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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5226560f3829ce3ed21ec829bf36de5.m4v
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a5e04c105fa679f4dd6951cb3f746f30.pdf
fd7cbcd2fa95f2861fb64b196870c57a
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ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
BETSY JOCHUM
Women in Baseball
Born: Cincinnati, Ohio 1921
Resides: South Band, Indiana
Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 4, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, October 26, 2010
Interviewer: “Betsy, can you start by giving us some background on yourself?
Beginning with where and when were you born?”
I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio.
Interviewer: “In what year?”
1921, and when we were kids we use to play on the corner lot with an old beat up ball
and when the cover came off we would just put friction tape on it and keep on playing.
That’s how I started out playing and eventually I played on the local softball teams and
went to the national tournaments in Chicago and Detroit and then P.K. Wrigley sent his
club scout to Cincinnati for tryouts and I made that and we were sent to Chicago to try
out at Wrigley Field and I played for the South Bend Blue Sox.
Interviewer: “Ok, back up a little and we will fill out some more of the pieces of the
story as we go forward. So, you’re talking about playing sandlot ball with balls you
knocked the covers off of. What did your family do for a living in those days?”
My dad was a carpenter and my mother stayed home.
Interviewer: “And growing up there you’re getting—by the time you’re nine or ten
years old the depression is starting and things like that. Was it hard for him to
make a living?”
1
�The great depression, yes, and according to Tom Brokaw were “The Greatest
Generation” right? 4:52
Interviewer: “Did your father have a hard time getting enough work to keep the
family fed?”
During the depression he didn’t have a job for quite a while, but then things picked up.
Interviewer: “So, there wasn’t a lot of money to go buy bats and ball s with or
things like that?”
No, we just played with any old thing and friction tape to fix anything.
Interviewer: “Now did you have school sports that you could play or teams?”
Not for the girls, we just had intramurals maybe once a year.
Interviewer: “Now you talked about getting involved with an organized softball
league, and how was that run or what was the set-up for that?”
They got a sponsor and they bought the uniforms and we couldn’t get anything paid, we
were armatures and I played on a team in Covington, Kentucky and Cincinnati and then
we went to the national tournaments in Chicago and Detroit and we ended up in second
place I think at one time. 6:02
Interviewer: “That’s sort of how you came to the attention of the Cubs scout when
they were looking for people to go build this league with. Did they come to
Cincinnati to scout you and how did that work did they just watch a game?”
No, they hit fly balls and you ran this way and ran that way and run back and batting etc.
Interviewer: “And were there a lot of women they were looking at or just a few of
you?”
I think there were about six and they took four for the same team.
2
�Interviewer: “So, a pretty small group that they had identified already as the ones
they want. Alright, then how did they get you up to Chicago?”
On the James Whitcomb Riley train and we stayed at the Belmont Hotel in Chicago and
P.K. Wrigley game us free food, free shoes, free glove, everything. 6:59
Interviewer: “Now you were born in 1921 and the league starts in 1943, so you’re a
little older than some of the women that were getting involved in the league.”
I was twenty-one and we had some players that were fifteen and sixteen, Dot Schroeder
and Lois Florreich and a few after that.
Interviewer: “Right, now did you have a job then before you went up?”
I was working in Cincinnati as a Comptometer operator; they’re out of existence now,
Comptometers.
Interviewer: “What is a Comptometer?”
Added, multiply, divide, subtract.
Interviewer: “Sort of an adding machine?”
A glorified adding machine really.
Interviewer: “So, at that point you didn’t really have a whole lot of exciting job
prospects or whatever at that point?”
No, I think I had to pay to get that job, it was during the depression and then I started
playing ball. Getting paid to play a game, that was nice.
Interviewer: “That’s a good deal. All right, so you go up and this is your first
season in it, so they bring you up to Chicago and what happens when you get
there?” 8:09
3
�We had tryouts again and they ran us all over the outfield, batting practice and all that,
but the big thing was, we tried out at Wrigley field and women were never on that field.
We were the first ones to play under our temporary license, our league.
Interviewer: “Did you have any sense, of the women that tried out, how many
actually made the teams? Did most of them get assigned to teams or did a lot of
them get sent home?”
A lot of them got sent home. There were only four teams and I think there were sixteen
or seventeen players on each team and there were, I think, five hundred trying out. I
don’t know, I forgot. There were quite a few there that didn’t make it. They put just a
poster up in the hotel, not like in the movie, it was in the hotel the next morning and if
your name was on it, you made it. 9:08
Interviewer: “All right, What team were you assigned to?”
South Bend, and the four managers had to set up the teams not knowing which teams
they were going to coach or manage of the four original teams, Kenosha, Rockford,
South Bend and Racine.
Interviewer: “You said the four managers set up the teams.”
There were four teams, but they didn’t know which team they were going to manage at
that time, until later.
Interviewer: “What was the logic of that? Why did they do it that way?”
Well, they could set up a good team for themselves, otherwise, like anybody else would
do.
Interviewer: ‘So this gave them some balance, they had to create teams?”
They always tried to keep the teams evenly balanced as far as skills.
4
�Interviewer: “All right, now, at least in the movie version of things, there’s a pretty
big production made out of efforts to teach all of these girls how to be like ladies;
how to dress and how to act and that kind of thing. How much of that did you get
and how much do you remember about that?” 10:08
The first one was Helena Rubenstein and she taught us how to put on a coat and how to
go up and down the stairs and we each got a make-up kit, that was put away, but it was
good and worthwhile and it was a good thing to do.
Interviewer: “What other rules and regulations stood out at that point?”
We always had to wear a skirt, and we were not allowed to wear shorts in public and of
course and for the four or five years we had the North Shore and the South Shores and
each team had their own bus and when you were on the bus you could wear shorts and
when you got off the bus you had to put a skirt on. Those were the strict rules and no
smoking or drinking.
Interviewer: “Did they try to control dating and things like that?”
You had to see the chaperone, each team had their own chaperone and you had to be
checked out with her.
Interviewer: “And who was the girls’ chaperone when you started?”
It was Rose Way from Tennessee and she had to wear the players’ uniform and the next
was Helen Moore from Milwaukee and they had like an airline hostess outfit and the one
after that was Lucille Moore and she was from South Bend and that was through 1948
and after that some of the players became chaperones when they ran out of money. 11:32
Interviewer: “What did you think of the chaperones?”
5
�Well, they weren’t nerds like they were in the movie. They were very nice and they were
our first aid people and if you got a strawberry they patched you up. They were really
nice I thought, and they looked really nice in their uniform, those airline hostess
uniforms.
Interviewer: “Did they look after the younger players particularly?”
If they got homesick they would kind of talk to them.
Interviewer: “What kind of living accommodations did you have?”
Well, in the movie it showed like a boarding house. We didn’t—it wasn’t true, we lived
in private homes and we had a room in private homes of people who were usually fans of
the team and that’s the way it was, not in a big dorm. It was usually close enough to the
ballpark, so you could walk to the ballpark. 12:26
Interviewer: “How much did they pay you when you started playing?”
Fifty dollars plus expenses when we were out of town and that was a lot of money
because coffee was only five cents then.
Interviewer: “Was that a month?”
A week
Interviewer: “That was pretty good money then at that time.”
I made more money than my dad made.
Interviewer: “What did you do with your money when you made it?”
I tried to save it for later on and I bought myself some nice clothes every once in a while
Interviewer: “What position did you play?”
6
�I started out playing left field and I played center field and some first base when the first
baseman was injured. Then when they pitched over hand I pitched and when I wasn’t
pitching I played in the outfield and substitute batting. 13:18
Interviewer: “Were you a good hitter?”
Yeah, except in 1948 I got tired I think and we didn’t have any days off. We played
every day and traveled. We got in Southfield sometimes at five o’clock in the morning
and played that evening and it was really tiring sometimes.
Interviewer: “Now, were you a power hitter or a singles hitter?”
No, I hit a lot of doubles and sometimes the people in South Bend would give us silver
dollars for hitting doubles or triples or whatever. I just hit a few home runs.
Interviewer: “Did the field have outfield fences like modern parks do or did some of
them have open ends?”
They all had fences. Now, in Racine it was a humongous field and if you hit to center
field it would roll a mile after that, but most of them weren’t that large. Kenosha had a
small field and the fog would roll in off of Lake Michigan and in the outfield you
couldn’t see the ball sometimes. 14:23 They moved the field to a different location later
on. In South Bend we played at Bendix Field first and then moved over to Playland Park
which was an amusement park with a race track and the ball field was inside the racetrack
and home plate was on a cinder track, so if you slid home it was kind of ouchie.
Interviewer: “What was the fan response to women playing baseball, particularly
in that first season? How were you received in South bend and other places?”
7
�When the league first started we were playing softball and they didn’t believe that we
could play until they came out and saw us play and then they came out all the time and
watched us. 15:15
Interviewer: “What kind of people were your fans? Were they kids or older people,
men, women?”
They were family people, professional people, doctors, lawyers and bankers and
everything. You know I always thought they didn’t wear those hats until they showed
old movies and everyone wore hats to the ball game, those big gangster type hats. When
Penny Marshall made the movie they all had those hats on and I thought they didn’t wear
hats, but they did. We went and watched the movie being made and Penny Marshall
really talks that way all the time, but they were real nice to us down there, the whole
bunch. Gretsky’s wife, he’s the ice hockey player, the big tall blond that pitched a few
times, but we had a real nice time and they treated us like stars. 16:08
Interviewer: “Now, are there particular games that stand out in your memory or
things that happened in individual games?”
Yes, when I hit a foul ball and it hit me up in the eye and I went flat on my back, I
remember that, a stupid thing.
Interviewer: “All right, how about good things?”
When I caught a ball bare handed. My glove was over here and I caught it bare handed
over there, I remember that.
Interviewer: “Now, the time you played with the Blue Sox did they win the league
championship any of those years?”
8
�Not while I was playing. They came in second, but they never really won anything until
later on in the fifties I think it was.
Interviewer: “Who do you thing were some of the best players you played alongside
of on that team?”
On our team or the other team?
Interviewer: “Your team?” 17:06
Jean Faut, Schroeder, Liz Mahon, Worth
Interviewer: “What made them stand out from the other players?”
They made everything look easy instead of making it look hard.
Interviewer: “Were there particular pitchers that you didn’t like to go up against?”
The slow pitchers, the faster they threw it the better I liked it. I couldn’t hit slow
pitching.
Interviewer: “So, did you like it, in terms of hitting, as they began to move away
from the softball style and did the ball stay the same size during the time you were
playing or did the ball get smaller?”
We were lucky, the ones that started out, we started out with a softball and as we kept
playing the balls got small and the bases got longer and the pitchers moved back,
underhand, sidearm to overhand, so we were kind of eased into it, the older players.
Interviewer: “But, if you like to have faster pitches and they started to move in that
direction from sidearm to overhand, did the pitchers get faster or could they pitch
just as fast underhand?” 18:13
I would say underhand was a lot faster because they were a lot closer. They were only
about forty feet away and they could zing it in there.
9
�Interviewer: “So, you actually got a little more time to wait on the pitch if it’s fiftysix feet out or whatever they got it to.”
I think we did--too long
Interviewer: “Now tell me a little bit more about the traveling, you mentioned you
were out—“
It started out we rode the South Shore, North Shore electric trains from Chicago to
Racine and South Bend and then in 1945 each team had their own bus, which was nice.
They weren’t air conditioned, but no more suitcases to lug around from station to station
and it was so hard and it was so hot to carry that suitcase with your uniform in it and on
the bus the uniforms were put in the back and we wouldn’t have to mess with all that.
19:08
Interviewer: “How would you get to Rockford then? Was there a train that went
that way too or would you?”
I really don’t remember.
Interviewer: “Kenosha, Racine and South Bend are conveniently on rail lines that
go out of Chicago.”
I remember when they had a team out in Minneapolis and we rode the train out there and
it seemed to last forever out there, but that didn’t last very long and Milwaukee either. I
don’t remember how we got to Rockford the first few years. It must have been by train
or bus or taxi I don’t know.
Interviewer: “ I guess it was the Milwaukee team about one year and then it went to
Grand Rapids.”
Yes, and Minneapolis went to Fort Wayne.
10
�Interviewer: “Right, so you got that. Which team do think was probably the best
team that you played against?”
I thought the Grand Rapids and Rockford teams were the best while I was playing. 20:02
Interviewer: “Who did you have as a manager while you were playing?”
We had Bert Niehoff first, all major-league players, Marty McManus, Chet Grant, he was
a football man really, and then Marty came back again.
Interviewer: “Alright, and how effective were they as managers do you think?”
I liked Marty McManus he was my favorite. He would take more chances and we had
more hit and run and things like that and the other ones wouldn’t do too much of that.
Interviewer: “Did they do much coaching in terms of teaching you to do better or
did they just send you on out there?”
Oh no, they taught us how to bat and where to throw the ball and things like that. Hit and
run or stealing bases and things like that.
Interviewer: “What did you do in the off season? You played in the summer and
then what?” 21:06
I was lucky, I went back to French Barr as a comptometer operator in the winter. Other
people had to find a new job, but I didn’t.
Interviewer: “So, they held your job for you basically and you could go back and do
it?”
Yes, but I always took a month off after the season and then went back to work.
Interviewer: “Why did you stop playing ball?”
I was traded to Peoria and I didn’t want to go and they said my choice was to either go or
quit, so I quit.
11
�Interviewer: “Once you quit what did you do?”
I worked at Bendix Products as a comptometer and eventually I went to college and
became a teacher.
Interviewer: “Where did you go to college?”
Illinois State and I was thirty-six years old when I graduated.
Interviewer: “What did you get your degree in?”
What else, phys ed
Interviewer: “There you go… and what did you do with that degree once you had
it?”
I taught grades three through eight at Miesel School in South Bend and I was there was
twenty-seven years and then I retired. 22:17
Interviewer: “Now, did the people know that you were a baseball player?”
No, we never talked about it until the movie came out. They wouldn’t have believed us.
Interviewer: “So, the people in South Bend didn’t necessarily even remember that
there was a team?”
They didn’t even know we played until the movie came out.
Interviewer: “Now, were you involved with the league organization before that?”
No, not really, do you mean our league? No, P.K. Wrigley did all that organizing.
Interviewer: “No, I meant the organization of the players, the one that’s now—
we’re having the reunion of/”
Do you mean the AAGPBL?
Interviewer: “Yes”
No, I wasn’t involved in that.
12
�Interviewer: “Did you know about making the movie when they started it, did you
get involved in that?”
We went down and watched them make the movie in Evansville. 23:10
Interviewer: “So, you must have had enough of a connection that they could invite
you. Did they go and research and find the players or what did they do?”
No, we just went down on our own and watched.
Interviewer: “OK”
They hired Karen Kunkel to kind of help them out with the movie and latter on I think,
Pepper Paire was down there too. We just went down as spectators.
Interviewer: “OK”
Very interesting how they faked on a lot of stuff
Interviewer: “Which parts of the movie do you think were the most authentic or
realistic?”
The base running I guess, the batting was all faked out. They had a machine behind
home plate and the batter would swing and the machine would throw the ball out in the
outfield.
Interviewer: “So, you swung the bat better than Madonna did then?”
Yes, but she tried. 24:06
Interviewer: “Which pieces of the movie struck you as being the most really out of
character from what really went on or the most Hollywoodish?”
When they showed the chaperone. She was horrible, that chaperone in the movie, but the
games, actually, were pretty authentic. They made it look authentic anyway and they did
a good job. It put us on the map, really..
13
�Interviewer: “When you were playing, did you think that you were doing
something really distinctive or unusual?”
Not really, until later on.
Interviewer: “You were just playing ball, so that was a good idea.”
We were having fun and getting paid to play a game. It was a very unusual league for
that time.
Interviewer: “I can’t think of anything else like that and that could have been
equivalent, you had women athletes, but—“ 25:10
Not team sports, not professional team sports.
Interviewer: “Golf and tennis, but not a whole lot else.”
Mostly golf with Babe Zaharias at that time I think and Patty—what was that golfers
name, Patty Burg?
Interviewer: “As we kind of got into the seventies and eighties etc. and had Title IX
come in, you had a lot of efforts to actually get women involved in sports—“
That was real good, that Title Nine and women got scholarships and everything and we
had nothing before that really.
Interviewer: “Have you gotten much of a chance to meet or talk to the women
athletes of the younger generation? Ones who play softball now or college sports?”
Not really, some of the ball players did, but I didn’t really do that.
Interviewer: “If you look at it now, how do you think your experience in the league
affected you? What did you take out of that?”
It changed everybody’s life I think; I met a lot of people, bankers, lawyers, doctors, plus
players for all over Cuba, the USA and Canada. 26:27
14
�Interviewer: “Now, did you get down to Cuba for the spring training they did
there?”
Yes, my first flight
Interviewer: “What was that like? What do you remember about that?”
It was wild; we went to the ballpark in a taxicab. They didn’t have traffic lights and
when you got to a corner whoever beeped their horn first had the right away and we
didn’t have any water to drink, it was always Coca Cola. We had our practices at the
stadium out there and the Brooklyn Dodgers were there at the same time in a different
park and they came to watch us play and not them.
Interviewer: “So, why were people watching you and not the Dodgers?”
Women in skirts playing ball
Interviewer: “So people came to watch you play and how did the fans in Puerto
Rico [Cuba] behave?” 27:23
They were wild and we weren’t allowed to walk down the streets alone, we had to go in
groups. They had real good cocoanut ice cream and fresh pineapple they sold on the
streets. It was a real experience and this one man that made movie shorts, I can’t think of
his name, walking down the stairway of the Havana University, all the teams and I have a
snapshot of that, but he made a movie shorts and it got lost somehow and I still can’t
think of his name. He was very popular at that time, making shorts.
Interviewer: “Were these like newsreel movie?”
Yes, newsreel things
Interviewer: “Now, what year did you do that?”
1947 in Cuba
15
�Interviewer: “Of course for the first year for 1943 you went to Wrigley Field and
everybody got together there?”
We practiced in South Bend I think and we went down to Opa-Locka, Florida one year at
an old naval station I think it was. 28:30
Interviewer: “What was that experience like?”
We swam in the swimming pool and had a good time when we weren’t practicing. It was
nice and I liked it, but Pascagoula was roach heaven. The roaches were that big and got
in our suitcases and everything.
Interviewer: “Was that a different year at Pascagoula?’
Yes, and I would like to forget that year. We were in the army barracks and it was
horrible and hot and filthy.
Interviewer: “When you went to those places did you play games that people would
come and attend or were you just working out?” 29:10
We would get two teams together and after practice we would travel throughout the south
and shared a bus for about a week and played every night and travel all day and play the
next night with no days off. Then we would fly back to South Bend
Interviewer: “What kind of response did you get when you were doing that kind of
barnstorming?”
Oh, they loved us and we had real good attendance there.
Interviewer: “Would you sometimes recruit players as you went through that
way?”
I guess so, once in a while, that’s how we got the Cubans.
16
�Interviewer: “Some of the players we have talked to, like Sue Kidd was from
Arkansas and that kind of thing. You come through and they sign on and join them
and just go on along. Were the audiences all white when you were in the south or
did you play for black audiences too?” 30:02
I think they were all white. We were in Charlotte, was it South Carolina?
Interviewer: “North Carolina has the large town of Charlotte.”
Anyway, we had a room that had these large bowls with a pitcher of water; an old hotel
and you would take a bath in the bowl. I remember that, I don’t know why, but we
stayed in nice hotels really most of the time. Tampa Terrace, I have some old postcards
from some of them.
Interviewer: “When you were playing against the teams in the league, were there
certain towns you liked to go to better than others?”
In the league, I didn’t like Peoria, it was so hot and I didn’t like the hotel there. Kenosha,
there was a nice hotel there, it was a small town and Racine was nice. Peoria is the place
I didn’t like because it was so hot there and there was no place to eat there that was good.
31:03 We played in Racine and we went to this bar to get something to eat after the
game and there was a piano player there and a singer and it was Patti Page.
Interviewer: “Well, that’s pretty good.”
We asked if we could request a song and she was very nice. That was before she became
popular and that was quite an experience meeting her then. 31:30
Interviewer: “Once the movie came out and the league got more attention, have you
done anything in terms of helping with museums or anything like that?”
17
�We went down to the museum in South Bend and identified hundreds of pictures for the
museum.
Interviewer: “All right, you’re also involved with a bigger museum than that. Who
has your uniform?”
The Smithsonian. Iin 1983 I donated my uniform to the Smithsonian. It had been in
Japan and all over the U.S for two years on its tour.
Interviewer: “How did you wind up giving your uniform to the Smithsonian?”
One of the players said they wanted our uniforms and I said, “I’ve got one down in the
cellar”, and it was all rumpled up and dirty, so I cleaned it up and ironed it real nice and
put it on this statue. They had a nice display of my uniform with my picture there. 32:30
Interviewer: “All right, and did they get anymore of your stuff?”
My hat and my cap, my socks, my belt and my glove.
Interviewer: “At the time you were donating that stuff, did you think much of it or
did you think that if they wanted it that was fine?”
They might as well have it, it’s down in my basement and somebody else can see it there
at the Smithsonian.
Interviewer: “You didn’t know it was that important yet?”
No, not really. They were glad they got it and I got a lot of letters thanking me.
Interviewer: “Did you get to go there and see them present it?”
This Audi automobile club had a big todo about the traveling display and they had this
big rotunda and the ice skater Nancy Kerrigan was there and Bill Russell and they had
these old-fashioned popcorn machines and they had cotton candy and free drinks and free
18
�food. It was really an experience and it was the grand opening of the display that was
going to be traveling for two years and sponsored by Audi. 33:36
Interviewer: “Now, if you think back to your playing days and things, are there
any individual events or memories or things that stand out in your mind that you
haven’t brought up here yet?”
Yes, when I was batting in Rockford, I hit a foul ball that came up and hit me in the face
and I landed flat on my back on home plate. Another time I was going to run down first
base and I stepped on that liquid whitewash and fell down.
Interviewer: “What was the liquid whitewash from, or was that what they painted
the lines with?”
They painted the lines with that liquid stuff and if you stepped on that it was slippery and
I happened to step on it after I hit the ball—one step and down. 34:21
Interviewer: “Did they have you wearing cleats?”
We had regular steel spikes and they were long ones, not the short ones like softball, they
were long.
Interviewer: “But that didn’t stop the whitewash from tripping you up?”
No, not me
Interviewer: “All,right, there were a lot of experiences there and thank you for
coming in and telling them to us.
Thank you for having me. 34:44
19
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Text
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eng
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2017-10-02
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
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RHC-58_BJochum
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Jochum, Betsy (Interview transcript and video), 2010
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Jochum, Betsy
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Betsy Jochum was born in Cincinnati, Ohio, in 1921. She grew up playing ball with neighborhood kids, and was playing in a local women's softball league in 1943 when she was recruited to play in the All American league during its first season. She played until 1948 with the South Bend Blue Sox, and went on the league's spring training trip to Cuba. She later became a physical education teacher, and donated her glove and uniform to the Smithsonian.
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Indiana
Women
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2010-08-04
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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video/mp4
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eded5ef8e5516cd446dddcc17e7b89ed.m4v
278592a3e572a9a24588c53c16982846
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fd499bc71424407048b75bd0272a4666.pdf
11adbdca6a3ad3ecd7e37e0c6272cf29
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
ANN PETROVIC, Infield Shortstop
Women in Baseball
Born: November 17, 1928 Aurora, Indiana
Resides: Tucson, Arizona
Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 7, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, October 4, 2010
Interviewer: “Now Ann, can you start by giving us a little bit of background on
yourself?”
I was born and raised in Aurora, Indiana. There were about five thousand people and I
was the youngest of nine children. I had five brothers, and now you know where I got
started in baseball, and three sisters. That’s how I got started in baseball.
Interviewer: “In what year were you born?”
I was born on November 17, 1928.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?”
My father worked at a chair factory, he was a bandsawer and he sawed legs and arms and
stuff for chairs and that’s what we did for a living.
Interviewer: “So, did he keep that job through the depression?”
He did. He was about fourteen years old when he started and he worked until he was
about seventy-eight years old.
Interviewer: “What kind of school did you go to?” 1:03
Well, I went to school; I went like anyone else you now, elementary and junior high, then
high school.
Interviewer: “When did you start playing sports?”
1
�I had five brothers of course and when I was real little we lived on a farm and I kind of
hung around with my brothers a lot and whenever they would go play ball-- of course
they were on any team—if anyone would give them a uniform they would play. They
were on church league, industrial leagues or anything. As far as I can remember, I used
to tag them around to the ball parks and everything and every time they would, I grew up
eventually, put me into the field and let me play with them and as soon as one of them
would go out and—second base, they would go out and take batting practice, I would
take their position. 2:04 I kept going with them every year and playing at home with
them and in the winter time, of course, the snow was up over the house, so we would
move furniture and then we would play ball in the house from the living room to the
dining room. I can remember one brother, he was fantastic and the Cincinnati Reds
wanted him, but he got injured in World War II and he’s the one that taught me
everything. He played shortstop and of course that’s what I played. We played all winter
because we just played in the house and that’s all we had in those days. If you had a mitt
and you had a ball, you went out and played ball, but I had to play with the boys because
the girls couldn’t catch me you know. They would say, “don’t play with “Shorty Meyer”
she’s nothing but a tomboy”. In those days no one would play with me and of course I
couldn’t play with the girls anyway. My name was not good and it wasn’t exactly right
for a girl to go out and play ball in those days, so that’s how I got started, with my
brother. 3:03
Interviewer: “When you were in junior high and high school did you have any
chance to play organized sports?”
2
�Yes, I was with sports all through and in senior high they even had a parade and they
picked out the best athletes, a girl and a boy, and I was the best of the girls and they had a
big parade and this was a town of five thousand people and everyone knew what you
were doing almost—they knew when I was going to All American to try out and
everything, so they had a parade for us and I was the athlete of the whole school.
Interviewer: “How old were you when you tried out for the All American?”
Ok, when I tried out for the All American I was only fifteen years old. The way I got into
the All American is my father read in the Cincinnati Inquirer that Betsy Jochum was
going to go and play in the Girls All American Baseball and all these fifteen years I had
been playing with my brothers and everything and I said, “there must be a team that I can
get on somewhere in this place”, and he said, “well, I’ll go up and talk to her parents and
see where she went”. I said, “ok”, so he went up and talked to Betsy Jochum and in those
days it wasn’t easy to go from one place to another hardly. 4:20 Cincinnati was about
thirty-five miles from us, we lived in Aurora, Indiana right on the Ohio River, so he went
up there, my father did, and he got the address of the people, so they said, “you bring her
up, we’re going to try out at Peru and La Salle, Illinois”. They had six ball parks I think
and they said to go up there and try out, so I went up there after we got the address and
they said to come on up, so I went up there and the first day I was so nervous I couldn’t
even hardly catch the ball. All these girls and all this excitement and everything, so my
father said, “we’re going home tomorrow”, and I said, “oh no, I gotta meet all those
people that thought I was going to make it and everything?” He said, “yup, the way you
played today you won’t even sigh a contract or anything”, so I said, “ok, give me one
more day”, so I went the next day and I said, “over on first base is my brother Wally,
3
�second base is my brother----“, and I went on and I was playing with my brothers all this
time, so I didn’t even look at the girls and man, when that ball was hit to me I threw it
over to first and went all around there, so that night I signed the contract. 5:32 I sort of
relaxed and played the way I was supposed to play, so anyway, that’s how I made it.
Interviewer: “And your father thought that was a good idea?”
Yes, he sure did and he was there after I signed the contract. I have a picture of my father
standing there beside me and then he asked if I was going to be in good hands and the
manager said, “yes, she’ll be in good hand and we’ll take care of her”. I had never been
away from home for fifteen years and my mother cried when I left, but anyway a couple
of nice All Americans took me in, Faye Dancer and Pepper Beare, I was on their team
and I went right to Minneapolis. Anyway, they took me in. The chaperones; they help
you if you’re homesick or anything like that, that’s their job. 6:20 I got over it after a
while and I spent a whole year with the All American.
Interviewer: “Now, did you join them after their spring training or were you part
of that?”
After spring training, and then they put you on a team, after I tried out and everything.
Interviewer: “You tried out, but did you go to a spring training with the whole
league there or did you just go to join a team?”
Well, the whole league was there.
Interviewer: “I think in 1944—did they use Wrigley Field that year?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Ok”
4
�After—after we played ball, I went back to school, in the wintertime. We weren’t in the
playoffs or anything. That was in September.
Interviewer: “I was just trying to follow the sequence of events. So did you go to
Chicago to try out or did you first go someplace else?” 7:15
After I got through they told me, at the end of the season or almost to the end, they asked
me to go Chicago with the National League because they need players over there, so then
I went to Chicago and it was the same year, at the end of the year almost, in September,
and they told me to go over there and see them. I went over there and tried out over there
and I made it, but it was just about at the end of the year.
Interviewer: “I was still talking about the beginning of the season.”
The beginning of the season when I went to Peru and La Salle, Illinois—then what they
do after that is put you on a team and that’s when they sent me to Minneapolis. 7:59
Interviewer: “Ok, all the way to Minneapolis.”
After Minneapolis they sent me to Kenosha. I was traded for Liz Mahon, so I went to
Kenosha and played. One or the other, but Minneapolis only lasted one year.
Interviewer: “When you joined the league, did they give you a list of all the rules
and regulations and how you were supposed to behave and the way you were
supposed to dress?”
Oh yes, you had to be in at ten o’clock and when you’re in your own home town, of
course, you’re always with a family and there’s always two of you. They never go in
with one person, so they did put me with a roommate and get me a place to stay in the
town where we stayed, like in Minneapolis or Kenosha. 8:50
Interviewer: “Did they have a dress code that you had to follow?”
5
�Oh yes and you’ve heard this a hundred times, you had to wear a skirt. You could wear
shorts inside when nobody saw you, but you had to wear that skirt and dress up when you
would go outside. Both of us never smoked, but you couldn’t smoke or anything like that
and you had to dress up when you went out into public, and they had the charm school.
When they had the charm school they looked at me and they picked me out of that whole
bunch and used me as an example. I just came up and I wasn’t the type to--I was a
tomboy anyway--dress up anyway, and they would say “Ann you come up here, we’re
going to use you”, so they fixed my hair and fixed me all up and I was a little
embarrassed. I was only fifteen you know, and never been—anyway, they used me as an
example when they had the charm school. 9:42 They would teach you how to walk and
how to sit and when you go to someone’s home they wanted you to be ladies--to be ladies
and play like men, that’s what they wanted me to do, so that’s what I did.
Interviewer: ‘So, you actually got the charm school experience, because a lot of the
players that joined later didn’t have that, but you were still early enough that they
were still doing it.”
It was a good thing and to this day I remember the things they told me and I never forgot
it. How to sit, how to do—and it’s good, some of the education I never had in my life
being on the farm you know.
Interviewer: “Now, were you a starting shortstop? Did you get to play regularly
with the team?”
No, when I started that was a problem, they had too--enough players in those leagues and
they told me to go out there to Chicago and play and get more experience and then you
can come back to the all American. Well, I got more experience and I liked it a lot and I
6
�was playing all the time, so after that I said, “no, I don’t want to go back”. I was familiar
with the team and the league and all the people and Charlie Bidwell was good to me.
10:56 I played for the Bluebirds, Eddie Kolski was good to me and all of them, so I said,
“no, I’m going to stay up here”. They needed players in the All American—see, they
went from underhand and sidearm to overhand and a lot of girls came up to the National
League because they didn’t want to pitch overhand and we had a lot of girls up there. I
said, “hey this is great for me and I’m playing all the time, so I’m staying here”. I made a
good name for myself up there. 11:22
Interviewer: “Ok, you did get to play in some of the games with the All American?”
Oh yes, I was backing up Pepper Beare in shortstop when I was playing in Minneapolis
and when she got hurt I went in, yes I did.
Interviewer: “In Kenosha did you get to play?”
Yes, the same thing there in Kenosha. I didn’t go in all the time as a regular player, but I
used to go in when anybody would get hurt or when they were way ahead and they
wanted to see what I could do and things like that, but I did get to play quite often.
Interviewer: “Were you a good hitter?”
I always betted first or second, I was fast because I always ran from my dad all the time
because I got in trouble on the farm and I had a lot of speed. I slid a lot and I got a lot of
strawberries. Batting, my brothers and them, they never did give me much help because
when we took position I took the infield and they never let me bat. They would go in for
game practice and they never let me bat. I warmed up my brother when one pitched and I
caught a lot and did a lot of infield, but they never let me bat much, so I had to learn that
7
�when I was on the All American. 12:33 That’s the position I was in. Defense, but not
offense, but they were working on it.
Interviewer: “When you were playing for Minneapolis, did you have some long
road trips?”
Did we have long road trips? Well, playing for Minneapolis, I can remember this one—
we were getting on this train, not the bus, the train, and it was a troop train, I’ll never
forget it. Fifteen girls got on that train with these servicemen and it was something else.
I was fifteen years old, so I just got in a corner and watched what was going on. The
guys were wanting you to write to them and asking when they go overseas and stuff like
that. They were giving out addresses and talking to you and stuff, but it was some
experience and I really enjoyed that. That’s the only thing I can remember that really
happened when we were traveling, but otherwise we went on the bus. 13:28
Interviewer: “Did it take a long time to get from Minneapolis to the other places?”
No, from this day I don’t remember, but all of them were pretty much close together the
year I went in 1944. We didn’t have to travel too much, but I can remember going on the
busses and stuff from one place to the other, so it was interesting anyway.
Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about how the softball leagues in Chicago
worked.”
Oh, in Chicago? In Chicago you only played ball at night and I think you had eight to ten
teams in Chicago and I worked at the Edgewater Beach Hotel during the day. Now this is
exciting because I worked at the reservation office. Now, when the ball players came in
at the Edgewater Beach Hotel, we’re talking about the National League, they came in and
they only played in the daytime because there were no lights at Wrigley Field, so I would
8
�meet them at the door because I knew they were coming in. 14:29 I met Mel Ott and
Harry “The Hat” Walker and all those guys you know, and I was at the door and I met
them and I told them who I was and that I was playing ball. They wanted to come out
and see me play ball because they had nothing to do at night and here I was working
during the day, so I set them up and they took a cab out to watch me play ball and the
first time they watched me they said, “hey come over here. The next time you come to
the hotel I want to show you how to bat”, so they got a bat out and they started showing
me how to stand and bat and they were trying to help me and everything, but it was
exciting and I met the whole team when they came in and had a lot of pictures taken and
autographs and I have several balls from them that are very valuable to me today. I got to
know them well and that was exciting. Whenever they would come into the hotel, and I
knew when they were coming because I was making their reservations, so it was great.
15:24
Interviewer: “So you had a day job, but then did they also pay you to play the ball
games at night?”
Oh yeah, we got paid just like we would in All American. The National League paid the
same and I got the same amount. They made sure that where you were working, that it
was a good place and they were the ones that helped you get the job. There were certain
jobs they didn’t want you to do because it was too hard on you and you couldn’t play
ball. Here I was just sitting at a desk and I didn’t have to use up much energy, so they
placed you where and in jobs so you could still play ball. You had the day free, but you
would go out and play at night, so it was no problem with me to do that.
9
�Interviewer: “When you played for the All American and you had gone in at
fifteen, you weren’t done with high school yet.” 16:27
No, I played all through high school and I was in the National League, but I played in the
summer, then when we had playoffs that would run into September and school was still
going on, I went ahead and finished up the playoffs and then when I went back to school
they let me make that up. They were nice enough to say, “hey you’re two weeks late or
three weeks late”, and they helped me to make it up so I would catch up with the other
students in the high school. I did graduate from high school because of their help and
everything, so I went right through. I was the only one, oh there were two, of nine that
graduated in my family and I was one of them.
Interviewer: “When you were playing in Chicago, where did you live?”
I lived—when I worked for Edgewater Beach they had a an apartment for employees and
I lived there and before that, before I got into Edgewater Beach, we had an apartment and
my father said, “hey, since she’s not traveling, I’m going to send your two sisters”, and
two of my sisters came out to Chicago to live with me. 17:38 She said, “I want you to
take care of Shorty”, that’s what they called me at home, she said, “I want you to take
care of her, so I’m sending you guys out to stay there”, so they got a job, and it was
during the war of course, in an airplane factory, both of them did, and it wasn’t hard to
get a job in Chicago in those days. I went ahead and worked at Edgewater and they
worked at the plane company and they took care of me and when I had to go to the
ballpark I always took the El and I rode place to place around Chicago on the El by
myself at night and you can’t do that today. 18:23
Interviewer: “You can in a lot of Chicago, not all of it”.
10
�Anyway, that’s what I did.
Interviewer: “How long did you play in Chicago?”
I played in Chicago—I played pro ball until 1950. I went to college after high school and
the first year in college, and of course that college that I went to, the same problem I had
all year, girls aren’t supposed to play with boys. I was called into the president’s office
because I was playing ball with a boy on campus. Do you believe that? I was passing
ball with a boy on campus, so they called me into the president’s office and they said,
“we are not allowed to do that here”. It was at Nyack College in Nyack, New York, and I
said, “well, if I can’t keep up in the wintertime because of all the snow and everything,
and all the girls in Florida and California and Phoenix, Arizona and places are playing
year around and they go back to spring training and they’re all in shape and here I am in
snow country and I gotta keep in shape if I want’ a do anything and stay in the league
with the rest of them. I wouldn’t have enough money to come back here next year if I
didn’t make the team.” 19:45 He said, “ok, we’ll change the rules”, so I got to play ball
with the boys and beside that I joined the Y to keep up on the exercise in Nyack, New
York where the college was. I went down there and worked out myself a lot in between,
but when it got warmer I played outside with the boys. So that’s the story on that one.
Interviewer: “All right, then what did you get your degree in at college?”
In college, Christian education and I wanted to be a physical education teacher, then I
met this nice man and went two years to college, three—I know I had one more year to
go and I went ahead and he was one year behind me, so I went to work and helped put
him through and I decided to get married and that was something too because we
announced our engagement and they said, “freshmen aren’t supposed to get married”,
11
�because they only had three years in this college and you had to go three and I went two
years. He said, “I’m not the one that’s announcing it, she’s announcing it and she’s a
sophomore”, so it was all right and they changed the rules on that one too. 20:57 I went
to work and I worked at Lederle’s’in Pearl River, New York and I made Oramycin
capsules in those years and I helped put him through college, so he got to finish.
Interviewer: “What did you do after that?”
After we went to Nyack, we settled down in a town, after he graduated, in 1952 we
settled down in Ashland, Ohio. Now, Ashland is about 20,000 people between Cleveland
and Columbus. He was born in Mansfield and he was a professional photographer, so he
got a job there in Ashland and we settled down and we bought a home and we stayed
there and raised two children, two boys, and we lived there from 1952 until 1978 and
then we moved to Tucson, Arizona in 1978 and that’s where we live now. 22:02
Interviewer: “I guess, while you were playing and going off to college and after you
finished playing, did the people around you know that you had been a professional
athlete?”
No, they didn’t believe me. My boy, when he went to school, he said, “my mom was a
professional ball player”, they had show and tell and he was in the first or second graded
I thing, and he said, “my dad is a professional photographer”, and he gets up and they
didn’t believe his mom was a professional ball player and I would tell the neighbors, “I
used to play pro ball” and they would say, “oh yeah, my mom was a garbage collector”,
and they didn’t believe it., so that’s what we went through all these years until the movie
came out in 1992 and that was different now. They called me up two or three times in
Ashland, Ohio, they wanted me to come back, so this October the 9th, I go back to
12
�Ashland, Ohio and I will be in the Sports Hall of Fame this year. 23:06 They all believed
me after the movie came out and now they want me in the hall of fame, so that’s quite an
honor.
Interviewer: “Were you involved at all in any of the events surrounding the
movie?”
Around the National, two blocks from the biggest park, they had softball tournaments,
industrial, in Ashland, Ohio where I was, they were famous for softball and they had it
from all over the United States coming there and I’d go down to the ball park and watch
them all the time and meet the players that come in and everything and you didn’t have to
pay or anything. Of course some weekends when they had professional teams come in I
did pay, but I went down there and got to meet them and I told them I played bal and
stuff. I went out and passed and at that time I could still play pretty good. Remember, I
quit during my prime time and I was only twenty-one years old when I quit in 1950, so I
could still play ball. I also played for an industrial league. I got a job in Ashland and
they made leather jackets, it was called Kesko and they said, “hey Ann, you played ball,
you can play ball for me”, and I said, “ok, I’ll come out”, so they put me on first base.
24:15 It was the first night, this is an industrial league, and I was playing third base and
the ball was hit to me and the girl was going into home and I threw that ball into home
and it hit her chest, it hit the ground and they called 911, I’d of liked a killed her, so that
was the end of me playing ball for the industrial league. These were like the housewives
you know and I didn’t know it, I just went in there and did my thing and I couldn’t play
there anymore. 24:40
Interviewer: “Did you ever do any coaching?”
13
�Yes I did, they wanted me to coach the girls. I went down at the park where they played
and helped with them once and a while, but I didn’t do much because I didn’t have much
patience, but I told them what I knew and everything, and the Y in Ashland, I went for
volleyball in the wintertime and basketball, so I played volleyball and I traveled all over
Ohio and we got for that Y and I don’t know how many, but I played like a pro once and
I hate to lose and these were a bunch of housewives and this girl beside me couldn’t hit it
too good, so I would get in front of her and hit the ball, and I got in a lot of trouble doing
that you know because once a pro always a pro. You play so hard and I don’t care what I
do, I play—I put everything in it and my name got to be mud after a while, but I stuck
with it. They got to know me and I was pretty good, so they hung onto me because I
helped the team. 25:48 I enjoyed traveling and playing with the women. We did that
from 1963 all the way until I left in 1978. I traveled all over in the wintertime.
Interviewer: “You were pretty constantly active in sports the whole time, so leaving
a professional league didn’t stop you, you kind of just kept going and in various
places and in college you kind of made them do it your way.”
Exactly, mom could never find me, I had a bat and a ball and I was in the neighborhood
and anybody would catch me, they would pick up a team, the boys, I was right there. We
had to play in the street a lot of the time because they didn’t have ball fields or anything
and every time we hit the ball and a car came by we had to get off the street, this is home
plate and we would get off the street right in the middle of a game and we had to move
over and let the car go by and then we would go back out in the street you know. 26:37
We played in the street a lot of times and you might have one or two cars go by. They
didn’t have many, but that’s what I did. As soon as I would get up in the morning as a
14
�kid, I was all ready to go out and play ball. My mom had to send my sisters out there to
find out what street we were playing on and what team I was on , but I loved it so much
that and that was the only way I could play and I just went out every day to see who I
could play with.
Interviewer: “When they made the movie, A League of Their Own, they tried to get
together a bunch of the former players and they were involved in different events
connected with the movie. Were you a part of any of that?”
When they made the movie I signed up to go to Evansville, Indiana where they were for
their spring training, because I’m from Indiana. Anything in Indiana, like I left all my
stuff in South Bend, Indiana for the historical society because I’m from Indiana and I’m
proud of that. 27:36 I signed up to go, but at the time I was working at, it was like
Kroger’s, I worked fifteen years in Tucson, Arizona, it was called Alpha Beta and later it
was called Abco and I worked at that store, it was like Kroger like I say and a grocery
store it was and I was working—I started as a courtesy clerk and they were right across
the street from where I was living and I would go over there every day and say, “hey, can
I get a job?” They would say that they didn’t have anything and I said, “well, I’ll even
scrub the floors”, and I just wanted to get in because I knew what I could do. One day
after—I would say almost a year I tried to get in there and they said, “hey Ann, I’m
getting tired of looking at you, I’ll give you a job as a courtesy clerk, so I said, “ok, I’ll
take it, what is it?” I didn’t even know what it was. I knew what a bagger was, but I
didn’t know what a courtesy clerk was, so he said, “you just take this uniform and get
ready and come over tomorrow and you’ll be a courtesy clerk and I’ll teach you what to
do”. 28:38 I said, “ok, I just live across the street”, so I got this nice uniform and I put it
15
�on and I went over there and he said, “you’re going to be bagging these groceries you
know and you’re going to be pushing those carts”, and I was about fifty years old at that
time and I was the oldest bagger in the state of Arizona, so I didn’t care and they had all
these teenagers and this is something else, so I went over there and I got to learn how to
bad, they taught me how to bag and stuff and I was going so fast they said, “that lady
must be on dope”, because they never saw anybody move like that and the teenagers were
just messing around and all they wanted was the money and they didn’t want to work and
I was working. I said to the manager, “I’d like forty-eight hours”, and he said, “we don’t
give courtesy clerks forty-eight hours, but I watched you work and I’ll call up the office
in California and I’ll see if I can get you forty-eight hours”, so he called up after a couple
of weeks or so and he said, “I got permission and you can work forty-eight hours a
week”, so I said, “ok”, so that’s what I did, forty-eight hours and I worked there for
fifteen years. 29:47 I got so I even taught courtesy clerks eight years and like I say, I
worked there fifteen years and I really enjoyed it. Moving fast was just the way I was
brought up. I move fast all the time, but they weren’t use to that because people there
don’t work like that and I was because of being so active getting those carts. I would go
out and get maybe eight or ten at a time and these people would bring in four or five you
know. He liked the way I worked, so I got to work forty-eight hours.
Interviewer: “Now we got into this subject when I asked you about going to
Evansville or you signed up to go to Evansville?”
I signed up to go to Evansville and my husband had open-heart surgery at the time and I
didn’t get there. I was working at the store, that’s why I got that store, so I stayed there,
16
�but I wanted to go to be in the movie, but I didn’t make it. 30:46 At the end of the
movie and stuff.
Interviewer: “Now, since you only played with the all Americans for one year, how
did that combination of playing in the all American and then playing in the Chicago
League, what effect did that have on you?”
Well, because I was so young, I was still learning and a lot of those girls that came up
there, they had been playing for a few years and I was working on experience and I
wanted to get up there where the rest of them were you know and I wanted to stay in the
league for along time, as long as I could and that was the thing I was working on. The
only way you get experience is to play and I was sitting on the ---and that’s what the
manager told me, “Ann you’re good, but you need more experience”, so you’ll get it at
Chicago and I did. That’s what I liked and I stayed there and I got to know everyone and
everyone knew me and that’s why I decided to stay in Chicago when they wanted me
back. I said, “no, I’m going to stay here”, so that’s why, experience is what I was
working for at that time.
Interviewer: “You’re playing professional sports as a woman fairly early on, the
late forties and early fifties, did you see yourself as any kind of pioneer or didn’t you
think about that?”
I didn’t think about that, I went year to year, I had fun and I enjoyed it. Shorty Decker
and me and in Chicago on the Queens, we had more double plays than anyone in the
whole league and she took short stop and I took second because she was a little better and
short stop and she was older and I could play second and I could play third. Finally the
girl on third got to be forty some years old they put me on third and I almost got it down
17
�my throat between short stop and third, but I learned when to come in and when to go
back and I ended up playing third at that time. 32:51
Interviewer: “It makes for an interesting story and a little bit different one, so I
would just like to thank you for coming in and telling it.”
I enjoyed it very much and thank you very much.
18
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_APetrovic
Title
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Petrovic, Ann (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
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Petrovic, Ann
Description
An account of the resource
Ann Petrovic was born in Aurora, Indiana, in 1928. She grew up playing ball with her brothers and played on different girls' teams in school. When she was fifteen, she heard about tryouts for the All American Girls Professional Baseball League being held in Illinois, tried out and was assigned to a team in Minneapolis which soon moved to Kenosha. After playing in the league's first season, she signed with a professional softball team in Chicago, where she played until 1950.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5fc7576f3fb5e0a71ab05c0f3063f034.m4v
379449f22faeb4adf6c42ee5e20bfc5c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e28077674b090e59d908f0d40babe7ff.pdf
9190ccb5a6f681870a51c9ca30bccb01
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
AUDREY HAINE DANIELS, Pitcher
Women in Baseball
Born: Winnipeg, Canada May 5, 1927
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit,
Michigan at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, November 16, 2010
Interviewer: “Audrey, let’s start with your full name and where and when were you
born?”
My maiden name is Audrey May Haine. I was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada on
May 5, 1927. No, May 9th, I told you I would make some mistakes, meant to say 5/9/27.
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
I suppose it was not much different than any of the others at that time. I had a very good
childhood, it was a—my father really wasn’t there most of the time and when he was he
just upset the whole thing, do you know what I mean? We had kind of a bumpy road
there for a while, but we got out and played. We played baseball around the street with
the other kids. 1:28
Interviewer: “Where did you grow up? Was it on land or in the city?”
It was in the city of Winnipeg.
Interviewer: “So, did you live in an apartment?”
We had a house.
Interviewer: “All right, and then you went to school, did you walk to school?”
Yes we walked to school; we weren’t too far from school.
Interviewer: “All right, how did you get involved with playing baseball?”
1
�With the kids in the street, I mean we always played baseball. We didn’t have to stop too
often to let cars go by because where I lived in those days there weren’t too many cars.
The doctor went by occasionally and we didn’t really have a good bat or a good balls.
Our balls were usually half ripped, but I don’t think it ever bothered us, we were out there
playing and had a great time.
Interviewer: “It was neighborhood kids? Did you ever play kids in other
neighborhoods? 2:30
No
Interviewer: “So it was just pretty much by yourselves. How was school for you?
Did you like school?”
Interviewer: Oh, I liked school very much.
Interviewer: “You got into high school I take it?”
Yes I did
Interviewer: “Did you have any idea what you wanted to do at that stage of your
life?”
I wanted to be a nurse.
Interviewer: “How did the opportunity to become a baseball player come along?”
I knew I had no opportunity to be a nurse for sure, and baseball was just something that I
grew up with. I didn’t just say, “I want to be a baseball player”, I just grew up with it and
I played for a team called the St. Anthony Brown Birds when I was fifteen or something
like that and I was a pretty good pitcher.
Interviewer: “Now, is this softball or baseball?”
2
�Softball, so I moved up to the next bracket and I played with them for a year and had a
very good year.
Interviewer: “Now, this is just for fun and you’re not getting paid or anything like
that?”
No, absolutely not, this is just teams that were put together and you had managers and
everything that went with it, uniforms. 3:48
Interviewer: “All girls?”
Yes, all girls
Interviewer: “When did you first hear about the professional league?”
Well, I got a call from a girl who played in the league the first year and her name was
Dotty Hunter, she called and she said that a scout had seen me play and wanted her to get
in touch with me and tell me all about the league and see if I would be interested.
Interviewer: “Had you heard about it before?”
No, I had never heard about the league before, so I invited Dotty over to my home and
she told us, my mother and myself and my sister probably, all about the league and that it
was run on very high standards and that the players lived in private homes with good
families and that we got paid for playing and when on the road we had real money and
stayed in the best hotels. So, that sounded pretty good to me 4:46
Interviewer: “What was your mother’s reaction?”
Well, she didn’t react, and she certainly didn’t say, “no, you’re not doing that”, no she
didn’t, she always let us have opportunities when they came up.
Interviewer: “How old were you at that time?”
Fifteen
3
�Interviewer: “So, they were offering you to play in the league at fifteen?”
I was fifteen when I got my contract and I turned sixteen that following summer and then
when I played and got to leave, I had just turned seventeen..
Interviewer: “What was your first experience? Did you go for tryouts?”
I never went to tryouts, and being young; I assumed I was on the team.
Interviewer: “Wow! Where did you go, to Peoria?” 5:46
First of all Dottie Hunter came and explained the whole thing to my mother and me
finally said I could go. I had never been more than one hundred miles from home or
ordered or eaten a meal out, so I was just about as green as the grass we were going to
play on, you know. I had never had any experience being away, so it was a pretty
exciting and nerve-wracking experience for me to join the other players from western
Canada and get on the train in Winnipeg and head for Chicago. 6:48
Interviewer: “You had never been on a train before?”
No, I hadn’t
Interviewer: “How was the trip?”
Well, it was nerve-wracking for me you know, you want to do the right thing and
everything is new to you and I don’t think I slept much that first night on that train and
the first sun-up I looked out and saw the wonderful rolling hills of Wisconsin go by and it
is a memory etched in my mind forever, those wonderful rolling hills and green grass.
Everything I did-- I was a little bit nervous about everything and when we had breakfast
on the train I just didn’t even know what to order because I had never been out. Seeing
the waiter with this white towel over one arm and a silver coffee pot in the other had, I
4
�was just baffled by it all. 8:05 It was just over whelming to me, but we headed out and I
guess most of the girls going were in the same position as I was.
Interviewer: “Had you met some of them at that point and you were talking?”
Oh yeah, I had met some of them and there might have been one from the team that I was
on going as well, but we headed up to Chicago and we were met there and they put us in
a hotel.
Interviewer: “Did you meet the chaperone? Did you have a chaperone that met
you?” 8:40
No, personnel from the league met us because at that time we weren’t assigned a
chaperone. You were assigned a chaperone when you were on a team. So, we arrived
and they put us up in a hotel and I think it was on the seventeenth floor. Alright now,
wow!
Interviewer: “Did you have a room mate in your hotel room?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Also from Canada?”
Yes, I think it was the player I had played with before. Then of course there was the
spring training the first day out there.
Interviewer: “What was that like coming out?”
It was—I was really nervous and self-conscious because I didn’t have all those clothes
and mind you there were others in the same bracket that I was, but I didn’t have the
clothes that they had. I remember on a hot day I had this pleated woolen skirt on and I
was just about melting, but you met these girls and they were from all over the U.S. and
Canada and you realized that they were in much the same spot at I was. 9:59 Spring
5
�training went well and much like in the movie, they put up a list of who made what and
where. I was assigned to the “Minneapolis Millerettes” and it was a new team in the
league that year. Unfortunately the game did not go over well there because the field
where we played was too large for the type of game we played and it was just something
they weren’t ready for, so during the season, I guess halfway through the season, that
whole team went to Fort Wayne, Indiana where it was very successful. 10:44 I played
for Fort Wayne and our manager was Bill Wambsganns, who made the only unassisted
triple play in the world series in 1920, I believe, and he was great. So, I played for Fort
Wayne for two years I guess,
Interviewer: “What was your—going back to your first team, you actually played
for half the season though?”
Yes I did, we played half the season and the other half we were a road team. We were
called the “orphans”.
Interviewer: “Did your nervousness start to go away once you started playing?”
Yes I think it did a little bit, but I was always tense you know, you don’t get over that in a
week or two. 11:35
Interviewer: “Plus you were very young.”
Exactly, I had just turned seventeen.
Interviewer: “How did you rate yourself compared to the other players? Did you
feel like you were a good baseball player?”
Well, I always felt like I was never as good as the others, but I was a good pitcher, yes I
was
Interviewer: “Is that what you trained to be, a pitcher?”
6
�Yes
Interviewer: “Did you play any other position?”
Never
Interviewer: “Same with me, I couldn’t play any other positions and that’s why
they gave me pitching.”
That’s probably the way it was with me. I couldn’t have made out it any other position.
Interviewer: “The first manager you had, did you learn very much from him? One
of the things I have asked the girls is that they knew how to play baseball, but the
managers gave them new tricks and techniques they didn’t know about.”
My first manager was—I can’t remember his name, but I don’t think he really taught the
girls too much. We were all so basically green that it was a big job to—but we gradually
got pretty darn good. 12:49
Interviewer: “Were you thinking at that stage the this was going to be your career,
that you were going to be a professional baseball player?”
No, absolutely not, no
Interviewer: “This is going to sound like a stupid question, but what was the point,
why did you do it then?”
Because it was fun and I got paid for it, I mean, it was something I loved to do and I got
paid for it quite well and I was able to send money home to my mother. If you’re a ball
player and you’re on a team and you’re doing ok, you’re not leaving it.
Interviewer: “So, what was the fort Wayne experience like?” 13:29
It was lovely, we had a lot of Canadians on that team and I played with them for about
two years and Bill Wambsganns was a terrific guy.
7
�Interviewer: “Did he treat you like a woman or treat you like a ball player?”
Oh, I think he treated us like a ball player with consideration. We had chaperones of
course, who really took over that part of the job.
Interviewer: “You didn’t have to go through the charm school or any of that?”
I did, don’t you know?
Interviewer: “Well, let’s talk about that. You were a green seventeen year old.”
I thought maybe you would recognize that I had been to charm school. Yes, we learned
how to pour teas, how to sit properly, stand properly, how to walk with a book on your
head straight and tall, and we learned all those essential things. I think they only had the
charm school for one year as I recall, but we were all so bright we picked everything up
in one year. 14:45
Interviewer: “What was a typical day like during the season, you got up at a
certain time?”
Yup, got up and if we were home, probably had a practice scheduled and of course the
afternoon or evening baseball game and we had to be in the home or in our rooms when
we were on the road, two hours after the game. On the road we did—we went to a movie
or just walked around the city or things like that.
Interviewer: “Well, this is a new experience for you and you’re completely outside
of the home, what were you thinking?
You make friends and there were a lot of Canadians on that team, so we felt a bond you
know, so we sort of strengthened each other. 15:46
Interviewer: “there were older girls there too?”
8
�They were mostly older than I was, but they were maybe eighteen, nineteen and even
twenty.
Interviewer: “What was your social life like during the Fort Wayne period?”
Well, very often we were invited out to dinner by some of the families, they were really
very good to us and I think that was probably our only social events that we got to go to,
otherwise we were pretty well secluded from—I mean it was practice in the afternoon,
game at night, so you didn’t have too much time to get into trouble, but we tried hard.
Interviewer: “What were the road trips like?”
The road trips were a lot of fun, but also very tiring, we played every day and double
headers on Sundays and got up and got on that—at first each team didn’t have a bus, so
that first year we traveled by train and after that each team got their own bus. We spent
the time by doing crossword puzzles, reading a book and singing the songs of , popular
songs of those days. 17:04
Interviewer: “Any particular memorable games during the Fort Wayne
experience?”
Fort Wayne? No, I don’t think so or maybe that was the year—that might have been the
year I pitched a no hitter. We were playing against Kenosha, it was a very drizzly day,
kind of foggy, and I was pitching against Helen Fox, who was also a Canadian girl and
very good, and we both pitched a no hitter because of course, the fog and the mist, I mean
we were just great.
Interviewer: “Once the season was over with you went back to Canada, you went
back home?”
9
�Yes I did, went back to Winnipeg and back to my job. They always took me—I worked
for the Hudson Bay Company and they always just took me back and I left in the spring
and came back in the fall. 17:57
Interviewer: “They knew you were a ball player?”
Yes, of course
Interviewer: “Were you kind of a local celebrity?”
Well I was kind of because I had done so well and my picture was in the paper practically
after every game. I must sound like I’m kind of—but anyway it was because I had made
the record in strikeouts and stuff like that. Yeah, people treated you very good.
Interviewer: “So, Fort Wayne you did for two years and then what happened after
that?”
I was traded to Grand Rapids, to the Grand Rapids Chicks. I think I played with them a
year and a half and then I went to—Grand Rapids Chicks, I can’t remember where after
the Chicks.
Interviewer: “We’ll go there later. How was your experience with the Grand
Rapids Chicks?”
Great, all the experiences were great. You know, we were all young, we were just
looking for new friends and we did find them and you would always stay with a few
Canadians because you were Canadian. I always had about four or five Canadians that
went to have lunch together or whatever. The Californians probably stuck together and
that’s the way it went. 19:23
Interviewer: “Any memorable games when you were with the Chicks?”
10
�No, I had some very good games, but none of them stand out except that no- hitter that I
pitched. I did pitch another no hitter during my days.
Interviewer: “How were the teams that you played against?”
Oh, they were very good, we had some absolutely marvelous players, and they were just
outstanding you know. When we first started playing, people came out to laugh—“oh my
gosh, girl baseball players”, but we showed them that we could play just as well as men
and gradually then the game did change into the regular baseball. 20:18
Interviewer: “So, you started out pitching underhand?”
Yes, and then side arm and then overhand.
Interviewer: “How was that transition for you?”
It went pretty well. When they transferred from the regular, from the size of baseball that
we were using to the regular hardball size, they sent us baseballs for us to work on before
we got to the spring training and Doris Barr, who lived on the same street as I did, just
per chance, she knew someone who allowed us to practice in the armory where we had a
lot of space and that’s what we did. 21:08
Interviewer: “So by the time you got to spring training, you already had been
practicing throwing overhand?”
Right
Interviewer: “Was that a difficult transition for you though?”
Not really, I don’t recall it as being, if I had to pitch overhand I would have found that
difficult.
11
�Interviewer: “Did your record change? You were pitching very well in the
beginning with the larger ball, but was there any difference in terms of your
record?”
I can’t tell you that, I just really—it’s not a secret or anything, I just don’t remember.
Interviewer: “Nobody complained anyway and said you were a lousy pitcher now?”
No, they didn’t fire me or anything. 21:52
Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?”
It didn’t matter what kind of uniform they would have given us, we would have put it on.
We were playing baseball and we were so thrilled to be there, but there was a lot of
laughing etc. of the uniforms, especially by fans in the first year, but I think most of us
liked to play in that. I cannot speak for all of them and I know that some didn’t.
Interviewer: “I guess what I’m trying to get at is, I know a lot of them did
adjustments. One of you said that when she first started wearing it and when she
went out to catch a ball she got most of her hands in her dress as opposed to getting
the ball. Did you alter your uniform at all?”
I altered mine because coming through on the pitch. I had to pin a large portion of the
dress onto the front so it wouldn’t go into that material. 22:52
Interviewer: “If you were on the bus and you needed to get off the bus could you
wear blue jeans?”
No, no, you had to have a dress or skirt on and no, we were never allowed to get off at
stops, so we followed the rules.
Interviewer: “The playing field it’s self changed, the distance and whatnot. How
did you adjust to that?”
12
�Yes it did and yes, Philip Wrigley wanted the game to be faster and more like baseball, so
the pitchers mound was lengthened and the base paths were lengthened and now we were
pitching either side arm, I believe started side arm, and then side arm and overhand, so
those were the changes that were made and you could of course in regular softball you
can’t lead off now, so we could do everything that the major leagues could do. 24:03
Interviewer: “Then you were traded again?”
Yes, then I was traded to oh, gosh, the Peoria Red Wings.
Interviewer: “How was that experience?”
Very nice and I liked that team very much. We had a very good team.
Interviewer: “Any favorites of the three?”
I think Fort Wayne, I think because of all the Canadians on that team.
Interviewer: “Any particular hitter that you did not want to go up against?”
I know there were some that didn’t want to go up against me because I was wild at times.
Of course there were hitters that I didn’t want to pitch against. I mean they were good
hitters. 24:58
Interviewer: “By the time you got through several years now, were you looking at
this as something that was a lot of fun and not something you were going to do for
the rest of your life?”
Oh no, no, no
Interviewer: “What did you want to do?”
I wanted to get married and I had been going with my husband, previously my boyfriend,
for six years or so, so we eventually got married.
13
�Interviewer: “I guess that’s one of the questions that I have. How did you meet
him?”
Oh, we lived on the same block and on the same street.
Interviewer: “Oh, from childhood?”
Yeah, we never dated anyone else and now we have been married for sixty-one years.
Interviewer: “Wow! I didn’t know that.”
We’re going to stick with it. 26:02
Interviewer: “You’re finally sure of each other.”
Yeah, the trial’s over.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you knew him from childhood and you went off to play,
you came back and he was?”
He was there waiting. Actually we generally played catch most of the time. Walking
down the street, he’d go backwards and I’m be going forward pitching to him, but that’s
what we did.”
Interviewer: “Did he come to any of your games?”
I think he was able to get to—let’s see, one of the seasons, where was I at that time? He
came down to see me play.
Interviewer: “I understand he has a special picture he carries around with him?”
He does
Interviewer: “What is that picture?”
It’s of me in my uniform and he’s carried it around for all the years we’ve known—when
we got the picture it was probably in the third year or something of my ball days and yes,
14
�he still has it. 27:12 He’s very proud of it and I’m proud of the picture and proud of
him, maybe proud of him and then proud of the picture.
Interviewer: “What brought your baseball career to an end?”
Getting married, what could you do? I mean, yes we got married and I did play for a year
after that, yes.
Interviewer: “Then what, you got married and had a child as well, but did you go to
work of any kind? Were you still working?”
No, and then we were living in the states, we had moved from Canada and I played home
games for the Rockford Peaches.
Interviewer: “But then, you made a decision not to play anymore? The league still
went on didn’t it?” 28:11
Well, I made the decision because we had family and then another family and you know,
we added on and it was impossible for me to play, but I think family like probably just
became more important.
Interviewer: “Did you miss it?”
I think I probably did, no doubt about that.
Interviewer: “Some of the girls never even talked about their baseball career and
their kids didn’t even know about it. How about you?”
Same thing, because people made fun of you, like you told them you played and you
played men’s rules and they go and say,”yeah”, you know, “yeah, right”, so you felt
embarrassed, so there came a time when you didn’t tell anybody. 29:02
Interviewer: “How did that change because you came to a certain point in your
life—you’re coming to reunions for example?”
15
�Absolutely
Interviewer: “Was it the movie that changed things?”
I think so and I think the movie helped a great deal, right.
Interviewer: “How did you hear about the movie to begin with?”
We had meetings and talked about this movie and that there was a possibility because of
the Players Association, we have a Players Association, and all news gets into the
newsletter and people have a chance to study it and that’s how it came about.
Interviewer: “Now, the association formally began in? I forgot what year it was, do
you remember?”
I do not.
Interviewer: “Were you one of the first members?”
Oh yeah, I was one of the first, I mean in that group.
Interviewer: “Right, we talked with someone who actually put together the original
database and contacted all of you and said, “we’re forming this association”. 30:05
After all those that have gone by and not talking about it, why did you want to get
involved with an association of ex ball players?”
Of course you’re—it’s in you and of course you’ve met all these young women and
everything. The girls you played with, I mean they were all important to us and they
were like family to us. After all we lived with them all summer and played ball and kept
in touch with them and Christmas cards and they were and still are a very, very important
part of our life.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie?
16
�Well, I think we liked the movie because we saw that it was pretty well accurate and we
were happy with Madonna’s part in it. I mean, it wasn’t what Madonna was popular for
at that time, so we were happy with the movie. 31:13 I think we all really liked it, I did
anyway.
Interviewer: “Did it change your attitude about talking about the baseball
period?”
Yeah, it did, definitely, oh definitely because now people saw it and they were able to see
that it was pretty good and these girls could really play.
Interviewer: “In terms of reaction, people actually treat you almost like movie stars
because of that movie.”
Yes they do.
Interviewer: “It rubs off on me, I told my students--I’m a professor at the
university, and I tell my students that I’m doing this documentary and they’re
excited because I get a chance to meet you.”
It’s amazing you know, we can’t understand it, but now we’re used to it because it’s been
going on year after year and they come and, “oh my gosh, can I have your autograph?”
Come on. 32:15
Interviewer: “You seem amused by it.”
I am amused by it you know, by the way they are just lined up with a hat to sign or a
baseball glove or a card or whatever.
Interviewer: “Why do you think people react that way?”
Well, I think it was something different that turned out ok. It was pleasing to watch, it
was on the up and up.
17
�Interviewer: “Now, you had a full life, you’ve had a family and you’ve had a lot of
other experiences, and how does that few years, how does that fit into the scheme of
things in your life? You obviously loved it.”
You’re asking me to compare that?
Interviewer: “Yes, somewhat.”
My baseball life with my family life?” 33:08
Interviewer: “Well, I’m not asking you for a comparison, if you prefer this or
prefer that, just where does it fit in terms of—some of the girls said, for example, it
was their first experience of really becoming a woman and having a more broad
understanding of life as opposed to being in a small town. Was it a like changing
experience for you at all?”
It taught me a lot. It taught me to be considerate, it taught me quite a few things you
know.
Interviewer: “At the very least you know how to pour tea, right?”
Listen, I was one of them that learned how to pour tea and if you ever need someone to
pour tea at some of your social events.
Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you about putting a book on your head and see if
you can still do that or not.”
I honestly—yes, we learned all that and I thought you would notice it. 34:12
Interviewer: “Looking back on it now you said you’re amused by how so many
people just get so excited about all this kind of thing and I had asked you why you
think people are so excited about it and you said because it was something unique
and it’s got to be more than that. It’s—young girls especially look up to you.”
18
�Yes they do, they really do. I mean, even now if we go out to eat or if somebody knows
that I played in the league, they are just all mushy. We get better service, we give them a
card and it just fixes everything up.
Interviewer: “I want to ask you a more philosophical question, it may be a tough
one. Looking back on that experience at that time, what do you think the All
American Girls Baseball League accomplished? What do you think they—I mean
they were a baseball team, there are lots of baseball teams.” 35:15
No, we accomplished more than playing baseball, we showed that we were as equal as
boys. Coming into sports and giving the women’s sports the same consideration that
you’re giving the boys and we did you know, chapter nine [Title IX] was passed for equal
opportunity in sports and I think we accomplished a great deal and we’re proud of what
we did, we’re very proud of it. If you’ve been through—I’m sure you’ve been through
and seen the girls and that and yes, we’re proud of what we did.
Interviewer: “Let me ask you a real stupid question. Why do you come to the
reunions?”
Because I love all of my friends and it’s so exciting. You come to see your friends,
absolutely; because they’re like more than just friends and some of them you probably
think are your family you know. Yes, that’s why we all come and I’m sure that you
might get a similar answer from many. 36:27
Interviewer: “One of the things about reunions that I’ve learned, because I got to
reunions of my fathers, for example, because of his military history. You get to
know people that you didn’t get to know when you were playing ball. Did you meet
some of the players that you never knew?”
19
�Yes, absolutely, that’s true—that you never got to meet. You played against them, but
then you were a player and they were a player and you just hoped you got the batter of
them, but other than that, you come for your love of the game and love of the people you
played with.
Interviewer: “Did you have any involvement in the production of the film like some
of the women did?” 37:16
I happened to be an extra. I did get into the movie as an extra and it was great and I got
paid.
Interviewer: “What scene were you in?”
Ah, well when they were talking about the Canadians there was a scene there and they
were singing a song about the Canadians and there were about three or four Canadians
and they had us standing at the back and we were Canadians, Irish ones and Swedes, so
there were a few Canadians in that. Then I was in another spot too, but you know, you
have to be quick to see that.
Interviewer: “Were you in Cooperstown film at all?”
Yes and that’s in Cooperstown and that’s in the scene where we’re being inducted into
the Hall of Fame. 38:18
Interviewer: “Now, did you go to the induction?”
Absolutely
Interviewer: “What was that like?”
Incredible, incredible, I mean it’s all incredible you know, something that other people
have never done. I’m sure other people have done more important things, but this was
special.
20
�Interviewer: “What was your reaction to the whole league being inducted into the
Hall of Fame?”
It’s fabulous, I mean we all figured we had it coming and we deserved it so to speak. We
played hard and a lot of people enjoyed our games and why not? 39:05
Interviewer: “My favorite scene in the whole movie, and I actually use it in my
classes, is the scene between Tom Hanks and Geena Davis where he says—“she said
it got too hard.”
Yes, that’s one of my favorites.
Interviewer: “That brings tears to my eyes whenever I watch that.”
It’s hard yes, something like everything is hard you know. Yes, that’s one of my favorite
spots.
Interviewer: “He says, “of course it’s hard, if it was easy everybody could do it”,
and obviously they couldn’t because only you guys could do it.”
Right
Interviewer: “Which is great. Well good, I’ve enjoyed myself and I hope you have
survived through this.”
Yeah, well I did my best.
Interviewer: “Thank you so much.”
21
�22
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_ADaniels
Title
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Daniels, Audrey (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dearfield, Norma
Description
An account of the resource
Audrey Daniels was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba, in 1927. She grew up playing ball with the boys in the neighborhood, and then joined a girls' team when she was fifteen. She was later spotted by Dotty Hunter, who had played in the All American league's first season and encouraged her to try out. She joined the league in 1944, and was assigned initially to the Minneapolis Millerettes, who then moved to Fort Wayne, and she later played for Grand Rapids, South Bend and Rockford. She was a successful pitcher who threw several no-hitters over the course of her career.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c06c8ce94e4eb6efae8934af8ca00afa.mp4
26147b7326ea404e7281dd82aaeae574
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cf6b584e67d72eee9593af480f193dbf.pdf
520195aee97472c483e9b6466582af34
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
DORIS COOK
Born: Muskegon, Michigan June 23, 1931
Resides: Muskegon
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 18, 2013
Interviewer: Could we start with your name, and where and when were you born?
My name is Doris Cook and I was born in Muskegon, Michigan on June 23rd, 1931.
Interviewer: What were your early days like? You were born in Muskegon and
what was your family? Tell us about your family and where you were living.
Well, I’m a member of a twelve children family and we lived in the suburbs and we
played sports all our life. My dad was into baseball, so the rest of us just got into sports
naturally.
Interviewer: What did your father do for a living?
He was a pattern maker.
Interviewer: So, he was the bread winner, so to speak, and your mother was a home
maker? 1:03
Yes
Interviewer: Where were you in the chain of twelve children?
I was fourth from the oldest.
Interviewer: What was your early schooling like?
Well, we went to like country schools and the school went through eighth grade and then
we went on to junior high and high school.
1
�Interviewer: In your early days of schooling though, did you have to walk to the
school, and what did the school look like?
Well, it was kind of modern like, but we did walk most of the time. There was a bus, but
we lived about four blocks from the school, so they preferred we walked.
Interviewer: You had a sister that was a couple of years older than you?
Yes
Interviewer: Did you go to school together?
Yes
Interviewer: In the early days I know—I‟m an only brat myself, but how did you
get along with your brothers and your sisters?
Oh, just fine, we played together all the time. 2:01
Interviewer: Okay, so your older sister though, what was your relationship with
her?
Well, it was good and we played on teams together.
Interviewer: Well let‟s, before we get into that, where did you first get introduced
to baseball?
I guess I was such a young age, it was sand lot ball back then with all my brothers and all
the neighbors. We played mostly with boys. At that time girls sports weren’t really
popular, so we were playing with the boys most of the time.
Interviewer: Okay, this is—you say it‟s a sand lot, so did you set up your own bases,
or were they already there?
No, we had to make our own in a field out behind the house, we did our own.
2
�Interviewer: This may sound like a stupid question, but how did you even know
how to play baseball?
Well, I guess maybe, my dad taught us. 3:00 Then it comes naturally, we didn’t seem to
have a problem with it. I had two brothers older than myself and we all just—I guess we
learned from my dad probably.
Interviewer: Was there any adult supervision, like umpires or anything like that,
while you were playing?
No
Interviewer: So you guys were just playing together and divided up into teams and
just played?
Yeah
Interviewer: When you were in school learning English and math and all that, did
you have any idea what you wanted to do with yourself?
No, I didn’t have that in mind.
Interviewer: Okay, what would be the normal route for a girl of your age at that
time? For you to go—where would you go after you got out of school for example?
Well, back then there weren’t a lot of careers for women, so you didn’t talk about careers.
Maybe you thought you’d become a wife and a mother and you just didn’t get into where
your life was leading. 4:06
Interviewer: But, you brothers, of course, were thinking in terms of what they were
going to do, have jobs or things like that, but in your mind it was just a matter of
getting through school and then what are you going to do at the end of school,
maybe get married?
3
�Right, we didn’t think about that.
Interviewer: Where did the idea of playing baseball in a more organized way come
about in your life?
Well, I was probably about twelve years old and my sister, of course, was a couple years
older and we had city softball for women. There was nothing in the high schools, they
had local city [league], and most of those women were older, of course. School teachers,
physical education teachers, and I think I was twelve when I started. 5:00 Donna played
ahead of me like that before she turned to pro.
Interviewer: Well, let‟s not jump ahead too quickly here. How did Donna get
involved with—since she was ahead of you, how did she get involved in this league?
Well, because of playing locally and all your local advertisements and publicity and it
was a known fact that she was a good ball player, so then they started scouting that, you
know.
Interviewer: So, they actually had scouts going out to these lots and watching?
Well, I can’t say that, I think they got it from the newspaper and word of mouth in town
where you’re popular, you know.
Interviewer: So, you‟re two years behind and here she is going to play, how did that
make you feel? Did that motivate you or did you get jealous? What was your
reaction?
I think I thought, “Well, I’ll do the same thing”, but her time came along first and that
didn’t bother me. 6:04
I was still in high school; she started playing, and my dad and
my mother, the family, supported it, so I just kind of followed along with that.
4
�Interviewer: Did you talk about that at the family dinners and things like that, that
she was playing and that you wanted to play next? Did they have any idea that you
were going to follow in her footsteps?
I don’t know that we discussed it. I think it just came naturally. I was doing the same
thing she had done, playing with the city softball, local and it just was like I just followed
her.
Interviewer: This is going to sound like a stupid question, but why baseball? Girls
didn‟t play baseball that much and certainly not in the professional leagues, but
why were you interested in baseball?
Well, we really played a lot of sports, and I played a lot of basketball and that was also
city. When I say city, we came to Grand Rapids, Holland, Zeeland and played teams
from those cities, so we were really into all sports. 7:08 At that time I didn’t start
bowling yet. I was busy with baseball, basketball and volleyball, but you didn’t have that
stuff in high school, there wasn’t enough of that going on for girls, so you had to go and
look outside of school.
Interviewer: You say your parents were supportive. Did your dad talk to you and
give you hints on how to play, or at that time were you playing pretty well?
Oh, he gave us a lot of hints. In fact one thing he did, he’d take a new glove and take the
strings out of it and remove some of the padding, because they were too thick and stiff,
and he’d loosen that up for you and put it back together, so you could catch better with it.
Interviewer: You know, I‟ve talked to some of the women who had difficulty getting
equipment and things like that, because their parents didn‟t have the money. 8:00
5
�Your father did pretty well, I mean, he was able to buy you the equipment you
needed?
I think so, and between all the kids somebody had a ball and a bat. It might not be
something like a bat for yourself, it’s one that everybody uses. We had our own, but
other kids brought bats and balls and gloves and stuff too.
Interviewer: Okay, this is a period of time in America where things economically
were pretty bad. This is the depression era and how did you and your family
survive through that? How did you fare?
We did very well, and at that time there was probably eight of us, because some came
along later, but we never had to go for help, my dad worked a lot of hours, worked every
day, never took a vacation and we were well enough off. 9:00
Interviewer: First of all, Doris was always ahead right? She was always the kind of
person that got involved in something and then you kind of followed in her tracks.
When did you first, or your family first hear about this professional—women
playing baseball, what‟s that all about?
We were lucky--they came to Muskegon with a team, and in 1946 one of the teams came
into Muskegon, so we just fell into it. They started playing in Muskegon at Marsh Field
and my family started going to the ball games. Donna was still in high school, then
graduated and went right into baseball.
Interviewer: What was the process, maybe you don‟t know the detail, but I want to
know the details of how you got in, but how did Donna get in? You went to the ball
games, saw that there was this professional league and did you see it in the papers
too, was it on the radio, how else did you know about this league? 10:00
6
�Well, I guess we saw the sports page and the ball games, and our whole family went to
the games. Then Donna tried out, of course, you didn’t have to go anywhere else to try
out, you know, they watched her play right there in Muskegon, so it was easy.
Interviewer: So, she gets in and what about you?
Well, I’m still in school, of course, I’m a couple years behind her, and while I’m a senior
in high school they were going to have tryouts in Chicago. So, I got out of school and
went to Chicago for a week.
Interviewer: How did you get there?
On the bus
Interviewer: So, your dad is very supportive of this, because somebody had to have
some money to get on the bus.
Right, and he was all for it.
Interviewer: There were no worries, at this point, about you going off by yourself to
Chicago? Had you been to Chicago before?
No, I don’t know if I’d ever been to Grand Rapids, and you just didn’t travel back then
like that. 11:05 We had a car, but you just didn’t travel, and I don’t think they were
afraid for me. I think they thought it was well supervised.
Interviewer: How old were you at that point?
Seventeen
Interviewer: I know that was a long time ago, but what were your feelings as you
got on that bus to go to Chicago?
You know, I had mixed feelings about it. I didn’t know if I wanted to be away from
home or get on a bus and to all these strange towns, even just getting to Chicago. But I
7
�think that once I got there they kept you so busy with the training, and all the girls, you
just didn’t think about it after that.
Interviewer: you had to go through a tryout though didn‟t you?
Yes
Interviewer: Where was that?
In Chicago
Interviewer: You get on the bus, you don‟t know if you‟re going to make the team,
right?
No
Interviewer: But Donna already has? 12:02
Donna is already in the league.
Interviewer: I‟m just trying to think, younger sister getting on the bus, going to
tryout, sister‟s already in there, you had to have some feelings about worrying about
it, are you going to miss her now?
I think you do, but I think I had enough confidence that I knew I could play as well as the
next one, and I didn’t have a problem with that. So, we trained and after the week was
over I knew I’d made it, but I had to go back to school and graduate.
Interviewer: Before we jump into that, you say it was a whole week?
Yes
Interviewer: Walk us through, basically, the whole week. You arrive in Chicago.
Okay, is there somebody there to meet you?
Yes
Interviewer: So, tell us about that.
8
�The hotel arrangements are all made and all the girls are staying at the same place. then
you just start right out early in the morning training all day long.
Interviewer: You met these girls, where were they from? 13:02
They were from all over.
Interviewer: Well, that had to be new. You grew up in a small town and had not
even been to Chicago and suddenly there are all these girls.
Ah huh, and they were from all over. I knew nobody, but it’s easy, you’re busy playing
ball and it doesn’t seem like it was a problem.
Interviewer: In the movie, A League of Their Own, they really made it a point to
show that there were New York girls and they kind of had an attitude and there
were other girls that were more Midwest and they were—was it anything like that to
you in terms of different parts of the country?
Well, it was different-- the fact that we were in Chicago and the manager was from
Chicago and coached their other teams, and he had a lot of his own girls there, so they
were like they had their foot in the door. They knew him and they had played together,
some of them, so it wasn’t a problem for them. 14:04
Interviewer: So, your first day there, you arrive in Chicago. I take it you didn‟t
train that day; you probably had a day off before you started?
Probably, depending on what time I got there.
Interviewer: So, first day of training what am I seeing? There‟s a—you see a
baseball diamond, right? What am I seeing when you walk onto the field?
Lots of girls out there, running, throwing, batting. A lot of it was running, throwing and
catching; a lot of practice and training in catching.
9
�Interviewer: And there were a lot of individual—I take it there were men standing
around watching every step to see how you threw, how you hit the ball and that sort
of thing.
Right
Interviewer: There‟s a scene in the movie where Geena Davis walks out and she
sees all those girls out there. That‟s pretty much the way it looked right? Is that
right?
Yes, ah huh, that’s pretty true.
Interviewer: What were you thinking during that week? You said you had
confidence going in, but you saw all these other girls, and you probably saw some of
them were pretty good and maybe others you were thinking, “Well, you‟re not as
good as you think you are”. What was going through your mind that week? 15:14
Well, I don’t think I ever thought I wasn’t going to make it. I just think I had enough
confidence, and thought I knew how to play ball well enough that I didn’t know there
was any way they wouldn’t pick me. I guess it must have been confidence.
Interviewer: At the end of the week, how did they let you know, or let the other
girls know, that you made a team? How did you find out?
Well, I don’t recall that, I just don’t remember. I do know that I had to leave to come
back to Muskegon, so they told me before I left.
Interviewer: Did you know what team you were going to be playing for?
Yes
Interviewer: What team was that?
The “Springfield Sallies” 16:00
10
�Interviewer: Now, Springfield is quite a distance away from Muskegon, in fact it‟s
not even in Michigan. What was your reaction to that?
Well, I wasn’t familiar with the Chicago team either, so as far as the names of the teams,
or the states, I guess it didn’t mean a whole lot to me, I just knew I was on that team.
Interviewer: Now, you go back home by bus and what was the reaction of your
family when you told them you made the team?
They were happy, and it’s like they knew I would. I don’t know that anyone thought I
wouldn’t make it.
Interviewer: That‟s wonderful—do you think part of it is because your sister came
ahead of you and she was making it and you had shown that you—your father was
confident that you were a good ball player?
Yes, and we had a lot of write-ups in the paper, publicity, where they made it known we
were good ball players. 17:00
Interviewer: I know that the media does things like that. Were there any items
regarding the fact there are two sisters who had made it into the ball team?
Well, with the league I don’t know that it did. Locally, with the city it did, because they
were aware of it, so that made a lot difference in Muskegon.
Interviewer: You graduate, now what happens?
Like the next day, I had to get on a bus and go down to Evanston, Illinois. The teams left
Chicago and started on the road and I met them down in Evanston.
Interviewer: Let me get an idea—now you lived this and I have read about this, but
I want to get to the details of how you were actually told where you‟re going, or did
11
�you just not know where you were going? You arrive now in Evanston and you‟re
going to play for a season, right?
Yes 18:03
Interviewer: Did they sit down with you and the whole team and say, “Okay,
Tuesday you‟re going to be here and Wednesday you‟re going to be there playing
this”. Did you have any idea where you were going and who you were playing?
Not really, you had a business manager, a coach, and two chaperones for each team. The
business manager went out ahead and scheduled the games. We’d play a game, get on
the bus, and go to the next town. We might know where we’re going, but it didn’t mean
anything to us, we didn’t know these towns, we just went wherever they said, “We’re
leaving now and going to the next town”.
Interviewer: Now, this is 19---you said 1945 was when you first—
No, mine was 1949
Interviewer: 1949 was when you got in the professional league?
Yes
Interviewer: Okay, the war is already over with, the league has actually been going
on through the war, so it‟s already established, it‟s not like it‟s a brand new thing,
and it‟s been around a few years. 19:06
Yes
Interviewer: Now, you joined a team that had experienced girls already playing and
then some rookies like you. Tell me about being a rookie.
Well, there were enough rookies that you know, but they made you know you were a
rookie. But we didn’t have a lot of the girls that had been in the league too long. It might
12
�have been half and half. There were girls they sent on down to the tour team then from
the teams they were playing with. See, Springfield was a team that was in the league and
then they dropped the franchise in that city, that’s how it became Springfield, because
there was a team there at one time and they had the uniforms and the whole bit.[The
Sallies and another team were barnstorming teams made up mostly of new and younger
players that traveled together and played each other as a sort of minor league for the
AAGPBL]
Interviewer: So, you‟re joined up with this team, you‟re one of the rookies, and tell
us about your first game. 20:06
Oh boy, I don’t know if I can remember that. I played left field, I was the left fielder, and
nothing stands out as far as-Interviewer: Were you first string?
Yes
Interviewer: Wow, so even though you‟re a rookie, they had you starting?
Oh yeah
Interviewer: Wow, so what‟s the first game you remember?
Boy, I can’t tell you that, nothing stands out.
Interviewer: When you‟re traveling like that it must be almost like a blur. You‟re
playing a game, and you‟re playing another game. Let‟s talk about how that works,
alright? You get on a bus, and it‟s a bus with all the girls and you‟ve got your
chaperone on there. When did you first meet the chaperone? When you first
started out, when you first came in there?
Probably when the tour started
13
�Interviewer: What was her responsibility?
She had to make sure we were all in our rooms at night and everybody was safe. 21:06
didn’t get in any trouble, and if there were injuries she also served like a nurse, giving
rubdowns for “Charlie horses”, and she really had a big responsibility. See, both teams
traveled together on the same bus.
Interviewer: Two opposing teams?
Yes, there were like thirty-five of us. There was the manager and two chaperones, and
then girls from both teams, and the business manager.
Interviewer: In the early days, as you well know, there was a chaperone and also,
the chaperone was making sure you looked right and you didn‟t do this and that.
But, you didn‟t have to go through any kind of charm school did you?
No, they did earlier, but at that point they did not have a charm school.
Interviewer: But, did they still—in particular the chaperone, did she make sure
that when you were out in public you had to sit a certain way? 22:06
We had to be sure we were in skirts at all times. Never shorts, jeans, or slacks, those
were not allowed, even riding on the bus. When you were on the bus you could put
shorts on, but if you got off the bus you had to put your skirt back on.
Interviewer: What about things like make-up and things like that?
Well, they didn’t talk about make-up a lot. They worried about the hair, having the hair a
certain length, and making sure everybody was clean and neat.
Interviewer: And that was the chaperones‟ responsibility, so if you got out of bed
one early morning and came out and your hair was disheveled, she could actually
walkup to you and say, “Comb your hair”, or something like that?
14
�That’s right, yes
Interviewer: Now, the manager, of course, was in charge of what goes on, on the
field. Your first manager, how was your relationship with your first manager?
23:01
It was very good, a very nice man, and then he coached that team the first year. I went on
tour two years, but then later he went into the league and I played for him in Kalamazoo.
Interviewer: Managers, of course, are different because they have different
personalities, they have skills and what not. There are some managers, for example
in the movie; Tom Hanks was kind of angry and yelling at the people. What was
your manager like in terms of how he reacted to you and to the team?
He was very mild mannered, and a very nice guy. He liked to laugh and have fun. He
kept everything under control and I won’t say he wasn’t stern, but he was not mean or-he wasn’t good at yelling at the girls. He could make them understand without getting
irate.
Interviewer: What was his background? 24:01
I think all he did was coach in Chicago. He coached girl’s teams in Chicago.
Interviewer: Some of those guys were pro baseball players.
Right, and he didn’t happen to be one of those. Most of those guys were former major
league ball players.
Interviewer: So, I want to get an idea of the traveling time. You have to go from
city to city to play and you have both teams in the bus. What was it like to be on the
bus?
15
�Well, we had a lot of fun, and when the season goes along, sometimes you get kind of
irritated. There’s a lot of people around all the time, but for me it was easier because I
came from a big family. It’s like I just fell into it, where some girls were the only child in
their family and it was harder for them, but we got along good, even with our opposing
team, we were all friends. 25:01
Interviewer: In the early days, did you have any idea of the impact that you were
making on baseball, and on young girls who—as you know, later on baseball
became part of high schools and girls had a lot more opportunities than they had
before and when you were a kid. Did you have any idea, in the early days, that
something like that would happen?
Never, never in a million years
Interviewer: You‟re playing baseball and you‟re enjoying baseball.
We’re doing something we love.
Interviewer: Now, you were paid pretty well too, by the standards of the time.
Yes
Interviewer: Do you remember what you were getting in the early days?
When I was on tour, we made twenty-five dollars a week, but they paid all our expenses,
and we got three dollars a day for meals, which back then, you could eat on that, those
years back. So, actually I saved a lot of money, because we were always on the road, we
weren’t spending a lot of money, so most of my money I just sent back home. 26:07
Interviewer: And your dad just put it in the bank, or whatever?
Yes
16
�Interviewer: So, you had a little nest egg that you were building as you were moving
along?
Right
Interviewer: And your father, you said, was doing well enough that he didn‟t have
to tap into your money.
Oh, no
Interviewer: Because as you know, some of the girls were very poor and had to
actually help support their families. So, in your case, you were actually building
your own little nest egg, that‟s pretty good.
He was all for that, that’s what he preached, “Get an account and save your money”.
Interviewer: Now, in the early days you were playing on the Springfield team,
where was your sister?
She was in Muskegon to start with, and I think she went to Grand Rapids from there. To
the Grand Rapids Chicks, and she played on several teams
Interviewer: Now, did you know what she was up to and did she know what you
were up to, in other words, was there a way of finding out if she hit a homerun in a
game or not, or were you completely isolated because you were on the bus and doing
your own? 27:06
No, we had no idea what was going on in the league and they had no idea what we were
doing either.
Interviewer: How did you get your news of what‟s going on in the world? Did
you—were you so insulated in that bus, and then playing a game, and then back on
17
�the bus and then into the hotel, did you have any idea of what was going on around
you?
Yeah, we’d get the paper when we would stop at the hotels, you know, and check in.
We’d usually travel all night after the ball game and check into a hotel, but we usually
got the newspaper to know what was going on. Of course it didn’t have anything to do
with the league; we didn’t know what they were doing.
Interviewer: Right, because it wasn‟t like the New York Yankees or something like
that.
Right
Interviewer: The local papers, though, would carry stories about, not the league
necessarily, but about the individual teams in the town. Is that right? 28:00
Yes, and our business manager went out ahead and got the publicity out, and that’s how
the crowds came to the ball games, they knew we were coming to town.
Interviewer: In the early days, and we‟ll get into more details about your particular
games that you played and your career, but in the early days, what were the crowds
like?
Well, we’d hit a lot of small towns, but we would get seven and eight thousand people,
which was really great, because we’d be in some towns where it was almost like you
were playing out in a field, in a pasture, but those are the towns that drew the fans from
all over.
Interviewer: Ball parks were different town to town obviously, but in terms of—a
baseball diamond is a baseball diamond and you‟ve got bleachers for people to sit
18
�on, but you‟re saying that in some of the smaller towns it was out in the middle of
nowhere, so to speak?
Yes
Interviewer: Okay, were some ball parks better than others to play on, just in terms
of dirt and the way it was set up? 29:05
Yes, and we did play in some big parks, in big cities you know, a lot of big cities.
Interviewer: Walk me through the process—you get up in the morning, you‟re in a
hotel, you all get together and you‟re showering and you‟re getting your teeth clean
and all that kind of stuff, and you‟re all kind of mingling around, and you get on the
bus, right? Then the bus takes you to the ball park, and u go out and do your warm
ups and your practice and what not. The crowd shows up, you play the game, get
back on the bus, and then back to the hotel?
No, normally we had to shower right at the ball park and get on the bus and travel.
Sometimes we played a couple of nights in one town, but mostly it was just one night.
After the game, we’d shower, get back on the bus, and travel all night again. 30:00
Interviewer: When did you sleep?
Well, mostly on the bus.
Interviewer: I‟ve been on buses, you can‟t sleep on buses.
I know, I didn’t do good sleeping, but I’ve never needed much rest either, so I, really,
didn’t worry about that. But when we got into a town early in the morning, most girls
went to bed and got their rest before we had to get ready again.
Interviewer: What time were the games, usually?
Probably seven o’clock
19
�Interviewer: You had the whole day, basically.
Yes
Interviewer: What did you do?
We did a lot of things we shouldn’t do, like go swimming. It was hot, and something we
liked. A lot of us would go to the swimming pool, a lot of girls went to the movies where
it was air conditioned, to keep cool, but basically, that’s about what I remember.
Interviewer: How come you said it was things you were not supposed to do?
What‟s wrong with swimming and going to a movie?
Well, you take all your energy
Interviewer: Ah, okay 31:04
They didn’t want you to be all tired by the time it came time for a ball game.
Interviewer: Well, if that‟s the case, how did you get by the chaperone to go
swimming?
We had our skirts on, and she didn’t know that we were doing that.
Interviewer: So, there was a little bit of talking amongst you, “Today we‟re going to
go to the swimming pool, and how are we going to get out?” You were pretty much
free to do what you wanted in terms of, “you got your skirt on, so you‟re allowed to
go out into the town”, right? Go shopping or whatever? So, they didn‟t have
someone with you all the time?
No, so several of us would be together, and we’d have to get a cab to go to a pool, and we
were just busied for the day, and we really stayed out of trouble.
Interviewer: Were there any of you that got in trouble?
Not really
20
�Interviewer: Okay
I think maybe one or two girls were sent home. 32:02
Interviewer: Why were they sent home?
Maybe even smoking, and we were young enough there was very little drinking. There
might have been one girl that had been drinking and they sent her home, but normally, we
were too young for any of that. But, if they didn’t do what they were told, that’s why
they were sent home. They didn’t follow the rules.
Interviewer: The rules were made very clear to you I take it in the very beginning?
Yes
Interviewer: No smoking, no drinking, always wear the dress, behavior had to be
within certain guidelines and what not?
Yes
Interviewer: Where do you recall is the first real game that you played that you can
remember as this is the game that you played and did something that was out of the
ordinary? Was there a game you can remember?
No not—what happened, I was the left fielder and I started getting Charlie horses, so then
I wasn’t able to run. 33:10
So, when I was on the injured list then he started changing
me over to pitching, so then I started becoming a pitcher.
Interviewer: Had you pitched before when you were in softball or early on?
No, never and I still, today, couldn’t pitch softball, I don’t think, underhand.
Interviewer: By 1949 I‟m trying to remember now, what size was the ball? Had
already gone from a larger size to a smaller size?
21
�Yeah, it was just under a softball, and then as the years went along they reduced it.
Interviewer: Now, were you pitching side arm or overhand?
Overhand, and there were sidearm pitchers though/
Interviewer: So, basically, the coach got you to be a pitcher because your leg was
bothering you, you couldn‟t run out in the outfield to catch, you would hurt your
leg. 34:04
Whereas a pitcher, basically, stands up there and throws the ball and
doesn‟t run around a whole lot.
Yeah
Interviewer: What happened to the pitcher that was before you? Did you just
become like a substitute pitcher?
Well, we had several pitchers; we had three or four pitchers, so nobody had to pitch every
night.
Interviewer: From my recollection of baseball, you had first string and second
string. Did that apply to your group, or you just had pitchers that pitched different
games?
Yeah, just different pitchers
Interviewer: So, it wasn‟t as if you had one pitcher that played most of the games
and when that person got tired you replaced them?
No, it’s like the majors today where they put in a pitcher.
Interviewer: Okay, your first game as a pitcher, if I remember correctly, was it
Yankee Stadium? Is that accurate? 35:00
Well, we played there, but that was not our first game.
Interviewer: But, your first game as a pitcher?
22
�I’ll tell you, nothing rings a bell as far as anything outstanding.
Interviewer: Okay, because I have a note here that when you played at Yankee
Stadium there were some Yankees there and you exchanged a signed ball with
Tommy Henrich, is that right?
Tommy Henrich, yes
Interviewer: Tell us about that and what happened there?
Well, we were there to play some exhibition before their game, so we were out in the
field with them while they were having warm-ups, and so we got to talk to the fellows
and I changed balls with Tommy Henrich. They would take our ball and bat it, and we
were all just inner mingling.
Interviewer: What‟s the difference between an exhibition game and just a regular
game that you usually played? 36:00
Well, being on the tour it was, really, mostly all exhibitions, but going into the Yankee
Stadium was strictly an exhibition of a couple of innings.
Interviewer: Oh, I see, you just played a couple of innings.
Yeah, just before their game. They were playing the Washington Senators, and we were
just out on the field ahead of that in a couple of innings.
Interviewer: Okay, I got it. Now, when you‟re in a city like that or a town like that,
doing exhibition, did you also have to play a regular game?
Well, we didn’t that night.
Interviewer: So, you had a chance to go out in spectator seats and watch the game?
Yes, and we did that at Washington’s Griffith Stadium also. In Washington, we went
there and did that too.
23
�Interviewer: You must have seen some amazing ball players.
We did
Interviewer: Who were some of the ones that were playing around that time? Do
you recall any names?
Well, I think Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford, some of the big guys.
Interviewer: Wow, these are legends. 37:05 Now, this is an unfair question and
I‟m giving you this in advance, okay? You‟re a good ball player, you know you‟re a
good ball player, and you‟re watching Mickey Mantle, or Whitey Ford, was there
ever any comparisons in your own mind about, “I can hit better than that”, or
anything like that going on?
I never thought that.
Interviewer: Okay
I never compared myself to the men. A lot of women think they could have played with
the men, and maybe they could have, but as a rule, generally women are just like a step
behind men, I think.
Interviewer: Well, in terms of that league, you had—your actual diamond was a
little bit different, right?
A little smaller
Interviewer: Smaller, and of course, the ball was bigger as well.
Yes
Interviewer: Okay, the trips that you took on the buses and the times that you spent
in the hotel rooms, having dinner, lunch, or whatever, what was the mood of the
24
�team? 38:06 Did you have some friends that you made or was it kind of like you
were all ball players? Did you make some good friends out of that group?
Yes, lots of friends, and they’re still friends today. We still see each other at reunions or
talk on the phone or correspond.
Interviewer: What about the fact that they came from all over? The part, I guess
that I‟m trying to get to is — I‟ve been fortunate enough that I‟ve been in an
international environment. I met people from all over the world and I met people
from different parts of the country, but you‟re coming from a small town, going into
some of these bigger cities that you‟ve never been to before and you‟re meeting
other girls that play as good as you, and are on your team, and opposing teams, but
one‟s from South Carolina, maybe, and another one from New York. Was there
any kind of curiosity, on your part, of how they lived their lives? Did they ask you
questions about what it was like when you were growing up? Was there any of that
kind of talk? 39:06
Yes, because quite a few of the girls were from Chicago and they live a different lifestyle,
that’s all there is to it. When they understand how we lived they just said, “I couldn’t live
like that”, and I’m saying, “I can’t live like you live either”. Some girls were from like
Arkansas where they came right from the hills, and they lived a different lifestyle, but we
all intermixed, you know.
Interviewer: But there was a noticeable difference though, you could really tell
there was—the way they talked for example, and I imagine they thought you talked
funny, and you probably thought they talked funny?
25
�Yes, that’s right, and there were places where we went and people would say, “You’re
from the Midwest states; we can tell by the way you talk”. We don’t think we have any
kind of an accent, and when you get out east too, you know, it’s another ball game out
east, the way those people live. 40:05 We were in around New York, New Jersey,
Newark, and all those cities around in there. We played those when we’d wrap up the
season, we’d be up in that way and you can tell immediately the difference in the attitude
of the people just getting on an elevator, being in a hotel and being with different classes
of people from different areas of the whole country.
Interviewer: But you had a pretty solid family background. You had a solid
ground, so you knew pretty much who you were, so even though you were dealing
with people who had different ways of doing things, you still pretty much stuck to
your own way of doing things.
Yes, I think I always had a mind of my own. Nobody could convince me of, like doing
the wrong thing. I knew what was right or wrong and I just wasn’t made that way. 41:02
Interviewer: Now, 1950 you leave the Springfield Sallies, and you‟re now moving on
to Kalamazoo, is that right?
Yes
Interviewer: Why did that happen and how? Tell us about how that occurred.
They didn’t have the tour after that. The two teams did not tour again and my manager
from the tour was doing the Kalamazoo team and they asked me to play there.
Interviewer: So, you‟re going from being a touring team, now to having a home
team?
Yes
26
�Interviewer: Okay, so what does that do in terms of where you‟re living, because
you‟ve been living on the road, basically, all through the season? By the way, what
happens after the season is over, did you just go back home?
Yes
Interviewer: And what did you do in the off season? The first year, we‟re talking
about 1949-1950.
We ran a soda bar. My dad had a soda bar, and us girls ran it, and it was just strictly in
the family. 42:05
Interviewer: So, he went from his job—he was able to invest in a business and sold
malts and root beer floats and things like that?
Yes, sandwiches and we had a really good business, but the problem was my sister and I
going away, and during the summer months when it’s the most busy, so after a couple
years we stopped doing that, because he couldn’t handle it with us gone. My other sisters
came and helped us, but they were all still in school.
Interviewer: Now, when you got back home, both you and your sister, did you talk
about—brag to each other or try to one up each other, what was that like?
Oh, I don’t think we did, I don’t remember doing that. You talk about things, but we
weren’t trying to outdo each other. 43:01
Interviewer: Did you talk about particular plays that you did that you thought she
would be interested in, like you hit a home run, or something like that?
No
Interviewer: Okay, there‟s no real competition between the two of you?
No, not really
27
�Interviewer: Okay, because sometimes those siblings, they got that competition
going on.
I didn’t feel that way, but I’m not sure how she felt. I can’t speak for her, you know.
Interviewer: So, the touring team ends, and now because the manager already
knew your talents, he decided he wanted you to become part of the Kalamazoo
Lassies now?
Yes
Interviewer: What was that transition like? You went from being on the bus all the
time, hotels, play, busses, what was the difference? Did you have to move to
Kalamazoo?
Yes, and I lived with a family. I just had a room with a couple other girls, and girls that
were on the tour that I knew. In fact, neither one of them were on the team I was on, on
tour, but we were friends and we lived with this family in Kalamazoo. 44:06 We just
rented a room.
Interviewer: So, what was your daily routine? I know what it was like when you
were on the touring bus, but what is it like now that you‟re in Kalamazoo?
Well, a lot of times we had to go and practice, but otherwise we found things to do. Like
I said, go swimming, or other things, going to movies.
Interviewer: Do you remember the first day playing at the Kalamazoo, playing for
the Kalamazoo Lassies?
No, not really
Interviewer: Okay, what was the difference though, in terms of playing, was it just,
basically, the same kind of thing, you‟re just playing the game?
28
�I think it was the same, except now I’m a real rookie with lots of veterans, and that’s the
point where they made us know we were rookies and they were veterans, but there were
enough of us that we stuck together, so that didn’t bother us. 45:04 I can’t say they
were mean to us, they were just like, “We’re a little better than you are”, but that doesn’t
last either.
Interviewer: Oh, okay, because you start to prove yourself and once you start
hitting that ball or catching that ball, they—
And they get to know you, you know.
Interviewer: Are there any notable games you can remember while you‟re in
Kalamazoo?
No
Interviewer: How was your hitting?
Not good
Interviewer: Neither was mine, I was a pitcher too.
I have to admit, I was not a batter.
Interviewer: How was your pitching?
I was fairly good.
Interviewer: Any specialalities?
No
Interviewer: Okay, I actually learned how to throw a knuckle ball, and that was
pretty impressive in little league, somebody throwing a knuckle ball.
Yeah, because back then you didn’t talk about all the pitches they talk about today.
46:00
29
�Interviewer: Sure, sure, was it during this period of time that the transition went
from the larger ball to a smaller ball?
Yes, as the years went along it reduced two or three times.
Interviewer: Right, how did you adapt to that? Was there any problem in adapting
to it? I mean, it‟s a different weight though isn‟t it?
Yeah, and it was a good change. It would have been worse if it was the other way
around, to a bigger ball.
Interviewer: So, you played with the Kalamazoo lassies from 1951 to 1953. During
this period of time you were making good money and money was still going back
home to be saved up in the bank. What was happening during the off seasons? You
said that after a while you were no longer working in the soda fountain. 47:00
No, when I started playing in Kalamazoo I decided to stay there, because several of us
stayed there then, lots of the girls stayed.
Interviewer: You‟re now like nineteen, almost twenty years old by this time right?
Yes
Interviewer: So, you‟re actually going from being a girl to, now you‟re more of an
independent woman?
Yes
Interviewer: You‟re making your own money, you‟re not beholding to anybody per
say, okay, so you decided to stay in Kalamazoo. Just renting the room?
Yes, living with, like, the same girls most of the time, and then we all played basketball
together, we had the Lassie basketball team.
Interviewer: This was a city team?
30
�Yes, and I started working at a bank then. Well, I started working at First National Bank
in Kalamazoo. And, of course, I left there to play ball again in 1952. 48:02 They said,
“Now, when you leave, we’re not going to hire you back, you won’t have your job”, and
I said, “that’s okay, I’m going anyway”. So, the next year, after I played ball and was
looking for a job, I was hired at Comerica Bank right across the street, and then they
hired me back each time.
Interviewer: This leads me to another question then. You‟re playing baseball
professionally, making good money; you‟re working at a bank now okay? In your
own mind now, at that time, what were you thinking in terms of your career? Were
you thinking you were going to be a professional baseball player for the rest of your
life, or at least for the rest of your physical ability to play, or were you already
thinking, “Wait a minute, this is not going to last very long, I‟m going to be a
banker or whatever”. Was any of that going through your head?
Well, not in the early days. 49:00
In 1953 then, when I was loaned to South Bend, and
came back to Kalamazoo, because I was still living there, that’s when I decided, “I’m just
going back to the bank, I got a job at the bank, I’ll just give up baseball”.
Interviewer: Jumping back a little bit, did you ever think of baseball as being a
career?
Not for my whole life, no.
Interviewer: Why, why would you not think that you could continue playing, at
least until you were physically unable to?
31
�I think that’s what you think about, “I won’t always be able to do this”. Of course, we
had no idea the league was going to fold either, that was a surprise because there were
girls that intended to keep playing.
Interviewer: That‟s why I‟m asking you this, because I‟ve interviewed girls that
thought that they were going to continue to play baseball, but you already figured
out that wasn‟t going to be your path. 50:04
Right, when they loaned me to South Bend I thought, “Oh, I’m not going to go through
this and have them start shifting me around”. I thought, “I got a job, I’m just going to go
to work”. Of course, then I went back into local softball and basketball. I still had my
sports, just not on the professional level.
Interviewer: 1953, you„re playing with the Kalamazoo lassies and you were saying,
just now, that they loaned you out, what does that mean?
South Bend was short players, so they sent me there to help out, which they did a lot of
girls. In fact, that’s the only time my sister and I played on the same team; she was
loaned to South Bend also, so then we got to live together for those couple of months and
play on the same team, which was the first time. 51:01
Interviewer: We‟re going to start winding it down, were about down to about five
minutes more of tape, so we‟re going to wind it down and when they change the tape
we‟ll get back into more of this. I wanted you to know in advance that we‟re going
to stop here just briefly and switch the tapes.
Okay
Interviewer: I want to get into, not right now, but I obviously want to get into you
being in South Bend with your sister. I think that‟s interesting and hopefully there
32
�are little stories there. You haven‟t really talked a lot about your own playing and
the games. I don‟t know if it‟s just a matter of not remembering specific games, but
I‟d like to talk more about some of the games that you played, and the other thing is
more of the details of things like uniforms and equipment, because when you were
playing on the sand lots you were saying somebody had a glove and somebody had a
ball and somebody had a bat you always used and it was different when you became
professional, so I want to get into those kinds of details as well.
Yes, okay 52:02
Interviewer: Not being able to hit a home run—my entire time in the little league,
as a pitcher, I only had one home run. Are you ready for this one? It was a bunt
and they made so many mistakes, they overthrew this one and overthrew that one,
so that was my claim to fame. My only homerun was on a bunt.
Isn’t that funny?
Interviewer: Now, we‟re into some of the details of the league, how the league was
run, how you perform within the league, and let‟s start with the uniform. 53:03
When you were playing in the back sand lots it was what? Basically blue jeans and
what not, whatever you could wear. When did you first, if you can recall, first see
the uniform, the girl‟s uniform?
Well, I was fortunate to see the Lassies in Muskegon when they came there in 1946, so I
knew what they were wearing before I ever joined the league.
Interviewer: What was your reaction? You‟re a young girl and you‟re supposed to
dress in certain ways. Certainly you couldn‟t walk out in the street, at fourteen
33
�years old, wearing a skirt like that. Was there any reaction at all of the uniforms
from you?
I don’t think so, I think a rule is a rule and that was the uniform to wear, and if you didn’t
like it you wouldn’t play. There was no question, it’s like all the rules, and you just had
to abide by the rules. 54:01
Interviewer: What was the uniform that you wore, the first one--with the
Springfield Sallies? What were the colors and what did it look like?
Well, I had been fortunate, I had a white uniform with green trim, and, basically, that’s
what I had in Kalamazoo, except on the road, then we wore gold, but our home uniforms
were white with green, just like I was accustom to.
Interviewer: Hat, baseball hat?
Hat and those were like wool hats, socks, knee socks that were wool.
Interviewer: Did you wear cleats?
Yes
Interviewer: So, they were just like professional baseball.
Yes, and those were not furnished.
Interviewer: Oh, really?
No, you bought your own cleats and your own glove. The bats and balls were furnished,
and the uniform, but we provided our own mitt. 55:02
Interviewer: Why? 56:08 You said you had to furnish your own shoes, the cleats,
and your own glove, out of your own pocket. Why was that, the balls and the bats
and the uniform, all that was taken care of?
I don’t know why either, you know.
34
�Interviewer: The skirt itself also had shorts underneath, but the skirt did not
protect your knees sliding in or anything. Did you ever have an incident where you
had to slide into a base that you can remember?
No
Interviewer: But you saw other do that?
Yes, and in the earlier years those skirts were a little longer and they were fuller. 57:02
But, they learned to make those more chic like and shorter, where it was easier when
throwing and sliding and running, otherwise you had too much of a skirt.
Interviewer: Right, did you ever see anyone slide in? What happens when they
slide onto a base?
Well, a lot of the girls had strawberries, raw hips, and some had it all year long, because
they were used to that. I think my sister was one of the first people back then that slid
head first. You know, they all do it today, but years ago they didn’t do that and I think
she was the first one that I can recall seeing slide head first.
Interviewer: From a civilian perspective, a male civilian perspective, I find it really
difficult to grasp that you would slide into a base. 58:02
Literally, you call it a
strawberry and we‟re talking about scraping the skin in the dirt and the stones and
all that.
That’s right
Interviewer: Well, did they put anything on it? Did you put a band aid on it?
Oh yeah, they got treated afterwards by the chaperone,
35
�Interviewer: But this was common. This is something that went on game after
game and women were always getting these scrapes and what not, but that didn‟t
strike you as strange?
No, it’s like that was the rule and you just abided by it.
Interviewer: so, the uniform, each team had their own uniforms so you could tell
the difference between the teams, obviously, but you said you had, I missed the
wording, but you said you had one kind of uniform and then you had a second kind
of uniform?
Yeah, we wore white uniforms at home and colored on the road, which the major leagues
do now too. 59:00 But, we did that way back then.
Interviewer: I get you now, okay—tell us about the fans. You got good crowds?
Very good, very good
Interviewer: These were people who were e supporting one team or the other, the
home team or the other team, but were there any, in particular, that you can recall,
particular fans?
Well, I had a lot of friends in Kalamazoo, being I worked there during the winter months,
and I would become acquainted with people, but we had regular followings though. Back
in Muskegon we had a “knothole gang”, kids that stood outside the fence and they had
little holes in the fence to look through and they called them the “knothole gang”. Back
in Muskegon, one year, they had a hundred and forty thousand fans, which was a record,
and at one game they had seven thousand. 00:01
Interviewer: Now, the “knotholes” is because they couldn‟t afford the ticket to get
in, right? So, they just looked through the holes in the wood.
36
�Yes, and I see people today, kids, guys in Muskegon who were part of that. They come
up and say, “I used to go to the games and I was part of the “knothole gang””.
Interviewer: We got to talk to those guys--that‟s wonderful. Now, I know that
professional baseball, whether it‟s women‟s baseball or male baseball, there are
certain—there are fans that like one particular player or a couple of players. Did
you ever have a fan club?
Kind of, yes, I—it’s easy for me because I like people and I didn’t have a problem.
Interviewer: Tell us about this, how did you know that these people were watching?
These were young boys?
Yes, and off the field I was friends with them, and we became friends because they came
to the ball games. 1:03 And after the game we’d go out and eat and during the day, or
on weekends, we’d go to a movie, and these fellows would follow us wherever we went.
When they could do that, their work would allow them to do that, and they would come
to Grand Rapids, Fort Wayne, and South Bend. We were centrally located in Kalamazoo,
so these fellas could move around, and they did not miss a game. There must have been
six or eight of them.
Interviewer: Were they around your age?
Yes
Interviewer: Okay, what was their motivation for following you guys around?
Well, I’m not sure, and they became friends with the other girls too and some of them
might have their eye on one of them and be interested. I mean, there was always that
chance. 2:01
37
�Interviewer: These are baseball fans who just happen to be enamored by you and
your teammates since they would travel around to different places. I imagine that
was also true of other teams. I don‟t know if you know that or not, but do you think
that‟s true of other teams?
I think so, I think so, I’m sure that’s how some of the girls met their husbands, by going
to ball games.
Interviewer: You were a pitcher through most of your career?
Yes
Interviewer: You started off, as I recall that, you played in left field and because of
your Charlie horses you were made into a pitcher. Did you feel that you got better
as a pitcher as time goes on, simply because you were practicing, obviously, more
and more, but did you feel like you got better, or did you just kind of take to being a
pitcher?
I don’t know if I got better. I felt, myself, that I was kind of wild, but, you know, I’m left
handed and that’s what they say, that left handers are wild. 3:05
Interviewer: Did you ever “bean” anybody?
No, but close, and one incident, we were in New York and the leadoff batter was a small
girl and the first pitch I threw went behind her instead of in front of her, and she yelled so
loud you could have heard her for a mile. She was just like, you know, petrified. Well,
that made me laugh and everybody there was laughing and I could not keep a straight
face after that, the way she yelled. I couldn’t believe I did it to start with, but it was just
an incident I’ll never forget.
38
�Interviewer: There had to be individual batters that everybody knew was a really
good batter. 4:03 When I was in little league there was a guy that was taller than
all the rest of us and everybody knew that this guy was a major hitter. So, the first
time he ever came up to me, as a pitcher, I remember that distinctly. Now, this
interview is not about me, so I‟m not going to go into details, but I want to know, did
something like that happen to you? There was somebody who already had a
reputation for being a hitter and you‟re the pitcher, and your job is to strike that
person out, or at the very least, have them hit the ball in such a way that your
teammates can get them out. Now, can you recall running up against somebody who
was—had a reputation for being a good hitter?
Well, we had several in the league; in fact, one of them was on our own team, Doris
Sams, who was one of the league’s best hitters, but there were several on other teams that
you had to watch out for.
Interviewer: Do you recall any incident where you had real trouble striking a
person out? 5:02
No, not to my knowledge
Interviewer: Did anyone hit a home run off of you?
I don’t think so, I don’t remember any.
Interviewer: What was the biggest fear, as a pitcher, what was the biggest fear you
had of the batter? In terms of, are they going to hit it into right field, left field, are
they going to hit a line drive, what were the ones that you were concerned the if you
threw the ball a certain way, it was going to get hit in a certain way and then you
guys were in trouble, do you remember? Because I can remember when I was a
39
�pitcher, one of the things I was concerned about was when they would hit over my
head right down the line and, of course, the short stop and they would all try—and
then you would have bases running. Did any of that kind of strategy go through
your head when you were pitching?
Nope, nope, I think I was so busy trying to get the ball over the plate that I didn’t worry
about where they were going to hit it. 6:02
Interviewer: Okay, did you have a special? Was your fast ball really good? Did
you have a curve ball?
Mostly fast ball, but being a left hander you had a natural curve, so that’s one thing the
catcher was worried about, you know, a left hander throwing it.
Interviewer: What was your actual pitching style? I raised my leg and threw that
way. How did you pitch?
Straight overhand
Interviewer: But you had to wind up?
Oh, yeah
Interviewer: And then what? You brought the ball here, right, and then what?
Then I kicked my leg too.
Interviewer: You did kick your leg?
Yeah
Interviewer: That gave you the traction to do the overhand?
Right, to throw straight down, you know.
Interviewer: Any times when the ball came straight at you, when they hit the ball?
7:01
40
�A couple of times
Interviewer: Can you talk about that? Do you remember that?
No, I was fast enough to reach out, you know. I didn’t get hit with it anyway. I was
either fast enough to get out of the way or catch it.
Interviewer: Do you remember any close games? I mean ones where you really
didn‟t know if you were going to win or not?
Not right off hand, no. I guess we’re talking about too many years ago that nothing sticks
in my mind.
Interviewer: Sure, sure, you were talking about this “knothole gang” and these
young gentlemen who used to follow you around. What about girls, did girls come
to the games? I mean, eleven, twelve, thirteen, you know, a little younger than you,
but were there girls at these games?
I’m sure there were, because we had bat girls, too. There were young girls that hung
around the ball park and then they became a bat girl, but most of them were not real
young kids. 8:05 There were lots of ladies there, lots of women that enjoyed the sport.
Interviewer: I was thinking that here you had these male admirers that were
following you around, and I‟m just wondering why there were no younger girls that
were fascinated by the baseball and would want to meet with you and talk to you.
I don’t know, I think that it wasn’t that popular yet in the schools like todays time. They
didn’t do that in school like they do today.
Interviewer: Did you have to sign autographs?
Yes
Interviewer: Like balls and things like that?
41
�Yes, we did a lot of that.
Interviewer: Was that done just after the game? People would come up and ask
you for an autograph?
Sure
Interviewer: What was your reaction to that? You‟d seen Yankee‟s baseball gets
those sorts of things and did you just take that in stride that somebody wanted your
autograph?
Yeah, I didn’t think about it like I’m really something, and it seemed like that was the
thing to do. 9:05 You liked that they wanted your autograph and I liked it when the
people liked me.
Interviewer: Did you ever get interviewed for a newspaper or radio during those
days, do you remember?
No, I’m trying to think
Interviewer: In terms of—I want to get, once again, down to the “South Bend Blue
Sox” when you were loaned out. You were part of a major team, the “Kalamazoo
Lassies”, you were part of a touring team, the “Springfield Sallies”, was that a
different experience for you to be just loaned out to a team?
Yes
Interviewer: In what way?
I don’t know, but I didn’t like it, and I know a lot of girls were loaned. My sister played
on about eight different teams and I guess that comes with the territory, but I didn’t like it
when I was loaned out. 10:07
Interviewer: Why?
42
�I don’t know, I guess I thought, I didn’t know if Kalamazoo didn’t need me, and maybe it
hurt my feelings, and maybe that’s why I quit at the end of the year.
Interviewer: I guess that‟s what I was getting at, maybe that was part of the
motivation.
It was like; “I’m not going back”, but they still had my contract in Kalamazoo. I’m like,
“I’m not going to go back and have them start shifting me around”.
Interviewer: When you‟re playing with the “Lassies”, and when you played with
the “Sally‟s”, you had mentioned that there‟s a sense of--you have a team, there‟s a
camaraderie, you know the people, you‟re going through the same kinds of trials
and tribulations, but with the South Bend team did you feel that, it was—did you
feel like you were part of that team? 11:00
Yeah, it was alright
Interviewer: A different uniform?
Oh yeah—well, the same short skirt, different colors is all.
Interviewer: Right, how did you get fitted for those? Did they have a tailor there,
or something?
Yeah, they had places they would take them and have them dry cleaned and stuff. They
had places to take them, because we didn’t wash our own uniforms. Those were left at
the clubhouse and I believe the chaperone, that was her job to make sure the uniforms got
cleaned, so they were dry cleaned, you know.
Interviewer: What did you do for—you mentioned before that on the off days, or
the days before you played a game, you would either go swimming, or you would go
43
�to the movies, but what was some of the other recreation? What were some of the
other things you used to do?
Right off hand I can’t tell you.
Interviewer: Were you a reader, did you like to read?
Sure, but then you didn’t have TV like today. 12:02 You didn’t sit home and watch TV,
and it’s like we had something going on all the time, maybe with several of us going
shopping.
Interviewer: Were you very fashion conscious?
No, not really, of course I worked in the bank, so you had to wear skirts again, you
always wore a dress, so that part of it, you weren’t in slacks like you are today. That
wasn’t the style.
Interviewer: Right, now during this period of time, you‟re starting out at seventeen
and you‟re into your twenties, and if this is too personal you just don‟t have to say
anything, but it was at this time—usually, when a young girl starts to think about
boys and boys start thinking about girls. Was there anybody in the wings there?
13:00
Yup, I had boy friends in Kalamazoo, and I had them in Muskegon while I was in high
school, but nothing serious on my part, but I had several boyfriends.
Interviewer: Now, these boyfriends--were they people you attracted because you
were a ball player, or they met you when you were not playing ball?
Well, both
44
�Interviewer: Because that‟s got to be flattering, to be playing baseball and some guy
comes up and he‟s obviously interested in talking to you and maybe wants to go out
to a movie, or something like that?
Yes, and I did that a lot, or we went swimming. After the game they took you out for
dinner. We had a couple of hours until we had to be back, but we went out for dinner a
lots of times after the ball game, but I did go places with them, or go to movies—a lot of
activities.
Interviewer: Did you travel in groups when you went on these dates, and whatnot?
Was there like two of you, or three of you, a group of you? 14:05
Yes, maybe a couple of the girls and two or three of the boys.
Interviewer: Were you a dancer?
No, back then I wasn’t. I just wasn’t interested then.
Interviewer: We had talked earlier about the fact that you didn‟t see baseball as a
career for you, and you could see that there was something else you wanted to do,
what did you want to do besides baseball, or did you know at that time? I know you
worked in a bank, but that was basically because it was a job, but what did you
want to do?
Well, I think at that point in my life, I thought I’d be in banking all my life. I wasn’t
scouting around looking for something new. I wished I had gone on to college, and
living in Kalamazoo, that would have been ideal.
Interviewer: That was available to women, at that time, to be able to go to college?
15:02
45
�Yes, and some of our girls did that, some of the girls that I roomed with. I wish I had,
because I would be a physical education teacher.
Interviewer: Okay, that makes sense.
That’s the regret I have, of not getting into PE.
Interviewer: Right, but you, after you—let‟s talk about that. The south Bend Blue
Sox, you still have a contract with Kalamazoo though, right?
Yes
Interviewer: What made you decide to quit baseball? The league didn‟t fold until
1954.
Right
Interviewer: That wasn‟t the reason.
No, I got my contract in 1954, but I was working at the bank, and I just decided I wasn’t
going to do that, and then have them shift me around, which I had no idea they would,
but I just thought, “I’ll just keep my job”, and it’s funny how that happened, because the
league stopped then that year. 16:08 In 1954 it was all done.
Interviewer: Was your sister still playing?
Yes
Interviewer: So, what was her reaction to your quitting, do you remember?
No
Interviewer: There was no conversation about, “What are you doing?” “Are you
crazy?” “What are you doing?” There was nothing like that?
No
Interviewer: What about your dad?
46
�I think he didn’t like it, because he really enjoyed the fact that we played, and that was
really his life, you know, but he didn’t try to stop me.
Interviewer: Well, it was a responsible job, and working at a bank, at that time, was
a very prestigious thing.
Right
Interviewer: But what about—and maybe it‟s too much detail, but what about the
money, was the bank paying better than baseball, or was baseball paying better
than the bank?
No, I think I was making more playing baseball. Maybe not a lot more, but I was making
more than on the job. 17:03
Interviewer: But, you didn‟t have to travel, didn‟t have to get on the bus, didn‟t
have to do a lot of that sort of thing.
Right
Interviewer: Did you—forgive me because my dates are not where they should be,
but did you go to Cuba?
No, I was not in the league at that time.
Interviewer: Okay, was there any unusual place that you went beside just to South
Bend and Kalamazoo. Was there any particular place that really sticks out, maybe
New York City or someplace like that?
When I played on tour there were a lot of places, and Washington was one of them, and
New York.
Interviewer: Washington D.C.?
Yes
47
�Interviewer: What was your impression of Washington? This is has got to be—I
remember when I first went to Washington D.C., it‟s amazing with all those
monuments and all that, and you were a young kid.
I know, and you know, they kept us so busy playing one game here and moving into one
game there, that I wasn’t really impressed too much with a lot of cities. I liked the fact
that I had been there, and we did see a lot of the country. 18:05 When we were on tour
we went over a hundred thousand miles each summer, and played games, usually one
night stands. It took us all the way from the Midwest, down south, back up to the east
coast, and then we went up into Canada. So, we went across the border into Canada, and
those are things that never would have happened in my lifetime.
Interviewer: If you were a banker.
That’s right, yeah
Interviewer: What was it like down south?
Different than the way we live, but nothing sticks out in my mind that—where the people
were so—I think the people down south are really nice people, where I can’t always say
that when you get to big cities. 19:04 You know, you get to New York and Newark
and some of those big cities and everybody’s-- it’s a busy life, it’s a different life style.
Interviewer: Did you have hecklers?
Yes
Interviewer: Like what? Do you remember? Probably in New York
Yeah well, I just—I can’t tell you what I---anything that sticks out in my mind.
Interviewer: But, you did get heckled, and there were people that would yell out.
48
�“White girls can’t play ball”, you know, and stuff like that. Of course I think they change
their mind once they see us play, and that’s when it comes about, you know. They can
talk and holler all they want, but once they see the game they know better. 20:00
Interviewer: What was the process of getting out of your contract with Kalamazoo,
or did it just end and then you just decided not to renew, what happened?
They sent me a contract and I just returned it and said I wasn’t interested.
Interviewer: Your coach didn‟t contact you or say, “Why aren‟t you going to do
this?”
No, it went back to the business manager and they probably had enough players that they
didn’t worry about it.
Interviewer: How did you find out that the league folded?
Well, living in Kalamazoo I was able to be up on the latest news with that, and I was
rooming with one of the girls that was playing. We roomed together and then when I
stopped playing ball we still roomed together. I went to work and she went to play ball,
so I knew, because I was still friends with all the girls. 21:02
Interviewer: What was your reaction?
Well, I just couldn’t believe it, but I’m sure the ones still playing ball couldn’t believe it
more than me, and I was stunned. I thought they’d still be playing.
Interviewer: Did you have any emotional reaction? Were you angry or sad or
anything like that?
No, because I wasn’t part of it anymore.
Interviewer: Did you miss it?
49
�Yes, but I did go back into softball, local softball in Kalamazoo, so I was still playing,
and then we started playing basketball, so I was still active. Then I got into bowling and
some of the other sports.
Interviewer: So, sports have been a major part of your life.
Yes
Interviewer: Let‟s talk about the aftermath of playing baseball. 22:02
You‟re
working at the bank now, and what was the next major thing that happened in your
life?
Well, I still would have been in Kalamazoo, but my mom got sick, back in Muskegon and
my three sisters that were still home got married and they went away with their husbands
to the war. So, they all left town and my mom wasn’t well, and that’s when I decided I
better quit my job at Comerica and go back home and see if I could help.
Interviewer: So, what did you do? What work were you doing back home?
Well, I worked in a bank.
Interviewer: I see, so you just found another job in a bank.
The vice-president there got be a job back in Muskegon, so I knew when I went home
that I already had a job, and then I lived at home with my folks, and there were still some
of the kids’ home, the younger ones.
Interviewer: What happened to your older sister that was playing baseball? When
baseball was over with what did she do? 23:01
She stayed in Rockford the first year.
Interviewer: Rockford, Illinois?
50
�Yeah, that’s where she ended up playing ball, so she got a job over there and things
weren’t working out right, so she came back home and I got her a job in the bank, so then
she worked at the bank for twenty-five years after that, so that was good for her and then
she got settled down.
Interviewer: Did you start a family?
No, I never did. I don’t know, I guess because I came from a big family I never felt like I
missed anything. We always had little kids around, you know, and by then we had nieces
and nephews and my life was already full.
Interviewer: Looking back, now we had talked earlier about when you played
baseball you really had no idea of the effect that your actions, and the actions of
your fellow ball players, as women, were having on this culture and on the way
women play sports. 24:10
Now, go to any high school in America and you‟ve got a
girls baseball team, a girls basketball team and whatever. When you were growing
up that didn‟t happen, that didn‟t exist at all.
No
Interviewer: So, here you are working in the bank now, the league is over with,
you‟re going on with your life, there‟s your family, there‟s families around you,
when did you start thinking—when did you start becoming aware of the effect that
professional women‟s baseball had? Was there any, even in the fifties and into the
sixties, was there any idea that there was some affect that you had?
No not really, it took about twenty years after our league folded and then we started
having reunions and then things started happening where then we got inducted into the
Cooperstown Hall of Fame. 25:10
51
�Interviewer: When was the first reunion that you can remember, do you remember
that?
I believe it was 1980.
Interviewer: So, how did you find out there was going to be a reunion?
They had one of our girls out of Kalamazoo, and she started it.
Interviewer: Do you remember who it was?
June Peppas, she had a print shop, in fact, she really lived in Allegan at that time, but she
go everybody’s names and addresses and people that she didn’t have, somebody else
would help her find them. They’d say, “Oh, I know so and so and I know where they
live, or I have their address”, and she formed the first reunion, and we went to Chicago.
Interviewer: How did you find out, did you get an invitation in the mail? How did
you find out?
She sent out invitations and planned the whole thing, with help. 26:04
Interviewer: I want you to think about this now. What was your reaction when you
opened up that piece of paper and this has been twenty years? You haven‟ played
baseball professionally, you left early and you open this thing up and they‟re saying,
“We want you to come”.
I thought, “Great, I get to see all the girls again”, and I had friends still in Kalamazoo, so
we talked to each other and I went down to Kalamazoo and we rode together to Chicago
to the reunion. I rode with other girls who had roomed with us before, and it was just
great seeing everybody after all those years.
Interviewer: Can you recall any of the conversation in the car going up? You must
have had—the anticipation alone of seeing all these people you really cared for and
52
�had a major impact in your life, what was that like being in a car driving to
Chicago? 27:00
Well, it was, “I wonder about her and I wonder about her. Will she be there, or is she still
around, or what does she look like?”
Interviewer: So, you arrive by car and there‟s what, three or four of you?
Yes
Interviewer: You‟re at the hotel where you‟re going to have the reunion. Do you
recall walking into the lobby? Tell us about that.
Oh, it was great, and there were people all over that had already gotten there, it was
wonderful, you could not believe it.
Interviewer: Did you recognize people?
Yes, most everybody
Interviewer: But you were a little bit older at that time, but not that much really,
but you recognized people huh?
Yeah, and there was one girl everybody was looking for who was famous, Dotty
Schroeder, she was on the cover of a men’s sports magazine back in those years when we
played ball, and she was beautiful. She was one that I had roomed with in Kalamazoo,
but when she walked into the hotel—everybody was waiting to see when Dotty would
come. 28:08 she walked in and everybody just stopped talking and were just looking.
She wasn’t anybody that was forward, and she just stood there and was starting to get
embarrassed. It was only for a few seconds, but it seemed like a long time. I said,
“You’re just as ugly as you always were”, and that cracked everybody up, you know, it
was like break the silence, you know, but that started everybody.
53
�Interviewer: Why was she kind of—because I remember from what I‟ve read and
the research I‟ve done, always the focus was on the team, it was never about
individuals. Not like Mickey Mantle or any of the baseball players that you—the
male baseball players. How come she stood out? 29:01
Well, she was always one of the best, and there were others like that, Doris Sams, played
with Kalamazoo, and she was another one, a great hitter, a great fielder, and a pitcher, she
could pitch too, and she was one of the famous ones, and we had quite a few of those.
Interviewer: But for some reason Dotty Schroeder, for you, for all of you, seemed to
be the one everyone wanted to see there.
Yeah, I think everybody thought, “I wonder what she looks like now?” I don’t know if
you ever said it, but you could tell that’s what people were thinking, and she looked the
same, she looked the same.
Interviewer: I mentioned to you earlier, before the interview, that I‟d been to
Flying Tigers reunions, and I‟ve been to reunions where there are these very close
knit people from the WWII era. You were there for three days?
Yeah 30:01
Interviewer: And you had dinners and what not, and was there talk about liking it
so much you want to do this again?
Yes, that’s when we decided we would do it every five years, and we did do it every five
years for a little while, but then we stopped and we went to two years. Well then it
wasn’t too long and now we do it every year. It depends on the location of the reunion,
how many girls we get to come. If it’s centrally located we get them from the east and
54
�the west, where if you have to go clear to California, sometimes you don’t get the girls
from out east. You know, not everybody can afford to do this.
Interviewer: After the first reunion, which was just kind of thrown together
because this one woman went through all the hassle, and I know what it‟s like to
have to put on one of these things, you made it more formal and you have a board of
directors, and you ended up as an association. 31:04
Yes, after that
Interviewer: So, then individuals were elected to the board and they would decide,
“Okay, we‟re going to have a reunion in Milwaukee”, or we‟re going to have a
reunion here or wherever it is. Did you vote on that?
A lot of it depended on if somebody volunteered to do it, and you’re talking about a lot of
work. You’ve got to be in a place where you have help, and you can’t go to some far out
place where you’re the only one. You can’t do it by yourself. Where like going to
California there must have been ten or twelve girls out that way, close by, that could help
and put on the reunion. We went to Fort Wayne for quite a while and we had many
reunions there. You’ve heard of “Run Jane Run”?
Interviewer: Yeah, sure
When that was coming into town, in Fort Wayne, we’d be part of that, because our girls
would get into the golf tournaments and stuff. 32:02 That worked for a lot of years,
going to Fort Wayne, but we had people there to do that.
Interviewer: After the first reunion, when did it start to become more of a public—
when did you start becoming more into the public? When you were in baseball,
obviously, you were part of the public, because the public came out to see you and
55
�they wanted your autograph and all that, but then you had this twenty years where
you‟re working in the bank and your sister‟s working in the bank, people are
married and they‟re having kids and all that, and now you have this reunion, and
people have reunions because they want to get together and share the experiences
they went through, so that‟s something special. When did you start to realize that
the public was starting to, then or even earlier, know that this was something
special?
I think the public didn’t get involved until we went to Cooperstown. 33:03 We were
admitted into Cooperstown, and of course, that became public all over the country, and
then that’s when Penny Marshall got a hold of it and said, “Let’s make a movie”.
Interviewer: Let‟s back up just a little bit. Did you ever have—I can tell just by
talking to you in this interview that you didn‟t exactly toot your own horn and say,
“I‟m this and I‟m that”, it‟s just not you, but did people know that you played
baseball when you were in the bank, for example? Where there people that come up
to you and asked for your autograph?
Back then they weren’t asking for autographs. People knew and it wasn’t something you
talked about every day, and of course, for a lot of years I was still involved in softball, so
I was going to tournaments and going out of town to play ball, but being from Muskegon
and living there and having a team there at one time, those people always knew that we
played ball with the girls. 34:04 So, that was always a known fact, because we were
local.
Interviewer: But the change really happened when you got inducted into the
Baseball Hall of Fame. How did that happen?
56
�I think one of our women started working on that and then when it became known, there
were several players that wanted to be inducted all by themselves. They thought they
should be the only ones that should be in it, not the rest, well people that were running it
didn’t agree with that. They said, “We’ll all go or forget it, we’re not going to work on
it”, so it had to be all of us, which was only fair, because whose going to go around and
say this one deserves to be there, but not that one.
Interviewer: So, they set a date for the formal induction. 35:00 It was going to be
at the Baseball Hall of Fame and were you invited, or was it open to anyone that
wanted to go, or how did that work out?
Well, we were invited by the hall of fame, but that’s still—you had to go there and pay
your own expenses, and somebody had to set up all this stuff to have our big banquet
there, and of course, we had to start working on places to stay. You’ve been to
Cooperstown probably?
Interviewer: I have not, but—
It’s very small, just a one horse town and they had not one third enough places. Well, we
ended up having like seven hundred people, and they couldn’t believe it. They just were
amazed, which they have been ever since, because of how popular the whole this is since
we’ve been there. 36:01 They get more inquiries about our league than anything and
they tell us that themselves.
Interviewer: So, you get the invitation that you can go to the induction and you
went, right? How did you get there?
I flew and I stayed—we didn’t have a place in Cooperstown, we stayed about twenty
miles north, and I stayed with three other girls.
57
�Interviewer: What about your sister?
She wasn’t able to go at that time. She did not go, but I went there and stayed with
friends and then we had to drive back and forth to Cooperstown, but we had to do that
anyway. We’ve been invited back since then and we’ve stayed at Syracuse, and drive in
to Cooperstown.
Interviewer: Okay, tell me about that first day of walking into the Hall of Fame.
What was—I saw the movie and I know in the actual movie they used a different
room, it wasn‟t the actual place. 37:04 But, give me a visual, show me what you
were seeing. Was there an actual ribbon cut and all that kind of thing? Well, tell us
about that.
To tell you the truth, it was so crowded, there were so many people, you just couldn’t
even get up close to see the exhibit and everything. You had to go there another time in
order to appreciate what was there, but it was fantastic. The people just were just all over
the place and Cooperstown could not believe it. It was like we took them by storm, you
know, and they still tell us that. I’ve gone back a couple of times with different groups,
eight of us one time and four of us another time, and they always tell us how wonderful it
is. That we’re there and that the people just love it and everybody that works in town
says the same thing. 38:03
Interviewer: I know it‟s going back a ways, but I‟m trying to get inside of you for a
moment. You‟re very modest, and that‟s very obvious from this interview and from
the times that we‟ve talked on the phone and what not, but please, just for the sake
of this moment—you‟re there, you‟re being inducted as a team, not you alright?
What did you feel like?
58
�Oh, I thought it was fantastic, and it’s beyond your imagination. Nothing you would
have ever dreamed of. All the years you played ball you didn’t dream of that.
Interviewer: Let me ask you what might seem like a stupid question. Why do you
think you were inducted, not you, but the team, why were you inducted into the
Baseball Hall of Fame?
Well, I think it got to the point where they had to do something about women in sports,
plus the Negro leagues. 39:03 That stuff had been put on hold too long, because the
Negro league could say the same thing. We’re, like, in the same boat they’re in and I
think that they thought it was time. And I know they’re not sorry at all that they did it, at
Cooperstown, because it has really made their place a lot more popular.
Interviewer: Did you get a chance to talk to some of the other ball players, the
women ball players, about their feelings being inducted into the Hall of Fame?
Oh yeah, everybody just was amazed, you just can’t believe it.
Interviewer: You keep saying that part and it‟s interesting that you do, because you
played the game because you loved the game, and you never thought in your wildest
dreams that it would go anywhere beyond that. 40-:02
Never
Interviewer: But, now you‟re in the Baseball Hall of Fame, which somebody‟s
telling you, whether you want to know it or not, they‟re saying, “This is something
really special”. Did it finally dawn on you that you were actually part of something
that‟s part of American history?
Well, that started the ball rolling and then the movie came along, right from that point on,
and once the movie came out that just broke it all and it’s just been wild ever since.
59
�Interviewer: Then the world knew about it, and the world recognized something
that you didn‟t even recognize, that you did something extra ordinary with your
teammates.
Yes, and we hear about it every day now, and we go out and tell the history of our league
to different groups, talk to young kids, third graders, little girls that play ball, give
autographs, you know, give them—and of course we have our own baseball cards, and
we pass out baseball cards. 41:08 Anybody, any age group that we go to, just can’t stop
thanking us enough for what we have done for women’s sports.
Interviewer: Going back to baseball cards, and I want to get back to this, but did
you have baseball cards when you were playing?
No, that came about after all this. I can’t tell you what year, but it hasn’t been all that
many years, maybe ten or fifteen at the most.
Interviewer: What do you think was the overall effect of this league , looking back
now, and now you‟ve gone through this period where you‟d played ball and didn‟t
realize you were doing something extra ordinary, and now the world is telling you
that you did something extra ordinary and it hasn‟t gone to your head I noticed, but
let‟s really take this moment. 42:08 What does it mean to you, personally, what
does it mean to you, this experience you went through and now you‟ve seen the
reaction of the entire world? They made a movie about it. When you were
seventeen and going to the movies, the movies were up there, you weren‟t a movie,
you were just a seventeen year old. What does it mean to you to look back now?
What does it mean to you, this whole experience you went through?
60
�Well, I don’t know if it means a lot in my life. I mean I don’t have any gains by it or
anything. I enjoy being popular and that everybody else enjoys it. I like to talk about it
and give them all the history that I can give them; I enjoy that part of it. I never sit back
and think, “Look at me, I’m something”. 43:04 I’m just glad I’m part of it and can do
what I can do for girls in sports today.
Interviewer: On a final note, I always ask this of every veteran, if they‟re in battle
or not in battle or from that period of time. Looking back, I know that you said
thought this interview that you really didn‟t know that it would ever turn out like
this, that this would have that kind of positive—and that‟s what it comes down to, a
very positive effect on women and little girls and what not, and in your wildest
dreams you said you never knew this was going to happen. Can you, somewhere
inside of you, can you—is there any glimmer that somewhere back then you knew
you were doing something that might turn into something like this? Was there any
glimmer at all back then?
No, no
Interviewer: But, were you that surprised when it happened? 44:04
Yes, I worked many years after all of this and never talked about it with people. But,
being local, people knew about it, but it was not something you discussed. You never
said, “Look at me, I played ball, I played pro ball”. It was just a part of your life and it
was in the past. If they didn’t know about it, no problem, but in Muskegon lots of people
knew about it, so it was hard to get away from it, because people who had gone to the
ball games still were living. You would, like, go to the store and you’d see fellows that
had been going to the ball games, and they’d yell at ya, “Hey”, and they remembered that
61
�you were one of the ones that played ball and that’s before any of this stuff ever came
out, and I really enjoyed that with people, or even today with people that are older, but
they were young kids then. 45:08 They would say, “I remember, I used to be part of the
gang that went there”, so it’s fun.
Interviewer: One final question and it‟s going to be a tough one, because I‟m pretty
sure you don‟t think in these terms, but can you try on this one? What do you think
the legacy of the women‟s baseball is, what‟s it left behind, what‟s the legacy of what
you all did?
I hope we opened up sports for girls. I hope we helped with the Title IX. I feel like we
did, the way sports has taken hold in all the high schools and college, for women, and I
think we opened the door, and I think they’ll tell you that, a lot of the other ones that are
in pro sports will tell you that. 46:10 I was in Cooperstown on a visit when a lady was
there with her grandchildren, and she was part of Title IX from the very beginning. She
said, “I’m just amazed to meet you girls. To think that I met you and you were part of
that league”. She said, “I don’t believe it”, and here she’s worked on Title Nine all her
life and she was just dumb founded that she was introduced to us. I think that’s a great
feeling.
Interviewer: Well, it‟s been an honor talking with you.
Well, thank you
Interviewer: Thank you so much.
I appreciate it 47:00
62
�63
�64
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_DCook0176BB
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Cook, Doris (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
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Cook, Doris
Description
An account of the resource
Doris Cook was born in Muskegon, Michigan in 1939. She grew up in a large family and played baseball and other sports. When a women's professional baseball team moved to Muskegon in 1946, her older sister tried out and joined the team. Doris then joined the league after finishing high school in 1949, and played first for the Springfield Sallies, a barnstorming team, and then for the Kalamazoo Lassies and the South Bend Blue Sox, and played through the 1953 season. She initially expected to be an outfielder, but when she had some problems running, she was converted to a pitcher, and was a pitcher throughout her professional career.
Contributor
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Michigan
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2010-08-04
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4fd79f3a42b80b163012ce9af72c0643.mp4
3ef4b44d77cb66a1b3a556ae5e1aa501
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d466a4826d54deafe6f3032ecc42eec8.pdf
d9f9aa41ac8efd6f78dba6ee36c1b405
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Joyce Hill Westerman
Length of Interview: (54:24)
Date of Interview: August 7, 2010 at the Reunion of the Professional Girls Baseball League
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Lindsey Thatcher, November 9, 2010
Interviewer: “The date is August 7, 2010. We are at Detroit Michigan at the reunion of the
All American Girls Professional Baseball League. We are talking today with Joyce Hill
Westerman and the interviewer is James Smither of Grand Valley State’s Veterans History
Project. Now Joyce, can you start with a little bit of background about yourself? Let’s
begin with where and when were you born?”
(00:51)
I was born in on December 29, 1925. I might add that I lived through the depression. I mean, to
me it wasn’t a big deal but to my parents it was a big deal. My father lost himself in the
depression so I was in 6th grade, no 1st grade in the city, I was 6 years old and I went one year to
school there and then we moved out of the county. My uncle had rented some land and there was
an old house on this land and half of it was falling down and we lived in 4 rooms and I had 4
sisters and or 3 sisters and 4 brothers and my mom and dad and we lived in that little house that
was not much. We did not have any running water, we did not have any electricity, and we had a
potbelly stove to heat the house. We had to carry the water in from the water tank and also to
take a shower we had to heat the water over the fire and stuff like that. Well I was a little bit of a
tom boy and I played a little ball in Kenosha in school (02:00) and I used to be embarrassed at
first to go up and hit because I hit better than most of the kids. And I started playing ball when I
was about 5___ pounds so I played next door, but when we moved in to the county it was a
whole different story. So I played mostly with all my brothers and sisters and stuff, and it was
really a good thing for my parents because for us kids we loved it. We were out in the county and
we could run, we had a big garden and I think that’s how we survived really, on the garden and
so forth. Then as I grew up we went to a one room school with one teacher, actually the teacher
taught my mother, she graduated from that school and I graduated from that school with the
same teacher, from 8th grade from that school. So that in itself was an experience. I had played a
lot of ball in school and stuff but then as I grew up and I graduated from my school when I was
17, and you couldn’t get a job until you were 18, now they didn’t have any (03:00) competitive
sports to speak of in high school and junior high school but I did manage to go into the city and
visit my aunt one night a week so I could play sports at the junior high school. Well then, after
high school of course I finally, by the time I was 18 I got a job at the American Motors, they
were making airplanes. Well we did have kind of a scrub team from the national holders (?). And
that was the extent of pretty much of my baseball experience except with playing with my
brothers and sisters in school and stuff like that. So anyway then in 1944 that was the first time
that I got to see the Comets who were one of the regular teams of the league. And it was really
�funny because they had a bunch of injuries on the team and they had called somebody. Who? I
don’t know. But anyway they picked two girls from Kenosha to try to fill in. (04:00) Well
luckily I was one of them and got to start with Hugh Rights a friend of mine who was a ball
player. Well I got a uniform and everything for that series and all I did was get up and pitch
some runs and I fouled the ball and I could…I thought oh my heavens it’s girl’s baseball. What a
dream this would be? You know, always wanting to play professional ball and you know being a
Cub fan it was the big thing you know, so anyway it was really funny because living on the farm
and so forth by that time we had moved on to my grandmother’s farm and lived upstairs by the
time I was in junior high school so we had all the conveniences then but my Dad still didn’t have
the money where I could run back and forth from Kenosha to play ball and stuff like that. So
anyway I tried out and like I said I got up a hit and fouled the ball and that was wonderful
because they were so (05:00) fast that I couldn’t see the ball anyway in my estimation. And I
tried out, they had try outs that fall in Kenosha and it was about 50 girls so I tried out there and I
made the try outs and then the following week they had try outs where they were seeing and
some of the girls went there and it was another I think another 50 girls there and I tried out there
and there were only 2 of us girls out of all those kids that made the cut to go spring training. Like
I said I was working at American Motors or National Motors at that time, I was making a dollar
an hour and so forth and you know after that I went to spring training, and then I found out that I
made the cut and I would be going to Grand Rapids. Well I signed a contract like $55 a week.
Well my dad was making $40 in the plant you know at that time and I thought “Oh wow, I’m
going to be making more than my dad,” and you know they weren’t sports people. (06:00) But
my mother, they didn’t say I couldn’t play or anything and it wasn’t you know something like
that but I think they knew how much I loved baseball you know, so anyway it was a little scary
for me in spring training because I had to take the train heck I had never been out of Kenosha
hardly you know, so I got on that train and got to Chicago. I made it through someway I don’t
remember how, but I got there. And like I said, I made the cut. My first year I went to Grand
Rapids and it was really cool, I had a lot to learn. Not having, I mean I had the ability but I didn’t
have the experience I had a lot to learn and of course when I went to Grand Rapids Mickey
Maguire was the captain at the time, and I was the catcher at that time and I didn’t get played too
often but I learned a lot from her. She was a competitive let me tell you, she was but that was a
really wonderful experience to be behind her. And I did, one time I was catching (07:00) and I
did catch my finger. The first knuckle was lying on the back of the second knuckle and doctor
came down and pulled it back into place you know and stuff like that. Anyway from then, I went
to went to South Bend the following year and then I went on and played for 8 total years so, it
was a wonderful experience. You meet so many wonderful gals you know that you get very
close.
(07:32)
Interviewer: “Ok, that’s a really good overview or starting point here. Now I’m going to
back us up a little bit.”
Ok.
Interviewer: “And have you fill in a few more pieces of this process. Why don’t you, the
other thing I’m not quite getting out of your stories, where did you go to high school?”
�Oh, I went to a Kenosha high school in Kenosha.
Interviewer: “So you were able to go into Kenosha at least at that point?”
Yeah, yeah. Actually we had to get up early in the morning and ride in when my dad went to
work (08:00). Way before any other school started, and we stayed about oh half a mile or so
from it and he would take us into high school as well. We would get up and in the morning go in
with my Dad in the morning and stay up at my aunt’s until it was time to go to school, and then
walk to school.
Interviewer: “Ok, and the school, did they have were there any kind of sports there, or gym
class or anything like that?”
The school wasn’t didn’t have anything.
Interviewer: “Nothing at all.”
No, like I said junior high school had gym once a week, I mean we had gym but nothing after
school.
Interviewer: “Ok. And the Comets were a pioneer team and they would’ve been in
Kenosha in 1943.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Did you go watch them play?”
No. I didn’t watch them, and I didn’t even remember seeing them. We didn’t get the paper, you
know. And it was just all new to me I heard about them, but not a whole lot you know. And so
no, when they called for me to come into their try out I was surprised I was brave enough to do
it. I was pretty shy at that time.
(09:06)
Interviewer: “At that time, alright. And then, when you are doing the try outs, what did
they actually make you do?”
At the try out? Well we had to bat, and hit and then field you know you caught during the try
outs, and stuff like that. But we didn’t do a lot of exercises and stuff it was mostly batting and
catching and stuff like that you know. Mainly if you are a catcher they had you back there
catching but that was pretty much, we didn’t do many exercises or anything like that so 50 girls
you know so hit around with all of them.
Interviewer: “Alright, don’t catchers have a lot sort of to learn about how to call a game
and that kind of thing? Now you hadn’t played a lot of organized ball.”
�Right, and you know the reason that I did that was because I thought well I think there is one
position that they might need more than anybody else and it would be catching. And I thought
well I can do that. (10:00) I can throw a little pitch you know and I thought, well that’s
something I can do so that’s why I tried out for there, I thought that was my best chance. I was, I
was probably a little chunkier at that time and that was another thing, I wasn’t one of the real fast
girls that run and stuff like that and I thought, I think that’s my best chance. So that was why I
tried out and I did hard too, you know. And that’s why I said being out batting late it helped.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then, tell me a little bit more about how the spring training
worked. There actually still doing that at Wrigley Field there was the first couple seasons
they, what’s the process there? Now the people that come there, are they already signed
into the league? Or are they still eliminating people?
Well some of them were were, I mean they had been they had been there for 2 years. So a lot of
them were regulars, but then us rookies had to fill in for the regulars you know, and that was put
you know in a hard spot there (11:00) because they were so good and we were just so
inexperienced and trying so hard you know. But we did all kinds of exercises and stuff. Being to
the farm I worked on the farm and I did just about anything you could do on a farm. Milked the
cows you know, but I, you know I was in pretty good shape even though I was a little bit heavier.
And I, so it didn’t really bother me, the exercises and stuff. But still, at the end of the day you it
would almost like you could crawl back to the hotel you know, so and it was after the exercise it
was bad and the usual, much like the men’s you know.
Interviewer: “Ok, and then how do you find out how you made the cut and you are
assigned to a team? What happens?”
Well, there, well I can’t remember exactly but I know they read it off or we, I can’t remember if
we read something or, they just notified us and I don’t remember exactly how.
Interviewer: “Ok, so what was your response when you found out that you had sort of
made it?”
(12:01)
I was elated. I hadn’t quit my job or anything; I had to taken a leave of absence. So I went back
and I had to quit my job and stuff, before I started playing ball.
Interviewer: “Alright, now this is still fairly early in the history of the league. How much of
the rules and regulations and etiquette training and all of that kind of stuff, when they
teach you how to behave and so forth, how much of that was still in place when you
started?”
Well when I was there in 45, I did not go to charm school. Now the gal that went with me said
that she did. So I don’t know how I got out of that, but somehow I missed that. So they must
�have had it in 1945, but I think that was the last year because the following year it wasn’t in
effect. And we thought it was ridiculous to put on eye shadow and lipstick and put on our masks
and then go out and catch, you know? Play any position and you are perspiring (13:00) it’s bad
enough the way it is, all of that gear on you and stuff. But I knew the girls had to keep their hair
short and keep it curled. And anyway, down down to your neck there and so forth. And I wasn’t
much, I always had really short hair, much as I do now as I grew up. Then of course I had to
learn to curl my hair so it would look nice and then you would go out to practice in the morning
and you had your hair curled and when you come home it wasn’t curled, you’d curl it up again,
and I got so tired of curling my hair that after I was out of baseball it didn’t take me long to have
straight hair.
Interviewer: “Alright, and they had the dress code regulations? The skirts and…”
Yeah, yeah. No slacks, and things like that. And we would go on the bus and if you had to have a
potty break or something you would put your skirt over your slacks or take them off and if you
had shorts on you know you would have to cover them up (14:00). But one thing that I didn’t
like and I heard about the Comets and so forth was the skirts. I thought oh my god I couldn’t
show my legs, and I came from a town that was very modest and so that was hard, that was
something I thought I couldn’t do that. But once I played in the, the one series I thought well I
guess I could wear these uniforms. I never knew what to do people.
Interviewer: “Alright, now you were not too much of a runner so you didn’t get as many
strawberries as some of them did?”
Right, I got my share. But you know, they would send me, there would be a shock to the pitcher,
I would make second base but yeah, you get your share. But I didn’t steal like a lot of the girls.
Interviewer: “Alright, tell me a little bit more about that first season in Grand Rapids as
sort of a learning experience for you, you are the backup catcher. What kind of
accommodations did you have? Where did you stay when you were up there?”
(15:05)
We stayed with private families. And that was real nice you know, but we didn’t always have
transportation so it was like you had to take a bus or take a car. I didn’t have a car until 1948 so
that was a little difficult you know. Getting there in the morning for practice and then go home
and shower and so forth and go back and get ready for the game at night that was kind of a
bummer but you know it all worked out but…
Interviewer: “About how far from the field were you living from do you think?”
I don’t think I can remember.
Interviewer: “Were they playing at Southfield at that point?”
�Yeah.
Interviewer: “Ok, so that’s still in town right?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “Rather than Bigelow field which they played at later. Alright. Ok, and then
what was it like going on the road with the team?”
Well that was really super, I mean you know, at first when we went to spring training and from
there we went to Grand Rapids we took trains and that was really a bummer (16:01) because we
had to get on a train and it was it was one of those old fire trains and you would get all dirty and
then you always had a layover in in in Chicago and you wanted to go enjoy the scenery and
everything when you went back and forth, and we spent a lot of time you know, just getting back
and forth and it was during the war too and you know if if there was military men on the train
you were supposed to stand up and let them have the seats but of course the guys were always so
nice they always let you sit down which was very nice. So when they got the buses we were just
elated by that time I mean oh my goodness. To just hop on a bus you know was wonderful.
Interviewer: “That first season in Grand Rapids you were still riding trains most of the
time?”
Yup, yup.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then how much supervision did you have? How much
supervision did you have? How much did they look after you or regulate what you did?”
(17:00)
Well if you had a sore arm or any kind of bangs or bruises or anything you know, they would
take care of you. I know when I have a picture of I was in, we were we were practicing on some
field I don’t know where it was. Whether it was spring training, I think it was part of spring
training. And I had, I was playing in the offense catching flies and stuff. And I had stepped and
sprained my ankle really bad. So the chaperone came out there of course and took care of me.
And we had to put ice on it and all that stuff. Well then she said well you have to use heat. Well
evidently I must have been able to stand a lot of heat or something because I burned my ankle
something fierce and I had to heat it and it was going to make it well in a hurry you know and so
that wasn’t too pleasant. But had our share of, you know got spiked several times and stuff like
that. So they were wonderful really. But my first year I might add that I was so shy I don’t know
if I said 3 words the whole year. I’d listen and I didn’t ever have much to say you know, and I
kind of got over that but it took awhile. You know because I was just a _ you know.
(18:13)
�Interviewer: “Ok, ok you got to the end of that first season. Now, did they tell you that they
wanted you to come back or what?”
No, I was just went home and when they wrote in the spring training you know I went to South
Bend.
Interviewer: “Alright”
And that was fine. It didn’t bother me. The only time it bothered me was when I was with some,
I had met some wonderful, really close friends. We lived in, we lived in a house and a lady went
away for the winter and she let us stay in her house. It was 4 of us there and we got to be so close
you know. Well we were going on a road trip and we were loading up on the bus actually and
they called me over and told me it was I was traded to Racine (19:03). And at that time I thought
Racine was one of the better teams and I thought oh gosh you know, how will be accepted in a
team like that that won a championship? You know and stuff and I was kind of worried. And I
cried a lot, and I hadn’t before ever ever cried, couldn’t. And at that time I had a car so I had to
drive wherever it was to be the Racines so that was a bummer right before the bus left to go
somewhere and then told that you had been traded you know, so. But after that it didn’t bother
me.
Interviewer: “Alright, after your first season did you get more regular playing time as
catcher?”
Yeah, probably, well yeah probably even the second year I was behind Bonnie Baker as catcher
and it took a couple of years or so before I got to being got more playing time (20:04) you know,
but you got wait your turn you know. And you know I always thought a lot of the girls have so
much experience of course they had teams out there that played a lot so I just waited it out. So I
just kept trying and working and catching a lot batting practice. So…
Interviewer: “K, did you get to pitch hit or come into the games?”
Oh yeah I would a lot of times. I was a pretty good hitter. And yeah I did pitch you know, I’d get
my chances if we were ahead they put me in so I would get the experience and yeah that never
bothered me. I was just there and I was playing you know, and hung in there.
Interviewer: “Now you played with a number of different teams. Who do you think were
the best pitchers that you got to catch?”
Well the underhand pitchers was Connie Wisniewski (21:01) she was terrific. She was really
fine. Jo Kabick was on the team and was an underhand pitcher and she was fast, she was a really
good pitcher. Then, then later on when we went overhand I admired Jean Faut she was a great
pitcher and you know it was funny because I could hit Jeannie like nothing for some reason and
it used to get to Jeannie and she said she told them one time that it didn’t matter what she pitched
I would get a hit you know. But she was a great pitcher.
�Interviewer: “Alright, when you were catching her, who called the pitches? Did she decide
pretty much what to pitch, or did you just know?”
I called the pitches pretty much, when she was there. And we just got along so good and I think it
was Dottie Mueller that she pitched a golden game one time and I got her and you know I did
call the pitches (22:00). I used to sit in the dug-out you know when the other team was warming
up and stuff like that and I would watch the hitters, where they hit the ball and how they hit the
ball you know and kind of study them so I would kind of know where not to pitch them you
know.
Interviewer: “So it may be that you and Jean were pretty much on the same page.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Because when I interviewed her, she was pretty sure that she was picking
most of her own pitches.”
Well you know, she shakes it off and maybe she did, you know it’s been a long time. But I know
for the most part I…
Interviewer: “Right, but you and she did essentially the same thing. Which was to study the
hitters and then to get it so you got that together.”
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “Now, one of the things about the league was there were certain women who
were really good base stealers. And, were you, how successful were you at keeping them
under control?”
I’ll tell you what to be honest I wasn’t the best catcher to pick off people (23:00). Now I had this
thing when I was in Grand Rapids, I used to throw a little bit more side arm and I had a much
better arm. Well when I got there they said oh, you go to learn how to throw overhand like this.
So I got so that I practiced, I did have a good sore arm from doing it in Grand Rapids my first
year, but I got the hang of it. But what it did was made me conscious of I had to bring my arm up
to throw the ball and I lost the timing of it and I just couldn’t overcome that so I wasn’t the best
in my mind I was always you know am I going to do this right?, or something you know and it
probably, I wasn’t the best catcher to pick off people. I was good at something but just to be
honest.
Interviewer: “Now once you got to be playing fairly regularly, were you a pretty consistent
hitter?”
Yeah, yeah. I was a pretty good hitter considering the batting averages that we have you know
the girls. I was right up there, not real close to the top but my last year in South Bend was my
best year around 77 so…
�(24:12)
Interviewer: “Now would you get extra base hits, would you get doubles and triples?”
Yeah. I never hit a home run. I can’t believe that because I was so slow. That would mean that I
would have to hit it over the fence and we didn’t have that many fences. We did in South Bend
but we didn’t in Grand Rapids. And I could do it in practice but I never did it in a game.
Interviewer: “Alright, now you were, what was the total length of time you were playing?
You started in really in ’45 in terms of full seasons and… ”
’52, eight years.
Interviewer: “Okay, that’s a good chunk of time in there and a lot of different things went
on in the league at that time. One of the things was that you kept moving spring training
around.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Your first spring training was Wrigley field.”
(25:00)
That’s right.
Interviewer: “Where did you go in later years?”
Oh gosh. We were in Mississippi, Indiana. We went to Florida. And I don’t know, so many
places I can’t remember all of them.
Interviewer: “Did you make the trip to Cuba?”
Yes I did.
Interviewer: “Alright”
That was quite a thing. My first airplane ride and first of everything and that was a lot of fun. I
mean, but I wasn’t too crazy about the food over there. So I ordered some leche, that’s milk and
at lunch time they would have ham sandwiches and stuff, American you know, milk…and I kind
of liked that. And they had fried bananas and powdered eggs and stuff that I didn’t eat…
Interviewer: “Alright, now how was playing in Cuba different than playing in the states?”
Well actually it was very much the same.
Interviewer: “Well I’m thinking in terms of the fans and the atmosphere.”
�Well the fans, yeah yeah. They were something else. Actually we knew more people over there
than we did in America so that was really interesting (26:00). So being in a hotel at that walking
on the streets you have to be with somebody at the time. And we had a curfew. And we couldn’t
go out of the hotel you know, because it was too dangerous. But anyway it was kind of comical
we had, I have a picture of it, we had we had the long rope had been hung from the 3rd floor and
it had a basket on it and we would lower that and the guys down stairs would go and get us some
cokes you know and we would pull it up and I got a picture of that you know. But my daughter
brought them up when she was here some of them, I remember that you know and sloppy joes. I
have pictures of course. I have a lot of pictures.
Interviewer: “And what sloppy joes?”
Well it was, they use a lot of their drink, what is it? Rum, they had a lot of rum and stuff, but I
wasn’t a drinker so I had coke, never was one to… I have never had a drink in my life.
(27:00)
Interviewer: “Alright, then what did you remember about Pascagoula? What was that
like?”
I remember going into the barracks when we were at an army base and opening the door and turn
on a light and cockroaches running everywhere you know. And we used to call it Cockroach
Boulevard and it was something else you know, it was something else. We slept with the lights
on but that was something else. But our managers at that time when they saw the situation they
came back with this, I forget what kind of fish that was red...no that’s not it.
Interviewer: “River snapper?”
Yeah, something like that. And they cooked it outside on a fire pit and that was the best fish I’ve
ever…that was good.
Interviewer: “Now when you came back from Pascagoula did you just go to your
individual teams or did you stop and play along the way?”
(28:04)
We paired off with another team and then we would stop at various places. They had a book and
we would play at exhibitions. Gave us the practice to play with teams and people could see what
kind of ball we played and in many places the people there were so great you know. That one
place, I think it was North Carolina a guy took us out on a cruise it was so nice, a nice man you
know took us out on like on a boat and we went on a cruise and stuff like that. But they always
wanted us in parades and stuff like that. You know, it was, it was fun. We would kind of laugh
amongst ourselves, we’re not nothing you know we’re just ball players you know. But it was a
great experience.
�Interviewer: “Now were you with the group that played at Griffins Stadium in Washington
and then when up into Yankee stadium? You didn’t do that part?”
(29:00)
I wished I had, but no.
Interviewer: “Ok, so what parts of the country did you tour through then, because you
were in the south?”
Through the south North Carolina, South Carolina, or Virginia or whatever…Mississippi.
Interviewer: “Ok, did you have one season that you thought was probably sort of your best
season or your most successful one, or either individually or as a team?”
Well I don’t know. Yeah I guess you know as far as the friendships and stuff that was one thing,
but of course I was fairly happy with my last year when we won the championship because I had
never won a championship before, but then in ’52 we won a championship then and that was just
an amazing you know. Although at that time you know I had been married for 2 years and after a
game I would go right home you know. I didn’t participate with the girls a lot and stuff. So I
probably wasn’t as close to them as I was with some of the other teams before.
(30:06)
Interviewer: “Now were you still catching at that time or had you changed positions?”
No, at that time I was playing at first base. I played the last two years.
Interviewer: “Now would you rather have kept catching or was it better at first?”
Well I like catching better but first base was ok too.
Interviewer: “Why did they shift you out from catcher?”
I don’t know. Maybe because, maybe because I didn’t throw well enough.
Interviewer: “Alright, well let’s see what was it? Well I guess when you had been growing
up and had been playing you would play anyplace, well first base you got to field grounders
and that kind of thing…”
Oh yeah, we’d play short stop or play the outfield you know. A few times I played the outfield
sometimes they would just stick me in so I could play. I was a pretty good hitter so they would
put me in and I liked that.
�Interviewer: “Ok, well you mentioned that you got married during your career, which was
a little bit unusual. Tell us a little bit about that, how did you wind up getting married?
And what, how, what happened after that?”
(31:04)
Well yeah, well I had been going with my husband for about, I probably met him about a year or
two into when I was playing ball. And he used to come to Peoria and places to see me play and
stuff like that. And then of course then when I would go home we liked to dance and we would
go to a lot of dances every Saturday night and stuff. And then finally he in ’50 we got married so
I was playing in Racine, well no I wasn’t but anyway a bunch of the girls from the Racine girls
came to the wedding and it was real fun we had a big wedding. So we had been building our own
house before we were married because I said my parents lost their house and I saw what they
went through and I always said if I’m going to get married I’m going to have a house. So my
husband and I, he hadn’t done much building, (32:00) he had some cows and stuff but he hadn’t
done much building. But I had worked on the farm. I had shingled roofs and I had made cement
block. My Dad was always going to build a house and he never got to it but I would make
cement blocks by myself you know. So I had more experience. And we bought a place you know
and we did all, we built the house ourselves and we did all the cement work. I mixed it with an
electric mixer I mixed all the cement and Ray would install it. And I ended up bricking the whole
house and we had a very very nice house. We had hardwood floors. We did have, my uncle was
a carpenter so we did have him that was quite a job in itself you know. Ray learned and did the
electrical and the plumbing and I was right there to help with whatever, I helped with the roof
and putting in the cement floors. So we built part, we built 4 rooms and it was like a little doll
house. It was really cute, all we needed was utility you know. And then we added on 5 rooms
and we didn’t move in until it was done and we did have it plastered. We did all the dry wall but
we did get it plastered.
(33:14)
Interviewer: “At the beginning of that you mentioned that you had a book on how to build
a house?”
Yes, how to build a house.
Interviewer: “Alright, and you just followed that.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “How did you pay for it?”
Well I was working then again at that time American Motors. When I left South Bend, people
from the South Bend from the dealership there got me a job again back in American Motors. So
when I went back I had a job. So I worked there for several years and we were paid for it as we
�went along. Because we didn’t have much money and they wouldn’t give you a loan. So then we
paid for it as we went along. And we never owed a penny on our house.
Interviewer: “Were you able to save any money from when you were a ball player?”
(34:01)
Oh yeah. I was a saver. I used to save you know. Well you could get a meal for a buck then you
know after a game and stuff. Yeah I was a saver and that was one of the reasons that I could con
my husband into letting me play ball I could save my money you know and you could save yours
and we can add that 5 rooms on you know. So he was, he was a wonderful guy and very great so
he went a long with it. Which was so...yeah.
Interviewer: “Now did the league have a policy about married players? Were you treated
differently?”
Not really, except for riding the bus. I know Karl Winsch was our manager at the time and Ray
came down and it wasn’t too long after that we were married and we were both one city to
another and Ray was down there to visit and he wouldn’t let me ride with him. He said no, you
can’t ride, you have to ride in the bus because of insurance and blah blah blah you know and so
Ray had to drive by himself. I thought well come on.
(35:02)
Interviewer: “And then did you still have to stay in the team hotels with the girls and that
kind of thing?”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “So he was on his own there?”
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, now why did you wind up leaving the league? Because you finished
after ’52.”
Mainly because I had been married for 2 years and things, you could see that things were going
to slow down. We weren’t going the way we did Ray coming over and driving back and stuff
like that. So there was one time that we didn’t we had to wait for our bus and stuff and I thought
I had been married for 2 years and it was time and it’s not fair to Ray and you are going to have
to hang it up sometime. But then, so then I called it quits. But I went on playing since and I
played with my two daughters until they went to college. I even played when they were in
college, we played summer ball. You know, so I never quit playing. Actually I played quite a bit
so.
�(36:03)
Interviewer: “Alright, so now so did you go, did you have continue to work or were you
eventually able to just to stay home or…?”
Well yeah, I worked for I guess about 5 years until when Janet my oldest daughter was born I
had to you know. And I was working nights, and Ray was working days. Well you know how
was it? He was working the nights and I was working the days. So Janet the baby, Janet the baby
would sleep during the night when I would get home from work should we rearing to go you
know. So I didn’t get much sleep. Well one day I was giving her a bath in the morning and I fell
asleep giving her a bath and it scared the tar out of me. So I quit after that, I took a leave of
absence, I quit. So then I didn’t work for, until the kids were in school. Then I worked part time
in the post man’s office. I used to fill in for her some. Then the last six years I worked full time
in the postman’s office and I retired from there.
(37:16)
Interviewer: “Alright, now as time goes on and you’ve got your daughters growing up, do
your daughters play sports or did you encourage them?”
Oh yeah, both of them played. Well Janet was more interested in music which she was a good
ball player but my youngest daughter was an excellent ball player and she’s a phys ed teacher
today. She was an excellent, she could have made the, actually they had a team in the Peoria
after that we went down when I was coaching and we went down and played them and lost to
them but I think we lost one to nothing actually. But Judy played in the, what was it? Applehorn.
Irene Applehorn was signed down there and she said you know you should Judy try out for this
team. Well you know, she was only 15 and I said oh she’s too young. Come on. But I couldn’t let
her go, so.
(38:13)
Interviewer: “As you are kind of going forward in time there are starting to be more
opportunities for women to be involved in sports and Title 9 comes into and stuff. Were
you following that or paying attention to what was happening?”
Not, not a whole lot. I mean, I mean we had more competitive sports. Although when my kids
were in high school they just started a basketball and volleyball or something, there still wasn’t
softball or anything in high school. But then when you went into college she played, the
youngest one played volleyball and softball and then I coached at the college area she was in,
close to Kenosha. And she, Janet went on into music.
(38:58)
�Interviewer: “Okay, back when you were playing in the league, did any you think about
what you were doing as sort of pioneering? Or doing new things for women?”
When I came home from the league I had, I had 8 balls one signed from every year that I played.
I had a bunch of different program books from all the various towns. I had contracts; I had 2
uniforms, a jacket with that went on the league at the time. I take the uniforms and stuff like that
so I had all that stuff and I threw it into a closet and forgot about it, you know. Well then when
my kids got to be 7, 8 years old one time I dragged them out put the uniforms on them and took
pictures of them you know. So they knew a little bit, I never really talked about it, but all the
years I played nobody really…you know and then it seemed like we had our first reunion in 1982
(40:00) and when I got that letter it had a picture of a baseball player on it and it was just like
they were calling you for spring training and you are getting your contract. I opened that letter
and I was just so excited you know. That we were going to have a reunion. Well I went to the
post office and I had, you had to pick your spot when you wanted to take your vacation at the
beginning of the year and that was it. So I had taken vacation a different time already with Ray,
and so I went up to them and said well you know this reunion is coming up and I am going to
that reunion I have to have off. You know I have to change, and at first they said well that’s too
bad you had your vacation picked out, we can’t do anything about it. I says, well then I quit. I
would’ve quit too. No question in my mind. Well anyway, it didn’t take them too long after that.
Then I found out that I could take off of work you know. So I went to that reunion and of course
that was something else. And you would have to look at people they would have a little picture
from when we played and we would say oh that’s who you are. You know, just like we knew it.
Now we see each other more often.
(41:19)
Interviewer: “So you’ve really been involved in this sort of league organization to regroup
since pretty much its inception. Now were you involved at all in the steps surrounding the
movie?”
Oh yeah, oh yeah. Actually we went out to Cooperstown (New York) for the unveiling of our
display for the first time and that was something else. I think they said there was around 400
people there. The guy said he never saw so many people for something like that you know at the
museum there. So that was really a thrill to do that. So then when they came and said they were
going to make the movie oh my god we were like wow (42:00). You know so then they were
going to have these try outs for the movie and they said whomever would like to try out for the
movie if you can still play ball come to Smokey, Illinois. Well Anna Hutchinson who was a great
pitcher and lived in Racine, we were pretty good buddies by that time said we can play ball, heck
we can go down to Smokey. So we went down to Smokey and of course Madonna was there and
other ball players were there and stuff. And what was really cute was I went up and asked
Madonna for an autograph and I got a ball. So I got an autograph from Madonna and I didn’t
realize that nobody else but the ball players could go talk to the movie stars you know. Well we
�all had shirts on that we could tell so in the meantime I met this young man there and he was so
elated that Madonna was there he just wanted to say hello you know (43:01). I said to him, I said
“Gee I went up and asked for her autograph and I don’t think it’s any problem. Just go up and
ask her she’s very nice”, you know. Well he starts walking up toward Madonna and there were
men all around her within about 2 seconds they said “Where do you think you’re going?” You
know, I felt so bad I thought oh my god I told the poor guy that you could go up and ask
Madonna for an autograph. They just chased him away they didn’t do anything you know but so
that was all of you know. But then they were looking for the way I understand it that we could
play the part of the older players later you know, but you had to have the same eyes, the same
hair this ball of wax and it didn’t work out you know. Then we heard that they were just going to
take a few people extras to Coopersville. Well then our advisor said that I could that she had
talked to Penny or somebody and said you know all these 49 people came out for the play offs. I
think you should take them all (44:06). Well then they decided to take them all. So then Hutch
and I got to go there for the movie. But what the sad part was that the reunion at that time was
the same time as the movie in Florida. So that was the first reunion I was going to miss. You
know, and that kind of broke my heart, but you have to make a choice and I think we made the
right one, it was a fun time. We played ball all day and stuff like that. And she took hundreds of
film you know and one thing that I thought was great was on the scene when they came back to
the hall of fame but my friend there one day she forgot her glasses. Well they’re filming and all
of the sudden they say cut and Madonna or or...what’s her name? Our producer,
Interviewer: “Penny Marshall”
(45:00)
Penny Marshall, I’m sorry. She goes up and says you don’t have your glasses on. I mean, you
know here’s this whole bunch of people and she had to go get her glasses on before they could
start the film. She was just a stickler for…you know just oh just perfection. And then the thing
that killed me was when we had to cut the ribbon to the hall of fame, it took us 2 days to get that
right and we were there until I don’t know what time in the morning before she was satisfied,
and we were all going home that day. We were pretty concerned you know but…geese, she was
a perfectionist. But it was neat, we stayed in the motels there. And we got to see a lot of friends
again, all my friends were there. So that was really, it was a good time. But like I told Penny one
time, I said well I said it was a great time I talked to her but I wouldn’t want to be a movie star I
says it’s too hard. You spend all that time doing it over and over you know so. Then Penny, she
really put us on the map.
(46:18)
Interviewer: “Now if you look back over your playing career, what affect do you think
getting to play professional ball, what affect did that have on you or what did that do for
you?”
�Well I’ll tell you, for me it made me more outgoing type of a person. I had more confidence in
myself you know and I just figured it wasn’t anything I couldn’t do. So when we could build a
house, we could do anything. Anything you want to do you can do in this life if you just work
hard and keep working.
Interviewer: “Alright, well you got a great story, you do a great job at telling it.”
I was going to tell you about where I saw the movie.
(47:05)
Interviewer: “Yeah, do that, yes please.”
After we were in the movie, then my daughter lived in Europe for 7 or 8 years in Germany, and
we had been over there several times. Well we went over there, it must have been ’91 or ’92
when the movie came out and so Janet had a radio station or something and said you know about
me being in the movie and that I had played in that ball. And so Frankfurt called us, called Janet,
they must have gotten her number. And said that they had already shown the movie at the theatre
in Frankfurt, and she said Piper’s her daughter and they said would your mother come to the
movie and she can bring her family and she said and talk to the people afterwards after the movie
you know, and we will bring the movie back. So we said, oh sure, so we went to Frankfurt and
they took us all through the studio (48:00) and showed us a bunch of stuff and that and we went
to the movie and we talked for a little bit afterwards with the people and stuff but the thing that I
thought was neat is that my family over there got to get in on this movie thing you know because
they didn’t get much news and stuff from at home you know. Where my other family, my other
daughter was right there in Kenosha and she lived with me kind of. So then this reporter came
over to interview us and Piper’s daughter. And my grandkids were pretty small then and I had
brought one grandchild with me from Kenosha and so they, we were throwing balls and doing all
kinds of things and they were pitching to me and we were hitting and she took all these pictures
and everything and you know or movies and they put it on the TV and of course they made it
sound like I was Tina Davis because I had (49:00) come from a farm and I had told her all that
stuff. You know, but I had also told her that this was a composite; you know it’s not about me,
it’s not about, it’s about all the players and everything and I had never liked that when one would
take credit for it you know. So when she made the movie the tape, it made it sound like I was
Tina Davis you know, and I was pretty embarrassed about that, I didn’t want to show anybody.
And she did a really good job, so anyway later somehow she contacted me and sent me the tape.
So I have a tape of that interview in the in Germany you know. So that was a thrill. And then too
they took pictures and that and put them into the Stars and Stripes in an article about all the
league and about my name. So we were somewhere with Janet and some guy walked up and said
you look so familiar were you in the paper? You know, and here he had seen it in Stars and
Stripes you know. I thought that was pretty great.
�(50:01)
Interviewer: “So when you are being interviewed in Frankfurt was this by sort of by the
American military bases there and stuff?
Yes there was from the military bases. She was in the military and actually she tried to contact
me after she got out of the military and she called Dolly White and for some reason Dolly
wouldn’t give her my address and stuff and we lost track. And I went she was supposed to move
to Warsaw. So my husband and I were going up that way to see my brother and we stopped there
and tried to find her name in the book and stuff and we couldn’t find her. I felt bad about that,
she was a nice gal and she was really interested in the league and she wanted to stay interested
you know and we just lost out on her. You know, so that was that was a real experience that I
never would have thought I would have. Oh and I was on a marquee at a theatre. It said: “Joyce
Hill a Western Leader,” you know and I thought oh my god.
(51:00)
Interviewer: “You’re a star. Did you have something else? Oh you have a…”
Oh a friend of mine is from a neighboring place there and plays with the Kenosha Kings and he
hits. He comes back every year from Australia he went over there to coach and its softball or
baseball for the girls. So then after a couple of years the Australian girls came up here in
Kenosha were in the World Series thing. So this summer since they’ve been back again in to play
once again, and married a girl from Australia, she’s young. Oh they’re bringing 5 or 6 girls over
from Australia and they are going to make a tour of Rockford and there’s another team, I don’t
know much about it, we just found out about it at the meeting but they are going to play those
girls. I met the head of it (52:02). It was Ron, you know my friend. Everything just sort of gels
somehow you know? From one thing to another, so I had talked to Ron and he gave me a
schedule and said that you’re invited to come to all these things you know the Cubs games, you
know go see the Cubs. He said I’ll pick you up and take you and bring you back so that’s
another thing these girls are doing which is just super. It call came kind of from the background
of the All Americans. And I think that is one of the things that I’m the proudest of. You look out
how these kids started in little league as little girls you know, and they are great athletes. That’s
nice.
Interviewer: “Alright”
Oh in Milwaukee, yeah (53:00). They have a wall of fame and they were honoring some of the
Wisconsin girls. One every year for awhile and they would have a luncheon and we would get up
on a plaque. Now we have new owners in Milwaukee and they don’t do as much for us. So they
just decided that they just said that they put all the Wisconsin people on a plaque you know. But
that was really nice you know ...they gave us a Milwaukee blue jacket, it was nice yeah. It was
nice being there. There were several of us that would go there.
�So many things that, and it all evolved from the league so, it’s all tied together.
Interviewer: “It is and it’s kind of good to see more things coming back around kind of
getting more connecting women back to base ball, and more people playing. And you get to
sort of be connected to them. Alright.
Yeah right. One thing that I am really proud of, it’s my family. Two girls (54:00) and I have 8
grand children. Jan has 4 and my other daughter has 4. And most of them, almost all of them are
really good athletes. Dance, you know and that sort of thing. I’m very proud of them. Next to the
league that’s the greatest thing that ever happened to me.
Interviewer: “Alright, well thank again for coming in and talking to us.”
(54:24)
��
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_JWesterman
Title
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Westerman, Joyce (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
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Westerman, Joyce
Description
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Joyce Westerman was born in Kenosha, Wisconsin, in 1925. She grew up there and played sports whenever she could. She was playing ball on a company team in Kenosha when she was offered a chance to fill in for an injured player for the Kenosha Comets in 1944, and then joined the league in 1945. She played for eight seasons, including stops in Grand Rapids, South Bend, Racine and Peoria, primarily playing catcher.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Language
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eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b89abfdde8eb0e3b2d427f9d0e37e585.mp4
772cfd10ed490a12676842267d5dc9ac
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fbe8bde51cf8d2bda2cddde31cc25030.pdf
d32158bc2e6dff00da37d1a1c28e7d05
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
GLORIA CORDES ELLIOTT
Women in Baseball
Born: Staten Island, New York, September 1931
Resides: Staten Island, New York
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 6, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, March 12, 2011
Interviewer: “Gloria can you begin by giving us some background on yourself? To
start with, where and when were you born?”
I was born on Staten Island, New York on September 1931
Interviewer: “And what did your family do for a living at that time?”
My father, he worked, as a carpenter in New York City and my mother was a homemaker
with eleven children, you know, it was about all she had time to do.
Interviewer: “Did your father have work during the thirties? Could he keep you
fed?”
Yes he did and he was very good at that. He had a good job and the money at that time
was nothing like today, but it was sufficient for that time period.
Interviewer: “How did you wind up getting started in sports?”
Well, I was one of eleven children, I have five sisters and five brothers and my three
younger brothers were very close to my age, so I spent a lot of time with them. My two
older brothers, they were professional baseball players and I use to watch them all the
time. One was a pitcher and he showed me how to throw different pitches. 14:03
Interviewer: “And did you get to play baseball with them?”
I got to play with my younger brothers and our friends in the area. You know, just pickup games—choose sides and find an empty field where you could play and that was
1
�about most of it. We didn’t have anything for girls in that time period. Girls were just
not allowed to play ball or be on boys teams and there were no sports for girls in the
schools.
Interviewer: “By the time you got to the high school level there were some girls
sports and opportunities that weren’t there before.”
Not at the school I went to, no, and I don’t think any of the schools on Staten Island had
girls sports just yet.
Interviewer: “What about youth groups or things like that?”
Well, like I said, the boys, they belonged to the youth groups, the PAL, the CYL, and
they tried to get me on their team because I was their pitcher. The same thing there, no
girls were allowed. 15:02
Interviewer: “Ok, could you play other sports with some of these groups, basketball
or softball?”
Yes, they had basketball for the girls at the time at that was at the PAL center and I just
got to meet these girls through my playing softball in the street. Someone that was
managing the girls’ softball team asked me if I was interested in playing, so I said, “yes”,
and that’s how I met some of my friends from the other part of Staten Island. Of course,
we didn’t have a car and at that point we didn’t even really have bicycles, but you didn’t
really get to see too many people out of your own area.
Interviewer: “So, if you were going to go play softball with these people, how would
you get to the games?”
I did a lot of walking and if it was pretty far you could get a bus for five cants at the time,
so that wasn’t too bad. 15:56
2
�Interviewer: “Now, as you were getting into your teenage years, you’re playing in
different ways, did you know anything about the Girls All American Baseball
League?”
No, I had no idea of this baseball league, not until 1949. There were two touring teams
that were touring the east coast and they came to Staten Island and they played a game at
one of our baseball fields. It was advertised in the local paper, so a few of my friends and
myself, we went to watch the game. Before the game started they asked if anyone was
interested in trying out to come down on the field and they would take a look at you.
Interviewer: “So, you went to this game without even expecting to tryout?”
Definitely, just to watch a girl’s game that we never even knew existed.
Interviewer: “So, how do they handle the tryouts? What do they do?”
First he asked if anyone pitched with a baseball, knowing that not too many girls played
baseball, so I told him I did, but like I always say, if he asked if anyone could catch, I
would have said yes. It wouldn’t have been the truth, but I would have learned in a
hurry. 17:10
Interviewer: “So, what happened at the tryout?”
At tryouts he just had me thow a few pitches and he told me I’d hear from them and in a
few weeks I did. I received a contract and I was told to go to South Bend, Indiana where
they had tryouts for all the girls they picked up on these tours, so all the girls that tried
out like I did, were in South Bend, Indiana in May the following year just before spring
training started. The managers down there would watch us for whatever positions we
played and they could choose what they needed to fill their teams. 17:50
3
�Interviewer: “Now at that point were their some people who were getting cut and
didn’t get to make the team? If they got the kind of invitation you got were they
probably going to play?”
No, everyone was still afraid of being cut whether you signed any forms of any type, you
were still eligible to be cut, but I was put on the Muskegon Lassies team and they put me
on a bus to where Muskegon had their spring training and Max Carey was manager of the
Fort Wayne Daisies at the time and that’s who we were having our training with.
Interviewer: “So, you had the two teams training together?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Do you remember where it was you were doing that?”
Cape Girardeau, Missouri
Interviewer: “What was at Cape Girardeau?”
Actually, not too much, coming from New York. One of the big rivers there, I believe it
was the Mississippi and I said, “Wow, I get to see the Mississippi River”, and that was
nothing I expected to do. 18:57
Interviewer: “So, what was it like for you? A lot of the women who joined the
league came from small towns or the country or wherever, but come from the big
city, so what sort of adjustments did you have to make when you left home and went
out there?”
Not really too much, I mean—see, New York City is five boroughs and Staten Island is
more small town than the other four boroughs, so it wasn’t that much different.
Interviewer: “Describe, a little bit, the experience in Cape Girardeau. What was it
like? What was the weather like? What were the facilities like?”
4
�The weather was nice down there and we trained outside except for one day we had rain
and we had indoor facilities to work in, in case of rain. You couldn’t do as much as you
did outside, but it was sufficient. 19:53
Interviewer: “All right, now, when you were down there in training, were all the
veteran players there too?”
Yes, they were there already.
Interviewer: “Were their any particular players or people who paid attention to
you or game you some coaching or were you just all working individually?”
Are you talking about before or when I got there?
Interviewer: “When you got there.”
Before, I had some pretty good coaching. When I got there they just, you know, had us
work out with the veterans at our own positions. They would have us slight pitch to the
veterans and that was kind of scary because these girls were good and I didn’t have any
formal experience what so ever, but it worked out ok. After we trained for a couple of
days we would have games against Fort Wayne and I was complimented by Max Carey
at that point because he came up to me in the hotel after the game and he said, “I know a
lot of you young ladies don’t know if you’re going to play or be sent home, but don’t you
worry, you will not be sent home, because if they release you, I’ll pick you up”, so that
felt pretty good. 21:07
Interviewer: “What pitches did you throw?”
My brother taught me to throw a curve ball, a knuckle ball; I had a pretty good fastball,
and once in a while what we always called a drop, which drops straight down, not break
sideways.
5
�Interviewer: “Once you completed training in Cape Girardeau, did you
immediately go up to Muskegon or what did you do next?”
We went up to Muskegon and the season started.
Interviewer: “Did you do any barnstorming along the way? Did you play games in
route or just go on up north?”
I think we went right up to Muskegon. We finished all of spring training and went right
on up to Muskegon and the season was just getting ready to start. 21:51
Interviewer: “What kinds of rules and regulations did they have in place still for
the women on these teams?”
They had a lot more before I got there, thankfully, but we did have rules. We had to
always appear in feminine attire in public and you weren’t supposed to swear or drink or
smoke in public, which I didn’t do any of those things anyway, I was only eighteen and it
didn’t affect me. There were rules to always be on good behavior, they didn’t want
rowdiness and stuff like that. They wanted you to appear in public as a lady and that, you
know. We always say they wanted us to look like ladies and play like men.
Interviewer: “Did they have a chaperone for the team?’
There was always a chaperone, yes; in case a girl got hurt she would be there to take care
of her. She took care of our housing for us and when we were on the road she would take
care of the rooms and make sure everybody had their rooms and in the hotels they could
make sure you met your curfew and stuff like that. You had a curfew after games, which
was plenty of time. 23:04 On the road there wasn’t too much you could do anyway.
Interviewer: “Did you like the chaperones? Were they good people?”
6
�Oh, they were fine, and some of them were ball players themselves, so they knew what
we were going through and how to handle everything and they were like a second mother
to us.
Interviewer: “Do you remember playing your first regular season game?”
No, because I wasn’t in the starting rotation, and I was always told that I was going to be
ready to be the relief pitcher certain nights and I just never really got into the game. I
must have gotten into five games in Kalamazoo because there was a record for five
games. At that point we had moved to Kalamazoo, Michigan.
Interviewer: “You were at Muskegon first, right?”
Muskegon, and I guess they weren’t doing well as far as drawing crowds and they were
looking for a new city to try to play in and they tried out Kalamazoo and drew very good
crowds there. 24:12 I guess they talked it over and Kalamazoo became the Kalamazoo
Lassies. They were still going strong after the 1954 season and we would have kept
playing. We were doing very well financially.
Interviewer: “What were the fans like? What do you remember about them?”
They were great. You know how some people thought they would heckle and stuff like
that, and that may have happened in the beginning, but like I say, I wasn’t there and
fortunately or unfortunately, however you want to look at it, I missed a lot of that. I
never met a fan that, you know, would heckle anyone or ridicule or make comments that
we not complementary, but I thought our fans were great. 25:03
Interviewer: “And what kinds of people liked to come to the games? Were they
older, younger, kids, men, women?”
7
�You had families coming to the games, you had men, you had young boys, teenagers and
the young girls were very interested and their parents would come with them, so it was
really a family atmosphere.
Interviewer: “How long did you play or what years did you play?”
I played the last five years of the league, 1950 through 1954.
Interviewer: “Ok, and over the course of that time you moved around a certain
amount? You mentioned having your team move from Muskegon to Kalamazoo,
but did you play for other teams as well?”
Yes I did, after we moved to Kalamazoo, it was a couple of weeks after that, I was told
that Racine needed a couple of pitchers and that I was being sent up there because they
were making trades for infielders, which Kalamazoo needed. That’s the way they, at that
point in time, tried to keep the teams balanced, which would make for better baseball.
26:05 Make it more competitive rather than have one team loaded up like the Yankees
you know, and they kept it pretty good that way.
Interviewer: “Now when you went to Racine, was that when you really got to pitch
more?”
Yes, I was put right in the rotation up in Racine, so that was a good move for me at that
time.
Interviewer: “Do you remember any of the starts that you make or the games that
you played when you first started?”
I know I did pretty well—I pitched the—I started ten games after that, I had five wins and
five losses, but that doesn’t really tell the story. I had pitched some good games, but I
8
�pitched against some pros, who were also very good pitchers, and I thought that was good
for me at that time. 26:55
Interviewer: “Did you have good defense behind you?”
Yes, in Racine I had very good defense behind me. In Kalamazoo we had a lot of rookies
and I think the reason for that was, the man that took over was from the touring teams
and he said that his girls on tour could compete in the league, so he picked up a lot of the
girls that came up from the tour and made it into the league and he picked a lot of those
up with me, someone who hadn’t played at all, but you know, it was just one of those
things. It wasn’t a good offensive team basically and defensively we had some very good
players.
Interviewer: “But you would have some good infielders to spare to send over to
Kalamazoo when they sent their extra pitchers.”
Right
Interviewer: “What kind of living arrangements did you have in these places?”
We lived with host teams, with host families, sorry. That was a job for the chaperone.
They would advertise for anyone who had extra rooms and would like to host a ball
player and the chaperone would have to check them out and be sure they had the rooms
and that they weren’t putting some of their own family member out. 28:17 I guess that
was a big job for her, but in Kalamazoo I don’t think you could go wrong no matter who
you stayed with. That was a fantastic town.
Interviewer: “Now, was Racine different as a place to stay?”
No, I stayed with a good host family there. The woman had an older son, he was in the
navy and there was another ball player there at the time, so there were two of us staying
9
�at that house. I was just like—in Racine though it was harder to get around and you
needed a car or had to know the bus routes and things like that.
Interviewer: “When you were living in Racine, could you get a day and go down to
Chicago or did you just pretty much stay there?”
You pretty much stayed there. The only traveling I did was when we were traveling on
the road. 29:01
Interviewer: “All right, and how did they get you from place to place when you
were playing on the road?”
Well, we used basically Greyhound buses or that type of bus to get us back and forth.
When we got back to Kalamazoo, the following year, they had their own bus, so we had a
little better bus ride because they took some seats out and put a refrigerator in and had it
loaded with soda and then in the back they put a table and some of us liked to play cards.
I liked to, but I couldn’t get to the back of the bus because I would get motion sickness,
so I had to have the front seat.
Interviewer: “So, did you spend the last part of one season with Racine?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Did they move you someplace else the next year? Then what
happened?” 30:00
Over the winter Racine moved to Battle Creek, Michigan, so I reported to Battle Creek
and I guess, maybe close to halfway through the season I was asked to go back to
Kalamazoo and I said, “that’s fine with me, you want me to play here, you want me to
play there, it doesn’t matter as long as I’m playing”, so I did, I went back to Kalamazoo.
The next three years I stayed with Kalamazoo.
10
�Interviewer: “Now, while you were with Kalamazoo the second time, did you now
get to start on a regular basis?”
Oh yes, I was right—the starting pitcher right from the beginning.
Interviewer: “What do you think was your best season?”
My best season was my third season, 1952. I pitched twenty-four consecutive complete
games.
Interviewer: “Did you have a sore arm or anything else like that?”
In the five years that I played, I never had a sore arm and never had any sores or
problems physically. 31:04
Interviewer: “Twenty-four complete games, I guess back then you had major
league pitchers who would do that kind of thing?”
They did the same thing back then, they pitched the complete games unless they had to
make a change, and today it’s just a six-inning game.
Interviewer: “You held-up that much longer. Did any of the teams you were with
manage to get to a championship game?”
Kalamazoo won the championship the last year, 1954.
Interviewer: “What do you remember about that season?”
That was a very good team. The last two years they had, they might have even started the
year before, they started bringing in some better ball players because two teams had
dropped out of the league, so there were some good ball players around and you could
pick-up good ball players and split them between the six teams that were left. We had
Dotty Schroeder, which was one of them, and I’m trying to think, Fern Schollenberger
played third base, I mean, these were girls that were excellent ball players. 32:10 Dotty
11
�Naum, she could pitch, she could play short stop, she was a catcher and she was just an
all around good ball player. Dotty Schroeder was another excellent short stop and when I
pitched against her in Fort Wayne I just admired the way she played and I was very
happy to have her on the Lassies, so that helped a lot.
Interviewer: “One of the things that characterized the league a little bit was that
you had some people that were really good base stealers. They could get on base,
now, what could you do to limit the damage? Did you have a pick-off move?”
Well, there again, I was fortunate—before I came out to my first tryouts in South Bend
there, three of my ball players from Staten Island were working out, two pitchers and a
catcher, and like I said, my brother showed me how to throw the pitches and then I was
just throwing the ball I wasn’t pitching. 33:14 The pitcher I’m going to talk about
showed me how to hold runners on base and how to—there were two ways a base stealer
could get a sign from you that he could go, and one was when you put your knee up off
the mound or broke your hands from the glove and he said you have to learn to do both of
them together because one or the other and their going to get a jump on you, so I learned
that and I was very successful at holding runners on. To say no one ever stole, because
they did, because we had some very good runners, but I learned that and he taught me
how to follow through on a pitch, which is probably why I never had a sore arm. His
name was George Bamberger who was the pitching coach for the Baltimore Orioles, was
successful and also became a major league manager. 34:06
Interviewer: “He managed the Brewers.”
The Brewers and the Mets.
12
�Interviewer: “You mentioned earlier something how you had gotten some pretty
good coaching before you went off to spring training. Was that what you were
talking about back there?”
Yes-- I couldn’t have gotten better coaching, for pitching anyway.
Interviewer: “So, did you have success at either picking runners off or holding
them on?”
Yeah, I had success at picking them off at first and I have to give my catcher the credit
because they had rifle arms and by me getting the ball to the plate quickly and them
having such good arms, we did throw a lot of good runners out.
Interviewer: “So, did they learn maybe not to try to steal against you quite as
much?”
Possibly
Interviewer: “Did you have much occasion to hit the ball?”
Well, we batted, and we didn’t have designated hitters, so we got up and I didn’t have a
great batting average. At one point in one season I was over three hundred and wow, it
was even printed in the paper, but it didn’t last too long. 35:16 I could hit a ball, but I
wasn’t a hitter. I could hit a lot of ground ball outs and I had my share of strikeouts, but I
wasn’t a total flop.
Interviewer: “Do you think that it helped you that you really learned to play just in
baseball rather than softball?”
Well, I learned softball first just playing in the streets and playing without gloves my
hands took a little beating once in a while, but I think it helped because you had to teach
yourself and learn as you went along.
13
�Interviewer: “But when you were playing with the boys, or whatever, was that
always softball or was there a point when they were playing regular baseball?”
Oh no, we played baseball and we would challenge other parts of the—of course there
were a lot of younger people my age on the island at the same time in the area where I
lived. It was very well populated and you could just go maybe two or three block and
challenge another team and that’s when I had to pitch for the boys because I had the
curve. 36:19
Interviewer: “when you played some of these other neighborhood teams, did any of
them have girls playing for them?”
No, when I see them now, or when I see them or when I seen “The League” when it first
came out, actually when the movie first came out I would meet them maybe in the street
or somewhere and they would tell me—especially one guy, he said he was so
embarrassed when I struck him out because he didn’t strikeout that much, but now he
says to his children and grandchildren, “she struck me out”. 36:55
Interviewer: “Now you played to the end—would you have kept playing if the
league had continued?”
Oh yes, I was just getting started at five years. I felt like I was just getting started and I
would have played a good maybe five, six, seven years. I figured I would have at least
that much.
Interviewer: “How much were they paying you then?”
Well, they started us out at fifty-five dollars a week and supposedly they had a maximum
of a hundred dollars a week and after my third season, that’s what I was making.
14
�Interviewer: “Now, was that pretty good money at that point? Better than you
might make if you were staying home with a job?”
I was making twenty-five dollars working forty hours a week in an office in Manhattan,
so fifty-five dollars was much better than that.
Interviewer: “Now, if you hadn’t had the chance to go play ball what do you think
you would have done in those years?”
I did work in the off-season. I worked back in the city, but that became a hassle too
because I had to take a bus from the island, a ferryboat, then the subway and the same
thing coming back home and that could be like three hours traveling a day, so I probably
would have looked for something right on Staten Island. 38:09 I did work in a
supermarket when I went back to Kalamazoo and I could have done different kinds of
job. I’ve worked in an office, I’ve worked in stores, and I would have found something.
Interviewer: “In the last couple of seasons there, did you have any indication that
the league was having trouble and that this might not go on forever?”
Actually no, I thought just that they might build it up again and get another team and
possibly build it up again. What was written in the paper about the league breaking was
that they were just going to take a year off and try to find new cities and if they could find
new cities it would be a novelty again in that city, and possibly draw enough people to
support it, but it just never came about, so that was just the end of it. There was no
discussion of any sort after that because they couldn’t find the cities. 39:08
Interviewer: “So, what did you do then once the league folded?”
I went back home and I worked in a store on the island and my brother was stationed in
Battle Creek and when he came home for the Christmas holidays that year with his wife,
15
�he told me that my good friend Dotty Naum got married and had a little baby. He said
she would like for me to come and stay with her for a while, so I did, I went back to
Battle Creek, I stayed with her because her husband was on the road a lot, and we use to
go into Kalamazoo once in a while to visit the ball players because a lot of the players
stayed in Kalamazoo and went to work there. Somebody said, “Why don’t you stay here
and play softball? We have so many girls from the league on the teams”, and I said,
“yeah, but I don’t have a job or anything”, and one girl said, “don’t worry, the sponsor
will give you a job”, and that’s when I went to work in his store. 40:17 I was there for
like a year and a half and I’d be getting calls from home like, “When are you coming
home?” Finally I said, “I better go”. I was just going to go visit for a little while and
eighteen months was a little more than that, so I went back home and I went back to work
in the city, and like I said before, it just was too much of a hassle.
Interviewer: “Then did you have a long term career or did you get married and
have a family? What did you do?”
I got married in 1959, so I didn’t have that long of a career. I did work a few years, until
I became pregnant and then I gave up the job and stayed home to be a stay at home mom.
Interviewer: “Where do you live now?”
I live on Staten Island.
Interviewer: “So, there are still some people there that you grew up with and you
played ball against and all that kind of thing?” 41:08
Oh yes
16
�Interviewer: “Because you kind of stayed in the same place and some of the people
were people you played ball with, did the people you knew, or worked with, did they
know that you played professional baseball?”
The people that I knew did and my sisters and brothers, if they had a friend and introduce
me, they would tell them that I played professional baseball, and they would say, “oh,
you played softball”, and my brother would say, “no, she played baseball”. They never
heard of a women’s baseball league, just like I didn’t until they came to Staten Island, but
it was hard for them to believe.
Interviewer: “While you were playing, did you see yourself, or the league, in kind of
way as kind of pioneering or doing something?”
No, I didn’t, not at that point. I was having fun and I was loving it, and I never saw
anything like that and I never expected what happened to be so big. 42:05
Interviewer: “As you kind of get into the seventies and the eighties and so forth, you
get Title IX coming in and you get more emphasis now on getting girls sports and
this kind of thing, did you pay attention to the news of that while it went on?”
Yeah, because I became a coach for the girls at the Staten Island Little League, and I
started with the ten to twelve age limit and then they had the senior girls and they would
graduate and play from thirteen to fifteen and I would go on to that. I was coaching girls
softball down at the little league for about twenty years.
Interviewer: “And if you look at it now do you think the league itself, did it play a
role, or set an example, or do we just realize now just how unusual it was?”
17
�We just realized since it’s taken off, like with the movie and everything, how important it
was. We, like I said, all of us were playing there because we loved the game and we
loved to play it. It was an opportunity, you know, that not too many people had. 43:15
Interviewer: “Did you get involved at all when they were making the movie and any
of the event surrounding that? Did you get to do any of those things?”
I did go out to Chicago when they had the actresses out there and we would—there would
be about sixty of us out there and someone would be taking in field practice and some
would be in the outfield and some would take batting practice and we did just a lot of
different things. Then I was asked to go to the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown when they
were there, and my husband just had a hip replaced and he couldn’t travel and I said, “I
just can’t leave him home alone”, so my neighbors were telling me to go ahead and they
would take care of him, but it’s not the same. 44:02
Interviewer: “Have you gone out to Cooperstown since then?”
Oh, I go back there every year.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie its self?”
Well, when they first told us who was going to be in the movie, especially Madonna, I
said, “What kind of a movie are you making here?” They said they wanted to make it a
comedy and they wanted to make it interesting because to make a movie about baseball
wasn’t going to be that interesting because there is just so much you can do. They
wanted to make it a comedy and they did a very good job doing that.
Interviewer: “Did you think that any of the actresses you were working with got
pretty good at what they were doing?”
18
�Yeah, some of them were pretty good when I met them in Chicago and they worked hard
at it, as a matter of fact, they told us they were picked for their athletic ability before they
were picked for acting, 44:52
Interviewer: “Rosie O’Donnell, Madonna? I don’t know.”
Well, not Madonna, but Rosie O’Donnell was a good athlete, and a couple of the others,
but Madonna was—she came and she wasn’t supposed to be in the movie, she was
supposed to do the background music, and she got caught up in all of it and she loved it.
Being a good friend of Penny Marshall, she said she wanted to be in the movie, so I
watched her try to catch and throw while we were out there and everybody’s calling
attention to her, “look at her, she’s trying to throw and she throws like”. She doesn’t
know how, but we found out she was a very good athlete in itself. She took very good
care of herself, but she just didn’t play ball, but she got someone to teach her and she got
a very good job out of it. 45:47
Interviewer: “When you think back over your professional playing career, are
there particular moments or events that kind of stand out in your memory, that
come back to you a lot?”
I just think of the people that we stayed with and the people in Kalamazoo like the family
I stayed with. The woman was a retired schoolteacher and the husband was still working
at one of the plants in Kalamazoo. They had two grown sons who were out of the house,
so that’s how they had the rooms, and we just got so close to them that, you know, we
visited them when they moved to Florida. They wanted to meet my mother, so I took my
mother to Florida to meet them. People in Kalamazoo were always having something for
the team, either some sort of a cook out or barbeque or stuff like that. They were always
19
�doing things for you. You couldn’t help but like the whole city and I’m sure that went on
in the other cities, also. 46:55
Interviewer: “If you look back on it now, how do you think your time in the
baseball league wound up affecting you? Did you learn things or grow? Did you
change at all because you had that experience?”
I’ll tell you, I got over my shyness. I was very shy and of course with ten siblings, you
could talk to them all, but it was—like in school it was difficult for me to get up and read
a book report or something like that and it helped in that respect.
Interviewer: “And do you think you learned things about people and dealing with
people different from yourself and that sort of thing?”
Oh sure, you learned that there are so many different types of people in different—I use
to make fun of the way the girls from the south talked and they use to make fun of me. I
said, “I don’t have an accent, you do”, but it was nice to meet people from all different
parts of the country. That was an education in its self.
Interviewer: “Anything else you would like to put on the record here before we
close out the interview?” 48:03
I can’t really think, I think we covered just about everything.
Interviewer: “You have a good story and you tell it well, so thank you very much
for coming in and sharing it today.”
You are very welcome, thank you.
20
�21
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_GElliott
Title
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Elliott, Gloria Cordes (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
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Elliott, Gloria Cordes
Description
An account of the resource
Gloria Cordes Elliott was born in Staten Island, New York, in 1931. She grew up playing ball with her brothers, and first learned about the AAGPBL when they played an exhibition game on Staten Island in 1949. She tried out for the league before the game, and was invited to spring training the following year. She played as a pitcher for teams in Muskegon, Racine, Battle Creek and Kalamazoo, and at one point pitched twenty-four straight complete games.
Contributor
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Language
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eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2007-08-20
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/efb17100d6dbe7c8aead118230005288.mp4
b2630dda90fb4fc8385e1e33475d20fe
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/796f4f4eb5159d98e805ae26dd794852.pdf
34586e5f0c539316dab09b0d9ce6cec0
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Terry Donahue
Length of Interview: (51:37)
Date of Interview: August 4, 2010 at the Reunion of the Professional Girls Baseball League
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Lindsey Thatcher, March 28, 2011
Interviewer: “Let’s begin with your full name and then when and where were you born?
My full name is Theresa, T-H-E-R-E-S-A Donahue. I was born in [Millaville or Melaval]
Saskatchewan, Canada. I was born on a farm, my father farmed. And that’s where I grew up.
Interviewer: “And in what year, when was your birthday?”
1925.
Interviewer: “Okay, born in 1925?”
1925.
Interviewer: “Ah, same as my mother?”
Okay.
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
I had wonderful parents; we had a happy home life. My, both my parents were very sports
minded people. And I can honestly say that I can never remember not playing with a ball. My, in
fact I remember as a very young child my Dad playing in a game, you know with his men. But I
was very fortunate. I had one brother (01:00), 14 months younger than I was. He was very
athletic and very good. So I had all of that on my side.
Interviewer: “So as a young child you were playing baseball with who? Just your dad and
your brother or did you have a team that you played with?”
Oh no, my mother I can remember going out in the yard with my Dad and brother and my
mother and Dad would knock us a balls and playing catch and so on. And of course as I got older
I would play with the boys, my brother was very good and I tagged along.
Interviewer: “So you were in a farm community?”
Yes.
�Interviewer: “Okay so when you were a kid where did you play baseball, where did you
play?”
Well at school, at school. And then my brother would go with a bunch of boys and I tagged a
long and would play with them, so I have been involved a long time.
(02:00)
Interviewer: “You went to high school I take it?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, how was your high school experience?”
Oh listen, I played on a girl’s team. And we had we used to have what you would call sports days
and we would play at competition from other schools and so…
Interviewer: “Was this baseball or was this softball?”
This was softball.
Interviewer: “Softball.”
Softball, yeah.
Interviewer: “What position were you playing?”
Then I pitched and played the infield and that was in the school league and then I would play
with my brother and his friends.
Interviewer: “Do you remember Pearl Harbor?”
Yes I can remember my dad and my mother talking about Pearl Harbor.
Interviewer: “Did you have a radio?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “That’s probably where they heard it?”
No television then.
Interviewer: “Right.”
But we did have a radio (03:00) and we played marbles and ping pong and you know and mother
was always very, a doer.
�Interviewer: “Your dad was a farmer?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Oh okay. Did you have to do chores?”
Yes, when I came home from school I had to milk my cow and I had to do the dishes. And you
know after school you would come home and head out maybe in the mornings gather the eggs,
you know? I wouldn’t trade that life for anything growing up; I wouldn’t want to go back to it.
Interviewer: “How did you first hear about the All American Girls Professional Baseball
League?”
Well I was scouted from the city team to go in to and play with their league; they had a very
good league in the city.
Interviewer: “How did they know about you?”
(03:59)
Well one of the sports days the two teams from Regina and Moosejaw was playing an exhibition
game, and just before their game we were playing in the finals. And I was pitching and the
manager of the Moosejaw Royals saw me there and then I remember him contacting my dad
saying that I would like your daughter to come in for a try out, I was 15 years old. So my mother
said, no way you are going to school. Well my dad saw to it that I went in for my try out. And I
made it. So then some arrangements were made that I would have to finish school and then when
school was finished I could go into the city and play ball for the rest of that season. So school
started.
Interviewer: “Was this baseball, or was this softball?”
(05:00)
This was all softball, all softball.
Interviewer: “Okay, was it a paid team?”
No.
Interviewer: “So you were just playing for fun.”
And it was a very good league.
Interviewer: “Okay.”
�Very good league and that is where I was scouted by the All Americans.
Interviewer: “Okay, so they, somebody from their organization saw you play?”
In 1954 our Moosejaw Royal team won the Western Canadian Championship. And there was a
scout there I think that it was Mr. Bishop and he asked me if I would be interested in coming
down next spring for a tryout with the All American Girls and I think it was in Pascagoula,
Mississippi. I said “Yes I would”. And of course I could hardly wait to tell my parents, because
my mother was not happy.
Interviewer: “What year was this?”
This was in 1954.
Interviewer: “’54?”
No, ’46 I mean.
Interviewer: “No, oh okay yeah.”
(06:00)
Yeah I went into Moosejaw in 1946, and I played 4 years there and in 1945 we won the western
title. Then they asked me to come down in the spring of 1946 to come down to Pascagoula for a
tryout. And mother wasn’t too happy but this is where the chaperones came in. I think mother
thought that maybe I wouldn’t make it. But anyway I came down I remember on that train
getting into Chicago and then going with this group from there to Pascagoula and that was how I
was scouted.
Interviewer: “What was you’re, you are coming from Canada, had you been to the United
States before?”
Never.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then you went into the south?”
Yeah, to Pascagoula.
Interviewer: “What was that experience like?”
My god, well somebody is, well they sort of talked different and I (07:00) was so excited about
having the chance to make this league where I could play ball every day. I can remember telling
my dad once my dream was if I could play ball every day that would be my dream come true. So
I was so excited, that was 1946 when they were adding two new teams to the league. They were
adding Peoria and Muskegon so they needed some new gals.
�Interviewer: “Now you were used to playing softball?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “What kind of ball were you playing with your new position?”
It was softball, fast pitched.
Interviewer: “Okay, well I mean when you were getting into the Professional Baseball
though?”
It was fast pitched.
Interviewer: “Right, but the ball was…?”
12 inch.
Interviewer: “Okay”
It started with 12 inch.
Interviewer: “Okay, so the transition was not that big of a thing for you because you
already had…”
Yes, that’s right. It was the same size ball as we were playing with in Canada.
(08:00)
Interviewer: “But it changed later on though.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “We will talk about that a little later on. So a scout sees you playing in the
softball league and now they have offered you this professional job, and you are going to be
playing in the south.”
They offered me to come down for a try out.
Interviewer: “Right and you passed the try out.”
Yes, I came down I passed. And I’ll never forget that day. There was it seemed to me like
hundreds of girls there all trying and I didn’t know anybody. I remember I remember managers
and people up there with their big pencil and paper and they would call your name and you
would go out and they called my name and I remember I ran out to short stop. And they knocked
me grounders and they got your flies and you had to go, and I was really on that day I was
picking them up, but I got a dirty bounce and it cut my eye there. So the chaperone came out and
�a nurse and they (09:00) said we have to have you get some stitches and I said “I’m not going
anyplace until I’m finished,” I said “put a band aid on it and I’m going back out”. And I did, I
was lucky because I did very well that day. And so, then allocation came and this huge room I
had never seen a room this large and all of these girls in it, and we are all trying to make the
league. And I can remember sitting there and trying to listen for my name. It wasn’t coming and
I thought oh my gosh, I tell you when I heard my name I was the happiest girl in that whole
building, because that meant I made the league. So that I will never forget and even talking about
it I kind of get goose pimples because I was so excited and there were girls crying because they
didn’t make it or they were being traded or so on and so forth, but I was happy.
(10:00)
Interviewer: “So let’s go back over the story, and let’s talk about it”
Well I got to Pascagoula and we worked very hard for two weeks I remember it was so hot and
coming from Canada you know it was cold there in April and I got down there and I worked very
very hard, then came allocation day and I had never seen a room that big in my life and all of
these girls there are all trying to make the league and so anyway they sent me out to short stop
and all of the managers, there was one knocking balls as hard as he could, making you run for it
and all of this. And I did really well, but I had a dirty bounce and it cut my eye, on my head
(11:00) and took me off, the nurse and the chaperone says I think you might need some stitches.
I said put a band-aid on it, I’m going back out and I’m going to finish. And I often thought,
maybe they thought there is a gutsy kid. You know? I don’t know, but anyway I heard my name
and I can tell you I was so excited. I was so happy I could hardly wait to tell my dad and my
mother. So I made it. And then they told me I was going to be with the Peoria Red Wings I was
pleased because that was a brand new team we were adding. So we were sort of, you know there
were a few veterans on it, but I made this Peoria. Great team, great group of gals so…
Interviewer: “How was your first season? You were a rookie. ”
I was a rookie.
Interviewer: “So did you play very much?”
I did, really, for, I filled in a lot of places. You know there were only 15 girls to a team (12:00),
and so you know if a girl was hurt or wasn’t feeling well I went in. And I can tell you one time,
our catcher, our regular catcher broke her finger and our manager Leo Schrall came to me and
said, “Terry have you ever caught?”, I said “Leo, I’ve never caught”. He said “Well you’re going
in”. I said “Okay I’ll do the best I can”, he hands me this great big mitt and I said “Leo I can’t
use that mitt”, I wouldn’t catch the ball it had this big great fat bit. He said “Well, what are you
going to do?” I said “I’ll use my infield glove”. Well I’ll tell you I never forget that day, that day
went 19 innings and it was April 19, 1948. I’ll never forget it because the next day was my
birthday and my knees were mighty sore from catching. And the game was called at midnight
�because the next day (13:00) was Sunday and we couldn’t play into a Sunday. That was my first
experience of catching and I ended up liking the position very well and I did finally get a good
glove. But my hand was mighty sore, with the infield glove but I loved that glove, I still have it.
Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier about playing utility, could you explain what that
meant?”
Well that meant, I could play any of the positions and fill in whenever a girl was not well or
somebody was hurt. But I never pitched, and I never played first base.
Interviewer: “Where did you stay your first season?”
I stayed with a couple in Peoria, Mr. and Mrs. Turnball. I tell you I can’t tell you how good it, I
can tell you I ended up calling them my United States parents, and I stayed with them all the time
I played in Peoria. And I saw them until the day they died and passed away. They were just like
family to me.
(14:07)
Interviewer: “What was the experience of being away from home I mean you had a good
family life and suddenly you were out in the middle of nowhere so to speak… ”
Oh, I had a wonderful happy life. But I was playing the game of my dream. And I, you know we
were playing every day and if we weren’t playing we were out practicing, I loved it, I loved it.
So I often think you know, some of the girls got homesick. I never got homesick because I knew
I was playing, I was where I wanted to be. And I sent mother and dad the daily paper so they saw
and read all the games.
Interviewer: “That’s wonderful. You were making pretty good money for someone your
age for one thing.”
Yes, I should say so, and for that time.
Interviewer: “So did you send money home, or how did you do that?”
No, I built my little bank account in Peoria. I had my first contact for 50 dollars which was a lot
of money in those days. I think a lot of us were making more money than our poor fathers, you
know.
(15:09)
Interviewer: “What was your social life like the first year?”
Well it was, you know there were a lot of nice guys watching our games and wanting to go out. I
remember you know it was very tempting but we had to get the okay by the chaperone. And
sometimes I wasn’t too happy with “You know, I don’t think you better Terry”, or you
�know…well anyway yeah it was, I got to tell you the people of Peoria were wonderful. They
would have us for lunch, the directors were, you know they would have a boat and take us up
the, I forget the name of the place in Peoria but they were all so nice to us. You know, it was a
good social life. We would play.
(16:04)
Interviewer: “Did you think, you made it very clear about how excited you were about
playing professional baseball,”
Oh absolutely.
Interviewer: “and I realize this was a tough question because it was a long time ago, but
were you thinking, you know this is what I’m going to be doing for my professional career
10 years from now, 5 years…?”
You know, I never thought about it ever ending, I never thought about maybe someday I could
never play this game. I was living; I guess for the moment, I don’t know I was so happy. But I
never thought about that ending. I thought it was just go on and on and on.
Interviewer: “When you got back home from your first season, was there any discussion
with your parents about your future and what you were going to be doing?”
When I got, after the first season I went back home and I took my dad a cap and they had the
newspapers and dad and I would sit and talk for hours and they were on the farm (17:05). And
after I got home and visited with them and saw family and friends I went into Moosejaw and got
a job and then worked in there until the next spring and then I would come back down to the
states.
Interviewer: “Now, I want to get back. Where did you work?”
I worked at a department store.
Interviewer: “Did they know that you were a baseball player?”
Yes and the manager was very proud, very supportive.
Interviewer: “So there was a certain amount of publicity then about the team and you say
that your parents, your father was reading the newspaper. Was there article about your
team and things like that?”
Yes, in the newspaper.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you were kind of a local celebrity.”
Yes, I guess you could put it that way. And Dad was very proud.
�Interviewer: “So how did you know you were going to be playing another year, did they
send you a later?”
We would sign another contract.
Interviewer: “Okay, so a contract was sent to you.”
Exactly.
(18:00)
Interviewer: “Okay, now this time you could sign it on your own because you were 18?”
Yeah you know, there was no question then. Even mother was approving.
Interviewer: “So, what was the second season like?”
Oh gosh, I could hardly wait to get back down, you know. It was just wonderful. I wasn’t a
rookie anymore, and so there were rookies coming in. And I’ll tell you when they rookies came
in I was the first one there to greet them because I was a rookie and I knew. The thing was that it
was a new team that first year I played. So it wasn’t like going into a team where there were
veterans, and you know there were…so the girls were really very nice. But I was always the first
one there to greet a new girl coming in.
(19:00)
Interviewer: “What was the uniform like?”
Oh my, well playing in those dresses and skirts was something else. Especially for sliding, but
Mr. Rigby wanted us to look like young ladies, and play ball like men; and that’s exactly what
we did. I’m going to tell you that because Peoria was the first year, the people thought that they
would go out and get a good laugh and see this novelty of these women playing in skirts. We had
a full house well they weren’t laughing when they saw how well we played, and I can say this
because my landlady and landlord had never seen a game, I don’t think. They came out to have a
good laugh, and they never missed a game after that. So, we won them over.
Interviewer: “You mentioned about the dress and all of that, how difficult was it to play in
that?”
(20:00)
Well, it was kind of a full skirt. I think it bothered the pitchers more than any of us. They would
wind up and the pitchers and it was sort of pen over there skirt because it was so full. And
actually we got used to it and it wasn’t so bad.
�Interviewer: “Well some of them said that they made alterations because I remember one
of you made a wonderful statement and said ‘I reached down to get the ball and all I got
was dress’”
Yes, well it was very full and it did bother the pitchers.
Interviewer: “Did you make any alterations or anything like that?”
I didn’t on mine.
Interviewer: “Okay, so”
And you know they gave us the satin shorts to where under the, but and then they gave us pads
for sliding but they shifted and no one every used them that I know of.
(21:00)
Interviewer: “Oh okay. Wow. Okay.”
But we did have the strawberries. And thank goodness for the chaperones, they were wonderful.
Interviewer: “So you had a few strawberries yourself?”
Oh, yes.
Interviewer: “Oh my gosh, my gosh.”
But you know, I don’t think anybody really minded. The chaperones were great and they.
Interviewer: “They were responsible for cleaning the wound?”
They were wonderful women, yeah.
Interviewer: “I heard that it stung quite a bit though when they put that… ”
Oh yeah, when they would put that stuff on it, it would sting.
Interviewer: “Oh my gosh.”
Interviewer: “Let’s get back to the second season.”
Okay.
Interviewer: “Did you stay in the same house with those two people that you said were so
wonderful, did you stay in the same house the second year?”
Yes.
�Interviewer: “So they knew you were coming back.”
Oh yes, I stayed all four years there. Yeah, and then I was just part of the family. You know you
had to pay for our room (22:03) and go out for our meals. Well it got so they wouldn’t even take
my money for my room. They were just terrific. They had no children, and they just took me
over. They were wonderful, wonderful people.
Interviewer: “Now you were staying by yourself or did you have a roommate?”
I stayed, I had a roommate and she was traded, and then I stayed quite awhile by myself and then
another girl came to town and needed a place and she came and stayed there also with me, and
they liked her too. So, I think that most of the girls had wonderful places to stay and the people
were so nice.
Interviewer: “So the end of your second season, you come back home again, and you are
working in the same place”
Yes, yes, my boss was so good, he said “Terry anytime you want to come here again the doors
open”
Interviewer: “That’s wonderful.”
So he was wonderful (23:00). So being a Canadian, to keep in shape I played girls hockey. So
when I came down in the spring I was in shape. My legs were in good shape and I was ready to
go. So that was a good advantage for me. Like the California and Florida girls they were in shape
they played all winter. But I played girls hockey and kept in shape.
Interviewer: “Tell us about your manager, how was your manager?”
Our first manager was Johnny Gottselig, he was a famous hockey player. I don’t know if he was
the first, maybe he was. Then we had several others and then we had Louis Schrall and he was
from the university there. So we had good managers. They taught us a lot, you know Leo taught
us the sliding.
Interviewer: “I was going to ask that, because you came from a baseball background, you
already knew how to play, but you never played professionally, formally, and some of the
girls said that there were things that they taught you that either you had a bad habit from
before, didn’t realize it was a bad habit, was there things that they taught you that you
thought ‘Oh I should do it this way.’?”
(24:16)
I can’t recall anything. But when I played in Moosejaw and there was an excellent league and
there was excellent coaching. I think that that was to our advantage too. We had very good
coaching in Moosejaw.
�Interviewer: “Now did your manager treat you like a woman, or did he treat you like a
baseball player?”
Oh, he was tough, you know. I think you treated us like a baseball player. I mean, he didn’t baby
us, and we could take it. I mean we had to read the rules and we would get on that bus and he
would question us. So I think you know he was, I think he was treating us more like a baseball
player, which was great.
(25:00)
Interviewer: “How were the road trips?”
Oh gosh. We would finish a ball game and shower and get on that old bus. And if we lost, we it
was very quiet, and if we won we would still for a hundred miles. You know, I never ever heard
anybody complain about the road trips. But I, you know we couldn’t wear slacks, we would get
on the bus we would get in our jeans and traveling all night, but if we stopped we had to get out
of those jeans and put on a skirt. We not even, I can remember several nights we’d stop and we
would have to get on our skirt. And Mr. Rigley wanted us to look like ladies, and we did.
Interviewer: “You were very young of course, the fact that you were doing a road trip all
night. The next day, what was your day like? In other words you were on the bus all night
you arrived and it’s the town you are going to be playing. Walk us through what you had to
do, you went to sleep? Or you… ”
(26:11)
Well yes, we would get into a hotel. Like if we were traveling form Peoria to Muskegon, which
is a long ways, we would get into the hotel and get a couple winks of sleep and sometimes he
would get us out there earlier before a game for more running and so on, and sometimes we
would have to go out for a work out in the morning. It all depended on how things were going. If
we weren’t winning we would have to get out there and practice. But those bus trips and we look
back on them now and they were fun.
Interviewer: “Yeah, you had mentioned about the fans the first year, they come out kind of
laughing and you proved them wrong. How were the road trips, in terms of the road trips
going to other towns how were the fans?”
(27:03)
They were great too, I’m sure the same thing happened there. We always had good crowds. I
think that it was 1948 we drew a million people, the league. And then in 1947 we trained in
Havana, Cuba.
Interviewer: “Tells about that.”
�That was exciting.
Interviewer: “Well you had never been out of the, well I was going to say that you had
never been out of the country, but you are from Canada!”
So we get into Cuba and we trained there. Oh it was hot. And we trained there very hard for two
weeks and this was before Castro. I can remember one day they told us to bring sandwiches into
the hotel because we were not going to practice or go out the next day because the army was
walking down the streets. I can remember it was scary. Anyway the Brooklyn Dodgers were
training there at the same time we were (28:00) and we outdrew them. They came over and they
said “What is going on over here?”, and when they saw how well we played they couldn’t
believe it. Dottie Kamenshek, was the first baseman for Rockford Beeches. They said if she had
been a man they would have offered her $50,000 on the spot. In those days that was a lot, but
that was a fun time.
Interviewer: “You played against Cuban teams?”
No, we played, we played, well we were playing against, you know our league.
Interviewer: “Just like you would if you were in the states, okay.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “I know a couple girls got recruited out of Cuba”
Yes, yes. And we had a couple on the Peoria Red Wings. And they were fun, fun gals and in fact
I think we have one Cuban woman here.
Interviewer: “I think we have done her interview already”
(29:00)
Yeah and she’s very funny.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so your trip to Cuba, you come back. Now you are in your third
season, now isn’t it about this time that the ball changed? ”
Yes, in 1948 we went to side arm. So it wasn’t side arm, some of the girls were still going the
windmill; side arm came out in 1948. Then a couple more years and the overhead took over.
Interviewer: “How about you, how was that transition for you?”
Well I tell you; at that point I was doing more catching. I was talking about 1949, it was
overhead, almost completely overhead by then. And I was doing more catching. And in the 1950,
I signed my contract for 1950, and I did not sign it because by that time they had lengthened the
�bases (30:00). Every two years they would lengthen the bases and make the ball smaller. And
they changed the size of the ball 6 times, from the 12 inch to the…I think it was 194-, I didn’t
sign the 1950 contract. As it was I had an opportunity to go into Chicago and I was offered a
contract to play fast pitched in Chicago. Because I was doing more catching, I thought that’s
what I would do would go into Chicago and play professional there in the fast pitched because I
was afraid my arm wasn’t strong enough. And it was a hard decision to make, but a lot of the
girls came in. I know in 1950 in Chicago, we had several, I was on the team, and Sophie Curry,
and Joanne Wenners. There was a lot of us on the team.
(30:51)
Interviewer: “This is outside of the league?”
Yes. So that’s why I didn’t sign the 1950 contract, because of the distance and I didn’t feel my
arm was strong enough. And I had the opportunity to go into the city. But it was a hard decision,
because you know it was such a good league.
Interviewer: “This is a paid, this is also a professional team? I didn’t even know about
this.”
Yes
Interviewer: “And it’s outside of the All American Girls Professional Baseball League?”
Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: “It was a fast pitched, professional women’s team.”
Yes, well you know by 1950 the boys were coming back from service and people had more
money and there were more things to do. So, I believe the, the attendance wasn’t as big as it used
to be, so that was my decision. I think it was the right one, for the simple reason that I didn’t
think my arm was strong enough and I was doing more catching. But it was a tough decision.
(32:02)
Interviewer: “How long did you stay with the fast pitched?”
Two years, and then, but in Chicago you could get a job and play because we didn’t play outside
the Chicago area. I got my job, and I was playing at night. And I liked my job so well that I
finally just quit playing and so I played there, I worked there 38 years and then I retired.
Interviewer: “I have to know, what, with the enthusiasm you had for playing baseball,
what job could possibly replace?”
�Well I think I finally realized that the time has come. I was Canadian, and it was….I thought I
might play longer in the Chicago area. I got my job, and I was doing well there. And then in the
contract if you were hurt, you were responsible, and I thought now well maybe it was time to
make the change. It was hard.
(33:04)
Interviewer: “What job did you take?”
I worked with an interior design firm, was a very very good one. We hired architects and
designers and I was in the business end of it. I liked my job, I was there 38 years.
Interviewer: “Where did you get the training to do something like that?”
I went to night school because I never had the opportunity to go to college. And I got my job,
went to night school and it all worked out, I was very fortunate because I love the people I
worked with. But I got to tell you that I couldn’t go to ball game that first year, because I wanted
to be out there. It was hard.
Interviewer: “Did the, did your coworkers know you were a baseball player?”
(33:58)
No, I never talked about. Nobody knew that I had played professional ball. If I had told them
they probably thought that I was crazy, so let me tell you, when that movie started all hell broke
loose. Oh, phone was ringing, they wanted to interview, television and radio. It was incredible
but very exciting.
Interviewer: “What was your reaction to that?”
Well we were excited, but I can tell you there was 50 of us girls, met all the stars and starlets in a
hotel in [Muskogee]. We had to tell them about our experiences and help them throw a ball and
so on. And of course Madonna threw just like a girl, and oh we thought, and we got very upset to
think that they had a Madonna in that movie, because we didn’t have a Madonna in our League,
and we told them so. And they said that they had her under their thumb and she had a very small
part. Well anyway, it ended up that we got to like Madonna, she was a pretty good gal, a hard
worker.
(35:12)
Interviewer: “Well the combination of her and Rosie O’Donnell, really made that part of
the movie. They were perfect with each other and for each other.”
Oh absolutely, Rosie O’Donnell had the best ability. She could throw and catch.
�Interviewer: “Well someone told me that she actually knew how to play baseball.”
Oh she did, but Madonna, forget it. Oh, anyway it was pretty exciting because we got to beat
them all.
Interviewer: “I want you to think about this for a moment, you have gone years and years
working in a place that you love to work, baseball is way behind you, suddenly this movie
comes out, did you think what is all of this hoopla about? Or did you just think well, I guess
people think this a pretty big deal.”
Well we were I know I was very excited to think (36:02) that this movie was going to tell our
story, which is something we love doing. We didn’t know how it was going to come out. We
were very worried until we saw it, but when we saw it we were very pleased. Because it wasn’t a
documentary as you know, it was a…
Interviewer: “A Hollywood movie”
A Hollywood movie, I remember going to Rockford and to see the movie for the first time with
all of the girls there and we had tears, we were really excited. And except for that movie nobody
would have known about it. When that came out, and the people at work couldn’t believe it, that
I had played professional. So it was pretty exciting, oh goodness gracious. You know we were
being interviewed, we weren’t talkers and we would never, it was incredible. People just wanted,
I said well if you want an interview come to my apartment because we were running around like
crazy, we all were.
(37:13)
Interviewer: “What is your reaction now that several years have passed since that movie?
It hasn’t, it’s still being shown on television, and people still talk about it. I teach at the
University, I get kids 20 years old as soon as I say ‘League of their Own’, they say ‘Oh
yeah, I love that movie’ they may have seen it when they were a little kid. When I tell my
students that I am doing a documentary about it them…oh my goodness, they think I
am…see you have kind of rubbed off on me, your fame has rubbed off on me a little bit,
they think that is the coolest thing.”
I got to tell you a funny story. One day I had gone to mass that Sunday and I fainted and they
hauled me off to the closest hospital and this at home in Chicago. Of course, they were checking
me, they had me they were going for the heart and I can remember one day laying there and this
little Puerto Rican nurse came in (38:09). And she said “Oh you are watching a movie”,
happened to be A League of their Own, and I was laying there and I thought this is great I’ll get
to see our movie. She comes in and I say “I’m watching a movie”, and she says “Oh what is it
about?” and said “Oh it’s about the women playing ball in the ‘40’s, and I said I was one of those
women and I tried to help Madonna throw a ball. Well I saw the look on her face, she turned
around and went out so fast and pretty soon another nurse came in. She said “Oh you are
watching a movie” and I said “Yeah”. So I told her the same thing. They thought I was crazy.
�Then two doctors came in, and they thought well there is nothing wrong with this woman, that’s
all they had. That was so funny.
Interviewer: “Once again I want to get back to what is your reaction to all of this?”
(39:04)
We were overwhelmed, we were overwhelmed, really. We couldn’t believe that we were getting
all of this attention. Because anytime you mention that movie people go crazy. I think we were
really overwhelmed and so excited.
Interviewer: “How is it now? It’s been several years and you have had a chance to realize
that this whole country, if not parts of this world think that this is an amazing period of
time and what you did was really extraordinary”
Well even now I don’t think that it’s changed much since the first time it came out. You
mentioned to somebody that you’ve played and you know they will see my ring and I might be
paying a bill or doing something. “Oh, that’s a pretty ring”, you know and we’ll get talking and
I’ll say “Have you heard of A League of Their Own?” and you tell them that you’ve played they
just get so excited. It’s incredible.
(40:02)
Interviewer: “What do you think about that?”
Well, you know what I can say, what I think, I think I was very fortunate to have had the
opportunity to be able to play professional baseball with the All American League. I think that
we were at the right place at the right time. I feel very fortunate. And to have played with such a
great group of women, great group of women. I think that I’m glad Mr. Wrigley included the
Canadians, and I think that we did prove that women can play professional ball as well as men;
we can’t hit the ball as hard or as far but we can make all of those same plays and sometimes
better, I’ve seen maybe a few. But, it is. I think we are very fortunate.
Interviewer: “One of the things that is really impressive to me, is the number of you that
have gone on beyond that period of time and have done, some of you became PhD’s, some
of you worked, where does those few years fit into your idea of your life? It’s only a small
part, but where does that fit in terms of your life?”
(41:16)
I think that playing in the All American taught me a lot. You know you are team player, you are
team worker. You get along with people. I think that it did a lot for me and for all of us. I think it
fit in very well.
Interviewer: “Why did you come to the first reunion, why did you come to the reunion?”
�Let me tell you, the very first reunion was 1982, in a Holiday Inn just east of Michigan Avenue
in Chicago. And that I will never forget. We had to have name tags because some of us got
heavier, some of us lost our baby fat, and that was a wonderful reunion. And every reunion was
wonderful; but that very first one where we hadn’t seen one another for years and years was a
great reunion. You know, I don’t say one was better than another, I think they are all great. It
was so wonderful to see the gals you played, and it is just amazing how sometimes you can
remember a play. I remember when I threw you out or something, so it’s been great.
(42:35)
Interviewer: “You have a family?”
I never married. But I do have family which I love dearly and I’m going to be with them
September 1, I’m going to celebrate my 85th birthday. They are having a big party.
Interviewer: “How did your family react to the movie and all of the because before that
they knew you were a baseball player, but not a big movie star?”
(43:00)
No, well my mother and dad of course on the farm, they never went to movies. By this time,
when the movie came out my dad had passed away but my mother was living closer to my
brother and his family and when that movie came out they gave all of my family a free ticket to
go see this movie. And mother could hardly wait. When the movie was over she walked out with
my nephew and she looked at him and said “I thought Terry played in a nice league”, because
she mentioned Tom Hanks, so that was funny. So they were all very proud and very excited
about it.
Interviewer: “This is a big question, maybe you have thought about it, maybe you haven’t
thought about it, I don’t know. But where do you think the All American Girls Professional
Baseball League fits into the whole scheme of history, of American history?”
(44:00)
I think that it was an important thing at that time, because of the war I think that we did help
people have a place to go and watch us play. I hope that it can continue. I think there are some
young gals that are trying to get a team, I know I talked to them yesterday and I’m going to go
and see them. But I hope it continues because I think there is a part.
Interviewer: “What do you say to young people, when little girls come up to you and start
talking to you?”
Listen if you have the ability, and the desire and the love for the game, go for it, go for it.
�Interviewer: “Any particular moments that you played that really stick out, what are the
stories you tell while you are here at the reunion?”
(45:01)
I’ll tell you there is such a great group; we had such a great time but after one season there was
three of us Canadians going back home. So we decided to go buy a car. We got $25 each and we
bought this car for $75. And we took off for Canada. No, before we went on our last road trip
we took the car into the mechanic, and said we just bought this car, we’re going to drive it to
Canada when we got off our road trip. Just check it over, but we don’t want you to do anything
to this car because we don’t want a big bill. So, we go off and come back from the road trip and
we go back to the mechanics. “We fixed your car, it’s all ready to go”. We said “We told you not
to do anything”. We said “Well how much is the bill?” he said “$2.50”. He put a new switch or
something, you know. So anyway we took off for Canada. He said, “You will make it you don’t
go more than 30 miles a day”. Well that was a fantastic trip. So that was one, you know, that was
after the season. But, you know it was just things like this. You see them at the reunion and now
we laugh about it. You know?
(46:25)
Interviewer: “Right, right. Any particular moments of the game that particularly stands
out? Either a home run or did you catch something or is there anything you can
remember?”
You know, you hear this…there is no crying in baseball. I remember one night I was catching
and a gal laid down a bunt, and I got the bunt and threw it to the first and it went miles over the
first baseman. Do you think I had a tear? Yes I did. That was one. But I think catching the 19
innings, there were a lot of good moments. Peoria had never won a championship, but I can tell
you we had a great team. Great team.
Interviewer: “Who were the real challenges? What teams really gave you the biggest
trouble?”
(47:14)
I think those 4 teams that started that always had good teams, like Rockford, Kenosha, Racine,
and South Bend. They had good teams; I think they were the tough ones.
Interviewer: “You know we are from Grand Rapids, all of us are from Grand Rapids.”
Are you? Grand Rapids? I remember Grand Rapids. They were good too, the Chicks, oh yeah.
Connie Wisniewski, the pitcher, oh she was good. She was one that went into Chicago later. But
they were all good teams, they were all good.
�Interviewer: “Well I want to just thank you so much.”
You are all from Grand Rapids?
Interviewer: “Yeah”
(48:01)
You never saw us play then, you are too young.
Interviewer: “Too young for that I think yeah, yeah.”
I remember Bill Allington who coached the Rockford Peaches had a movie and as far as I know
that is the only one there is but one of the girls played it once at one of the reunions it was fun to
see it…
Interviewer: “Do you remember who it was that played it?”
You know I can’t remember.
Interviewer: “Because we are trying to find as much as we can for the film.”
As far as I know Bill Allington was the coach of the Rockford Peaches, and I think it was the
Rockford Peaches playing the Peoria Red Wings. I might be wrong about playing the Peoria Red
Wings but there was, he had made a home movie at that time. I don’ think it was the whole game
but I wonder who would know about it.
Interviewer: “I’m going to start asking. But you said it was Bill Allington?”
Yeah, oh he was the manager, of the Rockford Peaches.
Interviewer: “Yeah”
(49:07)
Yeah.
Interviewer: “We heard that there is a film of a whole game somewhere?”
Well that could have been a whole game too. I can’t say yes or no, all I know that there was one,
someplace along the way I saw clips of it, I’ll have to ask.
Interviewer: “I’ve seen one which is a news feature at the time, so it wasn’t the whole game.
But it was news, you know how the people would come out there and they would
interview?”
No, that wasn’t this. This was…
�Interviewer: “This was a home movie, he…yeah”
And there weren’t too many at the time. That would be a good one to get.
Interviewer: “Yeah, absolutely.”
I’ll certainly ask around too.
Interviewer: “Please, I would really appreciate that. Did you go to the ball game
yesterday?”
Yes I was.
Interviewer: “Tell us about that. What was that like.”
Oh listen, the Chicago White Sox won.
(50:00)
Interviewer: “How was the baseball game?”
Oh it was great but I tell you it was really hot out there. We left after the 6th inning. It just was so
hot.
Interviewer: “You guys were honored and brought out.”
Oh, they were wonderful; we were honored and came out onto the field. They had a very good
crowd, yeah.
Interviewer: “Lots of applause.”
Oh yes, all of these things are happening to us old gals, that’s what is keeping us young.
Interviewer: “That’s wonderful. Just a quick question about, you said that it was difficult
for you to even go to a game after you…”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “When did that change eventually? Did you go to ball games regularly after?”
Yeah, after that I went there and I wanted to be out in it. And it was really hard. But I was going,
I started night school, I was working, and I had made the decision that that was the proper thing
to do. And as I look back I think I made the right decisions. Because even that league in the
Chicago league, the boys were coming back from the service and the crowds weren’t so good
either.
Interviewer: “Well it worked out for you.”
�It worked out, no complaints. And here we are.
Interviewer: “You look beautiful, you do, you do.”
Oh, thank you.
Interviewer: “Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.”
Thank you. And you are all from Grand Rapids?
Interviewer: “Yup.”
(51:37)
��
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_TDonahue
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Donahue, Terry (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
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Donahue, Terry
Description
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Terry Donahue was born in 1925 in a farming community in Saskatchewan, and grew up playing baseball with her family and friends, and softball at school. At the age of fifteen, she was recruited onto the Moosejaw Royals, a women's softball team, and was spotted by American scouts from there and went to the All American Girls Professional Baseball League in 1946. She played four seasons for the Peoria Redwings, starting as a utility player and winding up as a catcher. She left the league in 1950 for a softball league in Chicago, and stayed there to work for an interior design firm.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Illinois
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2010-08-06
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/06956280e40614b43b3b55d5d7f4f929.mp4
f2a6cac73b1e0613cc4deed266d76c37
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ee7204a431cc0405f065e7fe5a88a1d2.pdf
fdd86f48f75c774251e7c78d76ebb60c
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
WIMP BAUMGARTNER
Women in Baseball
Born: Fort Wayne, Indiana, 1930
Resides:
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, March 23, 2011
Interviewer: “Wimp, can you start by giving us a little bit of background on
yourself? Where and when were you born, for instance?”
I was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1930 and the last of six kids. The other four were
girls and in other words there were five girls in the family and one boy, but he died when
he was eleven months old and I was born two months later, so that was it.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living in those days?”
My dad ran a grocery store and, of course, my mom worked in there with him and we
lived above the grocery store. They moved a farmhouse over from where they built the
Harvester in Fort Wayne. My grandpa moved houses, so he moved the farmhouse over
there and my mom was the oldest girl in that family, so my grandpa gave it to the oldest
girl, so that’s where we ended up, across from Zollner, Magnavox and Harvester.
Interviewer: “Was your father able to keep his store through the thirties?” 56:03
Yeah, we got a lot of trade from the guys in the factory, cigarettes and ice cream. Mom
and dad had a restaurant license and they served hamburgers and cheeseburgers. Stuff
that—they would come in and get their potato chips and Twinkie cookies and all that
good stuff. On the way out of the store they would get an ice cream cone to eat on the
way back to the factories and I would have to go out in the yard and clean up their mess.
1
�Interviewer: “So, as long as the factories were going then you had business and you
were ok. How did you get involved playing sports?”
Well, the neighborhood boys. The boys lived close to where I did and of course I didn’t
have any brothers, but we went back to Harvester Park, which was two blocks behind and
they had a ball diamond back there and every night we congregated there, but we always
had to be home by dark. That was it as far as—and oh, the men from Zollners, when they
had the Zollner Pistons professional basketball team, before they moved to Detroit, they
use to come over and shoot baskets at my basket with me, so we always had the big ball
players coming in the store for their donuts and coffee and all that good stuff. 57:16
Interviewer: “Now, when you were playing—were you playing baseball with the
boys or were they playing softball?”
We played with any kind of ball we had.
Interviewer: “With whatever they had, and did they have regular baseball bats or
sticks?”
No, my dad had a softball neighborhood men’s team, and Zollner put up a ball diamond
across the street from our grocery store, which was between Zollner and Magnavox, and
after work, or sometimes at noon, the guys would have an hour for lunch and they would
be over there playing softball in the summertime, so I always had to run over and play
ball with the big men. They let me bat, they let me run the bases, and I was at the height
of my glory. 58:02 I got to know all the fellas that way.
Interviewer: “Were there any other girls playing with them?”
No, the other girls were outrun, I guess, I don’t know.
Interviewer: “So, you’re sisters weren’t interested in this?”
2
�No, they was women or girls or something.
Interviewer: “Alright now, do you remember when the women’s baseball team
came to play in Fort Wayne?”
They came in 1945, and of course, I went out to watch them and also, my phys-ed teacher
at Fort Wayne Central, she went out and tried out and I went with her to the tryouts. I
was just out there running around because I had no intention of playing with them or
anything. We were on our way to the lake, so she went to the tryouts and then we were
going to go to her cottage, her mom and dad’s cottage at the lake. So, we were out there
playing around and she made the team, she was an underhand pitcher at that time, and I
was her student in eighth grade, and of course I tagged her all over, and she was very, not
demanding, but I mimicked her like kids do. 59:20 So, I’d go out and watch them play
ball and I’d look at that and say, “geeze, I can do that”, you know, a cocky little kid, so
when I graduated I tried out with Fort Wayne and, of course, they didn’t need an
outfielder at that time, or anyplace else I could play, so they sent me to Chicago and up
there, they made me into a catcher, and I was right where I should have been all the time.
It felt real good and I got along good and I did pretty good because I went on the tour.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you said you tried out for Fort Wayne, was that an
individual tryout?” 59:58
No, this was a spring training deal. They put an ad in the paper you know, and the other
softball players come and you know, we just performed in front of the manager at that
time, that was Harold Greiner then, and he had a bar in town next to the softball diamond.
Interviewer: “Do you have a sense of how many of those girls got sent on to Chicago
or to the other teams?”
3
�I think there were three of us, and the rest got sent home, but I got to stay, I lucked out.
Interviewer: “So, you go to Chicago and what team are you joining there?”
It wasn’t a team; it was a whole big tryout. We were at a small hotel at the north end of
town. They brought in four Cubans and Lefty Alvarez was one of those Cubans, of
course none of them could talk English or anything. All they did was eat scrambled eggs
and hamburgers and I don’t know what they drank, but that’s all they ate. I think that’s
all they knew how to order. 1:05 Anyhow, from there we left on the tour. We had two
teams, so there were a lot of girls there with fifteen or sixteen on a team, Chicago
[Colleens] and the [Springfield] Sallies. I forget which team I was with first, but anyhow,
midway through June they switched me to the other team, and I don’t remember which
one I was with first.
Interviewer: “So, you got to catch all the pitchers and not just one team?”
Yeah, I ended up catching most all of them, yeah.
Interviewer: “Now, as you were going along in that first season, how well were you
doing as a player? Were you doing well as a catcher or as a hitter?”
I did pretty well at both at that time, of course we were strictly overhand and it was new
for the pitchers and new for batters and I was the first one that got to hit a home run on
that whole tour. 2:07 I don’t know why I remember those things, but they must be
important.
Interviewer: “Do you remember who you hit it off of?”
Heavens no, that was too long ago.
Interviewer: “All right, now what was the daily life like as you were going on tour
with these two teams?”
4
�Ok, we were all on one bus and we intermingle because, like I said, some of us switched
back and forth on different teams. We got three dollars a day meal money, and usually if
we were in a town, we were only there for one night or maybe two, so we always had
dirty clothes to do. We always went out and ate at small restaurants, we didn’t have
Burger King and McDonalds and that, so they just had mom and pop places, and what we
had was trash food because we would very seldom order a meal. 3:06 If we were
traveling—one time we were traveling from Saint something in Oklahoma, and we rode
until about noon the next day to hit our next stop and it was continually that kind of stuff.
We always stayed in air-cooled hotels, which was a nice little old fan up there in the
middle of the room just barely going around and that was our air conditioning. Of
course, all the windows were always up. We just moseyed around town and didn’t stay
in the hotel too much because it was too hot. We did run into colored only drinking
fountains and rest rooms and we had never seen that before, and it was in our face almost
every day.
Interviewer: “So, most of the players were from the Midwest and areas where they
didn’t have the—or the Northeast or California?”
Yeah, most of us were from the Midwest. 4:07 As I said, the Cubans were there and a
lot from Michigan and a few from Indiana. Yeah, we had some from Redkey, down by
Indianapolis and Ohio. We had some from Ohio and Illinois and that was about it, the
Midwest and we didn’t have hardly anybody coming from somewhere else.
Interviewer: “And if they were not coming up from the south, they wouldn’t have
seen the segregation and all that kind of thing.”
5
�Mentioning the south and the ball players—every time we went in, I wouldn’t say every
time, but a lot of the times we went in, they would ads in the paper that we were coming
and they were to come out and tryout. Well, we picked up Sue Kidd in Arkansas, and she
showed up with bib overalls on and I don’t want to make fun of Sue because she was a
good player, but she was “back woods country, small town hardy”. I think all they had
was a post office there with houses around. 5:10 Her dad was a Postmaster, but she
showed up with a farmer haircut like the Amish, they put a bowl on their head and cut
around it, but after she got on the bus with us , we were in Little Rock, she had to go back
to Choctaw and pack her bag, and they brought her down the next day and she got on the
bus and went with us. Her dad was all for it, he was a gung ho baseball man from way
back. He always had ball teams and three boys. Sue had a couple brothers, Tommy and
Buck, and they played good. After the first season I went home with Sue and we rode
them hills back there. They were going to have a ball game the night we got there,
because we traveled all day and everything, And they wanted Sue to pitch, so Sue pitched
and they had—I had to catch because I was with her, and it was a fabulous time. 6:12
They come from out of those hills, I don’t know where those people come from because
going down the road you don’t see too many houses. They are back in the hills
someplace, but boy when they would have a ball game they would have a couple
thousand people there and that was a lot of people back in the hills.
Interviewer: “Now, when you were touring you would—you mentioned you were in
Oklahoma, you were in Arkansas and those areas, and did you kind of go through
the Southeast or Northeast? Where else did you go traveling?”
6
�We got to play in Natchez and New Orleans, in a ball field down there, at Pelican Park I
think it was, and that was big time. The manager made sure we went to Antoine’s for
dinner one day and we got three dollars a day for meal money and everything in there
was about ten dollars and that was big bucks back then. 7:05 We had to go and we were
all mad at him because we had to spend all our money on chicken and that was the
cheapest thing on the menu. We managed that, we walked through the French Quarter
and I mean, we got an education, all the way, you learn geography, you learn everything.
You learn how they talk from down there and it was just—it was a good education for a
kid the first time away from home. We never got to travel back in those days because our
parents never got to go anywhere. We couldn’t because of the grocery store.
Interviewer: “How much of an effort did they make to look after you? You had
chaperone with you and so forth, but how did they keep track of you and keep you
in line?”
We had a couple on the tour that would kind of get lost once and a while, you know, run
off or do something, but most of us, the first time away and we were all pretty young, so
we didn’t get too wild. 8:09 We were half afraid to walk on some of those streets and at
night we would play, but sometimes we would play day games, but we never wandered
too far by ourselves at all because we didn’t know what was out there.
Interviewer: “As you kept going, and get to Louisiana, do you keep going east and
go all the way to the east coast?”
Yeah, we went to Jackson, Mississippi, Baton Rouge and over to Alabama. We were in
Tennessee; we played—the prettiest time I ever saw, even in major leagues, was in
Memphis Tennessee. The have that red dirt down there you know, and the white lines on
7
�it and the green grass and the fence around it was green, and I don’t know why, but I sure
do remember that park because it was so pretty. 9:11 From there we went back down to
Mississippi. We backtracked and we went through Fort Smith Arkansas three times from
three different directions, getting around to where we—the man got—a guy by the name
of Frank Elve or Helve, he went ahead of us about two days or three days and he would
go to these towns and have them book us. Of course he would have to talk to the
chamber of commerce in all these towns and everything, but he kept ahead of us and he
kept us moving, but glory, we went all over the country in three different times going in
different directions. We were in Paris, Texas, Tyler, Texas and one of the big cities I
think it was Austin-- Austin, Texas, that’s the capital, we were there because we saw the
capital building. One other time, when we first started out, we went to Jefferson
Missouri, and in Jefferson City, Missouri, the capital, they have this acoustic room.
10:15 It’s a great big lobby and the ceiling is real high and you could hear somebody
whisper clear across the—see, I tell you, we got to see that kind of stuff. Oh, another
thing too, in Joplin, Missouri we got to go through the Penitentiary. We were walking
through the jail and them guys were just looking at us girls and we were scared to death
to be in there. I know they were caged up, but we didn’t know the way they were looking
at us bothered us because we had some fifteen and sixteen, I was eighteen, anyhow that
was an experience.
Interviewer: “Now, you didn’t complete that season with the touring teams?”
No, I think it was in Mississippi, they sent a Piper cub down to pick me up and take me
back to Peoria. We got back, Lenny Zintak was our manager and he came in the hotel
room to tell me, “hey Wimp, I got good news for you. I’m sending you home”, and I
8
�thought, “oh God”, and I was about ready to bawl. 11:21 Then he said, “you have to go
up to Peoria and be their catcher”, and I thought, “oh my golly”. We got to Peoria in this
little old plane, I don’t even know who the pilot was, anyway, we got there and Peoria
was playing over in Fort Wayne, my hometown, so we had to get back in this little old
airplane and he flew me over to Fort Wayne. I caught that night and wasn’t introduced to
the pitcher because I just got there in time for the game. They had a uniform that didn’t
fit me, but I had to go out and catch anyhow, but that was fun. My mom and dad were
there and I hadn’t seen them for two months, so they told me I was going to go home and
I was homesick like everyone was. We sure did live through some things. 12:08 Then
we got on the bus right after that and went back to Peoria and for two days I hadn’t been
in a bed. We were traveling all night to get down to Mississippi and then they sent me
someplace else up there and then I finally got to Fort Wayne and that was their last game
of the series there, so I got back in the bus and we went back to Peoria. That was an all
night trip and we got in about nine the next morning—that was living.
Interviewer: “Once you got to Peoria, did you get a chance to settle down a little
bit?”
Yeah, they put me in a house, it wasn’t too far from the ballpark, and I had a room in
there upstairs. A man and a woman who had two kids, nice kids, and I was within
walking distance, so I could walk to the ballpark. I never did get on a bus and go
downtown, I was afraid I’d get lost. Peoria’s pretty big and I didn’t know anything about
it. 13:05
Interviewer: “So, were you their regular catcher then for the rest of the season?”
9
�I caught about the first three games and then Terry Donahue and I switched back and
forth some. I was new and she didn’t have the arm I had, but she had more smarts than I
had because she knew the girls better, so it worked out and I had a nice education on that.
Interviewer: “So, you got to learn the hitters and learn what the pitchers could
do?”
Yeah, you only see then three days and then another team would come in or you would
go somewhere else, so that was only for the month of August, because I got there at the
end of July and the season was over on Labor Day and that’s when the play offs started.
Of course, Peoria wasn’t in the play offs that year, that’s probably why they sent for me,
but I couldn’t get them in the play offs, I know that.
Interviewer: “So, what happens then when the season ends, that first season?”
14:05
That first season? Well, I didn’t have a car, I didn’t know anybody, so my landlord took
me down to the bus station that night and I slept in the bus station that night and I took
the bus to go home the next morning. That was an all night—well, we had to go up
through Chicago because they didn’t have any buses go straight across the northern part
of Indiana, so we had to go to Chicago, stay there half a day and I finally got home.
Interviewer: “When you got back home, did you go back to work in the store or
what did you do?”
I was now eighteen and I could get a job, so I went down the hill to Magnavox. Well,
that hill between Magnavox and us was all down hill and that’s where they had the
soapbox derby every year. Well, when I was a little kid I had a buggy and I went and
took the wheels off the buggy and put it on an ironing board and put an orange crate on
10
�top of that, because we had orange crates from the grocery store, and I made a little—I
just steered it by rope with rope on one side and the other. 15:13 Of course back then
you could do that. Anytime you could get wood with four wheels on it, you could run it
down the hill, so I would play with the boys out there and I could beat them all with my
buggyies, but I went down to get in the soapbox derby and they laughed at me and I had
to go home and I bawled all the way home. They wouldn’t let the girls do anything.
Something else too—in high school—I wanted to take drafting and stuff and I wanted to
be an Architect—that was a boys class and they wouldn’t let me in—that’s the story of
my life—boys always got in my way, but times have changed.
Interviewer: “So, you took a job with Magnavox then for that winter?”
Yeah, for the winter
Interviewer: “Did you know you were going back to the league the next year?”
Yes, Magnavox happily laid you off all summer, so I went back to Magnavox the next
fall, and then the third winter I went to Fort Wayne Catering Company and worked there
in the wintertime. 16:11 I would save my money to go to college.
Interviewer: “So, the second season, how did that start?”
Ok, I got to—I went to spring training with Muskegon.
Interviewer: “And where was spring training that year?”
Cape Girardeau, Missouri—that was—there were four teams down there. The fort
Wayne Daisies was one, we were one, well, Muskegon was one. The Fort Wayne
Daisies picked up Joan Weaver and the Weaver kids, all three of them and they hung on
to them players I guess, they didn’t let them go. Then at the end of spring training I was
with Kalamazoo—I keep saying Kalamazoo because Muskegon was with Kalamazoo,
11
�but I didn’t move to Kalamazoo. At the end of spring training they sent me on a South
Bend bus. Evidently I was traded to South Bend somewhere in spring training and that’s
how I got to South Bend. 17:18 You pack your bag and get on the bus. I looked at them
and I didn’t know any of them, so—the veterans don’t talk to the rookies too much, so I
just went back and sat back and then they put me in a house there within walking distance
of the thing—the ballpark.
Interviewer: “ Now, did you actually go to play in Muskegon or were you just
assigned to them and then switched to the Blue Sox?”
I was assigned to them after Peoria. I don’t know how I got from Peoria to Muskegon.
You get a letter and that’s where you go. That’s where you report for spring training and
we had to drive down—some of the other players from Pennsylvania and stuff were
going through Indiana you know, so we kept track of each other, so I hitched a ride with
some of them to get down to Cape Girardeau.
Interviewer: “What was Cape Girardeau like anyway?” 18:15
Oh, I don’t know, it was on the Mississippi you know and the train tracks down there—
the bog down there and they had a ball diamond down there and everything and I guess it
flooded out half of the spring time, but we got inland a little bit more, but not much. We
were right down along the river park and that’s where the main part of the town was. It
was just a southern town, that’s all I can say, with a lot of railroad tracks and barges
going up and down the river and that was something for us to see.
Interviewer: “All right, I want to make sure we are kind of following the course of
your career here, so you trained with Muskegon, but you did not go to Muskegon?”
I went there—no, I got on the bus to South Bend.
12
�Interviewer: “You went to South Band?”
Yes, they just told me to get on the bus with South Bend. 19:12
Interviewer: “Did you play for South Band that season then?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “Ok, was this 1950 now?”
Yeah, this was 1950.
Interviewer: “Now, who were the really good veteran players for the South Bend
team at that point?”
They had Marge Stefani, she was a real good player, but right now, I think this was the
second year she had become a chaperone, so she was a chaperone when I got there.
Bonnie Baker was a second baseman and she was one of the main players and the stars,
more or less, of the whole thing. Shirley Stavroff was the catcher, she was the one that
made me sit on the bench for a couple years, but she was better. She was a pretty fair
hitter and she was from southern Illinois, I think. Jean Faut was the wife of Karl Winsch,
and she was probably one of the best, one of the top three pitchers in the league. She had
two perfect games in a row and all that good stuff. 20:16 I caught a couple one hitters
from her later on when I started catching. When Stavroff left the team and I moved in
and I was lucky enough to play the last couple years, 1953 and 1954 as a first string
catcher.
Interviewer: “Now, before that, would you just rotate occasionally?”
Yeah, for a double header and I always caught batting practice to help the pitchers out
with target and stuff. I would always hurry up and bat first and then I put my stuff on and
start catching the rest.
13
�Interviewer: “Would they use you as a pinch hitter or put you anywhere else?”
I pinch hit just a couple times, but they never put me in to pinch run. I just wasn’t that
speedy. 21:05
Interviewer: “Were you a good defensive catcher?”
Yeah, more so
Interviewer: “What did you do to keep the base stealers from going wild? Because
there were some women that were really good at stealing bases.”
It wasn’t the catchers—how are you going to stop them, it’s the pitcher that they’re
running on, but you usually knew who was going to run and who wasn’t going to run. I
had a pretty good arm down there and I caught some and some you didn’t get, but it
wasn’t too much one way or the other. I would catch some and not catch some.
Interviewer: “You were kind of like modern baseball now, you do steal, you do run
on the pitcher and if a catcher had a good arm you’re a little
more careful.”
I would shoot one down to first or third sometimes, just to keep them a little closer
because that wasn’t so far away and you could keep them a little more alert to what
they’re trying to do. 22:04
Interviewer: “And then did you have to call the games?”
Yeah, and you pretty well knew what your pitchers could pitch and you knew a little bit
how the batters were standing in the box. You knew some of that stuff and you would
pick it up and, of course, Karl knew some, the manager, because he was a pitcher in the
big leagues. He didn’t last too long, but during the war he did get to play. I enjoyed
14
�what you really learned about the game that fascinated me. I was one who wanted to
know.
Interviewer: “That’s good for a catcher.”
It helps you out a lot.
Interviewer: “You basically played, through your career, with the Blue Sox, or did
you?”
I finished up with the Blue Sox.
Interviewer: “Did you play for anyone else along the way?”
They loaned me to Kalamazoo for a month in 1950. Their catcher blew out a knee and I
went up there and then they finally got a catcher traded in from another team and I went
back to South Bend, that’s where you belonged 23:10
Interviewer: “Now, when you were playing in South Bend, could your family and
friends from Fort Wayne come over and watch you?”
No, but when we got in Fort Wayne I had the whole family there you know, and friends
and stuff. I hit a home run in Fort Wayne one time and that was nice, and I don’t
remember if it won the game or not. I didn’t get as many singles as a lot of people got,
but I’d just as sooner get a double or I never did get a triple, I don’t think, because I’m
not that fast, but I got a few home runs.
Interviewer: “You had some power?”
Yeah, if I hit the ball it usually went pretty fast from wherever. If it went in high enough,
I don’t know, but my favorite place was down third base and the short stop area on the
left side of the diamond.
Interviewer: “Did you play for any championship teams?” 24:08
15
�Oh yeah, I fell into that, in 1951, 1952, we were loaded with good pitchers, Sue Kidd,
Janet Ramsey, and Jean Faut, and I got to catch a little bit on that. In 1951 we won the
pennant that year and then we went on to win the little series at the end, and we were
champions of everything. Then in 1952 we had some—well, we didn’t have a lot of the
old players because twelve of them—quite a few of them, I think six or eight, walked out
at the end of 1951 and I got to catch in 1951 and 52. At the end of the season in 1951
and in 1952 we won both of them.
Interviewer: “And one of those seasons you only had like twelve players left on your
roster?”
Yeah, we was the “dutiful dozen”, that’s what the newspaper said, and that was
interesting. 25:07
Interviewer: “But you got the job done. All right, now you played until the league
ended in 1954. Those last couple years could you tell the league was having
trouble?”
Yeah, they were having financial trouble. The caliber of the game was still pretty good in
1953, but the older players were getting older and they were leaving. If they started in
1943,44 and 45, a lot of those was getting out at 1950, 52 and 53, so they were bringing
in a lot of rookies and people who had never played baseball before, of course you all had
to go through that, everybody that got in the league went through that. It was just one of
those things and in TV and everything and of course the major leagues took over the
television, and people stayed home, they didn’t come out to watch us much. We finished
the season, but you that was the end of the thing, we knew we weren’t coming back next
year, so everybody took their uniforms or their shirt and jackets and stuff. 26:17
16
�Interviewer: “In the 1953 season, you did go to the championship series again and
Grand Rapids won that year, but I think you were the ones that they beat, or else
they beat Fort Wayne, I forget.”
1953 wasn’t us
Interviewer: “Fort Wayne, all right, I’m getting my league history here—I’ve got to
make sure I got that straight, but you had—the Blue Sox had a couple of good years
in there, okay. Now, if the league had kept going would you have stayed with it a
while longer?”
Probably, but I don’t know. See, in 1953 when the season was over, and I knew we
would have another 1954 yet. I started college in the fall of 1953 and then in the spring
of 1953, when it was time to go to spring training, I saved all my skips in college and I
didn’t skip any out, so I could go to spring training, so they let me go to spring training.
27:15 I had to come back and take finals, but I took off after a ball game one night in
South Bend and drove down to Indianapolis, where I was going to school, and I got down
there and slept a couple of hours and then I had to go and take a couple finals and then a
couple in the morning and one in the afternoon. Then I had to drive back up to south
Bend and that night I think I had seven errors in that ball game. I overthrew second base,
I don’ know, I always threw to first base and I was so sleepy and everything I didn’t
know what I was doing. Anyway, that was the end of school for that year and I got out of
that all right.
Interviewer: “All right, and then you had to get through the last season. where
there fewer teams by then or were there other signs aside from smaller crowds?
How else could you tell there were problems?” 28:14
17
�I think we started with six teams that season, but somewhere in the middle we lost one of
them. I know we ended up with five, but I don’t think for the whole season. It was sad
because, you know, I got to play in 1951, 52 and 53 regularly and it takes that long to
learn the game and the people and everything else. Just about the time you’re ready to be
a good strong veteran for four or five more years, four or five more years wasn’t there.
That was sad, but you know, you met an awful lot of nice people and I can go all over the
country now and visit former players for South Bend or any place since we have these
reunions and things. 29:03
Interviewer: “Now, you went back to college after that was over and what did you
get your degree in?”
The same thing all the rest of them got it in. No, I ended up—I can teach English, I can
teach biology, I can teach physical education, genetics. I took a lot of biology because I
was thinking of going into being a doctor, but then I figured I wasn’t that smart. By that
time I had a lot of biology, vertebrae zoology, en vertebrae zoology, so I ended up being
a biology teacher, phys ed, health and a little bit of science teacher.
Interviewer: “Where did you teach?”
I started out in a little place outside of Elkhart. I went back up to live in south Bend
because some the old players, Blue Sox, had a basketball team and I wanted to play a
couple of years of basketball, so I taught in a little country school in Jimtown, we were
the “Jimtown Jimmy’s”, but it was a country school and there were very nice families
there, you know, just farm families. 30:23 We were just on the south end of Elkhart
where the railroad went through and some of the colored lived on the south of the
railroad, so we had those players, and those kids, along with the white kids, I had some
18
�real good teams, track teams, volleyball teams and basketball. We had a good little
school, and I enjoyed that a lot.
Interviewer: “Did you stay at that one school or did you move?”
I was there for twelve years and then my dad died. He went to bed one night and never
go out, and then I went back to live with my mom because I didn’t want her to have to
move and everything, and then I worked at Leo High School in--just east of Fort Wayne.
31:09 My old superintendent in Jimtown now the superintendent down in East Allen, so
he called on the phone up there during the daytime and the office lady answered and
when he was in Jimtown he was the principal and then superintendent , well she
recognized his voice on the telephone, so she came down to get me to tell me I had a
phone call, so I went back, walking through the hall, and I said, “Who is it?”. She said,
“It’s Roberts”, and I said, “What does he want?” She said, “you just tell him you can’t
come”, so he wanted me to come down to East Allen, so I ended up in East Allen, and it
was closer to home. I could drive every day.
Interviewer: “Now, as you were teaching and coaching and doing all of this, did
people know that you played professional baseball?”
Yeah, because some of them remembered because Elkhart’s just a little ways from South
Bend and Mishawaka, so they use to come and watch us play. 32:10 Then when we
went back, we still had a couple games in South Bend because every year or two they
would all get together and put on a little exhibition for the local people you know,
because it was the newspapers that would kind of want us to do some of that stuff. Of
course one night half of Jimtown came over to watch because they had seen some of it
before. I just had a good life all the way through.
19
�Interviewer: “You become an educator, and you’re teaching in a period when they
start to open up things in schools for women to do sports and this kind of thing, so
were you connected with that?”
Yeah, we started out; of course half the principals didn’t want the girls playing anyhow.
When I started teaching, the first thing I said to myself, I said, “these kids are going to
play”, so I had a real good principal though, that Mr. Sheets, he was the one that hired
me, and he had three daughters and that helped. 33:16 He left and became the
superintendent and then I had Mr. Jones and he had two daughters and that helped. I got
those kids in the gym playing volleyball games and basketball games with just the little
local schools around. We had maybe six games a year is all to start with and we were out
there playing. I had a couple friends that I said we played basketball in South Bend and
they were school teachers, so we played—I played Cynthia Sawyer’s kids in south Bend,
they were on the west side of town and they would drive over. This is one funny thing,
Cynthia Sawyer came over to have a track meet with her kids and a lot of them were
colored and some whites, and then I had the same thing, so they came over in two cars.
34:08 All these kids getting out of these two cars and my kids were sitting out there in
the grass waiting for them you know, because we had already warmed up somewhat, and
those kids are getting out of the car and my kid, half of them were colored and these other
guys got out of the car and they said, “my God they’re all black, what are we going to
do?” They were scared seeing these city colored kids coming out there, but we beat
them. You know, it’s funny how they acted sometimes. One time I had them up to the
lake, my GAAA kids, and half of them were colored and they were sitting up there in the
yard under the trees and the other white kids were out there on the piers and I said, “How
20
�come you guys are not out there swimming in the sun?” She said, “We don’t want to get
a sunburn”. Well here dumb me, I didn’t even know they get sunburns, so it was an
education having them and they were just good kids. I can’t believe how—see, I just
lucked into all that stuff. 35:06
Interviewer: “Did you coach girls teams or women’s teams? As you were saying,
the women were going to play did you do both? Did you coach boys teams as well as
women’s teams?”
No, you couldn’t get into the boys world, that’s all there was to it, no way under the sun.
I had to fight to get the gym once a week afterwards. Then we had a bowling league and
we went into town and went bowling, the girls. Then the boys were mad because they
couldn’t go in and go bowling, because I wasn’t going to take them, they were boys. I’d
take the girls because they wouldn’t let us in their gym; I’m not going to let them in the
bowling alley.
Interviewer: “Did this get a little easier over the course of time? Did people get
used to having girls play and this kind of stuff?”
Yeah, it took a while though, but finally you know, the kids I had come back from
college and stuff and they had been playing a little bit in college and it just grew out.
36:09 Another thing, they finally got a women’s advisory board down at the IHASSA
down in Indianapolis, well we had to run for that, so I talked to my principal about it and
he urged me to go into it and to write a letter to all the principals around the area. Well, I
did what I was told and I got voted on down there, so I was on that first advisory board
and I think I was on it about six years or so. They finally made this one lady a cocommissioner, now that helped and now the girls were ready to play and this was in the
21
�late sixties probably that we finally go t noticed down there in Indianapolis. We were at
the GAA was kind of the statewide and we had our own tournaments and then the state
finally recognized that too. 37:05 They couldn’t hide it too much longer, so then title
nine came in and we were off and running.
Interviewer: “So when you were playing, did you think of yourselves at all as sort of
pioneers or people who were opening things up for women?”
We didn’t know we were pioneers until fifty years later. A pioneer only means you’re
old I guess, I don’t know.
Interviewer: “It means you’re first, but it does seem there’s a pretty good
continuity here. You’re playing in this women’s league and you come back and you
stay connected with sports and as a teacher you’re actively involved in getting more
things for girls to do and building that up, and that’s drawing on your own
experience at least knowing they can go do it.”
Girls can do anything; just turn them loose, that’s all you got to say. They’re intelligent
you know and they don’t take much guff from anybody anymore. They’re raised
different today and it’s a different world. Just think, I got to be part of it. 38:20
Interviewer: “Now, do you look back over that whole experience of playing
professional ball, what do you think the main effects of that were for you? What did
it do for you?”
It opened you up a little bit to fight for what you wanted. I was lucky enough, I had good
principals and I was surrounded with good people. A lot of athletic women—you don’t
know how to say all that stuff. I think it was the right time or I never would have gotten
into that and if they didn’t move me into Fort Wayne I probably wouldn’t have even
22
�known they existed. I lucked out there and I happened to be the right age. I wasn’t too
smart, but I sure knew when to take advantage of something. 39:16
Interviewer: “You managed to become a science teacher. I think you’re pretty
qualified and smart. I would be willing to bet that anyway. Anything else you
would like to add to the record here before we close out the interview?”
Interviewer: “Were you connected at all with the League of Their Own movie and
the beginnings of the players association?”
Yeah, we got that notice in a newsletter, I think, that they were going to do all that stuff
and we just needed—a couple of us decided—Sue Kidd was still in South Bend, she went
along and Jean Harding went, a couple of them around. You got in a car and went to
New York.
Interviewer: “Cooperstown?”
Yeah, but first you had to go to Chicago. There’s one good thing about that, in Chicago,
I was trying to think of the area where we were. 40:18
Interviewer: “You were in Skokie.”
Yeah Skokie. In Skokie we were out to this ball diamond and we all had red shirts on
with big numbers on them you know, and everything and we were all working out,
running around the field’ hitting fly balls, and throwing and catching and this big bus
pulls out there along the side over there. Of course we had a fence around there and this
big bus comes and it stops out there and these big guys, big burly guys, get off that bus
and here comes a couple other women off, but they were far away, and these guys walk
way around the outfield and they just stand out there. 41:08 We were watching them
and wondering what they were there for and here comes Madonna walking down off the
23
�sidewalk and of course we were all looking at her. Rosy O’Donnell was there and she
was already out there talking to us and everything. Gina Davis, we didn’t see her there.
She never was up there. They had the little sister though, Lori Petty, she was there, so
that was our introduction to-Interviewer: “Hollywood”
Yeah, they came in and landed at the airport and she got off there and I guess nobody was
supposed to know she was in town and she had all this rig-a-ma-roll with her, but she
made a nice entrance. She was a pretty good ball player too, I mean, she was one of the
better ones.
Interviewer: “Did you have to teach her a lot?”
Not all that, you could see she’s athletic when you see her dance and that and she could
do about anything she wanted to. 42:14
Interviewer: “Some of the other players talked about going there and they said she
was in good shape, but she didn’t know how to play ball, but she learned and she
worked at it.”
She wasn’t too bad and probably the best one, because she use to play some, was Rosy
O’Donnell, but Madonna wasn’t too bad though.
Interviewer: “You also went to Cooperstown and were part of the stuff they filmed
there too?”
Yeah, we went there and there was a thing that happened there the last night at
Cooperstown. Penny Marshal wanted to finish up shooting, so we were there until about
four or four thirty in the morning and we had to walk down this ramp you know, and this
little room, they had a glassed in case right in the middle of the room, so you either had to
24
�go around to the right or the left as you came down the ramp. We came down that ramp I
bet twenty-four times. Penny had to keep reshooting everything, so I always went around
the back of the little ramp, so I wasn’t in the way of the film too much because I didn’t
want to be--anyway I’m going around that back. 43:22 Anyhow, Gina Davis, the old
Gina Davis, that took her place was going to walk around that way also, and she would
see her sister on the other side and they would finally embrace when they saw each other,
in the movie stuff. Well anyhow, were walking around this little thing and then we walk
back up again and after she’d get partway up there, she had a little flask under her arm
and she’d take a little nip out of that flask and then we’d walk down that ramp again and
around that thing and sometimes if she had to hesitate back there she’s take a nip from
the flask. I wasn’t too far behind her and thinking, no wonder we’re down here until four
thirty in the morning. She had to empty that thing almost because she was real busy on it.
44:15 She was something else, I’ll tell you. She tried to catch a ball out there and she
broke a fingernail and then she had to stop and the whole film would have to start over on
that. She should have been the whole movie herself, I’ll tell you. That was the old Gina
Davis. That was funny. Nobody else probably told you that one.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie?”
I thought it pretty well had a lot of truth in it, but a couple things—they never fell over
the fence and came up with a hot dog in their mouth or something like that, but that was
Pepper Pare, Pepper pare made some of that stuff, but that’s Pepper Pare, she always had
to have her two cents worth in. There’s a lot of them that got to have their two cents
worth in, but that makes everything. 45:15
Interviewer: “What do you think they did a particularly good job with?”
25
�In the movie, it was a pretty fair story because that little boy that was in the movie, we
had a little boy on our team. Jean Faut had a little boy, little Larry, that traveled with us
and we would pick on him somewhat, we tried not to because if you were picking on him
the other girls would tell you to quit, but we teased him, and Jean, she really, she kept her
cool, picking on her kid, but he was a nice kid and Jean was—you couldn’t beat Jean
Faut, that’s all there was to it and Karl was alright. Sometimes it wasn’t so good having
your husband managing you, and Jean had some hard times with that, but hey, that’s life.
When you’re that close together all the time, twenty-four hours a day. 46:16
Interviewer: “It really does sound like a great experience.”
Your whole life, you sit down and—I never talked about my whole life before, but the
best part of it, one of the best parts, was playing ball. You can’t beat playing ball and
meeting the people that you meet and learning the geography of the country and just
doing what you could do. It’s a free country and you could just do anything. Nobody
can stop you if you don’t want them to.
Interviewer: “Now you get to come back to these reunions and having been through
my second one now, they are really something. Had you been going to the reunions
since the beginning?”
I hit everyone, and one year we had one—we had a meeting in St. Petersburg and the
same year we went to Cooperstown. I was all ready—I sent my money in down there to
Florida and then two of the people I was going to go to Florida with decided they were
going to Cooperstown. 47:23 Well, there goes my ride down to Florida, so I rode with
them and went over to Cooperstown and that’s why I was in Cooperstown when they
26
�were doing some of that, but that was all right. I wasn’t on the board yet or anything,
things that didn’t bother too much.
Interviewer: “Unless we got something else here guys, we are done. We are done
and thank you very much for coming and talking to us.”
Thank you
27
�28
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
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eng
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2017-10-02
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_MLBaumgartner
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Baumgartner, Mary Louise "Wimp" (Interview transcript and video), 2010
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Baumgartner, Mary Louise
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Mary Louise "Wimp" Baumgartner was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1930. She played in the AAGPBL from 1949 to 1954 as a catcher for Peoria and South Bend. She went to college in the off season, and after the league folded she became a teacher and coach for girls' athletic teams, and was actively involved in the promotion of girls' sports in Indiana.
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Indiana
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2010-08-05
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d7c8e56a947cf14c227df7c95a40a7c7.mp4
f2007af960eb8ef03eb27a4ca67fb2b5
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cfb2f77e51df20e40bcaebd46ab1d604.pdf
f4eb4baaa39ebb63af181aa15cc23b2e
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
KATE VONDERAU
Women in Baseball
Born: Fort Wayne, Indiana September 26, 1927
Resides: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, March 6, 2011
Interviewer: “Kate, can you begin with a little bit of personal background to start
with? Where and when were you born?”
I was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana on September 26, 1927
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living at that time?”
My dad was a maintenance man for the Fort Wayne public schools and my mother was a
bookkeeper, so they both worked.
Interviewer: “Were they able to keep those jobs through the thirties?”
Yes
Interviewer: “So you had enough to eat, at least, growing up. How many kids were
in the family?”
There were three of us, I had two brothers, two older brothers, so I was the youngest and
the only girl, which is an advantage you know.
Interviewer: “How did you windup getting into sports?” 14:34
My dad was always interested in sports and I started with him and we would go out and
play catch and I got interested in playing softball. I started playing softball with a sand
lot team in Fort Wayne and I started that when I was about twelve years old. I played all
through my teens with that team until the All American Girls came to town and they had
tryouts, so I tried out with them and I was able to make the team and I started playing
1
�with them in 1946. I had to wait until I graduated from high school and I started playing
with them. 15:20
Interviewer: “So did you first learn about the league in 1946 or had you heard
about it before that?”
I heard about it before that because Fort Wayne had a team and they started playing, I
think it was, about 1943, so I had known about it before 1946.
Interviewer: “Was that the team that moved from Minnesota?”
They came from Milwaukee.
Interviewer: “Milwaukee, I knew one of them did and Grand Rapids came form
someplace, so 1944 or 45 in there someplace, not 43 right away.”
Yes
Interviewer: “You’re aware of the league, you were playing organized ball, was
that a popular thing for girls to do?”
Yes it was, there were a lot of softball teams in Fort Wayne, a lot of leagues and most
girls of teenage were playing on some kind of organized softball team.
Interviewer: “What position did you normally play?” 16:17
Fist of all first baseman and then we ran out of catchers, so I started catching and that
became my position.
Interviewer: “All right, now when you were catching in softball, did you do the
things that baseball catchers will do? Do you try to call pitches or any of that kind
of thing?”
We didn’t do that too much in softball because our softball pitchers back in those days
only had one pitch—to get it over the plate, so I didn’t have to call too many pitches. I
2
�just had to catch whatever they threw at me, so I didn’t have to do that too much in that
day and age.
Interviewer: “Now, tell me about the tryout then for the league. How did that take
place?”
I don’t remember too much about that really. They had a day when they had people
come to a certain place in Fort Wayne and I don’t even remember what that place was. It
was someplace in Fort Wayne, so I didn’t have to leave the city and we had, of course,
throwing and hitting and that sort of thing and played practice games and they evaluated
us form all of that and they decided whether or not they thought we would be successful
in the league. 17:35
Interviewer: “Do you have a sense of how many girls were trying out then?”
I don’t recall—I don’t recall at all.
Interviewer: “Do you figure a few dozen or a few hundred or two?”
Oh no, not a hundred, maybe a couple dozen at the most.
Interviewer: “Were you trying out simply to get into the league or were you
actually trying out for the Fort Wayne team?”
Just to get into the league at that time, but I was then taken by the Fort Wayne team and I
played with them and I played with Fort Wayne, which is my hometown. 18:28
Interviewer: “Was that the first place you played for?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Who were some of the veteran players on that team when you joined
it?”
3
�Let’s see, Dotty Collins was on that team and Dolly Schroeder, I can’t remember too
many of the others at that time, those are the two that come to my mind immediately. I
guess they were the most prominent two.
Interviewer: “When you joined, you mentioned that you had to wait until your high
school graduation before you started to play, so you missed whatever kind of spring
training they had that year?”
No, I did go to spring training. I went to Cuba and I don’t remember what year that was
that I went to spring training in Cuba.
Interviewer: “Cuba was 1948 maybe?” 19:16
I went to Pascagoula one year and then I went to Cuba another year for spring training,
but the dates escape me, I can’t relate the dates to the places.
Interviewer: “Those we can track down, but do you remember what year was your
first season then? When did you start playing?”
1946
Interviewer: “I think Cuba was a couple years later than that, 1948 or something
like that. So, you joined the Fort Wayne team, do you remember your first game?”
No, I really don’t—I remember one of the games—I caught Dolly Collins and she had a
tremendous curve ball and I would start in one position and catch the ball and by the time
I caught it I was two feet to the right of where I started in order to catch it, so she had a
really tremendous curve ball. 20:16
Interviewer: “Now, did some of those go as passed balls or wild pitches? Would
you lose some of her pitches? As a catcher would you miss some of them?”
4
�Oh no, not too many, not too many, I could usually catch up with it somewhere along the
line.
Interviewer: “There were a number of players in the league who were sort of
notorious as base stealers. You get someone like Sophie Kurys stealing two hundred
in one season and that kind of thing.”
There was only one like that, and it was Sophie Kurys.
Interviewer: “Right, now did you get much of a chance to throw batters out?”
Oh yeah, a lot
Interviewer: “Were you good at it?”
Yeah, I was fairly good at it, and I had a pretty good arm and threw to second base on the
line pretty well. If the pitcher game me time, I could usually get it there on time. A lot of
times the pitcher didn’t give you time to do that. 21:10
Interviewer: “Were you a good hitter?”
No-- in softball I was a really good hitter. I usually got two or three hits every game, but
in baseball the ball was smaller and the pitchers had more control of the different pitcher,
so I was not a very good hitter in baseball, which was too bad, but that’s the way it goes.
Interviewer: “Were you a good defensive catcher though?”
Yes, I was that
Interviewer: “Even in this day, you can have a low batting average if you can do the
rest of the job. How long did you stay in the league?”
I was in the league about eight years, until 1953.
5
�Interviewer: “That’s a pretty good stretch there. Now at the time you joined the
league, how much of the rules and regulations was on dress and behavior? How
much of that was still in place?”
It was the dress code, having to dress in dresses each time you left the bus, that was still
in place, but the charm school was gone, I never had to do that, but we did have to follow
the dress code pretty closely and we had to know fraternization rules, we were not to
fraternize with the other teams and that sort of thing, so those types of things were still in
effect. 22:34
Interviewer: “Did they regulate things like who people could go out on dates with
or that sort of thing?”
Yeah, the chaperones watched that pretty closely.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the chaperones?”
They were very good. The chaperones we had on the teams I played for were all very
good, and I liked them a lot. We couldn’t have done without them.
Interviewer: “What about the managers?”
The managers were also ok. I played for Jimmy Foxx and he was about like he was in
the movie, but was certainly a gentleman, but he wasn’t always as sober as he could have
been, but he was always a gentleman. I played for Max Carey, I played for Bill
Wambsganns, and they were both major league ball players and they were both very
good, so I played for some good manager. I played for Leo Schrall in Peoria and he was
a teacher at one of the colleges in Peoria, I don’t remember what the name of it was.
23:46 He was a very good manager, he was interested in teaching us actually—how to
6
�do things. The others assumed that we knew everything, so he was more a teacher than
he was a coach, so it was very good to play for him.
Interviewer: “What kind of living accommodations did you have?”
When I played for Fort Wayne I lived at home, but when we were on the road, of course,
we lived in hotels and when I played with, like Muskegon, the chaperones found us
private homes to live in and the living accommodations were good. We were always
very comfortable and the chaperones made sure of that, so we were very well supervised.
They took good care of us because we were just youngsters and they watched us pretty
carefully. 24:34
Interviewer: “How much did they pay you to start?”
I would just guess, off the top of my head, sixty five dollars a week or something like
that, which was a lot of money back in those days and especially if you’re living at home
because you didn’t have any expenses. On the road, all your expenses were paid, so I
didn’t have to spend a lot of my money, but when I lived in Muskegon I had to live in
somebody else’s home and then I had some expenses. I always had plenty of money.
Interviewer: “Did you save some of that money?”
Oh yeah. And I went to school later and I went to school, and I went to school, and I went
to school.
Interviewer: “We’ll get into that a little later on here. Now, tell me about some of
the spring training experiences. You said you made the trip down to Cuba, what do
you remember about that?” 25:29
I remember that—that was at the time when Castro was up in the hills and people down
in Havana were shaking that he was going to come down there and capture the city,
7
�which I guess he did eventually. The food was not edible as far as I was concerned and I
lived on the pineapples they sold on the street corner. We were very popular with—the
games were very popular and well attended and people really appreciated the way we
played the game, so it was interesting, very interesting.
Interviewer: “Did you also recruit players in Cuba?”
Yes, we still have a few of them; well we still have one of them that’s here. Have you
interviewed her? She’s-Interviewer: “Lefty Alvarez”
Ah huh, Isabel ah huh, she’s interesting. I played with another one; her name was
Marrero, Mirtha Marrero, I think, who was a pitcher, so when they announced, before the
game they announced the battery, so when they announced the battery she was pitching,
and they and they announced Marrero and Vonderau. 26:53
Interviewer: “Where else did you go for spring training?”
Ah, Pascagoula, which was not too bad, but it was a little buggy and we lived in barracks
and the weather was very hot, I remember that. We had trouble staying out in the sun all
day long and we would get so sunburned we could hardly stand it, but otherwise it was
ok.
Interviewer: “In addition to sort of doing your training down there, did you do any
barnstorming or traveling around playing?”
Yes we did, we played there in Pascagoula and that area, and then we played games all
over, way back up to our hometowns. If it was in Muskegon, we would play games all
the way back up until we got there. 27:54 We did a lot of playing in states along the
way.
8
�Interviewer: “How long did you play in Fort Wayne?”
How long? I played with Fort Wayne several times. I would play with fort Wayne and
get traded away and get traded back, so I’d say maybe four or five years with Fort
Wayne.
Interviewer: “What was the first team you got traded to?”
Muskegon, Muskegon Lassies
Interviewer: “Did they trade you before the season or in the middle of the season?”
That, I don’t remember, I would have to look at my baseball card.
Interviewer: “Were you sorry to leave home or were you looking forward to the
adventure when you left?” 28:46
I was looking forward to being on another team. It was always an adventure. I
remember getting traded to Chicago, the Chicago Colleens, and when I got to Chicago I
had about five dollars in my pocket and I had to borrow money from one of my friends to
get where I was going and where I was supposed to be. I was a little bit short.
Interviewer: “Was it different playing in these different towns? Was Muskegon
different from Fort Wayne or Chicago, either of them?”
The game was pretty much the same. It was always different playing for a different
manager, but the game itself was not that much different.
Interviewer: “What about the surroundings and the people who came to the
games?”
That might have been a bit more different. Playing in my hometown, I think the people
were a little more hostile than they were in other towns where I wasn’t that well known.
It’s always hard to play in your own hometown. 29:48
9
�Interviewer: “They were hostile when you were playing for Fort Wayne?”
Yes, because I was from Fort Wayne and if I made a mistake, that was pretty bad news
because I was a Fort Wayne native.
Interviewer: “Did you have a lot of steady fans there?”
Oh yes, a lot of fans that came every day for every game we played and every night, so
they were the same fans day and night after night, and they heckled you night after night.
They paid to do that, so that was their privilege.
Interviewer: “What kind of people went to the games?”
Just ordinary, average, run of the mill people.
Interviewer: “Were they all ages?”
Yes, all ages
Interviewer: “Men and women?”
Yeah, yeah, and I think they were probably more—probably a little bit older because the
younger people were gone to war, so these were all people who were a little bit older than
they would have been had they been able to go to was, so they were a little bit older.
31:04
Interviewer: “In the late forties we didn’t have a was going on. You got Korea, but
that started up in 1950 though, so you got a certain amount of that there too. Are
there particular moments in your playing career that stand out? When you think
back to playing ball, what do you think of?”
Well, I think of the game itself I guess because I loved playing so much. You can stand
any kind of conditions if you like to play, so—people talk about playing in those skirts,
10
�well, we didn’t care what we played in as long as we got to play so, it was the game itself
and getting to play the game and the competition. It was just fun. 31:51
Interviewer: “What separated that game from the softball you had been playing
before?”
Well, the competition was better and a little more intense, and the game itself was a little
more difficult. The hitting was more difficult and the bases were longer and the pitching
was overhand, so the game was a little bit harder to play, but it was still just as much fun.
Interviewer: “Where else did you play? You mentioned you were in Muskegon,
you were in Chicago, and you were in Fort Wayne and Peoria. What was the team
there?”
The Peoria Red Wings
Interviewer: “Did they last only a short time?”
Oh no, they were in the—Chicago is the one that lasted only a short time, but Peoria was
–they were in the league quite a while. 32:47 They weren’t one of the original teams,
but they were one of the teams that lasted about eight years or something like that.
Interviewer: “Now when you were playing for these different teams, did any of
them make it to a championship series?”
Yeah, we did with Muskegon we went to the championship.
Interviewer: “Now, did you win?”
Ah, I think we won once with Fort Wayne and we got to the championship series in
Muskegon, but we lost the last game, but we did win once in Fort Wayne and I remember
getting a watch or something for having won the championship.
Interviewer: “Were you the regular catcher for the teams that you played for?”
11
�Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depended on who happened to be on the team at the
same time I was, so I wasn’t always the first sting catcher, sometimes I was second.
Interviewer: “As second string catcher, did you still get to play fairly regularly?”
Oh yes 33:49
Interviewer: “You played so many games you probably had to.”
Yes
Interviewer: “How did the game change over the course of time that you were
playing? Did they do different things with the rules and the size of the ball and
things like that? How was it different at the time you ended your career than at the
time you started?”
I can’t remember that the game itself was all that much different. It was just the ball, the
size of the ball that made it a little bit faster, but the other rules of the game didn’t really
change all that much that I can recall. I just recall the smaller ball, but it was still the
same game, just a little bit faster game.
Interviewer: “Was it harder to catch in baseball than it was in softball? Was your
job harder?”
Yes, because the pitchers threw more different types of pitches and I had to call the types
of pitches that they were throwing, so it became more complicated. 34:50
Interviewer: “Did you learn the batters and that kind of thing the same way they do
these days, so you could now who hit what?”
Yeah, yeah we did that
Interviewer: “Did you have pitchers that didn’t like having you tell them what to
pitch?”
12
�No, not really, they didn’t check me off all that much, but there were some who probably
did. I had a couple pitchers that were maybe a little bit hostile, so if they threw me a low
pitch I threw the ball back to them and if they threw me a high pitch I threw the ball back
to her high, so I had to get even with her somehow.
Interviewer: “Now, as these games were going on, was there—did the managers
make much of an effort to signal to you, while you were catching, to tell you what
pitches to call?”
No, they didn’t do that too much, not unless we got into serious trouble. They didn’t do
that a whole lot. 35:53
Interviewer: ―Did they do the thing where they come out to the mound and talk to
the pitchers?”
Oh yes, they did that occasionally, just like they do in the major leagues.
Interviewer: “Why did you wind up leaving the league, why did you stop playing?”
Well, I was getting injured quite often, more often than I thought I should. I figured that
I had a few more years of my life to go and maybe I better preserve my body a little bit,
so I could live the rest of my life, and the league was about ready to fold too at that time,
so I just decided to stop. 36:34
Interviewer: “What was your last season?”
1953
Interviewer: “How could you tell the league was in trouble by then?”
Well, the attendance had dripped an awful lot and they had started the traveling leagues,
so the handwriting was on the wall and there wasn’t too much doubt that it was going to
fold pretty soon.
13
�Interviewer: “Once you made the decision then to quit, what did you do next?”
Then I went back to college and studied to be a teacher and I taught for about thirty years
after that.
Interviewer: “What level did you teach at?”
All levels, I started in elementary and I taught at junior high, high school, and then to the
university.‖
Interviewer: “What University did you teach at?”
The University of Wisconsin at Whitewater.
Interviewer: ―What were you teaching?”
Physical education, along the way and when I got to the University I was teaching—we
were training physical educators to go teach. That was basically what I was doing. 37:46
Interviewer: “As you were doing these things, teaching at these different levels, did
people know that you had played professional baseball?”
No, not really, no, not really, not until I got to the college level I guess, it never came up.
Interviewer: “When did you start teaching at the college level?”
About 1966 or something like that.
Interviewer: “But there were people who remembered something about the league
or knew that it existed?”
No, because I was teaching in the Midwest. Well, I taught in Wisconsin, but people were
not really aware of the league by that time. Of course it had died about ten years before
that and they had forgotten all about it I guess. It didn’t really come up all that much
until I guess, it was about the time of retirement was when it came up and they started
talking about it, or when the movie came out, maybe that’s when it was. 38:46
14
We
�didn’t really discuss it that much before that. It just never occurred to me, I guess, to
discuss it and I never had the opportunity to discuss it.
Interviewer: “Did you get actively involved in building up girls or women’s sports
programs?”
Yes
Interviewer: “What kinds of things did you do at these different places you
taught?”
I was coach for softball in college, we didn’t do too much at the other levels, at the high
school level, they didn’t really have competitive programs at that time, but at the college
level I coached softball, I coached volleyball I guess that’s all. Those are about the only
two things I coached.
Interviewer: “And were you still doing that when the Title IX legislation went
through and they began to expand things?”
Yeah 39:45
Interviewer: “What was your response to that when it happened? What did you
think of that?”
Well, it was fine, I—one thing I didn’t like about it was—when I coached, all the people
who came out for the sport, I taught them as much as I could as far as softball was
concerned. I let them play, so they could learn how to play, but when the title nine
started it was a different situation. You had to let the most talented people play, so you
had to be focused more on winning and that wasn’t my type of thing. I wanted to be a
teacher and teach them how to play and make sure they knew about the softball game
rather than just work with the skilled people. 40:37
15
�Interviewer: “Now, while you were actually playing in the league yourself, did you
think about how unusual this was that you were doing this, or of you yourself as
being a pioneer by going out and doing something new?”
No, I never thought about it, no, not until years and years later. When somebody told us
we were pioneers, then we thought about it, but it never occurred to us.
Interviewer: “You were doing it because they were paying you to play ball.”
Yes, and we loved playing ball. I would have played without the pay, so it didn’t make
any difference. They could have paid me half the salary and I still would have played, so
we just loved playing and it was an opportunity to play, so played and that’s all.
Interviewer: “When you look back at your career, what effect do you think it had
on you? How did it affect you, just being able to go and play for those years and
have that experience?” 41:36
I don’t really know how to answer that. I was a little bit more shy, I think, when I first
started and it got you out among people and made it easier to meet people and talk to
people and just that sort of thing. Otherwise, I don’t know what else to say about that.
Interviewer: “do you think it gave you a certain level of confidence and the ability
to go out and do things?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “When you were, say eighteen or nineteen, did you think you would
end up teaching college somewhere?”
No, it never occurred to me then, nope.
16
�Interviewer: “If you were asked to, and you probably have been asked to, to review
the movie “A League of their Own”, what would you say about it? 42:40 What
worked well? What did they get wrong?”
Well, I think it was about eighty-five percent true, what they’ve done, and I was very
pleased with it. They did a good job, but some of the scenes that they put in, I know,
were for entertainment only, and just to attract people, so they would like the film a little
bit better. It distracted from what we actually did, but I can understand why they did it. I
still enjoyed the movie a lot and I thought they did a nice job.
Interviewer: “What aspect of your experiences as a ball player do you think they
did a good job with?”
The games themselves, the coaching of the games and the relationships, like the two
sisters, and the competitive part of it, that was good and I thought the whole thing, as a
whole, was good except for—like doing the splits and ending up with a hotdog and the
manager being in the locker room, that never would have happened, and those types of
things. 43:58 Everything else, I thought was good. Some of the things they did, as far
as the chaperones, were a concern—we use to play trick on the chaperones, but I think
they went a little bit farther than they needed to go in the movie, but we did those types of
things though—it was not too far off.
Interviewer: “If you just think back again to the time you spent in the league, are
there other particular memories or stories that come back to you that you haven’t
mentioned yet?”
17
�No, I can’t really think of anything. You know, this is so long ago, fifty years ago, and a
lot of things escape me and I can’t remember things as vividly as I once did, so I can’t
think of anything else that would stand out at the moment. 45:03
Interviewer: “Well, you managed to tell us quite a bit, so thank you very much for
coming in and talking to us.”
Thank you.
18
�19
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_KVonderau
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Vonderau, Kate (Interview transcript and video), 2010
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Vonderau, Kate
Description
An account of the resource
Kate Vonderau was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1927. She grew up playing ball with her brothers. She learned about the AAGPBL when the Daisies came to Fort Wayne, and tried out for and made the team in 1946. She was a catcher, and eventually spend eight seasons in the league, playing for Peoria, Muskegon and Chicago as well as Fort Wayne. She attended college in the off season and became a teacher after her playing career, starting in elementary school, then moving on to high school and college teaching, and coached college softball and volleyball teams.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Illinois
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-05
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/81a0480cc77717a3359e57c2844ecb8e.mp4
12b61f99188ef3d9178abfc7e4efcd9e
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b3144a3e39a6acecd54dbe35543fff1e.pdf
f58fcb3f0fc5c27fe3e58abd78f3e892
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
NOELLA LeDUC
Women in Baseball
Born: December 23, 1933
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit,
MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 19, 2011
Interviewer: “If we could begin with your full name and where and when you were
born?”
Noella LeDuc, Graniteville, Massachusetts, date of birth, 12-23-1933.
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like? Where did you grow-up and
your family?”
Well, it was a small town and I played baseball all of the time, most of the time. I had a
ballpark across the street from my house and if I wasn‟t there the boys came over and got
me. We would pick sides and play all morning and in the afternoon we would go
swimming, come home and after supper, go play ball again and then go home and go to
bed. 33:35 My mother and father always knew where to find me—at the ball field.
Interviewer: “What was your early schooling like? How was school?”
School was good and I went as far as the freshman year in high school because I heard
about the girl‟s baseball. My freshman year I had come home from school and I had seen
the boys playing across the street from my house and I wondered why they were playing
there because they had their own field, our field was better though, so I went in the house
and changed my clothes and ran over there again, to the field, and the boys came up and
asked if I would hit some fly balls to them to get ready for the game. I said, “sure”, and I
did that for about ten minutes and went back and sat on the bench. This man came up to
1
�me and asked me if I would like to play professional baseball and I said, “yeah, I‟m
trying to because I saw it in a magazine”, and he said, “well, there‟s a girl eight miles
from here that plays”, and he gave me her name and address and everything, which is
Rita Briggs. 34:37 He said, “she‟s gone right now, she left for spring training and she‟ll
be home in October. I‟ll give you her address and you can go up and see her in October”.
I did that and the first time I went up there she wasn‟t home yet, she was a little bit late
coming home. I went up the following week and she was there, and when I got there they
were giving her a party, so she said, “I‟ll come and see you tomorrow, give me your
address”, and she did, she came to see me the next day, which was a Sunday. She tried
me out, throwing the ball, hitting and all that stuff and she said, “you‟ll make it”, so that‟s
how I did.
Interviewer: “How old were you?”
I was seventeen when I started, yeah.
Interviewer: “I‟m kind of curious because the man that told you to go and talk to
her, was he a scout?”
No, he worked with my mother in the mill. My mother worked in a mill and he worked
with my mother. He introduced himself because I didn‟t know him. He said, “I know
your mother because I work with her”, and all that stuff and then he told me about Rita
and gave me her address and everything. 35:38 He had seen her play at the high school
where she lived. She was on the boy‟s team at the school.
Interviewer: “You said you saw the notice in a magazine?”
Yeah, it was in the newspaper, newspaper magazine. Yeah, Dottie Schroeder was right
on the cover and I said to my dad, “I‟m going to beat her dad”, and I did at times.
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�Interviewer: “Oh my gosh, but we‟ll check with her on that one right?”
Well, she is dead she‟s dead. She was a good ball player, very good.
Interviewer: “So you met the woman who was already playing and she told you
how to contact the league? Is that right?”
No, she gave me a tryout when she came home and she said, “you won‟t have any trouble
making it, and come spring training you‟ll go out with me and this other girl from Rhode
Island”, and I went out with them and they tried me out again over there and they said,
“you got it”. 36:37
Interviewer: “Well, how did you get there?”
We drove out.
Interviewer: “So somebody had a car?”
Yeah, Rita Briggs, she had a car.
Interviewer: “Your parents were ok with this?”
Yeah, well, my grandfather was a priest, so when he heard I was going to play ball he
went and checked it out and he said, “It‟s ok, she‟ll be all right”, because of the rules we
had and everything you know. He said, “she‟ll be ok”.
Interviewer: “I want you to go back to that first day of tryouts. You said you drove
out there in a car, were you excited about this?”
Oh yeah, I was a little nervous too because it was my first time being away from home
without my parents, so I was a little nervous, but they encouraged me a bit, and Marilyn
Jones, they said, “don‟t worry you‟ll make it”.
Interviewer: “Take us back, what was it like to show up there? Were there a lot of
girls out there playing?” 37:32
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�No, first of all we went to the office and signed up and all this and that. They told me
how much money I would make and all that baloney you know, and the next day we had
to go to the clubhouse at the ballpark and get our uniforms and start practicing and all
that, and Johnny Rawlings was my manager, and a good man, good man.
Interviewer: “So, this was 1951?”
1951, yes
Interviewer: “Now, by that time, was the league throwing overhand?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Did you have any experience playing overhand baseball?”
Yeah, because I was with the boys all the time, I didn‟t have a problem with that, and the
ball was a little bit bigger when I went in, just a little bit bigger than a regular baseball.
In 1954 they went back to the size of a regular baseball and that was nice because I could
get my hand on it good you know, but I didn‟t have any trouble with the ball they had, it
was only slightly bigger you know.” 38:32
Interviewer: “So, what was the first season like? You‟re a rookie, right?”
Yes I was a rookie, yeah, yeah, and another girl was young too just like me, seventeen
and we got going in spring training and all that and then we got into the season, I was
playing, I got a base hit and I got down to second base on this gals base hit and then
another one came up and I had to—excuse me, that was wrong—they tried to pick me off
at second base, they figured she‟s a rookie and she isn‟t going to—I was ready, so she
made a bad throw and I made a beeline for third base and as I was running I dislocated
my elbow and Johnny gives me the sign to slide, so I slide, I‟m a little bit too close to the
4
�bag, but I said, “I got to do what he says”, so I injured the ligaments in my ankle, so I was
out for a little while on that, and I had to go to the doctors. 39:32
Interviewer: “The first season, you didn‟t sit on the bench? You were actually
playing?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “Wow, and what position?”
I was playing in the outfield, left field or right field.
Interviewer: “That first season, you of course played for what team?”
The Peoria Red Wings
Interviewer: “What did the uniform look like?”
It was white with a little red on it, the home uniform and the road uniform, I believe, was
red, and we had a red hat.
Interviewer: “How did you like the uniform?”
Well, I would rather of had pants because when you scratch up your legs and I tore my
knees open twice you know you—especially in South Bend, that was terrible. I had to
slide home and I scraped this whole knee out and blood was pouring out, so they cleared
the bench so I could sit and the chaperone would clean it up. Then they poured the
methiolate on it and you know how that feels, whewee and a couple of the girls were
blowing on it so it wouldn‟t sting so much. 40:36 They taped me up and I went out in
the field again. I got that all healed up and the first thing you know I got this leg.
Interviewer: “What was it like playing—now you played with the boys when you
were very young, you played through most of your younger years and now you‟re
5
�playing in professional baseball. How was that? Did you feel like you were good
enough? Did you feel like you were still a rookie? How did you feel?”
Well, I felt—I was pretty proud to get there and I felt good about it. I was nervous at
times because when you‟re young, seventeen, you‟re going to be nervous, but eventually
that went away and I just settled right down and went with it. Johnny, he was an
excellent, excellent man to work for, he was very good.
Interviewer: “One of the things I‟ve asked everybody about is their manager. Did
he treat you like a woman or did he treat you like a ball player?” 41:39
Like a ball player, and if we had to make a double play on anybody and someone‟s on
first base and want to get on second they want to get out of the way. He said, “aim for
the horn”. He called the nose the horn and he said, “If they don‟t dive they‟re going to
have a black eye”, but they are going to move if a balls coming at their head you know.
Interviewer: “The other question about managers is, several women have said that
even though they knew how to play baseball, the managers taught them little
professional tricks that they didn‟t even know about. Did you learn certain things
from them like how to slide or run or throw the ball that was different than what
you did?”
Well, I really didn‟t do any sliding when I was young you know and they told you how to
do that and we never went in with our bellies like that, never that way. It was feet first
and they told you how to do it and sometimes you‟re going to get hurt you know like I
did. 42:38
Interviewer: “How were the fans your first season?”
6
�They were nice they were nice, yeah. I remember one night I was playing right field and
also, the manager‟s always teach you—you always know how many outs there are, where
you‟re going to throw the ball if you get it, where the base runners are and all this and
that. So, this particular night I was playing right field, so I said to myself, “well, I got a
runner on third and if that balls hit to me, I got to get it in quick because she‟s fast”, so
the ball was hit to me and my momentum carried me over the foul line a little bit, so I had
to make a quick turn and make a quick throw home and I made a bullet throw and nailed
her. You should have heard the crowd, “wow, what an arm, what an arm”, and that made
me feel good, that was good. We had a pretty big crowd that night too. 43:35
Interviewer: “The first season, did a lot of people show up at these games?”
Yeah, yeah
Interviewer: “It wasn‟t until later that things changed?”
Yeah, they got down
Interviewer: “We‟ll get to that later, but I just wanted to make sure—the first
season you had a lot of people show up?”
Yeah, we had good crowds, yes.
Interviewer: “Now, you had chaperones, but you were too late for the charm school
right? You didn‟t have to go through all that?”
No, they told us what we had to do.
Interviewer: “What did you have to do?”
Well, you have to be dressed properly at all times, you have to speak good to all people
and not be nasty to them, and if anybody gets nasty with you, you just turn around and
walk away, you don‟t get nasty. That‟s what they told us to do and that‟s what we did.
7
�Interviewer: “But you were wearing blue jeans all the time, right?”
Well, when we could, we could you know. When you were living in your home you
could, but if you went out, you had to put on a skirt, but one time we snuck out. My
landlady had to go to the drugstore down the street, I had to get something, my
medication and I said, “Oh, I‟ll just run down in my shorts”, and I ran down there and I
ran back quick and Hazel said, “you better get out of here”, and I said, “yeah, I will”.
44:53 She was my landlady you know.
Interviewer: “Let‟s talk about that, when you started with this league you had to
have living arrangements, so what were your living arrangements the first season?”
Joyce Westerman, who you are going to be interviewing tomorrow, I lived with her and
Maggie Russo at Hazel‟s house. Maggie played a year before me and Joyce played quite
a few years, she was a veteran. They took care of me too. They helped me a lot and I
call Joyce my boss. She is a good girl, very good lady. 45:35
Interviewer: “So, you were staying in somebody‟s house, you had your own room or
did you share a room?”
No, I had a room upstairs because my landlady‟s mother use to live up there and she had
passed away, so Hazel put me up there because they had this nice big room up there, and
Joyce and Maggie lived downstairs.
Interviewer: “How was your social life during this period of time?”
Well, do you mean with men?”
Interviewer: “Just anything, going out to movies or anything.”
8
�Oh yeah, after ball games or rained out games, we would go to movies and stuff like that,
or go shopping you know, but I didn‟t have time for men. My mind was on baseball and
that was it.
Interviewer: “The money was pretty good though?”
Yeah, it was not bad, I didn‟t think it was too bad because I use to send some of it home
to my mom. I kept just enough, what I needed, and I would send the rest to her. I wanted
her to have it and what did she do? She put it in a bank account, a good mama. She
knew it was hers and she could get it anytime she wanted, if she needed it you know.
46:38
Interviewer: “So then you play your first season, do you come back home?”
Yup
Interviewer: “Were you finishing school?”
I didn‟t go back, I had to go to work and everything because I had to help out at home a
little bit, and if February my father died, so—no, no, that‟s a little bit too soon it was
1954 that my father died.
Interviewer: “So, you had to work, and did anybody at work know that you had
played professional baseball?”
Yeah, because all I had to do is walk in the building and, “you got a job”, really.
Interviewer: “So, how did you find out—did you already know you were going to
play a second season or did you find out some other way?”
They told us we were going to move to Battle Creek, Michigan the following year and
that year we had spring training down in North Carolina, was it North Carolina or South
Carolina? I don‟t remember exactly, but we had spring training down there with Fort
9
�Wayne, Indiana and Jimmy Fox was managing then. He was a good man, that man was a
good man. 47:47 We had Guy Bush for a manager, he was with Chicago, he was a
Chicago player, a pitcher. We‟re working our way back after spring training and we stop
at Washington D.C to play a game and I‟m out in the field and looking around in the
stands for my parents because they were going to come and see me. He comes up and
pats me on the back and he said, “I‟m going to make a pitcher out of you Pink”, and I
didn‟t want to do that, but I said, “I‟ll do it”. so a couple of the girls took me to the
mound and they started showing me what to do and all that, and all of a sudden the
clouds came and it was black and it was going to rain and I‟m looking for my folks. He
said, “We‟re going to go because it‟s going to rain”, and they threw us on the bus and
took us to Alexandria Virginia where we were staying and my parents couldn‟t find me,
but they knew where to find me at the hotel, they knew where I was going to be staying.
48:45 They found me over there and I got a phone call, “we‟re here”, and they took me
and Rita Briggs out to eat and everything and the next day they went back home.
Interviewer: “They never got a chance to see you play?”
No, my dad never got to see me play because when I got hurt in Peoria Johnny wouldn‟t
let me play. He said, “you still have that cracking noise in that elbow and I don‟t like
that”, and one of the girls said, “let her play, let her play, her mother and father are here”,
and he said, “No, I don‟t like that cracking noise”. He used to work my arm and
everything and he didn‟t like that cracking noise. I said, “Johnny, it don‟t hurt and the
doctor said I‟m fine”, but he said, “No, you‟re going to have to wait a little while”.
That‟s the way he was and he wanted to be sure you were healthy. 49:34
Interviewer: “Where did you get the name “Pinky”?”
10
�Rita Briggs gave me that. We were in Lowell Massachusetts, the season was over and we
went to a movie and we were walking down the street looking in the windows. There
were some things in there and she said, “I know what I‟m going to call you, I‟m going to
call you Pinky”, and I don‟t know where she got it. I said, “Where you getting that
Rita?” And she said, “oh, it just came into my head and that‟s the way it was with her.
She was a good catcher, oh boy, could that girl catch. She was smart, yeah.
Interviewer: “So, you‟re in the second season now, Battle Creek, you signed a
contract and you went to Battle Creek and you lived there?”
Battle Creek, yes I lived there.
Interviewer: “Where were you staying that time?”
I was staying with Maggie Russo and Josephine Hasham and we lived in a house with the
landlady and we had the upstairs to ourselves. That‟s where we lived and we didn‟t have
a car. I didn‟t have a car and neither did Maggie or Josephine. Rita Briggs use to pick us
up when it was time to go to the ballpark and that‟s how we went. 50:42
Interviewer: “What was a typical day like? You get up and get dressed, what was
the day like?”
Mostly every morning we had to practice and in the afternoon we would go home and
take it easy and about three o‟clock we had to eat before we went to the ballpark and we
had to be there at four o‟clock, get into our uniforms and start working out again to get
ready for the game. After the game was over you take a shower and go home, but first
you get something to eat. You get something to eat and you go home.
Interviewer: “Did you always know which team you were going to be playing?”
Yeah, we had a schedule.
11
�Interviewer: “Were there some teams that were a little more difficult to deal with
than others?”
Yeah, Fort Wayne was always a good team and Kalamazoo always had a good team too.
Interviewer: “Your second season you‟re no longer a rookie?”
Nope
Interviewer: “What position are you playing this time?”
Well, I was playing the pitching and I was playing the outfield. I did two positions.
Interviewer: “You did both.”
Either left field or right field when I wasn‟t pitching and sometimes I did the bull pen and
had to come in and relieve sometime. 51:53
Interviewer: “Any particular events happen in the second season that you want to
talk about?”
Let me see, no not too much.
Interviewer: “Just a regular season?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “So, now it‟s the third season, 1953 right?”
They moved us to Muskegon, Michigan and I lived with Maggie and Josephine again in a
nice house and we were within walking distance to the ballpark there, so that was nice
and we had a little restaurant to stop at to eat at after the game and before going home
and that was good too you know. We had it easy there, but Muskegon wasn‟t too good
for crowds you know. It was kind of down, so when that season was over me and
Marilyn Jones went to Fort Wayne, Indiana, which I was happy about because they were
the first place team. My roommate and Josephine went to Rockford. 52:57
12
�Interviewer: “You mentioned, just now, that the crowds in Muskegon were a lot
smaller.”
Yeah, they were a lot smaller.
Interviewer: “Did you have any idea, at that time, what your future as a baseball
player was going to be? Did you think you were going to keep playing—you‟re only
eighteen or nineteen years old by this time, and did you think you were going to be
playing into your twenties or did you already know that something was going wrong
that it wasn‟t going to last?”
Well, I was hoping it would last a long time, but I wasn‟t quite sure about it and when I
went to Fort Wayne, For Wayne always drew good because we had a good ball club
there, and I hit two home runs there. The first night I hit one and the next night a “grand
slammer”, and that was beautiful, and I had a big grin on my face there. 53:46
Interviewer: “But the last year though, the forth season, were there any indications
that things were going wrong?”
Well, they were talking about it, yeah, they were talking about it and they said that we
may not make it another year, so after our season was over, Bill Allington, he was my
manager then and he was a tough man to work for and I‟ll give you an example. I was
playing left field and someone yelled my name from out in the stands and I never
bothered looking before, but this time for some reason I did and I just turned my head and
all of a sudden I said ooh and I heard that bat you know and I said, “I better get this thing
or I‟m dead”. I had to make a shoestring catch out of it, came up with it, threw it in and
guess who‟s waiting for me when we got the third man out? He was waiting for me and
13
�he gave me hell you know and he said, “don‟t you do that again”. I didn‟t boy, I‟ll tall
you I didn‟t. 54:44
Interviewer: “The final season is the fourth season and you said there was talk
amongst the players that something might be going on?”
There were rumors that it was going to come to an end and Bill when it came to the
end—well, we were in the playoffs and we were in first place and we played against
Kalamazoo in the playoffs, but Kalamazoo beat us out. They kind of whipped me
because I use to beat Kalamazoo all the time, but this night they whipped me. I finally
got them out in this particular inning and Bill comes waiting for me and said, “What‟s the
matter with you? Didn‟t you get your rest today?” I said, “yes sir, I did”, and he said,
“What‟s the matter with you?” I said, “they‟re hitting bullets off of me. I don‟t know,
they just got me today”, and he said, “Can you catch?” I said, “no sir and I‟m not going
behind there”, and he said, “you‟re all done for the night, you go sit on the bench”. He
was a good manager though, he was tough, but he was good. 55:49
Interviewer: “That final season, you said you hit two home runs right?”
Yeah, yeah
Interviewer: “How did that happen and what was the first one?”
The first one? I don‟t know, the ball was right down the gut and I just grabbed it and I hit
it, but it was a line shot and I didn‟t think it made it over the fence and I stopped at
second and the Umpire motioned for me to keep on going and a big smile came on me
again and I want all the way around. The next night was a sweet one and I knew that
baby was gone because they were high and long and I ran those bases so nice and that
was a beauty.
14
�Interviewer: “Anybody on base?”
Yeah, the bases were loaded, yeah; the second one had the bases loaded. Bill said, “gee,
you got a little power”. When I was home and played with the boys, I use to hit a lot of
home runs, but this was a different story, there was more pressure you know. 56:47
Interviewer: “You‟re playing on several different teams, and how difficult was it to
transfer? You go from one team and now did you have a whole bunch of new girls
or did they come with you? Was it more difficult working in a new team?”
No, not really because you kind of get acquainted with everybody playing the teams
anyway. Whenever we had to change teams Maggie and Josephine were always with me
and we were roommates, so we just went along with it you know and a lot of the other
players we already knew too, so it was not difficult.
Interviewer: “During that period of time, you said that you wanted to continue
playing baseball, but did you actually think that this was what you were going to do
for most of your career or did you think you had to go to school or get a job? Were
you thinking about your future?” 57:48
Well, Fort Wayne, when we got done with the season, Bill decided that for one month we
go around and play against the men‟s teams, so we did and he picked a bunch of us
players to go around, and we did it for a month, and we did good, we beat a lot of the
guys, we beat them out. The last game we played it was my turn to pitch and what we
would do—me and my catcher would go sit with the guys and their catcher and pitcher
would go sit with the girls, and that „s how we did it. We were playing good and I was
beating my own girls and the seventh inning I started getting tired after playing the whole
season and this tour. I was getting tired, so he comes running out to me and he said,
15
�“What‟s the matter?” I said, “I‟m just getting a little bit tired, we played a whole season
you know. These two gals are pretty hard to get, but give me a chance and I‟ll try to get
them”, and I did, I got them.
58:53 I got them in a fly out you know and the next one I
had no problem with, and we get to the ninth inning and the girls had us by one run, I
think. We got some hits and we won the ball game and a guy came running to me and he
said it was the first game he won all season and he said, “Will you play for me next
year?” I said, “no I‟m going to play with the girls, I‟m sorry, but I would rather play with
my girls”, but of course we didn‟t have any more team. After the winter was over,
February my father died, this is when he died and in April I got a phone cal from Jeanne
Geissinger and she said, “Bill wants to know if you‟ll go around and play the girls against
the guys?” 59:52 They did that, I think, for four years, and I said, “I don‟t know if I
can, I just lost my father and I have to take care of my mom”, and I said, “let me think
about this and I‟ll call you tomorrow”, and she said, “ok”, and she was staying at Ma
Kelly‟s, everybody calls this lady Ma Kelly, and I said, I‟ll call you tomorrow afternoon”,
so I sat down that day thinking and thinking what I could do and I said, “no, I can‟t, I
can‟t do this, I have to say home”, so I called her up and I said, “I can‟t go, as much as I
want to, I cant‟ I got to take care of my mom”, so that was the end. 00:32
Interviewer: “Did you get a chance to play ball again after that?”
Yes, I coached CYL softball. The priest called me up and he said, “We‟re
going to start a CYL softball team and would you please coach?” I said, “I didn‟t think I
would be a very good coach, I don‟t like to lose”, and he said, “Well, give it a try, will
you please?” I said, “ok, I‟ll give it a try”, so I had these little kids you know and I had to
make up to them and I had to control myself to help them and everything else. We did
16
�pretty good except I was the only girl coach and there were all men coaches on these
other teams and they didn‟t want sliding in CYL you know, they didn‟t want the sliding.
The girls learned it in school, so we were playing this game and one of my girls slid into
third base and the coach on the other team, he started raving, “there‟s no sliding in CYL”.
1:40 I said, “I don‟t teach her to slide. I know we can‟t do it, but they learn it from high
school and it just came automatically”, so he started saying—I said, “you‟re being nasty
because I‟m a woman”, and he turned around and walked away. The Umpire said, “It‟s
ok, the girl learned it from school, from high school and she didn‟t do it on purpose”, so
anyway, we won the ball game and the guy apologized to me later.
Interviewer: “Good, good, now the priest you said, asked you and did he know you
played professional baseball?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Ok, sure, sure. What was the reaction when you got back from a
season? What was the reaction of your friends and neighbors?”
Well, I get off the bus from getting the train and then getting the bus to get home and I
got my bags and everybody‟s saying, “up, she‟s home, Pinky‟s home”. 2:42
Interviewer: „So, everyone else picked up on Pinky too? So, what was just amongst
the girls—?”
Yeah, once it started it caught on.
Interviewer: “My gosh, oh my gosh. The end of the league and you said you
became a coach afterwards; did you talk about your experiences? Did people know
that you were a baseball player ten years later, twenty years later? Did you spend a
lot of time talking about the fact that you played baseball?”
17
�The people at home knew because every spring I was gone to play ball and they would
ask me questions and this and that, and I would give them the answers you know.
Interviewer: “Some of the girls we talked to literally said after they stopped playing
they never talked about it and their kids didn‟t even know that they played
baseball.”
My father would talk and he would say that his daughter was a professional ball player
and this and that. He was proud, but I‟m so sorry he didn‟t get to see me play. 3:42
Interviewer: “When did you, let me put it this way, did you ever think at the time
that you were doing something extraordinary? People are telling you now that you
guys did this amazing thing, did you think of it way back then?”
No I didn‟t, I just went out because I loved the damn game you know. We played with
our hearts, we played hard and we were tired sometime, but we played with our hearts
and we went to win. Sometimes you lose naturally, you aren‟t always going to win, but
we had fun, we didn‟t make much money, but we had fun. It was not like these big
leaguers you know. I think that money is killing the game I think so. I think they love
the money more than the game. 4:36.
Interviewer: “When did you first hear about the movie, A League of Their Own?”
Oh, they let us know about it. They let us know about it, yeah.
Interviewer: “What was your reaction?”
I was happy, yes, I was happy and everybody gets to see it you know.
Interviewer: “So, you went to a premiere of it? Did you see it in a movie or you just
went to a movie theater and saw it?”
It was on television and everything you know.
18
�Interviewer: “You never saw it in a theater?”
No, no
Interviewer: “Oh my gosh.”
No, when it came on television I saw it you know.
Interviewer: “What was your reaction to the movie?”
Well, I didn‟t like the clubhouse thing you know because that wasn‟t true. The men
weren‟t in the clubhouse and Jimmy Foxx was never like that. He was a great man and a
gentleman all the way and that‟s the only thing I didn‟t like. Everything else was good
you know. 5:33
Interviewer: “What I heard from everyone else, and I felt this myself, it kind of
captured the spirit. It had some things they call Hollywood and what not, but
overall it was pretty accurate in terms of the spirit of it.”
Yeah, there‟s some of this make believe stuff, but when I heard that Madonna was going
to be in it I was she was going to kill it on us you know because you know how she is.
She‟s going to kill it, but Rosie O‟Donnell kept her in check and she‟s the only one who
knew how to play ball, Rosie, did you know that? Yeah, I got to know Rosie a little bit
when she wasn‟t too wild after while before she---you know a little bit.
Interviewer: “Did things change for you personally after the movie came out? I
mean, would people react to you different?”
Yeah, they want to touch you and everything. They like to touch you and they want to
talk to you and all that. 6:30 I like to talk to little kids and I like to help them.
Interviewer: “What—some of the girls I talked to said that in many ways the movie
kind of brought back the glamour and the fun of the game and a lot of them and not
19
�really forgotten that period, but they had not talked about it. Did the move have
that effect on you too, that other people somehow treated you differently?”
Yes they did, we were professionals, and they want to talk to you and ask you questions
and everything, oh yeah, and it was nice. It was nice to have people talk to you like that
you know. It made you feel good.
Interviewer: “Looking back on it now, what do you think that period of your life
was like for you. I know you did other thing and a lot of you have gone on to do
amazing things, so this was just one small part; it was four years of your life. Where
does that fit in terms of your life as you look back on it?” 7:35
I think it was the best years of my life; I really do, outside of having my daughter and
everything you know. Those were my best years; I loved it so much, and we had so
much fun. It was great and we made a lot of nice friends too. The fans were wonderful
and in Fort Wayne I use to have kids come to me all the time and it I had bullpen work
for relief, they would come down and sit on the bench with me, these little kids. If I had
a chance to give them a ball I would give them a ball or maybe if we would crack a bat
and the bat isn‟t too bad, I would say, “put a little screw in here and it will be good and
you can still use it you know. They would say, “oh boy Pinky that‟s good”, and I like to
make kids happy. 8:28
Interviewer: “I know at the time you are playing you‟re not thinking about these
sorts of things, but now, where do you think the league, in terms of the big picture of
baseball and America, where do you guys fit into all of this?”
Well, I wish we were up there a little bit more. I think the men took everything away
from us a little bit. It‟s only fight that the fans went back because those guys went to
20
�fight for our country. That‟s only right and that‟s how come we went down, but I wish
we could have stayed up, but it just didn‟t go that way and that‟s the way it went you
know. Ted Williams was my favorite player and I use to go watch him play all the time.
I wish I could have been like him though. 9:23
Interviewer: “You‟ve had a chance now, especially at reunions and you go to events
and what not, what kind of a message do you want for the young people that come
to you, what do you want to tell them about your experience as a ball player?”
Well, I tell them that I had a good life and I loved it very much, played my heart out, and
met a lot of beautiful, wonderful people and what more can you want you know, that‟s it.
These lovely little kids come up to you loving you, that makes me feel good.
Interviewer: “When did you first start coming to the reunions?”
This was my first one.
Interviewer: “After all you just said about how wonderful this is and this is your
first reunion?” 10:21
You know, I had a few injuries. I injured my legs a few times and sometimes I had
money problems and I couldn‟t afford it, so my daughter, she paid for all this.
Interviewer: “So this had got to be one of the great moments, huh? There are a lot
of amazing women out there.”
Joyce Westerman, you are going to have her tomorrow, and of course me and her were
buddies and I roomed with her. We lived the first year, with me and Maggie, and we
haven‟t seen each other in a long time and boy, we were hugging like crazy the first night
and we were crying and hugging and everything else and the girls said, “they‟re crying”,
and were taking pictures like crazy of us.
21
�Interviewer: “Well, let‟s hope you get a chance to come to other ones.”
“We‟ll be going to San Diego
Interviewer: Oh good, my mom lives in San Diego, so maybe I‟ll bring her to the
next reunion.”
Yeah, good, that‟s good
Interviewer: “That would be good. That would be really good and I want to thank
you very much. This had been a wonderful experience to sit down and talk to you.
This was delightful. 11:39
22
�23
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_NLeDuc
Title
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LeDuc, Noella (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
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LeDuc, Noella
Description
An account of the resource
Noella Le Duc was born in Graniteville, Massachusetts in 1933. She grew up playing baseball with the boys, and when she was sixteen, a friend of her mother's introduced her to one of the AAGPBL players, Rita Briggs, who arranged a tryout for her in 1951. She played in the AAGPBL from 1951 through 1954, first with Peoria and later with Muskegon and Fort Wayne. She was primarily an outfielder, but also tried her hand at pitching and catching.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Illinois
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-05
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6390b6ed5e3a255bb26e5a513cbd21ac.mp4
5dd06c9db3f1a577407316e5feb4a10f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b9207659543fdf5e5b7c0c57be308a3.pdf
21b331ebd729a85848593beffd549975
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Mary Moore
Length of Interview: (36:56)
Date of Interview: August 7, 2010 at the Reunion of the Professional Girls Baseball League
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Lindsey Thatcher, November 18, 2010
Interviewer: “Alright, today is August 7, 2010 we are at Detroit Michigan at the reunion of
the All American Professional Girls Baseball League and talking this morning with Mary
Moore of White Lake Michigan. The interviewer is John Smither of the Grand Valley State
University Veterans History Project. Now Mary what we are going to do here is basically
just follow your story. And we are going to begin at the beginning. So why don’t you tell us
where and when you were born?”
I was born in Detroit Michigan.
Interviewer: “In what year?”
1932. During tough times, the depression era.
Interviewer: “And what did your family do for a living in those days?”
Well my dad was a jewel die maker and well after when we moved out to Lincoln Park Michigan
when I was about 5 or 6 years old, that’s where I actually grew up and graduated, Lincoln Park
High and that was our main resident area. He worked for General Motors, Cadillac division, Ford
Street in Detroit.
(01:10)
Interviewer: “Now how did you get involved in sports initially?”
Well probably like most of the women, I mean well you know, I played out in the fields with the
boys Lincoln park you know, well it wasn’t very populated. There were a lot of fields out there
where we lived at that time. We were like the only house in fact; there was one other house on
the lot on one side of the street and maybe one or two on the other side. So there were a lot of
fields out there and we would take them and cut the weeds down and make our own ball field.
And of course if you get it to the white field we were out and we didn’t have enough players but
it was always something to go out to the field with the boys. I had an older brother that had a
paper route. Detroit News and it was a weekly paper. And so I would help him on his paper route
to earn money. So I was the one who always would come up with bats and balls and the
equipment. So if the boys wanted to play ball or any sport be it football, basketball, they had to
come get me first. So, so I was never left out.
(02:23)
�Interviewer: “Alright were there other girls that would play too, or was it just you?”
No there was hardly, I can’t even remember any girls in the neighborhood basically so, and if
there were they were down the street or quite a ways away, or they just weren’t interested. Most
of them weren’t anyway so.
Interviewer: “Now at your high school were there girls teams and girls sports?”
No, not heavily in high school back then. I graduated in January 1950 and in our senior year
(03:00) we were allowed to take one hour of gym. And then we had to share the basketball court
with the boys and we’d take half the court and they would take the other. But we had no
organized sports at all for the girls.
Interviewer: “So how did you wind up hooking up with the All Americans?”
Well like I said I had been playing ball with the boys there was that and always we had a Detroit
Tigers in Lake who played short stop for the Tigers oh back when he lived about 3 miles from us
and he would come out and play ball with us and he would pick the ball up and I would learn
how to judge fly balls and things like that. And basically teaching the guys but you know I was
watching and doing it too and he would take the students to the Tiger’s stadium to the ball park
and at that point I got a baseball and autographed a little autographed book like Hank Greenburg
(04:00), Dick Wakefield, George Kell, and all those guys back in the late 40’s. So I still have the
autograph book but I did have a fire in my place and I did lose the baseball. And so I mean, you
know I was a great sports fan and but it started in when I graduated from high school oh my high
school English teacher, Mrs. Nelson, put me in touch with another lady who had graduated. I
hadn’t heard anything about it, I mean it wasn’t widely known around you know, especially in
big cities. So she put me in touch with Doris Kneel who was already trying out. So we went
down to Crown Recreation in Detroit. There were a lot of girls from the Detroit Michigan area.
In fact Michigan has more (05:00) girls in the League than any other state. And so that’s where
they would go to practice in the winter time. So I went down there because I needed the practice.
From there one of the girl’s fathers was a scout. And Helen Filarski then took me in down to
South Bend with her for the tryout of the spring of 1950. Jobs were hard to find back then. You
know you graduate from high school and then there was really nothing. I mean I was willing to
sweep floors or do anything but there weren’t jobs out there, kind of like today. And so anyway
Helen took me to South Bend for tryouts. We were there for 2 weeks. And of course I hadn’t
really played anywhere for ball or anything (06:00) but I was you know, quite athletic. And so
after two weeks of spring training, of course they had a second baseman there, I can’t even
remember who it was now. But they sent me down to Chicago for 2 more weeks of training. And
there we had a lot of girls trying out. They picked 15 girls for the Springfield Sallies team and 15
girls for the Chicago Colleens team and…
Interviewer: “We’ll get back to that in just a moment I want to go a little bit back and talk
about the try outs and training. Were you, you went to South Bend. What was the set up
there? What were they trying to do to South Bend when you went there initially?”
�Just I guess, see if I they make the team or how good you were. I guess you know, they invite
people you know that maybe that [?] father might have saw playing ball and they said you know
we need a good player and they say go ahead go and try out you know.
(07:08)
Interviewer: “And what would they have you do when you were trying out?”
Well it’s kind of funny because all these Veterans down in Detroit in Rockville asked, what
position do you play? I said well any place, you know, you know they got, anyplace you want
me to I could play you know out in the scrub games you know I could be taught infield outfield
whatever, well you can’t tell them I can just play anywhere, so they wouldn’t think you were any
good. You got to tell them you play someplace. So they go over to all these Veterans, my friends
and so they say well third base that’s a really hot corner, I said well I don’t know about that.
Shortstop then you would really have to arm and move around; well I don’t know about that.
First base, well you really have to stretch and dig them out of the dirt, better not tell them there.
Outfield you really need a strong arm, and really you know move, well I don’t know about that.
Why don’t you tell them you play second base…so I did. I told them I played second base but I
hadn’t. So I get there and I watch you know, and I thought how hard can this be? Well it was a
lot harder I guess than I thought it was. But anyway I was out there and the manager says (08:30)
“How old are you?” and I said seventeen, “Well then act like it, don’t act like an old lady.
Move!” I thought ok. So but I must have done something fairly decent because like I said they
sent me on to Chicago for two more weeks to make me hit on a different team they didn’t need
me there in South Bend so.
Interviewer: “Now when you went to Chicago how many other women were trying out at
the same time as you were?”
Oh, probably about a hundred.
(09:00)
Interviewer: “And out of that hundred they were going to take…?”
Thirty, two teams. They were going to be a traveling team kind of like the farm hunt system team
and so we had fifteen each team. And we had to make our way on a bus and sat by the
chaperones and managers and so we toured all over the country you know, playing games. We
went to twenty one states and Canada in three months. And we played seventy seven games of
the ninety game schedule we got rained out the rest. And we played Yankee Stadium before a
Yankee game, we met Joe DiMaggio, Casey Stengel, Phil Rizzuto, Whitey Ford, and all those
guys were playing and of course if we had known that now, I mean we’re there to play, we’re in
our uniform. We had nothing to do to get autographs or having no idea how big (10:00) this
thing really was you know. So I mean, we just played our game and then you think about it now
and you think wow, you know. We played on Yankee Stadium. It was quite a thrill. We were
also playing in Washington D.C. Griffins Stadium and all along the way places. We would tour
so after the 1950 season and I got drafted by Battle Creek.
�Interviewer: “Let’s go back again into a little bit and let’s talk a bit more about that barn
storming season there. First of all explain again, you have there are two teams, and the two
teams, tell us who the two teams were?”
Springfield Sallies and Battlecreek Belles.
Interviewer: “Ok.”
Oh no, I’m sorry. Springfield Sallies and Chicago Colleens.
Interviewer: “Right, ok and you were with…?”
I was with Springfield.
(11:01)
Interviewer: “You were with the Sallies, ok.”
In fact my baseball card says Springfield Illinois, instead of Lincoln Park Michigan.
Interviewer: “Well, alright. How did they manage this physically, with moving you around
the country like this? So you’re riding around on a bus, you’ve got your chaperones your
manager with you and so forth, and then what do you do when you go from town to town?
What’s the routine?”
Well most of our games were at night, and so we would play a night game for two hours and
shower and get back on the bus and basically travel to the next town, maybe try to sleep on the
bus. And the day was ours if we didn’t want to try to sleep or catch up on your laundry, and do
something like that. But you know, you would have a lot of time. So when we were in New York
though we were right in the city (12:00) and we were able to go at night, and you know a couple
things like that basically traveling at night, and they were small towns so they didn’t have many
entertainments or anything like that. But most of us were quite young so we really weren’t into
going out or anything like that. We had a, we had to be at the ball park for two or three hours
before the game for the warm-up. You play a 9 inning game and you get done and you are a little
tired. So then we get back on the bus and travel to the next town.
Interviewer: “And did they have any particular rules or regulations regarding your
conduct or your dress or anything else like that?”
Well that was strictly enforced. We could not wear blue jeans, shorts, slacks, or anything out in
public. You had to be in a skirt (13:00) and a dress. If we were on the bus in the middle of the
night and we stopped at a rest area, we could get off, nobody there, but you aren’t allowed off the
bus unless you got a skirt on or a dress so we used wrap around skirts so you just had to hurry up
and put that on then you could get off the bus. They had strictly enforced, well all the rules were
enforced. Like we had bed check every night, if you were caught out after bed check well you
would be fined or sent home. This one girl she didn’t go out after bed check, she went to the
vending machine, and she got caught and she got fined and it was paid. All of that was pretty big
money back then. Well they could’ve sent her home, and if she disobeyed really bad they could
�be sent you home because along the way on this tour (14:00) we were kind of on a farm system
there were try outs at these towns. Now if they found someone that they was doing better than
you, who you got to go home and pick up this other player. So we didn’t want to do anything to
be sent home so we obeyed them. And you know things were different back then anyway. I mean
discipline was pretty much normal for most families. You know, times have changed a lot now
and things have got a lot more lax and federal government won’t let teachers discipline the
students and just all kinds of things that have changed so I mean you know it wasn’t even hard
for us because we were brought up that way.
Interviewer: “Ok, now at this point did they make any effort to teach people how to dress
or do things with their hair and make-up and stuff or was that long gone by then?”
That was gone by the time we started, but we did know the rules and stuff (15:00). You didn’t
disobey that, if you did it would be bye.
Interviewer: “Ok, what as you were touring around these different places, what kind of
response did you get from fans? Did you draw big crowds?”
Oh yeah, we kept up a good attendance. We had a PR man and I’ll give his first name Murray.
He would go he had he would go to these towns and he had newspaper articles and every time
we would get into, we would take turns of being on the radio broadcasts because there was no
TV wasn’t anywheres around yet or it was just starting. So they had good press, and also during
this firestorm tour half the proceeds would go to a local charity at that time. So you know, people
were very supportive, it was something new and different. So they were coming out, because like
I said with gas rationing you can’t go too far (16:02). And so depending on what town it was,
how many people, sometimes two, three thousand sometimes maybe less. But we had fans and
they were very appreciative of grand ball we played.
Interviewer: “And what about when you played in Washington or New York Stadiums?
Was it, before a game; was there a crowd there already?
Yeah there was quite a few yeah, that was a big deal. Yeah that was before the Yankee games
there was a lot of people coming in. I don’t know if it was if they knew about the game. I’m sure
they must have but it was a lot of people.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you kind of go and you do that for three months. With fifteen
players on the team you are playing most of the games right?”
Oh yeah, about every game.
Interviewer: “Alright, how did you turn out as a second baseman?”
(16:59)
I guess very decent. I was involved in a lot of double plays and the first year I led my team in
almost every category, hits, runs, RBIs [?], home bases. I was involved in a triple play and I got
it unusually, there was no force outs, they were all tag players. And there was two girls on, the
�first and second a girl would bat hit the ball out to the outfield, a base hit, the girl on second
tried to score, well they threw the ball on then and run her down and tag her out. Well meanwhile
the girl on first rounded second going on towards third. Well when they got the other girl tagged
out they started to run her back and the girl that hit the ball she was heading towards second so I
was standing on second as they both came to second I just pop pop and one side and the other
and they were all out. So…
(18:01)
Interviewer: “Alright, well that’s pretty good. Ok, so if you were leading your team and
hitting double bases, were you stealing bases yourself?”
Oh yeah, yeah I had quite a few stolen bases.
Interviewer: “Ok, had you known anything about base stealing before you had joined the
league?”
No, not really. Just watching the major leagues and stuff like that so…
Interviewer: “Ok, were there particular tricks to it that you could use or could you read
certain pitchers or…?”
Well yeah. It depended on who was pitching, how slow they were, or what their rules were you
know…
Interviewer: “How many pitchers would a barnstorming team have?”
Let’s see, maybe about six I guess. I don’t know.
Interviewer: “Ok, so if you are always playing the same team than you probably learned
those pitchers pretty well?”
(18:56)
Well yeah, we had bets back and forth. If I get ahead of you tonight, you owe me a milkshake.
You strike me out, ok I’ll owe you one.
Interviewer: “Alright, of the people you were traveling around with are there some they
you became particularly good friends with, or just stand out in your mind as being really
distinctive characters or really good players?”
Yeah there was, there was several. There was a lot of them that were international, we had
Cubans, we had a few from Canada, and all over the states so. But we had a lot of good players,
too many to mention.
Interviewer: “Ok. Alright, so you get through that first season. What happens when that
season comes to an end?”
�Well you go home and you look for a job for the season, which again wasn’t really easy to find
but I had a high school girlfriend that was working in a small (20:00) automobile shop so they
happened to need some work so I got a job there, I sort of wish I hadn’t but it was work you
know. And, but towards the 1951 season started, January 30, 1951 I had a puncture accident. I
kind of messed my hand up a little bit, making Packard rings. You dart on and I kind of just
jerked it back at me and I got in the way and it got all my fingers. I didn’t get them all but it
messed up the others too. So that was in January and I did go to spring training in ’51. Which
they ended up not taking me, they didn’t want to be responsible. You can’t reach the ball with
your glove you kind of automatically reach with your bare hand (21:00) and they were afraid that
if I line drived or something like that that I would get my hand torn open again, it was still pretty
tender. I went to therapy like 3, 4 times a week just to be able to go to spring training. The doctor
said that most people would still be kind of carrying their hand in a sling, and I said, well I have
to play ball. But any way they did call me up towards the end of the season. They had other
injuries and of course my hand was a little better. So I went back and played a few games in ’51.
Interviewer: “And who did you play for?”
Battle Creek. Battle Creek drafted me after the 1950 season. I played second base there also. So
anyway that as in ’52, after leaving my team in 1950 it’s a little bit more difficult now and the
ball, to throw the ball and to grip a bat when some of the muscles don’t work. So I wasn’t feeling
as well, but I did go back in ’52. I played. Two weeks before the end of the season I was sliding
into second, Fort Wayne, twisted my ankle and Joe Fox [?] my manager carried me off the field.
So I was done for the ’52 season. So in ’53 when I got the call back I just didn’t go back. I got
another job. So then I was disappointed in myself because I knew how well I played the first year
and now I’m not batting any good, I guess fielding was ok but bat hand was suffering, and I
figured that really I was just keeping somebody else from playing and they should have a chance
(23:00) and of course not knowing it was the end of 1954 anyway it was the end of the season.
So after that you’re supposed to sit out five years before you go back to amateur softball after
playing in the professionals. But because of my injury one of the softball teams got my reinstated
after two years so I was able to go back and play fast pitch in softball.
Interviewer: “Did you go back to Lincoln Park for that or did you go somewhere else?”
Well Lincoln Park for, well you know I went back home and lived for a while, but I played all
over Michigan practically. Over eight or ten different teams throughout the year so we won a
state class A championship one year, and class B one year, class C. So then I played softball,
now softball I played whatever position, whatever they wanted, catching or outfield or infield.
Wherever they gave me I would play so.
(24:09)
Interviewer: “Now when you were playing softball on these teams, did people know that
you had played professional baseball?”
Probably not. I mean you know it wasn’t a well known thing. Even at work I didn’t really tell
them that I had played ball, that’s not true everybody played ball. So when the movie came out
�they asked why didn’t you tell us? I says because I did tell you, you just weren’t listening. But
that was my quite experience.
Interviewer: “Now after you left the league, did you stay in touch with any of the players or
any of the friends you had made?”
Oh yeah, yeah, I had a real good friend Jo (Joanne) McComb from Pennsylvania. And we visited
back in forth (25:00) for oh years. You know I would go there and she would come to my house
and meet my folks and meet her folks, stay in touch, and stay in touch with a lot of the others.
But not quite as close as that.
Interviewer: “Now as the League’s, the former players began to get there together and
create a players association, this kind of stuff before the Penny Marshall movie came out,
were you connected with that? Were you involved in any reunions or anything like that?”
Oh yeah, there was you know the first one. There was probably maybe two that I’ve might’ve
missed all through the years and that was probably because I was taking care of my father, so but
like I said all but probably two.
Interviewer: “And did you, were you involved with any of the things that are around,
connected with the movie?”
(25:57)
Yeah we went to Smokey Illinois for 1991 for try outs about sixty some were there and it was
about forty three, forty five went out of Cooperstown for the filming of the movie and so I was
there. We had a fan for the other movie, we’d stop and take a picture and walk in the hall of
fame. To give credit when we were at our reunion game I was the one that slid it home. Shirley
Burkovich was trying to tag me out but I was safe and she was a little mad but then I was playing
left field at one point and I had to help out on a rundown play between second and third, they
didn’t throw me the ball but I was running back and forth and when they zoomed on the bench I
was the first one that they zoomed in on and hand out players. We were there in Cooperstown for
eleven days for that five minutes at the end. So we know and appreciate why movies cost so
much putting us all up and everything like that, for that five minutes.
(27:10)
Interviewer: “Ok, you mentioned going to Smokey for try outs. Now you were already a
player, who was trying out there?”
Well, they wanted someone that was active enough and in good enough health to be able to do
some of these things and we were kind of like helping the actresses you know showing them
trying to show them how to throw the ball, how to catch the ball, throw it and things like that. So
when they said they didn’t want somebody they couldn’t move them around.
Interviewer: “And how did that go? How well did the actresses learn the job?”
�Well some of them, pretty well. I mean a couple of them were already pretty athletic. Betty and
Rosy O’Donnell (28:01). Madonna, she needed a little more work and some of the others. She
had her little dance steps kind of tone and all but they said she was one of the hardest working
ones and she got banged up and got hit the head with the ball, she was batting and different
things like that. And so she, I think, personal opinion as long as she wasn’t the star in the movie
she was ok. And we were a little apprehensive when we found out she was going to be in the
movie and Penny Marshall assured us that she would do good and it would be ok. Debra Winger
was actually supposed to play the part of Geena Davis and we don’t know why Debra Winger
backed out. We heard rumors that it was because Madonna was going to be in it. But you know
that was just a rumor, who knows? Could have been just a conflict with her schedule, it was a
great movie (29:04).
Interviewer: “Were you happy how the movie came out?”
Yeah I figured it was probably about 85% accurate. There was you know some Hollywood in
there you know, we certainly didn’t treat the chaperones like that poor lady and managers didn’t
come drunk or you know into the dressing room unless everyone was fully dressed and there
were allowed to come in or we would go out there so, but that was they had to make it funny and
that it was. But Penny Marshall, she was great and so were the actresses. Some of them actually
come to our reunions out there in California. There were about five of them last night we were
out in California so it’s really, it’s really nice.
Interviewer: “Kind of an unusual thing for a movie. Most movies don’t have that, quite
that amount of standing power or effect on things.”
(30:03)
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Now also, as you started to go into the reunions you got involved in actually
recording short interviews with the other players. Tell me a little bit about that.”
Well I always had my camera with me and I snapped pictures so the association asked if I would
be willing to I guess the board had talked about you know to start to preserve history. And they
asked me if I could do a few interviews and I was like “Yeah I always have my camera with
me”. So I started doing about 5 to 8 interview of all the ladies, and I’ve got about 184 of them
done now. They are about 5 to 8 minutes kind of, you know not as lengthy as we are doing here
but about how we got started, who they played for, their managers, the chaperones, and kind of
what they’ve done since and things like that. The short version maybe of the what’s going on
now.
(31:07)
Interviewer: “Sure. But it’s also very valuable because you got started a lot earlier before
we or other people did, so you’ve got stories of people that aren’t recorded anywhere else.”
Yeah because a lot of them are gone now. I do have short interviews and sorts. 31:22
�Interviewer: “And as we move forward with this project we will track down physically
where they are located and that information will go up on our website and so our project
here, but basically so we’ll make sure that people if they find us can also locate where those
are because they are going want to see as much as they can certainly. So alright…
Well if they can’t, I mean I’ve got copies of them. Of course they are on VHS and I’m not sure,
the longer I’m there they will deteriorate but…
Interviewer: “We’ll make sure that all that is digitized by somebody so we’ll still have it
certainly. Now as you look over your time while you were actually playing what do you
think the effect of that experience was on you? What did you take out of it or learn from it
they stayed with you?”
(32:07)
Well a lot of it would be like friendships I made. And you know it taught you to not be not be
afraid to be out in public, playing in front of 2,000 people who aren’t bashful and people. Of
course the discipline was always there but that always helps too. And just…almost everything
you know. Without that I don’t know where half of us would have been. It gave us the
opportunity to be able to go on to school, a lot of them did. I never did, my parents couldn’t
afford it so I wasn’t able to attend or continue but there are others that really had beautiful
opportunities to be doctors and teachers. It was a wonderful experience and you can’t even put
into words.
(33:09)
Interviewer: “What did you end up doing? Did you have a particular career? Or did you
just do different jobs?”
Well I worked at the Michigan Bell for 35 years. I was central office supervisor. And that was
inside the central office where the wiring and everything, way back before all this technology.
Ladders about two stories high and we would be running wires about a block long and dragging
them inside, there was a guy connecting them outside people’s houses soldering and having a
tool pouch on I was the supervisor of the ladies who did that so…
Interviewer: “Did it help you just to go out there and be a supervisor having worked with a
lot of people?”
Yeah I think so yeah. Just being out there I mean being on a ball field on a base is kind of like
directing traffic half the time you know and you just kind of take charge a little bit you know, I
mean play towards the outfield, you call a play and tell them where to throw the ball and this and
that, you are just kind of out there taking charge. Yeah so I believed that helped a lot.
(34:22)
Interviewer: “Alright, now you played a lot of softball. Did you do any coaching at any
time?”
�Yeah I did I coached a couple times the Wyandottes, some younger girls. And I coached one of
our teams that had a well class C I think championship and after that I kind just played so…
Interviewer: “Alright, and did you kind of follow the growth of women’s sports? Title IX?
Just adding more teams and things in the ’70’s and ‘80’s?”
(34:58)
Yeah I did quite a bit. In fact I played been playing slow pitch up until this year up in Warfield. I
was their pitcher and I kept telling my young kids as long as I can catch it or dodge it, I’ll play it.
But this year I was so busy with our reunion and fundraising and going to meetings and this and
that of course I still bowl and golf, I just really didn’t have time to play ball this year so. The
first year I haven’t played.
Interviewer: “Alright, now back to when you were actually playing. Did you think of the
league being this pioneering or significant or was it just playing ball?”
You know, it was just playing ball at first but I mean when everything else comes out the movie
and everything people keep telling you, you know thank you for this and that you know, then it
kind of registers. But originally I was doing what I loved to do (36:00) and you were getting
paid for it like a job so that didn’t really register until things just kept getting bigger and bigger
and getting fan mail from all over the country, kids and not just kids adults you know. Veterans
and stuff like that write wanting autographs, it’s just…it’s just awesome, it’s amazing. It just
blows my mind that people are still so interested in wanting all this stuff, our autographs and
pictures I just think it’s great. I just hope it never dies.
Interviewer: “Well we are doing our best to make sure that it doesn’t. Alright, you actually
got a good story and have done a good job telling it to us. Thanks for coming in and talking
to us today.”
Thank you. 36:47
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_MMoore0575BB
Title
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Moore, Mary (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
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Moore, Mary
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Moore was born in 1932 and grew up outside of Detroit, Michigan. She played ball with the boys in vacant lots in her neighborhood growing up, and met some of the Detroit Tiger players who lived in the area. She was recruited into the AAGPBL in 1950, and played second base that season for the Springfield Sallies barnstorming team. Their season included games played at Griffith Stadium in Washington, D.C., and at Yankee Stadium. She was drafted by the Battle Creek Belles for the 1951 season, but an offseason injury kept her from playing that year. She returned to the league in 1952, only to have another injury cut short her playing career. After baseball, she worked for Michigan Bell for 35 years and continued to play and coach softball. When the league began holding reunions, she recorded short video interviews with 184 former players, coaches and chaperones, which are now archived with the league's collection in South Bend, Indiana.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/41d087b9127acdcb485509201188988e.mp4
fed9d551737081ab7fe135202a35fe0a
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/04969cfe6d881664277b8640c995c541.pdf
ebbab5520f98cfdacb2f9e24102d7444
PDF Text
Text
1
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veteran’s History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Mary Froning
Length of Interview: (43:24)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Lindsey Thatcher, April 14, 2011
Interviewer: “Okay, let’s begin with your full name and where and when were you born?”
My full name is Mary Froning O’Meara. I was born in Minster, Ohio 8/26/1934.
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like? What was the family situation?”
I lived with my mother and father in this small town in Minster, Ohio. It was an all German
community and I went to an elementary school and high school there. I lived across the street.
Actually the whole town is Catholic and a big church down the block from myself. In my early
childhood, I have also a twin sister, so my twin sister and I went to (01:00)Minster grade school
and Minster High School. The eighth grade through grade school and four years at the high
school.
Interviewer: “Now, were there any organized sports for girls at the Catholic school?”
Actually it isn’t a Catholic school.
Interviewer: “Okay.”
It was run by the state. We had the only school in the state of Ohio that was run by the state of
Ohio. We had nuns, we had priests and instead of saying religion they called it ethics in school.
But, anyhow, back to your other question is, we had the CYO organization, which was the
Catholic Youth Organization. In which I participated in when I was in the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th and
through high school and that was the only sport I could play.
(2:02)
Interviewer: “What was the sport?”
It was softball. So I played that, the first coach I had was a priest, and from then on it was
different coaches.
Interviewer: “Now did you play with your sister also, play ball?”
Yes, she also played. Martha played second base and I was short stop.
�2
Interviewer: “Is this water for…”
No, I’m okay. I’m fine.
Interviewer: “The, okay, I went to Catholic school with the real uniforms and the white
socks and the little patch and the whole bit, you didn’t have to go through that, huh?”
No.
Interviewer: “The softball you played was part of the school curriculum?”
No, this was different, it was a club sport. You didn’t have to pay to get in. You just tried out and
make the team (03:00). It was just something for the girls to do. I loved softball, so I tried out
for it and made it when I was in the fifth grade.
Interviewer: “Wow! So each year, each school year, where would the baseball played
during that period of time? During the summers only?”
What do you mean, the baseball? Can I have some water?
Interviewer: “Sure, Tom, can we have….here is the water.”
Okay…
Interviewer: “Alright, Tom? Playing during the summer for 5th grade, 6th grade, all the
way through every single summer through…”
Except when I was scouted to play in my junior year.
Interviewer: “Wait a minute, I don’t want to get there quite yet. What I am trying to get
across, what I want to get across, is that when you are playing that regularly, especially as a
young person, you are going to get better. The more you play, you’re going to get better
(04:00). So, was there a lot of competition between you and your sister about?”
No, Martha and I, I mean it was good practice, because we could go home and throw the ball.
Actually, when I was playing probably in the 8th or 9th grade, I knew I was better than practically
anybody else. So I could run fast, I could throw, I had a good arm, I could hit. And so when we
played other teams, when I came up to bat and I could make home runs and outrun them. And
my sister Martha and I would make double plays, so that helped us. I had my friend Kay
Horsema in left field and she played at that point.
Interviewer: “Were your parents supportive of this?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “I was going to say the equipment…”
�3
They would come watch us play. I had two older brothers, I should say one older and one
younger than me. (04:58) As for as playing sports, I loved it; I mean it, I could probably have
been on the boy’s baseball team in high school. Being a girl, there was no way to do it. So
instead of that I became a cheerleader. And that’s what we could do; we could be a cheerleader
for basketball and football.
Interviewer: “Now, had you heard about the women’s professional, Professional All
American Girls Baseball Team, when you were in school?”
No.
Interviewer: “Okay.”
If we are going to get when I was recruited, I was a junior in high school. I was playing on a
Sunday afternoon, softball. And, apparently in South Bend, they do have a Board of Directors.
So one of the board of director’s mother lives in Minster, Ohio, he was coming by apparently
(06:00), and a week later, he sent me a contract. My dad and I looked at it, my mother looked at
it and he said it’s not softball, this is baseball. And I thought it is in South Bend, Indiana. I had
never been there and I should say the other team that was there was in Fort Wayne which is only
seventy miles away. I never heard of them, I never did. Nobody wrote it in the paper, what small
town that we had. The Dayton Daily News did not pick it up. So in so far as knowing what to do,
they sent me the contract. I looked at it and said I will certainly try out. That is in 1951, this was
in March. I went in to Spring Training in May in South Bend. There must have been probably, I
would say, about a hundred trying out (06:59), there were four positions. Being rookies and with
the manager which was Karl Winsch to play ball.
Interviewer: “Now, how did you get there?”
By bus, my first Greyhound bus ride, that was wonderful. I went from Salina to South Bend,
Indiana.
Interviewer: “You were sixteen?”
I was sixteen years old.
Interviewer: “How was that trip, what were you thinking about?”
Nothing, you know, here I am on the bus going to play baseball. That’s all I could think about,
meeting different people, and the person actually the board of directors, the gentleman that did it.
I stayed with him for the first couple of days. And the other hard part was getting on a trolley to
go to the Palin Park, is where we played. That was hard. Where I was coming from you were in a
car or you were walking, or riding a bike, right? That was enjoyable too. Because South Bend
was quite large at the time it had a hundred and fifty thousand people and you’re looking at my
home town which had 1,500.
�4
(08:18)
Interviewer: “Now, where was your twin sister in all this?”
My twin sister was at home, she also tried out, but when the tryouts came, she did not want to
play ball. She wanted to become a nurse, so she went home and did that. She did become a nurse.
Interviewer: “Okay, so she did.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “But you had the opportunity- you wanted to play?”
I wanted to play.
Interviewer: “But, the thing I am a little confused about is the, you had been playing
softball since fifth grade…”
Yes.
Interviewer: “And now you are being asked to, by this time the league had hardball.
Right?”
Oh, yes.
Interviewer: “Oh, Yeah.”
By the time, it came in 1951, it was overhand pitching and the size of the ball was ten inches and
the pitching mound was fifty-five feet and the bases were, I think at that point seventy or longer
(9:17). And so this was the first time in my entire life, so what I did first was I had a baseball
from my brother and I started throwing the baseball and that helped. So when I got there before
the try outs I knew how to hit, I knew how to throw and we would hit, Karl the manger, would
hit the flies to us in the outfield. They called me, well they really called me flash, fearless
running over fences and stuff. So I tried out in South Bend and there were quite a few people
there. They took four, and I was one of the four, (10:01) so. One of the high points of my life;
here I am I am going to be really playing I get a uniform that is a skirt, I can slide, a uniform
that’s a skirt which I normally had pants on before. I looked at it and I said “Gosh, look at that
uniform, it looks wonderful!” It did. We had socks and stirrups and baseball caps.
Interviewer: “All of the girls that I have talked to about the uniform said that they had to
adjust it in some way; did you have to do that with yours?”
Yes, well actually when I came there you would try one on and they also had a seamstress, so if
it was too long you know, which I wanted a mini skirt like anyhow…she would adjust it to your
size. So we had two uniforms, we had one on (11:00) the road and one at home. So they would
�5
have them dry cleaned after you left to go on a road trip and when you came home it was waiting
for you.
Interviewer: “Now you move, during the season you moved to South Bend?”
Oh, yes.
Interviewer: “Where did you stay?”
I stayed, all of us stayed with people in homes. I was in a house with other rookies. In fact Lois
Youngen, Dolly Vanderlip, and another girl I can’t remember her name. We stayed with a lady
by the name of Mrs. Kelly. So there is where we stayed and after we played ball we came back
and we stayed with her and then we went on the road and when we came back we would stay
with her. She was paid, I don’t think we paid her, I think the League (12:00) or I think we did
pay her.
Interviewer: “So it was rent. You were basically renting a room in the, yeah. So how was
the first season rookie?”
The first season I sat on the bench. My manager Karl said: “Mary, I want you to learn this
game”. In 1951 the South Bend Blue Sox won the world series so there was no way, every
position was taken care of and there was no way that I could get out there unless somebody
broke a leg. But what they did do was to, I would pitch one inning. So I would hit and I would go
to first base on my way out, so that’s okay because I was fast. I also sat on the bench and he said
“I want you to watch what you do and what signs I give you so that when you are up to bat you
know what it is”. The other thing I would do, which I don’t know (13:00), is I would sit on the
bench and they did smoke, I would hold their cigarettes when they were on the field and they
would come back and they would have it. It was very interesting the first year, it was hard. It was
so different from softball because you had longer bases and actually you could steal without
having to worry about the pitch going over home plate and stuff so that was my first year
experience.
Interviewer: “Now once you had your first season, did you return back home?”
I returned back to Minster. I finished my senior year at Minster, Ohio and I graduated and at that
point they let us know when to come for spring training. So that was, we played 112 games a
year so spring training was at, sort of like at the end of April. I graduated May 22 (14:00), I went
back for graduation and then I continued on with the team in 1952.
Interviewer: “Now, when you got back from your first season and you were back in school
now, was anybody talking to you about the fact that you played professional baseball?”
No because they had no idea what I was doing, no idea. Even my, my mother and father used to
come to Ft. Wayne to watch me play, in 1952. Because that was where we did play and it was
�6
only 7 miles away so they saw me play. My brother came with his wife and they saw me and
Martha did too, my sister. But as far as people in Minster knowing that I was a professional
baseball player and that I was getting paid, not very much but it was enjoyable. They had no
idea. What is (15:00)_ summer and do? I played and was a professional baseball player. And
that’s what I am. Everyone in South Bend knew about the girls, everybody in Ft. Wayne knew
who the girls were. Everybody in Michigan knew about the girls: Grand Rapids, Muskegon,
Battle Creek they all knew who we were, Racine, the other teams. Everybody in the city knew.
Because what they did they had post scores, they would be on radio in South Bend, they would
be on the radio and they would interview you. And I had my photograph taken and they would
put the photograph in the store downtown in South Bend and they would have the schedule on
us, and people would come out and watch the South Bend Blue Sox play. And that was how
there was advertising.
Interviewer: “How was your second season?”
Second season, okay. That would 1953. I got better. I hit home runs inside the park homeruns.
Interviewer: “But the team is giving you a chance to play now?”
Oh, yes. Because a lot of them at that point, a lot of ones that had played all along…
Interviewer: “The veterans?”
Yes the veterans. They went off to (16:30) school to further their educations, you know teachers.
Or they went back to work, or…and I was only 17, I mean I didn’t have a job I wanted to play
ball.
Interviewer: “So now you have gone from being rookie, into playing in the regular lineup?”
Yes, and I did this for 3 years.
Interviewer: “Now was there any sense, I realize you were 17 or 18 years old, but was
there any sense that this was going to be your career, baseball?”
I never really thought about it. The thing that I thought about was “Here I am, playing baseball. I
do get money to play”. As far as the going back to school, it never entered my mind. Because
every, after the season was over I would work I stayed in Kalamazoo one season and worked,
and another season I stayed in Rockford. So every season after our season I did work.
Interviewer: “Now your sister already knew what she wanted to do?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “She wanted to be a nurse?”
�7
Yes, a nurse.
Interviewer: “Now was there any discussion either with your sister or your parents about
what you were going to do? Besides play baseball.”
No, I mean there wasn’t (18:00) very many opportunities in 1952 when you graduated to do as
far as, you could get married, you could go to school to become a nurse, you could work in the
factory, or you could further your education and become a teacher. Now those were your
choices. So at that point I said “I don’t want any of those choices, that’s not me”. So I just kept
playing ball and then when I was in, actually in Rockford working there. My friend who flew for
TWA, called me and she said “Mary, I want you to come and I want you to interview with 3
different airlines, I would like for you, if you would like to do this, come up to Chicago and
interview”. So at that point afterwards I think it was 56? No 55 and 56 that’s when I went. I was
interviewed with the airlines was something else. I go up there I was to be at a certain time in
Chicago. At midnight all the interviews took place with the airlines (19:30). My first one was
with TWA, my second one was with United and the third was with Parody airlines. So I had a
certain time I was interviewing with this young man, and he was asking me what I did before I
came and what my education was and why I am here and all of that. So I started to tell him about
my career before I came and I told him I played professional baseball and he stopped right in his
tracks. He had no idea that even in Chicago; we weren’t written up in the paper in Chicago that I
had played professional baseball. And at that point we had no baseball cards so I couldn’t prove
him that I had played. So he said that’s really nice. So he said “I’m going to set you up with
another interview and I want you to come back, but first of all I want you to go to charm school”.
So I had to go to charm school for a week, for the make-up and for the walking and everything to
be in the airlines. So I did that for a week, I came back and also what helps too, is that you are
interviewed by different people, not the same person (21:00). So I was interviewed by a different
person and I made it.
Interviewer: “I know that when you started out your first year, the charm school for the
League had already stopped right? So you had didn’t have any of that kind of…?”
No we had none of that. Charm school I think was ’43 when we first started. We had one of the
ladies to look like ladies, no short haircuts you always had to wear lipstick, you always had to be,
you couldn’t smoke you always had to wear dresses, no slacks no jeans. You had to set yourself
as elegant.
Interviewer: “In your first couple of seasons, how were the fans?”
The fans were great. Actually in South Bend I would say there may be about 2 or 3,000 people
who would come. The majority were night games. And the fans all the ladies wore dresses all the
men had suits on all the men had hats on, nobody ever had shorts on they were always dressed
like men and women.
�8
Interviewer: “The, you said that you had sometimes 2 or 3,000 people show up?”
Yes we did, and these were night games. You always started at 7 or 7:30. We always had
programs you could buy. The programs were 25 cents, no programs were 10 cents. To get in was
25 cents. So it was very, people loved us they were very (23:00) came out, everybody was happy
to see us play and would ask for our autograph. And after we played we all went out for dinner.
Or if we had a road trip after we would eat and then get on the bus for the longest trip on the bus
was from South Bend to Rockford that was a long one. We would arrive in Rockford in the early
morning. People were walking going to work. And Karl would, we were all on the bus and Karl
would open the door up and say “Come on out and watch us beat the Peaches”. And they would
laugh and people would say “Oh no you’re not”. So that’s how we got fans too. But everybody
loved the Peaches so they had a big following that really nice for them, same as in Kalamazoo.
They also had a big draw they had a brand new stadium and ball park to play in.
Interviewer: “What were the road trips like?”
Road trips were fun I mean you would be tired from playing the game, 9 innings of ball and then
you would get on and you had to put your dress on and your skirt on and sit there and you got
some sleep but not a lot, so actually if you did arrive (24:30) say in Rockford, you would go to
the hotel and you would nap for awhile and then you would get up. A lot of it was like “Where
am I today?” and then we would be like, “Oh, we’re in Rockford”. We’d get up and we had
practice, and if we did lose games we had practice every day after that. We would have, Karl, we
would have meetings in the morning Karl would give us our signs for the game for that night I
should say.
Interviewer: “By signs you mean the special stuff they would do with you?”
Yes, the special stuff that would they said, right. Actually if you stepped out the box you would
look at him, I was very good at bunting. I could easily be the first or second to enter and I had
lots of people enter behind me, and I loved to steal bases.
Interviewer: “I only played Little League but my claim to fame is that I hit a homerun on
a bunt.”
On a bunt? When you were 5 years…
Interviewer: “The other team was over throwing and everything. I didn’t know what I was
doing I was just, I was a fairly decent pitcher but I couldn’t hit for anything.”
That was a lot of people’s problems. You could catch, you could run: hitting takes an eye. We
had several, several women (26:00) who were just very good hitters, excellent.
Interviewer: “So as of the third year, the fourth year were the fans, were you still getting
more people? Because I’ve heard from some that there were less people.
�9
Yeah, actually it dwindled. Remember the war was over in ’45. All the baseball players, the
Major League baseball players came back. So they drew more in Chicago and they drew more in
where they had the major leagues more. These teams had started probably about 1952. I
remember we had one set in Minster Ohio and everybody went over to witness it, Howdy Doody
was on. so the TV came in ’52. In ’53 there was still a lot of people enjoying our League because
it was still a League. In ’54 it started to dwindle, but not too many people, by not too many
people I mean we still had 5 or 600 people and that was when we the League started to disband.
It had gone 12 years, there was no more new interest.
Interviewer: “Now what was there discussion amongst you about what is going to happen
next year (27:30)? Are we going to be working anymore?”
No, actually when I left, I received a letter in 1954…’55 I should say, that the League was
disbanding and there would be no more professional baseball.
Interviewer: “What was your reaction to that?”
I was sad. It was something I had done over the summers. Why quit now? That was, there was no
more baseball. So I decided to pursue my other life.
Interviewer: “Now you then got into the airlines, you have continued on. Now, did you
ever talk about the fact that you were a baseball player when you were employed by the
airlines?”
No, I did not. Because at that point nobody knew it, I could say “Yes, I played professional
baseball”; well I proved it one time we were on a flight going from Chicago to Syracuse and we
actually got off the flight, I remember we had 108 inches of snow, and the snow banks were
umpteen feet up in the air as we came in (29:00). Now I’m flying on a Conveyer that seats 40
people, we have 1 pilot, and we have no flight engineers, so when we go down everybody has
their own individual room. So the guy the pilot thought that he would be pretty smart and he was
going to throw us a snowball. Well he did, that was completely wrong. Because I picked up one,
and he never knew what hit him. That was the, at that point I couldn’t say “Well, I played
professional baseball”, you know that’s why I just about gave it to him. But, no I never talked
about it. I was never recognized in my hometown of Minster Ohio as being a professional
baseball player. The only time that I was recognized in Minster, we were they have parades
during Oktoberfest so my friend Katie and I were in the parade for being recognized as baseball
players.
Interviewer: “Now when was this? Was this in the late ‘50s or ‘60s, much later?”
It was later, yes much later after maybe 20 years.
Interviewer: “Okay, almost every one of you that I have talked to that they just didn’t talk
about it (30:30), they didn’t tell their kids about it or anything like that. But at some point
�10
you went back to that period of time because did you go to that first reunion? I mean, how
did you get back acquainted?”
The first reunion was in Chicago in 1980 and that was really wonderful.
Interviewer: “So you went?”
Oh yes, absolutely.
Interviewer: “I guess what I am trying to get at is that you have gone all of these years …”
Without speaking about baseball, that’s right. Because nobody knew us, nobody knew what I
did. I mean I graduated from high school and they said “what are you doing this summer?” I’m
going to play ball. “Oh okay”. Nobody came out to watch me nobody from Minster came out to
watch me. It was like you must have done something bad. No, I didn’t do something bad, I
played baseball; and so when they made the movie that’s what really, really helped us. Then
people recognized what we did. And the people in my hometown did and they had parades for it
like I told you about. So that was wonderful and I told my family I played ball and they knew I
played ball because I coached them into how to play ball-softball, that’s what I played. And my
son was a baseball player and they knew that I played. And I was on the city league (32:00) and
the girl and I was playing fast pitch softball and I started to bunt and she said “Where did you
learn that?” I played professional baseball. “You played professional baseball?” So that’s how it
came about so as you know and everybody A League of Their Own movie helped us.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie?”
I thought it was great. Actually I met, I was there in Scopie? _, I was one of the 50 or 55 that
went there for a part in the movie. We met other people that were in the movie. We met Penny
Marshall, I threw softball with her, they had baseballs and softballs, and well they had baseballs.
But I threw ball with her and Madonna was there and she was sort of off limits so I got her
autograph but she came in her big Cadillac with body guards. Well she was famous; she made a
lot of money. So Penny was very grateful that she was in the movie and then before that she had
made big, so Tom Hanks is a tremendous baseball player and he loved being the coach. “You
mean I don’t have to get skinny?”, and anyway so it was the idea that he was [Jimmy Fox?].
Anyway, her daughter was in the (33:30) movie I met all of the players I mean Penny, Rosie, and
these people really are why we became famous. And that’s why the movie was, everybody was
crazy for it.
Interviewer: “How did your life change after that movie came out?”
Actually I was playing softball and the ladies I taught how to play softball knew that I had played
professional baseball and they had an idea, but they didn’t know really what I did, they knew I
played for the South Bend Blue Sox so when the movie came to Madison I was there and I was
�11
interviewed by the people from the TV station about they interviewed me. I knew that at that
point they thought “Wow, she lives in Madison and she played professional baseball”.
Interviewer: “This is going to sound like a stupid question but why do you come to the
reunions?”
I actually come to the reunions to see my friends. The majority of my friends played 51-54. I do
know some of the ladies that played at the beginning of the League and it was (35:00), so I come
because I enjoy being with the people and being interviewed by people. It is very nice the
reunions are very well organized, the people are very nice. And you see different kinds, I had
never been to Detroit so we come and I enjoy it.
Interviewer: “Now you mentioned a son, so you did eventually get married?”
Yes, I got married in 1958.
Interviewer: “Okay.”
So in 1958 after I flew for the airlines for a time before and during when I was flying. We got
married in 1958 and I could not go back and become a stewardess, it was not allowed. So after
marriage you could not fly, if you wore glasses you could not fly, you had to be a certain height a
certain weight, oh yes there were lots and lots of restrictions. So I got married in 1958 and we
moved to Madison and I raised 4 children, 3 daughters and a son.
Interviewer: “And you said earlier that they knew about your baseball career, but did you
let them know early on or is it something that they found out on their own later when the
movie came out (36:30), your kids?”
Oh they knew before when they grew up and realized that I also organized my son’s baseball and
they knew that I had played baseball and other coaches asked me to do this for them. But nobody
knew that how many teams there were how many players had done this and when we did this in
’43, nobody knew that. So it was, I mean it as we could say again, when the movie came out
everybody knew.
Interviewer: “What do you make of all of this superstardom? I mean think about it for a
moment, there are baseball teams all over place, and there are fans. But I have never
experienced the kind of adoration that the public seems to have for your group. You see it
little girls coming up to you, you see the public ‘Oh!’ of course they always say A League of
Their Own and you are right it is the movie that really made that known, but what do you
think about this whole hoopla, my gosh?”
I think that, even when I was on a plane coming here, sitting next to the guy “What are you going
to do in Detroit?” “Well I’m going to a baseball reunion”. “You mean A League of Their Own?”
“Yes, that what I mean”, and everybody around me turned around (38:00) to see what I looked
�12
like and what I did. So I explained to everybody what I did, I played ball. I think the majority is
when people come to our reunion and the look at us and say “Now you actually played baseball,
not softball?” “Baseball.” and they admire that, little kid’s do. All the little kids do, actually I
coach little kids, they didn’t know I played baseball but they knew I knew baseball and that was
the idea behind it. I knew what to do. I knew what to do when I coached my son’s team, that’s
what they asked me to do. I had two kids that I coached and played softball, these ladies, their
daughters played and they came up and asked me if I would coach them and teach them how to
play softball, so I did it for 15 years. I told them we’ll have practice on Tuesday and play on
Thursday, they did and they enjoyed it.
Interviewer: “I know that the questions I have asked of all of you that during the period of
the time that you played it was for the love of the game it was the fun the camaraderie, and
never really thought (39:30) that it was going to go anywhere beyond that. But now people
are saying to you, I am saying to you that this was an important part of American history.
Now I’m, pretty sure none of you thought ‘hmm, I’m going to play baseball and be a part
of American history.’ But how do you, I mean you have to accept the fact that people are
looking at this, you are put in the baseball hall of fame, Ken burns did a documentary out
baseball and said here was this amazing period of time, how do you react to this, this
realization that you are part of American history ?”
Yes, which at the time we were playing we had no idea that we would be recognized in the
baseball hall of fame and that we were a part of history. And the part of history never entered our
minds until they said okay we will make a movie about you. You are the pioneers of baseball;
and then it hit us. That we did do something that was great.
Interviewer: “How do you look back on that period now. I mean you get a chance to reflect
about this. You’ve had a full life, you have had kids you have a husband, this is just a small
segment?”
A small segment. Yes that was like, I was growing up. I was 16, I had I didn’t have to go to
school anymore I just played ball and I actually made (41:00) money. I knew eventually up
ahead that I would have to go on with my life with school or get a job or something but at that
point, when I was playing I never thought about it. I never could, because I didn’t think that we
were the pioneers of baseball, It was when I was playing softball in Minster, I’m not a pioneer of
softball however I am a pioneer of professional baseball and that’s what is great.
Interviewer: “Does that, looking back on it did those 4 years have a major impact on the
person you became?”
Well, no I don’t think so it was a lot of discipline which I had to have because I was quite proud
in high school. The idea was that it was a lot of discipline and Karl was a very good manager
and, no I think in the 4 years that I played the enjoyment of playing a sport 4 years was
�13
wonderful. An organized team and I didn’t think I was a pioneer of baseball I was just an All
American that played ball.
Interviewer: “Thank you so much, wonderful wonderful.”
Thank you.
(42:33)
�14
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_MFroning1123BB
Title
A name given to the resource
Froning, Mary (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Froning, Mary
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Froning O'Meara was born in Minster, Ohio, in 1934. She played on softball teams run by the local Catholic Youth Organization while in school, and was recruited into the AAGPBL in 1951. She played outfield for the South Bend Blue Sox from 1951 until the league folded in 1954. After baseball, she worked as an airline stewardess for several years, and then married and raised a family, and continued to play and coach baseball and softball.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank(Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Indiana
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-08
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4