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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fae593a2da2fbb7ca50fadd1af553bac.mp4
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2d8f37e7b70682b8a58b225a2fa14164.pdf
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Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Vietnam War
James Wykstra
Interview Length: (01:32:05:00)
Pre-enlistment Life / Training (00:00:09:00)
Born in Cutlerville, Michigan in 1947 (00:00:09:00)
Growing up, Wykstra attended Cutlerville Christian School and South Christian High
School and after graduating, decided to attend community college at Grand Rapids Junior
College (00:00:20:00)
Wykstra attended junior college for a year and was not doing great and when it looked
like he was going to get drafted, he went and enlisted in the Navy Reserves (00:00:45:00)
Growing up, Wykstra mother stayed at home and his father worked at a hospital
(00:01:02:00)
o There were five children in the family and Wykstra was right in the middle; he
had an older brother and sister and a younger brother and sister (00:01:10:00)
When he enlisted, Wykstra knew the Vietnam War was going on and figured that he had
a duty to enlist and serve in the military (00:01:42:00)
Wykstra finally enlisted in August 1966 (00:01:52:00)
o He selected the Navy because he did not want to crawl around in the mud and he
wanted nice meals and a good bed to sleep in (00:02:01:00)
While growing up, a friend of Wykstra had a speed boat and Wykstra had a hydroplane,
so he had some experience on the water before he joined the Navy (00:02:20:00)
Basic training was two weeks at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center in Chicago and
then two weeks aboard a ship in Chicago (00:02:52:00)
Before he left for basic training, Wykstra wanted no one in his family to know that he
was leaving (00:03:11:00)
o Wykstra had a little party the night before he left and the next morning, he
accidentally slept through his alarm, consequently, missing his bus to Chicago,
and woke up when his mother called him to go to church (00:03:16:00)
o Wykstra’s brother had just bought a new Mustang and he drove Wykstra to
Holland, Michigan, where Wykstra was able to catch the bus (00:03:45:00)
o Wykstra finally told his family he was joining the Navy that morning and
naturally, they were a little upset that Wykstra had not tell them earlier
(00:04:04:00)
o He chose not to tell his family because he viewed it that they did not need to
know and because he was only going be gone for a month, it was not a very big
deal (00:04:24:00)
The training at Great Lakes for Wykstra was strictly for the Navy Reserves (00:04:35:00)
o The basic training went well and when Wykstra boarded the ship, he had to get
tours of it to orient himself aboard it (00:04:40:00)
�
o Some of the other men who came aboard the ship with Wykstra had already been
in the Navy and they explained different things to him and helped ease the process
for him (00:05:04:00)
o The ship was a smaller one and the men were supposed to sail it to near
Muskegon, Michigan to fire its guns; however, when the ship left port in Chicago
and made it past the barriers, it had to turn around because Lake Michigan was
too rough (00:05:21:00)
o During the training, Wykstra does not recall how much emphasis they placed on
discipline, although it was something that he always had trouble with
(00:06:01:00)
After completing the four weeks of training, Wykstra went back home and continued
going to the Reserve meetings (00:06:27:00)
o Eventually, he asked if he could go into active duty early or would he have to
complete the year of Navy Reserve first (00:06:37:00)
o They said Wykstra could get in early and he told them that the end of May,
beginning of June would work for him; however, when the middle of June came,
Wykstra still had not been called (00:06:46:00)
The Navy eventually wanted to know if Wykstra had gotten some girl
pregnant and that was why he wanted to leave early but he explained that
he just wanted to get the year done and over with (00:07:04:00)
o When the Navy told him they would get him on active duty right away, Wykstra
asked for a couple of weeks off from his work before he left, so at the end of June,
he basically quit work (00:07:16:00)
He was kicked out of the apartment he living in, so Wykstra took the next
month’s rent, bought a tent and lived on the beach (00:07:41:00)
o However, after about three weeks, Wykstra still was not in the Navy, so he went
back to his old job and asked to come back to work at a print shop (00:07:53:00)
o Wykstra only went back to work for a couple of weeks before the Navy placed
him on active duty (00:08:08:00)
Deployment (00:08:23:00)
Once Wykstra was on active duty, the Navy sent him to San Francisco (00:08:23:00)
o While Wykstra was in transit waiting to be assigned in late August, someone
woke him at four in the morning, said his father had died and Wykstra was going
home on emergency leave (00:08:31:00)
When Wykstra went down to get his orders allowing him to go home, the
man said he thought Wykstra was lying, which caused Wykstra to jump
across the desk and started beating the man (00:08:57:00)
Wykstra had to go talk with the commanding officer but he did his orders
and flew back to Grand Rapids for fifteen days (00:09:23:00)
o After the fifteen days, Wykstra flew back to San Francisco and stayed there for
another week or two before the Navy flew him to the Philippines (00:09:45:00)
While waiting for his ship, the U.S.S. Davidson, in the Philippines, Wykstra went into a
nearby town to drink (00:10:10:00)
�
o One time when he went into the town, a dog bit Wykstra in the back of his calf
and Wykstra asked the owners to tie to dog up for ten days to make sure it did not
have rabies (00:10:32:00)
o In those ten days, the Davidson had unfortunately already come in and left but
after the ten days, Wykstra checked and the dog did not have rabies (00:11:10:00)
The Navy eventually flew Wykstra to Japan to board the Davidson (00:11:46:00)
o When he got to Japan, Wykstra checked in on the base and was given bedding and
told where to go spend the night; however, as he left, they called his name for him
to come back and when he did so, they told him the Davidson was pulling out in
two hours and he needed to get aboard (00:11:51:00)
The Davidson was a destroyer escort, meaning it was a small ship, only about a football
field in length (00:12:35:00)
o The ship was armed with depth charges, missiles, two 5 inch guns and torpedo
tubes (00:12:41:00)
o Different departments on the ship had different sleeping areas (00:13:09:00)
o The ship had just been commissioned in 1965, which meant it had air
conditioning and other modern amenities (00:13:17:00)
Wykstra was put with the deck crew when he first got onboard, which consisted of:
painting, sweeping, cleaning and washing walls (00:13:49:00)
At one point, a weapons yeoman was leaving the ship and Wykstra and another man
applied for the job (00:14:19:00)
o While he was home on his emergency leave, Wykstra met a girl who happened to
be from the hometown of the weapons yeoman who was leaving, they knew each
other, and the yeoman allowed Wykstra to take the typing test three or four times
(00:14:44:00)
On the typing test, Wykstra had to type thirty-five words a minute and
every mistake was a deduction of ten words (00:15:01:00)
o Wykstra took the test three times before he finally passed it and he does not know
how the other man faired but he ended up getting the job (00:15:09:00)
As a weapons yeoman, Wykstra would type up the orders of the day, what duties the men
were supposed to do that day, and any weapon reports, which were logs of how many
shells had been fired, etc. (00:15:30:00)
o Once he had typed up the weapon reports, a lieutenant would read it, make some
slight changes, have Wykstra retype it and then would give it to his superior, who
would make other changes (00:16:04:00)
o There were no computers and would end up having the type the same report or
document around eight times at least because everyone in the chain of command
would make changes to a report (00:16:18:00)
o When they pulled into ports, Wykstra missed liberty time finishing the reports
(00:16:47:00)
o There was always something for Wykstra to type (00:17:08:00)
When he first got aboard the ship, Wykstra was told who he would report to and who
would be giving him orders (00:17:38:00)
o There was not much of an introduction or orientation (00:17:43:00)
�
o One time, while on the deck crew, one man was painting a yardarm and asked
Wykstra if he saw any holidays; not knowing what that meant, Wykstra told him
that he did not see any (00:17:49:00)
When the man came down, he yelled at Wykstra for telling him there were
no holidays, spots where he had missed, when there were (00:18:14:00)
There were a few men on the deck crew that Wykstra fell in with and got along well with
(00:18:42:00)
o After he became yeoman, Wykstra had his own little office on the ship and in
Japan, he bought turntables, speakers, and recording equipment so that when they
were at sea, they could listen to music, mainly rock and roll records (00:18:48:00)
o When they pulled into port at Formosa, the records were a dime an album and the
men came to Wykstra to play them (00:19:33:00)
Wykstra got onto the Davidson in October 1967 (00:20:13:00)
The Davidson’s home port was in Hawaii, so after Wykstra boarded in Japan, they sailed
back to Hawaii (00:20:24:00)
Wykstra did not have any major problems adjusting to life at sea even though when the
Davidson left Japan, the seas were quite rough (00:20:52:00)
o Wykstra only got seasick twice: when the Davidson first left Japan for Hawaii and
another time in rough seas, also near Japan (00:21:02:00)
The second time he got seasick, Wykstra was at the helm of the ship when
a man on the lean helm said he needed a bucket; a messenger got a bucket
and the man threw up in the bucket (00:21:21:00)
The messenger emptied the bucket and when he brought it back,
the man working the status board asked for the bucket and ended
throwing up in it (00:21:59:00)
The pilothouse was beginning to smell like vomit and the
lieutenant in charge of the pilothouse asked Wykstra if any of that
bothered him and Wykstra said “not yet sir” (00:22:11:00)
The lieutenant then lit a cigar and blew it in Wykstra’s face,
causing him to vomit (00:22:28:00)
o When the ship was in rough seas, Wykstra did not worry about it capsizing
(00:23:01:00)
One time, a cook had just made fresh donuts when the seas were rough
and he came up to the pilothouse to see if he could bring up some of the
crew (00:23:06:00)
The men held onto ropes during rough seas and the cook accidentally let
go of the rope and slid, head first, into a steel footrest and split his head
open (00:23:28:00)
When the Davidson arrived in Hawaii, Wykstra was able to go ashore (00:24:03:00)
o Although the ship was only a couple of years old, it had to go into dry-dock
because one of the boilers was not working properly (00:24:17:00)
They ended up cutting a hole in the side of the ship so they could put in a
new boiler (00:24:27:00)
o Because of the sheer size of the repair, the men were in Hawaii for quite a long
time, all the way until August (00:24:35:00)
�
However, even while the ship was in dry-dock, the men stayed aboard it,
instead of in barracks on land (00:24:51:00)
o A friend of Wykstra from high school was in Hawaii at the same time, so the two
met up and went out to drink several times (00:24:56:00)
One time, one of the men went ashore, got extremely drunk, and when he
returned to the ship, got the keys for the gun locker room; the man
unloaded guns and ammunition, went on the deck, and began firing them
before taking off (00:25:23:00)
Shore patrol went looking for him while shining large spotlights and
Wykstra friend, who was part of the Shore Patrol, commented on how
stupid it was; the Shore Patrol was looking for the man with spotlights but
if he wanted to, he would shoot them (00:26:12:00)
They finally caught the man and the others never saw him again
(00:26:34:00)
Once the repairs on the ship were finished, the ship left Hawaii and sailed to several other
locations but Wykstra does not remember them all (00:27:14:00)
o The ship would spend thirty days sailing off the coast of Vietnam then a week at
some other location, such as Bangkok, Hong Kong, Japan, the Philippines, etc.
(00:27:21:00)
When the ship was sailing off the coast of Vietnam, the men had their regular job but
they also worked in a secondary, combat role; the men would normally go six hours on,
six hours off for their primary job (00:28:01:00)
o Sometimes, Wykstra worked in the fire control room for the ship’s guns relaying
orders between the lieutenant stationed in the fire control room and the gun
mounts, everything from where to fire to how much to fire (00:28:35:00)
o Other times, Wykstra worked in the pilothouse while the ship was off the
Vietnamese coast (00:28:51:00)
o The ship ended up firing a lot of ammunition onto the shore but as far as Wykstra
knows, while in Vietnam, the ship never received any return fire (00:29:10:00)
There were times when the ship had to sail from one location to another
quickly past small Vietnamese boats; the men did not know if the boats
could possibly be filled with explosives, so they did not slow down for
them (00:29:21:00)
If a boat got in the way, the ship kept going (00:29:40:00)
At one point, the ship received orders that it had to sail for Korea as fast as it could get
there (00:29:59:00)
o When the ship arrived, the sonar picked up a submarine; the men told the
submarine to identify itself and surface but it did not (00:30:06:00)
o The ship followed the submarine for eight days before it finally surfaced and
revealed itself to be a Russian submarine (00:30:16:00)
o When the submarine surfaced, the men took pictures of it and the Davidson ended
up escorting it out of the area (00:30:33:00)
They ended up confiscating all the film taken of the submarine and the
next day, Wykstra looked out and saw a torpedo floating in the water
(00:30:41:00)
�
When divers went to get the torpedo, there were snakes in the
water, so sharpshooters were posted before the divers tried again
(00:31:00:00)
Once they got the torpedo aboard, it was placed in the hanger bay, covered
with a tarp and again, everyone’s film was confiscated (00:31:20:00)
o At the time, the men did not know why they were ordered to Korea; all they knew
was that there was trouble near Korea (00:32:06:00)
The men did not know much about what was going on onshore in Vietnam; the
commander would get the orders and the men would follow them (00:32:27:00)
o One time, the ship pulled into the naval base at Cam Ranh Bay and the
commander and XO went ashore while the ship remained anchored in the bay;
when they came back, the two men said the ship was going to pull its anchor and
leave the next (00:32:38:00)
However, the next day, the men could not raise the anchor and after trying
several different ways to raise the anchor, they finally ended up cutting it
off and leaving it in the bay (00:32:57:00)
o When Wykstra worked in the fire control room, the lieutenant in charge of firing
the guns would receive an order, then tell Wykstra what adjustments needed to be
made, and Wykstra would relay the information to the gun crews (00:33:24:00)
o One time, the men heard two secondary explosions when they fired the guns,
which made them happy, but for the most part, they did not know what their
targets were or whether they had hit them (00:33:44:00)
o When it was firing, the ship normally worked alone (00:34:06:00)
However, the Davidson was also attached to the U.S.S. Hornet, and
aircraft carrier, and at any one time, there was between four and seven
destroyer escorts and other ships with the Hornet (00:34:11:00)
Aboard the U.S.S. Hornet (00:34:55:00)
At one point, Wykstra did go aboard the aircraft carrier Hornet (00:34:55:00)
o Wykstra was having trouble swallowing, so he went and saw the corpsman, who
told him it was no big deal and to wait until the ship got into port, then the
corpsman would send him to set a doctor (00:35:01:00)
o It got so bad that Wykstra went back to the corpsman and explained that it was
difficult to talk and he could not longer even swallow water (00:35:20:00)
o The aircraft carrier sent over a helicopter, picked Wykstra up, and took him back
to the aircraft carrier, where doctor diagnosed the problem as a wisdom tooth
(00:35:27:00)
The dentist said they needed to pull the tooth, but they had trouble pulling
it because as it turned out, the tooth was hooked around Wykstra’s
jawbone (00:35:59:00)
They ended up breaking the tooth apart and taking it out in pieces; once
they finished, they took x-rays again, found more pieces, and took those
pieces out as well (00:36:12:00)
They had given Wykstra a lot of pain killers and he stayed in the dentist’s
office for a long time (00:36:24:00)
�
o Wykstra wanted to get back to the Davidson and kept complain when the dentist
staff would not let him because of the amount of painkillers they used; finally, a
messenger came down and brought Wykstra up to the pilot house, where he asked
permission from the commander to fly back to the Davidson (00:36:32:00)
The commander checked and told Wykstra that by the time they got a
helicopter ready, it would be sunset and they could not transfer personnel
after sunset (00:37:15:00)
The commander had the men get Wykstra a bunk and told him to come
back the next morning (00:37:36:00)
o The next morning, Wykstra again asked permission to return to the Davidson but
the commander said he could not; when Wykstra why, the commander explained
that the Davidson had sailed for Formosa and the Hornet was sailing to the
Philippines (00:37:46:00)
The Hornet ended up staying in the Philippines for a week and because it was an aircraft
carrier, there were a lot of benefits for the men (00:38:17:00)
o Everyday, the men were able to grill hot dogs and hamburgers, they had boats
they used to go water skiing, there were women around, etc. (00:38:29:00)
o In the Philippines, they did not want the men to go into town because it was
dangerous for the men (00:39:03:00)
When the men went into town, they could only go down the main street
and between one and three blocks in either direction off that street;
everything else was out-of-bounds (00:39:18:00)
It was basically bar on top of bar and there were enlisted men’s clubs, with
one playing country music and the other playing rock and roll
(00:39:41:00)
Off to one side would be sitting a mamma san and several girls and if a
man wanted to dance, he would go talk with the mamma san, sign his
name in, pick a girl, and dance with her (00:40:15:00)
The government paid these girls well and when Wykstra ended up
meeting a girl whose parents owned the restaurant / bar, she said
she wanted that job because it paid the most money (00:40:37:00)
o Never the less, the Navy tried to keep the men on the base (00:41:13:00)
o One time, Wykstra went ashore because he had the day off and he bought a
couple of butterfly knives (00:41:19:00)
Whenever he went into town, Wykstra walked back on the left hand side
because when he drank, he back a little loose and on the right hand side
were many more prostitutes (00:41:39:00)
This time, he saw two nice looking Filipino women who always tried to
get him to go with them and that time, he said okay (00:42:02:00)
The three ended up hopping the back of a converted World War IIera jeep and on the way through the town, they begin fooling
around in front of the other people (00:42:24:00)
They ended up in an out-of-bounds area and Wykstra followed
them back their house (00:43:11:00)
�
o After Wykstra finished fooling around with another woman
in the house, he put his clothes back on and discovered his
knives were gone (00:44:18:00)
Wykstra then looked outside and saw at least three men standing
on porch of the house; he cannot see the other side of porch, so
Wykstra decides to run and jump out and when he does so, he sees
two other men standing on the porch (00:44:33:00)
o He assumed that they were going to get him and although
they did follow him for a little while, he did eventually lose
them (00:45:10:00)
As he was walking down the street back to the base, some kids came out
asking for money, which Wykstra did not have (00:45:26:00)
The kids started throwing rocks, causing Wykstra to run again and
luckily, a Filipino cop came, causing the kids to scatter
(00:45:40:00)
Wykstra eventually made it back to the ship, but it was bad because he
should have known better (00:45:54:00)
o Before the ship had pulled into port, the men went to a little meeting, where it was
explained how dangerous it was for the sailors in the town (00:46:02:00)
There was a river that ran next to the base and the men had to cross it to
get into town; the river was filthy and kids would stand next to it, trying to
bum cigarettes and other things from the sailors (00:46:15:00)
Just before the ship arrived in port, they had found the body of a sailor
floating in the river with no head (00:47:18:00)
The next day, on the desk of the base commander was a box and inside
was the head of the sailor (00:47:26:00)
o The prostitution outside the base was really bad, although the last time Wykstra
was there, there was a female mayor and she was attempting to clean it up
(00:47:66:00)
Wykstra finally made it back to the Davidson after about six weeks (00:48:46:00)
o While aboard the Hornet, Wykstra did not have any duties and although there
were movies to watch, he was still bored (00:48:53:00)
He would sit up on the flight deck and watch planes take off and land and
he eventually helped the man who was supposed to clean the barracks
because he was so bored (00:49:03:00)
Travels around the Pacific (00:49:31:00)
Wykstra was also able to go ashore in Japan several times but he did not spend too much
time in bars there; mostly, he bought china and other items that he wanted (00:49:31:00)
Going ashore in Hong Kong was fabulous (00:49:54:00)
o When he first came aboard the ship, Wykstra hung out with the men in deck crew
who he worked with and even when he became a yeoman, he still hung out with
them because he worked in his own little office by himself (00:50:07:00)
o One time, four of them were in a bar and another man who had just been
promoted and was not treating the others fairly walked into the bar (00:50:23:00)
�
They invite the man who and he sits between Wykstra and another man;
the other men tell him that he has to start straightening up (00:51:04:00)
The man was dismissive and the next thing Wykstra knew, the other three
men were beating him (00:51:30:00)
The man who was being beaten was in his late twenties / early thirties,
meaning he had been in the Navy a little longer than the other men
(00:52:01:00)
The men warned him that if he went back to the ship and reported them,
they might go to the brig but they would eventually get out of it and they
would find him (00:52:11:00)
Instead, the man reported that he had been jumped by some
Chinese people (00:52:23:00)
o Where the men were at, the city was clean and nice (00:53:11:00)
While Wykstra was aboard, the Davidson spent seven months of the Vietnamese coast
and every month, the ship would travel someplace different (00:53:53:00)
Going to Bangkok was a different experience (00:54:09:00)
o While there, a man would hire a cab for the day, not just one trip because it was
cheaper to hire a cab for the day (00:54:20:00)
o The Davidson stopped in Bangkok after about six months, making it one the later
stops, and it seemed like everyone aboard ship “lost it” around then (00:54:40:00)
Wykstra knows of only one man who did not “screw around” with
someone, even the married men who swore they would not cheat on their
wives (00:54:59:00)
o Wykstra and a friend hired a cab for a day and went touring to different locations
while other men from the ship sort of took over a hotel (00:55:17:00)
People who actually lived in the hotel ended up leaving because of how
the men were acting (00:55:41:00)
One man was on a second or third floor balcony and decided he was going
to jump into the hotel’s swimming pool; the pool was only three feet deep
where he wanted to jump but he did it anyway and ended up hurting his
head (00:56:30:00)
The man continued to beg the others to let him leave the ship and
go ashore again, so the last day they were in city, the men relented
and let him go ashore (00:57:04:00)
The man started drinking again and decided he was going to climb
a tree and grab the coconuts in it; he had to hop a fence to do so
and ended up landing onto of a broken beer bottle and split his foot
open (00:57:13:00)
Some other soldiers at the hotel wanted to put a tourniquet on the
foot, but the sailor said no and to just call an ambulance; the man
did eventually pull through (00:57:49:00)
Morale aboard the Davidson was not bad (00:58:19:00)
Wykstra did end up getting into serious trouble once (00:58:44:00)
o While in the Philippines, he was in a bar drinking and an ensign who had just
come aboard the Davidson walked in; Wykstra had introduced himself when the
ensign came aboard, so the ensign sat with Wykstra in the bar (00:58:50:00)
�o Wykstra questioned the ensign, saying that he was an officer and was not
supposed to be in town and not supposed to be seen associating with an enlisted
man like Wykstra (00:59:12:00)
o The ensign told Wykstra not to worry about it and he continued buy drinks for
himself and two Filipino girls, although Wykstra warned him that the girls were
not drinking alcohol, they were drinking tea (00:59:24:00)
o When they got into the bedroom, the girl Wykstra was with said she was from
Manila and Wykstra said he wanted to go there (00:59:51:00)
However, no one on a ship, not even a commander, was allowed an
overnight; a sailor’s rank determined what time he had to be back aboard
the ship (01:00:08:00)
Wykstra had to be back by ten o’clock, a petty officer by eleven, and a
regular officer was midnight (01:00:24:00)
o The girl said she would take Wykstra to Manila, so they planned to meet up later
and go (01:00:38:00)
o Wykstra figured he was going to get in trouble but his brother had been stationed
in Manila and Wykstra figured he could go there then tell his brother how much it
had changed in eight years (01:00:50:00)
o When Wykstra went to the designated spot, the girl was not there, so he had a few
drinks and decided to return to the ship; however, on the way back to the ship,
Wykstra saw the girl and together, they walked and boarded a bus (01:01:11:00)
o When Wykstra and the girl got off the bus, they got into a taxi, which took them
through several small villages before stopping in one and the girl explained that
that was where she lived (01:01:48:00)
o The girl’s house turned out to be a hut made out of bamboo and while Wykstra
was sitting there, almost everyone in the village came up to see him; it eventually
reached the point that they placed him by a window so everyone could see him
(01:02:16:00)
The girl’s father was the chief of police and when they all went to bed,
Wykstra could not belief that the father would send his daughter to be a
prostitute in order to help the family (01:03:19:00)
o The next day, Wykstra and the girl went to the village’s marketplace and when
Wykstra saw kids running around the streets naked, he bought a bunch of
underwear and handed it out to the kids (01:03:52:00)
o The village mayor lived next to the girl’s family and they ended up throwing
Wykstra a dinner that all the men in the village showed up to; when the men
finished eating, the women could eat while the men drank alcohol (01:04:37:00)
The other villagers wanted Wykstra to sing, so they got a guitar and
started playing for him (01:05:52:00)
o The next day, they went to a movie before Wykstra said he had to get back to the
base and the girl had to take him because he did not know how (01:06:11:00)
o The girl eventually took him back and when he boarded the ship, an officer told
Wykstra he was in trouble, although Wykstra explained he had paid someone to
take his place (01:06:32:00)
The officer said he knew Wykstra had an upcoming liberty leave and he
suggested Wykstra stay on the ship, which he did (01:06:56:00)
�
The Davidson eventually left the Philippines and headed back to Vietnam; on the way
back to port, the commander wanted to talk with Wykstra and hear his story and Wykstra
explained that he did more than any ambassador ever did (01:07:11:00)
o The commander said he did not care what Wykstra had done, he knew better and
as punishment, Wykstra was confined to the ship for the next ninety days
(01:07:48:00)
o After going to Vietnam for another thirty days, the Davidson sailed to Hawaii,
where Wykstra was supposed to get off because his tour was ending
(01:08:16:00)
o Wykstra knew some of the men in personnel and when they typed up Wykstra’s
orders, they left off his punishment, he was supposed to go to the barracks for
thirty more days to finish the punishment, and the ship’s XO signed it
(01:08:28:00)
When he was in, Wykstra did not give any thought to staying in the Navy (01:09:04:00)
o To him, if someone wanted to stay in, that was fine but being in the service meant
that someone did not think for themselves and if they did so, they got in trouble;
the men did what they were told and Wykstra could not continue to do that
(01:09:08:00)
Wykstra never actually went ashore in Vietnam (01:09:35:00)
Off all the men Wykstra served with, he wants to know what happened to one man, who
was from Wichita, Kansas, the most (01:09:57:00)
o The man suggested when Wykstra and he get out they go and tour the United
States together (01:10:10:00)
o However, Wykstra said he could not afford it because he needed to save money
for college (01:10:17:00)
o Wykstra got out of the military in 1969 and in 1972, he and three other men did
decide to do a little tour of the country, although one guy eventually dropped out
(01:10:25:00)
They were gone for three months and when they stopped in Wichita,
Wykstra looked the man up and discovered the man had gone right to hell
(01:10:48:00)
He and another man were renting an apartment above a store and
delivering cars to car lots (01:11:03:00)
o Wykstra and the other man spent a lot of time together while in the service; they
would be paid every other weekend, after which the two men would go ashore
(01:11:51:00)
The first weekend they were in Hawaii, both men went ashore and the
second weekend, they were low on money (01:12:05:00)
If Wykstra had duty on a Friday, he would give what money he had to the
man, who would play cards and would usually win, although one time
they had to spend the entire weekend aboard the ship because he lost all
the money (01:12:23:00)
o One time, the two men went to a piano bar and one of the women there was
gorgeous; Wykstra said something to her and after her reaction, Wykstra told the
other man that they needed to go to church (01:13:31:00)
�
After church, the two men went back to the bar and the woman was still
there; Wykstra’s friend started playing pool (01:14:27:00)
At some point, Wykstra had bought a car, an old Chevy that almost always
had something wrong with it, and Wykstra managed to convince the girl to
go with him, his friend, and a man the friend had been shooting pool with
(01:14:41:00)
The four went to a beach they thought was deserted and they decided to go
skinny-dipping (01:15:23:00)
The girl was so drunk that she passed out on the way back and when the
men got her to where she had said she lived, they pulled her out of the car
and left her on the sidewalk (01:16:06:00)
When Wykstra was first on the deck crew, the lieutenant junior-grade who was his boss
did not like him and one time, ordered Wykstra to sandblast part of the deck
(01:17:19:00)
o Wykstra said he had a liberty leave upcoming but the lieutenant canceled it and
made Wykstra do the sandblasting (01:17:49:00)
Most of the time, the enlisted men and officers were kept segregated (01:19:04:00)
o Wykstra never saw an hostility between the two groups except for one time when
the ship was going into port (01:19:12:00)
The commander and XO were both in the pilothouse and at one point, the
commander told the XO to take over because the XO needed to learn the
stuff; the XO was giving the orders and the commander corrected on him
two occasions (01:19:30:00)
After the third time he had to correct a decision, the commander began
yelling at the XO in front of the enlisted personnel in the pilothouse
(01:19:53:00)
o Generally, the officers treated the enlisted personnel okay (01:20:31:00)
The officers tended to throw their weight around and on some occasions,
their decisions were questionable but the enlisted crew could do nothing
about it (01:20:34:00)
The men could definitely tell that some of the officers were career military
(01:20:59:00)
When there was a ship’s reunion, it felt somewhat awkward for Wykstra because he had
only served for two years whereas many of the others had served longer, often four years
and they were much more “gung-ho” for the Navy (01:21:25:00)
When Wykstra was nearing the end of his tour, he had the opportunity to take a test and
become a yeoman but he declined; when asked why he declined, although he would in all
likelihood pass, Wykstra explained that there had been rumors circulating that some of
the sailors might get and early discharge and if he passed the test, he would not get an
early discharge (01:21:47:00)
o Wykstra ended up flunking the test but he did not receive an early discharge
(01:22:31:00)
Had he enlisted a month earlier, Wykstra would have gotten the early
discharge (01:22:48:00)
o When the Davidson sailed back to Vietnam, Wykstra had the opportunity to take
the test again but he told the officer he was going to flunk it again (01:23:02:00)
�o When the men finally got to San Francisco to be discharged, they were waiting in
a large gymnasium when there was an announcement for all the men in personnel
and yeomen of a certain rank to stand up, but Wykstra was not high enough
(01:23:32:00)
All the men who stood ended up receiving at minimum a month-long
extension on their enlistment to help process all the other sailors’
discharges (01:24:34:00)
Post-Military Life / Reflections (01:20:31:00)
Once he finally got out of the Navy, Wykstra returned to working full time and attending
college (01:25:15:00)
o He took as many credits as he could at a local college before transferring to Ferris
State University (01:25:28:00)
o After taking the required courses at Ferris State, he transferred again, this time to
Grand Valley State University, where he took the majority of his elective classes
in law enforcement (01:26:01:00)
o Wykstra ended up with a two-year degree from the local college and a business
degree from Ferris State (01:26:42:00)
After getting his degrees, Wykstra worked as a 2nd shift manager (01:26:52:00)
o It eventually reached the point that his children would be going to school, so
Wykstra asked to start workings days, even if that meant doing less skilled jobs
(01:27:01:00)
o The company honored his request and moved him to working during the day
(01:27:31:00)
Looking back, Wykstra was glad he was in the Navy, he saw a lot of the world, and if he
had to do it again he would, but he still would not enlist for four years (01:28:03:00)
o Had he originally go in for four years, he probably would have taken the yeoman
tests and passed them (01:28:20:00)
When Wykstra left, he had a going away party at his parent’s house, who were going to
visit his brother-in-laws family; everyone knew Wykstra had the party and when his
parents got home, they found out (01:29:09:00)
o The first letter Wykstra got from his mother said that she was disappointed that he
had the party (01:30:19:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WykstraJ
Title
A name given to the resource
Wykstra, James (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wykstra, James
Description
An account of the resource
James Wykstra was born in 1947 in the town of Cutlerville, Michigan. After graduating from high school, Wykstra felt it was his duty to serve in the military. In August 1966, he enlisted in the U.S. Navy Reserves. Following completion of basic training at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center in Chicago, Wykstra returned to Cutlerville and regularly attended the reserve meetings until going on active duty in the summer, 1967. Assigned the to destroyer escort U.S.S. Davidson, Wykstra patrolled along the Vietnamese coast and sailed to numerous locales in the Southwest Pacific, including Japan, Hong Kong, Bangkok, and the Philippines.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-01-13
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/90b3022c68d9a0ba21369910a09fbee1.m4v
f8a717d58c6575186b0faa799d94edbd
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c8dc8e6b24a8d75f3566f3a880e6c1fd.pdf
bc69b24a3969107cd08e7bec509a32ef
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
James Wyatt
Vietnam War
32 minutes 15 seconds
(00:00:06) Early Life, Basic Training and Berlin Wall Crisis
-Born December 4th, 1936.
-Highest rank achieved was Specialist 4th class.
-Drafted into service.
-Knowing that drafting was inevitable, he chose to pre-empt the process and enter in
1960.
-22 years old at the time of entering military service.
-Chosen as a temporary training sergeant during basic training.
-Training: 15 mile hikes with a 40lb backpack.
-Chose other leaders from the groups.
-Encouraged soldiers as their energy waned.
-Made friends with squad leaders he worked with.
-Flew to Berlin with Military Air Transportation Service (MATS).
-Stationed in Mannheim.
-Locals were mostly friendly.
-During the duration of his time in Berlin, the Berlin Wall was built.
-Afterward the locals became noticeably friendlier to their presence. Soldiers became
more religious.
(00:05:00)
-Sent to NATO school.
-Dispersed information to troops and trained them in fundamentals.
-The Berlin Wall crisis caused extensions on the troop’s service periods.
-After his year and a half was up he was extended by a mere few days before he returned
to the US.
-Communicated with his mother often in the mail during his time abroad.
-Limited places to socialize with other English speakers.
-Attempted to learn some German.
-Due to the Berlin Crisis, there was no ability to take leisurely language classes.
-Sent out to the field much more often.
-Soviet threat seemed intimidating at the time.
-Being somewhat isolated abroad.
(00:10:00)
-His return from military life was treated by the public with some degree of skepticism and
suspicion.
-Not anger or derision like some Vietnam veterans.
-After returning home he became a police officer.
-Had an interest in the job for a long time.
-Grand Rapids police were hiring.
-Since he was from Grand Rapids he decided to apply.
�-Personally believes that the containment in Vietnam was the right thing to do.
-In Mannheim he was stationed at what was once a Panzer building.
-Remnants of the Polish army were still present at the time.
-Due to the fact Russia was present in Poland.
(00:16:10)
-Believes that Vietnam War was mishandled and hampered by political posturing.
-Cuban Missile Crisis was quite scary.
-Believes that JFK handled it well.
-Thoughts on Watergate scandal: intentions were good, but methods were not.
-The fall of the Berlin Wall was emotional and a great moment for him to view on TV.
(00:26:00)
-His brother was in WWII.
-Involved in major battles such as the Philippines
-Aboard USS Washington.
-Has a rather “military family”.
-Older brother in the service.
-Uncles and cousins as well.
-Father was in Turkey in WWI.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_WyattJ1816V
Title
A name given to the resource
Wyatt, James E (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-23
Description
An account of the resource
James Wyatt was born in 1936. At the age of 22 he pre-empted an inevitable drafting by enlisting in 1960. During his military career his highest rank achieved was Specialist 4th class. Although his service was during the Vietnam War era, he was located in Mannheim, Germany in the time of the Berlin Wall Crisis. Wyatt was also sent to NATO school where he was able to train troops in the fundamentals. After being discharged he returned to the US and became a police officer.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wyatt, James E.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Wyatt, Peyton (Interviewer)
Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Moving Image
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb6752640ffee6ded69947d77009286e.m4v
46fbf805cf4a8951cd3c8ebb15be92ef
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/929f2ab8353b933b1b3ce3821266258e.pdf
9d169cf716152924a9297f5a667eaed3
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Bob Wright
Length of interview (49:00)
(00:05) Background
Born in Worcester, Massachusetts, on February 26, 1922. (00:13)
Father worked in a company that made looms. (00:37)
Family struggled during the Depression. Describes some of the odd jobs his father took.
(00:53)
Dropped out of school halfway through his senior year of high school. (01:42)
Worked as an apprentice [tool and dime maker] in 1940. (02:09)
Received deferments because he worked in a defense industry. (02:32)
Decided to enlist in the Air Force in Boston, Massachusetts, before leaving to Fort
Devens for processing. (02:56)
(04:02) Basic Training
Traveled by train to New Orleans, Louisiana, for basic training. The train traveled
through
Canada, Detroit, and Chicago first. (04:05)
Describes the uncomfortable living conditions on the train. (04:35)
During the drills, he would get nosebleeds. Consequently, he became a ‘gopher’ and
delivered messages. (06:01)
First went to school there for machine work. During an interview after his schooling, he
indicated that he was interested in working on airplances and was sent to the Aircraft
Institute in Kansas City, MO. (05:16)
Stayed in a hotel while in Kansas City with three other men. Stayed there for six months.
(06:30)
Worked from 3pm - 11pm. Were allowed to go out to bars for about four hours. (07:33)
Worked on electrical and mechanical aspects of aircraft. (08:13)
Was sent to school at the Douglass Aircraft plant in Los Angeles where they made A-20s,
which was an attack
bomber that fit a three person crew. (09:03)
Within weeks of graduation, the government was criticized for sending people into action
without adequate small arms training. Their outfit was sent back to basic training in
Kearns, Utah for two weeks. (10:20)
Traveled to Kissimmee, Florida by train to serve guard duty before the decision was
made for
him to go overseas. (12:03)
Traveled to San Francisco, California, by troop train. Stayed there for a couple weeks.
Describes his activities during his stay. (13:49)
Departed from California by victory ship. The ship traveled alone and traveled in a
zig-zag pattern and arrived at Guadalcanal on November 5. (15:14)
(16:28) Service Overseas
Describes policing the area around Henderson Field. (16:28)
One of his friends was a carpenter, so he constructed platforms and frames for their tents.
�(17:53)
Describes the living and weather conditions. (18:15)
Describes Japanese air attacks at this time. At one time, the Japanese had bombed an
ammunition depot. (18:44)
Their planes arrived in December. (19:12)
While serving guard duty on the beaches, he was sleep deprived because he worked all
night. When he confronted the first sergeant about it, he was written up for ‘trying to
shoot
him.’ (19:40)
Was transferred to 68th Fighter Squadron. Was supposed to join them in Bougainville
which was being taken at the time. Describes staying on the Treasury Islands for three
weeks while waiting to meet his squadron. (21:57)
Worked on P-39s with a crew chief. (25:06)
The plane he had worked on never returned from its mission and he was sent to work in
an ordnance unit until another place was ready to be worked on. (26:21)
Requested to stay with the ordnance unit. While working there, he helped clean the guns,
reload the ammunition and bombs as planes returned. He primarily worked on P-39s and P38s. (26:40)
Describes the difficulty of living on Bougainville due to constant Japanese attacks.
(27:33)
Didn’t lose many men during this time. (29:53)
Stayed in Bougainville for a few months before moving to New Guinea. (30:40)
Describes accidentally burning his hand while staying in [Hollandia] for a few weeks.
(31:00)
Outfit traveled to New Guinea. Rarely saw the locals. (32:19)
Their main base was on Middleburg Island, New Guinea. (33:10)
Was based on Middleburg for quite a while. (35:04)
Charles Lindbergh personally taught their P-38 pilots how to conserve gas that allowed
them to
travel as far as China to drop bombs. (35:16)
Traveled to Mindoro Island in the Philippines during the Invasion of Palawan. Signed up
to be a truck driver. (36:33)
By the time they had arrived, Palawan had already been heavily bombed. There were no
Japanese, but they had left several booby traps. (38:48)
The natives were very welcoming. (39:28)
Describes his reaction to the end of the war. At the time, they had received orders to go to
China but never went because of the conclusion of the war. Describes their relief. (40:35)
Left Palawan and went to Leyte in September. (41:45)
Nine men were sent home on a B-25 which exploded in the sky. Recalls that it was the
worst thing that’s ever happened to him. (42:11)
Returned home on a very small boat called an APA. (43:05)
(44:49) Life after Service
Landed in San Francisco, CA. Recalls that the troops weren’t received well. (44:49)
Enjoyed eating real food, especially fresh milk. (45:21)
Had to wait for a plane in Oakland for a couple weeks. Finally landed in Texas and had to
wait longer due to fog. Returned home two days before Christmas. (46:04)
Returned to his old job in February. Regretted that he didn’t go back and finish high
�school. (46:59)
Has five daughters who are all happily married now. (47:36)
Recalls that he “learned how to drink” while in the service. (47:46)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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WrightR
Title
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Wright, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2009
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Wright, Robert
Description
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Bob Wright was born in Massachusetts in 1922. Enlisted in the Air Force during World War II after dropping out of high school. He was trained to work with the electrical and mechanical aspects of military aircraft in Kansas City and at the Douglass plant in California. Overseas, his service began at Guadalcanal and involved "policing Henderson Field" and guard duty. He was transferred to the 68th Figher Squadron in Bougainville where he worked on P-39s. Eventually, he requested to work with a difference ordinance where he primarily worked on P-39s and P-38s. His subsequent service was in New Guinea and the Philippines.
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army Air Forces
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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2009-09-16
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bd79b9c5b9a382e1cad25e63eef0d1ba.mp4
518a004e3ba621b6d7ccb90eca8ffd85
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb39d8abf117ce1a1590f29c35b68c82.pdf
160864586cbf7ec2d299df8709eac64d
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
MICHAEL WOODS
Born: Natchez, Mississippi
Resides: Alto, Michigan
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, February 18, 2012
Interviewer: Can you begin for us by filling in a little bit of your own background?
To start with, where and when were you born?
I was born in a small town called Natchez, Mississippi, and it‘s famous today for tourists
who like to tour southern mansions, and it‘s called the pilgrimage. I was born in 1943,
and my family left Natchez and moved to New Orleans when I was about seven years
old, so I grew up in New Orleans, Louisiana. I dropped out of high school in the twelfth
grade. The principal and I had a discussion on how the school should be run, and I lost.
So, I-Interviewer: Up to that point had you been doing relatively well in school or...
I played football, and sports kept me in school. The schools were in poor neighborhoods.
The idea of not being able to dress appropriately for school was embarrassing to a
number of us, so the sports kept us in school until something happened and then we
dropped out. 1:11 I tried to join the Marine Corps when I was fifteen, I came from a
very poor background, and when you live in poor neighborhoods it‘s extremely difficult
not to be in trouble. My friends were being killed just before I got there, right after I‘d
left, so I knew it was a matter of time before I would be involved in something, so I
wanted to get out of New Orleans as quickly as possible. The only escape for me, as I
could see it, was the Marine Corps; so at fifteen I went down to enlist. I had to fill out a
1
�mountain of paperwork, of course, and I had to lie about my birthday. I was caught
because I put two different dates on two different pieces of paperwork, so obviously I
didn‘t go. 1:59 As soon as I turned seventeen--Interviewer: Let’s back up for just a moment. What motivated you to chose the
Marine Corps?
My dad had been in the Marine Corps, was in the Marine Corps, and he had been one of
the longest serving black Marines at the time. He had gone through the Marine boot
camp during WWII, so he was a role model for me. My family wasn‘t together, but my
dad, I saw him twice a year, at Christmas time and during the summer, so that was the
motivating factor for me in choosing the Marine Corps. Besides, the group of kids that I
hung around with were tough kids, so that was a challenge for us.
Interviewer: Go back to seventeen.
At seventeen, if my mother signed for me I could enlist, and I talked her into signing. I
enlisted and went to San Diego for Marine basic training. From there to Marine recruit
regiment, which teaches you infantry tactics, and from there into a Marine Corps warrior
combat outfit. 3:07
Interviewer: Describe a little bit the actual physical training process. What are you
doing at these different stages and how well did you do with the different parts of it?
I actually graduated from Marine Corps boot camp as a platoon honor man. The platoon
honor man is awarded a set of dress blues by the Leatherneck Magazine if you were the
top recruit in your platoon, and I was. Coming from the segregated south, the
psychological experience of basic training was extremely challenging. Here‘s a white
guy with a ―Smokey Bear‖ hat who's in your face twenty-four seven. What I didn‘t
2
�realize at the time, of course, was it wasn‘t just my face he was in, he was in everybody‘s
face, but I took it personally, so it was a psychological challenge. Physically, I‘d been an
athlete, played football, basketball, and ran track, so it wasn‘t challenging physically, but
certainly psychologically. 4:05 At that time Marine Corps basic training was sixteen
weeks, and I think the infantry training regiment training may have been six weeks. That
was the period of time that you were away from home before you could return.
Interviewer: What did you do to sort of cope with, or deal with, the stress of that
situation you were in? I mean, being treated in this boot camp fashion. How did
you handle that?
In my platoon there were—I think we may have started out with about forty-eight
recruits. Of the forty-eight recruits there were only three blacks, maybe eight Hispanics,
two native Americans, so human argues [?], when you had opportunity, you talked to
others who were going through the same stressful situation as you were, and that helped.
5:02 Letters from home, that helped, and being put in a leadership role early, believe it
or not, also helped, and as the platoon honor man, that was the right guy position, the drill
instructors held you accountable for the behavior of others. So, there wasn‘t a lot of time
to concentrate on your situation. It was a busy time, and I‘m not sure that boot camp isn‘t
set up for—in just that manner, you know, to keep the recruit's mind off those things that
don‘t have anything to do with the Marine Corps, and you are busy twenty-four seven.
You are told when to sleep, when to eat, etc.
Interviewer: Do you think it helped to have recognition? You're being treated in
badly on one level, but somebody must have thought you were worth something at
the same time. How early did they single you out a little bit?
3
�When you initially report into the recruit regiment, you are in a holding situation until
there are enough recruits to form three platoons to start training. 6:15 One of the things
that you recognize early on is, if you are assigned the task, you are held responsible for
doing that task. If you fail, you are punished to some degree, and if you succeed, you are
rewarded to some degree. The system, in the military, though stressful and demanding,
was the fairest system that I had been exposed to at the time. I think when you look back
at that, that‘s really what you‘re looking for. You‘re looking for—where can my ability
take me? Just based on my personal ability, nothing else, just my ability. 7:04
I think
boot camp is one of those places, or the military itself, is one of those places that operates
under that principle.
Interviewer: So you caught on to that fairly quickly and then used it?
Yeah, sure—it was a matter of getting over having this guy in my face twenty-four seven,
and that didn‘t happen right away. About halfway through training you started to
understand that you weren‘t in that boat by yourself, there are forty-eight people here,
and some of them are hurting worse than I am, and they‘re not black, ok? So once you
catch on to that, then you understand you‘re being judged on your leadership qualities,
your perseverance, and your ―can do‖ attitude. Those were the people that were awarded
the promotions to PFC, and given the responsibilities.
Interviewer: So you had sixteen weeks of basic and some additional infantry
training beyond that. You did six weeks, or whatever, and that’s all in one place?
8:13
No, basic training was in San Diego, in the city of San Diego, down town. Infantry
regiment training was at Camp Pendleton, in the mountains of Camp Pendleton, if you
4
�can think of California having mountains in that area. That training was about infantry
tactics. What are the duties of a squad leader? How does a squad work as a unit of a
platoon? What is the smallest unit in the Marine Corps, which is the fire team, how does
interlocking fire work? How is that integrated into artillery fire etc? So, you go through
six weeks of that, and you are exposed to the gas chamber, and you understand that right
quick. So, it was quite different and you were treated a little bit above a recruit, and you
are now called a Marine, but your activities are still controlled twenty-four hours seven.
9:07 You did have the opportunity to have liberty. That means to go into town, and I
think of the six weeks we may have had the opportunity to do that two or three times.
Interviewer: Once you complete that course, what happens next?
Then you are given twenty days leave, so you can go back home. The experience of
leaving this training and going back to be with your buddies after this period of time is
amazing. You find you don‘t have anything in common with them any more. You find
that the things they are doing seem childish and not grown up, so you lose that
connection that you had with these friends, they‘re still your friends, but you look at them
in a different way, and you start feeling differently about yourself. You see yourself as a
cut above, maybe, and maybe that‘s arrogance, but it‘s true. 10:08 It‘s true not only
from my perspective, but form others that I‘ve shared this with.
Interviewer: You have that moment—did your family notice the difference?
Yeah, they did, but my mother thought I should still be in my ten o‘clock at night, and we
had to have a discussion about that, you know. Yeah, the difference was noticed by my
family, and obviously they were pretty proud. I graduated from one of the toughest basic
5
�trainings in the military service and I had done it with honors, so not only were my
parents proud, but they managed to get it in the local newspaper.
Interviewer: Now where did they send you next?
From there I was sent to –I‘m trying to remember—each battalion, or regiment, has a
different area of Camp Pendleton, so I went to Camp Pendleton to Delta 1-7, which is
Delta Company, First Battalion, Seventh Marine Regiment, which is part of the First
Marine Division. The First Marine Division home is at Camp Pendleton, California.
11:11 Bur there are different camps. There‘s Margarita, which is the home of the 5th
Marine Regiment, there‘s Onofre, which is where Seventh Marines were located, and
then there‘s another area for the 1st Marines, so I think I was at camp Onofre. During this
time I‘m a new recruit reporting into a combat unit, and there‘s a cycle that you must go
through, and the way that cycle works is that the guys that had just come from a thirteen
month tour, in Okinawa, or in the West Pac, stay behind to train the new recruits that
come in, and that‘s called a six-week lock on phase. Again, it‘s integrating the squad
tactics into platoon tactics, into company tactics up to battalion and regiment. So you
pull operations, combat operations against other units at Camp Pendleton. 12:04 That
lasts about six weeks during this lock on phase, and you are actually preparing to make
your thirteen-month tour overseas. Once that six-week lock on phase is over, then the
guys that stayed behind to train you are transferred out of the infantry into support units.
So, after we finished the lock on phase, I was then transferred, the whole unit, was then
transferred from the 1st Marine Division to the 3rd Marine Division, which is in Okinawa.
The company then became I Company, 3rd Battalion, 3rd Marines.
6
�Interviewer: Ok now, when you were in this lock on phase doing this six-weeks,
when you were with the returning back from overseas, what was this, 1963 or was
this still 1962? Do you remember roughly when that was?
Yeah, I said we actually left to go over to Okinawa in January of 1963 because I was
married and my daughter was born several days before I got on the ships. 13:13 We
went overseas in 1963.
Interviewer: The reason I’m asking that—when the veterans giving you additional
sort of tactical training etc., these were not really people that were combat veterans
yet, were they? They had still been on peacetime duty--had anybody been to
Vietnam by then?
No, there was a presence in Vietnam, but it was mostly Army and they were trainers
rather than combat troops. There was a term used by them, which I can‘t remember right
now. No, they were not combat troops, and I don‘t think the Marine Corps had seen
combat, maybe since the Korean conflict.
Interviewer: So, that would mean that the kind of tactics you were learning were
still conventional warfare, what would have been done in Korea or even in WWII.
That is correct. 14:01
Interviewer: All right, so now you’re sent over and you go to Okinawa. How did
they get you physically out to Okinawa?
The USS Mann, which is considered a troop transport, and at that time everyone that
went over, went over by ship, and you were part of a fleet, which was usually carriers,
battleships, and the troop transport ship. So, the whole regiment went over by ship.
Interviewer: What was that trip like?
7
�For a person that had never been on a ship before it was exciting, and it was sickening.
One of the duties—when you‘re on ship, of course the navy is in charge, but the Marines
have duties on ship. I was assigned to the laundry, and the laundry is in the very bottom
of the ship where it‘s always hot and sweaty, and steaming. On the way over you go
through what‘s called typhoon alley, so if you take this trip at a certain time of the year,
you can pretty much bet that you‘re going to hit a typhoon, and we did. 15:06 When
you hit a typhoon the ship‘s bow moves up and down in the water, and if you‘re down in
a very hot steamy area, you will learn quickly what seasickness really is. So, needless to
say, I got seasick, and I was in my bunk, and I thought I was going to die, and I was so
sick, it was the first time I refused an order. When I was told that it was time to go to
work, I said, ―I‘m not getting out of this rack‖. Well, they figured out I was sick, so I
didn‘t get court martialed or anything, and I was sick for two days before I could finally
get out of bed. So, that was a thirty-day voyage, I think, and it‘s a straight through
voyage, and after the storm, and after the seasickness, then you spend your time on ship
playing Whist, that‘s the card game of choice until you get over. 16:05 You bond
during that time, with a lot of people.
Interviewer: You get over to Okinawa, then what kind of a setup did you have
there, what kind of duties did you have?
Okinawa‘s an island that‘s about twelve miles wide and about sixty miles long. I actually
think it‘s the most populated area per square mile on earth. During that time your money
had to be converted to Yen, and there was 360 Yen to a dollar, to show you, with the way
the economy is now and how far they have come. There were no paved roads, and most
of the roads—the main road was paved, but all the other roads were dirt roads. There
8
�were areas in Okinawa that catered to white military, and areas that catered to black
military. There was only one area for the blacks and it was called ―4-Corners‖, or Koza,
Okinawa. 17:08 Koza was quite a taxi drive from where my unit was, so the idea was to
make sure the last taxi doesn‘t leave at night, so you can get back to the base before
morning. It was the first experience with a foreign culture, primarily Japanese, but they
are really Ryukyus not Japanese. I picked up a little bit of the language, enjoyed the
people, but at seventeen or eighteen you are about learning the wild side of life, so not
too much cultural experience, but certainly some. From Okinawa you will become
what‘s called a float battalion. The Marine Corps had a battalion that‘s on the water
twenty-four seven year around, and they‘re ready to hit any hot spot in the fat east, so you
are a ready battalion. 18:03 You‘re floating with the fleet and some of the stops that
you would make would be, maybe three days in Hong Kong for R&R, rest and relaxation,
you may pull jungle warfare problems in the Philippines, so you may be there for three or
four weeks, so there is an opportunity to got to the Philippines, Taiwan was another port
of call. That‘s exciting, so you‘re exposed to many different cultures. Cold weather
training at Mount Fuji, Japan, so you get an opportunity, and at the base of Fuji is a little
Japanese village called Moji, Japan, and you get a chance to pull some liberty there, and
get exposed to the cuisine, which I really enjoyed. It took me a minute to eat Sushi, and I
didn‘t find anything in Japan that I wouldn‘t try. I didn‘t particularly like seaweed, but in
the Philippines I ran into something that I couldn‘t force myself to try. 19:03 There is
what we would consider a delicacy, but they eat it on a regular basis and it‘s called a
Balut. A Balut is an embryo that‘s not complete, that‘s in the egg, it‘s buried in the sand
to mature, and the way you eat it is to crack the shell and there‘s this little guy looking up
9
�at you and you suck it out. So, regardless of how much Sake I drank, I couldn‘t bring
myself to eat that. So, that was interesting, so I tell that story quite often.
Interviewer: Did you also go to Korea, or did you not get there?
We did go to Korea. We pulled a problem in Korea as an amphibious landing, we were
there for maybe a week, but not outside of the field, we didn‘t pull liberty in any of the
towns in Korea.
Interviewer: So, you were practicing amphibious landing. Is that climbing down
into landing craft?
Yes it is, another experience, especially if the waters are rough. 20:12 You come down
off a ship on a cargo net. Now, you are fully combat loaded, at the time I think I was in
machine guns, so not only are you carrying, probably, a seventy pack, your rifle, and a
machine gun, if that‘s what you‘re doing. You are fully loaded, and as you come down
the waves bob up and down, so It‘s a possibility that you can put your left foot down off
of this cargo net and it‘s touching the bottom of the boat, but by the time you get your
next foot down the boat is down there, so needless to say, a lot of people fell off. The
boat‘s interesting because they had old life preservers that you put on. The kind that was
so big that the back of your head tilted forward. 21:02 The PT boats that you get in, the
amphibious vehicles, they circle in the water, and they have to wait until everybody‘s
loaded before they start to the beach. That‘s always good for seasickness, if not from
you, from the guy that‘s pucking on you from behind or next to you. Once that signal is
give, then to the beach you go. That can be another interesting experience, remember
you‘re carrying this heavy equipment, and depending on how far the sand barges out,
depends on how close to the beach the landing craft can get. If the sand barges out when
10
�you jump off you could be in water to your chin, or land right on the beach, and I was
always the unfortunate guy.
Interviewer: Now, were these kind of old-fashioned WWII style landing craft with
the door that drops down in the front?
Yes
Interviewer: So, you weren’t going in on tracks or amphibious vehicles?
No, this was 1963 and we were still a conventional warfare force. 22:04
Interviewer: So, did you spend a full year based in Okinawa or were you using it as
your central base and then going out? How much time do you think you spent on
the ships as a battalion at sea or in foreign places rather than on Okinawa?
I think the floating battalion phase of that tour, maybe three or four months. I don‘t
remember exactly, maybe three or four months, and during that floating phase you stop at
these different ports, Hong Kong, Korea, the Philippines and Taiwan. The time that you
spend ashore was really based on how long the operation would be. It wasn‘t—you
weren‘t there any great length of time, most of your time was actually spent on the water.
When President Kennedy was assonated we were a floating battalion at that point. 23:03
I remember being woke up early that morning, two or three o‘clock in the morning, and
being told that the president was assassinated, and I rolled over and went back to sleep. I
didn‘t—guys were playing jokes on each other all the time, so I didn‘t believe it. Of
course, the next morning there was a formation on the deck to tell us that had really
happened. Now, during that floating battalion phase also, is our first introduction to
Vietnam. The new regime was in place, they had just overthrown the old regime, junta,
that was there, and because we were the floating battalion, our mission was to go in and
11
�pull out the American civilians. We had actually been transferred to an aircraft carrier, we
had been issued five rounds of ammunition and flack gear, we were on the deck of the
Oriskany and ready to board helicopters when the new regime had promised American
civilians safety, and we called off the operation, and that was 1963. 24:09 So, that was
our first experience with Vietnam, and I had never even heard of the country before that.
Interviewer: How much longer were you in Okinawa after that?
After the floating battalion, you come back and you are probably the senior residents on
the island in your preparation for leaving. When we came back and I was involved in
track and field, I ran a relay, I was a member of the Marine Corps, they had three football
teams over there, the Streaks, the Strikers, and the Royals, and I played for the Streaks.
So, it‘s sort of a down time, you do some operations, but you‘re not in the field nearly as
much. It‘s a good time, a time to get out and mingle with the public, and if you‘re an
athlete you can participate, and that sort of thing. 25:07 So, maybe we were rotated
within the next three or four months.
Interviewer: Now, when they rotate you out, what happens to you then?
Remember, at this time you‘re part of a unit. You‘re a regimental unit that‘s moving
from place to place, so on your rotation back to the states, the first thing that happens if
you have thirty days leave coming, so you‘re on vacation for twenty or thirty days.
Interestingly enough, I found if I took a twenty day vacation and went back to New
Orleans, I was so bored that I would stay fifteen days and go back to the base, you know,
or if I took thirty days, I would maybe stay twenty and go back. Once you get back you
are the senior people in the company and you are waiting for the recruits to come in, so
you can take them through their six-week lock on phase, so you have completed a cycle.
12
�26:00 Now, once that cycle is completed, what is supposed to happen is you are to now
receive orders out of a combat unit and into a support type unit, a truck company or
supply type unit. Most of my friends that came back with me—we had taken the new
recruits through their lock on cycle and we were waiting for orders, and most of my
friends had received their orders. I was waiting, kind of alphabetical, I guess, Woods,
you know—well, while I‘m waiting for my orders—BOOM—Vietnam, so the first
combat unit of any size to leave, Marine unit to leave, was about to happen. They were
now filling these units. We weren‘t the first unit to go to Vietnam; the first unit had
come from the Brigade in Hawaii. They had already gone, so this was the stateside unit,
and what they were doing was beefing up the 7th Marine Regiment. That‘s where I
started off, I had gone to Okinawa and I had become a 3rd Marine Regiment, I came back
and I was in the 5th Marine Regiment, and now I receive orders right back to the same
company, the same battalion, and the same division where I started, Delta Company, 1st
battalion, 7th Marines. 27:16 So, a tour of duty overseas is thirteen months, and at this
point I had about eight months to do in the Marine Corps, so how can you send me back
over for a thirteen month tour? So, when I reported in, the first thing I did was request
―mass‖, that means you want to see the CO, and my complaint was that I had just come
back from an overseas tour, I shouldn‘t be here, I have only eight months to do, and he
looked up from his desk and said, ―I‘m in the same boat, report in to your platoon‖, so I
did. The Marine Corps solved the problem for me though, what they did was to give
everyone in the Marine Corps a four month involuntary extension, so I had my thirteen
months to do. 28:04 From there I reported in to Delta 1/7, obviously, and back to
Okinawa we went. Because we were the first group to leave the states to go over, and
13
�remember, as I mentioned before, we were a conventional warfare organization, we had
to quickly learn jungle warfare tactics. There is a part of Okinawa that‘s in the northern
portion, in the hills, and it‘s called the Northern Training Area, NTA. So, NTA had
trainers set up to teach guerilla training, expose you to what a punji pit is and some of the
booby traps that the Vietnamese had set up. My company was the first company to go
through the training, and as a result of that we became the host company; we trained the
rest of the battalion and the regiment that moved up. After NTA, we then went to
Vietnam, and the area for us was Chu Lai area in Vietnam. 29:07 Chu Lai was on the
Song Tan River and our job was to control the river. The river had a small island in the
middle, so boats going on the river would go one way on one side and come the other
way on the other side. We had a 106 [recoilless rifle?], which is a big artillery piece, set
up on a hill, and the way you aim a 106 is with a .50 caliber [machine gun] that sits on
the top and fires tracer rounds, so if you want to hit something, you shoot the 50 caliber
with a tracer round, and wherever that tracer round hits, you fire the gun, and that‘s
where it will land too. To give you an idea of the impact of a 106, if you are lying on the
ground next to one that goes off, you rise up off it, so it‘s a heavy weapon. There would
be a squad that‘s down on the island and they would search the boats and check
identification. Occasionally, you would get a boat that would run the block, so you
would call up to the 106, and you would identify the boat and then the 106 would take
care of that. 30:17 So, we stayed on the Song Tan River, and pulled operations from
there, and he interesting part about that set up is that the first night that we moved in to
relieve Charlie company, who had been there before us, the VC came over our radio
signals and told us that they would see us tonight. Well, we haven‘t had combat, and we
14
�were young and ―gung ho‖, so we welcomed them. That night they came in, they came
in through barbed wire, conertina wire, trip flares, Claymore mines, mosquitoes as big as
helicopters, and they came in nude with the exception of their cartridge belts and
weapons. 31:08 They reason they were nude is because you can feel what touches your
skin as you move, so they didn‘t set off anything. We knew they had come in. They
were in our command post throwing grenades into tents, and needless to say, that was a
tense night. The next morning there were bodies everywhere. We repelled them with a
minimal amount of casualties. From there we went on two sweeps where we backed the
North Vietnamese up to a river, they had no escape, so they came out and that was
conventional warfare, that‘s a Marine Corps game, so that was over. Another operation
that we went on that sticks in my mind more than the others is—one morning we were to
mount the helicopters in a battalion size operation, hit a LZ, a landing zone, and sweep an
area. 32:16 Well, we got to the landing zone about dusk, we ran some patrols to see
what was in the area, we ran into a unit, and this was my squad that was on patrol, and we
couldn‘t tell how large it was because we were approaching a rice paddy dyke and
turning left. One of the guys picked up a Vietnamese unit on the other side of the dyke
turning left also, going in the opposite direction. Got on the radio to find out if we had
friendly troops, we did not, so we engaged them in fire, they did not return fire, so we
didn‘t know what size unit it was. You have to report that to intelligence, after, our
patrol, were back in the area, and some snipers fire is coming off the hill, my team goes
up, we look for the sniper, we can‘t find him, but he knows where we are because you
can hear bullets whizzing past your ear, and even hear them as they cut the air, it makes a
whizzing sound. 33:19 So, we thought that he won that day, so we came back off the
15
�hill without finding him. When we gave our report we saw the Hueys some miles away,
over a hill, and there were about five of them and they were lighting the hill up, so we
knew somebody is in trouble. There was a term used in Vietnam, and the term was called
―Sparrow Hawk‖, and ―Sparrow Hawk‖ is a rescue unit, and that title is assigned to
different units at different time. What that means is , if there is an organization in the
field and they run into more than they can handle, they get on the radio and they call
―Sparrow Hawk‖. Your unit then is supposed to go to their rescue, and we were the
―Sparrow Hawk‖ for this unit that was being hit. 34:04 So, even before we could eat,
we had to pack up and start up that hill. As we moved up the hill in the twilight, it‘s a
good thing we had to move because we could see that the unit that we had shot up was a
massive size unit, and they were moving in on our positions as we were moving up the
hill. We held most of the night and those hills were extremely steep. The guy in front of
me was carrying a three front fire rocket launcher, and I know he was hurting because in
addition to that he had to carry his rifle and his rifle ammo and stuff, so at times I thought
I should help him, but I was hurting myself. We took several breaks and we got to the
unit at dawn the next day. These guys had walked into, or been lured into and ambush
that had been pulled off by a battalion the size of Vietnam, and they had destroyed this
unit, there were bodies everywhere. 35:04 There was one guy in this unit who was
hiding behind a rock and he was saying, ―don‘t go over there, they‘re over there too,
they‘re all over the place, they‘re everywhere‖, and when the corpsmen got to him, they
had to evacuate him, he was—you know, what he had seen upset him quite a bit.
Interviewer: Was this a company size unit?
It was a company size unit.
16
�Interviewer: How much of it was left do you think?
What we saw, what I saw, were maybe eight guys. What we picked, my squad, I was
squad leader at the time, and we were assigned an area to pick up bodies and load them
on the LZ. We must have picked up eighteen bodies. Now, there were other squads
doing the same thing, and you didn‘t see the whole area. 36:04 My memory hits me
because I thought I had assigned my squad to do—everybody had an assignment and we
lost one that we later saw in the bush, so a team leader of mine and I had to carry this
guy, and we carried him on a poncho. I was in the front and his arm fell out of the
poncho and every time I took a step his arm hit the back of the leg. His arm was hanging
by a thread and he was shot from his feet to his head. It must have been one hell of a
battle because no one had any ammo left. This was a serious fight. For a long time I
would wake up at night and feel that arm hitting in the back of my leg. Where his blood
had gotten on my utility, it was there, and when I got the opportunity to throw it away I
did, because I could always smell it. 37:06 You can‘t get rid of the smell of death.
Another incident that sticks out in my mind was maybe a week before it was time for me
to rotate out of the unit—when we reported onto the 7th Marines out of Camp Pendleton,
and proud of going to Vietnam, your unit cohesion was broken because you‘re pulling
Marines from all over the Marine Corps to fill a unit, not a unit that you have been with.
So, you go overseas with some new guys that you have to bond with, and the ones that
you bond with best are those that you work closely with, which is your fire team, four
guys, and your squad, which is thirteen guys. So, my squad, before I was promoted to
squad leader, which was a result of an ambush, my team consisted of a guy named
―Tihi‖, a native American from a reservation in Arizona, I think, John J. Gianelli, a
17
�boxer, Italian, from Hoboken New Jersey, O‘Brien, a big real strong Irish guy that
smoked cigars, and me, so they kind of called us the ―mod squad‖. 38:18 We were real
proud of that, and in fact; we would volunteer to take the duties that others didn‘t want
because we knew a secret. We would volunteer for point on all patrols, and we ran
patrols every third day. The reason we volunteered for the points is because when you
walk into an ambush, unless it‘s an L shaped ambush, they usually let the point pass and
hit the main body. In addition to that we are the eyes and ears of the squad or the
platoon, so you know what‘s going on and you have control and direction, and we
enjoyed that, so we volunteered for the point. This patrol that we went on was an
interesting patrol because the last time we had moved into this same area we could see
where the VC had been improving their position, and we got hit every time we went into
this village. 39:16 this time it was different. The hit us, and you could see that the
position were being improved. So, the night before the patrol is when the squad leaders
would meet with the platoon commander, we would get our marching orders, who‘s
going to be flank, who‘s going to be point, what direction we‘re taking etc. When the
squad leader came back to meet with the team leaders, me, he gave us this patrol route,
and I said, ―Does Lieutenant remember they‘re improving their positions, and we‘re
walking into this stuff? ―If we take this route it‘s going to be Purple Heart day did you
tell him that?‖ And the squad leader said, ―No, you go tell him‖, and I said, ―Ok, I will‖,
so I did. 40:02 I went to talk to the Lieutenant and made a suggestion on how we might
avoid this, and he gave me a lesson on military tactics, and my suggestion, we were going
to split machine guns, and you never split your machine gun, so we‘re up and we have
point again. So, I met with my team, and we had to go across this rice paddy dyke, which
18
�is only three feet wide, maybe, and once you‘re on the other side of the dyke you‘re in the
village. The idea was for us to run as fast as we could across this dyke. As soon as we
get on the other side, rather than proceeding to the core of the village, we‘re going to set
up a perimeter until the rest of the platoon gets over, and then we‘ll pick point up again,
but we don‘t want to get this separated, not with these improvements that we‘ve been
seeing. 41:01 So, we set up on the side of the dyke before the run, and I said, ―go‖, and
for some reason Gianelli‘s the point, Tihi‘s behind him, and they ran halfway to the dyke
and stopped, and as soon as they stopped the 4th of July happened, and everything just
broke loose. The first round got Gianelli, we use to wear our magazines upside down, we
had M14s, not 16s, and it was easier to get them out that way. The first round hit him
and took the magazine guide into his leg, so it got him right in the—hit the femur vein,
bleeding quite a bit, and when things calmed down we—it took us a while to get the
helicopter in, it was extremely hot, like it always was, gangrene had already started to set
in, and finally we got him evacuated. 42:09 I never saw him again, but it is my
understanding that he lost part of his leg. The reason that bothers me is, Gianelli came
from a fighter family. His dad, his uncle, his cousins, they were all boxers, so when his
tour was up that‘s what he was going to do. Now, he had been training since he was a
young kid, and he was good, he was good, and Gianelli never realized his dream, you
know. The squad leader got killed that day, so I got promoted to squad leader. Before
the day was over we walked into three ambushes, two going out and one coming back.
The one coming back was the one that was a surprise. We had taken the route out several
times, but we had a different route coming back, because it looked like they were setting
up for us again, so we changed the route, and they still hit us. 43:00 What we found out
19
�later was that our interpreter was a VC, so they had signals and knew everything we were
doing. That was maybe four or five days before we were supposed to rotate. At that time
you rotated by numbers. If five new guys came in, and your number was one to five,
then you were on your way out. If your relief was in, then you didn‘t have to go on this
patrol, your relief would go on that patrol. So, for my team, all of us had a relief that was
in, so this was it, this was the last patrol for us. So, to be on your last patrol and it was a
weird time in America.
Interviewer: So, you were there, in this area, for thirteen months?
No, out of the thirteen months came the training cycle on Okinawa, so we probably
actually did, in country, maybe ten months. 44:04
Interviewer: And over the course of that time, were you kind of repeating all of the
same activities, patrolling the same areas, and doing the same things?
Yes, most of the time that we were there. A day went like—you came off patrol, and
there was always a poker game or a dice game or some sort of a gambling game going.
Many guys would come off patrol and sit in a game, and they may stay there until its time
for the next patrol. If you were in a quiet are, and we did move to other areas from time
to time, and engineers had blown out a swimming hole for us, so you could go
swimming. There was a softball field that was set up back in that area, so unless
intelligence was telling you that your unit is going to be attacked, you try to make life as
normal as possible. 45:00 Occasionally, like when they came in through the barbed
wire, you would be hit, and occasionally you would get snipers or mortars. There was a
village that was maybe a half-mile from us, and occasionally we would send a squad out
to set up ambushes to see if we could catch anything coming into the village.
20
�Occasionally on their way out to set up an ambush, they would walk into an ambush.
Sometimes we would go on a patrol and drop off part of the unit, say maybe in a
hedgerow to set up an ambush, and then you come out that way. You were supposed to
be fooling the local populace, so they didn‘t know you were dropping them off, but five
minutes later the kids are out looking at you, so they knew that you were there. Then
occasionally there would be a large operation that your unit would be a part of, so some
of your unit would go. We were also doing some stuff in Laos at the time, and we
weren‘t doing this as a unit. They were pulling some people out of units, putting them in
units, and sending them to Laos, and we weren‘t supposed to be there. 46:11 In fact, if
my rotation replacement hadn‘t come in I was scheduled to be one of those. There were
occasions when we worked with what was called Katusas, which was with the South
Korean military, we pulled operations with them, and they were an interesting group.
They were extremely disciplined, and we worked with the ROK Marines, its what they
were called, it was the Korean Marines. We would exchange emblems, and theirs were a
little different than ours. That was an interesting experience.
Interviewer: Did you have any sense whether or not you were really accomplishing
anything or changing anything, or did you not have enough of an understanding of
the larger political situation to think like that?
I was an eighteen year old that was uneducated, that had the broad stroke, and was here to
stop communism so there wouldn‘t be a domino effect. What does that mean? I don‘t
have a clue, and neither did anyone else, you know. 47:25 You got more of a picture of
what Vietnam was about when you came back to the states. No, I had no clue; I
remember I was in Vietnam when Ali refused the draft. I said, ―If I‘m here, he should be
21
�here. I don‘t know what the heck they‘re talking about‖. Of course, we were getting
daily news of what was going on back in the states; you were getting bits and pieces of
the news. So no, from a political perspective, I had no clue. I was eighteen years old and
an uneducated person. 48:04
Interviewer: Now, what impression did you have of the Vietnamese population
generally? Did they—was it positive or negative, or just didn’t understand them, or
what?
I didn‘t personalize the war against the Vietnamese people. I did understand that these
are governments that went to war for whatever their government ends are. The
Vietnamese that we worked with, I didn‘t treat them any differently than I would treat
anyone else. In fact, I will give you another funny story. Highway One was the major
highway through Vietnam, and there were a lot of buses that went through, and we had a
check point there for a while. Everyone had to get off the bus and we had to check their
ID cards, check the bus, and let them go on their way. We were set up near a village, our
campsite was set up near a village, and the Mamasans would have to go out and gather
wood, and they had these yokes that would go around their neck and they balanced them
with their hands. 49:05 There were big baskets on both ends of these yokes, and they
would fill them up with firewood and bring them back every evening. Well, one evening
this Mamasan had this big heavy lead of wood, and I can‘t let this woman carry this big
heavy load of wood up that hill, so at least I can carry it to the top of the hill for her. She
couldn‘t speak English, but through gestures I told her I was going to carry the wood for
her. She gestured no, no, no, but I communicated that I would carry it to the top of the
hill and then she could have it. I got under this yoke, and I couldn‘t lift it, and I couldn‘t
22
�believe that. I tried, and again I couldn‘t lift it, she laughed, got under the yoke, and
trotted to the top of the hill, so I was real impressed.
Interviewer: So, when, then, did you leave Vietnam off that tour? 50:02
Well, when you leave Vietnam is based on your number. You go to Okinawa, and from
Okinawa is when you come back to the states.
Interviewer: Was it 1964 when you left, or was it 1965 by then?
I‘m pretty sure it must have been 1964, yes 1964 [Presumably 1966, since the Marines
did not land until 1965]. So, processed out of Okinawa, and then flying back, I think I
came in through San Francisco, and then on leave before you‘re put into your next unit.
The next unit was Quantico, Virginia. The rule was, you got on this four-month
extension, and when you got back to the states, and I can‘t remember exactly what the
time frame was, but it was either if it was less than thirty days you had left to do, you
could be discharged or it was less than sixty days you could be discharged. I had either
thirty-four or sixty-four days, so I couldn‘t be discharged, so they sent me to Quantico,
Virginia, to the Casual Company there, and there were two events of interest there. 51:10
Disbursing is where you settle all the pay issues, so once I got to Quantico I had some
pay issues, and I had to turn in my records. I‘m walking to Lejeune Hall where
disbursement is, and coming toward me are two women Marines. There‘s a car parked
on the curb, and right across the street is the 45-pistol range. So, as I‘m walking toward
these women, going to Lejeune Hall, they open fire at the pistol range, and under that car
I went. The women thought that was funny, but that was survival reaction. Initially I
was a little bit embarrassed, but after—I really wasn‘t because that was what I had been
doing for almost a year. Another thing that happened at Quantico was that they made me
23
�this cross-country chaser. 52:03 I was given an assignment to go and pick up a deserter,
so they give you a little history of why the guy deserted. This guy was a tough guy and
he had attacked some guards etc. You have to go to the armory, you check out a weapon,
you had five rounds of ammo, but you‘re not supposed to load the ammo etc. So, there is
a driver of the vehicle, when we picked him up, the vehicle is covered in the back, and
you and the prisoner sit in the back. They told me about how bad this guy was, so I put a
magazine in my chamber, jacked around and took the safety off. By this time the guy is
panicky, ―hey, you‘re not supposed to do that‖, and I said, ―just sit in the corner and be
still, and you don‘t have anything to worry about as long as you are still‖. When we got
back and I turned him in he reported me, and they asked me if I put a round in the
chamber? Did I take the safety off? I said, ―yeah‖, and they said, ―Why?‖ I said, ―This
guy has attacked other people, and he‘s a bad guy, and I just wanted to make sure he
wasn‘t going to attack me, you know‖. 53:06 That was the last time they sent me out to
pick up anyone. I just waited for my thirty-four days to be up, and I was discharged. I
got out of the Marine Corps, and the Urban League got me a job at D.H. Holmes, which
was a large department store. What I did was finish shoes that had been purchased and
returned, so you had to sand the bottoms and put them back on the shelf. The first
payday came around and you didn‘t get a check, you got a pay envelope. The supervisor
that I had gave me the pay envelope, and when I looked at my pay I was missing money.
I said, ―Don‘t we get x amount of dollars an hour?‖ And he said, ―that‘s right‖, and I
said, ―Other than taxes is there something else being taken out? 54:02 He said, ―no‖,
and I said, ―this isn‘t right, that‘s not enough money‖, and he said, ―I don‘t know about
that‖, and he turned around and walked away. The guys told me that occasionally this
24
�guy takes money out of your pay envelope, well, I worked one more week there and I
quit. The next job that I got was at the top of the International Trade Mart at the end of
Canal Street, a big tall building, as a dishwasher. We had to argue whether or not I
would be paid minimum wage because for that sort of job you don‘t have to pay
minimum wage, and I‘m not going to work for less than minimum wage. Even minimum
wage was not enough to get paid on a Friday, take a girl friend to a movie, give my
mother some help out money at home, and have a nickel left in my pocket, that didn‘t
work. The only thing I could think of was, ―let me go back in the Marine Corps to kind
of figure this out—what am I to do in life? This isn‘t working. 55:03 So, I came back
into the Marine Corps for a change of MOS, Military Occupational Specialty is O-311. I
came back in for O-361, which is postal. I was sent to El Toro California, which is no
longer there, expensive property, stayed an El Toro for a while and from there another
overseas tour.
Interviewer: Where did you go on the overseas tour?
You go to Okinawa, but let me tell you what happened. Most of the Marine Corps that
serves in the Far East is from Okinawa, but there‘s a wing in Iwakuni, Japan. By this
time I have been overseas three or four times, and they have all been in Okinawa. This
set of orders is for Iwakuni, Japan, and I‘m happy because I‘m going to see something
else. 56:04 I was to transfer, go to Okinawa, transfer to another jet that‘s going to take
me to Iwakuni, Japan. When I get to Okinawa I‘m met at the airport by an old postal
friend of mine by the name of Guy Olegallo,, and the last time I saw Olegallo he was an
enlisted man, and now he‘s a warrant officer. He said, ―Woods, man, I‘m glad to see
you. I heard you were coming over, and that‘s why I came down to meet you. Guess
25
�what I‘ve done?‖ I said, ―What have you done?‖ He said, ―I got your orders changed‖,
and I said, ―You what?‖ He said, ―I got your orders changed and you‘re going to work
for me‖, and I said, ―look, look, I got a chance to go to Iwakuni and you got my orders
changed?‖ He said, ―Yeah, yeah, let me tell you what I‘m going to do for you. You‘re
going to be the postal inspector for the island‖, well, that calmed me down a little bit.
That was an interesting job, and I had two guys working for me, so I ended up staying in
Okinawa. 57:03 My last overseas tour was in 1979. From there I came back to San
Diego, and from San Diego I was discharged. I had some interesting duties, I was a
recruiter, so you go to recruiter school in Parris Island, South Carolina. It was my first
introduction to the Midwest, my original orders sent me to Chicago, and Chicago had a
sub-station in Michigan City, Indiana, so they sent me there, and I was there for about
four days, and because it was called Michigan City I didn‘t realize I was in Indiana, so
the first letter I wrote home I told them I was in Michigan City, Michigan. From there—
Michigan City had a permanent contact station in Benton Harbor, Michigan, so I ended
up spending three and a half years in Benton Harbor, Michigan. 58:04 Once you have
done independent duty, which is the drill field, I had been on drill field, I was hand
selected to be an instructor at drill instructor school, I taught the leadership package, and
once you have those kind of duties you can pretty much choose where the duty station is
that you want, so San Diego was the choice for me. I enjoyed the environment, the
economy was bad, my wife to be, had visited me there for a number of times, and she
wanted to leave Michigan when I got out of the Marine Corps, and live in San Diego, but
she was not really mobile here. We had gas lines, Carter was the president at the time, so
we decided to settle in Grand Rapids, Michigan until we decided where we wanted to live
26
�when the economy got better. Once I got here I saw how far a dollar could go and this
was a community unlike others in Michigan, so we built a home and got a job at Grand
Valley, and here we are. 59:06
Interviewer: Let’s back up a little to the point where you had re-entered the Marine
Corps etc. You’re in the Marine Corps, kind of the late sixties on into 1982, and did
you ever have any pressure to go back to Vietnam, or was there any prospect of
going back to Vietnam in say the late 60’s, 69, 70, in there, when we had a lot of
soldiers over there?
There were a lot of things going on at that time and there was some pressure to go back to
Vietnam. There was an old saying that said, ―there are only three types of Marines, those
in Vietnam, those leaving, and those coming‖, so it was pretty much like it is now. There
were not as many tours, guys spend as many as five tours in Iraq, but three and four were
not unheard of in Vietnam, it was the same situation.
Interviewer: You managed to stay out of that.
I didn‘t, actually, and once I got back to camp Lejeune, North Carolina I was there for a
while stationed with my dad. 0:06
My dad was in the Marine Corps for a while. I‘m
in postal, and I got orders to go overseas. Now, there had been a gunnery sergeant I had
been working for that he and I did not get along at all, I mean not at all. In the morning
when I was sitting at my desk doing the mail, out of the corner of my eye I could see this
guy standing in the door watching me, and he would find something to say to me daily.
If it took me too long to find a parking place he would be waiting for me at the door.
Well, he got transferred to Washington D.C., and he became a monitor in Washington
D.C. A monitor the person that makes assignments for all of the people in the Marine
27
�Corps in their field, so if you‘re a postal monitor and there needs to be a person in Japan,
your monitor will pick a person to go to Japan, ok? That would be based on how long
you have been in the states and the rotation cycle etc. 1:03
I got orders to go back to
Vietnam, but before I left Camp Lejeune my orders were modified to put me back into an
infantry unit. I went to see the colonel and I told him that I had just come back into the
Marine Corps for a change of MOS from infantry to postal, so this is a mistake, and to
put me back in postal. He agreed, and changed my orders back to postal. The staging
station for everyone going back to Vietnam is Okinawa, you leave the states, you go to
Okinawa, and from Okinawa to Vietnam, and when I got to Okinawa my orders had been
changed back to infantry. Now you‘re in a casual company, you‘re waiting for a flight to
Vietnam, so every morning you fall out for formation, the people that are going to leave
that day, they call your name and tell you what time to get your gear ready and where
you‘re going to depart from. 2:04 So, the lieutenant that was running the information
called me and told me what infantry outfit I was going to etc. I said, ― wow, mistake‖,
and he said, ―what do you mean mistake?‘ I said, ―I‘m postal, and I just got this changed
before I left stateside, so somebody changed it back, so we need to change that back‖,
and he said, ―take care of that when you get in country‖, and I said, ―no, we‘re going to
take care of this before I get in country, we‘re going to take care of that right here in
Okinawa‖, and he said, ―Marine, I‘m not asking you, I‘m telling you‖, and I said, ―yes sir
I understand, but if you don‘t take care of it here then I‘m going to request mass with the
President of the United States, and it will be thirteen months before I see him and then I‘ll
rotate, so we take care of this here or I‘m going to ask to see the president‖, so he put me
in a casual company until they could work this out. The casual company was a postal
28
�casual, and what we were doing was handling the mail from the deceased people in
Vietnam, and there was loads of that, so I spent that thirteen months in Okinawa, and I
had a monitor that was trying to get me killed, I‘m sure of it, but I tricked him and I‘m
still here. 3:06 A number of things were going on at that time. We can‘t talk about the
Vietnam experience without talking about the environment that that operation took place
in. That was only one thing that was happening in America. There was the civil rights
movement that overlapped this, we had a president who had been assassinated, a
candidate for president assassinated, two major civil rights leaders that had been
assassinated, the woman‘s movement was burning their bras, there was a hippie
movement that was taking place, the Democratic National Convention in Chicago was a
siege, people were demonstrating against an oppressive government as they saw it.
Every serviceman that came back experienced the hatred that many Americans showed
them. For the black serviceman it was a little different. 4:06 The difference is as
Muhammad Ali said, ―I haven‘t lost anything in Vietnam, and there‘s a civil rights
movement going on here, and there are dogs being put on black people, and there are
hoses being put on black people, you fight is here on the streets of America, not in
Vietnam. You‘re fighting for Vietnamese rights when you don‘t have those same rights
here at home. Why are you in that uniform?‖ So, your own community had ostracized
you. Processing that was not easy. On the one hand you had to understand that didn‘t
really have a lot to do with the military. The military was just seen as the symbol of
American power, so you are attacking the symbol, it‘s not the war, and it‘s the symbol
that you are attacking. I kind of worked my way to understanding that. 5:02
The other
thing I understood was that what I‘m seeing here was a better equal opportunity program
29
�in the military than the one that I have in the south, but you still have to deal with being
ostracized by your own community. It wasn‘t an easy time for black military people. I
guess people handles that in different ways, some went AWOL, some would have stayed
in the military, but got out, some turned around and demonstrated against the military,
from a civil rights perspective, not from a Vietnam perspective, some did both, and it was
an individual thing on how you processed that and how you dealt with it.
Interviewer: And you of course stayed, once you went back in. You went back in
and you stayed in.
Yes, I stayed for—I got a twenty-year retirement, but you could actually retire on twenty
years, at that time, with nineteen years and six months. If you had a four year enlistment
and you re-enlisted at three and a half years, then that other six months was given as
admin time, so it counted, but you can no longer do that. 6:14 That was grandfathered
in, so I retired at nineteen years and six months. I had planned on staying longer, and I
enjoyed the military, some of it. the spit and polish, the competition, who can look the
best at formation in the morning, I had friends, you had fourteen set of utilities, you had
one set that you would get in on a foot locker and step in, so you wouldn‘t break the
crease in the back, you spent all night spit shinning your shoes, you had starched and
blocked your cover, and then at the one o‘clock formation you would change out of that
into a new set. That was for me, and I really enjoyed that, and my friends did also, so we
ran that competition. When I decided to get out of the Marine Corps I had a moment. If
you are a field grade officer you have awesome responsibilities. 7:12 Major, Lieutenant
Colonel and Colonel, a full regiment or battalion, and the lives of everyone of theirs is
right in the palm of their hand. Not only do you control the lives of these people, but the
30
�amount of equipment, the tactics that you could put—it‘s awesome, it‘s really awesome.
So, I have always thought of these guys as super smart guys, right? When I was in San
Diego I ran the non-commissioned officers school when I got there. I was given a choice
of three positions, go to my field postal, run the field house, or I could run the NCO
school, so I selected the non-commissioned officers school, and I had five young
sergeants that worked for me. The non-commissioned officers school will take corporals
and sergeants and teach them how to be non-commissioned officers. The school was six
weeks long I think, so we would run a six-week class, a two-week break, and run another
six -week class. 8:10 There were other schools in San Diego, there was drill instructors
school, which I had been a part of that, I had been an instructor there, there was recruiters
school, and I had been a part of that, there was C school, spit and polish, these are the
guys that put on a performance when you‘re base is visited by heavy brass, shoot the
canons etc, and the lost school on that totem pole was the non commissioned officers
school, and that doesn‘t work very well for me. So, I thought, ―what can I do to move the
school into the spotlight, so when people speak of schools, they will speak of us in the
same breath they speak of the other schools?‖ So, what I decided to do is—right next
door to us was an Air Force station, and the ships come into San Diego, and there are
Marines on ships, so if you‘re in port and that coincides with our school cycle, and then
send your guys to our school. There was also a Navy group that was close to us. 9:06
so, I went to them and said, ―if you want to send your guys to our school, send them‖,
and the very first group that took me up on that was the Air Force. They sent a young
man over that embarrassed all of the Marines. We went to the rifle range and fired and
he fired the highest at the rifle range, he wiped them all out on the PFT test, right? So
31
�that was newsworthy for the base paper, so my boss wasn‘t aware of what I was doing,
and when I reported in he had two hats. One hat was C school, and one hat was NCO
school. NCO school-- he said, ―Gunny, you run the NCO school, keep me out of trouble
and it‘s your school, I have to focus my attention over here‖. He ran the C school, so
when he read about this in the paper he said, ―What‘s going on?‖ I said, ―I invited the
Air Force over and I‘ve invited the Navy over, and my people have to learn their
regulations for inspections, and I‘m trying to get some publicity for the school‖. He said,
‗this is great, this is great, you know‖. 10:07
Well, the commanding general got a hold
of it too, so during an officers meeting the colonel, who reports to the general, asked my
boss to come to the next meeting and explain to the general what‘s going on. Well he
couldn‘t, so he said, ―you‘re going‖, and I said, ―ok‖, so I‘m on the agenda to go back,
and I‘m the last person on the agenda. There were Majors, Lieutenant Colonels, and
Colonels, and at the time there was a Professor Bloom that I think was out of Wisconsin
and come up with a learning program that was called the Bloom's Theory of Mastery.
Students didn‘t compete against other students; they competed against a list of learning
objectives. The Marine Corps had said, ―this is what we‘re going to do‖, and I had
instituted that into NCO school, but many of the schools didn‘t like it and they hadn‘t
instituted it, which is interesting to me because there was an order that you do it. 11:03
At this meeting we had people telling the general why this wouldn‘t work. I had been
working that for six months, so what do you mean why won‘t work; it‘s a perfect
program? So, my mouth kind of fell open, and first, I never would have dreamed these
guys would give any sort of excuse, second, they certainly wouldn‘t have been accepting
that kind of excuse from me, so I found that these Captain Kirk Star Trek guys had clay
32
�feet. On that day I decided, I had to get out of the Marine Corps because they make more
money, they have more responsibility, and the only difference between them and me is a
sheepskin, so I got to go do that, I‘ve got to go do that. At that point I had seventeen
years in the Marine Corps, and I never thought of myself as college material. I came
from a poor background and we never talked college in my house. I thought you had to
be a real smart guy to go to school, but if these guys can do it, I can do it that standing on
my head, so I had seventeen years in and I had three more years to do. 12:08 I did it
and by 1980 I got out on Friday and enrolled in college on Monday, so my life changed.
Interviewer: Did the Marine Corps itself change at all during the time when you
were in it? Was it a different sort of organization, or attitude, or way of doing
things in 1980 than it was in 1963?
There was some change going through the Marine Corps, but you had older guys that—
and the Bloom Theory of Mastery is an example, it‘s an order, but this is the way we‘ve
been doing it for a hundred years. It had to be jammed down their throat, so change was
real slow. You could see some changes at the top, and one of the changes that took place
because of the Marine Corps TO pride of tactical readiness number, the pride of Vietnam
was 175 thousand, and of course, the Marine Corps number went up to over 200 thousand
during the height of Vietnam. Well, prior to that, the commandant of the Marine Corps
sat as a joint member of the chiefs of staff, but didn‘t have a vote unless it was a matter
involving the Marine Corps, so he wasn‘t a co-equal at that point. 13:11 Once the
Marine Corps strength went up over 200 thousand, then he became a co-equal partner on
the joint chiefs of staff, so that was a change, and put much pride in the Marine Corps
forward to see that happen. There were other changes taking place, certainly we had to
33
�adapt to jungle warfare training, and I heard some officers talking on time, and I don‘t
know if this is true, but this is a story I will relate to you. When we first got into Vietnam
we went to the French and asked the French for the manuals that they used to fight to
fight the insurgents in Vietnam. Well, the French were using the same manuals that we
were using to fight jungle warfare in WWII. It was jungle warfare, but it was a different
type, for example, if you were fighting jungle warfare in the Philippines, you were a
foreign power fighting another foreign power in the Philippines. In Vietnam you weren‘t
fighting a foreign power, you were fighting the people in that country, the indigenous
population. 14:09 So, it wasn‘t the same. We had to kind of learn on the job, so there
were some changes, but a lot of things died hard, and over time, so there was some
change, but not a lot of change by the time I got out of the Marine Corps.
Interviewer: Was there change, do you think, in the sorts of people who were
joining the Marines, or why they were going in or anything like that?
There are recruit categories, there‘s a category three, a category two, and a category one,
I guess, and that‘s based on the score that you make on an ASTRAP test. When I came
in the Marine Corps, the Marine Corps was taking people that scored in the lower
percentile, cat fours is what they were called. Anytime there‘s a military buildup the
requirements change. There was also a draft during Vietnam, so the kind of people that
were coming in may not have been the most desirable. 15:11 The Marine Corps was
processing people out of the Corps for bad conduct discharges on a regular basis, a
regular basis. Casual companies had just about every base that was filled with
undesirables that would be let out. Some of that had to do with the civil rights things that
were taking place. There was a rebellion within the Corps, and some of it was that. I
34
�think now you have a more educated military. There may even be a requirement for
senior enlisted men to have some college, maybe even an associates degree for certain
ranks. If you don‘t make a certain rank by a given time in the military, you have to get
out. That‘s good and also poses some questions, and it‘s good because you can think
through tactical situations better for your unit leaders. 16:13 At the same time that you
start to think through these tactical situations, it poses questions if this is the best thing to
do, that you‘re being told to do. So, I haven‘t seen this, but I would assume, given the
way that I think, even when I was an uneducated person I raised questions of some of the
things we were doing, and now as an educated person now, I raise a lot of questions
about things that should be done, so that may be a double edged sword, I don‘t know, I
haven‘t seen any reports to see how the military responds to that. Let me give you an
example of that let me give you an example of that. The Marine Corps has a silent drill
team and these guys are sharp. They do sunset parades in Washington D.C., and they
perform all over the country. If you haven‘t seen them, you should because they are
seriously impressive. 17:11 Each member of the silent drill team is probably five deep,
make a mistake and somebody‘s going to take your place, right? But they only take
young Marines for this because of the discipline that‘s required and the demand that‘s put
on them. the younger they are, the less they will rebel against this, so you have to think
about that, and that‘s why the military, up until recently, we‘re in combat, take a person
that‘s a certain age to go through basic training. Once you get older and more mature
there are things that you rebel against. I think the education process is like that too, and I
would be interested to see any reports that the military may have done on something like
that.
35
�Interviewer: If you look back on the career that you had in the Marine Corps, what
do you think the main effects of that experience were on you? 18:08
The Marine Corps makes you responsible. I find that responsibility is something that a
lot of people try to avoid. I don‘t mind being held accountable. I am responsible for my
actions, and what I expect as a result of being accountable is recognition when I do well,
and if punishment is necessary when I do poorly, it‘s all on me. It gave me self
assurance, it gave me early exposure to leadership, it made me understand the real
meaning of friendship, everybody is not your friend. Friends are a special category, and I
met people in the Marine Corps that are my friends today. It made me know that I am
capable of competing in any environment that I decide to compete in. 19:12 Before I
went in the Marine Corps I had nowhere near that type of insurance. Society had told me
that there were only certain things I could do and a lot of things I couldn‘t do, and the
Marine Corps changed that for me.
Interviewer: All right, the whole thing makes for a very good story, so I would like
to close here by thanking you for coming in and telling it today.
Thank you very much for having me.
36
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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WoodsM
Title
A name given to the resource
Woods, Michael (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Woods, Michael
Description
An account of the resource
Michael Woods grew up in a poor neighborhood in New Orleans and enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1960 at the age of 17. He was based on Okinawa in the early 1060s, and was sent to Vietnam with one of the first Marine units assigned there, and participated in a number of combat actions of varying size. After his tour in Vietnam was over, he stayed in the Marines until 1979, but did not return to Vietnam.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.)
WKTV
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-06-08
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/642b2a8595a025b2e2a25e692f7f7dd7.mp4
5166f5dc7424dc4fd7f5b8a9ac8b707f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/17402006c999fbba3ef5559f29ec2c03.pdf
c9d789483733fcd85b1ea1bfb4f8ea12
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
William Womer
(17:37)
Background Information (00:13)
Born June 29th of 1941 (00:15)
Served in the Vietnam war and during the Cold War (00:22)
Highest rank was Sergeant Major. (00:30)
Born in Niles Michigan. (1:02)
He has 2 younger brothers and 1 younger sister. His brother Pete was in the Navy for 7 years.
(1:15)
His father attempted to enlist during World War II but was unable do to his job at a plane
factory. He was later drafted in 1945. (1:33)
Before he was drafted, William was an aquatics director for a YMCA. (2:24)
He was processed in Chicago. At this time the men were divided between Marines and Army.
(2:44)
The men were then sent by train to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri by train. (3:10)
Basic Training (3:22)
William was at Fort Leonard Wood during May-July of approx 1966. Due to the heat, some
physical training had to be cancelled at times. (3:30)
He enjoyed the basic training due to his excellent shape. (4:00)
As a result of his performance in training, William was made a squad leader. As a result, he was
given a room with 2 other roommates. (4:30)
The men were given hand to hand combat training and bayonet training. (5:00)
William did not find adjusting to military life to difficult. (5:32)
After his basic was completed, William was sent to California for Advanced Infantry Training
(AIT). (6:00)
Service in the Army (6:28)
After completing Advanced Infantry Training, William was sent to Germany where he served
with Company B, 2nd of the 509th Airborne Mechanized, 8th infantry Division. (6:34)
From Germany, part of his unit was deployed to Vietnam for the Tet Offensive in 1968. (7:00)
Because France dropped out of NATO, the men had to fly around France to Turkey, than
Thailand, than via Helicopter to Vietnam. (7:19)
A month after the Tet Offensive broke out, the unit was moved back to Germany. (8:00)
William served in the military for 26.5 years. (8:50)
While in Vietnam, William’s unit’s duty was to ambush enemies along the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
(10:10)
Often times the NVA that he encountered were too big of a group to fire upon. (10:34)
Effects of Service (11:00)
�
William has multiple military friends that he still keeps in touch with. One has PTSD. (11:12)
He has been awarded the Meritorious Service Medal 3 times, an Army Achievement Medal and
was select as the 4th Army NCO of the year. (12:20)
As a result of his service, William has a greater appreciation for life and the value of good
opportunities. (14:04)
William believes he is blessed due to the caliber of men that served over and under him. (15:17)
He would never want anyone to go into combat; he does not however, regret his experience.
(15:56)
Over all his military experience was good. (16:56)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WomerW1369V
Title
A name given to the resource
Womer, William (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Womer, William
Description
An account of the resource
William Womer, born in 1941 in Niles Michigan, served in the U.S. Army for 26.5 years. During his service, William was stationed in both Germany as well as in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive in 1968 where he organized ambushes on the Ho Chi Minh Trail. William had the honor of being selected as the 4th Army NCO of the year and spent the later part of his service stateside training solders.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jozwik, Heather (Interviewer)
Pontlous, Brooke (interviewer)
Catalano, Dmitrius (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-11-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5098715f6f315d2207690cfbf33f4589.mp4
1ee388839488790b40c303d599b09991
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ffab03c090fefa93fcf2ef5faa3fe5ea.pdf
1ef304aab450f8ea7f4426bb78ea36f6
PDF Text
Text
Wolfe, Jill
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: None (between Cold War and 9/11)
Interviewee’s Name: Jill Wolfe
Length of Interview: 1:18:16
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman
Interviewer: We’re talking today with Jill Wolfe in Grand Rapids, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, Jill, start of with some background on yourself and to begin with: where
and when were you born?
I was born in December 1975 in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
Interviewer: Okay, did you grow up there or did you move around?
I moved from Oklahoma City when I was three years old to St. Louis, Missouri and in St. Louis
moved around three times before finally moving to Troy, Michigan a suburb of Detroit when I
was 15.
Interviewer: Okay. And so did you finish high school there?
I did.
Interviewer: Okay. And what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?
My mom was an art therapist, so that was kind of interesting, and my dad negotiated contracts
for companies, corporations. Southwestern Bell he worked for for a long time.
Interviewer: At least as long as there was one.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Did that one survive the merges or is that something else?
No, he ended up working for Ameritech.
Interviewer: Okay.
When I was in high school, so.
�Wolfe, Jill
Interviewer: Alright, now… okay so what year did you finish high school?
I graduated in 1994.
Interviewer: Okay, and what did you do after high school?
Well, I had applied and was accepted to both Michigan State University and Grand Valley State
University and I thought Grand Valley was just a little bit further away from my parents and that
sounded good to me, and I have a very specific memory of probably a week or two before I was
supposed to leave for college my mother coming into my bedroom and waking me up and
saying, “You’re not ready to go to college, you should join the military.” and I just remember
being so… it was the weirdest thing, being so surprised, and I said, “No, I’m fine, I’m going to
college.” and that's what I did. I started at Grand Valley in the fall of 1994.
Interviewer: Okay, now where—do you have any idea where that idea of your mother’s
came from?
I think that she has always worried about me? And I did not have great grades in high school
but I got a solid B average, I don’t know where that came from, no. And my dad was in ROTC
during Vietnam and I just don’t come from a military family, so I’m just not sure what she thought
was going on there but it was very weird.
Interviewer: Did he do the full ROTC and then become an officer or just the first two
years and then?
Right, his older brother actually went through the whole ROTC during Vietnam and ended up
being stationed in Korea and he was a career officer and retired from the army probably 25
years after that, so.
Interviewer: Okay, but somewhere in there your mother had the sense that this would
help you grow up or get focused or something.
I don’t know if she was worried about the tuition bill or… I’m gonna have to ask her about this
someday but I think… She’s always been—we’ve never had a great relationship?
Interviewer: Okay. I’ll leave that one there. Okay, so how do you wind up in the military
then? (3:28)
Well, I came to Grand Valley and it was typical Freshman experience, lots of you know, trying
out your freedom and being on your own for the first time and I was fine but I just kinda thought
“Well, maybe there’s something more to life than this?” it didn’t seem like there was much
meaning to it for me and I’ve always been a kind of thoughtful kid, and I didn’t think that much of
it really, I mean it’s just what everybody else did. And so I came home for Thanksgiving and my
parents sat me down and said unless you get a job to help pay for your tuition we’re not gonna
�Wolfe, Jill
send you back next semester. And I was completely surprised at this, I had no idea that this was
an issue for them and I was pretty upset about it, and I threw a huge fit and we argued and they
stood firm on it and said “Nope, this is happening.” and they had to go pick up my grandmother
at the airport she was visiting for the holiday, and as the garage door is closing the phone rings
and it’s a recruiter, and he said “How would you like $30,000 for college?” and I was like, “Let’s
talk! You have some incredible timing, sir, and yeah let’s talk about this.” He was, I think, from
the you know the east side of the state where I was living at the time and I said “Well I’m going
to Grand Valley” and he said “Well I’ll connect you with a recruiter over there.” and so I made an
appointment, didn’t tell my parents, and we met at a bowling alley that was just off campus at
the time. And I didn’t realize this but I was like the first or second person he’d ever tried to
recruit and so he, I was thinking I’d go into the reserves, and he had this binder that he pulled
out and it had like clip art pictures of like an airplane and a dollar sign and you know, I don’t
know, somebody in a hardhat and he’s like “Point to which picture you would want to get out of
your experience.” and somewhere along the line I picked up that he was recruiting for active
duty, full time and I said “Oh, this isn’t for me, I’m not gonna do this.” and he got super sad and
closed his book. “Okay.” and he put it away and I felt badly for him, I was a young woman of the
90s and did not wanna disappoint anybody or make him feel badly so I said go ahead, finish
your speil. So he did and I went back to the dorms, I lived in Kisler at the time, took a long walk,
there was an old tow rope back there in the woods and you know those feelings of I’m feeling
like college just wasn’t holding what I thought it was, I wasn’t doing anything important or that
mattered and maybe this was an option, and it was also not far from my mind that I could do this
myself that I could pay for college and not have to depend on my parents and not have this fight
with them anymore. So I went to the MEP station and I did all the medical stuff and filled out all
the paperwork. I had taken the ASVAB and didn’t know it at the time but had gotten a pretty
good score, I didn’t know what a good score was. (6:50)
Interviewer: So, explain what a MEP station and ASVAB are.
Oh, so the MEP station is the Military Entrance Processing… I don’t know what the S stands for.
I want to say center but clearly that’s not it. But it’s where, if you’re going to go into the military,
they process everything before you go in, and that was that. Then the ASVAB is basically the
competency IQ test the military gives you, and I have no recollection of taking it but I must have,
and so at the MEP station they sat me down to find out what kind of job I wanted to have. I said,
“Well, I’d like something maybe with journalism or computers.” and the recruiter said—another
super sad face—“All those jobs are taken.” and I was like wow, like they filled that up fast and
like the whole army doesn’t, okay, not wanting to disappoint anyone and he said “Well what
about like a truck driver or cook?” and I said “You know, if I can do it in the civilian world I’m not
sure I want to do it in the army.” and he said “Okay, well why don’t you go talk to the captain.”
So I went into the Captain’s office and sat down and same thing, what do you want to do. Well
I’d like to be in a writer, I’ve always been a writer, maybe journalism or something along that line
or possibly something with computers. Again, super sad face, don’t have any of those left, and
then he asked me he said, “Have you ever considered a traditional female job?” and I’m 19, I
have no idea what he’s talking about like I’m not even aware enough to be offended, just like
what could he possibly be referring to. And so I ask “What do you mean?” and he says, louder,
�Wolfe, Jill
“You know, a traditional female job?” and I’m racking my brain and finally I’m like, “You mean,
like a mom?” like that was the only thing I could think of that he was talking about, and he just
said, “You know what, never mind, go back out and talk to Sergeant so and so and we’ll find
something for you.” And so I went back out to Sergeant so-and-so and he had a whole list
printed off on his desk of things that I qualified for based on my ASVAB score, and there was
one that said non-morse communications specialist. And I was like “Well I’m a communications
major, I can do that!” and he said “Oh you don’t want that job, that’s a six-year hitch.” and I said
“Well, I don’t know,” like, “I don’t know, read it, see what it is.” So he gets out his book and he
opens it up and he’s like “Oh, it’s actually a 3 year hitch!” and I’m like “Perfect.” I knew that I
probably couldn’t do two years because that’s mostly for combat arms, so he read it off and I
didn’t really understand any of it, but I said sure, let’s do that. And he said okay. So, signed up
for that and it turns out that that particular job has a very high security clearance, and so I spent
several weeks going through all interviews with the—I can’t even remember the name of the
service but it’s like a government service separate from the military that does these, and I
remember I had some paperwork I had to fill out and they asked me how many times I’ve been
drunk. I was a freshman in college and I’m like, I don’t know, I think I wrote down 4 or 5. And
then I was in an interview and they asked me again and I think I said like 7 or 8 and that
stopped the whole thing. “Oh, what’s this discrepancy here?” and all I could say was I just
don’t—I’m not a huge drinker but, you know, I’ve been to parties in high school and parties in
college and I guess they decided that was a good enough explanation, at least enough to send
me to boot camp. So the way I had sort of worked things out was I think I was pretty much all
set to go like March, April maybe, timeframe and so but I wanted to finish out my semester here
at Grand Valley, my parents did send me back. And oh, but the way, to go back to that when I
came back to visit in probably January or something and told them that I had joined the military
they were “Oh no, no no no! That’s not at all, no! You don’t have to do that, let’s not do that,
we’ll figure something out.” and I said “No. I have decided that this is what I’m gonna do and this
is what I’m gonna do, and you don’t have to pay for anything so don’t even worry about it.” So
they, I guess, didn’t fight too hard on it but I knew they were—they just thought “What the heck
is going on?” So I finish out the semester at Grand Valley, I knew I was shipping out in May of
1995 and I got like a waiver or something cause I wanted to go down and visit my family in
Oklahoma, so I actually shipped out from Oklahoma and… do you want me to keep going?
(12:11)
Interviewer: Oh yeah. Where was boot camp?
So I shipped out to Fort Jackson, South Carolina and I had never even flown by myself before,
so like I was really… I think back like it was really the first time I had ever been on my own, it
was scary and we got to the airport and there were several of us and they picked us up in a van,
and they drove us to Fort Jackson, and it felt like the middle of the night to me I don’t know how
late it was but it felt like the middle of the night. And I remember they had this room where
before—you know you had a box in it and you could go into, it was like a booth almost, and
there was a box in it and they were, they just scared the living shit out of us like “If you have
ANYTHING on you that is unauthorized you need to put it in that box.” it is the amnesty box is
what it was, so. I remember going through my bag and having pictures of like my boyfriend and
�Wolfe, Jill
like a granola bar and like all this stuff and I was just like “Okay, fine.” you know and just put it
in, and just put everything in there that was personal, basically. And yeah it was really… it was
scary and I had no idea what was going to happen next.
Interviewer: Now did you find out later whether or not that was really what they meant by
unauthorized, or did they really want drugs and whatnot?
I think it was drugs and porn is mostly what ended up in there, but again, I did not want to break
any rules or have anybody be mad at me and I thought well, you know, just like you said they
put the fear of God into us about having anything unauthorized, so. (13:56)
Interviewer: Alright, so now what’s the processing system like? I mean you get there,
you’ve gotten rid of your unauthorized material, and then what?
We went to like a holding unit? So, I don’t remember much about getting issued, like, my
uniforms. I do—they issued, I feel like, the dress uniforms later? I do remember that. But got the
BDUs and the boots and maybe offered a haircut and we got sent to this like holding unit where
I met these women that were from all over the United States. Most of them I would say very
different from how I had been raised and a lot of women of color. Had a fair number of
representatives who were exotic dancers, which I thought was kind of interesting, a lot of them
had children that they had signed over, you know, what do you call it… custody to, to their
parents, so that they could come do this. And we all called each other by where we were from:
so there was Michigan, California, Louisiana and Carolina and that was just how we did it, and I
feel like there was kind of an immediate bond. And I do remember being woken up very very
early in the morning—and I mean you know of knew that was going to happen but it was still a
shock and doing exercises and eating the gross food in the chow hall. There was a male
company that was in the same area that we were, and we were always kind of looking over at
them like “What are they doing, do they have it as bad as us, are we going to be with them?”
because it turns out I was maybe the second unit to go through or cohort to go through Fort
Jackson in a mixed gender platoons. So, anyway, spent a few days there until I guess they got
enough of us to send over to our regular basic training unit and rode the bus over there, and you
know, just like in the movies the bus door opens and those drill sergeants just tear onto that bus
and start screaming at us and we’re just have no idea what’s going on, grabbing our stuff,
people are doing push ups and it was… very jarring and, but I just kept my mouth shut and did
what I was told which served me very well for most of my military service. And I feel like we
were there for like a day and a half before the males showed up, and so again, like he was
learning how to use floor buffers, for some reason that was a big deal. And we had these big
bays that we were in and like I don’t know how many of us, maybe 20, with bunk beds top and
bottom and lockers, learning how to organize our stuff and I remember we were having some
sort of lecture, they were giving us some information, we were all sitting on the floor in one of
the bays in the barracks and some female did something… skirty. And drill sergeant, female drill
sergeant, called her up in front of the class and was like “Beat your face, better get down and
beat your face.” and this girl was so scared, and she just froze and drill sergeant yelled it louder
like, “Get down, beat your face!” and she sort of was looking back and forth and trying to figure
�Wolfe, Jill
out and she gets down on both knees and starts going like this (Wolfe pats her left cheek
rapidly) and that was the first time I ever saw a drill sergeant crack a smile. And she puts her
head down and she says “Push ups, Private.” and then you can see them go “Oh! Okay.” and
so she starts doing push ups. And I’ll never forget that. That’s how the army sort of taught us
lessons was make an example out of one person and make it so terrible that you would never
ever subject yourself to that, so. So yeah, so then it was about a day and a half and then the
males arrived and it was a very weird thing, I think when you tell 19-20 year old kids that they
are to have absolutely no fraternization or any sort of, no flirting, nothing, it’s just. They can’t
help but do it. So I remember that being like a constant sort of underlying tension was this like…
weird, sexual, and there were people having sex in the pup tents when we were out, you know,
on BIVOUAC and laundry rooms, wherever. It was pretty crazy. But, that being said, I think it
was really good for us like of course we were going to be in our units with males and they were
going to be with females, so they needed to learn to work with us. And they were also really
diverse and interesting and came from all sorts of backgrounds—we had one guy that was a…I
don’t know what he was thinking, he flunked out of West Point and was there. And in fact we
had a couple of West Point Cadets that were there, helping to train. So yeah, that was boot
camp. For me it felt like kind of a tough summer camp. (19:17)
Interviewer: But what were they having you do? How were you spending your time while
you were there?
I remember we spent a lot of time learning how to march, we were terrible at it. Lot of times and
so I was in Fort Jackson, South Carolina in… you know, May, June July. It was pretty hot. We,
in fact, we would do things like, like we had the—oh god, what’s it called—bayonet course, we
had to learn to use our bayonets and so we had a course through the words where we would
like stab these like fake soldiers. And it was so hot and there was like, they had different flags,
that they didn’t want us running through it we had to walk through it and so. And I remember
also being out on, I forget what we called it, but maneuvers we had to walk out to a spot in the
woods, we dug these fox holes, set up pup tents and it was all in this South Carolina heat and I
remember lying inside of my pup tent after having just sweated all day and I was still in my tshirt that I had worn and I couldn’t stand the smell of myself, it was so just gross. And I don’t
know if they didn’t give us wipes or whatever but it was just dirty and so we did that, and then I
remember the march back we had gotten no sleep and that being really, really hard and I could
barely keep my eyes awake. Probably the most physically exhausted I’ve ever been in my life
outside of giving birth, that was pretty tough too, but. And I remember we were almost back to
the barracks and I was holding my weapon and had a full pack on and I tripped and I just
managed to catch myself before I fell but sort of took a few steps and got out of line, and I
remember First Sergeant just on me so fast and just screaming at me “What are you doing, get
back in line!” and I think, like looking back on it now, they knew how exhausted and tired we
were and they just needed us to hold on a little bit longer and any sort of give that they would
have given us we just would have collapsed because we were so tired, but he really went after
me and I didn’t have that happen too often. One of the other memories that really stands out is
doing the gas chamber, and I used that sort of as the baseline for the hardest most
uncomfortable thing I’ve ever done, it was really awful. So they had, like a little shed basically,
�Wolfe, Jill
and they sort of told us what was going to happen and we had our gas masks and had been
trained on that, and our mock gear, and again South Carolina heat this was in the mid 90’s, I
mean like mock gear’s always been terrible but so they march us into there and Drill Sergeants
in there and has some sort of… I know it’s not mustard gas but some sort of, and it’s yellow and
the whole room is dark and filled with this sort of brown yellow haze. And of course before we
go in we all just take a deep breath and just hold our breath. And so we’re all standing in there
just holding our breath, kind of looking around, not really knowing what to expect and Drill
Sergeants in there in there in his mask and he says, “Okay, everybody take a breath.” and I’m
looking around and like my eyes are kind of burning a little bit but it doesn’t really seem that
bad. And so I’m like, I’m just gonna take a teeny little breath in, and just barely open my nostrils
and just—eugh, just got in my lungs and just started coughing and coughing and coughing. —
Oh, we must have walked in with our masks on, that’s what happened. Then take your mask off,
and of course we’re holding our breath, we’re looking around no big deal, he tells us to take a
breath, we kind of look around, we try it, and then everybody starts coughing. And they were
very clear like if you push, or if you try to run out of there, you’re gonna be in huge trouble—I
don’t know if they told us we could get kicked out of the army because of it, like they were not
fucking around that you do not push to get out of there, but man. Everything within my beings
was just choking choking choking. So, finally they open the door and you do start shoving to get
out, and we had to do this weird thing were we had to talk while we were, and they said “I am
opening my eyes, I am flapping my arms.” is what we had to say. And of course we’re choking
and just the snot, I just remember. And just choking and everybody is like stumbling all around
int he woods, it was this like Carolina pine forest, and just. Just trying to get it out of our system
and it was so, so unpleasant it probably took a good 10 minutes to clear all that out, but once it
was over then felt kind of a sense of accomplishment. Okay, like, I did that. So that was that
part. We learned to fire weapons and one of the things that I remember is that they would take
us—they would issue our weapons, must have been near the barracks, and it was… we were
so tired, so tired, so they’d load us all on a bus and we had these kevlar helmets that we put on
and we’d sit on the bus and we had our rifles between our knees and I remember, if you could
get your kevlar like perfectly balanced on the muzzle of your M-16 you could sleep. You could
just. But, if the bus hit a bump, it would knock the muzzle of the rifle into your forehead so there
were a whole bunch of us that had wounds on our heads from trying to sleep on the bus, so.
And we—yeah, so, and I actually really enjoyed the marksmanship part of it and I was actually
pretty good at it. We shot at these little targets that were made like Russian soldiers and we
called them Ivans. And I remember when we lined up to get our badges, um… am I moving
around too much? We were all lined up and it must have been the Lieutenant, maybe it was one
of the West Point Cadets, came by and was giving out they were like sharpshooter,
sharpshooter, expert, sharpshooter, and then came to me and said “Expert.” and I was like.
Wait what? And I remember being excited and like wanting to, I had this urge to like hug the
cadet and like, they were both sort of surprised like okay never mind, but yeah, I had done really
well at the range and I really enjoyed it. And to this day I was actually in Oklahoma over
thanksgiving and we were shooting skeet with a shotgun and in the front yard of the farm and
I’m legally blind, and I probably fired better than anyone except my dad, who's also sort of just
known to be a really good shot. So I—we don’t know if it’s genetic or what, but. That was pretty
much actually the last time I fired a gun, was in the army. Was in basic training, sorry. The last
�Wolfe, Jill
time I fired a weapon in the army in basic training, so we did that…. Trying to think of some
other funny stories that happened in boot camp. I had one in my head. I do remember to go
back to getting our dress uniforms like halfway through. It was halfway through boot camp, the
drill sergeant kind of lightened up at this point and, you know, the girls went on one side and the
guys went on the other and the dress uniforms were like skirts and blouses. And like… we’re all
wearing—I wasn’t, but a lot of my fellow soldiers were wearing these what they called BCGs,
Birth Control Glasses, that they issue you, and.
Interviewer: Those have the big heavy flat black screens?
Yeah, yeah, just… not at all attractive but everybody had the same ones and we put on these
skirts, and we put on these heels—they issued us heels—and we put on these blouses and
we’ve been in, you know, battle dress uniform, BDUs, for a long time in boots and had out hair
tied back or cut off and I remember putting on these dress uniforms and we’re looking at each
other and we’re like, “Hi!” And in fact we had an opportunity to step out into the hallway or into a
room where the guys had come in when their dress uniforms’ on and we were like “Okay!” and
they were like “Oh, hey, you’re actually kind of feminine.” so it was a very sort of weird moment
but, you know you just have everything taken away from you and I do remember that there was
lots of fighting with the girls but there was also the girls, I remember some of the black girls
would sing Amazing Grace, they would sing gospel songs in the barracks at night and, just to
have everybody singing together even those of us white girls that hadn’t grown up with that, but
you know we knew the words, was really quite powerful and built some pretty strong
relationships. And I have not kept in touch with anybody that I was in boot camp with but it was
a pretty life-changing experience and I remember that I was doing laundry one time and the
barracks were like, they were on stilts, they were big brick buildings and so the whole bottom
floor was just open area to the outside with like maybe a room for the laundry, and so my
laundry was getting done. You had to be very careful to watch your laundry because people
would steal it to have extra uniforms and t-shirts and stuff, so I was close but I was stepped
outside and I saw this sunset happening at Fort Jackson, South Carolina and I remember
having an appreciation for a sunset unlike anything I had before like, it was just a moment of
peace and tranquility and I was so homesick, I missed home so much and on Sundays you
could go to church, which anyone who has been to bootcamp knowns even if you are never
religious going into boot camp, to be able to have the opportunity to leave the training area and
go to a place where you could feel semi-human and like you were an individual or a person was
huge. And I remember also feeling very grateful for the opportunity to sit in pews with people
who were dressed in civilian clothes and sing the songs and just have that moment of feeling a
little bit like myself again, so.
So, yeah, it was… a great experience, my parents came down for graduation which was great
but honestly I spent most of the time celebrating with my fellow platoon mates, we were just so
excited and I remember I had asked my mom to bring a dress cause I wanted a dress, I wanted
to wear something feminine, and she brought this little sundress and it had a little like cropped
jean jacket that went with it, and so I went out to lunch with my parents, my brother was
probably there too, I went out to dinner and then we made plans to meet, everybody to meet up
later and one of the guys from my platoon, his parents were staying in the same hotel as my
�Wolfe, Jill
parents, and so he stopped by the room to pick me up. And I remember opening the door and
him seeing me in the dress with my hair down and just, he was just like, and I was just like,
“Woah.” So we did, we went out and somebody bought alcohol and we had a hotel room and we
just partied and hooked up and did all those things we hadn’t been allowed to do for a long time
but, it was kinda sort of anti-climatic because I was told that my security clearance still hadn’t
gone through, so I had to stay at bootcamp rather than go on to AIT which was Advanced
Individuals Training. (32:00)
Interviewer: What proportion of your platoon got through the whole thing?
That’s a good question. I think most of them probably did. I think there were two girls that got
sent back a rotation because of physical training, because they couldn’t do the push ups and
the sit ups. I was not good at the run, the run was really hard for me, and I–throughout my entire
time in the army I hated battalion runs, I hated having to run at the same pace as everyone else
because I inevitably fell behind and I inevitably would be… God, I don’t know what was worse:
having a drill sergeant next to me, you know, belittling me and telling me I was garbage, or
having a drill sergeant next to me telling me I could do it, yay, c’mon you just have to put a little,
you can do it! I hated it all so much and I was, I felt it was really embarrassing and I didn’t like
that part of it at all, but I did pass.
Interviewer: But you didn’t have a lot of people who just decided it wasn’t for them and
went away or anything like that?
I don’t remember that at all, no.
Interviewer: Alright. So, what did they have you do while you’re still hanging around Fort
Jackson?
I think it was like sweeping floors and it was not terrible, it was better than having something to
do all the time—oh, I do remember the first time we had a meal in the chow hall, that was kind
of a funny story. So we’re all waiting in line and I remember the girl behind me, we aren’t
supposed to talk, but she started asking me questions and she said “Where are you from?” and
I said, “Well, from the Detroit area.” and this drill sergeant heard and—big black guy—comes
running up “So you’re from Detroit? You’re from Detroit?” and I just thought mmmm, “No, Drill
Sergeant, I’m not from Detroit.” He goes “Then where are you from?” and I was like, “...Troy.”
and he was like “God damn it, you’re not from Detroit!” and starts screaming at me and I, yeah.
But you know, she was from Texas or somewhere so Detroit was the closest thing I could think
of but, so that happened and I was probably in the middle of the line, or maybe a little bit more
towards the front, so we got our food and we walk into like the seating area of the chow hall and
there’s like a low half wall that like divides the seating area, but the seating areas like pretty
much the same on both sides. And I remember the first guy out there kind of looking at one
seating area, looking at the other holding his tray and was like, okay, and he went over and he
sat down in this chair and started eating and like three drill sergeants run over to him like, “Are
you happy? Are you comfortable? Can I get you–” like “Do you need a glass of wine?” like
�Wolfe, Jill
woah! Start screaming at him! And it became clear after a while that that was the drill sergeant’s
seating area and we were supposed to sit on the other side, but of course they don’t tell you
that, right? That’s not—because then the learning comes from from just being so horrified on
what happens to somebody else, I remember that being with somebody walking on the grass,
too. Somebody the first time they walked on grass, first time you forgot your hat, all that stuff,
the punishment for that person was just unbelievable. So yeah, stayed there probably about… I
think it was probably about a week, and it was interesting because during that week my
grandfather, my maternal grandfather was a very wealthy man who owned companies in Asia,
east asia, that were related to the petroleum industry and he had a surprise audit from the IRS.
And so it was never clear, my mother swears that it was because my security clearance was
going through that that happened, but yeah when the audit was done I got my clearance to head
out to Pensacola, Florida so. (36:00)
Interviewer: Okay, so that is now where you get your advanced training, or do you go
with it—okay. Describe that.
So it was on a small little—it feels like it was like left over from World War II—called Cory
Station? And it was like a few miles from the Pensacola Naval Air Station where the Blue Angels
and all sorts of stuff. And I remember, same thing, like I’d taken the flight to get to Pensacola
and I got there and I didn’t—it wasn’t clear to me what I should do to get to the base when I
arrived at the airport but there was a taxi driver there and he said, “Well I’ll take you.” and I said,
“Okay.” And so he drove me there and he’s like “All right, well that’ll be $15.” or whatever and
I’m like “I don’t have $15.” I’m like, “I think the Army will pay you!” and he was like, ugh, you
know? And I could tell he tried to ask me a few questions so I think he had to eat it that night
because I just didn’t have a credit card, I just, you know, I was coming from boot camp so. And,
yeah, being at Cory Station I was there for about 6 months so I think I like arrived in, like August
sounds about right, and it was actually super fun. We were there with Army, Airforce, Navy and
Marines, so all of us were training together. Army was the only one that didn’t have to learn
morse code, so the Marines, Air Force, and the Navy had all—they all knew each other because
they’ve been, I think to Fort Huachuca in Arizona to learn morse code but for whatever reason
the Army didn’t have to do that. And we lived in this sort of quad, so like the Army was over
here, and the Navy was over here, and the Marines were here and we had a smoke shack over
here and then a central courtyard (Wolfe is making a visual map with her hands, starting on her
left and moving to the right.) And every once and awhile you would hear some commotion
outside and it was the Marines, their NCOs tossing the barracks, coming in and just tearing
everything out and I just remember thinking like, “Man, I am so glad I’m not a Marine.” It was…
they had it really tough. The Air Force were in, like, nicer barracks somewhere else of course
which was also weird but whatever. (38:00)
Interviewer: Well, that’s Air Force.
Yeah, like we were on the same base from what I remember, but…yeah and all the rest of us
were together and, you know we had, we went to school on shift training, so depending on your
seniority there you started off on third shift and so you went to school in the middle of the night
�Wolfe, Jill
and we had what’s called a SCIF: Secret Compartmented Information Facility, so we had to
have badges and all sorts of security issues to get into that. And Pensacola is just it’s a beautiful
little coastal city, blue collar, and so we’d go to class during the day and some of us ended up
having cars which was awesome. The longer you’d been there, we were there for 6 months, and
so we’d go to the beach during the day, made some really good friends there. I was in a room
with three other girls who I am—two of them I’m still friends with today, I wish I was still friends
with the other one because she was probably we were the closest of the four of us, but. I mean
you said to not say something, anything that Uncle Sam wouldn’t want to find out but I think this
is no problem at all, one of my roommates was sleeping with the drill sergeant. And worked out
pretty well for me, so I remember she also had a boyfriend back home and he would call in the
middle of the night and want to know where she was, I was like she’s not here, I don’t know.
And so yeah, we didn’t, you know, after awhile we kind of stopped showing up to formation and
again I was always really struggling with my runs, so that was okay with me, but somewhere in
the middle of that Hurricane Opal hit Pensacola and so that was really kind of a fun experience,
I’ll say that too. So they moved us all out of the barracks and moved us into the SCIF which
were these quonset huts basically, they were much more fortified, I think they were actually,
now that I think about it, old World War II airplane hangars that had been reinforced. And so
they put all the girls on one floor in one hanger and all the guys in the other and they gave us
these box lunches of bologna sandwiches and hard boiled eggs. So, it was… after about 24
hours of that it was pretty gross but I do remember standing at the door, they would occasionally
let us go poke our heads out and see what was going on and see the hurricane blowing out. So
then I passed and I remember being told that we might have to go help clean up the area, but
we never ended up having to do it and… yeah. So. (41:22)
Interviewer: So, to the extent that you can, describe the training that you got while you
were there.
Well it was… it was basically codebreaking, so looking at facts, teleprinter, I was terrible at it, it
was not—you know I’m a writer, I’m a creative person, and so looking at you know, we had to
do it all by hand. First learning how to, like, find patterns and numbers and date, it was really
hard and… I have most of it just blocked out, off, I mean I passed clearly I did well enough to
pass but then we got to the end of the course, 6 months of this, and they told us well you’re
gonna get to your first duty station and they’re gonna have computers that run all this. You
know, you’re never gonna use this again, so.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah, and I had come to find out that I was one of the last, so my MOS was 98 Kilo, Non-morse
communications specialist, I was one of the last 98 Kilos there were because we didn’t really
need code breakers for, this is what I assume, fax or teleprinter after awhile. So yeah, and again
I don’t remember a ton from the school; I do remember being in formation one time, and I don’t
know what had happened but—oh! The Navy is really hard with their rank, right? It’s hard to tell
who’s an officer and who’s a chief and whose enlisted and somebody saluted somebody they
shouldn’t have and so we got in trouble for that. And I remember my fellow platoon mates
�Wolfe, Jill
saying to me, like, “Hinton, why did you even join the Army?” like “You’re so quiet, you never
say anything, you’re like a mouse.” And it was funny cause I had never thought of myself like
that before, as quiet, but it was probably true like I just kept my head down and trying to figure
out who I needed to be in order to not get in trouble or get yelled at, so… So yeah, and I had
orders to go to Fort Georgia, I knew pretty much three quarters of the way through that I was
gonna go to Fort Georgia—no, Fort…
Interviewer: Was it a fort in Georgia?
Yes, it was in Georgia.
Interviewer: Fort Stewart?
Gordon.
Interviewer: Fort Gordon, okay.
Fort Gordon. There’s a military intelligence unit there.
Interviewer: Yup.
And I had started dating this guy who was also in the Army, I don’t know if you wanna hear
about that whole thing but he was a tanker and so he was gonna go to Fort Hood, and I had a
cousin, like a second cousin, who was pretty high up in the Army and was in the military
intelligence and so I had been talking to my parents, I’m like I don’t… maybe my parents, my
parents must have put the idea in my head, like “Let’s just ask him if you can change your
orders.” “Uhm… okay.” and I remember being in class one time, in Pensacola, and somebody
knocked on the door and opened it up and it was somebody in Administration or somebody, and
says “You need to come with me right now.” And as we’re always like, okay, I didn’t say what it
was about or anything and as we were walking he must have said something to me like “I don’t
know who you talked to or what buttons you pushed but the whole unit is up and running around
trying to find you a new assignment because this Colonel from another unit is asking to change
your assignment.” I was like Oh… I didn’t realize that was going to happen and so I went down
to the office and it was him on the phone, and I think I was sort of embarrassed and said “I
don’t… whatever it’s fine.” and he’s like “Well do you want to go to Texas?” and I’m like “I guess,
yeah, that’d be nice.” and he said “Alright, well I’ll see what I can do.” and pretty quickly the
orders were changed to San Antonio, so. So yeah. I went home for… after training was over, I
went home for hometown recruiter, but when I got—I signed up for it, but when I got there, the
recruiter was like “I don’t have any record of you signing up for this, I don’t really have anything
for you to do.” and I was like. Okay. I didn’t know if I was gonna get in trouble for not doing it but
I ended up having four weeks leave at that point because I think I had… maybe it was 2 weeks.
Must have been 2 weeks. A week of leave from just my time in and I was stationed in San
Antonio and my dad was gonna drive me down from Detroit, and it was over Christmas I
remember, and my car broke down on the way there and my dad, we were in Kansas city, and
�Wolfe, Jill
my dad’s like “We’ll just buy this car.” and we went to this dealership and I didn’t have, you
know, any money or, you know, and he co-signed for me and we got a new car, I had a new car
when I arrived in San Antonio. And he must have flown back. And I feel like there was one or
two people that I knew there from AIT, but didn’t know too many people. It was on Kelly Air
Force Base and I found out that when you first get to a duty station you have to spend like four
weeks picking up cigarette butts and washing humvees, but when I got there, there was an
option to work at the gym on post and I was like, okay sure I’ll work there. But it was a night shift
and the kind of bad thing about that was everyone else who was picking up cigarette butts and
washing humvees got to kind of know each other and I never did, I never made any really close
friends there. So I was doing that, working at the gym, and it was a small… the 748th Military
Intelligence Battalion on Kelly Air Force Base, same thing you know, that purple suit, so we had
Navy and Marines there as well and the place where we all worked was another SCIF that was
on Medina… I don’t know what they call it. Medina Air Base? But then I know they train the
military police dogs there. We would drive by and see them train.
And so one day on my day off I went up to headquarters and I said, you know, in high school I
was the newsletter editor—the newspaper editor, and I’ve just always been a writer, I was
talking to the… I think it was Sergeant First Class I think, and you know can I write an article for
the battalion newsletter? And he said “You know what? You can have the whole thing, here’s
the camera, gimmie the paperwork, here. You’re off duty, you’re not gonna work at the SCIF
anymore, you can be our public affairs officer.” Which is crazy, I was an E3 at the time, but he
was close to retirement and hated all of it, hated everything from what I remember he was so
grumpy, and I was like okay! And then I became this news reporter for the battalion and took
over and redesigned the whole thing and got to interview the Commander and got to go out and
take pictures and I had just a ton of freedom and it was really cool. It was awesome, actually,
though I remember one time I made a typo in the Commander’s, the CO’s letter, and I had to
have the righted version printed up, cut it out, and I pasted like 300 cause she didn’t want that
typo on there so I was like alright. But… and I was close to my boyfriend who was in San
Antonio so I would drive up to Fort Hood every weekend, it was about two and a half hours, pick
him up and drive him back because I had my own room because I was on an air force base.
One of the stories I often tell is that we have, you know, we’d have a battalion run once a month
and I remember being out there in the dark and the whole battalion was lined up and our
battalion CO was this... She was probably 5’3”, redheaded, just from Boston and I remember
her being up in front of the entire unit and just saying, “Let’s show the Air Force that the Army is
here to stay.” in this like thick Boston accent and we all just like, came very close to losing it, it
was very funny but… had a really great Command Sergeant Major there and just. It was
awesome, San Antonio’s a beautiful city, tourists, you know, hiked and went to the river walk
and did all this great stuff, my boyfriend was pretty close by. Well, one morning I go out for PT
and I run into one of the administrative guys that was in the unit and he said “Hey!” like, “It’s kind
of awesome, got new orders that came down!” and I said, “New orders?” he’s like “Yeah!” he’s
like, “You’re going to Korea.” and I was like. What? No, everything was perfect, I’d actually I
think gotten engaged at that point much to my parent’s chagrin and so I went to First Sergeant
and I said—cause the people had told me you can ask, for your first time, you can change—and
so I went to First Sergeant and asked him like, “How do I get out of this?” and he said, “Well,
�Wolfe, Jill
you can either get pregnant or smoke pot.” and neither one of those were options for me, so. I
went. (51:21)
Interviewer: Mmhm. All right. So when do you go to Korea?
I left for Korea in…I feel like it must have been April. March or April of ‘97, eloped, decided—my
boyfriend at the time said, “If you go to Korea and anything happens to you, if I’m just your
boyfriend they won’t let me come see you or I will have absolutely no power, we have to get
married, we have to get married.” Again, not wanting to hurt anybody’s feelings, I married him.
Shotgun, yeah, went down to the Justice of the Peace. Actually had had a whole wedding
planned and my mother begged me not to do it so I called off the sort of wedding at home that
we’d had, but then once we got back to San Antonio he convinced me to go down to the Justice
of the Peace and if you’re military you can, you don’t have a waiting period, so we just did it.
(Wolfe sighs heavily.) So, shipped out to Korea. Got there… I remember we stayed in this big
fancy hotel in Seoul, like Seoul was just a… I’d never seen anything like it before. Enormous
city. Again, got there in the middle of the night, it was a long, long flight, and them must’ve taken
a bus out to Camp Humphreys and it was a helicopter base, from what I understand it was the
largest helicopter base outside of the continental United States. And… same thing actually
happened, I was washing humvees and picking up cigarette butts and we were, a bunch of us
were in First Sergeant’s office waiting to get our next assignment, he came out and he said—he
was pissed—he said, “I need some volunteers.” and I had learned very early on civilian world
volunteering people are like “Wow, that’s really great, thank you for doing that!” but the military
was not like that. You often got real shit jobs when you volunteered for stuff so I kind of, like
everybody else, started looking the other and making myself as small as possible, but then he
said “I need somebody, I need two of you to be lifeguards to go off duty and you know get
disconnected, detached from our unit and be lifeguards.” and I thought… hm. That doesn’t
sound too bad. So that’s what happened and went and did this kind of amazing training up in
Seoul at the American school there learning not only how to be a lifeguard but how to train
lifeguards. Took classes, I remember one class we were talking about open head injuries and I
am not really good with blood and stuff and so I ended up passing out in that class. First and
only time that ever happened but, yeah, so then was assigned to one of the three pools we had
on post and got my own apartment off post which was great, unheard of for enlisted to be able
to have that and I worked at the pool and I got to do all sorts of really cool stuff and it was quite
awesome and one of the things that we got to do was they did pilot water emergency training so
they had these big pvc cages that they built with like simulated pilot seats and they’d strap in the
pilots and then put like blacked out goggles over them and push them over backwards into the
water and then they had to get out of the harness and they had like a little oxygen thing. And I
remember they asked us if we wanted to try it and I think they got almost to the point where I
was back and it was like “Stop, stop stop it I can’t do this” so. I didn’t end up doing it. Saved a
couple people who were really struggling, we had Korean augmentees to the US Army who
were Korean soldiers who were stationed on post with us and they were not very good
swimmers and generally speaking, so that felt good, and just had a nice sort of comradery with
my fellow lifeguards who were pulled from units all over the post. (55:23)
�Wolfe, Jill
Interviewer: What unit were you officially serving with?
Third MI Battalion.
Interviewer: Okay.
Bravo company.
Interviewer: So your code breaking career never really went anywhere, then? How long
were you in Korea?
14 months. (55:37)
Interviewer: Okay. Now did you get to travel around in Korea or go anywhere else from
there?
I did, one of the good things about being Korea in a military intelligence unit was that many,
many of my colleagues spoke the language so we got to get on in the economy way more than
probably most American soldiers did, in fact we went to Seoul and we were at the Hard Rock
Cafe, just a quick side story, and the waiter was just so enamored with us and offered to take us
fishing and so we had a whole adventure with him where we taught him how to sing
Clementine? Like, “Oh my darling, oh my darling”—he wanted to learn that so bad and we
traded some, he was a terrible fisherman and we traded, we brought some mountain dews with
us on the fishing trip and we ended up trading our mountain dews for fish when we were at a
fishing place and… yeah, so, I, you know, most American soldiers stay within the sort of
immediate, we call it the ville, it’s just bars and, you know, pawn shops, so.
Interviewer: Well, how far is the base from Seoul?
It was only about 40 miles from what I understand but because of the traffic it took us like an
hour and a half to ride there, and so we would occasionally go there because there was more
shopping and it was just like a vacation. Same thing with Osan Air Base, they had a Mexican
restaurant at Osan, which was an air force base so. Yeah, and I remember when we got there
they told us we would have this thing called the Korean crud because the air quality was so bad
in Korea that when you would breathe it in the first month you would just spend hacking and
coughing until your lungs got used to it. I don’t know if that was a real thing or not, but it seemed
to happen to a lot of people, so.
Interviewer: Okay, now while you were there were there any concerns about what the
North Koreans were doing or anything that might come up?
I don’t remember it being—I mean, so I had a top secret security clearance but I didn’t work in
the SKIF. But I had to go do some training to make sure I was up on my skills or something, and
I would occasionally hear some North Koreans had lobbed a artillery or something over the
�Wolfe, Jill
border. And I remember one time calling my mom when it had been particularly bad and saying
“Don’t worry, I’m all set, I’m fine.” and she was like “What are you talking about?” and I was
really surprised that this had not made the American news, that this had happened. I said,
“Never mind, it’s fine.” so. I remember that you could go up to the DMZ and do a tour of it there
and I had friends that did that and took a video camera with them and came back and we were
watching the video together and it was very very surreal because they filmed the Korean
soldiers on the other side of that room, you know, that has the line down it like this is North
Korea and this is South Korea. I may have, now that I think about it, sort of. There was lots of
stories about North Korean submarines and people getting kidnapped and stuff, so it was very
weird and strange to be in a country that was still at war, and to hear how badly things were up
in the north. We did hear that. But because I worked at the pool, and, you know later once the
pools closed I did spend some time in flight operations so our unit had a, what we called a “fixed
wing”, an airplane. Most of the aircraft on the base were helicopters but they had a signals
collection airplane and so I worked in the battalion operations center making sure the pilots had
their vests and their codes and everything they needed in order to fly, so I did that for a brief
amount of time.
Interviewer: All right, anything else about the Korean stint that stands out in your
memory?
Well my… husband, at the time, he had a two year enlistment. He was a tanker at Fort Hood,
and he was supposed to come over in September and didn’t. October, November, finally he
came over in December and I had my own apartment off post so this worked out pretty well.
And he got there and it was terrible, we fought, he drank a ton, I worked all the time and so I
said “Clearly this is a mistake, you need to go home.” and he agreed and so I sent him home
and then two months later I called him and said, “Guess what? I’m pregnant.” So, yeah. It was
my daughter who is now 23? We would say she was made in Korea, so, yeah. I had thought
maybe I would stay in and maybe become a warrant officer, either do…become a helicopter
pilot or be a linguist, learn a language. But in the end the pregnancy kind of made that
impossible, so.
Interviewer: Okay, alright, well this tape is about up so we are going to pause right here.
Okay.
(The screen briefly cuts to black as the tape is changed.)
Interviewer: Okay, so at this point in your story you’ve been in Korea, you’ve been spent
a lot of it working at the pool, you had your boyfriend come out, mess up the
relationship, get you pregnant, go away. At that point how much time did you have left in
Korea?
Right, he was technically my husband.
�Wolfe, Jill
Interviewer: Yes, yes, he was.
So, yeah. He left in January, I sent him home right after the holidays and my enlistment was up
in May, so I think I had arrived in, like I said, March or April so most tours to Koreas were a 12month tour but they weren’t going to send me to another duty station for 14 months—or, for 2
extra months, so. I ended up being in Korea for 14 months but before he arrived, and remember
I had said that, you know, he was supposed to come in September when his enlistment was up
and September came and October and it wasn’t until…I think it was right after Thanksgiving he
came. During that time, especially there at the end, sort of August, September, I was working at
the pool and I had become very close with the other lifeguards in the pool who were taken from
all units. But there was one in particular, he was from a transportation unit, and when I had kind
of made it clear that I was married and that whatever he thought was gonna happen, like I was
happy to be friends and pal around and, you know, go to the bar, but really wasn’t gonna go
beyond that. And there were two of them, like the three of us were pretty close, and the one guy
was fine with that, and the other guy just really kind of got in his craw about it and the most I sort
of… ignored him, his comments, or rolled my eyes, or tried to find other places to be when he
was there, the more aggressive he got. And the more vulgar he got. And I would come home
from work into—and I’d stop by my old barracks, so I had an apartment off post but my unit, I
was detached from my unit, was still there and I still knew some of the guys over there, and
girls. And I’d stop by in the barracks and have a coke or you know they’d be watching TV and
just be like, it’s just bad. I could just—everything out of his mouth is some sort of snide comment
or judgment about my body or personality, and you know I’m in a swimsuit all day, so… and
they would listen and be like, “Yeah, that sucks.” but after a while I think one of them said, “You
know, Jilly, you come home every day and talk about this, you come over here, maybe you
should do something about it.” and you know, like probably a lot of women at that age and at
that time, I didn’t really want him to get in trouble, I just wanted him to stop. And so, finally I was
convinced because he wouldn’t stop, and I was nervous even getting dressed in the locker room
at the pool, and so I filed a complaint against him. And I was pulled from that pool and put on
duty at another pool, so I was at the main pool, which is a bigger pool. And there was a smaller
pool that was much closer to my unit, so I was put there, but at that time it was… September,
October, we still had the pools open and I just never heard from it again. I don’t know what
happened to him. (1:04:34)
Interviewer: He did not come and harass you after that? Okay. Well that was something.
Yeah, I mean like towards the very end we were at the bar and he did not have a TV, and this is
again before my husband had arrived, and I had this little black and white…older kind of thing,
and I thought maybe if I give him this TV to borrow he’ll lay off. And so… I, what ended up
happening was I stopped by his barracks with the TV and dropped it off and he offered me a
beer, so we were kind of sitting there drinking it and he started kissing me and I like, probably let
it go on a little bit longer than I should have but not too long and I said, “You know what? Nope.”
like “This just is not a good idea and I’m married.” and he didn’t stop, and he kept going, and
finally after getting pretty violent and kicking and pushing and just doing everything I could to get
away from him, like, I did and just ran out of there. And so, I guess like at that point it was like,
�Wolfe, Jill
okay, now he’s never gonna leave me alone. So that’s actually when I ended up sort of filing it
and, you know I had gone not that long ago when I started this job working with military students
here at Grand Valley, I hadn’t really—I mean I’ve always stayed connected with military
nonprofits and the entrepreneurship lab and, but I hadn’t really worked very closely with
veterans and honestly when I started this job it kind of brought up a lot of that kind of stuff and
my students have gone through a lot of that, so I applied to… look into getting, you know,
service connected because it was really hard after that, I mean like… My husband came and I
got pregnant and it was just some really bad, dark years after that, and… and so more recently I
looked into a plot filing a claim, and so we ordered my paperwork to see if there was any record
that I had filed this complaint against him and there wasn’t, so I just decided to never pursue it
anymore. I mean, it was shitty, but I have lived a pretty full and good life and I know there's a lot
of women who have undergone much worse or less worse and just didn’t handle it as well,
didn’t end up being able to process it and didn’t have the support from family and friends to be
able to kind of process it and get past it, so. That’s kind of my story. (1:07:17)
Interviewer: And at least when you did report it there was not retaliation or whatever.
Never saw him again.
Interviewer: And the problem basically got fixed on that level.
Yes, and that’s what I had wanted. I just wanted it to stop, which is why, I mean like looking
back now that could have told my younger self, like, “You make sure you get that shit
documented.” but at the time, like I said, all I wanted was it to stop and that’s what happened
and I spent the rest of my time in Korea—it was not great, you know, like I said I had my
husband came over and we fought the whole time, and by that time almost all of my friends had
since out-processed out and had gone to other duty stations and so I didn’t really know anybody
and I was so ready to leave Korea when I did, so.
Interviewer: Now when you leave Korea, that’s basically the end of your enlistment now?
Mmhm.
Interviewer: Alright, so what’s the discharge process, you know… how did that all work?
Well it’s funny because I hear my students say this a lot, like I just wanted to get out. I was
pregnant so I failed my last PT test and I felt like it just doesn’t even matter. But my parents
were living in DC at the time and I could still get covered under military health insurance so… I
flew back to Michigan to be with my husband, we spent about two weeks there and then moved
to DC where I was at the military hospital there, Bethesda, for maybe a month and a half before
I got health care coverage and ended up having the baby in a civilian hospital, but I don’t
remember a ton about the out-processing, I just wanted out. I was done, I was sad and baby
was not in my… had not been in my plans and so while I had never thought of terminating the
pregnancy, I wasn’t especially excited to have to put college on hold and to also be married to
�Wolfe, Jill
this person who I had clearly gotten married to under the wrong conditions, so. I mean we
ended up staying together for… I think a total of 12 years maybe? And so we had another baby
together and those kids are wonderful and they’re amazing, we got divorced about 8 years ago
after we decided we made better friends than spouses, and so we have a mostly positive
relationship, but at the time getting out of the Army was just total… it was chaos. I remember
being told that because of my security clearance I could get a job in DC working for the national
security agency or any number of security agencies, but I had no idea how to go about that or
who to talk to or where to submit my resume so I worked as a secretary. Came back—had the
baby, came back and started Grand Valley when she was 3 months old, so.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so when did you graduate from Grand Valley?
I graduated in the… was it the Fall? Must have been the Fall of 2001.
Interviewer: Okay.
Right after September 11th. (1:10:40)
Interviewer: Alright. And then what kind of career did you go into?
Well like I said I’d always been a writer, so when I came back to Grand Valley I told the story of
the videos on the 50 for 50. I had Grace, my daughter, and I already had credits here so I came
down and signed up for classes, or I applied and got in and then had to sign up for classes, but I
didn’t know what I wanted to do. I had been an English major when I first started cause I love
writing but it turns out when English you have to read a whole lot and I just want to read the
books that I want to read, I want to read literature so… I thought Health Communications and,
but I had to go see my advisor, and so I remember pulling her up the stairs in Lake Superior Hall
in this huge stoller and just thinking, “What am I doing here?” like “This is nuts, I can go get a
job, this is not for me, none of these students look like me.” and I got to my advisor’s office, you
know, had just been given a piece of paper “Here’s your advisor” and he wasn’t there. And so I
think I was crying and the woman across the hall, the faculty member, her name was Betty
Pritchard, came out to see what was wrong. Lavished praise and adoration all over my child
which never hurts, “Beautiful baby, oh my God, come on in.” and she was an advertising NPR
professor? And she’s like, “Well if you’re a writer, PR might be for you.” and I was like, okay.
And turns out it was a great career for me and I did great at school and I got an internship at a
PR agency and the internship turned into a job offer, and it was the same job offer that my
fellow interns got who were 4 or 5 years younger than me? And I was like, “I have military
experience, I’ve been a Public Affairs Officer.” and they begrudgingly gave me like another
thousand dollars a year, but… Like, military service, like when I was at Grand Valley I thought I
was the only Veteran here. There was nothing for veterans, so. But it was weird being in class, I
remember the first class was an art history class, I sat at the very front of the classroom, got
there 10 minutes early, nobody’s there. Once the class starts everybody’s—people were talking
behind me and I’m like… “You’re gonna get kicked out of this!” like what’s your—I am here to
learn! You don’t know what I’ve been through to be here so just shut up everybody! And so I
�Wolfe, Jill
was married and I had a kid and that helped me not feel quite so isolated but it was, ugh, being
the military was weird and people didn’t know how to take it and especially being female, I think
back then it was just not as normal, so. So yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. So, you basically go into kind of a PR career, was that?
Yeah. So they hired me at the PR agency, from there I got a job offer to go work in corporate
PR at a automotive manufacturer which mostly turned into internal communications, so writing
the employee newsletter and stuff and, yeah worked in several different corporate PR
departments before deciding to—through a business plan competition that was just for female
military veterans, which was awesome, I thought my chances are great at winning this, and I
did. So I got some money and started my own business. First it was a organization—it was a
company called Outdoor Book Club where I would take women hiking and backpacking and
we’d talk about a book, and then that turned into a team building company and then when the
pandemic hit, of course team building was no longer something companies wanted to pay for
and, but this position at Grand Valley as the Military and Veterans Resource Manager came up
and I had been volunteering—well I guess they pay me a little bit of money to facilitate the
Michigan Veterans Entrepreneur Lab, and I was a business owner and I was a veteran, and so I
did that. And so when this position opened up I had already had experience at Grand Valley, by
that time I had gotten divorced and remarried to a faculty member here, my kids were going
here and so having the opportunity to come and work with military veterans here at Grand
Valley seemed weird but also totally obvious and like there’s no other way it could have been.
And it’s been—I’ve been here… a year and a half probably and it’s been the best 18 months of
my career, I love working with veterans, I love their stories. A lot of them have heard the stories
that I’ve told on this tape, it’s been incredible. (1:15:41)
Interviewer: What kinds of things do you actually do in this job?
I—basically anything veterans need in order to be successful at school, I’m here to help. So a
lot of professionals that have my job at other schools do work with the VA to certify GI Bill
benefits; I don’t have to do that, which is great, it’s one of the awesome things about Grand
Valley. We have a whole team in the registrar’s office that does nothing but certify GI Bill
benefits. So my job is basically to connect them: one of my favorite things to do is connect them
with internships and employers that are looking for really, really good people that have
incredible experiences, so I just last night connect an Army veteran who's graduating with like a
3.98 in his history education and he’s teaching in a long-term sub and he loves it and I said,
“Well is there a district that you want to work in?” He’s like, “Well I really like to work in this one
district.” and I’m like “Great! I know a history teacher in this district. You guys should have
coffee.” and so doing that kind of stuff is kind of my favorite, but I also plan events, pizza parties,
working on an initiative right now to get more veterans into leadership. So senior leadership,
executive positions, how do we give them the civilian skills, how do we translate their military
experiences into civilian advantages for companies and nonprofits, so. If, you know, we have
some active duty reservists, if they’re getting deployed I make sure that their professors know
what their options are as far as taking classes. I did get a call from a student the other night,
�Wolfe, Jill
night before last, “I’m failing all of my classes, here we are in December, can I drop them?” Well,
let's sit down and talk about what your options are. So I also work with the military spouses and
dependents, so if they’re needing scholarships or, you know, whatever it is that I can point them
to, I’m basically like a triage for helping them get their problems solved.
Interviewer: Alright. Well we’re certainly glad to have you here, we now have a pretty
substantial Student Veteran Cohort. Some of them wind up making it in the mainstream
warfare class, and some of them usually survive.
(Wolfe laughs.)
Interviewer: But, yeah, I’d suffice to close here by thanking you for taking the time to
share the story today.
It was my pleasure. (1:18:15)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WolfeJ2386V
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wolfe, Jill H.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-12
Title
A name given to the resource
Wolfe, Jill (Interview transcript and video), 2021
Description
An account of the resource
Jill Wolfe was born in December 1975 in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma to a mother who worked as an art therapist and a father who worked negotiating contracts. She moved to St. Louis, Missouri when she was 3, and moved again to Troy when she was 15 where she stayed until she graduated high school in 1994. Wolfe applied to and was accepted by both Michigan State University and Grand Valley State University. Several weeks before she was meant to leave for Grand Valley, her mother said she should join the Army instead, but she refused. Her father was in ROTC during Vietnam and his older brother was a career officer for 25 years, but Wolfe does not consider herself to come from a military family. After a lackluster semester of college, Wolfe came into contact with a recruiter following an argument with her parents about them wanting her to get a job to pay for her tuition, or else they would not send her back for a second semester. She originally was uninterested in the pitch but said she “...didn’t want to disappoint anyone” and left to think about it further, settling that service was a potential solution to her monetary issues. Her ASVAB score qualified her for several high-clearance positions of which she selected Non-morse Communications Specialist which would take 3 years. Wolfe was shipped out in 1995 to a holding unit in Fort Jackson, South Carolina before later being transported to boot camp in the same state, she recalls boot camp as being the most physically exhausted she has ever been “aside from giving birth” and Wolfe waited several weeks before being sent to San Antonio, Texas due to clearance issues. She was later sent to Camp Humphreys near Seoul, South Korea with the 3rd MI Battalion Bravo Company for 14 months on orders in 1997. In Korea, Wolfe volunteered as a lifeguard at a nearby pool and remembers being able to own an apartment off post and enjoying the thriving city life. 3 months before the end of her term in Korea, Wolfe found out she was pregnant and was forced to discharge and return home. Wolfe returned to Grand Valley and graduated in 2001, going on to work in PR and eventually become the Military and Veterans Resource Manager at Grand Valley where she continues to work today, assisting veterans in their schooling.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/269d4537b91049853d1d97fba49969d9.m4v
b8bdf6035ee779b17137ec165bd49eff
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d2c2149ce61865ac071c55b2f566d928.pdf
b898a03515f4184f8d534f48169d44d3
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Robert Witzig
World War II
45 minutes 55 seconds
(00:00:23) Early Life
-Born on August 22, 1924, in Grant County, Wisconsin
-Had a vegetable garden during the Great Depression to supplant their meals
-Family lived on a dairy farm
-Went fishing to add to meals
-Nine children in the family
-Five boys and four girls
-As of the interview he is the only child left
-Four of the boys went to war
-He and another brother survived, but the other two did not
(00:04:06) Start of the War
-He was in senior year of high school when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor
-People were angry about the attack but had difficulty understanding what happened
-The concept of large-scale, mechanized warfare was foreign to a lot of people
(00:05:24) Enlisting in the Navy
-Graduated from high school in May 1942
-Some of his brothers were already in the military when he graduated
-Enlisted in the Navy in early 1943
(00:06:44) Basic Training
-Sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois, for basic training
-Completely new experience and didn't know what to expect
-Only familiar part of training was shooting rifles
(00:07:44) Boarding the USS Indianapolis (CA-35)
-Boarded a train and went to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, then went across the country
-Sent to Naval Station Treasure Island in San Francisco, California
-Stayed there for a few days
-A dozen men, including himself, were selected to go to San Francisco
-Boarded the USS Indianapolis (CA-35) in late 1943
-Placed in the Fire Control Division on the ship
-Part of the crew that fired the ship's guns
(00:09:53) Pacific Theater & Battle of Okinawa
-The Indianapolis participated in ten major operations in the Pacific Theater
-He participated in nine of them
-The ship was hit by a kamikaze plane on March 31, 1945, off the coast of Okinawa
-He was lightly injured by the attack
-Sailed back to San Francisco for repairs
(00�:11:40) Delivery of the Atomic Bomb
-Several large wooden boxes and a smaller steel box were loaded onto the ship in San Francisco
-Box was brought to the captain's quarters and bolted to the floor
-Nobody knew what the boxes contained
-These boxes contained the components of the atomic bomb used on Hiroshima
-Sailed to Tinian without escort to deliver the atomic bomb components
�-Carried a tremendous amount of fuel and ammunition
-Planned on rejoining the fleet at Okinawa
-Unloaded the bomb components at Tinian then continued with their voyage
(00:14:20) Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
-A little after midnight on July 30, 1945, two torpedoes struck the ship
-This resulted in the fuel and ammunition exploding, destroying a third of the ship
-He was sleeping at the time and was on his feet before he knew it
-Jumped off the ship when he was 74 feet above the water
-Ship sank within 13 minutes
-He went underwater, and stayed underwater for eight minutes
-Came up and vomited, then started swimming away from the ship
(00:17:45) Survival after the Sinking
-In the water for so long that the life jacket swelled and the canvas began to tear
-Had skin damage, but the salt water helped him heal
-Found a group of survivors clinging to a cargo net
-Had to be conscious about expending his energy staying afloat
-Sharks could smell blood in an eight mile radius
-None of the sharks attacked him
-Felt sharks brush against his feet and legs
-Close enough that he could reach down and touch them
(00:25:41) Rescue & Recovery
-Saw the plane piloted by Lieutenant Gwinn and Lieutenant Colwell
-They reported the discovery of the survivors
-The USS Cecil J. Doyle picked him up along with the other survivors on the cargo net
-Ship sent out landing crafts to pick them up and bring them to the ship
-Given a shower and a place to sleep on the ship
-Sailed to the Philippines, past the place where future president George HW Bush was rescued
-While at the Philippines he and the other survivors were placed in a Red Cross hospital
-Red Cross nurses gave them blankets and coats
-Stayed at the hospital for two weeks
-Chance to relax and heal
(00:30:10) End of the War
-Didn't know about their secret cargo until after the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan
-Too busy at the time to reflect on their participation in helping to end the war
(00:31:22) Homecoming & End of Service
-Once he had recovered more in the Philippines he and the other survivors sailed to Guam
-Met a nurse from Milwaukee
-Stayed at the hospital on Guam for six or seven weeks
-Sailed to Pearl Harbor then boarded a ship and sailed to San Diego, California
-Survivors were thrown a homecoming parade in San Diego
-Shook hands with Hollywood stars
-Flown to Great Lakes Naval Station and discharged there in late 1945
-Hitchhiked home
(00:36:39) Life after the War Pt. 1
-Lost two of his brothers in the war
-Both served in the Army
-One in the European Theater and one in the Pacific Theater
-Got married twice after the war
-Had two daughters and a son
�(00:37:37) Court-martial of Captain McVay Pt. 1
-Read about Captain McVay's court-martial in the newspaper
-Thought he was a good man that treated his crew well
-Remembers shaking hands with him at one point
(00:39:19) USS Indianapolis Reunions
-Went to some of the crew reunions
-Stopped going in later years because it was too far and cost too much money
(00:40:07) Life after the War Pt. 2
-Family did steelwork and welding
-Got into that work and made a career out of it
(00:41:40) Remembering the USS Indianapolis
-Already has his headstone designed
-Has an image of the USS Indianapolis
-Along with a note that it delivered the atom bomb components to Tinian to end the war
(00:43:15) Contact with Home
-When he wrote home it had to be censored
-Accepted it
-He didn't know much information anyway, so there was very little to tell
-Usually didn't have time to focus on details to write home about anyway
(00:44:00) Court-martial of Captain McVay Pt. 2 & Exoneration
-Happy that the government exonerated Captain McVay
-Felt that the government wanted a scapegoat for losing the ship, and they picked McVay
-Note: The Navy had failed to send out a search party after receiving a distress signal
The Japanese submarine captain said nothing could have been done to avoid the sinking
-Survivors were angered that their captain was put on trial rather than the Navy accept responsibility
-Note: In October 2000 Congress passed a resolution in favor of exoneration
In July 2001, the Secretary of the Navy ordered McVay's record purged of the trial
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_WitzigR1941V
Title
A name given to the resource
Witzig, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2016
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-09
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Witzig was born on August 22, 1924, in Grant County, Wisconsin. He enlisted in the Navy in early 1943 and received his basic training at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois. He went to Naval Station Treasure Island, California, and was selected to go aboard the USS Indianapolis (CA-35) and served in the ship's fire control division (firing the ship's gun). He participated in the ship's major operations in the Pacific Theater in 1944 and 1945, including the invasion of Okinawa. After the ship's repairs in California, he participated in the delivery of the atomic bomb components to the island of Tinian. On July 30, 1945, the USS Indianapolis was torpedoed and sank. Robert abandoned ship and was one of the 317 men to survive the sinking. After five days he was rescued, and recovered in the Philippines and at Guam. He returned to the United States and was discharged at Great Lakes Naval Station in late 1945.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Witzig, Robert
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hammond, Steve (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/29b418a1b255ed191acfc79d142fbc2d.mp4
5b8941e2ccd747a83e5adae108434533
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/52e7e6032ff1efc16721fb286672d851.pdf
07004ed830f37171b9c75b8f2baa0195
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Cold War
Name of Interviewee: Loyd Winer
Length of Interview: 00:44:32
Background:
Born April 23, 1929.
He served in the Navy during the Vietnam War and achieved a Lieutenant rank.
He went to Grand Rapids South High school and went to Junior College. When he went
to college he belonged to the US Marine Reserve.
When he went to Michigan State University to finish his studies, he left the Marine
reserves as well.
During those times, there were selective services, which meant that he would be drafted.
While he was a MSU, they made him go to Detroit to get a physical exam to see if he was
physically able to serve and he was.
The only way he could not go into the service right away was to stay in college. And
they called him when he was in college to see if he met all the requirements needed,
grade-wise and such to make sure that he could still remain out of the service.
He got near the end of his senior year and he knew that he was either going to go into the
Army or something else
The Navy recruiting office came to the college and they said if he passed their physical
he would be a candidate. So he passed everything fine, except his blood pressure, which
he had never had a problem with before.
So they told him to lie down and they kept checking it, but it was still high. He explained
to the doctor that he had never had this problem before and if they did not take him he
would have to go into the Army, and he did not want to go. So the doctor wrote down
that his blood pressure was ok.
So then he was in a group of 10,000 applicants, of which 1,000 of them would go to
Officer’s Training School.
When he graduated in June of 1952, he thought he would have a chance to go, but he
never heard from them. The draft board told him that if he doesn’t hear from them, he
would have to go into the Army.
His dad suggested that he go see Gerald Ford, the representative at the time, so he did.
Mr. Ford told him that he could either pay him to call down and find out, or wait until he
can send out a telegram and come back tomorrow to find out. So he waited.
Then next day he went back and there was the telegram. He had been accepted in class 8
and was to leave in October or 1952.
So Mr. Ford signed the telegram and he brought it to the draft board.
He would work for the highway department for the next couple of months, until he went
into service.
When it was time for him to go into service, he took a bus to Detroit, a train to Boston, a
bus down to Rhode Island.
That is where Officer Candidate School was.
�Officer Candidate School/CIC Officer Training (4:40)
Officer Candidate School lasted from October to the following March.
Only 600 graduated. A couple committed suicide because they did not graduate.
From there he had two choices: he could go to an electronics school in California, to
become and electronics officer or go to a Naval Air Station to become a CIC Officer,
which was Combat Information Center Officer.
Since his future wife was still in school at MSU, he picked Chicago because it was
closest to home, not necessarily knowing what would happen.
When he got there he would train to work in a combat information center. This would
include radio, radar, control equipment. You learned to navigate the ship, you learned
how to use the countermeasures equipment, radios, radars, etc.
When he graduated from that he was given two choices again: Atlantic or Pacific, and
what size of combatant ship you want to be on.
So he picked the Atlantic and an aircraft carrier.
So they assigned him to the USS Gilbert Islands, a "jeep" carrier that was stationed in
Boston.
Active Duty on the Atlantic (7:15)
At the time, this ship was an anti-submarine aircraft carrier. This means that they looked
for submarines with the planes.
On the ship he was the CIC Officer and was also in charge of the electronic
countermeasures, photographic lab and a few other things.
He took this ship on a tour overseas to the Mediterranean, he was there for 6 months and
then came back and out again to the Atlantic several times and it was finally decided that
the ship was to be decommissioned.
The ship was a former freighter that had been turned into a small aircraft carrier.
So again he was face with two choices: Atlantic or Pacific and the size of the combatant
ship.
Normally, after you have 18 months at sea, you get a shore duty job. At the time, his
expertise would only allow him to go at sea. So he picked another aircraft carrier and the
Atlantic.
Just before he picked that, his wife graduated from college. In June of 1954, he drove
home on a Friday night, got married on a Saturday, and on Sunday they both drove back
to Boston.
He was then assigned to the fleet carrier USS Ticonderoga. At the time this ship was
being re-commissioned in Brooklyn, NY.
So he and his wife lived in Boston for a couple of days but then moved to Brooklyn and
he went on the ship.
Because it was still in the harbor at the time, he was assigned to be the senior shore patrol
officer on Manhattan Island. So every third night, he slept at the police station.
He was there mainly to take care of any drunk officers that the patrolmen came across
while working.
�
Every night, in the Navy car, two enlisted men would take him to places that were off
limits to Navy personnel. So they would go and check these places out.
Because they were off limits, the manager of the bar would beg him to let their place be
on-limits, but he had no control over that. He was only there to check.
This one night, there was a fight at Yankee Stadium between a couple a famous fighters.
So they went to the fight and drove up to a police officer and said that they were the
official shore patrol and they needed to know where to park. He blew his whistle,
stopped all traffic and told them to park in a no parking spot.
They go into the stadium, figure out they need to enter in the police entrance and walked
in.
So they were up, behind 3rd base, but the fight was near 2nd, and there were people in
folding chairs on the ground. Police were all around the outfield making sure more
people don’t get in.
So they went over to the gate and said they were the Official Shore Patrol Contingent for
the field, and the man let them through. So they stood behind the people with chairs and
watched the fight. (13:15)
Anyway, they lived there until October until he was assigned to go to another base at
Boca Chica, FL, to learn how to be an all-weather air controller and would be there for a
month.
By this time, his marriage was 4 or 5 months old and his wife was still in Brooklyn. So
her mother came and stayed with her for the month he was gone.
So when he came back and the ship was to move to Norfolk before heading on to the
Caribbean.
So, on the night before Christmas, he and his wife packed up all of their possessions and
they drove home to Grand Rapids. From there, he would fly out to meet the ship.
Then the ship was going to leave Norfolk, which would be its home base, to an Airbase
on the Atlantic Coast just south of Georgia. So he flew down there, got on the ship and
went down to the Caribbean.
He was down there for 2 months or so.
Since the ship had just been re-commissioned, he and the others went down there to learn
how to run the ship.
The ship would come back to Norfolk around April and his wife came out to live there.
From then he would go out to sea and back, out to sea and back, etc. Either in September
or October 1955, the ship was going out to seas again.
So, they packed everything up in the car again, drove home to Grand Rapids and he
would return and go overseas again.
He was in the Mediterranean until February of the following year.
They did the same thing as they had always done before. Flying the planes, practicing
the intercepting, and other general practicing.
There were a couple of accidents. One time, when one of the pilots was getting ready to
launch, the cables that help bring them to flying speed did not let go of his wheel. He
would go under the ship in front and pop out behind them.
He was alright, but the destroyer behind them tried to pick him up and they cut his
stomach. (19:00)
�
He would practice shooting bombs of using the catapults that normally launch the planes,
to see how far they would go.
The second tour of the Mediterranean he would stop by Rome, Sicily, Athens, and
several other places. He spent Christmas in Naples one year. He got a chance to really
visit Rome. He also got a chance to visit the acropolis while in Athens. He really got
an opportunity to see history.
After seeing all these places, history really comes to life.
Anyway, his time would come to an end. He would finish serving his three years of
active duty.
After they dropped him off, he had to go through a bunch of physical examinations and
he was discharged from active duty, but still had to serve inactive duty.
Post Duty (22:30)
He had graduated thinking he would be going into civil engineering, but instead he
graduated OCS.
When he got out, he had not done any civil engineering for a while, so he went back to
MSU.
His wife was then teaching in another city, but finished up and moved back to Grand
Rapids.
He would join MSU in March to finish his graduate degree and move back to Grand
Rapids as well
They did not have any kids until November 1956.
The Navy kept after him to “improve himself.” So one time when they offered to help
him to improve himself, he sent in his degree and they promoted him. He would be in
inactive duty for 10 years until he was honorably discharged.
Remembering Stories (25:30)
When he stopped at the French Riviera one time, he had gotten the chance to tour the
mountain. As Naval Officers they were not allowed to wear their uniforms ashore, so
they always had civilian clothes on.
He took to this tour in France up in the mountains. They ended up at a perfume factory.
He came out with a headache and his clothes smelled so bad, he almost had to hang them
outside to air out.
When he was in Nice, France, he took a train into Italy, to Venice. He and a couple of
friends stayed in this hotel and toured Venice. He ended up getting a liquor bottle and
glasses as a remembrance. It was an amber color with silver patterns on the outside. He
never used it.
While he was touring Athens, he saw the Acropolis and saw the area where the first
Olympics were held. He also saw the Parthenon.
He also went to Sicily and saw Mount Etna. A neighboring mountain was erupting when
they went by.
They also stopped by Gibraltar. He says you have to know a lot of history of Spain.
There are lots of tunnels and interesting places to visit.
They would also go to the Sargasso Sea, twice.
�
They were supposed to stop in the Azores, but there was an epidemic going on, though he
does not remember what it was exactly.
He also remembers that the Atlantic can be very rough sometimes. One time when they
were coming into NYC for the weekend, they got involved in a hurricane before coming
in. The destroyers of the convoy were told to go their own way to get out of it the best
they could.
Water was coming over the top of the ship and getting into the planes. The planes, which
were tied down for the storm, were so damaged from the salt water that they could not fly
them off, but had to have them lifted off instead.
It was so strong that some of the metal doors were ripped open and the elevator pits were
filled with water.
The officers had very good conditions. He lived in a room with one other officer. Each
had a bed, a desk, and a closet to store stuff. They did not have a door, but a curtain.
Whenever they wanted their shoes shined, they would put them outside the curtain. They
would also have people who would make their bed and take care of the room for them. It
was very nice. (34:20)
They had to wear white shirts and ties and were dressed pretty formally most of the time.
When they ate, they had a ward room where they would eat. You had linen table clothes,
linen napkins, and a silver napkin holder with your name on it. They were served by
stewards and taken care of by them as well.
When they were ready to eat, they would wait for the executive officer to tell them to be
seated and eat.
When you brought guests on, and he brought his wife on a couple of times, you would be
seated at the executive officer’s table. First the executive officer would have him seat his
wife, and then the rest of them could be seated.
You had very good conditions. His wife used to say he was spoiled.
When you went to OCS, one of the classes you had was Naval etiquette. When you
graduated from this school, making sure that you took this course, you would get a
certificate saying that you were now an “Officer and a Gentleman”
The first time he got aboard a ship, they lined up 80 guys that he was to be responsible
for. In front of these guys, there were three petti officers who would help him run these
guys.
Because of the responsibility he had and the experience that he gained, he would help to
run the Kent County Airport Landing Field.
You gain so much knowledge doing this it is like another graduate degree.
He ended up signing off for millions of dollars of stuff. It was really different.
Some life lessons that he learned while in the service was to be honest, to be fair, do
things right and do the best you can always because people’s lives depend on you.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WinerL
Title
A name given to the resource
Winer, Loyd (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
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Winer, Loyd
Description
An account of the resource
Loyd Winer served as a Naval Officer in the Atlantic from 1952-1955. He was assigned first to an escort carrier, and later to the fleet carrier Ticonderoga. He cruised in the Atlantic and Mediterranean, and also had to supervise shore patrol in New York City.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Goodman, Ashlee (Interviewer)
Mabman, Sadie (Interviewer)
Marsman, Samantha (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-05-01
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8a0009678d4e2a1e45a124b1b48a661d.m4v
dd42cdea8bcb38af49f80d5343fa3a76
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4e927ab904ab7ea87e099d830f03e8c4.pdf
f29250bb5944b16791e297b1ccff0f0a
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Bernie Windmiller
Vietnam War; Cold War
28 minutes 31 seconds
*Note: Times in the outline correspond with timecode in interview
(01:51:53) Early Life & Enlisted Service
-Born on July 3, 1932, in Gary, Indiana
-Drafted into the Army in 1954
-Left college after two years and got drafted
-Sent to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, for basic training
-Sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for field radio training
-Learned about use of field radios and Morse code
-Deployed to South Korea
-Spent six (or eight) months at the demilitarized zone
-Part of a small unit of nine or ten men
-Five enlisted men at a small compound and the officers helped the South Koreans
-Officers were attached to the 11th Republic of Korea Division
-Sent to Army headquarters in Daegu and worked the switchboard
-Had 11 women work with him
(01:54:15) Becoming a Chaplain Pt. 1
-Raised in a very religious home
-Active in his church
-Involved with a religious television program in college
-Before he got drafted, he felt he was heading for the ministry
-While in Korea, he only saw a chaplain once every three months
-Thought the Army was short on chaplains
-Didn’t realize it was because his post was so remote
-Felt he was being called to the chaplaincy
-Returned to college and went into the seminary
-Professor in seminary had been a Navy chaplain during World War II
-Held an informal class at night for students interested in the chaplaincy
-Part of the staff specialist corps (no uniform, and a chance to try out being in the Army)
-Graduated from seminary and got into an Army Reserve unit on Southside of Chicago
-Also had a church on the South Side of Chicago
-Sent to basic course for chaplains at Fort Hamilton, New York
-Solidified his decision to become a chaplain
-Petitioned his denomination for endorsement
-Sent to 5th Army Headquarters in Chicago for an interview, and was accepted
�(01:57:00) Stationed at Fort Riley
-Joined them in spring 1966
-Sent to Fort Riley, Kansas
-Attached to the 9th Infantry Division
-Trained with them
(01:57:30) Becoming a Chaplain Pt. 2
-Went to Fuller Theological Seminary
-Inter-denominational seminary
-Prestigious seminary
-Didn’t think he would’ve been accepted into that seminary
-Good experience
(01:58:08) Deployment to Vietnam
-Part of the 3rd Battalion, 47th Infantry Regiment of the 9th Infantry Division at Fort Riley
-Shipped out of America on January 1, 1967
-Sent his wife and children to Ohio around Christmastime
-Returned to Fort Riley and held Christmas services
-Left by ship out of California in January 1967
-Arrived in Vietnam on January 19, 1967
(01:59:42) Arrival in Vietnam & Reassignment to 4th Battalion
-Went to Bearcat Base, the headquarters for the 9th Infantry Division
-Received more combat training
-During the final part of training, the division chaplain approached Bernie
-Told him he’d be reassigned to 4th Battalion
th
-Stayed with 4 Battalion for the rest of his tour in Vietnam
-Army Engineers built a base camp at Dong Tam for the 4th Battalion
(02:01:33) Missions & Combat in Vietnam
-Rotated on and off Navy ships
-Went through the Mekong River Delta to various outposts via armored troop carriers
-Had to contend with 10 – 12 foot tides
-Mostly Viet Cong forces operating in the Mekong Delta
-4th Battalion was tasked with search & destroy missions
-Got into a huge fight with the Viet Cong on June 19, 1967
-Took a lot of casualties
-Wanted to be with his soldiers in the field, regardless of combat
-Only missed one combat operation
-Tended to the wounded and helped gather the dead
-Lost 60 soldiers during his tour in Vietnam
-He was older than most of the men in his unit
-He was 36 years old when he went to Vietnam
-He was a captain, and other captains were in their mid-20s
-Went on combat marches with the troops
-Very close with C Company
-With them on the battle of June 19th
�-Originally supposed to be with A Company
-C Company commander wanted him to stay with C Company, so Bernie stayed
-C Company took 50 percent casualties during the battle
-Attends annual reunions for C Company
(02:07:50) Return to the United States
-Came back to the United States on January 1, 1968
-Landed north of San Francisco
-Flew to Chicago to meet his wife and be with her for a few days
-Went to Ohio to be with his wife and children
-Invited by the Ministerial Association of Wellington, Ohio, to speak about his time in Vietnam
-After his presentation, a couple girls from Oberlin College approached him to talk
-Group of antiwar protesters tried to confront Bernie about Vietnam
-He told them that he went to Vietnam to help soldiers, not fight
(02:12:00) Stationed at Fort Campbell
-Sent to Fort Campbell, Kentucky
-His division chaplain in Vietnam, Charles Meek, was the post chaplain at Fort Campbell
-Stationed there for 1 ½ years
-Worked with an engineer unit
-Made the stockade chaplain
(02:13:23) Stationed in West Germany
-Sent to West Germany
-Attached to the 5th Missile Battalion off the 6th Air Defense Artillery (Nike missiles)
-Operated out of Baumholder, Germany
-Stayed in Germany for three years
-Travelled to missile sites to minister to soldiers
-Taught himself to play guitar and sing hymns
-Drugs were an issue in Germany at the time
-Needed to counsel soldiers with drug addictions
-Given a basement area in an administrative building as a counselling area
-Connected with four soldiers and invited them to dinner at his home
-Formed a band with them
-Missiles were tipped with nuclear warheads
-Needed soldiers to be sober due to the severity of their job
(02:16:50) Further Education Pt. 1
-Returned to the United States in 1973
-Took the advanced course for chaplains from 1973-1974
-Studied for his master’s degree in counselling at Long Island University
-Promoted to major during his time there
(02:17:30) Stationed at Fort Sill
-Sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma
-Made the brigade chaplain for the 212th Field Artillery Brigade
-Wonderful assignment
-Almost retired from the Army while at Fort Sill
�-In a supervisory position and he didn’t enjoy it, just wanted to minister to soldiers
-Another chaplain convinced him to stay in the Army
-Convinced him by saying that supervisory positions are necessary
(02:19:24) Further Education Pt. 2
-Started a doctorate of ministry degree, but was unable to complete it
-Army sent him to Duke University to study world religions
-He enjoyed doing that
< Tape ends before interview ends >
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_WindmillerB2075V
Title
A name given to the resource
Windmiller, Bernie (Interview outline and video), 2016
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-26
Description
An account of the resource
Bernie Windmiller was born in Gary, Indiana, on July 3, 1932. The Army drafted him in 1954 and he received basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, then field radio training at Fort Knox, Kentucky. He was deployed to South Korea where he served on the demilitarized zone and at Daegu. He decided to become a chaplain, and upon completion of seminary, he reentered the Army as a chaplain. His first assignment was at Fort Riley, Kansas, with 3rd Battalion of the 47th Infantry Regiment of the 9th Infantry Division. He was deployed to Vietnam in January 1967 and was originally stationed at Bearcat Base. Shortly after arriving, he was reassigned to 4th Battalion. During his time in Vietnam, he operated in the Mekong River Delta and went on combat missions with the troops. He returned to the United States in January 1968, and was stationed at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. He then served in West Germany for three years with the 5th Missile Battalion of the 6th Air Defense Artillery (Nike nuclear missiles). He returned to the United States in 1973 and took the advanced course of chaplains, then got his master's degree at Long Island University. He served at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, with the 212th Artillery Brigade then went to Duke University.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Windmiller, Bernie
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Keizer, Herman Jr. (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/db72f38e22a52a749468f370bc8d5610.mp4
d78179edddf9096469064e45c7972317
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/65391226d6626c0cd68b015c94749205.pdf
af7be1e7ce1f5148e3e6cc987b1cb2d0
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Charles Windisch
(30:55)
(00:10) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
Charles grew up in Allegan County, in Gibson, Michigan
His father was a gardener and his mother was a housekeeper. Neither of them lost their
jobs during the depression
He grew up in Holland, Michigan during the 30s and it was rough
He was finished with school by the time that Pearl Harbor was attacked
He had went to school through sixth grade and then began working on the coal docks
(1:50) The National Guard
•
•
•
•
•
He was already in the National Guard when Pearl Harbor was attacked
He had joined the National Guard when he was only sixteen years old
He had been too young for the National Guard to ship him overseas, so he then joined the
Navy
He had been in the National Guard for 1.5 years and had trained in Wisconsin
The other men he had trained within the National Guard were shipped out to New Guinea
(3:30) Naval Enlistment
•
•
•
•
He trained in Newport, Rhode Island for only 7 days
Charles and other men left on the USS Nashville for Europe and they continued their
training aboard the ship
Charles had specifically joined the Navy because he did not want to sleep in a foxhole
Most of the on the ship were fairly new to the environment
(6:00) The Ship
•
•
•
They left in December and were out at sea for nine months
They traveled to Hawaii though the Panama Canal
Charles spent most of his time on the ship in the carpenter shop
(7:30) The Raid on Japan
•
•
•
•
They were 500 miles from Japan when they finally were told the details of their mission
He saw all the planes take off from the air-craft carrier
They went back to Hawaii afterwards
Charles traveled through the Pacific to Guam, the Philippines, Okinawa, and Iwo Jima
(9:40) Guam
�•
•
•
Their ship was involved in naval battles
There was a major battle at night that was very scary; they were losing the fight at first,
but they made their way out of it
They had been hit by heavy Japanese shells
(11:10) Okinawa
•
•
•
There were kamikazes dropping all around them
Lots of smoke was put out by destroyers so Kamikazes could not see them
The smoke worked well because you could not even see your hand in front of your face
(12:15) Ship Life
•
•
•
The men had to take care of the water-tight doors and control the pumps
There was lots of work to keep them busy
They were shot at many times and took lots of battle damage
(14:50) Making Alcohol
•
•
•
•
•
The men made their own drinks on the ship and then a huge storm hit when they were all
drunk
The ship officers found out who had made the alcohol
The men were transferred and had to go to Frog-man school
They went to the Philippines and planted TNT along the beach to keep the Japanese off
the beach
He was sitting on the beach hiding under grass when the Japanese invaded
(19:40) Iwo Jima
•
•
They had finished with their Frog-man work
Charles was here while the invasion occurred and they were helping fight kamikazes
(21:35) Philippines Kamikazes
•
•
The back of their ship was hit and some of the men died
It took two months for the ship to be fixed
(22:50) Okinawa
•
The people here were jumping off cliffs
(23:40) The End of the War
•
•
•
•
They went from Pearl Harbor to San Francisco to be released
They dropped the ship off at a ship yard to be repaired
Charles ended up in Norfolk, Virginia and was released
He headed straight home on a train and everyone was happy and drinking
�(26:50) After the Service
•
•
Charles went back to working for the coal docks
He said that being in the service gave him a lot of experience
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WindischC
Title
A name given to the resource
Windisch, Charles (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Windisch, Charles
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Windisch grew up in Holland, Michigan during the depression. Although times were rough, his parents were both able to hold on to their jobs during the depression. Charles went to school through the sixth grade and joined the National Guard when he was only sixteen. He eventually enlisted in the Navy and traveled through the Pacific to islands such as Hawaii, Guam, and Okinawa. He served between 1941 and 1946 primarily on the USS Nashville, but also did a stint as a demolitions frogman.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Navy
United States--National Guard
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-06-29
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/496fd374585cb081a7100dc471f1ca53.m4v
fb17102d2e60166d6dad92d3ccfe0213
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/948a3f70078c644ee3e79bd7799000fe.pdf
6cb5490a3e041c10b45c582da6a10336
PDF Text
Text
Interview Notes
Interview Length (47:55)
Forrest Winchester
US Navy
Pre-Enlistment
Born in Kent County in 1925 (0:30)
Father was a tinsmith (0:45)
Was able to keep his job during the Great Depression (1:30)
Finished high school in 1943 (2:00)
Heard about Pearl Harbor while he was at his grandparents' house (2:15)
Thought he would be a part of the war (3:00)
Drafted straight from high school (3:05)
Training
Reported to Detroit, Michigan (3:30)
Went to the Navy because his cousin liked it (4:00)
Went to Great Lakes, Illinois, for basic training (4:45)
Adjusted as well as possible to training (5:05)
Didn’t do anything vigorous because of poor weather (6:00)
Took tests to determine what specialty (7:15)
Went to radio technician’s school in Gulfport, Alabama (7:30)
Never ridden a train before he went to Gulfport (7:45)
Lived in Quonset huts in AL (8:40)
Specifically trained to repair radios and radar (9:00)
Had no prior experience to this (9:10)
Stayed there for several months (9:40)
Went off base several times (10:00)
Was sent back to Great Lakes, then to San Francisco (11:40)
Boarded a troop ship, then headed out to Hawaii (11:50)
Was on the Lurline, a luxury passenger ship (12:00)
Came down with scarlet fever on the voyage (12:30)
Took 5 days to get to Hawaii (12:45)
Was in sick bay on the base for 2 weeks (13:20)
Service overseas
Took liberty in Honolulu once out of the hospital (14:15)
Was put on a British carrier afterwards, ferrying planes to the South Pacific (14:30)
Offloaded on the island of Manus, a supply island (15:40)
Worked there for several months, moving supplies on to ships (16:55)
Mainly went from the barracks to work (16:15)
USS Formoe
After, he was assigned to the USS Formoe in the engine room (17:20)
Was seasick for 3 days, but was not relieved of his work load (17:45)
�Read gauges and other basic things (17:50)
Formoe had been in the Atlantic, now was in the Pacific (18:10)
Ship had convoy duty between the Philippines to Okinawa (18:50)
Most danger came from submarines and floating mines (19:50)
Floating mines were taken care of by a rifle crew (20:45)
Chased several submarines, but never saw one surface (21:20)
Took close to 12 convoys across (22:30)
Had to take some convoys to Formosa, but terrible storms came up (23:00)
Came close to flipping, but never did (24:00)
Had worked his way up to the radio shack by that time (24:30)
Was great need for repair work (24:50)
Radio shack was a portion of the bridge (25:40)
Had a communications officer that kept tabs on all the personnel working in the radio (26:20)
Mostly slept when he was not on duty (27:20)
Had his own bunk, but had to share a rack with 2 other guys (27:45)
Showed movies only when in port, when they could put up a screen (28:20)
Had tables that would fold down in bad weather, only got soup then (28:50)
Food got them by, but wasn’t anything great (29:10)
Spent several weeks in each convoy (29:40)
East Asia
When they were in port in Okinawa, they would make smoke to disguise the ships from Japanese
air raids (30:40)
Saw some of the destruction from the harbor (32:00)
Offloaded many Australian troops in Tarakan, an island off of Borneo (32:45)
Were the artillery for those troops invading the island (33:40)
Had quite a few ships there (34:10)
Australians were pretty gung-ho veterans (35:00)
Stayed there several weeks, but never went ashore (35:10)
War ended on his way back to the Philippines (35:30)
Spent a week in Tokyo after the war, and could see the damage from the fire bombing (37:00)
Went ashore on liberty, and the Japanese were not friendly (37:30)
Wore a flag embroidered with the ship and his name on the back lining of his jacket (39:30)
Spent a while in Shanghai, everything was in good shape (40:00)
Also spent time in Hong Kong (41:00)
Once finished in Tokyo, he headed back (41:45)
Stopped at Midway Island, navigator stayed up all night to make sure they didn’t miss it (41:50)
Went to Hawaii next, then to San Francisco (42:35)
Should’ve been discharged at Great Lakes, but was discharged in San Francisco (42:45)
Post-service
Met some Air Force pilots who had just bought a plane and were flying from San Francisco to
Chicago (43:15)
Flew home with about 12 other guys (43:30)
Made it all in one trip, didn’t have to stop to refuel (44:10)
Took a train home to Grand Rapids (44:20)
Parents didn’t know when he was coming home, surprised them at the door (44:50)
�Applied to MSU and used the GI Bill (45:45)
Graduated with a degree in Chemical Engineering and went into the industry (45:50)
Worked for Kelvinator doing quality control, then moved on to consulting (46:15)
Retired twice, kept going back (47:20)
Military was a good interruption in life, taught him many things (47:45)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
WinchesterF
Title
A name given to the resource
Winchester, Forrest (Interview outline and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Winchester, Forrest
Description
An account of the resource
Forrest Winchester was born in Kent County in 1925 and was drafted into World War II from high school. Forrest joined the Navy because his cousin enjoyed it, and left basic training as a radio repairman. He served on several ships in the Pacific, and during and after the war sailed to Borneo, Okinawa, China and Japan.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-03-31
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5d34d01fef9a10b207ecf4186844b22.m4v
06074182fbd010251bca845bee2900e1
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e66a8a8003a1fe2ed2fe2c145455acf9.pdf
c58899f5c74c20be2ee4a2105142f4fc
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Paul Wilt
Cold War-Early 1960s
26 minutes 26 seconds
(00:00:07) Early Life
-Born in Fairmont, West Virginia on June 30, 1942
-Had a brother who is now deceased
-Father worked and mother stayed at home
-Played football, baseball, and wrestled when he was in high school
(00:00:56) Enlisting in the Marines
-Father had fought in World War II and brother also served in the military
-Decided to enlist in the Marines in 1960
-Felt he had an obligation to serve his country
-Considered going to college, but wasn't ready
-Felt Marines were the best branch with the best training
-Well prepared for combat
(00:01:56) Basic Training
-Leaving for basic training was emotional because he wouldn't see his family for a while
-First few weeks of basic training were tough
-Learned that he had a responsibility to himself and to the Marine Corps
-Days started at 5 a.m.
-Had 10-15 minutes to get dressed and get in formation
-Ate breakfast, make bed, and get ready for drills and maneuvers
-Days ended at 10 p.m.
-Wakened by drill sergeants beating on something to wake up him and the other recruits
-Remembers being forced to hold his M1 Garand rifle (~9 pounds) straight out from his body
-Drill sergeants wanted to see how long the recruits could hold a rifle like that
-Did push ups, chin ups, went on runs, and ran on obstacle courses
-At first, the physical training was difficult, but he adjusted after a while
-Received weapons training
-Went on the rifle range and fired various weapons
-Mostly the M1 Garand rifle, but also machine guns
-Learned how to use hand grenades
-Food was average during basic training, not too bad for the military
(00:06:44) Assignments in the United States
-Stationed at Marine Naval Air Station Norfolk, Virginia
-Stood at a guard post, and allowed traffic in and out of the base
-Sent to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina in 1962 for Infantry Training
-Ran maneuvers in combat situations and learned how to react in various combat situations
(00:08:10) Cuban Missile Crisis Pt. 1
-During the Cuban Missile Crisis he and the other Marines at Camp Lejeune boarded planes
-Flown to a destination without knowing what the final destination was
-Carried a 45 pound pack
-Finally landed at a warm location
-Given ammunition and grenades
�-Found out that night that they were in Cuba at Guantanamo Bay
-Saw tanks and demolition equipment
-There were 200,000 Cubans ready to fight if war started
-Expected 100,000 of those Cubans would stand and fight if challenged
-Only two battalions of Marines against 100,000 enemy soldiers
-Note: Two battalions is approximately 2,000 Marines
-Scared, and didn't know what to expect
-Knew they were outnumbered by the Cubans
-Didn't know there were 25,000 Marines offshore ready to invade, supported by an armada of ships
-Didn't know if the United States was going to war in Cuba, and thus a nuclear war with the USSR
(00�:12:20) Friendships
-Formed friendships in the Marines
-Best friend in the Marines was from California
-Good man
-Liked to party
-Spent a lot of time together, got in trouble together, and had a lot of fun together
(00:13:15) Contact with Family
-Adjusted to not seeing his family every day
-Knew it was part of growing up regardless of military service
-Didn't think about not seeing them because he had other things on his mind
-Just hoped he would see them again
(00:13:56) Downtime
-Not much downtime while in the Marines during the Cuban Missile Crisis
-Placed on temporary duty in 1963
-Golfed, went to clubs, and took liberty in the United States
-Visited Wilmington and Raleigh, North Carolina while at Camp Lejeune
-Got weekends off sometimes
-Visited Baltimore, Maryland; Washington D.C.; and South Carolina
(00:15:12) Cuban Missile Crisis Pt. 2
-Didn't leave Cuba until December 1962
-Didn't find out why they were in Cuba until November 1962 (a month after the Crisis)
-Cubans had turned off the water to the American territory at Guantanamo Bay
-Found out that there nuclear weapons from the Soviet Union in Cuba
-Didn't find out how close the U.S. and U.S.S.R. were to war until years later
-Glad to be back in the United States after the Cuban Missile Crisis
-Didn't know if he would have made it home
-Remembers carrying multiple bandoliers and at least a dozen grenades
-Didn't want to run out of ammunition if he went into combat
(00:18:33) End of Service
-Considered making a career out of the Marines, but he had a wife and child
-Didn't want to make them move around with him
-Kept in touch with California friend from Marines after he got discharged
(00:19:42) Reflections on Service
-Lives in a great country
-Too many people don't appreciate the freedoms they have
-Lost a lot of friends in the Vietnam War
-Military protects citizens' rights to protest and criticize the country
-Doesn't feel that the military is given enough credit
-Politicians need to listen to military leadership
�-He would gladly serve again if necessary
-Feels people aren't willing to fight for their freedoms
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_WiltP1849V
Title
A name given to the resource
Wilt, Paul L (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-12
Description
An account of the resource
Paul Wilt was born in West Virginia on June 30, 1942. He enlisted in the Marines in 1960 and after basic training received assignments in the United States. He was stationed at Marine Naval Air Station Norfolk, Virginia carrying out guard duties, and received infantry training at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. He also went on temporary duty to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Wilt, Paul L.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Wilt, Alexander (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf