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Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Vietnam War
Ron Oakes
Length of interview: 01:52:08:00
Pre-Enlistment (0:00:20:00)
Born in Grand Rapids, MI on March 21, 1949; grew up in Grand Rapids and graduated from
Grandville High School in 1966 (0:00:20:00)
Father worked for Sears and Roebuck for over 30 years (0:00:33:00)
5 kids in the family, 3 girls and 2 boys (0:00:45:00)
After high school, he went to Grand Rapids Junior College for a year and at that time,
Vietnam was going on and all his friends going off to war, either through the draft or
enlisting, he was the last one left (0:00:57:00)
In June, 1967, he went to Detroit for what he thought was a physical and as it turned out, he
raised his right hand and was on a plane going to San Diego for boot camp; thought he was
going home that night and instead he was going West (0:01:12:00)
He enlisted and was not drafted because he felt it was the right thing to do (0:01:35:00)
o He is a volunteer person and when Vietnam was there, he would not wait (0:01:42:00)
o He had a high draft number because of college but college was not working out and he
could not keep his mind on his studies and he enlisted in June (0:01:48:00)
o Rough on his parents because at the time, his father was only 38 or 39 at the time and
when Oakes turned 38 or 39 and his son turned 18, he knew how his father felt at the
time when Oakes took off (0:02:00:00)
When he enlisted, he knew Vietnam was in Indochina and we where fighting the communists
who were trying to take over the country and we where helping a smaller country, much like
South Korea (0:02:23:00)
In the back of his mind he knew it would be dangerous, but being 18, he did not view it as
such (0:02:53:00)
Enlistment / Training (0:03:15:00)
Basic training was in San Diego, California at the Marine Corps recruit depot, where he went
through boot camp and then he went up to Camp Pendleton for the rest of his training
(0:03:15:00)
Went out to California on a commercial airline from Detroit to Chicago and the aircraft was
late getting into Chicago, so they held the next flight waiting for the 12 men going to San
Diego, although the other people on the plane were understanding because they did not get
upset (0:03:38:00)
o In Detroit they gave them airline tickets and picked someone to be in charge and make
sure everyone got on the plane (0:04:03:00)
o Recruit depot had a bus at the airport to pick everyone up and the Marines knew who
was coming and they checked everyone’s name off a list; from that point on, they
belonged to Uncle Sam and they did not go anywhere without a check list
(0:04:15:00)
�
At that point in time, the arrival was different from today; there was a lot of screaming and
hollering, such as “you're in the Marine Corps, you're not at home anymore, and you belong
to me” (0:04:29:00)
In boot camp, they went through a lot of training, such as how to use a rifle and how to
maneuver, and a lot of physical training, as well as classes on how to put on battle dressings
and sanitation and hygiene (0:04:50:00)
The drill instructors were Vietnam veterans that already had a tour or two in Vietnam and
returned and went to DI school and at that time, the drill instructors could be abusive and
harsh depending on what their attitude was (0:05:23:00)
o Oakes grew up saying “yes sir” or “no sir” to anyone older than him, and this made it
so he had no problem with authority while going through boot camp but some of the
people he was training with could not get the grasp of “yes sir” / “no sir” and they paid
the price for it (0:05:50:00)
If someone was overweight, the DIs placed them in a separate platoon to lose weight and they
had one instance when they were training, the fat platoon came by and one straggler collapsed
(0:06:23:00)
o They put him against a tree and being the middle of summer in southern California, it
was hot and he was suffering from heat stroke but they did not call medical attention
for the man and instead went on their 4 mile march and when they returned, he was
dead (0:06:40:00)
o Oakes's unit left and when they came back, all they saw was some people carrying a
body away (0:07:06:00)
In boot camp, they learned hand-to-hand combat using pogo sticks (0:07:16:00)
o Two guys would start and when one was knocked down, another would step in and the
man at the end had the best chance to be number one (0:07:25:00)
o Pogo sticks were long sticks with padded ends used for fighting and training for using
a rifle with a bayonet (0:07:44:00)
The original training was basic because they received more input from the instructors in the
Infantry Training Regiment at Camp Pendleton (0:08:24:00)
o Received their heavier training there, such as rifle qualification (0:08:38:00)
o Had staging battalion where they put the soldiers through a mock-up Vietnam village
which showed them how the bobby-traps were developed and what to look for and
what not to do (0:08:47:00)
o What they normally did, the American way of doing things, they changed, because
they enemy learned to use them against the American soldiers (0:09:12:00)
If there was an opening in the forest, that was where they would go because it
was easiest and the Americans did not want to take a machete and hack a new
path (0:09:24:00)
However, most of the time the opening was bobby-trapped and if you wanted
to get through a tree-line safe, you cut a new path and made sure it was away
from the opening (0:09:30:00)
Boot camp was 8 weeks and about 8 weeks in infantry training and after about 16 weeks, they
were allowed to go home on leave (0:09:54:00)
o Went home on leave in October and at that time, they went home in their Class-A
uniforms because the anti-Vietnam sentiment was not strong yet in 1967 (0:10:03:00)
o Being the first time he had ever been away from home, he was glad to get back and he
went around and visited family, slept in and ate a lot of good food (0:10:44:00)
�
The food in the mess hall was not bad and they could eat all they wanted and
while in boot camp, Oakes had to serve the officers and the DIs their meals
which caused him to miss out on the really dirty jobs in the mess hall
(0:10:59:00)
o Already knew where he was going because his orders already told him that he was
returning to Camp Pendleton to a staging battalion (0:11:38:00)
In boot camp he trained on the M1 and qualified on the M14 and in the staging
battalion, they trained on the M16 (0:11:46:00)
o On his last Saturday at home before returning, a buddy from junior college asked
Oakes if he would go on a blind date; Oakes agreed and went on the date, a canoe trip
in the Pine River with a woman named Cathy and they got along well, he took her
home that night and the next morning, at 7 o’clock, he was on a plane for Chicago
then on the Camp Pendleton (0:12:02:00)
Normally the staging battalion lasted 2 or 3 weeks but they had only been there for a week
before a list of people came out (0:13:02:00)
o Every morning they would fall out for formation and roll call and one morning, they
said that the following Marines step out and stand aside (0:13:13:00)
o Oakes was one of the six or eight chosen; they dismissed everyone else and told them
to get on the trucks for training and they then told the small group to get their gear
because they were returning to the main part of Camp Pendleton (0:13:24:00)
o Told that their named had been pulled and they were going to language school to train
to be interpreters, which got them out of training (0:13:39:00)
Went back and spent two, almost three weeks waiting for the Marines to get enough people in
because they need 150 men with the right test scores and when they had enough, they bused
the men up to Monterey, California (0:13:54:00)
o On the way to Monterey, some motorcyclists saw that it was military people and they
began gesturing and messing with the bus drivers but they eventually made a mistake
and getting in front of the lead bus, they slowed down too much and the bus driver
floored it and the last thing Oakes remembers was seeing the 3 motorcycles going into
the sand and the riders going flying, to which all the men on the buses cheered
(0:14:37:00)
Was not really great on language (0:15:39:00)
o At that point in time, they had cassette records with 8 inch tapes that they would listen
to and their instructors were 18 year old Vietnamese girls who trained in the
traditional clothing and who could speak enough English and naturally, very fluent in
Vietnamese (0:15:41:00)
o They went through the 12 weeks, had a good time in school, and everyone graduated
because at that point in the war, everyone passed (0:16:06:00)
o They were told by the Marines that the more they used the language in country with
the dialect, the better they would get and the Marines were right (0:16:18:00)
o While they were at the school, they were adopted by a Chinese family in Salinas,
California, who had four of the soldiers over for Thanksgiving (0:16:31:00)
A lot of families in the area were adopting military people for the holidays and
one weekend, the family took the 4 soldiers to San Francisco, where they went
to a very fancy restaurant and the soldiers played the roles of “guards”, with
two in the front in their Class-A uniforms and two in the back, also in their
Class-As (0:16:56:00)
o Language school lasted until early 1968 (0:17:45:00)
�Deployment (0:17:51:00)
Flew from Travis Air Force Base, north of San Francisco, to Okinawa, where they were for
four of 5 days getting shots (0:17:51:00)
o The only gear they were carrying was their clothes and the gear they would normally
be issued; they were not issued any combat gear or rifles (0:18:08:00)
o The time in Okinawa was getting their paperwork and shots done and because they
had to work on typewriters, the process took a long time and whereas nowadays, a
person will normally receive their orders with only their name on it, then, they might
put 200 names on an order because they would only type it once and then make copies
for everyone else and they always carried multiple copies of their orders because they
did not know when they would need to show someone their orders (0:18:17:00)
One day, the Marines took the men out to a Continental airlines jet, which was contracted at
the time, and flew them on a short flight to Da Nang and when they landed in Da Nang, as
soon as they opened the door there was a stairway down and they hurried the men off the
plane because Da Nang airfield was always getting hit with mortars or rockets (0:18:55:00)
When they were off the plane, they were taken to transit barracks, two story, wooden barracks
which were not air conditioned and only had screen windows, where they spent a day or so
there while the commanders decided where they would go as replacements; Okinawa was just
processing and the Marines did not know where they would send him until he was actually on
the ground (0:20:47:00)
Every morning, they had a formation in the rear-area to make a head count and keep track of
people (0:21:17:00)
o One morning in formation, they began calling names off, Oakes was one, and they told
them to get their gear and be in formation at another spot in 30 minutes (0:21:26:00)
They got on a truck and started heading south on Highway 1 (0:21:41:00)
o Around 20 minutes passed and they arrived at their new position at Camp Dong Song
Two, a Vietnamese village that was replaced by the Marine camp along Highway 1,
just south of a bridge south of Da Nang (0:21:45:00)
o The compound was the rear-area for the 27th Marine Regiment, as well as the 1st
Battalion of the regiment, with Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, and Delta companies
(0:22:02:00)
Once the soldiers were off the truck, the commanders divided them up amongst the companies
and some of the guys were the same guys Oakes had gone to language school with
(0:22:15:00)
The base was rudimentary (0:22:40:00)
o Some of the buildings were a 2x4 frame with canvas sides and others were a frame
with screen windows and wooden flaps that would come down at night and all had
corrugated roofs (0:22:48:00)
These were the offices, mess hall, barber shop, and med center (0:22:58:00)
o Living quarters were GP medium tents and they had bunkers, wire, and claymores on
the perimeter and 50 meters behind that was the living area (0:23:05:00)
o There was also a berm which made it harder for the enemy to shoot at the tents
(0:23:24:00)
o If they incoming fire, they had bunkers that they could jump in, most of which were
made out of sandbags and some had corrugated metal or railroad ties (0:23:34:00)
Assigned to 3rd Platoon, Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 27th Marines (0:23:54:00)
�
Was there as a regular rifleman that knew Vietnamese, but at that point, they were short of
radio operators (0:24:03:00)
The 27th Marines had just gotten to Vietnam themselves just a couple of weeks before and
they were short handed, which was why a lot of replacements were going to them
(0:24:16:00)
o They were on a float out of Hawaii and the President diverted them to Da Nang and
they were understrength, so they were building back up because they did not have the
critical MOS jobs: the radio operators, squad leaders, or machine gunners and as
replacements are coming in, they were filling in the positions to get up to full strength
(0:24:23:00)
o They never got to full strength; they were always around half (0:24:44:00)
The morning after he arrived, the platoon Lieutenant came out with the platoon sergeant and
asked who did not know how to operate a radio and four guys, including Oakes, raised their
hands, which was a mistake that Oakes learned, because they were now radio operators, even
through Oakes had never even seen a military radio before (0:24:54:00)
o They put them through on the job training; telling him to report to a corporal and he
would show them how to use a radio and they had a little class that showed them the
radio, how it worked, how to operate it, what to do and what a radio report was, all for
about an hour (0:25:20:00)
The next day, they were out on patrol and Oakes had eight or nine other guys out there and he
was the only one with communication and the others were in trouble because he did not how
to operate the radio (0:25:37:00)
o However, it only took him a couple of days to learn how to use the radio because his
and the other guys' lives depended on it and every chance he got, any question he had,
he asked somebody about how to use the radio properly (0:25:55:00)
Was a squad radio operator for two or three weeks and they would have two patrols a day, one
in the morning and one at night (0:26:03:00)
They were in what was termed “the rocket belt”, the area where the Viet Cong and the NVA
would shoot 120 mm rockets at Da Nang (0:26:23:00)
o All they needed was a mound of dirt to lay the rockets on a shoot it; they did not aim
it, they just pointed it at the airfield and hoped that it hit something and it was mostly
HI (Harassment and Interdiction) fire to keep the people awake (0:26:32:00)
The Marines’ job was the patrol and at night, they would go out just before dark and set-up a
position with a perimeter and would rotate as guys ate their C-rations (0:26:46:00)
o After dark, they would move from the position because the enemy saw they dig in and
the Marines had to keep it in the back of their mind that they were always being
watched, especially around Da Nang because of its civilian population (0:27:02:00)
o They would move around 100 meters and set up an ambush site because if the enemy
knew where the Marines were in the day, then they would be coming at night and the
Marines would set up on a likely trail down which they would come so instead of the
enemy ambushing the Marines, the Marines would ambush the enemy (0:27:24:00)
o Some nights they did not set up ambushes and they would just have a two to three
hour patrol in the dark (0:27:39:00)
They always had check points to report back to the company commanders and
the radio operator had a map, knew right where everyone was going and in his
log, he would report where everyone was and then everyone knew where the
patrol was (0:27:47:00)
�
o Did it day and night mainly to keep their presence in the area and to keep the enemy
off guard (0:28:02:00)
o At night, they would go down set paths but they never went down the same route two
nights in a row (0:28:10:00)
o On a map, it was divided into 1000 meter quadrants and they tried to have a patrol in
every quadrant, every day, so they could be on one side of the base patrolling at night
and be on the opposite side the next day (0:28:23:00)
o Occasionally, they would have movement and the point man would alert everyone
else, who promptly “hit the ground” (0:28:41:00)
o During the first couple of weeks, he does not recall much in the way of contact; other
units had contact but Oakes’ patrols did not and it was not unusually to have
something going on every night (0:28:52:00)
Was with the squad for a couple of weeks and was then promoted to platoon operator because
their original platoon radio operator had tipped a bobby-trap and was medevaced out and
Oakes was the next in line (0:29:20:00)
o When they had a platoon operation, then he would go wherever the platoon leader
went, whether it was to inspect a patrol base or the lines and he stayed with his
original platoon leader until the Lieutenant tripped a booby trap (0:29:37:00)
o Oakes became the platoon radio operator at the end of March (0:30:11:00)
In the first part of April, they moved up to Hue to take over some territory formerly held by
the 3rd Marines and they were still doing a lot of clean up from the battle of Hue during the
Tet Offensive (0:30:21:00)
o There were still a lot of North Vietnamese in the area and they did not care about
getting into firefights with Marines (0:30:34:00)
o Over the years, they had built a lot of heavy bunkers and a lot of fortifications in the
villages and the fortifications could not be seen from the air because the vegetation
quickly overgrew it (0:30:46:00)
They were in Da Nang for a couple of weeks and the first week of April, they were moved by
truck convoy to the Huế area, to a position south of Huế by about 6000 meters (0:30:58:00)
o They were still along Highway 1 and Oakes’ platoon was assigned the job of guarding
a bridge and part of the oil line that went from Phu Bai to Hue and their main patrol
base was across Highway 1 about 500 meters (0:31:16:00)
The base was built on one big mound of dirt, almost 100 meters tall, from
which they could see a long way and everyone knew that they were there
(0:31:36:00)
While they were at Huế, they did a lot of “no-name” operations when a couple of companies
in line would push the enemy towards another company, essentially catching them in a net
(0:32:04:00)
During one of the operations in the 2nd week of April, around the 13th, Oakes’ platoon was
detached to stay behind and protect the company area and the other two platoons went with
Bravo and Charlie companies to sweep through a Vietnamese village (0:32:30:00)
o The units swept through the village and got ambushed and Oakes was on radio watch
at the bridge and he could hear the ambush over the circuit (0:32:52:00)
o They had 26 killed and 46 wounded on that operation alone (0:33:24:00)
o Was in more combat in his seven months with the 27th Marine Regiment than in the
rest of his tour with the 4th Marines (0:33:29:00)
�o They could hear the fighting on the radio, as wells as screaming and hollering and they
could vaguely hear gunfire because, although the ambush was a ways away, it was
flat, so the sound echoed (0:33:41:00)
o Reinforcements eventually arrived and they managed to pull the Marines back during
the night but Oakes’ company was totally decimated (0:34:20:00)
They left 3 or 4 bodies on the battlefield because they could not get to them at
night and the next morning, they went to retrieve the bodies, which had been
stripped, mutilated, and had their equipment taken by the Viet Cong
(0:34:30:00)
o In the days following the battle, they took a third of Oakes’ platoon and put it into the
other companies and pulled the rest of Oakes’ company out of the area and into a safer
area to regroup (0:34:49:00)
They transferred people in from other companies to beef up Oakes’ company
because they were half the strength that they should have been before the battle
and after, they were even worse (0:35:02:00)
o That was the worst time because being in the hooch and hearing the battle and not
being able to help their friends was hard (0:35:17:00)
Close Calls (0:35:36:00)
There were few times when he got into dangerous situations while with the 27th Marines, such
as having his radio antenna shot off twice (0:35:36:00)
o One instance, they were on a patrol, it was raining and they started taking sniper fire
and there were only eight men in the patrol (0:35:50:00)
They hit the ground behind some logs and when Oakes went to use the radio,
he could not; the Viet Cong had a captured radio on the same frequency and
they kept flicking the microphone and when Oakes heard that, he knew that
they had been compromised (0:35:59:00)
He went to go to the secondary frequency and he heard the same thing; the
NVA were effectively jamming the radio signals (0:36:15:00)
The 8 men were in a circle, in the rain, taking sniper fire and they sat there for
two hours and because the NVA did not know the Marines’ true strength was,
they did not rush them (0:36:21:00)
After about 2 hours, the sniper fire stopped and they retraced their steps and
got out of the position (0:36:34:00)
o That was the first time that Oakes was a little leery of how long he was going to be in
Vietnam (0:36:42:00)
o Another time, he stepped on a booby-trap 105 round that did not go off and Oakes was
very fortunate because it would have taken out four of the Marines (0:36:50:00)
They were on a patrol in the 327 area because the Marines had moved them
back to a desert / sandy area near the coast and they were keeping fifteen to
twenty feet apart (0:36:58:00)
Oakes was always behind the Lieutenant, either to his right or his left,
so that he could get the radio to the Lieutenant as quickly as possible of
they got attacked (0:37:18:00)
They were walking and the Lieutenant must have just missed stepping on the
bobby-trap (0:37:35:00)
They never walked on the paths because that was where the Viet Cong placed
the punji sticks and trip wires (0:37:43:00)
�
Oakes was on one side and the Lieutenant was on the other and Oakes’ side
was where the hole was and Oakes stepped on the trap, a C-Ration sleeve, a
105 round, and a board with a nail in it, and if he pushed down in the cone, the
round would have exploded (0:37:54:00)
He stepped on the edge and pushed the round away and as he felt himself
going into the hole, he instinctively fell to his left because he had the radio on
his back and as soon as he fell, he crawled away as fast as he could in case the
trap had a delayed fuse (0:38:25:00)
Oakes made a noise and Lieutenant, seeing what was happening, dived as well
and soon everyone else on the patrol was diving for the ground (0:38:52:00)
The Lieutenant and Oakes crawl back to the hole and seeing what was in the
hole, move away because they feared a Viet Cong would be waiting nearby
with a detonator but as it turned out, nobody was around (0:39:07:00)
Oakes took a couple of pictures of the trap with a camera that he carried and an
engineer with the patrol had some C4 with him and he put C4 around the cone
(0:39:32:00)
Nearby was a trench that a bulldozer had dug because whenever they had
finished a firefight, a small bulldozer was helicoptered in to dig a trench for the
Viet Cong bodies (0:39:56:00)
There was nothing in the trench and after setting up a perimeter with soldiers
look in every direction, they yelled fire in the hole to alert everyone to what
would be happening (0:40:15:00)
While they were in the trench, someone suggested that it would be
funny if the Viet Cong had rigged the trench to explode when the
booby-trap did (0:40:34:00)
Everyone got out of the trench and after lying flat on the ground, the
Lieutenant had the engineer explode the booby trap and luckily, the trench did
not explode as well (0:40:56:00)
o Booby-trapping the hole would have been something that the Viet Cong did because
they knew the patterns of the American soldiers (0:41:06:00)
Americans always took the easiest way and this got a lot of people killed in
Vietnam because either they were not think or they were thinking Stateside, i.e.
the easy way (0:41:27:00)
o Had a B-40 rocket impact a wall near him (0:41:50:00)
During Operation Allenbrook, they had a unit in the middle of the rice paddies
with a perimeter and some amtraks and the unit got hit during the night and
Oakes unit was about 500 meters away in a hamlet (0:41:57:00)
A Viet Cong fired a B-40 at an amtrak and the rocket went over the top of the
Am-Trac (0:42:19:00)
Oakes’ unit was watching fighting because the commanders feared that the
Americans in the rice paddy would mistake them for the enemy and shoot at
them and they watched as the rocket came towards them and impacted on a
wall behind them (0:42:23:00)
o Within twenty-four hours after the rocket incident, after the battle in the rice paddy,
Oakes’ unit received intelligence from a village that about fifty NVA were moving
south and since they had not been in a battle, it was their job to sweep the battlefield
and move south and attempt to capture the fifty NVA (0:42:42:00)
�
About Ninety minutes after they started, they were two klicks south and they
had contact with an aerial observer who tells that he sees the NVA moving in
the open and he says that he is calling in some fixed wing aircraft (0:43:05:00)
They were watching at the edge of rice paddy dike and Oakes is listening to the
observer, who gives him the coordinates of the NVA, which Oakes showed to
his Lieutenant, who told him that those are the unit’s coordinates (0:43:26:00)
The unit turned and watched as a pair of A-4 Skyhawks came around and
towards them and the Lieutenant yelled for everyone to get down and the first
A-4’s bombs impact in the woodlands beyond the dike and the men can hear
the shrapnel sailing over their heads (0:43:51:00)
As the second A-4 came around, Oakes was yelling into the radio and
everyone else was popping their smoke grenades (0:44:25:00)
The pilot must have got the word because he did not drop the bombs and he
began wiggling his wings (0:44:46:00)
The flyboys would protect the infantry and the infantry would do
anything to protect them (0:45:25:00)
On Go Noi Island, his platoon was in a company perimeter for the night during another “noname operation” an at about 1 o’clock in the morning, he got a radio call from one of the
squads saying that they saw campfires to the north (0:46:02:00)
o The Lieutenant and Oakes went out the perimeter and got into a foxhole with one of
the soldiers and sure enough, about 1000 meters out, they could see the campfires and
it was obviously not Americans (0:46:31:00)
o Right off the bat, the Marines know it is a ruse because the NVA knew where the
Marines were and they would not build campfires; the NVA were just trying to get
someone’s attention to see what was going on (0:46:43:00)
o First, the Marines alerted the other units at the south end of the perimeter to keep their
eyes open because there was something going on and it might have been heading their
way (0:46:56:00)
o Meanwhile, the Marines called in “Puff the Magic Dragon”, who saturated the
campfires and if anyone was building the campfires, they did not survive (0:47:05:00)
“Puff” could put down one round every square foot and could cover the area of
a football field in four seconds (0:47:12:00)
At that point, “Puff the Magic Dragon” was a C-47 converted with Miniguns in
it that would fly at a bank and in such a way that all the firepower was
concentrated in one position (0:47:21:00)
They could see a red line from “Puff” to the ground, this was from tracers, but
in between every tracer were four other bullets and from a distance, all they
heard was a “whirring” noise (0:47:41:00)
o “Puff” fired for about 10 minutes and there was no chance that anyone was alive down
by the campfires, if there was anyone to begin with (0:48:01:00)
o Believes that the NVA knew what the Marines would do, so they lit the fires and got
the “heck out of Dodge” and they knew that the Marines would retaliate with artillery,
aircraft, or something (0:48:10:00)
o The whole perimeter was then on alert and nobody was sleeping and around three
o’clock, they received a call from the squad on the south end; they had movement in
from of them (0:48:25:00)
They figured that something would happen somewhere and here came the
movement (0:48:39:00)
�
o The squad on the perimeter kept watching as the movement got closer and they started
seeing crawling bodies in the moonlight and at three o’clock, someone blew a whistle
or a horn and the enemy all stood up and charged (0:48:48:00)
o The Marine M60 gunners were ready for them and all the Vietnamese had homemade
grenades wrapped around their waists, so as soon as the first Vietnamese stood up, the
machine gunner hit him in the belly and exploded the grenade and started a chain
reaction and they later learned that the first Vietnamese was blown in half
(0:49:02:00)
o As Vietnamese were attacking, Oakes was sitting in a bomb crater holding two radios
because the other radio operator went with the Lieutenant to the line and leaves were
falling around him from the bullets flying over him (0:49:45:00)
Had one radio in each hand talking to both the company and the battalion to let
them know what was going on and he was trying to be as calm as he can while
ducking into his flak jacket (0:50:03:00)
Looking back, it was slightly comical how he was able to be so calm in the
middle of the fight (0:50:24:00)
o While the fighting was happening, the battalion was preparing a reaction force to
come at first light, 5:00-5:30 in the morning and the firefight continued for the rest of
the night (0:50:50:00)
o The NVA never got into the perimeter and apart from a few scratches on some guys,
Oakes’ platoon came out of the fight okay and the next day, they counted 24 dead
NVA (0:51:05:00)
o The tragic part about the fight was near the tail-end of the fight, they called in their
own 81 mm mortars and the first round dropped inside the Marine’s perimeter
(0:51:25:00)
The unit’s corpsmen had been moving around the whole night and when they
returned to their position, the mortar round struck the tree above them and
blew both their heads off (0:51:37:00)
Oakes knew them and he collected their bodies (0:52:04:00)
Does not think that they ever got use to what they saw; they buried it, which is why there are a
lot of soldiers are with problems, and they did not have time to think about it, only time to
react (0:52:28:00)
Go Noi Island / Operation Allenbrook (0:52:52:00)
During Go Noi Island, they were at another base / patrol area with a perimeter, it was raining
heavily and 81 mm mortars were shooting illumination rounds out because there was
movement outside the perimeter (0:52:52:00)
o Oakes was on radio watch with the platoon sergeant and they had dug a small hole for
2 people that had begun filling up with water and all of the sudden, a mortar misfired
and the round went straight through the poncho covering the hole and landed between
Oakes and the sergeant and although it threw mud into the ears of the sergeant,
causing him to be medivaced out, it did not detonate (0:53:07:00)
o When the round landed, both men said a few quick words and they got out of the hole,
leaving everything behind, even the radios (0:54:01:00)
Go Noi Island was south of Da Nang during Operation Allenbrook (0:54:24:00)
o All companies from all battalions in the 27th Marine Regiment eventually rotated in
and out of the island (0:54:34:00)
�
o Was an NVA staging area for attacks on Da Nang, with the 36th and 38th NVA
Regiments there, hardcore regulars not apt to run away like the Viet Cong; they would
stand and fight, which cost the Marines a lot of battles (0:54:38:00)
o The NVA would wait until the Marines were right on top of them and then ambush
them (0:54:57:00)
They knew that the Marines could not call in air strikes and were reluctant to
call in supporting fire and they would envelop the Marines and come around
the sides (0:55:03:00)
During Operation Allenbrook, the company radio operator was wounded and Oakes was
chosen to replace him (0:55:19:00)
o The next day, the man that Oakes chose to be his replacement in the platoon went out
on a platoon patrol and they were not gone more that 30 minutes before they heard an
explosion; the replacement had tripped a booby-trap (0:55:32:00)
The trap exploded behind him and the radio absorbed most of the shrapnel, but
the back of soldier’s legs and arms were torn up and the trap also took out the
platoon Lieutenant and the corpsman (0:56:04:00)
Operation Allenbrook was an effort to eradicate the NVA from Go Noi Island, what
intelligence called a “second Tet” (0:56:53:00)
o The Marines rotated units in and out if the area, with the 3rd Marines going first,
followed by the 27th Marine Regiment, who at one point, had all the battalions in the
regiment in the area because the fighting was so heavy (0:57:26:00)
o There was fighting almost every day (0:57:47:00)
o The “island” name was kind of bogus; it was in the rice paddies south of Da Nang and
a river went around one side and canals went around the other (0:58:01:00)
o There was easy access to the island and NVA troops had been on the island for a while
because during the Marines’ search and destroy mission, they found hospitals, R&R
centers, barracks, mess halls, caches of rice and weapons (0:58:32:00)
o Eventually, the Marines finally sent in engineers with bulldozers to flatten the island
because all the villages on the island were fortified with a fort underneath and the huts
on top (0:58:54:00)
“No name” operations were hammer and sickle operations when two companies would sweep
in different parts of the island that intelligence said had a large force of movement of NVA or
Viet Cong in an area (1:00:36:00)
o They would move a company in behind the NVA, either with helicopter or marching
at night and the other two companies would march and sweep (1:00:55:00)
o On Go Noi Island, just about every sweep was successful; they had contact on all of
them and everyday on Go Noi Island they heard gunfire; somebody on the island was
fighting somebody (1:01:11:00)
o Has pictures of his unit in a tree line watching as F-4 Phantoms dropped napalm in
assistance of another unit (1:01:22:00)
They did not know who the other unit was because they were on their own
radio frequencies (1:01:33:00)
o The only frequency he had was with battalion and he could hear the other companies
calling in and asking for assistance (1:01:35:00)
He could also hear the platoons talking to the company and the squads talking
to the platoon (1:01:47:00)
They had good coordination although occasionally, in the heat of battle, there would be
misidentification of units (1:02:21:00)
�
o More than once, friendly fire would take someone out, whether it be an aircraft, as
what almost happened to Oakes at the rice paddy, or 81 mm mortars (1:02:34:00)
o More than once, they heard “cease-fire, friendly fire; your firing on friendly troops”; it
did not happen all the time but it was not unusually to hear about it (1:02:44:00)
o When they put in a call for support, the response from the air depended on who was on
station; most of the time it was not hard to get because it seemed like the air was full
of aircraft (1:03:21:00)
The only problem was that artillery could not fire if aircraft were in the area
(1:03:32:00)
o Any operation they had, they were covered by artillery (1:03:44:00)
They could be within 20 miles and still cover the Marines (1:03:48:00)
They were attacking a tree line one time in Huế and they were taking fire from
a pagoda and they called in artillery, which was the first time Oakes had seen
their artillery firing (1:03:54:00)
The artillery was firing air burst rounds and some of the rounds were
detonating behind the Marines, instead of in front of them (1:04:08:00)
Any time they had artillery firing over them, the Marines got flat on the ground
(1:04:16:00)
Artillery had several different rounds (1:04:23:00)
Air burst rounds looked like fireworks with a puff and the shrapnel was
away (1:04:25:00)
Rounds that detonated 3 feet off the ground and acted like daisy cutters
(1:04:31:00)
Hard rounds that just dug a hole in the ground and exploded
(1:04:38:00)
They were never denied fire, although sometimes, it was really quick and
sometimes it took a bit because the artillery might have been supporting
another mission and they were never told that the artillery was out of ammo
(1:04:51:00)
At Da Nang and Go Noi Island, the camaraderie was always there (1:05:17:00)
o Did not matter if it was Marines or Navy flying the aircraft, there was always
something up there, whether it be jets or helicopters (1:05:19:00)
o If helicopters were making supply runs and the Marines called in for medivacs, the
supply helicopters came in (1:05:37:00)
o One time during Allenbrook, they called in for a medevac and the helicopter that came
in had the highest ranking Marine Corps general in the theater on it (1:05:58:00)
o If there was a medevac, everything stops and they got the wounded soldiers out
(1:06:21:00)
Believes this was why the casualty rate was a lot lower than World War II,
because they did have good medevac capabilities (1:06:24:00)
When he was on a hospital ship, he would see medevacs come in every hour
with Every kind of helicopter, from the old Korean era to Hueys to Chinooks
to C-46s (1:06:31:00)
o Depended on whether the medevac call was routine, priority or emergency
(1:07:03:00)
Routine was when they got a chance, stop; such as the platoon sergeant with
the mud in his ears who was not critical and in danger of death (1:07:08:00)
�
Priority was when the soldier was not in danger of dying then but their was a
possibility i.e. getting shot in the leg (1:07:22:00)
Emergency was when the soldier was in dire straits i.e. sucking chest wound
and if they did not get the soldier out immediately, he was gone (1:07:37:00)
o The fact that the helicopters were always there gave the Marines a sense of safety and
it took the edge off of being alone cause they knew that they always had someone to
help them (1:07:58:00)
o When he first got to the squad, he was in a foxhole one night and the platoon sergeant
came up and Oakes asked when they would be getting more people in the foxholes
(1:08:10:00)
The sergeant said to just remember that for every 1 Marine, there were 16
others in the supply chain to supply them with everything that they needed and
Oakes said that all he needed was about 3 of them in the foxhole with him
(1:08:27:00)
4th Marine Regiment / Khe Sanh (1:09:01:00)
On September 12, 1968 the 1st Battalion of the 27th Marine Regiment folded their flag and
went home as part of President Johnson’s de-escalation (1:09:01:00)
o Everybody that still had a long time to go on their tour in Vietnam transferred to the 1st
Marine Division at Quảng Trị (1:09:13:00)
o Everyone on their second tour and the short timers went home with the 1st Battalion
but only twenty men from the battalion went home with the flag (1:09:25:00)
However, as they stopped in Hawaii and Okinawa, the Marines added more
people to the battalion so that when the battalion was on parade in San Diego,
hardly anyone was originally from 27th Marine Regiment (1:09:42:00)
o On the 12th, they flew to Quảng Trị, specifically Dong Ha Air Force base and they
were trucked into Quảng Trị (1:10:01:00)
Quảng Trị was the rear-area for the 4th Marine Regiment and Oakes was
assigned to Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, where he
stayed for the remainder of his tour (1:10:14:00)
In Da Nang, it was a lot of rice paddies, villages, and interactions with villagers; in Quảng Trị,
it was the North and any villages in the jungle had been evacuated and the area was a free-fire
zone (1:10:34:00)
o If they saw somebody, no matter who they were, the soldiers shot them and all the
villagers knew that the areas were free-fire (1:10:49:00)
After they landed, they spent the first couple of days getting acclimated and being assigned to
units and Oakes had to take a convoy up to his unit at LZ Stud, Vandergrift Combat Base, on
Highway 9 and he happened to get into a truck carrying artillery rounds (1:11:18:00)
o LZ Stud was the jump-off point for the relief mission to Khe Sanh to break the siege
(1:11:54:00)
o The trip to LZ Stud was through the mountains and on dirt roads and every so often,
they would see a squad protecting a bulldozer that was repairing a hole in the road
(1:12:08:00)
When they got to LZ Stud at twilight, the unit Oakes was assigned to was a mile further down
Highway 9, right where Highway 9 made a direct turn to the west and at the turn was a
platoon base camp with wire surrounding it and a heavy communications bunker (1:12:46:00)
�
o Right away, Oakes was assigned to the radio section because radio operators were
high priority targets and they were short and he ended up working with the platoon
radio operator (1:13:45:00)
o They never got hit in the camp because there were no NVA units in the area
(1:14:06:00)
o The second night Oakes was in the camp, he was on radio watch and a Marine came
into the bunker with a loaded weapon, intending to kill everyone in the bunker
(1:14:16:00)
Oakes was in his bunk while the Marine raved about how he was not going to
do it any more, that he was not going back out and that they could not make
him (1:14:35:00)
Oakes fell off his bunk and crawled out the door with the man next to him and
they went around and got the platoon sergeant who was checking the perimeter
and brought the sergeant to the door behind the crazy Marine to jump him
(1:14:49:00)
They eventually disarmed the man and sent him to the rear and when Oakes
went to the rear in February, the man was still there (1:15:06:00)
How the man survived Oakes does not know because there was more than one
fragging incident with men who put other men in jeopardy in the field
(1:15:38:00)
The platoon eventually got pulled back to LZ Stud with the rest of the company and a few
days later, they were out on a combat mission south of Khe Sanh, doing a search operation
looking for ammo dumps, mass graves, or current troop locations (1:15:52:00)
o Did tours like this for the rest of his time in Vietnam (1:16:31:00)
o The first time the Marines hit they did not have any contact (1:16:42:00)
o They were helicoptered into a cleared hilltop and after setting a perimeter and
receiving more troops, they would single file through the jungle on a certain path
(1:16:53:00)
o One day, the 60 mm mortars were lobbing rounds down the hill in case someone was
forming and they hit at an enemy ammo dump; they sent a patrol after the explosions
ended and they found a hut with 60 mm mortar rounds lined up on shelves and they
had hit it (1:17:0:00)
Eventually, they were pulled off those operations and back to LZ Stud for a couple of days
(1:18:14:00)
o There were three fire bases in the area: (1:18:24:00)
o LZ Russell, which they closed (1:18:26:00)
o LZ Gurkha, which was as far north and west as they could go in South Vietnam
(1:18:28:00)
From LZ Gurkha, they could look to the west at night and see the NVA troops
moving down the Ho Chi Minh trail in Laos, however, they could not attack
them, even though they were supplies and troops going south to the enemy
(1:18:39:00)
This did not sit well with the Marines and one time, they decided to run an
ambush to the west, so in the early morning, they went out past the claymores
and as it was, to a knoll that they though was hay but turned out to be elephant
grass (1:19:01:00)
When the Marines were walking through the grass, they could not be
more than 10 feet apart or they would lose contact (1:19:32:00)
�
Going along a trail in the grass, one of the other Marines alerted,
“beware of hole”, a three foot diameter hole that they could not see the
bottom of and that they surmised was an undetonated bomb dropped
from a B-52 (1:19:45:00)
Someone suggested that they drop a grenade down the hole in case it
was an enemy hole but when Oakes suggested that he could not out run
the explosion if it was a 2000 lb bomb, the man changed his mind
(1:20:11:00)
They always tried to make levity of the dangerous times just to break the ice (1:20:30:00)
While he was with the 4th Marines doing the searching, resupply was hard and they were
going days without getting resupplied and they eventually ran out of water and halizone
tablets (1:20:44:00)
o If they came across a fast running mountain stream, they could drink it because it was
pure; Oakes came across a stream that he thought was moving fast enough to be pure
and he filled his canteen and a few weeks later, he had dysentery (1:20:59:00)
o After doing their searches, they put the Marines into a firebase rotation; they would be
at one base for a while then move to another (1:21:37:00)
o They were in the later part of October / beginning of November and Oakes remembers
having “bloody shits”; he could not eat or drink anything because it would go straight
through him and he lost a lot of weight (1:21:57:00)
o Oakes knew something was wrong and the only thing that the corpsman could suggest
was taking his malaria pills along with his salt pills (1:22:21:00)
o Went for a month to 6 weeks and it ended before Thanksgiving (1:22:32:00)
Mid-November, Oakes received orders to report to the rear because he has been chosen to be
the mail orderly and Oakes was glad because the job got him out of the bush and the rain
(1:22:49:00)
o He went to the rear and while waiting for the supply helicopter, he told the men that he
will get them their mail (1:23:02:00)
o After spending the night in a tent, Oakes reported to sick call because he was still not
feeling well and when he walked in, there were twelve people already there, so he got
in line (1:23:15:00)
After being examined, the corpsman handed Oakes a form, told him to sit on a
bench and told Oakes that he had dysentery and that he was going to a hospital
ship (1:23:28:00)
o Oakes did not know the Americans even had hospital ships (1:23:48:00)
The ships would rotate with one up near Hue taking casualties for three days
and then returning to Da Nang for fuel while the other took its place
(1:23:58:00)
o The next helicopter that came in, they put Oakes and a couple of other men on it and it
took them out to the U.S.S. Repose, where they checked Oakes in, took his clothes,
made him take a bath, gave him a hospital gown to wear and made him go to sleep
(1:24:13:00)
o For the first 3 days, he was fed in bed and he did not get out of bed, but eventually, he
became ambulatory so that he could help feed the other guys in the ward (1:24:51:00)
o Spent 4 weeks on the hospital ship, including Thanksgiving, and he saw an Australian
USO show (1:25:11:00)
o While he was on the hospital ship, his platoon was pulled out of the bush and was put
on the U.S.S. New Jersey with 3 days liberty and they were on the New Jersey waving
�
at Oakes on the Repose and he was waving back, although he did not know it was
them at the time (1:25:24:00)
Was on the hospital ship for thirty days, was left out in Da Nang and eventually returned to
Quảng Trị where the regimental rear-area was, but before going back to his unit, the regiment
was in the middle of an operation and they were grabbing everyone that could fire a weapon
and putting them into an ad hoc group (1:26:09:00)
o They were going to circle a village that they had reports of deserters in a village with
Viet Cong and NVA and in the middle of a rainstorm during the night, they got off
their trucks some led the soldiers around the village, which had a perimeter at least a
mile long (1:26:44:00)
o When daylight came, they had tanks plus the soldiers, who had dug holes when they
first arrived and improved them during the daylight and they stayed for three days
(1:27:21:00)
o It was neat watching the tanks fire, which had Starlight scopes on the tank, meaning
that they could fire at night and one night, Oakes, who had gotten to know the tankers,
was called over to a tank and they showed him the Starlight screen (1:27:41:00)
On the screen, Oakes could see a log about a mile out from which behind
enemy heads would pop up and telling Oakes to continue watching the screen,
the tankers maneuvered the turret and fired, destroying the log (1:28:04:00)
When the operation was over, the Marines were sent back to the rear and Oakes rejoined his
unit, where he served as platoon operator again (1:28:45:00)
o Rejoined his unit on Firebase Gurkha, where they went on the patrol in Laos and from
Firebase Gurkha, they returned to LZ Stud for rest, recuperation, and resupply then
went to LZ Neville, which, while at the north end of the Khe Sanh valley, was further
east and just south of the DMZ by maybe three or four klicks (1:28:59:00)
o Spent the rest of his time at LZ Neville, his last 3 weeks in the field in March
(1:29:26:00)
o Whereas LZ Gurkha was on a grass knoll and on the slope to the east was a trail that
went down to water, LZ Neville was on a mountain that was all rock that came up like
a shoe where one side was really steep and the other was sloped (1:29:44:00)
They built a command bunker when they got there, although it was only empty
ammo boxes, steel rails, ponchos and rope and whenever a resupply helicopter
came in, the bunker blew over because the firebase itself was so small
(1:30:21:00)
If they did not come in right, the pallet of C-Rations would go down the
cliffside (1:30:55:00)
o At night, they would drop grenades to deter anyone from crawling up the side of the
cliff (1:31:16:00)
o They thought that they had activity one night, but they never got hit and only after
Oakes left did the LZ end up getting hit (1:31:42:00)
o On the sloped part, they put out listening posts out at night, much like every night he
was in Vietnam and one night, they heard noises and threw some hand grenades
(1:31:47:00)
The next night, about a dozen rock apes came up and started throwing rocks at
the men in the post, who could not fire back, lest they give up their position
(1:32:15:00)
o They did a run a patrol into a ravine and up a hill, and halfway up, the point man
signaled; they had run into an NVA bunker complex (1:32:45:00)
�
The complex was older and no one was there but they had walked passed and
did not notice it, thus indicating how well they were concealed; they reported
the complex, turned around, and returned to base (1:33:11:00)
Around March 1st, he got pulled off of LZ Neville because he was a short-timer with thirty
days left and the Marines took him out of combat and placed him in the rear and he spent his
last thirty days as the NCO in charge of transit (1:33:31:00)
o Every other night he had perimeter guard duty and during the day, if someone new
came in, a replacement, Oakes took them to supply to get their weapon, flak jacket and
everything to get them ready to go and when they time came, he took them down to
operations so that the replacement could get on the next resupply helicopter
(1:33:44:00)
o One night when Oakes was not on guard they got hit by 82 mm mortars (1:34:35:00)
Oakes heard the first round thump and explode and he then stuck his head out
the bunker flap and the next round landed in front of an Army bunker in front
of Oakes’ bunker (1:34:51:00)
Oakes went looking for some new soldiers at the other end of his bunker and
he could not find them and he eventually finds them huddled in another bunker
shaking (1:36:04:00)
o Another time, when Oakes was on guard duty, they kept hearing movement in front of
them, so one night they reported it and the next night, they had an Army “Duster”, a
tracked vehicle with four 40 mm cannons, clear all the trees off of the bank
(1:36:38:00)
o Another night, they heard more noise and Oakes told the M79 soldier to fire a couple
of rounds onto the bank, as well as their machine gunner and when they do, someone
on the radio demanded to know what the firing was (1:37:29:00)
Oakes told him that they heard noise, fired and he asked what the man was
going to do about it (1:37:49:00)
Oakes was short, so he did not care (1:37:54:00)
o As a parting joke, on his last night on perimeter, he took out an eight man patrol with
him on point and they just went around the perimeter and returned in thirty minutes
(1:38:02:00)
The Marines flew him and a couple of others down by C-130 to Da Nang and in Da Nang,
Oakes met up with some of the men he had come in with (1:38:22:00)
o They figured out what happened to the other guys they came over with and they spent
2 days in Da Nang waiting for transport out (1:38:42:00)
o Went back through Okinawa for more shots and from there, some of the men went to
El Toro Naval Air Station in Los Angeles (1:38:57:00)
o Because Oakes was a short-timer, if he had gone home on thirty days leave and come
back, he would have only had two weeks left; instead, if someone had less than two
months less, they just discharged him (1:39:09:00)
Once Oakes got on the radio, he used his language training once; the rest of the time was used
learning how to use the radio and how to call in reports, air strikes, and artillery strikes and
they did have an interpreter with them and they used him most of the time (1:39:36:00)
He had a lot of contact with the civilian population in Da Nang but when they were in the Khe
Sanh area, they did not see any civilians (1:40:05:00)
o In Da Nang, the relations depended in the area; on Go Noi Island, they could sense the
hostility (1:40:17:00)
�
o In Hue, it was totally different; when they were guarding the bridge, Oakes went to
check on the guards and when one took a break, Oakes took his place (1:40:25:00)
Oakes heard screaming and hollering coming from the village and a lady
walked up on the roadway and came running towards the bridge carrying a
baby, that was blue and ice cold (1:40:46:00)
The baby was dead, it had fallen into a bomb crater filled with water and
drowned, and this was Oakes’ first encounter with death and although he felt
bad, there was nothing he could do except explain in his broken Vietnamese
that there was nothing he could do (1:41:12:00)
o There were times when they would sweep through a village and everyone would be
waving and when they turned around, the Marines would trip all the bobby-traps
(1:42:00:00)
o They never went through a village where they did not find booby traps (1:42:23:00)
o When they surrounded the village looking for the deserters, the children would come
out the perimeter looking for candy, although looking back, Oakes realizes that they
were just scoping out the location of the soldiers (1:42:35:00)
Whenever they had an operation with the Vietnamese Army, they never found anything, and
if the ARVNs suddenly disappeared, the Marines knew that they were going to be in combat
(1:43:12:00)
o Oakes met some good officers in the ARVN but for the most part, their commanders
were bad (1:43:41:00)
o Worked with ARVN mostly around Da Nang and Hue (1:44:03:00)
At the time that Oakes was in Vietnam, the morale of the units was high, partly because they
were isolated from news about back in the United States, with no newspaper and radio and
they had to rely on people coming in, although they did occasionally receive Stars and Stripes
and there they read about the riots (1:44:31:00)
o For the most part, the morale of the troops in the field was good, apart from
complaining about the lack of food or water, the muddy conditions (1:45:03:00)
o As far as fighting in the war, there was very little, if any, anti-war sentiments
(1:45:14:00)
He got more worn down with the 4th Marines because it was always wet and subdued and they
were always walking and climbing (1:45:32:00)
o In Da Nang, it was not as intense, although they were under fire all the time and in the
DMZ, they were fighting mother nature more and picking up the remnants of the battle
of Khe Sanh (1:45:53:00)
Going Home (1:46:35:00)
Landed at El Toro Naval Air Station and got discharged out of there and he went with 5 other
guys that he went with through Chicago, where they split (1:46:35:00)
o The bus driver recommended that they take off their uniforms and travel in civilian
clothes because of the strong anti-military sentiment (1:46:52:00)
Got home and his whole family was waiting with a big sign on the house (1:47:16:00)
o He was in Vietnam and in combat one day and a couple of days later, he was at home,
so there was not a lot of transition time; the family could be sitting talking about less
important things and he could still be think about Vietnam and the patrol and the
firefight from the night before (1:47:24:00)
o Was lucky because he came home to a stable family (1:47:53:00)
�
o His father was a deacon with the Baptist church and being in the Marines had changed
Oakes’ vocabulary, so he had to watch himself and he was very cautious about what
he said (1:47:58:00)
Getting back to normal took a while (1:48:26:00)
o During a church softball game, a friend who had only been back from Vietnam a few
weeks was on first base and Oakes was on third and a car backfired in the parking lot;
instinctively, both men hit the ground while everyone else laughed (1:48:30:00)
Got back to dating girls (1:49:03:00)
o One time, he asked one girl out whom he had dated before leaving, but her father,
meeting him at the door, said that he did not trust Oakes anymore because they had
heard the stories about returning soldiers and how they treated girls (1:49:05:00)
While he was in Vietnam, he would have to write to someone about everything that was
happening and he would write to the girl he went on the blind date with before leaving for
deployment (1:49:37:00)
o Never wrote anything to his parents because they would worry (1:49:43:00)
o Eventually met up with her when he got home and they dated off and on and
eventually, they were at his parent’s house with another couple and they were going
for pizza when Oakes asked if she wanted to get married (1:50:05:00)
o She thought he meant go for pizza and he said “no”, and she said, “yeah okay” and
they got married eighteen months after he returned from Vietnam and they have three
children and five grandchildren (1:50:41:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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OakesR
Title
A name given to the resource
Oakes, Ronald (Interview outline and video, 1 of 2), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Oakes, Ronald
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Oakes was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in March 1949. After briefly attending junior college, he enlisted in June 1967 and received training at the Marine Corps Recruit Depot and Camp Pendleton, California. He then received instruction in the Vietnamese language before being sent to Vietnam. Once he arrived, he was trained as a radio operator and assigned to a squad in the 27th Marine Regiment in the Da Nang area, soon becoming his platoon's radio operator, and saw extensive combat experience. When the 27th was rotated home, he was reassigned to 4th Marines at Quang Tri, and operated between Quang Tri and Hue before being sent inland toward Khe Sanh. While in this area, he contracted dysentery and was sent to a hospital ship where he spent a month aboard a hospital ship before being returned to his unit. When his tour was over, re was sent home and discharged in 1969.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-06-15
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c8b4ee45089ee0fd932ce8039f7c4eda.pdf
d3622a115befe57327166e75abb82d90
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Gregg Larabel
Interview Length: (1:23:32)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: We're talking today with Greg Larabel of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History
Project. Okay Gregg begin with some background on yourself and to begin with where and
when were you born?
I was born in Grand Rapids, St. Mary’s November 2nd, 1944.
Interviewer: Okay now did you grow up in Grand Rapids or did you move around?
Yes, I grew up, went to St. Francis Grade School, Catholic Central High School and- and then
into the Air Force.
(1:04)
Interviewer: Okay and what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?
My- my dad was the yardmaster of C&O Railroad and my mom worked various part-time jobs,
but she was mostly a stay-at-home, raising six kids.
Interviewer: Okay and had your dad been in the service or was he a little older or?
Yeah, he was in World War II, Army Air Corps. Never went overseas but was stationed in
Pennsylvania, Indiantown Gap and it was a war- prisoner of war camp.
Interviewer: Okay and did he ever talk about any of the experiences there?
No but he did write a journal and he's got, I have a journal of his that he wrote for one year when
he went in and while he was at Indiantown Gap so it was pretty interesting.
Interviewer: Okay alright so basically when you, after you graduated high school you
joined the Air Force?
�Yes sir.
(2:06)
Interviewer: Okay and what led to that decision?
Well my dad was a- a amateur radio operator and fixed radios and TVs for everybody in the
neighborhood and everybody in his circle of friends and I always was interested in- in electronics
so I thought I would go into the Air Force and- and learn electronics, and fortunately… you
never know what you're gonna do when you go in the Air Force but I scored high in- in
electronic aptitude and I was put into autopilot systems.
Interviewer: Okay so when do you actually join the Air Force?
October of, October 10th, 1962.
Interviewer: Okay and once you sign up now what happens to you?
Then I go to Detroit and take my physical and from there we go to Lackland Air Force Base.
(3:06)
Interviewer: Okay now was the physical a fairly serious one or a fairly cursory one?
No, seemed cursory there was a lot of guys that rejected for flat feet, asthma, and so on, but it
was kind of a routine. I was in pretty good shape from running cross-country.
Interviewer: Okay because it- it was probably a different atmosphere in 1962 than it would
have been in ‘66 or ‘68 with Vietnam going on.
Right.
Interviewer: At this point people who were there probably most of them wanted to be
there.
Right, that's correct it was pretty much volunteer.
�Interviewer: Yeah alright so where is Lackland?
Lackland is in San Antonio, Texas.
Interviewer: Okay and how did they get you down there?
We went by train, let's see what did we go by? Train and went, yeah, all the way.
(4:02)
Interviewer: And what do you remember about that train?
My- my first train ride.
Interviewer: Okay.
My dad worked for the C&O Railroad for years and years and I had never been on a train other
than on an engine looking at it, but I’d never been on a train ride and…
Interviewer: Okay.
So, it was my first experience.
Interviewer: Okay how long did it take to get down there?
A couple days at least, I don't remember a whole lot about it, but it took a couple days.
Interviewer: Okay so you get down to Lackland and then what happens once you arrive?
Then they start yelling at you and you go through the routines and you go through getting your
uniforms and getting yelled at again and then going doing a lot of paperwork and a lot of yelling
and finally you get to your- your dormitories and meet your technical drill sergeants and start
going through the procedures.
Interviewer: Okay so what did Air Force basic training consist of when you were there?
(5:06)
It was, I- I look back at it, it was pretty easy. It was eight weeks we had our obstacle course
which I can remember going through the obstacle course and going ahead of my flight and into
�the next flight and when I got through I kind of got my butt chewed for going too fast. I had ran
cross-country in high school and so it was pretty easy jumping over obstacles and going into the
water and I just enjoyed doing it but yeah I was doing it too enthusiastically.
Interviewer: Alright and how much emphasis do they put on discipline and following
orders?
(6:00)
Well that's where they- they break you down, they, you want to become a team member as
opposed to an individual and so it's a daily routine of shining your shoes, shining the floor,
making sure your bed is, can bounce a dime off of it. All of these insignificant things are all part
of a discipline team building and putting you into a- a group of men that are all doing the same
thing for now and that's I think that's what one of the most important things about basic training.
Interviewer: Okay now did you understand that at the time or figure that out later?
Not really you- you wonder, you know I looked back now and I- I understand why and just like
going to college it's a discipline and that's the- that's the key the discipline.
(7:06)
Interviewer: So, for us it's just do the reading, well in your case it’s make the bed, right.
Okay how long did basic training last?
It was eight-week course and it was a lot of in-class study, learning about the flag, learning about
the history of the Air Force, learning how to salute, how to march, it's… going through the gas
chamber, and shooting the M16 and that time we shot the M1 rifle.
Interviewer: Okay.
The M16 hadn't come out yet.
�Interviewer: Yeah, I mean the standard rifle for the army actually in ‘62 was gonna be still
the M14 which is improve… but you had the original World War II vintage M1s?
Right to start with, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay now what was the gas chamber for?
(8:02)
I- I really don't know it again that's probably the discipline cause you would go in there, they
would turn the- the gas on and you would just stand there, it was tear gas and they would wait for
you to beg to get out of there and everybody would be crying and yelling and screaming, and
finally when they- they know when you've had enough and you'd run out of there and you'd be
eyes would be dry, crying, and…
Interviewer: Okay because sometimes when people talk about this in other branches of
service, I mean there's a gas mask they get to put on at some point.
Right.
Interviewer: Did you have that or?
We- we did at the very last minute they get the gas masks put on, but it was still traumatic you
know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
But it was part of that discipline.
Interviewer: Okay now had you already selected what your training was your- your
specific training was going to be, or did they determine that once you were there?
(9:08)
They determined that's one of the classes that you go through and interviews and so on. I- I had
to assume that I was going into electronics because I scored real high in that and so I, at the end
�of basic training they tell you where you're gonna be going and mine was Amarillo, Texas for
automatic pilot school.
Interviewer: Okay and how long would you stay at Amarillo?
I went through Amarillo it was basically a- a twenty-eight-week course.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I got halfway through it and there was a- a glitch in the paperwork somewhere so I ended up
in another class and I finished that up, so I was there probably thirty-two weeks and finally got
through it.
(10:13)
Interviewer: Okay what did the training there consist of?
Again it was, the dormitories, the routine, keeping your dorm clean, spit-shining your shoes,
inspection of your uniforms, but then during class time you would go to school in the morning
and they would teach you elect- basic electronics and then they would go into your primary
automatic pilots and, but it was sort of like basic training with the regimentation going to the KP
in the- in the cafeteria and then we had more free time in base- in technical school on the
weekends as opposed to basic training.
(11:11)
Interviewer: Okay so what were the living conditions like there?
World War II dorms a lot of the- the wall board was unpainted but the- the dorms were spotless
because we kept them that way and no air conditioning but it was you know down in Amarillo,
Texas it- it gets kind of hot and it gets cold and hot and so we had our blankets and so on, but it
was- it was fairly good compared to what I hear of the Army.
�Interviewer: That would depend on where you were with- with the Army but that's you
know did you at least have stoves or heaters of some kind in the barracks?
(12:00)
Yeah it- it had furnaces.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah.
Interviewer: And were you beyond the level of using coal, or were you?
Oh yes.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah it was- it was heated but it was cold.
Interviewer: Yeah and probably not very well insulated or anything else.
Right, right.
Interviewer: Okay and so what were you actually learning to do? They're training you
something with auto pilots?
Yeah you're first learned electronics and then you learned all about airplanes, the wings and the
fuselage, and so on, and then the- the autopilot system the pilot flips a switch and it'll fly by itself
until it gets to a- an airport and then it'll, pilot lands it but it pretty much took care of the airplane
in flight.
Interviewer: So you're learning basically how it works and how to maintain it?
(13:02)
Yeah, changing servos that would put the ailerons and the elevators
in certain positions and at that time we were still using tubes if I can remember it correctly and
solid state had come at a- another time but we learned G limits- monitors that the aircraft would
�fly in a particular attitude and if it went, took too many G's it would flip off the autopilot system
and- and things like that that we would learn.
Interviewer: Okay now did you have, did you work with actual aircraft or just with the
parts?
(13:56)
In the, in Amarillo we just learned the parts and the mach- the equipment we didn't go into the
actual aircraft until we went to our next base.
Interviewer: Okay now at least un- until the last few weeks were you pretty much with the
same group the whole way through?
Yeah you were with a- a class and- and then you were assigned to a dormitory and a squadron, a
flight and we stayed pretty much as a team.
Interviewer: Okay now when you went off the base what did you do?
Down in- down in Amarillo I had a- a chance to go out with my lieutenant, executive officer we
went out to some of the ranches and we would explore Indian Ruins and it was pretty interesting
and I'd never done that before out in the deserts and out in the pastures out there on the ranches,
we'd look for a circle of rocks, an old circle and it would, you’d sift through there and you'd
contain arrowheads, it was pretty interesting.
(15:23)
Interviewer: Okay now was it normal for officers and enlisted to hang out together off
base?
No, no that was forbidden.
Interviewer: Okay.
�I think this relationship there was pretty much professional and it's something that was done, I- I
don't know how we ended up starting it but we both had the interest in arc- archaeology and so
on and so that started that.
(16:00)
Interviewer: Alright now if you think back over the time in Amarillo are there any
particular events or experiences or broader impressions that kind of stay with you?
No, other than I remember the- the, our drill sergeants would say, “you're welcome to go AWOL
in Amarillo if you want, because we could see walking in Amarillo for four days and you'd still
be seen because it's so flat,” and that was a- a big joke that you could go AWOL in…
Interviewer: Okay was there much to do in the town? Was there much of a town there?
Well at the time there was some parks and we went out on, in some, there were some rivers that
we'd go to and just have a little fun at, but it was mostly everything on base.
(17:00)
Interviewer: Did they have bars?
I don't recall because I wasn't old enough.
Interviewer: Okay.
And they do on all- all of our bases we have Airman's Clubs…
Interviewer: Right.
NCO Clubs, and Officers’ Clubs.
Interviewer: Okay so the drinking age there was 21 at that point or?
Yeah, yeah and I wasn't much of a drinker to start with.
Interviewer: Yeah, you’re a good boy from West Michigan.
Yeah.
�Interviewer: So of course not.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah okay alright so you're there… okay so that's like close to eight months I
guess, alright and then where do you go once you finish that course?
Well I got my orders and all of us as a- a team members we don't necessarily travel to the next
base, we all go out as individuals and I think there was probably four of us that went to Luke Air
Force Base in Phoenix, Arizona.
Interviewer: Alright.
And that's where we learned our auto pilot skills.
(18:02)
Interviewer: Okay, working with actual aircraft now?
Actual aircraft, we started with the F-100, that was called the lead sled and they used that
extensively in Vietnam.
Interviewer: Alright now describe that aircraft a little bit.
It was a one of the first what they call a Century Series aircraft, F-100 and had a big nose to for
the intake on the- on the jets and as far as my job I, we would lift up the hood on the- on the
aircraft and our equipment was right inside. And then some of them had two-seater aircraft and
some were single. We would go in, have to lift the canopy up and go in and set in the- in the
canopy or in the cockpit there and play with our instruments with the- the ones that we were in
charge of and that was interesting setting on an ejection seat with the power on and that was
another thing that we learned
about in school, there's a separate class in that so you always want to be careful as to what levers
you're pulling.
�(19:30)
Interviewer: Alright now did you ever get a chance to go up in an F-100?
No I didn’t, no I the- the closest I got that we would run ‘em and the we wouldn't run ‘em but the
crew chief would run it and then we would test our- our system by running the ailerons and the
elevators and the rudders and making sure everything worked correctly, properly.
Interviewer: Alright and how long did you stay at that base?
I was there for about a year and one of the things I remember about Luke Air Force Base is
you're at, near the Mojave Desert and you'd get these sandstorms coming through. You're out on
the- out on the runway and there you can see from the distance sandstorms, so you jump in the
cockpit and you close the cockpit canopy and- and there you set until the sandstorm runs over. Itit's quite a- it was quite an experience.
(20:45)
Interviewer: Okay now how was life on this base different from life while you were
training?
That, completely different, you still had dormitory inspections probably a couple times a month,
and you had roommates, and you had a, we were in a two-man room. We were free to go around
the dorm- around the base, we had first couple months, we had to get permission to go off base
and that was kind of a liberty thing but on base you had the libraries, you had the cafeterias, the
bowling alleys, the Airman's Club, and there's plenty to do on an Air Force Base.
(21:42)
Interviewer: Okay and what kind of aircraft were you working with?
That was the F-100 only on- on the at Luke.
�Interviewer: Okay and was there a particular squadron or a wing that was based there that
you were with or were you…?
Yeah, I wanted… the Air Force is kind of different from the Army and the Marines, we were in
a, I was in an A&E squadron, armament and electronics they call it. I don't recall 314th seems to
be the… but we were just members of that squadron and we worked on the aircraft but when we
left the base, when we rotated to another base we rotated again as individuals. We- the squadron
didn't move from one to another.
(22:37)
Interviewer: So, the squadron was essentially part of sort of the staff of the base.
Part of a base, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah so you're just in- in that ball game there.
Right, right.
Interviewer: Alright now so what year is this then that you’re…?
This would be in 1963.
Interviewer: Okay so at this point it's still pre-Vietnam although actually air assets are
already.
Yes.
Interviewer: Getting over there.
I had volunteered for Vietnam that- that year and I was single so I put in a volunteer statement
and nothing ever happened and- and then the only thing that happened to me was I got engaged
and from Luke Air Force Base I was- I was reassigned to the 33rd Tech Fighter Wing in Fort
Walton Beach, Florida, Eglin Air Force Base. During that time between Luke Air Force Base
and going to Eglin Air Force Base I got married.
�(23:41)
Interviewer: Okay.
So, I withdrew my Vietnam request.
Interviewer: Alright okay now at that point for a while there- there was a rule that- that
said that the married personnel didn't get sent overseas.
Right.
Interviewer: Or then- then later it was if you had children you didn't get sent overseas and
eventually all of those went away but I think some of that depended on when you started,
so you were early enough that…
I was early.
Interviewer: That those rules may just apply to you automatically.
Right.
Interviewer: And then be in place afterward.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay and so when- when did you go to Eglin then?
In April of ’65.
Interviewer: Okay.
We had just started a new wing that, it was an old wing brought up from World War II but 33rd
Tac Fighter Wing was the F-4c Phantom jet and that was the newest thing introduced to the Air
Force, it was brought over from the Navy. The Navy had had the F-4s and we adapted them for
the Air Force and that became, that replaced the F-100 in Vietnam and became the- the go-to
aircraft.
(25:02)
�Interviewer: Okay and so for people who don't know a lot about that kind of thing what
separates the F-4 from the F-100?
All, the F-4 was all integrated systems, transistors, and diodes, and all you- you take a box out of
the aircraft and you put in another box. Whereas in the F-100 we would take the box out of the
aircraft, go back to the shop, fix it, put it back in the aircraft. These were all, the F-4 was all
modular everything was state-of-the-art.
Interviewer: Okay and then in terms just what the aircraft could do what's the difference?
The aircraft was much faster, more maneuverable, the F-100 like they called it the Lead Sled it
had- it had some good bombing capabilities but the F-100 was able to carry more of a payload
and was much faster than new F-4.
(26:15)
Interviewer: The F-4 was- was much faster.
F-4 yeah.
Interviewer: Okay alright and as far as you were concerned as a mechanic did working on
the F-4 make the job easier? Harder? Or was there new challenges?
It was- it was much easier again it was a brand new- brand new wing and so ever, we were, we
even had to build our- our shops and everything was right from scratch. We were issued tools,
new tools and the maintenance, it was we probably worked for three or four days a week because
it was a brand new, we didn't even have all of our airplanes in. So, we were that new building up
the- the wing but working on the aircraft itself was, we learned, had to learn all about it. We went
to school because it was a brand new- brand new thing to us.
(27:29)
Interviewer: Alright and then so you had gotten engaged. So, when did you get married?
�Got married just before getting to Eglin Air Force Base.
Interviewer: Okay now at that point could you and your wife live off-base or out of
what…?
What we did is we lived, had our honeymoon right there at Eglin Air Force Base and then she
went back home.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I stayed there and- and learned the job. We didn't plan on living together until I got out of
the Air Force in a- a year from then.
Interviewer: Okay.
And at- in ‘66 when I got, before I got out, I had a choice of going with the- the wing to Oslo,
Norway for a fire power demonstration or getting out and I decided to get out of the service.
(28:31)
Interviewer: Okay.
And from that point, from Oslo then the wing went to, not the wing but the squad went to
Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay.
So, I would have gone to Vietnam had I not gotten out of the Air Force.
Interviewer: Okay so at this point the Air Force for you that was just kind of one stage in
your life and now you were moving on.
Right.
Interviewer: Okay and so you go back to Grand Rapids so what year is that now that ‘66?
That was in ’66.
�Interviewer: Okay and once you got back to Grand Rapids what did you do?
I had the GI Bill so I was able to, I went down to Grand Rapids Junior College and then I went
over to Kendall School of Design for a semester and during all that time I was raising our first
child and going to work for Lear Siegler.
Interviewer: Okay.
(29:28)
And we're working seven days a week, 10 hours a day doing almost the same job for Lear that I
was doing in the Air Force but with Lear I was testing the equipment as opposed to actually
using it.
Interviewer: Okay and so how long does that last?
About a year, let's see I got a little over a year and March of ‘68 I got itchy feet and I wanted to
go back into the Air Force.
Interviewer: Okay.
And so, I had to get into the Air Force before my second child was born because they had the
restriction you couldn't go in with more than two children or more than one child. So I went in in
March of ‘68 I went back into the Air Force.
Interviewer: Alright now that the climate in the country has changed quite a bit in- in that
time but then you get into early ‘68 you know the Tet Offensive is- is started, and anti-war
movement is ramping up, and you have a lot of stuff kind of going on. You also have a lot
of people who are trying to avoid the draft or at least stay out of the Army or the Marines
by trying to join the Air Force or- or the Navy. Now do you have a special status because
you were, you had prior service and training?
�(30:53)
No other than I was prior service so I was able to- to keep my rank of I- I believe I was E-3
Airman First Class and so I went back in but I couldn't get into autopilot systems, and I could get
into electronics and I went into what they call inertial navigation systems, Doppler radar.
Interviewer: Okay.
And so, I had to go back to school at Keesler Air Force Base in Mississippi.
Interviewer: Now when you went down there did your wife stay in Grand Rapids or did
she come down?
She traveled with me there.
Interviewer: Okay.
And we gotta, had a trailer to start with and I can remember moving into the trailer, into this park
and we were right on a bayou and we had talked about the storms coming through, the
hurricanes, and so on. And I asked the landlord, “when was the last hurricane or the highest
water?” And he pointed up on a tree the water level and it was above all the trailers there. He
said, “that's been a while,” and so we were there like I said on the bayou and we, my daughter
walked out to the dock I can remember and there was a water snake that went right in front of her
and my wife saw that and by the next day she had packed up and went back to Michigan.
(32:36)
Interviewer: Okay.
So, I was there for a while for two or three months on my own and till I finally got a house and
we brought her back down.
Interviewer: Alright now how long were you at Keesler?
Keesler was from March of ‘68 till about to about ’70. It was, I got orders for Korea.
�Interviewer: Okay and the mean time so but was all that schooling or were you now
working on the base?
I- I was going to school for about six months and because I had prior electronics experience I
self-generated through the school and finished early and then I was selected as an instructor for
electronics and so I became an instructor there for probably a year and during that year we had
Hurricane Camille. And I can remember if you lived off base and they had a hurricane you had a
choice of going onto base because of the security and- and storm shelters and so on, or you could
stay off- off base. We elected to stay off base in our house and we were far enough off the beach
that we weren't gonna get flooded but I can remember looking out the window while Hurricane
Camille was coming through and the eye of the storm passed just to, in Gulfport just down from
us. And I could look out the window and saw all the trees going one way and then an hour or so
you could see the trees going the other way. And in the morning when we woke up, I had all- all
of us in the middle of the house, in the morning when I woke up the nails in the woodwork were
all out about a quarter of an inch from the house going back and forth and…
(34:57)
Interviewer: Now did you lose your windows or did they?
Nothing was damaged.
Interviewer: Okay.
We had limbs and so on around but I got out and I drove down to the beach and on the highway
was an ocean-going vessel sitting there and you could look down on the beach and there would
be dead cows because far out on an island there was a dairy farm and all those cows got
washed…
Interviewer: Wow.
�On to the beach. And there was, the water side of the highway was just leveled, the motels, the
bars completely leveled.
Interviewer: Okay now was this Biloxi, Mississippi?
This is in Biloxi, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay alright now when something like that happens the Military often gets
involved in clean up and support and other things like that so…
(35:53)
Right we had gotten out, the Air Force Base all the guys from the Air Force Base were assigned
to different groups and we would go out and police up the area and help in any way we could.
And probably the Air Force Base anywhere in the world, Army, Air Force, Marines there'sthey're there to help the communities and they certainly helped Biloxi.
Interviewer: Alright now are- are there other things that kind of stand out in your memory
from that time aside from the hurricane?
That, I would say pretty much no, we raised wire-haired terrier, but Biloxi was pretty much
getting family- family organized.
Interviewer: Right.
The kids were young, we were learning all about Military life, family life, and- and so on
meeting new friends.
(37:10)
Interviewer: Okay so did you just sort of socialize with other people who also had young
kids and things like that? Was there some kind of network there?
There was a camaraderie of that, we learned that when I was in Florida, we got together with
young couples because we had one child and there's, we had neighbors across the street from us
�that kind of took us in, they were older, and took us in and showed us the ropes. But meet a lot of
new friends, I wish we had Facebook back then so I could keep track of them all but, yeah.
Interviewer: Alright now you're also in- in the South in the 1960’s and you'd come down
from Grand Rapids I mean and you had a civil rights movement going and there had been
segregation and things like that, I mean to what extent were you aware of any of that kind
of stuff?
(38:11)
Such naive kids, my wife and I who, we had no idea that there was things like that going on. We
grew up at Grand Rapids in a- a pretty much all white school, we had two or three black students
in our class and didn't think anything of it. And we went down there and we saw these old shacks
along the road and we didn't see any of the white and black it was pretty much a community that
we didn't see any of that racism and so we didn't understand that that was really going on so we
were pretty much naïve kids.
(39:04)
Interviewer: Alright okay, alright now the orders for Korea, was that a surprise or were
you expecting something?
Pretty much like I said in- in, we all go into our individual place- areas and- and there was five of
us out of the school, out of the instructor school that got orders. Three of us went to Korea and
two of ‘em went to Vietnam, so I could have gone to Vietnam very easily, but my assignment
was Osan Air Base, Korea.
Interviewer: Okay alright and how did they get you out to Korea?
(39:52)
�Flew, we went from Washington, Fort Lewis Washington, Tacoma to Korea that was quite a
long- long ride you'd fly it into Alaska and then from Alaska to Korea.
Interviewer: Okay and where is Osan in Korea?
It's below the 38th parallel it's in probably the middle of South Korea, it's kind of a, there's
several air bases around there but Suwan and- and Osan were pretty close together.
Interviewer: Okay alright and now your job is essentially what you had…
My- my job is a little different this time like I said in- in Mississippi I was
working on Doppler radar, inertial navigation systems. We had I believe it was three or four CT
29s and they were used strictly to monitor the DMZ zone, so when they flew we didn't work, we
worked when they were- when they landed and if there was anything wrong we would go fix thethe Doppler radar.
(41:26)
Interviewer: Okay.
But if there's nothing wrong we didn't work and so we spent a lot of downtime in Korea not
working and…
Interviewer: Alright now the aircraft itself was- was that propeller-driven or a jet?
Yep, it was propeller- driven it was a C-47.
Interviewer: Okay.
I believe C… CT 29s, it was a above the C-1, C-23s. This was a four-engine turboprop and
camouflage paint and strictly used for recon on the DMZ.
Interviewer: Okay so it had radar systems, so basically it would fly over and try to monitor
any kind of activity there?
Had- had cameras, big cameras and it’d take pictures of the DMZ.
�(42:24)
Interviewer: Alright now at that point in- in time I mean was there much tension there
along the border? Where their incidents are things that happened in that period?
Daily, they would rake the beach every day and you would walk down the street and every
intersection had a anti- aircraft in- encampment there. They took it very serious, you didn't,
Koreans themselves wouldn't- wouldn't walk down the street without carrying an ID card. The
ID card was their freedom and that they took the North and South very serious.
Interviewer: So, they were always concerned about infiltrators or anything else like that.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Now you said, “rake the beach,” where you near…
Yeah near the… I think it's a Yellow Sea, China's…
Interviewer: Was it on the western side, south of Seoul? Or where you on the other side?
No we were south of Seoul.
(43:34)
Interviewer: Yeah.
But when, on the beach they would rake it so they could tell whether somebody landed or swam
or however and they could tell whether somebody was on the beach infiltrated, so.
Interviewer: Alright and now did you have Korean military personnel working with you at
all?
No, we had, this was all Air Force.
Interviewer: Okay.
Back at Luke Air Force Base we had civilians that would work with us, but this was all Air
Force.
�Interviewer: Okay but you still had contact with at least the civilian population that area…
Oh yeah, oh yeah we have papasan for our dormitories and we would have, we'd go off base and
fraternize with the locals. Our big thing was going to the orphanage, most every weekend we'd
take a Air Force vehicle and go to the orphanage and they would treat us like kings. We would
play with the kids and then they would put on a little skit for us and they would put a display of
fruit and vegetables and we'd eat, just it was very touching the orphanage.
(45:05)
Interviewer: Okay now did you bring things to them or give them support of one kind or
another?
I don't think we brought anything to them, there was, it- it was more just going there and playing
with them, watching them, them having somebody. Koreans love to have a conversation with an
American, they- they like that English, learning English conversation that was one big thing that
stood out with me.
Interviewer: Okay and did some of the single guys have Korean girlfriends and things like
that?
(45:46)
Yeah that was- that was part of a lot of- a lot of the Orientals that you see in the States nowadays
were from the Korean and Vietnamese and so on. It would be a thing, young ladies were kicked
out of their families at a young age 13, 14, 15. They had no use, these are stories that I've been
told and that I've seen, the- the boys in the family could produce, they would farm and so on but
the girls were not too much use. So they were sent off to the city, big city and Mamasan would
take ‘em in because they had no place to go, so Mamasan would have them work in their club,
tend bar, waitress, and buy ‘em clothes, feed ‘em, give ‘em a place to stay and before you know
�it the young lady is there for a year or two and she owes Mamasan several thousand dollars
because interest rate is so high and she could never pay it off. So, she's indebted, Mamasan takes
her ID card and she can't go out onto the streets and so she's pretty much an indentured slave
right there. So, a GI comes along and meets her in the bar and they start seeing each other and
before you know it, he pays off Mamasan and buys her salvation and then they move into a- a
little hooch themselves and end up getting married.
(48:00)
Interviewer: Or not probably.
Transferred to the… what’s that?
Interviewer: Probably some of them don't get married.
Oh yeah, yeah but the ones that get married are transferred to the States.
Interviewer: Right.
And it's a whole- a whole new story.
Interviewer: Sure, okay and I guess I mean of course some of them would, they would wind
up, they’re working for Mamasan they wind up in prostitution in some cases.
Oh yes.
Interviewer: Now where there also drug problems at that time?
I didn't see- I didn't, the only thing I can remember is a few of the guys would smoke marijuana,
but as far as drugs no.
Interviewer: So, heroin hasn't gotten there or anything like that?
No, no it was- it was pretty clean there was the venereal disease and so on but then AIDS wasn't
there yet.
Interviewer: Right.
�(48:54)
And but it was pretty utopia, you'd go to the, you go down to the village and you'd go to the bars,
you'd drink, have fun, go back to the dormitories, you have to be off the streets by 10 o'clock at
night. And if you weren't off the streets then you would end up in a- a hooch with a girl and that
would be your life saving until the morning when you could get back out onto the streets.
Interviewer: Right, now did you learn to eat Korean food?
Loved it, I was 185 pounds when I went to Korea and when I left, I was a hundred and forty-five.
I ate everything, I'd go out to the farmers, out to the farmland and they would be welcome you in
and you'd sit around the table and they have about ten different items, they just ate tremendously
but it was dried fish, kimchi, which was very hot and everything was irrigated with human feces
and so you have to clean it real well and I would have all kinds of diarrhea and parasites and you
name it that but I- I went out and I enjoyed it.
(50:29)
Interviewer: Okay now did you develop any resistance to that stuff after a while or?
Evidently I could go down to the village and you'd go through the market and there would be
squid, dried squid hanging, you’d pull the tentacle off and you'd eat it like rawhide, you know
like jerky. And you'd go in, I- I'd eat the octopus, I’d eat it all. I pay for it.
Interviewer: And you’re still alive.
And I'd still pay for it, yeah.
Interviewer: Alright now I take it your, while you were in Korea your family was still back
in the States.
Right that was an unaccompanied tour.
Interviewer: Alright so how long total did you spend in Korea?
�13 months.
Interviewer: Okay.
I did come home for Christmas and saw my grand- my son for first time he was talking. Boy that
really tore me up.
Interviewer: Now- now when- when you got back, I mean did he know who you were?
(51:31)
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: Good because he wasn't afraid of you?
Yeah, we kept in touch you know through telephone and letters and so on.
Interviewer: Okay now when you called home could you just use a regular phone line for
that or?
Yeah.
Interviewer: Was there…
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay so it wasn't like in Vietnam where you had to have a ham radio operator
in the middle or whatever.
Right, right.
Interviewer: Okay now I'm looking at your sequence, I thought one of the things that you
did before Korea was you spent some time as an Air Force recruiter?
Yeah that was your right we went from, well we went from…
Interviewer: Eglin?
Mississ- from Eglin to… how did we go?
�Interviewer: Or was it, or did you go from Mississippi to Grand Rapids?
Went from Mississippi to Korea.
Interviewer: Okay.
And then from Korea to Grand Rapids as an Air Force recruiter.
Interviewer: Okay and was that your first stint as a recruiter?
Yes, it was.
Interviewer: Okay so before we get there, other things that stand out in your memory from
time in Korea?
(52:36)
Pretty much the orphanages, the, I did fly on the CT 29 and we were able to fly along the DMZ
and the pilot and navigator and told us what he was doing and showed us everything. That was a
very interesting, but the life in Korea was pretty much on base, working, we went we- we met
some college students from Korea, and they were just interested in talking, they want- they want
in the most way to learn conversational English.
Interviewer: Right.
And so, we did that and…
Interviewer: Did you go into any of the larger cities like Seoul or any place?
(53:31)
Oh I was in Seoul with the friend of mine we- we walked, we were walking down the street in
Seoul and just enjoying, looking at different sites and so on and all of a sudden we went into this
teahouse and the lady told us, “you know you’re not supposed to be in this area,” and it was in a
trucking area, and I guess it was off-limits to either United States, U.S. people or it was off-limits
�to military and so we scurried out of there real quick, had no idea, we just walked, enjoined, and
so that was our tour in Seoul and then we, you go back and forth on a bus, a military bus.
(54:33)
Interviewer: Okay now were there ever actual- any actual incidents involving you know
North Koreans or people trying to get on your base or anything else like that?
No, it was pretty much peacetime, nothing to write home about.
Interviewer: Okay alright so you have, you finished Korea now you get to go back to
Grand Rapids and now you're working as an Air Force recruiter and now this is like early
1970s here, okay so describe what- what was that like?
Being an Air Force recruiter was one of the proudest moments, proudest times in my career. I
was, went to Lackland Air Force Base for recruiting school and then I came home, and I was
assigned to Allegan County, South Kent County, I had several about 20 schools that I would go
to each, I would make my rounds of all the schools. And the- the big thing that stands out is
some of the teachers and counselors that I had met complemented me on the fact that I would go
to the school and present myself and ask to see so-and-so student to recruit and unlike the other
Military services they would come in and they would demand this, and demand that, and I want
to see this person and that person, but mine was a low-keyed approach and I made a lot of friends
with the counselors, friends that I have today I even bowl with one that I talked- talked to about
going into the service and he ended up joining the Navy as an officer. So, these are the types of
friendships and- and things that I did as an Air Force recruiter.
(56:46)
Interviewer: Okay now did you encounter any kind of anti-war sentiment or would there
be people in some of these places who were hostile to you because you were recruiting?
�No, I- I always and this was in the- the height of Vietnam, I was always proud to walk around
with my uniform and I had never been harassed except one time I went into South Christian High
School and there was a very liberal female teacher that said something about it and her other
teacher they said, “just ignore her, she- she doesn't know what she's talking about.” But that was
the only thing that stood out because I had- I had never been harassed, never been spit on.
Interviewer: Well this was not exactly a hotbed of radicalism.
Right.
Interviewer: Especially outside of the City of Grand Rapids itself probably.
Right.
Interviewer: You would not encounter a lot of that too much, alright now what kinds of
things motivated people to join the Air Force at that point?
(57:49)
Jobs and schooling, the when I was there that my first tour, women were being accepted into the
Military to do non- non female roles. I had put in the first jet engine aircraft mechanic that was a
female. Beautiful little girl from Wyoming- Wyoming High School and she- she was a model, I
mean she was just gorgeous and I says, “you want to go in a jet engine?” “Yeah I want to do
something that is, that women don't do,” so she did go into the Air Force and she did go in to jet
engine mechanics and after about three years she says, “I'm tired of being one of the guys and
getting grease under my fingers,” and so the Air Force offered her any job, she was qualified for
everything she- she scored high and she decided that no I'm gonna get out. And so, they offered
you know one or the other, she decided to get out and to this day she had, I still see her from time
to time and she says, “I wished I had stayed in.” And that's the- the type of person I think that I
was putting in the Air Force I have a- a log scrapbook then when they come back on leave and I
�encourage them to stop in and see me. I have ‘em sign-in and take a picture and see how they're
doing. Several of my recruits have retired from the Air Force and the ones that stayed in for four
they said, “it was great time, I enjoyed it, I learned a lot but I'm not gonna do it again,” you
know.
(1:00:06)
Interviewer: Yeah at this point did you have some people who were doing this to stay away
from the draft?
Yes but most of them were I would say most of them I recruited myself. They- they didn't
necessarily come into my office to get out of the draft.
Interviewer: Okay.
But yes, some of them were motivated to- to do that but most of them were coming in to look for
a job.
Interviewer: Alright now how many people would you get in a month or did you have
quotas or?
I had quotas, we would have maybe four or five men a month and then they started putting
quotas on us for the females and I did very well, and I think I won an award for recruiter of the
month for female. They also had prior service quotas and a lot of the prior servicemen that I put
in I still see today and communicate with them today. The quotas were met without any problem,
the Army, Navy, they would always, we were in the same offices all together and would always
see if they had any- anybody that I could give ‘em and we did, a lot of the kids that didn't qualify
for us we'd send ‘em over to the Navy, and the Army, and the Marines.
(1:01:47)
�Interviewer: Yeah, I guess how tough were the rules or the expectations?
Our- our expect- expectations on qualifying mentally were strict. We would require on a Air
Force qualifying test a score of at least I believe it was 31, I'm not exactly sure but the Army and
the Marines could go down a- a couple points and so we’d send ‘em over. Physically if they
didn't pass our physical, they pretty much couldn't pass the physical for the other services either.
Interviewer: Yeah right did you have people who didn't pass the physical who’d go away,
get in better shape, and come back?
(1:02:36)
Yeah had a young lady that had to lose her weight and she lost it and she's retired, stayed in. I
just communicated with her a- a few weeks ago on Facebook and…
Interviewer: Okay now how long did that first stint in Grand Rapids last?
Four years.
Interviewer: Okay.
It was a four-year tour at the end of it I was the tester, I would travel around West Michigan up
to Traverse City and give the ASVAB Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery.
Interviewer: Right.
To schools, to the Air Force offices, to give the tests to the students.
Interviewer: Okay now do you, did they, did the Air Force just rotate you out of that
assignment or did you ask for something different?
(1:03:28)
No, it was a normal rotation and from there I was assigned to Arkansas.
Interviewer: Okay.
Little Rock, Arkansas.
�Interviewer: Alright and what were you gonna do there?
I was working on C-130s in my inertial navigation Doppler radar.
Interviewer: Okay.
And it was like a duck out of water going from recruiting back into the maintenance and that
time they went from transistors to solid-state, they hadn't gotten into what they have today yet
but.
Interviewer: So, it wasn't computerized yet?
It- it was, we were always computerized we had kind of like an analog computer as opposed to
the digital age. Looking back at- looking back at Little Rock was, it- it still old-school electronics
but the C-130 aircraft is- is still going today and it was a workhorse in Vietnam and that's whatthat's what we use.
(1:05:00)
Interviewer: Yeah so that's the big cargo plane.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay now where some of the C-130s fitted with extra equipment because a C130 can do different things.
It can, we used it strictly for cargo.
Interviewer: Okay alright and now did you have to learn new technology or upgrades from
what you had worked with before?
Pretty much I just learned it through this squad, through the shop. I was assigned to work with a
few guys, and we learned C-130, we had a- a classroom set up for a couple weeks.
Interviewer: Now what rank were you at this point?
I was a staff sergeant, E-5.
�Interviewer: Okay so when you come in and you join this particular group you have some
seniority or…
Yeah, I was in charge, I had two or three people under me that would work.
(1:06:02)
Interviewer: Okay now did your family move with you to Little Rock?
The family was with me, took the dogs and kids and jumped in a, I think we took a U-Haul to
Little Rock and got a house. We lived on base so that was kind of nice.
Interviewer: Now was there a school on the base or did the kids go off base?
Yeah, on- on base housing and they had the school right on the base and some of the high school
kids would go off base but there was a- an elementary school on base.
Interviewer: Alright and how long were you there?
(1:06:50)
A year, about a year and a half and one of the things that I- I forgot about was I was a bowler and
I started, I've always been a bowler all my life but in 1972 when I was a recruiter I started getting
active in bowling and I was a- a junior bowling coach, my daughter was one of my students, one
of my bowlers and I became active in the Association, the Bowling Association and became a
director of the Grand Rapids Bowling Association. So, when I went to Arkansas, I was a junior
bowling coach there because all of our Air Force bases have bowling centers and entertainment
like that. As a matter of fact, a bowling center on an Air Force Base is the community center that
everybody goes to to have coffee, to eat, to socialize, and so on. And so, in Arkansas I was a
junior bowling coach and then became a member of the, their association board and this is where
I met a lot of people that I would be eventually stationed with in another base.
(1:08:34)
�Interviewer: Okay.
And so, in Arkansas we went out to the Diamond Mines in- in Arkansas, one of our things to do,
activities. And I did a- a lot of metal detecting out there besides our, we in the Air Force you
work about eight hours a day and you have Saturdays and Sundays off unless there's activities.
So that's how I sold the Air Force too as a recruiter, was it was like a job, full-time job that you're
on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but you only work just like at normal, normal job.
Interviewer: Okay now what brought the Arkansas assignment to an end?
(1:09:35)
From there we went to, I went to Omaha, Nebraska for a school to learn- to learn the KC-135
and we were on our way to Okinawa and so I- I learned the KC-135 that's a big Air Force tanker
and that's what I was gonna be working on in Okinawa.
Interviewer: Okay so when do you get to Okinawa?
That I went there in ‘77 and from ‘77 to ’80.
Interviewer: Okay.
And there I had my family and we were able to bring our dog and flew over with the family on a
big 747. That took quite a while.
(1:10:37)
Interviewer: Yeah.
I remember the kids laid out the 77…7…
Interviewer: 747, yeah.
…47 was empty in the back so we were able to put all the armrests out and we would sleep on
the eight seats across and that was quite a - quite an experience.
Interviewer: Okay so what base were you at in Okinawa?
�We were at Kadena Air Base and overseas they call them Air Bases as opposed to Air Force
Base.
Interviewer: Right.
In the United States and we went to- got to Kadena and we had a little house off base and met
helicopter pilot as our neighbor and became real good friends with them. And did a lot of
hanging out, again he was an officer and I was an enlisted man but that, the fraternization there
was we were neighbors, you know. And so eventually we moved on base to a brand-new house
on- on a hill and it was pretty neat, everything is made of concrete because of the sy- the
typhoons.
(1:11:59)
Interviewer: Right.
And spent three and a half years on Okinawa and kids went to American school there and we
worked KC-135s.
Interviewer: Okay so what were you doing in your regular job then?
We'd go out and we'd work on the- on the airplanes. The pilots would fly ‘em and if there was
any- anything wrong with ‘em they’d write it up and we'd go out and take care of the write-ups,
go back to the shop.
Interviewer: Were you still working mostly with radar systems or?
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
I'd be working with Doppler radar and…
Interviewer: And was this basically the same that you'd had on the C-130s in Arkansas?
Yes, pretty- pretty much the same.
�(1:12:55)
Interviewer: Alright and your, what was the relationship between the Americans and theand the locals in Okinawa?
Very, very good the only trouble we ever had was a- a few of the people would be against the B52s coming into land because they were nuclear capable.
Interviewer: Right.
And we had the SR-71 and there was a- a few protesters but other than that Okinawa was a small
island, about fifteen miles long and about two miles wide and we were there for three and a half
years you know just enjoying it. It was like subtropical, not as tropical as Hawaii, but this is
where all the mainland Japanese would come and honeymoon and- and visit, it was just a
wonderful place.
(1:13:59)
Interviewer: Okay alright so and of course this is all, now this is all post-Vietnam, so you
don't have anything… Cold War tensions are not really high at this point.
No Iran was one of the…
Interviewer: Yeah.
One of the problems there. Matter of fact one of our- one of our squadrons was lost in- in the
Iran when they went to rescue the hostages and all of a sudden I was involved in bowling again
and I was the island secretary treasurer of the Okinawa Bowling Association so we had an
intramural squad, a- a bowling league and one day one of the sq- one of the teams was gone and
that was the team that went to Iran to rescue the hostages and it was all top secret, we didn't
know a lot of it but you know the word gets around.
(1:15:13)
�Interviewer: Because I guess what there was that that was a sort of a failed attempt to get
in there and rescue, I think it was a heli- collision of helicopters I think, so it was a
helicopter unit or whatever that you lost.
Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And so that was the- the era of when we were there.
Interviewer: Right and how old were you, were your kids by the time you left?
Let's see in ’77, ‘80 my daughter was fourteen and my son was twelve.
Interviewer: Okay.
And from there we went to recruiting duty.
Interviewer: Okay and was that back in Grand Rapids again?
(1:15:58)
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Yeah, but back in Okinawa against, my it seems like my career had a dual career with the Air
Force and bowling. On Okinawa I was the island secretary treasurer.
Interviewer: Right.
Like I had said, before but we had seven bowling centers in Okinawa, on the Marine base and
Army base and once a year I had to have to go to all of those bases and inspect the pins, the
lanes, the, that's what I did and so everything was geared around bowling. My commander and
myself, and my wife, and- and his wife, we vacationed together, we bowled together on four
different leagues, and my commander was a- a major and still are friends today. He got called on
the carpet a few times for fraternizing but it's something that we did.
�(1:17:04)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Our- our kids and their kids vacationed together on the- at the recreate- the recreation site on
Okinawa and that’s what we did.
Interviewer: Yeah, alright well I’ve always had the impression that- that the Air Force was
at least a little more casual about that than the other branches.
Yes.
Interviewer: But they’re, they still frown on it though.
Right, right it was kind of an unwritten rule, but you know as- as long as you don't get involved
with the- the military operation and insubordination and so on.
Interviewer: Right, okay now you had talked earlier about helping recruit women into
some of these different occupations so when you were in Arkansas or Okinawa were there
women in any of your teams at this point?
(1:17:57)
Oh yeah, yeah I was in charge of young lady that was in Doppler radar with me and severalseveral women were out there on the flight line pulling aircraft equipment around, and being a jet
engine mechanic, and being an aircraft mechanic, being a cop that's one thing that women
weren't allowed to do at one time, and I put several of them in as security policemen.
Interviewer: Alright now were you aware of any issues of harassment or other kinds of
problems because they were women? Or was that not on your radar?
No, again it was kind of a unique thing, new thing and I would imagine I didn't hear anything,
you always do know that some of the old-timer’s, “women aren't allowed in here” and so on but
it was never out in the open.
�Interviewer: Okay.
(1:19:04)
If somebody didn't like it, they kept it to themselves.
Interviewer: Or if it was happening it wasn't getting reported to you.
Correct.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Right.
Interviewer: Okay alright so now you're going back, now would the Grand Rapids
recruiting assignment would be the last- would that be the last thing you did or?
That's the last thing I did and unfortunately, I couldn't get into Grand Rapids I was assigned to
Kalamazoo.
Interviewer: Okay.
So for a year I was in Kalamazoo and kept fighting my way to get back to the Grand Rapids
office but I would travel from Grand Rapids to Kalamazoo every day and because I had a house
that we bought when I was a recruiter the first time and we just rented that out while I was gone.
Interviewer: Right, okay now so you do this for about four years?
Four year.
Interviewer: In Michigan again, okay and now what leads you to retire out of the Air
Force?
(1:20:01)
Well my kids were in high school and I had an option of going somewhere else I didn't know
where, but going somewhere else or retiring and I thought as long as the kids now were in high
�school they had had friends before when we were there in- in ‘72 and so I wanted to keep
stability there.
Interview: Right.
They were- they were good in every school that they went to in the Military, they adapted well
but I thought it was time that we just settle down.
Interviewer: Okay and then did you find a job, a civilian job then?
I changed my uniform on Friday and put on my suit on Monday and sold real estate.
Interviewer: Okay.
And this is where I met Bill Schraeder and my…
Interviewer: So what- what led you into- into real estate?
Bill Schraeder, I was in the- in the office and recruiting office and Bill being the Military guy
that he is he would come into the office and he would talk to me, “I'm in real estate now, you
want to get into it.” So, him and I got into, I got into real estate with him in another office and we
became friends from that point on.
Interviewer: Alright so I guess when- when you look back now over your service career
what do you think you took out of that or how did that help to shape you?
(1:21:39)
It definitely made a man out of me like they all say going into Military, make a man outta you.
The- the probably the biggest influencer and so on is bowling. I bowled a lot in the Air Force as I
had explained and after I sold real estate, I bought a bowling center, I went, I graduated from
Davenport college the same year I retired from the Air Force.
Interviewer: Okay.
�And the Air Force paid three quarters of my tuition all the way through twenty years and I finally
retired or finally…
Interviewer: Graduated.
Graduated from Davenport College and I did a- a business plan on a bowling center and not
knowing I was gonna buy one six years later when I retired, I sold real estate and then I went in
1990 bought a bowling center. And one that I grew up in and…
(1:22:48)
Interviewer: So, which- which one is that?
Paragon Bowling Center in Burton Heights.
Interviewer: Okay is that still up and running?
It's still up and running, I've remodeled it from the early retro 1945 era to present and I had it for
sixteen years, sold it in 2006 and now I just drive Uber, work for the Christmas light show, and
metal detect, I'm a ring finder.
Interviewer: Very good. Alright well the whole thing makes for pretty good story and
definitely a distinctive one so thank you very much for coming in and sharing.
I appreciate it.
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e9920bdcd91f789c2e0bf7264933e8c7.mp4
a5fdbe7f2dd43ba56543a8220446cc78
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
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The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
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LarabelG2325V
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Larabel, Gregg (Interview transcript and video), 2019
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Larabel, Gregg
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Description
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Gregg Larabel was born on November 2, 1944 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. After he graduated high school, Larabel joined the Air Force on October 10, 1962 due to his interest in electronics. He attended basic training in San Antonio, Texas, and was then transferred to Amarillo, Texas for a thirty-two-week Pilot School where he was taught basic electronics and flight technology. After graduating Pilot School, Larabel was transferred to Luke Air Force Base in Phoenix, Arizona, where he was assigned to the 314th Armament and Electronics Squadron and worked on military aircraft, particularly the F-100 Super Sabre. After his training at Luke Air Force Base, Larabel was reassigned to the 33rd Tech. Fighter Wing at Eglin Air Force Base in Fort Walton Beach, Florida, where he attended more schooling to help work on the more technologically advanced and easier to maintain F-4 Phantom II. In 1966, Larabel left the Air Force and returned to Grand Rapids where he married, had a child, attended Grand Rapids Junior College and then Kendall College of Art and Design before going to work for the Lear Siegler Corporation testing automotive equipment. Two years later, he went back into the service, attending schooling and working at Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. When Hurricane Camille struck Biloxi, he and his Squadron were tasked with providing relief to the devastated local population. Larabel was later transferred to Osan Air Force Base in South Korea where he worked as a mechanic on aircraft which monitored the DMZ. Back in the United States, Larabel worked as an Air Force Recruiter for schools across Kent County, Michigan, then was rotated to Little Rock, Arkansas, where he began work as a radar mechanic on AC-130 cargo planes at the rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. In Little Rock, Larabel also became the Junior Bowling Coach for the on-base Bowling Association. He was then sent to Omaha, Nebraska, for a course on the KC-135 Stratotanker before being deployed to Kadena Air Base in Okinawa from 1977 to 1980. Before retirement, Larabel transferred back to recruiting in Michigan and later went to work selling real estate and purchased a bowling center in 1990. Reflecting upon his service in the Air Force, Larabel believed it made a man out of him and joked how bowling continued to capture his attention and influence his side careers while in the service.
Date
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2019-08
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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In Copyright
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a67bf7b5d4ae83e9bd62cb4c314e3282.pdf
fabd1e1e78ec54cc5378800eb20b79f4
PDF Text
Text
�������������������������������������
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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Garland, Dudley Hoare (Interview transcript), 1945
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Garland, Dudley Hoare
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Garland, George (transcriber)
Description
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Dudley Hoare Garland served as an artillery officer in the Ninth Infantry Division during World War II. Assigned to Battery A, 26th Field Artillery Regiment, which normally supported the 39th Infantry Regiment, Garland eventually became its commanding officer, and then moved to the staff of the divisional artillery when promoted to the rank of Major. Garland landed with his unit in North Africa and served in North Africa, Sicily, France, Belgium and Germany. He was assigned to return to the US in March, 1945, and while there, he visited the office of his brother George in New York City, and recorded some of his experiences on his brother’s office Dictaphone. The original recording was not preserved, but George’s daughter, Kent Garland McKay, had the transcript, which she has shared with us for posting to this archive. This file also includes information given to Garland by his former commanding officer, Lt. Col. Lewis Lockett, when Garland visited him in a hospital in 1943. The transcript covers a variety of topics, including having his ship sunk off the coast of Algeria, fighting in Tunisia, Sicily, Normandy, Belgium and Germany, relationships with other officers and civilians, meetings with high ranking generals and political figures, and different aspects of daily life in the countries where he was stationed.
Date
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1945-03-12
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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GarlandD
Format
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application/pdf
Type
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Text
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ed50a32eada3a6bb9f2631522ca0dd8f.pdf
de73a45ac4a20f4e703d78c93feca3c7
PDF Text
Text
Living with PFAS
Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto
Interviewee: Wendy Thomas
Date of Interview: 2023-03-01
Danielle DeVasto: Okay. I'm Dani DeVasto, and today March 1, 2023. I have the pleasure of chatting
with Wendy Thomas. Hi Wendy.
Wendy Thomas: Hi, how are you?
Danielle DeVasto: I'm doing well. How are you?
Wendy Thomas: Oh, I'm hanging in there. Thanks. Hanging in.
Danielle DeVasto: Wendy, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live?
Wendy Thomas: Sure. Um, well, I grew up in, uh, Fairfield, Connecticut, and then I moved to New
Hampshire in 1980, and we, I currently live in Merrimack, New Hampshire, and we've lived here for 32
years, my husband and six children, adult children.
Danielle DeVasto: I have a sister-in-law who lives or was from New Hampshire, and she tells me that
that is a very beautiful area of the state.
Wendy Thomas: It's gorgeous. Um, we're known as the mountainous state for a reason, you know, um,
lots, especially up north there's, there's lots of parks and trees and mountains and lakes. It's, it's
gorgeous. It's a beautiful State to live in.
Danielle DeVasto: Wendy, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in
your community?
Wendy Thomas: Sure. Um, I'm going to start at the beginning, um, because that works the best for me.
So in 2016, I heard about a water group in our town. Merrimack Concerned Citizens for wat- uh clean
water. Um, and so I went to one of their meetings because I thought it had to do with a pipeline that had
been proposed that was gonna run through our town, which was, we had feared, it would disrupt our
water supply and, and I, and they, they pulled the pipeline project. And so I, I thought that the water
situation had been, you know, resolved. So I went to this meeting, and I heard about something called
PFAS chemicals. And that was really my first introduction to it. I didn't, I didn't know what these chemicals
were. I didn't know they were in the water. Um, we have a private well, so I thought we were okay,
'causae they were talking about public water being tested. Um, and so, um, but because I, as I said, I
have six kids, um, at the time they were living at home. So I got our private well tested. Um, and again,
this was 2016, um, and our levels, um, were so high that we had to shut our well down immediately. Um,
and um, now the state had told us, so we know who is polluting our town. It's, it's an industrial corporation
called Saint Gobain. They've been spewing this chemical into the air, into the soil, into the, uh, water for
decades. Um, and it was only discovered in 2016 when they self-reported. So it had to have been bad at
that point. Um, and originally the State of New Hampshire had said the only people that needed to be
concerned about contamination in their water were people who lived within a half mile radius of this
company. Um, pretty quickly after doing some testing, they modified that to a mile radius. Now I lived
three miles from this corporation. So the state was telling me that my water was safe, and I got it tested
and it was so high, we had to shut it down. So my husband and I installed a full house filtration system.
Page 1
�We put in an, uh, reverse osmosis in the kitchen. The kids were only allowed to drink from the reverse
osmosis. Um, and again, I mean the cost of a full house filtration system plus the reverse osmosis, plus to
maintain them yearly, plus the, the fee to get them installed was about $5,000. And we had to pay this
because a corporation did this to our water, you know, so, um, but, but of course we did, and we were
fortunate that we could afford that, but so many people in our town, you know, couldn't afford that. So,
um, I got active in this group, and we tried real hard to, um, to educate people in town about PFAS. But,
um, the problem with these chemicals is you can't see them, you can't smell them, you can't taste them.
And so the group was primarily women, and we were labeled fearmongers um, you know, you know, we
hate our town because we're trying to get people not to move here. You know, we're gonna cause the,
the town property values to go down because we're talking about this contamination. So initially we, we
had a lot of, um, uh, pushback from the town. Um, and then, you know, throughout the years there, there
were a couple of red flags, but I never really put them all together. All six of my kids, um, were born with
dyslexia, um, which is a learning disability could be genetic couldn't, you know, might not be genetic who
knows. Um, I recently put down my fourth dog who has died of cancer. Um, and that seems a little
problematic to have four dogs, you know, in one household all have cancer like that. Um, my kids all have
autoimmune issues. Um, again, genetic, maybe, maybe not it's, it's not in either of our families. Um, my
husband, um, had, uh, several heart attacks and had a quadruple bypass at age 55, which is fairly young
for that, and again, you know, we thought, you know, maybe it's just bad luck and everything. Um, and
then in May of last year I was diagnosed with, uh, breast cancer. Um, it was invasive lobular cancer,
which, um, very lucky to have found it early. Um, and so I opted for, uh, a bilateral mastectomy. Um, they,
they were trying to get me to only do one side, but I, I did both. Um, and they found four precancerous
conditions in the unaffected breast. So, um, I had, I spoke with the environmental working group in DC,
and they suggested I get my blood tested for PFAS chemicals. And this is after being on a whole house
filtration system, having water delivered by Saint Gobain for the last three years, plastic bottled water.
Um, I have 12 chemicals in my blood that are above the toxic limit that that is allowed for humans, 12
PFAS chemicals. My, um, PFOS chemicals are 38 times the maximum value that's allowed for humans,
and those are associated with breast cancer. Um, my PFOA chemicals, I have more than 99% of
Americans do. Um, and those are associated with ovary and fallopian tube cancer. So I had previously
had, um, a hysterectomy, but, um, because of the blood levels, my oncologists, um, decided that, that it
would be, um, prudent for me to go and remove my ovaries and fallopian tubes to, to get rid of them
before the cancer could essentially find them. So, so that's what it's like living in a contaminated town. We
have to amputate parts of our body, our bodies to stay ahead of the, the poisonous toxins that will give us
cancer, um, in order to stay alive, you know, we have to, we have to lay them at the altar of corporate
greed because they're not stopping. They're to this day. They're still, um, emitting PFAS, uh, chemicals
into our, our environment. Well, and, and my husband had his blood tested, and he has the same
chemicals I do. He doesn't have them at as high a level as I do, but, you know, and of course the, the, the
corporation is saying, there's no direct proof right now that PFAS causes chemical or causes cancer. Um,
Page 2
�but we're finding that there, there are cases where it's causing cancer, and you know, I'm done, I'm done,
I've got cancer, you know, so, I, there's nothing for me to, to, to hold back anymore.So, you know, they're
saying that that it's not related, and I'm saying it's quacking like a duck, it's looking like a duck it's walking
like a duck. You know, I think what we have here is a big fat duck.
Danielle DeVasto: So you had mentioned that you were starting to get involved with the, the group, your
local group. Um, is it something that you're still doing, or how did that, how has that been?
Wendy Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. So because of that group, um, that's the reason I ran for state rep the first
time there were two others that were involved in that group. So we became the water warriors for our
town, and we got elected. It's a very red town, we're blue, but, um, we got elected. Um, and so we
immediately went up to the state house and we, we put bills forward to, um, uh, have maximum
containment, uh, contamination levels for PFAS in our water. Um, and again, uh, a lot of people, um,
pushed back because they didn't know what PFAS was. They didn't know the damage. Um, and we were,
we were just constant. We would sit down next to somebody at lunch, and we'd say, hey, how are you?
I'm Wendy Thomas, have you heard about PFAS? You know, so, um, we did a, you know, know a real
educational job, um, educating the other, uh, state representatives. Um, I also put together a team that,
um, outside of the legislature, because sometimes you can get things done faster outside of, um, the
procedures. And we, uh, developed some educational, uh, material regarding PFAS, uh, for people in
New Hampshire. Um, and, and I've been to some conferences and, uh, attend, you still attend meetings
on it. And, and now, so I wasn't a state rep for the second term, but I got reelected the third term, so, oh,
I'm back up there putting more PFAS legislation in.
Danielle DeVasto: Did you have a background in government in, in legislation?
Wendy Thomas: No.
Danielle DeVasto: Running for representative?
Wendy Thomas: No. No. Um, I have, um, a degree in, in communications. I have a degree in, um,
medical biology. So, um, you know, the impact of all of this made, made tremendous sense to me. Um,
I'm also, um, I, I am an instructional designer. I'm a tech writer, I'm a journalist, you know, so all of these
things sort of merge together in this, in this, um, path forward for advocacy
Danielle DeVasto: You have a lot of skill sets to draw on that I'm sure —
Wendy Thomas: Yeah but government wasn't one of them though. some of these archaic rules that we
have to follow are like, you can't walk in front of the speaker during session, if you do, you have to
apologize to the entire, you know, it's just some very weird things,
Danielle DeVasto: But you mentioned that, so since, since working in this position and as a
representative that you've been doing a lot of education, not just for the community, but also within the
legislature.
Wendy Thomas: Yes. Yeah. So this year I've put two bills forward. I think they're both gonna die
because, um, there's, there's problems with lobbyists, you know, lobbyists have money, and they don't
want, you know, PFAS to be acknowledged because it's gonna cost money to remediate and to, to treat
Page 3
�it. One of my bills was that if, if, um, a real estate agent is, is showing property to a prospective buyer,
they need to notify the buyer about PFAS in the water. It sounds logical. I mean, PFAS, if you drink it for a
long time, it, it will hurt you. Um, but the real estate agents, um, were against that because they thought it
would put too much of a burden on the seller. You know, the test is about $200. It's come down from
about $400. Um, and the thing is in New Hampshire, we only recognize four, four of the many, many,
many thousands of PFAS chemicals. So, you know, it was just a drop in the bucket, but at least it was
something. Um, and then I put a bill forward to, um, mandate that insurance companies pay for preventive
care, uh, PFAS care, if your blood tests over 20 parts per million. Um, and boy, they didn't like that one at
all, the, the lobbyists and they, you know, they're, they're pretty strong up there. Um, and the reason that
that came forward is that, um, originally my, the surgery to remove my ovaries and fallopian tubes was
denied by my insurance company, because they were like PFAS. What, you know, what's that, you
know? So, um, once my physician, um, diagnosed me with environmental toxins, then it went through,
um, I also know of a young woman in town, um, who I think she's 24 years old. She has some breast
issues. She had some lumpy breasts and went to, you know, lives in our town. Um, I urged her to go, you
know, to, to a clinic and have her, her breasts examined. And, and, um, she did, and she asked about a
mammogram, and they said, oh, no, no, no, no, you don't get a mammogram until you're 29 years old.
Well, if she has cancer from PFAS in her breasts right now, she could be dead by age 29. You know, so
things are going to have to change for those of us that have high levels of PFAS in our blood. You know,
um, the CDC came out with some terrific guidelines, uh, recently they haven't fully adopted them, but they
will. Um, and these guidelines, even, you know, if a, if a baby has PFAS, um, above 20 parts per million in
their blood, you start checking them for cholesterol at age one, you know, um, when we talk about high
cholesterol, um, high blood sugar, um, as a result of PFAS in our body, we're not just talking about an
inconvenience inconvenience. Those are killer diseases, you know, cholesterol that's, that's what almost
killed my husband. You know, so it's, it's invasive, it's pervasive. Um, you know, and the biggest thing I
think is that, uh, PFAS chemicals are hormone disruptors and everything revolves around hormones,
everything in our lives. And if you doubt the power of hormones, you've never had a teenage son, you
know. You know, but everything revolves around, uh, hormones. And if you, if you mess those up, you
know, you're messing up the entire body. You know, one of the, the, um, medications that they wanted
me to go on is an estrogen blocker for, um, my, my breast cancer. But no one, no one can tell me if these
hormone disruptors work with these, this medication, or if it works against this medication. So yeah, I've
been reluctant to take it. I, I take a supplement instead, um, hoping that, you know, maybe that will, that
will work, but it's things like that. We don't have the science, um, it's going to be, I'll probably be long dead
before we have the science that's gonna prove this because we're working so slowly in the United States,
Europe is doing a better job, but, uh, we're really dragging our heels on PFAS studies in, in the United
States.
Page 4
�Danielle DeVasto: I've heard from other people that dealing sometimes dealing with the medical
community has been frustrating because, because of that leg, has that been your experience or have you
been able to get, like, get support and — ?
Wendy Thomas: No, no. That's another one of my crusades. So, um, when I got the, the, um, results of
my blood P my blood PFAS levels, I presented them to my surgeon who did my mastectomy, who I was
still under her care. And I said, these are my results. These are the interpretation of my results. And
without even looking at them, she pushed them back to me. And she said, I'm just a surgeon. I don't need
to know about PFAS. And I said, well, I've been advocating against PFAS since 2016. You are no longer
my doctor. If you choose to remain ignorant, we can't have a relationship. See you, bye. Um, and my
oncologist, she basically said the same thing. I said, what is the relationship between a, a hormone
disruptor and this estrogen blocker? And she's like, beats me. So I don't have a surgeon. I don't have an
oncologist. I'm trying to find somebody who's knowledgeable. As a State rep, I do have a platform. So I
am going to go to the supervisor of, of these doctors in Southern New Hampshire and discuss PFAS
education, because this is criminal, you know, all of Southern New Hampshire. It's not just our town
because, um, water doesn't understand boundaries, air doesn't understand boundaries. Um, and so it's
slowly spreading to the other towns, um, and to be a physician practicing in Southern New Hampshire
and not know about the impact of PFAS on the human body is in its malpractice. Um, that's what it is. It's
malpractice.
Danielle DeVasto: Have you, um, have you been in touch with other communities or has your work kind
of, I mean, you have, like you say, you have a larger platform, so I'm just curious if —
Wendy Thomas: Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, um, the, you know, we've, we've formed sort of a coalition with the
other, uh, communities, and we're working with them, although they're at the place we were in 2016,
people are starting, you know, they're, we can't smell it. We can't taste it. I've lived here my whole year,
and I'm not sick. I mean my whole life, and I'm not sick, you know, so, but the thing is there are, there is
more information about PFAS, and people now are accepting that it can cause damage, you know, to, to
humans and cancer. I mean, we have just a ton of cancer in this town. The State of New Hampshire does
a cancer survey, but they're, they've only done it up to 2018. So they're five years behind. You know, so
they have this false picture of how much cancer we have. I have been de I mean, every time I go to the
state house, I desperately ask for, um, a, a survey on small animals, you know, pets, cats, dogs, even,
uh, we're an agricultural community. So farm animals, um, because, um, I've talked to area vets, and they
say they always know a dog or a cat when it comes from our town, 'cause it's got, you know, it's riddled
with cancer, and it's got, um, uh, tumors all over its body. Um, Yeah. And then in Europe, the very first
PFAS conference I went to, um, in Italy, there's a town that's very contaminated with PFAS, and they did,
um, studies on their food, and it turns out that eggs, um, have a high amount of PFAS, produce has a
high amount of PFAS because this company, you know, they burn their refuse and the, the soot, you
know, the, the temperature doesn't destroy these forever chemicals. That's why they're called forever
chemicals. So they're, they become particulate matter. It's spread over our town. Every time they burn this
Page 5
�stuff, the rain drives it into the ground. The produce sucks it up. So our produce has PFAS in it. Our meat
has PFAS in it, you know, any milk that comes out of this town has PFAS in it. So, you know, I mean the
CDC, if you go to their guidelines, um, not the ones where you have PFAS in your blood, but just sort of
general guidelines, they say, you know, the best thing you can do is remove the source. Well, that works.
If you're only wearing a Gore-Tex jacket when you're camping, or if, you know, if you get rid of your glide,
you know, dental floss, but when you live and breathe this stuff, the only way I can eliminate the source is
to move out of my town, and who's gonna buy a house with no water in it.
Danielle DeVasto: So what do you do?
Wendy Thomas: Well, you know, again, I've got cancer, so, um, I have no, no F's left to give. So, um, I
I'm out there banging the drum. I write letters to the editor. Um, I write op-eds, um, I've shared my cancer
story, um, publicly in our town forum. Um, and many, many, many women have contacted me privately,
um, to, to say that they also have breast cancer, or they have ovarian cancer or uterine cancer or, you
know, things like that. So, um, I'm using my story to get attention about the problem, you know, I'm, I, I'm
not doing it to get sympathy. That's not why I'm doing it. I'm doing it to, because this is not fair and people
need to speak up about it.
Danielle DeVasto: You've kind of hit at some of these already, but what concerns do you have about
PFAS contamination moving forward?
Wendy Thomas: I am concerned about the life of my town. Um, one of the things that is so
underappreciated is that when pregnant women drink PFAS laced water at the levels we're seeing in our
town, their children have a high incidence of learning disabilities. And, you know, they're, again, this is
going to affect their hormones, which, you know, we have a, we have a high degree of, of kids with
gender confusion in our town. And in, in surrounding towns, is it because of the PFAS chemicals? You
know, again, we don't know, but again, it's another quacking like a duck situation, you know? So, so, you
know, women, especially pregnant women, they need to be given filtered water. You know, we, we just
can't, we can't let them drink this stuff. Um, and, and kids, you know, of women that have PFAS in their
blood, we need to screen them immediately and start, you know, special education services or just, you
know, monitoring services for these kids and the older people, you know, that have lived in town. Now,
again, I've been here for 30 years. Um, I nursed all of my kids, so I drank a ton of water, um, which could
explain why I have higher chemicals or higher levels than my husband. Um, but I'm worried about my
children, you know, they're adults, um, they all have health issues, you know, what's gonna happen to
them. I worry about, you know, my neighbor's children's, I worry about our town, you know, and it's, it's
just, it's criminal what's happening. Um, but we can't, we're not, we don't seem to be able to stop it, which
is, you know, I can't figure that out because it's directly hurting people, and yet they're allowed to
continue. So, you know, whenever that's the case, you always have to follow the money, and I'm trying to
figure out where the money is involved. Um, and I haven't come up with much yet.
Page 6
�Danielle DeVasto: I mean, it's so ironic, right? You, you drink water because that's, what's supposed to
be healthy for you.Good for you. And you're trying to make good decisions. And yet, as it turns out, you
know the consequences.
Wendy Thomas: You know, and I'm one of the water warriors. So, so I did all the right things. We
installed that the filtration system, we, we drank from RO, um, and, and still, still, it looks like I may have
gotten sick from these chemicals. Um, it looks like my whole family has been affected by these chemicals.
So, you know, if a water warrior can't even protect our own family, what chance do other people in town
have? I mean, right now in New Hampshire, you know, the, the utility bills are through the roof, you know,
with inflation, with, with, you know, people losing work because their kids are home sick from school
because they're getting infected with COVID. People don't have a spare $5,000 to, to make sure their
water is clean, you know, and again, it's because of this, this corporation, you know, it's, it's truly an
example of profit over people.
You know, and the social warrior in me is just chronically incensed. Um, because it shouldn't be that way
people should, should be first over profit.
Danielle DeVasto: And this has been going on in Merrimack for quite some time. It sounds like.
Wendy Thomas: Yes. Yes. Well, the, the company before this company was a one called Chem Fab,
and I'm quite certain, they were probably doing the same thing, you know, disposing of their chemicals,
uh, in, in ways that, that perhaps, well, no, that not perhaps that aren't legal. Um, but this company that
moved in Saint Gobain it, their headquarters are in France, you know, and France has very strict
environmental rules. If they did this in France, their CEO would be in jail, You know, but they came to
America, and they came to the, to, to New Hampshire, live free and die. It's supposed to be live free or
die, but, um, where we have, you know, few regulations, um, and they, they picked a town that was near
river that had, you know, that wasn't, you know, a, a, a town that, that was organized. We don't have a
town square or anything like that. Um, and they, they just ran with it because they could, so one of my
goals is I wanna try to reach out to President Macron and just say, are you aware of this company
destroying my town, this French company, you know, and if you are, why aren't you doing something
about it?
Danielle DeVasto: Boy, the things I bet you thought you'd never be doing, reaching out.
Wendy Thomas: No, no kidding. I mean, I'm also trying to have a, have a meeting with President Biden,
you know, because he's, he's big on the moonshot, you know, cancer program, and it's fine to fly to the
moon. It's fine to land on the moon, but if we don't clean up planet earth, it's not gonna do us any good,
you know, so, um, but very often politicians don't wanna hear this because, um, it impacts, you know, big
donors to their campaigns. And I don't have big donors. I, um, am a state rep in New Hampshire. I am
paid a hundred dollars a year to be a state rep.
Danielle DeVasto: No big donors,
Wendy Thomas: No big donors. No, no. I'm lucky if I get a free lunch every once in a while.
Page 7
�Danielle DeVasto: Before we wrap up today, Wendy, is there anything else that you want to add that we
haven't touched on or that you want to go back to and say more about?
Wendy Thomas: Um, not really. I mean, that's, that's the story. Um, you know, as a result of this, I, I now
have to live the rest of my life wondering if every pain is cancer or if, you know, every symptom is cancer.
Um, thanks to this, this company, living in my town, I have to be concerned about my two daughters, you
know, whether or not they're going to have cancer. I have to be concerned about my four sons, whether
or not they're gonna have to, you know, end up having cancer. Um, it's just this chronic anxiety. Um, and,
and I could leave my town, you know, I could move to greener pastures, but the damage has already
been done, you know, so I'm gonna stay here, and I've decided I'm gonna stay here and fight, um, and try
to get acknowledgement and maybe some re- remediation, you know? Um, but yeah, I'm not going
anywhere, and I'm not being quiet. I've never known for being quiet. So
Danielle DeVasto: Well, thank you so much, Wendy, for taking the time to share your story today.
Wendy Thomas: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for what you're doing. This is really important work.
Danielle DeVasto: Thank you.
Wendy Thomas: You're welcome.
Page 8
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c06f3ec0759ce27419896ea251274a82.mp4
e6aa24ce84980a180424e40d73d9d3d4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Living with PFAS Interviews
Creator
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Devasto, Danielle
Description
An account of the resource
The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS.
Date
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2021
Source
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Living with PFAS (project)
Rights
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In copyright
Subject
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Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
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DC-11
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video/mp4
application/pdf
audio/mp3
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Motion Picture
Text
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eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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Identifier
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PFAS0037
Creator
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Thomas, Wendy
Date
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2023-03-01
Title
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Wendy Thomas, 2023 (Interview video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Wendy Thomas grew up in Fairfield, Connecticut and now resides in Merrimack, New Hampshire with her husband and six children. After her concerns and advocacy over PFAS grew, Wendy was elected to the New Hampshire State House of Representatives, where she worked to improve water quality and educate other representatives. In this interview, Wendy discusses her family's history with PFAS contamination of their well water, as well as her own advocacy and political action related to PFAS.
Contributor
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DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer)
Subject
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Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
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Living with PFAS (project)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a>
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ed8ae518173423b71503e112ae0deb2d.pdf
d872b7f0104e225c1a62d6bfc9606994
PDF Text
Text
Living with PFAS
Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto
Interviewee: Andrea Amico
Date of Interview: 2023-02-10
Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto. And today, February 10, 2023. I have the pleasure of chatting with
Andrea Amico. Hi Andrea.
Andrea Amico: Hi,
Danielle DeVasto: Andrea, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live?
Andrea Amico: Sure. Um, I grew up in central Massachusetts, uh, Leominster, Mass, but I currently live
in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
Danielle DeVasto: How long have you lived there?
Andrea Amico: I moved to Portsmouth New Hampshire in 2007 when my husband took a job up this
way, it brought us from Massachusetts to New Hampshire. And we have been here since.
Danielle DeVasto: Can you tell me a story please? About your experience with PFA S or with PFAS in
your community?
Andrea Amico: Sure. So I like to say in May of 2014, my life changed forever. I read a newspaper article
that had said they found high levels of PFAS in the drinking water wells at the Pease Tradeport, uh, which
is imports with New Hampshire, where I live. And it is home to a former Air Force base that had been shut
down in 1991. So many years before I had moved to the area and really knew a lot about the prior Air
Force base and the fact that it was a super fun site. I didn't know that, but why it was important to me and
devastating to me, frankly, when I learned that there was contamination, there was because my husband
was working for a company at the Pease Tradeport. And my two children were attending a daycare center
located at the Tradeport, and all three of them were drinking the water every day. And so when I read that
article that they had found high levels of PFAS, and they had to shut down a large drinking water well,
because the contamination was significant. Um, my heart sank, you know, because I was like, whoa, I
don't know what these chemicals are, but my family's drinking that water. My kids are drinking that water.
Like, what is this? What does this mean? So that's how I became introduced to PFAS back in 2014.
Danielle DeVasto: And then what happened after that point for you? So you found out, you read the
article and then, and then what?
Andrea Amico: Yeah. So I started attending community meetings that were being hosted by our city and
our state, and I just started trying to learn as much as I could about these chemicals. And, you know,
back then in 2014, there wasn't a lot of information. Honestly, I, you know, searched the internet and I
could find stuff about the C8 health project and C8 health study in Parkersburg, West Virginia. I found
some EPA documents that were like 800 pages long and really hard to make sense of, but PFAS was
not, uh, known and given the, you know, attention in the media and, uh, frankly like the scientific studies
and resources that it is today. Um, and so I attended some community meetings and tried to do my, do
my best to educate myself. And, um, the first thing I really started advocating for was blood testing for my
community, because I knew that these chemicals built up in the body, and they stayed there for a long
time. And I knew that you could have a blood test to determine how much was in your body. Um, even
Page 1
�though we don't really know what that means, but you know, or at the time we didn't really know what it
meant, but, so that was like one of the first things I did was advocate for blood testing. And then I formed
a community action group with two other moms whose children also went to the daycare center, and we
formed a group called Testing for Pease. And our first big, big push was that blood testing program.
Hence, the testing part of Testing for Pease.
Danielle DeVasto: And how did that go?
Andrea Amico: Um, so we were successful. It took a lot of pressure, um, but we were able to get our
State health department to offer a PFAS blood testing program to our, to the community at the Pease
Tradeport, um, between 2015 and 2018 of almost 2000 people participated in that program. And it did
reveal elevated levels of PFAS in the blood when compared to the, you know, general population. We
know everybody has some detectable levels of PFAS in their blood, but the levels at the Pease Tradeport
were elevated when compared to, you know, the general population. And with that information, we were
able to advocate for filtration of the drinking water and the Air Force paid for that. Uh, we were also able
to advocate for health studies for the community, and we were successful in getting two PFAS health
studies for our community. One was with the ATSDR, Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease
Registry. They're a kind of like a sister branch of the CDC. They're a federal health agency that works
with communities who have dealt with environmental contamination. Um, so we did have a large health
study done, uh, that actually wrapped up about a year ago, and we're still awaiting our community results.
And we have another health study that's ongoing today, um, called the PFAS reach study and that's
funded by the NIEHS, and that is, um, looking at children of mothers who drink water at Pease, um, and
looking at their, the child's PFAS levels and their immune function, 'cause we know PFAS can impact
vaccines and vaccine effectiveness and the immune function of children. So, um, so we've been really
successful here, you know, that blood testing program that we initially advocated for, I think opened up a
lot of opportunities for advocating for remediation filtration and additional health studies.
Danielle DeVasto: Wow. That's great that you guys have been so successful. What do you attribute that
to? 'Cause I don't think that's the story everywhere.
Andrea Amico: Yeah, I completely agree. I think there's a couple things. I think we were one of the first
communities to really grapple with this. I know there were some others, but um, we were one of the first
back in 2014, like I said, you know, Parkersburg, West Virginia was kind of on the radar with the CA
health study there. But, um, and I know that, uh, the Wurtsmith Air Force Base had found their
contamination as well. But I think us being one of the first, uh, communities to have a really significant
contamination, uh, especially to a trad port of, you know, about 10,000 people were coming to this
tradeport to work every day. Um, so I think timing being one of the first and really pushing when there
wasn't a hundred other communities asking for the same thing, we were kind of the first ones. Um, I also
think, like I said, we were a tradeport. Um, our forma military base was closed under what's called the bra
program. It was the first BRAC site with DOD base realignment closure. Um, that program was really that
program focuses on taking former bases and redeveloping them. And so I know Pease was considered a
Page 2
�very big success story to the Air Force. The fact that they took this old base, redeveloped it into this large
industrial park with 250 businesses, 10,000 employees like there's, you know, community colleges,
restaurants, a golf course, um, all kinds of businesses, medical office buildings, restaurants, like this was
a highly successful place for New Hampshire as well as a large economic hub for New Hampshire. You
know, so they really, we, no one could just really walk away from this community. You know, I mean this
was a, a significant resource and asset to New Hampshire. So I think that was part of it as well. Um, and I
also think we were very successful in establishing relationships very early on with our congressional
delegation and our elected officials and a lot of the efforts that happened at Pease, where as a result of,
you know, our Senator from New Hampshire Jeanne Shaheen, who's been a PFAS leader in the U.S.
Senate, uh, making sure we have funding for the health study, the at ATSDR Health Study, really pushing
for the air force to clean up and filter the water. And, um, we also had an EPA order from region one that
ordered the E uh, Air Force to clean up the contamination. And again, I think part of that was timing of
being one of the first, but also just, I feel like it was a lot of things that came together, you know, timing
quick, organizing on the community part, asking for things, being one of the first and having strong
relationships with congressional leaders who were able to really, um, put legislation in place to give us
action. So I attribute all of our successes to a combination of those things.
Danielle DeVasto: Prior to all of this beginning, were you, um, did you have a background in community
organization advocacy work?
Andrea Amico: No, I get asked that a lot. No, I didn't. [LAUGHTER[ Um, so by training, I'm an
occupational therapist. I work in the world of rehabilitation, neuro adult rehab. Um, and so yeah, no, I
didn't have any knowledge. Like I was never an envi-. I wouldn't, you know, didn't think a whole lot, lot
about the environment, you know, like this just never politically active. Um, it just wasn't, it just wasn't
something I ever did or was never part of my life, even my family, you know, it just wasn't something I was
raised to do. So it honestly took this happening to my family and my community to kind of spark a fire
inside of me and say like, all right, like we gotta do something here, you know? And I think that's what
was so shocking to me in the beginning when like they found our contamination, they shut down the well,
and, you know, at first we were asking for blood testing, and it was like, we weren't getting, making a lot of
progress on that. And it just, it kind of like, it shocked me that like a large amount of people could have
been exposed, you know, were exposed to high levels of contaminants and drinking water. And at the
time they were calling them emerging contaminants and our State health department was like, we don't
really know the health effects. Like we're just not really sure. And it seemed like everyone was okay with
just not being sure as a reason to not do anything. And that just, I couldn't accept that, you know, and like,
I can't accept the unknown as a good enough answer not to do anything. Like if you don't know, you have
to find out, you have to do health studies, you have to do blood testing. Like you can't just leave us all to
carry on with our lives and not know if we're gonna get sick from this over time or, you know, so, um,
yeah, sorry. That was a long winded answer, but, uh, no, I didn't have any prior experience and in a way I
Page 3
�feel like that was a benefit. 'Cause I just came at this like trying to use common sense and be like, okay,
you have to do more like, it's like not acceptable to just accept the unknown.
Danielle DeVasto: So you're continuing right now with your advocacy work, correct?
Andrea Amico: Yes.
Danielle DeVasto: Like it's not, it's not done.
Andrea Amico: Oh, it's definitely not done. I, I tell people it's, it's like a lifetime. I have set my mind up
that this will be a lifetime of work for me in some way or another, you know? Um, I do a lot of work at the
national level now, so I'm part of the national PFAS contamination coalition. I helped found that in 2017,
and we're a large group of community, community leaders like me from all over the country, um, who are
also dealing with this issue, whether it's at former military bases like mine, whether it's at industrial sites,
like Saint Galvan um, that's contaminated, Miramac New Hampshire, Husick Falls, uh, Husick Falls, New
York, uh, lots of firefighters who also are concerned about PFAS. Um, so yeah, we're a real, you know,
broad group of people and working at the national level to try to get better EPA regulations, you know,
hold polluters accountable so they are forced to clean up this mess. They're forced to fund health studies
and, and make people whole again, you know, um, it's, it's incredibly wrong what has happened with
PFAS in this country? You know, the fact that manufacturers hid the health effects for so many years,
they were just allowed to manufacture so many PFAS, put them out into our environment. They're in our
bodies, um, with no regulations with no consequences. And even now what we know, we're still, we still
aren't at a point where they're regulated at a federal level. I mean, we're getting there, but, um, it's, it's, it's
absolutely horrific to me how this is all played out in our country. And I hope it's an example of like how
we need to do so much better as a country and as a society and how we treat chemicals and what we're
willing to expose people to. And, um, because these chemicals are never going away. And so anyways, I
see my work as something that will go on forever. I really do. As, as long as I'm living, there will be
something to work on with PFAS. Um, and, and I'm committed to that. You know, I, I gave a, a TEDx talk
in my community a few years ago, and I ended, I ended the line, like, I'll see people, and they're like, oh,
you're still doing that water stuff. And I'm like, yeah. And I, I ended my talk saying like, you know, I, I'm
never gonna stop because I'm just as per persistent as PFAS, you know, like, I'm, [LAUGHTER] I'm just
as persistent as PFAS. So like, yeah, it's, my work will evolve over time, but like I have committed my
mind to a lifetime of work on PFAS to some degree
Danielle DeVasto: In the move that you've made from kind of focusing on just the local to the national,
um, like what, what has that shift been like for you, or what have you noticed in making those shifts?
Andrea Amico: Um, well the I've noticed that I'm not alone., [LAUGHTER] um, we're not alone, you
know, as frustrating as it feels to be. Sometimes you can feel siloed in your own community and how
everything happens. Um, I've realized that there's a lot of other people out there just like us who have
experienced the same things, um, who want the same things. And all of our stories are different. You
know, our polluters are different. Our sources of PFAS are different in some cases, but like, we all want
the same things. Like we don't wanna be exposed to chemicals that we didn't volunteer or sign up for, you
Page 4
�know? Um, and so I've, I feel a sense of collaboration and I feel a sense of validation with a larger group
of people that it's not just us, it's not just New Hampshire, it's not just Portsmouth. Um, and I also feel a
bigger sense of responsibility. The more people that join our coalition and the more stories I hear, I feel
more of a sense of responsibility of why I need to keep going, because if I stop and look at like everything
we've gotten in my community, I'm really proud of that. And I'm really happy. And I feel like I could just be
like, Hey, we have our, you know, the Air Force is cleaning it up. They're filtering our water. We're getting
our health studies. We've had our blood testing like good, you know, like I could just, but I, I feel a bigger
sense of like, like you said, that's not the norm in most communities. Like people are fighting tooth and
nail for blood testing and health studies and filtration and, um, and the numbers of communities
discovering this contamination continue to grow. So I just, I feel a bigger sense of responsibility to
something bigger than just my community and trying to use the knowledge and the experience I have to
move the needle even further. Like we have to stop exposing people to PFAS. We do. Um, and, and we
have to study the people who have been exposed, and we have to make the people who have been
exposed and are harmed, we have to make them whole again, you know? And so, um, so there's yeah, a
lot more to do. And it's bigger than just here.
Danielle DeVasto: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving
forward?
Andrea Amico: Well, I, I am concerned that a, a few things I'm concerned that we can't even detect all of
them, you know? So the current testing, we have lacks the ability to really know what's, you know, uh,
when something is said to be PFAS free, or we're gonna, you know, stop using PFAS, like my antenna
immediately goes up, like, what does that mean? Is that mean just 20 of 'em, you know, PFAS is a class
of, I've heard 12,000, 15,000, the number keeps growing. So it concerns me that we can't even detect all
of them or truly know what we're being exposed to. Um, it concerns me that we don't have any federal
regulations at this point. We have health advisories. Um, I know the EPA is working on that, but, you
know, we've known for a long time that PFAS are bad. And the fact that we don't have regulations yet to
stop exposure is unacceptable. You know. Um, another challenge that I think people are facing, and one
that I've spent a lot of effort on is the fact that health, the healthcare community doesn't know what PFAS
are. And, um, I mean, even in my own community, people got blood testing done, and they bring the
results to their doctor, and their doctor was like, I don't, I don't know what this is. I don't know how to read
these blood tests. I don't, I don't know what to do with this information. And so, you know, that's another
thing as more communities become exposed. I mean, one of the first things that pops into your mind
when you learn you're exposed for at least for me, it was, is my family gonna be okay? Like, are they
gonna get sick? Like, what do I need to do to monitor their health? Like, what should I do now? I can't
undo the exposure. I can't take the PFAS out of their body any faster. So now what, and then you, you
know, go to your doctor, which seems like a very appropriate step. And, and they're, they're just, you
know, they're uneducated about it. And, um, and it's not, it's not their fault, the physician's fault, it's that
they don't get environmental health training. They're not given guidance on PFAS. They don't even know
Page 5
�how to order PFAS blood tests, you know? So, um, I think there's a lot more that needs to be done too,
on the healthcare side of things. So like, you know, I think when, when you think about lead exposure in
kids, like doctors know that that's not good, and there's a level in the blood that you wanna be below. And
if a kid has lead, there's steps, you can take, you know, to help them. I hope someday with PFAS, we can
be there too with the healthcare community. They're gonna know how to test for it in the blood. They're
gonna know what levels are concerning. And if you have an elevated level, they're gonna know what tests
to run and steps to take, to monitor your health and try to keep you healthy, you know? And we have,
we've seen some progress on that for sure. But that's another area I think, need that needs a lot of work.
Danielle DeVasto: Before we wrap up today, is there anything else that you would like to add that we
haven't touched on today or anything that you'd like to go back to and say more about?
Andrea Amico: Um, I just think, I think a few thoughts, or just, I'll kind of elaborate on a few things I've
said, um, it's infuriating to me how far this PFAS issue has become, um, how far it's gotten out of hand, I
should say in the sense that the chemical companies that made these chemicals decades ago knew,
knew the harms of them. Um, they hid that information, and they continued to make these chemicals
profit off of them. And, and frankly, they continued to do that today. And I just, I, I really struggle with that.
You know, I really struggle that a company, uh, can do something like that to our entire society and yet
face no real consequences. Um, it's crazy to me that the people that have been harmed by these
chemicals the most are the ones that have to like stand up and fight tooth and nail, uh, while these
chemicals were, these companies were just allowed to profit off of them. And I, I think, I think our
government and our society should make a very strong example of these companies. And I think they
need to be criminally held responsible, uh, for what they've done. And, um, and I hope that we'll, I'll hope
I'll see that in my lifetime because they absolutely need to be held responsible. Um, I will also say that,
you know, as a mom, like this has been like one of the most emotional things for me as a mother, you
know? Um, I think as a mom, you, you try to do everything right. You know, when I was pregnant with my
kids, I like took my prenatal vitamins. I went to all my appointments, um, when, when I was looking for
daycares for them, like, I, you know, toward the daycares, I asked so many questions. Like, are you first
aid certified? What's your curriculum? What's your teacher to child ratio? Never once. Did I question the
quality of the water? Never once. Um, that's like something that just eats me up inside as a mom that like,
unbeknownst to me, I sent my children to a daycare center that had highly contaminated water. Um, and
the daycare didn't know either, you know, so even if I had asked the question, they wouldn't have known,
but I can't tell you like what that's done to me emotionally, that I made a choice that put my kids in harm's
way and that, you know, that's honestly, the reason why I fight so hard is for them, like, I can't undo,
what's been done in the past, but like, if I can do everything I can to make this better in the future, I will.
And if I can do anything, I can to prevent this from happening to another mom or family, like I will. Um, but
it's really robbed me of a lot of my happiness. And it's really like taken a lot away from me as a person.
Um, and that's like something I don't think people truly understand like emotionally and psychologically,
what contamination does to a family or an individual or, uh, to a community. You know, it's just, it's just,
Page 6
�it's just absolutely devastating. It feels like the ultimate betrayal, honestly. Um, and so, you know, I guess
I just, you know, talking about the human side of things and, you know, it's easy to be like with, I
advocated for this, and we got this and like, you know, I'm so proud of those things. Those things bring
me a lot of pride and joy that I've been lucky to work with community members, and we've accomplished
so much, but I, I just want people to know that it's not easy, and it's, it's life changing, and it's not for the
better, so I guess that's what all, but I guess, and one other thing just like, what keeps me going though,
and I'll just end with this is that we have seen progress, you know, a lot. Um, not only in awareness, like I
told you, no one knew what PFAS were or even heard of 'em before. Like the amount of legislation that's
passed the amount of resources. I mean, there was $10 billion put billion with a B put in the infrastructure
bill to address PFAS. Like that's huge, you know, um, a lot of money, a lot of attention, a lot of awareness,
a lot of science going on. Um, that's what gives me hope. And I just, um, wanna just keep moving
forward. Like I said, just if we can prevent this from ever happening again, make a strong example of
what's already happened and help the people who have been harmed like that. That's what we need to
do.
Danielle DeVasto: So I suspect that you can never, you mentioned before being, you know, you want to
work to help communities and people feel whole again. Um, and I suspect that after the kind of, you
know, you say betrayal that you felt and, um, the other, you know, just all the ramifications of finding out
something like this happened to your community, that you can never maybe a hundred percent be as you
were mm-hmm, but I'm just, I was curious for you or for your community, um, or people that you work
with, what do you think could be done to make you feel as whole as possible? Like what, what would that
look like for you?
Andrea Amico: I think it's a few different things. So it's having like an established medical monitoring
program that allows people to have access to healthcare, so they can monitor their health and catch any
health effects early. Like right now we don't have that. It's very fragmented. Um, so having a system in
place that will help people monitor their health, that they don't have to pay for that, you know, and if
people do suffer health effects as a result of that, they of their contamination, they should be
compensated. I think if people have lost property values, because they live in a, in an area that's
contaminated and people don't wanna buy their house now, or live there, they should be compensated for
that. Um, I think holding the polluters accountable, you know, like criminally, um, is so important, you
know, like, no, one's no one's ever apologized. Like, no one's ever said, like, we're sorry, this happened to
you. You know, like I think owning the mistakes of the past are so important. Like as much as I like to look
forward to the future and like, how do we change this and make this better? Like that past is so important
and acknowledging the mistakes, apologizing to the communities and like taking full accountability is also
another part of it. Um, absolutely cleaning up the contamination. Like it shouldn't be left in our water in our
soil and, and that's even trickier. Like it's everywhere now, it's in our food, it's in our plants, it's in our fish,
it's in the air, it's in rainwater. Like, you know, so I think being whole, again means a lot of different things,
but it comes down to like accountability, cleaning it up, um, and not putting the burden of paying for all of
Page 7
�this stuff on the communities, you know? Um, and, and whether that's paying for filtration of their water or
paying to go to see the doctor, 'cause they might have health issues or losing, you know, some folks like
in New Hampshire, um, you know, their property values went down like that's their retirement, you know
what I mean? Their home, the value of their home. Um, it's just, it touches on so many issues. And so I
think there's a lot that needs to be done to make us whole, but those are just some that pop off pop to the
top of my mind.
Danielle DeVasto: Mm-hmm those would all be excellent places to start. Mm-hmm mm-hmm even if,
maybe it's not, you know, ultimately you can't undo what, what has been done as you've said mm-hmm
so,
Andrea Amico: Yeah, and I, I just hope too, like the technology advances on how to get rid of PFAS, you
know, 'cause even at this point we can't destroy it. We can't like even incineration there's concerns with it
there. So it's like in some ways too, I'm so grateful in my community, they're filtering it from the water, and
you know, they concentrate it and right now they send it to a landfill aligned landfill, and I'm grateful that
it's leaving my community, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, we're just like taking this pollution and
moving it somewhere else. Like we're making it somebody else's problem someday. And that seems
wrong too. You know, it's like we don't even have, and then I wonder like then why do we approve new
PFAS on the market? We can't even handle the PFAS. We have, we don't even have a good
understanding of the health impacts of all the PFAS that are on the market. Like why would we add more
into the environment? You know? Um, so again, I'm just hopeful with the resources and the awareness
and the scientific interest in PFAS that we will see more advances on remediation, technology and
destruction. Um, so we're not just like picking up the pollution and moving it around instead of actually
getting rid of it. But again, all the reason we probably should have never made this stuff in the first place
'cause we can't get rid of it, you know? Um, so yeah.
Danielle DeVasto: Well thank you Andrea for taking the time to share your story today. Thank you.
Andrea Amico: Yeah. Thanks for talking with me.
Page 8
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c414045606e4db58f7f931ffd70d4862.mp4
e2af5c96a3d378d8ac6f7a99f8896749
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Living with PFAS Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Devasto, Danielle
Description
An account of the resource
The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS.
Date
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2021
Source
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Living with PFAS (project)
Rights
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In copyright
Subject
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Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
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DC-11
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video/mp4
application/pdf
audio/mp3
Type
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Motion Picture
Text
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Language
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eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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PFAS0036
Creator
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Amico, Andrea
Date
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2023-02-10
Title
A name given to the resource
Andrea Amico, 2023 (Interview video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Andrea Amico lives in Portsmouth, New Hampshire where she moved in 2007. In this interview, Andrea discusses her activism and advocacy about PFAS contamination after learning about the superfund site at the Pease Tradeport, where her husband worked and children attended daycare.
Contributor
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DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer)
Subject
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Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
Source
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Living with PFAS (project)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a>
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/57c2544194170a01b830ba13308da6ab.pdf
a25ffe5194e638dd9987fb1d36bb81ce
PDF Text
Text
Living with PFAS
Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto
Interviewee: Karen Vorce |
Date of Interview: 2023-01-13
Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, January 13, 2023, I have the pleasure of chatting with
Karen Vorce. Karen, thanks so much for coming and talking with me today.
Karen Vorce: Of course. Thanks for having me.
Danielle DeVasto: Can you tell me about where you're from Karen, and where you currently live?
Karen Vorce: Yes. Um, I- I live here in Kent County, Michigan, um, on the west side of Kent County in
the City of Walker, and I also work here in Kent County as well, um, at the Michigan Department of
Environment, Great Lakes, and Energy in the Remediation Redevelopment Division, and our district office
is in downtown Grand Rapids, in Kent County.
Danielle DeVasto: And how long have you been in Kent County, Karen?
Karen Vorce: Let's see, I've lived in Kent County now for about six and a half years. Um, I actually
moved to the west side of Michigan, from the Metro Detroit area in the summer of 2016.
Danielle DeVasto: Thank you. Karen, can you tell me a story, please, about your experience with PFAS
or with PFAS in your community?
Karen Vorce: Sure, yes. Um, so it kinda has to deal with me working for the State of Michigan and the
Department of Environment. Um, I started here at the state, um, in February 2017. I transferred over from
doing environmental work in consulting, um, for a number of, uh, [LIP SMACK] the regulated community
in the State of Michigan, for about seven years, and so I was really excited. Um, I applied for the job at
the state, and I was able to get the job and, um, [LIP SMACK] always had wanted to work for- for the
State of Michigan. And, [LIP SMACK] um, so I started in February 2017, and that was right when
[NOTIFICATION SOUND] we were just starting to learn about Scotchgard, um, the fabric protectant, uh,
waterproofing used by Wolverine Worldwide, um, at their tannery facility in downtown Rockford, which
was, uh, had been long gone since about 2010. And, um, so yeah, I was assigned to cover as a project
manager and geologist, uh, northern Kent County on my first day, and it just so happened that this
Wolverine site was located also in northern Kent County, so it landed in my lap, and I remember about a
month in, you know, hearing that the citizens' group had- had met with some of my colleagues and my
supervisor in January, so just about a month before I started, and had brought concerns about the waste
stream that would've left the tannery [SNIFFLE] containing PFAS, the Scotchgard material, and where
that was disposed of at this, uh, property called the House Street Dump. And so I remember we started
looking for any records on that, and then, um, [LIP SMACK] we had never sampled for PFAS at a site, an
environmental site, [LIP SMACK] um, any sites of contamination in our district before that time. So this
was definitely something new to- to Eagle in our divi- our district. Um, there were a couple other sites,
military installations, that had been doing testing [SNIFFLE] in other places. So we kinda had to learn,
myself and colleagues had to learn the process of collecting PFAS samples, how to do it properly, um,
and so we started sampling some wells, um, just to the northeast of the House Street Dump because a
Page 1
�well permit had come in. Someone wanted to install a new well and knowing that the concerns that were
brought to us from the citizen group, um, you know, and obviously the local health department, we all
kinda were like, well, let's sample those houses around where this permit is to make sure that there's not
PFAS in there. Um, Wolverine agreed to do that sampling. Um, it was difficult to- to get liable parties to do
that sampling at that time 'cause we didn't have regulated, um—PFAS compounds were not regulated.
We had no criteria, so really no legal teeth, um, to request sampling, but, uh, you know, Wolverine did
agree. Uh, we also requested onsite work to start doing onsite sampling at the House Street site, as well
as at the tannery site where it was occurring—where the tanning operations happened, but, um, you
know, that was in April 2017, and then, you know, those results, fortunately, um, they did- they did detect
some PFAS, but at that time we thought, okay, it's- it wasn't above the EPA lifetime health advisory that
we were using, uh, which was 70 parts per trillion for PFOA and PFOS, [LIP SMACK] and, um, so we
thought, okay, well at least those folks are, you know, below the 70, 'cause we didn't really have any other
levels or- or known values to go off of. So, uh, we said, okay, let's- let's shift Wolverine. We need you to
keep—we need you to do something at the site. We gotta get groundwater samples at the site cause
there's other houses around here, right, um, that, you know, could be impacted. So that was- that was
going on, and lo and behold—so the sampling was done in April. In May, the end of May, we got a call
from the Department of Defense, um, because they had done sampling of the Belmont Armory,
[SNIFFLE] which is on the House Street site—not on the hou—is on House Street, just down the road
from the House Street Dump. They sampled their private well for PFAS because the Department of
Defense was sampling all their properties across the United States at that time for PFAS because of their
training with, um, [LIP SMACK] the Aqua- Aqueous Film-Forming- Film-Forming Foam, the AFFF, that
they've been using at a lot of their properties. Um, that was—AFFF was not used at the Belmont Armory.
It used to be a church, and then they used it for, like, band practice. So, um, when they got a hit in their
well of, I believe it was 120 parts per trillion for PFOA and PFOS, um, we got that result, and we were,
like, look, this- this is what, you know, we're worried about Wolverine. This is why we've been asking you
to do this. We need you to sample wells now, like we know there's a problem. You can't just be focusing
on the- on the site, we need to sample residential wells. And so that summer of 2017, it's kind of a blur
now, but that's when, um, you know, especially as a new state employee, it was pretty intense going out
to the neighborhood, um, with this emerging contaminant telling people, hey, we wanna sample your well,
it may or may not be impacted with this PFAS stuff that's at this dump, that's down the street from your
house, that's covered in trees, that you may not have known was there. [DEEP BREATH] Um, you know,
going door to door, just having those- those conversations with people and- and not knowing in the
beginning, just thinking, oh, hopefully, you know, then maybe this won't be that bad, maybe- maybe their
wells are at a good depth, and it won't be a problem. I do remember the first house besides the- the
homes to the northeast. Once we started going down House Street, the first door I knocked on, um, who
you've probably interviewed, was Sandy Linstelz' door. She lived right across the street from House
Street, and, um, yeah, I remember meeting her and just from the moment I met her, she was just such a
Page 2
�nice lady, and, um, she was just so nice. She said, "Oh yeah, come on in, take a sample, do whatever
you gotta do," and you know, we sampled. I think there was about 46 houses during that- that initial
sampling in May 2017, or June. It was June by that time, 2017. And I still remember, uh, being in the
office and getting the email results, uh, coming in of the lab, the lab sampling results, and, um, just
seeing, you know, those results coming of some of those houses and the tens of thousands of parts per
trillion in their drinking water well, and it really was at that moment I realized, you know, even being new
to the state, sensing that something just was really wrong, this is not obviously good. Um, it's way above
that 70 parts per trillion, and I'm not a toxicologist, I'm geologist, but just seeing that number I knew that's
obviously not something that is good for people to be drinking, or safe. Um, and so, yeah, then I
remember that afternoon, at that time my supervisor and the health department took—had to take those
results and go to- go to people's houses and- and tell them right away [DEEP BREATH] what their results
were. Um, yeah, so I can keep going on this story. I can go up to where we are current day, um,
[LAUGHTER] if- if you wanted, um, but, yeah, that's kind of just going back to those early days. Um, just
the panic that's involved with projects like this coming from a regulatory standpoint. Um, I- I think of other
states, especially, or really around the world, anywhere, any- any geographic location or government, um,
[LIP SMACK] where, you know, they haven't started testing for PFAS, um, they haven't started looking for
it. Um, you know, I- I just want people to learn from Michigan, and- and learn from what we've
experienced and had to go through to kinda learn how to look for it and address it because, um, people
will find it. We're gonna keep finding it, um, but they need to start looking sooner rather than later, and I'm
sure the residents who have been impacted here in Michigan, at all of our PFAS sites, not even just here
in Kent County, would echo that the sooner that you can let people know that they're drinking something
they're not supposed to be drinking, the better, um, because, you know, now we're learning more about it.
There's kind of no more excuses that people can have. I mean, it's in- it's in the everyday CNN and all the
publications are talking about PFAS. Everyone's talking about PFAS now. Um, we know it's an issue. We
have more science, more health studies to document even lower levels, so our levels are now below 70
parts per trillion here in Michigan, for a number of compounds. Um, and EPA has since updated that 70
parts per trillion right to below one parts per trillion for PFOA or PFOS. Each of those are below one parts
per trillion now. Um, so obviously these are harmful chemicals at very low concentrations. Um, and I think
the more people realize how we're exposed to those every day, not just in our drinking water, through our
everyday commerce goods, through potentially touching things that could be contaminated, dirt, soil, um,
couches, you know, laying around on couches that are Scotchgarded, um, uh, cosmetics, you know,
different, uh, adhesives, different things we're breathing in, even the dust particles that we're ingesting,
you know, it's- it's once you start realizing kind of how ubiquitous and how much PFAS is a part of our,
unfortunately, society now, it really goes to show the- the urgency and the need that is needed to- to keep
addressing PFAS [SNIFFLE] 'cause the more we find out, it just seems like the more we're realizing that
they're not good for us. I mean, they do their job good [CHUCKLE] on the- on the waterproofing and, um,
Page 3
�the chemistry end. Yes, they're a modern marvel and, um, they do their job, but obviously they weren't
made to be inside of us.
Danielle DeVasto: Yeah. Right. Um, I'm wondering if you might, if you're willing to say more about your
experience with PFAS from that kind of regulatory work perspective. You've kind of hinted that, you know,
you're not a toxicologist, you're a geologist, and so I guess I'm just curious if you have anything else that
you might say about how PFAS has kind of been a part of your work experience and- and- and impacting
that.
Karen Vorce: Yeah. So, um, yeah, P—un- understanding, we- I mean, we've just been like sponges
soaking up the data over the last six years now, um, at this site and at others. You know, we have over
240, uh, PFAS sites now in the State of Michigan, identified. Those are locations where we have
groundwater above our cleanup standards. [SNIFFLE] We have samples, um, showing that the
groundwater's contaminated above that. So we have at least 240. I'm sure there's plenty more out there,
we just haven't found yet. Um, I- I think Wolverine's site here in northern Kent County, it does span
approximately 25 square miles of groundwater contamination. It is, I'm pretty sure the largest, um, area of
contamination that we have found to date, and I'm—hopefully it stays that way. Uh, I [CHUCKLE] don't
wanna find any more like this, especially such high concentrations in private drinking water wells. I mean,
we have found, um, concentrations as high as 100,000 parts per trillion in private drinking water wells,
um, which is just pretty- pretty insane to say out loud, um, that to date from just the various conferences,
the various interactions that I've had, that I've heard others having, I haven't heard of anyone having a
higher result than that 100,000 parts per trillion in a drinking water well. I've heard of it in environmental
wells at sites. You know, we have 1,000,000 parts per trillion in groundwater at the tannery site,
[SNIFFLE] but for someone to actually be drinking that, um, is pretty astounding and, um, you know, what
we've learned about the contaminant fate and transport of PFAS, especially in this area, um, has really
helped us be able to address PFAS at other sites faster, uh, get a better understanding because in the
beginning, there's no way when this first started, um, that- that we knew this contaminant plume would
encompass 25 square miles. Like, we were thinking, oh, you know, we have, uh, chlorinated-solvent
plumes, we have petroleum, you know, gasoline-parameter plumes. We're used to dealing with
contamination. That's what we do here in my division. So I would always tell people, you don't wanna see
me 'cause when we show up, that means you have contamination, right, [LAUGHTER] um, unfortunately.
So it's—we- we're used to it, like, okay, we'll start with these close houses and that was really hard for me
personally, when this started in gaining, really having to gain the trust back of the public for- for the
agency, you know, before I even, sometimes, you know, before I was born, obviously when this dumping
occurred, but before I even worked at Eagle, because, um, you know, we—in the beginning of this, we
were handling it like every other site we handled today, not knowing that PFAS traveled as far as it could,
it's so mobile. In the complex geology that we're dealing with here in northern Kent, um, the glacial
geology, and just a lot of the sand and gravel that just acted as a beautiful, unfortunately conduit for
PFAS to travel long distances. You know, in the beginning, if- if what we know now, yes, I—we would've
Page 4
�been expanding those sampling areas from the get-go, making them bigger. But in the beginning we—
when we were taking this, okay, you start on site and then you step out and then you step out more, and
then what happened was, you know, word started going around and then people were mad that, you
know, well, why isn't the state or the health department coming to tell us about this? Why am I finding out
from my neighbors? Or, you know, there were law firms going around, right, knocking on people's doors,
and that really was difficult personally, um, for me to deal with, with people having that anger. You know,
it felt very personal to me, to the department, that we weren't doing our jobs, when at the time we thought
we were doing our jobs based on how other contaminants behave, based on other projects. We had
never, um, dealt with anything like this. So we- I tried to take that and not- and not take it personally
'cause I knew these people, you know, these residents were not mad at Karen Vorce, they- they were
mad at the situation that- that this is- that this has happened and that they have been unknowingly
drinking PFAS and subjecting their families and their children and- and things to this. And so taking that,
um, not taking things personally, but wanting to be an agent of change and an agent of help, to help the
residents was what I started to focus on and really empathizing with them and- and- and putting myself in
their shoes because yes, I was experiencing my own emotional and psychological issues with dealing
with this PFAS and being a first, you know, "emergency responder" to this, which has its own types of
kind of stress, but, you know, I—it was nothing compared to what people who were exposed to this and
drinking it were having to deal with, and I just kept reminding myself of that. Um, and so what we learned,
I think one of the main takeaways from our Wolv—as a regulator from- from Wolverine, a) transparency is
extremely important to everyone, um, especially the folks who are—may or may not be impacted. So
making sure you're, um, transparent and honest, even if you don't know the answers, saying you don't
know the answers and that, you know, this is what we're trying to do. B) Having a robust communication
plan with how you're going to reach out to residents, how you're going to have enough people to go door
to door to let people know, um, using local municipalities, uh, email blasts, using different ways to reach
people through social media, through door hangers, through mailers, multiple ways, 'cause some people
like their information different ways, but really making sure—you're gonna think you're overcommunicating, but you're—but to some people you're still not communicating enough. So until you feel
like you're communicating too much, you're not communicating enough when it comes to sites like this.
Um, so that was something we learned 'cause we really had to up—the state really ups their game, if you
will, on communication and public outreach based on PFAS. It was definitely lacking, um, before this.
[SNIFFLE] The—and th- the residents of this area helped facilitate that change 'cause they- they were the
ones who were able to point it out to, I think the agency, to say, "Hey, you know, I'm mad that I found out
from my neighbor, or I found out from someone knocking on my door,and I didn't find out from the state,"
like, how can we make sure this doesn't happen again? Okay. So that was kind of a humbling and
important learning aspect. Um, another one, especially when we're dealing with emerging contaminants
and I kind of, so I said, um, [LIP SMACK] communication is pooling your resources. So I understand not
every state has the same resources as Michigan, uh, every- every environmental, you know, agency, but
Page 5
�really reaching out to neighboring states or reaching out to other divisions or even the federal
government, putting your head in the sand and saying, you don't have the people to address the problem
isn't going to solve the problem. You need to be vocal that you don't have enough resources, that you are
concerned. That's how you get funding and that's how you get people involved, and you get legislator—
legislative change, and you get more funding in state budgets, and so being- not being afraid to be vocal
about that, to show your "vulnerabilities," as a state agency, I think a lot of agencies are afraid to do that
'cause they don't wanna look like they can't do their job, right. And you don't wanna scare people, like, oh
no, my- my state agency isn't equipped to handle this. Well, no we didn't—of course not, like we didn't
know about PFAS and no one really expects that 25 square miles of somewhere is going to be impacted.
So, you know, you- you- you plan for the worst and hope for the best, but we really need to be—PFAS
showed us we need to be prepared for things like this and don't be afraid to ask for help, and don't act like
you know all the answers 'cause you're—it's gonna be pretty obvious that you don't. So we are- we tried
to be pretty humble and open and honest in the beginning in north Kent, and I think that went a long way
with the residents as well. Um, so those are kind of my three main, um, I guess suggestions to other
regulators. And you know, we learned—we had to change a paradigm, our thinking of how we address
sites of contamination, where before, and this was some of the frustration in the beginning that residents
had, they were like, "Well, why are you starting on the source property with groundwater sampling and
then stepping out, like, why aren't you out sampling all of the wells?" And so we had to explain, well,
normally in order to know where to sample the wells, we need to know, like, groundwater flow at the site,
and we need to know what the source is and, like, what the local geology is, so then we can, like, better
pinpoint, you know where to sample and understand it. And then—but then in the public side and in some
cases depending on the concentrations, you kinda had to go ahead of that, and you can't wait for thatthat HydroGeo investigation to happen. You have to go to the- to the receptors now and sample, and you
may have to sample more than you thought you would, or you may- you may over-sample, but, hey, at
least you're sampling. I'd rather over-sample than not sample enough and- and do it in a timely manner.
So there definitely is an expectation, um, that you prioritize the drinking water response over the science
or the academic or the hydrogeologic, which in some cases is difficult because we need the hydrogeology
to tell us where it's going and where to sample, so you have to use your best professional judgment, you
have to use your—the tools you have, the digital resources, best inferred groundwater direction, right, yet
you gotta kinda think on your feet and- and- and do things that way. So that was obviously difficult to
figure out in the beginning as you're going through this. Um, we had, in the beginning of this, um, we did
call in our incident managers that we have here, our environmental, um, emergency incident managers,
that we have in our Remediation and Redevelopment Division here at Eagle. So each district of RRD,
Remediation and Redevelopment Division, um, has an incident manager. They all came from across the
state [CLICK SOUND] to north Kent, when this started blowing up in 2017, um, to help us because this
was getting to be so big and so large, and there were so many things we needed help. I- it was just me
and one other colleague and my supervisor trying to field all these calls and address all these things, so
Page 6
�we needed help. So we pulled in, we were able to pull in extra resources. Um, making sure you have
open communication between the local, state, and federal health agencies was really crucial and the
local—or the state and federal environmental agencies. So everybody was kind of at the table and
everyone kinda had their lane, if you will. We started figuring out, okay, Eagle, this is your job to- to figure
out where the contamination is, identify wells that need to be sampled, get the contractors out there,
oversee Wolverine doing the work, um, make sure it's being done right, QAQC stuff. And then it was like,
okay, health departments, your job is getting residents the results, explaining what the results mean,
telling them do they need to filter, do they not need a filter? Figuring all that out was a whole thing, too, in
the beginning when this was happening and who's communicating what, right. Um, that was crucial, um,
to make sure that we had the right people communicating the information, who were the toxicologists
epidemiologists, the health folks. Um, and- and then we were staying in our lane doing our thing and—but
we were all working together, um, on the same goal. Um, so that was another huge aspect, 'cause at the
end of the day, we all kinda have our- our little ex—areas of expertise, and it is tempting to kinda go out
and try to boss around other agencies, but- but at the end of the day, you kinda just all start working
together and get over that tur—like, this is my turf, no, this is my turf, and you just start working for your
citizens, that are basically your bosses. Um, [CHUCKLE] that's what—who I work for, right, the taxpayers.
So, um, that was a learning experience, and, um, you know, now- now I- I- I know who to contact if- if I
have issues, you know, the health—local and state health were, like, you know, really close and EPA.
Like, we're kind of all allies now from having gone through this, um, helping each other. It's not a local
versus state versus federal. It's not us versus them. That can hap—I- I don't know if the general public
knows that, but that- that can happen, you know, Eagles get in the way, um, you know, like, oh, the state
has this handled, we don't need the fed help, or, you know, local people will be like, "Oh, the local county
has us. We don't need the state's help," you know, so kinda getting in over that, those- those, um, those,
you know, can- can be a humbling [CHUCKLE] experience for- for other, I'm sure states and both, they
experienced similar things. Um, but I would say, you know- you know, this was, this has been—I- I call
this my baby, my- my site, since I started at the state. I'm still heavily involved. I—we did hire a new, you
know, project, uh, project manager [SNIFFLE] since I've transitioned into district supervisor work, um, but,
you know, people from the beginning told me this is a once in a career type of issue or- or site or- or
experience. When I first started, I didn't really realize that. I thought, Oh, this is- this is its normal to work,
you know, have- have- have- have public meetings four nights a week and work till nine at night, and, you
know, start the day again at seven a.m., and be doing all this crazy stuff and- and- and be suing multibillion dollar companies and having, you know, mediation and- and drafting consent decrees, and, well,
no, that's not normal, but, um, you know, I wouldn't trade it for anything. I- I do believe, um, that God had
me come to west Michigan, for a reason, um, that I was given north Kent, for a reason. I felt very underqualified in the beginning, uh, you know, a new PM, a newbie, um, kinda had that imposter syndrome, but
as- as time went on, I realized that, hey, you know, I have a whole department, I have colleagues, it's not
just me doing this, it's us, it's a team, everyone has their part, and I just really started focusing on the
Page 7
�people and the outreach and the empathy and caring for, you know, the residents. Um, and I think at the
end, you know, just focusing on your strengths, you don't need to know everything as a regulator. You
have resources. You have people and experts to rely on. That was also a, um, [SNIFFLE] something I
learned early on in this project.
Danielle DeVasto: What a way to start, huh?
Karen Vorce: Yes. [LAUGHTER]
Danielle DeVasto: It's really that- that, like, tested by fire and—
Karen Vorce: Yes.
Danielle DeVasto: —hopefully it is truly a once-in-a-career situation.
Karen Vorce: Yes, I hope so.
Danielle DeVasto: Um, maybe looking forward then, what kinds of concerns do you have about PFAS
contamination, moving forward?
Karen Vorce: Yeah. Um, definitely I have concerns. Um, you know, as- as a mother now, when I started
this project, I wasn't a mom, and, you know, went through this and- and now I- I have a one and a half
year old, um, so I can empathize, uh, a lot better, too, with- with folks who had children who have been
affected by contamination, you know, imagining my son drinking it or- or having been nursed on, you
know if the mother was ingesting it- it tran- transmisses through- through breast milk and when the baby's
developing and- and things like that. So I really worry. I really am just concerned, you know, especially
always thinking ahead to the next generation, how can we reduce exposure to them? Um, and I'm really
excited to see some states now, um, are banning certain products with PFAS, certain food- food
packaging, um, you know, certain—I- I swear I read somewhere certain consumer goods won't be—
clothing won't be allowed to have PFAS in it with—and something in New York City, I have to dig into that
more. Um, you know, the- the more we can eliminate when we really don't need it, if we really don't need
something to be waterproof or to have specifically these compounds, these PFAS compounds in it, let's
eliminate it. Like we don't need it in dental floss. I'm pretty sure I can still use dental floss without having
PFAS in it. I'll be fine with it, even if it's a little bit stickier, I don't know. [CHUCKLE] Like, um, you know,
kind of just- just re-thinking our- our, um, 'cause- 'cause I understand, the manufacturers play their part,
right. The- the- the capitalistic selling of things, it- it all plays its part, but at the end of the day, consumers
have power, too. We have a lot of power, um, as- as consumers, and we need to be vocal with our dollars
and what companies we're supporting and with our- with our legislators of what kind of legislation we
wanna see in our states to foster positive change of prohibiting, you know, these products from coming
into our state that eventually is gonna end up in our landfill, right, um, and end up in our environment. So
I'm really excited to see the legislation and policies starting to get put in place little by little. Um, I know it'll
be a long challenge, but, um, that- that is kind of a positive light. In- in the more health studies that we
have done right now, there is a multi-site health- PFAS health study happening in Michigan, north Kent's
involved. There's a- another site in south, uh, southwest Michigan, involved, um, and other state—other
sites across the country in that as well to better understand the health, um, and document the health
Page 8
�effects of exposure to PFAS and at what levels, what may you see certain adverse effects of, you know,
anything from cancer to hi- high cholesterol to, um, preeclampsia, uh, things- things of those nature. So
really getting a better understanding of that, I think is crucial, too, so, um, we can just spread that
knowledge, so people can make informed decisions. So we know now Teflon pans with PFOA and
others, some other PFAS compounds, not a good idea. So let's let consumers know that, so they can
then use stainless steel or alum— you know, what different types of pans. Yes, it may not be as great for
eggs, but, you know, you can- you can deal with a little bit of eggs sticking to your pan if you don't wanna
eat PFAS, right? Um, you know, letting people make—being informed to make decisions about how
much—at least having some control over how much PFAS they're being exposed to. I just bought a new
couch for the first time 'cause I've been using hand-me-downs from family for a number of years. First
question, is this Scotchgarded? Like, please, I do not wanna buy a couch that has Scotchgard or any
stain-resistant treatment on it. No, it wasn't. Oh, and it's filled with recycled, um, [LIP SMACK] pieces of
couches that didn't work or, you know, the filling from other—like it's recycled material on the inside. So
that's even better. Cool. Okay. So making, like, decisions like that to- to eliminate, you know, your
furniture, sheets, you know, clothes that really don't need to be waterproof, you know, do you really need
GORE-TEX or, you know, that water repellency on those. Little decisions like that, um, but also making
sure your representatives in your, um, states, your federal representatives, understand that you want, um,
policy and laws that protect citizens from exposure to these that make- make us aware when things—
when PFAS is in- in products. Like, trying to know all the different trade names is really difficult. I'll even
try to read labels, and I'm like, I can't even tell if this is a PFAS, like, what is this, I don't know. So having
better labeling, you know, there- there's things that can be done that I think, um, will start happening that
are going to at least make things a little bit better for the next generation, um, so we can at least learn
something from- from all of this, right? That's- that's kind of what we need to do as our responsibility, um,
with- with having this knowledge. [SNIFFLE]
Danielle DeVasto: And gives concrete things that we can do, instead of—
Karen Vorce: Yes.
Danielle DeVasto: —you know, as you pointed out, sometimes this is pretty overwhelming and—
Karen Vorce: Mm-hmm.
Danielle DeVasto: —widespread, far more complicated than we imagine, but—
Karen Vorce: Yes. Little things we can- we can- we can try to do to make change. [SNIFFLE]
Danielle DeVasto: So before we wrap up, Karen, is there anything else that you'd like to add that we
haven't touched on today or anything you'd like to go back to and say more about?
Karen Vorce: Hmm. I'm sure there is. I could definitely talk all day [LAUGHTER] about- about PFAS and
north Kent, and just the experience and, um, and, uh, you know, the good and the bad 'cause as- as
much, you know, sadness and, um, obviously harm that this contamination, um, has caused the residents
in Kent County. [SNIFFLE] Um, you know, I don't- I don't let that over-shadow the, um, the good that's
actually come out of this, in that I've met a lot of people that I never would've met, friendships have been
Page 9
�made, um, being able to- to feel at the end of the day that you're making a difference, um, and- and
helping people, um, and- and passing that on to others. It- it really feels like the citizens here have also,
you know, they've really stepped up to be, like, leaders in- in this fight against PFAS, um, to- to talk to
other states, to other affected communities, and seeing that, um, just has been really inspiring as well,
just- just people knowing, like, you don't have to be in a position of authority. You don't have to just—you
don't have to be working for an agency or- or whatever to- to be teaching people about PFAS or about
your experience. Like, anyone can- can talk to people, you know, just even it—it doesn't matter what your
day job is, right. If- if you've, you know, been ex—if you've been exposed to PFAS and especially folks in
Kent County who have been through this, um, you know, I think it's invaluable for them to kinda reach out
and- and be there for- for the other people who are going through this, um, in other communities here in
Michigan. So that's- that's been pretty amazing to see, [SNIFFLE] um, to see that happen as well. Um,
and I think, you know, it's always important for- for us to have our lessons learned, to learn from them, to
admit when- when things could have been done differently, you know, even- even industry, right? We had
industry standards and practices back in the 1940s, and '50s, that were vastly different than what we
have today, right, and so just, you know, admitting that, understanding that, and trying to address that.
It's- it's- it's not necessarily in all cases, like, I gotcha, like, ooh, I'm gonna- I'm gonna get those- those evil
corporations, right? It- it's about, okay, I understand, I totally get it. Things were different back in the day,
right, but if we know things were different, and we know there was contamination in our waste streams,
companies do have—should be thinking about their historic operations and where there could be other
"House Street Dumps." I know—you know, anyone listening to this to who may be a CEO of a company,
you know, [CHUCKLE] or know a CEO who runs a company and- and, you know, you really need to look
at- look at your company and your heart to say, hey, are- are there skeletons in the closet that I need to
address, because you're gonna be living with that for the rest of your life, knowing that you ignored
something and potentially hundreds of people have been impacted because of that. So that's also kind of
a warning [CHUCKLE] that I'll give- give to folks, um, to, hey, just- just be- just be honest. We're- we're
not dumb. People who aren't in your company, we can see through things. We- we know, and the more
proactive you're going to be, the more people are gonna wanna work with you, the more collaboration
you're gonna get, and, you know, you could really turn this into something that, um, doesn't have to be,
you know, a fight, um, to get things done. So that- that's something I'll- I'll just throw out there as well.
Danielle DeVasto: I mean, throughout the—this conversation, that theme of relationship seems to
kinda—
Karen Vorce: Mmm.
Danielle DeVasto: —keep cropping up in your story in different ways, the different kinds of relationships
that you can or have, or could build—
Karen Vorce: Yep.
Danielle DeVasto: —seems really important.
Karen Vorce: Definitely. That's a good point. [CHUCKLE]
Page 10
�Danielle DeVasto: Well, thank you so much, Karen, for taking the time to share your story today.
Karen Vorce: Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. And thanks for doing this project.
Page 11
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09a30ba6d22bc9110d3e7c2a8b0c03ef.mp4
7b2b542d78ca331a97df008e0d95cb99
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Living with PFAS Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Devasto, Danielle
Description
An account of the resource
The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS.
Date
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2021
Source
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Living with PFAS (project)
Rights
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In copyright
Subject
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Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
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DC-11
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video/mp4
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audio/mp3
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Text
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eng
Oral History
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Dublin Core
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Identifier
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PFAS0035
Creator
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Vorce, Karen
Date
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2022-01-13
Title
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Karen Vorce, 2022 (Interview video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Karen Vorce is a geologist who lives in Walker, Michigan and works for the Michigan Department of Environment, Great Lakes, and Energy in the Remediation Redevelopment Division. In this interview, Karen discusses her work with PFAS contamination sites in Kent County, as well as how her concern over PFAS have impacted her family and personal decisions.
Contributor
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DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer)
Subject
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Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
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Living with PFAS (project)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a>
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video/mp4
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d59fd54e489b0399681dba195f104334.pdf
a8682d79f16cd6d4b12aaaa5df014196
PDF Text
Text
Living with PFAS
Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto
Interviewee: Alan Eberlein
Date of Interview: 2022-11-29
Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, November 29, 2022, I have the pleasure of chatting
[BANG SOUND] with Al Eberlein. Hi, Al.
Al Eberlein: Hello.
Danielle DeVasto: Thank you for having me over to your house today. Um, Al, can you tell me where
you're from, [CLICK SOUND] and, um, let's start with that. Where are you from?
Al Eberlein: Right here in Rockford, born and raised.
Danielle DeVasto: All right. So you've been here a long time.
Al Eberlein: Yep. I grew up as a child on Myers Lake and went to Rockford Public Schools and then
resided within a couple miles of town, or in town, my entire life.
Danielle DeVasto: That's truly something. As someone who's moved around a lot, I wish that I could—
Al Eberlein: Which is more the norm now than not.
Danielle DeVasto: Unfortunately, yeah. Um, Al, would you tell me a story about your experience with
PFAS or with PFAS in your community, please?
Al Eberlein: Well, it's a funny thing because it's an unfolding story, right? And I lived through it, not
knowing I was living through it for many years. Like I said, uh, went to Rockford schools, went to the
junior high school and the high school here. Um, lived around, uh, Rockford, uh, for a number of years.
Um, uh, my first home was a- a mobile homesite, uh, at Algoma Estates, [CLEARING THROAT] which I
lived with several years after I was married in 1980, with my wife, Lori, and, um, as we were discussing
earlier, uh, lo and behold in future years, I found out—and we always knew that it was something not
quite right about the water there, uh, but we were close to the 12-mile dump because Algoma's off of 13
mile, and the 12-mile dump was, you know, backed up to that. And, um, [LIP SMACK] so I'm sure that we
were probably drinking water that wasn't too great then. And, uh, we had our, uh, first child, um, there, uh,
when we lived in Algoma Estates, Matthew, uh, in 1982. And, um, it was a- it was, um, [LIP SMACK] a
strange birth. Matthew was, uh, born with what they described as immature lung- lung syndrome that you
nor- normally don't experience unless a child is, like, two months early. His lungs were that bad or worse,
but Matthew was full term. He was almost eight-pound baby, and they said they never had seen that
before. Um, so, consequently, he almost died. Um, he was in neonatal unit in Grand Rapids, for two
weeks and, um, he did pink up right away. For hours and hours after he was born, he was purple and, uh,
he pulled out of it miraculously, um, [LIP SMACK] but consequently, uh, it left him with a lot of problems.
He had episodes of schizophrenia, uh, odd, uh, feelings in his body, like his spirit was half out of his body.
Um, uh, we tried some therapy with, uh, Wellbutrin and, um, [NOISE] Ritalin to try to help him, uh, control
his thoughts, but they didn't work for him. Um, so anyhow, uh, they barely got him—kept him mainstream
through, uh, grade school, and once he was junior high, and after, he ended up in special ed and
unfortunately kids like Matthew, they fall through the cracks. They're not bad enough to be, you know,
Page 1
�sent off to Kenosha, or something, but they're—they try to mainstream 'em, and they have a couple hours
in special ed and put 'em in a regular class, and they're, you know, how children can be cruel and- and it
was a terrible experience. Um, he was a very melancholy child and, uh—because by the time he got to
high school, uh, he started self-medicating with alcohol, dropped outta school, and we didn't even keep
alcohol in our house, but he sought out his own medication. And, um, consequently, he died at 24 years
old, uh, from alcoholism. Well, like I say, he was born in, uh, '82. In 1986, we tried again for a child, uh,
Christopher. And so we moved back into town in—before he was born—
Danielle DeVasto: Into Rockford?
Al Eberlein: — into Rockford, on Lewis Street, on the Wolverine plat, north of town, in an older home,
and so that my wife could afford to stay home with the baby. And so consequently, Christopher was born
a little early, not a lot, a little, and he was rather small birth weight, he's—but not terrible. He was about
six pounds, and they thought he was normal at the- uh, at the moment he was born, but it quickly became
apparent that he was not thriving, and they couldn't figure it out. Finally, after about a month or so, a
geneticist in Grand Rapids, said, "Um, [CLICK SOUND] I can't tell you what's wrong with your son, but I'm
heavily suspicioning that there's something wrong with him, genetically. Um, I think you should go to
Chicago, uh, Children's Hospital." So we took Christopher down there five different times, and they did
studies, and actually they did workups on Christopher. Uh, he's actually in a journal someplace. They
took, uh, pictures of him, and he was very unusual and the best determination that they could come up
with is they said, "Well, he sort of like neonatal renoleukodystrophy," and I go, what in the world is that?
And they said, "Well, that's [CLICK SOUND] where the protozoa in the cell structure is low, and the ones
that are there are deformed." So what does that mean? Well, the body does not have a good capability of
dealing with heavy metals, like, uh, copper and so forth. And so as the months went by, all this kinda built
up in his brain and damaged his brain. He lost his eyesight and, uh, he didn't thrive. He didn't get nutrition
out of food well, and, um, they said he would only live two months, but, um, we loved him and took care of
him, ended up having to feed him with a stomach tube, and we kept him alive for two years and two
months, and gave him the best life that we could give him. But I remember them saying this towards the
end of- of the time that we went to Chicago, at the Children's Hospital, and they said, "You know, there's
several different kinds," that they had, uh, described at the time of- of that disease, but they said,
"Christopher's really not like any of them, he's like his own thing." There again, both with Matthew and
with Christopher, nothing remotely like this in my wife's family history, our family history. This was just
crazy stuff out of the blue. So [SIGH] my daughter, Sarah, was born in 1992, and, uh, she was, uh, it
seemed to be a normal pregnancy, and then all of a sudden my wife started having trouble and, uh,
Sarah came, uh, two months and two weeks early. And, um, anyhow, trying to keep a long story shorter,
[CHUCKLE] um, we, uh, you know, we, of course we were worried about these other things and, um, but I
had a month old. They said, "Well, you know," they- they were worried about the Christopher disease, the
neonatal renoleukodystrophy, but it- it didn't seem to, uh, manifest itself. And we don't know why she was
born early. We don't know why she was red when she came out, but, um, she seems to be doing better
Page 2
�now. So Sarah grew into a nice, healthy, young lady and, um, she got married at 21, and shortly
thereafter, um, she got pregnant for my granddaughter. Well, my granddaughter's, uh, pregnancy seemed
to be normal, and, um, along about six or seven months pregnant, my daughter said, "Dad," she goes,
"Something's wrong. I'm just profoundly tired." And of course they checked out her iron and all the-, you
know, the normal things, and, "We can't find anything wrong and your blood pressure's okay, you know,
we just, you know, probably some people just get more tired than others, you know, during." She goes,
"But dad," she says, "They're not listening to me. This is profound. I can hardly keep my eyes open." Lo
and behold, the day that her water broke, and she went in for labor, she started hemorrhaging, and I
mean, profuse blood loss. And she actually almost died twice, and they were pumping fluids into her,
plasma, trying to keep her alive. And, uh, she basically died twice, and it was, uh, a rare form of, uh,
HELLP syndrome. There again, no sign of it, neither side of the family. And, um, [CLICK SOUND] she
actually saw her gr—, uh, deceased grandfather in the room, smiling at her, waiting for her to come to
heaven with her- with him, but they pulled her through. And by-by golly, they saved my granddaughter,
and they said for that to happen right at birth, it's almost very unlikely that both of 'em were to live.They
said usually if you can save one or the other, [CHIME SOUND] you've done—you've had a good day, and
they saved them both. My daughter was very weak. It took her over a year to get back on her feet. Uh,
psychologically it did something to her because she still gets tired. I think it's mental. I think it's mentally
tired. Um, it- it- it really goes deep into you. So anyhow, my granddaughter, we thought she was perfect,
you know, beautiful little girl, and, um, went in for a two-month checkup, and they says, "You need to see
a specialist. Something is wrong with her." And you know, here, my first son, second son, my daughter,
and now my granddaughter, oh, what's wrong? "Well, we think she's not seeing good, and you need to
see a specialist." Well, unfortunately my son-in-law was in the Navy, and he said, "Well, we're about
ready to move." And my daughter, he was gonna deploy outta San Diego, and my daughter was coming
back here with my granddaughter, uh, while he deployed for six months. [SNEEZE] Well, God bless
Helen DeVos Hospital because they got down to brass tacks and figured it out quite quickly. What they
missed is that she had cataracts in her eyes, but they weren't normal, I say_ normal cataracts that are
more visible on the outside of the eye. These were deep with inside the eye. And they said it was rather
unusual. And, uh, so they operated on her, got the cataracts out, and here she's just a lit—by this time, I
think Natalie was five months old, and, it's so hard to have, when children to have to have operations right
off the bat, it's—and she, you know, suffered through that. And then they, [CLEAR THROAT] she had
these really thick glasses that we tried to put on her, and, um, also we had to force contacts into her eyes
so that she could have enough imagery, you know, but still be fuzzy, but that she could—her mind could
develop. And, um, that got actually very arduous 'cause by six, seven months old, she could fight back,
and I actually had to leave the house because she would scream and fight not to have those contacts
forced in her eyes. Well, they can't put lenses in a little baby's eyes right away, 'cause the eyes are too
small. And they said, "We would like to wait at least till six, five, six years old." [NOTIFICATION SOUND]
Excuse me, we will delay that message.
Page 3
�Danielle DeVasto: Would you like me to pause?
Al Eberlein: That's uh, that was my daughter. [LAUGHTER] She must have knew I was talking about her.
Danielle DeVasto: She must have felt it. [LAUGHTER]
Al Eberlein: So consequently uh, they—we had to wait till she was over two years old to put lenses in.
So my beautiful little granddaughter, so she ended up having six surgeries all together. And they put the
lenses in finally, and oh, what a joyous day that was, and the next day. All of a sudden, my granddaughter
discovered going outside and said, "Oh, grandpa, look at the clouds," and she could see relatively clearly
for the first time. And- and uh, we were so happy and overjoyed for her after all the torment she went
through, and we could see her starting to regress. We could see her starting to act like she did before,
when she didn't see good and straining her eyes. And so we called up and said, "Well, you better bring
her back in." And so we took her back in and, um, they said, "Oh, we got bad news. Her eyes are
rejecting the implants." And I said, I thought you said this, eyes, that this material- material you use, that
the body doesn't reject, and they says, "For some reason, hers is." So they had to take the- the, uh,
implanted lenses back out. And that was one of the worst days of my life, right up there with my two sons
dying. And sh—I wheeled her out to the car, and she balled all the way out going, "Grandpa, I can't see, I
can't see." And I go, oh honey, I says, we're gonna fix it, hoping that we could. Well, we—the doctors had
a form online just to see if any other eye doctor in the nation, and even other countries, had any
suggestions because Helen DeVos had run out of ideas, and that's a bad place to be. So we had
everybody praying. [LIP SMACK] One man, I'd like to meet him someday, I'd like to know who he was,
one man responded, and he said, "I had a- an adult patient once that had that exact thing happen." And
this was one particular, really strong steroid, he says that worked for her. He said, "I've never used it on a
child," but he says, "You don't have anything to lose." So we did it, and by golly, it worked. And so she's
been progressing. She has to come every six months and be checked out, but from that second set of
lenses, um, her- her eyesight has held and uh, you know, every time she gets checked though, you know,
we've had so much trouble and turmoil that you always kinda tighten up a little bit, you know, and they
come back and say, "Oh, her eyesight's even a little bit better," and I go, oh, thank God, you know. But,
yeah, so my experience, you know, is—in our life is two sons with strange diseases that died, my
daughter that almost died, and her daughter that almost died and almost lost her eyesight. So to find
out—so like I said, it's like an unfolding story, right? We—I lived through all this when we know that in the
'70s and '80s, and so forth, that the PFAS was being dispersed all over. And one thing that doesn't get
talked a lot about, this river out here, the whole bed of that river that I—you dig down in that mud, and I'll
guarantee it's got layers of PFAS in it. Our water, city water here in Rockford that, well, there's about
4,500 of us now that live here, they were getting all the city water out of the Rockford Rogue River. Who's
talking about that? The water that I drank in high school and junior high school, and that I drank living all
the decades that I lived here in town. Yeah, it was a horrible thing they did, burying it out in the
countryside, and I have relatives that got poisoned by that. But in hindsight, and working at Wolverine
Page 4
�Worldwide for 31 years and seeing how they used that strike to try to close the tannery down, I believe
was nefarious that they wanted to cover up their sin.
Danielle DeVasto: Can you—do you want to say anything more about the strike?
Al Eberlein: About the strike?
Danielle DeVasto: Yeah.
Al Eberlein: Yeah.
Danielle DeVasto: Or your experience at Wolverine?
Al Eberlein: Well, my grandfather worked—my great-grandfather worked at Wolverine for 54 years.
Nobody ever worked there longer than him. He was hired by Otto Krause back in 1903, when it was
family own. And you know how it was back in these—that—those days of small towns and, you know,
Wolverine was a big business, see, I mean even then for a small town, and, um, my grandfather went to
work there at 16 years old. You know, times were hard back then. There wasn't safety nets, you know,
and, um, people were glad to have a good job. He could walk to work. He lived on Main Street. His
grandson, my cousin, still lives in the same house that my great-grandfather lived in. And, um, when
times were hard, um, uh, in- during the depression, uh, several times Otto Krause came and said, 'Boys,
I- I don't have money for payroll," but he says, uh, he said, "If you stick with me," he says, "I'll gladly pay
ya in company stock." And my grandfather held onto that stock his whole life, and it divided. And, uh, my
grandmother inherited a portion of it, and she gave it to all of us, her grandkids, that came from my greatgrandfather. You know, it was, like, a heritage. And you felt good about—we felt good about Wolverine
back in those days, you know, in the old days. And, um, geez, half my relatives worked at the company.
You know, it was a stepping stone company that a lot of people—my mother worked there in the office for
a year or two, you know, to help buy a new car. You know, it was nice to have a big company that, you
know, could facilitate and help out the local community, and everybody always felt good about it. And, uh,
when I first started working there, uh, in the early '70s, um, there was still a—Wolverine was corporate by
then. It went corporate, I believe in the '50s. And—but there was still, you know, oldtimers that- that
worked there. There was—I remember one old guy that remembered my great-grandfather, you know,
'cause my grandfather worked till 1957, from '03. I started working there in- in '72, and I worked there 31
years, but I- I remember, oh, I remember your grandpa, Platton, you know, and- and just that continuity,
you know, of community and the work and the pride that our little town, you know, is known worldwide for
Hush Puppy shoes. And I personally—I was the dye maker. I- I made, uh, [SNIFFLE] I made dyes that
made shoes for, uh, Shaquille O'Neal. [LAUGHTER] You know, hi- his personal loafers, you know, and I
thought, you know, I made, uh, I made running shoes when- when we owned Brook's, uh, Running Shoe.
I made running shoes for Greg Myers, you know, and- and you had pride in that, in- in our little town, you
know, that all this wonderful stuff coming out of our little town and from my perspective, the way that, and
this is my opinion, you know, this is the way I perceive it, but that because of PFAS and corporate greed,
that they didn't have any problem covering it up, even though it was still currently poisoning people. When
3M told Wolverine in the '90s, that this stuff causes cancer and childhood, uh, diseases and maladies,
Page 5
�okay, now I just gave you my testimony about all the childhood maladies that me and my sisters and my
brother, who never had any children, he did end up adopting, uh, boy, that's a lot of damage. And for
them, that's at the point in the late '90s, where I have a bone to pick with Wolverine Worldwide because
they had to be forced to make penance for what they did to the people out in the countryside. How about
people like me that lived in this town most of my life in or around the town and all of my—two of my sons
are in heaven. You know, I got a—my daughter almost died and had extreme trouble. My granddaughter
almost was blind. I mean, I could say if I wanted to be bitter person, I could say you owe me at least a
million dollars. I know I'll never get—that would just be a token. That would be a token, you know? But,
no, I'll tell you the strike was—so what happened. You see all this was happening at the same time. 3M
tells Wolverine Worldwide, oh yeah, you know that stuff's bad. So what do you do? Did you come clean?
No, you tried to cover it up. That's what you tried to do. And I believe with all my heart and that's why, you
know, there's times in life I- I didn't like my career, I loved my career. I loved the people I worked with, you
know, and you made my life a living hell by your corruptness, you know. And like they always say, even,
like, with Watergate, the coverup is even worse. If you said, "Oh, we didn't know back in the '70s, and
'80s, that this Scotchgard and all this stuff was so bad, oh, geez, you know, and that we went out to
farmer John and paid him 40 bucks or whatever to dump it in his back acres," you know, "Oh, what can
we do to, what can we do to make it right?" No, you didn't care about making it right. You cared about
covering up your sin. They recorded their 12th record profit that year that they drove us out on strike. And
why do I say drive us out on strike? Because they came to us with a proposal. They wanted to take a
dollar an hour away from us across the board, a dollar an hour. Well, listen folks, I was their dye maker.
I'd been their dye maker for 31 years, saving all their shows for 'em and everything, and I never made- I
never made $18 an hour. So it wasn't that we were so greatly paid, and I'll tell you what, those guys down
there, you know, I don't know what the average wage was, but I know a lot of those guys, their base pay
was, you know, $13, $14 an hour, and if they worked real hard in that stinky place that, you know, they
could make 125% sometimes on piece rate, but they worked hard in horrible conditions, horrible
conditions. And they want to take a dollar an hour away from us while they were posting their 12th record
quarter in a row. [BANG SOUND] Do you see how egregious that is? Well, geez, who would do
something like that? Who- who would risk throwing away people? I- I, like I said, 31 years, that was on
the- the small side of things. Man- many of those guys had 38, 40, 42 years. One guy had 45 years in
there as a loyal employee, and they were throwing us away like yesterday's news. Who would do
something like that? Oh, yeah, I can see a motive. Somebody that has a greater sin, they're trying to
cover up, that's who would do something like that. That's exactly who would [BANG SOUND] do
something like that. And you know, back then [SNIFFLE] we didn't- we didn't understand the PFAS thing
in- in 2003. We didn't really understand what was going on yet, but we knew just by our innate common
sense that something was terribly wrong. Something was terribly, terribly wrong. And so we stayed out on
strike and I think we kinda surprised them. And we thought, well maybe when they see we've been out for
five or six weeks, and of course, you know, Wolverine's a large company and that's gonna start hurting,
Page 6
�hurt- hurt the profit, right? They still didn't care. I remember hearing they- they hired, uh, replacement
workers. They said, yeah, we don't need you guys. And they- they kept going all through the summer and
into the early fall. Well, we heard news that, um, they received back, I believe, now don't take this
verbatim, but I think it was around 170,000 to 180,000 pair of boots, boots or shoes, because of inferior
leather, because the replacement workers were not paying 00:27:42 ___________. Did they end the
strike there? Did they try to come back to us and say, okay, okay, forget that taking a dollar an hour away,
we'll give everybody, uh, 50 cents and next year you get a quarter, and we'll keep everybody happy? No.
No, they were bald face as ever. No, not dealing with you. Went all the way past Christmas. And they
came the day after Christmas and said, "Well, we'll take a third or so of you back." It'd give you, it was a
paltry amount, I forget, 25, 35 cents, but the rest of you are gone, [NOISE] 'cause they still [BANG
SOUND] wanted—had it in mind, they wanted to close that place down. I can't believe anything else. It's
the only thing at that point. Now this is like six, seven months out on strike, and uh, they still wanted to get
rid of us. And I knew I was gone 'cause at that point I'd done—I did an interview with a Christian, uh, radio
station, and I did an interview with TV8 and I says, uh, how much is a man's life worth, 'cause most of
these people, including myself, gave the best years of their life to that place, and they were throwing us
away like yesterday's newspaper. I said, stark fact, while they were making record profit, there again, who
would do such a thing? Hmm, somebody covering up a very large sin, I would propose. So anyhow, yeah,
we had people die. So there, again, I believe they were covering up their sin. They wanted to sh—they
wanted to get us—rid of us quite quickly, I believe. Uh, they wasn't counting on us, um, putting up such a
fight. Of course, that got—that garnered, uh, attention from the powers that be, and because it was so
egregious, the- the ones such as myself that they let go, and they finally did call us back, uh, long about
the end of January, end of February, um, they- the people they let go, they had to, uh, either give a year
of, uh, college or pay half of our wages at a new job for a year to help get us hired 'cause, you know, most
of us were older guys. You know, I mean it- it's a sad fact, you know, there's nowhere in writing,
especially nowadays, if things change so fast now in technology. You're over 50, and you can hardly get
an interview, you know, especially then, things were pretty slow. So anyhow, a lot of us, uh, you know,
got jobs elsewhere, and they took some of the guys back, and they worked them for, I don't know, I- I
think around 2005, or thereabouts, they finally closed it down for good. And I did not get anything 'cause I
was long gone by then, but I heard, and I felt a little bit good about this because we had gotten enough.
We got enough sunlight shined on their darkness that they had, you know, people were watching them at
this point, and I believe that the average person got $17,000 severance pay to, you know, to go
somewhere else, and they had to help 'em out. Um, I was already at another, uh- uh, job shop, so I did
not get any of those benefits, but, uh, [LIP SMACK] anyhow, so that all happened and then just about that
time it starts being un- unveiled of the PFAS problem. And it became more and more apparent what had
happened and that they were covering up this horrible sin of burying this stuff around. Oh, come to find
out they had buried stuff right by the plant. Uh, I had—and afterwards, you know, in hindsight, now you
start looking back and putting the little pieces of the jig pu- jigsaw puzzle together. I had a very dear friend
Page 7
�of mine that used to live right next to the tannery, and he says, "Oh yeah, there was a low area there, and
they were throwing all their hides right in there to fill up the low area, and then once it got full, they, you
know, threw some dirt over it and covered it up." Well, that's one of the, you know, egregious areas that
have been, you know, dug up and taken out of there. But that river is loaded with PFAS, from that plant
sitting there. They said that- that 15 acres that sits down there now, where, you know, they quickly, you
know, tore the tannery down, they were trying to, they almost had a deal going.They were going to try to
build a, um, [LIP SMACK] a, uh, hotel there, if you can imagine. Oh, a lovely hotel on the river, you know?
Quick, cover up our PFAS, but that dirt, there's areas in there that is one of the top toxic sites in the whole
country for PFAS, and it's still sitting there. Now they've done some remediation along the river, but it's
very possible with the way these people operated over the years that there could be other spots in that
river, and I'll guarantee you, out there, how much PFAS over all those years do you think is lying in the
muck of that river? I wouldn't eat one fish out of that river. I want—I had people park behind my house
here in- in Pickett Park, and catching salmon and trout out there all the time, and I almost feel like I
should tell 'em, I won't eat that stuff. That river's loaded with PFAS. And if you go down the river a little bit
farther, the Rockford Paper Mill used to pump stuff. I can remember going behind the Rockford Paper Mill
in- in, uh, the '70s, when I was in junior high school, and there's a pipe about that big, that was pumping
red effluent right out into the river, you know. [NOISE] So we kinda got it at both ends that way, but I
wouldn't eat- I wouldn't eat anything out of that river, you know. So, but let's come back to Rockford. So
our water, until all this was coming out, our strike and, uh, the news of, uh, oh, there's a problem with
PFAS in the early 2000s, well, what about all the people, the thousands of people that lived in the city all
this year, and you fed us PFAS water. How about that? How about people like me that lost two sons andand all my families had childhood maladies, how's about that? [BANG SOUND] Where's the remediation
for that? It would be real easy to be real bitter, but, you know, [SNIFFLE] time does heal to a point, and
you have to go on living, right, and- and you can't live happily as a bitter person, but there is right and
wrong. And I don't think Wolverine Worldwide has, by any means, has gotten to the end of their penance
for what they did. And especially that they chose to do a cover-up and to throw people away that made
their company for 'em because they wanted to cover up a sin. Well, that's a nice way to treat people that
you've been poisoning for 40 years. See, but you have to go on. And so I just, you know, I thank God for
people like you, for people like, no seriously, people like, uh, Lynn McIntyre, that actually care about
people, like Wolverine used to. Oh, yeah, I got some real good memories of Wolverine. I remember when
I first started working there and Tom Gleason would come down, and he wanted anybody that wanted to
shake his hand. He'd look you right in the eyes, and,"Thank you for your service, you know, we truly need
you around here," and maybe even have a cookie or a little holiday drink with you. It used to—it was like
the last vestige of- of a good age. And somewhere in, when we started sending all of our work over to
China, and we became a human resource, it became less and less. And it always happens by shades,
right, less personable, a little less personable, and now all you are is a resource to throw you away like
yesterday's news. And that's the way—it's a bitter pill. I definitely gave Wolverine the best, you know,
Page 8
�my—I say, best years, I— that's not totally true 'cause you- you do think, you hope that you gained some
wisdom, and, you know, and- and I did home care for 10 years and that was a wonderful time in my life.
And I'm glad I did that 'cause it actually was a salvation for me because it really put some, uh, a deeper
meaning back into my life and, uh, really did a lot of healing for how my career at Wolverine ended, with
them trying to cover up their sin, you know, but uh, yeah, PFAS has done a lot of damage physically,
probably mentally, to a lot of people and so on and so forth, but when companies like Wolverine go into
cover-up mode, the mental and spiritual damage that they've done to people, you know, some people
don't have the wherewithal to come back, and I think about those people often. I think I- I know probably a
lot of 'em probably aren't even alive anymore. I- I know that, uh, yeah, there's several people I- I
personally knew. There was a maintenance man down there that died from cancer at 42 years old. My
friend's dad was having back problems, and he worked down there in the tannery, and [BANG SOUND]
so he retired early at 54, only to find out, yeah, his back problems was he was loaded with cancer. And I
think that had been repeated with maladies and cancer, people that worked down there over and over
again, you know, and uh, so I just hope at some point, you know, we keep moving into the future, right,
and then you get into, if I went up to Wolverine now there's probably not even anybody up there that I—
even remembers me, or it's a whole new set of people. And you would- you would hope at some point
they say, okay, you know, we know that our company, you know, probably did some wrong things, did
things the wrong way, and we just- we just want to do whatever it takes to give us that good reputation
again, and- and so forth. But, uh, yeah, I— for—looking back in hindsight over my life, after I knew all the
facts, yeah, PFAS did a lot of damage.
Danielle DeVasto: So then looking forward, what concerns, if any, do you have about PFAS
contamination, moving forward?
Al Eberlein: Well, for one thing, like I said, I believe it's- it's damaged my lineage. How- how long is it- is it
going to keep doing that, you know. Oh, you know, are we still learning? I- I hope the science is- is still
gonna find out more and more of, or how can we head things off at the pass, maybe. Like what happened
to my daughter with th- this rare form of, uh, preeclampsia. How can we get, you know, more proactive
about things like that? And on Wolverine side, I'm not convinced that they've totally come clean yet. I'm
not convinced that that whole river is- is remediated yet. Um, and should people like me that lived here all
my life, you know, is- is there any compensation for us, you know, is there, or- or any, uh, health benefits
or anything? You poisoned this whole town, Wolverine. You poisoned the whole town. Nobody even talks
about it. It's kind of convenient how big business and even, you know, unfortunately gov—you know,
government, city governments, this little town that was all beholding to Wolverine, how they can kowtow
down to money, but just a thought, you poisoned the whole town, the people that made all your money for
you. [BANG SOUND]
Danielle DeVasto: [SIGH] Big thought. Um, [CLEARING THROAT] before we wrap up, is there anything
that we haven't talked about that you'd like to touch on or anything that you want to go back to and say
more about?
Page 9
�Al Eberlein: Well, there's other things I could say, you know, but I better not, you know. I don't want to
get into other people's business, you know. But I'll tell you, like we were talking before you turned the
cameras on, just want anybody that might s—watch this or- or maybe even somebody from Wolverine
that would look in, do you really realize how deeply and generationally that this kind of thing affects
people? And I would think going forward, any good thing comes out of this is that you would double, triple,
quadruple down. Never, ever, ever let anything like this ever happen again [THUMPING] because if we
don't learn that lesson, then what are we doing here? [NOISE]
Danielle DeVasto: Thank you so much, Al, for taking the time to tell your story.
Al Eberlein: You're welcome. And once again, thank you for caring, 'cause we've gone through a lot of
years where it didn't seem like too many people were caring, and I'm glad to meet people such as
yourself and Lynn McIntyre, to know that there are people being vigilant out there, and, um, [LIP SMACK]
and, you know, I mean it's- it's all over, and it's not just one thing. Um, like I said, I grew up on Myers
Lake. They just found out here recently. I mean, I swam in that lake my whole childhood. Oh, guess what,
there's mercury in Myers Lake. Where did that come from? Some business at some point dumped
something in there, you know, so how many times can we exponentially extrapolate that out to the
countryside? You know, it's like there's landmines all over the place. And uh, so I- I don't think this is
anything that's gonna be solved for a long time 'cause we had a lot of industrial years where, I mean, EPA
didn't even come about to what, late '60s, into the early '70s, so, you know, it's, uh, we're just kind of
getting on, excuse me, on top of a lot of these, uh, more egregious things, you know. But, yeah, do I
believe PFAS damaged my life? Yeah, more ways than one. Career wise and personally with my family
that even has come into the future with my daughter and granddaughter. And after she had all that trouble
with preeclampsia and with the D&Cs that she had to have afterwards that, um, they scarred her for life,
and she can't conceive now. So I've got one grandchild, and [KNOCK SOUND] hopefully they'll adopt
someday 'cause we got a lot more love to give.
Danielle DeVasto: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you again, Al. I really appreciate it.
Al Eberlein: You're welcome.
Danielle DeVasto: It was an honor to listen to your story.
Al Eberlein: Well, thanks for saying so.
Page 10
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/91265fa5b5ef620372583b34f98142b4.mp4
3a79e52cea8d4d954d85b9f2b7d67179
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Living with PFAS Interviews
Creator
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Devasto, Danielle
Description
An account of the resource
The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS.
Date
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2021
Source
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Living with PFAS (project)
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In copyright
Subject
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Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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DC-11
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video/mp4
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audio/mp3
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eng
Oral History
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PFAS0034
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Eberlein, Alan
Date
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2022-11-29
Title
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Alan Eberlein, 2022 (Interview video and transcript)
Description
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Al Eberlein lives in Rockford, Michigan, where he was born and raised. In this interview, Al discusses his family's history and medical troubles which which he attributes to PFAS exposure.
Contributor
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DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer)
Subject
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Oral history
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PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
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Living with PFAS (project)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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video/mp4
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/69a5fea26060d92e3d72e2a7d6979573.pdf
46047858a4641a92b9e986e19f81f7b4
PDF Text
Text
Living with PFAS
Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto
Interviewee: Courtney Carignan
Date of Interview: 2022-11-18
Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, November 18, 2022. I have the pleasure of chatting with
Dr. Courtney Carignan. Hi Courtney.
Courtney Carignan: Hi
Danielle DeVasto: Courtney, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live?
Courtney Carignan: I'm originally from New Hampshire, and I currently live in mid-Michigan and work at
Michigan State.
Danielle DeVasto: Uh, how long have you been at Michigan State?
Courtney Carignan: Since 2017.
Danielle DeVasto: Courtney, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in
your community?
Courtney Carignan: I sure can. Um, so I started actually first got involved in PFAS, um, when I was
doing a postdoc in Boston, and I was living in Southern New Hampshire, um, and actually in Portsmouth,
New Hampshire, which is right on the coast. Um, and I saw in the paper, our, our community, uh, news
Seacoast online, there was a woman who wanted PFAS blood testing for her kids, because PFASs had
been detected in the drinking water of Pease Tradeport, which is at the former Pease Air Force Base,
and, um, I guess the State had told her that they would do the testing and then a year later they still
hadn't done it and were saying now that they couldn't, she was getting very upset. Um, and so I actually
had training in PFAS, um, I have a degree in, a Ph.D. in environmental health from the Boston University
School of Public Health. And, um, I was trained in under a training grant called Environmental
Epidemiology in Community Settings, and I worked on flame retardant, human exposure flame retardants,
and, um, I was actually at that time doing a post doc on fertility and flame retardants at Harvard. And, um,
so anyway, so I had a lot of training, and you know, how to provide support, technical support for PFAS
impacted communities. And my advisor at BU had worked on the C health study. So people in my
research group had been working on PFAS for, you know, the past five years or more. Um, and so I just
sort of happened to know a lot about PFAS, um, and, you know, saw her in the paper. And so, um, I
asked the reporter to tell me, you know, to connect us, and I connected with her and started providing her
with technical support and started trying with her, the State with technical support. Um, 'cause I, you
know, seem to know more about PFAS than anybody in the area. Um, and you know, Andrea went on to
found testing for Pease. She was able to get PFAS blood testing for over 2000 people who worked, um,
or was at, were at daycare at Pease Tradeport. Um, from that we learned that PFHXS is, which is, which
is a PFAS that has a very long half life. It stays in the body for, uh, quite a long time. Um, that this was
something that was part of the, astroblast mixture. So people with astroblast, source of drinking water
contamination, um, have this kind of unique signature of PFAS in their bodies that, you know, at the time
really wasn't understood at all. So, um, I can remember people misunderstanding the blood test results
Page 1
�from Pease as, oh, well their levels aren't that high, but they were looking at PFOA, which is not a major
part of AFFF. Um, and if you looked over at the PFHXS, it was quite high, you know, um, a lot of people
in, in the community had levels that were elevated above, above what you see in the, the general
population. So, um, I worked with Andrea for a few years, and then we helped organize the, uh, national
PFAS conference. The first one that was at Northeastern University, um, we put in a proposal to NIHS,
um, to do more work on understanding effects, uh, of PFAS in the immune systems of children exposed
to 00:03:59 ___________ Pease and also had to community in Massachusetts. Um, and then I got
recruited to MSU and I came here. Um, and since I, you know, since I came here, a few communities
have learned about actually many communities have learned about PFAS contamination. Um, so I should
have mentioned another thing that I did when I was at, um, Harvard is I was part of a, a group that wrote
a paper, uh, using the UCMR3 data. So this is data from EPA, uh, that EPA had on PFAS across the
country and drinking water. We were able to get that out and published. Uh, we found that over 6 million
people had likely been served by PFAS impacted drinking water. Um, and we were able to sort of see
that people were more likely to have drinking water contamination if they lived, if the drinking water
system was closer to, um, a place that used Atripla for training airports, wastewater treatment plants. Um,
and so that paper really, um, set off, um, monitoring in places or helped set off monitoring places.
Michigan was one place that started doing statewide monitoring of public drinking water systems. Um,
and that happened shortly after I came to MSU and, um, you know, that's how a lot of communities found
out about their contamination, but of course, you know, um, in Rockford they had found out a different
way. And I think you have a lot of videos of people explaining that situation. Um, and then Portsmith
obviously found out was one of the first sites in the United States to discover PFAS contamination. Um,
so I've been working, you know, with those communities, provided them with technical sports. Since I
came to Michigan, um, I've been working with communities in the southeastern part of the State, um, that
had quite high levels detected in their water through the statewide monitoring. I have a small exposure
study, uh, where we're looking at exposure, via drinking water, diet and indoor environment. Um, so we
know that drinking water is the main way that, so if you have elevated PFAS in your drinking water, um,
we know that it's a, a large contributor to exposure and that's why, you know, a lot of the interventions are
focused around drinking water. Um, and so, you know, that's the main focus, but, but we also know in the
general population that the main exposure is through diet. Um, and so the question that comes up in a lot
of communities is, you know, if they have my drinking water, um, treated, and we intervene and, and
reduce or eliminate hopefully PFAS and the drinking water, um, do I have an ongoing elevated sources of
exposure? So for example, through local and homegrown foods, so some communities have been told
not to, you know, eat chicken eggs, not to eat the produce in the gardens. Um, if they irrigated using
PFAS contained water and so forth. So communities have found elevating level 00:06:59 ___________ in
fish or fish advisories for many PFAS impact communities. Um, and right, so this is a important question.
So that's one, one of the questions that we've really working on for the past few years, um, and then the
other, we got our, that NIHS project funded. And, um, I think what we've recognized, you know, through
Page 2
�work on contaminants over the years, I've been working on contamination issues for 20 years now. And I
look young, but I'm not actually that young. Um, so, you know, I've been working in this area for a long
time. And what we've, what we've found is that, um, you know, no one research group can effectively help
all communities, you know, not anyone scientists can do all the work that needs to be done. And so, um,
a big part of our project is, you know, trying to build out resources for PFAS impacted communities. We
started doing this before, you know, good resources really existed on federal or State agency websites.
Um, and we think has been, you know, hopefully have been used as a model for a lot of those websites
and help them, you know, um, give them ideas for how to improve and vice versa. Um, but we have a
website called the PFAS exchange. So ww.pfas-exchange.org, and we put up a lot of different tools to
help PFAS impact communities and also to help ourselves because we get a lot of emails from people.
Um, and it's really helpful to be able to refer them somewhere where all the, you know, things that we
think are useful for them are also located. So we have a tool that helps people understand their water.
Our blood test results, so puts them into context. Um, so one of the water tool will compare your water
results to state and federal agency advi, you know, advisories or MCLs. Um, and that's really complicated
'cause they're always changing, and there's a lot of, you know, to, to sort of dig up all that information on
your own as a, you know, even as somebody who works in PFAS is a lot of work. And so, um, it's a really
helpful tool, I think for people and also for professionals to be able to use, um, and then also compares
you to sort of a representative levels across the country. Um, and I think what you notice when you look
at that tool is that, you know, a lot of places are elevated above, you know, what the guideline, which
seems to just continue to decrease as we learn more about the toxicities of chemicals. Um, and then the
blood tool does something similar except there's no, I don't, I don't think we've come to a great guidance
level yet for whats safe in blood. Um, we see effects of PFAS in the general population in general
population levels. Um, so, you know, we think that we're, well, we know that we're all exposed, and we
think from the data that we have so far, um, in the literature, et cetera, that, you know, these are affecting
people at general population levels. Um, and of course that risk goes up as you're more highly exposed
and as you have more risk factors, um, and that communication is always difficult with people with, you
know, known occupational or drinking water exposures that, um, you know, just because you see this list
of health effects, it doesn't mean you're gonna get it. 'cause you've been exposed, we've all been
exposed. Some people have been exposed at higher levels than other people. And some people have
been exposed at much higher levels than other people. Everyone has been exposed unwittingly. Um, and
you know, there's a lot of risk factors that go into why would, why would you get a disease? Um, and so,
you know, reducing your exposure moving forward and um, you know, talking to your doctor and trying to
reduce your other risk factors and monitoring. So, um, I was part of, um, uh, community liaison for the
national academies of engineering and sciences. And 00:11:01 ___________ just did a study on PFAS,
um, blood testing and medical monitoring. Um, so as part of that group, and they came up with some nice
guidance for clinicians, for talking about to their doctors or for clinicians talking to their patients, they have
a nice guidance. Actually they came up with, um, some numbers so that people with levels in their blood
Page 3
�could, um, you know, sort of understand better doctors in particular could look at blood levels and then,
you know, make some, uh, informed decisions about screening. So there are medical screening guidance
that exist out there. We have one on the PFAS exchange on the resources page. Uh, it's a companion
guidance, so there's one for clinicians, and there's one for, uh, community members, and they're, you
know, really kind of meant to be used together. Um, and then we have a new resources page for
clinicians, and we've just put our new, um, continuing medical education video up there that we made
with, you know, um, PFAS experts and physicians and, um, people who've been impacted by PFAS. Um,
so that's up on our website now along with other tools for clinicians. So we're still building that out. Um,
and sorry. I feel like I'm like, um, going around a little bit um, this has been helpful information so far.
Danielle DeVasto: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the way some of the PFAS stories works. I
feel like it kind of wins and winds its way around and kind of gets into everything in its own weird way.
Um, it sounds though like your, the PFAS exchange is still something that's kind of actively evolving or
kind of growing. It sounds like?
Courtney Carignan: Mm-hmm.
Danielle DeVasto: Are there any, um, obvious next steps that you guys have in mind or other ways that
you'd like to see it kind of keep evolving?
Courtney Carignan: Well, another recent evolution has been, um, a new map. So we have a mapping
tool on there under the community, connecting communities tab that, um, shares PFAS site data across
the country. And then also, um, my collaborators came up with this idea of, um, suspect sources. So they
actually map all, you know, kind of entities that may use PFAS in their, you know, processes, um, or at
PFAS. And so they've mapped all of those, and I mean the map just like lights up completely, and it helps
you see like all the places. 'Cause I think one of the things that is hard to communicate about PFAS is
that, you know, there's a whole lot of them. I think the, the number keeps growing. I think the last I
remember is like 20,000 PFASs um, when I started, I, I mean, I feel like just a few years ago we were
saying like 9,000 or 4,000 or 2,000. Um, so the number really gone up a lot and um, you know, I, I tend to
talk about them as legacy PFASs. So we know a lot about PFOA and PFOS health effects of these
PFAS. We've been for a long time that were faced out a decade ago in the U.S., all of a, of them. Um,
some countries have continued to produce some overseas, uh, in that time, but you know, in the U.S.,
we've been using other PFAS for many years now. And so we tend to talk about those as current use
PFAS. So, you know, there's been a focus on monitoring for legacy PFASs and a lot of the data that's out
there is legacy PFASs, it's a small panel. Um, and so a lot of our work focuses on looking at expanded
panels that include current use PFASs and talking about current use PFASs um, because, you know, it's,
it's basically doing a bunch of different jobs at the same time. You're looking back at all of the
contamination that's occurred over the past, you know, basically my lifetime, our lifetimes, right. Um, and
trying to clean it up, you know, for these bad, very persistent PFASs. And then there's all these new
PFASs that, you know, as we learn more about them, we're learning, you know, that they can act in
similar ways, a lot of them are less persistent. Some of them are precursors to the legacy PFASs of
Page 4
�PFOA, um, and the, the chemistries are very complicated. I work with a lot of analytical chemists and, you
know, part of the challenge of looking at PFAS in food is that, you know, different types of food are
different types of complicated matrices and the, um, chemistry just didn't exist, you know, to be able to, to
reliably, um, quantify large panels of PFAS and food. And then also, um, there are these interferences in
food that will give you false positives. Um, and so it's just, it's very complicated, and you know, I'm not
analytical chemist, but my work relies on good analytical chemistry. So, um, that's, that's a big challenge
for PFAS. We're just like we just been playing catch up. Um, I just feel like since I started working on it,
we're just playing catch up and, um, really communicating about, you know, moving to floral polymers,
um, doesn't solve the life lifecycle issue of PFAS, which is that you're creating, you know, you're using
PFASs to create Flor polymers, and then they're eventually gonna, um, break down back into PFAS over
time. You know, we think that hope right, that floral polymers are reducing exposure to the consumer and
during the lifetime of the, um, during the, you know, use portion of the product, but we know that, you
know, we're not completely solving the problem of PFAS that it's, um, really a life cycle issue. And, uh,
yeah, I'm not, did that answer your question? Did I just go off on like another —
Danielle DeVasto: No, I mean, it, it raised a lot of really interesting points and, um, you know, uh, wow.
And like, it actually makes me think of like probably five more questions that I could ask. Um, but one of
the things that struck me about what you're saying too, is that I'm thinking I'm listening and hearing all of
these different people that you're collaborating with to kind of, to do your work, you know, analytical
chemists, um, all the collaborators that you have as far as like creating the PFAS exchange, the
communities that you're interfacing with. And it just, um, it seems like you're, you're involved in a lot of
different kinds of conversations about PFAS, you know, whether it's talking about kind of like the, like the
chemical makeup and like the really technical nitty gritty, or talking with people who just wanna
understand like their test results or what to do next. And I guess, you know, having kind of worked in this
realm now for 20 some years, um, what, like, can you, can you say more about that or like what you've
learned by doing some of this, this interfacing between all these different groups in order to do your work?
Courtney Carignan: Um, I don't know. I, I mean, it's complicated. It's not, you know, we were talking
about this before a little bit before we started filming that, you know, it's a really complicated landscape
and that what I've learned. And I think I learned, you know, within the first decade of working on these
kinds of issues was that no, you know, so I, I got my Ph.D. 'cause I was working in a community where
they had drinking water contamination of trichloroethylene. It was a rural community in Pennsylvania and,
um, people there really weren't being told much, you know, I kind of witnessed on 'cause I was, I was
working in the community for two years doing the response action. I was a consultant. Um, we were, you
know, consulting for the responsible party. And so I got this unique, you know, I don't think it's a unique
look in, in terms of consulting. That's what consultants do, but it's unique in the sense of academic
academics, don't tend to have this perspective. Um, so I really saw what happens in a community when
this kind of contamination is discovered and, you know, understood what I thought they needed. I thought
they needed studies. So I went back to it, got my Ph.D. Um, I thought they needed people who knew
Page 5
�about contamination could help them, which is true. Um, and you know, I think in the process getting my
Ph.D. and then, you know, providing technical support at Pease, I realized that or learned, um, through
that work that again, you know, scientists and researchers do not have all the answers and do not work
on their own, which, um, I'm sure people told me along the way through my training, um, you know, you
hear that referred to the importance of community engaged work and the importance of working with your
agencies. Um, but I didn't really understand that until, you know, I started doing it and making lots of, you
know, probably lots of mistakes along the way. Um, 'cause it's very humbling to, you know, want to do all
of this work and then realize like you cannot achieve [LAUGHTER] the things that you think need to be
done without, you know, um, these relationships
Danielle DeVasto: That's, that's so true., it's so true. And because, you know, as you said, this isn't just
the legacy PFAS, it's kind of an evolving, it's an evolving story. Um, it's not just, you know, this one and
done kind of thing, which maybe leads me into my next question. Um, thinking about PFAS contamination
moving forward, what kinds of concerns do you have?
Courtney Carignan: Um, so I'm, you know, I'm concerned about our ability to monitor for and make
progress on the current use PFAS issue, right? The tap is still on, it feels very urgent, um, to make
progress on that issue quickly. Um, and while simultaneously, you know, addressing all of the legacy
pollution, you know, kind of how do we do that all at the same time? Um, the, you know, I, I do a lot of
biomonitoring and health studies. Um, that's my main, the main thing that I, if there's a main thing I focus
on, that's it, um, it's the, you know, maybe one of the things I'm best at, and you know, the way that we
monitor for exposure to legacy PFASs is easy in the sense that you do a blood draw. Um, we just
developed, um, or validated a new finger prick test, which is kinda exciting, um, because getting a blood
draw is there's a lot of barriers for people. So we've been working on those kinds of issues as part of the
reason we have the clinician resources page, we've got lots of resources there to help people get PFAS,
blood testing, 'cause that's one of the main things that people tell us that they want when they find out
that they've exposed. Um, but you know, legacy PFASs you can detect them in the blood for a very long
time after exposure. So if you were exposed five years ago, and you were exposed to PFLS or EFFF um,
and you do a PFAS blood test, um, and opposing your drinking water, you know, you could actually back
back calculate what your exposure was five years ago. Like we understand, you know, the behavior in the
body well enough that we can do that. Um, whereas with current use PFASs, they're gonna be eliminating
from the body more quickly. They're still persistent, but not as persistent. And so when, if you're doing bio
monitoring the blood, um, and you are ignoring the fact that all these different PFASs have different, you
know, longevity in the blood, um, you are not gonna understand exposure correctly. Um, and so I think
that's as an exposure scientist, I think, I think, you know, sort of the, the thing I'm thinking about the most
right now is, you know, I think a lot about like how, how not to do harm and how to make sure my work is
not harming anyone and making mistakes like that could be very big mistakes. So, um, being careful
about, you know, how do we make sure that we are understanding people's exposures and representing
them correctly, not only exposure assessment, but also importantly, in these environmental epidemiology
Page 6
�studies, because exposure misclassification is one of the biggest problems in expo, uh, environmental
epidemiology. Um, if you don't have exposure assessed well, um, you have a bias towards the mill, which
means you're more likely to conclude there's no effect when one, in fact is there
Danielle DeVasto: Can you just for people who maybe are listening and don't know, can you say a little
bit more about what biomonitoring is?
Courtney Carignan: So bio biomonitoring is, um, testing for or monitoring for, um, usually, you know, in
my context, contaminants in the body are in biological matrices. So in people, um, you know where we're
testing blood or urine or hair or fingernails, or, you know, you know, different biological fluids or matrices.
Um, and you know, before, when I was a consultant, we'd even do it. And in, in lots of people still do this,
right. Uh, you can do bio monitoring of, of IOTA also, um, but in my context I'm usually talking human
health studies.
Danielle DeVasto: Before we wrap, is there anything that you would like to add or, um, that we haven't
touched on today or anything you wanna go back to and say more about?
Courtney Carignan: Um, I mean, I, I plugged the PFAS exchange website. I think that's a really helpful
place for people to get information. Um, and you know, we do, you know, it is a work in progress.
Hopefully we can get funded to continue working on that, 'cause I think our project period is expiring, but,
um, you know, we, we always wanna make it better, and it's helpful to, you know, know from people not
only like what ways to improve it, but also, you know, sometimes we partner with people who can
volunteer their time or, [LAUGHTER] you know, can help us find funding to, to be able to continue
improve it. 'cause it is, like you said, I'm doing a lot of different things, and you know, spread pretty thin.
So it's, um, there's like the pie in the sky, what we wanna do. And then there's like the nuts and bolts of
getting it done and so people wanna, um, get connected. Uh that's great. And then I guess I would also
say, you know, I, I, I would encourage people who, you know, are exposed, and you know, wanna take
action. Um, there's a lot of different groups. So if you go to the PFAS exchange connection, connecting
communities page, uh, it'll help you find different groups that are working on PFAS and taking action in
their communities. And then we have a national PFAS contamination coalition, um, or shouldn't say we,
there is one, um, I serve, um, serve as a, you know, provide technical assistance for the coalition. Um,
and I provide technical assistance for a lot of community groups, you know, a lot of my funding, um, you
know, my salary, right. It's all comes from the public. So, you know, I see that work as, you know, as long
as I have the bandwidth to do it, you know, I'm gonna do that kinda work.
Danielle DeVasto: I imagine also find, find meaningful because it sounds like that's sort of, you know,
working with communities sounds like where your story started way back in Pennsylvania.
Courtney Carignan: Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm from a mill family. So my, um, grandfather actually was
a lumberjack in Maine and my grandmother worked at a shoe factory in Maine, Um, and you know, I'm,
you know, I'm from New Hampshire, but you know, we have a lot of, you know, my husband's family help
build the mills in New Hampshire. Um, so we kind of have this, um, history to our families that, um, you
know, we also are French Canadians, so we also have indigenous, you know, backgrounds. So, um, I
Page 7
�think I see those communities and, and I understand, you know, what challenges they face. Um, so yeah,
I do find a lot of meaning in that work.
Danielle DeVasto: Well, I have poked around the PFAS exchange website, and it looks awesome. I'm
very grateful to you guys for creating that. Seems like such a great resource in so many ways, and I'm
excited to see where it keeps going. Have you gotten much feedback about the website since it's launch?
Courtney Carignan: Yeah. I mean, mostly we get mostly we get, uh, feedback from the coalition 'cause
we meet with them and ask them, um, but, and then I have feedback from myself. Right. All things we
wanna do. [LAUGHTER' Um, so yeah, it's definitely a work in progress.
Well, I'm, I'm so glad that it's there, and I'm always happy to have it because you know, there are lots of
questions and there's so much information and confusing information. So having somewhere to be able to
send people is a really, seems like a really great thing. So.
Courtney Carignan: I guess another thing to mention is, um, that I am working with firefighters as well
cause firefighters have occupational exposures to PFAS. Um, and so I'm connected with a group that has
a website called PFAS for EPPE. Um, and I'm connected with the IFFF and, um, I'm doing a very small
exposure study on firefighters. I know that there's a bigger study going on in the State led by NDHHS, but,
um, I decided mention that as well, that, you know, occupational exposed groups, I think, um, you know,
there's been a lot of focus on drinking water. Um, and that's what I'm focusing on a lot on the last, you
know, five to 10 years. But, um, occupational exposure is something that is also very important, and
there's so many ways that people can occupation expose to PCOS and have no idea. So firefighters for a
long time were told that Atripla was like soap and water and, um, it's just, that's how they treated it. So
they, you know, exposed themselves, they, you know, spread it all over the environment. Um, PFASs are
used in, have been used in ski wax. Um, I'm trying to think of all 'cause I usually like rattle off a list of
occupations that you use PFAS and might not know.
Danielle DeVasto: Yeah. What are, what are a couple of the most surprising ones?
Courtney Carignan: Well, I mean, carpeting has been, you know, something that we were working on at
BU during my Ph.D. So our group was the first to show PFAS, you know, and in the indoor environment
from carpeting, um, and that, you know, it's in the air and dust and, and people also spray Scotchguard
on their furniture. It was very common in the past. I was at my local hot tub store last summer and didn't
get a hot tub, but I did notice that, uh, no, I wish I, they had a can of that kind of spray, and it actually said
on it, you know, perifluoro-, blah, blah, blah. And I was so shocked that they still sell this kind of spray.
And I told the cashier like, do you know what's in this? Um, so yeah, I mean that, those kinds of sprays
are still in the market and, you know, people, you know, for the past, you know, a few decades used to
spray it in their homes, um, parchment paper. Um, so the paper that you used to line, you know, holiday
seasons coming up and doing a lot of baking, um, I'm curious to know what PFASs are being replaced in
parchment paper. They think they're moving away from PFASs in food packaging, um, and food contact
papers. Um, and so I guess those are the two sort of indoor environments, I think about the most. Um, I
think UFM published a study on PFASs on floor wax, um, or they had a poster on it. So they found that it
Page 8
�was being used in the, those big machines that wax the floors. Um, so that, I think that's another
surprising place they're used in extrusion of plastics. So vinyl flooring there's trace levels at least of
PFASs in, uh, artificial turf. So the plastic blades of graphs, grass in artificial turf, um, I mean, it's just like
the list just goes on and on and on places that PFASs are used that are surprising. I mean, originally the
first sort of surprising place that that was discovered was popcorn bags, microwave, popcorn bags, and
again, I'm not sure what replacements being used currently, if it's still a PFAS or something else. Um,
people ask all the time about, you know, pans, um, stuff on pans or nonstick pans. Consumer reports just
put out a nice report on that. So I'm referring people to that report for more information. Um, but yeah,
there's a lot of sources, you know, kind of lurking sources of PFAS, um, that you expect or know about.
And often don't have control over, like right in your workplace, if you have a stain resistant carpeting, like,
you know, um, what are you gonna do about that or in your home even, um, can you afford to replace it?
Um, so I did that answer your question. on another tangent, but like in terms of occupational exposure
zone, people who actually did make stain resistant carpeting, people who work, you know, in paper, the
paper industry, you know, they actually mix the paper, you know, pull up in the PFAS together. Uh,
people who worked in tanneries and used PFASs on leather goods, um, people who worked in the plating
industry and are standing over vats of PFAS containing you know, so, you know, I think about those
people and, um, wonder what's being, what's being done for them.
Danielle DeVasto: Well, thank you so much, Courtney, for taking the time to share your story and your
work today. Um, it's been a pleasure talking with you,
Courtney Carignan: You too.
Page 9
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8e0c6b69c9bbe0f6940912b06af1206.mp4
63e6db84b89e7ecd037c554b4b98ba5e
Dublin Core
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Title
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Living with PFAS Interviews
Creator
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Devasto, Danielle
Description
An account of the resource
The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS.
Date
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2021
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Living with PFAS (project)
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In copyright
Subject
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Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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DC-11
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video/mp4
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audio/mp3
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eng
Oral History
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PFAS0033
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Carignan, Courtney
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2022-11-18
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Courtney Carignan, 2022 (Interview video and transcript)
Description
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Dr. Courtney Carignan lives in central Michigan and works at Michigan State University, though she was raised in New Hamphsire. She holds a PhD in environmental health from the Boston University School of Public Health. In this interview, she discusses her involvement with PFAS advocacy and research in her communities, as well as a new mapping tool that will collect and share PFAS site data across the United States.
Contributor
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DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer)
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Oral history
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PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
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Living with PFAS (project)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/38e16a26e9df94602f3e08753d765804.pdf
7a5e5b4e95c0f3f44479eb0505c4f964
PDF Text
Text
Living With PFAS
Interviewee: Kevin Elliot
Interviewer: Dani DeVasto
Date: October 17, 2021
DD: I’m Dani DeVasto, and - [Recording paused] chatting with doctor Kevin Elliot. Hi Kevin.
KE: Hey.
DD: Kevin, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live.
KE: Sure, well originally I grew up near the Chicago area - in the suburbs. Currently I live in
Okemos, Michigan, which is just to the east of east lansing where im a faculty member at
michigan state university.
DD: And how long have you been there?
KE: I came in January of 2014, so I guess it's been about 7 and a half years.
DD: Kevin, can you tell me a story about your experience with pfas or with pfas in your
community?
KE: Yeah, so um... I don't have a good story about PFAS in my community, but um, I have, over
the past year been involved with the center for PFAS research at MSU, and then I’ve been on a,
um, National Academy of Sciences Committee thats is trying to give guidance to clinicians as
they work with people who are concerned about PFAS exposure. And I guess maybe just a story
that might be of interest related to that is that we’ve been having these public sessions where
people who have been dealing with PFAS exposure can share their experiences, and several of
the sort of stories that I've heard through that have been some that are really striking to me. And
um, I guess maybe i'll just say one general sort of reaction first then you can let me know if you
want me to get more concrete. The general reaction that has just been striking to me as I hear
from different people who have been saying, saying they have children who ended up with
testicular cancer or you know, other sorts of effects, or um other people, you know, spouses who
have been dealing with health effects is just how frustrated they've been, feeling like their um,
the physicians they've been working with, haven't been very supportive or in some cases even
kind of minimize the likelihood that PFAS contributed to the health problems. And of course,
you know it is - you can't be sure what caused it. But it was just so surprising to me hearing
about the disappointment they've had working with doctors that either don't know anything about
�PFAS, which I can kind of understand. But then also, just plain kind of being dismissive and not
wanting to be very helpful in exploring PFAS as a potential contributor to these problems. So
that was really striking to me.
DD: Can you maybe take a step back and talk a little bit about how you got to that point of
having those conversations; some of your background in any context, I think that might be
helpful.
KE: Yeah, I mean It would be helpful to talk about sort of how I ended up, like, how this
committee ended up forming, or like sort of my background in terms of my scholarship and stuff
like that DD: Yes, yes.
KE: Okay, I'll talk about it all. So i'm a philosopher of science and I uh, - I don't know how
much nitty gritty to go into - I have a background in chemistry and then I got interested in
philosophy, and so I ended up doing my PhD in the history of philosophy and science and alot of
scholarship involved studying controversies about science, and especially environmental kind of
areas of science, and um, especially environmental pollution. And so, I would sometimes look at
the role of conflicts of interest in that science. How they all have different groups with different
financial stakes or other personal stakes in scientific controversies or how harmful chemicals
may be. So I'm interested in, sort of, what are the judgements that go into evaluating the science
in trying to say, yeah we think this chemical is pretty harmful or no its not that big of a deal. So
yeah, as a philosopher I dont do the hardcore science but I sort of reflect and look at the dates
and try to understand why are there these disagreements, how do we handle the disagreements,
how do we sort of address them responsibly and so on. So anyway, as part of that work, I have
ended up getting a little bit connected with agencies like The National Institute of Environmental
Health Sciences which is part of the national institute of health. Which funds alot of our medical
research in the US, and the national academy of sciences. I don't know if it's helpful for me to
say what that is for folks, uh DD: Sure.
KE: Folks watching this may not know so much, The National Academy of Sciences put
together, actually back during the civil war, as um sort of an expert organization provided by [?]
to the federal government. And so, It will create committees to address certain issues when
government agencies want certain advice on things. Most of the time it would be science on
these committees, um, and uh so I was a little surprised when I got a approached to see if I could
serve on this particular committee, that um, was actually partly - trying to think of the right word
- commission, I guess, by a branch of the center of disease control, the ATSDR, which is the
�Agency for Toxic Substances and Diseases [?] This is this group that helps deal with
communities who are facing chemical exposures, pollution, spills [?]. And so they've provided
advice to doctors in the past about how to deal with PFAS, but they've had pushback from
communities feeling like the advice they've provided hasn't really been what they hoped for,
communities feel like the current guidance isn't very supportive for them to be able to get tested
for their exposure to PFAS, and it maybe doesn't - Yeah maybe just isn't as aggressive when
accepting that their might be health effects from PFAS exposures as i think a lot of people in
these communities would want. Anyways, so this community was put together and its mostly
scientists, I was a little surprised as a philosopher that they asked me to be involved. But, I now
understand why, because one of the things the committee asked to do is to provide principals for
clinicians who are making decisions and providing advice under scientific uncertainty. I think
they use the language of substantial scientific uncertainty. Scientists often don't really like
having to provide advice in those kinds of situations. And it's just a tricky, tricky issue. So
anyway, I think they realized maybe it'll be good to have someone like me on this committee,
and I think it turned out to be a good move. So that's the background behind this, and I’m just
blabbing away but as we got started, often it would just be us experts deliberating, and we ended
up realizing this is so tightly connected with people's own experiences, maybe to be responsible,
we really need to have some open town halls where we can hear from various people and
communities who have had these experiences, and so that's where my story came from, that
we’ve been hearing these [?] experiences, and that's probably what I’m most useful for sharing
during this discussion. Because I don't have personal experiences but I’ve been struck by what
I’ve heard from people.
DD: Absolutely, were people something you were aware of before you started this project? How
did you kind of come to be aware?
KE: I was hearing about it a bit, just from you know interacting with other people in the
university setting, um so I don't know exactly when I first heard of it, but I kept hearing little bits
and pieces about it, and kind of got the sense, you know, i feel like the environmental health
community will go through these waves where there will be this new big thing we realize, “Ah”
This is a problem and there hasn't been enough work on it, then you know maybe it dies down, or
it maintains attention and something else will come up that we realize, so I just kept hearing bits
and pieces about it and thinking wow maybe this is a significant area I should try and learn more
about. And then when some of the faculty at MSU started kind of pursuing like, some research
funding to try and make a center for research on PFAS, I thought well this is a great opportunity
to find out more, and so I got involved in that center. Thats been the past couple of years I’ve
been learning a lot, I really didn't know much previously.
DD: And do you foresee PFAS continuing to be part of your research focus moving forward or
do you think this is - Like once you develop these guidelines?
�KE: I think that, so you know participation in the national academy will be over, were supposed
to have a report submitted in May of 2022, but, I would like to continue sort of exploring this
issue, kind of as a philosopher I tend to sort of explore areas like case studies where i’ll sort of
look over the research being done on them, you know, ask questions about it. So I would like this
to be uh one of these case studies that I look at in the future. I have the benefit. Scientists have to
develop all this infrastructure in their labs and really focus on something. I have the luxury. I can
look at multiple case studies, but I’d like this to be one of them for a while to come I think.
DD: So, as a philosopher then, are there particular questions or aspects of this particular PFAS
case study that interest you, or challenge you, or you know... keep your attention?
KE: Yeah um, well I think - I don't know that PFAS is totally unique compared to you know,
other things, but I think there are some issues in this case and in other cases that strike me as
really interesting. And one is, it once again highlights the question of how to engage in
appropriate regulation and policy and responses to these issues where we're just not gonna have
all the scientific knowledge that we'd like. Because, you know like I constantly hear, you know
about thousands, you know often the numbers like five thousand different PFAS compounds that
could be used, that are out there, depending on how you find exactly what counts in this
category, and so there's just no way we can test all these things in detail, it's like a micro[?] of
our general problems with, you know, chemical recreation, so we have to find strategic ways to
sort of make decisions without knowing all of the nitty-gritty details. You know, some people
suggest we should group them together as either a huge class, or as some class and say look, if a
chemical falls under this general group, then shouldn't use it, or try to minimize the use, or try to
look for alternatives for the greatest extent possible. And so, those are the things that interest me,
sort of looking at the science and the decision making and trying to figure out what do we do
given that this is just too messy, there's just too much going on to really study in great detail.
DD: So I know your report and your study are still ongoing, but do you have any ideas about
what we should do?
KE: Yeah well... so... so this is where I probably can't say a ton about the details of the report at
this point. But, um, I think a general theme in my work is to argue that it's a real mistake to think
that you have to have the science figured out, before you can make decisions. I tend to be a fan
of the folks who, you know some folks have been writing articles, saying things like given how
persistent these are in the environment and given that, you know a lot of them seem to be fairly
bioaccumulative, meaning that um, a build up in organisms and as it goes up the food chain you
know, humans can end up you know [?] in our bodies. I think we have to be willing to go ahead
and take some sort of action, even if we don't have decisive proof that there's a problem. And
that's actually a little bit different from what I’m saying from the details from what we're talking
�about in our report, our advice for clinicians. I guess I’m giving this general sort of perspective
that we cant be perfectly precautionary with respect to everything, but I think it doesn't make any
sense to say well we can't take any actions until we get the science. I think that's a mistake.
DD: Well I will be looking forward to reading your report, in the near future hopefully.
KE: Yeah, yeah. I’m hoping that it will be useful and it has been really interesting so I’ll just
mention one other thing. As part of putting it together we looked at sorts of frameworks for
making decisions under uncertainty, and it has been kind of striking to me that again, I feel like
these frameworks in general are much more geared towards making the decision when you’ve
got a good deal of evidence that we don’t have as quality frameworks for making decisions under
uncertainty, and I think the scientific community just doesn't feel super comfortable with that.
That's just the one comment I would make that's been interesting for me as I've been reading and
[?].
DD: And can I maybe ask about another- other frameworks in terms of guidance from medical
professionals. What's kind of the status on guidance for that or for medical professionals
specifically dealing with PFAS right now?
KE: Yeah, I’m not much of an expert on the medical stuff, but it's been very interesting for me
learning a little bit more, there's a well put together framework from the United States Preventive
Services Task Force (USPSTF) And I get the impression they provide all kinds of guidelines for
things like, you know when you should start getting prostate cancer screening or colonoscopies
or breast cancer screening or all that kinds of stuff. And so they’ve got this whole framework in
place for trying to evaluate evidence and decide when it's enough to definitely recommend that
people do something or recommend that people do it, um, if they want to, you know leaving
more judgement for them, and like how much evidence they wanna see in order to make these
kinds of recommendations. So it's really pretty aggressive, but again, my sense of the framework,
they don't really like to provide recommendations when there's substantial scientific uncertainty.
So that’s one of the frameworks that was interesting to learn a little bit more about.
DD: Sure. So what concerns, if any, do you have about PFAS contamination or PFAS related
issues moving forward from this time?
KE: Yeah, one of the things that strikes me, and this is coming from hearing people talk in these
town halls from the committee, was just how sad it is, that you’ll have communities where on the
one hand, people will want to find more about the contamination in their communities. But then,
they’re afraid, at least some people in the communities are afraid, that if there were more, well
then it would end up being economically harmful, like people don't want to come to those
communities as tourists or people don't want to buy houses in those communities - or um - It was
�so striking hearing about, like, farmers or ranchers like once they found out that they're, lets say,
herd of animals was contaminated. Then they are in just a total mess in terms of not being able to
sell the animals or sell milk from the animals or things like that. And so, It really worries me
realizing that there's this tension between wanting to learn more about, you know, the potential
threats one faces, then they are communities will disadvantage finding this stuff out. That can
create tension between communities, and just, - serious economic problems, and so anyways that
was really striking to me.
DD: Yeah, I can imagine that playing out in a number of different ways into communities. Well,
before we wrap up, Kevin, is there anything that you'd like to go back to, that we - or anything
you'd like to add that we haven't touched on? I know you jumped around your story.
KE: Right, right.
DD: But I wanted to hear if you had a chance to go and say anything additional.
KE: Yeah, another thing I guess - I guess that has just struck me, as I’ve been learning more
about PFAS and maybe this is more sort of, you know the cognitive and academic thing you're
looking for, but um, It's just been interesting - One of the things that I have been intrigued about
is debates about biosolids, which are you know kind of produced from waste water treatment
plants and have lots of, fertilizer potentially. So farmers will, you know, put them on their fields,
and in principle it seems like a great way to kind of have a circular economy where you know,
we're producing sewage waste, but we can take some of the good aspects of it and put it back on
the land. But, then there are concerns now about pollutants in biosolids and so on, and worries
that if we put it on farmers' fields it can cause problems, you know, potentially taken up by crops
and then be a problem for people or be a problem for people near those fields and so on. It's just
been striking as I learn more about this, I don't know enough about the scientific details on how
much you should be worried about this and so on, um, but just realizing what a problem it is to
sort of deal with these when they are so persistent in the environment, that its like they just keep
cycling around. So you know, well go into the wastewater treatment plant, and then they go to
the biosolids and the biosolids either have to go to some landfill somewhere or have to get spread
on someones fields, then it goes to the landfills and eventually seems to come out in the [?] then
that has to go somewhere, maybe back to a wastewater treatment plant, if it spreads on the fields
then it may go into water. And the ways in which - We can’t get rid of this stuff, you know,
unless I guess you burn it at 1000 degrees celsius or something, again the scientists can provide
more nitty-gritty but that has been pretty striking to me, and again has kinda furthered my
thinking, where you know, it just doesn't make sense to use persistent compounds like this, if we
can avoid it. Because it’s just such a mess if they might become a problem. And so I think that's
something that has been really striking and interesting to me as i've learned a little bit more about
PFAS.
�DD: Yeah, a whole other set of problems.
KE: Right, exactly. And I - I don't know if there's anything else, um, that struck me. [Brief
Pause] I guess just the other thing, and again this isn’t particularly profound, but it's been so
interesting to me also hearing about some of the communities, or like, uh, seeing your military
bases, or like firefighters where they are especially using these foams, they call them “A Triple
F” [?] Forming foams I think, they reason in which they were told this is just like soap and they
had no worries about these, and you know sometimes they would just use it for fun. Kids would
play in this stuff, figuring you know they could just spray this everywhere and not worry at all
about being exposed to it. And um, It just makes me wonder kinda the lesson I kind of gleamed
from this is, what things are we exposed to now, where we’re just assuming there's nothing to
worry about, and then we might find out 10 years from now, oh there was a problem, and again,
we wanna ask these questions about surely there should be a better way of strategizing in terms
of putting products onto the market. I know we don't want to halt innovation, but it's just so
striking to me the way we just produce thousands of chemicals and just throw them out there and
then end up finding out kinda later at some point that there's a worry. I'm just pontificating about
all kinds of stuff.
DD: Well I mean from a historical perspective too it's interesting right, I'm sure you've seen this
is not the first time humanity has done something like this. Like, we seem to keep doing these
things where we throw products out there and discover after the fact that we need to [?] back. So
I imagine there might be some interest for you there from a historical perspective as well.
KE: Of course, of course, absolutely. Great point.
DD: Yeah, well thank you so much, Kevin. For taking the time to share your story today.
KE: Yeah! It's a pleasure and I'm really glad youre doing this project.
DD: Thank you.
KE: Thanks.
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b2436af965122592a4d60f25d61e5d98.mp4
43143efa6ab44119f1b0a11f64e384a7
Dublin Core
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Living with PFAS Interviews
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Devasto, Danielle
Description
An account of the resource
The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS.
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2021
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Living with PFAS (project)
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In copyright
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Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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DC-11
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Oral History
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PFAS0029
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Elliott, Kevin
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2021-09-27
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Kevin Elliott, 2021 (Interview video and transcript)
Description
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Dr. Kevin Elliott lives in Lansing, Michigan, and is involved in the Center for PFAS Research at Michigan State University. He also serves on a National Academy of Sciences Committee that gives guidance to clinicians working with people concerned about PFAS exposure. Elliott holds a PhD in the history of philosophy and science, and studies controversies about science and environmental pollution. In this interview, Elliott discusses his involvement with PFAS research and education.
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DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer)
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Oral history
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PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
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Living with PFAS (project)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/914e4667ff45e2db00d15b988a7c9971.pdf
c5b31590280fdb881f8a30a772042938
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Moises Nazario
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 39:41
Interviewer: Alright, so we have gotten you now…Okay, so you had been talking—you
were talking about how you didn’t really want a Bronze Star, you just wanted to go back
out and—
Veteran: No, I didn’t. I turned them down, you know. I turned them down. I said, “No, I don’t
want Bronze Star. I didn’t get hurt.” You know, and the funny part is, when Obama started
handing these out, I was reading through some of the citations on these people and I said,
“Damn,” I said, “I did more than this thing, you know?” And they cheapened the award, you
know. Anyway, we got back there, you know, and we just continued our—through the sweep.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: One guy stepped on a mine. I was maybe from here…Maybe, well, close to 15 met—
not even 15 meters apart. You know? This guy got lifted off the ground. And I was right next
to—close to him. But luckily, I didn’t—nobody got hurt except this guy. And this guy only had a
laceration of the leg. I said oh man, I didn’t know at the time that the landmine, if it gets buried,
it continues to go up and then goes—and this mine that he stepped on, huge, huge, huge mine
because it really—all of us were covered with dirt. All of us were covered with dirt. It would
�have wiped us out if we had been all riding together. It would have wiped us all out. So,
somebody up there has been watching me, you know. Watching all. Well, whoever it was must
have been watching me. And I just—all I had to do on this guy was just put a butterfly bandage
on this guy. You know? I was the first one to, because I was close to him, I was the first one to
go to get to him as a corpsman.
Interviewer: Alright. And now, one other thing that you had mentioned kind of in passing
earlier—you said you spent your 30th birthday in Vietnam under not very—
Veteran: We had just got there. I just got there, and we were on the battalion sweep.
Interviewer: Okay. So, that was on the sweep, yeah.
Veteran: Okay, on the battalion sweep. We were at Hill 400. You have heard of Hill 400, right?
Interviewer: I have heard of a lot of hills.
Veteran: Yeah, we were there. And we found graves of North Vietnamese soldiers. We dug
our—we were supposed—we were sweeping that area to find out where some were left over.
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:02:29)
Veteran: But there was no more leftover Vietnamese. Instead, we found graves of these North
Vietnamese. There was about 15, 20 bodies in these graves.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: I didn’t bother to really get close enough to, you know. I didn’t want any part of that.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, what was the terrain like that you were operating in? What
kind of country were you moving and patrolling in?
�Veteran: Hills, rice paddies…
Interviewer: Did you get up into the mountains?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, we were like I say, the Ho Chi Minh Trail is right up there.
Interviewer: Yeah, well that is sort of over in Laos and coming out of Laos in Vietnam.
Veteran: We were there.
Interviewer: But you were up along the border in that area?
Veteran: Yep, up around that area. I think that’s what it was. You know, because—although we
came—could we have walked that far from Phu Bai?
Interviewer: You probably wouldn’t have walked the whole way. You would have taken a
helicopter for part of the way.
Veteran: Well, we did go by some helicopter but…I don’t know. Maybe we did.
Interviewer: Well, there were a lot of—well, and there were branches of the Ho Chi Minh
Trail that kind of come into the South Vietnam. One goes down to the A Shau Valley and
there is other places in there. But anyway, but you were in some mountain country, hill
country, lowlands with rice paddies… A bunch of different kinds of terrain.
Veteran: Yeah. That’s where we were ambushed that first time, that ambush that I was—
experienced. I wasn’t involved in the ambush, you know, but it was on that hill. In that—we
were up—and I was sitting in the mountain with my feet hanging and that’s where that chaplain
�and I were sitting and then we heard the chopping by the Marines—the head—they were cutting
the head of the…
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Alright, I just wanted to make sure we had that in there.
Veteran: I don’t know. Maybe that was at the Ho Chi Minh Trail?
Interviewer: Well, could be. Yeah and…
Veteran: I told you…
Interviewer: Well, the different—well, it will be possible—it’s possible to trace the route of
2nd of the 9th and kind of know where it was when exactly and tie it in. But yeah. But
basically, you are overall—you were in a variety of different kinds of areas. (00:04:44)
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you operate in any areas where they still had civilians?
Veteran: No. No, I just—the battalion that I was attached to had been known—all the burning of
the villages? This kept—the battalion did it. These are the ones that did it. You know, and by that
time, I was at Da Nang when they were doing that. But that—by the time I got there, they were
sent up north. They were sent up north to the…
Interviewer: Okay, because there were areas up there where they had taken the civilians
out. I mean, there were still some up in the hills, some that—
Veteran: No, I never…
Interviewer: But you were—
�Veteran: Well, I did. This is—saw some. We were in one of the…It looked like a city, you know,
looked like a city. We were walking on this Highway 1. I think that’s what they called it:
Highway 1.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, along the coast of Quang Tri—either south of Quang Tri or near
Hue or…
Veteran: Yeah. We were walking there. But—and I—we saw some of those civilians. But we—
there was not—there was no fighting there.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: No, nothing.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you ever work at all with the South Vietnamese military?
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you ever see them?
Veteran: If I did—I probably did but I am not—they are not significant enough for me to
remember, you know?
Interviewer: Alright. How would you characterize the morale of the Marine units that you
were serving with?
Veteran: The which one?
Interviewer: The morale.
Veteran: The Marines?
Interviewer: The morale of the Marines, yeah. Their attitudes. (00:06:17)
�Veteran: Very good. Very good. All of them were in a very good mood. Although, one of them
that we had eventually got cracked up, you know, and I had to send him back to the rear. We
were out somewhere in the village. Not in the village…Around a mountain close to the rice
paddies. And I heard this howl like a dog. And I thought oh my god, the—you know, we just got
out of rice and rice paddies. And I have very poor direction, so I travel with the radioman all the
time. I was close to him, violating the 15-meter rule.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And I was falling down in the rice paddies and the guy came down along with me at the
time. And he’s like, “Get off me.” And when we got up there, all of a sudden, we hear this—I
hear this sound like a dog howling. What would you think when you hear something like that?
That somebody is around there close to you, you know? I said, “Oh man…” But it turned out, he
called me. He said, “Doc, come here.” So, I went in there and saw this guy. This guy was just
rocking on that ledge, or wherever he is sitting, cracked up. And later on, I found out that he felt
guilty because he’s one of the Marines that have probably raped some of the civilians and burned
the hooches, burned all these villages.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: And he cracked up. But what I heard from the other Marines, you know, this is one of
the Marines that did it. And it’s too bad but I have to send him back to the rear.
Interviewer: Sure. (00:08:12)
Veteran: I had to call the medevac in the middle of the night. I called them. You know, that’s the
worst you could do is get somebody a—get the medevac. So, they asked me in one of the
situations that I was in, because they could see that the helicopter light right away.
�Interviewer: Yeah, that was not standard practice to send those helicopters in at night.
Veteran: No, but they did, you know. The…You know, maybe I didn’t call—maybe I didn’t call
a medevac on that one. I called the medevac right at the—where the defoliation happened where
1/9 got wiped out. And when we relieved them, we got a couple of Marines that…That really
bad. This one laceration on the neck, you know, with a—but I was able to stop the bleeding with
that one. And the other one, I don’t remember that one. And he threw a grenade, and it went back
to him. He threw a grenade; it went back to him. It hit a tree and went back to him. And the
captain asked me, he said, “What do you want? Do you think we should medevac him?” And
“What happened to him?” “I think he may have something else beside that, you know.” And I
said, “I think we better medevac, get this guy out of here. Get this guy out of here.” So, what we
did is I had—we had a party of Marines take these two guys way away from us so that the light
would be a good deal in there. And we medevaced in the night.
Interviewer: And do they get them out?
Veteran: They took them out.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: The chopper came in, but I don’t even know whatever happened to the guy, to those
two guys.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you finish your Vietnam tour with that company, or did you
get reassigned before you left? (00:10:15)
Veteran: Okay, I finished it. My time was up in July, okay, July of ’67. My time was up in July
of ’67. Well, in between that, the captain was going to be transferred. Okay. In July…Well,
�maybe even…Yeah, July, somewhere in there, he knows he is going to be replaced. So, he came
over to me. He said, “Hey doc,” he said, “why don’t you stay with me?” Now, he is asking me to
extend in the line of fire, you know. “Why don’t you stay with me?” he said, “I know what you
can do. I don’t know what these bozos coming in is going to do.” Yeah, I like this guy, you
know. This is the thing, you know. You probably—I don’t know if you’ll hear this from anyone
there, other soldiers that you do an interview. So, I told myself: I like this guy and I sure would
love to repay him, you know, because he seen all the wrong around that I did, in spite of all of
this, without taking a bullet, without even thinking about what is going to happen to me, you
know. So, I told him, I said, “You know, I will make you a deal.” I said, “I will make you a
deal.” I said, “Send me on another R and R to Manila and when I come back, I will stay here
with you until they pull you back out.” “Oh,” he said, “We can arrange that.” He called the guy
to get back down with the plane the same day. The same day, he send me to Manila.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, so I was one of the probably few guys there that were able to go on R and R
twice. Normally you only have one R and R.
Interviewer: Yeah. Not without good connections. (00:12:12)
Veteran: I had to do—I was able to do it twice because of that thing.
Interviewer: And you knew where to go. You went to Manila both times.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, I went. My grandparents were still alive at that time.
�Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And so, when I came back, I came back to him and fulfilled my promise.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, I extended my time but luckily, he is—that guy was really smart. That Captain
Long was really smart. And I guess the top brass in Phu Bai have a use for him there.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, about two weeks later, they pull him out. So, now I am free. I was free but I stayed
two weeks of my time there. And luckily, that happened within my two weeks of time.
Yeah…And but how many people would you hear that extended their time in the field?
Interviewer: I have met some who have extended for different reasons, and some of them
went back in the field. And some of them got two R and Rs if they had the right
opportunities.
Veteran: Oh.
Interviewer: But it is unusual.
Veteran: Yeah, you know, and I said, “Oh man.” I always got—I had no regrets about any of
those, you know.
Interviewer: Alright. Now when you think about the year that you spent in Vietnam, are
there other particular stories or memories that you have that you haven’t talked about yet?
�Veteran: Well, I had some contact with a—with the RMK company, a U.S. company that had
some Filipino surveyors, surveying some areas, you know. So, I was able to hang out with them
on the outside—outside of the compound.
Interviewer: Wait, hang out with who?
Veteran: With the Filipino civilians.
Interviewer: Oh okay. So, you did see some of the civilians. (00:14:08)
Veteran: Yeah, I see some civilians. I was able to hang out every so often because of the
surveyors. They are under contract to RNK.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And you know, we played mahjong with—eat some Filipino food with them, you
know.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you are going out with Filipino contractors and hanging out with
them.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. That’s good. Alright. So, we get now—originally when we were doing
your paperwork, you said you were in Vietnam from October of ’66 to October of ’67. Is
that right? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
�Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, right exactly to the day. But the night before I was leaving, it was scary because
there were a lot of rounds…That’s what I hear. And one of the rounds I thought I was incoming.
It was an outgoing round but boy, I ran to the bunker. I ran to the bunker. And I was the only one
at that, you know…I—that’s another thing too: when the people are ready to go, they become
very cautious, you know. Yep, I run to the bunker. After a while, I was looking around. There
was nobody running except me. And I said—I laughed at myself. I say, “You fool.” It was
very—there is some humor in some of the things that, you know, that we did there. But not too
many. Otherwise…And I was never…you know, it never dawned on me that I was going to get
killed. All the time I was there, I thought—I know—I was coming back, you know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Whereas, in Cuba I was more tense, and I was more—it’s more harder for me in Cuba
than in Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you finish your tour in Vietnam, you come back to the
United States.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Are you planning on staying in the Navy at that point? (00:16:08)
Veteran: Well, I had ten and a half years. Okay, I got—they said they would transfer me to
Cherry Point, North Carolina. All of my requests was the Philippines. They transferred me to
Cherry Point, North Carolina.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: And I didn’t even know where Cherry Point, North Carolina was until I go there. Well,
while I was there, see I was going to night school. I was attending night school, taking some
courses to fill out the credits that I need for medical technology.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Well, one of my classmates was the Command—Lieutenant Commander in charge of
personnel. Well, him and I got along really well while we were classmates. But the chief that he
was—that he had in charge of the personnel department…At the time he was chief, I was E-6.
Him and I…He’s just a typical redneck. You know? Him and I just didn’t see eye to eye. He’s an
alcoholic and all, you know, just a…So, I requested to go to lab tech school. The regular lab
tech.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know, the one that you see, you know. And so, they send out—I got the orders, but
they want—my transfer is in December. The start of school was January 6th. This moron wanted
to transfer me December—middle of December. I said—so I asked him, I said, “Can you transfer
me on the 1st of December, so I don’t have to be looking for a house for Christmas? I have
two…” We had one kid and my wife was about to deliver. My wife was about to deliver. He
said, “No.” He said, “You are going to reenlist.” My enlistment was expiring. “You are going to
reenlist anyway regardless of when I transfer you.” I said, “Okay.” So, the commander and I
were talking at the classroom.
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:18:16)
Veteran: I mentioned this to him. He said, “Why didn’t you come to me?” By that point, I
have—I have already gone out. I was decided to go out. The orders were already there for our
�goods to be picked up to be sent here to Milwaukee. So, he said, “Why didn’t you come to me?”
He said, “I could have transferred you even long before that.” I said, “Well, I see you got
somebody in charge of your department, I thought he knows what he’s doing, you know. So,” I
said, “I didn’t want to bother you with something like that.” You know? Boy, he chewed that guy
out.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: He chewed that guy out. You know, and he said, “Well, I’d like you to stay.” I said,
“Too late.” I said, “I got 50 day—I mean, 90 days to reenlist.”
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
Veteran: I got 90 days to reenlist. I said, “If it doesn’t work out…” because I never—I was really
mad at the Navy at that point because of them sending me to North Carolina, you know. I said, “I
don’t really, you know, I have no intention of staying.” At that point already, I was wanting a
nice civilian life. So, I got a job as a—at the time, I was only a lab assistant. I got a job at the
Milwaukee [unintelligible] as a lab assistant. And but then, Hong Kong Flu hit all of the family,
you know. Jeanie got Hong Kong Flu. The young—Becky…I mean John, our oldest son, got the
Hong Kong Flu. We only had two kids at the time. Becky and I got the Chicken Pox. So, we are
all sick. And I just got out of the service. I don’t have any—if you don’t work, you don’t have
any vacation, you have no money. So, we got bills to pay. I said, “You know, if I can get back
that school, maybe we should go back. I will talk to the recruiter and see if we can get—check
with Washington if I can get that school back. Then we could pay all these bills, you know.”
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:20:33)
�Veteran: We didn’t have any—much savings at the time, you know. Heck, I was 31 years old
you know, with nothing saved, nothing—you know? So, I went back and talked to the officer.
They called Washington. They didn’t even know I left. They didn’t even know I left. This is
already in December. So, Washington told them that that school I was supposed—that class I
was supposed to go to is already full, but they could put me in August. I said, “Is that a guarantee
that you’ll do it?” “It’s a guarantee that you are going to go to that school.”
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, I told to my wife, I said, “August? Yeah, we could go to—I will go in now then
maybe they will put me on a busywork schedule here, just picking up cigarette butts and all that
thing, you know.” So, I went back and reenlisted December 30th. December 30th, I reenlisted. I
joined the reserve in the meantime in between. I joined the reserve so I wouldn’t have any
broken service.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, I joined back. And I asked the lieutenant, I said, “What do you want me to do?”
Well, he said, “Nothing. Just stay home. I will give you a call. Just call me every morning, let me
know that you are still around. And when the orders come in—” we were waiting for my orders,
“—the orders come in, I will call you.” So, I went ahead and continued to work at the
[unintelligible]
Interviewer: Right. (00:22:25)
Veteran: --at the same time I was already getting my salary from the Navy. You know, so…I—
then they, in March, I got the order in March. So, I went from December to almost three months.
�Didn’t work in March, so almost three months. In March, they sent me back to—they send me to
Batista, at the research station in Batista.
Interviewer: Okay, so in Maryland.
Veteran: In Maryland. Awaiting for that class in June. So, I work at the research station there for
a while. And then, when that class in August started, they called—I got my orders to transfer
back there. In the meantime, the guy that trained me at Great Lakes in—I mean, the guy that was
the director of the laboratory at Great Lakes, who was responsible for the medical assistant
program, became the head of the training section of the pathology department in Maryland. And
at the time, he was soliciting people with the credits to college degree to apply for medical
technology program. It was just a higher level…
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: …than the—okay. So, I said, “Well, you know, I got—” he didn’t promise anything. He
said, “I will try my best to get you guys to take the national exam, the board exam, after you
complete this training.” He said, “I don’t want to—the ASAP, the CAP, to approve this to get
their approval because I don’t want them controlling the curriculum of the program.” And he was
a successful study of the CAP at the time, you know. So, I said, “You know, I got nothing to
lose, you know. I got a lot to gain but nothing to lose.” (00:24:38)
Veteran: I said, “So, I will apply.” I went ahead and applied. There were 21 applicants. All of
them with bachelor—two of us had a degree. We had over 90 credit hours. And out of the 21, a
lot of them are English majors so they didn’t have enough sciences in the…But I had a couple of
them with a master’s in microbiology. You know? And I was 1 of the 11 that was picked. The
other guy got picked too, the one with the, you know. And of the 11, 2 dropped out. They didn’t
�want to—they didn’t want the hassle of going through that program. They got—they were scared
of the—because he said this is going to be a very intensive study. This was really intensive
study. You know, unless you are—I read more books in that course than I have ever read in my
life, you know. You know, and so I went through it for a whole year. And that’s when I met, you
know, I met some other high energy people. One of them became President Nixon’s doctor.
Doctor Jacoby. And I was pretty tight with that Doctor Jacoby. You know, anywhere he seen me,
anywhere we met, he always stopped and shake my hands and, you know. And shake my hands.
He was very—I guess he—when I worked, I gave the best job that I have in my work, you know.
And that’s the same thing that happened with anybody that carried a tool, you know. And plus,
me going to school and doing all of that, he was very impressed that I had found this time to do
this. You know? So, at the time he was only a commander when I met him at Great Lakes. Then
he became a captain and then he became an admiral and became Nixon’s doctor.
Interviewer: Right. (00:26:47)
Veteran: You know? So…I got accepted to that program. I went to the program for a whole year.
And I finished at there too. One out of nine, I finished there. But we did—they gave us a sample
exam like the ASAP exam. I think I was 2nd out of the 9.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: I beat the other guys. You know, so I thought oh boy, this is a snap. This is a snap. This
is solely going to be like this. It’s a snap. It turned out much worse than what was…That year,
the ASAP was moving from Muncie to Chicago. Yeah, so they were all in a mess, you know.
And the exam that they gave us that year was really hard. The cutting score was only 88. You
�know? I said, “Oh man, it was really hard.” I didn’t find out that I pass it. I took it in November.
I didn’t find out until June.
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: And I found out I scored 111. So, I said, “Oh man, that…” So, barely…So, I became a
medical—I was a—you know, became a registered medical technologist. And so, now I have
something to market outside when I leave the Navy, you know?
Interviewer: Right. (00:28:22)
Veteran: So, in the meantime, Southern Illinois University came into the—to Camp Lejeune
campus. They started that program, the on-campus program, they had one that actually started
that I think. Because other universities eventually started doing it too here. And so, they came in.
I gave them my transcript, whatever I had. They said, “Okay, you are qualified for that 18
months program and you get a bachelor’s in healthcare administration.” You know? I said, “Oh,
I’ll take it. You know, I will go ahead and go for it. I got nothing to lose. I have more to gain
than to lose, you know.” So, but Jeanie was really saddled with the kids. At the time, we already
had four kids, you know. So, she was taking care of the kids while I was at—most of the time.
Plus, I was working part time, you know. And I got my degree in hospital—in that healthcare
administration when I left Camp Lejeune.
Interviewer: Okay. So, what year was that?
Veteran: 1978. February 1978.
Interviewer: Alright.
�Veteran: And when—I got a job waiting at the Milwaukee County Hospital when, you know—
that’s that chief that I was telling you I got run in. We almost got into a fistfight at the time. And
I embarrassed him in front of a whole bunch of young kids. You know what, I don’t know what
started it. He said something…He would have decked me or something, you know, the way I
was—at the time, I was E-7, he was E-8. He was the officer of the day, I was the—I mean, he is
the officer of the day, I was the chief of the day at the hospital administration lobby, you know.
So, I told him, I said, “In our younger years,” I said, “I would have put you in the hospital.” I
said, “You know,” I said, “you know why you are staying in the Navy? You got nothing to offer
outside.” I said, “You have got nothing. You may be the best personnel officer in the world,” I
said, “but without that piece of paper, you ain’t worth a damn. You know, I got something I can
market. I don’t need you. I don’t need anyone of you to do anything for me.” (00:30:58)
Interviewer: So, when did you have this encounter with him? Was that in ’78?
Veteran: That—this is ’78, before I retired.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Before I retired.
Interviewer: I guess you…Okay, yeah, okay because that is—so, basically now you—so,
now you really—
Veteran: No, maybe even late ’77, right around.
Interviewer: Yeah. Right.
Veteran: After late ’77, I put my application in to retire because I heard you need to put it in a
year ahead of time, see.
�Interviewer: Okay. So, you have lined up yourself a proper civilian job. And you know
where you are going and so—
Veteran: Yeah. And he doesn’t have anything. And he is nothing but an alcoholic, you know, just
a…He made E-9 because he is a bootlicker, you know.
Interviewer: But you have gone off—okay, so now did you have a career in hospital
administration? Is that what you did?
Veteran: No. I went to medical technology because I already had the experience there.
Interviewer: Right. Okay.
Veteran: And then I went to [unintelligible] for the master’s in hospital administration.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And I was one semester—one credit short to get my master’s, but I got mad with the
dean. Him and I got—you know, I was accused of unethical research. You know, I was—I
wanted to break the union that came into Milwaukee County for medical technologists. But it
was really 49 to 51 split, you know, in favor of the union. But a lot of these people claimed they
didn’t really want the union. You know? (00:32:32)
Veteran: So, I wanted to break the union but how do you go about that? It’s been done. I found
out later on it has been done because I did a lot of this research. And there is a group in
Philadelphia that got out of the unionization, the medical unionization. But they went to court.
They went to court. So, in my research, I found this out. But for me to do the research, my
advisor advised me to survey the medical technologists under assumed name.
Interviewer: Oh…
�Veteran: You know, because if I put my name, they know me. I was supervisor of the blood bank
already at that point, see. I was supervising the blood bank there already. You know? So, he said,
“Go and survey them.” He said, “There is a practice survey, check the survey.” Everything
passed, everything that I did passed. But then, somebody from laboratory administration went to
the dean and, “Find out who this person is.” They didn’t know. Well, I was on my second reader,
and he held the paper, but they didn’t tell me why. They didn’t tell me why they didn’t. So,
before the end—the semester was almost ending, you know. I called them. I did call them
because I wanted to see how I was doing, you know. But he should have given me the reason
why he did that. I could have—I would have went to him right then. So, I called him and he told
me that was the reason and so we started—I went to his office. He called me to his office, and we
talked. He said, “Some—” I said, “You call it unethical research? Why would your professor
advise me to use the assumed name?”
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:34:28)
Veteran: “If I had known that I would have used my name.” So, we got an understanding that it
was…Now, when he asked the professor, he said that I must have heard—he didn’t actually
directly accepted it. But he said he said that I must have advised him to do that, you know. But
you know, so—but at that point, I was already mad.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, the dean said, “Well, if you want, you can go ahead and finish it, but you are going
to—you are out of time. You are going to have to start again.” I said, “I am not going to pay you
another money for you to be able to control what I am doing.”
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: I said, “Give me something I can control, and I will do it. Give me maybe two more
courses instead of the thesis. I will go back and finish it. Otherwise, I don’t need that thing.”
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: I already reached what I wanted to do. You know? So, that’s where I left it and I left it
there.
Interviewer: So, you went back to medical technology—
Veteran: I had always been in medical technology. At that point, I was already promoted to
supervisor of the blood bank. You know, I started some of the first stuff here in the city. You
know, like have you ever heard of Doctor Messerschmidt in Oregon? In Washington State? At
the cancer center? He developed a procedure. See, I was doing a job that no medical technologist
was doing. I was the only medical technologist. I had to train some of the other medical
technologists because I wanted the medical technologists to learn it because it could be done by
medical technologists. Usually, it is done by the nurses. And I was the only one that was doing it.
So, I trained some of these people. Well, Messerschmidt came out with this procedure where it
was a column absorption. (00:36:47)
Veteran: It was a column absorption where the—it’s an immunology thing, but the anti—the IgG
are absorbed by the column and the good IgG is then sent back to the patient. It’s a very effective
ITP, you know. And it came to Milwaukee because one of the things that he was selling was it
could cure some of the liver cancers. And I was doing this process—procedure—for the, you
know, I set up the section at the county.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now the main focus of our interview here is really your
military career. We have now kind of—
�Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: --come to the end of that and we see that it has launched you into a career in
medical technology.
Veteran: Yeah, that’s where I ended up.
Interviewer: And that’s the field that you stayed in. Alright. And basically, I’d like—so we
have kind of gotten to where we need to go for the purposes of our project. You have got a
truly remarkable story here. When you think back about the time that you spent in the
Navy…I mean, I guess you have told us a lot about this already, but how would you sum it
up? What do you think you took out of the Navy service or how did it effect you? (00:38:03)
Veteran: I grew up, I think. I think I grew up. I really…I think whatever we have now—we have
a very successful family, I believe. You know? And I have 9 grandchildren, 4 or 5 of them
finished college. One is in a PhD program at the WUM. This one just got his bachelor’s in
biochemistry and is going to be in the Air Force. And I have all the kids finish their college, you
know. So, I got that without the discipline that I learned from the Navy, that…you know, that
wouldn’t be there. I don’t know. Maybe it could have been better because I could have been a
millionaire in the Philippines as a gopher for the politician, you know. You know, I have my
uncle died and left his children, 6 children, a million dollar apiece in cash, plus the properties
that they all own in Manila, you know. And one of them became a billionaire in Manila
[unintelligible]. So, we don’t know, but whatever I have now, you know, is because of the Navy.
Because of the Navy.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to share the story
today.
�Veteran: Yeah. And you know, I hope there is something in there that could help maybe the
other veteran that… (00:39:41)
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/841b2544ae8f9d19e09916f8146faf6d.mp3
3bf1cdf3c289b919b64bf256cb7af5db
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_NazarioM2333V
Creator
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Nazario, Moises G
Date
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2019-08
Title
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Nazario, Moises (Interview transcript and audio, part 2), 2020
Description
An account of the resource
Moises Nazario finished his tour with his company in Vietnam in July 1967. After helping his captain in the last few months before the captain was to be transferred, Nazario was sent back to the United States in October 1967. He was then transferred to Cherry Point, North Carolina, where he attended medical technology courses at night school. He reenlisted on December 30th, 1967, and was sent to work at the research station in Batista, Maryland in March 1968. That August, Nazario began laboratory tech classes and applied for an intensive medical technology program. He was accepted into the program, passed the exam, and became a registered medical technologist. He then completed his bachelor’s degree in healthcare administration at Southern Illinois University, taking classes at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. He left Camp Lejeune in February 1978 to work at the Milwaukee County Hospital and work toward his master’s degree in hospital administration. However, just when he was about to finish his master’s program, he was accused of unethical research by the dean. Fortunately, he was able to continue his career in medical technology and work as a supervisor at a local blood bank. He believes that the Navy taught him discipline that helped him and his family become successful.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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Sound
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sound/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
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In Copyright
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4611680583ee7e7e0714e5f7f120a4a.pdf
63dc17d120ff2bcbd0b12d62309ca012
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Moises Nazario
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interview length: 1:15:18
[Note: The opening section of the recording is conversation preparatory to the start of the
interview, and is not transcribed here, which is why this transcript begins six minutes into the
interview.]
Interviewer: So, you are officially beginning the interview at this point. We are talking
today with Moises Nazario of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The interviewer is James Smither of
the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. And we are actually at the
2019 Milwaukee Irish Fest. And well, Mr. Nazario, you are not exactly Irish yourself… Tell
us where and when you were born. (00:06:42)
Veteran: I was born in Manila, Philippines, on October 25th, 1936.
Interviewer: Alright. And did you grow up there?
Veteran: I grew up there up to my 21st birthday.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you were living in the Philippines as a child during World War 2.
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Now, what—
�2
Veteran: I saw that too.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I saw some of it.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, what was your family—what did your family do for a living
when you were a kid?
Veteran: The job descriptions over there is really not commensurate to what we have here. And
my grandmother—my grandfather is a court stenographer. And my grandmother was…she is in a
buy and sell business of jewelry.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And she inherited some money from her parents. She’s pretty well to do.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: At that point, she, you know…And then she had one store, a kiosk store—a clothing
store that they owned. They have a few of them. And that sustained them for whatever…
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, did you live with your grandparents?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I—after I—when I was born, my mother left me with them and took off and, you know,
just…
Interviewer: Yeah. (00:08:16)
�3
Veteran: She was an actress there and she pursue—she left and pursued the acting career, or
whatever it is, you know. And I didn’t meet her until late in life.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Maybe I was already 10-12 years old.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Now, so what do you remember about the war starting and the
Japanese coming in?
Veteran: Well, my uncle was in the Bataan Death March. So, they were there. And I didn’t really
know—I think I was… I was 6 years old. I was 6 or 7 years old…
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: …when—1941, so I was 5 years old. And I remember when the Japanese took over. I
remember the air fights, the dog fights. I used to watch them in the street. I would stand there in
the street watching them, just like in the movies. And there was a guy there that—Jonathan
Wainwright was one of the generals that—and I always thought before one of the pilots there
was Jonathan Wainwright. I didn’t know that Wainwright was in Corregidor with MacArthur.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And then there’s a Filipino fighter, William Moore, I think, he was one of the
aces…Filipino aces fighting there. I never saw any plane getting shot down, though.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now do you remember the Japanese coming in and occupying
the city?
Veteran: Yeah. They…It wasn’t really—there was really not…All I remember is they are right in
the city right away. I don’t remember them coming. I don’t—I never saw them come in.
�4
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, there wasn’t any fighting. The Americans had left.
Veteran: Well the city—there was no fighting in the city.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
Veteran: There was no fighting in the city. But the fighting happened in the previous year.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. But now the Japanese have taken over. And now, they rule the
Philippines for the next several years. (00:10:29)
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Do you remember what life was like or was your life effected at all by the
Japanese being there?
Veteran: Not—my family wasn’t really directly affected, other than my uncle with—he was able
to escape the Bataan Death March and came back to the house.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we took care of him. He had malaria at the time. I remember the Japs as being
cruel. You know? I remember going to the province with my aunt and I was sitting next to my
aunt. One of the Japanese soldiers grabbed me by the arm. This is maybe about ’42, 1942 or ’43.
Grabbed me by the arm and yanked me out of—get out of the seat so he could sit next to my
aunt. You know? And there was a good Japanese officer—looked like a Japanese officer; at the
time, I didn’t really know anything much—a good Japanese officer saw what he did. And this
officer came over to this guy and called the guy and slapped the hell out of this guy. You know,
and he is bowing to the officer. And the officer set me back down with her. But that’s my
exposure to them.
�5
Interviewer: Yeah. So, some of them were—some of them behaved properly and some of
them didn’t.
Veteran: Probably. You know, probably.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: But my exposure showed that, you know. This one time. You know, but the problems,
from what I hear from stories from some of the people we know, they are actually killing people.
Actively killing people.
Interviewer: But within the city, I mean your grandparents could basically go about their
business? Your grandmother could run her kiosks or…? (00:12:18)
Veteran: Well, they didn’t have that kiosk yet at the time.
Interviewer: Okay. Okay.
Veteran: They—she was selling jewelry.
Interviewer: Okay. Okay.
Veteran: Buying and selling jewelry. And that supported us, so we were able to have a fairly
decent meal.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, with that…Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. And then do you remember the Americans coming back?
Veteran: Oh yeah. That was very memorable to me. I remember right in the city where I live,
they were marching in two columns: one of the street—on each side of the street. You know,
�6
they were coming in and initially before this happened, there was a truck loaded with Japanese
and Filipino traitors screaming, “Ha! You guys are going to be under us for more years!” They
said, “They are coming right behind us!” and we got the U.S. troops after that. That truck
disappeared. I never know where it went, you know. But the guys—the U.S. troops—this is in
the afternoon, maybe around 4 o’clock in the afternoon. And when we saw that as a kid—they
were giving out chocolate bars. So, as a kid I run out there, “Victory! Victory! Victory!” You
know, we were really excited, you know. And we followed them all the way to the main street.
Quite a long ways. Probably about 10 blocks away from where I lived. You know, 12 blocks
away. You know? And right around that one area, there’s a hotel where they have a 50-caliber
machine gun, a Japanese setup there, and they started firing. And that—in the meantime, some of
the troops were taking some of the booby traps…Some of the troops were taking some of the
booby traps out on the road. You know? Some of the booby traps on the road. And when they
start firing, the soldiers told us to go back home. You know, they did want us to go back. At that
point, I didn’t know at the time, that they had gone—see, that’s separating the city from the
southern part of Manila. The bridges—all the bridges—
Interviewer: Right. (00:14:47)
Veteran: --they blew away all the bridges. You know, they blew away the bridges and one of my
uncle’s wife’s family lives on that part. And they—because of this war, you know. And they
started this shelling, actually. And where the U.S. setup is maybe about 3 blocks away from
where I was. And you could hear the mortar—the rounds—coming in, you know, just out…So,
we were—they would just watch—we didn’t do anything unusual, we just stayed in the house,
you know. We continued playing in the street during the day, like what a kid does, you know.
Interviewer: So, how long did that shooting last?
�7
Veteran: Quite a while. Quite a while. And by the time it was over, there’s a lot of houses that
were destroyed in that area. And the one that landed right around the city hall—all the really
structured buildings that we had were all destroyed. You know, they were all destroyed. But I
didn’t—you know, being at that age, you know, you don’t really know, pay much attention. But
other than we know they are fighting. The fire fights—when they come back, there’s a lot of dog
fights. A few—once, I was out in this—to this store that sells candies, you know, things like that.
It’s the kind of store that’s all owned by Chinese, you know. And when this shooting started, we
ran out in the street and we saw this—all this thing that really, you know…And one of the 50caliber machine gun bullet landed in our house. My aunt was pregnant. There was—and she
delivered a baby then. It landed around the foot of the bed.
Interviewer: Wow. (00:16:44)
Veteran: Foot of the bed. You know? Yeah, and so, it was…At that point, I think I was maybe 8
years old already. Maybe 8 years old already. So, ’44? Yeah, I was 8 years old already. And that
one, I remember vividly because we named the book, ‘The Child Bombing.’ You know, that
was…He is still alive now. He is in Las Vegas. And we but, here, we didn’t do anything unusual.
We just used to go on with life. You know, if it hits you, it hits you. It doesn’t…
Interviewer: Alright. And then, did things quiet down a little bit after that? What are
you—as you are—now you are growing up and you are getting older…?
Veteran: Oh, the—another thing too, okay, when they came in…See, right where the U.S.
prisoners are held in Santo Tomas, I live close to that.
Interviewer: Okay.
�8
Veteran: I live close to that. Yeah, and around a block—south of—west of that, school—is
another school I went—where I went. You know, and we went to school that the Japanese used
as headquarters. When the fighting start, they were looting in there, you know. And being at that
age that—the concern at that point is the water. So, my first stop when I ran out was to go to that
building and get some of these canteen cans for water. (00:18:27)
Veteran: So, I ran into that school. The school—the building was on fire. I ran to the building.
There is a guy that I know that got killed, that wasn’t able to get out of there. Well, I was able to
get out, but then I got—I think I had almost a burned out movie projector, I had a bunch of
cans…You know? Maybe about 4 cans; 3 or 4 cans out there. And instead of coming back to—
going back to where I came in, I went to the Quezon Boulevard, the main street that is going
north and south. And in there, all the Japanese bodies was in there. And then oh, I will tell you, I
had to jump out of that thing. They scared the heck out of me. You know, all these dead bodies.
That’s one of the exciting things that at that time I remember. After that, you know, when all this
yelling start, everything was fine for what, you know…The water likes to—the water was the
one that…And the U.S. soldiers stationed some water bottles in that area and I was able to use
the can that—after I cleaned it up, I was able to use it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So now, once the excitement is over, now do you go back to going
to school regularly? Or what happens?
Veteran: Yeah, I went back to school. As a matter of fact, I went back to school and one of the
GI’s dropped a wallet. I don’t know who that GI is, and I never know who it belongs to. And
there’s some money that—really lots of money. Probably at least a couple hundred: $200-$300,
you know? I don’t know how much is in there. And being a young kid, honest young kid, I gave
that wallet to my teacher. After, I say, I didn’t know whatever happened to it, you know. But I
�9
turned it in. I said that somebody dropped this. I said maybe by now who…And I never heard
anything more about that. You know…And I never truly paid much attention to it because it
didn’t matter to me at the time, you know. Yeah, I was able to do what I wanted to do on my
grandma’s money.
Interviewer: Right. (00:20:56)
Veteran: I wasn’t really that concerned about any of that.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, you—not too long after that, the Philippines become
independent. You have your own country and so forth. How did you wind up in the United
States military?
Veteran: Oh, okay. I was in medical school.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I was a first year proper—see, you go to—in the Philippines, you go to undergraduate
school for 3 years.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And then you go to medical school.
Interviewer: So, when did you start medical school?
Veteran: I started in October. It was at the very end. I needed two and a half years of
intermediate to go to medical school. October 1957.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I left in July of 1958.
�10
Interviewer: Okay. So, you only went for like one year or part of one year?
Veteran: I had one semester. First semester.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: And I was—I played varsity basketball for the school. I got picked by the coach, but
then after when I got with…I—you know, at that age, at that time, I have a very restless mind.
You know? And I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t—I wanted to play basketball, I wanted to be a
doctor, I wanted…So, I decided well, maybe I will—I wanted to be in the Navy. I started
applying to the Navy actually in 1953, when I was in high school. (00:22:25)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But that didn’t—that disappeared from my mind for a while, but then I wanted—after
that, when I was in medical school, I said, “Well, maybe I could go ahead and apply for…”
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, had you gone to college already before medical school?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I had two and a half years of pre-med.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know?
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: And that’s what I used later on with the Navy.
�11
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Anyway, some of the people—I was given—they get—university, Southern Illinois
University gave me credit for some of it and finally got—I started college in 1955 and finally got
my bachelor’s in hospital administration in 1978.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But you went to school in the Philippines first. And so, you did
some pre-med there and then you at least started medical school. So, why did you leave
medical school? Were you just restless?
Veteran: To join the Navy.
Interviewer: Just—okay. Now, so was the United States Navy actively recruiting in the
Philippines?
Veteran: No, they have rumors that they are accepting people that live by that area that they
come to the city in. You know, it’s in the province. It’s only people that live in the province, and
they talk about this. So, while I was going to school, I have some classmates that were from that
area. So, I said, “Well, maybe I’ll write the letter.” So, I wrote the letter in I think maybe around
October of ’57.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I got the response in December saying that I need to get a physical. Yeah, they
accepted me.
Interviewer: Alright. So, where did you go to get a physical?
Veteran: At the Sangley Point.
Interviewer: Okay. So, there was an American base there?
�12
Veteran: Yeah, that’s where the biggest base that they went…That was the biggest base that
the—Navy base in the Far East.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. I guess the Americans talk about Subic Bay? Is that where—
(00:24:16)
Veteran: What? No—that’s one of them.
Interviewer: Okay. But this was bigger?
Veteran: This—yeah, Subic Bay is the biggest. Sangley Point is more an auxiliary. It’s a dry
dock. They use this at…
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, there’s an American base there so you are able to go there,
you get your physical. Now what happens?
Veteran: When I went there for the—I think sometime in March. I stopped—I didn’t register for
the second semester.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: I didn’t register because I didn’t know whether I was going to be there or not, you
know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, I didn’t register. So, some—March of ’78, I—
Interviewer: Or ’58.
�13
Veteran: Oh, ’58. March of ’58 I went to—for the physical. And they said, “Well, we will let you
know.” You know, I went back home. And not long after that, I got a letter that said you are
accepted to the Navy.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And you have to report July 25th.
Interviewer: Alright, now did they train you in the Philippines? Or did they send you to the
United States for training?
Veteran: They just took us there. They put out—just the busy work type thing. And on August
4th, they got—we were one of the groups that didn’t fly to the U.S. We were put in a—are you
familiar with the U.S. military transportation service? Military MSCs? Are you familiar with it?
It’s a ship like lots of other ships…
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: …that are owned by the Navy that ferry the dependents of soldiers back and forth.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:26:05)
Veteran: To the U.S.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Now, well—we were the…I don’t know if we were the first group, but we were the
group—one of the group—that boarded that ship from Sandy Point to the U.S. And we were at
sea for 17 days, you know. Now, maybe not 17 days. Almost 4 to 15 days.
Interviewer: Okay.
�14
Veteran: 15 days. We were—but as a recruit, we couldn’t get out of the ship. So, they stopped in
Hawaii, they stopped in Guam; we were stuck in the boat.
Interviewer: Well, they wouldn’t let you off. Okay. Now, was it a good—was the weather
good on the voyage or did you have storms?
Veteran: I got seasick. I got seasick and then I didn’t know at the time that I was seasick. I didn’t
know at the time I was seasick; you know. But the feeling…I was sweating. I was cleaning the
stairwell. “Damn,” I said, you know. And I didn’t find out that I was seasick until I was already
onboard the ship. Years later.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, where did you land in the U.S.?
Veteran: We landed in San Francisco.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: At Fort Mason.
Interviewer: Alright. And then what did they do with you after that?
Veteran: Nothing. We were just in a temporary holding.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And this was 0017 when we landed there. Then we flew out of San Francisco August
21st.
Interviewer: And where did you fly to?
Veteran: To San Diego; that’s where the bootcamp was.
Interviewer: Alright.
�15
Veteran: So, now at bootcamp, we would—we were low priority as a recruit. But the priority of
the other recruits were higher than us because at the time, Great Lakes was closed, the New York
Recruit Center was closed. And the only open training center was San Diego. So, the people
coming from this area were—had the priority with getting into the training right away.
Interviewer: So, you were kind of just waiting to be able to start? (00:28:14)
Veteran: And from August 21st, I didn’t get into a company until September, September 21st;
almost a month.
Interviewer: Okay. So, where—
Veteran: But we were just there doing busywork for that time, you know.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, were you together as a group of Filipinos who were going to
train together? Or were they going to—
Veteran: We…No, they separated all of us.
Interviewer: Okay, so they didn’t—they put you in other companies.
Veteran: Yeah. But there was maybe a couple, 2 or 3, in one company, you know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They separated us.
Interviewer: Alright. So, what was bootcamp like for you, once you started the training?
Veteran: I’ll tell you, I wanted to get the shirts. I wanted to get discharged when I was in
bootcamp. I got really—we got into a lot of fights just to get discharged. You know, we’d pick a
fight, so we’d get discharged. But no luck; we didn’t get discharged, you know. So, I figured
�16
damn, I gave up a good life for this? You know. And I finished but see, I don’t know if you are
aware that when the Filipinos are recruited, they are only recruited to be a steward. Are you
aware of that?
Interviewer: I wasn’t. I knew that that was true for a long time with the black sailors and
then that stopped. But yeah, I knew that they did use Filipinos as stewards, but that was
the only job you could have at that time?
Veteran: That’s right.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, and when you are in, you can change rate.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: If you are good enough for the—if you have a good officer that will—a more
humanitarian type officer. You know, but then you got some of these officer that thinks that they
own the world, you know, they own you. You know? (00:30:10)
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And so, I started…I went to steward school, you know. After bootcamp I went to
steward school. And one day they had us fill out a transfer sheet—a drill sheet—there was an
aircraft carrier that’s going to the WESTPAC of the USS Shangri-La. And I put all my requests
on that ship. I wanted to go back there. They sent me to Annapolis, Maryland.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, tell me a little bit about life in bootcamp. I mean, why—what
made bootcamp bad for you?
�17
Veteran: The discipline. Discipline. See, I was never really big on discipline, you know. I
became a little bit disciplinarian, you know, maybe because of what I learned. You know?
Interviewer: But I guess you grew up kind of on your own?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: You were just kind of out in the streets doing what you wanted.
Veteran: I actually…Yeah, because I never worked while I was back home. I never really…I
was, you know, in school. But see now one of the reasons I stayed in school is because…I still
stayed in school because my grandparents supported me. They gave me—they allow me to—
anything that I need. And maybe some once, you know…
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And if I leave school, I don’t know what they would have done.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, were you able to do all the physical stuff? The physical
training and those things?
Veteran: Oh yeah. There’s no problem there. You know, we are, you know, we are really
good…As a matter of fact, our company won some competitions that we were sent on a—
whoever win that week, they go on a picnic, you know? And that—we went maybe 3 or 4 times.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, talk a little bit about the steward school. What did you actually
learn in steward school? (00:32:15)
Veteran: Are you familiar with what the waiters do?
Interviewer: You should explain that because a lot of people might not have any idea.
�18
Veteran: Okay. Yeah. Well, the steward school was geared to train the Filipinos to serve with
high level people. It’s not just being a steward: everything that you do is by the book. You know,
like you pass your meat on the left, put your plate on the right. All this. You set all of the—they
teach you how to cook, just in case you have to cook for the officers. And mostly cooking and
serving, you know.
Interviewer: Okay. And how long did you spend in the steward school?
Veteran: Steward school? I don’t…I am not sure now. I don’t know if it’s…Of course, I got
transferred. I started in November and I got transferred in December. So, maybe about 6—4 to 6
weeks, maybe.
Interviewer: Okay. So not too long. Alright.
Veteran: Not too long.
Interviewer: And then you got transferred?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So where—what did you get transferred to?
Veteran: To a Naval Academy as a steward.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Have you ever seen the Naval Academy mess hall?
Interviewer: No.
Veteran: They seat about 5000 people.
Interviewer: Wow.
�19
Veteran: You’ve got all these Filipino stewards serving all of these midshipmen.
Interviewer: Alright. So, how long did you do that?
Veteran: Oh…From January ’59 to January ’61.
Interviewer: Okay, so 2 years.
Veteran: And I was transferred to a ship by that time.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, when you were working at the Naval Academy, were you living
on the base? (00:34:15)
Veteran: No. I—well, I lived at the APL. There’s a—we don’t have a barracks there. They have
a floating ship. I live on the APL.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, I live on the APL.
Interviewer: Onboard a ship.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. And did they have all of the stewards living together?
Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah. That thing is really something else. That ship doesn’t have an engine.
It’s a floating barracks. It’s a floating barracks, you know. Just a…
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Now, and do you have any particular memories of what it was
like to work at the Naval Academy? When you think of that time, what do you think
about?
�20
Veteran: Oh, the Naval Academy is probably…I would have liked to have seen one of my kids
or even my grandkids—he almost went, you know, went there. I would have liked—I liked the
academy. I liked the way the midshipmen live, you know, the way they were…It’s hard life.
Okay? It’s a hard life, but it’s not all work. There’s lots of fun times at the…it’s really…I don’t
know how to explain it, but it’s really good.
Interviewer: Alright. So, were you treated well by the petty officers?
Veteran: No. No. No, they are not—well, they…I used to get in trouble almost every day
because of that, you know. I had some guys, you know, remember now coming off the 2nd World
War, okay? Some of these people couldn’t even read and write. And some of these are your boss.
What do you expect from those kind of people?
Interviewer: So, some of the petty officers in the Navy who were supervising you were like
that?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: And I was always in trouble almost every day. I was almost—I went extra duties.
Scrubbing all of that wall, all of the marks out of the wall every day. You know? And but I still
wanted to get out at the time, you know. But then, you know, you do something stupid, you
know. You do something stupid here, they keep me in longer.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you—but you do that for 2 years, and now you are
transferred to a ship. (00:36:37)
�21
Veteran: Now I got transferred in January. I went to the commissioning school at Rhode Island
because the ship was a brand-new ship.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, they had to send you all to learn all of this thing. And we…I was in Rhode Island
from January until June maybe?
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And we went aboard the ship.
Interviewer: And what ship was this?
Veteran: USS Sampson, DDG-10. A guided missile destroyer.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: The ship, it’s new at that time. I don’t think they ever—it took them a long time to get it
really working. And it was funny: when we were moving our training group in Cuba when we
were doing the briefing…You know, they fire all these missiles. They got the pre-training people
observers. And part of the missile comes back to the ship. It really is funny. You know, and
but…it ended well. We had a…we had some officers that—well, I was okay, fine, with the
officers that we had there. And it was, you know…That’s where the—I started working on trying
to get out of the stewardry because at that point, I said, “I really don’t want to be a steward.” You
know?
Interviewer: Right. And did any—were any of the officers on that destroyer?
Veteran: Not one. Not on that one, no. But it wasn’t long I was there before it was, after it was
commissioned, because I went back on release with leave in ’62, in June of ’62. So, it—before
�22
June that it was commissioned. Or immediately. And I got to—when I went to the Philippines,
when I came back, I went back to Boston. We were in Boston at the time.
Interviewer: Right. (00:38:47)
Veteran: I went back to Boston and they put me on the USS Johnston. It’s the DD-821.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was that just a regular destroyer or…?
Veteran: Yeah, regular destroyer.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: An older destroyer, 821. And that’s where I started to get, you know…When I got back,
we were drinking and all these things you know. Some of the officers are just a redneck, you
know. Just really really…you know. And we were—the ship was on leave of FRAM job. Have
you ever heard of the term FRAM? It’s Fleet Rehabilitation and Modernization program.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They—so, we were living in a barracks there because we worked on the ships during
the day, taking all the asbestos thing out and replacing it with, I don’t know, whatever they
replace it with.
Interviewer: Okay. And where were you based? Was this in Boston or somewhere else?
Veteran: In Boston.
Interviewer: Still in Boston, okay.
�23
Veteran: Boston. And we were there…oh, from the time I came there in June or July. I was in the
Philippines for a month. July to maybe sometime in October. Because we pull out to go on the
Cuban Missile Crisis blockade.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:40:15)
Veteran: That’s where we pulled out of. But in the meantime, I was in trouble there. I was
AWOL when the people pulled out. I was AWOL for 4 days, you know, and…But I had no
intention of leaving. I wasn’t—I know I had a pending court martial. If I go back, they will—I
know I will be disciplined. Not the court marital—Captain’s Mast.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It’s just a minor thing at the time.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know, and if I go back, I know that I was going to be disciplined, so I decided I
will stay 4 days before we leave. I will stay out, you know, and then go back with all my
belongings at that time, because we weren’t going to end up going back to Boston. We were
going to Charleston for after—from there—from Charleston to Cuba. You know, it’s October
now.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you—the idea is you get back on the ship and they don’t have time
to deal with you, so you just get back onboard and sail with them?
Veteran: Oh, which one?
Interviewer: Well, you said you had talked—you went AWOL. You stayed off the ship for
a while.
�24
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, was that to avoid punishment?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah, because I knew—I figured I was going to be punished. And I figured if I go back
and they put me under citation, we will be at sea. So, I won’t be under—able to get—
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Anyway, but that trouble just keep going, following me wherever at that point, you
know. And everywhere. And when we went to Cuba, by the time we got to Cuba—see the
blockade started October…25th, I think. But we were in Charleston with them still not
sure…Maybe they are not sure about the fitness of the ship at the time because we just got out of
the yards. (00:42:10)
Interviewer: Right. Okay.
Veteran: So, when they finally decided, we went there…I don’t know, a couple of days to get
there. It was December 6th when we got to Cuba, and we started the blockade at that point. And
not long after that, that’s when they boarded the Russian trawlers, not long after that. Not our
ship, but we ended up…we ended up saving a Puerto Rican refrigeration ship. That one, we
were…all of us couldn’t even go in our bunk. But then—we were not allowed to stay in our bed
because we were trying to get all the water out of that ship. We were sleeping on the deck, you
know. And if we are not there, we go down to the battle station, you know. So, we couldn’t
sleep. And it was really rough. It was hard. It was really hard.
�25
Interviewer: Okay. You have met now the peak of the Cuban Missile Crisis. It’s October
1962. That’s when the final—the sort of the showdown happens and they…
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: And it ends. But it was building up a long time before that.
Veteran: Oh yeah. I didn’t know—I was unaware of that until Kennedy went on TV.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And I was able at that time—when that television thing came out.
Interviewer: Now, you said…So, basically, you are down there after that. Or were you—
Veteran: No, I was still in Boston. We were still in Boston.
Interviewer: Well, there was a lot of back and forth about what the Russians were doing in
Cuba. And we were sending ships down to a blockade before October. So…
Veteran: The whole flotilla went in there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Around…in October. And our group joined this flotilla in December.
Interviewer: Okay. But there was still a blockade going on around Cuba at that time?
Veteran: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you told me before we started the interview that you thought that
your service during the Cuban Missile Crisis, or that period, was sort of the scariest that
you have had. (00:44:23)
�26
Veteran: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: Why was it scary?
Veteran: Well, it…if it went down, none of us would be talking today. And every—sailorsthat
were there, I bet you, you know, feel the same way.
Interviewer: So, you were worried this might really be World War 3, or something like
that?
Veteran: Yeah…
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, by this time—at what point are you able to get out of
being a steward?
Veteran: Sure. Okay. When we came back from Cuba…When we came back from Cuba, I had a
gallon of different style type of whiskey. And at night, one of the—first night, I think I finished
one of that whiskey. And the chopper took me back to the ship. And this officer—he threatened
me, you know. And I got—in the meantime, I was getting mad. I was getting really mad.
Eventually, I hit the guy. I hit the—after I chased him all over the ship. He went down to the
engine room to get away from me. I hit the guy, you know, after the incident. And that one, I
went to court martial. I was court martialed. They sent me to the brig for 20 days.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And so, that’s when I—when I went in there, I said, “I don’t want to be a steward
anymore. Either you discharge me now,” I said, “or you change rate.” And the XO—he’s from
Milwaukee or used to be from Milwaukee…He used to see me almost every day in front of him
for a hearing, you know. He came to me; I said—I came to him and I said, “I want to be a
�27
hospital corpsman.” I said, “If I can’t be a hospital corpsman, then give me a BCD, whatever.” I
said, “Send me back home.” (00:46:33)
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Okay, so you say this and what kind of response did you get?
Veteran: He said, “Okay.” He said, “I will give you 6 months. If I don’t see you in front of me
for the next 6 months,” he said, “I will write to the bureau.” Six months? Boy, that’s a long time,
you know. I said, “Okay. You’ve got a deal.” So, we went to the Med that August, you know.
Interviewer: To the Mediterranean?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: We went on a Med cruise. And wow, I was really…Even then, you know, almost had
that—seen him, you know. But we went to the Med and I was clean all that time I was in the
Med.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I…comes—it was a—I don’t remember. It was 6 months later. It was October. The 6
months was October. So, I went to him. I said, “You know, the 6 months is up.” I said, “I have
been good to you.” I said, “You promised to write the bureau.” He said, “Oh yeah, I did.” And
so, he called the yeoman and the yeoman sent a letter. And the approval came in December.
Came and said that I was going to corps school in February or March of ’63.
Interviewer: Okay. And so, where was corps school? (00:48:09)
Veteran: At Great Lakes.
�28
Interviewer: Okay. So, now you go to Great Lakes, Illinois. Alright. And what was corps
school like? What did you learn there?
Veteran: A lot. A lot. Things that I, you know, that I never…See, when I was going to school, I
was a goofball. I was already skipping classes and all that thing. So, I did really—I hate reading,
for one thing. I hate to read. And I read more books than I had ever seen. I read in school in the
Philippines and I went to—when I changed rate. And I learned first aid, anatomy and physiology.
I had a good review of nephrology. And the math, you know. Things like that. And I did learn a
lot in the school.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you were able to get through that training course?
Veteran: I…Yeah, I finished 3rd in the class of 39 or something.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I was promoted right from school to 3rd class.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: So, I…I got stationed at Great Lakes for the hospital.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It was my best duty station in all my time in the service.
Interviewer: Alright. So, what were you doing at that assignment?
Veteran: Initially, I was like an LPN only better than an LPN. We have more training. The only
thing I can’t do—I was doing all the job of the RN—and the only thing I can’t do is to pass
�29
narcotics. And as far as knowledge, I think our knowledge—the RN’s knowledge and a hospital
corpsman’s knowledge almost on par.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:50:11)
Veteran: Depending on the person, though, okay. If a person is really dedicated to what he is
doing and decides to pursue really more…he can be farther than an RN. You know? And as a
matter of fact, some of the RNs—corpsmen became an RN, you know. And some of the
corpsman—the first PA that…You know about PA, right?
Interviewer: Are we talking about—
Veteran: Physician assistant?
Interviewer: Yes.
Veteran: The first 6 were the corpsmen. That started at Duke.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So, you are getting a pretty good medical training there at this
point.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, how long did you stay at Great Lakes?
Veteran: Well, I was at Great Lakes from ’63…I graduated in July of ’63. That’s schooling.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I graduated July of ’63 and got stationed at the hospital. Then I went to lab assistant
school and they transferred me to building 109. This is still at Great Lakes. I don’t remember the
month now.
�30
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But then in June of ’63…Oh, not ’63. June of ‘’65.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I was out in ’65.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: In June of ’65…Maybe I bet you…They send me to—I was…Yeah, that’s right. June
of ‘65 I went to lab assistant school. And then right after that—this is about 8 weeks course—I
went to the building 109 as a lab assistant, doing regular laboratory work, you know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, and from there I ran into another SOB, an officer, but I didn’t rebel against
this guy. Eventually, I would have—I rebelled against this guy because, at the time, when he
decided…Oh no, the Navy had me to stay ashore until ’66. You know? But this guy decided
well, you’re not a Marine force corpsman, so you’re going to go to school in the Marine force.
So, they send me to Camp Lejeune to train as an emergency medical technician. Like I knew
better than an emergency medical technician—
Interviewer: Okay. (00:52:52)
Veteran: You know.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, they send me there out on temporary provisional duty. Then I came back to
work in the lab again.
�31
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But I know it was a matter of time before they were sending me to Vietnam.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: At the time, she was expecting our oldest son.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I asked him if I could go on leave if she delivers. And he said I had to take this guy
to request a Captain’s Mast—to take this guy to see the captain. And they again, you know, they
allowed me to go see—the chief called me, and he said, “If your wife delivers, give me a call, let
me know.”
Interviewer: Alright. So, when you went to Camp Lejeune, were you doing what was
basically combat training? Or combat medic training?
Veteran: They have a 50-caliber set on the ground and you are crawling underneath electric live
round. That’s how you train.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did they also give you a lot of physical training there? Did you
have to be basically—you have to be like a Marine?
Veteran: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I got to—I have a Marine uniform. See, a back up Marine
uniform. I have a Navy uniform too. I have 2 or 3.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, how—now you were getting close to 30 years old at this point.
Veteran: I was 30 years old.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�32
Veteran: When I went to Vietnam, I was 30 years old. I made—no, I was 29. I swear I turned 30
right at Hill 400, starving to death.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: If we were not resupplied.
Interviewer: So, at this point, were you older than most of the corpsmen getting sent to
Vietnam? (00:54:27)
Veteran: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, along the way, I mean at least among your…I guess, among
your corpsmen, once you are at Great Lakes and you are working there and training there,
now you are out at Camp Lejeune. Did people give you trouble because you were Filipino?
Or did they accept you?
Veteran: No. No, because I—you know, like I say, I was a rebel and all that. And I—if you fight
them back, they leave you alone.
Interviewer: Okay, so they respect you.
Veteran: Yeah. You know, they leave you alone most of what—yeah, I probably am one of the
few Filipinos that you’ll hear that never gave any discrimination. Because I don’t—I never felt
that I was discriminated by anyone. Aboard the ship, maybe. During the time that I was trying to
become a corpsman.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I asked a chaplain to help me. Okay…He talked to the executive officer. The executive
officer I think was from Tennessee or somewhere in the south. Georgia? And the response he got
�33
from that— “Oh no, I can’t let him go. Nobody is going to cook for us. Nobody is going to serve
us.”
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know? But I didn’t even think that as discrimination at this point, because he’s got
a point. That was, I—that was what I was sent there for.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. Alright. But in the meantime, now you have trained. Now, were
there—was the training that you got at Camp Lejeune, did that turn out to be useful for
you?
Veteran: In medicine, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. But at Camp Lejeune, you were—
Veteran: In the—in Vietnam, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. So, you do the training, you go back to Great Lakes again, and then
you get orders for Vietnam after that? (00:56:13)
Veteran: Yeah. I went to Vietnam in October 6th. I got there…
Interviewer: Okay. Now how did they get you to Vietnam?
Veteran: By plane. They took us with a plane—on a plane.
Interviewer: Okay.
�34
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Now, was it a military plane or a chartered civilian plane? Were there regular
seats and stuff in it?
Veteran: From Travis Air Force Base, we were on a civilian plane.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: And then from Okinawa to Vietnam, we were on a C-130? I think a C-130.
Interviewer: Okay. And where did you land in Vietnam?
Veteran: In Da Nang.
Interviewer: Okay, you landed in Da Nang. And what’s your first impression of Vietnam
when you get there?
Veteran: I was afraid. I was in—I was in—that’s one of my conclusions too: people—the
corpsmen that got killed there most of the time just got there. And that…When you are afraid,
you are not able to think right. Okay, or if you are excited, you are not able to think right either.
You know? And when I—the first time I was on a battle sweep on the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
Interviewer: Okay. But let’s—before we get into that story…Okay, you arrive at Da Nang
and then what did they do with you once you get there?
Veteran: They assign me to the battalion.
Interviewer: Okay, and what battalion do they assign you to?
Veteran: 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines.
Interviewer: Okay. 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines. Now that—the 3rd Marine Division?
�35
Veteran: The 3rd Marine Division.
Interviewer: Alright. And where was that battalion operating from?
Veteran: In I Corps.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: That’s up north.
Interviewer: Yeah, the northern part of South Vietnam. Were you near any particular
towns or bases that were—
Veteran: Yeah, we were at…We were at Dong Ha.
Interviewer: Dong Ha. Okay.
Veteran: Dong Ha. We were at Dong Ha. And that’s where the—no, wait a minute…It was—we
went to Dong Ha. No, maybe we were in—I don’t know? Maybe we were in Phu Bai because
when—as soon as I get assigned with 2-9, they went on a sweep right away.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so they are going on a sweep and you are going along with
them. Now, what was your job with that battalion? Were you in the battalion aid station?
(00:58:27)
Veteran: I was at the battalion aid station. I was a general corpsman.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know…
Interviewer: Alright. And you say the battalion goes on a sweep. What was a sweep?
�36
Veteran: Hmm?
Interviewer: Explain what a sweep was.
Veteran: A sweep is—you go out on patrol where you expected the enemies to be. And you
counted them. That’s how all those—have you ever heard of Operation Prairie?
Interviewer: Mhmm.
Veteran: I was out—we caught the tail end of Operation Prairie. But they were starting there
already at the time. Well, that’s how they find that: on a sweep. The recon company—the recon
squad—found that on a reconnaissance. And then they send somebody to sweep that area to look
around and found that unit, that…
Interviewer: Right. I guess usually they try to have the companies work together to push
the enemy together and capture them.
Veteran: Yeah. The whole company is spread out. You know, if you—I don’t know if you are
familiar, you know, the instructions to us is you are supposed to spread out 15 meters apart on a
sweep.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: Okay, and so you figure—picture it in your mind: a whole hun—let’s see…We have 1
company. We have over 1000 people in the battalion.
Interviewer: Battalion, yep.
Veteran: Picture that in your mind: 1000 people at 15 meters apart. That’s a long…Probably all
the way to Chicago.
�37
Interviewer: Well, they are not all in one line. Some of them are in the back. There’s some
people in reserve or support, but yeah. But it’s still a long—a long line of men.
Veteran: Right. By the 4th platoon in that, you know…
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So, you have got a hundred and some men maybe in the company
and there are only— (01:00:12)
Veteran: 200 maybe?
Interviewer: Yep. Sometimes. A lot of times companies were smaller. But anyway, you are
out there, you are in the field. So, did anything happen during that sweep? Did...
Veteran: We got ambushed the first time.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You know, at the Ho Chi Minh Trail. And I didn’t see the fighting. I was initially—we
don’t really go into any until somebody call for corpsman.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know. And we took—6 of the Marines were killed right way. And I was sitting
down at the bottom of this hill with—next to the chaplain. And I woke up in the morning to this
Marine cutting the head of this Vietnamese that they killed. They are cutting the head, you know.
And that—after they cut the head, they took the head out and put it in the bamboo stake on the
bridge.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know, and it’s gross.
�38
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: It’s gross. So, yeah…
Interviewer: How quickly did you start treating casualties?
Veteran: Hmm?
Interviewer: Were you treating casualties right away?
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: As soon as they called in, you know, we would take them out. If they were dead, you
know, we helped bag them. You know? But if they are still alive, then we—whatever injury they
have, we have to take care. The first thing, the important thing, is stop the bleeding is the main
thing.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. But you are at this point, you are working at the aid station, so
the casualties are coming to you?
Veteran: Well, no, we—the company is a battalion, so on a sweep all the battalion, all of the
men, are out there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, we are out along with them.
Interviewer: You are out there with them? Okay. And were you divided up among the
companies to support all of them? (01:02:06)
�39
Veteran: Well, the companies are assigned 2 per platoon, so you got, you know, 6 different
corpsmen, 2 per platoon. They were—those are the ones that are actually right at the fight, you
know. Now, the battalion aid travels with the colonel.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I traveled with the colonel.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, whatever it—that could be the same—the admin group get hit, we are the one that’s
going to be taking care of it.
Interviewer: Right. That’s kind of what I was asking. So, you are sort of staying with—you
are at the battalion aid station to begin with, so you kind of follow the colonel when they
move the headquarters, so you are not up at the very front.
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: At that point.
Veteran: No, we are not at the front. We are not in the front.
Interviewer: Alright. Now how long did you stay with the battalion aid station?
Veteran: I was to go—supposed to go—to relieve some corpsman. I was second class at the time.
And as a second class, your assignments are senior corpsman, in charge of the other 6.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And I was supposed to relieve a second class…either middle of January or February.
But I ended up taking the company ahead, you know. Before that—okay, on that sweep that
�40
we…I was so scared. At the time, I will tell you, I was really scared. And I was seeing ghosts. I
was seeing monster coming out of the mountain, you know. This really scared me. Well, after we
got back to the rear—this was in October, okay. I wrote a letter to the Bureau of Naval
Personnel. I wanted out of there because you have no business sending me here. I am the sole
surviving son of my father, I said. They already have that law.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yep. (01:04:22)
Veteran: I said, “I want to get out of here. I want to come back.” Okay, in the meantime, life
goes on. I have to do whatever I was assigned to do, okay, as I am doing that. And I kind of got
adjusted to it.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: You know, I got used to the idea of being there. The response from the Bureau came in
December. By that time, I said, “I don’t want to go back anymore.” You know? Because at that
point, the chief called me. He said, “You want to go back? Think it over,” he said, “because if
you want to stay in the service, they may not let you stay here anymore.” You know. But then I
started thinking. I said, “You know, if I go out, I am chicken. You know, I don’t know if I can
live with myself doing that.” You know? It’s not a matter of staying in this military, you know,
it’s just myself, my personal…I said, “A coward, you know? If I left.” I said, “No, I don’t think I
want to have that on my mind.”
Interviewer: Alright. Okay.
Veteran: So, I turned it down. I turned it down. I said, “No, I am not going back.” And instead,
one of the guys that came to me was offering me $150 to take the company because he was
getting scared too. He was getting scared. And at the time there, he’s got a family problem in the
�41
states. His house burned down in Norfolk. And so, he got to see the spine. And those are the
guys that get killed. And I feel sorry for the guy. He was giving me $150 to take his company
area.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so now—
Veteran: So, I said, “I don’t need your money.” I said, “I will take your company.” This
happened in January already. “I’ll take your company.” No, the 1st of January…
Interviewer: Okay. (01:06:12)
Veteran: I do. I did, I took the company at the 1st of January.
Interviewer: Alright. And so, you are there with that company then.
Veteran: That whole company too.
Interviewer: Until October of ’67, when you go—
Veteran: Until…Not October. Until 6 month, July? July maybe. Late July.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But now you are—you have got to this time. There are 6
months sort of in the field with a line company. And what was that job like? What were
you doing during those 6 months?
Veteran: That’s where I patched a whole bunch of guys that they were—wherever they got. I had
to make—I had to—it was up to me to make the decision to medevac. I have to make that
decision. Like, we got ambushed. Two of the guys got hit. We have to be at a certain point at
noon. And on top of that, what time it was…and we were really pushed for time. The captain
asked me—he said, “Doc,” he said, “take a look at this guy to know if we need to medevac
them.” But we have to be at this point. We don’t—I don’t know where they are going to assign
�42
us. This time, this one we know got to be there as a perimeter guard. You know, and so, I went in
there, look at the guys. The guy’s got a leg wound, and the other was an arm wound. But it’s not
critical. And I didn’t want them to carry any—I didn’t want them to carry any backpack or
anything. I want them a walking stick. Based on what I know at the time, a walking stick would
help them ambulate back.
Interviewer: Right. (01:08:04)
Veteran: So, I told the captain, I said, “Give me a fire team. Go ahead and go. I will stay with the
guys, just the two guys, and we will be behind. So, that’s 4 of us going into this…” You know,
and the captain said, “Okay. You have got the Marines that can carry their backpack.” And I got
the 4 guys and the 2 wounded and myself. So, it’s a long walk; really long. But I didn’t know
how far we were at the time. And they got to that point. They made their appointment there.
Their…Oh, whatever I was looking for. They got their appointment there that…
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, by the time I got…We were so far away. We were so far away that they had to send
a Jeep. They had to send a Jeep to pick us up. So, I got ready. I got a ride on the Jeep to go back.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, at least there was enough of a road or a trail that you could take
a Jeep down it.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright.
�43
Veteran: And we got…As it turned out, it was a good decision that I made because had we
missed that appointment, we would have been sent to Hill 881 and 882. That’s one of the big
fights.
Interviewer: Okay. And those are the ones—
Veteran: That we—2 corpsmen got killed in there.
Interviewer: Was that near Khe Sanh? Was that the…
Veteran: Which one?
Interviewer: Was that near Khe Sanh? Those hills.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You said Khe Sanh. We were at Khe Sanh at the time.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: We were at Khe Sanh; 881 and 882. And because of the decision that I made, we were
able to be—the captain would have sent us there. And we would have missed it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Because at that day, I am the only one that’s available. They sent out Echo Company to
that place.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, your battalion was the one—was at Khe Sanh in late 19—
(01:10:15)
�44
Veteran: They were in—I think—
Interviewer: In the middle of ’67?
Veteran: That was in ’67.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: I think…I think the battalion was…maybe we were in Phu Bai already. We were in Phu
Bai already. The battalion was in Phu Bai and we were spread out with the going around.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we were going—that was where the sweep come in. We were going on a sweep
every day. We were going on a sweep.
Interviewer: Alright. And what kinds of casualties were you taking in this period? Were
you losing a lot of men?
Veteran: No. No, we were just sporadic fire. You know, an ambush here and there. And there are
times that I was at the ambush. That’s why I couldn’t rest because I was so tired at the, you
know… And I—there was a—one area where we were ambushed. And the call got up all the
way to me. Normally, that doesn’t—that’s not supposed to happen. The corpsmen in the front are
the ones. But the corpsmen in the front got scared. They didn’t run to the casualty. So, I ended up
doing the—it was an arm wound and a neck wound. But I stopped the bleeding and, you know,
had…When I came back, I talked to the 2 guys. They were scared. They were young kids, 18year-old kids. And the captain was really mad. You know, the captain was really mad. I said,
“No,” I said, “don’t.” He wanted me to punish these guys. “No,” I said. “Don’t. It’s—no big deal
happened so,” I said, “we are lucky that nothing happened.”
�45
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Nothing happened. I said, “Let go.” I said, “I’ll talk to them and make sure this doesn’t
happen again.” And let me tell you, they turned out to be two of the best corpsmen that I had in
that company later on as they learned. But one of the ambush that we had, that we got—one of
the corpsman was so scared, he and another guy—when I called for a medevac—they jump on
the chopper with the casualties.
Interviewer: Yeah. (01:12:25)
Veteran: And you know what I did to those two guys?
Interviewer: What?
Veteran: When they came back, I sent them all out on all the patrols that this platoon was—I sent
them all out. You should—I told them, I said, “You exposed those people to additional danger
that they should not have. You go in there and take your chances.”
Interviewer: Alright. And now, over the course of the time that you spent with that
company, did you have any close calls yourself? I mean, did you get hit or nearly so?
Veteran: Well, we were at Gio Linh, right at the Freedom Bridge. This is sort of North Vietnam.
A rocket was—I don’t know, maybe it was just a mortar. It landed right around our bunker. And
when we jumped into the bunker, I got hit on the knee with the shrapnel. I got hit on the knee.
The other two corpsmen got there ahead of me. They were faster than I am. I got hit on the knee.
And…You know, they stitch—I went to the BAS, at the battalion aid station and the corpsmen
over there stitched me up. Eight stitches on my knee. It was sent in report to Washington. That’s
how I got the Purple Heart. I didn’t even want that Purple Heart at the time because I don’t
�46
need—I didn’t get hurt bad, you know. That’s just nothing—that’s nothing, you know? But
because I did—because of their reporting, Washington was obligated to...
Interviewer: Yep. (01:14:01)
Veteran: You know? This captain that I was with—okay, I will get to that. Along this—while I
was in this company, we hit a battalion base camp of the North Vietnamese. Is that where it was?
I don’t remember where it was. It was pretty close to where the [untelligible] where our—right
around that area. Because we went over there too to that area. And there were North Vietnamese
in there, but we didn’t see any of them. But they were laying mines all over the place. We took—
I took maybe 21, 22, casualties and maybe ours were 22. Maybe I patch about 8 of them, you
know. The leg wound, you know.
Interviewer: Is that all from mines?
Veteran: All the mines. You know, some—not really that bad. But I was running all over that
field, not knowing—I wasn’t even thinking about the mine. I wasn’t even thinking about the
mine, I was just thinking of the patient, you know. I was just thinking of the patient that was
laying in there. And when we get back to our base camp, you know, where we were staying,
after—by the time, that time, we called in the tanks to, you know, they—we got there in the
morning and we left around at night. You know, we left right—and when we got back to the base
the following day, the captain wanted to put me up for Bronze Star. And I said, “No. I don’t
know, I don’t want the Bronze Star.” I said, “I didn’t get hurt. I did my job; that’s my job that I
was trained to do.”
Interviewer: Alright. Now, I need to take a break for just a moment. I will be right back.
(01:15:55)
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e696c7bbedbf0e099a8d064c93c7b27.mp3
27d9df77e24d246a5d95ad0b802abaa2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_NazarioM2333V
Creator
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Nazario, Moises G
Date
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2019-08
Title
A name given to the resource
Nazario, Moises (Interview transcript and audio, part 1), 2019
Description
An account of the resource
Moises Nazario was born in Manila, Philippines, on October 25th, 1936. He recalls his uncle fighting in World War II when he was as young as five years old, and he remembers when Manila was occupied by Japan. Once the Philippines gained independence, Nazario attended college and medical school before enlisting in the Navy in early 1958. He got his physical at an American base in the Philippines, Sangley Point, and was accepted a few months later after which he was shipped from Sandy Point to Fort Mason, San Francisco. In August 1958, he flew out of San Francisco to San Diego for basic training. He was assigned to a company in September. After basic training, he attended steward school where he was trained to cook and serve before being transferred to Naval Academy as a steward. He served as a steward from 1959 to 1961. After that, Nazario was transferred to the USS Sampson and attended commissioning school in Rhode Island. After five months on the USS Sampson, he went back to the Philippines on leave before going to Boston where he assigned to the USS Johnston. While on the USS Sampson, he traveled to Charleston and then Cuba for the Cuban Missile Crisis blockade in December 1962. After a Mediterranean cruise, he was sent to Great Lakes, Illinois for corps school. In July 1963, he graduated corps school and was stationed at the hospital in Great Lakes. In June 1965, Nazario was sent to lab assistant school, and he worked as a lab assistant in Great Lakes after finishing the 8-week course. After that, he was sent to Camp Lejeune to train as an emergency medical technician. After a brief return to the lab in Great Lakes, Nazario was flown to Vietnam in October 1966, landing in Da Nang. There, he was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines, 3rd Marine Division and served as a general corpsman at the battalion aid station. His battalion went on a “sweep,” or patrol to look for enemies, and it was his job to take care of casualties in the field. Nazario himself was injured when he got hit on the knee with shrapnel and got eight stitches on his knee at the battalion aid station.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American
Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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Sound
Text
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In Copyright
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e7f44ec977048fb668b2003ec615e376.mp4
6acb643cc6ada924a414eddadf96f089
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e972b3adb1cd5be457d83c410d38c494.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Christl, Roland
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee’s Name: Roland Christl
Length of Interview: (52:07)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Roland Christl of Richmond, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay now start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where
and when were you born?”
October 29th, 1924 Berrien Springs in the farm house that I stayed in till I retired.
Interviewer: “Alright and– Now born in the 1920s and of course the depression starts not
too long afterwards, did your family own that farm?” (00:39)
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay and you’re able to keep it through the depression?”
Oh yes, well that’s your livelihood you can raise about anything you need besides salt and
pepper.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t have– Some people got foreclosed on and that kind of
thing but you kind of made it through. How many children were in your family?”
There was four of us.
Interviewer: “And where were you in line?”
�Christl, Roland
I was the last born.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how long did you go to school?”
I went through high school and graduated.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you graduate from high school?”
1943.
Interviewer: “Okay, now do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?”
I didn’t know anything about Pearl Harbor, you know as a kid “What’s Pearl Harbor?” You
know, is it a harbor of the United States? You know I had no idea where Pearl Harbor was.
Interviewer: “Okay, but do you remember how you first heard the news? Okay, at what
point did you understand what it meant, a couple days later?” (1:50)
Sure, after you find out where Pearl Harbor was and what really actually happened.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when the war started did things change at all in your community
or with the people you knew?”
Well nothing that I know of because I’m like 15 years old, you know and you’re more interested
in what you’re doing than what the country’s doing really I think.
Interviewer: “Okay, now I mean did you have a radio, could you listen to news and
things?”
Oh sure we had a radio.
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Now did you consider– Did you know a lot of people who started to enlist in
the military or get drafted?”
Well sure, most of the people that went to school see we had 35 in our class so you know
everybody pretty well, even in the other classes. Our neighbors, you know they had, oh I don’t
know, four or five boys I think, four of them went into the Air Force and learned how to fly. So
we knew all that.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have rationing?”
Sure we had rationing and things on the farm, you know you have your own butter, my mother
used to make butter and take it down to Herman’s grocery store and sell it to him, then he would
put it in saleable sizes and sell it to the people, and so farm is– When you live on a farm we had
meat stamps that would expire, people were upset when they saw those expired meat stamps
“What, you let those expire?” And they’re short on meat, they get a little bit every day.
Interviewer: “So what kind of stock did you have on your farm?” (3:57)
Well everything that we needed to support a family really, had chicken, we had cows, we had
horses and no tractors at that time. We did get a tractor in ‘39 it seemed like, or was it ‘41? I
think it was ‘39.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you had some animals and then what were you growing on
your farm?”
Well we grew mostly things for the livestock and then fruit, it was a big fruit area here and
mostly fruit. Anything from strawberry to– You know and you’re 15 you’re out there picking
every time something out there starts to develop, you’re out there working with it.
Interviewer: “Did you get an extra gas ration because you were running a farm?”
�Christl, Roland
My brother went into the service, he was drafted in ‘41– Or before ‘41, for a year, In a year– “In
a Year I’ll be Back, Darling” The song but soon as Pearl Harbor happened well then you’re in
there for the duration, but he had a model A Ford car and he left it to me. So we both– My dad
had a sticker– I think he had an A sticker but my tire size was sort of over sized, I could buy a
new tire, my dad could only buy a used tire.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you did reasonably well there, now did you only have one
brother?”
Two brothers.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then what– Was the other brother younger than you or older–
Older he was older than you.”
Both older, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did he go in the service?” (5:43)
Well my eldest brother– I was four of, he got several– Two bad operations that disqualified him
and he became a dentist. My second brother was the one that was drafted for a year and he
became an officer and he was working in California install– Overseeing the installations of the
anti aircraft in California, making sure if the Japanese try to land they have to have something
over there to shoot with, and so after that expired– You know that threat expired, then he went to
France and became a major, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now as for you, did you have a deferment because you were working
on the farm?”
Oh absolutely, there were several boys that farmed and had deferments so I could’ve stayed out
but I decided well I’m gonna go in, see what happens, see what’s going on.
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Okay, so was it you were just kind of curious at that point or?”
Well of course I knew what’s going on, we had friends and I was in the service and I said “Well
other than just loafing around, you know and–” I said, told the draftsperson, I said “I think I
wanna go in and see if I can be of any use in there– Out there.”
Interviewer: “Alright, so I’m sure they’re happy to take you at that point.”
Oh absolutely.
Interviewer: “Alright, so when did you enter the service then?”
Well– It’s right there, that was April 11th, 1945.
Interviewer: “Alright, and where did they send you for basic training?” (7:47)
Camp Robinson, Arkansas.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how did they get you down there?”
More than likely by train I think.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you don’t remember much about the train ride?”
No, not the train ride.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what was Camp Robinson like?”
�Christl, Roland
Well it was the middle of summer and it was really hot and I was pretty fit, I played basketball in
school and I was pretty fit and working on the farm I was pretty able to do about anything and so
other than being hot and tiring it was endurable.
Interviewer: “Okay, now what about the discipline part, what was that like?”
Well nothing like you see in the movies or on the T.V that’s for sure, had no problem with that.
Interviewer: “Okay, so the drill sergeants were okay?”
Reasonable guys, yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright now were you used to taking orders, I mean was that easy or hard to
do?”
Well it was pretty much a unit order, it wasn’t an individual order and I was squad leader so I
had a few benefits and– Like no KP.
Interviewer: “So how did you wind up a squad leader?” (9:20)
I guess I was tall, they put all the tall men in the front and the small guys in the back and we go
out to the rifle range, we’ll do six miles and the little guys had to run sometimes to keep up.
“Slow down, slow down!” Well we’re 2nd platoon, 1st platoon is already getting ahead of us,
we’re trying to keep up with them and the little guys in the back are hollering “Slow down!”
Interviewer: “Alright, how long did you spend at Camp Robinson?”
I think it was 11 week basic, a long basic, a long basic because I was training for a replacement
now. So I was trained in mostly all the hand weapons.
Interviewer: “So you’re expecting to be just a replacement infantryman at that point?”
�Christl, Roland
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and did you figure you were going to go to Japan?”
No, no I had no idea until I got to Fort Ord and I said “Well, must be going across the Pacific.”
Interviewer: “Okay, of course the war in Europe ended while you were in training.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Cause that’s in early May so Japan is about the only place left to keep
fighting. Okay, so you finish your 11 weeks, now by the time you finish that, let’s see had
Japan surrendered yet or were they just about to?”
Well they surrendered in–
Interviewer: “They surrendered in August.” (10:53)
August 15th.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so do you remember where you were then?”
I was still in the states I hope, they– We stayed there, I don’t know when we left Camp Robinson
but then we went down to Hampton, Alabama– I can’t remember the name there, then from there
we went to Fort Ord, California, we didn’t ship out there either cause now the war’s over and
they needed to figure out where to put these guys so they sent us up to– I think, Lewis–
Interviewer: “There’s Fort Lewis in Washington.”
�Christl, Roland
It was in Washington, and then we shipped out from there. One day while we were there they
had us file out and the officer came out and said “We need 1,000 volunteers.” Now what? What
do you think goes on in your mind “Are they gonna send 1,000 back home? Are they gonna keep
1,000 here?” And so we didn’t know until one of the fellows that lived in Eau Claire, which is
about five miles from Berrien Springs, but I knew he volunteered, so I didn’t know until I came
back and talked to him, they all went to Germany, took them all the way across the country, sent
him to Germany. Yeah, so we went and ended up in Japan.
Interviewer: “Okay, now how did they get you to Japan?”
On a troopship the–[unintelligible]? A troopship, forget the name of it though.
Interviewer: “Okay, now do you have a sense of how many men were on this ship?”
I think it was the General [unintelligible], I have no idea.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the ocean voyage like?” (13:03)
Well it was not too bad until we got out of Puget Sound then all– We said “Well this isn’t bad at
all.” You know, but we were still in Puget Sound, when we got out in the ocean then it started
rolling and then we got, I don’t know, maybe half way across and run into a storm. We were–
You look over the rail and the boat wasn’t going through the water, it was just practically
standstill because of the head winds I guess. So they called for a change of course and they went
south and you could see the boat going through the water. We got close to Japan, they spotted a
mine so everybody battle stations and they shot until they said “Stop shooting.” Yeah and a fella
who worked in the mess hall, a Navy personnel, and I got acquainted he was– And then there
was another friend who ran a 20 millimeter gun and then just kept shooting. We couldn’t see the
mine, they couldn’t either but they’re all shooting in that one direction and so it was kind of
interesting to see how they operate that. They got a barrel 20 millimeter and that’s a pretty good
size and they had an extra barrel and a container and I don’t know if this was water or what it is,
probably water, they shoot the canister, empty, they take the [unintelligible] that barrel hole, drop
�Christl, Roland
it in this container and it starts boiling. Then you get the other barrel, snap it in, put another
container on there, start shooting again, keep doing that until they make the order to stop but it
was very interesting to see how that was operated, you know and then not long before that we
stopped another mine, it wasn’t all the far away from the one. On the way over during the storm
in the third hole we were getting leaks through the seams they said– The G.Is “Just stay down
there, just stay down there.” Well they didn’t stay down there, wasn’t my hole but I’d say they
come up and they couldn’t stay down there, water seeping in, if that broke open any larger than
that you know it’d be a lot of water gushing in.
Interviewer: “Alright, so where did you land, in Japan where did you go?”
We went to Osaka and couldn’t get off because there was a bunch of Marines out there on that
area, there was no place for the soldiers, the Army and so we stayed on the boat. Well that was
28 days before we ever got off that thing, a very long time.
Interviewer: “So how did you spend your time?” (16:15)
Well everybody has a job doing something or other, we were to clean up down in the mess hall
and they had cafeteria style of course but when you have– When you have mess you have a line
of people going in the mess hall and it goes up this ladder and up that ladder and down this way
and that way, very very long line and so we’d get down there early and eat and then because
we’re in clean up we’d get in the line again that’s like two and half hours later, you know we’re
hungry again, go through the line a second time. First time you gotta get your card punched,
second time we’re in clean up so they let us through, we ate standing up.
Interviewer: “Okay, so did they let you go ashore at all or were you just–”
No, we didn't go ashore at all.
Interviewer: “Okay, so now did they finally let you go ashore in Osaka or did you go
somewhere else?”
�Christl, Roland
Got to go to Osaka, from there it must have been Yokohama, got to a big port there and we got
off and we were in the Tokyo area now.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have a unit assignment yet or were you just still a
replacement?”
Trying to think, I got into the 98th Division, I was 8th Army. Somewhere I got mixed up but
anyway I got into the infantry there for a while and they needed a truck driver, well I drove truck
on the farm and so I got a truck driver’s license and drove. Well the 98th Division was made up
of people from the New York area, never saw a day of combat, floating reserve through the
whole war. The fella that was driving the truck going back home I took his place, he was a bus
driver from New York.
Interviewer: “Now what was it like to drive a truck around Tokyo?” (19:00)
Well, as long as you’re following someone not too bad, sometimes these roads were only about
as wide as this room, the truck has got this much space on either side and the people are riding
bicycles on both sides. So you know you drive it the best you can, I guess if something happens
it happens you keep going, it was some– And then we went to the Yokohama– Forget what they
call it where they had most of the supplies came in and they’d have supplies backed up, you
wouldn’t believe. Barrels, 55 gallon barrels like from here to that other building, about 10 feet
high and about that wide, two of you, you know and they had motor ships I mean a lot of stuff
comes off and we’d go in there for supplies and they’d load our trucks and take it back to camp.
Well after that–
Interviewer: “Well, now just a little more here, what did Tokyo itself look like at that
point?”
Tokyo downtown wasn’t too bad, they didn’t really destroy it because of imperial palaces,
they’re located really right there. They didn’t drop any bombs on that but later on when I got
�Christl, Roland
transfered over to Sugamo prison, all you had was cement slabs here and cement slabs there and
I got a picture of desolations. Unbelievable, just you know they have these houses, smaller
houses, even probably the bigger ones they’ve all got these sliding doors, you know with sort of
a paper windows in them and very very fragile buildings. So when the many pom-poms hits I
mean it goes, the fire extinguishing system they had, we had one there at 720th and we had a fire
there and so they called the Japanese fire department and we had a reservoir or a tank a little
bigger than a swimming pool probably about 10 feet deep, concrete, full of water, that was their
water for fighting fires. They drive their truck up there, throw a hose in, start the pumper up and
then that’s the way they fight the fires. Well when they got all the water pumped out, you look
down there in the bottom, there’s a napalm bomb there and it had busted open and the napalm
was kind of run out on the bottom, but if that thing were to hit ground and splattered that whole
camp would’ve– It was a Japanese military camp at one time, we took over– Took it over and
lived there and seeing that down there if it hit bare ground it would’ve splattered and that’s what
happens, you know they hit a residential area, nothing left, burned the whole thing down.
Interviewer: “Now how long did you spend as a truck driver?” (22:19)
Oh not too long because they needed someone in the telephone section so they transferred me to
the telephone section. Well when I got to the 720th MPs I worked in the telephone section, then
they transferred me to Sugamo prison. Well if you know wire, you know electrics wire so they
transferred me to the electrical department. Well then they needed some refrigeration work so
they sent me to a battalion of engineers to learn refrigeration. So I did learn refrigeration and
then I was discharged as a refrigeration service man.
Interviewer: “Okay, now let’s back up a little bit, let’s go back. You had your initial
assignment as a truck driver for the 98th Division and then you switch and your next unit
is–”
The telephone.
Interviewer: “Okay that’s– For which that was 720th?”
�Christl, Roland
No, that’s still the Army.
Interviewer: “But it’s still the 98th Division at that point?”
98th Division, yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how long did you work telephones?”
I don’t know, I got my T-5 there, they just jump from private to T-5, they were gonna jump me
to sergeant but, I don’t know they stopped it.
Interviewer: “They stopped promotions after a while?”
Well they stopped promotions for a while, I really don’t know how long I stayed there but–
Interviewer: “Were you just a telephone operator or did you lay wire?” (24:05)
No, no– Yeah, I even climbed poles, I was up on a pole we were supposed to tag all the wire that
came in there, before we got there the first bunch of G.Is got there they strung all these wires and
so we got all these wires up there, I went up the pole I’m gonna tag all these lines. Well so you
have a double E8 phone, you hook it in, crank the crank, and see who was there “Colonel Bork
here. Colonel Bork, who are you?” “Well I’m Corporal Christl, I’m up here on the pole checking
these lines.” “Tag that line, never get on it again.” He had a private line to–
Interviewer: “America’s headquarters?”
America’s headquarters. So one day they come in, called me into the day room, they said “Well
we’re looking for an honor guard for General MacArthur, and would you like to accept that?”
Well probably would’ve been interesting to accept that but I didn’t and– Too much spit and
polish man, you know you shine them every minute you were up there and it was kind of
�Christl, Roland
interesting and I always thought I probably would’ve done nice and seen him, maybe even
spoken with him, you know.
Interviewer: “Did you ever see MacArthur or see MacArthur’s car?”
No.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you’re stringing telephone wires and then how do you end
up changing jobs?”
From, well when I got out of the– When I got into the 720th I’m still in the telephone section,
you know it was just four of us and we didn’t have much to do because most of the other wire
stuff was all installed already. There was one line between us and some prison that they were
renovating and over out there stringing wires to get line from where we were to the prison and all
of a sudden here comes all these Army trucks full of prisoners, and we’re backed up against the
building and the road’s about like from here to your window and these guys are kind of swatting
see if they could hit us, you know all the prisoners. I won’t tell you what color most of them
were but–
Interviewer: “Okay, so these were American servicemen who were prisoners?” (27:05)
All American servicemen.
Interviewer: “Okay, so people who had been acting up in Japan and got themselves
arrested.”
That’s right, we had a few people come from Europe– European campaign that had bad time,
now if you have bad time in the military after you get you, you gotta make up that bad time. So
we had people over there and couldn’t get them to do anything, they did what they wanted
mostly. Sergeants in charge they give up and there wasn’t really that much for them to do and
most of what we did have to do they just didn’t do it. So now comes time to send stuff home and
�Christl, Roland
anything Japanese you could send home, the machine gun, anything. This fella that was in– I
think it was our group, saw him all the time, he was sending home boxes full of Japanese
military stuff, a flare gun, and at the warehouse you could get that stuff and no one said anything
about it.
Interviewer: “Alright, so well why did you change from the 98th Division over to the MP
unit?”
Well the 98th Division was coming back to the states and I hadn’t been there very long so I’m
not going back with them.
Interviewer: “Okay, those guys most of the rest of them had been in the division longer
during the war itself and so they rotate home but you’re still there. Okay and now they
gotta rotate you into a different unit and so you wind up with the MPs.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then how long did you stay with that MP company?” (29:02)
Well I really can’t say because we had that bad fire and the building was completely practically
destroyed and the colonel came out and– I think he’s a colonel, and– But he was intoxicated
“Someone get the hose on that fire!” “Well we’re waiting for the Japanese fire department to
come.” “I don’t care, call them again.” Well after him coming out like that he got transferred to
Sugamo prison. So then he had the MP battalion overstaffed, so they wanted to get us down to
what the staff should be. So some of us got transferred out and he had a way of getting some of
us over to Sugamo prison where he was at. So we’re in review at Sugamo prison some time, he
came by and he asked where we had been in service– Stationed before, and so I told him I, well
was at the MPs and he said “Well how do you like it here?” Was only about four– Three, four
miles difference between one and the other, so I said “Very good sir.” So that’s where he ended
up and where I ended up.
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Now what was your job at the prison, what was your job?”
Well then I would become an electrician because I knew wires, so wires are wires, telephone
wires, electrical wires, that’s the Army, and so I’m in the electrical. Well then the– We did all
these odd jobs and like Tokyo Rose’s switches and other things. We had a short one of those big
barracks now we’re in the Japanese campgrounds. They had these buildings, two story buildings,
long ones like from here way over to that other building there and so it short and blew the fuse.
Well you pull out the wooden box and there’s a terminal here and there with a lead wire in
between, so every time you flip the switch the lead wire would melt. So it was a short and it’s not
working in the middle of the day, ”How you gonna find a short in a big building?” I said “Well
one way we can find out– I’m an electrician, one way we can find out we’ll put a copper wire in
there.” And down at the other end of the building they have a small section sectioned off for a
guard house and they had a bulb hanging down on the wire and pull the chain, you know and
then you have electricity, have a light. So all of a sudden that thing was shorted out and started
smoking and they sent in the fire alarm. So we quickly, you know, knew where the short was, so
well then they had two elevators in the prison, one was working fine the other one was not
working. (32:40) So, work order comes in “See if you can get the other elevator in operation.”
So went up on the roof, opened the door, looked in there and I don’t think I’m going to try to do
a thing in there, close the door back up, you know all these copper, brass switches and poles and
what not. So that was one experience, now the officer’s latrine didn’t have hot water. “Fix it
and– Fix it and hurry up.” Well, so we took a look and the electrodes would come out like that,
spark and set off the oil. They were burned out, there’s no replacement “You ain’t gonna fix
something? Hurry up.” Well I says “You know we have these welding rods, they got a flux on
them and so let’s try one of those.” Well we put those in and sure enough it worked, for a week
and then burned out again. So now the officers are really hot, you know “You guys fix
something it don’t stay fixed what’s the matter with you!” You know, blah blah blah. So I forget
how we ever resolved that but I think they did finally find it. See I wasn’t in charge of the
electrical department, we had an old man who was in charge of that, he was regular Army come
to think about it, and so that was another– Then the– How I became a refrigeration repair man,
they brought in–
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Hang on before we get there, before we started the interview you told me a
story about Tokyo Rose and if I could record that on the cam here. First off, could you
explain who Tokyo Rose was?”
Well she was an American citizen and she went to Japan to visit her family and the war broke
out, she couldn’t come back. So she’s an American citizen just like we are, she speaks– Probably
spoke Japanese too, I have no idea but she visited her family so she probably does and so they
asked her, or told her one or the other, that they wanted her to broadcast on the radio to the G.Is
in the area and they would give her what she should say, and so she said “Well you know how it
goes.” You know, we know where you’re at, we know where you’re going, you’re not gonna
make it, you know and things like that.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so it’d been basically a propaganda broadcast during the war that
became very famous that way. Alright, so how was it that you met her?”
Well as an electrician the order came in, Tokyo Rose needs her electrical switch fixed. (36:00)
So we had a young Japanese electrician and an older one and so if we had anything that needed
fixing we could either try to do it ourselves or take the Japanese, I took the old Japanese man
with me and we went all the way to her prison cell, they had four or six cell blocks– The last four
or six cells was boarded off by the door. That was where the two women were in there, Tokyo
Rose is one and there was another younger one from Saipan they said, and so we got up there
and a guard let us in and I said– Told the Japanese fellow to fix the switch and I sat down at the
table like this and talked to Tokyo Rose and so I asked her if I could have her signature. She said
yes but I don’t have anything to write on, so I had a ten yen note in my pocket and this is the ten
yen note and on the backside there’s her signature Iva Jade Toguri which was her name then. She
got married I think in the states after that and Tokyo Rose in books.
Interviewer: “Alright and then you left the room.”
Definitely left, well I went through and told her that– The guard left and I’m sitting there with
her and she said to me “Are you gonna– Are they gonna leave you in here alone with me?” I said
�Christl, Roland
“I won’t bother you.” She said “That’s not the point.” She says “I haven’t been alone with a man
for a long time.” Well that kind of interested me and so then I got her signature and fellow fixed
the switch and we left. They had a guard right outside of her door all the time.
Interviewer: “Okay, now were there other Japanese prisoners being held there?”
Oh yeah, Tojo and all his bunch were– Bunch of them, there was a lot of them there and I had
this picture showing the bus that they took him on and down to Tokyo to the war crime trials just
like they did in Germany. They had several they took on the bus, they had escorts in the front
and the back and away they went and we couldn’t get into the prison until they were out. When
they were loading the bus I got someone sitting up there I said “Well one day I’m gonna take my
camera and take a picture.”
Interviewer: “What kind of impression did you have of the Japanese people generally?”
Oh they were wonderful, wonderful people, they were not a bit aggressive or unruly or anything
like that. If you went downtown Tokyo and walk down the street they would part, they would
part to let you walk through. They were instructed by their emperor what to do.
Interviewer: “Were you surprised that they were that well behaved?” (39:48)
Oh absolutely, I surely think the young men would heckle or say something, none of them ever
did because we were out there– Well at the prison you lived in a quonset hut, it was outside the
walls of the prison, the wall was like six feet from the quonset hut about 30 feet tall and our
quonset hut now is about this far from the sidewalk and the sidewalk is right next to the street
and the Japanese living on the other side they can’t walk– They’re not supposed to walk on our
side, they were walking back and forth across the street. So being in the Army most everyone
smoked after we ate, sit down along the wall of the quonset hut and smoke our cigarette and
when we’re done we’d flick the cigarette butt out in the middle of the road, about ten little kids
would jump on it, really. When we got done at the mess hall we dumped our trays, that was like
service, self service, and when we got done we had something left, went into the 55 barrel and
�Christl, Roland
we dumped our trays into two or three different barrels and left but when we were done eating
they took this 55 gallon barrel of leftovers, pulled it across the street and little kids are lined up
there with their little pails to get what they could out of there. It was two little girls, must’ve been
twins, and their folks live right down the street, I could see them down there looking out the door
waiting for them to come back. They lived in little shacks it’s all they had cause this is a couple
months after the end of the war, and one day the two little girls didn’t get anything were too late
and so crying boy oh both of them crying walking back with their empty pails, that was pretty
sad and a lot of people in the big parks they had– There was people always crawling under the
buses and dying, yeah.
Interviewer: “So there was starvation, there was a lot of other problems. Alright, now one
of the things that went on I mean there was also a lot of prostitution and things like that
going on, were you aware of that?”
Yeah, oh sure, I don’t think I’ll get into that.
Interviewer: “Yeah, wasn’t a personal question more just were you aware that was going
on kind of thing.” (42:45)
Well there at Sugamo prison we had a little walk, like from here to where I live, to get to the
train station to go any place, was mostly all cement slabs and every night there’d be a bunch of
girls out there waiting for anybody that came out. We were getting battle rations at that time so
we’re getting a lot of stuff for free and when we did buy cigarettes out of the PX I think they
were one carton a week because, you know cigarettes is real high, you know I think it was 60
cents per carton of cigarettes, ten packs. You could sell them to Japanese for $20 and so 60 cents
for a carton of cigarettes, you know how much is one pack worth, and I’m thinking it’s ten packs
so each pack is worth six cents and to the Japanese it’s worth 30 yen which is $2 and that’s all it
took, you could have one of the girls anytime you wanted one for one pack of cigarettes, for the
price of one pack of cigarettes.
Interviewer: “Did that create health problems in the unit?”
�Christl, Roland
Well sure, would any place it would be that way in the United States.
Interviewer: “Okay, now were there also, I mean were there– The downtown area, did they
have regular restaurants and things that were open that you could go to?”
Not too much, we weren’t allowed really to eat anything or not to drink anything either when I
was back in the 98ths a couple guy went to town to drink some– Something that the Japanese
gave them, which was wood alcohol, and almost died, yeah almost died.
Interviewer: “Alright, now you were going to talk about becoming a refrigeration
specialist, how does that happen?”
Well then we had a walk-in cooler that they used when they are out in the fields and it was
gasoline driven and now they wanted us to convert it to an electric motor. So how we gonna do
that? (45:27) Well nobody in the electrical department that I’m in there could figure that out so
they sent me to work at an engineering battalion to learn refrigeration. So I learned quite a bit
about refrigeration, how to test refrigerators that are not performing properly and how to convert
one to electric. So I got the old electrician, the old man, and tried to explain to him what we
wanted and he got most of everything and we got it going. Yeah, we did convert it.
Interviewer: “Alright, now when you were in Japan did you know how long you were going
to have to stay?”
I had no idea, no.
Interviewer: “Okay, now while you were there were a lot of the other men rotating home or
once you got to the prison did those people stay pretty much the same?”
Well everyone has points and you’re on a point system, when you get so many points then you
go home. Yeah so some people left, when I left I think two of the people that were in the MP
�Christl, Roland
battalion were– Still stayed. Then you get down to what they call the repple depple which is a
replacement depto where you go to get shipped out. We had chow lines, must have been almost
from here to Eric’s barn over there long, single file. “What are we eating?” “Well we’re having–
” This and this and you get about halfway there and guys they’re coming back already “What are
they eating?” They changed the menu already, that’s how long– How many people were there
and then of course when the boat comes in and we’re ready to load up then we go, going back
was easy yeah.
Interviewer: “And when did you come back to the states?”
Well we came back to Fort Lewis, Washington and didn’t stay there all that long they– Got
discharged there.
Interviewer: “Okay, I guess you’ve got a discharge date, January 4th, 1947. Now do you
remember where you were Christmas of ‘46?” (48:07)
I remember going down to Tokyo to the– What’d they call those clubs, G.I clubs and I think it
was run by the Red Cross, they had a big Christmas tree and I went down there.
Interviewer: “That must have been right before you left then, unless that was the year
before.”
I wasn’t paying much attention to dates.
Interviewer: “Alright, now once you do get back home, you’re out of the Army now 1947.
What do you do?”
Well before that I got to Chicago, wanted to catch the Twilight Limited to Niles, they said “No,
no G.Is” So my brother lived in the suburbs in Chicago and I called him and he said “Well come
over and stay overnight and I’ll take you back to Berrien Springs tomorrow.” I was surprised that
they wouldn’t– Twilight Limited is a faster train to Detroit, Chicago to Detroit stops at Niles but
�Christl, Roland
they wouldn’t let us on, wouldn't let us on. I thought that was a fine “How do you do?” You
know?
Interviewer: “Yeah thank you for your service, maybe some other G.Is got in trouble.”
Yeah, so after I got home well I just sat right back in, my bed’s still there.
Interviewer: “So you just went back to farming and then–”
Well I worked at Studebaker for about a year I think, I know I spent one summer there because
we didn’t have all that much crops because my dad cut back and so I spent about a year a
Studebaker’s making $3 and something an hour and that was a high paying place in this area at
that time.
Interviewer: “So why did you leave Studebaker?” (50:20)
Well, needed a little cash, I sent mine home from Japan, and I think I needed a little operating
money and there wasn’t much coming in at that time.
Interviewer: “But then after a year at Studebaker you left?”
Yeah, I left yeah and start farming with my dad.
Interviewer: “Okay and is that basically then what you did as your career, were you a
farmer?”
Absolutely, and then we started putting in orchards and you know only takes about three years,
especially peaches you start getting production and grapes and pears. Next family expanded on
those acreages, we raised a lot of fruit. We had a hundred ton of grapes, had to plant them all by
hand, picked them by hand, hold them in our– Mostly in the wineries at that time.
�Christl, Roland
Interviewer: “Alright, now to think back at the time you spent in the service how do you
think that affected you or what did you learn from it or were you just the same guy when
you got back?”
I figured I was.
Interviewer: “Alright, you certainly saw and did some interesting things so thank you very
much for taking the time to share the story today.”
Well you’re welcome
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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ChristlR2164V
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Christl, Roland
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10
Title
A name given to the resource
Christl, Roland (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Roland Christl was born on October 29, 1924 in Berrien Springs, Michigan, where he graduated high school in 1943. Since several of his friends and brothers were in the service, he decided to enlist into the Army to offer his contribution to the war effort. Enlisting in April of 1945, Christl was sent to Camp Robinson, Arkansas, for Basic Training. Both the war in Europe and the war in the Pacific ended while Christl was in training, and he bounced between camps in the United States awaiting postwar orders. From Fort Lewis, Washington, he was deployed to Japan on a troop ship, dodging several ship mines in the Pacific during the voyage. The ship landed in Osaka before transferring to Yokohama. In Yokohama, Christl was assigned to the 98th Infantry Division and volunteered to be a truck driver, operating supply lines between the port and Tokyo. Later, he volunteered and transferred into the telephone section of the 98th Division alongside the 720th Military Police Battalion. Eventually, Christl accepted a job renovating a prison that held American servicemen from both theaters who were being penalized for insubordination. Since most of his division rotated home shortly thereafter, he was transferred to the 720th Military Police Battalion, working in a detachment at the prison. He, again, became an electrician with the MPs and worked electrical maintenance duties around the prison. Christl also had the opportunity to meet the famed wartime broadcast host Tokyo Rose while fixing her cell’s electrical switches. While talking with her, he managed to get her autograph on a ten yen note. The prison also held several Japanese officials who were being put on trial for war crimes. Overall, Christl thought the Japanese people were wonderfully respectful toward American troops despite the heightened poverty and starvation rates they suffered after the war. He was also briefly transferred to an Engineer Battalion to be trained as a refrigeration technician. He worked as a refrigeration technician until he accrued enough service points to rotate back to the United States in January of 1947. After leaving the service, he moved back onto the family farm and briefly worked for Studebaker Automobile Company before returning to farming. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Christl believed he left the Army as the same man or character that entered it.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Lest We Forget
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng