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Native American Oral Histories
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Interview: Jeff Chivis
Interviewer: Belinda Bardwell
Date: October 10, 2016
[Lin]
Okay so I am recording an interview with Jeff Chivis. My name is Lin Bardwell.
The date is 10/10/16. Jeff can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
[Jeff]
Yeah, I am a professor at Grand Valley State University. I finished my
dissertation at Michigan State University and I studied the Middle Woodland
communities of West Michigan, Northwest Indiana, and Norton Mounds is one of
the sites that was part of my dissertation research.
[Lin]
So the purpose of this interview too, is to help with us writing an article
connecting or disconnecting the community, currently here historically, um, in the
Grand Rapids area to those of the Norton Mounds. Is there - what is the full
argument for the disconnect between them and us and is there a scientific proof
that does connect us to those of the Norton Mounds?
[Jeff]
Well first off I wouldn't say that there's a disconnect. Perhaps. I think the better
way to look at is that there's no way to clearly state that those people were the
ancestors of people, Native people, living in Michigan now. And more specifically
tribes of today. So Potawatami, Ojibwa, Odawa peoples. Those, the people who
lived in Norton Mounds could have been related not only to us but other tribes in
the Midwest and, you know, elsewhere. So the issue is trying to draw a cultural
link from artifacts that were created, you know, two thousand years ago and
applying those links to modern day people and that's where the issue is. We can't
determine archaeologically whether or not those people with the ancestors of a
specific tribe in this area.
[Lin]
Okay. Why do you say two thousand years?
[Jeff]
That's the day of the Norton Mounds. It dates to about 10 B.C. so we're looking
about two thousand years ago.
[Lin]
Okay, how does the Mounds get the name Norton?
[Jeff]
I believe it was one of the land owners who own the property when it was first
excavated.
[Lin]
So I know they're also connected to the Hopewellian people. Where does that
name come from?
�[Jeff]
[Lin]
Uh, the Hopewell site in Ohio. Essentially that um, it's a time period where there's
a vast trade network in all of Eastern North America including the construction of
burial mounds. Some of the more elaborate types of artifacts that we see that are
included in those mounds. So, yeah, it comes from the Hopewell site. The type
site for the Hopewell time period.
So the Hopewell time period. Where did - I read somewhere that came from that
original land owner, his last name.
[Jeff]
Hopewell.
[Lin]
Hopewell. Okay. Is there another term that could be associated with this,
Hopewellian name?
[Jeff]
There a lot of local expressions throughout the Eastern United States that they're
also known by. We have the Norton tradition, the Converse tradition here in
Michigan. We have, you know, other traditions around you know Eastern United
States, but they're all essentially hope Hopewell people having Hopewell
characteristics of burial mounds and sort of long-distance trade networks.
[Lin]
Are there other mounds that may not exist anymore, or still exist that are
connected also with the Norton Mounds and the Hopewellian Mounds of Ohio? Is
that what you said, Ohio?
[Jeff]
Yep, Ohio and Illinois. Culturally the people in West Michigan here in Norton
Mounds were more closely related, based on cultural similarities and artifacts,
they are most closely related to those people in Illinois and Indiana
[Lin]
Okay.
[Jeff]
It's only later on that we see the strong influence from Ohio.
[Lin]
Okay. Um, so. You are a native person, correct?
[Jeff]
Yes. Yes.
[Lin]
Do you have a tribal affiliation?
[Jeff]
Yes, Nottawaseppi Huron Band of Potawatomi.
[Lin]
And you are a native archaeologist. In your studies, do you feel that there's a
difference between native and non-native archaeologist when looking at and
studying the Norton Mounds or the mounds?
�[Jeff]
[Lin]
That's a tough question. I think native archaeologists have a stronger connection
to to the mounds, of course, because of our history. But I think sometimes nonnative archaeologists could not really consider strongly enough the opinions of
native people and native archaeologists.
What is important to you about the mounds?
[Jeff]
Well I think it really is proof of a long history of our people in this region, and I
think it can be a really important teaching site. The place, it's still place that's
used by modern Native American people for prayer. So I think it's, and
considering that it's one of the few remaining mounds sites in West Michigan still
that date to that time period, it's really important.
[Lin]
Why do you think history wants to separate them, as people, connected to us, as
current citizens?
[Jeff]
I think part of the problem has to do with the dichotomy of, you know, the very
words history versus pre-history. History, basically according to that structure
begins with the arrival of Christopher Columbus and everything thereafter.
Whereas the word pre-history sort of, almost relegated to something less than
the history itself. So, I think that's really a problem, that you see it in the literature,
and even in academia where archaeologists are talking pre-history versus
history. But I think that's one of the main issues that's should get rectified
eventually.
[Lin]
What impact do you think it has on native people today, when our, when the
native people's communities before Christopher Columbus, is considered prehistory?
[Jeff]
Well I think, I think it's insulting for one. And I think more contemporary
scholarship basically has attempted to do away with that term. And instead, we
use the term pre-Columbian, and we don't even use pre-history any more.
[Lin]
Okay. Anything else you'd like to add about the Norton Mounds that I didn't ask
you?
[Jeff]
No, not really.
[Lin]
So you said the mounds are created, or have been dated, back to two thousand
those of the Norton Mounds in Grand Rapids, correct?
[Jeff]
Two thousand years ago. Yes, 10 B.C.
[Lin]
And how are those mounds created?
�[Jeff]
Well basically using different types of dirt, and successively building different
layers to create the mound. In the middle there's sort of a central crypt area, and
here I'll show ya. [papers rustling] So this the plan view, or the profile of, a
mound. Essentially most of the mounds in Michigan were buried this way just like
in Illinois and Indiana. In Ohio and they're different. So, anyway you have
different types of gravel and different types of dirt and so they're used to build up.
You have a ramp here. The barrows would have been in the central crypt area as
well as most of the other artifacts. Sometimes barrows were included in the ramp
area as well.
[Lin]
So how did we, how did we figure this out? How do you know that this is the cut
through, slice through, of the mound?
[Jeff]
Because the University of Michigan conducted those excavations and they
essentially dug trenches in the middle of those mounds. So, you can see the
stratigraphy, or different layers, successive layers that accumulated. So that's
where those drawings are coming from, from those excavations.
[Lin]
How does that make you feel as an archaeologist?
[Jeff]
Well, it's certainly something that wouldn't be practice today. Especially in
Michigan here. I think archaeologists are well aware that, you know, digging into
burial mounds is no longer fashionable or acceptable. But back then, it certainly
was. And that's, unfortunately that happened, but we are able to gain some
information that we otherwise would not have had.
[Lin]
Right, it's a delicate balance between wanting to know, and wanting to be
respectful.
[Jeff]
That's right.
[Lin]
How does that make you feel, as Anishinaabe?
[Jeff]
I, I really don't. Like I said, the political, I mean politically it was entirely different
back then, in the sixties and fifties. So I don't really hold anything against those
individuals really.
[Lin]
How many -
[Jeff]
Like I said it's nothing that would be done today.
[Lin]
Right. How many mounds do you think we've lost? Is there a way to tell?
�[Jeff]
Well almost all of them. Like I said, Norton Mounds is one of the few, if not the
only, mounds that are still standing today. There are some in Muskegon River
Valley near Newaygo. There's a couple other smaller sites. All the most important
burial mounds, they've been bulldozed, either for building cities or looters came
and essentially destroyed them.
[Lin]
Right. Is it the Norton Mounds that were first excavated or started to be dug into
in the eighteen hundreds?
[Jeff]
Yep, by looters. Yeah.
[Lin]
Okay.
[Jeff]
And, but that that was common everywhere for all the mounds in the area.
[Lin]
Does Grand Valley State University have any other holdings in their collections?
[Jeff]
No.
[Lin]
No. they've all been -
[Jeff]
Everything's been repatriated or dispositioned -
[Lin]
dispositioned?
[Jeff]
back to the tribes.
[Lin]
What about other universities, such as Michigan State, U. of M.?
[Jeff]
Related to Norton Mounds?
[Lin]
No, funeral, you know, funerary.
[Jeff]
I believe most of the universities in Michigan have returned those back to the to
the tribes. There are universities in Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio especially, where
they needs to be a lot more work done. They have many artifacts and even our
ancestors still.
[Lin]
Okay. Alright. Anything else? Alright. Thanks Jeff
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c46a8097dbf1e7695d08f91bc8097d58.mp3
5745b8be373ccb81f1c8a9f9ccaded08
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gi-gikinomaage-min Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Native American Advisory Council
Grand Valley State University. Kustche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews with members of Grand Rapids' urban Native American population collected as part of the Gi-gikinomaage-min Project: Defend Our History, Unlock Your Spirit.
Translated from Anishinaabemowin, the original language of this area, Gi-gikinomaage-min means "We are all teachers." This is the name our project team choose to convey to the Native American community that through our stories and experiences, we are all teachers to someone. As we share those stories, we are allowing for our next generations to experience the past.
Grand Rapids’ Native American community grew dramatically in the last half of the 20th century as a result of a little-known federal program that still impacts American Indian lives today. Called the Urban Relocation Program, it created one of the largest mass movements of Indians in American history. The full scope of this massive social experiment and its impact on multiple generations of Native Americans remains largely undocumented and unexplored.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015/2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Indians of North America--Education
Potawatomi Indians
Bode'wadmi
Ojibwa Indians
Anishinaabe
Navajo Indians
Dine'e
Cherokee Indians
Tsagali
Aniyunwiya
Archaeology
Mound-builders
Hopewellian culture
Indian arts--North America
Personal narrativse
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
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DC-10
Format
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audio/mp3
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Sound
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-10_Chivas_Jeffrey
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chivis, Jeffrey
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-10
Title
A name given to the resource
Jeffrey Chivis interview (audio and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Jeffrey Chivis is a member of the Nottawaseppi Huron Band of the Potawatomi, and is originally from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Chivis graduated with a bachelor’s degree in Anthropology from Grand Valley State University (GVSU), and obtained his master’s degree and Ph.D. in Anthropology from Michigan State University (MSU). He is a professional archaeologist with a focus on historic preservation and the pre-Columbian archaeology of the Eastern United States. Previously, Chivis worked as a professor at MSU, GVSU, and Grand Rapids Community College, teaching courses on the diversity of Native American societies in North America and contemporary issues affecting Native American people. Dr. Chivis also previously worked for NHBP, creating its Cultural and Historic Preservation Office, Tribal Historic Preservation Office, and repatriation program. In this interview, Chivis discusses Native archeological sites in the Midwest and in Michigan.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Bardwell, Belinda (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Potawatomi Indians
Bode'wadmi
Personal narratives
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Archaeology
Mound-builders
Hopewellian culture
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
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Native American Oral Histories
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Interview: June Mamagona Fletcher
Interviewer: Belinda Bardwell
Date: April 6, 2016
[Lin]
So, I am interviewing June Mamagona Fletcher for the Gi-gikinomaage-min
Defend Our History Project. Oral History project through the Kutsche office of
Grand Valley State University. It's April 6th, it's about 2 P.M. and we are in the
studios of WGVU. I want to thank you June for allowing me to interview you
today. I was wondering if you could introduce yourself?
[June]
Well, I'm glad to be here. My name is June Mamagona Fletcher, and my father is
David Mamagona. Who's Grand Traverse Ottawa, and my mother is Laura
Stevens, and she is a decedent of the Pokagon tribe, and I am Bear Clan
through my mother’s side. I'm married to Richard Fletcher, and my sons are
Matthew Fletcher and Zeke Fletcher. On the side note, I graduated from Grand
Valley State University many years ago. With my master’s degree in business
administration.
[Lin]
Nice! Where were you born?
[June]
I was born in Detroit, Michigan. My father was relocated during the forties to
Detroit. In a roundabout way he met my mother. So, they lived there for a while.
At least while I was born. Then they would move back to Dorr in Allegan County.
When my brother was born they moved back to Detroit, so we were both born in
the same Mt. Carmel Hospital in Detroit.
[Lin]
Oh, okay. So, where was your father is located from?
[June]
He was relocated from--Um, by Traverse City. He lived at Kewadin area, which is
on the other side of the Peninsula from Peshawbestown. Then my mother grew
up in Allegan County. She was one of the few people who didn't go to the
boarding school in that particular area, because she had TB. She was diagnosed
with TB. So, about the time that they went from twelve to sixteen, she was in the
hospital. Then she was out of the hospital for a few months. Then she was in a
car accident and broke her back. So, then she was out again. She was one of the
first recipients of the GED certificate. That she earned when she was in the
hospital. She was also one of the first people to get her LPN license in-state they
had just started the program when she was a young person.
[Lin]
And where did she work?
[June]
She worked--Uh, she started out at Allegan General Hospital, and she worked at
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�various places. When she retired, she retired from Michigan Veterans Facility.
[Lin]
Oh.
[June]
And then my father was an engineer. He went to college in Angola, Indiana. He
was what they call--Uh, a job shopper, or engineer. But, he would do short term
projects. So, they would live in various places while he--Um, ‘til he would finish
up a project in the particular city. Then usually they move back to Allegan
County. Either with my grandpa, or in that area.
[Lin]
So, that's your Pottawatomie side?
[June]
Yes, that was my Pottawatomie side. I also lived for a couple years up with my
grandpa Mamagona in Kewadin. When my dad was working and going to school
through Ford Motor Company. So, that was pretty interesting. He was one of the
people that invented the shift system for the Mustang.
[Lin]
Nice!
[June]
So, now I know why I like Mustangs.
[Lin]
That's my favorite car too. Okay, so where was the majority of your time growing
up spent?
[June]
Uh, probably once my brother got older, it was probably Grand Rapids. That's
where I grew up. Um, and I went to--I started high school at Central Michigan-Uh, Central Christian, and then I went to-- I graduated from Creston High School.
In fact, the year that I graduated Joanne Sprague and I were the only two Native
American students to graduate from in the city of Grand Rapids.
[Lin]
How was attending school being the only two Native people in the school?
[June]
We didn't actually even go to school together very much. She went to Central
and I went to Christian. I mean to say Creston. But, I-- they had a program where
I would go to Central once a day for physics class, and then we would go out to
lunch together, so--Plus, you know, I'd known her all my life.
[Lin]
Mhm.
[June]
She's about the same age as I was, and her family was real close with my aunt
and uncle. Well anyway, and there's a lot of Spragues. [Laughter]
[Lin]
They're sprinkled throughout.
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�[June]
Yeah.
[Lin]
Uh, did you suffer any racism? Or—
[June]
You know being the only one for many many years in the different school
systems that I went to, it was more of a novelty for me when I was growing up. I
really didn't--Uh, the most overt racism that I ever came to is when I was in the
restroom, after seeing a movie at Studio Twenty-Eight. You know afterwards,
after that that big glass of ice tea--you really have to go. [Laughter] Alright, so I'm
standing in line and I got finished. And I came out and this woman, she said "Well
I'm not going in after her." Then she'd turned around, then the lady behind her-"Well, don't care!" And then she went in there. She wouldn't use the restroom
after me. That was probably the most overt.
[Lin]
Yeah? About how old were you?
[June]
I was probably about twenty.
[Lin]
Sheese.
[June]
And I really didn't care. [Laughter] It's her problem.
[Lin]
Okay, so you graduated from Creston. And I noticed that you went to Western
Michigan University.
[June]
Mhm.
[Lin]
What was it like attending there your first--So, you weren't the first-generation
college student--'Cause your mother and father were--
[June]
Well technically if you go by the federal guidelines, I was. Because my father
didn't get a bachelor’s degree and my mother had a certificate, a nursing
certificate. So, technically. But, growing up – I actually went to Grand Rapids
Community College first. I think probably, I went to college the hard way. You
know, I got married first, had a kid, and then decide to go back to college. Which
makes it a little bit different. Because then you have home, family, work. You
know, then school and studying. That was probably the most difficult way to do it.
But, I had a lot of support at home. You know, Richard was real supportive, my
mother's real supportive. Helped me to take care of my son and I made it
through, and I went to, after Community College, is when I went to Western.
Again, you know, my family is real helpful and help me get me through there.
After I graduated there, was probably a couple years later when I started working
here at Grand Valley State University. Then I worked here for seventeen years.
While I was working here is when I got my vouchers. Actually, I was probably one
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�of the first people to use the Tuition Waiver Program. When I was going to
GRCC.
[Lin]
Can you explain a little bit what the tuition waiver program is?
[June]
Well, it's not really tight down the way it is now, it was more loose. 'Cause people
weren't really schools, and the people weren't really sure how to use it. I got my
certification through the Bureau of Indian Affairs. So, that's how you did that back
then, rather than going through your tribes. We'd have to go--the way they do it
nowadays. I also I got some school funding through them to help pay for my child
care, when I was going through there. So, everything was through the Bureau of
Indian Affairs as opposed to tribes. Everything is run through tribes now. The
process was you just fill out the form, and approve it by the BIA. Then you send it
to the State of Michigan, and there it was. You know, the school had to waive
your tuition, basically. While you was going to school. That was before the State
of Michigan actually set up a funding process for the tuition waiver.
[Lin]
What year was that?
[June]
Oh, man! [Laughter] Um, let's see. Probably 1979.
[Lin]
And that was the beginning of that tuition waiver?
[June]
Yeah, right around there. I think it actually was starting in like ’77, ’78. But, you
know, it took them a while to figure out how they were going to do it. So, I think
for me it was ’79, is when I… I only got, like, one semester in before I graduated.
Then I started in at Western in 1981. Then I graduated from there in ’83. Then I
started here in ‘90, I think.
[Lin]
And what did you do at Grand—
[Unknown Person] Can we pause?
[Lin]
Is it off?
[Unknown Person]
[Lin]
Oh.
[Unknown Person]
[Lin]
Can you restate that question?
What was the question?
[Unknown Person]
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No, it's not off.
[INAUDIBLE]
�[Lin]
Oh, I was gonna-- I was going to-- So, what did you do here at Grand Valley
State University?
[June]
I worked for the talent search program, and our job was to assist first generation
students into continuing their education beyond high school. So, when I first
started, we only work with high school students to get them prepared, shown
them what the ropes are, help 'em fill out scholarships, college applications, and
financial aid to continue their education beyond high school. Okay. And, we
worked with alternative schools. So, a lot of my students went to Grand Rapids
Community College. And not all of them went for, you know-- Not everybody is
going to become a teacher, or lawyer, or whatever. They were mainly going for
continuing studies in some area. It could be out of mechanics, it could be
nursing, it could be childcare assisting--there was a number different programs
that GRCC had back then. That my student started out for, and since we worked
with non-traditional students-- What I did, is my focus was on--Um, I had two
focuses. One was adult education, and then the other one was the Native
American community. So, I assisted probably over the seventeen years, probably
hundreds of Native American members of this community. To continue to-- at
least know what they had to do to continue their education. You know, they
might've not went that year, or they mighta' started and then stopped. And then,
you know, five years later they were in a better spot, and then they started back
up--but, at least they knew what the ropes were to continue their education
beyond high school.
[Lin]
What were some of the common threads between the Native community and
getting access to higher education.
[June]
Well, knowledge is one thing--that being first generation students, a lot of
students didn't know what they had to do to get into higher education. And,
having a really good institution like GRCC, where they had a number of different
programs that you can use. They had a number of choices that they could figure
out where they wanted to use the tuition waiver at.
[Lin]
Mhm.
[June]
Because you're--the tuition waiver only covers public colleges and universities.
So, we kinda went down that route and for some people they continued on--You
know, I have students – You know I meet people at Meijers they'll say: "Oh!
Missus Fletcher! You know, you helped me get my master’s degree. Do you
remember way back when?” and I just say--well you know! I had eight hundred
clients a year! [Laughter]
[June]
So, you know. Can you give me a break here? Can you tell me what your name
5|Page
�was, and where, you know, whatever? But, you know, a lot of 'em have gone to
get their doctorates. You know? I think once you know what the ropes are it's
easier. Also, it was helpful for the parents too. Because, parents-- They wanna
be able to help their students--their kids-- and they don't wanna look like they
don't know what they're doing. So, it's nice when everybody comes in and you tell
them, you gotta do this, this, this, and this. Had a nice little check list going, and
these are the things that you had to do. And, as a parent this is what you have to
do, and as a student this is what you have to do. So, graduating from high school
was always the number one priority. Which is really nice working with Ron in the
community, because he had kind of a nice classroom that I could start out with
working with students. He had--we had a lot--we supported each other. So, he
would you know say: "Well, June you know this is what we wanna do. And you
know, come visit colleges, provide scholarship assistance, and information." And,
we would work together in getting these kids graduated. I was just looking at
pictures the other day, I was trying to remember what I did way back then, and
I'm going, you know, we had a lot of kids that we both worked with over the years
that through the Grand Rapids Public schools.
[Lin]
So at that time, you mentioned Ron, who's Ron?
[June]
Ron Yob is a teacher that worked with the alternative education programs in the
Grand Rapids Public School system. And his classroom was mainly for Native
American students.
[Lin]
So did you work closely with the Native American education program within
GRPS?
[June]
Um, off and on, depending on what was going on. Actually, I worked, probably
five years for the Native American Education Program when I first started
working in Grand Rapids Public Schools. And then I did not -- um-- I had my
second child and went on maternity leave and then when I came back I went into
Community Education work.
[Lin]
Okay so, let me fast forward, you answer all my questions before I ask him.
[June]
Oh well that's good.
[Lin]
Less I have to do. Sorry [Laughs] I get off track. Okay I am so being able to focus
on the Native community within your job at GVSU, was that difficult to push
through GVSU, or did they allow you to focus on the Native community.
[June]
Well because of the grant requirements, it was fairly easy to work with the Native
American community because it was one of our focus areas, because we worked
with non-dominant populations. And so, we had various, we had, we worked with
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�the Black American community, we worked with the Hispanic community and our
advisors you know had our -- everybody in our program had their different areas
of expertise. But our main overall function usually was working with alternative
education programs. You know, so we worked with young mothers, we worked
with people that were just coming to the community from other countries, we
worked with displaced homemakers. So, you know we had a really wide range of
areas within our program and one of the things of having a federal grant like that
is Grand Valley does sign off and they were always very supportive of our
program, as we were going through.
[Lin]
And the grant that was for Talent Search?
[June]
Which is one of the TRIO programs through the Department of Education.
[Lin]
Okay. Yeah that still is going on today. Are there any students that stand out in
your history? You know working with Grand Rapids Public schools, there was
always a couple of students that stand out and I remember. Just wondering if you
had any?
[June]
Oh well not right off hand.
[Lin]
Okay.
[June]
They were all pretty good.
[Lin]
Um, let's see here, more about Grand Valley. So, working with Ron Yob, what
exactly did he do for his students through your perspective.
[June]
He was a hands-on educator, and an all-around one, so if the student was
lagging behind in any of their educational areas he would reinforce that and if
they were having problems at home, he would make home visits. And there's
been a couple times where both of us had gone to talk to a parent because the
student wanted to go to college but the parent was not on board with the student
continuing their education. So we would sit and have a discussion about you
know what education does for you. And what education does is gives you the
possibility of making choices of what you want to do. Many times, um say, you
get your education in Education, but that doesn't always mean you're gonna be a
teacher. There's a lot of possibilities that you can do within the educational
system. You might have a background in business and you might you know end
up being a trainer for a large company. You're still in education and you're still
teaching but you're doing it in a different focus area. So there's a lot of different
possibilities you could do with that, same with nursing. You know you go into
nursing and everybody thinks oh you're gonna be a nurse. That's not -- you may
end up with Insurance Company. You know, looking at claims and checking out
7|Page
�the possibilities, you know, of what you know this claim might cover not cover.
[Lin]
So you mentioned job training. I noticed that you also had a career as part of the
Michigan Indian employment training.
[June]
I've been on the board for since 1985. Oh, for me it's, oh my goodness, um, and
that, originally and still is the focus is to help assist Native American peoples in
the work place and the requirements have changed over the years. I think they're
slowly kinda winding it down as far as funding goes and as far as support goes
with within the government process. Politics are changing, you know, and a lot of
it is going with politics on that one. But again, there's a number of people that
were - a lot of people that were assisted through the program because of that.
[Lin]
So what exactly did the program do?
[June]
Well what it used to do is use to help people. I would work with employers and
would place people and employers it would help him with job training. It would
help them with the equipment. There was a lot of, you know, everything you
might need -- transportation through the public system -- so there was number of
things that, you know, would assist people in the area. One of the other things
that we did, that I did when I worked with Grand Valley, was we had a higher
education advocacy program that we worked with colleges around the State of
Michigan. So, say I have somebody that's graduating from Grand Rapids
Community College and they wanna become an engineer. Maybe, you know,
there are a good enough student and they always really wanted to go to the
University of Michigan. So, I would work with that staff person at Michigan to see
if the possibility of that student transferring over there and then because of the
support program they have, you know, not only would help them, they'd help
them through the whole process, a lot of times, even if they were only working,
say, in financial aid. You know they would still say, well this is a good place to
live or, you know you don't really need a car, or maybe you need to find a place
to park a car outside the city and then use the public system within the city to get
around. Ann Arbor is, you know, a real different type of city than Grand Rapids,
and also bringing that up. I also I had, say like I had students, because I would
work, like with you know, with Waylon or Hopkins and the students from there
might want to go to like the University of Michigan or Michigan State University,
and you know it's a totally different system. You know and I had some success
but I also had a few that maybe were not quite as successful. They get into, you
know, that huge environment and it was just too overwhelming for some
students.
[Lin]
Was there departments or offices on campus that helped deal with that transition
period between living at home going to high school to a bigger university like
that?
8|Page
�[June]
You mean with here?
[Lin]
With any school.
[June]
Oh yeah there's all -- it's just a matter of finding the support system, and that's
basically like what I would do through my program, is we would dig in the
background and find out what needed to be done. You know to make that person
that student successful and where they wanted to go.
[Lin]
Do you have-- um-- did you used to work, you know like Ron and several other
people had worked at the Native American Alternative School, that was at
Lexington I believe. Did you work specifically with that school?
[June]
Not specifically with that, because that, when they first started out they weren't
part of the public school system. It was Title IVC and it was part of inter-tribal
council.
[Lin]
So you worked closely with inter-tribal council?
[June]
Well I actually, I was working with a Native American program at that time and
our office was there.
[Lin]
So yeah?
[June]
Well not really, because we were part of the Grand Rapids Public Schools. So, I
worked with the schools as a paraprofessional.
[Lin]
And where were all those offices located at the time?
[June]
Well let's see, we had an office, we started -- where did we start out at? We
started out at Lexington, then we went to Westside Complex, and then we went
back to Lexington and that's where they were when I went on maternity leave.
And then after that I think they went, that's when they went to West Bridge, West
Middle.
[Lin]
West Middle. Okay. I think that's when I started working there at West Middle.
Let's see, so. So, working in Grand Rapids, did you also live in Grand Rapids
too? Or did you live south of?
[June]
Well I did live here but not when I worked here. I worked -- I lived south of here
when my son was, I think he was about four, we moved to Cutlerville. So it wasn't
that far away.
9|Page
�[Lin]
What was Grand Rapids like for Native people back then.
[June]
Oh I don't know. We used to have a lot of fun. [Laughs] We had a lot of different
things you know and we had all our get-togethers and know you we really worked
as a close community and so, and when we did projects we did as a community.
We didn't do it as say, one person. That's the person that's responsible for
everything that went on. We worked together as though there was a number of
people that were all contributing in their various areas. When we started the
Native American Coalition, it was actually the brain child of Laura Church. She
brought in the resources to figure out how we wanted do this. The coalition,
whether we wanted to be our standalone entity, or whatever, and since all the
members were all--usually came from nonprofit organizations it seemed kinda
silly for us to become a nonprofit organization. So that's why we went with the
coalition route. I can't think of any of the people around any of the organizations
around here that didn't contribute when we first started out. We used to have the
Back to School program. Again, that was kinda like a Laura Church idea and
everybody just kinda though, “Aw, it's a great idea!” We all got in, everybody
made contributions, and everybody--one group would bring in the food, and then
another group would bring in projects, and another one would bring in--We had
educational centers that would come in and share their information with the
community. In the Native community setting, besides back to school supplies.
You know? So it was like a--like a whole little community affair fair. [Laughter]
They used to be a lot of fun, a lot of work, it was a lot of work. And I don't think
that if not everybody had gotten involved we would have been able to do that.
But, we didn't rely on just one person doing everything. Which is--which is really
what tribal communities are all about. A lot of times, you'll get a person in there
and they're the ones that want all the glory. So it's always--"Well I brought these
people together, or I did this." Once you start doing that then everybody start
backing away. Why should I contribute if you're not gonna give me any of the
glory? [Laughs] As a result, I think that was part of the reason why we don't have
a coalition any more.
[Lin]
Can you briefly explain the Native American Coalition?
[June]
Well, we were group of community organizations that wanted to help, assist,
inform, and recognize our community. So, we had kind of all-encompassing type
of mission statement. So, we had the Back to School program, we had
graduation parties, we had New Year's Eve parties. Used to have-- a lot of
communities had potlucks. Different celebrities would come in--like through
colleges or whatever. We would invite them to come and say: "We would like to
meet you, and would you like to come to our potluck?" And, many times they
would come. We would welcome new members of the community. For example,
when Jeff and Betty Davis came--We had a nice little organization. It was a lot of
fun to get together. I'm sure it really put them on the spot. [Laughs] them and
10 | P a g e
�their children. But you know it's just a fun getting together.
[Lin]
Who's Jeff and Betty Davis?
[June]
Jeff was the--was--on the--What do they call it? Assistant Attorney for-- Which
one is it? I can't think of--Brain fart.
[Lin]
He's a federal attorney, I believe.
[June]
Yeah, but he doesn't do it any more, 'cause he has a different function now--but
he was assistant attorney I think--I was gonna say he's looking at his phone.
[Lin]
Is he googling it?
[June]
Yeah. Probably. [Laughter]
[Lin]
And who is Betty Davis?
[June]
Well, at the time she was a wife, but she is now the director, I believe, of Native
American Education Program.
[Lin]
Besides the functions of the coalition put on, what other--You said there was a lot
of fun activities in Indian--In the Indian Community in Grand Rapids. What other
sorts of activities existed?
[June]
Oh, I forgot the vet's pow wow. The coalition used to do the vet's pow wow too in
November. Well we--there's the pow wows they have in the spring. That Grand
Valley would put one on, and then the other one--Well it's hosted down by the
Grand River Ottawa. The two pow wows. You know, once you get to the summer
time you have pow wows around the state. It's not stuck just to one community.
It's kind of a state-wide community.
[Lin]
So, what did your family do within the Native community? You and your children?
[June]
Well, when my son--As adults, my sons now are both attorneys, and um.
Matthew is a professor at Michigan State University. He's also judge at, I don't
know, six or seven different tribes. My younger son is private practicing attorney
that works with tribes. So, they both work in tribal law.
[Lin]
You proud of them?
[June]
Of course--
[Lin]
Mmm, I'm nosy.
11 | P a g e
�[June]
--and I got the greatest grandchildren. [Laughter]
[Lin]
You had mentioned that back-- Back in the day, like I don't know what time frame
that is, but the Native community was together, and planning functions, and
doing functions together. Do you see a difference in today's Native community?
[June]
Yes. I don't think we're as close as we used to be, and I don't know if it's because
people were--people my age we all kinda clan together anyway, the baby
boomers. Because we just did. Then maybe that just kinda rolled over into the
community at large because there were just so many of us about the same age.
So, we really enjoyed each other's company. We had the same rock stars, a lot
of the same backgrounds. With-- Neither of my parents went to boarding school,
but a number of our parents--our aunts and uncles, and other relatives did go to
boarding schools. I think we lost a lot, well I know we lost a lot, by doing that
because part of it is--a big part is the language. When I was little my grandpas
took care of me, because I had no grandmothers. So, we lived in Allegan County
was my grandpa Pete took care of us, and then when I lived up North it was my
grandpa Ben. They spoke Ottawa and Pottawatomie to me. When I dream about
them that's what they are speaking to me in my dreams, but I can't, I don't
understand what they're saying. [Laughter]
[Lin]
My next question.
[June]
But the little me does. Not the adult me. [Laughter]
[Lin]
Have they ever shared any stories about the boarding school with you?
[June]
Neither my grandpas went to boarding school. My aunt went briefly to Mount
Pleasant. She was one of the--I don't know. I think she's probably one of the last
ones to go to the Mount Pleasant boarding school? She didn't like being away
from home. So, she didn't continue--she only went one year. But my grandpa
would pay to have somebody drive down--drive her down to Mount Pleasant from
Kewadin. Then bring her home on holidays and weekends and stuff. My uncles-my grandpas’ brothers. Three of them went to the University of Michigan. My
Uncle George is in engineer, and two of them were in law. But one just started,
and then he was killed in accident. So he didn't finish. Then the other one died
also, so my Uncle George is the only one that actually made it through, then he
moved away. [Laughter]
[Lin]
Where did he move to?
[June]
He went into service with the government. Then I'd hear just some wonderful
stories, weird stories, about him. Mostly, it sounded like he was a civil engineer.
Then he went into government service, and settle down in Pennsylvania
12 | P a g e
�[Lin]
Okay.
[June]
So for when I grew up, I thought myself, my brother, and my dad were the only
actually named Mamagonas left. So you kinda grew up thinking well, you know,
this is it. We're the last ones with the name. Especially my brother, because my
cousins-- with my aunt--all married Churches. So, their name was all Church.
Then my dad's other brother had one daughter. Of course, she changed her
name. Of course, I change mine too eventually. But my brother would have been
the last one. Well, thanks to Facebook, we found out that George had three sons.
Each one of those three sons had like three or four children. Each one of those
three or four children had like five to eight children. So between Pennsylvania
and Florida, we're just like talking like zillions of Mamagonas. [Laughter]
[Lin]
Right.
[June]
You know, thinking that you're the only one. Then come to find out that there is
this whole group out there that all have your name. And think their Cherokee.
[Lin]
That's comforting. And they--they what?
[June]
They think they’re Cherokee. [Laughs]
[Lin]
Aw.
[June]
See what happens? You know, it goes on, and on, and on.
[Lin]
Right.
[Lin]
So growing up with you, and your family, and then your children-- Does religion
play a huge part of your spirituality?
[June]
Well we're religious. Belonging to the United Methodist Church. My kids grew up
within the church. But as you get older, you got things to do. [Laughs] So you go
to churches for weddings and funerals. [Laughs] At my age is more funerals than
not. [Laughs]
[Lin]
Aw. So back to the urban Grand Rapids area. Kind of the lifestyle and the time
period. What influences do you think that the National Indian, American Indian
Organization such as civil rights organizations or political organizations. I am
played in the Grand Rapids. why you're in the Grand Rapids area while you were
here?
[June]
Trying to think that far back. I would say none.
13 | P a g e
�[Lin]
None?
[June]
You know, we had-we had the Wounded Knee, and people would talk about it,
but that wasn’t here. If you look--I did a presentation many years ago. Part of that
was I wanted to see what kind of presence we had within the public eye. And, the
only times we were mentioned in the newspaper between this fifty-year period
was Wounded Knee back in what? 1889, ‘99, whenever it was, and Wounded
Knee again back in the seventies. Too. There was nothing else about it. It was
just like we did exist in all that time before or after. You know, Wounded--And
that's not even us! [Laughter] You know there was no mention. The Anishinabek
Community at all in the public eye. So when they, like when they did the
dedication of the of the statue in Ah-Nab-Awen Park, everybody goes: "Oh, look!
There's a statue to them!" Then, you know, it's just like people still think that you
live in teepees and ride ponies. Even when I used to do presentations. I had a
sixth grade I presented to. They wanted to know where my teepee was, and how
many horses I had. All I says is: "All I got is a Ford [Laughter] and I live in-- I live
in a ranch house right around the corner from here. They're going: "Oh!" And
these were--children that--kids that--my children went to school with.
[Lin]
Mhm. Do you see things changing?
[June]
Sure. Sure, I think there's a there's a lot of changes. There's--there's some
probably some backlash since there's a lot of children that are not identifiably
Indian. Like I am, or like you are. My grandson is one of them. I have a grandson
that's--When he lived up in Traverse City the kids would say: "You can't do this
because you don't look Indian." He still remembers that! Here he is thirteen years
old, and he was--Just year ago, he was tell me about that. He says: "So, does
that make me not Indian?" I say: "No" [Laughs] I says: " You are an Indian as part
of your- your heart, your heritage, and your history."
[Lin]
Yeah, it's a delicate balance between tribal citizenship--
[June]
Oh, right.
[Lin]
It’s very divisive.
[June]
And, its more difficult for those who don't. I also have two other grandsons that
are brothers. One's blonde hair blue-eyed, and the other is black hair brown-eye.
Everybody goes: "They're brothers?"
[Lin]
I have a couple of nephews that way too. So, if you could summarize into one to
two highlights about who you are as an urban native, what would you want to
pass on to the next generation?
14 | P a g e
�[June]
I think that you should be true to yourself, and what you stand for--and do the
best that you can do with whatever you decide to do. That's what my mother
said. Is if you think you wanna go into the public eye because you want to bring
out the history--then stand for that. If you want to improve the educational
background a of person-- Realize that you won't always get the glory, because
somebody else is always gonna be credited for what you do. That doesn't stop
you from doing what you want to do. If that's what you want to do, then do it.
[Lin]
Very nice. Is there anything that I didn't ask that you wanted to talk about?
[June]
Probably education. When I went to college my focus was on business, because
I didn't see myself as a teacher. I didn't see myself as an office worker, and I
didn't see myself as a nurse. Which the women in my family were nurses. My
mother, my aunts, my cousins. I got a lot of nurses there. I also had some
teachers. I think my family--I have 51 first cousins, and out of all those first
cousins every single one of them is graduated from high school. That was-- that's
one thing that is always been real prominent. Not only my family, but in my dad's
fami--My mom's family--But my dad's family too. I think that that was part of my
promotion for actually getting where I am at. Because, like I said, it wasn't my first
focus. Business was the area that I found most interesting. My mother was
always the one that said you gotta be educated. Which her father told her. You
gotta be educated so that you can support your children, because that's always
your number one priority. Your number two priority is your family. So, you got
your child, and you got your family. Then you have your community. I think those
are probably some of the things that kinda guided me as a made my decisions
through the--through the degrees that have gone through. I think having both
sides of my family be educated in one way, shape, or form, has helped kind of
support me in that area. I think overall my family at large has been real
supportive of us getting our education. 'Cause I'm not the only one who's
educated my family with the higher education. As a matter fact, one of my
cousins just got his doctorate. So, I'm gonna have a party on the thirtieth.
[Lin]
In what?
[June]
You know, I think it's philosophy. [Laughter]
[June]
Isn't that what PhD's are all about? [Laughs]
[Lin]
I don't know. I don't think I'll find out.
[June]
I know.
[Lin]
Never say never, right?
15 | P a g e
�[June]
Mhm.
[Lin]
Levi had sent me a couple of questions.
[June]
Oh, I wanted to say too, I was one of the first King Chavez Park Scholars. KCP
[Lin]
Oh.
[June]
Myself and a guy up north. We graduated the same year.
[Lin]
And that was a high school scholarship?
[June]
No. It was a graduate fellowship.
[Lin]
Nice.
[June]
That we both got. We both happened to finish at the same time. So, can't say we
were first. [Laughs]
[Lin]
So knowing now--If you knew now--If you knew back then what you know now,
would you continue? Would you have gotten an MBA? Or, would you have gone
into something different?
[June]
No, I think I would have stayed with what I went, because that's what I find most
interesting.
[Lin]
Business?
[June]
Mhm. I like to tell people what to do.
[Lin]
I like to do that too.
[June]
I know!
[Lin]
We're so good at it!
[June]
Bossy Odawa women. [Laughter]
[Lin]
I think that's all I have.
[June]
Okay
[Lin]
So.
16 | P a g e
�[June]
Well, thank you for inviting me. Thank you for sharing and asking.
[Lin]
Thank you for your participating in this project. I appreciate everything that you've
done and will do for the community.
[June]
It's nice to be noticed once in a while. [Laughter] okay
17 | P a g e
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0a16ce6b5e2dbd7ca90a0dce0457e945.mp3
db129eeaf846cdfca27c38088e6a8fac
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gi-gikinomaage-min Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Native American Advisory Council
Grand Valley State University. Kustche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews with members of Grand Rapids' urban Native American population collected as part of the Gi-gikinomaage-min Project: Defend Our History, Unlock Your Spirit.
Translated from Anishinaabemowin, the original language of this area, Gi-gikinomaage-min means "We are all teachers." This is the name our project team choose to convey to the Native American community that through our stories and experiences, we are all teachers to someone. As we share those stories, we are allowing for our next generations to experience the past.
Grand Rapids’ Native American community grew dramatically in the last half of the 20th century as a result of a little-known federal program that still impacts American Indian lives today. Called the Urban Relocation Program, it created one of the largest mass movements of Indians in American history. The full scope of this massive social experiment and its impact on multiple generations of Native Americans remains largely undocumented and unexplored.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015/2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Indians of North America--Education
Potawatomi Indians
Bode'wadmi
Ojibwa Indians
Anishinaabe
Navajo Indians
Dine'e
Cherokee Indians
Tsagali
Aniyunwiya
Archaeology
Mound-builders
Hopewellian culture
Indian arts--North America
Personal narrativse
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
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DC-10
Format
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audio/mp3
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-10_Fletcher_June_Mamagona_0416
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fletcher, June Mamagona
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-06
Title
A name given to the resource
June Mamagona Fletcher interview (audio and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
June Mamagona Fletcher is a member of the Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band of Pottawatomi Indians (Gun Lake). She was born in Detroit, Michigan and has lived in Dorr and Grand Rapids, Michigan. She holds an MBA from Grand Valley State Unviersity as well as degrees from Western Michigan University and Grand Rapids Community College. In this interview, she discusses her family history, education, and the Native American community in Grand Rapids.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Bardwell, Belinda (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Potawatomi Indians
Bode'wadmi
Personal narratives
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Indians of North America--Education
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng