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Zipay, Sue
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Sue Zipay
Length of Interview: (31:44)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “Okay, Sue, start us with some background on yourself, and to begin with,
where and when were you born?”
I was born in Medford, Massachusetts in 1934.
Interviewer: “All right, and then how—where is that relative to Boston?”
I believe it’s west of Boston. I only was born there. I didn’t live there.
Interviewer: “Oh, okay, okay. Where did you grow up then?”
I grew up in Hingham, Massachusetts, which is south of Boston. Maybe thirty miles south of
Boston.
Interviewer: “Okay. At that point, was that kind of a small town on its own, or was it still
suburban Boston?”
It was a very small town. I think my high school graduating class was not even a hundred.
Maybe it was eighty to ninety students.
Interviewer: “Okay, and you’re a kid during World War II. Do you remember much about
what life was like in the war years in that period?”
Very little. I remember that we had blackouts on the cars. (1:03) They’d have to paint the
headlights. Half of them were black, and we had rationing, of course. You could only have
coupons to buy butter and meat and all that kind of stuff. And I remember seeing stars in the
windows of the people that had boys in the service. My brother was in the army. He got wounded
and ended up in the hospital and what have you. He’s okay now.
Interviewer: “Okay. So the war was definitely around at that point.”
Yes. But the best thing I remember about the war was the day it ended in 1945 when everybody
was dancing in the streets. It was a celebration that you would not forget.
Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go to high school?”
�Zipay, Sue
I went to Hingham High School.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you graduate?”
1952.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how did you learn to play baseball?”
I had four brothers, and I just was always athletic. I mean, if they got me a new pair of ice skates,
I skated. I, you know—I just—That athletic ability came natural to me. (2:03) So when we
started playing baseball, I could field grounders as well as they could, I could hit the ball as well
as they could, and when they went to have a sandlot game, they would knock on the door and
holler for me to come with them. So that’s kind of how it happened, and that’s how girls in those
days learned the skills of baseball. They don’t have that opportunity now because of little league.
That’s what we’re trying to correct. The All-Americans are trying to get some way for young
girls who prefer to play baseball instead of softball the ability to hone their skills, and that’s—
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did your school system have any athletic programs for girls?”
They had some, but their basketball team was horrible, so I played CYO basketball, which is a
little better.
Interviewer: “And what is CYO basketball?”
That was a Catholic Youth Organization. And I played on the softball team, of course, and it was
quite boring because in those days most girls couldn’t play very well. You might have one or two
or three on the team that could really play, and the rest of them were pretty bad. And I played
field hockey. The field hockey team. Whatever was available I played it.
Interviewer: “Okay, and on the softball team what position did you play?”
I played shortstop because that’s where all the balls went. I just wanted to be wherever it was.
Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right, and at what point did you learn about the All-Americans?”
That wasn’t until I graduated. My softball coach said, “Did you know there was a professional
baseball league in the Midwest?” I had never heard of it, and I couldn’t believe it. And it just so
happened that the chaperone for the Rockford Peaches lived about thirty miles away from me in
Natick, Massachusetts. Her name was Dottie Green. She was the original catcher or one of the
original catchers for the Rockford Peaches. Hurt her knee badly and ended up a chaperone. So I
drove up to her house and had a tryout on her driveway, and about two weeks later, I got a
contract in the mail.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how did you originally wind up in contact with her?”
�Zipay, Sue
From the high school softball coach. (4:14)
Interviewer: “Okay. So the coach knew her?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “And then he made that connection?”
She made that connection. Correct.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now when you first went and met her, what impression did
you have, or what did she tell you about the league?”
She didn’t tell me too much. We just went out and got a ball, and she threw me some grounders
and, you know, vice versa. And I think she was just looking to see what kind of skills and how I
moved. And you can tell an athlete when you see them, you know. Since I went into tennis when
I was older, and I can tell you a tennis player at age nine whether they’re going to develop into a
good one or not. So you just kind of know.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So now they’ve signed you up. Do you remember what they
were offering to pay you at that point?”
They paid me fifty dollars a week, and I believe it was two dollars a day for meals, which was
adequate in those days. And of course, I think every girl in the league will tell you they would
have played for nothing.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now at this point did you have a job, or…?”
I didn’t at that time, and then when I came back in the summers, I did. I was a secretary for
Raytheon Manufacturing, which is a big Boston company.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So now, well, it’s kind of launched you into your career. Do
you go someplace for spring training, or do you join the team when it’s already playing?”
I met them in South Bend. I got on the train in Boston at age—I think I was eighteen—against
the wishes of my mother and my aunt. They gave me a little, brown bag with a lunch on the
train. Had very little money. And so I went to South Bend. Was supposed to meet them there. I
went to the—I believe it was the Oliver Hotel. And I went there, and nobody was there. (6:02)
So I got the smallest room and the cheapest room they had in the hotel because I didn’t know if I
was going to have to pay for it or what. And a couple hours later, I got a knock on the door, and
there was Dottie Green, the chaperone, saying, “What are you doing in this little room?” And
from then on, then we had spring training. And, you know, that was it.
Interviewer: “Okay, and now was the league still training together at that point, or were
the teams now training separately from each other?”
�Zipay, Sue
The teams were training separately. Yeah, we were separate. Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right, and I think you had told me before we started this. You played for
the Rockford Peaches. But you’re in South Bend?”
That’s where they had the spring training.
Interviewer: “Okay. So all the teams were there, but they—”
No. Just the Peaches, and I don’t know why.
Interviewer: “So the Peaches were training in South Bend, Indiana?”
Yeah, and don’t ask me to explain that.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So you did not see the Blue Sox there?”
No, no.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So what was that—Do you remember the first day of spring
training? What it was like to go in there?”
I was scared to death, especially when I saw the women play because I thought I was pretty
good, and then when I saw the level and the abilities there, I realized I was just a small fish in a
big pond. And so we had our spring training, and Johnny Rawlings hit some grounders to me at
shortstop, and I just—I was so tired and so excited and so nervous. I just played, and it went
well. But there was no way I was ever going to become shortstop on that team as long as the girl,
Joan Berger, was there. She was an excellent player. And I know that I was really nervous for a
long time until he said to me one day, “Sue, you wouldn’t be here if you weren’t as good as all
the rest.” And so that kind of settled me down a little bit.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now about how long did spring training last?”
Oh, gosh. I don’t remember. Two or three weeks maybe. I remember I threw my back out. Yeah,
and I’ve had trouble ever since. Didn’t know. I thought maybe I was just stiff from all the spring
training because, you know, I could hardly walk up the stairs. I could hardly move my right leg.
And the chaperone finally decided I had something physically wrong with me, not just muscle
aches, so they took me to a chiropractor. (8:16) I’d never been to one in my life. And eventually
it worked out. But that was a long, long time ago, and I’ve had trouble ever since.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you have trouble hitting? I mean, playing baseball with the
good pitching?”
I had trouble hitting in the games because I was really nervous, and as you know, you go out
there as a girl, you never have people in the stands like boys. You’re not used to that, of course,
you know. You’re used to playing in the cow pasture where nobody’s watching. I remember
�Zipay, Sue
playing in the schoolyard when I was in seventh grade, and I’d be out there hitting the ball over
the fence. And all the teachers would be lined up in the window, looking out there and smiling
because it was—I was a novelty, I guess, at that time. But yeah, I was very nervous, and I look
back now and say, “Oh, I wish I had the brains now that I had then.” Because I wasn’t watching
the ball and so forth. So my batting average was pretty bad. But I did a lot of fungo practice, and
I hit to the fielders. And I did a lot of batting practice pitching, and I could hit it. I could hit it a
country mile, but I never got a chance to really get relaxed enough to do what I had the ability to
do.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. So you’re in South Bend for spring training, and then when that
ends, now do you go to Rockford?”
You know, it’s been a long time. We get on a bus and went to Rockford, I believe, and then we
got introduced to the places where Dottie Green would find all the homes we were staying. My
roommate was Dolores Lee. Pickles. I’m sure you’ve got her on your tapes somewhere. She was
a hoot to live with. She brought her accordion with her from Jersey City. She was just learning to
play it, and she would practice “(How Much Is) That Doggie in the Window?” over and over and
over again. (10:04) And she was a late sleeper. Always made us late for practice. So we’d get
punished. Have to run around the track three or four times. But she’s a great girl. Great girl.
Interviewer: “All right, and what kind of accomodations did you have?”
We stayed in private homes. Bedroom, you know. Twin beds. And we’d have kitchen privileges.
When we’d come back from a road trip, of course, you know, usually the people that owned the
home would do something nice like leave a cheesecake out for us or something like that. And
they did our laundry, and that was good.
Interviewer: “Okay. Do you know if the league paid them for that, or…?”
I don’t know what the arrangements were. I’m sure they paid them. I’m sure they did.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then—So when you’re at home, what would a typical day be
like?”
A typical day we come home from a road trip, catch a few hours of sleep, have to get up in the
morning and go to practice, and then we’d have a few hours off. And then we come back to the
ballpark around four o’clock to get wound up and ready for a night game. And we played every
night seven days a week. Double header on Sunday.
Interviewer: “All right, and do you remember—Now when you first went in, did you start
a game your first game, or did you come in later to replace somebody, or…?”
I just got put in when he needed me, and I didn’t play a lot. Like I said, I was utility, so he’d
throw me at second base or right field whenever he needed me. And if I wasn’t playing, I’d
coach first base or third base. Yeah.
�Zipay, Sue
Interviewer: “Okay. So was there—So what did the team have then by way of coaches?
You had a manager. Did you have—Did he have anybody else helping him?”
Not really, no.
Interviewer: “Just the players?”
Yeah. Right.
Interviewer: “Okay, and would the chaperone help coach because she was a former player,
or…?” (12:03)
No, no, no. She was a former player, but no. She’d just sit in the dugout and take care of
somebody if they got a strawberry from sliding into base. Or I remember once I hit a foul ball off
the bat, and somehow or another—don’t ask me how—the ball crawled up the bat and hit me in
the eye. And I went down like a—like a lump, and it puffed up like this. And, of course, I said,
“Leave me alone. I still want to play.” But they took me out of the game. But she was there for
those occasions.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Then when you had road trips and so forth, I mean, how did
that work? You’re going to play somebody else. What happens?”
Oh, we had the—We had the schedule. We knew when we were leaving and get on the bus at a
certain time and travel x number of hours and go to the hotel they had us scheduled in. You
know, you knew who you were rooming with because you had the same roommate most of the
time. We’d get to the—wherever we’re going to play, and then we’d go out to the field and,
again, practice before the game at four o’clock. So it was constant all the time.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what kinds of rules did they have for how you were supposed to
dress or behave, or to what extent were there still regulations on things?”
Okay. Well, you’ve probably got this from all the other girls, but, again, we couldn’t wear pants
in public. So if we’re in the—coming home from a game on the bus, and it’s ten o’clock at night,
and you’re in the bus with your jeans on, and you wanted to get off and get a cup of coffee, you
had to change and put a skirt on. We couldn’t smoke in public, and almost everybody smoked in
those days because we didn’t know that it was not good for you. So those were two. Two rules
that they stuck to. No pants in public. And no short hair. I mean, they wanted you to look like a
female, not like a boy.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then what about sort of personal conduct? I mean, did they
monitor you at all or tell you what you could and couldn’t do?” (14:05)
You know, when I came into the league, I think a lot of that stuff had disappeared, so nobody
ever told me what I should and shouldn’t do. But you obviously knew what you should and
shouldn’t do. I mean, you wouldn’t swear. You wouldn’t smoke. You wouldn’t wear pants. You
just—You just kind of knew.
�Zipay, Sue
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what sort of mix of players did you have on the Peaches? Because
this is now getting to the end of the league.”
Oh, we had—Well, one of ours—I don’t know how old she was. I thought she was 110 or
something at the time, but she was probably in her forties. Rosie Gacioch. And she was the
oldest player, and she’d been there for—I don’t know. Maybe from the beginning. And then, of
course, you’ve heard about Dottie Key who was one of the better players. Ruth Richard was the
catcher. She’s—I still keep in touch with her. She was a great catcher. We had a gal from
Boston. Lived near me. In fact, she drove me to and from the next year. I went with her. And I
think she’s—She’s got a little problem right now. She’s not really as sharp as she used to be. I’ll
put it that way. And she was a pitcher and had the greatest curveball you ever saw. The first time
I went and tried to warm her up, I couldn’t even catch the ball because it was dropping or
moving so fast. I think she had long fingernails. I think she did something with her fingernails.
Not really sure.
Interviewer: “All right. Now how—Do you remember how young the youngest players
were, or were you about the youngest?”
I was probably one of the youngest. Another gal came in with me at the same time. Jane Sands.
And then Jean Ventura. I was talking with her today. I think she was sixteen or seventeen.
Something like that.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now at this point did they have any kind of Minor League system, or
were there other teams affiliated with the league that they would get players from? Because
I don’t think—They didn’t have the barnstorming teams anymore by this time, so there
was not a junior league of any kind to get them.” (16:09)
No. Yeah, they were just getting what they could get. So they found me. I found them.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now what kind of fan support did you have?”
I guess in the beginning—and I wasn’t there—they said they were drawing up to ten thousand
people, which was great in those days. We did pretty well when I was there. I remember they
used to look around because they knew they had dropped off in attendance, and they’d say, “Oh,
how many did you think are here tonight?” And they’d say, “Two, three, four thousand.
Something like that.” But we had a good crowd.
Interviewer: “Did Rockford tend to have bigger crowds than the places—other places that
you played, or…?”
I can’t remember. Yeah, I can’t remember, but there were a lot of farm people. Farm boys that I
double dated with Pickles, you know.
Interviewer: “Okay. So there were still young men coming to watch the games. Now did
you get families coming?”
�Zipay, Sue
Yeah, a lot of families. And a lot of families liked to entertain us. I remember a lot of cookouts.
They’d have, you know, big cookouts with steaks and corn and all that. And when we had time
off, you know, they’d invite the whole league.
Interviewer: “Okay, and—Now you mentioned at the start of this that your mother wasn’t
very happy about your heading off. Did your family kind of get used to it after a while or
accept it or…?”
Obviously, they did. They had no choice because I was going to go. I mean, to me, that was the
greatest thing in the world, but as you know, in those days, a girl playing baseball, you know, it
wasn’t—It was kind of frowned upon, you know. I can remember them telling me to put the
jeans away, you know. “You’ve got to grow up, young lady. Stop playing with the boys.” The
girls couldn’t play, so what could you do? (18:06)
Interviewer: “All right. So you’re there in the ‘53 season. I don’t know. How did Rockford
do in ‘53?”
We didn’t win the pennant or get in the playoffs, I don’t believe.
Interviewer: “Grand Rapids won that year.”
Probably, yeah. I remember. You know, it’s such a long time, and I was there for just the two
years. And I was just beginning to get used to different players as a matter of fact. I remember
Gertie Dunn who has since, I think—A few years back she got killed in an airplane accident. She
was a pilot. She’s gone. The Weavers who could knock the ball a country mile. Big, strong girls.
But yeah, I don’t remember a lot of them.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then when the ‘53 season ends, you went back home, and did you
pick up a job then?”
Yeah, I was a private secretary. Yeah.
Interviewer: “And how did you wind up with that job? You just answered an ad, or…?”
Yeah, I just applied for it. Just went in there. Yep.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. And then—So you work for them through the winter, and
then it’s time to go off to play again. Now when they hired you, did they understand that
that would be going on, or…?”
I can’t remember when we got the notice that the league was finished exactly.
Interviewer: “Okay, but you did go back and play in ‘54, though.”
Oh, that’s right. Yeah.
�Zipay, Sue
Interviewer: “So you had one year there.”
Yeah. Okay. No, I just knew when it was time to go back. That’s when I went back with Marie
Kelley—Boston was her nickname—because she drove. And she was old enough to drive, so she
drove back and forth. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now from a player’s perspective—I guess, for you, the ‘54 season—
Were you now starting to kind of get the feel of things or be more comfortable?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you get to play anymore?”
A little bit more. A little bit more, you know. But I still had a lot to learn. Okay. I think at the—
A larger part of the league—They didn’t spend as much time with Johnny Rawlings. We didn’t
have training sessions. At the beginning, they really trained the girls. I think they were—The
coach before me—Bill Allington was his name, and I think Pickles played under him as well.
(20:14) But he really drilled skills into them. When I came, I had what I had. Raw talent. That’s
it. Anything that happened from then on I developed from watching and just listening.
Interviewer: “Okay. So the other players didn’t really work with you?”
Nobody worked with me. No. You just—You just picked it up.
Interviewer: “You just kind of went in, and you played. Okay. Now could you tell in 1954
that the league was in trouble?”
No. I didn’t have an inkling as to what was going on. Some of the older players did because they
knew. They knew that they were running out of money, and there was trouble.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did—Were there fewer teams in ‘54 than ‘53, or were you not
really counting?”
I wasn’t counting because I didn’t know what they had before, you know.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now was Rockford—Were they able to make payroll? I mean, did you
always get paid?”
Yeah, we—Right. We never had a problem with that, you know.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then when you got down to the end of the season, did they tell you
the league was ending, or did you just go home and not know?”
�Zipay, Sue
I’m trying to remember how they notified us. I can’t remember exactly when it was, but it was a
very sad situation. I think it was maybe at the end of the season. They told that we wouldn’t be
coming back. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Now Bill Allington wound up organizing a traveling team.”
Right, and Pickles went on that. She played on that. Jean. A few of them. For a couple years they
traveled around. They did quite well, too. Yep.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now where you asked to be part of that, or…?”
No. I wasn’t good enough. I hadn’t been there long enough. Bill Allington didn’t even know who
I was because I had never met him. (22:01) Johnny Rawlings was the coach when I went there.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. So now—Okay. Now you just sort of go back to Massachusetts.
So you go back home. So then did you have—Did you really kind of think or reflect at all at
that time? I mean, what’s happening to you. ‘What am I going to do now?’”
Yeah, yeah. It was very sad. However, I’ll fill this little—Something in there was—I had met a
young man who was a groundskeeper at Beyer Stadium in Rockford. A summer job from the
University of Illinois. And we kind of became an item. And it ended up that he went to pre-flight
school in Pensacola. And I went down there to visit him and bla, bla, bla. And so, to make a long
story short, we got engaged, and he’s the one I ended up marrying. And then I had three children,
and, you know, after that—What you do for the next ten years.
Interviewer: “All right. Yeah. Now did you basically—Did you stop working while you
were married and had kids, or did you have a job?”
Yeah. No. I just—I was full-time mother and housewife, which was wonderful. It’s a shame they
can’t do that in this day and age.
Interviewer: “Some can if they can afford it.”
But that’s the only way they can.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. Now—But you didn’t necessarily—You didn’t—You
couldn’t play baseball anymore, but did you still stay involved with athletics in some
form?”
You know, I tried, but when you have three little babies all born close together, and housewife—
The whole—I had no time. I had a lot of energy. I guess I put it into cleaning floors and doing
housework things and knitting and sewing and doing all those feminine things that women do.
And until the kids were—The youngest one was in maybe third grade. Somewhere around there.
And then some neighbors invited me to play tennis, and I thought, “I’ve never played tennis in
my life, but I’m athletic, and they’re old ladies. I can—” (24:09) And that’s when I found out it
was a skill sport. And I got hooked on tennis, and that became my second—second career. Sport.
�Zipay, Sue
Interviewer: “Okay, and so then how did that play out? I mean, you—”
Well, I worked at it. Kind of self-taught, and I got ranked in New England. I played a lot of
doubles. Not a very good singles player. I could serve like crazy because it’s kind of like
throwing a ball. And launching that volley. That was my plan. And I became very involved. I
went to school—Vic Braden school in California—and learned how to teach. Then I became a
teaching pro, which I loved, and worked with some programs where I lived then with the kids.
And when we moved to Florida, I bought a tennis club that was falling down and dilapidated,
and we turned it into a really nice, little place. And I’ve been there for thirty years.
Interviewer: “All right, and at what point did you get involved with the women’s baseball
league association? Because they’re—they’ve been now going for like thirty-five years.
How long have you been connected to them?”
Well, I’ve been—I can’t remember when the first one was, but I was on the board for a period of
time when Baumgartner was there. Can’t remember with any years. I’m no good at dates. And
then I went to a lot of the reunions but not all of them because I was busy with the tennis club,
and I’m paranoid about flying. Second reason. I’ve become more involved lately because they
got me on a vision committee, and then I started thinking about what the future holds and our
legacy. And the museum idea was like a lightbulb going off in my head, so I’ve been more
involved in the past few years. (26:01)
Interviewer: “Okay. Now talk to me about the museum idea. What museum? What idea?
And how did that come about?”
Well, some members of the league wanted to have a stand-alone baseball museum for women.
They talked about putting it in Cooperstown, which is way out in the sticks as you know, and I’m
thinking, “Okay. How are you going to sustain it? How are you going to support it way out
there? Who’s going to come?” I didn’t think it could ever work. That was my own personal
opinion. And then they talked about putting it somewhere else, and it’s the same thing. And I
thought, “Well, there’s so many sports nowadays, and females that are making so much money
in sports as well.” And there’s nothing in this country. There is no women’s sport museum
anywhere in this country. And we have a Hall of Fame here, a Hall of Fame there. The stars are
in there, but there’s no history of women’s sports. I remember Babe Didrikson came to one of
our baseball games. It was great. She threw some balls, and she pitched some. I’ll never forget
that because she was a great female athlete. And I thought, “We need a place where we can tell
all the stuff about the history of women and what they’ve gone through. And, you know, it’s
being lost.” I have a friend of mine that played on a field hockey team, and they toured Europe in
the 50s. Nobody’s ever heard of that. They never heard her name, and she’s got a scrapbook full
of stuff like that. And there’s a lot of that that’s just totally being lost, and I was hoping that
through this museum and the history of women’s sports, we can entice people to get on there and
talk about stuff that’s happened and what’s gone on in the past. And then, in addition to that, my
vision is that we have some kind of education. Classrooms for little girls to go in and say, “You
might not be a good baseball player, but you might love the game. What can I do? I can be a
journalist. I can be an umpire.” And all these careers that are now available in sports that weren’t
�Zipay, Sue
available when I was there. So that’s what I’m hoping is the history, education, you know, past,
present, and what the future holds for young girls. (28:01)
Interviewer: “Okay, and so how far have your plans come along, or what’s happened?”
We’re just in our second year of gala fundraising. We’re having a gala. October 20th, 2017 in—
at the Selby gardens in Sarasota, Florida. And then if we can raise enough funds, we’ll start our
capital fundraising. And so we have some people on the committee that have diverse skills. We
have a non-profit man and an architect and a builder and a woman who’s a professor at, I think—
I think it’s Vanderbilt. I’m not sure. But a group that have different skills to help put this thing
together, and they’re all really enthused. And I’ve talked to men and women, and they all think
it’s a great idea. So the enthusiasm is there. Now it’s a matter of getting the funds together. And
Sarasota is—I picked it not because I live in Englewood, which is maybe—just south of
Sarasota—but because it’s a huge sports, tourist town now. They have the new—Rowing
championships are coming there in a week or two, and they’ve got Bollettieri’s. And they’ve got
all the spring training.
Interviewer: “Bollettieri is the tennis academy?”
The tennis—He’s now branched out into football and baseball. All the sports he’s got going. So I
thought, you know, “People come there for sports, and where else? A women’s sports museum.
That’s the perfect place for tourism.”
Interviewer: “So you have spring training teams down there and Minor League Baseball
and all sorts of things.”
Perfect. And, you know, the Braves are coming there now, and they’re going to build their spring
training stadium about five miles from where I live. And I’ve got this little idea that maybe I can
talk them into having their facility become a training ground for girls’ baseball. I don’t know.
But that’s how it has to get started in order to have the little girls develop their skills because
there’s no other way. Otherwise, at sixth or seventh grade, they say, “You can’t play baseball
anymore. You have to play softball.”
Interviewer: “Well, I mean, the women who played on the Peaches—I mean, did you know
much about how they learned to play?” (30:06)
Same as I did. We all developed our skills the same way with the boys in a field. A cow pasture
or wherever we could, you know, throw a base down. We’d come. They’d knock on the door,
and you’d get your glove. And if there was six of us or four of us or three of us, it didn’t matter.
“You got the field. You’re up at bat.” I mean, we just had our sandlot games, and we played with
the boys, which helped us develop our skills. So that was the main way.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now to think back on the time that you spent with the league, how do
you think that affected you, or what did you take out of it?”
�Zipay, Sue
Oh. Cliché. The camaraderie. The team concept. That’s the big thing. Is, you know, you’re not
an individual. You’re part of a larger thing there. And the friendships, you know. As you can see,
they’ve lasted all these years.
Interviewer: “Did you gain confidence in yourself through this?”
I think I did. Yeah. I mean, like I said, you come there as a naïve, young girl, and you have to get
up and hit a ball with four, five thousand people watching. That’s something that’s difficult to
overcome and, you know. But it does. It gives you the self-confidence. And what Johnny
Rawlings said to me. “If you weren’t good enough, you wouldn’t be here.” You know, all that’s
good for your self-esteem.
Interviewer: “All right. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to share your story
today.”
I hope you enjoyed it. (31:44)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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ZipayS2150BB
Title
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Zipay, Sue (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Sue Zipay was born in Medford, Massachusetts, in 1934 and grew up in Hingham. In grade school, Zipay recalled the wartime rationing, blackouts, and public celebrations at the end of the Second World War. In high school, she played for a Catholic Youth Organization basketball team, and a softball team as a shortstop, before graduating in 1952. After undergoing a tryout for AAGPBL Rockford Peaches chaperone Dottie Green, Zipay was contracted to play for the team during the 1953 season and attended spring training in South Bend, Indiana. Zipay did not have a set position with the Peaches, so she could be placed into any empty field position while also coaching first and third bases while not on the field. The team was forbidden to wear pants, smoke, swear, or have long hair while in public as to still give off a feminine appearance while not on the field. After acquiring a winter job, Zipay returned to the Rockford Peaches for the 1954 season and eventually learned that the League was being disbanded at the end of the season. Some of her colleagues went on to play for a new traveling team while Zipay got married and started a family. After having three children, she recognized that she could not return to any baseball programs and remained committed to serving her family while also taking up tennis in her spare time. Still interested in athletics, Zipay became a ranked tennis player in New England and attended Vic Braden School in California for a degree in teaching. She then moved to Florida and opened a tennis club, joined the Women's Baseball League Association, and helped organize plans for the construction of a women's baseball museum. Reflecting upon her time with the League, Zipay believed she gained a greater sense of confidence and camaraderie while playing for the Rockford Peaches.
Creator
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Zipay, Sue
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Video recordings
Sports for women
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball for women--United States
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
Coverage
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World War II
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-24
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/69c0eec712275fa5f158d6dfa06b5e19.m4v
2474cf52e618daf68182a74ecff884c5
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5e96e06d6348ece2cbe26ce861da9553.pdf
8c76cbc7719ee28ba4c799eb3607e8be
PDF Text
Text
O’Rear, Nancy
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Nancy O’Rear
Length of Interview: (46:51)
Interviewed by: Frank Boring
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “If we could begin, what is your name, where were you born—”
Nancy Kellogg O’Rear.
Interviewer: “And when and where were you born?”
Ivanrest, Grandville. Really it’s part of Grandville, but in Ivanrest. They used to call it that.
(1:03)
Interviewer: “Okay, and am I going to get a date of the birth by any chance?”
Sure. 1/7 of ‘38.
Interviewer: “Okay. What was your early childhood like growing up in that area?”
It was great. It was great. My father worked for the railroad. My mother was a stay-at-home
mom. I had just one sister a year older than I, so we had a wonderful, wonderful growing up.
Interviewer: “Were you in a farm area, or where you had people around you? Or what was
the environment? Give us an idea visually of what it was like to be growing up in that
area.”
Well, in that area—My father had chickens, but that’s about it. Just chickens. He made a little
doll—a little house out there on the chicken feed. My mom, Wendy, would take—after the feed
is gone—would make us girls blouses. But nothing else. 28th Street at that time—Of course, it
wasn’t 28th Street, but it was busy. It was busy, but there was a great, big field in front of us. The
house. And the main—The big 28th Street. (2:15)
Interviewer: “Did your father get the newspaper? Did you have a radio?”
We had a radio. Yes. And my father had newspaper.
Interviewer: “Okay. So he kept up on at least the local and what was going on around
and…?”
Yes, yes.
�O’Rear, Nancy
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you get a chance to listen to the radio as well?”
Us girls—He would let us girls hear a few programs. Sure, sure.
Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go to school?”
Well, after we lived in there, my father moved into town, and we moved up to Burton Heights.
And us girls went to the elementary school there. Burton Elementary. Then we went to South
High.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what were the types of things you were studying?”
Well, geography. I loved that. My sister loved history. But math and all your kind of common
grades, you know.
Interviewer: “Yeah. This is a trick question. We’ll get to it later, too. Any sports?”
Oh, brother. Sports. I was my dad’s boy, and my sister was all girly. But for Christmas I wanted
nothing but a mitt and a ball and a basketball. And ever since I can remember.
Interviewer: “Wow. But at school were you able to play any sports?”
No. Nope. They didn’t have any—They had no sports in school. No summer sports. Once in a
while out for recess us girls would get in a—like a kickball, and we’d run the bases. But that’s
far as that would—that is. (4:07)
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you get a mitt at all?”
Oh, certainly. My father made sure on Christmas I got a mitt. A small mitt because I was
younger then and a small ball. And my dad would play catch with me. He didn’t have a mitt,
but—Until later that I got a nice, big mitt, you know.
Interviewer: “Sure. But your first introduction was, as a very young girl, you’re playing
catch with your dad.”
Right, right.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did your—Your sister wasn’t interested in doing this?”
No, no.
Interviewer: “Okay. Were there other girls in the neighborhood that you played with?”
There was one. Just one girl that—But she kind of lived a little far away, so she didn’t come over
too often.
�O’Rear, Nancy
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Was there any boys’ teams around you?”
As I got older there were but not that I remember. There was any boys’ teams neither.
Interviewer: “Okay. When did you first hear about this group of women baseball players?”
Well, I got an uncle that—He tried out for Tigers. Detroit Tigers. And we were at my
grandparents’ house, and him and I were playing catch. And he was throwing the ball pretty
hard. And my grandfather says, “How come, Nancy, you never went down to a Chick game?” “A
Chick game?” I says. “Wow. Yeah.” And he says, “And it’s right down the street from me but
not far from you.” He says, “Would you like to go tonight?” And I said, “Oh, you betcha.”
Interviewer: “So tell me how the day went.”
So we went that night. My recollection, they lost, but oh my gosh, my world is opened up. I
wanted to play with them. I wanted to be a ballplayer like them. (6:08) And so that’s when we
started going every single night. I wouldn’t miss a night. Away games. At first I had to read it
through the newspaper, but it wasn’t long that I could—I got on the buses with the girls.
Interviewer: “Okay. We’re getting ahead of ourselves here. All right. So you go to your
first game, and when you came home, what was your…?”
Oh, I was just lit up like a candle. My dad said, “How did you like that?” And I went, “Oh, Dad.
How come you never told me about the Chicks?” Well, he’s busy working at the railroad, and
that night, you know, you come home. And he just never thought of it, I guess. And he says, “Is
that something you like?” And I—“Oh my goodness. That’s something I love.” I loved to play
the ball.
Interviewer: “Well, it’s wonderful your father encouraged you. So from that point on, he
made it a point to let you know that they were going to play somewhere?”
Yes, yes. Yes, he did. And my grandfather. They’d say, you know, “Got a game tonight.” “Okay,
Grandpa.” And Dad would say, “Yep. You can go.” You know. So we would meet every home
game and then away games. And my dad would say, “Better read this in the paper, Nancy.” You
know. “See what they did.” And oh, I—That’s what got me started reading. I read that sports
section every single day.
Interviewer: “Wow. So let’s walk through this slowly. Your first game and then you started
going at first to the home games because you’re not traveling yet. I don’t want to travel yet.
We’ll get to that. Okay? So your first home game. Then, roughly, when was the next home
game? Within a month? Within a week?” (8:10)
No, I think it was the next night. It was the next night, but I think they played three games if I
can remember. Three games home. I went to every one of them. Yep.
�O’Rear, Nancy
Interviewer: “And this was the Chicks playing against—Do you remember who they were
playing against?”
No, I can’t remember back there. I don’t remember.
Interviewer: “That’s okay. About what year was this?”
I think 1951. Well, I started—I think Grandpa took me in ‘50, but I really think it was the end of
the—going towards the end of the season. So it was ‘51 that I really made sure I was there every
day. Every game. And yeah, I thought that was really fantastic. “We’ve got a girls baseball team
right here that close.”
Interviewer: “And how old were you? You’re already a teenager by this time?”
I might have been thirteen, fourteen. Fourteen. And then I asked my dad if I could watch them
practice because it wasn’t far from school. And I said, you know, “I’ll get my homework done
when I get home, but could I go down and watch the girls play practice? During, you know, their
practice?” Well, he—“Sure.” He encouraged all of that. Yes. So then I started going down from
school and watching the girls practice and kind of got close to the field and kind of start talking
with them a little bit.
Interviewer: “Ah, now we’re getting somewhere. Okay. So let’s try to remember what
you’re feeling like when you actually made that first—” (10:06)
Oh, that was—That was just—It was just fantastic, you know. It was fantastic.
Interviewer: “Well, what happened? You were sitting there in the bleachers. They’re
playing.”
And they were playing. They’re practicing. Now they’re practicing, you know, and they’d come
in after a while. And I’ve got to get a little bit closer to the game, and I, you know. You get down
by the field and, you know. “Hey, Ziggy. That was a pretty good catch you had out there.” And
Sadie Satterfield, you know. I’d say, “Boy, you’re doing great out there in that field, you know.
Let’s get a home run tonight.” You know. So they got to know, you know—And then they, you
know—Pretty soon it was, you know. “What’s your name?” And I told them my name. Just a
couple of them, you know, and it was—It was just—Oh, gosh. I didn’t want to go home. I
wanted to stay right there with them, you know, which I did. I did see the game that night and the
next night.
Interviewer: “Was there a point where—You’re going to the practices now. That they
started to recognize you?”
Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, they, you know—I don’t remember if there was a shortage or what
happened, but they invited me out on the field. And, of course, I took my glove to school every
day, so I could have it ready in case there was a ball come my way, you know. Yeah, I liked to
�O’Rear, Nancy
play catch, you know. I think I wanted—“Can I play catch with you?” And I—They said, “Why,
sure.” I can’t remember why, but—“Yeah, you can play catch.”
Interviewer: “Were there more people in the stands during practice?”
There were a few.
Interviewer: “Okay. So you kind of stood out.” (12:01)
Yeah, yeah. There was a few that come down to watch the practice, you know. That’s—So that,
you know—
Interviewer: “But they were adults?”
Oh, yeah. Mostly adults. Yeah, mostly all adults.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you pretty much stuck out because you were the young kid.”
Oh, yeah. Young kid, you know. “What’s she doing?” And it seemed to me that I can really—
Liked it was—I don’t know if it was Ricketts. I know it was one of the girls threw, and I jumped
as high as my little legs would jump. And they had said, “Wow.” You know. “You ought to play
with us tonight.” And I said, “Boy.” I wished I could, you know. Well, then after that night and
the next night, you know, and then it was—I’d go down by the field again, and then it was like,
“You coming out here, or are you going to sit in the bleachers?” Well, I thought, “Boy. Come on,
Dad. You ought to come down just to practice to watch your daughter.” You know. But I knew
that I couldn’t play with them. It was off the field when the game started. But I played catch with
quite a few of them. I kind of watched how they did their things. And yeah, one day the manager,
you know, he says, “Oh, why don’t you—Kid.” I think he called me “kid” for a while. “Why
don’t you get out in outfield?” Well, I liked third base and catching, and going out in outfield
was like, “Oh my gosh.” And, of course, the first one I missed, and I’m thinking, “Oh my
goodness.” Well, then he hit a couple more, and pretty soon then I caught them just like the girls
did. You caught them, you know. And I’m thinking, “Oh my goodness. I’m out here playing
catch with the big girls.” You know. (14:03) So that’s—I really—How I really got to go there, to
get in with them, and then at—My dad—They asked me if I wanted to go to some of their away
games, which my father kind of frowned at first. But I think it was the next year he said, “If you
want to go, you can go.” So I went to Kalamazoo. I went to Muskegon. South Bend, Indiana.
Interviewer: “Well, what was it like—All right. First of all, they’re all in uniform. They’ve
got those skirts and all that. What were you wearing?”
Well, I took shorts to school. Yeah. Just put on some shorts at the end of school when I—After
school. Put on my shorts and just a top and walk down there. Begged my dad for some cleats,
you know. But the first year he didn’t say anything, but pretty soon I’d say, “Dad, I’ve got to
have some cleats when I’m out there.” And you know. And I think he was a little proud, too, you
know. So I got cleats. I got a bigger glove, and then I had to oil it and get it all fixed up so I
could get out there on the field with those girls.
�O’Rear, Nancy
Interviewer: “Now we found out—Dr. Smither and I found out in our interviews with the
All-Americans that several of them started out fairly young—as early as their teens—and
they were recruited in different ways as you know. Okay. Was there any talk about your
being recruited?”
Well, the manager had said to me, you know—He asked me my age and what—And had I been
graduated from high school. No, I wasn’t graduated yet. “Well, as soon as you graduate, you’ll
be on the field. You come down here.” But that doesn’t really mean I was going to be with the
Chicks. (16:01) Of course, that was my preference. But he said, you know, “You be here.” He
said, “As soon as you graduate from high school.” Of course, that made me so happy. So—Oh
my goodness. Couldn’t wait to tell Mom and Dad about that, you know.
Interviewer: “What was their reaction?”
Oh, they were thrilled. Yeah. Even Mom, and Mom never went to a game. But then Dad started
going more to games with Grandpa, and, of course, Grandpa was on cloud nine. And they
were—They were happy about that. They were really happy.
Interviewer: “I’m just curious. Because they made good money. In some cases, some of
these women were making more than their own father was making. Was that at all part of
the discussion, or was there…?”
There wasn’t nothing really discussion about money to me. I didn’t need any money. If I could
just play, that was the big thing. No, nothing was really mentioned about—Just the manager, you
know, asking me all the questions, and he said he’s been watching me. And a couple times he’d
say, you know, “Get down here.” If I’m just getting back there from school, I had things I had to
set down, but—“Get out here on this field.” Which it surprised me because—Of course, there
wasn’t any other young girls, or there wasn’t—I don’t even think there was young boys that were
out there, but I thought, “Gosh. Here I stood out with all these—” There was—A lot of elderly
would, you know, come there to watch the game, but I was happy. Oh my gosh, was I happy.
Interviewer: “What were the crowds like at the actual game, not the practice?”
Oh, they had four to five thousand people. They had a big crowd. They had a big crowd. (18:02)
Interviewer: “And there’s a lot of sense of excitement.”
Oh, definitely, definitely.
Interviewer: “So, as a kid, you’re in the middle of all that yelling and that noise and you
knew that you’d actually been practicing out there. Now you’re standing—sitting there in
the stands with all of them.”
Yes. Right. And then you had some of these guys come out, you know. “Well, when are you
going to get a chance to play?” You know, they had been there watching the practice. “Well, I
�O’Rear, Nancy
haven’t graduated from high school yet, so I will be there as soon as I graduate.” Well, then they
start asking, “Well, how old are you?” You know. And you get to kind of meet some of the
people that were out in the crowd, you know.
Interviewer: “At that point—Let’s take you to the point where these things are happening.
People are asking you questions like this. The managers have. Did you seriously think that
you could actually make a career?”
Oh, certainly, certainly.
Interviewer: “So you wanted to be a professional ballplayer?”
Ballplayer. You betcha. I took balls on the dime. I did everything. Yes, I was going to be a
professional baseball player. Girls baseball player. You betcha.
Interviewer: “Now your father finally agreed to let you go on a road trip. You mentioned
Kalamazoo as an example. What was that like? I don’t want just, ‘I got on the bus, and
they were talking.’ I want—Bring us to that little girl getting on that bus. What was that
like?”
Oh, that was such a thrill. You don’t care if you eat, drink. And there was some of them—And
maybe I did, too. Complained about the heat because they weren’t air-conditioned in those days.
And I would sit with maybe this one, you know, and we’d yak away. And then I’d go across
the—If there was a seat across there, I’d go over there and talk to them. And I says—I wanted to
get their ideas about the ball games and about—and a little bit about them, too, because I know a
lot of them come from farms from different places. And we talked a lot, you know, about them.
And yeah, it was a—It was a thrill. Oh my goodness. (20:15)
Interviewer: “What was their reaction to you? You’re not a ballplayer.”
Right. At first, I was—I wondered the same thing, you know. “What are they going to say?”
Because I had this girlfriend. She went once in a while with me, too. And, you know, none of
them—Couple of them asked me, “Are you going to play someday?” “Why, certainly.” “What
positions do you like?” They didn’t seem to mind that I was in—I figured interfering with them
getting on the bus while they’re, you know, going to their ball game that—And a few asked me
my age and positions I like. And, “Did you ever try outfield?” And, “If you’re catching, you
know, and you see this girl coming towards you, you know, it’s like—Do you get nervous? You
going to get her out?” And, you know, and then—Just baseball talk, really. And I didn’t see any
of them—If they did, they didn’t show it.
Interviewer: “Do you remember any in particular that you kind of got a special liking to?”
Well, yes, I did. I did. I kind of think I favored Renae Youngberg, third base. Gabby—
Interviewer: “Because you wanted to be a third base person. Aha! Yeah, yeah, yeah.”
�O’Rear, Nancy
Yeah, right. Yeah. I wanted all the pointers, you know. Gabby Ziegler was a second baseman,
Lefty Voyce was on first base, and—But Gabby Ziegler and Connie Wisniewski out in the field
and Sadie Satterfield out in the field, you know. You kind of—Renae and Gabby I think were a
little bit, but I tried to talk to all of them, you know. I wanted to be—hear from all of them.
(22:04)
Interviewer: “Well, you mentioned that there’s no air conditioning on the bus. What else?
What else was going on on the bus? Was there singing? Was there talking? I mean, there’s
talking, obviously, but—”
Lot of talking, and there were some that were napping. And there were some that were just kind
of peeling an apple and kind of eating a snack or whatever, you know.
Interviewer: “What was the bus driver like?”
Oh, he was fun. Funny. He was funny. He was—He was great.
Interviewer: “Do you remember who he was?”
And I don’t remember. Yeah, I don’t remember his name. Nope.
Interviewer: “But he was just part of the group?”
Oh, yes. Right. Yeah. And he made sure all the baseballs and the bats and their uniforms all got
out of the bus and everything, you know.
Interviewer: “So once you arrived at a field, whether it was in Kalamazoo, what was the
procedure? When we did the interviews with the different girls, we were so much
concentrating on the games, but the bus trips they talked about. But what was it like for
you to—You’ve arrived. You’re going to go play—They’re going to go play a game. You’re
going to be part of it. What was—What were you thinking when you were getting off the
bus, and what did you expect?”
Well, just, you know, to see the different fields is one thing you learn right away, and some of
the fields you knew that the Chicks liked better than the others, of course, you know.
Interviewer: “And they would talk about that?”
Oh, yeah. They would talk about that.
Interviewer: “‘Oh, we’re at Kalamazoo.’ Or, ‘We’re at—’ Okay. Yeah.”
Yeah. “Oh, goodness. We’re going to have to play there in Fort Wayne.” And, you know. And,
“They got those slugger sisters on there.” And oh, yeah. You could hear all them talking. We’d
get to the field, and, of course, I’d always get my pop. And I always could sit as close to the—
Actually, there weren’t even seats. We kind of sat on the ground to the bleacher that the girls
�O’Rear, Nancy
were on, and there was never any complaints about that. (24:10) I always thought, “Boy, I hope I
don’t get hit with a ball because then they’ll probably kick me out of here.” But yeah. It was. It
was a thrill, you know. And I’d run right out on that field after the game if they had won, and I’m
thinking, “Oh, boy. Is this going to be allowed? Because I’m not even a player yet.” You know.
But they didn’t complain much. No, nothing. None of them did, you know. Just—I guess they
just figured I was a girl learning how to play baseball and come along with them, you know.
Interviewer: “Well, some of them started out at the same age you were at, you know. We
were surprised. Dr. Smither and I were surprised to find that some of them were thirteen,
fourteen years old. I mean, that’s—Had no idea.”
Yeah, that was quite a few years before I was in that.
Interviewer: “Now these away games in Kalamazoo, for example, did you just drive back to
Grand Rapids?”
They did. They would drive back to Grand Rapids. South Field. My dad would kind of know,
listening to the game if he could, that—about what time we’d get back. And then he’d pick us
up. He’d pick me up. Make sure I didn’t walk home.
Interviewer: “Would he know—Well, he would listen to the radio, so he knew how the
game turned out, right? But could he tell by the way you looked whether you won, or…?”
Oh, certainly. Oh, certainly. I’d jump all over the place, you know. “Okay. Calm down, Nancy.
We know they won the game today.” Definitely.
Interviewer: “So what happened if they lost?”
Well, he didn’t really say a whole lot. I’d get in the car, you know, and—“Well, they didn’t do so
good tonight.” “Yeah, I know, Nancy. I hear they lost, but there’s always another game.” You
know. He alway said there was always another game.
Interviewer: “Your dad sounds like quite a guy.” (26:02)
Oh, he was, he was, he was. He didn’t get married until he was thirty-six, you know, and then
by—In his forties, they had my sister and I. And oh, yeah, we were his pride and joy.
Interviewer: “Yeah. My grandfather worked for the railroad. I still have his watch.”
Oh, yeah. I had his watch, but I turned it over to our oldest son.
Interviewer: “Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Did you go to any away games that required
overnight?”
No. No, I couldn’t. If they did, I couldn’t have gone. My dad wouldn’t allow that. No.
�O’Rear, Nancy
Interviewer: “Because we got great stories about how they stayed with other people and
whatnot. Yeah, it makes sense that your dad wouldn’t want you to do that.”
Yeah, my dad wouldn’t like that. No.
Interviewer: “So you’re going to these games now. You’re considered almost like their
mascot. You’re the one that—You’re always allowed on the team, and so when they do the
practice and whatnot, you could play with them as well. Did you get any sense—We’re
talking ‘51 now, right? ‘51, ‘52. We know that it ended in ‘54. Were you going with them
all the way through that period? ‘51, ‘52, ‘53?”
Yes. Oh, yes.
Interviewer: “Did you notice any sense either through them talking or just a sense?
Because people—When you’re in a bus together, or you’re on a field together, there’s a
sense you feel. That things were changing?”
Well, no, I can’t really say I did. Maybe it was because I didn’t want it to happen, so you just
kind of—“Oh, that’s just talk.” You know. “That’s just talk.” No, I didn’t until my mom said,
“You’ve got to hear the radio this morning.”
Interviewer: “Okay, but you said, ‘Talk.’ There was talk.”
There was talk, but it’s something that you—“Oh, yeah. That’s way down the line. Way down
the line.” You just—Something you didn’t believe. You didn’t believe it. (28:06)
Interviewer: “One of the things that the women told us—the girls told us—was that there
was a point where they noticed that not as many people were coming to the games. Did you
notice that?”
Yes, yes. Yes, we did. Yes, they did.
Interviewer: “And so what was your—I know we’re going back a long ways, but can you
remember your emotions? You went to a game, and you knew there’s a lot of people there.
You’re going to a game, and there’s a lot of people. And at some point there’s not as many
people. Did you notice that?”
Yes, we did, and we kind of talked about it, too. What was going on that there wasn’t as many
spectators in the seats, you know? Well, no, we—You talked about it, but that was, you know—I
didn’t really put it that there was anything coming to an end to it.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah. Did you follow Major League male baseball?”
I did as I got—Last couple years as I was with them. Oh, definitely. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. Because you had newspaper, and you had radio.”
�O’Rear, Nancy
Yes, my dad always was listening to the Tigers. Always.
Interviewer: “All right. So at what point did you realize that things were not going to be the
way you thought it was?”
Well, that last year a couple of girls had said something, and I says—And I think it was Renae,
too. Said something about—“You know, we’re not going to be playing much longer.” “Well,
why not? I want to keep playing.” “Well, the war’s ending, you know, and there’s been talk that
the girls will be done.” Oh my gosh, that broke my heart. Oh my goodness. What could we do
now? “I’m not even on there yet. Don’t tell me that.” You know, I—“That ain’t what I want to
hear.” Broke my heart. (30:08)
Interviewer: “You were convinced—from what you’re saying—that—And you had a better
reason to believe you could actually get on the team. Some of the girls that we talked to
knew about girls that wanted to get on the team but couldn’t get on the team. But they
didn’t have that kind of intimate relationship. So I can’t even imagine what it must have
felt like to realize—Because you really thought that at some point you were going to get
hired, and you’re going to get your uniform, and you’re going to actually play.”
Right, right, right. I even talked to some of the girls about—“What number could I—am I
getting? You girls got this number, and you got that number. I wonder what number—You
know, do they just give them out? Do they ask you?” I didn’t even think about money because
money—I didn’t care, right? I wanted to play ball. That was my big—My main thing was to play
ball.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah. So when did it actually come to an end?”
Well, my mom said one morning, “Nancy, you’ve got to listen to the radio.” And at that time for
some reason I thought it was about the Chicks. It was about the girls playing ball because
otherwise she never really pointed out anything on radio. And I heard it, and I cried. And I cried.
And I went to the ballfield, and I wasn’t the only one. There were some of them that were crying,
too, you know. But that was the way it was going to be. I didn’t know what was going to happen.
I didn’t—I think I cried a week. My mom or father—One of them said, “There’s other things.”
“What other things is there than playing baseball? I can’t go join the men’s team.” Well, you
know. “What can I do?” (32:05) “Well, you can, you know—You’re going to graduate from high
school, and then you’ll figure on from there.” That was our—
Interviewer: “Yeah. Was there a goodbye to the team? Did you get a chance to say
goodbye?”
Well, we—We had a—what the ladies called a—What did they call it? Where we got together at
one of the ladies I met there. To her house. Like a slumber party more or less. To her house. And
the Chicks. Pretty near all of them were there. And we all hugged. We all cried. I think some
even cried because I didn’t make the team. I had a feeling that they’re thinking, “Nancy, you
didn’t even get on our team, and look at—Now it’s ending. And you would’ve been such a good
�O’Rear, Nancy
player.” And you know. And I think that even the manager had even mentioned that, you know,
he was going to make sure he got me on the team. I felt I would have made that team. I knew I
was going to make that team. But we had a farewell. We had a—what we kind of called it a
slumber party. It was a—Everybody was there. And we had a luncheon. We ate, and then we
cried. And that was it. They still had a few more games to play, but it was hard going after
knowing there wasn’t going to be anymore ball—girls’ ball games. It was hard going. I went
naturally because that’s where I lived. That’s where—My mom used to say, “Nancy lives at the
ballpark.” My sister, Donna, lives home, but Nancy lives at the ballpark. And it was true because
you know. (34:05)
Interviewer: “So once the league ended, and there was no more games there, did you still
play ball with anybody?”
Mostly just catch with my girlfriend. We’d get out in the street. Play catch. If we’d seen some
boys over at school playing, we just went in and started playing. I don’t know if they liked it that
we did, but we did.
Interviewer: “You probably were better than they were.”
Yeah, yeah. Some of them—“Get home. Get out of here.” They used to call me Muscles when I
was younger, you know. I don’t know why, but—“Oh, Muscles. What are you doing over here?
Get on home.” Yeah. Better than some of them that were playing. But we wanted to play. But
we’d just end up playing catch out in the streets, you know. That’s all we could do. There was
nothing else. I wrote to a lot of the girls. After the end of the season, I got all of their addresses.
I’d write letters. I would receive letters. For a long time. Of course, that gradually stopped after a
while. I even know who bought that bus. I don’t even know her name. From Jenison. I’ve got her
letter with me yet.
Interviewer: “You have the letters?”
Letter from her. She bought the Chick bus, you know. And I was always going to go over there,
or ask her if I could. But, you know, would that bring back too many memories? I just didn’t go.
Didn’t go.
Interviewer: “Do you know if that bus still exists?”
Well, this has only been maybe four or five years ago that she wrote me. It was after—I had that
article in the paper that she wrote me and said that they had bought the bus. But I don’t recall—
I’d have to read it again—if she still had it, or they had just bought it after the Chicks sold it. I
don’t know. (36:17)
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. So what did you do after it was all over with?”
Well, started dating, you know. You don’t date when you’re in there. And there were a few that
had husbands, and their husbands would come to the games, you know. Some had children. I
started working at Oven Fresh Bakery there on 28th Street, and later on I met my husband. He
�O’Rear, Nancy
was my foreman, so I probably shouldn’t say that. But I met him, and we started dating. And
pretty soon after a few years we got married. Had our children. Watch every one of our children
play ball. Watched all of our grandchildren play ball. And living out in Jamestown, so that’s—
They went to Hudsonville High School. All the kids. I’ve got a grandson that right now—He’s—
He just got married a year ago, but he calls me when there’s any change in the Tigers. “Oh,
Grandma. Have you heard this? Did you know they traded away this one?” And him and his
wife—I know they go to every game. And he used to take me to a lot of the opening day games.
Lagging grandma along with them. I was the slow one behind, but he would wait for me. He was
a wonderful kid. He still is.
Interviewer: “My father was a very good baseball player, and he taught me in Little
League to do something that most little kids didn’t know how to do, and that was to lift
your leg and actually throw it like a professional. So I became very good. Did your kids
know your passion and your love for baseball?” (38:14)
The older ones. I think they did. Now our oldest one—He played all through, and he was even
coach to one of my younger sons. And then he moved up. Got married and moved up to East
Jordan, and he was a coach of the eighth graders. And for quite a few years. And then now he
lives in Alaska, and he’s still coaching the grandkids.
Interviewer: “One of the things we found out from several of the girls that we interviewed
is they never even told their kids they played professional ball. Did you tell your kids early
on that you actually played?”
I don’t remember. I don’t remember. I do remember one time we were at a picnic, and the kids
were playing ball in the field. And the ball came to me. Well, it rolled over by me. And I picked
that ball up, and I threw it back to the field. And my kids was like, “Where did you learn to
throw a ball like that, Mom?” “Well, you know, I’ve got a story I’ve got to tell you.” And then
that’s when the kids learned that—Most of it. That I played ball. And then I started showing my
craft books to the kids and everything, and they were very interested. And you know. “Boy, I
didn’t know—” Some of them didn’t even know they had a girls’ team. “Baseball?” You know.
And softball like at school. “But baseball?” You know, and, “Like the Tigers?” And, “Baseball.”
You know. And, “What were they wearing?” “Well, these are the uniforms. Your mom would
have had one.” You know. “Oh, Mom. Would you have worn one?” I said, “You betcha. You
betcha. I would have worn one in a minute.” (40:09) Brings tears to my eyes. You don’t know
what number you might have had. You don’t know your uniform, you know. You knew the
colors and that sort of thing, but yeah. You don’t know if you would’ve played for a year or two
and been traded. Yeah, those are things that is a question in my mind for quite a few years, you
know.
Interviewer: “Yeah, but you got the opportunity to play with them, though, and that’s very
unique.”
Right, and that was—Oh, that was such a thrill then. And to be right—rubbing shoulders with
them in the buses and you know. “Oh, we’re going to get a hamburger.” Well, you know, when
you’re on a bus, you know. “I’m going to stop and get a hamburger.” “I’m going to get one, too.”
�O’Rear, Nancy
You know. “Hey, I’m one of you.” You know. And they didn’t treat me any different. They just
knew I was too young, but they just—They didn’t really treat me any different except when a
game came, I had to get off the field.
Interviewer: “Did you have any idea that this was something historic at the time?”
No, no.
Interviewer: “They didn’t either.”
No, no. Did you know that they moved from South Field out to Bigelow Field and then had a
fire? Had a big fire? And gosh. My dad then did take us out there because we couldn’t walk
there. And I got all the pictures of that and going over the gloves and everything, and it was so
sad. But then they got to come back to South Field, so that was really good for me. But I felt
sorry for the girls, you know. Their gloves, their shoes. Everything was there. Yep. (42:10)
Interviewer: “And you actually were there when they saw all that devastation?”
Oh, definitely. Yes. Yep. I helped them kind of go through the debris and stuff, you know, that
they had there, you know. And you couldn’t see the sizes of shoes, so you don’t—Or some
would recognize that— “That’s my shoe there, but I don’t know where the other one is.” Or
something like that, you know. And I tried what I could, and yes. Oh, yes. I was part of them. I
was them. I was them until that day. Until that day.
Interviewer: “When did you first realize that you were part of something really quite
extraordinary in American history?”
Well, I guess I didn’t. I didn’t know.
Interviewer: “What about when the movie came out?”
Oh, that was one thing. Gosh. I picked up my girlfriend in Grandville, and we went and seen
that. And oh, we couldn’t wait until that movie came out. And we went, and I picked her up.
Went down there. And I think since then I’ve seen it about twelve times.
Interviewer: “I’m up to about fifteen, so I’ve a couple on you.”
Yeah, and you’ve got some on me. Look at there. But yes, it was awesome. God, they got—
“They’re going to make a movie out of that. Oh my gosh.” You know. That was phenomenal.
That was great. I thought it was great.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie?”
I thought it was pretty good. Yeah, I thought it was—You know, it was good.
�O’Rear, Nancy
Interviewer: “Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Once we started—Once Dr. Smither and my—you
know, our team started working on the project, we realized how many historical
inaccuracies were in it, but it didn’t matter. I mean, they didn’t start off with hardball
and—But it still captured the spirit of it.”
Yes. Of the girls and of the playing and of the—Yes, yes. Yep. (44:07)
Interviewer: “I really enjoyed it, too.”
Yeah, I enjoyed it. I just wish my dad would have lived long enough to have seen it, but he
didn’t. But all my kids did, and I’m sure most of all the grandkids. Oh, yes.
Interviewer: “Did you find out at some point that they’d been finally inducted into the Hall
of Fame?”
I heard they were. Yep. I would like to go down there. I’ve never been there. Gosh, I’ve been to
Alaska, but I haven’t been down there.
Interviewer: “Oh, you should go.”
Oh, I want to go so bad. I’ve told my husband, and then when we start vacations, we kind of
forget that. And we shouldn’t. And we shouldn’t. I want to go down there so bad.
Interviewer: “Well, now you have this on tape. You can show it to him, and say, ‘Look.
Wait until the last part. I got something here at the last part I want you to see.’”
You’re right. “Fred, you can’t turn it off now. I want to go down there.”
Interviewer: “Yeah. Looking back on that experience—And I want you to know from me
personally that whether or not you played or not, the fact of the matter is you were there.”
I was there.
Interviewer: “You were there in a way that very few—I don’t even know of any other girl
that I know of that actually had that kind of experience. Looking back now, what was that
experience like to you?”
Oh, it was wonderful. It was wonderful. We talk a lot about at the house now and with the kids,
and now they’re asking questions, you know, and different things. And it was wonderful. It was
just wonderful. I just wish it could’ve went a couple more years, but it didn’t. I’m happy that
you’re doing this. I really am, and I’m so happy for that. That you’re doing it.
Interviewer: “Well, we’re happy that you’re doing it, too. It takes a lot, and I just want you
to know that I’ve interviewed several of the girls myself. And the things that they said, the
passion they had for the game, how much they loved it, and how much it affected it. And I
don’t know how you’re going to take this, but I can tell you from my own personal
�O’Rear, Nancy
experience of dealing with an interview—with Dolly Konwinski and all the different girls
that I interviewed—you have the same passion. You have the same, exact—Everything that
you’ve been talking about is very much the same as what I got from talking to the other
girls. Yeah. I think you were part of them.”
I was. Thank you. Thank you. I was.
Interviewer: “Thank you so much for coming in.”
Thank you so much. Grand Rapids Chicks.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_ORearN1915V
Title
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O'Rear, Nancy Kellogg (Interview transcript and video), 2016
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-21
Description
An account of the resource
Nancy O'Rear was born on January 7, 1938 in Grandville, Michigan. She grew up in Grandville and Grand Rapids, Michigan, and in 1951 she started following the Grand Rapids Chicks, an All-American Girls Professional Baseball League team. From the 1951 season through the 1954 season she practiced with the Chicks, befriended the players, and traveled with the team to away games in Michigan and Indiana. There were plans for Nancy to join the team once she graduated from high school, but with the team's disbanding in 1954 those plans were scrapped.
Creator
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O'Rear, Nancy Kellogg
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
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video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5752a0125b812e8ce999b065608493ea.m4v
f158fd332a1df13fd393b25e25800d9a
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d8abc97da500f74b820aa52075355b3a.pdf
12163b5a7930c412c229649813d6257b
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Jean Cione
Interviewed by: Gordon Olson September 27, 2009 Milwaukee, WI at the annual alumni
reunion of the All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer March 4, 2010
Interviewer: Give me a little bit of background if you will. When and where were
you born, your parents names and a little of that sort of information.”
I was born in Rockford, Illinois in 1928 and my parents were Vi and John and I went to
school at a county school for eight grades in Rockford, Illinois. :53
Interviewer: Were all eight grades together at county?”
Yes, oh no, no.
Interviewer: “Then it wasn’t a small country school?”
It wasn’t that small. And I was, as everybody was in those days, an outdoor “tomboy”.
Interviewer: “Which means that you started playing ball as a little kid?”
I started playing ball as a little kid. I played catch with the guy next door who turned out
to be a neurourgeon and my mother thought that that thing that was hanging from my
right hand was part of my anatomy because that’s how often it was there. 1:39
Interviewer: “That was your glove?”
That was my glove.
Interviewer: “And it went everywhere with you?”
It did
Interviewer: “You’re a natural left hander and they didn’t try to change you? A lot
of people our age, young people if they were left handed, and they would try to make
them switch to right handed writing and that sort of thing.”
Well, I’m kind of ambidextrous. I batted right, I threw left, I write right, I iron both
ways, whatever’s handy really. 2:13
Interviewer: “If you’re going to throw, it’s better to throw left handed because
there’s more demand for left handed pitchers.”
There are fewer of us; I guess that’s probably why.
Interviewer: “what are your recollections, before there was a league, of playing
ball? Where did you play and how did you develop as a ball player?”
1
�Well, I played neighborhood ball with the boys. When I was in the eighth grade I played
first base on the boys softball team and since it was a county school we competed with
other county schools and I earned a letter at that county school. I of course went to junior
high school in the city and there was no opportunity for women back then and so I played
in an industrial team league and on industrial league teams. Now, Rockford, Illinois was
the largest machine tool center in the world and the town was full of factories of all kinds.
3:33 They made huge machines and sent them overseas and so forth. Well, each of
those industrial corporations had a men’s baseball team and a women’s softball team.
This was a large city. The second largest city in Illinois at that time and so I played then
in the industrial teams. 4:03
Interviewer: “So there were sports opportunities for women in Rockford?”
There were, definitely. Rockford had a wonderfully developed park system, the
University of Illinois at Champaign Urbana came up and set it up and Rockford was half
Swede and half Canadian with a few Polish and Irish thrown in there, but they put their
money in their city, so there were really opportunities for children. 4:34
Interviewer: “You said that you got a letter for playing on the eighth grade team at
the county school. How unusual was it for girls to be on the school team like that?”
Well, at the luncheon today, they talked about the first and I was the first.
Interviewer: “That makes it unusual. In high school were there any sports you
could play in high school?”
They called it GAA, girls athletic association and we played among ourselves and if we
did have opportunities to play with girls from other schools, with mitts. 5:24
Interviewer: “That’s right, there was a sense that girls shouldn’t be—not only that
girls weren’t so competitive, but they shouldn’t be so competitive.”
Absolutely, and in those days girls were short and supposed to be short as opposed to
now, they step out and they are tall. 5:50
Interviewer: “They’ve been feeding them real well lately. You were playing in the
industrial league when you learned about the opportunity to play women’s
baseball?”
Well, I was born and went to public school in Rockford, Illinois and the “Rockford
Peaches” came into Rockford, Illinois and established Rockford as their home team in
1943 and I was fifteen at the time. 6:19
Interviewer: “Still in high school?”
Yes, still in high school and my dad of course, who was my very best friend, took me to
the ball games and I would say, “Dad, I’m going to play some day”.
2
�Interviewer: “Had he supported you as a ball player? Did you learn any baseball
from him?”
No.
Interviewer: “He was just a fan?”
Yes, he was just a fan. I didn’t learn it from him, but yes, he supported me and my
mother supported me too because it was two against one, my dad and I.
Interviewer: “She might as well go along with it.”
Yes, she might as well go along with it.
Interviewer: “Are there other brothers and sisters in your family?”
I do have a sister, but she’s fourteen years younger. After they had me they had to wait a
long time before having another one. 7:14
Interviewer: “Even if she had been a ball player there wouldn’t have been an
opportunity like you had for her would there?”
No there wasn’t, and we were very, very fortunate. We were just lucky.
Interviewer: “So, the Rockford Peaches come to town and you see some games and
you decide, “I’m going to do that”. How did you go about accomplishing that?”
7:37
Well, they held a tryout a couple of years later and I was seventeen at that time and Max
Carey came into town and he held a tryout and I was invited to spring training. I could
throw, I could hit, I could run. The finer points of the game probably weren’t very
evident, but he saw something there that might be developed.
Interviewer: “At that point did you have a sense of yourself as a pitcher at all yet?”
No.
Interviewer: “That’s coming yet. When you first learned of it—Max Carey comes
to town—did you have an understanding of why they were doing it? You knew
there was a war going on, but did you connect the women of the baseball with the
war or anything like that?” 8:36
No.
Interviewer: “That’s going to come, along with other things. So the tryout is
complete and he likes what he sees, then what happens?”
I went to spring training, it was held in Chicago, we stayed at the Allerton Hotel and
worked out in one of the big Chicago parks and I made the cut. Probably I made the cut
and went with the Rockford team because I was a Rockford girl and there’s some draw in
terms of people coming to the ball game to see me. I was very, very fortunate to play
under the manager who I consider the best manager who ever managed in the league, Bill
Allington from Van Nuys, California and he loved the game you could tell and he was a
3
�good manager. 9:43 All of us bench sitters and rookies had the opportunity to work out
every day we were home. The regulars didn’t because we played every day on a ten
game schedule. From him I learned how to fly, the finer points of the strategy of the
game. He sat us next to him on the bench and made sure we understood the game, all the
cutoff plays, all the finer points of the game so, I was able to survive. 10:28
Interviewer: “You had time to do hitting every day?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “At what point does pitching become part of baseball?”
Well, the league was managed more as a league opposed to individual teams and they
realized that they had to keep competition close in order to make it interesting for the
public so, they had what they called an allocation system and each team could protect x
number of players and the rest of us were put into a pool and I went to Peoria and was
their regular first baseman for a year. They didn’t protect me; they threw me into the
pool “Pop Murphy” from Racine picked me up. 11:43 We had spring training in
Havana Cuba that year and he picked me up and we toured up through Florida along the
Atlantic coast with those particular teams all the way up and he worked with me because
he thought maybe I could pitch—he saw something.
Interviewer: “He saw a fastball I bet.”
I don’t know what he saw, but I appreciated him very much. Those were exhibition game
with two teams would travel up together.
Interviewer: “Do you remember what the other team was?”
No I don’t. I remember going into my first exhibition ball game and striking out Jo
Leonard, who became a very good friend of mine and who I played with much later on,
but I pitched, he threw me in the games, all the way up to Racine and the season started.
12:56 Rockford had some injuries as they came up through their particular area where
they toured and Bill—Racine had won the championship the year before and Bill
Allington asked the league if he could get some help until his pitching crew got back into
physical shape and could play again, so Murphy thought that was a good idea and they
could make mistakes on Bill’s team, so I went to Rockford and I didn’t make too many
mistakes and Murphy wanted me back and I guess there was quite a discussion over a
period of time and in order to keep both managers happy they gave me to Kenosha.
13:52 I was with Kenosha for the rest of my career.
Interviewer: “You stayed in the same general vicinity, but you didn’t get to go
home again.”
No.
Interviewer: “I’ve got a couple questions I want to ask you and it suddenly
occurred to me, I haven’t asked this of other. The make-up of the team that you
4
�play on—you said he needed pitching, how many, do you remember how many were
on the team? There were some bench sitters.”
Yes there were. They carried at least four or five pitchers and nine and five is fourteen
and I think the rosters were seventeen or eighteen players. 14:36
Interviewer: “That’s not many players, particularly if you’re playing every day and
somebody is going to be a little “gimpy” once in a while. That’s not a “deep bench”
as they say.”
That’s probably why Bill took the rookies and those that sat on the bench and worked
with them because we had to go in at times.
Interviewer: “You had to be ready or about as ready as he could get you. The other
thing I wanted to back up to—you said you went to Cuba and came back; do you
have recollection of that time in Cuba and spring training in Cuba?” 15:13
I certainly do.
Interviewer: “Share them with me please.”
There was music twenty-four hours a day in Cuba and it was just wonderful. Music is
something that’s very important to me and I loved it. We were taken to eat at one of the
hotels all the time and the food was terrible, so most of us ate at “Sloppy Joe’s”, the bar
between our hotel and the hotel where they fed us.
Interviewer: “We shouldn’t assume you were in Havana, rather than assuming, the
people listening later will know that the spring training took place in Havana. All
the teams were there?” 15:59
All the teams were there, yes they were. We trained at the University of Havana’s
facilities, huge facilities.
Interviewer: “The Cubans love their baseball.”
Yes they do and they came out in great numbers for the exhibition games and they were
around to watch us train also.
Interviewer: “Did they seem to appreciate the level of the baseball that you
played?”
Yes they did, we heard nothing negative and so you assumed that they accepted you.
Interviewer: “I have also been told that the Cuban men were particularly
impressed by the fact that these were young women out there playing. Is there any
truth to that?” 16:44
Yes they were. Of course the Cuban men are very sexy, very sexy, you would have to
just really be careful.
5
�Interviewer: “I’ve seen a couple of great pictures of a group watching practice. A
group of young men up in the stands watching practice and waiting, I think, for the
first moment that practice was over, so they could get better acquainted.”
They were and after practice we generally showered—we went back to the hotel and
showered and changed clothes and we hired a taxi and he would come and pick us up and
take us all over Havana and make sure if we got thirsty we would have a “cervesa” (for
the non Spanish speakers, “a beer”) and we saw a tremendous amount of the poor and the
rich in Cuba. 17:56
Interviewer: “This is out of context with the story of your baseball career, but it’s
an interesting topic. Your horizons were significantly broadened by the travel
opportunities that came with being a baseball player.”
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Not only just in terms of seeing places, but seeing other people and
other culture and maybe parts of –the poor as well as those better off and just a
better understanding of humanity in a sense.”
That’s right and appreciated it.
Interviewer: “It carried over later in your life?”
It did, I think it did.
Interviewer: “We may get back to that later and think about that a little bit more,
so this is 1947 and you could throw hard, but the world is full of people who can
throw hard, but they can’t hit what they’re throwing at.” 19:02
I have a funny story to tell you about that. Inez Voyce, she was a left-handed first
baseman.
Interviewer: “For the Grand Rapids “Chicks” among others.”
And South Bend, the South Bend “Blue Sox” and somehow or other she trained, she was
trained with us at our particular area of the ball park and Bill Allington came over to us,
the two of us, and he said, “you two, I want you to go out there in left field and play catch
until you can throw the ball where you’re aiming, you just get out there and work on it”,
and I never ever forgot that. Inez and I share that story together. 20:00
Interviewer: “And it worked.”
It worked, yes.
Interviewer: “Before we move on from Bill Allington, if someone were to say to you,
“I want a short capsule description of him and his personality, behavior--why was
he so good?”
6
�I can only give you from my perspective. He was so good number one, because he really
cared for the game. He instituted many plays that often other teams didn’t use, for
instance, just hitting the ball on the ground and the runner on first base going from first to
third, you know, those kinds of things. That’s what made him good and he cared and I
just really liked him. 21:10
Interviewer: “Big man, small man?”
Very wiry and medium height.
Interviewer: “Loud, quiet, soft spoken?”
It depended on whom he was talking to and what he was saying. I can’t say he was loud
or gregarious, he wasn’t, he tended to business and I liked that because that’s the way I
was brought up. Probably brought up too much that way, really focused on what I was
doing and he was really focused on what he was doing and he expected you to function
that way and that’s why I think he was good. 21:59
Interviewer: “Now, do you have a recollection of the first league game you pitched
in? You were pitching in these exhibition games up north.”
That’s very interesting--you know I don’t, I do not, I don’t remember the first league
game I pitched in.
Interviewer: “Are there other games that stand out over time? Some play off
games?”
My no hit no run games stand out in my mind.
Interviewer: “Gee, I wonder why that is?”
A twelve inning duel with Ziggy, Alma Zeigler from Grand Rapids. I don’t know why
they stand out that way.
Interviewer: “Let’s talk about those no hitters. You had two no hitters in a very
short period of time.”
That must have been a good year. 22:50
Interviewer: “Yes, I guess, so there’s a superstition in baseball that you don’t talk
to the pitcher until they give up a hit. If they get deep into a game you leave them
alone and no one mentions the fact that there are no hits. Did the women follow that
same kind of superstition?”
I think so because I don’t remember discussing it or anybody saying anything about it.
Interviewer: “Did you have a notion what you were doing?” 23:15
Yes.
7
�Interviewer: “Any moments in that game that stand out where they came close to
getting a hit?”
No moments stand out, sorry.
Interviewer: “Ok, that’s ok, sometimes you’re so lost in the next batter you’re not
thinking about anything else. There was two of them up, roughly that and you have
to feel pretty good about yourself at that point, you’ve got this pitching thing figured
out.
I think it was. Well, I’ll tell you something, if you didn’t feel good about yourself, you
didn’t last in that league.
Interviewer: “Do you want to expand on that a little bit?” 23:57
Well, you had to have confidence, you had to think that every time you walked out on
that mound, you walked out on that mound for one purpose and it was to win that ball
game, and if you didn’t have that confidence—athletes cannot perform unless they have
that confidence and some people call it cockiness and whatever it is, if somebody asks
you, “are you good”, you say, “you betch ya”.
Interviewer: “I can strike you out. Describe yourself as a pitcher would you?
What did you throw? What were your strengths and if there was a weakness, what
was it?” 24:46
I was primarily a power pitcher. I developed a cross fire where I stepped to first base and
brought it in right under your ribs. I was not afraid to work the inside of the plate. I had
a changeup and later in years, I developed a two fingered knuckle curve and obviously
that’s a ball that’s thrown with a spin on it and when it loses enough momentum, it falls
off and I was left handed and that was good for pitching against some of the very, very
good left handed hitters. 25:41
Interviewer: “A cross fire’s a pretty effective pitch against some of them too.”
We had –I do remember this—In one of the games I pitched in Kenosha, an Umpire, his
name was Remo, his last name, was behind the plate and he caught every one of those
cross fires and called them strikes and sometimes that’s hard for an Umpire because it
catches the front of the plate and by the time it reaches the back of the plate it’s in the
sand and that probably was very important to my further development as a pitcher. 26:26
Interviewer: “It gave you confidence to keep throwing. It’s a pitch—you say it
starts out from the first base side and if it’s a left handed hitter their tendency is to
lean back or away from it and a right handed hitter, their tendency is to think it’s
coming inside at them and you’re right, if you throw it right it comes right across
the front left hand corner of the plate and it’s still a strike, but the catcher is
reaching beyond the strike zone to pick it up and they will miss it.” 26:47
8
�They will because it’s very easy to miss. I had some Umpires that did miss them and I
didn’t like it.
Interviewer: “Did you ever get in an argument with an Umpire?”
Oh sure.
Interviewer: “Ever get thrown out?”
No, not that big of an argument. 27:16
Interviewer: “What was the quality of the umpiring in your mind? Your standing
up—pitchers have a particular perspective on umpiring, that’s for sure, how would
you assess the umpiring in the games you played in the league as you saw it?”
I think it was very good. I think it was very high quality. They’re going to miss some
stuff, but we didn’t let them know that we thought that they were going to miss some
stuff, they were going to, but I think the quality of the umpiring was excellent. 27:54
Interviewer: “Which is probably not a bad idea—attitude for a pitcher to have
going out there. Think of the Umpire as your friend and if they sensed that at all,
they just might become your friend. As a hitter I always felt that way. Any teams
that you felt a special rivalry with at all?”
Well of course I always felt the rivalry of Rockford. I welcomed going into Rockford
and beating them and they were very, very good, very good. I played with Rockford my
last year in the league and many of them became very close friends, but that was the team
that I welcomed pitching and playing against. 28:53
Interviewer: “It makes sense, if you can’t play with them then the best thing you
can do is to go in and beat them.”
That’s right, that’s right.
Interviewer: “Talk to me, if you will, a little bit about travel. How you go t around,
the teams were fairly close together, but you still had to get from one town to
another on short notice sometimes.”
In 1945, when I played with Rockford, we traveled by train, the Illinois Central out of
Rockford into Chicago and then changed trains to other locations; New York Central up
into Michigan and that was wonderful. Travel by train was just super. Well, the league
figured out that if they had their own buses it would be cheaper and more efficient. If we
had a trip from Kenosha, Wisconsin to Grand Rapids, that’s a long trip and we would
leave after the ball game and stop somewhere and have dinner before we left Kenosha
and then you traveled all night. 30:12 It was much more efficient for the league to go by
bus travel. Big buses and they were comfortable.
Interviewer: “No sleeping berths though on a bus.”
No sleeping berths.
9
�Interviewer: “You had to figure out your own way to get comfortable.”
You just had to kick back and do what you could.
Interviewer: “Now, when you got into—as a visitor coming into a town, you’re in
that town for three or four games, something like that, did you stay in hotels, did
you stay in homes?” 30:52
We stayed in hotels and we stayed in the best hotel in that town, yes we did.
Interviewer: “At that point the league took care of you in that regard.”
They absolutely did. We stayed in the VanOrmin in Fort Wayne and the Pere Marquette
in Peoria, good hotels.
Interviewer: “They probably put you in the Pantlind in Grand Rapids or I would
have to think about where else in Grand Rapids you might have stayed at, there
were a couple big hotels.
I know it was right downtown. 31:26
Interviewer: “Probably the Pantlind. Did the teams you played on get to the
playoffs?”
Once, and it was against Rockford and it was two out of three I believe.
Interviewer: “And this was Racine against Rockford?”
Kenosha, Kenosha against Rockford and they beat us and we were done.
Interviewer: “Did you get to pitch in the playoffs?”
I played first base in that playoff, you know I could hit a little bit and I often played first
base or one of the outfield positions. I took my turn every third or fourth day. 32:20
Interviewer: “Yeah, with the short roster you had, a lot of them played as position
players as well. Ziggy for example, was both a pitcher and a—second baseman,
right and you and a lot of others the same way, if you could hit a little bit.”
You had to be able to hit.
Interviewer: “What was the quality of the hitting in the league? Was it more of a
pitcher’s league or a hitter’s league?”
I think it’s very, very similar to major league baseball now, I really do. It’s not like
softball, which is a pitcher’s game; it was probably pretty well balanced.
Interviewer: ”You saw some scoring.” 33:16
Right, we saw some scoring and our batting champions were hitting up into the mid three
hundreds, so it was probably a pretty balanced game.
10
�Interviewer: “You played through some rules and equipment changes. The base
length changed didn’t it at some point? The ball changed in size, did you like the
changes as they occurred?”
Yes, I did.
Interviewer: “Let’s talk a little more, you tell me what kinds of changes occurred.”
33:58
Of course the pitching distance changed. The change when we went away from strictly
softball pitching and it went to pitching where the hand had to be below the wrist, then it
had to be below the elbow and then it had to be below the shoulder and right over the top.
As that pitching changed and structure changed, the ball got smaller and smaller and of
course as pitchers, we liked that. The bases got longer, the game got more like baseball
and less like softball. 35:00 Much more in the way of double plays, relays from the
outfield to nail them at home and that kind of thing. As the ball got smaller, the game got
faster; I guess that’s what happened.
Interviewer: “The skill level adjusted?”
Yes, it did.
Interviewer: “And there was some training and teaching going on? Bill Allington
wasn’t the only one, or Allington I should say, wasn’t the only one teaching?”
There were many that didn’t.
Interviewer: “True” 35:29
There were many that didn’t, yes.
Interviewer: “ I think Woody English comes to mind, who a lot of the players liked,
as someone who paid attention and took his job seriously is maybe the fair way to
put it.”
Yes he did. The game, I think, was more interesting for the spectators as the bases
lengthened and as the ball got smaller.
Interviewer: “You played then from your first year, which was 1945, until 1954,
basically the end of the league. What are your perspectives on that period when it
went into decline and at some point you could see it coming. What happened? Tell
me about it.” 36:21
You could see it coming. Many of the teams board of directors did what they could to
cut expenses, as tight as they could, we traveled in cars, which was very poor, that was in
the last year, next to the last year.
Interviewer: “Packed tightly in cars or a group of cars?”
It was not a good thing. Not a good thing for the players and for the league in particular.
You could see the decline, your salaries didn’t go down, your meal money didn’t go
11
�down, but you could see it particularly in the travel. The fields were still kept up and
they were beautiful fields. 37:19
Interviewer: “The fields were the responsibility of the local communities, at least in
some cases the parks department had some role in maintaining the fields.”
Well, any team I played on, we had a—I’m thinking golf, a greens keeper.
Interviewer: “Groundskeeper?”
Yes, a groundskeeper who took care of the field and we knew him.
Interviewer: “He was with the team?”
Yes, and the teams were tailored, just like the major league fields now, the fields were
tailored to the team. For instance, Jean Fout, whom I consider to be the best overhand
pitcher in the league, she came from tight from over the top and they built the mound up
for her. 38:14
Interviewer: “So she was even taller out there. Of course, if you were an overhand
pitcher and pitching there, you at least had that same mound to pitch from.”
Oh yes you did, that’s true.
Interviewer: “Did some of the teams water down the area in front of home plate a
little bit?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Let the grass grow a little longer in the infield?”
Yes they did.
Interviewer: “That’s been going on for a long time hasn’t it?”
Yes it has and we took advantage of that. The grounds keeper would work with the
manager and the fields were tailored to the home teams strengths and weaknesses. 38:52
Interviewer: “I said earlier that one of the people I talked to about pitching
suggested that there were things done to the baseball. What she talked about was
an accusation of one team put the balls in the refrigerator before that game just to
make them a little deader. Did you ever hear of such a thing?”
No, (laughingly), never heard of it.
Interviewer: “Did you ever hear of any pitchers that would doctor the ball a little
bit?”
No. 39:28
Interviewer: “Certainly men were accused of such things.”
I know. A friend of mine, who is an athletic director at one of the universities in the
west, said that in one of their publications there was an article by an Umpire and his name
12
�was Petrangeli, and he said that he threw me out of a game for throwing a spit ball and I
said, “that’s ridiculous, he must not have had too much to say and he had to pull on
something”, but he was a Kenosha Umpire and he umpired a lot of my games, but I was
never thrown out. 40:16 Not even for arguing.
Interviewer: “It’s a fine line sometimes to how far you can go and what you can say
and what they’ll listen to and tolerate and what they won’t.”
That’s right. There was not a whole lot of foul language in the girls league.
Interviewer: “I hope not. There were some women who did get tossed, had pretty
fiery tempers.”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “I can’t think of her name all of a sudden, she played for Grand
Rapids and all I can think of her is the blonde from Arizona.”
California and she’s gone now—it will come to me. 41:06
Interviewer: “It won’t come to me right now either.”
She was from California and she’s gone now, she died of cancer. She was very good, but
she was fiery and so was Faye Dancer, from California.
Interviewer: “Not afraid of any Umpire.”
Interviewer: “The league is coming to an end and travel is pretty miserable, pay
didn’t go up—to what do you contribute that decline in revenue that they were
grappling with? That means fewer fans, what was happening to cause that?”
I think it was a combination of things. The war was over, the entertainment was
available and the entertainment dollar was spread around. You could now go into
Chicago and see the Sox or Cubs play and the pros that played were retiring and they
were bringing in top-notch softball players and they couldn’t adapt fast enough to the
game. And there were mental errors and people don’t pay to see that. It was really a
combination of things. 42:35
Interviewer: “If it’s sloppy they don’t like it. Did television play any role?”
It was barely started because I remember—I was going to undergraduate school in the off
season and I remember grappling with either working on what I should be working on or
watching the television, but I remember a little tiny screen. I don’t think television was a
factor. 43:10
Interviewer: “Ultimately television played a role in the decline of the minor leagues
in men’s professional baseball, but it was a little later. Unless you’ve got something
more you’d like to say about your career that I haven’t thought to ask you about,
I’d like to move over and talk about your post baseball career a little bit. What did
you do after baseball?” 43:37
13
�Well, during the off-season I went to undergraduate school at Eastern Michigan
University, Ypsilanti, Michigan, and seven miles from Ann Arbor, that big school.
Interviewer: “How did you pick Eastern Michigan, you’re over here in
Wisconsin?”
Well, Eastern Michigan was ranked the third best women’s physical education school in
the country and that was my field of study. I went to Eastern Michigan and got my
Bachelors degree and began teaching in the off-season in the public schools. I taught ten
years in the public schools. I taught in Trenton, Michigan for four years, that was my
first job. I taught for four years in Rockford, Illinois schools, West Rockford, Illinois.
Then I decided after eight years that I better get my Masters, so I went down to the
University of Illinois on a graduate assistantship and got my Masters degree and came
back and was a department head in a new school in Rockford and then I got a cal from
my Alma Mater, Eastern Michigan University, to please join them on their staff and there
is no greater thrill than being asked to join the staff of your undergraduate school. 45:33
Interviewer: “Those who taught you, and you stayed there.”
I stayed there twenty-nine years. I started out teaching theory of team sports, individual
sports, all of those and then I did some further work at the University of Michigan, which
was only seven miles from me and I did some further work in Scientific Foundations of
Physical Education and ended up teaching Scientific Foundations to sports medicine
people. Anatomy, Physiology, Biology Etc. and that’s where I finished my career. 46:18
I loved every bit of it. I loved the public schools, the team sports and the major courses
that I taught in the Scientific Foundations. I kept me from being bored.
Interviewer: “Did someone particularly encourage you to go college? Was that
your own decision?”
It was my own decision, my mother, like all good mothers, wanted me to stay home and
get married so she could have some grand kids and she said, “Well, if you want to go to
school, you can go to Rockford to college”. There was no physical education curriculum
offered there, but she didn’t understand that, so I had to go to school against their wishes.
47:09 When they found out that I was serious, then they accepted the fact that I was
away from home going to school.
Interviewer: “You had been away from home already.”
That was different.
Interviewer: “Did you continue in team sports as a player for a time or involved in
team sports after pro baseball?”
14
�I played one year of slow pitch and it was on a lark. Some of the professors at my
university and some of them at the University of Michigan decided we would get a team
together and we would do some slow pitch and it was fun.
Interviewer: “The strength of it is that it’s a team sport, the weakness is that it’s not
like baseball or even softball, it’s a different game. Let me now move to the final
portion of all this and I’d like you to reflect on it. It has to do in a sense, the
rediscovery of the All American Girls Baseball League, because I suspect you too
went through that period—your friends, you may have told them your baseball
experiences, but few people knew you were a professional baseball player, I’m
guessing. 48:44
Been there, done that and never talked about it. Who would have understood anyhow?
Interviewer: “A few, but not a whole lot, you’re right. All of a sudden though come
this movie and a national awareness that there was this unique group of women and
that they played baseball professionally for several years and they’re still around.
They discovered you at some point again and I bet you remember when that
occurred?” 49:19
Well yes, the Ann Arbor paper wanted to run an article on you and the professors at the
men’s club wanted you to come and talk to them about your baseball career etc., so the
opportunities were many, yes.
Interviewer: “Did the young women that were in your classes want to talk about it
too and get to know you a little more because of that?”
No, I can’t say they did. I can’t say that they did, I’m sure that they respected it. I can
remember them coming to that one year when we played slow pitch, coming to the games
and watching and it always tickled me that I was able to do something that I had taught
them how to do in the team sports class like catch the runner off second base and run at
him and freeze him and then make the throw and I liked that because it helped me to
realize that they understood that I do know what I’m talking about. 50:49
Interviewer: “Darn tootin’ you did. Reflect a little on the role that you perhaps
didn’t see yourself playing at all, but as a pioneer really in women in sports and in
some ways even in the larger movement toward feminism and more roles for women
in our society, you are part of that. Do you think about that, you must?”
I didn’t think about it at the time. Didn’t think about it at all. I supported and still
support the feminist movement. When Billie Jean King played Bobby Riggs, we all got
together and watched it together and the fact that P.K Wrigley insisted that the spectators
knew that those were women out there playing the game by the way they acted, by the
uniforms, how they dressed off the field, made me realize that that was a very important
part of women in sports. 52:30
15
�Interviewer: “That’s an interesting perspective I hadn’t thought of. I always
judged him more harshly for that because I thought he was, you know, because I
thought he was trying to feminize, or overly feminize and take advantage of the fact
and your argument would be quite the contrary. He wanted to make sure—he was
making sure that people knew that these were women. He was very insightful.
He was very, very perceptive—that he was and I think it was important. There was a
professional softball league in Chicago at that time and they dressed in I don’t know what
they dressed in—shorts or whatever. 53:20
Interviewer: “Some of them dressed in trousers almost or long pants.”
They didn’t draw the way we drew. We were entertainment for the industrial workers. It
was a family kind of audience—kids, women and men.
Interviewer: “Do you still hear from fans?”
No.
Interviewer: “You get requests for autographs though?”
Yes, many, many.
Interviewer: “Do you ever get tired of people asking for your autograph or wanting
to talk about what you did?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Do you feel an obligation to keep doing it regardless?” 54:07
Sure, absolutely, I don’t have any more baseball cards, they’re all gone and I had
hundreds and I have to say to them, “I’m sorry I don’t have anymore”, and you can’t get
them either.
Interviewer: “Somebody has got to do a reprint.”
Well they did one some time ago.
Interviewer: “Those of you watching, what have I left out, anything? That was an
easy interview. All we had to do was sit and have a conversation. You saw the
movie when it came out and you have probably seen it more than once since.
What’s your reaction?” 55:03
It was fun and it was a fun movie. I can see why people would enjoy seeing it. The
baseball portion of it was pretty accurate and of course they had to do some Hollywood
tinkering a bit. We did not live all together in our home city. The manager did not come
into the women’s dressing room under any circumstances, but those two things made the
movie very, very entertaining for the average person that would go to a movie. 55:43 It
was fun.
Interviewer: “They did have classes for some of the women to—“
The first year, only the first year.
16
�Interviewer: “There had to be some resistance in the—not everyone—how did they
respond to the fact that they were going to charm school?”
I don’t know, but I can imagine—it was a big joke, that’s how they responded.
Interviewer: “That’s right, you weren’t there because you came two years later and
that would be my guess. It was a man’s idea, I think. to have these classes anyway
and that tells you something about it. 56:25
But that reinforces the idea that P.K Wrigley knew that the aura that the players had to
give off, needed to be a feminine aura or it wasn’t going to go.
Interviewer: “I do appreciate your perspective that it helped women in sports.
That he drew attention to the fact that these were women playing that well and
doing that well. That’s a good insight and I appreciate that.” 57:09
Sometimes I get, along with the request to sign cards etc., questions that they want
answered and one of the is, ”did the men and boys laugh at you in the stands and did they
make it hard for you?” For some reason or other, they thought that they might.
Interviewer: “Did they?”
No, not at all.
Interviewer: “Thank you, thank you very much.”
Thank you for asking me.
17
�
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
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RHC-58_JCione
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Cione, Jean (Interview transcript and video), 2009
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Cione, Jean
Description
An account of the resource
Jean Cione was born in Rockford, Illinois in 1928. She grew up in the Rockford area and played softball with the neighborhood boys and then also played with the local industrial teams. When the Rockford Peaches made Rockford their headquarters, Cione tried out for the team and at age 15 joined the ranks of the Rockford Peaches in 1945 as a reserve rookie first baseman. In 1946, she was traded to the Peoria Red Wings and played first baseman for them but was then traded to the Kenosha Comets in 1947. She remained with the Kenosha Comets from 1947 to 1953 and played sometimes as a left-handed pitcher, first baseman, or outfield. Consequently, the Comets franchise disbanded in 1954 and she was traded back to the Rockford Peaches where she finished out when the All American Girls Baseball League was disbanded.
Contributor
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Olson, Gordon (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-26
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f44428bdbaf2a1931243b4780badf5ab.m4v
ae6f957fd9952fea53c6dce45da76e29
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/deed70befdf3b38b9a3fc33495bf3e10.pdf
84678250c84c2a830a03bdffb992b967
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Sue Kidd
Length of Interview: (00:30:31)
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27,
2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, June 22, 2010
Born: Arkansas
Interviewer: “Can you begin by telling us a little bit about your own background?”
I was born to Marvin and Judith Kidd in 1933 and I was the fifth of six children, three
boys and three girls. We lived on a farm at that time, a little place out in the country, and
about the only recreation outside of work was playing ball, baseball. My dad was a great
baseball player and my two older brothers and as I came along, I started playing also.
Any free moment I had, we were playing ball.
Interviewer: “Did your father have any professional or semi-professional
experience?”
He tried out, as a fairly young man, with the St. Louis Cardinals and had not been cut, but
since he had a wife and two daughters at home already, he got homesick and decided he
would rather be at home with his family and farm even though he loved baseball. 1:11
Interviewer: “When you were growing up and you were playing ball, were there a
lot of girls playing ball?”
No, I don’t know of any girls that played ball at all except myself. I mean they played
basketball, but not baseball. There were no softball teams in that area.
Interviewer: “Did you eventually play other sports too?”
Yes, basketball and of course with the boys I played football, but just for fun. The coach
would have liked to have me play football, but mother was against that.
Interviewer: “In general how did people in the community and your family respond
to your playing all these sports?”
They just thought it was great and of course dad always had to show me off, throwing the
ball to any stranger that came around and were interested and let me play with the men
against the teams that were easier to beat I’ll say, he let me play. 2:06
1
�Interviewer: “Now how was it that you wound up becoming a professional ball
player?”
Well, I’ll try to make it short, but in school the guidance councilor was trying to get me
interested in college courses and I always told her that I was going to play professional
ball and she said, “but Sue, girls don’t play professional baseball”, and I said, “I don’t
care”, and I kind of had the attitude that the good lord would see to that and one day in
the spring of 1949, probably March, she came down and got me out of class and showed
me a magazine. It was a Look or Life magazine, I can’t remember just which one, to
show me about this league in the Midwest, so she quit trying to talk me into going to
college. In June, Manis professional baseball scout, that my dad sent my older brothers
to baseball school and would have sent me, but they had no facilities for girls. 3:06 He
came up to make sure my dad took me to Little Rock, which is seventy-five miles south,
to this game that these two girls teams were going to be playing because he thought I
should tryout, so that’s where we went. I tried out before the game one afternoon, they
wanted to sign me to a contract and send me home to leave with them after the game the
next day, so we drove home, mother washed and ironed all night, found a suitcase to pack
my luggage in, clothes in, and I had to get back to Little Rock to go through the vital
statistics to get my birth certificate and luckily one of the home boys worked there and
was kind of a supervisor in some department and he walked me through and he could
vouch to when I was born because he lived in that community, so I was able to get it in
one day. 4:05
Interviewer: “You didn’t actually have a birth certificate, one the doctor made for
you?”
No, I didn’t have a Social Security number until they were ready to pay me the first
check, we were in Oklahoma somewhere and Lenny Zintak, the manager and one of the
chaperones took me to someplace, I don’t know where it was, and I got a Social Security
card.
Interviewer: “When you were doing the tryout, were there a lot of other girls trying
out or just a few of you?”
I don’t really remember anybody else except myself that particular night.
Interviewer: “How did they actually do the try out? Did they just put you up on
the mound and say pitch?”
No, they warmed me up on the side with a catcher, in fact I think it was Wimp
Baumgartner and she was quite excited that I could throw the ball, throw a curve and then
they let me tryout on the mound a little bit and hit a few balls and that was—they were
ready to sign me. 4:59
Interviewer: “Some of the other players have told me that it was not all that
common to pick up or add players in the middle of a barnstorming tour. Basically
2
�you have these two teams that are traveling around, just playing all different places
and then they give tryouts, but you tried out and you got in there, so you must have
been pretty good.”
Everybody thought I was and I guess I had them fooled.
Interviewer: “Once you signed up and joined the team, how old were you?”
Fifteen. 5:26
Interviewer: “How did they take care of a fifteen year old girl?”
Well, there were other fairly young ones and there were older ones. Of course we had
chaperones and we had a terrific bus driver that was like a grandfather to us, and they
assured my folks that I would be taken care of, I’d be supervised, and I was. I’m going to
get off on a tangent now, but in the summertime my mother usually just cut my hair like I
had a bowl on my head because I either played ball and had a ball cap on or I was
swimming in the creek or horseback riding, so she didn’t try to curl it, so the first week
on the tour some of the older ones said, “Sue, we’re going to take you to the beauty shop
and get your hair curled”. I mean it was stuff like that and they helped me buy other
clothes because I didn’t even have a lot of dresses and you really needed skirts and
blouses to be able to change back and forth in. You could ride on the bus in blue jeans or
shorts, but if you got off, you had to put on a skirt and I mean even at midnight. 6:33
Interviewer: “When the league started there were an awful lot of rules about
conduct and dress and all of this. Were all of those still in place when you joined?”
Not as many, you didn’t have to practice walking with a book on your head and stuff, but
as far as the dress and being at curfew and stuff like that, drinking and smoking in public
and stuff, they were pretty much in—but of course, we sneaked around and smoked,
some of us.
Interviewer: “Alright, where were the people on your team from? From all over
the place?”
Yes sir, all over and on the tour team I know we had them from the east coast. I don’t
remember any people off hand from California. Most of them were already good enough
to be in the league and of course these traveling teams were sort of like “rookies” teams
for practice and sometimes they would even call one up off of the tour when there were
injuries. 7:28 I remember Wimp Baumgartner, she was catcher, and Peoria’s catcher got
hurt and she was shipped up to catch the rest of the season. Things like that did happen.
Interviewer: “On this tour how far did you go or how far off did you range while
you were going around?”
Well, after they picked me up they traveled around to twenty-five different states. We
went on—when they picked me up we went to New Orleans and circled back through
3
�Hot Springs and out through Texas, Oklahoma and I don’t know whether we came back
through—it seemed like we went to southern Arkansas and went down to as far as
Pensacola, Florida and wandered up the east coast to Virginia and some of those places
and clear up into New Jersey and around in that area and finished the tour in West
Virginia, Labor Day week-end. 8:23
Interviewer: “In the process do you actually—did you play in New York or go in
New York City?”
We got to go to the Yankee Stadium and see a couple of innings of games before we went
to play in New Jersey and what I remember, now you have got to figure me a little
country girl and we’re out here in New York, never been there, never been to that large a
city, and we had a rained out night or something and one of the older ladies had been to
New York City and she said, “I know how to take the subway”, we were staying in New
York, New Jersey and we had to take the subway, and we were going to go over and see
Times Square and some kind of show. There were twelve of us and six of us got on and
the one that knew her way around didn’t make it and the six of us were scared to death,
but somebody had enough sense to say, “let’s get off at the next stop and wait on them”
and that’s what we did and we got back together. 9:25 The good lord was watching after
us.
Interviewer: “So basically the teams spent the whole season on the road going from
one place to another?”
All the traveling teams, yes.
Interviewer: “You get to the end of the season and what happens?”
Well you just—some of them—the bus was originally from around the Fort Wayne area
and unless you left there, which I did and we brought the girl from Shreveport, Louisiana
back, my brother, and my sister and her husband came to pick me up because I wouldn’t
have known how to catch a bus back. I guess I could have been told, but my folks
weren’t going to let that happen. We gave her a ride back to Shreveport, but the rest of
them, a lot of them rode back to the Midwest on the bus and disbanded then. 10:13
Interviewer: “Now how did you communicate with your family while you’re
traveling around to all these places?”
Telephone and writing. Of course the folks had a schedule of where we were going to be
and they sent a letter ahead by week or something like that.
Interviewer: “That makes sense, so you’d get the winter off? You would go back
home then for the winter?”
Well, I had another year of high school.
4
�Interviewer: “So you go back to school. Does the season start then before the
school year’s over?”
Yes, I got permission to get out of high school to go to spring training.
Interviewer: “Where did they hold spring training for you?”
The first year that I went to spring training was in Cape Girardeau in Missouri. Before,
when it was really going, a lot of fans before the war was over, they got to go to Cuba,
Biloxi, Mississippi and a lot of places. 1 1:07 I got to go the first year to where did I
say? Cape Girardeau in Missouri, but after that South Bend usually went ahead and
practiced at home. The season got to starting a little bit later. That first year I went into
the league, it started in April and after that it started more like in April, the first of May.
Interviewer: “You moved from the traveling team, the barnstorming team and
junior level teams, to one of the regular teams in 1950 and you had kind of a crazy
set of assignments that year. Can you explain what happened to you that year?”
11:47
Okay, I went to spring training with Muskegon, we trained in Cape Girardeau with the
Fort Wayne Daisies and I know my dad was thrilled to death to get to meet Jimmy Foxx,
he was a professional and coached the Daisies. We played ball, we stopped off and
played at different towns on our way back north, well, by the time we got to Muskegon,
Michigan, they had us younger kids, at least two or three, staying with a family, they had
rooms, and we didn’t even get to play the first game because they disbanded the
Muskegon Lassies team. 12:30 As I understand it and what I can remember, is they had
done away with men’s baseball during the war, that’s one of the reasons the league was
formed, and they decided to bring minor league baseball back. That was my
understanding and I could be wrong, so we had to move on. They sent me to Peoria,
Illinois, the Red Wings, and I was there maybe five or six weeks and I had some very
good games, I pitched a sixteen inning game I lost and it ended two to one and pretty
soon South Bend traded for me and of course I didn’t know what was going on when they
told me to report to somebody. They put me on the bus and I reported there myself.
13:12
Interviewer: “Did you spend most of your career with South Bend?”
Yes sir, except I was on loan to Battle Creek one time for ten days or so.
Interviewer: “How did that work, being on loan?”
Well, I was disappointed at first, but I went over there and old “Mudcat Grant” was a
former professional pitcher and he had a lot of confidence in me and he wanted to pitch
me every chance—as soon as I had two or three days rest and wasn’t pitching, he put me
in another position, so when South Bend called me back I was a little unhappy at first, but
then we went on and won two championships and in the long run I was happy I went
5
�back to South Bend. I did get to play some first base and some other places before it was
over, even in South Bend. 14:03
Interviewer: “When you were in South Bend, what kind of living accommodations
did you have?”
Well, the first year I roomed with another lady, a widow lady who had rooms there.
After that four of us were able to get an upstairs apartment. One of the ladies, Wimp
Baumgartner in fact, had a car and three of us didn’t, so we kind of paid to help with
expenses and all. It gave us two bedrooms, a kitchenette and bath and everything.
Interviewer: “The league did not have a problem with that in terms of supervision
or anything?”
No, because well, Wimp was a little bit older than the others and I was—I must have
been seventeen that first year I lived in an apartment, but you were still supervised to a
certain extent by the family who owned the building even when you were that young.
We had to go through their front and up the stairs. 15:02
Interviewer: “Talk a little bit about your pitching career. You mentioned you had
a sixteen inning game you pitched, did you pitch any no hitters?”
I pitched a no hitter on tour, one error light of being a perfect game.
Interviewer: “The record books also mentioned that you pitched the most innings
of anyone in the league in 1953.”
I don’t know, I pitched a double header too and won both games.
Interviewer: “Now, you mentioned you were on the team for two championship
seasons, can you tell me a little bit about those, what went on or what helped your
team get ahead?”
Of course the first one we won we had a full team and good pitchers and I had my starts
and everything and I kind of hate to talk about the second one, but I will since this is
history. The second championship I played on we had a terrific team. 15:56 the last
game of the season we had a second baseman that she and the manager didn’t get along
greatly and he was trying to rest her and some of the starters because we were already in
the playoffs and I think it made her mad and she was sitting on the bench and had her
spikes off and everything and I think I got on base and he called for her to go in as pinch
runner and she wasn’t ready. Of course he saw it , that’s why he did that exactly, and
they had a big dispute and he kicked her off the team for good. I mean the playoffs were
going to start in just a couple days and it ended up that we lost seven players, five of them
starters. Left fielder, center fielder, second baseman, first base pitcher, third baseman and
another pitcher that walked off to support her and left us with twelve players. 17:06
6
�Interviewer: “So then what did you do?”
We won the championship.
Interviewer: “With just twelve?”
Yes, with just twelve. When I wasn’t pitching I was playing right field usually and one
night when I was pitching and I got in a little trouble, I had a left hand batter up that had
hit me pretty hard and the manager’s wife, Jean Fout, a great star anywhere she played,
was playing third base, she had to play third when she wasn’t pitching, and Elwood
called time and put her in to pitch to the left hander, put me on third base, the only time I
ever played third base in my life, and my knees were just shaking and he said, “you play
in half way and don’t let her bunt one. We got her out and the next inning I went back in
to finish the game. 17:56 That was—my knees couldn’t have shaken any worse. I
would be threatened to be killed playing third base, right in on top of the batter.
Interviewer: “But it was just for that one batter at least.”
One batter and I don’t think I could have made it back out the next inning to play third
base. That’s kind of a hot corner.
Interviewer: “Over the course of time that you were playing with the league, what
kinds of changes seemed to take place with it in terms of fan support or other
things?”
Well, the people had more things to do, television started coming in and attendance
started dropping and that was eventually what killed the league of course, but also the
baseball, I guess it was ten inches when I first started, and in the last year we played with
just a regular baseball, which was in my favor because all my life I had played at home
with a regular baseball. 18:56 I loved the little ball much better. Those were the main
changes and I think things got a little bit looser as far as chaperoning and making sure
you did this and you did that, but it was still a good game.
Interviewer: “Were you planning on going back and playing in 1955 when the
league shut down?”
Yes sir, I could have cried my heart out. I just turned twenty at the end of that season and
I figured I had a good nine or ten years left if it had gone on. I was just starting—I had a
pretty good temper, I could get mad and I was starting to get to control it a little bit better.
I would have liked to have another five years; I’ll put it that way. 19:47
Interviewer: “Were you surprised that it shut down or were you kind of expecting
it?”
Well, there had been rumors, yes. I know some of the trips we made that last year that
we played, some of the time we were taken in cars instead of a bus, so yes.
7
�Interviewer: “What was the fan support like in South Bend?”
It was real good when I first began playing and it started dropping off as it did most other
places.
Interviewer: “Now when the league itself shut down, what did you do at that
point?”
Well, I had already played basketball in South Bend with the South Bend Rockettes in
1953 and 1954, so I went home a few weeks and I had put my application in at Bendix
Aircraft on that break and was called up in October for a job. I wanted to play basketball
that year, but I needed the job, so I stayed on in South Bend and played basketball and
worked at various jobs until 21:00 I promised my dad in 1959 that I would come back to
Arkansas the next year and go to college. My younger brother started college, Church
College, and he wanted me to go and I promised him in November. I went back to South
Bend, I choke-up on this I’m sorry, but I promised him and that was the last time I saw
him alive. He dropped dead of a heart attack on January the second, so I figured it would
take me—I didn’t figure I could go then and pay my way, but I worked one more year
and saved my money and I had some savings bonds and I said, “well, I promised him”, so
the second year after he was gone I did go back, but I went to Arkansas State Teachers
because it was cheaper and I could get some financial help after I went a year and
realized I could make it because I had been out of high school—I was twenty-six then
see. 22:02 When I decided I could make it, I was able to get loans and since I did go
into education, I didn’t have to pay a lot of that back, so I was able to make it.
Interviewer: “How does that work? You say you didn’t have to pay a lot of that
back?”
If you taught school, they were crying for teachers at that time, and if you went into
teaching you only had to pay a very small percentage—I think I paid it off in about five
years, so I worked also too.
Interviewer: “You mentioned you were playing basketball and you were working
for a company, did companies sponsor teams or how did that work?”
No, they just tried to get you jobs with the—our business manager would ask around and
get the players a job that needed them. I worked at Bendix, but then Bendix—there was a
nose dive again, was it in the late fifties? 22:57 The economy kind of got bad, but I was
lucky enough to always be able to get a job especially during basketball season.
Interviewer: “Then how long were you a teacher?”
Twenty-five years.
Interviewer: “Where did you teach?”
8
�Well, I started out in a country school in Cass County, Indiana, out of Logansport and I
went home for the summer and the superintendent from Logansport had a friend of mine
that knew that I played softball with called me to see if I would come back and teach
summer school, they needed another summer school teacher, so I was with my mother,
but I had a sister living in Mr. Pleasant, Michigan with her family and brought mother
back to visit up there and I taught school about five or six weeks. Before the summer
was over the superintendent wanted me—he moved his staff around here in town because
he wanted me to teach school in Logansport because he was for girls athletics and they
were—that was before they really had teams and he was interested, it was through GAA
and stuff, but he was interested in them being taught the rules and the skills of different
sports, so then I taught in Logan the last twenty-four years. 24:15
Interviewer: “When you think back on your career as a baseball player, are there
particular events or things that happened to you or people that tend to stick out in
your mind or that come back to you that you haven’t really talked about here yet?”
Well of course Lou Arnold was a fascination for me and an encourager, and I still give
her a lot of credit. What I remember about her, about the first year of spring training
there, of course I was use to playing with boys remember, and I was kind of who could
get the ball first you know and one day when we were ready to warm up and everything, I
dived in to get the ball and Lou just kind of said, “now Sue just slow down, there’s
enough to go around, just take your time”, she was just always trying to encourage—on
manners, “thank you”. 25:10 Raised on a farm with boys it’s kind of rude how we—
even though I had a good mother and father , good disciplinarians, you still, you fought
for what you thought was yours, so Lou helped me in a lot of things like that, I’ll say that.
25:25 Lenny Zintak, who was on the tour, and when I was on the tour I, was teased a
great deal for of my southern accent and my hillbilly ways. I didn’t mind a great deal
except sometimes I would almost be in tears. On my sixteenth birthday, when I entered
the bus, he grabbed me and gave me a great big kiss, of course my face turned all read
and I was about half way—he said, “now Sue”, he didn’t say it right there in front of
people, but he said, “ I want you to realize when people kid you, they like you, so take
that as a compliment”, and I always think that now too and I can thank Lenny Zintak for
that. 26:08
Interviewer: “Going back at your career, how do you think that wound up affecting
you, either the person you became or the kind of life or career you went into?”
A great deal, I might never have left the state of Arkansas and I doubt that I would have
even gone on to get a college education. All the friends you make and all the places you
go and I kept in touch with a great deal of those friends and then when we started having
these reunions—when would I have ever had a chance to be a small part of a movie like
“A League of Their Own”, and get to pitch batting practice with Penny Marshall and stuff
like that. 26:56
Interviewer: “How good of a hitter was Penny Marshall?”
9
�Well, she could hit the ball. It was not like some of the others that I had to hit the bat for
them, the older boys.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie it’s self? Do you think it did a good
job?”
I thought it did a good job and of course part of it was Hollywood. The Major never
would have gone in the locker room and wouldn’t have been drunk like that they
wouldn’t have allowed that. A lot of people thought that they never would have had a
little boy like that, but Jean Fout and the manager were man and wife and sometimes if
they didn’t have a baby sitter their little Larry was with us. I’ve got a picture of he and I
on the steps of the dugout in Kalamazoo I think it was. I was tying my shoe and he was
standing there helping me. 27:54 People that I’ve heard—I saw the movie and been a
lot of places and given a little talk, even though I’m not a good speaker, about it and
when somebody would bring up that I would say, “oh yes, there’s nothing false about that
because we ourselves had a little boy and he traveled part of the time”. He had his own
little uniform and that was based on him probably.
Interviewer: “Speaking of pictures, I heard there was a publicity picture of you on
a donkey, could you explain that?”
Yeah, well it was during spring training and the manager said I was going out to so and
so’s farm in the afternoon to have my picture taken on a donkey and I think they had a
suitcase for me, I don’t think I had to take mine. 28:42 It was just for publicity and that
was probably in 1952, it might have been earlier, when attendance was dropping,
anything for publicity, we had to do anything, but I was supposed to be coming in for
spring training riding my donkey and I was a little irritated because it wasn’t at least a
saddle horse as I said, but that’s alright. They had a night, I guess it was baseball,
running, pitching for accuracy, and they brought that darn donkey out and I had to ride
him to the mound, there’s no pictures of that, but that crazy thing balked on the third
baseline and I had to get off of him and lead him across and get back on him. I did
because I was stubborn too and made him take me to the mound, but anything to try to
help attendance. 29:39
Interviewer: “Now, do you think they ought to come and try to create a women’s
national baseball league again?”
That would be great for women who love baseball as much as I did and the rest of these
ladies.
Interviewer: “Do you think that’s something that’s likely to happen at some point?”
I don’t know, you have got to have sponsors.
Interviewer: “Do you pay much attention to like, women’s basketball for instance,
there’s a professional league out there now?”
10
�Off and on, off and on--they play good basketball and I’d of liked to been able to play on
that because I love basketball during basketball season like I love baseball during
baseball season, so it would have been hard for me to choose, I’d of liked to play them
both. 30:21
Interviewer: “Anything else you would like to add to the record here before we
close out the interview?”
I think we pretty well covered everything.
Interviewer: “You tell a good story, so thank you very much.” 30:31
11
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_SKidd
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Kidd, Sue (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Kidd, Sue
Description
An account of the resource
Sue Kidd was born in 1933 in Choctaw, Arkansas. She got her interest in baseball from her father and two brothers who she played with regularly as a child. Growing up, Kidd played other sports too like football and basketball but eventually decided on a career in baseball following a meeting with her high school guidance counselor. In the spring of 1949, Kidd, at age 15, was scouted and tried out for a pitcher position in Little Rock, Arkansas. Beginning her professional career in 1950 Kidd played until 1954 when the All American Girls Professional Baseball League ended. At the start of 1950, Kidd played for the Muskegon Lassies, Peoria Redwings, and South Bend Blue Sox. In 1951, she played for the South Bend Blue Sox but then was on loan for a brief time with the Battle Creek Belles. From 1952 to 1954 she stayed with the South Bend Blue Sox. In that time, she pitched and won two double headers in 1953 and won two championships. She played pitcher, first base, and right field during her time with South Bend. When the league shut down in 1954 she went on to play basketball with the South Bend Rockettes until 1959 when she went on to pursue a career in teaching which did for twenty-six years. She wraps up the interview by discussing how baseball impacted her.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players-Illinois
Baseball players--Indiana
Women
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-25
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/746e90103525506d9addde930e24f34e.m4v
a05b76cf1f886a9891f0fa73ad8b22ad
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1173e9a8169c4a0b0c562cd7db651a76.pdf
dabe6d8795ce1346ac2e513491746740
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Rosemary Stevenson
Length of Interview (00:41:40)
Interviewed by: Frank Boring
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, August 30, 2008
Interviewer: “Can we begin with your name and where and when were you born?”
My name is Rosemary Stevenson; I was born on July 2, 1936 in a little town called
Stalwart, Michigan, in the Upper Peninsula.
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
I grew up on a farm and was the oldest of seven. A life I wouldn’t change, growing up on
a farm was neat because, I don’t know, you have your own built in playground with the
animals and even the chores. You grow up with a good work ethic also. 1:21
Interviewer: “Were you athletically inclined at an early age?”
Yes, the neighbor kids had twelve and we had seven so, almost every night after our
chores, we had a ball game going on in the field.
Interviewer: “So you were playing baseball very early on?”
Right.
Interviewer: “And what position did you favor when you were a young kid?”
I don’t know, we just played wherever there was a spot. We chose up teams and the
leader pointed you out and you played there, just played.
Interviewer: “What kind of equipment did you have?”
Probably a flat old glove back then and whatever bat was lying around. 2:03
Interviewer: “What was your schooling like?”
I grew up going to a one-room schoolhouse and I started there in the kinder grade and I
went through the seventh grade and I skipped the eighth grade and went into high school
in the little town of Pickford, Michigan. I graduated from there in 1954 and when I
graduated on a Thursday night, on Friday my coach brought me to Grand Rapids and on
Saturday I was playing my first professional baseball game. 2:42
Interviewer: “Oh my goodness, you jumped into this.”
I jumped in, oh yeah.
1
�Interviewer: “Let’s back up a bit then. By 1950—you said you joined in 1954? The
league had almost ended, and since 1943 there was already a league going. Did you
know anything about the women’s professional baseball league?”
I did not know about it until the spring of 1954.
Interviewer: “How come? It was a pretty big phenomenon, wasn’t it?”
Well, think maybe because I was in the Upper Peninsula and no scouts ever came up
there. I accidentally was reading a softball rulebook and in the back it said, “Women’s
Professional Baseball” and it gave a name and an address in Fort Wayne, Indiana so, I
wrote to them. 3:41
Interviewer: “Hold on a second. I know this is going to sound like a very stupid
question, but why were you interested?”
I was always interested in playing ball, but it just interested me all the more when I found
out there was women’s baseball. At that point I had been playing organized softball since
I was eleven.
Interviewer: “By organized softball, it’s similar to what we have today, just
neighborhood teams playing against other towns and things like that?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “But there was no real—the organized leagues, were they part of your
school or just community type teams, the softball?”
They were community, each little community had their own girl’s softball team and they
traveled around, usually on a Sunday afternoon and played one another. 4:47 I played in
a league that was the team that I played with was the Sault Lockettes out of Sault Ste.
Marie, Michigan and we played in a league with the Canadian teams, which was a much
faster fast pitch league and we call, “Across the river”. 5:07
Interviewer: “Did you have any—you knew that men had professional baseball?
You also knew that women couldn’t play in men’s baseball? Was there any sense
of, ”Gee, I wish that I could play professional baseball”?”
There might have been, in my heart, but it wasn’t brought forward until I read about that
there was a league.
Interviewer: “I guess you wouldn’t think about it because there was no chance of
it?”
Right.
2
�Interviewer: “So, you found this book and you read in the back of this book that
there actually was a professional league so, before you jump into it, what happened
after you saw that?”
Well, I wrote to the gentleman’s name and address, and I don’t remember his name now,
in Fort Wayne, Indiana and they sent me a letter back and said, “We are having a try out
camp in Battle Creek, Michigan”, and I believe it was the 13th, 14th and 15th of May of
1954 and, “If you are interested come on down, and if you make a team we will pay all of
your expenses”. So, I went there. 6:23
Interviewer: “How did you get there?”
By my coach, he took me down there—this gentleman was a real neat guy, he was a fullblooded Chippewa Indian and loved helping kids and fortunately he was my coach. He
took me down there and there was a tryout from Friday, Saturday and Sunday and we did
everything: run, throw, catch.
Interviewer: “I want to back up before you get into that. He brings you by car?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Give me a visual of—I remember from the movie, ‘A league of Their
Own”, when Geena Davis and her sister walk on and she suddenly sees the big
baseball league, what was your experience like when you arrive with your coach, try
to give me an idea, the visual of what you saw?”
What I saw was a lot of girls out there to try out for teams. There were a hundred and six
of us from the Midwest that had come there to try out to see if we could make a team.
Like I said, we went through all the routines, we ran, we batted, we slid, everything so
they could see how we could perform and then on Sunday they said they would post our
names. On Sunday, six of us made it. 8:00
Interviewer: “While you were there doing the tryouts, were you in any kind of a
uniform or did you wear regular clothes or what were you wearing?”
Blue Jeans and T-shirt.
Interviewer: “Most of the women were just in clothes that they could slide into base
or hit the ball or anything like that?”
Right.
Interviewer: “Did it seem to you that it was very well organized?”
Yes, it was, very much so and there were a lot of coaches and managers around there
watching all the time. They were just, I assume, like the big league was, watching for the
best talent. 8:43
Interviewer: “What did you feel that you excelled at?”
3
�My coach said, the thing that I excelled there at, was my arm. He said that when I—there
were two balls from the outfield that they hit out there and when I hit the perfect strike to
home plate, that sealed it.
Interviewer: “He drove you back?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “What was the conversation in the car like?”
Well, he was excited. They had told me right there that I was accepted by the “Grand
Rapids Chicks” and I would be getting a contract in the mail for my parents to sign.
Interviewer: “Why for your parents to sign?”
Because I was a minor.
Interviewer: “Ah, how old were you?”
Seventeen and so he was excited that I had gotten that far and was chosen to play
professional baseball. 9:31
Interviewer: “Did he know very much about the league?”
He didn’t know any more than I did.
Interviewer: ‘Ok, how did your parents react to this?”
Well, my dad was never one to really speak out about anything I did really so, he never
really said too much. My mom had pride and she came back down when my coach
brought me down to Grand Rapids, she came along, but my dad never saw me play
professional baseball. 10:05
Interviewer: “He was a farmer?”
Yea, a farmer and he worked off of the farm also.
Interviewer “So, the contract came in the mail finally?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “And how much were you paid?”
I was paid fifty dollars a week, plus expenses.
Interviewer: “So, give me an idea of the process of getting into the “Grand Rapids,
Chicks? You went to the tryouts, you made the cut of six out of 120—“
It was a hundred and six.
Interviewer: “That’s pretty amazing, you’ve got the contract, you’ve signed it,
alright, where did you go and what was the first stage of your becoming a
professional baseball player?” 10:47
4
�OK, I got the contract, my folks signed it and we sent it back and we got a letter saying to
report, it was like the Friday after I graduated, I graduated on a Thursday night in May of
1954, and I don’t remember the date, but it was like the latter part of May so, Friday we
left the Upper Peninsula, my coach, my mom and I and they had a place already set up
for us. We stayed with families that would rent us a room for five bucks, and so we went
there and first we checked into the office, the business office, and they gave us some
details etc. about what I was supposed to do, which was—I would get a uniform, come
back and pick up the uniform and then check with this address because that’s where in on
Prospect St. in Grand Rapids. Then when I had the uniform, I was to be in uniform on
Saturday morning for warm-ups and the game would be Saturday night and it would be
up to Woody English, the manager, to put me in the line-up. 12:09
Interviewer: “Now, some of these questions are going to sound stupid, but I’m
trying to get to as much detail as possible. There is already an existing “Grand
Rapids Chicks” team and they have a pitcher and a catcher and fielders and all
that, How many women were actually on the team, I know how many actually play
at a given game, but how many were actually on the team that you can recall?”
I say there were maybe fifteen on the roster. 12:33
Interviewer: “So, not everybody could play in a given game?”
Right.
Interviewer: “You’re the new kid on the block. What was your first game like?
Let me go through it, first you got the uniform? Where did you get that?”
From the business office.
Interviewer: “Ok, Did it fit?”
Yup, they ask you the size.
Interviewer: “Describe in detail the uniform. What did it look like?”
It was the—home uniforms were white with blue trim, our away uniforms were gray with
blue trim and they carried them with them, they took care of them and laundered them so
I didn’t have to take care of them as far as laundry or anything like that, but we had two
uniforms to wear. You had your cap and you had what they called your little blue
bloomers that you wore underneath. No sliding pads. 13:41
Interviewer: “You were wearing skirts.”
We were wearing skirts and they were—it was embarrassing to wear as I grew up as a
farm girl and was used to wearing blue jeans. When you put a skirt on that’s probably
knee length, you feel like you’re undressed.
5
�Interviewer: “Well, in those days—this is before the mini skirts, this is before
women wore skirts that short and here you are parading out in front of thousands of
people, I can imagine it must have been—what about the shoes, the socks, did they
come up to the knee?”
Right, they came up mid-calf and the shoes were our regular baseball spikes that we had.
14:20
Interviewer: “Were they cleats?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Ok. So, you now have your uniform and how did you get to, because
I assume your coach is now back home, how did you get to the baseball diamond?”
I was close enough to walk. I would walk to the baseball diamond.
Interviewer: “Had you met any of the other girls yet?”
Not until the first day that I got in the ballpark.
Interviewer: That’s what I want to get at now. You’re the new kid on the block,
you’re from the Upper Peninsula, a farm girl, what was the reaction of these
professional baseball players to you when you first got there?”
When I first got there I was introduced by the chaperone to all the girls and vice versa,
and you know, you seem to be accepted, again you’re the new kid on the block, but
through the course of that summer you were not really accepted by the pros so to speak
because the rookies always felt that they had the feeling that we were going to take their
job away from them. If there was a party or a get together or something, you were never
invited with them, so you were kind of a loner. 15:42
Interviewer: “Were you with other rookies?”
There was one more rookie.
Interviewer: “Did you start a relationship with that person?”
Not really, not really, I started—I actually started a relationship with—there were five
girls that had graduated that same year from local schools in Grand Rapids that came to
the games and we started kind of started jelling together. They kind of took me around
town, you know. 16:13
Interviewer: “You mentioned a chaperone, now I know what it is, but for the
record, what was the chaperone?”
6
�Dolly Hunter was out chaperone, she was a real neat lady, I mean she was like a
surrogate mother for one thing, and she also made sure that we represented the league
well in our dress, our actions and our voice, how we talked. 16:41
Interviewer: “Did you have clothing requirements, because you made mention
earlier that you felt comfortable in blue jeans and a t-shirt, were you allowed to go
out in public that way?”
No. If you were not around the ballpark, you could because nobody knew who you were,
but if you were, say for instance, an example would be if we were traveling, we traveled
by leased station wagons, Orson Coe leased them to us, if you had to stop to go to the
restroom and you were wearing shorts, you had to have a wrap around skirt or something
to put on to go out of the van or the station wagon to go to the bathroom. You couldn’t
be seen smoking in public, but you had to be dressed like a lady. You know the same
thing, if you came out of—after a game and you came out of the clubhouse, then you
better have a skirt and blouse on. You didn’t come out of there in slacks or blue jeans.
17:47
Interviewer: “What happened if you did?”
You probably would have been suspended from the games or something.
Interviewer: “So, there were penalties, and that was made clear to you?”
Yes, and how strict the penalty was—we can jump back to the—in the tryout camp we
had, there was one young lady from Wisconsin was super good, she would have made a
team anyplace, but she broke the rules, she went out on the fire escape and had a cigarette
and the next day she was on the bus home. 18:18 The rules were very strict.
Interviewer: “Did you have to go through—because I know that, in the research
that I have done, that you had a kind of a charm school?”
No, that was gone by the time I came.
Interviewer: “But, they did instruct you in terms of your behavior and made it
clear that you had to dress a certain way and you couldn’t smoke and all those sort
of things?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Let’s go right to your first day, your first actual game, do you
remember whom it was against?”
I think it was Kalamazoo.
Interviewer: “What was that experience like? You got to the ballpark, you say you
walked there, you got there—“
7
�Well, the first game, my coach and mom were still here so, I got a ride with them and
they got to see the first game I played in. We went to the park, which was South Field,
and got dressed in the clubhouse and the manager said, “I’m going to put you in the
lineup tonight, your mom and coach are here and I’m going to put you in the lineup”. I
played right field so, I honestly don’t remember if I got a hit or not. 19:34
Interviewer: “But, you must have been excited, you coach was out there and your
mom was out there and it was your first professional—you’re getting played to play
baseball?”
Yes, yes, it was exciting. A dream like you never thought was going to happen.
Interviewer: “What was the next game like? It doesn’t have to be the very next
one, but early on as you’re starting to play the first few times. You played in
seasons right?”
Yes, we played every night of the week and double headers on Sunday and at that time
there were only five teams and you would have an open day once in a while. As I got
more comfortable with the league and with the team, I dealt and I did pretty well. I don’t
know if I’m jumping ahead of your story, but I batted 223, I had three home runs for a
rookie, I don’t remember how many runs batted in or anything like that, but it seems like
it was seven I’m not exactly sure, but I felt a little more comfortable of getting to the
plate, of playing positions, mainly I was a utility outfielder and I usually played either
right or left. 20:54
Interviewer: “How good were the other teams?”
Very good, it always seemed like when we went against Fort Wayne it was a chore
because they had good players and Rockford was the same thing.
Interviewer: “That’s the “Rockford Peaches”?”
Right.
Interviewer: “They were probably the most famous.”
Right, but Fort Wayne had some real good hitters and they had some good pitchers too.
So, it was—they were all, I think, evenly balanced, so the games were good.
Interviewer: “What kind of crowds were you drawing?”
When I first got there, in the first part of the season, the crowds were really not good. I
mean—I’m guessing maybe a thousand people some times—it depends who you were
playing, but I do remember towards the end of the season, standing in the outfield in
Rockford and counting a hundred and twenty five in the stands. So, you knew something
was going on, but you didn’t know what. 21:54
8
�Interviewer: “What was the reaction of the crowds, from your own personal
perspective, not what you have read about, but from your personal perspective,
what was the reaction of the crowds to your team and the teams that you were
playing? They came there to see women’s baseball, were there hecklers? Were
people laughing?”
No, by the time that I got there, they were behind the teams, I mean they were shouting
for them, there were certain players that they were really shouting for and it was neat.
There was no heckling, no carrying on or anything like that and the kids would come
there and they would want you to sign their arm or a baseball or something so, it was
neat. 22:39
Interviewer: “Were there a lot of younger kids?”
Yes there was and there were a lot of people who would follow, if we were playing say
Kalamazoo, or maybe South Bend or any of those, they would follow the team and be
right there when we played that night.
Interviewer: “How far did you have to travel to play games? Were you basically
within a certain tri-state area?”
Midwest, just the Midwest area and I think the furthest one that I traveled to, when I was
playing, was Rockford, Illinois. We had South Bend, Rockford, Illinois, Kalamazoo,
Grand Rapids and Fort Wayne, at that time, that were still in the leagues. 23:27
Interviewer: “Did you get a chance, when you traveled to other towns, did you get a
chance so socialize with the other teams or go out and see what the town looked like,
or were you pretty much driven there, play a game, go to your hotel and come back
home?”
It all depends if we got there late at night. You might be bushed, so you want to go to
bed and didn’t feel like doing anything. I liked to get out and walk around the towns and
back then you could walk around the towns. I did meet different people there and they
weren’t the ball players, it was usually local people. 24:03
Interviewer: “Did you let them know you were a baseball player?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “And what was their reaction?”
Kind of surprised and yet some were—“Oh yeah, we know about the ball team here in
town.” It was just nice to meet and talk to the local folks.
Interviewer: ‘Was there much media coverage, from your experience playing the
games, did you see cameras, did you see people with movie cameras, Movietone
news for example was the thing of the day, you would go to the movies and there
9
�would be Movietone News and I’ve seen of course, a lot of this film footage of yours,
“There’s the diamond gals, can you hit the ball?” A kind of condescending kind of
attitude, did you ever see any of the media there?”
I never saw any.
Interviewer: “Were you interviewed by the newspapers at that time?”
Yes. Quite a few articles were written up in the newspapers and then radio—went on
radio different times. Probably three times I was interviewed in the Upper Peninsula at
the radio stations there and the local papers up there, plus the local papers here. 25:10
Interviewer: “What were some of your memorable games?”
I guess the one that really sticks out in my mind is when we were playing Fort Wayne
and I was playing center field at that time and one of the Foss girls, actually all of the
Foss girls were really big farm girls and when they hit that ball you might as well stand
next to the fence because it was going to go out. This one she hit one to the center field,
actually the right center, and I remember going up the wall to get it and saved a home
run. 25:42 That to me stood out in my career.
Interviewer: “did you get a big reaction from the crowd?”
Oh yes, It was oohs and ahs, and she didn’t get the home run.
Interviewer: “Your time out in the outfield you spent of course, fly balls are coming
out there, you’ve got balls that hit out into there. What were the most difficult ones
to field? Pop ups are obviously easy to catch, what were some of the ones that you
found—you were saying to yourself—oh, oh, there’s one of those coming at me?”
Well, sometimes it would be if it was like a line drive that missed the infield, got by the
infield, that was—it hits the ground and you don’t know where it’s going to go so, you’re
trying to out judge the ball. That would be the ones or the ones that you would lose in the
sun. 26:41
Interviewer: “Now you had a good arm so, from the outfield you could actually hit
home plate?”
I could hit home plate or I could hit it on a bounce, depending on the distance.
Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier, since you were the rookie, there was this
sense the pros a little bit reluctant to be involved with you because you were there to
take their job or they just weren’t friendly, did that change at all during the course
of your time with the “Chicks”?”
10
�I think it changed after the league folded. I became good friends with some of the old
timers, formers and I think it has you know, it has changed somewhat now that we come
together as a group and the group is getting smaller, unfortunately and with our reunions
that we have every year, you got to know the other players a little bit better, because
you’re in the—for a week-end you’re in a hotel someplace, and you’re getting together at
mealtime and just sitting around talking. You get to know them a little bit better and I
think after the league folded, I think, at least myself, I got to know the players better.
28:04
Interviewer: “Did you actually get to talk to that Foss girl that hit that, what she
was a home run, and you caught it?”
Oh, I’m sure I did, but I don’t remember.
Interviewer: “What was your coach like?”
He was a good coach, yes. Being my first year I learned a lot from him.
Interviewer: “You know the movie, the Tom Hanks movie, the Penny Marshall
movie and I know it was an exaggeration, I know it was a movie, there was a sense
of a male coach having to coach female baseball players. Did you feel anything like
that with your coach? What was his background for example?” 28:43
He played for the Cubs, he was a shortstop for the Cubs and I didn’t feel anything like
what they portrayed in the movie, like Tom Hanks. You know, he would scream at us
once in a while, but he probably had a right to, but I never saw him go through the
shenanigans like Tom Hanks did. 29:12
Interviewer: “At the conclusion of a baseball game, at least when I was playing
baseball in little league, each of the teams would line up and you would shake their
hand, did that same thing happen to you?”
The same thing, yes.
Interviewer: “So you got a chance to see eye to eye, some of the people you played
and were up against? But again, there was no socializing afterwards though?”
They didn’t encourage socializing and going out afterwards. That again, was against the
rules. 29:48
Interviewer: “Did you ever break any of those rules?”
No, I don’t recall ever doing that.
Interviewer: “So you guys never went out for a beer party or anything like that?”
No, I’m not a beer party person.
Interviewer: “How many seasons did you play?”
The last year.
11
�Interviewer: “And that was how many months?”
It was May through September.
Interviewer: “So, now you’re getting towards the end of September, what were you
told in terms of, the season is over with and since 1943 there has been a new season
and a new season, were you told that there was going to be a new season?”
No, we had no idea that the league was going to fold other than what I said about
Rockford, less fans in the stands, there were just different things that were kind of going
on, but nobody told us anything. In December we got a letter stating that the league had
folded and there would be no more baseball for women. 30:52
Interviewer: “What were—before we get to that letter, it’s September, the season is
now over with, what were you planning to do? Go home?”
Well, I had already gone home. We were playing in the tournaments at the end of the
season and we were playing against Fort Wayne and Fort Wayne loaded their lineup. We
played one game against them and we had to play another game and Woody didn’t like it
when he found out they were stacking the line up and he pulled us out and he brought us
home, so we walked out on the tournament, so I packed up and I went back home to the
Upper Peninsula, got a job with the idea that I would be back playing ball for somebody
until I got that letter in December. 31:51
Interviewer: “What was your reaction?”
Broken hearted, I was thinking, “One year and the dream bubble’s broken so, where do
you go from there”.
Interviewer: “Were you, and I realize that you were very young, were you
anticipating a career, a full blown career as a professional baseball player?”
I guess I just thought I would play as long as—I hoped the league would be there a long
time so I guess the idea was yes, I did have that dream. 32:33
Interviewer: “Did you have alternative plans?”
No, no.
Interviewer: “At seventeen you very rarely do. So, you’re thinking that you’re
going to be playing professional baseball for the conceivable future, into you
twenties or whatever you can, and then you get the letter telling you it is over
completely. Did you ever try to find out why or what happened, or did you just
accept that it was over with?”
Well I did, this one young lady that I was good friends with in Grand Rapids, her father
was on the board and so through her I did find out the league just didn’t have any
financing. 33:10 They couldn’t afford to pay the salaries anymore so therefore, they
12
�disbanded, again the men came back from being in the war, television, people were
buying television sets and watching that instead of coming out to the ball games, and the
gas was not rationed anymore. That was another issue that we had, that it was rationed
and you only got so many gallons and so, people were getting out and doing other things
instead of going to the ball parks. And so, it just—the era had died, which is unfortunate
it happened. 33:50
Interviewer: “What did you end up doing then as a job, you’re only eighteen years
old or something, what did you decide to do for a living?”
Well, when I went back to the Upper Peninsula, I got a job in a restaurant and I decided I
wasn’t going to do that the rest of my life. So, I came back to Grand Rapids and again
through this friend and her family, I got a job at Keeler Brass and I worked there for
probably three or four months and I was allergic to the oil on the drill presses, and one of
the girls that I was playing softball with, here in Grand Rapids, said, “We got some
openings at the telephone company”, and I said, “Well, I don’t want to be a telephone
operator”, and she said, “No, you don’t have to be—I work in the office and connect the
wires in there that supply dial tone and that’s the kind of work I do”, and she said I
should go and apply so, I went down and applied and the next day I’m working at the
telephone company. 34:49 I worked there for thirty four and a half years and I retired
from there.
Interviewer: “You mentioned softball so, you went right back into playing again?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “This time for a Grand Rapids area team?”
I played for Grand Rapids Bissell and I played for Michigan Bell. I coached both teams,
I coached and played softball for fifty-two years and I played a lot of my softball in
Zeeland, Michigan, the Zeeland league out there. 35:25
Interviewer: “So, baseball still, even though you couldn’t play professional
baseball, it’s still a major part of your life.”
It is, yes.
Interviewer: “What was the appeal?”
I don’t know.
Interviewer: “I know this is a funny question, but to devote your life to a particular
sport—I understand that you’re athletic and you enjoy athletics and all, but what is
it about baseball?” 35:49
I don’t know, just the sport. You know it’s funny because the class prophesy, you know
they write it up in the year book, I was supposed to be playing basketball for the
“Redheads” out west and I never played basketball in my life, but my dad was an umpire
for baseball and we went around every Saturday afternoon where he was umpiring and he
13
�actually coached baseball teams, the men’s baseball teams. I had two uncles that were
pitchers so, it’s in the family you know, and my siblings are the same way, they have all
played in the sport. I love working with young kids when it comes to softball and I was
varsity softball coach for Muskegon Catholic Central for two years and I don’t know, it’s
just there. 36:40
Interviewer: “I think you answered it. How do you think your experience, even
though it was very short, how did that experience change your life, or did it change
your life or have some kind of an effect on your life? You obviously went back into
baseball again and you‘ve tried to instill in young people your love for the game, but
that one season, did it have any effect on you in terms of your life?”
Well, probably coming from a small community, it probably allowed me to reach out and
broaden my circle of friends. 37:24
Interviewer: “So, being from a smaller community, you went out into the world so
to speak. Were you very shy as a child?”
No.
Interviewer: “So, you didn’t have any problem getting into that?”
No.
Interviewer: “What do you say to young girls today about your experience? I
imagine a lot of these girls playing ball may not even know—I’m amazed at the
number of college students that I talk to that had no idea there was women’s
professional baseball. Do you find that there’s—the younger people you talk to, are
they aware of what you did and the fact that there was a professional league?”
A lot of them are not. I go around with a friend of mine who played pro ball with
Kalamazoo, we go around and talk to schools and quite often the teacher will have them
watch the movie, “A League of Their Own”, so they can ask us questions and they’re in
awe as much as their parent because their parents haven’t seen it and they didn’t know
there was women’s baseball. So, there are still people out there who are not aware that
we’re even around. People say, “Why didn’t you ever talk about it before?” But, nobody
listened because they thought we were playing softball. 38:53
Interviewer: “Well, The Library of Congress is interested so, as of this particular
interview and the ones we’re going to do with your fellow ball players, I think it’s an
important part of American history and I am very, very pleased that we got a
chance to sit down and talk. 39:10 I have a couple more questions for you though,
This is kind of a difficult one to answer because it’s going to require you to really
give some thought to—do you think the experience of women’s professional baseball
had an effect on the way that women today, and even right after you, the
opportunities that were opened up as people saw a woman get up and hit a home
run or to slide into a base and have a crowd go nuts, just like a men’s team. Do you
14
�think that the women’s professional baseball league had any affect on the
progression, if you will, of the opportunity for women?” 40:02
I think we did. I do believe that we opened the door for women in sports. We didn’t
know it at the time, but I honestly think that was the beginning.
Interviewer: ‘What about things like women having more opportunity to go beyond
being a nurse, being a teacher, being a homemaker, do you think the fact that they
saw baseball, and you maybe didn’t even think about it at the time, I’m asking you
to think about it now, the fact that people saw women doing something that a man
could do might of opened up some opportunities for—somebody might say the don’t
want to be a baseball player, maybe I’ll be a basketball player, or maybe I’ll be this
or I’ll be that?” 40:47
I believe it also opened the door for them, it allowed the young ladies follow their
dreams, whatever their dream was.
Interviewer: “I couldn’t have asked for a better ending right there. That’s just
wonderful, just wonderful. Are there any other things that you can think of that
you would like to say—something that happened in a game or just a commentary
that you have before we close?”
I just thank god that I had the ability and the opportunity to play professional baseball.
Interviewer: “Rosemary, it’s been a real delight, thank you so much.” 41:26
Thank you.
15
�16
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_RStevenson
Title
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Stevenson, Rosemary (Interview transcript and video), 2008
Creator
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Stevenson, Rosemary
Description
An account of the resource
Rosemary Stevenson was born on July 2, 1936 in Stalwart in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. Growing up she loved to play baseball with the neighborhood kids. Before entering the All American Girls Professional Baseball League she played for the Sault Lockettes. She first heard about the All American Girls from a baseball scouting book and then tried out in Battle Creek in summer 1954. After tryouts she signed with the Grand Rapids Chicks and played both left and right field. One of her career highlights during the 1954 season was saving a home run against Fort Wayne Daisies.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-06-10
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8921f48040d18127e74132c5ad31d28f.m4v
548ff88ad838ecd57ef4d0631e928b7c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/09c1c776e2a47e32dc3194ecc9a53bf7.pdf
80d6675ca4cb261b509390a95a53ff64
PDF Text
Text
Ozburn, Dolly
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Dolly Ozburn
Length of Interview: (01:28:07)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “Okay, Dolly. Start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin
with, where and when were you born?”
I was born in Charlotte, North Carolina. Actually, Mecklenburg County. I was…
Interviewer: “What year?”
1937. And I was a premature baby. I weighed a pound and three ounces.
Interviewer: “Wow.”
And the doctor said that…He came three days after and said, “She won’t make it. So we won’t
even fill out a birth certificate. We will wait until she passes away, and we’ll fill out the birth and
death certificate at the same time.” Well, he’s gone, and I’m still here, so…And I tell the kids
when I talk to them, “Don’t ever give up.” And I tell them that story. And I had a little second
grade boy who wrote me a letter after I spoke with them and said, “I learned a lot about you, and
I learned a lot about baseball. And I learned that you were born before baseball was invented.”
So…So I guess maybe I’m pretty well-preserved. (1:23)
Interviewer: “Okay, so did your family ever tell you how they managed to keep you alive
while you were that little?”
It was difficult. My mother was sick also. So my aunts and great-aunts and my grandmother
came in, and they all had to help because it was a twenty-four hour a day job. I had one drop of
milk every half-hour, and all I could take was a drop because at twenty-four weeks, which is
what I was, you have no ability to suck, you have no ability to swallow, you have no eyebrows,
no eyelashes, no fingernails, no toenails, and only my face was ossified. (2:04) The back of my
head was not, so they had to keep me on a pillow to keep me from hitting my head. And there are
people who claimed I must have hit my head. A lot of them. And I had one drop of water every
half-hour. Every half-hour. So I had a drop of milk, let’s say, at seven o’clock, 7:15 a drop of
water, 7:30 a drop of milk, and 7:45 a drop of water. So you could see it took twenty-four hours
a day. And to keep my skin from breaking and bleeding because it was so thin, they bathed me in
olive oil four or five, six times a day or whenever my skin got dry, they had to bathe me in olive
oil.
Interviewer: “Wow.”
1
�Ozburn, Dolly
And I talked to a doctor who does this now full-time and—in my area—and he said, “That’s
really strange that they knew to do that.” He said, “Because we do that.” He said, “We have—”
He said, “We can do that when the baby can’t go in isolation.” And I was never in an incubator.
Never in a hospital because the hospitals couldn’t do anything for you then. And my dad’s
handkerchiefs became diapers. Of course, there probably wasn’t very much there, but my dad’s
handkerchiefs became diapers, and they kept me in a shoebox on the stove. On the woodstove.
On the thing of the woodstove to keep me warm. Of course, being born in June was a plus. You
know, I didn’t have winter to deal with, so…And I don’t know how long…I was very small up
until I was probably thirteen years old, and then I started growing then.
Interviewer: “Wow. Okay, so…But were you able to go to school on the regular schedule? I
mean, when you’re six years old, you could go, or…?”
Oh, yes. Yeah. I did everything on schedule. (4:03) As far as…Well, they took me to the doctor
for probably regular check-ups, but I was never hospitalized or anything like that, and …Oh,
yeah, I went to school on a regular schedule. I was a tomboy from day one, and in school, as a
matter of fact, I probably would’ve been on drugs now if I…I was very, very, very active. In
school they let me stand up in the back of the room to read or to lean over my desk because I
couldn’t sit in the desk very well. And I always wanted to be outside playing with the boys. I was
outside in the morning early, and I never came in. They had to drag me in for lunch. I had a dog
named Pee Wee, and Pee Wee…My dad taught him to bark. That’s the only way he could find
me because when I was going in the morning, I was going. I was either on the ball field or up a
tree or something. And my dad taught the dog to bark. The dog was always with me. And he
taught the dog to bark when he whistled. And when he whistled, the dog barked, and they knew
where to find me. Either up a tree or at the ball field or wherever. At the ball field that we built.
We built our own ball field. Our…our group. And I just played with the kids in the
neighborhood, and…
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was your family doing for a living at that point?”
My dad actually worked in an asbestos mill. He cut meat on Friday night and ran his own
business on Saturday, so…And my mom was a stay-at-home mom. She had worked up until I
was born, and then it took too much time to take care of me as an infant. And she worked…She
was also working the mill, and…She didn’t work in the asbestos mill though. She worked in the
hosiery mill. And my brothers and sisters did try to keep me in line. My brother…He helped me
learn to play ball, but he didn’t always help the right way. He broke a rib of mine once
throwing—hitting a ball at me. It hit me in the rib. So I picked the ball up and threw it back at
him. And so he was never…He was always—He was helpful but not always.
Interviewer: “All right. Now were there other girls who would play, too, or was that just
you?”
There were, I think, three or four girls in the neighborhood that played. Then when we moved
when I was in the fifth grade…Well, I got my first glove when I was five years old. (6:38) My
dad took me down, and that was pretty expensive then to buy a glove because my dad only made
2
�Ozburn, Dolly
probably forty dollars a week in the mill, and …So he took me down and bought me a first base
mitt, and my brother played first base in high school, so…And he played first base even younger.
And I thought that’s what I wanted to be, but my dad was a pitcher. He pitched for the
Presbyterian—He pitched for the ARP church. All the churches had teams then, and my dad was
a pitcher for the Statesville Avenue ARP Church, and…My brother was a first baseman in high
school, and…So after my dad bought the glove, then we just played around the neighborhood.
We built our own field because we didn’t have any place to play. And I pretty much took all my
dad’s lumber and nails and stuff, and we built a backstop. We built benches for us to sit on. We
built a place for the fans to sit. We didn’t have any fans, but we built it anyway. So we had a
hump in the middle of the field; we couldn’t get that out. So if you were playing shortstop, look
out for the hump because the ball would be coming and you would reach down, and pretty soon
here it comes at your head, so you either had to duck or get your glove up there fast. (7:57) And
there were only about six or eight of us, so you not only played…When you went in to bat, you
were the catcher. The people who were the batters were also the catcher.
Interviewer: “So you’re throwing the ball back if you…”
Yeah, you were throwing the ball back, and if there was a player at home, you’re expected to put
the person out even though it’s your person, your teammate, so…And we had probably a pitcher,
a first baseman, and a shortstop, left fielder, and a second baseman, right fielder, and the left and
right fielder covered the center of the field, too. That’s sort of the way we played. You covered
everything.
Interviewer: “Sure. Now when you were playing, you’re playing with regular baseballs or
softballs or…?”
Well, we were playing with baseballs that other teams had thrown away, and the cover was
partially off. And we would take it and wrap it with electrical tape and play with that. And our
bats were usually bats that were discarded, and we would take some little finishing nails and tack
it back together and wrap it with electrical tape, and those were our bats. So we pretty much
played…We played with baseballs, but we pretty much didn’t have any baseballs, so we took
what we could get and wrapped it in electrical tape.
Interviewer: “Okay, and would you rotate playing different positions then because there
were that few of you?”
You had to play everything because you didn’t know what position you were going to be
playing. “I want to play first base today.” “Okay, you play first base. I’ll play shortstop and
outfield.”
Interviewer: “Okay, and when you started pitching, did you pitch overhand like baseball
pitchers?”
We did. We always threw overhand. It was not softball at all. Then I moved…In the fifth grade,
we moved out sort of in the country, but there was a place in front of us where they had built
some houses like a suburb kind of thing. And we got a team together, and we built our own field
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�Ozburn, Dolly
there, too. We found an open field. We took all the junk out, but this one was flat. It just had
rocks in it that hit the ball that jumped up and hit you if you didn’t catch it. And we built our own
backstop there, too, thanks to my dad and his lumber and nails. (10:02) And then we…We had a
team, and I told my brother. I said, “We have a team, but we don’t have anybody to play.” He
said, “Oh, okay. I’ll talk to…” By that time, he was in high school. He was probably a senior.
And he went and talked to a guy who owned a sporting goods store, and he said, “My
sister…They have a ball team, and they don’t have anybody to play.” So the guy who owned the
sporting goods store knew a lot of people in the county, and he got together the Mecklenburg
County Junior League, and there were six teams, I think. Six or seven teams. And the
Mecklenburg County Junior League was all boys except for me. And I was the only girl in the
whole league. And somebody asked me how the boys feel about that, and I said, “I don’t know.”
I didn’t care, you know. But the boys who were on my team were like brothers. I mean, and I
still see them. Some of them. The ones who are living and their families. And I know their wife,
and we got together. They always played tricks on me like when we were in high school. They
put me up for homecoming queen, which was the last thing I wanted. And they said, “You have
to because you have two escorts. Pinky and Paul are going to escort you.” And I said, “What? I
don’t want them to escort me.” And so I was put up, and I had to get a dress and all of that stuff,
and they did—two of the boys from my team escorted me for the…for the homecoming queen,
which I did not want to be part of. I wasn’t the queen, but I was one of her…
Interviewer: “Her court.”
Yeah, so…Oh boy, that was interesting.
Interviewer: “All right. So how did you do in school? I mean, you were…You mentioned
that you were kind of active and all over the place, but were you able to focus on studies
and do okay?”
Oh, yeah, I did okay in school. Well, probably if it had been my first priority, I probably would
have done better, but playing ball was probably my first priority. (12:10) And we played
basketball in the wintertime, and my dad…In the chicken yard. And all the boys came over to
my house, and we all played basketball. It was all boys. No girls played basketball with us. We
became very good dribblers because it was a chicken yard, and we also…Well, we didn’t
become good rebounders because when you shot the ball and it went through the net, everybody
would duck because it would fly all over, so…But those…And we played football until my dad
made me quit. He said…I got my ear caught in somebody’s pant pocket, and I ripped it down
here a little bit. And he said, “Okay, that’s it. No more football.” You know, so…
Interviewer: “So were all of your sports activities things that were just these informal
things…Well, I guess, in Mecklenburg you had sort of that improvised baseball league. But
the schools didn’t do sports for girls, or…?”
Junior high did, and I played basketball in junior high. That’s all we had. I played basketball,
and…Well, I went to a K through twelve school when I first moved there, and then…Then they
started…They consolidated some of the schools and built a high school, and all we had in North
Carolina at that time was basketball. And that was that split court thing like they have—like they
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�Ozburn, Dolly
had in Iowa for years. And I played all the way through junior high. Well, I signed my contract
to go into the league at the end of the ninth grade. I was fourteen years old, and I signed with
Jimmie Foxx and the Fort Wayne Daisies. I tried out at a field where…I went to all the ball
games there. It was a Class B team that belonged to old Washington senators, and I would go to
all their games. And I saw a sign there that said, “Women’s baseball.” And I said, “Whoa.” And
I think Katie alluded to that because she started in 1951, and they had their spring training in
North Carolina at another town, which I didn’t even know they had it there. (14:20) So I…They
played two teams, and one of them was the Daisies. They played in this ball field in Charlotte,
and I tried out. And I was thirteen, and I was pretty small and pretty young. If I had my boy’s
suit here, I could show you. It’s tiny, you know. And my…They said, “Well, no. You’re too
young. You’re thirteen, and you’re too small.” Well, like I said, I had a growing spurt at thirteen,
so I flew up to…I was then 5’8”. I’m a little shorter than that now, but I was 5’8”. Got to be
5’8”. And then I…So the next year I tried out and signed with Jimmie Foxx and the Fort Wayne
Daisies. Well, that was the end of the ninth grade. When I went into the tenth grade, I could not
play basketball because I was professional.
Interviewer: “Okay, now you…So the summer after ninth grade you went and played for
the team, and you came back to go to high school again?”
That’s right. Came back to high school, and I couldn’t play high school basketball. So I decided
that…”Okay, I can’t play high school basketball.” But our…The parks and recreation in the city
of Charlotte had teams. And I got together all the girls that had been cut off the East
Mecklenburg High School team and some friends of mine, and we played in the county in the
city of Charlotte recreational league. So I could play in the recreational league. We won the
championship, you know.
Interviewer: “Now all of these leagues and teams…This is all segregated at this point? So
it’s all white, or…?” (16:19)
Yes, they were totally segregated. Except the neighborhood that I lived in up until the fifth
grade…I lived primarily in a black neighborhood. My next-door neighbor was black, and the
whole group up there was black. So we did…When I was young, we did have black kids playing
with us all the time. They came down and played with us. They came to my house on Sunday,
and we made—My dad made banana ice cream and pecan ice cream, and they all came down to
the house. And we had a big front porch, and they all came to our house at night and sat on the
porch. And I had a black woman who lived at our house actually. Her husband had died, and her
son was gone. And she was a friend of my grandmother’s, and she lived with us. And her name
was Bert. And Bert used to whack me with the broom when I got out of…Which I was a big
teaser when I was little. Well, I was a big teaser, period. And she would whack me, you know,
with a broom. We’d steal her peach pies off the back porch, and she would come out with the
broom and let us have it.
Interviewer: “All right. Now let’s talk a little bit…Back when you first joined, what’s
the…How does the tryout process actually work?”
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�Ozburn, Dolly
Well, they came to play a game, and I just went. They had me hit, and they had me pitch, and
they had me run. And that was about it. And I was a pitcher, so I was primarily pitching. And I
had developed a curveball, a little slider, and a few other pitches, and I was working on a
knuckleball when the league folded because we had that ten-inch ball. You know, a nice one to
hold. But when we went to the nine-inch, I was working on a knuckleball because then I could
hold onto the ball. (18:08) And so one of the guys we played against, his brother was Hoyt
Wilhelm, and we played against his brother. His brother was my age, so I played against his
brother up at Croft, which is North Carolina, which he’s from. And so I was learning from my
dad and my brother and these guys. I was learning to throw a knuckleball. So I was disappointed
when the league folded and I didn’t get to practice that, but…Yeah, and they had me run, they
had me pitch, and it was primarily my pitching.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so now, once they signed you on, you’re big enough, you can go,
now what happens?”
Well, I think my mom…I had never been away from home in my life. Ever. Not anywhere.
People didn’t have money to travel then, you know. We did…We went to the beach maybe one
week out of the year. Just my mom and I; my dad never went. He liked to work. He didn’t like
going on vacation. So we would go to the beach, but that was it. And my whole family other than
my dad was with us. So, you know, I’d never been away from home. As a matter of fact, I was so
green, I didn’t even know they had maids in hotels to make up beds. I had never stayed in a
motel in my life. So my mother thought that I would get homesick and come back because I’d
never been away from home. And I got homesick just staying with family members. They’d have
to bring me home in the middle of the night. I would think something like somebody was going
to bother my mother and dad. I don’t know what I thought I could do, but, you know. So they’d
have to bring me home. So she thought, “Well, she’d go 800 miles away. I’ll probably…She’ll
probably come home.” I didn’t. And I...My dad, he was all for it, you know. (20:03) “Go. Have
fun.” But he told me something before I left. He said, “Now you’re going to be a rookie.” He
said, “So you’re going to be at the bottom of the barrel again. So you’re going to have to work.”
And he said, “You also…You’re at the bottom of the barrel, and don’t be a smart aleck because
if you are, they’ll eat you alive.” So I sort of remembered that, and he also said, “Now you’re
going away from home, and you don’t have your family there, and we’re far away. We have no
car.” He said, “If you get in trouble, it’s going to be on you because you’ll have to figure out
what to do. It’s on you.” And he said, “Your mom and I tried to teach you right from wrong, and
now we’re going to see if you were listening.”
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when they’re…Now did they have to sign something to allow you
to go?”
Yes, they did.
Interviewer: “All right, and did the league people tell them about the chaperone system
and how they’d take care of you?”
Yes, they did, and that was all in the contract and everything. Yeah, the rules and what you were
supposed to follow and what you were supposed to do and how they took care of you. And they
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�Ozburn, Dolly
did, you know. They were very, very nice to you and that kind of thing. Of course, being young
kids, you know, we were always, especially Katie Horstman and I, were always, you know, sort
of looking for things to get into. Not bad things. Just things to get into. We didn’t get to anything
bad. We just got in, you know.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re joining the Daisies in 1952?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “All right, now what range of people was on the team at that point? Have you
got some older veteran players…?”
Yes. Well, Pepper Paire was on our team, and she was one of the older people. And Tibby Eisen
was on our team. And we had a range from me, which I was the youngest, and I…They wouldn’t
let me come to spring training. Early. I wanted to come early, but they wouldn’t let me because
school wasn’t out. So they said, “No. You have to stay in school.” (22:16) School’s out the day
of my fifteenth birthday, so I left the day after my fifteenth birthday to go to Fort Wayne. And
they were out of town when I got there, so someone met me at the airport and took me to the Van
Orman Hotel, and I stayed there. They took me to their house, and I had dinner with them. And
then they took me—one of the board members—and then we went to the Van Orman Hotel, and
I stayed there. And the next day I joined the girls that I was living with. And I lived with Katie
Horstman, Dolly Brumfield White, Jo Weaver, Jean Weaver, and myself. And all five of us lived
together. And I was the youngest, and I think Jo and Jean and Katie must have been seventeen.
Sixteen, seventeen. Seventeen, maybe? And then I’m sure Dolly must have been eighteen or
nineteen.
Interviewer: “A little older, anyway.”
Yeah, they were all a little older than me. Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right. Now do you remember…So you were playing a regular season
game when you…the first time you play? I mean, has the season started by the time you
join them?”
Yeah, the team had already started, and they were out of town…
Interviewer: “Yeah, right. These are regular games. So how long did it take for you to get
you into a game?”
I don’t remember that. I just don’t. I was sort of a bullpen pitcher the first year and the second
year, and then I pitched in rotation the third year.
Interviewer: “Do you remember the first time you pitched in a game?”
Sort of, sort of. I did…I think Pepper Paire was my catcher. Lois Youngen was my catcher
sometimes, but Pepper Paire was my catcher the first time. And I remember Pepper used to get
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�Ozburn, Dolly
after me about a lot of things, you know. (24:14) So I think Pepper was my catcher the first time
because we had quite a squad because Geissinger, I think, played second base, and Horstman
played, I think, third. And we had Dottie Schroeder as shortstop and Betty Foss on first base,
so…And Jo Weaver, I think, played either right field or left field, and Tibby Eisen, I think, was
in center field. And I can’t remember who was in right field, but one of the players in right
field…Now I can’t remember now. I was fifteen, so I was kind of like trying to find my way.
Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right. Now at that point did the catchers normally call the pitches for
you?”
Yes, they did.
Interviewer: “Okay, you got experienced catchers, so that’s got to help a little.”
Yeah, yeah. Experienced catchers. Yeah. Lois wasn’t…I think…I don’t remember what year she
started. Maybe ’51. But Pepper had been there quite a while, so yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you have problems when you started? Were they hitting
you, or were you wild? Or did you pitch pretty well?”
Well, I was sometimes wild. Yeah, I was sometimes wild, and sometimes I, you know, would
have good days and bad days like all pitchers, but I was sometimes wild. I know I ran a lot of
wind sprints. That I remember. I remember playing pepper and running wind sprints. Wind
sprints. Holy cow, I remember those a lot. And I remember trying to learn a lot about the game,
and when I had Bill Allington, I learned a lot about the game. I learned more about baseball from
Bill Allington than I did anybody. And that was the next year and then when we were on tour.
(26:08) The next year and on tour I learned a lot about baseball from him, but he knew more
about baseball than any coach I’ve ever seen or ever had, you know. When I had Bill.
Interviewer: “Yeah, because Katie Horstman talks about Jimmie Foxx. Of course, he was a
hitter rather than a pitcher.”
Yeah, he was a hitter.
Interviewer: “But there was that part where he was looking at her hand motion and asking
if she had milked cows before. Is that right?”
That’s right. Well, Jimmie used to have…Being a bullpen pitcher and not a starter, I pitched a lot
of batting practice. A lot of batting practice. And when I would pitch batting practice, there was
every once in a while Jimmie would hit. And sometimes he’d hit with just one hand, and he
could knock that ten-inch ball out of the park with one hand. And I would say, “Jimmie, if I pitch
this in there, don’t you hit that back through here.” And he’d say, “I won’t.” I said, “Don’t you
dare.” “Because,” I said, “it would make a hole this big in me, and it would come out the other
side. Don’t you hit it back through here.” And he never did, but I was a little leery of pitching to
him because he could hit that ball so hard, you know. And Jimmie was a good guy. Boy, he
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�Ozburn, Dolly
loved his players, though. I mean, there isn’t anything he wouldn’t do for his players. I mean, he
was just like a dad, you know. Just like a father to us.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and he’d been there in the league from the beginning, hadn’t he? I
mean, he was one of their first players, or…?
No, I think he came with the 1952 season. I think he was hired in the 1952 season.
Interviewer: “All right. I guess the impression one gets from other places was that he was
there earlier, but some of that may be the indirect influence of a somewhat inaccurate
Hollywood film. Because I think they talk about the Tom Hanks character…”
Jimmy Dugan, yeah.
Interviewer: “Being based on him to one degree or another.”
Well, Jimmie wasn’t a screamer or yeller. Karl Winsch… (28:11) He yelled at me a few times. A
lot. Especially one time when I walked Katie. After I was traded, I pitched a game, I guess, in
Fort Wayne. And, of course, I knew all those ladies because I had played with them, and I
walked Katie because she was a good hitter and I was trying to, you know, keep the ball away
from her getting hit. And I walked off the field, and Karl Winsch just screamed at me, “Meet me
at the baseline!” And he let me have it about walking her. “And don’t you walk anybody else!” I
said, “Okay.” But they had a lot of good hitters like Geissinger, Weaver, and Foss and you know.
So I was trying hard not to walk them, you know. I mean, I was trying hard not to let them get
hit, so I was trying to place the ball, and it was…So he screamed. He yelled at me a lot, you
know, but that’s the way it goes. And when they said, “There’s no crying in baseball…” No,
nobody cried. Nobody cried. And I thought to myself, “Okay, you can yell all you want. You’re
not going to make me feel bad or cry, you know.
Interviewer: “All right, so how successful were you as a pitcher?”
Well, I think I was learning a lot. I think, you know…I think I had not pitched—I didn’t pitch in
the boys’ league. I didn’t pitch in the boys’ league, and I think the…When I pitched for Fort
Wayne, I was more or less a pitcher that came in, you know.
Interviewer: “A relief pitcher, sure.”
Yeah, I was a relief. Yeah. And when I pitched regular, I got to be a lot better than I was. Of
course, you do when you pitch regular. And I think my record that last year was eleven and six, I
think. (30:08) And so I was learning batters more. About what they do. And I was learning more
about the game of baseball as I went because when you play, you know, sandlot ball, you just
play, you know. And I was learning a lot more about it, and I was trying to increase the number
of pitches that I had. And so I was learning a lot more about it, but I think, if I remember
correctly, Jan, my teammate, was…The end of the year…I don’t know. I got this thing. I wasn’t
caring whether I was first, second, or third or fourth in the league as far as pitchers were, and I
got this thing. I think she was the first pitcher, and I was second. I’m sure who was third in the
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�Ozburn, Dolly
league, and I think it was Kline. I think Kline was third in the league that last year. So I was
improving, and I wasn’t as good as I wanted to be. Let’s put it that way. I was working on it, and
I, you know, was working on it over the winter. Working on some new pitches and was anxious
to go back.
Interviewer: “Okay. At the time that you came in, had they stopped having the traveling
teams for the younger players, or were there still touring teams?”
No, there were no touring teams for younger players. That had quit. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Right. So the young players, if they’re taking them, they’re going in. They’re
putting them right on the regular teams with everybody else.”
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there was no traveling team. I think there were some teams—local teams—for
younger girls, and I think that they were the Junior Daisies. And I think they still had some of
those teams when I came into the Junior Daisies. But I don’t think there were any junior Blue
Sox when I got to 1954 and got to the Blue Sox. I don’t think there were any junior Blue Sox.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what is daily life like for you when you’re actually in the
league?”
Well, it depends on whether you’re on the road or at home. (32:12) Something funny happened
to me. When Bill came, he was…I was kind of a rookie. It was the second year, but I was still
considered a rookie. And when we came home from playing, he would say, “Practice tomorrow
morning at nine, and I want the infield here. Infield and Vanderlip.” Me. “Okay.” So I’d go to
practice. Next morning it was the outfield and Vanderlip, and the next day it was pitchers and
catchers, which included me. And the next day it was infield, outfield, and Vanderlip. So when
we got home from road trips, pretty soon he would say, “I want the infield.” And I’d say, “And
Vanderlip. Don’t forget Vanderlip.” And everybody would go, “Aw, man.” And then they’d start
laughing, so I said, “Don’t forget to call me.” So he was…And he’d just shake his head, you
know. Bill—he had a good sense of humor, but he was all baseball, all business, you know. And
he’d say, “Outfielders.” “And Vanderlip,” I’d say.
Interviewer: “So you got two years with Fort Wayne: ’52, ’53.”
Yep.
Interviewer: “’52 Jimmie Foxx is your manager. ’53 Bill Allington’s your manager.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then you go to South Bend for ’54.”
Karl Winsch.
Interviewer: “And that’s where Karl Winsch is the manager.”
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�Ozburn, Dolly
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. Got them kind of sorted out. Now I guess you talked a little bit about
the setup they had. You were living in a house, and there were several others rooming there
with you. Now did this belong to one family, or did you rent out the whole house? Or what
was the deal? (34:08)
Well, that was funny. We lived upstairs. There was a family that lived downstairs. And so the
five of us lived together. We did like…We could do our own cooking and stuff because it was
like an apartment, but there was a family that lived downstairs. And I even remember the name
of the street. We lived on Fulton Street. We had somebody…I don’t remember whose car it was,
but we had a ’48 Ford. And we had to go all the way across town to get to the ball field. And so
we used to drive that old Ford. We named it Big Ben, and Big Ben was a black ’48 Ford, one of
those old square jobs, you know. The reason we called it Big Ben was we had a thing in there
that…A Big Ben clock. Because then we could tell how much time we had to go to get to the
ball field. So we could pull Big Ben out and look. “Oh, yeah, we better hurry, you know. We got
to get to the ball field.” So we put Big Ben back in the thing, and so we had Big Ben that we
used to travel back and forth. And at night, we at least did have transportation back home after
we got…We’d get home two, three o’clock in the morning from a road trip, you know. And our
bus driver was Wally, and he was a sweet, sweet guy. Wally was the sweetest guy you ever want
to meet. And if we got too rowdy, he’d say, “Now, girls. Now, girls. You need to settle down.”
And he was just a sweetheart. He was like a grandpa to us, and he was just the sweetest guy you
ever want to meet.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when the league started, there were all kinds of rules and
regulations, and they had the charm school, and you had to wear makeup and all this kind
of stuff. How much of that was still in place when you got there?”
Not as much. We still had to wear dresses everywhere. We couldn’t go in public without having
a dress on. (36:09) If we were invited…I remember there was this one guy that owned a diner
that was one of our supporters, and he always invited us to his diner for dinner. And I have a
picture of that, of all our team at the diner. And we had to wear dresses or skirts to that. Well,
most of the time we wore blouses like this, and we had a tailor in Fort Wayne that—He would
make wrap-around skirts for us, so we could wrap it around. It had a little hole in the thing, and
we’d stick that through and wrap it around us and tie it. And we were ready, you know. So we
had wrap-around skirts. Not all wrap-around skirts. We had some dresses and stuff. But wraparound skirts to wear. And they weren’t as strict with that as they had been in earlier years. And I
remember one of the older ladies saying to me one time, “You know, we had to go to charm
school.” And I said, “That’s okay.” I said, “You know what? We didn’t have to go because we’re
already charming.” She went, “Ugh.” You know, so I would tease them about the fact that they
had to go to charm school, and I’d said, “Well, it didn’t rub off, you know.” So we would tease
them about that fact that they had to go to charm school. But no, they didn’t have charm schools.
Stuff like that.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did they still have chaperones?”
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�Ozburn, Dolly
Yes, we did have chaperones, and they would come in when we dressed. And, you know, in the
movie they showed Tom Hanks coming in, going to the bathroom. That never would have
happened. That wouldn’t have happened. Our chaperone—If the managers wanted to talk to us,
they would say…It would either be after we were all dressed to go on the field. Right before we
went on the field. And the chaperone would say, “Okay, everybody’s dressed. You can come in
and talk to them now.” Or after the game, if we didn’t play well, sometimes Bill would come in
with us, and the chaperone would say, “It’s okay to come in.” And he would come in and talk to
us. (38:11) Well, talk to us. Yeah, I’d have to say talk to us sort of. Talked to us about how we
played and stuff like that. So, Bill, you know, and the other guys, they wouldn’t come in. They’d
never walk into the dressing room like that.
Interviewer: “Okay, now, I guess, when you’re on the road, the chaperones were kind of
looking after you and making sure you’re where you’re supposed to be.”
Yes, yes, and it was kind of funny because we had a time that we were supposed to be in. We’d
go out to eat, and we would come back. Well, in the ‘50s, you know, they had all these great,
big, huge plants and stuff in the…So if we were a few minutes late—because if you were late,
you got a fine—they’d be sitting in the lobby, watching for you to come in, because you had bed
check. And we would sort of wait and hide behind the plant. And when they were looking the
other way, we’d run behind another plant and run behind another plant, so we wouldn’t get
caught coming in. And I think one place…I don’t know if that was Kalamazoo…Where that
was…We talked to the guys who ran the freight elevator, and sometimes we’d run around back,
and they’d take us up in the freight elevator, so we wouldn’t get caught for being late. Because
sometimes you’re five, ten minutes late, you know. It wasn’t like we were staying out all night or
anything. So Lou said she didn’t do that kind of stuff, but, you know, Katie and I and some of the
others…We were a little younger and loose, so we were, you know, a little bit mischievous. But
Bill was pretty strict on that stuff. As a matter of fact, when we were on tour, I got a couple
lectures from Bill. Yep. One the night I met my husband. Well, he was my future husband nine
years later. A whole bunch of us went out. (40:11) We came in, and there was a…And the next
morning…There’s a lot more to the story, but the next morning he sort of gave me a lecture
about being on the road and, you know. And I said, “You know what, Bill? My dad gave me that
same lecture.” And he did. I said, “So you don’t have to worry.” Because we never went out
alone with anybody. We went out as a group, and usually it was a group from the team that we
played and their wives and that kind of thing.
Interviewer: “Of course, if they’re from the team that you played, did they have wives or
husbands?”
No. Now this was when we were on tour. We played men’s teams on tour.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when were you doing—Oh, that’s right because we haven’t gotten
to that part of the story yet.”
No. When we were on tour…Yeah, we were all talking about Bill. Yeah.
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�Ozburn, Dolly
Interviewer: “Okay, now how well did the teams that you played for do? Was it ’52, 3, 4?
Did they have winning seasons, or…?”
Yes. Fort Wayne won the league championship the first year I was there, but we lost in the
playoffs. Fort Wayne won the league championship. Second year we—I think we lost in the
playoffs. Now I was traded to South Bend, and we were second in the league. Fort Wayne and
our team were battling it out, and then we finally lost the league championship. And then we lost
in the playoffs. So we were battling it out with Fort Wayne, first and second, and I think
Kalamazoo won the playoffs that year. Fort Wayne got kicked out in that. And I think they won
the league. Maybe Kalamazoo did. Somebody else won the league.
Interviewer: “But Grand Rapids won the league in ’53.” (42:01)
Okay. No, not…The league or the playoffs?
Interviewer: “Well, the playoffs.”
The playoffs, yeah. Fort Wayne won the league.
Interviewer: “In terms of best record.”
Yeah, yeah. They won the playoffs. And I think Fort Wayne won the league, though, that year.
’53. ’53, I think Fort Wayne won the league, and Grand Rapids won the playoffs. Okay. The next
year, I think, Fort Wayne won the league and Kalamazoo won the playoffs. And we were
battling it out with, I think, with Fort Wayne. The season. We were battling it out with Fort
Wayne for the league championship, and we ended up losing it.
Interviewer: “Okay. You’re playing in sort of the last three years of the league.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Now did you notice changes in attendance, or were there other kinds of
problems coming up?”
Yes, I noticed changes in attendance. I don’t know. I was young, and I wasn’t aware of the…I’m
a person who don’t get involved in the politics and stuff even now. Not international politics
either. But I think South Bend had some big problems, and a lot of players just left. I don’t know
what all the problems were, and I didn’t get into that. I think my son did some research on that
because, as I said, he’s a historian. And I think they were short players, so I think that’s one of
the reasons that I was sent to—traded to South Bend because they needed pitchers. Okay, and
one of my friends said, “Yeah, that’s like being a slave. They can just trade you anytime you
want.” And I said, “Yeah. Yeah, sort of.”
Interviewer: “Well, Major League baseball worked the same way.”
They do that. That’s what I said.
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�Ozburn, Dolly
Interviewer: “Not anymore, but they did then.”
Baseball does that, and football does that too now, you know. You could say, “Okay, I want
more money.” If they won’t pay it, they send you someplace else, or somebody has to pick you
up. (44:07)
Interviewer: “But in those days—I mean, now there’s free agency, and players have room
to negotiate. And in those days, I mean, Major League baseball didn’t have free agents
until Curt Flood. So you were just being treated like them. Now how were you—How well
were you paid?”
I don’t remember exactly what my salary was. It seems like it was like…I’m trying to remember
my contract now. It seems like it was two hundred and something a month. Like that. And one of
the players that I played with—1953—she said, “Yeah, you know what I remember about you?”
And I said, “No, I don’t.” She said…I said, “You’re going to tell me, of course.” And she said,
“Yeah.” She said, “I remember that one time I was running short on money, and I asked you if I
could borrow some money. And you said, ‘Well, I’ll have to cash my last check, and then I’ll
loan you some.’” She said, “You hadn’t even cashed your checks.” I said, “Well…” I was saving
my money for a car. I was sixteen. My parents had no car, so I was saving to buy a car when I
got home. So I think it was two hundred and something. There wasn’t quite three hundred dollars
I made. 275, 280, something like that. But that was a lot of money then because in North
Carolina when you worked in the mill, you were only bringing 40, 45 dollars a week home. And
it seems like four times forty is not what I was making a month. So I thought…And for a sixteen,
fifteen, sixteen-year-old kid that’s a lot of money. Because I worked in the mill when I was in—
the mill across the street from my house—when I was in elementary school. I worked after
school in the mill. (46:10) And on Saturday mornings. And I made fifty cents a week working in
the mill. I worked from the time I was six years old in the mill. Just, you know…They had me do
jobs.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then did the attendance drop?”
The attendance did drop. In South Bend we dropped, and there were a couple of those things
going on. I think the summer I was there Bendix went on strike. Studebaker. That was right
before they moved. They went on strike, and several companies went on strike. And it seems like
in the early fifties…I think we had a downturn in the economy, and baseball on television—
men’s baseball—was beginning to come on television. So, I mean, even though it was maybe
fifty cents, a quarter, fifty cents, a dollar to get into a game, then that was a lot of money. You’re
bringing home forty, forty-five dollars. That’s a lot of money, you know, to pay twenty-five
cents for a program to go to the ball games every night. You know, that seemed like a lot of
money at that point, and people were on strike, so…And they didn’t have all the benefits that
people have—You know, had later.
Interviewer: “Sure. All right, let’s see. Now at what point did you find out that the league
was shutting down?”
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�Ozburn, Dolly
Well, I have a letter. We heard inklings of it when we left. And I had a letter—I think it was
January or February—that said that we’re waiting for Rockford to go. And if Rockford could
go…And I’m sure this is what the letter said. I still have it at home, but it’s been a long time
since I read it. (48:00) If Rockford could make it, and if they decided to go, the league would
still go. And then I got a postal card later, and this must have been right before they would have
gone to spring training. Because I would have been in school and wouldn’t have been able to go.
That the league would not be going again. And I just got a postal card that said that, and I have
that at home yet, too. So we got a letter about January or February that said, yeah, the league
would be going, and I was very happy that it was. And then—it must have been March or
April—that said no. That we wouldn’t be having a league anymore.
Interviewer: “But this didn’t stop your professional baseball career, so what happens
next?”
Well, in 19…I graduated from high school in 1955. So Bill Allington got a team together to take
on the road, and we had a touring team. And they played men’s teams. Well, he sent me a letter
and had me join them in Iowa, and that was 1955, right after I got out of school. And then I got
this letter, and I said, “Sure.” So I packed up and met them in Iowa, and that’s when the touring
team started. And I remember Katie was on the touring team, and at that time Dotty Schroeder
and Betty Foss, but I think she went home before we finished. And I remember one time we were
somewhere, and I think we’d been rained out for like…We got a portion of the receipts, and
sometimes we got as much as three dollars, you know. And then we had to pay for gas, and we
paid for our own meals. And we paid for our hotel—motel room, and we stayed in some real
interesting places. (50:08) You know, really interesting. And I don’t know if the girls remember.
We stayed in one place. I don’t even know if they asked. Someplace in Iowa. And it was one of
these real old hotels that they since probably tore down. And there was a rope. There was a rope
by the radiator. Oh, and we had bathrooms just on the hall. So you had to go—When you went to
the bathroom or you had to go take a shower—a bath. We didn’t have showers. Take a bath. You
had to…I mean, there was one bathroom on the hall probably or two maybe, and so you had to
take turns taking baths. And it was hoping nobody else was in there. And this radiator had a rope
tied to it, and I asked the guy at the desk. I said, “Why is that rope tied to the radiator?” He said,
“Oh, that’s the fire escape.” And I said, “What?” He said, “That’s the fire escape.” So you’d
throw the rope out and go down the fire escape and throw it back up.
Interviewer: “All right, so when you’re touring, as you were saying, you were often playing
men’s teams. Would these be just sort of independent teams or local ones?”
Local. Town teams mostly. A lot of them were made up of college students, and they had the
same deal because I married one of them. They had the same deal where you came to play for a
town team, and they found you a job. Well, that’s what I did in the wintertime. I played
basketball for some team like NAPA. I played for National Auto Parts. Well, they would hire me
on Saturdays because I was working Monday through Friday. They would hire me to play
basketball, and they would give me a job, and then I would play basketball for them. (52:12)
And that was interesting. That’s what these town teams did. They would find them a job, and
they would play for their town team. Like my future husband and I met on tour, played for Van
Horn the year I met him, and he worked at a cement factory. And he played ball for Van Horn,
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�Ozburn, Dolly
and it was very competitive. Oh, extremely competitive. So we would play those teams, and we
would switch batteries, pitcher and catcher. And their pitchers and catchers would come sit on
our bench. The guys. And our pitcher and catcher—because we only had one of each—go sit on
their bench because everybody else had to play. Because we only had eleven players and Bill.
There were twelve of us altogether. And so we would sit on the men’s bench, and then we would
play the game. And we had a…kind of a thing that…where we would act like we would throw
the ball. Sort of a thing around the infield and stuff like that. And then Dotty Schroeder was there
first year, and then Joanie Berger was playing shortstop for them. And they would back his
catcher up against the thing and keep throwing to him and throwing to him. And when he was
back up against the thing, and she would throw it right back and throw as hard—And they
thought he was going to throw it at him, and she’d throw it right above his head up there. Just
sort of a, you know, just a…And we had two baseball clowns that—well, at different times—
went with us, and that was…Jackie Price was one of them. The other one’s name I don’t
remember now. There were two of them that toured the country, and…
Interviewer: “There’s one famous one who’d show up. Max Patkin.”
Max. He was with us one year. Yes, he was with us one year, and he traveled with us. And he
did…Yeah. He was teaching…I think it was Pickles. Yeah, Pickles. To throw two balls. And we
would throw two balls, and we would throw three balls. And we would pitch to him, and he
would hang upside down and bat the ball. And he’d catch a ball in his shirt and in his pants and,
you know, that kind of thing. (54:20) So they did travel—I don’t know if they were with us the
whole season, but they were with us part of it. Jackie Price was one and Max Patkin was the
other one. You know, it was mostly for fun. We weren’t trying to prove anything. We were just
having fun. We loved to play ball. And when I…I think it was 1958. We played in Iowa, and my
future husband played at Van Horn. But his boss at the cement factory told him, “We’re playing
a bunch of girls tonight. Come down.” So he came down, and, I don’t know, somebody was hurt.
I think it was Pickles. Dove into a place and jammed her head. And her neck was hurt, so I had to
play infield that night. So if you had somebody hurt…You either played infield, or you played
pitcher. So you played every night, you know. And I think she…I think it was Pickles that was
injured. So they all sat on our bench. The catcher and—His boss was the catcher, and he sat on
our bench and everything. And I was sitting on the bench, and we got to talking on the bench.
After the game, a whole bunch of us went out. We got to talking, and it was kind of funny. I
didn’t know this until years later, but he said to my future husband, “Invite me to the wedding.
That’s the girl you’re going to marry.” And he said, “No, no.” And he said, “Yes, it is. You’ll
marry her.” And so nine years later we did decide to get married. We didn’t even live in the same
state any of those years. We just sort of kept in touch. (56:15)
Interviewer: “All right, so…But ’58 was your last year touring, right?”
Touring, touring.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so at that point you’re about twenty-one years old now, or…?”
In ’58, I think that was…Yeah, probably about that because I had one more year left of college.
Yeah.
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�Ozburn, Dolly
Interviewer: “Okay, so where were you going to college?”
I went to college at Appalachian State. I think the Yankees call that Appalachian State.
Interviewer: “Actually, these days if we know our schools, we go Appalachian.”
Appalachian. Yes, right.
Interviewer: “That’s how we know it because that’s how they say it.”
That’s right. Go, Appalachian. Yep, and I think since Katie thought we talked funny, I would
still say Appalachian.
Interviewer: “So did you see him multiple times while you were still playing or just that
once?”
Yeah, we just wrote each other occasionally, and then, I think, one time he came to North
Carolina. And one time he was playing for a team in Iowa, and I—a friend and I went up there
and visited one year for about two, three days, until they went on a road trip. And then we came
back home. And then I think I saw him another time later in the 1960s in Iowa. And then a friend
of mine…I went to the University of Iowa for a master’s degree. And then a friend of mine
talked me into going to La Crosse to teach. And I saw him a couple of times then. (58:01) And
then we sort of lost contact, and I guess he called—He found out where I was teaching and called
the head of my department, and the head of my department came in and said, “Some guy called,
and he was looking for you.” And I said, “No.” And he said, “Yeah.” And it was my future
husband, but we didn’t get married right then. We waited a couple years yet, so it was nine years.
And, as my friend put it, the length of a baseball game: nine innings.
Interviewer: “So how old were you when you got married?”
Thirty. Yeah, I was too busy.
Interviewer: “That’s very common these days. It was probably more unusual then.”
It was very unusual then because my family always thought, “She’s never getting married. She’s
never getting married.” So they told me that.
Interviewer: “All right, now did you basically go to college and then teach for a while and
then get a master’s?”
Yes, I taught for a while, and then I…
Interviewer: “So after you got your degree at Appalachian State, where did you teach?”
My dad developed heart trouble. Well, he had heart trouble, and he had a few problems with his
heart. So I went back home to teach, to help my mom because he had a small business by that
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�Ozburn, Dolly
time. And she had to go run that, and I went home to help them, you know, with things.
(1:00:07) So I taught at an elementary school, and actually it was the school where I went to
junior high school. And it had the same principal, so I knew him pretty well. So I went there to
teach a couple years, and I taught elementary physical education. And then I told my dad that I
thought I would go back to get a master’s degree, and I went back. And then my dad had two
heart attacks in the fall, so I dropped out and went back home to help them. And I just had some
part-time jobs that year while I was helping them. And then I…My dad passed away in 1964. So
then I went back to school full-time and finished my master’s degree. I went summers, and then I
finished my master’s degree in 1965. And while I was home I had part-time jobs the first year I
dropped out. Then I got a full-time job at a high school, and I taught high school and coached
basketball. Now at night when it wasn’t basketball season, during the summers, I played softball
for NAPA. They got me a job in the summer because we didn’t make much money. I think my
first teaching job was $1,100 a year, and so I had to work in the summer. They got me a job, and
I played softball for them.
Interviewer: “Okay, so where did you get your high school teaching job after the master’s
degree?”
I taught in Gastonia, North Carolina. (1:02:00) As a matter of fact, one player came from there.
They called her Rebel. She came from Gastonia, and I didn’t know her, though. I met her once, I
think. And I taught at a place called Holbrook High School. And I taught physical education and
biology, which was my other major, and health education, which was my other major. So I
taught those three things at the high school. I had the Girls Athletic Association, and that was a
group that—where all the girls participated. And I coached basketball because basketball was the
only sport that we had. But the Girls Athletic Association…I must’ve had—We had probably
five hundred girls in that school, and I think I had 410 in the Girls Athletic Association because
we did a variety of activities. And they had to earn points to do special trips. Our special trip as a
freshman was a bicycle ride, the sophomores, I think, we went on a special hike, the juniors went
on an overnight—a weekend camping trip in the mountains, and the seniors went on an overnight
weekend camping trip at the ocean, at the beach. So they wanted to go on those trips, and so we
had tons of girls. And we had everything. We had co-ed bowling, co-ed volleyball. Volleyball,
bowling for girls. And we had a lot of co-ed programs. And the boys wanted to start a BAA, a
Boys Athletic Association. I said, “No, no, no, no, no. I got a lot to handle now, guys.” But we
did incorporate more, and the kids ran the programs. (1:04:02) I made sure the kids were doing
their jobs, and they ran the programs. And we all learned a lot by that. And then I coached girls’
basketball too as well. And then in the winters when I didn’t teach high school…Before I taught
high school, I would play basketball myself, and I earned money that way because when I played
basketball, I played for a team. But on the weekends they had tournaments, and the team could
pick up two people. And I got picked up to play every weekend, and I made ten bucks a game.
So if we played four games and won a championship, I made forty bucks a weekend, which is a
lot of money. You know, back then that was a lot of money. And in the summers, after school
was out, I played softball. The same deal. I would get a job somewhere, play for their softball
team, get picked up on the weekends to play for other teams when we didn’t have tournaments,
and I made ten bucks a game. So I was making probably forty dollars a week working in a
factory pulling automobile parts and forty dollars on the weekends playing in tournaments. So
that’s sort of how I made my money.
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�Ozburn, Dolly
Interviewer: “All right, now how do things change once you get married?”
Well, they change quite a bit because I was thirty years old. And when I was in college, I was
coaching field hockey, fencing. Field hockey and fencing. And the seasons kind of overlapped,
and we didn’t have…When I was teaching there, we did not have coaches. We had team sports
because we did not have intercollegiate sports. Title IX had not gone through yet, and I was very
disappointed about that. And I’m glad that the girls have Title IX now because we didn’t have an
opportunity to do that, and the girls that I coached didn’t. So I coached field hockey in the fall,
and I had never played field hockey until I was in graduate school because we didn’t have it in
the South. But I played for the University of Iowa. (1:06:26) And I had to be a quick study
because—Boy, I learned a lot that first year, especially after those wings passed me and spun me
around a few times, you know. They were fast, so I had to figure out how to beat them to the
ball. And that was interesting too because one of my teams got to go to the nationals. And while
I was there, one of the officials was Gertie Dunn who played in our league and with whom I was
friends in South Bend. She played shortstop for South Bend. So I got to see Gertie, and I said,
“Hey, Gertie.” “Lippy, what are you doing here?” I said, “Oh, what are you doing here?” You
know, and it was like we’d never been apart, you know. So I got to see Gertie, and that was
great. I got to run into people I knew. So when I got married, I was still teaching there and still
coaching and everything. And so I think I was so bogged down that I said, you know…I talked to
the head department, and I said, “We want to start a family, and I think I am going to have to
give up my teaching job to do that. I have no time. No time.”
Interviewer: “Now did your husband come to North Carolina then?”
No, my husband came to Wisconsin. I was teaching in Wisconsin. Yeah, I was teaching college
then. So I taught high school while I was getting my master’s degree, then I took a year off and
got my master’s degree, and then I went straight to Wisconsin to teach. (1:08:03) A lady who
was getting her PhD there talked me into coming to Wisconsin. Otherwise, I’d interviewed at
Syracuse and a few other places, and she talked me into coming to Wisconsin. And then my
husband called the head of the department—well, my future husband—and found me. Then in a
couple years we got married. Actually, after he found me, I went back home for the summer after
my first year of teaching there, and he came down and visited. And we took my nephews on a
backpacking trip on the Appalachian Trail, and that’s when we decided, “Well, maybe we better
get married before we make a mistake and marry somebody else.” So then we said, “In another
year we will plan the wedding. We’ll plan the wedding this next year, and we’ll tell everybody
we’re getting married.” So then I was at UWL another year, and then we decided that we wanted
to start a family. And I was so bogged down at UWL, by April I was a zombie because our field
hockey went clear through into December, and my fencing team started before that and went
clear through until April. So I was overlapped and that kind of thing.
Interviewer: “Right, and so you went to your department chair. And you were starting on
that and got sidetracked because you were talking about being so bogged down. And were
you going to have to stop teaching? Was that the idea?”
Yes. Yes, I was bogged down, and I was going to have to quit teaching there. And he didn’t want
me to. He said, “Sure there isn’t anything I can do?” And I said, “No.” And it was kind of a sad
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�Ozburn, Dolly
situation because he and his wife wanted…He said, “You realize you may want to start a family,
but that may not happen.” Because that’s what happened to them. (1:10:07) They lost several
children, and they couldn’t have anymore. And at that time you didn’t have the medical facilities
you have now and the medical…And he said, “I hope that doesn’t happen to you.” So he was
worried that, you know…And so I have a son and a daughter, and they were born, you know, in
1971 and 1974. And from that point I went to the YWCA to work as a program director, and I
was there for thirteen years. And recently I’ve been working at a school district riding the bus
with four-year-olds, which is a riot, you know. And I do a lot of—I try to do a lot of speaking
about the league. I love elementary school. I love to speak to elementary schools, and I speak to
junior high schools, softball teams. I spoke to a couple—Well, I’ve been to a lot of senior
citizens’ homes because they show them the movie because that’s their era, you know, and when
I come in, they’re all prepared for it. And they say, “You don’t look old enough.” I said, “I was
at the last of the league, not the first, you know.”
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you stay in touch with many of the people that you’ve played
with, or…?”
Well, I went to the first reunion in Chicago, and I met Lou there. Lou Erickson Sauer. And didn’t
know that I lived near her because we hadn’t gotten together. Now Mary Froning O’Meara. I
knew that she lived in Madison because when I was coaching field hockey, we played Madison.
And I had found her. (1:12:04) And I went over to visit her while we were there. So I had talked
to Mary O’Meara, and I knew that Lou lived near me. So we started doing some things together
like going to signings and stuff like that. And so I got to know her family real well. And so we
did a lot of stuff together. And O’Meara—We did keep in touch some, and once in a while, I
kept in touch with Lois Sheldon because she wrote some articles for softball tournaments and
softball rulebooks and stuff like that. And I was using those when I was teaching, so we sort of
kept in touch that way. But lost contact with most of them over the years. I guess you get busy
with your life and, you know…
Interviewer: “Okay, now when they made the film, A League of Their Own, they were
trying to get a lot of the players back together. Were you involved in any of those things?”
Yes, I did go to Illinois, and that was kind of fun. Horsey was there, so Horsey and I picked on
each other while we were there. And O’Meara—Actually, we picked her up. I picked her up at
her home in Madison, and she went with me down there. And then we contacted Katie because
they’re from the same town. And so we got together there, and that was interesting meeting the
people. And I thought that they were doing a really, really good job on the movie, and it was
interesting meeting the people who were in the movie. And I had gotten a newspaper article from
my sister-in-law—I hadn’t seen it—that said that there was a movie star who was picked to play
the part of Dottie, which Geena Davis played. But she quit, and I asked one of the producers. I
said, “Why did she quit?” She walked out. And she said, “Well, when they signed Madonna, she
wouldn’t work with Madonna.” And I said, “Really?” And she said, “Yeah.” And I said, “Well,
that’s too bad because I kind of liked her as a movie star, and I think she’s pretty
athletic.”(1:14:32) And he said, “Yeah, but she’s hard to work with.” He said, “But you will like
who we have. I’m sure you will. We can’t tell you who it is.” Because they hadn’t signed her
when we were in Illinois. “But we will let you know as soon as we sign her.” And I saw
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�Ozburn, Dolly
something on the news. It was an interview with Tom Hanks, and they said that Tom Hanks
contacted Penny Marshall and wanted that part. And I said, “Really? He wanted that part?
You’re kidding.” And he wanted to play that part, so I guess he contacted them. They hadn’t
signed him either when we were in Illinois. They were still working on it, and I saw they made
changes in it as they met us there. And we had breakfast, lunch, and dinner with them, and they
were rotating tables and talking to all of us. And I think they got, you know…I think they wanted
to get a feel for what we were like.
Interviewer: “Well, they were doing their jobs. Make a historical film? Do some research.”
Yes, they were doing their search. And I don’t know how they found a Holiday Inn with three
ball fields right outside the door, but that’s where we were. There were three baseball fields right
there, and we hit fun goes. And they told us to play a game, but we mostly were horsing around,
you know. We were playing, but, you know, teasing each other. You know, holding people on
base and that kind of thing.
Interviewer: “All right, now after the movie came out, did that turn you into a local
celebrity or anything like that?”
Yeah. In La Crosse, I had a friend who was on the La Crosse Tribune, and her job was to write
stories about people in the area. (1:16:21) And she did. She wrote several articles, and I used to
go out to dinner with her. And she had a real good sense of humor. She was funny. We used to
tell stories, and people would pull their chairs over to our table to listen. And so, yes, then I
started getting requests to come and speak from the rotary club and from the Lions and from this
group and that group. And as a result of that, I was picked to be—which is a pretty big deal in La
Crosse—is picked to be Maple Leaf parade marshal, and that’s for their Oktoberfest, which is a
pretty big deal in La Crosse, you know. And actually is known fairly wide in the Midwest
particularly. And a lot of things have happened as a result of that movie, you know. We were
inducted into the Wall of Honor, you know, and I met a lot of the ballplayers that I wouldn’t
have met. Andy Pafko was inducted with us, and it was fun talking to him. And he talked about
the home run that was hit by Thompson—went over his head and won the World Series—and the
story he told was unbelievable. He said, “I have played outfield all my life.” It went over his
head by the way. And he said, “That ball was coming down. I know it was coming down.” He
said, “I wasn’t drinking, I wasn’t on dope, and I wasn’t hallucinating. And I’ve played outfield
all my life.” (1:18:05) And he was telling the story to us. He said, “I went under the ball, and it
was coming down. I had my glove ready. And I thought, ‘Oh man, we got this series tied up. Oh
boy.’” You know, and he said—I won’t tell you what he said, but he said, “When I saw that
ball…” He said, “I don’t know what happened, but it hit an updraft or something.” He said, “The
ball was coming down, I was under it…” And he said, “Oh my god, that thing’s…” He didn’t
say that, but he said, “That’s going over my head.” So he said, “I turned around. I ran back
against the wall. I put my back against the wall, and I’m looking, and it’s still going.” He said, “I
didn’t believe it.” He said, “That ball was coming down, and I knew it was coming down.” He
said, “I played outfield all my life, and that ball was coming down.” And I said, “Yeah, right.”
He said, “No, it was.” And I tell that story to people, and they said, “I’ve never heard that.” I
said, “No, that’s what Andy told us. When we were inducted into the Wall of Honor, he was
21
�Ozburn, Dolly
telling us that story.” And then he said some colorful words when he was against the wall and
said, “That just cost me seven thousand dollars.” Which was a lot of money then.
Interviewer: “That would have been his World Series bonus?”
Yes, yes, and he said…That’s the first time I’d ever heard that story, and nobody ever said that. I
never heard it anywhere. And he told us that story when we were inducted. So those are the kinds
of things that this movie has brought to us, that we have met a lot of people who are fantastic
people. And we have done a lot of things that we never would have had the opportunity to do,
you know.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so there’s…My kind of closing question here is one that in
different ways you’ve been answering kind of all along, but how do you think your time in
the league affected you, or what did you take out of that?”
Oh my gosh, you have a couple more hours? Okay, all of the women that I played with were
older than me. (1:20:08) I went back to high school, and high school just didn’t seem right. I’d
been on my own at play. Well, I did a dumb thing like sixteen-year-olds do. I told my dad…I
was sixteen, and, you know, sixteen-year-olds, they don’t always think very well. And high
school was just a whole different ball game for me, and I thought, “Man, what am I doing in
school?” You know, so I told my dad, “Okay. Dad, I’m going to quit school.” “Okay,” he said,
“that’s fine.” And I thought, “Uh oh. When he agrees with something like that right away,
something’s wrong.” So the next morning—We live way out in the country, and the only way he
got to town to his job was he caught a county bus that came by that bus stop at six o’ clock in the
morning. And you better be out there at a quarter to six because you might not catch it. So five o’
clock my dad came in and said, “Wake up.” And I said, “Why? It’s five o’ clock in the
morning.” He said, “Well…” He said, “You said you’re not going to school today.” He said, “If
you live in this house, you have to have a job, or you go to school, or you move.” He said, “Now
your mom has breakfast ready, you have to get ready, and she has the only job in this house. And
I’m not firing her, so you got to go get a job today.” And I said, “Oh, well, I’m used to working
anyway. I’ve been working since I was six years old.” So it didn’t bother me. (1:22:00) I said,
“Oh, okay.” He said, “Well…” He said, “So you got to get up, and you have to be ready.” And I
said, “But the unemployment office doesn’t open until nine o’ clock.” He said, “Well, you’ll be
first in line.” He said, “Unless you plan on walking sixteen miles to town.” And I said, “No.” He
said, “Then we have to be at the bus stop.” And I thought that over, and I thought, “Well, now
I’m dumb, but I’m not stupid.” And I said, “Well, no, I think I’ll go to school.” He said, “I’m
going to call your mom when the bus leaves to go to school, and you better be on it.” And I said,
“Okay.” And the funny part of that is when I told my dad I’d save some money going to graduate
school, he said, “Man, I kept you in school. Now I can’t get you out.” So that was the way it was
at our house. You either work, or you go to school, you know. That’s your only choice, or you go
out on your own. Well, at sixteen, I think, “Well, I’ve been out on my own, but I don’t think I
want to do that.” And so I went back to school, but that was kind of a—sort of geared my life.
But school wasn’t the same. My class was two hundred and some people, and, you know, you
have these…In high school, you have sort of cliques here and there, but I was never a clique-y
person. And I had bought my own car because of the league, and I could take my mother and dad
where they needed to go. And then I had worked, so I could keep my car up because my dad said
22
�Ozburn, Dolly
he wasn’t keeping it up. “It’s not mine. It’s yours.” So all of those things, and then…So I was a
kind of independent person. (1:24:02) I would do things and say, “If anybody wants to go with
me, they’re welcome to go. And if you don’t, fine. Stay home. If I want to do something, I do it,
and anybody’s welcome to go.” And I was sort of an independent person. I didn’t, you
know…Didn’t have a little—Except for the guys I ran around with that was on my team when
we were younger. I didn’t have any really little, little clique-y things that I did. I just sort of did
what I did, and most of the time it was evolved around baseball, basketball, football, or
something. And I used to take a lot of the football players who were my friends—their mothers
to the game. So I would go pick their mothers up, and we would all go to the game—and my
friends—and we’d all go together. So it was…High school was…I think it totally changed my
life that way. I think I was a lot more relaxed and open to other people’s opinions and other
people’s…the way they lived and stuff because in order to live with a group of people, you
know, you can’t be so obnoxious. And I think those girls would have got me in—straightened me
out right away if I had gotten too bad, you know.
Interviewer: “So the whole thing kind of launched you in a direction where you’re
confident, you’re independent, you think for yourself, and just go forward.”
That’s right. My confidence was great, and I think totally it helped my relationships with people.
Totally. I mean, I came back a whole different person than I was because, I mean, you have to be
a little—you have to be flexible. And I think too that I developed a whole different personality. I
think I laughed more, and I joked more because if you didn’t joke and protect yourself, you were
in trouble, you know. You had to get smart with the smart remarks. You had to, you know…And
people like that, you know. (1:26:19) It’s different. We were talking about that. When you’re
with the ball team, you’re not always PC, you know. And you say things, and they look at you.
And shoot one back at you, you know, and I think that’s what I loved about playing ball, was
we…You know, we were constantly saying things and looking at each other. “Yeah, right.” You
know, and giving one back. And I think that changed my whole outlook on things. I think my
confidence and the fact that I loved to give people, you know, trouble. And I still love it, but
sometimes I get myself in trouble because people are a little more PC than they were, you know.
And sometimes I do get myself in trouble that way, but Katie and I—We’re used to trouble. Like
my daughter sent me flowers on my birthday, and she was on a trip. And she sent me one with a
balloon that said, “Happy birthday, you old buzzard.” And I thought, “Oh boy. That’s it.” So I
made myself a buzzard suit, and I met her at the airport in a buzzard suit. And she went, “Ahh!”
like that, and she was so embarrassed. And I was in a buzzard suit, and everybody laughed.
There were four or five planes coming in. Airport was packed. They all turned around and
looked, and then they started laughing. So, I mean, you know, things like that. I learned to do
things like that.
Interviewer: “I’m not sure there’s going to be a good way to top that one, so I think I will
just close this out by saying thank you very much for coming in and sharing your story.”
Oh, sure. Oh, sure. (1:28:12)
23
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_OzburnD1970BB
Title
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Ozburn, Dolly (Interview transcript and video),2016
Creator
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Ozburn, Dolly Vanderlip
Description
An account of the resource
Dolly Ozburn was born in Charlotte, North Carolina, in June 1937. At the end of the 9th grade, at the age of 14, she signed a contract with the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League team, the Fort Wayne Daisies in 1952. She played with the Daisies in 1952 and 1953, and played with the South Bend Blue Sox in 1954, the final year of the League. After the League’s end, she played with a travelling team created by Bill Allington (a former manager). Dolly played with the non-professional team from 1955 through 1958 before ultimately leaving organized baseball to attend college. She went on to be a physical education teacher and a coach, and collaborated with the filming of, A League of Their Own.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Indiana
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2016-10-21
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1f39d09c91fda9f7464146ea7fdab897.m4v
62854e5bedda8fad4df04af09e117c0b
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78cb98fbfdcff1b0ff86220ecc9f606c.pdf
556289ff7ac13bbaf15ff349a4947d5c
PDF Text
Text
O’Dowd, Annie
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Annie O’Dowd
Length of Interview: (41:09)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “Okay, now start us out with some background on yourself, and to begin with,
where and when were you born?”
Okay, I was born in Chicago in 1929, which is ages ago.
Interviewer: “Sure, it was. Now did you grow up in Chicago, or did you move around?”
I grew up in Chicago and moved out, well, when I started playing ball.
Interviewer: “Okay. What neighborhood of Chicago were you living in?”
I was on the south side of Chicago.
Interviewer: “Okay, that’s still a pretty big area. Is there a particular neighborhood within
that that had a name that you remember?”
I don’t remember the name, but it was around 59th and Kedzie.
Interviewer: “Okay, so it’s not all the way west of Hyde Park and places like that.”
Oh, yes, west of Hyde Park. Kedzie was 3200, I think. West.
Interviewer: “Okay, so it’s kind of southwest side of the city.”
Right. (1:06)
Interviewer: “All right, and what did your family do for a living when you were growing
up?”
Well, my dad was the only one that worked. Mom stayed home. He was a driver for the Chicago
Tribune, and that was all the income we had until I started playing ball. And then I got my
paychecks playing ball. I sent them right home to Mom.
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�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Okay. How did you learn how to play baseball?”
Well, my brother was fairly athletic, and we used to, you know, throw the ball back and forth,
back and forth. And we’d run up and down the street, and of course I played with all the boys on
the street. And that’s how I learned to play ball.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did the boys just let you do all the same things they did, or did
they make you only do certain things?”
Well, I was kind of the boss. Whether they liked it or not, I really don’t know, but I was kind of
the leader of our street, which was Troy Street, Chicago. (2:11) And I became kind of a leader
when I played professional ball.
Interviewer: “Okay, now you’re growing up, you’re playing in the street...Now were there
organized sports for girls in the schools or churches or parks?”
Well, when I was growing up, there wasn’t any organized ballplaying. You’d go to the park and
play and play in those games, but there wasn’t any really organized ballplaying.
Interviewer: “Okay, now there were kind of semi-pro softball teams. There were teams
that women played on in Chicago in that period.”
Yes, there were. The Chicago Bloomer Girls and the Bluebirds, I think, and I don’t know. Can’t
remember the name of the other teams that they had there, but I did go to some of the ball games,
and they had—I don’t know. A team like bigger, bigger women than we were. I remember the
Savona Sisters, and they were big and broad and tall and heavy. I mean, they were heavy. They
were sturdy women. And yeah, I used to go to watch them play.
Interviewer: “Okay, now you’re growing up in the period of the Depression and World
War II. Do you know if your father had sort of steady work through the ‘30s?”
Oh, yes, he had steady work, and I remember getting food stamps during the wartime for sugar
and meats.
Interviewer: “Oh, yeah, because you had the ration cards and all of that.”
Right, right, right. I remember going to the butcher store, you know, handing over my little
tickets.
2
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Right. Okay, now did you finish high school?”
Oh, yes.
Interviewer: “And what year did you graduate?”
Oh, 1947.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do after you graduated?” (4:11)
After I graduated, a friend of mine—You know, we’re looking for jobs, and we weren’t skilled at
anything that would be—take place in an office. So we had to work in a factory. Worked in a
box factory, which was—It was pretty hard work, but that’s what I did for how many years.
Don’t remember that, but then I did get a job in an office for Campbell’s Soup.
Interviewer: “Okay, so how did you wind up becoming a professional baseball player?”
Well, I read in the paper that there were tryouts at this Marquette Park, which I lived probably a
mile, and so I thought, “I think I’ll go over and try out.” I wanted to be a first baseman, but the
gentleman that was running the tryouts said, “I think you have the stature of being a catcher.” So
I became a catcher, which I loved.
Interviewer: “Okay, now had you played catcher periodically?”
Oh, no, never. Never in my life.
Interviewer: “Okay, now had you continued to play those pickup games even after high
school? So were you still actively playing at the time you tried out?”
Oh, sure. With the boys.
Interviewer: “Okay, so that was going on even though you’re getting to be close to twenty
years old. But there’s still people out there playing.”
Right, right.
Interviewer: “Okay, and your preferred position was first base.”
That’s what I wanted to be. Yeah, first baseman.
3
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have some experience in other positions?”
No, none. None at all.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you never played outfield, or…?” (6:05)
No, you played wherever you needed to be, and that’s the position I would play.
Interviewer: “Okay, so why did you like first base?”
It was full of action, and I wanted to be in on everything. But being a catcher, you’re in on
everything. Everything, everything.
Interviewer: “Yeah, now you’re calling the game.”
Right, and you’re in charge. I guess I like being in charge.
Interviewer: “All right, so the scout there or whatever—the person running this—they’ve
seen that. Unless it was just exactly how tall you were or something, and said, ‘Oh, you
should be a catcher.’”
Yes, because I had that sturdy build. I was a little heavier than I am now, and he looked at me
and said, “Oh, no, you’re going to be a catcher.” So then I was.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you went to this tryout, about how many women do you
think were there?”
Good question. I would say between twenty-five and fifty.
Interviewer: “Okay, so a reasonable number of people. Now were a lot of them softball
players, or do you not know?”
Probably all of us were softball players.
Interviewer: “Okay, so were you playing softball, too?”
Oh, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, and was that still just the unorganized games?”
4
�O’Dowd, Annie
Right, unorganized games.
Interviewer: “All right, but when you were playing with the guys, were you sometimes
playing baseball rather than softball?”
No, mostly softball.
Interviewer: “Okay, so your experience is in softball, but—So when you were actually
trying out for the baseball, were they using now regulation sized baseballs, or was the
league all the way there yet, or…?”
No, the size of the ball was ten inches when I played, and you get used to playing with whatever
size it is. (8:02)
Interviewer: “Sure, because I think a standard baseball is nine inches, but softball in
Chicago was as big as sixteen.”
Oh, yes, and that was Chicago ball. They called it Chicago ball, which was what my brother
played on, and he was very good. But that was a great game, Chicago ball.
Interviewer: “Yep. All right, so this is spring of ‘49 now that you’re trying out?”
Mm-hmm.
Interviewer: “Okay, and do they tell you right away that they’re taking you, or do you have
to wait?”
I think they said I made the team, and I was very excited and went home and told my parents.
And I waited until whatever was coming next.
Interviewer: “So what does come next?”
Well, next they said, “We’re going to go to spring training.” And I can’t remember exactly
where that was, but I had to go away. It was out of town.
Interviewer: “Did you go south for spring training?”
It wasn’t very, very far away. I believe it was south.
Interviewer: “But it wasn’t like North Carolina or Florida or some place like that.”
5
�O’Dowd, Annie
No, no, no. No, no, no.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, that’s the kind of thing that gets looked up because it did move
around quite a bit, and it was done different ways in different years.”
Yes, right. I never got—When I saw the film, there were a lot of ballplayers. Everybody was in
one place. When I went to spring training, it wasn’t that way. There were, you know, just a
couple of teams.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what team were you assigned to, or did you not have a team yet?”
Well, when I first started, it was the traveling team, and I was on the Chicago Colleens.
Interviewer: “Okay, now explain a little bit what the traveling teams were.”
Oh, that was so much fun. It was really a lot of fun. You get in the bus, and you go to your
destination. And we traveled to twenty-seven states in all, but it was fun riding the bus. (10:10)
You’d sing and try to sleep and stop to go to the bathroom, and it was just a load of fun.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the purpose of these teams? Because these are not the
regular league teams.”
No, this was like a—What do they call it in real baseball?
Interviewer: “Minor League?”
Minor League. Thank you. Minor League, and, you know, you just play ball, and when they
thought you were good enough, they’d send you up to the big leagues.
Interviewer: “All right, because you had to kind of make the transition to playing,
essentially, baseball rather than softball. Now were you older than a lot of the other players
on those traveling teams?”
Maybe a year or two.
Interviewer: “Okay, because some of them talk about joining when they’re in their midteens.”
Oh, no, I wasn’t that young.
6
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Yeah, but some of them, you know, may have been. Okay, but you didn’t feel
like you were a whole bunch older than they were.”
Oh, no, not at all.
Interviewer: “All right, now you’d go to a particular town on this tour, and then what
happens?”
Well, they put us up in a hotel. You’d go to your room, and then they’d tell you what time we
were going to play ball the next day, and we would prepare for that. And the rest of it was, you
know, do what you want, but you have to be back in your room by such and such time because,
you know, there was a curfew.
Interviewer: “Right, yeah. Now the league is sort of famous for having a lot of rules and
regulations to govern what the player did, so which of those rules were still in place when
you joined?”
Well, the rules were you had to be in your room by such and such time. You could never wear
slacks or anything. You always had to be in a skirt, which was not much fun, because today’s
day and age, everybody wears long pants. (12:07) And the skirts were pretty hard to play in
because, you know, you would get slide, and you would get strawberries, and that wasn’t any
fun. But if your arm was sore or anything, the chaperone would come and give you a nice
rubdown. And there were times when you didn’t have a sore arm, but you still wanted a
rubdown, and that was the good part.
Interviewer: “And then were there rules about—Did you have to wear makeup when you
were out in public or that kind of thing?”
Well, we didn’t have to wear makeup, but we had to be ladylike, and I did go to charm school.
Interviewer: “I thought that the charm school had ended. It goes out at some point, but
now were they doing the charm school when you were doing spring training, or…?”
Yes, they had charm school when it was spring training. And yeah, you had to walk around with
the book on top of your head. You had to learn to sit like a lady and walk like a lady. It was very
good for you. Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right, now did you have any troubles transitioning from softball to
baseball, or was that easy?”
7
�O’Dowd, Annie
Well, at that age it would be easy. Yeah, you didn’t even think about it. You just did it. It came
automatically, really.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what about learning to play catcher?”
Well, that was something altogether new to me, and it wasn’t easy. The hardest part was keeping
your eyes open when a bat was coming into sight. You know, you’d go like this, and if they
popped it up, you didn’t know where the ball was. So you learned how to keep your eyes open.
(14:01)
Interviewer: “Okay, now did they have you calling pitches, or…?”
Oh, yes. There weren’t that many pitches as there are today, but there were some.
Interviewer: “Well, what would pitchers normally throw?”
Fastballs. Normally they would throw fastballs. They would throw curves.
Interviewer: “So at that level, it was—Normally they would just throw fastballs, and then
would you call for location, or…?”
Oh, yes, you’d call for location. And they did have curveballs and changeups and knuckleballs,
but there weren’t any sliders or those types. We didn’t have that.
Interviewer: “Okay, and was there more variety of pitches when you actually got to play
with the regular teams? Did you now have pitchers who could do more things?”
No, I don’t think so. I think it was what you learned at spring training is what you brought to the
big leagues.
Interviewer: “Okay, now how long did you stay with the traveling team? Was it a full
season?”
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yeah, that was a full season, which the seasons weren’t that long.
Interviewer: “And what part of the country were you traveling around in?”
Mostly Midwest and east. Oh, we’d go south, too. We were in South Carolina, and east, we were
in New York, and then the Midwest. (16:03)
8
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of audiences did you attract?”
Oh, there were good, good audiences. There were—I don’t know. I would say maybe five
thousand people per game.
Interviewer: “Which is pretty good even today for a lot of Minor League teams, so...Okay,
and you were getting that back then. All right, and did you get local press coverage at all?
Did you ever get interviewed?”
Yes. No, I didn’t get interviewed, but they did take a lot of pictures. And I was on one of the
brochures that they’d put up for a game, and that was nice.
Interviewer: “All right, now when you’re thinking about the time that you spent with the
traveling team, are there any particular memories or things that stand out for you?”
On the traveling team? For myself?
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
Yes, there was one day I was playing, and it was very hot. And it was a doubleheader, and I had
to catch both games. And somebody hit a popup, and I went for it. And I lost it in the sun, and
the ball came right down on my eye. And I had a big shiner, but I continued to play.
Interviewer: “Yeah, they might have taken you out today, but you stayed in.”
No concussion.
Interviewer: “Okay, that’s good anyway. All right, so you did one season essentially with
the traveling team.”
You would say that, maybe. I think maybe a year and a half.
Interviewer: “Okay, because we have your dates recorded as sort of ‘49 through ‘51. That
includes the time with the traveling teams?”
Yes. (18:08)
Interviewer: “Okay, so what were they paying you at that point? Do you remember?”
9
�O’Dowd, Annie
It was...God, I can’t remember these things. I think I got a salary of $105 a week, and traveling
money...Oh my god. Three dollars a day for food. And I thought, “Three dollars a day for food?
That’s a lot of money.”
Interviewer: “What would that buy?”
Oh, you could go to a restaurant—twenty-five cents for a hamburger, five cents for a Coke—and
it was cheap back then.
Interviewer: “Okay, now eventually you go to the big leagues, basically, and what team did
you play for first?”
The Rockford Peaches.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when you got there, were you a reserved player, or did you start
catching right away?”
No, I was second string—reserved—because I was a rookie. And I didn’t like sitting on the
bench. For sure. But, you know, I did my sitting out and finally got to catch on a regular basis.
Interviewer: “Okay, now who was pitching for that team at that time?”
Oh, too hard of a question.
Interviewer: “All right. How was life different when you’re playing on one of the regular
teams than it was on the traveling team?”
Well, actually the traveling team was more fun, and we were closer together. And when I went
up to the big leagues as they call it, I didn’t really know anyone. (20:03) So it’s kind of hard.
Interviewer: “And what kind of living situation did you have?”
They arranged for us to stay in people’s homes, and so we had, you know, our own little
bedroom and bathroom, which was very nice.
Interviewer: “Now were there other women from your team staying at the same place you
were, or…?”
No, I was the only one.
10
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was the family like that you were staying with?”
Oh, they were as sweet as can be, you know. “Everything okay?” “Oh, yeah, everything is fine.
Thank you.” And they didn’t bother you if you didn’t want to be bothered, but they were very
sweet.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so did they live close to the ballpark, or could you walk there, or
did you have some other way to get there?”
You know what? I don’t recall. I don’t recall that. I probably walked there.
Interviewer: “All right, and do you have a sense of how well the team was playing? I mean,
do they have a winning record while you’re with them, or…?”
Too hard of a question.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you had to go and play road games, how would you get
there?”
On a bus that they got. Everywhere we traveled it was on a bus.
Interviewer: “And how long were those bus rides?”
Oh, sometimes they were very long. Eight hours, ten hours. Yeah, they were—But not in the big
leagues because all the teams were in the Midwest, so that didn’t take long at all.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, Rockford to Grand Rapids at that point might have been four
hours or something like that.”
Right. Yeah, that was probably one of the longest rides.
Interviewer: “Okay, and at that point—Do you remember some of the places you played? I
mean, there was Grand Rapids…”
Oh, yeah. Muskegon. (22:01) Racine.
Interviewer: “I guess Fort Wayne and South Bend, maybe.”
Oh, yeah, Fort Wayne, South Bend. You know, the memory button’s not too good anymore.
11
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Okay, now were you a good defensive catcher?”
I thought I was. I don’t know what the team thought, but I thought I was good at it.
Interviewer: “Okay, well, one of the things the league is famous for is having women steal
bases. It was one of the first things that separated you from women’s softball. So could you
throw runners out?”
Oh, yes. I would catch them leaning on first base and get them out.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you do pick off a thrower first.”
Right, and one of the things I used to do is I’d look at the pitcher and throw to first base. And
that’s the way I caught them off base.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have much success throwing them out at second?”
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I had a fairly good arm.
Interviewer: “Okay, now in the league, did the baserunners—Did they have a sense of who
the good catchers were?”
Oh, I think so.
Interviewer: “So they were a little more careful about who they would run on.”
I would think so. Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, and were you a good hitter?”
You know, I was a fair hitter. I don’t like to say I was excellent. I was decent.
Interviewer: “Okay. Do you remember what your batting average was overall, or…?”
Well, overall I think I was around 270.
Interviewer: “Okay. And even today that’s pretty good for a catcher.”
12
�O’Dowd, Annie
Yes. It’s not on the back of the card, though, that I hit that well. But it seemed to me I was
always in cleanup, and I don’t think cleanup hitters are, you know, 240, 250. And on the back of
the baseball card that’s what it was, and I know I was a better hitter than that. (24:08)
Interviewer: “Well, some kind of hitters are power hitters. Did people hit a lot of home
runs in that league, or were there not very many?”
Some of the women, yes. There were some very, very good hitters that hit home runs. I was not a
home run hitter. I was kind of line drives—left, center, and right—and I could hit to any field. I
feel like I’m bragging about myself.
Interviewer: “No, no. Our problem in doing these interviews is that people don’t want to
say enough about themselves. They’re too modest. But we want to know this stuff. All right,
now catchers are supposed to be slow.”
Oh, and I was slow.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you’ve got that one down.”
I was as slow as a catcher usually is.
Interviewer: “Now would you steal some bases anyway?”
No, I was never a base stealer. I’d run as hard as I could, but I wasn’t a base stealer.
Interviewer: “All right, now you started out playing for Rockford. And did you start
playing catcher regularly for them, or did you do that at other teams later?”
As I said before, I was on the bench when I first came out, but then to be a regular later.
Interviewer: “But you were a regular for Rockford for a while?”
Maybe the last part. The last month I was there.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you play a full season for Rockford, or did they trade you
somewhere else?”
No, I think I played a half a season for Rockford, and then they so-called traded me to Racine,
and there I became first string.
13
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “Okay, and that all may have been designed. The league, I think, assigned
people. They tried to get them…”
Right. They wanted the teams to be even, and that’s why you got traded more than once.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have pretty much the same experience in Racine as in
Rockford, or did you like it better there, or…?” (26:15)
It was about the same. I got to know a few of those players a little bit, Sophie Kurys being one.
The base stealer of all times. Yeah, I got to know her a little bit then. That was nice. She was a
nice lady.
Interviewer: “All right, now how long did you stay with Racine?”
Oh, you ask these hard questions all the time.
Interviewer: “Well, was it sort of the rest of one season and then on somewhere else, or…?”
I probably played there for a season, and, as I said, I don’t remember. I think it was Kalamazoo,
but I’m not sure about that.
Interviewer: “Okay, but the last team you played for was the Lassies regardless of where
you were.”
Right, right, and then I thought, “Well, I better stop having all this fun and get a real job.” So I
stopped playing ball and got a real job.
Interviewer: “Okay. I mean, it was a real job in the sense that it paid pretty well.”
Right. I don’t think it paid as well as playing ball, though.
Interviewer: “Well, no. That’s actually what I was saying. So why wasn’t playing ball a
real job?”
It was too much fun. I mean, it wasn’t like a job at all. I mean, it was just fun. Fun, fun, fun.
Interviewer: “Okay, now while you were playing—this was kind of through ‘51—were the
teams still getting good attendance?”
14
�O’Dowd, Annie
Yes, they were. You know, I couldn’t tell you what the attendance was, but there were a lot of
people out there.
Interviewer: “Okay, but you didn’t have a sense yourself that the league was in trouble,
or…?”
No, not at all. No sense of that whatsoever. (28:03)
Interviewer: “Okay, so for you...was maybe just going and getting maybe a grown-up job,
or…?”
Well, I thought it was a grown-up job where you had to get up at seven in the morning and go to
work.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you go back to Chicago to work, or did you go somewhere
else?”
Oh, back to Chicago.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of job did you take?”
Well, I worked in the factory, and, you know, it was eight to four whatever. And it was not fun.
It wasn’t as much fun as playing ball.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so how long did you stay with that?”
Let’s see. I worked in the box factory probably a couple of years, and then I went to Campbell’s
Soup. And I was in the offices. A clerk. And then in my mid-20s, late 20s, I became a supervisor,
an office supervisor. And from there on I got a job as a buyer for Ameritech Communications,
and I ended up pretty high on the bracket.
Interviewer: “Okay, so after you left the league, I mean, did you talk to people about
having played baseball, or did they even know you did that?”
People didn’t know I did it, and I didn’t talk about it because I thought people back then would
think, “Oh my god, she’s so boyish or mannish.” I didn’t want to talk about it because they
didn’t look up to people then or to women then. (30:02) It was all, you know. “Oh, you did
that?”
Interviewer: “Women weren’t supposed to do what men were doing.”
15
�O’Dowd, Annie
Exactly. So never ever talked about it until 1992 when the movie came out, and that was
excellent.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when they made the movie, you know, they brought in some of
the former players, and some of them helped train them, and they had events and things
like that. Did you get invited to participate in any of that?”
Well, I was there when they were shooting in Cooperstown, and you participated a little, you
know. But I never really consulted or anything like that on the movie.
Interviewer: “Okay, so how did they know to contact you? Had you stayed in touch with
any of the players, or did the league have an organization that you were a part of by then?”
I think the league…
Interviewer: “Okay, so basically the league—They’re organized on some level. They’re
trying to find people. So they find you at that point, and then you kind of get reconnected
with them at that point. And so what do you think was sort of different from your
experience to what’s in the movie?” (32:21)
I think the movie was fairly correct except we didn’t have a pitcher or catcher that were sisters.
They made that part up.
Interviewer: “Yeah, but that was also supposed to be the first season, and you weren’t
there yet. But yes, they made that up.”
Yeah, but the good part of the movie was when the catcher went to get a foul ball. She did the
splits. Well, I did the splits, and I was proud of that.
Interviewer: “Okay. Do you remember who you had for managers?”
All I can remember is Lenny, and I can’t remember his last name. And Max Carey. And I can’t
remember the name of the Rockford Peaches coach. Can’t remember.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did the managers do a good job?”
As far as I was concerned, they did a fairly good job. I did not get to know a lot of pointers,
which I thought I would get, but I didn’t get that many pointers on how to catch. I just kind of
self-taught myself.
16
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “All right, and then I guess the other thing I wanted to ask about and hadn’t
throw in here yet—I mean, you mentioned the chaperones briefly. You know, what did
their duties consist of, and what did you think of them?”
Oh, I liked the chaperones. Well, you know, they told you when to go to bed and what the
schedule was for the next day, and they weren’t really too bad. They weren’t too tough on me.
Of course, I never did anything wrong.
Interviewer: “Well, you were also old enough and principled to kind of look after yourself
anyway.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay, now the movie kind of depicts them as more sort of schoolmarmish or
something like that. Well, do you think that part was fair?” (34:31)
I think some of the chaperones were that way, yeah. I didn’t run into those.
Interviewer: “All right, so once the movie comes out, now did you get people starting to
contact you or get you to go places or do things or sign autographs or that kind of thing?”
No, but—Not to sign autographs, but I did—And I still get mail to sign, you know. Baseball
cards.
Interviewer: “Right. So you’re on the list.”
Yes, I’m on the list. Yeah. I get what? Maybe two a week, which is astonishing to me that people
are still looking for autographs from 1949. Amazing.
Interviewer: “All right. Now we’re doing the league’s reunion in Sarasota in 2016. Have
you been to many of their events or reunions or…?”
The only one I was—that I attended was probably one of the first ones in 1986 in Chicago.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you were connected to them. That’s well before the movie.”
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
17
�O’Dowd, Annie
Interviewer: “So that would be how they find you at that point. Okay, so why did you come
this year?”
Because I live in the Villages, and this is only a couple hours away. So I can get a friend to drive
me down here, so I thought this would be a good time to come. (36:13) I am going to Florida—
Miami—for the next one. Is it the reunion?
Interviewer: “The FanFest.”
FanFest.
Interviewer: “The big baseball FanFest. Okay, now after the movie came out, did you tell
anybody at that point?”
Oh, yeah. Then I was very proud of what I did. And yeah, I said, “Did you see the movie A
League of their Own?” “Oh, yeah.” “Well, I was one of the original ballplayers.” Yes, I was very
proud of that.
Interviewer: “Oh, good. All right, to think back at the time then that you spent playing
ball, I mean, what do you think you took out of that, or what did you learn from it?”
Well, I learned to be patient and be more truthful with people. Not that I was not truthful, but I
feel like I was more truthful then. And what else? I don’t know.
Interviewer: “Well, do you think it helped you at all—your career afterward, especially as
you sort of moved up and got more responsibility?”
Well, as I said, I was kind of a team leader, and that’s how I was when I got into the office work.
And I became, you know, a manager. And people like me because I was fair. I was hard when I
had to be, but I was very fair. And I think I got that from playing ball.
Interviewer: “All right, now if you think back over your playing career, and you think
back just to that time, is there anything else that kind of stands out in your memory there
that you haven’t brought into the story yet? (38:19) Events or people or impressions of
things?”
Well, I was very impressed when I went to Yankee Stadium.
Interviewer: “Talk about that. Why did you go to Yankee Stadium?”
18
�O’Dowd, Annie
Well, there was the traveling team then, and it was just amazing to see all the old ball players up
there. Just—It was—I can’t explain how I felt.
Interviewer: “Now did you play a game there?”
Yes, played a game in Yankee Stadium. And don’t remember if I got any hits or anything like
that, but it was...
Interviewer: “All right, now were you doing your game as like an exhibition before a
regular game, or were the Yankees not there that day, or…?”
I don’t think the Yankees were in town that week.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you don’t remember meeting any of them or anything like that?”
No, I don’t.
Interviewer: “Okay. Do you remember if you went to any other Major League stadiums?
Went to Washington or someplace else?”
I think it was the Washington Senators then, and Connie Mack, I think, was still managing then.
Did I meet him? Don’t recall. It’s awful. I don’t recall a lot of things.
Interviewer: “All right. Well, he would have been kind of old by then.”
Yes, he was pretty old.
Interviewer: “But he did that a long time. Yeah, I guess we normally associate him with
Philadelphia, but if you were going up the East coast, you might have gone there, too.”
(40:08)
Well, didn’t he—Wasn’t he a manager for the Washington Senators?
Interviewer: “He might have been. I’m too young to remember Connie Mack.”
Oh, now you’re bragging. You’re too young.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, I know. All right, but I had heard of him in association with
Philadelphia Athletics, but anyway. Okay, so yeah, you got to see a good chunk of the
country along the way there.”
19
�O’Dowd, Annie
Twenty-seven states.
Interviewer: “All right. I think we have pretty much covered what I had in mind. Anything
else we ought to be talking about?”
I think you should interview Jill.
Interviewer: “All right. Anyway, I would just like to close this by thanking you for taking
the time to talk to me today.”
Oh, you’re entirely welcome.
20
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_ODowdA1971BB
Title
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O'Dowd, Anna (Interview transcript and video), 2016
Creator
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O'Dowd, Anna Mae
Description
An account of the resource
Annie O’Dowd was born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1929. She graduated from high school in 1947 and worked in a box factory before trying out for the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League in 1949. She was initially placed in the Chicago Colleens, a travelling team (similar to a minor-league team), and played with them for a season. After the Colleens, she joined the Rockford Peaches and played with them for half of a season. The final team she played with was the Kalamazoo Lassies in the early 1950s before leaving the League.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-21
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b7a66745ea215e0bc2736060a6b0bdd4.m4v
383bb850d6fc9dd58b65ac321c047f4c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/04972d69a48528b42796da7289189efe.pdf
371474edf275f985a93aaeefc2b19f2e
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Marilyn Jenkins
Interviewed by: Frank Boring
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer August 15, 2008
Interviewer: “ Marilyn, if we could begin with your name and where and when were
you born?” (02:46:25)
I’m Marilyn Jenkins and I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on September 18, 1934.
(02:46:29)
Interviewer: ”What was your early childhood like?” (02:46:38)
Well, I had one sister who married when I was four years old and so I was like an only
child within a sense. Probably that was good because times were touch then coming out
of the Depression and anyway, I grew up on the near south side of Grand Rapids near the
corner of Cass and Hall Street, which was about a long block and a railroad track from
South Field where the “Chicks” played. I had a good childhood. During the war dad
would pile the neighborhood kids in the car and take them to the lake swimming etc. I
have a lot of fond memories of my childhood. Growing up in the neighborhood, it was a
neighborhood then and you knew everybody. There was a lot of porch activity at night
and it was a good time. (00:02:46:48)
Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living?” (02:47:42)
MY father sold meat for Swift and Company and then again coming out of the
depression, at night he would cut the meat for Jim Nader at Nader’ss grocery store on
Hall Street, which was right around the corner. I kind of fed into that too because I
would go and visit him there and he would bring me candy bars. (02:47:43)
Interviewer: “How about your mother?” (02:48:05)
She was pretty much a housewife except I remember for a short period of time during
WWII she was a “Rosie the Riveter” at a local place here in Grand Rapids. I don’t
remember what it was called at that time, but I remember her in the bib overalls and the
hat. (00:02:48:06)
Interviewer: “Just like the picture.” (02:48:23)
Just like the picture, right. She didn’t like it, but she did it for a while. (02:48:24)
Interviewer: “When was your first exposure to baseball, or sports of any kind?”
(02:48:35)
1
�Well, dad was a real sports fan and frequently on Sunday afternoons he would take me to
Valley Field to watch the black leagues play over there and I met some of those fellows
that played there. In fact I met one just the other day. Anyway, I liked baseball—he
taught me to like baseball—he played catch with me and all that. He wanted a boy, but
he got a girl and consequently he was doing something in his short life that he lived after
I was born. (02:48:38)
Interviewer: “This period of time in America was very difficult economically. How
did your family fare?” (02:49:11)
Well, dad worked two jobs and mother went to work there for a period of time. We were
coming out of the Depression and I don’t know that I was anticipated product there. I
don’t know that they wanted another child, but dad would—I think we fared—we always
had enough to eat. Dad would exchange coupons for meat, gas and all that. For gas he
would exchange with neighbors. They would switch back and forth because he had all
the meat, because he was in meat. We got along all right, we weren’t wealthy by any
means, but we made it. (02:49:15)
Interviewer: “You mentioned the black leagues, but were there other baseball
related activities going on around you?” 02:50:00)
I don’t recall any. (02:50:04)
Interviewer: “So the exposure was through your father and seeing these other
players?”(02:50:07)
I was always interested. I remember I use to—all sports—scour the Sunday papers for
pictures. I’m a U of M fan and I would study those and baseball—different seasons and
different sports and I really got into it big time. 02:50:11)
Interviewer: “Did you have a radio?” (02:50:30)
Yes, we had a radio. (02:50:31)
Interviewer: “So, did you hear broadcasts?” (02:50:33)
Broadcasts of sports. I would sit and cross my legs in front of the radio and watch—
listen to them. (02:50:35)
Interviewer: “You said watch, this is before TV.” (02:50:40)
This was watch—we had one of the upright radios. (02:50:45)
2
�Interviewer: “I understand from an earlier conversation that tragedy struck your
family when you were still quite young and in your teens. What actually
happened?” (02:50:50)
Dad—when I was thirteen, I think the summer when I was thirteen, he was diagnosed
with Leukemia and that fall he passed away and of course that changed the whole
dynamics of the family. Now there was just mother and I because my sister had married
a Navy man and they were stationed in Long Beach. Anyway, there was mother and I
and it changed significantly. I remembered we struggled. I think she got a small pension
because he had been in WWI, dad had, and he had been injured in WWI, nothing that
affected his walking or his thinking or anything, but I think it was frozen feet and a few
other things. Anyway, it changed our lives and what it did to me was—I was thirteen and
I was going to South High School. I had to cut right through the alley to get to the high
school and I got a job. I don’t know if I was thirteen or fourteen, but I got a job up on
Division at a sundry store, a Quick Mart today, and I worked there, not during the
summer because that was the “Chicks”, but I worked there after school and I think I was
making 50 or 40 cents an hour maybe, but it helped. Mother was—one thing I remember
is that we had a car, we had a 1939 Chevrolet and if my memory is correct, in 1947 when
my dad died, cars were in great demand. It was in the garage, mother didn’t drive, which
was not unusual for women at that time and I wasn’t driving yet, and she had them lined
up at her door to buy that car. I remember she got a thousand dollars out of it and it was
eight years old. Anyway, that helped. A thousand dollars went a long way then.
Anyway, I got a job and I worked right through graduation from high school. (02:01:00)
Interviewer: “What did you—I realize you were very young at that time and young
people don’t always know what they want to do with their lives, but what were you
thinking about? What were you going to do?” (02:53:17)
What was I going to do? Right. Well, one thing I had to do was I had to play baseball.
Anything more secure or substantial than that wasn’t on my money. I knew there was no
money to go to college, there weren’t scholarships and all that business and in what? I
wasn’t qualified. I was a good student in high school, but anyway, I had to play ball.
When the ball league ended in 1954 I went to x-ray school. I became a radiology
technologist at Butterworth Hospital and I worked at that until 1972 I think, but in that
interim period of time, I also went to Community College, I went nights. (02:53:28)
Interviewer: “Lets get back to that a little later. You’re in high school and at what
point did you discover that there was a baseball league? That there was a women’s
league?” (02:54:39)
I have to go way back. In 1945, dad was still alive, and he saw in the Sunday paper that
there was going to be a women’s baseball league coming to Grand Rapids and it was
going to be at South Field, which was just a short distance from my house. Summers
were kind of—I remember playing softball at Jefferson School grounds, but he told me
that I should go over to the field and see if I could get a job, doing what I didn’t know at
eleven years old. (02:54:41)
3
�Interviewer: “Let me go back. You said you were playing softball?”
Yes, I played on the school grounds there.
Interviewer: “But there was no team?”
No, just the neighborhood boys, and we set up teams and played there a lot. (02:55:56)
Interviewer: “Were you the only girl?”
I was the only girl.
Interviewer: “So, you already felt that you liked the game?
Yes, I liked the game.
Interviewer: “What position were you playing when you played with the boys?”
Any position. It was just a lot of neighborhood kids and we had a good time.
Interviewer: “So there was no official high school girls baseball team?”
No, in high school at South, our gym activities included square dancing, kickball,
badminton, volleyball, but nothing organized. There may have been archery that was
organized, but nothing that interested me. 2:56
Interviewer: “So now your father sees that there is a team in Grand Rapids and he
suggests to you to go and check this out. Tell us about the day you went there.”
Well, I don’t remember the specific day I went there, but I was pretty timid and I met the
groundskeeper there, I didn’t know anybody, it wasn’t a case of who you know, I didn’t
know anyone, but I just went over there and I met the grounds keeper and his name was
“Chick Batts”. Has anybody else mentioned that name to you? He was probably a fifty
year old man at that time and he had a little helper by the name of Pete something, I don’t
remember, but the interesting thing about “Chick” was that he only had one arm and I
was amazed as I watched him throw a ball by switching the mitt between his underarm of
the stub to his good arm. Anyway, I asked him if there was any work I could do and he
said, “sure”. 2:57 Well, the first job I did was—this is right at the beginning of the
league now, they had cut the grass out because South Field was a football field at that
time. They cut the grass out and the diamond, the dirt was full of stones so I picked
stones out of the diamond. I don’t know how long I did that. Another job I had was
cleaning under the bleachers, which was kind of a fun job because you would find nickels
and dimes out of people’s pockets. Anyway, in that period of time, it was just a short
period of time, and somebody, I don’t recall who it was, asked me if I would be batgirl
so, would I be batgirl, of course I would be batgirl. I was privileged to be in that
4
�position. I became batgirl and I was batgirl from the time I was eleven, which was 1945,
until 19—through 1951. 2:58
Interviewer: “Back up just a minute. During the period of time that you were
picking up the stones and all that, did you actually meet the players?”
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Let’s talk about that.”
Talk about being in awe, I got into the game—I don’t know who was batgirl in the
beginning, but I became batgirl pretty quick. Anyway, I got into the games free, that was
Dad’s purpose in sending me over there so, if I worked I could get into the games free.
These women, I was just in awe and thunderstruck by them. A bunch of wonderful
women, and I remember they were nice to me too, every one of them was. When I saw
that Connie Wisnewski back in 1945, it’s too bad that Connie is still not alive because
she would be a wonderful interview. She was the pitcher at the beginning there, and
Gabby Ziegler and I don’t know, I could go on with lots of names, but I was just
awestruck by them. 2:59
Interviewer: “So, I don’t expect you to remember exactly this moment, but when
the first games were being played, what was your reaction to seeing these women
playing baseball?”
Just astounded. Dad would come over to a few games too. He had to make sure that I
was in an all right sitting there because he was that kind of a dad. Anyway, it was just
amazing, and then to see the people in the stands was another amazing think. Have you
been by South Field here?
Interviewer: “Yes.”
Of course you can’t tell where it was right now. It had a short right field porch, but
anyway—when I think back to the period of time when I was batgirl, the box seats that
were right around where I was sitting, the prominent people in Grand Rapids were there
and they were supporting this at that time. 3:00 The stands would be full and at one time
they built more stand out in the left field because it used to be that you could hit the ball
forever out there. The women playing ball—it was phenomenal. I think it progressed
though, it progressed from a game of softball to a game of baseball, we know that.
Interviewer: “Yes, because they were pitching underhand and side hand and
eventually overhand.”
In 1947 it went sidearm and then overhand, that’s when Beansie came in, she never
would have made it if it hadn’t and she says that. 3:01
Interviewer: “She did say that, yes. Did you have any inkling at this point you’re
the batgirl there, that you could eventually play baseball?”
5
�Absolutely, and I had a lot of opportunity too, that’s one thing that was given to me.
Batting practice sometimes, as I got a little older, I’d throw batting practice and
sometimes I would even catch at batting practice, that’s how I ended up being catcher, or
I would roam in the outfield. Oh yeah, I had to—if I hadn’t, not that I was that good, but
if I hadn’t had the opportunity in 1952, that’s when I graduated from high school, to play,
that probably would have been the biggest disappointment of my life. 3:02
Interviewer: “This might be a stupid question, but what does a batgirl do?”
Well, a batgirl goes out and gets the bat after the hitter hits, you see them in the major
leagues today too, they have batboy on their back, and you got out and get the bat or they
bring the umpire balls, or they also, to get into this a little bit more, you shine the shoes,
you carry the bats and balls down to the field from the club house, and you run errands,
and you’re in very close contact with the ball players and man did I admire them.
Interviewer: “From that period, and I realize that we’re going back quite a distance
and you were a very young girl at that time, what were some of the things that you
saw that really amazed you? I understand that you’re in awe and you’re watching
these women, but somebody hit a homerun or something happened.” 3:03
Well, it would hard for me to be specific, but when I saw the home runs, I saw the no
hitters, which in softball was not uncommon, and the competition, that was—I think I
really developed the competitive spirit then, although I think it’s calmed down as I’ve
gotten older. It was phenomenal. I can tell you, but maybe I should wait until later, one
of my biggest thrills playing. So you want to hear it now?”
Interviewer: “Sure, while you’re in the mood.”
At one point, I don’t remember if it was the last year or the year before—1953 or 1954,
we converted to a regulation baseball. Now I loved that because my hands were small
and I could throw it better and everything. I think my first time at bat, if I remember
correctly, with a regulation baseball; I hit one out of the park. Oh man, what a thrill and I
don’t remember if it was South Bend or Kalamazoo, it was one of those two cities. That
was a thrill.
Interviewer: “Going back again to being a batgirl. You were an only child
basically, your father died while you were very young, you’re struggling with your
mom to survive, but you go to this baseball team and you were batgirl. These were
amazing women, did you get a sense of family or a feeling of family?” 3:04
Maybe a little bit, I never thought of it that way, but I was batgirl when dad died and I
remember Dotty Hunter, our chaperone, was living in town then, and I remember she
came to see me then and man, that meant a lot. They sent me cards etc., and yeah, they
were sort of my family. I never thought of it that way. That was my purpose in life at
that time other than looking after my mother at home. 3:05
6
�Interviewer: “When did it—did you develop an idea that you wanted to play on the
team or did something just happen, how did that transition from batgirl to trying
out?”
Well, as I said, I had been terribly disappointed, but I was encouraged by many of them
along the way too. I had a pretty good arm, not for pitching because I didn’t have good
control, but it was something that I had to do. It was a huge part of my life after dad died
and maybe even before. You brought up family and that could be it.
Interviewer: “Did you consciously, as you’re watching, you have a job to do of
course, you’ve the bats and all this and we can’t downplay this because it’s an
important part of the game and you have to do these things, but were there
moments when you thought—I’m going to do that?”
I don’t know if I ever thought that, but I knew that I wanted to play. I had some thrills,
Beansie probably told you about her favorite story about her game in Kalamazoo—well I
was catching that game and I wanted to do it, in fact, if I had a choice when I graduated
from high school of playing for the “Chicks” or going to college, I’d have taken the
“Chicks”. Later on I probably would have taken going to college, but I did that anyway.
3:06
Interviewer: “So, what was the actual transition? When did this transition from
batgirl to—did you have to tryout?”
Yes, I had to go through that and there were others trying out too. It was in the spring of
1952 was when I was graduating from high school and there were other people there
trying out. 3:07
Interviewer: “What were the tryouts like?”
Well, they put you through the drills.
Interviewer: “So you were at the same field you were at before?”
South
field—at this point the league had changed significantly and it was at South Field. There
were local girls trying out. too.
Interviewer: “About how many do you think?”
About ten.
Interviewer: “So, now you got the baseball field, the manager, was he the one that
was setting everything up?
7
�Yes.
Interviewer: “So what did you have to do to tryout?”
They would hit fly balls, you would bat, you would take infield practice, they would talk
to you and I think one of the things, as the league was losing its popularity there, which it
did significantly we know that, they wanted a local girl, which makes sense to me. They
figured I would bring in some people, but I don’t know if I did or not. Getting back
there a little bit, I remember when it was in June of 1952 we were playing—I remember
my first game well, but anyway, it was a matter of if I was going to play or graduate from
high school. Well, I did the smart thing and I graduated. I went through the ceremony.
It was a quandary. My first game I played was at Bigelow Field, I’m sure it was,
anyway, I remember well the first batter up was Dotty Key of the Rockford Peaches. I
was playing center field then and she hit a line drive right smack at me. 3:08
I think the thing was going up and man, am I glad I caught it. If I hadn’t, it would have
gone to the fence and been history. That’s just a side there. I had to play, that was the
key. I had to have the opportunity and I’m still thankful for it. 3:09
Interviewer: “Your first game and you caught the line drive, wow.”
It came smack at me and if it had gone over my head, it would have gone forever at
Bigelow Field. 3:10
Interviewer: “How do you feel about your first game?”
Nervous, very nervous. Here I was—the gals were all nice to me, they had known me a
long time, but here I was having the first opportunity to do what I wanted to do, full
uniform, full everything and butterflies.
Interviewer: “But, when you caught that ball?”
That helped. That helped a lot. That was the big difference there.
Interviewer: “ I played little league and so I do understand the camaraderie. I have
never played professionally, but I know that when I pitched and I got right into that
zone and the guy swung, it was a feeling of excitement and when you caught that
ball?”
It was a feeling. You hit that—like this rookie catcher for the Tigers the other night, his
first hit is that triple that wins the game. He’ll never forget that, he’ll never forget that.
If he never gets another hit, he’ll never forget. 3:11
Interviewer: “Tell me about the uniform.”
Well, I think the uniform was in the 1940’s a significant part of the drawing of the
crowds, the fans that came to the game. As I remember the 40’s, women didn’t wear
8
�shorts, not in public, I don’t know if they wore them, but they didn’t wear shorts in
public. You come out with this—a lot of these gals were really attractive, too-- and you
come out in this short uniform with these good looking legs and that uniform was it.
There whole purpose of developing this league, or beginning this league, that uniform
was a significant part of it, as I see it. 3:12
Interviewer: “I grew up in the 60’s when the mini skirt became very popular and
this is pretty close to being a mini skirt and this is the 40’s and 50’s.”
Right, I mean the legs are bare from up here to the top of your socks and you know it’s
silly to talk about that today, isn’t it? It’s history I know, not that I wear shorts that much
anymore, but what you see the girls in today.
Interviewer: “Then it was significant, because it was something you didn’t see
normally. Rosemary talked about how she was embarrassed to come out.”
I sensed that because I had the experience before, you’re embarrassed.
Interviewer: “What about as a practical, this is the part that always amazed me,
because I’ve seen pictures and film footage of girls, I should say women, sliding into
a base. Now, the men had these long protected pants. What was that like?” 3:13
You know, I think it was something that—it wasn’t pleasant and I had some pretty good
“strawberries”, as we called them, but it was expected of us. That was—I think and I can
say this with a reasonable amount of certainty too, that if you would have put these
women in 1945, in a pant, forget it, it wouldn’t have worked. That’s the way I see it. I
would have been easier on their legs—I think that was—I’ve heard Dotty Hunter talk
about this. That was the magic. Phil Wrigley was really sharp and his advisors there, the
way they put things together. The movie depicted that well too. 3:14
Interviewer: “We’ll talk about that a little later. So, you got through your first
game. What was the reaction of your fellow teammates to the fact that you caught
that ball?”
I don’t know that they reacted because they expected me to do it. That’s what I was out
there for. I wasn’t any hero. They’re pros and they were good ball players. I wish there
was more footage, film footage, of some of those games. 3:14
Interviewer: “But, the cameras were there on occasion, right?”
They were there on occasion, right. I remember seeing the only motion picture, so to
speak, it was the Kalamazoo Klouters, I’m sure you’re aware of that aren’t you?
Interviewer: “We have a whole list of all the teams, yes.”
It’s one that Kalamazoo put out and that’s the one thing we’ve seen in the last few years
here, but there wasn’t a lot. There were stills, but think back to what film was like then.
9
�My colored pictures that I took in the early fifties are kind of faded. 3:15
Interviewer: “ So, lets go through some of the games you played. You got through
the first one, and I imagine your confidence level must have gotten better, so what
were the other games like?”
Well, I played that first game in center field, but I actually was a catcher, I had been
made into a catcher, and one of the first games I caught, Marge Silvestri was pitching and
I’m not exaggerating, this was overhand, she had a drop ball that dropped 8-12 inches
and of course I didn’t have any experience calling a game so to speak, so she called the
game from the mound and told me what she was going to throw, and we won. That was a
big thrill too, catching, I came through it pretty good. I don’t have any trouble with my
knees so to speak and the only thing I have is a crooked finger right here that was
dislocated and never put back in, but I loved catching once I got into it. 3:16
Interviewer: “I never could understand it myself. I was a pitcher.”
You’re part of the game. With every pitch you’re part of the game.
Interviewer: “What were some of the games like? You quoted one already.”
I have a problem pulling that out. They were competitive. I don’t think I specify any
particular games. I can’t.
Interviewer: “Well, who were the main rivals?”
Oh, the main rivals, toward the end—Fort Wayne, Fort Wayne always had a good team,
Rockford always had a good team, I think those were the main rivals as I remember.
Interviewer: “The one game that Beans was talking about, you were catching. Let’s
go into detail about that particular game.”
Well, here’s the deal that happened. Mamie Redman was pretty much the regular
catcher and I never—my statistics—I caught a lot of games, but Mamie would go back to
college when the playoffs started, so I was thrown in as the catcher. She was much more
experienced than I was and I tell her to this day—“Mamie, I could hit better and run
faster”. 3:17 So, Mamie went back to college and I was thrown in to be the catcher and
it was a championship game in the playoffs that year that Beansie pitched and it was in
Kalamazoo and it was forty degrees. It was really cold, really cold. Anyway, and I don’t
want to take away from her story, but she struck out that last batter and we won it. That
was probably both of our biggest thrills.
Interviewer. “What about the tension? That was the playoffs, what did you
experience?”
10
�A lot of tension. The one thing that I always thought and I still think to this day,
catcher’s gloves were hard to break in and we used the regular catcher’s glove—hard to
break in and they were expensive. The first one I bought, which we had to buy ourselves,
burned up in the fire at Bigelow and I had to buy another one. 3:18 Well, it wasn’t
broken in and Beansie thought the ball popped out of my mitt too much. I had a crease in
it and in fact, that glove is in the museum here in town now and you can still see that
crease. When they had that exhibit I noticed it and I could never work that out. They
weren’t as flexible as today’s. Anyway, that three-two pitch that she threw, there was a
lot of tension. Beansie was kind of nonchalant on the mound, tall, both she and Connie
Wisnewski probably were two of the taller ones in the league. Anyway, she was
nonchalant and she fired it and it stuck in my glove. That ball is in Cooperstown today,
right where it should be. 3:19
Interviewer: “What were the crowds like when you first started?”
They were phenomenal. 10,000 people at South Field, I don’t know where they put them
all, but going back, that’s wartime again. Tickets were cheap, people didn’t have cars,
but it was on the near south side and a lot of people could walk to the games, including
me. Anyway, it really, really was—I think it hit its real popularity in the late 40’s after
the war, but then as cars became more available and television hit the scene, it had an
affect on it. I think historians say that television and availability of the auto, really
changed the success of the league. 3:20
Interviewer: “Just a quick question, how much was your salary working as a
professional?”
I think it was fifty-five dollars a week, which wasn’t bad.
Interviewer: “That was a lot of money back then.”
It was a lot of money back then, yes.
Interviewer: “And that was helping to supplement your family, your mother?”
Right. Keep me going. As you get a little older and in your teens, you need things. You
think you do anyway.
Interviewer: “What did you do with your money?”
Well, I don’t think I had that much, I’m sure. While I was playing, my mother had
remarried, so I had a stepfather, so my money I used for myself. Whatever I needed. I
think I bought a car. A hundred dollar whopper.
Interviewer: “While you were playing as a professional baseball player, did you get
an opportunity for travel?” 3:21
11
�Yes we did, we traveled a lot on road trips. One thing I will say—even when I was
batgirl, after my dad died Dotty Hunter was a remarkable woman, she was a Canadian,
I’m sure you know more about her maybe than I do—anyway, she was out chaperone and
I think in the summer of 1948, she took me on a road trip and I think it was to Racine,
Wisconsin. Now I hadn’t, we didn’t travel back then, and the one thing I remember
about it—I was there and somebody famous died. She took care of me—in 1948 I was
fourteen. I had a room in a hotel, with a cardboard suitcase with stickers on it. It was a
wonderful experience. 3:22
Interviewer: “Later on you’re playing professionally, do you travel also?”
We traveled either by bus or the last couple years, I think we were in these cars and on
the side of one of the cars it said, “Here come the Grand Rapids Chicks”.
Interviewer: “So, during that period of time then, it was the first time you had been
outside Grand Rapids?”
Well, very far outside Grand Rapids. When my dad died in 1947, he was buried in
Allendale, but no we didn’t do that—you didn’t have drive-in, you didn’t have
McDonald’s, you didn’t have all that stuff.
Interviewer: “Did you travel out of the country?”
No, I never did.
Interviewer: “I know they had the American and the Cuban leagues.”
I think Beansie did. 3:23
Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier about the crowds being huge, 10,000
people. Did you notice the drop off?”
Absolutely, I noticed it to the point where, as 1952 was approaching, I was thinking as
the crowds were dropping off, I might never have the opportunity to play because they
might end the league and by 1954 we could really see that coming. One of the things I
remember, was one of my last paychecks was handed out to me in one dollar bills. That
tells you a lot. That even told me a lot as a kid because I was only nineteen when this
was all over. 3:24
Interviewer: “I know that when we interviewed Rosemary, she was taken
completely by surprise of course and she only played at the last.”
Yes, she was only there the last three months or so and that was the last season. No, I
wasn’t taken by surprise at all. There were rumblings about this—they tried different
cities, but each city had its core fan base. There were fan clubs and all that and it didn’t
surprise me, really at all. I could see it coming.
12
�Interviewer: “Well, if you did see it coming, were you thinking about alternatives?”
3:25
Probably, quietly—what I did during the years that I played—in the winter I would work
at Wilson athletic goods—I think that was the only place I worked. It was a job you
could get making golf clubs, putting grips on them—a dirty job, a dirty job, standing in a
spot where the glue would drip and your shoes would be stuck to the floor, but when I
think back on that, it was piecework and it was good money—good money. When it was
over with I had to do something and I had been encouraged—I was a good student in
high school and I had been encouraged to do something. Well, Beansie got into x-ray, I
don’t know how she did, but she encouraged me and I got into it and actually worked at
it—I started in 1955 with my training, that went through 1957 and then I became an RT,
a Registered Technologist, and then after that I started going to night school and then I
while I was going to night school, I worked for Dr. Stonehouse and Dawson, right over
here in the Medical Arts building. I completed Community College and then I went back
to Butterworth Hospital and I got into the teaching program there, of x-ray students.
3:26 I had a degree then etc. I probably shouldn’t say this, but I got very disillusioned
in the 70’s and I might have been an activist too in the 70’s, but I just was dismayed with
patient care. That was after Medicare had come in and the situation kind of changed, but
we won’t go into that. Anyway, then I left that and I went to work for a person injury
attorney in town. Bill Reamon, he has passed away, but he was one of the hot shots in
town and I had a lot of respect for him. I worked for him from 1972 through 1977 and
then that firm split and then I did a lot of work for other attorneys because I had learned
to put together a settlement brochure that was quite popular with them at that time. 3:27
I worked for Bill up through 1988 part time, but also in 1981 I started doing estate sales
in town. I was always interested in antiques so, I was doing estate sales and I am still
doing them today. In fact I’m working on a big one right now. 3:28
Interviewer: “Looking back on the last year, 1954, you said that you heard the
rumbling and you kind of figured that this was starting to happen and you started
to think about what you are going to do next. How did it actually happen to you?
How did you physically know? Was it a letter? How did you know that it was over
with?”
I think it was through the press. I don’t remember a letter or anything. 3:29 Maybe, but
I don’t know. If there was one—in 1978 I donated all my stuff to the public museum
here and it would be in there if there was. I don’t remember that.
Interviewer. “What was your reaction?”
Well, I expected it. You can’t deny what you expect can you? It wasn’t the end of the
world for me. I was nineteen years old and I had to do something with my life anyway—
the funs not going to go on forever, right? Maybe, if you get the right job. Anyway I just
went on. Beansie was terribly disappointed and she expressed that to you, and I’m sure a
13
�lot of the others were too. It was like—it was a fact of life, but she stayed here and she
has done well here in town. 3:29
Interviewer: “Looking back, how do you think the specific experience of baseball
affected you and the person you are today?”
Well, I think probably significant to that was and to how it affected me was that it made
me competitive, but I think in a good way. It also taught me winning and losing and
winning isn’t everything. The way you lose can mean a lot too. I said that before about
winning and losing and competitive—having the opportunity to meet all these wonderful
women, who at that time that the league ended, we had no idea that all this would be
happening. It was over, it was over, but as out association got going and we got—I only
saw the local people here after that, but when the association got going, we have had
more fun at these reunions than you can believe. 3:30 I wish some of you could have
been at the reunion in Fort Wayne in, I want to say, 1984. There was more enthusiasm
there and more good times. There were other ones too, we had a wonderful one in Grand
Rapids in 2001 which Dolly Wisniewski was the chair person of and she said we helped
her, but I don’t know if we did that much, but basically it taught me a lot. It taught me
how to travel, how to pack a suitcase, which I don’t know today, how to eat out, because
we didn’t eat out, I didn’t anyway. My family didn’t and yours probably too. Anyway, it
matured me in a lot of ways. 3:31
Interviewer: “ If you look back on that time when girls, women didn’t really have a
whole lot of options. You could basically become of course a mother, a homemaker,
you could become a nurse, perhaps a teacher, but there weren’t a whole lot of other
things available. After the women’s professional baseball that seemed to change
and there are baseball teams and there are girl’s sports and whatnot. How much do
you think your experience and the experience of the baseball league had on girls
doing things today?” 3:32
Well, I’m led to believe that it had a great effect. My personal experience or contacts
haven’t shown me, other than what I have read or seen, but I guess it’s like Title IX or
whatever, and all this and I have a good friend who taught in college and she is a good
example of this. She had the opportunity to go to college right out of high school and she
could either be a nurse, a teacher or homemaker. Well, she wanted to be an engineer, but
women didn’t do that so, she became a teacher and had a successful career. She has
enlightened me about a lot of the changes because she taught at the local college here.
3:33 I see changes—I’m watching this Olympic team and I’m watching even some
sandlot stuff and there’s a lot of women out there that could be playing baseball and they
have tried it, but it doesn’t catch on and I’ve said, I don’t think it ever will. It might in
another hundred years or something and I want to stress something—there were good ball
players, but there are today too, but the skirts, the uniform, the timing, it’s in a little
pocket there of history where it fit in perfectly and I don’t know where your going to find
another pocket like that. You could make some changes that would be significant, but
this was wartime and wartime then was a lot different than wartime now--much different.
3:34
14
�Interviewer: “Penny Marshall decided to make the movie called “A League of
Their Own”. How were you contacted about that? How did you find out about it?”
I wasn’t personally, but June Peppis in Kalamazoo, she had started the players
association and we were getting together someplace and having a great time once a year
or twice a year. Anyway, she had these two writers come over one year, I don’t
remember their names, but they developed the storyline, never dreaming it would lead
into this, but it did. I don’t know how Penny Marshall got involved myself, but I do
remember in Cooperstown in 1988 when they recognized us, that Penny Marshall was
there. What a brilliant mind. 3:35 She’s brilliant and the way she put together that
movie and all the little twists and innuendos and everything else—it’s phenomenal—even
to “There’s no crying in baseball”, I don’t think anybody had said that before had they to
your knowledge? Anyway, we didn’t even dream at that point yet before the movie, what
it meant to other people as whole, as a unit there.
Interviewer: “I know and I’ve been told this by other baseball player, the storyline
itself was very much fictional account, but overall, did the film express, did it show
the experience?”
I think it showed the experience beautifully, but I think that the experience that it
depicted was more at the beginning of the league. I’m not sure why I say the, I just feel
that way. I think it did an exceptional job. Then to get gals that could play ball and all—
it was wonderful. 3:36 It was wonderful and it’s going to be a movie that’s going to be
around forever I’m sure. It’s going to be a good fill in forever, isn’t it?
Interviewer: “I think so and it kind of becomes like the 1940’s classics—it has the
flavor of that period and it doesn’t have all the stuff you see in so many movies
today. It stands on it’s own. How did the movie affect the association, affect you
and the association?” 3:37
The movie had a fantastic effect on the association, not just monetary, although there was
some there, but it found players that were off in somewhere, although there had been
great searches trying to locate people. It strengthened the association and almost gave the
association a purpose. I sometimes struggle with that—what’s the association s purpose
right now? Well, it’s to perpetuate the league, but I’m one of the youngest. Rosemary, I
said, is younger than I, but I was one of the youngest that was around from the beginning.
It isn’t going to be many more years—the associate members are beginning to take over
control, which has to be, but they’ve been around long enough where they’re picking up
the stories etc. It’s hard to put into a few words what the experience meant to each and
every one of them. To Beansie it meant getting out of Okalahoma, to me, I’ve always
been here. I went to South High School, played on the same South thing and the
connection with Jerry Ford—I’m into Grand Rapids history. 3:38
Interviewer: “That’s why you get along so well with Gordon Olson. He has a love
for this place.”
15
�Yes, he’s done a lot for us too. There are a lot of people who have stepped up and really
made us feel like somebody again as we get into our older years.
Interviewer: “I think one of the things that I found as a documentary film maker,
I’ve done films about the Flying Tigers, film about the Red Arrow and during the
experience itself you know you’re doing something and in your case your playing
baseball and your enjoying it and all that, but you don’t think in terms of what it is
going to mean fifty years from now.” 3:39
Absolutely not ever had a thought that way.
Interviewer: “But at the same time I think it’s important that historians do take the
tie and sit back say, “Guess what, this had an effect and this happened because of
what you did during that period.” A time when you were just a teenager.”
I was just a teenager, but I’ve had a good life since. I haven’t—I participated in the
meeting and the association and the reunions etc., but it hasn’t encompassed my life like
some others.
Interviewer: “But it’s an important part of your life.”
I haven’t forgotten and I never will. I know that dad would have been proud of me had
he lived to see me playing. 3:40
Interviewer: “I think it’s important that he encouraged you to begin with.”
That was and the boys in the neighborhood added to it too. I remember about ten days
before dad died, it was in November, he had me out between the houses in our
neighborhood where I grew up, throwing a football. Interesting—that was almost his last
day of consciousness. He had just come home from the hospital and he was built-up a
little bit.
Interviewer: “But your mom got a chance to see your success.”
She wasn’t interested in baseball, not at all. I think she knew though—one thing she said,
I remember and it was when I graduated from Community College, she said, “You’re the
first person in the family to get a degree.” It was only an Associates Degree, but it was a
degree, it was putting two years together. I think she was, but I don’t think she ever came
over to see a game. I’m not sure about that, maybe she did. 3:41
Interviewer: “Do you have other family?”
No, I have cousins that I don’t know—not really.
Interviewer: “I’m an only child also.”
You miss a lot.
16
�Interviewer: “You do, but on the other hand there’s a comfort level being by
yourself that have families don’t have.”
That is true. You think a little differently.
Interviewer. “I think so and if you actually take time to improve yourself and your
independence, it strengthens you, but I have very close friends.”
I do too, a lot of wonderful friends and that means a lot.
Interviewer: “Are there any thoughts that you want to add?”
No, I can’t think of any unless you want to ask me more questions. I feel like I did a
decent job for you. 3:42
Interviewer: “This has been a wonderful time.”
Do you tell everyone that?
Interviewer: “No, but each one is that unique.”
We are all different, right. Get Dolly going and you will enjoy her.
Interviewer: “Thank you very much and good-bye”
Thank you Frank, it was nice meeting you. 3:42
17
�18
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_MJenkins
Title
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Jenkins, Marilyn M. (Interview transcript and video), 2008
Creator
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Jenkins, Marilyn
Description
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Marilyn Jenkins was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1934. She grew up in Grand Rapids and played baseball with family and friends, and played softball with the neighborhood kids. When the Grand Rapids Chicks arrived in 1945, she talked her way into a job with the team and quickly became their batgirl, a job she held through the 1951 season. She played as a batgirl from 1945 thru 1951. Upon graduating high school in 1952, she became eligible to play in the All American Girls Professional Baseball League and went on to play with the Grand Rapids Chicks from 1952 to 1954 as a catcher.
Contributor
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2008-07-01
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/53d6e32a248b7e8a9884fc4f1e9440b7.m4v
710fe2fb8c2154f3c611673a90bb5058
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dff524aad3ae2e0954db52e451b3ec72.pdf
9c9a51bef94866f5aa8b9501dfbaad90
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Helen “Gig” Smith
Length of Interview: (01:02:00)
Transcribed by: Sean Duffie, March 1, 2010
Interviewer: We’re talking today with Helen Smith of Richmond, Virginia
Gig Smith:
Gig
Interviewer: Everyone called you Gig, so, okay. She’s a veteran of the Women’s
Army Corps from the Second World War, as well as a player for the
All American Girls Professional Baseball League, and this interview is
going to cover both of these, because both fall under the privy of the
Library of Congress Veterens history project. The Interviewer is
James Smither, of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Now, Gig, can you start by telling us a little bit about your
own background, to begin with: where and when were you born?
Gig Smith:
I was born January the 5th, 1922, and I lived in Virginia, Richmond. I think
I was interest in sports since the day I was born.
Interviewer: Do you remember how early you started playing baseball, or softball?
Gig Smith:
Yes, when I was thirteen. And I played for Lucky Strike. (1:00) They
didn’t know when I was playing, they didn’t know how old I was, and
when they found out how old I was, they let me go. Then I went joined
another team.
Interviewer: You said you were playing for Lucky Strike, the cigarette brand. Now,
did the tobacco companies sponsor teams?
Gig Smith:
Well, they sponsored their own players, not outsiders
Interviewer: Now how did you get to be on one of those teams?
Gig Smith:
Well, everybody went to the playground in those days, and that’s where it
really started.
Interviewer: Were you playing baseball or were you playing softball?
Gig Smith:
Softball, fast pitch.
�Interviewer: Okay, and fast pitch softball, was that overhand or underhand?
Gig Smith:
Under. A little bit of side arm.
Interviewer: Now, what position did you normally play?
Gig Smith:
3rd base
Interviewer: How good was your throwing arm?
Gig Smith:
Pretty good.
Interviewer: Now, could you hit well? (2:00)
Gig Smith:
Yes, I was fourth, always fourth hitter.
Interviewer: Let’s back up a little bit here. Tell me, what did your family do for a
living in those days?
Gig Smith:
My mother was a nurse before she became married, and my father worked
for the city, and he was a CPA. He worked at city hall.
Interviewer: That sounds like a fairly secure job, so he could keep that during that
depression?
Gig Smith:
Mmhmm. He helped to support other people in the family, when they lost
their jobs. We doubled up., which everybody did in those days.
Interviewer: Did you finish high school?
Gig Smith:
Yes, and I received the athletic trophy, Most Athletic, when I graduated.
That was a graduating class of over 500, so that was guess that was pretty
good. (3:00)
Interviewer: So what other sports did you play besides softball?
Gig Smith:
Everything that they let me get into. I majored in four sports in high
school
Interviewer: And what were the other sports?
Gig Smith:
Track, tennis, field hockey and basketball
Interviewer: These days, girls have a lot of opportunities for sports, but you were
doing pretty much what was available to you at the time.
�Gig Smith:
That was everything that was there. Nowadays they concentrate on one
sport. I did them all.
Interviewer: Well, how were you able to fit all of them in?
Gig Smith:
Well, they were after school.
Interviewer: They had them on different days?
Gig Smith:
And different seasons
Interviewer: In what year did you graduate from high school?
Gig Smith:
1940. (4:00)
Interviewer: Then what did you do once you finished school?
Gig Smith:
I worked for a photo finishing place until I heard that Pearl Harbor
announced on the radio. Then I went back to the kitchen where my mother
was, and I said, they bombed Pearl Harbor. And my brother was already in
the navy. And I said I wished that they had something for women to do.
I’d love to go in. And two months after that, they started the auxiliary
corps, and two months after that, it became the army.
Interviewer: Did you remember when you first heard about the auxiliary corps?
Gig Smith:
Well, that was army; all I knew was the branches of service…
Interviewer: Was it advertised or announced in the news that they were recruiting
women?
Gig Smith:
Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: How did the recruiting process work? Where did you go to sign up?
Gig Smith:
I went to the Marines first, and they didn’t want any women in the
marines, but they had to take them. (5:00) The fellow at the recruiting
station was very rude-- he kept his head down and wrote-- and I stood
there waiting. It seems like a half hour but it couldn’t have been more than
a few minutes. Then he said, what do you want? And that threw me back.
And I said, what do you mean what do I want? I’d like to know a little bit
about the Marines. He said-- still writing and still not looking up-- what do
you want to know about the Marines? And all I know is I wanted to get
out of there. I don’t remember what was said after that, and I could hardly
wait to get out of there, and I walked down those steps and down about 8
blocks to the Army recruiting station. The fellow was totally different. He
�was opposite of the rough old marine that didn’t look immaculate in his
dress, (6:00) and this was a young black fellow that stood up and
introduced himself and put his hand out when he introduced himself, and
he said, “What can I help you with?” And I said, “I’d like to know a little
bit about the Army.” And he said, “Have a seat and we’ll see what we can
do.” And I asked… I wanted to know if there’s any way of getting any
type of art work in the service. And he said, well, I’d say you’d have about
98 chances out of 100 you won’t get it because there’s very little being
done, and I thought, he’s very polite and he’s honest, and if this is the way
they ought to treat me, I’ll join. So I went home that night, and my brother
was already in the navy and my sister was with her husband—he was
stationed in New York. (7:00) I told my family, my mother wasn’t very
well at that time, but I took a chance and I said I joined the army today—
not having joined it—just to see what their reaction was going to be. And
there was dead silence and I said uh-oh, I sunk. Finally my father said,
well how do you know you’re going to like it? I said, I don’t know, but
that’s the chance I’ll have to take. And that’s all that was said, so the next
day I went back and signed up
Interviewer: When you walked into that army recruiting office, and there was a
black soldier there, were you surprised to see him there?
Gig Smith:
No.
Interviewer: Because this is still the era of segregation, and the army was
segregated.
Gig Smith:
Well, I’ve always been different in my ideas, and I was taught to handle
things like that differently by my family, thank goodness. (8:00)
Interviewer: At this point, the army itself was still segregated so they don’t
desegregate…
Gig Smith:
Well, I didn’t know.
Interviewer: And it was perfectly normal to you when you walked in and he
behaved like a good person?
Gig Smith:
Extremely polite and very immaculate in his dress, totally different from
the marine.
Interviewer: The Marine quite likely was somebody they pulled off from some
other duty some place and just stuck him there. So when you go back
to sign up then, what’s the process?
�Gig Smith:
I don’t know; that’s a little blurry. I just signed up and they told me when
I’d be leaving. There were street cars in those days, and I remember
driving to the railroad station. (9:00)
Interviewer: Where did they send you for training?
Gig Smith:
Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia
Interviewer: And where in Georgia was Fort Oglethorpe?
Gig Smith:
It’s in the northern part.
Interviewer: And what kind of facility was it? What did it look like?
Gig Smith:
Normal army barracks, wooden, nothing to brag about. We had stoves that
you had to stoke with the coal. It was rough, but I liked it.
Interviewer: About how many women were in the group you were training with?
Gig Smith:
I would say probably fifty to one hundred. I don’t remember.
Interviewer: What sort of people did they have training you or supervising you?
Gig Smith:
We had officers and then we had noncommissioned officers that handled
us.
Interviewer: Were these women or men? (10:00)
Gig Smith:
Women
Interviewer: Did you have the impression that some of these women had been in
the army a while, or were they all pretty new?
Gig Smith:
Well, we were all pretty new in those days.
Interviewer: What kind of training did they actually give you? Did they have you
marching around?
Gig Smith:
Absolutely. PT every morning. Physical training. And when we got to
hours after my basic training, I was sent to Headquarters Company on the
fort. I was part of the headquarters company, and they had various places
where we went out to do our jobs. I was assigned to publications, and I got
art work. So, that was very unusual, because he told me I probably
wouldn’t. (11:00) We made all the training aids, and we illustrated the
post newspaper, made illustrations. Publications was just one of the
services the Headquarters Company serviced.
�Interviewer: You had mentioned this before, where did your interest in art come
from?
Gig Smith:
I just always drew. I don’t know. Just like the sports.
Interviewer: So you‘d always done that. Had you taken art classes in high school?
Gig Smith:
(12:00) And after school. I didn’t think there was a chance for me to go to
college, because in those days, the boys always got the first chance to go,
and I knew I wouldn’t go. So I played in school, I really did, I played
everything. Art was everything to me, but once I got out of army, and had
a chance to go, then my grades were totally different, and I had excellent
grades then.
Interviewer: Did you just do drawing or did you do painting?
Gig Smith:
Everything. Ceramics. Everything. Anything I could get my hands on.
Interviewer: Tell me a little bit more about the training part and life on the base
here. You mentioned you did physical training. Did you have to learn
army discipline and following the rules?
Gig Smith:
Oh yeah. When I was finally settled in the Headquarters Company, every
six weeks had physical training that they tested you on, and if you got over
a certain score, you were exempt for the next six weeks. I got the high
score. (13:00) So they put me in charge of getting up in the morning to
train those ones that couldn’t even do a situp. So the next six week, I
didn’t get the high score, and I was out of there.
Interviewer: Was that by design?
Gig Smith:
Yes! Who wants to get up in the morning to train people who couldn’t do
anything?
Interviewer: At this base where you were, were there a lot of male soldiers training
too?
Gig Smith:
We had a company of male soldiers there, but these were for various jobs
on the post, and we worked with some of them, but mostly we had
women.
Interviewer: (14:00) What kind of rules did they have governing contact with male
soldiers, or anything else like that? To what extent did they keep you
separate?
�Gig Smith:
Well, they were stationed in a different part of the fort, and I really don’t
know where they were, but they came to work. They worked in
Publications, a couple of them, various jobs.
Interviewer: And did you have any supervisory responsibilities? Did you tell
anyone else what to do?
Gig Smith:
No, not at that time.
Interviewer: How long did you stay at that?
Gig Smith:
Only for the duration of the war. All the transfers were frozen. Everyone
wanted to out of Fort Oglethorpe. (15:00) And the only people who could
get you out of there was the Pentagon, which was the headquarters
company for the war. And I don’t know how I was chosen, but I was
requisitioned to go to the Pentagon. I was with all nice people, with cooks
and bakers, they’d have had me washing pots and pans the rest of my life.
Interviewer: When did they send you up to the Pentagon?
Gig Smith:
About half way through. Before I left, I went from Publications, over to
cadre. Cadre runs the headquarters company. I was in cadre for a little
while, that was when they called me to the Pentagon. I had to sit outside
for a week while they did a three-way clearance. (16:00) I don’t have past
that – because I’m joking – but they had to come to Richmond and
interview a lot of people before they let you into the office. But that was
wonderful, I was with a great great bunch of people there. We had about
200 people in that office, that were specialists in everything Japanese.
They were specialists. I don’t’ know how I got there.
Interviewer: What duties did you have there?
Gig Smith:
We had people on islands that the Japanese didn’t know about, and if the
Japanese had known about them, they would have of course beheaded
them. (17:00) But they intercepted their codes, Jap codes, as the ships
went by. They sent them to our department. Now, I did not do the
decoding, but it was within our department. It was all secret. Everything
that they sent us – little pieces of paper with information on it, where the
ships were, what they were carrying, what the weight of the ship was –
they sent to us to plot on these maps, and we determined which ones
would be bombed, which would help to shorten the war. Actually, we
were as close to the war as you could get for not being there.(18:00) It was
fascinating.
Interviewer: What kind of work did you do for them in that, if you’re not doing the
decrypting?
�Gig Smith:
We were taking the ones that they had decoded, and we plotted them out
on the maps. We had special cards – everything’s different today, such an
advancement in technology – and we took what was on those cards, and
we plotted them on the maps and we had special couriers to fly it over.
And it had to be done as it came in, it was very fast, because these ships
were moving. Sometimes we’d have to work all night to get them out.
Interviewer: Where were you living while you were working at the Pentagon?
Gig Smith:
We lived at Fort Myer. (19:00) We walked every day in a tunnel under the
highway to the Pentagon. We were not very well liked, because they made
special barracks for us. They were cinder block, and we had these dryers
that you’d pull out. We had everything. We lived 4 to a cubicle and not in
the barracks like the other girls did. Everybody in the barracks that we
lived in knew that you had to be quiet because there were people there,
you know when you worked all night you had to sleep all day or part of it,
so they did not like us. Also, we were exempt from doing KP duty, and
they did not like us at all.
Interviewer: When you say they, who are you referring to?
Gig Smith:
The other soldiers.
Interviewer: Were they male soldiers or were they women?
Gig Smith:
(20:00) Women, strictly women.
Interviewer: So there were a lot of other WACs basically on the base, but only
certain of you had the special assignment over at the Pentagon.
Gig Smith:
Yes.
Interviewer: The women you were working with, what kind of backgrounds did
they have?
Gig Smith:
Practically all of them had college educations but me. And that’s why I
don’t know how I got there.
Interviewer: When you were working with the maps, were there situations where
your abilities as an artist were helpful to you somehow?
Gig Smith:
Yes, in plotting them, and things like that.
Interviewer: That may well have a lot to do with it. They look for specialized skills
and you had some. While you were working there, did you meet any
�high-ranking people or any important ones? Did they come through
and check up on you?
Gig Smith:
(21:00) At the Pentagon? I’ll tell you a funny story. I’ve told it so many
times, you’ll probably see it in other places. I had a friend that worked in
General Marshall’s office. And she said – everything was military and sort
of sterile – in her office, she had a cute little waiting room there with a
sofa and a lamp and a chair and all kinds of little feminine touches. She
said, why don’t you come to see my office some time, if you want to see
something that’s not military? And I said, okay, when I have the chance
I’ll go. So one day I went around there and all of a sudden – well, she was
leaning up against a… I don’t know… I was sitting on the sofa facing a
door – this loud buzzer went off and she jumped to attention at that door
and I didn’t know what was going on. (22:00) All of a sudden, I knew that
was the secretary of war, Henry Stimson, and I could not move, because
you’re supposed to stand at attention when any officer comes into the
room. I could not move, so Stimson was a very small man, and he had a
colonel that looked like he would hit the ceiling… and I still couldn’t
move. So, Mr. Stimson said How do you do? as he passed. I know I said
how do you do. But as they went around the door, the big tall colonel came
back in, and I knew he was after me. I jumped to attention. (23:00) He
said, “Sergeant, don’t you know that when the Secretary of War is in the
room, you’re supposed to stand at attention?” “Yes sir, but I didn’t know
he was behind that door.” She should have told me, she was very
embarrassed about it because she could have warned me. But that was an
experience I’ll never get over. It’s funny now, but it wasn’t funny then.
He said just see that it doesn’t happen again. And I thought to myself,
man, you’re not ever going to get into this office ever again. He had gone
in to see General Marshall and I didn't know anybody was in there, she
didn't warn me.
Interviewer: While you were living at Fort Myer and were working at the
Pentagon, did you get a chance to go into Washington itself? (24:00)
Gig Smith:
We went in every once in a while, but we didn’t go regularly.
Interviewer: Did you have any spare time, and if you did, how did you spend it?
Gig Smith:
Sports: basketball, softball. I played on a team down in Oglethorpe that
went to a state tournament. I had two bases loaded and a home run.
Interviewer: Two grand slams
Gig Smith:
Yeah, grand slam, I tried to think of it.
�Interviewer: I guess, when we look ahead to the Women’s baseball league, they
didn’t hit necessarily a lot of home runs.
Gig Smith:
Well, the last three years of my playing Richmond, I had an average of
hitting a home run a game.
Interviewer: Was it easier to hit home runs in softball than it was going to be in
baseball? (25:00)
Gig Smith:
Well, I didn’t get far enough into baseball to know the difference.
Interviewer: Let’s go back to Washington. Did the Pentagon have women’s teams
that you could play on?
Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: And who would they play against?
Gig Smith:
The other forts, or… I’m not thinking.
Interviewer: The other bases and other units?
Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: Did you travel around to play those games?
Gig Smith:
Occasionally but it was all in the Washington area
Interviewer: When working at the pentagon, there’s going to be men working
along with women. (26:00)
Gig Smith:
Right
Interviewer: What kind of relationship was there in the offices? How did the men
treat the women?
Gig Smith:
I was with officers and people that were skilled, so they were a little bit
different. We were treated with respect.
Interviewer: Were there situations outside of the office or off of the base where
people treated women in the army with a little less respect?
Gig Smith:
I think so. I have no idea what it’s like today… I don’t know, I can’t
compare the two.
�Interviewer: Were there ways that you could recognize that people were a little
uncomfortable with you?
Gig Smith:
Yes, well, that’s human nature. (27:00)
Interviewer: Now when you went off the base, would you stay in uniform?
Gig Smith:
Yes, always.
Interviewer: I guess in Washington there’d be a lot of women in uniform.
Gig Smith:
Oh yeah. It would be so overcrowded. Where the mall is now, they had
barracks. It was a real busy place in those days.
Interviewer: Now, are there particular events or things that happened while you
were working in Washington that stand out in your memory?
Gig Smith:
Well, I remember when Roosevelt died. We were shocked, I was getting
to go home for the weekend – because Richmond was so close – and then
I remember when Drew Pearson of the Washington Post broke it, that we
had broken the Jap code, the office went berserk. (28:00) Because he
should have been hung. He should have really been… but they never did
any thing to him.
Interviewer: When did that happen? Was that late in the war?
Gig Smith:
It was towards the end of the war, but you could have still used the
Japanese code today if he had not put it in the post. He must have paid
someone a pretty penny to get hat information, or somebody must have
been drunk.
Interviewer: Then, do you remember when the atomic bomb got announced?
Gig Smith:
I don’t remember the particulars.
Interviewer: Of course, then there’s the announcement that the war itself is over
and the Japanese surrender.
Gig Smith:
(29:00) I never had headaches, but they wanted some of us to go to Japan
with the occupational forces. And I wanted to go very much, but I also
wanted to go to college. So I kept the headache for a week trying to decide
which I wanted to do most. And as soon as I decided that maybe I would
feel too old when I got back, the headache went away.
Interviewer: So you decided that you were not going to go then
�Gig Smith:
No, I decided to go to college, going to art school
Interviewer: Is that the first thing you did after you left the army?
Gig Smith:
I went straight to New York.
Interviewer: What school did you attend there?
Gig Smith:
I went to Pratt until… I was trying to live on 79 dollars a month, and it
was pretty rough, so I called the scout that had offered me the contract that
I had turned down to go into the service, to see if I could still get that
contract. (30:00) And that weekend, they had me flying from New York to
Chicago to meet the president of the company of the association.
Interviewer: The president of the association, Mr. Wrigley himself?
Gig Smith:
No, it was… oh dear, I know it as well as I do my name. I don’t
remember.
Interviewer: He was the president of the league?
Gig Smith:
No, I didn’t meet Mr. Wrigley, he was president of the league.
Interviewer: When did you first get approached about playing professional
baseball?
Gig Smith:
Before I went into the army, and I said no, I’m going into the service.
(31:00) Because everybody was doing something – it was a different war –
everybody was collecting things, scrap metal, everybody was doing
something, and I wanted to go in too.
Interviewer: Now, the league itself doesn’t get started until the war is going along-Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: --pretty well. If you’re joining the army in 1942, did maybe did the
league contact you not long after you joined?
Gig Smith:
No, they contacted me before I went in, and I turned that down. Then,
after I got out and needed the money – at least in the summertime -- that’s
when I joined. But then my mother became ill and my father wrote me a
very sweet letter, asking me to consider if I would come home to help him.
(32:00) So I had to transfer from Pratt to what’s now DCU, And I had to
stop playing softball, too, and baseball.
�Interviewer: Let’s see, go back then to your baseball story. You go out to Chicago,
did they try you out? What happened when you got to Chicago?
Gig Smith:
No, the scouts that they sent around, they knew what you were capable of
and those things, and I was later, in the Fast Pitch Softball Hall of Fame in
Virginia. I was one of the first people to go in. And we had a team from
Virginia that went to the first national softball tournament.
Interviewer: When was that? (33:00)
Gig Smith:
That was in Detroit, don’t ask me dates. I’m 87, please! (Laughter)
Interviewer: Was that back when you were a high school player?
Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: So you were pretty well known then.
Gig Smith:
Yeah.
Interviewer: So they thought, okay, we’re going to go get her. So what team then
did they assign you to?
Gig Smith:
Kenosha. The bus was waiting for me, because I had been in school, and
the bus was sitting on the side of the road waiting for me. They were going
to one of the teams they were going to play.
Interviewer: Do you remember what it was like to first meet the people on the team
and join the team?
Gig Smith:
I don’t know, I was just happy to be there. I don’t know, I don’t
remember. I met people easily.
Interviewer: (34:00) So you made friends quickly then?
Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: Describe a little bit of what life was like in that first season.
Gig Smith:
Well, I was a rookie, so I was lucky to get in a game, but I got in a few. It
was great, I thought it was great.
Interviewer: Now, at the point when you joined, how much were they doing in
terms of enforcing the rules for dress and conduct and all of those
things?
�Gig Smith:
We had chaperones. We were supposed to look and act and conduct
ourselves like ladies at all time, but play like men. So it was a pretty big
chore for some of us. We could not drink, smoke in public. (35:00) We
had to wear a dress or skirt at all times. And in those days, there were no
nylon hose because everything was going to war, so it was pretty funny to
look at those pictures now and see bobby socks in your shoes when you
were in a dress.
Interviewer: Do you remember any of the chaperones that you had?
Gig Smith:
They were wonderful; they were really great to us. But we played a lot of
pranks. The movie was correct in some of the things that they said, like
putting limburger cheese on the light, and when she came in – as the light
got hot – when she came in the night, she went all over the place hunting
for the smell. (36:00) Then we were passing around chocolates, and we
gave an exlax to one of the chaperones
Interviewer: Now none of this was your ideas was it?
Gig Smith:
Oh, no, you don’t think? I was so innocent.
Interviewer: Were you older than a lot of the players on the team?
Gig Smith:
Oh yes, I was.
Interviewer: But were they teaching things about how to play at their level?
Gig Smith:
Well, I was good enough to play at heir level, but the rules were different.
You played off the base. They started us off with a smaller ball and to
push the bases back a little bit, you know, until we could become
accustomed to the length and the size of the ball (37:00) But I had a
strange thing happen to me. There was a girl there the year before I got
there that had the same name as I, and she played center field. I was
always the third baseman. And when I went to spring training -- evidently
Grand Rapids wanted a center fielder – they must have thought that I was
that Helen Smith. I thought you were supposed to play where they asked
you or wanted you play. So I played center field.
Interviewer: That was your second season?
Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: So, you played in Kenosha for one year, then you played with Grand
Rapids for one year.
Gig Smith:
No… yeah, yeah.
�Interviewer: What years were those? 47-48?
Gig Smith:
46-47, I think.
Interviewer: So right after the war, essentially. (38:00) The war ends in late enough
in 1945, the baseball season is pretty well done, so the next year you
come to play
Gig Smith:
Yeah, because I was in New York going to art school.
Interviewer: And then, between the baseball seasons, then, you went back home to
Virginia and you went back to art school.
Gig Smith:
Yes, I transferred
Interviewer: Did the team accommodate your school schedule, or did the season
start late enough that you didn’t have to miss school or miss games.
Gig Smith:
No, I had to stop doing both, stop playing ball.
Interviewer: In the year that you first joined the league, you would have missed the
spring training that year, right?
Gig Smith:
Yeah
Interviewer: You were coming in after that. Now the next year, the year that you
joined Grand Rapids, did you go to spring training that year?
Gig Smith:
Yeah, we were in Florida, and then they flew us to Cuba to put on
exhibition games.
Interviewer: What was that like? (39:00)
Gig Smith:
Cuba. I was happy to be home. Just leave it as that. It was rough down
there.
Interviewer: People didn’t follow quite the same rules as they did where you came
from?
Gig Smith:
Well, we were only there to put on an exhibition game. I got awfully tired
of the Cubans following us around, singing. I was hungry for American
music.
Interviewer: Did you play against Cuban teams while you were down there? Or did
you play American teams?
�Gig Smith:
I’ve forgotten, I don’t remember. We probably played our own girls, I'd
imagine.
Interviewer: Now the league did recruit some Cuban players. Did you have any
Cubans on the teams that you played for?
Gig Smith:
No
Interviewer: (40:00) Do you remember how long they had you in Cuba? Was it like
a week or a couple weeks?
Gig Smith:
In Cuba? Just a week, couple of days, a week. Bacardi opened up their bar.
That was the longest bar I’d ever seen in my life. We had one of our
leading pitchers was not a drinker, and I wanted to go to Sloppy Joe’s –
I’d always heard about Sloppy Joe’s and I really wanted to go – and we
were going there after we ate. They took us by Bacardi’s. And this leading
pitcher, who was not a drinker, and she was so out of it, that somebody
had to take her back, and I volunteered. (41:00) And I never saw Sloppy
Joe’s.
Interviewer: So what was Sloppy Joe’s
Gig Smith:
That was where Ernest Hemingway used to hang out.
Interviewer: You said this woman was drinking, where were the Chaperones while
that was all happening?
Gig Smith:
Well, you can sneak something in a Coke, and not know it, You know? In
fact, I had my first drink when I was in basic training down at Oglethorpe.
And they knew I did not drink, and that was a funny situation. Where we
left the Non-com club, there was a long row of steps, and I was just as
happy as a lark, not knowing that I was tight. I went to go down the steps,
and my arm got caught on the rail and I slid all the way down. I went into
the barracks, and everybody was asleep, and I would go through knocking
on the double bunks and I would say “I’m drunk, I’m drunk.” (42:00) And
the next day, they caught me good, because they came through banging on
pans. But that was kind of a mean trick to play; you don't know how
people are going to react. That was my first drink. Probably my last one in
the army, too.
Interviewer: So in the time you were living in Washington, you kind of resisted
whatever offers there were to go have a drink or do this or do that.
�Gig Smith:
Yeah, well, we were a specialist field, and we did not do much going out,
Because the work that we did was so directly associated with the war, that
we didn’t do a lot of that.
Interviewer: And you had to be on call and all of that? (43:00)
Gig Smith:
Yeah.
Interviewer: Let’s go back to the spring training thing. What was the spring
training in Florida like? Was training in Florida different from
Cuba?
Gig Smith:
Well, we put on exhibition games in Cuba. In spring training in Florida,
we had a lot of drills and things like that, and played different teams.
Interviewer: One of the hallmarks of the league was that you played in skirts – and
relatively short skirts at that. Did you have problems with the base
running and fielding and things?
Gig Smith:
People that slid, they had horrible strawberries. It was ridiculous. But he
wanted us to look like women.
Interviewer: Did you do a lot of sliding, or did you just hit home runs? (44:00)
Gig Smith:
No, well, I didn’t hit any home runs there. If I was lucky to get in.
Interviewer: So you didn’t play a lot in that first season?
Gig Smith:
No, not a lot. We had a girl – we were playing in Chicago – we had one of
the leading center fielders, Pat [Kagel], and she slid into second base, and
came up screaming. Her bone was sticking through the sock. I got more of
a chance to play then.
Interviewer: Was that when you were with Grand Rapids?
Gig Smith:
Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: Did you get to play any third base with either team?
Gig Smith:
No, they didn’t know I was a third baseman. I thought you played where
they wanted you to play. I caught in the army, because nobody was stupid
enough to get back there (45:00)
Interviewer: Which position did you prefer to play?
Gig Smith:
Third base, definitely.
�Interviewer: Do you remember much about Kenosha or about Grand Rapids, the
communities you were playing in? What were the fans like in those
places?
Gig Smith:
The fans were great by the time I got there. I think the people that
preceded me had a rough time in the beginning. But when they found out
the caliber of ball that was being played… and I was amazed, because we
had some fantastic players.
Interviewer: Who were some of the best players that you played alongside?
Gig Smith:
I think Kamencheck was probably the best one. She was a first baseman
and left-hander. She could do anything. (46:00) Dottie Schroeder played
longer than anybody, but she was not the best hitter. She caught an
unbelievable ball that was hit a line drive over second base, and I don’t
know how she got to it, but she was fantastic. But Kamencheck was a
fantastic first baseman. She caught a ball that was hit so hard, she just
whirled around, and she ended up backwards when she caught that ball. I
don’t' know how she caught it either. Those were the two things that I
recall.
Interviewer: Now when you were playing, are there particular either plays that you
made or hits that you got?
Gig Smith:
No, I remember I hit a ground ball to Sophie Kurys. I was running to first
base, and the hat slid down over my eyes. I had a time with that.
Interviewer: (47:00) Did you hit the base?
Gig Smith:
I don’t know. All I remember is the hat sliding down and I couldn’t see a
thing. I was trying to push it up and run faster.
Interviewer: If it hadn’t been for your family situation back at home, would you
have stayed in the league a little bit longer?
Gig Smith:
Yes, definitely. I would have stayed in art school, too. I mean, I would
have finished at Pratt.
Interviewer: Then, after your second season playing ball, you come back home to
Virginia. Did you complete your degree down there?
Gig Smith:
Yes, at VCU. Then I taught for 31 years.
Interviewer: Where were you teaching? (48:00)
�Gig Smith:
I was teaching at Richmond Public Schools. I taught all grades, the last
eight years, I taught emotionally disturbed – not retarded – emotional
cases. I had some funny experiences there.
Interviewer: Could you tell us one of those?
Gig Smith:
Yes, I can tell you one of them I can tell you a couple of them. We had
one fella that did not like to – this was in the shop class, because I taught
art in shop – and he was working on a wooden project. He just did not
want to sand it properly, and he wanted to stain it or put some shellac to
finish it. He came to me – they had to come to be before they could the
next step – and I kept saying, because he was lazy and didn’t want to do it,
and he came back to me and he said, and this as after the third or fourth
time, he said “Mrs. Smith, I don’t care, I’m going to pay for it.” (49:00)
And I said, “Let me tell you something, Jesse. I’m a teacher that takes
pride in my teaching. If you walk out that door with a project, it’s going to
be done right." About three weeks later, or maybe a month later, a new
student came into that class. He was trying to pull the same trick that Jesse
pulled. I didn't know Jesse was behind me, and I said, “nope, it's not
right." I could hear his voice pop in, and he said, "Man, let me tell you
something, Ms. Smith takes pride in her teaching, and you’re not going to
go walking through that door with a project unless it’s done right.” I had
to cover my nose, I was laughing. I didn’t know if I’d have gotten through
to him at all. I liked those emotionally disturbed, maybe it was because I
was. (50:00)
Interviewer: I think that, even today, we still often find that classes like that, where
they can get hands on and do their own things, often students can
learn that way, if they’re not doing the conventional way. But you
must have been a pretty good teacher to get that kind of response.
Gig Smith:
I think I had more empathy for what they were going through. I had one
little girl that came in – I taught shop and art both – one little girl came
into the class. Tears were running down her eyes. She said, "I've just got to
talk to you, I've just got to talk to you." I said, well, let me get the class
started and we'll walk out in the hall." And she said, "my father kept us up
with a gun, drunk, all night.” So I think I did more good not necessarily by
teaching them art and shop, but I think I did more good in other ways.
(51:00) I think I was more successful with them, because they’d come to
me before they’d go to a counselor.
Interviewer: So they must have trusted you, or you were the person that they could
talk to.
Gig Smith:
Yeah, they knew that. And I had a little boy who was so sissy, it was just
pitiful. And they were kidding him all the time because he couldn’t throw
�a ball, or couldn’t throw like the boys threw. So one day, I asked him to
bring a softball up after school, the first thing I said, was “just throw me
the ball.” And he stepped on the wrong foot first, you know. Throwing
right… and I said, no, change. And we stayed there fifteen, twenty
minutes, until he could throw a ball. (52:00) And they didn’t kid him any
more. But they were the types of things that I think were more meaningful
to those kids than whether they could be a good artist or not.
Interviewer: During the time when you were working there, did anybody know
that you had been a professional ball player?
Gig Smith:
No, I didn’t dare tell anybody. When the movie came out, a friend of mine
knew that I had played, and she called up the newspaper and didn’t tell
me. And he called me and he said, I’d like for you to go and critique the
movie with me. And the next day, there was a full spread in the newspaper
with pictures and everything. I thought, oh dear Father, it is finally out.
(53:00) I hadn’t told anybody because softball was not looked upon like
tennis and golf, and yet it takes more strength to do those two, than it does
for sometimes to play right field and wait for a ball to come to you.
Interviewer: What did you think of the movie?
Gig Smith:
I thought it was funny, and I thought it also touched the human element. I
thought it was really good. It was really good, I liked it.
Interviewer: Were there parts of it that you thought were a little inaccurate or
Hollywood-ish?
Gig Smith:
Oh, of course. Tom Hanks urinating for ten minutes? We would have
thrown him out.
Interviewer: What sort of managers did you have during the two years that you
played?
Gig Smith:
(54:00) I had excellent managers. I had Johnny Rawlins – played for New
York – and we had good managers, we really did. We had nice
chaperones, we did. We were really restricted din what we could do.
Interviewer: What kind of living accommodations did you have while you played?
Gig Smith:
Usually, we lived in somebody’s home.
Interviewer: How did that work?
Gig Smith:
Well, I’m not going to tell you the first night I got there, because the next
day, I asked to have a new roommate. I was with Al Hallet, who was one
�of the leading pitchers at the time, and it was real good. She and Ruth
Lessing, we used to chum around together.
Interviewer:
The people who were your best friends in these teams, were they some
of the ones were older players closer to your age, or were some of
them younger. (55:00)
Gig Smith:
I never thought about age, you know?
Interviewer:
Let’s go back to life afterward again. The movie comes out, and so
forth. At what point do you start getting involved with the
organization?
Gig Smith:
I went to the first reunion in Chicago and I’ve been associated with them
ever since. That movie has opened up more doors me than you could
imagine. I’ve been to the White House twice, they wanted somebody who
had been in the service and also played in the league. They sent me to
Hawaii to make speeches at the army bases there for equal opportunities.
(56:00) They had a really nice program once a year for that type of thing,
and I was guest of honor then. I didn't see much of Hawaii but I saw the
army bases.
Interviewer:
At the time you were playing, did you have any sense that you were
sort of making history or were doing something important?
Gig Smith:
No, no. All I knew was that we were keeping baseball alive for Mr..
Wrigley, because President Roosevelt had called him and said I'm afraid
we're going to have to fold the men's league association because we need
every man that we can get. He asked one of his assistants if we would
dream up something to keep baseball alive, and he came back in a couple
of days, and said, “why don’t you start a women’s league, and treat hem
exactly the way you treat the men’s league and take them to Florida for
spring training and fly them to Cuba to put on exhibition games, and let
them come back up the east coasts all the way to their home teams just
like the men’s?" (57:00) And that was what happened. But there was
nothing equal in pay. We had to be on those hot old air-conditioned
busses. We had some great players. We had one girl who pitched two
perfect games, and when she wasn't pitching, she played third base, was
married to the coach, and had a three-year-old son.
Interviewer: That was Jean Fout.
Gig Smith:
Yeah.
Interviewer: To what extent where you aware of where the league had come from
or why they were doing it? (58:00)
�Gig Smith:
We knew why they were doing it. I’ll tell you something else that was
interesting. When I went to the Pentagon -- it wouldn’t happen today -every enlisted man that came into that unit that we were working in at the
Pentagon, was given a direct commission. They didn’t have to go to OCS.
For every woman that came in there, she was given the privilege of going
to OCS if she cared to go. That wouldn’t happen today. And I did not want
to go. I turned it down when I came out of basic training, I could have
gone then. I turned this one down because I was told that if I went to OCS
– I was told by the people in the office – if I went there would be no
chance of getting back. (59:00) I was with marvelous people. I was with
people I admired and I respected and I was doing a terrific job, a job that
really dealt directly with the war. That’s where I wanted to be, I didn’t
want to leave, so I didn’t go.
Interviewer: If you had been a man coming in, you would have been commissioned
automatically?
Gig Smith:
Yeah. Automatically. No questions about it.
Interviewer: As you look back on the whole thing now, how do you see what the
significance of the league was?
Gig Smith:
Well, it’s opened up doors – unbelievable doors – for all of us I think. As I
said, I’ve been to places I never would have gone before. (1:00:00)
Interviewer: When you meet women athletes from later generations and so forth,
what’s that like?
Gig Smith:
Awesome. What has happened for women in sports… Billie Jean King
was just given a presidential honor for her job in passing Title IX, and I
know for a fact -- I think she was given either a month or two months -she was ready to throw in the towel because she had been working for a
couple of years on that, and all of a sudden they passed that. Thank
goodness they did. You can give her full credit for that because she really
put her career on the line and used her own money to do it. She’s to be
admired. (1:01:00)
Interviewer: And she’s someone who, in turn, admires your group and all the
things you do.
Gig Smith:
I think so, I think so. She’s going to be our guest of honor, so I’m sure she
does.
�Interviewer: At this point, is there any important part of your story we’ve left out?
Is there anything else you’d like to add here into the record before we
close things out?
Gig Smith:
I’m just happy for the life I’ve had. Many times I thought it wasn’t going
to work out, but everything’s worked out according to whatever divine…
Interviewer: In general, what do you think the importance of sports – baseball and
softball – what did that mean to you? How did that help you in your
life, or what did you learn from the experience of playing?
Gig Smith:
You should have given me time to think that one through! (Laughter)
(1:02:00) It has opened up so many doors, unbelievable doors, for me. The
experience has been wonderful, and it’s still wonderful. I just wish I had
about 20 more years to live.
Interviewer: Well, I can tell you that you do have a wonderful story and you’ve
done a wonderful job of telling it to us.
Gig Smith:
Thank you.
�
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_HSmith
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Smith, Helen "Gig" (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Smith, Helen
Description
An account of the resource
Helen "Gig" Smith was born on January 5, 1922 in Richmond, Virginia. She began playing softball at the age of 13. She joined the Women's Army Corps after Pearl Harbor and later was attached on special assignment to the Pentagon to decrypt Japanese codes. In 1947, she joined the AAGPBL's Kenosha Comets and then in 1948 played for the Grand Rapids Chicks. During her time in the league she played the infield. In 1948, she left the league to pursue teaching art in Virginia.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-26
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/512de0c2fbf48375bcfb8050761f04c0.m4v
d5b4439250e76137a05c1815995603ab
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1c106802744a02352d7c6210853ec0aa.pdf
0e68cc9612006380fc0ccab6af5bbd8d
PDF Text
Text
Fidler, Merrie
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Merrie Fidler
Length of Interview: (01:35:18)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “Okay, so, Merrie, just a little bit of background on you. Where and when
were you born?”
I was born in Weed, California, which is about ninety miles south of the Oregon border, on
October 31st, 1943.
Interviewer: “All right. Now did you grow up in northern California?”
Yes, I grew up about—Well, in Dunsmuir, California, which is about thirty miles south of Weed,
and then when I was seven, I moved to the Redding area, which is about fifty miles south of
Dunsmuir. So all in the northern California area. (1:00)
Interviewer: “All right, and what did your family do for a living when you were growing
up?”
My dad was a conductor on the railroad. Dunsmuir was a turnaround for the SP in northern
California. And my mother didn’t work. And she just—Well, wasn’t just a housekeeper, but, you
know, she raised us kids.
Interviewer: “She wasn’t paid. She worked, but she wasn’t paid.”
She worked, but she wasn’t paid. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay, and when did you finish high school?”
I finished high school in June of 1961.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you do once you graduate?”
Well, when I graduated, I went to college, and I started out at a junior college in the Redding
area. And then I decided to go to a bible college in Los Angeles, and I was there three years. And
I decided that I wasn’t sure I wanted to be a teacher. (2:00) So I quit school and landed in the
Sacramento area where my sister lived and got a job as a secretary at the PE department at the
University of California at Davis, which is just outside of Sacramento.
1
�Fidler, Merrie
Interviewer: “Okay. Now in your early life, did you play sports, or did you get out a lot, or
did you develop that interest later?”
No. My dad and brothers—I had two brothers, and they were eight and ten years older than I.
And my dad was a rabid Yankees fan. And so we listened to Yankees games on the radio from as
early as I can remember. And my dad and two brothers played on a city league team when my
brothers got old enough to do that. And I remember as about a four-year-old going to the city
park every Sunday afternoon or to one of the neighboring city parks to watch Dad or the boys
play baseball. And so I grew up with sports, and as soon as I went to school, I played ball on the
playgrounds. And my brothers had played catch with me as I grew up and showed an interest.
And so when I was in the first grade, I was out on the playground playing with the older kids,
and they were sometimes amazed that I could hit the ball almost as well as they could. So I grew
up playing volleyball, basketball, and softball through school.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, when you were training to be a teacher, were you training to do
PE or just general elementary or something else?” (4:04)
I trained to—I majored in physical education and planned to teach either high school or college.
Interviewer: “Okay. And so you got sort of sidetracked, but now we’ve gotten you—You’re
now working as a secretary in the PE department, and then how do you move on from
there? I mean, eventually you get more education.”
Well, I—My office was right above the swimming pool, and I worked for the—I did work for
several of the coaches as well as the intramural sports program. And one day I was looking at the
swimming coach, and I’m watching him coach the swimming team, and I thought, “You know, I
don’t think I want to be a secretary the rest of my life.” So I went back to school and got my BA
and teaching credential, and a flyer came across the desk for a job at—for an intramural assistant
at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. And I was graduating—getting my teaching
credential at the end of that semester, and so—And I was very familiar with intramurals, having
done all of the administrative stuff for it, and also while I was back at school, I had gone to
working as an intramural assistant part-time. And I flew back and had an interview, and they
hired me. And when I was there, I could work on a master’s degree as a staff member without a
lot of expense, and I thought, “Well, I should take advantage of that opportunity.” And I did, and
at that time UMass Amherst had a sport history track in the physical education master’s degree
program. (6:08) And science was never one of my strong points, so I opted for the sport history.
And I took a course called “American Women in Sport” as part of that.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what year was that?”
And that was in 1971. And part of the assignment for that course was to go through the Readers’
Guide to Periodical Literature and find all of the articles dealing with American women in sport
that we could. And in the process of that, I found a little 1943 Time magazine article about a
women’s professional softball league created by Philip Wrigley. Well, I knew about Philip
Wrigley, and I thought, “Boy, I’ve been playing softball all these years, and I never heard about
this league.” Of course, I was way off on the West coast, and this was in the Midwest. So I talked
2
�Fidler, Merrie
to one of my doctoral student colleagues and asked him, “You know, how would I find out more
about this league?” And he said, “Well, why don’t you write to the league city newspaper sports
editors and see if there’s anybody around that remembers anything?” And so at that time I only
knew that there were four teams in the league, and so I wrote. And the sports editor from South
Bend—his name was Joe Boland—he had been the scorekeeper and also a—on the board of the
South Bend Blue Sox team. And he responded and said, “Well, you need to get in touch with
Jean Faut Winsch,” who I learned later was one of the best overhand pitchers in the league.
(8:11) And so I contacted her and asked her if I could stop and interview her on the way home
from Christmas vacation that year. And she said yes, and so I did that. And in the process of
interviewing her, she brought out nine three-inch-wide binders of league and team board meeting
minutes that one of the directors—one of the presidents of the South Bend team had put together.
And I looked through those, and I said, “You know, Jean, there’s no way I can do justice to these
on a weekend. Would you trust me to take them with me?” And bless her heart. She did. And I
used those. There was a lot of information, especially the league board meeting minutes. A lot of
information in those that I was able to use in the book. And that was the starting point of my
research, and so I wound up doing my master’s degree—my master’s thesis on the—Well, my
thesis is entitled, “The Development and Decline of the All-American Girls Baseball League.”
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of range of research did you do for the thesis? I mean,
you had her materials. Did you contact other people or other teams or things like that?”
Well, while I was at South Bend, Jean arranged interviews with me for—with Chet Grant who
had been a manager of the South Bend team, with Lucille Moore who had been a chaperone,
with Ed DesLauriers who had been a business manager, and with Lucille Moore who had been a
chaperone, and also with Lib Mahon and Betsy Jochum who still lived in South Bend and had
been players. (10:10) And so I interviewed them, and in the process of the interview with Chet
Grant, he said, “Well, you ought to get in touch with Arthur Meyerhoff.” And at that time I
didn’t know who Arthur Meyerhoff was, but Chet said, “Well, he worked with Wrigley and
getting the league started, and he ran the league for a few years.” And he gave me his contact
information. And so I wrote a letter to Mr. Meyerhoff and asked if I could arrange an interview
with him. And I believe that was the next Christmas vacation. I went home to California, and he
lived down by San Diego and was there at that time. And so I drove down and interviewed him,
and in the course of the conversation, he said, “Well, you know, you really ought to come to my
office at the Wrigley building in Chicago and go through my files.” And so I believe it was the
next summer—It may have been two summers. I don’t recall at the moment. But the following
summer I went to his office in the Chicago building. I spent a week or eight-hour days going
through his files on the All-American League, and it was really nice because he had this nice, big
desk in his office, you know, and his secretaries would bring file drawers in to me, and I’d go
through them. And he let me copy things, and if there were extra copies of things, I could take
one. And so I just kind of fell into a lot of wonderful primary material for my thesis. (12:08)
Interviewer: “So what was the reaction of these people as you’re contacting them? Were
they surprised anyone was interested? Did they think it was about time?”
They were mostly surprised, you know, and the common question is, “Well, why are you
researching this lady?” And I said, “Well, I just was fascinated by the fact that there was this
3
�Fidler, Merrie
professional softball league that I had never heard of.” And I had always played softball and, you
know, been a baseball fan, and so it just captured my interest.
Interviewer: “Okay, now you—So did it take sort of several years to do the thesis, or…?”
Yes, I was working full-time and taking classes part-time, and in the meantime I had moved to
St. Paul, Minneapolis—St. Paul, Minnesota where I got another job as an intramural sports
assistant. And the reason I moved from UMass to Minnesota was because the professor I was
working closely with had gotten a job there, and I wanted to finish up my work with him. And
that was beneficial because in one of the PE department meetings, they had the intramural folks
in there, too, and so some of the women on the PE staff, you know, got together and were
talking. And so I gravitated there, and so they asked me what I was doing my thesis on, and I
said, “Well, I’m doing it on the All-American Girls Baseball League.” (14:00) And unbeknownst
to me, Nancy Mudge Cato, who had played in the league, was there in that group and said, “Oh, I
played in that league.” And so I got to interview her, and she then put me in touch with Jean
Cione who was working at the University of Michigan who I later arranged to interview, too. So
that’s kind of how I met some of the players that I was able to interview.
Interviewer: “Okay, now at the time you’re doing this work in the 70s, was there any kind
of organization? Did the players have an association then?”
No, they didn’t. They were all—A lot of them were kind of freshly retired, but they hadn’t—And
they kept in touch with individuals, but there was no group organization. But I had contacted—
been able to contact Marilyn Jenkins in Michigan, and she had put me in touch with June Peppas
who was also in Michigan and a couple of other players. And it was fortunate that I had a contact
with June Peppas. When I finished my thesis, I sent a copy of it to all of the players that I had
interviewed, and so Marilyn obviously got a copy of it. And she shared it with June, and June
wrote me a letter one time and said, “Would it be all right—”And June was a printer. And she
asked if it would be okay if she made copies of it and shared it with other players, and I said,
“Sure.” Because I was happy to get it out there, you know. And then it was June—And I don’t
know if my thesis was the stimulant or not or had a part in it, but June was the one who started
the newsletter with the purpose of having a national reunion. (16:13) And so I always like to
think that my thesis had a little bit to do with it, but I don’t know that it did.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. When did they have their first reunion?”
Their first reunion was in 1982. It was July of 1982.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then can I go back, I guess, to your career trajectory? Okay,
you’ll finish the thesis. Now do you go on to an academic position at that point, or what do
you do next?”
Well, when I was just about to finish writing my thesis, my dad had a serious heart attack, and so
I told my mom I’d come home and help out. And she says, “Don’t you come before you finish
that thesis.” Because she knew that once I got away that I probably wouldn't. And so I said,
“Okay. I’ll finish it this summer and then come home.” And so I did that. And she was a realtor,
4
�Fidler, Merrie
and I helped her out in her office for a little bit and did substitute teaching. And through the
substitute teaching, I got a job at a high school nearby—Anderson Union High School—and
taught there for twenty-seven years and retired in 2003.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now you did eventually, I guess—Let’s back up a little bit. So you had
made your contacts with the league. So then did you continue to stay in touch with those
people and communicate with them?”
Yeah, I did. I was able to attend that first reunion and met some more of the players there, and I
even spoke to the group about my dream—was that they would establish a centralized location
for their memorabilia and documents and stuff like that. (18:15) And Dottie Collins was there,
and she wrote me later that she shared that dream. And so she, you know, asked me if I was
going to do anything about that. And I was in California, and I said, “No, it would be better if
you did that someplace that was centralized to the league.” And so the players started getting
together then in little mini reunions and started talking about, you know, what to do, and then
Sharon Roepke had kind of a similar experience to mine. She heard about the league from a
friend and went to the Hall of Fame to find out more and found out that the Hall of Fame didn’t
have anything. And so then she made it her objective to get the Hall of Fame to recognize the
league, and in the process she asked me for a copy of my thesis, which I gave her. But she was
able to travel to the different cities where players were, and she located them through the phone
books and tax records and that sort of thing. And she actually traveled to where they were to
interview them and all. And then they started having mini reunions together. And in one of those
mini reunions, Ruth Davis from South Bend—she had been a bat girl for the Blue Sox and had a
contract to play in the 1955 season, and, of course, the league ended in 1954—but she was at that
meeting, and she said, “Well, let’s have a national reunion.” (20:30) And everybody said, “Well,
that’s a good idea, but it’s going to be a lot of work.” And Ruth said, “Well, it can’t be too hard.”
And she arranged the first reunion. Well, when they all got together then—And then they started
talking about being recognized in the Hall of Fame, and Sharon Roepke was at that first reunion
and started, you know, stirring the pot for that. Well, they finally were able to do that and get the
league recognized in the fall of 1988, and I was able to go to that reunion. And then, of course,
they started the newsletter, and I wrote some little articles for the newsletter. And then when the
Players Association organized, you know, I always paid dues so I could keep the newsletters
coming. And I wasn’t able to go to any other reunions because most of them were held in the fall
of the year when I teaching and coaching. But when I retired in 2003, I said, “Well, one of the
things I want to do is go to another All-American reunion.” And that year the reunion was in
Syracuse, New York, and one of the—And that’s where I met Jane Moffet, who was on the
board of directors at the time, and Dolly White. (22:09) And Jane and Dolly encouraged me to
see if I could get my thesis published because they had read it. And so one of the activities we
did during that reunion was to go to the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown and see the women in
baseball display there and some other things, of course. And so I talked to the research librarian
there, Tim Wiles, and asked him if he knew any publishers that I could approach with my thesis.
And he recommended a couple. And so I wrote to McFarland, and they agreed to publish it. So I
did some additional research on the Players Association at that point because I was impressed
with how much they had come together and some of the things they had accomplished. And so I
added more information, and then, in the meantime, I’d been in contact with other players and so
I incorporated some information from interviewing them.
5
�Fidler, Merrie
Interviewer: “Because the book itself seems pretty comprehensive at least to the outsider.
It’s certainly valuable when you’re trying to make a documentary about the subject. But
yeah. Because you cover very carefully the history of the league in a lot of dimensions and
what’s going on, and so it’s sort of the starting point for anybody doing research.
Occasionally, some of my own students. Yeah, so we appreciate your having done that. Now
there were some other things getting published. So Sharon Roepke—Did she have a book,
too?”
She had a small book—more pamphlet-sized—that she did on the history of the league. (24:02)
But she didn’t do a big one. Her focus after the players were recognized by the Hall of Fame was
in making baseball cards for the players, and so she started that effort.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay, and then one of the, I guess, sons or nephews of one of the
players made his own documentary back in the 80s.”
Yeah, Kelly Candaele.
Interviewer: “And that, in turn—Now was that what got Penny Marshall’s attention
originally?”
Yes, that was aired on PBS at least in the Los Angeles area and maybe nationally. I’m not for
sure. But an assistant of Penny Marshall’s saw it, and Penny Marshall was a big Yankees fan
also. Baseball fan. And she saw it and then decided that she wanted to make a movie of it. And
that process went in a little bit of a roundabout way, but eventually she wound up as director of A
League of Their Own.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of impact did the film have on the association?”
Well, in one fell swoop, it informed the United States and Canada and the rest of the world as it
went to those countries that there was a women’s professional baseball league that existed during
World War II. And the film was pretty historically accurate. There were some scenes that were
entertainment, but it was fairly historically accurate. And it was well-done. (26:04) And it
captured the interest of anybody who went to see it. And it became one of those films that you go
back and see again and again, and when it’s on TV, you watch it again. And so—And it’s still,
you know—You ask somebody if they’ve seen A League of Their Own. They go, “Oh, yes, that
was one of my favorite movies.”
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, and even a lot of younger people have seen it, so it’s still—It has
legs, if you will.”
And I’ve heard that there’s a possibility they’ll start showing it again on the big screen.
Interviewer: “Okay. Let’s see. Now did the film—Did that bring in more of the former
players to the association?”
6
�Fidler, Merrie
Well, what it did is it made people aware of them, and then they started talking about—to others
that they had been players in that league. And yes, it was baseball, not softball. And then they
began getting the recognition that they should have had much earlier. And people began seeking
autographs. They were invited to Major League parks to throw out the first pitch. And people
began having, you know—Local baseball and softball teams would ask them to come and speak.
And so they began getting a lot of recognition and deservedly so.
Interviewer: “All right. Now let’s—Going to back up a little bit now to kind of—sort of talk
about the league’s history itself. Now you mentioned early on—You talked about Philip K.
Wrigley. And can you kind of just—sort of tell the basic story there? What happened and
how the league came about to begin with?” (28:07)
Yes. World War I, of course, started in 1941. World War II. I’m sorry. World War II started in
1941, and Major Leaguers and Minor Leaguers started being drafted or signing up for the war.
And, of course, Wrigley—Landis, the commissioner of baseball, made his appeal to President
Roosevelt about if baseball should go forward or not, and the president said yes. He thought it
was good for the country to have that kind of entertainment. But then, in the fall of 1942, the
War Department was going to have a big manpower push in the summer of 1943, and they told
the Major League Baseball owners this and that there was a good chance that Major League
baseball would have to be postponed for that season at least. And Wrigley was a very—I can’t
think of the word I want to use right now, but he was the type of businessman that was very
creative. Entrepreneur. And he knew that if baseball was postponed that his Wrigley Field both
in Los Angeles and in Chicago would be empty, and there were a lot of jobs there. And so he
was—He wondered what he could use those fields for to keep them up and running. And so he
had some people that he asked to research. And in the 30s especially and early 40s, softball was a
very popular sport for both men and women, and the amateur softball associations at that time
promoted women’s softball just the same as they did men’s. (30:25) They had city, district,
regional, and national competitions for both, so the skill of the woman players was very good
because, you know, those that went to the national playoffs, they had to be good to get there.
And in the—at the end of the softball seasons, Wrigley had his field available for the
championship games for the city. And so he knew softball was—And he would—It would fill the
stands and for both the men and the women. And so the committee came up with—that softball
would be a good alternative for baseball in the fields. And so he came up with the idea. “Well,
let’s organize a women’s professional softball league.” And he originally was going to put it in
the large baseball diamonds but decided for whatever reason to keep it in the smaller cities where
war production was going on to provide recreation for the war workers. And his advertising
agent, Arthur Meyerhoff, was one of the people he utilized to go to the cities that he had chosen
and, you know, work with the businessmen there to back—help back the teams. (32:17) And so
he started the All-American Girls Softball League. That was the title, but the rules of play were
those of baseball because he thought that baseball was a better spectator sport than softball
because there was more pitching. There was leading off and stealing. And although the basepaths
and pitching distance were shorter than baseball’s regulation field, they used baseball bats, all
players used gloves, which was not the case with softball at the time, there were nine fielders
instead of ten, which was common to softball at the time, they could lead off and steal—he
expanded the basepaths longer than those of softball so that leading off and stealing was
allowed—and the pitching motion—the rules for the pitching motion in softball—in his softball
7
�Fidler, Merrie
and in baseball were the same. And so from the beginning the league played baseball rules
except for the underhand pitch. And it’s interesting to read the baseball pitching rules because
they don’t stipulate how the ball has to be delivered.
Interviewer: “And there have always been some underhand pitchers around, some of them
very successful. So that’s within the framework of the rules.”
Yes, that’s within the framework of the rules. So I like to point out that the league played
baseball from the beginning, and as time progressed, they lengthened the basepaths and the
pitching distance. And in 1948 the pitching style became overhand. (34:02) And the fans then
recognized that. “Oh, yeah, this is baseball. It’s not softball.”
Interviewer: “Now what size ball did they use when they started?”
Well, they started out with a twelve-inch softball, and in a couple of years they reduced it to an
eleven-inch. And then the next step was ten and three quarters, or maybe it was ten and a half. I
guess it was ten and a half. And then ten-inch, and then they finally—The last year of play they
used the regulation nine-inch ball.
Interviewer: “Okay, now what was the motivation for making the ball size smaller?”
Well, you know, I think probably to give the appearance more of baseball than of softball. And,
of course, they started allowing a sidearm—a modified sidearm pitch in 1946, and I think that it
was—the smaller ball was easier for the players to handle. Not quite as heavy to throw the longer
distances and that sort of thing. I’m sure those all fit in.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Now some of the pitchers talk about how it was just that much easier
to handle. The ball got smaller. They could throw more kinds of pitches and do more things
with it, too. But yeah, so instead it looks more like baseball then as they go forward. Okay,
now as the—So they have the idea to go ahead and form a league, and Meyerhoff is going
around and signed up some cities to start playing in. Now the Hollywood film spends a
certain amount of time on the whole recruitment process and so forth and scouts
wandering around far corners of the country to find talent in all sorts of odd places. How
do they actually wind up recruiting their players?” (36:04)
Well, Wrigley used his professional scouts, and they had a network. And they just started
searching for the best players all over the country and in Canada, and, you know, probably they
had some cow pasture encounters just like the movie had. They also had encounters with urban
areas like Cincinatti, Chicago, Boston, Regina, Saskatchewan, you know, where there were big
centers of softball. Detroit.
Interviewer: “Was there a substantial group in California, too?”
Yes, there was a group in California. They came a little bit later. I think they were the 1944 crop
from the LA area. Softball. And I’d like to say about the softball—That title was only used the
first year, and about midway through the season, Wrigley and Meyerhoff started advertising it as
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�Fidler, Merrie
girls’ baseball. And the newspaper men said, “Well, it’s not really baseball because it’s of the
underhand pitch, and it’s not really softball because of, you know, the leading off and stealing
and the use of baseball bats.” And so in—at the end of the 1943 season, they changed the name
of the league to the All-American Girls Professional Ball League. So they didn’t have soft or
base in it. (38:05) But when Meyerhoff took it over in 1945, at the end of that season, he said,
“I’m going to change it to All-American Girls Baseball because that’s the rules we’re playing.”
And so from that point on it was All-American Girls Baseball League. There was another name
change in 1951 when the local team owners bought Meyerhoff out, and they changed the name
to American Girls Baseball League. But by then in the communities it was so well-known as AllAmerican that the locals still referred to it and the newspaper articles still referred to it often as
All-American League.
Interviewer: “And that’s the name that the league itself—the association today still uses.”
Well, the Players Association changed it a little bit because they incorporated the 1944—’45
title, and from then on the title under Meyerhoff and combined it to be the All-American Girls
Professional Baseball League, which it actually was. It’s probably the most descriptive title
because it was a truly professional league.
Interviewer: “Plus, the kind of thing done to confuse poor documentary filmmakers who
try to make things simpler. ‘What label did they use?’ Yeah. Okay, now just to fill in
another piece of this then—People, I think, understand baseball versus softball. The
softball is larger than a baseball. That’s pretty easy to see. You talked about baseball bats
versus softball bats. If you’re not a softball player, what’s the difference?”
The circumference at the end of the bat. Baseball is two and three quarters, and I don’t know
exactly what softball is, but I’d say it’s probably not more than two and a quarter. I’d have to
look that up for sure.
Interviewer: “And how does that make a difference?” (40:12)
Well, it’s the amount of surface of the bat that can contact the ball. In softball, you have the
thinner bat but the larger ball, and in baseball, you have the smaller ball but the larger bat. So the
idea is that you have—probably have roughly about the same surface contact one way or the
other.
Interviewer: “And then would the baseball bat then be heavier because it’s thicker?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So you can hit the ball harder.”
Yeah. And longer. I think they’re a little bit longer. I’m not for sure on that, though. I’d have to
do a little research.
Interviewer: “Okay, but they are fundamentally two different animals. But they picked one
or the other. Okay. Let’s go back sort of to the recruitment. So they’re getting people out—
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�Fidler, Merrie
What proportion of them do you think were coming out of organized leagues as opposed to
just random individual pickups?”
I think nearly all of them came out of organized leagues because they had to have a high level of
skill to be recruited by Wrigley’s scouts, and not only did they have to be—have a high level of
skill, but they also had to present high quality of character in some fashion because he was—
Wrigley was very image conscious in his publicity and promotion even of, you know, his gum,
and he was very aware that publicity was very important to selling the product. (42:03) And so
there are—Some folks have shared with me that they believe that if there were two players that
had equal skill and one was more petite-looking, he chose—He had his scouts choose the more
petite-looking ones. And if you look at the stature of the former players today, they’re all fairly
short and, you know, sixty—seventy years ago, were probably all fairly thin and petite-looking.
Not to say that there weren’t some taller players, too, especially in the later years, but you look at
those first ones and look at their size and weight, and you get the idea. Well, you know, the petite
women in skirted uniforms playing with a high level of skill. You know, it’s something that
captured the fans and kept them coming back.
Interviewer: “So softball players wore pants, right?”
At that time, they emulated the men’s baseball uniforms, and most of the teams wore either
baseball pants or, in the warmer climes, shorts and long socks. And so the skirted uniform was a
novelty, but there again Wrigley was very image conscious. And the most acceptable women in
sport in society at that time were figure skaters, tennis players, hockey players, and they all wore
skirted uniforms. (44:09)
Interviewer: “Okay. Hockey as in field rather than ice.”
As in field hockey. Yeah, not ice hockey. Yeah, and they all wore skirted uniforms. And so he
wanted his endeavor to be socially acceptable, and I think that was one of the factors that led to
the creation of the skirted uniform.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now along with the skirted uniform, one of the things that people tend
to be aware of about the league was that when it started they had very elaborate rules and
regulations regarding how the women dressed or wore their hair or had makeup. And
there was actually a charm school run by Helena Rubinstein’s people in Chicago. I mean,
so how much of that actually happened, and how long did it last?”
Well, I think that the rules of character and dress and that sort of thing were not all that different
than what was going on in colleges at the time. You know, if you talk to women who went to
college in the 40s and 50s—They couldn’t leave their dorm rooms in pants, and they’ll tell you
stories about—Well, they had a long skirt that they wore over their jeans to go to breakfast. You
know, and then they’d go back to their room and get dressed for classes. Or wore over their
pajamas to go to breakfast. So the rules that Wrigley established for appearance off the field
were, again, rules that were the highest standard of the day. The charm school training was
actually a Meyerhoff idea as a publicity thing, you know, and it probably was stimulated by the
fact that a lot of the players emulated the walk and movement characteristics of the men’s stars.
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�Fidler, Merrie
(46:22) And so they wanted, again, to project the image of femininity, and one of the best ways
to teach that was through charm school training. Like Rubinstein was very popular at that time
period, and so they hired her and others later on. And that lasted—I’m not exactly sure how
many years, but I know at least the first three or four.
Interviewer: “Because I had—Because Anne O’Dowd, I think, started in about ‘49 or so.
Talking about going to the spring training and having it there, and she said by then there
was just a couple of teams—kind of smaller groups, not altogether in the same place—but
two teams were together, and there was a charm school there. Others talked about going
around the same time. So I was kind of surprised there was still something around that
late, but did that just kind of depend on what the teams did?”
Well, that may have been that particular team’s—one of their focuses that—Yes, that’s the image
they wanted their team to project. And, again, new players coming in, you know, would—may
have had more manly mannerisms of movement and that sort of thing, and they wanted to
instruct them, you know. You know, in public this is how you walk and act and that sort of thing.
(48:04)
Interviewer: “Now when they’re first recruiting the players, how old were they?”
Well, I think in 1943 there were some players that started out at age fifteen. In fact, I think
Sophie Kurys was only fifteen. Well, I know Dottie Schroeder was only fifteen that year. And
I’ve done a little research, and I think that that was—that they didn’t recruit players any younger
than fifteen because of the child labor laws. But there was a clause in the child labor laws that
individuals who were in a professional sport could be recruited at age fifteen. Well, Dolly White,
I know—They first—She went to spring training in Pascagoula in 1946, and she was only
fourteen at the time. And her mother talked to Max Carey who was running the camp at that
time, and she asked about if she was good enough. And he said, “Well, we don’t want to take her
now because she’s a little bit young.” And her mother said, “Well, I didn’t want you to take her.
I just wanted to know if she was good enough.” And he said yes, and then he contacted her the
following year. And she went to spring training in Cuba at age fifteen and was contracted to play
with the league at that time. (50:01)
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when the league started up, what kind of response did they get
that first year or so?”
Well, I think that first year with four teams they had over 176,000 spectators, so that was really
pretty good.
Interviewer: “And it was a shorter season than the modern Major League season is.”
Right. They started at the end of May, and, I believe, finished right at the beginning of
September. Like the first week of September. But they still played like a hundred games that
season, and Chet Grant said, “You know, I went to the first game because I think it was—Marty
McManus was coaching.” And he had been a Major League player. And he said, “I really went
to see him.” But he said, “Once I saw them play and the skill that they had and all—” He said, “ I
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�Fidler, Merrie
was captivated, and I kept going back. And that’s how I became involved in becoming a manager
of the league.” And that’s kind of the response you get from people you talk to or fans. They
were captivated by the skill that they displayed.
Interviewer: “And it did well enough that the league expanded after that.”
Yes, and that started under Meyerhoff, I believe, in 1945. They expanded with two more teams,
and then in a couple years it was two more. In ‘47 they had eight teams, and then in ‘48 they
expanded to ten teams. And probably would have been better if they had kept to the eight teams
because they diluted their talent pool a little bit. (52:10)
Interviewer: “Yeah. Did they have problems recruiting new players?”
Well, as the league transitioned from more like softball to more like baseball, they had trouble
getting softball players skilled enough to make the transition to the longer basepaths and longer
pitching distance. And then after 1948 dealing with overhand pitching instead of underhand
pitching. And one of my theories is that if they had left the game where it was in 1948 or maybe
1949 with the basepaths and the pitching distance that it may have lasted longer because I think
that going to the baseball distances that the men use was beyond the talent of the players at that
time, especially those with the image of petite women. I mean, nowadays women who are—
because they have it in the schools—Women who are taller and stronger, you know, can handle
the longer basepaths and pitching distance a little better. But at that time they didn’t recruit that
kind of a player, and probably those women who were taller and stronger at that time period
didn’t have the training, you know, to get involved in the league. (54:07)
Interviewer: “Okay. Now one of the things the league did at a certain point in its history
was that they created a couple of sort of junior level teams that were traveling teams or
barnstorming teams that would travel together around the country on buses, and they
played each other in exhibition games as a means of preparing some of these new players to
make that transition. So when were they actually doing that?”
I believe that started in 1949, and actually there was a precursor to that in the Chicago area.
Meyerhoff set up a minor league in the Chicago area. There were four teams, and they played—
the same uniforms, the same rules—and they were younger players from the playground areas.
And they signed contracts and everything just like the All-American League did. And then in
1948 they had ten teams, and the season was not as successful. And so they dropped back to
eight teams. Well, they—Some of those players were not as skilled as the rest of the AllAmericans, but they had potential. And so Meyerhoff started off in 1949 with what he called
rookie touring teams. There were two teams, and they traveled together on the same bus. And he
scheduled them to play exhibition games through the South and up the East coast. And it was a
training ground for them. And some of them during the season were called up from the touring
team, were recommended by the manager, called up from the touring team to fill in for
somebody who had been injured on one of the All-American teams. (56:12) And that—Those
touring teams operated in 1949 and 1950, and during the 1950 season, they were especially
blessed by being able to play in exhibition games in Griffith Stadium in Washington, D.C and
Yankees Stadium in New York. And so that was fun.
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�Fidler, Merrie
Interviewer: “Okay. Now why did that stop? Because they don’t—They’re not doing it at
the end of the league.”
Well, at the end of the 1950 season, the individual team directors decided that the money they
were paying from gate receipts to management or to Meyerhoff for advertising and publicity and
umpires and that sort of thing—that they could do it themselves for less money, and they’d make
money on it instead of losing money on it because, you know, baseball—Even Major League
Baseball owners lose money on baseball. And there were some factors in effect that reduced fan
participation. And so they bought Meyerhoff out, and they felt that the rookie touring teams were
too expensive. And so they cut off one of the player development programs that was there, and in
my mind they started cutting off their nose to spite their face. (58:15) And another thing they
did—And, you know, they were businessmen, and it’s hard to understand why except that money
was getting tight. And there was a recession in the works, you know, nationally. But they didn’t
seem to understand that the rookie touring team was publicity and promotion as well as player
development. And another thing that they cut fairly dramatically was the general publicity
program that Meyerhoff had set in place. And so to me that was another factor that, you know—
They whittled off a little more of their nose to spite their face. And so that’s why that transpired.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now kind of backtracking into another piece of this—We’ve talked
some about, you know, who the players were and where they came from and what kind of
experience or talent—skills and stuff they had when they came in. Now the spring training
for the league changed a lot depending on what year you were in. So the first year that was
Wrigley Field or in Chicago someplace else?”
No, it was at—The first year was in Wrigley Field in Chicago. Well, they had whittled down the
number of players pretty much with tryout schools in urban areas like Cincinatti and Regina and
Chicago and Detroit and wherever else they got players from. (1:00:00) And then in ‘44 I
believe it was in Peru, Illinois. And one of the unique things about the league is that they took all
of the players for all of the teams and had spring training together, and then instead of the team
directors picking players, the league had an allocation committee that got together. And it
included the managers and Meyerhoff and some of the administrative people, and they tried to
delegate players to teams on an equal skill basis. So if they had four strong first basemen, that
was good. They could put them around. But if they had two strong first basemen—second
basemen and two weak ones, then they tried to say, “Okay, this team has so many strong players.
We’ll give them one of the weaker second basemen in order to even out the competitive level of
all four teams or all eight teams as the case may be.” And, in theory, that was good.
Interviewer: “Now once a player was assigned to a team, did it become kind of customary
to keep a lot of those same players from one year to the next? They would move some
periodically.”
Yeah. I think each team tried to keep a core of players that were the most skilled and became fan
favorites like, I’m sure, Dorothy Kamenshek in Rockford. (1:02:15) You know, she was a
Rockford Peach her whole career in the league, and I suspect that Rockford had dibs on her, you
know, kind of thing. And they also had kind of a unique system of—If a particular regular player
13
�Fidler, Merrie
on a team got injured or ill or pregnant, you know, and couldn’t play for a period of time, that
they would borrow a substitute from another team in order to fill in that position. Like, for
instance, a first baseman on another team—a substitute first baseman on another team might be
almost comparable to the starter on this team, and so they’d pull her over and have her play until
the other player could come back or just keep her, depending. Because everything was operated
by a central office instead of by individual team offices. And so that’s how they dealt with that.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what determined where the league had spring training? Because
they were in all sorts of odd places. Pascagoula, Mississippi, Opa-Locka, Florida, Cuba. I
mean, what was at work there?”
You know, I don’t know except that after the war—During the war, they had to train in fairly
local centers because of gas and rubber rationing. (1:04:08) There was no outside transportation.
Once the war was over, 1946 was the first spring training where they all went to Pascagoula, and
my feeling is that prices were cheaper in the South than, say, in the Chicago area. And in
Pascagoula, they utilized an abandoned Navy base for rooms and, you know, food. And they had
fields there. Plenty of field space. And they could have everybody together and have spring
training in the South like the big leagues did. You know, I think that was probably part of it. And
it was, you know, a novelty and might be a recruiting tool, you know, to say, “Oh, we’re going to
hold spring training in the South this year.” You know, as opposed to Regina, Saskatchewan.
Where it would be warmer and more pleasant and that sort of thing. The Cuba trip, I really
believe, was done through connections with Branch Rickey. And, of course, ‘47 was the first
year that Jackie Robinson could play, and they didn’t want to go to the South with him because
they knew there would be problems because of segregation, integration, and that sort of thing.
And so the Dodgers went to Cuba. Well, Branch Rickey and Philip Wrigley, you know, had
joined together to start the league, and then there was Max Carey who was a good friend of
Branch Rickey. (1:06:07) And I think they kind of, you know, collaborated on, you know, that
spring training in Cuba even with the flight expenses would be cheaper than in the South. And
they had good facilities. They had good hotels. And, you know, it was—The Dodgers were going
to be there, and the All-Americans could follow. And they captured the fans there in Cuba who I
have since learned that—and I forget who the researcher—who the newspaper guy was—but he
was a black man, and he said he went to Cuba when the Dodgers did to follow Jackie Robinson
and reported back to his paper that he knew that the Cubans were very religious, and he found
out that baseball was their religion. And so it was natural for the Cuban baseball public to come
out and watch the girls play. And, in fact, I know that Max Carey worked with a gentleman from
Cuba to train some Cuban woman players in the All-American game before the All-Americans
got there so that they could have a game together. And so that was the first exposure of Cuban
women to the All-American baseball, and, in fact, they had a Cuban woman player join the AllAmerican League, come back to play with the team, but she was too homesick and couldn’t stay.
Vialat was her last name. (1:08:05) And that was the beginning of the league kind of drafting
Cuban players to play in the league.
Interviewer: “Okay, because there were a number of Cubans who wound up playing for
them.”
Yes.
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�Fidler, Merrie
Interviewer: “Okay. Now after the Cuba trip, they—or at least some of them also did a
kind of Latin American tour. Central America, South America. At least around the
Caribbean. When was that, and how did that work?”
Okay. After the 1947 season, Meyerhoff took a team of players to Cuba, and they did exhibition
games there. And that was pretty successful. And along the way—And I’m not exactly sure
when Meyerhoff conceived this, but he conceived of starting an international girls’ baseball
league to include Cuba and Puerto Rico. And I think it built in his brain, you know. “Well, why
don’t we go to Latin America and do some exhibition games and see what we come up with?
And maybe it will be very lucrative.” Because fans would come to see a novelty like that, and
there were baseball people and teams there and all. And it’s my theory that he went to cities in
Guatemala and those Central American countries—and Venezuela and Puerto Rico—where
Wrigley had gum enterprises going. (1:10:01) And he did that in the winter of 1949. That
particular trip was from February—the month of February and part of March in the winter of
1949. And there’s a—At the South Bend History Museum, there’s a folder of stuff that
Annabelle Lee contributed, and there’s a picture of the All-Americans playing against a Puerto
Rican team. And the Puerto Rican team has the same style uniform as the All-American league,
so the—And that was probably done in advance of the All-Americans getting there with the style
of uniform and the women playing. And, you know, I don’t know. One of my bucket list things
is to someday go to Cuba and Puerto Rico and go through the library newspapers and, you know,
see if I can find out if there were women’s leagues there before the All-Americans got there or if
they were developed just prior to the All-Americans getting there to play. But I know that they—
Most of the tour—Central and South America—were All-American players and Cuban players
playing against each other. Exhibition games. There was a mention somewhere in Venezuela
of—that the fans really turned out when the Venezuelan team played against the All-Americans.
And I know that the Puerto Rican teams played against the All-Americans, and, of course, in
Cuba they had Cuban teams playing against the All-Americans. (1:12:03)
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how successful was the Latin American tour? Were there
problems with it?”
There were some problems with it. Apparently, the Cuban representative who traveled with the
team was not totally honest about some of the transportation costs. And so what happened was
he charged management system more than he spent, which meant that Meyerhoff then had to put
forth more money to pay for the whole thing. And he wasn’t going to do that by himself, so he
charged the team managers to kick in to pay the players because the players said, “Well, we’re
not going to play if you don’t pay us. We’re not going to play during the regular season if you
don’t pay us.” And that was some of the star players in the league. So they helped to pay—The
team directors helped to pay Meyerhoff off, but they were not happy about it. And that was
probably part of the beginning of the conflict between management and team directors.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did the whole league go on the Latin American tour or just parts
of it?”
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�Fidler, Merrie
No, just selected players, and they were—They also used some Cuban players, and so what they
did was they allocated the players to the two teams with some All-Americans and some Cubans
so that the teams were as even as possible so when the fans went to see them, you know, there
wasn’t blowouts type of thing. (1:14:06) But it was basically All-Americans and Cuban players.
Interviewer: “Now after Meyerhoff was out of the picture, did the teams kind of go to
holding more local-wise spring training in different places, or what happened?”
Yeah. That was the beginning of teams pairing up and going to a location to have their spring
trainings together and doing their exhibitions back to their home cities together. I know there was
a year when a couple of teams went to North Carolina, and a couple went to lower Illinois, and a
couple went to upstate New York or something like that so that they got exposure. But it wasn’t
as centralized. The administration wasn’t as centralized as it had been before.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay. Let’s see. Now how long did players tend to stay in the league,
or what range do we see?”
You know, I really haven’t looked at that for the players. That would be a good thing to do. To
go to the website and go through all of the players and find out how many years they played. The
stars played longer, but some only played a year or two. One of the things that affected the length
that players could play was their ability to adjust to the longer pitching distances if they were
pitchers. The change in pitching style. I mean, there aren’t a whole lot of players that can change
from being an outstanding underhand pitcher to an outstanding overhand pitcher. (1:16:00)
There were a few. But that was a factor for pitchers. But also, you know, for catchers, throwing a
longer distance to second base was a factor. So as the league expanded the basepaths and
pitching distance, it affected whether a player could make it or not. And some of the early
pitchers, I know, when—Even like from ‘43 to ‘44, I think there was a change in the distance. A
couple of feet of the pitching distance. And some of the pitchers couldn’t adjust to that, and so
they didn’t play anymore.
Interviewer: “All right, and there were occasional people like Jean Faut. And I suppose
she’s kind of exceptional. She was really happy to go to a full overhand because—And
some of them who had learned kind of on their own or individually were throwing
overhand because that was what the boys did, which would have helped them.”
Right, and some of the outfielders with stronger arms. They trained them to become pitchers.
Like Rose Gacioch. You know, she’d been an outstanding outfielder, and as she got older, you
know, she still wanted to play. And they needed overhand pitchers, and so there were quite a few
outfielders that turned into pitchers. Helen Nordquist was one, you know.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Where did the managers come from?”
Well, you know, Wrigley was very smart. I think he knew that people would come out to see
Major League managers if they wouldn’t initially come out to watch woman baseball players.
And, you know, and some of those managers during the war may have needed a job. Some of
those former Major Leaguers may have needed a job, and he knew them, knew their character,
16
�Fidler, Merrie
and so solicited them to be managers. And some of the early managers like Johnny Gottselig—
He was a Chicago Blackhawk. (1:18:12) Wrigley knew him. He knew that he had coached
women’s softball teams up in Saskatchewan and been successful. And so that’s how he got
involved. Of course, it was after the hockey season.
Interviewer: “Okay, and at what point did he bring in Jimmie Foxx?”
Well, Jimmie Foxx actually came in in 1951, and that was after the Wrigley-Meyerhoff era. And
I should say here that Meyerhoff continued the standards and policies that Wrigley had started
with. He expanded a little bit on the field and ball dimensions, but everything else was pretty
much as Wrigley had set it up. The independent team owners—When they took over in 1951,
they kind of dropped off on some things, especially like the publicity, but, you know, they—I
think they too recognized that having a Major League manager was an advantage. And I suspect
that somebody in Fort Wayne had connections with Jimmie Foxx, and he had just recently
retired. Either that or—I’d have to go back. Whether he’d recently retired or recently been
inducted in the Hall of Fame. Anyway, they recruited him to manage in the league, and he
managed for a couple years.
Interviewer: “Yeah. I seem to recall something a few years back about complaints that
Jimmie Foxx wasn’t in the Hall of Fame. He had five hundred home runs and wasn’t
there.” (1:20:00)
No, he’s there now.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Anyway, yeah. Because I guess one of the things is the assumption like
with the Penny Marshall film. The assumption is that Tom Hanks’s character, Jimmy
Dugan, is sort of loosely modeled after Jimmie Foxx except for the little thing where
Jimmie Foxx came in a lot later. Because I think that may be an assumption that people
might have. That he’s not one of the original managers.”
No. No, he wasn’t. And that’s another thing that’s a little bit misleading about the film is that it
gives the impression that the league started with overhand pitching the first year. You know,
which is—But there again, for the purposes of the film, they wanted everybody to know that it
was baseball, not softball. And they didn’t have time to cover all of the details, but yeah, Jimmie
wasn’t one of the first managers.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, the players in their interviews—In their interviews, they talk
about different managers and so forth, and one who keeps popping up a lot is Bill
Allington. So who was he, or what was his background?”
Well, Bill Allington was a Minor League player. And I’m not sure if he managed any men’s
teams in southern California, but he managed women’s softball in southern California. And he
was also involved in acting in some of the early baseball films. And so he kind of had a couple of
jobs, I guess, but he loved baseball. I think it was Kammie that told me that she felt if Bill’s head
was cracked open, baseballs would roll out, you know. And he was a stickler for his players
knowing the rules, and he’d quiz them on bus trips. (1:22:00) They said that there was always
17
�Fidler, Merrie
quizzing going on on the bus trips. He’d say, “Kamenshek, if a fly ball is hit to an infielder with
a runner on first base, is that infield fly rule or not?” You know, that kind of thing. And I think
that’s part of why he was such a successful manager because his players knew the rules on the
field, and they reacted instinctively to situations that those who weren’t as up on the rules might
not have done. And Kammie said that after practices he took her aside. And he would work with
any of the players after practice that wanted to. And she wanted to improve her bunting. And so
he put handkerchiefs down on the ground in front of home plate and threw pitches at her and had
her work at bunting to the handkerchiefs. And one of the pitchers—I don’t remember exactly
who right now, but she said that that was one of the problems with Kammie. She could bunt that
ball anyplace she wanted to.
Interviewer: “All right. Now when the league folded, he kind of kept going in a form for the
next couple years. He created his own traveling team. So can you talk about that?”
Well, and there again, I think he recognized how skilled these women were, and he was baseball
man through and through. And he didn’t want to give up. (1:24:00) And so he put together a
team of players who were willing. He tried to recruit others who said, “No, I’ve got to go to
college this year,” or, “I got to get a real job,” or, “No, I’m getting married.” Or something of
that nature. But he put together a talented crew of players and barnstormed with them around the
Midwest and even down into the South and along the East Coast. And I think he hoped that he
could—And they played against men’s teams because there weren’t that many talented women’s
teams. And they exchanged batteries so that the men were throwing, you know, to the men
batters, and the women were throwing to the women batters. And I guess it was pretty good
entertainment. And he did that for three years. ‘55 through ‘58. And then, I guess, it didn’t
become as lucrative anymore, or it didn’t have enough players who were willing to go with him
anymore or something of that nature.
Interviewer: “And then women’s baseball kind of—to a large degree disappears. And, I
mean, there are, today, women playing baseball in various organized fashion and efforts to
kind of have more of them do it. But the league itself—Most people really didn’t know
anything about, you know—Still are people occasionally now who didn’t know.
And the film was kind of a revelation to a lot of them. I guess, sort of the question comes up
on some level. You know, were these women, you know, pioneers in sports, or did they do
things that had a lasting impact? Because you could argue on the one hand that, well, they
kind of went away and then women’s sports got going separately later. But is there more to
it than that?” (1:26:09)
Well, I think in the Midwest where the teams played—I think that had an impact on at least some
of the populace. Ruth Davis, for instance, was batgirl for the South Bend Blue Sox, and she
mentioned that the women playing baseball, which—Even at that time women weren’t supposed
to be playing baseball. That that expanded her view that, well, if women can play baseball,
women can do anything else they want. And that motivated her to seek out following her
interests in college and university. There was a fan—shoot, her name escapes me right now—
who went to the Grand Rapids Chicks games and became a professor at one of the New York
universities. Columbia University, I think. And she knew—And you have to keep in mind that
the Division for Girls’ and Women’s Sports in education at the time—Their philosophy was,
18
�Fidler, Merrie
“Yes, we want girls to play, but we want all girls to play, and we don’t want to focus on just the
skilled. We want, you know, everybody to have an opportunity to play.” Which is wonderful.
Wonderful philosophy. (1:28:01) But it didn’t provide those highly skilled girls with the
opportunity to participate in highly skilled competition like the boys had in school and colleges.
But this lady became—obtained a doctorate in physical education, and she knew from watching
the Grand Rapids Chicks that women could develop high level skills and that high level
competition was a good thing for women. And she also recognized that girls and women were
paying the same fees in college, which included intercollegiate sports that they didn’t have an
opportunity for. And so she was a moving force in the Division for Girls’ and Women’s Sports to
change the focus to allow women to have interscholastic and intercollegiate sport. And they had
strict rules, but at least they still had the opportunity to play. And so the individual teams, I
believe, had an effect on the people in the local populaces to accept women playing highly
skilled competition with each other.
Interviewer: “Okay. I guess one thing that I’ve observed in just interviewing and getting to
know a lot of the players is that they went on often to do pretty remarkable things, and a
fair number of them wind up being educators and even professionals in physical education.
And some of them were pretty much in the trenches to help promote Title IX or help
enforce it when it came in. And so they’re going out with an understanding of what they
can do and what women can do and in a lot of cases, whether it’s at a high school level or a
college level or whatever, encourage women to do it. So that piece of it certainly goes there.
So there’s not a direct, linear sort of descent from this league to the WNBA or something
like that, but a lot of those things were possible because of groundwork that does in part
come out of this.” (1:30:24)
Yeah. I think there’s a connection, like you say, especially with those who went on to college
and coached. And, you know, when Title IX was in the works, they said, “Yes. Let’s do that.”
And they did provide some of the groundwork for it because of their experience and how
satisfying playing that high level competition can be. And yeah, Dolly White, for instance—
Dolly Brumfield White—she would not have been able to go to college without the money she
earned playing professional baseball. She came from a lower class, Southern family. Just her
father worked as a mechanic. Her mother did some clerical work later. But basically she grew
up, you know, with a single parent providing for the family of two girls and a boy. And she told
me that if there was to be college for anybody, it would have been the boy. And she was really—
got upset at times with her father because the boy was always first. She was the oldest, but when
it came to having a car, the boy got the car first. Type of thing. (1:32:00) And so if she hadn’t
earned the money she earned playing professional baseball, she would never have been able to
go to college. And she went to college, majored in physical education, became a recreation
specialist, and did a great deal to educate people in the field of recreation who then went out to
become heads of recreational parks in Alabama and Arkansas and in that area where she taught.
And so, yeah, I think, you know, individually those women had influences. And like Lou Stone
Richards—She married and had a family and coached for boys’ little league teams. Well,
Andrew Card was one of those little league players, and he became George Bush’s Chief of
Staff. You know, so it’s fun to see those influences.
19
�Fidler, Merrie
Interviewer: “Well, even today long afterward the personalities of these women kind of still
stand out. They really are a pretty remarkable bunch of people, and you’ve done them a
great service by going and recording their history. And it’s kind of up to all of us, I guess,
now to make sure that people remember this and give them the credit they deserve.”
Yeah. It was a unique thing, and I think—You know, my hope and, I think, the hope of a number
of the players at least is that there comes a situation in the not too distant future where young
women will again have the opportunity to play professional baseball in their own league.
(1:34:08) They shouldn’t have to play with or against men. You know, they should have their
own league and their own competition among—excellent competition among themselves. Not
that it would be objectionable to having individual highly skilled, highly capable women play on
a men’s team. But that would not include the majority of highly skilled woman players.
Interviewer: “And in other sports, they’re already doing it.”
Yes. Like in basketball. They have a women’s professional basketball league, you know, and
they’re not asked to compete against bigger, stronger men. And I think that’s the way it should
be for baseball, too. And, you know, there’s things in the works. That hopefully it will happen.
Interviewer: “All right. I’d just like to close out here by thanking you for taking the time
and talking to me about all this.”
Oh, my pleasure. (01:35:18)
20
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_FidlerM1969BB
Title
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Fidler, Merrie (Interview transcript and video), 2016
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fidler, Merrie
Description
An account of the resource
Merrie Fidler was born in Weed, California, on October 31, 1943. She attended community college in the Redding area, then a Bible college in Los Angeles before dropping out of school and working as a secretary in the physical education department at UC – Davis. Merrie completed her bachelor’s degree and got her teaching credentials, then pursued a master’s degree at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst. During her master work, she took a course on American women in sports and discovered the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League. Over the course of several years she interviewed former players and managers and eventually completed her thesis, The Development & Decline of the All-American Girls Baseball League. She went on to contact more players and became part of the League’s association and attended the reunions. Merrie is now the association’s historian and a contributor to its newsletter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--California
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-22
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7c2b7ef52968bdc5639a8cefe3b88dd5.m4v
801928cc9c04f1b5b10aea3ffc829529
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c8b1740876438254838419adac0900ff.pdf
b6093bbd79151fdf0ec188f12ab9dda8
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Earlene Risinger
Length of Interview: (00:57:00)
Interviewed by: Frank Boring
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer August 19, 2008
Resides: Grand Rapids, MI Deceased: July 29, 2008
Interviewer: “If we can begin with your name and where and when were you
born?”
My name is Earlene V. Risinger and I was born in Hess, Oklahoma, which is hardly on
the map ever, on March 20, 1927.
Interviewer: “What were your parents’ occupations? Did you live on a farm?”
We just lived in the country and we worked for farmers, they did. I can remember way
back even, my mother and my dad lived in a big tent one time and they would pick cotton
and do anything to make a few bucks to feed their family. 1:18 I was the first born and
five or six years later I had my first brother and on down. I have three brothers.
Interviewer: “Three brothers and you. What was your early childhood like?”
Lonesome, and you didn’t know what you were going to do, but we made it up by
playing games, Annie Over and all that stuff at my grandfather’s place. It was just –you
just made your own—somebody asked me one time, “What did you do for fun down
there?” I said, “We drowned out crickets”. That’s the truth, there were big crickets and
we would fish with them. 2:02
Interviewer: “You eventually were in a house?”
Yes, we lived in a house. It seems like there were a lot of empty—they were really
shacks that we lived in. I can remember during the storm, you know the dust storms; you
would get up some mornings and have a half-inch of dirt on your stove and everything. It
wasn’t an easy time. 2:31
Interviewer: “Who were your neighbors, or were there neighbors around you?”
Oh yeah, they were maybe a quarter of a mile away. This was way out there and the
houses were spread out, but the town of Hess at that time had two grocery stores and two
service stations and things like that and nothing is there now. We live there now. I live
back there now with my niece. 3:00
1
�Interviewer: “When did you start school?”
When? When I was six years old.
Interviewer: “So it was like kindergarten?”
There was no kindergarten then. It was first grade.
Interviewer: “What was the school like?”
It was a big brick building and it went from first grade right through the twelfth grade.
Later on they closed the Hess school and Hess and Elmer, which is another little town
over there, consolidated and during the WPA years, because my dad worked on that
project, we got a new rock school. It was made out of rock. 3:43 That was when I was
in the seventh grade. I went to the Baptist church. That was one of the schools until the
school got finished and then in the eighth grade we had this wonderful school with good
teachers and the towns had consolidated.
Interviewer: “I see. We were talking earlier about recreation. Did you have chores
that you had to do when you were younger?”
Oh gosh yes, I had to go out and try to find kindling to make the old pot belly stove in the
morning. That was my job, to get the kindling so dad could start the fire in the morning.
4:28 Many times at my grandparents’ house—sometimes, you know they all lived sort of
together, we would eat corn and that was it for supper.
Interviewer: “Where did you buy your food?”
We would go by wagon mostly into Altus, which is thirteen miles away and you would
buy your stuff for a year, I don’t mean a year, but a month because that’s a long haul,
that’s a day up there and back in a wagon with two horses pulling. 5:02
Interviewer: “Who owned the horses?”
Oh, my grandpa.
Interviewer: “Your grandpa was actually a little better off than your folks were?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Because you were family, you shared responsibilities and whatnot?”
Oh yes.
Interviewer: “What were some of the earlier games? You mentioned a couple
games, but when did baseball come into your life?”
2
�Oh, my dad played on a, what did they call it back then? A sandlot team and he and my
uncle and all of them played on Sunday afternoon. He was a first baseman and he had
me out throwing balls to him when I was six years old or five years old playing catch
with him. 5:39
Interviewer: “Did you have a glove?”
No, he had a glove, but I didn’t. My uncle Will finally bought me a glove; you know
they were not much bigger than my hand back then. He had a service station, so he
bought me my first ball glove.
Interviewer: “When your father was playing, I assume you went to church on
Sunday morning and then afterwards you had these baseball games?”
Yes, and that was up at the old schoolhouse.
Interviewer: “Where were these teams formed from?”
Just different—like Elmer would have a team and Hess would have a team and Tipton
would have a team and they would play each other. 6:18
Interviewer: “So, this was just basically recreational baseball, it wasn’t pro?”
Yes, families sitting up there in covered wagons and stuff like that.
Interviewer: “There were no benches?”
I don’t remember any. That was a long time ago when I was a kid.
Interviewer: “So, I know this is a long ways back, but what appealed to you about
baseball? What was it, when you were a child watching was it because your father
was playing?”
It was just something that I could do. Just something I could do and I had an uncle Doc
and he had two sons and they loved baseball too, in fact they went to college at OU on
scholarships because of their baseball. 7:01 Then there was Jack Shirley, a good friend
of mine and his dad saw me throwing a ball to somebody one time and then Jack and I
became good friends and we would get together and just play games. I would throw him
grounders and he would throw me grounders and then we would hit—just the two of us.
Interviewer: “Were you at all aware, I realize you were out in a very remote part of
the country, but were you at all aware of major league baseball from newspapers,
radio or anything like that?”
3
�Yea, we always had a radio, it had batteries, but we would run it at certain times. I
remember my dad hauling it out on the porch and plugging it in during the World Series.
7:45 Yes, we got to listen to that.
Interviewer: “So this is a whole group of you would gather around the radio and
listen to it and hear the roar of the crowds?”
Yep,
Interviewer: “Maybe this is where the seeds were planted.
Right.
Interviewer: “You’re tall, six foot one, how quickly did you grow when you were a
child? Did you sprout right up?”
I think so because my mother—people would see her carrying me around sometimes and
they would say, “Why are you carrying that long legged gal around?” I was all legs, and
I was only about six months old. 8:23 My dad was tall, but my mother was tall for a
woman too.
Interviewer: “When you watched your father playing baseball, did you ever think
that maybe you could play someday?”
No, I never did. Later on when I started in high school and I was warming up the catcher
or pitching batting practice for the boys or coaching first base, which I did a lot, I
thought, “I wish there was a girls team”. I’ll put this in, before when I was in the sixth
grade, I was going to school at Elmer, I was out playing with the Fancher boys and
people that I knew and we were just throwing high fly balls and stuff and then Mr. Boyer,
who was the superintendent at that time, he had a girls softball team. 9:25 He would let
me go, I couldn’t play, being in sixth grade, but he would let me go with him to play
other schools. He would put me out there, I don’t know why he did it, but he would bat
fungoes, high ones out there for me to catch. Then the highlight was, we would come
back through Altus on the bus and he would buy us a nickel ice cream cone. 9:58
Interviewer: “You did get through high school right?
Yes.
Interviewer: “Did you play during high school?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “But not on a team per se.”
No. I just played with the boys and warmed up the pitcher and pitched batting practice.
Interviewer: “That’s what I want to get into. There was a boys team for the high
school?”
4
�Oh yes. They were the South Side Red Devils. 10:18
Interviewer: “You’re a girl, how did you get in that position?”
I just did it and they were happy to have me do that. The coaches didn’t mind.
Interviewer: “I assume that a lot of people that were on the team knew you
already?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “You were a tall person and you could throw the ball. I guess what’s
interesting to me—when I was in little league, there is no way we would let a girl,
even on first base or even coach so, you had to have gained the respect of the
students.”
Yes, and the guys who played. 10:54 Ya, they respected me and if they just had a little
pick-up team or something, I would always get chosen.
Interviewer: “So you were playing on boys teams that were not part of the high
school curriculum?”
Yeah, just for fun.
Interviewer: “What did you think you wanted to do after high school?”
I didn’t have any idea. I knew I wanted to do something, but I had no idea. There was no
money for college or anything. I knew that was out of bounds and I didn’t want to do it
anyway. I could have because I was the Salutatorian, but I just didn’t know. 11:33 I
was going to go to the navy to the WAVES, but my mother wouldn’t sign for me and it is
a good thing because I probably would have flunked out or gotten homesick or
something.
Interviewer: “The war began in 1941. Do you remember Pearl Harbor, do you
remember that at all?”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “Tell me about your experience?”
Well, we just heard it on the radio or somebody calling maybe, a few people had
telephones back then, but not too many around Hess had telephones. The old kind that
was on the wall. 12:09
Interviewer: “How old were you?”
Well, I was born in 1927.
5
�Interviewer: “So you were old enough to recognize that this was serious?”
Yes, I know that my two uncles got drafted and went to war.
Interviewer: “I know this was a long time ago, but did you have any grasp—did you
have any idea, you’re from a very small town and this is a world war, did you have
any idea of Germany and Japan, bombings and all this?”
No. I know that papers came through the school and you would have to give reports on
them so therefore, we did get a little bit. We picked it up that way. But I didn’t realize it
like people who had radios and stuff like that. 12:56
Interviewer: “Up to that time, what was the farthest you had traveled?”
Oklahoma City, which was 100 miles away. I had to go there to meet that girls team.
Interviewer: “Let’s back up, I don’t want to jump ahead too far. How did you hear
about this girls team?”
I went down to the grocery store, the lady down there would get the day late paper and I
was reading the sports. 13:28
Interviewer: “Why did you get a day late paper?”
Because that’s the way it went back then. In Oklahoma City you could buy it that day,
but then they had to mail it down. I read in the paper where this girls team was coming to
Oklahoma City to play a charity game against each other and I thought, “Oh brother”,
and then I got a postcard and I wrote it to the editor.
Interviewer: “Where did the postcard come from?”
We must have had a penny postcard. 14:00
Interviewer: “You got a postcard to sent to them?”
Yeah. I got the postcard, a penny postcard, sent it to the guy who had written the article,
and he sent it on to Chicago and it’s a miracle that I even heard about it, much less got to
go. That’s when I went up there and just—
Interviewer: “Wait a minute, there’s a lot more to this story than that, I know that.
Alright, you had the initiative to send a postcard to the guy who wrote the article,
what did you write on there?”
I just wrote, “How do I go about getting information about this league?”
Interviewer: “He just forwarded it on to them?”
Yeah.
6
�Interviewer: “Why did they contact you?” 14:43
Probably because they needed ball players. They needed ball players.
Interviewer: “So, how did you find out that they were asking you to come out? Did
a letter come?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “So, now the letter arrives and you got to be excited about that.”
I am excited.
Interviewer: “You were at home with your parents?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Tell us about getting the letter.” 15:05
I just got the letter, was excited about it and filled it out and sent it back to them. I had
never played on any professional teams or anything, but anyway, I told them I threw
overhand and all that kind of stuff and so they said to go to Rockford, Illinois.
Interviewer: “What did your parents think about this idea?”
They were happy because they know I was unhappy doing nothing. 15:31
Interviewer: “Now, did this team offer money? Were you going to get paid for
this?”
Yeah. You had to go, and if you made the team they reimbursed you your money for
going, and if you made the team you would get sixty or seventy dollars a week. That was
a lot of money and I thought I was rich. 15:54 But, then I got to Chicago—I had to go to
the bank and borrow the money.
Interviewer: “I want to hear about that too—I found that very interesting.”
I went to the bank and Tom Thaggert, he was quite a sports guy and he was a big shot in
the bank, and he loaned me the money to go on.
Interviewer: “So, you actually sat there—you’re a young girl and you sat down
with one of the richest people in town, a banker, and told him that you had this offer
to go?”
He wanted me to go. 16:24 Then, I got to Chicago finally and went on a milk train as I
call it. I was so homesick and it took so long to get to Chicago, at least I thought, and I
turned around and I had enough money to come back home on so, then I had to go out
and pull cotton and make the money to pay Mr. Thaggert back. 16:50
7
�Interviewer: “How much did you earn pulling cotton?”
About fifty cents a hundred pounds. You had a twelve-foot sack around your shoulder
and you would empty it in the wagon and that’s what’s wrong with my back right now.
17:06 You would make maybe twelve fifty a week pulling cotton. That was seasonal,
but you had to do if you wanted a pair of shoes or—many a time I’ve worn a pair of
shoes with—you would cut out a cardboard and put in it.
Interviewer. “How long did it take to pay the bank back?”
Not to long. It wasn’t very much money back then to borrow and thing sere different.
Seventy-five bucks a week was a lot of dough back then.
Interviewer: “When you came back and had to pick all that cotton, what did you
feel like?”
I felt really let down and everything that I shouldn’t—but it was a miracle that I turned
around and came back and here’s why. They were pitching side arm and underhand and I
couldn’t do anything but pitch because I was a slow poke to China when it came to
running and I couldn’t have played any other position. 18:21 So it was a good idea that I
did turn around and come back because in 1948 then they sent me another letter and I got
to Springfield, Illinois and played for the “Springfield Sallies” that year.
Interviewer: “You could only throw overhand. You were not a very good batter or
runner so, in other words, if you went there in 1947 to try out?”
I probably wouldn’t have made the team. I would have been sent home. 18:51
Interviewer: “So, what was different about 1948?”
Well, I just wanted it and we were pitching overhand then and we had a chaperone and
Carson Bigbee was the manager and they just took me under their wing and that’s what
happened and I stayed.
Interviewer: “Well, let’s actually talk about that. You arrived there in Springfield
right?
Yes.
Interviewer: “This is a fairly good size town?”
Springfield, Illinois.
Interviewer: “Yeah, did you go by train or by bus?”
Bus, and in one day we made it from Oklahoma City. 19:34
Interviewer: “Who was there to greet you?”
8
�Nobody, I mean, they had a room for me. I went to the room and I was tired and sleepy
and I fell down and went to sleep on the bed and finally somebody came knocking at the
door and said it was time to go to the park. I went down and went out there and we got
dressed.
Interviewer: “Hold on, so you went down there and previous to this time you had
been playing in back lots and you had been playing in farm team type things. When
you first walk into the stadium, what was that like?”
Well, that was wonderful and then all these people standing around in their short skirts
and everything. They were very friendly and very nice and I was very shy back then, but
I got over that pretty fast. 20:25
Interviewer: “So, the uniform you’re talking about, what did the uniform consist
of?”
Just a thing you pull over your head and it come down here and you wore some kind of
shorts or something underneath it and you had socks that came up and everything like
that.
Interviewer: “Didn’t you have to physically tryout for that team?”
I guess not, I just started pitching because they needed pitchers. The sad part about that
was Springfield did not draw so, halfway through the season we were kind of on the bus
together all the time just finishing out the year and we were called a traveling team.
21:14
Interviewer: “So, you would get on a bus and you would go to another town and
you would play whatever team was there?”
Yes, and stay in the hotel. We lived in hotels.
Interviewer: “What was the early camaraderie like? These are all girls that were
baseball players. You played with boys before and now you’re actually with your
peers. How good were they?”
They were good. Most of them were good and if they weren’t, they weren’t there. That’s
the thrust of it. Some of them went home too, just like they would get hurt and not
return again and so on. 21:48
Interviewer: “You had been on a farm, you mentioned before how you lived mainly
in overalls, didn’t wear shorts or anything like that. What was your reaction to
these short little uniforms?”
9
�Well, I was embarrassed when I first had to go out and pitch in front of them, but you got
used to it because everybody else did too and so, it didn’t bother me after a few times.
22:17
Interviewer: “Your first few games, how did you feel about being out there actually
in a uniform, in a stadium, that’s a big jump?”
Kind of scary. Scary, and all I knew, I hadn’t had any training you know and
everything—this was in 1948. No training and I just threw the ball jut threw it and I
could throw it hard. 22:41
Somebody asked me once what my best pitch was and I said “high and tight”, but
anyway in the winter of 1949, we went on this Central South America tour and they
asked me to go and I accepted and that was another scary thing, getting on another train
somewhere in Texas and we went to New Orleans and then ended up in Guatemala
meeting a bunch of kids from Miami, a whole plane load from Miami. 23:21 Then we
all got together and they called them the “Cubanas” and the “Americanas”. I remember
pitching in the Panama Canal [Zone] and we stayed in a barracks there.
Interviewer: “Military barracks?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “What was your reaction to coming to a foreign country?”
Scary, everything was scary, but you know, the kids were so nice that they just took you
right in and so, there were three or four girls that were going to play and Johnny
Rawlings was our manager and he was an ex-baseball player, Johnny Rawlings, so was
Carson Biggby, they were all ex-players in the big leagues. He taught me more about
pitching than anybody else ever had. 24:32 I had gotten allocated to his team so
therefore, his kids that were playing for him took me in and everything worked out just
fine.
Interviewer: “These were women from all different teams and this was formed to
play in a foreign country?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So, it wasn’t the “Peaches’ or it wasn’t—it was almost like an all star
team?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So, he took the time to teach you how to pitch better, is that right?
So you were basically just throwing the ball across the plate?”
Yes, trying to.
Interviewer: “What did he teach you?”
10
�Well, when you got two strikes on them, waste a pitch or two, and things like that. I
never could throw a curve ball though, never, but my pitches would go in and dance in
like that and I don’t know what they call those now days, but they got a name now days.
25:29
Interviewer: “Did you feel like you were getting better as a pitcher because of
that?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Your confidence rose. What about your batting?”
Oh, they always called on me to bunt mostly. Move them along.
Interviewer: “That’s exactly what they did with me.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “You have long legs, you must have been a good runner?”
Heck no, heck no, one time I did get a hold of a ball and it hit out to the fence there in
Grand Haven and I was running around the bases and another time the accountant for our
league had his little boy there at a game in Grand Rapids here, and he looked at his daddy
and he said, “Why don’t she run daddy?” In the paper the next day it said, “Here she was
being staggered into third”. I was strictly a pitcher and that was it. 26:21
Interviewer: “Your experience in South America, did you have a chance to get out
to the city and look around?”
Oh yeah, poor countries, Managua, Nicaragua, and the Panama Canal and Guatemala and
all those.
Interviewer: “Now you say poor, but you were poor?”
Yeah, I mean, but their meat hung out on the street and you know, all that kind of stuff,
but it was a very good experience. We were invited to General Somoza’s big palace and
all that kind of stuff. 26:56
Interviewer: “Was there a lot of newspaper coverage? Were there newspaper
people around?”
Yes, I know, one time before I started playing, they went to Cuba for spring training and
they were very, very well received there.
Interviewer: “This is pre-Castro of course.”
Yes.
11
�Interviewer: “You mentioned that the original team you played with, they were not
drawing the audiences, so you were playing out on these traveling tours and then
you got the opportunity to go to South America, when that ended then where did
you go?”
I just came back home and went to spring training. 27:41
Interviewer: “Spring training for what?”
The Grand Rapids Chicks.
Interviewer: “Ah, you didn’t give us all that information. I know what the story is,
but you need to say it. So, John was impressed with you and he was in charge of?”
The Grand Rapids Chicks and the players that he had, if he wanted to trade them off or
whatever.
Interviewer: “So, with his experience with you in South America, he decided he
wanted you to be on his team?
”
Well, I was allocated there, but he could have passed up on me, or whatever he wanted to
do, but going to Central South America was a good thing for me because of meeting him
and some of the players. 28:15
Interviewer: “What were your thoughts about going to Grand Rapids, Michigan?”
I guess I liked it. I stayed and I made a lot of friends and a lot of friends that aren’t
baseball players too.
Interviewer: “Let’s talk about—you’re back—you did go home after the South
America trip, to Oklahoma?”
Yes, and then back into West Baden, Indiana, that’s where we were having spring
training and from there back to Grand Rapids and I got assigned a room mate, with
another pitcher. 28:50
Interviewer: “I want to get into more detail about this. Did you have contracts?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So, you had a contract that specified that you would be playing for a
certain period of time and these are your responsibilities. Was it any different in
terms of what you had to do when you were the “Chicks” as opposed to the team
you were with before? Did the “Chicks” have a better facility? Did they have better
equipment?”
12
�No, but we had rules, strict rules that we had to abide by. We had to wear skirts all the
time and we couldn’t be seen in public in shorts or anything like that and always act like
a lady. Like somebody said, they wanted us to play like men, but act like ladies.
Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier about a chaperone and I wonder if you
could explain in detail what was the chaperone for your team?”
Well, our chaperone was Dotty Hunter and she was wonderful. She didn’t really have
any trouble with her kids. After a game you would get two hours or something and you
had to be back in your room so, most of us respected her and we were back in our room,
but a lot of chaperones would do bed checks, but she never did, but a lot of them did and
that was their job to do because we weren’t supposed to be up carousing around. 30:20
Interviewer: “So, chaperones were officially part of the team and their
responsibilities included, making sure that you followed all the rules?”
All the rules and if you skinned your knee she put methyalate on it and stuff, which they
did, they had strawberries, the gals that would slide into base would get strawberries and
that was awful.
Interviewer: “You didn’t have to do that too often.”
No, I didn’t slide. I didn’t get to slide.
Interviewer: “Did you have to go through the charm school?”
No, that was only the first year. They had quit that by the time I came in. That was in
1943. 31:00
Interviewer: “Where did you stay in Grand Rapids?”
I stayed on Delaware Street. The chaperone would go around and talk to people and two
people would stay in one room and roomed with another pitcher and we could walk down
to the ballpark from Delaware Street. 31:26
Interviewer: “So, you were in people’s homes. You would rent out a room in a
home, somebody’s home, and you would share that room with a roommate?”
Yes, with another gal.
Interviewer: “What was your schedule like during the actual season?”
We usually played double headers on Sunday and you were lucky if you ever go a day
off. We did once in a while, or a rainout or something like that. 31:50
Interviewer: “You would get up in the morning?”
13
�Sometimes we would have to go to practice in the morning about 10:00 AM and then be
back there at 4:00 PM to get ready for the game.
Interviewer: “What did you do in the meantime? I mean, you went to practice and
then you would?”
Oh, we would eat lunch and just whatever. Some of them played golf, but I didn’t.
32:18
Interviewer: “You were making pretty good money, were you saving it or sending it
back home?”
Well, I would go up to Smitter’s store in The Heights and buy my three brothers some
short sleeve shirts and send them home to them and things like that because I knew how
desperate they were.
Interviewer: “So, you were in a sense making more than your parents were making
or your brothers were making?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “That must have made you feel pretty good?”
Well, in a way, but like one gal said one time, my dad was making thirty-five dollars a
week working for the telephone company and I was making three times that much. That’s
the way it was back then. 33:02
Interviewer: “What were your first experiences with the “Grand Rapids Chicks”
and did you feel like you were welcomed in by the—you’re a rookie right? How
were your first experiences with them?”
Fine, no problem at all, I just took my turn and we had five pitchers. I just took my turn.
Interviewer: “Being six foot one, I don’t think too many people would mess with
you anyway.”
I went to school with—I went to high school with my—she’s more like a sister to me and
she would be my grandfather’s kid, and the boys would pick on her and I would have to
whop them around once in a while. They were picking on her because she couldn’t take
care of herself. 34:00
Interviewer: “You said there were five pitchers on the “Grand Rapids Chicks”.”
Yes, or at least four. At least four.
Interviewer: “So, in a given week, how many games were you playing?”
Probably seven.
14
�Interviewer: “Seven games over the course of a week and some of those are double
headers so, you got Sunday off?”
No, Sunday was a double header. It wasn’t easy, but it was a good life—riding the bus,
you know when you ride a bus you get to—everybody gets along. 34:38 Sometimes
they pull jokes on you and all that, but you didn’t care about that.
Interviewer: “This is the team players on the bus?”
Yeah, they would play canasta and gin rummy and all that stuff, or singing and we had
good times. 34:54
Interviewer: “What was your first experience playing as a pitcher after you had
this training from Rawlings, did you notice a difference in the way you were
pitching?”
Yeah, but sometimes I would go wild as a goose and that would make him so mad. One
time he came out to me and he said, “Beans, if you can’t get the ball over, bounce the
damn thing in”. So, that’s the way it was. 35:30
Interviewer: “With four to five pitchers, though, how often would you actually be
able to pitch? Were you first string?”
Yeah, and then sometimes the next pitcher, if I got wild or something, they would put
them in. They didn’t have regular-- like they do now, you pitch six innings and a reliever
comes in, we didn’t have that. I pitched a twenty-one-inning game and a twenty-twoinning game and did it all so, that’s why I get a little upset with these primadonnas as I
call them. Give them one like that and they’d charge the mound, you know. 36:06
Interviewer: “You had several quite remarkable experiences playing in the
“Chicks”, but you started in 1948, 49, 1950. This was your regular job now right?
Uh huh.
Interviewer: “What was—the season itself lasted how long?”
I forgot, but it was in May and all the way to September and then you had the playoffs.
Interviewer: “What happened during the lull period?”
You mean after the season was over?
Interviewer: “Yes.”
Well, I used to go home, but then there was a Mr. Jordan, who was a—he had a Buick
place on South Division here and he just made a job for me in the wintertime. I started
doing that in 1952 I think it was or 1951. 37:06
15
�Interviewer: “What kind of a job was that?”
Oh, answering the phone or running around here, just gave me job and I made twentyseven or thirty dollars a week to tide you over until the season started again.
Interviewer: “Why didn’t you go back home?”
There was nothing to do, nothing to do.
Interviewer: “No work?”
No work, no nothing, I sure wasn’t going to go back to pulling cotton.
Interviewer: “What would you say was your highlight season?”
Probably when we were playing for the trophy against the “Kalamazoo Lassies” in
Kalamazoo. 37:47
Interviewer: “What year was this?”
1952 [actually 1953]. It was a cold night, the bases were loaded and the manager,
Woody English, had gotten kicked out of the game.
Interviewer: “How come?”
I don’t know, I said, “It’s because he got too cold”, but he had his long pants on out there,
and so they made it a seven inning game because of the weather and it was the last game
and the bases were loaded and Sammy Samms came to the bat and I struck her out and
we won the game so, that was my highlight of my whole deal. 38:30
Interviewer: “Sammy Samms was, I understand, a very good hitter and player?”
Yes, a very good player and a good hitter. She could pitch and she could play outfield
because of her hitting.
Interviewer: “So, when she came to bat with three people on?”
Marilyn Jenkins was my catcher and you’re going to interview her next week, she just
walked out to the mound and said—first before that, “Ziggy”, Alma Ziegler was the
captain of out team and she was the coach after he got kicked out. So, with the bases
loaded she walked up to me and looking up, she was little, she said, “Can you get her out
“Beans”? I shrugged my shoulders and she left me in, but I got her out anyway and that
was a good deal. 39:15 She was a wonderful person and she’s now deceased, Alma
Ziegler. She could pitch and play second base both.
16
�Interviewer: “The Grand Rapids Chicks was actually a very successful team. What
do you attribute to the success of the “Chicks” compared to some of the other teams
that didn’t do so well?”
Well, they tried to keep all the teams equal and they would trade someone off to make it
more better, but most of the time, thank goodness I never got traded off and I guess it was
because I was a pitcher and they were in demand. They busted up the team once and
Tiny Petry, who was a shortstop, and she was wonderful with “Ziggy” playing second
and then the team kind of went down a little bit then you know, but we won a lot of
games. 40:14
Interviewer: “You got to know these women quite well right? Where did they come
from?”
The come from California, they came from Canada, they came from Kansas, Florida, all
over.
Interviewer: “This was a nationwide search for ball players and then a lot of them
ended up in Grand Rapids, Michigan because it was a team.”
A lot of them stayed on here and a lot of them are deceased that played on our team for a
long time so, I feel lucky to be alive right now. 40:51
Interviewer: “1952, you had a wonderful year, how was 1953? How were the
crowds etc?”
Well, it had fallen off a little bit, but then it had started gaining back and even in 1954 we
were gaining back, but South Bend and some of the other teams weren’t drawing at all so,
the men just got together and decided that was the end of it. Like that—we heard about
it. 41:26
Interviewer: “What kind of crowds were you getting here in Grand Rapids at the
height of it all?”
Well, there would be a thousand people; there are pictures of the people in the stands. I
think it’s down at the library. They drew really well when I first came here.
Interviewer: “How were the crowds? Were they enthusiastic? You see major
league baseball and you see fans screaming and yelling.”
Oh, ya, cheering and carrying on. We got to playing later and later and there was this
writer, what was his name? I can’t remember, but he had a little article, a thing in the
paper, and he said, “Chicks were getting sleepy”, because they were keeping then up to
late at night. 42:15
17
�Interviewer: “Early on and this was in the movie and the movie was not that
accurate, but it had some good points to it and it was a wonderful film, but
especially early on, were you harassed at all by people, being women out there?”
What the movie showed in the beginning they were, but not when I came in 1948. That
had all calmed down because they knew that we could play the game and play it right.
42:50
Interviewer: “Did you ever get a chance to play—I think this happened on
occasion, but play exhibition games with the men’s teams?”
No, not to my knowledge, one time we might have, after the season was over, played a
game with the Sullivan’s or something once. Not very often.
Interviewer: “1953, you said things were going fairly well still, were there any
indications that this might come to an end?”
Well, I think there was, but I didn’t know it and most of the players didn’t know it. We
figured, like they said, we owed Grand Rapids, owed the cleaning people that cleaned our
uniforms money and I guess in the end we might have been getting paid in cash rather
than by check. Things were getting tight because TV came in and the war was over and
there wasn’t any gas rationing. 43:54
Interviewer: “Now, there was a real financial tragedy that happened in the 1950’s
where the equipment and everything was burned up.”
That was at Bigelow Field. I still say that guy who owned us then, more or less, Jim
whatever his name was, I still say that he probably had somebody set that building on fire
and the reason I say that is because of the fact that he immediately built a motel out there
and that was hard on us because we had to get a different uniform and that wasn’t hard to
do because it was back down to six teams and they had extra uniforms and stuff, but your
glove, everything was gone. 44:54
Interviewer: “Now, you say that you got uniforms from other teams, but you’re six
feet one.”
Well ya.
Interviewer: “How did you get a uniform to fit you? Did they actually have tailors
come out?”
Well no, we could get them hemmed or whatever they needed to be.
Interviewer: “In the past, when you were with the “Grand Rapids Chicks”, you had
your own uniforms and it was all color coded right? The hat, what about these new
uniforms?”
18
�Well, in the end, I think we had the “Peoria Redwings” uniforms and we wore red then
with white, whereas in the beginning we wore blue--- gray and then the blue sox and cap.
45:40
Interviewer: “You said there were indications that something might end, but you
didn’t know and most of the players didn’t know?”
We were hoping it wouldn’t, yes.
Interviewer: “In your case, did you actually think that this was going to go on for a
career?”
I think a lot of us did, yes. We were very disappointed. Especially the ones that came in
late like I did.
Interviewer: “How did you officially find out that the league was ending?”
I think it came out in the paper, but I’m not sure.
Interviewer: “Do you recall at all what your reaction was?”
I thought, “Oh well, I have to start thinking about doing something else?” Like I told
them out there before you got there, that I’d gotten hit on the elbow and had to go get an
x-ray and I thought hmm, that might be a good thing for me to get into, and so, Dr.
Blackburn was our doctor. and he said, “Oh yes, they have programs at the hospital and
we’ll get you in”, and that’s what I did then. I got to be an x-ray technician and I did that
from 1955 to 1969 and then I decided to work for orthopedic doctors and was the
manager of the office and took casts off and all that stuff and I worked with them until I
retired in 1991. 47:13
Interviewer: “When you were an x-ray technician, were people aware that you
were in the baseball league?”
Some were and some weren’t.
Interviewer: “I’m talking about the early days, I’m not talking about now because
now people know who you are, but in those days?”
Just the one’s who had attended, if they would come in and then they would say who we
were. We got a little publicity because Marilyn got into x-ray too after me and another
gal, Betty Wanless, and somehow I ran across a picture the other day where the three of
us were in our white uniforms. We got a little publicity back then even, but we didn’t get
a lot until we had our first reunion in 1982 and then-- 47:57
Interviewer: “How was that organized?”
19
�A bat girl from South Bend and then June Peppas had a printing shop and she was a
player for Kalamazoo and she got the idea of sending me a letter and do you know the
address of somebody else? And that’s the way it went and then they got it going. There
were a few people there, historians who came to that, and three years later we had another
one and so on and so forth and we’re still having them.
Interviewer: “Now in the movie it’s very moving when Geena Davis comes to the
reunion, and of course her sister is there with a family and all that. Was it sort of
like that?”
Yes, sort of like that the first time you see them and you have to look sometimes at there
tag to see who they were, ya. 48:51
Interviewer: “There were a few people from Grand Rapids that went, right?
Marilyn went and did Rosemary go?”
I don’t remember if she went, but I bet she did.
Interviewer: “I just wondered if the “Grand Rapids Chicks” gathered together and
the “Peaches” gathered together?”
We probably did after we got there. Dolly Konwinski went and all of them went, but we
didn’t stick together, we mixed and mingled with other people. 49:24
Interviewer: “That must have been an amazing experience, I’ve been to several
reunions of the Flying Tigers and I’ve been to reunions of other WWII groups and
it’s a magical moment to be standing there and just hearing these conversations.
“Do you remember when this happened?”
Yes, and as the years go by everything gets a little more, you know what it is—the stories
get bigger, yes the stories get bigger as you have these reunions. You daydream back and
then you think about so and so who’s not there because she’s deceased and we say she’s,
“gone to the dream team in the sky, the ball team in the sky”. It was a wonderful
experience for me and made me and made my life. 50:08
Interviewer: “I just want you to comment on the movie. The thing that impressed
me about it, I’m not looking at it as a historian at all because you heard from
Gordon Olson and others that it was a Hollywood movie, but it seemed to capture
the spirit, the excitement and of course the characters were just wonderful, what did
you think of the movie?”
Well, I thought it was about 89% correct. They made the chaperones look like they were
simpletons, I thought. They were all very educated and wonderful ladies and that was
one thing I didn’t like and of course the manager never came into our space. If he had
anything to say he would talk to the chaperone and she would relate it to us. So they
Hollywooded it up a little, which is all right and it put us on the map anyway. 51:15
20
�Interviewer: “Yes, that is what I was going to say, it certainly drew attention to
what you had done and made much more interest in what you had done.”
Like Penny Marshall said, she thought it was a story that should be told because—
another highlight I had was when we went to Evansville to see them film and after it was
over, she said, “Come down here, we want to play”, and I went down and pitched to her
and after working hard all day, she wanted to have a little fun and that was kind of nice.
51:47
Interviewer: “When did you see the movie? Did you just walk into a movie theater
or did they have a special screening for you?”
They had something at the Star Theater here and the fact is, somebody made me a collage
and I gave it to the library here about it and we signed autographs and everything before
the movie even started up at the Star Theater. 52:16
Interviewer: “Did you go to the public museum when they had their exhibit?”
Oh yes, and we signed autographs and everything there too. That was really quite an
exhibit, really, that will never happen again.
Interviewer: “I got to Grand Rapids just when that was ending, but a friend of
mine had a video camera and a crew and they actually videotaped the entire inside
and they interviewed a couple of people. I didn’t see you, you didn’t get interviewed
while you were there did you?”
I got a story written about me and they took pictures and I forgot, it was one of those—
she asked me, the gal that doesn’t work there anymore asked me if I—she said they might
not get it, they wanted, but they did and there was this booklet that came out, ya. I had to
come and I know about this a little bit because they had to take pictures you know to put
a picture in the magazine. I imagine they got one down at the library. 53:25
Interviewer: “We had students from the history department actually do all the
research and we know where all the pictures are and where everything is. At some
point I will have to go down there and take a look. I want you to make some
comments now in general. The beginning of the war, after Pearl Harbor, the United
States was not in a very good position, not just us, but the British and we were losing
all over, the Japanese were taking over Asia and Germany was taking over Europe
and as the story goes, Wrigley was concerned that perhaps major league baseball
would be affected by this so, he wanted to set up this alternative, this women’s team.
54:12 I guess the question I have for you and I want you to think a little bit outside,
did you and your players, did you have any sense or a feeling that you were a part of
the war effort? Because you know “Rosie the Riveter”, you hear about that and of
course we know about the WACS and the WAVES and it is my opinion that you did
a lot, what was your perspective?”
21
�Well, we feel that helped women get to play more sports etc. by us doing that because
when I first came to Grand Rapids and stayed in the wintertime, I said, “What do the girls
get to do in high school and around”? Well, they didn’t get to do anything and I feel now
that softball is so great now, that we were stepping stones for the younger generation.
People ask, “Do you think there will ever be another team like this”? I say, “No, it would
be too much money and also, I don’t think the gals of today would follow those rules and
regulations because they are too independent now. We feel like we made our mark in
that respect. 55:35
Interviewer: “Looking back on that experience, you had a successful career
afterwards, you were a professional and made a living for yourself and helped your
family out, how do you look back on that magic period of time and the effect it had
on your life?”
Well, all I just say is that it made my life and if I could do it anybody else could do it.
Interviewer: “One other final question, how do you think it affected you as a
person, how do you think it affected you as the person you are today? More
independent perhaps?”
Integrity, I get very emotional. 56:44
Interviewer: “This will be our last question. Your doing fine, your doing
wonderful.”
That’s why I can’t go and do speeches like a lot of them do because I get too emotional.
Interviewer: “We can stop now, we can stop now and thank you very much this has
been wonderful, wonderful.” 57:00
22
�23
�
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
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The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_ERisinger
Title
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Risinger, Earlene "Beans" (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Risinger, Earlene
Description
An account of the resource
Earlene "Beans" Risinger was born in Hess, Oklahoma, in 1927. She grew up on a farm in Dust Bowl country, and played baseball from a young age with family and friends, and practiced with boys' teams in her community. She saw a newspaper article about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, and joined the Grand Rapids Chicks in 1948. She went with the League to Spring Training in Cuba in 1948, and then on a postseason trip to Central America. She was a talented pitcher, and pitched the final game when the Chicks won the League championship in 1953, and played until the League folded after the 1954 season.
Contributor
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-26
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87d150df23d71e970e32f6030510fc96.m4v
802089bdaa466bc342b6de51a77b992d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a99fe20f27f3ae797fc06c1ea9a723c5.pdf
e6a8ae81ecf1ed27f463e1803d7458bc
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Dolly Nemic Konwinski
Length of Interview: (01:23:44)
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like? Where did you grow up?
What was your neighborhood like and your family?”
It was a typical, typical working class neighborhood. The neighborhood consisted of
Bohemians and Polish and Jewish and it was the most wonderful—growing up in this
neighborhood was exceptionally fun as I can remember and to go to school with this
group and to grow up with, I should say, the boys because that was my main team mates.
We went to grammar school together, to kindergarten and elementary and high school.
Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living?”
Well, in the depression he was with the WPA, I forget what that stands for.
Interviewer: “It was Roosevelt’s way of getting people to work.”
Right, my mother was a stay at home mother of course—back then all moms stayed home
and cooked, washed, etc. My dad played softball with a neighborhood group and in
Chicago, I guess you get the picture—in the neighborhood where there’s a tavern on
every other corner. Well, my dad would stop and have a little refreshment on his way
home and that’s the group he played horseshoes with and played softball with and not
having a boy, I was the tag along. (02:20) I wouldn’t let my dad out of the house, even
if he was going to the corner store for some “Halva”, which is a Jewish candy by the way.
I would sit by the door so, he had to take me to the softball games, which I was a “gofer”
and some of the men, if they were true ball players, they chased their own shag balls, but
since I was there, I was the “gofer”, to go for the ball. They would say, “Dolly get this”
and of course they couldn’t have picked a better person than me because I wanted this
badly. I wanted to be on the ball field since I can remember.
Interviewer: “Why? What was your motivation? I know your back to your early
childhood, but what was it about baseball that appealed to you as a young kid?”
(03:15) You know, that’s really a hard question, but my love for my father, I wanted to
be just like him and I would do things just like my dad and I just took to the sport. I
didn’t like dolls—I have a sister and she had the most beautiful dolls in the neighborhood
and I don’t know where they got the money to buy these, maybe they went down to the
relief station and picked them up, but she had these beautiful dolls and I had the best bat
and ball in the neighborhood. (03:56) Of course doing that, the boys all loved me too,
but I was good—I was good when I was a kid.
Interviewer: “How old were you when you actually started playing baseball?”
1
�I was probably seven or eight.
Interviewer: “Whom did you play with?”
I played with the boys in the neighborhood.
Interviewer: “Where?”
Well, if you can close your eyes and picture a neighborhood in Chicago and you will find
that the streets were narrow and they held a car, if you were lucky enough to have one
parked there. We use to play softball there and we used the manhole cover and the drains
as first and the manhole cover as second and so on, and then we took chalk and drew
home plate in the street. (04:53) When we started, we wanted to play baseball and
Kuppenheimer Clothes had a factory just a half a block away and in back of the factory
was a field, a large field and that’s where me and the boys went to play ball.
Interviewer: “Were you the only girl?”
I was the only girl.
Interviewer: “Did other kids come out to watch you play?” (05:22)
No, they played. I remember that movie “Sand lot” and I loved that movie because it’s
what I did when I was a kid. We went out there and we played “round robin”, you hit,
you fielded, you pitched, you were a Cub fan or a Sox fan and you took their names, you
took Stan Hack, you took Andy Pafko, but I was a Sox fan and I was in love with Luke
Appling so, I played short stop and I always told—you call me Luke—I wanta be Luke
Appling, I want to play professional baseball just like Luke Appling and not realizing
what was going to happen in the distant future. (06:13)
Interviewer: “That was fantasy because you couldn’t play even if you—we know
what actually happened later, but as a child at that time playing--fantasizing about
playing professional baseball, there were no women in baseball at that time”.
You know the old saying “Girls can’t play baseball”, well I did and I was a good player.
I wasn’t the best, I wasn’t a home run hitter, but I always was picked first if I wasn’t the
captain. Maybe it was because of that bat and ball I had and the boys liked it. I
remember the bat. We played with cracked, cracked at the handle and couldn’t afford to
go out and get a new bat—didn’t have aluminum bats way back then so, my dad took his
manual screw driver and he put a hole through there and put in a screw and then he taped
it up. (07:19)
He didn’t use the shiny black tape we have today, he used the tape that would get your
hands black, but he taped that bat up and it was as good as new and back to the ball
fields. (07:34)
2
�Of course, we only played now in the summer—wintertime, there was time for skating
and tobogganing and sledding. I think every kid in Chicago had a sled—so our summers
were—and then I had a paper route. I had a Sun Times paper route. The first girl to have
a paper route—a large one too. My sister would help me—please El, please El, I got a
ball game, can you help me deliver these papers? I have to do homework and then I
would have to run out—“They need me, they need me, my sister would say “Ok, ok”, she
is two years younger so—you know when you’re eight and nine and eight and seven. I
would say “Please El?”(08:25)
It was the same with doing dishes when we were young. That was out job—we had to
do the dishes, “Oh mama do I have to do the dishes?” “You have to do the dishes”.
Well, I finally caught on and I would say to my sister, “Will you wipe tonight?” One
night we would wash and one night we would do the wiping, but the dishwasher always
got finished first so, I would say, “El, El, let me wash dishes tonight”, and she would say,
“Well, you washed last night”, and I would say, “I want to get out of here, please, please,
I got a ball game”, because the boys would be sitting on the fence waiting for me. 9:01
“Oh Dolly, oh Dolly, when you were a kid back then that’s what they would yell. Then
when it would come to the pots and pans, I would say, “Oh mama, oh mama, can you do
this pot? It’s really hard and the boys are waiting”. I had a wonderful childhood. I had a
wonderful—when my dad got home from work—we played with a sixteen inch softball
in Chicago and if you hit it enough times it gets like mooch. We were—you know, a
small hand could squeeze it and the ball, when it was hit it would just kind of tumble
around. (09:46)
“Daddy, daddy, I need a new ball”. We had enough money for food, we were never
without food on our table and there he would come home under his arm, with his lunch
basket, would be a ball. Now, I don’t know where he got that ball—we’ll just leave it at
that. (10:12)
Interviewer: “You got through high school and graduated from high school?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Ok, when did you first hear about the opportunity to play baseball?”
One morning after church, my dad stopped at the bakery and we always had bagels and
Kaiser rolls, he stopped at the Jewish market and they were the best in the whole world. I
wish I could go back there today and pick up a dozen. He came home and after coffee he
was reading the paper and he said to me, “Dolly”, he said, “did you know that girls play
baseball?” I said, “Girls don’t play baseball”, he said, “There’s an All American girls
baseball league that’s having tryouts and it’s going to be right in the neighborhood at one
our park districts”. (11:18)
That’s where I played a lot of my sports, at the park—volleyball and whatever girls
played over there, whatever they would let us play. He said, “It’s going to be right down
the street and I want you to go”, and I said, “Oh dad, I’m not”—he said, “You’re a good
ball player Dolly, I want you to go.” Well, the glove I had was—if you go down to the
hall of fame one day, you’ll see the kind of gloves we had. It was probably from the five
3
�and ten cent store, but I had this glove and he said, “I want you to go down there”. “Ok,
I’ll go down”. (12:03)
I never saw so many girls with baseball gloves in my life.
Interviewer: “Now this is a field you had already played in so, you knew where it
was?”
Right down the street.
Interviewer: “Right down the street”.
In the park district.
Interviewer: “What I’m really impressed with is your father really encouraged you
to do this”. (12:22)
He did, and of course my mother, you know, my mother didn’t really know first from
short, but let me tell you one story. One day I said to my mother, “Mom, does it take
longer to get from first to second or second to third?” and she said to me, “Now Dolly,
that was just the most stupid thing you could ask me”, I was laid back and I said, “Well,
what do you mean?” and she said, “Well, it takes longer to get from second to third”, and
I laughed, “What do you mean mom?” She said, “Well, there’s a short stop in-between”.
13:10 I love to tell this story and I love to tell it in front of her because I don’t know
where she got that information, maybe my father whispered it in her ear, but mama didn’t
know too much about sports.
Interviewer: “What did she think about this idea of you going to try out for this
baseball thing?”
Like I say, she didn’t—she knew I went out to play ball so, it was just another going out
in the afternoon and having fun with the boys, but my father had told me “it’s girls
baseball”. When I got there--Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about the trip over, what were you thinking about
while you were walking over?” (13:56)
Walking is right, I was fifteen—walking over there and thinking to myself, “You know,
will I be able to catch the ball? Are they going to throw really hard to me? Are there
going to be ladies there throwing? What is this all about?” (14:21)
It was about—I would say about three blocks from the house, maybe four and you know
you skip down there and you think and you smile—baseball, baseball, organized. Well,
when I got there to that gym, I had to sign in and there were a lot of men and there were a
lot of women, young girls, in fact, we weren’t women yet, we were fifteen and sixteen
years old. (14:52)
I walked in there and my eyes must have been almost popping out of my head. I could
not believe what I was seeing. Well, you know, grab a friend and here’s a ball and start
4
�throwing and the ball was—I believe the ball was eleven inches. It had come down from
the twelve inch that the league started with and so, we started playing catch and my name
is Dolly—well’ my name is Mary Lou and my name is Ginger and where do you live?
(15:29)
Well, I live way on the south side and what school do you go to? I go to Tillman, and I
went to Farragut, the conversation was just fun and women throwing hard to me, I did not
have to look for a boy to throw the ball to me like I’m use to catching. It went on, we
played catch and of course it was in a gym and so the men, who were coaches, started
hitting ground balls to us, we were in line and we each took our turn fielding the ball and
throwing the ball and we couldn’t hit, but we could slide—slide on a gym floor? Ouch.
(16:18)
It wasn’t strawberries, it was floor burns.
Interviewer: “What were you wearing?”
I was probably wearing a pair of pants and to this day, and I just bought them last year, I
never owned a pair of jeans. It was always a pair of girl’s slacks, some kind of a shirt, I
don’t remember.
Interviewer: “I was just trying to think. It wasn’t a uniform or anything?”
No, I was what everybody had. They had their jeans on and tennis shoes. I don’t know if
I had tennis shoes or if we could afford tennis shoes.
Interviewer: “What year was this?” (17:01)
This was in 1947.
Interviewer: “Ok, so the war was already over with?”
Right, what they were trying to do is get four teams in Chicago, like a farm system,
which the All Americans never had. They were trying to form the farm system with the
local gals and then we lined up and they told us a little bit about the league and what they
were trying to do—get four teams—there would be two south side teams, two north end
teams, and we would play each other. (17:41)
I must have impressed the coaches because they called my name and they came up to me
and they said, “Does your parents know about this?” I said, “Yes, my dad sent me down
here”, and they said, “Dolly, you’re a good ball player”, no Joe DiMaggio, no Luke
Appling, and I said, “Thank you”, and he said, “Would you be interested in playing on
one of the Chicago teams?” I said, “Oh, yes”. Well, they had some literature, some notes
that I had to take home and show my mom and dad. (18:31)
Interviewer: “Did you have a job at this time?”
5
�Just my paper route, just my paper route, and boy when I would get those penny and
nickel tips—you know when you’re nine years old or ten years old, and I had that job
right into high school.
Interviewer: “What were your options? You had a fairly decent relationship with
your father and with your mother, what did you talk about? Obviously professional
baseball was not in the discussions about what you were going to do with your life
before this happened”. (19:03)
Right, right, it—well, I ran home, I mean I ran, I sprinted, I could have beat Owens that
day. I ran upstairs and I said, “Oh daddy, daddy, daddy”, and he said, “What happened,
what happened?” I said, “Daddy, they want me to play, they want me to play”, and he
said, “I knew, I knew it” so, I said, “Mama, can I play ball? Can I play ball?” “Ask your
father, ask your father”, and I said, “Daddy said yes, daddy said yes” so, I brought the
details home and made these friends, Mary Lou Studnicka you know, Ann O’Dowd, we
were picked for the Southside team (19:56) and my other friends, Ginger and Champ
and some of the gals on the North side, Joan Sindelar, they made the North side team and
so, we were going to be playing against each other. (20:11)
Interviewer: “Now, you were getting paid, right?”
Well, no pay, we got our streetcar fare and I think we got fifty cents and that would have
been a lot of money because streetcar fare was a nickel and that would have been ten
cents round trip and that would leave us fifteen cents for a hamburger and a malt. (20:40)
That was the extent of it, just get on—maybe it was a little less, but fifty cents sticks in—
and that was so much money when I think of those nickel tips. We were paid that and I
was still active in the park districts and we were playing volleyball and we had a good
volleyball team. I love that sport to this day. As a kid I loved to go out there and watch
and my grand kids play, but we were playing in the park district tournament and we were
playing for the championship and we won, we won. (21:35)
We were just so happy, so happy and before they gave the medals out, that’s what you
could win, a nice medal, I was called in the office and the lady who was in charge, the
director of this, she said to me, “Dolly, do you play baseball?” And I said, “Oh ya, I do
play”, and she said, “Do you get paid?” I said, “No, I get money for the streetcar to go
there”< and she said, “Well, we heard you got paid and we have to disqualify your team”,
and I said, “You mean we don’t win? Does that mean we don’t win?” She said, “That
means you don’t win”. (22:27)
Well, our coach, I’ll tell ya, I can feel the pain right now—how could they do this to me
for streetcar fare? So, that’s another thing you know, when you’re fourteen or fifteen and
that—it just—so, I quit playing volleyball and I just played in adult leagues when I got
older. I said, “I’ll show them, just don’t call me grandma” but, I played since and then I
stuck to my baseball—still going to school—still in high school now, not being able to
play sports—the only thing girls could do in high school—we had a swimming team, but
they couldn’t be on the swimming team, but they could be divers. (23:28)
We played, of course we played basketball and taking you back a long time ago, we
played half court and six on a team and of course we played volleyball so, I got my thrill
6
�of playing volleyball in high school, loved it, had more fun and played ball with the boys,
I could practice, they wanted me out there to practice so bad, but when they had a game it
was “See you tomorrow Dolly”. (24:04)
Interviewer: “So, what were your options when you got out of high school? What
were you going work as? Were you going to try to get a job as a nurse or what?”
No, this is the most fun, playing with the boys in the field. I played with a young boy, his
name is Joe Schoenberg, how that stick out in my mind I don’t know, but we had a
Mages Sporting Goods store, Morey Mages and his brothers, I don’t remember his
brothers, names, but Joe lived in the apartment building on the first level and Morey
Mages lived above him. (24:48)
We would talk and he said, “Oh Morey, he owns the sporting goods store” and I don’t
know what made me do this, one day after we played ball he said, “Oh, Morey always
gets home about five thirty from the store” so, the wheels are turning in Dolly’s head so, I
went to the corner where Joe and Mr. Mages lived, and he came by one day and I said,
“Mr. Mages?” and he said, “Hello, how are ya?” I said, “Fine, I play ball with Joe
Schoenberg”, and he said, “Well, that’s nice”, and I said, “We play at Kuppenheimer
Field” and he said, “Oh, that’s nice” and I said, “You know I’m playing ball, baseball
with a girls organized team” , and he said, “Well, isn’t that nice?” (25:47)
I said, “Mr. Mages, I need a job, can I get a job (very blunt—no tact) at your store?” and
I think he was taken back and he said, “We don’t have any ladies in sales, we just have
them in the office part”, and I said, “That would be ok, that would be ok, can you use
me?” And he said, “I’ll tell ya, come by after school tomorrow or Monday (this was on a
Friday) and come see me”, “Wow”, I ran home and told my mom that I talked to Mr.
Mages. (26:45)
A long time ago we called our mother and father—we either called her mother or him
father or mama and daddy, because when dad would go out he would say, “You stay
home with mama”, or vice versa. I said, “Mama, mama, Mr. Mages said I could come
talk to him about a job”. She said, “Doing what?” I said, “I don’t know, just working”
and she said, “Well how much?” and I said, “I don’t know, just working” so, I couldn’t
wait until I got home from school, got my paper route done and hopped the streetcar
because Mages was on North Avenue and Crawford, it was just off Crawford, west of
Crawford and I got dressed up as nice as I could look and I took the streetcar out there.
(27:41)
I was so excited my heart was just beating and I got to the store and asked one of the
sales people and they said he was in his office and to go to his office. So, he said, “Well,
hi Dolly” and I said, “Hi Mr. Mages”, and he said, “Well, have you ever sold anything,
do you have any experience?” I said, “No, just playing ball” and he said, “Well, how
would you like to try to be in the shoe department and sell bowling shoes, ice skates and
ski boots?” I thought and said, “Sure, I would like to try, I’d love to”, and I was the first
saleswoman for Mages Sporting Goods. (28:38)
I loved my job, I loved my job and so, after I graduated and was playing ball, playing
ball in the summer and he knew that. I started going to college and I would go right to
work after that and then of course the All Americans came to be where—we graduated in
7
�1949 and we went on a barnstorming tour and I worked when I could and I thought,
(29:14)
“This isn’t fair, maybe there’s somebody who wants the job at Mages” so, I stuck to
baseball where I made some money and graduated high school, left my paper route, my
customers were very sad too because they got their tips worth when they gave me that
five cents and ten cents, their paper was at their door every night and early on Sunday
morning. I did that before church. (29:51)
Interviewer: “Let’s go back now to—you’ve kind of wrapped up your job and your
paper route and all, but how did you find out about the professional All American
Women’s League? How did you find out about that?”
Well, because of that tryout, which was held by the All American, and I was picked for
one of the four teams, which made me a part of the All American.
Interviewer: “You’re not being paid though, you said”.
We weren’t, but then at the end of 1948, after our season, the four teams were brought
together in a meeting and Len Zintack, who was from Chicago and the director of the
four teams, (30:38) asked who would be interested in going on a barn storming tour of
the United States to introduce the game to the south and the east coast so, Chicago had
two teams, they had the Springfield Sallies and the Chicago Colleens, which in 1948 did
not make it. Chicago had the Cubs and the Sox and the Bloomer Girls and some very
good softball teams and our team just couldn’t bring the crowds in. (31:14)
Springfield had the same problem. They had a good minor league team and they had
some good softball teams. So, they took the Colleens and the Sallies and they distributed
those women to the Peaches and Chicks and the teams in the All Americans, and we
became the women and girls who said “yes” they would go on a tour and we became the
Sallies and the Colleens and we traveled together on one bus touring. We started in
Oklahoma City, toured the south, New Orleans, Pensacola—(31:59)
Interviewer: “Playing against each other?”
Yes, against each other. Maybe on day I was a Colleen and one day I was a Sally, but it
didn’t make any difference, people were out to see the two teams play. We were heavily
advertised and we had wonderful crowds, we had wonderful crowds and they accepted
us. There was no one saying that girls can’t play baseball because we showed them a
very good brand of baseball. (32:29)
Interviewer: “What were you wearing?”
We were wearing the uniforms of the All Americans, the ones the Colleens and Sally’s
had.
Interviewer: “What did it look like?”
8
�It was like the pictures you see today, the uniform of the All American Girls Professional
Baseball League.
Interviewer: “You had a baseball cap and a top, but then there was a skirt.”
The—Mrs. Wrigley designed those uniforms. She wanted every one of the women to
look like ladies and the men, the manager, play like men, and that’s what we wore. It
was a skirted uniform with shorts underneath and the stockings up to our calf. 33:14
Interviewer: “How did you feel about this? This is a different time, now you can
walk around in a skirt and you can have it as short or as long as you want, there is
no difference, but in those days women didn’t wear skirts like that.”
No we didn’t and if you find a picture of the first four women who played ball, you will
notice their skirts are almost to their knees, which was still—you know, if you’re sliding
and your skirts coming up and you’re going see the shorts, but that’s all you’re going to
see. Well, each year the gals took a hem up, which was ok, the chaperones never said
anything and I don’t think anyone was reprimanded for taking a hem up and making the
skirt a little shorter. (34:08)
Interviewer: “The reason is because of the running and the—?”
Probably the running, and people say, “Well how did you ever slide or play in those
skirts?” And this was the easiest thing to do because we had shorts on and like so many
high school and college teams have today, we had a little skirt that covered that, which
made it a little more feminine looking. The charm school of course-Interviewer: “You had to go through the charm school?”
That was in the beginning of the league and I didn’t join the league until, you know, 1949
or 1948 so, I was not into make-up, but the chaperones made sure that when you were out
in public, you looked like a lady in al phases at all times. (35:08)
Interviewer: “You did this barnstorming tour, which was playing basically against
the same teams that you were playing with. When did that shift into being part of
the league that played other cities and other towns?”
After the 1949 barnstorming tour, which ended in—I believe it ended in August,
sometime in August, we were all allocated to teams in the All American League. So, my
friend Delores Muir, who just passed away two weeks ago, we were sent to the South
Bend Blue Sox. Dave Bancroft accepted us and I don’t think I played a game because it
was about two weeks. I think I was there long enough for a 1949 team picture and Grand
Rapids needed an infielder and South Bend needed a pitcher so, I was traded. (36:13)
I joined the Grand Rapids Chicks in 1949. Most of the gals did the exact—they were
sent to South Band and Fort Wayne and Peoria.
9
�Interviewer: “What was your first impression of Grand Rapids when you came
here?”
This is kind of a small city compared to Chicago. I said to somebody, “I would like to go
downtown, how long is it going to take me?” And they said, “Oh, five or ten minutes”. I
lived in Madison Square and I said, “Five or ten minutes, what?” And they said, “The
bus will get you down there”, and that reminds me—my mother came to visit and she
said she wanted to go downtown. Well, I had a game to get ready for so I said, “Ok
mama, you’re going to go to Hall St. and the fire department is on the corner of Madison
and the bus will stop and he’ll take you downtown. (37:16)
Now, notice the number of the bus and where you got off and that’s where you’ll get on”
and she said, “Ok, no problem”. Well, I get a phone call and the first thing she asked the
bus driver was she wants to go down to the loop and he said, “You must be from
Chicago?” Well, she wanted to go downtown and she got off at the wrong stop and she
went into the fire department, which was just down the street, but she didn’t recognize
anything and they told her where she wanted to go. (37:52)
That’s just kind of a side story, but I love Grand Rapids, I love Grand Rapids and it was
so fun to play here and the people I stayed with, they treated us like their daughters. I
stayed on Horton Street, right off Cottage Grove and these people, like I say, we paid
them our rent, I don’t remember what it was a month, not much, but they always told us
the refrigerator is always open. On our day off they would say, “Dolly, would you like to
have dinner with us tonight?” (38:38)
We were so a part of their family and so welcomed here that I’m sure the minor league
baseball teams that we have today stay with these families and are treated like their sons
and you don’t forget.
Interviewer: “Lets go back to—you signed up originally with this one team and you
were traded to the Grand Rapids Chicks. You’re getting paid now and there’s a
contract, give us some idea what that was about. You had to sign a contract for
what. What period of time and how much were you paid?” (39:17)
Well, first of all when I agreed to go on that barnstorming tour, my mother and dad had to
go downtown to the Wrigley Building and sign a contract because I was just sixteen. So,
off on the El we went to the Wrigley Building. They gave their permission and when I
got to South Bend or Grand Rapids, I had signed a contract on my own, I was eighteen
and I made sixty-five dollars a week and that was really big money. (40:00)
I didn’t even make that at Mages Sporting Goods. When I was on the tour, going back
to the tour in 1949, I want to say we made twenty-five dollars a week, but of course
everything was paid for, our hotel, of course the bus, we didn’t have to worry about—we
did have to buy our own meals, but I had enough money that when I left I said to my
mother, “I’m going to send you some money home and I want you to go buy yourself
some stockings or a slip, I want you to treat yourself to something, treat yourself and do
not put this money away, treat yourself, I’m ok”. (40:45)
When I got home, going back now to 1949, when I got home I said, “What did you buy
mama? What did you buy? Did you buy yourself some new shoes or stocking or a slip
or a dress?” She said, “No, I saved the money for you”, and I said, “Mother, why did you
10
�do this? I sent the money for you to treat yourself”, and she said, “I knew you would
need it for school” and so, “Ok, I got money”. I don’t remember what I had, two hundred
dollars or something like that in savings so, I went to my dad and I said, “Daddy can I
buy a car?” He said, “What are you going to use a car for?” I said, “I don’t know, can I
buy a car?” (41:51)
He said, “We’ll see”. Well, he and my uncle, my uncle Rudy, go out looking for a
car—now, I haven’t graduated yet from high school in 1949 so, one day I come home
from school—take the streetcar—came home from school and he said, “I got a surprise
for you”, and I said, “We’re going to get a car, we’re going to get a car?” and he said,
“Come on outside”. I almost cried, I mean I almost cried because here was this 1936
Plymouth four door—here’s your car, and I don’t know if people go back and log into old
cars, but they have the back door—the front door opened this way and the back door
opened this way. Well, I really didn’t want a four door gray car, but what could I say—
he would probably say, “Well, I’ll take it back”. Well Ok, I have a car and the next day I
said, “Daddy can I take my car to school?” (43:08)
Well, he jumped out of his chair and he said, “Are you crazy? Are you crazy? Nobody
drives a car to school, you take the streetcar”. So, there I am ten cents on the streetcar
and I have this 1936 Plymouth sitting in front of my house, but that’s the way it was back
then. If you see the schoolyards today, there are not many that don’t drive. It was fun to
do this, it was fun to do this and in high school I was about to graduate and my class
honored me with the most likely to succeed and in my log, Frigate, you know, the ship—
we had the log and in there it said that I wanted to be a professional baseball player, long
before the dream came true, and being outstanding athlete in my class, which made me
proud. (44:25)
I also was in the concert band and concert orchestra—I played the trombone. I had
wonderful, wonderful years in high school and all through school. Now I’m a
professional baseball player and when we have our reunions, I take the log with me and I
say, “Ok you guys, how many else lived up to what they put in the log?”
Interviewer: “Tell us about your experience with the Grand Rapids Chicks. Do you
remember your first game with them?”
Oh yes, the first game was Racine, Wisconsin and I was put right into the lineup and the
first two times at bat, I got hits and I will never forget that. (45:09)
Since that first game it became a little bit more difficult to get a hit because they knew I
couldn’t hit a curve ball and all those wonderful pitchers we had who threw fast ball with
a hop on it, they had equally wonderful curveballs. All they had to do was throw that to
me, but we played at South Field, the Grand Rapids Chicks played, and of course South
Field was a football field before they made it a baseball field. Of course we had a short
right field and with the fast balls, I could make line drives to right field—I was a good
hitter to right—but of course they knew I wasn’t that speed demon that a long time ago I
was and they would throw me out at first. (46:12)
Well, there went my batting average so, I was good field no hit, but I remember those
first two hits in Racine , Wisconsin.
Interviewer: “What was your position with the Grand Rapids Chicks?”
11
�I played third base, but at times I played second base, when our pitcher Zig would be on
the mound. I think because I was a good infielder and I had played second at one time, I
could make the double play very easy—it wasn’t difficult for me to do that—I started out
as a shortstop back in the schoolyard days, you know, Luke Appling.
Interviewer: “Professionally though, you were a third baseman?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Who were some of the teams you were playing at that time?”
We played of course, the “Rockford Peaches”, “South Bend Blue Sox”, “Peoria Red
Wings”, “Fort Wayne Daisies”, “Racine Belles”, “Kenosha Comets”, “Muskegon
Lassies”, when the league started to slow down and attendance—Battle Creek bought the
“Belles” so, we had the “Battle Creek Belles”, Muskegon slowed down so, Kalamazoo,
Michigan bought the “Lassies” and we had the “Kalamazoo Lassies”. 47:37
Interviewer: “What was a season like? The first season you played with them?
Was it a lot of traveling; was it a lot of home games? What was the actual season
like?”
I think we were split—home and away games. We played seven days a week, double
headers on holidays and Sundays and there were a lot of rain dances. We looked forward
to rain when we didn’t have a day off for a long time, but occasionally we had a day off.
Usually if we were traveling we’d have a night game and travel in the morning either to
South Bend—wouldn’t make the long trip to Peoria, we would stop at South Bend or Fort
Wayne or Rockford before going on to the longer miles. (48:35)
Interviewer: “What were these road trips like? I that when you’re traveling a lot
and then you have to play a game and then you’re traveling some more, but you’re
young of course, you’re very young, but what were these road trips like for you?
Did you like them? Were they tiring? Were they fun?”
You learn to sleep on the bus. We traveled on the Division Avenue bus line, which was a
step above a school bus, the seats were more comfortable, and so, you could take a nap.
They were fun, you would sit with a friend and chat and sometimes we would sing.
Sunday morning Alma Ziegler give her sermons so, we had a touch of religion in there
one way or another. (49:37)
Interviewer: “This is the baseball playing nun you were talking about?”
No, this was Alma Ziegler, Gabby Ziegler who played for the Grand Rapids Chicks. I
never played with our former nun. I did play with Tony Palermo, his sister Toni Marie
Palermo, she’s still in the convent, and when we have reunions today, Saturday night she
gets on the podium and reminds everybody that Sunday is tomorrow morning and “Do
you have your wakeup call in there? (50:15)
If you don’t go to church you know we’ll pray hard for you.” So, we do have a nun
still in the convent. Alice Harnet was a nun—we had three nuns—we have three
12
�physicians—three doctor. Mary Roundtree, who was a catcher for the Grand Rapids
Chicks sometime ago, just passed away in Miami and she was a surgeon, a very, very
outstanding doctor and Audrey Wagner played for, oh gosh, I don’t want to get this
wrong, I believe the Kenosha Comets and she was a doctoring California and she flew
her own plane and she was going to a medical convention and crashed. So, we lost not
only lost one of the outstanding outfielders and hitters and outstanding physicians, but we
lost Audrey too. (51:26)
Interviewer: “These road trips to other towns, had you traveled—I know you were
from Chicago and Chicago of course is a big city with a lot of different types of
people and different things around you—groups and what not. How different was it
when you went to all these other towns? Was there a sense of I’m in a new town
here, I’m from a big city and this is a small town, what were your reactions to these
other areas and places?”
Of course the towns were all the size of Grand Rapids so we enjoyed it. We stayed in
very nice hotels, we were given three dollars a day meal money so, we always had that
fifty-nine cent breakfast. If there was a good movie and we didn’t have to play until
evening, we took in the first feature. We saved our two and a half dollars for an evening
meal and sometimes that would only cost us a dollar and a half so we saved a dollar.
(52:31)
The towns were lovely, the fans of course were anti-Chicks, but they only treated us that
way when we were at the ball field, you know boo, boo, boo and what have you.
Cheered hard for their teams, Fort Wayne was noted—they had a tailor in Fort Wayne
and of course we had to wear skirts, and it seemed like every team visited this tailor to
have their skirts made. (53:03)
We would pick the material up and he would measure us up and then on our next trip
back, we would pick-up our skirts and you could tell everyone who had their skirts made
by him, they were very tailored. I think I wore them when I was married. I mean the
herringbones and the wool skirts so; I remember that about Fort Wayne. Fort Wayne also
had a sporting goods store that would carry spikes our sizes. Rawlings made the spikes
and they would carry a size four or a size five, specially made for the women. Another
city that’s well known is, I believe, Racine that had the Jockey--Jockey Cooper and they
made the men’s underwear. Well, at one time they would turn their factory over for a
short period and they would make Jockey underwear for the women, of course a whole
different pattern in the front, but we would always order out undies from Jockey so, those
are two towns. (54:34)
Interviewer: “What ever happened to your—the place you worked for, the sports
place you worked for in Chicago?”
Mages? You know, I believe Mages sold his stores when he retired.
Interviewer: “I mean when you became a baseball player and they were actually
paying you to be a professional baseball player did you ever go back there?”
13
�I did, I did and I talked to all my friends there and they kept saying, “You’re playing
baseball now and I’d have some pictures to show them and they were quite proud and I
said, “Now you catch our games if you go to Kenosha, which is a short drive”, That’s
where my mom and dad would catch our games, up in Kenosha. “It’s a short drive—
come see us and call me and let me know if you’re coming and I’ll get you tickets”, so,
they were quite proud that I made a stepping stone to something I loved. (55:37)
Interviewer: “How did your dad react to that?”
Oh, my dad was so proud. He would tell everybody, my Dolly is playing baseball,
softball, my Dolly is playing baseball and we’re going to see her next weekend. They
had a car—I don’t know what happened to my 1936 Plymouth, I guess when I left for
Grand Rapids, I didn’t take that car. He probably sold it, which was good and I don’t
remember back then, but I know I didn’t have my gray Plymouth anymore. (56:17)
People at Mages were quite proud of me and I’d always ask them, “Do you miss me in
the shoe department?” When I’d talk to people, especially when I’d sell them a pair of
ski boots I’d say, “Well, where do you ski?” They would say, “Well, in northern
Michigan”, and I’d say “Northern Michigan, past Grand Rapids?” “Oh, Boyne City and
Traverse City”, and not being familiar with northern Michigan, I said, “Oh, I think that’s
quite a bit North of Grand Rapids, I play ball there”, and they would say, “Oh, you do?”
Of course they wouldn’t see me in the summertime so, I’d sell ski boots and of course
bowling shoes and going back to 19—in the early forties, when the war started, in 1943
my uncle enlisted, that was my fathers very best friend. (57:19)
Now, my dad bowled too and again, “tag along Dolly”, I can remember the Windy City
Bowling—they were bowling alleys back then, not bowling lanes, and he would take me
and they would have the best orange soda in the whole world so, “Daddy, daddy can I go
with you tonight? Can I go with you?” and he would take me with him and the first thing
we would get in there, he would go to the bar and I’d have my orange soda and he would
say, “Now, sit and be quiet”, and I would say, “Oh, I’ll be very quiet”. I would watch his
team bowl and I said to him one time, “Can I try this game? Can I try bowling?” and he
said, “Ok” so, one Sunday morning after church we went to the bowling part and he got
me a ball with small finger holes and my father always bent over, it was very unique, he
always bent over and the ball hung down and he would push away. (58:19)
That’s the way I bowl, I followed his form, and there was sometimes the pin boys, you
know, they were off to war and they wouldn’t have one and he would go back to the pits
and he would set pins for me and then I would go back to the pits and I would set a game
for him. That way it only cost us a nickel instead of a dime to bowl a game.
Interviewer: “Let’s get back to baseball.”
I was just going to say that I became a professional bowler too.
Interviewer: “I didn’t know that. The first game you said you played with the
Grand Rapids, Chicks and you had two hits and after that it was a lot more difficult
to get hits because the pitchers were on to you. Is that because you played you
played these teams so often, they were able to—there weren’t that many teams for
one thing—“
14
�There were eight teams at that time.
Interviewer: “Eight teams.”
They each had—I would say, they each had four pitchers so, I didn’t face everybody in
the same series or time after time, but I’m sure I faced all of the pitchers at one time or
another. (59:40)
Interviewer: “How was your first season?”
It was good, it was good, my batting average wasn’t that bad, of course it wasn’t 300, but
I had a good season on the field, I enjoyed playing along side of my team mates, who
were very helpful, John Rawlings was our manager and he was a member of the
Pittsburgh Pirates and very knowledgeable Hall of Fame player, and because my hitting
wasn’t the best, I would have to go out there every day we were home and he would pitch
to me. Today I realize what I was doing wrong. (01:00:31) I was not throwing my arms
out at the ball, I was kind of crimping in on them and I think back, “No wonder I wasn’t a
good hitter, now I have to tell the kids how to throw the bat at the ball” .
Interviewer: “What were some of your memorable games? Which ones really stick
out in your mind?”
I find that question, not impossible, but difficult, because every game out there was a joy
for me. I looked forward to every game we played, there was never a game where I was
bored, there was never a time in my life I was bored, Always something to do,
(01:01:23)
I guess the one game—it was in Kalamazoo and probably the shocker of my life because
I hit one off the fence in center field and it was right off the top of the fence and it came
back into the field and I only got a triple, I don’t know if I scored or not or what
happened because I was in seventh heaven—to see me hit that ball that far—I think John
Rawlings fainted in the dugout. I don’t even know if my team cheered for me because
they must have all been in shock. (01:02:03)
That’s one game that stands out ant that was extremely fun.
Interviewer: “I have seen film footage of professionals like you sliding into a base
and it doesn’t look comfortable. Could you explain what it was like to actually slide
into a base?” (01:02:29)
One experience that I had—now we’ll be shocked again because I got a hit, and I’m
standing on first and not taking a big lead off and John Rawlings gives me the steal sign
and I’m thinking, “Does he know who he’s giving a steal sign to?” Old turtle Dolly?
Well, he thought I could get a—the pitcher had a high kick and “ok, he’s giving me the
steal sign”, I’ll show him I can do it. So, off I take and I slid and I was safe, but I had the
biggest, hurtingest strawberry in the whole world. (01:03:24) Well, everybody is saying,
“Just shake it off, shake it off”, well I’m not going to cry out there—I’d like to—
eventually a hit was made and I scored. I got to the dugout, Dotty Hunter waiting for me
15
�because she knew. Out came the methialate, we had the fan going, which is all your
teammates blowing and I’m thinking, “This is going to burn, this is going to burn like the
fires of hell”. On goes the methialate, on goes the bandage, a big bandage—get out there
and play. (01:04:09)
Well, I did my job, “It doesn’t hurt until the next day I’m thinking, it doesn’t hurt more
until the next day”. The next time I get up—this should be my most memorable game—
Dolly gets a hit—“I got another hit, this pitcher must like me, she’s grooving it”. I’m
standing at first and I look over across the playing field and John Rawlings gives me the
steal sign again and I’m thinking, “If I have to slide, they’re taking me to Butterworth
Hospital or some hospital that’s nearby, I know it for sure”. He gives me the steal sign—
well, up it goes, a high kick again and I ran in there. The catcher threw it to center
field—I didn’t have to slide and I’m thinking, everybody in the dugout is clapping too,
“Hey she made it to second”. Well, I don’t know if I scored on that one or not, but John,
as I came in, he was smiling at me and I said, “Did you think I was going slide again?”
He just smiled and walked away. (01:05:33)
I guess maybe we’ll chuck that hitting the top of the fence and use this as my most
memorable game. Two hits and a strawberry and the “ouchie”. It takes a while for that
to go away and it starts peeling and you want another hit, but if John gives me the steal
sign again I’ll really cry.
Interviewer: “Did anybody ever get hurt that you remember, beaned on the head
with a ball or anything like that?”
I don’t remember, I remember not getting beaned, but going back to the barnstorming
tour, one of our Cuban gals had a fastball, but she also had a very fast curve ball and I
was batting against her and she had thrown me a fastball and it was high, and I knew she
was going to throw me another fastball—I knew it, I knew it—I stood in that box and
here comes that fastball right at my arm, but I thought it was going to curve because she
was kind of smiling—that she would throw me the curve and get me to go for it—so, I’m
waiting for the fast curve and that ball is coming so fast and it didn’t curve and I didn’t
get out of the way and it hit my arm. (01:07:18) I couldn’t lift my arm for two or three
days and it was black and blue and of course we were on the barnstorming tour and we
were all living together and I said, “I thought you were going to throw me a curve”, and
she said, “I a fool a you, right Dolly?” I said, “You didn’t fool me, you hurt me”, but to
this day we’re still friends.
Interviewer: “The crowds initially were big, but you said there was a period of time
where it started to get less, the crowds were less and less. Did you actually notice
that?”
Of course I was through playing in 1952, but I had still gone to some of the games in
1953. I was in an automobile accident and hurt my leg so, that kind of finished my
playing career, but so many people ask, “Why did the league fold? Why did the people?”
This my own theory, now high schools were-this was really a family gathering, families
came to our games and now high schools were beginning to blossom out and have
activities in the evening. Cars now had gas so, dad could go here and mother could go to
the movies and get her dish. Back then if you went to the movies on Wednesday night,
16
�you could make a dish collection. Of course television was in the ballgame now and who
wanted to go out when Uncle Miltie was on? No body, your Show of Shows, they kept
the family around this new invention, television. (01:09:28) So, we saw the crowds drop
and like I say, it was a family and the family went from a closeness to everybody is out
doing their own thing so, the money wasn’t there to pay us and it wasn’t coming from
anywhere but the fans, and I always like to add this today, “We see the family now today,
coming back together. Who’s at the football games together? Who’s at the soccer games
together? Who takes the kids out to the golf course together? It’s mom and dad and the
kids and this is so wonderful because our children need this today. They need to know
that the family once again cares”. (01:10:27)
Interviewer. “I know you have been asked a variation on this question before, but
we know for a fact, the fact that you played baseball, that women played
professional baseball, did have an impact on the changing attitudes that schools had
toward girls playing sports and whatnot and now, as you well know, there’s soccer
teams, girls baseball team, there’s all kinds of things. What is your personal
opinion? What do you think was the effect, not just you, but your fellow players
had on the attitudes that people had towards girls and women?”
I am so proud to have been a part of the All Americans and to show people that women
had skills and if title nine was passed not only because of us, now young ladies can see
their dreams come true, like we saw our dreams, we are so proud to have been a part of
this and I went to a couple of the U.S. Olympic Softball Team games and these women,
these young women come up and to us and hug us and say “Thank you, because of you,
we can do this”, and not only myself, but you can talk to the oldest player in our league
or the youngest and they have the same pride that I do, and young girls, no matter what
they play, the Olympians, to be so proud of that team and to have them say, “Because of
you, we’re here”, makes us so proud. (01:12:38)
Interviewer: “Baseball Hall of Fame, tell us about—how did you find out? What
happened?”
The Baseball Hall of Fame, you know, we didn’t put on any marches, we didn’t put on
any protests, but we had a group of women in Fort Wayne, Dottie Collins—it was our
first board of directors that slowly went there and show them. Ted Spencer—let me tell
you something about Ted Spencer, the Curator. (01:13:27) He was schooled in Boston
and it just so happens that one of the players we had in 1943 named Mary Pratt, happened
to be a gym teacher, not PE, gym teacher in the one of the Boston schools. One of her
students was this young boy named Ted Spencer. Well, when we started, I want to say
we, but I talk about this board slowly infiltrating—no protests, just presenting the facts.
Going there, she found out that Ted Spencer happens to be the curator of the National
Baseball Hall of Fame. (01:14:27)
Well, what an in. so, she goes there, the Hall has a lot of her memorabilia, she contacts
our board and now they start having meetings with him and this has gone on since we
became an organization, a players organization in 1982, and we now get the word that
there’s a possibility that the hall of fame would recognize the All American Girls
17
�professional baseball league. How excited, how excited—I know a lot of the women
today say that we’ve been inducted and it’s because their proud, but in 1988, November
5th, 1988, the National Baseball Hall of Fame recognized all of the All American Girls.
(01:15:33)
They wanted to induct—there were some names thrown at them for induction, but our
board said, “No, we want to go in as a group. If we’re not inducted, we would be
honored to be recognized”, and Jane Forbes Clark, who is the CEO of—and has been one
of our biggest supporters, they have had us there on Mothers Day, and we have signed
autographs, they have—the tenth anniversary of the movie, they had Penny Marshall and
the movie stars, and we were invited to go along and she signed a book and we had
dinner with them, they have promoted us, they have things in their gift shop that are
related to us, they show the movie, Abbott and Costello, A League of Their Own and in
the bleachers, which is a section of the hall of fame, we had our sixtieth reunion and
Cooperstown wasn’t big enough to hold all the women who were going to be there so, we
stayed in Syracuse, but we had buses take us there. (01:17:03)
We had a breakfast in honor of us, we had, right in the hall where the pictures of the hall
of famers are, they had tables set with white table clothes and they had waiters in
tuxedos and white gloves, and they just honored us in the highest praise they could give
us and they do this, they do this. Now when they remodeled, we have a display on the
second floor which has pictures and memorabilia and the honor they have given us, we
are so proud of. (01:17:55)
Interviewer: “That’s wonderful, that’s wonderful. What’s your relationship with
the Whitecaps here locally?”
Before they became the Whitecaps I knew Lew Chamberlin and I talked to him because
he would have lunch at Crystal Springs Country Club. We belong there and we knew
they were working on bringing a baseball team and so many times I would sit down at the
table and say, “Lew, Grand Rapids, Michigan needs baseball back here again, don’t give
up your dream, don’t give up the pushing, don’t give up the hope, of bringing someone
here”, and Mr. VanderWitte is a friend of Lew’s and a friend of mine so, when I would
see him I’d say,” Please, keep prodding him, keep prodding him, people may give him
negative this and that, look what happened here, look what happened there, we need
baseball here”. (01:19:13)
So, I have been, not the last couple of years—summers have been really—I’ve been out
on speaking engagements and doing a lot of traveling, but we were the first ones to have
box seats out there the first season and I can go up and into the office and knock on the
door and say, “How ya going? How’s everything?” “Good, good”, and Jim Jarecki and
their all very close to my heart. Don’t worry, they’ll bring the—they’ve had so many
championships; you have to be proud of this team.
Interviewer: “They are very supportive of this project by the way. I have met with
Dan McCrath and with Jim and they are very much supporting the idea of doing
this documentary film. In fact they even helped—next summer they are going to
have some announcements and we are going to be helping to be part of this Library
of Congress Veterans History Project, to get the veterans who are in that crowd to
18
�come forward and be interviewed. I was very, very pleased with their respect for
not only the project it’s self, but for the “Chicks”. (01:20:22) It’s interesting,
somebody told me that one of the Grand Rapids Chicks threw a ball out this last
season, was that you or do you know who it was?”
I didn’t throw out this season, but we’ve thrown them out several times and Jim has said,
“You know we’ve got to get you girls back there again this year”. I’ve been kind of
proud because I’ve thrown the first ball out for the Braves and the Yankees. The Braves
in Cleveland, the Braves in St. Louis, down at spring training, and two summers ago,
maybe three, time flies when you have fun, I was invited out to Washington D.C. to the
Nationals game, to throw out the first pitch there, and they were playing the Cubs.
(01:21:11) We had a rain delay for a while, but eventually they called me to the mound.
I threw a perfect strike at the catcher, he never moved his glove, and forty seven thousand
people gave me a standing ovation, but now I don’t know why. Is it because I threw the
strike? Is it because an eighty-six year old lady could run? Or eighty—eighty, what am I
talking about? I’m only seventy-six, or I’ll just call it an old lady, could throw the ball?
(01:21:52) When I finished throwing that pitch, I got off the field and was going back to
the seats, of course everybody was standing and clapping and high fives and there were
two ladies that yelled and came running out there and had to have pictures so, were
standing in the aisle and we even held up the beer man for pictures. That was one of my
extremely fun outings.
Interviewer: “As we close, is there anything that you want to say? Something that
you think is important to get on the record about your experience with playing
baseball?” (01:22:37)
The girls and myself had this extra ordinary experience playing baseball in the All
American Girls Professional Baseball League. It was a time that we don’t know if ever
will happen again. We were born at the right time, we were in the right place and our
experience that we had then and that we have now, speaking and making this type of
documentary, the honor it has given us, and we will keep doing it until the grass is above
us. We love what we do—the grandmas out there now do not baby sit anymore, we’ve
told our children to go get a baby sitter because we’re busy doing and telling our story to
people who want to hear it. (01:23:44)
Interviewer: “Thank you so much, it was a real pleasure”
You’re welcome, you’re welcome.
19
�20
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-58_DKonwinski
Title
A name given to the resource
Konwinski, Dolores L. (Interview transcript and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Konwinski, Dolores L.
Description
An account of the resource
Dolly Konwinski was born on May 27, 1931 in Chicago Illinois. Starting at the age of seven, she played baseball with a neighborhood team and her father who encouraged her to pursue it. In 1947, Konwinski got her big break and tried out for one of the four teams the All American Girls Professional Baseball League was trying to form in Chicago. She began her professional career playing for the Chicago Colleens. In 1949, after the barnstorming tour she was allocated to play for the Springfield Sallies. In 1950, she was traded to the Grand Rapids Chicks and played mainly for them until 1952 but played for a brief time with the Battle Creek Belles in 1951. During her professional career she mainly played second and third base.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-10-06
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4