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ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
JANE JACOBS BADINI
Women in Baseball
Born: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio June 16, 1924
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit,
MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 26, 2011
Interviewer: “Let‟s start with your full name and where and when were you born?”
My name is Jane Janette Jacobs. I was born in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio at 1836 4th Street.
Interviewer: “When were you born?”
I was born June 16, 1924
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
Well, I thought it was pretty good, I don’t know if you’d like to—my childhood—my
mother found out when I was four years old that I was blind in my left eye, but I had—
blind from birth and she was over protective, really over protective of me and everything.
27:53 We had—in the back yard there was a lot of property there and that’s where we
played baseball and playing there, but I was the only girl. All the rest of them were guys.
Interviewer: “Now, this is a neighborhood? A city neighborhood?”
Yes, oh yeah
Interviewer: “All right, so neighborhood kids kind of got together in a vacant lot to
play ball?”
Yeah, we just played and enjoyed ourselves.
Interviewer: “So, you had a baseball, a bat, you had gloves?”
Yes
Interviewer: “How did you get your equipment? Did your parent buy it?”
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�I had two older brothers.
Interviewer: “Ah”
They were baseball players and my older brother—at one time both my brothers were
pitchers, and then my one brother, well they both were very, very good, but my one
brother was an exceptionally good batter, so they asked him not to pitch anymore because
they were going to use him for a batter all the time, but my brother Chuck, he pitched and
he was terrific, terrific. 29:16 That’s how that was broke up, and then they got so nice
with me because they wanted to teach me and since I was a tomboy you know. That’s
what they referred to you then when you were out with just a bunch of guys, and there I
was, the only girl.
Interviewer: “How was school for you?”
School? It was good; I got good grades and everything in school.
Interviewer: “So the baseball part was just like any other kid? It was just after
school you played baseball?”
Yes
Interviewer: “What position did you play back then?” 29:57
Oh, I was always a pitcher.
Interviewer: “Always a pitcher?‟
Yeah, my brothers would show me.
Interviewer: “Were you playing softball or baseball?”
Well, at that time we were playing softball.
Interviewer: “So, it was underhand?”
Oh yes
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�Interviewer: “Did you continue playing into high school?”
Yes, I played in high school and I remember our gym teacher said, “Jane, let them hit the
ball”, and I said, “no, I don’t think so”, and the gym teacher said, “ you know you are
supposed to win if you can”, and I said, “if I let them hit the ball it’s not going to be
good”, so the teacher said, “let them hit it anyway”, and I said, “no, no, I can’t do that”.
30:45
Interviewer: “How—your high school had a baseball team?”
It was gym really because we didn’t have much of that then.
Interviewer: “Ok, how come you were playing? You‟re a girl, how could you be
playing baseball in high school?”
Well, that’s the way it was. I think it was once a week, to tell you the truth. It wasn’t
like playing every day.
Interviewer: “It wasn‟t a formal team?”
No, it wasn’t a regular baseball team, no.
Interviewer: “So you had it almost like before were you had the neighborhood kids
play baseball, in high school you just played baseball?”
Yeah, right
Interviewer: “Ok, all right, when did you first hear about the opportunity for an all
American Girls Professional Baseball League? How did you hear about that?”
Well, I heard when I played amateur ball when I was sixteen and got terrific—I was
really good, I think I had twenty-four wins and either twenty-four or twenty-six, and four
losses. 31:54 We had twins that played on the team then and their dad was the manager,
I think that’s what you called them in those days, and that’s how I got to play.
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�Interviewer: “So you—this is still during high school that you‟re playing in this
amateur league, ok. Did your parent like the idea of you playing baseball like
that?”
Well, my mom didn’t know anything about baseball, and oh my gosh, my dad was a
pitcher and like I say, my brother was a pitcher and he changed to be a batter.
Interviewer: “But they encouraged you?”
Oh yeah, my mom didn’t care that much, but my dad sure did.
Interviewer: “Well good, so you‟re playing with this amateur league and somebody
sees you, is that how it worked out?” 32:53
Yeah, they started to send scouts you know.
Interviewer: “What year was this?”
Well, they sent scouts when I was—that was a couple of years later. It was just before—
when they started the league it was 1943.
Interviewer: “1943, so when did you actually—“
We had teams and we traveled to different little cities.
Interviewer: “Ok, the scout came around and saw you play—“
Yeah, then I went to Chicago.
Interviewer: “So you were invited to go to tryouts?”
Yes, right
Interviewer: “How did you get there?”
By train
Interviewer: “Train, ok, were you by yourself?”
Yes, at that particular time I was.
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�Interviewer: “Had you ever traveled very far before?” 33:57
No, no it was completely different back then you know.
Interviewer: “What was the experience of taking the train trip out to Chicago for
the tryouts like?”
Well, I was kind of scared to tell you the truth, because I hadn’t been out like that. It was
interesting, when we got there they had someone meet us and we tried out at Wrigley
Field in Chicago. We were a little nervous because we didn’t know whether we were
going to make it or not, but I made it immediately.
Interviewer: „What was that experience like of walking onto the field. Were there
girls out there in uniforms already playing?”
No, we didn’t have uniforms yet because we had to make the teams and I don’t know
what they called the teams because they hadn’t organized the teams yet.
Interviewer: “So what were the tryouts like? Did they have you field balls? Were
they hitting balls to you? Were you catching? What were the tryouts?”
I was just pitching because I wasn’t very good as a fielder you know. 35:00
Interviewer: “So you were pitching and other girls would go up to the mound and
they would pitch and scouts were watching?”
We were playing in different positions in different places you know.
Interviewer: “Did you find out that day that you got in?”
I don’t think we found out that day. It seems to me that it was, I hope I’m not wrong, but
I think it was about a week before we heard because there were others that had to tryout
with yet and that took a little time.
Interviewer: “So, were you still in Chicago or did you come back home?”
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�I came back home.
Interviewer: “So, they contacted you at home?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Tell me about getting that, it must have been a letter in the mail,
huh?” 35:52
It could have been a telephone call or something. So, we had the tryout and everything
and there were only four teams when it first started in 1943, and like I said, in the
beginning I went there and made the team real good and I got real sick.
Interviewer: “Got sick?”
Well, I got the Mumps and then I was a little afraid because I had to stay behind. I
wasn’t use to that straying home and not going out anywhere. That was my first trip that
I took in my life, so I went home and instead of going back, which I could have, I just oh
no, I didn’t feel like it. Then I got the opportunity and got a contract and everything to
come the following year. 37:00
Interviewer: “Nobody had any problem with the fact that you were blind in one
eye?”
They didn’t know it and this is a good story. I thought well, I’m not going to tell them
I’m blind in one eye, and nobody knew it, even my friends, and I had a lot of friends and
everything. One day Bob Knolls, he came to interview me after the picture was shown
because I was taken on sick leave in a Limousine and all that so, anyway what was the
question again?
Interviewer: “That they didn‟t know that you were blind in one eye, yeah. You
mean the whole time you were playing baseball people didn‟t know?”
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�No, even my friends because I never told them see. 37:58 When Bob was interviewing
me and everything, I said, “Bob, I’ll tell you one thing, but I don’t want you to be writing
this up”, I said, “I was blind in one eye. I was born blind.”, and he said, “What?”, and I
said, “Yeah”, and he said, “you could do a lot of good for kids that have a handicap.
Would you please allow me to use this as a fact?” He said, “you will be surprised how
much it helps kids”, which I was in the future, because they held them back you see.
Through that kids started to do whatever they could.
Interviewer: “So you tried out and what team did you get on?”
I got on the Racine Belles and I played for two years with the Belles.
Interviewer: “That meant that you had to move to Racine, so your parents were ok
with your going?”
Yeah, we stayed in people’s homes out there rather than staying in a hotel.
Interviewer: “Hotels, right, did you have to go through that charm school?”
Oh yes, I went through the charm school, and in fact there’s a write-up in the paper. You
have one of the papers, don’t you?
Interviewer: “Tell us about that.”
Well, we weren’t that way, we were a little—we just didn’t like that you know because
we had to use make-up and everything and we didn’t like it.
Interviewer: “What were some of the things they had you do? In the movie they
show a book on the head.”
I was going to say, we had to walk a certain way and you couldn’t be tomboyish or
anything like that because you had to be a young lady, so I thought it was terrible. 40:05
I said, “my God it was terrible” Am I allowed to say “My God?”
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�Interviewer: “So the basic idea was that you had to act like a lady , so you had to sit
a certain way and you had to eat a certain way and they taught you how to use the
knife and the fork?”
Well, they didn’t do that, but don’t slop it.
Interviewer: “You say that you really didn‟t like it, the girls didn‟t really like it, but
it was part of what you had to do.”
You had to do it, you had no choice, and we just had to.
Interviewer: “So, did that just happen? Did they do the charm school just a day or
did they do it every day for a period of time?”
For a while, but I truthfully don’t remember.
Interviewer: “So, it wasn‟t just a one day thing, you had to go in there and they
taught you one thing and then they taught you another thing?
Yes
Interviewer: Ok, alright, how was your first season?” 41:06
Well, the first season I did pretty good you know.
Interviewer: “You were a rookie, right?”
Yeah, right
Interviewer: “Did you sit on the bench very much the first year?”
I was right in there pretty much you know. As you will see by the card my earned run
average was terrific, but if they didn’t get runs for you, you couldn’t win the game, right?
Interviewer: “Oh yeah, and you started out as a pitcher, you were first string
pitcher?”
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�Well, we had I don’t know how many pitchers because you had a pretty good number of
games you had to play, so we took our turns. 42:00
Interviewer: “You had home games and you had road trip games. How were the
road trips?”
They were good and we traveled the road trips by bus and stayed in hotels, but we stayed
in the people’s homes there in Racine.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?”
Well, it was different you know, but we had to wear them, we had no choice, absolutely
no choice.
Interviewer: “Several of the girls said they had to adjust the dresses or skirts, or
whatnot, because it‟s difficult to play ball that way. Did you do anything like that
with your uniform?”
If you notice in the pictures—I think it shows in the picture where—you know they were
so full here they got in out way as we pitched, so it shows the uniform where we had to
pin it down, so when we came through with the ball we weren’t in touch with the
material. 43:07
Interviewer: “Yeah, so you started out playing underhand, right?”
Oh yeah,
Interviewer: “And it was a softball size?”
A twelve inch, yeah.
Interviewer: “You were already use to doing that though.”
Yeah
Interviewer: “Now after your first season, you came back home?”
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�Oh yes, at the end of the season, yeah, I came back home again.
Interviewer: “And what did you do?”
Well eventually—after I retired, I retired after—I could have played—see, I played four
years. I had a contract to go to the fifth, but my statistics, and I don’t mean to be
bragging on you, but it was so good that the talk went through my mind that if I have a
bad season I’m going to ruin everything, and this way I’m going out—and you will see
the statistics, they were very good, and I didn’t want to do that, so I had the contract
signed and everything and I said I wasn’t going to play any more and this was the end of
my professional ball. 44:22
Interviewer: “We‟ll get back to that later on, but I want to get back to that first
season. You played out the season, and then you came back home. Did you move
back in with your parents or did you have to work?”
I was with my parents you know.
Interviewer: “Did you have to work?”
I worked for Woolworth’s down on Front Street in Cuyahoga Falls. I started working
and you know.
Interviewer: “Did they know you were a baseball player?”
Yeah, they did
Interviewer: “Were you kind of a local celebrity?” 45:00
Well, we didn’t do that much celebrity at that time you know.
Interviewer: “But it was unusual for a girl to be playing professional baseball.”
Yes it was.
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�Interviewer: “So the second season comes along and you get another contract
playing for the same team?”
Yes
Interviewer: “So you move to Racine, and did you stay in the same house?”
Yes, we were friends you know. The people, Conrad was their name, and they were
just—they treated me so great. When we had a few days off or anything, and they would
go out of town, they took me right with them and we enjoyed it, and we became—they
had two daughters and even after I retired and everything—when I was playing ball the
daughter always came to watch and after I retired they kept writing to me and we wrote
back and forth—it was great. 46:01
Interviewer: “How was your second season? You‟re not a rookie anymore.”
No I wasn’t, but I was treated great, absolutely great and that’s what everyone else is
saying.
Interviewer: “Are there any highlights or games that you remember that were
exceptional? You said that you were a pretty good pitcher.”
I was a good pitcher. The thing, the big thing that was really something was that I was
allowed to bat. You know my left eye was blind and everything and I hit a home run.
Unbelievable, I couldn’t believe it myself you know. That drew a lot of attention.
Interviewer: “That‟s wonderful, that‟s wonderful. Sp then you‟re offered a third
season, but this time you‟re playing with a different team?”
Yes, because they were trying to equalize the teams and see what you could do, so I
played the whole year with them and then I got to go back to Racine, which really tickled
me because I loved playing with Racine. 47:11
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�Interviewer: “What was the other team you played with?”
Peoria
Interviewer: “Peoria, ok. That was the third year you went to Peoria?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Ok, alright”
Peoria, and then back to Racine again, and then I quit.
Interviewer: “Was there a big difference in the playing from Racine to Peoria?”
No, it was pretty much the same thing.
Interviewer: “Were you still pitching underhand?”
Yes, oh yes
Interviewer: “So the side arm didn‟t come until later?”
Yeah, I don’t know how many years later.
Interviewer: “How were the fans?”
Wonderful, oh my goodness, they couldn’t do enough for us. They would invite us to
their homes, the whole team they would have coming to their home. They would invite
us and just be wonderful. 48:04
Interviewer: “Now the beginning of the league, at least some of the stories were that
the fans kind of thought it was a novelty, these girls playing baseball, did you
experience that too?”
A little, yeah
Interviewer: “But soon, playing ball, they realized these are good players?”
Right, yes they did.
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�Interviewer: “So, in your third season, you‟re playing once again, were you
thinking about this as a career?”
No, never once
Interviewer: “You did it because it was fun and they were paying you.”
Yeah, I’ll tell yeah, we made a big, big salary. We got fifty dollars a week.
Interviewer: “Were you able to send some money home?”
Yeah, because when I grew up we didn’t have as much or anything else. We were kind
of hard up and I always thought of my parents and sent a little bit of money.
Interviewer: “At that stage in your life, what did you think you wanted to do?
You‟re playing baseball and you‟re getting paid, but what is it you wanted to do?”
49:13
I had an idea that I wanted to go into my own little business at that young age and that’s
exactly—I worked for Acme for a while and then I thought, “ well it’s about time that I
start”, so I went around to the houses and picked up junk and I went into the dry cleaning
business although I put it out to be done by other businesses that were doing it and I built
a pretty darn good business. First I had a car and when I got a little money, I got a truck
you know and I went around and gosh, the people were wonderful to me, they were. It
was unusual to have a girl dry cleaner. 50:10
Interviewer: “So, your fourth year comes along and you‟re still playing with
Racine, but you made a very important decision?”
Yes I did, at the end.
Interviewer: “Could you tell us—how did you come to that decision?”
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�Well, just like I mentioned, I had very good statistics and man, they were great, for that
time they were, and I got home and thought, “What if I have a bad year?” So, that’s
when I quit. I worked around a little bit at stores like Acme you know, and then I
thought, “I’m going into my own business”, and started a route of dry cleaning and I
rented a little shop on Tallmadge Road in Cuyahoga Falls. Believe me or not, but I
bought the place after a couple of years and I still have the place and that’s the story.
51:23
Interviewer: “Did you miss it, baseball?”
Yeah, because we weren’t allowed to play on another team because we were considered
professionals, but my brother Chuck, he was a—he worked for plumbing and heating,
and they always had—every year they had a little shindig going on and they said,
“Chuck, we want your sister to come down here and pitch for us, you know, we’ve never
had any audience of any kind”, and he said, “I’m sure she will”, and so I did and
eventually I was the CEO officer at the heating and plumbing for twenty years and I
made a lot of friends down there because I just wasn’t allowed to play any more. 52:22 I
had customers from there and it worked out real good.
Interviewer: “What were some of the highlights? I mean, you get together with
these gals for these reunions and what stories do you tell? A no hitter or?”
The biggest thing for me that I tell, was hitting that one home run. That’s the greatest
thing and no one believes it hardly because I was a lousy batter.
Interviewer: “Most pitchers are.”
Yeah
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�Interviewer: “I was a pitcher too, in little league, and my claim to fame is that I got
a homerun on a bunt.”
On a bunt?
Interviewer: “That‟s how bad the other team was, so I can appreciate your
homerun there. I only had one in my life too. 53:24 Did you talk about being a
professional baseball player after you left the league and were working in the dry
cleaning?”
No, because my intention was—we grew up poor, my family and my mom and dad had
very little, and I wanted to do something where I could help my mom, I had the greatest
mom in the world, absolutely, the super greatest mom in the world. We didn’t have
much, but we had respect for each other and loved each other you know and we kind of
went along that way. 54:03
Interviewer: “So, you were able to help support her?”
Oh yes, because I didn’t get married until I was forty-nine, so that was a long way to go.
Interviewer: “But you were a career woman I guess, from early on, and there
weren‟t many career women around then.” 54:16
No there weren’t
Interviewer: “did you already have that kind of drive before you played
professional baseball or did professional baseball kind of help you to make that
move into that?”
I never thought of that and I wanted my mom to have it good because she was such a
good soul. A terrific lady and my drive was to do something for my mom, and I did.
Interviewer: “What did those four years do for you, playing baseball?”
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�Well, I think it gave you a lot of—what it is when you feel good about yourself?
Interviewer: “Confidence?”
Yes, that’s it
Interviewer: “Because you were a young girl.”
Oh yeah
Interviewer: “You played ball and you felt a little more confident.”
Oh my goodness, yeah, and the fans, it was unbelievable; they lined up just to get your
autograph. 55:20 That went on for the four years that I played.
Interviewer: “Did you have fans that kind of picked you out and you were their
favorite?”
Well, yes, I don’t want to brag, but I’m not going to lie either. Oh, yeah, oh my goodness
yes, they invited us out for dinner and everything, and it was really nice.
Interviewer: „so you didn‟t really talk about the league, you didn‟t talk about being
in baseball for many, many years?”
Oh no, and I wasn’t allowed to play amateurs and it died out.
Interviewer: “Right, but in terms of that part of your life, you were moving on and
you were going to go and do other things.”
Yes 56:08
Interviewer: “When did that change?”
Well, it changed not too many years afterwards because I was always thinking, in my
mind, what could I do to help my mom because she was such a good, good woman, so
she could have a little better life than what she had, and yet, I never wanted to sound like
I was bragging about anything because there was much, much love among us.
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�Interviewer: “Did you know when the league ended? Did you see the newspapers
or did you know in 1954 that it was all over with?”
I don’t think I knew right away. I was out of there and I didn’t pay much attention to it.
57:02
Interviewer: “Did you keep in contact at all with any of the girls that you played
with?”
Eventually I did, but mostly with the family I stayed with. I was, oh my goodness,
because we played near San Francisco, I got to love San Francisco because I went out
there so much to see them and everything, and I would go out four times a year. It was
only for a few days or a week and they always wanted me to come to their house and they
would take me somewhere. We would go somewhere, you know, to enjoy ourselves. I
was just great and I don’t know if I’m explaining it right or not.
Interviewer: “Well, I think you‟ve seemed to developed a close and almost second
family.”
Yes, I did and I called them mom and pop and they wanted me to.
Interviewer: “Did they have any opinion about your quitting baseball?” 58:01
Well, a lot of people didn’t want me to quit. They said they would love to see me stay
and everything, but I just had a little bit different things I wanted to do in my life.
Interviewer: “So you never saw baseball as a career?”
Oh no, I never did and like I said, it did a lot of good after I told Bob Knolls that I was
blind and he, and different ones, said that I have helped the kids through what I had said.
There were some kids that could come and they wouldn’t be made fun of. See, I use to
be called “four eyes’ all the time in grade school and that made me mad, so what I would
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�do, because I had to wear glasses—a lot of kids had to pass my home to school from
where I lived there was always a certain bunch you know. 59:10 It was “hello four
eyes”, and everything and when they got to my house I said, “I’ll be out in a minute”, and
I took off my glasses because I couldn’t afford to have them broke, and I would go out
and say, “now call me four eyes”, and we had a few fights and I won.
Interviewer: “Did you go to the first reunion, the All American Girls reunion?”
I probably did, but truthfully, I can’t remember.
Interviewer: “But you had some interest to want to see those girls again?”
Oh my gosh, yeah
Interviewer: “What changed? Was it just age? You were getting older and looking
back on that time? :03 If it was only four years of your life, and you certainly
accomplished a lot more afterwards, why would you be interested in getting back
together with these people?”
Because I had a good relationship with them and they treated me so good. They treated
me like a daughter instead of somebody just coming into the house.
Interviewer: “I mean with the teams. Going to the reunions with the teams.”
Well, I didn’t go to that many though.
Interviewer: “Did the movie change anything for you? You saw the movie?”
Well, I saw it and I thought it was pretty neat, that was my impression.
Interviewer: “How did you see it? Did you see it in a movie theater?”
I was picked up by what do you call it?
Interviewer: “A limousine?”
A limousine, yeah
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�Interviewer: “Who arranged for that?”
Evidently before it came out we were invited to the premier. 1:28
Interviewer: “Tell that story, tell that story, yeah.”
That was great and we were in a theater of some sort, I think it was a theater.
Interviewer: “Had you ever been in a limousine before?"
No
Interviewer: “Tell the story.”
I thought, “that can’t be me going in a limousine like that”, and then they were so great to
me, it was just marvelous, and I thought, “My goodness, what’s happening?” Everything
was just great and I think you have a picture of it there. 2:08
Interviewer: “So you arrive in a limousine at the theater and?”
Everything—there was a lot of talking going on and they were just good to me and let me
know that I was appreciated.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie? Did you like it?”
Yeah, it was pretty good, but Tom Hanks, he stretched it a little bit you know and I
wasn’t a stretcher.
Interviewer: “A lot of the girls say the movie changed everything and people
suddenly knew who you guys were.”
Yes it did and I was going to get to that and it made a really great name for all of us.
3:05 We were highly respected and of course when the boys came back from the war,
and they had been in for quite a while then, but that’s what broke it up, the boys coming
back.
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�Interviewer: “What do you think about all this excitement? You‟re being treated,
in many ways, like movie stars.”
Yes we were treated like movie stars.
Interviewer: “And you still are.”
Yes, it’s unbelievable to think that something like that could happen.
Interviewer: “why do you think there‟s all this excitement? You only played four
year, why do you think people get so excited about this?”
I don’t think the average person knew how well women could play, and they found out
there was a lot going on there, they can really play good. We would slide into bases, but
they didn’t want the pitcher to slide and get hurt, but that’s how I messed my knee up.
4:11 You have so much interest in the game that you don’t want to be out if you can
slide and be safe. Does that make sense to you?
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, one of the husbands of one of the players said he never
got an opportunity to see his wife play until much later and like you said, you
couldn‟t just go off and spend money going to see a baseball game, but he finally got
a chance to see her and he said he had known her, her whole life, but he never
realized she was such a good ball player.”
Yes
Interviewer: “So, I guess that‟s what the fans saw too, they saw a good baseball
game, and you guys were pretty good at what you did.”
We thought we were without being smart. I was never a bragger, but when they would
say, “boy, that was a great game”, I would say, “Thank you”, it was pretty good wasn’t
it?” 5:16
20
�Interviewer: “You went on to accomplish some major goals that you want to take
care of your mother, you wanted to gain security, but if you look back on your
whole life, where do those four years fit in? How important were they to you?”
I think they were very important to me because they gave me a start. Fifty bucks a week,
and the one manager we had, he said, and I never told this to people because I thought it
sounded like bragging, he said I should be making more than the fifty dollars that
everybody was making. He raised my pay every week, but I forget if it was seventy or
seventy-five dollars, so I don’t want to say it was seventy-five if it was seventy, but it
was one of the two definitely. 6:16 Oh my gosh, can you imagine getting that, that early
in life? To make that much? I called home and oh my, everybody was happy.
Interviewer: “one of the other questions that I have—the phenomenon that the
movie created, put you in a whole different position than you were before. You
were a ball player and now you‟re part of American history. I know you didn‟t
think about it at the time, but how do you reflect on it now? People are saying to
you that this is an important part of American history.”
Yes, well, my first impression was, “I can’t believe it, are they saying that you’re part of
history because of baseball?” At first I thought it had to be a dream and it’s super. 7:22
Interviewer: “It‟s kind of hard to think it‟s a dream when you come to these
reunions.”
My gosh, we are treated so great, it’s wonderful, but that’s what you think unless you’re a
big bragger.
Interviewer: “There‟s a big difference between bragging and just telling the truth
and that‟s what it really comes down to and that‟s why I‟m here. I‟m not asking
21
�you to brag, I just want you to tell what you did and if that sounds like bragging to
you, it‟s not bragging to me, I‟ll tell you that because you did it and there‟s proof.
We know what all of you accomplished.”
Yes
Interviewer: “One of the main reasons I decided to do this project was because I
saw some film footage of the Grand Rapids reunion in which a number of you were
signing autographs and there‟s a line of little girls with their mothers holding on to
them. What do you say to the little girls? What is the message you have for these
younger girls that you see at these reunions?” 8:22
My thought is to always do the best you can for everything and when you do the best you
can you will succeed. You might not be the best, but you won’t be the worst. I think that
explains it.
Interviewer: “There is something I want to talk about and it‟s major. It‟s
something that happened to you and I don‟t even know you and yet I believe this.
When that reporter came out and you revealed for the first time about your eye,
why did you decide, at that point, you wanted to tell people?” 9:13
Because I wanted to let him know that I didn’t let that interfere and that I didn’t just lay
down and forget about life and want people to be sorry for you. I never, never, never
wanted people to feel sorry for me because that would have killed me. So, I went on all
those years and when Bob Knoll put it in the Beacon Journal he said, “I’m telling you
right now Jane, you’re doing the biggest favor for kids to be able to make an adjustment”,
and it did, it did. I got an awful lot of publicity on that and the parents thought it was
22
�super great. It pleased me very much because I felt like I was a part of helping kids.
10:14
Interviewer: “How do your teammates, obviously you‟re not playing anymore, none
of them knew, right?”
No, none of my best friends and everything and when this all came out in the Beacon
Journal they said, “Jane, all the years we’ve known you and you never said anything”,
and I said, “well, what’s to say, I didn’t want anybody feeling sorry for me”, and I said,
“Can you imagine, all I had to do was make an error”, and you’re dead. That was about
it, I just didn’t want anybody to feel sorry for me and say, “oh well”, and to be extra nice
to me because I was that way. I guess that’s it. 11:04
Interviewer: ”How difficult was it playing with one eye?”
I never even considered it because I just went on and hoped to do the best I can. I’m not
a religious nut or anything, but I thank God so many times that I was allowed to just get
started and my big, big thrill was that kids who never had a chance at least get a chance,
and that did something to my whole body and I felt great.
Interviewer: “Now, if this is getting too personal you don‟t have to say anything,
but you said you took until you were forty-eight until you got married.”
Forty-nine
Interviewer: “Forty-nine, why this guy?”
I had my dry cleaning business going and I was golfing and this guy ended up, he use to
watch me golf, so he asked the guy that owns Tommy’s Café there in the falls who that
lady over there was and he said, “I know her, that’s Jane Badini”, and he said, “she has a
dry cleaning shop”, and he said that he would like to talk to me and take me out, so he
23
�came over to my shop and started bringing in his dry cleaning and laundry and
everything. 12:50 He started talking with me and I had talked with him a few times and
a friend of mine said, “Jane, he’s a nice guy and when you feel like it, he wants you to go
out with him”. I said, “thanks a lot”, so when he came in, and I don’t know how many
times he asked me out, so after I knew that he was a nice guy, he came in and said, “Will
you please go out on a date with me?” I said, “sure I will”, and we went out and we just
started going together and everything clicked and we got married.
Interviewer: “Wonderful, that‟s wonderful. I have one story that might top that
one. A very good friend of mine, who is a volunteer who works on this Library of
congress project and he‟s eighty years old now I think. He did the same thing, his
wife worked in a bakery and he came in and asked her out and she said, “no, no,
I‟m too busy”, so one day he came in with a used calendar and he said, “find one
day on here”, and they got married. 14:07
That’s great, that’s nice.
Interviewer: “They‟re still together and I love that story.”
Have you ever heard of Tommy’s Café years ago in Cuyahoga Falls?
Interviewer: “No”
He worked for Tommy and he was next to the younger Tommy and the next man in the
link.
Interviewer: “Did you tell him about your baseball career?”
No, oh no, I never did, I mean it took a long time because I never wanted anybody to
think I was bragging and I just was sincere about that. I didn’t want anybody to like me
because I was a ball player and if you’re going to like me, like me for who I am.
24
�Interviewer: “Well, I think you‟re real easy to like.”
Oh, thank you so much, I appreciate that.
Interviewer: “This was a wonderful, wonderful time with you and thank you.”
15:06
Thank you very much.
25
�26
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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RHC-58_JBadini
Title
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Badini, Jane Jacobs (Interview transcript and video, 2010)
Creator
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Badini, Jane Jacobs
Description
An account of the resource
Jane Jacobs Badini was born in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, in 1924. She grew up playing softball, first with her brothers, and later with organized teams. She was a talented pitcher, and one of the players recruited by the AAGPBL when it was formed in 1943. She played in the league for four years, primarily with Racine, before leaving and starting her own business.
The audio on this recording has significant noise interference.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Illinois
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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mp4
pdf
Coverage
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World War II
Source
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<a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-05
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce860846beff3ebbe53d4a60fe0b3471.m4v
48bf5617fbbff45352ca9b541e3a8b13
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e88e66c80c051d0b04a2df4f41026af7.pdf
39631be6f5556f7b91ed66ab656b3663
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Shirley Burkovich
Length of Interview: (00:41:38)
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD., Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer February 8, 2010
Interviewer: “Shirley, can you start by telling us a little bit about your background,
where and when you were born?”
I was born in Pittsburg, PA and raised in a town just east of Pittsburg, Swissvale, went to
school there and graduated from there.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?”
My mom was a housewife and my dad worked in the steel mills.
Interviewer: “You were born in the early thirties---did your father keep his job in
the steel mills as you were growing up?”
Yes, he worked there all the time. 1:57
Interviewer: “The town that you were actually in, was it an industrial town, a
smaller one?”
A small town just outside of Pittsburg, a suburb of the city.
Interviewer: “When did you start playing ball?”
I started playing ball, I guess, as long as I can remember. When I was small, we had a
large back yard and that’s how I started, by hitting the ball up against the house, doing it
that way and then I graduated to the vacant lots and the streets and alleys of the city.
2:31
Interviewer: “Whom did you play with?”
Well, as you know, at that time there were no girl’s leagues or organizations, so you just
went out and picked up a bat and a glove and you went to a vacant lot and you picked up
with the boys. It was always the boys.
Interviewer: “There weren’t any other girls that would play?”
Not in my area, there were a couple girls that lived in an adjacent town that played, but in
my city there was just me.
Interviewer: “Did you have brothers that played?”
1
�I had a brother and he did play ball. He played in high school and then he played softball
on men’s fast softball, so I kind of hung around with them as the “bat girl”. 3:21 They
used me to shag fly balls because then they could stand up there and bat all day. I was
the shagging of the fly balls and ten at the end of their session; I got a chance to hit.
Interviewer: “So you got reasonable practice at a variety of different things?”
A lot of practice.
Interviewer: “Now, did you do sports in high school?”
No sports in high school, at least not for the girls. 3:44 I didn’t really do anything, we
got to use the gym during our lunch hour because that’s when the boys didn’t use it, so
the girls would go on there and play basketball.
Interviewer: “The school didn’t have girls teams at all?”
The school did not have girls teams.
Interviewer: “How did you first hear about women in baseball?”
My brother is the one that actually heard about it, not heard about it, but read about it. He
read about it in the newspaper that they were holding tryouts for the “All American girls
Professional Baseball League” and he came to me and he said, “hey, what do you think
about this? They’re holding tryouts for a baseball league.” And oh gosh, I said, “I don’t
know”, I was sixteen years old and I said, “I don’t know if I’m good enough to play.”
4:35 He said, “Well, let’s go down and see”, so he took the day off of work and we went
down to the park where they were holding the tryouts and we sat in the stands and the
two of us kind of critiqued the girls playing and he said, “what do you think?” I said,
“well, I think I’ll give it a try” and he said, “good”, so I went down and had the tryout
and a couple of weeks later I got a telegram to report to spring training in Cape
Girardeau, Missouri. 5:11
Interviewer: “What did they have you do in the tryouts?”
For the tryouts, it was hit, run, throw, things like that, just an overall example of what you
were capable of I’m assuming. How fast you ran, how well you threw, how your batting
was.
Interviewer: “How long did they spend on you?”
We were there for a couple of days because there were a lot of girls there. I would say
that there were over a hundred girls at the tryout. Most of them were from the Pittsburg
area, but we did have some girls that came from out of state—West Virginia, Ohio,
adjoining states, so we had a big turnout. It was a couple—if I remember, it was a twoday tryout. 6:07
Interviewer: “When exactly was this?”
2
�This was in 1948, late “48” in the late summer of “48” and then I didn’t actually report
for spring training until April of “49”, the next year.
Interviewer: “Were you in high school at that time?”
I was still in school and actually, when I got the telegram to go, that’s school time, so my
mom went to the school and we talked to the principle and explained the situation and
asked if it would be possible for me to leave school, because it was two months, April
and May, because school was out in June, so April and May. He looked at my grades and
he said, “ok”, but that they would have to send the lessons along with me and I would
have to complete those lessons back for those two months, which I was willing to do for
that opportunity. 7:28 Then my mom, she said, “now wait a minute, I don’t know about
this All American Girls Baseball League, I never heard of that”, and here I’m going out
of state down to some Cape Girardeau in Missouri which we never heard of and she said,
“I don’t know if I just want to let you go by yourself”. My dad was working, my brother
was working, so she bought a ticket and went on the train with me and we went down to
Cape Girardeau and she met the chaperone and met the manager and everything and she
stayed for two days and saw that everything was on the up and up and that they weren’t
taking me down to some place that she didn’t think was proper. 8:20 Then she left, left
me there and actually the chaperone was Helen Campbell, who you were going to
interview in California maybe.
Interviewer: “I would like to be able to.”
It would be wonderful if you could.
Interviewer: “We have interviewed quite a few members of the league at this point
and may of them were very young when they first signed up, high school age. I
think you are about the first one that had a parent enterprising enough to go along
and check it all out first. 8:56 Were you, at this point, assigned to a specific team
or were you going to a general spring training where they would assign you?”
I just went to a general training and then I was assigned to the “Muskegon Lassies”.
Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about the spring training itself. Do you have any
idea why they were in Cape Girardeau?”
No, that is what the telegram said, so that’s where I went. 9:22
Interviewer: “It may have been less expensive than Florida. What was the weather
like when you were there?”
It was nice as I remember. It was—I don’t remember unusual weather.
Interviewer: “It might have been better than Pittsburg anyway.”
Probably.
Interviewer: “What did they have you do there, at spring training?”
3
�Training, It’s like most spring trainings, I would think, we had practice everyday, betting
practice, fielding practice, they put you in different positions to how you worked in
outfield, infield, batting things like that, running the bases, sliding, just general things and
as we went along we had coaches, managers that would critique our performances I’m
sure, because they would come up to you and say, “ok now, maybe if you held the bat a
little bit this way”, or did this or did that or fielding, they hit you a hundred ground ball or
something to see how your arm was. 10:39
Interviewer: “What did you think of the quality of the players you were seeing
there?”
They were better players than what I was playing against when I was playing in vacant
lots and even the boys and that’s whom I was playing against. These girls were good, no
question about it. I realized that I was in touch competition and if I was going to make
this team, I was going to have to perform. 11:06
Interviewer: “Did you feel you sort of had to work harder than some of them or
were they all working pretty hard?”
I think everybody was working hard and I think all the girls were dedicated. We had a
strong passion for the game, everybody was trying to do their best, trying to make the
team and it was a very competitive spring training. You could see everyone you were
playing against –you knew what you had to compete against and what you had to beat.
11:45
Interviewer: “What proportion of the people trying out actually made it onto the
teams?”
That I don’t remember how many out of that group that went to spring training. I know
we all separated and I went to Muskegon and some of the other girls went to different
teams and I don’t know who didn’t make it or was cut, but I’m sure some of them were
because I was told that this was like another tryout. It was spring training, but it was
another tryout. 12.23
Interviewer: “The movie version of things, at least in that first season, they had
scene where people get to see names up on a board of who makes it and who doesn’t.
You didn’t see anything like that?”
I didn’t see anything like that.
Interviewer: “How did you find out where you were assigned?”
They just came to you and told you that you were assigned to the Muskegon lassie team
and they gave you a ticket to Muskegon and you got on the train and you went.
Interviewer: “Had you ever heard of Muskegon, Michigan before?”
Nope.
4
�Interviewer: “What impression did you have of the place when you got there?”
Well, like I said, this was the first time that I had actually been away from home by
myself and it was an experience for me at sixteen years old.
A lot of new friends, new people, so it was an experience for me. 13:14
Interviewer: “Where did they put you up once you got there?”
When I got to Muskegon, I met the chaperone who was Helen, and the chaperone
assigned the girls to host homes and there were two of us to a home and we roomed
together, so she had a place set up for each of us.
Interviewer: “Was it a nice place to stay? Did they treat you well?”
Oh, the people were wonderful, I tell you, they couldn’t have been nicer, it was almost
like being at home. 14:00 They took care of us, they made sure we had—I remember
when we came home from road trips there would be a note on the table telling us there
were sandwiches in the refrigerator and for us to help ourselves. They were just so nice
and they came to the games and supported us and it was just very homey, if we needed
anything—that type of thing. 14:25
Interviewer: “Did you stay with Muskegon for that whole season?”
Yes, I stayed with Muskegon for the whole 1949 season and then after that season, they
asked—they didn’t ask, they told you who you go to and I went on a touring team, which
was the Springfield Sally’s and the Chicago Colleens that toured the United States, the
eastern part of the United States. 14:54 The two teams toured together and we traveled
into the east.
Interviewer: “I’ll get into the barnstorming, but I want to go back to Muskegon in
the meantime. What kind of ball park facility did you have there to play in?”
Well, it was a nice stadium. The only thing I remember about it is from the dugouts back
to the club house, you went under the stands and I can remember, I was a little bit taller
than most girls, so I had to stoop going under the stands, I remember that, but it was a
nice ball park.
Interviewer: “What were the stands like? Were they open bleachers and could
people throw things down on you when you went by?”
Oh no, we were under the stands. 15:51 It was under the stands.
Interviewer: “At that point how many different teams were you playing? Were
there five or six in the league at that time or was it bigger?”
Let’s see—I think there were eight teams at that time, in the league.
Interviewer: “Now, how well did Muskegon do that year?”
5
�We didn’t do well. As I remember. I don’t remember exactly, but I know we weren’t in
the championship series. We weren’t in the championship game. 16:25
Interviewer: “Now when you were playing, what position or positions would you
play?”
I was, I guess you call it, a utility player. I played infield, I played the outfield, so I kind
of filled a hole somewhere. Whenever someone wanted to sit down or someone was hurt
or whatever, I played that, so I played right field, left field, center field and I played all
the infield positions. Played first base, second base.
Interviewer: “Did you ever try pitching?”
I didn’t remember pitching, but my last year in Rockford, I noticed in one of the stats that
it said that I pitched one game. I think it was a no decision and it was just a few innings,
so it must have been one of those games that were runaways and they just put me in, but
in the league, anybody that could throw hard, they had them on the mound to see. Of
course, some of didn’t have the control, we threw hard, but we didn’t have the control
and that maybe we threw hard, but we didn’t have the control. 17:34
Interviewer: “Did you have a favorite position of the ones you took?”
You know I really didn’t, I was just so happy to have the opportunity to play. I didn’t
care where I played, just put me on.
Interviewer: “ In that first season, how regularly did you play?”
I played, I thought, pretty regularly. I was in and out of the lineup, some games I didn’t,
if no one was out or hurt, I didn’t play, but I got into a few games.
Interviewer: “How many position players would they normally have on one of these
teams?”
Well, we carried eighteen players I think, on the roster.
Interviewer: “All players including the pitchers?”
Yes, the regular roster was about eighteen players.
Interviewer: “Then you would have a regular opportunity to get in there.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Did they do much in the way of pinch hitting or pinch running or
relieving people for defensive reasons and that kind of stuff? Were the
replacements made during the game?”
Oh yes, like you said, pinch hitting and pinch runners and things like that. Position
changes 18:44
Interviewer: “How good of a hitter were you?”
6
�Well, you know, I wasn’t a homerun hitter, I wasn’t a power hitter, I was more of a
singles hitter, more of a hit and run. I got a lot of run signs. I got a lot of sacrifice signs.
Move the runner along, hit to right, move a runner from second to third, that type of
hitting.
Interviewer: “Did you strike out much?”
I don’t know, I probably had my share.
Interviewer: “If you’re a good bat handler then you’re getting---“
I was pretty good at bunting; I was able to lay down a pretty fair and decent bunt I think.
19:33 Like I said, I was more of a placement—placing the ball rather than a homerun
hitter or a power hitter.
Interviewer: “Now, at the time you came into the league, how strict were they at
enforcing all the rules that they had come up with at the start?”
Well, as far as strictness in enforcing the rules, if you played for Helen, you followed the
rules. She ran a tight ship. Coming out of the marines, as a sergeant in the marines, she
was pretty strict with us and especially the teenagers and those of us that were teenagers.
The older girls, she probably wasn’t as strict with and that, but those of us that were
teenagers, she kept a pretty good watch on us. 20:32 I remember one time—we were
allowed to go out if some of the fans or someone would ask us out for dinner or
whatever. This young fellow asked me if he could take me out to dinner and I said to
him, “you will have to ask the chaperone”, because us teenagers had to ask permission
and he said, “that’s fine, that’s not a problem”, so I told Helen that we were going to go,
so he went in and talked to Helen and he came out and he was smiling and he said to me,
“I didn’t want to marry you, I just wanted to take you out to dinner”, so I think she gave
him the third degree. That’s just some of way it was. 21:30
Interviewer: “Did he, in fact, take you out at that point?”
Oh yes.
Interviewer: “Good, she didn’t scare him away completely then?”
Oh no, but it was a funny situation.
Interviewer: “Now, were you traveling around by bus at that point on your road
trips?”
Yes, by bus.
Interviewer: “What was that experience like?”
The buses were really nice. Some people use to say, “how did you do it? Those long bus
rides and all?” You know, when you’re sixteen years old and you’re doing something
you like to do, that was the least of my concerns, the bus ride. It was fun, it was a lot of
camaraderie with the girls, we had good times, we had a lot of laughs, it was a joking
time and just a lot of fun, so I never minded the bus rides. 22:23
7
�Interviewer: “I guess that was a good thing because you wound up in the barn
storming thing the next year. Tell us a little bit about how that worked and what
that was like.”
Ok, that, we would go into a city for usually a three game series and would play three
games in that city and after that we would move on to another etc. That was strictly
living out of a suitcase for those months. Doing your laundry in the hotel Laundromat
and things like that. We would stay at motels and places like that and then the bus ride
and so that was, like I say, more living out of a suitcase than when you were on a team
like Muskegon where you were home and then on the road. 23:16
Interviewer: “If you had to pick, which one would you like better?”
It didn’t matter to me, I was playing baseball that was my passion, that’s what I love to
do and either one of those worked fine for me.
Interviewer: “How far a field did you travel when you were on this barnstorming
tour?”
We traveled through the eastern part of the United States mostly, it was just a month or
two before the season ended, I broke my ankle, so that ended my season there, but it was
mostly the eastern part of the United States, through Ohio, Maryland, West Virginia,
Pennsylvania, places like that. 24:09
Interviewer: “Did you go farther south? Did you go down to Florida or over to
Louisiana or places like that?”
No, we were more in the eastern, kind of mid Atlantic area.
Interviewer. “I guess there were two seasons where those teams went around on a
barnstorming tour. Yours was the second one.”
Right, the first one in 1949. I was not on, but I on in 1950.
Interviewer: “Did you make it up as far as New York city when you were doing
that?”
That’s what I was just going to say, that about a month or so before we got there, I broke
my ankle and I missed playing in Yankee Stadium, they played in Yankee Stadium and I
missed that. 24:57
Interviewer: “Did you go to some big cities when you were on this tour or mostly
small ones?”
They were mostly small ones, all small cities.
Interviewer: “What kind of crowds did you get when you went to these places?”
We got good crowds. Attendance wise, I don’t know, a thousand, tow thousand, but we
had good crowds. We drew very well, we were advertised, you know it was advertised,
8
�and we did radio interviews and things like that, so you know, they knew we were there
and I think too it was maybe a curiosity thing where people just came out to see if we
could really play ball. 25:43
Interviewer: Did you do a lot of publicity things of different kinds? Were you
interviewed on the radio yourself?”
Yes, they use to interview us that was part of our job, to promote the league and so yes,
we did radio interviews, newspaper interviews, because they would have pictures in the
paper and they would have advertisements in the paper, so yes, we did a lot of PR stuff.
26:13
Interviewer: “You said you broke your ankle, now how did you break your ankle?”
It was a—it rained that day and we played that evening. Of course the field was covered,
the infield was covered, but the grass was wet and because of our bases, which were
shorter than the ninety-foot men’s bases, it brought the bases just to the edge of the grass
of the infield. I was sliding into third base and the grass was wet and my spike caught in
the grass and I slid and you know that wet grass wrapped around that spike and my foot
stopped, but I went. 27:02
Interviewer: “Now, once that happened, did they send you home?”
Yes, I was in the hospital for a couple of days while they set the ankle and then I went on
home.
Interviewer: “Had you gone home between those seasons? Did you go home on the
off-season?
Oh, yes, but during the season, no.
Interviewer: “So, the ankle heals eventually, did you back in then for another
year?”
The next year in 1951, I went back and I was assigned to Rockford, the peaches. I spent
my last season with Rockford.
Interviewer: “Was that a better team than the Muskegon team?”
Well, they were—Rockford was kind of the crème of the crop, if you want to say, but
they were a good team, yes. That was a great experience, I played with some great ball
players on that team, but that Muskegon team, I don’t want to downgrade them because,
listen, all the girls that played in that league were terrific, just wonderful, they had to be
the best ball players that we had in the states. 28:25
Interviewer: “Sure, anybody on any major league baseball team today is going to
play a whole lot better than me, even when I was a lot younger. “Who were some of
the best players that you played alongside?”
9
�Oh gosh, Dotty Kavichek, Shorty Prior, Doris Sams, Mickey McGuire, Jean Fout, just
like I say, you could just go on and on with these girls, they were just good ball players.
28:58
Interviewer: “now, when you were with Rockford, did Rockford make the playoffs
that year?”
I can’t remember if we made the playoffs.
Interviewer: “I think South Band won the championship that year.”
I think south Bend, but I don’t think Rockford made the playoffs that year. I don’t know,
maybe I was a jink to them. The teams that I played for, we never made the playoffs.
Interviewer: “Now, in Rockford, when you were living there, did you have the same
kind of a set-up as you had in Muskegon?”
Same set-up as Muskegon. We lived in host homes and had a roommate and played, but
the people in Rockford, again just like Muskegon; the people were just wonderful to us,
just wonderful. 29:48
Interviewer: “Did you have a chaperone as tough as the first one?”
No, no, I don’t think there was anyone like Helen. Helen had to be the—I only had three
chaperones, the ones from the touring team and Helen and then Dotty Green in Rockford,
but Helen had to be my favorite, my favorite.
Interviewer: “In general, how well did you adjust to the rules and the expectations
of the league? Was it fairly natural for you did you or not?”
Well, adapting to them was easy because I didn’t want to do anything wrong, anything to
get me off the team and you know, some of the girls would miss curfew and things like
that, but there was no way that I was ever going to do that. I wasn’t ever going to do
anything that would jeopardize my chance to play baseball, so I followed the rules to the
letter. 30:54
Interviewer: “You were probably happy that you had somebody that was very clear
about what the rules were?”
Yes, probably.
Interviewer: “Now you only played in the league for three years, was it your own
choice not to come back for 1952?”
Yes, in 1951, I could see that the league was not going to last. Things were—the crowds
were not as good and a lot of the teams were in financial trouble and I had an opportunity
to get a job at that time and I had to decide between that opportunity to take that job or go
back for maybe another one season or maybe two, I didn’t know how long it was going to
last and so I thought, well, I think I better set myself up for job that I had a little security.
32:04
10
�Interviewer: “What job did you take?”
I had a chance to go to work for the telephone company and I went down and interviewed
for the telephone company and got the position and went to work for the telephone
company. I spent thirty years with them and retired in 1983. It probably was the best
decision that I made.
Interviewer “Now where were you working for the telephone company?”
In California. I got time—after the 1951 season, I finished the 1951 season, I came to
California and I spent the next year just kind of getting my priorities together—what am I
going to do? In 1953 I took a job with the telephone company and stayed on with them.
33:03
Interviewer: “What prompted you to go to California in the first place?”
I had family out there. My brothers and sister were living out there at the time and I liked
it. I had been out there in 1948 for a vacation and I liked it and so when I finished
playing ball I thought, “I think I’ll go back to California”.
Interviewer: “during the time that you were actually playing, did you have any
kind of sense that you were doing something kind of unusual or significant that
women were out there doing this sort of thing or were you just focused on playing
the game?
Playing the game. You know when we—when I first went into the league, I thought that
this had to be the greatest thing that ever happened to me and I didn’t care about anything
except playing and having that opportunity, so as far as thinking to myself that this is
something special, I never did. In fact until the day left the league, I never thought it
was anything special, I didn’t see any need to talk about it or tell anybody. 34:24
Someone would say, “you played baseball”, well, some people say, ‘who cares”, and
most people thought it was softball and everything, so it was just never anything that was
brought up in conversations or whatever, so it just went by the wayside as something you
did, it was over with and even though it was something that I thought was going to be my
career. I was sixteen years old and I thought I could play until I was thirty-five or forty
and thought it was my career. I planned on nothing else, I didn’t go on to college, didn’t
do anything and I thought that it was my career and when I quit, I thought “that was it, I
did it and it’s done”. 35:17
Interviewer: “After that you go to work and what kind of work did you do for the
phone company?”
I started out as an operator and then my last year, and I went through several departments,
and ended up in the engineering department when I retired.
Interviewer: “You got a career for yourself and you’re out in California, which is a
somewhat kind of progressive place, and you go into the sixties and the seventies,
you got a women’s movement going and the push for things like Title Nine and all
kinds of stuff going on, were you paying much attention to any of that, or were you
11
�thinking of how the women’s baseball league related to that or were you not putting
those pieces together at that time?” 36:00
We started working with other ex-major league ball player on free clinics for girls and
boys. The clinics use to be strictly for the boys and then we started going out and saying
in these clinics, “girls and boys”, and there was a group of us, some ex-dodgers and exAngels that they put together this group called “Sports Educators of America”, and we
went out, this was just in the Southern California area, and we would go out and do these
free baseball clinics for the kids and we would try to incorporate education and sports.
Telling the kids that education is just as important because you ask the kids, “who wants
to be a major league ball player?” Well, everybody raises their hand, so then you say to
then, “well, all right, there are 700 positions in major league baseball, what if you don’t
make it, then what?” so we tell them that they’ve got to have something to fall back on,
so we start stressing education in sports to these kids trying to encourage them to stay in
school and have a back-up just in case they don’t make it in the baseball world. 37:27 I
can always relate to that because that’s what happened to me. I thought baseball was
always going to be my career and I didn’t plan for anything else. Fortunately, I got a job
at the telephone company and at that time the companies were more like families. They
weren’t like they are today where your just a number. The telephone company was like a
family, so I had the opportunity to work for them, but to now days not have a back-up, so
that’s what we have been doing now for the last ten or fifteen years, going out to these
clinics and working with young people. 38:19
Interviewer: “How did you wind up hooking up with the men players, but I guess
this is something that maybe happened after the movie “A League of Their Own”
came out?
Right.
Interviewer: “How important was the movie in terms of drawing attention to that
past or having you revisit it or think about it again?”
The movie was everything. Had it not been for the movie we would have still been
obscure. The Cooperstown, that to the ball players, that Cooperstown event was, as far as
I’m concerned, was the most important thing, to be recognized by the Hall of Fame
men’s organization and to be recognized by them in their facility. It was the greatest
thing that ever could have happened to us. 39:19 That was just ball players that had
that, but when the movie came out, that brought it out to the public, brought it out to the
world and that’s what brought us out to the public eye. If it hadn’t been for Penny
Marshal and that movie, we would have known what we thought with the hall of Fame,
but the public would not have known, so yes, the movie was everything.
Interviewer: “What do you think you took out of that experience of playing
professional ball? Did it change you?”
12
�Not only did it change me, but I learned so much about team work, camaraderie, trust in
people, it was just a wonderful experience and I don’t think I could have gotten that from
any other profession that I would have gotten into like I got from that league. 40:33
Interviewer “I’m not sure how you really could in exactly the same way. There
wasn’t anything else like it and for a very long time after. We now have the WNBA
etc., but that’s much more modeled along the way these modern media oriented
teams and things are done. The kind of experience and the closeness that you had as
a group and that sort of thing may be something that didn’t really repeat it’s self in
other places.
I don’t think so. I got so much satisfaction out of the league and we still, as you see, we
still have friendships that have lasted for sixty years. 42:21
Interviewer: “What was it like coming to the reunions and getting involved with
this group and seeing people that maybe you had played with or trained with and
after all those years, there they were again?
My first reunion was—they started earlier in Chicago and I never went to any of those
because I was in California and I just never went, but in 1988 they had a reunion in
Scottsdale Arizona and that was kind of right next door, so I thought it was a good
opportunity for me to go over to Arizona and just—well, I haven’t missed one since and
it has just been such a wonderful experience. 42:08 The first time , that was the first
time seeing these gals after, at that time, forty years and just the expressions on our faces
when we met each other and saw each other for the first time, I just can’t explain it, how
it was.
Interviewer: “It sounds like it was a remarkable experience on the whole and you
tell your story well, so thank you for coming in.
You’re welcome. 42:38
13
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_SBurkovich
Title
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Burkovich, Shirley (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Burkovich, Shirley
Description
An account of the resource
Shirley Burkovich was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. She played softball with the neighborhood boys and her brother throughout her childhood. She first heard about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League one day when she was reading the newspaper. Her brother took her down to where they were holding tryouts; she tried out and afterwards was told to report to Cape Giradeau, Missouri for spring training. She played with the Springfield Sallies during the 1950 softball season and then was traded to the Rockford Peaches where she played out the 1951 season there. During her time in the league, her fondest memory is hitting the game-ending single to center field in 12-inning game. While with the league she played utility infield and utility outfield.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-26
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5752a0125b812e8ce999b065608493ea.m4v
f158fd332a1df13fd393b25e25800d9a
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d8abc97da500f74b820aa52075355b3a.pdf
12163b5a7930c412c229649813d6257b
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Jean Cione
Interviewed by: Gordon Olson September 27, 2009 Milwaukee, WI at the annual alumni
reunion of the All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer March 4, 2010
Interviewer: Give me a little bit of background if you will. When and where were
you born, your parents names and a little of that sort of information.”
I was born in Rockford, Illinois in 1928 and my parents were Vi and John and I went to
school at a county school for eight grades in Rockford, Illinois. :53
Interviewer: Were all eight grades together at county?”
Yes, oh no, no.
Interviewer: “Then it wasn’t a small country school?”
It wasn’t that small. And I was, as everybody was in those days, an outdoor “tomboy”.
Interviewer: “Which means that you started playing ball as a little kid?”
I started playing ball as a little kid. I played catch with the guy next door who turned out
to be a neurourgeon and my mother thought that that thing that was hanging from my
right hand was part of my anatomy because that’s how often it was there. 1:39
Interviewer: “That was your glove?”
That was my glove.
Interviewer: “And it went everywhere with you?”
It did
Interviewer: “You’re a natural left hander and they didn’t try to change you? A lot
of people our age, young people if they were left handed, and they would try to make
them switch to right handed writing and that sort of thing.”
Well, I’m kind of ambidextrous. I batted right, I threw left, I write right, I iron both
ways, whatever’s handy really. 2:13
Interviewer: “If you’re going to throw, it’s better to throw left handed because
there’s more demand for left handed pitchers.”
There are fewer of us; I guess that’s probably why.
Interviewer: “what are your recollections, before there was a league, of playing
ball? Where did you play and how did you develop as a ball player?”
1
�Well, I played neighborhood ball with the boys. When I was in the eighth grade I played
first base on the boys softball team and since it was a county school we competed with
other county schools and I earned a letter at that county school. I of course went to junior
high school in the city and there was no opportunity for women back then and so I played
in an industrial team league and on industrial league teams. Now, Rockford, Illinois was
the largest machine tool center in the world and the town was full of factories of all kinds.
3:33 They made huge machines and sent them overseas and so forth. Well, each of
those industrial corporations had a men’s baseball team and a women’s softball team.
This was a large city. The second largest city in Illinois at that time and so I played then
in the industrial teams. 4:03
Interviewer: “So there were sports opportunities for women in Rockford?”
There were, definitely. Rockford had a wonderfully developed park system, the
University of Illinois at Champaign Urbana came up and set it up and Rockford was half
Swede and half Canadian with a few Polish and Irish thrown in there, but they put their
money in their city, so there were really opportunities for children. 4:34
Interviewer: “You said that you got a letter for playing on the eighth grade team at
the county school. How unusual was it for girls to be on the school team like that?”
Well, at the luncheon today, they talked about the first and I was the first.
Interviewer: “That makes it unusual. In high school were there any sports you
could play in high school?”
They called it GAA, girls athletic association and we played among ourselves and if we
did have opportunities to play with girls from other schools, with mitts. 5:24
Interviewer: “That’s right, there was a sense that girls shouldn’t be—not only that
girls weren’t so competitive, but they shouldn’t be so competitive.”
Absolutely, and in those days girls were short and supposed to be short as opposed to
now, they step out and they are tall. 5:50
Interviewer: “They’ve been feeding them real well lately. You were playing in the
industrial league when you learned about the opportunity to play women’s
baseball?”
Well, I was born and went to public school in Rockford, Illinois and the “Rockford
Peaches” came into Rockford, Illinois and established Rockford as their home team in
1943 and I was fifteen at the time. 6:19
Interviewer: “Still in high school?”
Yes, still in high school and my dad of course, who was my very best friend, took me to
the ball games and I would say, “Dad, I’m going to play some day”.
2
�Interviewer: “Had he supported you as a ball player? Did you learn any baseball
from him?”
No.
Interviewer: “He was just a fan?”
Yes, he was just a fan. I didn’t learn it from him, but yes, he supported me and my
mother supported me too because it was two against one, my dad and I.
Interviewer: “She might as well go along with it.”
Yes, she might as well go along with it.
Interviewer: “Are there other brothers and sisters in your family?”
I do have a sister, but she’s fourteen years younger. After they had me they had to wait a
long time before having another one. 7:14
Interviewer: “Even if she had been a ball player there wouldn’t have been an
opportunity like you had for her would there?”
No there wasn’t, and we were very, very fortunate. We were just lucky.
Interviewer: “So, the Rockford Peaches come to town and you see some games and
you decide, “I’m going to do that”. How did you go about accomplishing that?”
7:37
Well, they held a tryout a couple of years later and I was seventeen at that time and Max
Carey came into town and he held a tryout and I was invited to spring training. I could
throw, I could hit, I could run. The finer points of the game probably weren’t very
evident, but he saw something there that might be developed.
Interviewer: “At that point did you have a sense of yourself as a pitcher at all yet?”
No.
Interviewer: “That’s coming yet. When you first learned of it—Max Carey comes
to town—did you have an understanding of why they were doing it? You knew
there was a war going on, but did you connect the women of the baseball with the
war or anything like that?” 8:36
No.
Interviewer: “That’s going to come, along with other things. So the tryout is
complete and he likes what he sees, then what happens?”
I went to spring training, it was held in Chicago, we stayed at the Allerton Hotel and
worked out in one of the big Chicago parks and I made the cut. Probably I made the cut
and went with the Rockford team because I was a Rockford girl and there’s some draw in
terms of people coming to the ball game to see me. I was very, very fortunate to play
under the manager who I consider the best manager who ever managed in the league, Bill
Allington from Van Nuys, California and he loved the game you could tell and he was a
3
�good manager. 9:43 All of us bench sitters and rookies had the opportunity to work out
every day we were home. The regulars didn’t because we played every day on a ten
game schedule. From him I learned how to fly, the finer points of the strategy of the
game. He sat us next to him on the bench and made sure we understood the game, all the
cutoff plays, all the finer points of the game so, I was able to survive. 10:28
Interviewer: “You had time to do hitting every day?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “At what point does pitching become part of baseball?”
Well, the league was managed more as a league opposed to individual teams and they
realized that they had to keep competition close in order to make it interesting for the
public so, they had what they called an allocation system and each team could protect x
number of players and the rest of us were put into a pool and I went to Peoria and was
their regular first baseman for a year. They didn’t protect me; they threw me into the
pool “Pop Murphy” from Racine picked me up. 11:43 We had spring training in
Havana Cuba that year and he picked me up and we toured up through Florida along the
Atlantic coast with those particular teams all the way up and he worked with me because
he thought maybe I could pitch—he saw something.
Interviewer: “He saw a fastball I bet.”
I don’t know what he saw, but I appreciated him very much. Those were exhibition game
with two teams would travel up together.
Interviewer: “Do you remember what the other team was?”
No I don’t. I remember going into my first exhibition ball game and striking out Jo
Leonard, who became a very good friend of mine and who I played with much later on,
but I pitched, he threw me in the games, all the way up to Racine and the season started.
12:56 Rockford had some injuries as they came up through their particular area where
they toured and Bill—Racine had won the championship the year before and Bill
Allington asked the league if he could get some help until his pitching crew got back into
physical shape and could play again, so Murphy thought that was a good idea and they
could make mistakes on Bill’s team, so I went to Rockford and I didn’t make too many
mistakes and Murphy wanted me back and I guess there was quite a discussion over a
period of time and in order to keep both managers happy they gave me to Kenosha.
13:52 I was with Kenosha for the rest of my career.
Interviewer: “You stayed in the same general vicinity, but you didn’t get to go
home again.”
No.
Interviewer: “I’ve got a couple questions I want to ask you and it suddenly
occurred to me, I haven’t asked this of other. The make-up of the team that you
4
�play on—you said he needed pitching, how many, do you remember how many were
on the team? There were some bench sitters.”
Yes there were. They carried at least four or five pitchers and nine and five is fourteen
and I think the rosters were seventeen or eighteen players. 14:36
Interviewer: “That’s not many players, particularly if you’re playing every day and
somebody is going to be a little “gimpy” once in a while. That’s not a “deep bench”
as they say.”
That’s probably why Bill took the rookies and those that sat on the bench and worked
with them because we had to go in at times.
Interviewer: “You had to be ready or about as ready as he could get you. The other
thing I wanted to back up to—you said you went to Cuba and came back; do you
have recollection of that time in Cuba and spring training in Cuba?” 15:13
I certainly do.
Interviewer: “Share them with me please.”
There was music twenty-four hours a day in Cuba and it was just wonderful. Music is
something that’s very important to me and I loved it. We were taken to eat at one of the
hotels all the time and the food was terrible, so most of us ate at “Sloppy Joe’s”, the bar
between our hotel and the hotel where they fed us.
Interviewer: “We shouldn’t assume you were in Havana, rather than assuming, the
people listening later will know that the spring training took place in Havana. All
the teams were there?” 15:59
All the teams were there, yes they were. We trained at the University of Havana’s
facilities, huge facilities.
Interviewer: “The Cubans love their baseball.”
Yes they do and they came out in great numbers for the exhibition games and they were
around to watch us train also.
Interviewer: “Did they seem to appreciate the level of the baseball that you
played?”
Yes they did, we heard nothing negative and so you assumed that they accepted you.
Interviewer: “I have also been told that the Cuban men were particularly
impressed by the fact that these were young women out there playing. Is there any
truth to that?” 16:44
Yes they were. Of course the Cuban men are very sexy, very sexy, you would have to
just really be careful.
5
�Interviewer: “I’ve seen a couple of great pictures of a group watching practice. A
group of young men up in the stands watching practice and waiting, I think, for the
first moment that practice was over, so they could get better acquainted.”
They were and after practice we generally showered—we went back to the hotel and
showered and changed clothes and we hired a taxi and he would come and pick us up and
take us all over Havana and make sure if we got thirsty we would have a “cervesa” (for
the non Spanish speakers, “a beer”) and we saw a tremendous amount of the poor and the
rich in Cuba. 17:56
Interviewer: “This is out of context with the story of your baseball career, but it’s
an interesting topic. Your horizons were significantly broadened by the travel
opportunities that came with being a baseball player.”
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Not only just in terms of seeing places, but seeing other people and
other culture and maybe parts of –the poor as well as those better off and just a
better understanding of humanity in a sense.”
That’s right and appreciated it.
Interviewer: “It carried over later in your life?”
It did, I think it did.
Interviewer: “We may get back to that later and think about that a little bit more,
so this is 1947 and you could throw hard, but the world is full of people who can
throw hard, but they can’t hit what they’re throwing at.” 19:02
I have a funny story to tell you about that. Inez Voyce, she was a left-handed first
baseman.
Interviewer: “For the Grand Rapids “Chicks” among others.”
And South Bend, the South Bend “Blue Sox” and somehow or other she trained, she was
trained with us at our particular area of the ball park and Bill Allington came over to us,
the two of us, and he said, “you two, I want you to go out there in left field and play catch
until you can throw the ball where you’re aiming, you just get out there and work on it”,
and I never ever forgot that. Inez and I share that story together. 20:00
Interviewer: “And it worked.”
It worked, yes.
Interviewer: “Before we move on from Bill Allington, if someone were to say to you,
“I want a short capsule description of him and his personality, behavior--why was
he so good?”
6
�I can only give you from my perspective. He was so good number one, because he really
cared for the game. He instituted many plays that often other teams didn’t use, for
instance, just hitting the ball on the ground and the runner on first base going from first to
third, you know, those kinds of things. That’s what made him good and he cared and I
just really liked him. 21:10
Interviewer: “Big man, small man?”
Very wiry and medium height.
Interviewer: “Loud, quiet, soft spoken?”
It depended on whom he was talking to and what he was saying. I can’t say he was loud
or gregarious, he wasn’t, he tended to business and I liked that because that’s the way I
was brought up. Probably brought up too much that way, really focused on what I was
doing and he was really focused on what he was doing and he expected you to function
that way and that’s why I think he was good. 21:59
Interviewer: “Now, do you have a recollection of the first league game you pitched
in? You were pitching in these exhibition games up north.”
That’s very interesting--you know I don’t, I do not, I don’t remember the first league
game I pitched in.
Interviewer: “Are there other games that stand out over time? Some play off
games?”
My no hit no run games stand out in my mind.
Interviewer: “Gee, I wonder why that is?”
A twelve inning duel with Ziggy, Alma Zeigler from Grand Rapids. I don’t know why
they stand out that way.
Interviewer: “Let’s talk about those no hitters. You had two no hitters in a very
short period of time.”
That must have been a good year. 22:50
Interviewer: “Yes, I guess, so there’s a superstition in baseball that you don’t talk
to the pitcher until they give up a hit. If they get deep into a game you leave them
alone and no one mentions the fact that there are no hits. Did the women follow that
same kind of superstition?”
I think so because I don’t remember discussing it or anybody saying anything about it.
Interviewer: “Did you have a notion what you were doing?” 23:15
Yes.
7
�Interviewer: “Any moments in that game that stand out where they came close to
getting a hit?”
No moments stand out, sorry.
Interviewer: “Ok, that’s ok, sometimes you’re so lost in the next batter you’re not
thinking about anything else. There was two of them up, roughly that and you have
to feel pretty good about yourself at that point, you’ve got this pitching thing figured
out.
I think it was. Well, I’ll tell you something, if you didn’t feel good about yourself, you
didn’t last in that league.
Interviewer: “Do you want to expand on that a little bit?” 23:57
Well, you had to have confidence, you had to think that every time you walked out on
that mound, you walked out on that mound for one purpose and it was to win that ball
game, and if you didn’t have that confidence—athletes cannot perform unless they have
that confidence and some people call it cockiness and whatever it is, if somebody asks
you, “are you good”, you say, “you betch ya”.
Interviewer: “I can strike you out. Describe yourself as a pitcher would you?
What did you throw? What were your strengths and if there was a weakness, what
was it?” 24:46
I was primarily a power pitcher. I developed a cross fire where I stepped to first base and
brought it in right under your ribs. I was not afraid to work the inside of the plate. I had
a changeup and later in years, I developed a two fingered knuckle curve and obviously
that’s a ball that’s thrown with a spin on it and when it loses enough momentum, it falls
off and I was left handed and that was good for pitching against some of the very, very
good left handed hitters. 25:41
Interviewer: “A cross fire’s a pretty effective pitch against some of them too.”
We had –I do remember this—In one of the games I pitched in Kenosha, an Umpire, his
name was Remo, his last name, was behind the plate and he caught every one of those
cross fires and called them strikes and sometimes that’s hard for an Umpire because it
catches the front of the plate and by the time it reaches the back of the plate it’s in the
sand and that probably was very important to my further development as a pitcher. 26:26
Interviewer: “It gave you confidence to keep throwing. It’s a pitch—you say it
starts out from the first base side and if it’s a left handed hitter their tendency is to
lean back or away from it and a right handed hitter, their tendency is to think it’s
coming inside at them and you’re right, if you throw it right it comes right across
the front left hand corner of the plate and it’s still a strike, but the catcher is
reaching beyond the strike zone to pick it up and they will miss it.” 26:47
8
�They will because it’s very easy to miss. I had some Umpires that did miss them and I
didn’t like it.
Interviewer: “Did you ever get in an argument with an Umpire?”
Oh sure.
Interviewer: “Ever get thrown out?”
No, not that big of an argument. 27:16
Interviewer: “What was the quality of the umpiring in your mind? Your standing
up—pitchers have a particular perspective on umpiring, that’s for sure, how would
you assess the umpiring in the games you played in the league as you saw it?”
I think it was very good. I think it was very high quality. They’re going to miss some
stuff, but we didn’t let them know that we thought that they were going to miss some
stuff, they were going to, but I think the quality of the umpiring was excellent. 27:54
Interviewer: “Which is probably not a bad idea—attitude for a pitcher to have
going out there. Think of the Umpire as your friend and if they sensed that at all,
they just might become your friend. As a hitter I always felt that way. Any teams
that you felt a special rivalry with at all?”
Well of course I always felt the rivalry of Rockford. I welcomed going into Rockford
and beating them and they were very, very good, very good. I played with Rockford my
last year in the league and many of them became very close friends, but that was the team
that I welcomed pitching and playing against. 28:53
Interviewer: “It makes sense, if you can’t play with them then the best thing you
can do is to go in and beat them.”
That’s right, that’s right.
Interviewer: “Talk to me, if you will, a little bit about travel. How you go t around,
the teams were fairly close together, but you still had to get from one town to
another on short notice sometimes.”
In 1945, when I played with Rockford, we traveled by train, the Illinois Central out of
Rockford into Chicago and then changed trains to other locations; New York Central up
into Michigan and that was wonderful. Travel by train was just super. Well, the league
figured out that if they had their own buses it would be cheaper and more efficient. If we
had a trip from Kenosha, Wisconsin to Grand Rapids, that’s a long trip and we would
leave after the ball game and stop somewhere and have dinner before we left Kenosha
and then you traveled all night. 30:12 It was much more efficient for the league to go by
bus travel. Big buses and they were comfortable.
Interviewer: “No sleeping berths though on a bus.”
No sleeping berths.
9
�Interviewer: “You had to figure out your own way to get comfortable.”
You just had to kick back and do what you could.
Interviewer: “Now, when you got into—as a visitor coming into a town, you’re in
that town for three or four games, something like that, did you stay in hotels, did
you stay in homes?” 30:52
We stayed in hotels and we stayed in the best hotel in that town, yes we did.
Interviewer: “At that point the league took care of you in that regard.”
They absolutely did. We stayed in the VanOrmin in Fort Wayne and the Pere Marquette
in Peoria, good hotels.
Interviewer: “They probably put you in the Pantlind in Grand Rapids or I would
have to think about where else in Grand Rapids you might have stayed at, there
were a couple big hotels.
I know it was right downtown. 31:26
Interviewer: “Probably the Pantlind. Did the teams you played on get to the
playoffs?”
Once, and it was against Rockford and it was two out of three I believe.
Interviewer: “And this was Racine against Rockford?”
Kenosha, Kenosha against Rockford and they beat us and we were done.
Interviewer: “Did you get to pitch in the playoffs?”
I played first base in that playoff, you know I could hit a little bit and I often played first
base or one of the outfield positions. I took my turn every third or fourth day. 32:20
Interviewer: “Yeah, with the short roster you had, a lot of them played as position
players as well. Ziggy for example, was both a pitcher and a—second baseman,
right and you and a lot of others the same way, if you could hit a little bit.”
You had to be able to hit.
Interviewer: “What was the quality of the hitting in the league? Was it more of a
pitcher’s league or a hitter’s league?”
I think it’s very, very similar to major league baseball now, I really do. It’s not like
softball, which is a pitcher’s game; it was probably pretty well balanced.
Interviewer: ”You saw some scoring.” 33:16
Right, we saw some scoring and our batting champions were hitting up into the mid three
hundreds, so it was probably a pretty balanced game.
10
�Interviewer: “You played through some rules and equipment changes. The base
length changed didn’t it at some point? The ball changed in size, did you like the
changes as they occurred?”
Yes, I did.
Interviewer: “Let’s talk a little more, you tell me what kinds of changes occurred.”
33:58
Of course the pitching distance changed. The change when we went away from strictly
softball pitching and it went to pitching where the hand had to be below the wrist, then it
had to be below the elbow and then it had to be below the shoulder and right over the top.
As that pitching changed and structure changed, the ball got smaller and smaller and of
course as pitchers, we liked that. The bases got longer, the game got more like baseball
and less like softball. 35:00 Much more in the way of double plays, relays from the
outfield to nail them at home and that kind of thing. As the ball got smaller, the game got
faster; I guess that’s what happened.
Interviewer: “The skill level adjusted?”
Yes, it did.
Interviewer: “And there was some training and teaching going on? Bill Allington
wasn’t the only one, or Allington I should say, wasn’t the only one teaching?”
There were many that didn’t.
Interviewer: “True” 35:29
There were many that didn’t, yes.
Interviewer: “ I think Woody English comes to mind, who a lot of the players liked,
as someone who paid attention and took his job seriously is maybe the fair way to
put it.”
Yes he did. The game, I think, was more interesting for the spectators as the bases
lengthened and as the ball got smaller.
Interviewer: “You played then from your first year, which was 1945, until 1954,
basically the end of the league. What are your perspectives on that period when it
went into decline and at some point you could see it coming. What happened? Tell
me about it.” 36:21
You could see it coming. Many of the teams board of directors did what they could to
cut expenses, as tight as they could, we traveled in cars, which was very poor, that was in
the last year, next to the last year.
Interviewer: “Packed tightly in cars or a group of cars?”
It was not a good thing. Not a good thing for the players and for the league in particular.
You could see the decline, your salaries didn’t go down, your meal money didn’t go
11
�down, but you could see it particularly in the travel. The fields were still kept up and
they were beautiful fields. 37:19
Interviewer: “The fields were the responsibility of the local communities, at least in
some cases the parks department had some role in maintaining the fields.”
Well, any team I played on, we had a—I’m thinking golf, a greens keeper.
Interviewer: “Groundskeeper?”
Yes, a groundskeeper who took care of the field and we knew him.
Interviewer: “He was with the team?”
Yes, and the teams were tailored, just like the major league fields now, the fields were
tailored to the team. For instance, Jean Fout, whom I consider to be the best overhand
pitcher in the league, she came from tight from over the top and they built the mound up
for her. 38:14
Interviewer: “So she was even taller out there. Of course, if you were an overhand
pitcher and pitching there, you at least had that same mound to pitch from.”
Oh yes you did, that’s true.
Interviewer: “Did some of the teams water down the area in front of home plate a
little bit?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Let the grass grow a little longer in the infield?”
Yes they did.
Interviewer: “That’s been going on for a long time hasn’t it?”
Yes it has and we took advantage of that. The grounds keeper would work with the
manager and the fields were tailored to the home teams strengths and weaknesses. 38:52
Interviewer: “I said earlier that one of the people I talked to about pitching
suggested that there were things done to the baseball. What she talked about was
an accusation of one team put the balls in the refrigerator before that game just to
make them a little deader. Did you ever hear of such a thing?”
No, (laughingly), never heard of it.
Interviewer: “Did you ever hear of any pitchers that would doctor the ball a little
bit?”
No. 39:28
Interviewer: “Certainly men were accused of such things.”
I know. A friend of mine, who is an athletic director at one of the universities in the
west, said that in one of their publications there was an article by an Umpire and his name
12
�was Petrangeli, and he said that he threw me out of a game for throwing a spit ball and I
said, “that’s ridiculous, he must not have had too much to say and he had to pull on
something”, but he was a Kenosha Umpire and he umpired a lot of my games, but I was
never thrown out. 40:16 Not even for arguing.
Interviewer: “It’s a fine line sometimes to how far you can go and what you can say
and what they’ll listen to and tolerate and what they won’t.”
That’s right. There was not a whole lot of foul language in the girls league.
Interviewer: “I hope not. There were some women who did get tossed, had pretty
fiery tempers.”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “I can’t think of her name all of a sudden, she played for Grand
Rapids and all I can think of her is the blonde from Arizona.”
California and she’s gone now—it will come to me. 41:06
Interviewer: “It won’t come to me right now either.”
She was from California and she’s gone now, she died of cancer. She was very good, but
she was fiery and so was Faye Dancer, from California.
Interviewer: “Not afraid of any Umpire.”
Interviewer: “The league is coming to an end and travel is pretty miserable, pay
didn’t go up—to what do you contribute that decline in revenue that they were
grappling with? That means fewer fans, what was happening to cause that?”
I think it was a combination of things. The war was over, the entertainment was
available and the entertainment dollar was spread around. You could now go into
Chicago and see the Sox or Cubs play and the pros that played were retiring and they
were bringing in top-notch softball players and they couldn’t adapt fast enough to the
game. And there were mental errors and people don’t pay to see that. It was really a
combination of things. 42:35
Interviewer: “If it’s sloppy they don’t like it. Did television play any role?”
It was barely started because I remember—I was going to undergraduate school in the off
season and I remember grappling with either working on what I should be working on or
watching the television, but I remember a little tiny screen. I don’t think television was a
factor. 43:10
Interviewer: “Ultimately television played a role in the decline of the minor leagues
in men’s professional baseball, but it was a little later. Unless you’ve got something
more you’d like to say about your career that I haven’t thought to ask you about,
I’d like to move over and talk about your post baseball career a little bit. What did
you do after baseball?” 43:37
13
�Well, during the off-season I went to undergraduate school at Eastern Michigan
University, Ypsilanti, Michigan, and seven miles from Ann Arbor, that big school.
Interviewer: “How did you pick Eastern Michigan, you’re over here in
Wisconsin?”
Well, Eastern Michigan was ranked the third best women’s physical education school in
the country and that was my field of study. I went to Eastern Michigan and got my
Bachelors degree and began teaching in the off-season in the public schools. I taught ten
years in the public schools. I taught in Trenton, Michigan for four years, that was my
first job. I taught for four years in Rockford, Illinois schools, West Rockford, Illinois.
Then I decided after eight years that I better get my Masters, so I went down to the
University of Illinois on a graduate assistantship and got my Masters degree and came
back and was a department head in a new school in Rockford and then I got a cal from
my Alma Mater, Eastern Michigan University, to please join them on their staff and there
is no greater thrill than being asked to join the staff of your undergraduate school. 45:33
Interviewer: “Those who taught you, and you stayed there.”
I stayed there twenty-nine years. I started out teaching theory of team sports, individual
sports, all of those and then I did some further work at the University of Michigan, which
was only seven miles from me and I did some further work in Scientific Foundations of
Physical Education and ended up teaching Scientific Foundations to sports medicine
people. Anatomy, Physiology, Biology Etc. and that’s where I finished my career. 46:18
I loved every bit of it. I loved the public schools, the team sports and the major courses
that I taught in the Scientific Foundations. I kept me from being bored.
Interviewer: “Did someone particularly encourage you to go college? Was that
your own decision?”
It was my own decision, my mother, like all good mothers, wanted me to stay home and
get married so she could have some grand kids and she said, “Well, if you want to go to
school, you can go to Rockford to college”. There was no physical education curriculum
offered there, but she didn’t understand that, so I had to go to school against their wishes.
47:09 When they found out that I was serious, then they accepted the fact that I was
away from home going to school.
Interviewer: “You had been away from home already.”
That was different.
Interviewer: “Did you continue in team sports as a player for a time or involved in
team sports after pro baseball?”
14
�I played one year of slow pitch and it was on a lark. Some of the professors at my
university and some of them at the University of Michigan decided we would get a team
together and we would do some slow pitch and it was fun.
Interviewer: “The strength of it is that it’s a team sport, the weakness is that it’s not
like baseball or even softball, it’s a different game. Let me now move to the final
portion of all this and I’d like you to reflect on it. It has to do in a sense, the
rediscovery of the All American Girls Baseball League, because I suspect you too
went through that period—your friends, you may have told them your baseball
experiences, but few people knew you were a professional baseball player, I’m
guessing. 48:44
Been there, done that and never talked about it. Who would have understood anyhow?
Interviewer: “A few, but not a whole lot, you’re right. All of a sudden though come
this movie and a national awareness that there was this unique group of women and
that they played baseball professionally for several years and they’re still around.
They discovered you at some point again and I bet you remember when that
occurred?” 49:19
Well yes, the Ann Arbor paper wanted to run an article on you and the professors at the
men’s club wanted you to come and talk to them about your baseball career etc., so the
opportunities were many, yes.
Interviewer: “Did the young women that were in your classes want to talk about it
too and get to know you a little more because of that?”
No, I can’t say they did. I can’t say that they did, I’m sure that they respected it. I can
remember them coming to that one year when we played slow pitch, coming to the games
and watching and it always tickled me that I was able to do something that I had taught
them how to do in the team sports class like catch the runner off second base and run at
him and freeze him and then make the throw and I liked that because it helped me to
realize that they understood that I do know what I’m talking about. 50:49
Interviewer: “Darn tootin’ you did. Reflect a little on the role that you perhaps
didn’t see yourself playing at all, but as a pioneer really in women in sports and in
some ways even in the larger movement toward feminism and more roles for women
in our society, you are part of that. Do you think about that, you must?”
I didn’t think about it at the time. Didn’t think about it at all. I supported and still
support the feminist movement. When Billie Jean King played Bobby Riggs, we all got
together and watched it together and the fact that P.K Wrigley insisted that the spectators
knew that those were women out there playing the game by the way they acted, by the
uniforms, how they dressed off the field, made me realize that that was a very important
part of women in sports. 52:30
15
�Interviewer: “That’s an interesting perspective I hadn’t thought of. I always
judged him more harshly for that because I thought he was, you know, because I
thought he was trying to feminize, or overly feminize and take advantage of the fact
and your argument would be quite the contrary. He wanted to make sure—he was
making sure that people knew that these were women. He was very insightful.
He was very, very perceptive—that he was and I think it was important. There was a
professional softball league in Chicago at that time and they dressed in I don’t know what
they dressed in—shorts or whatever. 53:20
Interviewer: “Some of them dressed in trousers almost or long pants.”
They didn’t draw the way we drew. We were entertainment for the industrial workers. It
was a family kind of audience—kids, women and men.
Interviewer: “Do you still hear from fans?”
No.
Interviewer: “You get requests for autographs though?”
Yes, many, many.
Interviewer: “Do you ever get tired of people asking for your autograph or wanting
to talk about what you did?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Do you feel an obligation to keep doing it regardless?” 54:07
Sure, absolutely, I don’t have any more baseball cards, they’re all gone and I had
hundreds and I have to say to them, “I’m sorry I don’t have anymore”, and you can’t get
them either.
Interviewer: “Somebody has got to do a reprint.”
Well they did one some time ago.
Interviewer: “Those of you watching, what have I left out, anything? That was an
easy interview. All we had to do was sit and have a conversation. You saw the
movie when it came out and you have probably seen it more than once since.
What’s your reaction?” 55:03
It was fun and it was a fun movie. I can see why people would enjoy seeing it. The
baseball portion of it was pretty accurate and of course they had to do some Hollywood
tinkering a bit. We did not live all together in our home city. The manager did not come
into the women’s dressing room under any circumstances, but those two things made the
movie very, very entertaining for the average person that would go to a movie. 55:43 It
was fun.
Interviewer: “They did have classes for some of the women to—“
The first year, only the first year.
16
�Interviewer: “There had to be some resistance in the—not everyone—how did they
respond to the fact that they were going to charm school?”
I don’t know, but I can imagine—it was a big joke, that’s how they responded.
Interviewer: “That’s right, you weren’t there because you came two years later and
that would be my guess. It was a man’s idea, I think. to have these classes anyway
and that tells you something about it. 56:25
But that reinforces the idea that P.K Wrigley knew that the aura that the players had to
give off, needed to be a feminine aura or it wasn’t going to go.
Interviewer: “I do appreciate your perspective that it helped women in sports.
That he drew attention to the fact that these were women playing that well and
doing that well. That’s a good insight and I appreciate that.” 57:09
Sometimes I get, along with the request to sign cards etc., questions that they want
answered and one of the is, ”did the men and boys laugh at you in the stands and did they
make it hard for you?” For some reason or other, they thought that they might.
Interviewer: “Did they?”
No, not at all.
Interviewer: “Thank you, thank you very much.”
Thank you for asking me.
17
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
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RHC-58_JCione
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Cione, Jean (Interview transcript and video), 2009
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Cione, Jean
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Jean Cione was born in Rockford, Illinois in 1928. She grew up in the Rockford area and played softball with the neighborhood boys and then also played with the local industrial teams. When the Rockford Peaches made Rockford their headquarters, Cione tried out for the team and at age 15 joined the ranks of the Rockford Peaches in 1945 as a reserve rookie first baseman. In 1946, she was traded to the Peoria Red Wings and played first baseman for them but was then traded to the Kenosha Comets in 1947. She remained with the Kenosha Comets from 1947 to 1953 and played sometimes as a left-handed pitcher, first baseman, or outfield. Consequently, the Comets franchise disbanded in 1954 and she was traded back to the Rockford Peaches where she finished out when the All American Girls Baseball League was disbanded.
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Olson, Gordon (Interviewer)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
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eng
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Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-26
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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video/mp4
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c42990a60e86b7dbe4c108c04c63ad47.m4v
fa659475ddcb289600fe23ea8a2316ee
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f56e382575eb4a2579dcb68f799e8216.pdf
72a3ca60a73aaccde475c16f7454ebf0
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Toni Palermo
Length of Interview: (01:00:14)
Interviewed by: Gordon Olson GVSU Veterans History Project, September 26, 2009,
Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, September 7, 2010
Interviewer: “Let’s start with some easy stuff, just some background, tell me a little
bit about your family and where you grew up before professional baseball?”
Yes, I grew up in Forest Park, Illinois and my parents were from Italy and I spoke no
English when I went to school, so it took some doing. I had a lot of speech practice with
speech in college to eradicate all the Italian mispronunciations and accent, but yes our
family background was very poor and the other thing that I thought was very
interesting—I never had to get permission from my parents to play ball. Today you
almost have to have the legal system supporting you, so I thought that was quite
interesting.
Interviewer: “Did you play ball as a child?” 1:11
Yes,
Interviewer: “With brothers and sisters?”
No, I just played with the boys all the time; there were no you know. In Forest Park there
was a “Parishey Bloomers Girls” professional softball team and they had a farm team and
when I was, I think, ten years old my physical education teacher, who was a “Parishey
Bloomer Girl” professional, retired, told me to try out for their farm team and then to
eventually be on their team and I did and I made it. I was so small and everything that
they had a special uniform for me. The others were black and white and they had a blue
and gold thing that they could find to fit me, but I was strong and mighty, very strong.
Small, but mighty. 1:58
Interviewer: “You looked more like their mascot than one of their players.”
I know it, the glove was bigger than I was.
Interviewer: “Now Parishey, was that a company?”
He owned a construction company and then he owned the professional team. They were
thee professional team, they were the champions of all champions.
Interviewer: “To be selected that young to be trained for that.”
1
�I practiced, I shagged balls, I was out there all the time and it’s just I learned the game
between being with the boys and the Parishey Bloomer girls, I learned the game and I
was very fast, which was nice, so that was a big help too. I could shag more than the
others 2:43
Interviewer: “As they say, and it’s said over and over in all levels of baseball or
other sports, “you can’t teach speed”. If you’re fast--”
You can work on it and improve it, yeah I agree.
Interviewer: “It’s a great asset. How did you learn about, how did you get involved
with the professional baseball league?”
Well, they were scouting and they saw me play, I think when I was eleven, and they came
up and asked me to go to Cuba to do spring training. I really thought they had—I just
thought that they weren’t for real, truly. I was so young and I thought, “why would they
want me to go to Cuba?” And to think that I was good enough. I knew I loved it, but I
had no concept if I was good, bad or different, I just loved the game. They said they
would get tutors for me and this, that and the other and that’s where “Lefty” came from, I
didn’t know if you know Alvarez, Lefty Alvarez and Maita, they all came from Cuba.
3:50 I opt not to do it, I don’t know, just because I didn’t believe it and it would have
been nice to go and I would have found out that I actually belonged there too.
Interviewer: “But they kept watching you.”
They kept pursuing me and then Mr. Parishey pursued me when I was thirteen, so I was
with them before that in what they called the farm team and then he signed me when I
was thirteen, then the league got in touch with me and I got excited about it and on my
own at age fourteen, I can’t believe I did this, got off, got onto the El, got off at Canal
Street, got on that train, went to South Bend, Indiana, nobody caring anything or babying
anybody, got there and then found the ball park you know and I can’t—I think back and
then I went to New York and met the team in New York on the flight, got on the plane
and I look back at all that and I don’t know how I had courage and not been afraid. 4:53
You had a goal and I guess my goal was to get to the team and that took care of all the
problems.
Interviewer: “ You had to have some trust in where you were going and the people
all around that you were going to make it ok?”
Yeah, they gave the directions, here’s how you get there and I just used my brain and on I
went.
Interviewer: “Did you have a contract at that point?”
Not yet, but I—when I went to South Bend, that was a training, and then when I went to,
I think I must have signed the contract wither just before or when I got to New York.
5:27
2
�Interviewer: “When you signed there because, there are a couple of things here that
are very interesting. The fact that you’re fourteen years old and your parents knew
you were doing this.”
Yes, but I never asked permission.
Interviewer: “You just took off?”
No, I think I just said that they wanted me to play and I was going to go. It wasn’t like
today you know. It’s so legalistic today, but yeah, and I think that they were happy that I
was happy and of course I really sent all my money back home, so I think that made them
happy after the fact. 6:06
Interviewer: “How many brothers and sisters in your family?”
I had one sister.
Interviewer: “Before we abandon this line, what did your father—what was the line
of work?”
He was a salesman and my mother a stay at home, but he taught collage classes and that,
he had a university degree, but he never questioned, he just—he saw that I was skilled
and we were poor and he bought me a bike because I said I wanted a bike so I could go
riding with the boys, so he bought me a boys bike and things like that. He just kind of
supported what I wanted and must have thought I had some kind of skill or talent. 6:51
Interviewer: “And he had confidence that you would find your way to south Bend.”
I don’t think that even bothered them and I think because I wasn’t afraid.
Interviewer: “What do you recall about the tryout and the training that you did
there?”
Oh, I loved it, just loved it and again I wasn’t apprehensive. I had confidence and I guess
I didn’t realize that they were going to test me out and decide whether to take me or not.
I just assumed that I was in. You know, I went there, they were going to take me, and it
wasn’t like a question, so I just loved it and they gave tips. For a while there I was being
hit all the time, hit in the arm by the pitches and one time I lost my temper and I threw the
bat and angry that they’re just killing me and then the coach came up and said, “be angry
with yourself, you’re the one stepping into the ball”, he said, “you’re supposed to avoid
the pitch”. 7:49 He said, “you’re running right into the ball”, and he told me that you
have to hit ahead because if you wait for that pitch and it’s curving it’s going to hit you
every time. He said, “I don’t want to see that anger at all again or that temper or
whatever it was, you find a way of keeping out of the way of the ball”. That was a good
lesson learned.
Interviewer: “How many were there at this tryout? It was a tryout and you just
didn’t know it.”
It was packed all over the field and I don’t recall how many.
3
�Interviewer: “A lot.”
Yes, and I know we were at Wrigley Field also. For whatever reason, I remember either
working out or trying out there a lot in that Chicago area. 8:35
Interviewer: “Ultimately you’re selected?”
Yes
Interviewer: “At this point it’s not to play in the all American Girls League. They
had another—they had a barnstorming team.”
Yes, that’s correct.
Interviewer: “Tell me about that.”
That was something else and I didn’t know the difference anyhow whatever it was. It
was called the touring team and we were to be the P.R. people to like introducing it all
over the United States and also kind of finding talent, so in every state that we played
there were tryouts. And that’s how Sue Kidd got in, I don’t know if she’s been
interviewed, but she was picked up in Arkansas and the caliber—there were a lot of
players who had been in the leagues and a few of the teams had broken up or they
weren’t making it financially, so they then came on the touring teams, so we had these
veterans with us and ourselves. We had--Max Carey came out and he showed me how to
initiate a double play like everybody to this day if I were out in the field people are like in
awe and it’s beautiful, how to time it, hit the corner of the bad and get off, and people
would just awe you know. 9:50 That all came from Max Carey and how to—at first,
you know the people who field the grounders, kids are fielding them down here and they
don’t reach out and get them, and he said to all of us, “none of you know how to field a
grounder”, and evidently we were all doing that and I took offense to that inside and
thought, “uh, I’m playing all this time and he’s telling me I don’t know how to field a
grounder”, and I never committed errors, but I took it to heart and it made sense to reach
out, and I use to say, “reach out and touch someone”, you know, reach out and get it.
Then you get to the ball earlier and you have more time to get them and so his help was
very helpful and you know, batting, bunting, we practiced in the sand, sliding in the sand,
you know sliding in the sand. They would time our bat swing, so you’re up there and
they had a flashlight, and they would flash the light and you would swing and the timing
of that, so everybody after the league ended, I would play in the summer leagues in
Madison, they would say, “oh you have the fastest swing, the fastest swing”, and I
thought that all came from the coaching and the training. 11:00
Interviewer: “You’re talking of things that youngsters playing and getting to the
majors too quick don’t know. They talk about young people with what they call the
long swing and it’s the opposite of what you’re describing. It’s a big looping swing
and a good pitcher will take advantage of it, but a short quick swing is not nearly as
easy to get the ball past.”
Yes, and it’s extending, It’s not just a little thing like this, you really are extending, but it
did the job because, see you had more time to adjust the pitches too. If you had a quick
4
�swing, it’s a curve you can reach out, if it’s a fastball you’re not going to be that late on
it, where the slower swing people were caught all the time. 11:46 It was an advantage
and we had all these coaches and managers that really taught—if you were coachable,
and throughout my life I’ve been coachable, and that’s the key. I really love learning.
Interviewer: “It’s about attitude.”
Yes, attitude.
Interviewer: “Now, this is—you were obviously very naturally skilled and what
you’re talking about it the first time you were really formally taught the game, so
you spent how many years with the barnstorming team?”
Two, Two years with the barnstorming team. The interesting thing too is being the P.R.
people, every state we had all these parades and we would be on the fire trucks, we would
be in the airplanes, we were all over and they would have big bands and we would go
into the town. 12:45 We also played Yankee Stadium and Ebbets Field, those two places
and I was in the dugout with Phil “Scooter” Rizzuto and he let me use his glove and we
were on theirs and then the Eagles, no not the Eagles, the Phillies, I think they were
called the Phillies, Connie Mack’s team, they were in the other dugout and so we had a
lot of plus opportunities.
Interviewer: “Who were your opponents?”
Each other, we had—it was Chicago Colleens and Springfield Sallies and there was a
bonus, whoever won at the end, the most games, got a higher percentage of the money. It
was a big incentive. We played against each other and then we rode on the bus together,
played against each other and we were tough against each other, but we really respected
each other after the fact. 13:34
Interviewer: “Did they come out pretty even at the end of the year?”
Yes, The first we won, I was a Chicago Colleen, then the next year I came back as a
Chicago Colleen and the teams were unbalanced, we were winning too much, so the
coach came up to me and said, “Toni, I don’t want to spoil your game or your rhythm and
you’re doing so well, but we need to put you on the other team, on the Springfield
Sallyies, so that we can balance it better”. It was just too lopsided, so I agreed to it and
It’s interesting because the shortstop on the other team, who I thought was excellent, she
had long arms and she could—I thought to myself, I had to run ten steps to her one and
she had a beautiful throwing arm, so it was interesting in my mind I thought, “why
would—what difference does it make when she’s so good?” I didn’t think that I was that
much better, but I got to thinking afterwards, “I have an attitude and a spirit that she
didn’t have”. We may have been comparable in skill, I was faster and sometimes when
you have these long—but she was excellent, and I got to thinking that I was inspired
more because I would just dive for every ball and I had kind of an energy and she was
laid back kind of from the south you know. 14:58 That was my assessment because I
couldn’t reconcile why I was going to make a difference and it did make a difference. I
5
�think the team got together and we won. We won by two games at the end. Came from
way back behind and it was nice, it was nice.
Interviewer: “Very satisfying. Did they take then some players from each year
from the barnstorming teams up to the--?”
Yes, and even during this. They were going to take me the first year and then just as I
was about to leave they decided they—not thinking age, decided, “We’ll give her another
year”, but at that time, I stole the most bases and I had the highest on base batting
average, says the coach to me you know, and I was leadoff batter, so I don’t know, it
would have been interesting to see how I would have kind of compared when I got there.
15:55 Were they stronger women because they were they older and more experience?
Twice I was supposed to go up and twice it was rescinded and I think basically it was
they wanted to give me more age time.
Interviewer: “After two years you’re only sixteen or seventeen years old.”
Yes, fourteen, fifteen, just going on sixteen, yeah.
Interviewer: “Just reaching the point where—“
It’s interesting because they knew I was going to steal and I got to steal every time I got
on and I got on a lot because I had a very good eye, so I seldom struck out and I hit with
authority. It seemed like when I hit it was a bullet. They weren’t big home runs, but I hit
really strong, so they had a hard time handling my ball and then I was fast, so the steal
and I said to the coach, “they’re all waiting for me”. I was so tired of sliding and you
know they had lye on the bases and lye on the base and I was just raw all the time, hook
sliding, hook sliding, and he said, “never mind, never mind”, and the other thing is when
I got on first, if there was a hit and run, I had better get to third. 17:03 That was a given,
you just don’t stop you just swish and get all the way to third, so there were challenges,
you know it was exciting, but heart throbbing.
Interviewer: “It sound like you had a coach who was he?”
At that time I think it was Lenny, Lenny Lesnick and then Mitch, Mitch was the second
year.
Interviewer: “It sounds like these were guys whose idea was to take the game to the
opposition to push them all the time.”
Yeah, you had--a lot with the mind, when you were--say a runner on first, what do you do
when the runners on first? Before the ball’s even pitched, what are you saying to
yourself? Well, you had to say to yourself, “well, if it’s a fast runner on first, you have to
know your pitcher, outside, inside, whatever they normally pitch, so you keep that in
mind. If that’s a fast runner, “will there be a double play?” You have to instinctively
prepare that if it’s a ball hit fast to you, you have a chance, if it’s a slow roller, you’re not
going to get her at second, if she’s a slow runner then you have more options. 18:11
That went through my mind every pitch. I don’t know if the kids do that today, I don’t
6
�know if ball players do that. You had to think every pitch and you had to know your
pitcher. I remember one of the older players and she said, “I can’t get over”, and I was
telling her where to be on the field, over there, over there, move in, move out and I never
thought that I was a little shrimp bossing anybody around or whatever, it just—I was in
the game and I would see she was not playing where she should have been and positioned
and I would just say—and one time she came over and said, “I can’t get over, how do you
know where they’re going to hit?” It was the studying of the pitchers, some pitchers
pitch outside a lot, so then obviously they’re not going to zing them right to you, they’re
going to skew away from you, so all those things were on my brain and age fourteen and
fifteen. 19:05 Well, I’m grateful that God endowed me with a great mind, but you
know, it was exciting.
Interviewer: “I think I’m getting a clue as to why they moved you to the other team.
It had to do, not only with your ability, but what you were going to bring to the
other player. You’re right a little bit of a spark plug, but also you were going to set
an example.”
The coach, Mitch, he said, “Toni came here to play ball”, so evidently, I have a feeling,
there were a few slacking a little just because he said, “she’s out there and she came to
play ball, and what about the rest of you?” I t was quite a challenge. 19:46
Interviewer: “Once again, attitude. You mentioned a couple of the managers, any
other coaches or managers that come to mind that you remember yet?”
Yeah, our chaperones were really good, yeah and contrary to the movie, you know how
they went out drinking and this and that, we were so protected. I don’t know if anybody
went out drinking and I don’t know how they could have, but the example—you had to
be setting an example, set an example, you’re out here introducing baseball to people and
they have never seen women play and it’s very important our image to them. We had to
be ladylike, always in the skirts even though you finish the game and shower and always
with the skirts though hardly anyone would see us that hour of the night you know.
Everything was important as to how we presented and their image of women in sports or
women in baseball. 20:42
Interviewer: “I know that in some cases there were actually classes or a bit of
training for the girls on how to comport themselves, even up to how to fix their hair
and everything else. Did you encounter any of that?”
No, I’m glad—that would have been something, but I think I would have gone with the
flow too and would have been part of it. We had to have our hair a little longer, now
mine was never long, but they didn’t want us looking masculine. Everything was
important to look feminine and still be ball players.
Interviewer: “Not always easy.”
Once I was out there, who thought of it right? With the little skirt, sliding into the bases,
skirts flying up, it must have been quite exciting.
7
�Interviewer: “It sold tickets. Now, I keep thinking of that particular image, sliding
into the bases. Now, what did those uniforms look like? You had shorts on
underneath and then a skirt, but there was bare skin and the fields you were playing
on sometimes had some pebbles and things?” 21:50
Oh yeah, except when we toured and played in the stadiums, which was really nice, we
played in the minor league stadiums that was good, but yeah, other places there were
pebbles and you really--it’s interesting, you really adjust to the ground like a golfer does.
Interviewer: “Go out and groom your area a little bit if there’s stones out there, get
them out of there.”
Yeah, and you know they said, “there’s no crying in baseball”, but I have to say, we
wouldn’t have thought to cry. I never saw a woman cry there ever, but I’m going to tell
you, those strawberries and reopening them, because I was on base every night, that was
not an easy thing, but it’s interesting, you didn’t think of it until after you slid and
“oww”, you could hardly get up, but you took it , you toughened. 22:46 In fact, when I
had my knee surgery five weeks ago the doctor said, “you are really tough Toni, you are
tough”, and it all carries through from all that time of being—taking pain and learning to
take pain, you’re not born taking it. 23:00 Being a strong person and adversity.
Interviewer: “You were athletes and if your teammates are dealing with pain, you
better too.”
There was no complaining, moaning, groaning, and no gossiping. For women, think of
all those women together, it could be men too, they could be talkers too, but when I think
of it, with the conditions, no air conditioning, you’re on the bus sweltering, clothes
hanging in your face drying out, and trying to sleep on the bus, taking turns using one
another’s laps as head rests, feet up in the air and then switching off and not being
crabby, that’s amazing, and we would play at night, games over, shower, back into the
bus all dressed, back into the bus and then we would travel all night, get up at eight.
24:01 Probably come in about 2:00 or 3:00 o’clock in the morning and get up at 8:00 and
we were practicing on the field until noon. And practicing, running the bases, let me tell
you, they stood on the base path, you know were you make the cut, well, God help you if
you—they were there and they weren’t going to move and you learned to make that cut.
Interviewer: “Hit the inside of the base and cross over.”
That’s right, and they stood there, they stood there protecting themselves, but you would
get the worst end of it and that was all before the game. You did that until noon and then
we had a little respite time, get dressed and off to the game and when we had double
headers it was nice because you had an extra night to stay, you know to stay. We
traveled sometimes—the bus all the time and then trains. We went to Canada that was by
train then back to the U.S. We were in thirty-three states in the summer the whole time
and then I would go off to high school and come back. 25:03
8
�Interviewer: ‘Very few days off I would think.”
Only when it rained, it was wonderful in Florida; it loves to rain, and pour, pour, pour
then we would have that day off. It was nice because you had a little rest.
Interviewer: “Did you ever play, like a local team or even a men’s team as an
exhibition?”
No, I think they were trying to do a men’s team, but I don’t think—they wouldn’t have
women’s teams at that level, so it would be men, but that seemed to fall through. 25:45
Interviewer: “No men’s team wanted to get beat.”
That could be, yeah.
Interviewer: “How about some of the opposition, are there specific players that
stand out that you either respected or didn’t like in some cases for their attitude
toward the game?”
I think the interesting thing is , I was, I don’t know about the others, I was so involved in
the game that I didn’t have a problem—I didn’t see like imperfections or if they didn’t
have a good attitude or this, that, or the other thing, because on my team they seemed
to—when the coach said to them, ”Toni’s here to play ball and she has a great attitude”, I
didn’t spot them as not having a good attitude and I think he was thinking at a deeper
level, they didn’t have that extra that you need to win. There was this one that I didn’t
like and I dearly love today, but I think I was a jealous little kid, I truly do, and it wasn’t
anything to do with the game itself, she just was more outspoken and kind of so self
assured and I thought she was cocky and you know, you’re raised to be kind of simple
and humble and I just didn’t like that in her. 27:02 She reminded me one time and she
said, “you got mad at me”. I use to set her hair, I use to set everybody’s hair, I was like a
little cosmetologist, cut hair and set them, I just taught myself and one time I was so
angry with her I wouldn’t set her hair and she told me that, reminded me.
Interviewer: “I think I know who that was.”
You’d like her. She’s brilliant and really, I look back and I know it was a jealousy of—
she was do self assured and what I thought was cocky was not and to this day she’s
creative and out there doing things.
Interviewer: “Did you ever set her hair again?”
Oh yes, the day after, the day after, but I don’t know if there were people that didn’t like
one another because you didn’t feel it in tensions or the like. 27:54 More respect and
very close to one another, it’s amazing on both teams.
Interviewer: “How about the fans, what’s your recollection of the fans?”
9
�Oh, they were wonderful, they were wonderful, they were concerned sometimes—there
was a boy that liked me and he followed to different towns. Oh my little heart, and he
held my hand one time and then the bus driver said, “you better watch your step Toni the
ones that are here and fly out, that are here today and then gone tomorrow”, and I didn’t
know what he was talking about. I was so innocent and I was just ignorant of anything
and I was just so flattered that he liked me. They kind of had to watch that because you
know we were young and they were followers of that. I just remember that incident and
he kind of followed, followed, followed and then would write to the hotel and things like
that. 28:57 But he was a nice kid and he wasn’t aggressive, but I think of this of our bus
driver, I was so lean and tiny and he would say, “tiny little waistline you have there Toni,
tiny little waistline”, and I often think today Oh Harold you should see me now. It’s
better now, but when I was injured I—you do gain once in a while.
Interviewer: “They do follow the game and they do follow the players and they do
want to get close to the players.”
Yeah, the fans really, really liked us and I think they were in awe because before the
game they would announce us and our ages and I think it just kind of floored them you
know that most of us—like half were—I was probably—two of us were fourteen I think
and the rest were older, but it was still relatively young if they were up to twenty and then
the older ball players that had been in the league and back and forth were older, twentyfive or whatever. 30:00 The fans were impressed and, I think, very, very floored that we
were as good as we were. We were very tough out there, I mean cleats and all, I mean
the game was played tough. I think they saw that and we didn’t throw like little girls or
whatever they say, in fact they filmed my throw at the University of Wisconsin and I had
one of the fastest women’s throw and that’s after the league. I still have that little film.
Interviewer: “I have to tell you, I played on a co-ed team at one point and one of the
best shortstops I ever played with was a young woman an incredible thrower and
exceptionally good fielder, so you learn to respect after you watch and see how well
they can play and that’s what your fans were seeing as well.” 30:50
Yeah, they did and I think they were just floored. They came out of curiosity and they
went away—we had just a lot of positive feedback in the newspapers and then more fans
came, they seemed to tell other towns, we had big crowds and they came.
Interviewer: “Did you have thousands?”
I’m not sure, I just know it was filled, so I don’t know what the capacity was and I
noticed to in the south, I was so ignorant, I grew up with a father who had such equal
respect for people and so we had—when my mother died we had a woman named
Queenie and she took care of us and we loved her, we loved her like our own mother and
she was African, so I’m in the south now and I went and sat, god forbid, on the bus I
don’t remember if they sat in the back, probably, and I went to sit in the back.
Immediately the bus driver stops the bus and said, “you have to come up here”, and I
didn’t. I did not budge, I just thought it was not right in my heart and finally he just
10
�moved the bus and I sat there and moved on. 32:01 That bothered me and the other
thing that bothered me, and I can see how prejudice is learned, the drinking fountains—
there was one for the whites and one for the and I don’t know if at that time they were
called Negroes, but it made you think that they had some disease or something and that
really bothered me because it was like teaching something that was very foreign to me, so
that’s what I noticed in the south. I also notice that we had no black players either.
Interviewer: “I was going to ask you about that?”
I didn’t see the tryouts, but obviously there were some excellent players around and I
think it was just not open.
Interviewer: “As far as I know the league never had any African American women
players. It’s interesting to me because this is just at the time that Jackie Robinson is
breaking the major league color line for the first time.” 32.57
He came right after—
Interviewer: “forty-seven he came.”
Yeah ok and I was in forty-nine, all right. Yeah see, that should have helped, but not
women probably and it wasn’t easy for him, you read those stories and you know,
nobody liking him and the fans, but that hit me, that really struck me. If you come from
the north and I was raised so respectful, I just had so much love in my heart, I went to a
school that was all white, Negro’s weren’t allowed in the grade school, but in my high
school there were. I remember giving a picture, my picture, to one of the black men and
oh, the repercussion, all my friends would come up to me and say, ”do you realize he’s
going to show it to all his friends and they’re going to thing you’re boy friend and girl
friend”, and blah, blah blah, so those things were eye openers and I’m glad that I had my
positive experience because maybe I stood for something in the south at that one bus
thing and once in the hotel too. 34:10 I remember taking some of my money and giving
money to the maid that was there because I appreciated what she did and those things
bothered me.
Interviewer: “It was a time when the United States was going through a transition
and it was not going to be an easy one we know that and we’re still grappling with
the issue, quite frankly to this day.”
Yeah, yeah
Interviewer: “Two years in the instructional league we’ll call it, or better the
barnstorming.”
No, no, instructional in a sense that they had that throughout the league. No, I think we
were sent there on a mission, a P.R. promotion, introducing it and they were selective. It
wasn’t just little nobodies, it was the cream of the crop of players and you had to be
chosen for that. The ones from the league, where they disbanded and that, they brought
special people there that would be an example and were excellent players, so it wasn’t
11
�minor. 35:10 I think we could have played against anybody in the leagues at south and
given them a run for their money.
Interviewer: “You never got a chance to play against any of the other teams?”
No, no
Interviewer: “That would have been fun. Two years and you decided--at this time
you’re just about ready to graduate from high school?”
Yes, then Parishey Bloomer Girls were knocking on the door again, so I went to play
with them and then I was on several professional softball teams I remember at the time. I
don’t know if one was named the Chicks or what, but they were trying to build, they were
trying to build their teams, so they asked Mr. Parishey if I could go on loan because they
needed to build more players, so I did that and then I was called, South Bend wanted me,
I think to play with South Bend. I think it was a team that had won one of the
championships and I don’t know if it was the South Bend Blue Sox or whatever, but it
was in South Bend. 36:13 At the time, I went for spring training and I was going at it
and I was going to enter the convent that September.
Interviewer: “You had made that decision already?”
Oh yeah, I had made that decision two years prior to that, but I was wanting to help my
father financially and do things, so I waited and did my thing and anyhow, while I was
playing out there it was like a haunting feeling that if I stayed I was not going to enter
because I had such a love for that game. All of a sudden out of the clear blue sky, I was
tormented, I was tortured there, I decided that I had to go home because if I stayed I
never would have left baseball. I didn’t know it was on its way out in the next two years
after that or one year really. I feel I signed a contract, but I at least was close or had
signed it and informed them that I had to go because I was afraid I would not enter the
convent and I made a commitment and that’s one thing I think I learned young on, when
you’re in sports, if you’re truly involved and committed, your word is your bond. 37:21
You don’t mess around, if you say you’re going to do something you do it. I said, “I’m
doing it and I felt I needed to keep my word and I didn’t think I could if I stayed on
because my heart was—I ate, slept and drank baseball.
Interviewer: “You had two loves and they weren’t compatible.”
Yeah, they wouldn’t have been at that time, so then I entered the convent.
Interviewer: “Where?”
Right in Milwaukee, St. Joseph’s Convent and I’m in fifty-five years now believe it or
not.
Interviewer: “And along the way you picked up additional education, additional
degrees.”
12
�I got a degree from Alverno College in English, history, math and education, minor with
math; they kind of mixed that in. That arose out of need, I was supposed to be a high
school teacher, so that was the English, history, and math. 38.13 Then there was a
shortage of elementary, first grade, so they sent me back to get the educational for
primary and I was sent to first grade instead of high school and spent six years doing that.
Then I went on, I wanted to do physical ed and finally they allowed me to do summer
school physical ed. I was going to get a doctorate in physical ed and back tracked on that
and completed a masters in that and then completed a doctorate in six departments and
meanwhile I got the masters, the doctorate and another masters and got all three almost
simultaneously. 38:57 That comes too in baseball, not only did I have intelligence, but I
had—they said they couldn’t keep up with my energy, so you really had work ethic, so I
completed three things, I did the two masters, I did my prelims for my PhD, and three
chapters, all kind of together and the professor said I had too much energy and too much
blah, blah, or something for them to keep up with me, but they were happy to have me.
39:25 From there I completed a masters in psychiatric social work and mental health and
ended up with three masters, the doctorate, the bachelors, and I could have had four
masters, but I decided not to do it because If I had to take another test it would have been
comps again, but I still might do that one. What I really want to do is study law and help
the cause, save the poor.
Interviewer: “I have a feeling you’ll do it.” 39:52
Yeah, I will
Interviewer: “Now, for you’re your PhD you went to the University of Wisconsin?”
Yes, the three masters and the PhD all from Wisconsin and I also taught there. I taught
there for four years.
Interviewer: “Did you—what was your involvement in sports during this time? Did
you stay involved in some way, coaching or playing at some point?”
Yes, in Madison they had all these leagues and I was in the league called the Major
Major, so I played in that and what was interesting, there were two all American
professional ball players that had been observing and they had to choose, they had to
choose one player for recognition and I forgot, it was an all Madison bla, bla, bla and it
was quite an honor and these two, Rusty was one of their names, and they chose me,
which was interesting because they didn’t know I had played. 40:51 They saw my
playing ability and then was honored and the Mayor was there and all the politicians
played, we had two teams, and I got to play out there and was helping them with how to
bat, some of them. Those things happened in Madison and I played every year and then I
was in a serious car accident and I was a passenger. While rehabbing, for three years my
back was in a brace and I had no use of this right leg, all of a sudden this tennis coach
from China came up to me and said, “Toni, Toni, I teach you tennis”, and I said, “Oh,
Mr. Chung”, and I was still in my brace you know, “I can’t” and he said, “Oh, no, no, no,
I teach you tennis”, and I picked it up and I was so good at it that—I tried taking
beginning classes and they kept putting me in advanced classes and what it was, was my
hand eye coordination and I was very fast. 41:43 I just could outrun anything.
13
�Technically I didn’t think I was that great, but I would enter all kinds of tournaments and
I would end up winning some of them, I mean I beat some number one people that were
so skilled and so beautiful, they would hit the ball and pose and while they’re posing I’m
running like some maniac hacking away keeping the ball in play. Anyhow, I got to love
tennis and then I worked so hard at it and ended up being ranked in the state, 2nd in
singles, 2nd in doubles, and 3rd in singles also, thought the years. Then I played national
tennis tournaments and loved it, loved it, loved it and I never got ranked nationally
because, even like Billie Jean King the retired pros enter that, so I played some of the
pros that had been at Wimbledon and that and I can still see myself, I said, “Toni you
have the reputation, your job is to wait, they would always say “good wheels, good
wheels Toni”, your job is to be the retriever, the Golden Retriever, for all the balls they
hit and to build them up”, anyhow they knew I was out there. 42:57
Interviewer: “If there’s anything another player hates, it’s the opponent that won’t
give up.”
That’s right, that’s true and one time the man observing and he said, my deportment was
exemplary, he said anyone else would have run off the tennis court. I playing the number
one seed and said, “you would have thought she was losing”, my attitude was so—I mean
I was out there and if she lost a point to me, I hardly won a point I kid you not, if she lost
a point she was devastated and here I was this happy little thing—people walking by,
they thought I was winning half the time and here—I learned something, she was so
miserable after the thing was over I said, “maybe you ought to think about not playing
tennis for a while”, because she was just an unhappy person. Yeah, people couldn’t tell if
I was winning or losing, but I never gave up. 43:55
Interviewer: “While you’re doing all this, getting your degrees, continuing to play
softball, playing other sports, people didn’t know that you had been a professional
baseball player at one point. Was it the movie that changed the recognition?”
It was after the movie.
Interviewer: “the movie we’re talking about is “A League of Their Own”.”
“A League of Their Own”, and I did not see the movie until in the year 2000. I didn’t
even know it existed. Like you said, “what had I done?” I was busy like really teaching
a lot of children, helping anywhere I could help, in all kinds of things, sports, everything
and also, did a lot with the poor, conducted workshops all over the country, I was flying
all over the place giving talks and this and that, so I didn’t keep up with watching TV or
anything and one day I’m watching this TV and I see this movie and I hear them singing
our song and I thought, “my God that’s our group”, and I recognized some of the people,
our players, at the end who were in the movie. 44:58 That was my first inkling of it and
that was like in 2000 and they hadn’t found me, they didn’t know where I was.
Interviewer: “Your name was different, you were a Sister.”
14
�Yes, Toni Ann Palermo and Sister—I think those who knew I entered probably thought
that I could never come out and you know, come to anything and that I was gone forever
Interviewer: “Incarceration”
Yeah, so that first experience was, I think it might be seven years now that I was really
found, found, but I forgot, was there a part of a question that I missed?
Interviewer: “I’m asking, and you’re talking about it, that the movie end up
changing your life thereafter. Once you were found.”
Yes, all of a sudden one time on television, I saw this Mary O’Meara. Mary O’Meara
was Mary Froning, who was a ball player on the, I think, the Blue Sox, a South Bend
team, and she was in Madison and I was in Madison. 45.14 I played on her co-ed team
and she had about seven or eight children, so that comprised her co-ed team, plus Mary,
plus myself. I think there were nine or ten plus her husband and that was the team. I
recognized her in tournaments, she was not on the same team I was on, in fact she was in
a lower league. I don’t know how she managed to be down there, but she was in a lower
league. We played against her and I recognized how smart she was out there and we just
took to each other, but never, never sharing that we had played, so I played on her co-ed
team, I taught her some tennis, she got involved in tennis and years go by. One day at
church she sees me, Rockford was having a mini-reunion, she seed me and said,” Toni
have you ever played professional ball?” I said, “yes”, and she said, “well, they’re
looking for you”, and I said, “oh”. All those years we knew each other and she was
going to all these reunions and never said a word because she didn’t connect it. 47:04
Interviewer: “Never put it all together.”
Excuse me for scratching my nose, but that’s how and once they found me—so that’s
how and I’m so grateful to be here with you and this beautiful group and have this
privilege.
Interviewer: “You get, I’m sure you get invitations now to speak?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “And a chance to teach?”
Yes, yes and Jackie Baumgart and I were just honored at Alverno College because she
graduated from Alverno and I graduated from Alverno and we were both in A League of
Their Own or The American Girls Professional League and it was a sports orientation or
fundraiser and we were honored and it was just about maybe a month ago or two months
ago.
Interviewer: “Do you get requests for autographs or stuff in the mail?”
Oh, signing all the time, yes a lot. People are in awe, which it really touches you because
it’s I don’t know, I’m humbled by it. I’m really humbled by it because it touches my
heart that they think enough to want our autographs at something that we love so and we
15
�were privileged to do. 48:09 I grew up where women didn’t have the opportunities.
However, in Forest Park, Chicago we had more opportunities than all these other states.
Wisconsin was way behind, so I never felt the stigma that I was a girl and couldn’t do
this and couldn’t do that. I was at every sport possible and anything I did I always
succeeded. Swimming, number three in the state and half drowning some of the time you
know, I was in everything and that’s because we had no limitations set on us and we were
privileged, but other places were not. 48:52
Interviewer: “Women had a lot of limitations, that’s for sure. As you look now
from the time you began as a professional athlete and you have a chance now to see
the changes that have gone on in sports and in women professional athletes, do have
some thoughts that you would like to share with us on what’s happened and where
we are today?”
Yeah, I’m in awe at the quality, the quality of, say in all sports, with the women. In awe
with it, because when I came up to Wisconsin I was shocked at the level, it was so bad. I
would go to the women’s basketball and it was so bad. I played before the Harlem Globe
Trotters, that’s how good we were. We had the same teams that were during the summer,
we played basketball and men’s rules at that time was, and girls rules were half court, and
we played men’s rules and we played in front of all these crowds before the Harlem
Globe Trotters. 49:57
Interviewer: “So you were a traveling basketball team?”
Yeah, and we were quality you know, nothing bad. But I came up here and I would go to
the games and I could hardly take it, it was bad, they shot poorly, they didn’t have that
technique, nothing was there, and I have watched them through the years. I am in awe; I
mean they are skilled today. I came up in 1970 and then 1970 to 1980 it wasn’t good and
yet I could see them improving, improving and I see the volleyball the same, the
basketball, softball, it is outstanding, I mean they are excellent and tough. I watch all the
time, I watch all the top teams, Tennessee and all and UConn and the women, the level
you know and I am really—I—they wouldn’t be there, something was lifted for them you
know. 50:56
Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you the question I’ve asked others and you’re kind
of leading into it, it is this. At the time, did you have an awareness that you were
pioneering as a feminist in a sense, or a female athlete and now that you have a
chance to look back, do you see that you were?”
I don’t know how many thought that because we were put into it, we were focused and
we loved it and we were so happy to be doing it that I don’t—maybe those that did not
have as much as I did in Forest Park, I had no limitations, they maybe felt like they were
pioneering, I did not think I was pioneering because I always did it, but as I look back
now it absolutely opened doors and I think and the movie, even though it was 1992, it
should have come a lot sooner to help some of the causes and I think it helped men to.
51:56 It helped young men, I think, believe in themselves and do more than they have
16
�ever done and help those that were skilled enough to get to a higher level. Now I see us
as pioneers and definitely inspired some people. I get letters from young women and it’s
touching, it’s touching and then when I meet someone and I’m signing up and it’s a little
thirteen year old and say, “you know I was playing professional softball when I was
thirteen. Now, I’m going to put a challenge to you bla, bla, bla,”, because let them see,
let them hear--here’s this little person, tiny little thing and they’re coming and I was
playing ball and I was getting at one time $75.00 a week, that was big-time.
Interviewer: “At that time it was good money and you sent most of that home?”
Oh yeah, and the coach, Norma Whitney and I, she was the second baseman and I was
shortstop, she and I were, and I don’t know if there were others, but we would send our
monies home and the coach said, “you know Toni I have to tell you, while you’re eating
hot dogs and burgers, all the others are eating steaks and why aren’t you spending money
on yourself?” 53.09 First of all I grew up with the mentality of poverty, so I didn’t think
I was starving and it was important for me to send that home. My mother had died, my
father was so distraught, and I just—it was not an issue. Yes, that was big money,
seventy-five a week for a little fourteen, fifteen year old was very respectable. All and all
the experience in the league and what it did for us personally, also, the women that you
see here, they’re tough cookies you know, so they had that mentality. A lot of them
went into professions, they were teachers, many of them were teachers, so can you
imagine what people all got? 53:56 I had that same mentality, never do things by halves,
not to be a quitter. There’s nothing like winning, I know they all say “put your guts into
it “, but if you have been in sports there is nothing like winning, I’m telling you. Like
you play three sets in tennis, killing yourself and then they say, ”well you got to the finals
and went three sets”, but I’ll tell you, losing as opposed to winning, there’s nothing like
winning that and I use to say, “why not, why not be able to win it?” What I did learn is,
in softball too when I was coaching that, don’t say, “oh, if I can only get a hit”, I said say,
“I’m going four for four tonight”, you know, shoot high. If you go four for four
mentally, you might get three hits, but if you say, “if I only get one hit”, you’re lucky if
you get a hit and that’s the same way—you know they say in tennis and in other sports,
people, play not to lose, play to win, and when you play not to lose it’s a different game.
55:05 It’s too careful, and I remember, I was in this tennis tournament and I was
winning, 5-2 and I only had two more sets to go and I remember saying, “Toni, only two
more, one at a time, only two more”, and I lost 7-5 because I altered my game. I played
not to lose and I thought just play one at a time and no, I had to have that same drive, that
same intensity. What it teaches you in life, and it’s really interesting to me, is you have
to maintain that intensity. If you watch football games and that, they can’t go four
quarters, they fade out in the fourth quarter, so the name of the game is, you have to
consistently hold it. I remember one time a ref was watching me play tennis and I was
out against the number one player in a big national tournament and running my behinder
off and I remember so distinctly that I wanted a point and it was spectacular, bam, bam,
bam, and I won the point and then afterwards the referee said, “Toni, you know what?
You have the ability to really be a winner in this, but what happens, you don’t
consistently play every point the way you played that one point”. 56:26 So, I play that
one point and maybe lose the next three and then zoom in there, so it teaches you
17
�discipline, and it really is a lost art today. The discipline of keeping going, keeping
going, not settling for less and not giving in to that, you know, that’s life. All those
principles that—you know life is not easy, right? Basically if you have the attitude and
you have the consistency of discipline, life is a lot easier and you can take the bumps and
you can kind of take the hard things and survive them and you move on, you move on.
57:02 Say, “I’ve been given this much time in life and I’m not going to let it drain me”,
we move on.
Interviewer: “I was just thinking, as an athlete, as someone who did succeed, you
can say that to others and they will listen and in that sense the league helped you, it
gave you credentials that you could use.”
Yes, yes, that’s well said. It gave me the credentials and gave this belief that we are
special and it’s imparted to the people, so we are recipients of that wonderful, wonderful
gift that people have given to us.
Interviewer: “And then you can pass it on.”
I can pass it on.
Interviewer: “Now, I think I have run out of questions, do any of the rest of you
have thoughts or areas we should cover?”
We want to give a standing ovation, clap, clap, and clap.
Interviewer: “A wonderful job, a tremendous job.”
I feel so privileged that I got to do this, really. 58:11
Interviewer: “I thought of one thing, I haven’t asked anybody about the umpires.
Do you have some thoughts on umpiring?”
Oh, let me think a minute. Of course you’re never too happy with umpping.
Interviewer: “Who were the umpires?”
They were always from the minor leagues.
Interviewer: “The umpires traveled with you?”
No, they were there.
Interviewer: “They were from the neighborhood?”
Yeah, I don’t think at that time—we were so disciplined at keeping your mouth shut that
we didn’t—you know the chaperones could do the arguing, but I do remember one time
they called a—I thought it was a balk, so I’m hollering balk, balk and thinking I should
be awarded second base and meanwhile at the fourth they called me out because they’re
tagging me out and I’m calling bla, bla, bla, I was so upset and that was the one and only
time and I really argued. 59:00 I really had an I and I just knew and I called it. Well,
you can’t call it the ump has to call it, so while I’m calling it their tagging me out and I’m
18
�just not about to move because they were in the wrong and there wasn’t a lot of arguing, I
think because we were just like a—I was thinking, Jackie Robinson, he was told to zip it
and we were told like that too because people would not have liked us if we were
combative. I think they would have liked a spirit of maybe once and a while, but it’s a
good question.
Interviewer: “I’ve seen a couple pictures-- there where a couple at the league level
that went after the umpires pretty good.”
Yeah, and I believe they did. I think we just had to for the P.R.
Interviewer: “You were ambassadors.” 60:00
Ambassadors, yeah, truly
Interviewer: “Ok”
Think of us highly now.
Interviewer: “I will never say instructional again.”
Never again and thank you so much
Interviewer: “Thank you”
19
�20
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_TPalermo
Title
A name given to the resource
Palermo, Toni (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Palermo, Toni
Description
An account of the resource
Toni Palermo was born and grew up in Forest Park, Illinois. When she was ten, her P.E. teacher encouraged her to try out for a professional softball league in Chicago. She played for a farm team until she turned fourteen when she joined the professional team. She was recruited into the All American Girls Professional Baseball League shortly afterward, and played two years with their barnstorming teams, the Chicago Colleens and the Springfield Sallies. Over the next several years she alternated between playing on AAGPBL teams and a Chicago softball team. She played shortstop throughout her career. She went on to become a nun as well as a teacher, and remained active in competitive sports.
Contributor
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Olson, Gordon (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-26
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bd0f453c3a40866bec3cf03c51eeafff.m4v
3812f027512cfff457e7406e59d022bb
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a3231b8061e3eadca4e02ed2cc105680.pdf
1fa05fc89baa431e119c9a2c0f5900d5
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
NORMA DEARFIELD, Second Base
Women in Baseball
Born: 1928 in McKeesport, Pennsylvania
Resides: White Oak, Pennsylvania
Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 7, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, October 13, 2010
Interviewer: “Can you start by giving us a little bit of background on yourself? To
begin with, where and when were you born?”
I was born in McKeesport, Pennsylvania to Mr. And Mrs. James Whitney. There were
five of us in our family and I was the second oldest.
Interviewer: “In what year were you born?”
I was born in 1928.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living then?”
Dad worked on the railroad and my mother stayed at home and was a homemaker and
took care of all of us. 1:34
Interviewer: “Now with the railroad, was your father able to keep his job then
during the depression?”
He did keep his job, but he was on what they called the extra board and he went out when
they called him and he was one of his family members that, of the men, that still really
kept their job and worked. They shared with each other, food that they had gotten from
some of the places that gave out certain foods, so they shared with each other and made it
through. 2:08
Interviewer: “How did you get involved in sports?”
1
�Well, when I was very young I always had a tennis ball, always, and I was throwing it
into the house or anywhere and catching it. I don’t know, I just liked playing ball and the
Christmas when I was about twelve years old, I asked for a baseball glove and my mother
told me that girls don’t get baseball gloves and I said, “then I don’t want anything for
Christmas, if I can’t have a glove, I don’t want anything”, so needless to say, I did have
this glove and it was the same glove I played--my dad bought me a good glove at the time
which surprised me, but it was the same glove that I still have today ad that I played in
the league with. We didn’t have organized sports at that time in our city, so we just
made up our own teams and played other cities next to us. 3:17 We played each other
and my dad was out coach and I just played until I was probably eighteen or so and after
high school I just got a job and I was working and I saw a little piece in the paper, just a
little tiny article, for tryouts in McKeesport, Pennsylvania for the All American Girls
Professional Baseball League. Well, I never had heard about it, I didn’t know anything
about it, so I called the girls on our team and I asked them, “let’s go out and see what this
is all about”, so when we got there seventy-five to a hundred girls were there from Ohio,
West Virginia and different places, so we got out there and we had to bat, field, infield,
outfield, slide into base, just everything they wanted us to do we had to do, so when it
was over they just said that they would send us a letter saying whether we made it or not.
4:30 I had gotten a letter to South Bend, myself and another girl, so then my dad and my
mother knew nothing about this league and they didn’t know if they wanted me to go by
myself, so my dad said, “I’ll go with you and I’ll stay for a few days to find out what this
is all about”. So, being that he worked on a railroad we had a pass and off we went to
Chicago to go on the train. He had a sister that lived in Gary, Indiana, so he stayed with
2
�her you know, and would come back where we were on the field and stayed with me for
three days and talked with whoever he had to talk with and felt comfortable leaving.
5:20 Then I had to tryout there. Davie Bancroft was the one that was doing it the day
that I was trying out, was coaching us. I can remember we had to go out on a field at the
position that we played and I had never had a baseball hit to me, I had softballs and the
field was shorter and the balls were bigger, so the first time I fielded the ball, I did field it
and I turned my head a little and he pointed the bat at me and said, “if you want to play in
this league you can break your nose or knock your teeth out, but don’t turn your head”.
6:13 Now I’m more nervous and I thought I better do what I know that I can do, so I did,
so then I had to do everything that they expected of us to do you know and then when
that time was over eventually, I was told that I was going to stay and I was put on the
team.
Interviewer: “So when you got to South Bend and you were doing the tryout, were
there a lot of other girls trying out at the same time or just you?”
Oh yeah, there were many of them, I don’t know how many, but there were many of them
all trying out.
Interviewer: “Did you have any sense of where they were from or how far they had
come to do this?”
Not really, at the time I didn’t know them and I really didn’t know anybody, I was just—I
felt so alone, but you make good friends with them real fast and most of them were
from—a lot of them that I was friends with were from the states around here. 7:13
Interviewer: “But basically you were just going on with your life in Pennsylvania,
what kind of a job did you have when you were there?”
3
�After school I got a job at the J.C. Murphy Co. warehouse and I worked there just filling
orders for the stores and things.
Interviewer: “The league that you were playing in, was it a women’s league or a
girls league? What was that?”
Back home? It was girls they were all girls.
Interviewer: “Did you have people actually come to watch the games or did you
just go and play?”
Oh yeah, the local people, we had not a lot, but they knew when we were playing and
they gathered around. We went to different cities close to us and played other teams
because we had to organize our own games ahead of time and schedule the women that
played. 8:16 We played from the time I started at sixteen I guess until I was called to go
to this league.
Interviewer: “What year was it that you joined the league?”
1949
Interviewer: “So now you have gotten the call and you tried out. Probably most of
those girls trying out at South Bend didn’t make the team, they had a lot of them.”
A lot of them didn’t I guess.
Interviewer: “Did they tell you right there whether you made the team or not?”
Yes, at the end of the few days that I was there. That’s when they told us if we were
placed or not and everyday we tried out and had to do something different and different
things you know.
Interviewer: “Could you hit as well as field?”
4
�I did pretty good, I had a couple triples, but I never had a home run. I was a fast runner
and I could steal bases. I batted second all the time and most of the time if I’d gone on
from hitting I knew I was going to get to second or third. 9:22
Interviewer: “I’m going to go back here. You signed up with the South Bend club
at the start of the season or was the season already going?”
At the start and I left in, I think it was May, and I didn’t come home until September. I
stayed right there the whole time.
Interviewer: “Did they have any kind of spring training before the games started or
did you just start playing games?”
Well, we had some spring training and that’s—I can’t remember what field we tried out
at, but I was over in South Bend for spring training before we started.
Interviewer: “So, they were doing their training just right there. They weren’t off
in some other location that year?”
Right
Interviewer: “When you joined the team that year, were most of the players
veteran players who had been there for a while or did they have a lot of new ones?”
10:16
Most of them were veteran players who had been there over the years, but that was
during spring training and then I was put on the touring team which were all new players.
We toured the country, more or less, to keep baseball alive.
Interviewer: “The league had two touring teams didn’t they and they would travel
around together and play each other?”
Yes, the Chicago Colleens and the Springfield Sallies.
5
�Interviewer: “Which one were you on?”
The Chicago Colleens
Interviewer: The Chicago Colleens, all right, they were all basically newer or
younger players who were doing this?”
Some were—we had one or two that were fifteen or sixteen and at that time I was
eighteen, nineteen.
Interviewer: “If it was 1949, probably twenty, twenty one. So, you were a little bit
older then?” 11:19
Older than some of them, but a lot were around my age or even older.
Interviewer: “Do you remember where you went, some of the places or states you
went to?”
We were in like thirty-eight states. We went through the Midwest and out as far as
Texas, Oklahoma, all in through some of the western states, South Carolina and Georgia,
almost all of them. I have little pennants from every state and I had one wall filled with
every city that we played in because we played in several cities in one state when we
would get there. We traveled all night.
Interviewer: “How were you getting around?”
By bus, it was like a school bus and not a very comfortable one, but we would travel
short distances some of the time and sometimes as long as two or three hundred miles to
the next city. 12:21
Interviewer: “All right now, what kind of reception did you get in the towns that
you played in?”
6
�Oh, a lot, there were a lot of people and they were very receptive to us. They had a lot—
I’m trying to think, several times we had several thousand people there for the games.
Interviewer: “Are there any particular places you went that stand out in your mind
and you went to a lot?”
Not too many because we really didn’t have time to do a lot of sightseeing or anything
like that, but we had some time during the day, but most of the time it was just play ball,
take the bus to the next town, go to bed because you didn’t sleep good because you
traveled all night and then you had to get to the Laundromat to wash the clothes that you
had. You only had a little small suitcase and you weren’t allowed to take much of
anything. 13:32
Interviewer: “This version of the league, or this part of it, how much of the sort of
rules and regulations on dress or conduct or things like that, how much of that
applied to you?”
About the same as what was in the league. We were not allowed to wear shorts or slacks
on the street. We had to have skirts on. We could change in the bus, just pull them up
and take the shorts off and put a skirt on to go out. When I was in spring training I had to
go to charm school to learn how to sit and conduct yourself sitting, walking, drinking
coffee and things like that. 14:28
Interviewer: “Was this new to you or just new to some of the other girls, having
particular rules like that to follow?
No, pretty much at home we had to “yes ma’am”, “no ma’am”, we didn’t get up from the
table unless we asked to be excused and I still did that with my kids today, so it was easy
to do.
7
�Interviewer: “Did they have rules about socializing or anything else like that? If
you were riding around on the bus all the time you didn’t need to worry about it.”
We didn’t have time to—like the girls in the league, they had more time to go out in the
evening, in the daytime rather and socialize, but we didn’t have very much time to
socialize. We were busy just playing ball. Every night we played a game including
Sunday and sometimes two on Sunday. 15:24
Interviewer: “What sort of people did you have in your audience, who would come
to watch these games?”
There were children and all sorts of people that were with them. A couple of servicemen,
you would see them in the crowd, but most of them were just families and people that
wanted to come and watch because they advertised ahead of time, so they knew. They
had our pictures in store windows and different things before we got there. 16:32
Interviewer: “Now, when you came into a town, did they ever do anything for you
or any promotional events or did you have to show up places for different things?”
Not too much, not too much because like I said, we were—by the time we would come in
most of us would try to get an hour or two of sleep because you had to try to sleep on the
bus sitting up on the straight seat. We had some free time that we could walk down the
street and look things a little bit over, but not too much, it was mostly all-Interviewer: “Alright now, you were playing in skirts right?”
Right
Interviewer: “You had these skirts etc. and you were a runner and a base stealer, so
did you have problems with “Strawberries” and all that?”
Yes I did, several times on the side from sliding, stove fingers. 17:30
8
�Interviewer: “ You’re playing on whatever playing field is available too, so were
some of them in not so good shape?”
Some of them were not real smooth, but we managed and we played on them.
Interviewer: “Did the group of you traveling together, did you kind of make a good
set of friends there, being together with these women all the time?”
Oh yeah, even though we were two teams, we were all very close and we still are today.
Interviewer: “Did you play the full season?”
Yeah, I played every game except toward the end of the season I got hit in the eye with
an elbow, actually my manager’s elbow, and I had double vision for two weeks, so I
didn’t play. Then I went back on and I played every game, so after that I played, which
resulted in an eye injury later and it stopped my playing ball. 18:37
Interviewer: “How did you get a manager’s elbow in your eye?”
We were—a bunch of us kind of fooling around and it just swung around or something, I
think it was his elbow or something and so that—that’s the only time I didn’t play.
Interviewer: “But then you did not come back for the next season?”
Well, what happened was between the two seasons I went back to work at Murphy
company, at my job, and my sister worked there also, so I was coming home, got off the
bus and was walking down the street to home and I got terrific pain in my eye and I
grabbed it, that same eye that I had—it was like a very sharp pain, so I just pulled my
eyelid down because I thought maybe I got something in my eye and I said, ok,
everything’s ok”, and we went on until I got in the house. Shortly after I thought, “I can’t
see out of this eye”, so I would hold my good eye and I’d look at my sister of my mother
or my dad and I said, “daddy, I can’t see too much out of this eye, and I had a sharp pain
9
�in it. I don’t know what’s wrong, but I can’t see very good”. 20:02 The next day he
took me to an eye doctor and he looked in it and said, “there’s something there, but I’m
not sure, I think you need to see a surgeon”, so he took me to an eye surgeon the next day
and he looked in my eye and he said, “you have a detached retina”. I didn’t know what a
detached retina was and I said, “What is that?” He said, “that means you’re going right
from here to the hospital”. I said, “oh no, I can’t” and I was dating my husband at that
time and he played “roller hockey’, so he had a game in Ohio and his birthday was
coming up and this was on a Wednesday that I was at the doctor and I said, “I can’t go,
I’ll come back on Monday”, and he said, “you’ll be operated on Friday, this is very
serious and we’ve got to get this taken care of”, so I was operated on Friday and I laid
thirty three days in a hospital with both eyes bandaged, they had to tell me when to open
my mouth and feed me, I couldn’t move, my bed was flat, my head was hurting, my dad
tried to get a little thin air pillow and they said absolutely not. 21:24 Back then you laid
all that time, so the last day I was ready to come home and the doctor sat on the bed
beside me, at the time I knew I was going to go to south Bend up in the league, so he
said, “your dad tells me that you play baseball?”, and I said, “yeah and I’m excited
because this year I’m going up in the league”, and he said, “I just hate to tell you this, but
you’re not going to be able to play baseball any more”, and I said, “oh yeah, I’m going to,
I have to you know”, and he said, “If you do you’ll have, if it detaches again, little or no
eyesight in that eye”. 22:18 Naturally my parents did not allow me to go and that kind
of ended my baseball career, which was very devastating. I really, really wanted to go
especially up in the lake you know, even though I enjoyed where I was, everything we
did. Then I had to wear those big pin point glasses with the little dot for about two
10
�months after and I was led around like a—my dad had to build a box so my plate would
sit level and I wasn’t allowed to—if I sneezed I had to hold my head. I had a whole list
of do’s and don’ts. So, I guess at that time, so now when I go for new glasses my doctor
said, “Norma, if you had that detached retina today you would be playing ball in two
weeks because they glue it”, so that was the end of my career, but I’ve come to all the
reunions and stayed in touch with all the girls. 23:16
Interviewer: “Did you stay in touch with the girls immediately after you left or did
you connect after the organization formed?”
That’s part of it, I mostly was with the girls that I knew from the two teams, but the more
I came to the reunions I got to know everybody, so we just talk to anybody that comes
past.
Interviewer: “Once you stopped having to wear pin point glasses and all that kind
of thing, did you go get married then or what did you do?”
Shortly after, well no, we dated for a couple of years and after that he and my dad came
out a couple places to see me while we were dating. We played in Springfield, Ohio and
one place in Pennsylvania and I just—yeah, we dated and then after three years of that we
ended up getting married and I had four children and now I have ten grandchildren and
three great grandsons. 24:30
Interviewer: “In this case your husband knew you played ball, and did your family
know that, did your friends know that because a lot of players just went off and
nobody knew they had ever done that?”
Well, I don’t think anybody like in the city or anything like that really knew. My family
knew, in fact when we were in Pennsylvania and Ohio a couple of them came there to see
11
�us play, but it wasn’t until after the movie that kind of—even myself I just went off, got
married, raised kids and I never worked after that and it just went on until I got a letter
one day to come to the film if I wanted to, so I went and I played in the movie. I played
second base at the end of the movie and other than that it was just life after baseball.
25:34
Interviewer: “Aside from getting an elbow in your eye, how do you think that
experience affected you? Did it change you at all or did you take anything with it?”
With what?
Interviewer: “The experience of playing in the league for that year.”
You mean—I’m not understanding.
Interviewer: “Well, basically the experience of having played professional baseball
for a year and going around with those teams and that kind of thing. Do you think
that had any kind of a lasting effect on you and did you learn something from it or
gain something from it that stayed with you?”
Well, you were just—when you were finished playing ball that was just the end of it. It
seemed like—it didn’t do anything after that and like I said, I got married shortly after
and just went on. It was just a lot of friendship that we made and I’ve kept them over the
years and I still keep in close contact with several of them mostly talking on the phone.
26:52
Interviewer: “It got sort of into the seventies and the eighties and you had things
like Title IX coming in and you actually had an effort to recruit girls into organized
sports and this kind of thing, did you pay much attention to that?”
12
�Yes, I coached girls softball and was on the board of directors of the McKeesport Board
Association which then was starting to be organized sports, but I coached girls softball
for several years until—I even had to take the children with me, not when they were little
I didn’t get involved, but when they started getting bigger I got involved in sports and
like I said, I did coach girls softball and then stayed involved for a while in this
organization with them trying to get other fields because they didn’t have a lot for girls,
back in our town it was all boys. 27:56 Where I tried out at our local park in
McKeesport the park had a lot of property there we worked hard trying to—we wanted
to have a whole complex like four fields maybe and concession stands and that and we
got a lot of people to donate equipment and everything, but you know they—it just
wouldn’t go, they just blocked us in different ways. I guess it was going to cost them a
lot of money, the city, but we had a lot of volunteers, but it didn’t work out. 28:43 then
baseball just—you know you got older and kind of—I mean I’m still very, I mean I never
miss a game from the Pirates not seeing them, and I mean I do see several and I’ll watch
them and they will say, “are you still watching them Pittsburgh Pirates?” and I say, “well,
yeah”, it’s the only team we have, so I have to root them on.
29:03
Interviewer: “ I’m afraid I’ve been a Cubs fan all my life, so I know something
about following futility.”
You know what, when my daughter—my son-in law is an oral surgeon and he did his
oral surgery residency down at Charleston South Carolina and I would go down there and
the only two teams I could see was the Cubs or the Atlanta Braves, so I was—I have
13
�relatives in Ohio and Indiana, so I’m kind of like a Cub fan also because that’s what I
watched when I was down there and that’s what they would watch. 29:54
Interviewer: “At least the Pirates have won a few world series in the past century,
so—to think back to the year you spent traveling around with the Colleens, are
there particular people who stand out in your memory? Are there particularly good
friends that you made and spent a lot of time with?”
There are several that I have stayed real close with, Toni Palermo, she was a shortstop, so
she and I had a combination there and there are several that I have kept in contact with at,
Jane Moffet, in fact I was up in New Jersey three weeks ago for—they were honoring her
for her life more or less, before baseball, during baseball and also her eightieth birthday
party, so there were about eight girls up there and they were the ones that were real close
here at reunions. I do, I stay in touch with a lot of them yet. 30:59
Interviewer: “Are there anything that happened, any particular moments in any of
those games that stand out in your mind?”
One game stands out in my memory, we were losing and two were on base and I got a
triple and won the game more or less, so you have memories like that and you kind of
clear the bases, but I wasn’t real big, so I wasn’t strong enough to get some of the home
runs, but I did have a couple triples, but it was mostly singles and doubles and things like
that. 31:42
Interviewer: “Were you a good defensive player?”
Yes, I felt I was
Interviewer: “So, you could turn a double play?”
Yes and Toni was really good at that too.
14
�Interviewer: “She’s a dynamic character, we talked to her last year some. All right,
anything you would like to add to the record here before we close out the
interview?”
No, just that the memories have lasted forever playing ball. Like I said, we lost the part
we weren’t together, but you never forgot those days and the friends even before the
movie we were still friends with some of them and we still are. It’s sad when every year
we’re losing so many of them now, but I still keep pretty active. I go to aerobics four
days a week, I most days for an hour, I don’t know how far I walk, but I walk for about
an hour and I do a lot of volunteer work taking older people to their doctors appointments
and helping kids do thing, so I stay pretty active. 33:05
Interviewer: “That’s pretty impressive and thank you very much for coming and
talking to us.”
Well, I enjoyed it.
:
15
�16
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_NDearfield
Title
A name given to the resource
Dearfield, Norma (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dearfield, Norma
Description
An account of the resource
Norma Dearfield was born in McKeesport, Pennsylvania in 1928. She talked her parents into giving her a baseball glove for Christmas when she was twelve, and played on local girls' teams while in high school. She saw an ad in the newspaper for tryouts for the All Americans in the spring of 1949, and played all that summer for the Chicago Colleens on their barnstorming tour. She played second base, batted second and stole a lot of bases. An eye injury at the end of the season ended her professional career, but she later coached girls' softball teams in her home town.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2010-08-05
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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video/mp4
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/edf6ea96ce3a3b8d27b8aa8486091ae9.m4v
516fe0549183d38c91a9a8edb4954cfb
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/278bfd3f3ddb49309938f0317af82d00.pdf
4a152365e58ab35fb6c00d81193c56f3
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Mary Pratt
Length of Interview: (00:55:55)
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
MARY PRATT, Pitcher
Women in Baseball
Born: Bridgeport Connecticut 1918
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27, 2009,
Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, June 11, 2010
Interviewer: “If we can begin with your name and where and when were you
born?”
My name is Mary Pratt and I was born in Bridgeport, Connecticut in 1918.
Interviewer: “Shat was your early childhood like?”
My early childhood, I would say, would be up until the time that we left Connecticut and
came up to Massachusetts because my dad had been working down in Groton,
Connecticut on the submarines and all of a sudden the war was over, so he became a
Certified Public Accountant and then came the depression, so I have been able to be a
part, in my lifetime, of going through those eras. :56 In 1926, I believe, we all came
back to where my dad was an only child up in Quincy, Massachusetts and there I went
into junior high school.
Interviewer: “Before high school, when did you first start getting involved in
sports? Was it any kind of sports or was it baseball first?”
Well, it was anything that the boys would let me join in and so I would go over, this was
down in Connecticut, I would go over into the back yard of the boys across the way who
had that familiar peach basket and they would let me shoot. It’s a thing that I will never
regret and even though I’m looking for the girls to get more leadership roles, but if it
wasn’t for the boys who gave me the opportunity and mother never said no as long as she
knew where I was she let me go right along and it was the boys, see I grew up in an era
where there were few opportunities for girls especially where I lived on the east coast of
the U.S.A. 1:57
Interviewer: “What was the appeal of baseball early on, not later, but early on?
What was the appeal of baseball?”
1
�Well, it was just the fact that—when I look back I often wonder, “Why did I just all of a
sudden start pitching and playing with the boys?” I think I maybe just had a normal way
of throwing and maybe it just came to me naturally and as a result they let me play and
that continued right on until I’m getting out of college and still playing with the boys.
2:26
Interviewer: “Now you did graduate from high school?”
I graduated from North Quincy High School, the class of 1936.
Interviewer: “What happened after that? Where were you going after that?”
After that—I always had in my mind that I wanted to go on to college and I want to
become a physical educator. As I look back now, never realizing that I was going to be a
teacher and I didn’t really realize what were the hardships that I was going to follow
through because everything that I got in my undergraduate wasn’t going to be—it would
help me a little bit, but it wasn’t going to be the thing that enabled me then to teach that
whole vast area of physical education and in the end to be working in special needs. 3:14
Interviewer: “So, what university did you decide to go to?”
I went to Boston University and Sargent College, which is a unit in the university and it
was then over in Cambridge right next to the Harvard tennis courts. It wasn’t until the
fifties that the university took Sargent and we went on to the campus on Commonwealth
Avenue. I graduated from college in 1940 and was so fortunate that in 1941 I would get
a position for eleven hundred dollars, twenty-seven fifty a week, but I thought I had the
world with a fence around it. I had gotten a permanent job. 4:02
Interviewer: “While you were in college though, you started playing ball, is that
right?”
Well, I always remained active, but see I was still going through college where there was
not any collegiate competition for girls, but we did have a wide and a broad program
where I got introduced to lacrosse, to field hockey, to the things that I had never had in
high school because in high school it was just all intramurals. 4:34
Interviewer: “Now, did you play softball in college?”
Well, I played softball in college because in 1939 I got word that Walter Brown, who
owned the Boston Garden, wanted to do something in the summer and there had never
been much going on and all of a sudden I heard that he was going to sponsor a team and
then I walked to the Boston Garden and walked out to short stop and of course I was a
“lefty” and they said to me, “you know you can’t play short stop, you’re a lefty”, so I
went home and there was a gentleman who had just come off the last boat from Ireland
and there curling was quite similar to the way we pitched softball and I was always quite
2
�determined, so I went out in the back yard and practiced with my father and pitched in the
Boston Garden in 1939, and in 1940 it was an honor to think that Walter Brown took us
down to Madison Square Garden and we played in New York. 5:32
Interviewer: “What kind of a team was that? Was it a women’s team?”
It was a women’s team and it really was not a league. Some places like New York we
heard did have leagues between New York and Connecticut, but this was just something
that Mr. Brown did. He actually made up a schedule—well, we played in a lot of
different places, but we were not playing in a regular league. 5:58
Interviewer: “In college you knew you wanted to be in physical education, beyond
that did you think in terms of being a teacher in a high school? What were your
goals at that time?”
It really wasn’t, it was just a thought that I wanted to teach physical education. I never
really knew what teaching was all about and I had to learn the hard way, but I just found
that through physical education I was indirectly teaching a child how to take care of
themselves and I hope that I was an example for them and that I wasn’t just teaching
them a lot of theory. 6:41
Interviewer: “Now, first of all you were a left hander and you were playing
shortstop and then turned into a pitcher?”
I was a lefty, a long arm they call it. Yes, because they told me that the extra step that I
would have to take to get my body in position to throw over to first would be the step that
I would lose the runner, so I took to pitching, but prior to that I had always played with
the boys on the playgrounds and so I always threw overhand, so they understood what I
was doing when I was pitching, but of course when I went to get into the All American it
was softball style pitching. 7:28
Interviewer: “We’ll get to that. Now, The Boston Olympets?”
The Olympets, the Limpets was the Boston Garden semi-pro hockey team and they had
the Boston Olympets, which was us. I played for two seasons there, 1939 and 1940.
They took the diamond and put it on a diagonal and they put a post down by first base
and as a lefty you could quite readily hit into the stands, but that would only go for a
single, but to hit it to left field was a long, long distance at the garden. 8:09
Interviewer: “You did finally graduate and got a degree, what were you thinking
you were going to do next? What were your plans once you got your degree?”
I got my bachelors degree. 1940, I just wanted to be sure I could get a position and at the
beginning I didn’t my first year, but I had taken up officiating and that filled the void a
little tiny bit and I went to one of the private schools, an academy there in Braintree and I
did their after school program. In 1941 I signed on with Quincy and continued my
officiating for fifty years because see, there were no opportunities for me to coach. 8:50
3
�Interviewer: “1941, December, do you remember where you were on Pearl Harbor
day?”
Oh that’s right, not only did thoughts come back to what is it thirty years later I go out to
the Pacific and go to where I saw where the—the boat was still down there where it was
sunk.
Interviewer: “Do you remember Pearl Harbor Day and where you were?”
I remember it and I remember people were celebrating and I say the same thing, I was so
busy working and teaching school and being wrapped up in my officiating and then
starting to get in with my alumni associations that it never appeared to me that I was
losing out on everything, I was just constantly active, mostly in elementary and then
eventually they added the junior high and eventually I left the public schools and went on
to the colleges. 9:50
Interviewer: “We’re going to back up now, 1943, I think you got an invitation of
some kind?”
Oh, I got that nice call and Ralph Wheeler, he was the schoolboy editor for the Boston
Herald and he apparently had been contacted to see if there was anyone in this area who
had played a little organized ball. Dotty Green, who has now passed on, Dotty was from
Natick and she had played with me in the garden and she had already got out to Chicago,
so she must have mentioned my name and Ralph Wheeler asked me if I would want to go
out to Chicago and here I had been making twenty-seven fifty teaching school and I was
offered sixty dollars to play ball and to think that when I arrived in Chicago after getting
off the nights sleeper they could have sent me to South Band, they could have sent me to
Kenosha, they could have sent me to Racine and where did they send me, to Rockford
and I became a Rockford Peach in July of 1943. 11:02
Interviewer: “Now the Rockford Peaches, that was one of the original teams.”
One of the original teams and when they put me on the night sleeper and I got out to
Chicago I met Mr. Salls at the Merchandise Mart and Mr. Salls had been Mr. Wrigley’s
right hand man and he must have gotten me on another train and I landed at the 15th
Avenue stadium and I had become a Rockford Peach and sixty years later Penny
Marshall made a movie and it centered around the Rockford Peaches . 11:39
Interviewer: “I want you to go back to that day when you first walked on the field
as a Rockford Peach. Do you remember that?”
I was very humble because see, I had never really had much competition and who did I
run into? All the California girls and Canadians who couldn’t understand why I had
never had the opportunity to be in league competition, so when I got there in 1943 so
many outstanding girls from California and then in 1944 along come the Californians
who had also played a lot, so we on the east coast, I think, did well to be able to fit into
4
�that style of play and to think that I was able to play for Marty McManus who had
managed the Boston Red Sox and Johnny Gottselig who was a Chicago Blackhawk
hockey player. 12:37 It was the start of a wonderful experience that I just never will
forget.
Interviewer: “What were your first games like? Did you start pitching right
away?”
I was pitching—I’m short and I wasn’t that great a hitter, so I didn’t get off of outfield or
first base, but as I look back on it, I don’t know how it was that I wasn’t kind of scared ,
but it’s just that I’ve always had enough interest in sports to know that you don’t do
anything by yourself and maybe that attitude came across to some of the girls that I
played with because some of the girls that I played against, pitchers, they were
outstanding, they had brought so much experience into the league, but I’ve always
listened and I knew some day I might coach, so I listened to those coaches and we had
outstanding coaches and I learned so much from them. 13:30
Interviewer: “In 1943 they weren’t pitching overhand and you had been pitching
overhand, is that correct?”
Oh, when I was playing with the boys on the regular playground, that was overhand
pitching, but when I played in the garden, that was softball style.
Interviewer: “How was it in 1943? How were you pitching in 1943?”
In 1943, when I got out to Rockford, I pitched—as I look back there were variations of
“windmill” and “slingshot” and I think I was just doing the traditional “windmill” where
as I noticed the Canadian girls, they used that same old “figure eight”, but I just watched
because whether I knew that I was going to go into a profession that maybe had the sport.
I had to wait a long time because they wouldn’t let the girls coach, but it eventually came
and all that helped me as I went along and finally got some girls into ASA competition
and into a world tournament. 14:44
Interviewer: “Now, I realize looking back on it you can make lots of recognition of
what you accomplished, but while you were playing in 1943, did you have any idea
that this was going to go on another year or two years?”
No, because they signed us to contracts every year, so in 1943 as I said, I’d just got
assigned to Rockford, but I was new and as I look back at it I didn’t have what you would
call a good record, but I think the coaches always used to notice that I was really
interested and if they wanted someone to coach down on first, I would go. In 1944 I had
the opportunity to get out on time for spring training and in 1943 I didn’t. The season
had been going for about three or four weeks. In 1944 I had a chance to go out to spring
training where we all trained together and I found out that I was again going to be
assigned to Rockford. 15:44 A few weeks into the season, Mr. Wrigley, although I
never met him, but I heard of the various rules and regulations he made. We belonged to
5
�them, so if anything happened we were asked to go to another team and see, we were
playing a hundred and twenty-five games, so we carried four pitchers and when I was at
Rockford, all of a sudden I got word that I was being sent over to Kenosha because two
of their pitchers were hurt, but little did I know that I was going to go Kenosha and play
for Marty McManus, who had managed the Boston Red Sox and they played behind me
and that’s why I say, “you don’t do it by yourself”, and I won twenty-one games in 1944,
but I never had a good season after that. 16:31
Interviewer: “We’re jumping ahead here, so lets go back a little bit. Now, in the
early days, in 1943, there was more than just playing baseball, did you go through
the etiquette?”
Oh, we went—when Helena Rubenstein came in and we learned how to walk properly
and how to keep our hair nice. Many things weren’t popular then, but when I saw the
uniform—see I had just started to teach school, and the uniform was so much like the
uniform I wore when I was teaching. Four inches above the knee and just like in the
movie, it was the peach color and to think that I had the opportunity when I was at
Cooperstown to have Mr. Salls interview me, with some people down in New York, and
to hear him say, “Mr. Wrigley gave me a hundred thousand dollars to go around the
country to bring into his league girls that were ladies. I think that’s why we heard that we
were going to look like ladies, dress like ladies and act like ladies. 17:42 It made a great
hit with me because that’s the type of uniform that I was wearing. Now, they were four
inches above the knee, but as the years went on I noticed that they got a little shorter, but
it just reminded me how I had just started teaching and that I was going to be able to
combine this activity, that I had never had a chance to do because see—I came through
Sargent College when I then began to play lacrosse and I played against the British when
they would come over here and to think that’s become such a popular sport today, but it’s
just that I’ve been a part of being able to see the programs for the girls expand, but I’m
still looking for our girls to get the leadership roles, which I think they so deserve. 18:33
Interviewer: “I want to go into some of the details of how you were actually
recruited. Remember this is for the archives and we’re trying to get the exact
details. How were you actually recruited and then was there a contract that you
signed? How did you get your uniforms? Did they fit you? Walk us through that
process before you actually went out to play?”
As I said, we had played in the garden and Dottie Green, who was a catcher, a tall girl,
Dottie apparently had already gone out there and she said something that’s when I got the
call in school from Ralph Wheeler, but I had to wait until school finished because they
had started in May and I don’t know when I signed the contract. I must have signed it
before I left, but I’ve got it today with the sixty dollars right on it and I keep it along with
the rest of my memorabilia. 19:32 As soon as school got out they assigned me to a
sleeper and I went out on a night sleeper and I got out to the Merchandise Mart and Mr.
Salls, who was Mr. Wrigley’s right hand man--I never met Mr. Wrigley, he was the one
that met me and got me on another form of transportation and got me out to Rockford.
19:55 I know then that I must have signed the contract then because they made
6
�arrangements, they gave me my uniform. We had chaperones and she would take care of
our uniforms and she would give us our paycheck each week and then when we were on
the road we lived in nice hotels and they gave us two dollars and eighty-five cents, but we
would go to McDonald’s, which was then Alexander’s and I could get my cheeseburger
and my French fries and a coke for twenty-five cents. I could send my money home to
save, so in 1947 I drove my first brand new car out in 1947 to Rockford. 20:39 They
treated us just so well—the movie, some people were upset because they thought the
movie was going to maybe portray things not exactly the way it was, but they spoke to
Penny Marshall and she assured them. She said, “I’m not doing a documentary, I’m
doing a story about something that happened sixty years ago, so I’ll take a few liberties”,
which she did, but I could tell it never spoiled it because that movie continues to be
shown over and over again. And to think that I was just a small part of it and because of
the way they ran that league I say it and I really mean it, “there’s nothing today in 2009
that yet will equate to what Mr. Wrigley did when he got together with Branch Rickey
and decided that maybe it was the time to do something”. 21:37 The boys were going
off in the service and so when I went to Rockford of course, Camp Grant was right near
there and they use to come over and tell us that we were making better money than they
were making. As I look back, just a—I was just in the right place at the right time and to
think as I go and talk to the kiddo’s about my experience and let them know it’s the
friends that I made all over the country and that’s what sports is all about. 22:03
Baseball’s America, so they took to that game that we were playing.
Interviewer: “Did you actually have to go through a charm school? Tell us about
that, what was that like?”
Yes, we went to charm school because we all trained together for the two or three weeks
that we were there and every night we would have inter squad games and one night
Helena Rubenstein’s ladies came in. Sometimes I smile because I think they kind of
portrayed it almost the same way in the movie, but it was just a case to think that Mr.
Wrigley had it in his mind that we were going to dress like ladies and look like ladies and
of course that’s the thing that I—people always had the impression that if you loved
sports you were masculine and that use to break my heart because I was always so fussy
about making all my lady like things. The league was great and I’ve heard some
California girls and some of the Canadians sometime complain that they always played in
shorts, they never played in a skirt, but see, it fit into the philosophy that he had and the
only thing that was difficult with the lefty’s, we had to pin our skirt over so as you went
by you wouldn’t be hitting your skirt. 23:23 I will remember us walking with the books
on our heads and them talking about the mascara and they played it up in the movie and I
can tell people that it was true. They had the best intentions and yet the Midwest and the
California girls and the Canadians, they had competed. Not us in the east, but I still think
that the part that we see where one of the players thought that she wouldn’t play if she
was going to have to wear that uniform and in the movie he says, “well, you’ll either play
with that or you won’t play at all”. I thought it was so great that when I came home and I
had girls ask me if I would coach, this was outside of school, and I asked them, “would
you wear the same uniform, the type that we wore?” I said, “I don’t care if you don’t
slide”, because we would get strawberries because we just had little tights, but they went
7
�along with me, and my mother and I went down and we made those uniforms. In a world
tournament some of the girls from Japan happened to say to us when they saw us walking
out on the field, “what, you going to a dance?” 24:31 I thought, and I still feel that way,
girls must portray the image that we are young ladies and now as I see it advancing and
we see how skilled the girls are, six-two, six-four, when I go over to Harvard and I see
them playing BC, those girls can run like deer.
Interviewer: “Now, you mentioned that in your second time around you actually
did get a chance to go to spring training, but you missed out the first time. Once
again we’re trying to get this for the record because none of us were there, so tell us
about what happened during spring training? Give us a visual, what did you see?”
It portrayed a little bit like they portrayed in the movie, but we didn’t train there, we
trained in LaSalle and Peru in Indiana and what all would have been like the eight teams,
we all trained there like they depicted in the movie. 25:34 You really went through
spring training with the idea you didn’t know just exactly who you were going to get
assigned to and during the day there were all the skill drills and at night they would have
inter-squad games and after the inter-squad games, that’s when we would go in and they
came in from Chicago and showed us how to cross our legs and not to pile our dishes up
when we went out because—that’s one thing that I will remember, that we were looked
upon so highly by the fraternal organizations and there were a few girls that were a little
younger and they might have possibly with the Rotary Club and the Elks, want to get
there and pile their dishes, but I just thought it was so great to think that they thought of
all those extra things for us to do. 26:20 To be sure that we were in and night and gave
us an hour or so after the games and the chaperones were there to see that we did the right
things and I was never anyone who was too sociably inclined, so I wanted to carve my
scrapbooks and wanted to collect my articles, so when the games were over I would go
back up into my room, and we were on the road and I made those books that are all part
of my memorabilia today. 26:48
Interviewer: “Tell us about your chaperone, when you were with the Peaches.”
Oh yes, one of my chaperones was Marie Timm, a schoolteacher from Milwaukee, West
Allis, and she dressed just like we did. She wore the same uniform, but the next year
they went more like an airline hostess and they had the white coats with the red jackets
and after I went over to Kenosha I left Marie Timm, but I went and I had a new
chaperone who had met Marty McManus and that’s how she got the job with Marty. It
was then, when we were at Kenosha, that that opportunity came for us to go to Wrigley
Field to play for the service and four of the teams went into Wrigley Field and we were
the first people who played under the lights because they put all the portable lights up and
every time I recount all the experience I had, I think wasn’t it unique to have a thing run
so top notch and the fellows that would be at Camp Grant and it would be at the naval
station when we would be going down past the U.S. naval station going down to South
Bend. 28:04 To think that they kept everything so kind of high class and I think that’s
the reason why, coupled with the fact that Penny Marshal is so skilled, she had been able
8
�to make that movie and it is shown time and time again and I was just a small little part of
it. 28:23
Interviewer: “After the spring training you went through and all the teams were in
one place, did you already know what team you were playing on?”
No, after the end of spring training they announced where we were going. A little bit like
they depicted it in the movie, but there was no question as to what uniforms we were
going to wear. I never heard anybody say anything and I’ve got the pictures where we all
assigned and the big buses all came and off we went to our towns. We trained in
LaSalle/Peru, twin cities in Illinois. 29:04
Interviewer: “What was the typical season like? How many games did you play?
Were they daytime?”
A hundred and twenty-five games and I shouldn’t do it, but sometimes I look today and
see how the boys are treated well. They can’t pitch nine innings and to think that we had
our strawberries and we were playing every night, so we must have got a few aches and
pains, but I think everybody will tell you that we were having so much fun and it was
such a unique thing even though the California girls and the Canadians all came in with
experience. 29:38
Interviewer: “Now, in the very early days what were the fans like?”
Great, Olive Little from Canada loved olives and they would bring her big bottles. They
were very good to us and of course the fraternal organizations always had us in for the
noon luncheons they were having. Even at the end when we had our first reunion in
Chicago in 1982 I think it was 1982, we had some fans even coming then, who
remembered what we had done and now as we’ve grown into an organization and we’re
now in Milwaukee—the last time we were in Milwaukee they must have gotten
Johnson’s Wax to put up some money. They took us on side trips to Racine and to
Kenosha and to think that so many of the Racine people came in to see their players.
30:33 Racine had been fortunate enough to be able to maintain their players, so when the
league got up to the time where some of the teams were dropping out, Racine still had
about eight of their originals, but it was a little—kind of shady because, but they had that
loyalty with the Racine fans and to think that years later the fans came back and
remembered us. We started with reunions every two years, now they’re every year and to
think when they start to make—they were trying to see if perhaps Cooperstown would
look favorably upon us, not to be inducted, but to be—and to think that when Ted
Spencer saw the names of all the girls that had played here was this gym teacher that he
had had in grammar school and Ted has just recently retired, so every time I go up to
Cooperstown I think how Ted would say and some of the others, “you’re the one that
flunked him because he didn’t have his white sneakers”. 31:40 To think that we did get
recognized in 1988, didn’t get inducted and I think some women took it—I think they
thought we should have, but no it’s a mans organization and by doing things in a nice
positive way, which we did, and to think we now have a statue on the side lawn and the
9
�little display we had has been expanded to include the “Silver Bullets” that came along
after we had finished and Boston College and all those way back when, were playing a
little competitive softball. 32:17
Interviewer: “You were talking about the season then with the Peaches, but then
you moved on to Kenosha. Why or how did that happen?”
The Kenosha Comets, and that’s because we carried four pitchers and Helen Nichol, Fox
McKanda, one of the most outstanding, and Elise Harney, a girl from Illinois, they had
come up with some sore arms or something and so, we carried four pitchers and that’s
when I was told to go over there. In due time Harney and Nicky they were fine and we
carried on with four pitchers and one of the girls who is with me today at our second
reunion in Milwaukee, Rose Foldra. Rose, who had won a scholarship--they were
offering scholarships and Rose had won a scholarship, but somehow as things happen,
she met the right person, she got in his truck with him and out she went and to this day,
out to Carnation, Washington. 33:16 She only played the one year, but when the movie
came out she wrote me a letter and wondered if by any chance I remembered her because
we roomed together in Kenosha. To think the years have gone on and Rose today has
come to our reunion today in Milwaukee.
Interviewer: “Now, you said you roomed together, as a group then you would travel
by bus? How did you get from town to town?”
We went on the buses after our second year. The first two years we had our bags and if
you recall the four teams were all in a ninety mile radius of Chicago, so as I tell people
that when we were going through the streets of Chicago to catch the rapid transit to go to
South Bend we would all be singing, “Oh we hail from Illinois it’s just across the line,
we’re not too young, we’re not too old, in fact we’re in our prime, Oh we hit the ball
with might, in fielding we are fast, we are the Rockford ball club and we always dress in
class, so we never kick the gong and we’re always on our toes, not only in the ball park ,
but when we’re with our bows. Oh. We’re in bed by ten o’clock that is a dirty lie, we are
the Rockford ball club a model do or die”, and we’d be clapping and I always remember
the words. 34:35 It reminded me so much of my training when I was going to B.U.
because I had to go four months to camp to get a lot of the outside things and it’s a
wonderful life and as I look back, it’s the memories that I have and I can still remain
active enough to be able to follow through on so many places that invite me to come and
speak. 35:00 I stood in front of children , but I never stood in front of adults and to think
of the wonderful experience I’ve had and to be able to go to all these four hundred places
and be a part of Fan Fest.
Interviewer: “Let’s get again to the actual routines of a typical season let’s say, with
Kenosha. Before you traveled by bus?”
We were going by Inter-Urban and then we went by bus, so then we would drive on the
bus all night and then go into the town because most towns we went into, you stayed
there for three or four games. They didn’t like us going up to Lake Geneva and that to
10
�swim because they thought we should take care of ourselves. Many a time we had
workouts in the morning, especially when we were home, but it was conducted in such an
outstanding way and the fact that we were invited to the
elks and Kiwanis, I just thought it was—
Interviewer: “I want to get into the actual—so somebody that didn’t know anything
about your experience—you’re traveling by bus all night, you arrive in the city,
what happens?” 36:11
At five o’clock we would report—we would have been assigned to our hotel rooms,
because they all knew the rooms we were going to be in, and then we would head out at
five o’clock to have a batting practice and do infield and then we would play sometimes
double headers, but we most often played single games, but on Sundays we would play a
double header and especially in Racine. They would play in the afternoon because they
had an overhead structure like the little bit that was portrayed in the movie, but otherwise
we tried to play mostly the games at seven o’clock, so you wouldn’t be in the heat of the
sun. they divided the season in half and the winner of the first half played the winner of
the second and when I was in Kenosha we did happen to make the playoffs, but in the
first round they played a round robin and we lost out, but that’s alright because I could
call back to the school department to say that I’d be back on time because we were out.
37:13 We then started the reunions. A girl that had been a bat girl, and it had always
been her desire because I read things that someday she would be able to play, and it
ended up that she was the one to organize our first reunion in Chicago, which we began
to have every two years, but as girls passes on we have them just one year, but to think
that I would go to my first one in Chicago and there I would see Audrey Wagner, now a
Gynecologist and an Obstetrician. She had taken the money—she was from Bensenville
in Illinois and when we would go to South Bend you could just turn your head once and
you’d be through the little town, but she went on to medical school and when I saw her at
our first reunion she said, “yes, if I ever come to Boston Pratty, I’ll come and see you
because I fly my own airplane”, and that season, if she and her nurse didn’t get caught in
a wind pocket and got killed. Audrey Wagner, one of the most outstanding ball players.
38:19
Interviewer: “What would you say are some of the highlights of your time with the
original team, with Rockford?”
The highlights? I think the highlight would be what I did in 1944. I did win twenty-one
games and I did pitch a no hitter, but I still have to emphasize that you don’t do it by
yourself, your team played behind you. I’ve always felt that way and I think that’s why
when I went to Kenosha they readily accepted me, so it’s something, I can’t say it was in
my bringing up, but my love of sports let me realize, even when I went to teach, I can
teach a person to think, I’m not going to go out there and make the plays for you and I
think it’s that I was always just so wrapped up in how you do things and if you do things
the right way and if you think ahead of time and that’s what I try to get across when I go
to the schools. 39:18 It’s more than just winning games and having a good record. It’s
just the friendships that you’ve gained and the people that you’ve taught and now that
11
�I’m in my nineties I find that people that I had in school remember me. It’s very
rewarding although I wish I would have met the right fella and married, but I ended up an
old maid school teacher for forty eight years, but I taught at every level and then the last
twenty we were doing a lot as what is being done today to realize children, if their not
doing well academically there’s something wrong and we can’t be that authoritative
teacher that just says their going to---to find out that I worked physical education, motor
development, start to get that body going and it’s funny how that—you don’t become Phi
Beta Kappa, but you’re not flunking everything. 40:14 I think that’s what helped me so
much and I thought that last twenty years was great and today running into children who
are coming from disoriented families and to think, through the avenue of physical
education and where I don’t like to say it, sometimes the men are still just throwing out
the ball and I don’t think that’s what physical education is.
Interviewer: “I found something very interesting while I was doing some research
on your particular story and that is, all through this interview you talked about how
much you loved school and loved teaching, you loved school, but in 1946 your school
wouldn’t release you for spring training. What happened?” 40:59
I quit and I know my mother wouldn’t care, but I remember going to my principal and he
said to me, “Mary you wouldn’t drop your job”, so I said, “no, don’t you look up to
Bobby Doerr and Ted Williams?” I so admired the men—just the fact that they could
compete and so, I did, I asked for the time off and I believe it was 1945 and it ended up
that we didn’t get into the playoffs that year and I think the superintendent called my
mother and offered her the opportunity to ask me if I would want to come back. I can
remember my mother saying, “I know she would never come back unless you knew that
she was doing the right work”, so it was, I did go back, but in 1946 and 1947 I never gave
any thought of dropping my job then because I was twenty-two or twenty-three and I
thought they had deprived themselves of a lot of things to send me to college because
then it was four hundred and thirty-two dollars. 42:07 A hundred and forty four three
times a year and to think today forty one or forty two thousand, so they had a hard time,
but they stuck with me. My mother—they never went on to college, my father became a
Certified Public Accountant and all that, but it just—everything just worked out well, so
I’ve stayed very involved because of the all American. I just feel that’s part of what I
should do and I served two years, I’ve served two years on the board and because I got
Ken Burns, he decided he was going to do a documentary and these are the things that
amaze me. I’m just a little person from the east coast and the Californians and the
Canadians, they seemed to have more opportunities and it just show you that if you’re
doing the right thing how it ended up that Ken Burns asked us if we would take part and
the other day I turned on channel sixteen at home and all of a sudden I looked and I saw
this black and white film and it was Jackie Robinson. 43:16 Ken had decided he was
going to do his thing by innings and the era of Jackie Robinson and the All American he
was putting in the sixth inning and all of a sudden I looked because I had taped it myself
every Sunday and I bought the book, but I had never seen this and here is Dotty Green
and myself didn’t come out in color. I couldn’t believe it, I mean I looked so nice and we
were answering the questions and I thought, “I never would have thought all of this
would come, and someone will see me and “Mary I saw you on channel two”. To think
12
�he has always been doing all these different historic ones, but to think that we got
included in it and then to get on with Robin Roberts, it’s really been a wonderful life.
44:07
Interviewer: “I’m really curious and there’s something here we haven’t gotten to
yet. We haven’t gotten to something that I’m very curious about and that is that
with your love of school and you’re playing baseball, but there was a moment in
1946 when you had to make a decision. You had to make a choice and you even
went, in a sense, against the better wishes of your parents. Why? Why did you play
baseball instead of just saying, “well, I guess?” 44:35
Yeah, and well, I think my father saw in me what he didn’t see in my brother. We were
only thirteen months apart and my mother was fourteen when she left Kingston, Jamaica
to come to the states and to eventually meet my dad and then when they married to have
two children thirteen months apart. Whether she knew that I was doing the right thing—
you know, playing with the boys, she never said no, but as I look back, in her quiet way
and having come from a little bit of wealth down there in Kingston, Jamaica, her brother
was the Gores that did all the Gores cigars and all that, but she came on here after she go
tout of high school, Convent of Mercy she went to, so I think she was really overly
protective of me, she always mad my clothes and all that, but it’s amazing where, unless
she ever play Cricket, she was not adapted to sports, but she loved the Red Sox and at the
end she would go with me and go to all the games. 45:38 I always thought basketball
was my best sport, but I just took part in everything, but we never realize what our
parents have done until years later because see I taught at the end when I now just
recently was told there’s a hundred and fifty homeless children in Quincy and I can’t
believe it. My mother was there all the time for us. 46:00
Interviewer: “Once again I want to get back to this idea of the decision you made to
play baseball and actually quit school.”
Because I just thought it was so—I guess in my own way I thought that I might learn
something the might help me in coaching, but it seemed as though it was an opportunity I
would never have thought of and if I hadn’t played at the garden and Dottie Green, who
had already gotten out there and Maddy English, who’s now gone, she was from Evert
and she stayed at the all American longer than I did and she eventually came back and
finished up at B.U., but I have wondered that, it’s a good question when you ask it
because except to play catch with my father, you know, the boys would just ask—
somehow I think whether it’s because my mother, I still, I hope, acted like a lady and not
a roughian and that’s what keeps me going. When I talk to the kiddo’s to let them realize
what sports is all about. That it’s learning to get along with people and someone has to
win and someone has to lose. 47:16 I can get all these different stories and as long as
they know I take my ball cards and give them some ball cards and I’ve been to over six
hundred places and just recently a girl went to take an advanced degree at Syracuse and
she told me—she came to visit and saw some of my pictures and to think there is enough
interest that the other day she sent me her disc “Rosy at the Bat”, so I think we touch
lives in so many ways that we never think of and yet sometimes I get the feeling that
there are maybe some people my age where I am now living in a senior project, but not in
13
�assisted living. I gave my four-bedroom house to my nephew. 48:02 There are still
some people who would say, “that’s not something that a girl does”, and that’s why I stay
with it, to think that if we can get the girls coaching because the men tend to do a little
roughhouse because we are young ladies and to think that—I never met him, but that’s
what Mr. Wrigley was pushing for and that’s what was my background at Sargent.
Interviewer: “Now, you went on to play with Rockford again, right? 1946 to
1947?”
That’s why I think that they must have noticed—not to say that I had anything, but they
were then overhand pitching and it’s like little league. Those girls, when we couldn’t get
softball pitchers in 1943, 1944 and 1945 they started sidearm well, eventually it became
overhand and just like the boys at about forty feet and they throw in fast, but somehow
those girls that could throw hard and I don’t know why it was, it was only for the
summer, Rockford asked me to come back. 49:08 I don’t know, but there must have
been something in my attitude, or whatnot, that they thought that I was going to be an
addition to the club and I wasn’t going to get upset because some other people pitching
were maybe better than I, so I coached a lot, the coaches would coach on third, on first,
but I really—when I look back I think it was either something that came out of me
through my home that I was taught the right things and without them battering me, that I
did it and I think it came through. 49:47 When I was going to do my undergraduate
work, I never forgot that I was supposed to be a young lady and act like a lady.
Interviewer: “You also went to the U of M, the University of Michigan, the U of
M?”
No, the University of Michigan is what two of the girls—University of Michigan was one
of the girls when I went to Salem State.
Interviewer: “But didn’t you go to the U of M?” 50:12
No, I went—no, the University of Michigan, I’ve been out--Interviewer: “Where did you get your degree after that though?”
I stayed at B.U. and then I took the B.U. Harvard extension courses and I got fifty-two B
on my masters, but I was taking courses at U. Mass Boston and then I go into B.U.
because Sargent had now come on to the B.U. Campus.
Interviewer: “That was Mass, I’m sorry, I got the wrong M.”
I got my fifty-two year—I got my associate degree, but I didn’t go beyond to get my
doctorate because you had to be an administrator and that’s one thing I have regretted, I
never did get out of the trenches, but I have no regrets now. 51:02 I don’t think you do
anything better than working with children.
Interviewer: “1995 Boston Garden Hall of Fame. Tell us about that.”
Oh yeah, they not only were going to change the garden, they were doing some different
things, so they started to do a Hall of Fame and they had it—I don’t know where they had
it around, but the next thing I knew, I had been inducted into it, so I went in with Derek
14
�Sanderson I think, and I went in with one of the gentlemen who did maybe some of the
menial work around the garden and it was great because they had me come in and we
went up to those sky view seats where the company’s now all pay for the whole place,
and to think that I went down on the garden floor with Sanderson, and I forget who else
got honored and they got—I have a nice plaque and then as a follow up they started on
the very top floor opening up some of the exhibits of girls in basketball and whatnot and
as a result, school children started to come in and I volunteered to go in and take them
around on the—and see all the views of the upstairs of the—particularly hockey, but then
they took a tape of the closing of the Boston Garden and to think that I was there when
Woody Dumont and Bobby Bauer and Milt Schmidt were going off to fight for Canada
and that I was up there when I saw them go and I was there when Cunningham went his
two minute mile. 52:51 I just was so wrapped up in everything and I think a lot was my
father, he took me to a lot of those things, so it’s been a wonderful life.
Interviewer: “Do you want some water?”
No, I’m fine.
Interviewer: “Let’s wrap it up with—looking back you made several comments
about how this has had an effect on you, but personally, you personally, not in terms
of the whole league, how has playing in this league affected you personally?” 53:23
When you are talking this league you’re referring to the all American?
Interviewer: “Yes”
It has affected me to the point that I have—you know maybe I have accepted the way
they doing everything, but when I look back and I think that every bit of their interest was
to do the thing right by us. To have chaperones who would be there because see, in the
movie you see Tom Hanks in the locker room and I have to tell people sometimes
remember—Penny Marshall told us, she said, “I’m not doing a documentary, I’m doing a
story about something that happened years ago, so I’ll take a few liberties”, so when I go
I can tell people that Tom played a great part and I said we were told that he did it for that
reason because he was playing Jimmy Fox and the drinking took both of them, but to
think that I was part of that and combined with my background that I had at home and the
background of the wonderful teachers that I had when I look back at it now. 54:31 To
think of the background that I’ve got and to think that the highlight would be baseball and
that baseball is America and now I get asked—I’m going back to Bosox on Friday when I
go because two women’s groups that have been playing baseball are being honored and
I’m to go and sit at the table with them. 54:55 I just feel like I have something to offer
and they can see that I’ve taken care of myself and I I’ve made it to ninety and I’m on my
way to ninety one and to think that I can still go and talk in such a way that people think
I’m sincere. I answer the things that I get because I’m still getting—I do this Out and
About Project and they send me the blank of where they have been and I send them back
another blank, so I know that—besides some people who never send them, we are Out
and About and that’s how we’re preserving the legacy of the all American.
Interviewer: “Thank you so much.”
15
�Hope you got enough, so you can piece it together right because you ask nice questions.
Interviewer: “Thank you.”
16
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_MPratt
Title
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Pratt, Mary (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Pratt, Mary
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Pratt was born in 1918 in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Throughout her early childhood and on through college she played baseball. Before joining the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, Pratt played hockey for two seasons with the Boston Olympets from 1939 to 1940. She got her start professionally in baseball with the Rockford Peaches in 1943. In 1944, she played for the Rockford Peaches and the Kenosha Comets and then in 1945 played just for the Kenosha Comets. From 1946 to 1947 she played for the Rockford Peaches. Throughout her professional career she played as a pitcher and saw how the rules in softball changed how the game was played. The highlights in her professional career were from her 1944 season when she won 21 games and pitched a no-hitter.
Contributor
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-25
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/490e1497047331e64d3437312e50baae.m4v
927e1623046c85ddc5c33a69177edc9a
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c7dfc7381049ee5a58128fc11b5ebdd3.pdf
15cb008424c9d04bd19243d22c5f4fd6
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girl’s Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Maybelle Blair
Length of Interview: (00:38:58)
Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27,
2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 8, 2010
Born: 1917 Longvale, CA
Resides: Palm Desert, CA
Interviewer: “ Maybelle, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself. To
start with, where were you born?”
I was born in Longvale, California, which is right next to the LAX Airport.
Interviewer: “What year was that?”
1927
Interviewer: “Wow, you would never know.”
Absolutely not.
Interviewer: “At that point, what did your family do for a living?”
My father was in charge of a park in Englewood, California. He started it off with the
CC Camp and he was very fortunate to get the job and my mother was a housewife. 1:01
Interviewer: “How many kids were in the family?”
Two.
Interviewer: “Was your father able to keep his job through the thirties?”
Yes, absolutely, that’s what saved us because we did go through the depression and we
were very, very, very poor.
Interviewer: “At what point did you start playing organized sports or even
disorganized sports?”
Oh, probably when I was about nine years old, because my brother, whom I worshiped
and was seven years older than I, loved baseball, so naturally, guess what? Little sister
was right behind him and followed him every step of the way and he would tell me to go
home, but when the boys needed to have somebody at their batting practice, that was the
1
�time that I could play and I could go and shag the balls, which was very fortunate, I
thought.. 1:49
Interviewer: “Did you play in pick-up games and things like that too? Did they let
you play at some point?”
Oh yeah, when they needed an extra person, guess who got to play and out in right field
naturally, but at the time it was fun though.
Interviewer: “How did that translate into your playing organized softball? When
did you start that?”
I started probably playing organized softball, probably in 1942. We had little industrial
teams or local teams that they had, I joined that and that was a lot of fun when I was still
in—actually grade school I guess. 2:31
Interviewer: “How old were you, do you think, when you started?”
Probably twelve.
Interviewer: “Did you have a favorite position?”
Yes, second base.
Interviewer: “Could you turn a good double play?”
Oh my, they would hire me today if I was able, but I loved every minute of it, it was a lot
of fun and the double play was great.
Interviewer: “At this point, whom were you playing against?”
Just little local teams, like some market or some department store or something like that.
We had little leagues. 3:06
Interviewer: “How would you get to the games?”
My father would take me and my brother would go along begrudgingly because he didn’t
want to see sister play, it was boring.
Interviewer: “Now, at some point do you move up a level in terms of the league that
you’re playing in?”
Yes, they started opening up a real good semi-pro league in Burbank, California and I
was able to go and play in that league. I was real fortunate to be able to do that and that
was quite exciting for me.
Interviewer: “What year did that start up for you?”
Probably 1942 or 43, right in there.
Interviewer: “So it was about the same time that the All American Girls League
was forming up in Chicago.”
2
�Right, I was still in high school and that’s when that took place.
Interviewer: “Were most of the people that were playing in this league about your
age or were they older?”
Some of them were older, the ones that took off to play in the all American and there
were some that were a little younger, both ways, but I was probably one of the youngest.
4:15
Interviewer: “Now you’re playing with this league, how far a field would you travel
to play your games now, still local?”
All over, and then I started playing with the Pasadena Ramblers and that was a traveling
league during the war and we use to go and play the service men and all over the place.
We went to San Diego, we went to northern California to all of the forts and all the bases
and that was quite a lot of fun because the guy’s got a big kick out of it and we really got
a kick out of it and that’s what we actually did, we went to play them and they had
planned a trip for us to go overseas to play the teams and at that time the war had picked
up and they said no, that it would be too dangerous for us to go, so we stayed home. 5:01
Interviewer: “How does it work? You arrange that you’re going to an army base
or a navy base or someplace, how do they orchestrate that and look after you?”
What they would do was, they would send a bus after us wherever we were or hire a
Greyhound bus or there was another bus line, but I can’t remember what it was at that
particular time, and they would charter that for us and take us down. We would go into
the barracks where the women were and we would get dressed and all that we had to
prepare for and after our ball games they would feed us dinner and the bus would take us
home.
Interviewer: “Were you playing men’s teams or women’s teams?”
Men’s teams, they were all men’s teams. 5:45
Interviewer: “How did the male players react to that?”
Well, they couldn’t believe it, that we could beat them. They thought, “oh god we’ll kill
these women”, but they couldn’t beat us because they weren’t professional ball players, I
mean good ball players, some of them were good ball players, but we would just cream
them and when we did, they couldn’t believe it. Everybody in the stands, all the rest of
the soldiers or navy or sailors or what have you, would just scream and holler at them,
“you sissy, you can’t catch”, you know it was really fun. 6:18
Interviewer: “Now, the All American Girls Baseball League, they had their skirts
and all this kind of stuff. What kind of uniforms did you have?”
We just had shorts and a top and pants also. It was generally satin in those days that we
all wore and that was a lot of fun.
3
�Interviewer: “It was better for sliding into base.”
Absolutely, you would get strawberries and that didn’t feel too good.
Interviewer: “Did you would still get strawberries even with the satin?”
Absolutely, they even had little sliding slides that we had. They had it.
Interviewer: “Now was the softball played with a sort of regulation size baseball
field or a smaller field?”
A regular softball field, and don’t ask me the size of the bases because I can’t remember
that far. 7:04
Interviewer: “Are the distances a little bit shorter than baseball or longer?”
Much shorter.
Interviewer: “So in that way it was similar to what the All American Girls League
was when they started out, when they played shorter dimensions.”
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Now, in softball were you a good hitter?”
A very good hitter and that was one of my strong points. I was a good hitter and I had a
strong arm.
Interviewer: “As a hitter did you hit line drives or long flies?”
Line drives and I could whack the heck out of that thing and it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed
it.
Interviewer: “When you were with the Pasadena Ramblers, what was the farthest
away from home you traveled?”
Probably three hundred miles, north California and San Diego from Los Angeles.
Interviewer: “They weren’t sending you out into the Midwest or anything like
that?”
No, no, no, just the California area, but we hit from northern to southern.
Interviewer: “As you were doing this, did you have any kind of regular job at the
same time or was the team your job?”
I was in high school. 8:15
4
�Interviewer: “You were in high school and were you mostly playing in the summer
when you sere out of school or would they take you out of school to go on these
trips?”
It was during the summertime, during our summer vacation. My mother wouldn’t let me
out of school, period, no matter how I begged.
Interviewer: “Now, how long were you playing in that league?”
I was probably there until 1946 or 1947 when the scout saw me, the Chicago scout saw
me and wanted me to come and play professional softball in Chicago. 8:51
Interviewer: “So there is professional softball in Chicago, was there a league up
there?”
Oh yes, a wonderful league up there, a strictly softball league and we played in the
Chicago area and it was the best part of my life.
Interviewer: “They were scouting the California league you were in, so the scout
says, “you want to come up and play?” did you have to go and clear it with your
parents?”
Oh, are you kidding, that poor guy went through the fifth degree I’ll tell you, I felt sorry
for him. My mother was just a---every question she could think of and he promised and
promised to take good care of me and all I would have to do is put me on the train and he
would pick me up at the other end. 9:41 I would have to write home so often or call
home and that was guaranteed and he saw to it that I did.
Interviewer: “Had you ever taken a long train trip like that before?”
The first time in my life, I couldn’t hardly go to Englewood, California we were so poor,
we didn’t have any money, so that was my very first trip outside of California.
Interviewer: “Do you remember how long it took?”
Probably a day and a half or two days on a train, I can’t remember, but it was exciting.
10:14
Interviewer: “When you got up to Chicago, what did they do with you?”
Well, they met me at the train and they took me to a hotel and I was scared to death
because I was there all by myself and I had never been by myself, so I pushed the dresser
up against the wall and got me four baseballs and a bat and dared anybody to come in my
room. It was really something, I was scared to death and I called my mother and she
said, “I can’t afford this, get off the line”, so I had to cut the conversation pretty close, but
oh my god I was scared. 10:49 I told them, “I can’t do this any longer, I can’t sleep, I
can’t do anything”, so two days later I got my roommate in from Missouri, a gal, and we
5
�became very, very good friends and I was thrilled to death when she came, so she was my
roommate during that period. 11:09
Interviewer: “Was there a specific team that you were assigned to then?”
My assignment was with the Chicago Cardinals and it was a nice team and we had a real
good team.
Interviewer: “Now, did each team have their own home park or were their certain
parks that everyone played in?”
Everybody had their home park.
Interviewer: “What was yours?”
Except for our, that was the only on that didn’t, excuse me. We played at Bidwell
Stadium and Bluebird Park, which Charlie Bidwell owned and his son now runs the
Chicago Cardinals and there were several others.
Interviewer: “They are the Arizona Cardinals these days.”
Yes, the Arizona Cardinals, excuse me. 11:57
Interviewer: “There was a Chicago Cardinals football team.”
Well, that’s the same one. They came out here and are now the Arizona Cardinals and
that’s what he owned.
Interviewer: “Did they pay you much of anything?”
Oh yeah, I was rich, I made sixty dollars a week and my gosh, I had money that wouldn’t
end. I was going to save it and go to college like a lot of us tried to do and I sent some
home to my mother. I was a rich girl because the hotel room was only seven dollars a
week at that time. 12:24
Interviewer: “What did they do in terms of chaperoning you or were you just on
your own?”
Out manager was responsible for us, he and his coaches, and they watched out for us.
They did watch me very closely I’ll tell you, I was bad, I was bad.
Interviewer: “Did you get yourself in trouble?”
I was always in trouble having a good time that was my problem. I loved everybody.
Interviewer: “What were the games like in this league?”
6
�They were wonderful, absolutely wonderful and we had some fantastic ball players like
you see the Olympic teams today, that’s how our softball teams played ball exactly.
Interviewer: “Was it a higher level of ball than you played in California or close?”
Pretty close, but it was a higher level because they took the best ball players from each of
the teams because they would scout and take them back to Chicago and that’s what
happened. 13:26
Interviewer: “You’re playing and how long did you play for them?”
I played there in 1947 and in the latter part of 1948 is when I hurt my legs and I couldn’t
move and that’s when I was signed by Max Carey to go and play in the All American
League.
Interviewer: “All right, explain how that happened.”
Oh god, like I said, I was at Parache Stadium and I was out showing off thinking---I was
a show off for some reason and I could never understand that, but anyway, I pretended I
was a major league pitcher out there throwing the softball and I could throw a curve and I
had a good arm, so after I through showing off this guy comes up to me and said,
“Maybelle would you mind coming over here I want to talk to you for a minute”, and I
said, “no, of course not” and I went wobbling over and he said, “how would you like to
go and play for the All American?” I thought for about two seconds and I said, “sure
why not, I can’t do anything, but I don’t want to play anything but pitcher”, and he said,
“that’s what I want you for”, and I thought, “pitcher, I never played pitcher before, but
I’ll go”. 14:36 Well anyway, they signed me and I got in my car, I had a car at that time
because I had saved my money, and I drove down to Peoria and they got me a hotel and I
had a horrible toothache and these two little girls that were great fans went out and got
me some toothache medicine and saved my life and anyway to make a long story short, I
started pitching. 15:09 I was there for maybe a month and first of all he had me go
out—he called me into the game, “Hey Maybelle come in and pitch”, and I said, “oh”,
and here I come dizzy Dean herself is walking out there, so I was out there and somebody
was on first base, I don’t know who it was, but I think it was Sophie Kurys. I wound up
I’ll tell you, I wound up for forty minutes and by the time I got through unwinding that
runner was on third base you know not knowing I forgot all about it that I had a runner on
and that was the fun of it, I had a lot of fun. 15:49 They started bunting me because they
found out I couldn’t move.
Interviewer: “Ok, sort out your baseball career a little bit. How long were you with
the team before they put you in, was it a month?”
It was actually about a week and a half before he put me in and he kept me around for
courtesy’s sake I guess for another couple weeks and then he called me in his office and
he said, “I hate to have to tell you this, but I’m going to have to release you, but would
you please come back next year when your legs are well because we can certainly use
you.” 16.27
7
�Interviewer: “So he liked your arm anyway?”
Oh yeah, I got a good arm still today.
Interviewer: “When you were working out with them, before he had actually put
you in the game, did they know you couldn’t run?”
No, because I didn’t practice like I was running, I didn’t let them know. I kept it a secret
all to myself.
Interviewer: “So in the game, when you were playing, did someone try bunting on
you to see what would happen?”
Well yeah, exactly, because the rumor had gotten through because we had interaction
between the leagues because when we were off we would go and visit the other kids and
they said, “she can’t run so start bunting for god sake, she can’t move”, which was true.
17:12
Interviewer: “How did you hurt your legs?”
Running. And I didn’t tell him and I was hobbling around there and could hardly run and
for some ungodly reason the other leg was pulled and I cannot understand how I got two
charlie horses, but I kept those babies for a long time, even after I came home it took
quite a while to get rid of it. When I got home from playing ball I was hired by Northrop
Aircraft. I wanted to go back and play again, but I had such a good opportunity that I
couldn’t do it. This fellow I met was in charge of all traffic at Northrop Aircraft and he
said, “I want you to come in, learn the job and I want you to be supervisor in
transportation”, and I said, “oh come on, get off of it, I can’t do that”. I told him that and
he said, “you have the personality for it, I need to get you in here to get these drivers in
order”, and I said, “no, no, no”, anyway I finally decided to do it and I said, “the only
way I will do it is if I can learn to drive every piece of equipment we have because I do
not want to hear them razzing me or giving me a hard time that you picked the wrong
person. 18:27 Anyway, he did and I worked my way up from courier hauling VIP’s all
over like generals and presidents, heads of states and what have you all around, to
dispatcher and I went on to be supervisor and then I became manager of all highway
transportation for Northrop Aircraft.
Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about that courier job. Who were you driving
around?”
Big time—heads of state from all over the world because at that time we were building
the F5 Fighter and we were trying to sell it, so we were selling it to all the different
countries for their fleet or air force and I hauled lots of very important people. In fact,
Ronald Reagan was one of them and to this day I was thrilled to death about that. He was
Governor of the state at that particular time. 19:27
8
�Interviewer: “Were their other individuals whose names stood out as being
particularly interesting or unusual people?”
Oh sure, General Whitehead who was the head of the Pacific, and what was his name—I
loved him, but several of them and I can’t remember right now. Korean generals and it
was quite an experience for me.
Interviewer: “Were you going into jobs that normally men had been doing?”
Yes absolutely, it was all men and then when I became currier there were two couriers
ahead of me and both girls. W wore one of those uniforms and I thought I was real cute.
I was uglier than sin, but I thought I was cute. Anyway, that’s what we did and that was
the only girls in the department and then I went on, like I told you, and became head of
the department and one of my jobs was planning routes for the F18 aircraft to get it from
Hawthorn Air Force Base to---from Northrop Field to Edwards Air Force Base. 20:45 I
would have to go our and survey all of that—take down signs, trees, everything else
because we had to get it there because that was going to be our future the F18, so luckily
that was a real job and I got that sucker down there. One time when we were going
through downtown L.A. because it’s got the wings on it, and this drunk comes staggering
out of a bar in downtown Los Angeles he looked and the wing was practically going over
his head and he went like this and turned around and went right back into the bar. He
wasn’t seeing pink elephants he was just seeing airplanes. I can imagine what he went
back in and told them. 21:31 When I got to Edwards Air Force Base it was so exciting
because they had laid out the red carpet for me and after we stopped the aircraft and all
the people got out, they were playing “off we go into the wild blue yonder”, and I got out
of the truck and I couldn’t stand up, I was so weak I fell almost down on my knees, but
they caught me, I was so excited, it was quite an honor.
Interviewer: “Did you encounter any friction being a woman and going into these
positions and telling men what to do?”
At first I did, but the problem was is that I knew it very well and I knew what I was
talking about and they couldn’t argue with me or try to pull the wool over my eyes and
they soon learned that they couldn’t do that to me. I was fair, but I was strict. 22:17
Interviewer: “So the fellow that hired you knew what he was doing.”
Apparently, I guess so and also, I planned the route for the B2 Bomber, so I was happy
about that too.
Interviewer: “Did you have to move that along surface streets too?”
Oh yeah, not the whole bomber, but just the cockpit area.
Interviewer: “But not the whole thing.”
9
�Oh no you couldn’t. Up at Palmdale they built the wings, but we built the cockpit at our
facility and that was great too. I have to tell you too that I played for the New Orleans
Jacks, the world’s champions.
Interviewer: “Now when were you doing that?”
I can’t remember what year that was, but it was while I was working at Northrop. I told
my boss at the time, I said, “I have to have a whole month or so off because they are
asking me and pleading with me to come and play for them”. I said, “Ok?” he said,
“Ok”, so he gave me a month off. 23:11
Interviewer: “How did you get the invitation to play for New Orleans?”
Well, they new about me playing back there and they were out here and they needed
another ball player desperately, so I said, “ok” and I went and that was fun.
Interviewer: “Did you play second base for them?”
Second base.
Interviewer: “Then where did you go when you were playing with them?”
Oh, up through Canada, all through Washington, Oregon, Arizona and California.
Interviewer: “Now, was this a point after the All American League had folded?”
Yes that was, I would say that was probably down at about 1950 or 1951 maybe and I
may be wrong there. 23:55
Interviewer: “It could be, in 50 and 51 the league was still going at that point
wasn’t it?”
Oh yeah, the league was still going, but I didn’t have time to go back and play ball, I
couldn’t do that because I would lose my job and that was more important.
Interviewer. “You could take the month and go with New Orleans?”
Yes, they each gave me a month.
Interviewer: “So you had a chance to go back and play a little bit after the injury?”
Yeah, I did and that was fun.
Interviewer: “Now, on that particular tour, what kind of crowds did you get?”
Oh, fantastic, in fact we stopped at Bakersfield and played the world champion men’s
baseball team and we had two sisters on the team known as the Savodas—the best
baseball players or softball players or ball players I have ever seen in my life. During
batting practice they, both of them, could take batting practice and hit it over the fence
10
�left handed and right handed, no problem, run like deer and throw—you cannot imagine
how great they were, the two best ball players that ever lived. 24:52
Interviewer: “You played a men’s championship team, was that a championship
softball team?”
Softball team yeah.
Interviewer: “So you weren’t playing the New York Yankees or something?”
No, but during that game that we played them, the men had to pitch from the men’s
league and the women pitched from out league distance to the plate and our pitcher was
named Lotty Jackson and she stood about six one or two and she had a wind up that you
couldn’t even see the ball. Ginny Finch today, I don’t think Ginny Finch is as fast as was
this girl and these guys couldn’t hit her and it was so funny, we couldn’t hit him either,
let’s face it, anyway he walked me somehow, I probably stood there with my bat on my
shoulder and he couldn’t hit the plate, anyway, I somehow got over to third base and this
manager we had, Freda Sevoda one of the Sevoda sisters, she said, “pretend like you
can’t run”, and I said, “I can run”, and she said, “no, pretend like you can’t run”, and I
said, “ok”. 26:00 She took over and what she noticed—we beat these guys and what
happened was that the catcher, when he would get the ball sometimes, he would walk to
almost where the pitcher was and give him this (a sign) and he would slowly start
walking back to the plate, She noticed, that’s how smart she was, well he went out there
and he gave a little pitch to the pitcher and she took off like a jack rabbit and slid right
under him and we won one to nothing and I think there were eight thousand people out
there for that game and they just hoot and hollered and that was really something. 26:35
I never was so tickled in my life.
Interviewer: “Did they make any effort to get you to stay on?”
They wanted us to come back and play, but we had a schedule and we couldn’t do it and
the league didn’t like that at all, not at all
Interviewer: “Was that the last time you were playing on organized ball?”
Yes, that was the very last time and then I decided to hang it up.
Interviewer: “Now, when you were working at Northrop etc., did people know
anything about what you had done in the past in these different leagues and
things?”
During that time they didn’t know because the movie is what made it, if it wasn’t for the
movie you wouldn’t have known about the All American Girls, you wouldn’t have
known about the professional softball league because actually, they could have taken the
softball league instead of the all Americans and made the same movie, but they didn’t,
but people didn’t realize that there was two leagues or even one league, especially the
western people, the Midwest knew it and in Chicago they knew it, but that was it, the
11
�south didn’t know it, nobody knew it until Penny Marshall decided to make the movie.
27:54
Interviewer: “How did you wind up hooked up with this organization that you
played on one team for a short length of time?”
They made the movie and they asked me to come and be in the movie, so I was in it when
the old timers were at the end and what have you and that was the reason.
Interviewer: “Did you know a number of the people who were in the league?”
Oh yes, because I played softball with them and baseball and what have you. I have
known quite a few of them for years.
Interviewer: “At the time you were doing all these things, playing in these leagues
or for that matter going into some of your jobs at Northrop, did you see yourself as
a pioneer or were you just taking care of yourself?”
Nobody did, nobody did until after the movie again. The movie was the making of
everybody and even when you mention that you played in the all American or the
National league they don’t know what you’re talking about and could care less, now they
care, it’s amazing. 29:00
Interviewer: “What do you think of sort of the state of women’s sports today? Do
you see yourself as being part of a larger trend?”
I think it’s the most wonderful thing in the world, it has given all the girls the opportunity
of scholarships, it’s not that they’re going to be great professional athletes, but it gives
them the opportunity to go to college and that’s what I’m thrilled about. It gives the girls
the opportunity to take the right step in their lives, whichever step that is. They have a
choice. And thank God that happened; we’re so thrilled about it. 29:33 Before it was the
good old boys and let’s face it, all we were supposed to do is stay home and put on our
aprons and have kids.
Interviewer: “How do you think your life would have gone if you hadn’t hooked up
with organized softball?”
What would have happened? I would have probably gone on to college and become a PE
teacher. That’s exactly what I would have done. That was my goal in life because I
didn’t think there was any chance to go and play professional softball or baseball, but it
was there and gosh, how lucky we were, how lucky we were.
Interviewer: “Is that what gave you the connections that enabled you to go into
Northrop? Did these people know you from that?”
No, no, I was in a function or something—I think I was giving a speech—I don’t know
what in the world I was doing, anyway he came up to me and he said, “I need you”, and I
12
�said, “what do you mean you need me?” He said, “I’m da, da, da, da, and I want you to
come to work at Northrop”, and I said, “well, I’m going to go to college”, and he said,
“no, I want you to come to Northrop because I’m going to give you a good job and I’m
going to open the door for you”, so maybe he saw something that maybe he thought I was
a leader or something, that’s what I thought. 30:54
Interviewer: “If you were at a function and giving a speech, was this somehow in
conjunction with what you had been doing already?”
No, no I don’t know what the heck I was giving the speech about, I was giving a speech
about—heck, I can’t remember what it was, but I was giving a little speech. I don’t know
what it was, maybe about going to college—that’s what it was, I was going to go to
college and what my career was going to be and what I was going to become, I think that
was it. 31:19
Interviewer: “How do you think your time in these organized leagues affect you or
change you? Did you grow up some because of this or learn things—that whole
experience of going out to Chicago and all of that?”
Yeah, it taught me a great deal because I had never even been away from my mother
overnight to a girls party or sleep out or go anywhere to visit anybody, that was the first
time and I learned a great deal and it was quite exciting and when they say they put the
ropes around the suitcases, well I had ropes around my suitcase and I took off. 31:55
Gosh, I thought I was in hog heaven when I landed in Chicago and they picked me up.
The buildings wow.
Interviewer: “Although there was that part there where you had to barricade
yourself in the hotel room when you got there, but the young woman who did that is
not the same person exactly that the fellow from Northrop spotted and said, “I need
you”, so something happened between there.”
Well that was a learning process, absolutely a learning process and It’s not as easy as you
think, I figured it out and when I went to Northrop I realized that if I really wanted to
make it, I had to devote myself to it and quit being a kid anymore and quit fooling
around. I still fool around, but anyway that’s the way it is. 32:43
Interviewer: “Well, it makes for a very good story and thanks for coming in and
telling it to me today.”
Hey, I hope you appreciate it.
13
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_MBlair
Title
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Blair, Maybelle (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Blair, Maybelle
Description
An account of the resource
Maybelle Blair was born in 1927 in Longvale, California. Before joining the All American Girl's Baseball League she played baseball with her brothers at the age of nine and then later in 1942 at age twelve began playing organized softball. At about this time she played for a semi-pro league out of Burbank, California and then with the Pasadena Ramblers from 1943 to 1946 who she toured with playing games at army bases for servicemen. Her semi-pro career ended in 1947 when the Chicago Cardinals scouted her and signed her to be a pitcher. In 1948, Max Carey signed her to play on the Peoria Redwings as a pitcher. Due to an injured leg, her career was cut short and she only played a month with the Peoria Redwings. Later, she went on to play 2nd base for the New Orleans Jacks for a month in 1951. Her career ended with them ended when she was forced to choose between playing softball and giving up her job driving VIPs for Northrop Airport; she chose to quit softball. Blair wraps by mentioning how the All American Girls Professional Baseball League changed her perspective on the course of her life.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-26
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87f9f709762b06e5b8c39f0fb8487e7e.mp4
1abcbc02dd4ca54e5711968b8b535dfa
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8a7c7451ee4fe9215968d2234e1bea9.pdf
8eab3cbbe6004f009ad1fd5aee69e96d
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Jacqueline Baumgart
Length of Interview: (01:28:17)
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer February 20, 2010
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
Hard.
Interviewer: “In what way?”
It was very hard. We were eight and I was the youngest of eight and I did not have a
father, so the whole time during the depression was very, very difficult.
Interviewer: “What did your mother do to support you?”
She did washing clothes, ironing clothes, house cleaning. That’s what she knew how to
do and in those days—women, that’s pretty much what they did with a fifth grade
education.
Interviewer: “What was school like before high school?” 1:38
Before high school, I got into trouble a lot because I wanted to play ball and I wanted to
kick the ball and play ball and do what all the boys were doing. I grew up with boys,
brothers, and so I tagged along, a few feet behind, but I tagged along. We played a lot of
softball and scrub games and that’s how I learned how to play and whenever they didn’t
have enough players, they let me play. 2:17 I was little, I was very, very little and
when they let me play, they put me in the outfield because they didn’t have to shag the
ball and then I learned how to throw very long and hard because I was throwing the ball
back in and that’s how I really learned how. By playing with the boys, it gave me an
opportunity to develop physically, because, like I said, I was very, very small. 2:57
Interviewer: “The town you grew up in, was it a very big town or was it a small
town?”
It was a small town. Waukegan is located between Milwaukee and Chicago and very
near there was the Great Lakes Training Center and not too far from there was Fort
Sheridan and so, it was just a small town and in fact very close to Kenosha, where I
wound up playing and about the same size. 3:30
Interviewer: “How about high school, how was high school for you?”
High school was very, very interesting. I moved to Milwaukee in March of 1942.
1
�Interviewer: “Your whole family?”
No, I had a sister living in Milwaukee and two of my brothers went into the service and
mother had received a widow’s pension and that kind of decreased a little bit when they
went into service, so I moved to Milwaukee to live with a sister and from there, which
was a great thing because that helped me develop differently than what I would have in
Waukegan. I had playgrounds to play on. 4:16 You couldn’t play in the schools in
competition, but we could play on the playgrounds in the summer and I fortunately—the
alley behind the house had a common fence, with the alley and the playground and so
when my sister asked me to take the garbage out, I said “sure”, because I took the
garbage out and I was gone. That’s how I started and there were two gentlemen that had
worked with the Milwaukee recreation department and the playgrounds had directors and
one was Bunny Brief and one was Jack Chlossa, both professional ball players, because
we were going from playground to playground, and they said, “I think we’ll take you out
to West Allis”, which is a suburb, because they had a fast pitch softball league there.
They took me out there and I got on the team right away—
Interviewer: “Now by team—is this a girls team?” 5:25
A girls team. I finally found that I was good at something, because you don’t know,
you’re always playing with the boys and it’s a different kind of competition when you do
that. The boys say that you are only a girl and I had to live through that and that develops
a certain kind of tenacity in you and so when I went to West Allis, they had about eight
softball teams, fast pitch, and the first year that I was there, we won the state
championship. My mother came into town and it was the first and only game that she
saw was winning, winning my first championship. 6:17 One to nothing on a balk.
That’s the kind of close competitive games that I was learning all the while.
Interviewer: “Now, after the game, what did your mother have to say?”
Not too much, she really—it was indifferent to her, she didn’t really know anything about
sports, particularly women playing sport, and she just thought it was nice, everybody
treated me nice, so that was her main important thought. She didn’t live with us in
Milwaukee; she went back to Waukegan and was living there. 7:01
Interviewer: “What position were you playing by this time?”
A catcher.
Interviewer: “Were you always a catcher?”
No, I was always everything and that’s how I grew up, to play every position. I played
every position and I actually became a catcher during the wintertime when we were
playing inside a gym with a different kind of ball—it was a little bit larger ball than a
softball, it had an out seam to it and a little softer, I mean it wasn’t had at all and I was
just playing in the outfield, but they all knew that I wanted to play and that I could play
2
�anywhere. At one point a pitcher wasn’t doing too good, so the catcher became the
pitcher and then they said, “Well, who wants to catch?” All eyes came this was, I mean I
didn’t have to say much of anything, so I went into catch, well, I dropped the first foul
ball, “tip’ you know, and I realized that I had to keep my eyes open because you flinch
and that’s an automatic response and I said, “I have to keep my eyes open”. 8:20 By the
end of the game there was a foul ball and I caught it and from then on, I was a catcher.
Those are the kinds of things that happen that lead you in a direction. Coming to
Milwaukee, doing something like that as a catcher, staying a catcher, going out to West
Allis, being pointed the way; it has an awful lot of importance for my development. 8:49
Interviewer: “Now how old were you at this time? This was still high school?”
I was in—yes; I was about fifteen and a half, sixteen, something like that.
Interviewer: “So you’re going to high school, you’re playing ball with this group?
What happened next? Did you graduate from high school?”
I graduated from high school and then I was working and playing out in WestAllis,
softball, and we began to start playing baseball and we were playing in West Milwaukee,
which is between West Milwaukee and West Allis in terms of property lines and during
that time I was scouted for the All American Girls Baseball League. 9:54
Interviewer: “Did you know anything about this group prior to that?”
I knew a little bit because some had started to come back from playing professional ball
and we had to wait a year or two before you could play amateur again. I knew that they
had played and I knew that Milwaukee had had a team. I became a knotholer because we
didn’t have any money, nobody had any money and I was a catcher and another lady,
Edna Shear, lived in Cedarburg another suburb and we both were scouted. I didn’t know,
we didn’t know we were scouted and I got a card in the wintertime, close to winter, and it
said to go to someplace in Pennsylvania or Newark, New Jersey. 10:53 I didn’t know
that Edna had received a card and her card said Chicago was where she was supposed to
go. Well, I wanted to play, so I borrowed some money, took a train and went to Newark,
New Jersey all by myself and my world wasn’t any larger than from Waukegan to
Milwaukee, which is about forty-five minutes away. 11:22
Interviewer: “Now, just previous to that, you’re still living with your sister.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So, did you talk it over with her at all? Did you have anybody that
you talked about going to New Jersey?”
No, I just went. I borrowed money from a sister that was living in Waukegan and she
was married to a dentist, so I figured they had a little bit of money and sure enough it was
either fifty or sixty dollars that I borrowed. To go. 11:51
3
�Interviewer: “So you arrive in New Jersey, what was your first impression of New
Jersey?”
Big, huge—where do I put my foot next? Sounds are so different, very, very different.
Speaking the English language was different—in “New Joyzee” you know, that was a
little bit different, but I was met at the train by I think it was three, of the ball players and
they were part of the recruiting and all of that. They took me to a gym, an inside gym,
just like the movie and I tried out, I had my glove, a catche’rs glove, and we went up
against the wall and then we went one by one and there was a black lady sitting next to
me and she didn’t have a glove, so she asked if she could use my glove and I said, “ yes,
but it’s a catchers glove”, and she said, “that’s ok”, so she went and she came back and I
went and the three of them took me out to dinner after that because I was staying in a
private home. 13:17
Interviewer: “The three originals that picked you up at the railroad station?”
Yes. They were the only contacts that I had. They asked me, “was that your glove or her
glove?” I said, “it was my glove”, and then they said, “Oh, we don’t do that”. That
was my first introduction into how people felt about other people, because where I grew
up in Waukegan, we were pretty much a mixed group and for me there wasn’t any kind
of distinction when you were going to play ball or whatever, so that was very upsetting
for me. 14:05
Interviewer: “In that particular gym, you mentioned yourself and then there was a
black woman there too, were there other women there trying out? About how
many?”
There were probably twelve to fifteen or something like that.
Interviewer: “But there was actually one black woman in there?”
Yes, one black woman.
Interviewer: “Wow, do you know what ever happened to her?”
No.
Interviewer: “After you had the dinner with the three, you went back to the host
home and you stayed overnight, what happened next?”
I just went to the train again and came back. One of the things that I just very well
remember was going through the oil city in Pennsylvania—you could smell it—it’s a
whole new smell, everything was so new and so different. 15:05 When you’re by
yourself, you learn how to—what to accept and what not too. I’m a survivor of a lot of
things and was attuned to a lot of things going on and very much a real experience. For
one to grow up at that age, very impressionable and I take everything in, like you learn
how to steal second or something.
4
�Interviewer: “Once you got back home to Milwaukee, was there another
communication of some kind?” 15:57
Yes, before spring training I got another card and it said to go to South Bend, Indiana and
I met about sixty girls there and we had a spring training. Spring training wasn’t easy it
was very hard.
Interviewer: “Tell us, first of all keep in mind, you were there and we weren’t, so I
kind of want to visualize your arriving there were sixty girls there. Give us—take us
there to spring training.” 16:29
Spring training—early in the morning and we would go until noon, we had a light lunch
and only because I was thin, if they had a little extra couple of cups of ice cream they
would say, “here you need this”, and we had a little bit of rest period because we ate and
then it was all afternoon again until four o’clock, we never let up. We didn’t play an
actual game, but it was like an infield practice. You went to a position or you said you
wanted to go and you played that however the manager wanted it to go, because it wasn’t
a game, it was—he was almost actually teaching us. He wanted to know what we really
knew and how we would think and respond to the ball and other players and to managing,
how we would respond to directions. 17:40 After that I was told to go to Racine to meet
up with Rockford.
Interviewer: “So, at spring training—I know a lot of these answers, but I still want
to get it for the record. The spring training, you did not have a team yet, you were
not on a team yet?”
Not yet, no.
Interviewer: “So the girls were all playing different positions to see which ones they
could play well or not well and then a decision was made as to what team you’re
going to play on?”
Right.
Interviewer: “What were you wearing during spring training?” 18:10
Just jeans and shorts depending on how warm it was.
Interviewer: “But it wasn’t uniforms, just whatever you brought to play is what
you wore?”
Right.
Interviewer: “So the spring training was completed and they let you know that you
were now a?”
I went to Rockford—actually Rockford was in Racine and so that’s where I went and I
was there for a week and I was under the tutelage of Bill Allington, I learned more from
him in one week than I did in all the time before. As we look back at it now it has to do
with—we came with the skills and the professional men managers helped us become
5
�professionals. A lot of little things that you never think of, if you get into bad habits
naturally in terms of batting and throwing. 19:14
Interviewer: “Give me an example of maybe one of the ones that you learned. You
say that you learned more in that week, well, give me an idea, what did you learn?”
One in particular, because I was a catcher and we would have an infield practice and all
of a sudden he threw the ball down on the ground and I took that to be a bunt, which it
was, so I hopped right after it I picked it up and I went like this and then I let it go and he
did it again and I did the same thing and he said, “now what did you do that for?” I said,
“What do you mean?” He said, “you put your hand into the glove and then you throw the
ball. That runner has got a whole step and a half on you.” You don’t think about those
things when you’re just playing and learning a little bit, just a natural by osmosis thinking
The managers we had playing fast pitch were good managers, but they weren’t teaching
us anything. 20:18 They just taught us about some things as the game moved along.
You really weren’t learning like we learned in the professional league and of course I
listened. I did that all my life was to watch and listen and from that I learned an awful
lot. Now the other thing was in hitting, I stood too far in the back and he said, “you got
to move up a little bit and choke up a little bit. You got to be brave and go all the way
down to the bottom of the bat. Just choke up a little bit because then you have more
balance at the end of the bat. We have to learn to hit and bat according to our bodies
what we can do and what we can’t do it isn’t all show. If you want to play, you play, you
don’t act up.” 21:18
Interviewer: “Good advice”
It is and he didn’t mean it in the sense of show off, he meant it in the sense of getting out
of bad habits.
Interviewer: “Let me ask you a question and this may sound like an unfair question
and you don’t have an answer for it, but he’s a professional male baseball player
and he’s working with you as a very young girl. Did you get any sense that he was
treating you like a girl or treating you like a baseball player?”
Like a baseball player, because he knew his positions as a manager and what it probably
might have been like for him when he started out being a professional. It’s a transitional
period and he knew how to do that. He also knew that you had to learn not only how to
play, but the intricacies of the game, the whole game, the whole thing, whether you were
catcher or first baseman, pitcher or an outfielder, you learned it all, everything that’s
going on because three things, 1 is the ball, naturally, there is no play without the ball, 2nd
is accuracy, if you’re going to play, you don’t just throw, you concentrate, not too hard,
but you concentrate on where you’re going to throw that ball and the 3rd one is to think
where you’re going to throw that ball, when are you going to throw the ball and to be
ready to receive. 23:02 For him those were the three most important things. They are
very, very basic, they don’t get anymore basic than that, and it will take you a long way.
The other thing he pointed out was that you are on the field playing and the manager is
watching all of this and the manager doesn’t miss a trick and so if you think you’re going
6
�to fluff off, it doesn’t work because the manager sees what you are doing and those are
some of the little things that make you a professional ball player. 23:51
Interviewer: “Once the spring training was over with and you were chosen to be on
the team, what was the process of getting your uniform and do you remember what
it was like to see your uniform for the first time?”
After that I was sent to Chicago, excuse me, the northern part of Chicago, and most of the
girls I met in South Bend were there. They were choosing thirty girls to make up two
teams, so that means that there are fifteen players on a team, that’s all we had. I was
chosen as a Springfield Sally and only because we had the uniforms. They tried a team in
Springfield and it didn’t work and the other team was called the Chicago Colleens
because Chicago had a professional team. It wasn’t baseball, it was fast pitch softball
and they set-up a perimeter and around that perimeter, we couldn’t play anywhere near
there because it was an infringement, so they put us on a bus, thirty of us girls, the two
women chaperones managers, a man manager, sometimes the business manager, and sent
us all east of the Mississippi and into Canada. 25:28 I probably was one of the older
ones and another Cuban girl was, I think, about twenty-four. I think I was going on
twenty-one or something like that, but the others were all younger. What it was—it was a
traveling team to gain experience playing professional baseball. In the towns that we
played, they had charities that they gave money to and then to have tryouts. Every time
we went someplace, there were tryouts and when we came back to Cleveland, I think it
was, we just went home. 26:26
Interviewer: “So it was two teams of fifteen, traveling and playing each other?”
Yes.
Everyplace you were just playing each other, playing each other. You were actually
getting back on the bus together, so you had the camaraderie of being on a team, but
you would separate out and play each other?”
Yes. That’s a learning process, a growing process because we were from all over the
United States and Cuba. The whole experience is more than an experience. That’s how I
look at it, it became a way of life because you ate baseball and played baseball, slept
baseball, we went from one town to the next town and very seldom were we two nights in
the same town. 27:30 We never read the write-ups you know.
Interviewer: “Give me an idea, I know this might sound dull, but what’s the
routine? You get up in the morning, you get on the bus, you go—walk us through a
typical day when you go on one of those excursions and how it was.”
Well, you know it depended on how late we got in from one town to the other, especially
going in and through the mountains. Sometimes we would be like six in the morning
coming in, so we went to bed. I went to bed early because I needed my eight hours. We
would get up, we ate together in different restaurants and places and we then would rest
because we couldn’t eat sooner than two hours before we were going to play, so that was
kind of a restful time, lounging time, and that was a time when we weren’t in close
proximities in what we were doing and we maybe went to a movie or something and
7
�chose different things. 28:53 We would then get dressed and ready to go onto the bus
and the bus would take us to the ball park and then we would work out and I mean work
out, and then play a game and shower, find a place to eat, travel, depending on how far
we had to go, and the next day the same thing. 29:20 There was sometimes a little long
time in a city depending on how far it was and what time was and how long it took to get
there. We still had to take care of our own clothes.
Interviewer: “Wash your own clothes and stuff, wow.”
We would go to a Laundromat, but not the uniform.
Interviewer: “How did the uniform get cleaned?”
I don’t know--the managers took care of that. They took it to a Laundromat or where
ever they could. 29:50
Interviewer: “What were the fans like?”
Very good. In the towns that we were in, they had either a double A or a triple A team
and the diamonds that we played on were good, which was a nice thing.
Interviewer: “You were obviously getting locals that came out to see the teams. Did
you have a lot of girls, women or men or was it more mixed?”
It was mixed, more men than what they might have now because it wasn’t as popular and
we were sort of an entertainment or a show of some kind and people wanted to see what
we were all about. There was advance publicity and quite often we had more fans then
the home team that played there because we were playing when they were out of town.
30:55 We would hear that and when we made a good play we were rewarded with—it
was like a whole surprise for them to see that because we were very good and we came
with the skills and we were naturals. We also exhibited the joy that we had in playing
even though we played the same team all the time; we were still growing and learning.
31:30
Interviewer: “The two teams were they exactly the same or did you switch over and
play catcher for one and then play catcher for another or was it always the same
group playing against the same team?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “That makes sense, so once that was over with and you went back to
Milwaukee, then what happened? What was the next stop in all of this?”
I got a card. I got another card because all thirty of us were put in the “pot” so to speak
and the teams told—this one and that one, and I was asked to go to Kalamazoo,
Michigan, so I want to spring training there and Kenosha didn’t have a catcher at that
time, so I was catching for Kenosha even though I belonged to Kalamazoo and after
spring training Kenosha bought my contract, whatever that was, because when I signed
the contract it was blank. You never knew what you were getting or anything else, you
just signed the contract and you were going to play ball. 32:39
8
�Interviewer: “Now if you’re playing for two different teams, what was the
uniform?”
The same uniform except in a sense it was Kalamazoo and I’m trying to remember that
part of it because I don’t remember it being any different. When I went to Kenosha, I had
their regular uniform.
Interviewer: “Now, on the touring team with the thirty of you, you were already a
professional baseball player, but now with the new team, this is now the American—
the league, so this is different, did you have any sense of going from this to this or
were you just going to keep playing baseball?” 33:45
There was a little bit of that yes, because you’re coming into an already—a team that is in
place, so there’s a lot of difference coming to a team than what we did, because we were
all new to each other in terms of what we were going to do and this team was already in
place. They already had their own ways of what they were doing and who they get along
with, where they go and now we have a home place and then we have on the road, so
your monies are different, you take care of your own stuff when you’re at home and on
the road you get a per dium I call it. 34:35 We all got pretty much the same for that.
Interviewer: “Well, as the newcomer into this team, how did you get along?”
Quietly. Quietly in a sense of interaction. More quiet—you have a different manager,
everybody has their own style, how they do things and I had to learn all that. It wasn’t
too hard to learn it, but you had to learn the differences. Some managers manage a lot
and some managers manage a little and they kind of let you play. It was about the same
thing with the players because they’re older, not much, but they had been playing, so they
have a couple of years under their belt and you’re a “rookie”, you’re a “rookie”. I still
had to carry the bats and things. From my own growing up and my formative years, I
learned how to understand where my place is wherever I am and whomever I’m with.
36:11 That part wasn’t too hard, I could read that and I knew that because I’m a
survivor. You do make friends in the sense of hanging with some more than you do
others and I think there were three or four “rookies” on the team in Kenosha, so we kind
of hung together for a while.
Interviewer: “Was there a point and I know this is kind of a difficult question
because it’s so specific, you’re a “rookie”, was there a moment, was there a period of
time when you felt like you were no longer a “rookie” and whatever you were doing
the went, “oh, she’s good”? 37:05
I got a hit—see, I was a straight away hitter, I wasn’t a long distance hitter, partly
because of my weight and you’re the catcher so you bat eighth and I smacked one over
the second baseman’s head, because we were playing baseball rules now, we’re a bigger
diamond, we’re not on the softball diamond and I got to first base and I said, “It’s about
time”, and I remember it so distinctly and it’s a great, great feeling to do that. I didn’t
9
�throw anybody out at second, but I was pretty close a couple of times and that is a great
moral builder for me anyway. 38:00
Interviewer: “You felt different, but did you notice a difference also from the other
players that you were treated a little bit differently?”
Sure, because we’re a team and that’s how you become a team is learning to play
together and giving lots of kudos when they’re necessary and I never experienced any
player getting down on a another player like, “what did you do that for?” You were the
one that made the mistake, so there was none of that and most managers wouldn’t allow
that. We learned how to be a team by practice and you practiced as hard as you played,
you didn’t sluff-off. 39:04 For me as a catcher, one of the most marvelous things that
can happen and the joy really comes out, is when we have infield practice and you
“around the horn” as we called it, after a certain ply and then you “zip” to first, second,
third, back, back down to second for the shortstop and over to first or the opposite,
because when we played we ‘zipped” the ball, we didn’t just throw, we “zipped” it.
39:37
Interviewer: “Now by this time the charm school and all that had been over with or
did you have to do that too?”
No, I didn’t have to do that.
Interviewer: “You knew about it or you heard about it though?”
Yes, I heard a lot bout it.
Interviewer: “What do you mean, you heard a lot about it?”
Well, they would tell little stories about having to walk down steps with a book on your
head and they thought how ridiculous. Well, how do you walk down the steps with a
book on your head and a “Charlie horse”? It’s bad enough with just the book on your
head. If you had a sore leg or something then—and the next time you walk down steps
what are you looking at? You look down like this and you can’t keep a book on your
head when you do that. That usually pretty much what they talked about and the
etiquette part. They didn’t like—I eat like I eat like I eat and there were a lot of jokes
about different things and we took it all in and it’s a part of the camaraderie, we had great
camaraderie and we still do. 41:00
Interviewer: “Tell me about strawberries.”
I didn’t do too much sliding because of my position in the batting order, but I did have
some when I got on, they weren’t really strawberries, they were more or less things
that—you know when somebody’s coming into home and sliding in home, we didn’t go
head first, we had hook slides, so you had to—I learned from Mr. Allington, I learned
because I was—I didn’t want to get bowled over, so what he taught me was to give him
just a little corner and to turn sideways so that I don’t have the full force and you turn
sideways because then you’re in a position to move your legs and go wherever you need
to go after the ball, but there still were collisions and things like that because you don’t
10
�know where the balls coming from when you begin and I did get knocked over one time
in pro, but it was just the nature of the game. 42:38 Very much how the play happened,
developed and happened. There was nothing like foul play or anything like that; we
purposely didn’t do those things.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?”
I’ll have to tell you, the first time I put that uniform on, I cried because what flooded in
my mind was of this little kid at home playing with the boys and here I am—I get teary
eyed just thinking about it because it was never a dream to become a professional ball
player, the dream was to survive, the dream was to do the best you can in whatever you
do—lit was like winning a game, when you win—oh, that’s great. This was my own
kind of winning and I kind of stood there for a little bit after I was dressed and I said,
“Ah, this is it, this is it”, and I never forgot that. 44:07
Interviewer: “So the actual design and all that didn’t bother you?”
It did to some degree; it did all of us to some degree because we never played in a skirt
fashion. It was all one piece, but it was a skirt on the bottom, there were no legs to go
into, but you had to learn how to play with it, especially some of the pitchers when they
would begin throwing side arm, it just gets in the way, so each one developed a way in
which to fix their uniform either by shortening it a little bit. I had two tucks here and two
tucks in the back so that it would fit comfortably. 45:04 They weren’t tight fitting at all
because we didn’t like that and we didn’t want that at all. It was heavy, it was like heavy
denim and very warm in the summer, in the hot summer, it was very, very warm.
Interviewer: “You had talked about the fan of the traveling team, can you recall the
fans of the team when you went pro?” 45:34
Yes, because there were fans that came all the time and there were some fans that came
once in a while and some of the fans treated some of the ball players very well. A little
money under the table or whatever, invited over to their houses for picnics and stuff like
that if time provided for that, but we didn’t have too much time for that, but they were
very, very good to us. The regulars were very good to us. 46:16
Interviewer: “You mentioned earlier about the traveling team, that it was a mixture
of men and women and things, the professional team you played for, where the fans,
the majority of them, men or women or what?”
A few more women because we were in one place and they get to know you and they
have favorites like any team does have favorites and we played excellent baseball. We
weren’t just entertainment as we were in the beginning, we still were, but not to the
extent, we did what the Brewers do today, but not to that extent. 47:13
Interviewer: “I understand what you’re saying. I think it is really important what
you are saying, that you were still entertainment, but now you’re baseball players
11
�and their watching it for the baseball, professional baseball. In your first season
you told about that one time that you whacked that ball out there, were there any
other particular ones that you can recall that really stick out either on your end or
what you saw?” 47:37
It had to do with the pitchers because I was little. I remember Jeanie Marlow in Kenosha,
she had a screwball, it’s opposite of a curve and they don’t throw it very often, so anyway
about the third batter, it was early in the season and a new team came in and I don’t even
know who the team was, so I gave her the number one sign because that’s a fast ball and
just plain ball and she shook it off and I was wondering what was going on, so I knew she
didn’t want a curve, so I gave her number two and she shook it off and I gave her the
change up and she shook it off and I gave her the screw ball and I just went through the
whole thing and she kept shaking it off, so I called time and I went to see her and I said,
“can you see the signs?” 48:45 She said, “oh yea, I can see the signs ok”, and I said, “can
you see me ok?” We’re starting to loosen up and josh one another and I said, “what’s the
problem?” She said, “Oh, I just wanted to confuse the batter”. Those are the moments of
the different little things that one does in a professional league. Now that might not have
happened with another pitcher, with another pitcher it might be something else or I might
get a sign from a pitcher instead of me giving a sign to the pitcher. That didn’t happen
very often though. 49:33
Interviewer: “When was it, maybe in your first season, or was it later, that you
started to think that maybe this was going to be your career or did you even think
that?”
I never thought it; I was just doing what I loved to do. I just never thought of it. I came
back to Milwaukee and I had to work. I did a little bit of coaching with some younger
kids and played a little bit of slow pitch baseball.
Interviewer: “There’s no comparison.”
No, heavens no there isn’t, but that’s what was going on at that time and that went on to
become a pretty popular thing, so I was staying in the activity of the game and then I got
married and raised children. It isn’t that I didn’t think about playing professional ball,
but we never talked about it. Bob knew when I married him, but we didn’t talk and I
think that if you ask that question to everyone of us they would say the same thing.
50:53 We just went about our business, it was grand, beautiful and we didn’t have that
sense that we were setting standards or overcoming barriers, we just did it. You really
didn’t know the historical impact on things until much later and my three boys—I had a
ten inch ball that was signed by the teams and it was upstairs, so they used the ball and
used my glove, they couldn’t use my shoes of course, and I said, “oh, you can’t use that
ball, can’t you see those signatures on there? That’s when I played professional”, and
they said, “oh yea mom”. 51:50 Well, that was the opening of saying a little bit about
what I did and I said, “well, I played professional ball”, and they said, “yea, yea”, you
know how boys are, but they do know now and they’re very proud of that and they relay
that to other people very easily if we’re out in a group of some kind. One of them will
12
�say, “oh my mom played pro”, and I say, “here we go”. My husband did a lot of that, but
I didn’t do it. I’m learning how a little bit and I pick my times if it’s called for, then I
might. 52:55 I don’t just advertise it and I do give a lot of talks to different groups, very
different kinds of groups and they love to hear about it and that’s a whole new experience
for us again. When you do that you learn the impact of what we did and the style that we
did that. 53:33
Interviewer: “I want to get back to the—you’ve gone through your first season now
ok? How many seasons did you actually play with that team? You were with
Kenosha right? How long did you play with them?”
It was two, one season with them and one season before that. Kenosha in 1951 dropped
out of the league.
Interviewer: “Where did you go from there?”
To work.
Interviewer: “You didn’t play again?”
I didn’t play again. 54:02 It folded, it was terrible and I thought the whole league was
folding, but we went until 1954, but it was absolutely terrible.
Interviewer: “I guess and I don’t want to go somewhere that you don’t want to go,
but what caught me by surprise was that for some reason I thought after Kenosha
you went on to play for another baseball team. Why not?”
Because the Racine Belles were already out and you had less teams and you don’t need
that many ball players and I couldn’t wait, I had to go to work and send money home and
stuff like that and I just—it’s over. One has to understand how the move from one thing
to another because I did a lot of moving in my life and I learned how to accept something
and just move on. 55:20
Interviewer: “Did you see the end coming to the league? You said that in 1951 you
out.”
A little bit within our own team and near the end we weren’t sure we were going to get
paid and that sort of thing and then sometimes the chaperone became the manager and
that sort of thing. By that time there wasn’t an over arching league ownership, by that
time each team had to take care of themselves and I think that was in 1948 or something
like that. Looking back on it, it was pretty much the access and it was going to end and
there was some talk about it. 56:17
Interviewer: “You said that you went back to work and you said that very quickly
and how difficult was it when it ended? It’s over, it’s ended and you’re going back
to work now, what was your reaction?”
13
�You go kick stones, walk the beach and mull things over and cry a little, but one is
quickly drawn into a different kind of life style. You can’t stay there very long—I had to
go on and put bread in the mouth so to speak. We did have some contact with other ball
players and we’re all commiserating about the loss, our joy, our inner joy, play and just
learned how to accept it with clenched teeth. 57:36
Interviewer: “I don’t know about you, but for me it really hit me hard because in a
sense when you talk about going to slow pitch, that’s a huge drop and that had to be
hard to do. I never played professional baseball, but I went through a transition
and from playing to doing slow pitch I just went, “huh, what is this?”
What it does—that’s part of the transition and it wasn’t what it was called and what we
were doing, we were playing. We had the activity, this little child here was out doing
something—playing whatever she could play and the joy of the activity and the
movement of the body and being able to give expression to the body and I was still able
to do that and then I could coach some of that. That’s small little transitions that you
don’t know are happening, but they are you could still throw the ball, you could still bat
the ball and I could still throw and I’ve never had a sore arm because you take care of
yourself and when I throw, I use my body along with it, I’m not just all arm and that’s a
thrill. 59:09 It is a thrill to throw the ball because the whole sense of the body is active
and that’s what helped me to stop kicking stones.
Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you a personal question and if you don’t want to
answer it, please don’t, but you mentioned earlier that you told your husband Bob
about being a ball player. How did you two meet and did he know you were a ball
player? Is there a connection there?”
He didn’t know. A fellow came to work where I was working that had worked where he
was, at a company that he worked at for thirty six years, and he played golf, they had
their own golf team, and Paul and I had already made arrangements to go golfing on
Thursday with his wife and they golfed on Wednesday, so he came to work the next day
and said, “Do you mind of somebody else comes along to make a foursome? :12 I said,
“that’s fine”, so I left work and went home and changed my clothes and met him on the
golf course and went to Paul’s house afterwards and had a light lunch and then he was on
vacation someplace and about two or three weeks later Paul comes to me and said, “could
I give him your phone number?” I said, “is that Bob?” And he said it was and I said,
“ok” because I had to know who it was and I made my own decisions around those
things. 1:02 On our first date we went to a Packer game, a Packer game here in
Milwaukee at the old Marquette Stadium and it was a kind of foggy, rainy night, but the
Packers won, it was that Bishops game, and then we met Paul and Fran downtown and
we had dinner and danced and all of that. We went together pretty well after that and that
was in August and I was engaged in October and married in January. All from meeting
on the golf course. 1:52
Interviewer: “When did you tell him about being a baseball player?”
14
�I don’t really remember, but not too long after that because he knew that I was interested
in sports and he played softball and I think he got the idea that to get to me we had to
participate in sports and I think it just kind of came out in natural conversation.
Interviewer: “In the earlier conversation we were having, you said that he liked to
talk about the fact that you were playing baseball.”
Yes, because I wouldn’t and he was proud of that and most of the players, when they left,
didn’t talk about it much. If they did any talking, they did it with each other if they were
in contact with one another. 2:57
Interviewer: “I’m so pleased to hear your boys and that they seemed to like the fact
that mom played baseball professionally too.”
They have come a long way with that. They were very young and I taught them a lot of
things. I think they gradually came to understand that I knew something because I was
teaching them. They played a little ball, but they liked swimming and auto mechanics
and all that sort of stuff and I learned then what was happening to me when I was little. I
wanted to do what I wanted to do and each individual boy does, they’re all mechanics
and machinists, but they’ve learned to be their own person and they are very different.
3:48
Interviewer: “This is going to be a tougher question digging into your memory, but
when did you first start and I don’t need a date or anything, but when did you first
start realizing, after the fact, what you had participated in, enjoyed so much, was
very proud of, but still didn’t talk a whole lot about, other people were starting to
go, “Hey, did you know about that?” When did you first realize that you guys
participated in something that you didn’t think was very important at the time, but
a lot of other people were?”
4:27
See I, because I had a married name, they didn’t catch up with me for a while and so
when I found out that we were in the Hall of Fame.
Interviewer: “You didn’t know?”
I didn’t know. I was at a house with Marge Peters, who had played before me in 1944,
and she didn’t know that I had played because I was in 1950 and 1951, so they were
always looking for different ones and a group of us were together at her house and there
was a long hallway and there was her wall of honor and my picture was up there and so
she told me and she showed me the video from Cooperstown. 5:16 Well, I’ll tell you, I
beat my chest. I just beat my chest because “this little one”, which I was called, did
something, I said, “I wish my mother was here now” because she really didn’t approve,
but she knew that I needed to do those things and we finally agreed to that. 6:06 I think
that when you do what you really love to do that it is a gift and when we exercise and
grow out of our gifts, that’s where we go in life and there’s a different joy in learning that
than there is the playing. The joy is monumentus, it’s like “this little kid did it” you
15
�know because I had to prove myself all the time. 6:52 All the time I was proving myself
to myself as well and there isn’t anything better than proving yourself to yourself. It
gives momentum to what you do and there’s opportunity then to share that. We now
share that with each other. We still can come to reunions and meet somebody you
haven’t met before, but you know that they’ve played and we share the same thing, all the
ups and downs, ins and outs, hurts and bruises and strawberries and stories. 7:39 We
begin to tell our own stories within our group.
Interviewer: “You said something earlier about not talking about it, the fact that
your husband was very proud of you and did more talking about it than you,
because you wouldn’t, your kids finally got to the point of realizing it. Why do you
want to talk about it now?” 8:04
It’s valuable. It’s history. If we don’t tell our stories there’s no history to anything if the
stories aren’t told and when I give talks, I say that to the mothers, I tell the mothers that
they have to support their child in what the child likes to do—they may change their mind
in two weeks and they need to tall their story and the grand parents need to love them to
pieces because those are the important things for a child when they’re growing up. 8:55
As I said before, it was very difficult growing up, but all of that is who I am and when I
began to recognize that playing baseball was a very important part of my living and
growing up and who I am and we need to share that with everybody and anybody who
wants to know or will listen and that’s important for the other person also. 9:27
Interviewer: “I have two last questions for you. One you answered in part
throughout, so I’m just going to ask you this: How did the experience of baseball,
pro baseball affect you as a person and how you became the person you are today?”
Learning how to get along really. In college I’m a broad field social science major
educated in secondary education and I was broad field because of all the things that I was
learning, because when you meet at a very young age somebody from New Jersey and
somebody from the south, Atlanta or whatever, Cuba, Canada, each one of us teach each
other who they are and we begin to look at that and recognize that broadens our horizons
of how we view our world. 10:37 The capability then of interacting with people in a
situation no matter where we are. I often say in my talks that we were taught how to be
professional people on the field and off the field very much so.
Interviewer: “You talked earlier also using the word history and as you know, we
have Dr. Smither here in the history department at Grand Valley State University
and I’m a documentary film maker, so I’m going to ask you this very specific
question. Where do you think the All American Girls Professional Baseball League
fits in the whole scheme of history?” 11:24
The development of women, to be given the opportunities to do who they are. Every
person who is alive has desires and things that they like and dislike and if one only does
as one is told or put in a niche or to be seen and not heard we have lost something. That
person has lost something, the world has lost something, not just the United States, but
16
�the whole world has lost something because we’re still part of the human race, we’re not
just what someone else thinks we are. We have to learn to live out from within instead of
having to fulfill somebody else’s ideas of what we are. I’m very strong on that because I
had the privilege of living that out. I always say, “I had a health dose of stubbornness”,
but that’s what it takes. There are so many facets to the development of the human being
that intellectually, physically, emotionally, all of that and the more we do that the more
we are who we are and we can interact with other people of the world. I can reach out
and I can say, “hi, thank you, good to meet you”, and I do that with the kids and if we
don’t do that, what are we? 13:53 It just so happens that through sports, it could have
been any sport because most of us played all sports and in that is the interaction between
us and if I throw the ball to you and you throw the ball back to me, we have a relationship
and if we don’t know how to have relationships with people, oh man, we’re in trouble,
we’re in deep trouble if we don’t, that’s what we’re here for. 14:36
Interviewer: “I still didn’t get a complete answer to the history question. Where do
you think the, and I love what you just said, don’t get me wrong, but I want to focus
on—from your perspective where does the team fit in terms of history? Were do
you just a baseball team? Where do you think it fits into all of this?”
You know, we grew up in a time when we were at WWII and my husband was in WWII,
I had two of my brothers in WWII and we took care of the homefront in the sense of—
when we played we made a V from home plate past the pitchers mound, one team here
and one team there and that V was for victory, that’s what that was for. We played at
Fort Sheridan for the soldiers there and for the navy people at Great Lakes and that was
usually in the springtime for exhibitions and things like that. 15:43 We helped to sell
war bonds in the sense of our appearances. We didn’t physically handle that, but it was
because of whom we were and what we were doing that the war bonds were sold and we
saved Aluminum foil and made it into baseballs and threw them around. We were a part
of the homefront; I think a very large part of the homefront. To give entertainment where
there wasn’t much. You didn’t have much money, there was gas rationing and we took
care of the people in that sense that were in a geographical area.
Interviewer: “Now that part you did feel at the time, right? You did feel that
part?”
Sure right.
Interviewer: “You may not have understood the significance of the baseball and
what it was going to do for future generations, but you did feel that it was part of
the war effort like “Rosie the Riveter”, the WACS or the WAVES or anybody?”
17:08
Absolutely, we were very much aware of sort of a role, I would call it a role, that a—that
actually helped to keep people who worked very hard and long hours, they had a chance
to relax and had a chance to interact with us, and we with them, in a very positive way.
We were always in tune with what was going on, always. 17:49 We began every game
with the “Star Spangled Banner” and we were very in tune to “God Bless America” with
17
�the fat lady singing. Had to hear the fat lady sing and you know what we did when we
traveled? We sang all the time and it was the singing that helped us in the sense of
fulfilling what it is that the people at home had to go through and keep the moral—we
were moral boosters, I would say for whomever came in contact with us. 18:39
Interviewer: “A couple random questions, any particular incidents, events
highlights anywhere in that period of time you were playing that you, for whatever
reason, would like to have on the record? Maybe the kids want to hear about or
grandchildren would finally hear about. Just something, it doesn’t even have to be
baseball related per say, but what in that period of time when you were playing pro
ball, any particular things that may have happened that come to your head?” 19:10
Well, there are two things. One thing is the travel and realizing that we are part of a
larger thing and the other one is baseball and it has to do with playing in Yankee
Stadium. As we were traveling through and came to Newark, New Jersey again and we
played in the old Griffith Stadium in Washington, D.C. and that was our first time to play
within a major league ballpark, “marvelous”. 19:57 Of course you’re in Newark when
you go across the water there and go to Yankee Stadium and that’s where I met Yogi
Berra because I was on that side and when he was starting out and I was so excited
because I think we parked like two miles away, I left my shoes on the bus and that’s how
excited we were to be in Yankee Stadium. To walk inside for the first time as a very
young person to see Yankee Stadium, you’re looking around and “oh my goodness”. At
that time it was pretty much “the stadium” and to meet the players that we met was a—
Yogi asked me if I wanted to use his bat—well, first of all Yogi liked a thick handle and a
heavy thing out here, it was a club, and if I had picked it up and swung it, I would still be
going around in circles. I saw his wrists and his wrists were really big and you had to
have those kinds of wrists to use a bat like that. The whole experience at Yankee
Stadium was memorable in terms of baseball. 21:21
Interviewer: “Was part of it because you were professional? You’re not just a fan
walking into Yankee Stadium; you’re walking in as a professional into Yankee
Stadium.”
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Like I say, we went to Griffith Stadium first on the way up
from town and the difference between a AAA league diamond and major league, there’s
no comparison, it’s just awesome and I use that word not casually, it’s awesome. I
realized why the Yankees had great catchers—because the distance between home plate
and the backstop, you could put a softball diamond in, I mean it was very far. 22:19 You
knew you couldn’t have a fat ball, no fat balls in Yankee Stadium because they could
take two bases instead of one and I think that’s why they had such good catchers and
good hitters. They had catchers that were very good hitters. It was a professional
meeting, absolutely, and a lot of the kids that were there still talk about it. We’re proud
to have been there and rubbed elbows with the “biggies” and just like young kids now are
proud to meet us in that vein. 23:18 When you tell the story, you relive the emotions.
18
�Interviewer: “Well, there are a few of us older “fogies” here that kind of special
being here with you too. I’m not quite the older “fogie” yet, I’m not going to admit
to it though although—I have a question and I’m sure you’ve been asked it a
hundred times, but what did you think of the movie?” 23:48
The movie was good because it was based on fact even though it was a fictional story and
that’s Hollywood and Hollywood eyes. A lot of embellishments that we sit and laugh at
and I think the only thing we were concerned with was in the beginning, when we saw
the move, was a little bit of the language. There wasn’t a lot of that, but we’re thinking
of it in terms of showing young people and I think there’s a version out that doesn’t have
that in and I’m happy about that because it needs to be in the schools and whether it’s
elementary, high school, college or whatever. 24:33
Interviewer: “You will be happy to know that when we first started about doing
this project, the Library of Congress project with women’s baseball, when I talked
to my students and there was not a lot of knowledge about it, but when you said,
League of Their Own, they knew and said, “oh, I loved that movie”, and then I said,
“I’m going to meet the real women” and they went “wow”. I look at it from a
different perspective, I watched the movie and I love tom Hanks and I love Geena
Davis and for me it was more of a Hollywood version, but it did give you the
overview of the experience of walking into that ballpark. eeina Davis walks in and
there’s all those players playing, it had to be close to being real, oh yeah. 25:32
I thought that Penny Marshall was very astute in how it was put together because when I
was in Chicago when we were first asked to come and tryout for six speaking parts and
then we went to Cooperstown and I wondered, “how are they going to do this without
being trite about things and just throw an idiom in there somehow or another and have it
make sense”, but she made sense all the way through, all the way through. There were
integral parts of the story that said what it is and what won support for a lot of us was
when Tom Hanks is talking to Geena Davis when she’s leaving to go to Oregon. Well, I
saw the premieer in Fort Wayne, we had a premiere there and when he said, “of course
it’s hard, if it wasn’t hard, anybody could do it”, well there’s another chest going thing,
but we were quiet, it was so quiet that you could hear all the motors and stuff underneath
that handle everything in that theater. That’s how quiet it was because we were crying.
What I said about having to learn to survive and go through a lot of stuff, that was
another way of saying that, but a way that was acceptable to other people. It helped us to
be acceptable because we went through a lot of unacceptability, but we didn’t let it
change us, it helped us to grow. 27:30
Interviewer: I was moved by that too, in fact I teach writing at Grand Valley and I
say that about writers, the same thing. “It’s hard work and if it was easy,
everybody could do it”. I really felt that too.”
If you are doing what you really love to do, you will do it, no matter how hard it is, but
that makes it what it is or anybody could do it. 28:05
Interviewer: “That was wonderful, that was wonderful.”
19
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_JBaumgart
Title
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Baumgart, Jacqueline Mattson (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Baumgart, Jacqueline Mattson
Description
An account of the resource
Jacqueline Baumgart (née Mattson) was born in Waukegan, Illinois. She grew up in Waukegan area and played with the neighborhood boys. She played outfield positions as a kid. In 1942, her family moved to Milwaukee, WI where she played with as a catcher for a few local softball teams. Eventually, she was scouted for the All American Girls Baseball League. At the start of her first spring training she had not been assigned to a team yet. She was eventually assigned to the Springfield Sallies in 1950. She played the 1950 season with them and was then traded to the Kenosha Comets and played the 1951 season with them. One of her main career highlights was having the opportunity to play as a professional in Yankee Stadium.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-25
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5092a94e7a78b7c270892bde9e9df49f.m4v
f07ec4764b9b29a611f08f1982cfb6d0
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6531d57d37a35878d16b558e3f012b62.pdf
a6e927403c9beeae56794767a3c57154
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
HELEN FILARSKI
Women in Baseball
Born: 1924 Detroit, MI
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit,
Michigan at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, November 26, 2010
Interviewer: “Helen, if we could begin with your full name and where and when
were you born?”
My whole name is Helen Margaret Filarski and I was born in 1924.
Interviewer: “Where?”
In Detroit, Michigan
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like? Where did you live?”
I lived in Detroit, Michigan and most of the time it was—the war was on and there was
no—it was before the war was on I should say and I was going to school in Detroit, the
Catholic school. 14:17
Interviewer: “Did you wear a uniform?”
No, not at first, it’s when you’re out of the eighth grade that you start with the uniform.
Interviewer: “I had the white sox with the black shoes and the girls had the skirts
with the white sox, yup, yup. Where did you live? I know it was Detroit, but did
you live in an apartment or a house?”
No, we lived in the east side of Detroit and my mother and father and there were seven
children. The war was on and most of them at that time were in war plants because the
war was on and everything, so we just stayed there and I went to Holy Name School for
1
�eight years and graduated from there and went to St. Joseph’s because my mother had
gone there, so we all followed up in the Polish atmosphere. 15:46
Interviewer: “So you had neighborhood friends and did you play games?”
Played games—I was one of seven children, so the girls, I didn’t consider myself a girl
because I went with my brother and we played ball all the time. The boys got away with
it you know, so I stuck with him and we played ball and most of my time with them we
played and like everybody else, we had one bat and one ball and I got the job to sew the
ball up every time after we played because we knocked the stuffing out of it, but then we
had to sew it up before we could play a game. 16:41 I would keep that up and I went
through grade school and I played all that way and then I went to high school.
Interviewer: “Now, were there any organized sports at the school?”
No, not at grade school they didn’t have any.
Interviewer: “But you’re playing baseball basically with other neighbor kids?”
We would get out of school and out we would go. We lived right next to a playground
and that was one thing you know, we would go out the door and over the street and we
played until it got dark and that was it every day you know. 17:34 Because I was a girl,
my mother would call me every once in a while, “get in here and do the dishes”, and I
didn’t enjoy that, but what do you do? We did that all my life through eighth grade then
when I graduated out of grade school—oh, in the summer time my mother, since we were
so poor and they didn’t have a job, my father got a job cleaning the streets at that time
because there wasn’t any war plants. My mother would make a big lunch and everything
and my dad would drive out to a plot that the city gave you and make a garden and we
would sit out there all day working on the planting. 18:40 Then my dad would come
2
�back after he got through with his job and pick us up. There were about four of us at that
time that went there and they took us home and we got ready for dinner and everything
and that was every day, you know, that we had time to get over there.
Interviewer: “By the time you got into high school, did you have any idea what you
wanted to do through life? Were you going to be a nurse or be a mother, what were
you thinking?”
Well, through those years I played ball at the city park and I played with the girls that
were in the league and mostly I was too young and that and I would pick-up the bats and
chase the ball and stuff like that. 19:43
Interviewer: “So is this the actual professional girls’ baseball league?”
Yes
Interviewer: “How did you hear about them?”
Oh, I learned a lot from them you know.
Interviewer: “But how did you hear about them? How did you know they were
there?”
Here’s the playground, here’s the street, here’s my house, I mean we lived right upon it
and anybody that would get on that field we could see and if there was an open space, a
position open, I ran over there and played in it, the boys or whoever is playing.
Interviewer: “How did you hear about the All American Girls Professional Baseball
League though?”
Alright, when we played, a bunch of girls were in the league and I got good enough to
play with them and on their team, so I played and everybody said, “why don’t you go join
us for this year, you’re good enough to go over there”. 20:52
3
�Interviewer: “So they were off season, they were from Detroit and they went to
play wherever they played and when they came back, that’s when you were playing
with them?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Ok, now I get it, so did you go and talk to your mom and dad about
it?’
Oh, I kept talking to her all the time, but it was no use and she would say, “girls don’t
play ball, just come in the house and do some work around the house”, all housework all
the time.
Interviewer: “You had told me a story about how you heard about tryouts in
Chicago, let’s hear that story.”
Through the girls, we kept going to the park and that and I heard the story about it and the
girls kept asking me, “come on, come on with us, don’t stay here”, so I went and asked
my mother and she said, “you’re too young, you can’t leave home alone, you’re too
young to go”, and she said, “Al Capone is in here and he’s trying to get a league together
of women and it’s not for playing ball and you’re not going anywhere near that
playground again”, so it just kept a going and I kept playing there. 22:27 I kept playing
until I got out of high school.
Interviewer: “So you had to have her permission to be able to join the league and
she wouldn’t let you.”
No
Interviewer: “So when you turned was it eighteen? What did you do?”
4
�Eighteen, yes and I said, “I’ll run away”, and she didn’t like the idea of me running away,
so she said, “let me talk to some of the girls, Connie Wisnwiewski, and a lot of the girls
that were on the team and they were my friends and I had them over and everything and
she talked to them and they said, “she’ll be all right, we’ll take care of her”, and I was
about the youngest one there then and when I got to spring training they got me in real
good you know. “You Polock, you go and stay in the room and when we call you bring
down the fire escape and bring us in”, so that’s what I was doing for a while. 23:40 I
was the best friend.
Interviewer: “So your mom finally says it’s ok to go. What does your dad think
about all this?”
My dad didn’t care. Hhe didn’t care.
Interviewer: “So, how did you actually go to the spring training? Did you go by
train, did you go by bus?”
We did, we went by train.
Interviewer: “And you were with the other girls that you knew, so you felt kind of
taken care of?”
Yes, placing you where you were going to play, I got on a team, Rockford, with no
friends of mine and I didn’t know anybody.
Interviewer: “Did you have to try out? Did you have to try out for the team?”
Yes
Interviewer: “What was that experience? What was that like, the tryouts?”
You’re scared, you’re scared and there were girls from the league out there and they
would hit the ball to me. Connie Wisnwiewski was the best pitcher there was at the time,
5
�so she would do the pitching—running and everything, teaching you, but they made a
fool of me. 25:04 They’ll do that, they will kid around with ya, but I tried to do it my
own same way.
Interviewer: “But you got in.”
Oh yeah, I got in
Interviewer: “That must have been a happy day?”
Oh, it was fine, but it took me and got me into a house. When you get on a team they
check you into a house, so this was mom and dad Gorenson and they had no children and
they had a beautiful home and everything, but they said to them, “keep an eye on her
because she’s underage and we don’t want any problems”, so it was “where you going?”
They kept their eye on me. 25:57
Interviewer: “Did you have a room mate?”
Yes, she was a movie star, Kay Rohrer, and she would go out and she would say, “don’t
forget, I will call you when I want to come back in”, so she would call and if we were on
the road, she would call and I’d let down the fire escape otherwise I would wait and put
the light on so she would see the light and that the road was clear and she would come in
and we did that for two seasons.
Interviewer: “What was your first season like as a rookie?” 26:36
Scared, you’re really scared when you play with these gals who know their position and
what’s going on instead of waiting for someone to say, “now you go there and you go
there”. They put you in your position and they taught you—you learned and you would
stay on that field until you fell down. You learned to not be afraid of the ball and it was
good, it was really great. 27:12
6
�Interviewer: “What position did you play the first season?”
Third base
Interviewer: “As a rookie, did you start or did you sit on the bench a lot?”
No, I started I started.
Interviewer: “Even though you were scared, you must have been pretty good?”
I didn’t mind it and I was tough you know, I would run and go after that ball because I
was going to stop it if it killed me. When you were a rookie, you were going to fight
your heart out and that’s what I did and it was a strong team.
Interviewer: “Any particular game that you remember from the first season? Was
there anything that you did that was good or maybe made a mistake?” 28:03
I don’t know, I’m telling you; I ended up in the hospital.
Interviewer: “What happened?”
Well, I got spiked a couple of times down my legs sliding into third base you know and I
think that’s what the worst one was, but that was it.
Interviewer: “How did you like the uniform?”
Oh, it was free you know and they gave you a lot of free time there.
Interviewer: “Did you have to alter it at all for your height or anything?”
The first year no, but the second year we did because it was a little bit long.
Interviewer: “One of the girls said the difficulty was that she played in the outfield
and as you reached down for the ball, you got dress and you didn’t get the ball you
got the skirt.”
Right, it’s just like in the infield, you’re down here and you go down for the ball and
here—the ball is right there. 29:14
7
�Interviewer: “Now, once you finished your first season, you came back home to
Detroit?”
Oh yeah
Interviewer: “Then what did you do when you got home? Were you still in school?
You were out of school, right?”
No, no I wasn’t in school, but in-between there I went to the war factory. I was two years
in the war factory and then I was able to—my age could get me out you know, so that’s
where I went.
Interviewer: “You were in Detroit though?”
Yes
Interviewer: “So that was one of the factories that was supporting the war.”
Yes
Interviewer: “So then how did you—your second season, did they send you a letter?
Did they call up your house and say we want a new contract?”
Yeah, they send a letter and tell you it’s—we met in spring training.
Interviewer: “Ok, and once again you took the train?” 30:12
Yes
Interviewer: “Did you still travel with the same girls that you did before?”
Oh yeah, there were about seven or eight of us from Detroit that—and every year they
probably picked up on or two girls, so it got big and it was very nice.
Interviewer: “So the second year you weren’t a rookie any more?”
No, no and boy, you better know your steps. It was great and you just knew what you
were doing.
8
�Interviewer: “How were the fans?”
Oh, the fans just loved ya I’m telling ya. They would be in there and we had a lot of
attendance. They were there all the time. It was great.
Interviewer: “Now you played some games at home and then you also had road
trips?”
Yes, four games at home one time and three on the road and then three home and four on
the road.
Interviewer: “What were the road trips like?”
Bumpy, we just had a beat-up bus and oh my god I’m telling you it was really something.
It was worse than these that go down the street. 31:34
Interviewer: “These were fairly long trips by bus?”
A lot of them, like you would go to Chicago, that was a long one from Peoria or
something like that. That was about the longest one I think, from Peoria over into
Chicago there.
Interviewer: “Now, when you stopped along the way were you just able to walk out
with in your blue jeans?”
No, if you stopped there and you intended to get off the bus you gotta put your skirt on.
You couldn’t be seen in public in shorts or anything like that. 32:16
Interviewer: “Right, did you have to go through the charm school, the school?”
Ya, it was the first year the charm school was there.
Interviewer: “I’m sorry, I should have gotten back—how was that?”
9
�Oh, everybody laughed about it at first. They made us scared you know, because we
couldn’t get out there and play ball because we were doing this and everything you know,
and what did we want to do that for.
Interviewer: “Did you have to have a book on your head?”
No, but some did
Interviewer: “Well, did they ask you to sit down in a certain way? Did you also
learn how to use the knife and fork and things like that?”
Well, your woman who taught us-Interviewer: “Helena Rubenstein?” 33:27
Yeah, she was one, and they taught us how to get up and how to sit down and some of
them would just mock them and come in and plop down.
Interviewer: “But this was new to you, you were a city girl, right and playing with
the boys and now you got to sit this way?”
Yes, and I was scared and you would get scared at doing these things, but I loved it just
as much.
Interviewer: “Did any of those things carry on for the rest of your life? Do you still
sit that way?”
No, no and if I want to sit down, I sit down. 34:17
Interviewer: “So, your second season, you’re not a rookie anymore and you’re still
playing third base?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Any games that you can think of that were a little bit unusual and did
you have a good year?”
10
�Oh, we had a good year, we won the championship the first year that I played and that
was good.
Interviewer: “Because of you?”
No, I helped a little bit and I had a good year there and if I couldn’t do it with my glove, I
would do it with my body.
Interviewer: “You said earlier that your family was not wealthy and you were
making pretty good money weren’t you?”
Yeah, it was more than I did in the factory. I mean we were still at the war a couple more
years I think into it and we were still at war.
Interviewer: “Did you send money home?” 35:20
Yeah, oh yeah I sent it and I didn’t have anyplace to spend it because you can’t do
anything anyway.
Interviewer: “At that time Helen, you’re a professional baseball player and
whether your mother believed it or not, you really were a professional baseball
player. Were you thinking that was something you were going to keep doing every
year?”
Well, I didn’t hear about it at first, but I wanted to get into it and once I got into it I loved
it you know.
Interviewer: “But did you think you were going to be able to play this for a
number of years?”
No, I would just do it day by day and figure it out just as good as you can and you do
what you can.
11
�Interviewer: “Did you have any idea what you wanted to do professionally with
your life? Did you want to become a nurse or did you want to become anything?”
No, I just wanted to play ball all day long. 36:31
Interviewer: “So, at the end of the second season you came back to Detroit and you
worked in the same factory?”
No, you couldn’t go back there.
Interviewer: “So, did you get a job?”
No, I don’t think I did.
Interviewer: “You were living at home with mom and dad?”
Yeah, and working around there.
Interviewer: “Now the third season comes along and you’re not playing for the
same team anymore, right?”
Let me see, I went to Peoria and Kenosha for one year after that and then went to South
Bend for three years.
Interviewer: “But the Kenosha experience—how come they transferred you to
Kenosha? Do you remember why?” 37:29
Well, they probably had an opening. Either somebody got hurt or you never know if they
didn’t have a good player there.
Interviewer: “So, you’re playing with one team and the next thing you know you’re
playing with another team.”
That’s right, you can go overnight, a lot of times you play ball that night and then as soon
as you start packing in the dressing room and out you go to another city. That’s how they
went when they were short on players.
12
�Interviewer: “Was the experience at Kenosha a good one?”
Oh yeah, it was a good one, getting use to the girl next to you, you know, it takes a little
time, so they make you play a little longer and you get different plays and it works out
good, so I stayed there for that year. 38:37
Interviewer: “Good, then back again to Detroit?”
Yes
Interviewer: “And then you play another year?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “This time you’re with the new team, South Bend and they had a
pretty good team didn’t they?”
Oh yes, they did and three years I played with them and they were very good. They had a
lot of old time ball players. I mean they didn’t get any new ones like the other teams got
and it’s hard to get use to playing next to somebody like that, going after the ball or
playing to the right team. 39:38
Interviewer: “Now, you’re playing for a number of years as a professional baseball
player and even at that point you’re still not thinking that this is going to be your
career?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Did you think that you were just going to keep playing?”
I never thought that it would last that long you know. We played night after night
wondering how long we were going to be together because sometimes they were talking
you know, about breaking up and things like that, but we never did, so we just kept on
playing.
13
�Interviewer: “What was your last year? You lasted until?”
1950
Interviewer: “The league went on until 1954, how come you left in 1950?” 40:31
I got married, yes in 1950 I got married
Interviewer: “And you just decided that you weren’t going you play baseball
anymore?”
Yeah, and things were getting different and my boyfriend Donald Steffes said, “it’s either
me or baseball”, so I quit and got married.
Interviewer: “So, after that, after you finished, did you miss playing baseball?”
Oh, yeah you do
Interviewer: “Did you ever play another sport after that?”
No, I was married and lived the married life.
Interviewer: “Did you talk about your baseball experience after you were done?”
41:34
Oh, we always talked about it, anyone we met we talked about it and I use to come to the
reunions too and continue to come.
Interviewer: “Well, how did you hear about—did you come to the first reunion?”
Yeah, I think I’ve been to all of them, oh yeah.
Interviewer: “All of them, now let me ask you a real dumb question, why do you
come to the reunions?”
To see, to meet and talk baseball, that’s all we do you know, we get there and we tell
about all these crazy plays we make or something and they will say, “oh, you were so
14
�dumb, you were supposed to the other base”, and they all laugh about it you know. It
was great and the best part of my life.
Interviewer: “What are some of the stories that you tell at the reunion?” 42:32
Oh, I don’t know
Interviewer: “Well third base gets a lot of action.”
Oh yeah, yeah it does
Interviewer: “Especially when you have bases loaded.”
Right, right
Interviewer: “Well, let me ask you this, you did talk about your experiences with
baseball and a lot of the girls never talked about it, didn’t tell their kids, didn’t tell
anybody.”
Oh yeah, you ought to see my room and what I got, pictures and everything and I’ve
gotta—and after seeing those pictures downstairs I start saying mine aren’t so good
because they’re great.
Interviewer: “Were people interested in talking about baseball?”
Anybody that met me would talk about it and, “are you still playing?”
The first question anybody will ask you, “are you still going back?” 43:31
Interviewer: “Did you get a chance to see the movie “A League of Their Own”?”
Yeah, we were in it, we were in it and we were showing them how not to throw it so hard
and we laughed and had more fun with that.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie?”
We thought it was great and I thought it was great. A lot of them that saw it came out
came out of their shell and said, “never knew there was any ball league”, and those
15
�pictures they had over here, they aught to put them in a book. You talk to somebody and
they say, “I didn’t know that”. 44:30
Interviewer: “What do you make of all the—the movie came out and in some ways
you’re treated like movie stars. What do you think about that?”
Well, we were for a while there you know. We did some crazy things with them I’m
telling you. Every time you would hit the ball or something they would say, “don’t throw
it so hard”, or something and we just sat down and laughed because they wanted to make
the picture, but they didn’t want to do the business, but it was great, the whole thing you
know.
Interviewer: “You went to Cooperstown?”
Yes
Interviewer: “How was that experience of getting inducted into the hall of fame?”
That was great, that was the first time I saw the whole thing you know and it is just
beautiful there. 45:30
Interviewer: “the movie, I thought, did a pretty good job out of showing the
reactions of the players in there and were you in that scene in the movie?”
Yes
Interviewer: “I’ll look for you the next time I look at it, Ok?”
Yes
Interviewer: “It’s interesting because I teach at the university level and the kids are
usually anywhere from eighteen to twenty and when I told them I’m doing this
documentary about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, and A
league of their Own, they get all excited over it.”
16
�Everybody loves it and they say, “are you—did you see that picture?” I say, “ yeah, I
was in it”, and they say, “you were?” It was really great and we loved it all the time we
were working on it.
Interviewer: “That was just a few years of your life, a small part of your life, but
how do you look back on that period now? How do you look at it? Is it some thing
that’s very special to you or is it something that just happened? Have you had a
chance to think about it?” 46:41
It’s very special to me because I lived for it and a month before I had to leave town, I was
packing, so it meant everything to us and kids would say, “where is everybody?” They
are different people you know and there was something, the love for the game and we
still loved the people around there and talked to them. We didn’t think we were stars or
anything.
Interviewer: “But you played professional baseball.” 47:41
Yeah, that’s right
Interviewer: “One other question for you, did your mom ever get a chance to see
you play baseball?”
Yes, I think she saw one game and she would say, “I’m not going to watch you get hurt, I
can’t watch you get hurt”, and that’s the first thing she always thought of. She would
say, “you’re going to get hurt”, and I said, “well when the ball is hit to me real hard, I’ll
get out of the way ma”, and she would say, “Yeah, I’ll believe that when I see it”
Interviewer: “You said earlier that your dad didn’t care one way or the other, did
he get a chance to see you play?” 48:28
17
�He probably did, but he wasn’t interested in it. Girls should be in the house, you know,
and wash the dishes. I’m so sick of washing dishes.
Interviewer: “When did your parents find out that you played for the league? Did
they know early on?”
Not really, not really it didn’t mean anything to them that I went out of town. They
thought anybody can do that, we all play ball.
Interviewer: “But that all changed.”
Oh yeah and as the years go by it means more to them.
Interviewer: “You have a special family her, this—you have your own family, but
you have another family that’s all these other girls and all their daughters and their
sons and whatnot.”
We have a big family when we all get together and they all feel the same way and the
mothers talk just like they do, you know. 49:47
Interviewer: “What do you think about this All American Girls Professional
Baseball League? It’s part of American history now.”
Yes, yes it is
Interviewer: “Did you ever think it was going to be that big of a deal?”
No, it was getting slowly and they would get it out there once in a while, but they get it
out there now and everybody says, “A League of Their Own is on”, and everybody is
going and I say, “A League of Their Own”.
Interviewer: “If it’s on TV I can’t change the channel, I just—I don’t care where it
starts or where it ends, I just watch it. My favorite scene is the Tom Hanks and
Geena Davis when she’s about to go with her husband and leave and she said it got
18
�too hard and he said, “It’s supposed to be hard, if it wasn’t hard everybody could do
it”. 50:46
Yeah
Interviewer: “That’s an amazing scene and I use that in class, you gotta work at it.”
It makes sense
Interviewer: “did you get a chance to travel to other countries? Some of the girls
went to Cuba.”
Yes, I did
Interviewer: “How was that experience?”
I don’t know really.
Interviewer: “Just another ball game?”
It’s another ball game, it’s another country and they start talking and I say, “ya, ya, sure”,
you don’t know what they’re talking about and they touch you. We were walking in a
parade coming to the stadium one time and they touch you and get on the floor and
holler, they just go out of their minds. They toss somebody and the guys that are keeping
the line straight and they go up to them and are beating them with a Billy club and they
didn’t care how they hit them. 52:05
Interviewer: “The public was just going crazy about it, so the police came?”
Outside yeah, the police would get them if they would stick in their hand to touch you.
Interviewer: “Where else did you travel to besides Cuba? Did you go any other
places?”
Yeah, I went on the train, I’m trying to think where I went in the wintertime. I played
somewhere, I forgot already.
19
�Interviewer: “Was it South America? No”
I was in Puerto Rico
Interviewer: “Once again, just another ball game?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “No Billy clubs this time I hope.”
No, sometimes they will just run in and do something and run out. Somebody had been
talking and they said it’s like holy people when they run out and throw their arms up and
holler. It’s something sacred and that’s why they come and run out. You got to stop it
because the parade is going on. 53:33
Interviewer: “They thought you were somehow holy people, huh?”
Yeah, little do they know, huh?
Interviewer: “Well Helen it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Is there any story that
you just want to be able to tell because I know you talk to your friends about things.
Are there any stories that you can think of off the top of your head?”
Right now I can’t remember.
Interviewer: “All right.”
20
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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application/pdf
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eng
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2017-10-02
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
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RHC-58_HFilarski
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Filarski, Helen (Interview transcript and video), 2010
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Filarski, Helen
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Helen Filarski Steffes was born in Detroit, Michigan in 1924. She grew up playing baseball with boys in the neighborhood. She met some of the players from the All American league who encouraged her to try out, and went on to play third base for Rockford, Peoria, Kenosha and South Bend between 1944 and 1950.
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Women
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2010-07-02
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fff4db0931b72f7532359498cdb682a4.m4v
72ed15cc84d8bda66515f1060fc06225
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/428f12781a3bd30360554b6dce3001a6.pdf
9d94cfc8650e7efc9c87ceb92ddb1a91
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
ELMA WEISS
Women in Baseball
Born: Columbus, Ohio
Resides: Phoenix, Arizona
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 7, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, January 4, 2011
Interviewer: “Now Elma, can you begin by giving us a little bit of background on
yourself?”
Yes, I was born in Columbus, Ohio in 1923 and we’ll skip the early years.
Interviewer: “I would like to ask a little bit about the early years. What did your
family do for a living in those days?”
Well, originally farmers, everybody was a farmer in that era and he was an electrician.
He had a lot of work with professional buildings. He wired hospitals and businesses and
part of the Ohio State University stadium because we lived in Columbus just a short
distance from the campus. 55:12
Interviewer: “Did you grow up in Columbus and go to school there?”
Yes, I grew up and went to school there and started at Ohio State University, and I
completed three years and then the war changed people’s lived dramatically, as you
know, and we had we had a shortage of teachers, but the rule at that time was, if you had
completed three years of college and you could get a principal to hire you, you could
teach school, so that’s what I did. After my third year I went to Port Clinton, Ohio, and
taught high school for a year and then I was supposed to go back and finish, but I went
back, but the urge, the desire to be patriotic again—instead of finishing my senior year I
joined the navy.
1
�Interviewer: “Why did you choose the navy as opposed to another branch of the
service?” 56:00
This is going to sound funny, but it was strictly because I didn’t like the khaki uniforms.
I liked the navy blue.
Interviewer: “You are not the first WAVE to tell us that. That they had better
uniforms.
Is that right?
Interviewer: “So you did that and once you signed up what—where did they send
you for training?”
For the navy, do you mean?
Interviewer: “Yes”
All of us went to New York at the time and we spent—I think it was four months or six
weeks, it was six weeks, in basic training and my major was in physical education, so I
had another three months in New York City and then eventually I ended up in Oakland,
California.
Interviewer: “While you were going through basic training and then more
specialized training, tell us a little bit about what that was like. In basic training,
what do they have the women do?” 56:56
Well, they were trying to get us familiar with navy terms and so forth, and we had to
learn that the floor was the deck and the stairs were ladders and so forth, so we spoke in
navy terms and we were taught to recognize and identify airplanes and ships and so forth.
Just so we could—we didn’t expect to get aboard a ship, and of course we didn’t, but we
knew all the navy lingo and that’s the way they wanted it.
2
�Interviewer: “Did they teach you discipline and all that kind of thing?”
Oh yes, we were under the same rules. I went home for Christmas at one time and we
were snowed in on the train coming back and in the navy they don’t care about a
snowstorm. What happens if you miss your ship? The war might hinge on you making
your ship, so we had to serve what they call “a captain’s mast” and you had to work
cleaning the decks or something of that nature. 57:54 They treated us like the young
men.
Interviewer: “Did they give you a lot of physical training and exercise?”
No, I already had that actually, at the university, but we did go through—they called it PT
and we did some exercises and swimming.
Interviewer: “What year was this when you joined the navy?”
It was in 1943, in 1943 I was still in school at that time, so we covered the summer and I
went in the fall of 1943 and served in 1944 and was discharged at the end of 1945.
Interviewer: ‘What did your physical education background—how did that affect
your assignment? You mentioned you had been majoring in that, so they had you
go to a particular kind of training and you stayed in New York for three or four
months and what were you doing at that time?”
Well, they called it Specialist I Training and I guess it’s what a drill sergeant would do
more or less and when I was a student I was a student company commander and I was in
charge of six sections of forty girls each. 59:05 I recall one day we mustered out in front
to go to breakfast and one—she was a specialist I guess, and she called out the window
that she overslept and I was standing down there and we were all standing at parade rest,
two hundred girls there, and she said, “can you get them to the mess hall?” I called the
3
�company and turned them around and marched them down the street and bleeped them to
the right and to the mess hall, and I was so proud of myself and I was so proud of myself
as a youngster doing that, really.
Interviewer: “Now, were most of the women training about the same age?”
I suppose they were, you had to be twenty-one to go in—well I was, let’s see—you had
to be twenty-one to go in the navy, which is one reason I didn’t go in earlier. I wasn’t
that old yet. 59:54
Interviewer: “Well, the men were going into the navy at seventeen and eighteen.”
But not the women
Interviewer: “Not the women, alright, so basically you’re training to train other
people.”
That’s pretty much the size of it, yeah. The S really stood for shore patrol for the men,
but we ended up being in charge of barracks.
Interviewer: “So, you go out to Oakland, California, now what was there?”
Well, the WAVE barracks were in the heart of town and what we had to do, we were
called “ship’s company” because we didn’t go, but every morning buses would come in,
and several hundred girls would get on the buses and they would be taken out to one of
the navy stations, but “ship’s company”, there were about twenty of us, stayed there and I
arranged recreation for them by buying books for the rec room I guess, and records and I
painted a badminton court and I managed a softball team and things of that nature for the
girls. 0:56
Interviewer: “All right, what do you think was the most interesting aspect of that
job?”
4
�Well, I enjoyed—I took leather craft the year before—see, when I’d gone out there I
couldn’t get in because I was a day late at the university, so I was out there and all I had
was about seventy five dollars and I came from Ohio of course, and didn’t have enough
money to go back home and didn’t know—I said, “don’t panic”, and I had training in
recreation, so I went down to the city recreation department to see if they would hire me
and they said, “well, you’re in luck because we’re just doing Civil Service training now
and you can take the test”, so I took the test the next day, as a matter of fact, and the rule
in Civil Service was that whoever got the top scores had to get the top jobs, so they had to
hire me. There was a woman who had taught at the Golden Gate Recreation Center down
there and she was much better and knew her job and they wanted to keep her too, so they
had to create a job for me. 1:58 I ended up working at playgrounds quite a bit for a year
until I was eligible to go to the university.
Interviewer: “That was after the naval service then?”
No, this was—let’s see, I’m getting mixed up on dates. It was after the naval service, but
before the baseball.
Interviewer: “All right, we were talking about the naval service itself and I asked
what was the most interesting part of that job.”
Well, I use to play a trumpet years ago and I recall one time we were raising the flag on
our post and several officers came out and I practiced raising the reveille in the morning
and took some pictures of that and that was kind of thrilling and exciting too because I
wasn’t a top trumpet player. I was kind of exciting with all the people standing around
saluting and watching the flag go us and here I was struggling with that bugle. 2:59 that
was interesting and then we had a softball team and the navy girls played the coast guard
5
�and marine women’s group and we sang in a chorus and we went out to San Quentin one
time just to sing for the prisoners, so there were recreation type of things you know.
Interviewer: “Did you feel like you were doing something useful for the war effort
or making a contribution?”
Well, I suppose so, I didn’t really think about the war in essence, I just did the job that I
was supposed to do and we were supposed to take care of the women. They trained me
in leather craft during my work in the recreation department there in the city of Oakland,
and I ended up teaching the craft to women in the Golden Gate Community Center. That
was fun because that was strictly afterwards, but I had learned that in the navy and that
was good because that was something they could really gain from. We made wallets and
belts and purses and things like that. 4:02
Interviewer: “So, you had kind of a direct connection between the naval career and
that work in the Civil Service that you did afterward. It all kind of fit together and
they all grew out of the training that you already had in college.”
You’re exactly right, the physical education and the actions there and the recreation
things that I did.
Interviewer: “All right, now we’re going to go back up a little bit, going back again
to being a kid, how did you start playing sports?”
Well, we lived near a playground and it was just about a block away, a city municipal
playground, and every summer when school was out we were at the playground. They
had fifteen softball diamonds there and every summer they had the industrial leagues and
church leagues and other leagues there and I used to go down there all the time and sell
pop for five cents to—carry a bucket with twelve bottles of coke and holler, “ice cold pop
6
�five cents”, and they would stop the ball game, and so I worked in the summer selling
pop to the ball players. 5:00 In the daytime when the diamonds weren’t used , we used
them and we played different, other playgrounds..
Interviewer: “Who is “we”, who were you playing with?”
Well, mostly local boys and girls that I knew and who were my age level. It was from
about the—well, I started doing that when I was in the first or second grade when I
started playing softball, but more in the ninth grade and on into high school.
Interviewer: “There were other girls beside you who were playing?”
Yes and we played other local playgrounds and eventually we played night ball for a shoe
company, J.K. Shoe Company, and we were hired to work at the shoe company because
we played softball, so every summer we did that and we had a pretty fair team.
Interviewer: “By this time you’re getting specifically women’s teams?”
Women’s softball teams 5:52
Interviewer: “So, you’re actually involved in that at that time. Then did you
continue to play when you went on to college?”
Yes, but not so much. You know in those days women were supposed to behave
differently and we were told not to play on a team that was coached by a man. That’s
what they told us at Ohio State, so we—but I loved softball so much that I thought what I
do in the summer is my own business as long as I make my grade in the winter, so I
played for local teams that were coached by men and then we went to state tournaments
and so forth, so we had pretty fair teams.
Interviewer: “Did you go out of state when you were playing softball or did you
stay in the state?”
7
�It was all state wide, but we went to state tournaments up around Elyria and Toledo and
Cleveland, up that way. 6:41
Interviewer: “How did you wind up signing with the All American Girls
Professional Baseball league?”
Well, I was out in California at the University of California Berkley working on my
master’s degree in 1948 and I was playing at the time with some softball players in
Alameda, California and they were quite famous because they were the world champions.
I knew two girls out there that had been picked to be members of the All American
League and they told me about it and they told me that Bill Allington was a scout and
coach and he was trying people out, so I got a hold of him and he tried me out and I was
an outfielder, so he hit a lot of fly balls to see if I could catch and checked my arm out to
see if I could throw and whether I could run and the next thing I knew I was in Peoria,
Illinois. I was sent there to play with the Red Wings.
Interviewer: “What year was that?”
That would be 1948 and that was a little bit difficult for me because, well, I was older
then, I was twenty five and many of the girls played ball when they were fifteen years
old, but it was a little different for me and I sort of suspected that maybe they were going
to make a chaperone out of me because I had the college credits and all of that, but I
played there and enjoyed it very, very much. 8:03
Interviewer: “Did they have you play all outfield positions?”
I was outfield and I could play any of them. The trouble is, the college wasn’t out until
June and they started their spring training in April and by the time I got there they had
finished their spring training and were well into the season, so I’d of had to be a pretty
8
�fair player in order to break into the line-up, so I did a lot of things, I pitched batting
practice, and participated and they taught me different things. The game was different
from softball, so it took me a while to learn, so one time at the end of that first season the
coach said, “you’re going to start tonight. You’re going to play right field and you’re
going to play the whole game”. Oh boy, I thought this was just great, so I played the
game and played well. I made a couple double plays, which I figured in catching the ball
and throwing the runner in off base. I thought, “Now I can show them what I can do”.
This proves, in those days professional ball was the same for the women as it was for the
men and it is a business. 9:08 I didn’t know it, but the next day I was shipped out to
Rockford, and he let me play the game because he knew I was going to be leaving the
next day, so it’s a business, you go wherever they want you.
Interviewer: “All right, when you got to Rockford did you get a chance to play any
more?”
Well, there were two weeks left in the season, so then I went home and worked there and
the next year instead of going back to Rockford they had me on the tour. They were
trying to popularize the league in the south and we played in Georgia, Alabama, Arkansas
and Louisiana, all the way down there for the season. Getting close to the end of the
season my back was hurting me quite a bit, so when I went home I just never went back
to the league. 9:51
Interviewer: “Because of the way you joined the league, coming in in mid-season
and kind of moving around a lot, and maybe also the fact that you were a little bit
older, did they tell you much in the way of what kind of rules you had to follow and
that kind of thing?”
9
�Well, they didn’t because they were well into their training, but I learned from the other
girls everything that I had to know and they had their rules, which we had to follow, as
you well know.
Interviewer: “So, you had to wear the skirts and so forth and all that kind of
thing.”
The nice thing about the league—the fact was they just accept all the girls. If you play
one day, one week, one month, one year or ten years, you’re part of the family more or
less. That is the thing that has been so good because over all these years we’ve all
maintained a relationship with each other and I think that’s a wonderful thing. I think we
did a lot really. 10:50 I was teaching school when Title IX came in and women just
didn’t do things in those days and I was in on a lot of this changing and I think it was
fascinating business. We didn’t know we were pioneers until the movie was made and
the cards were made and we didn’t know this.
Interviewer: “When they got to the point where they were making the movie were
you connected with that or did you participate?”
I was teaching school again and I couldn’t go. You know that’s—that was a good thing,
but it also kept me from doing other things.
Interviewer: “How long did you teach?”
As a whole now, I’ve taught over thirty years. I have a degree from Ohio State and from
the university in Berkeley, California and a doctorate from Arizona State University.
Interviewer: “And did you take the doctorate also in physical education?”
Yes
Interviewer: “And have you taught at the university level as well?”
10
�Yes, it was almost all—I finished my last twenty-five years at Phoenix College, which is
a two-year community college. 11:51
Interviewer: “Did you do coaching while you were there too?”
Yes, we had to coach and that was another thing, we had intramurals and we had sports
day, but women coaches were not paid, we just had to do these things, but we never got
paid, we just had straight teaching jobs. We got paid for teaching and we went through
all of that, we went through all the different sports and then Title IX came along and the
men gave us a lot of static because they thought they were going to lose some money.
That the women were going to get the scholarships and some of the money, so we had all
kinds of wars with the men’s departments. It was just true over all the universities at that
time and I think Title IX was—and thing like our league here being pioneers and all that,
I think they were some of the best things that ever happened for women in sports and to
live in that era was a very interesting thing for me. 12:47
Interviewer: “And you were really in a position to watch those changes.”
Yes, I saw all those, I was department chairman when the money came in and we hired
volleyball players, basketball players and I coached a softball team in college then.
Interviewer: “Let’s go back to the playing days. Tell us a little bit about life with
the traveling teams. How did that work?”
Well, when I was with Peoria, with the Red Wings, we had so many games away from
home and we were assigned by the chaperone, we had roommates in the hotels and we
were given per diem money. When we were at our home base we had a family that we
lived with and I guess maybe we were home about a week at a time and then we would
go off on the different trips, so that was interesting. The second year when I was
11
�traveling in the south and it was kind of rugged. 13:43 They had the two teams, we
traveled on one bus and I remember we had one more player than we had seats, so we
alternated and walked up and down the aisle. When it was time to stop somewhere they
had two rooms in a hotel and we all showered in those two rooms and we were off to a
game every night, but when you’re young you can do a lot of things.
Interviewer: “Because you were a little bit older, did you kind of fall into a little bit
of a chaperone role too?”
No, but after the end of my two years, they had never said this to me, but I kind of
suspected that might have been why they kept me on because I was not playing regularly.
As a matter of fact, I only played about seventeen games in those—if you take both of the
summers, the summers were only two months long because of teaching, and to play
seventeen games in four months was, I guess, all I could hope for, and that’s the reason I
suspected maybe they had another plan for me. 14:42
Interviewer: “Aside from that game toward the end of that first season when you
kind of got in there and played the whole game and made a couple double plays,
were there other games when you were out there playing, that stand out in your
memory?”
Well, I was out there practicing certainly as hard as the rest of them and learning all the
tricks and everything they were doing. I might have been called in for a pinch hitter or
something of that sort, but no, whether you were home or you were on the road, you had
to get there hours before the game started and of course I did the same routines all the
other girls did as though I was going into the game, but most of the games I spent on the
bench.
12
�Interviewer: “All right, who did you have managing you when you were going
around on the tour?”
Schrall, Leo Schrall that was his name, yeah, and we had a good team and there are some
very famous girls that played. 15:42 Now, Twila Shively, and we had—let’s see, who
were some of the others, these manes are—Terry Donahue, who was well known and
Kate Vonderau, who was a catcher. That one game I played before I was sent out, and
the reason I thought I was going to stay—I was playing out in the field and there was a
long low fly that I had to run and reach down to catch and I just saw the runner starting in
from third, so I just heaved it toward the catcher. We’re taught to bounce it in if you’re
coming from center field and one bounce if you’re coming from right field, but I just
heaved it and it got to the catcher on the fly and she tagged the runner coming in, so it
was a double out. I thought, “boy, I got it now”, and the next day I end up in Rockford,
so it’s a business. 16:30
Interviewer: “As you were traveling around, what kind of reception did you get
when you went to these little towns in the south?”
Oh, everybody just loved it and we had big crowds. The biggest crowd I every played
before in the baseball was ten thousand they were giving away—the girls all got a
suitcase and they were giving away an automobile, so when they had specialties and
things like that, the crowds were bigger. Everybody would stand outside the locker room
and wait for the girls to shower and then they would sign autographs, so it was exciting
and you begin to think you have some importance in this world.
Interviewer: “Were there any particular places that you went that kind of stand out
in your memory or do they all just run together?”
13
�No, they probably did at the time, but as I look back sixty years ago, I can’t remember
anything special except that it was just great. Of all the things I’ve done, the college
degrees and the teaching and getting married and having children and all of that, I recall
that the baseball was the thing that I remember the most and enjoyed the most of all the
things I’ve done in my life. 17:44 In eighty-seven years you do a lot of living.
Interviewer: “What is it about is it about the baseball, do you think, that makes it
particularly distinctive and makes it stand out?”
Made it stand out?
Interviewer: “Yes”
Probably—we played softball on the playground and I just knew since I was a kid—I
remember I use to play in the second grade, at recess we would play and at a high school
reunion one time a man said to me, “when you were in the second grade everyone wanted
you on their team”, because not too many girls played, just the boys, and they knew that I
could play some, so they enjoyed that and I enjoyed that also. I just always played
softball and we had some quite good teams in softball, we really did.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the “A League of Their Own” movie? What
was your impression of it?” 18:41
Well, I thought it was very good. Of course, it was an entertainment feature of course,
the parts with Tom Hanks and some of the other things. I don’t remember any girl that I
knew that had a husband who was killed in the war or anything of that sort because they
were still pretty young and there were not very many girls that had mates or anything at
that time, but you just get involved, you don’t have time to do anything else. It was fun
to go on the road because you would get up and have breakfast and you would go to a
14
�movie every afternoon or you would go shopping and then there would be practice and
then there would be the ball game. When you were home you had more things that you
could do and it just became like a sorority. We’re all sisters in the same thing, but we all
admired it. The pitchers did well, they usually made about a hundred and five dollars and
I made fifty-four dollars a week and that was my best salary, but that’s pretty good for
sitting on a bench. 19:47
Interviewer: “Do you think you changed much or grew much because of that
experience? Did that add something to your life or was it just a really good
experience?”
Well, I think so, it enlarged my field of acquaintances and you become quite close
because you’re definitely into it in depth. You don’t just play around like amateur ball.
Your money depended on it and you were competitive in other words and you wanted to
play. In softball, as amateurs, we use to play men’s teams and we got a kick out of trying
to beat the men’s teams, but in baseball you just wanted to make the team and play.
They had more players and of course they couldn’t put them all in and they had several
pitchers just like they have in ball today, so I enjoyed that. As a matter of fact, when I
married my husband was a professional ball player and he AAA ball for the Chicago
Cubs, so I continued liking baseball. 20:51
Interviewer: “As you were going through your career teaching and so forth after
you were out of the league, did you tell people that you played professional ball?”
No I didn’t, I just got busy teaching school and doing the things I had to do teaching
school because it was an era of my like that was over with just as the navy was, just as
the college was, and so forth. Actually it was the making of the movie that brought us all
15
�back to life again really. Before that we—it was it and it was over and it was done and
when I read through a lot of the biographies of the girls, they got different jobs, went on
doing their other jobs and the movie came out and all of a sudden we became pioneers.
Interviewer: “But you didn’t see yourselves as pioneers when you were doing it?”
Oh, no not at all, and in fact for the twenty-five years I was teaching after that until I
found out they had reunions every year and I started coming back. I didn’t know any
more about it, so I think that was a good thing, it makes you feel like you are part of a
sorority, part of a group and it was the relationships between the players, team work.
22:00
Interviewer: “That’s something that comes up very consistently when we talk to
people. It’s a hard thing to get people to talk about individuals sometimes because
everybody is the group.”
We pretty much liked everybody and everybody liked each other and we cooperated in
the things that we did and had a good time. Faye Dancer was on our team and she was
well known as liking life, but we didn’t do some of the things—well, you know a lot of
times they would do what—Faye liked to put Limburger cheese on the doorknobs so you
couldn’t turn the door and go in and playing pranks, but kids do that. Between fifteen
and twenty-five you’re still a kid and you’re not under your parents’ authority, so you do
what you have fun with. 22:49
Interviewer: “So, what have I left out? You have done a very good job and I
anticipated multiple questions in the process, so you were very helpful.
Thank you, thank you, I didn’t want to say too much and like I say, I wasn’t one of the
top players, but I was lucky to have lasted as long as I did and I had other conflicts with
16
�school and all of that, but over the years I think I accomplished more things than many
women did. That wasn’t our thing, women were supposed to stay home and cook and I
don’t like to cook. 23:00
17
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_EWeiss
Title
A name given to the resource
Weiss, Elma (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Weiss, Elma
Description
An account of the resource
Elma Weiss was born in Columbus, Ohio in 1923. She attended Ohio State University and then enlisted in the Navy in 1943. She served in Oakland, California during the war and subsequently attended the University of California and was playing in a softball league in the area when she was recruited for the All American Girls Professional Baseball League. She played for parts of two seasons with the Peoria Redwings and Rockford Peaches, including a barnstorming tour of the south, and was a reserve outfielder. After her time in the league, she continued her education, received a doctorate and was a Professor of Physical Education at Phoenix College in Arizona.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87d150df23d71e970e32f6030510fc96.m4v
802089bdaa466bc342b6de51a77b992d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a99fe20f27f3ae797fc06c1ea9a723c5.pdf
e6a8ae81ecf1ed27f463e1803d7458bc
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Dolly Nemic Konwinski
Length of Interview: (01:23:44)
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like? Where did you grow up?
What was your neighborhood like and your family?”
It was a typical, typical working class neighborhood. The neighborhood consisted of
Bohemians and Polish and Jewish and it was the most wonderful—growing up in this
neighborhood was exceptionally fun as I can remember and to go to school with this
group and to grow up with, I should say, the boys because that was my main team mates.
We went to grammar school together, to kindergarten and elementary and high school.
Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living?”
Well, in the depression he was with the WPA, I forget what that stands for.
Interviewer: “It was Roosevelt’s way of getting people to work.”
Right, my mother was a stay at home mother of course—back then all moms stayed home
and cooked, washed, etc. My dad played softball with a neighborhood group and in
Chicago, I guess you get the picture—in the neighborhood where there’s a tavern on
every other corner. Well, my dad would stop and have a little refreshment on his way
home and that’s the group he played horseshoes with and played softball with and not
having a boy, I was the tag along. (02:20) I wouldn’t let my dad out of the house, even
if he was going to the corner store for some “Halva”, which is a Jewish candy by the way.
I would sit by the door so, he had to take me to the softball games, which I was a “gofer”
and some of the men, if they were true ball players, they chased their own shag balls, but
since I was there, I was the “gofer”, to go for the ball. They would say, “Dolly get this”
and of course they couldn’t have picked a better person than me because I wanted this
badly. I wanted to be on the ball field since I can remember.
Interviewer: “Why? What was your motivation? I know your back to your early
childhood, but what was it about baseball that appealed to you as a young kid?”
(03:15) You know, that’s really a hard question, but my love for my father, I wanted to
be just like him and I would do things just like my dad and I just took to the sport. I
didn’t like dolls—I have a sister and she had the most beautiful dolls in the neighborhood
and I don’t know where they got the money to buy these, maybe they went down to the
relief station and picked them up, but she had these beautiful dolls and I had the best bat
and ball in the neighborhood. (03:56) Of course doing that, the boys all loved me too,
but I was good—I was good when I was a kid.
Interviewer: “How old were you when you actually started playing baseball?”
1
�I was probably seven or eight.
Interviewer: “Whom did you play with?”
I played with the boys in the neighborhood.
Interviewer: “Where?”
Well, if you can close your eyes and picture a neighborhood in Chicago and you will find
that the streets were narrow and they held a car, if you were lucky enough to have one
parked there. We use to play softball there and we used the manhole cover and the drains
as first and the manhole cover as second and so on, and then we took chalk and drew
home plate in the street. (04:53) When we started, we wanted to play baseball and
Kuppenheimer Clothes had a factory just a half a block away and in back of the factory
was a field, a large field and that’s where me and the boys went to play ball.
Interviewer: “Were you the only girl?”
I was the only girl.
Interviewer: “Did other kids come out to watch you play?” (05:22)
No, they played. I remember that movie “Sand lot” and I loved that movie because it’s
what I did when I was a kid. We went out there and we played “round robin”, you hit,
you fielded, you pitched, you were a Cub fan or a Sox fan and you took their names, you
took Stan Hack, you took Andy Pafko, but I was a Sox fan and I was in love with Luke
Appling so, I played short stop and I always told—you call me Luke—I wanta be Luke
Appling, I want to play professional baseball just like Luke Appling and not realizing
what was going to happen in the distant future. (06:13)
Interviewer: “That was fantasy because you couldn’t play even if you—we know
what actually happened later, but as a child at that time playing--fantasizing about
playing professional baseball, there were no women in baseball at that time”.
You know the old saying “Girls can’t play baseball”, well I did and I was a good player.
I wasn’t the best, I wasn’t a home run hitter, but I always was picked first if I wasn’t the
captain. Maybe it was because of that bat and ball I had and the boys liked it. I
remember the bat. We played with cracked, cracked at the handle and couldn’t afford to
go out and get a new bat—didn’t have aluminum bats way back then so, my dad took his
manual screw driver and he put a hole through there and put in a screw and then he taped
it up. (07:19)
He didn’t use the shiny black tape we have today, he used the tape that would get your
hands black, but he taped that bat up and it was as good as new and back to the ball
fields. (07:34)
2
�Of course, we only played now in the summer—wintertime, there was time for skating
and tobogganing and sledding. I think every kid in Chicago had a sled—so our summers
were—and then I had a paper route. I had a Sun Times paper route. The first girl to have
a paper route—a large one too. My sister would help me—please El, please El, I got a
ball game, can you help me deliver these papers? I have to do homework and then I
would have to run out—“They need me, they need me, my sister would say “Ok, ok”, she
is two years younger so—you know when you’re eight and nine and eight and seven. I
would say “Please El?”(08:25)
It was the same with doing dishes when we were young. That was out job—we had to
do the dishes, “Oh mama do I have to do the dishes?” “You have to do the dishes”.
Well, I finally caught on and I would say to my sister, “Will you wipe tonight?” One
night we would wash and one night we would do the wiping, but the dishwasher always
got finished first so, I would say, “El, El, let me wash dishes tonight”, and she would say,
“Well, you washed last night”, and I would say, “I want to get out of here, please, please,
I got a ball game”, because the boys would be sitting on the fence waiting for me. 9:01
“Oh Dolly, oh Dolly, when you were a kid back then that’s what they would yell. Then
when it would come to the pots and pans, I would say, “Oh mama, oh mama, can you do
this pot? It’s really hard and the boys are waiting”. I had a wonderful childhood. I had a
wonderful—when my dad got home from work—we played with a sixteen inch softball
in Chicago and if you hit it enough times it gets like mooch. We were—you know, a
small hand could squeeze it and the ball, when it was hit it would just kind of tumble
around. (09:46)
“Daddy, daddy, I need a new ball”. We had enough money for food, we were never
without food on our table and there he would come home under his arm, with his lunch
basket, would be a ball. Now, I don’t know where he got that ball—we’ll just leave it at
that. (10:12)
Interviewer: “You got through high school and graduated from high school?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Ok, when did you first hear about the opportunity to play baseball?”
One morning after church, my dad stopped at the bakery and we always had bagels and
Kaiser rolls, he stopped at the Jewish market and they were the best in the whole world. I
wish I could go back there today and pick up a dozen. He came home and after coffee he
was reading the paper and he said to me, “Dolly”, he said, “did you know that girls play
baseball?” I said, “Girls don’t play baseball”, he said, “There’s an All American girls
baseball league that’s having tryouts and it’s going to be right in the neighborhood at one
our park districts”. (11:18)
That’s where I played a lot of my sports, at the park—volleyball and whatever girls
played over there, whatever they would let us play. He said, “It’s going to be right down
the street and I want you to go”, and I said, “Oh dad, I’m not”—he said, “You’re a good
ball player Dolly, I want you to go.” Well, the glove I had was—if you go down to the
hall of fame one day, you’ll see the kind of gloves we had. It was probably from the five
3
�and ten cent store, but I had this glove and he said, “I want you to go down there”. “Ok,
I’ll go down”. (12:03)
I never saw so many girls with baseball gloves in my life.
Interviewer: “Now this is a field you had already played in so, you knew where it
was?”
Right down the street.
Interviewer: “Right down the street”.
In the park district.
Interviewer: “What I’m really impressed with is your father really encouraged you
to do this”. (12:22)
He did, and of course my mother, you know, my mother didn’t really know first from
short, but let me tell you one story. One day I said to my mother, “Mom, does it take
longer to get from first to second or second to third?” and she said to me, “Now Dolly,
that was just the most stupid thing you could ask me”, I was laid back and I said, “Well,
what do you mean?” and she said, “Well, it takes longer to get from second to third”, and
I laughed, “What do you mean mom?” She said, “Well, there’s a short stop in-between”.
13:10 I love to tell this story and I love to tell it in front of her because I don’t know
where she got that information, maybe my father whispered it in her ear, but mama didn’t
know too much about sports.
Interviewer: “What did she think about this idea of you going to try out for this
baseball thing?”
Like I say, she didn’t—she knew I went out to play ball so, it was just another going out
in the afternoon and having fun with the boys, but my father had told me “it’s girls
baseball”. When I got there--Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about the trip over, what were you thinking about
while you were walking over?” (13:56)
Walking is right, I was fifteen—walking over there and thinking to myself, “You know,
will I be able to catch the ball? Are they going to throw really hard to me? Are there
going to be ladies there throwing? What is this all about?” (14:21)
It was about—I would say about three blocks from the house, maybe four and you know
you skip down there and you think and you smile—baseball, baseball, organized. Well,
when I got there to that gym, I had to sign in and there were a lot of men and there were a
lot of women, young girls, in fact, we weren’t women yet, we were fifteen and sixteen
years old. (14:52)
I walked in there and my eyes must have been almost popping out of my head. I could
not believe what I was seeing. Well, you know, grab a friend and here’s a ball and start
4
�throwing and the ball was—I believe the ball was eleven inches. It had come down from
the twelve inch that the league started with and so, we started playing catch and my name
is Dolly—well’ my name is Mary Lou and my name is Ginger and where do you live?
(15:29)
Well, I live way on the south side and what school do you go to? I go to Tillman, and I
went to Farragut, the conversation was just fun and women throwing hard to me, I did not
have to look for a boy to throw the ball to me like I’m use to catching. It went on, we
played catch and of course it was in a gym and so the men, who were coaches, started
hitting ground balls to us, we were in line and we each took our turn fielding the ball and
throwing the ball and we couldn’t hit, but we could slide—slide on a gym floor? Ouch.
(16:18)
It wasn’t strawberries, it was floor burns.
Interviewer: “What were you wearing?”
I was probably wearing a pair of pants and to this day, and I just bought them last year, I
never owned a pair of jeans. It was always a pair of girl’s slacks, some kind of a shirt, I
don’t remember.
Interviewer: “I was just trying to think. It wasn’t a uniform or anything?”
No, I was what everybody had. They had their jeans on and tennis shoes. I don’t know if
I had tennis shoes or if we could afford tennis shoes.
Interviewer: “What year was this?” (17:01)
This was in 1947.
Interviewer: “Ok, so the war was already over with?”
Right, what they were trying to do is get four teams in Chicago, like a farm system,
which the All Americans never had. They were trying to form the farm system with the
local gals and then we lined up and they told us a little bit about the league and what they
were trying to do—get four teams—there would be two south side teams, two north end
teams, and we would play each other. (17:41)
I must have impressed the coaches because they called my name and they came up to me
and they said, “Does your parents know about this?” I said, “Yes, my dad sent me down
here”, and they said, “Dolly, you’re a good ball player”, no Joe DiMaggio, no Luke
Appling, and I said, “Thank you”, and he said, “Would you be interested in playing on
one of the Chicago teams?” I said, “Oh, yes”. Well, they had some literature, some notes
that I had to take home and show my mom and dad. (18:31)
Interviewer: “Did you have a job at this time?”
5
�Just my paper route, just my paper route, and boy when I would get those penny and
nickel tips—you know when you’re nine years old or ten years old, and I had that job
right into high school.
Interviewer: “What were your options? You had a fairly decent relationship with
your father and with your mother, what did you talk about? Obviously professional
baseball was not in the discussions about what you were going to do with your life
before this happened”. (19:03)
Right, right, it—well, I ran home, I mean I ran, I sprinted, I could have beat Owens that
day. I ran upstairs and I said, “Oh daddy, daddy, daddy”, and he said, “What happened,
what happened?” I said, “Daddy, they want me to play, they want me to play”, and he
said, “I knew, I knew it” so, I said, “Mama, can I play ball? Can I play ball?” “Ask your
father, ask your father”, and I said, “Daddy said yes, daddy said yes” so, I brought the
details home and made these friends, Mary Lou Studnicka you know, Ann O’Dowd, we
were picked for the Southside team (19:56) and my other friends, Ginger and Champ
and some of the gals on the North side, Joan Sindelar, they made the North side team and
so, we were going to be playing against each other. (20:11)
Interviewer: “Now, you were getting paid, right?”
Well, no pay, we got our streetcar fare and I think we got fifty cents and that would have
been a lot of money because streetcar fare was a nickel and that would have been ten
cents round trip and that would leave us fifteen cents for a hamburger and a malt. (20:40)
That was the extent of it, just get on—maybe it was a little less, but fifty cents sticks in—
and that was so much money when I think of those nickel tips. We were paid that and I
was still active in the park districts and we were playing volleyball and we had a good
volleyball team. I love that sport to this day. As a kid I loved to go out there and watch
and my grand kids play, but we were playing in the park district tournament and we were
playing for the championship and we won, we won. (21:35)
We were just so happy, so happy and before they gave the medals out, that’s what you
could win, a nice medal, I was called in the office and the lady who was in charge, the
director of this, she said to me, “Dolly, do you play baseball?” And I said, “Oh ya, I do
play”, and she said, “Do you get paid?” I said, “No, I get money for the streetcar to go
there”< and she said, “Well, we heard you got paid and we have to disqualify your team”,
and I said, “You mean we don’t win? Does that mean we don’t win?” She said, “That
means you don’t win”. (22:27)
Well, our coach, I’ll tell ya, I can feel the pain right now—how could they do this to me
for streetcar fare? So, that’s another thing you know, when you’re fourteen or fifteen and
that—it just—so, I quit playing volleyball and I just played in adult leagues when I got
older. I said, “I’ll show them, just don’t call me grandma” but, I played since and then I
stuck to my baseball—still going to school—still in high school now, not being able to
play sports—the only thing girls could do in high school—we had a swimming team, but
they couldn’t be on the swimming team, but they could be divers. (23:28)
We played, of course we played basketball and taking you back a long time ago, we
played half court and six on a team and of course we played volleyball so, I got my thrill
6
�of playing volleyball in high school, loved it, had more fun and played ball with the boys,
I could practice, they wanted me out there to practice so bad, but when they had a game it
was “See you tomorrow Dolly”. (24:04)
Interviewer: “So, what were your options when you got out of high school? What
were you going work as? Were you going to try to get a job as a nurse or what?”
No, this is the most fun, playing with the boys in the field. I played with a young boy, his
name is Joe Schoenberg, how that stick out in my mind I don’t know, but we had a
Mages Sporting Goods store, Morey Mages and his brothers, I don’t remember his
brothers, names, but Joe lived in the apartment building on the first level and Morey
Mages lived above him. (24:48)
We would talk and he said, “Oh Morey, he owns the sporting goods store” and I don’t
know what made me do this, one day after we played ball he said, “Oh, Morey always
gets home about five thirty from the store” so, the wheels are turning in Dolly’s head so, I
went to the corner where Joe and Mr. Mages lived, and he came by one day and I said,
“Mr. Mages?” and he said, “Hello, how are ya?” I said, “Fine, I play ball with Joe
Schoenberg”, and he said, “Well, that’s nice”, and I said, “We play at Kuppenheimer
Field” and he said, “Oh, that’s nice” and I said, “You know I’m playing ball, baseball
with a girls organized team” , and he said, “Well, isn’t that nice?” (25:47)
I said, “Mr. Mages, I need a job, can I get a job (very blunt—no tact) at your store?” and
I think he was taken back and he said, “We don’t have any ladies in sales, we just have
them in the office part”, and I said, “That would be ok, that would be ok, can you use
me?” And he said, “I’ll tell ya, come by after school tomorrow or Monday (this was on a
Friday) and come see me”, “Wow”, I ran home and told my mom that I talked to Mr.
Mages. (26:45)
A long time ago we called our mother and father—we either called her mother or him
father or mama and daddy, because when dad would go out he would say, “You stay
home with mama”, or vice versa. I said, “Mama, mama, Mr. Mages said I could come
talk to him about a job”. She said, “Doing what?” I said, “I don’t know, just working”
and she said, “Well how much?” and I said, “I don’t know, just working” so, I couldn’t
wait until I got home from school, got my paper route done and hopped the streetcar
because Mages was on North Avenue and Crawford, it was just off Crawford, west of
Crawford and I got dressed up as nice as I could look and I took the streetcar out there.
(27:41)
I was so excited my heart was just beating and I got to the store and asked one of the
sales people and they said he was in his office and to go to his office. So, he said, “Well,
hi Dolly” and I said, “Hi Mr. Mages”, and he said, “Well, have you ever sold anything,
do you have any experience?” I said, “No, just playing ball” and he said, “Well, how
would you like to try to be in the shoe department and sell bowling shoes, ice skates and
ski boots?” I thought and said, “Sure, I would like to try, I’d love to”, and I was the first
saleswoman for Mages Sporting Goods. (28:38)
I loved my job, I loved my job and so, after I graduated and was playing ball, playing
ball in the summer and he knew that. I started going to college and I would go right to
work after that and then of course the All Americans came to be where—we graduated in
7
�1949 and we went on a barnstorming tour and I worked when I could and I thought,
(29:14)
“This isn’t fair, maybe there’s somebody who wants the job at Mages” so, I stuck to
baseball where I made some money and graduated high school, left my paper route, my
customers were very sad too because they got their tips worth when they gave me that
five cents and ten cents, their paper was at their door every night and early on Sunday
morning. I did that before church. (29:51)
Interviewer: “Let’s go back now to—you’ve kind of wrapped up your job and your
paper route and all, but how did you find out about the professional All American
Women’s League? How did you find out about that?”
Well, because of that tryout, which was held by the All American, and I was picked for
one of the four teams, which made me a part of the All American.
Interviewer: “You’re not being paid though, you said”.
We weren’t, but then at the end of 1948, after our season, the four teams were brought
together in a meeting and Len Zintack, who was from Chicago and the director of the
four teams, (30:38) asked who would be interested in going on a barn storming tour of
the United States to introduce the game to the south and the east coast so, Chicago had
two teams, they had the Springfield Sallies and the Chicago Colleens, which in 1948 did
not make it. Chicago had the Cubs and the Sox and the Bloomer Girls and some very
good softball teams and our team just couldn’t bring the crowds in. (31:14)
Springfield had the same problem. They had a good minor league team and they had
some good softball teams. So, they took the Colleens and the Sallies and they distributed
those women to the Peaches and Chicks and the teams in the All Americans, and we
became the women and girls who said “yes” they would go on a tour and we became the
Sallies and the Colleens and we traveled together on one bus touring. We started in
Oklahoma City, toured the south, New Orleans, Pensacola—(31:59)
Interviewer: “Playing against each other?”
Yes, against each other. Maybe on day I was a Colleen and one day I was a Sally, but it
didn’t make any difference, people were out to see the two teams play. We were heavily
advertised and we had wonderful crowds, we had wonderful crowds and they accepted
us. There was no one saying that girls can’t play baseball because we showed them a
very good brand of baseball. (32:29)
Interviewer: “What were you wearing?”
We were wearing the uniforms of the All Americans, the ones the Colleens and Sally’s
had.
Interviewer: “What did it look like?”
8
�It was like the pictures you see today, the uniform of the All American Girls Professional
Baseball League.
Interviewer: “You had a baseball cap and a top, but then there was a skirt.”
The—Mrs. Wrigley designed those uniforms. She wanted every one of the women to
look like ladies and the men, the manager, play like men, and that’s what we wore. It
was a skirted uniform with shorts underneath and the stockings up to our calf. 33:14
Interviewer: “How did you feel about this? This is a different time, now you can
walk around in a skirt and you can have it as short or as long as you want, there is
no difference, but in those days women didn’t wear skirts like that.”
No we didn’t and if you find a picture of the first four women who played ball, you will
notice their skirts are almost to their knees, which was still—you know, if you’re sliding
and your skirts coming up and you’re going see the shorts, but that’s all you’re going to
see. Well, each year the gals took a hem up, which was ok, the chaperones never said
anything and I don’t think anyone was reprimanded for taking a hem up and making the
skirt a little shorter. (34:08)
Interviewer: “The reason is because of the running and the—?”
Probably the running, and people say, “Well how did you ever slide or play in those
skirts?” And this was the easiest thing to do because we had shorts on and like so many
high school and college teams have today, we had a little skirt that covered that, which
made it a little more feminine looking. The charm school of course-Interviewer: “You had to go through the charm school?”
That was in the beginning of the league and I didn’t join the league until, you know, 1949
or 1948 so, I was not into make-up, but the chaperones made sure that when you were out
in public, you looked like a lady in al phases at all times. (35:08)
Interviewer: “You did this barnstorming tour, which was playing basically against
the same teams that you were playing with. When did that shift into being part of
the league that played other cities and other towns?”
After the 1949 barnstorming tour, which ended in—I believe it ended in August,
sometime in August, we were all allocated to teams in the All American League. So, my
friend Delores Muir, who just passed away two weeks ago, we were sent to the South
Bend Blue Sox. Dave Bancroft accepted us and I don’t think I played a game because it
was about two weeks. I think I was there long enough for a 1949 team picture and Grand
Rapids needed an infielder and South Bend needed a pitcher so, I was traded. (36:13)
I joined the Grand Rapids Chicks in 1949. Most of the gals did the exact—they were
sent to South Band and Fort Wayne and Peoria.
9
�Interviewer: “What was your first impression of Grand Rapids when you came
here?”
This is kind of a small city compared to Chicago. I said to somebody, “I would like to go
downtown, how long is it going to take me?” And they said, “Oh, five or ten minutes”. I
lived in Madison Square and I said, “Five or ten minutes, what?” And they said, “The
bus will get you down there”, and that reminds me—my mother came to visit and she
said she wanted to go downtown. Well, I had a game to get ready for so I said, “Ok
mama, you’re going to go to Hall St. and the fire department is on the corner of Madison
and the bus will stop and he’ll take you downtown. (37:16)
Now, notice the number of the bus and where you got off and that’s where you’ll get on”
and she said, “Ok, no problem”. Well, I get a phone call and the first thing she asked the
bus driver was she wants to go down to the loop and he said, “You must be from
Chicago?” Well, she wanted to go downtown and she got off at the wrong stop and she
went into the fire department, which was just down the street, but she didn’t recognize
anything and they told her where she wanted to go. (37:52)
That’s just kind of a side story, but I love Grand Rapids, I love Grand Rapids and it was
so fun to play here and the people I stayed with, they treated us like their daughters. I
stayed on Horton Street, right off Cottage Grove and these people, like I say, we paid
them our rent, I don’t remember what it was a month, not much, but they always told us
the refrigerator is always open. On our day off they would say, “Dolly, would you like to
have dinner with us tonight?” (38:38)
We were so a part of their family and so welcomed here that I’m sure the minor league
baseball teams that we have today stay with these families and are treated like their sons
and you don’t forget.
Interviewer: “Lets go back to—you signed up originally with this one team and you
were traded to the Grand Rapids Chicks. You’re getting paid now and there’s a
contract, give us some idea what that was about. You had to sign a contract for
what. What period of time and how much were you paid?” (39:17)
Well, first of all when I agreed to go on that barnstorming tour, my mother and dad had to
go downtown to the Wrigley Building and sign a contract because I was just sixteen. So,
off on the El we went to the Wrigley Building. They gave their permission and when I
got to South Bend or Grand Rapids, I had signed a contract on my own, I was eighteen
and I made sixty-five dollars a week and that was really big money. (40:00)
I didn’t even make that at Mages Sporting Goods. When I was on the tour, going back
to the tour in 1949, I want to say we made twenty-five dollars a week, but of course
everything was paid for, our hotel, of course the bus, we didn’t have to worry about—we
did have to buy our own meals, but I had enough money that when I left I said to my
mother, “I’m going to send you some money home and I want you to go buy yourself
some stockings or a slip, I want you to treat yourself to something, treat yourself and do
not put this money away, treat yourself, I’m ok”. (40:45)
When I got home, going back now to 1949, when I got home I said, “What did you buy
mama? What did you buy? Did you buy yourself some new shoes or stocking or a slip
or a dress?” She said, “No, I saved the money for you”, and I said, “Mother, why did you
10
�do this? I sent the money for you to treat yourself”, and she said, “I knew you would
need it for school” and so, “Ok, I got money”. I don’t remember what I had, two hundred
dollars or something like that in savings so, I went to my dad and I said, “Daddy can I
buy a car?” He said, “What are you going to use a car for?” I said, “I don’t know, can I
buy a car?” (41:51)
He said, “We’ll see”. Well, he and my uncle, my uncle Rudy, go out looking for a
car—now, I haven’t graduated yet from high school in 1949 so, one day I come home
from school—take the streetcar—came home from school and he said, “I got a surprise
for you”, and I said, “We’re going to get a car, we’re going to get a car?” and he said,
“Come on outside”. I almost cried, I mean I almost cried because here was this 1936
Plymouth four door—here’s your car, and I don’t know if people go back and log into old
cars, but they have the back door—the front door opened this way and the back door
opened this way. Well, I really didn’t want a four door gray car, but what could I say—
he would probably say, “Well, I’ll take it back”. Well Ok, I have a car and the next day I
said, “Daddy can I take my car to school?” (43:08)
Well, he jumped out of his chair and he said, “Are you crazy? Are you crazy? Nobody
drives a car to school, you take the streetcar”. So, there I am ten cents on the streetcar
and I have this 1936 Plymouth sitting in front of my house, but that’s the way it was back
then. If you see the schoolyards today, there are not many that don’t drive. It was fun to
do this, it was fun to do this and in high school I was about to graduate and my class
honored me with the most likely to succeed and in my log, Frigate, you know, the ship—
we had the log and in there it said that I wanted to be a professional baseball player, long
before the dream came true, and being outstanding athlete in my class, which made me
proud. (44:25)
I also was in the concert band and concert orchestra—I played the trombone. I had
wonderful, wonderful years in high school and all through school. Now I’m a
professional baseball player and when we have our reunions, I take the log with me and I
say, “Ok you guys, how many else lived up to what they put in the log?”
Interviewer: “Tell us about your experience with the Grand Rapids Chicks. Do you
remember your first game with them?”
Oh yes, the first game was Racine, Wisconsin and I was put right into the lineup and the
first two times at bat, I got hits and I will never forget that. (45:09)
Since that first game it became a little bit more difficult to get a hit because they knew I
couldn’t hit a curve ball and all those wonderful pitchers we had who threw fast ball with
a hop on it, they had equally wonderful curveballs. All they had to do was throw that to
me, but we played at South Field, the Grand Rapids Chicks played, and of course South
Field was a football field before they made it a baseball field. Of course we had a short
right field and with the fast balls, I could make line drives to right field—I was a good
hitter to right—but of course they knew I wasn’t that speed demon that a long time ago I
was and they would throw me out at first. (46:12)
Well, there went my batting average so, I was good field no hit, but I remember those
first two hits in Racine , Wisconsin.
Interviewer: “What was your position with the Grand Rapids Chicks?”
11
�I played third base, but at times I played second base, when our pitcher Zig would be on
the mound. I think because I was a good infielder and I had played second at one time, I
could make the double play very easy—it wasn’t difficult for me to do that—I started out
as a shortstop back in the schoolyard days, you know, Luke Appling.
Interviewer: “Professionally though, you were a third baseman?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Who were some of the teams you were playing at that time?”
We played of course, the “Rockford Peaches”, “South Bend Blue Sox”, “Peoria Red
Wings”, “Fort Wayne Daisies”, “Racine Belles”, “Kenosha Comets”, “Muskegon
Lassies”, when the league started to slow down and attendance—Battle Creek bought the
“Belles” so, we had the “Battle Creek Belles”, Muskegon slowed down so, Kalamazoo,
Michigan bought the “Lassies” and we had the “Kalamazoo Lassies”. 47:37
Interviewer: “What was a season like? The first season you played with them?
Was it a lot of traveling; was it a lot of home games? What was the actual season
like?”
I think we were split—home and away games. We played seven days a week, double
headers on holidays and Sundays and there were a lot of rain dances. We looked forward
to rain when we didn’t have a day off for a long time, but occasionally we had a day off.
Usually if we were traveling we’d have a night game and travel in the morning either to
South Bend—wouldn’t make the long trip to Peoria, we would stop at South Bend or Fort
Wayne or Rockford before going on to the longer miles. (48:35)
Interviewer: “What were these road trips like? I that when you’re traveling a lot
and then you have to play a game and then you’re traveling some more, but you’re
young of course, you’re very young, but what were these road trips like for you?
Did you like them? Were they tiring? Were they fun?”
You learn to sleep on the bus. We traveled on the Division Avenue bus line, which was a
step above a school bus, the seats were more comfortable, and so, you could take a nap.
They were fun, you would sit with a friend and chat and sometimes we would sing.
Sunday morning Alma Ziegler give her sermons so, we had a touch of religion in there
one way or another. (49:37)
Interviewer: “This is the baseball playing nun you were talking about?”
No, this was Alma Ziegler, Gabby Ziegler who played for the Grand Rapids Chicks. I
never played with our former nun. I did play with Tony Palermo, his sister Toni Marie
Palermo, she’s still in the convent, and when we have reunions today, Saturday night she
gets on the podium and reminds everybody that Sunday is tomorrow morning and “Do
you have your wakeup call in there? (50:15)
If you don’t go to church you know we’ll pray hard for you.” So, we do have a nun
still in the convent. Alice Harnet was a nun—we had three nuns—we have three
12
�physicians—three doctor. Mary Roundtree, who was a catcher for the Grand Rapids
Chicks sometime ago, just passed away in Miami and she was a surgeon, a very, very
outstanding doctor and Audrey Wagner played for, oh gosh, I don’t want to get this
wrong, I believe the Kenosha Comets and she was a doctoring California and she flew
her own plane and she was going to a medical convention and crashed. So, we lost not
only lost one of the outstanding outfielders and hitters and outstanding physicians, but we
lost Audrey too. (51:26)
Interviewer: “These road trips to other towns, had you traveled—I know you were
from Chicago and Chicago of course is a big city with a lot of different types of
people and different things around you—groups and what not. How different was it
when you went to all these other towns? Was there a sense of I’m in a new town
here, I’m from a big city and this is a small town, what were your reactions to these
other areas and places?”
Of course the towns were all the size of Grand Rapids so we enjoyed it. We stayed in
very nice hotels, we were given three dollars a day meal money so, we always had that
fifty-nine cent breakfast. If there was a good movie and we didn’t have to play until
evening, we took in the first feature. We saved our two and a half dollars for an evening
meal and sometimes that would only cost us a dollar and a half so we saved a dollar.
(52:31)
The towns were lovely, the fans of course were anti-Chicks, but they only treated us that
way when we were at the ball field, you know boo, boo, boo and what have you.
Cheered hard for their teams, Fort Wayne was noted—they had a tailor in Fort Wayne
and of course we had to wear skirts, and it seemed like every team visited this tailor to
have their skirts made. (53:03)
We would pick the material up and he would measure us up and then on our next trip
back, we would pick-up our skirts and you could tell everyone who had their skirts made
by him, they were very tailored. I think I wore them when I was married. I mean the
herringbones and the wool skirts so; I remember that about Fort Wayne. Fort Wayne also
had a sporting goods store that would carry spikes our sizes. Rawlings made the spikes
and they would carry a size four or a size five, specially made for the women. Another
city that’s well known is, I believe, Racine that had the Jockey--Jockey Cooper and they
made the men’s underwear. Well, at one time they would turn their factory over for a
short period and they would make Jockey underwear for the women, of course a whole
different pattern in the front, but we would always order out undies from Jockey so, those
are two towns. (54:34)
Interviewer: “What ever happened to your—the place you worked for, the sports
place you worked for in Chicago?”
Mages? You know, I believe Mages sold his stores when he retired.
Interviewer: “I mean when you became a baseball player and they were actually
paying you to be a professional baseball player did you ever go back there?”
13
�I did, I did and I talked to all my friends there and they kept saying, “You’re playing
baseball now and I’d have some pictures to show them and they were quite proud and I
said, “Now you catch our games if you go to Kenosha, which is a short drive”, That’s
where my mom and dad would catch our games, up in Kenosha. “It’s a short drive—
come see us and call me and let me know if you’re coming and I’ll get you tickets”, so,
they were quite proud that I made a stepping stone to something I loved. (55:37)
Interviewer: “How did your dad react to that?”
Oh, my dad was so proud. He would tell everybody, my Dolly is playing baseball,
softball, my Dolly is playing baseball and we’re going to see her next weekend. They
had a car—I don’t know what happened to my 1936 Plymouth, I guess when I left for
Grand Rapids, I didn’t take that car. He probably sold it, which was good and I don’t
remember back then, but I know I didn’t have my gray Plymouth anymore. (56:17)
People at Mages were quite proud of me and I’d always ask them, “Do you miss me in
the shoe department?” When I’d talk to people, especially when I’d sell them a pair of
ski boots I’d say, “Well, where do you ski?” They would say, “Well, in northern
Michigan”, and I’d say “Northern Michigan, past Grand Rapids?” “Oh, Boyne City and
Traverse City”, and not being familiar with northern Michigan, I said, “Oh, I think that’s
quite a bit North of Grand Rapids, I play ball there”, and they would say, “Oh, you do?”
Of course they wouldn’t see me in the summertime so, I’d sell ski boots and of course
bowling shoes and going back to 19—in the early forties, when the war started, in 1943
my uncle enlisted, that was my fathers very best friend. (57:19)
Now, my dad bowled too and again, “tag along Dolly”, I can remember the Windy City
Bowling—they were bowling alleys back then, not bowling lanes, and he would take me
and they would have the best orange soda in the whole world so, “Daddy, daddy can I go
with you tonight? Can I go with you?” and he would take me with him and the first thing
we would get in there, he would go to the bar and I’d have my orange soda and he would
say, “Now, sit and be quiet”, and I would say, “Oh, I’ll be very quiet”. I would watch his
team bowl and I said to him one time, “Can I try this game? Can I try bowling?” and he
said, “Ok” so, one Sunday morning after church we went to the bowling part and he got
me a ball with small finger holes and my father always bent over, it was very unique, he
always bent over and the ball hung down and he would push away. (58:19)
That’s the way I bowl, I followed his form, and there was sometimes the pin boys, you
know, they were off to war and they wouldn’t have one and he would go back to the pits
and he would set pins for me and then I would go back to the pits and I would set a game
for him. That way it only cost us a nickel instead of a dime to bowl a game.
Interviewer: “Let’s get back to baseball.”
I was just going to say that I became a professional bowler too.
Interviewer: “I didn’t know that. The first game you said you played with the
Grand Rapids, Chicks and you had two hits and after that it was a lot more difficult
to get hits because the pitchers were on to you. Is that because you played you
played these teams so often, they were able to—there weren’t that many teams for
one thing—“
14
�There were eight teams at that time.
Interviewer: “Eight teams.”
They each had—I would say, they each had four pitchers so, I didn’t face everybody in
the same series or time after time, but I’m sure I faced all of the pitchers at one time or
another. (59:40)
Interviewer: “How was your first season?”
It was good, it was good, my batting average wasn’t that bad, of course it wasn’t 300, but
I had a good season on the field, I enjoyed playing along side of my team mates, who
were very helpful, John Rawlings was our manager and he was a member of the
Pittsburgh Pirates and very knowledgeable Hall of Fame player, and because my hitting
wasn’t the best, I would have to go out there every day we were home and he would pitch
to me. Today I realize what I was doing wrong. (01:00:31) I was not throwing my arms
out at the ball, I was kind of crimping in on them and I think back, “No wonder I wasn’t a
good hitter, now I have to tell the kids how to throw the bat at the ball” .
Interviewer: “What were some of your memorable games? Which ones really stick
out in your mind?”
I find that question, not impossible, but difficult, because every game out there was a joy
for me. I looked forward to every game we played, there was never a game where I was
bored, there was never a time in my life I was bored, Always something to do,
(01:01:23)
I guess the one game—it was in Kalamazoo and probably the shocker of my life because
I hit one off the fence in center field and it was right off the top of the fence and it came
back into the field and I only got a triple, I don’t know if I scored or not or what
happened because I was in seventh heaven—to see me hit that ball that far—I think John
Rawlings fainted in the dugout. I don’t even know if my team cheered for me because
they must have all been in shock. (01:02:03)
That’s one game that stands out ant that was extremely fun.
Interviewer: “I have seen film footage of professionals like you sliding into a base
and it doesn’t look comfortable. Could you explain what it was like to actually slide
into a base?” (01:02:29)
One experience that I had—now we’ll be shocked again because I got a hit, and I’m
standing on first and not taking a big lead off and John Rawlings gives me the steal sign
and I’m thinking, “Does he know who he’s giving a steal sign to?” Old turtle Dolly?
Well, he thought I could get a—the pitcher had a high kick and “ok, he’s giving me the
steal sign”, I’ll show him I can do it. So, off I take and I slid and I was safe, but I had the
biggest, hurtingest strawberry in the whole world. (01:03:24) Well, everybody is saying,
“Just shake it off, shake it off”, well I’m not going to cry out there—I’d like to—
eventually a hit was made and I scored. I got to the dugout, Dotty Hunter waiting for me
15
�because she knew. Out came the methialate, we had the fan going, which is all your
teammates blowing and I’m thinking, “This is going to burn, this is going to burn like the
fires of hell”. On goes the methialate, on goes the bandage, a big bandage—get out there
and play. (01:04:09)
Well, I did my job, “It doesn’t hurt until the next day I’m thinking, it doesn’t hurt more
until the next day”. The next time I get up—this should be my most memorable game—
Dolly gets a hit—“I got another hit, this pitcher must like me, she’s grooving it”. I’m
standing at first and I look over across the playing field and John Rawlings gives me the
steal sign again and I’m thinking, “If I have to slide, they’re taking me to Butterworth
Hospital or some hospital that’s nearby, I know it for sure”. He gives me the steal sign—
well, up it goes, a high kick again and I ran in there. The catcher threw it to center
field—I didn’t have to slide and I’m thinking, everybody in the dugout is clapping too,
“Hey she made it to second”. Well, I don’t know if I scored on that one or not, but John,
as I came in, he was smiling at me and I said, “Did you think I was going slide again?”
He just smiled and walked away. (01:05:33)
I guess maybe we’ll chuck that hitting the top of the fence and use this as my most
memorable game. Two hits and a strawberry and the “ouchie”. It takes a while for that
to go away and it starts peeling and you want another hit, but if John gives me the steal
sign again I’ll really cry.
Interviewer: “Did anybody ever get hurt that you remember, beaned on the head
with a ball or anything like that?”
I don’t remember, I remember not getting beaned, but going back to the barnstorming
tour, one of our Cuban gals had a fastball, but she also had a very fast curve ball and I
was batting against her and she had thrown me a fastball and it was high, and I knew she
was going to throw me another fastball—I knew it, I knew it—I stood in that box and
here comes that fastball right at my arm, but I thought it was going to curve because she
was kind of smiling—that she would throw me the curve and get me to go for it—so, I’m
waiting for the fast curve and that ball is coming so fast and it didn’t curve and I didn’t
get out of the way and it hit my arm. (01:07:18) I couldn’t lift my arm for two or three
days and it was black and blue and of course we were on the barnstorming tour and we
were all living together and I said, “I thought you were going to throw me a curve”, and
she said, “I a fool a you, right Dolly?” I said, “You didn’t fool me, you hurt me”, but to
this day we’re still friends.
Interviewer: “The crowds initially were big, but you said there was a period of time
where it started to get less, the crowds were less and less. Did you actually notice
that?”
Of course I was through playing in 1952, but I had still gone to some of the games in
1953. I was in an automobile accident and hurt my leg so, that kind of finished my
playing career, but so many people ask, “Why did the league fold? Why did the people?”
This my own theory, now high schools were-this was really a family gathering, families
came to our games and now high schools were beginning to blossom out and have
activities in the evening. Cars now had gas so, dad could go here and mother could go to
the movies and get her dish. Back then if you went to the movies on Wednesday night,
16
�you could make a dish collection. Of course television was in the ballgame now and who
wanted to go out when Uncle Miltie was on? No body, your Show of Shows, they kept
the family around this new invention, television. (01:09:28) So, we saw the crowds drop
and like I say, it was a family and the family went from a closeness to everybody is out
doing their own thing so, the money wasn’t there to pay us and it wasn’t coming from
anywhere but the fans, and I always like to add this today, “We see the family now today,
coming back together. Who’s at the football games together? Who’s at the soccer games
together? Who takes the kids out to the golf course together? It’s mom and dad and the
kids and this is so wonderful because our children need this today. They need to know
that the family once again cares”. (01:10:27)
Interviewer. “I know you have been asked a variation on this question before, but
we know for a fact, the fact that you played baseball, that women played
professional baseball, did have an impact on the changing attitudes that schools had
toward girls playing sports and whatnot and now, as you well know, there’s soccer
teams, girls baseball team, there’s all kinds of things. What is your personal
opinion? What do you think was the effect, not just you, but your fellow players
had on the attitudes that people had towards girls and women?”
I am so proud to have been a part of the All Americans and to show people that women
had skills and if title nine was passed not only because of us, now young ladies can see
their dreams come true, like we saw our dreams, we are so proud to have been a part of
this and I went to a couple of the U.S. Olympic Softball Team games and these women,
these young women come up and to us and hug us and say “Thank you, because of you,
we can do this”, and not only myself, but you can talk to the oldest player in our league
or the youngest and they have the same pride that I do, and young girls, no matter what
they play, the Olympians, to be so proud of that team and to have them say, “Because of
you, we’re here”, makes us so proud. (01:12:38)
Interviewer: “Baseball Hall of Fame, tell us about—how did you find out? What
happened?”
The Baseball Hall of Fame, you know, we didn’t put on any marches, we didn’t put on
any protests, but we had a group of women in Fort Wayne, Dottie Collins—it was our
first board of directors that slowly went there and show them. Ted Spencer—let me tell
you something about Ted Spencer, the Curator. (01:13:27) He was schooled in Boston
and it just so happens that one of the players we had in 1943 named Mary Pratt, happened
to be a gym teacher, not PE, gym teacher in the one of the Boston schools. One of her
students was this young boy named Ted Spencer. Well, when we started, I want to say
we, but I talk about this board slowly infiltrating—no protests, just presenting the facts.
Going there, she found out that Ted Spencer happens to be the curator of the National
Baseball Hall of Fame. (01:14:27)
Well, what an in. so, she goes there, the Hall has a lot of her memorabilia, she contacts
our board and now they start having meetings with him and this has gone on since we
became an organization, a players organization in 1982, and we now get the word that
there’s a possibility that the hall of fame would recognize the All American Girls
17
�professional baseball league. How excited, how excited—I know a lot of the women
today say that we’ve been inducted and it’s because their proud, but in 1988, November
5th, 1988, the National Baseball Hall of Fame recognized all of the All American Girls.
(01:15:33)
They wanted to induct—there were some names thrown at them for induction, but our
board said, “No, we want to go in as a group. If we’re not inducted, we would be
honored to be recognized”, and Jane Forbes Clark, who is the CEO of—and has been one
of our biggest supporters, they have had us there on Mothers Day, and we have signed
autographs, they have—the tenth anniversary of the movie, they had Penny Marshall and
the movie stars, and we were invited to go along and she signed a book and we had
dinner with them, they have promoted us, they have things in their gift shop that are
related to us, they show the movie, Abbott and Costello, A League of Their Own and in
the bleachers, which is a section of the hall of fame, we had our sixtieth reunion and
Cooperstown wasn’t big enough to hold all the women who were going to be there so, we
stayed in Syracuse, but we had buses take us there. (01:17:03)
We had a breakfast in honor of us, we had, right in the hall where the pictures of the hall
of famers are, they had tables set with white table clothes and they had waiters in
tuxedos and white gloves, and they just honored us in the highest praise they could give
us and they do this, they do this. Now when they remodeled, we have a display on the
second floor which has pictures and memorabilia and the honor they have given us, we
are so proud of. (01:17:55)
Interviewer: “That’s wonderful, that’s wonderful. What’s your relationship with
the Whitecaps here locally?”
Before they became the Whitecaps I knew Lew Chamberlin and I talked to him because
he would have lunch at Crystal Springs Country Club. We belong there and we knew
they were working on bringing a baseball team and so many times I would sit down at the
table and say, “Lew, Grand Rapids, Michigan needs baseball back here again, don’t give
up your dream, don’t give up the pushing, don’t give up the hope, of bringing someone
here”, and Mr. VanderWitte is a friend of Lew’s and a friend of mine so, when I would
see him I’d say,” Please, keep prodding him, keep prodding him, people may give him
negative this and that, look what happened here, look what happened there, we need
baseball here”. (01:19:13)
So, I have been, not the last couple of years—summers have been really—I’ve been out
on speaking engagements and doing a lot of traveling, but we were the first ones to have
box seats out there the first season and I can go up and into the office and knock on the
door and say, “How ya going? How’s everything?” “Good, good”, and Jim Jarecki and
their all very close to my heart. Don’t worry, they’ll bring the—they’ve had so many
championships; you have to be proud of this team.
Interviewer: “They are very supportive of this project by the way. I have met with
Dan McCrath and with Jim and they are very much supporting the idea of doing
this documentary film. In fact they even helped—next summer they are going to
have some announcements and we are going to be helping to be part of this Library
of Congress Veterans History Project, to get the veterans who are in that crowd to
18
�come forward and be interviewed. I was very, very pleased with their respect for
not only the project it’s self, but for the “Chicks”. (01:20:22) It’s interesting,
somebody told me that one of the Grand Rapids Chicks threw a ball out this last
season, was that you or do you know who it was?”
I didn’t throw out this season, but we’ve thrown them out several times and Jim has said,
“You know we’ve got to get you girls back there again this year”. I’ve been kind of
proud because I’ve thrown the first ball out for the Braves and the Yankees. The Braves
in Cleveland, the Braves in St. Louis, down at spring training, and two summers ago,
maybe three, time flies when you have fun, I was invited out to Washington D.C. to the
Nationals game, to throw out the first pitch there, and they were playing the Cubs.
(01:21:11) We had a rain delay for a while, but eventually they called me to the mound.
I threw a perfect strike at the catcher, he never moved his glove, and forty seven thousand
people gave me a standing ovation, but now I don’t know why. Is it because I threw the
strike? Is it because an eighty-six year old lady could run? Or eighty—eighty, what am I
talking about? I’m only seventy-six, or I’ll just call it an old lady, could throw the ball?
(01:21:52) When I finished throwing that pitch, I got off the field and was going back to
the seats, of course everybody was standing and clapping and high fives and there were
two ladies that yelled and came running out there and had to have pictures so, were
standing in the aisle and we even held up the beer man for pictures. That was one of my
extremely fun outings.
Interviewer: “As we close, is there anything that you want to say? Something that
you think is important to get on the record about your experience with playing
baseball?” (01:22:37)
The girls and myself had this extra ordinary experience playing baseball in the All
American Girls Professional Baseball League. It was a time that we don’t know if ever
will happen again. We were born at the right time, we were in the right place and our
experience that we had then and that we have now, speaking and making this type of
documentary, the honor it has given us, and we will keep doing it until the grass is above
us. We love what we do—the grandmas out there now do not baby sit anymore, we’ve
told our children to go get a baby sitter because we’re busy doing and telling our story to
people who want to hear it. (01:23:44)
Interviewer: “Thank you so much, it was a real pleasure”
You’re welcome, you’re welcome.
19
�20
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_DKonwinski
Title
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Konwinski, Dolores L. (Interview transcript and video), 2008
Creator
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Konwinski, Dolores L.
Description
An account of the resource
Dolly Konwinski was born on May 27, 1931 in Chicago Illinois. Starting at the age of seven, she played baseball with a neighborhood team and her father who encouraged her to pursue it. In 1947, Konwinski got her big break and tried out for one of the four teams the All American Girls Professional Baseball League was trying to form in Chicago. She began her professional career playing for the Chicago Colleens. In 1949, after the barnstorming tour she was allocated to play for the Springfield Sallies. In 1950, she was traded to the Grand Rapids Chicks and played mainly for them until 1952 but played for a brief time with the Battle Creek Belles in 1951. During her professional career she mainly played second and third base.
Contributor
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-10-06
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5fc7576f3fb5e0a71ab05c0f3063f034.m4v
379449f22faeb4adf6c42ee5e20bfc5c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e28077674b090e59d908f0d40babe7ff.pdf
9190ccb5a6f681870a51c9ca30bccb01
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
AUDREY HAINE DANIELS, Pitcher
Women in Baseball
Born: Winnipeg, Canada May 5, 1927
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit,
Michigan at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, November 16, 2010
Interviewer: “Audrey, let’s start with your full name and where and when were you
born?”
My maiden name is Audrey May Haine. I was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada on
May 5, 1927. No, May 9th, I told you I would make some mistakes, meant to say 5/9/27.
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
I suppose it was not much different than any of the others at that time. I had a very good
childhood, it was a—my father really wasn’t there most of the time and when he was he
just upset the whole thing, do you know what I mean? We had kind of a bumpy road
there for a while, but we got out and played. We played baseball around the street with
the other kids. 1:28
Interviewer: “Where did you grow up? Was it on land or in the city?”
It was in the city of Winnipeg.
Interviewer: “So, did you live in an apartment?”
We had a house.
Interviewer: “All right, and then you went to school, did you walk to school?”
Yes we walked to school; we weren’t too far from school.
Interviewer: “All right, how did you get involved with playing baseball?”
1
�With the kids in the street, I mean we always played baseball. We didn’t have to stop too
often to let cars go by because where I lived in those days there weren’t too many cars.
The doctor went by occasionally and we didn’t really have a good bat or a good balls.
Our balls were usually half ripped, but I don’t think it ever bothered us, we were out there
playing and had a great time.
Interviewer: “It was neighborhood kids? Did you ever play kids in other
neighborhoods? 2:30
No
Interviewer: “So it was just pretty much by yourselves. How was school for you?
Did you like school?”
Interviewer: Oh, I liked school very much.
Interviewer: “You got into high school I take it?”
Yes I did
Interviewer: “Did you have any idea what you wanted to do at that stage of your
life?”
I wanted to be a nurse.
Interviewer: “How did the opportunity to become a baseball player come along?”
I knew I had no opportunity to be a nurse for sure, and baseball was just something that I
grew up with. I didn’t just say, “I want to be a baseball player”, I just grew up with it and
I played for a team called the St. Anthony Brown Birds when I was fifteen or something
like that and I was a pretty good pitcher.
Interviewer: “Now, is this softball or baseball?”
2
�Softball, so I moved up to the next bracket and I played with them for a year and had a
very good year.
Interviewer: “Now, this is just for fun and you’re not getting paid or anything like
that?”
No, absolutely not, this is just teams that were put together and you had managers and
everything that went with it, uniforms. 3:48
Interviewer: “All girls?”
Yes, all girls
Interviewer: “When did you first hear about the professional league?”
Well, I got a call from a girl who played in the league the first year and her name was
Dotty Hunter, she called and she said that a scout had seen me play and wanted her to get
in touch with me and tell me all about the league and see if I would be interested.
Interviewer: “Had you heard about it before?”
No, I had never heard about the league before, so I invited Dotty over to my home and
she told us, my mother and myself and my sister probably, all about the league and that it
was run on very high standards and that the players lived in private homes with good
families and that we got paid for playing and when on the road we had real money and
stayed in the best hotels. So, that sounded pretty good to me 4:46
Interviewer: “What was your mother’s reaction?”
Well, she didn’t react, and she certainly didn’t say, “no, you’re not doing that”, no she
didn’t, she always let us have opportunities when they came up.
Interviewer: “How old were you at that time?”
Fifteen
3
�Interviewer: “So, they were offering you to play in the league at fifteen?”
I was fifteen when I got my contract and I turned sixteen that following summer and then
when I played and got to leave, I had just turned seventeen..
Interviewer: “What was your first experience? Did you go for tryouts?”
I never went to tryouts, and being young; I assumed I was on the team.
Interviewer: “Wow! Where did you go, to Peoria?” 5:46
First of all Dottie Hunter came and explained the whole thing to my mother and me
finally said I could go. I had never been more than one hundred miles from home or
ordered or eaten a meal out, so I was just about as green as the grass we were going to
play on, you know. I had never had any experience being away, so it was a pretty
exciting and nerve-wracking experience for me to join the other players from western
Canada and get on the train in Winnipeg and head for Chicago. 6:48
Interviewer: “You had never been on a train before?”
No, I hadn’t
Interviewer: “How was the trip?”
Well, it was nerve-wracking for me you know, you want to do the right thing and
everything is new to you and I don’t think I slept much that first night on that train and
the first sun-up I looked out and saw the wonderful rolling hills of Wisconsin go by and it
is a memory etched in my mind forever, those wonderful rolling hills and green grass.
Everything I did-- I was a little bit nervous about everything and when we had breakfast
on the train I just didn’t even know what to order because I had never been out. Seeing
the waiter with this white towel over one arm and a silver coffee pot in the other had, I
4
�was just baffled by it all. 8:05 It was just over whelming to me, but we headed out and I
guess most of the girls going were in the same position as I was.
Interviewer: “Had you met some of them at that point and you were talking?”
Oh yeah, I had met some of them and there might have been one from the team that I was
on going as well, but we headed up to Chicago and we were met there and they put us in
a hotel.
Interviewer: “Did you meet the chaperone? Did you have a chaperone that met
you?” 8:40
No, personnel from the league met us because at that time we weren’t assigned a
chaperone. You were assigned a chaperone when you were on a team. So, we arrived
and they put us up in a hotel and I think it was on the seventeenth floor. Alright now,
wow!
Interviewer: “Did you have a room mate in your hotel room?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Also from Canada?”
Yes, I think it was the player I had played with before. Then of course there was the
spring training the first day out there.
Interviewer: “What was that like coming out?”
It was—I was really nervous and self-conscious because I didn’t have all those clothes
and mind you there were others in the same bracket that I was, but I didn’t have the
clothes that they had. I remember on a hot day I had this pleated woolen skirt on and I
was just about melting, but you met these girls and they were from all over the U.S. and
Canada and you realized that they were in much the same spot at I was. 9:59 Spring
5
�training went well and much like in the movie, they put up a list of who made what and
where. I was assigned to the “Minneapolis Millerettes” and it was a new team in the
league that year. Unfortunately the game did not go over well there because the field
where we played was too large for the type of game we played and it was just something
they weren’t ready for, so during the season, I guess halfway through the season, that
whole team went to Fort Wayne, Indiana where it was very successful. 10:44 I played
for Fort Wayne and our manager was Bill Wambsganns, who made the only unassisted
triple play in the world series in 1920, I believe, and he was great. So, I played for Fort
Wayne for two years I guess,
Interviewer: “What was your—going back to your first team, you actually played
for half the season though?”
Yes I did, we played half the season and the other half we were a road team. We were
called the “orphans”.
Interviewer: “Did your nervousness start to go away once you started playing?”
Yes I think it did a little bit, but I was always tense you know, you don’t get over that in a
week or two. 11:35
Interviewer: “Plus you were very young.”
Exactly, I had just turned seventeen.
Interviewer: “How did you rate yourself compared to the other players? Did you
feel like you were a good baseball player?”
Well, I always felt like I was never as good as the others, but I was a good pitcher, yes I
was
Interviewer: “Is that what you trained to be, a pitcher?”
6
�Yes
Interviewer: “Did you play any other position?”
Never
Interviewer: “Same with me, I couldn’t play any other positions and that’s why
they gave me pitching.”
That’s probably the way it was with me. I couldn’t have made out it any other position.
Interviewer: “The first manager you had, did you learn very much from him? One
of the things I have asked the girls is that they knew how to play baseball, but the
managers gave them new tricks and techniques they didn’t know about.”
My first manager was—I can’t remember his name, but I don’t think he really taught the
girls too much. We were all so basically green that it was a big job to—but we gradually
got pretty darn good. 12:49
Interviewer: “Were you thinking at that stage the this was going to be your career,
that you were going to be a professional baseball player?”
No, absolutely not, no
Interviewer: “This is going to sound like a stupid question, but what was the point,
why did you do it then?”
Because it was fun and I got paid for it, I mean, it was something I loved to do and I got
paid for it quite well and I was able to send money home to my mother. If you’re a ball
player and you’re on a team and you’re doing ok, you’re not leaving it.
Interviewer: “So, what was the fort Wayne experience like?” 13:29
It was lovely, we had a lot of Canadians on that team and I played with them for about
two years and Bill Wambsganns was a terrific guy.
7
�Interviewer: “Did he treat you like a woman or treat you like a ball player?”
Oh, I think he treated us like a ball player with consideration. We had chaperones of
course, who really took over that part of the job.
Interviewer: “You didn’t have to go through the charm school or any of that?”
I did, don’t you know?
Interviewer: “Well, let’s talk about that. You were a green seventeen year old.”
I thought maybe you would recognize that I had been to charm school. Yes, we learned
how to pour teas, how to sit properly, stand properly, how to walk with a book on your
head straight and tall, and we learned all those essential things. I think they only had the
charm school for one year as I recall, but we were all so bright we picked everything up
in one year. 14:45
Interviewer: “What was a typical day like during the season, you got up at a
certain time?”
Yup, got up and if we were home, probably had a practice scheduled and of course the
afternoon or evening baseball game and we had to be in the home or in our rooms when
we were on the road, two hours after the game. On the road we did—we went to a movie
or just walked around the city or things like that.
Interviewer: “Well, this is a new experience for you and you’re completely outside
of the home, what were you thinking?
You make friends and there were a lot of Canadians on that team, so we felt a bond you
know, so we sort of strengthened each other. 15:46
Interviewer: “there were older girls there too?”
8
�They were mostly older than I was, but they were maybe eighteen, nineteen and even
twenty.
Interviewer: “What was your social life like during the Fort Wayne period?”
Well, very often we were invited out to dinner by some of the families, they were really
very good to us and I think that was probably our only social events that we got to go to,
otherwise we were pretty well secluded from—I mean it was practice in the afternoon,
game at night, so you didn’t have too much time to get into trouble, but we tried hard.
Interviewer: “What were the road trips like?”
The road trips were a lot of fun, but also very tiring, we played every day and double
headers on Sundays and got up and got on that—at first each team didn’t have a bus, so
that first year we traveled by train and after that each team got their own bus. We spent
the time by doing crossword puzzles, reading a book and singing the songs of , popular
songs of those days. 17:04
Interviewer: “Any particular memorable games during the Fort Wayne
experience?”
Fort Wayne? No, I don’t think so or maybe that was the year—that might have been the
year I pitched a no hitter. We were playing against Kenosha, it was a very drizzly day,
kind of foggy, and I was pitching against Helen Fox, who was also a Canadian girl and
very good, and we both pitched a no hitter because of course, the fog and the mist, I mean
we were just great.
Interviewer: “Once the season was over with you went back to Canada, you went
back home?”
9
�Yes I did, went back to Winnipeg and back to my job. They always took me—I worked
for the Hudson Bay Company and they always just took me back and I left in the spring
and came back in the fall. 17:57
Interviewer: “They knew you were a ball player?”
Yes, of course
Interviewer: “Were you kind of a local celebrity?”
Well I was kind of because I had done so well and my picture was in the paper practically
after every game. I must sound like I’m kind of—but anyway it was because I had made
the record in strikeouts and stuff like that. Yeah, people treated you very good.
Interviewer: “So, Fort Wayne you did for two years and then what happened after
that?”
I was traded to Grand Rapids, to the Grand Rapids Chicks. I think I played with them a
year and a half and then I went to—Grand Rapids Chicks, I can’t remember where after
the Chicks.
Interviewer: “We’ll go there later. How was your experience with the Grand
Rapids Chicks?”
Great, all the experiences were great. You know, we were all young, we were just
looking for new friends and we did find them and you would always stay with a few
Canadians because you were Canadian. I always had about four or five Canadians that
went to have lunch together or whatever. The Californians probably stuck together and
that’s the way it went. 19:23
Interviewer: “Any memorable games when you were with the Chicks?”
10
�No, I had some very good games, but none of them stand out except that no- hitter that I
pitched. I did pitch another no hitter during my days.
Interviewer: “How were the teams that you played against?”
Oh, they were very good, we had some absolutely marvelous players, and they were just
outstanding you know. When we first started playing, people came out to laugh—“oh my
gosh, girl baseball players”, but we showed them that we could play just as well as men
and gradually then the game did change into the regular baseball. 20:18
Interviewer: “So, you started out pitching underhand?”
Yes, and then side arm and then overhand.
Interviewer: “How was that transition for you?”
It went pretty well. When they transferred from the regular, from the size of baseball that
we were using to the regular hardball size, they sent us baseballs for us to work on before
we got to the spring training and Doris Barr, who lived on the same street as I did, just
per chance, she knew someone who allowed us to practice in the armory where we had a
lot of space and that’s what we did. 21:08
Interviewer: “So by the time you got to spring training, you already had been
practicing throwing overhand?”
Right
Interviewer: “Was that a difficult transition for you though?”
Not really, I don’t recall it as being, if I had to pitch overhand I would have found that
difficult.
11
�Interviewer: “Did your record change? You were pitching very well in the
beginning with the larger ball, but was there any difference in terms of your
record?”
I can’t tell you that, I just really—it’s not a secret or anything, I just don’t remember.
Interviewer: “Nobody complained anyway and said you were a lousy pitcher now?”
No, they didn’t fire me or anything. 21:52
Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?”
It didn’t matter what kind of uniform they would have given us, we would have put it on.
We were playing baseball and we were so thrilled to be there, but there was a lot of
laughing etc. of the uniforms, especially by fans in the first year, but I think most of us
liked to play in that. I cannot speak for all of them and I know that some didn’t.
Interviewer: “I guess what I’m trying to get at is, I know a lot of them did
adjustments. One of you said that when she first started wearing it and when she
went out to catch a ball she got most of her hands in her dress as opposed to getting
the ball. Did you alter your uniform at all?”
I altered mine because coming through on the pitch. I had to pin a large portion of the
dress onto the front so it wouldn’t go into that material. 22:52
Interviewer: “If you were on the bus and you needed to get off the bus could you
wear blue jeans?”
No, no, you had to have a dress or skirt on and no, we were never allowed to get off at
stops, so we followed the rules.
Interviewer: “The playing field it’s self changed, the distance and whatnot. How
did you adjust to that?”
12
�Yes it did and yes, Philip Wrigley wanted the game to be faster and more like baseball, so
the pitchers mound was lengthened and the base paths were lengthened and now we were
pitching either side arm, I believe started side arm, and then side arm and overhand, so
those were the changes that were made and you could of course in regular softball you
can’t lead off now, so we could do everything that the major leagues could do. 24:03
Interviewer: “Then you were traded again?”
Yes, then I was traded to oh, gosh, the Peoria Red Wings.
Interviewer: “How was that experience?”
Very nice and I liked that team very much. We had a very good team.
Interviewer: “Any favorites of the three?”
I think Fort Wayne, I think because of all the Canadians on that team.
Interviewer: “Any particular hitter that you did not want to go up against?”
I know there were some that didn’t want to go up against me because I was wild at times.
Of course there were hitters that I didn’t want to pitch against. I mean they were good
hitters. 24:58
Interviewer: “By the time you got through several years now, were you looking at
this as something that was a lot of fun and not something you were going to do for
the rest of your life?”
Oh no, no, no
Interviewer: “What did you want to do?”
I wanted to get married and I had been going with my husband, previously my boyfriend,
for six years or so, so we eventually got married.
13
�Interviewer: “I guess that’s one of the questions that I have. How did you meet
him?”
Oh, we lived on the same block and on the same street.
Interviewer: “Oh, from childhood?”
Yeah, we never dated anyone else and now we have been married for sixty-one years.
Interviewer: “Wow! I didn’t know that.”
We’re going to stick with it. 26:02
Interviewer: “You’re finally sure of each other.”
Yeah, the trial’s over.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you knew him from childhood and you went off to play,
you came back and he was?”
He was there waiting. Actually we generally played catch most of the time. Walking
down the street, he’d go backwards and I’m be going forward pitching to him, but that’s
what we did.”
Interviewer: “Did he come to any of your games?”
I think he was able to get to—let’s see, one of the seasons, where was I at that time? He
came down to see me play.
Interviewer: “I understand he has a special picture he carries around with him?”
He does
Interviewer: “What is that picture?”
It’s of me in my uniform and he’s carried it around for all the years we’ve known—when
we got the picture it was probably in the third year or something of my ball days and yes,
14
�he still has it. 27:12 He’s very proud of it and I’m proud of the picture and proud of
him, maybe proud of him and then proud of the picture.
Interviewer: “What brought your baseball career to an end?”
Getting married, what could you do? I mean, yes we got married and I did play for a year
after that, yes.
Interviewer: “Then what, you got married and had a child as well, but did you go to
work of any kind? Were you still working?”
No, and then we were living in the states, we had moved from Canada and I played home
games for the Rockford Peaches.
Interviewer: “But then, you made a decision not to play anymore? The league still
went on didn’t it?” 28:11
Well, I made the decision because we had family and then another family and you know,
we added on and it was impossible for me to play, but I think family like probably just
became more important.
Interviewer: “Did you miss it?”
I think I probably did, no doubt about that.
Interviewer: “Some of the girls never even talked about their baseball career and
their kids didn’t even know about it. How about you?”
Same thing, because people made fun of you, like you told them you played and you
played men’s rules and they go and say,”yeah”, you know, “yeah, right”, so you felt
embarrassed, so there came a time when you didn’t tell anybody. 29:02
Interviewer: “How did that change because you came to a certain point in your
life—you’re coming to reunions for example?”
15
�Absolutely
Interviewer: “Was it the movie that changed things?”
I think so and I think the movie helped a great deal, right.
Interviewer: “How did you hear about the movie to begin with?”
We had meetings and talked about this movie and that there was a possibility because of
the Players Association, we have a Players Association, and all news gets into the
newsletter and people have a chance to study it and that’s how it came about.
Interviewer: “Now, the association formally began in? I forgot what year it was, do
you remember?”
I do not.
Interviewer: “Were you one of the first members?”
Oh yeah, I was one of the first, I mean in that group.
Interviewer: “Right, we talked with someone who actually put together the original
database and contacted all of you and said, “we’re forming this association”. 30:05
After all those that have gone by and not talking about it, why did you want to get
involved with an association of ex ball players?”
Of course you’re—it’s in you and of course you’ve met all these young women and
everything. The girls you played with, I mean they were all important to us and they
were like family to us. After all we lived with them all summer and played ball and kept
in touch with them and Christmas cards and they were and still are a very, very important
part of our life.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie?
16
�Well, I think we liked the movie because we saw that it was pretty well accurate and we
were happy with Madonna’s part in it. I mean, it wasn’t what Madonna was popular for
at that time, so we were happy with the movie. 31:13 I think we all really liked it, I did
anyway.
Interviewer: “Did it change your attitude about talking about the baseball
period?”
Yeah, it did, definitely, oh definitely because now people saw it and they were able to see
that it was pretty good and these girls could really play.
Interviewer: “In terms of reaction, people actually treat you almost like movie stars
because of that movie.”
Yes they do.
Interviewer: “It rubs off on me, I told my students--I’m a professor at the
university, and I tell my students that I’m doing this documentary and they’re
excited because I get a chance to meet you.”
It’s amazing you know, we can’t understand it, but now we’re used to it because it’s been
going on year after year and they come and, “oh my gosh, can I have your autograph?”
Come on. 32:15
Interviewer: “You seem amused by it.”
I am amused by it you know, by the way they are just lined up with a hat to sign or a
baseball glove or a card or whatever.
Interviewer: “Why do you think people react that way?”
Well, I think it was something different that turned out ok. It was pleasing to watch, it
was on the up and up.
17
�Interviewer: “Now, you had a full life, you’ve had a family and you’ve had a lot of
other experiences, and how does that few years, how does that fit into the scheme of
things in your life? You obviously loved it.”
You’re asking me to compare that?
Interviewer: “Yes, somewhat.”
My baseball life with my family life?” 33:08
Interviewer: “Well, I’m not asking you for a comparison, if you prefer this or
prefer that, just where does it fit in terms of—some of the girls said, for example, it
was their first experience of really becoming a woman and having a more broad
understanding of life as opposed to being in a small town. Was it a like changing
experience for you at all?”
It taught me a lot. It taught me to be considerate, it taught me quite a few things you
know.
Interviewer: “At the very least you know how to pour tea, right?”
Listen, I was one of them that learned how to pour tea and if you ever need someone to
pour tea at some of your social events.
Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you about putting a book on your head and see if
you can still do that or not.”
I honestly—yes, we learned all that and I thought you would notice it. 34:12
Interviewer: “Looking back on it now you said you’re amused by how so many
people just get so excited about all this kind of thing and I had asked you why you
think people are so excited about it and you said because it was something unique
and it’s got to be more than that. It’s—young girls especially look up to you.”
18
�Yes they do, they really do. I mean, even now if we go out to eat or if somebody knows
that I played in the league, they are just all mushy. We get better service, we give them a
card and it just fixes everything up.
Interviewer: “I want to ask you a more philosophical question, it may be a tough
one. Looking back on that experience at that time, what do you think the All
American Girls Baseball League accomplished? What do you think they—I mean
they were a baseball team, there are lots of baseball teams.” 35:15
No, we accomplished more than playing baseball, we showed that we were as equal as
boys. Coming into sports and giving the women’s sports the same consideration that
you’re giving the boys and we did you know, chapter nine [Title IX] was passed for equal
opportunity in sports and I think we accomplished a great deal and we’re proud of what
we did, we’re very proud of it. If you’ve been through—I’m sure you’ve been through
and seen the girls and that and yes, we’re proud of what we did.
Interviewer: “Let me ask you a real stupid question. Why do you come to the
reunions?”
Because I love all of my friends and it’s so exciting. You come to see your friends,
absolutely; because they’re like more than just friends and some of them you probably
think are your family you know. Yes, that’s why we all come and I’m sure that you
might get a similar answer from many. 36:27
Interviewer: “One of the things about reunions that I’ve learned, because I got to
reunions of my fathers, for example, because of his military history. You get to
know people that you didn’t get to know when you were playing ball. Did you meet
some of the players that you never knew?”
19
�Yes, absolutely, that’s true—that you never got to meet. You played against them, but
then you were a player and they were a player and you just hoped you got the batter of
them, but other than that, you come for your love of the game and love of the people you
played with.
Interviewer: “Did you have any involvement in the production of the film like some
of the women did?” 37:16
I happened to be an extra. I did get into the movie as an extra and it was great and I got
paid.
Interviewer: “What scene were you in?”
Ah, well when they were talking about the Canadians there was a scene there and they
were singing a song about the Canadians and there were about three or four Canadians
and they had us standing at the back and we were Canadians, Irish ones and Swedes, so
there were a few Canadians in that. Then I was in another spot too, but you know, you
have to be quick to see that.
Interviewer: “Were you in Cooperstown film at all?”
Yes and that’s in Cooperstown and that’s in the scene where we’re being inducted into
the Hall of Fame. 38:18
Interviewer: “Now, did you go to the induction?”
Absolutely
Interviewer: “What was that like?”
Incredible, incredible, I mean it’s all incredible you know, something that other people
have never done. I’m sure other people have done more important things, but this was
special.
20
�Interviewer: “What was your reaction to the whole league being inducted into the
Hall of Fame?”
It’s fabulous, I mean we all figured we had it coming and we deserved it so to speak. We
played hard and a lot of people enjoyed our games and why not? 39:05
Interviewer: “My favorite scene in the whole movie, and I actually use it in my
classes, is the scene between Tom Hanks and Geena Davis where he says—“she said
it got too hard.”
Yes, that’s one of my favorites.
Interviewer: “That brings tears to my eyes whenever I watch that.”
It’s hard yes, something like everything is hard you know. Yes, that’s one of my favorite
spots.
Interviewer: “He says, “of course it’s hard, if it was easy everybody could do it”,
and obviously they couldn’t because only you guys could do it.”
Right
Interviewer: “Which is great. Well good, I’ve enjoyed myself and I hope you have
survived through this.”
Yeah, well I did my best.
Interviewer: “Thank you so much.”
21
�22
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-58_ADaniels
Title
A name given to the resource
Daniels, Audrey (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dearfield, Norma
Description
An account of the resource
Audrey Daniels was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba, in 1927. She grew up playing ball with the boys in the neighborhood, and then joined a girls' team when she was fifteen. She was later spotted by Dotty Hunter, who had played in the All American league's first season and encouraged her to try out. She joined the league in 1944, and was assigned initially to the Minneapolis Millerettes, who then moved to Fort Wayne, and she later played for Grand Rapids, South Bend and Rockford. She was a successful pitcher who threw several no-hitters over the course of her career.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4