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Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Miss Mildred Schulz
Interviewed in Fall 1974
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #53 (30:19)
Biographical Information
Mildred Schulz was born in Sturgis, St. Joseph County, Michigan on 15 November 1890. She
died in Grand Rapids on 6 January 1985 at the age of 94 and is buried in Greenwood Cemetery,
Grand Rapids, Michigan. Miss Schulz never married. She was the daughter of William J. Schulz
and Mary L. Peters.
William Schulz was born in Germany in May 1860 and immigrated to the USA in 1864
according to census records. He was a wood carver. Mary Peters was born Aug 1860 in Germany
and immigrated to the USA in 1871 according to census records. William and Mary were
married in Chicago, Illinois on 1 June 1889. Mildred had a sister named Marie who was born in
Illinois in September, 1894.
The family name is spelled consistently as SCHULZ in the city directory, census, birth and
marriage records that were located. The name is found spelled SCHULTZ in Mildred‟s obituary.
___________
Mildred: …and not a word, you had been there said that I had been there either one or one and
a half years and I thought you said that he started when it was in nineteen…..let‟s see nineteen
sixteen, I think he said. Near as he could remember he couldn‟t just remember either and the
other girl that worked there was a bookkeeper and I didn‟t know her too well, but she worked
downstairs and I know about two and a half to three years ago, my sister died, she lived with me
here and he, this girl sent a bouquet of flowers and I thanked her for it and everything, but since
that time I cannot find out where she is.
Interviewer: Was this before the first World War that you started to work for them or after the
first World War?
Mildred:
It was after.
Interviewer:
Mildred:
After. Sometime in the twenties, maybe?
I don‟t know, yes, I imagine so.
Interviewer:
But Mr. Voigt was still alive?
�2
Mildred:
Yes, all three of them. All three of them were still alive.
Interviewer: And Papa was a big fat man?
Mildred: The Papa was what?
Interviewer: That he was a pretty big man.
Mildred: Yes. You mean their father?
Interviewer: Yes, their father. Was he alive when you started to work there?
Mildred: Oh, no, I never saw him.
Interviewer: Oh, you never saw him?
Mildred: No. The brothers were the boss then.
Interviewer: I see. Who was the boss? Was it Carl that was the boss?
Mildred: No, Frank. He was the boss. That is, he was the older one, I don‟t know whether he
was the boss or not but. The rest of them wouldn‟t have it that he was boss when I‟m around, I
guess.
Interviewer:
worked?
I was wondering, how many hours a week, do you remember how long you
Mildred: How many hours?
Interviewer:
Mildred:
Did you work Saturday, you worked Saturdays?
No, we never worked on Saturdays.
Interviewer: Never worked on Saturdays?
Mildred: I think, once in a while on Saturday morning that we would come down you know
and I believe it‟s every third or fourth Saturday morning. And finally I said the man I work for I
said what‟s the use of coming down here on Saturday? I said you don‟t come down here until
twelve o‟clock. I said and that means I got to sit around all afternoon, you know just waiting for
your two or three letters. He said “well that‟s silly” he says I, he was kind of German, he talked
kind of German he said “that„s silly,” he said, “well, we won‟t come down anymore on
Saturday.”
Interviewer: Oh, that was kind of nice for you, gave you a day off, extra day off.
Mildred: Yes, and we quit at five o‟clock and as far as …
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Interviewer: What time did you go to work in the morning?
Mildred: Well, he said we could come anytime we wanted to; didn‟t make any difference to
them. As long as I had my, get my work finished, you know. And Carl was real nice too. I did
quite a lot of work for him.
Interviewer: Did you?
Mildred: He had more letters than anyone else.
Interviewer: Yes, was that because he did more like sales work for the…?
Mildred: Yes, you see Frank Voigt, I don‟t know, he never got around in time. I don‟t know he
slept too late or …what was the matter with him. But the younger Voigt, he was there on time. I
never took his work very much, some way or other.
Interviewer: Well, do you, were you conscience of their dividing up the responsibility like one
say was in charge of production and one in charge of sales. Or was it more or less formal than
that?
Mildred: No, it was kinds all the same, you know. Course they all had different jobs. The older
man that I worked for he just had a few letters a day and they were mostly personal. And the
middle one would handle most of the letters and things. Then I had charge of the all the bookings
of the flour. Like we sent flour to Australia and every place like that.
Interviewer: Oh, did you?
Mildred: Quite a few places and they would book maybe fifty cars or a hundred cars of flour
on certain date and then they would order it out. You know just as they needed it. They had the
various sizes. There were eighths and halves and all the different grades of flour.
Interviewer: I see.
Mildred: That was kind of a…
Interviewer: An eighth or half would be eighth of a car load or half a car load?
Mildred: No, there would be in eighths that would be like a eight pound sack or in it would be
half sacks you know and eight sacks like that.
Interviewer: I see.
Mildred:
Crescent was our main grade of flour.
Interviewer: Was the difference between Crescent Star a difference in quality? I mean one was
better flour than the other?
�4
Mildred:
No, the Crescent was a general flour used by almost all housewives and then their
Columbian flour was a spring wheat flour that was just that was just for bread. Suppose to just
for bread although you could make bread out of Crescent too. But it was more springy like, you
know, it was nice flour. The cake flour was that was what they called Royal Cake Flour that was
handled by all the fancy restaurants here in town.
Interviewer:
Mildred:
The pastry cooks.
It was a beautiful flour.
Interviewer: Yes, that was really finely milled bleached flour, I suspect.
Mildred: Yes, You know they would never, would put their cake flour in the little cartons like
you see it now days, you know and I used to say to them you know you‟d sell a lot more cake
flour I said if you put it in those fancy little cartons, you know. No, we don‟t want to do that.
They would never take advice from anyone. But see then the other people got all the flour orders
here in town – the cake flour orders - and they didn‟t. He says funny we don‟t sell more cake
flour. I said well I told you why. But he wouldn‟t take it that way.
Interviewer: Oh, that‟s funny. And they sold it as far away as Australia?
Mildred: Yes, Australia and I think it was Australia, foreign countries. They had several where
they would book maybe a hundred carloads of flour or something like that and then order it out
you know. They‟d try to book it, we had a little book where we translated how many barrels and
how many tons that they would book, you know. It was an interesting place to work and I don‟t
know why I stayed so long. Everybody said why don‟t you get out and get more money
someplace else maybe. I said, well I can walk back and forth from there. You know where the
mills were?
Interviewer:
Yes, down along the river, down here, weren‟t they?
Mildred: One was there and the other was the river at Pearl Street.
Interviewer: Yes, and that really you were within easy walking distance of your job.
Mildred: Yes, I was, you know, I could come home at noon and I don‟t know I kind of liked it
there, you know.
Interviewer:
Did that really pay less than other places in town?
Mildred: They did at that time. I thought. Of course nobody got what they get now, I guess
Interviewer: No, course I hope the prices aren‟t what they get now either. My goodness.
�5
Mildred: Well, it was a very nice place to work as far as that goes. That was the only thing I
never thought they paid quite as much as they should have and I know when I went to work for
the lawyer I‟d get quite a bit more money just to start and I didn‟t know a thing about law.
Interviewer: Do you remember how much they paid you when you quit? At the time you quit.
How much were you making?
Mildred: Well, what?
Interviewer: The time you quit working then how much were you making a week? How much
money did they pay you a week? I don‟t even know what wage scales were like then you know?
Mildred: Well, I don‟t remember it was pretty close to I think, it was pretty close to fifty dollars.
Maybe it was fifty, I don‟t know, I can‟t remember exactly how much it was. But I know I got
more at the lawyer‟s offices, but I didn‟t like it there. You know I didn‟t, after you learn law, did
you know much about law?
Interviewer: Not a great deal.
Mildred: After you learn law, why then it is very easy.
Interviewer: Yes, oh, we are working fine (referring to the tape recorder).
Mildred: The same thing all the time.
Interviewer: Probably monotonous, after you‟ve been in the mills.
Mildred: I imagine it would be, I was there five years and that was enough for me. I didn‟t like
the people I worked for too well.
Interviewer: That makes a difference. If the Voigt‟s were easy going, easy people to get along
with, was that true of all three brothers? That they were pretty easy to get along with?
Mildred: Yes
Interviewer: Or didn‟t you have much contact?
Mildred: Not among themselves, they fought like the dickens among themselves, just like
brothers do now days, you know, little kids as well as older ones. I don‟t know, they were always
nice to us. I like it, I think when I quit, well they all quit because they went out of business, you
see.
Interviewer: Yes, that was in the fifties sometime, was it?
Mildred: I don‟t remember the years they went out of business.
Interviewer: Yes.
�6
Mildred: They didn‟t like it because the men all went on strike, two different strikes. And they
weren‟t going to. I know, Ralph went out and said, if you fellows get cold out there, come on
down in the basement here, it will be warmer for you.
Interviewer: This is when they were on strike?
Mildred: This is when they were on strike, you know.
Interviewer: It was nice in those days, people knew you by name, when you worked for
somebody.
Mildred: You‟re always nice to the men, too. But, see they didn‟t get enough money, either.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mildred: That was the reason they went on strike you know.
Interviewer: Is, was the milling business, did they have somehow have a way for storing that
wheat up and stretching the milling season, or was it pretty seasonal business? Were you rushed
at some times of the year and no business at other?
Mildred: Sometimes in the year when they had new crops came on, why they have a spurt in the
business, but they did a real good business. Ralph says the reason we didn‟t lose any money in
our mill, that was the oldest one, I mean the younger one. I called on him when he was sick, the
reason we didn‟t have any great losses they way the firms do now a days and go out of business
is because we had it up here.
Interviewer: Bright boy.
Mildred: Yes.
Interviewer: Well, they didn‟t have labor unions to contend with and didn‟t have a lot of other
things I guess. They moved. They lived over on the West side, here for a long time.
Mildred: One time, on Mt. Vernon….
Interviewer: And then they moved over.
Mildred: It must have been a long time, before I went to work there.
Interviewer: I am sure it was.
Mildred: I can remember after that it was purchased by, let‟s see who was that, who did buy that
now? A home for people you came to town here that didn‟t have any work, you know.
Interviewer: Oh, Yes.
�7
Mildred: Until they could get work, they could stay there, you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mildred: What do they call that place? It is… they have a place now on College.
Interviewer: Is it Evangeline Booth?
Mildred: No,
Interviewer: No, I don‟t know what it is.
Mildred: It is real nice. I know a girl who lived there, she was trying to get a job and she finally
landed a job at the Voigt Milling Company. Then, they‟re supposed to get out and find a place to
live, you see.
Interviewer: How many of you worked in the office there?
Mildred: There were three of us up at the, that worked upstairs and I think there were eight who
worked downstairs.
Interviewer: Yes, you did secretary work but you also did booking, order booking.
Mildred: Yes,
Interviewer: It was probably a little more fun to have more variety.
Mildred: Yes,
Interviewer: Mr. Radke, that one that mentioned that is still living, was he in the office with
there you? A bookkeeper or something?
Mildred: He wasn‟t a bookkeeper. He did drive a truck for a long time. I don‟t know what he did
towards the last. He guess he acted like a salesman, too.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mildred: They wanted him to stay at the Voigt house; he and his wife stay there while after all
until they got the thing settled where they were going to go and what they were going to do. But
he said I don‟t want to be tied down there.
Interviewer: You went to see Ralph when he was sick? Just a few years ago?
Mildred: Yes, in the hospital and then he fell and broke his, I don‟t know his leg or just injured
it, I guess. And we went to the hospital to see him, my sister and I. And then we went to his
home several times to see him.
�8
Interviewer: Yes.
Mildred: And he said he appreciated it so much.
Interviewer: Have you been in the house, since they have made a museum out of it?
Mildred: What‟s that?
Interviewer: Have you been over in the house since they made a museum out of it?
Mildred: No, a friend of mine that wanted me to go there with her. They advertise in the paper to
come look at the house, and I said I have been in that house so many different times, why should
I pay money to go see it.
Interviewer: Yes, was he in the downstairs bedroom, when you went over, was he using the
downstairs bedroom?
Mildred: I don‟t know if it was a downstairs bedroom or something they made into a bedroom.
Interviewer: Actually it was bedroom because there is a bathroom right beside it.
Mildred: Is that right?
Interviewer: It was Mr. and Mrs. Voigt‟s bedroom, at one time. And then the kids were all
upstairs.
Mildred: Is the third floor still there?
Interviewer: The third floor is, was a ballroom, I guess. Now, it is just full of storage. They have
an awful lot of stuff stored up there.
Mildred: Oh. I imagine so.
Interviewer: Because…
Mildred: Because the last time I went there, no it was another time that I went there, and he had
all kinds of fancy little vases you know, awful pretty things and so I said, “What are you going to
do with all these vases?” I thought maybe he would give me one seeing how I worked for him
for so many years. He said, “Nobody is going to get anything around here until after I‟m gone.”
Interviewer: He was pretty generous to leave that house to the city.
Mildred: He didn‟t know what to do with it, you see. He was the last one, he had a niece that
wanted, but she had a home of her own, too. But he was always so crazy about her. The first time
I met her I couldn‟t see her for dust, I don‟t know. She was kind of rough and tall.
Interviewer: Was that Mrs. Perkins‟ daughter?
�9
Mildred: Yes, Mrs. Perkins‟ daughter. Mrs. Perkins was so nice. The sisters were real nice. Did
you know Mrs. Hake?
Interviewer: I‟ve never known any of them because I have just been in town for three or four
years. I Mrs. Perkins and Mrs. Hake were both very nice people, weren‟t they?
Mildred: Yes, Dr. Hake use to be my father‟s doctor.
Interviewer: Oh, did he?
Mildred: He was a very good doctor, but he was kind of rough talking too, you know? But he
got the people cured, I guess.
Interviewer: Well, that‟s the main thing, I guess. Miss Emma Voigt, the one who always stayed
at home, didn‟t marry. We hear less about her, than we do about the others.
Mildred: She was real nice.
Interviewer: Oh, was she? You probably remember her?
Mildred: I never knew her too well, but she would come down to the mill once in a while. She
would come in and shake hands with us, she was friendly.
Interviewer: Yes, one of the people who came through, used, came through on one of the days
we had the house open, worked at the house one time. And she was telling us that…..
Mildred: What was her name? Dort something
Interviewer: Mrs. Dorr, and I don‟t know what her first name was.
Mildred: What was her name?
Interviewer: Dorr, I think it was.
Mildred: Oh, I remember she was there when Carl was sick. I guess with the last sickness he had,
she took care of him.
Interviewer: Oh, he was married at one time too, wasn‟t he? I heard from someone that she was
a very pretty woman. She must have died?
Mildred: You mean Carl‟s wife? I never met her or anything. But I know he always called
himself a bachelor.
Interviewer: Oh,
Mildred: So, I said to the people at work, “hasn‟t he ever been married?” They said, “oh yes, he
is no bachelor.” He wanted me to think, he was a bachelor.
�10
Interviewer: A gay blade!
Mildred: He married, I understand some woman that lived in Chicago and she had a job in one
of the big stores there, Marshall Fields, or some big store. She worked there.
Interviewer: Oh.
Mildred: They said. I don‟t know, I never met her. He went to Chicago at different times. They
were a peculiar family in regards to a car; nobody could have any car, only the Voigt car.
Interviewer: Just one?
Mildred: And whenever they went any place they had to go together.
Interviewer: Oh, my, that‟s not very modern.
Mildred: I couldn‟t understand it.
Interviewer: You mean each one of those brothers, didn‟t have a car of his own?
Mildred: No.
Interviewer: Just the Voigt car?
Mildred: Just the Voigt car.
Interviewer: That must have led to a lot of fights, I would think.
Mildred: I think so too. They seemed perfectly happy over it.
Interviewer: Did they have a chauffeur, or did they drive it themselves?
Mildred: Ralph drove it.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mildred: Ralph always drove it.
Interviewer: Was it a big car? They go for a pretty big drive?
Mildred: The older brother never went with them on these trips, as far as I know.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mildred: He would fight with them all the time, I guess. Well, we had a lot of fun in that place
though, awful lot of fun.
Interviewer: Oh, that‟s good. I think that matters almost as much as being paid. You know you
can stand to be paid a little less if you are having a good time when you work. You found that
�11
out when you went to work for the lawyers, I guess, didn‟t you. There is more to life than
money.
Mildred: Oh, dear, I don‟t know. The older of the lawyer fellows was very brilliant. He was one
of these big fat fellows that we always called him “five-five”. I don‟t know people came and
called from all over for his advice.
Interviewer: Yes,
Mildred: So. I guess he must have been very brilliant. And the middle one, I went to court one
day for a trial. In the court, he keeled over, and had a stroke or something. I think it was a
stroke. They took him to the hospital and he only lived a few days. Just before that, he had called
me up. I was on a jury case. He called me up and said this girl was going on a vacation. That was
after I had quit you see. Would I take over and come and work for him? I said sure I would be
glad to. I worked for him mostly anyway there. Then somebody said he keeled over in court,
you know, I couldn‟t imagine.
Interviewer: That‟s really bad.
Mildred: His wife always said she had a hard time trying to calming him down, he always got
excited about every case he had, you know.
Interviewer: Probably had high blood pressure, nobody knew it in those days.
Mildred: I am have too, mine‟s two hundred and ten.
Interviewer: Oh, really?
Mildred: The time before I last went to the doctor and the last time I went to the doctor, it was
down about thirty-five degrees.
Interviewer: You‟ve improved. You‟re not ever going to let it that high…
Mildred: I don‟t know why it would be so high; here I am all by myself…
Interviewer: You don‟t feel like you get excited that much, huh? Say, one story you could
probably check out for us is somebody told us, you know we are always picking up rumors. You
know when we go to check them out, not all of them turn out to be true. One of the things we had
told to us was when you worked in the office down there, they were very stingy about electric
lights and you had to cluster the desks together, so you could all work off one light bulb. Was
that true?
Mildred: I didn‟t understand just what you said, about the windows?
�12
Interviewer: No, the light bulbs, that they didn‟t use, that somebody told us you had to put the
desks together so you could all use the same light bulb in the office, that they didn‟t want to have
two or three lights burning, that‟s not true.
Mildred: We ran the thing, we were in an office by ourselves, and they had their offices, we had
our toilet, and they had their toilet. But they were always using ours. I don‟t know why, but….
Interviewer: Maybe they like it better. Did the brothers have a private office of their own or did
they share an office?
Mildred: Ralph‟s office was downstairs, that‟s the younger one; he had just a desk downstairs.
And the other two had the other two rooms upstairs.
Interviewer: So they each had an office and he didn‟t rate an office by himself?
Mildred: It didn‟t have anything to do with the lights; we ran the thing to suit ourselves.
Interviewer: Oh, you did.
Mildred: And the heat and everything, we ran by ourselves.
Interviewer: They didn‟t tell you, you couldn‟t have enough heat.
Mildred: No.
Interviewer: You know these rumors get started, one of the rumors that we had heard…
Mildred: How did you happen to get my name?
Interviewer: Now, I‟ll have to look.
Mildred: I know there is a place here in town that handles all the stuff from the homes like that.
Interviewer: Hmmm. Now, I don‟t know how we got your name. I, all the women who worked
down there put down on cards the names of anybody they had heard that was connected with the
family or the business and I‟m suppose to check them out and sometimes I don‟t even know how
the name came. Now there‟s a Mrs. Balser, who worked for the Voigts. Here is Radke
Mildred: Radke.
Interviewer: Radke. On the west side, lives at Tamarack, it says here.
Mildred: He did live there for awhile.
Interviewer: He‟s on Ninth Street.
�13
Mildred: His wife died and he got married again and I imagine he bought this house on Ninth
because I called him up the other night.
Interviewer: He‟s mentioned and I haven‟t been to see him yet, and there is another one here Mr.
Ralph Zacharias.
Mildred: Mr.who?
Interviewer: Ralph Zacharias.
Mildred: No, I never knew him.
Interviewer: It says he worked for the Voigt Mills eight eighty-one Sixty-first Street, southeast.
That would be way southeast. Well, you know sometimes I‟ve checked out a couple of these
names and it turns out they haven‟t been, they haven‟t known the Voigt‟s
Mildred: They may have worked in the mill, you know storing and packing of flour.
Interviewer: Yes, and that flour was really well known, wasn‟t it as far as all over the Midwest.
Mildred: It was very good flour and they had a very good business, they always did have. I don‟t
know what happened; they didn‟t want to give the fellows any more money. They wanted to
hang on to their money.
Interviewer: It was hard because they felt like their father had built up the business.
Mildred: Yes. It used to be the Voigt Herpolsheimer Company.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mildred: Of course, I didn‟t know that.
Interviewer: That was before your time, then.
Mildred: Yes, that was the old man, their father.
Interviewer: Did they ever speak of him very much?
Mildred: Once in a great while. No, I never heard. I never did hear them talk about him. I asked
Ralph one time, How come you never got married, I said to Ralph you know and he said “My
goodness, I have too much to take care of here. How can I take care of all that? I couldn‟t keep a
house and do that too.” I said “your father did” and I think he had seven or eight or nine
children. “He was married and had all those kids.” And he said “times were different then.”
Interviewer: Yes.
Mildred: I know he went with a woman a long time.
�14
Interviewer: Didn‟t get married?
Mildred: Didn‟t get married. As far as I know anyway.
Interviewer: The sisters never did come to the business, except occasionally.
Mildred: They had an interest in the buildings I guess when they first bought those two mills;
then the sisters had part of it. I know when they sold the mills, the sister Emma got a certain
portion of it.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mildred: Mrs…..The other one, what is her name now, the younger one?
Interviewer: Mrs. Perkins.
Mildred: Perkins, Mrs. Perkins, she was gone then but her daughter and son got the mother‟s
share.
Interviewer: Her son was Voigt Perkins, right?
Mildred: Right, Voigt Perkins.
Interviewer: Then her daughter married a man named DuBay [Dubee], and they have got one
son.
Mildred: None of them liked [Arend V.] Dubee. I don‟t know why, he used to work at Michigan
Trust Co. and I used to know a girl that worked there and she didn‟t like him either. She said he
never did anything to me.
Interviewer: Their son, Charles Dubee has just been in the hospital with a heart attack for. He is
such a young man, too, just in his forties. He‟s had a very severe coronary….
Mildred: I saw him at Ralph‟s funeral, I think. He was there. I thought he was Voigt Perkins
because he looked so much like him.
Interviewer: Yes. Did they all run to be heavy people?
Mildred: Were they what?
Interviewer: Were they all pretty heavy people?
Mildred: No, just the older fellow, Frank .He was the only one that was heavy, the rest of them
were just medium.
Interviewer: Yes.
�15
Mildred: Well, Ralph inclined to be that way a little bit too.
Interviewer: Not spectacularly, this young Dubee guy is really heavy.
Mildred: Nice looking man, like my sister said when we went there the first time and she said
look he‟s still stylish looking. He was an old man then but you couldn‟t help but realize that he
was like he was kind of almost nobility, you might say.
Interviewer: That‟s good to know.
Mildred: He wanted everybody to think that he was a little better than the rest of them. I don‟t
know why, I just had that opinion. Carl never paid any attention and Frank didn‟t either.
Interviewer: Neither of them went east to school. Now Ralph went east to college, didn‟t he? He
went to Yale. The other brothers didn‟t, did they?
Mildred: I don‟t know whether the older one ever went, but the second one, no, he couldn‟t even
get through school he said his dad had to take him out of school and put him in Howe University.
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
Mildred: Someplace in Ohio I guess. So they said they had to do that with him. I said how come
Ralph went to Yale, because I didn‟t he was quite as brilliant as the rest of them. Well, He said
my father put him through Yale. I said well that‟s it then, it‟s the money isn‟t it? And Ralph
heard me say that but he said it no wasn‟t the money he would not have that way. Carl said to
Ralph you know she is right don‟t you.
Interviewer: You talk to me like you had a pretty free life there?
Mildred: We did, we had a nice…
Interviewer: Well, that‟s good, are you alone here? Do you live alone now?
Mildred: My sister died two and a half years ago.
Interviewer: This is pretty good that you are able to stay on and take care of the house, be here
by yourself.
Mildred: Everybody says I‟m real brave, but my sister‟s bedroom was there and I can‟t even
clean in there, I go all to pieces.
Interviewer: Yes, well it is hard when you lived with someone for awhile.
Mildred: I had her right in my arms. I was lifting her from her chair. I was going to put her in
bed. I had right a hold of her. She just grunted three times and fell over and then I couldn‟t hang
on to her. I tried to call a neighbor that was around over there mowing the lawn. He was gone I
�16
couldn‟t get him. I finally got my sister‟s sister-in-law and her husband; they just got in the
house. They got here within ten or fifteen minutes. She was gone. I knew she was gone then. I
thought so anyway.
Interviewer: Yes, oh, dear. How long have you been retired?
Mildred: Let‟s see, about ten years, I guess. I retired when I was sixty-eight, you see.
Interviewer: Hmmm. Sort of nice these days, nowadays they make you retire.
Mildred: … about twelve years
Mildred: Well, I have a woman staying upstairs. She works at American Laundry, and her
husband died just before she came here. She didn‟t want to stay in the house anymore where she
lived. She wanted to stay on this side of the river. I don‟t know why she lived here, because her
place of work is on the other side of the river. I couldn‟t understand it, you know.
INDEX
B
P
Balser, Mrs. · 13
Perkins Family · 9, 14, 15
D
R
Dubee Family · 14, 15
Radke, Mr. · 7
H
V
Hake Family · 9
Voigt Family · 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15
Voigt Milling Company · 7
Voigt, Ralph · 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b90928beade4c1cf2ee13d5d0aa4d404.mp3
f406e3a71f01d19205ee98cfa3e65381
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories
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Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
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Various
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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eng
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RHC-23
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1971 - 1977
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RHC-23_53Schulz
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Schulz, Mildred
Creator
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Schulz, Mildred
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Mildred Schulz was born in 1890. She worked for Voigt Milling Company as a secretary and bookkeeper for Frank Voigt. She died on January 6, 1985 at the age of 94.
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Subject
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Michigan--History
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Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Women
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eng
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1974
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bce7a773d89015269d1fec51a9b34f6c.pdf
169058ef9eec272619643f944aeda675
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mr. and Mrs. George (Helen) Jackoboice
Interviewed November 5, 1974
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010-bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape # 52 (1:33:37)
Biographical Information
George Adolphe Jackoboice was born 17 June 1908, the son of Edward J. Jackoboice and Helen
Matilda Hake. George was married to Helen Gast about 1937. George passed away 12 January
1987 in Grand Rapids and is buried at Mt. Calvary Cemetery. He was chairman of Monarch
Hydraulics, Inc. Besides three sons and their families, George was survived by his wife, Helen.
Helen Gast was born 7 August 1910 in Grand Rapids and was the daughter of Peter B. Gast and
Emily Alt. Helen died 31 December 2008 in Grand Rapids at the age of 98 years. Helen‟s father,
Peter Gast was born in Westphalia, Michigan in 1874, the son of Bernard and Teressa (Platte)
Gast. Helen‟s mother, Emily Alt was born in Grand Rapids about 1875, the daughter of Nicholas
Alt. The parents were married in Grand Rapids on 29 June 1899.
____________
Interviewer: But you were related to Mrs. Hake‟s family?
George: Yes.
Is it your grand, your mother or was…
Interviewer:
George: My?
Interviewer:
How‟s that?
George: Clara Voigt Hake, and I differentiate because I also had a Clara Jackoboice, who was an
aunt. But Clara Voigt was married to my mother‟s brother.
Interviewer: Yes.
George:
Interviewer:
Doctor William F. Hake.
Yes.
George:
That‟s the background, and but as families we had been well acquainted of course
for several generations. Not…
Interviewer:
George:
And you‟re an old Grand Rapids family too, right?
Yes, we are.
�2
Interviewer:
Is it your daughter-in-law, Barbara Jackoboice, who teaches French?
Both George and Helen: Yes.
Helen:
That‟s Tom‟s wife.
I have a friend who‟s taking French lessons from her.
Interviewer:
Helen:
Oh, really.
Interviewer:
Yes, it‟s Peggy Strong and she‟s doing a Smith‟s Club tour of France this year
and she‟s brushing up on conversational French…
Helen:
Oh, I see.
Interviewer: …with Barbara, yes.
George:
Barbara‟s very proficient.
Helen:
Oh, she‟s lovely, very lovely.
George:
She graduated from Stanford but spent a year in Paris at the Sorbonne.
Interviewer:
So she speaks French like French people.
Oh, yes fluently. She lived with a French family when she was…
George:
Interviewer:
Well, that‟s nice. You‟re younger than any of the Hake brothers though, aren‟t
you or the Voigt brothers?
George:
Helen:
Oh, yes.
They were really friends of the family.
George:
My family. My mother and my father.
Interviewer:
George:
I was going to say that you, that they would be.
Oh, another generation, oh yes.
Interviewer:
Another generation removed from you. You remember any of them though? The
Hakes, Voigts?
Interviewer:
George:
Yes, did you know them well?
Knew them all.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes, because we‟d gotten in some interesting things. I had a talk last week to
a gal who‟s a secretary in the Voigt mills, you know?
�3
Helen:
Yes.
She worked for Frank mostly. And…
Interviewer:
That‟s a long time ago.
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Yes. Oh, this is right after the First World War
Yes. Cause he has been dead for years.
Interviewer:
Helen:
Who was that?
Interviewer:
Helen:
Yes.
Her name was Mildred Schulz and …
Did you know her, George?
George:
No, but Mary Orth, worked over there for years and years. Unfortunately, now Mary
Orth, if she were alive would tell you an awful lot.
Helen:
She‟s gone.
Interviewer:
Yes, she‟s well, this Miss Schulz said she couldn‟t remember but one person
that she thought worked in the offices over there that might still be alive, besides herself. And
she‟s just a pretty old lady. Her memory wasn‟t good on dates when things had happen. She was
in think well up in her eighties. And it was funny cause the week before I talked to a Mrs.
McLachlan who was the daughter of the man, who built the house. A man named Jungbaecker,
John Jungbaecker. And I think he built for the Hake family.
George:
Hotel.
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
Yes. I think he also built, I‟m guessing, but I think, he also built the old Charlevoix
Oh, did he?
Where the Olds Manor is now, my family once owned.
Oh, I didn‟t know that.
George:
Well, originally it was known as the Rasch House way back in early history. Frances
Rasch is my grandmother. And then the Rasch House was replaced by a hotel called the
Clarendon. And then the Clarendon had a name change and was called the Charlevoix. Because a
man by the name of Bedford, who had the island house in Charlevoix, had a second operation in
Grand Rapids and that was the Charlevoix Hotel. We did not operate the hotel. We owned the
building and the land and leased it to Bedford. Bedford incidentally was one of the two men
who killed, murdered King Strang. Remember the story of…?
�4
Interviewer:
Yes, Bedford was ….
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Helen:
Yes, I remember very well. We always said he was so dapper in his youth.
He was.
Interviewer:
Are you also a native of Grand Rapids?
Yes, my maiden name was Gast. So Peter was my father.
Interviewer:
George:
Helen:
One of the better known murder cases around here.
You remember old Bedford?
George:
Helen:
Oh yes, I remember reading that, in the old papers.
Oh, yes. A well known family.
Gast Motor Sales.
My mother was an Alt.
Interviewer:
Well, that‟s interesting. You both have such deep roots.
George:
Well, yes, you see this is all interwoven traditionally and historically with originally
the west side. Of course…
Interviewer:
George:
there.
Now was your family a west side family originally?
Originally except my mother. She was born on the hill up on Ransom & Crescent
Interviewer:
Oh, yes, right on top of it.
George:
You see her maiden name was H-A- K-E; which is the maiden name or which is the
name of her brother who married Clara Voigt. The, I‟m almost tempted…
Interviewer:
George:
That parking lot occupies the site now.
Interviewer:
George:
Helen:
Ransom & Crescent would be where the hospital was.
Yes.
It‟s a… I have, excuse me. [George leaves to retrieve some items]
This must be interesting work for you.
Interviewer:
It‟s fun for me. I came here about four years ago and part, I was then in the
process of trying to get my master‟s degree which I‟ve since given up on because I was working
�5
out of an Ohio university. I was too far along and couldn‟t transfer enough credits. But in the
course of doing some work. I did a lot of research into early Michigan history. I got just
fascinated with Grand Rapids so I consequently took a course at Michigan history and wrote a
paper on Grand Rapids „cause I think it‟s so fascinating.
Helen:
Well, how wonderful.
Well, it‟s just fascinating.
Interviewer:
Helen:
Oh, I‟d love to read it.
Interviewer:
Well, the interesting part of it was trying to explain how Grand Rapids came to
be here, because it didn‟t really have all the natural advantages of some of the other cities. And
yet it got to be the second biggest city in the state. And I worked on the, trying to explain why.
[George returns into the room]
George:
This was a program on the occasion of my grandfather and grandmother‟s Fiftieth
wedding anniversary.
Interviewer:
George:
Oh, and this would be William Hake?
And this is the picture when they were married.
Interviewer:
Yes, isn‟t that nice?
And then as you turn the pages you‟ll, that‟s when they were on their Fiftieth
George:
Isn‟t that beautiful? They were two fine looking people.
Interviewer:
George:
Yes, they were.
Interviewer:
Helen:
Is she in the portrait over the mantel?
Yes.
Interviewer:
I thought, but, that was taken at a younger age than this but she‟s a very
handsome woman. Oh, this tells the family history then.
George:
Yes, pretty much till that time.
Interviewer: And he also was German background.
George:
Oh, yes.
Interviewer: I wasn‟t sure what the name Hake was.
�6
George:
He came from a little town called Dunschede, which is northwest of Cologne
[Germany].
Interviewer:
George:
Have you been back there?
Oh, yes.
Interviewer:
Chased down your family?
George:
Yes, we go to Europe quite often. Then, she was born in Altensteig in the Black
Forest, Germany, which is near Freiburg.
Interviewer:
Helen:
You mentioned the home is shown somewhere there too, a picture.
Such a pretty old home.
Interviewer:
Helen:
She had, they had fifteen children.
Interviewer:
George:
Which one was your mother?
My mother was Matilda, Helen Matilda.
Interviewer:
George:
Matilda. She was one of the younger children.
Yes, she was
Interviewer:
George:
She was quite a bit younger than Doctor Hake, wasn‟t she?
Yes, but they were very close.
Interviewer:
George:
Helen:
Oh, how many children there were?
Yes, oh, isn‟t this neat?
Course everything.
You must tell about his love for the, not having any children of their own…
George:
Doctor Hake graduated, I believe from the University of Michigan (I‟ll have to
check that). And they never had a family of their own. That is the Doctor and Clara, but he was,
he offered his services free, as long as he lived, to St. John‟s Home to the villa, the Sisters of the
Good Shepherd which is now Villa Maria. The Sisters of the Poor. And he did all the…
Interviewer:
…did all their medical for free - for the children.
Interviewer: Gee, that was remarkable.
�7
George:
He did all that as long as he lived. He was a quite charitable man. I think that
probably folly for me to presume, but I would believe that he was disappointed he didn‟t have a
family.
Interviewer:
Yes, cause in those days people had pretty large families. Yes and the Voigts
were large family too originally.
Interviewer:
That‟s right. Well, you now once in a while when we‟re working around the
Voigt house we pick up the, pick up a story that somehow the family, the mother and father
didn‟t approve of the children getting married. And we have heard yes and no on that, from
different people. Do you have any knowledge of how they felt about that?
George:
other.
Interviewer:
George:
I know that, I believe Frank whom you mentioned never married and I forget the
Carl was married there for awhile, wasn‟t he?
Well, you never knew much about that was always kind of a…
Interviewer:
That‟s an interesting thing, because I met this little old ninety-one-year old that
remembers his wife as being very beautiful.
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
And Ralph never married.
No, I know that.
That isn‟t to say they probably on occasion didn‟t have an affair, but I don‟t know.
But they never officialized it.
No, no no.
Interviewer:
Never settled down and had a family. That‟s interesting. This house that your,
that shows here, now where was this house?
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
That‟s where the parking lot of the Butterworth Hospital.
This is Ransom and Crescent?
Yes, that‟s where it is now. There‟s nothing left.
There‟s nothing left of it. And that‟s a beautiful house.
Yes, it was a large, large grounds there.
It must kill you to see what happens to some of the beautiful old houses.
Yes,
�8
Helen:
It really does.
Interviewer:
It‟s a nice thing to have that.
George:
The others, of course, the doctor and Clara went to Europe, I don‟t know on how
many different visits, but I know that, see he was Catholic, she was not.
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Yes, she was an Episcopalian.
She was buried in St. Mark‟s church, absolutely.
She also had very friendly relationships with the Catholic Church.
Oh, yes. That‟s right.
„Because she was widowed I understand and did a lot of things for them.
Yes, she was a, you obviously never knew her.
No, no.
Of course, Helen I think was her favorite in-laws.
Helen:
She was very, very nice to me. I remember the time that my engagement was going to
be announced and my sister had a formal tea for me. So I invited, of course, the aunts that were
living and I didn‟t know her but she did come to the tea. And I always remember she sent me
just a beautiful bouquet of flowers and a corsage. She wanted to wear that day because…
Interviewer:
Wasn‟t that sweet?
Helen:
I thought that it was very sweet. And so on every, we were married on the seventeenth
of June and so on every seventeenth of June, every anniversary, I had a phone call at eight
o‟clock in the morning saying, “Hello.” She had a very deep voice, she‟d say, “Do you know
who this is? This is your Aunt Clara wishing you a happy anniversary.” Well, I thought it was
very sweet. I always have very nice memories of her because she was so nice to me. And on
various occasions we would be at a restaurant, maybe at the Pen Club or at the Schnitzlebank and
a drink would be set before us. Now maybe we didn‟t see her with her brothers in the corner and
it would be compliments of the Voigts.
Interviewer: Wasn‟t that nice?
Helen: So that‟s my little story as an in-law.
Interviewer:
Oh, that‟s a really nice one.
George:
You see the, we‟ve been in the machinery business in Grand Rapids for a hundred
and eighteen years.
�9
Interviewer:
What firm are you?
George:
Monarch Road Machinery Company. Originally it was, or prior to the Monarch
Road Machinery it was known as the West Side Iron Works. And before that it was know under
my grandfather‟s name, Joseph Jackoboice. Well. The building….
Interviewer:
George:
He was French, originally
No, he was not.
Interviewer:
He‟s not?
Interviewer:
I was just guessing.
George:
Well, that‟s an interesting story. I won‟t be too long at it, but actually first of all my
grandmother Hake came from Altensteig, my grandmother Rasch came from Breisgau and my
grandfather came from Westphalia. But my grandfather Jackoboice came from a border city
which was then Duchy of Warsaw and but was adjacent as a border city to the kingdom of
Prussia. Actually, officially he was no, he was born according to unconfirmed reports it‟s hard to
get any verification because the records have been in such disarray, some of them were bombed
out in World War Two. He was actually born in Poland.
Interviewer:
Was he born in the Corridor, the Polish Corridor?
George:
No, no it was further south. It was in that area well, Bohemia was in there and so on.
Like many of the old families in town here, the Rasches or the Herpolsheimers for example,
came from what generally is known as Bohemia and so on. And he came to this country alone.
He came when there were less than seven thousand people of his nationality in this country.
Interviewer:
George:
What year was that?
Eighteen fifty-two.
Interviewer:
Yes, he was an early arrival.
George:
He came with an education and he came with money. And he never spoke of his past.
He never corresponded. He was a very, very successful man but he lived, he had good health
until he died. Never looked back.
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Did he drop, did he drop his accent and come, make an effort to learn English.
Oh, he spoke English beautifully.
He never spoke in his native language?
I don‟t know. „Cause he was born before I.
�10
Helen:
He spoke in German; we never knew it, until about a few years ago.
George:
My father and my Aunt Clara Jackoboice, now that‟s Clara the other Clara, spoke
beautiful German. They wrote the old German script. But why this man came here alone he
obviously didn‟t come over because of any military problem because he was past that age, he as I
say came with an education, because he came with money.
Interviewer:
Maybe investment.
George:
Well, at the time, at the time that people came in eighteen fifty-two, in the eighteen
fifties, in general, they came for political reasons, not for economic reasons.
Interviewer:
George:
That would be before Bismarck, wouldn‟t it?
Yes, it was after Metternich.
Interviewer:
That‟s right, just after Metternich.
George:
The Congress of Vienna. He was born in eighteen twenty-four. But it‟s kind of a
mystery as to why; he was the first, absolutely the first of his nationality to be in Grand Rapids one of the very first to be in the United States. Well, anyway that‟s a long and different story.
But…
Interviewer:
George:
And he came and set up immediately than as a…
In business, yes. He was very, very successful and the business continues now.
Interviewer:
Under the same family.
George:
Same family. But the building you see on this started with the Voigts, the building
you see on the west side of the river which is red and white is called the old German
Schoolhouse, was his factory. It wasn‟t his first, it was his fourth.
Helen:
When that‟s all lit up at night. George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
Yes.
Oh, yes.
You see it from the Civic Auditorium.
And that was your family‟s original or fourth one?
It still is. We still own it.
You still own it.
We illuminate it at night and ….
Did you keep it as a historic…?
�11
George:
Yes, it‟s on the roster of the city‟s historic buildings, officially, declared by the city
commissioner about a year ago. And, but right across the street were the two old Star Mills
which were also owned by the Voigts. Now the mills that…
Interviewer:
Was the Crescent Mill very far from the Star Mill?
George:
It was three blocks away, three blocks north of the Star Mills. I mean the Crescent
Mills were at Pearl Street and the Star Mills were near Bridge Street. The Star Mills were kind of
a secondary manufacturing...
Interviewer:
George:
The Crescent Mill was the big operation.
Yes, yes.
Interviewer:
And that was a rolling mill for, first row, I mean they took up rolling mill rather
than grindstone.
George:
Well, I don‟t know, possibly they had. But they were of course originally you know
they were partners with Herpolsheimers, the store, you‟ve heard that, of course. Do you know
Bill Hardy in town here?
Interviewer: No, I don‟t.
George:
Well, Bill was a Herpolsheimer.
Interviewer: Is that why they have the Hardy-Herpolsheimer‟s Store at Kalamazoo?
George:
Yes, well I guess part of the reason.
Interviewer: That‟s part of the reason?
George:
But, the Voigts of course with my father well his company always did all the
millwright work, in the mills. So there was a strong business relation between the Voigts and
ourselves, as well as family relationship.
Interviewer: Now you made machine too machinery.
George:
Oh, yes. We were manufacturers, yes but we also used to do they used to build
steam engines and things saw-mill machinery log-mill machinery. Band saws, rip saws. Now
we‟re entirely power hydraulic controls and systems. Actually we don‟t make any road
machinery. It‟s all sophisticated devices for operating other components on other people‟s
products and so on.
Interviewer:
Someone starts a machine you have things in there that keep it going.
�12
George:
Yes, for example this is farfetched but in Disneyland in Florida for example, I bet
you we must have twenty-five to fifty of our controls, that help control the automation. And
they‟re all hidden you never see them.
Interviewer: So you‟re actually in the systems controls business now rather than the fabrication
of metals.
George:
Yes, we (???) it‟s all very much involved in some oil hydraulics or in a segment of
it. So, but anyway, because of that „across the street‟ connection and „three blocks away‟
connection, why the Voigts of the Voigt people were in our place all the time. Back in those days
of course more things were done by horse and buggy and on foot that now as and it was very
informal. And the Leitelts, I don‟t know if you‟ve ever heard that name?
Interviewer: No, I haven‟t.
George: But Adolph Leitelt and my father were very close friends. Well, years once upon a
year, there was a, my father and his company had always done most of the major maintenance.
Well in spite of this close family tie and also the relationship with the Leitelts, that was Adolph
Leitelt„s iron works which was across the river. And the Voigt senior told my father, my dad tells
this story, he says Ed, I want you to know take care of this boiler problem so he had his crew
over there Monday morning. But prior to the arrival of my father‟s people Leitelt‟s people were
there. And there was quite a who does, who does this job? And they were all close friends, you
know.
Interviewer: Competitive.
George: So my dad just withdrew but they, the mills and their people always had a friendly
habit, anytime they wanted a little job done, they‟d come to my father‟s place and so he‟d say oh
go ahead and use the machinery and forget it. Well, after this happened they came over and he
said, “Fellows, I‟m sorry but why don‟t you go to Leitelts to have that.” Well, that brought out
the Voigts in their hiding and the thing came out in the open. And Dad said, “Listen, Voigt
senior told me explicitly to take care of this, and I did. But when I arrived, Adolf Leitelt‟s crew
were there.” So and then they went on to explain Voigt senior well, he said, “Ed, I‟m awfully
sorry but I told you this in full sincerity and my sons not knowing what I had done called Adolph
Leitelt.” He said, “So it‟s the tempest of the teapot.” It was all straightened out they laughed
about it, you know. But…
Interviewer: Did any of the social relations in among the families, was the fact that you were all
Germans and German in background a strong factor in the fact that you all got along so well.
George:
I think so.
Interviewer: They tended to have feelings about it.
�13
George:
They thought quite a bit alike. Clara Voigt, and I have to be historically honest,
could be well, a little bit dramatic and little bit volatile at times you know. And maybe you sense
that.
Interviewer: She was sort of, the people I‟ve known that talked to that remembered her at all,
remember her [as] a certain grand dame.
George:
Yes, she was.
Interviewer:
A grand old lady.
Helen:
She wore the wide black-belted band with the big diamond, or she had a lot of big
diamonds that she wore. She was a small lady, I mean a short lady and she always was all
dressed up.
George:
She, I know every, my Grandfather Hake lived to be ninety-four and he was a very,
very active, alert vital man right up to the day he died, he was only sick a week, died of
pneumonia and that was it. But until his ninety-third year he‟d swim in Lake Michigan and I
don‟t mean paddle around to his knees, he‟d really swim. And he would always a very tall, very
erect man. And he would always walk down to St. Mary‟s Church although he also belonged to
St. Andrews Cathedral, and he was, he retired after all these children. He retired in his sixties and
lived in a grand manner until he died. But in this process of living, I would say for his time the
good life he would have his children come up there practically every week. There were always
one of the sons or daughters up there visiting. And he loved company. He would never associate
with old people he says that makes me old; he wanted to be with young people. And so
practically every Sunday night during the winter months there‟s be some family up there and
invariably they‟d play cards. He loved to play Hearts or Poker. And when they were playing,
why it was always the Voigts here and the Hakes here and they‟re all gunning for each other.
They really had a rather…
Interviewer: Now, we have some kind of information. And now I can‟t remember who gave it
to us, that when they played cards they played cards in a special room upstairs, in the Voigt
house. They didn‟t play downstairs, in the house, that they used an upstairs back room and that
they used to listen to the radio and play cards.
George:
That must have been later in years.
Interviewer: In later years, yes. And we kind of got the feeling that old Mr. Hake err, or old Mr.
Voigt ran that family with rather a strong…..
George: He did. From what I‟d always heard. I never knew the father, I did know Ralph and
Carl, quite well, and of course my Aunt.
Interviewer: Well even Ralph and Carl were enough older than you were.
�14
George: Oh, yes.
Interviewer: Be in the next generation.
George:
To get back, you see years ago when their offices were down on Pearl Street, the big
mill. But they always had the old, the remnants of the old horse barn. And so they would park
their car there and Ralph generally would walk. You could always tell when Ralph and Carl
weren‟t getting along even though they lived in the same house, if they rode together to the
parking place three blocks up they were friends. But if Ralph, who generally always drove
walked back alone, they probably had some misunderstanding. Now that doesn‟t mean they were
ever mad for very long.
Interviewer: No, but natural family things.
George: Yeah, that‟s right.
Interviewer: Well, I always heard they only ever owned one car.
George:
I‟ve never known them to own two.
Interviewer: Yes, even though the two were grown businessmen, they operated out of one car.
George:
Well, typical of that, you know Carl until he died wore button shoes.
Interviewer:
Oh, no.
George: Oh, sure. He always wore button shoes.
Interviewer: A real modern.
Helen: He‟d always say if we met him, remember the day we were leaving on a trip day before
we were in the bank and we met him and he said uh, “Now when you get home, come over to my
museum.”
Interviewer: He called the house a museum?
George: Yes.
Interviewer: I also heard that, what precipitated their decision to go out, you know to decide not
to operate the mill anymore was when they ran into union trouble. Was that true?
George:
Well, that was, I think part of it, but they also ran into tremendous competition from
General Mills, Pillsbury and people like that.
Helen: Who would they have left it to?
Interviewer: Well, that‟s the…
�15
Helen:
They had nobody.
Interviewer: They had no children at that point, yes. Make more money selling out really.
Helen:
I should think so.
George:
Yes, well of course also the codes for manufacturing and production sanitation
became more stringent in later years, than they had when they were riding high. And so they, I
think and I think they had more money than they could spend and the glamour had worn off.
Now on this money there, my father used to tell me that he would talk to Voigt senior, as a
father, Ralph, Carl, and the rest of them and he said Carl senior was very penurious and he had
Dad said, “Carl what are you going to do when your sons inherit all your money?” And he says,
“They‟ll spend it?” He said, “Ed, I really don‟t care.” He said, “I had my fun saving it if they
have their fun spending it, that‟s up to them.”
Interviewer: What a neat philosophy.
George: I remember he telling this to my father.
Interviewer: Well, you know when you go through the house now, you realize that they were
very saving people.
George: Oh, yes.
Interviewer: „Because they kept the things that are there in the house are just beautifully kept.
You know the dresses, they‟ve got so many dresses upstairs, that are you see the pictures of old
Mr. and Mrs. Voigt and the dress will be upstairs; really in beautiful condition. Was the
ballroom, there was a ballroom upstairs wasn‟t there?
George:
Yes, on the top floor.
Interviewer: Now then, I noticed that you had the lovely invitation. Did they used to have formal
parties like that at the Voigt House?
George:
That was my….
Interviewer:
Helen:
No, I meant there were parties like that at the Voigt House?
I think so because…
George:
My mother uses to speak that way. She used to go there quite often.
Helen:
I think so, because your aunt used to talk about those little gold chairs.
George:
Yes. The musical chair there that…
�16
Helen:
That, then she had that one musical chair. I didn‟t know much about that, but she used
to tell your sisters about it. A chair they bought I believe in Switzerland. One you sat on it, it
played a tune. In those days it was just something, a music box under the chair. But I never saw
that. But she did make a lovely present to me of two pictures. One day she called me over for and
I had tea with her and when I left…
Interviewer: This was Aunt Clara?
Helen:
Aunt Clara. She said I want you to have something. And she gave me lovely, I think
they were pastels of Grandmother and Grandfather Hake that had been made, and she told me
(in) France.
George: Could well have been. They…
Helen:
George:
Helen:
George:
Beautifully framed, I still have them.
She really adored the doctor. She always called him Doc.
My Doctor.
My Doctor, yes.
Interviewer: All the reports we have was that they were very, very congenial couple.
George:
Yes, they were.
Interviewer: And well, I guess she may have been dramatic but people liked her, didn‟t they?
Helen:
She, well, she was a very open… you knew where she stood.
Interviewer: The daughter of the builder of the Voigt house said that he also built their house,
which is on Madison? Was on Madison, or where was their house?
Helen:
George:
Washington.
Well, they….
Interviewer: Doctor and Mrs. Hake
George:
I think she had, I think they had a guarantee five, maybe even seven houses.
Interviewer: Well, this one must have been within about a decade of when he built the Voigt
house. This Mr. Jungbaecker built a house for her and she wanted her money‟s worth. She‟d
come back to him and back to him with her plans and say now, are you ready to give me a good
price? On her plans, you know. So I guess none of them were fools about money.
George:
No, they weren‟t. Well, they actually, the doctor died, and I know because I was
there just a day or so before he died, he died and they lived on Washington Street.
�17
Interviewer: On Washington Street?
George:
Helen:
Just about a block west.
Just around the corner.
George:
It‟s I think, it„s the second house from the corner, had a circular porch. Its glory days
were when they lived there, as was true of that whole area.
Helen:
It‟s almost next to the old Percy (?) home wasn‟t it?
George:
Somewhere in through there.
Helen:
(?) On the Corner. I think next to (?)
Interviewer: Where they, so they all lived close together.
George:
Very close. Of course, they all had it seems to me that I was told maybe she said that
to us when they because some of them never married but oh, Voigt senior, provided in his will
that if they lived in the within the house their expenses would be paid by the estate.
Interviewer: Oh, they did. I‟ve got to turn this [tape] over. I don‟t want it to run out.
[END OF SIDE ONE
TAPE #52]
Interviewer: Before he went out of business with Mr. Herpolsheimer, Mr. Voigt bought a lot of
midi skirts and midi blouses; you know a whole lot of them. And she said she always wore those
skirts and midi blouses in the morning, you know, when she was around the home, running the
house. And then would dress up in the afternoon. And she said to the maids one day she said
there were some of these midi blouses upstairs that had never been worn, she said I‟ll have to
wear one every day till I die because they‟d never wear out. And I thought, oh dear I‟m sure they
had enough money she could have just given them to the Salvation Army. But people didn‟t
function quite that way, in the old days, I guess.
Helen:
Remember, I knew one cute kind of a cute little incident, about Aunt Clara. We were
having dinner one evening, one at the Schnitzlebank, and [she] was there with her brothers. She
had been quite sick and it about was her first time out. And so, when I saw her I, we both went
over to speak to her. And I said to her, “Well how are you Aunt Clara?” She said, “Well of
course, I guess I‟m alright.” She said, “I‟ll tell you Helen, I‟m going to have kraut tonight if it
kills me.”
Interviewer: Well. I‟m surprised at the people that at the memories of the people who had
worked for them are very, very pleasant memories. They have very, they apparently were very
friendly down-to-earth people in that and they are remembered by their help as being not, you
couldn‟t just do anything I mean they demanded good work, but if you worked well you got
along very, very well. And the gal I talked to last week who was a secretary who worked for
�18
Frank and Carl and Ralph, said she was permitted to say anything you know She said when they,
she booked orders, she apparently booked the orders that would come in from Australia and all
those other places, you know. And she said, “Well I used to tell them you ought to get out on the
road and talk to more people and sell more things here in the United States, we wouldn‟t have to
ship it so far.” But he never took my advice, she said. And I thought it was interesting, not
because of that but because apparently it was a very free office, you know that it wasn‟t run on a
very formal basis. And she said that they were on a very first name basis. Not that she called
them Mr. Hake, or Mr. Voigt, but they called her by her first name.
George:
I think, I don‟t think anything would have pleased Ralph more than if they had taken
the old mills and preserved them. And of course, Ralph almost thought it would make a great, he
told me once, he thought it‟d be great for like an atmosphere restaurant. And of course, that
never came to be. And also there was a time, about ten years ago, when there was an effort to
establish hotel there on that land. And Ralph was laughing he said, “George you know they think
that‟s great news.” He said, “Fred Pantlind, Fred Z. Pantlind talked about that to me thirty years
ago.” He said, “So there‟s nothing very new.” But if every, if people would have always
prefaced their requests by saying, “Ralph we‟d like your house or we‟d like your mill and we
want to call it the Voigt Grand Rapids Mill or the Voigt and Jones Mill.” If you identify the
Voigts and Ralph, I think, loved that identification and he deserved it, really the family did. I
think very honestly that if an effort had been made during Ralph‟s life time not when, not the last
few years, when he was ill, but if they would‟ve said Ralph we‟d like to have your family
residence we‟d like to have it recognized what can you do to see that it goes to the city for
historic purposes? I think Ralph would‟ve done everything possible to see that realized. I am on
the museum commission.
Interviewer: Now, that is eventually who is going to control it?
George: Well, actually it‟s on formally and I suppose legally it‟s under the control of the City
of Grand, under the ownership of the City of Grand Rapids. But it‟s really under the jurisdiction
of the museum. Then that in turn is subrogated, believe to the Historical Preservation
Commission.
Interviewer: Well, those gals were really...
George:
Helen:
George:
Helen:
Oh, they deserve the glory.
Just dedicated their lives, to that house.
They‟ve done a great job.
I think they really deserve a lot of credit.
Interviewer: Oh, yes. And you know they‟ve that‟s a labor of love when they go down there.
George:
Well, I was on the finance committee.
�19
Helen:
I‟ve had luncheons there and they‟re fantastic.
Interviewer: Yes, they do a beautiful job. Really do.
George:
I was on the finance committee with Frank Frankfurter, David and John Hunting and
myself, to have that house transferred legally to the status it now enjoys. And the Grand Rapids
Foundation of course contributed substantially. I think Dave Hunting senior did an awful lot to
realize the ownership change.
Interviewer: I know him just a little, he‟s a dear person.
George:
He is. He‟s tremendously alert. John, young John, you know is his son. He‟s
building right over here.
Interviewer:
Helen:
George:
Helen:
George:
Is that where Marilyn, the new house is going to be right over here.
That‟s where, yes.
With the doctor though.
It will be lovely. Looks just great.
He‟s a very vital person for his age.
Interviewer: I should say so.
George:
You know, I don‟t know if you‟d heard the incident or the story of the time that the
Doctor and his wife were crossing Lake Michigan to attend the wedding of one of my uncles that
is Theodore Hake.
Interviewer: No, no I haven‟t heard it.
George:
Over in Milwaukee. Well, actually my grandfather already was in Milwaukee for
two weddings. They were a week apart and the family and friends they were all invited of
course. So actually my mother was going, but my brother came down with measles or something
like that and so at the last minute she deferred going. But many of the Hakes went and also the
Doctor and his wife Clara. And they were on a ship called the Naomi, which caught fire in midlake. And it was quite a disaster. It‟s been written up in many of the journals, in fact I understand
that there is a free-lance writer in Grand Rapids now who has been working on the story of that.
But as the story was told to me by my uncle, the fire was pretty much discovered, at least they
learned about it early in the evening, when they because they were all as usual playing cards in
the salon. And as they were dealing the cards…
Helen:
Excuse me, it wasn‟t early in the evening, it was late at night
George:
Late at night, yes. Well it all depends on how the Hakes would interpret “early in the
evening” and “late at night,” course they never knew tomorrow, half the time.
�20
Interviewer: They were not early, not early to bed people.
Helen:
They were all playing cards.
George:
They were all playing cards and somebody said, “I smell smoke.” And with that they
pretty soon obviously the ship was a total disaster. And the Doctor Hake was I believe the only
doctor on board and he administered to many of the people, some of whom died. And there are
pictures of that ship and...
Interviewer: Were they able to get to port without sinking.
George:
Yes, they took the lifeboats out. Oh, yes, Very much so. And they show, we have
pictures somewhere where they towed the charred hull into Grand [Haven]….There‟s really
nothing left of the upper structure. And my, I know the doctor‟s wife she was a little bit
hysterical so the story goes and so she left her stateroom and was waiting to be rescued and she
was in her corset and carrying an umbrella.
Helen:
You know when they wore corset covers?
Interviewer: Oh, yes. With a corset cover and an umbrella. Was prepared for all emergencies
wasn‟t she? Boy, that‟s a fantastic story; I‟ll bet that went the rounds. Wow. Oh, dear.
George:
Well that there were just pages of publicity on it.
Interviewer: Was this like about the time of the World Wars or earlier than that?
George:
Oh no, no this was way back.
Interviewer: Before the First World War?
George:
Interviewer:
George:
It‟d be it‟d be I would say about nineteen seven or eight
seven or eight?
Oh, yes about seventy years ago
Interviewer: Oh yes, that‟s a long time.
George:
There‟s another friend there that I believe figured in the Voigt family background as
a friend. That‟s the old Kusterer family. Of course there were a lot of these old German families
you know, and they all clung together. Some of these families I have well a familiarity with
because my grandfather Hake among other things was agent for the Hamburg-American Line.
And at the time he was the oldest agent and there are in this group both in years and in years of
service. And a suspicion is always been suggested that he did that because he liked to go to
Europe and whenever he went he would divide his children into two groups. He‟d take first the
one six and then the other six.
�21
Interviewer: Oh, isn‟t that wonderful.
George: And I presume he figured it was more economical that way anyhow. But in the process
he was instrumental in arranging the passage of most of these old German families in Grand
Rapids. And their home was really quite a congregating place for these Germans. You know
originally you speak of the west side, right across from where we used to live which is all long
gone but the expressway, right directly across the street, one of the Voigts lived. And the other
one lived right around the corner on Court Street.
Interviewer: Yes, that‟s what I understood from the very old lady that I talked to. She could
remember going to, she could remember going to Union School with Carl Voigt. And then she
remembered Ralph and she remembered when Ralph went away to school. He went to Andover,
I think and then to Yale. And she could remember that he went away to school but she had gone
to Union School with Carl.
George:
Well, years ago they had many wagons you know, dray wagons and they had
beautiful horses. And just on what was then known as Shawmut Avenue, now Lake Michigan
Drive, they had a pasture that was not very large but they‟d it was all fenced in. And the horses
were finished many of the horse were stabled there. The others were stabled down across from
our old building. And I used to go up there and watch these draft horses. They‟d run toward the
fence and you‟d think they were going right through. But they were friendly, gentle souls. They
had excellent care.
Interviewer: Beautiful horses?
George:
Oh, yes. They were.
Interviewer: They probably took just as good care of the horses as they did everything else.
George:
Yes, that‟s right
Interviewer: I can never get over the woodwork in that house because it„s so beautifully kept.
You know the house really (is) in remarkably great condition. I think that‟s the...
Helen:
George:
Didn‟t they say about the carriage house too, George?
Yes,
Helen:
Harnesses and everything.
George:
They had harnesses in there and they just…
Helen:
Everything was so lovely.
George: Yes, they‟re just waiting for somebody for some horse to appear and the harness
would be all ready for them. And they had I believe an old, I didn‟t see this but I was told by a
�22
fellow at the time who worked for Cadillac and he used to collect old cars, and he said they had a
beautiful electric I think, wasn‟t it electric?
Helen:
That‟s what they said.
Interviewer: They had an electric car? They were handsome things.
George:
Yeah and that was I think sold to somebody up north.
Interviewer: Were they great travelers? Were the Doctor and Mrs. Hake great travelers?
George:
Oh yes, they‟d gone to Europe, oh half a dozen times.
Interviewer: It seemed to me if you look around the bedroom upstairs that there are obviously
things that came from…
Helen:
She told me that she had seen, I think three different Popes. And that she always
asked the Pope to bless his hands, because he was a doctor.
Interviewer: Oh, isn‟t that lovely?
Helen:
She told me that.
George:
Well, he had, the doctor incidentally occupied a home which had been my
grandfather‟s home, his father‟s home, on the site that is now occupied by Grand Rapids Press.
And this home was originally built by Martin Sweet who in turn after he sold this house to my
grandfather, bought the house or built the house rather which is now the Women‟s City Club.
Interviewer: Oh, yes. Was this the Sweet that had Sweet‟s hotel?
George:
Yes. And Martin Sweet and my grandfather - that whole clique they were…
Helen:
They had the sweetest little house going up the hill there. Just darling.
Interviewer: It makes me sick to think of how pretty this city must have been at one time.
George:
Yes, it really was.
Interviewer: Really was beautiful.
George:
So many of the better things have been unfortunately torn down.
Interviewer: Well, the, you know…
Helen:
The City Hall…
Interviewer: Oh well, it‟s really brutal to think that such a beautiful building could have gone.
Helen:
George was on television one night trying to save it.
�23
Interviewer:
Hall?
George:
Oh yes, and who was it, Posey Benton who was it chained herself to the City
Oh, Mary Stiles.
Interviewer: Mary Stiles, yes. I heard about that when I first moved here.
Helen:
We were in Europe and at the Nordic Hotel was it, Oslo? No, it was Vienna, one of
those. Well, anyway we walked in, we walked out of our room in the morning walked downstairs
to the desk and a man held up the paper and he says, “Isn‟t this your home town?” And there she
was, on the ball, you know.
Interviewer: Do you remember the family well enough to know if they were interested in
music or if they were interested in, if you read old Grand Rapids history there was always such
an active interest in music in this community-the St. Cecilia Society, the Ladies Literary Club
and well, the Women‟s City Club. Were any of the family, the Voigt family that you know of,
interested in music or in any other…?
George:
I really don‟t know. I don‟t know. The only, I would venture though that the Voigts
might have some interest in music through my Aunt Augusta Rasch-Hake, who was quite a
pianist. And she studied in Vienna under Lesterchensky who was probably the foremost teacher
of piano in the last two hundred years. And she used to play for example in concert with Percy
Granger.
Interviewer: Oh my, she was really good. She died only about two years ago. She was in her
nineties. But she had a tremendous talent for music. And that‟s why she, her father sent her to
Vienna for further study. But probably because of family association the Voigts and I‟m only
surmising this because I would venture that they had themselves a pretty good interest in music.
Interviewer: There was the room off the drawing room, now they call the Music Room but I
don‟t know if it was called the Music Room then. But they have several you know they have
several instruments around.
Helen:
How about the music? Did you find any old music?
Interviewer: I think there is some there, but I‟ve never really gone through it. It‟s, I‟ve really
been more interested in digging into the library to what books they had. Thought it was
interesting to find out what books people kept around in those days.
George:
Have you ever talked to any of the other members of the Voigt family? The
surviving…
Interviewer: No. As a matter of fact, I was going to talk to Charles Dubee and then he‟s been in
the hospital and I guess he‟s out in recovery right now but, he‟s he had a heart attack.
�24
Helen:
Oh, did he?
Interviewer: Yes, and the word down at our church, is he‟s a member of our church, and word
down around our church was that it was a pretty severe heart attack. So and I don‟t….
Helen:
He was awfully heavy.
Interviewer: Well, I‟ve only been doing this for about the last month or so and really he‟s had
his heart attack and I really didn‟t think that it was even tactful, to go and talk. But he‟s one
person that I know that I plan to talk to. The Pantlinds lived across the street from the Voigts.
George:
Yes, I believe that way back…
Interviewer: And isn‟t that Mrs. Whinery? Isn‟t Kate Whinery a Pantlind?
Helen:
That would be Kay Whinery or Dosey.
George:
Then there‟s Hilda.
Interviewer: I talked to Mrs. Hanchett over the phone but she said she didn‟t, she‟d been away
from town so much that there was nothing she could add, to the story.
George:
You know Hilda Pantlind?
Interviewer: No, I don‟t.
George:
Well, she‟s married to Charlie Armstrong. They live in Arizona I believe most of the
time now, don‟t they?
Helen:
She comes in the summer but her sister‟s here. Cause I saw her at the beauty shop.
Interviewer: Now who‟s her sister?
Helen:
George:
Helen:
Dosey Pantlind and isn‟t that Dosey?
I don‟t know I only knew Hilda.
Who were we talking about Hilda and her sister, Mrs. Whinery I‟m sorry.
Interviewer: Kate Whinery
Helen:
George:
Yes, I‟m thinking of Fred Pantlind‟s, no. I‟m thinking of Boyd Pantlind‟s wife
I talked with Boyd today.
Interviewer: Well. I just, I guess one day I was at Susan Lowe Guild and Kate Whinery belongs
to Susan Lowe Guild and she mentioned that she lived across. I‟d come from the Voigt House,
�25
that day, and she said that they lived across the street. But she‟d never been in the house very
much. Were you ever in the house very much?
George:
Oh, yes.
Helen:
You were in.
George:
Not often but …
Interviewer: Just the normal course of events.
George: Yes, I tell you who might be able to give you some information too, is Bruce Gilmore.
You see Bruce Gilmore occupied the Idema house which he I believe owned. That‟s where the
Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance is.
Interviewer: Oh, that‟s right next door, isn‟t it?
George:
Yes, yes. Now what association Bruce would have had with say Ralph or Carl, I
don‟t know except they were neighbors. Now Gene Gilmore works, Bruce is pretty much retired.
He‟s, his brother was with him in the Bahamas here a few ago. And Bruce, I think will be back
as soon as the weather warms up a bit. And he might be able to give you some information too.
Interviewer: You‟re still active in business, aren‟t you?
George:
Oh, yes very much so.
Interviewer: Yes, so you can‟t get away in the winter like everybody else.
George:
Helen:
Oh, I can get away any time I want to.
He‟s president.
Interviewer: Well that doesn‟t mean you can take off as easily. It‟s usually if you‟re the
president you have to stay and…
George:
No, I can say that because our three sons are in the business and also my nephew
and they do a tremendous job.
Interviewer: Oh, so you‟re a little freer then.
George:
Oh, yes.
Interviewer: You don‟t (feel) you‟re chained. Well, I know that Mrs. Jackoboice, you‟ve done a
lot of traveling.
Helen:
We do, but we‟re not very Florida fans or anything like that. We just returned from
Mexico, we were down there for about three weeks. But…
�26
Interviewer: That‟s nice.
Helen:
Yes.
George:
We were supposed to have gone last September. We went on a southern trip through
Europe including Eastern Europe, Soviet Union, Hungary and so on. And, but my wife here had
a little scare which fortunately…
Interviewer: A heart thing?
Helen: No, I just had a sudden flare and it was really something. I‟m a very, very well person
and I just felt funny pain and I just thought well I‟ll go and have it checked you know. And, my
word, they put me right in the hospital, had x-rays and what have you. And they thought I had
something just terrible. And so I….
Interviewer: Oh, that‟s awful.
Helen:
Yes, it turned out to be nothing.
Interviewer: Oh, that‟s good.
George:
Meanwhile …
Interviewer: But meanwhile you cancelled your trip.
Helen:
By the time, yes, he said no way could you go on that trip, because it was something
with the digestive system.
Interviewer: Well, my sister-in-law has been into Russia twice and she said the only thing about
Russia, is you don‟t want to be sick in Russia.
Helen:
That‟s where…
Interviewer: Be healthy if you get around it. She loved it though. She said it‟s worth going just
to through the Hermitage.
Helen:
My husband has been there several times.
Interviewer: Have you?
George:
Helen:
Oh, yes. Been all through Eastern Europe.
I don‟t want to get sick in India either.
Interviewer: I think there are a lot of places you prefer not to….
Helen:
There‟s a lot of places I don‟t want to be there sick.
�27
Interviewer: But on the other hand you can‟t stop going just on that chance.
Helen:
Course not.
Interviewer: Right, right.
George:
There‟s I guess they were gradually are restoring or recollecting or collecting some
of the furnishings and so on, of the Voigt place. „Course the attic; it was just loaded with…
Helen:
Yeah, they‟re gradually doing, well, I think what they‟ve tried to do is reconstruct
what it probably looked, might have looked like early on. Not in its later days.
George:
I wouldn‟t think that there‟s too many basic changes, do you, from the old days?
Helen:
No, I remember when whenever I‟d go there though she‟d invite me over for tea, we
always went directly to her room.
Interviewer: You did?
Helen:
Clara never sat downstairs.
Interviewer: Did you ever know Miss Emma Hake, err Voigt?
Helen:
Yes, I just knew her. And she‟d probably be there, but you knew, you could hear her
moving around something. But if Aunt Clara had a guest she went to her room. And we sat there
and it was a very pleasant room upstairs, you know which one she had?
Interviewer: Yes.
Helen:
And she‟d always say, oh come up here and then she‟d always point out “my Doctor”.
She had his picture all over the room and we had tea and we‟d visit.
Interviewer: One of the fascinating things that you know about being down there is that the
desk, the letters in the, stuffed in the cubbyhole of her desk are her letters. They‟re the letters and
they‟re you know, it‟s as if she‟d left the room because you know the letters that are there she
left a letter to Bishop Whittemore and a letter to a Catholic Bishop about something that she was
corresponding with him about. You knew it‟s just as if she walked out of the room and were
coming back. Except that the date had stopped you know, several years ago. So that‟s really it
comes as close that houses come to living history, as almost any place you walk into.
George:
That‟s right.
George:
I don‟t think you‟d ever find a house...
Interviewer: No, because everything you have the feeling the family just stepped out. And it‟s
like the turn of the century. And there they are you know, just stop action. And they‟re very few
�28
things they‟ve got Ralph‟s picture that LeClaire did in the downstairs hall. But most of the rest of
the stuff you can go through the house and it looks very old.
Helen: Wouldn‟t that make a fantastic movie?
Interviewer: No, it‟s really a remarkable thing. The other thing I don‟t pick up about the Voigts
is that they were very, very involved, now the time when your grandfather arrived here, well,
back in the eighteen fifties if you look down the roster of the people who were mayors and
officers in town they were always the prominent businessmen in town. And the politics didn‟t get
separated from the business until, say after, oh well after you all, I think after that you got into a
different kind of person being in politics. From, but early on it was liable to be prominent
businessmen in town who were married and so forth. But the Voigt‟s name doesn‟t come up ever
being involved in politics at all.
George:
No, not that I can recall. My grandfather was city treasurer for a period of years.
And he always, he was credited generally with having established the bookkeeping system which
until recent years was still the nucleus of the city systems.
Interviewer: That‟s interesting.
George:
But that was Hake, you see, William Hake. And, but he was, he was quite active in
city affairs and his brother John even more so.
Interviewer: But you never pick up the name Voigt?
George:
No, not…..
Interviewer: No, I‟ve seen the name Hake but I‟ve never seen the name Voigt.
George:
The Voigts were very keen business people. They tell a story and then there‟s
(nothing) irregular about it, it‟s just typical I think of their time, and their generation. That they
would buy wheat and of course, in those years there never was any governmental control on or
anything on it. Well…
Interviewer: They were real gamblers?
George:
Yes, well if you buy wheat on say futures, why if it went down, well, boys the mill
bought that. If it went up, that was the Voigts.
Interviewer: That was the Voigts. They still say you know that they say the commodities market
is a great place for the real gamblers of the world. Rest of us…
George:
I think you know, you speak of the house I think, they guarded that house very well.
I mean, I don‟t think the house was ever at any time abused by anybody in the family. It was
always sentimentally regarded and well maintained.
�29
Interviewer: Yes. Oh my goodness, yes. You just have to look behind doors you know and the
polish the obvious gleam on all the woodwork had to come from loving rubbing you know. And
diligent rubbing on some and apparently I think the woman who was their housekeeper is still
alive.
George:
Yes, I think she is.
Interviewer: And there‟s another person I have on my list to go talk to because it hasn‟t been
loaded down with gunk. No or anything. It‟s just really cleaned and polished and such beautiful I
don‟t think any of us these days think much about oak you know as being this great wood. But in
that lower bedroom where Ralph was at the end of his life well that looks to me to be cherry
wood. In there, its beautiful close grained woodwork and probably as pretty as wood as there is
in the house. It‟s really nice. You know your room reminds me of the houses down around
Charleston.
Helen:
Oh, really.
Interviewer: This isn‟t Cyprus, is it?
George:
This is walnut, solid walnut.
Interviewer:
Helen:
It‟s just beautiful wood.
Thank you, thank you.
Interviewer: Just lovely.
Helen:
We think so, we just love it. George is very “booky” and he always wanted a lovely
library. So, we built it.
Interviewer: Oh, it‟s really nice. But I love the color of the wood.
George: This, this walnut is about that thick all the way through. I shudder, if you could even
get, even get it now. Remember Warren Rindge?
Interviewer: No, I don‟t.
George:
Well, Warren was one of the last traditional you see he was educated in Europe and
Warren wouldn‟t touch anything modern. But things like this he loved. And he always said this
was the finest library he had ever built.
Interviewer: Oh well proportioned to the room is beautifully proportioned.
Helen:
We think so too.
Interviewer: And the paneling is so lovely.
�30
Helen:
Now that‟ll be…..
Interviewer: Oh, the little dentalling around the edges that goes up to the top.
George:
rooms.
They were about, they were full time they were about eight months on these two
Interviewer: I didn‟t know that there was a company that made all that finished mill work that
went into the Voigt house. And that this Mrs., this Mrs. McLachlan that I talked to was the
daughter of Jungbaecker (and) that it was her father was the head of this company. I still can‟t,
the name has slipped my mind, they did finish mill work and they turned out those handsome
you know the stair runs that are so pretty down there. I thought, I wondered about that and…..
Helen:
You know so much about architecture you must have…
Interviewer: Not really, very much at all. But I was interested in that because she was telling me
she worked as a bookkeeper in this place and she said that at the time they had built this house
that the foreman of the room upstairs made eighteen dollars a week and they stepped down to
nine dollars a week for the man that ran the elevator. This was for a sixty hour work week. And
they worked ten and a half hours every day except Saturday. Ten hours and ten minutes every
day and then on Saturday they could go home at five o‟clock, instead of six.
George:
Helen:
That‟s what my father said their work schedule was two years ago.
Really?
Interviewer: Is that fantastic!
George:
Well, all the [way] up until the war years we always worked Saturdays.
Interviewer: Oh sure, I remember that.
George:
My father always said that they‟d start at six and they‟d quit at six except Saturday
they‟d quit at five.
Interviewer: Isn‟t that fantastic?
George:
Helen:
George:
Helen:
And the only day they had off was Sunday.
They didn‟t complain, they didn‟t have strikes and things, did they?
No.
They do now.
Interviewer: Gosh, it‟s hard to think about that. And I said, “Well didn‟t you mind the long
hours?” And she said, “No, everybody worked. Even the bosses.”
�31
Helen:
That‟s the truth.
Interviewer: You know if everyone‟s working it‟s all the same thing. I‟ve got to switch
cartridges while we still want before we get interrupted, if you don‟t mind.
[END OF TYPEWRITTEN TRANSCRIPT. But the interviewer and the Jackoboices continue
talking as they view pictures and mementos. In the file, there is now a paper copy of all of the
following transcript which matches the CD recordings.]
George:
This is a picture of the Voigt house here.
Interviewer: This is the Detroit Free Press, oh, yes.
George:
Yes,
Helen:
Have you ever been there when they model some of the dresses? Have you seen
Barbara in that one? I understand she is absolutely gorgeous.
Interviewer: Yes, she is. You must have a very slim figure to fit into the dresses.
Helen: Barbara said someone called me one day and they said that she should have her
portrait done in that dress; someone that knew her very well.
Interviewer: Yes, she really should.
Helen:
Someone told David you should go down with a camera and take her picture in the
dress. Have you seen it? I would love to see it...
Interviewer: Yes, and it is just wonderful.
George: This is…
Interviewer: Oh yes, now, I didn‟t know she was a business woman here.
George:
Oh, I think that....
Interviewer: Oh, it was, that‟s just because she was just in the family business.
George:
Not to my memory, was she ever active in the business.
Interviewer: According to the gal in the office, it was the three brothers that came down to the
office, the girls never came down. Neither your Aunt Clara nor Miss Emma ever came down.
George:
I never saw them there. I don‟t remember ever seeing them.
Interviewer: Hmmm.
�32
George:
This is just a partial and I am looking for more, there has got to be another page of
the Naomi…
Interviewer: You don‟t have a date on this? Yes, yes you do, May twenty-second nineteen
seven. That‟s right, you were correct about that.
Helen:
Is that the white book?
George:
Yes,
Interviewer: Many thrilling accounts of the catastrophe are told.
George:
There might be some other pages in there too.
Interviewer: They were going to attend the wedding of Louis F. Hake.
George:
Yes.
Interviewer: And Miss Mary Buerger of Milwaukee. Yes. I would like to read that before I go. I
don‟t want to read…
George:
I think I have a more complete. This is an item on my uncle, the Doctor.
Interviewer: Did his elementary studies at the parochial school and public schools. His parents
sent him to Notre Dame University where he spent three (days) years. After leaving this
institution, decided his choice on the advice of his friends to take up the biological course. He
entered the famous Ann Arbor University where he graduated in eighteen eighty-two. Received
the degree of MD, youngest member among five hundred students. Obtained a situation in the
pharmacy department of the wholesale retail drug concern of Thum Brothers.
George:
Here is another thing…
Interviewer: A man used to live downstairs from us when first moved here, we had an apartment
his family were the Hazeltine Perkins, you know Carl Montgelas.
George:
I know Carl…
Interviewer: Yes, that‟s interesting. Cecelia Hake, isn‟t that a pretty one, this a beautiful, did you
compile this book?
George:
That was my mother did that, most of it‟s in her handwriting.
Interviewer: That‟s beautiful.
George:
So, it‟s…
�33
Interviewer: Here is Doctor. Hake‟s death, practicing physician, specialist in children‟s diseases
in Grand Rapids since eighteen eighty-two died Saturday morning at three fifty-seven
Washington Street SE.
Helen:
That‟s what I thought.
Interviewer: That‟s a good thing to know. He was only fifty-seven when he died.
Helen:
George:
Oh, was he?
Yes.
Interviewer: Yes, had traveled and had the distinction of having met three popes, that‟s what
you told me.
Helen:
That‟s what I had said.
Interviewer: The last, the Thirteenth Pope Benedict, he was a graduate of both University of
Michigan and Notre Dame and studied abroad. He was eleven years, a major in the state troops
and for thirty years attendant physician at St. John‟s Orphan Asylum. This was work he did
voluntarily and was married to Miss Clara Voigt on September twelfth, eighteen eighty-nine.
Surviving are his widow, his father who is ninety-one years old and resides at two forty-six
Ransom. Three sisters and Mrs. Helen Jackoboice. That would be your mother.
George:
Yes, my mother.
Interviewer: And eight brothers, wow. Protestant, Jew and Catholic alike attended the funeral
services for Doctor. Hake Tuesday last week at the Cathedral. Some praying for the repose of the
soul of the departed, others testifying at least by their presence that the late doctor, by the best of
his ability struggled and accomplished much for the betterment of his fellow citizens, and the
greater glory of the common good.
George:
He predeceased his father.
Interviewer: Yes, now this UBA Home and Hospital United Benevolent was the fore runner,
that‟s Blodgett, isn‟t it?
George:
You know, I could be wrong, I associated that with Butterworth.
Interviewer: I think, Butterworth is St. Mark‟s. It was St. Mark‟s before it was Butterworth.
George: Could be.
Interviewer: Yeah, this I think you‟ll find is the forerunner, and here is a picture of the Voigt
Mill and a picture of it.
George:
I imagine there is a lot of those.
�34
Interviewer: Mary Hake and Arthur Gore. And here, there is a dinner menu on here, too. Did
you ever look at those meals we could never eat them now a days?
Helen:
Isn‟t that ….
Interviewer: Fantastic. Home of Mary Hake Gore
George:
That was...
Interviewer:
George:
Oh, your mother did a beautiful job, didn‟t she?
That Gore was a sad story, there is enough things in that Hake tribe to ….
Interviewer: Well, I think in a big family like that there were some, some tragedies as well as
some…
George:
And yes there really were.
Interviewer: You can‟t ever have a big family like that without some sadness as well as ….She
has each of her children here and she has, isn‟t this neat.
Helen:
I just love to, you know how you go looking for something and looking in a drawer
and you spend the whole afternoon reading? You know?
Interviewer: Oh, yes.
Helen:
Just looking at pictures.
Interviewer: Here it says one eighty-four Ransom, a breakfast immediately afterwards, oh a
wedding breakfast.
George: Here is one on the McGraws; it is years and years ago in the paper….
Interviewer: “Judy Jots it Down” must have been going on a long time. There must have been a
lot of Judy's. Mr. Francis B McGraw of the firm of Duran & McGraw and Amelia L. daughter of
ex-alderman William Hake in St. Andrews Church Thursday, full dress affair was conducted on
a magnificent scale. Finest velvet covers being laid from the carriages into the church. The bride
was superbly dressed in white satin with wreath and veil. The groom wore the conventional full
dress suit of black with a diamond crescent on a white neck scarf, my goodness, how times have
changed. Because this story appeared in the eighteen seventy-six in the old Grand Rapids Daily
Eagle, One of solid gold nuggets we ran across when looking over a scrapbook that was loaned
to us by Lewis F. Hake.
George:
This was another menu for another daughter.
Interviewer: The wedding of Mary Hake, and this was the one you said was such a sad story…
about Arthur Gore. Mock Turtle Soup, California Salmon, Red sealed Bordeaux, Sweetbread
�35
patties, Snipe on toast. First time I‟ve really known what snipe really was, they use to kid us
about snipe, Saddle of antelope larded with Sauce Picante, Roast Turkey, Spring chicken, French
peas, tipped asparagus, Spareribs, Roman punch, Chicken Salad, Potato Salad, Shrimp salad.
Helen: Watched their calories.
Interviewer: Raspberry ice cream, Strawberry, Charlotte Russe, then Champagne, Pyramids of
Macaroons kisses, French torte, Fresh fruit and French coffee. That‟s a magnificent meal, isn‟t
it?
George: I think that is the only picture existing. I have blown this up from a very small tintype.
This is the house where Doctor Hake practiced medicine in, after my grandfather who still
owned the property and moved into the big house. This is Hake right here in the picture. This one
is the same one you see up there.
Interviewer: Oh, yes, now that is your grandfather?
George:
Yes.
Interviewer: Isn‟t that nice.
George:
These were painted by Gregori, who painted all the murals at Notre Dame
University.
Interviewer: Of course, he did a fine job, now where is this house?
George: This is the house, long torn down; it stood on the present site of the Grand Rapids
Press.
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
George: In the back there was an orchard, there was also a well. And it always has been stated,
that the well there which predated the use of the water that was there by the Arctic Spring Water
Co, if you remember that name. And originally by Kusterer of the brewery who had the old
Furniture City Brewery. And Kusterer and my grandfather were very close personal friends.
Kusterer went down on the Alpena, if you remember that story. Well, after my grandfather‟s
family grew, he moved on the hill and kept this property until later it was sold after his death.
But Doctor Hake practiced medicine out back and the house was entirely different. The walls in
that,
Interviewer: It is made from limestone out of the river.
George:
That‟s right Charles Belknap lead a drive to keep the thing, he failed.
Interviewer: What a shame, what a treasure that would have been.
George:
Yes.
�36
Interviewer: Your grandfather lived here?
George:
That was his first house, actually when he first came to the city, he didn‟t live there
because he wasn‟t married he was just a kid he came from Germany. He had his first job with
John Clancy who had the first wholesale grocery in Grand Rapids and my grandfather learned
the Indian dialect and worked there. He got married at St. Michael‟s church in Chicago.
Interviewer: When your grandfather first came, they were still making payments to the Indian
every fall.
George:
Yes, he came about eighteen forty-seven – eighteen fifty or so.
Interviewer: They were still making payments to the Indians every October and November until
eighteen fifty-eight or so.
Helen:
This is built over the old spring.
George: That‟s the old brewery.
Interviewer: “The past crumbles easily”…Fox Deluxe Brewery on Michigan Street, now was
this torn down for the expressway? They lost the depots and everything. Now this is Christopher
Kusterer a German brewer who went into partnership with John Pannell, Grand Rapids. They
started a large brewery on Michigan Street. A large pure cool gushing spring.
George: That‟s the spring. My grandfather was in many different, lumbering, a lumber mill.
Interviewer: These old people turned their hands to a lot of things in the course of getting
established, didn‟t they?
George:
Here is an item when Doctor Hake came back from Europe one time.
Interviewer: Nineteen fourteen, oh, they were in the war zone in Europe. In view of the present
events in Europe the great Peace Palace at The Hague is a huge joke. On his arrival from a trip to
Europe, accompanied by Mrs. Hake we went direct to Hamburg, Germany from Amsterdam after
a visit to The Hague and only a day or two after we visited the famous monument to the peace of
the world. Leading powers of the countries were clutching at each other throats. They were there
when war was declared, weren‟t they, in August nineteen fourteen? You see that would be at the
time. Were clutching each others‟ throats, and practically all of Europe were seething in the heat
of the impending conflict. We were impressed with the beautiful urns of wonderful design,
emblematic of peace, the contributions of the Czar of Russia and the German Kaiser. The
beautiful tribute of Japan and we‟re told a prominent place had been reserved for a tribute from
the United States. Doctor Hake could not refrain from emphasizing the inconsistency of the
situation and emphatically remarked that the present the wonderful Peace Palace, erected by
Carnegie is a travesty on the sentiment of peace among nations. I believe the war now in
progress will set civilization back a half a century. Boy, how right he was.
�37
George:
Yes. There is a little story about when he returned I believe from this trip, there was
a little dinner party and many of the people of the city of some prominence were in attendance
and I believe the Voigts were there too and even though my Uncle obviously was German as
were the Voigts. The thing got a little controversial and they had quite a splash in the paper about
the sentiments expressed by Doctor Hake that apparently weren‟t considered .the thing to say
with war so imminent. And he was criticized for it, rather strongly, but he didn‟t retract, I don‟t
think. ..
Interviewer: Was there any feeling in your family, any reaction against German people
expressed? Or you had been here so long by that time…
George:
Oh, no we had no relatives over there.
Interviewer: One of the things that comes through as you look over the history of Grand Rapids
is that the German people have disappeared into the population. Whereas the Dutch have
retained this Dutchness.
Helen:
Yes, that‟s right.
Interviewer: But the German people have just joined the Yankees.
George:
I think it is rather fitting and I think a tribute to these people. Both my grandfathers
are memorialized in the Grand Rapids Museum.
Interviewer: In the public museum downtown?
George:
Yes. In the Ethnic groups.
Interviewer: That‟s something to be proud of.
George:
Yes, incidentally on this one picture here, this was not at the Voigt house anymore.
Interviewer: No, that is not there at all.
George:
That was originally an egg house.
Interviewer: That room doesn‟t look anything like that now, that room looks quite different, this
looks more like a drawing room but this one has been turned into a music room. Maybe not the
way it looked. A lot of the furniture went to various relatives.
George:
Yes, that„s my understanding, when you come in there is that model mannequin with
the bridal dress on. Well that‟s Doctor Hake‟s wife.
Interviewer:
George:
Is that her wedding dress, that‟s the one that Barbara modeled, isn‟t it?
Oh, is it? I don‟t know.
�38
Interviewer: I think that‟s the one, because it is a beautiful wedding dress.
George: Not to distract you from that, but here are some cablegrams, telegrams and so on at the
time of that Naomi disaster.
Interviewer: Oh, yes. Isn‟t that neat, all those barred by the sad misfortune on the lake stretch
hands across and join in hardy congratulations. Everybody safe and doing well; may this gloom
not cloud your joy; may the sunshine of the day be the sunshine of your life. Who is M. Richard?
Louis Hake & bride.
George:
He was, I don‟t know, some relative, but this Albert Hake is… This all ties in
because of the …
Interviewer: Naomi disaster. I‟d like to really take the time and really read through this, if you
wouldn‟t mind me coming back. I would love to come back and sit and read sometime.
George:
Oh, sure, glad to have you.
Interviewer: There is no use reading into the tape recorder.
George:
No, I know.
Interviewer: And I think your mother did a beautiful job in putting this all together.
George:
I have a lot of this stuff that is just…
Interviewer: Now, here you are, Mr. and Mrs. William Hake requesting the honor of your
presence of their daughter Helen Matilda to Edward J. Jackoboice, June twelfth, one thousand
nine-hundred and six, nine o‟clock. St. Mary‟s Church. Now where is St. Mary‟s Church?
George:
That‟s on the West side where Father Bingham is pastor now. That is, that is one of
the really sleeper churches of the dioceses. You see, that is the second oldest parish in the
dioceses of Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: That is before St. Andrews?
George:
No, St. Andrews is first.
Interviewer: And St. Mary‟s was second?
George:
Now, St Mary‟s Church was not the second Gothic church, it was the first church in
the Gothic style. St. Mary‟s is an older parish, but St James has an older existing structure, But
that St Mary‟s church was in a Gothic style. It is a gorgeous church inside.
Interviewer: I‟ll make a point to go over to St. Mary‟s. I‟ll make a point to go over and look.
Now, this is your grandfather? William Hake.
�39
George:
Yes.
Interviewer: Isn‟t that something?
George: Now that‟s McGraw.
Interviewer: Did your grandmother outlive your grandfather?
George:
No, she died when she was about seventy-eight. Yes.
Interviewer: Boy, he was how old when he died?
George:
ninety-three.
Interviewer: Wow, ninety-three. That‟s fantastic
George:
There were a lot of write-ups about him. He was a very, very colorful man and a
dominate personality. These are some of the things that happened at the Hake house. There‟s
picture over there of the Naomi over there.
Interviewer: Burns, Wednesday morning, Grand Rapids Michigan. One of the heroes of the
Naomi disaster - William Hanrahan. Thrilling tales. Grand Rapids people aboard were saved, but
lose their clothes and their valuables. Bet they lost some wedding presents too, didn‟t they?
George:
Yes.
Interviewer: Oh, my, that was a big thing, worse than the cyclone. They did lose some lives,
though?
George:
Oh, yes. Obviously mostly crewmen there, that burned to death
Interviewer: No, isn‟t that something. Now here it is, soloist….
George:
Now is that my sisters?
Interviewer: Ruth Jackoboice, is that your sister?
George:
Yes, I use to have twin sisters Helen and Ruth, and they played the French Harps.
Interviewer: I talked to one of your sisters; here it is Miss Gast - that is you!
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Yes.
I talked with her, and she‟s very much involved in the money raising thing...
She…
�40
Interviewer: … for the diocese, isn‟t she? She said she would just as soon I talk to you. She
would get back to me later. She apparently has put a lot of time and a lot of work….
George:
Yes, she has…
Interviewer: She was very kind.
George:
She is in Florida now; she will be back sometime this week.
Interviewer: Were the regarded in town as an eccentric family in town?
George:
No, let‟s see. I guess a qualified yes.
Interviewer: What made people in town feel like that about them? Clannishness mainly?
George: Obviously, they were very family oriented. They had strong convictions on thrift and
economy which really is no fault.
Interviewer: That‟s really a virtue, but they were pretty well known for ….
George:
I know they used to have a decorator years ago and he was highly regarded an as a
friend, very fine and very expensive decorator, but say he painted the outside, they had these big
beams. Well Mrs. Voigt, she just get a fish pole after he‟d left and would put white gauze on the
end a fish pole and she‟d reach up there to make sure he painted it all. If it was wet, it was all
right, otherwise he‟d missed and she‟d want to know about it.
Interviewer: I heard another tale like that. This old gal whose father built the Voigt house, did a
lot of work for her father before that. She used to take the bills around and present the bills, and
she‟d go to the mill office with the bills and she said he‟d always say, “Oh, John. How did John
get at this figure? This is too high, this is too high.” And her father said, “Now he‟ll say this to
you. He‟ll say John‟s just robbing me blind.” And he said, “Well you just stay there and you
don‟t say anything. And then he‟ll pay you.” And she said it was just like that. You‟d go in and
he‟d say “Oh John is jus robbing me. This should be, no this price is too high.” Then she waited
a while and wouldn‟t say anything and then he‟d pay her. And she said every time she went to
collect there was always this little act they went thru.
George:
You know, there was one controversy, not so many years ago I would say prior to
Ralph‟s death, when the mills were sold to the City of Grand Rapids and the city I think was
wise in acquiring the land, because we are now one of the few cities in the country, who own
both sides of the river in the downtown area with rare exceptions. I think that is a great thing they
are striving to do but the Voigts were highly criticized for that because according to the reports
they got anything from five hundred and eight thousand to five hundred and say fifty thousand
dollars for it. But what most people entirely forget is that the Voigts owned the riparian rights
and by riparian natural waterways laws and so on, the city never could have acquired that unless
the Voigts had surrendered those rights, which meant later they could make a parking lot and
�41
eventually a planned plaza on the west side. See these canals fed the water wheels for the Voigt
mills. And also, something and I am almost positive I am correct because I had it confirmed by
one of the leaders of at least one of the hospitals. George Welsh, and I always regarded George
Welsh, I disagree violently on many things. Did you know him at all?
Interviewer:
I never knew him, but I wish I had, he was quite a colorful character?
George: Yes, he was and naming the auditorium was a well deserved honor for him. But when
they say they paid five hundred and some-odd thousand dollars for these old mills. And the city
did. But they not only got the mills and the land on which they stood, they also got the land to
make a parking lot out of that land. But most importantly the Voigts have never been given credit
for it to my knowledge; they gave a hundred eighty thousand dollars to St. Mary‟s Hospital and a
hundred eighty thousand to Butterworth Hospital. And there is three hundred sixty thousand
dollars and everybody said they were getting top dollar but no one comes forth and says they
also gave it back.
George: I had a friend and maybe this is analogous, but his family, and they lived in Grand
Rapids, are just notorious and they were just plain stingy. And yet I seen this fellow would turn
right around and argue with the newspaper boy whether it should be two cents or three cents.
And on one occasion he turned right around and he gave me season tickets to a most coveted
football season. He said, Ah, here you take them.” I said I would pay he said, “No, I don‟t want
anything.” And I think the Voigts in some ways were like that.
Interviewer: They wanted the value for their money.
George:
Yes.
Interviewer: Of course one of the things we forget, and I think it is true here, is the genius of
Grand Rapids has been the businessmen. Extremely capable businessmen. And I was sort of
interested in meeting you because one thing about my study of Grand Rapids, it is a natural
course of events in America now. But one of the things I think made Grand Rapids strong was
home-owned business. You know, that the people that own the businesses live here.
George:
Yes,
Interviewer: And there were so many businesses, were home owned businesses right here that
were strong and diversified. And of course, that‟s passing on.
George:
You take with us now, we‟re. There are no outside owners it is all family.
Interviewer: But you are becoming more and more rare here in town.
George:
Yes, that‟s right. But as I say we have been in business continuously as a family in
the machinery business in Grand Rapid without interruption for a hundred and eighteen years.
�42
Interviewer: That‟s a record.
George:
Very frankly, we enjoy it tremendously; we have an awful lot of fun. We sell
throughout the United States and about twenty-five foreign countries.
You‟ve got a really good booming…
Interviewer:
George:
But we work at it, and we enjoy working at it.
Interviewer: And you have three sons in the business?
George:
Three sons in the business, all three sons are in the business.
Interviewer: I thought maybe when Mrs. Jackoboice said that one of them was writing about
Wordsworth; maybe you had a college professor in the family.
George:
I think it started out that way, I think he likes that as an avocation but I think he likes
business better. He might not agree with me, but he is down there all the time. Take my wife.
Her people have always been in business, both of my grand fathers were in business and my
father was. Business talk has always been dinner table conversation as a lot of these old family
names in town. You know the Herpolsheimers, Wurzburgs and the Voigts. You weren‟t overly
impressed because their names came up so often.
Interviewer: And they were your neighbors and you saw them every day.
George:
Just like, here we were flying to Europe a few years ago and actually the man was
Don Maxwell who was the editorial chairman of the Chicago Tribune and we were flying
together he and his wife and Helen and myself we were visiting, half-way across the ocean and
he rather facetiously at the end said well George you know you have been name dropping a little
bit. I said Mr. Maxwell I disagree, it just so happens that because these people made some mark
on the world and they are well known figures, doesn‟t mean your name dropping or I am.
Actually, I know these people, I know them very well and they are personal friends of mine. I
don‟t believe I am doing any more than giving them their modest merit.
INDEX
B
G
Bedford, Mr. · 4
D
Dubee, Charles · 24
Gast Family · 1, 4, 40
Gilmore Family · 25
Gore, Arthur · 34, 35
�43
H
P
Hake Family · 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 9, 13, 16, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23, 27,
28, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39
Hanchett, Mrs. · 24
Herpolsheimer Family · 9, 11, 43
Hunting Family · 19
Pantlind Family · 18, 24, 25
J
Jackoboice Family · 1, 2, 9, 10, 33, 39, 40, 42
Jungbaecker, John · 3, 16, 30
K
Kusterer Family · 20, 36
L
R
Rasch Family · 3, 9, 23
Rindge, Warren · 30
S
Schulz, Mildred · 3
St. Cecilia Music Society · 23
St. Mark‟s Episcopal Church · 8
St. Mary‟s Church · 13, 39, 41
Stiles, Mary · 23
Sweet, Martin · 22
U
Ladies Literary Club · 23
Leitelt Family · 12
University of Michigan · 6, 33
M
V
McGraw Family · 35, 39
McLachlan, Mrs. · 3, 30
Monarch Road Machinery Company · 9
Voigt Family · 2, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 18, 21, 23, 24, 28, 29,
37, 41, 42, 43
Voigt, Clara · 1, 4, 13, 33
O
W
Orth, Mary · 3
Whinery, Mrs. · 24, 25
Women‟s City Club · 22, 23
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97bc849e31349448be62db2c84842671.mp3
6414af789bf64b461989218c2cf11560
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories
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Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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RHC-23
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1971 - 1977
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RHC-23_52Jackaboice
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Jackoboice, George and Helen
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Jackoboice, George
Jackoboice, Helen
Description
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Helen Gast was born August 7, 1910 in Grand Rapids. She married George Jackoboice in 1937. They had three sons. Mrs. Jackoboice died on December 31, 2008.
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
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Michigan--History
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Grand Rapids (Mich.)
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Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Women
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eng
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1974
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dd694b27a46f5c26312c278ea5e7dea5.pdf
bc1380b77b47f9561489b13d78e87926
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mr. George Jackoboice
Interviewed November 5, 1974
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010-bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape # 43 (1:16:37)
Biographical Information
George Adolphe Jackoboice was born 17 June 1908, the son of Edward J. Jackoboice and Helen
Matilda Hake. George was married to Helen Gast, the daughter of Peter B. Gast and Emily Alt.
George passed away 10 January 1987 in Grand Rapids and is buried at Mt. Calvary Cemetery.
He was the chairman of Monarch Hydraulics, Inc. Besides three sons and their families, George
was survived by his wife, Helen, who died 31 December 2008, aged 98 years.
George‟s father, Edward Jackoboice was born in Grand Rapids on 16 June 1864, the son of
Joseph Jackoboice and Frances Rasch. Edward died 8 May 1935 in Grand Rapids. George‟s
mother, Helen Matilda Hake was born in Grand Rapids circa 1873 and died 23 May 1952 at St
Mary‟s Hospital in Grand Rapids. The parents were married on 12 June 1906 in Grand Rapids.
The Jackoboice family is buried in Mt. Calvary Cemetery on Grand Rapids‟ west side.
____________
Interviewer: Now, I think we‟re getting somewhere because the dial is, is really working here,
I just didn‟t have this thing, this is tricky, it doesn‟t plug in quite right…Back it up and play it
back. I‟ll play it back and then we‟ll see if I, if that‟s what it was. I think it is.
This is an interview with Mr. George Jackoboice in his residence at two thirty-one Park Hills
Drive. It‟s raining out. Mr. Jackoboice, is an old time resident, although by far the youngest we
interviewed so far in this series. He‟s a member of an old, German family, some of whom lived
on the west side of the river in the early days. He is currently the, are you the principal owner
George of the, you‟re the president of the Monarch Road…
Mr. Jackoboice: Machinery.
Interviewer: Machinery Company. And I‟m going to let Mr. Jackoboice, I‟m going to ask him to
talk, about his earliest memories about his family, about his grandparents or any of the other
relatives that he remembers vividly and, tell us about, growing up in Grand Rapids.
Mr. Jackoboice: Thank you, it‟s a real pleasure to be interviewed by you this rainy election
evening. You asked about my present place in Grand Rapids community as you have so well and
correctly stated, I am and have been president of the Monarch Road Machinery Company for
forty-three years, which means only that I haven‟t had a promotion in a long time. We are
probably perhaps the oldest machinery business in this part of the state, having been in
�2
continuous operation in the machinery business since 1856 or, as of now, for one hundred and
eighteen years. We represent the fourth and the beginning of the fifth generation, both in the
business and in Grand Rapids.
Interviewer has asked if I can recall some of the more significant things connected with my
boyhood and youth in Grand Rapids. I actually, believe I could ramble on for several hours,
perhaps several days, under the right set of circumstances where one thought, would lead to
another.
I was born and raised on the west side of Grand Rapids, approximately on the corner of Mount
Vernon Avenue and Allen Street. This area has since been taken over by the expressway,
however when I was a young man, growing up, this was one of the more significant and I might
add, more beautiful neighborhoods in, on at least the west side of the river. I can recall many of
the more famous families who were the nucleus of Grand Rapids society of that generation.
To continue my, all of my grandparents were in Grand Rapids prior to eighteen fifty-three. Now
this is no great tribute to me, I happened to be born into this, into these families. My grandfather
William F. Hake was perhaps the earliest German or one of the early Germans at least to come
into this area. He came from a town in Westphalia, Germany, sometimes remembered and called
Westphallen by the older German residents. He came from a town, a village called Dunschede,
D-U-N-S-C-H-E-D-E, which is near Attendorn which is in turn is northeast of Cologne,
Germany. He came over here as an orphan boy, when he was somewhere between seventeen and
eighteen years of age. His first position was in Detroit and he became a very close friend of the
founder, I believe, of one of the early Detroit newspapers. I cannot recall whether it was the
Detroit Free Press or the Detroit News. But he was a printer‟s devil and then later on he decided
to go to Grand Rapids, Michigan and he walked the distance according to his diary. He lived in
Lansing, Michigan for a very short time and he once laughingly said, but with some measure of
regret, that he had an option on the land, there now stands the State Capital. He paid forty dollars
for this option, which he later surrendered. He then moved to Grand Rapids and became involved
with a man by the name of John Hanchett, who was a pioneer harness maker. The employment
with this gentleman continued for a very brief time. After which he became involved with John
Clancy who, history will recall, founded the first wholesale grocery in the Grand Rapids, or
Western Michigan area. My grandfather married a lady, a very beautiful lady, I might add, by the
name of Anna Maria Schettler, who was a native of Württemberg, province of Württemberg,
Germany.
Interviewer: Spell her last name for me.
Mr. Jackoboice: Her name was S-C-H-E-T-T-L-E-R and her first names were Anna Maria. She
came first to Chicago with her parents and I might add also, that her home city was Altensteig,
which is in the Black Forest of Germany, not too far from Freiburg. I visited these places so I
know where of I speak. She lived on a hill, and the significance that in her later married days, she
�3
also lived on a hill, occupying a beautiful home which is now the site of the parking lot for
Butterworth Hospital. It is on the southeast corner of Ransom and Crescent Street. She came, to
get back however, she came from Chicago, and my grandfather and grandmother were married at
St. Michael‟s Church in Chicago and it was said that one of the original Marshall Field family
were in the wedding party. They came to Grand Rapids where my grandfather, because of his
integrity and his thrift and his energy, was determined to be a success and I might add that he
was. I can epitomize his career in this very brief statement that he came here as an orphan boy
knowing practically nobody and when he died at 94 years of age, the City Hall flag was at half
mast for three days. He was engaged during his lifetime in furniture manufacturing, lumbering,
the wholesaling of liquor, he also had a wheelbarrow company and he was at one time treasurer
of the city of Grand Rapids and placed into execution the bookkeeping system that was used
until about oh, thirty, thirty-five years ago.
Interviewer: When did he arrive here in Grand Rapids, George, when did your grandparents
come after they were married?
Mr. Jackoboice: My grandfather Hake arrived in Grand Rapids I would have to guess slightly but
I‟m correct within three or four years, about 1850, I believe the correct date is 1847.
Interviewer: Do you remember him?
Mr. Jackoboice: Oh very, very vividly. He lived as I say, until he was ninety-four years of age.
He was a very active man and right up until a week before he died he was, quite a stroller about
town with his high silk hat and his gold cane. He was very meticulously dressed and a very
popular and quite an interesting personality. He was known to have bet significant sums on
whether it would, the temperature for example would drop to “X” degrees on a hot day or, if
some candidate or other would win an election. He was nicknamed at times “Bet a Million
Gates” in tribute to one of the more significant legendary characters of his generation. According
to the stories that my mother and uncles told me, on two occasions he bet 15,000 dollars which
was then a very high sum, on the outcome of presidential elections. Both times, fortunately he
won. They had fifteen children, twelve of who lived to maturity, and the last one died only about
two years ago. The last uncle was Louis F. Hake. His children were involved in their time with,
merchandising, with coal, with insurance, with music, with medicine and practically all the
facets of the business life of Grand Rapids. They were a very interesting family and they married
into some rather well-known and well-established families. Currently one of the better known
members in the local historical group is Dr. William F. Hake who was married to Clara Voigt,
who was the lady, if you have gone thru the Voigt House, stands at the left as you enter and she
is dressed in a bridal outfit as, at the entrance as I say of the parlor of their home.
Interviewer: Excuse me; this is your Grandfather Hake?
Mr. Jackoboice: This was his son.
�4
Interviewer: No, I mean the man you started to talk about.
Mr. Jackoboice: That‟s correct.
Interviewer: Was your great grandfather; let‟s start over; who was the man who came here in the
eighteen forties or fifties?Mr. Jackoboice: William F. Hake was my grandfather who came here
in the early, prior to eighteen fifty. His son was also William F. Hake but he was a doctor.
Interviewer: And he is the one who married…
Mr. Jackoboice: He is the one who married the Voigt. To continue with my grandfather, William
F. Hake, who should not be confused with his son who was also William Hake but who was a
doctor and the doctor was the gentleman who was married to Clara Voigt. Continuing, however
as I indicated with my doctor, with my grandfather William F. Hake, he was an inveterate athlete
of sorts and until he was 93 years he swam every summer in Lake Michigan and by that I don‟t
mean that he waded out up to his knees, he would go well over his height and swim for probably
a quarter a mile along the shore line and up until the year before he died, this was his regular
practice. He also would walk up and down Michigan Street hill because that led to and from his
home; he had many friends along the route there including Mr. Kusterer of the Brewery.
Kusterer was of an old Grand Rapids brewing family and was one of the persons who went down
with the steamer Alpena as it was crossing from, I believe Grand Haven to Milwaukee, it was
only by the most strange, strangest circumstances that William F. Hake did not make that trip,
and that is of course another and very lengthy story. To continue with some of his children, and
I cannot give, even a capsule history of all of the twelve surviving children because that would
take far too many hours. But, Dr. William F. Hake was a very prominent physician and surgeon
in Grand Rapids. They had no children and in each case they loved to travel. So they made
frequent trips to Europe and at a time when travel was not as simple as in these days of jet
transportation. He, among other things, donated all of his medical services to such charitable
organizations as the Sisters of the Poor, the Sisters of the Good Shepherd which at that time had
an institution which operated a laundry, and also took care of girls, who in the minds of many
were delinquents; and also of Saint John‟s Home. His, in his medical career he amassed a
reasonable amount of money and, of course his wife, Clara survived him and she became again,
a resident of the old family home, the Voigt House on College Avenue. And the College Avenue
home, of course has been so well recorded and documented that it probably should not be again
mentioned her. My mother…
Interviewer: Excuse me, when did Dr. Hake die?
Mr. Jackoboice: Dr. Hake died of pernicious anemia about nineteen twenty-two, that‟s within,
within a year or two either away.
Interviewer: Did his wife live into the fifties, I think….
�5
Mr. Jackoboice; Yes, I would think well past the fifties. I often would have luncheon with her.
She was very frankly, very, very fond of my wife, who was, whose maiden name was Helen
Gast. And whenever we would meet down at any of the restaurants of the city, why they would
always, she would always send a little remembrance over to my wife in the form of a friendly
drink or equal.
Interviewer: I just asked George about where Dr. Hake was buried because I had never found
him on the Voigt lot. Now, you tell your story George.
Mr. Jackoboice: Dr. Hake was buried at Mount Calvary Cemetery on the west side which is
right off Leonard Street. Dr. Hake, it should be mentioned, was Catholic. His wife, Clara Hake
was not. But at that time in history, there was a rule in the Catholic Church that non-Catholics
could not be buried in a Catholic cemetery, so there was a little problem there which later was
resolved in this way. Some time, some years after Dr. Hake had died, she, he was removed at her
request, to a plot in Oakhill Cemetery, which is on the southeast side of the city, and it is, it was
there that she later was buried. There was a huge granite cross placed on his grave by his widow
at Mount Cavalry and ironically it was done by an outside stone mason and one of the uprights
unfortunately was just a little bit off kilter. Now that has no real significance except perhaps one
shouldn‟t patronize, especially in things like that, their own native trades‟ people.
Interviewer: You were to talk about some other members of that generation of Hakes, besides
Dr. Hake?
Mr. Jackoboice: Yes…, there‟s one interesting story, if you don‟t mind, I‟ll go back to my
grandmother‟s generation.
Interviewer: Not at all.
Mr. Jackoboice: My grandmother was, who was named, whose name was Anna Maria Schettler
had a sister who was named Louisa. Now Louisa was a very, very beautiful girl. If you‟ve ever
seen a picture of Southern Belle, which is a rather famous portrait, she was a very, she bore a
very close resemblance to that person. Now, I never knew Louisa but Louisa lived in Chicago.
She was first married to a man, I believe by the name of Miller. They had no children and Miller
was very, very successful as a rathskeller operator in Chicago and this was certainly before the
days of the Chicago fire, which really doesn‟t mean a thing except that it goes way back in early
Chicago history. Louisa, as I indicated, was a very beautiful woman she had very, very many
friends, she was very vivacious and vital and, suddenly Miller died and left her with a than
considerable amount of money. Louisa then married a man somewhat older than she and he was
a bona fide German count and, the story goes that, he was, he had the title of Count Von Dreisen,
but he didn‟t necessarily have the money that, should accompany his title. Well, they lived in
glory and traveled with the finest society in Chicago and my grandfather went off and chided her
for being so reckless with her money and she said, “Well, Bill (my grandfather‟s name), I would
only say this: That I would like to abide by your wishes Bill but I have nobody to leave this
�6
money to except my sister, your wife and I have no need for saving it because it‟s more money
than I could ever spend. Later on Count Von Dreisen died and Louisa found herself
impoverished. She lived in a very modest apartment overlooking the boulevards on once she had
ridden in glory with fine horses and furs and the best that Chicago could offer. And it was ironic
that this lady who turned down any inheritance from her father, in favor of her sister had to ask,
or had to call upon her brother-in-law to pay for her funeral.
Interviewer: Now, was there other members of that Hake, of your mother‟s generation who were
particularly interesting
Mr. Jackoboice: My mother, of course, was Helen Matilda Hake; she was one of the three
daughters of William F. Hake and Anna Maria Schettler, who lived to maturity. She went to
Saint Mary‟s Academy, at Notre Dame, Indiana and she, often mentioned that Helen
Studebaker, among others was one of her classmates. Helen Studebaker was, of course, was part
of the old carriage family later to make the Studebaker automobile. She was married to my father
Joseph Jackoboice, Edward, I‟m sorry, Edward Joseph Jackoboice and they had and I am the son
of that union along with my brother Edward and four sisters. I will tell about them a little bit
later. But my mother was a tremendously interesting person, she seemed to always had her
suitcase packed and would be ready to travel at a moment‟s notice. She would, I‟m, sure drop
any wifely chores to show her children a very good time, either by taking a walk to the park or
engaging in games or anything of that nature. She was fun loving, she played the piano, she
spoke fluent German and reasonably, fine French, she lived to be seventy-nine years of age and
certainly, life never was the same again after she died. She was, as I say a tremendous person.
And I‟m sure that sentiment is accurate also by my brother Edward and my sisters Frances, Rita,
Helen and Ruth. And Helen and Ruth were twins. Helen died at twenty-seven; Ruth is the
surviving twin, Rita the youngest died at seven years of age.
Interviewer: Why don‟t you tell, tell us about the Jackoboice family, when they came to Grand
Rapids, and what they first did, and anything you can think of interest in, along that line, George.
Mr. Jackoboice: Thank you. The grandparents on my father‟s side were Frances Rasch; that was
spelled R-A-S-C-H. She came from the Kingdom of Prussia, which is now, of course a part of
Germany. My grandfather, Joseph Jackoboice, came from a border city in what was then known
as the Duchy of Warsaw. And as the Kingdom of Poland and of course, it was a land that had
suffered politically and economically because of its tri-partitions, by in turn, the concurrently I
should say by the Austrians, the Prussians and the Russians. Joseph Jackoboice, according to the
unconfirmed records, was born in Kalisz, which was a city in Poland which is 1800 years old,
and was formally on the Amber route from the Orient to Eastern Europe and of course,
eventually into Western Europe and he came.
Interviewer: When was he born, approximately, George?
�7
Mr. Jackoboice: My grandfather Joseph Jackoboice was born March sixteenth, eighteen twentyfour. He came to the United States, no later than eighteen fifty-two when he was twenty-eight
years old. He came at a time, when migration from that part of the world was for political
reasons, not economic. He came to this country with an education and he came with money.
Almost immediately upon arrival here he established himself in business. And that explains why,
when I said at the beginning of this interview that I represent the descendents of a family who
had been involved in the machinery business in Grand Rapids continuously for one hundred and
eighteen years.
Interviewer: One question I have about the name Jackoboice, was that name spelled differently
in the early days, is it a German name, or was it a Polish name or was a family of mixed origins?
Mr. Jackoboice: I would believe, that the name was Anglicized or corrupted. The original
spelling according to the best information we have was J-A-K-U-B-O-W-I-C-Z, which would by
its ending be more Russian than probably Polish. He himself, almost immediately upon his
arrival in Michigan, changed his name to Jackoboice. It is significant, however that in either
version there are ten letters. So that in essence the name was Anglicized from probably phonetic
reasons. But it was not shortened. Why he did this, nobody seems to know. I personally have
spent a considerable amount of money in several trips to the old country to determine why he
left. Although he was a very, very successful man in business and although he had the health,
and the finances and the time to travel, he never did so. He always remained in Grand Rapids,
Michigan and frankly there is very little that can be found, showing correspondence between this
country and his native land. There are no letters, there is no documentation, why he came,
nobody knows. He rarely ever spoke of it. And it‟s kind of a fascinating and very intriguing
mystery.
Interviewer: Then he had no brothers or sisters who came here, is that correct?
Mr. Jackoboice: He came alone. He came alone and, when he came and I mentioned earlier that
he was about, he came, he was born in 1824 and he came here in 1852. So he would have been
approximately twenty-eight years of age. And at twenty-eight he obviously was beyond the age
of military service so he did not come for military reasons. As I say again, it‟s a fascinating
mystery, I don„t know except that, the name in its original spelling is a very well name, a very
well known name in Poland. Whether he spoke languages other than Poland, Polish or English
or German, I do not know but I believe he spoke all three, if not a fourth. His wife Frances
Rasch, as I indicated came from the Kingdom of Prussia, from the town, from the town of
Breslau. Her entire family came to Grand Rapids, into Kent County and many of them pioneered
and homesteaded in the fruit and apple and peach orchards in the Conklin, Sparta and Wright
areas. They still have these extensive orchards there. Another branch of her family went to
Florence, Alabama and founded a village there by the name of St. Florian. And there‟s an old
house there which was built by her brother which, in its time was a sort of miniature Gone-with-
�8
the-Wind mansion. I don‟t know whatever happened to it, but it was when I last saw it twenty
five years ago, it was then even very decrepit so it‟s probably fallen into decay by this time.
Interviewer: Well, you spoke of your, the Hake family as being Roman Catholic, I‟m going to
assume, that the Jackoboices were too and also I believe they had something to do with the
beginning of Saint Mary‟s Parish on the West Side, is that correct?
Mr. Jackoboice: That is, correct; both William F. Hake, Joseph Jackoboice and his wife, Frances
Rasch Jackoboice were charter members of Saint Mary‟s Church. Mrs. William F. Hake was
however, a charter member of the Lutheran Church on Michigan Street Hill. My grandfather,
Jackoboice lived on the site, which is now occupied by the convent of Saint Mary‟s Church.
Saint Mary‟s Church, incidentally is the ethnic, Catholic German church. It is the second oldest
parish in the dioceses of Grand Rapids and it was, the church you see now, of course, followed
the original church and the present church is pure Gothic and one must really go in there to see
how beautiful it is, in the stained glass windows and the arrays of sacred vessels and vestments
and so on but, are over there in the repository. You ever been in there?
Interviewer: No, why don‟t you talk about your father and what, where he was born and where
he went to school and things of that sort.
Mr. Jackoboice: My father was one of the two surviving children of Joseph Jackoboice and
Frances Rasch. The other children died either as infants or as young people in their late teens or
early twenties. They had all met in one case, in the case of my Uncle George, for whom I am
named, it was quite a blow to my father because he was only, it was his only living brother and
he drowned off Manhattan Beach, as it was then known at Reed‟s Lake. My father told how he
looked for him on this sultry August afternoon, and after everybody had given up searching for
him, he continued and found his body in the early morning hours. He never got over the tragedy
of his brother‟s drowning and only reluctantly ever would he go towards Reed‟s Lake. He
however continued, his brother George by the way, was, I believe nineteen years old when this
tragedy occurred. He was an excellent swimmer but apparently he was a victim of cramps and
nobody saw him in time and they found his high wheeled bicycle out by the side of a tree. My
father continued in the business established by his father. And that business was originally
known as the Joseph Jackoboice Company and then later on, was renamed the Westside
Ironworks and the extent of their manufacture, the scope of it included band saws, rip saws, cut
off saws, fine woodworking machinery. I‟m a little bit ahead of myself, but prior to the
manufacture of machinery, my grandfather manufactured sawmill and logging machinery,
lumber recording instruments, steam engines and he also made a specialty of fire escapes which
were installed on most of the early buildings of Grand Rapids and some of the ornamental iron
still survives on some of the older buildings. Later on…
Interviewer: Can you tell us, tell me where one could see examples of that ornamental ironwork?
�9
Mr. Jackoboice: I‟m guessing a little bit on this, but I believe some of the railings, might appear
and I‟d have to confirm this, on the, for example, the Ledyard Building along the side there, I
believe. They also well on the late, and lamented and fire destroyed Cody Hotel, I know they had
fire escapes and I used to kid my father about that because, it was quite a tragic situation and, but
fire escapes wouldn‟t have helped anybody in that holocaust. But anyway…..
Interviewer: The Cody or do you mean the other hotel across…..
Mr. Jackoboice: I‟m sorry I meant the Livingston Hotel. The Cody was across the street and that
was, I‟m so used to that because telling about that because the Cody Hotel was originally owned
and operated by a relative of Buffalo Bill Cody. Later on, we continued in the manufacture of
woodworking machinery; then later on became involved with the manufacturing of road
machinery and road maintainers, and devices for the maintenance of highways and this occurred
when the highway program of the United States was in its early days. And, quite often I would
drive throughout the country with my father, visiting these various road commissions, many of
them were not even known as road commissions because they had a sub-contract arrangements
with farmers of a given township or county. And negotiations would be made on an individual
basis. My father, I think, liked to travel around and be paid for it and he enjoyed it very much
and of course this, as his chauffeur and son and companion why we had a great time together.
Later on, after my father chose to retire, my brother and I assumed control of the business and is
now known as the Monarch Road Machinery Company with a factory and offices on Michigan
Street. We also own the building on the west side, one block south of Bridge Street which is
known as the Old German English School Association Building, better known as the German
School House. Many people like to believe that was the first building where we operated as a
family but actually it was the fourth. The first building was on a site which is approximately
where the Civic Auditorium is now. The second, was at an area now owned, now covered by the
Olds Manor, historically however that was known as German Corners or Rasch or the Rasch
House and that hotel was owned by my father and mother and an aunt.
Interviewer: Which corner was that?
Mr. Jackoboice: That was on the Northwest corner of Monroe and Bridge Street or Michigan. It
is where the Olds Manor is now And they later on, they moved from there to a site on the west
side of Grand River, approximately where the new Civic Theatre is scheduled to be built,
approximately where the old inter-urban bridge terminates. The later on the German English
School Society building was acquired by my grandfather and he converted to a factory.
Interviewer: I think we‟re coming to the end of the, this side of the tape or fairly close to it so I
think we‟ll turn the tape over at this point.
Part Two of an interview with Mr. George Jackoboice.
�10
Mr. Jackoboice: To continue, the business as I‟ve indicated previously has been variously known
under different company names but has always been in full control and operation by the
Jackoboice family. And during the business history, we as I have suggested before made sawmill machinery, logging machinery, then precision woodworking machinery, heavy road
machinery and now we are concentrated in hydraulic power control systems and as such we sell
these devices for the automatic control of things both in materials, handling, feeling, field,
agricultural, automotive, the ready-mix industry and a great variety of applications, throughout
the United States and Canada and probably 20 foreign countries. It is, I‟m sure a tribute to my
grandfather and my father who, respectively founded the business and I‟m sure that we‟re all
very grateful that because of their perseverance and industry that we survived as a tribute to the
American concept of free enterprise. It is also I‟m sure worthy of a proud note, that both of my
grandfathers William F. Hake and Joseph Jackoboice are memorialized in the permanent exhibits
at the Grand Rapids Public Museum. And in each case they were leaders and pioneers of their
respective, national origins, the one from Germany and the other Joseph Jackoboice who I‟m
sure was the first by at least ten years, to be in Grand Rapids and he was certainly the pioneer of
his nationality. I can only add that….
Interviewer: I wanted to ask you, what in, where in the public Museum would one go to find
these memorials, memorializations of your grandparents?
Mr. Jackoboice: They are in each case, on the second floor of the east building along the south
wall, where they have the Heritage Hall. And there as you walk down this one hallway you‟ll run
directly into the Germany exhibit and there‟s a picture there of William F. Hake and also of the
old German English School House that I mentioned earlier which the Jackoboices owned and
still own and immediately adjacent is the recognition of Joseph Jackoboice and the exhibit,
which tells about the Polish ethnic background of the city.
Interviewer: Go ahead.
Mr. Jackoboice: You mentioned earlier, about some of the neighborhood interests, that I was
privileged to enjoy on the west side. And of course when one goes by there now they will, they
will notice that it is strictly commercial, industrial. And in no sense, does it reflect what it once
upon a time was. For example, many of the old, of the older, and I would like to believe
influential pioneers of Grand Rapids lived in that neighborhood. For example, directly across the
street from my old boyhood home lived, the Voigts at that time, next door was T.W. Strahan.
Interviewer: Excuse me, exactly where was your boyhood home, George
Mr. Jackoboice: This home was at the corner of Mount Vernon and Allen Street; this was on the
southeast corner. But it is entirely obliterated now because the expressway, in its construction
was placed directly over the whole area within where I used to live. Directly …
Interviewer: Go ahead. You mentioned the Voigts lived on one side and the Strahans.
�11
Mr. Jackoboice: Strahans.
Interviewer: How do you spell that?
Mr. Jackoboice: S-T-R-A-H-A-N.
Interviewer: Tell us about, go on with the….
Mr. Jackoboice: T.W. Strahan was a very well known man of his generation, as was his son I
believe Tom. I don‟t really know what T.W. stood for but, I believe that was his father. Among
other things they had a clothing store in the city which was a very popular place way back
around the turn of the century, immediately adjacent was the old Bertsch Hall which was owned
the Bertsch family and they, it was a huge three story house and on the third floor there was a
ballroom. And of course this house was, in its glory days, was a tremendous place later on it
became very decadent and I believe was since destroyed.
Interviewer: Is that the Barclay Ayres and Bertsch family or….?
Mr. Jackoboice: No. I don‟t believe it‟s that family.
Interviewer: I see. Is
Mr. Jackoboice: I don‟t know exactly the original…
Interviewer: Is it spelled B-E-R-T-S-C-H?
Mr. Jackoboice: I think so, I believe so. And then there was a gentleman by the name of
Mordyke who lived, also nearby. Mordyke used to tell me that he once, was offered a partnership
with Steketee of the department store, but he thought it was too much of a risk and rejected it.
Much, I think, to his regret. Immediately next door to us was Anton Hirth who was a stone cutter
and who was responsible for much of the stone work on the older buildings of Grand Rapids.
And this particularly interesting to me because my grandfather Hake, provided the bond which
was necessary for Mr. Hirth to get his first big contract, which was, I believe, on the old original
Central High School, later to become Junior College on the corner of Lyon Street and..
Interviewer: And Ransom or Barclay?
Mr. Jackoboice: Barclay, I believe, and Lyon. It is partly, it has been pretty much torn down the
last few years and only the gymnasium of a much later vintage survives. In the area also, was
Kutsche of the hardware store. And Kutsche, until he became an old man, was still very, very
active in the business. It was later taken over by the firm of Brander and they‟re down on
Leonard Street now. There was also Powers who built, the Powers Theatre, now the Mid-Town,
but for many, many years housed the leading legitimate theatrical events of the city. He also
owned the Powers and Walker Casket Company. And also in their area were the Knapes, of the
Knape and Vogt Manufacturing Company, the family home was there. Liebermann of the
�12
Liebermann and Gitlen Metal Company lived very modestly although he was certainly a very
wealthy man in his time, lived also nearby. There was, Gill whose son Corrington Gill later
became assistant Secretary of Commerce of the United States. There was a Drueke who is well
known in the city now as the manufacturer of chess men. Also, Wurzburgs, of the department
store lived, just a block away and I think that the, some of the problems of identifying the
Wurzburg families and I emphasize the plurality is that according to my information Mr.
Wurzburg was married three times. Each wife in turn died, but by each wife he had five children.
And I think one of the, incidentally, our city commissioner, Abe Drasin, also lived around the
corner and I was, I think, very much intrigued by the ethnic mix of the neighborhood at that time
because many of the people have attained some measure of importance and significance in the
community in later years, I grew up with and I think that would be true in other neighborhoods
also, but I think that is especially significant to me. I think one of the most fascinating, and I‟m
sure one of the most controversial figures I‟ve ever known, lived directly across the street and
that was Edward N. Barnard sometimes know as Bernard, but we always knew him as Ed
Barnard. Ed became, he was perhaps one of the youngest men ever to graduate from the
University of Michigan Law school, graduating, I think when he was nineteen years of age, he
became prosecuting attorney and there were a few problems involved with his tenure of office
because it seemed that the electorate weren‟t too happy because he was away from his office
more than he was present. Later on, Ed went to Detroit, Michigan and down there he attained
considerable political prominence, both as a lawyer and also as a confidant and ally of Frank
McKay. And I believe that between that Frank McKay with Ed Barnard ran the state of Michigan
politically for twenty five years. Now I didn‟t know Ed legally, I knew him as a neighbor and I
knew him socially. And I knew many of the nice things about Ed Barnard and those things I can
never forget. For example, one day when my mother was sitting on the front porch of her house,
Ed Barnard arrived and his house, which was staffed by a housekeeper, was in pretty bad decay
so far as painting was concerned. So my mother said: “Ed, why don‟t you paint that house?” And
Ed Barnard replied: “Well, Helen (my mother), why should I, I‟m never here?” And she said:
“Because I sit here and have to look at it.” And he said: “I never thought of it that way, Helen.”
That was Friday afternoon. Monday morning there were five painters there. But that‟s the way
Ed Barnard was. When he died, according to the story, he left five Cadillacs, he had an estate in
Detroit, complete with bridle paths and boat wells, yet he did not live there, he lived at a very
modest apartment in the, I believe the Fort Shelby Hotel and took most of his meals over the slab
of a soda fountain. And he had a chauffeur by the name of Henry, to whom he promised many
things but, I think Henry never got much more than his thirty five dollars a week. And yet, Ed
would be tremendously generous with other people. He, when he died, left several deposit boxes,
and in these boxes for the most part was nothing but money. Bills to the amount of several
million dollars, I think, the figure was around three. He also left one box that was solid with
emeralds, diamonds, and significant pieces of expensive jewelry. The irony of the thing is that
even though Ed Barnard was a lawyer, for many years a criminal lawyer, a practice which his
father very much frowned against, because his father Bertram was sent here from Boston and he
�13
was a very strict and ardent believer in the Bible and frankly supported missionaries around the
world, Bertram, his father told me personally, that he was aghast at Ed‟s practice and told him
unless he became involved in a more legitimate type of operation that, he would have to limit his
visits, and Ed for all his failings, if you choose to call them that, adored his father. And Ed went
to corporation law. And he would often ask me to visit him in Detroit. But Ed was really an
egomaniac. He would use a person as a display for himself and you can refer to the rather
interesting articles that appeared upon his death. And I think they‟ll attest pretty much to this
flamboyance and theatrical qualities; the irony of it is also that, Ed Barnhard died without a will.
And most of that money that he had acquired, I believe was for one reason or another contested
by the Internal Revenue Service. How much of it went to the family, I really don‟t know.
Interviewer: Did he have a family of his own?
Mr. Jackoboice: Ed Barnhard was married very briefly to a lady by the name of Estelle Skinner.
The Skinners were a very, very fine and well regarded family in the city. I believe they were
married for a year for I am guessing, but perhaps a year and they were divorced. From this union
they had one child. Why were they divorced, I don‟t know but, whenever Ed Barnard would
return to Grand Rapids, he would always, literally have a date with his divorced wife and, you
would think they were on their honeymoon. They were ardently, appeared to be ardently in love
and yet, I guess they couldn‟t live together. She owned, I believe the Manufacturers building
downtown, is that it…
Interviewer: Which building is that….?
Mr. Jackoboice: That‟s where Junior College had its offices down. It was a display, it was a
Interviewer: You mean in that, farther down…
Mr. Jackoboice: Yes, across from Klingmans, in that area.
Interviewer: Yes, I know where it is….
Mr. Jackoboice: Yes, and that was owned by the Skinner family and Ed Barnard later on,
through his wife who had died, and by the way, Ed couldn‟t have been more gracious, more
beneficent to anybody than he was to his wife. She had a malignancy, I think a bone malignancy,
bone cancer and he hired the best specialist in the country and provided her with every need. Ed
was also marvelous to his mother. And his mother by the way was a brother, sister I should say
of Frank Knox who was later Secretary of the Navy of the United States and I believe Vice
President. And whenever, Ed was in town, Frank quite often would visit him. And so we did
have some rather significant nationally known neighbors even back, forty some years ago. Ed
always regarded us as a friend and I liked him tremendously. He was eccentric, he was a
maverick, he was exciting, and I tell you, there was never a dull day when Ed was home visiting
with his father and his mother and sisters.
�14
Interviewer: Let‟s go back to you a little bit, where did you first go to school? And tell us about
your school life.
Mr. Jackoboice: I personally, attended Saint Mary‟s Parochial School, which is a Catholic school
and all the morning classes in those years were in German until the beginning of World War
One, when it was not considered patriotic to continue the use of the German language, as I
mentioned earlier, my father and mother both spoke fluent German: I spoke reasonably good
German until I was seven or eight years old. I continued on at Saint Mary‟s and then I went to
Catholic Central High School. I played football there. I later went to Davenport Institute then
known as the Davenport-McLaughlin Institute, a business school for a year, then I went on to the
University of Notre Dame where I graduated in nineteen thirty one, in the department of
journalism. And it‟s perhaps you wonder how I could reconcile journalism and the machinery
business. Well, one is an avocation, the business I grew up in ever since I was a lad, I would
spend much of my free time down at the factory either making toys and boats on the band saws
and sometimes cutting my fingers in the process, but I did continue and graduated in journalism
and upon my graduation from Notre Dame in nineteen thirty one, I entered the business in, I‟d
been active there ever since. My three sons are also in the business as is my brother and his son
James.
Interviewer: I‟d like to go back again ad ask you about that period of life when you were at Saint
Mary‟s and perhaps at Catholic Central also. Did you have what, what was your social life like in
those days? Or when you were little did you, were your friends confined to your immediate
neighborhood or did you, when you went to Catholic Central did you meet an entirely different,
new group of people, just give me some thoughts on that if you will.
Mr. Jackoboice: Thank you, when I was at, when I was growing up, I was very fortunate to have
had, to have through my parents and my family connections, an acquaintanceship with a great
many of the older residents of the city, the older families. And frankly, these names that I, of
which I speak, there are many, many more which have so far been unmentioned, because of the
time limitations…were frankly dinner table conversation. And because of that, with my father
and mother who were very knowledgeable on many things, we enjoyed a great family life, and
we travelled a great deal and that continued all through my youth. Later on of course when I was
in high school, pretty much the same pattern of life prevailed except that then I was in my teens.
Later on when I attended the University of Notre Dame, I became, I suppose more nationally
minded because of the national character of the school. Most of the students there were from
areas other than the Midwest, I don‟t say all of them, but a great many of them were from all
over the United States plus many foreign lands. It‟s also perhaps of some interest in connection
with Notre Dame that my grandfather, William F. Hake and my grandmother Mrs. Hake traveled
extensively to Europe and is believed that on one of these trips they met Father Edward Sorin,
who was the founder of the University of Notre Dame. And because my grandfather then had
nine sons, he enjoyed this connection very much and all nine sons went to Notre Dame
University and for many years it was perhaps the largest single family, to have attended Notre
�15
Dame. Gregori the famous Italian artist who painted the murals, in the main building and in the
church and also in the Golden Dome also painted life-size portraits of my grandfather and
grandmother. These portraits now are in our home. The original organ at the old Sacred Heart
Church at Notre Dame was bought by my grandfather and presented to Saint Mary‟s Church in
Grand Rapids, where it remained until it was replaced, oh probably thirty years ago. It was a
tremendous instrument and I don‟t think that the organists ever were equal to its wide range of
pipes and possibilities. But that relationship of Notre Dame University and its principals
prevailed for many years. When my grandfather and grandmother would be at the University
they would share a suite in the administration building down there as a special guest of the
president and the staff of the University. When my grandfather died, a delegation came from the
University to pay tribute to him, at his funeral.
Interviewer: I‟d like to go on a little further. Now your family, up to a certain point, pretty much
lived on the West Side but you‟re not, you haven‟t lived there for a long time and when did
people begin to move out of that area, members of your family, that is?
Mr. Jackoboice: We continued to live on the West Side, I did until my marriage on June 17th
1936 to Helen Gast, who was the daughter of Peter and Emily Gast, were I‟m sure, a well known
family in business and society in the city. We lived for a very brief period of time, after our
marriage on the west side near John Ball Park. Later we moved on Auburn Avenue and then for
the last, approximately twenty five years, we‟ve lived here at Park Hills Drive, in a suburb
known as Cascadia, which is immediately, which is in Grand Rapids Township and directly
across from East Grand Rapids. But we‟re living in a pastoral area which is a very fine
neighborhood and one, where my three sons were raised and fortunately two of the three are
now, also our neighbors and each case living only two blocks away. My oldest son lives in
Spring Lake. And then of course, he enjoys it very much down there too.
Interviewer: I‟m rather interested in your house; it‟s a very beautiful home. I don‟t believe you
built it, is that correct?
Mr. Jackoboice: This house is one of the oldest in this particular residential area. It was built, I
would believe, in the middle nineteen twenties. I understand that the man who began it, at that
period of time, had extravagant ideas and somehow, was not able to finance it adequately so he
left it uncompleted and sold it to a man by the name of Alex Sergeant. Alex, with his wife and
his son Snover(?) and daughter Phyllis, lived here until we acquired it and we have added to it
quite significantly, we‟ve added where we‟re sitting now, a library in walnut, which is a very
beautiful room and I say that not so much in tribute to me but, in a tribute to Warren Rindge
who, was probably one of the finest of the traditional architects that this city has ever known.
Warren was educated abroad among other things and is, and to attest to his ability he was also on
the State Historical Commission and his particular emphasis was on historic doings of Mackinac
Island. You‟ll see his name mentioned up there and he often attended the meetings at the island,
at the Grand Hotel. Warren died about a year ago and his wife died, just very recently. But he
�16
was a tremendous architect for this type of traditional building and it certainly, every time I told
him in his lifetime and I remind myself afterwards, that its one of the more significant things
that, I think he‟s done.
Interviewer: Now, I know you have a large family and, have many cousins in addition to your
immediate family but, and I‟m sure that your family and your business take a good deal of your
time but [do] you have other social interests or clubs that you belong to that you enjoy in Grand
Rapids?
Mr. Jackoboice: Yes, I belong to the Peninsular Club where I‟ve been a member many years. I
belong to Cascade Hills Country Club, I also belong to the Sierra Club and I have been a
member of Hidden Valley at Gaylord for many, many years. I think I have a little sand in my
shoes because I love to travel much to my wife‟s dismay at times because she said she can go to
Vienna probably easier than she can to Toronto. But, over the years, beginning in nineteen thirty,
I traveled to Europe and in the trip of nineteen thirty and again in nineteen thirty-four; I traveled
by bicycle throughout Western Europe and in some of the areas what are now back of the Iron
Curtain. But I knew those, I knew the area then, when it was an independent, they were
independent countries like Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Austria, and Poland. I did not
get into Russia although I tried because at that time the United States did not recognize the
Soviet Union. Even though we had the co-operation of the State Department, we were a little bit
reluctant to go because of the hazardous, political situation. But nevertheless we did, with a
friend travel by bicycle throughout Western Europe. Then again in nineteen thirty-four, I made a
similar trip alone, taking in many of the areas that I missed the first time. Subsequently I have
been around the world, traveling throughout the Orient into Malaysia, Indonesia, India, up in
Afghanistan, Iran, throughout the Mediterranean countries, all of Western Europe, quite a few
times. And I enjoy it immensely and like to read and reminisce about these areas because I think
that when you have memories and have an interest in foreign lands, you have an interest in
people and you recognize their good qualities of all these races and nationalities. And I think it‟s
a tremendous advantage, in both in your business and your way of looking at life. You get a
really a philosophy of life rather than psychology of living. And I think there‟s a big difference
in that term.
Interviewer: I‟d like to go back and cover an area that I should have covered, should have asked
you about a little bit earlier. Grand Rapids was one of those cities during the depression that was
fairly hard hit, especially the furniture industry. Was your business badly affected at that time?
Mr. Jackoboice: Yes, certainly it was affected and I might add that I learned more basic lessons
in economics than I ever did in all the economics, or business courses that I ever pursued at the
university. You learned many things that were not taught in books and it‟s been most helpful in
my business career ever since. We of course, Grand Rapids was severely disturbed at that time
by the economic problems of its day, but in the overall, I don‟t think I ever had more fun, on a
more modest budget, and I think that was true of any of our contemporaries, and I‟m speaking of
�17
course, of the interviewer also. We were, everybody was pretty much in the same financial
plight, so I think people then would boast how little they earned a week rather than how much.
Business-wise, we did at the time a considerable business with governmental agencies and of
course, they were, their obligations were either deferred or denied completely and so it was a
long time before the businesses in general became solvent and life became to assume a little
different hue. I‟m not going to say that one way is more pleasant than the other. I think each has
its place in our lives and I‟m sure that we‟re all, we all who have lived through the depression
and we‟re better for it. Do you agree with that?
Interviewer: Well. I don‟t remember it as vividly as you do, but I think I do, I do have that rather,
some rather vivid memories and I think, some of my younger friends would behave a little
differently if they had known what I knew in those days. One other, and we‟re sort of running
out of time at this point, and I‟d like to ask a question, sort of a general question which I‟ve
phrased in different ways when I‟ve talked to other people. And the question is this: What do you
think is the most significant change in the city or in the country or in the world that you can
recognize in your lifetime? Is that too difficult a question?
Mr. Jackoboice: Well, with reverence, probably is so broad it‟s flat, and I think anybody who
could answer that completely could copyright the formula and retire for a life on the income.
But, I think that somehow, people are, I think, that the pride of accomplishment and the pride of
doing a good job, no matter how humble it is, is quite lost in today‟s society. And there‟s too
much of the attitude of „what‟s in it for me?‟ Which up to a point, I suppose reasonable to expect
where economics have a very viable part of our lives, however I think life would be much more
pleasant and enjoyable and the economic gains would follow if people were more dedicated to
their lives and to their work, they would, in spite of themselves profit by it.
Interviewer: I‟ve got another question, I haven‟t asked this one but, I think you are young
enough to look towards the future, some of the other people I‟ve interviewed have really been
very close to the end of their lives. I wonder what you think about the future of Grand Rapids.
Mr. Jackoboice: Well, I think, the future of Grand Rapids is tremendous. I‟m a little bit awed by
your preface about this item of age. You can be either in the old age of your youth or in the youth
of your old age. I think, I prefer to be in my youth of old age Philosophically you can say well
there‟s, if you can say the glass is half empty that‟s bad, if you say it‟s half full, that‟s great.
Well, I believe it‟s half full. Grand Rapids for the future, I would personally love to see a
revitalization, resurgence of the downtown area of Grand Rapids. I have longed been the
champion of that. And I think it‟s too bad that the thing has been permitted to deteriorate. Now, I
know that economics, over which many have had no control have entered into this problem, but
that the same people who probably permitted it to happen, should also be instrumental in its
revival. And I think, that it‟s some of these things really are quite basic and I think, the pursuit of
these, better things is, such as have long been planned should be finalized and I really don‟t think
that there is too much difficulty once, and I think this is an important thing, once you make a
�18
start. It‟s just like when people, when a man on an autumn afternoon rakes the leaves, pretty soon
a dozen other people are doing the same thing because they‟re more or less inspired by his
example. Maybe in some measure that‟s what could happen to our city.
Interviewer: Well, thank you Mr. Jackoboice, George, for this very interesting interview. This
will go into the archives of the Grand Valley, Grand Valley State Colleges, and who knows,
perhaps somebody will be listening to our voices a hundred years hence or perhaps, later even
than that. Well, but we‟ll never; we won‟t live long enough to know, I think we‟ll conclude it
now.
INDEX
B
Barclay Ayres Family · 12
Barnard, Ed · 13, 14
Bertsch Family · 11, 12
Bertsch Hall · 11
C
Hidden Valley at Gaylord · 17
Hirth, Anton · 12
J
Jackoboice, Edward Joseph (Father) · 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 15
Jackoboice, Helen Gast (Wife) · 1, 5, 16
Jackoboice, Helen Matilda Hake (Mother) · 3, 4, 6, 10, 13,
15
Jackoboice, Joseph (Grandfather) · 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
Jackoboice, Uncle George · 8
Cascade Hills Country Club · 17
Catholic Central High School · 15
Clancy, John · 2
Cody Hotel · 9
K
D
Klingmans · 14
Knape and Vogt Manufacturing Company · 12
Knox, Frank · 14
Kusterer, Mr. · 4
Kutsche, Mr. · 12
Davenport Institute · 15
Detroit Free Press · 2
Drasin, Abe · 13
G
Gill, Corrington · 12
Grand Rapids Public Museum · 10
H
Hake, Clara · 5
Hake, Dr. William F. · 3, 4
Hake, Louis F. · 3
Hake, William F. (Grandfather) · 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 12, 16
Hanchett, John · 2
L
Liebermann and Gitlen Metal Company · 12
Livingston Hotel · 9
M
Machinery Company · 1, 10
Marshall Field Family · 2
McKay, Frank · 13
Miller, Louisa Schletter · 5, 6
Miller, Mr. · 5
Mordyke, Mr. · 12
�19
P
Peninsular Club · 17
Powers and Walker Casket Company · 12
R
Rasch, Frances (Grandmother) · 7, 8
Reed‟s Lake · 8
Rindge, Warren · 17
S
Saint Mary‟s Parochial School · 15
Schettler, Anna-Maria (Grandmother) · 2, 5, 16
Sergeant, Alex · 17
Sierra Club · 17
Skinner Family · 14
Skinner, Estelle · 14
Sorin, Father Edward · 16
Steketee's · 12
Strahan, T.W. · 11
Studebaker, Helen · 6
U
University of Notre Dame · 6, 15, 16
V
Voigt, Clara · 3, 4
Von Dreisen, Count · 6
W
Wurzburg, Mr. · 13
Wurzburg‟s · 12
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d03981b367b88f09d26c9d27366abcb6.mp3
a872d47800d66102aaa050b78c392d1f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
Creator
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Various
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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application/pdf; audio/mp3
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eng
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RHC-23
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1971 - 1977
Sound
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RHC-23_43Jackaboice
Title
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Jackoboice, George
Creator
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Jackoboice, George
Description
An account of the resource
George Jackoboice was born in 1908. He graduated from the University of Notre Dame in 1931. He was a member of the Peninsular club and the Cascade Hills Country Club. He co-owned the family business, Monarch Road Machinery Co. He died on January 10, 1987.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Text
Sound
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application/pdf
audio/mp3
Source
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Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
Date
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1974
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1960b9f91441cfe4168a59ab45e08a39.pdf
c66eded7fb281d407779de9628210891
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collection, RHC-23
Gerritt VandenBosch
Tape # (7:54)
Interviewer: When did you come over to this country?
VandenBosch: We came in on, we arrived in New York on Memorial Day, 1920, in… New York
and from there we went to Inwood, Iowa, where a second cousin of my father lived, and we
stayed there for a few weeks until we found a place to live.
Interviewer: Did you have a problem finding a place?
VandenBosch: Not at that time because they arranged it, but it was right near their home in the
country on a farm.
Interviewer: Oh, this is of course what we have studied and we hear just the opposite. Did your
father have any problems with jobs? Did you just primarily farm?
VandenBosch: No it, this was after the war, after World War One and we were living in a time of
inflation then as we are right now, it was a period very similar, and he did have a problem
finding work because he had not farmed in the Netherlands. But he worked by the day, in
Inwood, in that area. He did some construction work, helped some farmers, anything he could
get a hold of at the time.
Interviewer: Did the, were the people that lived around you Dutch also? I mean, was like a
community?
VandenBosch: Most of them were, yes. Yes, it was a smaller Dutch community.
Interviewer: Let me see…did you feel discriminated at all because you were an
immigrant?..maybe at that age…
VandenBosch: Not there at first, remember I was only eight-years-old.
Interviewer: That’s true.
VandenBosch: And so I really don’t recall, but I don’t think that was true anyway. I don’t think
there was discrimination as we see it in many areas since that time, other races.
Interviewer: Was your family mobile, I mean was there the ability to move around the country?
Of course, like you say it was a time of inflation.
VandenBosch: You mean as far as transportation was concerned, or…?
Interviewer: Right, and well did you move like from city to city, like in years…?
�VandenBosch: Yes, but not as often. The rate of people moving I think today, is something like
the every five years, the average isn’t it? At that time I don’t think it was anywhere near that,
probably once in every ten or twelve years. But we moved to Inwood and lived there for a very
short time and then we moved to Steam Minnesota, and we lived there for a very short time and
we moved Sault Center, Iowa. And that was, all these communities were not too far apart, but we
lived in Sault Center Iowa for only a very short time and my father died. See we arrived in 1920,
and in January of 1922 my father died, and he didn’t like this country. He would’ve moved back
for anything in the world.
Interviewer: Why? Do you know?
VandenBosch: Well I think for one reason was that he couldn’t find the kind of work that he was
accustomed to in the Netherlands. And it was a time of inflation, prices were skyrocketing. They
had just a little money when they came and everything was used up on just the necessary things
to start a home, and so he couldn’t find the work, I think this was mostly it. And he had
intentions of going to Chicago, finding something to do and earning enough money to go back,
but he died.
Interviewer: How, who took care of you?
VandenBosch: Well my mother was left alone of course with five of us, I was the oldest and the
neighbors were very good, they understood he was thirty-six-years-old when he died, see. So
they were sympathetic and helpful. But at the same time it was a real struggle for her. And we, I
remember that we got assistance from the county, as a widow’s pension, she got a widow’s
pension. Which was a very small pension, but it helped.
Interviewer: Well sure. How, boy in your case, how did the Depression affect you? I mean, what
really…?
VandenBosch: Well the Depression of course came a little later for us, and the height of the
Depression was just prior to the Roosevelt administration in 1932, it was when Hoover was
president and yes it affected everyone there, the farmers as well. Then I recall that when
Roosevelt was elected, the farm program at that time was that all the farmers because the price of
the meat and pork and everything was so low that all the farmers should kill all the little pigs that
they raised. And many people, there were conservative areas there, a conservative Dutch
community, and many people didn’t go along with that, and so they didn’t all participate in that
program because they couldn’t see killing these little pigs. But they did. After this became a
policy I remember that the farmer that I happened to be with, decided the following year not to
raise any pigs, that’s how he cooperated with it.
Interviewer: Boy, this is really interesting. Tell me about your experiences with World War II.
Did you serve…?
�VandenBosch: I was too young to really know what world, what? World War II? Oh, that’s
different.
Interviewer: You probably were…
VandenBosch: Well yes, I was married and we had a family then. And I was classified 3A,
because of my family and because I had worked in the defense plan. I was working at the
Winters and Crampton Company at that time, as a Precision Inspector in Grandville, Michigan.
Later on this became known as the Jervis (?) Corporation, but I worked as an inspector there.
Interviewer: Are you a member of the Dutch Immigrant Society?
VandenBosch: No I am not.
Interviewer: Oh, I just wondered. I was just curious.
Man: He was. He didn’t pay his dues.
VandenBosch: I was. I slipped, I slipped, I didn’t pay my dues and I was expelled.
Man: Yep…(muffled laugh)
Interviewer: I’m sorry I didn’t mean to…I was just…I was..
VandenBosch: No, we were just having a little fun here.
Interviewer: Do you make any trips back to the Netherlands?
VandenBosch: I never have, no I’ve never gone back, I hope sometime to get back.
Interviewer: What are your feelings about America today, as opposed, I mean do you feel any
differently as opposed to Depression times, I mean as far as any more loyalty to the Netherlands
then than you do now, or just because you’ve been, were so young and raised here, do you feel,
you don’t feel any different?
VandenBosch: Well I think that, as your parents trained you of course, you never lose that, well
that feeling for your place of birth, no matter where that is or how long you’ve departed from it,
it’s always been your place of birth and you have a certain loyalty to that. But being only eightyears-old, or seven when I arrived here you don’t have the same feeling as, for example, an older
person who has gone through all the political programs and knows more about the country than I
do.
Interviewer: Do you find any, this will kind of wind us up now I think, do you find any problems
now at all with any discrimination? Of course, nobody really knows that you’re, I mean, do you
think the Dutch right now, like for instance the members of the society, do they find any
problems?
�VandenBosch: I, I doubt it.
Interviewer: I mean accepting…
VandenBosch:I think there is a real acceptance on the part of the people of this area to the Dutch.
I think this would be true of other nationalities as well. I think there is a very good understanding
amongst the people here in that respect.
Interviewer: Very good. Thank you very much.
VandenBosch: You are welcome.
D
Depression, the · 2, 3
Dutch Immigrant Society · 3
W
Winters and Crampton Company · 3
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/64a9d667c17d048346729ff669aeedce.mp3
cb090309654996c7d6d1244abef0da02
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Various
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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application/pdf; audio/mp3
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Text; Sound
Identifier
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RHC-23
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1971 - 1977
Sound
A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-23_VandenBosch
Title
A name given to the resource
VandenBosch, Gerritt
Creator
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VandenBosch, Gerritt
Description
An account of the resource
Gerritt VandenBosch arrived in New York on Memorial Day, 1920. From there he moved to Inwood, Iowa. He discusses being a Dutch immigrant during the Depression.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Text
Sound
Format
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application/pdf
audio/mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/128a73014e7dc2064f78d7b188077d64.pdf
80aa0821e5cf63474bb4cc5f4cd6cac1
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
M.R. Bissell
Interviewed on Sept. 16, 1971
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #9 and 10: (43:22)
Biographical Information
Melville R. Bissell, Jr. was born in Grand Rapids on 7 April 1882. He was married on 29 April
1907 to Olive E. Bulkeley in Grand Rapids. Olive was the daughter of William F. Bulkeley and
Abby A. Marks natives of New York. She died on 6 August 1964 at the Bissell home at 350
Plymouth SE. Melville died on 20 December 1972 in Grand Rapids and is buried in Oak Hill
Cemetery. Melville and Olive had three daughters, Barbara, Anne and Eleanor.
His father, Melville R. Bissell, Sr. was born 25 September 1843 in Hartwick, Otsego County,
New York and died 15 March 1889 in Grand Rapids. He married Anna Sutherland on 29
November 1865 in De Pere, Wisconsin where Anna’s parents had moved to from Nova Scotia.
Anna was born 2 December 1846 in River John, Pictou County, Nova Scotia, the daughter of
William and Eleanor Sutherland. She passed away on 8 November 1934 at her home at 112
College Avenue SE, Grand Rapids. Besides Melville R., Jr., the Bissell’s were parents to
Dorothy A., Harvey S., Irving J. and a daughter, Lillie May who died at the age of seven years.
___________
Interviewer: Mr. Bissell, where did your family live in Grand Rapids?
Bissell: Originally they lived down on Sheldon Street, eighty-five Sheldon. That was the Bissell
home at that time. I was about, oh, seven years of age at that time, but I can remember it.
Interviewer: Where is eighty-five Sheldon, approximately; is the house still standing?
Bissell: The house is still standing. I can't tell you exactly where the streets are 'cause I don't
remember. Well I'll tell you, it is pretty near where, you know where the hotel is now, the hotel
on, the corner on one of those streets? I'd say it’s in the next block above the Woman's City
Club.
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
Bissell: That's where it was. We lived there until I was about seven years of age. It was in
eighty-nine or eighty-seven my father bought the house up on College Avenue; and it was fixed
up and we lived [in it] from then on. My father had caught cold and died of pneumonia at that
time, so he never lived up on College Avenue; he always lived on Sheldon Street.
Interviewer: Was your father born in Grand Rapids?
�2
Bissell: No; no he moved here. He moved here from Kalamazoo - mother and father and
grandfather moved up here. And the old house that they lived in was here for a good many
years; and now, of course, it’s got a building on it, [?across from?] St. Mark's Church. You
know where St. Mark's Church is? Well, it’s on that corner there; that was the old house that I
remember my grandmother and grandfather lived there; and we used to go there and see them.
Before that, that house was where the Post Office was. They moved that house out from the
Post Office site to build the Post Office down there - the old Post Office. You know where that
is. The house was originally built there.
Interviewer: How did your family get into the carpet sweeper business?
Bissell: Well, that's very simple; my father was in the business of china - had a china shop.
When they opened up the stuff there was a great deal of, you know, rubbish along with the
china, from the unpacking and all like that. He wanted to clean it up and he tried to get a box
and a brush that would do it. And that's the way he got started. It really started as a bare floor
proposition, but it didn't work so well on the bare floor as it did on the carpet. So, he started
making carpet sweepers. He kept right on and my mother worked right along with him and they
worked it out together.
Interviewer: When your father died, did your mother take over the business?
Bissell: Yes, she was always a business woman. Even in a lot of years when I was a young boy
growing up, she was interested in her children but she didn't want to take care of them. She had
someone take care of us and she did the business, she ran the sweeper company.
Interviewer: How long did she run that business?
Bissell: She ran it until I came along and took over.
Interviewer: When was that, sir?
Bissell: Oh, let's see; when did I start? I don't remember - a long time ago.
Interviewer: How old are you now?
Bissell: I'm nearly ninety.
Interviewer: When you lived on College Avenue, what was it like growing up there as a child?
Bissell: Well, it was fine. There was just a few houses, people had barns and had horses in them
and coachmen and everything for the horses. Automobiles; I can remember when automobiles
first came in. I knew every person that had an automobile at that time, and the make of car he
had. When you'd hear a car coming, you'd run out to the street to see it go by.
Interviewer: Do you remember the first car you ever saw?
�3
Bissell: Well, I think it was Charlie Judd’s; I think that was called the U.S. Long Distance or
something like that. I can't remember exactly the name of it.
Interviewer: Was it quite a thrill?
Bissell: Oh, I'll tell you, cars were scarce, there weren't very many of them. There weren't
probably more than three or four cars in Grand Rapids. People tried to make them, you know.
They'd take a light carriage and try to put a motor in it, connect it up; that wasn't very
satisfactory, though. They had to start and build them up from the beginning to really run.
Interviewer: Were there any people manufacturing cars here then?
Bissell: Well, Austin was the only car man that was making cars here. They were shipping them
in from Detroit and so forth. But, Austin was the only one making them, the Austin, and that
was a very good car and it was a large car. We had one and my wife's family had one and they
were good cars. But of course it had the Planetary System; they didn't have a gear shift. You
know what a Planetary System is? Well, it's a set of gears down under the foot boards of the car
that run there; and they throw a lever on, that is sort of like a brake, and they run through that.
Interviewer: Why did they call it the Planetary System?
Bissell: I don't know. That was the way they did it at that time; that's the only kind of cars that
were running at all, didn't have gear systems. Of course, the cars were [had] two sitting in front
and then you went around in the back and got in through a door that was about that wide, just
big enough to get through, and sat in there and sort of on an angle like this or like that. This was
the door here, and they shut this, and then they had another little door that dropped down so you
could sit on the door. You could take five people.
Interviewer: What was the reaction of horses to the first cars?
Bissell: Well, they didn't like them; they didn't like them, I shouldn't say that. They were scared
of them, of course they made quite a noise and they were scared of them. The regulations were
that if you were in a car coming, you had to slow down for horses; if they shied or showed any
scaredness, you had to stop. And, in fact, once in a while you had to get out and lead the horse
past the car.
Interviewer: What was it like living on College Avenue in those days? I mean, what was the
style of living like?
Bissell: Well, it was very quiet in there. When we bought this house we even lived in it at that
time the house was being fixed up. The house had been there for a long time. It was built, I
think, by Foster of Foster and Stevens. [In the 1868 city directory, Wilder D. Foster’s residence
was listed as 7 College-av. It was also described as located on the east side of College-av.
between Fulton and Rose – Rose being Cherry street at that time.] Originally we lived there in
his house. It was built in two sections, the first section had the back that was mostly wood and
the next section was a brick section. Mother, when I was a boy about eight or nine years old,
�4
ripped off the back and built a section of brick in there for the house. We had one tub, bath tub,
that was downstairs and in a little room off the hall and this was where we took our baths and
had some kind of a heater in there, run by gas and that would heat up the water for you. We
took our Saturday night baths there.
Interviewer: Were there many children in the neighborhood when you were growing up?
Bissell: Oh yes, quite a lot of them. Fred Pantlind, Ralph Voigt -Ralph Voigt lived directly
across the street from us. I knew Ralph Voigt very well. There was a boy who lived in that
small brick house right next to or three houses over from the Voigt's. I can't think of his name
now, but I used to play with him all the time. And later on when Fred Pantlind was born, they
came over and had a house right next to ours.
Interviewer: Did the families interact as well as the children? Did the families have activities
together?
Bissell: Oh yes, my mother was a widow and so she always had somebody with her. She had
her sister a great deal with her, her niece and people that lived there with her so as to be with
her because she didn't want to live alone. Of course, they did some bossing of the children
because we were pretty young at that time.
Interviewer: Did your mother attend parties that were given within society?
Bissell: Oh, yes, she would go to some of the parties that were given. Of course Kent Country
Club was in this house. This is the old club house. Kent Country Club was organized here
originally, it was a boat club, and a tennis club, and everything, and finally got into a golf club.
I think golf is [an] all the way around game here you know, when I was a boy.
Interviewer: Was it a very good course?
Bissell: Well, not good in the way the clubs are now, but it was all right.
Interviewer: Was golf a relatively new game at that time?
Bissell: Very. I'll tell you how golf started here. Mr. Blodgett or somebody went abroad, and
saw golf, and bought a set of clubs and brought them back here. Everybody that played golf
used that set of clubs. Then of course they had to make more of them and everybody had their
own sets.
Interviewer: You were just talking about Wealthy Street.
Bissell: Wealthy was originally right straight through into Reed's Lake, I mean Fisk Lake. Of
course, there wasn't any way for us but to go back that way and go along that [?] road. You
know where Mrs. Avery lives out there on Plymouth? [Corner of Plymouth and Lake Drive]
Well, that was the toll gate for this district. That was a toll road and that was the road that went
out to our farm and to Reed's Lake. And then the [Mr.] Hanchett came along and wanted to get
�5
out to Reed's Lake with his cars - streetcars - and so they had to curve around here to get to
around the lake.
Interviewer: So, instead of Wealthy Street ending up at Fisk Lake, they changed the road so it
ended up at Reed's Lake?
Bissell: Yes. Of course first it was a dummy line. Then they got the streetcars running out there.
Then you’ve got Ramona and all in there.
Interviewer: Did you buy this house?
Bissell Yes.
Interviewer: How long have you lived here?
Bissell: About forty years.
Interviewer: When you bought this house, was this all developed out here like this?
Bissell: It is exactly how it was, and the way this house was. I imagine I'd made some
improvements on it. I built that window there. It went right from the post there and right across
on the other side of house, I built a porch over there, of course, but as far as the grounds is
concerned and the house itself, why it is exactly as it was before. It's a three story house and it
was the Kent Country Club. They used to play golf here and they played golf all around here.
All these places around here, they played golf on.
Interviewer: When you bought this house, did you buy it as a residence, or did you buy it as a
farm?
Bissell: No, I bought it as a residence. Mr. Hanchett owned it. And he used it as a home and it
was originally brick. It was plastered and I think Hanchett took that off and fixed it up.
Interviewer: Did Hanchett have his own private streetcar to take him downtown to work in the
morning?
Bissell: He had a private car that was run on the street here. He used it as, not as just going
downtown, but he used it to have parties on. He'd pick you up downtown and take you out to
Reed's Lake and they would have a party; and it was an open car and he had a driver and it was
run by electricity. The open cars were very nice; I've been on it. He went downtown, down
Monroe Street and right down a few times to Ottawa Beach. When they did that, they put one
of the drivers on that ran the electrical cars down there, 'cause they knew the route and they
wouldn't run too fast and control it.
Interviewer: You mentioned that up there at the corner of Plymouth and Lake Drive where Mrs.
Avery lives there was a toll road there?
�6
Bissell: There was a toll gate there.
Interviewer: Where did the toll road go?
Bissell: [The road] went right out that street there, you know where the ___ that section of the
[?] houses right out that way; that’s where our farm was. That’s where they used to go out,
drive out to the farm, out that street.
Interviewer: Where was your farm located, Mr. Bissell?
Bissell: Right out the street there.
Interviewer: Plymouth?
Bissell: No, not Plymouth, but . . .
Interviewer: Lake Drive?
Bissell: ... Lake Drive. It ran right out there on, about three or four miles. Of course, we had to
pay toll when we went out on the line.
Interviewer: How much was the toll?
Bissell: Well, I'll tell you. My father made arrangements with the toll gate; he paid them so
much a year and all the Bissell’s who had cottages and could come out there and so there was
no toll. I paid no toll. When I was a young boy, I had some fellows I knew and I would take
them out in the carriage out to the farm. I'd say: 'Now we're going past the toll gate, now get
down there and we'll run it; and they would. I'd whip the horse up a bit and get across fast and
run through the toll gate. As long as we could make it, it was all right. There [was] [apparently
referring to a map] the hospital property, this property and [?] across the street on both sides.
Originally, they cut down this bank over here for Wealthy and they run [sic] it right into the
lake. Of course we couldn't have the streetcars go through the lake so they had to curve around
right up here [pointing on a map?]. Ben Hanchett was really behind getting that curve in there,
because he was running the street railway.
Interviewer: When Mr. Hanchett moved out of this house, did he move off of College Avenue?
Bissell: He didn't live down there then. He didn't live here until long after that.
Interviewer: Long after he'd....[?]
Bissell: He didn't live on College Avenue for a long, long time. That was a few years. He had
his horses here, and there was a barn there. He had two or three horses and used to ride
downtown, and that was the only way to get downtown, at that time, was to ride down in a
carriage. When the streetcar was put in, like that, why lots of people would go down on the
streetcar.
�7
Interviewer: When you were growing up on College Avenue, what did the young people do for
entertainment?
Bissell: Oh, I don't know, they used to have shows of different kinds. They put on shows down
at the opera house.
Interviewer: Were there many dances and things like that?
Bissell: Oh yes, we had dances and especially at Christmas time when the schools were all out
and we were all home. My mother used to have dances for me and my friends and some of the
other people did too. We generally had them in the St. Cecilia or the old Armory which is
across from the depot.
Interviewer: The old railroad station?
Bissell: The old railroad station; the depot there.
Interviewer: Where did you go away to school?
Bissell: I went to the Gunnery first, and that was in Washington, Connecticut. I was there two
or three years, and then after that I went to a small school in (Suffern, New York for a few
years. And then, later on, I went to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, New York. I didn't
graduate from there.
Interviewer: You didn't graduate from there?
Bissell: No, I just quit; I was there two years.
Interviewer: And then you came back to Grand Rapids?
Bissell: That's in Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: Oh! What was the name of the school?
Bissell: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.
Interviewer: What kind of a school was it?
Bissell: That was in Troy, New York. It was a technical school and engineering school. They
taught engineering and, believe me, you had to have some mathematics to stay in that place. I
never had so much mathematics till I got into that.
Interviewer: Are you a member of any clubs here in town?
�8
Bissell: Oh, several clubs. The Kent Country Club, of course, was started long before I was a
member of it, but my mother was a member of it and I had the privilege of using it in her name
until I got out of college, and then I became a member of the country club.
Interviewer: When did the University Club come into being?
Bissell: Oh, quite a long time ago, but not very long ago as far as years are concerned.
Interviewer: What about the Peninsular Club?
Bissell: The Peninsular Club was going when I got out of high school and that had been going
for a long time. I'm number one man down at the Peninsular Club.
Interviewer: Now?
Bissell: Now. That means that I have lived a great many years, longest of anybody in the club
and that I got a membership. I became a member in, I think, about ought-six[1906]. I've
continued that membership the longest of anybody in it, so I'm number one man; and my
brother was number two man. He died and then Heber Curtis, I think, came in there number
three. I don't know what the numbers are now. It makes no difference as far as [?] are
concerned, it's just an interesting thing being number one man at the country club or any club.
Interviewer: I heard a story about your mother - when she died - her last words. What were her
last words?
Bissell: I don't know.
Interviewer: Someone told me her last words were, “I am glad.” Someone said those were her
last words.
Bissell: No, I don't know. Now that might have been so, I don't know.
Interviewer: When you were running the factory, were the furniture companies going full steam
then?
Bissell: They were going full steam then. They have let down since then; and there are some
manufacturing companies that used to be here. There used to be a lot of them. Huge and small
ones, but . ? . Royal and. Berkey and Gay, a . . and, oh, dozens of them. They've all gone.
Interviewer: Did many of those men who ran those big manufacturing plants live around you in
your neighborhood?
Bissell: Oh, they lived all over town. See, then, by that time we had streetcars all over town and
they'd go back and forth to the business on the streetcar.
Interviewer: Before the streetcars what did they have?
�9
Bissell: Oh, they had carriages; and some men, I know one man, he was a lawyer in town, he
liked horses and he used to ride horseback down from his house. Of course, then you had horses
right in your barn, you see, and he used to ride downtown horseback and then put his horse in
the stable down there and then ride back again.
Interviewer: Was that a very common practice for men?
Bissell: No, no. But he did that for years because he liked horses and he wanted to ride so he
did it that way.
Interviewer: What was downtown like in those days?
Bissell: It was like all the other small towns around here. Monroe Street was the big shopping
street and all the stores were down there and the grocery stores and meat markets and a few
shops and all the things were down there. A little later on, at the corner down here why they got
a few stores in there.
Interviewer: Down on Wealthy and Lake Drive?
Bissell: Down Wealthy, yeah, and a few on Reed’s Lake. When I was a boy, the city ended at
Eastern Avenue. That was the end of the city. It was just country after that and then they kept
gradually going out further and further and further and so they got out to Wealthy and whatever
that street is down there.
Interviewer: Where did you spend your summers?
Bissell: I spent my summers right here; and I'd go down to Ottawa Beach for awhile and I used
to know pretty near everybody there. I was next door to Charlie Judd's, who was a man with the
company. He lived there and had a cottage there; and he had a boat - that was a launch - on
Black Lake there. We used to go down there. It was great coming in there in a launch, 'course it
was old-fashioned . . . (?)launch which was different from any other different kinds. They
weren't very fast but they were quite powerful. We used to ride all over Black Lake there with
it.
Interviewer: Were steamers coming in there from Chicago?
Bissell: Yes, particularly they came in there every Friday night and go back Sunday night.
People would come over on that from Chicago and stay here over the weekend and go back
Sunday night. Yes, there was a line of steamers going then. Some of them would stop at some
of these other places on the way down and pick up a load of fruit or something like that, and
carry it over to Chicago. But there was one landing in there pretty near every night.
Interviewer: Were there always dams in the Grand River? Can you remember the Grand River
ever being without dams?
�10
Bissell: No, I think there were quite a number of them. They did a lot of work on it and they
tried to running their steamboats up and down carrying freight and all that, and passengers, but
they didn't. There wasn't enough to. They were always running ashore, and it wasn't very deep
and it wasn't very good.
Interviewer: What was the most memorable experience from the time you were growing up?
What's the thing you remember most?
Bissell: Oh I don't know. I lived here all my life, I was born here and I lived here until I was
grown up - in the town. I went to school in the East, and I came back to Grand Rapids and took
a job in the company. Besides that I went out in the plant and learned how to make carpet
sweepers and do those things and learned all about it and I worked up from the bottom until I
finally became president.
Interviewer: Do you think there are any differences between the way men conducted their
business in those days compared to the way they conduct their businesses today?
Bissell: Oh yes, there's a lot of difference. Everything is a lot more technical now. Of course the
telephone and telegraph came in, we had them when I was a boy but not as strong as they are
now, they weren't as big. They didn't use it as much then. Some men do a big business on the
telephone now, on the cable - Western Union. Things are entirely different, everything's more
technical.
Interviewer: What do you think was the more preferable age to live in, the age when you were a
young man or the age today?
Bissell: Well, it depends on what you want. Now it's probably very mild compared to what it
was then because everything then... [?] For instance, Mr. Hanchett lived out in this house here,
ran the street railway and we had the streetcars to go on. I lived on College Avenue before I was
married, why I used to walk down Monroe Street, the whole length. I walked down from my
house on Washington Street, down to Monroe Street and back - sometimes twice a day, in the
morning and the afternoon. Of course they had Power's Theatre and they had shows down
there; and companies came in and stayed here and put on a different show every week. There
was Reed's Lake with all the amusements in it and it was, well you could hardly get on a
streetcar. They would have two or three cars would wait up there, about time the theatre was
getting out in the evening, and take the people into town. That was the only way they had
getting out there. Of course when the automobile came in, why they could go by a car.
Interviewer: Was that when the streetcar started to dissolve, when the automobile came in?
Bissell: Well, it didn't progress like it had before, because people had cars. It made a big
difference then because if they wanted to go to the lake, why they would go out in their car, and
a lot of them did. There weren't as many cars, of course, and the streetcars were crowded
coming in at night after the show. People wanted to get home. It'd probably take four or five car
loads to take them and get them out of there. It would be jammed full. It was pretty bad
sometimes when it rained and then at that time, why there was open cars. They took the closed
�11
cars off in the summertime and put on open cars. Those were run across like that [gesture?] and
there was a row of people here and have a row in here and another row in here. It was one of
our amusements in those days to take a streetcar ride in the evening, in a hot evening, to cool
off. We'd go out to North Park and then perhaps stay a little while there, and get a soda water or
something like that and get on and come into Grand Rapids again.
Interviewer: Was the Grand River used at all in those days for entertainment or for boating
events?
Bissell: Not very much, not very much. The Grand River wasn't very deep, you know. They had
some little boats and there were a few quicker, motor boats. Motors weren't very plentiful in
those days. They were noisy and dirty.
Interviewer: I think that is good enough, don't you?
Bissell: That's about all I can tell you.
Interviewer: Okay.
INDEX
A
H
Avery, Mrs. · 5, 6
Hanchett, Mr. · 5, 6, 10
B
J
Bissell, Anna Sutherland (Mother) · 2, 4, 7, 8
Bissell, Melville R. Sr. (Father) · 1, 2, 6
Black Lake · 9
Blodgett, Mr. · 4
Judd, Charlie · 3, 9
C
Curtis, Heber · 8
F
Fisk Lake · 5
Foster and Stevens Company · 3
G
Grand River · 10, 11
K
Kent Country Club · 4, 5, 8
O
Ottawa Beach · 6, 9
P
Pantlind, Fred · 4
Peninsular Club · 8
�12
R
V
Reed's Lake · 5, 9, 10
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute · 7
Voigt, Ralph · 4
S
W
Woman's City Club · 1
St. Mark's Church · 2
U
University Club · 8
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aa3ac7df7c42608ff7abc5a2f88a111a.mp3
b09e66ac6d8b7a88b524e0593d1cce00
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Title
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
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Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
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Various
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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eng
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RHC-23
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1971 - 1977
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RHC-23_9-10Bissell
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Bissell, M.R.
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Bissell, M.R.
Description
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M.R. Bissell was born on April 7, 1882 in Grand Rapids. His father (M.R. Sr.) invented the Bissell Carpet Sweeper. The Bissell Carpet Sweeper Company was established in 1883. When Mr. Bissell's father died prematurely, his mother took his place running the business. M. R. Bissell, Jr. attended Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in New York for two years but did not graduate. He returned to Grand Rapids to run the business, and became a member of the Kent Country Club, the Peninsular Club, and the University Club. He died December 20, 1972.
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
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Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
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1971
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c3f2d6de6e0228304703e3a56816b4a3.pdf
63d8cd6af7b13791af21949f96b77216
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mrs. Richard Meade
Interviewed on September 15, 1971
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #7, 8 (1:15:27)
Biographical Information
Mary Alice Martin was born 27 April 1897 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She died on 20 August
1982 in East Grand Rapids. Her parents were John B. Martin, born January 1867 in Grand
Rapids, Michigan, and Althea Winchester, born March 1867 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. John
and Althea were married in Grand Rapids on 11 October 1894. John was the son of Joseph H.
Martin and Mary Alice Lantsberry, both born in England. Althea was the daughter of Samuel
Alexander Winchester and Rebecca Bailey, both from New Hampshire.
Mary Alice Martin married Henry C. Robinson about 1926. As her second husband she married
Richard Hardaway Meade on 30 November 1946. Richard was the son of Richard Hardaway
Meade, Jr. and Eleanor Prior “Nellie” Atkins and he was born 10 May 1897 in Richmond,
Henrico County, Virginia. Richard died 5 February 1993 in Grand Rapids. Mary Alice Martin
Meade died 20 August 1982 at her home in East Grand Rapids.
A finding aid for the Bartholomew Plan mentioned in this interview can be seen at
http://www.grpl.org/wiki/images/c/cd/115.pdf
___________
Interviewer: Mrs. Meade, you just mentioned that your grandfather came here in eighteen fiftytwo. Where did he come from and why did he come to this area?
Mrs. Meade: My grandfather Martin came here in eighteen fifty-two. He originally came from
England and he came from Southampton, as far as we know. He and another family came over
and then went to Elyria, Ohio. We don‟t know exactly why he came to Grand Rapids from
Elyria, but he did come and there are many stories about his coming. Apparently he had a horse
and a wagon and he went to Chicago and before they came over, the horse fell overboard and my
grandfather jumped in after him and pulled him by his tail and got him back on the ship, but
anyway, they finally arrived in Grand Rapids. Originally I think he went in to the grocery store
business because in old pictures I have seen of Grabs Corners, you could see there was a sign
Joseph H. Martin. I think he started out probably as a grocer and then little by little he became
interested in real estate and he also had a brother named Uncle Thomas. And he and his brother
were very much interested in the Plank Road that went to Kalamazoo. At one point, as you
�2
probably know, they thought the railroad was coming to Grand Rapids and then afterwards they
decided it was going to Kalamazoo so many people in Grand Rapids sold their land because they
thought it was never going to develop. And they developed this road to Kalamazoo where they‟d
take, I suppose loads and things to ship and my grandfather helped with the regular freight line I
think. And then eventually, the railroad came to Grand Rapids so that road was no longer
important. But it was important at that time and then he went into the real estate business and
then he became a banker. He was on the first board of, I think you call it the Old National Bank
at that time when Harvey Hollister was the president. I can go back that far. Harvey Hollister and
my grandfather were great friends and even took a trip abroad and I have some of their letters
and diaries from that trip. So he lived here and he married a Mary Alice Lantsberry. The
Lantsberry family came over from England with the Martin family then they went to Elyria and
the Lantsberry family also came to Grand Rapids. And he married one of the daughters and I‟m
not sure but I think his brother married one of the other daughters. But anyway, I am named after
my, I am named Mary Alice Martin because of my grandmother‟s name became Mary Alice
Martin, she was a Lantsberry. Their graves are out here in the little old cemetery on Fulton Street
and my great grandfather is also buried there, Peter Martin and his wife and that‟s where most of
the old families are buried over there you‟ll see all of the graves. My grandfather on mother‟s
side was Samuel Winchester. And his family, the Winchester family came to this country much
earlier way back in the sixteen hundreds. They came to Boston and that family is a very large
family, you find the name Winchester throughout the country. Winchester Arms is part of that
family, Winchester, Massachusetts was named after one of the Winchesters; and I have the
history of that whole family. But my particular branch came, my grandfather‟s father I think was
a minister and he went from Boston then to Ashburnham, Massachusetts then to Keene, New
Hampshire and they lived up there for some time. They were farming families and they must
have been interested in furniture making and my grandfather‟s -this is particularly interesting to
Grand Rapids - my grandfather‟s sister Mary married old C.C. Comstock who is very much
involved in the history of Grand Rapids. He also came from Keene, New Hampshire or that area
and they came out here. She had tuberculosis and for some reason they felt that going west,
would help her. So they did come west and they finally ended in Grand Rapids and I should be
able to tell you the number of children, but they had two or three children. One was Mrs. [Mary
Ella Comstock] Konkle and I‟m sure Fran Russell could tell you all this because she died finally
and then Comstock married again and he married Fran Russell‟s grandmother and his mother and
Mrs. Boltwood were the children from that marriage so in a way Fran and I are related.
Interviewer: Mr. Russell is one of the people we are going to be interviewing.
Mrs. Meade: Oh, you must interview him because he has wonderful diaries, written by old C.C.
Comstock and the old building, there‟s still a little old office building one that they show when
they take people on that tour from museum. That little office building is still down there.
Interviewer: Is that supposedly the oldest building still standing in the city?
�3
Mrs. Meade: No, not the law office. No, but this is another building. It‟s on lower Monroe, but
kind of quite a ways out. The day I went on this tour they pointed that out and I never knew that
myself. C.C. Comstock had a lot to do with it. My grandfather Winchester and his brothers
started, I think the first furniture factories here but they didn‟t do very well with it and his
brother-in-law Comstock had to buy them out and that furniture factory I think originally, or
eventually became the factory that‟s called Nelson-Matter which was a famous well known
factory in the earlier days. I may be a little mixed up on these facts but this is the way I
remember it.
Interviewer: When did the Winchester branch of the family come to Grand Rapids?
Mrs. Meade: Well, I can‟t really tell you, I ought to be able to but I can‟t really tell you but I
think it was after my grandfather Martin came here.
Interviewer: Did they come because they were interested in furniture?
Mrs. Meade: Well, no they didn‟t, I think partly, but they also came because C.C. Comstock‟s
wife Mary was a sister and she wrote back and said this is a fine place to come and would be a
good place for making furniture and so forth and that‟s why I think they were interested in
coming. I think it was a little bit later and I can find that fact out for you I think if I search back
in some of these.
Interviewer: Your grandfather Martin, they had some children and your father was who?
Mrs. Meade: My father was John B. Martin and they had, I ought to be able to tell you, they had
about five children and three little boys, three of their children and one little girl died at a very
early age, all of them buried over here in the cemetery. My father and my aunt Martha lived and
my Aunt Martha married a clergyman and her name was Mrs. Thorton B. Penfield and she went
to live in the East and always lived there and there are great many children. I mean, she had 3
children there was quite a large family from her family and my father and my mother. My father
married a Winchester, my mother‟s name was Althea Winchester and there were four of us, three
boys and myself.
Interviewer: What did your father do, John B. Martin?
Mrs. Meade: He went into business with my grandfather. My grandfather worked so hard as
young man and as he grew up, also he lost his wife at a very early age and he didn‟t marry again
for quite a long time and when my father came back from being away at school, he was sent east
to Andover. I‟m mixing this all up, I‟m afraid, but anyway my father because he had no mother
they were both sent away to school and my father to Andover and the he was to go to Yale. In
the meantime, he went to school in Brooklyn and he met, well his best friend was a boy named
Irving Bush. His father was Irving Bush, who built the Bush Terminals in Brooklyn and if you
have lived down there and know New York at all, they were the big place where they brought
�4
freight in and everything. His father had overworked and they told him he had to take a year off
and not do anything. So he built a yacht and the yacht was called the Coronet. I‟ve grown up on
these stories. He told his boy of his that he could invite one of his friends to go with him on this
trip and they would be gone a year and they were going around the world. My father was invited
at the age of eighteen and he asked his father, my grandfather, Joseph Martin, said you may go
take this trip or you can go to college but you have to choose one or the other. So naturally he
took the trip around the world. I have all the diaries of that trip and it was the most amazing trip.
It was the first private yacht that ever as far as anybody knows that had gone around the world.
He went around in great fashion. A hundred and twenty foot yacht, a crew of I don‟t know how
many. My father had the most marvelous time in the world and we were all brought up on the
stories of this trip. Especially about China and Japan and the Far East, that was what interested
him the most and many of the things you see in this room, he brought back. The bronzes and
things, my father at the age eighteen brought those things back. He had enough sensitivity, I
don‟t think he knew a thing about them, but he did buy and bring back these lovely things and
we grew up on this trip, so I‟ll show you why this ties in eventually. When he got back, he
couldn‟t go to college because he wasn‟t supposed to but my grandfather was almost worn out
and so he had to give up business and in the meantime he married again a lovely person, the only
one I ever knew as my grandmother, her name was Rose Brooks and he married her. So he was
in and out of the business, more or less retired and father just took over. It was, how do I say it,
mortgages and loans and things like that. For instance, if somebody came and many, many
people like the Dutch and the Italians, people like that who came and needed a little money that
has nothing to do with the bank and borrow money you know that had no collateral or anything,
they‟d come to father or my grandfather and they would loan them enough to get started. Mr.
Russo got started that way, that Italian. A great many of the people that I have met since have
said to me “Oh, your grandfather, your father were the ones that helped us.” He loaned them
enough to get started and eventually they got into different kinds of business and particularly
banking. My father, you know was Vice President of the bank changed names so no longer the
old Grand Rapids Savings and it became Peoples Bank, but my grandfather was on the board of
the Old National which is now Old Kent Bank and my son Oliver is now in the Union Bank so
we‟re all mixed up in banks. Well, I probably have not told you what you wanted to know,
branching off here.
Interviewer: No. That‟s good I like to find out background about how families arrived in Grand
Rapids. Where did you grow up as a child?
Mrs. Meade: I grew up, I was born in Grand Rapids; I was born right on Madison Avenue, fivefifteen Madison Avenue. And I grew (up) in that house on Madison. We were all born there and
we all grew up there. We loved it, it was a wonderful house. It‟s in the Heritage Hill area and it
was a house that was built by I think his name was Stockwell and I think he was related to the
Belknaps. I think he was either a son-in-law or something, but he married a Belknap and built
that house. And after two or three years he sold it or wanted to sell it and my grandfather bought
�5
it for my mother and father and gave it to them, for a wedding present. My mother nearly died,
if you could go see it, it‟s a huge house with the ceilings ten and-twelve feet. To just even curtain
one window, was expensive to let alone all this. Anyway this was a gift, so they lived there and
little by little they furnished it and my grandfather and grandmother would come back part of the
year and live with them. They had a room, we had one big living room and then another room
and a bath that was my grandfather‟s and grandmother‟s. We all grew up [with] one bathroom
upstairs, plenty of bedrooms, but one bathroom. I can see it now, it was all lined with tin and
eventually it was very, very sophisticated because we got one of these things called geyser and
we got gas finally and you know you could light it then it heated it. You‟re too young to
remember this it would [heat] the water and then it was nice hot baths. The house had lots of
fireplaces; oh it was a beautiful house to grow up in. We had lovely times and gatherings.
Interviewer: What was the neighborhood like?
Mrs. Meade: Oh, the neighborhood was a lovely neighborhood; all my friends lived up and down
the whole Madison Avenue. We all went to school at Lafayette school down there. Now it has
been rebuilt, but that was the school, dandy school.
Interviewer: You went to the public schools then?
Mrs. Meade: Oh yes, we all went to the public school. There was a private school here, but I
don‟t know, I was never sent to it. Some of my friends were, but I thought we had a wonderful
education, there were marvelous teachers. Then from there we went up to what we called Central
Grammar and that was up, I suppose it was like the Junior High school but it was one year we
had in this school and it is no longer there, but it was right back where the old high school is
now. Not Central but the other one over there on Ransom or something. I don‟t know what they
call it now, a big old building up there and that was the high school and we went to a school right
back of that called Central, Central Grammar. From there I went to the new high school which
was Central up on Fountain and I don‟t know what other high school [was] but formerly it was
that other high school. I‟ll tell you something we used to do. Where we lived, there was a little
bit of pavement, in front of our house and from then on there was nothing but dirt roads and we
had a great big barn which is now burned down. I haven‟t been down to look at but it‟s burned
down. We always had horses, my father was a great horseman; he loved horses. He always had a
saddle horse and we always had ponies. Across from us on Madison Avenue, at that point, there
was nothing between Madison Avenue and College Avenue, it was all open territory. There was
no Morris Avenue at all. We had a big field there that we kept our cow in and our pony and our
horse. You won‟t believe this but we did. And my father was very interested in farming till the
day he died we had a farm. And every summer the entire Martin family would get into a carriage
before we had cars, or eventually when we had cars, and we had our first farm out near
Plainfield. If you go out the new Beltline, it was called Peach Ridge or Peach something, but it
was where Mr. [O. W.] Braman‟s farm and our farm was [Section 35, Plainfield Township]. We
had peaches and fruit and everything else. We built a cottage, a house out there and it is still
�6
standing there. We would have these Dutch families come over to work on the farm and my
father brought over any number of these families and the children would work, you see for their
father. Father never paid them but any way they‟d work on these farms until eventually they got
enough money so they could buy the farm. One of these farmers bought that farm from my
father. Then we bought another farm which we still own a little bit of land out here near Ada, the
Alta Dale farm, which is now called the Holiday farm.
Interviewer: Is that the one that is now owned by the Crawfords?
Mrs. Meade: Yes, that was our farm; it only had two ownerships before my father got it. One
belonged to Rix Robinson; he owned all that land from where our farm began all the way to Ada.
Then Philo Fuller, who was one of the former mayors of Grand Rapids, owned it for many years
and then my father bought it. It was four or five hundred acres. It went all along the river, very
rich bottom land. We had a dairy farm and then we had a grain farm. It was not a fruit farm; the
other farm was a fruit farm. I grew up on the farm at Peach Ridge, but that isn‟t quite it, out there
[It was called the High Lands (1907)]. When I was about ten we bought this other farm and we
all went out there to live. The first year we all lived in tents, we camped on top of this hill we
still own. We still own this place. The war came along although they had plans to build a house
and you couldn‟t build in those days. They wanted everybody to have War Gardens. You are too
young to remember this, but we all thought this was a fine idea to be patriotic. We hired a farmer
and I got all these girls, I was in Vassar at that point and I got all these girls from college to come
out and some of them from here, ten or twelve of us and we all lived in a big tent out there.
Father and Mother put up just a little tiny place where they could sleep and we could have a
kitchen and dining room where we could all eat. We had a War Garden and we had a great fun
along with the war I guess. Eventually they added on to that and eventually I built a house out
there. Father‟s finally burned down many years later and my house is still standing but is slightly
going to pieces I think. We still own that hill top.
Interviewer: Do you still use that cottage you have out there?
Mrs. Meade: I don‟t. My brother Joe, do you know my brother Joe?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. Meade: Well, he‟s a great naturalist and he‟s always loved country and knows everything
about birds and everything else, so he used it as a sanctuary. He has the Audubon Society out and
everybody goes out and we go out of course and picnic and things like that. We have a place
down by the lake now so that I haven‟t used that cottage.
Interviewer: Yes, I grew up right in back of your brother.
Mrs. Meade: You did?
Interviewer: I used to be over there all the time; we used to be down…..
�7
Mrs. Meade: You mean on Cambridge?
Interviewer: On Plymouth.
Mrs. Meade: He has trouble with his eyes and he hasn‟t been able to do much. It‟s been pitiful
because he has such interest in things like that.
Interviewer: He‟s a great photographer.
Mrs. Meade: He is a great photographer and he has more hobbies and could do more things with
his hands; nobody in the else in the family could do anything but he can. He‟s marvelous with
children but he has used that a lot. And we still own the hilltop which is by far the nicest part.
When we got it, there wasn‟t a thing on it. There had been marvelous trees and marvelous forest
there and someone that I talked to one time, remembered when it was forested then they cut it all
off so when we got it there were no trees on top. Father had this old Mr. (?) well, he was the first
landscape man, hmm; this shows I‟m getting old here. Anyway, we imported, he imported
everything. In those days you couldn‟t buy all these shrubs and things in this country so he
imported something like twenty thousand shrubs and trees for that place. There are all sort of
unusual things on that twenty acres that we had where houses were. They used to come up from
Lansing and all over. He was very interested in different kind of conifers and we have a lot of
them. The birch trees in there are European Birch and the most beautiful trees. Our birch don‟t
last the way these do. Mr. [Mathias] Alten, the painter used to come out and paint those Birch
trees. You go in there sometime it‟s really beautiful.
Interviewer: I will, I know where that is.
Mrs. Meade: I‟m afraid we haven‟t kept it up lately because we haven‟t been able to get
anybody to do anything.
Interviewer: Did many of the families in your neighborhood and in the Hill District have farms
in the country like that? Summer retreats?
[Audio gets bad here 26:00]
Mrs. Meade: Well, I don‟t know many, I can think of for instance the Wilcox family. This place
right over here was the Wilcox farm. Where, do you know which was Mrs. Wilcox‟s house? The
original house is one that what‟s his name lives in, you know, the man who owns that motel.
Interviewer: You mean the large house that sits in off the road right near the quad where they
have the swimming pool? I know the house is for sale but I don‟t know who bought it. He owns
a motel?
Mrs. Meade: He owned that townhouse thing. He and someone else have an interest in that. I
don‟t know why I can‟t think of his name. That‟s the original Wilcox house, farm house they‟ve
done a lot to it but it was a farm house and this area was farm land. My family was always
�8
interested and I don‟t know why particularly because I don‟t think they came from farming
families in England but they were just interested. [For] my father it was a great hobby. Up to the
day he died, he was getting up to ride his horse at the age of eighty-nine when he died, he had a
stroke. So he was always interested in farming.
Interviewer: That sounds like George Welsh. He was riding till he was eighty-five.
Mrs. Meade: I knew George; he didn‟t die, did he?
Interviewer: No, I said up until he was eighty-five.
Mrs. Meade: Oh, I knew George, so did my father. He put me on the Planning Commission in
Grand Rapids at one point. If this wasn‟t a tape recording, I‟d tell you the rest of the story. I
always had a great deal of admiration for him as well as not approving for some of the things. I
think that he was very, never made a nickel out politics. I think he was very honest in that respect
and I think he saw what was happening to Grand Rapids and when he went to Boston, he saw the
problem of parking that they were having in Boston. He came back to Grand Rapids and he
immediately began to push for people having parking lots and buying up areas that weren‟t being
used and making parking possible. He was certainly the one that decided that we had to have
planning in Grand Rapids and my father had been chairman of the Planning Commission for
many years and they had done in the beginning a good job when they had some money. Little by
little, they [had] practically no money. He saw the importance of planning and that Ken Welsh
became the chairman of it and asked me to be on and some others. We got a good planning
commission and he backed us right to the hilt on everything we did. I have very high feelings
towards him. He did some things I didn‟t think were right too and I told him that but anyway by
in large.
Interviewer: Did anybody plan Heritage Hill out?
Mrs. Meade: I have the earliest plans here. All of that area was studied; I don‟t think as it
developed, how it was developed, that it was planned… I know the first plans were nineteen
eight, probably. There was a plan before the Bartholomew plan. And I have that plan. Then there
was the Bartholomew Plan which was about [nineteen] twenty-seven. Then when we took in (it?)
about nineteen forty-three I think it was, that plan was rolled up in the attic in the city hall. On
the other hand, I think if it had been effective in some ways and it was good planning for the
period.
Interviewer: Was this the plan for the Heritage Hill area?
Mrs. Meade: Well, no.
Interviewer: Or was this a plan for the city?
�9
Mrs. Meade: This was a plan for the city, it wasn‟t just Heritage Hill. Heritage Hill was
probably part of it but it wasn‟t. I think they probably have those plans at the library. I don‟t
think Heritage Hill was planned as such it just grew up to a certain point. Then there was a great
deal of interest of planning in the early days when they saw the way Philadelphia was developing
and New York and so forth. I can remember my father got very interested in the fact that we
should do something here. They brought in the planners and but the trouble was then no one
realized that planning was and everyday process and that couldn‟t just have someone do a plan
and then go off. It has to be brought into operation.
[32:40 the Audio clears up]
Interviewer: Why does Heritage Hill have such a diversity of architectural style?
Mrs. Meade: I‟m very interested in domestic architecture because I do think it reveals the history
of a city and when it developed and I think for instance if you will notice southern Michigan and
Northern Ohio, you find a great many houses that are similar to the houses you find in the east,
the early American houses. The reason for that is I think that after the war many of those men
were given land out in this area and many of them wanted to build the same type of houses that
they were very familiar with and I think that is one reason for many of those early American
houses and for Greek Revival there. Up here we were a little bit later in developing, from
eighteen thirty-seven on and where as you get a few Greek Revival houses, now the Greek
Revival period was from about eighteen twenty till about eighteen fifty. You get such as the Dix
House for instance and there are other houses here that were purely Greek Revival. Then Grand
Rapids was a little bit later and we went into the Victorian Era and we went into, the house I
grew up in was a Victorian house, late Victorian. Which I think called the Gothic Period. It was
really covered with little gargoyles and scrolls they developed the scroll saw you that did all this
fancy work and our whole house was filled with that sort decoration and it‟s not certainly not the
best period of architecture, little cupolas and those things. You found the Gothic Revival; you‟ll
see quite a few of those houses here. You also saw quite a few houses built out of river stone for
instance that little house next to the Art Gallery is built out of river stone. We had some other
lovely houses like that but many of them have been taken down. I think Grand Rapids to me is
interesting, because of the variety of architecture. It wasn‟t just one period but it was drawn from
all these various periods. Most of it not really the best period, I don‟t think.
Interviewer: Was there competition perhaps between people of means in the Hill District in the
Heritage Hill area in the design of their houses? I walk down the street and like you say the
diversity of styles, they will be a house here of one particular style and right next door is a house
just as large but it‟s a completely different style. Do you have any idea of why that [happened]
from your knowledge?
Mrs. Meade: No, I don‟t think I‟m old enough to have that knowledge. Most of those houses
were built when I grew up. For instance, I can remember going to all those houses, where all
�10
these friends of mine lived, [and] practically all of them had a ballroom in their attic, all those
houses. You‟ll find the old Wilcox house that was given to the YWCA, has a lovely ballroom.
My aunt, Mrs. Walter Winchester‟s house, wasn‟t a very big house down on Madison, they had a
ballroom. The Waters‟ house, which is now made into apartments, that had a beautiful ballroom.
And our parties as we were little children, we were quite young, they had parties at their houses.
We always walked to these things and we‟d dance up in these ballrooms. The Russell house, I
don‟t know about the Boltwood‟s, but the Russell is still standing, they had a beautiful ballroom.
That‟s where we used to have some of the best parties; there were never anything at school. We
had to go to somebody‟s house but everybody, so many people had ballrooms you see that that‟s
where we would, and they were big houses. I don‟t think there was any thought of competing
with somebody else. I think in those days, things were so much less expensive and there was
plenty of help, plenty of help. Even though they were paid only three dollars a week, that was
good pay you know. Our house which was a big house, we always had two people; I mean
usually a cook and a maid. That was much less than most people had. I mean everybody lived
that way, the hired girl you know.
Interviewer: What nationality were these hired people?
Mrs. Meade: Well, mostly Dutch and mostly they‟d come in from the farms and their family
would want the girl to have a job in town and would learn about housekeeping and so forth and
they‟d come in and you‟d train them. They wouldn‟t know anything usually when came to most
of us I mean some of them got very sophisticated help, but most of us didn‟t. Even when I was
first married, I had girl after girl that would come from up north or some little town and they‟d
come and you‟d teach them how do everything. To this day, I have any number of these girls
living right here in Grand Rapids and every so often they come and now they are now married.
And they come and bring their children. I‟ve even had one or two of daughters work for me since
then. It was a wonderful relationship, you did all sorts of things for them, but they weren‟t, I
wouldn‟t say they were meant to be part of the family, they cooked and wait on the table and do
that sort of thing but that‟s all gone now, there‟s nothing to that anymore. I don‟t think that was a
bad thing because they all learned and they went on to their own little houses and did things
nicely and brought up their children nicely. I‟m just proud of the ones I had.
Interviewer: Then it was a socializing process as much as it was a working?
Mrs. Meade: Yes I think so. There was no thought of being inferior or anything like that. The
same thing I think, my husband comes from Richmond, Virginia. There‟s nothing more “south”
then that and he grew up with a mammy that looked after all of them. These families just
worshipped these mammies. They took care of them till they died and his mammy couldn‟t read
or write, he used to teach her, try to teach her to read and write. There was a wonderful
relationship between these people and of course now it‟s all gone.
�11
Interviewer: Were there quite a few parties when you were young? Was there more partying
than there is today?
Mrs. Meade: Many. I don‟t know that there were more parties but I would say that we had a
great many parties. At Christmas time, if we were away at school or college and came back and
before that, each family gave a little party. They were usually quite early in the evening, and of
course we never had anything to drink or smoke or anything like that. I mean they were nice
parties and we thought they were absolutely marvelous but we certainly didn‟t know anything
about what they are doing today. I‟m sure today they think they, well they ask what you did. It
sounds absolutely silly when you tell them. We all thought we had a marvelous time.
Interviewer: What did you do at your parties?
Mrs. Meade: We mostly danced, I think.
Interviewer: Were they pretty formal affairs?
Mrs. Meade: Some were quite formal; yes some of them got to be quite formal, in those days. Of
course there was a great deal of wealth here in Grand Rapids and there were all these families
who I, our family never belong to the country club but I knew a few people who did and once in
a while somebody would give a party out there and then it was very formal and we all got
dressed up and went. Always chaperoned, in fact all the older people would come out and watch
us, dance and everything else. We didn‟t like that very much. Anyway, it was fun. To begin with
before that we didn‟t have any cars but after we had cars. For instance we used to have these
ponies and one of the things we did that was most fun, we had a sleigh and we had a long, long
bob sled and we would all pile on that bob sled . Somebody would drive the ponies and we‟d pull
this thing along behind. Eight or ten people or more than that could get on it you see. We‟d go all
over town with that or else we‟d take it out and we‟d slide down Washington Street. You know
Washington Street was the best one to slide on that there was; you didn‟t run into something at
the bottom. We‟d zip down that thing and all around the corner where the museum is now.
That‟s where we used to slide. We did that kind of thing. I can‟t remember anyone skiing but we
tobogganed and we slid and we skated. We skated out here all the time. I can remember Don
Baxter, who you remember Howard Baxter, of Baxter Laundry. Don was his brother and he
invented things. He invented something that had a propeller out in front just like an airplane you
know and a little box and we‟d sit in this thing behind and this thing would go across Reed‟s
Lake. It was terribly fast and we‟d all take turns riding on that. They had those ice sails and we
all did that. We did lots of things out of doors.
Interviewer: Getting back to those parties, those dances, someone mentioned to me that in one of
those houses they had a kind of floating dance floor, it bounced, it moved when you danced on it.
Did you ever?
Mrs. Meade: No, I don‟t remember that, which house was it?
�12
Interviewer: I can‟t remember. There‟s a name for that kind of dance floor.
Mrs. Meade: I‟ve been on them in New York, where they whirled, they moved slowly around
but I‟ve never been on one….
Interviewer: It was built so there would be a flex to the dance floor.
Mrs. Meade: That might be, but I don‟t recognize that, I don‟t remember that.
Interviewer: Were the families in your neighborhood when you were growing up quite close?
Was there a lot of interaction between the families?
Mrs. Meade: Yes, I just knew everybody up and down street.
Interviewer: Did your parents?
Mrs. Meade: We all did, right where I lived for instance, we knew the May family, and across
the street lived the Wallin family, the Van Wallin family. Do you know who Franklin Wallin is?
Well, his family was quite a prominent family and his grandfather was. There‟s a Wallin church
and so forth. They lived there and my aunt and uncle, Walter Winchester lived near us; the
Tietsorts, the Dean family lived on that street. Well, just that whole area. Senator [William
Alden] Smith lived up about a block from us. I don‟t think, but the place we thought was the
most elegant was Lafayette Street where the Fullers lived there and Mr. O‟Brien who was our
Ambassador to Japan and the Holt family. In that area right around there, I would say probably,
our most distinguished families or the most socially prominent families that lived there,
Lafayette up to Fountain right along there. It‟s all ruined now, more or less. You know that one
house, [with] that Jewish thing built out in front of it. I don‟t know, I haven‟t been along there to
notice but that was where they lived.
Interviewer: Who lived in that house, that the synagogue is built on to?
Mrs. Meade: Well, I don‟t know. There was the Fuller family, ones the Fullers and ones the
O‟Briens. It‟s the one or the other I can‟t remember which one. I think it was the O‟Brien House.
The Holts were a very distinguished family and well the Booths lived out there. They came a
little bit later but they were there. Jo Bender would know all that because she was more that
group you see. I mean I was a little bit younger, I was scared to death of them but she knew
them. They were the kind that looked you up and down you know and you never felt you were
properly dressed. They used to come out to country club and watch us dance. The Waters family
and the Hollisters and the White family were another very fine interesting family. You should
really sometime talk to Rugee White. He‟s caustic, but anyway his family, I mean there‟s
Stewart Edward White, who was the writer and there‟s Gilbert who was the artist and there was
Rod who was the violinist and they all did things, except Rugee.
�13
Interviewer: There‟s a funny story about him. He was at a party one night and a woman came up
to him and said, “Oh, you‟re one of the White family” and mentioned his brothers and she said,
“But you, what do you do?” And he looked up and said, “Oh, I freckle.”
Mrs. Meade: That would be just about what he„d say something like. But, on the other hand, he
was probably the best fisherman and hunter in Michigan. I mean he knew more about it, he‟s
never written anything, he could of, but he really knew everything, he was very good at that.
Interviewer: You mentioned you were scared to death of this older group, why was that?
Mrs. Meade: Well, only because people, I don‟t know why I always felt they were of the
ultimate socially and I didn‟t probably think, you know there is a certain age where you are
terribly shy and you don‟t feel you have any poise and you don‟t feel as though you probably are
dressed as you should be if you went to the party or something. Girls I know especially go
through a period like that. It makes me laugh as I look back on it but anyway, I can always
remember the first time I was invited to the Holt‟s house for lunch and I was so impressed that I
got asked.
Interviewer: You didn‟t make any blunders, did you?
Mrs. Meade: I hope not, but I was afraid I‟d might you know. Well, of course there was the
Blodgett family, and the Lowe family; the Blodgetts and the Lowes were the ultimate of the
whole thing, they were the wealthiest of all. But they couldn‟t have been nicer families, just
wonderful families. They were very nice to all of us, and were the Blodgett family, Katherine
Blodgett who is now Katherine Hadley was just my age and she‟s one of my closest friends now,
but I didn‟t know her as a little girl. She went to high school along with the rest of us and so I got
to know her very well. The Lowe family, there was no one exactly, Jimmie was a little bit
younger than I was and others were a little bit older but I knew them all. Mrs. Lowe was a very
gracious lovely hostess and so was Mrs. Blodgett. They lived beautifully and we used to always
love it, if we were invited there.
Interviewer: Was status a very important thing then?
Mrs. Meade: As compared to now or what, I don‟t know?
Interviewer: Yes, as compared to now?
Mrs. Meade: Well, I don‟t know how to answer that. I suppose it was. I was quite aware as I
grew up of the people who were in society so to speak. We had a society. It was a real society
then, there‟s no society anymore
Interviewer: How does that period of time differ from this period of time? When you say there is
no society today, what do you mean exactly?
�14
Mrs. Meade: I don‟t know every family that I think that was socially prominent was socially
prominent for some real reason. I mean the father was a distinguished person that had done
something important. It wasn‟t necessarily money. Well, you take the Campau family. I knew
them very well. Did you know DuBarry or any of that family? I mean they weren‟t a family of
wealth at all, but they were an old, old Grand Rapids family who helped found the city; we all
knew that you see. The Butterfield family, all of our families helped start this town and we all
had little part in it one way or another, some maybe more than others. Now you take for instance
some of the Jewish families that I grew up with here, the Wolf family and the Amberg family
and the Mays and the Housemans. We couldn‟t have had nicer Jewish people any place than
these families that I grew up with. Budge Hyman, Art Wolf, and Elizabeth Wolf and these
people were our close friends and they were part of our little group just as close as could be. In
the long run, most of them did marry into the Jewish, but I can remember wondering why in the
world people talk about, feel as they did, about the Jews when I never know anybody but the
nicest most generous cultured people. We were lucky to have and some of those families are still
here.
Interviewer: The ethnic groups, for example, Jews and Dutch, I would imagine that Dutch at that
time were mostly immigrants, is that correct?
Mrs. Meade: Well, no, because for instance the Steketee family certainly I wouldn‟t call them
immigrants. I grew up with all of them, knew them very well. I would of, yes I grew up with
them. I don‟t think, they maybe were as socially prominent as the Holt family or something like
but they were wonderful families. We all knew them well. The Keelers, they weren‟t Dutch were
they? There were a great many Dutch families of course that came to this area who were the
farming families but then there were some of the others that came too.
Interviewer: In other words there was a lot of social interaction between all groups because you
were a member of a particular ethnic group, you didn‟t stay in your own group at all? There was
mixing?
Mrs. Meade: No, I would say maybe the Polish. For instance, we got quite a big Polish group
that live on the West side, and we may have some little groups like that because they have Polish
Clubs I know and so forth. I don‟t remember knowing any Polish people that I think of. I don‟t
know why I didn‟t but I didn‟t.
Interviewer: Was there a great division between the west side and the east side?
Mrs. Meade: I, perhaps, think so because I grew up on this side for instance we owned a house
over on Mt. Vernon Street and [one day] somebody said to me, "What are you doing?" I said
“Oh, I am having a wonderful time. I‟m redoing or painting this house that we owned. It must
have belonged to some family, wealthy family; it‟s a beautiful house and its lovely old carved
stairway.” I was going on in great length and she said, “Where is it?” I said, “It was on a street
you never heard of. It‟s called Mt. Vernon Street.” She said, “Let me tell you that I lived on Mt.
�15
Vernon St. and all the people you know lived over there. Siegel Judd lived there; then all of the
Stewart family lived there.” And then she went on everybody I knew had lived on the west side
right in that area. Scribner, Mt. Vernon and all along there see and I didn‟t know that. I think
they all moved eventually to this side but many, many of our well known families started right
there on the west side.
Interviewer: How would you define society today? Today you said that today there is no society,
why do you feel that way?
Mrs. Meade: I don‟t know if I should have said that.
Interviewer: You said the thing that distinguished your society was that your position or
entrance into society did not necessarily depend on wealth, but on achievement
Mrs. Meade: I think, I just think that the families that we knew, nearly all were families that were
a real part of this town. Going all the way back from the Campaus on up to John Ball. Now for
instance, John Ball was one of our wonderful people in the early days. I have a marvelous book
about him. His children, his family were still living here. I knew some of them, Miss Ball one of
them worked down at the library for years and years and years. Another sister married a man
named Hopkins. I knew them because I think because they were a part of Grand Rapids. Yet, the
people I knew, the very small group compared to whole side of the city.
Interviewer: That society that was in existence when you were young, that isn‟t in existence any
longer, what can you attribute to the demise of that?
Mrs. Meade: Well, a lot of it, I mean should we talk about gracious living and so forth. That
takes time, leisure and money. Many of those families did have a great deal of money and they
did have the time to travel and they lived nicely because they had servants and so forth. I can
remember this time; I don‟t live that way anymore. Oliver says I would like to have the children
come in occasionally to see gracious living and all we do is have four candlesticks on the table,
and I get it, see. I don‟t call that gracious living. But we did live through a period where you
didn‟t talk about, you didn‟t think about, that‟s the way you lived, everybody lived that way,
practically.
Interviewer: What caused it to end?
Mrs. Meade: I don‟t know because they talk about the affluent society, I must say a lot of people
have plenty of money. First of all I think one thing that causes a lack of gracious living, is the
lack of help. Now nobody wishes to do this sort of work; nobody wishes to come in your house
and act as a servant, no matter how nicely you treat them. You can get a young student to come
and work so many hours a day or I can get my grand-daughter to come and help me or you know
that kind of thing. You can‟t get that kind of thing. If you want to give a lovely dinner, we all of
us had silver and the things you could do it with, you can‟t get anybody to come and do it for
�16
you. You can‟t do it yourself so you don‟t do it at all. So what you do is have a cocktail party or
you have somebody in Sunday night. I have just as much fun Sunday night maybe more, have a
casserole dish and everybody sit around the fire and eat on their laps and that kind of thing.
Maybe it‟s better; maybe everybody has a better time. I can‟t but I don‟t think when I watch
these kids, all of them have to have something, they have to have the television turned on or the
radio or all of these things. They don‟t know what to do if they haven‟t got something like that it
seems to me. We made up things to do.
Interviewer: What about the closeness of these various families that had a long history of
achievement in the city, why aren‟t those families still interacting as they did when you were
growing up?
Mrs. Meade: Many of those families are right here now. The Hutchins family was one of the
families that I knew well. They were a bunch of as you know his father was very community
minded and his grandfather and his father and that whole family. All those families that lived
along there; the Keelers, the [Victor M.] Tuthills, all of them I think have gone on. For instance,
Marguerite Inslee who was a Tuthill, she‟s been very interested in the Art Gallery, very generous
in music and so forth and all of them have taken jobs on boards of the hospital or Community
Chest or you know. I think all of us were brought up to feel if we happen to have a little more
than someone else, that you had a responsibility to the community. It made a difference as to
what you went into. I mean I happen to be interested in planning and that type of thing. My
brother John was interested in politics, my sister-in-law Helen had interests in all sorts of things;
everything there was to be. I think all those families had gone on taking their part in the
community.
Interviewer: Do you think the splitting up of the neighborhood, for example it sounds as if the
families were located in a relatively close distance of each other spread of the suburbs and so had
an effect on this?
Mrs. Meade: I guess an effect on their interest in the city and then what they wanted to do.
Interviewer: What about in terms of social interaction just with each other?
Mrs. Meade: I know that I‟ve carried on with all the same friends that I‟ve had. I belong to
something that a reading club that we started forty, fifty years ago. The same people are there are
in it, some have died you know. I think we had very close associations then and I think it is
always carried on. I don‟t know that now there‟s the closeness that there was when we grew up.
We didn‟t have all the things; we couldn‟t go off and do all the thing that people… these high
school kids now think they have to go abroad. Even in high school the tour, my grandchildren
have already done that. Why, I never went abroad till I was way out of college. There are so
many things that kind seems to shatter closeness now. I think it‟s hard for families to keep close,
harder than it was, it seems to me.
�17
Interviewer: Why do you think it is?
Mrs. Meade: Well, I think it‟s just, maybe restlessness; everybody has it, maybe we all have it,
maybe I have it now. We used to be satisfied and happy with things that were simpler. We didn‟t
know about these other things; we didn‟t listen to the Today Show every day and know what was
going on in the world. I don‟t know; I‟ve always been a person with a lot of adventure. I‟ve had
an interesting life because I‟ve had that maybe more so than my friends but that‟s why I lived in
China and did different things. We‟ve always liked it but I should ask you some questions, I‟m
afraid I‟m giving a terribly bad impression. When I‟m talking about society, you know there are
so many misconceptions about the word society.
Interviewer: Why don‟t I stop this tape and I‟ll start another. I‟d like to hear what these
misconceptions. I don‟t want you to feel like you gave a misconception on this tape.
Mrs. Meade: I don‟t know if I did or not. Is this being done just for Heritage Hill?
Interviewer: Yes, just for Heritage Hill.
Mrs. Meade: You‟re trying to get a picture of just that area there?
Interviewer: I think that the farm for example, Alta Dale that you had, what people did in the
summer time, where they went is important too, because it gives a picture of the style of living?
That‟s what we are trying to get.
Mrs. Meade: Well, it wasn‟t so stylish to go live on a farm as it was to go to Ottawa Beach. I
always longed to have a cottage at Ottawa Beach but the Martin family never had one. Anyway
our friends used to love to come to the farm, but I don‟t think by and large most people did that
in the summer. They were much more apt to go to Ottawa Beach. Only one or two friends of
mine that I ever remember ever took a trip abroad were sort of set apart if you were, to be able to
do that you know because people just didn‟t do that in those days. My mother, when my mother
became engaged to my father, my grandfather took her abroad for six months with his daughter.
This was before father and mother were married and she had the grand tour and I have her diary
about that. That was just a beautiful trip. Imagine going for six months. When people went
abroad they stayed that long. My mother‟s family didn‟t have very much: my mother taught
school and she would never have had a trip abroad ever, you see, and I think my grandfather
wanted her to, you know have all the background possible probably, so he gave her this trip,
which of course she just loved.
Interviewer: You were mentioning while we were changing tapes about the difference in parties
today. You didn‟t have liquor at your parties?
�18
Mrs. Meade: I can‟t ever remember anybody having liquor. The first time I remember anyone
having anything to drink at anything, even a house party at Ann Arbor. I can remember the boy
who had something to drink was taken away, nervously taken out. We were none of us supposed
to realize he had anything to drink but he was drunk, I guess. But, we never in the early days
ever had anything like that.
Interviewer: What about...?
Mrs. Meade: I think I‟m trying to think all the way through high school, I can‟t remember; now
maybe they did and I didn‟t know it, because I was pretty innocent. But anyway I don‟t
remember them. We certainly never had stunts pulled or anything of that kind, of course I
remember lots of it since, but not….
Interviewer: What about your parents parties, did they?
Mrs. Meade: Well, my parents never had it. I think there were families that did, but my family
were very anti, any kind of drinking, so we never had anything in our house, we never had
anything to drink. But I „m sure probably people like the O‟Briens and Holts, people like that,
they‟d lived abroad a good deal and everything I‟m sure they must have had. I don‟t know if they
would have cocktails but I‟m sure they‟d have a wine probably, with dinners. But I was too
young to ever go to anything like that, and I don‟t think that, I know my parents didn‟t, but I
think there were probably some that did.
Interviewer: The parties that were held for the adults, and your parents and so on, the parties that
they attended, can you ever remember them going to a cocktail party?
Mrs. Meade: I don‟t think they, they didn‟t have things that was such a thing called a cocktail
party until within the last number of years. You‟d maybe have a cocktail, I had, the first time I
was confronted with cocktails I remember, was when I was twenty-two or three years old. And
we went to China, the whole family and we went to the Embassy in Peking and we went to
various, we were invited to various places and we were served cocktails, which I took, whether
my family liked it or not. But anyway, but what I thought when in Rome do as the Romans…
But my father never enjoyed drinking anything, we tried to teach him but we couldn‟t. No, no, it
was something, I think probably their friends, maybe some of their friends did but most of them
did not drink, and we just weren‟t confronted with it and finally when we were we just had to
figure it out, whether we would or we wouldn‟t, I guess.
Interviewer: Besides parties that were held at people‟s houses and skating and so on and Reed‟s
Lake in the wintertime, or traveling across the ice on a propelled bike, what kind of
entertainment did people pursue?
Mrs. Meade: You mean did we go to the movies or something like that?
Interviewer: Were there movies?
�19
Mrs Meade: Well, when I was very little I was not allowed to go, but the first thing was called a
vaudette, they cost five cents. You were not supposed, I was never supposed to go in one, but I
did. And it was just one of these flickery things you know, somebody playing the piano and…
Interviewer: When was that?
Mrs. Meade: Oh, I can‟t, I don‟t know how old I was then, and I know just where it was right on
Monroe Avenue, but I can‟t, I don‟t know how old I was.
Interviewer: What was downtown like in those days?
Mrs. Meade: Well, I can‟t say Monroe was like it is now, but that was the main part of the
shopping area, was right down what‟s now the mall. And of course we had streetcars; that was
the nice part, we could if we didn‟t have a car to drive down, which we didn‟t mostly, we‟d go
out and get on the streetcar at corner of Madison and Wealthy and ride downtown and get off and
shop and then you‟d get back on. We had mailboxes on the streetcar that was another thing that
was wonderful, you could mail your letters there, stop a car there if you wanted to put „em there,
a letter. We often rode down on the streetcar and then they took those off and then the era of the
bus came. But I loved the streetcar era. Another one of the families that was quite prominent was
the Hanchett family. They were the ones, of course, that owned the street railway company.
That‟s somebody you ought to talk to is Brownie Hanchett, if you want back history, she‟s very
good.
Interviewer: I‟ll remember that. When did they do away with the streetcar?
Mrs. Meade: Well, I should remember, you know you can‟t remember dates when they did
things like that, I can‟t remember when that happened.
Interviewer: Was it in the twenties?
Mrs. Meade: I wouldn‟t, I‟d hate to tell you. I don‟t really know, they just disappear and then
you realize they‟re gone.
Interviewer: Did the First World War have an effect on society, the way people lived, and the
way people thought?
Mrs. Meade: Well, it certainly did while the war was going on, very much so. I mean because so
many of the boys that we knew were in it, you see. I mean well, all the Cassard boys and Randy
Rogers, and George Hollister and all the sons and my brother and all the people my age were all
in that war, and a number of them that were killed, of course. So that we were all working in the
Red Cross and doings things like that. No it wasn‟t very gay, we did do that, we did have that
War Garden, that one summer.
Interviewer: What was it like after the war? Do you remember any kind of a change that you
might have noticed in the tempo of living, and so on?
�20
Mrs. Meade: That would be twenty… Well, I tell you, I think after the war it was gayer in a
different kind of way, the kind of a keyed-up gayness. You hear, they talk about the twenties
now and I try to think back and there was a period there when everybody was kind of, you know,
terribly keyed up. And I forgot when, I‟m trying to think about when Prohibition came in. I guess
that was later, but this was when all the dances, you know, the Charleston and all those different
things came; and jazz and we all wore the short skirts and that kind of thing. We hadn‟t realized
we were lively through an era, but I guess we were. I don‟t, I think the tempo of life has changed,
but maybe that, maybe that‟s when the, that may be when all the big parties that, the really
formal parties and things, that may be when they really did stop. I think it was then probably.
Interviewer: This is off, away from parties, but what church was your family affiliated with?
Mrs. Meade: Park Congregational. My grandfather went there; my father went there, until he
was the oldest member of the church. We all went there, sat along in a line…. I guess in those
days everybody had a pew, all the families, different families had pews. I can just see us now, the
Keeney family sat back of us, and then we sat there and then the Irwin family and everybody,
and then afterwards they gave that up too, but in those days that was what you paid for your pew,
see.
Interviewer: Was the church, was that important at all to, was that an important input factor in
the community?
Mrs. Meade: I think the church, especially in the era when my mother and father grew up, that
was the social center of the town. I think from reading her diaries and letters and things like that,
where people went to meet each other and the young people‟s meeting and that kind of thing,
which in my era was not as important. I mean we went to church, but our whole social life didn‟t
depend upon what was going on at the church. But my mother and father, that was where it was.
Now it may not have been with all the families, but my families were very strong
Congregationalists and my father was the head of the Sunday school, and I don‟t know, Mother
was the head of the United Workers. I always feel guilty now because I‟m not any of those
things. In fact, most of the family well, we‟ve had, great changes, around. My brother John
became a, went to Fountain Street Church and he was a great worker in that, and my brother Joe
doesn‟t go at all, and I‟m the only one that stayed in the Congregational Church. And yet they
had such a battle down the old Park Church that I had to move out here to the Mayflower
Church. Oh, heavens I, now listen you‟d better take that out…
Interviewer: Well, that won‟t be that important. I think that, I think we covered about everything
I wanted to cover. One last question though, and you don‟t have to answer this if you don‟t want
to, but how old are you?
Mrs. Meade: I am seventy-four. I wish I weren‟t, but I am….
�21
INDEX
A
F
Alta Dale farm · 7, 19
Alten, Mr. [Mathias] · 8
Amberg family · 16
Art Gallery · 10, 18
Audubon Society · 7
First World War · 22
Fountain Street Church · 23
Fuller family · 14
Fuller, Philo · 7
B
G
Bailey, Rebecca · 1
Ball, John · 17
Bartholomew plan · 9
Baxter Laundry · 13
Baxter, Don · 13
Baxter, Howard · 13
Bender, Jo · 14
Blodgett family · 15
Blodgett, Katherine · 15
Blodgett, Mrs. · 15
Boltwood, Mrs. · 3
Booth family · 14
Braman‟s farm · 6
Brooks, Rose · 5
Bush, Irving · 4
Butterfield family · 16
Gilbert, artist · 14
Gilbert, Rod · 14
Grand Rapids Savings bank · 5
H
Hanchett, Brownie · 21
Heritage Hill · 5, 9, 10, 11, 19
Holiday farm · 7
Hollister family · 14
Hollister, George · 22
Hollister, Harvey · 2
Holt family · 14, 16
Holt‟s house · 15
Houseman familiy · 16
Hutchins family · 18
Hyman, Budge · 16
C
Campau family · 17
Campau, DuBarry · 15
Cassard boys · 22
Central Grammar school · 6
Community Chest · 18
Comstock, C.C. · 2, 3
Crawford family · 7
I
Inslee, Marguerite · 18
Irwin family · 22
J
Judd, Siegel · 17
D
Dean family · 14
Dix House · 10
K
Keeler family · 16, 18
Keeney family · 22
Konkle, Mrs. · 3
�22
L
Lafayette school · 6
Lantsberry family · 2
Lantsberry, Mary Alice · 1, 2
Lowe family · 15
M
Martin, grandfather · 1, 3
Martin, John B. · 1, 4
Martin, Joseph H. · 1, 2
Martin, Mary Alice · 1, 2
Martin, Peter · 2
Martin, Uncle Thomas · 2
May family · 13, 16
Mayflower Congregational church · 23
Meade, Richard Hardaway · 1
N
Nelson-Matter Furniture Company · 3
O
O‟Brien family · 14, 20
O‟Brien house · 14
O‟Brien, Mr. · 14
Old Kent Bank · 5
Old National Bank · 2, 5
P
Park Congregational church · 23
Park Congregational church · 22
Penfield, Mrs. Thorton B. · 4
Peoples Bank · 5
Plank Road · 2
Prior, Eleanor · 1
Prohibition · 22
R
Reed‟s Lake · 13, 21
Robinson, Henry C. · 1
Robinson, Rix · 7
Rogers, Randy · 22
Russell house · 11
Russell, Fran · 3
Russo, Mr. · 5
S
Smith, Senator [William Alden] · 14
Steketee family · 16
Stewart family · 17
T
Tietsort family · 14
Tuthill family [Victor] · 18
U
Union Bank · 5
W
Wallin church · 13
Wallin family · 13
Wallin, Franklin · 13
War Garden · 7, 22
Waters family · 14
Waters‟ house · 11
Welsh, George · 9
Welsh, Ken · 9
White family · 14
White, Rugee · 14
White, Stewart Edward · 14
Wilcox family · 8
Winchester family · 2, 3
Winchester, Althea · 1, 4
Winchester, grandfather · 3
Winchester, Samuel · 2
Winchester, Samuel Alexander · 1
Winchester, Walter · 11, 13
Wolf family · 16
Wolf, Art · 16
Wolf, Elizabeth · 16
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a8ea3040c939b34b8cec954c312c451e.mp3
99df13c02b98b1a3889c4998f4ac63be
Dublin Core
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Title
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
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Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
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Various
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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eng
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RHC-23
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1971 - 1977
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RHC-23_7-8Meade
Title
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Meade, Mary Alice
Creator
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Meade, Mary Alice
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Mary Alice Martin was born in Grand Rapids in 1897. She returned home from Vassar College during WWI to farm.
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
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Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
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Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Women
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eng
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Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
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1971
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/95a6b0ff5ed76327d1fc2690609cd12e.pdf
ca634a646d8c202078698b21d4a3c4b0
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History Collection RHC-23
Mrs. C. L. Lockwood
Interviewed on September 14, 1971
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tapes #5 & #6 (41:37)
Biographical Information:
Katherine Maria Pantlind was born 25 December 1888 in Grand Rapids. She was the
daughter of James Boyd Pantlind and Jessie Louise Aldrich. Katherine married Closson
L. Lockwood 10 November 1909 in Grand Rapids. She died 16 March 1976.
Closson L. Lockwood was born 22 January 1879 in Grand Rapids. He was the son of
Closson L. Lockwood, Sr. and Frances E. Wycoff. He died 10 December 1944. Closson
and Katherine Lockwood are both buried in Oak Hill Cemetery.
James Boyd Pantlind was born 20 January 1851 in Norwalk, Huron County, Ohio, the
son of Ralph Nevius Pantlind and Catherine McGorgon. He came to Grand Rapids with
his uncle, Arunius Voorhees Pantlind in 1874. J. Boyd Pantlind married Jessie Louise
Aldrich on 14 April 1880 in Grand Rapids. He died 25 December 1925 in Grand Rapids.
Jessie Louise Aldrich was born 1 January 1858 in Grand Rapids, the daughter of Moses
Vail Aldrich and Euphrasia Jones Ledyard. Jessie died 15 August 1936 in Grand Rapids.
Both Jessie and J. Boyd Pantlind are buried in Oak Hill Cemetery.
___________
Interviewer: This interview with Mrs. C. L. Lockwood was recorded September the
fourteenth, nineteen seventy-one. Now, why don’t you say a couple of words or
something, to see if it’s recording?
Mrs. Lockwood:
Oh, I see. What do you want me to say, it’s a nice day?
Interviewer: Something like that.
Mrs. Lockwood: It’s a beautiful day.
Interviewer: That’s fine.
Mrs. Lockwood: What about what I like and enjoy?
Interviewer: Good, that’s fine. Maybe, the question that I’d like to start with is, do you
remember a Moses Aldrich?
Mrs. Lockwood: Moses Aldrich was my grandfather.
�2
Interviewer:
Do you remember him?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, he died before I was born.
Interviewer:
Oh.
Mrs. Lockwood: He died when my mother was married. He’s been dead many, many
years.
Interviewer: Oh.
Mrs. Lockwood: No, I never knew him. And my grandfather, my great-grandfather was
still alive, William B. Ledyard, when I was born, but I don’t remember him.
Interviewer: Now, Ledyards and Aldriches did they come here?
Mrs. Lockwood: They came from Plymouth, Michigan
Interviewer:
I see.
Mrs. Lockwood: My grandmother was a Ledyard, she was Euphrasia Ledyard, and she
married Moses V. Aldrich. Moses Vail Aldrich.
Interviewer: And he was the mayor of Grand Rapids?
Mrs. Lockwood: Mayor of Grand Rapids many, many years ago. I’m awfully sorry, I
don’t remember him, I forgot to get his picture when I was there.
Interviewer:
When were you born, if I may ask?
Mrs. Lockwood: I was born in eighteen eighty-eight.
Interviewer:
Eighteen eighty-eight?
Mrs. Lockwood: I’m eighty-three years old. Back in way, way back in the history of
Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: What was it like where did you grow up as a child?
Mrs. Lockwood: I grew up on College Avenue, one thirty-four College Avenue. It’s
now part of the Hillmount [Apartments].
Interviewer: Oh, yes
Mrs. Lockwood: One thirty-four is on the south side of the street.
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Interviewer: What was it like in those days?
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, the way early days?
Interviewer: Yes
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, the early days I had the goats, and I use to drive the goats back
and forth, up and down the street, I even drove them downtown. My Father ran the
Morton Hotel. I’d tie the goats to a telegraph pole and I’d go in and get a nickel and I’d
go in and get a soda at the Church & [Wick?] Drug Store and then I’d come out and drive
the goats home. I was only about fifth grade. But there were no streetcars. There were
streetcars, but there were no automobiles. And of course, I avoided the streetcars.
Interviewer: Why was that?
I didn’t like the streetcars and my goats didn’t like them either. And they were very, very
stubborn, my goats. They’d go out and sit right down, in the harnesses and wouldn’t
move at all. I’d get the old buckboard and I’d drive up and down the street.
Interviewer: How many goats did you have pulling your cart?
Mrs. Lockwood: I had three at one time, but only two on the cart. When, I was a child, I
wanted to ride everything; I rode everything in the neighborhood. I rode all the horses
and things that were in the stable. And my father said I was too heavy for one goat so I
came around the house riding two goats; one leg over one, and one over the other. He
said I don’t know what I’ve done. But I was very, very well behaved when I was riding
them. And I was a funny child. I’ve done everything.
Interviewer: Were there many houses around your family’s home?
Mrs. Lockwood: There were houses; the Bissells lived next door to us, Mrs. M.R. Bissell
and Lewis Withey lived beyond … then the Waters. Mary Waters and I were great
friends. And we went riding on the streets there.
Interviewer: Was there a gazebo on the Waters’ property, do you remember?
Mrs. Lockwood: What was that?
Interviewer: It’s like, it’s kind of an outdoor building that people spend time in the
summertime.
Mrs. Lockwood: There was a summer house up on the hill, behind Mr. Waters’ house. I
didn’t know what a gazebo was.
Interviewer: I never knew either until I saw a movie called The Gazebo and they
explained it.
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Mrs. Lockwood: I’ve never known anything like that for it. A gazebo, I’ll remember that.
Interviewer: Were the families very close?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh very, we went back and forth, very friendly with the Bissell boy, we
were great friends. And I’d stay there for dinner till I got dessert there, then I’d go home
for dessert. I’d stay anyplace where dessert was good because I enjoyed it so much.
Interviewer: Do you still like dessert?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh, I still love dessert. And Irving Bissell and I were great friends.
We’d ride goats together. We’d ride everywhere. He had a white goat.
Interviewer: What color were your goats?
Mrs. Lockwood: My goats were brown and white, and black and white.
Interviewer: What did families do, for example it seems as if families that today in the
neighborhoods are not as closely knit as they were in those days, I mean the families,
from what I understand the living was like in those days, the families today don’t have as
much interaction.
Mrs. Lockwood: We had a great deal of very good, very friendly with our neighbors. I
think the automobile is the reason for that, don’t you?
Interviewer: The automobile?
Mrs. Lockwood: You see we all took street cars, everywhere. We’d meet on the
streetcars and we were very friendly with everyone in our neighborhood. Grandmother
Aldrich lived on the corner of Cherry and College, Grandmother Aldrich, then my father,
and then Mrs. M.R. Bissell, then Mr. Withey, then Mrs. Waters. And Mr. and Mrs.
Barnhart lived across the street where Mrs. Edith Putnam lived and then, afterwards Mr.
Barnhart bought that house. We knew them all. And the Voigt family lived across the
street and the Byrnes family lived across the street from us. Gordon Dudley lived where
Mrs. Waer is now living. Then Charles Fox was in the Castle and the Fox family had
dogs. I was over there a great deal with Mrs. Fox because she got me to come feed the
dogs and help her with the dogs, give them baths and things. Which I enjoyed very much.
Interviewer: Why do you think the auto, what effects do you think the automobile had
in the neighborhood?
Mrs. Lockwood: I think it’s taken the people away from home a great deal, don’t you?
It’s a very independent life now. I don’t begin to know my neighbors, the way I used to.
When we sat on the front porch, people came and dropped in, people don’t drop in
anymore.
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Interviewer:
porch…
Were there many people that, in the evening when you’d be sitting on your
Mrs. Lockwood: Sitting on the front porch and other people would see you and they’d
come across the street and call on you. Stay for half and hour or something like, that. And
there’s none of that anymore. People don’t call anymore; don’t you think that’s true?
Interviewer: I don’t know because I’ve never lived in an age without the automobile.
Mrs. Lockwood: That’s true. Well of course, I was about sixteen when the automobile
was invented, the real automobile which means ones that you could buy. And my father
had an Olds. The first car, it was an Olds and a very good car. I learned to drive when I
was about sixteen.
Interviewer: What year was it when your father bought a car?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh I couldn’t tell you.
Interviewer: Well, now if you were sixteen… it must have been eighteen ninety-eight?
You were born in eighteen eighty-two?
Mrs. Lockwood: Eighteen eighty-eight.
Interviewer: That would be nineteen four.
Mrs. Lockwood: Nineteen four. That sounds right.
Interviewer: Was that one of the first automobiles in Grand Rapids?
Mrs. Lockwood: Let’s see, I don’t think father had the first automobile. He was, he was
not very interested in them at first, but he grew very fond of his automobile. The first car
he had was an Olds.
Interviewer: Were there any people, friends or acquaintances of your family that refused
to buy automobiles?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh no! Everybody bought automobiles. It caught right on everybody
enjoyed it. And my father never learned to drive, there was a chauffeur. And then when
we grew older, my brother and I drove it all the time. I liked to drive it very much. It had
acetylene lights and I would light the lights. It had no starter on the car. You had to have
a handle and what do you say?
Interviewer: Crank it?
�6
Mrs. Lockwood: Crank it. I’d crank it about an hour. Ira Batchhelder and I used to crank
his automobile, when I was a child. I had a very happy childhood.
Interviewer: What was downtown like when, did you say your father owned the Morton
House?
Mrs. Lockwood: Owned the Morton House. And afterwards we rented the Pantlind. He
never owned the Pantlind, but he owned the Morton House.
Interviewer: What was your father’s name?
Mrs. Lockwood: Pantlind, J. Boyd Pantlind. James Boyd Pantlind. He was in… he was
brought here with A. V. Pantlind [his uncle Arundius Voorhees Pantlind] and was the
original partner here in Grand Rapids. They ran the Morton House. They brought Father
here as a little boy, about fourteen years old. And he ran the Morton until he died. Of
course he was running the Pantlind also.
Interviewer: What was the Morton House like in those days?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh very, very attractive really. There was a mezzanine floor where we
would sit and watch everything going on there all the time. It was very attractive hotel
with the lovely pictures, lots of carpets and many conventions in came there. There was a
very attractive grill at the back that was connected with the bar, I suppose that’s what
appealed to men, but we used to go there as children and have our supper. It was very
well done, very. I guess that’s all I’m talking about is myself. Don’t you want me to say
something that I know about Grand Rapids?
Interviewer: Alright, tell me something that you know about Grand Rapids.
Mrs. Lockwood: I mean something you’d like to know about Grand Rapids?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, I know that the statue from Lookout Park is now over here on the
intersection of Cherry and State street. That statue used to be at Lookout Park. When I
was a little child we used to go up there. Do you know where Lookout Park is?
Interviewer: I think so.
Mrs. Lockwood: Okay.
Interviewer: Why’d they move the statue?
Mrs. Lockwood: I have no idea. But I knew it very well, I discovered afterwards when
here, in our Park and there was a large fountain where the horses would drink because
there were only horses, no automobiles. Everybody had horses, my mother drove a horse
�7
and my father liked to drive. I rode horse-back, had ponies and things like that, (the
Bissell boy did too) and no cars, it was a very different life, a very simple life compared
with now. I think the automobile has, changed the entire community, don’t you?
Interviewer: Well
Mrs. Lockwood: You don’t remember when there were not cars?
Interviewer: No, I don’t.
Mrs. Lockwood: The automobiles, the movies and the television, I think that changed the
world very, very, much.
Interviewer: What did, how did family groups spend their time in those days when there
weren’t movies, automobiles and televisions?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh we had enormous family parties. There were thirty-five in our
family for Christmas dinner. We had Christmas dinner on the third floor at father’s house
he’d dress up as a chef with a cap and apron and everything. He’d carve the turkey up
there. We had beautiful parties up there. I had a… when I was married we had a supper
up there. It was just as attractive as it could be. That’s the way people lived. They all had
third floors. They all had dancing parties. They had a billiards table up there where you
could play the afternoon and evening but that was a very close family life when I was
young. We were very close to our parents. And we were very close to your neighbors.
Interviewer: Were during the year, other than the holiday season, were there, would,
families give parties and invite friends in?
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes, We have them almost every Sunday, [] we went to some member
of the family.
Interviewer: I see
Mrs. Lockwood: I had many relatives here. Mrs. J. H. Wonderly is my aunt, and, Mrs.
Richard Smith was my cousin, the doctor’s wife and my Aunt Kate Blake who was Mrs.
John Blake, he’s been dead for many, many years was here too and then I went there to
school, she had a house.. it’s the old Dix house on Cherry Street. You know where the
Dix house? [Horace P. Dix]
Interviewer: No
Mrs. Lockwood: That’s right across from that Oakwood Manor; it’s that house with the
pillars in the front. [540 Cherry St]
Interviewer: Oh, that Greek Revival.
�8
Mrs. Lockwood:
Yes.
Interviewer: You went to school there?
Mrs. Lockwood: I went to school there. Went to school on the first floor at the back of
the house.
Interviewer: What kind of school was it?
Mrs. Lockwood: A private school. I don’t think it was as good as the public school but
we all went there. The whole neighborhood went there. And we enjoyed it very much.
Interviewer: Why did your parents send you to the private school?
Mrs. Lockwood: It was right here, we were closer to home. And we all went to Mr.
Powell’s School up on College Avenue. Then I went in high school, finally, which I
enjoyed very, very much. I highly approve of the public school. I think they’re much
better for youngsters.
Interviewer: Than private schools?
Mrs. Lockwood: Than private schools. I think you rub elbows with everybody, you
learn to adjust yourself to the world. I think it’s very wise to send a child to public school.
Interviewer: What was the public school you attended?
Mrs. Lockwood: I went up there to Central High School. Central was on Ransom Street
then. I don’t know it’s there now. It’s no longer there.
Interviewer: Not on Ransom Street now.
Mrs. Lockwood: No, it was called Central High School when I was young. And I went
to into grade school then I went right into high school.
Interviewer: What kind of, was it basically the same education in the private schools
that they had in the public schools?
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, I thought much harder then, when I was young, very much harder
than now. That isn’t, that’s not true at all. I was a very, very poor student. Isaac Keeler
sat right in front of me. I’d never been through arithmetic if it hadn’t been for Isaac
Keeler. He helped me with my work all the time.
Interviewer: He was a good student?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh he was a wonderful student, wonderful student and I was a very poor
student. I was very conscientious. I tried very hard but I was a poor student.
�9
Interviewer: Did you go to college after high school?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, I went to Dana Hall which is in Wellesley, Massachusetts. It’s a
very good school for the wealthy. I didn’t go on to college.
Interviewer: Did many of your neighbors, did the children that you grew up with, did
they go to college?
Mrs. Lockwood: Very few went on to college when I was young.
Interviewer: What did they do after they got through with high school?
Mrs. Lockwood: They came home and made their debuts and usually married very, very
young. I was just twenty when I was married. I was very happily married and I had a
perfectly beautiful time but I, I think I was much too young, at twenty years old to marry.
Don’t you think that’s very young?
Interviewer: I think it depends on the individual.
Mrs. Lockwood: I think so too. Well, I had a very happy married life; I had a very
devoted, very sweet husband. I wish I could talk of something besides myself.
Interviewer: Oh I think that, personal recollections, something you were involved in
yourself, and that you saw and experienced are the best recollections.
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, I have very happy recollections. My father said, he couldn’t
arrange my life for me, adjust my life for me, but he could give me a happy childhood.
That was his ambition, and he certainly did. He gave me a perfectly wonderful childhood.
Interviewer: That’s a fine memory.
Mrs. Lockwood: Um hum, it’s a wonderful memory to have of a person. Of course Grand
Rapids was dirt streets and it was very, very different from now. And I could only go
from Fountain to Cherry on my pony and with my goats. I wasn’t allowed to go farther
than that.
Interviewer: Why was that?
Mrs. Lockwood: Because I was so little, I was only five years old.
Interviewer: Oh.
Mrs. Lockwood: When I got older I rode everywhere. And father had a farm when we
were older and we used to ride, I used to ride out there almost every day, had a tennis
�10
court out there, It’s now the cemetery. It’s the Catholic and Protestant Cemetery it’s
called… out on Kalamazoo Avenue.
Interviewer: Yes
Mrs. Lockwood: You must know that cemetery.
Interviewer: Which one?
Mrs. Lockwood: Woodlawn. Woodlawn.
Interviewer: That was out in the country then?
Mrs. Lockwood: It was way in the country. It was miles away. It’s not very far now by
automobile but it took a pony a long time to get out there.
Interviewer: where the country begins in terms of where you lived on College Avenue?
What was considered out in the country?
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, you were getting in the country really… you’d go out Kalamazoo
Avenue and I would say that at Burton Avenue you were in the country.
Interviewer: How about southeast what’s now East Grand Rapids and so on? Was
that…?
Mrs. Lockwood: East Grand Rapids wasn’t there at all and that was very much in the
country, when I was young.
Interviewer: Did you ever go out to Reed’s Lake?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh, I went there all the time. And they had the Ramona out there you
know when I was a child. And we’d skate out there in the winter and the Ramona in the
summer, vaudeville every night. We’d go out in the streetcar and there’d be streetcars
that would bring you home. The last streetcar we always had to catch. It was delightful.
We’d roller-skate out there in the summer time, ice-skate in the winter. And Mr. Rose
was a son of Mr. Rose Senior. I don’t know what the name was, it was Todd Rose’s
father, was in charge of the swimming when I was a little girl. I enjoyed it very much. I
was more than a little girl; I must have been fifteen or sixteen years old.
Interviewer: What was your most memorable experience as not only, what was your
memorable experience as a young person not only as a child but, let’s say as a teenager
and so on?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh, let me see. I think that would be very hard for me to decide, I had so
many memorable experiences. I have no idea. Maybe too many to tell.
�11
Interviewer: Well, can you try and tell me a couple?
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, one experience I remember very well, Margie Stanton was a
friend of mine and we met Teddy Roosevelt, and she told him that she had a raccoon
named Teddy. That tickled me almost to death. As a child, that pleased me so.
Interviewer: Where did you happen to meet Teddy Roosevelt?
Mrs. Lockwood: He was here in Grand Rapids. We met him down at the hotel.
Interviewer: At the Morton House?
Mrs. Lockwood: At the Morton.
Interviewer: What did he come to Grand Rapids for?
Mrs. Lockwood: [To] speak. Must be for running for election. I went to see but I was too
small to remember.
Interviewer: What did he say when the girl told him that her raccoon….
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh, he said, “I’m delighted, I’m just delighted.” He smiled all over and
she was so pleased she could hardly stand it. And she said, “I have a cute raccoon and
named him Teddy for you.” He was very pleased by it. And very amused by it.
Interviewer: Did many politicians come to Grand Rapids, to campaign or one thing or
another in those days?
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, President Taft came here and Theodore Roosevelt was here. No I
don’t remember any others. Oh, Bryan was here, too.
Interviewer: William Jennings Bryan?
Mrs. Lockwood: William Jennings Bryan. I’m a Republican so I didn’t hear William
Jennings Bryan, but I saw him. He was down in the square.
Let’s see if any, anything else exciting happened. I don’t believe so, in the way of
political life. Alice Roosevelt Longworth was staying here with her husband years ago.
And Mrs. Hanchett and her husband took them on the Honolulu [I] remember, the only
one I remember. It was his streetcar and they took him out to the Cattery. And they
wanted to get Mrs. Longworthy a cat but she didn’t want it.
Interviewer: What was it, what’s the Cattery?
Mrs. Lockwood: It was on the corner of Carlton and Lake Drive. I can’t tell you the name
of the woman, she raised cats. She had hundreds of cats in that house. And she raised
�12
them. She wanted to give Mrs. Longworth a cat but Mrs. Longworth couldn’t take care of
a cat.
Interviewer: (Hanchett) he owned the street car line.
Mrs. Lockwood: That’s right and afterwards he was across from my father and mother
on College Avenue, and they occupied that house. I was very fond of Mr. and Mrs.
Hanchett. Mr. Hanchett was very fond of horses too.
Interviewer: Did they, did they ever have races with their horses?
Mrs. Lockwood: They used to race down on Jefferson Avenue, every Sunday afternoon.
Ride fast horses in the cutter. I used to go there often and they raced their horses, up and
down the street. And they had races out here at the fairgrounds out here in the south end.
I never went out there.
Interviewer: What….excuse me.
Mrs. Lockwood: I used to go to the fairgrounds out here.
Interviewer: Yes, where are the, where were the fairgrounds?
Mrs. Lockwood: The fairgrounds were out… let’s see where that is now? It’s well, it’s
out where the, what is there out there now? It was out by Mill Creek out that way.
Interviewer: By Middle Creek?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, Mill, Mill Creek it was called. Mill Creek.
Interviewer: I don’t know where that is.
Mrs. Lockwood: It’s in the north side of the city. It’s beyond North Park, across the river
from North Park.
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
Mrs. Lockwood: You know where the Soldier’s home is?
Interviewer: Yes
Mrs. Lockwood: It was right out that bridge. Right out that road.
Interviewer: In these horse races, there down on Jefferson Avenue, would they race like a
jockey race or would they (?)
�13
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh no, they, just in their cutters. They had cutters. And the men would
have fast horses and just race Sunday afternoons.
Interviewer: Did your father ever race?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, he never raced. He wasn’t fond of anything like that. So I never
raced either. I’d like to, but my pony wasn’t fast enough and they were very good looking
horses they were racing. I used to drive, ride down there and watch them. When the
circus would come to town we’d all go to the circus and had wonderful times like that.
Interviewer: Did many people go down to Jefferson Avenue to watch the horse races?
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes, they did. Had big crowds there on Sunday afternoon applauding for
who had the fastest horse great crowds there, on Sunday afternoon. On pleasant winter
days in the cutters, we’d all go bobsledding. We’d take the bobs and the wintertime and
ride with the milkman. When he was delivering milk we rode with him.
Interviewer: What, what’s a bob? Is that the sled?
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes. Bob, that’s the sled.
Interviewer: You’d hold on the back of his open cart then?
Mrs. Lockwood: Back of his cart, open cart and he had a bobsled on it and he’d drive he
had some youngsters on the back of it all the time. And that was a lot fun. It’s very
different now. You couldn’t do that now. You couldn’t have a bob sled in Grand Rapids.
You’d be killed getting off and getting on. There’s nothing else you’d like to ask me?
Interviewer: Yes, there are a lot of things. I’m just thinking and just trying to picture that
who would any of the men in your neighborhood or in this area around here race cutters?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, I don’t think so.
Interviewer: Who were the men that raced the cutters?
Mrs. Lockwood: I don’t know the men at all. I’ve no idea. But anybody that had a fast
horse, trotting horses and pacing horses, they were all in the race, on Sunday afternoons.
And I’d go down on my pony just to watch them go by, but I didn’t know the men.
Interviewer: When did you get married?
Mrs. Lockwood: In nineteen nine, nineteen-0-nine - that’s a long time ago.
Interviewer: Did you spend your married life in this house here?
�14
Mrs. Lockwood: No, I’ve been here fifty six years; I was married and first lived on
Washington Street. It’s where those double houses are on Washington Street. It was four0-seven Washington. It was right next to George Thompsons.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. Lockwood: Just north of him, we were there for about a three years and then father
bought this house when had some (?) builder built it. (?) He was very amusing person, a
very attractive person. But Grand Rapids in those days was a beautiful city, the streets
were lovely and the trees were so beautiful on College Avenue. Of course, there was no
East Grand Rapids at all. As far as we ever went was Reed’s Lake. We never went any
farther east than Reed’s Lake on the streetcar.
Interviewer: Did people do much traveling in those days?
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes, my grandmother went to California every winter. She had a house
in California and a great many people went there. Mrs. Murphy went there every winter.
Interviewer: In California?
Mrs. Lockwood: In California.
And people didn’t go abroad the way they do now, but they went to California. I think
California was a very good favorite place in the winter and of course Father knew it too.
But they were very, very fond of California.
Interviewer: That certainly sounds different.
Mrs. Lockwood: It was a different world. Yes, of course there was no, there was no push
then there was no, nothing to make you rush. Everybody went to church and they drove
to church and drove home from church, the hitching posts for the horses, was a very
relaxing age. We’ve come to a very, I can’t quite describe what I mean but it’s, I think
there’s such a push we’ve got for everything now. Don’t you have that feeling?
Interviewer: Yes, I have that feeling.
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes
Interviewer: What do you think that ended that age that way of living?
Mrs. Lockwood: The automobile.
Interviewer: Do you think it was just the introduction of the automobile?
�15
Mrs. Lockwood: I think it was the cars. Then everybody could get away so quickly you
know. I don’t think it was very good to the young people.
Interviewer: Well, if people had such lovely times in the neighborhoods and with their
friends and their families, when the automobile was introduced why did they hurry away?
Mrs. Lockwood: Well, they finally got out in the country by themselves I guess. I just
don’t know.
Interviewer:
Yes
Mrs. Lockwood: But I do think the automobile has done a great deal, had changed
people’s lives. Don’t you feel that way?
Interviewer: Yes, I think it has sure had a terrific effect on American life.
Mrs. Lockwood: And we used to have neighborhood parties, I mean children’s parties.
You don’t have anything like that now for children. You’d go to someone’s house and
spend the evening and play tap in and tap out, post office and have the best time, they
don’t do that anymore.
Interviewer: The Aldrich family came from New York is that right?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, it was Plymouth, Michigan.
Interviewer: Plymouth Michigan?
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes,
Interviewer: Where did they come from before Plymouth, Michigan?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh, I think you’ve asked me something I can’t answer.
Interviewer: Well that’s not that important.
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes, they came from different places. I think originally from New York
State, from Rochester, New York, but I’m not sure of that. I know they, they were born in
Plymouth, Michigan.
Interviewer: After, after the Second, or the First World War you’ve been living in this
house for fifty-six years, what was the difference in, in the way people lived in society in
let’s say the twenties, after the First World War between then and the beginning of the
Depression? That span of time compared to the nineteen hundreds to nineteen-fifteen, for
example.
Mrs. Lockwood: I think people lived at home very much more before the war.
�16
Interviewer: Yes
Mrs. Lockwood: That and I think the country clubs.
Interviewer: Were you and your husband members of the country club?
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes, he was very fond of golf and but there was, I think there was, much
more family life when we were young.
Interviewer: Yes, what effect did the Depression have on the Hill District?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh it was very bad, nobody had any clothes any clothes that were new
and pretty and then nobody could have new because it was (?).And of course everybody
felt the depression very, very keenly.
Interviewer:
Did it affect you and your husband?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh yes, he was in the lumber business and it affected him very much.
We had to curtail everything but everybody else was curtailed, too.
Interviewer:
So almost everybody was suffering together?
Mrs. Lockwood: Everybody was suffering together. There were no comparisons at all.
And I remember Mr. Benjamin Robinson bought a new car and we were all simply
appalled that he could afford to buy a new car. He bought a new Packard car and we all
wanted to ride in it because it was brand new. And we were so impressed that he bought a
new car, of course he had no children. We had children, bringing them up and going off
the school and all sorts of things, it was a very hard time.
Interviewer: Are your children, still living in Grand Rapids?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, my daughter lives, she’s been living in Chicago, now she lives just
outside the Castle, Castle Park just below Holland. And my other daughter lives in
Parkton, Pennsylvania. I have four grand-children and three great-grandchildren.
Interviewer:
Three great grand-children?
Mrs. Lockwood: I’m very, very fortunate. I have a great grand-child almost thirteen
years old. She’s a young lady.
Interviewer: That’s amazing.
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes
Interviewer: You spent your summers down at Ottawa Beach?
�17
Mrs. Lockwood: Yes, always.
Interviewer:
summer?
Did you, when you were a child, did your family go anywhere for the
Mrs. Lockwood: Every summer. Father ran the hotel down there and [we] went to the
hotel for our meals and we had a very, very happy summer. Mother had a good time. She
just had to look after us, but no meals to look after.
Interviewer: How did you get down to Holland and Ottawa Beach?
Mrs. Lockwood: We drove down and for a long time took the train. This train would
leave at five-thirty in the afternoon and then we’d come up at eight-thirty in the morning
and then do all sorts of things. Interurban across the Lake from Ottawa Beach, stop in
Macatawa. We’d come up in the morning and spend the day and we’d go down at night
and have a beautiful time. But we hardly wait to get back to the beach.
Interviewer: What happened to that hotel?
Mrs. Lockwood: It was burned.
Interviewer:
Was your father still, managing it when it burned?
Mrs. Lockwood: No, father was dead and my brother had taken over. It burned in the
spring. I don’t think they ever knew what happened to the hotel. It was completely
burned. There was no one on the property at all.
Interviewer:
Was it in the winter when it burned?
Mrs. Lockwood: In the springtime.
Interviewer: Oh.
Mrs. Lockwood: Burned to the ground. It was a lovely hotel, with great big porches and
you could walk up on the porches and have dances very night. Everybody came from all
the cottages and went to dances and it was a very happy life. They don’t live that way
anymore. There’s a motel, nothing like the Ottawa Beach Hotel or Macatawa Hotel
anymore.
And I like Point West very much, but I had a gay life down there, at Ottawa Beach Hotel.
Interviewer:
Where did the guests that stayed at the hotel come from?
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh, from all different places. There was a great many people from
Chicago, a great many people from Cincinnati, and a great many people came from St.
�18
Louis. They would spend the entire summer there. A many people from Grand Rapids
went down there and stayed.
Interviewer:
They would spend the entire summer right at the hotel?
Mrs. Lockwood: In the summer, two or three weeks. And the season was only about six
weeks. We’d open in the latter part of June and close around Labor Day but no business
after August. July was a big month down there. Very, very gay and very nice people
came there in the summer… came summer after summer.
Interviewer: What did people, do in the winter time for their fun, summertime they’d go
down to the Ottawa Beach hotel but in the winter time what would they do for…
Mrs. Lockwood: I think they froze. .In the winter time, I don’t know. I had a very happy
time. We tobogganed or had bobsleds on Washington Street. They’d shut that street off
entirely. Nobody could get across it. We’d roll from the hill down to the, what street is it?
Interviewer: Lafayette?
Mrs. Lockwood: Not Lafayette.
Interviewer: State Street? Jefferson?
Mrs. Lockwood: Jefferson. We’d go right down to Jefferson. Arthur Vandenberg use to
ride the bobsleds_________ and down we’d go. And then we’d have to come up the hill
pulling the bobsleds. That wasn’t so much fun. But the going down was great fun.
Interviewer: Where did Arthur Vandenberg live? Did he live near-by?
Mrs. Lockwood: Just down Washington Street, about the fifth house down, just below
Prospect.
Interviewer: You grew up with him?
Mrs. Lockwood: We grew up there. And he was very good with the youngsters. And of
course, when I grew older he was just my age but when I was a child he was about five
years older. And he’d help us with our bobsleds and he was very kind to all of us. Mr.
Senator Vandenberg and my husband were great friends. But, in the winter time there
were, there was no Gay Avenue here at all. This has been added since I was a girl. It was
on Mr. Gay’s property. And they cut the street through and then of course, the property
was sold off. But this was all closed off and we start right from the head of the street and
at Madison to the corner anyway. And they, they’d close off Lafayette and Prospect;
we’d go right to the bottom of the hill on these big bobsleds.
Interviewer:
use it?
Who would use the hill, mainly children or would the adults sometimes
�19
Mrs. Lockwood: Oh no, no adults.
Interviewer:
They just did it for the children?
Mrs. Lockwood: Just for the youngsters. And we’d slide all day long. Now what my
father and mother did in the winter I just don’t know. I think probably they were bored to
death. Of course they had horses and they drove in the winter time and when the cars
came in they drove, drive an automobile in the ruts and a car would come towards you or
they’d have to back up the car to let you through.
Interviewer:
Who, who had to back up?
Mrs. Lockwood: One of the cars would have to back up.
Interviewer:
Oh, yes.
Mrs. Lockwood: Because you’d be in a rut driving in the middle of the street. The streets
weren’t cleaned at all in those days. You just took them as they were.
Interviewer: Before the car came in did they, how did they travel in the winter time,
with horses? Did they have sleighs?
Mrs. Lockwood: In sleighs. Yes, they all had sleighs. Father and Mother had a sleigh.
And I had a sleigh for my ponies. But they were no trouble because horses went all over
the street but in the winter you’d get in a rut and then someone would be in a rut. I was on
Madison Avenue one day and a car came towards me and he very kindly backed up to
Fulton Avenue, and let me out because I was right in the rut I couldn’t get out.
Interviewer: What would happen when a horse drawn sleigh would meet a car? Who
would have to move?
Mrs. Lockwood: The horses would be terrified. My ponies would stand up. They were
just terrified of the automobiles. I’d think they were going to run away but they never did.
It wasn’t very long before the automobiles were very popular. Is this all recorded?
Interviewer:
I hope so. Well, I think that’s all, I think we’ve covered quite a bit. Can
you think of anything that, if you were doing the interview you’d ask about?
Mrs. Lockwood: I can’t think of anything interesting, anything that would interest you.
Interviewer:
Well, try me out.
Mrs. Lockwood: I had a very happy time, very good time. No, I don’t believe there’s
anything else.
�20
Interviewer:
OK. Fine. Let’s see if we………
INDEX
A
O
Aldrich, Euphrasia Ledyard (Grandmother) · 2, 15
Aldrich, Moses (Grandfather) · 2
Ottawa Beach · 17, 18, 19
B
Barnhart, Mr. and Mrs. · 4
Batchhelder, Ira · 6
Bissell Family · 3
Blake, Kate (Aunt) · 8
Bryan, William Jennings · 12
C
Central High School · 8, 9
F
P
Pantlind, James Boyd (Father) · 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12,
13, 14, 18, 19
Pantlind, Jessie Louise Aldrich (Mother) · 2, 7, 12, 19
R
Ramona Park · 11
Reed’s Lake · 11, 14
Robinson, Benjamin · 17
Roosevelt, President Theodore (Teddy) · 11, 12
Rose Family · 11
S
Fox Family · 4, 5
Smith, Mrs. Richard · 8
Stanton, Margie · 11
H
Hanchett, Mrs. · 12
T
K
Taft, President · 12
The Cattery · 12
Thompson Family · 14
Keeler, Isaac · 9
V
L
Ledyard, William B. (Great-Grandfather) · 2
Longworth, Mrs. · 12
M
Morton House · 6, 11
Vandenberg, Arthur · 19
W
Waters Family · 3, 4
Wonderly, Mrs. J.H. (Aunt) · 8
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6e567dc0399a707c4465d92e23029b6c.mp3
71df701fb205d20b9365bc1c773dd162
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories
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Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
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Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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RHC-23
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1971 - 1977
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RHC-23_5-6Lockwood
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Lockwood, Katherine
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Lockwood, Katherine
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Katherine Pantlind was born on December 25, 1888 in Grand Rapids. Her father owned and operated the Pantlind Hotel. She married Closson Lockwood in 1909 and met Teddy Roosevelt. She died on March 16, 1976.
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Subject
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Michigan--History
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Grand Rapids (Mich.)
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Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Women
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1971
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb56c5bd09a68e280bf460b0097f516b.pdf
1998319d88a3709b35213b5ed1dff526
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mr. Lowell Blomstrom
Interviewed on 4 August 1977
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010- bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #56 (1:06:10)
Biographical Information
Mr. Lowell Blomstrom was born on 22 March 1893 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He was the son
of Carl Herman Blomstrom and Anna A. Berglund. Mr. Blomstrom died on 4 July 1979 in East
Grand Rapids, Michigan. He married Signe M. (surname not found) about 1922. Mrs.
Blomstrom was born in 1890 in Michigan and died in Grand Rapids on 21 February 1959. Both
Lowell and Signe were buried in Greenwood Cemetery in Grand Rapids.
Carl H. Blomstrom was born in April 1867 in Lisbon, Ottawa County, Michigan. He was the son
of Carl G. Blomstrom and Elizabeth ―Elles‖ Carlson. Carl died in 1923. He married Anna A.
Berglund on 17 September 1890 in Muskegon, Michigan. Anna was born in December 1865 in
Sweden and died in 1923. Both Carl and Anna were buried in Greenwood Cemetery in Grand
Rapids.
___________
Interviewer: Lowell Blomstrom, 559 Lakeside Dr., S.E. Grand Rapids, Michigan; on the 4th day
of August, 1977.
Mr. Blomstrom and his father have been pioneers in the automobile industry for perhaps close to
seventy-five years. I‘ve asked Mr. Blomstrom to tell us a little bit about his background and why
don‘t you just start talking and tell me about your, where you were born and how long, you did
say you born in Grand Rapids? Is that correct?
Mr. Blomstrom: Oh yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: May I ask you what year?
Mr. Blomstrom: Ninety-three, eighteen ninety-three.
Interviewer: How long did you stay here?
Mr. Blomstrom: We moved to Marquette in eighteen ninety-seven, just about the time the
Spanish-American War started. And, oh did you have that on?
Interviewer: That‘s alright.
�2
Mr. Blomstrom: And father built his second automobile there. His first was built in Grand
Rapids. I have no record of that; I have pictures of course of the one in Marquette. That was
started in eighteen ninety-eight and finished in nineteen hundred. And then in nineteen one we
moved to Detroit where he started the Blomstrom Motor Company. To build the Queen car.
And...
Interviewer: May I, let me go back to Marquette for just a minute. What was the car called that
he built in Marquette?
Mr. Blomstrom: There was no name assigned to it.
Interviewer: No name assigned to it?
Mr. Blomstrom: No it was just the one car.
Interviewer: How many, how many were built?
Mr. Blomstrom: Just the one.
Interviewer: Just one
Mr. Blomstrom: Like that yeah.
Interviewer: And then you went to Detroit in nineteen one?
Mr. Blomstrom: Went to Detroit in nineteen one and he got backing from some millionaires in
Marquette. They financed it and, and they built about almost 2 thousand Queens one cylinder
first, just a few, a handful of them the first year. Then he went to a two cylinder post flat engine,
you know what we call a pancake engine. And then he made a four cylinder in nineteen six and
prices were of course quite high for those days, the four cylinder was twenty-two fifty ($2,250),
the car like the similar to the one in Grand Rapids Museum was twelve hundred dollars. And the
first original one like that one up there on that picture that was seven hundred and fifty dollars,
pardon me, seven hundred, fifty dollars. And he had trouble with his partners and he left in
nineteen six and started the Blomstrom Thirty, it was called. Thirty was horsepower based on the
formula they had at those days, the old SAE formula which we don‘t use today. England still
uses it. And they built the Blomstrom car; that was the runabout, they made a touring car. And
that was quite a car for its day. And I have one of those.
Interviewer: What year was that?
Mr. Blomstrom: That was nineteen two when the company was formed, but the first year they
made small boats, fifteen and a half foot long, selling for a hundred dollars. It was an inboard
three-quarter horse motor. And they sold thousands of those. Then he started the car in nineteen
three, one cylinder, in nineteen four he switched to two cylinders, course he made those right
through to six. The company continued on after he left but in two years it was gone.
�3
Interviewer: How many cylinders does the car have that we have in the public museum?
Mr. Blomstrom: Two cylinders,
Interviewer: That‘s two cylinders
Mr. Blomstrom: Two cylinders yeah.
Interviewer: And you say what was that built?
Mr. Blomstrom: nineteen four.
Interviewer: nineteen four.
Mr. Blomstrom: Yes and the car continued on until nineteen eight. He left in nineteen six and
then the Detroit Deluxe was put in there and backers from Marquette got the people that
designed the Willis Overland, Willis hadn‘t bought into it was Overland, in Grand Rapids or in
Toledo. And that was beautiful car and eight thousand dollar car then which was tremendous,
most beautiful car you ever saw. But they didn‘t last long. And company was sold and that‘s
where the Studebaker comes in to build a car, one of their earliest cars not the earliest but one of
the earliest.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Blomstrom: You know South Bend?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Blomstrom: They‘re the wagon people.
Interviewer: But your father did continue in the motor car business?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well then he, he built a Rex, a small car, I don‘t see it here on these pictures; it
was a front drive car, small, they were called, what did they call them? They didn‘t call them
compact cars, that was something later that Romney, Mr. Mason, who was the head of, later on,
American Motors. Why, I don‘t recall just exactly what they called them, cycle cars, they called
them cycle, they were real small. Well that lasted a while. Then he went to Camden, New Jersey,
Grenloch just outside of Camden and built this Frontmobile. See that car here? That was a front
drive car. And in my opinion they‘re all going to go to it within the next ten years, every last car
will be a front drive, in my opinion. And then of course the war came on and they were rationed.
Everybody was rationed. General Motors, Ford and everybody. And of course you had to base on
the number of cars made in nineteen thirteen; see the war started in fourteen in Europe; it started
in sixteen for us. And the big company got zero material based there was no car built in thirteen
see, Frontmobile. And so he went to work and he made two-wheel or two front drive and four
wheel drive trucks for the government for the ordinance till their money ran out. They had a
�4
beautiful building on the Horseshoe Pike going from Philadelphia-Camden to Atlantic City. Still
there, the building and they, the money ran out so that faded out of the picture. Then he quit
making cars and he didn‘t live very long; he died quite young, fifty-six. And his name was Carl
Herman Blomstrom; in Swedish Carl of course is Charles in this country he was known as
Charlie or CHB, CH they called him in the...
Interviewer: When was he in Adrian? You mentioned before we began…
Mr. Blomstrom: Well Adrian the Lion Car was built from nineteen eight to nineteen eleven when
fire destroyed the building.
Interviewer: That was in Adrian?
Mr. Blomstrom: That was in Adrian.
Interviewer: The Lion car?
Mr. Blomstrom: yeah it was named after the Old Lion Fence Company. They were bought out
they moved to Philadelphia or where they were near the source of steel wire see. They were all
wire fences you know. And so the company that was [Fred] Postal and [Austin Elbert] Morey
who had a big cigar plant in Florida and they owned the Griswold Hotel in Detroit. Father knew
them real well. And they were directors and quite a few Adrian people were in on it, directors.
So they wanted him to design a car and come out there and build it. It was a beautiful car, there
is only one in existence in a museum out near Rushmore you know where the, in the mountain
out there in where is it the Dakotas? Somewhere? The only one in existence.
Interviewer: Yeah I know what you mean.
Mr. Blomstrom: Near Rushmore-Rapid City, South Dakota I believe it is.
Interviewer: South Dakota.
Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah I think so. I‘ve never been out there but I understand they have the only
one in existence. And I‘ve located 7 Queen cars of that 2 cylinder variety less similar to the one
in Grand Rapids museum and I‘ve got one of them of course. That‘s I found that down near
Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, in a farm yard. It‘d been out there for 50 years and the chickens were
roosting on it when I saw it at night, just at dusk you know. A fellow told me about it and I
inquired. I got it. It was fully restored; it was in the antique tours a couple years. My cousin, who
restored it, drove it in there.
Interviewer: I see. What, where do you keep it?
Mr. Blomstrom: Where did I keep it?
Interviewer: Where do you keep it?
�5
Mr. Blomstrom: Oh it‘s in the museum.
Interviewer: Oh that‘s the one in the museum?
Mr. Blomstrom: Yes, that‘s the red one in the museum. He restored it, did a beautiful job. He
won prizes at Ford, Dearborn, Milwaukee and Fremont had their centennial you know.
Interviewer: How many Queen cars were built?
Mr. Blomstrom: Close to two thousand, around two thousand. That‘s pretty good for those days.
Course Olds was the big producer you know. That was before Ford really got going, you know.
Olds was the big producer up until nineteen six, seven when Ford come out with the forerunner
of the Model-T.
Interviewer: Now the Queens were all built in Detroit, it that correct?
Mr. Blomstrom: Oh yes, yeah all from Detroit; yeah, on the west side. At the foot of Clark
Avenue right by the river. Because he leased the old Clark Dry Dock for his boats you know.
Right across the street; that there was the river.
Interviewer: What did he do after he went out of the car business?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well he and I designed a steering gear reversible, irreversible steering gear for
Ford Model-T‘s and we sold thousands of them. I had the patents and I signed to the company.
And I still have one in the basement in my store room down there. And you know the Ford was
throw it out of your hand, they‘d tip over on you the Model-T‘s. I‘ve seen them tip over. You
couldn‘t have no control, no resistance see? It was too direct. And we made, we sold thousands
of them; had a company make them for us. And we had a lock on it and it would tilt up you
know so it would get in and out easy. Then it had a Yale lock on it so you lock your steering you
couldn‘t steer, it someone broke in. Well they were all open cars in those days. Pretty near all
open cars, very few closed cars. Well I don‘t know what else
Interviewer: What did people do for protection, who rode around in those early cars didn‘t have
any tops?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well, we‘d stop of course, uh we have umbrellas still we got to a place where
we could under a tree or something which was a foolish thing to do probably in a thunderstorm.
But we had umbrellas with we had raincoats of course, dusters you know like Cravanet or what
do you call it, brown duster. Had gauntlet gloves you know went way up the elbows. But we‘d
stop at a farmhouse and go in. Usually our coil which was on the dash got wet so it had we‘d
take it in the stove and borrow their oven and light it up to dry it out cause it couldn‘t run without
the coil. So we‘d go in and we had a lot of punctures. We usually drove up to the Sparta where
my grandfather lived on the farm he was a blacksmith and it would take us two days, better part
of two days you know we only made six miles an hour. We‘d stop at Lansing or one of the
�6
Williamston out here overnight you know. Come in the next not the full day but. Take us pretty
near two days. They made father made it once one day. He left at four o‘clock in the morning
and got to Grand Rapids at three in the afternoon. The roads were, there were no roads you
know, no paved roads. The first pavement in Michigan as I recall, outside of cities, was the four
miles from Howell this way. It was a tavern there called the Four Mile House. That was the first
pavement between Detroit and Grand Rapids. That‘s Howell, Michigan coming this way four
miles; and all the rest were muddy when it rained of course they were all terrible. No they, we
had a lot of fun in those days, although we ran into a lot of troubles. Mostly tire troubles,
sometimes the tires would go twenty-five miles, sometimes three hundred, no more.
Interviewer: No more than that?
Mr. Blomstrom: No they‘d blow out. They were clincher tires you know, hooked in not straight
side like yours and mine today. They were, were clincher tires and they would get rim cuts you
know. And then they‘d get cut on the ruts on the road when they dry you know it‘s just like
emery rubbing on the tires. They‘d blow out most of the time. We had punctures of course. We
carried our own patching, rubber patching stuff; what we call cement patch, gasoline patch you
know. We cleaned them with gasoline; cut it off with the shears, a piece out of its sheet you
know rubber? Then paste it on.
Interviewer: By what year were highways as we know them today, becoming more a part of the
landscape?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well it‘s hard; I‘d have records of it of course. The first piece of pavement in
the world is claimed, was put in front of Heinz, he was a road commissioner in Wayne County,
near Detroit, which includes Detroit. He had a farm outside, near Dearborn there, and he put a
mile of concrete pavement in front of his house, the farm house, that was the first piece of
concrete road as I understand it in the United States and probably the world.
Interviewer: When was this?
Mr. Blomstrom: About nineteen…well I don‘t know exactly. That was in I would say about
nineteen ten around in there. Then the city of Detroit ordered two one mile between Six and
Seven Mile Road on Woodward Avenue. And that was ten feet wide. And they had tollgates then
you know; the farmers had to pay a toll. We had to pay a toll there was one at Six Mile, there
was one at Eight Mile, Nine Mile, one at Birmingham, what‘s Birmingham now; and then one
out by Pontiac and towards Orchard Lake. So that first mile road that was put between Six and
Seven Mile on Woodward, Palmer Park if you‘re familiar, starts at Six, and this went to Seven. It
was 10 feet wide, if you met a farmer with a load of hay coming in or something you had to get
off. Two couldn‘t pass on ten feet. So the next year they made it twelve, and the next year after
that fourteen, then you could just about pass. It was a progression of two feet per several years.
And that was the first mile pavement in the World as far as I know. And then of course it started
to come in, there wasn‘t any, I don‘t, I would say close to the first World War before there was
�7
any amount of mileage and paved roads. Course we had what I call macadam roads you know,
that‘s gravel you know. And it was all just like some of the country roads today you know,
they‘re dirt roads. There was no pavement to speak. Just that four mile from Howell this way
was the first pavement other that the cities. Leaving Detroit, when we first started coming up to
Sparta, was a plank road. And finally that got so bad that they tore it all up. That would be on
Grand River Avenue going out to Farmington. (Doorbell rings) Pardon me.
Interviewer: There now we can resume.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well I guess we completed the roads about, didn‘t we as far as you‘re
interested.
Interviewer: Yes. Let me ask you a question. When did you become associated with your father?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well I was never actually in any of the plants that he was interested in. I
associated with him in the helping designing.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Blomstrom: And even when I was quite young I got out some patents you know in that way
and I helped in his figuring. Cause he, he went to grade school up here by the Marmrelund
[Lutheran] Church you know where it is? [Kent City]
Interviewer: I know where it is, yes.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well, my grandparents were charter members there in eighteen sixty-five. They
met in homes you know, first. That was the first building that they had, the wooden one, it‘s a
brick building now, was built in seventy-two I believe.
Interviewer: Do you remember a family up there by the name of Bloomer?
Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah I know where they were; the Bloomer Hill which was a real hill to climb.
We used to go up and father would drive and my brother and I would each have a stick of wood
and we‘d block the wheels. Could only go a little at a time.
Interviewer: That‘s my Mother‘s family.
Mr. Blomstrom: Is that right? You know the old Bloomer Hill? Course it‘s cut down now.
Interviewer: Yeah, I don‘t really know it.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well it was a steep hill, a terribly steep hill; they took off the top and filled in
the bottom down there where Kline, not Kline, what‘s his name? I know them, the family; I
know most of the family.
Interviewer: Klenk?
�8
Mr. Blomstrom: Klenk yeah. They‘re down in the hollow, by the Bloomer Hill.
Interviewer: I see. Well my grandfather and my grandfather‘s brother kept the farm until his
death in nineteen twenty-three. His name was Abel Bloomer.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well I don‘t know any of them. I just know the association with the Bloomer
Hill.
Interviewer: Do you remember the hamlet of Lisbon?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well my father was born there
Interviewer: He really was?
Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah on the other side, he was born in Ottawa County you know that‘s the
dividing line. That‘s Ottawa Kent. And he was born there, they didn‘t have any records but he
was because my grandfather had a blacksmith‘s shop there. It was called the BlomstromGrumback. John Grumback who was the head of the printing company at one time, he was his
first cousin you know. His Grumback‘s father and my grandfather Blomstrom were partners
there. They made wagons and did steel work, forging you know.
Interviewer: How many people lived in Lisbon in those days?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well I have a book on it that published in 1879. It was the biggest town around
there except Grand Rapids, of course. It was bigger than Sparta, [which] was called Nashville
you know originally.
Interviewer: No I never knew that.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well the creek is the creek going through there over to the Rogue River you
know. And the Rogue of course runs into the Grand here near Belmont. And so this was called
Nashville. He [J. E. Nash] was the first settler there. I have pictures of his home.
Interviewer: Were you born in Grand Rapids?
Mr. Blomstrom: On the west side. Near that St. Adelbert Church, a block away, in that Polish
settlement. That‘s quite Polish. It was the old church. This is a new one. This was built in
nineteen eight. The other one faced south, this one faces west on Davis I think is the cross street.
Near McReynolds, I don‘t know. Yeah the house I was born in was the corner of Davis and
McReynolds and Third Street. You see the freeway goes through there now; it took all of the
south side of Third Street there. The house I was born in is still standing over there, on the
corner.
Interviewer: Oh really?
Mr. Blomstrom: And they moved it around the corner and built a bigger house on the corner.
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Interviewer: What‘s the address?
Mr. Blomstrom: I don‘t know.
Interviewer: You don‘t know.
Mr. Blomstrom: It‘s still there. I drove by there a couple of years ago and I saw the house
Interviewer: Did you get up into the northern part of the county quite a lot to see your
grandfather?
Mr. Blomstrom: Oh yeah we used to go up there every year from nineteen three on, every year
we‘d go up there. Father would leave a car for us, he‘d take a tester along so he‘d drive back see?
And he‘d leave a car for my brother and I, we drove it, it was the only car; people would come
from hundreds of miles to see the car you know. Up at grandfather‘s they had heard of the car
you know, it was quite a rarity. You didn‘t see cars; well there were only eighty-two cars in the
state of Michigan, when I started driving, in the whole state.
Interviewer: when was that?
Mr. Blomstrom: Nineteen three, yeah, there was only eighty-two...
Interviewer: You were about ten years old when you started to drive.
Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah , yeah I was ten. I‘ve been driving ever since, never been without a car.
Interviewer: What did you, what were your business associations later on?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well, of course I helped father but I didn‘t work for the companies. I got some
of the patents. He only had eighth grade, he took an ICS; you know International
Correspondence Schools? At Scranton, Pennsylvania? He took drafting, I have some of his
drawings; they‘re beautiful drawings. He took correspondence courses in engineering; he‘s got a
diploma, which I have, in mechanical engineering of the ICS schools. And he was a prolific
inventor you know what I mean? One of these fellows who comes to work every morning and
has a new idea; never stops to make a nickel you know. And, well Henry Ford is the same thing.
I don‘t give him credit for the Ford motor at all. I give it to Jim Couzens and he ran the office
you know, the money, the Senator you know later on.
Interviewer: What sort of schooling did you have?
Mr. Blomstrom: High school
Interviewer: Where was that?
Mr. Blomstrom: Western High in Detroit. There were only three high schools in Detroit. Eastern,
Western, and Central. Western burnt down there‘s over thirty now, I know a few years ago there
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was twenty-six, probably thirty now. There was only three, Eastern, Western, and Central. The
Western burnt down twenty some years ago; there‘s a big new building there, much bigger of
course. The building that I was in was built around nineteen hundred. I was there from nineteen
six to nineteen ten, when I graduated. And I was going to MIT in Boston. And the principal got
me free entrance without an examination because I was fairly good in mathematics- high school
mathematics and college algebra too. And that‘s really what‘s helped me in most of my jobs.
Interviewer: Did you go on to MIT?
Mr. Blomstrom: No I had what they called some kidney ailment and they said I wouldn‘t live.
One time the doctor said a week and here I am almost 85 years old, but all the doctors are gone.
And well they didn‘t know. I grew up like a weed you know. I was six foot five only weighed a
hundred and forty pounds. You know just a hardly a shadow. And I played tennis, of course
those days we were, everybody called us sissies you know playing ping-pong out on the grass
you know. And when the city wouldn‘t give us a, had any courts, public courts those days, they
gave us a space in Clark‘s park. We had a roll it and stripe it on a clay court. They gave us a
space for clay on the green court. And so it was, we were the forerunners. My partner and I who
later became treasurer of Detroit Edison Company, he died 3 years ago, we were partners. We
played doubles so much you know in those days. I played up by the net because I was tall and
could reach a lot of them, stop them from going back. I couldn‘t run, he could run, he was fast
like old Borg in Sweden now you know. And this other fellow what‘s his name? I don‘t know.
And I couldn‘t run. So we played doubles quite a lot. He had his house full of cups. He was
champion of the west side and also head of the Detroit Edison Tennis Club for years and years.
He was good. I wasn‘t. I was better at playing baseball. I used to play baseball. Not
professionally but, and I don‘t know how it was I was so thin but I had a swing, a long swing.
Boy that ball would go.
Interviewer: Were those grass courts in those days?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well we had one grass and one clay court. The city put down the clay. I guess
you‘d call it clay, it was white roll. But they put up the posts. We had to furnish the net and stripe
it. We used to have our own machine for striping. And we had to furnish the nets and keep it up.
They gave us a spot in the park. There‘s hundreds and thousands of them in Detroit now public
you know. The only ones that were public were a couple at Belle Isle and two at Waterworks
Park. We used to go there and play; I‘d drive a bunch of kids over there. But now there‘re
thousands of them. Well you‘re asking me a lot of questions about myself. I thought this was
about my father.
Interviewer: Well I‘m interested in both of you. I wanted to go on to you back to you for a
moment. You became associated with some businesses.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well the first thing I did was after I was six years after I left high school and
they said don‘t go to college, I was going to MIT as I said, principal got me in there. Ordinarily
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they, those days, you had to take an examination; he got me in, without an examination. And for
six years I did nothing. I‘d walk. I‘d walk downtown and back twice every day. That was ten
miles. Finally I got so I could walk ten to fifteen miles a days. I was thin but apparently I grew
too fast and I was six foot five and weighed a hundred and forty pounds. Occasionally when I‘d
take the car, I had a car father gave me. But I didn‘t do anything there for six years. Then I got a
job in a small company as a timekeeper. We had those calculagraph clocks you know you punch
a card in out on the job. And I got to running all the machines there when they were idle I‘d see
the machine idle I‘d go and run it. I had that privilege, I knew the owners, and because I‘d
learned how to run practically every machine that father had you know. He had quite a machine
shop there. And you can see some of the pictures here I think, I don‘t know there might be some
here.
Interviewer: Yes there are, I see some.
Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah there‘s lots. I have lots more besides what‘s on the wall here. In the den,
and I could run anything-gear cutter, building machine or lathe or any machine because after
school I‘d go down there and see an idle machine and I‘d go run it. And I got so I could run and I
could figure of course. The average workman, a toolmaker, or anybody working in the shop
didn‘t know mathematics. They got through grade school and had to go to work. It was a
necessity they had to. They didn‘t go to, very few people went to high school. They went up to
the eighth grade like my father did.
And of course he had the ICS course but he was an inventor. Prolific inventor I call him. Henry
Ford was the same thing. But I spent an hour with Henry Ford a year before he died. It was on
his problem of bearings out there. Of course I was with the Bearing Company then -FederalMogul. It was Federal Bearing and Bushing originally, they merged with Muzzy Lyon Company
to form Federal-Mogul, which is in existence today. It‘s a big company. A very big company.
Interviewer: How long were you with them?
Mr. Blomstrom: Thirty-seven years. I went in as Chief Tool Engineer, Tool Designer, whatever
you want to call it. And then I got to be Chief Engineer including the machinery, designing, tool
fixtures and jigs and everything like that. And also the product engineering I had both. Now it‘s
split up it‘s so big. And then I got to be Chief Engineer and then I, the last ten years, I was
consulting to the president on manufacturing and engineering. Consulting engineer.
Interviewer: Did you live in Detroit during all this period?
Mr. Blomstrom: I lived in Detroit forty years from nineteen one to nineteen forty-one. We put up
a plant in Greenville which is still there and that‘s where we put metals on the moving strip,
while it‘s moving. And those were my babies. I engineered those. It took a lot of aspirin but I got
them working. And there‘s nine of them now; five in Greenville and four in St. Johns. And
they‘re a hundred and eighty feet long. Couldn‘t powder or babbitt on moving steel, freeze the
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babbitt of course the copper lead it goes thru ovens. It‘s a hundred and eighty feet long from a
coil of steel to a fine metal ready for the press room, form it into bearings. It‘s a very fine
process. We make our own powder. That is we I said I‘m not with them now but I
mean…Federal-Mogul makes their own powder. And St. Johns and we atomized molten metal
you know, make it molten metal make powder out of it.
Interviewer: Did you retire after you worked for Federal-Mogul you said you were willing—
Mr. Blomstrom: Well, when I was sixty-five they don‘t want you anymore like General Motors,
they kick you out. That‘s the customary retirement; they‘re talking about changing it now to
sixty-eight or something else.
Interviewer: Did you come back to Grand Rapids at that time or?
Mr. Blomstrom: I came back here in fifty-five. I bought a house on Maryland. I sold that when
my wife passed away. She‘s been gone—we have no children—she‘s been gone nineteen years
now. And I leased this when it wasn‘t even half finished through this building. There were no
walls, just a framework. And they were working on the brickwork outside. I‘ve been here, one of
the first here, eight years now I‘ve been, eight or nine I guess. No, I had a house over on
Maryland near, between Michigan and Fulton.
Interviewer: Yes. Tell me more about your father, tell me more about his later years.
Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah, I was going to tell you, you asked me about what I was doing. Well then,
I worked for this little shop and got around to be the inspector there. They made tool work and
some production work. And then I went with Paige Motor Car Company it was called—it wasn‘t
called the Graham-Paige then, the Graham brothers hadn‘t bought it then—it was called PaigeDetroit [Motor Car Company]. It was near where we lived on the West Side. I went in there, and
I‘d never take a drawing lesson in my life, but I told them I was an expert gauge designer. They
wanted a gauge designer. So I got to be their chief gauge designer. I think I was about twenty-six
years old or something like that. And I got along fine. From there I went to—well I was still with
Paige when they built that big plant out on Warren near the Lincoln Motor Plant which is now
Detroit Edison shops you know, that big building on Livernois and Warren. And, Paige was a
mile further out. I don‘t know what it is now, probably Chrysler Plant or something. Well I got to
be assistant tool engineer there. We had thirty-eight in the department. I was first chief checker
then I got to be assistant to the Master Mechanic. He‘s the headman of tool engineering today,
Master Mechanic. I got to be assistant Master Mechanic.
Interviewer: Excuse me interrupting, about when was this?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well it was around the war, just after the war, the First World War
Interviewer: First World War
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Mr. Blomstrom: Well I‘m getting a little ahead of my story. In the First World War I went from
Paige to Lincoln Motor Car Company. They hadn‘t made a car yet, they were making their first
one. You know they made the Liberty engine, the airplane engine. They made the biggest
quantity around six thousand of ‗em. And Ford made some, Marmon made some, Cadillac made
some, Hinkley made some. But Lincoln Motor made the bulk, there were six thousand about.
Probably all the rest were about four thousand. Not a one got across to Europe you know, they
were all on the coast when the war ended.
Interviewer: I see
Mr. Blomstrom: And honest, you could buy up for a song you know. A twelve-cylinder. ----Six
separate cylinders, each one bolted. They were made of steel. And I was chief gauge inspector
there under the head of all inspection. I wasn‘t the chief in the department, I was chief gauge
inspector. So I got a lot of—And then from there I went to Paige. The war stopped you know in
November, eighteen wasn‘t it? I believe we were only in two years. The war had been on since
fourteen of course. And then I went with Paige. So it was after the war that I was there as an
assistant tool engineer for… during the Depression of twenty-one there were thirty-eight of us in
the department and during the Depression there was only three of us, the boss, myself, and the
clerk. It was a sharp drop-off just like a cliff you know. But it started coming back, in eighteen
months it was normal. But everybody was laid off except a few key people you know. But
Lincoln wanted to keep me. Mr. [ Henry M.] Leland whose, was, started as one of the founders
of the Cadillac Motor Car Company, he left to start the Lincoln. They were building the car in
the —secret room. He gave me permission to go in there. I had a key. They were building the
first car during the war there. I saw the first Lincoln. And while it was being built, as a matter-offact, I was one of the privileged to go in there. And when the war ended there you know there
was a false, on Thursday you know there was a false alarm, but we didn‘t know it was a false
alarm, that the war was ended. The following Monday it was the real thing! And Mr. Leland, I
said, I‘m leaving, I‘m leaving, there‘s nothing here to do. We just played checkers and chess you
know with thirty-six of us in that whole plant including the office. We‘d come in ten o‘clock and
go out to lunch and then we‘d come back, play some more checkers or chess and go home at
three o‘clock. We did that from November to March, so I got tired of playing checkers and chess.
So I told him. ―No‖ he says, ―we got a good job for you. We‘re going to build a car in August, by
August.‖ I said, ―Mr. Leland you can‘t tool up. It‘s going to take you a year and a half to two
years to tool up.‖ Machinery wasn‘t good for that you know, what they had for the airplane
engine. So, well I was right of course, he couldn‘t start in August, this was March see. So I left.
He begged me to come back. In the meantime you know, Ford took it over. He had a little
trouble with Wilfred Leland‘s son, Henry Leland‘s son. Leland was very nice to me; he begged
me to come back. I says no, I‘m not coming back. And then Ford got hold of me—records I
suppose there, and he kept pestering me for two or three years to .... He had me all signed up to
be at Highland Park then you know, in the head of their gauge department. In the meantime of
course, during the war there, the Bureau of Standards wanted me in Washington, which would
�14
have been good experience. But my mother was ill, my father had passed away you know. So I
didn‘t go. Well, they said, we‘ll send you to Franklin Arsenal in, near Philadelphia. I says no, I
can‘t leave Mother. Well he said, we‘ll get you closer, Rock Island Arsenal where you‘re in the
Mississippi. I said no. So they passed it up. But Ford kept writing me for years, I never went out
there.
Interviewer: What did you do after..?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well, then I went with the Bearing Company.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Blomstrom: I been there, I was there until I retired. That was Federal Bearing and Bushing.
They merged in, that was twenty-one. In twenty-four they merged with Muzzy-Lyons to form
Federal-Mogul. Federal was the trade name of the Federal Bronze and Mogul was the Babbitt of
Muzzy-Lyons. So they took their two trademarks and formed a corporation, Federal-Mogul.
Interviewer: In what year did your father die?
Mr. Blomstrom: Twenty-three. Mother died, he died in early spring and Mother died in the fall.
Interviewer: I see. Had he been active up to the end?
Mr. Blomstrom: Yes, yes, he was active. He was always figuring out something new you know.
Interviewer: Well, do you have some other memories about the cars that your father-there‘s one
picture there you said was shown in New York?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well that‘s these two here. That picture‘s taken at the show; that‘s the chassis
and the touring car. This is the runabout. I had one of these. Front drive car. Course they‘re quite
new. There‘ve been front cars made before; old [J. Walter] Christie made a front drive racer, the
fastest car in the world those days until Barney Oldfield came around with a Blitzen Benz.
Interviewer: What year were those cars made?
Mr. Blomstrom: Those cars?
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well I think that‘s in nineteen seventeen when it‘s in the show. We started
that—well I didn‘t go down there; I was home. I wasn‘t doing anything for six years. I would say
it was around sixteen or seventeen.
Interviewer: Was that show in New York in the armory?
Mr. Blomstrom: I think it was what they called a National Armory, isn‘t it, something like that?
�15
Interviewer: Well I‘ve heard they used to have shows there.
Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah, that‘s right, I think so. I‘m not that certain about it, but I would think so.
They had a couple places there they showed ‗em. I wasn‘t down there, Father of course was
there. He‘d show the Queen car he started in Chicago at the old auditorium. He‘d stay at the
Congress Hotel. The owner of the Congress Hotel and the auditorium there was this one
millionaire [in] Marquette that financed the Queen. Of course we‘d go over to Chicago we‘d
have free hotel rooms and dinners and everything was free.
Interviewer: What was his name?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well that was the Kaufman family. They were very wealthy.
Interviewer: Did they live in Marquette?
Mr. Blomstrom: Some of them did. Of course one of the family, the one that financed Father,
was the oldest one. They married wealthy. They were smart, they married wealthy people. Louie
Kaufman, one of the brothers, was in New York. He was head of the second largest bank in the
United States. What was the—what is the second largest bank? I don‘t know if it is today.
Interviewer: I can‘t answer your question.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well, City Bank is one of them now I guess. But he was head of, he was
interested in the General Motors too. He made a lot of money besides, Louie. I met him, I met
him years ago. There were several brothers, four that I knew. And they all ended up pretty
wealthy you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Mr. Blomstrom: They made a lot of money in copper you know. And married a lot of… Well, I
could write a book if I‘d been around to it years ago. The editor of the Detroit Free Press, he‘s
not living now, needless to say, Mr. Blomstrom, he says, you ought to write a book he says, you
know more about the automobile business that anybody I‘ve ever talked to. Well I grew up with
it and I have a good memory you know, and through Father‘s associations.
Interviewer: Clearly.
Mr. Blomstrom: And I met a lot of the people later on when I was with the Bearing Company.
Did I say I met Mr. Ford, spent an hour with him, I got along fine with him. But he gets along
fine with outsiders, but he‘s tough on the people who work for him. Very tough. He‘s a one man
show you know. Edsel of course was my age exactly. If he‘d been living he‘d be close to eightyfive now. He was very small; he‘d only come to my shoulder you know. Ford was quite tall; he
bent over in the last few years. But I got along fine with Henry Ford
Interviewer: Did you know Edsel Ford too?
�16
Mr. Blomstrom: No, I never met him personally. I saw him lots of times. And I‘ve seen the sons,
his three sons, of course, lots of times when they were kids with knee pants. They‘d walk down
Washington Boulevard and there‘d be a guard in front and back you know. When they went to
school they‘d have to have guards you know, their school Yale or wherever they went. There
was Henry the second, and Benson, and William…Clay, see. They were all their middle names.
Well Clay was. You see, Mrs. Edsel Ford was a niece of J.L. Hudson the store man you know
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Blomstrom: And she was a Clay, her name was Clay, so that‘s where they get the Clay.
William Clay, and of course the younger son married one of the Firestone. You know old Henry
is their grandfather. [Harvey] Firestone and [John] Burroughs you know, the botanist or
whatever he was, and [Warren G.] Harding and they went camping. I have a picture here
somewhere. That‘s the first station wagon I ever saw. Ford made one just for that trip you know.
They‘d go camping, six or seven of them you know. Ford would always pay the expense. And
Edson, Edison, Thomas Edison, was one of that group.
Interviewer: You said Burroughs, but don‘t you mean Burbank?
Mr. Blomstrom: No no, I mean Burroughs.
Interviewer: Oh Burroughs.
Mr. Blomstrom: Burbank was the—
Interviewer: You know what you‘re talking about.
Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah. He was an elderly man, quite short. I have his picture here with Ford.
And Harding was president, then they invited him. Thomas Edison. Ford would do that every
year. And he got very close to Firestone. I think that‘s the reason why Edsel‘s youngest boy
married a Firestone. He owns a football team don‘t he? The Lions?
Interviewer: Yes, I believe so.
Mr. Blomstrom: That‘s the youngest. Then there was girl in the family too, Josephine I think‘s
her name. I don‘t know exactly. I think so. She married a Ford so she didn‘t have to change her
name.
Interviewer: Another Ford family as I recall.
Mr. Blomstrom: It‘s the Ford-Alkali, Michigan Alkali, or Wyandotte Chemicals now. They were
very wealthy people. That‘s the Ford of Libbey-Owens-Ford family Toledo, the plate glass
people.
Interviewer: I see.
�17
Mr. Blomstrom: It‘s not the Ford automobile people. No connection. No connection. And that
Ford building in Detroit‘s the same way. That‘s not the Ford automobile man, that‘s the FordAlkali, I call ‗em Alkali because it was the Michigan Alkali in Wyandotte you know. Now it‘s
Wyandotte Chemicals. They make products for making glass, they supplied the elements.
There‘s a famous Ford family in Toledo, Pittsburgh plate glass and Libbey-Owens-Ford family.
That‘s a different family entirely. See Father made the cars before Ford. Well of course he made
that one. He made one here in Grand Rapids in ninety-two, but I‘ve never checked with the
newspapers if it‘s in there. He was working with the Perkins Machine shop on Front Street. They
just tore that building down, of course they‘ve been gone for years, when they made the freeway
through there. Front Street is jogged there somewheres. Then he went to Marquette in ninetyseven. Well he was quite a smart duck considering he didn‘t have any education. He had both
feet on the ground like Kettering, ―Boss‖ Kettering, Charles Kettering. He was a great fellow; I
used to go and visit him. He had both feet on the ground. They‘re so interested in developing
new things that they never stop to make any money. That is a beautiful drawing isn‘t it? I don‘t
know what I‘m going to do with that.
Interviewer: It says, The Lion Forty Power Plant.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well, that was the old SAE rating. England still uses that rating. What you do,
you square the bore, if it‘s a five inch cylinder you square it, that‘s five times five is twenty-five,
multiply by the number of cylinders four, that‘d be a hundred, divided by two and a half, that‘s
where you get forty see.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Blomstrom: Get it?
Interviewer: I get it.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well they still use that in England, we don‘t, we use the brake horsepower. Test
it on a brake dynamometer. Actual horsepower of course, they take off the water pump and the
generator. Actually, the horsepower‘s not what they say it is because they take off some things
that take horsepower, your water pump and your generator and that stuff. But it‘s brake
horsepower, actually torque. Testing torque. That‘s what brake horsepower is, testing torque.
Foot pounds. Well the horsepower is 33,000 foot pounds.
Interviewer: I keep thinking of things about that car in the museum. I went to see it; I think it was
yesterday afternoon, because it‘s locked up in a room there.
Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah, they had it on display two years in a glass – in the entrance to that
looking at the stars stuff. It was beautiful there. But they, they got this room, and it‘s all cluttered
up. It‘s typical of nineteen hundred. It‘s an old blacksmith shop or something.
Interviewer: How fast would that car go?
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Mr. Blomstrom: Thirty-five miles an hour.
Interviewer: Oh really?
Mr. Blomstrom: That‘s about all it would do.
Interviewer: Well that‘s pretty fast.
Mr. Blomstrom: We had motor, we had bicycle police, traffic cops in Detroit, on Belle Isle. They
couldn‘t catch me. They couldn‘t pedal. What they‘d do, they‘d cross the Island and catch me on
the other side. That‘s the way they‘d put their bicycles; they‘d get another cop, and they‘d put
their bicycles on the ground, and I‘d have to go out on the grass, which is not permitted. They‘d
take me over to the station, there‘s a station on Belle Isle. Been there ever since I can remember.
And get another policeman and they‘d cross the Island midway, and I‘d go way around the tip of
the island. And they‘d catch me on the other side of the island. They had their bicycles on the
road, the roads weren‘t very wide. And of course in order to go by them I‘d have to go out on the
grass, and of course they stood about each side there. So then they‘d take me over to the police
station on Belle Island, been one there ever since—still there as far as I know. Of course then I
would tell Dad. He says forget it, which I did. He knew all the judges I guess. They used to come
down and borrow the boats on Friday, go up to the flats. I knew every judge because they‘d
come down there on a Friday afternoon after court and get one of those boats and go up to the
flats. A whole bunch of judges.
Interviewer: Where were the flats located?
Mr. Blomstrom: That‘s the beginning of the St. Clair River. It‘s at the north end of Lake St.
Clair. You went through St. Clair River. The flats is the first part. It‘s swampy and islands, so
dozens of islands there. There‘s that big Indian island there, the Walpole. It‘s across from that
park where the boat used to go up to ___ park. That‘s below Algonac, see. Algonac is where Gar
[Garfield] Wood is. We built the propellers for Gar Wood‘s, all his speed boats. He had the
world‘s record until now; we‘ve gone way beyond it. This fellow out in Lake Washington in
Seattle has gone, what is it, over two hundred miles an hour I guess. Of course they‘re really not
boats anymore, they‘re practically out of the water, they‘re hydroplanes! They have steps in
them. But we built them for Gar Wood and well, he had the world‘s record, a hundred and
twenty-six miles. We built all the propellers and most of the --- tugboats we built the propellers.
We sold that to Michigan Wheel; I say we, it‘s Federal-Mogul. Michigan Wheel still makes a
Federal equipoise propeller, which we had a patent on. Most of the --- tugboats used to buy them
from us, I don‘t know if they‘re buying them from Michigan now. Michigan‘s right here in town.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Blomstrom: Its part of a, I don‘t know if some corporation has bought them out.
Interviewer: Yeah. It used to be that Mr. Evenson was president of it. Charles.
�19
Mr. Blomstrom: I don‘t know. I met a lot of them when they were considering about, something
about a machine they were building for to machine the propellers, the production. Course they
use it for making patterns, I know. But they were going to make a machine to do the production,
which according to me is not according to ―Hoyle‖. It‘s not necessary. You know the pitch, the
pitch is the one turn is a pitch, like a thread. The ones we made for Gar Wood were only
seventeen inches in diameter but was twenty inch pitch. They had two of them, one going this
way and one going opposite so his boat wouldn‘t tip over, see. Like the English[man]… Kaye
Don tipped over. I watched him, I saw his boat tip right over. He got in the wave of a Gar Wood
boat that was leaving, and his propeller come out of the water, there was no resistance. And the
torque of that just took his boat, which was very light, and tipped it right over and he went in the
drink. I saw it. I was only five hundred feet away from it when it happened. Well Gar Wood was
smart, he put two propellers on, going in the opposite direction, so you didn‘t get that chance of
tipping over if the wheels went out of the water. He was smart, smart old duck. He died, didn‘t
he, a little while ago? I think so.
Interviewer: I don‘t know.
Mr. Blomstrom: He was very old. I knew him, met him. Course they had the Gar Wood... they
made that dump truck, hydraulic dump truck. We made a lot of parts for them. I knew all the
brothers. There was a bunch of brothers! There were about pretty near as many of them as the
Fisher brothers. They were seven I guess. I knew a couple of them, Ed the youngest.
Interviewer: I think you ought to write that book.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well, a lot of people have said that. I think Mr. Frankfurter said it too, and some
of the other people. I did write a book on bearings for the company. Millions of those were sent
out. It‘s a very small book. It‘s been in most of the libraries now around the country. Some
people wanted a thousand. The Ordinance Department, where is that, Fort Benning in Georgia
where they had the Ordinance? Well a major came up from there one day, I didn‘t know he was
coming, and the office wanted to see Mr. Blomstrom. The girl says, there‘s a major from Fort
Benning here. He wanted a thousand of those little books. They were just small, about Reader‘s
Digest, you could just stick it in your pocket. It was run serially in an automobile magazine for
eight months. So we give him a thousand, it didn‘t cost much. They‘re in most of the
universities, they wrote, they sent. Course now they put out a hardcover, but this was just soft
cover. But it was about probably the first small bearing book on servicing, you know taking care
of bearings, automobile engine bearings, not ball or roller bearings. So that‘s the only writing.
It‘s difficult for me to write, but I suppose I should. It‘s too late now, I guess.
Interviewer: You could always dictate it.
Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah, I bought a machine, I have a machine. I bought it for that purpose. I
haven‘t used it but once I guess, twice, but not for that purpose. I bought a machine, nothing as
�20
elaborate as your machine here. It‘s just a simple…has about the same kind of a microphone I
guess. Micro—what do you call it?
Interviewer: No, it‘s a microphone, yes.
Mr. Blomstrom: Yes, I have that. Some of them have it built right into the case. I see some of the
new ones advertised. Yeah, I have one.
Interviewer: How do you keep busy these days?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well I‘m rummaging see, getting stuff here. I‘m going to dispose of a lot of
books and things. I don‘t know what I‘m going to do with all these pictures; of course Mr.
Frankfurter would like them. I don‘t if he ever saw this; I don‘t think I had that at the museum.
These others I had at the museum for a couple years, until they moved the Queen car where it is
now.
Interviewer: I see. You said your cousin restored that car?
Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah, I think a second or third cousin.
Interviewer: Who‘s he?
Mr. Blomstrom: His name is Bloomstrom, they put too many o‘s in it. He lives in Sparta,
Michigan. He works here in Grand Rapids. He works in the furniture business - woodwork. He‘s
a young fellow, compared to me of course, he‘s about half my age. But he‘s restored a lot of
cars, for himself and for others. He does a beautiful job.
Interviewer: But you were the one who actually found it?
Mr. Blomstrom: Oh yes. Well, one of our people at the—we have a, Federal-Mogul had a plant
at Lancaster, that‘s the Amish town you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Blomstrom: He says there‘s a Queen car over here. And this fellow had an old car, one very
rare car. Everybody down there has an old car. Every town has people who recondition old cars...
a Lancaster and Valley Forge and around Pennsylvania. So he says there‘s a Queen car over
here. Well, I says, can you find out when it‘s convenient to see it? Yeah. I‘d been looking for
one; I‘d located seven you know, which is pretty good for being that old. They run from—there‘s
this nineteen six four cylinder in Detroit, he won‘t sell it to me. He has the largest collection of
old cars in the world. The magazines say he has six hundred, he told me he has a thousand. I
believe it because they‘re in sheds. If you put up in a straight line or in a U they‘d be eight
hundred feet long and he‘s got five deep standing on the ends. So he says bring down a suit, you
know get a suit, a coverall suit. So I stopped at Sears Roebuck in Highland Park there and bought
one. The only time I ever used it, I gave it to a customer. And he says I‘ve got one of your
�21
father‘s cars. I says what is it? He says it‘s a four cylinder nineteen six Queen. Looked like a
Packard you know. There‘s a four cylinder up there and to the left, at the top, see it looks like a
Packard. Now maybe, I don‘t know who swiped who, but, they were swiping designs those days
as they are today. And everybody you‘d show that car too would say that‘s a Packard, and it was
a Queen, four cylinder. Well anyway. I got off the track.
Interviewer: Well, you were going to go look at these cars.
Mr. Blomstrom: Yeah, well, I bought that and on the way over there, he says, Mr.—we call him
Barney Pullerd, P-U-L-L-E-R-D, I guess he‘s still living. He has the largest collection of old cars
in the world. The last time he called me up here, two years ago, about seven, eight years ago he
says when you gonna write that story about your father for me? Cause he wants it you know.
Well, I says, I haven‘t got around to it. He says, I‘m gonna put up a building now, he says, and
I‘m going to show all my cars in a museum and charge like all the others are doing, Florida and
out west. I don‘t know if he‘s done it, I haven‘t talked to him for seven, eight years. He has, the
oldest car is a German eighteen ninety-seven, and all his cars are real old, I mean none of this
new stuff, twenty, thirty years, they‘re all old. From eighteen ninety-seven, I would say, to
nineteen twenty probably. He has almost every car imaginable. He‘s still looking for a Lion car. I
haven‘t told him I located one in this museum out by Rushmore. He‘s probably found out. He‘s
advertised in every…he says, that was the finest car your father built, he says, that would outrun
any car even a Stutz in those days.
Interviewer: How many Lions were built?
Mr. Blomstrom: Well I don‘t know exactly. I would say it‘s between a thousand and fifteen
hundred.
Interviewer: I see.
Mr. Blomstrom: You see, the Queen cars there were only ten a week made. It was all hand work
practically. He bought the bodies and a lot of the other axels. The axels were made by WestonMott in Flint, you know that‘s Mott, you heard-Interviewer: Yes, sure.
Mr. Blomstrom: Mott. The General Motors had more stock than anybody else outside of the
Dupont family. I met him; I saved the life of his financial secretary twice by giving him blood
you know. I had a hemolytic strep and it took me three years to come back on that. I lost seventy
pounds, I was in Harper Hospital. I gave blood side-by-side in bed to this fellow twice and saved
him. They looked all the records of the hospitals over Michigan and I was the only one who
could save this boy‘s life. You got to give him blood serum within twelve months when you
fought it off. They found my name and they got me to give him some blood and in a week he
was on his way to Arizona, and riding horseback in two weeks. The next year he got pneumonia
�22
and I gave him some more blood cause the same thing happened. I met Charlie Mott there, he
was tall as I was, six foot five. I thought he‘d give me a million bucks, but he never did. Well,
the Queen car had Weston-Mott axels front and rear; they were made in Flint. They moved from
Elmira, New York, I believe it is, somewheres in New York State, to Flint. That‘s how he got
there. And of course, General Motors bought the plant and he got stock, and he never sold his
share, he kept it, so now it‘s being sold. Well he was getting there at one time an awful lot,
several million dollars in dividends every year when it used to be two dollars or something.
Yeah, he had more stock I think than any individual, but the Dupont family probably had more
as a family.
Interviewer: Did you like Mott personally?
Mr. Blomstrom: I only met him as his secretary, financial secretary. I seen him lots of times, but
I never met him. I used to go up to Chevrolet and Buick, of course we made bearings, some of
them, for them. Not so much Buick, but one time we made forty percent of the Chevrolet until
they make their own now I guess down in Dayton Ohio, Moraine Products. I knew two of the
Chevrolet brothers, you know there were three: Gaston, Arthur, and Louie. The last time I talked
to Louie, he was assembling front drives on those twelve cars that Edsel ordered for Harry Miller
for the Indianapolis track. He wanted me to design the bearings for him, I did, which I did, they
were special. See they go up to seventy-two hundred rpm, those four cylinder Millers. Harry
Miller came to my office and he had Preston Tucker with him. He introduced me to him. Of
course the big thing, they say he designed the Tucker car. He didn‘t design that any more than I
did. He was an expediter that‘s all he was, he was no engineer, Tucker. I knew him quite well.
And I got to meet Harry Miller. We made bearings…There was five cars that were got down to
the Indianapolis track, but they had other front end troubles, steering gear trouble, none of them
finished the Ford cars. The old man didn‘t know about it I guess. They assembled them in a
building down on, West Lafayette there, about a mile from town. I was down there quite often.
Preston Tucker was a handsome fellow. He died quite young, in the forties wasn‘t it? Low
forties?
Interviewer: I think so.
Mr. Blomstrom: I talked to him over there in Chicago. They showed the car there in that big
building that Dodge ran during the war making engines. He was quite a talker. They raised a lot
of money but a lot of people lost a lot of money too. They sold a lot of stock. Anybody who
wanted to handle the car, dealer had to put down four thousand dollars I believe, something like
that. Don‘t quote me too much on that. What are you going to do with this?
Interviewer: This will go to the, well I‘m sure the museum wants a copy of it, and a copy will go
to the Grand Valley State Colleges.
Mr. Blomstrom: Are they interested in this?
�23
Interviewer: They have an oral history department.
Mr. Blomstrom: I see.
Interviewer: So, you‘ll be talking for the next few hundred years.
Mr. Blomstrom: The Swedes in Detroit, what they call the Detroit Council, Swedish Council
Incorporated, I know fifty percent of them, of course I could have been a charter member if I‘d a
stayed in Detroit. They just wrote a book last year as a project for the centennial, or was it
bicentennial isn‘t it? I have a copy here. They have quite a write-up about my father in there, and
they mention me too, and my father-in-law, he‘s right on the first page. He was one of the
founders of the Mamrelund church up here.
Interviewer: What‘s the name of the book?
Mr. Blomstrom: They Made a Difference.
Interviewer: They Made a Difference. Who published it, do you know?
Mr. Blomstrom: Aaronson, but I buy it through the friend of mine who‘s the secretary of the
Detroit Swedish Council, Signe Carlstrom I know her.
Interviewer: I presume that the local library would have a copy.
Mr. Blomstrom: I don‘t know. I bought several of the books to give to my nephews and nieces.
Of course what I was going to tell you was that it was a special project because of the king‘s visit
here. He was here last summer.
Interviwer: Yeah.
Mr. Blomstrom: Karl Gustof. Every Swedish king has got Karl Gustof in their name. That was
my grandfather‘s name, Karl Gustof Blomstrom. So they gave him several books, so my name
and my father‘s name and a lot of my relatives are in that palace in Stockholm. Well, they just
happened to put my name in, they got my father‘s write-up. In fact, this fellow that retired just
last year, the vice-chairman of General Motors Oscar Lundeen wrote it with – Jones, who was
the head of the big advertising agency there in Bloomfield Village, Bloomfield Center. Jones. I
don‘t know him, of course I know Oscar Lundeen real well. I‘ve known him since he was that
high; I knew his parents. I knew the three boys. One of them designed that Union Trust Building
downtown, Earl Lundeen.
Interviewer: Which building is that?
Mr. Blomstrom: The Union Bank and Trust.
Interviewer: Union Bank. The new building?
�24
Mr. Blomstrom: Well yeah, it‘s quite new. I don‘t know about the little building alongside, that‘s
named after the chairman isn‘t it? Frye Building.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mr. Blomstrom: But that‘s designed by Earl Lundeen. He and another fellow have a corporation
in New York City. That‘s Oscar‘s brother. There was three boys; I knew them all. There was
Edward, the youngest, Earl, and Oscar.
Interviewer: They were all in Detroit I take it?
Mr. Blomstrom: Oh yeah. Their father was the superintendent of the Detroit Screw Works and
then he went later, when he retired he went into real estate. But the boys have all done good.
Three boys. Well Oscar of course is a millionaire. He wrote this, and they start off with my
father, see, way back when designing the Queen car and building it.
Interviewer: Well we‘ve talked for about an hour I think, and I think maybe it‘s about time for
me to go home.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well if you want some more, just feel free to call up and come out.
Interviewer: I‘ll tell you, I‘ll play it back and see if I can-Mr. Blomstrom: I think it‘s too much of myself and not my father.
Interviewer: Maybe I can find that book and then read about your father and then come back and
ask you some more questions.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well it‘s just a page or two in there about him. It‘s on the first page. Of course,
they asked me last year to write about my father, but I was very miserable, I‘d been in the
hospital and I didn‘t write. They don‘t need to write to me about it anyway, all they got to do is
go the library, which they must have done because they got stuff there that I sent to the library,
word for word!
Interviewer: Thank you very, very much. I appreciate this. It‘s been a very interesting hour.
Mr. Blomstrom: Well I bore people to death talking automobiles.
Interviewer: No, not at all.
Mr. Blomstrom: I wish I was a good writer, I could write a book. I knew most of the early
people. The only one I didn‘t know was R.E. Olds, Ransom E. Olds. I know the history of the
company and all that. You see, he made the first car in Michigan, R.E. Olds, Ransom E. Olds.
That‘s his initials, R.E. O. for the REO you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
�25
Mr. Blomstrom: He quit the business you know. He was going to have cattle up north here. He
bought a ranch up here, or it‘s called a ranch. But his cronies in Lansing got him back to start the
REO. Of course it sold out long ago; the family isn‘t in it anymore. General Motors, of course—
no it‘s not, it was White, they were independent weren‘t they? There‘s White Motors and then
Diamond T Motors, and then now I guess it‘s gone. It was a good car, a big heavy car like the
old Pierce Arrow and the Locomobile. They were built like a locomobile, locomotive, heavy you
know, big heavy cars.
Interviewer: Ok.
A
G
American Motors · 3
General Motors · 3, 12, 16, 22, 24, 26
Grumback, John · 8
B
Belle Isle · 11, 19
Blomstrom Motor Company · 2
Blomstrom Thirty · 2
Blomstrom, Carl G. (Grandfather) · 6, 8, 9, 24
Blomstrom, Carl Herman (Father) · 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11,
12, 14, 15, 22, 24, 25
Bloomer Hill · 7, 8
K
Kaufman Family · 16
Kettering, Charles · 18
L
Detroit Swedish Council · 24
Dupont Family · 22, 23
Leland, Henry M. · 14
Libbey-Owens-Ford Family · 17, 18
Lincoln Motor Car Company · 13, 14
Lion car · 4, 18, 22
Lundeen Family · 24, 25
E
M
Edison, Thomas · 10, 13, 17
Miller, Harry · 23
Mott, Charlie · 22, 23
D
F
Federal-Mogul Company · 12, 15, 19, 21
Ford Motor Company · 3, 5, 10, 13, 14, 17, 18, 23
Ford, Edsel · 16, 17, 23
Ford, Henry · 10, 11
Frontmobile · 3
O
Old Lion Fence Company · 4
P
Paige Motor Car Company · 13
Pullerd, Barney · 22
�26
Q
T
Queen car · 2, 4, 5, 15, 21, 22, 23, 25
Tucker, Preston · 23
R
W
Rex (car) · 3
Weston-Mott · 22, 23
Wood, Garfield · 19, 20
Wyandotte Chemicals · 17
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5974db0100116cc68e025d1077512441.mp3
c8bc4c4fcba754dc9dc84b7d455f4032
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
Creator
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Various
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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application/pdf; audio/mp3
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eng
Type
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RHC-23
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1971 - 1977
Sound
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RHC-23_56Blomstrom
Title
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Blomstrom, Lowell
Creator
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Blomstrom, Lowell
Description
An account of the resource
Lowell Blomstrom was born on March 22, 1893 in Grand Rapids. His father was an inventor and pioneer in the automobile industry. In 1904 Carl Blomstrom introduced the Queen Automobile produced in Detroit by the Blomstrom Motor Company. Lowell Blomstrom also worked in the automobile industry. He died in 1979.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Text
Sound
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application/pdf
audio/mp3
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Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
Date
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1977
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cce4fd468b90d1cc20ebe196f5384581.pdf
7458ebb0199cafd172e0d47ca039207e
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collection, RHC-23
Mrs. Ford McLachlan
Interviewed in 1974
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010-bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #54 (1:02:34)
Biographical Information
Mrs. McLachlan was born Veronica Elizabeth Josephine Jungbaecker on 1 August 1883 in
Grand Rapids, Michigan. The family name is pronounced ―Youngbaker.‖ She was the daughter
of John Jungbaecker and Johanna Frances Keister. The parents were married in the Netherlands
about 1872. John Jungbaecker died 20 November 1923 in Grand Rapids, Michigan at the age of
77. Johanna died in Grand Rapids 5 May 1936 in Grand Rapids at the age of 87. Both of Mrs.
McLachlan’s parents were buried in Mt. Calvary Cemetery.
Veronica was married 20 February 1920 in Grand Rapids to Ford H. McLachlan. Ford was born
in Grand Rapids in August 1887, the son of John Norman and Harriett E. (Hooker) McLachlan
who were married in Grand Rapids on 27 April 1882. John McLachlan was born in Canada April
1860 and died in Grand Rapids on 11 September 1944 at the age of 84. Harriet was born in
Michigan in 1859 and died in Grand Rapids on 24 April 1943. John and Harriet were buried in
Fulton Street Cemetery in Grand Rapids.
Ford McLachlan died in Grand Rapids on 14 January 1943. Veronica died in Grand Rapids on
21 December 1988. Both were buried in Mt. Calvary Cemetery.
___________
Interviewer: You said you and your sisters would go there [Crescent Mill] collecting.
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, when Dad used to do work for them before he built that house, you see…
Interviewer: I see.
Mrs. McLachlan: And the Voigt family lived on the West Side.
Interviewer: I see, before they built the Voigt House they lived over on the West Side.
Mrs. McLachlan: Near the mill you see. The mill was on the corner. [She is talking to another
person here]
Interviewer: And he worked for them. Before the building, what kind of work did he do before
building? Always building or just carpentry?
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, when he was a young man and after he left school he took up carpentry
work. When he was eighteen, he went into the army, of course, that was compulsory over in
�2
Germany. When he was through with the army, he emigrated into Holland. His father had
preceded him, because his farther was living in Middleburg. Dad was working in Vlissingen? on
a big railway station, depots they call them here. And that’s where he met my mother was in
Holland.
Interviewer: Yes, And when did they come to this country?
Mrs. McLachlan: In eighteen seventy-three.
Interviewer: Yes,
Mrs. McLachlan: They settled in Grand Haven, and my older sister Mary was born there. Then
after a year or so there, Dad said there were no prospects here so I am going to move on to the
bigger city. Of course, he heard Grand Rapids was a bigger city than Grand Haven.
Interviewer: Did he come to this part of the country mainly because of his wife’s Holland
connection? How did they happen to come to Michigan?
Mrs. McLachlan: I will tell you what, when my mother was ten years old, of course her father
died, and she had a little brother seven. They had gone into another city to collect some money;
you know how they did that years ago - they didn’t mail it. You had to go and collect it. Some
little inheritance, maybe it was—I never knew. They contracted, there was an epidemic in the
city, and they both contracted this disease and they came home and they both died.
Interviewer: Oh, my.
Mrs. McLachlan: Her mother meanwhile had met a Hollander from Grand Haven, who was
traveling over there. He was a widower, a Mr. Ball, and he wanted to marry my grandmother, so
she said alright and so she came to this country and she left my mother there alone with the
grandparents.
Interviewer: Oh, I see, so she had a natural want to come over here.
Mrs. McLachlan: When she came here, she hadn’t seen her mother in fifteen years.
Interviewer: Then, your father came up to Grand Rapids because there was more work here.
Mrs. McLachlan: He thought there would be. He was working on boat down there; you know
finishing up the cabins and that.
Interviewer: So he was a skilled finish carpenter.
Mrs. McLachlan: Oh yes, of course that was German legendary know how. Even Ralph Voigt
said that in his letter, in his article in the ―Wonderland‖. When they came to Grand Rapids the
population was only sixteen thousand five-hundred here in eighteen seventy-four. I read that in
the paper a year or so ago, so I kept track of all that.
�3
Interviewer: Not a big city, but it seemed like a big city for this part of the country then.
Mrs. McLachlan: And there were Indians here on the island in the Grand River and Campau, if
you read the story of Campau.
Interviewer: They used to get paid off every year. They paid off the Indians every year. Your
father then became a builder as soon as he got here.
Mrs. McLachlan: Now right away, he worked as a carpenter, and I think when I was born in
eighteen eighty-three, he just started his business.
Interviewer: My, are you ninety-one years old?
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, I will be ninety-two in a few months.
Interviewer: You’re remarkable.
Mrs. McLachlan: I don’t know.
Interviewer: You don’t know, I’ve seen some people ten or fifteen years younger that didn’t look
as good.
Mrs. McLachlan: That’s a good age too in the seventies, of course, I think that is young, because
I was active in my seventies and eighties. Just my eyesight now that has… I can read the finest
print; I could until just a few weeks ago but now I am using (?), but sometimes I am better off
not using it.
Interviewer: What did your father do when he (?)
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, he was a carpenter for about ten years after he came here. See the
language barrier was what held him up. He learned the English language. Then he told my
mother I am going into business and she said, ―I will tell you something.‖ (Dad was awfully
quiet) ―Dad if you are going into business, you are going to have to start talking.‖ She said he
never stopped after that.
Interviewer: Did you speak English at home?
Mrs. McLachlan: Always, I still don’t see how they learned to read and write. I just don’t know.
Interviewer: As far as you’re concerned, when you were growing up you spoke English at home.
Mrs. McLachlan: I never remember them speaking German except when some of their German
friends came over.
Interviewer: And they didn’t teach you German either?
Mrs. McLachlan: No, we went to a German school.
�4
Interviewer: You did?
Mrs. McLachlan: We went to German Parochial School. And they kept up these old languages,
like the Polish school taught Polish, they wanted their children... Well some of them they had to
because they couldn’t communicate with their children unless they knew how to talk Polish or
German or something. My folks they started to learn right away. Anyway my father was the
progressive one in our family.
Interviewer: Because he went into business for himself. When he went into business for himself,
did he go into it as a builder?
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, a contractor and builder. Well, you saw, this is one of the last billheads
and it is all yellow with age. The first decade of this century,
Interviewer: That’s right, it would be nineteen ten and on up.
Mrs. McLachlan: And he retired in nineteen eleven. Oh, quite a while ago, Mrs. [Barbara]
Roelofs, when I talked with her which was three or four years ago, or three, anyway it was
before Ralph Voigt died, because I went over to the Voigt House because he invited me over
there…
Interviewer: Oh, did he?
Mrs. McLachlan: …after that article came out in the ―Wonderland‖. What he said to the reporter
from the Press was, he said, ―They don’t build houses like this anymore. This was built by
artists.‖ Well, I just couldn’t resist the next day, I called him up and told him who I was and said
I am the last member of this family, of my father’s. I told him that and I couldn’t help but call
him up. He said, ―I want you to come over and see this house. If anybody’s entitled to see it you
are.‖ We had pictures, Ralph’s father had given my dad two pictures, oh they were about this
size; one was of the outside of the house and one of the beautiful stairway. And my mother had
them framed in little gold frames. And they hung in our dining room there was a sort of a niche
toward the living room where my father’s safe was. And she had hung them over the safe. And I
can remember looking at those pictures a hundred times. When they sold the old house and built
the new one, I don’t know what became of all these old pictures. I didn’t help my mother move
and I never knew what became of them. Unless they were put in a dresser in the attic at the new
house, but I never went up there.
Interviewer: Was the stairway special and did your father do that himself?
Mrs. McLachlan: No, he didn’t work at all, he never worked at the trade after he went into his
business.
Interviewer: I see, just a contractor, then?
�5
Mrs. McLachlan: He had some of the finest carpenters, craftsmen I would call them. One of
them was Ralph Lypse, he was good on stairways and mantelpieces and stuff like that.
Interviewer: And he carved them himself, that man carved the round…
Mrs. McLachlan: No they didn’t do any carving. That was all done in the factories by expert
carvers. Our factory that got out this work.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: I was too young to tell who got out all this interior finish. The Ocker and Ford
Company were the ones that did it. And my father was the president of that company for twenty
years.
Interviewer: I see.
Mrs. McLachlan: He started that company, he and Mr. Clark bought the land, built the factory
and had the stocked subscribed for.
Interviewer: I see.
Mrs. McLachlan: That was in the early eighties, before eighteen eighty-six because he went to
Germany in eighty-six, when my sister Anna was born. Anyway.
Interviewer: What was the name of the company again? Ocker and Ford.
Mrs. McLachlan: On Fourth Street, and the Voigts lived right there in our corner of Mount
Vernon, You know where Front Street is, all these people had their homes right along near the
factories where they worked because they had no transportation.
Interviewer: You had better be there.
Mrs. McLachlan: You had horses and buggies and the streetcar, that was all; and my dad bought
his first horse and buggy at that time and then, of course as the family grew so does the vehicle.
We had a two-seated cutter and a double-seated phaetons with the fringe on top. And then he had
two single buggies. We always had two horses as long as I can remember until the day he retired
and then he had a horse yet. Even after he had bought his cars, we had two cars later on and he
learned to drive he still had a horse. He was getting older, sixty five you know and he was
coming around the corner of Monroe and Bridge Street and he was going to cross the bridge and
he put his foot on the accelerator to get around the corner and a policeman stopped him and said
you are going too fast. But I wanted to get around the corner, the policeman told him you have to
slow down when you go around the corner,.
Interviewer: ...instead speeding up?
�6
Mrs. McLachlan: He was the funniest guy, full of life you know, wonderful sense of humor.
This lady wanted me to make up a list of the different homes that he built in the [thirties?].
These are old, I wrote these, this has been revised, there are a lot of things I didn’t think of until
later. That was my first copy; then I wrote this one over. Did I tell you he built the house that
Jack built out at Reed’s Lake?
Interviewer: No, I didn’t know that.
Mrs. McLachlan: That was sold, that was William Jack that owned the American Boxboard
Company.
Interviewer: Yes, yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: He had a awfully hard time getting started because he had no capital, he went
to the Goodspeeds, John. And he didn’t want any part of it. See, he didn’t know who to go to, of
course the Goodspeeds were in the real estate business and they made all kinds of money. And
later on in thirty-six when I worked for Harrison Goodspeed, just temporarily you know, to catch
up on some of the work. Mr. Perkins, who was a state bank examiner, was John Goodspeed’s
bookkeeper. He worked half days, that’s the way they were hired, but I was on full time. And
then Harrison, when I worked for him, I found out from their statements that Harrison had threehundred thousand dollars in that company and his father had five-hundred thousand dollars. You
see, they kept putting in money after it got going. They practically owned the thing.
Interviewer: Oh, for heaven’s sake.
Mrs. McLachlan: Of course the Jacks were quite well to do. I knew William Jack because, I’d
forgotten that my dad had built that house, that was when he was semi-retired and my brother
was taking care of it and his foremen. Mr. Jack came up to see me when I was working in the
Metz Building for Mr. Dykhouse lumber. He said to me, ―Are you Miss Jungbaecker? And I
said, ―Yes, I am.‖ He said, ―I’m Mr. Jack and I wanted to tell you that your brother wasn’t taking
care of his work out to the house.‖ ―Well‖, I said, ―the foremen are there, and Dad has good
foremen.‖ You see, Dad just financing the thing, he wasn’t really wasn’t active anymore and
wasn’t inspecting anymore. ―Well,‖ I said, ―I will go home tonight and tell my father.‖ But they
finished the job and …it’s a very beautiful home. I guess I was never in it.
Interviewer: Were you ever in Dr. Hake’s house?
Mrs. McLachlan: No, but that was sold to Judge Raymond Starr,
Interviewer: Raymond Starr, you said, yes!
Mrs. McLachlan: I don’t know who bought it when he retired and was in the nursing home, he
was at Olds Manor. Then his wife Minnie was out to Pilgrim Manor, not Pilgrim Manor the other
one the Porter Hills and she died. And I don’t know if this Judge Raymond Starr was, he was the
�7
last one. That’s right. Then there was the Wenzel Cuckerski home. Then there was the Bernhard
May home, the brother of Meyer May of the May Company downtown. Bernhard was from New
York, married a New York girl, he came back here to Grand Rapids with his wife and he wanted
to build a home so they got a hold of my dad and they built that house, and I’ve never seen it.
But his wife didn’t like it here so she wanted to move back to New York.
Interviewer: So they went back to New York, and sold the house.
Mrs. McLachlan: Sold the house to a Mr. Godfrey.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: He went through there and said, ―Who was the contractor and builder?‖ He
said, ―Mr. Jungbaecker.‖ ―I want to get in touch with him because he knew his business and I
want to remodel a few things and change a few things.‖
Interviewer: Now, were those houses built after the Voigt House?
Mrs. McLachlan: I know the Voigt [house] was because she was a Voigt girl you know?
Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Hake was Clara Voigt.
Mrs. McLachlan: And she was Ralph’s sister. And the Meyer [Bernhard?] May house? I was
quite young, because I remember him coming home to mother and saying what is a French
toilet?
Interviewer: Oh, oh.
Mrs. McLachlan: She said how would I know if you don’t. She said the plumbers and fitters will
know what it is.
Interviewer: They wanted a French toilet, huh?
Mrs. McLachlan: I never knew what that was at my age and my father didn’t know, and I got
down to Cuba in nineteen twenty-eight, I was in the Imperial hotel, three of us women and I
went to the bathroom and my gosh I must have pushed the wrong button or something and I got
all wet.
Interviewer: Oh, you had a bidet!
Mrs. McLachlan: So I found out what that was. I told them I got all wet and they said well that is
a French toilet. Well, my father never knew…
Interviewer: Were you in the Voigt House when it was being built? Were you around, then?
�8
Mrs. McLachlan: Ralph told me, he was going to Union High School when I was going to St.
Mary’s on the west side same street a couple of blocks away. And I use to see him as a kid, he
was a year older than I was. He told me that after school he went over there every night, every
afternoon after school and would talk to my father. All he could remember was that his name
was John. He said he had the plans up in the attic and he could find out. I said I can tell you what
his name was, and it is a hard one to remember and I spelled it out for him and he said yep, that’s
it. I said I suppose Ocker and Ford did the interior work and I said yes, my father was the
president over there and turned all the work over to them and I said yes he would. There was
something else here, the Bernhard May house. The C. A. Lindner home too, he was the manager
of Ocker and Ford Company when I worked there. I worked there, that was my first job. My
father put me in his office when I was sixteen years old. I worked there until I was about twentyfour and then they went into receivership. Mr. Dykhouse was one of the vice-presidents and so
was Mr. Robert Sherwood. Mr. Dykhouse and Dad and Mr. Sherwood were the receivers. Then
later on I went to work for Mr. Dykhouse when I was thirty years old. I have a long history of
my own life. The Maurice Shanahan home on Plainfield Avenue; I don’t know what Dad did up
there but I can remember him saying he was out in the yard and talking with Mr. Shanahan,
planning what they were going to do. But what he did there, I don’t remember. That’s the big
home, the Creston Mortuary bought this home way up on the hill and it was too hard getting up
there, so they built the mortuary down below. Why they kept the home for, I don’t know. But
Maurice Shanahan was with the Bissell Company. He was president of the Bissell Company for
years. We had a lot of good people, built the Evangeline Home.
Interviewer: I saw that, wasn’t that the predecessor to the Booth Memorial Hospital.
Mrs. McLachlan: That’s a lovely old building, the architecture was so much nicer than the
buildings are today. Take the buildings downtown they look like cracker boxes to me. Take the
old City Hall, that was architecture. Take the Voigt home, they call that a Queen Anne but I can’t
associate that with Queen Anne; I didn’t know they had homes built like that.
Interviewer: They can’t seem to be able to afford to do is any of that really elegant decorative
work on buildings nowadays. It looks very plain and functional.
Mrs. McLachlan: They used to do a lot more of something they call ????, not cheesecake, but
another name for it
Interviewer: I know, that jigsaw work, well it will come to me in the course
Mrs. McLachlan: Decoration on the…
Interviewer: Gingerbread.
�9
Mrs. McLachlan: Gingerbread and that’s right and that porch is so beautiful, that they had a
flooring of wood on that porch, and wondered how they could keep wood from, course they
used cypress for outdoors.
Interviewer: Is that what they used in that?
Mrs. McLachlan: Because that takes care water and stuff.
Interviewer: Do you remember how much it cost to build the Voigt House?
Mrs. McLachlan: No, I don’t.
Interviewer: I suppose at that time …
Mrs. McLachlan: It was a recession, in 1895 there was a terrific recession on.
Interviewer: That is interesting.
Mrs. McLachlan: Of course during that time, I can remember my mother saying… I was going to
have a white dress for my first communion, and Mary my older sister was going to make it for
me. You know we all made our own clothes in those days. There were no ready-made garments.
Interviewer: That’s right.
Mrs. McLachlan: And Mary was to make this white dress, and Mother said all your going to
have is a plain white dress. I said that’s alright who cares, I didn’t care about clothes. So I went
downtown a couple of days after that, with a girlfriend of mine from school. I went into the
Boston Store and saw this collaret with embroidery and a little lace and it would fit right over the
top of the dress and it was quite pretty. I said how much is that, she said that’s two dollars. And I
came home and told my mother about it, and I had never asked for anything. And I said to her,
Mother I saw a little collaret downtown that I thought it would look nice on this….I said that’s
alright it’s too much money and she said how much was it? And I said it was two dollars. She
stood and looked at me for the longest time, and then said you a are going to have that collaret, I
will give that money to you tomorrow and you go down and get that collaret.
Interviewer: When you went downtown in those days, you lived on the West side and you went
across Bridge Street?
Mrs. McLachlan: And then to the school and then across Bridge Street, turn north on Turner just
one block, really a block and a half and walk downtown over the Bridge Street Bridge and then
walk back home to the west side.
Interviewer: Did you know any other of the other Voigts, except Ralph.
Mrs. McLachlan: No, I knew Carl and Frank, and the oldest one was Frank and he was married
to a Miss Seyferth.
�10
Interviewer: Seyferth.
Mrs. McLachlan: Beautiful blonde woman, I used to see her so much on the west side they lived
on the west side too. And I even mentioned that to Carl, to Ralph, I remember your brother Frank
and his wife the blonde woman and he said wasn’t she beautiful and I said, I’ll say she was!
Interviewer: He was considerably older than Ralph, though Frank was, he was the oldest.
Mrs. McLachlan: You see there were three girls too in that family.
Interviewer: The girls were all in the middle and Frank and Carl and then the girls and then
Ralph. Ralph was the youngest.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, he was, he told me that.
Interviewer: And he never married.
Mrs. McLachlan: No, Carl did, then his wife died. When they got married the father said this is
it. You can never come back home.
Interviewer: Oh, really.
Mrs. McLachlan: He meant, if anything happened to them.
Interviewer: They would have to live away from home.
Mrs. McLachlan: And then (?) lost her husband.
Interviewer: But Clara did you go back home, after Dr. Hake died.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, she did.
Interviewer: Was that before her folks died?
Mrs. McLachlan: No, her father was dead. She came to our house and he (her dad, not Voigt
father). He was semi-retired but he would figure the jobs and that. She came over to the house
and said I want you to figure a plan I want to build a house. And dad said alright I’ll figure it for
you. And she came back and said oh, that’s way too high. Well, her father was the same way.
Dad said well if you want good work, that’s what I have to have, that much money. So she said
I’m going to forget about it. So the next year she came back again with another plan. And Dad
said didn’t you get anybody to build that house, yet? She said nope, I am not going to have
anybody else build it. I want you to figure this one.
Interviewer: So Mr. Voigt was close with his money too?
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, well of course, I wouldn’t say they were tight. He was just that type that
would say, oh. Gosh when we would go and collect some small bill, when Dad did some work
�11
for him on the old home on the west side. Dad would warn us, ―Don’t say one word. Now he’s
going to say what’s the matter with this John, he is trying to rob me.‖ Just sit still and he will pay
it. So, I went there a couple of times and presented the bill. He’d look at it and frown and say,
―My goodness that man is trying to rob me.‖ I would sit there and look at him and not say a word
and finally he’d say, ―Okay go downstairs and get the money.‖
Interviewer: The office was downstairs in the old house on the west side?
Mrs. McLachlan: No, the Crescent Mill.
Interviewer: Oh I see you went to the mill to collect.
Mrs. McLachlan: His office was upstairs in the mill. The bookkeeper and the other office help
were downstairs.
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
Mrs. McLachlan: That was before Ralph was in charge. Ralph went to colleges in the East, he
went to Andover and either Harvard or Yale. He told me that he had two Masters, he had two
degrees, anyway.
Interviewer: And he came back and was actively engaged in the mill.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes.
Interviewer: Was Carl also in the Milling business with his father?
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes.
Interviewer: Now his wife, did his wife die?
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, very nice looking woman too, I remember her.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: I use to see her in the mill, I knew people in the office there. Miss Annette
Klanderman worked there a long time, she was lame. And a Miss Diver. I didn’t know her as
well as I knew her sister but I knew who she was. They were good looking girls.
Interviewer: Somebody told us Mr. Voigt didn’t like to spend money on electric light either.
Mrs. McLachlan: Didn’t he?
Interviewer: No, he used to tell them hang a bare bulb in the office and put all three desks around
that light bulb because they only could have one bulb for three people. Maybe that was just a
story.
�12
Mrs. McLachlan: (?) he was quite frugal like all the Germans are.
Interviewer: He wanted value for his money’s worth, obviously.
Mrs. McLachlan: …He came over with the Herpolsheimers. He started in the Herpolsheimer
building. I was in that store.
Interviewer: I see you put a note on this saying your father put the first escalator in
Herpolsheimer’s.
Mrs. McLachlan: That was in the first Herpolsheimer building. You see the old
HerpolsheimerError! Bookmark not defined. when he was with Voigt, was up there further
near where the ? drug store was later on, right in the middle of that next block between Ionia and
Ottawa. And I used to go in there and shop and they still have that name up on the building if
you go down East Fulton Street you can see it up there Herpolsheimer, Voigt-Herpolsheimer.
Interviewer: It is still up there? I would like to see that.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes. My nephew told me that. I’ve seen that name up there too a good many
times, but never gave it a thought. If I had known this was going to happen, I would have saved
those pictures that Mr. Voigt gave me.
Interviewer: Too bad you didn’t save the pictures of the interior of the house.
Mrs. McLachlan: Well it was just the stairway.
Interviewer: That is such a beautiful stairway.
Mrs. McLachlan: I can remember my dad coming home, I was twelve and my dad would come
home telling my mother, he used to talk about things once in a while and we kids would hear it.
He said, ―Mother, you know what the people are doing, they are laying the flooring in the Voigt
House. You know they have to walk around in their stocking feet. There might be nails and
cleats on the bottoms of their shoes. And that wood didn’t dare to be scratched.‖ It had this
parquet flooring, just the border around in the foyer. That was imported.
Interviewer: It was?
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, it was.
Interviewer: Where did they get that from, Germany then?
Mrs. McLachlan: I imagine so. They came from Bavaria. He told me that.
Interviewer: But the rest of the wood, the regular oak for the flooring came from this country.
And you said cypress for the outside.
�13
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, that’s what they used to use for porches, because it holds water and
won’t break down. I would think in that length of time that they would have to put on new
flooring on that porch. It wouldn’t last that long.
Interviewer: Maybe, I don’t know. We’ll ask about that. It may be that’s the original flooring.
That building is so sound, it really doesn’t deteriorate.
Mrs. McLachlan: That’s the way things were built, years go.
Interviewer: Yes,
Mrs. McLachlan: Everybody built their homes that way. And in their basement they have walnut
beams.
Interviewer: The interior of the house has beautiful woodwork in it. And it is beautifully kept up.
Mrs. McLachlan: Is it oak?
Interviewer: Well, what interested me was in the drawing room, the library and the hall it is oak.
In the downstairs bedroom it looks to me like cherry, It is beautiful, beautiful wood, polished.
Mrs. McLachlan: What color is it?
Interviewer: The cherry in the bedroom is the regular red cherry color, beautiful and very close
grained like cherry, and it is the deep rich red.
Mrs. McLachlan: Cherry is wonderful.
Interviewer: And it is so close grained that you know it is not mahogany, No mahogany is a
wider grain. Looks to me like cherry wood and it looks so pretty how could they left it out
of…..You know they have oak in the Music Room and …
Mrs. McLachlan: Oak was a big thing in those days.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: Especially quarter-sawed oak.
Interviewer: Quarter-sawed oak.
Mrs. McLachlan: We had it in our home, too.
Interviewer: Do you know anything about that stenciling around the top in the library? Who did
that?
Mrs. McLachlan: I don’t even remember that.
�14
Interviewer: Well, there is some kind of stencil pattern up around the edge of the library.
Mrs. McLachlan: Didn’t they say one time, that one of the girls did that?
Interviewer: They did say the family did some in either the dining room or library.
Mrs. McLachlan: Oh, they have some in the dining room too.
Interviewer: There is some painted work up around the top of the dining room. Then there is
some wall paper, no, not paper, this looks like fabric on the walls.
Mrs. McLachlan: It is fabric, it is tapestry.
Interviewer: Yes, tapestry, there is furring strips behind it.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, they need that to hold it. But they’ve got the damask in the living room.
The walls are all covered in damask. The second living room was the music room.
Interviewer: Yes,
Mrs. McLachlan: And that had a piano in it -- an upright. The thing I missed in the home like
that would be a beautiful grandfather clock. Instead they have this big giant mirror, this huge
thing. On the other landing there were some plants, artificial plants of some kind.
Interviewer: There is a grandfather’s clock, but it is down in the hall.
Mrs. McLachlan: Where is it?
Interviewer: Now, is that the one you remember seeing?
Mrs. McLachlan: I don’t remember seeing a grandfather’s clock
Interviewer: There is one in the hall.
Mrs. McLachlan: See, there were so many things we saw that I probably forgot.
Interviewer: I think if you go with more than one or two people I think it is hard to see
everything.
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, there was just my niece and I.
Interviewer: Just you and your niece?
Mrs. McLachlan: Oh yes, we didn’t go on [a tour], it wasn’t open then yet…
Interviewer: You went before it was even open.
Mrs. McLachlan: He was still alive.
�15
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
Mrs. McLachlan: He was sick.
[END OF SECTION ONE]
[SECTION TWO]
Mrs. McLachlan: You will revise that?
Interviewer: No, it’s alright; I’ll just take off the part that had to do with the Voigt House off the
tape, if that’s alright.
Mrs. McLachlan: Is it off now?
Interviewer: It’s on.
Mrs. McLachlan: It is?
Interviewer: It won’t bother you, I hope. What we’ll just take the stuff to do with the Voigt
House off the tape. Sometimes if you just sit and talk, you learn more about. When did you go
with your niece to the house?
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, when I called him (Mr. Voigt), this was in the paper earlier about
nineteen seventy, in the Wonderland. And he wanted me to come over. Well, I have been having
trouble with my eyes and it hadn’t been operated on yet, I didn’t think about it until later and I
thought my nephew would go with me, Arthur, who died in January. He wanted to see it and all
that, but he, I couldn’t pin him down to an appointment. So in the fall, I said to my niece, not
Mrs. Buist, will you take me over to the Voigt House? And she said, I sure will. I called up and
this housekeeper answered and she said just a minute, I’ll call the nurse. I thought, gee a nurse,
and so she called the nurse, and she said ―Mr. Voigt has been in the hospital and he’s had had a
heart attack. He’s home now but I am here taking care of him.‖ I said ―Well, I’ll just have to
forget about it.‖ She said, ―No, no don’t say that‖ she said, ―I’ll talk to him about it and you call
me back Monday morning.‖ This was on a Saturday morning when I called him. So I said
alright. So I called her about eleven o’clock and she said, ―Mr. Voigt said you should come in
about two o’clock and I will take you through.‖ Between two and four, anyway. So we went over
there, she took us through and showed us a lot of things, I was intrigued with the dining room
quite a bit, and also that brass bed and that huge dresser in that one bedroom.
Interviewer: Isn’t that pretty?
Mrs. McLachlan: I didn’t even notice what kind of spread he had on there. I was so intrigued
with the bed and the dresser; I didn’t know what else was in the room at all.
Interviewer: Was he in the downstairs bedroom at that time?
�16
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, he was, but I didn’t see him.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: And so she took us through Dr. and Mrs. Hake’s room, and she called attention
to this beautiful secretary that the doctor had, and then we went down through the dining room
and the other rooms. I don’t remember what I was going to say. Yes, and another thing was in
the library, but I must have missed it, but I was always crazy about these big world globes, you
know. I always thought when I grew up I wanted one of those and a big dictionary, an
unabridged dictionary. I couldn’t remember seeing one there. I didn’t remember too much what
was in that room except the fireplace and this housekeeper was watching TV (television) and we
didn’t stand there long, but there was a beautiful bookcase there.
Interviewer: Yes, full of old books.
Mrs. McLachlan: There was another bookcase in another room somewhere that was filled with
books too.
Interviewer: After Mr. Voigt died, some of the furniture that was in there when you saw it was
taken by relatives, but all the old furniture was upstairs in the attic so they brought that down.
The furniture that is in there now, is the old furniture that was in the house when Mr. and Mrs.
Voigt were alive.
Mrs. McLachlan: They had a lot of Louis the Fifteenth, is it?
Interviewer: Yeah and they had some of the horsehair sofas, that sort of thing. And then some
beautiful imported stuff, I guess.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, they had two imported chairs they were carved, little straight back chairs,
you know.
Interviewer: That stuff went to the relatives.
Mrs. McLachlan: Those were very valuable I thought; and there was a music box underneath a
seat of one. And this nurse, she played it
Interviewer: She did?
Mrs. McLachlan: After she took us, I thought the house looked kind of cluttered, there was so
much furniture in those two little rooms, it looked to me like they shoved lots of stuff in there,
with….
Interviewer: Without taking anything else out.
�17
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, and without getting it arranged in a proper way. Well, that was my
impression anyway. But those two chairs intrigued me, and there was a beautiful big rocker that
was carved, a high backed rocker.
Interviewer: Is that the one with corn ears on top; that has the ears of corn on the top?
Mrs. McLachlan: I don’t remember that.
Interviewer: There is a beautiful high back rocker that has corn…
Mrs. McLachlan: Is that still there?
Interviewer: Yes, that’s still there.
Mrs. McLachlan: I was intrigued with those cotton curtains at the windows, with the wide lace.
Interviewer: Beautiful lace all….
Mrs. McLachlan: How could they wash those and keep them from…
Interviewer: I think probably they were washed by hand.
Mrs. McLachlan: Must have been.
Interviewer: The story we have is that there were two sets of curtains for each window.
Mrs. McLachlan: I thought it was two sets of shades?
Interviewer: Well now, the story to us was that there two sets of curtains to each window. So
when one was taken down to be washed they put the other set up. This meant that there wasn’t as
much wear on each set…
Mrs. McLachlan: No, probably not.
Interviewer: This meant that they were in good condition.
Mrs. McLachlan: Cotton, they must have been wonderful cotton.
Interviewer: I don’t know because I can’t tell cotton or linen in a case like that, but I think most
were cotton. A lot of that was handmade lace you know, the old Battenberg lace on some of
those beautiful curtains.
Mrs. McLachlan: They had a lot of beautiful things in there but today the people today don’t
appreciate those things. But, I lived in that period and I know they were an affluent society, when
you had lace curtains at your windows you were considered affluent.
Interviewer: Yes…You father must have been pretty affluent, wasn’t he himself…?
�18
Mrs. McLachlan: Pretty what?
Interviewer: You father must have been a pretty affluent himself, if he was a good builder.
Mrs. McLachlan: At one time, yes. He had quite a bit of money.
Interviewer: Yes, because…
Mrs. McLachlan: But you see there was no Social Security in those days, no nothing; and they
had to save their money and he had at all in real estate. It seemed to me that everything he sold,
he had quite a bit of real estate and a cottage down at Spring Lake which we loved.
Interviewer: How did you get out to the cottage?
Mrs. McLachlan: Not the Greyhound, but the interurban.
Interviewer: It was a railway then or a bus?
Mrs. McLachlan: No, it was a big bus, just like the Greyhounds, but bigger I think. They went on
this electric rail. I think the tracks were electric.
Interviewer: It was like electric a railway, I know there was an interurban between here and
Spring Lake.
Mrs. McLachlan: This was to Spring Lake and Muskegon.
Interviewer: Now when did your father pass on?
Mrs. McLachlan: In twenty, no, nineteen twenty-three.
Interviewer: So he retired in nineteen eleven.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes.
Interviewer: And lived about twelve years after that. Was your mother alive all those years?
Mrs. McLachlan: Oh, yes she died when she was eighty-eight, almost eighty-eight.
Interviewer: Oh, she stayed on.
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, I came from pretty good stock …
Interviewer: How many children in the family? You mentioned a couple.
Mrs. McLachlan: Nine, three of them died before I was born, they all died in one week,
diphtheria.
Interviewer: That’s when they had those terrible…
�19
Mrs. McLachlan: My little sister and the two next oldest sisters, so my mother raised three, six of
us I mean.
Interviewer: Do you know how many men worked on that house when your father was building
it? Any idea?
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, at that time, he had about thirty six men, but he had other jobs, too, you
know.
Interviewer: Not all of them were working on the Voigt House?
Mrs. McLachlan: I imagine about twelve, or maybe more? I wouldn’t know. He had two good
foremen the Dengler Brothers, Fred and John Dengler, his first foremen, when he first went into
business. He had others when they they started to retire.
Interviewer: The brick, for the outside of the building. Do you know where that came from?
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, I…
Interviewer: Some of that tile work is really beautiful.
Mrs. McLachlan: Tile work?
Interviewer: Well, that sort of decorative tile work.
Mrs. McLachlan: Is there some tile work? Ceramics is it?
Interviewer: Well, it looks to be…
Mrs. McLachlan: More shiny than ceramic?
Interviewer: Well. It looks to be the same color as the brick; there is some circular decorative
piece, I think, that is in the top of one…
Mrs. McLachlan: That is the mason work, then.
Interviewer: Yes. You don’t know how much a mason made in those days, do you?
Mrs. McLachlan: How much what?
Interviewer: What they paid a mason a day, a brick layer?
Mrs. McLachlan: I wouldn’t know what a bricklayer made. I wouldn’t know what my father’s
men made, but when I worked at Ocker and Fords, I know what those men made. They did all
this interior finish. The foreman on the three floors each made thirty cents an hour.
Interviewer: That was a great rate, wasn’t it?
�20
Mrs. McLachlan: Eighteen dollars a week, for sixty hours work. I made up the payroll, so I
remember. Of course, my dad later on…
Interviewer: You remember that. That was for a foreman, not just one of the men?
Mrs. McLachlan: Then the next scale down, would be sixteen fifty. And Charlie VanderVelde,
that started this Grand Rapids Camera Club, was one of the fine craftsmen, up on the third floor,
under Ralph Fosget, he made sixteen fifty a week. The next scale down was fifteen and the next
was thirteen fifty and then there was twelve and there was a ten fifty. And my uncle ran the
freight elevator and he was getting nine dollars a week.
Interviewer: How much of a family did he have?
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, there was Jenny, Anna, and Francis and of course John, by that time.
John was still going to school, I think. There were six children, there were seven children, the
older ones were working you see.
Interviewer: My goodness, that’s not much to bring up a whole family. How long did it take to
build a house in those days? How long from the time they started to dig until they finished it?
Mrs. McLachlan: I can imagine this house took a couple of years, wouldn’t you say so?
Interviewer: I have no idea how long it would take, I am just curious if you were aware of how
long it would take to do a job like that?
Mrs. McLachlan: The mason work, the whole front of the building is beautiful.
Interviewer: Oh yes, it is a very handsome building, and there is a lot of hand work in it.
Mrs. McLachlan: Would they call that an estate, if it is just on a big lot?
Interviewer: I doubt it, just a big house, maybe a townhouse.
Mrs. McLachlan: It might be a mansion; they’ve got a carriage house and all that. Miss Lindner
had a ten acre estate out on Reed’s Lake. The house wasn’t anything like the Voigt House, and
she had spent thirty-thousand dollars to build on this big living room, on the one room but it
included the furniture that she bought, carpets and drapes. It was my first job to check on it, I
was with her for ten years. That house was a more livable home than the Voigt home. What I
mean by that is, it had more of a woman’s touch, of course she lived there alone.
Interviewer: Did Mr. Voigt make most of the decisions about what was to go into the house?
Mrs. McLachlan: You mean the old man?
Interviewer: Did he get to decide or did Mother get to say what she wanted?
�21
Mrs. McLachlan: I wouldn’t know that, but I imagine he had a lot of ideas. You know this house
was copied from a chateau in France.
Interviewer: Yes, I heard.
Mrs. McLachlan: Not exactly but parts of it, I think it is more Victorian than it is Queen Anne,
don’t you think so?
Interviewer: I am not very up on architecture.
Mrs. McLachlan: I think so, but I am not either. As long as I have been with my father, and even
with all that and even in the lumber business so many years, I still don’t know that. I did know a
lot more about furniture because I was in the furniture business, too. I worked for Robert Irwin
Furniture Company for ten years.
Interviewer: Did you really?
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes,
Interviewer: Did you know Mr. Irwin?
Mrs. McLachlan: Heavens yes, he would come over to my desk and talk to me.
Interviewer: He was a remarkable man.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, he was, he was in his eighties when he sold out there, you see. Sold the
factory; they sold the one on Fulton Street first. They still had the Royal on Bond Avenue where
he started. He started as a bookkeeper and so did Mr. Dykhouse. And they went into the lumber
business later on. Mr. Dykhouse worked for the Ball-Barnard-Putnam groceries, delivering
groceries. I was with him eight years.
Interviewer: You were a bookkeeper?
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, I was secretary, too, and also went into accounting.
Interviewer: Did you learn to use a typewriter or did you write everything by hand?
Mrs. McLachlan: No, I used a typewriter, I was sixteen years old I used a typewriter. But we
didn’t have any carbon copies.
Interviewer: What would you do, did you have to make two copies?
Mrs. McLachlan: No, we had a machine, well, it was a funny thing. It was a big machine with a
wheel on it. First of all it was a tissue paper book. And we put this, we had a tank with water in it
and a wringer. And we would wring out this, it was made of, what’s this stuff. Heavy stuff, but
pliable and you would put it thru the wringer. And we would put this wet thing in this tissue
�22
paper book and put this tissue paper over this wet, a kind of like cardboard, I’d call it and then
letter on top of that this way, you know upside down. And then we’d put another wet pad on top
of that and put another sheet of tissue paper, and I would have four or five letters, and then you
put them into this, all I can think of is this compress. You put it in there and then turn this wheel
and then press down. Sometimes it would smear and you would have to do the letter over again.
Interviewer: Oh, dear.
Mrs. McLachlan: Shortly after that there was a girl at the city hall, she was an Irish girl, Miss
O’Connor or something like that. I think that was the first thing, she used to make perfect copies,
you know. But, she had carbon paper then and she used to make perfect copies.
Interviewer: And that was a great thing.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes. And then I learned about carbon paper, it just came out. I was about
seventeen or eighteen, probably.
Interviewer: That would have been the turn of the century, wouldn’t it? The late eighteen
hundreds.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, I was seventeen years old at the turn of the century. I remember all the
factory whistles and church bells all ringing.
Interviewer: It was big excitement.
Mrs. McLachlan: It was just terrible.
Interviewer: Now, you’re about to live to see the bi-centennial of the United States.
Mrs. McLachlan: I hope I live that long.
Interviewer: Sure, you will, you’re in good health.
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, all but my eyesight. I had my eye operated on then, after, I went there
before yes.
Interviewer: I see here, you have something about Mrs. Charles Roelofs residence.
Mrs. McLachlan: No I haven’t she was very, very gracious on the phone, and she was to send
some lady over here with a tape recorder. And she never came.
Interviewer: Oh, I know who Mrs. [Barbara] Roelofs is, she is the Heritage Hill lady. She is the
one that was the head of the Heritage Hill.
Mrs. McLachlan: Mrs. Roelofs? Yes, didn’t you know her father?
�23
Interviewer: No, I don’t know her, I’ve always worked just at the Voigt House, and I’ve never
been an official. The name was familiar to me and I was just….
Mrs. McLachlan: She is Dr. Roelofs’ wife and then there is Dr. Pilling’s wife.
Interviewer: I have met Dr. Pilling’s wife, I’ve worked with her.
Mrs. McLachlan: I’ve saw her in the picture in the paper in the foyer of the Voigt home.
Interviewer: This one home that you mention is later known as the Edmund Wurzburg home, and
sold to the Franciscan Fathers, that is on Lake Drive, isn’t it?
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, my father built that picture gallery for Mrs. Clark, Melvin Clark’s wife. Is
that the name?
Interviewer: Yes, Melvin Clark….
Mrs. McLachlan: I met him too when I was over at one office. He came in there and that was
before my father built that, yes. He said, ―You know what, Margaret my daughter,‖ (she was his
daughter Mrs. Edmund Wurzburg) ―wants me to buy her a car.‖
Interviewer: Oh,
Mrs. McLachlan: I said, ―Well, why don’t you?‖ He said, ―You mean that?‖ I said, ‖Yes, why
don’t you buy her a car?‖ I was in my twenties then. He said, ―I guess I will.‖
Interviewer: Oh, dear.
Mrs. McLachlan: Another one was the old Claredon Hotel, where Olds Manor is today? My
father built that.
Interviewer: He built that?
Mrs. McLachlan: The Claredon and then it was razed and Rowe brothers who owned the Valley
City Milling Company right next door, right across the canal. Or was there a canal? Not on the
east side, there wasn’t. They bought that and built the Rowe Hotel, because at that time there
were these furniture men were all coming to town and ..
Interviewer: Oh, for the exhibitions, yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, exhibitions they had to have more hotels. So they built the Rowe Hotel
and later on it was changed to the Olds Manor for the elderly and it was taken over by Fountain
Street Baptist Church first, and then I don’t know who is running that now. But they didn’t have
too much luck with it, Fountain Street Church.
Interviewer: No, they tried to run it as an old people’s home, didn’t they?
�24
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes,
Interviewer: It’s a commercial thing now, isn’t it?
Mrs. McLachlan: I guess, my brother in law was there for awhile, so was Judge Raymond Starr.
Interviewer: Is there a North Star Hotel, too?
Mrs. McLachlan: Over in Comstock Park, that wasn’t much of a hotel but for a small place like
Comstock Park, it was.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: And Mr. Teele, Joseph Teele ran it. I knew that family, the whole family, they
had the Watson House before they went out there. They owned the Watson House was on the
corner of Bridge Street and Lexington.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: And that old building, I don’t know if it is still there or not. I don’t get over to
the West side at all.
Interviewer: To get back and forth over there now….
Mrs. McLachlan: I have a niece over living in my sister’s house and she stayed right there,
bought it when my brother-in-law died, she and her husband bought it and she lives there all
alone now in that big house. And I haven’t been in that house in ten years, and she is right in the
city. We talk to each other over the phone.
Interviewer: well, it is probably just as hard for her to get back and forth as it is for you.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, she has a busy life, and doesn’t drive anymore. She’s seventy-five now. I
was raised over on the West side.
Interviewer: Now, were you, you mentioned you went to St. Mary’s when Ralph was going to
Union High School. Did he go to Union High before he went off to Andover then?
Mrs. McLachlan: Oh yes, Union High, they call it Union High, it was a high school at one time,
if there was elementary classes there I don’t know that.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: They called it Union High.
Interviewer: I remember reading about it.
�25
Mrs. McLachlan: It was located on Turner Street. So was St. Mary’s School. My father built St.
Mary’s School, the Convent and the Rectory. Then he built the Palmer and Buchanan Street
Schools for the Board of Education. But those have all been replaced, not St. Mary’s.
Interviewer: But the public schools have been.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, the man next door went to the original Palmer Street School.
Interviewer: The Palmer Street School and the Buchanan Street School.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, I got that on my list. I guess, I gave you the one that has Charles
Greenway’s name on it. No, this is the one I want you to have. You want to take this?
Interviewer: I would love to, if you don’t mind parting with it?
Mrs. McLachlan: No, I don’t need it for anything. I got these other two copies, which is that one?
The little one?
Interviewer: That is the little one, you’d better keep that.
Mrs. McLachlan: I added more to it, that’s why.
Interviewer: Yes, there is a lot more.
Mrs. McLachlan: Do you want to take it along?
Interviewer: I am afraid, do you have several copies there?
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, I have several.
Interviewer: I would like to have that.
Mrs. McLachlan: That name is so hard to remember. It is pronounced Youngbaker
(Jungbaecker)? You know the Knape and Vogt Company? Well, the German name was Knapee.
From that original John Knape that got up that firm, that started that firm, his wife Dina was in
the same Whist Club that my mother was.
Interviewer: Oh, really.
Mrs. McLachlan: We knew all these people.
Interviewer: It was nice because Grand Rapids was smaller then.
Mrs. McLachlan: Of course it was, I went around collecting, too and I met so many businessmen,
lumbermen like Orin Ward. Orin A. Ward’s daughter married this Harrison Goodspeed. And this
old man Ward was one of the nicest men you could ever meet; he was so nice to me and I was
just a youngster in my teens then. Then there was old man [Frank] Chickering was in the lumber
�26
business. He was in the Tower Building right across from the Pantlind Hotel where the
Woolworths are today; and I used to go up to see him. I don’t know whether I collected, it must
have been that; or whether they bought things from our firm or what. This Mr. Chickering was so
nice.
Interviewer: Is that when you were with Ocker & Ford?
Mrs. McLachlan: That was my first office job, that’s where I learned all the office procedures.
Interviewer: All that you needed to know.
Mrs. McLachlan: Mr. Moore, was the bookkeeper, he came up from Widdicombe’s, and came
over there and was our bookkeeper. Mr. Lindner(?) was the manager, then there were a lot of
stockholders, Mr. [Clark H.] Gleason the lawyer. Old man Thayer, George W. Thayer was mayor
of Grand Rapids at one time. The old house on Ottawa Street that was his; that should have been
preserved.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: It was a one-story kind of stone house.
Interviewer: Oh, it’s always a shame to see those beautiful old places go, isn’t it?
Mrs. McLachlan: There is one on Front Street, too, it was all made of cobblestone or something.
Interviewer: Yes, yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: Then there was Mr. Sherwood, Robert Sherwood, was a nephew of the Mr.
Thayer, and he was one of the biggest fruit growers in Michigan. He had this big farm in
Watervliet.
Interviewer: Yes,
Mrs. McLachlan: He was vice-president of this firm. But that was before I went with them.
Interviewer: I see, your father was an officer of Ocker and Ford at one time?
Mrs. McLachlan: President
Interviewer: President of it.
Mrs. McLachlan: Twenty years.
Interviewer: Twenty years, that is a long time. Was he doing building and being president at the
same time? Both companies at the same time?
�27
Mrs. McLachlan: But you see he wasn’t active in that business, he just took his business over
there.
Interviewer: I see.
Mrs. McLachlan: That’s why he started this business because he was affiliated with his
contracting business.
Interviewer: It was to get all the finished carpentry done and finish all the millwork.
Mrs. McLachlan: But the factories got out all the mantels and stuff, and like that.
Interviewer: Was that mostly hand done or was it done on lathe?
Mrs. McLachlan: No, most ,well some of it might have been done on lathes, but they did a lot of
handwork.
Interviewer: A lot of handwork, hand rubbed and polished?
Mrs. McLachlan: This great big band saw, and [Alexander] Barbey was this little fellow, and I’d
go up there, and run up and down those stairs two or three times a day, you know a couple of
flights. I would go up there for some reason and Barbey would say, ―Want me to make you a
little chair, cut you out a little wooden chair?‖ He would put a little chunk of wood on that band
saw and in a few minutes, there would be a little chair. I wish I had saved all these things.
Interviewer: Oh, yes. When they put the parquet floor in, was that put in on the spot, when they
built the parquet floor, do you know? In the Voigt House?
Mrs. McLachlan: Did they what?
Interviewer: Did they fit the pieces as they laid it or was it already cut?
Mrs. McLachlan: I would think it came in a certain design.
Interviewer: I don’t know, I was just curious? Do you know anything about that?
Mrs. McLachlan: They used to call the first floor of the Power’s Theatre the ―parquet circle‖. I
often wondered why.
Interviewer: Maybe the floors? I don’t know either. I think it is nice we are preserving the Voigt
House, I think. It is certainly an example.
Mrs. McLachlan: There were other houses that were beautiful, too here in town.
Interviewer: Or prettier houses, but this is so complete though.
Mrs. McLachlan: You take that McInerney home...
�28
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: …and some of the others, the one that always like so much was on the corner
of Union and Cherry. It was a man by the name of Friant, a lumberman that built that. That was
always my favorite and right across the street was the Metz home – of the Metz Building. And
there was another one that Mr. Lemmon once lived in. It was her home, she was Mrs. Cramer
and then he married her after his wife died. Leavenworth was the head of the G R & I Railway
and that was right next to, on the corner is the Jonkhoff Funeral Home. Before that was Mr.
Straight, he was the manager of the Majestic Theatre anyway, whatever his name was; he built
that house. And right next door to this was the Cramer home and that was one of my pet ones.
Just the kind of house I would have liked, you know. And later on it was sold to the St. Andrew’s
Cathedral, to the parish I mean.
Interviewer: Yes, is that where the bishop lives now?
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes Bishop Kelly lived there.
Interviewer: That’s a beautiful house.
Mrs. McLachlan: Yes, it is.
Interviewer: Actually the Voigt House may not be the prettiest house in town, but it is
beautifully preserved and everything is in it.
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, they kept it like it was in those days.
Interviewer: Yes and when you go into it now and you can see what it looked like in nineteen
five, you know.
Mrs. McLachlan: Eighteen ninety-five.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: And they never even remodeled the bathrooms, and the old-fashioned tubs,
and the marble-topped lavatories. That’s what we had too, the marble topped lavatories too.
Interviewer: The downstairs bathroom has what looks like to me to be like a sitz bath in it.
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, I didn’t see that.
Interviewer: No, must have been off the bedroom …
Mrs. McLachlan: Off the bedroom.
Interviewer: Off the bedroom where he was, and you wouldn’t have seen that.
Mrs. McLachlan: I didn’t see the kitchen or the ballroom.
�29
Interviewer: Now the ballroom is not open to the public, that’s way upstairs, right.
Mrs. McLachlan: Well, I don’t blame them.
Interviewer: Well, I think the trouble is there is so much stored up there, you know, they found
dresses from way back.
Mrs. McLachlan: They kept everything.
Interviewer: It’s nice because you can see a picture of Mrs. Voigt; well we have the dress she is
wearing. You know, down there they will have a model will wear the dress she is wearing in the
picture. Oh, their beautiful.
Mrs. McLachlan: Are they that well preserved, they probably have closets up there.
Interviewer: Oh, beautiful wardrobes to keep them.
Mrs. McLachlan: Miss Lindner had them too.
Interviewer: Gorgeous handwork.
Mrs. McLachlan: The dressmakers did a lot of that, they were proud of their trade.
Interviewer: Did you make your first communion dress? You had to have a sewing machine for
that, didn’t you? You didn’t have to make it all by hand?
Mrs. McLachlan: My sister Mary made it. I was only twelve. She was nine years older.
Interviewer: She made it for you.
Mrs. McLachlan: She made this plain white dress. I had my picture taken. I got to thinking
about that collaret one night, oh two or three years ago, and wondered if it shows on the picture
and it does. I paid two dollars for it.
Interviewer: I would hope it shows. Two dollar collaret, well that’s a lot of money. When you
think the men worked the whole week for eighteen dollars, then a two dollar collaret is pretty
much.
Mrs. McLachlan: And a foreman, and when he hired this one young man, the Heller Brothers, of
Youngstown, Ohio used to throw a lot of work to us and Mr. Lindner would go down there and
he met this young man just come back from Europe, educated in Europe and he’d speak four
different languages. And he hired him to come up and do the drafting. Lay out the work and
everything; we had a drafting room in back of the office, all in one building. He paid him fifteen
dollars a week.
Interviewer: Oh, my.
�30
Mrs. McLachlan: With that kind of education, he was very well educated, and I kind of liked him
too, he would come over to the house. It was natural for him to take me out because he didn’t
know anybody else, you know. Very handsome looking, I have a picture of him in the drafting
room, he took mine and I took his.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: There were the men in the upper floor were interested in photography, so they
had the two top floors. The original Grand Rapids Camera Club. Later on I was in that too.
Interviewer: For goodness sakes.
Mrs. McLachlan: Later on I was on the board of directors.
Interviewer: So you used to take a lot of pictures yourself.
Mrs. McLachlan: I have just oodles of them, they’re seventy years old, just snap shot after snap
shot. I bought a camera when I was about eighteen or nineteen years old. And then, when we
bought the cottage, most of pictures were from down there.
Interviewer: That’s the trouble, when you are at home you forget to take pictures of everything
around you, don’t you, as it was.
Mrs. McLachlan: I had pictures of my new house, my bedroom and I had a brass bed there. I
don’t know what happened; I think I tore that up. Pictures of the inside upstairs and lot of them
of downstairs, pictures of the rooms downstairs but Arthur said don’t you give those pictures
away. Of course, he’s in some of them, he was young boy then.
Interviewer: They are very precious then and they sure are.
Mrs. McLachlan: Some of the old bathing suits I had.
Interviewer: Now, how long, did everybody work sixty hours a week then? They worked six
days a week, right, ten hours a day?
Mrs. McLachlan: Ten hour and ten minutes a day, so they could get out at five o’clock on
Saturday afternoons. And they just looked forward to that extra hour. Of course, they put it in
during the week, but they looked forward to getting off a little early.
Interviewer: Yes.
Mrs. McLachlan: I was the same. I got there at quarter to seven in the morning.
Interviewer: Oh my goodness,
�31
Mrs. McLachlan: I gave out the clock tickets, we had a watchman’s clock, and my husband’s
uncle ran that watchman’s clock. He had an office in… the not the Pantlind but the Sweet’s
Hotel in the basement. The stairs were on the outside, and the offices were the coal office down
there…
INDEX
A
F
American Boxboard Company · 6
B
Ball-Barnard-Putnam Wholesale Grocery Company · 22
Barbey, Alexander · 28
Bissell Company · 8
Booth Memorial Hospital · 9
Boston Store · 10
Buchanan Street School · 26
Buist, Mrs. · 16
C
Chickering, Frank · 27
City Hall · 9
Claredon Hotel · 24
Clark, Mr. · 5
Clark, Mrs. Melvin · 24
Cramer, Mrs. · 29
Crescent Mill · 1, 11
Creston Mortuary · 8
D
Dengler Brothers (Fred and John) · 20
Diver, Miss · 12
Dykhouse, Mr. · 6, 8, 22
Fosget, Ralph · 20
Fountain Street Baptist Church · 24
Friant (home) · 29
G
G R & I Railway · 29
German Parochial School · 4
Gleason, Mr. Clark H. · 27
Goodspeed family · 6
Goodspeed, Harrison · 6, 27
Goodspeed, John · 6
Grand Rapids Camera Club · 20, 31
Greenway, Charles · 26
H
Hake, Dr. · 7, 11
Hake, Dr. and Mrs. · 16
Herpolsheimer family · 12
Herpolsheimer store · 12
Hooker, Harriett E. · 1
I
Irwin, Mr. Robert · 22
J
E
Evangeline Home · 8
Jack, Mr. (William) · 6
Jack, William · 6
Jonkhoff Funeral Home · 29
Jungbaecker, Anna · 5
Jungbaecker, John · 1
Jungbaecker, Mary · 2, 9, 31
�32
Jungbaecker, Veronica Elizabeth Josephine · 1
K
Keister, Johanna Frances · 1
Kelly, Bishop · 29
Klanderman, Miss Annette · 12
Knape and Vogt Company · 26
Knape, John · 26
L
Leavenworth, Mr. · 29
Lemmon, Mr. · 29
Lindner, C. A. · 8
Lindner, Miss · 21, 30
Lindner, Mr. · 27, 31
Lypse, Ralph · 5
M
Majestic Theatre · 29
May Company · 7
May, Bernhard · 7, 8
May, Meyer · 7
McInerney (home) · 29
McLachlan, Ford H. · 1
McLachlan, John Norman · 1
Metz (home) · 29
Metz Building · 6, 29
Perkins, Mr. · 6
Pilling, Dr. (wife) · 24
Power’s Theatre · 29
R
Reed’s Lake · 6, 21
Robert Irwin Furniture Company · 22
Roelofs, Dr. · 24
Roelofs, Mrs. [Barbara] · 4, 23
Roelofs, Mrs. Charles · 23
Rowe Hotel · 24
Royal Furniture Company · 22
S
Shanahan, Maurice · 8
Sherwood, Robert · 8, 27
St. Andrew’s Cathedral · 29
St. Mary’s School · 25, 26
Starr, Judge Raymond · 7, 25
Starr, Minnie · 7
Straight, Mr. (home) · 29
Sweet’s Hotel · 32
T
Teele, Joseph · 25
Thayer, George W. · 27
Tower Building · 27
N
U
North Star Hotel (Comstock Park) · 25
Union High School · 8, 25
O
V
O’Connor, Miss · 23
Ocker and Ford Company · 5, 8, 20, 27, 28
Olds Manor · 7, 24
Valley City Milling Company · 24
VanderVelde, Charlie · 20
Voigt family · 5, 10
Voigt House · 1, 4, 7, 8, 9, 13, 15, 16, 19, 21, 23, 28, 29
Voigt, Carl · 10, 12
Voigt, Clara · 7, 11
Voigt, Frank · 10
Voigt, Mr. and Mrs. C. A. · 17
Voigt, Mr. C. A. · 11, 12, 21
P
Palmer Street School · 26
Pantlind Hotel · 27
�33
Voigt, Mrs. · 30
Voigt, Ralph · 3, 4, 8, 10, 12, 16, 17, 25
Voigt-Herpolsheimer store · 13
W
Ward, Orin A. · 27
Watson House · 25
Woolworths · 27
Wurzburg, Edmund (home) · 24
Wurzburg, Margaret (Clark) · 24
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/906c598f489cd2ee0e412016141fc2b0.mp3
93b67ddc1a8125ef218596d49900e890
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories
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Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
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Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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1971 - 1977
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RHC-23_54McLachlan
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McLachlan, Veronica
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McLachlan, Veronica
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Veronica Jungbaecker was born on August 1, 1883 in Grand Rapids. Her father, John Jungbaecker, was the building contractor for the Voigt House. She married Ford McLachlan in 1920. She worked at the Robert Irwin Furniture Company as a secretary/bookkeeper. Mrs. McLachlan died on December 21, 1988.
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Michigan--History
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Grand Rapids (Mich.)
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Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Women
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1974
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ab31ef1152394ddb36fd36e42d76503.pdf
503d85b7914624e0c5f9f69bab65e73f
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Miss Elizabeth Welter Wilson
Interviewed on June 5, 1975
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape # 51 (1:19:27)
Biographical Information
Elizabeth Welter Wilson was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 4 April 1921. She is the
daughter of Henry Dunning Wilson and Marie Ethel Welter who were married in Grand Rapids
on 12 June 1920. Elizabeth currently (2010) resides in Manhattan.
Henry D. Wilson was born 4 May 1892 in Grand Rapids, the son of Charles Moseman Wilson
and Jane Wadsworth Dunning. Henry died on 16 June 1948 in Grand Rapids. Marie E. Welter
was born 19 August 1890 in Grand Rapids, the daughter of Ferdinand Welter and Elizabeth
Ewing Muir. She died on 23 November 1980 in Grand Rapids. Family members are buried in
Oak Hill Cemetery, Grand Rapids.
___________
Interviewer: I am testing at this point. I am Lee Hutchins and I am going to interview, shortly my
second cousin Elizabeth Welter Wilson, who has become a rather well known actress in her own
right and has been in the theatre world ever since graduating high school. I am going to stop and
see if we are….
This recording is being made at the home of her brother Charles Wilson, a new home built within
the last few years on the Thornapple River, not far from the village of Caledonia, somewhere in
the Alaska area. This is the first time I have ever been out here and it is a lovely day and it is the
afternoon of June the fifth, a Thursday. We have had a delightful lunch prepared by Charles‟s
wife, Sally. We have toured the house, met the dog, and saw the swimming pool. And are now
on a lower level, I guess you would call it the family room, Elizabeth is still upstairs getting
ready. We will start in just a minute.
Before she arrives, I would like to explain that we were both brought up in the same
neighborhood on North Lafayette in Grand Rapids. She is about three years older than I. The
children of the respective families, my sister and myself and her brother and younger sister, we
were all close as children and saw a great deal of each other. Both of us were brought up in
Victorian mansions that our grandfathers had, each purchased in the late nineteen twenties.
Elizabeth‟s family moved out of their house in about nineteen forty-four or five, I would guess,
and my family has stayed on, still at the same address, one-eleven Lafayette north east.
Elizabeth‟s old home was turned into first, it was turned into a radio station WGRD and is now
the office or I guess you would call the headquarters of the architectural firm of Steenwyk and
Thrall in Grand Rapids.
�2
Yesterday afternoon at my mother‟s house in Grand Rapids, Elizabeth was interviewed by the
editor of Accent (Grand Rapids), Jim Mencarelli. He obviously had insights into Elizabeth‟s
profession which I don‟t possess because I am not particularly a theatre buff; but he did conduct
an interview and the results will appear in the July issue of Accent (Grand Rapids). I am going to
talk about or ask Elizabeth to talk about some of the topics he talked about yesterday afternoon.
Probably the same questions but probably not in the same way and I may add or subtract as we
go along.
Interviewer: And now Elizabeth has arrived on stage as it were, and put this about out to here
which is the right distance and start by asking some questions, the same that he asked in your
interview of yesterday. And we will start by asking you where you were born and where and
approximately when?
Elizabeth: I was born in Grand Rapids approximately, I am going to tell the truth, Lee, how
about that? That will be a first.
Interviewer: Why not.
Elizabeth: Nineteen twenty-one in Blodgett Memorial Hospital on April fourth; and there you
are.
Interviewer: What are your first memories of going to school? Where did you go for primary
school, for instance?
Elizabeth: My first memories of school are not really of grade school or primary school. My
grandmother, Mrs. Charles Wilson, I think she was responsible for this, she knew a fascinating
lady that was teaching French; it was prekindergarten school and I think our mutual cousin Mrs.
Seymour Wilson, had something to do with this prekindergarten school. At any rate, when I was
three and four I went to this prekindergarten school. Lee, I actually started grade school in
Detroit, Michigan, I think I am right about this, now wait a minute, we moved to Detroit, yes I
believe that‟s true. It‟s strange that I should be unsure of… But I think it was the kindergarten
and first grade was in Detroit, we moved to Detroit in the late - middle thirties, no that‟s not
right.
Interviewer: You moved back from Detroit.
Elizabeth: I don‟t know where I started school, but I know I spent most of my primary years at
the Fountain Street School.
Interviewer: In Grand Rapids.
Elizabeth: In Grand Rapids, and after that, we will have to clear that up, I am not completely
sure. I know I went to school in Detroit for at least two years, and I‟ve always been under the
impression that I started school there; somehow we will have to figure that one out. I went thru
�3
the sixth grade at Fountain Street School and instead of going directly to Central Junior High
school I went to Marywood Academy for three years and entered Central High School in the
tenth grade. I finished, I graduated in nineteen forty from Central High School. So that‟s plenty
of information.
Interviewer: One of the questions that he brought up early in the interview yesterday, which I
thought quite interesting, was your appearing, attending summer school at the Westminster
Presbyterian Church in Grand Rapids. Anyway, it was not a part of your regular schooling.
Elizabeth: Yes…
Interviewer: You took part in a pageant. I wish you would repeat that again.
Elizabeth: One summer when we were living at thirty-five North Lafayette Avenue, we attended
the Sunday school summer school at the Presbyterian Church. We were members of Park
Congregational Church, but our grandmother belonged to the Presbyterian Church. I was eight
years old; I remember how old I was. At the end of the six weeks the minister came and said we
are going to do a pageant and the tallest person in the room will play the American flag. For
whatever reason but they had decided that was what it was. I always was very self-conscious
about my height. I am almost five feet, ten inches tall now and was almost five ten when I was
twelve years old. I don‟t know how tall I was at eight, but I was very, very tall and while I was
growing up very self conscious about it. But any rate, he said you, Elizabeth Wilson will play the
American flag, and that was that. Well, we rehearsed the program and we did it and first of all, I
had to recite the Declaration of Independence, dressed as the flag if you can imagine. And when
it was over, I got it all mixed up, all backwards, I was so humiliated. Somehow, when I went out
by the church, a young girl, woman came up to me and said, “You were very good.” And it
flashed across my head that must have been the first time that anybody ever paid me a
compliment, really. I don‟t know why she did because I can‟t imagine. But I thought at any rate
that is kind of nice.
Interviewer: That was the beginning…
Elizabeth: That was the beginning, Lee; the start of it, then.
Interviewer: That was the start of it, in a real sense.
Elizabeth: It kind of stuck in my head, well what a strange experience it was, it hadn‟t been a
particularly happy experience, I‟d forgotten the lines, I hadn‟t been very happy about being
chosen as the tallest person to play the American flag, but there was if you will, there was
something psychological about the way she said it and my reaction. Well, the warm waves of
praise. I just lapped them up.
Interviewer: Alright, let‟s pause for just a second.
�4
Elizabeth: Alright.
Interviewer: So, after your initial performance at the Presbyterian Church, you obviously took
another step or two along the way, what was your next experience in the theatre in this area,
Elizabeth?
Elizabeth: Well, Lee, there were a number of people when I was nine and ten years old, who had
a very, very strong influence on my life. Your mother for one, Mrs. Lee Wilson Hutchins for
one, my cousin Helen, and I will get into that in a minute, but I would like to tell what she meant
to me and how she effected my wanting to be an actress. But when I was nine and ten years old, I
was very involved in Park Church and there were quite an extraordinary woman named Mary
Einecke she was married to our musical director Harold Einecke. She had been an actress…
Interviewer: That is spelled E-i-n-e-c-k-e
Elizabeth: I am not sure.
Interviewer: Well, that‟s close enough. Yes.
Elizabeth: She had been an actress, she was Russian. She married Harold Einecke and he was a
very fine musician at Park Church and they had a very fine reputation there and built the choirs
and I was very much a part of the choirs. I expect that experience, too. I started about when I was
nine or ten; I was in the Girl‟s Choir, then I was in the Chapel Choir when I was in my teens. I
was in the Park Church choirs for about ten years, and Harold and Mary Einecke were very
theatrical. She was a darling woman and because she had been a professional actress she meant a
great deal to me. There was also another woman in the church who was named Elsie Stroop who
was secretarial minister who was very encouraging, even at ten and eleven years old I‟d begin to
evident the fact of wanting to be an actress, I don‟t know. Then I went to Marywood Academy
as I said earlier, and there was a woman there a Miss Buck, who was the drama teacher. But, I
must tell the Joseph Jefferson story, Lee because I think it is so interesting. Years ago, a hundred
years ago perhaps, there was a famous American actor named Joseph Jefferson and his great
claim to fame was playing Rip Van Winkle and his understudy was on tour one night stands, or
one day stand as it was. And here we were twelve and thirteen years old and we did a couple of
scenes from the Washington Irving book, I don‟t know who wrote the play Rip Van Winkle and
then Joseph Jefferson‟s understudy played the old man Rip Van Winkle and I was asked to be,
not really asked to be just part of his little family in this Washington Irving play with Joseph
Jefferson‟s understudy. This is just a part of history that tickles me. I don‟t know, I‟m sure he
goes way, way back maybe even to Booth‟s time. Edwin Booth and John Wilkes [Booth] go, go
way back. Well, that‟s sort of a touch with history. Then when I left Marywood Academy, I went
to Central, and there was a very strong-willed woman named Dorothy Sonke, a very remarkable
lady and she was most encouraging.
Interviewer: Sonke is spelled S-O-N-K-E, I believe.
�5
Elizabeth: Yes, I do believe. Dorothy Sonke right from the beginning, I don‟t know how it
happened but when I entered Central in the tenth grade, I had a great long soliloquy, by that time
I skipped two teachers that I studied with in Grand Rapids that I had, Camilla Boon and Myrtle
Koon Cherryman who had incredibly strong influences on me. They were both interesting
women, and I do want to talk about them. Myrtle Koon Cherryman was a legend in Grand
Rapids and a remarkable lady and I had been studying with them and I took that much more
seriously than my own school work, Lee. You remember I use to have to come to you to get
French lessons for me. I was so much more interested in my dramatic lessons and I studied every
week with Camilla Boon or Mrs. Cherryman. I used to have readings every week and I use to
memorize these darn things, each week. And that is how I learned to memorize from doing these
each week. Now, I can memorize things very quickly, and I use to write these things down and
memorize these things, at any rate, I came to Central. And so I know this long soliloquy and she
was so impressed, Lee. She was so impressed because this new person coming to Central knew
this long thing. I don‟t even know what it was. She took me in front of the graduating class and
had me give this long speech and they were most impressed. Of course, I was terribly pleased
and from then on I got the lead in the senior play, I‟ve forgotten now what I did in the junior
play, but I directed. I was the only student in Central that was ever asked to direct, it was called
an Acting Project, a great Vaudeville show. That is what it was called, The Vaudeville Show, I
directed that. By the time I left Central and started going into the summer stock theatre, I felt that
I had done quite a lot.
Interviewer: What was the senior class play?
Elizabeth: Pride and Prejudice.
Interviewer: And who were some of the other actors?
Elizabeth: David Idema played my father. Let‟s see David Ware, I believe, I‟m not sure about
my brother. Alex Dillingham played opposite me, my best friend in the senior class was Evelyn
Klein, she was in it; she played my mother. Betty Williams was in it, she lived here for a long
time, oh gracious, let‟s see.
Interviewer: Well, that‟s a good number of people.
Elizabeth: Yes, we played for three performances. Of course, Pride and Prejudice is such a
lovely story. I remember, my grandmother Mrs. Charles (Angeline) Wilson, came to see one of
the performances. She was, you know she was one of the most critical people in our lives. She
had a great deal of musical experience; she lived and studied in Europe. The most serious critic
in my young life. When Nana Angeline said to me, we called her Nana, in her strict way, “You
were good.” that was, well ….
Interviewer: That was a high complement.
�6
Elizabeth: Indeed, indeed!
Interviewer: Go on, what was the next step?
Elizabeth: Well the next step, I started to get involved with the Civic Theatre in Grand Rapids in
nineteen thirty-nine and forty, and Bertram Yarborough again, a remarkable man with
professional experience. He asked me, rather invited me to go to his theatre on Nantucket,
Massachusetts to be an apprentice; that was in nineteen forty. I had graduated Central in nineteen
forty, and Lee, that meant so much to me. Now, Lee we had to pay, you just didn‟t, because for
some reason in those days there were lots of summer theatres. Of course, all the summer theatres
had apprentices that were nothing but workhorses. I certainly expected to act, but lots of them
never did. Some summer theatres were notoriously corrupt, they would have dozens and dozens
of apprentices, and they would pay two and three hundred dollars for the summer and never got
to do anything but carry scenery and work like dogs. But I went to Nantucket, and the whole
family made the trip because it was the second year of the New York World‟s Fair. So my father,
Henry Wilson and my mother and my brother, Charles and my sister Mary and I got in our car
and we drove. We stopped in Williamsburg, and New York, then they took me to Nantucket. I
spent the summer in Nantucket.
And after the summer in Nantucket, well after the summer I got to play three parts in the plays
and it was a very good company. And they were all outstanding people. I can‟t tell you the
names of the plays that I was in, but one of the great thrills was meeting Katherine Cornell, who
was my idol. As I was growing up, I read her book, I [Always] Wanted to be an Actress. She was
my idol, and she lived on Martha‟s Vineyard and she was a great friend of the two men who
were the producers of this theatre. And she came over one day and Lawrence Olivier and Vivian
Lee were playing in New York at that time, Romeo and Juliet and they paid a visit to the island. I
didn‟t meet them, but I remember seeing them from a distance on the lawn, thinking oh my
goodness! But that was a very important summer. Then, I came back to Grand Rapids and went
to Junior College. And then the war. I remember one of the things about Nantucket, it isn‟t a
very theatrical thing, but the submarines were encircling the island then I didn‟t know if they
were American or German, but I remember sitting in the restaurant on Nantucket and you could
hear those great depth charges; the submarines during World War Two that close and you could
hear these big thunking things exploding in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Nantucket Island.
It was very frightening to say the least.
Interviewer: Then eventually you got involved with Gerald Hanchett and his sister Elizabeth in
their… what would you call that? How would you describe that?
Elizabeth: Well, then I came back and went to Junior College. And then the next summer of
forty-one, there was a summer theatre in upper New York, [not] New York Michigan, I think
Lee it was...
Interviewer: Was it Onekama or Portage?
�7
Elizabeth: Oh, dear….There was a woman who was very… Elvira Baker, who was with the
Civic Theatre, and Robert Cunningham, Bob Cunningham who was head of the drama
department at Junior College; they were all involved. And Amy Lewis, remember her? Amy
Lewis was one of the leading lights in the Civic Theatre, and she was a charming actress, a
charming woman. In this little theatre, up along the coast, Lee. The Onekama area, whatever the
name. Anyway, we spent the summer there and then I came back and went to Junior College
again and it was at that point I got involved in this theatre, now then there were two people in
Grand Rapids; the Hanchett family H-A-N-C-H-E-T-T, Elizabeth and Gerald Hanchett, they
were brother and sister and they had been very involved in the theatre in New York, and they had
produced revues. Just a minute Lee, I think we have to turn it off….
Interviewer: Sorry for the interruption, Elizabeth was called to the long distance telephone.
Interviewer: We were just talking about the Hanchetts and the Playhouse, or whatever you want
to call it, the Art Center which they ran in the old Hanchett house down on College Avenue. I‟d
like to add a little footnote to the story at this point. That house which is still standing is the
house that is immediately south of the Voigt house at one-fifteen College southeast. It is a
notable structure, actually the Hanchetts didn‟t build it, but they moved in around the turn of the
century. And Mr. Hanchett, the father of Gerald and Elizabeth was the president of the Grand
Rapids Street Railway Company, and at one point they were very, very well to do, if not rich
people. These children were that were contemporaries of my parents, they were very gifted and
unusual people. Now, Elizabeth you go ahead:
Elizabeth: Well, they were. They produced a play and some revues with Shirley Booth a very
talented actress; they produced some revues that she was in called Sunday Nights at Nine.
Elizabeth Hanchett and Gerald Hanchett played a great part in my life; they were very kind to
me. I went into their school on College Avenue; I was an apprentice in a way. I worked part
time. I was going to Junior College in nineteen forty-three, no that‟s not right, I think it was
nineteen forty-two, yes. Because it was the subsequent summer that I went to the Barter Theatre.
At any rate, I taught school. I went around and taught; I wasn‟t qualified at all but I taught
children speech and readings and elocution. They had made arrangements in the various grade
schools all over Grand Rapids, to pay for my tuition at this Art School on College Avenue, I did
this. There was a man who taught, named Alex Evoie who taught in this school. And this school
was in this house that Lee just described. There was a beautiful big room in this house and in the
back there was this huge room that we used as our theatre room. The class wasn‟t large, twenty
or thirty students, but they managed to get very good faculty. They had a dance instructor and a
speech instructor. What they were trying to do was have a theatre school in Grand Rapids, and it
was called the Arts Center, the Theatre Arts Center. And that is what they were trying to do.
There just wasn‟t enough need for it in Grand Rapids and it didn‟t work out. At any rate, it was
through Elizabeth and Gerald Hanchett that I met Alex E-v-o-i-e, and it was thru him that I heard
about the Barter Theatre in Abingdon, Virginia. And in nineteen forty-two, my life really started.
That‟s really true. Because in nineteen forty-two, I went down there, and again it was as an
�8
apprentice, my father had to pay; because the war was going on hot and heavy then in nineteen
forty-two. They wanted boys; there were no men around of course. The boys didn‟t have to pay
but the girls always had to pay to be an apprentice. I think it was something like forty-five
dollars a week; that was a lot of money. That was room and board, but even so it was a lot of
money. I don‟t know where we got it, because we certainly did not have very much. I went down
there and started out. Now I wasn‟t sure, that I really was on the right track, because up to that
point I hadn‟t made any real progress. No one had really praised me that seriously and I was
always very nervous about it. I remember when we did the play at Central, I was terribly
unhappy about one performance and was uneasy about it. Robert Porterfield, who ran the Barter
Theatre, it was called the Barter Theatre because during the Depression when people didn‟t have
money, they brought foodstuffs to this famous theatre, brought food to the box office instead of
cash. Eleanor Roosevelt, Mrs. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was very largely responsible for
getting this theatre on the map. It was on the cover of Life magazine, it was a very famous
theatre because of this clever gimmick of people bringing foodstuffs to the box office. When I
got there, they weren‟t doing this so much anymore. Robert Porterfield, who was a wonderful
man, a unique man and a great help to me, he use to say that the actors ate the box office, which
is what we did and we had some really splendid meals. Lots of vegetables, I might add. But
anyway, I went down there and in that company, Lee, in nineteen forty-two were some
remarkable talents, Patricia Neal, right fresh from Knoxville, hadn‟t even graduated from high
school. And a wonderful actress name Margaret Phillips, who isn‟t too well known now but I
think she was a genius and she made a great career in the forties on Broadway. She went on, but
she was too sensitive. Anyway, there were lots and lots of people in that group. And in that
summer, I had to either make it or not, I remember the point of being given some good parts and
I just said to myself, alright Lizzie you‟re either going to do it or you are not. By golly and I am
not bragging, but by the end of the summer I had not only established myself, and I say this
openly but as the best actress in that group I had gotten a scholarship to the Neighborhood
Playhouse in New York, which was really something to get. I really felt like a changed person. I
don‟t know what happened to me, Lee, but I just won over my fears and just had decided, it was
purely emotional. I found a way of working and I remember coming back to Grand Rapids that
fall and I knew I just was different now. Then I went to New York in the fall of nineteen fortytwo and went to the Neighborhood Playhouse. And of course, that is another whole story,
because there it is exciting. There for the first time little Lizzie Wilson from Grand Rapids,
Michigan met the greatest acting teacher in America, Sanford Meisner who taught the
Stanislavski method, and is acknowledged by any one that knows anything at all and Martha
Graham who was America‟s greatest dancer. And those are the two people that I studied with for
two years, so you can imagine.
Interviewer: I would like to backtrack for a moment because you mentioned my mother much
earlier in this interview and it was recalled to me that my mother took you and me to Detroit.
Would you like to continue and if able will you date the year for me? Will you tell about our
experience there?
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Elizabeth: Well, Lee lived a block and a half from my house.
Interviewer: Less than that.
Elizabeth: A short block. We really grew up together, his sister and my brother and sister. And I
spent a great deal of time in their home, for some reason I don‟t know why his mother liked me,
and she used to go to Detroit which was quite an occasion. In about nineteen thirty-seven, I think
Lee it was nineteen thirty-seven, the three of us would drive, I think it was a convertible too, we
would drive to Detroit and go to the theatre. And the first play I ever saw in my life was Walter
Huston in Knickerbocker Holiday.
Interviewer: You mean legitimate.
Elizabeth: The first legitimate play, first live actors.
Interviewer: What was the name of the play?
Elizabeth: Knickerbocker Holiday!
Interviewer: Oh yes, Knickerbocker Holiday.
Elizabeth: And Lee‟s mother would travel to New York, and that was such a thing. And the New
York Times was always in your home and it was also in my grandmother‟s home. That made an
incredible impression on me, I used to read the theatre section; I used to devour what was
happening in New York. New York was the place.
Interviewer: I guess, it still is.
Elizabeth: Well, that‟s not quite true, it‟s changed.
Interviewer: You started to talk about the Neighborhood Playhouse.
Elizabeth: Well, I was fortunate to go to the Neighborhood Playhouse for two years. I can‟t even
begin to tell you what an experience that was. But it was very important to me to know those
people and those two years of study in New York, and meeting people was so interesting and
exciting and stimulated me so, gave me such confidence. Both Martha Graham and Sandy
Meisner were very complimentary and helped me and worked very hard with me. And the point
is they were also very, very hard on me too. But Sandy said to me you are good and you are
going to have to be disciplined. He worked very hard and was very serious, and so Martha also
worked very hard, and it wasn‟t easy, wasn‟t easy at all.
Interviewer: Forgive another slight digression, I couldn‟t help but think, Betty Ford, Gerald
Ford‟s wife, was also a pupil of Martha Graham, did you ever know Betty in Grand Rapids?
Elizabeth: No, I never knew the Fords.
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Interviewer: She was dancing, but I didn‟t know if your paths had ever crossed.
Elizabeth: No, we never did, which was strange.
Interviewer: But you both studied under Martha Graham. I‟m going to shut it off for a second.
Interviewer: Before we continue with your career, onward and upward through the ages, I
thought we could talk a few minutes about you coming from Grand Rapids, which isn‟t a big city
and is belittled from time to time, even though we have managed to produce a President of the
United States. When you arrived in New York City from Grand Rapids, did you feel you were
coming from a very provincial background?
Elizabeth: No, Lee, I don‟t know why but let me put it this way, I don‟t know why but I always
wanted to live in New York. I never wanted to go to California. I never wanted to be a movie
actress. There is an irony in that because I have made more movies and done more movies than
I‟ve done plays, and I„ve spent more time in California. I was never interested in the movies, I
always wanted to be on the stage, and I had this thing and I don‟t know where it came from,
about living in New York, and being in the east. Now, I„ve always loved small towns, and when
I left Grand Rapids, I think there was a period when I thought it was pretty hokey, and hicky,
pretty small town and I in my twenties and thirties when I would come home, I would sort of
look down my nose, at certain thing around town. Or if I was with people, they would say it must
be so wonderful in New York. There is certainly a lot to be said for living in a large city. The
point is I couldn‟t have had a career here, and I couldn‟t have done what I have done, if I had
stayed here. But it is totally different here, but I always had a great feeling for the town. Now, if I
had that feeling because, I had a very happy childhood, let‟s face it and I had so many people
here that I loved so much and I had a big family and lots and lots of relatives so I had such a
warm spot in my heart for this place, Michigan, you see. Oh sure, I think, when you are growing
up and you go away to school, I bet you felt it too when you went away to Harvard. First you
think oh well, that little town, but it looks better and better to me now. With the population
explosion, I am anxious to come back to a few free acres.
Interviewer: Do you think it is more interesting place when you do come back, as you have more
recently? You have been coming back more frequently, I wonder if you have noticed significant
change?
Elizabeth: I can‟t tell, because I don‟t see that many people, Lee. When I come here, I have a
fairly superficial look at the town. If I lived here and sort of got into the swim and was part of the
community, then I could make a fair appraisal of that. When I came here the last year a great
deal, because my mother had been ill, you are practically the only the person outside of the
family that I see. Most of my friends have moved away. But I think, I have changed and I think I
appreciate your family and my family and just what the place is like more. I am not prejudiced
about small town living, because I live outside of New York.
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Interviewer: Okay, I think it about time to turn the cartridge over.
SIDE TWO of Tape #51
Interviewer: Elizabeth has stepped out of the room for just a moment and I thought I would fill
in with a few remarks of my own. I have lived most of my life in Grand Rapids except for the
three years at the Ashville School near Ashville, North Carolina. It was the tenth, eleventh and
twelfth grades. It was the school that my father had attended. I graduated in nineteen forty-two,
he graduated in nineteen fourteen and while I was at the school he was elected as a trustee of the
school and he was always interested in the school and talked a great deal about it and I listened
as a small boy. And he had no strong feeling about where I was going to college. He went to the
University of Wisconsin, where I think he got a good education. He didn‟t have the feeling about
Wisconsin that he had about Asheville. So when I was about to graduate from Asheville school, I
hadn‟t made up my mind where I wanted to go to college. One group of friends were interested
in going to the University of Michigan, they were mostly Grand Rapids boys that I had known,
Dick Steketee, Monroe Tolliver, and Steve Bryant. I think, I am missing somebody but that is
pretty much it. And then I had some other friends who were going to Harvard, Jack Darryl,
Robert Sposum from Cleveland. A friend that had dropped out of Asheville, but has since
become a very good friend, Matt Clark. He didn‟t finish at Asheville but he joined us at Harvard
and there was another very close friend David Ketcham who came from Cohasset,
Massachusetts. I finally decided I wanted to go with them, I thought was closer with them and
had many more interests in common than I had with my Grand Rapids friends. Then I had the
advantages of an accelerated, or perhaps the disadvantages of an accelerated college experience,
because I went all year round for three years and graduated in nineteen forty-five but as a
member of the class of nineteen forty-six. I worked after that starting around the first of January
or the second I suppose, of January of nineteen forty-six until October nineteen fifty when I
journeyed to California where I stayed for four and half years. I won‟t go into all that now,
because this is not an interview about me, but I lived in the city of San Francisco most of those
years that I lived out there in California. Of course, I got another point of view about Grand
Rapids, frankly I was always very torn when I lived out there because I loved San Francisco but I
also knew where my roots were and for family reasons, I returned to Grand Rapids and have
lived here, with the exception of two years on the eastern side of the state in the village of
Clarkston, ever since. Now my cousin has returned, and we will continue. Elizabeth, where were
we?
Elizabeth: Let‟s see. Well, Lee, I think we‟d come to the end of the Neighborhood Playhouse,
those two years at the Neighborhood Playhouse, we were going over things so fast, Lee. I could
talk about those two years, for a long time. I should also say, between those years at the
Playhouse I went to a stock company in Cape May, New Jersey, that was a very important
summer, I went as an apprentice. I didn‟t have to pay that summer but in the middle of the
summer, the leading woman had to go back to New York. And the manager of the theatre said I
would like you to be the leading woman. It sounds a little fancier than it was, the actual fact was
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the producer was a well, a penny pincher, rather than paying transportation for anybody to come
back from New York to Cape May, New Jersey, he just turned around and pointed at me, that‟s
what really happened and said you will be the leading woman. And that was how I became the
leading woman. But, what it meant was that I became a member of actors union, equity. Well
now, if you aren‟t an actor you can‟t know how important that is. You can‟t be a professional
actor, if you are not a member of the union, and you can‟t be a member of the union if you are
not a professional actor. That was quite something in the middle of my school year, my two
years to my path to become a professional actor. What it meant was, we had to find a hundred
dollars, because that‟s what it cost to join the union, heaven knows what it cost now. My father
sent me a hundred dollars, that was something, and I became a member of the Professional
Actors‟ Union, Actors‟ Equity in nineteen forty-three. See how long I have been an actress, a
professional actress? Anyway, that summer I had three jobs, I was in the apprentice company, a
member of the professional company, and I continued acting in both of those companies.
Because in those days, the wages were so low, I was also waiting on table. I had a job as a
waitress; I‟ve had so many part time jobs that I have had more than anyone I ever heard of.
Anyway, I had the job of waitress, so I would work in the morning, breakfast and lunch as a
waitress and then go to the theatre in the afternoon and evening. And somehow I was never tired,
I don‟t quite know. Anyway, but now I have graduated from the Neighborhood Playhouse in
nineteen forty-four, and that was quite an occasion because Helen Hayes who everybody has
heard of, was a member of the Board of Directors for the playhouse and she saw me in our final
play. I had the lead in the final play called A Murder in the Nunnery. Murder in a Nunnery, She
wrote a letter which to this day I remember. It was to whom it may concern, but it was written to
a number of producers, “I would like to introduce Elizabeth Wilson, who I think is an
exceptionally talented actress and I think someday we will all be very proud to have helped her.”
I memorized it, as you can imagine. That was a great boon, Lee, because I took that letter to
producers. People again, who aren‟t actors have no idea, now looking back I don‟t know how I
did it. There are thousands and thousands of people that come to New York every year wanting
to be actors. How I ever did it I don‟t know, but I couldn‟t do it now. But I had a lot of nerve,
and so I would call producers and call agents and say I have a letter from Miss Hayes, from
Helen Hayes and that was unusual; and they would say, ”Oh, we‟d like to see you.” So I got into
their offices and got to meet people because of Miss Hayes. And she wanted me to tour with her
that summer. I remember when I came back in the summer of nineteen forty-four; again the war
was much present on our minds. And Miss Hayes wanted me to go on a play that she was touring
called Harriet, but I was too tall to play her daughter, because she is only five feet tall and so I
didn‟t get to go because I wouldn‟t have been believable, because I was almost a foot taller. So I
went back to New York that fall and had a very hard time and didn‟t get anything that whole fall,
and I guess that I had some pretty rough times, I babysat, I worked in an insurance office and I
had all sorts of odd jobs. And so in the spring of forty-five, I got my first real job, and the war
was still on and it was with the USO. And that was my first honest to goodness job.
Interviewer: Let‟s pause for just a moment.
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Elizabeth: Alright.
Interviewer: And now we‟re in the USO as it were.
Elizabeth: Well, it‟s strange you know, I assume, well, all sorts of people will listen to this tape.
In nineteen forty-five, the whole attitude towards the Second World War was a good deal
different, than it has been toward recent wars. There was something really splendid, hard to
believe, but true about entertaining the troops, which is indeed what I was doing. It sounds so
corny and strange even as I say it. It was a funny little play called What a Life about, it was
Henry Aldrich, it had been a popular radio program and the play was a big success on Broadway,
What a Life and there were many companies of it. The USO was quite an important adjunct of
the Armed Services of the Special Services Branch, that‟s what we were. Our group was going to
the South Pacific; we didn‟t know where we were going that was great security. We traveled on a
troop ship from San Francisco; it took us one month to get to New Guinea because we had to
crisscross back and forth across the Pacific because of the Japanese submarines. We were
without an escort; we weren‟t in a convoy, so it took us a whole month to get to New Guinea.
Anyway, we played to the Army and Navy and the Air Force in New Guinea and all thorough
the Philippine Islands, and of course, the war ended as we were leaving the coast of America. VE-Day came in, was it, April of nineteen forty-five, or something like that, and we were four or
five days out of San Francisco when V-E Day came, and that was something. And we were in the
Philippine Islands when V-J-Day occurred. So when our little troupe again after playing through
the Philippine Islands we went up to Japan and continued to play. I could talk about that year; we
played under the most extraordinary circumstances. We played for a dozen men and we played
for fourteen thousand men. Sometimes we played in great outdoor theatres, the Seabees, the
branch of the Army that, I guess, built the bridges. They built these really magnificent theatres in
the middle of the jungles, the men would sometimes sit in bleachers, but sometimes they would
hang out of trees. And the play was perfectly innocuous, and so they enjoyed it. They had stars
who, personalities, but I think our play was, well I know they enjoyed it. And then I came home,
and came directly to Grand Rapids, and that was in nineteen forty-six; I came back to Grand
Rapids and did a play for the Civic Theatre, Bert Yarborough was still the director of the Civic
Theatre. In the spring of nineteen forty-six I did My Sister Ilene with Buddy Dillingham, playing
well, I was Ruth and she was Ilene, and that was a big success. Then I went back to New York
and couldn‟t get a job, it was very hard. Couldn‟t get a job and my friend Robert Porterfield at
the Barter Theatre, I remember I auditioned for the director. Which is the reason why I always,
well, he has been dead for about three years, Robert Porterfield; I loved him so much because
he‟d hired a number of directors for the summer of forty-six. And I auditioned for him and no,
there was no room; the season was full, there was nothing to do. So, I went back to the little
place I was living in New York, and I was very depressed, and it happened a lot. And the phone
rang, and it was Robert Porterfield saying that well, it‟s perfectly true we don‟t have any place
for you, and all the jobs are filled, but come anyway. Well, I did and I somehow made a space
for myself and before I knew it, I was playing the lead. By that time, the director‟s changed their
�14
minds and said no, I think you can play that part. By the end of the season, I was the leading
woman and I went on tour. And it was the Barter Theatre the first State Theatre of Virginia.
Robert Porterfield had gotten money from the state capital in Richmond and we had to play all
the cities of Virginia. Well, practically all the cities of Virginia, except little itty bitty ones, we
played all over high schools, gymnasiums all over the state. Then we toured outside the state of
Virginia; many actors, Gregory Peck, Ernest Borgnine, Pat Neal, Hume Cronyn, and you name it
and most of them were in that theatre and most of them I knew an worked with. It was a
wonderful place, the two places that stand out in my career are the Neighborhood Playhouse and
the Barter Theatre, because I went back to that place for many years and learned how to become
an actress in front of an audience, which let‟s face it, it‟s the only way you are going to learn.
And between nineteen forty-six and nineteen fifty-three I did a lot of other things. I state it that
way, Lee because it was in nineteen fifty-three I got my first Broadway job. It was almost ten
years from the day I graduated, I did work out in summer stock, I toured with Veronica Lake one
summer, and with Edward Everett Horton, and I always managed to get a job in the summertime.
And because of Robert Porterfield I learned and grew, I dare say, got big parts, and played with
his theatre, toured all over the country, one night stands. But it wasn‟t until nineteen fifty-three,
Helen Hayes, again because of the letter she wrote. Josh, Joshua Logan who had directed South
Pacific, Mr. Roberts and probably the most famous director on Broadway at the time, was going
to direct the play called Picnic by William Inge. And I went to an audition and I dressed the part,
I heard the woman was a kind of dowdy school teacher. School teachers won‟t like that
description, but she was a Kansas City teacher and taught feminine hygiene and she was a pretty
strange character, at any rate, I dressed the part and went back several times and finally, I think
the second or third reading, this doesn‟t happen very often and this was produced by the theatre
guild. And we can go back and back about them; they produced all of the Eugene O‟Neil plays.
And they were all out there, all of the theatre guild under the lights, and Josh Logan and
everyone; they told me I had the part. I remember rushing home to my apartment which I then
shared with my sister Mary, and bursting into tears, I couldn‟t believe it, after all these years.
Because that was my dream. I think, Lee I could have died right then. That is what I wanted to be
in a Broadway play. I thought my goodness, that was some day.
Interviewer: And you remember going to San Francisco?
Elizabeth: Very well.
Interviewer: Because I was there.
Elizabeth: Of course, you were there. We had a wonderful time.
Interviewer: I think that is one of the last times I ever saw you on the stage.
Elizabeth: Yes, I remember that very well. We were living on Nob Hill. You had a wonderful
apartment.
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Interviewer: Eleven-thirty Sacramento Street.
Elizabeth: What Lee is talking about now is the national tour of Picnic. Picnic became a huge
success on Broadway; we played at the Music Box Theatre on West Forty-Fifth Street for two
years. Ralph Meeker, Kim Stanley, Paul Newman, Joanne Woodward was an understudy, that‟s
when they met, Janice Rule, Eileen Heckart, Arthur O‟Connell. It was an extraordinary cast. And
Kim Stanley was probably the greatest living, well she is. Everybody acknowledges she isn‟t
working now because again.
Interviewer: She is what?
Elizabeth: American Actress. I think that is safe to say. No one will debate me. However, she
was the younger sister. She played the younger sister, but we‟re talking about the national tour.
After we played Broadway, Josh Logan asked me to play the mother in the national tour and that
was quite a thrill. So I moved from the small part of Christine Schoenwalder, Christine
Schoenwalder probably had eleven lines, if she had two. The teachers had quite a lot of scenes
and then I went on the national tour. The when the national tour was over, Josh Logan asked me
to be in the movie, so Picnic was my first movie. And I was flown to California and there were
only some of the original cast, three of us from the original Broadway cast. That was Kim
Novak, played in the movie and William Holden, and the three school teachers were Rosalind
Russell and Rita Shaw and myself; we were from the original cast. So that was my first film, as
you can imagine that was pretty exciting. We filmed it in Kansas, and took all summer, and then
in the middle of summer, I was told, I had done a television show in New York, called Patterns
by Rod Sterling, since has become famous. He‟s done Twilight Zones, famous writer and so
forth. He‟d been a great success, and so I was asked to be in the movie version of Patterns. So
that summer after I finished the movie of Picnic, the second movie with Van Heflin and Everett
Stone, Ed Begley in Patterns which we filmed in New York. And oh, gracious, Lee, where do
you want to go, now we are getting into the sort of nitty gritty, this was the fifties and I suppose
the main plays I did then were things like Tunnel of Love, Desk Set, and did the movie versions,
the movie version of Tunnel of Love with Doris Day, let‟s see, I am, not really skipping. I am just
trying to think. In the early sixties, a very important thing, I got to be in a play called Big Fish,
Little Fish. And, Mike Nichols saw me in that and that was a great turning point in my life
because from then on practically everything he did, since then I have done six things for him, the
mother in the Graduate opposite Dustin Hoffman playing my son. I played in Catch 22, and The
Day of the Dolphin and then in New York I was in Plaza Suite and the revival of Little Foxes.
And the most recent play in New York with Mike Nichols was Uncle Vanya which was a great
success with George C. Scott, and Julie Christi and Nicole Williamson, the great English actor,
and Lillian Gish, and Katherine Nesbitt.
Interviewer: As I recall you got wonderful reviews.
Elizabeth: Yes, wonderful reviews, a great success.
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Interviewer: Was that two summers ago?
Elizabeth: Exactly two summers ago we were doing.
Interviewer: You‟ve skipped a lot of …
Elizabeth: Yes, we‟ve done a big skip, but I‟m getting a little tired and I‟m sure you‟re ….well,
can‟t we just? Well, you ask me some.
Interviewer: What about, why don‟t you talk a little about Eastside/Westside. Explain that.
Elizabeth: Eastside/Westside was a television series that we did ten years ago, on CBS with
George C. Scott and Cicely Tyson and myself, and…
Interviewer: That was quite a success as I recall.
Elizabeth: Yes, it was a good series, a bit before its time, I think.
Interviewer: Yes, since then you have gotten to know Mr. Scott and one of his ex-wives Miss
Dewhurst, quite well.
Elizabeth: Yes, Colleen Dewhurst. Well, I worked with George so many times. George and I did
Uncle Vanya and Colleen and I did a play in New York, Colleen Dewhurst, who is really a
superb actress, we did a play at Lincoln Center, a Brecht play called The Good Woman of
Szechwan.
Interviewer: How do you spell that?
Elizabeth: Lord, I don‟t know how to spell Szechwan, it‟s The Good Woman of Szechwan.
Interviewer: Is that a town or place?
Elizabeth: Well, it‟s Chinese.
Interviewer: I see, a Chinese word.
Elizabeth: It‟s, you know we all know Szechwan cooking.
Interviewer: Yes.
Elizabeth: Is that Northern China, or I‟m not sure?
Interviewer: I‟m not very good at Chinese.
Elizabeth: I am a good student.
Interviewer: I take it you still see a great deal of Colleen Dewhurst?
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Elizabeth: Yes, she is one of my closest friends.
Interviewer: Who are some of your other close friends in New York? In the theatre world?
Elizabeth: Dustin Hoffman is a good friend; we have worked together a lot. We did an off
Broadway play before we did The Graduate; we did a play called EH? Then we were in a movie
together that nobody ever heard of called The Tiger Makes Out in which Dusty had a tiny part
and I had a tiny part. Eli Wallach and Anne Jackson were in that. Then we did The Graduate.
Dustin and I are good friends. Maureen Stapleton and I since Plaza Suite have become very close
friends, she is a lovely woman. George Scott, of course, George Grizzard is a friend of mine, I
am trying to think. The people in the movies, Paul and Joann Newman are friends, Gene
Hackman is an old friend; we worked together in television in the old days. Peter Falk, I studied,
when I returned in the fall from Sandy Meisner, after the play, I went back for a refresher course
about ten years later and that is when I met Peter, he is a friend, did television with him. Oh,
gracious Lee.
Interviewer: Why don‟t we just move up to the present and tell us, me about your forthcoming
TV series. How it came about.
Elizabeth: Well, I am about to embark on something that is rather exciting, I suppose, I hope. I
suppose how it came about, because these things are complicated. I have been going back and
forth from California a great deal, because there is a less and less activity in New York City and
fewer plays are being performed. Most of us that are still professional actors have to work and in
television and movies, which indeed I have been doing the last few years. The Prisoner of
Second Avenue and so forth. And the last two years I have been doing lots of television. I dare
say, have done about fifteen, All in the Family, Maude, and specials, Easter Specials and
Christmas Specials and thing like that. About two years ago I was in California doing what they
call a pilot, each season the television networks do shows which they show to the network and
the networks decide if a show is worthy of being made into a television series. And they make
hundreds of them, and the first year, I made something called We’ll Get By and it finally got on
the air, but it got on the air with an entirely different family which often happens. Then the
second year, I did another one, again for CBS called Another April, which didn‟t quite make it.
But as a result of seeing Barnard Hughes and myself in Another April, CBS decided they would
make a third pilot film, this one was called Doc and it‟s about a husband and wife in MidManhattan today, contemporary story, a comedy written and produced by the people who do the
Mary Tyler Moore shows. Low and behold about a month ago and they said that CBS had
bought the pilot and we were going to start making the television series, starting July tenth
nineteen seventy-five. And Lee, I just couldn‟t believe it, the odds. I tell you, they make
hundreds of these things every year. The reason is they test them, show them around for
whatever reason, and they‟ve chosen to do this. And let‟s hope it turns out and we start making
thirteen and if they like it the network will pick it up and do thirteen more. So there you are.
That‟s what my next...
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Interviewer: How soon will you know if they like it or not?
Elizabeth: I think about midway through the thirteen, Lee. I think the middle of August we
should know.
Interviewer: I see.
Elizabeth: It will go on the air anyway; they‟ll put sixteen, not sixteen, six on. The television
season starts the middle of September and…
Interviewer: Do you what time?
Elizabeth: Yes, Matter of fact they told us. It precedes the Mary Tyler Moore Show at eightthirty.
Interviewer: Saturday night?
Elizabeth: Saturday night and there is, and what they have told us, but that can change, but at
the moment that‟s what they‟re saying. So in the meantime, I am having a lovely time in Grand
Rapids. It is very beautiful here and I really…..It is really nice to be an actress, you work really
hard but you get lot‟s more free time than most people. Your work is very concentrated, work
hard for three or four weeks or three or four months on a project and then you have two or three
weeks off, which is wonderful, I like that.
Interviewer: Sure. Relieves the monotony.
Elizabeth: I like being an actress, I do. I am very lucky, very lucky indeed.
Interviewer: Let‟s pause for just a moment.
Interviewer: Elizabeth, you‟ve said to me that being an actor can be very nerve-racking. Will
you like to enlarge on that, and talk about that? Enlarge on it.
Elizabeth: Sure, the psychology, the need for somebody or desire for somebody to perform
hasn‟t been fully explored, and I think most actors had better not think too much about it. You
know exhibitionism or something is not a very attractive trait, but I think when it becomes an art
form. You are truly portraying a character in a play that‟s worth portraying. But it‟s a very nerveracking business, Lee. I think I try, lately try not to let it bother me, as much as it use to, as it
sometimes does. But, it is nerve-racking because there you are, out in front of if not a hundred, or
several thousand, you are in front of a television camera. And you are totally exposed, and it‟s
the only reason you know, you can survive it all because again, this complicated mechanism that
takes over when you are actually acting, because when you are acting, you are not yourself, you
are not yourself, you are playing another person. And any psychologist or psychiatrist will tell
you, I often say if I wouldn‟t have been an actress, I would have been put away. I don‟t suppose
that is literally true, but I do enjoy fantasizing, I have a big imagination. When I was a little girl,
�19
I would pretend to be in another situation. We all do that when we are growing up, but the only
difference is that actors continue doing it. That is why most grown-up people think being an
actor is kind of you know, silly. Well, I suppose in a way it is. It could be a little degrading for
some men find to be an actor is to be you know, having to wear makeup. And I know a lot of
men that find it degrading, or could be considered degrading. I feel, I am enjoying it more and
more, and to get back to your original question, about it being nerve-racking. I find that I am
enjoying it more and not allowing it to put me through the agony, but I am telling you it can.
Opening night on Broadway, you see, when everything is at stake, now that is just excruciating.
There are not very many times in most people‟s lives when they are that frightened. I mean,
actors or anybody that has to get up and perform knows what I am talking about, but it is just
terrifying. Because as somebody once said jokingly before an opening night on Broadway, don‟t
worry it‟s just your career at stake. Because it is just that kind of thing, as I said to you, I believe
the other day. It is a very unnatural thing for just the two of us, perfectly charming room and this
beautiful June day looking out at the trees, we are performing in a way. Now my heart isn‟t
pounding the way it does before I have to step on stage, or before we started the pilot for Doc,
which is the last work I have done, my heart was pounding, Lee and I was pacing back and forth
and so was Barnard Hughes and we were doing that because so much was at stake. I mean, I
don‟t know what was in Barney‟s head, but we were thinking if we really are good this day on
this show, this will be become a television series, just think what that will mean to our families,
and to our lives. There is just so much at stake every time you step out. It is hard being an actor
because you get rejected. People say I could never be an actor because you get rejected all the
time. Well, you do; you are constantly, being put up against other people, the competition is so
keen. You know just recently, I have been considered for a part, I may as well say, in a new film
All the President’s Men. Now Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman want me to play this part,
Kay Graham. Whether I get this I don‟t know. Each day in the paper there is a report. One day it
says I am going to be playing, the next day it says Lauren Bacall will be playing. Today it says
Pat Neal and Lauren Bacall, but who knows, but I‟ll be rejected, probably maybe not, but I have
to take it. But I always figure each time I take a rejection, it is like a little niche somewhere in
my sensitivity kind of does a zero. When I go back to New York, perhaps I‟ll have to go audition
for some things. It doesn‟t matter where you are in the theatre, you can be a great and important
star, and you still get turned down. And most people in their lives, when they reach a certain
position don‟t get turned down for things as often as actors do, it‟s a very…
Interviewer: You, sort of, have to start all over again.
Elizabeth: You begin, I am starting all over again with this television series and the critics can
either make or break me. It is rough, really rough.
Interviewer: I understand, I don‟t think they can break you.
Elizabeth: If it was a real disaster, they can make it hard for me to get another job.
�20
Interviewer: I trust that doesn‟t happen and I am not going to worry about it, I want to regress a
little for a moment because the reason for doing some of these tapes is to talk about people from
Grand Rapids and this area and get their impressions.
I was interested in, as we drove to the little town of Ionia, which is a small town some thirty
miles east of Grand Rapids, it just so happens some of our grandparents, came from Ionia, were
brought up there in the nineteenth century to Grand Rapids as in the case of your grandfather
Wilson, he came some time during the eighteen eighties and my grandfather Hutchins who was
his brother in law came in eighteen ninety-eight and have been here ever since. In a real sense we
have never had much of family in Ionia, except when we were rather young, we had one or two
relatives, most, all of them are now in the graveyard. The reason for our going was that there was
a house tour that day, and it had been written up in the Detroit paper, and one of my hobbies is
Victorian architecture. And I realized, because I do get back to Ionia from time to time and, there
would be some interesting houses to see and that you in particular might be interested to see. It
just so happened, that it was a very successful experience, but just let me say I thought when we
left that we might be home in three or four hours. As I recall we left at nine-thirty in the morning
and rolled into our driveway at quarter after four. I had the feeling that you were enjoying it
but…
Elizabeth: Wouldn‟t you like to know why?
Interviewer: Yes.
Elizabeth: Architecture is interesting to someone who is romantic. I am a romantic, I‟m
interested in the past and I am interested in the future too. I am interested in all that, it seems to
have a great effect, Lee, on what I do. When I did the Chekov play Uncle Vanya for example I
was very much effected by that period, that was eighteen ninety. I know for example when we
went into the Voigt House, it is that same period, I am so fascinated because by then I knew
exactly, Tony Walton who is a superb set designer, one of his great movies is the Orient Express,
Murder on the Orient Express. He did the costume and set designs our production of Uncle
Vanya, and they were absolutely authentic and divine. The Voigt house meant a great deal to me
just as the houses in Ionia did. I sort of transplant myself into that situation, into that time and I
can just imagine, imagine living in Ionia in those houses that we visited and I particularly like
visiting your friend and having lunch, you know, with Mrs. Osley.
Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Osley.
Elizabeth: Mrs. Osley and having lunch with her. She was just so interesting, Lee. People ask
me, “Do you study characters, do you watch people? Are you always on the alert for somebody
you might play?” I don‟t do that; I don‟t see how anybody could. I just happily live from
moment to moment, but I probably store it up in my head. But there was something so romantic,
so very romantic, so dramatic that she was leaving that house after all these years and we were
probably her last visitors.
�21
Interviewer: That‟s right we probably were.
Elizabeth: I just don‟t know, it‟s a different type of thing. To go to a town like Ionia, in a way it
is very relaxing, but it also is very interesting, to see those authentic….
Interviewer: Did you, the fact that you knew that your family had come from Ionia was that a
factor in your enjoyment of that day or was that a secondary factor?
Elizabeth: No, I think that is one of the reasons why that whole thing means so much, meant so
much.
Interviewer: I was interested because, at one point, just before we went to the Presbyterian
Church, before or after, you wanted to see the site where our great grandmother and great
grandfather had lived. The house was torn down a few years ago and now there was nothing
except a gravel parking lot. I couldn‟t help but notice you went to the center of the parking lot,
and stood there and looked around and yet you weren‟t looking at anything interesting, it is just a
parking lot, yet you seemed to want to walk into the area and stay there a few moments perhaps.
That seemed to mean something to you.
Elizabeth: You are very observant, Lee, you are extremely observant, I wanted to be there, I
wanted to have a sense of, my grandfather, whom I never knew Charles Wilson was born there
and I just wanted to have a sense of him, a sense of the spirit of the man. I don‟t know, I just felt
moved by the fact that my great grandfather and great grandmother and uncles and my
grandfather lived on that spot. And goodness only knows what must have happened in that
house, and there it was, and I felt it….
Interviewer: Except no house.
Elizabeth: No house, but a vacant lot, I felt a very spiritual thing, when I stood there. It‟s true.
Interviewer: Let‟s hope we can go back again, someday and go on another house tour. Hope your
visits to Western Michigan are frequent. And continue to commute between Hollywood and New
York. Because I do think you should keep your apartment there. I don‟t think living in Southern
California will ever suit you, but that is just my opinion, as I said. This has been delightful and
the hour is growing nigh to close. And leave this to prosperity to ponder.
Elizabeth: Alright, thank you, Lee.
Interviewer: Thank you, Elizabeth.
�22
INDEX
A
Aldrich, Henry · 14
B
Bacall, Lauren · 21
Baker, Elvira · 7
Barter Theatre · 8, 9, 15
Begley, Ed · 17
Blodgett Memorial Hospital · 2
Boon, Camilla · 5
Booth, Edwin · 5
Booth, Shirley · 8
Borgnine, Ernest · 15
Bryant, Steve · 12
Buck, Miss · 4
C
Central High School · 3
Central Junior High school · 3
Cherryman, Myrtle Koon · 5
Christi, Julie · 17
Clark, Matt · 12
Cornell, Katherine · 6
Cronyn, Hume · 15
Cunningham, Robert · 7
Einecke, Mary · 4
Evoie, Alex · 8
F
Falk, Peter · 18
Ford, Betty · 10
Fountain Street School · 2, 3
G
Gish, Lillian · 17
Graham, Martha · 9, 10, 11
Grand Rapids Street Railway Company · 8
Grizzard, George · 18
H
Hackman, Gene · 18
Hanchett family · 7, 8
Hanchett, Elizabeth · 7, 8
Hanchett, Gerald · 7, 8
Hayes, Helen · 13, 15
Heckart, Janice · 16
Heflin, Van · 17
Hoffman, Dustin · 17, 18, 21
Holden, William · 16
Horton, Edward Everett · 15
Hughes, Barnard · 19, 21
Hutchins, Mrs. Lee Wilson · 4
D
Darryl, Jack · 12
Day, Doris · 17
Depression · 9
Dewhurst, Colleen · 18
Dillingham, Alex · 6
Dillingham, Buddy · 14
Dunning, Jane Wadsworth · 1
E
Einecke, Harold · 4
I
Idema, David · 6
Inge, William · 15
Irving, Washington · 5
J
Jackson, Anne · 18
Jefferson, Joseph · 4, 5
�23
K
R
Ketcham, David · 12
Klein, Evelyn · 6
Redford, Robert · 21
Roosevelt, Eleanor · 9
Rule, Janice · 16
Russell, Rosalind · 16
L
Lake, Veronica · 15
Lee, Vivian · 7
Lewis, Amy · 7
Logan, Joshua · 15, 16
M
Marywood Academy · 3, 4, 5
Meeker, Ralph · 16
Meisner, Sandy · 10, 19
Meisner, Sanford · 9
Mencarelli, Jim · 2
Muir, Elizabeth Ewing · 1
N
Neal, Patricia · 9, 15, 21
Neighborhood Playhouse · 9, 10, 12, 15
Nesbitt, Katherine · 17
Newman, Joann · 18
Newman, Paul · 16, 18
Nichols, Mike · 17
Novak, Kim · 16
O
O‟Connell, Arthur · 16
O‟Neil, Eugene · 15
Olivier, Lawrence · 7
Osley, Mrs. · 22
P
Park Congregational Church · 3, 4
Peck, Gregory · 15
Phillips, Margaret · 9
Porterfield, Robert · 9, 15
S
Scott, George C. · 17, 18
Shaw, Rita · 16
Sonke, Dorothy · 5
Sposum, Robert · 12
Stanley, Kim · 16
Stapleton, Maureen · 18
Steenwyk and Thrall · 2
Steketee, Dick · 12
Sterling, Rod · 17
Stone, Everett · 17
T
Tolliver, Monroe · 12
Tyson, Cicely · 17
V
Voigt House · 22
W
Wallach, Eli · 18
Walton, Tony · 22
Ware, David · 6
Welter, Ferdinand · 1
Welter, Marie Ethel · 1
Westminster Presbyterian Church · 3, 4
Williams, Betty · 6
Williamson, Nicole · 17
Wilson, Charles · 1, 6, 23
Wilson, Charles Moseman · 1
Wilson, Elizabeth Welter · 1
Wilson, Henry · 6
Wilson, Henry Dunning · 1
Wilson, Mary · 6
Wilson, Mrs. Charles · 2
Wilson, Mrs. Charles (Angeline) · 6
�24
Wilson, Mrs. Seymour · 2
Woodward, Joanne · 16
World War Two · 7, 14
Y
Yarborough, Bertram · 6, 14
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/831da3c2271303ad1c188b393b59021b.mp3
30c92c171935cd349e77388053ffe167
Dublin Core
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Title
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
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Various
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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application/pdf; audio/mp3
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eng
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RHC-23
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1971 - 1977
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RHC-23_51Wilson
Title
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Wilson, Elizabeth
Creator
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Wilson, Elizabeth
Description
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Elizabeth Welter Wilson was born in Grand Rapids on April 4, 1921. Miss Wilson attended the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in New York. She was acquainted with well-known stage personalities, among them Helen Hayes and Shirley Booth. Miss Wilson co-starred on the TV series.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Women
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Text
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application/pdf
audio/mp3
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Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
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1975
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/36e1106395c5d5c93de33d39275282ba.pdf
84bb7dc1bf45614d6e1ea8e116f0803d
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mr. Donald G. Denison.
Interviewed on May 15, 1975
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape # 50 (51:21)
Biographical Information
Donald G. Denison was born 22 April 1891 in Grand Rapids and died 21 Aug 1983. He was the
son of Arthur C. Denison and Susan L. Goodrich. He married Adeline Smith in 1917.
Arthur Carter Denison, son of Julius Coe Denison and Cornelia Carter was born 11 November
1861 in Paris Township, Kent County. He died 24 May 1942 in Cleveland, Ohio and was buried
in the Oak Hill Cemetery in Grand Rapids. Susan L. Goodrich, daughter of Hiram and Cornelia
Goodrich, was born on 17 June 1864 in Grand Rapids and died on 5 May 1896 at the age of 31
and was buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. Arthur and Susan were married 7 September 1886 in
Grand Rapids.
On 24 May 1898 Arthur married as his second wife, Julia B. Barlow, the daughter of Heman G.
and J. Ruth (Hall) Barlow. Julia was born in November 1875 in Grand Rapids. She passed away
on 6 July 1956 in Grand Rapids and was buried in Oak Hill Cemetery.
___________
Interviewer: This is the interview being conducted at the residence of Mr. Donald Denison, 31
South Prospect, on May fifteenth, nineteen seventy-five.
I thought we’d start the interview by talking about the death of Mr. Denison’s grandfather which
occurred on June twenty-fifth, eighteen seventy-seven. I’ll let you take it on from there, Mr.
Denison.
Donald: Alright, I’ll begin on how he got there. He came out here, I think in the early fifties,
perhaps, and he bought two farms…one to the north of Grand Rapids and one to the south of
Grand Rapids. And he farmed both of these places for several years. Somewhere along the way
he…. he came into knowledge of this house at the corner of Ransom and Lyon.
Interviewer: At the northwest corner, right?
Donald: Yes.
Interviewer: Which had been left high and dry in the air, by the cutting down of Ransom Street
and Lyon Street, and I suppose he bought it for a comparative bargain because of that reason.
Interviewer: Do you know who built the house?
�2
Donald: No, but, somewhere around here is a clipping that tells all about it, I can perhaps find it
before we get through.
Interviewer: Yes, and your…I think you mentioned that your father had helped build a retaining
wall there.
Donald: Grandfather bought the place at a bargain I assume and built the retaining wall of the
stone from the Grand River.
Interviewer: OK.
Donald: And my father, remembered vaguely, thinking he was helping his father with the
stonework. He was probably a small boy of four or five…
Interviewer: Yes.
Donald: or so.
Interviewer: Your father was born in eighteen sixty-one.
Donald: Born in sixty-one, so this would’ve been in, in…
Interviewer: Well, in the middle…
Donald: Either that or in the late sixties sometime, yes.
Interviewer: Well, I remember the house quite well because it was, well, it was sort of quaint,
noted house...
Donald: Yes.
Interviewer: …and was built of Grand River Limestone, I believe. How long did your family live
on in that house?
Donald: They lived here only until he died, wait a minute, longer than that. He died in seventyseven.
Interviewer: Right.
Donald: And, they lived there at least, they possessed the house until I would think the early
eighties.
Interviewer: Ok.
Donald: I know, there’s some diaries of my father’s who can make some kind a sale? And at that
time, I think he was in Ann Arbor, as a law student.
�3
Interviewer: Yes.
Donald: So they had it for some years.
Interviewer: Let me shut it off for a second…About or what year did your father-grandfather
come to Grand Rapids?
Donald: In the early fifties
Interviewer: In the early fifties? Where was he born?
Donald: He was born at, are we on the air now?’
Interviewer: Yes, he was born in....
Donald: Born in Durham, New York.
Interviewer: Durham, New York.
Donald: Which was in the Catskills.
Interviewer: I see.
Donald: And that family, his father’s name was John. That family came from Durham, New
York to….
Interviewer: To Durham?
Donald: To Eastern New York.
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
Donald: And settled…
Interviewer: Well…
Donald: I, trying to think…
Interviewer: Well, was it an old colonial family?
Donald: They came from…Yes; they came a generation or two before that from Connecticut.
The first Denison was discovered in Connecticut in sixteen forty.
Interviewer: Did he arrive there about that time?
Donald: He was discovered there but….
Interviewer: I see.
�4
Donald: How he got there or when, nobody knows.
Interviewer: Your grandfather’s name was Julius, right?
Donald: My grandfather’s name was Julius.
Interviewer: He didn’t live for a great many years; I think he died when he was about fifty-four.
Maybe you can describe the account of his death?
Donald: Yes, there was a dispute to which he ended up-ended up before the alderman or the
board of supervisors, whoever was in control of the city and county of that time, as to allowing
or not allowing cattle to graze in the streets, besides the streets. Now whether that grandfather’s
interest was pro or con, I don’t know.
Interviewer: I think it was pro; at least it seemed that he wanted cows to be allowed in there.
Donald: Should or should not cows be allowed?
Interviewer: Yes.
Donald: And he appeared before the council, to speak on the subject. But whether he was pro or
con, I never knew.
Interviewer: Well, I think the clipping is that I saw yesterday indicates that he was pro.
Donald: Alright, at any rate, in the middle of his little speech or talk that he was making, I think
he was standing before the council, he fell to the ground and promptly died. And whether he’d
had any previous troubles or, with heart or otherwise I don’t know but I don’t think so, I never
heard of any.
Interviewer: Was he active in farming?
Donald: Oh, yes.
Interviewer: But he lived downtown?
Donald: By this time, he lived in this house on the corner, what we’re talking about, and farmed
the two farms by horse and buggy.
Interviewer: Yes, I see but he actually lived right in the house in the heart of the city.
Donald: Operated these two farms.
Interviewer: One on the north end of town.
Donald: One was across…I have a hard trouble remembering the names.
�5
Interviewer: Well, some of the street names have changed, but I think it was almost up to the
Kent Country Club, right around there.
Donald: Right across Knapp Street from the present Kent Country Club was one farm. The other
was out Paris, which is now grown up and city.
Interviewer: Yes. And who was your grandmother?
Donald: Grandmother was Cornelia Carter.
Interviewer: Where did she come from?
Donald: Who also came from rural western New York.
Interviewer: Yes.
Donald: They were married before they came out here.
Interviewer: Did she outlive your grandfather for some years?
Donald: Yes, indeed, she lived until nineteen seventeen.
Interviewer: I have a note here, right. You must have pretty vivid memories of her?
Donald: Of course, I was married by that time, and she lived long enough to know Adeline, my
wife. We were married in nineteen seventeen.
Interviewer: Yes.
Donald: She was eighty-seven, I think.
Interviewer: So, she lived a long time after her husband died. I believe your family moved at
some point to a house also on Lyon Street, it was three twenty-nine; I drove by the house
yesterday. It is still there, it has been covered unfortunately with aluminum siding, but you must
remember that house. Were you born in that house?
Donald: I was born in that house, and lived there until I went to college.
Interviewer: Where did you go to college?
Donald: University of Michigan.
Interviewer: Right.
Donald: I graduated in nineteen thirteen.
�6
Interviewer: Your father [Arthur C.] was of course, a noted jurist and also went to University of
Michigan, I believe and took his law degree there. And then came back to practice in Grand
Rapids. Who were some of his earliest law partners and associates?
Donald: He was a junior partner, protégée’ of Edward Taggert. Edward Taggert was the uncle
of Johnson Taggert who was for many years the city attorney here.
Interviewer: Who was Moses Taggert?
Donald: Moses Taggert was Edward Taggert’s brother.
Interviewer: I see...
Donald: And …
Interviewer: He practiced law though with other men and I believe two great uncles of mine,
Hugh and Charles Wilson.
Donald: Alright, the firm original was just plain Taggert with father as a helper then, when he
came in it was Taggert and Denison, then your great uncle Charles joined them and for many
years and in my youth, it was Taggert, Denison and Wilson.
Interviewer: Yes, where did they have their offices?
Donald: They had their offices in the Michigan Trust building, where I could get a haircut for a
quarter, and tell the haircut operator that my father would pay it when he came along the next
day.
Interviewer: I see. I took the liberty of bringing some notes with me, but your father received an
appointment as federal judge directly from President Taft, is that correct?
Donald: Yes, he was appointed as successor to Judge Wanty, in nineteen nine, perhaps and
before very long, a matter of only few short years he was appointed to the Cincinnati Court,
where he continued until his seventieth birthday. Which was…
Interviewer: Well, it was in nineteen thirty-one, yes.
Donald: That sounds right.
Interviewer: He was born on the tenth of November. And there was an interesting….
Donald: Now…
Interviewer: Excuse me, go ahead.
Donald: At that time he resigned from the court, which is quite different for retiring. A retiring
judge as I understand it, is serving to call and still a member of the judiciary.
�7
Interviewer: Yes.
Donald: A resignee is through and free to go and practice law.
Interviewer: Why did he resign?
Donald: I presume to make some money. He would have never grown rich in the judicial
business and he had a notion of resigning and coming back to Grand Rapids acting in an
advisory capacity of someone here. He discussed the subject with Mr. Keeney.
Interviewer: But that didn’t materialize.
Donald: About that time Mr. Baker of Cleveland, the ex-Secretary of War….
Interviewer: Milton D. Baker.
Donald: Milton D. Baker suggested to father that perhaps it would be a good idea for him to
come down and join him as counsel, which appealed to him. And he did so; practiced law there
for some ten years, which were very successful and happy years for him in association with
Baker both socially and in the business.
Interviewer: Did you know Mr. Baker yourself?
Donald: I got to know him quite well and became a great admirer of him.
Interviewer: He was quite an interesting personality, I believe, but I don’t know much about him.
Donald: Well, I remember one thing about him. I was in his library in his house in Cleveland,
and the library was lined to the ceiling with books and in the frieze around the top was a set of
books in red leather and it made a complete frieze around the library. I asked him, “What are
they?” And he said one thing you got for being Secretary of War; that was when you left they
backed up a truck to your house and gave you the complete record of all the official documents
of the Civil War. That was a tradition and there they were. That reminded me to ask him a
question or two that puzzled me about Civil War times and he said well, let’s see. And he got a
ladder, brought it out, climbed up on the ladder and looked at the books and got one down and
studied it and answered my question.
Interviewer: So you learned something?
Donald: I learned something.
Interviewer: And Mr. Baker died before your father did, as I recall, but your father stayed on in
the firm.
Donald: Father was here visiting when he got a telephone call, that Mr. Baker had died. It was a
blow, of course.
�8
Interviewer: About when did your family move into this house?
Donald: nineteen sixteen.
Interviewer: Yes. Who built this house?
Donald: Mr. Sligh
Interviewer: Mr. Charles Sligh?
Donald: Mr. Charles Sligh built the house in eighteen ninety-one.
Interviewer: I see. Did he live here until the time of the sale?
Donald: He owned it until that time.
Interviewer: Yes.
Donald: The house was rented for a short time. I am trying to think of the name of the family.
The girl in the family married Paul Hollister.
Interviewer: Yes, I can’t tell you.
Donald: They rented this house for a very short time.
Interviewer: Yes.
Donald: Otherwise it never had occupants except Slighs and Denisons.
Interviewer: Now when your father went to Cleveland in nineteen thirty or thirty-one or thirtytwo, did you stay on in this house?
Donald: We moved into this house.
Interviewer: I see.
Donald: It had stood vacant for a time; then we moved into it.
Interviewer: And you are still here. Let’s see, let’s go back a minute, you were born in the house
over on Lyon Street, three twenty-nine?
Donald: And that’s right
Interviewer: Do you remember much about that neighborhood?
Donald: Well, I grew up there, so I remember a lot of course. The Idemas were our close
neighbors; they directly across the street.
Interviewer: Yes. And who were some of the other neighbors?
�9
Donald: The Henry Idemas, also Fred Idemas. Fred Idema was Henry Idema’s brother and they
lived right next to each other across the street. The Treadways lived next door to the Idemas and
the Whitmans built a house right next to us and sold it quite shortly to Frank Dykema.
Interviewer: Was he the druggist?
Donald: Dykemas, no (Pat was?)
Interviewer: Did the Barlows live nearby?
Donald: Barlows lived next door. They were my step-grandparents. We boys, there were three
of us and we really had two homes. It was humorously said that we would go into the two
kitchens to see which house was serving up the dinner that we liked we would settle down in that
house.
Interviewer: How old were you when your mother died?
Donald: Five years old. I remember her, vaguely remember a few fleeting pictures of her.
Interviewer: Your father remarried and married Julie Barlow.
Donald: And they were our next door neighbors, Julia Barlow, that’s right.
Interviewer: So you have pretty vivid memories of the Barlow family. Who are the Barlows; I
mean who were Mr. and Mrs. Barlow?
Donald: Heman Barlow was in the wholesale grocery business with Mr. Judson in what later
turned out to be the Judson Grocery Company. The Barlows were originally New England
family that turned into U.E. Loyalists and went to Canada and then re-immigrated here in 1860, I
think. How they got to Grand Rapids from Canada I do not know, but they came here when
Grandfather Barlow was ten years old
Interviewer: He was born in eighteen fifty, at one point he was a bookbinder, I understand.
Donald: It was his brother.
Interviewer: His brother, I see.
Donald: Yes, although it was known as Barlow Brothers. Series of bound volumes are still
around here, falling apart most of them.
Interviewer: Where did you go to school?
Donald: I went to Fountain Street School to begin with, which was where Central High School
is now.
�10
Interviewer: I see. That’s why they call Fountain School, Fountain School, I suppose. They built
Fountain School around the corner on College.
Interviewer: Yes, it is still.
Donald: They continue to call it Fountain Street School. Then by the time we got to sixth grade
we went to Central Grammar School, which comprised of seventh and eighth grades, yes.
Interviewer: Where was that located?
Donald: That was on the same grounds as the High School. The High School fronted on
Ransom. And the Central Grammar School which had been the earlier High School, I think, it
fronted on either Lyon or it fronted on Bostwick. So there were two buildings on that little
campus, as it were; the High School and the Central Grammar School. Earlier there had been the
old Stone school on that same location that my father and mother had both gone to.
Interviewer: And that was on Bostwick or on Ransom?
Donald: I think it occupied the grounds between them.
Interviewer: I see. Did you go to Central High School after Central Grammar School?
Donald: Then I went to Grand Rapids High School.
Interviewer: Where was that?
Donald: That was right there, that was the building that was just torn down in the last year.
Interviewer: Oh, yes.
Donald: It was not called Central because it was the only high school except the one on the west
side and that only went thru the eleventh grade. And in nineteen eleven the present Central High
School was built and assumed that name of Central High School. It was a continuation of the old
Grand Rapids High School, same faculty, same records.
Interviewer: You graduated from old Grand Rapids High School?
Donald: There was no such thing as Central High School then.
Interviewer: What year did you graduate?
Donald: Nineteen eight
Interviewer: Nineteen eight and you went directly there to Michigan.
Donald: No, I worked for a year in the furniture factory, in the Macey Furniture Factory, Macey
Furniture Company, made sectional bookcases.
�11
Interviewer: I remember that because I think my grandfather was the director of it or something.
Donald: Might well have been. It was headed by Otto Warneke.
Interviewer: Hmmm.
Donald: And it was quite a prosperous concern.
Interviewer: Where was it located?
Donald: On South Division, the building is still there, pretty well out South Division.
Interviewer: I wonder who is in the building now.
Donald: I think it is a storage building for somebody.
Interviewer: Steelcase or one…
Donald: Not Steelcase, who is…?
Interviewer: Your knowledge of South Division is as bad as mine.
Donald: I used to get up and ride the streetcar down there and get there at seven o’clock. I
remember that. And we worked ten hours a day plus an extra ten minutes. The extra ten minutes
were a credit that applied on Saturday so we could get away at noon on Saturday.
Interviewer: I see.
Donald: And still have our sixty hours for the week. Pay was a dollar an hour.
Interviewer: Was that pretty good pay?
Donald: It was pretty good for me.
Interviewer: Then you went to the University of Michigan from there.
Donald: After a year of that, I decided I better get an education and then went to the University
of Michigan.
Interviewer: What was your class there?
Donald: Class of nineteen thirteen.
Interviewer: Nineteen thirteen and you were married in nineteen seventeen you said.
Donald: Nineteen seventeen.
Interviewer: Was Mrs. Denison, your first wife from Grand Rapids?
�12
Donald: No indeed. She was from Hinsdale, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.
Interviewer: I see.
Donald: She had connections at White Lake where we had a summer cottage.
Interviewer: What was her maiden name?
Donald: Adeline Smith.
Interviewer: Adeline Smith. Now let me just take a look at these notes I made. After college
what did you do?
Donald: I got a job at the Ford Motor Company of Canada, in Walkerville right across from
Detroit and was there until practically, until the war.
Interviewer: Perhaps, I should have asked what did you major in at Michigan.
Donald: Literature, Science and the Arts, so called.
Interviewer: Did that?
Donald: They had no majors at that time, probably history.
Interviewer: I see.
Donald: I took a lot of history; there were no formal majors at that time.
Interviewer: The first job you took after college graduation was not in any way related to what
you studied at U of M?
Donald: That’s right.
Interviewer: And how long were you with Ford?
Donald: Three years.
Interviewer: Then you went into the service?
Donald: Then I went into the service.
Interviewer: Tell me about what you did, what rank you achieved and where you were and so
forth.
Donald: Well I went to first do is Training Camp at Fort Sheridan, received a commission as
First Lieutenant.
Interviewer: Then you went abroad?
�13
Donald: I never went abroad, Fort Sill Oklahoma the Artillery School, stayed there two years,
till the war was finished.
Interviewer: Then you returned to Grand Rapids?
Donald: In the meantime I was married. I was married just before going to Fort Sheridan. The
work down there was training, and firing practice on the firing ranges. I there got a captains
commission to the Ninth Artillery and we fired a lot of ammunition at no enemies. No, I didn’t
come back to Grand Rapids I came back to Detroit and got a job there with the National City
Company of New York, which was a (?) of the National City Bank of New York, selling bonds.
And there in and out of Municipal Bonds business for quite a few years.
Interviewer: Did you live in Detroit all those years?
Donald: I lived in Grosse Isle, just outside of Detroit twelve, thirteen years. Our children were
either born there or nearby, grew up there. Down the road from us a half- mile lived the Johnson
family, and Mrs. Johnson is upstairs here now.
Interviewer: So you met your second wife while you were living…
Donald: Oh, yes we were old friends; families were friends and neighbors for a dozen years.
Interviewer: And you were in and out of the bond business for a number of years?
Donald: I was in it…
Interviewer: How long did you stay in that business?
Donald: I stayed in that until the Second World War.
Interviewer: When did you return to Grand Rapids?
Donald: I returned to Grand Rapids in nineteen thirty-three, at the time of the bank failure.
Interviewer: Yes. Was that a pretty hard time for you?
Donald: That was a rather difficult time, yes.
Interviewer: As it was for a good many.
Donald: The job had shortly vanished. I was with the Guardian Company in Detroit which was
part of one of the banking groups that went down the precipice. [Union Guardian Trust Company
of Detroit]
Interviewer: Was that?
Donald: So I had no job for some time and no money, yes it was a difficult time.
�14
Interviewer: Was that Guardian Company in Detroit associated with the one in Cleveland?
Donald: No.
Interviewer: (?) Seems to me there was a group there…
Donald: At that time, having no job, I organized a company of my own, consisting of mostly
myself. And ventured into the municipal bond business for myself and was there for several
years and got along not too badly Then we moved back here.
Interviewer: Then you were in business downtown. Where were you located?
Donald: The Michigan Trust Building.
Interviewer: So your children received their education in Grand Rapids about that period?
Donald: Yes,
Interviewer: One of the things I know about you, because I have been there and known other
people that have summered there, for a great many years you have been going to White Lake,
north of Muskegon
Donald: My father had a cottage there and we have been going….
Interviewer: How long have you been going? When did your father first go there?
Donald: Went there in eighteen ninety-two. I was a year old when we went there.
Interviewer: Is that the cottage you had until recent years?
Donald: That is the cottage we had until recent years.
Interviewer: Were there already other people that had gone up there from Grand Rapids?
Donald: The Butterfields and the Taggerts
Interviewer: Did they go up before your father?
Donald: They both had gone up before that time, so.
Interviewer: Yes.
Donald: By the time, I went up there I remember three Grand Rapids lawyers living right in a
row, Mr. Wilson became the fourth.
Interviewer: Mr. Hugh Wilson?
Donald: No, Mr. Charles Wilson.
�15
Interviewer: Charles Wilson?
Donald: So at that time then that made four Grand Rapids lawyers in a row.
Interviewer: How did you spend your time up there at White Lake?
Donald: Digging in the garden and sailing.
Interviewer: And I think, you maintained your interest in sailing at least until recent years.
Donald: Yes, until recently.
Interviewer: Did the families commute back and forth, I mean did your father have to come back
to Grand Rapids or did he go up there and spend long periods of time? How did it work out?
Donald: All those lawyers commuted weekends.
Interviewer: Did they drive?
Donald: No, drive what?
Interviewer: Not automobiles. Not in the early nineties.
Donald: Didn’t drive automobiles.
Interviewer: Took trains I suppose.
Donald: The Butterfields had horses, and they use to transport their horses up there, or bring
them up there. The fathers would commute weekends by train to Whitehall and then boat down
the lake.
Interviewer: Yes.
Donald: And they would arrive either Friday night or Saturday night and leave very early
Monday morning and get back here the middle of the morning some time.
Interviewer: About what time of year would you open up your cottage up there?
Donald: When school closed.
Interviewer: I see.
Donald: Which was late in June.
Interviewer: And you must have known a lot of people up there over the years.
�16
Donald: There was a boarding house nearby called Partridges and many, many Grand Rapids
people use to go up there. Grand Rapids people that had cottages up there were, the Butterfields,
the Taggerts, the Wilsons, ourselves, the McNabbs, the Forbes’.
Interviewer: Quite a settlement.
Donald: Oh, yes.
Interviewer: and you don’t go to White Lake anymore, but you go nearby I understand.
Donald: Well, we go there, if I had a good strong arm, I could throw a stone into each lake.
Interviewer: There is a ridge between them.
Donald: Yes, there is a ridge in between.
Interviewer: I know that your family had some connection with the Congregational Church, at
one point with Park Church. Is that a family tradition that your family was Congregationalists
going way back, or…?
Donald: Yes, the grandparents, Denisons, were early members of that church. My family were;
the Barlows were very active in it.
Interviewer: I will just shut this off for a moment.
END of Side One
Interviewer: We will start again on this side and this time we’re going to talk about a letter you
received from a young man the other day and your reply. It involves football at the University of
Michigan. Why don’t you read parts of the letter you like to? This is your reply, I take it.
Donald: It is too long for this business, isn’t it?
Interviewer: No, it’s not too long. You can read as much or as little as you wish. Why don’t you
read, maybe you should start with his inquiry. You received this letter the other day you said.
Donald: Received this letter from a young man in Ann Arbor. He said for the past two years I
have been very interested in the history of football here at the U of M and someday I hope to
write a book. I was wondering if you can recall about your football days here. I believe you were
a reserve halfback in nineteen ten, eleven and twelve weighing one hundred and one and five feet
eleven tall. What were your teammates such as Benny Bender, Colin Quinn, Stan Wells, (?)
Conklin and others. Do any games or instance standout? What kind of coach was Yost? It might
interest you to know that as of nineteen seventy-two the alumni association numbers over one
hundred surviving members of your nineteen thirteen class.
Interviewer: Now, this is your reply.
�17
Donald: This is my reply: Dear Bob, Your letter was like a bombshell, imagine anyone knowing
or caring about the activities of a third string football player of sixty years ago. I didn’t know
whether to laugh or cry. Well, you deserve a good answer and I will try to give you something.
What kind of coach was Yost? He was a good one. He loved football and he taught us
personally. He didn’t sit in his office, if he had one, and direct his assistants. In fact, he only had
one or two and didn’t let them do much. And every practice scrimmage he was in the middle,
correcting and exhorting. He could whack a slowpoke on the back with a full swing and it was
no love pat. At this time, he was perhaps thirty-five years old, strong, lean and tough. To
demonstrate the use of hands on defense, he would grab one by the shoulder and toss them aside
like a leaf. He liked to demonstrate the way to catch the ball. He would put his left hand with
palm inward in front of his chest and say in his slightly southern drawl this hand says it can’t
bound on back, you know. And place his right hand palm up waist high and say this hand says it
can’t fall thru, you know. He was a Civil War buff and loved to compare war and football tactics.
As for General Lee holding the line, Jackson ran the end. He was ahead of his time about
vitamins. When the squad came into the training table, each place was set with a large salad and
you ate that before you got anything else. He didn’t like to lose anymore than Woody Hayes. In
the last game nineteen five, after five years of straight wins, Chicago took it two to nothing. Five
years later, Yost was still maintaining that the officials made a ghastly mistake and that it really
was a touchback and not a safety. Another famous game before my time which was in Chicago
was billed as a battle of ages between the two supermen, Heston of Michigan Eckersall of
Chicago. Eckersall ran faster but Heston ran harder and Michigan twenty-two- Chicago twelve.
At age thirteen, I went my parents by special train from Grand Rapids. My memory of the actual
game is a little vague, but a song of the Michigan rooters perhaps ten-thousand strong so tickled
me that I have never forgotten it. It ran “Eckersall, Eckersall, when you are running with the ball,
you could take an awful fall, Ecky Ecky Break your necky, Eckersall.”
Later in college I could sing that song, nobody else knew it.
Another game I remember well was a practice one, between the varsity and the reserves better
know as a scrubbish. I was backing up the line for the scrubbish and having great success in
sifting thru and tackling the varsity backs before they got started. My teammates all patted me on
the back and told me how good I was, and I thought so too, but Yost didn’t seem to notice. A few
days later I was having a beer with my good friend Tom Vogel, who was a regular and very good
varsity lineman and while discussing this incident, he asked me did Yost say anything to you? I
said no. Tom said, didn’t you know that I was letting you through. I thought you could do with a
little recognition. He fooled me but he didn’t fool Yost. Does that sound like anything?…
Interviewer: Yes, it sounds interesting. Was this, was George Thompson at Michigan at that
time? What was his class?
Donald: Yes, nineteen twelve.
�18
Interviewer: Only a year apart.
Donald: Yes.
Interviewer: Do you remember any of his football exploits? I guess he was considered one of
Michigan’s greats in those days.
Donald: I remember how hard he hit when you tried to tackle him.
Interviewer: Yes.
Donald: He was tough, didn’t try to tackle him many times. We used to play these semi
games….
Interviewer: We lost a little bit of the other side of the tape. And I want to go back to the story of
going to the Kent Country Club again. Just as if we hadn’t heard it before, will you try to repeat
it for me?
Donald: Alright. The other day I was asked how long I had been going to the Kent Country Club
and I recalled an early incident. In high school time perhaps nineteen six a high school fraternity
party was at Kent Country Club and I told my parents I had asked a girl. It was the first time I
had taken a girl anywhere to go to this party and I would have to have a cab because that is what
everyone else is having. It didn’t mean a taxicab like today, it meant a horse drawn vehicle. My
parents weren’t enthused about that. They said when they went to the same club as they
frequently did, they went by streetcar and they opinioned that I could go by streetcar. Julius
Amberg, a classmate, came to the rescue. His father had horses, and Julius and his girl and I and
my girl went in style in a closed carriage with a coachman driving.
Interviewer: Ordinarily you took the streetcar.
Donald: Ordinarily everyone took the streetcar.
Interviewer: Where did you board the streetcar and what…?
Donald: We boarded the streetcar on Lyon Street in front of our house, rode on it down to the
foot of Lyon at Monroe, Canal then. Took the Plainfield line out to Carrier Street and there
transferred to a little one-horse line that went from Carrier Street out the remaining few blocks
Kent.
Interviewer: Was that…
Donald: That car shuttled back and forth.
Interviewer: Was it an electrical line?
Donald: No, it was. Sure it was trolley cars, overhead trolley.
�19
Interviewer: Yes, that went right to Kent Country Club?
Donald: It shuttled between Plainfield and Kent Country Club, Plainfield Avenue just beyond
Leonard.
Interviewer: And you are still going out to the Kent Country Club, but not by streetcar anymore.
I take it you spend a little time there when you’re in Grand Rapids.
Donald: I go most every day and hit some practice balls if nothing else. I’m still hoping to
improve my swing.
Interviewer: You may!
Donald: I may!
Interviewer: Is there some tournament coming up in the near future? I thought I heard your wife
speak that you are getting ready for some big event.
Donald: I have a friend in Detroit that is an excellent golfer and he would like to come over here
and play in a … I’ve forgotten what they call it; visitor’s tournament of some kind. That’s not the
actual….
Interviewer: I see.
Donald: That’s not the actual…
Interviewer: Sure, I know what you mean, but I don’t know the name either. I’m not a golfer ….
Donald: I’m practicing up so I don’t disgrace him too badly.
Interviewer: That’s good, now you have lived on in this neighborhood Lyon Street in this house
a great deal of your life. I am interested in getting you thinking about the changes that have
occurred and you mentioned that you thought there was quite a little continuity as far as this
particular part of the city if concerned.
Donald: As far as this block and street, all of the houses have stayed the same. Most of them
have been divided into a varying number of apartments.
Interviewer: Who lived on either side of you?
Donald: My early recollection, names leave me….
Interviewer: That’s not too important now. Just name some other families that lived in this
block….
Donald: Alright, the Sears family lived in this building, the two Sears brothers and one across
the street in what was later the Stewart house.
�20
Interviewer: Steketees must have lived….
Donald: Steketees lived on the corner.
Interviewer: I seem to recall Charlie Campbell lived…
Donald: Charlie Campbell lived in the Steketee house after it was made into the apartments
much later.
Interviewer: Didn’t they live in the little house?
Donald: The Campbells lived in three houses around here, the old Steketee house, the little
house, and in an apartment down the street. I think they lived in the Steketee house when Charlie
died.
Interviewer: I think that is true. Has the neighborhood changed a great deal, do you think?
Donald: Well, it’s held surprisingly well, so I suppose it changes because it is all apartments.
Donald: The houses are externally unchanged.
Interviewer: Go back to that house on Lyon Street where you were born. About when was that
house built?
Donald: I can almost plot it probably there, because I think that it was new when my father and
mother were married and moved in to it, and that was Eighty-six, that’s about when it was built.
Mr. Henry Idema built it on the vacant lot across the street. He lived on the other side of the
street for speculation or investment perhaps, and sold it to my father when it was new.
Interviewer: Well, it is still standing.
Donald: It is still standing and with the Idema house across the street, it is one of most
respectable ones there.
Interviewer: And you had two brothers you mentioned.
Donald: A younger brother and an older brother.
Interviewer: And who was the older brother?
Donald: That was John, some four years older than I, went to Chicago and spent his life in a
bank there. Younger brother Arthur disappeared from a ship at sea.
Interviewer: Really.
Donald: At about thirty years of age.
�21
Interviewer: I hate to ask this question, but what year were you born?
Donald: Eighteen ninety-one.
Interviewer: I could have reconstructed that, I guess.
Donald: You could figure that one out?
Interviewer: You’re in your middle eighties at this point.
Donald: Middle aged, let’s say.
Interviewer: Middle-aged.
Donald: That’s better. Very lucky physically, as well as I ever was.
Interviewer: That’s great. I think this has been a delightful interview, I might say that for the
benefit for whoever listens to this someday. I came completely unprepared and discovered I
didn’t have the little adapter to go on the plug, so Mr. Denison had the bright idea of just driving
up the street and picking one up, which we did and we finally got the thing going. I must say, I
didn’t even know we had a little electrical store a few blocks away that would have such an item,
so with that I’ll turn it off and you can get ready to go to the Kent Country Club if that’s where
you are going next.
INDEX
A
Amberg, Julius · 19
B
Denison, Arthur Carter (Father) · 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, 16,
19, 21
Denison, Cornelia Carter (Grandmother) · 5
Denison, Julius Coe (Grandfather) · 1, 3, 4, 5, 11
Dykema Family · 9
F
Baker, Milton D. · 7, 8
Barlow Family · 9, 10, 17
Butterfield Family · 15, 16
Ford Motor Company · 12
Fountain Street School · 10
C
G
Campbell Family · 21
Central Grammar School · 10
Congregational Church · 17
Grand Rapids High School · 11
D
Idema Family · 9
Denison, Adeline Smith (1st Wife) · 1, 5, 12
I
�22
J
T
Johnson Family · 6, 14
Taggert, Edward · 6
Taggert, Moses · 6
Thompson, George · 18
K
Kent Country Club · 5, 19, 20, 22
U
M
Union Guardian Trust Company of Detroit · 14
University of Michigan · 6, 12, 17
Macey Furniture Factory · 11
N
National City Company of New York · 13
S
Sears Family · 20
Sligh, Charles · 8
Steketee Family · 20
W
Wanty, Judge · 6
Warneke, Otto · 11
White Lake · 12, 15, 16
Whitman Family · 9
Wilson, Charles (Great-Uncle) · 6, 15
Y
Yost, Bob · 17, 18
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/978ab47bd2d42adf7a9c785273e8a700.mp3
d370388d6f30ad9249010349122827b6
Dublin Core
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Title
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
Creator
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Various
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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eng
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RHC-23
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1971 - 1977
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RHC-23_50Denison
Title
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Denison, Donald
Creator
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Denison, Donald
Description
An account of the resource
Donald Denison was born in Grand Rapids, graduated from the University of Michigan ca. 1913, and served in WWI. His father was a judge who was appointed by President Taft in 1911 to the U.S. District Court of Appeals. Mr. Denison's father resigned as a judge in 1931 to enter private practice with the firm of Newton Baker, President Wilson's Secretary of War. Mr. Denison sold bonds through National City and his own company. He died August 21, 1983.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Language
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eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Text
Sound
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application/pdf
audio/mp3
Source
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Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
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1975
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ff324ff20bdecd158c6524e9e6dd6cd.pdf
de88fc3eefc4d3aa6de2a21f05fde250
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mr. Charles MacLear Kindel
Interviewed on March 13, 1975
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape #49 (52:27)
Biographical Information
Charles MacLear Kindel, known as “Chuck” was born in Denver City, Colorado on 29 March
1899, the son of Charles J. Kindel and Jessie M. MacLear. He died in Grand Rapids on 10
September 1982. It was on 8 November 1924 that he married Katrina C. van Asmus probably in
Illinois.
The father, Charles Joseph Kindel was born in Cincinnati, Ohio on 13 June 1872. He was the son
of Gabriel Kindl and Marianna Herkommer. Charles J. married Jessie Matilda MacLear on 8
June 1898 in Denver City. Jessie, born in St. Catherine’s, Ontario on 27 August 1876, was the
daughter of Thomas MacLear and Mary E. Reynolds. The father, Charles died in Grand Rapids
on 28 July 1962, and Jessie died on 19 July 1956 in East Grand Rapids.
___________
Interviewer: I’m at the residence of Mr. Charles Kindel, 1900 San Lu Rae; it’s Thursday, March
13th, 1975. Mr. Kindel, recently in the local newspaper I read that you had gone to Washington
and that many years ago you were President Ford’s Scoutmaster, and you started to tell me about
coming here and that you’d been in scouting before.
Kindel: We came to Grand Rapids in nineteen thirteen from Wilmette, Illinois and I was a scout
over there when I became twelve. And when we came to Grand Rapids I was a First Class
Scout. Scouting was just starting in Grand Rapids, and I joined Troop One at Sigsbee School and
worked at the boys scout camps in the summer time and I became the first Eagle Scout in Grand
Rapids. Then after I returned from England, where I was production manager in an English
furniture factory I got married, and had a boy on the way and I felt that I should return some of
the service that adults had given me. As you know an adult gives a lot of service to the scout
movement. So I became the Scoutmaster at Troop Fifteen which was at the Trinity Methodist
Church on Lake Drive. And Jerry Ford, who was called Junior Ford at the time, joined the troop,
and naturally he seemed to have the ability to make friends and was of course, very athletic,
[and] very well liked.
Interviewer: What year was that?
Kindel: That was in the year of nineteen twenty-five. I had the troop for one year, and then they
made me commissioner of the district of scouting which comprised of eight troops which I kind
of oversaw with the help of the troop committees and the various troops. And as you can imagine
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a troop is only as good as its scout master, and a good troop committee gets a good Scoutmaster.
So my brother then took the troop over for a year. Jerry became an Eagle Scout in nineteen
twenty-seven, and luckily he was appointed by Governor Green to be one of the Eagle Scouts to
act as a color guard at Mackinac Island.
Interviewer: How old was he about then?
Kindel: And he must have been fifteen or sixteen. Then when the Boy Scout national
headquarters looked up Jerry Ford’s records they found that I was his first Scoutmaster and they
felt that for the annual meeting of scouting in Washington where they were holding a oratorical
contest from boys all over the United States, which was sponsored by the Reader’s Digest, they
had semifinals in Washington the night before I got there, and there were just the two boys left in
each category that the C Scouts the Boy Scouts and the Explorer Scouts. Well then, I was
flattered because I was introduced as the President’s Scoutmaster by everybody in Washington
that I met connected with the Boy Scout movement. The next day I was told to meet the head
that was handling the expedition to the White House to be at the front door of the hotel at eleven
o’clock. And as we boarded the bus; the boys were all in the bus, about twelve - fourteen Eagle
Scouts the man who was handling this as I entered the bus he said to the boys, “This was the
President’s Scoutmaster.”
Well they gave me a big hand as you can imagine, some of these scouts came to me and said “I
just want to shake the hand of the Presidents Scoutmaster,” which I got a kick out of naturally.
Then we went to the White House.
Interviewer: When was this exactly?
Kindel: That was on Tuesday the twenty-fifth, of February.
Interviewer: February.
Kindel: And, we went to the White House and were ushered into the Teddy Roosevelt room in
which I’d never been in. It had a big picture of Teddy Roosevelt and his Charger, the Rough
Rider. It was a lovely conference room with lovely furniture of course. Then we went in to see
the President and the minute I walked in, because I headed the procession more or less, Jerry
spoke right up and said, “Well there’s Chuck Kindel,” and we shook hands. The boys were welltrained, cause they went up to the president and said, “Mr. President, it’s nice to see you, my
name is so and so from Houston, Texas” or wherever they came from. Jerry was just himself, he,
no pomp and ceremony. We presented him with the collage, which was a painting that was done
by an artist in New Jersey, depicting some of the activities that Jerry took part in as a scout. And
then as we, he of course was very nice and responded and remembered some of the boys that
were in the troop with him, as a matter of fact he mentioned two of the boys, Engle B and Engle
A were twins, who were both admirals in the Coast Guard.
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Interviewer: What were the last names?
Kindel: Engle, E-N-G-L-E. I lost track of those boys, but they tell that Engle, one of the Engles
is head of the Coast Guard now and the other one’s retired.
Interviewer: I wonder if they’re any relation to Engle Whinery.
Kindel: No relation to Engle Whinery that I could find. I tried to find out more about the family,
the Engles. I did talk to several of the boys that were in the troop with us. Most of them had done
pretty well, Jerry reminded me of these different boys and I was amazed that he remembered
their names, because I was thinking back at some of the boys who were in my troop early, and I
don’t remember many of those names, that’s so long ago; you want to remember this was fifty
years ago.
Interviewer: Can you remember some of the people some of the boys that were in Jerry’s troop?
Kindel: Oh yes, there was Richard Cassidy; his father had a drugstore on Lake Drive and
Robinson Road. And then there was Ed Perch who was a tool maker. Well I looked up quite a
few of Wiersmas; there were three Wiersma brothers that were in the troop the same time. And
of course a Behler, Gerald Behler, he was the chairman of the troop committee, the BehlerYoung company, and his boy was in the troop, too. He’s out in Colorado now I found out. Some
of the boys are scattered around the United States. But, Jerry seemed to remember that really
amazed me to see that he would remember so much of it. He talked about it to the other boys,
who were there how we handled scouting in those days. And of course, the troop committee is
the most important part. The church has done a wonderful job in getting good troop committees.
It’s the men’s club activities for the Trinity Church and Roger Chaffee who was the Astronaut
that died in the accident at the in the missile, was an Eagle Scout from the same troop. At the
conclusion of the presentation, we all filed out. I happened to be at the tail end of it, because I
had been the first one in. As we were going out, Jerry said, “Chuck wait just a minute, stay here
will you,” so we were alone in the oval room together and he asked about our family, because
he’s a friend of Ted and Nancy’s out in Vail, and I told him how much Ted’s kids appreciated
the gold brackets that he gave them for Christmas. Then he pulled out of his pocket a pen with
the Presidential seal on it and he said, “I’d like to have you give this to Katrina.” And then out of
another pocket he brought out another box, and in it was a pair of cuff links with the Presidential
seal on it for me, which of course I’ll appreciate. Then we said goodbye, we got back into the
bus, went back to the big luncheon that was being held at this oratorical contest. And although I
don’t like publicity, and being the front, I was a presented as being the President’s Scoutmaster
which of course, pleased me but it was quite a crowd there. I had a lot of people come up to me
and ask me if I would just shake their hand because I was the President’s Scoutmaster.
Interviewer: Let’s go back to the beginning of your life, and ask some questions about where you
were born, and sort of vital statistics, of that sort if I could. And then why don’t you take this up
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to as far as you’re coming to Grand Rapids, and tell us about your father and the first furniture
business he had here. Go back and start from the beginning.
Kindel: I was born in Denver Colorado, because my father had a bedding and upholstery
business in Denver. But in, he took the attitude that Denver would never be anything but a health
resort. And so he decided when the World’s Fair was in, to be in 1904 in St. Louis, he sold his
business and moved to St. Louis because he felt that the incoming people to see the World’s Fair
would be good for the bedding and upholstery business. So while he was in St. Louis he invented
the sofa bed, which incidentally all the sofa beds made today are on his original patents which he
held, but of course they run out many years ago. We stayed in St. Louis, then that business grew,
the sofa bed business and we went to New York, and he established a factory in New York City.
We stayed in New York about two years. Then we went up and built a plant in Toronto, Canada
for the Canadian Trade; which incidentally, was the most profitable of all of them from the
dollars and cents stand point. Then we moved to Chicago, because he had to build another
factory in Chicago for the Middle-West trade.
Interviewer: What year would that have been?
Kindel: That was in nineteen hundred and ten. Then the business was expanding so fast, and they
were putting wood ends or arms on the sofa beds at that time, and he came to Grand Rapids
because of the woodworkers in Grand Rapids. As you know Grand Rapids then was probably the
best known for the woodworkers than any place in the country. He had many offers to go to
other cities, but Grand Rapids seemed to be the most desirable from the woodworkers standpoint.
But yet the city of Grand Rapids at that time didn’t want him to come to Grand Rapids. They
were trying to keep industry out of Grand Rapids it seemed. And he bought the lot on, between
Division and Jefferson on Garden Street. And the city did not cooperate in any way with him; as
a matter of fact, there were three streets projected in the plot, they even charged my father for
that land when the street were closed up cause they dead ended into railroad tracks. Then he had
to have a water main come up from Division Street for high pressure sprinkler protection, and
they did not do that, he had to pay for that.
Interviewer: Why didn’t they want him to come, what was the reason?
Kindel: Well, there was quite a clique in the woodworking games at that time, there were a great
many furniture factories of course. And they, back there as I understand it they just didn’t want
any industry to come into Grand Rapids because they were jealous of the establishment that they
had made. As you know, in nineteen eleven they had a rather severe woodworker’s strike which
was difficult to break, and they were afraid that industry coming in here. My father came in spite
of that; and in nineteen hundred and fifteen, because Kroehler, the noted upholsterer, was
building a sofa bed and infringing on my father’s patents. And although Peter Kroehler was
friend of my father’s because my father had been president of the Upholsterers Association, and
he told, as he said, told us he said to Pete Kroehler. One day he said, “Pete you and I are going to
�5
go to the mat because you know that you’re infringing my patents and as soon as I get
straightened around we’re going to take and have a suit.” And Pete Kroehler said, “No we’re not
going to have a suit Charlie, I’ll buy you out.” And my father said, “Pete you can’t afford to buy
me out,” and Pete Kroehler said, “Well, you name a price.” My father named a price and that
was the final sale. So my father sold out and retired at the age of forty-two. And for ten years he
agreed to stay out of the bed business.
Interviewer: Was he in any other form of furniture business?
Kindel: No, he couldn’t go into any furniture business for ten years.
Interviewer: When did he resume?
Kindel: Then in nine years and nine months the Foote-Reynolds company was available
because…
Interviewer: When was that?
Kindel: In nineteen hundred and twenty four. On January tenth, nineteen twenty-four, Seal
Reynolds, who was running the Foote-Reynolds plant died. Mrs. Reynolds was trying to carry on
with the business, but she had enormous losses. And when I came back from England then I was
to go to work for Kroehler in California, but Mrs. Reynolds wanted to sell the plant. My father
[brought in] fact both my brother and myself in the business. Then we bought the original plant
that he’d had built here in nineteen thirteen.
Interviewer: Did that Foote-Reynolds business have any direct relationship with Mr. Stuart
Foote?
Kindel: Yes. Stuart Foote of course was a brother in law; and Clare Dexter was a brother-in-law.
And Clare Dexter and Foote and Reynolds they bought this factory, and they made four poster
beds.
Interviewer: But they were also in the business? Besides Mr. Reynolds.
Kindel: Well, they financially they were. Stuart Foote you know had the Imperial Furniture
Company and then he backed his son Vernon Foote in what they called the Stuart Furniture
Company, which is now the Oliver Machinery Company plant on the west side.
Interviewer: What was Mr. Dexter’s business?
Kindel: He was the President of the Grand Rapids Chair Company, and that was the original
Foote family business, the Grand Rapids Chair Company. Then Stuart Foote broke away from
that and built the Imperial Furniture Company, to make tables. And of course, it was much more
successful than the Grand Rapids Chair Company.
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Interviewer: Now let’s go back, to where your father started up here in about nineteen twentyfour. What kind of furniture did he manufacture?
Kindel: Well we went on making the four poster beds for some time and then we made a
convertible day bed. But before, I must go back here Lee, my father’s contract with Kroehler was
that he would stay out of business for ten years, and we bought this plant in nine years and nine
months. My father called Pete Kroehler and told him what he was doing and that he wouldn’t
buy the plant for us if he would violate that agreement. Pete Kroehler said, “Go ahead Charlie,
buy it,” that’s the way it worked. And we went on and made day beds that would convert from a
day bed to a double day bed. And then in nineteen twenty-nine, we started to make our own case
goods, that is the dressers, the chests to go with our four poster beds, and then we expanded into
making just bedroom suites.
Interviewer: Now the term case goods is, of course, a well known furniture term, but for people
who don’t know anything about furniture, can you give us an approximate, a good idea of what
that term means?
Kindel: Case goods means, a piece of furniture with drawers in it.
Interviewer: I see.
Kindel: Sometimes we take with liquor cases.
Interviewer: Was that included, the bed set, the complete bedroom suite?
Kindel: The complete bedroom suite, with night stands, a chiffoniers, chests, dressers, and even
the long cheval mirrors. Well then about nineteen fifty, we went into making… we added to our
line and made dining room furniture; and we made mahogany exclusively, till about nineteen
fifty-five when we felt that the mahogany craze was to be substituted by using lighter furniture
like, so we in to make cherry. So we made cherry exclusively up until nineteen sixty-six when
we sold the business to the Ball brothers of Muncie, Indiana. Of course, my father died in sixtythree and he was never really active in the management of the business. He always told us, my
brother and I, “make your mistakes while I’m living, don’t make them after I’m gone.” Which
was, he let us have all the rope we wanted; it was a great association.
Interviewer: He lived to a rather advanced age.
Kindel: He was ninety-one.
Interviewer: Where was he born?
Kindel: He was born in Cincinnati, Ohio, of German parentage.
Interviewer: You mean Kindel is a German name.
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Kindel: It’s a German name, unusual spelling because the immigration officer made the mistake
when he came into this country at Ellis Island; he spelled the name Kindel, where the original
German was Kindl. That’s the same name, so there are very few Kindel’s in this country, that
you’d run across.
Interviewer: Well now, Mr. Kindel I’m not quite old enough to remember the Depression too
well but I am certainly aware of the, that the Kindel Furniture Company continued to
manufacture furniture at least during most of that period, and right up until its sale and even
thereafter, and apparently was very well established firm and didn’t seem to encounter all the
troubles that some of our, many of our furniture companies did and certainly didn’t go out of
business as some of them did. To what do you attribute this success of Kindel Furniture
Company?
Kindel: Well, we were a profitable business and when the Depression came along, luckily we
were always trained to take and put anything away that you possibly can. So we started in the
Depression with a pretty well capitalized business, because we had been always told that more
businesses fail for lack of capital than anything else, and so we did everything to preserve our
capital. And another thing, we were told never to let a bill go by, always get the discount, which
we did. And so when the depression came along we really modernized; we replaced a great deal
of our machinery. Of course I was the factory man, and my brother was the sales end of the
business. And we practically replaced a great deal of the machinery for higher speed ball-bearing
equipment, and we took business just to keep going. Luckily we had enough capital that we
could afford to do it. I don’t think any furniture factory worked more consistently, as we did, we
never worked less than four days a week, and we never had a lay-off. So, that we kept pretty
good industrial relations with our help. And we were never unionized, because our boys claimed
they were getting benefits that the union shops weren’t even getting; so that we had very good
industrial relations, as a matter of fact. I just had a girl call me last night that worked for us for
twenty-five years; she’s up in, living in a small town in the north up near Cadillac. She just
called me to see how I was. And she say, “You know Chuck, we never had a layoff in all the
twenty-five years I worked for you, and you were probably the best boss a guy could have.” Well
it made me feel good, naturally. We still have an association with…, I see a great many of our
men who worked for us for so many years.
Interviewer: How many people did your company employ?
Kindel: Well during the war, when we were building aircrafts we got up to three hundred and
sixty employees, but I’ll say we averaged around two hundred employees as a rule.
Interviewer: Now when I was here interviewing Mrs. Kindel two or three weeks ago, time goes
so fast, you started that week to talk a little bit about your role during World War Two, and some
of the things you did at time. Why don’t you talk about those things right now?
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Kindel: Well when World War Two came along; it appeared that there would be very little for
the furniture companies to do, because it was so different than any other war, material that was
being purchased. We came on the idea that we could build parts for aircraft made of wood. I was
president of the local Grand Rapids Furniture Manufacturer’s Association at the time, and we
called a meeting of the members of the association and we formed a corporation of fifteen of the
leading furniture factories. We all put in ten thousand dollars apiece, and with that capital we
went scrounging around for business. And luckily when I was at the University of Michigan, in
engineering school, I had taken a couple of courses in Aeronautics because it was a hobby with
me. That more or less gave me enough nerve to think I knew something about aircraft. As you
know [with] an aircrafts you’re fighting weight all the time. And I went out to Fairchild
[Aviation Corporation] in Hagerstown, Maryland, and also to Cessna Aircraft and Beech Aircraft
in Wichita. Cessna Aircraft got an order for a thousand gliders. That was the CG-4A glider that
would carry fifteen men and a howitzer or a jeep. It was a big job and I got an order for a
thousand sets of wings. And we came back and started to go through all the blueprints, and you
can imagine what it meant to go through a bunch of blueprints in the lot for various factories and
the different parts to make. Some of the smaller plants, they made small parts. The Widdicomb
Furniture Company, they made the spars, the front spar, which is a rather big chunk of wood.
And then the Kindel plant made the rear spars. Then we made the ribs, which were all laminated
with plywood and spruce. They, different parts were sent to different assembly plants and then
the final assembly was at the Imperial Furniture Company, where these big wings, which were
twenty-five… over all the width of the airplane, the width was eighty-five feet. But the longest
wing section was twenty-five feet and then there was a shorter one which was about sixteen or
seventeen feet long that went on to make the wings of this glider. We ended up making forty-five
hundred sets of wings for the glider and we made them for eight of the prime contractors who
were building these gliders. And Gibson [Manufacturing] of Greenville [Michigan] was one of
these companies, Timm Aircraft of California, the Robertson Aircraft Company in St. Louis,
General Aircraft down in the east part of Massachusetts, the Babcock Airplane Company down
in Florida, we made their wings for them, and shipped them out of here in great big boxes. The
Nicholson-Cox Lumber Company was a member of the firm; they built the… all they did was
build boxes to hold these wings. And they were assembled and finished at the Imperial Furniture
Company and then boxed there. Then we also had the order for the Stinson L-5 Liaison plane,
which we made about four thousand of those, sets of wings for that. And we made every piece of
the wood that went in the airplane, that was the emponze(?) of the tail services, even the map
cases. We made map cases for the B-29’s; we made parts for the navy. [We] Even made ships
wheels, steering wheels. We made numerous parts for other aircraft companies, like ribs, we
made the spars for the Taylor Aircraft Company as well as Piper Aircraft. Anything with wood
we were specialists in and we did an outstanding job, because our woodworkers were so good
here. Then after, when the war ended we had to liquidate it and at that time we were in pretty
good cash position, we discussed whether or not we should take and build a dimension plant, that
would bring the lumber in and dry it, and cut into small pieces for the different factories, but
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because we had a bunch of rugged individualists it seemed as though that wasn’t practical
because they took the attitude well, you’ll do it for this but you won’t do it for me, and so that
never matured so we liquidated it.
Interviewer: How many manufacturers were involved in this operation?
Kindel: Fifteen factories.
Interviewer: There were fifteen factories. Because there were fifteen who put up ten thousand
and they all stayed in it?
Kindel: Fifteen factories, even little Willie May Burke Company was one of them.
Interviewer: I see.
Kindel: Bower Furniture Company, William-Kimp Furniture Company, there was both
Widdicombes, Mueller Furniture Company, Valley City Desk Company, and of course Kindel
had a part in it too. And I was in charge of all production for the plant because that’s the part I
like in the furniture business.
Interviewer: I was interested in your using the term rugged individualists, describe some of these
people some these men in the firm industry at that time, now you had an association with the
furniture industry in Grand Rapids for fifty years or there abouts. Who are some of the men you
remember best over that period of years who were you might call them giants in this industry in
Grand Rapids?
Kindel: Well we didn’t have any real giants; Robert W. Irwin probably was one of the most
rugged individuals of the lot, and Stuart Foote, of the Imperial Furniture Company and Clare
Dexter of the Grand Rapids Chair Company. They were the rugged individualists I would say
that wanted to go their own way, and were jealous of anything anybody else did.
Interviewer: Now we all know that much of the furniture industry has left Grand Rapids, the
companies have either gone out of business or they’ve moved out east, what do you think is the
chief reason we have lost so much of total industry to other places?
Kindel: Well Lee, I, liken the furniture business to the woolen industry of New England, and the
weaver’s in New England, as you know they moved south because of the cheap labor. Grand
Rapids I think lost a great deal of their business because the labor rates in the south were so
much less, as a matter of fact over the years we used to make surveys and the furniture trades
wages were probably forty percent less than the Grand Rapids wages. Grand Rapids of course is
noted for its quality and I think that the only survival of the business in Grand Rapids would be
only in quality furniture; because we, with our skilled help we can make quality, down in the
south they can make quantity. But they just don’t put the quality in that made up here. So people
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buy Grand Rapids furniture in the most part they are getting their money’s worth, for that’ll be
the antique’s of the future.
Interviewer: That’s a good way to sum it up. I thought we’d go back and talk about some of the
early years when you first came to Grand Rapids; you just mentioned that you built your first car
in nineteen twelve.
Kindel: Well it was a one cylinder on a car with a twenty-four inch wheel tread and a seventytwo inch wheel base. I remember it so distinctly and my father bought me a second hand
motorcycle engine for fifteen dollars and we built that into a car and I learned an awful lot
building that car, and I still got the drawing on it. Because my father wouldn’t buy the engine
until I made an inked in drawing, and he taught me very early to make a drawing before you start
any project. And we moved to Grand Rapids and I still run into people who say they remember
the car that I used to drive around here. A little one cylinder putter, but I had a lot of fun doing
that I’ve always been a car nut over since. I’ve had all kinds of them and only wish I had some of
the old ones now because they’d be classics. But I worked in the machine room, in the tool room
as working on milling machines, and shapers and blades between summers because I just loved
that kind of stuff. I graduated from Central High school, went on to engineering school in Ann
Arbor, and took some automotive courses as well as aviation courses, because it’s my hobby;
and then I learned to fly in nineteen hundred and twenty-seven. As a matter of fact I was the first
one up to Lindbergh’s plane when he came in here on his tour of May nineteen twenty-seven,
because I just a well I’ll admit I’m a screwball. I learned to fly and of course I had a plane, a nice
little Stinson plane that I flew for about six years. They say you have to be a little bit crazy. My
Father used to say, “It helps.”
Interviewer: Where did your family live when you were younger?
Kindel: Well we lived at twelve twenty-five Lake Drive which is now the Jonkhoff Funeral
Home.
Interviewer: That was quite a ways out.
Kindel: Yes it was a long way to Central High School, but it didn’t bother me because being a
car nut I had a car all the time, a model-T Ford, all the time I was in high school. I remember
your mother in school whenever the piano had to be played she was it.
Interviewer: Go back to that house the Jonkhoff Funeral Home. Your father built that?
Kindel: No, that was built by Orin Starr, Starr was the name and he was as I understand it he was
the one who built the Majestic theatre.
Interviewer: How do you spell his last name?
Kindel: I think it was Starr, if I remember right.
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Interviewer: It was pronounced stair?
Kindel: Stair, and then when we all went away to school my father and mother thought the house
was too much of a care and they built this house at seven thirty Plymouth; it was the second
house on the block.
Interviewer: Who lives there today?
Kindel: I don’t know that’s house, my father sold it after my mother’s death to the manager of
the Detroit Ball-Bearing Company and then his father who was the organizer to the Detroit Ball,
then his father dies and he moved to Detroit, and it was sold to somebody with the telephone
company and I’m not sure of their last names either. My father used to say his house isn’t the
best; it’s next to the best house, when he talked to Mr. Fitzgerald, who built the house on
Plymouth and San Lu Rae.
Interviewer: I remember when that house was built, because when the Fitzgeralds lived in the
house where we live and they rented it from the Perkins for I don’t know how many months, I
remember we moved in November of nineteen twenty-eight, and so by that time Mr. and Mrs.
Fitzgerald must have finished that house.
Kindel: Yes, Owen Ames Kimball built that house and they moved from my father’s house over
to the Fitzgerald house. Owen Ames Kimball built also the Blodgett house. That was previous to
my father’s house.
Interviewer: I sort of recall my father bringing me out here as just a little boy to see that house
under construction, so it must have been something to behold.
Kindel: Well, it was beautifully constructed, it’s a beautiful home. So my father used to say I
don’t have the best house, I live next to the best house.
Interviewer: Where did you and Mrs. Kindel live when you were first married?
Kindel: Well when we were first married we married in nineteen twenty-four, and we lived at
three thirty-three Briarwood, which was called the brides street at that time, because Chuck Sligh
built a house across from me, one of the Keeneys lived there, next door to us, and Clifford
Nelson was down the block, and Chucky and Don Steketee also lived on that block. We had a
very nice house, and we lived there until nineteen twenty-eight, when we moved over on
Cambridge, at four thirty-one Cambridge. We lived there twenty-two years, and then we built
this house in nineteen forty-eight.
Interviewer: This is a beautiful house. Did you design this house?
Kindel: I hate to say I designed it, I laid out the floor plans we wanted, and Ralph Demmon who
did this type of architecture we felt the best, we looked over the different architects work. We
felt he did this type of house best. I would have liked to have had it all stone but Ralph Demmon
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talked us out that, he said it was too expensive, and those types of masons are gone. So we only
had the front of the house in this Pennsylvania stone. We always like the Pennsylvania type of
houses when we’d drive though Pennsylvania and said that’s what we want. And we laid out the
house really what we wanted having Ralph Demmon do the real architecture work, because I do
know a lot of drafting I’m no architect.
Interviewer: Did you previously plan the woodwork?
Kindel: Well a lot of this woodwork was made in our plant; all of the woodwork really was done
in our plant, like the pine paneling that we have all of the casing moldings, they’re all special.
Interviewer: Is there a good deal of Kindel furniture in this house?
Kindel: Everything that we could get in that Kindel made is here. Although we have quite a bit
of Baker and the rest of the furniture is really Baker. I’ve always said this in my estimation,
maybe I’m wrong but Hollis Baker probably was the greatest furniture man in our first half
century. He was a real connoisseur.
Interviewer: He knew a great deal about furniture and I think he could sell it too.
Kindel: Oh, he was a marvelous salesman. But he could take he was discriminating, he knew
what was nice. For instance, that octagon table there, you know there’s one out at the club like
that and there’s a table over there which House Beautiful said was one of the real classics, that
little table right there.
Interviewer: That’s a beautiful table. He was a very interesting man; he’s one of the most
interesting people I ever knew.
Kindel: Well he, we enjoyed him very much and as you know the Huntings, the Bakers and
Kindels all bought the Exhibitors Building.
Interviewer: That’s right. Why don’t you tell us about that, I’d forgotten that?
Kindel: As you know that was the original Fine Arts Building built by Gus Hendricks. And
during the war, he had financial troubles, and the city took it over. Then during the war the
weather school took that building over for training meteorologists. And the building was in
pretty bad disrepair in nineteen forty-five or six, and we got together and bought it from the city,
the three of us. And we reconditioned it and we put a hundred and ten thousand dollars in before
anybody moved in to it.
[End of Side 1]
Interviewer: We’re talking about the, what we call the Fine Arts Building across from the Civic
Auditorium, and you’ve come to the point where you’d purchased it, and what year was that?
�13
Kindel: The latter part of nineteen forty-five we bought the building from the city, because it
reverted to them for taxes. And we had Ken Welch do a great deal of the architectural changes
that we made in the building and of course, because of its being in despair there was a great deal
of plastering to be done, and remodeling the building. And luckily, we were all in the furniture
business, we had three spaces rented immediately, because Dave Hunting moved the Steelcase
line into the Exhibitor’s Building, and Baker Furniture Company took the second floor, and
Kindel Furniture took half of the third floor, and Widdicombe took the back half of the third
floor. We brought in come outside exhibitors and it was a success from the start. The furniture
market faded out, and Baker Furniture used it as a show room so did John Widdicomb Company,
and several other furniture people that used it more as a place where a decorator could take his
customers or clients as they call them, and to select furniture. Knapp and Tubbs took over part of
the building and then we rented a half of a floor to Aves Advertising Company, another half to
the Court of Appeals, which was awaiting the building of the State Building. And of course we
had to put in a lot of air conditioning. And we went along very well until Hollis Baker sold the
Baker Furniture Company – [I’m] talking about Hollis junior. He decided that some of his wealth
should be put in to real estate, and he bought the Kindels and Huntings out. So it’s now wholly
owned by Hollis Baker.
Interviewer: I want to go back into Grand Rapids furniture history for a minute because I’m sure
you could shed some light on some of the famous names of furniture. I’m not talking about
individuals as much as I am about companies at this point. Of course one of the names that
constantly comes up when you’re talking to people about furniture is Berkey and Gay. Now that
company I believe is no longer in existence, but you must remember when it was. And could you
tell us about the company and what sort of happened to it?
Kindel: Well that’s an interesting saga of course. When I came out of the university my first job
in the furniture business, because my father had retired, was at Berkey and Gay Furniture
Company, and as you know they had five plants. And if I remember they had about twenty-four
hundred employees. It was a big company, of course Bill Gay had died, and the plant was taken
over by the three Wallace brothers. They were all salesman, none of them were mechanics.
Interviewer: So that was Oliver Wallace and Edward Wallace…?
Kindel: No, that was, in the same family, but Ed Wallace and Oliver Wallace were still in school
It’s a generation back. And these Wallace brothers were typically fine furniture salesman, but
knew nothing of manufacturing. And they got into financial troubles in the early thirties and then
the business was auctioned, most of the equipment was auctioned off, and then Frank McKay, he
got interested in it and started it up again. That didn’t succeed, and there was another auction.
And me being a factory man, I went to all the auctions and did buy some equipment, but I’ve
always thought an auction to me was like going to the circus. I loved it. Of course the Luce
Furniture Company was very successful before the Depression. That was run by Martin Dregge,
and Hamp Holt. Hamp Holt was a good manufacturer. Dregge was a good salesman. They
�14
absorbed the Furniture Shops, which had previously been the John D. Raab Chair Company. And
they were quite successful and they also took the Michigan Chair Company which was a
successful upholstery company.
Interviewer: Who owned that company?
Kindel: That was owned by Luce Furniture Company, and I’ve forgotten the name of the man
that owned the Michigan Chair Company at the time. Then of course, the Sligh Furniture
Company, they employed about eight hundred employees at one time.
Interviewer: Really? That many?
Kindel: They were a good size operation, and very famous of course for their bedroom furniture.
I don’t think they made dining room furniture, but they were a big outfit.
Interviewer: Eventually Mr. Chuck Sligh went to Holland and went into business will Bill
Lowry, but what happened to the Sligh Furniture Company?
Kindel: The Sligh Furniture Company was being run by Norman McClave, and somehow or
other he and Chuck didn’t get along too well. Chuck Sligh went down to Holland with Bill
Lowry, who is a one of the top production men and an engineer, and they started the Sligh
Furniture Company in Holland. Guess they called it the Sligh-Lowry Company, and they’ve
been very successful. Chuck Sligh of course is a fine salesman, and I admire him very much.
Interviewer: As I recall it they made some really beautiful desks?
Kindel: No, they weren’t beautiful desks. I don’t agree with you on that, they were production
desks.
Interviewer: Production desks.
Kindel: And not the kind you’d see in the White House.
Interviewer: Did you see any Grand Rapids Furniture in the White House?
Kindel: I don’t know, there are some beautiful breakfronts down there, but I think most of those
pieces are antiques.
Interviewer: I guess they have the Sousaski[?] rugs?
Kindel: Well I didn’t notice the rugs; I was looking more at the furniture, because your furniture
is in your blood.
Interviewer: Resuming our discussion of present furniture factories that are in existence in Grand
Rapids, we started to mention a few of them and I suggested you talk about some of those.
�15
Kindel: Well we still have the John Widdicomb Company, and they make very fine furniture.
The Master-Craft Furniture make occasional pieces.
Interviewer: And they’re the company still owned by the family?
Kindel: And that’s still owned by the family. The John Widdicomb Company is owned by
Hickory Furniture Company, Hickory, North Carolina. The Johnson Furniture Company who are
famous for making quality furniture is owned by Holiday Inns now. The Hekman Furniture
Company, which started in about nineteen twenty-three or four is owned by Beatrice Foods. The
Imperial Furniture Company is owned by Chicago Musical Instruments Company. The Kindel
Furniture Company is owned by Ball Brothers of Muncie, Indiana that make mason jars, part of
their conglomerate. I understand Colonial Clock Company from Zeeland who have a plant in the
old Berkey and Gay, Plant One has been sold recently to somebody else and I don’t know who
bought it. That’s been sold but, there are very few family businesses left and the only one that I
can think of that really amount to very much is Mastercraft and Ralph Morse Furniture Company
is owned by Jim Alexander, and he also owns Fine-Arts Furniture, which makes very nice
occasional pieces.
Interviewer: These companies are relatively small I would assume.
Kindel: Well, there are no big plants, no big companies in Grand Rapids left now, I don’t think
there’s any plant that employs more than three hundred people.
Interviewer: What would that be?
Kindel: That might be Imperial Furniture Company who are making organ cases and jukebox
cases, and some television cabinets. I guess the next or second one would be John Widdicombe;
they probably employ two hundred and twenty-five or so. I don’t know how many Kindel has
now, but KindelError! Bookmark not defined., we bought the Valley City Furniture Company
plant at auction for our chair operation and that is still being operated by the Ball Brothers as
Kindel Plant Number Two. They make dining room chairs and also they are making a line of
occasional tables which are very nice. Then they rented a part of the Allen Calculator Company
and that is their upholstery division. They’re making upholstered furniture.
Interviewer: Well let’s leave the topic of furniture for a minute and, you mentioned a while back
when we were talking with the machine off that you had collected barometers and stored some of
them and put them in good working order. How did you happen to get interested in that?
Kindel: Well barometers have been a hobby of mine for the last 25 years. I bought the first one in
Canada, in Toronto at an antique shop; it wasn’t working and I made it work. And then I picked
up a couple more and on a trip in nineteen forty-nine to England, I brought ten of them back in
the trunk of my car, and the customs officer said to me, “What are you going to do with all that
junk?” Well that’s part of my hobby and I fixed them all up, restored them and made them work;
�16
then I’ve had some shipped in from England since. And everybody in town thinks if their
barometer’s not working they can call Chuck Kindel. I had a call one day from a woman friend
of ours here, I didn’t know her but I knew him and she said she bought a barometer in Chicago
and the porter had tipped it over on the train coming back and broke the mercury tube and she
said if my husband knows how much I paid for that and then broke the tube he’d shoot me. So I
immediately fixed her barometer for her that same day, and when he came back from his fishing
trip he saw the barometer and never knew that it had been busted. Then Marshall-Fields when
they would sell an antique barometer in this territory they would expect me to service it for them.
I got a call one a day from the head of Marshall-Fields antique department, and said that they had
a customer that had bought a barometer and wouldn’t pay for it because he said it wasn’t
working. And they gave me the name and so on my way home from work that night I stopped
and it happened to be Bennett Ainsworth’s wife Emily who I had been in school with, Emily
Hine, and I said I’m from Marshall Fields, she said, “Chuck Kindel what are you doing working
for Marshal Fields?” Well I said, “I service the barometers.” I took it and fixed it for them.
Interviewer: Did they ever pay you for this service?
Kindel: No it was part of the courtesy when you do business with Marshall-Fields, you do those
things.
Interviewer: You were doing business with Marshall-Fields?
Kindel: Yes, Marshall-Fields were very good customers of ours.
Interviewer: How much volume did you business do?
Kindel: I believe at the time about four million, four and a half million dollars a year.
Interviewer: That’s respectable.
Kindel: Yes, if you can make it profitable.
Interviewer: Well I think that this has been a delightful afternoon and I have enjoyed talking to
you.
Kindel: Why don’t we have a drink?
Interviewer: That sounds like a good idea why don’t we shut her off.
�17
INDEX
A
Ainsworth, Bennett · 18
Ainsworth, Emily · 18
Allen Calculator Company · 17
Aves Advertising Company · 14
Fitzgerald, Mrs. · 12
Foote, Stuart · 6, 10
Foote, Vernon · 6
Foote-Reynolds Company · 5, 6
Ford, Jerry · 1, 2, 3
Ford, President · 1
Frank McKay · 15
Furniture Manufacturer’s Association · 8
Furniture Shops · 15
B
Baker Furniture Company · 14
Baker, Hollis · 13, 14
Ball Brothers · 16, 17
Behler, Gerald · 3
Behler-Young company · 3
Berkey and Gay Furniture Company · 14, 16
Blodgett house · 12
Bower Furniture Company · 10
C
Cassidy, Richard · 3
Central High School · 11
Chaffee, Roger · 3
Chicago Musical Instruments Company · 16
Civic Auditorium · 14
D
Demmon, Ralph · 13
Depression · 7, 15
Detroit Ball-Bearing Company · 12
Dexter, Clare · 6
Dregge, Martin · 15
G
Gay, Bill · 15
Gibson Manufacturing · 9
Grand Rapids Chair Company · 6, 10
H
Hekman Furniture Company · 16
Hendricks, Gus · 13
Herkommer, Marianna · 1
Hickory Furniture Company · 16
Holt, Hamp · 15
Hunting, Dave · 14
I
Imperial Furniture Company · 6, 9, 10, 16, 17
Irwin, Robert W. · 10
J
John D. Raab Chair Company · 15
John Widdicomb Company · 14, 16
Jonkhoff Funeral Home · 11
E
Engle brothers · 3
Exhibitors Building · 13, 14
F
Fine Arts Building · 13, 14
Fitzgerald, Mr. · 12
K
Kindel Furniture Company · 7, 9, 10, 14, 16
Kindel, Charles J. · 1
Kindel, Charles M. · 1
Kindl, Gabriel · 1
Knapp and Tubbs · 14
Kroehler, Peter · 5, 6
�18
L
Lowry, Bill · 15, 16
Luce Furniture Company · 15
Reynolds, Mrs. · 5
Reynolds, Seal · 5
Roosevelt, Teddy · 2
S
M
MacLear, Jessie M. · 1
MacLear, Thomas · 1
Marshall-Fields · 17, 18
Master-Craft Furniture · 16
McClave, Norman · 15
Michigan Chair Company · 15
Mueller Furniture Company · 10
Sligh Furniture Company · 15, 16
Sligh, Chuck · 12, 15, 16
Sligh-Lowry Company · 16
Starr, Orin · 11
Steketee, Chuck and Don · 12
Stuart Furniture Company · 6
T
N
Trinity Methodist Church · 1, 3
Nelson, Clifford · 12
Nicholson-Cox Lumber Company · 9
V
O
Valley City Desk Company · 10
Valley City Furniture Company · 17
van Asmus, Katrina C. · 1
Oliver Machinery Company · 6
Owen Ames Kimball · 12
P
Perch, Ed · 3
R
Reynolds, Mary E. · 1
Reynolds, Mr. · 6
W
Wallace, Edward · 15
Wallace, Oliver · 15
Welch, Ken · 14
Widdicomb Furniture Company · 9
Wiersma brothers · 3
William-Kimp Furniture Company · 10
Willie May Burke Company · 10
World War Two · 8
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/413757ff7cc64b85bb815e3535674eed.mp3
a84d6c1084d1aef3ff4e72a4ade2de03
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Grand Rapids Oral Histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Local histories
Memoirs
Michigan--History
Oral histories (document genre)
Description
An account of the resource
Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977.
Creator
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Various
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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application/pdf; audio/mp3
Language
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eng
Type
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Text; Sound
Identifier
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RHC-23
Coverage
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1971 - 1977
Sound
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-23_49Kindel
Title
A name given to the resource
Kindel, Charles MacLear
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kindel, Charles MacLear
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Kindel was born in Colorado in 1899. His father was in the furniture business. He married Katrina C. van Asmus in 1924 and eventually took her place as trustee of the Starr Commonwealth. He was President Ford's boy scout leader in the 1920s.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan--History
Local histories
Memoirs
Oral histories (document genre)
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Personal narratives
Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Grand Valley State University
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Sound
Format
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application/pdf
audio/mp3
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1975