do remember other destroyers and other ships so there would be
a lot of this information. So there are several ways that you would have a task force group
operating and so we’d have a carrier and then would have certain ships on the outside for one
exercise I remember, it’s called a bent line screen which is where you have a carrier in the
middle and you have certain ships that are on the outside and a bend line screen for protection.
So all these were different types of exercises in formation. That’s what I remember first because
when i left the ship and then went into this next service area that became very helpful because
you think when you’re just out there you’re by yourself, you’re doing it oh no no no. You’re given
orders to do this in formation and so regardless of what those water conditions are you have to
be 2000 yards directly behind at this end. So I would watch the officers of the deck try to
maneuver these ships to stay in these formations and you could see them on the radar screen.
You wanna stay as tight in this type of formation so they would expose you to different
formations to protect and to also be on assault if needed so it was several different roles but this
was part of these exercises that were coming from the fleet.
[24:14] A Destroyer is a relatively small ship, did it help you to orient yourself to what the
Navy does, because you were on something where you could see all these different
dimensions?
�I would say yes because even though I was there for a short period of time it gave me the
opportunity to see a ship in action and all the component parts and how they all flow. Yes,
they’re small, they’re hundreds of feet, they’re not 500 and above, these are small vessels. They
can speed at a significant number of knots and they do a lot of warfare, so they’re very
electronically, well I’m thinking ahead to the type of electronics we had, but they had probably
the most up to date fire control systems, so that if you were being attacked by an aircraft you
could look at the fire control systems, they had five-inch 38 mounts and other things. You had a
chance to see the armament on the ship, you had a chance to see what it was like to maneuver
in formation, you could see all these different departments aboard a ship, you could see the
importance of the Chiefs and the warrant officers, they’re our most senior, they spent years in
the service, and then you got somebody like ourselves who are here for the first time, yet you
were assigned to different divisions and things like that. It was the first chance to be a part of
enlisted with warrant officers to see how that whole division--because there were a number of
divisions on a ship--would actually come together. But it was more for me an opportunity to soak
in before I actually contributed.
[26:02] How long did you spend on the Laffey?
I was there from September of 65 to March of 66 with one important school that happened in
between. After moving through, becoming a Quarterdeck Watch Officer I then had the chance to
go to school for Officer of the Deck OOD tactics, that’s now where the opportunity will be to train
to actually take over the ship from the captain when he is not actually on the deck. There are a
number of people who are training, so I went to that school. OOD tactics school ended in
December of 65, so while I was aboard the Laffey, a short period but I did get that training. As
soon as I had that training, this complement of officers and shake-ups sort of came and then
the question was where do you wanna go? I didn’t answer the question, I just said I didn’t look
at this from a sensitivity with what was brewing in Asia at the time, I had just said wherever I can
serve.
[27:19] So the idea was that this was--on the Laffey--that was just a temporary
assignment to give you--literally your sea legs. Now where did you do your Officer of the
Deck Training?
I’m trying to remember and I can’t, it just doesn’t come.
[27:31] Was it back in the US or was it still with a fleet?
They did these in Europe too, at some of the ports. It just doesn’t come to me, but it did at the
time give you the fact that “wow there’s something more here coming” so now you have the
DCA, the Quarterdeck Watch Officer, the OOD, so you’re becoming to have a set of
complementary skills that can be used. That’s the best way to package--in a very short time
frame, because we’re not even a year out of graduation and now, all of a sudden I have this.
That’s what I remember is I have a package now and then when the question is where, that's
�when the orders came back “You’re gonna go from the East Coast to the West coast” and that’s
when the change happened.
[28:25] While you were with the Laffey, do you remember if you ever went into port at
anyplace or did you stay at sea the whole time.
Well there is an interesting note here that I met my wife, who went to North Carolina for the
same time I did, but I never met her. So I met her when the Laffey was ported in Norfolk. She
was from Virginia Beach and actually taught school there. That was the first time that I had met
her, it was aboard the Laffey while we were either running in or running out for a short period of
time.
So you went back to your home port. Did you stop in any overseas ports that you can
recall or just back in Norfolk?
I remember one where we had a degree of difficulty entering a port and actually had a small
collision and it’s just all part of the background there, but I do remember that. It just happened
and you were not--shall we say--put into a scenario where you couldn’t steam, you couldn’t do
this, but I do remember the beginnings of what something might look like in terms of real action,
but this was not under any course. East Coast was all preparation training for what was going to
take place. When I left, I didn’t know I was going to the Neches which is AO-47, homeported in
Hunter’s Point. But I had to go to school again, so now we go to the next school, which is Cargo
Fuel Oil Handling. That was intensive training on how you move fuel.
Where did you do this?
That was in San Diego. The ship was in Hunter’s Point of San Francisco, but I do remember
going. I went to that Cargo Fuel Oil Handling, or Petroleum school for several months in the
spring of 1966.
[30:51] What did that school consist of?
Well, coupled with, you can see now with the background with chemical and biological warfare,
you’re sitting on something that could explode easily. So you have to learn the types of fuel,
there’s JP-5, JP-4, which are basically aviation fuels. Most of it is bunker fuel or what the ships
use, and you were exposed to all of that. You were exposed to how to keep that fuel clean, and
I didn’t realize the importance of that--I can share a story about that in a minute. You’re exposed
again, to saltwater right? So you can think where sediment saltwater gets involved in these
fuels. So you’ve gotta know what they are and then you have to know how to handle them, and
that means pumping. All these fuels that we’re describing are on the oiler and are pumped to
various ships as they come alongside. I’d never been a part of that, and seeing that operation.
But then you have to realize you have to know flammability, you have to know safety, you have
�to know how to keep it on spec, and you have to know how to move it. Then you also have to
know the crew that you’re going to be with as part of the deckhands to move that fuel, so that
was a lot. But, I came out of school and that’s now what I came aboard as. They had to have
one of those aboard the ship, so that's what I was trained in. Now all of a sudden I’m not looking
at anybody else, I’m looking at myself, because now I have that training that that ship required.
[32:52] When you were doing this school, would they take you out to sea to practice
refueling and things like that or did you stay in the harbor?
Probably in the harbor, but they have so many videos now that they would use in class to show,
you know I showed you one recently of what was taken of the Neches, it’s now been
decommissioned and put to bed, but you could get these so there was a lot of these classes
were done with videos. But the things that I do remember from that is that the ship that I was
going to go aboard, all these valves had to be cranked by hand. The Neches is one of the oldest
but most reliable oilers that the fleet had. A lot of them now move into hydraulics and you just sit
and move them, no these had to be moved by hand. I remember asking myself “holy cow, am I
gonna remember to turn the right valves on and the right valves off?” That’s all I remember out
of that one, but I do remember that question living with me. And then to do it in seas and all that
sort of stuff, wow. And I do remember the underway replenishment with the Laffey, doing a few
of these, but never from the supply side. Most of the time you wouldn’t appreciate other than the
lines come over, you take, you leave. Now all of a sudden, I’m looking at it through a different
lens, like what’s all the preparation that has to go on before that ship comes alongside. And they
could come along both sides at the same time so all of this is like, I have no idea what I’m
gonna experience. You can see these by some of the videos that they were shooting in some of
the sequences. So you could see those operations coming full circle pretty quick.
Where and when do you join the Neches?
I joined it in San Francisco in that spring right away, that March timeframe that I went to school.
I went to school right there and came right back and then it was deployed.
[35:13] Then you sailed with it out from San Francisco, and where were you going?
We were going to, what they call, the South China Sea, Gulf of Tonkin, Yankee Station. All that
are familiar terms to many, unfamiliar to me at the time, but we knew what we were going to do.
We were, of course, all 7th fleet operations which were designated into the South China Sea.
Our home port was Subic Bay, very interesting homeport. Just to add to that, we were part of
what they call a task force. You have the 7th fleet but then they had different task forces
underneath it. This task force was with underway replenishment group. We were an oiler but
you also needed to have AEs which were ammunition ships and you have to have supply ships,
so they were out there too. We were then, where do we get our fuel, and that was from Subic
Bay. That was a steaming couple of days from Subic Bay in the Philippines out into the South
China Sea, so that was what was ahead of us.
�[36:37] When you went out the first time did you stop off at Subic Bay first, and then go
on? Describe a little bit the setup at Subic Bay or what was there and what went on there.
The biggest experience I could ever have is in this new role, so here I am, First Cargo Officer
and a young ensign coming aboard to take on this fuel. So we go into Subic Bay and you take
yourself down to where the depot is, the fuel depot, and you send your lines across and you
start taking on fuel. I start taking on fuel, and we have a small lab, very unsophisticated at the
time, but to take on bunker fuel you basically look for sediment. This fuel starts coming onboard,
these are very deep tanks, 30-foot tanks. We’ve got several mains, ones were just at the bow of
the ship, you had two up there, that was number one, number two through 8 or 9 all had center
tanks and two wing tanks. So we started taking on this fuel and I started noticing, cause you’d
spin these in centrifuges, I was picking up rust. I didn’t think too much about it, maybe it’ll
percolate through. It didn’t percolate. So I took this up to the captain. I remember saying
“Captain, I just wanna let you know something. This is what your fuel looks like.” He couldn’t
believe it, I couldn’t believe it. We shut it down and we pumped it back. All I was doing was what
that school had just told me to do. I always wondered why. I got into a little bit of well they’re
gonna test the young ensigns, this is real time. Here, you know he thinks everything’s hunkydory and you’re over there and no it wasn’t hunky-dory at all. So the first fuel that I took on
board, we were able to catch and that experience, every time I came back in I got the best
treatment in this world. So to this day I don’t know whether they were testing myself and the
captain or whether the captain was aware and we’re just gonna go do this. But that's the livest
training you can ever imagine.
[39:27] You’re making it sound as if you were sort of the one officer it was on that ship
whose job it was to do this.
We had a chief and we had a crew. The chief was there, of course, with me, but we were
starting to catch this and wondered. So it wasn’t just me catching it, but it was our responsibility
to take the fuel on. When everybody would go on leave or go offship for a while, no. I’d stay on
the ship almost all the time, because you’re taking back on fuel. I didn’t get a whole lot of time in
Subic Bay, because we’re always just very impactful, taking on fuel. It’s certainly, with this group
of, and really the warrant officer and myself, looking at this fuel and saying “hey this is not
acceptable fuel to take.”
Part of what I was asking is there are not other officers on this ship with the same
responsibilities that you rotate with. So it really is just you, and you’re just a new guy
coming on there and okay that’s your job. But in the meantime you don’t get to, say,
enjoy as much of Subic Bay.
Oh no, no. That was the first time. You have to load up cause you’re using fuel to steam across
the Pacific and you get a chance. I have in the book here that was for this tour, you can see
actually where the ship went, but you now know the routine, well I didn’t know the routine yet, I
just knew when we were out of fuel and supplies, we had to go back into Subic Bay. That’s
where you were gonna get the supplies. Then you had to steam for a few days out into this 700,
�900 mile big Sea to get you to your station. I hadn’t done that yet, because we had to take on all
the fuel and all the supplies.I had not yet gone underway with any underway replenishments to
know what that was like, but I now knew this was gonna be the routine for taking on fuel.
So you’ve done that and now you head out for the South China Sea, explain a little bit for
an outside audience what Yankee Station was.
[41:43] Yankee Station was an area in the Gulf of Tonkin in the South China Sea. They actually
had two stations. Totally unfamiliar with what they called Dixie station which was in the South
China Sea, so this is in the North part. So this, I presume--and I did a little bit more researching,
is that they would have several groups. You needed to have two or three carriers at all times, so
there would be two or three carriers in this area, and our primary job was to refuel--usually at
night, so most of these operations were done at night. Some were done during the day, but that
was to primarily keep as much of the carrier formations. We are further enough away except for
one time, being fired upon. You usually are far enough away until storms et cetera get you in
close, and I do remember that one time. But these carriers are the ones that were providing the
flights and that’s where the Navy would go in with the aircraft. We were carrying JP5, it’s
primarily kerosene, so besides sediment and bunker fuel, the other big problem is saltwater in
kerosene. So you had to test all the time and you couldn’t leave the vents open. Lots of times
you would want to, you could only open those vents when there was no rain, when the seas
were not coming over the fo'c'sle. You had to watch what you were doing, so you’re always
there wanting to make sure that you wouldn’t have built up flame vapors in these, but you also
wouldn’t have them during the seas. That’s where your deck hands would be out there ensuring
at all times that you had the right ventilation system.
Yankee station was an area that we were a task force as a part of the 7th fleet operations, but
we could not give any orders. We’re subject to those that are in the 7th fleet that would then
start to say “okay, carriers X, Y, and Z: they need to be refueled. You’ve got destroyers, you’ve
got the Canberra, I remember a few of the larger surface vessels being in there. I think, I did a
little bit more research, there were about 40 Navy craft during this timeframe that were either in
the Yankee station or Dixie station, cause each of those would have two or three carriers, and a
number of destroyers. I was exposed to some ships while we were there that we can get into
that I’d never ever seen before, because they’re the smaller ones. So we arrived in this Yankee
Station as part of a task force, and then we would be called into formation by the superior officer
who was in charge of those operations, which weren't us.
[44:59] So, big picture, the carriers are there providing support for troops on the ground,
or striking targets in North Vietnam, the base where the aircraft are conducting military
operations and then you’re there to keep everybody fueled.
Right, there were some other ships in there, and there were some guided missiles, and I can
talk about a little bit of a couple of ships I had never ever seen before that we were actually able
to refuel that were actually providing a lot of that firepower. Now let's go back to the Laffey, you
had the destroyers in there and they’re doing the same things now that we’re actually in war. So
that training that I had on the Neches going back to the Laffey, I now saw both sides of the
�equation. They may be firing at certain times, they would go in closer and maybe provide
firepower into the coastline and then the air wings would take off and go in and provide
additional strafing runs into the country, I can see that, but I can’t speak to what actual firepower
destroyers were giving, they would be doing that.
A cruiser now and then, the big boys were around--not many of them. You would have that and
then you would have others. They’re amphib vessels. You’ve got cruisers you've got destroyers,
you've got amphibs, you’ve got carriers, you’ve got minesweeps, and you get river forces, so
you could probably break down at least seven to ten task force groups. So if you can imagine
the war now having 7th fleet operations, but 8-10 task forces, and how do they all come
together. I never appreciated that actually until you asked me to go back and do a little
research, and when I saw it, it was like how and where did those plans come from, and we
would sometimes ask those same questions.
[47:02] From your perspective onboard the ship, if you have to refuel, say, an aircraft
carrier, how do you do that? What’s your job?
There were a few that were pretty special in this, so I listed some of the carriers that we
actually--I think the ones that I remember, there are two or three that I remember specifically. I
do remember the Kitty Hawk, that was CBE 63. That was one of the first carriers brought into
Yankee Station. Another big one, number two in this, was the Ticonderoga. These are the first
responses. This was I think CB 11. That was an Essex Class, the Kitty Hawk was a Kitty Hawk
Class, and then the third one, which was the only one we ever saw, was the Enterprise Class,
which was the USS Enterprise and nuclear, only one. I do remember that coming alongside,
and here we are at a 500 foot Oiler, steaming along. You had to be given orders on the speed,
wind direction. Don’t forget, at any one time they might be flying, so this was not “let’s pick the
smoothest” no you had to pick, get a certain amount of headwind off the front of that aircraft
carrier so they could launch planes. You’d probably be doing this in the night. Then all of a
sudden, how does a USS Enterprise come along close. I was so impressed with the ship
handling of these care. So if you can picture, our operations were on the deck. So up in the front
you’ve got the bow and you’ve got where the conning tower is for the oiler, and you’ve got the
bridge and all that in communications and that sits up front. Then you go back and you get all
this massive amount of tankage, and then you’ve got the stern. So we’re right in the middle on
the deck. They have the ability to steam in, so you’d be steaming, you had to steam at probably
a minimum of 12 knots, but it wouldn’t take them forever, they were not steaming at 13--it would
take hours to catch up--they’d be steaming at 25 and know when to shut down. Just go into
neutral, and then go in reverse and slow those engines down. It was the most impressive, and
then you would look out: one deck, two decks, three decks, four decks, five decks, six decks,
seven decks, eight decks. Then you realized, even though you thought you were on a big ship,
my goodness gracious, that was the Enterprise. The operations for the carriers always
concerned me, because you’ve got a lot of water that’s bouncing off that hull, and it would all
wash back on this. We always practice Man Overboard drills, because besides the fact with a
life preserver, getting a chance to get washed overboard was pretty easy. There was damage
control and, really where all the operations were. You could get inside on the deck in the area
where you could have some safety, but for the most part you’re going around, turning bowels.
�[50:46] The interesting piece in doing that is that wasn’t the first ship that was toward the end.
You then had to figure out all of this: how do you get these hoses over to the other side, they
would always take their fuel, basically in the floor of the ship and the aft of the ship. It wasn’t just
one, you have to send several lines aboard. Then you have to look at are you taking AB gas in
addition to JP5. Ships like the Kitty Hawk would take bunker fuel to run on and then they want
their AB gas, and you’d have to make sure, again, all those samples of all those fuels are right
and then you’d have to send over. We’d shoot lines over so that was it with a rubberized kind of
arrow, and it would go over. And we’d shoot these and there would be a line attached so then
the line would come across, then you’d have to have, on both sides now, the ability to put up a
fuel line and run it across. So this is like “can you hit the mark in the middle of the night and do
all this stuff?” So we got guys that were really deck hands that were really good. They loved
that. They loved the ability to go shoot at one of these big carriers. We tried to lighten it up, but
you could see the seriousness of all of it. We also would take on destroyers. To the portside
we’d go on to the starboard side. The dual operations were extremely difficult because now
you’ve got four lines out. The most difficult thing is the pressure. These things are stoke with a
lot of pressure and if they're not clamped on right, you’re gonna paint somebody black. That
happened, not so much with us, but you’ll see ships that had a good dose of bunker fuel. So
that was one of the issues. They maintained big pressure hoses and then once that fuel was
aboard, you had to drain then right, and then bring them back right, and not drop a whole lot of
this stuff into the water or on the board or side of ships, and make it as clean an operation.
[53:03] For me, the first couple of times was just watching it happen. Thank goodness we had a
great chief and great deckhands because they’d done this before, I hadn’t done any of this
before, I got better as the replenishments went underway.
Did you do any of the hands-on stuff yourself, would you get down and use the valves at
all, do what they were doing?
Oh for sure, cause you always wanted to participate, but I didn’t wanna take over somebody
else’s respect. My job is I would always work with the chief, and I do remember that, with a
sheet of paper to trace the lines because I just mentioned we have all these tanks, which one’s
being drained at what time? I would kind of do a chalkboard thing and walk around to make sure
we’re actually pumping from that and the pressure’s right. I was always there to trace. Then the
question is “what happens when one tank is empty and then you have to shift to another tank?”
Just to give people perspective, these ships, when loaded with fuel, they would hold, the
Neches--by the way is the most decorated fleet tanker in US Navy history. It was commissioned
in 1942 and went to rest in 1970. Most decorated--I did not know that till I did some research. It
contained the following characteristics. It was what they call a Mattaponi class oiler. There were
several classes of oilers like classes of aircraft carriers. Named for the Neches river in Texas,
242 officers and enlisted, so it had a fairly large complement. Displacement 22,445 tons so it's a
fairly significant size ship, 520 feet in length. Still small compared to a carrier, but larger than
most of the other destroyers and everything else. Beam 68 feet, flank speed 16 knots. Now one
of the reasons were reliability, single screw, but a sitting duck. But the most reliable you’d ever
see. And that’s why this was, probably weathered so many different campaigns for the Navy. I
do remember that, maneuverability. We did all kinds of Man Overboard drills and competed with
�one another on the deck and tried to do different formations. But the final disposition was sold
for scrapping in December of 73. It took on a lot of fuel, so it would be over 35 feet in draft, fully
loaded. When all the fuel was gone, we would offload all that fuel, we just come up like a
floating top. So now all of a sudden you’re riding 10 feet versus over 30. Very interesting, right?
You get a chance to ride in many different feelings and perspectives, we would stay out for
every time for probably 30 plus days. In that timeframe, over 30 days, we would do, on average,
probably 30 to 35 replenishment, and then we’re emptying and back.
[57:00] While you’re out on duty, did you have to ride through any typhoons or bad
storms?
Yeah, I remember some well over 20, 25 feet. Which today is, if you watch some of these
fishing, that’s nothing today. But it is when you’re doing replenishments and being told what
formations. When we weren’t doing that during the day, you would get replenishments as well.
Those were for the major ships, but as time passed, cause we did this month after month after
month and then going back to Subic Bay, we’d be called out, even though it would take you’d go
back in after 30 days from probably one to two, so that’s why my time was limited. So while they
all get a good meal, every once and awhile I could sneak off the officers’ quarters and do, but
Subic Bay is a tough area, so even though you look at it at user-friendly, it was a very different
time. That was very memorable as well as some of the impressions that I was giving. The
Filipinos in the Navy were just great because a lot of those were stewards on board. I remember
being taught how to eat Gilly Gilly which is interesting pieces of rice and fish and Anissa. It was
the culture side of this started. All of a sudden, you got all different people with all different
backgrounds, all in this thing. Not quite sure why we’re here, what we’re doing. The routine
sorta helped, so for me “okay, now we’re done, now we go back.” Every once in awhile, we’d be
called back before that, two days. Alright, well let the first part of the crew off for one night, and
another off, let some off two nights. We’d get called back out because of the need. We were
prime time for this, at least in the northern part. Then we had a chance to even go in further as
the months progressed. That became a routine that was helpful to me. If we could perfect that
routine, which had its degrees of difficulty, I don’t ever remember exactly how many but for the
months we were out there you can start adding them up and start looking at the types of vessels
and then you realize how much fuel we actually, you know.
[59:24] What were the dates of your service on the Neches?
I came aboard in March-April of 66 and their tour came back in--actually released in June of 67
Over the course of that time, does most of the crew and ship’s complement remain the
same? (Christopher nods his head) So it’s not like the army where everybody is going in
and out on their own one year calendars and cycles. So you have pretty much the same
group of people that you’re working with the whole time.
I did receive a spot promotion in December of 66, while there from ensign to Lieutenant JG.
�What impression did you have of the other officers? The captain or the ones you actually
worked with?
Some I remember very closely because I worked with them. Others, like on the supply we had
people that would handle that side, I wasn’t quite as close with, but you had a close-knit
because besides refueling, I also stood in as an officer of the deck. So now all of a sudden, not
only am I doing the cargo but I’m also.. Now when the replenishments would come, I would
come off the deck and an officer would come up. I do remember those days very well, from ship
handling as well. From quarterdeck, then going to the officer of the deck, then from cargo field
school, now I also was an officer. Actually, that’s almost like a job in itself because you would be
on for four hours at a time and then off depending upon what. But sleep: you had to have a
routine because, just picture you were up early in the morning standing your duty and by the
way that night we’re doing underway replenishments for most of the night, so a little sleep
deprivation every once in awhile, but you just learned to live through it. We were all young back
then so we don’t worry about stuff like that, but I do remember juxtapositioning both those two.
[1:01:49] What was the captain like?
Captain Millar, great guy. Most oilers take on what they call “four stripers” as full captains so
they rotate. He had both line duty, also shore duty, and he was very well experienced. He set
the very right temperament and I can’t, we should talk about temperament a lot. It’s very difficult
when you’re in 90+ degrees with 90% humidity to look your best, but you also didn’t wanna look
like you didn’t care to be in the Navy. It was this balance, and he set a very good one. He also
was very congenial, I do remember him as expecting, if he gave an order, for you to carry it out
but he wasn’t micromanaging you, which in this case: absolutely you don’t want. Micromanaging
this kind of operation-it’s the reliance on how everyone fits together. He did, I remember, put us
through some good, challenging drills together. Those were good. There were a couple of ship
handlers that definitely, among, there was a crew of us that could do many of this, because he
had an executive officer and administrative officer. So you’ve got a number of those that are
very well experienced and a crew of lieutenant JGs and lieutenants that have, cause don’t forget
you’ve got armament, you’ve got people who have this capability too. The shiphandlers were
good, I grew into being a better one, I wasn’t terribly good because--question: we dropped these
big nothing more than wooden crates over the side and that would be all hands on deck Man
Overboard. [1:03:45] And you would be challenged to be the first one in the shortest time frame
to turn the ship around and bring it alongside. Number of ways to do that, and that was a
competition I do remember that. I remember not coming in first, I remember not coming in last. I
learned a lot from those types of “okay we’ll have all the OODs up on the deck here” and you
would assume those if you just don’t walk off. Every watch you go up to be relieved, so there
was a time frame 15 minutes before the watch actually happened where they would tell you to
sea conditions: anything that’s happening in formation, what to expect in the next 24 hours, all
the sensitive radar. You would get that total picture, so you don’t just walk up and take over.
Then you’d have to salute and say “I assume the deck” and then the question is you can
assume the deck and the con, which is the conning tower too. So there’s two pieces to that.
Then if you are assuming the deck and the con the person that you have to--there are a certain
�set of orders that the captain knows before he goes to take rest, that if you alleviate any of that
or change any of that, you have to call him for that change. I remember doing that a few times,
but you would want that captain to try to get as much rest as possible because now it isn’t just
me. Think about all the other operations that he has to be sensitive for too. But we had some
very very good times on board. We had spent Christmas at sea and shuttle Christmas trees and
take back brass. Take mail out and shuttle people around, so it was a very lively time to do a lot
of different things.
[1:05:31] Now, did the routine kind of wear on people after a while? If you get to the end
of that 30 days, is everyone kind of getting crazy?
Well not for the first time, not for the second time, but if you keep doing these month after
month. We actually had to go down for a little bit because some of the gun mounts. So we had
to actually go back in Japan for a very short period of time to get some work done so that’s all
scheduled. No question, it’s wearing. Most of those people, again the Neches has more than
one deployment, I was not part of the other deployment. If you were aboard that ship and doing
deployments one, two, and three, yeah, you could see that. There was a homesickness that
started for some of those sailors that had been on not one not two but maybe additional tours of
duty because they continued. It had a few more years left after but this was in phase two of the
conflict so there was a discrete number of operations that they were held but i think i looked on
and they were part of several of these, so that’s where the homesickness came. Tired, physical
tiredness yes. Water, hydration, water was almost a premium as well, fresh water.
[1:06:56] Did you have any kind of desalination equipment on the ship? Could you
process seawater or did you just have to fill up at Subic Bay (Christopher nods) So did you
have to take showers in saltwater or things like that on those ships?
No but I remember having to talk about putting a ship on water rations and one of them was for
a period of time when we actually were moving christmas trees around. Whoever gave that
order we thought “if you’re going do into some of these” and it gets into some of these ships that
I can describe a few of them that couldn’t come out all the way into formation because they
were craft that were small like mine sweeps. Mine sweeps you’re not gonna pull off of the
coastline so we actually had to get in and the hospital ships, they were in, so we actually had to
figure out how to maneuver in and provide support. And then we had a few very unique ships,
one of which I don’t think I ever saw again. They call them LSMRs, Landing Ship Missile
Rockets which looked like a cut off destroyer and they would come out in it, you would never
see those. They were always under cover, inside in the Delta. They took on much less draft. So
you get a chance to see the full Navy here and experience, so physical fatigue with hydration,
heat, and humidity. That is what took a big count.
[1:08:37] You mentioned at one point that when you go ashore, there was at least one
occasion when you got fired upon?
Actually yes. I remember it was terrible storms and we were going up and down the coast, a
little close, and have fired across the bow. They knew who we were so they just decided to give
�us a little warning. They knew. So it was like “don’t come any closer.” When you’re on these
lines and in these stations, it’s difficult with weather and rain. Clouds would definitely affect
some of the radar. You knew you were in there, and you would be up near Hanoi or something
like that but it would be like “but how close are we really?” and stuff like that. That’s the only
time I do remember, but it’s interesting to talk about that for a minute. We did a number of
exercises with our fire control. They would take, just to see if anybody actually did fire. These
were five inch 38s, but never had the right fire control systems. I do remember a couple of times
when they would put a sortie in over the course of the water and see if you could pick it up on
radar and track it and at times that aircraft was behind us before that five inch 38 would ever
track which tells you that if anybody had really decided you could take, because the systems
were so old that they had never put in the new because basically its Korean and World War Two
equipment that's being used.
[1:10:26] And you’ve got an oiler which is not primarily a combat ship. You’ve got some,
essentially had aircraft guns on there, but you’re not really supposed to be doing a whole
lot of fighting so they don’t have the same kind of equipment they’re gonna have on a
destroyer or something like that.
From a damage control standpoint, you always wanted to know what you could provide and that
always left me like “you’re probably not going to be able to do much.” That’s not the role but you
have to have something if somebody came out from the coastline at any point in time of a
smaller vessel, because most of the vessels that were there, a lot of fishing vessels. They’d
always play games with us in the middle of the night. Try to look like we were running them
over. They thought if they could, you could see them with their lights on. There’d be these small
fishing fleets and they’d come out. They’d try to run across the bow of the ship as close as they
could and it was always like “I presume we’re not hitting any one of these.” And the reason why
they would do that, they thought the fishing would be better if they could get as close to that.
There was a whole lot of different things. I could see these and like nothing you could do about
them. There was always this in the night life that’s going on out there like “who are they? What
are they doing?” and it’s like “oh, it’s the fishing fleets” and they’d come out and you would see
these. That’s how close to shore some of the exercises were.
[1:11:58] Did you go into any ports other than Subic Bay?
Danang had a port in there and there were hospital ships and that’s the first time. Again, it’s
very difficult to get any maneuver in these, but the hospital ships would be stationed in there,
because that’s where they would take the people that had suffered significant injuries. That
would be the only one where I would say that we probably made the foremost entrypoint. The
other ones, we would get as close to shore as we could and then the mine sweeps would come
out and the others. We had smaller replenishment gear we could actually use for that.
But you’re not going ashore yourself in these places. You mentioned going to Japan, did
you get to go ashore there?
�I did, again a memorable experience. We were there for a short period of time and they always
wanted officers that would be willing to be part of the military police, so I got a chance to be
military police. That was another set of experiences because at that time, you can imagine,
people had a memory of American ships. At that time you had Yokosuka, Yokohama, those
were a lot of where the US had significant bases that could do repairs. You also had a
population that wasn’t terribly excited to see the US Navy. So military police had the opportunity
to get in and see some of the evening altercations and there were several, I do remember
those.
[1:13:52] At this point, was there sort of anti-war activism, or just general hostilities
between sailors and locals. A lot of people talk about Japan as being a generally
welcoming place, or they behave pretty well.
It was, to be very honest it was very light in terms of the protesting. It was more of, I would say,
our stirring up the locals than it was the locals stirring us up. There was some of that but you
could deal with this. It was really our behavior. You’re dealing now with, it wasn’t just us,
because you had other ships underneath repair there too. I do remember taking one tour to see
Hiroshima, and it left a very vivid impression on me, because the person giving the tour was an
individual who’d lost his family. They never forget that. They have some pictures where you
would look at it and it was starting to be rebuilt for sure but you could see where that land
looked a whole lot different than the countryside around it, so you know exactly the containment
area where that bomb took place. But then to have somebody who’d actually lost his family, he
felt to honor his family would be to describe what he went through and what took place. That left
a mark with me.
[1:15:40] A lot of Navy ships went down to Hong Kong at one point, did you get down
there?
Yep, and just stepping through all that, that’s where that military police. So you get to Hong
Kong to get settled and then you get into yeah. So not much time there but the military police
side of that is. You would see yourself as part of the police but you would be part of the Hong
Kong military police, let me tell you they were no-nonsense with our guys. They were small but
extremely combative. Once in action, goodness gracious. Probably for their size, the best handto-hand trained combat people I had ever seen in my life. It was a side of the equation that I had
no appreciation of until we’re there for a short period of time and you’re letting those people go
offboard, how they’re gonna behave and everything else. Staying aboard to make sure all the
work on the ship gets done very very quickly so you can go back out on the line. I think we
could’ve done some things differently to present ourselves in a slightly better way.
So you’re kind of unleashing the soon to be unleashed on the town and someone cleans
up after them. You spent some time sorting through the things that happened while you
were on the ship. Are there kinda key things or events or incidents or impressions here
that you want to bring into the story?
�[1:17:12] Let me go to the tougher ones first. The tougher ones would be you’d be sailing along
on Ranger Station during the day and you’d start seeing pieces of gear in the water and then
you’d realize that these were ours, where are they coming from? When you first see them you’re
not quite sure, and then you’d realize they were parts of aircraft. A lot of them turn out, but not
all the time, to be fuel tanks. So those fighter jets that left those carriers would go out and
provide firepower to wherever they’re asked for reconnaissance missions or whatever,
helicopters, whatever. But they had a certain amount of fuel in those tanks and sometimes, as
you know, we had no idea where some of those, I just watched the recent viewing of National
Memorial Day and they had a family from Vietnam who went through all this. I watched it and it
is so true that people were supposed to be at certain areas, but you weren’t sure where the area
was. They were then captured, some came back, some didn’t, some died. Then you realize that
the support for these people became absolutely tantamount to what you’re doing. It goes
beyond fuel. So one of the biggest things we use to do is carry mail. Mail would go in there and
that was just terrific, specifically for the smaller ships. Then at one point, we were just given a
few Christmas trees that were actually in there, in the Delta, down at these different coastline
areas and they would come out and they were just so appreciative, because they were the ones
who were firing all that firepower and all that sweeping, and they were really the ones under the
most difficult scenarios because they would take firepower from the coastline, we were not
taking that firepower from the coastline. The only things we saw coming back were the planes.
There were several carriers that experienced some significant issues. 44 died on the USS
Oriskany and that was not due to anything, that was due to a problem aboard the carrier when
they were launching. You would see that death didn’t occur necessarily all by enemy fire. We
saw more of the ones where this came to light. Part of which is we saw a few planes not being
able to get back. They were so close and you’d be praying for them, that they’d make it back on
the top of that carrier. We saw a few, but that sort of brought all this to light. Like “what are we
doing out here?” Then you see that’s what we’re doing out here. And you just pray to God that
that pilot would be able to make it back. Most did, but a few didn’t, and you were able to get,
some you weren’t, cause you just don’t know whether they were wounded as well as they tried
to bring that back. That was the vividness, I guess, to us of how we saw that. Coupled with
those ships that we would provide, we sent casings back, so we’d do just about anything
anybody asked us to that was Captain Millar, even though it’s like “isn’t the ammunition ships
those to bring back the brass?” “Yeah but when’s that next one coming through? I’m fully loaded
with 38 shells.” I remember when I left I made a lamp out of mine. I took one piece of brass back
and made a lamp out of it and I still have it today because that five-inch 38 was it. I mean, when
you take it back that was the brass. You’d see how important that one piece of armament really
was to everybody. But he was willing to be supportive and I think that’s another thing it’s like, we
were supposed to do this, but we could do that. Well where in the regulations does it say that an
oiler can’t take on a Christmas tree or deliver mail or take people, even though it might be a
responsibility? (1:21:47) When you’re in times of conflict you really sort of do what’s needed. It
gives you a full perspective. You’re out there and can see how the war really resides with those
that are the pilots and in closer you would get mine sweeps and some of the other ships. The
LSMR, which I still remember today is probably, if you look at some of the Vietnam movies, it’s
the closest thing to looking at the bridge on one of these and seeing people in cutoff tee-shirts
and armament like this, gun mounts where there shouldn’t be, but that’s what they did. I just
�said “boy, that’s the closest thing that I can ever see.” Those were depicted but we didn’t have
very many of those. The front end of this was just rockets. I’d never seen one of those before,
you could see just by how many rounds of fire they could put off so quickly, and they needed a
paint job. That was war and they could really provide great firepower. You never know the full
complement of everyone out there, you had your job to do. You certainly had a chance to see
casualties, you had a chance to see death, but yet you had a chance to see how everything fits
together when a conflict like this takes place. I do have some even more difficult memories a
little further down in the story, but that sort of gets us through where we are.
[1:23:36] After we did this month after month after month, we had our ups and downs but
for the most part never as many problems in the port Subic Bay as we had the first time. I still
remember that, whether it was a challenge or an opportunity or whatever that was. We had a
few problems with bad weather, I have the pictures that show the difficulty of those that come
back and all of that. For the most part I would say we had a relatively successful tour. You’re
called back for this period of time, so we were called back. I remember one of the biggest
honors that I was given was to bring the ship home.
So where was that, back to San Francisco?
Yeah, so I brought it under the Golden Gate Bridge. Again, you would have pilots. We did a lot,
thank goodness. That’s another thing we should say, because sometimes you can’t bring an
oiler into Subic Bay or you can’t bring it into a port along the Vietnamese coastline without
having a pilot. So I should always tell you tugboat pilots and all those crew that were part of
those riverine forces along with the PBRs, which we can talk more about those, Patrol River
Boats. They’re the ones that actually went up the coastline each and every day for the Navy.
They probably were the best trained of anybody. To get back home you had to have to pilots,
but I got it back, and what an honor to be given the opportunity to bring the ship home, at least
for that watch when we got there.
[1:25:33] I guess we’re generally following your story in order, so you got other sort of
stories from the Neches that you haven’t gotten into yet that you want to bring onto the
record.
Part of them was kind of the extension of the difficulties with the military police that we had in
Hong Kong, it was continued in Subic Bay. It was a very difficult spot, you can read all you want
about Subic Bay, it’s a story in itself. You know, open sewage, all sorts of stuff. You can just
imagine living like there with completely marginalized people, looking for handouts and
everything else. Very difficult to immerse in a friendly way on an ongoing basis. We had out
degrees of difficulty and we did suffer some significant consequences, but most ships had those
inside Subic Bay. Subic Bay was the stopping point for all the seventh fleet activities as it was
going over there. It grew, but I was always most concerned, and the stories present themselves,
about the behavior that actually took place there. I saw some things that I just didn’t think I’d see
before about how to treat people and that will always leave a memory too, just decency. You
can talk about the bar fights, you can talk about all that, but it goes beyond. All of a sudden it
was like “what’s the life value? What’s the value of a person?” At times, you would see people
where there was no value, who didn’t look like they didn’t care. I’d never seen that. You’re
brought up, go to college, people value things and all of a sudden “what’s the value of life?” It’s
an interesting question.
[1:27:41] Did you have any sailors who went into town, never came back?
�Yep.
And it’s known for the bars, and the prostitution, as well as crime and various things that
can happen if you’re not careful.
You just described it, that’s the trail. And when you would that, let’s just take that point for a
minute and reflect upon it, you think you’re now in friendly territory, but what did you just say?
You said they go ashore, they drink, there’s prostitution, there’s crime, and then they never
came back. What’s the difference of that versus somebody who just lost their life serving out in
Yankee Station? Where are we losing lives? We’re losing them in lots of places, I guess is the
best piece that I can describe. I was seeing more of the other side of that than people who were
actually on the combative side, although I did get a very good taste of what that was. There was
more things on the other side of the equation than I ever imagined.
By the time the Neches gets back to California, are you pretty close to being done with
your active duty at that point?
That’s when something memorable happened. I had spent time, I think I told you, with my wife
and I was given the opportunity to ship over again and go to the next area of training which was
Coronado Beach for River Patrol Boat. That’s what was next. My wife had the opportunity of
saying if the Navy is your career, and this is where you’re going, maybe I’ll go somewhere else.
So today, she’s still my strongest support, and she allowed me to continue the Navy a little bit
more, which we could chat briefly about, but that was the line of demarcation for me. Although
you asked me before, first question “did I have…”, and the answer is yeah I probably would’ve
given it to myself. She was looking much further into this than I was, because once you get into
this it becomes, I hate to say it, a lifestyle. Now, all of a sudden, I had had one lifestyle platform
launching lifestyle, now I’m in the lifestyle. And of course, what does the Navy want? They want
people who have had a launching lifestyle, have seen what this is, they don’t want to take on as
many rookies anymore. Very very hard decision. I made it
[1:30:50] How much time did you have left in active duty at that point?
As soon as I said “no”, they processed me pretty quick. It wasn’t like “well let’s sit around and
talk about old times” because they were preparing for their next deployment. THey also were
looking for these River Patrol Boats. They usually were captained by a Lieutenant, so they had
a small complement. Those were officers who usually had a warrant officer with them and in the
deck. Those were the inshore river enforces, and separate task force. That was part of what
could’ve come next, or staying aboard the Neches just to do another deployment. That was all
in that mix. When you’re out there by yourself, she did come, my wife did come to see my ship
brought back. I felt like that was a commitment. Because when you do this, you never know.
There was this period of time, she made the commitment to come out and at least see.
[1:32:06] Were you married at this time?
No
So you had met before and do you correspond while you’re on the ship?
Just to stay in touch. That was not a good thing to do until you figured out whether your feet’s on
really good ground or not so yes. That was the decision made back in June of ‘67. I did track my
release there.
Once you’re off active duty, you’re still in the active reserve then?
Right, so I still have more years to finish out.
Once you’re off active duty, did you go back to school, get a job? What did you do?
�Now, all of a sudden, I go get married. That followed almost, you know, within the next period of
time because that’s where this decision was made. I did get a job and one of the things being I
had a background in chemistry. When I first came through, knowing that I might get out, I had
looked at several companies and sort of processed myself. Dow Chemical was the first job I got.
Now I have a job, but now I actually go for active-duty training. Now you’re in the active part of
the USNR. Now I’m assigned AC-Dutra in the same timeframe, the latter part of ‘67, in New
Jersey. Now I have part of a unit that is on active reserve there in New Jersey, which is where I
was for my job.
[1:34:02] What was your unit in New Jersey doing?
This is a whole nother story and it’s bittersweet because I look back on it today not sure I made
all the right decisions but there was a couple of things that turned my decision and you can
share those because it's nationally known. Active duty is basically a reserve center. It’s a
physical location in which you all spend a certain amount of weekends and a certain of week
during the summer, a couple of weeks away. That started and it's called the Ready Reserve.
After entering that, so for the late ‘60s early ‘70s, I spent summers aboard--and I think I can get
most of these-- a couple of Oilers, so Caloosahatchee AO-98. Let’s see, let me get them in
consequence. USS Trenton, and the Truckee, another oiler, AO-167, US Newport LST 1179.
These were usually ships that were home ported, they could be out at sea or an employment.
Half of them were, half of them were just at port. You would spend two weeks during the
timeframe. It was all staying in a prepared readiness thing if, in fact, you were ever called up
which we weren’t. That continued on. During this timeframe, in ‘69 I became lieutenant and at
the same time became an administrative officer for this unit. Then I became the XO of this unit,
executive of this unit, in 1974. So I was staying very engaged, I actually looked at a fitness
report that I have, a couple fitness reports. You know it’s interesting how people look at you
back then.
I had them in my jacket, I think I told you I brought my jacket. I was looking in my jacket
like “what did anybody think about this?” so I read a couple of the fitness reports. If I had really
probably looked at them the way I looked, I would have stayed in and gotten my 20, but I didn’t/
The rub was this: there was about 250,000 that were in active duty, getting paid to all this, and
then we had the executive order by you know what president that sort of said, “we’re just cutting
back the reserves, we’re just scratching out pay and that’s it.” That took all the wind out of my
sails because that means the only thing you’re doing is going down there one weekend a
month, two weeks during the summer, you’re not getting paid, and what does all that mean?
Cause now you’ve taken all these units off active reserve. Then you’re just pushing paper and
pencils. That sort of came to light and I went in inactive standby reserve in 1978. Now I'm in a
different state. So I’ve come from the East Coast Navy, to the West Coast Navy, to active duty,
to inactive and so do I want to stay? I had to ask myself a question at the time “was this the best
use of my time?” I made the decision I wasn’t gonna waste it. I was gonna go back and get an
MBA, so that’s what I did. But I was just talking about my wife last night before I got here and I
said “you know after reading all this stuff, what everybody thought, I don’t know whether I made
the right decision.”
[1:38:31] You did mention that the people who were the reserves were not getting paid?
Right.
But you were still showing up?
�Had to show up. Inactive, as long as you were there, means you’re just getting your
retirement pieces, you’re not getting paid for doing anything. Before you were being paid for
something. So they took, under Clinton’s watch, which was starting to get in there, I believe
that’s how it all started late into that period, those were the times when they shrunk the size of
the Ready Reserve and shut down many of the Ready Reserve units and put many of them on
inactive status. That’s where all that churn started for me and then I wound up [inaudible]
Do you mean Carter rather than Clinton?
I’m trying to remember.
Cause Carter is ‘77.
I’m trying to remember the president that decreed all this, I think I was in the reserves.
When was Carter, 85?
No Carter is after Ford, so Carter is ‘77 to ‘81.
Alright, it may be Carter, I’m trying to remember who took it, who followed that piece
right after that.
You have Carter, then you have Reagan, and Bush, and then Clinton. Clinton’s not until
the 90s.
It may have been Carter. Somebody had taken out, maybe it was Clinton I guess,
excuse me, he was the one who took out, I’m sorry I had it out of order in my mind, he’s the one
who took out my brother-in-law who was a captain. He was the same issue. Got a name, his
name because he stayed in for 20, my brother in law. It would’ve been this, but it was the
shrinking at the time of this national, these active, what they call the act neutral programs.
That’s when I had to make a decision on whether I just wanted to stay the next, because I was
halfway there, to stay for these next 10 years and just do the retirement points, or whether I
could use my time better and that was the decision I made. I think I was formally discharged in
October of 1982.
[1:40:35] Look at the time that you spent in the Navy, what do you think you took out of
that, or how did it affect you?
Well that’s probably worth more of the conversation than just some highlights of what
you went through. Well first of all, I had no idea what the difference was between responsibility
and accountability. We throw those terms away like “it’s your responsibility” but whose
accountability? I learned what accountability means in the Navy, not responsibility. I could
delegate you my responsibility, but not my accountability. I don’t know where I could’ve learned
that lesson. Where does the buck actually stop? That’s what I learned. That was one important
lesson.
I would say another big lesson in that is this whole area that we talked about today is this
journey. Everybody wants to reach a destination point and say that I’ve accomplished this and
accomplished that. I don’t know a better set of tools that I could’ve been given that allowed me
to have the journey I’ve had. Never knew that at that time. It’s a toolbox. What do you do under
rapid fire? What do you do in the middle of the night? What do you do, what do you do, what do
you do? Developing game plans, working with people, relying on people. I mean, it’s all there.
You could put people through all the exercises, but unless you’ve done that on a consistent
consistent basis. I never looked at it, I didn’t spend tours and tours, I wasn’t in hand to hand, but
I’m walking away not knowing what you’re asking me today, but as you reflect back I don’t think
I could have progressed on the career that I had done without having that. There were some
�inspirations, my brother-in-law is retired full-captain. He was unable to make admiral, but he was
a fighter pilot off-carrier, there’s a real guy. He stayed and we talked a lot. He was always kind
of like, you know, you always have somebody in your family and my wife’s dad, he was the one
who stormed the beach. Very quiet, both of them. You’ll learn in your family roots and so service
became an important part. I don’t think I looked at service to the country like I look at it today.
You can ask me a question and does it bother me what we’re doing? Absolutely. Absolutely.
This sense of honor today, I don’t know how anybody even defines it when you see what’s
going on. You look at these people that served and as I was saying, one of the most
momentous things that I’ve seen recently is this recent PBR broadcast on Memorial Day for an
hour and a half. My eyes glistened listening to those stories. Every family, school member,
school kid, oughta see that. Only takes an hour and a half out of your life, listen to people. They
couldn’t even tell their own stories so they used actors James to tell the stories then they had
the people there. These are some that have been maimed for life and yet have rehabilitated
themselves. Others that have served but are missing still today. Just wonderful stories about
how our country has been built, and we seem to gloss over this today and don’t understand
what honor and respect is. [1:44:42] I’m not sure, when you look back on what I experienced, I
didn’t see the respect, I saw the honor of serving, but the respect I didn’t necessarily see.
One vivid impression that also remains with me is, I told you that I worked for Dow
Chemical first. I came out, I was given the opportunity to go to Midland, Michigan for a year and
to see whether or not I was fit for duty to serve Dow Chemical. You say “well that’s easy once
you’re employed.” The reason why I did that was, I came fully trained. Dow had the best training
program of any other chemical company. Why wouldn’t you, if you’re a rookie, want to get
trained the best? I stayed in Midland for the better part of a year before they actually allowed me
to go talk to anybody. I thought that was kind of neat. What I did, my first job was in the
Northeast, which is back where my area is. I remember today, walking into the Dow offices in
New York and seeing on the inside of the glass windows burnt children from napalm and people
maimed by Agent Orange. I didn’t recover for awhile. I was really, now you know I sort of
separate myself from what I had been through, try to get myself--I always used the term, you
know, I was taking, after being on active duty and having all these Navy terms, I coined my new
part of my life after I left the service even though I was still active, I was “active duty” for civilian
life. Well when I first went to work, that bridge fell apart because I’m now working for a company
where people are out there every day of the week bringing the company down because they
participated with the development of Napalm and Agent Orange.
[1:47:25] Of course, when you first are joining Dow, late ‘60s or early ‘70s there’s not
really much public about Agent Orange.
The pictures were there, you could see the pictures. They were hung when I went in
there in 1968, ‘69, the pictures of what Napalm effects had.
Napalm you would see. That was immediate.
That was there, you could see those pictures followed by. Those pictures were pretty
descriptive and so now all of a sudden I have flash memories of a peace I didn’t necessarily
see, but were a part. So that created a degree of instability because now you’re serving at home
the company who had manufactured this product, what was its role and now it’s like “oh you’re
gonna revisit this.” So there was a several year period in there where I had to get my sea legs
back together again. I went through the same couple year period of now quite sure what I was
�doing, why I was doing it. Fortunately, I was surrounded by some good people that were able to
do that. Those flash memories backward with that picture still sit very vivid with me. I just
remember walking up that long staircase in the city and it was glass and there are those
pictures.
And they were actually putting up pictures of the effects of what they made. Alright. Of
course, you come back and now it’s like ‘67, then you go to ‘68, ‘69, and so forth, kinda
get into the era of the peak of the anti-war movement. Did that register much with you, or
did you pay much attention to it?
[1:49:07] I did, but I went silent. I got kind of (trails off) I can tell you how I got brought
back, it’s really because of Grand Valley and the LZ Vietnam piece. I went silent and there were
so many questions that were there about why we did stuff, and we actually probably could’ve,
online, come up with some better thoughts. We just knew and wondered why and, of course it’s
a lot like, it was a very difficult war to fight because we knew nothing of the territory. I mean it
was like, how do you do warfare along a coastline like that where you basically don’t have any
experience being there before? It’s kind of like the current situations where you’re now in desert
types of conditions but never been there. There was all of that. It was all a question of whether
you were actually equipped to do, as we were working with nothing more than what we had
previously fought with. We knew there was upgrades in technology, so you wonder where that
was. Then you saw the whole issue of purpose. I didn’t really follow the war that greatly was
happening south-Be careful with hitting your microphone, by the way.
South in Dixie Station and starting to look at that whole area of the whole of the whole
fall period, the new documentary that came out. That piece was kind of not there but very
historically important, but I didn’t pay a whole lot of attention to it. I just felt like I’d served, I got
my feet back on the ground, I stayed in the reserves, I’d done my time, but yet I came to Grand
Valley, been there for a while and then all of a sudden what happened was, you know, I got a
little bit more in WGVU and then I saw a little bit more about what happened and then the LZ
Vietnam came several years ago. I had never been to anything. Nothing. Then all of a sudden I
went. It was very interesting, very few Navy people there, but the people I saw again brought
back the service side and the pride side of looking at these people who were the combatants.
The Marines were there, the Army was there, a few Airforce, not very many Navy. Then all of a
sudden you saw the difference really was being made and why the war was fought. It wasn’t
from everybody telling it, it was really the experience of what all those went though.
[1:51:52] I don’t talk about it at all. I mean, it was a long time just to get to where we are
today. I only have a little piece of this whole puzzle. I do think the service to our country is
critically important and I’m glad I went through what I did. I know I was prepared, I didn’t quite
know what I was being prepared for, but the preparation was there. So I took that after I got my
feet re-back on the ground with some others, and I used those experiences very well, but I didn’t
wind up with the haunting memories that some have had. Those memories start to come out
when you see some of those people like at the LZ Michigan and they’re haunted to this day. I
am so thankful to God that I didn’t have those haunting pieces. I mean, that little issue I shared
with Dow, that was a flashback. You don’t wanna have too many of those, but I walked away
with it with service to the country for a period of time which I learned something that I could use
elsewhere. Fortunately, what I learned I was able to use in knowing how to work with people
�and trying to get them set in the right direction into my business career. I stayed in the chemical
industry for my life. Now it’s kind of interesting because you can talk to people who now are
students and say “hey, you’re in the chemical industry” and some of them say “you’re the one”
still to this day like “you’re the one that had all the pollutants and everything else.” Perceptions
and images follow you and it’s fascinating to me when you talk to people who don’t know
anything about the war, what image do you have in perception? And then to some that do. I still
think the storytelling is what makes this whole picture the most truthful and representable
account that you can find. So I commend you for taking the time in the History Project to get as
many of these voices together, because voices left alone don’t necessarily give you the voice
you’re looking for. It’s the collective voice that makes the big difference, because we were
looking for collective voices and wondered where they were. Why were we being exposed to
this? I didn’t even go into, picture this, a little flashback just came. So I’d go into Subic Bay and I
knew what pieces of gear we’d need to go back out online or if we’re in a port along the
coastline or something, I knew the pieces of gear. I learned the terminology I will never forget
called comshaw. You ever heard of the word comshaw?
[1:54:50] Don’t think so.
It’s to borrow with the intent never to return. So what’s a better word for better word for
borrowing with the intent never to return? Steal. From our own people. So you’d go into a supply
and you’d look at stuff and if you knew you were gonna need it: take two. So all of a sudden it’s
these kinds of scenarios of preparedness. It’s like “well, if you’re not gonna be prepared, I’m
certainly gonna be ready.” You don’t learn that in a textbook. This is cultural, behavioral things.
There’s a lot on the behavioral side of what you experienced during that time frame that I’ll
never, ever, ever, forget. That was just something that came to mind. How do you, do you just
put simple requests in? Oh yeah. But how do you really get stuff? You barter, you trade. Okay,
that was part of the deal too. Those are all this background of experiences that you all go
through, but that’s real life right. You get out online for 30 days, what are you gonna do if
something breaks down? You’d better have another one. Specifically if you’re underway
replenishing. Can’t wait for another valve to work, you gotta go get it.
[1:56:07] Did you learn that kind of thing from the senior enlisted?
Absolutely
Yeah. They’re very good at that kind of thing.
Oh, they were awesome. I don’t think the chief that we had aboard the oiler, I never gave him to
this day,I wish I could meet him. I don’t know whether he’s alive today or what. I wish I could’ve
thanked him better, cause he made me what I was. I don’t think I ever looked him in the eye and
said that, but I sure wish I could. Chief Doyle. Awesome, awesome guy. He was the steady
Eddy through all this like “hey tell me how does this really work.” He was there and he was the
one that always made that, what we called our division. It was our division. He was the one that
could always make that work, he’s in the book. I just look back and I’m saying “boy, if you have
to look at somebody who really made this thing go, to your point, it was a senior petty officer. He
was as good as it gets. Calm, steady under all conditions and here we are trying to jump
around. So that calming influence, not only from Captain Millar, but, I mean you can’t find that.
you always hear the other side. I was blessed to have some calming influence to go through
what we did. Without it, now you’re in a highly reactive mode. They were being able to
proactively put into you what to expect and of course the anticipation if you get it right is half the
�game. “What are we gonna get for this next four hour period? What is it gonna really look like?”
They were very good at that. Those are all pieces of this journey, but I guess I’d look back on it
as a journey. It was one step, and a big one. You’re fresh out of college, and how you learn
accountability, responsibility, all of this short order? This is how you do it.
Well, I’ll tell you, it makes for a good story so thank you very much for coming and
sharing it.
You’re welcome. Thank you.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_ChristopherN2129V
Title
A name given to the resource
Christopher, Norman (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-19
Description
An account of the resource
Norman Christopher was born in Ridgewood, New Jersey, in 1943 where he attended local public schools and graduated high school. His father worked as a Hull Secretary for Atlantic Mutual Marine Insurance, influencing Christopher's interest in naval vessels. In 1961, he attended the University of South Carolina for its Naval Reserve Officer Training Course, alongside the study of chemistry, with the idea of possibly making a career out of the Navy. While in college, Christopher was aware of the growing tensions of the Cold War, but remained largely focused on his education. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy put the tensions of the decade into perspective for him, fostering a heightened sense of awareness going forward. He graduated in May of 1965 and went on to attend Nuclear, Chemical, and Biological School in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, which helped clear him as a specialist in the Navy. His first assignment came in the summer of 1965 when he was assigned to the DD724 USS Laffey. an older ship ported in Norfolk, Virginia. He recalled how his first few months of duty were challenging since the turbulence of the sea made his work difficult to complete without developing his 'sea legs.' As an officer, Christopher was then assigned as a Quarter Deck Watch Officer with duties on the bridge as well as elsewhere on the vessel. After his time on the USS Laffey, he attended a course on Cargo Fuel Handling in San Diego, California, before being assigned to the USS Neches. On this new ship, Christopher traveled to the South China Sea and the Gulf of Tonkin during the Vietnam War. He detailed how American naval carriers supported the inland ground forces with aircraft that did most of the fighting while Christopher and his vessel ran refueling missions between ships in the gulf. He also recalled having to occasionally operate in typhoons or enormous waves. While serving on the Neches, his fellow crew members remained largely consistent and Christopher was eventually promoted to Lieutenant JG on the ship. He had great respect for his Captain on the Neches and held many of the other officers in high regard, even though he did not come into close contact with all of them. Christopher also believed he became a better ship handler over time and how homesickness affected some men who had been to sea longer than others. In one instance, his ship was fired upon as a warning to discourage it from drawing closer to shore. In other instances, he recalled how local fishing vessels would travel in close proximity to the American vessels to conduct their work. Christopher did travel into port in locations such as Subic Bay in the Philippines, Da Nang in Vietnam to access the military hospital at the port, as well as in Japan where he briefly became a Navy Military Policeman. Later, noticing how some planes never made it back to their carriers or how others barely made it back, Christopher was given reason to start questioning why the United States was actually in the war. Reflecting upon the greater picture of American naval operations during the war, he analyzed how every branch of the service, class of ship, and crew assignment worked together and cooperated during conflict. Christopher described the situation in Subic Bay as relatively chaotic with large populations of marginalized people, poverty, and pollution. This made the interactions of American servicemen with local civilians tense and often dangerous due to heightened rates of crime, bar fights, and widespread prostitution. When the Neches returned to California, Christopher chose, with the persuasion of his future wife, to not pursue active duty in the Navy as his primary career going forward. In June of 1967, he was released from active duty, remaining in the active reserves, and pursued marriage as well as employment at Dow Chemical Company. While in the Navy Active Reserves, he moved to New Jersey where he became a Lieutenant and Administrative Officer, and then Executive Officer, for his reserve unit before transferring to inactive duty. Ultimately, Christopher decided the Navy
was no longer the best career choice for him in favor of pursuing a higher academic degree and was discharged in October of 1982. He concluded that the Navy taught him the value of accountability, intertwining it with lessons on responsibility. He noted how there was an honor in serving, but not overall respect for being a soldier, and how he was haunted for years about imagery of the effects of napalm while working at Dow Chemical. Reflecting upon his service, Christopher was ultimately happy that he served his country. He was also fortunate that memories of combat do not haunt him as they do for many mutilated veterans who served on the ground during the war.
Pre-Enlistment: (00:00:33:00)
Enlistment/Training: (00:02:05:00)
Service: (00:14:45:00)
Post-Service Reflections: (01:40:28:00)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Christopher, Norman
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy. Naval Reserves
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
eng