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Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War:
Interviewee’s Name: Susan Strum
Length of Interview: 1:04:25
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman
Interviewer: This interview is a co-production of WKTV Voices, and Grand Valley State
University Veterans History Project, and the Silversides Museum in Muskegon, Michigan
and we are in fact on the campus of the Silversides Museum today conducting this
interview. We’re talking today with Susan Strum of Muskegon, Michigan, so Sue, why
don’t you start off with some background and to begin with: where and when were you
born?
Okay, I was born in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada in 1951 to a Canadian father and my mother
was a US citizen. She was at that point in her late 20’s and for those times was considered a
spinster, so she and her mother were traveling by train around Canada visiting various relatives
to see if anybody knew, you know, anybody who might be eligible. And my parents actually met
at a tea leaf reading. He had taken his mother and her friends, and she had taken her mother and
her cousin, and you know they’re both apparently “I’m only here because I brought them” and,
you know, the rest is, as they say, history. They came back and forth, mom was, you know, a
school teacher in Michigan and he was an engineering student working for the phone company in
Edmonton, and after back and forth for a few years they ended up getting married in Muskegon.
Moved back to Edmonton where mom said goodbye to all of her friends and her bridge club that
she’d been in from high school, and off she went 2,000 miles away. Well, in 1953 we ended up
moving to Owosso, Michigan with the phone company. Edmonton was, at that time, one of the
largest cities in North America with the dial telephone system outside New York City, so
everyone who was looking at putting in dial telephone systems was, you know, stealing people
from New York and Edmonton to various places and with mom having family, especially elderly
parents in Michigan, that was the best we could do and by 1955 we were in Muskegon, mom was
back on her bridge club, I started first grade in North Muskegon elementary school and I
graduated from there in 1969.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, as you’re kinda going through high school things in this country
are getting kinda interesting.
�That puts it mildly!
Interviewer: You’ve had a civil rights movement, you’ve got the counter-culture thing,
you’ve got the war, a lot of this stuff and all the craziness in ‘68. How much of that were
you paying attention to? (3:12)
Paid a fair amount of attention to it, but it was not… didn’t really seem to affect us, North
Muskegon had at that point and probably still does a reputation of to sending 99% of its students
on to college, so, you know, we weren’t terribly—the guys weren’t terribly worried about the
draft. We followed it, had a school teacher in 7th grade who, you know, to dismay of 97% of the
class said we had to watch the nightly news and write reports on it, and my cousin and I are
going, “We’re gonna get credit for what we do any how?” Our parents, we always watched the
news so this was like, this is a bonus, so. You know, we were aware of it but, you know, it
really—you know, North Muskegon to this day only has 3-4,00 people and it’s a mostly
doctor/lawyer/indian chief zone. It was out there, we ready about it, we knew people who went.
By that point we actually also knew someone who had died, so you know there was a gold star
family in North Muskegon which, thankfully I believe is still one of the only gold star families.
But, no, just really… we knew it was there, but…
Interviewer: Yeah, and since you were a woman and not subject to the draft anyway.
Right.
Interviewer: It would make less of a difference. Okay, so what do you do after you finish
high school?
I enrolled in Muskegon Community College and discovered that I really didn’t have the…
attention span needed to, [you know, pay attention.] I had more fun playing poker with some of
the veterans and active in student government, I was the treasurer of student government the
second year I was there, and so as a result my grades didn’t quite meet muster. The employment,
you know, rate in Michigan was absolutely abysmal, there was very little opportunity and so I
said, “I need to do something and right now college is not it.” So I started looking at the military,
looked at all four branches, pretty well immediately crossed out the Army and Marine Corps as
they only offered a two-year opportunity and with the two-year opportunity you get very little in
the way of training.
Interviewer: Okay, so they weren’t offering longer—cause if men enlisted they could enlist
for longer hitches, but that wasn’t being offered to you?
�I don’t know whether they, you know, the Marines and the Army basically were pretty much
two-year, you know, active duty and then you probably—especially the men had, you know,
others who were a six-year commitment, you know, because of the draft. But the Air Force and
Navy… Navy required 3 years, Air Force four years but offered far more, you know, opportunity
and I ended up, you know, joining the Navy, you know, because at three years but, you know, in
a clear twist of fate I ended up extending to go to school and ended up spending just about four
years in the Navy, so. You know, it really didn’t, you know, make that much of a difference in
the long run.
Interviewer: All right. Now at the point when you were enlisting, now what year was this?
(6:36)
1971.
Interviewer: Okay, and what was your citizenship status then?
At that point I had dual-citizenship because my father being Canadian, having been a Canadian
citizen, born in Canada. My mother a US citizen, so for years both countries recognized, you
know, our citizenship either one depending on where we were and we just, you know, had
friends and family in both places. We just went back and forth across the border, you know, and
it wasn’t until my enlistment, you know, paperwork was fairly well underway and we were
starting to discuss departure dates that the recruiter was brought up short with the realization that
I needed to be a US citizen, but having been in this country since I was 3 it wasn’t any real big
deal.
Interviewer: But having dual citizenship, that wasn’t accepted?
Was not acceptable for women. Men could join and use their time in service to become a citizen,
but they said, “You’ve lived here 17 out of 20 years, you know, what are the chances of you
going back to Canada?” which turned out to be somewhat ironic later on but because I’d been
here as long it was a fairly simple process. I had ended up with a private meeting with a federal
judge in Grand Rapids who swore me in and I was able to make the original, you know, deadline
we had anticipated for enlistment.
Interviewer: All right. So, where did you go then for your training?
Everyone from, you know, Michigan is processed then and I assume now through Detroit, so,
you know, they sent us over in buses to Detroit where we spent the night, we were sworn in the
next morning, given our orders and sent weekly by plane to Washington, D.C. and then a Navy
bus picked us up and took us to Brainbridge, Maryland.
�Interviewer: All right. Now, as you’re going through this processing are men and women
together? Or do they separate women out at some point?
As soon as we got on the plane we were separate. Women’s training back then was completely
separate from men, we saw men in the mess hall and during the church service on Sunday, we
were not allowed to talk to them, they were not allowed to talk to us. We were told to consider
men as trees and everyone knows how much in love with, you know, trees women are so, you
know…
Interviewer: Okay. So, back when you were processing in Detroit, for instance, or that kind
of thing.
We were all just, you know, lined up together and then they just, you know, parceled us out to
the various, you know, places. You know, lot of the guys probably got back on buses and went to
Great Lakes or, you know, potentially could have gone to Orlando which was very real for men
at that point, I believe.
Interviewer: Yeah. And then San Diego otherwise, probably.
Yes, that’s right.
Interviewer: But they’re farther west. Okay. But in your case, okay, Bainbridge, Maryland.
Where in Maryland is that? (9:39)
It is in the middle of nowhere. It is still apparently in the middle of nowhere. I’ve had by chance
recently connected with a girl who actually was into a Facebook group for former WAVES,
connected with a women who had actually been in my company and she has been back to
Bainbridge in a couple of occasions, that she lives in the area and she says it’s still as nowhere as
it was then.
Interviewer: As a naval base is it actually on Chesapeake Bay somewhere, or is it inland?
It doesn’t exist as the base anymore. It has not for many years. It was near Havre de Grace and
someplace else, but you know, we were there we had no opportunity really to, you know, if we
went someplace else they took us in a bus and it really didn’t matter cause we weren’t going on
our own.
Interviewer: Yeah, but that’s sort of the upper end of Chesapeake Bay and there’s not
really that much there.
�No, the closest city of any size is Lancaster, Pennsylvania where they took us during one of the
weeks where, you know, to pick up new things that we needed still for our, you know, required
uniform. You know, underwear, you know slips, etc. that we hadn’t brought with us or they just
didn’t have, you know, available on base.
Interviewer: Alright. Describe basically the training process itself: when you get there what
happens to you? (11:03)
Well, it was pretty strange because we apparently got there on Halloween. We got there late,
everyone else had gone to bed, you know, luggage did not come with us it disappeared some
place, arrived a week or so later so we wore the same clothes for a week. Never did wear that
outfit again, and I had loved it so much before. But, you know, we’re just sitting on the stairs in
the main barracks known as Hunter Hall while they sorted us out and figured where we were
supposed to go since we were all assigned to, you know, the few of us that were there I don’t
remember how many of us there were, were assigned to various companies and they gave us a
sucker. Well, this is pretty strange, you know… well little did I know that was one of the last
sweets I was going to see for several weeks. It ended up making a rather larger impression on me
than I, you know, simple little lollipop with a little paper hoop in it would do in any other
circumstance, but eventually got us sorted out and… the main barracks for women, as I said, was
called Hunter Hall and it held, I believe, 8 companies of women. Since they were getting a—we
didn’t know this but, you know, in highsight, you know, they were getting ready to transfer the
women’s training to Orlando, which they did in July of 1972 and so knowing there would be
some lag time they kind of multiplied the number of companies going through ahead of time and
put two companies in a barracks that had not been used probably since World War II. It was
indeed a World War II barracks that was two floors, it was condemned while we were living in
it, when the company upstairs moved out we thought we might, you know, have won a lottery
and got to use their bathrooms and laundry and we were told it wasn’t safe to go up there and if
there was a fire to don’t worry about the exits, try and, you know, go out the windows. Just
remember to go out the windows on the street side because it was built on a ravine and there was
a two story drop on the other side. Fortunately we never had that, but you know, it was winter
and it was a cold winter for Maryland and the furnace kept going out, the water heater kept going
out and, you know, they issued you one blanket. It was a little gray wool blanket and it was your
fire blanket you were supposed to use in case of fire, but it had to be folded just so. Well, when
there’s no heat, you know, there was like do I unfold this thing? It’s not worth the hassle. Our
company commander, to her credit, did try to get us additional blankets so we could keep that
one in its pristine shape, but she was unsuccessful so we spent a great many nights sleeping in
our winter, you know, what they called great coats which is a wool overcoat, over our pajamas
just to try and, you know, curled up trying to stay warm. You know, while the people in Hunter
�Hall had, you know, lots of, you know, hot water and, you know, heat and all kinds of things, so.
We were special, we were tough.
Interviewer: Alright.
And we did get some special, you know, considerations because of it.
Interviewer: So basically the group that you came in with, did you all get put into that new
barracks or were you split up? (14:42)
No, we all got split up. I’m not sure that there was anyone besides me, you know, that went into,
you know, that company.
Interviewer: So you were just lucky.
Yes.
Interviewer: Alright.
Story of my life.
Interviewer: So, what does the actual training consist of?
Training at that time was mostly, you know, paperwork learning, you know, the various ranks,
how to march. It wasn’t a whole lot of physical training because at that point most of the
assignments available for women were office related with the exception of corpsmen or dental
techs, although literally daily new positions were coming open.
Interviewer: So they were starting to—
We were learning about the various professions and a great deal of that was taken doing aptitude
testing, you know, what we were capable of and then therefore what jobs we could be assigned,
you know, once we, you know, graduated.
Interviewer: Cause I guess this wasn’t when the—of course over the course of the 70s they
open up a lot of opportunities for women in the military, so was this kind of the beginning
end of that, when more things would be coming potentially available?
Very much so. Very much so. When I, you know, I qualified for a number of, you know,
categories that, you know, many women were not eligible for and some that were but did not
�have any vacancies at that time. So they said, “You know, we’re just going to put you in the next
most qualified,” you know, “Training opportunity there is, but keep an eye open we’re gonna
note it in your file that when and if one of these other opportunities comes open, you know, we
encourage you to apply for it. Cause chances are if there’s an opening you’ll get it. Especially
because by that point you will have some prior service.” So I ended up as a result being trained
as a dispersing clerk, I went to a training center in San Diego and trained there for… again,
approximately 10 weeks. But at that point, you know, once we finished basic training, you know,
men had ceased to become trees and they were back to being human beings again and we had
classes with guys, we could talk to them on a regular basis, we could, you know, associate with
them.
Interviewer: Okay. I’m just gonna back up into the Bainbridge part of things for a little
bit.
Sure.
Interviewer: What kind of women were in your company, what were their backgrounds
or…? (17:12)
We had everything from, cause you had to be 18, so we had, you know, women who were 18 on
up to, you know, some were in their mid-20s and just from, you know, all various backgrounds.
The girl who actually had the bunk below me was salvation army and she brought her bugle, and
so once they found out about that the unit who was on night watch would come in about 5
minutes early and wake her up—though they always seemed to wake me up instead! It’s like,
“No, lower bunk!” And she would get up and she would blow revelry. Well it gave me a little bit
of—it, you know, gave those people in our little cubicle a bit of a heads up so we could, you
know, hit the ground, you know, we were running.
Interviewer: And when they do that was there a sort of set of things everybody sort of has
to do XYZ within a certain number of minutes, so you had the advanced warning in
waking up, that was helpful?
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay. All right, and what sort of people were training you?
Oh, we had the old bus, it was all women, first class petty officers of various gradings. My
company commander was the aviation store keeper, I don’t remember the others but they were
always first, occasionally second class petty officer in training, but usually first class or chief
petty officers and of course then the officers commanding, but again it was all female.
�Interviewer: Okay. And how did they treat you?
They treated us very well except for the food. The food was absolutely horrible and almost
everybody got food poisoning and instead of worrying about gaining weight pretty much
everybody lost weight, a lot of weight.
Interviewer: So much for the reputation of the Navy having better food.
Oh they had much better food other places, they just didn’t have it in Bainbridge.
Interviewer: Alright, And so how long did you spend in Bainbridge?
It was approximately 10 weeks.
Interviewer: And then from there you went out to San Diego?
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay. And what did the training there consist of? (19:14)
Training there consisted of primarily using—how to calculate payroll, how to use, you know, a
calculator. Some of them they had electronic calculators, some of them were behemoth
mechanical monsters that had probably been in use since war two. Some of us distinctly used our
heads to figure it out until we got caught and said, “Oh, you have to use the machines.” So it was
just kind of a repetition, this is what you do, you know, if they go on leave; this is how you
process the, you know, various scenarios of pay, of leave time, sick time, if they get transferred
this is what you have to do, etc.
Interviewer: Okay. And how long did you spend training there?
That was, again approximately I think it was, I said about 10 weeks.
Interviewer: Okay. And were there men in these classes now?
Yeah, oh yes. Yeah. The majority were men.
Interviewer: And what kind of dynamic was there between the men and the women in a
class like that?
�Mostly, you know, helping and sharing. We’re all in this boat, we’re all in—pretty much for the
most part—all need to do it. So it was just, if you help me I’ll help you because everybody had
their own strengths and weaknesses and yeah, we were all in this together to get our company,
you know, through to graduation.
Interviewer: All right. And then did you get to go off base in San Diego?
We did, mostly, you know, we did some exploring, you know, Balboa Park. You know, the
beach. Biggest thing was there was Disney, you know, buses that would run up there, you know,
especially on weekends and back then they had the old e-ticket type things. So you bought, you
know, you got your entry sheet along with a whole bunch of coupons and, you know, what you
didn’t use you brought back, you know, it’s kind of put in a pile and then so somebody else
would come and they’d take this group of coupons with them, and they’d have to buy the entry
in it but then, you know, you would just use and then you bring it back and just, you know, it
went on until some poor sucker when they went to the general admission was stuck with a whole
bunch of coupons that didn’t work, but uh… That was, you know, the big thing because, you
know, we were from all over the country most of us had never been to California, you know.
We’d come out, especially those of us coming out of Bainbridge where it was miserable cold and
icy and, you know, being in the warmth in San Diego in February and it was really pretty
wonderful.
Interviewer: Alright. Now once you complete that course what do they do with you?
Well, if you graduated they shipped you out. It seemed like everybody who graduated got
transferred someplace else and those who failed got to stay in California. But nobody was willing
to intentionally fail, and we were all mostly new to this stuff and just, you know, but ended up
going from there to a station in Charleston, South Carolina. Which really was a wonderful place
but, you know, it wasn’t San Diego by any stretch of the imagination and there were, you know,
probably oh a half-dozen, dozen of us who all [were] from various training who met in San
Diego all ended up in Charleston and we used to get together in the Enlisted Club, you know. I
think we wore out the jukebox playing California Dreaming by the The Mamas & The Papas and
we’d just sit there and play pool and, you know, sob that we weren’t still where it was nice and
wonderful and warm, you know. Yes, we were still with someplace where it was gorgeous with
plantations and, you know, wonderful things but, you know, it just, you know… for kids, most of
us in our, you know, late teens and early twenties, you know, it just didn’t have the things that,
you know, San Diego’s surf culture, you know, seemed to offer.
Interviewer: Alright. So what was your actual job? (23:19)
�My job there was handling payroll, I started out handling payrolls for submarines in the main
office which actually was stationed off base. There was a fairly large facility and we had, as I
said, submarines. Back then the submarine stations in Charleston were some of the early nuclear
subs and they had what we call blue and gold crew; so you’d have a crew that was out at sea for
6 months, crew in training on land for 6 months, and then this, you know, the sub would come in,
get refitted, the other crew would take off. And it did that for several months and then I got
transferred, promoted, I’m not quite sure exactly what but to a small office on base where I
handled payroll for minesweepers, and they pretty much stayed put the entire time. They thought
they were pretty lucky and for the most part they were, although, you know, our office there was
a one experimental cement minesweeper which was more just outside our office. Which meant
we had very little daylight, you know, and the minute the sun went over, you know, noon it went
behind this enormous cement thing and we were in the shade all the time and, you know, of
course the Vietnam War is winding down. Things were looking up, we’ve managed to miss out
on everything. Little did they know, little did we know, the orders came through to send all the
east coast minesweepers to Haiphong Harbor to clean out the mines in North, you know,
Vietnam.
Interviewer: Yeah, it’s a part of the peace settlement or whatever.
Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And so their leisurely, you know, tours of duty came to a fairly abrupt end for reasons that, to
this day and this happened in 1973, and I still don’t know why this many years later filling out
the paperwork required somebody with a security clearance. I’m the only one in the office with
the security clearance. I’m a naturalized citizen and the only girl in the office and I’m the only
one with the security clearance, so I fill out all this paperwork. Well, the Navy, and I’m
assuming the other branches had similar, had a five digit code, you know, that was attached to
the name of whatever place you were going to be or, you know, if you were in transit there was a
separate code for these. Well, there was no code for enemy territory, so that part of the
paperwork all had to be left blank. So I fill the stuff out, well, to back up slightly: while I’m
stationed down there the rating aerographer makes, which is weather observer forecasters, which
they had originally hoped that I would be able to become, opened up. So, following orders from
previous I applied for it and was accepted, you know, to even become an aerographer's mate. But
it meant an automatic change from a seaman rating to an airman rating, but I still kept my rank as
a dispersing clerk. So instead of being a DKSN I was a DKAN which does not exist, except on
me. So, you know, we get all this paperwork done, Lieutenant Commander looks it over and
everything’s fine, we send it off, sometime later I don’t remember exactly when the phone rings,
he picks it up, next thing I know, “Susan, there’s an admiral so-and-so from Washington wanting
�to talk to you.” And I’m like, “I don’t know any admiral so-as-do, I don’t know any admirals at
all.” “Well he asked for you.” So I go up there, I’m literally standing at attention next to
Lieutenant Commander’s office which is where the phone was and he, you know, this man who
says he’s admiral we have no way of verifying is reading me out for this horrible job I had done
at this paperwork and this fictitious, you know, signature and I’m going “What?” so I had
explained to him that I was in the process of transferring between being a dispersing clerk and an
aerographer’s mate and the change in rank had come through before the change in rating and I
was told I would still wear my dispersing clerk emblems as a dispersing clerk until my orders
were cut and I left Charleston to go for further training, at which time that I would just simply
become an airman. He bought that, but then he’s still fussing about the paperwork and there’s no
codes. I don’t know who this person is, you know, I’ve got a security clearance which I’m not
about to divulge, my lieutenant commander is staring at me and so I’m trying to think of way to
hint to this gentleman how he can come up with the answer himself, and I realized from being a
fairly neurotic newspaper reader that the biggest thing in all the papers lately had been, you
know, emptying Haiphong Harbor of mines and so, you know, I just finally, you know, “Do you
happen to have today’s newspaper handy? Please humor me a minute, would you please look.
Tell me what the headlines are?” Well the headlines were “The Removal of Mines from
Haiphong Harbor” and the lightbulb went off, and he immediately became very apologetic, you
know, and said that the paperwork was great and he wished me, you know, the best wishes on
my future endeavors and hung up and I’m standing there shaking like a leaf. And my Lieutenant
Commander looked at us like, “You look like you need a drink.” and I said, “I think I need two.”
Interviewer: So basically, the other people in your office didn’t know what the assignment
was going to be, or you didn’t know whether they knew it or not? (30:01)
I don’t think they did.
Interviewer: Okay.
I’m not sure. Part of it was a—there’s somewhat of a—I was, you know, again I was the only girl
in the office. We had, most of the rest of the office were Filipino, for some reason becoming a
dispersing clerk was one of the easiest ratings for them to get into and for the most part they all
seemed to excel at it. But there was still a bit of a language barrier and for reasons that I can only
guess our first class petty officer, who I would have thought would have been… it was a black
gentleman, who for whatever reason could not get a clearance. So that left me and Lieutenant
Commander, and the Lieutenant Commander’s not gonna do the paperwork.
Interviewer: But in the meantime I guess, did you have anybody else hearing you talk
except the Lieutenant Commander?
�Oh yes, no, the whole office could hear.
Interviewer: Okay, so you couldn’t just blab these things in front of that audience.
No, because, you know, plus I didn’t know him and this man says he’s an admiral but I don’t
know that it isn’t somebody trying to test me to see whether I’m divulging this information or
not. You know, so it was.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay. And the initial stuff that he was fussing about, that was because
you had listed your new creative rank?
Yeah, I had signed it as a DKAN, you know, rather than a DKSN, you know, this part of the
paperwork on where they would be going to was blank.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay.
So it was just kind of a multitude of, you know, compounding errors.
Interviewer: Now, did the minesweepers leave before you did?
Oh yes, they left, yeah. They were leaving as I was processing their paperwork.
Interviewer: Alright. And did the cement minesweeper go away? (31:58)
It did! We actually, I managed to see a little bit of sunshine before I departed.
Interviewer: Alright, now what… one of the things about Charleston, you know, you’re in
the south and it’s now made it into the 70’s but there are aspects of segregation,
discrimination that kind of last a long time. Did you notice any racial issues at all?
No, not at all, again we basically associated with, you know, other people, you know, we worked
with and the women’s barracks were actually right next to the Naval hospital. They had actually
been women's officer quarters up until sometime, I don’t know where they, you know, I
mentioned they probably ended up giving them an allowance to, you know, have housing off
base so they then turned it over to enlisted and we only used, you know, a small portion of the
building but, you know, it was for enlisted persons, you know, it was, you know, it was kind of
heaven. You know, if you’ve gone from sharing with 70 women in basic training to, you know, 4
women while you’re in a school and now you’ve got a room to yourself that you share an
adjoining bath with somebody if that room happens to be filled. There were a few of us, enough
of us there, that most of us there had bathrooms and rooms completely to ourselves.
�Interviewer: When do you go out into the community, I guess, is the question.
I guess we usually went with the people we were with. We went, you know, there really wasn’t,
you know, I mean the bases provided pretty much all the entertainment and everything you
needed. Go off base was usually to go, you know, one of the fellas that I, you know, where we
stayed at the time had a motorcycle and we’d go out and go off on a motorcycle ride but usually
we rode with, you know, somebody else who was also in the Navy. We really didn’t have too
many opportunities. Now my parents did come and visit me a number of times and we went out
and explored, you know, Charleston and some of the plantations, but to be honest I didn’t see
any overt signs of racism until I was working in a planning office in Lake County, Florida in
1995 where, sadly, my supervisor pointed out that if you looked you could still see where
“Blacks Only” had been painted over on the water fountain, and that was just… you know, that
was sad and sickening. To think that in that day and age someone could still be proud of it, and
proud of the fact that we had a former, you know, imperial wizard in Lake County.
Interviewer: Alright. So I’m gonna go back now to your training. So, how long then did
you spend in Charleston?
I spent about a year in total there.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and now do you get your new rating and then you have to go to
school for that?
Yes. Absolutely. That school was in Lakehurst, New Jersey which is… you know, about halfway
between Philadelphia and Atlantic City, a little further north than that. It’s where the Hindenburg
crashed and the hanger, you know, that was used for the Hindenburg and other blimps is still,
you know, was still there in the 80’s and I understand is still there. I’m assuming, and now it as a
historic preservation designation to protect it, but it’s just unbelievable to picture the scale, you
know, of the blimp until you see the hanger.
Interviewer: Cause the blimp would fit inside it. (35:57)
Yes! Most of it would fit in, the tail oftentimes didn’t, but when my dad found out I was going to
Lakers he was just, he was so excited. He had a recording of various events in history and, you
know, he dug it out and he played a copy of the recording of the gentleman who was covering
the landing, it was the first landing of the season and, you know, the classic “Oh, the humanity!”
and just to see it for real… I mean today it still sends chills up my spine. I got to know one of the
base photographers and I have four copies of original, you know, photographs of the Hindenburg
while it was crashing. They said, “You can take anything you want as long as you don’t take the
�last one or the negative.” Those have been proudly hung in pretty much every apartment I’ve had
and are, you know, it’s horrible but it’s exciting and it’s history. And I could say I’ve actually
been there, I’ve been in the hanger, I’ve been in the back of the hanger and stayed in the back of
the hanger. While I was there they had a big airshow with the Blue Angels and the Blue Angels
were doing some practice runs, and one of them crashed and the pilot was killed, and one of the
women from our barracks who was permanently stationed there happened to be on duty that day
and had to go out and take the pictures of the, you know, of the scene and she was naturally,
extremely shook up and so we took turns literally staying with her 24 hours cause she did, you
know, she says, “If I go to sleep I see it again.” And so when they, you know, encouraged us
students to help out with this thing and we’re all going, “We’ll help but we’re going to be in the
back, we don’t want to see, you know, we don’t want to risk seeing another plane crash.” You
know, they didn’t have any plane crashes but, you know. You see four go over and three come
back and your gut tells you, you know, something’s wrong and then the alarms start going off
and, you know, so…
Interviewer: Okay. So what else goes on, what action was going on at base besides training
people for your job?
There was, it was actually a, you know, there was, you know, a station there. We weren’t the
only people being trained there, I don’t remember what the other training was but there was an
actual duty station. It, Lakehurst, abuts, is it McCoy—it’s a big Air Force base just, you know,
adjacent to it and I want to say there’s an army facility there too and so they did all kinds of, you
know, joint maneuvers and when I went back up in the late 80’s, mid 80’s, to Philadelphia for
graduate school, I took time and drove out there and at that time, and from what I’ve heard from
other people, the base is now and has been for many years a top-secret facility and… you know,
there’s basically a place where you can turn around at the gate and, you know, if they’re not busy
they’ll talk to you and, you know, yeah I was stationed here once upon a time and all those
buildings are long gone but, you know, the hanger is still there and you can see it from the road
but beyond that, you know. They have super top-secret clearance well beyond anything I ever,
you know, had.
Interviewer: Alright. So what did the school consist of? (40:03)
School consists of teaching you various cloud-types, precipitation types, everything from rain to
snow to sleet to hail to hurricanes to, you know, tsunamis. Various weather patterns, you know,
what various winds mean, how to plot them on a map and then how to make sense of it what
you’ve got the information on a map, you know, and just every hour observations are required to
throughout the entire, you know, not only the Naval system but the entire meteorological, you
know, world and back then, once you did it you took your observation, you put it in your log
book, put it on your maps and then someone else usually had to be—you’d take turns to do it,
�there’s always at least two people in the office, print it up on a teletype machine, you know, one
finger at a time or so and send it out so that everybody else knew what you had so they could add
it to theirs and that was how we developed, you know, an idea whether fronts were coming
through, we had some very very basic satellite images that, you know, sometimes you can see
something and you know sometimes the satellite was just not gonna cooperate and you had
nothing.
Interviewer: Yeah, I guess there was a nationwide radar system by that? Or?
Very little for weather purposes, it was still, you know.
Interviewer: It was still early enough in the 70’s it's not as common as it would become
later on.
No, you know, and the satellites were not nearly as, you know, efficient as a main, you know,
now they can, you know, they can pick out the license plate on your trailer and, you know, if
you’re staying out there what brand cigarette you’re smoking. You know, we would be lucky to
say, you know, “Is that a cloud or is that a ship?” You know, or is that just a blip in the satellite
download? And sometimes you literally, you know, had to guess and go back and look at the
previous reports because they only came in like every 6 hours, and well based on that it’s still in
the same place it probably wasn’t a cloud it really was a ship. Or, you know, a sandbar or, you
know, who knows a whole island. You just kind of got seen by, you know, guess and by God
will you figure it out, you know, what was what, you know, and to think that, you know, we
would spend hours doing this stuff which today they, you know, it all comes in to computers and
prints out and you know, five minutes everything that we spent a couple of days doing.
Interviewer: Did you have computers at all? (42:57)
No.
Interviewer: Not there yet?
No.
Interviewer: So what year is this now?
This is ‘73 through ‘75.
Interviewer: Alright and… and you were living on the base at that point?
�Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Okay and could you get off the base or do anything else?
You could get off, in Lakers we could get off the base and go to various places when you weren’t
studying but, you know, it was a fairly, you know, it was a far more intensive, you know,
training program then to become a dispersing clerk so, you know, a lot more time was spent
studying. Cause there was, you know, there was a lot more material.
Interviewer: You had to memorize a lot.
Yeah. Yes.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and that’s still the school so once the school finishes where do
you go? (43:46)
Well, you know, as with any other school the postings come open as to what has become
available. Well, turns out hurricane hunters had an opening. It required someone with prior
service time, two of us qualified: he had been in the Navy 28 days longer than I have. He got first
pick. I mean it’s every weather guesser’s dream to be in the hurricane hunters, at least, you
know, we thought. So he picked it. Second choice was between Adak, Alaska or Roosevelt
Roads, Puerto Rico. I chose Roosevelt Roads, Puerto Rico. Before my orders were cut he had
bailed on the hurricane hunters, he decided that was not for him, they tried to get my orders recut
and, you know, it didn’t work so somebody a couple classes after us, you know, potentially got
lucky, I never did, you know, did hear. But Roosevelt Roads being warm was definitely more
interesting than the land of horizontal snow.
Interviewer: Okay. So what was at Roosevelt Roads?
Roosevelt Roads was the largest, area wise, base the Navy has ever had. Most of it was
underwater at high tide and barely above water at low tide; air field was miles from anything
else. I was only the 12th woman ever assigned to the base and the first woman in the weather
office, so, you know. But it was, you know, it was a city unto its own, which was, you know,
rather fortunate because at that point we weren’t paying a whole lot of attention to Vietnam
because we were more concerned with the political problem in Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico had
probably 20, 30 political parties all of which were warring with each other to the point of
bombing and shooting, you know, there were a great number of times where we were restricted
to base because of the danger and there were a couple of times the powerlines to the base got cut.
We were re-established very quickly but, you know, you couldn’t go too far. Fortunately there
was a really good Puerto Rican restaurant literally at one of the gates, and so, you know, if you
�couldn’t go anywhere else you could go there. Oh my God, they had the best rice and beans. You
know, I’ve only managed to make it like that a couple of times but, yeah. So, you know, if we
went we went as a group, usually, you know, a couple of times the weather office, you know,
anybody who wasn’t working and the Lieutenant Commander in charge, you know, got a van
and we went out and explored El Yunque, the rainforest which was right near the base and then
we, you know, took a trip inland—Arecibo, which is where the big radio telescope is, and I did
end up seeing the other end around where Air Force had had a base on a visit with a group of
SEAL team who were visiting from Norfolk but it was pretty strange, especially the rainforest,
you know, they had been trying to repopulate it with birds but the poverty was such that the
people were killing the birds for food even though, you know, the brightly colored birds really
have very little meat on them and, you know, their value is in their looks. But you go into a
rainforest and you’d expect to hear, you know, birds chirping and, you know, all you’d hear, you
know, were the little coquís, the little frogs, you know, like this, you know, and almost nothing
else. It was almost spooky.
Interviewer: Alright, and were there any kind of distinctive events that took place while
you were there or things that disrupted the routine other than worries about the Puerto
Rican violence?
I think I disrupted the routine more than anything else. Once again, I get down there and every
time you take an observation you log it in the book and you’re supposed to initial it with your
first and last initials, which in my case would have been SS for Susan Strum. Those initials were
already taken, so then we look at “Well, what about your middle initial, last name? To be MS?”
already taken. This is an office that’s only got, like, less than 20 people in it! So, “Okay, what
about first name, middle initial? SM?” It’s taken. I don’t know what I’m supposed to—they had
to get special permission from someplace else for me to use 3 initials and to this day I sign
everything with SMS, you know, it just became ingrained in me during my time there. “Why do
you use 3 initials?” I can’t do it any other way. But it was interesting being the first woman in
the office with some adjusting, but, you know, everybody was really helpful and we all, you
know, you kind of worked as teams and, you know, especially if you worked 11 hour days and
13 hour nights so you kind of take turns literally, you know, curling up under the drafting board,
you know, one of you would stay awake the other would take a nap, you know. Couple hours
later, you know, you’d switch. Only, you know, problem that came with this is in somebody’s
infinite wisdom the weather office was located on the parking lot side away from the air field.
We had to go out and, you know, we were responsible for maintaining reports on the weather on
the air field. Well we couldn’t see it! We either had to, you know, wait for our equipment which
was out in the air field to start, you know, if it was raining, you know, we had measured, you
know, we had equipment that would measure it and it would—we did have computers, it would
come in and measure into the computer and we would read off the measurements, you know, etc.
but they were, you know, giant ENIAC type things and, you know, all they did was tell you what
�happened but nothing beyond that. You had to figure out what the numbers meant or, you know,
the air traffic controllers who fortunately did have a view of the air field, you know, would say,
“Hey guys, it’s raining out here, you wanna come take an observation?” and then depending on
what the situation was, especially, you know, because the land was so flat you get a lot of, you
know, it didn’t take oftentimes much rain to cause major flooding and there were several
instances while we were there of people trying to, you know, do what they tell you to this day: if
you see running water across the road, don’t try and cross it. Well, somebody was all “I gotta get
back to the base” or “I’m meeting somebody” and get washed away and drowned. So, you know,
we could send out our reports to the other weather stations through the teletype in the office, stay
nice and dry. Unfortunately for flood warnings and things like that had to go to the
communications center, which it was about the opposite end of the base. On my shift I was the
only one with a military driver's license, the guys had all managed to lose theirs. One of them by
passing the base commandant’s car, I mean… guys, its got flags on it! He’s got an escort, what
were you thinking, we’re lucky he was able to stay in the Navy without losing any rating! So that
was always real fun because the only time that you had to do it was if the weather was really
nasty, and so you’re going to the, you know, you’re doing, you know, water’s over the road?
Doesn’t matter you gotta get to the comms center, you know, and then you gotta get back.
Interviewer: Now were you driving Jeeps or regular cars or pickup trucks? (52:19)
Pickup truck.
Interviewer: Okay.
You know… stick, on the column.
Interviewer: And did you ever drive through running water?
Oh absolutely. And over land crabs—they had these huge crabs that I don’t think were edible, I
never knew of it, but they were, I swear to God, the size of plates and, you know, the rain would
wash them up and you’d just hear them cracking under the wheel and there were times I’d come
back to the office and I would just be, you know, I’m sobbing because I’ve killed so many of
these crabs and of course by the next day the rain has washed them all away or somebody has
eaten them, you know, and the road’s clear again and I’m like, “But it’s gonna happen again! I
don’t wanna do this, can’t somebody get another driver’s license!”
Interviewer: Alright. Now thinking about the time you spent in Puerto Rico are there other
aspects of that experience that stand out for you?
�It was fairly calm for the tropics. We had no hurricanes while I was there, we had, you know,
some winds but fortunately for me I decided when my time to get out came I had, you know,
saved up a 30 days leave and I chose to, you know, you could either, you know, stay to your end
and cash it out, you know, or you could use it or a portion thereof. Well, I chose to use it and,
you know, came back to Muskegon and enrolled in community college and got all set for, you
know, I could star the Fall semester which had I stayed there for the 30 days the semester would
have already started and it would have, you know, I could have tried to play catch up but, you
know, just didn’t feel like that would be a real good idea so I got everything done here and then
went and spent about a week and a half at Great Lakes in a transitional barracks while they
processed my paperwork, came back and jumped into classes at MCC and… got going. Well in
the meantime, during those 30 days a hurricane developed and there were 2 or 3 guys who were
supposed to be getting out at the same time I did and they all got their time in service extended
for a good 6 months and experienced a hurricane. Because we were on the far, you know, eastern
edge so we got the first full brunt of anything coming through the tropics and…
Interviewer: So if you had stayed there…
It’s an experience that I really, you know…
Interviewer: Were they extended because it was just a lot of work to be done to repair the
base?
Yeah because the weather office, you know, we still had to do something. I ended up, you know,
spending about 30 years in Florida so I ended up with enough experience in the tropical storms
and close to hurricanes that, you know, made up for missing one in Puerto Rico.
Interviewer: Now had your plan always been to just do one enlistment and then leave?
(55:25)
I really wasn’t sure, you know, my original plan had been to do the three year but then in order to
get the additional training I had to add an additional not quite a full year, but it was close to it, so
I actually ended up spending close to 4 years, you know, which made the Navy and Air Force
practically identical in the end run, but I decided finally at the end that since they said, you
know, “Sign the paperwork then we’ll talk.” I think I’m like, “Eh, I’d really rather like to talk
first.” But in the end I said that it’s not what I’m going to do, I’m gonna get out and use the GI
bill to go back and I think I know what I want to do and I think this may be an area that I’m
really interested in so, you know, I came back to community college because living at home
didn’t, you know, JC didn’t cost that much so I used very little of my money. Then after I got my
Associates degree and went back up to Edmonton where I was originally from to the University
of Alberta, which is the university my father had gone to, thinking I was going to major in
�meteorology cause they—it was between them and Michigan State and having been gone for 4
years Michigan State was just a little too close, you know. Mom and Dad would want me home
every weekend or they would be showing up to school every weekend and then I just, you know,
I was not ready for that. I had moved on, so, you know, 2000 miles worked out. As it turns out,
you know, I decided it really wasn’t, I enjoyed the social sciences more than the others so I
switched to Social Geography, ended up with a degree in Urban Geography with a minor in
Sociology and then came back to Muskegon where the employment was a little bit better but not
a whole lot. So I spent some time working for my father and his engineering office and he
designed electrical-mechanical for buildings and was also very active in the initial renovation
and restoration of the Hackney and Hume houses here in Muskegon, so, you know, any time
anybody was home we got hauled in on that, you know. As a separate thing and then I got hired
by Muskegon county in their planning department, but after just about 2 years they decided to
eliminate the department and so basically said, “Use our resources to find yourselves other jobs.”
and they had one fellow who they transferred to working for the bus garage as a planner and the
other two of us were just kind of left to our own devices to find things and I decided at that point
it was a good time to get a graduate degree, so I ended up going to the University of
Pennsylvania in City and Regional Planning and while I was there I was offered a job by the city
of Orlando as a planner and I took that job and then spent pretty much the next 30 years working
in Florida. Initially, you know, doing a little bit of everything: housing, law enforcement, fire
planning, some environmental and then ended up specializing in affordable housing, working
with first time home buyers and non-profits that provided housing for disabled and very low
income households and that was real rewarding.
Interviewer: Yeah and I guess how much building goes on in Florida, there as populated as
everything else and it’s probably a lot of business there.
Yes, yes, yes. And the program I worked for actually was a grant program, but it was funded
through the sales of property. A certain portion of the taxes went into a trust fund which worked
really well for awhile until the governor discovered, you know, and several governors discovered
that they were allowed to scoop some of the money out to balance their budgets and the money
became less and less and fortunately—or unfortunately that kind of tied in with my retirement
date and considering that my supervisor also did historic preservation, which I had some
knowledge of but was not, you know, the expert she was so I couldn’t take her position and the
other person in the office made about half of what I did and plus I was the only one at retirement
age, so it just worked out, you know, provincially that the money ran out, my time, you know,
was, you know, clicking as well. I retired in 2012, moved back to Muskegon, 2013 became a
volunteer here at the Silversides and the rest is history.
Interviewer: Now, back at the time that you spent in the Navy, how would you characterize
the climate for women at that time? (1:00:26)
�Most of the time it was very good, there were a couple instances where individuals themselves,
you know, caused problems but overall the Navy was really pretty receptive, at least where I
was. We did have one incident or a senior chief petty officer at Lakehurst who was stationed
there for some other reason, had nothing to do with our school, but he insisted on coming to the
graduation parties and he outranked pretty much everybody in the program and the officers had
told him to stay away and what are you gonna do? And he would go, you know, fondle these
poor—and these kids, you know, I don’t know they’re 18, 19 years old they’re terrified of this
guy cause they should be, and, you know, our instructors and everything just kind of, you know,
when it gets time for our class to have the parties, you know, I’ve heard about this guy, I’m
watching and I’m trying to keep him away from some of the younger ones but hey, well, he
grabbed me and I bit him. I bit his arm, and I bit him hard, I drew blood.
Interviewer: I take it that actually worked?
It did. I got congratulations for months after that when people found where I was because he
never came back, he had to go to the, you know, to the base hospital cause I had broken the skin
and he had to explain to them what had happened and I had, you know, lots of witnesses and he
never bothered, you know, the AD school again. You know, I mean I was sorry it came to that,
you know, but I’m glad I, you know, was in a position to do something however distasteful it
was. Cause talking to this guy didn’t work but other than that everybody I worked with, you
know, for the most part was—I mean there was always some hesitancy first, when you’re the
first woman in the office, you know, “What’s she gonna be like?” But, you know, hey I went to
the same school and, you know, learned the same things you guys did, knew the same training
and had the same opportunity.
Interviewer: And I guess the working environments that you worked at were ones where
usually that many people make a small group, like some of these meteorological things, or
even with the disbursement thing here in the office where the Lieutenant Commander’s
right there, and the Filipinos were they female, male? (1:03:11)
Male. I was the only female in that office, there were other females stationed in the main office
but I was the only one in the sub-office.
Interviewer: But in those places you might well not have had a subculture that was
conducive to harassment or anything like that.
No.
Interviewer: Cause it pops up periodically and it happens in service.
�Oh absolutely, yeah I mean, I have heard horror stories. Fortunately nothing other than that one
instance which I just relayed to you, you know, was affected by it, thankfully.
Interviewer: Alright. I mean, to look back on it now, what do you think you took out of
your time in the Navy or what did you learn from it?
I mean it was a great experience. I learned patience, you know, I learned to focus. When I went
back to MCC I teased, you know, there were a lot of the same professors and staff there and I
went from, you know, the Dean’s uh-uh list to the Dean’s mmhm list, you know? And he
recognized it and, you know, it was encouraging.
Interviewer: Alright. Well the whole thing makes for a good story so thank you for coming
and sharing it today.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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StrumS2310V
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Strum, Susan Margaret
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-06
Title
A name given to the resource
Strum, Susan (Interview transcript and video), 2019
Description
An account of the resource
Susan Strum was born in Alberta, Canada, in 1951 and grew up in Michigan after her father’s work moved to the United States. Her father was a Canadian citizen working for a telephone company in Edmonton and her mother was a schoolteacher in Michigan. After graduating high school in 1969, Strum enrolled into Muskegon Community College, but the poor job market deterred her from completing her degree and she began looking into the military as a viable alternative. She enlisted into the Navy in 1971 once she earned her full American citizenship. For Basic Training, Strum was sent to Bainbridge, Maryland, where she described the induction process as oddly organized. She was trained as a Dispersing Clerk and was transferred to a Naval Training Center in San Diego, California, for another ten weeks of training on how to calculate payrolls and use calculators while in sexually integrated courses. From there, she was stationed in Charleston, South Carolina, for a year where she handled payrolls for several Navy detachments on the base. Strum later began training in recognizing precipitation types, meteorology, and weather patterns in Lakehurst, New Jersey, from 1973-75. After graduation, she was transferred to a Naval base at Roosevelt Roads, Puerto Rico, where she was assigned to the base’s Weather Office. While at Roosevelt Roads, Strum was more concerned with the unstable, violent political situation in Puerto Rico than with the ongoing war in Vietnam. She was also the first woman assigned to the Weather Office at Roosevelt Roads. From there, Strum decided to leave the Navy since she had accrued enough service points, was discharged, and returned to Muskegon, Michigan, where she re-enrolled into Muskegon Community College. She graduated with a degree in urban geography and a minor in sociology and went on to study regional planning at the University of Pennsylvania for her graduate degree. Strum was then hired by the city of Orlando as a regional planner and proceeded to spend the next thirty years of her career in Florida before retiring in 2012. She then moved back to Muskegon and began volunteering at the USS Silversides Museum. Reflecting upon her service, Strum believed the climate for women in the military was, for the most part, good despite some isolated instances of gender conflict. She ultimately believed her time in the Navy was a great experience which taught her the values of patience, focus, and discipline.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
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Stelter, LeeRoy
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War:
Interviewee’s Name: LeeRoy Stelter
Length of Interview: 1:23:49
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman
Interviewer: We’re talking today with LeeRoy Stelter of St. Joseph, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with where and
when were you born?
I was born in April 7th, 1948 in Coloma, Michigan.
Interviewer: Alright and did you grow up there? (00:21)
Pretty much, graduated– Actually transferred my senior year from Coloma to St. Joe and
graduated high school in St. Joe, Michigan.
Interviewer: Okay, and what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?
Basically my father was pretty much a mechanic, a maintenance man, and he was steadily
employed at a couple of different places so.
Interviewer: Okay, alright and so then what year did you finish high school?
1966.
Interviewer: Okay, and what did you do after you graduated?
Went to work in a factory making– A factory that made record players.
Interviewer: Okay back when we still did that, I guess they still make them. Alright and
now at this time how aware were you of the Vietnam war?
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When I graduated from high school it was a topic we about amongst ourselves because of the
draft. It started and everybody had to register and it was on the news at night, that was pretty
much the extent of the awareness.
Interviewer: Okay, and then how did you wind up in the military?
I had a cousin ask me what I was gonna do for a career, at that point in time I had no idea, I felt
that I would continue to work in a factory and he suggested that I might consider joining the
Army as an opportunity to help my career enlist– Get into a program that might be beneficial to
me after I left. So I went down and talked to the recruiter and he showed me this opportunity to
become a microwave radio repairman. Which is basically AT&T military version, we would
send basically battalion level communications back and forth between battalions just as their
means of communicating with one another. So I figured that would give me a background in
electronics, that’s late 60s electronics were coming of age and I thought that would be an
excellent opportunity for me, besides it took seven months of training to become a microwave
radio repairman and I had no idea, you know what the likelihood was of me ending up in
Vietnam until I completed my training.
Interviewer: Yeah, so maybe if you trained long enough the war will be done and I’ll go
home.
That was a thought.
Interviewer: Oh well, okay so when did you start basic training? (3:00)
In August of 1967.
Interviewer: Okay, alright and where did you go for basic training?
Fort Knox, Kentucky.
Interviewer: Okay, I guess back up a little before that, you had a physical, a draft physical
or did you get it initially?
When I– Because I had enlisted there was a delay because I actually had to synchronize my time
in basic training with when the microwave radio school started. So they started me out a little bit
after I was initially enlisted so I had already accumulated some reserve time, then I went in, like I
say, at the end of August and that timed by basic training so that when I got out I was in sync
with the microwave radio school.
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Interviewer: Okay, I was asking in part about did you have initially a draft– A physical
when you first signed up for the draft or was your first physical after you enlisted?
My first physical was after I enlisted.
Interviewer: Okay, alright and then where do you go for basic training?
Basic training again was Fort Knox, Kentucky.
Interviewer: Fort Knox, right. So we’re at Fort Knox and then what did they do when you
get there?
Basically issued us our attire, gave us haircuts, assigned us to a company area, and we kind of
got introduced to basic military practices.
Interviewer: Okay, and you know often showing up for basic training it gets depicted as a
bunch of guys with smokey bear hats yelling at you and things, some of that’s from the
Marine Corps but did you get that kind of treatment when you showed up? (4:57)
Absolutely, my drill sergeant looked like Smokey the bear, he happened to be a black gentleman,
very highly decorated staff sergeant– Or actually sergeant 1st class, I’m sorry. He was a member
of the Green Berets, supposedly had a field commission as a major when he was in the field, had
been– And he stated this to us, when he put his dress uniform on he had been awarded every
medal or citation he could have gotten at the time, he was an extremely well qualified individual.
Interviewer: Alright, and how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the Army?
Fairly simple, my parents raised me to follow, you know do what you’re told and keep your
mouth shut and I really didn’t find it with much difficulty at all. Although there was an issue and
I don’t completely understand exactly what happened but my training company ended up being
very special. There were a lot of different exercises that other people went through that we did
not go through and I didn’t completely understand that until we got towards the end of the cycle,
but at the time that I went in in ‘67 they were pretty much trained to, if you will, clean out the
inner cities. So there were a lot of very rough individuals, if you will, in my company, there were
a couple that went AWOL they served on a detail out picking up trash, a couple of them made a
run for it. The guard of course yelled “Halt!” They didn’t halt, he fired a warning shot, they
continued, he leveled on them and I don’t remember whether one or two was killed. So that
brought our training company under scrutiny by the Army so we didn’t– Most other training
companies marched or ran to their– From training activity to training activity, we took buses.
There was very few times we wrote, bivouac, some people spent two or three nights out in the
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bushes, we were out for one night and then I guess we were under tight surveillance. I didn’t
realize it, they were very concerned there might be some, I guess some further AWOLs or what
but so it was a different experience.
Interviewer: Okay, now were there tensions or conflicts among the recruits themselves?
Not really, you know there were just normal things we had in my platoon. For instance there was
a couple guys that started mouthing off to each other and they ended up settling it by– Like a
dance off, “I can dance better than you can.” You know we do it better in Philly than you do in
New Jersey. It was interesting but even though it was quite a diverse group from a large part of
the country they got along pretty well.
Interviewer: Alright, and then I guess the other thing would be the physical training side of
things, I mean was that easy enough for you or did you have to get in better shape?
Well like I said we were not required to run and march as much as the other groups so we may
have been a little deficient as far as physical training went but I think we participated in most
normal physical training activities.
Interviewer: Okay, and then how long did basic last? How long– (9:00)
Two months.
Interviewer: Okay and then what did you do next?
I was– When I left Fort Knox I was put on a, and I remember this very well, it was a
constellation the plane with three tail fins up and we flew that from St.-- Louisville, Kentucky to
Newark Airport and I distinctly remember the plane circling over the New York metropolitan
area. I saw the Empire State Building for the first time in my life, it was an experience. I had
flown before so it wasn’t my first flight but it was memorable because we flew over the New
York skyline and landed in Newark.
Interviewer: And where were they taking you?
To Fort Monmouth, New Jersey.
Interviewer: Alright, and then what did you do there?
There I received my training as a microwave radio repairman, basically they start you out
teaching you basic electronics and that goes on for several weeks, once you get the basic
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electronics then they teach you how to operate the microwave radio gear. It was interesting at
that time the equipment that we trained on was left over from the Korean War so it was tube type
equipment, although the military did have solid state equipment. At the last week or two of
training they introduced us to solid state electronics so in case we might serve somewhere where
that was the equipment that they were using but in it’s– That’s interesting as well because the
solid state stuff was in other parts of the country, it was also microwave radio was also used as
missile guidance radio equipment. So some of the guys left Monmouth and went to Fort Sill,
Oklahoma to join up with the, I guess they call them artillery but they were– Artillery was
missiles. So they received the same training that we did for that but the tube type equipment that
we worked on in school was primarily used in Vietnam. So if you were being trained on the
Amtrak 29 you were going to Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay, so they were at least teaching you on the equipment you were going to
use as opposed to switching you at the last minute.
Correct.
Interviewer: Okay, so it sort of makes sense and for the Army I guess that’s good.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah, alright now what was daily life like there? (11:45)
At Fort Monmouth it was pretty plain and simple, very much a lot closer to civilian life, very laid
back, it wasn’t as military as you might expect although there was a period of time where the
individuals that were training to learn about the microwave equipment came from other areas of
the military where career soldiers were changing their MOS, their–
Interviewer: “Specialty.”
Specialty to another field and so there were some career soldiers that were blended in with us. At
a point in time there were a couple of gentlemen from Airborne, they had a whole different idea
about how we should do things and we actually had a little difference of opinion at a point in
time. I was one of the three guys that dissented, we went through the military chain of command,
went and saw the 1st sergeant, the XO, finally ended up in front of the old man, the Airborne
fellas felt that our barracks wasn’t strack enough so they wanted a little more spit and polish. We
obliged them, they came back they didn’t find our barracks spit and polished enough they found
a few grains of dust here and there and they pulled our passes for the weekend and at that point
we dissented and when we got to the old man, the captain that was over our company, he kind of
like “What the heck are these guys doing? This is a microwave school, this isn’t Airborne.” So
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he reinstated our passes and we didn’t see those guys for a couple of weeks and that was towards
the end of our training so we left.
Interviewer: So the Airborne guys, they were just other people who were going through the
school right?
Correct.
Interviewer: They were not there as instructors, they didn’t have authority over you.
That’s correct, they were basically peers even though they were higher rank, they were buck
sergeant and I think an E6 hard stripe sergeant that were basically put in charge of our platoon
and then you know as platoon leaders they wanted to set the standard and didn’t fit.
Interviewer: Lovely, okay now did you get to go off base much?
Yeah every weekend and evenings, we were quite free. We could wander about I went– I was
there at a bad time of year through the winter, New Jersey is relatively mild winter climate, so
we could get out and about pretty easily. There was times when that winter of ‘67, ‘68 it was
kind of snowy so it was interesting because the military issues everyone a snow shovel and you
went out and cleared the walks and driveways, just manpower but it worked rather well, had a
nice clean area when it did snow but– (15:05)
Interviewer: And would you go to New York or Philadelphia?
I was in an odd situation, I had broken my car that I had before I went in the military and that car
had to be paid for, I was making payments on it, besides the fact that I broke it which cost a
whole lot more to restore it and then they ended up selling it and it didn’t quite cover what I
owed on it. So I spent probably two thirds of my military career sending most of the money that I
made home so I couldn’t venture out too far but I did go to New York City once and that was an
experience in itself.
Interviewer: Okay, now you’re also there, you’re getting into 1968 a lot of kind of
interesting things are happening politically at that point. You’ve had the Tet Offensive had
happened, Johnson decides not to run, King gets assassinated, now were you at Fort
Monmouth when those things happened?
Yes, and to that point the activity that I saw on base there was a group, because we were there for
training it didn’t involve us but it involved the people that were permanently assigned to Fort
Monmouth, they had a drill one weekend and loaded the troops onto the helicopter and evacuated
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them or relocated them. So they were basically drilling and preparing for riots, so we had the
experience.
Interviewer: Alright, but on the base itself there wasn’t a whole lot of trouble or regulation.
No trouble, no demonstrations, I think at one point in time there might have been like five or six
people outside the base with signs and you know people just said “There’s demonstrators out
there.” And it’s like, really, so but nothing notable.
Interviewer: Alright, so when do you finish up at Fort Monmouth?
In May of ‘68.
Interviewer: Okay, and what happens to you next?
I went home for a 30 day leave and then made my trip over across the pond. At one point at the
end of training we sat down with an individual that talked to us about where we were going to be
assigned. I was asked at the time if there was anybody else in my family that was in the military
and at the time my brother was and indeed he was serving off the coast of Vietnam on a
destroyer with the– He was naval reserve, spending his time in active duty with the Navy off the
coast of Vietnam. (18:05) So at that point I really didn’t have to go to Vietnam, I was told that
but then I asked when my brother left the coast of Vietnam how long would it take for me to be
assigned to Vietnam, they said “For your MOS which is very critical in Vietnam, you would go
immediately.” So I said “Well let’s just go and get it over with.” So that’s what got me to
Vietnam.
Interviewer: Alright now what’s the process of shipping somebody to Vietnam?
Basically they make sure you have all the necessary immunizations and shots that you need,
there was a very brief period of training like a day. That was done at Fort Dix just prior to me
shipping out, I think– I don’t really remember exactly how that happened but basically they took
you into a room, sat you down, explained a few things like there were some things in basic
training that were pointed towards the Vietnam war, the night fighting and different things but
we really didn’t do any specific training in basic, that was all to come in your AIT but like I say
for us being radio men they put us on the back of a deuce and half, we drove down a road on Fort
Dix Army Base there, they simulated an assault, an ambush if you will. We were told at the
beginning that should you run into an ambush you jump off the other side of the truck and hide
in the bushes, you know. So we’re to work our way back to a certain point and we just walked
through the woods and got back to where we were supposed to be and that was our training.
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Interviewer: Okay, alright and then do they fly you out of Fort Dix or do you fly civilian
aircraft?
When I went over for the first tour I flew out on civilian aircraft, stopped over in– I believe the
first time I went stopped over in Hawaii and then I think it was either Wake Island or Guam to
refuel and then we landed directly into Bien Hoa Air Base.
Interviewer: Okay, alright and what’s your first impression of Vietnam when you get
there?
When– On the plane, you know we’re talking to each other and we’re wondering you know are
we gonna jump off the plane and run to a fox hole or what’s gonna happen and it was very
uneventful. The plane landed, we got out, the Vietnamese civilians were all over outside the
airport, once we landed at the airport we were transported by bus to the 90th replacement. The
bus had wire screening on the windows so it’s like “Okay what’s this all about?” Well it’s to
keep them from throwing hand grenades in the bus, you know it’s like “Oh, okay.” But we just,
you know drove down the road and Vietnamese civilians were all over the place so it was a little
strange, I mean we always– Growing up you always heard the World War II stories, the front
and stuff and that didn’t exist in Vietnam, that was a different kind of thing but we went to 90th
replacement, it’s funny in a way that I was there for a couple of days they knew where I was
gonna be assigned to 327th Signal Company was at Long Binh and Long Binh’s only like five
miles away from Bien Hoa Air Base which is where the 98th replacement was. (22:05) Took
them a couple days to come over there and pick us up and take us to the 327th Signal Company
and get us acclimated so.
Interviewer: Alright so you start out then based in Long Binh?
Right.
Interviewer: Okay, and what were you doing there?
Basically most of the people that I went over there with, the microwave technicians, were
brought to the headquarters company there in Long Binh and then immediately shipped out to a
detachment. Personally I was left there for like three months and basically we pulled– I pulled
details, we went out and got a truckload of dirt to fill sandbags with, there was some sandbag
filling, there was some painting, sprucing thing up around the company area. I spent one day in a
commo bunker, basically every hour on the hour you’d make communication contact, somebody
would call you, you would respond, they would affirm that you were where you were supposed
to be and nothing was happening on the base. The idea being if something did happen people
would come to the bunker, it was like a command bunker, and at that point in time they would’ve
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set up a command center and stuff but basically all we were doing was keeping a
communications web functional.
Interviewer: Okay so you’re really not doing very much of what you were trained for at
that point.
Not at all, not at all. So that was another thing I thought “Gee, what am I doing here?” So it took
like I say about three months and then every morning you’d fall out into formation, you’d be
assigned to do something and then you might go out with a couple other guys or a dozen guys
depending on what the detail was going to do and it was kind of odd in a way, I never served KP,
you know I could’ve just as well as anybody else but the things that they had me do were pretty
common simple stuff. So and then one day I fell out in formation, 1st sergeant said “Stelter I
wanna see you in the headquarters office after the formation and need to talk to you a little bit.”
So when the formation was dismissed I went to the 1st sergeant’s office and he told me that I had
been reassigned and I would be transported down to a base called Vinh Long to replace a soldier
that we had lost during a mortar attack.
Interviewer: Okay, now during those three months when you’re at Long Binh did you
spend that whole time on the base or did you ever go off it?
Always on the base.
Interviewer: Alright, okay so where is Vinh Long? (25:10)
Vinh Long was— It’s the Mekong River came into Vietnam, it split into three prongs, basically
Vinh Long was on the middle prong and it was on the south bank of the river and it was part of a
radio relay set up for my signal company between Dong Tam, Vinh Long was the relay and the
eventual site that the signal went to was Can Tho. In Can Tho they did have solid state
equipment, they had a piece of equipment they called track 90 which was tropospheric scatter, it
had a huge dish and they bounced the radio signal off the troposphere and then down to Saigon.
So that was the delta’s communication link to Saigon, the Dong Tam, My Tho was the closest
Vietnamese village, was the base for the 25th Infantry Division. That base was the fellows from
our outfit that were stationed there were pretty much under very regular mortar attacks, the
Vietnamese really didn’t like the 25th Infantry Division and as a result that base was attacked
regularly.
Interviewer: Okay, now what was– Okay how did they get you down to Vinh Long?
That was another experience, the first day I grabbed my duffle bag and jumped in a jeep and was
taken to a heliport, I went to get on the helicopter and as we were arriving the helicopter took off,
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I got left behind. Went back to the 1st sergeant said “Hey you know you told me I was supposed
to catch this helicopter and it left.” And he said “Yeah I know, I got a phone call the helicopter
was full and we’ll get you down there.” And I thought “Okay, fine.” So the next day they took
me to a nearby base, I left Long Binh and went to place called Bearcat and there I got on what
they called an otter which is a fixed wing aircraft, extremely slow flying, it was an interesting
experience just taking off in it because it just didn’t seem like it got up enough speed and it took
forever, must of ran the full length of the runway before it got off the ground and another thing
because it flew so slowly it didn’t have a lot of power, they circled Bearcat a couple times to gain
altitude before they flew out over the jungle where they may have been shot at and rode that
down to Vinh Long and found myself reunited with a buddy from radio school and then also met
a gentleman from up north here in Michigan, Grand Haven. He was very excited to see me so I
thought that was pretty good but the change from Long Binh to Vinh Long it was like I was kind
of in a somewhat more civilized, clean, organized area. There were actually like three bedroom
ranch homes that were built in a little development in an area, I’m sure they were occupied by
field officers or whatever but then Vinh Long was kind of a ratty little nasty base and at that
point in time– And I never really had it explained to me or what but Vinh Long was under attack
every night. The first night that I got there, it was like the 4th of July, the whole place was
incoming rounds, outgoing mortar fire, we didn’t– There weren’t any rockets it was mainly
mortars, Huey, Cobra gunships were flying around the perimeter spraying minigun fire into the
perimeter. (29:23) We sat and listened to the radio, there were people crawling into the wires and
stuff around the place, it was like they were, you know trying to over run the base and that went
on probably for the first couple of weeks and I tell people I just really don’t have a good
recollection, I don’t recall what went on during that period of time because just all hell broke
loose every night.
Interviewer: So what’s the basic time frame for that, when do you get out to Vinh Long?
I’m guessing, and I don’t really have a record of it, but I– Like I say I think I spent three months
in Long Binh so that would’ve been, got out of school in May, June I was home for a 30 day
leave prior to going so it must’ve been July, August, September. So late September, early
October I was first arrived there.
Interviewer: Alright, now so how long did it stay that intense?
Probably for at least three or four months but it was gradually deescalating, like I say the first
two weeks it was all hell broke loose every night, then it got to be where it was like every other
night, then it got to a couple times a week, then it got to a couple times a month, and by the time
I left, which was another decision point in my career with the military, I thought “You know it’s
getting pretty quiet around here, why don’t I just go home and come back? I’ll spend eight
months and I’ll get my five month early out and I’ll be out of the military and you know this isn’t
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so bad it’s getting quiet here.” So that was the thing, during Tet I guess the fighting around Vinh
Long was quite intense, as a matter of fact the fellows that were there with the 327 Signal
Company carried their weapons, served on the guard post, they were an active part of the fight.
By the time I got there it had settled “Oh this is quiet.” It had settled down we were no longer,
you know, pulling those kinds of details. So got away from the but the fighting was still, to me,
fairly intense.
Interviewer: Sure, and you were replacing somebody who had gotten killed so–”
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay, now what else was on the base, you had the signal detachment and then
what else?
Well we were there as a relay site okay but we were also supporting a– I’m thinking a battalion,
maybe infantrymen, there was an airstrip there, that was of interest to the enemy because that
was their primary target when they hit us with mortars was to tear up the airstrip but that was
about it, you know a small group of military folks.
Interviewer: And then do you have a sense of what size unit you had for perimeter guard,
did you have a rifle company or a platoon? (32:35)
Probably something like a company, the area was expanded by the airstrip we did protect the
airstrip, at some bases they just protected the living quarters and mess hall and stuff like that, at
our base we were protecting the airstrip as well so it was a little bigger.
Interviewer: Alright, now what kind of physical quarters did you have there?
Actually what we called the Hooch was a wood frame building with a corrugated metal roof and
we were told that that roof was stout enough to protect us from a direct hit by a mortar. The idea
was the mortar would hit the metal roof and it was stiff enough where it would set the mortar off
and the shrapnel would go up and out as mortars were designed to do. So after the fella that I
replaced that had been killed left we– Actually he was killed leaving the Hooch to go to a
bunker, had he stayed in the Hooch he would’ve been fine. So they told us you stay in the Hooch
and crawl under your bunker and cover yourself with your flak jacket. So we always had our flak
jackets hanging on our bunks and we just the top guy would roll out first, get under the bunk, the
bottom bunk would roll in and pull the flak jackets in. The perimeter of the Hooch was filled
with 55 gallon drums filled with sand so that and they were stacked one on top of the other so we
really didn’t have visible– You know you couldn’t look out a window, you saw a steel drum so
we were kind of living in a bunker, if you will.
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Interviewer: Okay, now were they right about the roofs being mortar proof?
We didn’t– We never had the opportunity to find out for sure.
Interviewer: Well good, okay so now were you still taking casualties? You know in those
first weeks when you were there were people still getting hit?
Yes, and I can’t– I don’t know how many were killed or injured or what but there were people
that were being medevaced.
Interviewer: Now do you know if any of the enemy actually managed to get into the
perimeter?
One evening I recall listening to a PRC-25 basically a field radio, we got one from somewhere
and so we were on the same frequency as the perimeter security group was and they were
communicating back and forth with the command bunker and they talked about sappers in the
wire and he’s in the first wire, he’s in the second wire, whatever. So they kept calling back and
forth asking to shoot the guy and they kept saying “No, observe, observe.” Like they wanted to
see how far this guy was going to penetrate the compound before they did anything about it and I
don’t remember the outcome but he didn’t penetrate the perimeter so at that point in time we
were okay. (36:10) Although south of us the Vietnamese– The southern end of the relay was Can
Tho which was a larger base, better protected, the Vietnamese pulled a shenanigan down there
where they somehow got a hold of one of our ambulances, loaded it with guerilla fighters, fired
up the sirens, came to the base after an attack had started like “We’re here to pick up wounded.”
Or whatever, they threw open the gates, these guys drove into the flight line, they got out of the
ambulance, they ran down the flight line, they were throwing satchel charges into the revetments
where the helicopters and aircraft were parked blowing up aircraft and stuff, jumped back in the
ambulance, turned around, fired up the sirens, and drove out the main gate. So it was a suicide
mission, they didn’t expect to get away but you know under normal circumstances I mean here
comes and ambulance what do you do? Wow, open the gate, let them out, take the guys who are
wounded to the hospital, they didn’t realize it was the same ambulance that brought the bad guys
in. So there were those types of attacks that took place but thankfully not at the base I was at at
the time.
Interviewer: Right, now the enemy that was around you, do you know if they were Viet
Cong or North Vietnamese?
From what we were told basically it was Viet Cong, they were local people, at that point in time–
Now this is after Tet of ‘68, Tet kind of extended itself at Vinh Long. The other compounds like
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I say, Dong Tam they were under constant attack all the time, whatever the Viet Cong or N.V.A
had they were throwing it at the 25th Infantry Division. We weren’t quite that much of a target
although it took them quite a while to wipe out or cut back the troops that were coming to try and
overthrow us but we didn’t have that sophisticated of a group and they really didn’t have the fire
power either because our normal attacks were like 60 and 80 millimeter mortars. There was one
event, one time where they got a hold of some 120 millimeter mortars, they dropped three of
them and they fell within, I would say, 100 meters of our Hooch. It was very loud and shrapnel–
With the other attacks we never had shrapnel land on the roof or anything, it came down like
shovelfuls and so we knew it was very close and it was a scary situation.
Interviewer: Does that just happen once? Does that just happen once?
That happened once, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay, alright so does as time sort of goes on do things kind of settle into a
routine for you there?
Pretty much, yeah you know we’d do our social things, we’d get together, sit around, play cards,
drink beer. It kind of varied whether– Because we’re a detachment we’re so small we were under
an NCO, the officer that was in charge, the next person up in our chain of command was actually
stationed in Dong Tam, which is another story. (40:00) So we had an NCO in charge of us so we
were laid back, one sergeant was a little more adept than another and he made a deal with the
mess hall people and got us some steaks and we made some potato salad and drank some beer
and, you know we’d have a little party maybe once a month or something but that gentleman was
only with us for a short period of time. So he made us work hard, we resandbagged bunkers and
refortified our facility and stuff, it was a lot of work to do that but it kept us busy and gave us
something to do and then we were rewarded with a party. The following sergeant that we had
wasn’t quite as resourceful and matter of fact he was pretty reluctant to even fulfill his military
obligation, he was incapacitated a good part of the time, so another experience.
Interviewer: But you guys basically knew what you were doing and just went about and did
your jobs anyway–
Absolutely.
Interviewer: Regardless of that, okay now did you have any Vietnamese who would come
into the compound?
Absolutely, every day. There was a civilian group that came in every morning, most of the
other– Your Hooch would have basically a person I guess assigned to it, we paid them out of our
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pockets to do our military things, shine our boots, clean our clothes, press them, so that stuff,
clean the Hooch out, sweep it out, make our beds, you know just a housekeeper basically. We
were a little exceptional, all the other ones had mamasans, we had a papasan, so we had a guy
that took care of us and he was– He was able to help us out pretty well, he had some good
contacts, he was an older fella so he knew where to go to get things and get things done and
stuff, so it was kind of interesting.
Interviewer: So by getting things, getting things that are on the base or from off the base?
On or off, he knew where to get certain supplies and stuff so that our uniforms were maybe
better cared for than others and just he made– You know you forgot to throw something in to be
washed and he could get it taken care of in a matter of a couple hours, little amenities.
Interviewer: Did you have concerns that any of these people were Viet Cong?
We did not at the time but over time we began to learn that, you know– And we weren’t the ones
to watch, I mean that wasn’t part of our deal, we just heard things after the fact but there were a
couple of things that were significant. One our radio site had a tower, like a scaffold 147 feet in
the air, and that’s where our radio dishes were mounted, that tower was the aiming point for the
mortar attacks, so there was no way they were going to destroy our radio site, we had no idea.
(43:35) The other thing was that from time to time you might see somebody, and they were very
discreet about it but they walked by the radio site, well while they were walking by it they were
counting their steps to measure the distance from the radio tower to targets around the base and
we were oblivious to that I mean, but you know that’s something we learned after the fact so.
Interviewer: Okay, now was there any kind of village nearby or was it just–
We were on the, basically on the south edge of town and the town was right against the shore of
the middle branch of the Mekong River, as I stated earlier, and then we were just south of that
with our airbase or air strip. So you could basically walk out the gate, although we didn’t walk
we’d hitch a ride and go into the village and I did that on several occasions it wasn’t something
that we did on a daily routine but from time to time and that was and oddity, I mean here we are
in a war zone, you walk off the base, you go into the village and mingle with the natives and then
there was a curfew. You had to be gone and back, I can remember on one occasion that I did get
into a little trouble for it, for some reason there was a MACV, the command group in Vietnam,
had a little compound between the base and the village proper. It was a– I don’t know, a villa if
you will, on the river so it was kind of a nice setting and they had a bar there so we went down to
the bar to have a few drinks and spend the evening. Well in the course of the evening I had
wandered away from the bar and I mean it wasn’t– There were no fences, there were no
restrictions, just walked out of the bar and walked down the street into the village and not– You
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know I was oblivious, I didn’t realize that there was a problem or anything and ran into some of
the villagers and they confronted me and you know “What you do?” “I’m out for a walk.” “Oh
okay.” You know and a few people gathered around me, you know just asking you know
“What’s going on?” And “I’m just out for a walk.” And stuff and then I thought “Well I’ve been
here long enough I guess I better go back to the guys.” Well by the time I turned around and
went back the guys had already left and they didn’t know where the heck I was. So I stayed there
for a little bit and pretty quick here the guys came back and “Where the heck were you?” I said
“I just went into the village for a little bit.” “Oh you’re not supposed to do that.” So I got in the
jeep, we went back the base, we were confronted by the military police at that point in time
because the– My sergeant and another fellow were confronted and they said well we had a troop
and you know they’re past curfew and I didn’t even think about a curfew. It’s just the way it was
there and it ended up they wanted to arrest me and everything and the sergeant was able to talk
them out ofit and they took me back to the compound and you know “Don’t do that again.”
Interviewer: Alright, now in some cases villages near bases provided a variety of resources
for soldiers, including potentially women, or bars, or other things. Was that the case there?
That was in town, you’d leave the base, go into town, and there was a little bar district.
Interviewer: Was that considered to be dangerous or you had to be careful what you were
doing there? (47:31)
Never any concern. There was one occasion a guy from the 1st Signal Brigade, a photographer,
came down to photograph Signal Corps personnel and what they encountered during the
monsoons. So he was taking pictures of us while it was raining and it stopped raining and he
stopped taking pictures, I said “Well let’s go to town and get a beer.” You know, so okay so we
hitched a ride, got into town, we were sitting in a bar having a beer and commotion erupted
outside and the people that owned the bar went over and closed the doors and stuff and we’re
sitting there drinking beer and we didn’t think anything of it. Some guy banged on the door, the
guy opened the door, and he’s yelling “VC in the village!” And it’s “Yeah right.” You know and
he had somebody hit him in the head, he had blood on his face and stuff and I thought “I’m not
getting into that.” The guy, the owner, pushed him out, rebarred the door and I thought “I’m safe
in here, I’m just gonna stay. If there’s some fighting that breaks out I’m gonna be in here not out
in the middle of the street.” The commotion escalated, it got noisier and stuff and the owner of
the bar came to us and said “You go now.” You know it’s time for you to get out of here. So
alright fine so me and the guy got up and went out in the street and hitched a ride on a truck and
instead of going to the base we went further into town and we found another bar and sat down
and had another beer and we kind of left the street stuff and went to the other bar and then it’s
like the commotion followed us. So we thought “Well we better get out of here.” So we came out
of the bar and saw an MP in the streets, so we went over to the MP said “Hey look we gotta get
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out here.” And he said “We’ll get you a ride.” You know cause there were military vehicles
passing once, you know every so often. So we stood by him, well while we were standing beside
him Vietnamese, what they call, QC came up beside him and he’s yelling and pointing at us and
speaking in, you know Vietnamese we had no idea what he was doing but in the meantime he’s
trying to get ahold of the MP’s sidearm. And he’s (Stetler makes a gesture like someone pushing
a hand away) gotta be a little more than that, he’s like “get out of here!”.
Interviewer: QC is a Vietnamese policeman basically.
Yes, yes. And they’re pointing at us and saying things, and we never really did find out what
happened, you know? They did, I think, you know some GI offended some barkeeper or
something and then some ruckus broke out or whatever but we got out a deuce and a half and
went back to the base and that was the end of that. So there were—there were incidents. (50:40)
Interviewer: Alright. But uh a lot your exposure really to the war parts was simply the
bombardments of the base, especially early on.
Yup.
Interviewer: Okay, so now how long did you stay then at Vinh Long until you went out?
I was at Vinh Long until June of ‘68
Interviewer: Or ‘69?
Or I’m sorry ‘69 it would be, yeah.
Interviewer: Alright now then you basically extended—
I had extended because it was quiet and I felt that I could come back, so I went home for a 30
day leave in July of ‘69 and in August returned and served out.
Interviewer: Okay. So what was it like to leave Vietnam for a month?
Actually that 30 days you know, as I think back, is just pretty much a blur. I came back home,
met with some of my buddies and friends but a lot of them you know they had gone off to start
careers and jobs and certain things, and here I am home when they’re working, so we didn’t have
that much time to get together. Of course I’d meet some friends at bars and party and carry on a
little bit, and I did the 4th of July, I went up to Saugatuck at that point in time Saugatuck was like
a big party on the 4th of July and there were a lot of… hippie types, if you will, and there was
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some kind of a festival up there then. I went up there just to see what was goin’ on and just—
bikers and different group of people, it was kinda different. (52:31)
Interviewer: Okay. Now the people, people could look at you and know you were in the
military or?
Nope. My hair was shorter than most people but I just put on a tshirt and some levis and went on.
You know, nobody really singled me out or anything.
Interviewer: And when you were going, like flying in the US, were you going in uniform?
Civilian attire.
Interviewer: Okay. And was that recommended to you when you were coming over?
No. It’s a personal choice from based on things that I was hearing and seeing at the time, I guess
there were—there was a little—some comments made, you know, when I left that hey some
things aren’t completely normal over there and of course the only information we got was the
one television we had presented by the military and the stars and stripes newspaper that we got. I
think it was a weekly publication and, you know, they didn’t put all the pictures of the
demonstrations and stuff that were going on. A little bit but they didn’t play it up so I never
really thought too much about it and actually coming home, going through the major airports and
stuff, ya saw some people. Hippie types if you will. Running around and it’s like, eh, I just didn’t
think too much of it at that point and time.
Interviewer: Yeah, they weren’t bothering you any.
No.
Interviewer: Alright, so now you go back again, back to Vietnam, now where do you get
assigned?
Okay. When I went back to Vietnam I had some problems at Vinh Long with the Sergeant, as I
was saying he wasn’t doing his job and that kind of upset me and him both so we were both
reassigned. When I got back at that point because I was returning the First Sergeant said “Where
do you wanna go?” you know, I could go to any one of the bases that we were at and I found out
a friend was at Can Tho, I was familiar with their set up because it was in our relay, so I thought
“Well, I’ll just go down there.” It was a bigger base it was nicer, although I found out that it
wasn’t—I guess that was something that I didn’t really understand but in Vinh Long, as primitive
as it was, we had running water, we could take hot showers daily, you know the mess hall the
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food was halfway decent we only got food poisoned a couple times there. When I went to Can
Tho it was a bigger facility, a better laid out buildings were in better shape and stuff, it did not
have hot and cold running water. There was a water heater there but nobody knew how to
operate it so we just took cold water and dumped it on ourselves out of a slop-sink, so it was
kinda primitive. The mess halls, the food was honestly so bad that you couldn’t eat it a lot of the
time. It was poorly prepared, the utensils and stuff, the Vietnamese ran our kitchens and stuff so
they didn’t wash well or whatever so you, I was in dysentery most of the 8 months I was there.
We tried to find, there were nearby bases where we were allowed to go to eat. One base we could
go to it’d cost us a dime to have a meal but there you could get something good that would stay
in ya, so we kind of did that. Plus on base their was a Vietnamese concession that made their egg
Mcmuffin, bacon egg and cheese ya know? Little sandwiches they’d make for breakfast or you
know, they’d make you a hamburger kind of thing, you know. But again I was short on funds
while I was there so I didn’t have the money to buy meals, so I just kinda supplemented my
eating with that. It’s another thing too that’s kinda odd if you didn’t think about it, but I told you
in Vinh Long we had parties and we had steak. We didn’t have steak at the mess hall, we had
steak if the Sergeant went and negotiated with the cook, then we could have steak. I didn’t
understand, the army didn’t run that right. On my second tour I had to take some radio parts
down to a radio site on Phu Quoc island which was 80 miles off the coast of Vietnam. We had a
radio site there supporting a CB detachment, they were building an airstrip and securing it. There
was also a very large NVA prison camp on that island so they would, there was always concern
somebody would break loose there so the CBs were, as well as construction providing security,
we provided the communications for them. I went down there and spent a couple of days and it
would just shock me, I went into the mess hall and they were having steak. So I did have steak in
one mess hall, but like I said I probably weighed 150-160 lbs most of my time over there on my
second tour. By the time I rotated out I weighed 125 lbs, I was skin and bones I just—because of
the food and stuff.
Interviewer: Did they treat you medically for the dysentery or give you anything?
Didn’t bother to ask. You know as a 20 year old kid, a 21 year old kid, you know you just don’t
think about it. And everybody was doing the same thing you know, and it’s like “This is life, this
is the way it is.” ya know.
Interviewer: So it didn’t get to the point it was debilitating.
No, no. But it, you know, I just like to say if I was hungry and felt, you know, they would go off
base and find a meal someplace else so.
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Interviewer: Alright. Now did you have—I mean before you left in the first part of Vietnam
where you had kind of observed and things seemed to be getting quieter over time, did that
continue where you were at Can Tho?
Yes.
Interviewer: Was it relatively quiet?
It was all, in my whole 8 months, never a mortar attack, never any incoming rounds in Can Tho
it was—it could’ve been state-side and you know and 2, we were free to come and go to the
village. There we had more vehicles that we had access to, we had a Jeep, a Deuce and a Half,
and a ¾ ton truck. You could jump on any one of them, run into the village, get something to eat.
drink, carry on with the natives, come back. It was pretty open, pretty simple.
Interviewer: Okay. Now were you aware at this point of Nixon’s plans of Vietnamization
and all that sort of thing?
Good point. Yes, very much so and actually the war in the Delta region had started to escalate
because we were starting to hear of different outposts where our radio sites were that were
starting come under attack again because the whole Delta region had well kind of calmed down
there toward the end of my first tour, right? And it was pretty quiet when I returned, and only—
I’m gonna say maybe the last couple months there was talk. Now my base didn’t get hit but some
of the other bases were starting to get hit as the Vietnamization was taking place. So it was
noticeable. (1:00:38)
Interviewer: So essentially as the Americans were turning things over to the Vietnamese
the Vietcong come back? Was that the impression or assumption, or is that something you
don’t really know?
Well they—my understanding of this is that apparently there was more of an effort to bring
things down the old Ho Chi Minh Trail and resupply the Vietcong and kind of get ‘em going
again from the North Vietnamese. There was one incident that I heard of and we were never
really sure, we had a civilian contractor from Collins Radio that oversaw our radio equipment
and any major maintenance he was there to perform, we weren’t able to do it.
Interviewer: Okay, I’m gonna pause you right here because this tape is about up. (The
screen fades to black as the tape is replaced.) Alright you were talking about a fellow from
Collins Electric?
Collins Radio.
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Interviewer: Radio, yeah.
Basically there was an incident: he was at one of our radio sites servicing the radio gear, so he
spent a couple days there. It was what place we called Rock Jaw which was down in the southern
end of Vietnam. He was socializing with other civilians one evening so curfews and things didn’t
really pertain to him. He carried a sidearm for his personal protection, he was out like I said
socializing, on his way back he wandered the streets of Rock Jaw and for some reason—maybe
he had a little too much to drink or what—he decided to take a break and he took a seat in front
of a building and rested for a moment and a gentleman came by in black pajamas with a straw
hat carrying an AK-47. And the gentleman confronted him and pointed to his sidearm which was
like a, I think it was a Browning 9mm that he’d had in a shoulder holster, and he threw sign
language basically telling this gentleman he wanted to make a trade: his AK-47 for his sidearm.
And he wasn’t quite sure, I mean the Vietcong didn’t really have uniforms, of course we always
talk about black pajamas and stuff but that was clothing that the people wore, were black
pajamas. So he denied the guy the swap and the guy just turned around and walked away. Well
after he left the civilian gentleman from Collins Radio sat there and just all of a sudden you
could feel the blood draining from his body like he was ready to pass out, he thought “Oh my
god that guy could have been a Vietcong or what and shot me and taken my sidearm!” But of
course he probably didn’t want to start a fracas in the area and draw attention to the fact that he
was there so he just left him be, but he may have dodged a bullet, if you will. So. (1:04:10)
Interviewer: In the time that you were there, were there any problems with drug use on the
bases?
I don’t know that you’d call it a problem. It was prevalent, the plate—the hooch if you will—that
I was billeted in Can Tho there was a bunker right outside the room that I slept in and that
seemed to be a favorite spot for the people that smoked marijuana every evening. And there
were, it’s not like there were one or two, there must have been fifteen, twenty guys up there
smoking dope and you know the cloud just rolled right through the hooch. There were—-a
couple doors down there a couple guys with my outfit had a room, and our officers in charge of
our detachment there every night went there and sat and played pinochle and drank scotch while
the guys sat out the bunker and smoked, so. You know, if it was a problem nobody knew about it
I mean.
Interviewer: So you had what could get labeled as recreational use of things.
Basically, yes.
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Interviewer: But not things that really interfered with people doing their jobs as far as you
could tell.
That, you know, not noticeable. There were rumors and stories that different things said; there
were, in that group of people, of course a couple of guys from our outfit were involved with that
and they had told about one individual and 15-20 guys did get into harder drugs. And when it
came time for him to rotate out he didn’t go straight home. I was told they sidetracked him and
kind of detoxed him before he went back to civilian life, so. But yeah just, you know, some guys
drank, some guys smoked.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. Now did you notice any kind of racial tensions in that time out
there?
The black guys in the bases that I was stationed at—there weren’t that many—there were… in
one group of guys that I was friendly with and we hung out, there was a black guy that was part
of our group. And I can remember in one instance where, you know, we’re sitting outside on the
sandbags talking, listening to music or something, and a couple other black guys walked by and
they said something to him. And it was their slang or what. And you know “What’s the matter?”
“Basically they’re calling me Uncle Tom.” but so there was racial tension but where I was at,
what I was involved with, we really didn’t see that much of it. (1:07:07)
Interviewer: Okay. Alright now I think you had mentioned you wanted to tell a story of
somebody you knew out there?
Well, yeah there was an incident when I was in Vinh Long towards the end of my first tour. I
was the maintenance man at the radio site, I had kind of taken things over, if anything went
wrong go get Stelter, he’ll fix it. And so I basically kept the gear operating. I had trouble with a
piece of equipment—there was a guy in our Northern site Dong Tam that I knew was very well
qualified, he was educated at a higher level, he was a microwave radio repairman technician or
something. There was an additional description at the end of his title because he actually did
detailed maintenance work on equipment. I knew he was there, I knew he had the knowledge. I
asked him to come to our site because I was having trouble with this piece of equipment. He
agreed to do that, he was supposed to be there the morning of the next day and he didn’t come,
didn’t show up and eventually we got a call from the site that they didn’t make it, there had been
an incident on the road between sites. There were the maintenance man, a driver, and then our
officer in charge—like I said he was stationed at Dong Tam. He decided to accompany them to
come down to visit us, I mean it was nothing going on but he thought he ought to see the base
he’s in charge of so he joined the group, they left the base, they were headed down the road if
you will to Vinh Long. They were detained by the MPs, they were told that the road ahead hadn’t
been cleared, he would not advice going; there was some discussion, the officer basically told the
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MP “Look, we’re not a target we’re just a Jeep, so we’ll just go on our way” and it’s like (Stelter
shrugs.) your call. So they took off.
Well, on the way they, as I understand the story there was a 2 ½ ton truck. They came and were
overtaking the 2 ½ ton truck, they were beside it, and apparently a command-detonated mine was
set off. It blew up the deuce and a half and took the back corner out of the Jeep, it wounded the
driver’s right arm, there was the maintenance guy sitting in the back seat he was basically blown
in two, and the officer was sitting in the passenger's seat of the Jeep he was decapitated. So the
next day, or later that day, the engineers brought the Jeep and the remains: rifles, helmets, flak
jackets, personal possessions of the people involved in the incident back to our base and left that
there. And I guess that’s the one thing that, if you will, still bugs me about the war: that I had
asked them to come, they wouldn’t have come if I hadn’t asked, of course they put themselves in
the situation by going down the road that wasn’t cleared and they knew it. Lost their lives, so.
That was a little tough.
Interviewer: Alright. And now, are there other incidents or particular memories or
impressions you have from your time in Vietnam before we bring you back home?
There was another incident: fella was about to leave country because there had been incidents
with other people in the signal corps. We were told that 10 days before you rotate out of country
you will be at headquarters in Long Binh, cause that was considered a pretty safe place to be.
This guy that was from the (sounds like “Rock Jaw”) site decided that, you know, he knew what
the routine was so he purposefully left his rifle in Rock Jaw. Left Rock Jaw to be in Long Binh
10 days before he was to leave, started the clearing process to clear post as they put it, when he
got to supply he didn’t have his rifle and he was “Gee, I forgot my rifle.” They said “Well, that’s
not something we can just have somebody hand to somebody, that’s a very personal possession.
You need to get it.” so he agreed to go back to Rock Jaw. Well what we did then is you could get
a helicopter ride, a fixed-wing aircraft, something and just fly from base to base and hop around.
Well he decided he was—he had this in mind that he would drop off at the various 327 Signal
Company detachments and visit. He stopped by our detachment in Can Tho, which we were like
the last leg of his trip on let’s say for instance on Wednesday. Spent the night with us, Thursday
he left for Rock Jaw, Friday I left for Rock Jaw to take some supplies down there it was, I don’t
know 40 or 50 mile ride, so on the way down we pass by the air field and lookin’ out in the field
and there’s people standing the rice paddies out there, and the tail of a C1-23 cargo plane
sticking up out of the rice paddy. I’ve got a picture of it. And I went on to the base and I said
“Well, where’s this gentleman?” and they said “You see the plane?” and I said “Yeah I did.”
They said, “Well he was on that plane.” So he was like, you know, 2-3 days from leaving
country and the plane just crashed. I mean it wasn’t like it was shot out of the air there was
something mechanical that went wrong. It went into a steep climb, one of the engines crapped
out, it rotated nose down into the ground, accordioned into the rice patty and he lost his life just
days before he was supposed to go home, so that was kind of a tough incident, but. (1:14:10)
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Interviewer: Alright. Now, so did you go to the base then with ten days then you go back to
Long Bonh?
Yes I did.
Interviewer: Okay. And so how did you spend those last 10 days?
Sittin’ around twiddling your thumbs. They really don’t—there’s no need to pull any details or
anything, the other guys are pulling the details and stuff. You have to go to finance and go to
supply and various other places and clear your records, make sure you’ve turned in everything
you’re supposed to turn in. Weapons, what have you, your great and make sure you don’t owe
anybody anything. Clear personnel and that your records are straight, so I find out what medals
you’re due and stuff, campaign ribbons or whatever til all that gets worked out and you just
basically sit around. Visit with the other troops that are there and make plans for home. (1:15:11)
Interviewer: Okay. And then where did you fly out of?
Flew out of Benwire base as I came in. That was the thing, I flew in a commercial air flight back
to the world if you will. That’s interesting too—we didn’t mention this but when I returned to
Vietnam for my second tour I left initially from Oakland the first time, and then the second time
because I was East of the Mississippi I left out of Fort Dix. When I went to Fort Dix they didn’t
have a commercial flight available, I ended up on a air force super-strato C1-41 I think it was.
Cargo plane with jump seats and here I am going on my return trip to Vietnam in a cargo plane.
It was an adventurous trip: you sat with your knees interlocked, you had to crawl over each
other, they put a big container on the plane one side of the container was the restroom the other
side was your meals. So it was an adventure.
Interviewer: Alright. And then once you take off on the way home is there any kind of
celebration as you get out of Vietnamese airspace?
Oh, everybody on the plane yells hooray and stuff, there’s a lot of excitement and feel-good kind
of atmosphere and too at the same time most of the people on the flight are also gonna be
discharged from the service when they arrive in Oakland, so there was some excitement about
that. Happened to be April 1st and then part of the discharge process we were in a large room, a
person came to the podium explaining the procedures that we were gonna follow and said “Oh
by the way, we’re not gonna discharge anymore people today this is it, we’re done.” and he starts
to turn and walks away from the podium. And then he does an about-face and come back “All
right, April Fools.” It’s like yeah, that’s not a good joke, you know? (Stelter laughs.)
�Stelter, LeeRoy
Interviewer: Yeah.
But then we continued with the discharge process and got out of there.
Interviewer: Okay. So you’re out of the army now at this point? Did they discharge you?
Right. You’re in dress when we left, I was in jungle fatigues, and then when you arrive Oakland
then they issue you a Class A uniform so you’re discharged in a dress uniform. Got that uniform
when I left the base, got a cab, went to a hotel and the first thing I did was put civilian attire on.
There were plenty of stories floating around about the possibility of being confronted by
protestors, what have you, people being spit upon, stuff like that. I didn’t wanna have anything to
do with any of that, I just get the military stuff hopefully. It's kinda let my hair grow out a little
bit and… something like that and just put civilian attire on and went to the airport Oakland.
Actually I was flew home with a friend to his home in Washington and then made it back to
Michigan from there.
Interviewer: Alright.
But that was the idea, get rid of the military stuff immediately. I don’t have anything to do with
this.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you get back home in April, 1970. Now what do you do?
Basically went back to work. Went back to the same company I worked at, I mean I had been
short on money all this time. You know, wanted to get a car, or course lived at home initially. It
was just to try and work my way back into the civilian life. I ended up going to college which
was kind of an extension of my being a microwave radio repairmen. The people that were
involved in that training—a lot of those guys were drafted initially and then decided to enlist
because they could go to radio school. Lotta ‘em had some college level education so that was
the talk of the day, you know. “What are you gonna do when you get back?” “Well, go to
college.” There was a delay, I got a job in a factory making record players again and went to
school and basically that was another thing that kind of helped me get back into things. There
were a lot of other Vietnam vets that were going to Lake Michigan Community College here. We
formed a little social group and we kinda had each other to lean on if you will, and we better
understood each other than some little high school kid. There was a difference—just a total
different experience. (1:20:35)
Interviewer: Yeah. And did you have any kinda trouble transitioning back into being a
civilian?
�Stelter, LeeRoy
I didn’t think so. But talk to my wife, there was problems.
Interviewer: Now were you married when you were in Vietnam? Or did you get married
afterward?
I married when I got home. I got home in ‘70 and married in ‘72. I met my wife in ‘70 so her and
I were dating within I’m gonna say a few months of my arrival back here so… she kinda helped
me get back to some degree of normalcy, so.
Interviewer: And then what kind of career did you go into?
Actually went to LMC and transferred to Western Michigan University and ended up with a
degree in Industrial Engineering. Worked in manufacturing for probably 30-35 years, so.
Interviewer: Alright. Now if you look back on the time that you spent in the service, how do
you think that affected you or what did you take out of it?
I… you know it’s interesting I’m finding out now, 50 years later, that it affected me more than I
thought. But it was kind of a struggle, the whole thing. Getting back and in how I lived my life
and how I behaved was kind of set up by some of my—pretty much my military experiences. It
kinda turned me into a certain type of person or what and I kinda worked through it. I thought I
did a pretty good job.
Interviewer: Okay. Were there positives that you took out of it?
Well… The reason I went in was to get the training to get into electronics, my initial attempt in
college my thought was that I was gonna be an electrical engineer, I ran into an electrical
engineer at LMC and after discussing with him what an electrical engineer’s career was like I
decided to become an industrial engineer. It probably—like I said the people that were in
microwave radio training there were high level people than the other folks in the army. We had
some folks that tried to become microwave radio repairmen but they just didn’t have the
necessary skills and abilities to carry through the training. And so they kinda washed out. So it
was a different group of people who were microwave radio repairmen, I’ll say that.
Interviewer: Alright well the whole thing makes for pretty good story, so thank you for
taking the time to share it today.
Certainly. (1:23:45)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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StelterL2166V
Creator
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Stelter, LeeRoy
Date
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2017-10
Title
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Stelter, LeeRoy (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
LeeRoy Stelter was born April 7th, 1948 in Coloma, Michigan where he grew up and stayed until transferring his senior year from Coloma High School to St. Joseph High School. He graduated in 1966 and immediately went to work in a factory making record players. Stelter enlisted in the military after his cousin suggested it might help his career, taking an interest in the potential for a background in electronics as a microwave radio repairman. He started basic training in 1967 in Fort Knox, Kentucky and says he had no trouble adjusting to the army because his parents raised him to do as he was told. Two months later Stelter was flown to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey to begin his training as a microwave radio repairman learning basic electronics, how to operate gear, and solid state equipment. In 1968, Stelter recalled watching other groups perform drills preparing them for evacuations and riots in the wake of several political events. Stelter finished training at Fort Monmouth in May. He was deployed to Vietnam after a 30 day leave, assigned to the 327th Signal Company in Long Binh. After several months he was then reassigned to Vinh Long to replace a soldier who was lost in a mortar attack. Vinh Long was part of a radio relay set up by the signal company between Dong Tam and Can Tho, and Stelter recalled that it “was under attack every night…it was like the 4th of July, the whole place was incoming rounds, outgoing mortar fire” for three or four months, gradually deescalating. Stelter stayed at Vinh Long until June 1969 after which he took a 30 day leave before returning to Vietnam for a second time and being assigned to Can Tho. In all 8 months of his second term, he never heard any mortars or incoming rounds and was free to come and go from the village. In April 1970, Stelter returned home from Vietnam on a commercial flight and went back to work at the same factory he had as a teenager, making record players. In 1972, he married his wife who he said helped him return to some degree of normalcy. He attended Lake Michigan College before transferring to Western Michigan University and obtaining a degree in Industrial Engineering, after which he worked in manufacturing for the next 35 years.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Lest We Forget
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
Type
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Moving Image
Text
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5e993c43c71c52c1f3f7dc06846d5aac.mp4
9359e18425cdd64ec46492111f8787df
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8573335095b62a35865987b46551b0a8.pdf
091927f32eb1317b0abde17d28d2a8ac
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Chuck Stark
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: We are talking today with Chuck Stark of North Muskegon, Michigan, and
the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Alright, start us off with the easy stuff. Where and when were you born?
Veteran: I was born in 1948 in Muskegon, Michigan.
Interviewer: Okay. And did you grow up there?
Veteran: I did.
Interviewer: Okay. And what was your family doing for a living then?
Veteran: My father was a machinist at Continental Motors and mom was the housewife.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: As happened during that time period.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, as you—you were born in ’48 and so you are still in high school
when Vietnam starts to ramp up—
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: --in ’65. Did you pay much attention to that before you went in the service?
�2
Veteran: I did. I did. I have always been very active in governmental affairs and just very
interested in that whole field.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you graduate from high school?
Veteran: I did. 1966 from Muskegon High School—Muskegon Senior High.
Interviewer: Okay. And what did you do after you got out of school?
Veteran: I did a number of things. I had—I have always enjoyed learning things, so I was a
Brunswick pin setter mechanic, I did bartending, I did—worked at Continental Motors, the same
place that made military equipment. So, a number of things.
Interviewer: Alright. Did you consider going to college at that point?
Veteran: I had. It was going to be expensive, and it would have taken me a couple years to get
some cash together, but yes, I had planned on—I had no idea what I was going to do. But yes.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, in the meantime, did you figure that sooner or later you were
going to get drafted? (00:02:23)
Veteran: There was that possibility. I knew that I had some choices. I decided to stay and if it
happened, it happened.
Interviewer: Alright. So, when did you wind up entering the service?
Veteran: I went in…I believe it was in April of ’68.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, once you go in—now, where do they send you for basic
training?
�3
Veteran: I was in basic training at Fort Knox. And then AIT, which is Advanced Individual
Training.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Well, I want to talk a little bit about some of that. I guess,
before you go to basic training, one of the things you get is a draft physical. Do you
remember taking a physical when you went in, or ahead of time?
Veteran: I do, somewhat.
Interviewer: Okay. And do you remember, did it seem to be something that was very
serious or pretty cursory or…?
Veteran: I thought it was pretty cursory. And they didn’t even discover some of the things that I
have.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Pretty obvious things.
Interviewer: Alright. So, if you had a, you know, a more alert doctor at home, you might
have gotten deferred for some reason or other?
Veteran: There would have been a possibility of that.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were doing the physical, did you notice anybody trying
to game the system or find ways to…?
Veteran: There was all kinds of talk when I went down and for that physical. And people were,
even on the bus ride, were talking about gaming the system.
Interviewer: Do you remember any ideas they had about how they could do that?
�4
Veteran: Not right off hand.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you do that but then you go down to Fort Knox, Kentucky
for your basic training.
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: What kind of reception do you get when you arrive there?
Veteran: I was not used to the…that type of screaming and yelling and hollering and basically
bullying. I understand why they maybe thought they had to do it, but…
Interviewer: So, it was a shock when you got there?
Veteran: Very much so. It was definitely a cultural shock. (00:04:29)
Interviewer: Okay. Were you in good physical shape when you went down there?
Veteran: I was probably in fairly decent shape. I used to hike and canoe and that type of thing
so…
Interviewer: Okay. And then, how easy or hard was it for you to kind of adjust to life in
bootcamp? Or did you not really?
Veteran: I just—I…Yeah, I don’t know that I ever really adjusted to it because…Yeah, I don’t
know that I ever adjusted to it.
Interviewer: But you did get through it.
Veteran: I never treated people that way when I was in the service. So…You know, I always
tried to do it with respect. Obviously, there has to be some authority. And I guess I did that quite
well, but I never treated people with disrespect.
�5
Interviewer: Right. Okay. But did you kind of just go with the flow and do what they told
you?
Veteran: Yes, I did.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And how long was the basic training?
Veteran: I believe it was 8 weeks.
Interviewer: Okay. And then, was that—do you remember anything about the people who
were your instructors? Had some of them been to Vietnam by then? Or do you not know?
Veteran: I guess I didn’t know at the time.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, your—did you notice any of them being not much older than you
were? Like some of the junior instructors?
Veteran: No, they were pretty much…I mean, I am a teenager still at the time and so none of
them were at that point in time.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you go on now. Where do you go for advanced training
then?
Veteran: I stayed at Fort Knox.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And advanced training was for recon. And for anybody that doesn’t know what recon
is, it’s look without being seen, hear without being heard, and run without being caught. So, it’s
out there scouting. (00:06:27)
Interviewer: Okay.
�6
Veteran: So…
Interviewer Because Fort Knox is primarily an armor school.
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay. And so…but you weren’t using—you weren’t riding around in tanks or
things like that at that point?
Veteran: At that point, no.
Interviewer: Alright. And the people who were training you to do the recon, were these
people who had field experience? Or did you—they not tell you?
Veteran: There was no discussion about that.
Interviewer: Does any of it seem to have been geared toward Vietnam?
Veteran: I am sure it all was. I am sure it all was. I can’t see—in going back, I don’t know about
World War 2, but I know about the stuff in recon, and it is applicable in all wars.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so it’s kind of a core skillset or whatever that you learn that’s
helpful.
Veteran: Absolutely.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, is that another 8 weeks?
Veteran: I believe it was.
Interviewer: Okay. And then where do you go next?
�7
Veteran: Well, I went from there. I was selected to go to the Non-Commissioned Officers’
Academy. And—
Interviewer: And where do they do that?
Veteran: That was at Fort Knox also.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And at this point in time, there was more—it was geared more to armored and did a lot
with armored vehicles and stuff at that point in time. And I…seems to me—I don’t know for
sure—it could have been 12 weeks. There’s some spots in there that are a little blank.
Interviewer: Yeah. But that is about right for an NCO academy so that would be consistent
with what the infantry people did—
Veteran: I think so.
Interviewer: --at Fort Benning. Okay. So, what—were you basically—were you working
with tanks or armored personnel carriers or both? (00:08:23)
Veteran: Both of them. We were working with the Sheridan Tank, also. And they did that also in
the AIT, worked with the Sheridan Tank. That was a particular one that had both conventional
rounds, and the case actually was burnt up during the firing, so they didn’t have to worry about
the case—the metallic cases and how to get rid of them. And it also fired Shillelagh Missiles. So,
we—right out of the same tube.
Interviewer: Now, did it have an anti-personnel round? I mean, like a beehive round or
something like that?
Veteran: Yes, they had all types of rounds.
�8
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And the Sheridan was—it had like an aluminum hull or
something? It’s a lightweight tank? Or that—you didn’t really use that. Did you not use
those yourself in Vietnam?
Veteran: No, did not use those ourselves.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: But they were a composite material, so…In fact, those vehicles, if there was any
damage to the vehicle, it had to be re-painted immediately with some special paints so they
would know if anybody was playing with the—scraping some scrapings and…So…. They had to
be taken care of immediately, any damage.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Within hours.
Interviewer: Doesn’t sound like a great thing to have in a war in the tropics but okay.
Alright. But then you also worked with armored personnel carriers…
Veteran: Right. [M]113 primarily. And then I did training, instructing for the 114 and the 113.
Interviewer: Okay. The 114s are the command version or…? (00:10:17)
Veteran: It’s the lower version, the super low profile one.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Both vehicles were supposed to be amphibious. Didn’t work real well so it was a court
martial offense to try that stuff. They had a board that came out in the front and that was
�9
supposed to be the splashboard to keep the water from coming up and over the top and inside.
But didn’t work real well.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, you are doing that. Now, you’re getting kind of down toward
the end of 1968 at this point.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: By the time that you finish all of that, do you get a leave to go home for the
holidays and then off to Vietnam? Or what do they do with you?
Veteran: Yeah. There was a leave to go home. And then sent over.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, what was it like to go home at that point? You have been training,
you are gearing up for Vietnam. And you’ve been paying some attention—I mean, the war
has been going on, it’s been pretty ugly and so forth. So, what was that like for you to be
back home and knowing you were heading to Vietnam next?
Veteran: I can actually remember knowing that I had to project confidence for the family
members back home.
Interviewer: Now, had your father been in World War 2 or are you the wrong generation
for that?
Veteran: No. No, he was not. He was actually at this factory that was doing the tank engines.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And he was a key person there. So, he was not drafted.
�10
Interviewer: Okay. So, how did your parents feel about your being in the service and going
to Vietnam? (00:12:11)
Veteran: Completely freaked. You know, both parents very, very gentle; very, verv loving souls.
But just would be designed, you know…Anybody would have to describe them, it would be very
gentle and a really beautiful human being. Humanity.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So now, what’s the process to get you to Vietnam? Your leave
is up, now what do you do?
Veteran: Went to California. Was there for a short period of time and then hopped on a big plane
and flew to Alaska. We overnighted in Alaska and flew the next day. It is interesting because I
just was looking for some things and I found a card that I wrote to my mom and dad during that
flight. And there’s my appreciation for them, so incredibly deep, because they raised me right.
And so, I found it yesterday.
Interviewer: Wow. Alright. And now, did you go land some place else before you got to
Vietnam? Did you go to Japan or…?
Veteran: No, just straight—no, directly to Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay. Do you remember where you landed in Vietnam? Was it near Saigon?
Veteran: Tan Son Nhut. Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Tan Son Nhut Airport, Saigon. Okay. And at this point, did you know
what unit you were joining?
Veteran: No idea.
Interviewer: Okay.
�11
Veteran: They put you in a group and they just start—it’s like indoctrination into the country to
get you used to some, you know, temperatures and just a whole bunch of stuff. And then it was
just a few days later, it was probably 5 or 6 days later, and then they said, “Poof! You are going
to D Troop, 17th Cav. You are going to be assistant platoon sergeant. And oh, by the way, there
is some—”
Interviewer: Well, before we get there, I just wanted to fill in a couple other details.
(00:14:46)
Veteran: Oh, okay.
Interviewer: Because this was a good piece of the story that we have coming.
Veteran: Sure.
Interviewer: Okay. What was your first impression of Vietnam when you landed?
Veteran: Extremely hot. Extremely dusty. It was not the monsoon season yet. And it was
extremely dusty. And a lot of activity. A lot of high fractured energy. It was just on the edge.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you land at Tan Son Nhut. Now, did they move you to one of the
other bases in the area for your orientation?
Veteran: No. Well—
Interviewer: Or do you think you just stayed right—
Veteran: Well, no, it was the…Yes, it had to have been. I don’t remember.
Interviewer: Because there’s large bases at Long Binh and Bien Hoa. And—
Veteran: I had been to both of them.
�12
Interviewer: Okay. And then there are also some divisional bases that weren’t too far
away.
Veteran: I was at Long Binh...
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: …and Bien Hoa, both.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, and then I guess as you are kind of—do you remember anything
about kind of going back and forth between them? Or what the place looked like,
generally?
Veteran: No, it is just a lot of sandbags, a lot of bunkers. When you see those perimeters and you
see the barbed wire, and you see nothing outside the barbed wire. There is not a blade of grass
growing and it’s quite a large depth to the perimeters. You see a lot of people running around.
You see a lot of activities in and out. (00:16:38)
Interviewer: Okay, so it’s still kind of a blur in some ways. A lot of that going on.
Veteran: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Alright. So, you get—you’re assigned, okay, D Troop, 17th Cavalry. And what
kind of unit was that?
Veteran: That was an A cav vehicle—armored cav vehicle. So, unusual. There’s a lot of…lot of
times, the recon is with a grunt outfit. This particular one was our vehicle of choice, was an
armored cav vehicle, was a 113 vehicle. And crew of 5. And I was in the cupola. I was the
commander of the vehicle. And crew of 5.
�13
Interviewer: Okay. You said—now, they gave you an assignment and then they gave you
some specific instructions.
Veteran: Yeah. Specific instructions were there is some behavior that needs to be modified.
These guys are outside the box, and they parade body parts around on the vehicles and parade
body parts out the firebases that they go to. And if there is fire fights, they decorate the facilities
or the vehicles with body parts. I found it horrifying. I still do.
Interviewer: So, what did you do when you joined the unit? (00:18:15)
Veteran: Well, I said—you know, I went there. I said, “Guys, I am it and I have been assigned to
this particular unit with specific instructions. Don’t kill the messenger. This behavior is going to
stop. And this is what I have been assigned to so don’t kill the messenger.”
Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you joined the unit, do you report to a company area on a
base first and then get assigned by somebody? Or how did that work?
Veteran: It was for a short period of time. And I met the platoon leader. And like I said, it was a
very small unit. And…
Interviewer: About how many men in the platoon?
Veteran: There was 39 guys in this unit.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And…
Interviewer: And how many vehicles did they have normally?
�14
Veteran: We had about 6. There were probably 8 vehicles there, but we had 6 that were probably
running so that would be, you know, 30 guys.
Interviewer: Yeah. So, 5 to a vehicle.
Veteran: Yeah, 30 guys. You know, and there’s some other people, support and platoon leader,
got the motor pool.
Interviewer: Got mechanics or whatever.
Veteran: Yeah, whatever. You know that type of thing. But we had generally about 6 vehicles.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, what area were you operating in?
Veteran: Well, we were assigned to—the D Troop, 17th Cav—was assigned to the 199th light
separate brigade, which their mission was reactionary force. Where stuff was happening, got
dumped in.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:20:12)
Veteran: And we were assigned to them.
Interviewer: Alright. And what—were they operating in the III Corps area around Saigon
or were they…?
Veteran: Around Saigon, III, just wherever it happened. Wherever it happened. I did get to see,
going through Saigon—so, traveling in and out back to the—back to our base back there. So, I
got to go through Saigon on a number of occasions, which was really interesting. It’s like steroid
or New York on—New York or Chicago—on steroids. And they would have all these little
motorbikes running through. And they would have—the most we ever saw were 5 human beings
clinging on a moped, going through traffic, in and out of traffic. It was just insane. And the
�15
vendors, the food vendors, sometimes they had newspaper underneath their food. Other times it
was just laid on the blacktop. And the stench of going through there with this food and…It was
completely intense. The one thing I tried to do—I like to make light at times—there was a Shell
gas station, and I had a Shell credit card. I tried to make a purchase so that I could have the
receipt, but they declined it, for me to make the purchase. But that was one of the fun things in
there.
Interviewer: Because normally, the military personnel wouldn’t go into Saigon proper. But
you would have orders at certain points to drive through it?
Veteran: We had to go through, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, we were just going through.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did your—did the 199th have a base camp in a particular place?
I mean, were they at Long Binh or one of the bases?
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yes. Correct. (00:22:14)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And it was there and then we would go out and we would go out to these firebases. The
firebases loved to have us come in. They would have a horseshoe shaped impound for us to fit in
and that was made out of multiple layers of sandbag. And we’d come right up to the top level of
the deck so that the guns were just above it. The reason they loved to have us come out and they
�16
would cater to us is the fire support. You know, the M-50 and the two M-60s and grenade
launcher. And they loved that.
Interviewer: Okay. And so, if they had that extra fire power, were they less likely to get hit
if…at least not—
Veteran: Yeah. I was, you know…But again, the reason that the sandbags were there is because
we were bullet magnets, and RPGs.
Interviewer: Yeah. Because an RPG could go right through an M-113.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Had one one time at a firebase. And a small skirmish started and the—it was
probably…I am in the queue below and ducked down but it was probably about 5 feet over the
top of my head. The thing—and in situations like that, there is so much energy. There is—I
mean, when that stuff starts happening, that sense of humor pops out of the dumbest things. And
I just remember, you know, just screaming to the guys. I said, “You see that one? It said made in
Japan stamped on it!” You know? And everybody completely cracks up, which you are still in a
firefight. And it’s just…that kind of thing, I mean, that’s what that stress…that’s the only way it
can come out, at just dumb things. (00:24:15)
Interviewer: Now, when you went out to firebases, you’ve got armored personnel carriers.
So, you are driving to these, right?
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah, you are not going around in helicopters.
�17
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: Or anything else like that. Okay. How common was it for the roads to have
mines or IEDs or things like that in them?
Veteran: We were on the main highways. Much of the time, except when we would get out to
these outlying areas, and they were there. You know, we had the one vehicle that got hit, you
know.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then typically, what—if you are given—would you have
patrols or actions that would just last a day or so? Or would you be out in the field with a
group for an extended period of time?
Veteran: We could be out in the field an extended period of time. We would be a day activity.
Sometimes it was night ambushes, sometimes it was day setups. And when we are out there then,
we were doing recon out of those places, so we weren’t just parked. We weren’t just parked
someplace. We are out, we are doing recon.
Interviewer: Okay. Now when you are doing the recon, are you doing that on foot the way
you were trained to do it or are you going recon with the vehicles?
Veteran: You’d go out to someplace and maybe it gets parked and maybe there is 4 vehicles and
maybe 1 vehicle dismounts. Maybe 2 vehicles dismount. The other is there, and they are close
enough that they can get to you within a few minutes to give you support. So, it just…whatever
was presented to us.
Interviewer: Alright. So, if you are out there and you are actually sort of doing recon, then
how does that work? Physically, what are you doing? (00:26:03)
�18
Veteran: You are out there to see what type of activity. You are out there…you are out there, and
the recon may be, again, maybe it’s an ambush. Maybe you have got ambush set up. Day or
night. And activities on trails. We are going out to see what type of…We had—you know, we
have been out trying to get through triple canopy. Triple canopy is just unbelievable. It’s
impenetrable, basically. So, they would send us out to see if we can bust through in certain spots
and... But you are looking for activities. You are looking for…and you are looking for
fortifications, you are looking for tunnels, you are looking for any type of activity.
Interviewer: Okay. Were you operating in areas that had a lot of tunnels under them? Or
did certain sectors?
Veteran: Yeah, you don’t know. Because until you found them. But yes, there was, and we found
a number of them. And yeah.
Interviewer: And when you find them, were they usually unoccupied? Or…?
Veteran: Unknown. But you just start, and you stay there. You maybe mark it and maybe they
bring out some troops and maybe they start bringing tunnel rats in. Maybe they just say, “Have
fun.” You know? So, you are using C-4 and just devastating sections of them.
Interviewer: Okay. So, your unit didn’t have tunnel rats with them. You didn’t have guys
who went in?
Veteran: The 199th did but ours didn’t.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, your job was just to go out and find what was out there?
Veteran: Absolutely.
Interviewer: And then it becomes somebody else’s problem.
�19
Veteran: And yeah, sometimes we dealt with it and sometimes we didn’t.
Interviewer: Okay. And how common was it to actually get into a fire fight or run into the
enemy when you are out on one of these patrols? (00:28:16)
Veteran: It’s…It depends on the area, depends on what we were doing. If we’re running roads,
there would be a little bit of skirmish periodically. You just never knew. It wasn’t 100% of the
time, but you didn’t know. I mean…
Interviewer: Okay. Now, were you operating in areas that had a civilian population in
them?
Veteran: Absolutely.
Interviewer: Alright. And what kind of impression did you have of the Vietnamese
civilians?
Veteran: I always—you know, and I did not have any problems with them. But I knew that when
you get into villages, that there is sometimes sleepers that are in these villages. I always tried to
treat with respect. And it was very hard for me to watch when some of the infantry guys would
go out and interrogate and how these people were treated. It was very difficult for me to watch. I
kept quiet. We would discuss things afterwards. But it was heart wrenching for me.
Interviewer: Now, would the infantry—
Veteran: Inner pain.
Interviewer: Yeah. And would these guys have Vietnamese interpreters with them or—
Veteran: Yes. Absolutely.
�20
Interviewer: Alright. Now, they were—when things were kind of quieter or calmer and so
forth, would the civilians be trying to sell things to you or that kind…?
Veteran: Yeah, a lot of times the places that we were at, we were parked right next to—some of
these civilians would even be inside a firebase. So, I spoke very, very, very little Vietnamese. I
still remember some of it. And but I spoke very little of it. It was difficult. I knew the ones that
spoke English. And we would have communications, we would have discussions. (00:30:36)
Interviewer: Okay. Because there were reports that certainly—particularly in the armored
cavalry units like this and so forth, you are driving along, people would come up and they
try to sell you things or you would encounter prostitutes or things like that.
Veteran: One of the things that surprised me was a young man came up, probably 10 or 11,
something like that. And just, you know, he had a pillowcase and he said, “GI want to buy? GI
want to buy pot?” You know? And I was like, “No thank you.” But it was—I used this young
man later because I really, really like coconut. And they eat their coconut completely different.
It’s green and they cut it open and it’s still—it’s like liquified jello inside. It’s not coconut that I
am used to.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And I—that…My tastes, my textures? That just didn’t fit at all. I said, “Number 10.
Number 10.” They rate everything; number 1 or number 10. He said, “Number 10, number 10.”
So, I said, “Go get me some…” You know? And we tried this multiple, multiple times. One day
when I was out, I actually found a piece of the brown coconut shell with the hair still attached to
it. I stuck it in my pocket, and I get back. Next time he is there, I said, “Go buy me coconut.
Number 1.” He goes, “Number 10. Number—” I said, “No, number 1. Number 1.” He said,
�21
“Number 10.” I said, “Go get me some number 10 coconut.” And he came back with a
pillowcase of coconut. So, at that point in time it was great. But they did sell things. They also
enjoyed—we would toss them stuff. But the tropical bars? They hated them. And many times,
they would throw them back at the vehicle when we were driving.
Interviewer: Can you explain what a tropical bar was? (00:32:41)
Veteran: A tropical bar was a treat, but it was just this horrid conglomeration that was just…And
it was the tropical bar because you could have it in 120-degree temperature and it wouldn’t melt.
Interviewer: Okay. Was it some kind of chocolate?
Veteran: Yeah, there was—I think so. But it was just horrid. I mean, I don’t know anybody that
ever enjoyed a tropical bar.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, would you carry stuff along in your vehicle, sort of food of your
own choice, or just a lot of C-rations? Or…?
Veteran: C-rations. And my coconut.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And one day we had one where we were out—actually, cutting trail—and there was a
banana tree. And we were in a fairly secure situation, had other vehicles, and I just said, “You
know, hold up. We are going to…” So, I went over. We pulled up underneath this thing and there
was a large bunch of bananas that was probably I am guessing about four and a half to five feet
tall. Just this huge, gorgeous bunch of bananas. Pulled up underneath and I grabbed the machete,
and I am whacking away at this thing and it just fell. It dropped on the deck. I was still
supporting it, trying not to smash anything. The whole thing was loaded with a fire ant nest.
�22
Interviewer: Oh…
Veteran: So, the guys weren’t real happy with me. Everybody is swatting and I was just
completely stung up and it was like, “No. No more bananas.”
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so you mentioned being at the camp sometimes and they might
get attacked. Would the attacks be mortar attacks or— (00:34:33)
Veteran: Mortar attacks. Start with mortar attacks, yeah. Mostly mortar attacks. Just with that
kind of firepower that we had sitting here, they were not about to start coming in through that
empty…
Interviewer: Yeah. Or they might take a few RPG shots and then go away?
Veteran: Absolutely.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know, it was difficult because in the one situation, the fire—I think it was Firebase
Sue that we were at—there was some hooches with families living in them right outside. And it
was right in my fire lane, you know, so I had to be very, very, very careful. But you never knew.
And everybody is just like just don’t worry about it, just mow it down, but you never knew if
they were informants or part of it or anything like that. So, nobody was coming over the wire, so
I didn’t have to worry about it. But you always felt like—and in one situation, I just remember
hearing people crying. Just sobbing intensely. You know, across this little bit of open area. You
know, just because they were so terrified because it was not in a fire lane so…You know, it
wasn’t that anybody was hit but just the terrified people. So…
Interviewer: Alright.
�23
Veteran: That stuff was so hard to deal with. Just…You know…
Interviewer: Now, did you have any kind of orders or instructions about how you were
supposed to treat or deal with the civilians, or did you just make stuff up? (00:36:24)
Veteran: There were…There were situations. There was one…we had been out, and we had been
running some trails and stuff, some roads, and I spotted some area that had fortification in it. It
was basically a small bunker, and it was right on the edge of a waterway. And we had sampans
going up and down in that all the time. And when we were approaching it that one day, a sampan
took off. And it just like started scooting. We couldn’t even begin to catch up to it because we
were in some real thick stuff. So, I just made a report. And the next day, they said, “Okay, go out
there and check it out. If it’s fortification, it’s yours. Go play.” And so, when out and going out
there. But on the way back that day, we ended up with a blown head gasket on our vehicle. So, I
just said, “Okay, we are deadlined.” Told the guys, I said, “Put in an extra couple 5 gallons of
water in just in case we have to move it,” because it was leaking. And I said—and I selected
another vehicle and another crew— “You guys go out there.” Gave them the locations. And they
went out. They were out there probably about three and a half, four clicks out. Something like
that. And all of a sudden, you just got his—you know? They got hit in an ambush and just as you
are approaching that area, it was through a small village. There’s probably 5 or 6 huts just along
the edge of the road. And they got hit. So, I just said, “Light it up. Head gasket or not.” We went
out there and I got out there right away. (00:38:34)
Veteran: And I called in, I secured the area. And then I called in medevac. We had a couple guys
that were injured. None of our guys but they always would send out 8, 9, 10, whatever they could
load on top of the 8 cav, infantry guys to go out. So, they are out there. We have got it secured.
Medevac is coming in, and the platoon leader came out. And he just said, “We are going to teach
�24
these pricks a lesson.” He said, “Shoot anything that moves. I don’t care what it is. Anything that
moves, shoot it.” And I am like wow. I am not used to this. Never happened in my family back
home. Never happened in my circle. So, lo and behold, probably 15 minutes later, Papasan, who
I thought was really old, me being a teenager at the time. He was probably in his late 30s, maybe
even 40s, but I am thinking he’s ancient. Came out and walked over to the well—just a few short
feet over to the well—and grabbed the bucket sitting there and poured some into a pot that he
had and went back in the hooch. I didn’t fire. At this point in time, I was up for court-martial.
And I just remembered the thing that came out of me at the time was do whatever you need to
do, because I can live with myself. And so, fortunately, this had happened just shortly before my
exiting the country.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:40:42)
Veteran: So, things never progressed to that point. And said, “I don’t care.”
Interviewer: Now in general, was this the same platoon leader that you had started with?
Or had he—
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Same one.
Interviewer: And did you—what kind of impression did you have of him, generally?
Veteran: Lieutenant Kim…nobody ever gave him any grief because Lieutenant Kim was actually
a sumo wrestler.
Interviewer: Okay…
�25
Veteran: Okay. I mean, his neck came right straight. He physically was a sumo wrestler and did
that. And so, nobody ever gave him any grief. Nobody ever gave him any back talk. So, yeah, it
was like oh, this ought to go over well. But the situation was is that it did resolve itself but—and
it never really came back up again until on—just a few years ago. And I am talking time frame. I
can’t tell you…
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran…Three years, maybe? I was at Battle Creek at the VA. And they were evaluating to see
where I was at. And this was the psychiatrist, who was actually an officer. And asked me, he said
“I know that you apparently didn’t have a lot of good things to say about your time in the Army.”
And I said, “I did not.” He said, “Wasn’t there one single incident that maybe brought you a little
bit of happiness?” And it didn’t take me more than a couple seconds to say, “You know, actually
there was.” And I reiterated that story to him. (00:42:35)
Veteran: And then he said, “Well, I understand that you think that you did something really
good. In your heart, you believe that you did something that was great.” I said, “Actually, yes. I
will agree with that 100%.” He said, “I have to tell you I disagree.” He said, “You taught your
guys that they could disobey a direct order. You taught them that.” And I said, “I didn’t think it
was illegal.” He said, “You taught them that.” And I had a large discussion with him. And I
reiterated some of the things. And I said that “I even watched when Lieutenant Calley—the My
Lai Incident—I actually stayed home and watched that when it was on CNN. We know what
happened to him. I know I did something right.” And he said, “No.” He said, “I will give you
this,” he said, “it was an unjust war but,” he said, “you know the reason it was an unjust war?”
He said, “Because not enough people prayed about it. If more people in the United States had
�26
prayed about it, then they would have gotten God’s attention and He would have heard them and
then He would have made it a just war.” He said, “I will give you that.”
Interviewer: The VA knows how to pick them. (00:44:10)
Veteran: I am just like…my mind is completely destroyed. It just was…I…My thought
process…He said a couple other things during that interview. He said one thing that—and he
didn’t mean it the way it came out. I am not a violent person. I was on my feet. He was about
twice the distance from me to you. He was around the other—a quarter of the way around the
other side of the desk. And I was on my feet and it just like, at that point in time, my brain was
gone. But—and I didn’t—I stopped because he just said, “What I meant was—” and I stopped,
and I apologized. But it just—that was so much beyond my experience in this world. My
experience that each and every breath is such a gift. I don’t get to—I don’t know if there is even
one more. They may come in pairs, they may not. I don’t know, I have lost track. But that those
breaths are so completely important and that I get to experience the Creator while those are
happening, that was so completely above and beyond, I can’t even crack what his experience
was.
Interviewer: Yeah…And really doesn’t sound like he is following his own job description
very well. I can’t think that he is.
Veteran: I never knew, because I have asked a couple people, you know, are they supposed to
tell me I am—did something wrong? I don’t know. Or are they just supposed to ask me
questions? I don’t know.
�27
Interviewer: They are just supposed to get information and evaluate you. Yeah. That’s
pretty bizarre. But yeah, in the meantime, now you have refused to commit a war crime.
And by and large, that’s really—soldiers do have that option. (00:46:18)
Veteran: I thought so. And I still do.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, before we get to sort of the big incident that sort of ends your stay
in Vietnam, are there other memories or impressions that you’ve got from your time there
that you haven’t brought into the story yet?
Veteran: The country was very beautiful. I loved it. You know, I saw the people. I was very
reluctant to engage with people, I think, until they engaged with me. I would throw a little dog
bone out and if they came back with something, you know, and a couple times? Then I would
engage with them. But I didn’t really know because somethings that had happened, somethings
that maybe they had experienced with other soldiers, I didn’t want to try and force it. But so, I
always wanted to talk to people but very reluctant to. And one thing that—when you say
interest—the thing—the country was very beautiful. The scenery was very beautiful. I am an
outdoor person. I am an avid outdoor person. And that was gorgeous. I would like to go back at
some point in time. And the other thing that—the first thing that struck me when you said it was
lightning. I mean, we get crack! Boom! The lightning in Vietnam is a ball of fire that goes across
the sky, and it splits like an atom. It doesn’t come down and hit the ground. It splits like an atom,
and you get these fire balls ricocheting across. So, that was absolutely phenomenal. I mean, that
one, you know, I think of is—that was outrageous. But the country was gorgeous.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, there are lots of stereotypes that people toss around about
Vietnam and what went on there and so forth. One of them has to do with drug use. I
�28
mean, did you observe any of that? I mean, you had said how the guy was trying to sell you
pot at one point. Was there much of that going on? Did it create any actual problems for
the unit or was it just— (00:48:33)
Veteran: There was—I don’t know about the 199th. There was some in my unit. And I was just
like, “Guys…” you know? “No. I mean, our life depends on this thing.” I am totally convinced
that 3 o’clock in the morning—I didn’t smell it but totally convinced that they walked out to the
perimeter someplace. They could have and I wouldn’t know about it if I didn’t see them for 5
hours or something like that. So, not—and I never saw it used in the field.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: But it was used back at the bases and stuff like that.
Interviewer: Okay. And what was the ethnic mix of the troop you were in?
Veteran: Golly, we had everything. We had all types. We had some Asian people and we had
Hispanic people and we had some blacks and we had…Trying to remember…But just—it was a
good mix. It was, it—my particular crew was Caucasian, with three hippies. But so, no. I just had
a really—just a—my crew was very responsive, and I knew I could trust them.
Interviewer: In general, the guys in the company got along with each other? (00:50:17)
Veteran: Yes, they did. I don’t ever remember…There was one night, we went back for stand
down. And I remember this was a—these guys were partying. And three of the guys in D troop
jumped the company commander back in the barracks. And there was quite a ruckus and I
remember one of the guys running for help. And he hit—the powerlines on these things were
maybe 7 feet off the ground, maybe. It was just a forked pole like somebody would put under
�29
their mother’s clothesline, holding these pine lights. And he hit one of those poles and the wire
started going and knocked out the power in half of this whole complete base. And so, these guys
jumped the commander. And the same—just before that, guys—our unit—had this reputation for
being a really rogue unit. And they closed down the place for these guys to go and have
entertainment and drink. When we were coming in, two of the A cavs went down, surrounded
the place, not crossfire, but they surrounded it and said, “You have 15 minutes to get this open or
we will open it.” And the general did not appreciate that when he heard about it. So, he decreed
that we would never come in for stand down again. And we were actually sent out the next day
to herd some rogue elephants.
Interviewer: Okay…
Veteran: We didn’t find them, but we were sent out there. And they actually do have elephants
running around.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: But it was just like this was a rogue unit.
Interviewer: Okay, jumping the captain—were they just drunk and silly or did they not
like the captain? Or…? (00:52:27)
Veteran: We never spent that much time around him, so I don’t know. I don’t know that
situation.
Interviewer: And it wasn’t your guys who were doing that part?
Veteran: No. No, it was not.
�30
Interviewer: Okay. Because there are—you have occasionally incidents where they do
attack officers or frag them or that kind of thing.
Veteran: Absolutely. It was a situation. I didn’t have really any problems with it. The first
sergeant was an ornery, ornery, ornery guy. And at one point in time, he just said, “Stark!” So, I
went over there, and he said, “I don’t like your mustache.” He said, “On some people it looks
good.” And I actually had a trim mustache. I mean, before I went in the service, I had a
handlebar mustache that I could put behind my ears. But so, I said, you know, I said, “You know
Sarge, I keep it trimmed.” He goes, “I know.” He says, “That—there’s guys here that have
mustaches. On you, it just—personally, I don’t think it looks very good, so I think you should
shave it.” I said, “Sarge, I am not going to do it. I am just not going to do it.” He said, “Really?”
I said, “Yeah.” He said, “You’re going to tell me you’re not?” I said, “Yeah.” So, then he just
came out with a couple things and suggested that he could talk me into doing it, and I just said,
“You know, Sarge,” I said, “Vietnam is a heck of a place to try and threaten a guy.” I just walked
away. It wasn’t me…Apparently, well…I took offense at it, but it wasn’t me. Apparently that
night, I understand, that somebody left the pin in a grenade and lobbed it into his bunker. And I
am sure he thought it was me, but it wasn’t. Guarantee it. But he never talked to me that way
again, but I just—it was like I am glad that it wasn’t something different. But…
Interviewer: Right. Consider that a part of the climate.
Veteran: Yeah. (00:54:37)
Interviewer: Now, did—as you are—you did a stand down, which is just you go out of the
field for a while, and you are—you can drink, and you don’t have to be on guard duty for a
little while.
�31
Veteran: Three or four days.
Interviewer: Yeah. That kind of thing. Did you ever get an R and R, or did you leave the
country too soon for that?
Veteran: I left the country too soon.
Interviewer: Alright. Alright, now…So, how does your tour come to an end?
Veteran: Well, on the 23rd of June in ’69, which has always been a very infamous day. I will
have to tell you about this. Grabbing a runway motorcycle that was going to run down my niece
and nephew. My sister decided she wanted to try my motorcycle. And so, I grabbed that, got a
broken arm. A car accident riding with a friend of mine. And he pulled out and a truck nit the
front of his Mustang, tore the front of the Mustang off. Several different things that occurred,
always on the 23rd. My family would always say—not my mom and dad but my sisters and
brother-in-laws and the rest of—would say, “Well, we won’t see you tomorrow, but we will see
you on your birthday.” My birthday is on the 24th. So, we won’t see you tomorrow, but we will
see you on your birthday. They wouldn’t even come around. So, 23rd of June…But it was like,
you know, on the 22nd that night and we get to this place. And we went up to—we were going up
to support the Big Red One Division. (00:56:14)
Veteran: And so, spent the night in the barracks at a base up there. And we were at Xuan Loc.
And so, we are there. And I just got this feeling. And I wrote this letter to my mom and dad. You
guys have been great, love you a whole bunches, thank you for what you have given me, what
you have shown me. If nothing happens, it’s okay. Just keep it. The next day, 23rd, and it wasn’t
something where I was aware of the 23rd and this always happens, so I am overly cautious, I
caused something to happen. We are out there, and we had found a bunch of—I had spotted
�32
some tunnels. I had this ability, and I would—and I spotted these air vents. So, I called it in, said,
“What do you want to do?” And they said, “Have fun. We are not sending anybody out right
now.” So, they said, “Have fun.” So, we played. And this happened and then probably we
received a little bit of fire. Probably 20 minutes later. Just a few rounds. It did actually shoot the
antenna off that was sitting next to—when we are riding in those things, the driver is inside. I
have got a board. I am behind an armored guard, with a 50 there, but I am out of the vehicle. My
feet—I have a board across the top of this thing. I am sitting on this thing. I put a tractor seat on
it, so I had a spring and everything. Sitting on top of that. And the guys—my grenadier is riding
on the hatch alongside of me and my two guys are up in the back. (00:58:24)
Veteran: Everybody just slides in when this thing happens. And so, the antenna got shot off. So,
we stopped for a few minutes, and I repaired the antenna. I am a ham radio right now, ham radio
operator. I would have to actually look up the formula for remembering how to cut match a
length of wire because it is busted. It is completely—so, I wired this thing together, I stripped the
wire off a light inside the vehicle, cut and matched it, taped it on and put a splint on it just like
you do for a broken hand or something like that. And it wasn’t until I saw the pictures of the
devastation that I remembered that happening. I mean, Rick was right there, and the round was
shot off. And it shot it off—he was within probably 12-13 inches of where that thing got shot off.
So, now we are riding along, back on the road again. We got radio communications; we can talk
with everybody. And we got hit and ambushed. The ambush was triggered. They went back
afterwards and pieced it together. They needed to know what they were using to do this
devastation. What they found out was frags from—it was one of our aerial 500 pounders that was
obviously a dud. It didn’t land, it didn’t go off when it—or detonate—when it went off or landed.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�33
Veteran: It lifted that thirteen and a half ton vehicle up in the air eight and a half feet, according
to the crews behind us, spun it around 180, blew it backwards and deposited it 40 feet away from
where that thing went off. It ripped the bottom out of it. It stayed upright. It didn’t tumble
because it hit right underneath. (01:00:32)
Interviewer: Now, were the men inside the vehicle at that time or were they on top of it?
Veteran: I don’t know for sure. I am guessing they were probably on top of it, except for the
driver. That whole floor just came completely out of that thing. There is pictures of it that are
just—it’s phenomenal. And one of the pictures was taken through the back hatch. You’ll see a
long piece of metal that looks like a U channel. That’s actually the floor that was over the left
tread. And the bogie wheel used to ride inside of it. So, I was in the queue below. I was the cork
in the bottle. When that pressure blew up and the whole thing—I got launched 45 yards. I don’t
remember it. I apparently stood up out there during the firefight. I don’t remember it. It wasn’t
me because I don’t do things like that. And this really wasn’t me because I apparently stood up
for the second time during the firefight. And don’t remember it. My driver crawled out there,
because he yelled at the crew behind. He said, “Where’s Chuck? Where’s Chuck?” and he said,
“They told me the general direction in which you exited the vicinity.” And when you see the
pictures, the grass is probably 5 feet tall. And I am out there someplace. And when you look at it
with looping, you can actually see the trail that they went out and brought me back. So, they
brought me back. And another picture is when they are bringing me back and they are just
carrying me back and setting me down. I am behind part of the vehicle so you can see my upper
torso and head. And my wife, my lovely lady of all these years now—we were married in ’71.
(01:02:33)
�34
Veteran: She looked at that picture and she said, “Just like you: always have to be the center of
attention.” So, thanks, love. But my left gunner was blown off: a 45-degree angle backwards.
That vehicle went up, went over the top of him and came down and the back half of the vehicle
hit his leg and broke his leg. It was soft and swampy and everything like that so it just pile drove
it in. And then when the treads started hitting, the rest of it—or any of the bottom of it—just
started hitting it. So, it didn’t cut his leg off or anything. He had a broken leg. But to have
thirteen and a half tons of vehicle come over the top of you, literally over the top of you, and
land and break your leg.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, were the—any of the other guys hurt too?
Veteran: My left gunner was. Had that busted leg. My right gunner had a little bit of a crease.
And my driver was inside, Rick was on the hatch alongside of me. Rick flew forward. Driver—
the whole floor came out and pushed him up in one piece. And so, it protected him. And they
collided in mid-air about eight feet up and then kept each other together. And right gunner went
off the right side so my left gunner got the broken leg and that was it.
Interviewer: Okay. Now what kind of injuries did you have? (01:04:04)
Veteran: Well…First of all, landing headfirst, my helmet was crushed. My—I had TBI:
Traumatic Brain Injury. I do well. I do well. I had torn diaphragm so I couldn’t breathe real well.
Busted left arm. And I had propelled shots, left arm and left side. That’s apparently from
standing up. Scorched my left side. Actually, went in the flak jacket, came out the flak jacket and
so it slowed it down enough that it went into my elbow. It hit the bone and tore up some bone
and stuff like that. The lead was still inside. So, going through probably this much length of flak
jacket instead of just through it, it saved it, my left arm. So…
�35
Interviewer: So, you are in pretty bad shape at that point, once the initial shock wears off.
Veteran: I don’t remember any of it. I don’t remember any of it. In fact, when I found my driver,
we talked the very first time afterwards. And he said, “What do you remember?” And I said,
“Nothing.” And he said, “You kept asking me what happened,” and he said, “I would tell you.”
And he said that he actually thought that I was going to move my—lose my left eye. It was
completely blood, and it was sort of moved in a real weird angle. But he said, “You kept asking
and I kept telling you.” He said, “Couldn’t be more than 15-20 seconds later, you were asking
what happened.” I didn’t remember it. I didn’t remember anything until the—being thrown into a
chopper. And they had been at a previous firefight. And I was just loaded in on top. (01:06:24)
Veteran: So, that was—that one I choose not to remember. And but I got to the hospital, and I
remember getting there. And this was the time of Ben Casey, where you see—you are laying on
a core—and the gurney hits the doors, the doors open up and all you see is the hospital from the
ceiling view. I don’t remember anything until late that night. And it was hours, hours, hours
later. And it was at nighttime, and I kept asking what happened there, what happened to Rose,
because I knew he had that broken leg. They loaded him in at the same time. So, I kept asking
and they couldn’t tell me. They couldn’t tell me. So, I went looking for him. I just got up and
went looking for him. And it’s all the Quonsets like you see on MASH.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: All these adjoined. I am walking through all of these things and just looking for him.
And I finally saw him in a bed, and I woke him up. And he was okay. He had a broken leg. And I
was talking to him and all of a sudden, panic broke out in this hospital. They are hollering and
screaming, they are yelling. And this is, you know, it’s just like I had no idea what was going on.
�36
And this goes on, it goes on, it goes on. Finally, somebody realized I was the one they were
looking for. I apparently pulled my IVs, my breathing, and was walking around. And they were
screaming at me. They are just furious. And all of a sudden, it was just like they have sort of
realized then that yeah, maybe it wasn’t all my fault. But I think it was funny at the time. And I
still think it is funny. I didn’t mean to freak them out but just that that happened. So, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so how long do you think— (01:08:24)
Veteran: Knee; torn knee.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: So…
Interviewer: So, how long are you in the hospital in Vietnam?
Veteran: That time frame I don’t know. I can’t—
Interviewer: You’d guess days as opposed to weeks?
Veteran: Oh no, it’s probably weeks.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And then I was medevaced out. The reason they couldn’t let me go before was I still
had a torn diaphragm. They did nothing to—they never did anything to fix it. But they
couldn’t—I couldn’t breathe real well so when you are in an aircraft at altitude…So, I stayed
there enough that they could—they figured I could handle the short hop to Japan. So, they did a
short hop to Japan. And then I was there for—in Japan—for a while. And I was there through a
good part of July probably.
�37
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I don’t know for sure. And then I could—at that point in time, I took the big hop back,
which was horrendous. I was on a stretcher, and you are stacked up in these ships. Literally, you
are this high. I couldn’t turn over because my shoulders were too broad. I couldn’t even get on
my side. So, from Vietnam all the way back to Indiana, Illinois, maybe it was—I was probably in
Illinois.
Interviewer: Did you go to Great Lakes Hospital eventually? (01:10:11)
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Then they took a short hop to Great Lakes. But they did this thing, and I am laying—it
is probably 27 hours.
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: Laying, and you can’t do anything. You can’t turn, you can’t…That was—and then
being just still in a lot of discomfort.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: That was horrendous.
Interviewer: Did they have people tending you at all?
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: Or just—you are just stuck on there and—
�38
Veteran: You are there. You are there. I don’t remember seeing a single person during that flight.
Yeah, you are just strapped in. I couldn’t turn; I am strapped in.
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: So, that was not fun.
Interviewer: After your original incident in the Vietnam hospital when you got up out of
bed, did they strap you down there or did they just tell you don’t do that again? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah, they were—they did not—they never tethered me down. And I think probably
because at that point in time I was probably somewhat lucid. Probably mostly lucid. But yeah,
they did not.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, when you get back then and you are at Great Lakes, now
were you confined to a bed, or can you get up and move around or…?
Veteran: No, I can get up and move around. I am still having difficulties. I have major back
injuries from that. I have retrolisthesis where the—if you think about the spine lining up like this,
but then if you go like this and it doesn’t line up, which is retrolisthesis, now that spot in between
where the cord runs is starting to pinch. So, I have neuropathy of both feet, lower extremities,
and hip and stuff like that. So, yeah, it…I am there. I am actually able to walk around. I asked,
“How did I get to Great Lakes Naval Hospital?” When I was at Japan, they put me in a bed there
and I looked down and looked at this guy and it looks like a chief warrant officer that I knew.
And he’s got the blanket sort of pulled up and he, you know, at some point in time he rolls over.
It is him! He wakes up. “Frank!” “Chuck! What are you…”? You know, it’s just like…So, we
are talking. He says, “You know where you heading?” I said, “I don’t have a clue.” (01:12:34)
�39
Veteran: He said, “Where do you want to go?” and I said, “I’d love to go to Great Lakes Naval
Hospital because I have family, I have cousins, that live about 16 miles away.” I said, “That
would be so cool.” I ended up with orders cut for Great Lakes Naval Hospital. So, I am the only
Army guy in a Navy base.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I had to be there at Monday morning at 7 o’clock. And if I needed to see the doctor, I
had to be there at Wednesday at noon. The rest of the time I was signed out. And I spent the time
with family. So…
Interviewer: It does remind me…Before we came into the session, you mentioned that
when you were in Vietnam, you actually ran into somebody you knew on the same
firebase?
Veteran: Oh yeah. I think it was Firebase Sue. And mortar attack, everybody cutting loose. And
they are doing free fire in this. I am staying away from the village part of it. They are in my zone
if I swing but I am staying away from it because there was nobody coming over the wires. And
called cease fire, called cease fire the second time. It just comes down the chain. And called
cease fire the second time and probably not more than 10 or 12 feet to my position where we are
in the vehicle inside of that barricaded area, call cease fire the second time. And when I look
over to the bunker there and a guy looks at me at the same time. Up on top of this bunker is Tom
Deary from my graduating class in Muskegon High School. And we are just both like, “Chuck!”
“Tom! What are you doing here?” So yeah, that was the only person I ever ran into there that
was definitely from Muskegon. (01:14:30)
�40
Interviewer: Alright. Go back now to the main story. So, basically you spend several
months at Great Lakes, kind of recuperating.
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Now when you got out, were you listed as disabled or partially or…?
Veteran: Oh no.
Interviewer: Did they—you’re just out?
Veteran: I am out. And now I am at the hospital, and I am seen at the hospital for my torn knee. I
am walking with a cane. And back treatments some of the time, most of the time not. And they
are trying to figure out what to do with the neuropathy, this type of thing. But I was assigned to a
training unit. So, now I am training new troops.
Interviewer: Okay. Where were you doing that?
Veteran: At Fort Knox.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you go back to Fort Knox after—
Veteran: Back to Fort Knox, yep.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And that’s where—and I am being looked at at the hospital. They are not really doing
anything, but I am being—I am in and out. And I am walking with a cane. And so—and I am
training troops, with a cane.
Interviewer: Okay, how did that go?
�41
Veteran: Unusual, but I could impart a little bit of things. I tried—if I saw somebody that had a
horrible attitude—I can’t envision why anybody being drafted would ever have a horrible
attitude, but anyway. And I could maybe make a little bit of difference. But I could—and I would
see people, you know, maybe handling a weapon differently or doing something differently. You
know, hey, think about this. So, maybe I did some good. I don’t know.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you weren’t really in charge of a group of people, you were just
kind of helping out with various training sessions and that kind of thing. (01:16:19)
Veteran: Yeah. And I was part of this group also. I was selected as an aggressor. Somebody has
to be the aggressor for training. And the aggressor—I took it easy on the new guys, but we also
did the aggressor for the NCO academy.
Interviewer: Now, when you say aggressor, do you mean someone who is playing the enemy
when you are doing training exercises?
Veteran: Absolutely.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay.
Veteran: And I did not take it easy on those guys at all. It became…There was a decree that I
would never go out in the field as an aggressor again.
Interviewer: Okay...
Veteran: There was an exercise. And there was a full bird colonel on this exercise. And I just…I
can hide really, really, well. I really can. And I hid well, and the pine tree was not any taller than
you sitting in that chair. And I was hidden underneath this thing and curled up underneath and to
the side. They were coming right at me. I knew they were going to have to turn. And they turned
�42
and went right past me. They were probably 6 feet away. Everybody was inside the vehicle. I
came up behind them, popped the smoke grenade and threw it inside the vehicle. Apparently, the
full bird colonel did not appreciate this, and my people did not rat me out. But it was decreed that
the person that did this will never ever go out as…I sort of got revenge on the full bird that time.
Interviewer: So, how long do you think you spent at Fort Knox? (01:18:25)
Veteran: Altogether?
Interviewer: Mhmm. Well, no I mean that last stint.
Veteran: Oh, in that last group? I think I probably left there maybe like in…September.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Or maybe October.
Interviewer: Alright. So, because I guess when we were doing the original laying out, I
thought you had initially said that you got out in—I guess you finished in June in Vietnam.
That was when that ended, but then you have…So…
Veteran: January 20th I got out, in ’90.
Interviewer: Okay. Or…’70.
Veteran: Or not—yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So, you basically did still have your two full years, or…
Veteran: Real close.
Interviewer: Or there abouts. Okay. Yeah, but the last months of that were spent at Fort
Knox.
�43
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, I am a little surprised that they kept a guy with a cane, but…Or
did you eventually not need the cane by the time you were done?
Veteran: I did not need the cane by the time I was done.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And I assume they didn’t make much of an effort to get you to
re-enlist?
Veteran: They saw no need for me because not only did they not do anything, they did not repair
the knee. They didn’t repair anything. They didn’t even repair the torn…
Interviewer: Your diaphragm.
Veteran: …diaphragm. I am still sucking air. I am still. You know? That was not fixed until
much later.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: That wasn’t fixed until—the first time that it was attempted was by a civilian doctor in
2010. So, I went all those years with a torn diaphragm. Eventually, in 2010 the stomach ended up
above the diaphragm in the lung area. So, it was figured at that point in time somebody should
try something. (01:20:24)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, that was the first of four operations to resolve this.
Interviewer: Wow. Alright. So, what do you—now, once you get out then in 1970, now
what do you do?
�44
Veteran: I went to school. And I—the only way I got out early was I applied for an early out for
education.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: They are still keeping me. They can’t do anything with me, but they are still keeping
me. And so, at that point in time then, I applied for an early out. And went to school in
Muskegon. And decided that, at that point in time, I started doing some computer stuff. And
that’s back when the computers were humongous, and they were still doing cards. And I learned
Fortran and COBOL, stuff like that. I did a couple sessions there and then I decided that I wanted
to do something differently. And really, really good friend of mine—just a very, very beautiful
soul—had mentioned something about well, maybe you could do something with…because you
like the outdoors, how about doing something like conservation officer? Or something like that.
There was nothing available at the time, but I did choose environmental. I have always been very
active in environmental stuff. So, I went and I got two degrees in environmental. And when I left
there, then I was hired as a health officer for Lapeer County in Michigan. And was there for a
number of years. And I have been multitude of—multitude of jobs and vocations. Security,
personal security, and just all kinds of stuff over the years. (01:22:34)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you have also done…You were telling me a little bit about a
program you were involved—helping with prisons, or…?
Veteran: Oh! Oh, that’s something that I have been asked to do recently.
Interviewer: Okay. Explain that.
Veteran: Yeah, that one there…It’s…We have a friend that just actually wrote and is directing
this program. And it’s being accepted. It was done originally for prisons. We actually got to
�45
interview a prisoner from Texas. And we had a videotape from the warden of this particular
prison. And it’s the real hole in Texas. And he just—he’s putting this word out to other people
and saying, “Hey, what you need to do is you need to look at this program.” And it’s a tensession class. And I have been asked to think about being a facilitator and take each person
through the class. The second half of the class is reflection from what you just heard. And the
thing that has really baffled everybody is the thing that people are talking about: what was your
favorite part of this class? The reflection. Now, can you envision hard-core criminals—one
included, which is—that I know of—is a murderer, saying, “I get to tell somebody about what I
feel now. I get to tell, and I get to help other people understand what they are feeling.” So, there
is a possibility of this happening. It just was sort of approached to me this last week. And I am
going to go through the training and… (01:24:38)
Interviewer: Well, what is the class itself? What does that consist of?
Veteran: You and your feelings and you being a human. Teaching people humanity. And when
they understand…
Interviewer: Don’t play with your microphone. It makes noises.
Veteran: Oh, sorry. Understanding, you know, what they are feeling. And these people are
actually graduating from this class. And now, I have been told that the director has said, “Let’s
look at going to vets’ groups because why not?” You know. I mean, and I have been very active
with Purple Heart Groups and stuff like that. So, I am excited about it, and I will keep you
updated, and I will let you know how it works.
Interview: Okay. So, it is basically geared toward people who have gone through very
traumatic or difficult things. Just sort—
�46
Veteran: Absolutely.
Interviewer: And then, just finding ways to sort it out or make sense of it.
Veteran: And were they feeling comfortable with themselves? And I guess I don’t need to have
these drugs right now. I mean, how often do you hear this kind of stuff? So, I will keep you
posted on that one.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, the psychiatrist there in Battle Creek had, I guess, asked
you the question about did you find anything positive in your military time. I would, I
guess, put it in a different way. I would ask well, overall, how do you think your time in the
service affected you? I mean, you have talked about the physical side of things and stuff
you have carried. But otherwise, how do you think it affected you? (01:26:15)
Veteran: There’s really no way to get rid of it, the stuff that you are holding inside. So, even
seeing how others were treated, I mean that stuff just stays with you. It was not a positive
experience. Yeah, a lot of experience about doing the job. A lot of experience about
understanding even more than what I had. I have always had an excellent way with nature. I can
see something that doesn’t belong there. Maybe it’s a color and maybe it’s a pattern. Maybe it’s
a straight line. Mother Nature doesn’t have straight lines...Something like that. So, sharpening
that? And that even came in: understanding and visually—visual acuity. Some people call it
hypersensitivity. In this case here, my hypersensitivity has really allowed me to pick up on visual
cues or stuff like that. When I was doing personal security for individuals, hypersensitivity is a
good thing.
Interviewer: Okay.
�47
Veteran: If it is used properly. So... There is that. But it wasn’t something that I relished at all. I
will tell you how much I didn’t relish it: when I was not in training, even when I was in training,
and when you are cooperating and doing well, they allow you to have the weekends off. I
actually took off and would go from Fort Knox to Muskegon, Michigan. We are supposed to be
within about 50-mile ranges.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: But I didn’t. I was gone every—I think I only—figured out one time—only spent 3
weekends on Fort Knox. I—it was nothing there for me. It just wasn’t anything I wanted to do.
So, it was...I gained some positive things like the hypersensitivity and maybe understanding
people a little bit more. When you see people that are going through—and I know when I am
going through, maybe I have a little bit more patience. So…
Interviewer: Yeah. (01:28:41)
Veteran: Maybe? My wife might not think so, but I do.
Interviewer: Well, you managed to stay married since 1971, so…
Veteran: Absolutely. She’s been the…. she gets the—all of the kudos.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah. All the credit for that. Alright.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Well, it does make for a very good story, so... And you actually told it
well. So, thank you very much for coming in today and sharing.
Veteran: Well, thank you for the opportunity. (01:29:13)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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StarkC2183V
Creator
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Stark, Chuck
Date
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2018-02
Title
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Stark, Charles (Interview transcript and video), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Chuck Stark was born in 1948 in Muskegon, Michigan. He graduated from Muskegon Senior High School in 1966. He joined the Army in April 1968 and completed his basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky. Chuck remained at Fort Knox for his advanced individual training, which was focused on reconnaissance. He then attended the Non-Commissioned Officers’ Academy at Fort Knox as well. Chuck was sent to Vietnam in 1969 and was assigned to the D Troop, 17th Cavalry Regiment. While in Vietnam, he was involved in various skirmishes and reconnaissance missions. On June 23rd, 1969, Chuck sustained several injuries when the vehicle that he was riding in was ambushed and blown apart. Due to his injuries, he was sent from Vietnam to Great Lakes Naval Hospital in Illinois to recuperate. Once he recovered sufficiently, he was assigned to a training unit at Fort Knox to finish out his time in the military. He left the Army in January 1970. Chuck is currently actively involved with a reformative program that is designed to help people in the prison system.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
Text
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/10190d6feae8910cecff64eae9cfe2b7.mp4
5cd4ce39265193aa12b0d81a823f6449
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5837637979ad7c2360bfdff1950811b8.pdf
aea8d81526bf151132d7e65c631e3d10
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Wesley Spyke
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 2:12:37
Interviewer: We are talking today with Wesley Spyke of Norton Shores, Michigan, and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, Wes, start us off with some background on yourself. And to begin with,
where and when were you born?
Veteran: Well, I was born—I am a native of Muskegon, Michigan. Born in 1948 to Delores and
Frank Spyke. I have two older sisters of which have been deceased now, but they too are also
natives of Muskegon.
Interviewer: What was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?
Veteran: Well, actually, my mother was a registered nurse, and my father was a journeyman tool
layout inspector for Continental Motors at the time. So, I came from a well-educated family, I
guess.
Interviewer: Alright. I mean, did your father have a college education or just a lot of
technical training?
Veteran: There was a lot of technical training in there. You know?
�2
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And did you finish high school?
Veteran: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Interviewer: What year did you—
Veteran: 1966.
Interviewer: Okay. And then what did you do when you graduated from high school?
Veteran: Well actually, I went—I graduated when I was 17.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, when I turned 18 years old, the lure of money, you know, grabbed me and I went to
work for Brunswick Corporation, as a matter of fact. And I got laid off of there and then I
bounced from Campbell, Wyant and Cannon Foundry to, you know, and I tried going to MCC
and I realized that I was not college material.
Interviewer: Okay, that is Muskegon Community College.
Veteran: Muskegon Community College, yes. So, I didn’t really get involved in the
apprenticeship until after Vietnam. So, I was raised in the housing projects in Muskegon. My
mother got cancer early on and I remember as a very young child that she couldn’t work
anymore. And so, with that being said, of course my father was the main breadwinner. But we
were not poor in the sense of being poor. (00:02:40)
Interviewer: Yeah. You had a roof over your head, you had food to eat.
Veteran: Yeah, yes, absolutely. Even in the projects. And you know what, I always had clean
clothes. I always got a new set of clothes before school. New shoes and that type of thing. But
�3
my sisters, my oldest sister is 13 years older than I was. And my middle sister was 9 years older
than I was, so I was kind of the baby of the family, and I was spoiled rotten by them. And I mean
literally rotten. So, they were very good sisters. And I love them dearly.
Interviewer: Alright. So, in that period, kind of ’66, ‘7, ’68, before you go in the service,
how aware were you of the Vietnam War?
Veteran: Well, the media of course…In the media, I should say, Vietnam was raging at that time.
’67, ’68…Tet Offensive in ’68 was probably one of the bloodiest years in the Vietnam conflict,
if you will, the Vietnam War. And I knew that my draft number was going to come up, so I
started looking at all the other branches of the service. Well, I didn’t want to go in the Marine
Corps because I knew where they were going. And I didn’t want to go in the Army; I knew
where they were going. And the Air Force…and I don’t know why I didn’t look at them any
further, but I really didn’t. I have always wanted to be in the Navy. (00:04:15)
Veteran: So, I had gone down, and I talked to the recruiter. And he said, “You know, we have a
reserve program that if you decide to enlist, we will keep you here for a year and allow you to
get some type of rank before you go active duty, which is a 2-year stint in the regular Navy.”
And I thought, well, that doesn’t sound bad. He says, “However,” he says, “if you get the
greetings from the U.S. government,” he said, “do not open that envelope.” He says, “Bring it
down here and we will get you enlisted in the Navy.” Well, at that point in my mind, I said, “I
am not going to Vietnam. I am not going to do it. So, I am going to enlist in the Navy.”
Interviewer: Right.
�4
Veteran: Thinking that I was going to get onboard the USS New Jersey or something, the big
battlewagon and all this business, and go to the Med. I was going to go to the Mediterranean, and
we were going to go on goodwill tours and all that. Ah, no; that didn’t happen.
Interviewer: Okay, so when did you sign up?
Veteran: I signed up in April of ’68. And it was for a 6-year jaunt, but they said 2 years of it
would be active—
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: --and 1 year kind of semi-active. You’d go through your training. And then whatever
time was left over, you would do that in the Reserves, should you come back. I remember going
in. They said—because in the Navy, you have a rank and you have a rate, or a job what they call
you. And I—my mom was an RN, so I thought I will be a hospital corpsman. You know. So, I
started my studies. They sent for a book, you know, and you have to go through this book, and
they would give you testing. And I remember these guys teasing me. (00:06:24)
Veteran: On the drill weekends, they’d tease me, “Hey, you are going to go with the Marines,”
and all this other kind of stuff. I said, “No, I am not going. No, I am going to be a corpsman.” He
said, “That’s what we mean. You are going to be with the Marines.” He said, “Because that’s
what the medics, for the Marines Corps, that’s where they get their medical.” I said, “No...” So, I
had gone into the administration office. I told them, I said, “I…wait a minute,” I said, “a hospital
corpsman,” I said, “are they—do they go to the Marine Corps?” He said, “Well, the Marines are
a division of the Navy.” He says, “That’s where they get their hospital training, their medical.”
And I said, “Well…” I said, “Would you go to Vietnam?” he answered, “Well, you—Wes, you
probably will go to Vietnam.” And I said, “No, no I am not going there. No, you don’t
�5
understand. I didn’t sign up for this. I’d have gone…” And they said, “Well, you’re allowed one
change.” I said, “Okay.” I said, “Give me the form.” So, like an idiot, you know, I signed the
form. And they said, “And we will give it to you—we will let you know when you finish your
drill for the weekend.” I remember walking out the door and I stopped, and I turned around and I
said, “What—by the way, what did I sign up for?” And he said, “Well, gunner’s mate, guns.”
And I said, “Well,”—this was a shoe in gym for me. I am going to be on the USS New Jersey or
a heavy cruiser or something like that. I am going to work on the big guns. Well, no; that didn’t
happen either.
Interviewer: Alright. Let’s—to kind of pull the story together a little bit. So, you enlist in
April of ’68.
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: Do you go off to bootcamp right away? Or does that take a while?
Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. And so, where do you go for bootcamp? (00:08:09)
Veteran: Great Lakes. I went to Great Lakes, Illinois.
Interviewer: Alright. And what did bootcamp consist of at that point?
Veteran: Well, basically it was drilling and taking care of your uniforms and basically a lot of
stuff to get you to fall in line with the disciplines of the United States military, from a naval
standpoint. So…
Interviewer: Alright. And how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to that?
�6
Veteran: It was easy for me. I mean, I liked the military life. It wasn’t as hard as the Army or the
Marine Corps, I don’t think. Certainly, the Marine Corps it wasn’t as hard as. But yeah, I did
well in boot camp.
Interviewer: Okay because you mentioned that you were the baby of the family and spoiled
rotten. I was wondering about the transition from that to being in Navy boot camp. Or had
you just done enough work and things like that that you were used to doing what you were
told?
Veteran: Well, doing what I was told didn’t really do much but…I liked the military, and I just
never had a problem with it. I could see what the disciplines were and why they were the way
they were. You know? So, you know, I really didn’t have a problem with that.
Interviewer: Okay. And how long did the boot camp last?
Veteran: Probably about 3 months, I guess?
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And what kind of act—did you get any training in anything?
Veteran: Oh yeah. You know, they bring you through the gas houses you know and all that
business. But for the Navy, part of that training was on the USS Havre, which was docked
at…and at some point, it was supposed to go out for a 2-week cruise and that never happened. It
was being worked on and all that, so it just really didn’t happen to do the cruise. However, we
did have to do the shipboard training: where the compartments were, the ladder ways, you know,
and bulkheads. Of course, the armament that was on there and all that business. But a lot of it
consisted of painting.
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:10:20)
�7
Veteran: There as a lot of painting involved.
Interviewer: Alright. And what type of ship was that?
Veteran: That was a PCE, a patrol craft escort. So, it was a little bit smaller than a destroyer. We
put the rigging up for the flags, you know, for Memorial Day. And then we were allowed to go
into Chicago. Well, we didn’t have any money. I was there with a guy from Jackson, Michigan.
And he was like, “Well, let’s go into Chicago, Wes.” And well so anyway, we went into
Chicago, and we stayed at a mission there because we didn’t have any money. He did; he had a
little bit of money. But that was an eye-opener: being in Chicago basically all night and finally
stumbling upon this mission and going in. But we were only there for probably, I don’t know, a
couple nights. Spent a night there and then came back to the base. It was just easier to come back
to the base.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know, the meals were there and all that stuff.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. Alright. So, when—once you finish that, what do you do next?
Well, after boot camp.
Veteran: Well, we came back to, you know again, civilian life. And then you’d continue your
studies until you go orders to go to active duty.
Interviewer: Alright. And so basically, you were now assigned to a Reserve unit in
Muskegon and so you show up for the weekends or…?
�8
Veteran: Yeah. Basically, that’s the way it was. And then of course when we got orders, my
orders were to go to San Francisco, Treasure Island, and wait for wherever you were going to go
with it. You were going to go to the fleet or whatever.
Interviewer: Okay. Now so the part where you were reading your manuals and you make
the switch from corpsman to gunner’s mate, was that while you were with the Reserve
unit? Or—
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yep.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, at what point do you get to gunnery training? When does that
come in? (00:12:17)
Veteran: Well, that’s interesting because you don’t get gunnery training until you go to active
duty.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Physical gunnery training.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And that’s a very good point, Jim, because I didn’t gunnery training on the big guns.
Once I got out of or received orders to Da Nang, Vietnam, after 3—and I spent 3 months in San
Francisco. While I was there, they put me in a geedunk or a sandwich area where you had to
maintain the vending machines and mop the floors, all that. And I got my orders to Da Nang and
my heart sank of course. I was thinking oh my gosh, you really got to be kidding me. Because
�9
you don’t look at Vietnam at that time as being—any areas—being peaceful or being wellprotected. The first thing you are thinking of is I am going to be in the field, and I am going to be
in fire fights all the time. And the possibility of getting killed or injured always enters your mind.
Well, then we got…we got orders to go home for a 30-day leave before you went to Vietnam.
And I did that. But before we left to do the 30-day leave, we said, “You’re going to come back
and your orders are going to go to Coronado, California. And you will receive further training
there.” And I am thinking wait a minute: Coronado, California is a UDT SEAL base. I am—they
don’t get this. I am not going to be a SEAL. And I am not going to be underwater demolition.
But what I didn’t know is that they were setting up training at that time for riverboats. And the
majority, from what I understand, of the riverboat personnel there were Reservists. So anyway,
we—I came back to Coronado.
Interviewer: Okay, I want to actually back up a little bit.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, you spent 3 months in San Francisco.
Veteran: Yes. (00:14:34)
Interviewer: Did you go into town at all?
Veteran: Yes, I did. And it’s funny: most of the time when I went into town, I went in alone. And
I never got bothered and a lot of these guys would come back all beat up and everything. And
when I told them that I would go into town, I said, “No one ever bothered me.” And I would go
in full uniform. Of course, back then, it was summertime or spring, and we were in whites then.
And I said—I remember going into town. I went into Chinatown and that’s where a lot of these
guys were getting beat up. And never came back—I never had a conflict with anybody. But I
�10
remember going into town by myself and I remember going into a bar that was an all-gay bar.
And of course, coming from the Midwest, we didn’t have that here at the time.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah.
Veteran: And I remember, and I thought gosh, these women look awful strange…You know?
And they were dancing on the bar and all this kind of stuff. I thought…And I am looking and one
of these gals had a mustache. And I am thinking I am in the wrong place…For me, I am in the
wrong place. And one of them asked me for a date I recall. And I just got out and moved out and
I never went into town again. I went back to the base. But I was so close to going to, again, down
to southern California.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, let’s go down now back to Coronado. You get there. Now
what happens? (00:16:21)
Veteran: I get there, and they tell us that we are going through—they say we are going to go
through small arms training, and we are going up to Camp Pendleton and the Marine Corps is
going to train you in small arms. Now, I am really getting a little bit…you know, I am starting to
think something is happening here. This is not the big guns in the fleet. This is small arms and
gunner’s mates in the fleet don’t mess with any of that. Well, they do but not very often. And I
remember going up to Pendleton. And I had a little Snoopy pin, a little gold Snoopy pin that I
wore on my cap. And these Marines were saluting me, thinking that I was an officer. And I sat
down in a 6x with the rest of the crew, and they said, “Wes, you need to take that off.” He said,
“If these jarheads see that that’s a Snoopy pin, they’re going to beat you senseless.” So, I did; I
did take it off. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I am not going to, you know, risk a
beating because of that. Anyway, we stayed out of the camp in tents and all that business and
�11
then we went to the firing range, and they were training us on M-16s, Remington Wingmaster
shotguns. We didn’t get too much training on the M-60. That was more of a self-taught thing
later on. but you know, 45 pistol. And I remember that the DI was setting me up with this 12gauge shotgun. And I had shot this so many times that I was really getting sore in my shoulder.
And I made the mistake of holding that away from my shoulder, because it was so sore, and
touching that off and that the butt of the gun came up across. Blackened both of my eyes and my
nose was bleeding and that’s all that DI needed. That. And he called me out in front of
everybody and dressed me down as an idiot and the whole nine yards. And never forgot that. I
haven’t forgotten in 40-some odd years. But with that being…and I was stuck with that weapon
for the rest of the day anyway, Jim, so by the time—I mean, my whole shoulder was black and
blue. (00:18:47)
Veteran: But it was something that I never forgot, and I thank him for that to this day because it
was part of the discipline that you received that could have very easily saved my life, in some
course of my time in Vietnam.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, now…So, then—so you do that weapons training at Camp
Pendleton and then how much time did you spend at Pendleton, do you think?
Veteran: I think we spent probably a week; I am guessing. Now, in the course of that time, I was
supposed to receive to go to what they call SERE training. Have you ever heard of that?
Survival, evasion, resistance, and escape. And in my records, they have that I went to that class
for 3 weeks. And they are classes. They are set up.
Interviewer: Yep.
�12
Veteran: And it was signed off by a lieutenant. I never went. Never went, they just signed it off.
They needed bodies for Vietnam, and they weren’t going to mess with taking the time to do that.
Well with that being said, we went back to Coronado. And I remember one of the last classes we
had was—they said, “You’re going to get a 10-day protocol leave. Go home, make arrangements
with insurance and everything and blah blah blah…” And that’s when it registered. I had talked
to the fellow next to me and I said, “What is he talking…?” I said, “Don’t they have insurance?”
I said, “Don’t they take care of their own here?” And he looked at me and he said, “You really
don’t know what’s going on yet, do you?” I said, “Well, I know I am not the sharpest knife in the
drawer,” I said, “but no, I don’t.” He said, “Dude,” he said, “we’re going to Vietnam.” He said,
“You’re going to be in combat on a naval support activity base or something.” This guy was
fleet, so he had been in the Navy for a while. (00:20:57)
Veteran: I said, “Well, go take care of your—what do they mean?” He says, “Life insurance in
case you get offed or whatever, you have insurance to help your folks or whatever, should you
desire.” And my heart sank. And I have to tell you, Jim, I was afraid. I was afraid. Because with
what you had seen on the media through all these years was just nothing but heavy fire fighting
and villages burning and all of that. And I thought of myself, coming out of the projects, as a
fairly tough kid, you know. But that didn’t appeal to me one bit. Now, I don’t mind servicing my
country or anything, but I certainly didn’t want to go to Vietnam. I mean, we are halfway around
the globe. You know? And it’s not as though it is today where you can pick up your cell phone
and call home from a war zone.
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:22:06)
Veteran: That—no, you can’t do that. So…
�13
Interviewer: Okay, so what was it like to go back home that last time?
Veteran: Well, of course you went out and got drunk a few times with your buddies. Now, what
buddies were still there because a lot of them had already gone. And I guess it really—you still
don’t really realize until you’re ready to step on the plane to go. And that did happen. I boarded
in Muskegon. It’s a funny thing about the Navy is that we went over one by one. We didn’t go
over as a group like—not like the Army and the Marine Corps where they would go over in a
group.
Interviewer: To Vietnam, most of them went one by one too.
Veteran: Yeah? That’s crazy. And of course, you are getting on the plane and as the plane is
taxiing down and you leave your hometown, and you look out the window and you are looking
down at Lake Michigan. And of course, over on the other side is Mona Lake. And you are
thinking am I ever going to see that again? You know? And so, you are afraid. You know, it’s
the unknown. You are going into the unknown. And this is—it’s an adventure but it’s not the
kind of adventure that you want.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know, so…Anyway.
Interviewer: So, you go up. And then, do they fly you to Vietnam?
Veteran: They did us. They—some of the Marines and everything were taken over by ship and
everything. But they did us; flew us over there. And I can remember landing in Da Nang. And
we had made one hop too on the way over there. Now that I recall, I think it was in Guam.
Refueling or whatever.
�14
Interviewer: Right. (00:24:04)
Veteran: And we got into Da Nang. And I remember stepping—my first stepping out of the
fuselage and breathing the tropical air and there was a different scent about it as well and it was
humid, and it was hot. And I remember going through and back—just kind of backing up in San
Francisco, they gave us a shot called the gamma globulin shot. It was a big shot, and it was a
painful shot. But when I got of that plane, I was glad that I had that shot because it supposedly
was supposed to thin out your blood and get you more acclimated to tropical. And I remember
getting off the plane and looking around, thinking that there was going to be a fire fight. Of
course, I am in Da Nang. Da Nang is big by then, and I mean they are just occupied by tons of
American soldiers and sailors and airmen and all that business. So, we were there probably in
Camp Tien Sha. This is northern I Corps now. And I can remember they were sending us to
detachments. They had given a lot—we were in a…I think we were probably in an area about as
big as this room. It was outside and there were benches set up. And I remember myself and two
other swabbies getting over in the latter corner, way over there. Why? I had absolutely no idea
because, you know, where we were going and what we were going to do was already
determined. And as some of these guys stayed in Da Nang. Some of them were going out to an
NSA Detachment—Naval Support Activity Detachments. And I remember they had gotten down
to us. We were the only 3 guys there. All the rest of the guys had gotten up and took off to their
barracks. (00:26:24)
Veteran: And he said, “You 3 guys,” he says, “are going up to the northernmost detachments in
South Vietnam.” And I thought oh my God, you have got to be kidding me. The very last place
in the world that I wanted to go. So, 2 of them got—we got our orders and got our sea bags
packed and we went up by what they call a “ski lack”. It’s a YFU. And it’s a flat bottom scow.
�15
And I mean, you are going along the South China Sea, up north. And you are hitting all these
waves, like this, and it’s an overnight stint. And I remember we entered the Cua Viet River,
Dong Ha River. Some guys call it Dong Ha River, some guys call it Cua Viet River. But I
remember going inland. And Cua Viet was right on the mouth of the South China Sea and the
river. Two guys got dropped off there. One was a cook; I can’t remember what the other guy
was. And then for me, I am the last guy. And we are going up by YFU in the rivers. And I am
looking on the sides of the rivers, of course, and expecting to be hammered at any time. And we
got up to a little place called Dong Ha. Well, Dong Ha was quite a bit bigger than what I
envisioned because we were going—unbeknown to me at the time—we were stationed with the
Marine Corps. (00:28:07)
Veteran: Well, the ramp, or where these YFUs would pull up with—they would drop the ramp
and there were supplies onboard. And this area that they called the ramp was all cemented and
they had rough terrain forklifts that would come in, lift off the supplies. And it was more or less
a staging area for that. There—of course, it was all fenced off. Three strand barbed wire, you
know, all that business, with bunkers in certain areas. And I remember getting off and throwing
my sea bag on this 6x, this truck. And they proceeded to take me up to the base. And when we
had gotten up there, there was no one that I could visually see in the naval part of this. And I
remember them dropping off my sea bag and jumping off of this thing and looking around. And I
could see the mountains in the distance of Laos. And the truck had pulled away and there was no
one there. And I see these little dust devils out, these little, you know, along there. And I
remember looking up and I said, “This is the very last place on your green earth that I want to
be.” And so, I did happen to see someone. And of course, you had to go to the admin building to
check in and all that kind of stuff.
�16
Interviewer: So, when was this? Approximate date, yeah.
Veteran: This would be July of ’69.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:30:03)
Veteran: So, the war is still going pretty—
Interviewer: Oh yeah.
Veteran: --pretty hot and heavy. Or the conflict. To the guys that were there, it is a war. It’s not a
conflict.
Interviewer: Right, right.
Veteran: It’s not a conflict, it’s a war. Our duties—I was assigned to a certain section. They had
sections of people that would—basically the security people, because I was a gunner’s mate
striker wanting to be a, you know, a petty officer gunner’s mate, I was assigned to security. And
security there was—they had like I think it was 4 sections, Jim, if I am not mistaken, where we
would rotate. You’d have a day shift and a night shift and then you’d rotate to a night shift and
do a day shift, all that kind of stuff. And I remember being assigned to the ramp. Security on the
ramp. And you get to know the guys in your section pretty well because you are basically in the
same hooch, or the same housing. Which made sense. So, you’d become very tight with these
guys. But you lose your sanity when you are over there because these guys are crazy. They do
crazy stuff. And I laugh at it now, but I can remember—now, Dong Ha was one of the
northernmost areas in South Vietnam. And they would get rocketed pretty regularly. I think I had
been there for 2 or 3 days. And they had instructed me that in the middle—well, right by where
�17
my ramp assignment was, there was a trapdoor. And this trapdoor was probably…Well, it was a
4x8 sheet of plywood. (00:32:14)
Veteran: And underneath the hooch, they—the Seabees had dug trenches for us to be in too. And
I can recall probably the second—again, the second or third night—you hear this whoosh!
Whoosh! Whoosh! And the siren would go off, which meant we got incoming. And I can
remember the leading petty officer of my hooch saying, “Incoming!” And all I remember is
opening up that trap door and jumping into the trench. It was water in the trench. So, that was a
real eye-opener in the middle of the night. When the all-clear siren sounded, I remember getting
up off of there and the LP, or the leading petty officer, turned on the light. And he said, “Who
was the first one in the trench?” I said, “I don’t know. I guess it would be me.” He says, “Did
you rip the door off of the floor?” I said, “I don’t know.” I said, “I guess I probably did.” He
says, “Then you get your ass down there to the Seabees and have them come up here and fix it.”
“Now? Right now? It is in the middle of the night.” He said, “It doesn’t have to be right now,” he
said, “but…” And he was a little warm at me but…I can remember rats running across my chest.
And I hate rats and I hate them to this day. But that’s what I recall about that. Jim, we—various
times out on the ramp, we would get incoming down there where we got into—some of the guys
exchanged fire and all this other kind of stuff. We had fire fights. That’s where we got our
combat action ribbons. All of that. I do remember spending time…we had gotten a shipment of
black powder on a barge. (00:34:39)
Veteran: And we were coming into Tet. Kind of a stupid time to be moving black powder and
not removing it off. But for whatever reason, they had me standing watch: the mid watch on this
black powder. And I remember going out there, and I had 2 bandoliers of M-16 clips and all of
that stuff. And I had taken tracer rounds and did a couple of full clips of tracers in there. Because
�18
I had no idea, you know, if we were going to get attacked or whatever. Maybe this would scare
them or something, which it probably wouldn’t have anyway. And I remember standing watch
on this and I was screaming and yelling all night long and singing. And I’d take random shots,
you know, with the…And we had the XO on, which was a younger guy. And morning came and
I remember Lieutenant Beatty coming in. This—of course, this was secondhanded I am hearing
this, but I heard it from a guy that was in the admin building there. And he said, “Beatty came
on,” he says, “and he said he wanted to know who the lunatic was that was out on the barge.” So,
he told the XO, he says, “Go on out and,” they told, they said, “go on out and get Spyke and
bring him in.” He said, “With all due respect, sir,” he says, “you go out and get him.” He says,
“Well, what do you mean by that?” He says, “Do you hear him? This man is insane.” (00:36:25)
Veteran: And anyway, for whatever reason, I came back in, and they wanted to see me. And he
sat down. He says, “Spyke,” he said, “come on in. Sit down.” So, I did. He says, “What are you
doing?” I said, “I am protecting myself.” He said, “You’re just crazy.” He says, “You know,” he
said, “there could have been a whole frickin’ army out there of NVA,” he said, “you would have
stood them off.” And I said, “Well, that really wasn’t what it was about.” I said, “Here is the
thing,” I said, “the Vietnamese,” I said, “are like our American Indian. If you kill somebody that
is dinky dow,” I said, “or,” I said, “it is very bad for you to kill someone that is insane.” He said,
“Okay.” He says, “I got you.” And I said, “So, if I went out there,” and I said, “and I am
spending all this time on that black powder,” I said, “there wouldn’t have been enough of me,” I
said, “to put in a thimble,” I said, “should they have gotten me.” He says, “Well that’s really…”
he says, “That’s pretty smart.” I said, “I don’t know how smart it was.” I said, “But I am still
here.”
Interviewer: Yeah.
�19
Veteran: So…That’s one of the things that I remember. That and being blown off of the, you
know, by that 175 Long Tom we were talking about earlier.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, that was an off-camera story. So…
Veteran: Oh!
Interviewer: Why don’t you talk about that. Yeah.
Veteran: Okay. Alright. Well, we had—in this—on the ramp, they had a, what they called a point
bunker, which was next to the river. But it was out a ways. And because of its distance from the
rest of the, you know, the sailors there, we had two people that would man that bunker just
because of its logistics and all that business. (00:38:28)
Veteran: So, myself and this other swabbie jockey was in there one night. And because we had a
mid-watch, there were two guys out there, we decided that I’d sleep a few hours, he’d sleep a
few hours, vice versa. In that bunker—it was a double bunker, so in that bunker on the top part of
that bunker, there were fire ports. And the fire ports were generally I am going to say a foot by
three or four feet long. And we had them—there was one on this side and one on this side. And
then we had two in the middle that we could—that we had a—that we could defend from. And it
was my turn to sleep, and I remember, obviously going to sleep, but when I woke up, I found
myself on the floor with a bloody nose. And of course, I had no idea how I got there. I was still
disoriented. After I got my bearing, I asked this guy. I said, “What in the world happened?” He
said, “I probably should have woke you up.” He said, “But the Army pulled up with a 175 and I
am thinking it is probably from 16 feet, maybe 20 feet away.” He says, “And when they touched
it off,” he said, “you fell on the floor.” He said, “You got blown off of the sandbags.” And I am
thinking: what just happened? You know? (00:40:12)
�20
Veteran: Of course, you don’t report things like that. I mean, you are in a combat zone. I mean, I
figured this happened probably to everybody that was too close to a cannon that went off. But
later on, talking to the guys that I associate with now, some of those guys were on tracks that had
Long Toms. And I asked them that, “Are they powerful? Will the percussion of that knock a man
off of…?” And they said, “Oh my gosh, Wes, if you were 100 yards down from a 175,” he says,
“the percussion of that would knock you over like,” he says, “and you’re a big guy.” He said, “It
wouldn’t have any problem knocking you down at all.” So, he said, “You really got away kind of
lucky, you know, that you got blown off the sandbag but that is all that happened.” Well, of
course I lost my hearing because of that. But you don’t report that stuff. So, that was…
Interviewer: So, about how long did you spend doing security there?
Veteran: About 5 months. I think about 5 months. Let’s see…It was about 5 months because
flatter part of January of this following year now, February, January, I went to river security. My
billet had opened up. Dong Ha Naval Support Activity was being turned over to the Vietnamese.
We were no longer going to be a presence there.
Interviewer: Now, what was the basic purpose of the base during those first 5-6 months
when you were there? What was going on? You are security, but what’s the Navy doing
there?
Veteran: Well, the Navy is bringing in—we are bringing in supplies to the Marine Corps, the
Army, Air Force, all that business. Air Force generally flew in their own business, so we didn’t
get that. I shouldn’t even include them in that because I…But we would bring in supplies.
Everything from wristwatches to C-Rats, C-Rations. So, we would have everything from
�21
clothing to groceries to all of that business. And they would disperse that from there, wherever
they were going with it.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you have your own landing craft or river craft that were
based—
Veteran: Not at that time.
Interviewer: Don’t play with your microphone, please.
Veteran: Oh. Sorry.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay, so it is basically just a supply base at that point, yeah. (00:42:33)
Veteran: It’s a supply.
Interviewer: And you are parked there as security because they are waiting to assign you to
boats but then it hasn’t happened yet.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Well, it’s not only security against the Vietnamese, it is also security against our own
guys, you know. I hate to say that but that, you know, there was pilfering.
Interviewer: Okay, now on a base like that, I mean, did you have people using drugs or do
they have a way of getting drunk or anything else like that?
Veteran: Oh, absolutely. You know, it is kind of amazing when—of course, now we are dealing
with a lot of that those years following Vietnam. A lot of these guys were drunks; they turned
into drunks. Well, you know, they would bring it in by the pallet loads. You know? Beer and all
�22
that stuff. Of course, the officers would more or less get the, you know, the goods, the liquor, as
opposed to beer. But oh my goodness, yeah. Whatever you wanted. I didn’t know too much
about drugs there. I never got involved in drugging there, with the exception of I had a station
with a fellow from Tennessee. His name was Will Glidewell. I will never forget him. He is
deceased now. But I was always having trouble because during the—staying awake—because
during the day, we would fill sandbags and stuff like that. Well, then you’d go on watch at night.
Well, you are tired. And I would fight that. Oh my gosh, I would fight that. And by this time, this
was my section. (00:44:11)
Veteran: And I remember Will telling me, “Look,” he says, “I got some people from home that I
went to college with.” He dropped out of college to go to Vietnam. Go figure. And he said,
“Take a couple of these,” he says, “and it will keep you awake through the night.” Well, I
resisted that and resisted that and resisted that because drugs scared me. And coming from a
family whose mother was an RN, you know, we knew the danger in drugs. I finally took them.
They were called black widows and they were amphetamine. Boy, you want to talk about uppers.
Jim, oh my gosh. I was awake for three days. But boy, when you crash, you crash big time. And I
remember telling Will, I said, “Don’t you ever, ever ask me to try these again.” I said, “These
scared me to death.” Well, it’s about really all I can remember, Jim, about…
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: …about that. Well, let me tell you one thing. We were going—we were coming off of a
watch down there and we were on our way back in a 6x and I remember being overrun. And I
can remember that—now, this is between the ramp, which was about 3 miles away from the
base, and I can remember getting underneath the 6x, up over the axles. I am a tall guy now, but I
am only like 206 pounds, and I was 6’4’’ then, so I am about that big around. And but I
�23
remember getting up over the axle and I remember that there was fire fighting going on. I
remember black pajama bottoms running by the truck. (00:46:25)
Veteran: And then I hear machine gun fire, which is our machine gun fire because you can tell
the difference between Chinese communist weapons and ours. And it died down. I mean, it was
quiet. So, I crawled out from underneath the truck. The other guys had come who had been gone
over in the brush. And there was an Army duster that was there. And a duster is a—like a 6x with
a set of—some of them even had 40-millimeter guns mounted on them. But this one I think had a
quad 50 on it.
Interviewer: 50 caliber machine guns, which our powerful enough.
Veteran: Oh, absolutely. And generally, there were 4 of them in a quad 50, so quite a bit of fire
power there. And boy, you want to talk about scared then because that really could have been a
casualty then, particularly when you’re ambushed because you have no idea when it is coming,
you know. That’s the element of surprise.
Interviewer: Okay, so basically, it was possible for—now, do you think these were North
Vietnamese sappers that came in or…?
Veteran: No, I don’t think sappers or North Vietnamese—
Interviewer: Or is this Viet Cong?
Veteran: I think it was Viet Cong.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
�24
Interviewer: And was it common for them to come into that area? Or was that kind of
attack pretty rare?
Veteran: It was pretty rare for us. You know, one of our biggest allies there were the kids
because we would always give them food, you know, and we’d chat with them through the wire,
you know, and all this business. And being in security, of course, you walk the wire all the time,
you walk the fence all the time, so you would, you know, you’d talk to these kids. And
oftentimes, they would tell you they couldn’t pronounce my name Spyke. They would call me
Sa-byke. Sa-byke. And they’d come up and say, “Sa-byke, the VC come tonight. You watch.” Of
course, they spoke broken—
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. (00:48:23)
Veteran: --English. And but they were a tremendous ally to us. Of course, we gave them food,
we joked around with them, made them laugh. And they made us laugh. But they would let us
know if something was going to come down. They said, “They may come, they may not.” They
said, “But…” one of the things the kids would tell us is, “Wait for the dark of the sky.” No
moon. You know, watch for that. Or if it is raining at night, when it is wet, because you don’t
hear them, you know. And so, they were a real asset to our living through that ordeal. But to
remember all the things that went on there…
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you got us to the first half of your—in Vietnam—is kind of
spent doing that kind of work.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay. So, now the orders come. They are turning that Dong Ha base over to
the Vietnamese. And now, where do you go and what do you do?
�25
Veteran: I remember that my CO came, called me into his office. He said, “Spyke,” he says, “we
are going to be leaving Vietnam.” He says, “We are going down to Da Nang,” he said, “because
we are in shipping, we are in Lighter G.” And he said, “I see that in your chit,” which you can
see that in my orders, that—your chit is a request. That’s what they call it in the Navy. “That you
wanted to go to riverboats. You are a gunner’s mate,” he says, “however, your billet was not
open at the time and we needed qualified people here. So,” he said, “that’s why we didn’t let you
go.” And I said, “I read that on the chit, sir.” (00:50:20)
Veteran: He said, “I am going to give you a choice.” He says, “You can—your billet is open
down river at Cua Viet or why don’t you come down with us. We will party.” He said, “We are
going to be in Da Nang, dude,” he says, “it’s party city. We will just party down for the rest of
our tour and we will go home.” And I said, “No. No sir, I’d really rather go.” In one of my
stupider moments. I know there isn’t such a thing as stupider but regardless of that, in one of my
stupider moments, Jim, I said, “No sir,” I said, “this is what we trained to do. This is what I want
to do.” Which, really, when I first came in the Navy, that’s the last thing that I wanted to do. So,
he said, “Are you—do you know what you are doing? Are you sure you want to do this?” he
said, “Do you know what those guys do?” And I said, “Well, I hear them and,” I said, “I can see
them downriver when…” he said, “But they…” he said, “If that’s what you want to do then so be
it. I will sign your orders.” So, he did, and I went down got assigned to an LCPL. They had taken
the PBRs, the—really, the work horses for the—was a fiberglass boat. We restored one in
Muskegon today, you know. And anyway, my boat was not a PBR, it was an LCPL, which was a
World War 2 converted rivercraft. The first riverine people there were the Coast Guard and they
had LCPLs. (00:52:19)
�26
Veteran: They later came out with a fiberglass version, but we had a metal version. And we had a
50 caliber, fore and aft, 60 calibers on—you know—M-60s on the side. Plus, our small arms
which consisted of 2 M-79 grenade launchers. I had an M-16, 12-gauge shotgun, and an M-14
with a night scope.
Interviewer: So, that’s a conventional rifle.
Veteran: It’s a conventional rifle but set up for night and sniper—
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: --stuff. My job was to make sure that the guns were operational, that they were kept
clean, that we had the ammunition we needed onboard, for any type of thing, whether we were
going to use an M-79 grenade launcher or whether we were going to use the 50 calibers. The 50
caliber was a very, very good weapon. I mean, it’s a very old weapon but it is…Browning did his
job when he designed that. But and we used that many times.
Interviewer: Now, were you assigned to an individual craft or did you—
Veteran: Yes, I was assigned—they went by—the PBRs were boat numbers. Ours were call
numbers. The base was Big Dance and our boat, my boat, was Sierra. So, when they called us,
you know, Big Dance, Sierra, and we’d call back Sierra, you know. It was a—where the PBRs
were a twin water jet, double-engined rivercraft, with a draft of probably 9 inches to a foot on
full power, under way, whereas the LCPLs had a draft probably about 3 feet. Single prop, single
engine. Diesel. (00:54:39)
Veteran: In a way, it was a better craft than PBRs. Not so much where I was, but in the delta,
PBRs—the engines are hooked to huge jacuzzi pumps. Well, in order to get the jet craft like you
�27
see on the kids driving them on the lakes today, there is a suction that is on the bottom of that.
And these engines turn the pumps to—it sucks in the water into the impellers and the impellers
shoot it out through nozzles, which are controlled. They don’t have rudders; they control them
with the jet nozzles, where we had a rudder. The bad part about the PBRs is that the Vietnamese
knew this, and they would cut up weed beds, send them down river, and they’d get caught up
into the suction thing and they are dead in the water. Whereas, we didn’t have the speed that they
did. I think top end, Jim, probably about 17 knots, about 23 miles an hour. Whereas the PBRs
could hit 29, 30, 32 miles an hour; that’s cooking pretty good.
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:56:07)
Veteran: So, with that being said, it wouldn’t make any difference whether we had weed beds or
not. The screws on our thing would just chew them up and, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, we weren’t as fast as they were. PBRs had twin 50s, single 50 mounted aft, M-19
grenade launcher, automatic grenade launcher on theirs, and then they probably have an M-60 as
well, where we had the 60s on the side and a 50fore and aft. So, fire power, they may have had a
little more fire power than we did but when you are shooting 50 caliber, that’s a lot of fire power.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: So…
Interviewer: Now, what kind of reception do you get when you arrive at the base? Because
you are kind of the new guy coming in.
Veteran: I can’t remember. It couldn’t have been traumatic because I don’t remember it.
�28
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They just assign you a rack and boat and you are to report there at such and such a time
for a briefing or debriefing or whatever.
Interviewer: Yeah. And you had been in country for 6 months, so you maybe looked like it
by then.
Veteran: Oh yeah. You are starting to—but it—you go into a point of…you are seasoned for that
job and now you are breaking into something new. Even though you are in river security, it’s a
completely different environment. I mean, there are no sandbags to protect you there. You are
just an absolute sitting duck in the middle of duck season, if you will. But with that being said,
there were boats that got dressed down pretty good…not so much as in 1968, during Tet, which
is understandable. And the PBRs were the ones that were picked on the most. Why? I don’t
know. But they seemed to be picked on the most. Again, I can only remember a couple of days
or weeks that I was there, Jim. And it was River Division 543, PBR. And they used to have swift
boats there as well, but they were long gone before I got there. Swift boats being PCF: Patrol
Craft Fast. (00:58:39)
Veteran: But they too had a large draft. So, for river patrolling, that’s not a good thing. That river
was controlled by tides as well. So, you had to watch what you were doing there. I remember one
time at night, we got caught onto a sandbar. And we just couldn’t get off of that thing. So, I
finally had to jump in the river with a line and try and pull us off of that sandbar. I remember one
night we were motoring up and it—for a night patrol. And there were two times—there were 12hour patrols. We’d call it port and starboard: one was night, and one was day. And they were 4hour patrols or longer. It could be longer. If there was a boat that was down or something, it
�29
could get into a 24-hour patrol or whatever. But we didn’t have a lot of river to patrol. Probably
10, maybe 11, miles. And back then, there was a curfew on the Vietnamese. (01:00:08)
Veteran: When the sun set, you were not to be on the rivers. And this one night, we were
motoring upriver and just kind of barely cruising. And we happened to see what they call a
bumboat. A bumboat is a sampan. We’d call it a bumboat because it would come around the
boats when they came in and they’d bum stuff, cigarettes, stuff, off the other guys. And we saw
this bumboat coming downriver and it was dark. I mean, we could have shot them. We could
have opened up on them because you have no idea. I mean, they could be loaded with the, you
know, explosives to get rid of the boats or whatever. But I remember there were torches on both
ends of that bumboat. And we had another boat come up with what we call traffic cop, which
was—generally had an officer onboard. I was down below. And I think I was napping or
whatever. And our boat captain said, “Well, go on down there, grab some Z’s and…” you know.
And I remember him telling me that the traffic cop came up and tied up alongside of us. And he
said, “Wake up, Spyke.” So, he woke me up and brought me up on deck. They said, “You have
corpsman training.” And I said, “No, I don’t.” They said, “It says in your record that you had
corpsman training.” He said—but I said, “It doesn’t matter. The boat that is coming up here right
now,” he says, “Has got a pregnant woman on it.” He says, “You’re going to look at her.” I says,
“And do what?” And he said, “Look, I don’t think she’s going to pop a kid yet,” or something
similar to that. An officer generally wouldn’t talk like that. But I says, “So, what are you—what
do you want me to do?” They said, “Well, we can’t bring her on to—” our base was next to a
Vietnamese Navy—what they called a junk base. They had junk walls. (01:02:42)
Veteran: They said, “We are going to put you on the bank,” he says, “and we are going to take
these other two guys in with us, get them clearance,” he says, “and then we will come back to get
�30
you.” And I said, “Well, but—wait, wait. Wait.” I said, “You’re going to put me where?” They
said, “Get over on the bank, Spyke, with this woman. And we will come back and get you.”
“What am I supposed to do with her?” They said, “Just be with her. Protect her.” I am thinking
now, we are in hostile area up here, Jim. I mean, we’re—the NVA is not far away. You can see
their campfires at night. So, here I am on this riverbank with this woman, and she is as big as a
house. And she’s holding on to my fingers, my two fingers. These two fingers, because I had an
M-16 in this. And she’s going through labor. And she’s, “Ohhh!” like that. And I am thinking oh
my gosh, I said, “I am in hostile territory and she’s screaming out here.” You know? Black as
pitch again. And you’re here, all you have is a sampan, a pregnant woman, and she’s going
through labor pains. (01:04:10)
Veteran: And I can feel for her, but I am scared to absolute death. And I am thinking—because
you’re alone. They didn’t—both boats took off. So, they left me with a sampan. Of course, they
doused the torches, you know, so we are black. Anyway, she didn’t deliver, thank God. And I
mean literally, thank God that she didn’t deliver. They came back up, of course, and put her
onboard the chug boat and brough her back down to the base. Apparently, she was breeched or
something. Or she was going to have problems and… So anyway, got back onboard there and I
thought well, you ought to get a Silver Star for this one. But that didn’t happen. But you
remember things like that. I mean, that was one event there. There were several.
Interviewer: Okay. So, now you are up at the base at Cua Viet, and you are now in these
converted landing craft conducting patrols. What types of missions were you carrying out?
Veteran: Basically, our job was deny the waterways to the enemy for contraband, whatever they
were running. Arms generally. And/or food supplies. That was basically our mission. However,
we would do extractions of troops, insertions of some troops. Basically, being in a special ops
�31
unit, which we didn’t know at the time. We would insert Special Forces personnel. We would
work with Green Beret. We would work with the recon Marines, SEALs. We didn’t do too many
SEALs. But Army snipers, Marine Corps snipers. (01:06:34)
Veteran: And then of course, after their mission, you know, we would—at such and such a time,
at such and such a location, so many clicks upriver, we would pick them up at such and such a
time. Sometimes that was peaceful. Sometimes it wasn’t peaceful. For the most part, I can
honestly say that it was peaceful. I do remember being in—well, just a little thing that goes along
with this—I can remember being in Washington D.C. and we were going through—well, with
these veterans, other veterans—we were going through the Vietnam part of the American history
part of Smithsonian. And I was bringing my—to go into the Vietnam era room, you have to walk
through the fuselage of a plane. And when you get in there, of to the righthand side there is a
Dustoff helicopter or a medical helicopter. Mannequins are putting a stretcher onboard and there
are various artifacts from Vietnam in there. And I was explaining to my wife, “This was…” and,
“This was a, you know, Dustoff helicopter. Chopper.” There were 4 gentlemen in there with red
satin jackets on and they had such and such Ranger outfit and all that stuff. And one of them
looked over at me and he says, “Sir,” he said, “were you in Vietnam?” I said, “Yes, sir. I was.”
And he said, “Well,” he says, “where were you?” And I—or “What branch of the service were
you in?” I say, “United States Navy.” And he said, “Oh,” he said, “So, you were in, you know,
shipping and all that stuff?” I said, “Ah, no.” He said, “Well, what did you do?” (01:08:36)
Veteran: I said, “I was a river rat.” He said, “What year were you there?” I said, “’69, ’70.” He
says, “Oh my gosh.” He says, “We ought to get down and kiss this guy’s feet.” And of course,
these guys peeking—got their attention with that. He said, “Why? Why?” I said, “Why would
you say that?” and he said, “We were under a horrendous fire fight in Northern I Corps.” He
�32
says, “The Dong Ha, Cua Viet area.” He says, “That’s where you were at?” and I said, “Yes.”
And he said, “They were unable to come in and get us.” And this guy says, he says, “I remember
this boat coming around the point,” he says, “and they were just blazing.” He says, “His guns
were just blazing.” He says, “They came up onto the—they beached it, grabbed us, pulled us
onboard, took off,” he says, “and that rear 50,” he says, “was just singing.” He says, “Was that
you?” I said, “I don’t know.” I said, “It could have been.” He says, “Oh my gosh. Thank you so
much.” And you have to think, Jim, I said, “What were these guys thinking?” In their minds, for
a split second, they were going to die.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And you realize how important that was to them. We were brothers.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: You know, at that time, the joking around, being a ground pounder and you being a
squid or a fly boy and a—all that, or jarhead—all that stuff stops. You’re brothers then. And it
isn’t that you are fighting for the red, white, and blue: you are fighting to get your brothers out of
there. (01:10:28)
Interviewer: Okay. So, did you have fire fights like that occasionally?
Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah, occasionally, yeah. Well, probably more than occasionally. More than I
wanted.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you had mentioned off camera another incident that is worth
noting. And you took one of these teams coming back and one of them having a strange
aroma about it.
�33
Veteran: Oh my gosh. That was…We were to meet a reconnaissance Marine. Recon Marines.
Again, so many clicks upriver at such and such a point, at such and such a time. And we had
gone up there and they were on time. They were waiting for us. And we pulled up and our boat
wasn’t like a PBR. We couldn’t get—if we beached it way up there, we wouldn’t have been able
to get it off. So, we were back a little ways. And I remember pulling these Marines onboard. And
I pulled this one fellow up and sat him down. And I remember we came off the bank, headed
back to Cua Viet. And I remember this sickening, putrid aroma coming from this guy sitting next
to me. And I turned to him, and I said, “Dude, what is that smell?” and he said—and he had a
bandolier, a necklace, of ears that they had cut off the Vietnamese. Now, if it was a fresh cut,
Jim, it would have been one thing. (01:12:25)
Veteran: But that rancid smell? He had to have these on for a while. And he said, “We just came
on to whatever the North Vietnamese would call their patrols or whatever.” And he said, “They
didn’t have anybody standing guard.” He said, “So, we killed them and cut off their ears.” And I
am thinking to myself: what have we turned into? I mean seriously, what have we turned into?
And it may not necessarily been right at that moment but you have a chance to process that on
the way to the base or whatever. And it was the same philosophy: if they don’t have all their
parts, they don’t go to Vietnamese heaven or Buddha or whatever that is. And I thought what
have we turned into? And those thoughts…as you go back in time, you wonder about that.
Would these guys have done anything like that if they wouldn’t have been in that situation? I
mean, you have to think about that stuff, Jim, and I do to this day. You know? What did I turn
into there? Because like we said before, you know, taking the lives of men, particularly those
where you see their face and you have the decision of killing them or allowing them to live for
�34
possibly a split second or whatever to kill you, that decision lies in a second. And sometimes not
even that. And it’s a hell of a thing to take a man’s life. (01:14:33)
Interviewer: Alright. Now, most of the situations when you are firing, would you even be
able to see who you were firing at? Or was it usually gun flashes or…?
Veteran: Well, I—the two that I did were in the river, putting in a percussion mine—a pressure
mine, I mean. And what would happen is that they would sink these two below the surface of—
probably a foot or so—just below the surface. And when the boats would run over them, of
course, it would push that trigger down and blow the boats up. One of our mail carriers, as a
matter of fact, was in one of those boats at one time and he almost died. He survived. He got
thrown clear of the boat. So, I didn’t—this particular night that that incident happened, I didn’t
see them. We had come around the point of the river and we were—it was like a snake. And we
were going up toward Dong Ha, as a matter of fact. And it just so happens the two Vietnamese
trainee gunner’s mates that I had on my boat happened to be looking in the starlight scope, which
is—I don’t know if you are familiar with those or not, but they magnify the light so that you can
see at night. And they happened to spot them. And they called me there and I verified that, you
know, what they were doing. And I told the boat captain, and I said, “You know, we can’t let—I
need to…” Well, anyway…we killed them and—I killed them. And in a sense, it is a thing that
you have to do, but in another sense: what have I become? You know? So, that was another
incident that you never forget. (01:16:48)
Interviewer: Sure.
Veteran: One day we were going—we were going to go out—water was a big thing because
we’d get this water and it had so much chlorine in it because of the bugs and all that business.
�35
We were going out seaside to the gunline, which we called the gunline which was our destroyers
and all that stuff, 3 miles out. No big deal. But what we—we were going over the bar. Do you
know what the—the bar is a sandbar—
Interviewer: Sandbar at the river mouth?
Veteran: --at the river mouth. And it can get pretty wild out there. If you have ever seen what the
bar is like in the…I am trying to think of the name of the river. It’s what they train the Coast
Guard in. It escapes me right now, but waves are huge. They are just absolutely huge, and I
remember going—we were going up to go out to get fresh water and our boat captain decided to
turn around. He said, “It’s too rough.” I was up in the forward mount, holding on to the butterfly,
the handles of the 50, just to hold on. And he had made the turn on a wave and as we were
coming down, we surfed down. And now, that boat was 32, 33 feet long. We weren’t at the
bottom of that yet. And we surfed that down and I am thinking we must have mellowed out
because we didn’t go under the water, but it came up over the prow. (01:18:39)
Veteran: And brother, if that doesn’t make you a believer. Because in that surf, you wouldn’t
survive in that surf. I mean, we didn’t have life vests on. All we had on—we didn’t even have
our flak jackets on, which would have been detrimental anyway if you would have fallen in the
water. So, that was another incident. But there are times—and I don’t know whether other sailors
thought about this—but there are times, Jim, when you just get so tired of it, you think: if I jump
in the water here, it’s only like a 7,000-mile swim. Serious. I am serious. And the South China
Sea is loaded with hammerhead sharks. But you get so sick of it and tired of it. And you think: I
want to go home.
�36
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you were mentioning having Vietnamese trainees on the boat with
you—
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: So, were you starting to—you working a lot with Vietnamese personnel?
Veteran: Yeah. I had two of these guys. Phuc and Phan were their names. I don’t know if that
was their first name or their last name or whatever it was. Phuc and Phan. And they were
gunner’s mate trainees. And we attached ourselves very closely. And I can remember picking up
these squirts because I’d have them under both arms. And they—of course, they’d tease me, and
they’d laugh. And most of the time, I couldn’t understand what they were saying. But they’d say,
“Sa-byke, boocoo mop,” which meant ‘big’. Very big. You know? And you know, you’d tickle
these guys and all that stuff. And we became very close. And I have often wondered what
happened to them when we left. (01:20:45)
Veteran: But yeah, they’d—you’d train them on, you know, because they were going to inherit
all of our stuff. Our boats, our armaments, everything. They were going to inherit that. So, they
should know how to operate it, you know. And that’s what my job was: to train them.
Interviewer: Okay. And were they learning anything?
Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. They were—the Vietnamese are quick studies. They are very
smart, for the most part. And there may be a lot of GIs that don’t agree with me on that, but you
know, for the…for what they had, they were fierce fighters. And justifiably so. We were in their
�37
country. And I am not trying to make an un-American statement there. I am glad that I served in
our military, but probably not in that event.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know…
Interviewer: Aside from the pregnant woman, did you have much contact with civilians at
all?
Veteran: Once in a while I’d remove a fishhook from one of the fishermen out there. They’d—
and they used a tobacco to—one of them was in the lip, I remember one time, and I—we had
cutters onboard because you never wanted to pull it back through with the barb. So, you
know…But this one guy had one caught in his lip. And I remember removing it but I cut the line
and pulled it through the other, because they are very poor. You have to understand that. They
were very poor. (01:22:36)
Veteran: So, to buy these kind of fishhooks—we are not talking about the little fishhooks here,
we are talking about hooks like this. And I remember cutting the line and pulling that through his
lip, through the other way. And then he—just without even thinking, Jim, he had tobacco there or
whatever that he was—I assumed it was tobacco. And he just put it on and thanked me for it and
they went about their way. Oftentimes, if we had the patrol where we were in the harbor in front
of the base, we’d be checking what they would call “con cucs”, or their identifications. And we’d
call them over, you know, which means ‘come over here now.’ And they’d show us their
identifications. Oftentimes, they would give us fresh shrimp. And I mean, this shrimp was still
swimming around. And they were—it was a funny thing about those people. They had nothing
but they shared nothing. Does that make sense?
�38
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know, it didn’t make any difference if they had—if they had one shrimp, they’d
cut it in half and give you half. That’s just the way they were. I can’t say that I fell in love with
them, but I fell in love with the peasants’ philosophy, if that makes sense.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But you didn’t have them working on the baser with you or—
Veteran: They did.
Interviewer: Okay. (01:24:13)
Veteran: They did work on the base. They would come in and they would clean the hooch and
stuff like that. Not so much in river security. We didn’t have that there. In Dong Ha they would.
They would have them do laundry and stuff like that. But when we were on the river patrol boat
base, when it was an ATSB, they weren’t on there at all.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Okay. Now, are there other particular incidents from the time
at Cua Viet that stand out for you? Either on missions or in the base or…?
Veteran: Oh…
Interviewer: Funny or serious.
Veteran: We had a boat captain that came onboard. Came out of the fleet. He was a new guy. An
FNG, what they called them, I am not—a Frickin’ New Guy. And he came onboard. He was a
Bosun’s mate. And second class petty officer, I think. I can’t remember his name now, but I
remember he came in out of the fleet, and he was going to—and most of us were well-seasoned
by this time. I mean, we were—had been on the rivers for—I think I was in probably my 11th
month maybe. And we were on a patrol, again, a night patrol. There was an island that was north
�39
of the base but west. And we had—he had decided that he wanted to patrol this. The
northwesternmost of the island. We were turning around, heading into—back to the main river.
And we received small arm fire. (01:26:18)
Veteran: And this guy being new was looking at the map at the dash of our boat. It was in red
lights, so it didn’t impede your vision, your night vision. And he was calling in Army artillery.
Now, you got to remember, this is a village. Civilians are in this village. He’s going to call in
Army artillery. And keep in mind too, Jim, we are motoring out. We are in constant motion. And
he gets on the map, and he calls our position—our position—in. And you can hear this coming in
and whoosh! Right in the back of the boat. I am going to say—it was in the water, thank God,
but right in the back of the boat, probably…I am going to say 50 yards. And I remember our
mechanic, our engineman, getting up and he was already at a machine gun mount. And I
remember him going over to him and ripping the microphone out of his hands. And I remember
him saying, “Give me that!” And he called in and had them stop the firing. And of course, the
boat captain wanted to know what was going on, you know, and he said, “Never ever call in our
position.” He said, “The Army will put that in your back pocket.” He said, “They will calculate,”
he said, “they will put it right in your back pocket.” He says, “These guys are that good.” So
anyway, he was…He kind of got reprimanded from the engineman. But he wasn’t a very good
boat captain. He was a guy that would assign duties to the boat, painting and stuff like that, and
he’d go up to the hooch and go to sleep, where the rest of the crew would be down there turning
to. (01:28:33)
Veteran: And we had an ensign there that was similar to that. And he had talked to me, and he
says—I had come in from the night patrol. He says, “Spyke, I want you to work with the ship
fitters here. We are going to mount a new mortar on here, a 60-millimeter mortar.” I said, “On
�40
the boat?” He said, “Well of course on the boat. Where else?” And I said, “The superstructure
will never hold the recoil of that.” He said, “Don’t worry about it. It’s a trigger fired mortar.” He
says, “No big deal.” I said, “It won’t hold it.” He says, “Spyke, if I want you to mount a field
Howitzer…” I remember him to this day, “You’ll do it.” And I said, “Yes, sir.” So, I worked on
it with the welder. Ship fitters are the welders and all that stuff. They mounted the transom on
there. We are going to be…we are going to be enlightened before we go out on a night patrol.
We are going to get training. So, they had put the round in there and of course this—I remember
our ensign looked like Howdy Doody. I mean, he had freckles all over, the glasses like that, and
you know, that kind of a smile, and you know, and all this stuff. And his name was Ensign
Mayer. I will never forget him. And he said, “We are going to have a demonstration and all this
stuff.” Well, I am in the back of the pack. I am in the back of some guys. And they put the round
in there. Like I said, it was trigger fire. And they trigger fired that thing and the whole transom
went like that. And I began to laugh, and I said, “I told you so! I told you so!” Well, I—as a
result of that—I got EMT, which is extra military—EMI: extra military instruction, which means
that I had to go out and I had to burn the crappers. Are you familiar with that term? (01:30:37)
Interviewer: Yes, but you should explain it for the benefit of the audience.
Veteran: Well, for the benefit of the audience, we have 2 or 3 whole outhouse that would have
55-gallon drums cut in half and slid, or in thirds, and slid underneath these holes for the
outhouse. And when you did your duty in there, when it became full, we would pull this out and
they were full of kerosine. And we would torch that and burn the waste. I think I got that duty for
2 months, besides the rest of all of that. And…But it was worth it. It was worth it. I got caught
one time surfing behind the boat by Commander—Lieutenant Commander—Nicholson. And we
were out one day, and it was horribly hot because there I think the highest we had in our hooch
�41
was like 123? Something like that. Because they are Quonset huts, Jim, and they heat—they are
like an oven. They heat up in the summer. And but we were out on day patrol. And I said, “Hey
guys,” I said, “let’s throw in a life preserver, a life ring. I will hold onto it.” I said, “You can it
and,” I says, “I’ll hold onto it.” I said, “If it gets too much, I will just let loose.” “Okay.” So, like
I said, these guys are nuts anyway. And so, we did that. And of course, my idea, I was the first
one to do it. And he motored out until we had the slack out of the line. (01:32:25)
Veteran: And then I just—I had my arm like this. I just told him to can it. So, he did. And you
are going along, you know, in the water and it formed a bubble over me so you could breathe in
there and you’re doing almost like a body surfing behind this boat. Unbeknown to us at the time:
Lieutenant Commander Nicholson was flying over to check the rivers on that day, and he had
never did it before. Why he did it this time, I have no idea. Divine intervention or something
maybe. Lord probably thinking well, this guy is really stupid. He needs to be caught or
something. Whatever. Anyway, when we got back in, the person from administration came down
as we were docking. And he says, “Commander Nicholson wants to see you guys.” Okay. We
had no idea that—what was going to happen. We got in his office, and he said, “Close the door
boys. I want to talk to you.” So, we close the door. And he said to us, he said, “Funny thing
happened to me today.” He says, “I was going along the rivers,” he says, “and checking the
riverboats, seeing what you guys were doing.” He says, “And I came upon this boat,” and he
says, “and there was a wake behind it like a bubble.” He said, “Almost like a whale or
something, or a dolphin, was following this boat.” He said, “And the funny thing was about it…”
and he had to have this all set up in his mind. He says, “The funny thing about it,” he says, “is
that this dolphin or whatever it was never got any further away from the boat and it never got any
closer to the boat.” (01:34:31)
�42
Veteran: He said, “Did you guys see anything like that?” He says, “I think it was your boat.”
Well, he knew for sure it was our boat. And boat captain looked over at me and he said—he says,
“Spyke,” he says—or Commander Nicholson says, “Spyke,” he says, “do you know anything
about that?” I said, “I don’t remember seeing a whale or anything behind our boat.” And he said,
“Well, let’s cut the crap.” He said, “Do you guys know that there is a war going on here?” And
of course, I said, “Well yeah sir, I know.” He said, “If you weren’t one of my best gunner’s
mate,” he said, “I’d have you’re a-s-s tacked up on the wall.” I said, “I have no excuse. It was
hot.” He says, “I don’t care.” He says, “But there is a war on, guys. No more.” He said, “Do I
make myself clear?” I said, “Crystal.” He says, “Okay. You are dismissed. Remember: I am
going to be watching you guys.”
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Okay.
Interviewer: Okay. So, was your unit sort of small enough that somebody like that
lieutenant commander knows you by name? Or did he just—
Veteran: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there was only I think 61 guys at the time left on the base. He knew
who the crews were. Remember, there was only a crew of 4 guys.
Interviewer: Right. (01:36:17)
Veteran: You had a boat captain, you had a seaman that would take care of most of the deck
stuff, the lines, the ropes, you know, that kind of stuff. You had an engineman whose primary job
was the engines. And then of course, you had a gunner’s mate. Now, when you are in combat,
everyone is assigned a firearm. And the boat captain generally, you know, rocks the boat. He’s
the one that is what we would call the coxswain of the boat. He drives it. And so, I think there
�43
were…I am going to say maybe 8 crews that were still there. Now, also, Jim, you had
minesweeps, which were MSMG. Have you seen the war movies where the front of the thing
drops down and the boat drops down and the guys get off?
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Excuse me. Those are river sweeps. And they would have two of those on each side of
the river and it would come back to a float which would drag the river for mines. We did have
those there as well. In fact, another guy from Muskegon was on a sweep. So, you know, you had
incidents like that. It wasn’t all full-time combat. It just wasn’t. So, we did have some good times
there. Not—few and far between but nonetheless there were some good times there. But…Go
ahead.
Interviewer: I was just going to ask with good times, did you get an R and R while you
were there? Did you get to leave the base? (01:38:12)
Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, I went on R and R. I never went outside of Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I could have but I didn’t. In fact, one guy even said that he’d pay my way to go with
him down to Australia, which is one of the R and R places. And I said, “No. No, no, no. I don’t
want to do that.” So, because I was crazy enough probably to not even come back. I would go
out in the bush and stay there, you know, in the outback. But anyway, no I didn’t do that, but I
went down to R and R, and I made the mistake of—this was kind of like an R and R combined
with the corpsmen had sent me down there for dental. And I said, “Well, why don’t I take a few
more days and just do R and R as well?” They said, “Well, if you want to do that, that’s fine.”
So, I had contacted my old CO from at Dong Ha. Because he had told me, “If you ever want to
�44
come down, don’t come down by ship.” He says, “I’ll send a chopper up to get you.” I am
thinking well, that’s pretty cool. So, I contacted him, and he says, “Don’t get on a ‘ski lack’.” He
says, “I am going to send up the coachmen to come get you. They are going to—they make runs
up there and Cua Viet is just a little bit out of their way. They will do it.” So, they did. And I
had—I got onboard this Huey. And these two guys, the pilot and, the copilot, were laughing back
and forth. They were chatting while I was getting in and I remember the copilot looking back
into the chopper and he says, “Buckle up, squid.” So, I did. (01:40:10)
Veteran: You know? And then my gosh, Jim, I got to tell you: that was a ride from absolute hell.
These guys took off and they are laughing. I mean, they are “Ahhh!” and all this other stuff. And
they are chasing Vietnamese. Now remember we are on the South China Sea now. So, it is like
being out at Pere Marquette in Muskegon. Sugar sands. And they are chasing the Vietnamese.
Now remember, these guys are only about 6 or 8 feet off of the ground and they are shooting
along. And now, the fastest I have been in Vietnam here for this past year has been maybe 30
miles an hour, 25 miles an hour, at best. These guys are doing 100—over 100 knots. And I mean
now you got a feel for how fast you are going because you are that close to the ground. And they
are laughing, and these guys can turn these things on a dime, these Hueys. And they are going up
and they are making a sweep and they are turning this thing around on a dime and my stomach is
up into my throat and I am sicker than a dog. And these guys are really laughing. They finally
get me down to Da Nang and I am at Camp Tien Sha. I spent my time there. My CO went out
and got me so drunk that I was throwing up green bile fluid. Because he knew all the speakeasies
and all this stuff, you know. All the illegal places. When you are in shipping, you get to know all
that stuff. Well, he had made arrangements for me to get a ride back up there. Up back up to Cua
�45
Viet. Lo and behold, I get on the chopper and these two same clowns are in there, this pilot and
copilot. Same guys. (01:42:09)
Veteran: Same thing. They finally set me down. And I said, “You know,” I said, “With your rank
and everything being considered,” I said, “I’d like to take you on a boat ride sometime.” I said,
“Come on up some time,” I said, “let me give you a boat ride.” They said, “See you later, squid.”
And away they went. Never saw them again. But they knew exactly what they were doing. And
yeah, you have to laugh about it now but back then I was pretty warm about that. Yeah, things
like that sort of as we talk, things like that surface.
Interviewer: Sure. Alright. Now are there other particular things that stand out for you,
before we move you back out of Vietnam?
Veteran: There probably are but I am not thinking of them.
Interviewer: Okay. But you think we have kind of characterized pretty well what you were
doing during that year in Vietnam?
Veteran: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. So, when do you leave?
Veteran: I left…When did I, gosh, when did I get back…? I got back in July of 1970.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: We came back on July 3rd because I remember there was a guy that was getting off the
plane. And of course, there were firecrackers and stuff going off and all that stuff. And this guy
got off and he’s huddled down like he is dodging bullets. And come to find out, this guy was
stationed in Cam Ranh Bay, which was an R and R place for—
�46
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah.
Veteran: And he was an admin. You know? Phony guy. And anyway, we got into…trying to
think of…
Interviewer: Did you go to San Francisco or Seattle or somewhere else?
Veteran: No, I went to Long Beach.
Interviewer: Okay. (01:44:11)
Veteran: I flew into San Bernadino. Went from there to Long Beach to separate. They were
going to separate us. So…which was cool. I was all about that. And it was a long weekend
because of the 4th of July. Most of the base was going to be shut down, other than, you know,
getting your food, stuff like medical and all that stuff. And I remember this guy from—he came
out of the administration building. I think he was a yeoman, which was a Remington Raider. And
he was—he said, “What are you doing, you know, over the weekend?” I said, “I am just waiting
to get out of here.” He says, “Well, why don’t you…” he says, “You know, they got a thing like
they have in New Jersey where they have the, you know, the Ferris wheels and all this other
stuff.”
Interviewer: An amusement park kind of thing.
Veteran: Yeah, it was an amusement park, but it was…Yeah, but it was a smaller one, but they
had arcades there. And he says, “If you’re not doing anything,” he says, “let’s go on in and screw
around with that.” I said, “Okay. I am not doing anything else.” So, I went in with him and we
went into this arcade, and I was playing pinball, which I never really play, you know, but I was
playing pinball. And the next thing I knew, this guy was not there. Two other guys had come in
�47
and they were watching me play, you know, pinball and stuff. And so, they kind of introduced
themselves as, I don’t know, some kind of a name—Rocky or something. Blah blah blah. They
said, “I understand that you might be looking for work.” And I said, “I am going back home.” I
said, “I have a job secured at Brunswick Corporation, which incidentally, Jim, I forgot to
mention this, that mortar that we did on the boat? Manufactured by Brunswick Corporation. I
said, “Oh my gosh, I hope these guys weren’t taking a coffee break when they put this together.”
(01:46:30)
Veteran: But anyway, I said, “No, I am going—they are holding my job at Brunswick. I am
going to go home.” And they said, “Well, we got work for you here.” And I said, “Doing what?”
And they said, “Well, we know that you are a pretty fair marksman.” And basically, I am sifting
through this, and I am thinking yeah, so what do you want? What does that mean? They said,
“Well, you know…Would you like a job?” Without committing to what. I said, “No, I am going
back home. I don’t want anything to do with this.” Well, after I began to think about this: who
would know more about—and I don’t know whether these guys were government. I don’t know
whether they were mob. I have no idea. But who else would be able to tell them that, other than
the people that are working in the administration building and what you had in your records? If
this guy is a marksman, we can use him for something. No. No, I am going home. I am going
home. So, you know, that triggered while we were talking here. And I have told this to my wife,
you know, and she…But I am here. I am here. You know, I didn’t want anything more to do with
any of that business. So, came home. Went back to work at Brunswick and… (01:48:13)
Veteran: Met my wife. And she knew I was a Vietnam vet. She didn’t know much about—some
of her friends had come home in body bags. She’s a graduate of Mona Shores and some of her
friends had come home in body bags. And she said, “You know Wes,” she said, “I used to be
�48
cranked on, rah rah, United States, blah blah blah, at the beginning of this.” And she’s a
schoolteacher. She’s college educated. Very smart gal. And she says, “As the war raged on and
my friends were coming home in body bags,” she says, “it turned me so against that war. Not our
soldiers but the war.” She says, “We could see…” I said, “One of the defining moments for me
was Kent State. Fire upon your own people? Here are these people,” I said, “all they are there for
was an education. Well, you gave them one.” And so, it kind of soured me that way. Like I
explained to you before, it isn’t the war, the people that were involved in the war, it was the suits
that put us there. And even though I have forgiven them, I will never forget about them. And I
told my wife after we had our children, I said, “I will never ever allow my kids to go to war
unless they are on our ground. If they are not a direct threat, there is no way on God’s green
earth.” I said, “If I have to go to Alaska and raise potatoes and corn, you know,” I said, “no, it’s
not going to happen.” (01:50:15)
Interviewer: Okay. So, what kind of career did you go into?
Veteran: I am a—actually, I went back to the Reserves. And my training officer was the union
president at Story Chemical. And he had seen my progress and my stuff that I was studying and
everything. He says, “You know,” he says, “there are some openings coming out at Story
Chemical,” he says, “for a millwright and,” he said, “why don’t you come out and take a test.” I
said, “What the heck is a millwright?” He says, “Well,” he says, “they are—” he says, “they are
mechanics and,” he says, “but you have to go through a battery of tests to do that, to get into the
program.” I said, ‘Well, I’ll tell you what…” His name was Darryl, Darryl Whitaker. I said, “I’ll
tell you what Darryl,” I said, “I’ve got a couple weeks vacation coming from Brunswick.” I said,
“If it is okay with them,” I said, “I’ll take a week out.” He says, “It’ll be about 3 days of a battery
of exams over 3 days.” He says, “Not all day long.” He said, “But just—” I said, “Oh, okay.” I
�49
said, “Like what?” he said, “Well, math.” He said, “General aptitudes, you know. Mechanical
aptitude. Stuff like that.” I said, “Okay.” So, it was in—so, I took the exams and they called me
up and said, “Well, we’d like to hire you to go through our apprenticeship.” And it was through
the U.S. Department of Labor. The whole nine yards. And I said, “Well, I have another week.” I
said, “If it is alright with you,” I said, “I’d like to come out there and work in it for a week and
then make my decision based on that.” They said, “That’s fine.” So, I did, and I did and I, you
know, got into the program and three and a half years later, I became a journeyman. And I
worked in that probably for…as a mechanic mechanic…they closed down in 1973, I think.
(01:52:35)
Interviewer: So, not too long then.
Veteran: Not too long but we worked a tremendous amount of overtime, and they applied our
overtime hours. Because you have to put in a certain amount of hours to become a journeyman.
And that consists of—I had ICS courses, I had Dupont courses, I had courses at Muskegon
Community College. So anyway, you had to take these courses. And I completed all that before
my time anyway. And the U.S. Department of Labor waived that time. They said whether its
overtime or whether it isn’t, it’s OJT: it’s on the job training. You know, so I got my card. And I
worked in that trade for probably 40-some odd years, Jim, but not always as a millwright. I went
back to school, went back into advanced MIG and TIG welding, metallurgy, machine shop, stuff
like that, because these were the fun courses. These were. And I realized that I wasn’t college
material, but I wanted a higher education in technology. But I am going to say probably for the
last 30 years, before I retired, I was into supervision. (01:54:11)
Veteran: And some of these—and I was in supervision at—I became the maintenance manager at
Brunswick. I worked at various jobs. And I was kind of—I can see where my PTSD came into it.
�50
I was an angry guy. And I mean if that supervisor—if I didn’t like his tie that day, I’d just quit,
go on to something else. In that day and age, you could because skilled trades were just—you
could go anywhere. Walk across a street and get a job there. Well, my wife and I were figuring
this out here a while back and I had—over that course—I had 54 jobs. And part of the…When
you have PTSD, a lot of that accompanies that. Being very, very restless. And I didn’t need an
excuse to quit or anything. Sometimes I just quit. Got fired from a couple of jobs. In fact, one of
them was Story Chemical. A guy was trying my patience for probably 3 months and I finally…I
mean, I busted him up pretty good. And I am sorry for that now. I didn’t get fired because he had
just gotten into on the golf course with the personnel manager the night before. So, I got out
easy. Well, my punishment was I couldn’t drill anybody for 6 months, but this guy couldn’t
shoot his mouth off to anybody for 6 months. So, I don’t know which one was worse. I think he
got the worst of the deal.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, you mentioned the PTSD. At what point did you recognize that
you had that? (01:56:15)
Veteran: I didn’t. Didn’t recognize it until—because back then it wasn’t a buzzword.
Interviewer: Sure.
Veteran: We had no idea, you know, that that was a—one of the common characteristics of post
traumatic stress disorder. Gotten into fights…And I mean at one time, before my wife and I were
married, before I met her, I mean, my big deal was pizza, beer, and fight night. You know? And
that’s kind of a sad thing to say, you know. Again, what did I turn into? You know? And you go
through this elf analysis over the years, you know, of why did I become what I became? What
prompted that? And but after—of course, after we had met and, you know, we had our kids and
�51
all that stuff and—I think I was very nice to my kids. I was very tolerant of them. My wife and I
had a very rocky first seven years. Very rocky. But the Lord bless. And I knew that I loved her. I
wasn’t so sure at that time whether she liked me a whole lot, but we held it together and we are
extremely happy now. Both of us are involved in ministry right now, one of them being in the
Veterans Treatment Court from Muskegon County. She works with the veterans’ wives of us
crazy guys that, you know…And quite frankly, Jim, they are suffering from secondary PTSD.
Interviewer: Oh yes. (01:58:08)
Veteran: You know, for the most part a lot of the times in self defense of the guy that—or
person—that they married. We were fortunate that our marriage worked out. What breaks my
heart is there are a lot of them that don’t. Sometimes you can get to them in time, sometimes you
can’t get to them in time. But when I made the move—I was ordained in 2007. And at the time,
the church that I was—I was a pastor of visitation in evangelism. And we had decided to start a
campground ministry. And we did that. We bought a trailer and a truck, and all that jazz and we
went out to the campgrounds. And I made a little display of all the flags, you know, the United
States flag and the flag of Israel, and the Vietnam flag and the POW flag. And these guys would
always come by, and they’d ask me about some of these flags and all that stuff. The majority of
them were veterans. And of course, they’re—a lot of them were baby boomer veterans, same age
as me or within a couple years one way or the other. And I told my wife, I said, “You know, I am
wondering if the Lord is really directing us to minister to combat vets?” And my wife in her
infinite wisdom, she said, “Well, Wes,” she said, “what a shoe in.” She says, “You are a combat
vet. Who can they relate to better than someone who’d been there, done that?”
Interviewer: Yeah.
�52
Veteran: And the majority of them—she was right. The majority of these guys will not talk to
people unless you are a combat vet because then their whole thing is, if I can quote, “You ain’t
been there, you ain’t done it.” Well, okay.
Interviewer: Yeah. (02:00:20)
Veteran: You know? And so, a boyhood friend of mine at the time was the director of the
Veterans Affairs for Muskegon County. A fellow by the name of Dave Ealing. Very good friend
of mine. We were raised together. And he said, “Wes,” he said, “you have been a pastor for a
while now and,” he says, “I know that you are not pastoring in that position in that church
anymore.” I said, “No.” I said, “You know,” I said, “I feel my—that the Lord is directing me
outside of the church.” I said, “Because you know Dave,” I said, “a majority of these guys don’t
go to church.” And I says, “And I am not saying that the answer,” I said, “is in religion, but it—
for me—it is in the relationship with Christ, not the church.” And I said, “I see the downfall in
manmade rules, manmade things,” I said, “that aren’t really Biblical.” And I said, “And I can’t
do that.” I said, “When I deal with these guys,” I said, “I am constantly reminded these are my
brothers. These are souls. And I can’t help them if I don’t believe in what I am doing.” I said, “If
that makes sense.” He says, “It makes perfect sense. When are you coming down?” Well, we
went through that for about 3 years, Jim. I finally relented and I said, “Well, Dave,” I said, “if
you got a place for me down—” he says, “I got a room for you.” And he says, “And we can set
you up.” And he did. (02:02:16)
Veteran: And we started ministering on a counseling basis with other vets. Then we had a new
wave that was sweeping in the judicial system, dealing with vets. It was called Treatment Courts.
Dave had gotten some people together to go down to—or over to—Washington D.C. It was their
first boot camp. And we went and we got our prosecutor to go. We had the sheriff go. The judge
�53
went. Myself, my wife went. Of course, David. And what an eye opener that was because you’re
rubbing shoulders with people that want to make the difference in a veteran’s life and give them
a second chance for those that are dealing with post traumatic stress disorder, traumatic brain
injuries, or closed head injuries. And it just made perfect sense to us, and we did that. We had a
group of people that would come in—before we went to Washington D.C.—we had a group of
people that was doing this out in Oklahoma, you know, places like that. Which made a
tremendous amount of sense to all of us. And we did that. And we were getting veterans in there
and, Jim, it was making a difference in their lives. What we found over the years that—what’s
happening with these guys—first of all, they go in for care to the VA. And thank God there is a
VA, by the way. I have never gotten poor care from them. And I am 100% disabled through
them. But what would happen is that a lot of these guys would be put on psychotropics.
(02:04:30)
Veteran: And they would get out and they would mix these psychotropics with alcohol or drugs
or both. And that turns into a very toxic cocktail. And they run in, and they have brushes with the
law. And it’s usually DUIs and all of that. Some of them are domestic disputes. We generally
don’t take cases that are violent cases. Murder, rape, that type of thing. But we have taken some
that have gotten into domestic violence. And we found that it made a big difference. One of our
key, star guys tried to commit suicide twice by bullet. He was so drunk he said, and Dan will
laugh at this time about, you know, when he talks about this. He said, “I was so drunk.” He said,
“I had it in right at my head,” he says, “and I was so drunk,” he said, “I passed out. The gun
fired. The bullet went into the wall.” And he said, “What I am here for is that a discharge of
firearm inside the village limits.” And he turned out to be a world class guy because he is a
�54
mentor now in our court. And we are getting more and more people that have gone through that
court to become mentors in helping these people. (02:06:16)
Interviewer: Are you dealing mostly with sort of your generation? Are you getting younger
veterans now?
Veteran: We are getting—oh yeah, we are getting young vets. Because now, the Iraqi vets are the
older vets.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know? And the Afghan vets not—they are coming in but not like the Iraqi vets did.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, we sent rather larger numbers of people to Iraq than
Afghanistan.
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: I mean, we were in Afghanistan first but—
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: But in relatively small numbers to start with but yeah, but it is still ongoing.
Yeah.
Veteran: And but at first it was Vietnam vets. You know, that’s what got around. Of course, we
are baby boomers and that seemed to get around. But when we came to the Iraqi vets, boy, what
a treasure trove of guys that was. Lots of them. Lots of them, Jim. And a lot of them are dealing
with moral injury. A lot of them. One of the guys was telling me, he said he was involved in
armor. And he said and we would go by, you know of course, they had this Republican guard
and all this and blah blah blah. He says they didn’t stand a chance, he says, against our
�55
firepower. Not a chance. He says our tanks were so much more advanced than theirs. Laser lockon and all that business. And he said, “You know, you’d go by on your way to Baghdad, and
you’d go by these tanks that were just burned-out cinders. And,” he said, “sometimes the bodies
were still on there and…” And I say, “You know, the sad part about that is is that that’s
somebody’s brother.”
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Or…That’s the thing that I always come back to, Jim. And I know dealing with moral
injury…I know how that feels. So, I can relate to these guys, how that feels. And how to
approach them about that because you know a lot of these guys, they harbor that. They hold that
in, and they harbor that, thinking that if I—same way I felt. If I tell that to my wife, is she going
to think differently of me than when she first met me, even though I am the same guy?
(02:08:28)
Veteran: You know? And so, they harbor that, and they continue to live with it. And so, that’s
the point of that ministry is to help. Not to beat them up with the Bible. You know, they don’t
need that. They already know who they are and what they are, you know. They need to know
that there is something outside of that. And the only way…And we used to hear all this business
about psychology and this and that and the other thing. And I say, “And that’s okay to a certain
level.” I said, “But sometimes, you’ve got to get to the inner level and that is the spirit. You can’t
get there psychologically. You can only get there through faith.” And some of them disagree
with me, and that’s okay. But I have seen in with my own eyes. I have seen what works. That
coupled with psychology? Now you are doing something. You know? You are dealing with
forgiveness; you are dealing with why you did what you did. You know, and when psychology
comes into it, now we can help you from here. Now that you have recognized you have this
�56
problem, now we can help you with this. And I thank the VA for doing that. And of course, the
medical issues that they are dealing with. I am dealing a lot with the Agent Orange thing, which
is concentrated in the rivers because of storm water runoff.
Interviewer: Right. Right. (02:10:04)
Veteran: So, we are dealing with that. We host a—several veterans events where they can just
come and let their hair down. We were facilitators of a PTSD group for probably 7 years. And
now, one of my best friends is now doing that with his wife. We just became so busy that…I
attend this thing every once in a while, but, you know, and I should probably attend it more.
Interviewer: Well, it’s a pretty long way from enlisting in the Navy to stay out of Vietnam
and go on a battleship.
Veteran: It’s a long ways.
Interviewer: But you have kind of brought it around full circle and put yourself back into a
good place and you can do positive things from where you are.
Veteran: Well, it’s a good place for me. And I hope it is a good place for them. We try to. I am a
cross between a pacifist and a patriot. I know that there is going to wars, and I know that there is
going to be rumors of wars, Jim, I already know that. But where do we go from here? Where do
we go with—in the wake of that? Where do we go? Do we become staunch and say we will just
live with it, guys? And that’s just the way it is? Or…Are we going to be compassionate? And
understand okay, I know why we went here is to protect our families and our grandkids and our
freedoms, and all this business. But what about the wake of that? Because there—even though
there is collateral damage, a lot of that is with our own troops. A lot of it is with our own troops.
�57
Interviewer: Yeah, very much so. Alright.
Veteran: But anyway, I…We are where we are, and I am where I am. And I am comfortable in
that. We—I would like to see more veterans comfortable with that. And my wife and I are both
working toward that. And sometimes, that’s a long struggle, Jim. That isn’t something you get
over overnight, particularly when you have been dealing with it for the last 47, 48, years. 50
years for some.
Interviewer: Alright. Alright. Well, thank you very much for coming in and sharing tour
story today.
Veteran: You are welcome. You are welcome. Thank you for having me. (02:12:37)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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SpykeW2350V
Creator
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Spyke, Wesley
Date
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2020-02
Title
A name given to the resource
Spyke, Wesley (Interview transcript and video), 2019
Description
An account of the resource
Wesley Spyke was born in 1948 in Muskegon, Michigan. He graduated from high school in 1966. He enlisted in the Navy Reserve in April of 1968. Wesley completed bootcamp at Naval Station Great Lakes, Illinois. He became a gunner’s mate in the Navy. He received additional gunnery training in Coronado, California. Wesley did small arms training at Camp Pendleton, California. He received orders to Vietnam in July of 1969. He was initially stationed at Dong Ha, Vietnam. Wesley did river security on riverboats for about 5 months. He then was moved to a base at Cua Viet, Vietnam, where he continued to do river patrols and aided in extractions and insertions of Special Forces personnel at various points along the riverways. While in Vietnam, Wesley was involved in various skirmishes. He returned from Vietnam in July of 1970. He is now actively involved in ministry. Wesley and his wife currently work with the Veterans Treatment Court of Muskegon County.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Rights
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In Copyright
Type
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Moving Image
Text
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6047d0e3342a839288b688f3c5468c81.mp4
7a7347c5a3837d8f9df0316e01dc29b1
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/88707897ccffc54fe45b6782e416358c.pdf
b27ee2365bab6550dd7fd1d1c30605ed
PDF Text
Text
Slager, Kenneth
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee’s Name: Kenneth Slager
Length of Interview:
Interviewed by: Wallace Erichsen
Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman
INTERVIEWER: Today is March 15, 2019 and we are at Ray Brooke Retirement home in
Grand Rapids, Michigan. We’ll be interviewing Reverend Kenneth Ray Slager who served
in the US Marine Corps in World War II. Kenneth Ray Slager was born on June 11, 1925
and his residence is:
2111 Raybrook Avenue Southeast
Apartment 1006
Grand Rapids, Michigan
49546
And I, as the videographer and interviewer and also the audio person, my name is
Wallace Erikson, and I’m a volunteer interviewer with the history department at Grand
Vallery State University, Allendale, Michigan. And this interview is being done as part of
the Veterans History Project at the American Folklife Center at the Library of Congress in
Washington, D.C. Now Ken, what is your full name and your date of birth? (1:48)
My full name is Kenneth Ray Slager, I was born in June 11th, 1925.
INTERVIEWER: And where is your place of birth, city and state?
Kalamazoo, Michigan.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, thank you. Which war did you serve in?
World War II. Second world war.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. And what branch of service and what was your highest rank?
I was in the Marine Corps and I became a Corporal.
INTERVIEWER: Okay thank you. Where did you serve? What theater of the war?
What theater?
�Slager, Kenneth
INTERVIEWER: What theater.
Pacific.
INTERVIEWER: Pacific, okay.
Island hopping.
INTERVIEWER: Well if you’re born in Kalamazoo then, Ken, where did you grow up?
Just east of Kalamazoo in a community called Comstock.
INTERVIEWER: I see and what did your father do for a living there?
He did a variety of jobs but he ended up working for Upjohn Company. (2:55)
INTERVIEWER: Oh I see, what did he do for that?
He worked in the lab where they ran their first run to see how it would work in the production.
INTERVIEWER: Sure.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Biological laboratory then, I assume.
Something like that.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah. How many siblings did you have, brothers and sisters?
I had 2 sisters and 1 brother.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
I was the oldest.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. And where did you go to high school then?
Well after graduating from Christian school in Comstock I went forward to Kalamazoo Christian
High School. We rode our bicycles four miles.
INTERVIEWER: Oh my.
To and from.
�Slager, Kenneth
INTERVIEWER: You also went to Comstock Christian Elementary School, is that right?
Mmhm.
INTERVIEWER: I see.
Mmhm. Two room school.
INTERVIEWER: Oh my, was it out in the country or in the little village of Comstock?
It was part of the community.
INTERVIEWER: I see.
Went to church there too of course.
INTERVIEWER: What church did you go to in Comstock?
Comstock CRC.
INTERVIEWER: Christian Reform Church?
Right.
INTERVIEWER: I see. (Long pause) Did you have any employment when you were in
grade school or high school? (4:38)
Well when I was in my early teens I was working for my uncle in the celery field.
INTERVIEWER: I see, what was his name?
Jacob Slager.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Okay. And then were you draft into the military?
Yes.
INTERVIEWER: I see. So you got a draft notice I assume?
I just signed up for the draft on my birthday in June and in early September I was sent to Detroit
for physical.
INTERVIEWER: I see. How long after high school was that when you were drafted?
�Slager, Kenneth
Three months.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Yup.
INTERVIEWER: Did you go to Detroit then, did you take a train or how did you get there,
do you remember?
I think by train.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
I don’t remember but I’m pretty sure that’s the way alright.
INTERVIEWER: And that was the entrance station then at the draft station there for the
military. And what happened there, then?
Well as I was being processed they asked for volunteers for the Marine Corps, they needed a
few extra men and if you would volunteer you could go back home for two weeks and that
sounded pretty good to me so I signed up.
INTERVIEWER: Do they give you any assurance of any sort of military occupation or
MOS or at all?
No, no.
INTERVIEWER: The drafting at the draft board there.
No.
INTERVIEWER: So you had two more weeks of the civilian life, is that right?
Right back to work. (6:27)
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Did you go back then to Detroit after the two weeks or did you go
someplace else?
No, no. We boarded a bus for Chicago and in Chicago they put us in the Pullman car. I had an
upper berth which was pretty nice and we clickety-clacked across the country to Los Angeles.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Where did you go through basic training then?
�Slager, Kenneth
San Diego.
INTERVIEWER: San Diego. Marine Corps Recruit Depot then.
Right. (7:03)
INTERVIEWER: Okay. How long were you there at the basic training?
About four months. Two months in boot camp and two months in infantry training.
INTERVIEWER: I see… where was the infantry training, was that at San Diego also?
The what?
INTERVIEWER: The Infantry training? Was that at San Diego?
Right.
INTERVIEWER: Do you remember any of your drill instructors, what they were like or
what they were named or anything by chance?
Well I know he had a strong voice. I’m trying to recall his name but I can’t recall his name now.
He put us through our paces, he was an excellent DI.
INTERVIEWER: You could hear him across the drill deck I bet.
That’s right.
INTERVIEWER: You could probably still hear that voice sometimes.
Yeah well I… when we were in the rifle range, we were returning from an evening program, four
or five platoons and he was calling the cadence for all five platoons.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, haha.. What were the first few days of your service, and your
training your basic training, what were they like? What do you remember about them?
I really don’t remember much at all. Nope. I’m drawing much of a blank there I know I got rid of
my civilian closed and got GI clothes, sent the other clothes back home. That was it.
INTERVIEWER: But any particular instances that come back to your mind as far as, you
know the drill instructor yelling at you or hollering at everybody trying to get you to line
up?
�Slager, Kenneth
Yup He was very strict and one fella, instead of washing his clothes he would just take one of
his briefs and get it wet and hang it up and he got caught at it, so the DI told him to throw it on
the ground which is red clay. Then he marched the platoon back and forth over it, he said “Now
you get it clean.”
INTERVIEWER: So you had to wash your own clothing in it?
Oh yeah, every evening.
INTERVIEWER: I expected you to use soap and water I suppose.
Yeah, whatever they had there. At least our underwear, yeah. (9:55)
INTERVIEWER: What did it feel like, then, the first few days in basic training?
I probably felt lost. I wasn’t at home and I wasn’t completely comfortable there either, I guess.
Took a while to adjust.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah you weren’t really used to it yet.
Yup. But they didn’t give you a lot of time to think about it.
INTERVIEWER: That helps, probably.
Woke you up early in the morning and kept you busy all the time til it was time to get back in the
sack.
INTERVIEWER: Even the evenings, was that pretty much regimented as far as the
trainings with the drill instructor?
The what?
INTERVIEWER: The evenings after the evening meal? Were you busy at that time also
with the drill instructor?
During the infantry training you mean?
INTERVIEWER: Well in basic training after the evening meal or did you have these
evenings to yourself?
Oh they found things to do, yeah.
INTERVIEWER: They kept you busy, yeah.
�Slager, Kenneth
Polish your rifle or polish your shoes.
INTERVIEWER: Right, yeah.
Clean your rifle as you would say, polish your shoes.
INTERVIEWER: Well how did you get through the basic training then?
How did I get through it?
INTERVIEWER: How did you get through it, yeah.
I did what I was told!
INTERVIEWER: You followed instructions, right? (11:19)
(Slager laughs)
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Your rifle training then?
Where?
INTERVIEWER: Where.
I don’t remember where, I know it was up in the higher elevation and it got very cold at night.
INTERVIEWER: But near San Diego, is that right?
Not too far from San Diego, nice general area. When we’d go out to the rifle range in the
morning we had to have plenty of clothes on to stay warm. But the time we came back at noon
we had most of it off, it was pretty warm.
INTERVIEWER: And how long were you there?
Three weeks of rifle training.
INTERVIEWER: Three weeks, okay.
And the first full week was only the snapping and we never did any firing.
INTERVIEWER: But they taught you how to hold a rifle and adjust the swing properly and
all that?
Right.
�Slager, Kenneth
INTERVIEWER: It’s an interesting turn, snapping in. They still use it in the Marine Corps.
I suppose.
INTERVIEWER: One of those things.
Yup.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah… where did you go after basic training? Did you go to advanced
training after that?
Infantry training, yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Oh I see.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: And that was also at San Diego?
Mmhm.
INTERVIEWER: How long were you at infantry training?
Two months.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Yup. We were…
INTERVIEWER: Backing up just a bit here, Ken, when did you enter the military then or
when were you drafted, what date?
September… let’s see… two weeks after the 9th, anyways.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, so you were at the entrance station there.
About 23 I guess.
INTERVIEWER: On the 9th.
September 23.
INTERVIEWER: On the 23rd, what year then was that?
�Slager, Kenneth
1943.
INTERVIEWER: ‘43, okay. Okay. What did you do in infantry training when you went to
infantry training in San Diego.
Well, um…
INTERVIEWER: What sort of things did you learn?
Mostly just… do as your told, I guess.
INTERVIEWER: Did you learn about specific weapons like machine guns or?
Oh yeah, several.
INTERVIEWER: Bazookas and that kind of thing? (14:07)
Yeah that was on the rifle range.
INTERVIEWER: Oh I see. Oh, the rifle range was part of the infantry training is that right?
Mhm.
INTERVIEWER: I see.
Yeah. Three weeks.
INTERVIEWER: And then at the end and infantry training thats, I assume, when you
graduated is that right?
Yeah you had, after the near the end of the three weeks they had you fire four a record and the
fella next to me his target didn’t have any holes and mine had a lot of ‘em so… I think I got his
shots, credit for his shots.
INTERVIEWER: You had more holes in your target then you had bullet casings is that
right?
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: That would give you a good high score.
It did, unfortunately. I was qualified as a BARman, Browning Automatic Rifle.
�Slager, Kenneth
INTERVIEWER: Oh I see. When did you graduate though from basic training, do you
remember that? It’s usually a big parade isn’t it?
I don’t think it was that much for us. It was war time and they were just interested in getting us
overseas.
INTERVIEWER: I see.
I suppose there was some kind of ceremony but I don’t remember it at all.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Where did you go after San Diego then?
Well we got aboard the SS President Tyler, 2700 of us, and took a 28-day trip to Guadalcanal.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Stopping at New Caledonia on the way, we crossed the pacific all by ourselves, no escort, no
protection.
INTERVIEWER: What sort of ship had the SS President Tyler been? Had that been a
passenger ship?
I guess so, and probably retired.
INTERVIEWER: What was your—did you have a regular stateroom?
Oh no no no, we had about 4 bunks in a tier.
INTERVIEWER: Four bunks stacked up one on top of the other?
Right.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
And I was not on the top but I was not on the bottom either, thankfully.
INTERVIEWER: So you went to Guadalcanal and you mentioned you stopped on what
island?
Actually went over as a replacement of a battalion.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Yeah.
�Slager, Kenneth
INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Do you remember what your battalion designation was? The
battalion or regiment that you were in?
No I don’t.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
No… it was just a replacement battalion I don’t remember the number.
INTERVIEWER: And you eventually went to guadalcanal, but I thought you mentioned
you had also stopped at another island? (17:09)
New Caledonia.
INTERVIEWER: New Caledonia, okay… What did you do in New Caledonia?
You know, they unloaded some fresh fruit which we never had.
INTERVIEWER: Well that was a treat I’ll bet, at least for a few days anyway.
Right.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah…
They managed to break a crate or two I think while they were unloading.
INTERVIEWER: And at this point as you’re going overseas what was your military
specialty there, were you a BAR?
Yeah. Browning Automatic Rifleman.
INTERVIEWER: A Browning Automatic Rifleman, okay, so Infantry then, right?
Yeah, that was my [specialty].
INTERVIEWER: Okay… and when you’ve got to Guadalcanal what sort of a situation did
you encounter there then? When you got to Guadalcanal?
Well… we just were assigned to a particular place where they had tents set up for us and we
were waiting to be assigned to specific units.
INTERVIEWER: You were replacement personnel then.
�Slager, Kenneth
Right, and after a few days they put up a notice that everyone 6 feet or more tall to fall out at
such and such a date and I did of course. And a short captain came and asked a few questions,
and a day or two later I was assigned to an MP company.
INTERVIEWER: I see… when you first arrived on Guadalcanal, Ken, was the fighting still
going on?
No, no, it’s secure.
INTERVIEWER: The island was fairly secure?
Yup. Yup. (18:54)
INTERVIEWER: Okay… So you joined the MPs then, what was your unit designation at
that point?
It was MP Company and H&S Battalion, 3rd Amphibious Corps.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
General Geiger was Commander. Roy S. Geiger.
INTERVIEWER: That’s a famous name from…
Yes!
INTERVIEWER: World War II, yeah. Okay. Did you go through specific training at all to be
an MP?
I don’t remember, I suppose they taught us a few things. I remember one thing they said, “When
you’re wearing that Brizard you’re just like Jesus Christ.” I didn’t quite agree with that, but what
they meant was you were in charge.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah that’s probably why they wanted people 6 feet or over.
Right.
INTERVIEWER: So that you could be in charge, you would look like you’re in charge.
What was your actual job assignment then as a military policeman?
Well, we did various things during invasions. We would sometimes escort admirals and generals
who would come to view things, we would take care of the main gate if there was such a thing,
we’d raise and lower the colors every day as part of our tasks. Supervise work in the brig, make
sure everybody stayed there.
�Slager, Kenneth
INTERVIEWER: The brig or jail, right?
There’s no place to go if they got out, so, wasn’t too much of a problem but… and direct traffic.
INTERVIEWER: We’re you broken up into—the company, were you broken up into
platoons or did you have squads?
No, not in the MP Company, no. I suppose we fall out in formation but they didn’t have us
working separately as platoons or anything.
INTERVIEWER: Would you be assigned like two, three, or four to a detail like the main
gate, or?
Yeah, they give us assignments every day or so.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yo wouldn’t be on your own specifically you probably would have
two or three other MPs helping ya.
Yeah, very often. (21:48)
INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Did you see combat when you were in the Marine Corps?
Well yes and no. I was not involved in combat as such. We were close to the front lines more
than one occasion, once we were close enough that the cook was killed by a… I had the word
and now I forgot.
INTERVIEWER: Mortar round?
Mortar dropped right in his fox hole.
INTERVIEWER: Oh.
Yeah. But for the most part we were behind the lines cause we were headquarters battalion.
INTERVIEWER: No other than the cook you just mentioned, were there any other
casualties in your unit like in H&S Company here?
No, nothing too serious. The only thing I can remember is there was a fella by the name of Joe
Sokolowski and he always walked with a rudy sticking out of his chest, and going through the
line to get a shots and he keeled over. He wasn’t such a…
INTERVIEWER: He wasn’t such a He-Man at that point.
�Slager, Kenneth
No.
INTERVIEWER: What was Joe’s last name—what was Joe’s last name again?
Sokolowski. S-o-k-o-l-o-w-s-k-i, I think something like that.
INTERVIEWER: S-K-I… you recall where he was from?
I think Chicago area.
INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see. Yeah… did he eventually revive himself?
I don’t remember.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
He stayed.
INTERVIEWER: He stayed dead, okay… Can you tell me about any other memorable
experiences you had there? (23:55)
Yes.
INTERVIEWER: Maybe in policing the other Marines or other Navy personnel or whatever.
I remember when I was on guard duty guarding the general's tent and about six o’clock in the
morning he came out of the tent and his question was “How did the boys do during the night?”
Which, in reflecting on that told me he was concerned about the personnel and their safety. Of
course I had no idea how they had… but there had not been much firing that I had heard.
INTERVIEWER: That’s probably a surprise question to you.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: As if he thought you had just come from the intelligence tent or
something.
Right.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
And another outstanding thing in my mind on Okinawa was I was directing traffic after… well let
me get back up a bit. We had a season of rain, almost three weeks of continuous rain where
they couldn’t get through on the roads, they had to bring things up to the front on the beach
�Slager, Kenneth
using amphibious tractors. So once it dried up they had to remove lots of bodies, and I
remember a truck—a four by six truck coming by loaded with bodies on it like cordwood taking
them from the front, and that was quite traumatic of course.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Some kind of stock and trade questions here then, Ken. Were you
ever a prisoner of war?
Was I a prisoner of war? No.
INTERVIEWER: Okay…
I guarded a few prisoners but I was never a prisoner of war.
INTERVIEWER: Were you ever wounded in action?
No.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
No.
INTERVIEWER: Were you awarded any individual medals or citations for individual
bravery or anything like that?
No, nothing like that either.
INTERVIEWER: Okay… We stop— (Tape is changed.) Okay Ken, how long did you stay
on Guadalcanal before moving on?
I don’t know, it was not very long before we went on our first push which was Guam.
INTERVIEWER: Mhmm.. So after Guadalcanal you went to Guam then, is that right?
Well that was the invasion of Guam.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, okay.
Then we went back to Guadalcanal and then was the invasion of Okinawa.
INTERVIEWER: How long were you on Guam?
I don’t recall.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, and again that—
�Slager, Kenneth
It didn’t take long because it was a small island and the people there knew what the American
troops were like and so they gladly welcomed us. (27:22)
INTERVIEWER: So they welcomed you ashore?
The Okinawan Japanese had told them we were terrible people but on Guam they knew better.
INTERVIEWER: Surprise, that wasn’t the case.
Because of the US position.
INTERVIEWER: So you went to Guam and then you went back to—
Okinawa.
INTERVIEWER: Guadalcanal?
Back to Guadalcanal.
INTERVIEWER: For a time. And then from Guadalcanal a second time where did you go
after that?
Then we did an invasion of Okinawa.
INTERVIEWER: Okay Did you actually participate in the invasion or was that shortly after
the invasion?
Well, part of the invasion, yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
You know, we went in D-Day plus one or two.
INTERVIEWER: Okay… How was that? What was that like once you got ashore in
Okinawa?
Well…
INTERVIEWER: Cause you were quite close at the time of the invasion.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Only a day or two after.
�Slager, Kenneth
Nothing comes to mind right now except what we talked about earlier of course, some of the
things we talked about were on Okinawa.
INTERVIEWER: Do you remember what part of the island on Okinawa that you landed
on?
No I don’t.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
I know that the Marines landed next to the Army and we swept north but there was no
opposition and in just a few days we were back on the line on the south end of the island.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: But again at that point you were still, you were in the military policemen
then at that point.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: So you’re directing traffic…
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: And guarding the main gate and things like that to the compound.
Guarding generals and admirals.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Escorting them. (29:23)
INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Let me ask you a little bit about that then, Ken, escorting the
generals and the bigwigs. Did they travel around a lot or just some?
They would come just to see how things were going I guess, get fairly close to the front lines,
check things out. Our job was to protect them, they didn’t get fired on by any enemies.
INTERVIEWER: I assume they were in a Jeep.
Yeah.
�Slager, Kenneth
INTERVIEWER: Most of the time, and did you have a convoy, did you have other Jeeps?
Yeah usually.
INTERVIEWER: Or trucks that you had?
We had one Jeep ahead with several of us in it.
INTERVIEWER: And then probably a Jeep or a truck in the back?
Yeah, right.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Okay.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: So they would at least get to the front line and did they visit other
commands with other units?
Well I imagine that was the idea, we didn’t get involved in that, we were just there to make sure
they were kept safe.
INTERVIEWER: You just went wherever they told you to go, right? (Long pause) So I’m
assuming you guarded the Commanding General for the 3rd Amphibious Corps.
Mmhm.
INTERVIEWER: And that was General Geiger, is that right?
Roy S. Geiger. (31:01)
INTERVIEWER: What was he like? What kind of a General was he? Pleasant? Was he a
hardnose or?
No, he wasn’t hard nosed, no at least as far as I didn’t see that much of him, but what I did see
of him he was… pretty much of a personal person, I guess I would say.
INTERVIEWER: Personable?
Personable.
INTERVIEWER: Now that's a famous name, what was he really known for? Did he go on
to command and Army or?
�Slager, Kenneth
He became Commandant, I think, of the Marine Corps.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, and would that have been after the war then?
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Vandegrift was Commandant during the war.
INTERVIEWER: Okay…
And he had been Commandant of the 3rd Amphibious Corps as well.
INTERVIEWER: Was General Vandergrift, was he commanding general during the
invasion of Guadalcanal, do you remember?
Geiger was.
INTERVIEWER: Oh Geigar was, okay.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: So at that point then—
Oh, no, at Guadalcanal? I think Vandergrift was it.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
INTERVIEWER: And then he became the Commandant of the Marine Corps, and then
after the war General Geiger became Commandant. That’s where I recall the name from, I
guess.
Yup.
INTERVIEWER: The list of Commandants.
He was Commander of the 3rd Amphibious Corps. (32:36)
INTERVIEWER: Lemme just ask you then, how did you keep in touch with your family
then? By letter or telephone or what?
�Slager, Kenneth
No telephone, just by what they called Vmail.
INTERVIEWER: Oh, I’ve heard of that.
You’d write it and they would—
INTERVIEWER: What was that like, the Vmail?
Take a picture of it and they could get it on film on a very small space and then when they got to
the states they would…
INTERVIEWER: Develop it and print it.
Enlarge it again, send it to the family. Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah… Then were you able to get mail back then from the states, too?
Oh yeah?
INTERVIEWER: In the same way, by Vmail?
Mhmm. Or regular mail too.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah?
Took awhile, often, to catch up with us.
INTERVIEWER: What was the food like overseas? What kinda food did you have?
Rations most of the time. Good cereal the time, I should say, but for the most part we had good
warm meals.
INTERVIEWER: So hot meals and… did you have like, mess halls?
Not the first few days of an invasion but after you got set up, set up the kitchen, we had pretty
good meals.
INTERVIEWER: Did you have like, a regular mess hall or a vehicle or like a tent?
Probably a tent, yes. A large tent.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
�Slager, Kenneth
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: But the important thing was at least the meal was hot, right?
Right.
INTERVIEWER: And did you have plenty—or did you have enough supplies I should say?
Oh yeah.
INTERVIEWER: As far as clothing?
When we were on MP duty we could go to the front of the chow line.
INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see.
That was nice for us but the other guys didn’t appreciate it.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah but if you go through the chow line real quick then you gotta go
back on duty, isn’t that right?
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Yup, that was the idea. Probably get a half hour for meal time.
INTERVIEWER: Did you feel any stressful situations when you were deployed overseas?
No. I suppose at times I did but the most difficult experience for me was… right after Okinawa
was secured my cousin was in the Army and was assigned to Okinawa, he came to shore a day
or two about the time it was secure, and he was standing guard duty two days after the island
was declared secure and a sniper shot him. My folks sent me a letter telling me he was on
Okinawa and where he was and asked me to look him up, which I did. I did, I caught a ride
detail to the other side of the island and found his Sergeant and I said “Do you have a Jim
Slager here?” and he said “We had a Jim Slager.”
INTERVIEWER: He was killed in action?
Yeah, by a sniper while he was standing guard duty, like I said just a couple days after he was
on Okinawa and the island was supposedly secure.
INTERVIEWER: Secured at that point.
�Slager, Kenneth
But I could not write that home.
INTERVIEWER: Yup.
If I had it would have been blacked out
INTERVIEWER: They would have deleted it out of it.
So my folks kept writing me, “Do you know anything about Jim, do you know anything about
Jim?” and I couldn’t answer til about… I suppose 30 days they notified the parents.
INTERVIEWER: So eventually—Jim’s parents eventually were notified by the military.
You’re right.
INTERVIEWER: And the word probably got back to your folks.
Oh yeah.
INTERVIEWER: That he’d been killed.
They lived a few blocks from each other.
INTERVIEWER: Oh. Oh my, no… (pause) How did you and your fellow Marines entertain
yourselves overseas?
Oh, well we played a lot of volleyball. Which makes sense with everybody 6 feet tall or taller.
That was one way. (37:48)
INTERVIEWER: It must of been games of the MPs verses the Infantry, right?
No, usually just among ourselves.
INTERVIEWER: Oh!
Yeah, and usually once the island was secured you’d have a day on and a day off of duty, and
the day off you could play volleyball, polish your shoes…
INTERVIEWER: Rest a little bit.
Whatever, wash your clothes. And they often had programs in the evening—movies of some
sort, take those in.
�Slager, Kenneth
INTERVIEWER: Did you have entertainers like the Bob Hope Troupe that visited you
guys?
We never had the Bob Hope, no.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Any other entertainer groups?
Not that I can recall, no.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Okay…. Okay, after Okinawa where did you go then, Ken?
After Okinawa was secured we went to Guam, back to Guam.
INTERVIEWER: Back to Guam.
And we were preparing to invade Tokyo Bay, that was our next assignment.
INTERVIEWER: And that would have been Japan, then.
Right.
INTERVIEWER: What happened to stop that?
Well, President Truman, Harry Truman, decided to drop the Atomic Bomb and subsequently the
Japanese surrendered.
INTERVIEWER: Were you on Guam at the time that happened?
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: When the bombs were dropped and the Japanese surrendered?
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Then after V-J Day, where did you go after that?
Then we went to Tientsin, China.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
And we were there four months.
INTERVIEWER: Were you on duty there then or was that?
�Slager, Kenneth
Oh yeah.
INTERVIEWER: On duty? Okay.
Yeah. I guess they were afraid that the Russians were going to invade China, and we were
there to see that didn’t happen. (40:13)
INTERVIEWER: Were you posted at a military base or?
Well we had… no it was not a military base. It was converted into a military base but it was just
a large building, what it had been before I don’t recall, but we were—the headquarters were
right in the downtown area in another building which we had to…
INTERVIEWER: You guarded that, then, as an MP, too?
Make sure that was secure. And, uh…
INTERVIEWER: Okay… Were you there with other large infantry units, too? I mean a lot
of other military personnel in China? Tientsin?
Well that I don’t really know. I’m sure there were but we didn’t really see many of them. We had,
basically, Marine Corps and Navy personnel on our base and they… some of them would see
the town in the evening, we had to make sure they got the right treatment after they came in, if
they were obviously had taken too much alcohol.
INTERVIEWER: Get them to their barracks.
Directly to the sick bay. (41:45)
INTERVIEWER: Were you able to travel at all in China on your own or on leave or
anything?
Not on my own. They did give us one week where our unit, or a good share of our unit, went to
Beijing for a week.
INTERVIEWER: I see.
Did a lot of looking around the city.
INTERVIEWER: It was like a period of R&R, of rest and recuperation?
Right.
�Slager, Kenneth
INTERVIEWER: Okay, yup. And then after your four months in China, where did you go
from there?
Then we boarded the USS Roi and sailed for San Diego. We stopped in Pearl Harbor for 12
hours. Nobody got off ship but we saw our first Coke-a-Cola truck in 2 years which was kind of
interesting, and then we went right into San Diego.
INTERVIEWER: And how long did you spend in San Diego, then?
Not too long, just a few days and then they shipped me to Great Lakes Naval Training Station
for discharge.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. So that’s where you were discharged was in Great Lakes, Illinois,
then.
Right.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. What date was that, do you remember?
The date?
INTERVIEWER: Or even the month and year.
Early March, I think I got home about March 5th or something.
INTERVIEWER: And what year was that?
That would be… ‘46.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. And after that did you come back to Comstock, Kalamazoo?
Went home.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Gladly, haha. Yup.
INTERVIEWER: What do you remember about your first few days out of the Marine Corps
and out of the military? Anything particular there?
No, I don’t have any recollection. I guess I went back to work?
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
�Slager, Kenneth
For my uncle, on the celery farm. And then in the fall, September, I enrolled at Calvin College.
INTERVIEWER: In what college? In Calvin College?
Mhmm.
INTERVIEWER: I see.
Yeah. Pre-sem course, pre-seminary. I decided while I was overseas—well actually, while
overseas that I became a committed Christan and decided to go into the Ministry.
INTERVIEWER: What sort of a conversion experience did you have there when you were
overseas, anything specific about that?
No, I just know that when it happened I was… well, just, there were other fellas who were also
committed Christians and we soon worked together at different times when we were off duty,
especially in China we went to different Youth for Christ meetings that they had there. That’s
where we met a lady by the name of Mrs. Fan.
INTERVIEWER: Mrss Fan?
Mrs. Fan, F-A-N.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
And she had us for dinner several times. Didn’t hurt that she had two or three young daughters,
but it was a very nice family. She had been in the states for a while so she spoke very good
English.
INTERVIEWER: So that was a connection, then.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, the language.
Her husband was in South China overseeing some mining operation and we never met him but.
Anyway, she even wrote a letter to my mother, to my folks, yeah. A very nice lady and… (46:23)
INTERVIEWER: Did you take any photographs when you were overseas?
I did not, no.
INTERVIEWER: No photographs, okay.
�Slager, Kenneth
I did get pictures from other people but I didn’t have a camera myself.
INTERVIEWER: Ken, when you enrolled in Calvin College as an undergrad did you know
at that point that you wanted to go on and go through Seminary and become a pastor?
Oh yeah, I was—my course was a Pre-seminary course, along with a lot of other vets.
INTERVIEWER: Did you have the GI bill to help pay for it?
Yes I did.
INTERVIEWER: To help pay for that? Okay.
For all the seven years except for one semester and then my wife was teaching so we could live
on her, quote-unquote, “salary”.
INTERVIEWER: I see. And you went through Calvin Seminary also, is that about right?
Right.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
For three years.
INTERVIEWER: And you became an ordained Christian Reform Minister?
Right.
INTERVIEWER: Alright.
Willmar, Minnesota. W-I-L-L-M-A-R.
INTERVIEWER: Minnesota, that was your first church then, am I right?
Right.
INTERVIEWER: And was Willmar CRC? Christian Reform Church?
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
It was just a new congregation, I was a new resident pastor.
�Slager, Kenneth
INTERVIEWER: Let me back up, you gave me a little clue here that you were married.
When did you marry and what was her name?
My wife’s maiden name was Alice Klein, K-L-E-I-N.
INTERVIEWER: I see, and when?
And we were married August 26th, 1949.
INTERVIEWER: ‘49… was she a fellow student?
Yes.
INTERVIEWER: At Calvin, that’s how you met her?
We met on the first day I was on campus. She had grown up in Detroit and had worked for
Sanders Candy Company for several years and then came to Calvin, she had been there about
a week I think, helping out with enrollment and so-on, working in the office and… another fella
from Kalamazoo and I were walking together, we had just signed up for the GI Bill and I was
telling him they had to—they were gonna send our applications to Detroit, as she was coming
down the steps. And she said “Detroit, Detroit, did you say Detroit?” Well, that’s when we met.
INTERVIEWER: That’s how you met, talk about Detroit.
But I—we didn’t date until the following March.
INTERVIEWER: I see.
And then I had asked Mike Harvey Bulchum, my roommate, exactly who she was I couldn’t
recall which gal it was, I knew I wanted to meet her but I couldn’t remember who she was. He
told me.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah…Well, backing up just a second here back to your time after the
military then, Ken, did you make any lasting relationships with the people that you
served with in the Marine Corps?
For a year or two we did, and I don’t remember how many years it was afterwards we had a
gather in the Illinois area, but that was the only time I did keep in touch with the few individuals.
INTERVIEWER: Oh, do you remember their names?
Especially one in California… The name won’t come to me now, but…
INTERVIEWER: That’s alright.
�Slager, Kenneth
Russ Carver.
INTERVIEWER: Ross Carter?
Russ Carver.
INTERVIEWER: C-A-R-V-E-R?
Mmhm.
INTERVIEWER: Okay… and he was in California then, right?
He lived in Northern California.
INTERVIEWER: Okay… Did you join any veterans organizations?
No.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
No, I was busy enough without. (50:58)
INTERVIEWER: Alright. Then you get the church affiliated organizations keeping you
going. Okay. I kinda thought I would have you speak a little then about where you served
as a minister in the Christian Reform Church. You mentioned Willmar, Minnesota as your
first church, where did you go after Willmar?
A church called Lincoln Center which was in Grundy Center, Iowa.
INTERVIEWER: I see.
And then to the northwest Iowa town called Sibley.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
And from there I went to Vancouver, Washington where I was an initial pastor of a new
congregation. And then—
INTERVIEWER: Was that Vancouver, Trinity?
Vancouver, Washington.
INTERVIEWER: Was that Trinity Christian Reform Church?
�Slager, Kenneth
Yes.
INTERVIEWER: I see, okay, in Vancouver, Washington?
Yeah. It’s right on the Columbia River across from Portland, Oregon. And then we went to
Monroe, Washington which is northeast of Seattle.
INTERVIEWER: Okay… was that New Hope Fellowship?
That’s what they call it now.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. That’s the name now then, I understand.
When did you retire, then?
INTERVIEWER: 1983. Or, 19… my pension began in January 1 of 1983.
I see.
INTERVIEWER: Did you retire in 1988 then?
Pardon?
INTERVIEWER: Was it actually 1988 when you stopped working?
Well, it was actually just November of ‘87.
INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see.
For as far as Social Security was concerned.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
As far as the pension it was January 1 of ‘88, so.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. After you served your last church and retired from the Christian
Reform Church as a minister, Ken, where did you move from there?
We moved back to Michigan to my hometown into the house I grew up in and we were there
about 19 years, then we moved to Grand Rapids.
INTERVIEWER: I see. Did your parents lived in the house when you first moved back?
�Slager, Kenneth
No. My father had died and my mother was in assisted living and the house was vacant.
INTERVIEWER: Oh, I see.
So, I retired a little bit early and moved in and kinda helped take care of my mother.
INTERVIEWER: Right. Ken, let me just ask you about your military experience and how
that might have influenced your thinking about war and about the military in general. And
let me also add your later experience as a minister—either of those things, you know, the
experience the military, any particular thing. (54:11)
Well, I think the one thing that I got into because of my military experience was chaplain for the
Civil Air Patrol.
INTERVIEWER: I see.
And that was for… ended up being about 35 years in different locations, including Vancouver
and Monroe; Everett, Washington and Kalamazoo and Battle Creek, Michigan after I moved
back here.
INTERVIEWER: Were you able to fly with some of the pilots with civil air patrol?
One time.
INTERVIEWER: One time, okay. You were mainly a chaplain, then.
And my wife and the youngest daughter went along, too.
INTERVIEWER: Oh, good.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Good, yeah. But then did your experience in the military and later as a
minister, that particularly affect your thinking about the military and the war in general.
Probably. I don’t recall that it, you know that I specifically applied military experience, but I’m
sure that it affected me.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
(The camera view changes to show a patch and three medals on a white background, from left
to right. The patch is red and shaped like a shield, with the numeral III and what looks like snake
or dragon embroidered in yellow. From left to right, the medals appear as: navy, yellow, white,
and red stripes with a medallion with the image of a woman; yellow, white, and dark red stripes
�Slager, Kenneth
with a medallion featuring [UNKNOWN]; yellow and two thin red strips with a medallion featuring
[UNKNOWN]. Erikson is pointing at the items individually with a pen.)
INTERVIEWER: Now, Ken, we have several medals and a patch here. What is this patch?
That’s the designation of 3rd Amphibious Corps.
INTERVIEWER: And you wore that on your uniform?
Yes.
INTERVIEWER: Is that right?
On our sleeve.
INTERVIEWER: Right. And what is this medal?
World War II medal.
INTERVIEWER: World War II medal, right. (Erikson points to the second medal.) This is
the Asia-Pacific campaign?
Yes.
(Erikson points to the third medal.)
And China.
INTERVIEWER: And China service, okay.
Mhmm. (56:02)
(The scene changes. On a white piece of paper are two objects: a religious service brochure for
the III Amphibious Corps (left) and a booklet detailing the activities of the III Amphibious Corps
in World War II (right).)
INTERVIEWER: Okay, this brochure looks like a religious service Order of Worship, is
that right?
Yes, at the conclusion of the war, gratitude for peace.
INTERVIEWER: I see.
That the war was over.
�Slager, Kenneth
INTERVIEWER: And this booklet here, what is that?
That’s just telling about the first activities of the 3rd Amphibious Corps.
INTERVIEWER: I see.
Up until the Invasion of Guam.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. (56:40)
(The scene changes. A garrison cap sits on a white sheet of paper.)
INTERVIEWER: Now the garrison cover here, again, was that yours during the war?
Yes it was.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Yes.
INTERVIEWER: With the—
Part of my uniform.
INTERVIEWER: —Eagle, globe and anchor here.
That’s right. Eagle, globe and anchor.
INTERVIEWER: Alright.
(The camera view changes. It is a headshot of Slager, but the background has changed.)
INTERVIEWER: Well Ken we’re about at the end here, let me just ask you is there
anything else you would like to add to the interview?
That I’d like to add?
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, right.
Not that I can think of right now.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
�Slager, Kenneth
Thankfully got home safely.
INTERVIEWER: Well we’re glad that came about.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: And we’re glad the Lord watched over you while you were overseas.
Right.
INTERVIEWER: Watched over your family throughout your career as a minister here in
the United States.
Yup.
INTERVIEWER: Well I wanna thank you about your sharing your recollections with us
about your military service, and I want to add that the interview is going to be part of the
Veterans History Project at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. and also will be
part of the archive at Grand Valley State University in Allendale, Michigan. Again I want to
thank you for participating in the Veterans History Interview.
No, thank you for asking me.
INTERVIEWER: You’re quite welcome.
Including me.
INTERVIEWER: Thank you, Ken. (58:25)
�
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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SlagerK1767V
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Slager, Kenneth
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2015-05
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Slager, Kenneth (Interview transcript and video), 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Kenneth Slager was born on June 11, 1925 in Kalamazoo, Michigan, where his father worked for Upjohn Pharmaceutical Company. Slager was the oldest of four children in his deeply religious family, attended Kalamazoo Christian High School, and worked for his uncle’s celery field during his early teenage years. He received a draft notice in the summer of 1943 and opted to volunteer for the Marine Corps. He underwent Basic Training in San Diego and spent two months in Marine Boot Camp before graduating onto two months of Advanced Infantry Training. He was then shipped to New Caledonia and then Guadalcanal aboard the USS President Tyler, without escort, in a Replacement Battalion. Slager arrived at Guadalcanal after the fighting had receded and was assigned to a Military Police Company in the Headquarters Battalion, Third Amphibious Corps. As an MP, he escorted Admirals and Generals, guarded gates and entrances, directed traffic, guarded the Corps’ Brigg, as well as raised and lowered the American flag each day. From Guadalcanal, Slager was involved in the invasion of Guam in the summer of 1944 and was also allocated towards the invasion of Okinawa where he escorted high-ranking personnel. Slager’s cousin was also serving in Okinawa in the Army, but he was killed by an enemy sniper while on guard duty, which was devastating for Slager. From Okinawa, he was transferred back to Guam in preparation for the proposed invasion of Tokyo Bay, Japan. However, the invasion was called off after the use of the atomic bombs leading to its unconditional surrender. Slager was then sent to China for four months under fears that the Soviet Union would stage an invasion of China. Afterwards, he was shipped back to the San Diego aboard the USS Roi and was transferred to Great Lakes Naval Station for discharge in March of 1946. Slager then returned home to Kalamazoo, enrolled into Calvin College, became an Ordained Christian Reformed Minister out of Willmar, Minnesota, and married his wife in August of 1949. He fully retired by January of 1988 and decided to move back to his childhood home to take care of his elderly mother before moving to Grand Rapids, Michigan and partaking in the Civil Air Patrol. Reflecting upon his service, Slager did not believe that the Corps left a lasting impression on his character other than exposing him to a personal religious awakening in China.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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video/mp4
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5efeab1d4c059ad954c6fc3fc808691.mp4
28c198443a28e90d5a1ca9fd2ed93990
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5df9fc3d8cb089a875b32137e66b1c7.pdf
08a687c24f0f46a4a0d057bdb1693714
PDF Text
Text
Senior, Alan
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee’s Name: Alan Senior
Length of Interview: (50:53)
Interviewed by: Tony Lupo
Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo
Interviewer: “Here with Alan Senior, February 20, 2003. Served in World War II, Sergeant
in the U.S. Army Air Corps, and he was a waist gunner on a B-24. Could you describe
when you heard about Pearl Harbor and what effect did it have on you and your family?”
I remember very distinctly what I was doing on December 7, 1941. I was riding in a girlfriend’s
car. I was sitting in the middle next to her and there was another girl on the other side, and we
were just driving around visiting some friends. The announcement came over the radio about the
attack and the reaction, as you can imagine, to some juniors in high school was wondering
what’s going to happen. What’s going to happen to us as we were of the military age, coming up.
It wasn’t any great feeling of despair, shock, and worry. We just knew that we were going to be
at war and we were going to win it. It never occurred that anything else could be the outcome.
(1:36).
Interviewer: “Were you drafted or did you enlist?”
I came close to being drafted but I did enlist in the Voluntary Induction Program. I wanted to be
a flyer and the only way you could assume that you were going to be in the Air Force was to join
the Air Cadets. So I proceeded to take the exams and did that all. I even had my service record
with me except— the one part that wasn’t accepted and completed was the weight and the
physical. Being a skinny kid at 17 at the time, I only weighed 121 pounds and I had to weigh 128
to get in. Here I was, with the countdown to my 18th birthday coming in May and I couldn’t gain
any weight. So, we worked around that. A friend of mine told me about drinking a gallon of
water because of “the pint a pound the world around.” We got in my dad’s car, drove to the post
office in Buffalo. New York and parked outside on the street— early morning— and I proceeded
to drink as much of that gallon of water as I could except for maybe an inch or two on the
bottom. I just couldn't hold anymore and told my friend, “Let’s go.” He steered me across the
street up to the fourth floor of the federal building and when I got up there— I had been up there
several times before trying to get weighed to pass. There was a line stretching down the hall
around the corner and I said to my friend that I’ll never make it if I have to stay at the bottom of
�that line. So I went up to the Sergeant who knew me by sight— by that time— and he said,
“Senior, what are you doing here?” I said, “Sir, I want to get weighed.” He said okay, so he
stopped the line, I stepped on the scales, and he asked me how much I was supposed to weigh. I
said, “128.” He said, “You just made it. Now get the heck out of here.” You can imagine how
happy I was at the time and I have to say, we never passed a gas station on the 14 mile ride
home. (4:18).
Interviewer: “Why did you pick the service branch that you joined?”
Oh. I always wanted to fly. I wanted to be a pilot and I just couldn’t imagine being in the Navy
or the Army, I just had to do that. I would not have— I can’t imagine what life would have been
if I hadn’t been to the Air Force.
Interviewer: “Do you recall your first days in the service and what did it feel like?”
There were two of us from— that were going into the Air Force. I was living in a small town of
under 6,000 people outside of Buffalo, New York. So my two friends would board the train at
night, going to Greensboro, North Carolina where we had basic. That was the last I saw my two
friends. They went their way and I went mine. They both became— I think— navigators, and I
didn’t quite make it through the Air Cadet program. I became your aerial gunner. So basic
training was in June in North Carolina— wasn’t any great hardship. It was quite a change of life
for me. I was the only child and there’s not too many accommodations you have to make. The
biggest one I had to make in the service was eating the army food because it wasn’t all good, in
my opinion. (6:12).
Interviewer: “After boot camp and gunnery training where exactly were you stationed?
What unit were you attached to?”
Well the basic training, and then I went to a couple training schools, and then after that I made it
to Laredo, Texas for gunnery. Like the Army does things, I attended the winter in Vermont and
the gunnery school in Texas [for] June, July, and August. And it was hot. In fact, I have the
clipping that was taken out of the base paper that said, “The mercury skids to refreshing 113.”
Talk about gaining weight, I lost what little weight I had then and when I left I weighed 115. It
got so hot that we couldn’t fly the airplanes because they couldn’t be serviced. Physical training
was canceled, which the Army never does, but it just was miserable. That’s where I learned how
to drink iced tea. We were out on the gunnery range and they had a big wash-tub there and
they’d throw 100 pound cakes of ice in there and then throw the tea in there. Then you— at
break time— you took a canteen cup and elbowed your way up to the wash-tub to get yourself a
cold drink.
�Interviewer: “What unit were you ultimately attached to?”
At that time we were still in the training mode so it wasn't a unit so much. From there we went to
Lincoln, Nebraska where we became assigned to a crew. There was a pilot, a co-pilot, and all the
other elements and jobs assigned. The way it turned out, I’ve been trained as a nose gunner.
Come to find out they had two nose gunners, so they didn’t have any turret guns. [With] my
enthusiasm I said, “Well I’ll do that.” I didn’t realize that was going to mean considerably more
hours training to use the ball turrets. It’s not claustrophobic for me, it was just the idea of being
isolated that bothered me a little bit, but all my work and worry was mitigated when we went to
England because the Second Air Division had decided to take out the ball turrets. So, I became a
waist gunner which was much better. I knew what was going on as a waist gunner because I
could see more than the pilot or anyone else. Although, statistically the waist gunners suffered
the highest casualty rate of any position on the airplane, which I didn’t learn until later. It
wouldn’t have much difference because you’re there. You’re either going to make it or break it.
(9:27).
Interviewer: “Do you remember arriving at your base in England and where was this base
located?”
Well first let me say that we flew overseas. We picked up a brand new B-24 and flew— we
picked it up at Topeka, Kansas and flew it to Grenier Field, New Hampshire. Then on our way
overseas we flew to Goose Bay, Labrador [and] Bluey Islet, Newfoundland. Then, from there to
Iceland— and because of the weather we spent two glorious weeks in Iceland— and flew onto
Wales. From Wales we left our airplane, were picked up by transport, and taken to another
supply base for a few days. We were assigned to the 446 Bomb Group in Bungie, Norwich
which is [in] East Anglia, sort of northeast from London.
Interviewer: “Could you describe your living conditions at your base?”
It was the usual barracks with the cots. What was different from the barracks in the states was
they had three little charcoal stoves and the mattresses, instead of being all one piece, there were
three different separate pieces— they were called biscuits and they were always separating while
you slept, and you sagged down in between the biscuits. But, it was fine. It wasn’t a hardship at
all. I didn’t feel that it was bad. (11:22).
Interviewer: “How many missions did you fly, and over what period of time?”
We arrived in England in January and we started flying, I suppose, in March. We only flew ten
missions and the war ended. I flew— the last mission that the 8th Air Force flew on April 25,
1945 to Salzburg, Germany. It was my second trip— or our second trip to Salzburg, which is in
�Southern Germany bordering the Alps. So we flew ten missions from March, no maybe it was
February to April 25. We were flying quite regularly, so we would have had our 30 missions in
pretty soon if the war had not ended.
Interviewer: “Do you remember or could you list specific or typical mission targets or
objectives?”
Well as the war was winding down, the Air Force was asked to concentrate on transportation;
which would be the trains, the synthetic gasoline, and airfields. Really, the way it turned out
afterwards, if the United States–– or the Allies–– had concentrated on those targets the war might
have ended earlier because the railroads were rebuilt over the next few days and were in
operation at night; but the bridges, the airfields, and particularly the oil and the ersatz gasoline.
They couldn’t move without the oil, and they produced just as many airplanes when the war was
ending as they did at the start of the war–– some 8,000 units–– but they didn’t have enough fuel
or enough pilots to fly them. They couldn’t practice, they couldn’t teach anybody to fly the Me262, which was a wonderful airplane–– 100 miles faster than the P-51–– and it was fortunate for
us that they didn’t because it would have devastated the bomber train. (14:17).
Interviewer: “Could you describe your duties during the mission? For example, what tasks
did you perform, what were the problems encountered, and how do you feel your job
contributed to your bomb group’s success?”
I was trained as an armorer and I was an armored gunner for the group for the crew. A lot of the
training for armor was taken over by the ground crew, so my duties didn’t involve the
installation of the guns or anything with the gun barrels because the ground crew did that. I did
the distributing of the escape packets and the rations that we would use if we had to bail out.
Primarily, my biggest job–– the most responsible job–– was arming the bombs, which was the
method of putting in arming wires attached to the bomb racks and taking out the cotter pins. In
the tail fuse they had a propeller [which] was held in place by a cotter pin. My job was to collect
all the cotter pins so I could show the pilot afterwards that I had–– that the bombs were armed
when they left the airplane–– then [to] insert the wires. In one particular mission–– the weather
was always bad and in this mission it was bad. As we approached 10,000 feet–– we had to go on
oxygen at 11,000 [feet]–– I was told to go ahead and arm the bombs, which I did. I [had] just sat
down and in about 15 minutes the pilot said, “The mission is off, go put the cotter pins back in.”
By that time we’re passing towards 11,000 feet–– it gets a little bit cold and you can’t take the
cotter pins out with your gloves on, and you can’t have an oxygen mask there. I was one of those
people who–– I required my oxygen before 11,000 feet–– I felt better with that. I put the cotter
pins back in, took out the arming wires, and put the carbons back in. Then went back to the waist
and sat down and in ten minutes I was told the mission was on again, take the cotter pins out, put
the arming wires in. This time it’s close to 11,000 feet and it’s getting colder because this was
�still in the wintertime or springtime. I did that, collected my cotter pins and sat down again and it
wasn’t ten minutes more and I was told to put the cotter pins back in. By that time the cotter pins
looked like a snake–– they were bent out of shape, I couldn't get them in the holes, it was getting
cold, and you had to be careful because desperation started to take over and you couldn’t let the
crew down. I said, “I’ve got to do this,” and the cotter pins kept dropping on the bomb bay and
then I’d have to move over and I couldn’t reach it with one hand, so I’d have to reach it with two
and that means propellers start turning. Just by force of will I was able to get those bent cotter
pins for the third time back in the tail fuse. What made it difficult was they were having a sort of
cluster bombs–– they weren’t large bombs. It might have been 250 pounds or not over 500
pounds and they had the tail fins, and they’re sharp and you have to get your hand down and
around. You know, you just say, “I’ve got to do this. There’s no substitution for failure. You
gotta do it.” I can’t call up the pilot and say, “Hey, I can’t do this.” You would never think of
doing that. It was done and I went back and sat down and at that moment I would have given up
a week’s, or better yet, a month’s pay for a pair of three dollar Sears pliers to straighten those
things up. We proceeded to turn around and come back to base, and the worst part about it is we
didn’t get any mission credit for all that. We just had another nice long airplane ride. (19:33).
Interviewer: “Could you tell me about a couple of your most memorable experiences of your
missions flown over Europe?”
Well the one I just described was the main one. There never were any real scary situations. We
did lose an engine over a target. We came back on three engines–– I think that was more due to
engine malfunction than through enemy action–– and we had to pull out and fly alongside the
bomber stream. On our way back it was uneventful. The fighters came over and let us know that
they were watching us and taking care of us. Then another time we had a bomb rack for some
cluster bombs hit our wing and it was embedded in the wing, so it caused a little drag but didn’t,
fortunately, hit an engine so we were alright there. We didn’t have to fall out of the formation
there. Looking at the other airplanes and seeing the flak that someone had to go through–– we
really were fortunate. The anti-aircraft guns couldn’t fire at everybody, so they’d either pick your
group or the group behind you [or] the group ahead of you. The same is true of fighter
interceptions. We’d get an alert, the pilots would say, “Okay. Gunners be on alert, the group
ahead of us is experiencing fighter attacks.” We’d get all ready and there wouldn’t be any––
they’d hit the group behind us. There were a lot of groups or planes that weren’t so fortunate. I
remember seeing the battery of four anti-aircraft guns tracking a B-17 group, I believe it was,
about maybe half to three-quarters of a mile flying alongside of us. The last plane in the
formation–– there’s this burst of four, fire would be a little closer each time and then we turned
for our initial point to make our bomb run, so I never did learn to see what happened–– it didn’t
look good because there was the flak which was very heavy. It was more of a danger than
fighters were at that time because of the Luftwaffe was beaten except for the Me-262 attacks. A
crew member and a bunk member–– not a member of our crew, but another gunner–– he did get
�credit for shooting one down that flew in his formation. I wasn’t on that mission but it was one or
two days before or after mine. (23:06).
Interviewer: “Was there something special you did for good luck?”
No. I really don’t believe in those things, but we always went to mass for the Chaplin. It didn’t
make any difference to me whether it was Catholic or Protestant. We went and you just tried to
be alert and do the best you can. I don’t think luck has something to do with after the event, but
in getting ready for it luck plays no part of it.
Interviewer: “Were you awarded any medals or citations and if so, how did you get them?”
My service time was pretty uneventful. Like many others we got the Air Medal and that was the
extent of it. We had it very easy compared to the men who went over in 43 and 42. They were
writing the book because they went along there. Our group went over in 40 through 43 and had
one of the best safety records of any group. That was partly due to the tight formations we flew
and as a tribute to that our group was chosen to lead the Eighth Air Force on D-Day because of
bombing accuracy and known for our on-time performances which means that we were formed
and ready to go with the proper time and reached the rendezvous point at the proper time. It’s a
tribute to the crews, at that time, that we did that. (25:26).
Interviewer: “During downtime how often did you or were you able to stay in touch with
your family?”
Five letters, that was all. Fortunately, I didn’t have any girlfriends and I wasn’t married, and I
wasn’t even close to being married, so I didn’t have any girl problems about not hearing from
them or any “Dear John” letters. I was just a young boy having a great adventure and I can talk
about it and I’m proud of the service–– a lot of it–– and of course it is because I was not hurt. I
didn’t suffer, I know some other people did. They don’t want to talk about it and I understand
that, but it was a significant part of my life that I remember. I didn’t win the war by any stretch
of imagination but––
Interviewer: “What did you think of officers or the fellow soldiers that you served with?”
I’d say the Air Force officers were good. One part about it, they were highly trained and
therefore well educated and did their jobs well. Not everybody in the crew was a bosom pal of
mine. Seems like we were all from different states, but the pilot and I got along very well. We
had a relationship after the war until he passed on. One interesting factor about that [is] his
grandson never knew his grandfather, so he wanted to learn more about what his grandfather did
in the war and he was smart enough to figure out how to do that. He went ahead and on an
�internet site, got an email address, and this is luck. He went ahead and emailed this individual
over there and wanted to know, “Do you know Alan Senior? He was with Bob Drake’s crew.”
And he–– out of all the people he could have had to see his email, was an English man who I’d
met in England and he and his wife had come over and visited our house here. He wrote back
and he said, “Of course I know Alan Senior. Here’s his address, his telephone number,” and that
young man–– Michael Anthony–– I’m his surrogate grandfather. I just recently came back from
attending his wedding at Jekyll Island, Georgia and he and the family just treated Joyce and
myself like family. He is a wonderful young man, just wonderful. He’s a former Eagle Scout,
graduated from Valdosta College in Georgia. The whole family is, you know, they wanted me to
tell them about their father. There’s a son and two daughters, so at Jekyll Island–– I’ve
previously sent them quite a few pictures–– but it just made me feel good that I could help them
connect. (29:36).
Interviewer: “How would you perceive the American attitude towards the local civilian
population?”
In England it was just wonderful. The local people were somewhat standoffish because they’re
more conservative than we are, but after a while they liked us. We shared some of our rations
with them–– some good times with them. If I’ve got time I’d like to just tell you a story, and it’s
another coincidence. When I was in about the tenth grade, the English teacher said we needed to
get pen pals. I got a pen pal from a girl from England. So, we corresponded back and forth and I
told her that with the war, I might come over to England, you know. I might be over there in the
Air Force and the way it came about, I did–– I went to meet her. She lived in Todmorden which
is up near Manchester in the industrial section. Her name was Florence Britain, if you can
believe that, and we just had a wonderful weekend. I took one of my crew members–– the other
waist gunner–– with me and I had somehow gotten a box of Whitman’s chocolate, some
lipsticks, and some stockings and took them up there and met Florence and her mother and her
father and sister. We had a candlelight dinner because of the blackout and Mrs. Britain the next
morning–– we stayed in a pub–– so after breakfast she came by and picked us up and walked us
down to the market holding my arm. She introduced us and she said, “This is Florence’s friend
from America, Alan.” It was just a wonderful experience. Who would have ever thought that that
would have happened, you know. That’s like the lottery odds are now. But, that was another nice
experience that I had and I corresponded with them when I got back to the States and then we’d
started drifting apart. (32:17).
Interviewer: “In general, with your interactions with other British civilians, how did you
perceive their attitude towards you and your crewmates?”
There was some rivalry there and it was partly our fault. We had, you know, the old expression.
We were overpaid, over sexed, over there, that was part of it. A lot of it probably was accidental,
�I don’t think any of us tried to do that. I know my friends didn’t. On one of our one or two or
three day passes we had in London, you’d go into a pub and there’d always be somebody there
wanting to challenge you somewhat. In fact, I got in a taxi–– another crew member and myself––
and there were two Americans in there and they got after us. They said, “You damn guys
bombed us,” and named some city and I said, “Well, it’s really hard to tell at 20,000 feet who’s
down there and your leaders–– your officers–– should have been in touch with the Allies to tell
them ‘Don’t bomb here.’ You folks did a great job, you moved so fast, and we had our orders.
We dropped the bombs there as ordered.” Needless to say we were dying to get out of that taxi. I
don’t think they really bought my story very well but that’s understandable as well. (34:07).
Interviewer: “In addition to some of the stories you’ve told us, could you describe any more
memorable stories of events in England during the war?”
No. I think that covers it. We were all very happy, of course, when the war ended and then we
started to think about going back to the States to be trained as B-29 crewmen to go to the Pacific.
Which–– you know–– that’s the way the war is. As we went from–– we got a three day furlough
then we reported to Sioux Falls, South Dakota for reassignment. While we were there, of course,
they dropped the two atomic bombs, the war ended, and we were dispersed all over the United
States. I went to Marshfield, California and had some little job. I was a part of another group––
we safety wired a part on a B-29 engine, you know. It was just a make-work type of thing. Then
the point system came along and I argued a little bit and they agreed that I had enough points to
get out, so I got out in December. I remember walking–– I had my barracks bag and headed
down towards the train station–– and I walked past a restaurant and they were playing “I’ll Be
Home for Christmas” and sure enough, I was. (35:49).
Interviewer: “Do you recall where you were when–– exactly where you were–– when the
war ended?”
Do you mean when the bombs were dropped or––
Interviewer: “Yes. Or both if you recall.”
[When] the bombs were dropped, I was in Sioux Falls, South Dakota waiting for reassignment.
That’s when the war ended but the surrender documents were not assigned until September, I
believe.
Interviewer: “How about V-E Day?”
An interesting sidelight to that–– the war ended on, I think, May 8. May 9 we were allowed to
make a tourist flight, I guess you would say, to Germany in some of the bombed out cities at
�maybe 1,000 feet. We flew down the Rhine River and I could look out my waist window and I
didn’t see any sky, I just saw the bank of the Rhine River–– we were that low. It was so
interesting, I just wish I’d had a video camera or could’ve taken some pictures because there’s so
much you’re seeing that you can assimilate at all, but it was wonderful. We saw planes that had
been forced landed, we saw where there had been tracks of big tank fights, trenches. The
devastation of the German cities was terrible, just terrible. (37:34).
Interviewer: “Did you work or go back to school after the war?”
I came back and started immediately to go to school and everybody had to have a part-time job
doing something. I did that, went to school three days a week, and then I got married somewhere
along the line, and got my degree–– I’m trying to think of the year. It was probably 1950.
Interviewer: “Did you receive the benefits from the GI Bill and go out to school?”
Yes, and that was a great benefit. I think also for our country because it raised the educational
level of the average man/woman in the street several notches over what it would’ve been. I was
the first part of my family to go to college and graduate. My dad went to the ninth grade, my
mother finished high school and was a rural teacher for one semester I think. I think that was one
of the great things that happened, the GI Bill. (39:05).
Interviewer: “Did your participation in the war contribute to your making this decision
beyond the GI Bill? Did it motivate you to want to go back to school in any way?”
Oh, yes. [When] I was in high school I had been a very poor student and I wanted an opportunity
to do better. I realized that I needed it to go on and do all these grandiose things that 20/21-yearold people have.
Interviewer: “What did you go on to do as a career, after the war?”
Well, with a degree in Psychology–– which was a waste of time–– I went into the property
casualty insurance business and stayed in it all of my adult life.
Interviewer: “Did your military experience influence your thinking about war or the
Military in general?”
Well it would have too. If you had any sensibilities at all, it gives me an appreciation for the
people who are in the Military–– even today, particularly today. Nothing was more saddening to
me than what the Vietnam boys went through. The American people should be ashamed of
themselves for what they did to those veterans.
�Interviewer: “What are the experiences that stand out after all this time, that you’re most
proud of?” (40:56).
My perseverance to get into the Army–– the Air Force. If you want something badly enough and
[you] make a commitment, it can happen. Although I didn’t go on to be the pilot that I wanted to
be, I did the next best thing [which] is being a crew member. So I made my donation or
participation. I think that, to me, is personally what I am proud of. That I did my job the best I
could.
Interviewer: “Is there anything you’d like to add that we have not covered in this
interview?”
I think we’ve covered quite a lot. It’s just that’s the most significant part of my life. I’m proud of
what I did, I’m not bragging about it, but I’m proud that I opted to do what I had to do. (42:57).
Interviewer: “We’ll conclude this interview, Alan. I’d just like to state, before we kill the
camera, that Ryan and I would like to thank you for taking the time for the interview and
we appreciate everything you’ve done in this country and because you were actually in
World War II, we enjoy the freedoms from the fruits of your labor. Thank you very much
sir.”
You’re welcome. I think at my age I realized that and how times have changed so much, and that
our great country is not being–– its virtues are not being taught, explained, expounded and it just
saddens me to think how this country is being destroyed from within. Weakened.
Interviewer: “You know, what amazes me is [that] I can only pretend to know what life was
like in 1943 because I wasn’t there, but I know it was a lot different from what I’ve read
and heard. I think about you being a young man back in 1943 and being thrust into this
great conflict, and going through all the things you went through and everything you
experienced. One thing that I’m always shocked at is how were you guys able to settle back
into civilian life after experiencing all that? I mean, you were flying in B-24s across Europe
in part of the strategic Air Force. How? It always amazed me that how could you come
back and settle in after such–– having to participate in something like that? Was it difficult
for you or did you just take right to it?” (44:54).
I never even thought about it. You just did it. I think growing up in the 40s was probably the
greatest experience that anybody could have. Life in the 40s, in a small town, I am so thankful
for that. We had one high school, a little town, and friendships. The friendships we keep today.
We’re having our 60th high school [reunion], if you believe that. 60th high school reunion. I
�can’t believe I’m that old until I look in the mirror every morning. But it’s–– I’m not much at
conventions/reunions and all that. We never had a high school reunion till 1993 which would be
50 years. So I agonized about that, over going. I went and did you know that some of the people
that were my friends–– because we had a small school–– after 15/20 minutes it was like I never
went away. One of the folks came up and he said, “You know, watching you and Hank talk over
there, it’s like you had never been away.” And I hadn’t seen him for 50 years. But those values––
and you know, that’s multiplied around the United States I’m sure–– but the things we did in the
fun. In fact, I’m going to–– in the last week of March–– I’ve got a condo that we’ve rented in
Hilton Head, South Carolina and three couples are going to be there. (47:10).
Interviewer: “That’s great.”
One was in the Army, one was in the Navy, and the other one is my cousin. He wasn’t in
anything. He was in the service but he didn’t get any combat or anything. It was just a great time
in the 40s. In fact, I’ve been asked to work-up a program for the museum. Fort Bend County
Museum on life in the 40s. I’ve been a little hesitant to do all that. I’ve got the research done,
now I just have to write it. One of the things that we did participate in as a member of the
Confederate Air Force [was] Texas Southern University here had an aviation program for four
years, I believe, and we were asked to provide speakers and I spoke on the development of air
power from World War I through World War II. That was interesting. I had to do some research
on that myself and it’s usually the case that the speaker learns more than the students do from
listening. I did that until the program was–– they lost their funding for it. But, that was good and
some of those young people could care less but one or two of them, I think, were really
interested, which is about average. I try to teach my son about the importance of being
responsible for your own behavior and your decisions. You make a bad decision, you work like
hell to correct it or learn from it. His son–– I’ve got videos of the war and books. I said, “When
Corey gets to the age of being a junior in high school, I want you to play these things and talk it
over with him because he’s not going to get it in the school books.” He’ll think World War II
might be a paragraph like it is now. (49:32).
Interviewer: “That’s true. It’s interesting you mentioned that. One of the primary
motivating factors for me to get involved and try to record and archive living history, you
know, was the birth of my two sons and hoping that at least one of them will appreciate
history and the lessons we must learn from it–– as much as I do. I was thinking the same
thing that you were thinking. It’s like, what can I show them? What resources can I direct
them towards? I’m hoping that someday if he really wants to learn the real deal, as they
say, he can access information like this at the Library of Congress and get a more
meaningful picture of the real people who participated in World War II and in other
foreign wars.
�Don’t overlook the fact that there are some good videos that he can look at, and some good
books that will direct the thinking. I must have 200 books out there and I told my son, “If you
ever place any of those in the garage sale for 25 or 50 cents, I’m going to come back and slap the
hell out of you.”
Interviewer: “You’re going to haunt him.” (50:53).
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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SeniorA2363V
Creator
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Senior, Alan
Date
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2003-02
Title
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Senior, Alan (Interview transcript and video), 2021
Description
An account of the resource
Alan Senior was born May 19, 1925 and grew up in a small town outside of Buffalo, New York. Senior was just a junior in high school when the bomb was dropped at Pearl Harbor, leading to questions about what was going to happen to him as he approached military age. Around the time Senior turned 18, he enlisted in the Voluntary Induction Program due to his dreams of becoming a flyer, therefore, joining the Air Cadets to guarantee his spot with the Air Force. Senior attended basic training in Greensboro, North Carolina where he didn’t quite make it through the Air Cadets program. Instead, Senior became an aerial gunner. This is when Senior went down to Laredo, Texas for gunnery school. Finally, after months of training Senior and his crew headed overseas to England where they were stationed. During their time in England, Senior and his crew were only able to fly ten missions before the war ended. Due to his time with the Air Force, Senior received the Air Medal and his crew was recognized for their particularly strong safety record. After being sent home from England, Senior went to Sioux Falls, South Dakota for reassignment. However, this is when the final bombs were dropped and the war thus “ended.” Eventually, after Senior was discharged from the service he went back to school and pursued a degree in Psychology. He then worked in the property casualty insurance business and stayed there for his entire adult life.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Lupo, Tony (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
Type
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Moving Image
Text
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a6830d7f494dc9a00939e0a9358c8765.mp4
cdae61877bfeb92cee8b4a6640af6eb5
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75181e864878d99a26c82d9f04bdf50d.pdf
3be3bafc7cb839c72c57d00b4f2f66f8
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Cold War
Interviewee’s Name: David Scherer
Length of Interview: 2:42:08
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Sam Noonan
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with David Scherer of Allendale, Michigan, and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History
Project. Start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and
when were you born?”
I was born November 27th, 1960, in Newburgh, Indiana. Small little farming community next to
the Ohio River. We’re just outside of Evansville, Indiana, and—
Interviewer: “What was your family doing for a living then?”
My dad was a self-contractor plus [he] had a farm. My mother was a nurse for St. Mary’s
Hospital in Evansville.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright. And as you’re growing up, when you’re a kid the Vietnam war
is going on, did you pay any attention to that or was that not really on your radar
screen?”
When we used to eat supper, TV would be on, and the news coverage on television, I
remember them doing, showing the body counts. How many wounded for a day, how many
killed in action, how many enemy… was killed. You’d see them chopperin’ the wounded off by
helicopter, [there would] be a general or a captain talking about that day’s battle. Same time,
eating supper. And my dad wouldn’t say much because my dad was a World War II veteran,
Seabees. So of course, being young, [I thought] ‘Ooh, military! Something military on the TV!’
Had a friend, his son was in Vietnam. And he didn’t talk about it very much, I never knew what
happened to his son growing up, nothing was said so that family moved out, never saw them
again, and – but still, to talk of Vietnam… the protesting on TV, I remember watching them burn
their draft cards. I was in my teens, very early – thirteen, fourteen – and then once the end of
Vietnam, you know, just kind of went away. Except for what you saw on TV about the veterans,
the veterans that were upset – veterans that, they’ve had it with America, they’re gonna move
out west, out in the mountains, get lost. That was it. And my dad did belong to [the] American
Legion, what veterans there were, Vietnam veterans, they stayed to themselves. To me they
were young guys, and the World War II veterans, I’d still remember my dad and his friends,
couldn’t understand why these guys… I remember the word ‘selfish’ was being used. The World
War II veterans said it. And I could understand… and I do remember these guys, when they did
�get drunk they were hostile. Especially toward the World War II veterans. But then high school
rolled around, Vietnam wasn’t talked [about] in history, still everything in history was World War
II – very little was talked about Vietnam. Graduated high school in 1979, and still there was no
talk about Vietnam at that period, if you were a Vietnam soldier - they kept very quiet. And then I
do remember the news talking about the [casualties], and then Agent Orange. That was starting
to become a big thing in the late ‘70’s.
(4:40)
Interviewer: “Now so what did you do after you graduated high school?”
Worked on a farm. Bunch of us guys used to hang around, you know, being a small town, go to
the river, frog around there, had our cars, had our pickup trucks. Farming was starting to
become very bad, my dad’s business wasn’t doing very good, and back home it was either
working – either at a coal mine or farming, or the military. 1980 rolled around and… actually the
reason – if my wife was here she would tell you exactly why I joined the military, besides the
work. I was dating a girl and things weren’t working out very well between her and I, and I got
this thing in my head, ‘Join the army! Maybe she’ll come and stop you.’ Well the day came to
get on the bus, she didn’t show up at the bus station. By then I’d already raised my right hand, I
was sworn in.
Interviewer: “Alright, now when you – at the time you enlisted were there a lot of guys
from your community who were going in or did you just walk into a recruiting office and
you’re the only one there or…”
I was the only one there, cause by then everybody was either [in] college or still working on the
farms. The recruiter said, ‘Not too many people from your area…’ Cause everybody was still
talking college.
(6:20)
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you enlist were you given options for what kinds of
training you could take or did you have to – did that all just depend on aptitude tests?”
Aptitude tests. And everything turned out mechanical.
Interviewer: “Alright. Now did you know that before you went off to boot camp or did you
take a lot of these tests at boot camp when you got there?”
I knew that before I went to basic.
Interviewer: “Okay. So where did you do basic?”
Fort Sill, Oklahoma.
�Interviewer: “Alright, and describe that place, what did it look like at the time?”
When I got off the bus at the reception center, everything was nice, clean, tidy, drill instructor
got on the bus, course they’re yelling and they’re screaming and I’m thinking, ‘What did I do?’
And they rushed us through, ran us through the mess hall real quick, and the mess hall was
huge, food was fantastic, I’m like, ‘This is pretty cool.’ Once we got our uniforms and… it was
almost like that one scene [in] Stripes you know, getting the uniform, they’re fitting you, and this
and that. Then they got us in the barracks, there’s one barracks. And… I arrived at Fort Sill July
2nd, by the time I got to the permanent barracks it was July 4th. Open-bay barracks, never saw
nothing like this before. There was bunk beds, we’re all… bald-headed bunch of guys in our
underwear and t-shirts trying to fill each other out, drill instructor said, ‘Time to go to bed.’ Fourth
of July, we’re figuring okay, we’ll get to see fireworks - no. It was hot in Oklahoma, and you’re
laying in bed, you’re sweating, and you hear the fireworks, they did have fans and by then we
were already tired from the hustling around, getting everything together. So laying in your bed,
sweating, hearing the fireworks thinking, ‘What did I do wrong?’ Everybody else was thinking the
same thing too. Well, made it through the night, 5:00 the following morning, drill instructor’s
throwing trash cans down the hallway. That was an experience, hearing trash cans, [being]
called every name that you can think of that they could call you. We’re standing up, some guy’s
still laying in bed and they’re flipping the mattresses off the bunk bed. So we’re getting… get
dressed, showered, shaved, PT and all this. We still had the green uniforms, that’s before the
fatigues. So we wore white tee shirts. And so then basic [started]. And drill instructor – both my
drill instructors were Vietnam vets, I mean I was impressed with their shoulder patches, cause
both of them [were] 7th Cavalry. That’s the big patch with a horse, and one was a white drill
instructor, the other one was Puerto Rican, Sergeant Vega. Short. Man, the looks that these
guys could give you… stop your heart. And they laid it out to us, being mom, dad, preacher, the
whole…. But they’re also here to get you through basic training. Well they were still old school,
how they were trained. They had no problems of putting you into place by.. I want to say a little
more firmer grab, but you’re still called every name [in] the book. So they taught us the
marching, the drills. We’re like, ‘okay, marching, drills.’ Then we went out in the fields. And
taught us weapons, everything. The grenade throwing, how [to] set up your fire points and all
this, and I was thinking, ‘well I’m [going to be] in maintenance, why do I need to know all this?’
No, no, no, no, this is it. But in the process I felt comfortable with my drill instructors. My father
was a depression child, and plus a World War II veteran. Navy. There’s only one way, the right
way. His way, the Navy way. You didn’t moan, groan, complain, and you took a butt chewing.
Just, I mean, you took – well it was a basic drill instructor sitting there screaming [at] you, I
found myself finally comfortable. [I thought], ‘Dad! When’d you turn into a Puerto Rican?’ I
mean, I was comfortable though. And turned out the other guys who had fathers that were in the
military, World War II, depression child, they’re hardcore. They didn’t know nonsense.
(12:02)
Interviewer: “So about how long did it take you to kind of come to that realization?”
�I probably have to say within the third week.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright. So on some level at least, did you understand what they were
doing or were you just in a comfort zone at this point – did you know why they were
doing this?”
Yes. Cause talk to other veterans, World War II veterans, they’re more or less telling you how it
was. If you didn’t pay attention to your training, you could lose your life. And my father, when he
was in the Navy he was also a Seabee, so they were doing construction. Do it right the first
time. And that’s how it was in basic, do it right.
Interviewer: “And you’ve done farm work and stuff so you could probably handle the
physical side of It pretty well?”
Plus playing in high school football. I’m still in pretty good shape, compared to now, but yes –
the running, the physical training part? It was easy.
Interviewer: “Alright. So how long was the basic?”
Six weeks.
Interviewer: “Okay. And then what do you do after those six weeks?”
Then we graduated. Then you gotta wait for orders to go to another school, your AIT –
Advanced Individual Training.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay, and what was yours?”
Mine? I was a forty-one Charlie. Considered fire control repair. When you look in your sight, you
had to make sure what you’re looking at, your barrel of the armored vehicle was looking at the
same thing. There was a lot of optics and mechanical gears involved.
Interviewer: “Did you do this at Fort Sill or did you go somewhere else?”
Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland.
Interviewer: “And how was being there different from being at Fort Sill?”
It was a different animal because we didn’t have drill instructors there, we had platoon
sergeants. We still had the marching, but they marched us to school – where our barracks were.
And where the school was, I’d say a good five, six blocks. And these were old barracks that we
stayed in, but we still you know, had to keep our things extremely clean, did inspections left and
right, but still being marched to school. Look forward to the weekends, we had weekends off, it
was like ‘wow!’ And got to explore Baltimore, we were allowed to leave post. But Monday
�morning, marching back to that school. And at school… was at first very basic, our instructors,
they had the same M.O. as you, and so that’s when we started working on optics and the
mechanical gears – on tanks and artillery pieces. From the most simplest things to binoculars.
Then at the most complicated thing, a ballistic computer which belonged in an M60 tank. And
everybody was excited, ballistic computers – this was still 1980. You know, inside a tank was a
white box, cast aluminum with a lid. Took off the screws, had [a] couple handles on the outside,
two mechanisms coming on the top. Popped the screw on this thing, excited – a computer!
Looked in it, it’s ran by a bicycle chain. (laughter) I’m telling you, it’s true. Then it had a cam
system and what the gunner would do, he’d turn a knob for what round they were shooting and
what distance. Well, turn all this with the … and electric motor and the bicycle chain would turn
the cams, which elevator to press the gun to. But still, the shock of seeing a bicycle chain in a
ballistic computer.
(16:30)
Interviewer: “Now was it a computer only [in the] sense of being a machine that
calculated things, as opposed to you know, having all the integrated circuits and all—”
Circuit cards and everything, yeah. But that was the technology for the M60 tank from 1960 ‘til
they started modifying the tank to an A1, A2, and the fire control systems got a little more
complicated but not by much. And… but everything was still being dealt with optics. Nice, clean
environment, no grease, no dirt.
Interviewer: “Okay, now how much – was there a lot of math involved with what you were
doing?”
There was quite a bit of math involved, especially when it came to the mechanized gears –
cause you had to make sure you had everything tolerated, count it just right, how many
revolutions, broke down by… what it required for. There was also a lot of electricity involved too,
so you had [an] oscilloscope, multimeter, rheostats, and all this that we were replacing.
Interviewer: “Okay. So then you’re … electronics at the same time?”
Mhm.
Interviewer: “Now was there enough math that you got to use a calculator? I mean the
handheld calculator existed by then, but was that part of what you used at that point?”
That’s what we used, or if not we did the old math. Wrote our thing down inside the turret with a
pencil.
Interviewer: “But no slide rule?”
No slide rule no.
�Interviewer: “Yeah, they stopped teaching us that. Okay, alright. And how long was that
training session?”
That was a year.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright. So daily life was basically just get up in the morning, march
off to breakfast, go to school—”
School, did our P.T. and then typical military life you know, barracks and then we started
watching the numbers of the guys that weren’t around no more, cause we were also having
testing quite a bit. And what the instructors used to love to do, as soon as you work on
something, they would come in later on, take screws out, take this out – well you’re so confident
that you worked on the piece earlier, you knew it was gonna be fine. Well all of the sudden it’s
not working. Why is it not working? So you’re freaking out but you didn’t think about them
sabotaging the part. You’re panicking, and can’t find out what’s wrong, so they might take a
unhooked wire that you knew was hooked earlier, so they kept you on your feet like that. Then
they started introducing Soviet stuff that was captured. We couldn’t believe how basic this
Soviet equipment was, their sights compared to our sights.
Interviewer: “I did once interview somebody who was serving in Germany in the ‘70s and
they got to see inside of a T-72 tank, and he said a lot of it was of wood.”
Their stuff was very crude compared to our stuff.
Interviewer: “Alright, now when you would go into town into Baltimore or whatever, I
mean you’d be going in there and you’d have short hair and so forth, would people know
you are military to look at you, or…”
(19:58)
Cause long hair was still popular… you would stick out like a sore thumb.
Interviewer: “How did people treat soldiers at that point?”
We didn’t brag that much about – I mean they knew we were soldiers, only time… when you
went back home on leave, somebody would- ‘Hey, you’re in the Army’ [and they would buy you
a drink.]
Interviewer: “So you weren’t getting any kind of old Vietnam backlash, or.. I suppose
being [in] Southern Indiana you wouldn’t hit a whole lot of that anyway, but there were
some areas where if you were in the military people might look down on you or—”
�I got that at Chicago O’Hare Airport, cause I was in uniform. And I had a woman, wanted to
know, ‘are we still trained on killing babies?’ And I looked at her and I just walked away. Then a
couple of us went into a bar at O’Hare, and we were just minding our own business. Couple of
guys told us about Vietnam and they told us about their experience walking through that airport
and – early ‘70s, and they’re like, ‘You shouldn’t be walking through here in uniform.’ And you
know, they told us about their experiences. Yelled at, screamed at.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so there’s a little bit of that left over but clearly not like it was-”
No, nothing like what it was.
Interviewer: “Okay. So now you kind of, you get to the end of this year’s training, now
how long had you enlisted for? What was the length of enlistment?”
First time, four years.
Interviewer: “Okay. And so you’re basically a little over a year into it at this point, once
you complete that training what do they do with you?”
It was the waiting game, just like being in college. When you took your final exams and it’s
posted on the board. There was orders posted on a board, and when I enlisted, first thing the
recruiter says, ‘Where you want to be stationed at?’ And I said Fort Knox and Fort Campbell, or
Hawaii. Okay, that’s all on the paperwork. So we ran up to this bulletin board, saw orders. You
know how excited … when you’re in college, ‘I passed!’ All of the sudden I hear guys, ‘Germany!
Germany! Korea! Aw, I got Fort Hood, Fort Bliss, Fort Lewis,’ and I’m looking, looking, looking,
‘Scherer!’ Germany. My recruiter said, ‘I will get you Fort Knox, or Fort Campbell. For sure
Hawaii.’ I’m still looking.
Interviewer: “Now Fort Knox and Fort Campbell, why did you prefer those at the time?”
They were 150 miles away from my home.
Interviewer: “Yup, close to home.”
Close to home.
Interviewer: “If you’re gonna go anywhere else, go to Hawaii.”
Hawaii.
(23:08)
Interviewer: “So you get Germany.”
�I got Germany.
Interviewer: “Alright, and now what, if anything do you do to prepare to go over?”
Got a thirty-day leave and [went] back home, hung around my friends, you know, your typical..
like when you came home from college. Hang around your friends and you know, try to pick up
some stuff, and the thirty days was great until probably the last week of that. And I still
remember to the day, all of the sudden it’s time to go. And I had to fly out the local airport, then
fly into JFK. And [I] still had never been to a big city, that big of a city. So got in JFK, big ‘ol
wide-eyed, saw a bunch of other soldiers, we had a station area we had to stay at. Was going
overseas. And just looking at the people at JFK and still In dress greens and excited, it was time
for us to board. Eight hour flight. But there’s no preparation to get ready to go.
Interviewer: “So they’re not teaching you anything about life in Germany or anything else
like that?”
Knew nothing about Germany. To tell you how naïve I was, when we landed at Frankfurt I was
still expecting to see the Hansel and Gretel style homes. That’s how naïve I was! Still seeing
German girls in pigtails and got in Frankfurt and… McDonalds. ‘Where’d these big buildings
come from?’ Where’s the little Hansel and Gretel style homes, and all this? We had a
reassignment area we had to go through, where a unit came [to] pick you up. Spent a day there,
and then I’m noticing everybody’s speaking German. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks, my dad
and family spoke German. One day my [dad] said, ‘You might want to learn how to speak
German.’ Psh! He was right. And my unit came, picked me up.
Interviewer: “And what unit was that?”
The 19th Maintenance Support Battalion.
Interviewer: “Okay. Alright, they come and get you and now what happens?”
They came, got me, and you know the whole ABCs, welcome to Germany, we’re going down
the Autobahn and heading toward the barracks, and I was shocked on how these cars were
driving. We had a military jeep, and just seeing all these cars – how fast! Still, where’s the bricklined roads, cobblestone streets and all this. All of sudden I saw a sign, ‘Welcome to Hanau,
Germany.’ And so I get to my company, 19th Maintenance, old World War II German barracks.
So I got the introduction, had a process and still checking out the barracks, still had marble
floors. But you go down the hallway and it had gun racks in the walls. And homesickness [was]
kicking in by then, I wanted to go home, and… nope, stuck there. Was introduced to everybody,
my platoon sergeant and my squad leader – both of them Vietnam vets. ‘Welcome to Germany,
you’ll have fun, you’ll have a blast.’ Well in the process while we were talking, big … in their
head. ‘We’re gonna have fun, we’re gonna have a blast.’
(27:21)
�Interviewer: “Alright, so now what do they do to kind of orient you or get you up to speed
when you join the unit?”
Well so got into the unit, signed in, then Frank …, he was in the squad I was assigned to, so it’s
his job to get me everything I needed, from all the equipment and make sure all the paperwork’s
signed in, showed me where the PX was on post and all the places that I needed to go. Now the
post still had the cobblestone streets, and the barracks, like I said they were German barracks.
But our motorpool was about five blocks away, and Frank told me about the history of Hanau.
The city of Hanau, during World War II, the city was sacrificed – the lights were left on during
the bombing, during WWII, to save Frankfurt. Nighttime bombing. So we got the history of
Hanau, then the history of [the] 19th Maintenance Battalion. And we were the highest
maintenance battalion you could go to next to the civilians. And the 19th Maintenance Battalion
had a very proud history on turnaround for maintenance, that goes from wheeled vehicles to
track vehicles, weapons, of course armor.
Interviewer: “Now were you supporting units within an Army corps or a whole army or?”
Army corps. We – they had to bring their stuff to us, what they couldn’t fix. We had several
armor battalions we supported, we… their maintenance people brought everything to us, if we
couldn’t fix it then we had to send it to Mannheim, that’s where the civilians were – to repair. But
we were the last stop for them. And we saw some tore up things. Broken optics, how can you
break this? And it’s stuff you never thought of, but we’re still in this nice, clean environment. And
stayed busy, extremely busy.
Interviewer: “And do they ever – do you go out and do field exercises or have other
duties besides just the maintenance work?”
(30:05)
When the armor rode to the field, we rode. And when there was alerts called, then we went to
our rally point out in the field. But we also did a lot of training out there too. You know, setting
up… the general area which we were assigned to, if something would’ve happened, we did a lot
of time in Freiberg, Germany. And my platoon sergeant asked a bunch of us, ‘You guys ever
seen Roman ruins?’ ‘No!’ ‘Ever been to Rome?’ ‘No, never been to Rome.’ Well we’re in a field
there, and he said, ‘You guys want to see Roman ruins?’ I thought he was yanking our chain, all
of the sudden there’s these columns laying on the ground, chiseled columns. It was from when
the Romans were there. Indiana, thinking… Romans? Shows you how much I paid attention,
how much Romans conquered the world. There were these beautiful columns laying there, and
we were eating our meal there, but it was just – I just couldn’t believe it – how far history went.
And… but we did a lot of training out there, sloshing through the mud. And then still working on
the stuff that they brought to us, we worked out a big large truck, and … got dirty, muddy, and
all of this. Lot of practicing on NBC – chemical warfare, and of course nuclear warfare. That was
drilled to us. And constantly drilled, that was our death threat from [the] Soviets. Warsaw Pact.
�They had, we were taught if they do invade it’s going to be chemical warfare – they doubted that
they were going to nuke us. ThenInterviewer: “So for chemical warfare, I mean what – was there protective measures you
would take or?”
We had chemical uniforms. And they had us – I mean, drilled on how to put on a chemical
uniform, how fast can you put on these chemical uniforms. And your mask. And to the point, I
mean you were timed, there we learned all the signals. Then they wanted you comfortable in
these things, walk around with them in a day, you couldn’t pull your mask off. The cigarette
smokers were going through hell. I mean you’re doing everything possible. And they didn’t give
us a break, eat chow or smokes, but then they came up with a brilliant idea – let’s play baseball
in these things. Cause they wanted you to get used to them, and they were charcoal activated –
look inside a chemical suit, it’s all black. Then we were still wearing white t-shirts, so we played
baseball, we played volleyball, and everybody’s sucking wind left and right, time to take our tops
off and so what was the nice white t-shirt? [It] was black. We had to wear rubber gloves, your
hands are pruned, but this, they kept drilling in our heads over time after time and time, that
when an alert would come, how fast can you get your gear together, get it to the truck, have
your weapon ready? This went on and on and there were sometimes where we’d get to the
trucks, we’re moving out. And probably about [the] third month I was there I was on my..
probably fourth alert. And they’d call these things at one o’clock in the morning, never during the
daytime but one o’clock in the morning. It was a race, get everything together that you were
issued. Pile in the back of a deuce and a half, off we went. And then you knew we were going to
go for a longer distance when they put convoy numbers on the trucks.
(34:48)
Then I became a driver, and had a convoy number on my truck. First time driving on the
autobahn, so geeked up. Well [we] had a long drive, we ended up in Grafenwoehr, ‘where is
Grafenwoehr?’ And got there, set up, and same thing all over again, chemical, train, train,
nuclear, they – somebody walked around with a flash on a camera, ‘See the flash? That’s
nuclear!’ Hit the ground. Put your butt toward the flash, cover your head. And so that went on,
ran around [in] MOPP suits. Train with your weapon, still do your job – they’re still bringing parts
to you. ‘Get it out, get it out,’ cause by then the tankers and artillery battalions are at the ranges
– they have to qualify. They wouldn’t need their stuff so you’re getting everything out, still make
sure your job [is being done.] Cause one of the things you were [threatened with] was you screw
it up, that round falls short, kills somebody, your name’s all over that paperwork. And working on
optics was – you know, no more … getting an optic cleaned, set just right. Looking through the
thing there’s a smudge, ‘where did that smudge come from? Where did a piece of dust come
from?’ And of course with being a mechanized gear it had to – everything was set. And still, had
to be put out one hundred percent. And so this went on for a while, and still, chemical, chemical,
chemical, and then one night things changed. That’s when the Soviets shot down that Korean
airliner. And we were put on an alert. None of us knew nothing about the Korean airliner. But
that gotta [have] happened probably two days before we had our alert. So we’re going to the
�motorpool, all of the sudden we’re going a different direction than our usual where we would.
‘Where we going?’ ‘Fulda.’ ‘Where’s Fulda?’ ‘Fulda gap.’ That’s where the estimate the East
German army and the Russian army comin’ through. ‘Nawww.’ ‘Yeah.’ By the time we got there
we were the fourth battalion, they already had the armor ready to go. So they told us where we
were going, we set up. And you look where we’re setting up, you saw the gap. We had our M60
machine guns and our fifties ready. And ‘you’re telling me we’re going to war?’ ‘No we’re not.’
‘Yeah, we’re going to war.’ And… that was the first time I – while I was there, [that] it was scary.
I was scared. And we were out there for three days. And my old platoon sergeant that was a
Vietnam vet came up to us, he goes, ‘If we get overran, if I’m around I’m gonna make sure to
shoot you guys,’ cause he said ‘the communists get a hold of you guys,’ cause he’s remember,
from Vietnam, ‘it’s gonna be ugly.’ I don’t wanna be shot! But we were ready. Then, find out how
big of a cluster it was, these other battalions run into their point. Then there was accidents left
and right, left and right. And… but it never happened. We packed up, went back to where we
came from, unloaded, broke out the beer. Beer was the biggest band-aid, and there was a lot of
beer, there was a lot of drinking on your down time.
(39:17)
Interviewer: “Alright, now would you go off base or just stay on base?”
Off base, local guest houses.
Interviewer: “And how did the local Germans deal with the American soldiers?”
I was hoping you would ask me this. It was like [an] age divide. The older Germans, that I would
say was our parents’ ages when we were over there, they remembered American GIs, how well
the American GIs treated ‘em. They said … they were starving for food, GIs always had food.
[They] would give them the rations, they’re … and treated ‘em, even though they were Germans
they would treat ‘em fantastically. They had nothing but praises [for] the American GIs. And it
was the German… was our parents ages that we were what, say teenagers and younger. Then
the older Germans would ask us - you know, treat us like we were kings. We had a rally point,
was out in the boonies where we had – with our two trucks – it was at a farm, German farm. To
me a home farm. It was this old German and his wife, they had a deal, contract where we would
set up with the government – so they were used to Americans being there. They treated us like
kings, they would feed us. And we would give them cigarettes here and there, and his wife
always brought bread – fresh German bread. And he knew we couldn’t drink, but he was still –
smuggled us a couple bottles of schnapps. But still, he remembered the Americans. Americans.
And he hated communism. And the only ones that would not talk to us – and we figured, those
were the ones that were in the war - the soldiers. German soldiers. They stayed away from us,
and we discovered too, the older men would always wear long sleeves. No matter how hot it
was. And somebody told us once, they think they were SS. Cause the SS marked on arms, and
everybody else would run around with short sleeves.
�(41:57)
Interviewer: “What about the people your own age?”
The younger kids, the college kids. They wanted us out, cause of nuclear weapons. And we
were warned several times, careful in Frankfurt, might be a riot. And the younger kids by then,
they wanted us out. No more nukes, that was hot and heavy in the mid ‘80s. And you see the
protests, we got caught up in the protests in Frankfurt. There was four of us, and we were like…
scared, ‘what are we gonna do?’ And it was this shop owner, pulled us in his shop. He knew we
were Americans of course, with the haircuts. And we waited ‘til that protests went through, they
were burning American flags, screaming, yelling, we ended up having five more buddies down
the way got caught smack-dab in the center of that thing also, and they couldn’t get out. They
were running trying to get away from there, by then the Germans said, ‘These are American
soldiers,’ they pinned ‘em up against the walls and by then the Polizei were right there with their
German shepards, but we’re still in that shop. And to this day I still remember that shop owner,
we thanked him and thanked him and thanked him, and every time we went in Frankfurt we
made sure we’d stop off at that shop. Of all things, it was a toy store.
Interviewer: “Cause that’s somewhere where in the United States, when all that stuff was
going on, I mean the Korean airliner thing attracted a certain amount of attention but at
home it wasn’t really something where you really thought that that was gonna get you
into a war or whatever else, and of course you – while there was an anti-nuclear
movement of a sort that had been around, born really in the late ‘70s, you know, rioting,
things like that now – I mean maybe over building a nuclear powerplant someplace-“
Exactly.
Interviewer: “But yeah, it was just a different set of experiences there. Right.”
Growing up, what rioting I remember seeing on TV of course, was down south. With issues
down there, that’s where you saw the rioting – firemen with the fire hoses and all this.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and there were antiwar – the antiwar stuff that went on the late ‘60s,
early ‘70s too, but yeah, but for this whole other stuff going on in the ’80s, yeah it doesn’t
affect us here. Okay, now are there other things that went on when you were in Hanau
that kind of stand out in your memory from that tour?”
Flag burning. We had a rec room, we used to watch news. It was stars and stripes, and then it
was CNN news, they would have a partnership with CNN news. Bunch of us in the rec room
watching TV, it was late, they’re talking about flag burning. ‘Flag burning? … burn flags in the
US. What?’ Then they’re showing it. ‘The hell’s going on?’ Then they said it was okay to burn
flags, [the] American flag. ‘Nawww, no way’ If somebody would’ve told me, ‘yeah, they’re
burning flags in America,’ I wouldn’t have believed it ‘til I saw it on TV. And then AIDS, that’s
same time about the AIDS breakout. And I remember a lot us saying we’re not going home, I’m
�not going home, I mean what’s going on? Had the AIDS breakout, then ‘course the flag burning.
‘Course President Reagan, reassuring everybody everything’s gonna be fine. And we’re at
Grafenwoehr when the Challenger exploded. Watched that on TV. It was cold, and I walked into
the area, just got back from the range working on some tanks. Everybody’s gathered around the
TV, ‘what’s going on?’ ‘Space shuttle exploded.’ And we were just at awe at that. Still, all our
graphs, cause what news coverage we got wasn’t all that big – that was from the states.
(46:39)
Interviewer: “Now what was the time frame when you were in Germany for that tour?”
From 1981 to ’84.
Interviewer: “Okay. So I’m trying to think when the Challenger exploded I guess that was
’84, yeah. Okay, alright, so those things go on, then at this point now you’re running into
the end of your original enlistment. At what point do you – did you decide to reenlist
while you’re in Germany or?”
No. When I was at Fort Polk, Louisiana. I got orders to go to Fort Polk, but right before I left – I
would say a year before I left we started getting the M1 tanks. And the Army’s phasing out the
M60 tanks. And I got orders to go on M1 – deprocessing team. What we were doing was
receiving the brand new M1s, there was forty of us from all over Europe, got the orders. And the
Army’s phasing out the M60s. So we had to work on the M1s, get them ready for issue. Finish
working on what the plant didn’t finish putting on. And same thing, crash-course learning –
cause we didn’t go to school for M1s. And by then [the] M1 was all computerized. Very few
optics in the thing, all relied on circuit boards. I can say it now, cause all of this stuff is – I
probably wouldn’t even recognize a M1 tank today compared to what we had. So you know, we
were taught how to drive ‘em, fix ‘em, everything on these things. This went on for a year, and
so like I said we’re phasing everything out. Start seeing accidents with these things. Especially
wintertime, if anybody’s been to Grafenwoehr or Hohenfels, driving on a tank trail [in] wintertime,
a sixty-ton tank and ice [don’t] mix. I mean, just out of the blue the thing would take off on you.
You’re standing on the brake and you’re sliding, even though you’re not going that fast. Well …
takes over. Had one guy, slid so hard into a tree he died. And then we had a couple guys in the
motorpool, one got too close to another tank – and we had to line the tanks up front to back,
front to back, where you’re almost touching. Well one guy traversed so fast, he didn’t think
someone was on the outside and caught the guy between two tanks. And then you know, we
knew about war but they didn’t teach you on fatalities. Anything was… get everything cleaned
up, go back to work. Get drunk. And shake it off. So you know, we’re using a high pressure
hose to get rid of the blood and on the new tanks, still that battalion coming in for this new tanks,
… get these things out. And there was still a lot of accidents, people don’t realize, you know we
didn’t fire a shot over there, you know how many casualties [there] were over there just in the
‘80s alone? Covered all four US wars. Nobody knows about the casualties we had in peacetime.
We had explosions, vehicles overturning, vehicles in wrecks. Short rounds, guys getting hit by a
mortar that fell short. The last year I was in Germany, Grafenwoehr had an engineer battalion,
�combat engineer battalion working on landmines, how to set landmines – one exploded, killed
seven guys.
(51:45)
Interviewer: “Yeah. I mean sometimes news of military accidents comes through, but
usually it’s a helicopter crash or something like that.”
Very brief. But when there was a explosion in the turret of a tank, no one knows – compared to
today. And that sticks in my gull.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now we had gotten into this, so you spent the last year in Germany
on that tour, you’re now working with the Abrams tanks and so forth and you get orders
to go to Fort Polk.”
Fort Polk, Louisiana. I knew for sure I p’d off somebody to send me there. Who did I make mad?
I was running through my mind – must’ve been my first sergeant, ‘come to commander!’ Got
down there in Louisiana, drove down – it was July, hot. I mean now where I’m from Indiana, it
got hot, extremely hot, the humidity wise. Louisiana, completely different animal. Get a sign,
maintenance battalion, now when I left Germany I had a four-man room – still World War II
barracks. Get down at Fort Polk, open bay barracks.
Interviewer: “Now what rank were you at this point?”
Sergeant.
Interviewer: “Okay.”
So I got my little – MY room. The only ones who got the rooms were in Seals, still open bay
barracks. And being sergeant green, he you know, did all - what he had to do, get me signed in,
processed, and got my equipment. And he said, ‘you guys get jungle fatigues.’ Why? Cause we
were – we had to buy our BDUs, weren’t issued. And the BDUs at the time were heavy fatigues,
he goes, ‘Down here we wear Vietnam era jungle fatigues.’ Now I don’t know personally if
you’ve ever seen the fatigues – very light, very airy. Breathable, compared to what we had for
the BDUs.
(54:13)
Interviewer: “What does BDU stand for by the way, is that battle dress uniform?”
Correct. A woodland camouflage. So went to buy my jungle fatigues, they were olive green, and
put my camouflage uniforms away, and then the new guys are coming in from basic, same
thing. They’re buying jungle fatigues – we even had the jungle boots too. Look, I came from
Germany! And was issued a window fan and a mosquito net and I was like… I want Germany, I
�want Germany. And it was so hot down there, the Fort Polk day for armor and artillery, they
weren’t as big as in Germany. The whole time I was there, fifteen months there, I worked on one
tank. An old M60. You’re inside that turret and you’re sweating, sweating, I mean… hot. Now I
did get to work on optics you know, binoculars and some sights, but nothing like in Europe. Now
they didn’t have no M1s there, not yet. And this M60 had to be moved, so the platoon sergeant I
had then, he goes, ‘You’re from Germany aren’t you?’ ‘Yep.’ ‘You know how to drive a tank?’
‘Yeah I know how to drive a tank!’ ‘M60?’ ‘Yes!’ I showed him my driver’s license cause
everything, what vehicle you drive… I moved this dinosaur, and the last tank I moved then was
an M1. Now the M1 compared to the M60 – imagine you have a Volkswagen, all of a sudden
you got a BMW. That’s how the M1 was, everything. But down there in Fort Polk, best way to
describe it – just imagine somewhere in the country you see a bunch of people on a porch just
fanning themselves, Fort Polk – while I was there, I think we had two alerts. And the guys from
Germany and Korea, who went through alerts all the time, we got our stuff quickly. Now the
guys who were stationed in the states, alerts? They’re still him-hawing around, yelling,
screaming, ‘Where’s my backpack? Where’s my tent? Where’s this, where’s that?’ And you
learn, especially from Europe and Korea how to have everything you need in that rucksack,
everything. From extra pairs of socks, underwear, t-shirts, your sleeping bag, your tent,
everything. And there’s these guys, they’re going, ‘I can’t find that stuff, what’s up?’ Well us
guys from Germany and Korea, we’re already at the arms room, we’re ready. And these other
guys are just finally showing up. Waiting at the truck, I got assigned a truck. Waiting, waiting,
waiting, waiting, where is everybody? Cause you know in Germany, it’s ‘go, gotta go, gotta go.’
Lose the …. Finally they showed up, alert’s over with. So some other people said well, ‘how
come you have all this stuff, you’re carrying all that stuff?’ Man, you need it. And I taught ‘em.
‘Alright, this is called a tanker drill. This is what you put in your rucksack, and it stays 24/7, don’t
touch it.’ ‘Why? I wanna go camping?’ ‘Buy a tent then.’ And they couldn’t understand why you
needed everything, cause in Germany you needed everything. From your mess kit to… the
Army still used [a] two-man tent, one guy had one shelter half, [the other had] the other shelter
half. So everything, in Louisiana, trying to get these guys figured out. Except for the guys
coming in from overseas, we were ready. Then we were told, ‘Slow down.’ ‘Why?’ ‘We’ll never
see a chemical attack here, nuclear attack. We’ll never be deployed.’ Battalion commander,
when they had their incident at Grenada, he did everything to volunteer that battalion to go to
Grenada. And most of the Vietnam guys were laughing at them, ‘these fools are gonna get us
killed.’ I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that one movie with Clint Eastwood, Heartbreak Ridge?
(59:19)
Interviewer: “Yeah, mhm.”
How him and that battalion commander and the old first sergeant you know, how they talked.
That’s how it was. And I was still listening to the Vietnam vets, cause they still know what they’re
talking about, but the guys from Germany are like, ‘We’re in trouble,’ especially with how they’re
pushing chemical warfare, nuclear attack and all this. So then every Wednesday it was training
day – we gave classes, would give more or less a refresher of what you were taught from basic
and all this. And I’m telling the honest truth, I have the certificate to show you, and it was
�bugging me – nothing on chemical warfare. So they encouraged you to give a class. That’s part
of your job. So I said I’ll do a chemical warfare [class], how to decontaminate. They’re like,
‘decontaminate?’ ‘Yes!’ How to decontaminate your vehicle in case you’re – for chemicals. So
my company commander said ‘Fine, write me up some index cards on the class.’ And the – our
chemical NBC NCO wasn’t too keen on chemical warfare, and with all his time spent at Fort
Polk – and like I said the training for that was… so I gave him a class, like I said that day, was
more or less like a round-table thing for classes, from CPR, weapons, common map-reading,
how to communicate on radio. Well mine was outside, and I had my truck – which was a 5-ton
truck. They did have decontamination bottles there, which was charged by CO2 canisters. I laid
out everything, and then everybody was going outside to my station. Had to introduce [myself]
to ‘em, who I was and what the class [was]. And my company commander says, ‘How do you
know so much about this?’ We were drilled, and drilled, and drilled, to the point [where we
could] do it in our sleep. So I was giving my class, everybody’s like, ‘okay, so you have to clean
it,’ you know, with this canister you had to soak, hose down inside the cabin of the truck,
everything you would imagine you would touch. From the outside, inside, if you’re hauling
troops, the backside. Went and [decontaminated] that truck. They’re saying, ‘Why? What if
you’re separated from [your] unit?’ You see a vehicle, and you’re trying to make it back to the
back. There’s a bunch of you, you see a vehicle that’s still working? You want to decontaminate
that, get you and your people back in the back. By then you’ll be decontaminated. I told them
how it had been done and how we were taught, and so this went on for all day, I think I probably
had eight classes that day. Battalion commander showed up, and he very suddenly shows up –
well there’s other units, he showed up to mine. So he wanted to know how I learned all this. I
said, ‘In Germany this is – we’re training on this 24/7, besides your weapon.’ And he goes – and
he was stationed in Germany, he remembers all the training. He says, ‘Stateside units are weak
on this.’ He said, ‘Well run me through your class.’ I ran through my class, and everything, him
and his aide and his first sergeants went through the class. It was over with, he said I gave a
very nice class and he said, ‘You should be proud of what you were taught.’ That was it, left.
Week later, all of the sudden we had a formation, battalion commander was there. And that’s
when I got the Army achievement medal for my NBC classes. Now, if it had been Germany it’d
have been another ‘oh god,’ there… and the funniest thing was listening to people say, ‘I can’t
drive his truck!’ Cause they didn’t know how to drive stick shift. You’re gonna learn, guarantee.
But they’re like, ‘will it save lives?’ They’re saying it will save your life. And so I got back to the
barracks feeling kind of proud of myself, and this sergeant … in front of me, and he said
‘Showoff.’ You know, and he’d been to Europe. But it was just funny how stateside units… and it
was getting’ time for reenlisting. And I liked [the] Army, I really did. I liked the structure.
Everybody in the military was your family, I don’t care who you were – I think you heard this
from other vets, when they get, use the term ‘brother,’ it’s true. With your best friend, you know
everything about him, he knows everything about you. You almost feel like you’re part of his
family, way he would talk about his family, vice versa. But at Fort Polk, soon as everything was
done, boom, get in your car, go. There weren’t that very many people to hang out, like there
was in Europe. These guys complained about how much they hated the Army, I’m like, ‘you got
it made here!’ There’s no alerts, you’re not in the field. Went to the field once at Fort Polk – and
nothing like Germany.
�(1:05:46)
It’s time to reenlist. ‘I’ll do it for another four years, what the hell.’ I’m having fun. By then, my
dad had lost the farm – that’s when farming was taken out. Nosedive. I didn’t wanna work in a
coal mine… The girl who I had high hopes [for], the reason why I went into the Army? Pffft,
forgot about her, long time ago. So I reenlisted. Reenlistment NCO said, ‘Alright, where you
want to be stationed at? Your dream sheet.’ First three places I chose the first time – Fort
Campbell, Fort Knox, and Hawaii. ‘Okay.’ So it’s Knox, Campbell, Hawaii. Waited around for
about two-three weeks, got orders. ‘Germany!’ ‘What happened to..’ ‘Well, those slots were
filled.’ ‘Germany!’ He goes, ‘Could be worse, [you could] go to Korea.]’ I heard too many horror
stories about Korea, no no no no. Then my thirty-day leave, and this time I knew what to expect.
Leave went by fine, fantastic, got on that airplane and got [to the] reception station in Frankfurt.
Same thing. So they said, ‘You’re gonna be assigned to the third infantry division.’ And I told
them ‘I’m not infantry. I’m maintenance!’ ‘No no no, they got tanks and artillery there.’ ‘Can I go
back to originally where I came from, 19th?’ They’re like, ‘No, no. Third infantry.’ So they came
down, picked me up, and then they told me the history of third infantry, Audie Murphy. Okay, it’s
cool. And got there, Wurzburg. Again, German barracks. Expected that, and so I expected
everything, what I went through the first time I was in Germany. So I said, ‘What shop am I
going to?’ Figured I’m going to a shop. ‘You’re not going to a shop, you’ve been assigned to a
armor brigade.’ And that was the death knell, cause guys in armor brigade, their maintenance
people, when the tanks moved, they moved. And they didn’t work out a nice, clean, sterile shop.
They worked out of a van the size of a moving van. Said ‘this can’t be too bad,’ so I got there,
platoon sergeant’s explaining everything, this is what my duties were – and we had … which
was the computer to [run] tests on the computers on the tanks. Would tell you what was wrong,
mostly circuit card, diode, all this. You won’t see no optics, I guarantee it. ‘It’s you and this one
guy.’ Okay, fine, no problem. And this guy was like, ‘Oh, welcome, da-da-da,’ he was my
roommate. We had nothing to do for about a month! Next thing I know, I’m busting track on a
tank – which was not my job. They needed help, and they came to the truck, ‘you doing
anything today?’ ‘Nope.’ ‘Yeah, you are.’
(1:09:37)
Interviewer: “Mhm.”
‘You ever bust track before?’ ‘No. I drove tanks before.’ Ended up, for that whole month, they
were reshoeing the M1s, busting track. Didn’t get to work inside the turret hardly.
Interviewer: “Alright, you had no experiences with that at all?”
No experience. Learn as you go. And so all the sudden, the recovery driver, which drives the
M88 recovery vehicle, he was getting out. No one really – they had a hard time finding a
replacement for him, and they looked at [me], and they said, ‘You’re a pretty big guy, you like
heavy equipment?’ ‘It don’t bother me.’ And one of them said, ‘You’re a farm boy, aren’t you.’
‘Yeah, no problem.’ ‘You’re our new recovery operator.’ Never recovered anything before in my
�whole life, this thing is big enough, flip over a truck without even breaking a sweat, small APC,
they usually use it to pull engine packs out of tanks. Learn as you go, never went to recovery
school. But again, when the tanks moved, that thing moved. They would get stuck in the mud,
we had to hook up to ‘em, try to pull them out. Wading through the mud, you’re muddy. In the
process I ran across a friend of mine who was still at 19th maintenance. And there we were
always proud of our uniforms, everything was always starched. Boots, spit-shined. Ran across
him, saw his uniform was [the] same rank, he said ‘You look like a ragamuffin!’ ‘I don’t have
time! We don’t do looking pretty no more!’ Boots and mud, and when you’re at Grafenwoehr and
Hohenfels I hope you run into a veteran, you’ll find mud [where] you never thought you could
find mud. Summertime, dust. This real fine dust powder. And so again, you never dreamt
[where] you could find dust, and the mud. But my friend’s like ‘Yeah, I’m still in the same truck
we used to have back then!’ That truck, you could eat off the floor cause everything had to be
clean. I said, ‘Well have you been working on the M1s?’ ‘Not much! What do you do on them?’
So I told him, ‘Well, in my unit you bust track, you help ‘em pull engine packs out.’ Course you’re
working a turret, are you pulling a turret out or replacing a gun barrel?’ He goes, ‘we weren’t
taught that in school.’ ‘I know, nothing.’ But they – you did everything when it came to the armor.
Also I think for the artillery. And, ‘Can you replace the barrel in an M1?’ ‘Yeah.’ Takes two guys.
‘Can you do this on it?’ ‘Yep.’ ‘Can you pull that motor by yourself?’ ‘Yup.’ Still takes two guys.
When we first started processing the M1s in [the] mid ‘80s, they discovered everything was in
metric. And we had nothing but U.S. standard toolboxes. Now these are coming in from the
states, metric. We couldn’t pull – everybody had their own certain job with a brand new tank,
mine was to climb underneath there, drop these two plates, look for serial numbers. Couldn’t
drop ‘em. They were 17mm, was there a 17mm in Germany that the Army issued?
Interviewer: “Nope.”
They had to go [an] auto parts store, German auto parts store, get a 17mm socket. That thing
could’ve stopped if we would’ve had a war… it was the funniest thing I’ve ever seen, 17mm.
(1:14:00)
Interviewer: “Alright, okay. So you do this second tour, you join this armor brigade and
you’re doing all these different kinds of things, and so what else kind of stands out about
that tour for you?”
How they would take people out of their MOSs and teach ‘em to do other jobs. We were so
short-handed when we went to the range, desperately hurting for people. And I told [my] platoon
sergeant, I said, ‘look, I need another person to-‘ My roommates then, Mark and I, we had this
one tank [that] was giving us fits. Electronics. Need somebody to help us, you know, run to the
truck, run the part on …, while one person is still in the turret. But we needed a person, once
that part was fixed, run that part – or that piece of equipment to the person in the turret. Losing
time! ‘I’ll get you somebody.’ They pulled a company clerk, a PSC. Not his job, never been in
the field before. He’s just standing there, never been in mud. But that’s how it was, they pull
somebody, and by the time I left – even though I’ve never been to gunnery, the tanker showed
�me. Cause we had – what they were having problems with [was] fixing their sights. So we had
to work on that. Then all of the sudden once you finish working on it at the range, they’re lobbing
‘em downrange. And you learn. I was on another deprocessing team for the second time
around, and these were the new M1s coming out – there’s M1, [and] M1A1. Same thing, but this
time we were at the ranges with these new tanks. And I didn’t see my company, my original –
that armor brigade for a year. And back doing the same thing, but this time I had more
experience cause there was some times we had to replace track. ‘Ooh, I know how to do that!’
Learnt that from them. And then when they came with the new M1A1, they were having
problems with the hydraulic system. … put the wrong hydraulic fluid in the turret, and they put
original hydraulic fluid instead of organic. And original was eating the O-rings worse than… you
know, these are sixty million dollar tanks – and ready to be issued. But what really – I mean
there’s one thing I did forget to tell you about, I don’t know if you remember when the Marines
were bombed in Lebanon? We had an alert for that. And had to go get the M88, drive it down to
post, put it at post, we already had the thing staggered and everybody was flipping out you
know, ‘we’re gonna get bombed, we’re gonna get bombed,’ and they’re trying to reassure us,
‘no, we’re fine, we’re fine.’ At the same time, we’re starting to deal with terrorists. In the ‘80s, in
Germany. They blew up that nightclub, that killed Americans. And then also there was a
bombing in Frankfurt, airport, at Rhein-Main. And then when Reagan – President Reagan
visited Libya over the bombing at the nightclub, and that really put everybody on edge. And they
were saying, ‘Anybody who has a personal vehicle, this is what you need to look for, especially
parked on the streets. Look at your gas cap filter – make sure the door’s closed, open it up, look
at your gas cap. Make sure your doors are shut, none of them are ajar.’ And so everybody’s
getting really paranoid, driving to the main gate, the MPs are out there with their metal detectors
and the mirrors, looking underneath the vehicle. And my roomie and I went to Heidelberg just for
fun, and.. walking back to his car, and all the sudden he noticed the passenger door. ‘Did you
shut the door?’ ‘Yeah I shut it.’ ‘Was it ajar?’ ‘(‘I don’t know’ noise) Well I didn’t shut it all the
way.’ But he was so paranoid, ‘You were sitting in that seat, not me!’ God, and that was the
thing we were paranoid [about]. The terrorists. Plus the Soviets. And then the bombing at Beirut,
we never thought of stuff like [that]. Then all the sudden the busses that we had on post, regular
school busses – they had metal over the windows – mesh.
(1:19:45)
Interviewer: “Like being back in Vietnam.”
It’s like what the… But we were still laid-back though, once we convoyed through the cities, the
smaller towns – get to either Hohenfels, Grafenwoehr, and we still had to stop in these small
cities. Had to stay by your truck, Germans would walk up to us – nothing like today, worry about
suicide vests. Or somebody mucking around with your fuel tank like they did in Vietnam, would
do the grenades with the tape where the fuel would loosen up the tape on the handles on the
grenades, and off they went. Germany, the Germans come up to us and offer us coffee –
especially if there’s a deli, the deli owner would come out with brotchens, and lunch meat –
ham. Feed us! Left and right, nothing like it is today. There was always, would be somebody by
the vehicle with – but our weapons were usually in the cab of the truck, were never loaded
�anyway but… so it was always fun driving through these little towns because the Germans
would look at your vehicle and stuff, they’d snoop around. They’d tell me how when I used to
drive the 88 going through the towns, cobblestone streets – you know, this is a eighty-ton
vehicle, and you know, [they’d] tell me how many years they’d been seeing American tanks run
through here and all this. But very nice people. But it’s a shame today’s troops can’t do that like
I said, going through Afghanistan.
Interviewer: “Yeah, very different thing.”
Different animal. And the troops in Vietnam, they were on their feet. If they stopped off at a little
village or what there is of a town, they had to worry about the guerillas there, sabotaging.
Interviewer: “If we can kind of steer back here toward your second tour – cause we’ve
kind of gone and you’ve had kind of a flashback into the first tour and that kind of thing
and that’s a good thing to have filled in, alright. So are there other main duties that you
had or other things you did in Germany in that second tour beyond what you’ve talked
about here?”
(1:22:16)
Well once I became an NCO – full time babysitter, which.. when I was a private, when an NCO
told you to do something - from a Vietnam vet - NCOs we had, they said something, we’d listen
to ‘em. Once they started to leave, there [were] very few Vietnam veterans still in the service. So
a lot of those guys [who’ve] been in for a while, we remember what they taught us. Especially
even though it was Germany, what to expect in a firefight. How to set up the claymore
landmines, they were – or how to shoot your 203 grenade launcher. If you were an M60 crew or
M50 crew, they were – they drilled that in, this is how you’re… your line of fire, everything. What
they – but it was still taught to us. Then when it came – like I said earlier, they were old school.
When it came time for room inspections they would flip out. I mean, god forbid they see a dust
bunny floating underneath your bed. But it was still drilled into us, the new guys coming along. I
mean, I feel bad now because I used to call some of the old Vietnam vets that I got along with
‘Pops, Grandpa,’ just wait, just wait, you know. And you knew the ones who you could monkey
with and you knew the ones – especially once they’re drunk, no - leave them alone. Now, I was
becoming an …, became a squad leader. I had kids under me. So I, you know, we had the room
inspections. Keep your equipment [in] excellent shape, make sure everything worked. Make
sure you had everything, especially when it came to the backpack like I told you about, Fort
Polk. ‘I can’t find this, I can’t find that,’ but we also helped out the ones that were lagging behind,
that’s what the Vietnam vets taught us. You don’t leave nobody. No matter what. So even
though you went through something a thousand times that day with a certain person, you’re still
helping ‘em. And so we – even out in the field we always had two canteens with us, with our
gear. You have water in your canteen. It’s one of the things they’re always preaching, do you –
make sure you have water. Then it got to the point, these new guys – the new privates. We’re
getting after them, and… but then [in] the back of your head you’re still hearing the older guys,
and… like I said, with then, with the older Vietnam guys – lipped off to one of ‘em, he might not
�do nothin’ in front of you, minute you cross that corner he’s got you. And he would drill, ‘you
don’t lip off, you listen.’ Cause you didn’t listen, you got so-and-so killed. … something sneak in.
Nighttime, out in the thing, perimeter, these guys would wig out over the perimeter. When we
had to string up Concertina wire in our area – this is when we were still having C-rations in cans.
‘What’s all this for?’ And when it’s time [for] posting guards, ‘don’t go to sleep, don’t go to sleep,’
even though it was Germany! And sometimes I think they were reliving their experience.
Interviewer: “Probably were.”
(1:26:39)
And.. but still, the training. You gotta make sure you look out for your men, cover your men, and
– like I said, then toward the end, lot of ‘em were gone. But then I guess you could say the new
generation, we inherited their ball. And it was an honor, really.
Interviewer: “So we were kind of talking about, kind of the later stages of your military
career and your time in Germany, the point where you’ve kind of become the old guy, the
Vietnam generation has gone out. How do you characterize the kinds of people who were
joining the Army and coming in after you, in terms of their backgrounds or aptitudes or..”
The people, [who] I went in with, from basic to probably about middle-time, we were all the
same age group. In basic training [you] might as well figure you had your eighteen-year-olds
and your nineteen-year-olds, maybe a couple seventeen-year-olds sprinkled in. I still remember
we had twenty-year-olds and a couple Vietnam guys came back in, and so we were – except for
some of the twenty-year-olds, us – the younger guys, we’re all still in the same mindset. High
school, that big football game, that big pass that you caught and all this, or dating a cheerleader,
or ‘my car is this fast,’ and all that. And there are small-town guys, still hung out together, you
know. Still the same mindset. And even in Germany everybody was still almost in the same age
group. You know, you were stationed with people from different parts of the US, and – but still
the same mind group, except for what - the training. We were starting to take things a little more
seriously, and I guess you could say it’s more or less going through college: freshman year,
you’re green, you’re running around banging your head on ‘which direction do I go, what am I
doing, what did I do.’ By the time your sophomore year, ‘okay, I know not to hit that wall no
more, cause it’s gonna hurt.’ But you’re listening more to instruction. Following the direction.
Now by then the older kids – I would say the Vietnam vets, for me, were starting to.. ‘okay, this
guy’s alright.’ They will lead you through that – to get you going in the right direction, but they’re
not gonna hold your hand all the way, they’re gonna let you fall. Same thing for college. By the
time you hit your junior year, if you haven’t figured out what you’re gonna do or get your
assignments on, you’re gonna fall. Well, in the Army, after… for me, I think the sixth year I knew
where I was heading in the Army. Toward training, toward leading troops. It was all because that
senior grabbed me by the neck, ‘it’s gotta be done this way,’ and his thing – I remember one of
the Vets told me, ‘The Army’s been doing this for 150 years, they’re not going to change
because you think it’s a better idea. Forget it.’ And once I got my five and I was, like I said, put
into a squad leader position, then the ones that I was with – they were gone, out of the Army.
�Same age group, they did their four years, three years, two years, they were gone. By the time I
was twenty-six, I was considered the old guy – except for my senior NCOs. Then, I’m dealing
with eighteen-year-olds, nineteen-year-olds. And trying to teach them what I was taught – by
then the Army was changing their ways, where discipline-wise, wasn’t as harsh.
(1:31:31)
Interviewer: “Okay.”
And so… you’d sit there and talk ‘em through more stuff, hold ‘em through more stuff. And I still
remember a smart-aleck kid, I was climbing out of the turret of a tank and so help me, every
bone in my body cracked, cause I twisted a certain way - goes, ‘Man, you’re old!’ I’m only
twenty-six! ‘You’re an old man!’ When he said that from that day – like you know … came
through PT, doing.. trying to prove I can still do more things than he can do. I can still take that
ball and run, later that day, once I got back to the barracks, ‘Oh my god, I’m gonna die, shoot
me now!’ These guys were (breathing heavily) ‘til it dawned on me and my roomie, we were
talking – we were like that too, young and stupid. And.. but it was a different era, came in. We
had suicide problems. Young guy, with sticks in my head… young kid, he was from Iowa, I won’t
say his name – and we used to call him ‘Opie,’ had a girlfriend, he was the high school
quarterback, by then the Army was teaching us to get more involved in your soldiers’ [lives].
Leave your door open, if you have a problem, talk to ‘em. Now this was getting away from
working on tanks and running through the woods in Germany and all that, so... had this kid, and
[he] got a Dear John letter – got used to getting Dear John letter[s], get the guy drunk as you
can or take him to Frankfurt. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Frankfurt – at the time there was
a red light district. You know, everybody always paid out of their own pocket to make this kid
happy again, and we did everything with this kid. And the girlfriend, Dear John letter, and I
guess they’d been together for god knows how many years. And one day he walked in the
motorpool, and he hung himself. I didn’t see him do it – actually, nobody did. Then one day
somebody was walking through the motorpool, MPs were showing up, ambulance and first
sarge grabbed me, and let me know what’s happening, he’s growling at me. ‘What happened
with this kid?’ And I’m like, ‘I don’t know!’ ‘Why did he hang himself?’ I didn’t know. And my door
was open, but it was the way I was taught – you had a problem, you worked it out. And… I let
that one slip through my fingers, not knowing. And took that one hard, and first sarge had been
a Vietnam vet, 2nd 11 Cavalry. He said, ‘You know, this hurts worse than having one get shot.’
And so, still had [an] open-door policy but I wanted to walk up to you if you had a letter from
your family, ‘lemme read it!’ And ‘specially if you had got a Dear John I doubt… if you let me
read it. Of course we did give the big brother advice, if somebody did get a Dear John, ‘oh, to
heck with that girl, you can do better, let’s get drunk.’ And you know, try to make ‘em feel better.
(1:36:05)
Interviewer: “Alright, now were there any women coming into your unit yet, or?”
�We had women in our unit, the first time no women. Second time, that’s when the Army – we
started having segregated barracks. And that was – I’ve personally, myself, never been in
college – but I can image what college dorm room life was like. With females. They still couldn’t
work on the tanks, the armor – but they mostly were for supply, paperwork, administration. And
couple of ‘em did small arm repairs, and they’d beg and plead, ‘can we go out there on the
tanks?’ ‘No, no, no, you can’t, you’re a girl.’
Interviewer: “Mhm.”
Well that’s the worst thing to someone who’s hellbent on… okay, got permission from platoon
sergeant, had her come out there and help us. Small girl, figured after a couple days lifting all
these components out, then all of a sudden she could get in these areas where us big guys
were struggling to get in. She loved it! Every minute of it. And we had a howitzer that needed
the fuel cells replaced – diesel fuel cells, they’re bladders. Not ever worked on the artillery
pieces ‘cept for the sights. One of the guys says, ‘Do you think you she could climb into that fuel
cell and start pulling it out?’ Everybody else was too big. ‘Okay fine, no problem.’ She got into
that thing, started busting her butt – we nicknamed her Mouse. She – everybody was in, the big
guys were in love cause she could squirrel through that thing, and she was puttin’ some of the
regular guys to shame. And.. but she loved it. And when she reenlisted, she reenlisted to be a
mechanic. And.. but to this day they still don’t let women go into artillery brigades, or tank
brigades. But the two I saw, oh yeah they’ve been great. I saw female truck drivers, could wheel
around some of those deuce and a halfs - deuce and a halfs didn’t have power steering, these
are still the manual steering. I don’t know if you’ve ever drove a manual steering vehicle, you
know, lifts you out of your seat when you try and turn. Some of these women I saw were
palming the steering wheel like it’s… ‘Okay sister!’ And they could hold their own, but still having
a barracks of women, that was really weird. Extremely weird, couldn’t get used to it at first. But
like I said, then it [became] college dorm life. It was fun.
Interviewer: “Okay. So you kind of adapted to that, so it wasn’t a great morale problem to
have the women there or?”
(1:39:29)
No! Still had some hardcore NCOs – female and males, they didn’t like it. And the younger
guys, oh it was paradise to them. I mean, so... guys are sneaking down to their floors, girls were
– my roommate was notorious, [would] always bring a girl in the room. I would wake up and see
a toe from underneath the blanket, ‘alright that’s not his toe.’ Cause he better not be wearing red
nail polish! But you know, just blew it off. Our, when new girls would show up at the barracks
that had been assigned to us, I think every window of the barracks was open and these guys
were like, ‘that’s gonna be mine, guarantee it.’ So yeah.
Interviewer: “Do you know if there were problems with harassment or guys pushing
things too far?”
�If there was, it was taken care of in the barracks – it was nothing like that big Navy scandal in
the ‘80s – Tailhook, I think.
Interviewer: “Tailhook, yeah.”
No, there was – I mean, if somebody did cross a line either they stayed away from each other
very well… being an NCO I never heard nothing, nothing like it was with the drug issue. But
usually you would call the – that’s what I was just telling Cody, my neighbor that brought me. A
military romance, after a couple weeks, move on.
Interviewer: “Alright, now were drugs an issue in the Army in the ‘80s?”
Yeah. Everybody would leave Frankfurt, go to Amsterdam – hash. And cocaine was starting to
make a big deal. Somebody would bring back pot and they would get laughed at, ‘why I got
hash here! Why would I want to smoke pot?’ ‘Course drinking was a big issue. Still had your
annual urine test, and then couple days later all the sudden MPs [would] be lying down in front
of the barracks, calling names, or they would bring the dogs in. And guys would, had brilliant
ideals on throwing the scent off on the dogs, they swore up and down, black pepper and all this.
But once the dogs came in, searched your room, and – but like I said, the urine tests – but yeah,
drugs were a problem.
Interviewer: “And did you see occasions where it sort of affected anybody’s job
performance? Or was this really kind of an off-duty issue?”
Off-duty issue. We had one guy, flipped out – turned out he was doing coke. And flipped out in
the motorpool, somebody was doing something and flat-out caused him to flip out. But in the
‘70s, I think, since you’ve been doing Vietnam vets, drug problems, very bad. So the military
kind of got a handle on it – what to look for. I don’t know if any of your Vietnam vets told you
about – with their NBC mask, their carrier. They used to have a EpiPen with them. And the
EpiPen was speed that you would jab in your leg, if you had a chemical attack. So they were
using their Vietnam – that EpiPen left and right, left and right. Well the military decided to take
that EpiPen out, so by the time the ‘80s rolled around, we still had the same gas masks and all,
no EpiPen. Cause the Vietnam guys would get stoned off the thing. Being speed. And… but
then they got really hot and heavy with the drug testing stuff.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were there racial issues at all in the ‘80s?”
(1:44:00)
No. As you and I talked earlier about my southern drawl, when it does come out – basic training,
where I’m from back home there was no African-Americans, no Hispanics, no Asians – all-white
community. For high school football, we played this one – our first all-Black football team. We
didn’t know what to do. And coach was getting after us, ‘They’re people! Hit ‘em! They’ll hit you
back!’ And all that stuff. And man, these guys could run. Could never catch ‘em. We got our
�butts handed to us. First time experience with African-Americans. Now, growing up, TV, you
saw the protests with the fire hoses and all that. That was left at that, we go into other towns
that had African-Americans, you looked at ‘em, all this. And you hear the violence on TV. Well,
basic training starts. We had a mixture of… couple Asians, lot of Cubans that – their families
escaped. And the boat people.
Interviewer: “Right.”
‘Course, African-Americans. So [I was] assigned this bunk, guy sittin’ above me, and his name
is Roro, black – a black man. Blackest man I’ve seen! He had his shoes and socks off, he’s
sitting above me and his feet… and I just couldn’t keep from staring, and I kept staring. And
staring, and finally he looked over his bunk – ‘Never been around a black man before, have
you?’ And I’m like, ‘oh yeah, yeah.’ ‘What you staring at my feet for then?’ And the bottom of his
feet was the whitest, as white I’ve ever seen my whole life. First words out of his mouth, ‘you’re
a hayseed.’ ‘What?’ So he broke down hayseed – okay, and we became good friends during
basic. And yeah, we had problems – we had the boys from the South, there was a couple fights
in the barracks. And it got nipped in the bud real quick, and you right away knew who was racist.
White and black. So basic went through, there was no major shooting, behind doors, yeah you
heard the N-word quite a bit, from both sides. And I could never understand why a black man
would call another black man the N-word. But I asked ‘em, ‘Why can you do that and I can’t?’
They’re like, ‘well you just can’t.’ ‘Why?’ I never got a definite answer. So I made it through basic
training, AIT, same thing, everything smooth as silk. Then when I got assigned to 19th
Maintenance, I had a four-man room. By then they were starting to segregate the rooms, white
and black, white and black, white and black. No more all white, no more all-black.
Interviewer: “So they’re de-segregating the rooms then.”
(1:47:42)
Exactly, thank you, de-segregating. And so this corporal took me to my room, he goes, ‘Good
luck with your roommates,’ and he opened the door, guys were sitting there, all three of ‘em
were black. One of ‘em said, first word, ‘hell no!’ And I… oh my lord, I’m… so got in there,
introduced myself, they introduced themselves. Two of ‘em [were] from Detroit. That one was
from Los Angeles. And got settled in and all that, these guys made me feel comfortable. And
after a week or so, once we really got to know each other, just imagine being stationed, or in a
room with two Eddie Murphys and a Chris Rock. Cracking jokes all the time, everything. There
[was] more laughing and giggling in that room, and these guys – especially the two from Detroit,
and finally they’re calling each other the N-word – they looked at me, ‘long as this stays in this
room, you can say it.’ I was like, ‘what?’ Well, okay… well then it was… everybody was the N.
Now once we left that room, go to the mess hall… and then other black guys would show up
into the room and the N-word was floating around, and I finally said it – well these other black
guys – “Ohhhhh, well here we go.’ They’re like man, ‘that’s not cool, that’s not cool.’ So… but
yeah, the guys from the South still – you could tell the ones that walk around with a big belt
buckle and the stars and bars and everything. Now the thing in Germany, everybody bought
�stereos. The biggest stereo you… I bought one. Now I’ve always loved country music, well
actually, a variety of music. And I bought this Lynyrd Skynyrd decal, and it was stars and barsstyle. But instead of stars it said “Lynyrd Skynyrd.” Well then the… Lewis, that’s the one from
L.A. – he could’ve been a diehard Malcolm X. There was days he would flip flop. Walked into
the room, he [was] playing my stereo – we had to have headphones – he’s just sitting there
listening. Walked over to see what he was playing on the turntable, a Willie Nelson song. Goes,
‘This is pretty cool!’ (laughter) And you know, back in the ‘80s all the rhythm and blues are
African-American groups, you know, you had Peaches and Herb and… then they got me
listening to music, and Gladys Knight. And Aretha Franklin, the Commodores, and Stevie
Wonder, so the music thing, you know, by the time I left, the first time? My variety of music,
instead of country, was [expanded]. But those three guys made my first tour in Germany great.
And before – if I would not [have] gone into the military, if I would’ve seen three black men… I
would’ve steered away. Honestly. But these guys – like I said, they’re the ones that, when they
told me about life in Detroit, [at] first I thought they were yanking my chain. Since I’ve lived here
in Michigan I was like, ‘Wow, that was rough.’ That was almost a war zone itself. But… and then
Los Angeles, Lewis – that’s happened right at the time of the riots in L.A.—
Interviewer: “Yeah, the whole Rodney King thing and—”
(1:52:34)
Exactly. And ‘course that was covered on AFN – Armed Force Network. And you could see the
gears in his head just turning, and… I got concerned, cause right away he said, ‘See how you
F’n white people are?’ And I’m like, ‘Not everybody’s like that.’ ‘Aw, bullshit.’ And then that’s
when the Malcolm X side, slash… the one gentleman who wears the bow tie, Farrakhan.
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
That side came out. So we got into a discussion about it and all this, and by then the other two
guys came into the room, and they heard him just going off and all this about whites. The other
two guys yelled at him, and that’s when the N-word… go outside, play on the Autobahn, we
don’t care. That’s over there. And ‘course I wanted to stand up and say the same thing, and you
know… ‘Keep your mouth shut Dave, keep your mouth shut,’ but the other two guys… so he got
mad and he took it out of the room, probably went to the club. Those guys [were] saying yeah,
‘People from New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles, [they’re] different.’ And… but that’s, that
was the hesitation. You heard behind the doors, ‘Oh, you’re after me, you’re out for me!’ But no,
no… then I had to be careful on how I talked, with that drawl. Picked my words very carefully.
And then I, when I got orders those guys were – the two guys were gonna head back to Detroit,
work at the plants. They had family working at the plants. One was Ford, one was Chevrolet.
Now with Lewis, I know he was heading back to Los Angeles, I don’t know what his plan was. I
had orders to go back to Louisiana, and… Louisiana, where I was stationed there was more
whites than anything. Now we did have the African-Americans from Louisiana tripping people
[out], believed in voodoo. They’d touch that little bag around their neck. But racism was bad in
Louisiana, they were still burning crosses. You didn’t really wanna get caught if you walked
�downtown Leesville, that’s just outside of Polk – walk with a black guy, they look at you and you
feel the hair on the back of your neck, and so it was… and I fooled around – this is way before I
met my wife – starting dating a girl in our company, and she was black. She was from Jackson,
Mississippi. It was good times, very good times. Her dad, mom, fantastic people in Jackson.
They welcomed me into their home, they were drilling me, where I’m from. All this, and… they
were very open-minded. Now her brother, on the other hand, [thought] ‘what was I doing in their
house?’ Oh they used to get after him for one into another. And so this girl I was dating, things
were getting pretty hot and heavy, and the thought of reenlisting wasn’t going to happen. ‘Nope,
I’m with this girl.’ Well by then her enlistment was coming up, but she wanted to go back to
Jackson. Well then that reenlistment NCO put a bug in my ear, and that’s when also, he
guaranteed Fort Knox or Fort Campbell. Well I could finish my career [in the] military close to
home. So this woman and I, or girl, talked about it, nope, she’s getting out. She wanted me to
get out with her. And I was going to, then like I said, reenlistment NCO – and then too, the Army
was throwing money at you too. Okay, wow. She got mad when I raised my right hand. So,
that’s when I got orders. I knew for sure, Evans… you know, in that general area - Germany.
(1:57:51)
Interviewer: “Yeah, alright. Now Germany then, you’re kind of coming to the end of the
reenlistment period. And at this point are you ready to get out?”
I was… I was looking [forward to] becoming staff sergeant. All the sudden, there was a point
freeze. And there was a freeze, they said it’s going to be a long freeze. And so I wanted to be a
staff sergeant. Did everything possible [to] get my points up but still, there was that freeze. And
so then they started plucking through the ranks, to be warrant officer. And actually my first
platoon sergeant – he was a staff sergeant, very first one I ever had in Germany. He became a
warrant officer. And he was talking to my roommate and I, he said there’s one slot open. He
said, ‘I want you two to become warrant officers, forget about being staff sergeant.’ Mark and I,
my roommate – like I said, we’re laughing and giggling about it, and I figure, ‘Aw heck, he’s not
going to be [a] warrant officer,’ cause by then he was becoming anti-Army. Anti-government,
everything. Alright. So [without] even pursuing it anymore I figure it’s gonna be a shoo-in. And
so my warrant officer, he’s chief warrant officer three. ‘Still serious about being a warrant
officer?’ ‘Oh yeah, I’ll do it, I’ll do it.’ ‘They’ll send you back to Aberdeen for warrant officer
school,’ dadadada. ‘Okay.’ I left it at that. Week later my roomie was acting really weird, the
conversation of warrant officer wasn’t brought up no more and I still didn’t think… he came out,
he said, ‘I’m going to be a warrant officer.’ ‘What?’ ‘I want to take that position.’ ‘What the—’ You
know, we’re both the same rank, had the same points, I said, ‘You? You’re anti-government,
you hate the Army, everything!’ ‘Nope, I want to take it.’ ‘Aw,’ just… by then, just imagine, you
know the sound a semi makes when it’s locking up its tires? So saw [the] warrant officer, chief,
went ahead and I said, ‘You got that position?’ Then he looked me dead in the eye, ‘You want to
be a warrant officer?’ ‘Yes!’ ‘Well why didn’t you say something?’ Well I said, ‘You said to Mark
and I…’ He said, ‘Yeah,’ So I said, ‘Well,’ and I told him, ‘I figure Mark wouldn’t want the position
and it [was going to be] easy walking.’ He goes, ‘I waited for you to say something but your
roommate said [he wanted it.]’ And this is the guy who hated the Army, every time we had an
�alert— (unhappy noises) Hated rules and regulations, and he took it. And so then being a
professional babysitter, I was starting to get frustrated, because when you’re telling a grown
man – and this is when we still polished our boots. ‘Dude, you gotta put polish on those boots.’
They expect you to spit-shine your boots, put on a clean uniform. Make your bed. So, that’s
when the old-school discipline, by a couple years, out the window. You’re writing up action
reports. And I’m writing up this guy left and right, spending time in my room, writing him up and
explaining to him, trying to tell him… still. And it wasn’t [just] him, it was a couple of guys. When
we got called out on alerts, first thing I always say – make sure you’ve got water in your
canteens. Well we’d get where we had to go, all of a sudden one of them’s crying, ‘I don’t have
water.’ ‘Why don’t you have water?’ ‘I forgot.’ Still I’m dealing with this guy that didn’t want – you
know, his room was always a mess. That’s one thing they still flipped out, out in the military –
they want polished floors, nicely-made rooms. And it was getting old. Then he pulled a stunt on
me – when I went to the first sergeant, first went to the platoon sergeant then the first sergeant.
‘Discipline him, discipline him.’ Their version of discipline was talk, not physical. He pulled a
stunt where after chow was over with, we were heading for formation, started complaining – ‘I
didn’t eat.’ ‘Why didn’t you eat?’ ‘Didn’t have time to eat.’ ‘What were you doing?’ Gave me this
big him-haw story, I said, ‘You know, there’s that snack bar going toward the motorpool.’ ‘Are
you refusing me to eat?’ ‘There’s the snack bar.’ And I left it at that. Someone else said, ‘There’s
a snack bar on the way.’ They served hot dogs and chips and pastries. Later that day, he went
to Chaplin, told Chaplin I refused to let him eat. He said, ‘He denied me – where I couldn’t eat at
the mess hall, said I couldn’t.’ Well, then Chaplin listened to his story, got a hold of my first
sergeant. First sarge is like.. by then, battalion commander found out, sergeant major found out.
I got a phone call to go battalion, and my platoon sergeant was there, company commander
there, and my first sergeant. ‘Why are you denying so-and-so to eat?’ I’d forgot all about [it.]
Then, I said, ‘We were marching to the motorpool – he told me he didn’t eat,’ I said, ‘there’s the
snack bar,’ we always stopped off at the snack bar. And no, mess hall was closing. And they
said, ‘Would he have had time to eat at the mess hall?’ ‘No,’ cause you marched out at that
time. And they said, ‘If he would’ve eaten, could he [have] caught you guys marching?’ I said,
‘No, we’d probably been at the motorpool by the time he caught us.’ Well, sergeant major was
just going off on me and my first sarge, like, ‘yeah yeah yeah yeah,’ my platoon sergeant…
didn’t ever getting after him and by then I was the last one. And I explained to these men that I
was having problems with this guy. Only thing to do to this guy before the mess hall incident
was court martial him, but that was out of my powers. I suggested it, have charges brought
against him – for unbecoming a soldier. Well by the time all this thing with the mess hall and all
this, I got written up. And… for not following through. But the reason why is how I was trained,
for… over the years. Cause the NCOs I had from over the years were the Vietnam vets, couldn’t
stop that war cause you didn’t eat.
(2:07:18)
Interviewer: “So is this moving you into a direction toward thinking it’s time to hang ‘em
up?’
�Yeah. Cause my best friend was becoming a skilled craft ink-pen, which is a government inkpen, and a Webster’s Dictionary. And plus you know, getting everybody in line, that’s why I use
the term heavily - babysitter. Well, I came home here to Michigan, my mother moved up here.
And so I came home to visit her, and my mother met this waitress. And so a couple years [later],
my mom was badgering me about this waitress. ‘You have to meet her!’ ‘Okay, whatever, just…’
So finally it was time to take leave, and the guys were going to gunnery, my roomie that got
accepted [to] warrant officer school, he was gone, so… and feeling kinda bummed out, kicking a
rock around, you could say. Still doing my duties. Then they stuck me in headquarters. And
usually when you start copping attitudes they stick you in headquarters. But the headquarters
was in charge of maintenance, so they stuck me upstairs. Then I got to wear my nice pressed
fatigues, and spit-shined boots, feeling pretty good. And they said, ‘This is going to be your job.
We want you to find parts.’ ‘What kind of parts?’ ‘Anything dealing from tanks, trucks, jeeps,
anything.’ Cause it was headquarters’ job to make sure all the parts came in, and make sure
everything got done at a certain time. Okay, fine. They put me at a desk, this lieutenant tossed
me [a] United States Army phone book, of Europe. ‘Start finding parts.’ ‘Okay, what the hell.’ So
my first duty station was Hanau, and actually it was also the Army junkyard of – every vehicle
you can think of that’s been destroyed some way or another, collision or… But they needed
truck parts. And called up Hanau maintenance, you know, explained to them what I need, ‘Well
you gotta try this Corps because they’re running the junkyard, call them,’ and all a sudden, ‘Yep,
we got those parts and all this.’ Went to the major that was running headquarters, told him,
‘Fine, how long’s it going to take you get down there? Sign out your deuce and a half.’ Gotta go
back to Hanau, which … completely direction. Got the parts, brought back, all a sudden, ‘Can
you find these parts?’ ‘Okay,’ called up. And it was nothing like … ‘I’ll trade you for … rows …’
cause believe it or not we had to pay for these parts. So then I knew about Mainz, Mainz was
the civilian repair. And I got to know them fairly well while I was in headquarters. So we had to
get parts from them, but we had to purchase the parts, even though it was going to U.S. military
equipment. So that was going back and forth, Hanau, then we dealt with German contractors. I
went to John Deere and I went to Volvo, carrying jacks and all these. And getting parts, that’s
how I finished out my last year. I never touched a M1, had people come up to me, ‘How do you
work— we got this problem, dadada,’ and they used to get mad at headquarters. I don’t know
how many times I tried to make a great escape to the motorpool. All the sudden I hear on the
window, cause headquarters [was] above the motorpool. I hear on the window, ‘Get back! Get
back!’’ So I’m at a game, they’re start— they’re purposely walking back, slow. ‘Get your truck,
we need these-‘ Okay. Then like I said it was becoming fine, cause also headquarters, when
we’re out in the field, that’s how they’d go to the different mess halls and check out the food
preparation so… the one lieutenant did so we went to the different mess halls out in the field,
you know, got to eat already, soups and pastries. Then we had to pick up fresh produce from a
German market. Which was fun, and then I seen a couple of guys again from – I worked with
during that whole eighty-eight I had, they’re looking so tired, I’m looking so nice and fresh— we
had showers, cause then when we had showers, if they brought out showers to you. Well in
headquarters where we stayed there were showers. Living it up, honestly. And I got a medal for
that job also, but getting back to my wife.
(2:13:10)
�My mom met my wife. And when I got home on leave, my mom handed me a piece of paper,
‘This is her phone number, don’t screw it up.’ ‘Alright.’ Well when you have a mother that’s
hellbent – she wants [a] daughter-in-law and a grandchild. My wife already had a daughter from
her previous guy, she was a little girl. So called up this – my wife, I said, ‘is Martha home?’ She
goes, ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘I’m Dave, I’m Sharon’s son. Would you like to go out on a date?’ So I’m
already figuring, I heard it in the conversation in my brain, ‘No that’s fine, that’s okay,’ and I
remember telling her, ‘Thanks’ you know, figuring, she goes, ‘Yeah, I’ll be glad to go out on a
date.’ Well by then my wife’s like, alright – her dating scene was zero, because she already had
a little girl. And my wife came from a very.. a Catholic, Hispanic family. So she’s already in hot
water because she had a child, but still, very strict Catholic and Hispanic. So I met my – then,
[I’d] say new girlfriend, and we went out on a date. Couple dates. It was third day on my leave, I
asked her to marry me. Where that came from… she looked me dead in the eye, she goes, ‘Are
you sure?’ ‘Yeah! I’m sure.’ She said yes. Now, what was I thinking? It just [slipped out.] ‘Okay!’
Went back to my mom, and my mom’s like, ‘Oh, great,’ cause she loved Martha already, which
is my wife’s name. And Martha’s daughter, Amanda, she was two at the time. So after I realized
what I did, okay. But like I said, we still dated while I was home on leave, and right away people
thought Martha and I were married cause of Amanda. And all the sudden those thirty days –
pew, gone. Head back to Germany. Then things just.. wouldn’t click, it did not feel right. And we
had a big inspection. So we still had to get all the guys together, get all their stuff together, make
sure things – the same routine over and over and over. Then I heard, ‘Can’t find my tent!’ ‘How
do you row this?’ ‘How do you pack this?’ ‘Why do we-‘ It was like, oh my god… in the process I
was thinking about then, my fiancée, and her daughter. This isn’t fun no more. Honestly. Time
[came] around to enlist. Eight years under my belt, twenty-seven years old. Still thinking of
Martha. And Amanda, cause when I was home with Amanda, the two-year-old, damn she was
fun! You could tell her to do something, she would do it! No question, or tell her find something?
‘I can’t find..’ God, this is fun! Like I said, people were already thinking we were married. Well I
was still staying at my mom’s house, there was no staying at Martha’s house – like I said, her
mom and dad, very Hispanic. ‘Better be a wedding ring on that finger before you stay in our
house.’ I mean, I’m getting out, so I called her up, ‘Martha,’ I said, ‘I’m getting out.’ ‘When?’
‘Well, I still have to talk to the reenlistment NCO,’ and they brought down the battalion
reenlistment NCO. ‘I’m getting out.’ ‘Why, you got a career in the Army!’ And… said, ‘Go to
Lima, Ohio, guarantee you’ll be hired in a tank plant.’ I’m done. That’s all I told him, ‘I’m done.’ I
had sixty days of leave accumulated, that’s back then – reason why no one really went home,
cause you still had to pay for your airline ticket, compared to today where they have free flights.
(2:18:24)
I saw all of Germany that I wanted to see. Dachau, and Munich, Berlin, got to go to East Berlin,
which was very scary and unnerving. Cause being to me, was like walking into a black-andwhite movie. Still war-damaged.
Interviewer: “And this is now like 1987 or something?’
�Pardon me?
Interviewer: “This is still like 1987?”
No, this was 1985.
Interviewer: “Okay, so a little earlier, but not that much—”
Before I went to Fort Polk.
Interviewer: “Okay.”
They were offering tours by then, go to East Berlin, there was forty of us. We had to take the
troop train to go over there. Went through checkpoint Charlie, most of our uniform – all of our
uniforms, we had to wear dress greens, everything from our ribbons, nametags, and our
battalion insignias, and our patches had to be taken off. Here’s the rules. Don’t start no trouble,
if you start trouble you’ll cause a war. Visit, go to a guesthouse, look around. Okay, we did that.
Once we got through checkpoint Charlie and on their side, there was no color. I swear to god
there was no color. Everybody looked depressed, they were so war-damaged. And we were
told, ‘You’re gonna be spied on right away, there’s cameras around. They’re gonna be looking
at you, please don’t do nothing stupid.’ So we went to the guesthouse, we’re all hungry and…
the German that was running it, East German, she was glad to see us. One, she knew we had
money, and we had exchanged our money for East German marks. But she knew we had
money. And got into the place, and noticed there, still for the longest time, there’s still the same
people sitting in there. And told that to the NCO that was in charge, he goes, ‘That’s KGB. So
don’t talk about your job, if they ask you about your job, just tell ‘em you’re in the United States
Army. Don’t tell ‘em you worked on dadada, you know, or poppin’ pimples. Don’t tell ‘em
nothing, don’t tell ‘em what state you’re from.’ And they didn’t.. off the street somewhere, ‘You
have a cigarette?’ They.. for American cigarettes were black marketed over there. But they
would exchange you East German and Russian cigarettes. You ever heard this old slang, ‘A
certain part of your body will get knocked to the floor,’ I’ll tell you once we’re done here, I did
smoke a Russian cigarette. Remember Granny from Beverly Hillbillies, way she drank the
moonshine, the smoke, and… aw. But we ended up having soup, drank beer, we walked around
East Berlin, and they were still showing us war damage, very little rebuild from after the war.
Then we saw Russian soldiers, they were around, but they knew we were Americans, but we
were there for a day. Just walking around, just absorb— but everything just, we saw the
Russian cars, saw the sickle and hammer everywhere. And still was able to see the Berlin Wall
and if you’re on the west side you see nothing but graffiti along the west side. On the east side,
grey concrete, and blocks. And barbed wires. And you saw the barbed wire where it was a gap,
then another section of barbed wire, then the fence. There was mines, and you saw the gun
towers. So when our time was up, went back through checkpoint Charlie, exchanged our marks,
we all had McDonalds in Berlin. We had two days in Berlin, we partied. But then you always
heard people complain about how much they hated the U.S., you saw it on the news at the time.
‘I hate the U.S.,’ especially when they started burning the flags. We used to say, if you hate it
�that much, East Germany will take you in a heartbeat, Russia will take you, move there. You got
it made! And cause if you spoke negative of the communist government, you’re put in prison. Or
disappear for good, so when I heard Americans complaining, ‘Go to Russia!’ And said that one
time when I was home, to a friend I went to high school with. ‘Go to Russia! What’s holding you
here?’ ‘I’m not gonna go over there.’ ‘Go! They’ll welcome you with open arms.’
(2:24:15)
Interviewer: “Alright, okay. So you, then that was a useful sidetrack there but it’s
basically you, basically you’d seen Germany, you were done with that, you were done
with the Army, so you go back home, so you have your sixty day’s leave, so you get to
leave essentially early?”
Exactly, early. Plus with cash. And so I out-processed and I got orders for Fort Dix, New Jersey.
And so there [were] a lot of people at Fort Dix out-processing, which is a process [of] getting out
of the military. And get all your paperwork filled in, then you’re cashing in your leave, and they’re
counting out how much money you got and all this, which turned out to be a nice, some pocket
money. You get one more physical, get your teeth cleaned, eyes examined, and everything. But
you’re in such a hurry where… I want out. And they run you through, past the reenlisting NCO.
‘Still got a chance to stay in,’ and my biggest beef was the – I knew the warrant officer chance,
that was my own fault for not jumping – but what still hurt was staff sergeant, the points, the
freeze on the points. Still, there was no letting up on the points. And he said, well, the
reenlistment officer or NCO at Fort Dix, told him my MOS, he’s looking through, he said,
‘Change your MOS.’ ‘To what?’ ‘Go to a combat, be combat.’ ‘A grunt?’ ‘Guarantee you’ll make
your rank.’ He’s rambling off different MOSs, MOSs – now what I learnt in Germany? No. I was
tired. I didn’t want to go to back through AIT again. I mean, I knew guys who got out of the
military then came back in, and they were very fortunate to get into their MOS. No. So they put
us all on the bus, we had our papers, and everything. We were free. Didn’t look back, get to the
airport in Jersey, there was another reenlistment NCO there – for all of the branches. Climbs up
on the bus, ‘is this the Army bus?’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘Who wants to reenlist, who wants to stay in?’ He’d
come up to me, ‘I know you want to stay in.’ ‘Sit on your— NO. No.’ Already in civilian clothing,
nope, nope. Cause I was tired. Not… I was physically, emotionally drained. Cause the fun was
gone, I know being in the military’s not supposed to be fun, but… when you have to watch out
for other people, ensuring they do things, when you have somebody commit suicide and you
know, you saw the training accidents that were going on… but there was my wife. And a little
girl. So got out, got out in May. Then we, my wife and I, well, we always include our daughter,
got married [on] September 7th, 1988. Got a handshake from Fort Dix, New Jersey, ‘Good luck!’
That was it, good luck.
(2:28:22)
Interviewer: “And then did you go work for General Dynamics or what did you do after
that?”
�No. Cause had some money left over, I frogged around in Holland, we got married, started an
instant family with [a] little girl. And after a while I had to get a job cause money didn’t last long,
learning to live with a little girl in the house, that’s a different animal. I learnt how to shut
bathroom doors. There was no bathroom doors in the barracks, especially in the latrine. So
when you got a little girl [who’d] be bopping around through, ‘Dad’s at the bathroom door!’ ‘What
are you doing Dad?’ ‘I’m urinating.’ ‘What is that Dad?’ And now I’m shouting, (laughter) and I
was still a clean fanatic. Bathroom and all it, couldn’t get used to after she’s brushing her teeth,
spitting in the sink, that was a no-no in.. especially in the latrines, you’d clean up after yourself.
Finally my wife said, ‘She’s a little girl, a three-year-old little girl, she’s not a private.’ Cause I
was still in that military mindset, everything had to be set. So I got a job, busting down truck
tires. I had a tire shop, I knew how to do that already and… these guys… I was still disciplined
military for work, get it done now. Do it right the first time, get it done. Then we can play later,
first [time] working with civilians. They moaned, they groaned, they cried, and I’m thinking of the
days working on those tanks in wintertime in Germany, didn’t get to complain. Your best friend
in the wintertime, trying to unlock a vehicle, is a cigarette lighter to thaw out that lighter. These
guys were complaining here in Michigan, being cold, had to work out in the cold. I remember
helping busting down track down in snow, reattaching track, pulling barrels off.. and just, then
the drug use. If there was overtime they would complain about overtime. We were on call 24/7
you could say, in the military. And I discovered I hate working with civilians. Then also, I’m this
happy guy with [a] handful of medals. And certificates, I mean medals and certificates. Went to
my father-in-law, said, ‘Why don’t you go to the, join the VFW? There should be other military
people you know, guys you could talk to – you know, tell lies and all that.’ Went to the local
VWF, told ‘em I’d like to join. Right away, that post commander said, ‘What years were you in?’ I
told him, ‘Were you in a war?’ ‘Yeah, the Cold War?’ ‘Did you fire a shot?’ ‘At a enemy, no?’
‘You can’t join.’ ‘What?’ ‘I did eight years!’ ‘That’s great, that’s nice, you can’t join. Cause you
were not in a conflict.’ The Cold War was not considered a conflict. Now more than likely the
post commander was a Vietnam vet, I respect that. You know, ate the same food he ate.
(2:32:44)
Interviewer: “It is Legion versus VWF, American Legion if you’re in military.”
Same thing.
Interviewer: “Well the Legion would take you, wouldn’t they?”
Nope.
Interviewer: “Really?”
Nope. Cause American Legion is a foreign war. Now they said, ‘You can join auxiliary but you
gotta pay.’ Auxiliary? I can’t go stand at that bar and shoot the breeze with… cause a lot of
those Vietnam vets, either once they got out of Vietnam they went home or if they still had time
on their – they went to Germany or Korea, or Japan. And when you’re told, ‘No, you can’t join.’
�And I had these medals and the certificates, and you had these Vietnam veterans, fifteen
months at the most in the country, twelve months, might as well say I did six years. And so,
when— so I told my wife, my wife knew I was… and so I kinda put it on the back show for years,
and when Memorial Day rolled around, I… Veterans’ Day, not going to participate in nothing.
And when my kids were going through school they always say, ‘Hey, have the veterans stand
up!’ I would sit down. Cause, all because I [was] not good enough to join the VFW and the
American Legion. And the thing was, I never ran across a Cold War veteran in Holland. And I
guess they’re like me, just kinda low-profile. Then when 9/11 happened, and then all the sudden
that patriotic feeling hits you in the gut and all that, and well even with the first Desert Storm…
and I did receive letters, I got a notification from the local recruiter office, just be prepared, just
in case. Well, nothing came out of that. Then when 9/11, and how they were welcoming back
the troops. Like heroes. And you know, they get the free phone cards, free flights and all this,
I’m like, ‘why didn’t all this happen with us?’ Then reality kicked in, what about the Vietnam
guys? Of course World War II, but how they make a big ordeal then… where I lived in Holland,
we’re next to Tulip City Airport. The jets, drive past there and all a sudden one of the jets [was]
idling, and there was a kerosene smell [that] hit me. Cause on the M1 tanks, they were diesel.
They had turbine engines, has that same exhaust smell. ‘The hell?’ First year my wife and I
were married, being by Tulip City Airport, and National Guard helicopters used to land there.
And they were Hueys, and I don’t know if you’ve ever been told, Huey – the Huey helicopter has
a certain sound with its props. Once you hear it, you know it for life. Then Cobras, the same
thing. I would run out the front door and look, tell my kids, ‘that’s a Huey UH-1, I rode in those,’
which I did. And no matter what the weather was, could’ve been cold as hell outside [in]
Holland, I would run outside since I heard that Huey. Or I hear a Chinook.
(2:37:02)
But then ten years ago I tried to commit suicide. I… it was that fast-paced life from the military,
Germany. So this kid, walking through our neighborhood, looked like that kid that took his own
life. And my kids, my boys were playing Call of Duty. Then the smell of the exhaust, and seeing
this kid. Already pulled the trigger, then my wife and kids flashed in my head. So I spent some
quality time at the hospital, and then the V.A. got involved, and I had to go talk for a while and…
but the things that I learnt while I was in the military, especially Germany, like the chemical
issue, and radioactive fallout, and that stuff stays with you. And they didn’t tell you how to shut it
off.
Interviewer: “So you had your own version really, of PTSD?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “And this came back to you at that moment when all those things came back
together.”
And then that’s what the V.A. diagnosed me with. But I kept telling them I didn’t fire a shot, and
then they explained… so, and right now I have a son, my youngest – the one who used to make
�fun of how I used to talk, I have a southern drawl – he’s in the Army. He’s been in for six years,
and he’s going to reenlist. [Of] all places he’s stationed in Germany. And one of the training
centers, so I was asking him all kind of questions, and of course, how many alerts, and all that
stuff we went through. ‘We don’t do that stuff over here.’ ‘What?!’ ‘Not chemical?’ ‘No.’ ‘What’s
an alert, Dad?’ Oh my god, he’s in Germany! Now he came from Fort Lewis, Washington. And
they were very busy at Fort Lewis for being MPs. Now where he’s at, Hohenfels, they
nicknamed it Mayberry – because it’s so slow, nothing. At Fort Lewis, speeding tickets,
burglaries, assault, drugs, and he’s just sitting there going, ‘I’m at Mayberry.’ But still, you got
that training area back there, ‘You guys ever go out [to] Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels?’ ‘No.’
‘Okay.’ But I have to admit though, it’s the honest truth – I did grow up quite a bit. Now to this
day, could I go – if I could go back to that small town where I came from? In a New York minute.
Cause I know everything that was farms or either subdivisions, they redid a portion of the
highway, I know the place I grew up on – gone. But that lifestyle, you know when you hear these
old country songs, pickup trucks and all that? But the experience I learnt in the military? I would
never trade that in.
Interviewer: “Alright.”
I mean, there was a lot of laughing and giggling, there was a lot of crying. There was a lot of
anger. But the people I served with, I haven’t seen in thirty years. I still think of ‘em. Especially
my very first roommates from Detroit. Still think of ‘em. And.. trying to hook up with these guys,
you know the horror story after college, after you met your friends in college, you guys go your
own way. Then they’re involved with their lives, you get things going in your life, then it’s… you
know, but the memories are good.
Interviewer: “Alright, well, the whole thing makes for a pretty remarkable story, even if
you didn’t get shot at. And I’d like to close this out by just thanking you very much for
taking the time to share the story today.”
Well thank you very much for having me, I should’ve warned you though – being from the part of
Southern Indiana, we do have a knack to yak.
Interviewer: “Hey, well if we were still using tape I could say to you right now, tape is
cheap. But anyway, thank you very much.”
Well thank you very much.
[END]
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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SchererD2287V
Creator
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Scherer, David
Date
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2018-11
Title
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Scherer, David (Interview transcript and video), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
David Scherer served in the U.S. Army from 1980 until 1988. He served as a sergeant in the 19th Maintenance Battalion, 302nd Maintenance Battalion, 705th Maintenance Battalion, and the 3rd Infantry Division. He was stationed primarily in Germany and the U.S.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Rights
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In Copyright
Type
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Moving Image
Text
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f7fc2df550a341d3d6db8fb275039615.mp4
3ebbf5d53f408315da53f21f5bc3bdcf
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2ad1d59ec00543af33f4d8d685b2a19c.pdf
f9eaf97e586797fbf0b3496a3bf74f7e
PDF Text
Text
Ryman, Donald
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Korean War
Interviewee’s Name: Donald Ryman
Length of Interview: 1:18:00
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Hokulani Buhlman
INTERVIEWER: We’re talking today with Don Ryman of Buchanan, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley Veterans History Project. Okay Don,
start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with: where and when you
were born?
Well I was born at Brady Lake, Ohio, April 1st 1928. My father at that time was going to Kent
State University and he was given a life certificate as a teacher in Ohio, so they had rented this
cottage at Brady Lake. Well my father had a degree in Mechanical Engineering from Carnage
Tech but he liked to teach school.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Well, he changed jobs all the time. We moved 11 times until finally we were able to buy a home
in East Canton, Ohio and we landed there, well, August 9th 1939. Well just a few weeks later
World War II started and it wasn’t too long after that that we had Pearl Harbor and I lived
through all those things.
INTERVIEWER: Just kinda back up a little bit and fill some of this in. So did your father
have teaching jobs all this time?
Well, he… No, he didn’t, because the Depression. But he did have teaching jobs—he taught
manual training and other stuff at Lewisville High School, but the Depression came along and
one of the school board members said “Well I’m a carpenter, I can do manual training.” so my
father lost his job, and my father during the 30s was in and out of employment. And that was a
pretty rough time for us. Well, when World War II started the demand for engineers increased
and so he was able to have a job.
INTERVIEWER: Right.
During World War II. (2:14)
�Ryman, Donald
INTERVIEWER: Right. Now you were kind of young at the time but do you remember
how you heard about Pearl Harbor?
Oh, oh yes. (Ryman laughs) We had some friends from the First Christian Church in Canton and
they came out to our house after church and they said “Oh, there’s been this attack at Dutch
Harbor!” So we looked on the map and that’s in Alaska, they got it wrong! Well then later we
found it was Pearl Harbor.
INTERVIEWER: You know that Dutch Harbor got attacked too?
Yes, and I didn’t know Pearl harbor any better than I knew Dutch Harbor to tell the truth. But
then well the war started and I was thinking, while I was 13 years old, well I wasn’t that brave a
guy I thought “Well maybe this will all be over” because by the time I’m old enough to go into
the service. And that’s with Hiroshima, that’s what happened.
INTERVIEWER: Alright, now during the war years how did the war kind of affect daily
life? I mean, did you notice rationing or things like that?
(Ryman laughs) We didn’t have gasoline, we couldn’t drive our car very much! Yeah well, they
rationed shoes and food and everything—my mother had problems getting money, food for the
table, and I’d only get maybe one new pair of shoes a year. Yeah we knew that. Well, there were
these boys I knew in high school who were a little older who got in the service, and some of
them died in the service. And that made an impression upon me. And I was pretty mad at the
Germans because—you know people use the term ‘collaborate’. That irritates me. A collaborator
is somebody who cooperates with the enemy and I never use that, and I don’t like it. There’s all
other kind of synonyms are used for collaboration so that’s just one of the things I got out of the
war. Well, the war kept going on and on and I was in high school and it just happened and I had
skipped a grade, so my classmates were a year older. And in 1945 they turned 18 and they were
going into the service. Well for one reason or another most of them joined the Navy; I did have
one classmate who was involved, he was a couple years older, and they picked him up in
December of 1944 and he got into some of the last combat in France and Germany. So there I
was, well, I was 17 years old I was gonna turn 18 April 1st 1945, so what should I do? Well my
parents they didn’t like war very well, they were pacifist, but their parents had been involved in
the Civil War in the Shenandoah Valley and I guess both sides forged and took their food and
things like that, they didn’t have much for war but their attitude was “Okay, when the draft war
comes and gets ya, you will go.” In the meantime though I figured I’d get a year of college.
(6:01)
INTERVIEWER: Right.
�Ryman, Donald
So I started Ohio State University in June of 1945.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, now how were you able to afford college at that point?
Well, my father was employed. I worked and I did get a job in the summer in the factory in
Canton, Union Metal, and I saved that money. My mother cleaned houses and my father worked
and so we managed to scrape by although it was a near thing, but there was only $15 a month,
$15 a quarter for tuition, $45 a month room and board, so I was able to scrape by.
INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah. You had more state support for universities in those days, a
little bit cheaper.
Well I think maybe so. Well, then I got there and these fellows from Cleveland said “Well, you
know, if you took 15 hours, 20 hours a quarter you could graduate earlier.” And you don’t wanna
go to Ohio State University law school. That’s at the bottom of the lake tech. You wanna go to
one of the big (sounds like “bee-sir”) law schools like Columbia or Harvard or whatever. So I set
my cap to go to Harvard Law School and I did; I would take 20 hours a quarter and graduated in
10 quarters, which was from Ohio State, which was just it, you know, that was at the end the
48th, in June of ‘48 I got admitted to Harvard Law School, I had a full tuition. I did well in
school, I’m Phi Betta Kappa and so I was going well and with full tuition I had to have my room
and board at Harvard Law School. Well we able to keep up with it for our first year but then I
just had a 69, if I had a 70 I could have kept my scholarship, but I didn’t have it and so in the last
two years I think I ended up owing Harvard $2300. Which in 1951 was quite a bit of money. I
was driving used cars for quite a while then to pay off that debt. Well also the Korean War
started in June of 1950 and I was just getting ready to go to my last year of Harvard Law School.
Well immediately I had a physical exam notice and I passed it and then I had a draft notice. Well
what do you do when you get a draft notice? You take your mother down the draft board. Well
fortunately they had a policy of giving you a stay of induction to the end of the academic year if
you were going to be back in school before the date of induction. Well I qualified on that so I
managed to get through the year but I thought they would insist on going the infantry—well they
liberalized that because the Navy and the Air Force and the Marines were complaining they were
getting all these college boys out of stays of induction, so I got another draft notice! And I’ll tell
ya that really impresses you, getting your draft notice from the President of the United States
greeting. It’s just one greeting! So I was able to enlist in the Navy, so I went to San Diego and.
(9:55)
INTERVIEWER: Now, when you were in college back in Ohio State did they have ROTC
there?
�Ryman, Donald
Oh yeah. I had to take two years of ROTC.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
That didn’t give me that good an impression of the army either, to tell the truth.
INTERVIEWER: Well what did you actually do in the ROTC training there?
Well, we were, as I recall, we were taking classes, we were reading manuals, knowing things
about that. In the Summer of ‘45 while the war was still going on we were doing a lot of
marching. It seems to me we didn’t do so much marching from there, but I thought the quality of
teaching in the quality of rating wasn’t up to as good as Ohio State University. I hadn’t been
pulled down by pain [but] by point average, which kind of irritated me because the girls didn’t
have something like that pulling down their point average but I didn’t think it mattered for me
getting into Harvard Law School or getting the scholarship As a matter of fact that was the first
year they had the Law School Admission Test and at that point they said “Well, we won’t pay
any attention to it except if you’re on that—on the edge.” The school said “Okay well we’ll look
at that, maybe look at that and decide [if] we’ll admit you.” But yeah, that, probably I learned
some good stuff in the ROTC but I wasn’t that impressed with it. (11:30)
INTERVIEWER: Right, okay. But now you’ve chosen the Navy, and then where and when
do you report now for training?
Well, I had enlisted in Canton, Ohio and they sent me over to Pittsburgh and a bunch of us they
put us all in planes and flew us out to San Diego to the Naval Training Center there, and that’s
where I spent about 16 weeks in boot training.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Now that was, I thought “Oh gee, the Navy’s kinda mediocre.” but really they had this thing set
up, they were training us as enlisted men to do what we would be doing and they were thinking
we’d be on the Destroyer. All their training at that time was set up [as] what you would do if you
were on a Destroyer and you were dealing with 5 inch, 38 caliber guns. So I got that. I also had a
deal that I could go to a service school and learn one of the ratings. So mine was I picked, for
some reason, Personnel Man. A Personnel Man was a yeoman who worked for a personal
records. In those days I thought “Oh Personnel things, that’s pretty good. Working in Personnel.”
I changed my mind later but I did get my rating, but then I was sent to Newport, Rhode Island, I
went to Naval OCS. Well it was called Naval School Officer Candidate, now during World War
II they had midshipman school but this is a whole new thing in the Korean War and I was in the
6th class that generated from that. Well they did give us an absence commission and a regular
�Ryman, Donald
commission and we were eligible to succeed command, we could go all the way up to Chief of
Naval Operations this was a regular line commitment and we have a star on our cuff. And you
know over the years I’ve been kinda proud of going through that. (13:55)
INTERVIEWER: So basically this is a regular commission as opposed to a Reserve Officer
commission? Basically?
Yeah that’s right. Well I was in the regular Navy as a matter of fact but enlisted.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah. When you originally enlisted was there an expectation that you
would train as an officer? In the academy?
I didn’t know.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
I didn’t know.
INTERVIEWER: So the boot camp really just was the standard enlisted man’s bootcamp?
Yes that’s right. And I did the Personnelmen School and on board the Destroyer I would be
typing up personnel records. One of the things I did learn from it though was how to type.
(Ryman laughs) And that was useful, that’s been useful ever since you know I still type on
Microsoft Word or whatever it is. It’s useful. (14:47)
INTERVIEWER: Okay, and in the boot camp was there a lot of spit and polish stuff and
emphasis on discipline?
Well, to an extent. As a matter of fact the fella—the officer in charge at San Diego at that time
kinda was, he was known as a Martinet but oh okay to an extent we would get inspections where
we’d have to have our shoes shined and stuff like that. I managed to get through that okay but the
thing was I was right out of Harvard Law School and I really got good grades on the exam. I did
the best in my whole , you know we know the kind of whole outfit of many companies and I got
elected honorman of Company 705! (Ryman laughs) I saw somebody’s obituary recently that
they put that down that they have an honorman. Well that had some significance but the reason I
got it was because I think I’d done so well on the test.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. And was it hard to adjust to the life in the Navy?
�Ryman, Donald
Oh yeah! Well, being in boot training was like being in a concentration camp, to walk any place
away from the barracks you had to get a walking chip. Oh yeah that adjustment was hard but
there I was, I had signed up for it.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, okay. So basically you just kind of went with it and did what they
told you?
Oh yes, yeah, yes. I was smart enough to know that I didn’t have any alternative. (16:35)
INTERVIEWER: Now were you one of the old guys there? Or were there a lot of other
college boys?
Yeah I guess I was! Well there were a couple guys from Pittsburgh who maybe were 20 years
old but I was 23 and it was interesting a lot of these guys were 17 years old. And I just observed
how they adjusted to the Navy because when they got out at 21 they would be younger than I
was at 23. It was an interesting experience being in bootcamp, yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, alright, and then the officer training then in Newport, what did
you actually do in that training?
Well, we had mostly academic studies. We did a little bit of—we did a lot of marching in
bootcamp but we had paved roads and the Marine Corps Recruit Depot was just a little way
away from us and we’d see the dust coming up from those guys marching. They were marching
on dusty roads. (Ryman laughs) Yeah we did a lot of marching but, well in OCS we did some
marching. I was never a big guy for marching to tell the truth, but we were taking courses:
Navigation, Operation, things we needed to do as Junior Officers on the Destroyer, as an officer
of the deck. Or if we were assigned below we were an engineering officer what we would do.
But that’s what we had, those courses, so we could become a good officer of the deck. Well one
of the things I always had against McCain was that Indianapolis and I was paying his education
and he was trying to be the last guy in his class so the President would give him his diploma.
Now he’s wasting my money. I was trying to be the best I could, well I thought I’d better know
this stuff if I went out there some place and I’m officer of the deck and I have to make quick
decisions as to what to do to navigate the ship! Now this is not too long after the Missouri ran
aground and I think there was an ensign on that and he didn’t follow the rule as to buoys: Red,
Right, Returning. If you’re going into port you keep the red buoys to the right, well he didn’t pay
attention to that and he ran the ship aground and the Navy was terribly embarrassed about all
that. Well in those days we were getting books like Mr. Roberts and The Caine Mutiny, well you
know they made Junior Officers look good and not bad but they didn’t encourage us to be very
spit and polish as Junior Officers and I wasn’t, I probably should have been—you know I was
trying to dumb, not to be more spit and polished but I did what I had to do. I know the smart
�Ryman, Donald
salute and all of that and keeping my uniform nice and those things I did, but one of the things I
would get in trouble for was I wouldn’t, when I went to a new post, I wouldn’t go and introduce
myself to the officer in command. That’s something I got I think from Mr. Roberts or The Caine
Mutiny. Well that was kind of dumb they didn’t like that when I didn’t do that but you know
generally I was trying to be a good officer like I was going to make a career of it, I really was. I
did make statements like “Well I don’t care what’s in my fitness report.” you know I was going
how long, I was gonna be there for 3 years and that was the end of it which was pretty stupid.
But you know when I got my commission I was just 24 years old and I was supposed to be able
with that commission to guide people who had been in the Navy almost their whole life.
Quartermasters and all these enlisted men who had made a career after it and really, but I thought
I saw better than others, that I had a certain position but I didn’t know as much as all these Petty
Officers aboard the ship and we would work it out together. I think the Petty Officers respected
me. I had a good relationship with them. (21:44)
INTERVIEWER: Alright. So when do you finish training at Newport?
Well in July, around July 30th.
INTERVIEWER: What year?
1952. We got our commissions, now that was an interesting thing they hadn’t figured out if they
had to discharge us from the regular Navy and we could have walked, and they told us we could
walk. Well, if we walked, you know I had 1 year, the draft board #110 would have picked me up
again you see. So and the next day we got sworn into the Navy Reserve as ensigns and went to
our next post which for me for some reason was the Eighth Naval District. Those really surprised
a lot of people because they were turning out these ensigns to go on board destroyers and larger
ships.
INTERVIEWER: Crew. Okay but you got—so where was the 8th Naval Headquarters?
The district headquarters?
It was in New Orleans. And they though “Gee, that’s great you’re gonna go to New Orleans they
got jazz!” Well I didn’t like jazz I liked classical music and when I got to New Orleans and I
found it was this very badly managed city, and I had grown up in the north Canton, Ohio,
Cleveland, they originated the city manager I was used to well-managed communities, or Boston
where I had been in Harvard Law School so I was disdainful I probably didn’t think “Well, okay,
just enjoy New Orleans for what it is.” but I was judgmental. And I was right, when Katrina
came along it finally caught up with them and they didn’t fix that levee and they got flooded!
INTERVIEWER: Okay and so that’s something you’re looking at in 1952—
�Ryman, Donald
Yeah that’s right!
INTERVIEWER: And then, you know, 57 years later it happens in New Orleans.
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER: Okay now what was your actual job in New Orleans?
Well I, they first had me in another job or some statistical… well as a security officer one of the
things that I had was the Commander of the Headquarters of the Naval Guard. We had the guard
and I was put in charge of that, that was my experience being a policeman it was very useful. All
of a sudden I found out “Oh this isn’t such a good job, having to tell people they have to follow
the rules.” and ever since I’ve had a better relation, I think, with policemen on account of that.
Well we would make security inspections in the East Naval District and I would go along with
them through Corpus Christi or other places, I remember making an inspection into the
consolidated western steel at Orange, Texas. Well they had their fences and other stuff left from
World War II. Well, I was supposed to make a report as to what they should do, well I could
have said “Oh, well you gotta fix up those fences there and all of those things in case the North
Koreans come invading Orange, Texas.” Not very likely. Well we had adopted the Navy
fortunately, common sensically adopted the idea of perimeter security. Having security where
you really needed it: where you had your classified information in safes and things like that. So
on my report covered that and sometimes I would go with some of the more senior officers, I
remember we went over to Corpus Christi and we went over to Kingsville, Texas which was
right on the edge of the King Ranch which was very interesting. Well I remembered one day, and
they have there at Kingsville, they have a place where they were training pilots. Well one of the
them landed on the King Ranch, or crashed on the King Ranch, so we got to go on the King
Ranch and see that so we were saying “What do you have to have in the way of security at
Kingsville, Texas?” Well you didn’t have perimeter security, you had to protect any registered
publications you had and you had to protect classified matter, and you had to be very careful
about it and it’s set too with Hillary Clinton, I was really shocked at some of that but you know,
she’d never been in the military. (27:03)
INTERVIEWER: That’s okay the government servers were out of date and not very useful
so they were cutting corners.
Well, yeah. They perhaps, I can’t imagine treating classified matter in that way but that’s just my
thing. I was very very much school in handling classified material, realizing that a lot of us overclassified. Whoever had it would make him look better if he classified it secretly than to be
declassified and confidential. But nevertheless when it was classified secrets you handled it
�Ryman, Donald
accordingly. So really no excuse for not properly handling it, but that’s another subject. Well, I
apparently did well at that, well after I got out of service I didn’t have quite enough promotion
points for Lieutenant–for Senior Lieutenant so I took a Correspondence course. Well I took it in
Naval Security and I got a 400 perfect score. So apparently I learned something about Naval
security.
INTERVIEWER: So about how long did you do the naval security thing?
About two years.
INTERVIEWER: Okay so that pretty much was your time in New Orleans, then.
That’s right, that’s right. Well, New Orleans, at the Unitarian Church at coffee hour I met
Martha, my wife. Around 65 years ago and we got married, so that’s one of the great things I got
from New Orleans. (28:48)
INTERVIEWER: Alright, now did you, doing the security stuff, deal with kind of criminal
issues or people stealing things or what was that?
Nope, no, no. I was. I was irritated that I wasn’t put in the legal department and I knew those
lawyers who are in the legal department, well I wasn’t and they had me as Assistant Counsel but
that didn’t go over very well with the general court-martial. And they did, I was on a general
court-martial for a month, so I got that kind of experience but no, I wasn’t getting any legal
experience while I was there.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
Well then, but the deal was if you had shore duty you could get sea duty so they ordered me to
the USS Coral Sea, which at that time was the newest carrier in the fleet and one of the three
largest. And I was just ordered that well, in those days they didn’t have a Naval JAG, and court
martials, the junior officers handled his trial and defense counsels, but the senior who had been
senior captains who would be commanding officers of a carrier like the Coral Sea said to the
Bureau of Naval Personnel “You’re gonna order somebody here who is a law school graduate
and he’s a member of the bar and he will be a legal officer.” Well I didn’t realize that was the
situation but when I got there I was legal officer. Well I had no experience navigating your ship
but I was an unrestricted line officer so I had to stand those watches. So I stood watch as the
Junior Officer of the deck, that’s private experience.
INTERVIEWER: Okay back up here a little bit again. Okay, you… to go back to New
Orleans about just, just life down there at the time, I mean it was a segregated society.
�Ryman, Donald
Oh yeah, yeah… that of course bothered me a lot. But we didn’t have a Civil Rights Act, in those
days I was a political liberal and the Unitarian Church was integrated in New Orleans, and the
Unitarians are working in the south or working to do what they could to get rid of, well they call
it South Valley segregation but it was quite an experience riding on the bus to go to work and
you had to sit cause the bus was segregated. There was a, actually there was a thing you’d put in
the back of the seat because we’d go through black neighborhoods and then white neighborhoods
so we’ve had a lot of black and a lot of white. And so we would switch that wooden…
INTERVIEWER: Partition or bar or something?
Partition!
INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
And you know I felt bad about putting that in the face of these blacks and saying well, well in
effect saying, well you have to stay back there. No, I wasn’t, it didn’t make me love segregation.
And I was there when Brown v. Board of Education was decided and oh boy there was, a lot of
those people didn’t like it very well. People whom I thought should know better really. I mean,
Ulysses S. Grant tried to enforced the 14th and 15th amendment and it’s unfortunate the Hays
election where they, well as a Republican, they backed off their position and you know you had
them until Lyndon Johnson put through a civil rights for blacks. You know, you could say stuff
about Lyndon Johnson but that was a tremendous thing he did and maybe his motives were to
right things but so what?
INTERVIEWER: Okay now the military was in the process of desegregating when you
were interviewing, Truman had started that back in ‘47.
Yes, that’s right. Well in the Navy they weren’t going very fast, the blacks were stewards. They
had black stewards and they had a lot of Filipino stewards. In my OCS class there were some
blacks, there were some black officers but as I recall that was few and far between.
INTERVIEWER: Now on the Coral Sea did they have black seamen or were the seamen all
white?
Yes they did.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
�Ryman, Donald
They had black seamen, matter of fact, in my boot company. They were gradually but I’m not
sure what the Navy was doing then some of the rest of them on that. Well I had two captains on
the Coral Sea, in those days those captains immediately became your admirals. The second one I
got to know quite well, David McDonald, but he was from the south he was from Winder,
Georgia and he had the usual southern view of it. He had… he didn’t like the black stewards he
had two Filipino stewards, well but that ended up with some of my experience: we were in
Gibraltar around Easter of 1955 and his two stewards got charged with beating up on the
merchant. When they were coming back to the ship these merchants were lined up trying to sell
‘em stuff. Somebody did beat up on one of them and work ‘em over with a broken bottle and
they were held there. Well, what were we gonna do? Well, I got word back I was supposed to
stay ashore and try to do what I could for ‘em. In those days, you know, I was a young guy.
Really I was supposed to cope with it, spring him loose and get him back to the ship. Well I hired
two solicitors who were his little brothers there in Gibraltar. Now as a matter of fact they did say,
with the Navy relief thing for enlisted men was to pay my expenses there. Now that was kind of
interesting. The enlisted people wanted me to stay there. Anyway I got the word out I was
supposed to stay there, it wasn’t direct from Captain McDonald and thinking back I should have
said “Well, what does Captain McDonald, the CEO think?” Well I didn’t. Well they started—
they did their research very well and they had something that went back to World War II and still
goes on: the Status of Forces Act. Well under that act the Gibraltar authorities had no jurisdiction
over these stewards. They were to be returned to their unit, the unit would do any kind of
discipline that was taking place. Now this came up in the Iraqi thing when Obama said “Well, I
can’t leave these people here cause we can’t get a Status of Forces agreement.” Well, you know,
that’s political. I doubt that that’s true. (37:14)
INTERVIEWER: But you knew what a Status of Forces Agreement was.
But I can see how you need that because otherwise these US forces will be there and wanna get
the justice of the peace or somebody want to get some business they’ll start accusing him of
crimes and things like that. That went back to World War II in England. So we did get him loose,
brought them back to the ship and I was a hero. And that started a good relationship with Captain
McDonald; prior to that he had me and the repair officer for lunch. When he came aboard he was
having some of the department heads for lunch and he was talking to me he said “You know,
Ryman, I wanted to be a lawyer but there wasn’t that money in the family, but in those days they
called a lawyer Colonel and he was respected in the community.” he said “Today I don’t know
the lawyers, they're not as good, you know, when you applied to be a lawyer you had to be
dishonest.” I said, “Captain” I said “If I can’t make an honest living as a lawyer I’ll do something
else.” Well I think that cemented our relationship when I said that. And I had, you know I had
other things with him I’m just trying to think… Well I was you know I had the legal officer and
he was the convening authority and he was the one who was in charge of discipline, but that
work I did, you know, he had captain’s mast that was written, and these guys well in the states
�Ryman, Donald
they’d all go—well a lot of ‘em would go AWOL—these dumb guys they go AWOL. What they
wanted to get was a bad conduct discharge and kicked. They weren’t thinking about how that
would affect them getting jobs or stuff later but overseas they’re getting, always, drunk and
disorderly charges. So I was working with him on that. Oh, and of course I was standing these
deck watches on the bridge too. Well I remember one night one of my classmates in class 6 were
there and he was Officer of the deck and I was Junior Officer of the deck and that. You know the
doctors and dentists they would immediately get a commission as lieutenant junior grade, we had
to sweat through OCS and we might end up not getting any commission at all and we’d be
ensigns, well, and we’d have to stay on as ensigns for a year and then we’d probably move to
Lieutenant Junior grade. Well those guys would come up on the bridge because that was
interesting: watching me, you know, being there going up and down the Mediterranean. Well one
night the officer of the deck, my friend, I’m not gonna mention his name, he said “Well, you
know, let’s have a mail buoy.” and he said to the dentist, “They’re gonna drop a mail buoy in the
Mediterranean and we need somebody out, we need a lookout on the end of the flight deck to see
where this landed.” Well of course mail buoys are like—there wasn’t any such thing.
INTERVIEWER: Snipe hunting.
Skyhook’s another thing. You know, I wasn’t entirely sure I was kinda a naive, young guy so I
helped officer deck we fitted him up with a .45 pistol and he went out on the end of the flight
deck to look for it. Well the lookouts and other people on the bridge knew all about it and they
were kind of buzzing about it, Captain was in his at sea cabin and he heard the buzzing, so he got
up and got on the rigs and somebody pointed to the dentist on the end of the flight deck. Well, he
wasn’t a profane man, but he said “Well I’ll be a god damned son of a bitch, get that guy back up
here before he kills himself!” which we did. That was quite an incident, but you know of course
he could’ve put both of us back but I was a legal officer, maybe that helped me. But that was
quite an incident. But Captain McDonald was a very skilled officer, we would refuel destroyers
that came up against the ship and then you have to fuel them. Well that was kind of a tricky
thing, you had the hose and you could separate that hose if you didn’t navigate well. Well with
Captain McDonald on the bridge, well one of my friends who was a Supply Officer talked to him
about it. He said “Well, when I was in Indianapolis I got the floor for navigation.” He was very
good at navigating ships. Well that was interesting. Well he showed us one morning while I was
there, with the same—it just happened—I was Junior Officer of the deck with the same guy from
the other time and the Admiral changed the screen. On the screen determined your location but
you had to give orders to the helm and so that you would be in the right position. Well,
Lieutenant Junior—the guy that was officer of deck—had gotten the props. He was trying to use
something we had and the maneuvering board to figure it out and the Captain came on the bridge
and it was just chaos. Ships bow to stern and they were all over the place, Destroyers, aircraft
carriers, we usually had another aircraft carrier with us. Well, McDonald said, he said, “Throw
away that maneuvering board! Tell me where you wanna go and I’ll get you there.” and so the
�Ryman, Donald
Lieutenant Junior gave him what position we had and in, it seemed to me like about a minute, he
had everybody on our station. I was really impressed. Well, see we had a maneuvering board
thing we learned in OCS and we’d figure it out on that, well that’d take a little time particularly
for us inexperienced guys. But I was very impressed with that and he was a great guy, when I
came to Park Equipment Company I had two years of practice with Smith & Schnacke in Dayton
plus the time I had on the Coral Sea. Well I wanted to be getting a minute in Michigan on
motion—I had three years though, so I had to count the time on the Coral Sea. Well I wrote the
then Admiral, John, and I wrote down well I said “Admiral, I have this letter here. I’ve written it
describing what I did on the Coral Sea and really with the law practice I was the only lawyer on
there, and I was doing it for better or for worse, including the guys who’d come up with their
own personal problems and that was part of my job.” So I sent it to him and he signed a letter, he
said “Well, that’s accurate enough.” I signed it and sent it to the Board of Law of Examiners and
they didn’t accept it. I had to take the Michigan BAR exam, I was 8 years out of law school on
account of that. Well I passed but he did that for me. He was just super person, you know some
of the retrained officers from World War II they weren’t that great but he was, in all respects he
was very good. He didn’t put on a lot of airs, you know, “I am the 4 striper Captain vs.
Lieutenant Junior” you know. So I kept in touch with him for quite awhile after that and
eventually he became Chief of Naval Operations. The top guy in the Navy. (46:53)
INTERVIEWER: Now I want to wind your story back a ways cause you started getting
into things on the Coral Sea and one of the things we didn’t talk about was how you
actually got from New Orleans to the ship, cause you told me it took about three months.
Well, oh, of course. Well we drove. I had some leave so we visited with my mother in Canton,
my father had just died a couple years earlier, then we went to Culver, Indiana, she was from
Culver and we were there for awhile. Then I took the train to Norfolk. Well, the Coral Sea, it
was in the Mediterranean so they had to give me or arrange for some way. Well they put me on
the Shewauken, which was a gasoline—it was a tanker.
INTERVIEWER: An oiler.
Gasoline and equivalent, they had aviation gasoline on it. So I got on that, well, I worked up a
good relationship with the Captain on there. He was a good guy, I think he was a teacher, he got
recalled he was a Lieutenant Commander. And turned out I was the oldest of the Junior Officers
aboard—he liked to play Scrabble and I did too so we’d play Scrabble at night. Well, he had a
guy, John Shilling Kanavan, a guy, an Irishman from Boston and he had these guys when we got
into Norfolk they’d just leave. Well, unfortunately Kanavan came back so he had to tried him for
AWOL. So he asked me if I would help him do that. Well, of course I’ve been in New Orleans
and unknown General Court Martial so I did that, I served the President of the Court Martial and
took care of all that for him and he really did appreciate that, and I didn’t have anything to do so
�Ryman, Donald
that was a great thing to do. So we, yeah we cross the Atlantic, I remember Hurricane Carol was
coming up the east coast at that time and the communications officer was worrying we were
gonna get caught in that. Fortunately we didn’t. Well I remember one night we were crossing the
Atlantic and, oh god I suppose we were going 20 knots—at 22 miles per house and this ship
came up over the horizon. It was an ocean liner; it was the Independence and here it was, we
watched it go by and we thought of all of those people on that ship having drinks and all that
stuff and we’re on this great vessel. (Ryman laughs) And of course from Josephus Daniels in
World War I there was no liquor on naval vessels. (Laughs again.) So then there it went,
speeding past us, they were probably doing about 20 knots or 25 knots, 30 knots. 30 knots is
probably not the top that the Coral Sea could do; 30-31 and it’s 35 miles an hour for a thousand
foot vessel in the Mediterranean, that was quite a lot. So I ended up at Cannes and switched over
to the Coral Sea. (50:24)
INTERVIEWER: Okay and now describe the Coral Sea a little bit for people not familiar
with aircraft carriers, just size or what it's like to live on it.
Well it was roughly a thousand feet long, on an aircraft carrier of course on top of it is a flight
deck and underneath it is the hanger deck where you have the planes, where you have the planes
when usually you’re not operating. You might have some of them on the hanger that you’ve tied
down and I remember the legal office was on the port side up under the flight deck. So that was
okay but it was, you know we had to go up and down some ladders to get where we wanted to go
and if we wanted to get to the bridge of course, you see on the starboard side was the island with
the bridge at the top. The navigating bridge was at the top, underneath it was the Admiral's
bridge, we carried an Admiral on the bridge. His name was Crruise, Admiral Cruise, he was
Commander of Carrier Division 6 and he had his bridge lost but we were up there on the top and
navigating and, you know, arranging for the dentist to go down and lookout for the mailbuoys so.
And that was about 13 flights to get up there. Well I remember the sad story there was one
officer, he was a Lieutenant and he was what you called a Mustang, he had enlisted and he got
promoted and became an officer. He was racing up those stairs one day after I left and he had a
heart attack and died. You gotta be in good physical shape to do that. And I guess it’s still true. I
don’t think they have elevators up to those things; they did have an elevator for the pilots for one
flight up into the ready room as I recall, so yeah well, okay. Then we would be there on the
bridge and the flight deck was filled with these planes, these guys in different colored uniforms
were playing pushers, I mean we’d be watching them take off and landing, very interesting. Well
at night time they’d get those things on the bridge and they’d be running up the engines, those
things are screaming, and with that I got 20% hearing loss (chuckles) which I’m being paid for
finally, now that I’m DA. Oh! It was, you know it was really good to be an unrestricted line
officer, these days the legal officers and the jag, well they’re below deck all the time. They’re
kinda like the dentist, they wanna get above deck on the flight deck and on the bridge and watch
what’s going on! Ah man, I suppose when they go in there Lieutenant Junior grade they’re staff
�Ryman, Donald
officers. Well, perhaps that’s the best way to run it but I got the chance to be a line officer and
actually I’d be in a position where I was helping in navigation of the ship. If I’d been there long
enough you see I would have qualified for Officer of the Deck and here you have these guys, 25
years old, in charge of this thousand feet long ship going up and down the Mediterranean. The
Navy set it up that way and it worked then, I’m remembering they were having some trouble
with collisions out in the Pacific and I never could understand that but it could. Well they said
the Officers of the Deck that hit that weren’t properly trained; well we just had 16 weeks of OCS
so it weren’t ours.
INTERVIEWER: So you were talking about that incident with your captain coming in and
correcting everything that was kind of a mess. (55:23)
Yeah, right!
INTERVIEWER: And so if that goes on a little bit longer maybe somebody hit somebody.
Well yeah, right right, yeah. But John… yeah. Could’ve been bad, well everybody had turned off
their engines when and they were just they weren’t moving.
INTERVIEWER: Okay.
But still… yeah that’s kinda tricky. Well those submarines, the destroyer commander is usually
Lieutenant Commander or Commander. They prided themselves on their ability to control those
ships, so did everybody down to the ensigns on the bridge, so that was fortunate but you know
some other Annapolis graduate who hadn’t got the sword might have gotten into trouble in that
situation.
INTERVIEWER: Alright, now during the year when you’re with the Coral Sea was the
whole time spent in the Mediterranean or did you come back to the states at some point?
Oh no we came back to the states, we came after December. And Martha had rented a house in
Oceanside and so I was out trying to 9-to-5 because they took the Coral Sea into the Naval
Shipyard at Portsmouth and they had it in there, and they were working on it, so I drive to work
every day in my 1947 Studebaker Commander. Oh god that was a nice car. And so we were there
until March and our first daughter was born February 2nd, which was about two days after the
government declared the Korean War over based on an armistice which still holds today. No, I
was stateside and then we left in April—March? You know, March of ‘55 and I was slated to get
out I think July and I did. I asked to go back by ship. Well the captain thought, you know, he was
a pilot himself. I think he thought a little less of me that I wasn’t flying. Well… I left Martha and
the baby in the US and there was a consolation flight from Norfolk to Portland, Oregon that was
�Ryman, Donald
lost and this one Chief Petty Officer lost his whole family on that. So I’m just figuring realized I
didn’t wanna try flying on the consolation across the Atlantic. So they put me on a ship that was
the Everglades that was a Destroyer tender. Well most people don’t know what that is—well
they had all kinds of stuff aboard there. They come up alongside the destroyer and they fix up
their motors and I know one guy who was a Destroyer tender, all he did was work on the night
covers, things like that. Well I was on that and we traveled and that was interesting in one
respect, we got down by Cape Cod—now this was in July of ‘55—and we had fog all around us.
It blotted out the radar. That was the early radar days, one of the things of Junior Officer of the
Deck is to watch that radar and see who is close to us so we wouldn’t run into them. It is
important. Well it blocked out! It just got all white so they stopped the ship and put on the
foghorns there. That’s the best they could do. Does that interest you? Well about a year later a
pastor vessel called the Andrea Dorea going through the same place and I thought he’s gonna
make it into New York regardless; well unfortunately the Stockholm was there too, I think how
that crash happened. Kinda interesting.
INTERVIEWER: Now when you were in the Mediterranean what ports did you stop at?
Well that was the nice thing about it. Barcelona once here, Lisbon, Athens, oh… God.
INTERVIEWER: Well you went to Gibraltar.
Oh there’s real good duty in that respect. I had good duty with the Navy, they have to say, well
Beirut and Lebanon! Beirut at that time was kind of the Paris of the mid-east, nice place. And
something else I had: I was appointed in each port as a foreign claims commission. That was an
officer who had the authority to to pay up to two hundred and fifty dollars in damage to
somebody that sailors had damaged their property, I remember that these guys would get drunk
and break up a taximeter and I remember one case these guys were skylarking around and one
guy threw the other guy’s sailor cap up on awning. Well the other guy climbed up on the awning
to get it and broke the awning. So we paid for a new awning, that sort of thing. Well, everybody
envied that duty because I could get a hotel room like in Lisbon or other places and, you know I
would have to hang around the shortage role headquarters but I did that, yeah. I did that several
times in various ports. I kinda got to like Lisbon, well there were just wonderful restaurants there
and you could get the local cuisine. Well I remember this guy, I think he had been in my class he
was…I don’t know, he was a Bosun, he did the Bosun’s mate training but I was standing
watches with him and he says “Geeze, I don’t like it here I can’t get a hamburger” and you know
“I can’t get a hamburger and a malted milk” and I thought “My god you’re gonna spend the rest
of your life in Pittsburgh! You have a chance to go into all of these restaurants.” Well I guess he
missed out on that, I didn’t. (1:02:16)
INTERVIEWER: Okay, well this tape is about up. (Screen fades to black as tape changes)
�Ryman, Donald
I suppose sooner or later I’ll have to get into the thing.
INTERVIEWER: Alright, okay so let’s see we were kind of closing out your stories about
service time on the Coral Sea, we had been talking some—I guess the last thing we had
been talking about was how one of your fellow officers wasn’t interested in actually the
local cuisines (Ryman agrees) in the port, so you know they didn’t quite get that. Now you
were talking a little bit about Beirut. Beirut was an area that in certain periods of the 50’s
had a lot of political trouble, I think ‘58 or so. But when you were there in ‘55 things were
quiet?
Well, yeah. Of course we didn’t get into local politics but not too much, I do remember an
incident in Beirut. We came in there November 11th, 1954. Well, the Coral S… they didn’t have
a slip or place where we could—they didn’t have a port we could get into with our big ship, so
we had to anchor out. But the destroyers came in and right into the slips. Well, one of the
destroyers, the guys got off and they went immediately to the various houses of ill-repute. Well
we already had a foreign claim when I got on shore—what the story was, there was a sailor—
yeah it was a sailor in one of ‘em—and they set the shore patrol. The houses of ill-repute were
off limits. Well, the shore patrol guy was knocking on the front door so this sailor went running
out the back door, but one of the pimps was standing there and he stepped on his leg and broke it.
Well so, there was a claim for the broken leg. Well… I went out to the hospital to visit this man
who had a broken leg; well, he was a Palestinian. I didn’t know much about Palestinians and
Israel and everything but he claimed to be displaced by Israelis. Now, I don’t wanna get into that
kind of politics, well there was this woman sitting there in this beautiful, nice red satin dress,
well she was a man. So we had this thing “Well, what are you gonna do for this guy, he’s got a
broken leg.” Well, they were gonna check and see if he had rickets. Maybe they could have
operated and fused the leg but it turned out he had rickets and so they sent him off some place
and I guess the US caused it, the US paid for it—well, to have the bone knit but he had a stiff
leg. It didn’t end up very nicely. By that time I was long gone but that was one of my foreign
claims, Beirut. Well I remember Lieutenant Junior Grade Jack Drabkin, he was a Harvard
graduate. He had gotten a supply commission and he was limited in what he could do, he had the
wardroom. He had the officer’s mess in those days but he got hold of a guy, a driver at the
embassy, and we drive around in his truck and he had a limo, well he had a Chevy Suburban as a
matter of fact! And we’d go around to these places where they had belly dancing in Beirut and
that was quite a skilled thing, belly dancing, it was kind of interesting. You know I majored in a
little history in the last thing, I was trying get in as much of the local culture as I could and so
was Murray, I think he majored in history too before I went to law school. But that was an
interesting thing in Beirut. And that was all peaceful, if there was some kind of problem or some
kind of bad thing in the government of Lebanon at that time, we didn’t know about it. (1:07:07)
�Ryman, Donald
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, it was a major crisis in ‘58, but that was well after you were gone.
Yeah, right, yeah yeah. That’s four years later.
INTERVIEWER: Now when you think about the time that you spent on board the carrier,
are there other particular incidents that stand out in your memory that you haven’t talked
about yet?
Lemme think… Oh I remember, the engineering officer on the Coral Sea, Commander Carlton,
he was a senior shore patrol officer of the Mediterranean, a very interesting guy and I worked
with him all the time as a legal officer on the biggest or one of the biggest ships. I remember him
quite well. I remember one afternoon at Genoa and I was talking to him and he said “I was over
here on the Italian lines, I was looking at some of their ships.” he said they ran a real interesting
one, the Andrea Dora. (Ryman laughs) so that was kinda interesting. Well I remember at Athens
he and I went over to, well to the port of Athens and I’m trying to remember the name—
INTERVIEWER: It’s Piraeus.
What?
INTERVIEWER: The Piraeus?
Yeah, the Piraeus! And we had breakfast well that wasn’t too good in the long run I got a greek
thing from that, but he bought my lunch. And I was the foreign claims commission in Athens and
we, I don’t recall that we have any there. Maybe the pimps got out of our way.
INTERVIEWER: Yup.
(Ryman laughs) Well, at Athens I’m trying to think… we were anchored pretty close in to
Piraeus so it wasn’t quite the same situation as in Lebanon.
INTERVIEWER: Well, you’ll think of things after we’re done because that’s how it works.
Yeah, I know! I know.
INTERVIEWER: So basically you have, so what you had done was you had gone originally
to join the Coral Sea and come back to the states, stayed there, and then you’d gone back
with them again and then you sailed back the second time and that was the fog off Cape
Cod and on the way home.
�Ryman, Donald
Yeah, well then that was on the Everglades.
INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yeah, and that was sort of on the way home, so then you basically
were turned back to Norfolk at that point and do you get discharged from there?
Well, yeah. They spent—I spent a couple weeks doing physical exams to be sure I didn’t have
any service related disability.
INTERVIEWER: Right. (1:10:24)
And then yeah they released me to inactive duty.
INTERVIEWER: Okay, and then once you’re out, then what did you do?
Well, I had to get back to Culver, Indiana where Martha was with our baby. And I went to the
railroad and then to the Greyhound, and that was quite interesting. Greyhound had these buses
that ran overnight and they ran from Norfolk to Chicago and they ran right through Culver,
Indiana. Now the trains even in those days you had to change several times from Norfolk. The
problem was getting to the train running east and west and well, you know, what’d they have?
The Broadway Limited but that went through South Bend, you get the PennC trains but to get to
those was kinda involved as I recall. Well so I just bought a bus ticket to Plymouth, Indiana, got
off there, took off my uniform and that was the end of my service. I never put it on again.
INTERVIEWER: Alright, and then how long before you got a job?
Well, it didn’t take me too long. I had written to Harvard Law School about it. Well I had, what I
was talking about being was they had a thing where they had recent graduates who advised the
new students about things and I thought “Well maybe I’d like to do that.” Well, and I had
worked for Professor McGuire and he gave me a good recommendation, and I wrote part of his
case book as a matter of fact and he put in for me but I didn’t get that job. They supplied people
and I hooked up with Smith & Schnacke in Dayton and that took just about a month, and then we
moved to Dayton. Stayed there for two years and then we came here.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. Alright and then how did you wind up leaving Dayton and coming
up here? Were you looking for something better or what happened?
Well… it wasn’t working out in Dayton for various reasons and so they said “Well, you probably
oughta go some place else.” So one of the things I noticed was our big client was Mead
Corporation and if Mead Corporation had a problem the President would go to the Senior Partner
and tell him what the problem was and then he’d come to be, and he didn’t like to be cross-
�Ryman, Donald
examined. So I wouldn’t be quite sure of it, I didn’t think that maybe the traffic manager had the
problem, a legal problem. So it would go up through the president of the company, the CEO of
the company, through the Senior Partner and back down to me. I thought it made more sense if
there was a lawyer working in Mead who could talk to the traffic manager. So I wrote to all
kinds of Fortune 500 corporations and other people and said I was available and said I’d like to
be a lawyer on their legal staff. Well one was Clark Equipment Company. Well I knew Clark, I’d
worked in a factory in World War II and all these Clark forklifts were there. It was in Buchanan,
Michigan. Well, gee, I thought, Buchanan, Michigan… Gee, I didn’t realize that. The truck said
Battle Creek but actually this is where Clark, for all practical purposes, started. And until about
1990 it was a nerve center of Clark. So I wrote here and heard back from the General Counsel
who wrote and said he’d like to meet me, and so I came and met him in Niles and he drove me
over to Buchanan. That’s one of the funniest things. I just got in this town and it seemed to have
magic, and going up the front street here was kinda like the garden district in New Orleans. So,
you know, I’ve got the Buchanan disease and stayed here the rest of my legal career. (1:15:16)
INTERVIEWER: Alright. And now to think back to the time that you spent in the Navy
what do you think you took out of that or how did that affect you?
Well… I think I learned leadership, although as a lawyer in park I wasn’t really leading, but on
the other hand that’s, someone on the general counsel said “Legal and business decisions are
inextricably co-mingled.” So I was able to understand what a businessman was trying to achieve,
but one of the things I was very careful not to get involved in was business decisions, because
you don’t want to. You won’t be objective about it. It’s like the old saying a man that serves as
his own lawyer is a fool for a crime, so I did that. I had a great time, I had a lot of fun, I at one
time had said there’s been an amusement tax and it’s taking up my whole pension. Yeah, I had a
great time being—well here we have Fortune 500 corporations and later up to 154 in a Fortune
500 list at one time, Clark Equipment Company was. But I could walk to work and those I didn’t
want much more. I had a 51 Chevrolet so I don’t know, but I didn’t have to tie up the car and I
could walk to work and all the time I was here as a lawyer. Well we got a guy out at General
Motors who didn’t like it, he wanted to be on that 10th floor or something, he could only be on
the 3rd floor in Buchanan because the zoning code doesn’t allow you to have higher than 3
floors, so he took us to South Bend and actually what happened then was the takeover guys
noticed this. They’d look at us, but they’d say “Oh, well they’re in Buchanan, Michigan. Little
town, if we come try to take them over the people will come at us with pitch forks.” and we
would have! But, so the company got taken over but that’s after I’d retired, I’d hit retirement age.
It was a very interesting company.
INTERVIEWER: Alright. Okay. well you’ve got a pretty good story and certainly an
unusual one.
�Ryman, Donald
Oh yeah, well, thank you.
INTERVIEWER: So I’d just like to thank you very much for sharing it with me.
Oh yeah, yeah yeah, I’m happy to do it.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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Identifier
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RymanD2307V
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Ryman, Donald F.
Date
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2019-05
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Ryman, Donald (Interview transcript and video), 2019
Description
An account of the resource
Donald Ryman was born on April 1, 1928 in Brady Lake, Ohio, into a very mobile family, moving eleven times before settling into East Canton in 1939. Ryman’s father pursued a degree in education in addition to his degree in mechanical engineering, and with the outbreak of the Second World War, his father was finally able to get a job as a mechanical engineer. His mother struggled to acquire food for the family and there was little fuel to use for their car due to stringent wartime rationing. After graduating high school, he attended Ohio State University in June of 1945 with the expectation that he might be drafted into the war. He briefly joined the university’s Army Reserve Officer Training Corps and Ryman graduated from Ohio State in 1948, moving on to Harvard Law School where he encountered financial difficulty and accumulated some debt with the university. In June of 1950, he received several draft notices before enlisting in the Navy. Ryman was then flown to San Francisco, California, for Navy Boot Camp and was later transferred to Newport, Rhode Island, for Navy Officer Candidate School. Ryman finished his training at Newport in July of 1952, was sworn into the Navy Reserves, and was transferred to the Eighth Naval District, headquartered in New Orleans. He was frustrated that New Orleans seemed to be so poorly managed, and by the persistent racial segregation of the South as well as lingering racism in the Navy. Ryman was then assigned to a gasoline tanker vessel out of Norfolk, Virginia, on which he participated in routine deck watches on the bridge and helped refuel destroyers. He was then transferred to the USS Coral Sea, operating primarily in the Mediterranean. After serving aboard the Coral Sea twice in the Mediterranean, Ryman was shipped home on the USS Everglades to Norfolk where he was officially discharged. He then returned to Culver, Indiana, where his wife and baby were living. He eventually moved his family to Dayton, Ohio, and later up to Buchanan, Michigan, where he acquired a job on the legal team of Clark Equipment Company. Reflecting upon his service in the Navy, Ryman held his later experiences with Clark’s legal team in high regard since he appreciated the fact that he could walk to work as well as the success of the business during his tenure.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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video/mp4
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ade9e132fa36898888710358135d8629.mp4
fd90bd5780920385eb90fde8c63b63c4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a2eaba9a6760e2b094cf59d2ed0f5522.pdf
a9172b9d8f95408ed38b1c237b1b205d
PDF Text
Text
Rowland, Daniel
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Iraq War
Interviewee’s Name: Daniel Rowland
Length of Interview: (1:09:57)
Interviewed by: Koty Leroy Rollins
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “I’m here with Daniel Rowland from Comstock Park and the interviewer is
Koty Leroy Rollins of the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. Alright Daniel let’s
just jump into this, when were you born and where at?”
Well I was born in Grand Rapids in 1975, July time frame, at least that’s what my parents told
me, they could be wrong I don’t know.
Interviewer: “You never know. So what was your early life like? What–” (00:57)
Ah pretty mundane, I mean pretty common, went to school, grew up, had an older brother who
liked to, you know be an older brother we’ll just leave it at that. Nothing too exciting.
Interviewer: “Alright, when did you enlist and what led you to that choice?”
My brother had enlisted in the Marine Corps and I’m like “Oh that’s cool.” Then I– The sad fact
was I actually applied for an ROTC scholarship and got a full ride to North Carolina State
University and my lack of discipline led me to drop out and enlist.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you enlisted after spending how much time in college?”
Three semesters, cause apparently if you go to college on the government’s dime and don’t
finish, you owe them money, or you enlist.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “Sounds about right, did your brother like, tell you all these cool stories, did
he prep you for boot camp or anything?”
Nah, he only went in about a year and a half before me, I mean he told me things but in
retrospect I think he was just messing with me.
Interviewer: “What type of things did he tell you then?”
Oh it’s not that hard, it’s fun and you know typical big brother taunting the little brother things as
you follow his footsteps. That makes it not as enjoyable as one would think.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what was boot camp like then were you prepared for it at all?”
In general yeah I mean it’s not– Physically it wasn’t that hard but you know coming from three
semesters in ROTC I kind of already knew the drill of stuff. (2:30) So this is gonna sound self
aggrandizing to a certain extent but like I think it was about two weeks in they made me the
guide for the platoon and I ended up doing that because I already knew a lot of the stuff like
ranks and all that because like I said the three semester in ROTC kind of gave me a head start on
everything that they teach you, common Marine Corps history, Navy ranks, Marine Corps ranks,
how to march, of course that might of been nine years of marching band too but either way– I
was a geek.
Interviewer: “So you were pretty prepared.”
For the general knowledge and physical aptitude but I’m sure as you know being a former Navy
is– No matter how much you know being prepared is not as easy as it sounds especially when
you’re the guide, somebody messes up you get punished.
Interviewer: “And stepping back just a little bit one thing I forgot to ask, did you have any
family history of military or were you and your brother like the first.”
�Rowland, Daniel
I had an uncle serve in Vietnam but he died there and I never knew him so I couldn’t say, and
then my other uncle was in the Air Force for two years but he went to Germany, came home and
he had some pretty weird stories but we won’t go there, Germans are weird apparently.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so it was just you and your brother then for the most part?”
Yeah from the immediate family, nobody– Yeah, nobody else I knew served, I know my dad
tried but got 4Fed cause bad feet or something and then I know my grandpa tried and “We need
you home!” World War II but nobody– Nobody seemed to be able to get in until me and my
brother.
Interviewer: “Fair enough, now when you say 4F you mean like medically.”
Right, yeah between his eyes and his feet I guess they didn’t want him. Back then– They weren’t
as accepting back then of medical– Of any little medical condition where nowadays anybody–
Cause they can fix most things, here have some new shoes. (4:22)
Interviewer: “So going back to the boot camp thing you said you were the guide, was that
like the leader of the cadets or what was that?”
Yeah, I don’t know what did they call it. Yeah it’s you’re the head recruit, I guess you could say
“in charge” but you really weren’t, you were pretty much the top– You’re pretty much who the
drill instructors told to get stuff done and who to delegate.
Interviewer: “And you were the one that got in trouble when someone else messed up.”
Oh yeah, there were mornings I would be up before the rest of the platoon getting thrashed
because someone messed up during the night or something, I don’t know, I don’t remember.
Interviewer: “When you say getting thrashed do you mean like PT or like–”
�Rowland, Daniel
Yeah, no they don’t– They were not allowed physical contact but they could make you run in
place, do push ups, there were four exercises, funnel kicks, push ups, run in place, don’t
remember the fourth one off the top of my head but basically you did it until your arms were
jelly and you couldn’t do anything else.
Interviewer: “And this was in ‘95?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay.”
I’m sure they still kind of do– I mean it was the Marine Corps, you gotta be hard ass I guess
would be the term nowadays.
Interviewer: “So pretty much everything else other than that you were good at, you knew.”
(5:35)
I wouldn’t say “good at” but I knew enough to not have to, you know worry about it, how's that
sound.
Interviewer: “Did you have any issues with the other recruits, I know sometimes they don’t
take–”
Well being the guide yeah sometimes like you’d have the one they just couldn’t get anything
right or was moving too slow and you either had to help them out or get trashed more, I was in
pretty good shape when I got out of boot camp.
Interviewer: “Alright so when– Once you graduated boot camp what did you move onto?”
�Rowland, Daniel
Marine combat training which is three weeks of just basic cause every Marine is a rifleman so
we had to basically go somewhere and spend three weeks in the field and living in tents and
walking through woods, nothing amazing.
Interviewer: “Nothing fun happened there?”
Well one time it rained so hard that we had to come back from out of the field, when we went
back the next day finding all our gear in the mud was fun. Yeah it was out in California, oh joy
oh joy.”
Interviewer: “So it was out in California.”
Yeah it was the one with flashlights, I think it was I don’t know.
Interviewer: “So you– Where did you go to boot camp at?” (6:42)
San Diego, I was a Hollywood Marine as they call it.
Interviewer: “So you went all the way from Michigan to San Diego for boot camp?”
Yep and I came home for ten days, went back out to Camp Pendleton for the combat training.
Interviewer: “Alright, and where’d you go after that?”
Went to North Carolina for my job training, which I was initially an administrative clerk, yay. I
know right I got to learn how to type.
Interviewer: “That’s fun.”
And file things.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “So nothing exciting happened there?”
Well it was kind of fun, my brother was stationed at Camp Lejeune and when everybody else had
to stay on the base when we got there I got to leave for the weekend and it really pissed people
off because, you know reasons and then well I ended up meeting– I ended up getting married at a
job training, I met a female Marine that was going to school as well, let’s just say that didn’t end
well but I’ll just leave that at that.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
What if we’re gonna talk about it might as well just throw it all out there right?
Interviewer: “Hey, it’s your story.”
Then I drove cross country and went to Hawaii for three and a half years. (7:50)
Interviewer: “Why did you have to drive cross country?”
Well I bought– See that was one thing my brother was good for he was a tia– Traffic
management office or whatever, he’s the guy that ships stuff around and when we graduated job
training they’re like “You can only take like two sea bags with you.” And then I asked my
brother and he’s like “Nah man you can ship whatever you want, car or whatever.” So I bought a
car, drove across the country, had it shipped out of San Francisco and went to Hawaii cause I’m
like– Cause you know how they are they want to tell all the new guys “Oh no you can’t do this
or that.” I mean if I was gonna be there for three and a half years I’m gonna have some stuff.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
For some reason cars in Hawaii are way overpriced.
Interviewer: “I can confirm that.”
�Rowland, Daniel
I assume it’s shipping costs.
Interviewer: “That and just everything is expensive in Hawaii that’s just how it goes.”
Oh yeah, it was expensive 20 years ago when I was there I can only imagine today.
Interviewer: “So, where’d you get stationed at in Hawaii?”
Camp Smith, it’s a little ho dunk base right above Pearl Harbor in a residential area, nice view
though I’ll give them that. When you look down you can see Pearl Harbor Hickam Air Force
Base which is right in the middle of Pearl Harbor, it’s pretty nice. There was like– It only had
four barracks on the base and like ten houses, it was commander in chief’s Pacific headquarters
and Marine force Pacific headquarters, it might have been 4 or 500 people stationed there. It was
interesting and small, I don’t know it wasn’t too bad. (9:20)
Interviewer: “And you did what there?”
I was an administrative clerk, I worked in the force adjutant when I first got there doing– But
before everything was electronic we got to actually file all the orders and stuff. So ooh that was
fun, and then I worked down in the classified vault for a couple of years, then ended up in the
security manager’s office doing background checks and all that fun stuff, cause you know
somebody’s gotta do it. So a nice wide array of things, went to Korea a couple times for
exercises, got to go to Seoul and Joseon and, you know, see other countries and have some fun.
Interviewer: “And what time frame did you go to Korea?”
‘96, ‘97, they were only for like a month or two each time, it wasn’t– Just some little exercises to
annoy the North Koreans I guess.
Interviewer: “Were you on like ships there or were you–”
�Rowland, Daniel
No we’d fly over and then work in some office, in some base, I don’t remember. The one time
we were in the Korean Marine Corps Base living in GP tents on their dirt soccer field in the
middle of summer and it gets hot over there and to boot the plumbing doesn't take toilet paper
well, yeah you’ve never been to Korea have you?
Interviewer: “I’ve been but–”
And when you wipe you throw it in the trash can next to the toilet and then they would take it out
and burn it. Well we were right downwind from the burn pit, so needless to say that one of my
times in Korea was not the most fun.
Interviewer: “So were you feeling some animosity from the South Koreans or was this just
all by…”
No, that's just the way they did it, I mean they had space– Because their little headquarters was
like on a hill so any flat land you could get was amazing, so we just happened to be right
downwind from the burn pit. (11:07)
Interviewer: “That’s unfortunate.”
Oh yeah cause we had to walk through the bulk of it on our way to chow so by the time you got
there– It was a great dieting technique I guess, you didn’t have to feel the urge to eat.
Interviewer: “So were you working like hand in hand with the South Koreans?”
They were just joint exercises, I mean we were the command element so we didn’t actually go
out and do stuff we were just doing like the fake information would come in and then we would
process it and then disseminate down to lower command of guys actually doing stuff, so nothing
amazing.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “And were you like sitting with generals and doing all this or were you just
like sitting in a little tent typing on a thing.”
Well I was representing the security manager so I basically was the guy running around
shredding classified material, nothing too pressing. Yeah my job was not– It sounds all nice but
it’s not as glamorous as one might think.
Interviewer: “Were you like– Did you not enjoy this job? I’m assuming you didn’t sign up
with the Marines to be a clerk.”
When I signed up they gave me one of those job option packages that was air field service
support, so like air traffic control or something, it was legal clerk or administrative clerk. So I’m
like– I was fine with two of them but not the third and I’m sure you can guess which one I got
because I’m like “Woah, hey legal clerk and air traffic controller that sounds kind of fun.” And
based on my scores I’m like– Admin is like, out of three, the dumbest people go to admin and I
don’t know why but whatever, I’m not gonna complain, needs of the Marine Corps. (12:43)
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
So I got stuck there.
Interviewer: “So your time in Hawaii was pretty uneventful?”
Yeah for the most part, I went to school, I was there because, you know– Of course when I
dropped out of college the first time you know my dad’s like “Oh you’re never gonna finish
now!” So I had to prove him wrong cause I’m just that stubborn.
Interviewer: “What did you get your degree in?”
Associate’s in business and a bachelor’s in social work and then spent my last year, got divorced
while I was there too, let’s just say as a single guy with a year left on the island I had some fun
�Rowland, Daniel
but we won’t go into that because this is a family program apparently and then I got out in–
Went on a terminal leave in ‘98 and came home and got out, went to the IRR, individual ready
reserve and hung out for a while.
Interviewer: “Okay, and–”
I’m just gonna roll into the next part I assume.
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
So employment was like I was trying to– I guess I think of that time that’s when they actually
changed– In Michigan it was weird, you only needed a bachelor’s of social work to work in the
field and then they changed it master’s degree and all that stuff so I’m like– Needless to say
trying to get a job in the field I wanted wasn’t that great so during that time as a reserve Marine I
could volunteer to do active duty every now and then. (14:05) I went a couple places just for like
oh we need somebody here for a month or a month there so I dabbled around and then in 2001
there was an opportunity to go down to North Carolina for six months and I’m like “Okay, I’ll go
down there.” So I signed up and they flew me down and needless to say you know in September
stuff happened and at that time then we went over to– Well I didn’t go but the military went to
Afghanistan and since I was there it was– I volunteered for six months and then since I was there
when 9/11 happened they started calling up all the reserves like “Well while you’re here, here’s
some orders to stay another year.” And then I was officially involuntarily recalled and for the
next– Till 2004, every year I would get additional orders to stay another year, so I was basically
involuntarily activated for two years.
Interviewer: “And how did you feel about that, were you upset?”
I was fine, it’s not like I had a job back home I’m like “Well hey” and yeah when I got there I
was working at– I was originally working for the Marine reserve unit out of Lejeune and then I
got moved up to the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force Command Element cause a guy I worked
with in Hawaii he’s a colonel now and he’s like “Oh you’re here.” I’m like “Oh, how are you
�Rowland, Daniel
doing?” Cause as you know the military’s actually kind of small, especially the Marine Corps, so
having worked in the security manager’s office in Hawaii he stuck me in the security manager’s
office in Lejeune so– Because they were just starting the office so I’m like “Okay” and by that
time I was a corporal and I basically got to set that up. So that was fun, learning– Basically doing
my old job again which was kind of weird because as an administrative clerk you can work in
pretty much any– You can work with any unit, every unit rated an administrative clerk, you
know they say you do 30 years you don’t do the same job twice so but apparently I got stuck in
the same job again, but you know it pays off in the end.
Interviewer: “So when you were recalled– Or not recalled but when you went down to
North Carolina for the six months was the to do administrative work or were you doing
something else?”
Well yeah I was– They were– They were just, from my understanding I don’t know for sure,
they were– What was it called it was like the Marine augmentation command element, basically
it’s where a bunch of reserve guys, like older higher ranking guys that are retired and were still
reserve. (16:37) It’s like if the command element ever went to war these guys would get called
up to fill in key positions back in the rear. So they were just setting up and they just needed
people to come down and help them set up their infrastructure and stuff so I’m like “Oh, okay.”
Six months, I’d be doing admin stuff no big deal, I needed a job, they needed Marines, I’ll just
go and then like I said 9/11 happened and stuff just got real and you know I was cheap to call up
because I was already there.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
And so, then what happened? I don’t know, that was 2001, 2002, then I was dumb and got
married again in 2003. Yeah I got married in February of 2003, they’d just gone over to invade
Iraq in December and my office sent a Marine who apparently doesn’t know how to jump, got
injured getting off a helicopter and they’re like “Oh hey, you’re going over to replace him in
deployment.” I’m like “Okay.” So after being married three weeks I got whisked away to Iraq for
2003 and I worked with the– Well I guess it’d be more commonly called Task Force Tarawa the
�Rowland, Daniel
2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade and when I got to them in March it was the Battle of
Nasiriyah and I was tasked as the assistant security manager of the– Basically the tent where the
general and all his command stuff were and to got over sea this little security element we had and
all this other fun stuff– Oh yeah I was a sergeant by then too, and I would stay there for the next
seven years, we’ll get into that later.
Interviewer: “When you say stay there you mean stay a sergeant, not stay.”
Right, yeah. Yeah not in Iraq, though I was there enough I should’ve bought a summer home. So
yeah just to gloss my own ego more I was a meritorious sergeant yeah.
Interviewer: “Oh okay.”
That’s for the record, because I was such an outstanding jarhead.
Interviewer: “Not astounding enough to be an E6 but–” (18:37)
Oh no but they give E5 and unders away as like candy, like “Oh here, get promoted.” So I was
over there and got in some– Because we were responsible for the bulk of the forces, the Army,
and the 1st Marine Division, went up through Saudi and went north– West and then swung
around to Baghdad, we were supposedly tasked with mop up operations, heading in right south
of Baghdad and then swinging east. So we had all these little small towns and crap but Nasiriyah
was the worst fighting of the invasion. I was not actually in the fight but we were right behind
them, you know command element we basically tell everyone what to do and you could see all
the crap coming back and all the casualties,this, that. I mean it’s not– Nowhere near like a World
War II or Vietnam scenario I think our casualties were only like 100 or less if you do MIAK– Or
wounded and killed so the WAK, I don’t know we gotta work on our acronyms, there’s so many
of them I don’t know.
Interviewer: “So you never saw any of the actual fighting, no one ever attacked the
command element?”
�Rowland, Daniel
Well you could hear and when you went outside you could see cause a lot of it was at night you
could see the, like the artillery, the LAV, the tanks. So the fire fights and stuff because we were
just on the other side of– There’s a river that runs by the bridges and we were on the back end of
it and we could kind of see down you could like see it all going on. So not the same as being
obviously in it so I can’t make any grandiose claims like that but anyway after that then we
moved on. We ended up in some old Iraqi air base by Al Kut, hung out there for a couple months
after the invasion ended, sweat a lot because the desert’s hot in the summer.
Interviewer: “I had no idea.”
Really? You learn something new everyday.
Interviewer: “Exactly.”
And then came home. (20:33)
Interviewer: “So during the actual fighting I’m assuming you weren’t working on security
clearances and that sort of thing.”
No I mean most of it there, most of my job at the end of the day was just making sure the area
was secure, people that came and went had clearances, we didn’t actually process– clearances
were for the rear, you showed up you either had it or you didn’t so it’s nothing amazing. Though
I did get to see how things happened at a command level, you know it was like the fly on the
wall I just like walk in the tent and see everybody doing their jobs like the three shop who is
operations and then all the other guys are like “Oh we need this, we need that, tell them to do
this.” You know like you see war movies and you just see the soldiers are out fighting but you
know actually seeing the puppet masters I guess you’d call them, cause you know if you’re the
down on the front line fighting, you know you just go where you’re told, but seeing how they
make those decisions at the higher level I guess was pretty good for an experience level.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “Did you ever have any issues with officers?”
Who doesn’t? No, no not at that time really it was actually– Again the Marine Corps would end
up being small again later on in my career but no at the time no. Well everybody’s so focused on
the job at hand which is, you know war which is kind of why we exist then, you know personal
animosities between each other. Though there was one captain, he was the general’s aide to
camp and he was kind of a douchebag.
Interviewer: “What did he do?”
No he was just a dick.
Interviewer: “Oh, fair enough.”
Well because you know here’s the general making all the decisions and this is basically his
lackey, carry my briefcase and crap. (22:05) So he had nothing else to do but harass us, there
was me, the general’s terp and his driver and we assumed he was crap for no reason. He’s like
“Oh, you know you need a haircut.” And I’m like– Right, right.
Interviewer: “We are at war.”
There are some people, no matter what you’re doing, that want to stick to military protocol like
it’s gonna be the end of the world if you don’t.
Interviewer: “Got it.”
I mean we’re talking about a guy– So like we’re in a town trying to take it over and stuff and he
would find some Iraqi out in town to like, press his camis and pay them like a couple bucks.
Interviewer: “Wow.”
�Rowland, Daniel
Yeah, this– Don’t get me started on it there’s just some people that are like, what? I mean we
were in MOP gear for like over a month, the– I forgot the actual acronym, the biological weapon
cause we were still “Oh he’s got a WMD.” You know so we had on this mop gear for over 30
days, no– I mean we were invading, no showers no– You know baby wipes became our friends.
So we were pretty nasty so like I didn’t get a haircut, really? But anyway that’s– He annoyed me
but that was about it.
Interviewer: “So when you were over in Iraq, other than the administrative work, you
know what did you do after the invasion?”
We sat around for– Cause the invasion was late March, early April and we were there till like the
beginning of July, end of June and we just sat there, that was it. I mean you’re not– I mean
because they’re still having to figure out what they’re gonna do with the country and we’re just
like– We’re hanging out and doing nothing, played lots of spades. (23:48)
Interviewer: “After that what happened, when did you leave?”
We got back on the ships– See they went over in December on the ships and then I, like I said, I
flew over mid deployment and then we had to take the ships back so that was fun, but I got on
the boat and took the longest shower of my life, maybe, but it was nice and then we got to float
home. Yeah, stopped in Lisbon on the way, that was fun.
Interviewer: “What ship were you on?”
The– Was it the Nassau? Yeah I think it was the Nassau, we had the Nassau, the Kearsarge, and I
forget the third ship in our little fleet but it was a hootenanny. Got to go through the Suez canal
and man the guns, hey we’re jarheads what else we got to do right?
Interviewer: “I’m assuming nothing tried to attack you.”
�Rowland, Daniel
No, that’s standard protocol when you’re going through the canals and the stuff is to man the
guns on the side. So whatever but got to go past the rocket gibraltar, that was fun looking, I guess
that you– There’s– I mean you know you’re Navy, all the little weird things like the shell back or
if you cross the equator and this, we got one for going through the city waters and ooh.
Interviewer: “So the military traditions where they kind of haze you and you get a little
reward afterwards.”
Not for that one, you just got it for going through the Suez and the Med, yeah I’ve heard of some
of the things they do and sea bats and all that, we’ll leave that for you to explain for the people to
hear.
Interviewer: “Shell backs a whole different beast.”
No you never heard of the– “Hey we got a sea bat under that container.” And then you go–
Never mind. (25:24)
Interviewer: “Yeah the old, the hazing techniques to make you go just waste your time.”
[overlapping chatter] Hundred yards of flight line I got.
Interviewer: “Go wait for the mail buey, that sort of thing.”
Hey, get me some blinker fluid. No? Okay, keys in the humvee.
Interviewer: “So the Navy was kind of messing with you guys a little bit.”
Well– But that was it though and man I tell you what the Navy cooks are actually pretty good, I
don’t know. Well compared to eating MREs for three months I guess anything was good.
Interviewer: “So after–”
�Rowland, Daniel
And so I get back and, you know that’s it for– So by then I’m married, got a kid on the way, and
I’m still on involuntary order so I’m like “Well, I should probably go.” Cause by this time I had
almost seven years and I’m like “Oh maybe I should go back to active duty.” and that took a year
cause recruiters suck.
Interviewer: “So where were you at for this year? Were you just–”
I was– No I was still recalled reservist back at my old job at Camp Lejeune and that’s when I got
my Navy achievement medal and all the other crap for a job I didn’t even know what I did and
they give them out like candy so like “Oh hey everybody gets one” unless you’re infantry, then
you don’t get anything. So then I try to come back in, takes them a year, I tried going officer too,
that didn’t pan out I don’t know. So apparently– Well whatever, so then I go back then they let
me back in in June of 2004 and I tried going back in as an intelligence analyst because I’m like
I’ve already got the clearance. (26:57) I mean I kinda needed high clearance for my old job and
then I figured– They made me retake the ASVAB and scored perfect and I’m like “Oh okay, I
can get in, this is no problem.” They’re like “Oh, we want you back in but only as infantry.” I’m
like “What?” “It’s the only thing we have open.” So of course I took it cause I got a kid on the
way, I’m marrying, and I gotta provide for my family and then I come to find out later there was
still like openings for the intelligence. Apparently recruiters even treat Marines like 17 year olds
and just meet their quotas, I don’t know but I’m still a little bitter about that.
Interviewer: “That’s understandable. So when–”
I had two college degrees and a 99 on the ASVAB and a top secret clearance, I was like “Why
couldn’t I get the job?” Anyway.
Interviewer: “That is a bit on the ridiculous side.”
So I guess I went in as one of the smaller grunts, that was– Yeah June of 2004, I got to my unit
in August of 2004 2nd Battalion, 6th Marines, 2nd Marine division blah blah and then they stuck
�Rowland, Daniel
me in weapons company. I was going to become an anti armor assault man, 0352 basically we
shoot rockets at tank and at that time they told me “Oh they just got rid of on the job training.”
Which means you could like work work with a unit for six months and get your new job
designation. “So you have to go back to training.” So I’m a sergeant with seven years in and they
sent me to basically back to combat training with a fricken 18 and 18 year old privates.
Interviewer: “That sounds fun.”
Oh it was hootenanny, it wasn’t really that bad there were two corporals over there too and the
instructors pretty much let us like not do all the dumb crap.
Interviewer: “They knew you knew essentially.”
Well considering I outanked most of my instructors I was like, okay you know– Like you know
like no cell phones or no smoking for the privates but then we go hang out with the instructors
behind the buildings and call our wives and smoke cigarettes cause if it wasn’t anything
essential, like especially the first three weeks were basically a rehash of combat training and then
the last four weeks you break up into your specific jobs, they train all the infantry there. (29:05)
So we just went to class and then graduated and went back to our units, it was still fun though,
and that’s when I found out I lost all my time in grade as a sergeant. Yeah I was promoted June
2003 to sergeant, was it? No, 2002 and then when I came back to active duty they reset my date
of rank, which being in the military one of the important parts of getting promoted was time in
grade. So you have to be a certain rank so long before you’re even eligible for the next rank, so I
lost like two and half years' time in grade, that was fun.
Interviewer: “And you couldn’t fight that at all?”
No, even though I was involuntarily activated, that comes in later, this is a big whine fest I think.
So I graduate in October ‘04, go to my unit and then the next– What was it? Yeah it was the next
October, October ‘05 but in that time they send me to sergeants course, some counter terroism
course, all these frickin courses cause apparently they thought I was smart or something, and
�Rowland, Daniel
then October ‘05 we head over to Fallujah, Iraq this was after the push through I think it was
Phantom Fury is what is was called. We’re the first unit to take over the area after the push
through, and at the time I’m like “Oh, I’m gonna be a platoon sergeant.” Because you know I’m
a sergeant and then they’re like “Nope, you’re going to headquarters company.” “What?” And
then they stick me in an entry control point in the middle of Fallujah, basically the city was– I
don’t want to say quarantined or blockade, but to get in the city you had to go through one of six
checkpoints, you know they had to search you, we had a little vehicle. All these, you know kind
of like the TSA but you know not as stupid, so I got stuck there for the deployment. Nothing too
exciting, I had a little satellite outpost where we did commercial traffic, semis and crap, we got
into a fire fight a couple of times because we’re like right on the main highway and right behind
us was like this big gully, I don’t even know. So somebody could just like walk into the city
through it if they were somewhat evasive and they’d walk up and take pot shots at us and that
was not as exciting as it sounds cause you’re on– We did 24 on, 24 off so you’d be bored most of
the time “Ooh search the– Search the big truck full of stones!” We had the long like rebars we
had to stick in their and we’re looking for bombs or something, I don’t know, and then pretty
quiet till March of ‘06. (31:37) Then our main checkpoint got blown up from one of those orange
dump trucks, google it you’ll see them, and somebody decided to blow it up and we only lost one
Marine and a couple of Iraqi guys because we had the Iraqi army and police working with us too,
about 30 wounded because the concrete barriers they like to use like to turn into microscopic
shrapnel, once you have you know a couple thousands of pounds of explosives go off next to it.
So then a couple days all the guys would have the fragments in them from the explosion, started
becoming sick their body was rejecting it, but since I was at the little satellite outposts I went
over– Cause the explosion was– So we were 600 yards from them and it knocked me on my ass,
that’s how big the explosion was and then I got to go over there with some of the Iraqi guys and
it was just like the little building, everything was just knocked the hell down but most of the–
And I don’t– Did they over teach you OPSEC? I assume they teach you OPSEC when you’re in,
you know like if you travel change your routes and stuff. Well our brilliant bosses every day at
the same time was the changeover, when the one team would come out and go off so after six
months of doing the same thing every day they knew when to hit us. So needless to say it was
kind of– And I pointed this out months before but you know I was just an E5 what did I know?
It’s not like seven years being in a security office going to, you know, the naval criminal
�Rowland, Daniel
investigation security managers course, the DSS security managers course, I got certificates a
mile long but no, I didn’t know nothing. Being a security manager for the invasion for a general,
no what did I know cause– I’m gonna try, you know those clover leaves when you get on the
highway, they like wrap around, we were like right in the middle of one so when somebody hits
the on ramp they can look down and it was just– This is something a frickin moron should be
able to look at and be like “That doesn’t seem that secure with the on ramp open.” So whatever,
so I started building an animosity towards officers, more so after that because you know when
they don’t listen it’s like “Really?” But anyways that’s besides the point, and that was the first
time I lost somebody under my command so– Cause technically I was second in charge of that
unit, I had an E7 and then me and then we had like 15 guys under us or whatever so still a little
haunted by that, anyway [unintelligible]
Interviewer: “So stepping back a little bit when it comes to working with the Iraqi police
and–”
Yeah they were pretty good, nothing weird about them just dudes trying to make a living.
Interviewer: “You didn’t worry at all that they might be with any of these groups?” (34:28)
Not at that time, cause we’re talking a couple years after– They, I guess the local government
they had a pretty good way of vetting you know I mean I never had a problem with them. Hell
usually when we closed down the post we’d go– Cause we had a little trailer and these guys, I
don’t know if you ever saw the big shipping containers, they would basically– They built bunk
beds and stuff in there for them because those guys were out there for like a month, they
weren’t– Like after 24 hours we go back to our little base, have our nice little beds and these
poor guys are out there but we’d go in there and we’d smoke hookahs with them and have some
tea, play cards, whatever you know just dudes. They were some– Well let’s just say they loved
cellphones too because they would show some nasty– They’re just red blooded dudes like
anybody else man, they were just trying to make a living to support their families. So for the
most part, no I never had to worry about them, plus yeah I’d also gone through an Arabic course
�Rowland, Daniel
I can even speak the conversational toddler so that was fun too. That’s the way I look at it, I was
never that great at it.
Interviewer: “Did any of the guys under your command have any issues with them like
pick fights with them or anything?”
No, I think initially some guys were worried but after a month or two you find out they’re just
regular guys and there’s nothing bad about them. Which is I guess counterintuitive from what
people have been told but like a lot of guys that would even put the bombs on the side of the road
it’s not like they were fundamentalist terrorists, someone’s like “Hey, here’s a couple hundred
dollars go put this–” But this is the point where they were stop setting them off themselves, it
was the ones where, well the full term would be victim actuated improvised explosive devices,
pretty much like imagine a pressure plate and when you drove over it it would complete the
circuit and blow up. So some of these guys would go and just set them up and the ones that we
would caught they’re not terrorist or anything they’re just like “Oh hey someone paid me X
amount of dollars to do this.” (36:22)
Interviewer: “And what would– Did you ever catch any of these guys yourself?”
Well I mean we didn’t other like units, we were pretty stationary so we weren’t even mobile but
from what I heard a lot of the ones they did catch in the act they were just doing it cause they
were paid, because you know that– During that period of time you know that was before the full
rebuilding effort, it was hard man I could imagine a guy “Hey I need to get food for my family.”
Here a dude “Here’s some money man go put this over by the road.” “Okay.” So it’s– I wish it
was as clean cut as that, oh here’s a bad guy shoot him, but is he a bad guy or just someone down
on his luck, I don’t know. It’s very– It’s always a lot more complicated than people make it out
to be in the media, but anyway but at the end of that then we came home in April of ‘06 and we
did what Marines do, you know run a lot, train a lot, and get ready to go back over the next year
so then we went back in October– I’m sorry April of ‘07. That was the standard fair, go for
seven, eight months, come home for eight or nine and then go back over but eight or nine at
�Rowland, Daniel
home wasn’t– You weren’t home, we had to go to California for a month or two, then we had to
go to Virginia, all this training, go in the field every other week it seemed like, train train train.
Interviewer: “Now going back to the orange dump truck, did you guys– Did that at least
spark some change?”
Not really.
Interviewer: “Like did you guys move the security point at that point, better off site?”
No they had it rebuilt within 24 hours, they closed the on ramp, that was it. We were gone within
a month so nobody seemed to care.
Interviewer: “Okay, and–”
The prevailing attitude is if you’re a lower rank you’re expendable, I mean that’s the– (38:08)
Let’s call it what it is, your job is to die for the cause and if you do they’ll just “Hey, we got guys
back at the base we’ll just fill in the roster.” Cause that’s all they did, when everybody got his I
think four or five of us out of 30 people between the two crews, like three or four of us stayed
out there and they just replaced them with a bunch of other dudes, it was like we didn’t miss a
beat, you know can’t stop operations man, mission accomplishment and all that crap. So yeah
they closed down the ramp, engineers rebuilt the place in like a couple of hours and hey we’re up
and running again. Military efficiency, whooo! I mean that’s just the way it works man, which I
understand but then it seems like the lack of– I understand that you have to do what you have to
do, I get that but then it seems like even afterwards when you do have time to breathe, no one
else really seems to give a crap, is that? Now obviously in old school conventional wars when
you had to push through, push through yeah you didn’t have time and I get that but like what we
were doing, out of seven months you know six and a half of it was pretty damn boring. So
needless to say we– You know but there’s always downtime especially when we’re home within
a month it’s like, okay thanks for not giving a shit.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “So, you went home, you did your year of training.”
Yeah and then we went back, this time I actually was a platoon sergeant and I got my own 24
guys, six we were a mobile assault platoon, five gun trucks in a high back, basically a pickup
truck with big walls and we got to travel around and try to find interesting people and shoot
them. So that was a hoot but things are really quieted down by that compared to the last time, I
think the first time I was in Fallujah everything was blowing up and there were roadside bombs
like every five feet it seemed like but the second time it was actually pretty quiet.
Interviewer: “Were you again near Fallujah?”
We were in the same exact spot.
Interviewer: “Same on ramp and everything?” (40:10)
Well no that was entry control point, this time I was actually with the weapons company with an
actual mobile assault platoon but I mean we were on the same forward operating base, some of
us were sleeping in the same beds we were a year before. We were exactly back, the only
difference was the first time we were there the city was like divided up into three areas and all
these different units had a different area of responsibility. When we went back we had the whole
city to ourselves, it had calmed down that much, so we’re like “Okay” and for the most part, like
I think the first time we were there we lost ten or 12 guys maybe, there was actually a sniper out
there in January too when we were there, he killed a couple guys, mostly Iraqi police, Iraqi army.
I think we lost a couple guys and so we had– So we lost about ten to 15 guys and I think we had
about 20 wounded, the second time we were there I think we lost two, maybe three, but one of
them was a– We were there like not even a week and some engineer that had been attached to
our unit, new guy, went to a porta chuter and offed himself.
Interviewer: “Jeez.”
�Rowland, Daniel
Not– And then another one some dude was driving down the road really fast and his humvee hit
a dune and the guy got thrown out the back and killed, so two of our KIAs were through
accidents or self-inflicted injuries. So I guess you don’t count those when you’re talking killed in
action which is normally enemies but this time no.
Interviewer: “I mean it’s still people dying.”
I understand the sympathy from regular but when you’re in that scenario it’s like– Well one died
cause they were stupid like don’t speed in your humvee down the road, you know so he was a
casualty of stupid and the other was, you know I guess he got there and he couldn’t hack it, we
had only been there a week. So is it sad? Yes but can I feel sympathy towards him? Not really, I
mean if you don’t want to go I understand that but like we had guys that were more creative, they
were like self inflicting injuries before we left like dropping weights on their feet and breaking
their feet. Oh that’s fine, then you get charged for malingering but still you don’t have to go.
Interviewer: “I mean–” (42:22)
I’m just saying if you don’t want to go to Iraq there’s things you can do before we even leave
where you’re not offing yourself, I’m just saying callous but when you’ve been over the multiple
times and you’ve seen your friends die from enemy action and crap, it’s hard to feel sympathy
for other people, like you knew what you were getting into when you signed up especially in
2007, 2008 I mean we’d already been at war for like six, seven years it’s like if you signed the
dotted line and didn’t think you were going why’d you sing up? It’s not like they were drafted it
was still all volunteer force, it sounds cold but given the circumstances you probably know what
you’re getting into, and besides he was like a– He was a motor team mechanic or an engineer it’s
not like they ever left the base, again not trying to be a dick but you know from my perspective
it’s like oh I gotta go out into town two, three times a day and potentially get shot at and you’re
sitting here, you know on the base really not doing anything, and by then we had a nice chow
hall, I mean like salad bar, sandwich bar nice even brought in the guys from Indy to work it for
us, it was pretty swank.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “So when you were going out and, you know as you said it, searching for
interesting people to meet and shoot did you have a lot of action?”
Not as much as one would think but it seemed the other units–Or the other platoons always got
the fun stuff, hell it was our first week, we got there and then we ripped with the unit we were
replacing which is like ride along, riding along, basically like they go out and then like your
leaders will ride with them and then you’ll slowly phase in your guys and replace theirs. I think it
was about the second week we’re driving down the road and we get called to go to an incident
and somebody had been driving on the road, some idiot and I use these terms with endearment,
had an accident in the convoy and wandered off onto a dirt road and gotten belly shotted. By this
time the insurgent tactics had moved to burying IEDs in the road so, you know general protocol
was don’t drive down dirt roads. Well somebody did and belly shotted a humvee and we got to
go clean it up.
Interviewer: “By that you mean they drove over it and the bomb went off under?” (44:47)
Yeah the– If I was– Me standing in the blast like my head stuck up, I don’t know if they buried it
that deep or it was the explosion cause I mean I don’t even know what ammunition they used we
were just there for clean up. So most time you think the 155 shells or whatever, you know where
the charge could blow up but this could’ve been one the blew up and down and made the hole
deeper, I don’t know, but yeah we got to pick up a couple guys in ziploc bags, take them to the
main base morgue, and I think half of our guys were like new, so we kind of like left them over
the road while we collected things and them brought them back but like it was– It was just
sloppy, it always seemed– Cause as a mobile assault platoon we were more– We were too fast
for like them to just sit down and ambushes, that’d be more for like the foot patrols. We were
more reactionary so we always showed up when things were going on or just finished that was
kind of our job, or to project a military presence.
Interviewer: “Basically you would go around.”
�Rowland, Daniel
Is that the correct term that they use, or projecting force, I don’t know. So and then another time,
this one’s funny, we had a– There was a big intersection of Fallujah and the Iraqi police, I don’t
even like know stoplights, they made like this little plywood– I’m trying to think of what you–
You know just imagine like a little plywood like tool booth if you would, a little bigger with a
roof on it and surrounded by sandbags and you know they’re out there directing traffic or
whatever and somebody takes– I guess sidestep, our commander, the battalion commander, they
basically more effectively cinched off the city to prevent you know ammunition and bombs
coming in. So– And it worked because eventually the insurgents in the city started making their
own, it was some yellow powder I don’t remember, but anyway this little bongo truck– It looks
like a roller skate, just google bongo truck and you’ll see they’re ridiculously small, this thing
was loaded with barrels of this explosive and he’s rolling down the road, runs into this Iraqi
police post and detonates. Now the one thing apparently insurgents can’t do is make their own
explosives, so the stuff in the cab went off, nothing else did. So he hits this little post of these
guys, I think one dude ended up breaking his leg just from the force of the impact but that was it.
(47:23) We get called up and we gotta cordon off the area and secure it, cause you know it’s still
explosive, so we’re just sitting there looking at this little blue bongo truck and inside the cab it’s
just messy because the guy managed to blow himself up and it’s just, you know guts and gore
over the– All over the windows and of course we found it hilarious, it’s like if you’re gonna die
for the cause fine but you know i expect you want to take more than just yourself with you. Of
course the downside is all this stuff spilled over the road, we had to wait for explosives ordnance
guys to come out and clean it up and I think we spent like 12 hours out there it was so boring.
One time like a dog runs by and runs away with a guy’s hand and yeah go ahead and laugh it
was– Now at this point you’re in country a few months, you’re just bored, you’re just laughing
so hard cause they open the door to try to, you know check the detonation device and all that
other stuff and it’s– So yeah we had fun too.
Interviewer: “Were you still on pretty good terms with the Iraqi police and military
there?”
Yeah I mean they were– Well I mean the police are from the area, the Iraqi army would normally
be from a different part of the country cause I guess you’d look at it like– If you think back to the
�Rowland, Daniel
Civil War they’d have like, you know the Michigan whatever unit, they’re all from the same
town wherever, and that’s the way the Iraqi army was. So– And they would bring in guys from a
different part of the country because they didn’t know anyone locally but the Iraqi police were
local. Yeah they were pretty good guys, no problems there I mean–
Interviewer: “What about the civilians?”
You know what they’re just people trying to live their lives man, for the most part they just did
what they did and we just went around. I mean it comes to this, if you weren’t dicks to them or
you weren’t, you know if you weren’t overly– If you just treat them like people you got along
fine, you know there’s a lot of– I’m sure we’ve all heard stories of the military that were over
there and like being over dickish, I don’t know if it was just because the Middle Easterners in
general were dehumanized or because they were just– I mean I don’t know but no they were just
regular people. Hell we would normally stop for– Grab lunch from a little place down on– I
mean we name the streets after like– I mean you can’t pronounce Iraqi but like north to south–
Yeah north to south had female names and east to west had male names but like the main drag
was called [sounds like “Frayen”] and there’s a little guy running a kebab shop there and we’d
pop in and get some lunch every couple of days whenever we’re around. (50:03) He was a nice
guy, give him money, we get food and it was pretty good food, jeez wonder if there’s any good
kebab shops around here, anyway– Hey man.
Interviewer: “Now you’ve got me wanting kebabs.”
I know right cause, you know what cause the stuff was fresh like right next door was an actual
butcher’s shop. I mean all our stuff is processed as hell, and here you are, you know you pull up
to the kebab shop, you hear the cows and goats mooing next door like okay I guess it’s fresh.
Interviewer: “So you didn’t ever really worry that one of these guys is gonna attack you or
anything?”
�Rowland, Daniel
It comes down to two mindsets, you can either– If you’re gonna worry about it you’re gonna
worry all the time and you’re just gonna go crazy or you’re gonna be so hyper tense all the time
you’ll snap, or you’re just like if it happens it happens, you know if you’re comfortable in your
training– I mean they call it muscle memory when you do something enough but it also applies
to other things like if you hear a gunshot or you hear an explosion you should instinctively know
how to react and if you trust that training, then you just don’t worry about it. I mean you’re
worried but you’re not– You know, otherwise you’re that paranoid guy who thinks the FBI is
listening to his thoughts through the, you know dentures in his mouth and that’s not a good way
to go or you’re– It’s gonna be a long ass seven months, he just eventually if it happens it
happens.
Interviewer: “Were you guys ever ambushed?”
Directly no, I mean we had a couple IEDs once, nothing huge like I hit one and blew out the tire
I think was unconscious a couple minutes but by then we had the new humvees like the doors
were like thicker and all this crap. So it like scratched the paint cause it was– Because it was
where we were driving on the main street and we would like go down to one end of the city and
come back, it really wasn’t that big but we went down and by the time we came back apparently
somebody put it there. (52:00) I mean it wasn’t like hey cause we drove and then we turned
around and came back driving the same path that we did and then drove over it and it blew. So
it’s like somebody– It’s like when you’re watching T.V and somebody throws out those little
spike strips that the cops do, that’s how quick he must have done it because it was right next to
an open field. So the guy must have sprinted out– After we drove by the first time must have
sprinted out, dropped it, ran back, I don’t know it was weird.
Interviewer: “And no one got injured in that cause of the–”
No, we blew like two or three tires on the humvee but we just pulled into one of our little bases,
swapped them out, and on our way again. Nice and quick, nice and painless, that deployment
was actually pretty laid back except for, you know stupid lieutenants but, you know. Oh my
lieutenant was an idiot, oh I know I have to explain it.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “Yeah– I mean you don’t have to but–”
He’s the kind of guy– Like we go out and do two or three patrols a day, and he would “Okay”
show up 45 minutes early to our staging area and then he pulled out the map and he’d be
pointing “This is the route–” We would get objectives, like “Oh, we want you to check this spot,
this spot, this spot by the command– By the head shed.” And then he would map out all the
directions and we’re like “Why don’t we just go as long as we make all our checkpoint?” And he
started like “Oh let’s drive down this road, this road.” “Those are dirt roads.” You know hey
didn’t we first learn this lesson when we got in the country, and then– So I was the kind of guy I
would tell my lead truck guy like– Cause all of my vehicle commanders had been there before,
this like I said this is their second time in Fallujah and I’m like “Yeah just as long as we’re
making the checkpoints drive however you want to get there.” That created a lot of tension
between me and the lieutenant, I didn’t give a crap because I don’t want to get belly shotted. We
saw how this works, so screw him, and he was one of the pretentious assholes, pardon my
language.
Interviewer: “Did he try to get back at you for this?” (53:57)
Oh yeah I mean they always do that, you know you get in trouble for– I don’t know about this,
you get in trouble or you do something they don’t agree with but it’s not against the rules so then
they make up some shit to get back at you later. I mean nothing bad like I didn’t get a bad fitness
report or anything but yeah he was one of those guys. He graduated from one of those prestigious
schools and he didn’t– Whatever, I don’t care, he was a dick. So he– Yeah that created a lot of
crap between me and him but I didn’t care, all my guys made it home, I mean I think the worst
thing to happen to one of our guys is he got appendicitis, whoop-dee-doo, but then you always
have the commanders and like we had a 1st sergeant that was really bored. I love this rule, so we
lived in this old– It’s called Camp Baharia, it was an old bath party luxury resort it had like man
made lakes in it and stuff. Apparently Saddam used to have like race boat– Or speed boat races
and crap so all these little huts and stuff and you know after the war all the Iraqi siblings came
and like stole it all like the plumbing, the windows, all this crap. So we just have these shells of
�Rowland, Daniel
buildings and they have the porta crappers across the road from where we live and our 1st
sergeant’s like “Don’t leave your little house unless you’re at least in PT gear!” So one day one
of my guys he woke up, goes to the bathroom, he's just in his shorts, and he got a page 11 for
doing that.
Interviewer: “Page 11 is?”
Basically a reprimand in your file, so yeah cause he woke up and had to pee he got in trouble for
not putting a shirt on to go across the street in the middle of summer, in 130 degree weather,
yeah I know right.
Interviewer: “Seems legit.”
These are people that, again goes back to the kind of person, I got– Cause everything we did was
at a platoon level or lower so the company staff, they got really bored and they would do stuff
like enforce stupid ass rules. Alright maybe not– It– Whatever I think they’re stupid “Hey we’re
in a war zone! Don’t forget to put your shirt on.” Cause you gotta go to the bathroom (56:15)
Interviewer: “So pretty much nothing really that eventful happened at that point.”
Nothing, nothing exciting, or at least not to us I mean other of our platoons they’ll get into
firefights. I guess one time they were driving– One guy– One unit was driving down a road and
they have a– Fallujah’s got like a little industrial section in the southeast like all warehouses and
stuff, they were driving down there some guys come out of a building wearing suicide vests and
they were looking at each other and then our guys just turned their guns and started shooting at
them, see we missed all the fun stuff, I don’t know.
Interviewer: “That’s–”
Alright it’s not fun in general but when you’re in an armored vehicle and somebody’s shooting at
you with AK-47s and is still far enough where the suicide vests won’t actually do anyhting and
�Rowland, Daniel
all you have to do is rotate your 50 caliber machine gun down the alley and fire. I mean 50
caliber bullets are pretty– They’re lethal for like, you know small armored vehicles let alone
people, there’s not much left of you. So you always hear those stories and you’re like “Why
wasn’t I there?”
Interviewer: “So when did you leave?”
We left October of ‘07, got back and then that was pretty much the highlight of my career. I
reenlisted a couple months later and my choices were I could stay with the unit and get a $20,000
bonus or I could pick my own duty station. Well my dumbass picked the– My own duty station
cause who needs 20 grand? Well also the mentality of I’ve been over three times and managed to
still be alive, I don’t want to push my luck.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
Plus at that point my son was about four or five and I basically missed half his life, like when we
got back my third time I went to pick him up and he was crying because he didn’t know who the
hell I was, that’s depressing. (58:07) So I’m like “Yeah I’ll stay stateside for a while.” And then
I ended up being– Where the hell was it? Camp Johnson which is kind of a weird cyclical thing,
that was the base I went to originally to learn to be an administrative clerk.
Interviewer: “Where was that at?”
It’s like right next to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina, there’s like Camp Lejeune and then
there’s Camp Johnson, Camp Geiger, the air station. Camp Geiger is where they train the
infantry, Camp Johnson’s where they teach the mechanics, the administrative clerks, the
financial clerks, and the box kickers– Warehouse guys, their school’s two week it’s like “Why
are you even here?” So I basically ended back up where I started and the only jobs there for
grunts were sergeant of the guard, basically before a Marine goes into job training if there’s not a
class starting they stick them in a barracks and make them little crap jobs like, you know like
“Oh hey go help the maintenance guys.” Or go to– Well we got 40 guys to stand around and tell
�Rowland, Daniel
the Marines their shirts are tucked in, it was pretty mindless but I was fine with that because I
didn’t– I wanted mindless I wanted to be home and, pretty much not that exciting, I just sat
around with a bunch of other– Of course the problem was is the mentality, there were like seven
of us there, there were guys from 1st Battalion 6th Marines, 3rd Battalion and me and we’d all–
We’d actually all been in Iraq together, all of our units around, so our mentality was different
than a bunch of guys learning to be, you know accountants. So needless to say there were
multiple classes, though my first year there was probably my greatest year in the Marine Corps.
My immediate– My commanding officer was a guy I had served with during the invasion, so
again back to the small world. So yeah I got to basically get away with murder and I’m not
saying I did anything wrong but we had pretty lax guidelines at this point. When guys you had
served with in combat are your bosses, but it was all– Our sergeant major was about the top
enlisted guy, was actually with 3-6, he was like 5”1, his actual last name was Meanie, he was
single and he rode a Harley. Yes, everything you can imagine, he would have like an NCO call
for all the corporals and sergeants and he would be like “Well first two kegs are on me.” You
know the kind of senior enlisted guy that you only hear of in like fantasies and like I think he
was within six months. We were at a physical training thing and some 1st sergeant pissed him off
so he laid him out. (1:00:52)
Interviewer: “Like hit him?”
Yeah, from what I hear, and then he got transferred to a deploying unit which I think in hindsight
is what he wanted, I mean he was those kind of guy he could– You could like just drop him off
in Iraq and he would live there because he’s that kind of guy, but yeah but once those guys
started leaving then we got the pricks and that’s essentially where my career ended because I
couldn’t get promoted to staff sergeant. In the Marine Corps if you don’t make E6 by 13 you’re
out so.
Interviewer: “Okay so you were forcibly discharged.”
I was– I was unable to reenlist, but and then that goes back to when they took my two and half,
three years time in grade because as an infantry Marine you normally had to be in a sergeant for
�Rowland, Daniel
two or three years before you’re even eligible for promotion and by the time– So that was ‘04 so
I was, I think it was in the– In the Marine Corps you have Marines in the zone, below zone and
above zone so like they need a hundred dudes, they’ll put 200 guys in the zone, and that’s all
based on how long you’ve been and E5 and I think my first year I was in the below zone. That’s
basically like “Oh we can’t find enough good guys we’ll go down here and look.” So by the time
I was– And that just happened to coincide with the downsizing, they were gonna cut 20 or
30,000 Marines. They were promoting 400 Marines in my job a year, the year I was finally
eligible they cut it down to 90, it was like– So that along with my lost time in grade, you know I
should’ve been eligible for promotion two years earlier but now it was like, it was just a cluster
fudge and it kind of– Came to and end, which I was fine with because I was unable to reenlist
through no fault of my own, they gave me a nice severance package which was fun. I mean if
you’re gonna get out–
Interviewer: “You might as well get a severance from it right?”
Yeah but at the end of the day I, at that point I think I had 15 years in, a year and half later they
offered 15 year retirements.
Interviewer: “That’s unfortunate.” (1:02:55)
Oh I know right, but anyway that was pretty much the bulk of it.
Interviewer: “So that was your last duty station then you separated? What’d you do
after?”
Farted around a while, I bought a house in Jacksonville where Camp Lejeune is and of course in
2010, guess what happened in 2008. I went with downsizing, the housing market was just– So I
couldn’t leave, it was so sad because living in a military town when you’re no longer in the
military is like ehhh. Bummed around a while and then I finished my first master’s degree, I’d
started when I was in Iraq the third time, I was bored and like “I’m going to school.” And then I
don’t know, stuff just happened, I got sick of living there and then you learn the whole “It’s who
�Rowland, Daniel
you know” adage, like I would try to apply for the jobs on base and never seem to get them, but
now it’s just me whining.
Interviewer: “I mean the transition from civilian– Or military to civilian is hard.”
Well in a military town like that the jobs paid crap because there’s always an overabundance of
workers, military spouses and stuff so they can pay you less money because if you quit or you
get fired they got ten more lined up in the back. So the jobs just sucks and any good jobs on base
it’s who you knew, like one time there was an educational counselor job open at the base
education center, you know I had a bachelor’s in counseling and a master’s in education, I didn’t
get an interview. Things like that you know and after that I just gave up and eventually “Well
let’s just pack it in and move.” So when my marriage started going south, my second one, I just
grabbed my kid and moved back here to Michigan and said “Hey let’s go back to school again.”
Cause they gave me an extra year free, G.I bill so nothing amazing.
Interviewer: “And that’s what you’re doing now?”
Yeah I’m going to school and running into people like you who ask me to do things like this,
which isn’t bad I guess, taking worthless English classes. (1:04:50)
Interviewer: “So nothing– The military didn’t really prepare you for the civilian life?”
I’m– In the general context they do not, for me it– I mean this is gonna sound egotistical again
but I didn’t need them too because I’d done four years and gotten out the first time, then I went
back in, then when I got out the next time, you know– I think the best thing that prepared me for
transition was still living in a military town and knowing how it is, and then by the time I get
back up here it’s a totally different community like for one you know people around here
actually like veterans. Well when you’re in a military town they’re like “Who cares you’re a
veteran get the hell out of my face.” So no they put you through like a three day class when you
get out “Here’s how you do a resume, this is how you do this, this is how–” You know there’s
no– They give you information that you can find on your own they don’t actually– It’s like
�Rowland, Daniel
coming back from combat, they’re like “hey don’t beat your family members.” You know they
don’t actually transition you from a combat scenario back to, you know peacetime or back to life
back in the states, it’s done really poorly.
Interviewer: “Was that hard for you?”
Not for me but for everyone cause I mean having the– I think it was easier for me because my
first time in Iraq I didn’t really see combat but I got enough of it to know what was going on so
when I went back the second time I knew what to expect plus having, you know the self– Cause
having like the degree in social work I already knew the generic psychological aspects, all this
and that so I could help prep myself but it was just one of those weird things where what I
already knew just happened to fit what I was going to do. It’s really weird how it all came
together but I could also see at the same time that for the regular guys coming back that it wasn’t
anything special, it wasn’t anything– It was one of those dichotomies it’s like you know come
back if you’re feeling sad or whatever talk to somebody but yet at that time if you went and like
saw a shrink your career is pretty much over. They’ve destigmatized a lot in the last five, ten
years but at that time they’re telling you to do but everybody else knew if you did you’re pretty
much done. (1:07:18) So, I don’t know, that’s where you see the transition of what it was like to
what it is and I know– To my understanding it’s still not that great now but yeah from military to
civilian life good luck with that. I mean they don’t really– They tell you a lot of things but they
don’t actually tell you– Help you– Having the information and using that information in a
meaningful manner are two different things, so it’s like you know you come back “Here, have a
book. Get the hell out.” You know it’s like it’s not the same thing as actually helping someone
transition. So once you get those discharge papers, you know go away, I don’t care anymore you
are no longer under my command, get the F out I don’t care. So now you’re out there alone
you’re like “Who do I go to?” You have to find out all this on your own, like nobody tells you
that there’s veterans service officers, that you can go to the American legion, the VFW, the DAV
and all these other accessible things. They may mention them in passing but they don’t actually
tell you what they do, what they can offer, all this other stuff but whatever hey that’s just the
military. Once you’re no longer able to die for your country they don’t give a crap.
�Rowland, Daniel
Interviewer: “So are you– Would you recommend the military to someone?”
It depends on the person, what you want and what you’re willing to do.
Interviewer: “How would you feel about your son joining the military?”
I’d tell him to join the Air Force.
Interviewer: “Fair enough.”
If he joined the Marine Corps I’d smack him upside the head, like I was stupid you don’t need to
be stupid, or if you could do it in a capacity which you can maximize your benefits but minimize
your risks, I mean again that sounds kind of selfish or something but at the end of the day, you
know I don’t want my kid signing up and going off to die, I mean I don’t think anybody does,
but if he wants to join, get some job experience, some military expereince, and some money for
college well that’s great but if that’s all you want out of it– Like don’t join and enlist in the Army
as a soldier you know as an infantry. That’s the dumbest thing but some people like that and
again that’s why I’m saying it depends on the person. (1:09:30) If somebody’s all gung ho I want
to serve my nation and go to war well hot damn sign up, become infantry if that’s what you want
but some people– And it’s the aptitude as well, some people just they could be the smartest
person in the room but if they’re unable to listen to authority and keep their mouth shut, not a
good choice but that’s just me.
Interviewer: “Alright, that just about wraps us up, was there anything else you wanted to
say?”
No, I’m good.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RowlandD2291V
Creator
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Rowland, Daniel
Date
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2018-12
Title
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Rowland, Daniel (Interview transcript and video), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Daniel Rowland was born in 1975 in Grand Rapids, Michigan and decided to enroll in the Marine Corps after his third semester in college. In 1995 Rowland attended boot camp in San Diego, California where he acted as the guide to recruits, After basic training, Rowland was sent to Camp Pendleton to complete Marine combat training. After completing Marine combat training, Rowland was sent to job training in North Carolina where he received training to become an administrative clerk. Rowland then spent three and a half years stationed in Hawaii at Camp Smith working as an administrative clerk. During this time, Rowland would be sent for occasional brief missions in South Korea. While he was stationed in Hawaii, Rowland also received his associate’s degree in business and bachelor’s degree in social work. In 1998 Rowland returned home and left active duty, joining the individual ready reserves where he did occasional active duty. One of these active-duty missions was a mission to go to North Carolina in 200. Due to the events of 9/11, this resulted in Rowland being involuntarily activated for two years during which he worked in a security manager’s office as an administrative clerk. In 2003 Rowland was deployed to Iraq as part of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade as the assistant security manager. After returning from Iraq to the United States by boat, Rowland decided to return to active duty as an infantryman in 2004. In 2005 Rowland’s unit was sent to Fallujah, Iraq working in headquarters company, and in 2006 Rowland came home for a year before being sent back to Fallujah, Iraq for a third time. Rowland returned home to the United States in 2007 and was stationed at Camp Johnson as a sergeant of the guard before being forcibly discharged and going on to return to school and resume civilian life.
Contributor
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Leroy-Rollins, Koty (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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video/mp4
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eng
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/920d53d619eb4441d5de63866960116b.mp4
aa97fbd7bb28aa1ce3dfe0ed901ce2f7
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74964602f277700bd23d0182b9f54116.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Rowe, Burt
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Korean War
Interviewee’s Name: Bert Rowe
Length of Interview: (1:19:36)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Burt Rowe of Niles, Michigan and the interviewer
is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay
Burt start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when
were you born?”
I was born on April of 1930.
Interviewer: “Okay and where were you born?” (00:32)
Where I was born was Saginaw– Or, no–
Off camera voice: “Saginaw, Michigan.”
Yeah, it was Saginaw.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you grow up there or did you move around when you were a
kid?”
I grew up in– I followed my mother, she divorced my dad, and I followed her into Muskegon
Heights and we joined the Marine Corps in Muskegon Heights and I flew a number of airplanes.
Interviewer: “Okay, now I want to back up a little bit and fill in some more of the
background. So how old were you when you moved to Muskegon Heights?”
�Rowe, Burt
Probably I was– Well I was a teenager.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you were still living in Saginaw then kind of through the
1930s?”
Through the 1930s yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay and what was your family doing for a living in the 30s? What kind of
job did your dad have?”
My dad had a job in the Navy he was a– Let’s see I think he was a– Seems to me that he was a
television– Or a color–
Interviewer: “Like a teletype operator or a radio operator?” (2:53)
He was a communications operator.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and–”
And he was that in the Hawaiian islands and he remained that a communications officer.
Interviewer: “So he was off in Hawaii and your family was back in Michigan?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did your mother work outside of the home?”
Yes, she taught. She taught grade school and also she taught primary education and she was a
very good teacher. She taught me, I was one of the lucky ones that I had her for three or four
years.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Okay, now you were kind of young then but do you remember how you
heard about Pearl Harbor?”
Well I heard Pearl Harbor, the nasty Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and they included the city of
Honolulu and Pearl Harbor and they came out of the north and they seemed to migrate
southwards and they bombed Pearl Harbor and they also bombed the famous– Yeah just trying to
think of what the famous–
Interviewer: “Well they bombed the Army base which was Schofield Barracks and then the
movie From Here to Eternity shows a scene of them doing that, they bombed the air fields
and so forth too. Now was your father in Hawaii when Pearl Harbor happened?”
No, he went later.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright just gonna go back then to sort of your main story, so you
graduated from high school in ‘48 and then a little– About a year later you decided to join
the Marine Corps. Why did you join the Marine Corps?” (6:55)
Because they were begging for– I wanted to bring the Marine Corps home, I probably did that as
I’ve mentioned before I’ve flown a number of airplanes, aircraft, Sinclair aircraft.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you were doing this before you joined the Marine Corps?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you took– Did you take flying lessons then?”
Yes, I took flying lessons and I also– I flew airplanes during the war.
Interviewer: “You mean during the Korean war?”
�Rowe, Burt
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright.”
The Korean war and I flew aircraft up to the time I joined the Marine Corps and I quickly— I
didn’t fly during the combat. I flew airplanes and that– Moved a lot of aircraft and we also flew
airplanes. I always wanted to take off on a corsair, I had one incident that I flew an airplane and I
got the tail up and it was snowy and it was cold and I flew with the tail in the air and I crashed
into a fence and I managed to finish the Spanish– Not Spanish, but I had the tail in the air and I
managed to–
Interviewer: “Well you hit a fence.”
Demolition of a land house and nothing happened to me, nothing happened materially, it scared
the hell out of–
Interviewer: “Now I kind of want to back up again here and try to kind of put your story
together in order if we can. So you enlist in the Marine Corps in about 1949, I think that
was what you figured you did, and you did that voluntarily you weren’t drafted. They were
looking for volunteers, now when you enlisted did you hope to be a pilot or did they tell you
you couldn’t be a pilot?” (12:15)
No, I didn’t hope to be a pilot, I wanted the ground troops and I kept pretty much the air wing, I
was air wing for– Oh, probably two or three years.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you first– Now after you enlist, first thing you do would be
to go to boot camp right?”
Yeah.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Okay where did you go to boot camp?”
I went to Parris Island.
Interviewer: “Okay so you go to South Carolina.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, now what kind of reception did you get? When you arrived at Parris
Island what did they do first?”
Well we rode a train into Parris Island and I had control of some of the– I had control of a certain
number of people.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you were keeping an eye on some of the recruits or keeping them
together?” (13:50)
Yeah and I– had a major that was pretty salty and he gauged my confidence and he knew I flew
on airplanes and so he kind of cheated a little bit, don’t ever– I won’t even mention his name but
he made sure I flew a little bit.
Interviewer: “Okay, well on Parris Island they weren’t flying though.”
No.
Interviewer: “Parris Island– That’s what I was kind of asking about was what was the
experience at Parris Island like?”
Oh it was rough, it was– Probably made a man out of me a lot quicker and I was stationed at
Jacksonville and I also flew unofficially.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Now when you said Jacksonville, do you mean Jacksonville, Florida?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, because there’s also a Jacksonville, North Carolina that’s close to
Camp Lejeune so– But you were at a naval air station at Jacksonville.”
Jacksonville, Florida.
Interviewer: “Right, okay.”
And we had two or three guys that belonged to the same group and they also work for Michigan,
Mint Michigan, and we had a jolly good time and we kind of mixed it up and we had a good time
in service and I was still a sergeant and I had a crew that maintained, I think three planes.
Interviewer: “Now was this at Jacksonville or in Korea or?” (17:45)
That spread over to Korea.
Interviewer: “Alright, now what kind of aircraft did your men work on?”
They worked on Corsairs and the AU-1s, not the old fighter but we maintain AU-1s and they
were pretty much a bomber–
Interviewer: “Right, so ground attack aircraft rather than fighters, yeah because they used
a lot of those for ground support in Korea.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, so about how many men did you have in your crew?”
�Rowe, Burt
I had three men.
Interviewer: “Okay so three men, but they would take care of three aircraft?”
Yeah, they would take care of one another’s aircraft.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did they train you as a mechanic in Jacksonville or as
you– You had boot camp at Parris Island and then if you’re gonna learn how to work on
aircraft you need to be on an airbase.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “So was it in Jacksonville where you kind of started to actually work on
planes?” (19:15)
Yeah I was at an aircraft base during most of the war and I maintained– Under a staff sergeant I
maintained a– Three planes.
Interviewer: “And then you mentioned you also got to fly them some of the time. So was
that taking them from like one base to another or just to check them out to make sure they
flew properly?”
They allowed me, thanks to flying experience that I would move airplanes around the base.
Around the base and pretty much– Flew planes occasionally, that when I could steal a ride and I
would find some combat but not trained combat but higher– We had a couple of bricks– Or
planes and they would act as taxi pilots and then they would do more flying than I would and I
would clear the runway cause it would snow and it was pretty much land planes and corsairs.
Interviewer: “Okay, now the snow– Was there snow in Korea?”
Yes.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Okay, I don’t think they have a lot of snow in Jacksonville, Florida all that
often. Okay now do you remember where you were when the Korean war started? Were
you in Jacksonville at that time?”
I was in Jacksonville.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then after it started about how long was it before you got sent
over to Korea, because the war starts in about June of 1950 and how long then after that
did you go to Korea?”
Oh I probably spent maybe two years– One year, I probably spent one year in Korea– Excuse
me.
Interviewer: “So after the war started you stayed on in Jacksonville for a while before they
sent you to Korea, you didn’t go right away.” (23:50)
Partly.
Interviewer: “So you didn’t go to Korea right away after the war started?”
No.
Interviewer: “Okay it took a little while and then when you did go did your– Did the whole
unit go or just your group of guys who were mechanics go? Did all the pilots and the
aircraft all go together or was it just a smaller–”
Yeah they went by train and sent us over by train, managed to fly a little bit probably 10-20
hours– Excuse me
Off camera voice: “Here. Would you like one?”
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Oh no thank you.”
Off camera voice: “I beg your pardon I should’ve asked you first.”
Interviewer: “I don’t drink and interview. So now you’re– To get you— Now did you go to
the west coast and then go to Korea from there? So you’re talking about taking trains, do
you take a train to the west coast or did you fly the planes over?”
No I didn’t, I didn’t come into the west coast until I came back.
Interviewer: “Okay, so when you went over to Korea then where did you ship out– Or did
you fly over or are you in transport planes or did you–”
I went– Transport boats.
Interviewer: “Okay so you went by sea, so where did you ship out from?” (25:55)
We shipped out– Hmm.
Interviewer: “It could have been Jacksonville.”
What?
Interviewer: “It could have been Jacksonville, it could have been, you know–”
No, it was San Francisco.
Interviewer: “Okay well that is the west coast.”
Yeah.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “So how did you get to San Francisco?”
By train.
Interviewer: “Okay so you did– So you take the train cross country, get on a boat in San
Francisco and what do you remember about the voyage from San Francisco to Korea?”
Oh it was– It was a humdinger. It was a passenger boat and it had– It had– Oh my.
Interviewer: “Did they still have cabins or rooms that they put a bunch of guys in?”
Yeah, they had them down underneath in fact they– I had a rude awakening one morning and the
six inch cannon fired outside of Japan. It fired several rounds of ammunition and it scared the
hell out of me, I was abruptly awake and it was mostly Marine Corps, it was a mixture of airmen
and–
Interviewer: “Ground troops?” (28:50)
Ground troops and it scared the crap out of us, it was–
Interviewer: “So you had the cannon firing which was bad enough, was it– Were the seas
rough did people get sick?”
Yes they were rough, in fact I think I went over on– I was thinking most the time we were on– I
was trying to think of the name of it and I lost that.
Interviewer: “Okay, but you said it was a converted passenger ship?”
Yeah.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you get to spend a lot of time on deck or do they make you
stay below?”
Well we spent a lot of time on deck and it was because of storms and they would let us into
Japan.
Off camera voice: “You had a hurricane or something didn’t you?”
Yeah we had a hurricane and it was– What the heck I can’t remember the name of it, it was–
Seems like it was the Ward and it was a– It was a boat– Or passenger boat and it was splashing
and it was diving and–
Interviewer: “Did you think you were going to sink?” (31:55)
I thought we were a couple times and it was a– It was– I was trying to think also what port we
went into and I just forgot it.
Interviewer: “Well it can be a lot went to Yokohama some went to Sasebo or Osaka, there’s
different bases you could’ve gone to but you think you were in Tokyo Bay somewhere or
Yokosuka or– Anyway, now when you got to Japan did they let you get off the ship?”
Under guard, under guard and there was quite a few– There was quite a few civilians that were
on board and they also got off from that ship cause it wasn’t very comfortable. It got us with the
hurricane and they wouldn’t let us go in shore, it was a hurricane so we stuck around if you can
imagine and I know I got sick.
Interviewer: “So they kind of had to clean the ship before you got back on it.”
Yeah.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Alright, now how long did you stay in Japan? Were you just there a few
hours or a few days or?”
I was there a few days and–
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so we were talking about– Okay you were kind of briefly in
Japan and then do they put you back on the same ship to go to Korea or do you get on a
different one or?”
No, we flew.
Interviewer: “Oh you get to fly now, okay.”
We flew over to Korea in a passenger plane.
Off camera voice: “From where?”
From Japan, Atami– Atami, Japan.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then–” (35:16)
That was an air force base.
Interviewer: “Right and then where did you land in Korea?”
I ended up on– Well it was pretty tough but we ended up on a flight of trainers and I fell asleep
and above the mountains and I’d fallen asleep and all of a sudden I got a change of pitch in the
airplane. It was a fallen– It lost its power on the engine and it kind of startled me out of my sleep
and I said I’d never jump from an airline and I did, I was probably about half way down the
plane and I proceeded to say “I’m gonna jump.” I thought the airplane had changed pitch and it
did and it kind of scared the hell out of me.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Okay, but they got the power back though?”
Yeah, oh yeah they got the power back cause I was halfway to the rear to jump out the tail end of
the plane but I suddenly, red face and all, and afterwards I–
Off camera voice: “I don’t know how much time he had but it’s been about an hour do you want
to go on or do you want to– Because–”
Interviewer: “Well, my time is actually pretty flexible.”
Off camera voice: “What?”
Interviewer: “I’m pretty flexible I mean were here probably like to just finish–”
Off camera voice: “Okay, I was just trying to make it go a little faster–”
Interviewer: “No, no we’re okay it sort of– It takes however long it takes. Okay, so the
flight to Korea was interesting. Alright but you land safely in Korea, now where did they–
What base were you at in Korea, so where were you working?” (39:10)
I was appointed sergeant working for staff sergeant and I was– I had control of two fighter
planes– Three flight planes and the crew that I had was–
Interviewer: “These are the same guys you had in Jacksonville?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now where were you based, what air base were you on?”
Ata– I think it was Atami.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “But that’s Japan.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay but in Korea though you were on a base?”
Yeah, I was on a base in Korea.
Interviewer: “But you don’t know which one?”
No it was–
Interviewer: “Were there any towns nearby that you can remember or?”
No, it was– We had a Japanese– Some teenager and they–
Off camera voice: “Didn’t they work for you?” (40:47)
Yeah, they worked for us.
Interviewer: “Were these Japanese or Koreans? You’re in Korea, you'd have Koreans.”
It was Koreans.
Interviewer: “Right, okay.”
Yeah, it was Koreans they were washing planes and they weren’t mechanically involved in the
planes, that was our job but we had a few Koreans that were– They were probably farmers, most
of them were farmers and they also carried bazookas and they were– We kept an eye on them
and killed a few of them but we got along with them mostly.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Okay, you said you killed a few of them?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Were there people who were attacking your base or trying to steal things
or?”
They were stealing and they– A few of them were pretty reliable and they would be– Sometimes
they would be caught out in the field and they would have firearms and they were actually
farmers and this was in– This was in Japan.
Interviewer: “In Japan rather than Korea?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “So they were Japanese farmers carrying weapons around?” (43:57)
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay…now but I guess– I’m trying to sort out here but basically your time
overseas, did you spend a lot of time on a base in Japan or were you really just in Korea?”
I went to Korea.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you shouldn’t have been seeing a whole lot of Japanese farmers.”
No.
Interviewer: “If you’re in Korea. Okay so the guys carrying the guns would have been in
Korea?”
�Rowe, Burt
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, I’m just trying to keep that straight for the benefit of the audience
here, okay alright.”
Yeah that is correct.
Interviewer: “Okay, now the base that you were on was this just Marine aircraft there or
were there Air Force planes too or just your guys?”
There were some Air Force planes, there are some fighter groups that were on ground.
Interviewer: “Alright, now who provided security for your base? Did you have Army or
Marines or?” (45:05)
I don’t know, I don’t really know.
Interviewer: “So it wasn’t you?”
No, no but we had a sergeant of the guard and they were Marines and they furnished most of
security around the base.
Interviewer: “Now did you have any trouble with anyone ever trying to attack the base
whether air attacks or artillery or anything?”
No, there was nothing like that and there was one incident where we had to shoot the Japanese
out of the air and that was– They were some bombers that would bomb the Koreans that were
active against us. They would bomb outside of– Geez, trying to remember.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “So they were attacking whatever stuff closer to the front lines or would they
attack your base as well?”
Well they would attack the base, they were Japanese.
Interviewer: “Or Chinese maybe, the Japanese weren’t fighting in this war. There were
Koreans and you had– Let’s see the North Koreans and there was Chinese who were
fighting you.”
They were Chinese or Jap– They weren’t Japan but–
Interviewer: “They were the bad guys.” (48:10)
Yeah.
Off camera voice: “You want a kleenex?”
Yeah, they were–
Interviewer: “Now would they send just a few bombers at you or a lot of them?”
They would send fighter bombers and there would be patrols throughout the day.
Interviewer: “Now were these– The fighter bombers were those the Chinese or Korean
ones that were attacking you or are those the ones that you sent after them?”
They were ones that we sent after them.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and so was it your aircraft that shot down the enemy bomber
or was it anti aircraft guns? Cause you said you shot one down.”
�Rowe, Burt
Yeah we shot– We shot our share of them.
Interviewer: “Okay, but was it your aircraft that shot the enemy aircraft down or did you
have anti aircraft guns that were shooting?”
We had guns that would– We would shoot and also we played baseball against–
Interviewer: “Some of the Koreans?”
Some of the– No the G.I’s, the G.Is and they would– I played first base and hard ball and I– We
had Marines shooting at hurricanes and some of these cases we fired on Korean fighters and
they– And sometimes they would happen during the ball games and there’d be strafing, that type.
Interviewer: “Okay, so a little bit of seventh inning stretch at the wrong time. Okay, now
most of the time was it pretty safe on your base?” (51:22)
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, now what kind of living quarters did you have? Did you sleep in tents
or in barracks?”
We slept in tents.
Interviewer: “Okay, how big were the tents? Were they two men or six men or?”
They were probably about six men tents and we’d get shot at once in a while and fact is in Korea
I had a sergeant try to clean my clock and he tried to– Tried to impose his ugly body and I ended
up trying to run through the door, you know it was– There was a little hand to hand combat.
Interviewer: “Okay, now see, were you there– So you were there at least a full year, so were
you there during the winter in Korea?”
�Rowe, Burt
Yes.
Interviewer: “And what was winter in Korea like?”
It was cold, it was cold and snow.
Interviewer: “Did you have any kind of heater inside the tent or did you just have sleeping
bags?”
We had sleeping bags and cots.
Interviewer: “But was there a stove or anything like that or?”
Yeah there was heat and they were either kerosine heat and it was– Fact is I crashed through a
door trying to get out the tent and we had a little bit of tent and quonset huts and we had fire pits
outside, it– Pretty shaky sometimes.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you ever get to go into Seoul or into any of the larger cities or
towns?” (54:40)
Yeah, I got into Seoul and we didn’t really get anything in Japan. Fact is we got along with the
Japanese probably as well as could be and we didn’t really have any hand to hand combat with
the Japanese.
Interviewer: “Of course you weren’t in Japan, but with the Koreans either though, I mean
you didn’t have trouble with the Korean civilians.”
No, no we didn’t have any combat with the– Not any known combat with the Koreans because
we were– I like to think that we were too good for, but that wasn’t the case. We had some
aircraft skirmishes but it didn’t– It wasn’t that much combat.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Okay, so the planes that you were working on, would they come back with
bullet holes or battle damage?”
Oh yeah, yeah we would repair our aircraft and it had bullet holes.
Off camera voice: “Didn’t you have some night time visitors?”
Oh yeah, we had night time fighters that would– They would attack during the night time and
they would share a good part of the combat.
Interviewer: “And would they just send one or two of those at a time to kind of keep you
awake or bother you?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah, the bed check Charlie thing, yeah.” (58:25)
Yeah, the bed check, accurately portrayed.
Interviewer: “Now when they came at night, I mean did you have any aircraft that would
fly at night to chase them off or did you just have the anti-aircraft guns? When the enemy
attacks at night would you fight back or just let them go?”
They would occasionally have night time fighters and they would try to– They would, the
Koreans would, try to fight them off but they never completed any casualties but they– There
wasn’t too much, there wasn’t probably too much combat between fighters.
Interviewer: “Now if you think about the time that you spent in Korea, are there other
kinds of memories you have of that, that you haven’t talked about yet?”
�Rowe, Burt
Yeah.
Interviewer: “So what other stories could you bring in here?”
Not to tell stories but there probably weren’t too many– Too many of approaches by women but
they always get in the picture.
Interviewer: “Okay, so there were women around looking for business.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, yeah that was part of life in then, now were there– Would they be off
of the base and men would go find them or would they come onto the base?” (1:01:25)
Well sometimes they come onto base but they didn’t have too many.
Interviewer: “Well there wasn’t a big town close by or anything.”
No.
Interviewer: “You were kind of out in the country some place, so lost a whole lot of
business.”
Yeah, we were probably– It was probably combat free if you figure out what I mean, they were
non-combatant.
Interviewer: “Alright well we were talking about just sort of what life in Korea was like
and that kind of thing and you would talk some about encountering locals of different
sorts. You had business women, if you will, who were around the base and so forth but you
also had Koreans who worked for you on the base, they cleaned the planes. Did you have
people who cleaned–”
�Rowe, Burt
The clothes?
Interviewer: “Yeah the clothes and that kind of thing for you.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah, okay alright now while you were in Korea did you pretty much stay
with the same group of guys the whole time? So you came in with your crew and then
stayed with them?”
Well you pretty much– You pretty much stayed with them.
Interviewer: “Right, because it wasn’t like you had– Sometimes you had people who
rotated in and out of units and would kind of come and go but your guys all pretty much
were with you the whole time?” (1:03:27)
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did you leave Korea before the fighting officially ended?
So there’s an armistice in 1953.”
Yeah, well I would say the armistice of ‘53 was probably– Did I serve in Miami?
Off camera voice: “Did you what?”
Did I serve in Miami? I can’t remember well.
Interviewer: “Well when you enlisted did you enlist for three years or for four years?”
Three years.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Okay, and if you went in ‘49 that would take you to ‘52, but you might have
come back from Korea, had some time left on your enlistment and then they gotta put you
somewhere. So you think you went to Miami then?”
I went to Miami, yeah.
Interviewer: “Now do you remember anything about the trip from Korea back to the U.S?
How did they get you home from Korea?”
Boat.
Interviewer: “Okay and was that ride any better than the other one?”
Yeah, it was a lot more peaceful and that was also a lot more wind and so we had the factor of
wind. (1:05:20)
Off camera voice: “And then he had to stay offshore.”
Yeah, we had to stay offshore pretty much in place and it was–
Interviewer: “Now was that when you were waiting to land in the U.S you had to stay
offshore?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, so kind of like when you went to Japan you had to stay offshore, but
this time there was no typhoon.”
No, there was some wind but nothing like what was going over.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Okay, and then where did you land in the states?”
San Francisco.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did they give you a leave to go home or?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then after that you went to Miami?”
Yup.
Interviewer: “Okay, now was it your same group now at Miami or or did they put you in a
different unit?” (1:06:32)
Different unit.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so what were you doing in Miami?”
I was doing the same thing except I had civilian– Or not civilian but it was a lot quieter, we
didn’t have any Japanese or Koreans or anything like that but we found our own contact
sometimes with officers.
Interviewer: “Okay, so when you’re off duty you’re out there having a good time and
sometimes too good a time.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now were you still working on corsairs or did you have different
aircraft?”
�Rowe, Burt
We had, probably different aircraft cause we had a lot of– Particularly in california and we had a
lot of characters. I still say I lose it, the term, they– We had our skirmishes but we didn’t have
any bullets coming back.
Interviewer: “Alright, I was asking about the aircraft you were working on, what kind of
planes did you have in Miami?”
Seems like they had– They had more jets.
Interviewer: “Okay, yeah cause jets had come in in a big way.”
They had more jets protecting either practice missions or regular, a lot of that.
Interviewer: “Okay, so did you get to work on the jets?”
Yes, I did. I worked on jets and I didn’t fly any but– Cause we had foreign, well we didn't have
foreign but we had– We had [unintelligible] and it didn’t amount to much of anything but there
were a few fighters and most of them were– Most of them were flown by– (1:11:00)
Interviewer: “Well you have Navy pilots or Marine pilots.”
No, they were down in Southern Korea, most of them were corsairs.
Interviewer: “Yeah, okay I guess we’ve been talking about– We kind of finished what we
were talking about so the last part of your enlistment when you were in Florida and when
you’re there you have jet aircraft and so forth to work on.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, and that kind of thing. Okay, and then so basically– Now was that
the last duty station you had?”
�Rowe, Burt
Yes.
Interviewer: “So you finish that, okay.”
Well I had–
Interviewer: “Did you have any time in California or just in and out?”
I was in and out of California and I probably– Maybe I have more liberty but we didn’t have the
combat planes we had before cause most of them were has beens.
Interviewer: “So you had older aircraft?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so now as you were getting to the end of your enlistment did
the Marine Corps people encourage you to stay in? Did they want you to reenlist?”
(1:13:23)
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what did they offer you?”
They– I think that’s probably when I made sergeant.
Interviewer: “Well, haven't you been sergeant already?”
No, I was probably sergeant working under a staff sergeant.
Interviewer: “Okay, but they offered you a promotion to staff sergeant?”
�Rowe, Burt
No, they didn’t– They didn’t combat or they just left us alone.
Interviewer: “Okay, so they didn’t really try that hard to get you to reenlist?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, so then when you left– So when do you leave the Marine Corps then?
Is that ‘52 after three years?”
Three years.
Interviewer: “Okay, so ‘52 and what did you do after you got out? Did you go back to
Michigan?”
I bragged about the Marine Corps. No, I came back to Michigan and it was pretty calm.
(1:15:00)
Off camera voice: “And he married me.”
Interviewer: “You got married, okay what year did you get married?”
Oh I’d say–
Off camera voice: “Go ahead, tell him.”
Interviewer: “This is a test.”
Off camera voice: “Tell him. What year did we get married?”
I got married I think– I don’t know, I can't remember when we got married.
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Oh that’s not good, okay. Okay but did you meet after he got back from
Korea?”
Off camera voice: “Yes.”
Yeah, I got married back in, well I think it was back in Miami wasn’t it?
Off camera voice: “Mhmm. Well we actually got married in Benton Harbor.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you knew him while he was still in the Marine Corps? Okay, alright
we’re sorting that part out. Okay and then what kind of work did you go into? What kind
of job did you have?”
Well I think I turned down a job of– Didn’t I?
Off camera voice: “Well he went to work for Clark Equipment Company.”
Yeah, that’s the most work that I did as a civilian.
Interviewer: “Alright, and what did you do for them? Was it manufacturing or sales or
repairs?” (1:16:40)
I had a division– Or not a division but I had a– I can’t– Koreans?
Off camera voice: “Nothing to do with Korea, he said what kind of work did you do for Clark
Equipment Company?”
Yeah, I ran the– What the hell was it?
�Rowe, Burt
Interviewer: “Well you’re operating a machine or were you leading a group of people?”
No, I don’t– Leading, I was leading people.
Interviewer: “Okay, so like a foreman?”
Yup, general foreman.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright now when you think back about the time you spent in the
Marine Corps how do you think that affected you or did you learn anything from it?”
Well I bragged about the Marine Corps, other than that I probably, I went to school I finished out
the–
Off camera voice: “Well you got your college degree.”
Yeah my college degree. (1:18:43)
Interviewer: “Okay, so you got G.I benefits from it.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Now do you think you also grew up a little while you were in there?”
Yeah, I didn’t brag quite so much.
Interviewer: “Very good, alright well you’re not the only person to be proud of having been
in the Marine Corps. So let’s close this out by thanking you for taking the time to talk to
me today.”
�Rowe, Burt
Off camera voice: “We are here and there’s a lady that works here at this place and she brought
her three sons up to meet him since we’ve been here because her first son wants to be in the
Marines. I thought that was, you know, very, very special that she would want him to meet a
Marine.”
�Rowe, Burt
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RoweB2177V
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Rowe, Bert
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2017-12
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Rowe, Bert (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Bert Rowe was born in April of 1930 in Saginaw, Michigan, and grew up with his mother in Muskegon Heights. Before graduating high school in 1948, Rowe attended civilian flight school. After graduating, he enlisted into the Marine Corps in 1949 with the expectation of being placed into the infantry. Rowe attended Boot Camp at Parris Island, South Carolina. After Boot Camp, he was stationed at a Naval Air Station in Jacksonville, Florida, where he began flying for the Corps. He was assigned to a crew of three other mechanics and worked with the Marine Corps’ Corsair ground attack aircraft. When the Korean War broke out in 1950, Rowe’s unit was eventually sent to San Francisco, California, before being shipped to Japan. From Japan, Rowe’s crew from Jacksonville was flown to an airbase in Korea where he was appointed as Sergeant overseeing the maintenance of three fighter planes. The airbase would occasionally come under attack by groups of North Korean or Chinese fighter bombers, which prompted the personnel on the base to launch patrol squadrons in pursuit. At night, the base lived under threat of being attacked by a few, sporadic nighttime fighter bombers. In their free time, Rowe and the other troops played baseball while living in six-person tents. During the winter months, the troops relied on their sleeping bags, tent stoves, and outdoor fire pits for warmth. Rowe also recalled briefly visiting Seoul where he and the troops got along well with Korean civilians. Overall, his unit experienced little combat and spent much of its time repairing battle worn aircraft. After being shipped back to the United States in 1952 toward the end of his three-year enlistment, Rowe spent some time in Miami, Florida, serving with a different crew. In Miami, his crew maintained jet fighter aircraft--a newly introduced technology to the U.S. Armed Forces. Once officially discharged from the Corps in 1952, Rowe returned to Michigan, got married, and went to work for Clark Equipment Company as a General Foreman. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Rowe was proud about having served in the Marine Corps and was grateful for the GI Bill for helping him complete his higher education. He also believed that the Marine Corps helped him mature as an individual.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Korean War, 1950-1953—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d1192d8dfceb69b8236926e873e1a46.mp4
46fcc7987e4b79b924cbcc1dc82a9504
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/48df6d4a0f2ad8851d6d47adaeb3b051.pdf
dcd34ee67162417a3e427524aeeb0497
PDF Text
Text
Rosin, Jim
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam War
Interviewee’s Name: Jim Rosin
Length of Interview: (02:22:01)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Jim Rosin of Wyoming, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, Jim start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with, where
and when were you born?”
Okay, I was born in 1947, September, in Bay City, Michigan. And lived there all my adolescent,
adolescent life. And went to high school at Bay City Central High School, graduated in 1965.
And, in the summer of 1966 I went to work for a company in Saginaw, Michigan that sold
bakery equipment. And then in the summer of 1966 I was asked to come down to Detroit for the
physical for the military, for the draft. So, went down to Detroit, had the physical, came back,
got the notice I was qualified for military service. Didn’t know when, at that time, Vietnam in
1966, early 66’, Vietnam was starting to ramp up. And there was a lot of publicity, but I don’t
think there was the animosity towards Vietnam at that point. You know? So.
Interviewer: “To back up a little bit, when you did the physical, how serious a physical was
it?”
Oh it was, it was serious. Yeah, they stripped you right down and took x-rays and did the whole
work. I had appendicitis earlier that year and I had the scar on my abdomen and they were quite
curious about that, what that was, you know. And all that, so. But again I was, I was cleared
physically to be able to do that, so. (2:33).
Interviewer: “Because I guess later on a lot of the descriptions are more cursory. They just,
you know, “can you breathe?” Yes. Okay. But at that point they did not need the huge
numbers that they would need. Even late in 66’ there was a huge–- very large draft out of
Michigan. But you were doing your physical a little bit ahead of all of that. So, at the point
when you’re actually called for the physical you don’t actually know whether or not you’re
going to be drafted at all. This is just part of the system.”
�Yes, correct. I was a part of a system and they didn’t have the numbers then–– the draft numbers
then or anything like that. You were considered, I guess I was considered 1A, or something like
that. So, which was fine. So I went through the summer, and waiting for the letter to come. And
it finally came, I believe, the end of August of 1966 that I was to report for transfer. And going
into the army in October 20, 1966.
Interviewer: “So where do you report first?”
I reported to the courthouse in Bay City, first, and they checked us off and then they loaded us on
a bus, and took us down to Detroit again. The same place we had the physical––
Interviewer: “Through Fort Wayne?”
And–– yeah at Fort Wayne. I couldn’t think of the name of it but that’s it, you know? And it was
a really, kind of, a dilapidated place at that point.
Interviewer: “It is”
It was very rundown. And in fact, when we went down for the physical, we had to spend the
night. And they put us in this hotel in downtown Detroit that was really nasty–– you know, in
1966. We didn’t even–– in fact, the guys wanted to go out and get a drink and get a beer and all
of that stuff. Of course we weren’t of age or anything like that but, but we went–– we stayed in
the hotel needless to say. And some guys snuck in some beer for us so we did have a couple
beers that night, but, but yeah it was, it was an interesting start. And then–– go ahead.
Interviewer: “I guess I was wondering, you know, you were, did you just accept the fact that
at some point you were going to be in the service? You weren’t looking for ways to get out
of it or––”
No I, I had, I had, I did have some back issues when I was in high school. I had a infection in my
lower lumbar vertebrae. But, they took x-rays and they said that’s all cleared up. You know,
you’re not, you’re good to go. So, I said okay fine. I, you know, of course you’re a little hesitant
about it but uh––
Interviewer: “And did you know anything about Vietnam before you went in?”
Yeah we just thought–– we knew what we heard on the news and I didn’t study it, you know?
We knew what we saw on TV and some of the fighting going on over there and some of the
reasons we were there, you know? The reasons we were building up over there. (5:40).
�Interviewer: “And what were those reasons at that point?”
Well, it was just they think, I think they thought they would go in there and just take over. Clear
‘em out. But, it was a lot stronger force, you know, the NVA, the North Vietnamese Army, the
Vietcong, and the, the influx of the Chinese weapons from China––from the communist China
into Vietnam. You know, artillery, infa- artillery––smaller arms––and all that type of thing. So it
was, it was interesting because, you know, there was no, when we got on the bus and we went
down to Detroit, there was no dissension among the guys. You know they were all saying we got
to go and do our best and hopefully we’ll get home, you know, in, in one piece.
Interviewer: “Did you see yourself as going off to fight communism or just to because Uncle
Sam was sending you?”
Yeah in a way we did. We, we saw that communism was taking over in that part of the world and
if we could nip that in the bud and help them, you know, that would be, that would be great.
Interviewer: “Okay, so we’ve got you on the bus heading on down. Where are you going? I
guess you got to Fort–– that was on the way to Fort Wayne.”
Yeah well that’s when we, when we, where we took our oath. And that’s, that was an interesting,
the way they did that. Have you heard of how they did that?
Interviewer: “Go ahead.”
They, they lined us up. We had to be in a straight line and then we took our oath, raised our
hand, and took our oath as a service man for the, for the army. And then they said, after we had
our oath, they said lower your hands, take one step forward. So, as a line we all took one step
forward and then we were then in the military. We were then in the army. So––
Interviewer: “And now that you’re in, what did they do with you?” (7:43).
Well, now that we were in, that evening they loaded us on a train, and in Detroit, and again the
train itself was sleeper cars because we had to spend the night and it was pretty dilapidated as
well. And it was noisy, and they gave us, I think, the last couple cars on the train–– the overnight
cars. So we slept, or tried to sleep on the, on the train going down to Lexington, Kentucky, where
our destination was for, eventually to go to Fort Knox. So the morning we got up, they said
everybody shave and get ready to, get ready to get off the train and in Fort Knox. Oh, we did
stop in Cincinnati. They brought some food on board and we stopped at the big train station in, in
downtown Cincinnati. And it’s a big round building, I don’t know if it’s still–– I think it’s still
there–– but I don’t think it’s a train station anymore. But it was interesting, the tracks were not in
�good shape and the bathroom we had was kind of like a single stall. It had a metal floor in the
bathroom, so you fill the sink–– when you’re going on a straightaway down the tracks–– you fill
the sink with soapy water so you could get washed down a little bit and as soon as the train hit a
curve all that water splashed out of the sink, onto that metal floor, and it was like an ice skating
rink in there. And they were, guys were laughing and falling all over the place, and you know
nobody got hurt but it was, it was kind of hilarious really. I mean it was you know, unbelievable.
So then we, they offloaded us the next day in Fort Knox–– or in Louisville. (9:48).
Interviewer: “Yeah, Louisville.”
So then we got on buses again and they took us from there to Fort Knox.
Interviewer: “Okay, was it Louisville or Lexington?”
Lexington, sorry. Yeah, Lexington. Yeah it was Lexington.
Interviewer: “Yeah okay, the bus was bussed to Fort Knox and what kind of reception do
you get at Fort Knox?”
Well, I can’t really remember. I remember we were getting off, we had to line up and there were
a few gawkers there looking at us, you know? Laughing at us. You know, “here comes another
group.” You know, that kind of a thing. But they were having such a build up at Fort Knox at
that time the first thing they told us, they said, “you probably won’t be staying here long.” They
said “Well where are we gonna go? This is where they have basic training.” “No, they got other
plans for some of you.” So, we went, had something to eat. Then, they issued us our clothing.
We had the long lines to issue us our clothing including our underwear and our fatigues, and all
of our boots. Two pairs of black leather boots and the whole works. And then, we went and slept
in a barracks for one night and then the next morning they took us out and they lined us up again,
in three lines. And these were a lot of my friends–– we were still as a group–– a lot of my friends
from Bay City, kids I went to school with, kids I knew, guys I knew, were with us. You know, I
was thinking “Oh this is going to be pretty cool, we’re going to be going through basic training
together” and all that kind of thing. Well, the army had other plans. And I kind of think they
maybe did it on purpose a little bit. So, anyway, they lined us up and they, they count off “One,
two, three.” So we start on the front line “One two three, one two three, one two three, one two
three.” Second line the same thing, third line same thing. So, we were essentially breaking us
down into–– with–– to thirds. So they said, “number one is staying here at Fort Knox for basic
training, number two is going to Fort Carson in Colorado for basic training, which was a pretty
nice place to go. And number three was going to Fort Hood, Texas for basic training. Well, I was
number three. So you know, I had a couple friends that went with me down to Fort Hood, but I
think we spent a day or two in or Fort Knox. Just getting indoctrinated and told what was going
�to happen and what we were going to be doing. And then they took us to the airport, excuse me,
and they flew us to Dallas. Texas. And from there, we took buses down to Fort Hood. So, again,
it’s all kind of a blur right now. (13:08).
.
Interviewer: “Right”
It’s been a few years ago.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so where in Texas is Fort Hood?”
Killeen. The city is Killeen. It’s not too far from Waco. Kind of––
Interviewer: “It was west Texas?”
Southern central of the you know, south of Dallas, central Texas. Right off of one of the main
highways so Fort Hood at that time was the headquarters of the First Armored Division, the First
A.D. And so, they brought us in, we went into our barracks, we unpacked, they gave us foot
lockers and bunks, and the first thing they did was, told us, showing us how to make our bed and
they would be inspecting that bed every morning to make sure it was done right, and the blankets
were tight enough that you could bounce a quarter on. You know, and all that stuff. So we had,
one thing I remember I was smoking cigarettes at that point, and one thing I remember is the butt
cans. What we had on the posts in the barracks filled, half-filled with water, that’s where you
threw your cigarettes in when you were done smoking them, so. But, yeah I never thought about
cigarette smoke at that point in time, everybody smoked.
Interviewer: “Yeah, it was a little bit before the surgeon general’s report came out on that.”
That was an interesting time. We––they would–– we were issued M14 rifles, the old M14s that
had been around forever. We were instructed on how to take them apart and clean them and we
were, we were timed. Once when they were apart we were timed on how quickly we could get
them back together again and if you didn’t do it in a certain time, you did it until you, you got a
certain time done.
Interviewer: “Now did you have any experience with guns before you got there?”
Yeah I–– my, my–– our family was, were hunters and my brother would take my deer hunting
and that type of thing so I was, I was familiar with rifles. I would go pheasant hunting so I was
familiar with shotguns, you know, but not to the degree that we did there. And you had a choice:
you could, you could qualify with the rifle, the M14, or you could qualify with a .45 pistol, the
1911 pistol. So, we were issued pistols in case we wanted to qualify with that but these pistols––
�you know, I didn’t know anything about pistols–– but I could tell these pistols were well used
and a lot of of the guys, me included, you could, you could stand five meters, 15 feet from a
target and never hit it with these .45s. So we thought “no I don’t think we want to, want to
qualify with a .45. So, later on when I became a medic, the medics could carry the .45 if they
wanted to, but I carried the M16 so, but anyway. (16:53).
Interviewer: “All right. Now one of the standard things about basic training is the
assumption that you get yelled at and treated rather badly. Did that happen with you?”
Oh yeah, very much so, very much so. They would–– we had one guy that was, unfortunate for
him, I think they let him go after. But he was a bedwetter and they went, they got on him big
time, you know? And it wasn’t his fault I think it was a medical–– it was a medical condition,
you know. “How did you get this far?” and all this stuff, you know. They, they railed on him big
time and all of a sudden he was gone. I think they–– they took him–– they took him out of the
service. But––
Interviewer: “Did they get physically abusive or just yell at you and make you do weird
jobs?”
Well they would–– the only physical abuse we got was if they didn’t like what you were doing,
you had to drop and give them 10 or 20 push-ups. You know, that was the physical abuse. There
was no, there was no hitting, there was no. None of that stuff but it was intimidating enough and
you know, if it was–– the infraction–– was serious enough rules wise, you know, you had to do
50 push-ups, you know, so. We––PT–– physical training on the field was, was interesting. We
had a, a PT instructor that stood on a platform and we all lined up out there and we did PT every
day. At, at Fort Hood, it was out in kind of the boonies a little bit. And there was an artillery
battery there as well, and we would–– we would go out in the field and two fields over they
would be shooting live artillery, you know. So that was–– that was interesting, you know. Big
howitzers were firing and so we went out on many bivouacs overnight and the last bivouac–– I
think basic training was eight weeks, I believe. (19:06).
Interviewer: “Yeah, that was standard at that point.”
Yeah, eight weeks. Well the first few weeks we–– they–– of course they cut your hair off, you
know, which is not a big deal. And you had to get used too, in the barracks, there were no part––
stall–– partitions. You had to get used to sitting, you know, with everybody around you.
You know, and the same thing with the showers, were wide open. So, you got used to that but
the––I lost my train of thought. Anyway, we, we would go out on, on these bivouacs, you know.
We would march out and the final bivouac was, I think it was a five mile march out with packs
and rifles. Marching and running part of the time and then you would spend the night, two
�nights, or three nights in the field. You would do more–– you would do more things in the field.
More training and then you would come back. The night bef–– I was having some tooth
problems. I had a molar that was bad, so the night before we went on this big march, they got me
into the dentist and that’s an interesting experience too, for military dentists. They got me into
the dentist chair and I had to have the tooth extracted, the molar. And apparently I had an
unusual tooth that had two straight roots and one that was on a, on a curve. You know, so they
numb me up as best they could and they got in there–– and with pliers–– and they started pulling
and it went snap. It snapped. One of the roots broke off. And the dentist said “uh-oh” and I was, I
was gone. I never fainted in my life but I was gone. So next thing I know they’re smelling salts
under my nose and I’m, I’m waking up and they say “well we got the––we got the–– root out,
you know, while you were sleeping. I say “Okay, that’s good” and they sewed me up and then
they said ``Well you can’t, you can’t march tomorrow.” So I was lucky, I was–– I was taken out
by, by truck to where the other guys were and of course they gave me a hard time. And then that
night we had–– they just had issued us brand new beautiful olive drab colored sleeping bags,
down filled, first class stuff all the way–– and I woke up that next morning and that whole top of
that sleeping bag was blood. The tooth had–– the tooth had things. There’s a–– I just flip it over
and do it the other–– go, go from the other side. So anyway, I cleaned it up as best I could but we
did go home. Was in basic training for, I guess, maybe six weeks. Christmas came. And our hair
was starting to grow out, they said “you’re gonna, you could go home on leave for, for a week
and Christmas.” Our hair was starting to grow out, we thought “oh this would be good” you
know? So, the night before we were to go on leave the Sergeant said “got a surprise for you
guys, we’re taking you all to the barber tomorrow.” So that morning we had to get shaved again.
Our whole head got shaved again. So, so needless to say, I wore a hat for two weeks when I was
home on leave for Christmas. But then we had to go back to Fort Hood. And then finish our,
finish our basic training, you know, in Fort Hood, so. (23:16).
Interviewer: “Okay, so then once you get to the end of that, then what happens to you?
Okay, well–– yeah, you, you–– during all this period there is an aptitude test that they, they gave
you a couple times and they scored you a certain, a certain aptitude. And I guess I scored maybe
a high enough aptitude that I qualified to be a medic. Medical training. Some were qualified for
the mechanics, some were qualified for just straight leg infantry, you know, and that type of
thing. So I think I was chosen, or not chosen, but I was told I could go on AIT, advanced
individual training, down to Fort Sam, Houston and San Antonio. So, as a, to be a medical
corpsman down in San Antonio.
Interviewer: “Did you have the option to say no and just be in the infantry?”
No. No, I thought this was a good deal. You know, in fact, my brother was older than I was with
10 years, and he was in the army, and he went to Korea but the war wasn’t on––
�Interviewer: “Right.”
––in the late 50s. He was in Korea and they made him a medic as well. So, he was, he was a
medic as well in Korea for a year and my sister, again she’s older than I am but she’s an RN. She
was never in the military but she was a registered nurse so it was kind of, you know, unusual that
all of us in the family–– all the siblings in the family–– would become, would be going in the, in
the medical area. So Fort Sam was, was a great place. It was ten weeks of training, we had an
upscale barracks that we, we stayed in and they even had a swimming pool there you could go to.
We didn’t go to there right away but it was interesting because the, the, the WAVES the women
air, the woman air force or the women, whatever it was, the women army, whatever––
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
––Army corps, they had their basic training at Fort Sam and we would be, you know, we would
be marching out there or doing, going to our classes and stuff like that and there would be, you
know, these women marching by. They would be going through their routines and all that stuff
and it was, you know, we, we of course gave them a hard time from the sidelines but, you know,
so it was pretty intense training down there at, at Fort Sam and we even went to a point where we
had movies of, you know, taking care of patients and stuff like that and we had a, a movie on
baby delivery–– delivering a baby. It was probably, you know, a half an hour film on delivering
a baby. What to look for and what not to look for, so. Little did I know that would come and––
come and help later on. But, anyway, we were there and after–– I think it was after five weeks of
the ten weeks–– we could then go out to the surrounding area and leave the compound. Leave the
base. It was an open base, it was a beautiful Fort and they had a polo field in the middle and at
one end was the Brooke Army Hospital, which was the burn center for the military. That wasn’t
very pleasant to visit there, but I can–– you can–– you never get that smell out of your nostrils
when you went into that hospital. And we had to go in there and look at some of the burn
patients and like I said, you never get that, that odor out of your nostrils. I can almost still smell
it today, you know, of those poor guys that–– but it was good training that was–– (27:34).
Interviewer: “How much of it was geared towards specifically combat stuff?”
Well, a lot of it was–– not, not very much–– emergency stuff, you know, but most of it was
geared to hospital care, you know, taking care of patients in the bed. You know, how do you
change when they have a patient in the bed, you know, how do you put a catheter in? You know,
how do you, how do you do, how do you take blood, how do you give shots, you know, and that
kind of stuff. That was the majority of the training was and there was a lot of lectures and a lot of
testing. You know, they would give you a lecture and then two days later, you would better take
notes because there would be a test, you know? In fact, I still have those documents. I got them
�out yesterday and I was looking at them, I think “did I write all this stuff?” Unbelievable. So,
yeah it was good. It was good training. We knew we were–– a bunch of us knew we were going
back to Fort Hood after the medical training and had a nice graduation ceremony down there. We
all got our certificates and, but again, like you say, it was geared towards hospital training, not
necessarily emergency training that we, that we went too, so.
Interviewer: “Okay, so then after the ten weeks, so you go back then to Fort Hood––”
Fort Hood. (29:16).
Interviewer: “–– and do you get assigned to a unit at that point?”
Yep. We went to the first of the 46th Infantry. It was a mechanized, it was a mechanized Infantry
Division.
Interviewer: “That would’ve been a battalion.”
Or a battalion, yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “Because you’re a part of the First Armored Division at that point.”
Yes and then–– I wasn’t there very long and we were changed to the 198th Infantry Brigade. So
they told us, you know, any, any training we did then after, after AIT at Fort Hood. We were in
these APCs, the All Armored Personnel Carriers, they took us out and we’d chase cows more
than anything else out there in the fields, you know, we had a good time with that, so. But,
anyway, yeah that was–– then they said “no you’re going to be–– you’re going to be straight leg
infantry and you’re going to Vietnam.” This was in probably May or June of 1966 they said.
Everyone wanted to know “when, when, when are we going.”
Interviewer: “We’re in ‘67 now.”
‘67 yeah. “When are we going” and they said “well probably in the fall you’ll be deployed to, to,
to Vietnam.” So, okay, so we did training and the bunch of us medics, there in the aid station, we
had to give vaccinations and shots and they used the gun, the air–– air supplied gun, you know
for figuring the shots, there were no needles. First time I got in line to do that, the medics were
inside the aid station. They had an open window and on, on the window they had boxes of empty
insulin, you know, containers and they would sit there in the aid station and they’d shoot these,
these injection guns and they’d shoot these boxes off the sill in the aid station, and of course
everybody turned white, you know, and you had to be sure–– we, we, we were instructed and
told and trained how to do that–– you had to be sure, you had, they kept their shoulder still, you
�know it was all shoulder no rear-end stuff. And a couple guys didn’t, they went like that, and it
ripped them open and they had to get sewn up, you know. It was that, you know, that pressure
that, that air pressure was strong enough that it ripped them right open. So, so we did that then
we said “well––” they said “some of you medics we’d like you to, to get further emergency
training.” We said, “Yeah, that’s probably a good idea.” You know, so they had Darnall Army
Hospital on, on the base at Fort Hood, and so they said “we’ll, we’ll get you in the rotation and
you’ll go into the emergency room at Darnall five days a week, twelve hour shifts.” Mostly the
graveyard shifts, six a.m. till six p.m. or six p.m.––
Interviewer: “P.m. to a.m.”
–– six p.m. to six a.m., overnight, and that was, that was very, very enlightening and we learned
a lot. (32:55).
Interviewer: “Now was it–– did they have a lot of business?”
Yes they did and they–– was mostly guys were being foolish, of course, they were. One guy, I
remember, once came in, he was driving his motorcycle, got on [33:11] asphalted road. He
flipped his motorcycle on a freshly asphalted road and rolled into that asphalt and he, he had that
stuff–– he was screaming–– he had that stuff embedded in his skin. He was in shorts and his legs
and all that and the doctor came in, looked at me, says “clean him up.” I said “what,” he said
“clean him up, scrub him up, get him ready to go, get him ready to go to surgery.” I said, I said
“well okay” so I started to try to scrub this guy, you know, his arms and stuff and he was
screaming so loud. They finally, they finally came in and they had to put him out to get this
embedded asphalt out of his, out of his skin. So that was–– there was also one night–– there were
also dependents on the base, wives and kids of these people that were assigned to Fort Hood––
and one night this, they brought this little boy in, the guy brought him in his arms, and he was
blue, you know. I said, you know, “what happened?” Well he had, was blowing up a balloon and
the balloon burst and part of it went down his throat. So, you know, we were able to get his
mouth open and we just saw a piece of his, of the balloon in his, in his throat––
Interviewer: “Right.”
–– and we reached in and pulled that out and it was–– it was amazing that as soon as we got that
out his color came back, you know, he started crying, but it, but it was interesting. Then, another
time they were doing parachute jumps and we always had to go out–– they took the, the, the
ambulance from the hospital always went out to the field where they were landing and so we
went out with them, working in the–– in fact that morning, I think was early morning jumps so
we, we went out at 6 o’clock in the morning and one of the guys, unfortunately, his chute didn’t
deploy until about–– they said about 20 feet off the ground–– so he landed on his feet but he was
�dead. You know, so, we had to pick him up and take him back and that was, that was horrific,
that was really bad. So, you know, and–– and then they made us watch autopsies. We had one in
particular was a, was a woman they brought in and she was mustard yellow–– young woman had
cirrhosis of the liver, she died and when they opened her up all her internal organs were the color
of French’s Mustard, you know, so. A couple guys got a little woozy, you know, in there
watching this, watching when they went through the process but again it was–– it was good
experience, you know, looking back on it. It was good experience for what we were going to get
into–– in a, in a few months, so. (36:46).
Interviewer: “Alright, and so how long then did you spend at Fort Hood once you were
there as a medic?”
I was–– well at Fort Hood I was there after AIT, which was probably in May of ‘67 until, till,
October of ‘68.
Interviewer: “Alright, well ‘67 still.”
Still ‘67 yeah, sorry.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright––”
Through the summer. Through the hot summer in Texas.
Interviewer: “And at this point now do you get orders for Vietnam?” (37:21).
Yeah, at that point in time they said we’re going to–– you know, normally people were getting
orders to Vietnam as individuals. They said “we’re going to take you over as a unit, as the 1st of
the 46th Infantry, 198th Infantry Brigade, as a unit” and we said “well how does that work?” So,
they said “well we’re working out the details right now, go home for a couple weeks.” So we
went back home, this was probably in August of ‘67. We went home and then came back to the
Fort Hood and they had made up their mind what they were going to do at that point.
Interviewer: “Now, what was it like to be back home there? You know you’re going to go to
Vietnam. It’s now the summer of ‘67 and things have heated up some more, I mean.”
Yeah. We were–– we spent a lot of time watching, watching the news. And then the protests,
were already starting at that point, you know, and in fact we had to wear–– in order to get a
military discount on the, on the airlines, we had to wear our uniforms, so we were a little bit
hesitant at that point in time, September of ‘67, or August, of wearing our uniforms to the
airport. You know, thinking that we may have, we may have problems. But, it really wasn’t an
�issue. There was only one time, going down to Texas, coming back from Michigan from Bay
City. I think we landed in Kansas city and we were kind of like the last ones to board, where they
had open seats. So they actually took a couple of us military off the airplane in Kansas City to fill
it with a paid passenger. We were a bit upset about that and one of the–– I met, even a man,
remember one of the guys from American Airlines gave me his card. He felt so guilty, so bad, he
gave me his card. He said “you ever have trouble, you know, in another flight, you give them this
card and I guarantee you won’t have any, anymore problems.” So we were concerned that we
were going to be–– we’re going to miss our bus, you know, to Fort Hood and we were going to
be late, you know. We didn’t want to be late. So, and it, it worked out well. We got, we got, we
got back, yeah. It was hard to say goodbye to your parents and, and my girlfriend at that point.
So, yeah it was–– it was difficult. It was difficult. (40:15).
Interviewer: “Okay. So, but then they figured out how to get you to Vietnam and what
method did they use?”
Okay, they–– they said “this is going to be a little unusual, we’re going to take you as a brigade.
We have two merchant marine ships lined up in Oakland, California and we’re going to ship you
over the Pacific by merchant marine ship and it’s going to take about three weeks, we’re going to
cross the Pacific for three weeks.” Yep, and of the guys raised their hand, his hand right away he
says “does that count as our time overseas?” You know, he was concerned about the 12 month––
the 12 month stay overseas. They said “Oh yeah. As soon as you clear the international day or
the international border outside in the Pacific, your time starts, your overseas time starts.” So
they–– they loaded us, and we had to get all packed up. We had our big duffel bags and we had
our M16s at that point. We had qualified for using our M16s and they packed us up and they
took us to the airport, commercial flights, and I think we filled that airplane. And they took us
into Oakland Airport in California and Oakland Airport at that point in time, in 1967, was, was
kind of like it wasn’t a real busy airport. It wasn’t well known, but they unloaded us off the, off
the plane onto the tarmac. We had to wait under the plane to get our duffel bag–– the big, long
duffel bag–– and then we had our rifles and they lined us up and they marched us through the
terminal. I bet–– I think that everybody thought they were being invaded, you know, the looks
that we got of the, at the airport were interesting. Again, they loaded us onto buses sitting in front
of the airport and we took a short trip to the harbor in Oakland where they loaded us on two ships
and we had–– they already had us, you know, names and, and they checked us off as we, as we
boarded the ship and then I think we spent one night on the ship and then they–– we–– shoved
off and they had a band playing and, and all that stuff. It was kind of, it was kind of interesting. It
was kind of nice, you know, so. It was exciting to go underneath the Golden Gate Bridge, you
know, but the sleeping accommodations and the ship was–– like I said it was a merchant marine
cruise ship is actually what it was. It was a converted cruise ship. It was called the Upshur, u-p-sh-u-r, the Upshur. USS or the U.S Upshur. So, anyway they had it fitted out for a troop carrier
and we were down in the lower, in the lower bilges of the ship and they had us stacked four high
�and you had barely enough room to–– I was a lot smaller than I am right now. You know I was
probably only 120/130 pounds at that point–– and you had barely enough room to roll over
before you bumped into the guy, you know, above you. So, and we had to sleep with our rifles.
They didn’t have a safe place to store them. There was no ammunition but you had to sleep in the
bunk with your rifle. You know, so we spent three weeks in bed with our rifle so–– (44:23).
Interviewer: “It’s a good thing you were small.”
Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. That’s right and that was, that was–– it was warm down there and a lot
of the guys ended up going up on deck to sleep, you know. It was stuffy, smelly, you know, it
was all the above.
Interviewer: “Okay, now a lot of people–– I’ve talked to a lot of people who shipped out of
San Francisco and one of the things that comes into a lot of the stories is once you kind of,
you know, get out to sea, you start to hit swells coming in and the sea starts to roll and
everybody gets sick.”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “Did that happen with your guys?”
Well, we were–– we were in the infantry battalion and we were the medics. We had a doctor that
was that–– doctor… I can’t remember his name now. He was with us. So we set up for sick call
every morning. There were 1100, 1100 of us on the ship and we set up for sick call every
morning on the ship and we logged in 700 cases of seasickness. What was very–– I mean, the
ship–– when we first started out the ship would roll side to side. Port to stern, port to––
Interviewer: “Starboard.”
Starboard. Port to starboard, which was–– you know, everybody kind of got used to that. And as
the fuel was used up on the ship they told us “it’s now going to be started. It’s now gonna start
going bow to stern.” So we had–– once it started going bow to stern–– we had everybody get
sick again. You know, the same, the same thing. There were–– on that ship what do you do? You
had PT, you know, physical training. You ever try to do a push-up on a ship that’s going up and
down? That’s an interesting exercise, and they did give us the, the order of the golden dragon
when we crossed the International Date Line. They took–– they had cranes on board and they
took a couple guys and strapped them in the cranes and they dipped them in the ocean, you
know. That was their initiation to crossing the International Date Line. So, but we played cards,
you know, and then in the morning–– I never got, never got seasick, woozy, but never got
seasick. Except one morning when we had these tables that had little ridges on them and we had
�metal trays and the trays would slide back and forth. And you were eating breakfast and there
was a guy scraping trays and there was a port–– there was a hole there in the, in the counter and
that would go right out, right out of the ship. Well, he would scrape two trays and then he’d
throw up into that hole. He would scrape two trays and then throw up into that hole and that kind
of got to me. I finally had to turn around and not watch him, you know, but so we, we stopped
and we called it. It was–– the ship was called the USS Upshur–– like I said it was a, it was a
cruise ship that they used to run cruises from Miami to Cuba so the interior of the ship, the upper
decks, were quite, quite nice. You know, they were–– they were very, very nice, and that’s where
the officers stayed, of course, in those bunks and the officers. About halfway over, three quarters
of the way over, before we got to Taipei or to Taiwan where we stopped, we ran out of fresh
water for showers. Oh man, I don’t know if anybody’s ever taken a shower in salt water, but the
soap turns to grease, is what it does. The salt water turns the soap to grease. So you went into the
shower and you came out feeling dirtier than when you went in. As a medic, we were very lucky
the–– we were complaining to the doctor that was on the ship as an officer–– he says “I’ll sneak
you up to the officer’s quarters.” So he snuck us up one at a time and we were able to use their
showers which was–– they still had fresh water. So, that was one of the perks I guess of being a
medic on that, on that ship. But, we stopped in Taipei and they refueled and then we went from
Taipei–– it wasn’t very long after that to Vietnam. You know, so. (49:23).
Interviewer: “Okay, and how do you go ashore in Vietnam and where do you land?”
Okay, they took us–– they took us off the ship–– I can’t remember, I think it was Da Nang. No it
wasn’t, it was Vũng Tàu which was South, quite a way South. And we had to climb down the
rope ladders on the outside of the ship and you threw your gear–– they brought our gear to us,
you know, they, they’d taken that out of the ship. But they loaded us onto an LST, which is a big,
hollow, you know, ship. What is it? Something, whatever tank. A tank–– (50:07).
Interviewer: “Landing Ship Tank is the––”
Landing Ship Tank, right. The big, big room that was about a hundred, hundred–– seems like it
was 100 yards long by, you know, 50 yards wide by ten yards high. And as we were going onto
that LST they issued everybody live ammo for the first time, for the M16s. I’m thinking “they’re
gonna put all of us in this can and they’re gonna give us some of–– give all of us live ammo.
What’s going to happen if somebody lets loose some shells or, you know, fires some shells in
this–– in that LST.” But thankfully nothing–– nothing happened. It was hot–– it was early––
late–– September, early October–– in Vietnam. It was still very warm. So we ended up, in the
LST, we didn’t sleep inside. We ended up going up on deck and sleeping up on deck, you know.
It was hard but it was, it was–– at least it was cooler, cooler so.
Interviewer: “So you’re going North along the Vietnamese coast––”
�Yes.
Interviewer: “–– and how long did that trip take, do you think?”
That took–– I think we were on the ship a couple days. It took us, it took us a while to get up
there. You know, we had two days and two nights on the ship eating sea rations. They didn’t
have, you know, hot meals on board. You know, so we got our first–– we had some sea rations,
dehydrated food and stuff when we were in basic training and, and that so. But yeah, it was––
there are no showers, you know. Some bathrooms, but no showers. And so they unloaded us as a
unit in Da Nang. We came off the LST, they actually rolled it kind of up on shore like they do
the tanks. The doors down and we walked, we walked out as a unit, flags waving and all that
stuff, so whatever, you know.
Interviewer: “Alright, now were there media there taking pictures?”
I think so because I–– there were some pictures that I got from the paper, the newspaper,
showing the guys coming ashore, so.
Interviewer: “So we’ve now successfully gotten you as far as Da Nang in Vietnam.”
Yep.
Interviewer: “And at this point what is your initial impression of Vietnam?”
We were coming up the coast, it was a very beautiful country. It was green, you know, we could
see the Central Highlands at one point, in the background. You know, the mountains and it was
a, it was a beautiful country. You know, we couldn’t–– we didn’t see, of course, the interior of
the country at that point. The rice paddies and all that stuff, but it was very green and, and a lot
of military activity going on as we were coming up the coast. I mean a lot of flights, a lot of
airplanes, a lot of helicopters, you know. Didn’t hear much shooting at that point in time but, you
know, we came, you know it was–– kind of an interesting tour to begin with, I guess I should
say. So yeah. (53:23).
Interviewer: “Okay, and then you land at Da Nang and then what happens from there?”
Okay, in Da Nang we were offloaded off the LSTs and then they took us on–– I think they
weren’t, we didn’t have buses–– I think, we–– they put us in the big trucks. The deuce and a
halves with the, with the canvas covers and we were loaded in there with our gear and we went
to Chu Lai, which kind of like, was like a holding area. [Chu Lai was a major base south of Da
�Nang] Maybe something near the airport there at Chu Lai and we spent a couple nights there. I
don’t think they quite knew what they were going to do with all of us and they were still
building. There were two hills there. They said “some of you are going to be on Hill 54, some of
you are going to be on Hill 69.” Okay, so what does that mean? Well it means that the highest
part of that hill was 54 meters high or 69 meters high––
Interviewer: “Right.”
–– you know, so. That was fine, so we ended up–– I think they were, the engineers were still
building that, that base on Hill 69. Putting the huts up, you know, and doing all that stuff. So we
were probably one of the first ones into Hill 69. We had a perimeter, it was a fenced perimeter.
We had a–– we had a manned gate, you know, an armored gate–– a guy at the gate. And it was
interesting because as you were coming into the, to the hill, there was a little village there, and
kind of had been set up there to help the GIs with laundry and you know, all that kind of stuff,
so. Which was–– which was fine. You know, we were right off of, I think it was Route One,
Highway One in Vietnam and lots, lots of traffic, you know, lots of military. A couple of the
guys–– they shouldn’t have done it but they did anyway–– we’d be going–– they’d be going
down in a Jeep down Highway One and the Vietnamese had these little three wheeled carts, you
know, and they’d come up next to you and they’d push ‘em, you know. And the carts would
almost tip over and they’d laugh, you know. They were–– they were just being a typical, typical
teenager at that point in time, so.
Interviewer: “Now, before you went to Vietnam did you get any kind of information or
indoctrination about the place or the people or how to behave?” (56:11).
Yeah we had–– we had all those lectures and all those briefings when we were at Fort Hood
before we–– before we left. And you know, they–– they told us–– I think they had some ex
people that were–– had been there come in and talk to us and told us, you know, what to expect.
You know, they didn’t know where we were going to be or what we were gonna do at that point
in time. But, if you were going to do this, this is what you–– you’re going to expect. You know,
expect that if you’re infantry you’re going to be out in the field. You know, they indicated like
100 percent of the time, you know, which guys were really concerned about that, but, yeah. They
gave us, you know, politically what was happening over there, who was in charge politically, and
what the communists were–– were planning to do–– that we knew, or tried to know what they
were trying to do, and who the leaders were and not that we were in that area, but–– but, you
know, it’s–– it was–– they were pretty good about giving us, indoctrinating us, as to what was
going on over there, so.
Interviewer: “Okay. And did they tell you things about how to treat the civilians or anything
like that?”
�Oh yeah. Yeah, they–– of course they did. I mean you have a–– you have a military code of
conduct, and that’s applies to all servicemen, you know, that to have respect for the people and
the civilians and respect for your own servicemen, you know, and–– and that–– and that code of
conduct, they kept drilling that into us, you know, and I think it stuck, you know. In fact, it still
sticks today, you know, they drilled us–– they drilled that into us, you know, that–– that
thoroughly, so.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now, you’ve gotten as far as as Chu Lai and that’s a place near the
coast, that’s been described to me–– it’s got a very sandy and flat––”
Yeah it was sandy and flat. They had a very large–– there was a air force–– there was an air
force base there and we had–– there was a very large PX there which had everything in it. It was
very, very nice. It’s very, very large. In fact when I was there at Chu Lai at the PX, I bought a
movie camera. A Super 8 movie camera and the guys “what are you going to do with that?” I
said “I’m going to take some pictures when I can.” You know, so it ended up–– the movie
camera I bought, the Kodak Super 8, fit perfectly in an ammo pouch, you know, on my–– on my
waist. So I got an extra ammo pouch and I tried to take that, that movie camera, whenever I
could, out in the field.
I didn’t take it so much during the monsoon season, but yeah, the area was, was, was very nice. I
mean, you had the beach, you know, you could go swimming on the sandy beach and the waves
were very tough. We did a lot of–– tried to do a lot of body surfing at that point in time. We
didn’t have surfboards, we had–– we tried to do body surfing in the salt water, but yeah, it was a,
a–– Chu Lai was, was, was quite nice. And you had the backdrop was the Central Highlands
behind it, so. (59:52).
Interviewer: “Okay. I guess I might have been told like at least in the summer or whatever,
it got very hot though, didn’t know, the sand got very hot.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “But you’re there because you’re coming in, at least towards the end of––
toward the end of the year, at this point––”
Right.
Interviewer: “–– so you’re based on, on Hill 69 at this point.”
Yep.
�Interviewer: “Now are you assigned specifically to a company or are you with battalion
headquarters or––”
Yeah I was in headquarters. Headquarters company because I was a medic and we had the–– we
had the aid station. We had the aid station there so I was in headquarters companies. (1:00:24).
Interviewer: “Okay. Now, did you stay in the aid station or would you go out within––
No.
Interviewer: “–– the field with, with the line units?”
I was with Company E when I went out in the field. That was my assignment and Company E
was a mortar battalion and we–– we usually, because the guys carried these 81 millimeter
mortars, very heavy. They had one guy carried the base, one guy carried the tube, and a bunch of
guys carried the ammo. We were usually the last ones to go into the LZs, so all the other
companies went in first–– into an LZ, on a helicopter and, and then they brought the mortar
platoon which is us in there, so. We had lot of training with mortars there off of Hill 69–– they
had an area where it was uninhabited. We would train for the mortars to go off and the guys used
to like–– I used to go up and watch them and they’d always like the medic to, to drop the 81
millimeter mortar in the tube and I think that’s probably that and the LAWS, the Light Anti-Tank
Weapon, like a, a small bazooka. I think that’s where I lost my hearing. I’ve, I have two hearing
aids, you know, but that’s where I started to lose my, my hearing–– for, for those exercises.
Because we never–– you never wore headphones, you never–– you never put earplugs in. I mean
we had them, but nobody used them, you know, so, but––
Interviewer: “Okay. Now on Hill 69 did you have–– did you–– were you in tents, were you in
kind of cabin things?”
Yeah we were in–– yeah in–– on Hill 69 they had an assortment. They had officer’s quarters
which were corrugated metal, you know, and wood framed buildings and then we had a church
there, down in the gully. And that was again plywood and corrugated metal. And the huts that we
stayed in–– the aid station was corrugated roof and wood sides. The huts that we stayed in had
screens on the sides. I think they had a metal roof and then a wooden floor, you know, that we
stayed in. The huts that we stayed in–– with the bunks that we stayed in, they all had mosquito
netting, you know, in the–– so to keep the mosquitoes at bay, so. And then just down from us on
the–– at the aid station, up on top of the hill there was the mess hall and the cooks–– the cook’s
barracks there, and then we had bunks all over–– all around–– Hill 69, where they–– where guys
would go for guard duty. You know, barbed wire and then bunkers, barbed wire, bunkers all the
way–– all the way around.
�Interviewer: “Sorry, now was this a battalion sized base or company sized or––” (1:03:46).
I think it was company sized base. It wasn’t the whole battalion.
Interviewer: “So a lot of the time battalion–– the companies would be out in the field. They
would maybe rotate in and out.”
Yeah. Yep.
Interviewer: “Okay. But you went out in the field with companies at different times,
yourself?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay. Can you describe your first time going out in the field?”
Yeah, we–– the first time they took us out we walked from Hill 69–– would be probably going
West towards the Central Highlands–– and they purposely took us, you know, into some very
wet areas. Rice paddy areas we had to go through and all that, and that was, you know, that was a
very enlightening experience as to what you were going to be going through. And then, before
that, as a medic we had to make sure everybody in our, in our company or whatever, they had
malaria pills and there was a–– malaria was, was very prevalent over there. And so we had to
make sure that they had, had malaria pills. And the first thing you learn over there is: once you
go through a rice paddy your boots and your shoes and your socks are wet, you know. What do
you do with that? You slog through the day and then you better have a second pair of socks at
night. So, you try to rinse ‘em out with water and then the only way to dry them, you know, we–
– you stuff ‘em inside your shirt where it’s warm and you sleep and hopefully the next morning
your socks are fairly dry but they’re drier than the ones that you, that you took off, so. So, but––
(1:05:43).
Interviewer: “Now, when you went through those places would you get leeches too or was
that somewhere else?”
Yes, very much so. Not–– not so much in the lowlands, the leeches. We had a lot of guys–– a lot
of guys were scared to death of leeches, you know, and–– but the lowlands was mostly the rice
paddies and you tried to go up on the berms, you know, for the rice paddies and walk along and
you go through villages and of course the–– the kids would come up and come up to you and the
words they knew was “give me gum.” That’s what they wanted, you know, or “give me candy,
give me gum” you know, so. First couple times we didn’t run into any trouble, you know. Not––
�I wasn’t there too long and one night we heard some shooting off the hill, towards the Central
Highlands, and my first experience to see illumination rounds overhead, you know. We launched
illumination rounds from our hill, out, you know, phosphorus rounds, and it was amazing how,
how much that lighted everything up, so. And at that point in time the starlight scopes was just
coming into play. The–– a lot of the infantry guys–– they were very expensive at that point,
somebody said they were like $4000 a piece for these starlight scopes. But you look through
them at night and what it does, it magnifies the starlight or the, you know, the moonlight. And
everything has a green cast to it–– a green–– so it’s quite, quite interesting to see, so.
Interviewer: “Now, by way of weapon arena is your unit equipped with M16s at this point?”
Yeah, we were–– we had M16s. I was equipped with an M16, I could have carried a .45 but I
didn’t want to carry a .45, so. How many times I used the M16 to fire–– when we were in
firefights? Not very often. I was kind of sitting back waiting if somebody got hurt, you know, so.
A couple times I did, you know, you fire into the–– into the jungle–– you don’t know what
you’re hitting, you know, but, so. It was–– then we had a–– the automatic machine guns. We had
one guy–– was a machine gunner, and what I always was amazed at is these guys' walking point,
you know. They were the head of the column, you know, walking point and they rotated, you
know, not the same guy all the time but they, they rotated so yeah. They were–– it was
something to watch those guys. How careful they were, you know, not only were they stepped,
but looking and watching, you know. They had all those people behind them, they were–– they
were point. They were–– they were the ones responsible. (1:08:48).
Interviewer: “Okay. Now you had mentioned before that you’re assigned, at least initially,
to the–– to the mortar company and they wouldn’t be up front but did–– would within each
company though did you have your own point?”
Yeah we had our own. We had our own rifle, we had our own machine gunner and we still
walked in the column even though we weren’t, we weren’t the first ones to go through, go down,
but we were–– we were there and we were usually in the back and the–– the point guy would
give us a, give us a grid or whatever. You know, somebody would give us, give us a grid of
where to shoot in. And then later on in the year, we got paired up with an F.O., forward observer,
and his radio man–– out of the Hill 54, was the artillery hill. And I got to know those guys very
well. In fact, we shared a tent when we were out in the field, three of us. So, they would call in
artillery for us, so.
Interviewer: “Alright. Okay. Now to kind of go back to the earliest, in the first few months
of your tour–– before the Tet Offensive starts in early ‘68–– what were those first few
months like?”
�Well we were–– we were very apprehensive, you know, we didn’t know what to expect. You
know, you thought as soon as you left the hill that you would be shot at, you would be, you
know, you would be–– they had mortars too, you would be mortared or whatever. But it was
very rare at the first couple months, off the hill, but then when we started–– maybe we were there
a month after we’d done a couple, a couple walking patrols through villages and stuff like that.
Search, searching and clearing the villages, making sure there were no weapons in there and, and
all of that. People weren’t real happy with us coming into their huts, you know. And, you know,
we did some–– they knew we were a medic, you know? They–– we did some civic action there
as a medic to try to help some local people. You know, try to get on their side, try to show them
that we’re here to help them, not to–– not to hurt them, as far as the villagers were concerned, but
you never–– you never knew. They were concealed very well, the VC–– the Viet Cong were,
were very well concealed and you were, you were very skeptical about any, any young man
there. That was he a VC or was he just a, you know, was he just a regular villager, you know.
You didn’t. You didn’t. Or a farmer. You didn’t know, so.
Interviewer: “Alright, now you initially were walking out, but then you would start to go out
and combat starts, you go out in helicopters.” (1:11:54).
Right. Right. They–– once, I think once they figured we were used to what the thing was like out
there, what the situation was like, they started bringing helicopters in and we had to go out on
combat assaults. I think I counted 13 combat assaults that I went out on and most of the LZs, the
landing zones, that we were into were hot LZs. That meaning they were shooting, there was
some–– that’s the reason we were there, as we were going out to try to, try to, try to take care of
that. And we would go in with the helicopters, with the hueys, and the door gunners will be
firing the whole time until we got well off, well off the hueys into cover. So, then we would go––
usually landed in like a rice paddy or something like that, some place where they could get the
helicopter in. Then you went into the jungle from, from there, so. Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right, and now as the medic how–– how much of a pack did you carry?”
I carried my, my–– it was probably about all my bandages and all the stuff I carried. It was
probably a package of about, you know, maybe 16 inches long by 12 inches high by 12 inches
wide, and pretty heavy. Plus you had your normal pack on your back, and it was the whole
thing–– somebody said the whole thing weighed about 70 pounds. So you, with your rucksack
and all your gear and your water bottles and your ammunition and the medic stuff. So they said
“You can–– as a medic you can wear a red cross armband on your arm, if you want in the field.”
And he said “No, that’s just a target,” and we figured that was just a target for, for the for the
enemy. And, so I also carried–– as a medic I carried morphine and we had to, we were drilled in
into our head that we had to guard that morphine, keep it on our bodies at all times because guys
will be guys and they will try to get high, you know, with morphine. So that’s the other, the
�other, the other area of Vietnam which is marijuana. Marijuana was very prevalent over there.
You could go into a village and they would be sitting outside their huts and they would be selling
marijuana. And you could buy a pound of marijuana for $16. And–– which the guys were pretty
good about not smoking that when they were out on patrol or out in the field, but going back to
base camp, you know, it was a different–– it was a different story. You walk around the base
camp at night and you can smell it big time. What happened later on in the tour the–– the VC, the
Viet Cong, started lacing the marijuana with heroin. And they wanted to get the guys addicted,
and then they pretty much–– the army pretty much shut all that down. I mean if you smoked
marijuana it was–– it was almost a crime, you know, it was a felony. So, yeah, so that was–– that
was interesting stuff.
Interviewer: “Did that policy have any effect?”
It did. Yeah. It stopped–– it stopped probably 70 percent of it, you know, but there’s still guys
that still wanted to–– wanted to do that. I tried it, you know, we all tried it, you know, and it
didn’t–– it didn’t do anything for me. So I’d still rather have a can of beer, you know. (1:16:19).
Interviewer: “All right. Now how long was it before you had any combat casualties to
treat?”
Initially, one of the–– probably within the first month we were on patrol and we were walking a
single column along a hedgerow and the, the sergeant told us “Walk down the edge of the
hedgerow, come around, and come back up the other side.” So the guys are looking at that, you
know, some of the guys go, “We’re not going to walk that extra block down to the edge of the
hedgerow, so let's cut through the hedgerow right here. That looks like there’s an opening.” And
yeah, they had booby-trapped and–– or they had put booby-traps, explosive booby-traps, or they
would put false ground with holes with, with punji sticks. I don’t know if you know what a punji
stick is. It’s sharp and bamboo dipped in–– dipped in feces, you know, so that would cut through
the, the combat boots over there. Were canvas on the sides, they had steel toe, steel bottoms, but
they were canvas on the sides. But the punji sticks were designed to go into the upper ankle and
lower leg, you know, and so that was–– once they got into that–– they weren’t necessarily–– we
lost a couple that were blown up when they, they tried to cut across these, these hedgerows. And
then you had to bring medevacs in, then you had to surround the area to make sure that the
medevacs wouldn’t get shot at. But yeah, we had–– we had a few–– had a few guys like that. So,
we lost–– I think as far as a battalion goes, we had 25 medics that went over there. Five of us
came back unhurt. The other–– there was a few, there was a few killed over there killed in action
and then there was, a lot of them were wounded. Some of them–– some of them got sick, they
mean Dysentery and, and that type of thing over there was very prevalent. You know, there was
no sanitation. On Hill 69, I could go back a little bit.
�Interviewer: “Yeah.”
Visualize no bathrooms on Hill 69. Outhouses and urinals were–– were round rocket tubes they
had taken off the, the helicopters, buried in the ground and so that was your urinal. And the
outhouses were outhouses, and no plumbing. So, what we had to do was, we had to set up. We
took 55 gallon drums, put ‘em in the outhouses and that’s where you went into. You sat down,
you went into a 55 gallon drum. What do you do with that? There’s no plumbing, so every day or
two we would pull those drums out and the medics were in charge of seeing that this was done
properly. We would pull those 55 gallon drums out from behind the–– from behind the outhouse,
throw kerosene in there, and then newspaper and light it and burn the stuff until it was ashes.
Then you’d move ‘em back in and then you’d start again and so–– (1:20:04).
Interviewer: “You have a sense of smell left after that?”
Yeah well you, you tried to stay down, you know, down wind or away from the wind blowing
and that stuff. But what happened was during the monsoon season, which was winter months,
those things filled up with water and they wouldn’t burn.
So then you had to bury the stuff. You had to go out there with shovels and try to bury the stuff
and it was not–– that was probably–– the guy said that was probably the worst duty that they
could ever have, you know, was taking care of the crap, you know.
Interviewer: “Did you let any of the Vietnamese onto the base or they have to stay outside?”
Yeah, no they had some workers there in the–– in the mess halls and that type of thing, so.
Serving–– serving, you know, meals and all that kind of stuff, so. Yeah there was–– yeah and
they were vetted, you know, supposedly they were vetted, you know, before they came in. And,
you know, they would line up every morning at the gate. You could see ‘em out there on the gate
and they would come in and work. They were paid. You know, they were paid and a couple of
‘em I think worked in the–– a couple of ‘em worked in the motor pool there that we had, you
know–– mechanics and stuff like that. So, yeah. (1:21:33).
Interviewer: “Okay, alright. Now I think one of the incidents that, that came up and I think
was this in December? There was a point where you got to put your obstetric training into
use.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “When was that?”
�Okay. In December we were–– we had gone out on a combat assault quite a ways out on the––
on the foothills of the, of the Central Highlands, near a river. And one morning we were walking
along and along the river, it came into a small village and they–– a couple people ran up to us
“Mamasang having baby, Mamasang having baby.” I said “Okay.” So they call me “Doc,” they
say “Doc go take a look.” What’s going on? So, I go and take a look in the hut and this woman
is–– is in labor big time. She was in labor and you know I’m thinking “Oh, why didn’t we carry
gloves?” You know, we were concerned about diseases. Why didn’t we carry gloves, you know?
So I had–– they have, what’d they call it? The real sharp edged bushes, you know, in the field.
And of course you get going through–– pushing through that, you get cut on your fingers. So
I’m, I’m standing there going to help this woman, so I’m putting band-aids on my cuts on my
fingers so, you know, I–– you know, what do you–– what do you do? So now I’m thinking one
thing they told us–– this movie that we saw in fort, Fort Sam–– if you see feet, you know, you’re
in trouble. You know, but you know, I got her, got her set. Got her laid down and saw the top of
the head, you know, and the–– the guys were all on the outside of the hut and the villagers were
all around the hut, watching what was going on and this woman–– she was going through pains,
you know, and she never uttered–– never uttered a sound. It was just amazing to me that, that
they could hold that in. And then, all of a sudden we were getting fire, sniper fire from across the
river. So that scattered everybody and we started–– our guys started shooting back and of course
then I had, I had two worries. I had the woman giving birth, then I’m thinking “What happens if
somebody gets hurt or wounded in our–– or other villagers get wounded.” (1:24:23).
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
But fortunately none of that. Nobody got wounded, nobody got hurt from their–– from their
sniper fire. We actually ended up bringing–– the baby was born to the sound of artillery shells
coming in across the river. You know from our FO, ordered artillery into the, to the where–– that
where they thought the VC were but of course they weren’t. Once the shooting stopped they
were long gone and so yeah it was–– it was exciting time. Then we had the, the afterbirth of
course. And they said, you know–– the Captain came up to me, Captain Wolf says “What are we
going to do with her?” I said “Well, we’re going to take her to a hospital,” you know, it’s the
only thing we can do. So I said “Is it safe to bring a medevac in at this point?” He said “Yeah we
haven’t had any shooting for a while,” so he said “We’ll bring a medevac in.” So they brought––
it was a baby boy, by the way, came out good. And I tied off the umbilical cord like they told me
to, and cut it and, you know, they, they took her. The medevac arrived, they put her on a
stretcher, and they put her on the helicopter, and they took her into Chu Lai Hospital, you know,
to be checked out, so. They were, some of the villagers were a little concerned like, like I said––
you mentioned earlier–– that she wouldn’t be coming back but we tried to–– we usually had an
ARVN, Republic of Vietnamese Interpreter, with us so he was able to tell the villagers “No,
she’s just going into the hospital. She’s going to be cleaned up and taken care of, make sure she’s
alright and then she’ll be–– she’ll be brought out. She’ll be brought back out here.” So, a few
�days later I inquired and they–– that’s what they had done. You know, it was a healthy baby boy,
you know. Quite an experience. And then after that–– I didn’t realize it at the time–– but our, our
Captain put me in for a Bronze Star Award, valorous award, for that exercise, so that experience.
(1:26:41).
Interviewer: “Alright, now before the Tet Offensive started did your unit get into any largescale firefights?”
It was pretty quiet. This–– I think I delivered the baby on the 19th of December, just before
Christmas. After that, when we went into base camp, the Bob Hope Show was there and a couple
of us were able to go to see Bob Hope and Raquel Welch. That was quite an experience, you
know, right before Christmas in Chu Lai. And then after that, through Christmas and the New
Year–– our New Year–– it was pretty quiet. It was not much fighting going on. You know, little
probably did we know that there was–– this was the time during the big buildup of the ARVN, or
the North Vietnamese––the NVA coming down. And so that was through January–– we went on
a lot of patrols but there was sporadic firefights and, but nothing–– nothing real, nothing real
major, you know, at all. So January 30th was their Tết New Year, their, their New Year. And we
went out in the field at the base of the, of the Central Highlands camping overnight.
Bivouacking, bivouacking overnight and the guys were on guard duty and that type of thing and
all of a sudden we get a report from headquarters that there were a thousand NVA troops within
two miles of our location. So, we didn’t go. It was the middle of the night, we didn’t go out after
them. We launched as–– as a mortar platoon we launched a lot of illumination rounds to see if
we could see any movement out there, but we didn’t. About four o’clock in the morning or so,
still dark, all of a sudden we hear “woosh” out of the Central Highlands. The NVA were
launching rockets into Chu Lai. Into the air base. They were aiming for the hospital, they were
aiming for whatever they could do, so. The next morning we watched these rockets go off from
the Central Highlands, you know, maybe halfway up the mountain and it was–– it was a
frightening experience. We didn’t know what was–– if these a thousand NVA was in our area or
whatever, so. (1:29:34).
Interviewer: “Now were you with a company sized unit at that point?”
Yeah. Yeah, a company sized unit. So they took us to–– they brought, they brought helicopters
and gunships in in the morning. They picked us up and they said “You’re going up in the Central
Highlands where the rockets came from.” Okay, so–– so we loaded into the helicopters and they
took us up into the Central Highlands. Well the problem was the helicopters could not land on
the side of a mountain. So, the NVA had cleared out an area where they had the rockets launched
and of course they were–– they were gone. The NVA were gone. They weren’t there anymore.
So we, we tried as best we could–– the helicopter pilots tried as best they could, with their
propellers, to get us as low as they could onto the side of that mountain. Then we had to jump out
�of the helicopter and most of the guys–– a couple sprained ankles–– most of the guys did fine.
You know, one guy was sitting–– you can imagine–– he’s sitting on this, on the edge of the
helicopter floor and there’s the strut down there and he had his feet on the strut. Instead of
standing up and jumping, he just kind of–– he just kind of slithered off the helicopter floor and
his rucksack got caught on this, on the strut where the helicopter lands. So, he hung there for a
few minutes and then he got free, then he flipped 180 degrees and land on his rucksack, on his
back, on the side of the mountain. So I went over to see him and he had the wind knocked out of
him but he was okay, thank goodness. He, he didn’t have to–– we didn’t have to evac him out,
so. But yeah, we stayed up there. We did patrols from that area for a few days. One time, it had
cleared out–– it got pretty quiet for a while right there. One day, we were–– had–– a patrol going
out to try to find some fresh water in the streams up there in the mountains. So, one of the guys–
– I think it was a radio man or somebody that wasn’t really infantry trained–– wanted to walk
point. So, six of us went down this trail and he was walking point and all of a sudden I look up
and he’s running back. You know “Let’s get out of here, get out of here.” I said “What’s going
on?” He says “I just ran into a column of NVA coming the other way on the trail.” Both point
men saw each other, they turned around, and they ran. They ran in both directions. So, when
they–– when we got back shaking a little bit, a little scared–– back to the, to the group, they sent
a column out to try to look for these NVA on the same trail, but of course nobody found
anything, so. So, yeah. Tet Offensive was an interesting time. They, they blew up–– they blew
up a bridge in Chu Lai on Highway One and it was funny because later on they brought in a
crane to repair that bridge and on the back of that crane was Bay City. You know, that was where
I was from in Michigan. The government had purchased from Industrial-Brownhoist that crane
and they had shipped it over to Vietnam and they were using that to repair that bridge. But, yeah
there was–– it was a very tense, tense time. Lots of firefights, lots of guys–– lots of guys injured,
lots of guys hurt, you know. We had–– we had a lot of casualties in our unit, you know, but. I
took a note yesterday of a book that I had about how many–– how many injuries they had during,
during Tet and this is the U.S. Forces. In the 30 days–– the first 30 days of Tet, okay, that
would’ve been the whole month. Probably the month of February 1968, the U.S. killed in action:
2,371, wounded: 11,664. Of those wounded 5,500 will return to duty in, in country and 155
missing in action. The NVA counted 25,000 killed in action, and 16,000 lost weapons. There was
no stats on the wounded that they, that they encountered, so, yep. (1:34:49).
Interviewer: “Wow. Alright, now somewhere along the line you picked up another Bronze
Star?”
Yes. Yes. That was–– we went–– after I was in the field for through Tet and after I was in the
field for for six months, they’d like to rotate the medics back into the aid station and then send,
send new medics or send other medics out and take their place with, with the companies in the
fields. So, I was one of the lucky ones. I was rotated back to the aid station and then I believe it
�was in June or July of ‘68. The Tet thing had calmed down but the Laos thing had gotten pretty
hot. There were lots of stuff going on in Laos, across the border. (1:35:43).
Interviewer: “We weren’t doing officially too much there but we were doing–– there was a
lot of fighting going on further up in the Highlands, in the hills, and close to the Laos ocean
border.”
Yeah. We were told, our group–– our battalion–– was told “You’re going to Laos.” “You’re
going to–– to–– to deploy to Laos for at least 30 days.” Was like “Oh man.” And that scared the
heck out of us, you know. To go into a green site, you know, and they said “You need to have,
you know, your weapons, you need to have, you know, food. You need to have medical
supplies.” Well, I was in the pharmacy at that point and the government had put out lists of–– of
what they required for a battalion moving to a new site. And they–– you had to have bins full of
bandages and medicine and, you know, shots and all this stuff that we, that we–– sutures–– and
all this stuff that we had to, we had to use over there. And I did an inventory in our pharmacy
and we had a quarter of what we needed.So the doctor said “Do you think you can pull this
together?” I said, “Well, give me a driver and give me a jeep and I’ll see what I can find.” So I
spent three weeks scouring the countryside–– Chu Lai, the hospital, other, other–– other hills.
Hill 54, our hill, other, other military bases there. I think I even went to the air force, you know,
on the–– on the airport, and was able to pull together, I would say 98 percent of the necessary
supplies that we had to take into Laos. So we got that all–– we got that all inspected, got that,
you know, all quantified and, so, and then of course, a week later–– two weeks later–– your trips
canceled. But what the, the doctor wanted to do–– or what he said, he said “You went over and
beyond your duty to–– to pull all this together.” So they gave me a second Bronze Star for
meritorious–– for meritorious service. So. (1:38:10).
Interviewer: “Alright, so what was your–– what was life like then on the base, now that
you’re working at the aid station? What kinds of things were you doing?”
Well, we had–– of course you had the little villages down at Chu Lai and the guys would go
down there and have a good time and of course they’d come back with a VD. So we had a pretty
healthy supply of penicillin on, on hand and then if guys couldn’t take penicillin, they had
antibiotics like tetracycline and that type of thing that we used to–– and we had–– the aid station
was open for, for cuts and bruises and you know, minor wounds and taking sutures out, and you
know, all that kind of thing. So that’s what we did on a day-to-day–– on a day-to-day basis. We
inspected–– another silly story but we inspected all–– our job was to inspect all the latrines on
Hill 69. There were probably, oh I’m guessing there were probably a dozen or six, six to 12
latrines. And some of the guys that we had on duty for the inspection and cleaning these latrines–
– the medics were just overseers, they didn’t, we didn’t actually had to do this. We needed to
make sure they burned the stuff and, and all that. And then one time, one of the medics got a
�hold of some methyl salicylate. I don’t know if you know what that is. You ever smell
wintergreen?
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
That’s the wintergreen oil and that’s what you put on, you know, swellings and that the heat
makes it, makes it heat. Makes it warm and it reduces swelling and all that stuff. Well, one of the
medics thought it would be funny if we sprinkled some of that on the officer’s latrine seats, and
we got in big time trouble for that. You know, they came, they came right at us, you know,
wanted to know who it was. Well of course we didn’t–– we didn’t know who did it and of course
whoever did it didn’t–– didn’t volunteer that they did it. So we got a severe reprimand that this
would not happen again, you know, so. So, but that was funny. So that was–– that was life on the
hill, you know.
Interviewer: “Now when the units out in the field took casualties, would they come to your
aid station or would they get taken to Chu Lai or something?”
We had a–– we had a helip- helicopter pad right there. If they weren’t too serious, you know,
injuries–- cuts, and, you know, or you know, whatever–– they would land there, then we would
go up, you know, kind of like they see on M.A.S.H. We would go up and, with a Jeep and then
bring them back to the aid station, evaluate them, and if they needed to go further from there we
would take ‘em by ambulance or by Jeep from there into the Chu Lai hospital, you know, just
down the road from us. So, yep. (1:41:20).
Interviewer: “Alright, and then you also did some work out in, in the community from
there?”
Yes. That was–– that was a really good thing that we, that we ended up doing. Later–– later in
my tour, probably during the summer and it was hot, it was really hot and we did these
MEDCAPs which is Medical Civic Action Programs, where we would go into a village and we
would set up a mini aid station. And we would bring in the, the, the people from the village–– the
kids–– if they had any ailments, we would try to–– we would give them medication. Most of
them came in with, with dental problems. A lot of it self-inflicted dental problems. They would
chew a narcotic called Betel Nut and they would chew that–– it turned their gums red, their teeth
red, and they would chew that to numb the pain in their mouth from their, from their rotted
teeth, you know. Especially the older people, the senior’s. And of course we couldn’t do
anything about, about that. We’d give them–– we’d give them aspirin or we’d give ‘em Tylenol
or whatever to try to kill the pain, but I think it helped a lot and then one time we were in a
village and it was late in the afternoon. We’d gone through the villagers and helped them, you
know, with medication and minor injuries and that type of thing, and the–– and the chief of the
�village came up to us, and we’d had our interpreter with us. He says “I’d like you to have–– we’d
like to give you dinner.” He said, “Okay, he’d like to give us dinner.” So we said, “Yeah we can–
– we can do that.” We had our Jeeps, we were–– it was a drivable thing, you know, where we
take our supplies––
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
–– with us. So we stayed for dinner and the interpreter–– I think he was pulling our chain, maybe
he wasn’t, but he said, after the dinner he said “How’d you like the meat?” We said “Oh well it
was–– wasn’t too bad.” He said “Well those were some old dogs in the village that they had left
over and then they, they decided to cook them up and serve them to you with––” You know, he
was kind of smiling a little bit, but I don’t think it was. You know, but they did–– they did eat–that was considered a delicacy over there. That was–– dog was considered a delicacy. (1:44:01).
Interviewer: “Alright–”
So.
Interviewer: “–– and did your system complain about the meal later?”
Can’t remember. Yeah, I think it probably did because it was rich food, was highly spiced food,
and yeah it was–– we had a couple guys from the southwest on our base camp and they planted a
garden, and they planted jalapeno peppers, you know, and all the hot peppers. And so they would
eat that to spice up their food while they were on the hill. And yeah, they would spend the
morning in the latrine, the next day, you know, getting rid of that hot food.
Interviewer: “So, alright. Now one of the kind of standard things people in Vietnam, was
they would get an R&R. They’d get to go leave the country for a while and go somewhere
else and––”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “–– did you get that? And where did you go?”
Yeah I was–– I was very lucky. I had signed up to go to–– you sign up where you want to go.
You could go to Thailand, you could go to Bangkok, Thailand. You could go to Japan, you could
go to Australia, and you could go to Hawaii. Most of the married guys that were there ended up
going to Hawaii and they flew their–– their wives flew over to meet ‘em in Hawaii. So we didn’t
mess with going to Hawaii. It would’ve been nice but we didn’t mess with that. So, I signed up
to go to, to Australia, and I think it was in April of that year I went–– I was able to go to
�Australia. They–– they took us by Braniff International Airlines from Da Nang to the north part
of Australia. I can’t think of the name of it, a city there, to refuel. And while they were
refuelling, they had to have the plane emptied of soldiers. We all had to get off the airplane. So
they took us off–– they were concerned about drugs. You know, marijuana and whatever else.
They took us off three at a time, three seats across. They took us off three at a time, they had
MPs there at the airport, and they searched our seats, they searched us, and then they let us off
the airplane. It took quite a while for 160 guys to get off the airplane and, and they refueled and
it was northern tip of Australia––
Interviewer: “Like Townsville–– Townsville or––”
No, it was––
Interviewer: “Darwin, which is in the middle [of the north coast] of the country?” (1:46:45).
Yeah. No, this was at the tip on the, on the–– I can’t––
Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah. It’s closest to kind of New Guinea sort of thing but––”
Yes, right up at the top. And then they–– we flew from there to, to Sydney, Australia. Then they
inspected us again. They did the same thing. You know, oh man. You know, this is what it’s
going to be like, what’s it going to be like when we get off, you know. We had–– they had
booked us a hotel in downtown Sydney and it was fabulous. It was absolutely–– the Australians
love the Americans, you know, and the–– I think the Americans love the Australians, and we
had–– we had a few down the street from us, our hotel, there was a park and they had a few
people demonstrating down there but nothing real–– real serious. Nothing’s–– nothing violent,
you know. And then, what the Australians–– what the Australians did–– well I, I was lucky. I
had gone to a bar, like the first night I was there, downtown Sydney, and I had met this Navy guy
that had been there for three weeks. So, he knew the lay of the land in Sydney. And he says,
“Okay.” He said, “Guys write this down.” So we were sitting at a table, having drinks, and he
wanted us–– he wrote down all the places in Sydney that were giving free drinks to the U.S.
Military. And they would open their clubs, you know these, these, you know, these private clubs.
They would open them and they–– they had discos then, you know. That you had to pay to get
into. And he gave us a list of all those places to go to, where we could get free drinks, you know,
listen to music, you know, have a great time, and they also–- the secretaries and the, and the girls
downtown, that work downtown, they would let them in, you know, for happy hour as well. So,
we got to meet a lot of people, you know, and we had a–– we had an absolutely fantastic time
down in–– and we went into the country without a passport because, you know, we went in as––
on with military orders–– (1:49:16).
�Interviewer: “Right.”
–– you know, so. We left. We left the country, went back to Vietnam and then a month–– a
couple months later I said “Gee, I’d really like to go back there again.” And I found some of the
guys were actually taking a leave. You could–– you had accrued some leave time, you know, so I
said “Well I want to go back to Australia.” So they said “Okay, if you know–– if you go back to
Australia this time, as a civilian, not a military, you had to have a passport.” Oh, crap. So I said
“Okay, what do I need? What do I need to do to get a passport?” “Well you have to apply, you
have to send it in, and you have to go to Saigon and go to the Australian Embassy and get a Visa.
I thought, “Oh gee.” I mean it’s a long ways from, it’s a long way from Chu Lai to Saigon and,
and then we had to–– we had to take military flights down there, which I did. And then I think
the Vung Tau was the place where the–– some of the flights took out of for, for the R&R’s, so I
got my–– I went to the Australian Embassy, I got, got my Visa, my passport. Went to the
Australian Embassy, got my Visa, you know, was right–– it was right near the, the U.S. Embassy
in, in Saigon. The one they showed the pictures of when everybody was leaving and everything
and it’s one that was–– was run over almost during Tet. There were still a lot of guards there––
there was a lot of, a lot of damage there, so. But they held it for what, six hours or something like
that? They held the U.S. Embassy for six hours and so I went back to the base of the–– where
their flights were going out of. And it was–– I could only go on standby, if anybody canceled.
Well, of course, I didn’t. I didn’t go. I didn’t get to get on any flights to Australia. So I’m two––
two days into this seven day leave and I’m thinking “Got five days left, what can I do?” So they
said “Well you can go to–– you can go to some other country.” I said “Okay, where can I go?”
They said “Well, you could go to Taipei, Taiwan.” I said “Oh, interesting.” All by myself––
wasn’t with anybody–– any other military guys. So, I caught a Northwest Orient flight out of the
airport to Taipei, Taiwan. All by myself and went to Taipei. Had the best pizza I think I’ve ever
had in my life in Taipei and didn’t really–– had civilian clothes, didn’t really dress in military. I
think they knew I was military, but didn’t–– didn’t dress that way. But you know, toward the––
toward the countryside, got–– took, took taxis out to–– I said “Take me to a park where there’s
waterfalls.” They take me to a place where there’s waterfalls and, and all of that and toured the––
toured Taipei a little bit, you know, so, it was–– it was fun. It was fun. (1:52:37).
Interviewer: “Okay. Now, did you stay a full year in Vietnam?”
Yes. I landed there–– I think we landed there on the 22nd of October, a year and two days since
I’d gone into the army and then, I think I rotated out the 1st of October 1968. So I was literally in
the army for, for two years.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you counting down the days to––”
Oh yes.
�Interviewer: “–– to leave?”
Yes. I’m glad you brought that up. Yes, we were–– everybody was–– everybody had a short
timer calendar. Okay, and this was my short timer calendar. Can you see that?
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so you got your, your army helmet there and the boots
underneath––”
Yep. Yep––
Interviewer: “–– counting down the days.”
–– and I had First of the 46th written on the back here, but yeah it was–– you colored in
everyday and then you became next. That was on September 30th, so. I put Red Cross girls down
here. I don’t know why I put that down there, but who knows. It was probably part of the thing
when we had the USO come to the base and the USO troops would come in and they would give
us some entertainment, so.
Interviewer: “Well there were Red Cross girls or, then in previous wars they were called
Donut Dollies sometimes, but there were–– there were women volunteers who would go
out. Did you ever see any of those in Vietnam?”
No–– yeah I did, but they never went out in the field with us. (1:54:13).
Interviewer: “Well no––”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “–– that was not a part of it. They would come to the bases or whatever. Yeah.”
So we were–– you were a short timer. How short can you get? So that’s–– that’s what we had
and the other thing is of–– this is an actual–– in our, on our Hill 69 ths was an actual flag that
flew over our med station on the hill, and that was a combat–– combat medical badge that
somebody had gone to a village and had made up for us. You know, so they took our CMBs and
made that white plastic thing, so. I forgot that I had it.I was going through some stuff and––
Interviewer: “There it was.”
–– it’s still in pretty good shape.
�Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, now are there other things that, that happened in, in Vietnam
that kind of stand out in your memory or things that you haven’t covered? Check your
notes there if you’d like.”
Yeah. I’ll check my notes quickly but yeah, I pretty much covered a lot of the stuff that, that––
with your help–– that I had gone through, so. It was funny our–– when we were deploying out of
Fort Hood, our Sergeant was a–– we called him a lifer. He was in–– he had been in for five and
three-quarters years, you know, so, the guys did not like him. He gave us a hard time. In fact, it
was kind of interesting. We had–– we had ministers come on the base and come to our, our area,
where we were, our–– our bunks were and stuff. You know, are in at Fort Hood and anybody––
they would announce it, you know, over the intercom system “anybody wants to see a Catholic
priest or a Lutheran minister” or whatever. And apparently the–– the clergy would go through
the list, you know, of people that were there on the–– at that time. And they came on my name,
which was my last name, which was Rosin. And I was–– my last name is spelled with an i-n and
the Jewish people spelled their name with an e-n. R-o-s-e-n. So every time a rabbi would come
on the base, you know, they would call me over to the, to the–– to the office and I’d have to go
over there and I said “Sorry, Rabbi, that I’m not a…” You know, I’m not––
Interviewer: “Not Jewish.”
–– not Jewish. But every time they would–– every time they would do that and you think, I think
“Sergeant, you know–– this is the third time this has happened.” You know, “Oh, I forgot.” You
know that kind of thing, so. But he left. He actually got out of the army before we deployed to
Vietnam, so. So. I didn’t tell you about the other thing. Before we were–– the night before we
left, did I say about we all went to the PX and–– (1:57:38).
Interviewer: “You don’t–– not on camera.”
Okay. Not on camera. Okay, we all–– the night before we were going to leave Fort Hood, we all
went to the PX. We had gone to the bar and got, you know, a few beers in us. Then after that we
went to the PX and we said “Now what can we do that would be different?” So we said, “Oh!
Lady Clairol.” You know, hair dye. So we went–– we went and picked up boxes of Lady Clairol
hair dye and there were, there were six of us. I dyed my hair blonde, completely blonde. One
guy, Ray Jones, had pink hair. Another guy had blue hair, another guy had silver hair, you know,
another guy had blonde hair. So, we went up the next morning, we had to–– every morning he
went off a reveille–– and they called your attention. When they showed the colors we had to take
off our hat, you know, and the Sergeant was standing there and he looked and he looked again.
He did a double take, you know, he says “You can’t do that.” We said “Well, it’s done.” You
know, we did it. He’s–– he was really flustered. He didn’t know–– he didn’t know if it was legal
�military wise to do that or not. So, a little while later he came back to us, he said “You guys are
going to have to go to headquarters and get new IDs taken.” “What?” “You know, yeah. You
have a different hair color. It’s not the same hair color that you have on your ID, so you’re going
to have to get new IDs taken.” The guy–– one guy says “Well what about–– what happens when
our hair grows out?” “Well, just keep your other ID and you can use that at that time.” So, it was
hilarious, you know, we had a–– we had a really good time. And then in the three weeks we took
the ship over, just before we landed, we all got haircuts, you know, before we landed in Vietnam
and by that time the blonde hair was, was pretty well–– was pretty well gone but it was, it was
hilarious. So, we had a good–– we had a good time. So, you gotta–– you gotta do those things,
you know. The guys–– guys–– and we all knew each other. You know, we had gone through–– a
lot of us had gone through basic together and everything else, so. And that was another great
thing, we went over as a battalion so we all trusted each other and then they trusted me as their
medic, I trusted them as having my back, you know, when we needed too and the confidence
level ramped up a little bit after I delivered the baby. You know, the guys were very, very happy
that–– that I was with them and they were very confident of what I could do. So that–– that
helped that situation a lot. (2:00:42).
Interviewer: “Okay.”
So we had–– a lot of times at night we would be sleeping or whatever and next morning the guys
would come to me and that. One guy, one morning, came to me and says, he says, “Doc, I got a–
– I got a Tootsie Roll in my mouth.” I said, “What? Where’d you get a Tootsie Roll?” He said,
“Well I don’t think it’s a Tootsie Roll.” So during the night we were sleeping in a very wet area,
on the side of a hill, and a leech had crawled in his mouth and his whole front of his lip on the
inside, there was a leech in his mouth. So he said, “Doc, you gotta get rid of it.” I said, “Okay.”
Usually we–– when the leeches, if you touch them with a cigarette butt they would, they would
let go. So we–– this, then we had the, what they called, the bug juice. The stuff that you put on,
you know, like Off, you know, and it was pretty strong stuff. So I said, “Well” whatever his
name was, I said, “The only thing that I can do is, you’re going to have to grin and bear it. I’m
going to put some of this bug juice on that thing, you know?” And as soon as I hit it with the bug
juice it–– it, it let go. And, so yeah. So yeah that was where–– those were interesting, those are
interesting times. And then one night we were walking on patrol. We’re on one hill and then–– it
was moonlight–– we could see another group of guys walking the other direction, on another hill
maybe 100 yards away, you know, a column of guys. And I asked one of the guys, I said, “Who
are they?” They said, “Oh. They’re not us.” You know, it must have been–– it must have been
the NVA over there. We never–– never had an issue with them but they were, they were–– they
were night walking just like we were doing, so. So yeah. (2:02:54).
Interviewer: “And when you were living in the base camp, would that ever get hit with
mortars or rockets or anything like that?”
�Well, the–– yeah. The–– the night we were supposed to leave the country, the 30th of September.
So the 29th of September on base camp, on Hill 69, we turned in our weapons because we
wouldn’t be needing them anymore. We turned ‘em all in and we got ready to go. Got ready to
pack and then one of the guys said, he says, “Wow.” He said, “You don’t wanna–– you don’t
wanna go to, to the airport.” He said, “The Chu Lai airport,” he says–– or Da Nang, wherever we
were going. I guess it was Da Nang. He said, “They’re putting the guys–– all the army guys are
being put to duty down there. They’re either painting, they’re doing KP, you know, they’re
cleaning, cleaning latrines, they’re doing all this stuff for the people that I just left the day
before.” You know, I said, “No, we don’t wanna do that.” So we said, okay, what we’ll do is
spend the night here on Hill 69. One more night shouldn’t be a problem, you know. So, about,
about midnight that night we start hearing small arms fire. And then we got–– then we saw
mortars were incoming into this hill, which had never been attacked the whole year that we were
there. So, they snuck in through some areas. The Viet Cong snuck in, they had satchel charges
with them. They blew up one end of the, of the cook's place, where they were staying, you know
their–– their hut–– and they were hurt. They were hurt so we had, we had to treat those guys.
We’re saying–– we’re there, no weapons, you know, didn’t have any extra weapons, you know.
The NVA was–– or the Viet Cong were coming in. They were trying to overrun the hill. Well,
they fought ‘em back. They were hoped–– they were–– they were hoping for, since we were––
we were leaving the country or had left the hill–– the experienced troops that had been there a
year, that they could overrun it without any trouble. So––
Interviewer: “Were there new guys there manning the perimeter?”
New guys that had just got there. They got indoctrinated real quick.
Interviewer: “So did the whole battalion worth of people go at the same time or did they do
you in staggered groups or not––”
Yeah. There was probably 50 of us that went at one time. (2:05:49).
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
We didn’t do everybody, but enough. And we said later, we said–– we wrote these guys. They
said, “How did they–– how did they determine this?” Well, they said they went and interrogated
the people that were in these, this village, just outside the gate. And they had apparently given
the Viet Cong information that we had–– we had left the hill. The experienced troops had left the
hill, they could overrun it, you know, if they wanted to. So, yeah. That was–– so the night before
I flew home, all hell broke loose. But luckily, none of us got hurt , that were leaving. And those
that got hurt, weren’t real serious, you know, so. Yeah. It was, it was an––
�–– interesting, interesting time.
Interviewer: “Alright. So the next day you successfully get out.”
We successfully get out and when the–– when the Braniff International 707 lifted off the tarmac
in Da Nang, you heard the biggest cheer you ever heard in your life. So. We flew to Japan and
refueled and then we got everybody off the airplane again. And then, then we flew to Seattle,
Washington. We–– we got out of the army at Fort Lewis in Seattle, so.
Interviewer: “Okay. And then how did you get home from there?”
There–– then we flew. We flew home from Seattle to Minneapolis and then [from] Minneapolis I
went to Bay City and a lot of guys–– a couple of guys came to here to Grand Rapids. So.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Did you fly in uniform or in civilian clothes?”
Yes, we flew in uniform. We didn’t have–– I didn’t have any civilian clothes at that time. So one
interesting thing was they promised you a steak dinner when you landed at Fort Lewis.
“Welcome back to the U.S.” So, we stood in line–– four o’clock in the morning–– and we stood
in line at this mess hall at Fort Lewis. And they–– I saw them take the steaks out of the freezer,
literally, and throw ‘em on the grill. You know, on the hot griddle and that was our steak dinner.
You know. And it was good, you know, it was good. Potatoes and, and all that stuff. And you
know we–– guys didn’t feel real good, you know, because we weren’t used to eating that stuff.
After they, you know, after they fed us that meal. That was our breakfast. So I had some–– some
compazine tablets along so I–– still being the medic–– I handed those out to some of the guys
that didn’t feel good, so. So–– (2:08:40).
Interviewer: “Alright.”
–– yeah.
Interviewer: “So, and then once you get back home, what do you do?”
Well, once I got back home I went–– I took a few weeks off–– then I went back to work for the
company that I’d worked for before I went to Vietnam. And they actually, or actually went––
before I went in the service–– the two years that I spent in the Army, they gave me credit for––
�as, as time within the–– for the company. So the pension and everything was, went on from
there.
Interviewer: “What kind of work were you doing for them?”
Well, I started out as a draftsman in the engineering department and then went into the sales
layout department where–– the company that I worked for sold commercial bakery equipment to
companies like Nabisco and Pepperidge Farms and Keebler. The big long ovens and the–– that––
and the bread lines also to Tasty Bread and all that type of thing. So I graduated from there, or
not graduated, I went up in the company and I eventually became a salesman in the cookies and
crackers side of the business and sold that equipment. Traveled all over the country, traveled to
Europe, traveled to Mexico and selling–– selling bakery equipment. My biggest accounts were
Pepperidge and Keebler. Got to know how to make Goldfish crackers. So. And then in 1995
when I was working there, one of my bosses came up to me and said, “We’ve been contacted by
Bien Hoa sugar company in Vietnam and they want to put an American cookie line into their
plant in Vietnam. I said, “Okay, well guys,” I said, “been there and done that. I don’t really
wanna go back there again.” So we went back and forth for a few weeks and eventually I agreed
to go back to Vietnam in 1995 for ten days, and flew from–– to–– San Francisco and then flew
all the way from San Francisco to Hong Kong. And then flew from Hong Kong into Ho Chi
Minh city, or Saigon in 1995. It was a very interesting experience because when you were in
Hong Kong, it was like being in Las Vegas. You know, the lights of the city and that. Everything
was lit up at night, we took off at night. When we landed in Vietnam it was like total darkness.
There was no lights. Even the city of any–– even the city was not lit up. You know, and we
were–– we were coming in to land and I’m thinking “Where’s the airport?” You know, it’s total
darkness and so, they didn’t give us too hard a time going through customs. We stayed in–– we
stayed in downtown Ho Chi Minh City, I guess it’s called, and just the life–– the lifestyle
difference of the people, you know. They were, they were nice people. They were all very
courteous and nice. We appreciated with Bien Hoa Sugar Company and I–– we had to have
interpreters. I think the people at Bien Hoa could speak English but they wanted–– they only
spoke Vietnamese. You know, so. So we got the order. We built the equipment in Grand Rapids,
here, and the ovens and the forming machines for the cookies. And before they shipped ‘em over
to Vietnam, they wanted to send their representatives from the factory over here to test the
equipment. (2:12:51).
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
So they sent their representatives over and we had a lab and we set the equipment up, we ran it,
we made cookies. So they were all happy. One morning I went in there into the lab and I could
see feet out from under one of the machines. I said, “What is he doing?” So, you know, I don’t
know who they had negotiated or purchased the equipment from in the past, but they were––
�there was a guy in there with an electric engraver and he was engraving in the frame of the
machine, underneath, a code that so they were sure that when the machine got over there, that it
was the same machine that we tested over here. So, and then it was funny because one of the lab
managers, he had to pick him up every morning at the hotel and he said, “Oh,” he said, “those
guys” he said, “that’s all they did was watch X-rated movies.” We had to pay for this. We had
agreed that we would pay for this and then they would, they would go to the supermarket and
they would buy all fresh fruit. That’s all they would eat. They were vegetarians. That’s all they
would eat, is no, no meat. So.
Interviewer: “Did any of them know that you had been in Vietnam?”
Yes. I think they did. Yeah, I think they did. They knew it and in ‘95 when I was over there, you
know, these big deuce-and-a-half’s–– these big trucks that they ran–– they were still running
them. The diesels were still running. And a couple of ‘em had–– going down the road with
telephone poles from one end of the truck to the other, out the back, right next to the–– right next
to the driver. There was no way he could see to the right when he was driving this truck, you
know. There you go down, down the highway with these–– with these trucks. So. But the people
were very nice over there. They were very courteous. There was no animosity towards the
Americans, you know, at that time. So, you know, it wasn’t bad.
Interviewer: “They won.”
What’s that?
Interviewer: “They won. Be generous at that point.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, so look back at the time that you spent in the service. What do you
think you took out of that or how did that affect you?”
Well, I think what I took out of there was some friendships that I made with the guys. You see
the world from a different perspective, you know. You look at things differently. You look at
what you have differently. All the conveniences you have–– ice cream, you know. You look at
those things. You know, cars and dental care. You know, you look at–– you look at all those
things and you’re very thankful that what you have here. And you still feel, you know, you feel
sorry for those people over there, that have to go live with that day-to-day. Even though the
communists took that back over again, their lifestyle improved a little bit, but they were still
going down the street–– walking down the street–– there were still live utility wires, you know,
at head level, when you were walking down the street. You know, so. But yeah, like I said earlier
�the code of conduct, I think, was something that we should all live by, you know. And the help
that we gave to those people, you know, stemmed communism for a little while anyway. You
know. And I think that made, personally, and made us feel good and made us all feel good over
there. It was–– there was really not much, you know, objection to being over there by the guys.
They–– they were there to do a job, they did the job, and they came home. So. (2:16:52).
Interviewer: “And was it–– what was the ethnic mix in your battalion? Were there a lot of
black guys or just a few––”
Yeah there was–– I would say we were probably 30 percent black and then there were, there
were some Orientals, you know, as well. There were a few guys from Mexico that were, you
know, are Americans. But mostly it was, it was white guys, you know. So.
Interviewer: “And were there any racial issues that you noticed in the––”
No.
Interviewer: “–– time there?”
No. I didn’t see any racial issues at all when I was there. So––
Interviewer: “Because you were there at the time when Martin Luther King was killed and–
–”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “–– and that kind of stuff. And so, but that was not reverberating at least
where you were?”
No. I remember when––
Interviewer: “Bobby Kennedy––”
Kennedy. Robert Kennedy was killed. You know, that–– which shook everybody up. You know,
and the Martin Luther King thing never, never–– at least I didn’t pay any attention to it, if it was
bad. (2:17:54).
Interviewer: “Well you had other things to worry about at the time––”
Yeah.
�Interviewer: “–– I suppose––”
Right.
Interviewer: “–– but because that was still in the aftermath of well that, that stuff. Where
the stuff was still going on at that point.”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “There was plenty going on. Yeah. Now today are you involved with any
veterans groups or things like that?”
Yeah. I’m involved with the, the Veterans of America group. We meet once a month in Grand
Rapids. We meet at Marge’s Donuts. And I figured I should give back a little bit of my training
that I had from the military, so once a week I volunteer at the VA Health Clinic in Wyoming and
I–– I’m not doing any medical things but I’m in the administrative section where when the
people get back to see their patient advocate or the release of information or the eligibility thing.
I–– I’m kind of the gatekeeper there to let people back. I do that once a week, four hours in the
morning on Wednesdays. Yep.
Interviewer: “Alright. Well you’ve done a fine job for us here today, so thank you very
much for taking the time to share the story.”
Well, thank you for allowing me to do this. I appreciate the opportunity. I’d like to say, when we
came back, you know, just because of the animosity towards the Vietnam veterans–– the
Vietnam War–– we didn’t say too much. You know, but as time goes on now I think it’s
important that the people hear this from a history standpoint. You know, I don’t know if there’s
even–– if they even study the Vietnam War in schools anymore.
Interviewer: “There’s not a lot in the Michigan state high school curriculum.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “You can get a little bit and it depends on what the individual teachers do, but
yeah. Not, not a whole heck of a lot. Yeah.”
But we appreciate–– I appreciate what Grand Valley State University has done to do this and the
veterans that I’ve talked to all appreciate what you guys do. (2:20:01).
��
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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RosinJ2356V
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Rosin, James
Date
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2021-05
Title
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Rosin, James (Interview transcript and video), 2021
Description
An account of the resource
Jim Rosin was born in September 1947 in Bay City, Michigan. Rosin lived there all his adolescent life and graduated from Bay City Central High School in 1965. Upon graduation Rosin went to work for a company in Saginaw, Michigan that sold bakery equipment. However, in the summer of 1966 Rosin was summoned to Detroit where he had to get a physical for the military. Eventually Rosin was cleared for military service. October 20, 1966 was the day Rosin was to report for military duty. He then began the trek down from Bay City to Detroit to then Fort Wayne. Eventually, Rosin and his peers were taken down to Fort Knox in Lexington, Kentucky. Rosin and the rest of his group were eventually split up and Rosin was selected to head to Fort Hood in Texas to complete his basic training. Here Rosin took an aptitude test and was selected to be an Army Medic. In the summer of 1967 Rosin traveled to Vietnam where he served in the 46th Infantry. Because of his time in Vietnam, Rosin was awarded two Bronze Stars. One for putting his obstetric training to use and delivering a baby, and the other for meritorious service. Rosin service ended when he eventually rotated out on October 1st 1968. He returned back home and continued to work for the company selling bakery equipment.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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Moving Image
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d4c24ae5f4c6a7dad0d75296bdd97563.mp4
545dc391bd77a6d6b5755330fe43b4ec
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/299438e5db3d5c1a753737e33eb8dfd0.pdf
70866fdf5f04abb26cf7a7250ca78b80
PDF Text
Text
Rensi, Edward
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee’s Name: Edward Rensi
Length of Interview: (1:00:28)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Edward Rensi of Woodsfield, Ohio and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay, start off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and
when were you born?”
I was born in– Pardon me, I was born December the 7th, 1925 in a small town called Parlett.
Ohio.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you grow up there or did you move around?”
No, in fact my mother came to her mother’s house to have me, you know, and after about six
weeks we moved to a small town called Wintersville, Ohio. So actually you might as well say I
was raised in Wintersville, Ohio. (00:52)
Interviewer: “Alright, and what was your family doing for a living?”
My dad was a coal miner and also he was on the rail force for a while, railroad– Basically he was
a miner, coal miner.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what part of Ohio were you in?”
It was the eastern part of Ohio, Jefferson country.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Alright, now did your father have steady work during the depression or was
that on and off?”
No the depression was rather tough, you know it was really something but we survived and that’s
about it.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how many kids were in the family?”
Just another brother.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?”
Yes I do, I remember vividly. I was 16 years old and my uncle and dad and cousin we always
went fishing walleye and it was– Even though that it was that time of the year we were still
fishing for walleye. (2:00) Okay we were fishing and we broke camp, we had a cabin, and we
broke camp and we were going home and then we heard over the radio that Japs attacked it and
my dad and uncle well they just said– They just said “Well that won’t last long.” And my cousin,
he was four years older than I was and they said “Well maybe Jim will go the service but Ed he
won’t have to, that’s for sure.” And they just took it as a grain of salt, like most of them they
thought the Japs would be a pushover and they would even joke about it say “If we see any Japs
don’t forget we’ll run over them.” They were really joking about it, it was really serious.
Interviewer: “Alright, now did life change at all after the war started, because it’s gonna be
a while before you go in the service yourself?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So what changes were there in your community or your area?”
Well most things was the regulations, you know naturally since the war they’ve got restrictions
and stuff like that you know but other than that it just seemed like what it would be, you know.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you decide to– Did you consider enlisting or did you just wait
until Uncle Sam called you?”
Well I wanted to enlist right away, you know but my dad and uncle both they just told me to–
You know get on me and tell me, in fact after I did sign up for– And I always wanted– They
didn’t call me, see I was born in December, okay. So that was the latter part so the draft board
didn’t hear any notice from them, you know and I kept telling them “Maybe I ought to go up
there and check on it, they’re not calling me yet.” And boy they’d get on me, they’d give me hell
they’d say “You just sit tight, they’ll call you.” So finally– They finally did call me.
Interviewer: “So when did you get your draft notice?”
Well really I can’t tell you when I got my draft notice for sure, you know but I can tell you when
I was called up.
Interviewer: “Right, yeah.” (4:13)
Was March of 14th, 1944.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay so at that point now, let’s see were you 19 then or still– Let’s see,
you’re still 18.”
Yeah, 18 that’s right.
Interviewer: “That’s right cause it’ll be December of ‘43 that you turn 18.”
I’d be 19 that following– Yeah.
Interviewer: “Right, okay so you’re still 18. Okay, so you didn’t really have to wait too long
after your 18th birthday.
�Rensi, Edward
No, not really yeah.
Interviewer: “They caught up with you pretty quickly, okay now where did you report to
first?”
Well first report was small town Cadiz, Ohio and they took us to Cleveland for, you know our
introduction there.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you– How did you wind up in the service branch that you
joined, I guess which branch of the service did you enter?”
The Navy, I was in the Navy but I was considered a selected volunteer. Selected, I have a choice,
so I picked the Navy.
Interviewer: “Okay, now why did you pick the Navy?” (5:17)
Well I just thought it’d be better and my dad and uncle they were like my tutors, you know and
they more or less said the Navy because my uncle, the uncle I’m telling you about, he was in
World War I and so he probably knew what it was like to be on the ground, you know so he said
that and I took it.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you sign up for the Navy and then where do they send you
for training?”
Great Lakes Naval Training Station, Chicago.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how did you get there?”
By bus.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Okay so you took a bus from Cleveland to Chicago?”
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t take a train to Chicago and then a bus?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and describe what basic training was like.”
Boy it was something different I’ll tell you that, little country boy you know, once you’re with a
group of fellows all at once you know, close quarters you know, and– But I fell in with it you
know I thought it would really affect me but I don’t know I just did what I had to do, you know.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of stuff did you do in training?” (6:38)
Well we’d have a lot of physical running and calisthenics and things like that.
Interviewer: “Okay, now it’s the Navy so did you have to learn how to tie knots or that
kind of–”
Yeah we had– Not too much of that, yeah and we had recognition, you know of enemy ships,
aircraft, things like that visual training.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did they do a fire fighting drill?”
We had that, in fact we went to fire fighting school.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what did that consist of?”
�Rensi, Edward
Well that was something, we went to actual happenings, you know we was in gear and we had
nozzles and everything and they had fires like we had to spray in front of us, actual fire training.
Interviewer: “Okay, and let’s see did they have you try gas masks or breathing
equipment?”
Yeah, we had that too, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how did the drill instructors treat you?”
With discipline you know, yeah.
Interviewer: “But were they, I mean–”
They weren’t mean, no.
Interviewer: “Okay, so they did things for a reason?” (7:51)
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how long did basic training last?”
From March until– Damn there it goes now, let’s see–
Interviewer: “Well did you–”
Okay after our basic we get on a troop train and about six weeks about it was, so after our basic
we get on a troop train and we went to California, called Camp Shoemaker. It was an
embarkation point where they gathered and then when they’re ready to ship, when they need
people they draw from there. So we were there for, oh I bet you over a month and a half, that was
�Rensi, Edward
really good duty then. We had it made, nothing to do really, you know so we’d go to Frisco, San
Jose, and you know had a good time, you know.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how were you able to travel around, did they run buses from the
camp?”
Yeah buses, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright but you didn’t really have to do– Did you have any work to do,
did you ever get KP or clean up the place?”
Yeah I’m trying to think what I did, yeah we had to take care of the barracks like that, I think I
worked in a post office for a while and also, like I said, we used to have for about six weeks or
maybe more than that, we even went to Oakland and tried to get a job, get some extra spending
money, that was great.
Interviewer: “Alright so by the– So when then do you actually ship out, that’s in June?”
(9:43)
Yeah, yeah had to be June, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of ship do you go on?”
It was a troop transport but I can’t tell you the name of it now.
Interviewer: “Do you have an idea of how many men were on it?”
Oh there was– Had to be 12 to 1,400 at least.
Interviewer: “Okay, now was this like a Liberty Ship or a Victory Ship or was it bigger
than that?”
�Rensi, Edward
It might’ve been called a U.S.S. Scott but I wouldn’t say that’s right or not but something like
that, it was a big one yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now and then when you left San Francisco did people get seasick?”
Oh boy, that was one of the bad features, I’ll tell you that was– That wasn’t a very good
experience on that troopship just like flies packed on, and boy you got there in the morning first
thing you want to do is get the hell up on the top deck cause boy there’s– And it’s all kinds of
spray and everything you know from everybody– Not everyone but everyone was really heaving.
Interviewer: “Alright, so did you get seasick?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, a lot of guys say they don’t and I’m never sure I believe them, so okay
that’s one for you. Alright, and did your ship sail with an escort or were you by yourself?”
(11:10)
Oh yeah, yeah we had an escort, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then so when you leave California, what’s your next stop?”
Eniwetok, Marshall Islands.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you don’t get to visit Hawaii or anything like that.”
Well no not in a troop transport like that, we– Directly there.
Interviewer: “Alright, let’s see now when you go out to Eniwetok, let’s see did you cross the
equator or the dateline yet?”
�Rensi, Edward
Well when we did cross, this was when– Let me think now.
Interviewer: “Well because when you’re a troop transport I don’t know if they mark that
kind of thing.”
No, I think after we got to Eniwetok when we headed back to the Marshall– I mean Saipan the
Marianas, I think that’s the time we went through the equator and then that’s when we went
through that ceremony, that was something I’ll tell you man.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so let’s kind of back up, so basically– Do you have a sense of
how long it took you to get from San Francisco to Eniwetok?”
No I don’t, it’s probably in my cruise book but I don’t know.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the weather like once you–”
The weather must have been normal because, you know nothing stood out in my memory about
the weather, yeah. (12:37)
Interviewer: “Alright, and did people get used to being at sea? So did they stop all getting
sick or did people–”
Yeah, before we got there it tapered off, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and when you get to Eniwetok do you get to go ashore?”
Oh no, no, no, no.
Interviewer: “Okay, probably not a lot to do there anyway but–”
�Rensi, Edward
Yeah, right.
Interviewer: “Okay, so how long do you think you were in port at Eniwetok?”
Well not very long, when we got on the ship they had just rope ladders and we had to climb up
the rope ladders with our gear, you know to get on the ship.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what ship were you assigned to?”
That’s when I got to California.
Interviewer: “Okay, and describe the California, if someone doesn’t know what that was,
what kind of ship was it?”
It’s a battleship and it was 600 and some feet long– I’ve got the tons and everything, it had a 14
inch main battery and five inch 20 millimeters and 40 millimeters armaments, so it was heavily
armed you know. (13:45)
Interviewer: “Alright, and what kind of history did it have?”
Well it’s– It was an old ship and it was at Pearl Harbor December the 7th, it was partially sunk, it
was brought up and taken back to Bremerton, Washington and retreated, and that was it.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and so you’re now joining the ship’s complement.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when you join the California, what is your job when you get
there?”
�Rensi, Edward
Well at first cleaning compartments, you know our division, it was division A, we were assigned
to our division and cleaning compartments for a while, you know and I can’t tell you how long
before I was assigned to the air compressors, wasn’t very long. One of the other fellas that was
there before, you know petty officers, would take me under his wing and teach me that.
Interviewer: “Okay, so when you came on there– Because you didn’t have any specialized
training at all.”
Oh no.
Interviewer: “You were just an ordinary seaman.”
Oh a little kid, yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah, okay now what proportion of the crew do you think were new guys,
were there a lot of young guys there?” (15:03)
That’s a good question, I’d say that basically we were just replacements, you know and I’d say
with a small percentage at that time, small percentage.
Interviewer: “So a lot of the crewmen had been with the ship for a while?”
Oh yes, yes definitely, yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay so you join the ship and then you head out to sea and where
are you going when you leave Eniwetok?”
Well there’s Saipan, finishing up Saipan.
Interviewer: “Right, so you’re going up to the Marianas. So this is the point then when you
cross the equator and you have the ceremony?”
�Rensi, Edward
It had to be before that, between that Eniwetok and gone back to Marianas, I’ll have to look it up
but definitely. Yeah that was quite a thing, you know you become a shell back then, boy you take
a beating then too I’ll tell you that is some ceremony, I’ll tell you and then we crossed the
equator more than once. The second time we were shellback, you know we were cocky, you
know you could even come to an officer then like me being a fireman first– Second class man
and make him do simple things, you know that was something.
Interviewer: “Okay, so it’s kind of like a giant fraternity hazing?”
Oh yeah we’re really hazing and not to forget one time this officer he was really cocky and he
didn’t want to go through it, you know he tried to say stop. They had a gauntlet, a bunch of
seamen like that and they had canvas bags soaked– You know they’d be soaked with water and
you’d run through that and you better run damn fast because they beat the hell out of you and
this guy tried to fight it, this officer, they got him down and beat the hell out of him. (17:00) Boy
and everybody was just clapping because he was trying to be a big time officer, but they had to
go through it too, and you had to cross through a sleeve, a big canvas sleeve and they had a fire
hose, when you’d come out it hit you and they had all kinds of stuff in there like gooey stuff, you
had to crawl through there and as soon as you come out they hit you with the fire hose and knock
you right down, it was quite a ceremony.
Interviewer: “Right, okay so you survived all that.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, so when you got to the Marianas did the ship do any firing there?”
Oh yeah that’s what is was we was– Shit, I want to say we were shelling– At first it was, it was
Saipan, Tinian, then Guam and we’d just soften the beach that’s our battleship’s main objective
to shell the beach and one time we had a sugar refinery and one time we had an ammunition
�Rensi, Edward
dumping, you know that was odd to make it a little easier for the Marines when they landed, you
know.
Interviewer: “Right, okay and the fighting on Saipan went on for a while, I mean Guam
and Tinian were pretty quick.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “So did you do any ground support– Did you do any supporting fire after the
Marines landed on Saipan or were you pretty much done after landing?”
No it was pretty much just more of, you know just cruising, you know yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you were in the Marianas did you see any Japanese
aircraft?” (18:45)
You know I don’t think we did, we had a couple bogeys, I remember that first– About one of the
first– The first month I was there we had a couple at– What a bogey is is that when something’s
reported unknown and you know then you go to battle stations, you know and I remember the
first bogey I got hair stood up on my– Because I had a battle station and you know I kept
wondering when [unintelligible] Little concerned, you know?
Interviewer: “Okay, so a bogey would be an enemy aircraft or at least an unknown
aircraft?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now where was your battle station?”
�Rensi, Edward
I was in the– They say [unintelligible] like a 20 millimeter group, that’s where 20 millimeter
guns are and right off the side they’ve got like a little compartment with an opening and my job
was to hand out the magazines when they needed them.
Interviewer: “Right, okay so you’re basically– You’re kind of– You’re not quite a loader
but you were moving the ammunition, giving ammunition to the loaders.”
Yeah, right but I never had to do it, yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay so that’s kind of your introduction, now how much noise do the
battleship guns make?”
How much what?
Interviewer: “How much noise do the big guns make?” (20:10)
You’ll never believe it, you better have cotton and ear plugs, nowadays they got [unintelligible]
but boy it is something, and oh damn when it was the main batteries ship, 14 inches the whole
ship rocks, yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah, I think after the war a lot of the gunners had hearing problems.”
Oh yeah, I’ll bet a lot of them did, no kidding.
Interviewer: “Okay, so after the Marianas do you go back to the Marshalls or what do you
do after Saipan?”
Let’s see now– Now we were around the Philippines then I think.
Interviewer: “Well Philippines that starts I think in October, so you go–”
�Rensi, Edward
Let’s see, September–
Interviewer: “Now there’s a point in the ship’s history where you had– The California had
a collision with the Tennessee?”
Oh yeah, that’s it we had a– In fact I was on watch I was on watch that night with, I had the
phones on you know and main control says– You know they’ve told us that “We’re having
trouble, the Tennessee is having steering problems, stand by.” You know and pretty soon they
said “Stand by for crash!” And I yelled it, you know so everybody would be up cause a lot of
times even though we’re under gun mounts like that guys are laying down, you know through
night time and so everybody jumped up and got ready and they hit us you know and they tore a
big hole in our, starboard side? I think it was starboard side, tore a big hole up there and it killed
several boys up there too, it ripped a big hole in there.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then how much of a shock was it, you’re standing at your
station, did you get knocked over, did you hang on?” (22:10)
It wasn’t really abrupt it was real just– Saw it like you know boom boom! Like that you know it
wasn’t like–
Interviewer: “Okay, so it was kind of almost grinding into the hull rather than a big
crash.”
You could hear it coming, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, so after the collision where did you go? Where did you go to get the
ship fixed?”
Yeah, after that went to a place called Espiritu Santos, it's New Hebrides Islands, they had a
floating dry dock there, a little one you know so they passed us up there.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Alright, and then while you were in the New Hebrides did they let you go
ashore there?”
Yeah, oh yeah they had a place they called– I forget what it was, anyhow we had it nice there we
could go ashore, have a beer, throw a football, play softball so we were there– I can’t tell you
how long, I can’t remember, but we enjoyed ourselves there.
Interviewer: “Yeah, okay so you get a little bit of a break and– But then your next combat
mission then is going to be for the invasion of the Philippines.”
Philippines, that’s where it was, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, so when you leave the New Hebrides where do you go to join the fleet
or do you meet them just approaching the Philippines? Did you go to the Marshalls or
Palau or any of those places?” (23:45)
I think Palau, I think.
Interviewer: “Yeah because we use that as a launching pad.”
Yeah that’s where we got– Yeah I think that’s where it– And then the Philippines, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright now at this time have you– Has your job on the ship changed,
because initially you’re up there and you’re helping the gunners?”
Yeah, yeah oh yeah, no I’m back in the compressors yeah, we’re with the compressors then.
Interviewer: “Okay, so describe a little bit what your regular job was.”
In doing battle stuff like that we’re with the compressors you know, and one time to show you
how much that main barrel could shoot you– Like that we had a leak and boy on our compressors
�Rensi, Edward
you know, we had water lines up. Boy that was hectic everybody’s running around we finally–
Had wrenches and stuff and we finally got it stopped, you know so that was exciting there that
time.
Interviewer: “Okay, now what were the compressors for?”
Well the low pressure compressor was just for general usage around the ship just when we
needed a little air, like air tools and stuff like that.
Interviewer: “Okay so just for power tools.”
Intermediate would be for heavier equipment stuff like that but the high compressor– High
pressure compressors they would– When a main battery would shoot you they had to blow all
that gas and stuff out like that. (25:28) They had to be damn sure that was out of there because if
they go and try to reload, put a powder keg in there when there was heat there’d be a misfire. So
had to blow that out, that was important.
Interviewer: “Okay so you’re doing ventilation and you’re providing power for air
compressor tools and a lot of other things but you need to push a lot of air.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay, you’re gonna run in with a ship that big in particular that would be a
lot. Okay and then so was your job– What were you actually doing when you’re on watch
with the compressors, are you just looking at dials?”
Yeah, right, yeah you have to have gauges and make sure everything is okay you know. Yeah
and then you had your station, naturally you had to keep it spotless you know, that wasn’t too
bad joining the action unit because regulation was secondary then you know.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Alright, now your ship gets involved in some serious fighting in the
Philippines.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “There’s a battle in the area called the Surigao Straits.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now what do you remember about that?”
Oh boy I remember– Before it happened the chaplain got on the ship and told us about these
cities, he said “We’re gonna have the engagement area.” He said and he actually said this cause
it’s in the book, he said that “Make sure you’re clean, you have a shower and clean clothes on
because there could be infection.” You know he said that, you know really. (27:05) So there’s
probably logic to that really, so anyhow we got thinking– Well I got thinking “Damn” seeing
everything it made you think, little scary for a while.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then when the battle happens what was your experience of it,
are you just down in the hole?”
Yeah I was in– Then I was–
Interviewer: “Were you with the high power compressors or?”
I was with the high power compressors then you know and so I was way down in the hole, down,
way down, way back. So I couldn’t hear much or see much you know, thankful you know, so I
was glad it was all over.
Interviewer: “Do you have an idea of how long the battle actually lasted?”
�Rensi, Edward
You know what, no I don’t think it lasted that long to me.
Interviewer: “Probably not.”
I kept thinking “Boy oh boy when the hell will these lines break?”
Interviewer: “So at that point you’re just doing your job, now could you feel sort of the
rumblings of all the guns firing, do you get some vibration?”
Yeah there’s some vibration even down there yeah, but not like it would be if you were up on
top.
Interviewer: “Right, okay so what did they tell you about the battle afterwards?”
Oh after it was over they come on the P.A system and said “Secure, battle stations secure.” You
know you get to relax and, you know. (29:00)
Interviewer: “And then at what point do you find out what actually happened?”
Well we didn’t know– You know we did get credit for, I think it was a cruiser?
Interviewer: “Cruiser or an old battleship because the Japanese had a bunch of old
battleships there and cruisers, so you think you sank something.”
Yeah, we got scoreboard for something out there and we– See we were the old type too and the
other type–
Interviewer: “The Iowa class.”
Yes, the Iowa class they were new but we did our part.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Right, okay now after that battle did you go up to Leyte Gulf or did you go
up to the area where the landings were?”
Yeah, we had to yeah, right.
Interviewer: “Yeah because there’s pictures of that I think in the ship’s book but by then
the landing has already taken place and the battle was already fought there because that
was the area where the destroyer escorts and things were fighting the big Japanese ships.”
Okay, yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and then–”
Okay, no we– Yeah.
Interviewer: “And that was going on while you were having your battle?” (30:18)
Yeah, right.
Interviewer: “Right, okay and so you– So this is now October of ‘44, do you just stay in the
Philippines area or do you go away and come back? Because you’re engaged with Lingayen
Gulf and that’s January.”
That was January, I remember that yeah.
Interviewer: “So November, December, do you remember where you had Christmas
1944?”
You know I think that’s when we were in the Philippine area but there wasn’t any action cause,
you know, because I remember we had a good Christmas and a real good meal, no interruptions,
and so that must’ve been that going until we got to Lingayen Gulf, that was January.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Yeah, okay let’s talk a little bit about life on the ship, what was your daily
schedule like?”
Well we’d go to our stations of course, you know and we always had– Just always things to do,
shine up and stuff, and the main thing is you make sure everything’s operating, that was the
biggest thing. Just like a watch, you know it’s like a watch you know.
Interviewer: “Well how long would the watch be when you’re on duty?”
About four hours.
Interviewer: “Okay so you have four hours on, and then–”
And then maybe eight hours off, you know and then you’d start and sometimes you’d get to four,
well we had different times for then you know different ones. (32:00) 12 to four, four to eight
and stuff like that and then also after a while too every once and a while we’d have to clean the
compartment be like us firemen’s second one we’d have to clean the compartment for a while,
take turns you know swab it and you know, so we worked.
Interviewer: “Alright, now did you have your own bunk or did you have to share?”
No, we had our own bunks. They were, you know tiered, you know like– You know like three
bunks here, here, and here and then they folded up during the day, folded up and had your flies
cover over it you know then you had the passageway.
Interviewer: “Alright, and how much head room did you have, how much space was
there?”
Not too much, you know I was on the bottom bunk a couple times and you’d, I guess you’d hit
the top, wasn’t too much you know.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Alright, and how do they feed you?”
What?
Interviewer: “How do they feed you, what was the food like and how did you get it?”
I never complained about the food too much, you know but a lot of them did you know, but we
had baked beans sometimes. Our food– That’s one thing we always had food and that what was
in the engagements you know and then we would have whatever we had after that you know, but
no I won’t complain about the food.
Interviewer: “Okay, but you had your own cooks–”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “And that kind of thing.” (33:31)
Oh yeah and have chow lines, you go and line up for chow line you try to get up there as quick
as you could, if you didn’t the chow line would be from here to about maybe a couple hundred
feet long or so.
Interviewer: “Okay, yeah I mean how many men were in the ship’s complement?”
A total of 1,200 I think, yeah 1,200.
Interviewer: “Alright, so then if you’re in the wrong part of the line that can be bad, even if
you’re eating in shifts.”
Yeah, and I forget how many officers there were, you know.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so and then did you have– I mean did they show movies on the
ship or have other entertainment?”
Oh yeah, I mean when we were out of the battlezone, oh yeah. They would have, they called
them smokers you know, and they even had movies certain times, and had boxing matches
sometimes. In fact one of the chief petty officers in our division wanted to train me to box but I
backed out.
Interviewer: “Yeah, that'd be a good idea. Okay, alright yeah so and then I guess how
many men would sleep in the same compartment?”
Good question, well I’d say the whole division would be.
Interviewer: “Okay, so that’s like 40 guys, 50 guys?”
See our A division wasn’t that big, you saw the pictures. (35:04)
Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s true. Okay, alright and of course you would sleep at different
times right because some of you are on watch and some of you aren’t?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so not too bad. Okay, alright so you have a relatively routine life there
for a while after the Leyte battles and then basically describe what happens at Lingayen
Gulf.”
In Lingayen Gulf?
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
�Rensi, Edward
Yeah we were there and I think it was January the 6th, I looked at the book before, I think it was
January 6th and that’s when– That’s when that suicide plane hit us.
Interviewer: “And what part of the ship did it hit?”
It happened at the superstructure around one of the upper control towers and it was really
something.
Interviewer: “And that was close to your old battle station?”
Well yeah, I mean you know when it hit like that the gas and flames and everything, all that stuff
would come down that way you know if it was higher it would’ve hit, you know I was like here
and it was up here more than superstructure where he hit.
Interviewer: “And what happened to the man who replaced you?” (36:30)
Well he was burnt real bad, I mean he didn’t die but he was burnt real bad, but maybe without
that maybe I wouldn’t have been there, he was sticking out or something, anyhow I was at the
same station.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when it hit you were down below right? When the kamikaze hit
you were down at your duty station?”
Yeah I was in my clip room.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then did you feel or hear anything when it hit?”
Oh no I think– Oh when it hit yeah. No I just, you could tell something happened you know I’d
gotten– The information center put out you know we were hit, you know and you could hear
stuff going back and forth but you could, you know but yeah.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Now was the damage just to that one part of the ship where it hit? So you
didn’t have big fires or–”
Oh yeah, oh mammoth fires you know the stuff, oh so many guys got burnt– God, you see those
guys and you talk about blisters, they had blisters like that on them, see them laying around, it
was after [unintelligible] of course, you know and boy what a smell, flesh.
Interviewer: “Alright, and did it take a while to put the fires out? Was there–”
They did a good job, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you just stay at your post the whole time?”
Oh yeah, I was under that guy giving me orders. I wasn't topside, I was– Yeah, we just stayed in
our place.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then so afterwards now the plane has been hit, you put the fires
out, now what does the ship do?” (38:38)
Well I don’t know where they went then, you know I don’t know probably had to go out
someplace, you know.
Interviewer: “Well you had to go someplace to get repairs right?”
Oh yeah, I mean so then after that naturally we– After we get squared away I don’t know how
long it took we headed back to the states to get patched up in Bremerton, Washington.
Interviewer: “Washington or Mare Island? Did you go to Washington or to California?”
No, went to Washington.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Okay, alright– Alright and how long did you spend there do you think?”
I’ll bet you we were there at least two months, two and a half months.
Interviewer: “And now while you were there did you stay off the ship or were you still
quartered on the ship?”
We were still on the ship and the yardbirds, that’s what they call the workers yard birds, you
know they work– Do their work but we– And we would go to get liberty and we’d go to Seattle a
lot of times, you know we would get on the ferry from Bremerton to go to Seattle which was a
nice, nice city.
Interviewer: “Okay, now how did the people there treat the sailors?”
What in Seattle?
Interviewer: “Yeah.” (40:00)
Good, good.
Interviewer: “Okay, how about in Bremerton?”
Good, well I’ll tell you one thing there was a restaurant there run by– I don’t know if they were
Jap or some kind of oritental–
Interviewer: “Probably Chinese.”
Chinese maybe, okay and then he had a couple of beautiful daughters all us guys trying to go
there trying to pour the– I’ll tell you what they didn’t appreciate us doing that, yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, now did some of the guys get drunk and get in trouble or?”
�Rensi, Edward
Oh you never heard of a sailor getting drunk did you?
Interviewer: “Just once and a while.”
Yeah, even though we had– Hitting it pretty heavy, that’s the first time I was ever around it, the
first time I had a beer was when I was in the Navy. Oh yeah, that was something, I never got in
any trouble.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright but and then you’re getting kind of– Now did you think the
war might be over before you got back into it?”
No I don’t think– We hoped it would be you know and then you know that’s when Iwo Jiwa was
there, you know we missed Iwo Jima. Well that was bad and after that was over we started
feeling a little better, you know we thought– You know in that respect about the war being over,
not about– Yeah. (41:31)
Interviewer: “Okay, so when did the ship leave Washington then? Is it now in April or–”
Yeah, boy that was down in that book more.
Interviewer: “Okay, let’s see well you went to Okinawa right?”
Yeah, yeah from Bremerton we went to– From Bremerton went to Long Beach, I think Long
Beach, California and then we had a shakedown cruise, you know just to make sure everything’s
okay you know and then there went back to Okinawa, yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, and when you go to Okinawa had the battle already started?”
Oh yeah, yeah we got there I’d say in the latter phase of it yeah, but we were there you know we
still done some bombarding and stuff but yeah we go there.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Alright, now did your ship have problems with kamikazes at Okinawa, I
mean did you get attacked by air?”
No, not to speak of no, but they had a lotta trouble, a lotta trouble but that was more or less for
the destroyers and smaller craft you know, yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah I think they were targeting the transport ships and things like that.
Okay, so now while you’re there and you’re off Okinawa are you getting any news or any
information about what’s happening in that battle or do you just do your job and mind
your own business?”
Yeah from time to time we’d get reports, yeah. Yeah in fact they would have like a bulletin time
on the ship you know and they would have some write ups about so and so and they would have
some write ups about the ETO, you know so we’d know what was going on in the ETO you
know, so that was– (43:30)
Interviewer: “Okay, now were you still in the states when Germany surrendered cause that
would’ve been May, early May, of ‘45?”
May of ‘45.
Interviewer: “Cause you might have made it to Okinawa by then or you might have still
been–”
May of ‘45.
Interviewer: “But you remember hearing about Germany surrendering?”
Yeah, I know what you mean yeah, you know I can’t tell you.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Okay, alright now the other thing that happened along the way a little bit
before that President Roosevelt died.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “You remember hearing about that?”
Oh yeah, that was big and that came on the PA system, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you’re there for the latter part of the battle of Okinawa and
that’s over officially in early June or something like that. Now did you stay around
Okinawa for the rest of the war or did you go someplace else?”
Well we stayed around till the– Till they occupied Japan and then we stayed there and we
covered the troops for the land unit, the troops you know? They had a big deal that was big
[unintelligible] that was something big. So we covered the troops and then after that we sort of–
We anchored of course after that for a while and then we got to go to shore. (45:00) So I got to
go ashore twice, once in Tokyo and another province in Japan I got to go. So I was really
fortunate because most of them only got to go one time but this one time this other person didn’t
want to go so I said I’d go, so I got to go twice.
Interviewer: “Okay, so when you went ashore what did you see?”
Just observe you know, what would tickle me this one province we went to we saw these little
kids, they were so cute running around and they had like a big bamboo, a big long bamboo stick
and it had tar on it and they would catch dragonflies on it, you know and they’d get the
dragonflies and they’d tie a thread around them and they go around with a dragonfly with a
thread on it. It was clever the way they did it, you know.
Interviewer: “Alright, how much– How did the Japanese people behave towards you?”
�Rensi, Edward
Someone asked me that the other day, when we went to Tokyo we’d walk along, you know– You
know there’s still some people in those little huts you know, shacks and stuff and some of the,
couple of them, even had a bottle and was grinning at you like that you know but we had strict
orders: Do not fraternize, do not have anything to do with them, don’t even talk to them. You
know but we don’t know maybe they were grinning, you know but what were they thinking,
maybe once you take a drink that would be it, you know, we never did.
Interviewer: “Alright, and how much evidence did you see of the bombing?”
Oh it was something, in Tokyo you know there was different sections, you wouldn’t see anything
but these big safes. So it’s a big long safe you know, you see them in different places that’s all
you see and just dog burned out but that was it, the leveled it, but still there was places on Ginza
Street where it still had some stores open, stuff like that. There were some sections but basically
the most of the parts we’ve seen, boy they were really, I mean hit. Of course they were known
for that. Their structures weren’t, you know weren’t really– (47:24)
Interviewer: “Well they were made of wood and paper.”
Yeah, yeah, that’s it yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah so a lot of that burnt and there were some areas that we avoided
targeting so they didn’t bomb the Imperial Palace and they mostly didn’t bomb the Ginza
and that kind of thing. Now when you went into the other province was that more in the
countryside?”
Yeah, right, yeah it was different.
Interviewer: “Okay, and there was less damage there?”
Right, yeah wasn’t too much there, yeah.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Okay, now were you allowed to go into any of the stores or restaurants?”
Oh yeah, in fact I bought some things like I’ve got a few things for my mom and I forget just
what I did get, there wasn’t too much really but there was a few things you know.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you first got to Japan were you in Tokyo Bay at the time
when they signed the surrender agreements?”
Oh no, no.
Interviewer: “You came in later.”
Yeah, yeah we did.
Interviewer: “Okay, now to back up a little bit do you remember hearing about the atomic
bomb?” (48:23)
Yes.
Interviewer: “And what kind of response was there to that or did you understand what
that meant?”
Well really I don’t think it soaked in right away, you know we just thought well “The war’s over
boy oh boy!” We didn’t realize, you know what it actually, you know– It was sad really but it’s
war, war is war you know.
Interviewer: “But when you first heard about the bomb did you think that would win the
war?”
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Okay, now aside from going to Japan did you sail anywhere else in the far
east, did you go across to China or anywhere else?”
Well after the war was over– Do you wanna hear about that?
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
Well after the war was over we was heading back– No we was on a goodwill tour which was
great. Okay now we went to the Philippines in Lingayen Bay where that area happened, some of
that stuff happened we stopped and had–
Interviewer: “Did you have a memorial service?”
Yeah, yep couldn’t– We had a couple of services and then there we went to Singapore and we
were there for a couple days and got ashore which was really great. That was beautiful Singapore
and there where people wouldn’t pay any attention to you, man I’ll tell you boy they would shun
you. (50:15) Anyhow it was really nice and then from there we went to Ceylon which is Sri
Lanka now, you know changed and it was really nice to and we got to go ashore a couple of
times and we went with– The British were there and they had these, what they called their truck
lorries, you know their big vans, big troop trucks. So we got in one of those one day and they
took us inland in Ceylon to the capital Colombo you know, and it was really scenic because it
was hilly you know and you would see all kinds of elephants and different people and rice
paddies. It was really something and after that we went to Cape Town, South Africa, beautiful
boy that was something. We got ashore there a couple of times, up on Tabletop Mountain and
you take– Especially me a little kid, you know never left the county, hardly you know and boy
I’ll tell you that really impressed me and we enjoyed that. So we had a wonderful time after the
war coming home, now we landed in Philadelphia.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you cross the Atlantic then come back.”
�Rensi, Edward
Yeah actually we– Oh how do you say that? We circumnavigated the globe, we really did the
entire round like that and then we were in Philly from December the– I think we pulled into the
states December the 7th we had planned it so we– December the 7th, you know and we were in
Philly from December the 7th until May the 5th, 1946, so I had a good time in Philadelphia too,
so I was one of the lucky boys I survived and had some good times.
Interviewer: “Okay, so the ship was just sitting in the harbor at Philadelphia at that point
for all that time?”
Yeah and our job was clearing mothballs you know we had to get down and we’d be at work
then and we had to get down in the bilges and scrape and put chromate paint and, you know get
ready for mothballs and they get it ready for mothballs, they keep it for a couple years, and then
they scrap it.
Interviewer: “Right, yeah because it was an old battle ship.”
Oh yeah, they should’ve scrapped it but I just was– You think they had to say “Well she did a
good job, just let her go.” (52:40) You know but they put all that expense into it you know but
that's right, so that was it.
Interviewer: “Okay, now if you think back over the time you spent on the ship are there
other memories that stand out for you that you haven’t talked about yet, other things that
happened or people you knew?”
Yeah there’s like some other band members you know, I haven’t thought about them you know.
Interviewer: “So how much work did the band do, did they play regularly?”
Yeah they played, yep and they’d even go like when we would go they would– Like when we
went to Espiritu Santo they played there and sometime I think they went ashore in the
Philippines one time, and we went ashore in the Philippines sometime they called it Osmensa
�Rensi, Edward
Beach, you know he was a politician or something for something Ahmanson and they all had all
kinds of crass you know for us boys to come by. I bought a big ‘ole hat one time and bought stuff
like that and you could go and buy, you know things like that. So we’d got out on shore then and
I think about this one boy, he was a singer in the band and– Tell Washington he used to Linda
Darnell, she was a movie star you know, I don’t know if that’s was right or wrong maybe he did
cause he was from California and he was a singer you know, but he was killed. So I thought
about that you know cause– And there’s a guy called Harry Gin and he was an Indian from one
of the Dakotas and he was one of the guys on our Tennessee he was up there, he got– Oh there’s
different things come flashing back at you, you know.
Interviewer: “Okay, now you brought along a few artifacts here and maybe you can kind of
show them and explain what they are, so we’ll start with this one.”
Oh that’s a Navy blue dress hat, it was part of our uniform you know.
Interviewer: “Can you hold it up a little bit higher? Hold it up a little bit higher like that,
yeah. Okay so that’s part of the dress uniform.” (55:26)
Yeah, blues, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, so how often did you wear it?”
Well it depends where we was, what zone you’re in, if you’re in a zone that’s real hot we had
whites, usual whites. This is the hat, this is in other times but basically this is most of the time,
this would be, you know like in California or something like that you know.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay and then here we’ve got–”
That’s a whites yeah.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Not quite as white as it used to be but alright, so that’s sort of the shirt part
and then here. Now are these– Is that from the dress uniform?”
Yeah this is dress blues.
Interviewer: “Okay, a little higher, yeah.”
And see they had that, there’s supposed to be 13 buttons there for the 13 original colonies.
Interviewer: “Okay, so it’s all across the front.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, let’s see and then just a blanket here?”
Yeah that was my cover blanket. (56:32)
Interviewer: “Just a sort of standard issue, blanket material. Alright so– See how I’m doing
here. Okay, so once you get out, you make it to ‘46, you’re discharged from the Navy, what
do you do after that do you just go home?”
Yeah, when I got out in 1946 I naturally came home and then I didn’t do anything for a while
and then I went to Michigan, Detroit, Michigan you know in 194– Later part of ‘46, anyhow and
I got a job in auto plants and I stayed there for a while and I had this one job in an assembly line
for Dodge Motor’s you know and they changed models in August, so they laid me off. So I serve
for just maybe three or four months, and I really liked that job but then I mean I got laid off, I
went over to the Ford Motor Company and got a job over there, and I stayed there for several
months and then then my dad called me and he told me he could get me a job in the coal fields
and I’m a country boy you know so I come back home, which better off I stayed there really.
She’s still here, she heard that, oh boy. Anyhow I come back and got a job in the coal fields you
know.
�Rensi, Edward
Interviewer: “Now when you say coal fields are they doing strip mining there or is it
underground?”
Well yeah strip mining, open, I got a job there you know and I worked there for five years, I was
in supply house in charge of supplies and after that I got a job as a purchasing agent and I stayed
there for five years and then the company sold the mine, but the company sold the mine I work
for they kept me on and sent me down the deep mines, you know down in different locations and
I was down there for– I was there for– When they sent me to the deep mines they put me in
charge of the supply house and I was there for 12 years, and then I retired in 1985.
Interviewer: “Alright, let’s see and when did you get married?”
Wait no, let me think. Got married May 13th, 1950.
Interviewer: “Did he get that right?” (59:43)
Off camera voice: “Right.”
Interviewer: “Okay, good, okay seal of approval there. Alright, okay and to think back on
it I guess to the time you spent in the service how do you think that affected you or what
did you learn from that?”
I think it made me realize a lot, you know what life’s all about and it can be short but overall it
was really a great experience, really.
Interviewer: “Alright, well it makes for a good story so thank you very much for taking
your time to share it today.”
Oh boy, I survived!
�Rensi, Edward
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RensiE2306V
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rensi, Edward C.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-03
Title
A name given to the resource
Rensi, Edward (Interview transcript and video), 2019
Description
An account of the resource
Edward Rensi was born on December 7, 1925 in Parlett, Ohio, and grew up in Wintersville. He received his draft notice on March 14, 1944 when he was eighteen years old and chose to enlist in the Navy. He was then bussed to Great Lakes Naval Training Station near Chicago for Boot Camp. After graduating Boot Camp, Rensi was trained off to Camp Shoemaker, California, where he awaited assignment. In June of 1944, he was shipped out on a troop transport ship from San Francisco to the Marshall Islands. Rensi was then assigned to the USS California. His duty was to clean compartments aboard the ship as well as maintain the ship’s air compressor units. The California sailed to Saipan and then up to the Mariana Islands. Offshore from Saipan and the Marianas, the California fired shells upon the beaches, inland factories, and Japanese ammunition dumps in support of the ground troops. Rensi was on watch the night the California collided with the USS Tennessee, after which he sailed to Espiritu Santo, Vanuatu Island, for repairs. The California was then prepared and redeployed from Palau to support the invasion of the Philippines. In the Lingayen Gulf, the California was struck below the upper control towers by a Japanese kamikaze plane, above Rensi’s former battle station, causing severe fires and damage to sailors and ship alike. After two months of repairs in Bremerton, Washington, the USS California traveled back to California before redeploying to Okinawa in the late spring of 1945. With the end of the war, the California anchored near Japan and Rensi was able to make it ashore twice. He recalled visiting Tokyo and a postwar memorial service in the Philippines, as well as taking other trips to Singapore, Sri Lanka, and Cape Town, South Africa. The California returned to the United States in December of 1945, docking in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where the crew prepared it for scrapping. Rensi was then discharged on May 5, 1946 and proceeded to drift around before deciding to move to Detroit, Michigan, for work on the automobile assembly lines. He was laid off several times and eventually went to work in the coal fields near his hometown before retiring in 1985. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Rensi believed the Navy was a tremendous experience, teaching him the value and meaning of life.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Afghan War, 2001-2021—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/mp4
Language
A language of the resource
eng