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William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos
Interviewee: Adrian Tinsley
Date: 1984
Part: 6 of 8
[Barbara]
Come on, camera! There you go. Nope, not yet. Sorry. I’m still getting in there, so
I don’t have your finger [in the shot] and you have an incorrect white balance.
Hey, you didn’t do it! There it goes. Alright. We’re actually rolling. We can go any
time.
[Tinsley]
Okay.
[Barbara]
We were talking about the legacy of the college as a partially conservative...
[Tinsley]
Okay. The legacy of the college… that's a really broad question. And I guess
what I'd say about that is that we were very early strugglers with some things that
now need to be struggled with less and are just a very normal part of the college
scene. The whole issue of professional programs, for example, we struggled
hard over that, both intellectually and personally within our college community.
And we were dealing with professional programs, I think, long before they
became such a very important feature of collegiate life. Nowadays it's a very rare
student who majors in anything other than a professional program. I think we
struggled with some issues around how you do liberal education in a professional
program context. I think we came to some really good solutions to that issue. And
that, you know, probably that hasn't filtered out as much into the larger
community as I wish it would. I think there are a lot of articles to be written there,
if everybody's looking for articles to write about the college. Because ninety
percent of the students who go to college major in professional programs now.
So, I think that's important. I think, for students, a lot of the things that we wanted
to do for students and with students exist in very mainstream colleges. You
know, all the way from independent study, to at least some credit no credit
grading, to certainly internships, to stress on projects related to community
needs. A lot of stuff that was very innovative when we did it is not particularly
innovative now and is pretty much an accepted thing now. So, I think we were
sort of the first wave of a lot of new stuff that was coming into higher education.
That kind of legacy certainly remains; what doesn't remain is a space, you know,
a local habitation in the name; a place where you can go to get something. I'm
not sure I how want to put this. Where you can go, where you don't have to worry
about what the meaning… I'm literally going to take this answer again. Let me
think about it a second. I've talked to some of the William James faculty the last
year or so, talked to Richard, to Margaret Proctor, to Barry. Barry, I think it was,
�has talked in an interesting way about what it means that the William James
faculty are mainstreamed now and they're part of the ordinary units at Grand
Valley. And they haven't just disappeared into those units. I mean, they have
begun, maybe this is grandiose, but they have begun a little bit to transform the
settings that they're in. I know, you know, some of the William James faculty are
doing that in the places where they are at Grand Valley. And what Barry said
about that was: "Well, you know, as long as we had each other to talk to you, we
didn't really have to talk to the other faculty." And we didn't very much. But the
place was poorer because we didn't. And that's right. So, there is some sense in
which I think Grand Valley as a whole is enriched by having William James
faculty in the mainstream. It's the same argument you might have if you were
talking about women's studies, you know.
[Tinsley]
To what extent do you want to have a special place that women can go and
totally deal with their own issues and one another, and deal with women's
courses? And to what extent do you want to say every course in the university
should contain topics of particular relevance to women and should address its
subject matter from the perspective of the new scholarship on women. What's
missing is that there is no place you can go to now where you go there, and you
know that all the people there share your values, and care about the same kinds
of things that you care about, and want to…
[Barbara]
Okay, [inaudible] we'll use the rest but [inaudible]. Okay?
[Tinsley]
Okay. No place you can really go where you know that everybody shares your
values and cares about what you care about. And I think having that space is
really important to our students and to our faculty.
[Barbara]
Why?
[Tinsley]
One answer is because it was there, and it was safe, and we didn't have to
create it every day. You had it. It gave you some identity. You didn't have to
always be creating it at all the time. It was a place where you could go, and it
gave you some identity because you shape it and it shapes you.
[Barbara]
But Barry said, in his interview, that… you know, he very much believes in this
notion of moving out into the mainstream, and that its working, and that in his
classes that he is still teaching in a Jamesian way. But he said: "Of course, I
don't know how long it's going to last. I don't know how long my energy can last
since it's not being infused anymore."
[Tinsley]
Yeah.
[Barbara]
Because that's what the places does.
�[Tinsley]
Yeah. If you concentrate the energy there and concentrate the people there, you
can go deeper, and you can replenish it. And that's what's missing because the
space isn't there. And I suppose all of us are looking to find some other similar
kinds of space out in our lives.
[Barbara]
Including the students?
[Tinsley]
Yeah.
[Barbara]
Would you put this in personal terms now. What does it mean to personally
spend the eight years you did, working very hard?
[Tinsley]
Well, I suppose… let me say what it meant to me professionally really first, rather
than talking first about what it meant personally. I went from William James to the
state… stop. Let me think about this another minute. I don't want to, you know,
falsely romanticize the period at William James; although, I personally do believe
it was a kind of Camelot. I do know that when I did go back and do administrative
work, I felt very strongly that I wasn't ready to go back to another campus. I
couldn't give my heart to another campus in the same way. And so, I took a job in
the central office of the state university system. And two things seem important to
me that I want to say. In Minnesota, I've been in a very mainstream
administrative situation. I work with seven separate state universities, with their
vice presidents, with their presidents, with strategic planning, with academic
policy. The people in that system are very good. They are very competent,
professionally. Minnesota, I would guess, is one of the very advanced states in
the union, in terms of not only its support for higher education, but the
professionalism with which their system is managed. And what I've learned is
that, although I work with an incredibly competent professional people,
professional values are not enough. The change for me was growing from a
place where, I mean heaven knows we did want to be competent, but there was
a real value beyond competence. There was a reason you wanted to be
competent. There was a reason you were doing what you were doing. So, by the
contrast that existed at William James, simply, the value of professional
competence is not enough. It doesn't keep you warm at night. It's too thin. I'm on
my way to go to Glassboro State College in New Jersey and I 'm now ready to be
back on the campus, and I am just really excited about going back to campus,
and, you know, and having a substantial leadership and management role on a
new campus now. But here's what I asked myself: I say, at William James,
everybody knew the meaning of what they were doing, so you could stand up
and so recite the litany, or you could have an external person to come in and
recite the litany and say this is what's important about what we're doing, this is
why it's important to work this hard, and this is why we're not cynical. Because
here's why we're doing what we're doing, and we really care about it. I go to
�Glassboro and I say, you know, what does the vice president do? The vice
president has got to find that thing that the institution is doing that's important and
put that in the public space and say: "This is what we're doing, and this is
important, and it's important that we're doing it and we're doing it well." And I
don't find it really easy to look at a Glassboro or at the state colleges in
Minnesota and say: "Here's what I can say about that. Here's why it's important
in the mid nineteen-eighties to be doing this." And I think that's a problem that we
are dealing with in higher education. It's hard to talk about why we're doing what
we're doing and why it's so important. And it's hard to get that into the public
space.
[Tinsley]
I remember when the colleges were about to be dissolved, and Robert said: "The
problem is that it's not that I don't want to work in CAS, I mean all those people
are fine, but I've got to have something I can believe in. I just can't work with
people who are cynical or who are apathetic." And so, what I'm saying is there
was no cynicism, or very little, or little apathy at William James. And how do you
find in a mainstream institution… how do you find, sort of, what you hang your
hat on for the meaning of it. And I think that's the question that we answered at
William James. And that's the question I want to try to answer now at a more
mainstream institution. I don't think finding that answers is going to be just real,
real easy.
[Barbara]
This is going off from that answer what we thought was important in James and
the reason that we would be energizing and uniting the kind of notions that we
had. Were they specific to the time? Are they not specific now? Why can't you
just take those notions to your new job?
[Tinsley]
No, they're not; they are specific to the time and let me talk a little bit about that
because I have thought a lot about this and I really believe it. In the midseventies, the agenda of the society was access and new opportunities. And it
was very important to open higher education up to women, and black people,
and minorities of all kinds, and older students, and people that hadn't been to
college before. And we put a lot of stress on that. And William James came out of
that milieu and that was very important to us. That is not a value in nineteen
eighty-five. In nineteen eighty-five, we talk about quality which is – depending on
how you look at it – is either a positive or negative from my perspective. I think
there is some genuinely good work being done under the rubric of upgrading
quality, but there's also some genuinely reactionary stuff being done under that
rubric. And the agenda for the institution is the economic development of its
region, science, and technology. The issues that the institutions are dealing with
are very different. In the mid-seventies, we had the federal government really
pushing access, really putting money into social services. Now we have science,
and math, and technology. I think there's no reason that we can't relate to this
�new agenda. But we haven't really thought about what it means for the values we
had in the seventies. So, I think the times are very, very different. And I think
that's why it's hard to find the spine of the institution in the eighties. I mean that's
what I learned from dealing with seven mainstream institutions in Minnesota and
the state legislature.
[Barbara]
Because my experience… I'm blinking again. My experience…
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
William James College Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Identifier
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GV016-16
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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GV016-16_GVSU_31_Tinsley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Tinsley, Adrian
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Title
A name given to the resource
Adrian Tinsley interview (6 of 8, video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Adrian Tinsley by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Adrian Tinsley was Dean of William James College from 1972 until 1980. In this interview, Adrian discusses the legacy of William James College and the importance of having a community with shared values, in addition to the importance of keeping the William James philosophy alive. This interview is part 6 of 8 for Adrian Tinsley.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
College administrators
Women college administrators
Women in higher education
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
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PDF Text
Text
William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos
Interviewee: Adrian Tinsley
Date: 1984
Part: 7 of 8
[Barbara]
Oh, I always ask you to do it when the cameras are warming up.
[Tinsley]
Alright. Okay, let’s see a piece of white paper in front of my…
[Barbara]
Okay, it’s all wound up. It's not in really great shape, truth be told. I kept it,
though, for some reason… must have something I'm supposed to do.
[Tinsley]
Yeah, you’re supposed to tell them how to allocate your TIAA and your CREF.
[Barbara]
Oh yes, I think I'll just let it set. Thank you. I didn't really plan on that saving me
anyway. Alright, we are almost good. Best thing about your experience at
James? Is that a meaningful question?
[Tinsley]
Oh, I think it is. It's like a psych quiz question, but, yeah, the best thing about it is
that it had meaning – it really had meaning – and it was important. You felt like
you were using your life for something useful. I've always liked Marge Piercy's
poem "To Be of Use." And you felt like, at James, you weren't just treading water,
you were doing something very, very useful. And that was the best thing about it.
And you were also doing it in the company of like-minded people who were
friends, and intimates, and you really had a family that you were doing it with. So,
I think those two things were the best. We weren't the only institution that was
doing this; there were other colleges like us. FIPSE, the grantmaking agency in
Washington, was very much like us. A lot of little enclaves of people doing this
kind of work and it seemed real and important.
[Barbara]
If you…
[Tinsley]
And it was! Sorry.
[Barbara]
I'm being a bad interviewer. I'm really listening to you. I am listening to you, but I
was thinking of the next question. Which is: if you had to sum up the nature of
William James College in just one sentence, what would it be?
[Tinsley]
Well, I actually frequently did have to sum up the nature of William James
College in just one sentence for a variety of public relations and mission
definition purposes. But I don't remember any of the sentences and I'm sure
�none of them were very real. William James was a place where people talked
about real things and did real work, and really loved each other.
[Barbara]
No two people have said anything resembling the same thing. They just go with
the strength of the college and its weakness. And no one has said “synoptic”
either. [Laughter]
[Barbara]
Okay, there is one question around in my head and it’s something that I wrote
down in the beginning. It has to do with power, and you sort of talked about it
when you talked about CAS and all that sort of stuff. Couldn't have we been more
political? Even though we were small, dammit, some small things survive
because they are so political, because they do their own PR so as well. Do you
have any feelings about that?
[Tinsley]
Well, let me think about it. I am myself a structuralist, and I believe the structure
of Grand Valley – not the structure of William James – worked against us. In the
back of my head is the nagging thought: "Suppose we really had been more like
them?" Because I don't think you can fudge that, because you can't go around
pretending to be like somebody when you're really not. Suppose we're really
more like them, and our values, and what we want to do, but our values were sort
of more like theirs, would it have helped? My honest answer is no, it probably
wouldn't have. Because, structurally, we just had a very difficult situation to deal
with. But that's from my perspective. I sure did everything I could. And so, you
know, maybe it's in my interest to not be able to think of anything else that could
have happened.
[Barbara]
Richard talks about a siege mentality being very useful to us, energizing us. To
go out more would have destroyed some of the energy that helped us work as
well together as we did.
[Tinsley]
Yeah, I don't think going out more on the Grand Valley campus would've helped
us a lot. I really don't. Because it would've been that painful work of trying to
make friends with CAS. And they didn't really want… it takes two to make friends,
it really does. If we would've been able to get outside into the local community
even more than we did – and we did a lot – that might have helped.
[Barbara]
Do you want to do it again, quickly, the story about… the story happened
because you were talking about how we could not… how this could not work,
how we were at a disadvantage. One example was losing computers, and you
made that bit by the anecdote of the day we lost computers. And if you want to
retell it using euphemisms, fine by me. [Laughter]
[Tinsley]
[Laughter] I don't think so, the point of the story comes from the cast of
�characters. But I will trust you not to use it on the tape.
[Barbara]
What about first part, when you talk about them being from Holland? Is that
okay?
[Tinsley]
I think.
[Barbara]
I think so, too.
[Tinsley]
I think it’s okay.
[Barbara]
Is there anything to say here? [Inaudible]
[Tinsley]
Oh golly, well there probably is, but I can't think of it at moment.
[Barbara]
It’s tiring at this point.
[Tinsley]
It is, it is tiring. No, I mean I would like to talk on about it for another ten hours,
but I don't have anything in particular at the moment.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
William James College Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
GV016-16
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
GV016-16_GVSU_32_Tinsley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Tinsley, Adrian
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Title
A name given to the resource
Adrian Tinsley interview (7 of 8, video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Adrian Tinsley by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Adrian Tinsley was Dean of William James College from 1972 until 1980. In this interview, Adrian discusses the highlights of her experience at William James College and the overall nature of the college consisting of community and conversation. This interview is part 7 of 8 for Adrian Tinsley.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
College administrators
Women college administrators
Women in higher education
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
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PDF Text
Text
William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos
Interviewee: Adrian Tinsley
Date: 1984
Part: 8 of 8
[Barbara]
The question is: what is the quality of the education that we were giving
students?
[Tinsley]
Okay, ready for me to go on that?
[Barbara]
Yep, anytime.
[Tinsley]
Okay. The issue of quality was a real one during the life of the college. I think
looking back, I would have to say that the quality of what we did was variable.
For the good students, what we gave them was breathtakingly good, I think. We
gave them access to superb faculty. We gave them access to sort of a panoply of
resources that they would not have gotten in a conventional undergraduate
education. The students that were less good could skate and that was a problem
– and I think we did have some students skate. It seems to me that the issue of
quality was very tied into the real ethos in the college on individual energy and
individual rights. I think the college always leaned towards wanting the individual
to express himself or herself. It was difficult in the college to get a clear sense of
institutional norms; at least, those norms could not be imposed easily by
administrators. They needed to develop in kind of a more organic fashion and I
think that was a problem sometimes. For example, in terms of our beliefs about
appropriate curriculum, appropriate grading standards, and the like. As the years
went on, I think we had a lot more homogeneity about those things. But part of
what I did as Dean was endlessly negotiate with faculty. There was no sense that
I had any divine right to set standards or, indeed, to set policy. It was a matter of
endless negotiation in a milieu where, as I said earlier, the ethos was on the
individual's right rather than the institution’s necessity. Looking back, I guess, as
Dean of the College, if there is an area where I should have paid more attention,
it is… no, let me stop that and you come back to this, okay.
[Barbara]
Let me change the shot, then you can do it. That's fine.
[Tinsley]
As the college matured, we began to get a curriculum we were pretty comfortable
with. I think there were still, probably, some issues around supervision of
internships and independent studies. There were still some course titles that
remained as symbolic battles between the faculty and the administration. I think
in another two, three, four years we would probably have been on a cycle of
�independent curricular reviews with outside consultants. In the end, in terms of
the curriculum itself, I felt very good about it. I felt it was a strong curriculum. In
terms of the standards of the college, in terms of what happened to individual
students, I think we probably always let students skate a bit too much. I think we
paid for that very heavily.
[Barbara]
Say that last sentence again because I screwed up. So just the last sentence: "In
the end..." is a good time to start.
[Tinsley]
In the end… about the curriculum?
[Barbara]
No, just in the end about individual students.
[Tinsley]
In the end, I think we always erred a bit on the side of putting out a hand to
individual students to help them through. And sometimes, in some places in the
college, we did that too much; we weren't tough enough. We paid for that, I think,
very, very heavily. That's something I won't do again; it was too costly for the
college.
[Barbara]
Finito?
[Tinsley]
Finito.
[Barbara]
Good.
[Tinsley]
I guess the last thing I'd like to say about the college – after having done some
thinking about it in connection with this taping – seems to me that most of us, or
all of us, brought to the college a desire that our work have real meaning; that our
work bring meaning into our lives; that our work perhaps be the significant source
of meaning in our lives. We wanted a kind of a texture in our work; a kind of
depth in our work. Clearly not some kind of situation where we did our work and
did home in our real lives outside of work. Our real lives – our most important
lives – were in our work in the college. Sometimes this provided some stress and
strain. We made demands that our work give meaning that I think aren't very
unusual in American work life. And I think for most of us, the experience of
having the college no longer present is that it's forced us to say: "In whatever
work life I'm in now, how can I make it have that kind of meaning for me?" That's
certainly true for me. One of the things that is very interesting to me as I look at
what the faculty are doing now – and because of my position, I knew the faculty
better than I knew most students – it seems to me that there's almost a little
explosion of good work going on: research, writing, work products coming out of
people that were on the William James faculty or interesting jobs. Almost as if
some of our energy that was being used to make the college work is going right
into creative work products. And I see that as coming out of this desire to find
�meaning in one's work that I think is so important and that I think was really
critical to us at the college. Sorry I trailed off on that.
[Barbara]
[Laughter] I'm tempted, I won't do it, I'm tempted…
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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William James College Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley.
Date
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1984
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
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GV016-16
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eng
Oral History
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GV016-16_GVSU_33_Tinsley
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Tinsley, Adrian
Date
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1984
Title
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Adrian Tinsley interview (8 of 8, video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Adrian Tinsley by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Adrian Tinsley was Dean of William James College from 1972 until 1980. In this interview, Adrian discusses the quality of education at William James College and how the experience brought meaning to the lives of those involved. This interview is part 8 of 8 for Adrian Tinsley.
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Subject
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Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
College administrators
Women college administrators
Women in higher education
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7bc10ca36c87103e5d847537d0002494.mp4
3389952cc9a5c472ecd04993bca176e6
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/52659b18946217b719f10feba4aebfa8.pdf
b2e45ffb1db38ed59ed54fb01414f2fb
PDF Text
Text
William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos and Stephen Rowe
Interviewee: Arend Lubbers
Date: 1984
Part: 3 of 3
[Conversation between President Lubbers and Professor Stephen Rowe]
[Rowe]
Was that characteristic of College IV as well as Thomas Jefferson and James?
The model was this distinction among and between units about pedagogy. You're
suggesting that underlining that there was a deeper distinction between the
traditional education and the experimental. Is that a fair understanding of what
you are saying?
[Lubbers]
Yeah, I think so, I think it was. The experimental education with its structures – its
evaluation structures and its curriculum – were just not acceptable or respected.
The College IV, later the Kirkhof experiment, I don't think that the ire of the faculty
in CAS was directed so much to that institution as it was to Thomas Jefferson
and then to William James. But I think the criticism by that time was, "Well, we
don't… this organizational structure is inefficient and there's no need for us to be
this way. And it would be so much better if we're offering similar kinds of
education." That is, I mean, we're offering English everywhere, languages. We
should be putting the faculty together and doing departments the traditional way
and have stronger departments. And so, there was not only the antagonism
directed toward the experimentalism of the institutions, and that was the great
part of it, but also toward the inefficiency. And then in the struggle for credits and
courses, who's going to get the students, and can we get them, or do they get
them?
[Rowe]
Did the traditionalism learn anything through contact with James and the other
colleges?
[Lubbers]
I don't know. I would, as I said, I think the heritage left is what I described, is the
way we are organized in professional disciplines and the liberal learning
disciplines together. I don't know to what degree people accept that, endorse it,
or grudgingly accept it. I don't know… that you'd have to take a vote of the faculty
to find out. But at least that's the heritage. I would say most of the faculty who
were opposed to the experimental colleges would probably say good riddance.
You know, I'm not sure that there is any cherishing of the past in any way. I think
this is about time that this was put aside. That's the way I view it. I haven't taken
any scientific surveys to know how people really feel.
�[Rowe]
Changing the subject a little, can you comment on legacy or heritage in relation
to the larger community? Perception of William James’ alumni or with the college
in the larger community?
[Lubbers]
You mean, how the larger community viewed the experimental colleges? Or?
[Rowe]
You're right, and its products, the students.
[Lubbers]
No, I really don't have anything to base a judgment on. I do think that the
community had a difficult time understanding our structure at that time.
[Rowe]
Grand Valley's?
[Lubbers]
Grand Valley's. And the public, generally, was not too sympathetic to the
experimentalism that went on here. Well, there are always exceptions and
pockets of people who liked it. But, I think, generally in this this area of the United
States, experimental education is not looked upon with great favor. And we
weren't looked upon with great favor for indulging in it. So far as graduates are
concerned, I don't know. Like you, I run across graduates of William James or
Thomas Jefferson, who are very… seem to be happy and pleased with what
they're doing and respected the education they received in those colleges. So,
there is that heritage, too; the heritage of the people who enjoyed and benefited
from it. I think, again, as I look back on the '70s – maybe period from seventy-one
to seventy-three or four – was the high watermark in terms of Thomas Jefferson
College. William James might be a little bit later than that – maybe seventy-five,
seventy-six – where both colleges had their best students, the largest number of
good students, and those people have done very well. And after that, there were
fewer good students attracted to that kind of education. And I don't regret having
done it. As a matter of fact, I think in a crucial stage and I believe there was
something happening to people, to young people, whether it was the Vietnam
War or what it was. But, from the late '60s into the '70s, well into the ‘70s. This is
a generation cut from a different cloth, I think. You know, in all of my experience,
they're different. And that kind of educational approach saved a lot of people a lot
of difficulty and agony. They would not have fit into the traditional mold. And they
did have places to go, other places in the country, too. But they had some places
to go here, and their older brothers and sisters and their younger brothers and
sisters have gone in the traditional route, but they were that group that needed it,
needed something different. And that was a great service to them.
[Rowe]
Here again, we're back to the term that emerges from this discussion, is really
basic, and that is: experimentalism, which so far has been characterized as this
certain kind of evaluation and this certain kind of flexible, if not loose, curriculum.
And now as a refuge, that seems in this whole discussion to be the one term that
needs one level deeper. Or can you say more about what this experimentalism is
�or was at its best? In some ways, all of the characterizations we have so far are
negative. Lack of evaluation, overly flexible curriculum, refuge from the society.
[Lubbers]
Well, of course.
[Rowe]
What is the positive?
[Lubbers]
The negative… the positive is the other side of the negative. These people who
flourished in that kind of environment were those people who flourished best
when there was no traditional curriculum and no traditional evaluation system.
They did flourish very well for a small period of time.
[Rowe]
Self-motivated was the term that you used earlier.
[Lubbers]
They were self-motivated, and they were in a state of rebellion, too. Now, if
you're rebelling, you have some idea about what you're rebelling against. But
then where do you channel your energy? What do you do with that energy that is
born out of rebellion? Where do you take yourself? Where do you take your body
and where do you take your mind and what do you do with it? If you have a place
to go where you can do some positive things, where you're not restricted by that
which you are rebelling against and you can find another object for your
attention, you're likely to not waste so much time.
[Rowe]
What was the object of attention?
[Lubbers]
The object of attention was the learning in these institutions. And they could take
themselves and go to a curriculum and work with some faculty members to do
what they wanted to do and move on.
[Rowe]
The study plans and riddling people to do what they want to do and become
entitled or empowered, except for individually, was certainly something that was
important to James.
[Lubbers]
Yes, it was.
[Rowe]
Perhaps to all experimental education, I'm not sure.
[Lubbers]
I think it is to all, I think it characterized experimental education of that era – of
the late '60s and '70s.
[Rowe]
So this was basically a vision. This experimentalism was a vision of perhaps a
very modern vision or a revival of the very modern vision of the independence
and development of the individual person.
�[Lubbers]
Right. Yes, I think so.
[Rowe]
And what was the social or communal or cultural implication of that or was there
any? Was it merely individual, as so much of modernism has been in ways
problematic?
[Lubbers]
It may, I think, more individual than I thought it would be at the time.
[Rowe]
Then this is a question for me as well. What was the communal vision that
accompanied that individualism? What was it?
[Lubbers]
Oh, I think, again, a more egalitarian society where the hierarchies would no
longer exist, where there would be decision by consent of the group. I think there
was a lot of that at that particular time. And I don't know exactly why except,
again, a reaction against the Vietnam War and a government that was waging
war and not always telling the truth. And that became obvious and here you are
where power is. You know, power is far away from you and it's coming in on your
life from that distance that you can't get at. You can't get at it. You can't influence
it. And I think that at that particular time, the experimental education carried the
communal vision of "we're going to be small groups deciding our own destiny."
And we begin in our experimental college by governing our experimental college
that way.
[Rowe]
In retreat from or separate from the larger communal structures, not in a way that
would reform them?
[Lubbers]
No, I think the hope was that they would be reformed, that the experiments would
work, and that out of this would come a new age. And certainly, the campuses
would be democratized and that was a hope. But, we Americans, when we have
our objectives and hopes, and we usually solve our problems as quickly as
possible. And we're not… we usually think that our vision will become reality
within our lifetimes. And I think I'm finding out that when you do experiment, you
maybe make a small step towards realizing what you want and what you hold is
ideal and as desirable. But then you don't get there all at once and you don't get
there in one lifetime.
[Rowe]
Rats, well this is just getting started.
[End of Lubbers Interview]
[Start of Rowe Interview]
�William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos and Arend Lubbers
Interviewee: Stephen Rowe
Date: 1984
[Conversation between Professor Stephen Rowe and President Lubbers]
[Lubbers]
[Inaudible] everyone, there are no students here. I mean, some may come back
or their students, but really there's no student tradition anymore or there are no
students here who talk about William James or Thomas Jefferson.
[Rowe]
Or in the community, for that matter. This William James association about which
I was nagging you about this plaque and not letting them paint the wall, it ceased
to exist. I mean, they can't even get a damn plaque on the wall, you know. They
don't…
[Lubbers]
It's interesting. It is almost as though it hasn't happened. And as we go about our
daily business, as I go about my daily business, that which was so important in it
during the decade of the '70s, it's almost as though it never existed.
[Barbara]
Hey, could you ask a question… rephrase your question about the communal
side of James? That's one question I would like to have on camera. It was just in
this last part of the interview.
[Rowe]
If the college was… if the experimentalism was essentially about the
enhancement or development of individualism, what then was the communal…
the accompanying communal vision, if any? Anarchism, some sense of the
individual fully developed in such a way that he or she is able to be in community
in the way that their ancestors weren't?
[Lubbers]
Is egalitarianism more than…[Inaudible]?
[Rowe]
What does that mean?
[Lubbers]
People living equally and sharing equally, deciding the fate of their lives as
equally as possible?
[Rowe]
Yeah, but see, that's a term in the modern period like "freedom" that everybody
uses and that means different things. I would say basically in the modern
orientation, there's equality of sameness and equality of difference. In our best
moments, the communal vision that accompanied this particular sense of
individual development, at the best, argued for an equality of difference; at the
�worst moments, it became an equality of sameness. That makes sense, right?
[Lubbers]
Yeah, the right. Yeah, which then comes back on itself as individualism, doesn't
it? It's, in a sense, the equality of difference is really… it's a kind of individual who
"I have a right to be different and work out my destiny than say we have a right to
be different and work out our own destiny." But then it's every little we… it's kind
of like Protestantism that it breaks up finally because everyone has a right to be
what she or he wants it to be.
[Barbara]
I'm sorry, I know you want to follow this through, but I just have a certain amount
of tape. I need to ask one more question… ask some sort of intro question to the
notion of the cluster college. You asked very early in the first…
[Rowe]
An intro to what he said?
[Barbara]
Yeah.
[Rowe]
I'm trying to remember.
[Barbara]
Well, the answer is that [inaudible] had to do with the difficulties of that structure.
[Rowe]
Okay. Developing out of your and the founders of the college's notion of small
educational communities, Grand Valley became, in effect, a cluster college. What
were the difficulties that were related to that kind of model in itself? And how is
that different from the Oxford model of small communities? I think the answer to
that is at Oxford, the pedagogical differences developed sort of willy-nilly over a
long period of time. Whereas, here in America, in some ways we tried to make
them. Arend [Lubbers] wouldn't talk about the problem we're making at that point.
[Lubbers]
That’s true, well we took a single institution and broke it up into pieces and it
wasn't ready to be broken up into pieces. Whereas universities, many
universities, people came, they did their little thing, and the other people did their
little thing side by side. And then finally, it develops… a kind of unity evolves.
[Rowe]
A more organic rather than made.
[Barbara]
It's now eleven o'clock, okay?
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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William James College Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
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Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Identifier
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GV016-16
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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GV016-16_GVSU_47_Lubbers-Rowe
Creator
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Lubbers, Arend
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Title
A name given to the resource
Arend Lubbers interview (3 of 3, video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Arend Lubbers by Barbara Roos and Stephen Rowe, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Arend "Don" Lubbers was president of Grand Valley State University from 1969-2001 and served as president during the lifespan of William James College. In this interview, President Lubbers and professor Stephen Rowe have a conversation about William James College and its place within Grand Valley history, its legacy and heritage within the larger college community, and the positive elements of experimental education. This interview is part 3 of 3 for Arend Lubbers.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Rowe, Stephen (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
College presidents
College administrators
Lubbers, Arend D.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6b4d84f00fdc8cd8de12406995503e38.mp4
4dd7674a909a05ce5621e2639b2bfe3e
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c807b3539897a4a2cef639997f1bea5e.pdf
c5ddaec34919cefbda8a7589874da101
PDF Text
Text
William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos
Interviewee: Barry Castro
Date: 1984
[Barbara]
I told you that the students would be among the audience. Was there something
you want to be sure to say?
[Castro]
When I talk to my management classes now, management is a difficult field to
teach, in a way, because you've got lots of students who haven't ever been in a
managerial context, an ordinary one, haven't been in the industrial context, and
they get a bunch of management courses as part of a business curriculum. So,
your task is to find some experiential context that they can connect that
theoretical material to make it their own. And I like using classroom material for it.
One of the major management theories that we talk about is Douglas McGregor's
"Theory Y" notion of invoking participation loosely. McGregor argues that it's
necessary to assume a willingness to be involved, a willingness to work. That
there is no adversarial relationship between work and a firm [?]. And that given
that assumption, it will be ill-founded sometimes, but you will get much more
happening than if you don't. And it talks about the disastrous consequences of
beginning with the opposite assumption. And everybody affirms that, and people
read that stuff and they feel "Lord, it's just mom and apple pie, of course that's
true." And at around that point I asked them how many of them have heard of the
cluster colleges and William James, and Thomas Jefferson, and those places.
And it's recent enough so that many of them have. And I say that, you know, that
is really what we did, we were pushing on that kind of involvement, all the time,
and from ourselves, from students, students doing it to each other. It was what
made the place work. But looking at it from the outside, what do you know about
it? I guess that's the first thing I ask. And they say: "Well non-graded, one. And
two, easy." And we talk about the proclivity to define participative management
as soft management by people on the outside of it. So, the resistance you get to
any effort to manage in a way that involves subordinates in a way a firm really
works is people on outside giggling and saying: "Oh my! Just look at what they're
letting them get away with." And when they can find someone who is actually
getting away with something, there's a cause for real celebration there. And to
say that abstractly is nothing. But to point at the people in my class and say
"Look at what you folks are doing," with very little information. But your incentive
is so great to interpret what you've got, or to make up information that you don't
have, that kind of resistance to managerial innovation, to, I think, good
management, needs to be reckon with all the time. And it's the case in point that I
use. I think for students and faculty, we were made to order for them. Many of
�our students come to school… many students at places like Grand Valley come
to school having a notion that if it's hard, it's good, and if it's fun, there's
something wrong with it. So, the Board of Education in Grand Rapids, I think, last
week passing resolutions saying, "Everybody should have homework." And the
City High School, which prides itself on being a quality institution in Grand
Rapids, advertises itself as "two hours of homework a night," as if that was the
elixir, you know, that was the magic stuff that made it work. And they're onto
something about the sociology of your clientele that's right because the clientele
are so bound up in that notion that if you involve people, and you let them have
fun with it, you're somehow doing it wrong. You're not giving them the real stuff.
And I think that was very hard for us to overcome.
[Barbara]
Could we have overcome it, or did the administration have a responsibility to help
us overcome it? Where could this ever have been fought?
[Castro]
Well, public image-wise, I think we were in much, much better shape for fighting
it for the last few years. I think we got to know what we were doing much better.
And asking for public… the public has a notion that we're supposed to know what
we're doing from scratch. And that were supposed to come in and just do
something, all which has been invented, which in any field is absurd, no field I
think more absurd than in education. The standard item, the routine stuff, the
kinds of classes they are used to… know what they're doing, certainly know
better than we do. In my view, often knew less well, they inquired less
thoughtfully into what they were doing. The question doesn't come up for them,
and folks were… it would be hard to get folks willing to give us the time to be so
much above the mark, so they can begin to trust us even though we were out of
the ordinary. I don't think there's a lot the administration could have done about
that. My neighbors who say "Thomas James" were not reachable by the
administration. And they were sophisticated, nice people who like me and think
that it must've been a little bit okay because I was there. They don't mean to be
putting it down, but they can't get it straight.
[Barbara]
If you had to sum up what made James unique, very, very briefly, like two or
three sentences, what was the thing that was critical?
[Castro]
Keywords: ambition, involvement, tremendous seriousness about education, and
not being caught up in cynicism about careers and making it and looking for
things. We talked about vocation all the time, looking for real vocation, and the
students who are… I think profit most from the place, were most involved in it
and the faculty were most involved in it, had found the vocation there, which was
going to be with them the rest of their lives, as far as I can tell. And that seemed
enormously valuable to me.
[Barbara]
That's a wonderful execution. I think we’re running [Inaudible]… yeah,
�everything’s fine. Is there an answer… this may be too personal, in which case
let’s not treat it as a serious question. Can you phrase why you came to James
without laying on a whole biography? What was there in you that readied you for
an alternative setting? Why was traditional education not satisfactory?
[Castro]
Well, I came there… I read an article about it, actually, that just touched on it.
Mostly about Grand Valley in general, more about TJC, a little bit about James
and change. But I was taken enough with the ambition of what was going on here
to write Don Lubbers a letter saying I read this article about your place and I'm
interested. And Don passed it on to Adrian and I got invited out for an interview,
which was nice. I think the particularities of my own situation is there's nothing…
the only problem about personal is I don't know how generalizable it will be. I
taught with some very good people when I began teaching who were serious and
good about what they did. And I did a kind of extended apprenticeship with them.
A historian named Herb Gottman, a sociologist, people who became friends and
had been at it longer than me and were very good. And I got a sense that I was
going to college over again, only much better this time than I had gone the first
time. And that was wonderful, and I wanted to keep on doing that. That stayed
with me for a while. Then one of the people I taught with at that first institution got
to be dean of faculty at a new branch of CUNY that started in nineteen seventy.
And called me and asked if I wanted to organize a social science program there.
And it was a wonderful opportunity to invent from scratch an institution. And we
did a lot of things wrong in that invention. But I learned a lot at [Inaudible] which
was the name of this place at City University and wanted a place to use what I
had learned and going to an economics department to do micro, macro and an
occasional elective seemed very dreadful, yes. And when I came to James, I
think the first… immediately upon coming in, and meeting people, and getting
some sense of what the place was about. It was as if I had been here forever. I
recognized it and I don't know what folks’ reaction to it – my stance – was, but I
never entertained the possibility that they wouldn't hire me at all. I mean it was
mine and of course they'd… it belonged to me. And they did what they were
supposed to do, but it was very compelling.
[Barbara]
What would you say, again, not being very specific about current things, but in
teaching now… no, it's not a good question, forget it. I’m sorry. Stop for a
second. God, he’s looking gorgeous, isn’t he? Its fine, I'll cut through the other
stuff. Okay, that's the question we’re on.
[Castro]
Okay. I want to talk about…
[Unknown]
That side, yes. Like that, that's…
[Castro]
The difference between… I've been teaching the last couple years in a business
school environment and that seems on first vision… when I first understood that I
�would be going to a business school, that was, it certainly felt like it was going to
be a very alien environment, it was scary. It has not been an alien environment.
The internal dynamics of my classes seem very similar to what went on in
James. I am teaching in the same way and I feel that I am being responded to
well. In some ways, very well. I am more of a rare commodity teaching at a
school of business than I ever was at James. And folks could kind of nod their
head when I did what I did at James and they are hearing it all for the first time.
[Barbara]
Like what?
[Castro]
Well, the purpose of this class is not information transmission, boom boom,
boom, boom, boom. What we’re up to is engaging your thinking and engaging
you in a conversation on the one hand with the literature, and on the other hand
with the experience, and getting you to see that conversation, and respond to it.
And getting smarter. I tell my students that the heart of management, the only
two real ingredients of management are being as smart as you can be and good
manners. And everything else is detail. It all follows from that. You need to listen
to people, and respect them, and you need to think about what you're listening to
as hard as you can. It fits in the context of liberal education much better than I
think most people either in the humanities or in business schools know. And I’ve
discovered a sense of mission about getting people both in the humanities and in
the business schools to recognize that. That business schools can be perfectly
viable milieus to teach well in. And I think a lot of what business schools are has
been a reaction to feeling nasty prejudice coming from humanities. And the kind
of thumbing of the nose back at them and turning up of our speakers, or ghetto
blasters, or whatever, and just letting it blare out. Because you guys expect us to
be doing that anyway, so we're going to let you have it. So, it's been fun to
discover that there was something real for me to do in this milieu. And fun also
that there were large numbers of students who were there, who I didn't need to
go scraping for them, there was support from the outside environment, we didn't
need to defend the business school’s right to exist, at all. I could go on to do the
work that I needed to do as a teacher, without needing to deflect my energies in
all sorts of ways that at James they got deflected. And that's been very exciting.
Students have been… they come to my office a lot. People are around, and
they're grateful for the kind of thing I've been pushing for. And I’ve very, very,
very little resistance. Actually, almost none that I know of… there may have been
some that's quiet. I miss the collegiality. I had Robert Mayberry next door to me
for ten years at James, and that was extraordinary and wonderful and I miss it.
But he's only across a short mall. This not having to worry about Alison
Bernstein's double preciousness has been very nice. I'm not in a precious milieu
now, I'm just in a business school. And if we can do the stuff we can do in that
kind of milieu, that's better. I don't think I could have gotten as good without
James, at all. I don't think we could have. I don't know that we can stay as good
without it, and I worry about that. And I worry about what's going to generate
�more faculty with those same commitments. And my sense is that we have to do
it. We have to keep on talking and wait until the next cosmic change happens,
right?
[Barbara]
Wonderful end to the show. Thank you! It was a good close.
[Videotape recording ends and begins again]
[Barbara]
Because also, like, everybody doesn't cover the same material, so it must be
clear that this isn't a real… I mean, people didn't get together and talk and
organize this. People's conversations do bypass each other a little bit, you know.
[Castro]
Are you going to get Adrian?
[Barbara]
Of course. She troubles me. Has she written you? She hasn't written me either.
[Castro]
She talked to me about three weeks ago.
[Barbara]
Oh really?
[Castro]
Where did I see her? Were we in Minneapolis?
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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William James College Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
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GV016-16
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
Oral History
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Identifier
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GV016-16_GVSU_55_Castro
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Castro, Barry
Date
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1984
Title
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Barry Castro interview (video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Barry Castro by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Barry Castro was a faculty member of William James College from 1973-1983 before becoming a professor of management for the Seidman School of Business. In this interview, Barry discusses the qualities that made William James College unique and the personal journey that led him to the college, in addition to how the WJC philosophy informs his management courses. This interview is part 1 of 1 for Barry Castro.
Contributor
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Subject
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Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5e80ee69ef712a4f112bc4bcf5477244.mp4
30939aaf18cd7d979b21ef5c88c4f704
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e8e53bdf1ad792dc8608871ef80622e5.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos
Interviewee: Bruce Klein
Date: 1984
[Barbara]
… So, Bruce, those are the things I want to know.
[Klein]
So you want to know why I came to James?
[Barbara]
I wonder if I can do it on this shoulder. Yeah, why… you know what I mean, we’re
not into big biographies, we’re into what James was. So, when phrasing your
answer… you know what I mean? Hey, that looks nice. That looks nice. Now we
got you. Make sure we have you focused. There. Anytime you want to start
talking, you're really clear.
[Klein]
Okay. Why did I come to James? That's an interesting question. I think you have
to do a little biography: I was at Virginia Tech. for five years teaching and before
coming up here. And Virginia Tech. is like Michigan State and I didn't like that. I
didn't like the movement towards one hundred, two hundred, three-hundredperson lectures and movement away from when I started there. It was a very
personal place because I was the only faculty member. There were two of us.
And by the time I left there were twelve of us with a PhD program and all of what
that implied. And it's a long and funny story about how I got to James. I applied at
Thomas Jefferson because I felt that any college for advertising in "The New
Republic" couldn't be all bad. And they correctly sent me back a letter saying:
"We're not interested in you; however, we've sent your material over to William
James." And that was the year before William James… that was the year when
James was being founded. So, I actually applied to William James before it
existed. Ken Hunter was hired instead of me. And two years later – I think it was
two years later – the circle came around and I was added to the staff. And it was
really, in a lot of ways… coming to James was a reaction against a standard
mega-versity type education.
[Barbara]
Okay, let me shift here. Okay. Now would you like to talk about… I just did
something, sorry. Talk about the movement of computers.
[Klein]
Okay, I think…
[Barbara]
Let me change the shot just a little.
[Klein]
To talk about the movement of computers from James to CAS is… I think there
were two reasons. One had to do James itself. And that was the students we
�were attracting were less and less interested in a linear kind of thing that
computing implies. And at the exact same time, a very powerful person on the
Grand Valley campus, Don Vander Jack, saw finally that computing was going to
be a very important curricula item and waged a campaign to move it. And we
were vulnerable because of dying enrollments in that area.
[Barbara]
That's real clear. Okay. Let me just check focus here. Okay.
[Klein]
It was interesting. When I came, there was a core of about twenty students, I
think, from roughly the first year or two of James that were really interested in
computing. And when I left – or when it was suggested I apply for an open
position in CAS by the Provost, let’s put it that way – there were probably fewer
than ten.
[Barbara]
Because? Well, you already said.
[Klein]
I already said. I don't think we were attracting… I think the message of James
was not the thing that was going to attract students interested in computing. And
the students that were attracted to James were turned off by "you can't take the
fourth course until you've taken the first three." I think there was some real
problems with that.
[Barbara]
Real clear. From the position of both an insider and an outsider, I was never an
outsider, you know what I mean, for James…
[Klein]
Yeah.
[Barbara]
Would you care to comment on its final demise? I mean, could it have been
prevented? What should we have done differently?
[Klein]
I don't think anything could have been done, not in the context of Grand Valley.
Grand Valley was going to make itself look like every other college in the state.
Because I think, at that time, there were some serious enrollment patterns
though James was doing just fine. If you want to look at James vis-à-vis
Seidman, the enrollment in James was – to my recollection – just as good as the
enrollment in Seidman. But I think the powers that be wanted Grand Valley to
look like every other college in the state because they were taking enough flak
for not being like every other college in the state.
[Barbara]
If you were to sum up James – the key to what we were trying to do or were
doing – in a sentence, what would that sentence be?
[Klein]
Wow. That's a hard one, Barb. Well, something that my wife and I have been
talking about a lot lately – and that's growth. Personal and intellectual. And I think
�to my mind that's what James was more about than anything else.
[Barbara]
You're a great interviewee. You say it!
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
William James College Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Identifier
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GV016-16
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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GV016-16_GVSU_40_Klein
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Klein, Bruce
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Title
A name given to the resource
Bruce Klein interview (video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Bruce Klein by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Bruce Klein was faculty member in William James College who worked at Grand Valley from 1977 to 2001 and later became Professor Emeritus of Computer Science and Information Systems. In this interview, Bruce discusses his personal journey that led him to William James College and the movement of the computer program from WJC to the College of Arts and Sciences (CAS). This interview is part 1 of 1 for Bruce Klein.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Lectures and lecturing
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4d60f6a4a26d054225de2696f4872cbb.mp4
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PDF Text
Text
William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos
Interviewee: Dahleen Menning
Date: 1984
Part: 1 of 2
[Menning]
Okay, it's hard for me to think back succinctly over almost nine years since we
began, since I came. I came, I think, the second year of William James. Actually,
it was the third technical year, but the first-year faculty weren't teaching and I was
hired the second year that faculty were teaching. So, I saw it pretty much from
the time it was a tiny, very tiny college to right up to the end. It kind of went
through a growth period and then had loss some students. And seemed like that
even though at the beginning we were struggling with so many things: places to
have classes, all kind of very basic functions of just getting the teaching job done.
There was a real excitement at that point to the students and the kinds of
interactions between the different individuals, the faculty and the students, and all
the parts that go into to making a college, that didn't sustain itself all the way to
the end, after nine / ten years. The memorable things from that early time,
besides having my office in a tiny basement, squalid place, was the real
independence and assertiveness of the students that would come to you and say
I want to do XYZ and here's how I'd like to do it and they had a plan. They
thought it all through. They were able to pretty much assess what they would
need to learn and how they would go about affecting this whole thing in their lives
and could see down the road and it was a very exciting thing to see that kind of
independent thinking. Now we had good dialogues and some bad dialogue. I
remember with students that used to argue, just for the sake of being
argumentative, about their projects, their particular work, their process, but most
of the time it was a really exciting, stimulating dialogue of growing and sharing,
and those are the times that I remember best with the most affection I think.
There was an exploring feeling amongst the faculty, as exploring feeling my
student and even when things didn't go well bureaucratically for some students,
often times they get hung up in the records office over procedures, those things
didn't seem to bother them. We'd roll with the punches, we'd go over and
straighten it out and sometimes even it was even funny and a bit humorous and
we all enjoyed that. It was part of the reaching out and exploring. The students
that I remember most clearly from that particular group were really wonderful
creative artists that I had in class, that in spite of the fact we didn't have a
traditional art program at that time, they seemed to grasp the necessary things
that were necessary to the art world, and they put them together and integrated
in with everything that was happening at William James and they wanted to be
part of the whole thing, and yet they could retain their independence as artists
and I found that very exciting and very mature and that is what I thought was the
ideal and I thought we lost that about sixth, seventh year, toward the very end.
�We didn't see students that exhibited that kind of independence. One that usually
sticks out in my mind took us through the whole art therapy program deal
because that was initiated by student who came into my office and planted her
feet and said: "I want to be our therapist and I think I can do it here. Can I do it
here? Here's how I'm going to do it." And I took a deep breath and said, “Well, it
looks like you can probably do it here. Let’s see if we can.”
[Menning]
And we actually put together an art therapy program for her that involved
internships and involve psychology courses, the art courses that she needed,
she had to take a few things over in the College of Arts and Sciences, but by in
large she put together a very strong personal program to study art therapy with
the resources that we had in the college. And that was my first real introduction
to internships because my particular persuasion in the arts is not an internship
related thing. In the fine arts there's not much you can do. You can't really
understand the painter. So, I had to go out and generate internship placements
and this student went out and she and I found them. We persuaded people to let
her try. It was a very ticklish situation because it involved working with people in
a clinical setting and she lived up to the promise. She was very mature, she
handled herself beautifully, and she set the pace and then right after her and I
have no idea how students seem to hear about it but they came out of the
woodwork and they found out that we were doing something with it and they want
to do it too and it wasn't very exciting thing and integrated the coursework from
the social sciences and from the fine arts and seem to be what the college was
about and that represented I think one of the nicest ideals. And we had a group
of students that went through, in the art therapy program, we didn't really have
one, but they devised their own programs, more or less, and most of the students
that I've kept track of have gone on to graduate school one way or another.
Some by taking time off to work locally in various social service agencies around
town, some of them rose to administrative positions in social service agencies
and went on to graduate school, some went right away. But they all seem to
make something of themselves and they all seem to use initially what they
decided they wanted to do in the context of William James College. And that
seem to be one of the shining examples for me and out of that discussion with a
student came the class that I was the most excited about in the end, as an
integrated thing, and that was the developmental art course that I taught initially, I
think with Willard Bradfield, and then I taught it on my own, changing and
developing and actually integrating practicum into that, plus studio experience,
plus theory and it was a very involved kind of course and the students came
through that course were clearly changed in their approach to things in life. And
that was what was really exciting to me. That that one course made a major
difference in those students in their entire life. They saw things differently, they
saw how they could affect change and people even if they were never going to
do it quite that way, even if they were never going to be in the classroom or if
they were never going to do art therapy, in particular. They all saw that there
�were methods for taking theory and then applying them and that if you learn
something and used it you could make something else happen and it was a very
powerful thing for me to see that happen, I think I learned a lot, and I change a lot
of my own teaching philosophy from that. It was a give and take situation with me
and the students.
[Menning]
They wanted something, ask if we can provide it, I was one of the providers, I
learned, developed my teaching ideas, developed a course to suit their needs,
they responded to the course they went on to do other work that was a
companion to that course and went on and graduated and did something
important. And that seemed to be a whole example of what the college was
supposed to be about. Then later on we tried to deal with this art therapy and
make it a "program" and we tried to pin it down because people got nervous
about it. People, you know, college, and people across campus because it had
clinical associations nervous that we wouldn't do it right or we'd damage
somebody and so on. And the whole thing got rather tight and everybody got into
it and then got out of it, and then we dropped it. But there were I guess three,
four years there where it seemed that we really were able to do something
important with students with the nucleus of the few classes, and a few faculty,
and a few student working together and learning and teaching each other. Now
that was one of the most memorable experiences that happened over a process
of several years. There were others I think that we're maybe a little less
outstanding in there William Jamesian-ness. There were students and classes in
just the art courses portion of the arts and media programs that I saw do actually
marvelous things and brought to class a personal integration of what they were
learning in the college but didn't have such a strong identification with any one
group of things and there were individual students that classes from other
individual faculty and have very good dialogues with those faculty and with me
and that we knew each other and had and shared that but it didn't happen in
such a programmatic way.
[Barbara]
Then what happened? That happened a lot and then what happened?
[Menning]
Well, it seem to me that about the fifth, sixth year the students changed quite a
bit in their independence, and they became less assertive and less self-directed
and didn't seem to want to struggle with why am I doing these things this way
and answering questions for themselves and they became more interested in the
how should I do it and their focus and classes changed radically. I felt a real
difference in their need for different teaching styles. Much more emphasis on
what needed to be done coming from the teacher. Much less willingness to
explore a personal route. More willingness to work hard sometimes I think, an
eager beaver attitude toward let's get the work done but you tell me what the
work is and the students initially were more interested in defining what the work
was. And so, my teaching style changed quite a bit. I noticed that my, well first of
�all, I start writing syllabi for courses, finally. Some of them are fairly loose syllabi.
Certainly, wouldn't pass muster to some of the things that end up writing now.
But nevertheless, I had to make a plan and follow through. I started to have to
have rules about attendance. One of the other things that happen I think was we
got a lot of bureaucratic nonsense laid on us that had to do with money. We had
to have more students in our classes.
[Menning]
And all of a sudden confronting thirty students in a studio class changed the
dynamics from when we have fifteen or eighteen. And it made a huge difference
in how you approach them as individuals. You couldn't talk to them at length and
so you had to treat them as groups. So that may have changed. And I think the
times changed. There wasn't as much interest in sympathy toward an
independent way of thinking and striking out on your own is there was initially. So
probably a whole bunch of influences put together changed it radically for me and
I found my interest the last two to three years, particularly the last two, it was very
hard to sustain my own interest in that the teaching became so different that I
started reverting back to more of a disciplinary approach in my own field more of
an art approach that sustained my independent interest because I had lost that
feeling of group. I think the faculty got a little large; was hard to maintain that
cohesiveness amongst faculty. Then we did lose some faculty as programs were
cut. But it seemed a little big at the end and I think maybe we outgrew what was
possible to do in that same sense.
[Barbara]
Okay, we are rolling.
[Menning]
Alright, as I've put a little bit of distance between the close of William James and
my own life, a number of things have passed through my mind as they have
everybody, I'm sure. But there were obviously more than one group within the
college, amongst the faculty, because there were different people coming from
different kinds of backgrounds that had different experiences and they tended to
cluster somewhat because it's only natural that you speak and commiserate with
people and have a similar background and a basic understanding in the same
way. And so, there were a group obviously that were centered around somewhat
the arts, or at least a more applied way of doing things, and sometimes they were
technological way, sometimes there are simply practical ways of getting things
done. And then there were people who did a lot of the thinking and the reading
and sometimes we didn't always agree and we tend to find a schism I think
between two point of view very often and how to approach different issues within
the college. And those are always interesting times for me, all the way through to
college, but in hindsight as I look back on that; I've thought about the fact that I
learned an enormous amount being a faculty member and this kind of college,
perhaps more than I contributed, although that isn't the right way to say it.
[Menning]
But I had to stretch and reached to learn from the frame of reference of others
�where they were coming from. I had to read some other books I had to look for
the philosophy and understanding of what we were about, and I didn't have a
similar thing to contribute in a way that seem to fit the discipline of the arts is kind
of a singular process and as I tried to enter that world again, the one thing that
has struck me and sometimes with a certain amount of anger and resentment
and then sometimes the feeling well we choose a life course and it takes is on a
route and then we accept what we getting and then we change back again sort of
a live and let live attitude. I oscillate between being somewhat angry and its okay
type of attitude that the growth that I experienced didn't take me down my
professional path very much. It took me in a sideways way where I learned an
awful lot of things. I read a lot of books, learn how to work with people that were
very different from myself, learn how to appreciate their values and what they
had to contribute. I'm not sure it was always mutual, and it took a ten-year hunk
out of my professional life in terms of my own growth as an artist. And now that
I'm reentering that world again, I find that frustrating, and sometimes threatening,
and the anger builds because I didn't maintain the contact with my field that I
wish I hadn't done in hindsight. It didn't seem important in the first few years. The
rush of building a college was very strong. The excitement of integrating the need
to talk a lot with other people and why we were going to do it this way and that
way and work out some systems and build these classes seemed so all
consuming that I lost personal side of my own goals. And then I began to find
them again, but I didn't have an easy access route to affecting those. I didn't
have a studio space. There was no academic support in the college for me to do
my thing. I noticed that in particular when it was time for me to take my
sabbatical, there was no money for me and the excuse was that I hadn't been
doing my thing and therefore I didn't get to have money to do my thing. It was
sort of like they haves got and the have nots didn't get, you know. And I felt
somewhat cheated because I had done all these things for the college, for
William James, the greater good, thousands of hours of countless committee
work. And yet there wasn't fifty dollars in the budget for my own artwork based on
the ground that I had and stay current. And I've thought about that and I thought
that was unfair to this day, but I wish that I had stayed current and in hindsight I
would have tried to find a way and maybe insisted on it. If there had been any
other way to do the college I think that would be the major thing I would like to
see change, would be to have some way that would insist that the faculty stayed
current part of their own field so that they didn't lose that. And that might have
retained the excitement for me, to bring that back into the college and into the
mix. Maybe I went dry. Maybe we all went dry. The times were definitely different
toward the end. But the initial excitement was lost, and when I came to the
college I was fresh from a large body of work, my own personal was high, I
wanted to share all that wonderful stuff with everybody. But then I wasn't doing it
and after four, five years of not doing it there's nothing left to share.
[Menning]
I think I had given all that was inside of me and then it got kind of flat and I really
�had to work to sustain it, and I guess that's for my teaching changed. The
students were changing. We were all changing and the times are changing. But I
would like to have done more with my work. I wish that the college had then
sustained our own professional work now. They arrange for studio spaces for the
College of Arts and Sciences Art faculty. That should have been done for the Arts
and Media faculty. That we should have been given studio spaces. The adequate
funding, recognition for work. That should've been done for everyone. We should
have been encouraged to go to conferences, exhibit our work, retain the
professional identity in our field. And that maybe would have made a major
difference. It might've been the difference between the college closing and I don't
know, there's so many intangibles there, but it certainly I think would have given
me a sense of self-worth that was starting to wane toward the end because
ourselves got so entangled up in the whole that was hard to find us. I had a hard
time finding me in the end. And I guess that's why my own interest started to lag
and that I started to seek way to find me again, which was to naturally revert
back to where I felt strong in the beginning was in my own field. And that's both
good and bad, you know there's not a clear-cut run answer to that. But now that
I'm back there I feel whole again. I still have things to share that I can share with
other people and like to do that. But somehow there was no balance at that time.
And maybe that was the one failing aspect of the whole endeavor was that we
went overboard trying to build this thing and then they maybe ten years wasn't
long enough for us to have the bounce back time and then to come back to the
middle and level off at some point. We got cut off for whatever reasons maybe a
little bit too soon.
�
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William James College Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley.
Date
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1984
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
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Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
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GV016-16
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Oral History
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GV016-16_GVSU_16_Menning
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Menning, Dahleen
Date
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1984
Title
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Dahleen Menning interview (1 of 2, video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Dahleen Menning by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Dahleen Menning was a faculty member of William James College who taught studio art and developmental art. In this interview, Dahleen discusses her overall experience being a part of the William James community and her most memorable moments including teaching a developmental art course and the growing student interest in Art Therapy within the Arts and Media concentration. This interview is part 1 of 2 for Dahleen Menning.
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Subject
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Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Art Study and teaching
Art therapy
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7962b21f3a15519a3b68f8f811286896.mp4
5d202f75883c15c76b0e22bcbebad4dc
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c285beec6f8420828ed242015cf83a9e.pdf
e25b52bb7f9e3ed342ed743fa74286c2
PDF Text
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William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos
Interviewee: Dahleen Menning
Date: 1984
Part: 2 of 2
[Barbara]
We are rolling. So nice. Such a nice shot. Anyway, we are rolling [Inaudible].
[Menning]
Okay, I thought a lot about whether or not we gave the students a quality
education. And I think we gave a lot of them very good education. I think we get a
lot of them a minimum education. But I'm not sure that that's different from any
other kind of college. And that’s the thing that I keep coming back to. And I think
about what we gave our students and I think about what I got from a very
important major university traditional education, although I didn't have a liberal
arts education, I had a very specialized art education but I had their traditional
distribution stuff. I also learned some intangible things from my university
situation that weren't planned, that taught me more than the things that were
planned. And I thought about that many times, that the things that had happened
to me, particularly as a graduate student, that were not supposed to be part of
the program but taught me coping skills that made it possible maybe for me to
even teach at a place like William James. And I think that we gave students a lot
of coping skills that were kind of side by side to coursework that they probably
drew and maybe continue to draw on more in some ways because life is like that
and the real world isn’t [?] a place as a university or campus settings. And so, I
think of students struggling to help organize the college, and early on particularly
struggling to fight for a course they wanted, struggling to argue their program
through, in some instances, and try to defend why it was worthwhile for them.
Those probably were good experiences for students. I think that we let some
through that were non-thinkers. But they get through every place, even Harvard
has some of those, I think, there's people I guess with a minimum they can do,
and manage to, you know, pass things at the minimum level. So, every place has
students that can do the least possible. We certainly had some. But I think that
we were a challenge to students, particularly when they came to graduate. I are
used to tease them, and still do, there's a few that are still finishing up this last
year, that just to get out was the real test. If they can get their program approved
and they can write about it intelligently that in spite of all. And that was sort of an
extracurricular academic activity. It wasn't part of a regular course in spite of the
fact we tried those various courses about building your program. I can't
remember what they're called now, so that obviously didn't stick in my mind that
well. But we did try to make students write something about their program and
the ones who really struggled with that I think learn some things that were
intangible that probably serve them well. And the fact that they had to get out
there and maybe generate their own internship, or they actually were part of
�council and that they learned how to argue a point and present their case and
hold their own against some fairly strong voices that were articulate. They
learned coping skills and how to work with people that were different from
themselves. And when I take a look at some of those former graduates, I think,
"Wow!"
[Menning]
Those people are doing well in the world and what is an education? And then we
start to talk about deep philosophical things. Is it a mere smattering in a
smorgasbord way of a certain amount of history, philosophy, English, all of those
things? Or is it really learning how to learn, and enjoying what you're learning,
and then in life you get around to it in turn as you begin to discover what you
want to learn. Which was part of the initial goal of the college was that you would
learn what you needed to learn. Well, we never really quite had time for that in
four years. It didn't seem that it was time to learn something and then discover
that what you needed to go forward you had to go back and learn this. That most
students needed to progress through much more quickly and in a more orderly
fashion. But that's how life is and that we all continue to learn things that seem
important to us because of what we bring to it at that time and I think that a lot of
those students that we graduated learned that. They learned that learning was
fun, that there was an exhilaration to learning, that it had work attached to it, on
occasion, for some people. And that was the value. And I think that because the
systems were very loose there were a lot of people who escaped. And we let
them escape and sometimes we had a few good arguments about some of them,
and there were tears in the hall, and a few loud voices and things over a few of
them. But those seem to be the exceptions. I think that by and large we gave a
good education to the majority of our students. I would say probably seventy
percent got probably a more personal considered education by teachers who
cared about them in person, rather than them as a group, who knew their names
personally, who can call their name in the hall when they met them going down a
hall, and they had a more personal interaction with all of your faculty than they
probably would have had in almost any other setting I can think of, other than a
few similar alternative colleges around the country, on our campus, and
elsewhere. That they had to maybe even confront the fact that we did know who
they were in class. They couldn't hide behind a number, or seat, or an alphabet
alphabetized row. That they were responsible and even though they didn't do
well sometimes and they knew they weren't doing well, they knew that we knew
it. It wasn't something they can escape exactly, so they had to own up. There
was a certain honesty and fessing up for what was accomplished or what wasn't
accomplished. And I think that was good. Even when we didn't somehow strike
the right number with the right personal time, because we didn't, clearly. And
toward the end I thought that the students, in general while they wanted to learn,
they had a different attitude about what learning was about. And the whole thing
changed quite radically there. Not just in the courses and in my own teaching, but
in my opinion, in the advertising and in the way that we set up the programs. We
�started to really pin the stuff down. What they had to study, some of which was
good and some of which wasn't. And I think in some cases it was good because
students needed that and in other cases it probably damaged a few. And so, I
think on both sides there were good things and bad things.
[Menning]
But I think certainly the education, in my opinion, would measure up to almost
anywhere, particularly for the student who grasped it for themselves took hold.
[Barbara]
If you had to sum up what made James in just a sentence or so…?
[Menning]
[Laughter] If I have to do anything in a sentence or so I'm sunk. When I think
about uniqueness, as a college, I guess independence is the word that keeps
reoccurring in my mind. Of all the good things that happened, the best thing
happened when people took things into their own hands and then did it. Now
both on the part of students and on the part of faculty that occasionally caused
some abrasion and some fireworks but things got done for that individual. And
the independence and then generated on the part of everyone built a better
person, in my opinion, and I keep thinking about that. Integration was another
one of the buzzwords that flew around a lot. But I like the idea that people took
initiative, and they did things on their own and they didn't always ask first if they
could, they just assumed that it was alright, and they went ahead and they tried
things. That wasn't a sentence or two but that's… I think that's what sticks.
[Barbara]
Okay [Inaudible].
[Menning]
I think one of the exhilarating things for me personally that I think contributed to a
good education to students and to all of the good things that came out of William
James was for me and my life was the first time that I had ever encountered a
whole batch, a lot, more than one or two professional women altogether
contributing to the whole in a way that really made a profound difference. In all of
my undergraduate years as I thought back, I had only encountered three women
faculty in the entire time none of which had a profound effect on my life. I didn't
happen to study under them because of their discipline wasn't my choice. So, I
only have them as a cursory experience. And I had never experienced a place
where women were major part of anything, and all of a sudden, and perhaps this
is where I got caught up for myself to, was a chance to actually do something
and believe that I could do it, and that no one else bothered to tell me I couldn't,
and nobody suggested that I couldn't. In fact, everybody said, "Well, of course
you can." And that was a very heady time, I think, I had enormous respect for the
professional expertise that all of those women faculty brought. And even thought
I didn't get to know all them well, some of them left shortly and went on other
things, there was a time there where you really felt that it was equal it was a
totally egalitarian time where everybody's ideas count equally. It didn't matter
who you were and it there was not an "old-boy" network that you somehow have
�to plug into first. And that was one of the most exciting times. And I think that
contributed to the students. The women students saw role models.
[Menning]
The men students saw that women were equals in this mix, and so they gave you
due respect. And the attitudes were different and I noticed that immediately. And
since the end of William James I have noticed a change away from that. Not in
my own particular setting as much as I have noticed that around campus and
other places, and I can see that that really is a very unusual situation. I think that
is one of the exciting things that came out of William James. It had that wonderful
sharing.
[Barbara]
Start take.
[Menning]
I think probably the one really seriously negative thing that was a thorn in my side
all the way through was the tension between the two groups of faculty that I
alluded to a little bit earlier. The, I think, the Arts and Media faculty particularly as
a group, although didn't include all of them actually, but the people in that group
who made things and who are very pragmatically oriented, and then there were
other groups of people, the other body of faculty who tended to not make things
and didn't have that as their experience, but they read things and wrote things.
And we approach life differently. We approached organization differently. We
approach things differently. And I never ever felt the kind of respect from the
group of faculty that read and wrote things that I felt I should have an artist
person who made things. That came out a number of instances different tilts that
we had by and large. I think it affected how we resolved things in the college.
Those two groups would very often line up on different sides of the issue. We
could’ve almost expected to never agree on certain kinds of things. And
consequently, may have contributed to the ending of the college or may not
have. Tension is dynamic and wonderful in certain instances and then it's just
destructive and I think that it had its destructive moments and then it had some
dynamic excitement to it at that point. And so, it was both bad and good but we
didn't ever resolve how to be different together and I wish we had.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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William James College Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
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GV016-16
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video/mp4
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eng
Oral History
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GV016-16_GVSU_17_Menning
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Menning, Dahleen
Date
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1984
Title
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Dahleen Menning interview (2 of 2, video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Dahleen Menning by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Dahleen Menning was a faculty member of William James College who taught studio art and developmental art. In this interview, Dahleen discusses the quality of education students received in William James College, the independent spirit that unified the community, and the personal impact of having strong female representation within the college. This interview is part 2 of 2 for Dahleen Menning.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Women in higher education
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0dbcd9eb2f3a0905003b937456a2e1ef.mp4
e3b91bd830b4f3f8a8cdb18cff034451
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/390893e8e36e05f242f6226cee559100.pdf
26ab1abf35dae767206f34371d3c7a03
PDF Text
Text
William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos
Interviewee: David Rathbun
Date: 1984
[Barbara]
… talking about three things that stuck out in your mind.
[Rathbun]
Two or three things. I came to William James in 1981, so I didn't have much time
in William James. But my first recollection: my first council meeting. I sat down in
the skylight room with this group of people, most of whom I didn't know yet, and
during that meeting there was a debate between Robert Mayberry and Steven
Rowe in which the two men were arguing: Socrates versus Aristotle. And I
thought to myself: "My God! Someone still cares about this stuff." And I
remember going home and carrying on a good part of the evening about what an
incredible place this must be where faculty people, instead of sitting and
bickering about small, petty stuff, argued from real philosophic basis. What an
incredible place. That's one of my favorite memories of William James and one of
my earliest memories of William James. I also remember the ordeal of
interviewing for the position here. I think my first meeting was at eight o'clock with
Glenn Niemeyer and I talked to people the entire day and the entire evening and
finally finished with Forrest Armstrong at one thirty the next morning. Pretty
incredible ordeal. Makes a lot of sense as I got another place in retrospect.
Another real strong memory in my mind, and again it’s a fairly early meeting, was
in a PCC meeting in which we we're discussing the changes in the photographic
curriculum. And the facility needs through [?] needs. And I remember there was a
room in the basement which was in question about who ought to use it and
clearly the film and video people needed for room, clearly the photography
people needed the room. And Deanna and Barb said: "We will give up that room.
You need more than we do." And it was a kind of generosity again I had not
encountered at any other institution I had taught in. The ability to put aside one's
self-interest, one’s immediate needs, in the interest of the larger program. I was
impressed. I hadn't encountered that.
[Barbara]
Let me stop your train of thought slightly while I check everything because I
couldn't [inaudible]. Let me zoom in on you a little bit and then we go on. If it’s not
interrupting you too much, I would like to know why you think this was all so
different. Don't answer yet because I have to get the shot… Right now, I have the
shot.
[Rathbun]
Okay, in the past, at the Institute of Design, which is a pretty remarkable place.
decisions were made on the basis of politics. They were made on the basis of
narrowly defined self-interest. Your sense from beginning to end was that you
better be prepared to scramble and scrap for everything you were going to get for
�your program because nobody was going to give it to you. As a result, there was
an attitude and the feeling among the faculty of distrust, of suspicion, people
were constantly tailoring their behaviors and looking over the shoulders to make
sure the right people are watching and that the wrong people one right behind
them.
[Rathbun]
I don't recall ever sensing that at William James and I think for me it was one of
the extraordinary aspects of working with a group of people that were the faculty
and the last two years of William James. The sense that people really cared
about what somebody else was doing. That they wanted to share and making it
good. That they were willing to put time and energy and sometimes give up
things that they need is in order for something else good to happen. It was not
my experience at the Institute of Design it was a very different kind of faculty.
People who were not very generous particularly with the resources, or with their
time, with their giving to students even.
[Barbara]
But there must have been structural reasons for all this. What structural reasons
can you analyze?
[Rathbun]
Well, I think one of the things that made William James such a delightful place,
for faculty, was that it really was not a competitive environment in the sense that
we had to compete with each other to succeed either within our programs or
within the institution. The fact that we didn't have merit raises, the fact that the
review process was not punitive but was rather something that was intended to
help us understand each other and to grow with each other. The fact that we met
weekly in faculty meetings, that we knew each other and we knew what was
going on that we had some control over our destiny in this building. I think all
those were important aspects of that feeling of collegiality and community. That is
not that way in very many places. For me it was probably the most extraordinary
teaching experience I've had the two years that William James was here. The
freedom to dream, the freedom to pursue the dreams, the freedom to share your
dreams with colleagues, the willingness of colleagues to dream with you, to be a
little bit crazy at times when it was appropriate to be crazy. The sense that things
were possible, and it that was good to pursue those possibilities. It was a feeling
that pervaded this place. God knows it was no joy to come to council meetings
every Friday morning. There were a number of times I would prefer to be sailing
around the lake or something. But it was never really a problem to come to those
meetings because we were doing something. We were making decisions. We
were assuming the responsibility and we were doing a pretty damn good thing
with our programs.
[Barbara]
Let me change the [inaudible]. Wonderful, very clear. Very clear. Very Clear!
You're dark on one side your face but I like it. You know what I mean? It’s not
dark, I like the naturalness.
�[Rathbun]
Now, I'm not sure, maybe you should ask me some questions, if you want more
specific kinds of things.
[Barbara]
You were very specific then. I pushed a little on your work.
[Rathbun]
Because those are… that was the sort of thing I was thinking about saying was
those two events, the room generosity from you and Diana. I don't remember the
first one now. It’s a good thing you're taping this. And then just the sort of overall
sense of what an incredible thing this place was.
[Barbara]
There are two things that I'd like to ask on the basis of what you said already.
You said you taught very well and it’s not clear to me why one would teach
better. I can understand why one would be happier as an individual. But why
teach better?
[Rathbun]
If you think that being happy as an individual has nothing to do with teaching well
– it has everything in the world to do with teaching well. At the Institute of Design,
I never felt support particularly from colleagues or from the administration. That
began to chip away and erode my commitment to the place. The more times I
was worked over, the less excited I became, and the more I had to turn to purely
an internal discipline to keep things going well. And I did that, but it was not with
great effort. The feeling of support of collegiality, of sharing both a destiny and
also shaping that destiny was absolutely vital to feeling good about teaching and
being here and being with students.
[Barbara]
Were students different? We just have a different breed of students here.
[Rathbun]
Its apples and oranges. It's difficult to compare. We're talking on one hand about
a very expensive private school in Chicago that draws a national constituency of
generally wealthy and well-educated students. As opposed to a state college that
draws essentially from one area within the state. But the differences I think
ultimately are sort of superficial. They have remedies. The biggest difference was
simply one of experience and visual literacy Those kids in Chicago have seen a
lot and the kids initially here haven't seen very much. Even allusions to people as
like Edward Weston drew blank stares when I arrived here. It was changing. The
William James students were different in the sense that they were much more
aware of what they were up to with their educations, I think, for the most part. I
remember when, in the last year of William James, when there was all this
rumors and talk and almost every day brought a new scenario of what the
reorganization was going to be like. I remember that Provost Niemeyer appeared
at a student forum in the Campus Center and there were probably a couple of
hundred students who were there. It was interesting to me as I looked around the
room that good percentage, perhaps the majority of those students, were William
�James students and that the questions that were being asked the hard questions,
and the appropriate, questions were coming almost uniformly from William
James students. In that respect I think William James is doing something very
well for students, making them understand that they had responsibility for their
education.
[Rathbun]
That they had the right to ask questions and to expect answers about their
educational experience and about what was going on. And they were asking
pretty intelligent questions and Niemeyer wasn't entirely happy about that. He
squirmed a lot. He clearly wasn't pleased with some of the questions that were
being asked. But it occurred to me and watching that whole thing transpire: that if
really interested in an educational experience for students in which they
understand that they have control over their lives was working here, he should
have been tickled that those people were asking those kinds of questions,
because it meant that their education was working.
[Barbara]
Do you remember what they were asking?
[Rathbun]
I don't remember the specific questions, Barb, I just remember that during that
whole discussion the questions and seem to be right on the mark, that seem to
be the right questions that students ought to be asking, the William James
students were asking. And it was not entirely comfortable for the administration to
have to try to answer those questions. But it was precisely an indication of
success in the educational experiences that students were having here.
[Barbara]
Let me ask you this but let me change the shot and zoom. Woah, that's darker
zooming in. Okay, good. I want to ask you: this is all very well to talk about how
we taught them to ask the questions, but it didn't save us. What could have
saved us, or what was your experience in the process of closing James?
[Rathbun]
Well, it's all too easy in retrospect to understand that nothing could have saved
us, short of moving the school somewhere else. And it's hard for me to really
understand how all of that transpired Barb because I wasn't here during most of
William James. I had really sort of one good year and then the second year,
which was the last year of William James, everything was in turmoil and up in the
air. I seriously doubt that there was anything significant the faculty could have
done, or the students could have done. I think the decision was made, I think it
was simply a matter of how to implement the decision and dissolve the units. And
I think after that happened the degree to which there was hostility, it was like
someone turn on the tap, it was like packs of dogs were being held at bay and
suddenly been released and it seems so unnecessary.
[Barbara]
Tell me, that's too vague, I don't know what you mean.
�[Rathbun]
Well, the attempt in an early discussion in the School of Communications to
eradicate all evidence of William James having been in Lake Superior Hall. The
suggestion on the part of some faculty from a previous unit that the portrait of
William James be painted over with post-haste, with great haste. That's the right
way to say that.
[Rathbun]
The articles that appeared in the Lanthorn characterizing William James’
students and faculty as some sort of malcontents. Things which under a healthy
old division probably would not have been printed suddenly were popping up all
over the place. It seems clear to me that the decision was made and it was only a
matter of how to work it out with the least damage from their perspective.
[Barbara]
Do you see any organizational or other holdovers from James in the new
structure?
[Rathbun]
Well, I don't see very many and I'm so busy that it's hard for me to look very far
away. And I thinks that's one of the problems of the new structure. Certainly, we
don't have the kinds of collegial possibilities that we used to have. I think it's clear
that those holdovers or those instances where the William James philosophy
carries on are to be found in individuals, and mostly individuals that were in
James, although it is interesting that there are other faculty who continue to be
sympathetic and espouse certain ideas. And I'm not, again… because I wasn't a
part of William James from the beginning and for years and years and years, I
don't know whether I am really Jamesian in the sense of wearing a badge. I think
that I'm interested in intelligent educational experiences for students. I don't think
of myself as trying to teach them something. I think of myself as a fellow traveler
with them. I think of myself as someone who is growing with them, and what I try
to do is provide environments and experiences which hopefully allow the
students to learn something. And I think that maybe is a part of what William
James College was about at its best. I think it's just damn good teaching and I
think wherever people are teaching in that kind of way, where they understand
that they really are involved in this with students and perhaps at best what we
can do is try to create a series of experiences from which students can learn
something. And I think that's living. I think it continues to live. But I don't think
you're going to find it in any particular unit; I think your going to have to look at
individual people.
[Barbara]
I'm out of questions. Do you have anything else to say?
[Rathbun]
I don't think so. I mean, I can stop at this point.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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William James College Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley.
Date
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1984
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
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Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
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GV016-16
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
Oral History
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GV016-16_GVSU_15_Rathbun
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Rathbun, David
Date
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1984
Title
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David Rathbun interview (video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with David Rathbun by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. David Rathbun was a faculty member in William James College who taught photography in the Arts and Media program, and was a longtime professor and founder of GVSU's photography program. In this interview, David discusses how he started his journey with William James College in 1981, his initial impressions of the WJC community, and the extraordinary experience he had being a member of its faculty. This interview is part 1 of 1 for David Rathbun.
Contributor
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Subject
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Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
College environment
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/56647999b9f4cbdb4332832a55e5dfaa.mp4
6ad6be9be8fe13dee38b7a79a3e4752c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fcd18884ee0436786d5ff2fc5f9248db.pdf
199ab49ab84f708d8f4e7f348944b43e
PDF Text
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William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos
Interviewee: Deanna Morse
Date: 1984
Part: 1 of 2
[Barbara]
Okay, if you would just start out, wherever you want, talking about the difference
of teaching at a conventional situation and teaching at William James.
[Morse]
Well, one thing for me is the observation about studying both places because I
studied at a conventional school and then I got my master’s degree from
Goddard. And for me the difference between the two was like night and day.
Because what I found in conventional school was that a lot of the emphasis is on
grades and how one would perform. And at Goddard a lot of the feeling was what
you can do with that… whatever the learning is. And I guess I've seen that at
Grand Valley, too. The most obvious thing for me is that when I give students…
after students turn in films, I write comments to them on their films, you know,
with long comments… a page or two. And what would happen at William James
is people would read my comments, and they would take it in, and they would
respond to it. And in grade situations, what I find, is that people immediately turn
to the last part of it, see what their grade is, and then factor all those comments,
you know, on the basis of what that letter grade was. And to me that's the least
important part of the learning. The important part is the feedback. But what I find
students do is they just look at the grade. And even some really good students in
this term, in fact, came to me and said: "Well it's getting near the end of the term
and I wonder how much, you know, how much my grade would go up if I redid
this project." And it's totally unimportant what the grade would go out. The real
important thing is how well they can do the project. But the incentive to do it well
seems to be not there in the graded system.
[Barbara]
But that's the opposite from what people who advocate grades… what most
people say. They say you have to have grades or else people won’t work.
[Morse]
No, I didn't think that was true at all. At James what happened was people
worked because then they enjoyed the work and it had nothing to do with how
you evaluated that work, in terms of A. B, C, D, or F. But they did the work until
they felt the work was right. And in the graded system I find people will say: "Well
I was only a C student in high school, so I don't have to do any better than a C
now." Or: "I was only a B student in high school, so I’m satisfied with a B." Or: "I
was only a D student in high school, I'm satisfied with a D." And then don't try to
make themselves better. And that for me has been the biggest frustration… is
moving back to grades.
�[Barbara]
Okay. What other differences in teaching are there that seem important? If there
are any… excuse me.
[Morse]
Besides the grades? The grades is the big one, for me. The other stuff… it's
harder for me because I always thought James' requirements of the milestone
were a little wacky anyway. And I never quite got a sense of what a student had
to do to complete their study plan. And I feel, hearing Richard, I feel part of the
difference is really a difference of a nontraditional school within a larger structure
versus a school that's nontraditional all the way through. I don't think those
questions come up at a place like Goddard or a place like Evergreen. But within
William James what happened was it seemed like people trying to sort of mold
the alternative ed. to make it fit into what people could see as parallel to
traditional requirements. So that part of it to me hasn't been a real difficulty. But
the grade/non-graded aspect has been the biggest one. And the fact that at
James the nature of the students were different. We got people that were older
and were coming back that really wanted to learn this area and now it just seems
like we're getting a lot of eighteen-year-olds that just want to go to college and
someone told them that film was interesting and they're studying it. And a lot of
that kind of thing.
[Barbara]
What would you say, in your experience at James, was the thing that was most
valuable to you or to, you know, the most valuable to the universe? What was the
best thing about being there?
[Morse]
Well, I think the feeling that you were participating in something that was looking
for answers, rather than just fitting into a structure that people accept as the norm
for no apparent reason for it. That's really for me… and there's no reason that we
should accept the fact that traditional education is the answer. It, you know, just a
thing… "Well, I did it, so other people should too" or something like that. It has
nothing to do with really questioning what students need to know or what
students need to learn. It just seems to me that traditional education is based on
tradition, basically. And it just sort of comes out of that need of knowledge.
Whereas at James what people were doing was saying: "Maybe there is a
different way to approach education, what would that way be?" And everyone
was sort of seeking that answer. And participating in that environment was the
most important overriding aspect of what made it special to me.
[Barbara]
I think that's a wonderful answer, because I agree with it; however, I wonder if
there's something… a specific manifestation of the kind of things we were doing
that you could also mention. That's an attitudinal one, and I agree – it’s basic –
but is there something we did in classes, or in council, or something, that you can
mention that you really miss now or that you think made things work? Because
you were in such a pragmatic place, it wasn't just attitude, things were worked
�out.
[Morse]
I don't know. I think it really, for me, it was just that sort of overriding attitude
which manifests itself in counsel and all the discussions. And I remember sitting
in rooms, and looking around, and saying: "People have such a variety of
attitudes and opinions about things. I can look at these people. I can see their
opinions, I can see their attitudes, I can see how they manifest, I can accept their
different viewpoints as all being valid.” And somehow, within this new system,
you don't have that same… it's not that same sort of flexibility towards accepting
that there are different approaches. That's really… it's very fundamental and
basic.
[Barbara]
Do you think we failed?
[Morse]
Oh no, no. And I get real angry when people say that the college was an
experiment because to me the sort of connotation of that is: if it is no longer
existing and it was an experiment, an experiment failed. And I just don't buy that
at all. And I always tend to jump on people or call in, you know, when people say
that it was an experiment and it failed and that's why it's no longer there. That
wasn't it at all anymore.
[Barbara]
Why isn't it any longer there?
[Morse]
I'm not totally sure why it wasn't there. In fact, when I came it seemed like the
college was on the verge of folding. I remember the first faculty meeting that I
came to, Adrian started the meeting by saying: "If we make it through the year,
we'll be glad." And I went up to Adrian at the break and I said: "If this is true, why
am I here?" You know? I mean why did I bother coming to school that's already
on the decline? And I guess… I don't know how many years. Let’s see, I've been
at Grand Valley five. It must have lasted about three years after that… after I
came.
[Barbara]
What year was that?
[Morse]
Seventy-nine when I came. When did it close?
[Barbara]
Eighty-one.
[Morse]
Eighty-one. So yeah, it was just two years. Not long.
[Barbara]
And that was supposedly the bad two years.
[Morse]
I think I missed the hay-day of the college and I think I did come in at the tail end
and the part when I came in was… I was hired in the week that they took
�computers and management out and all that stuff. And TJC was closed. The day
that I interviewed I think they announced that TJC would be closed, so I came at
a real down time for it. But I remember when I went back to Denver after the
interview, I knew that I would take the job if it was offered because I knew that
working in this place would be a once-in-a-lifetime type of opportunity. And, you
know, that was why I came.
[Barbara]
What was the thing that didn't work most, in your experience? What was the
worst thing?
[Morse]
At James?
[Barbara]
Yeah.
[Morse]
I had the most problem with study plans, and I always felt that there was some
sort of a hidden agenda to what would be expected on the study plans. And I
remember having many long debates with Barry Castro, and other people, about
why we just didn't articulate what we were looking for on study plans because it
seems like we were. And that was the biggest area of dissatisfaction for me with
students… was trying to help them design a study plan that I felt other people
would accept. That was my biggest problem.
[Barbara]
Why do you think they closed us?
[Morse]
I don't know. I think that… I'm not real sure. I don't think it was politically
advantageous for them to keep the college open because they had gotten a lot of
bad press in the community and people in the community didn't understand – not
so much with James but with TJC. And they put James, sort of, into the same
ballpark as TJC. It's alternative ed.; it doesn't make sense. We can't articulate it.
We can't say in one sentence what it is at the college, what it means. So, I think
that was probably why it was closed. But it's not totally clear to me why it was
closed. It's also, in some ways, not clear to me why it held on as long as it did.
[Barbara]
You came here and felt very comfortable here. Had you read a lot of William
James philosophy?
[Morse]
No, no I didn't know anything about William James.
[Barbara]
Why do you think you felt so comfortable here?
[Morse]
Well, I think that my own background in alternative ed. had the most to do with it.
What happened to me was that I went to an undergraduate school that was very
traditional and when I graduated with my bachelor's degree, I said that there was
no way that I would go on for, you know…
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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William James College Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Identifier
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GV016-16
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Oral History
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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GV016-16_GVSU_39_Morse
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Morse, Deanna
Date
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1984
Title
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Deanna Morse interview (1 of 2, video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Deanna Morse by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Deanna Morse was an Arts and Media faculty member in William James College from 1979 to 1981. In this interview, Deanna discusses the differences in teaching at William James College and what she valued most about being a part of its community. This interview is part 1 of 2 for Deanna Morse.
Contributor
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3332e020fc383ca7fb5d778ccebdd3fc.mp4
f06de20bdc516c26989c8ee847ba7b53
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e224af6b706927cbd127bc6da306d990.pdf
647876f24c2708041c0b6c041f1d7bb6
PDF Text
Text
William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos
Interviewee: Deanna Morse
Date: 1984
Part: 2 of 2
[Morse]
So, you're going to ask me about the students?
[Barbara]
Yeah!
[Morse]
The qualities of the William James students that you don't see…?
[Barbara]
Or what kind of quality did we really appreciate in some of the people?
[Morse]
Well, I think one of the things about William James students was that they knew
why they were there – and they were there to learn. And my feeling is that some
of the students that are there now don't know exactly why they are except that it's
a transition point between college and something else… life elsewhere. The
qualities that I saw in people were sort of self-initiative, willing to follow things
through, willing to take risks, willingness to fail, and a desire to really do what it
took to get the job done. Which in many times meant a lot of work and a lot of
redoing. And I find that part of the grading systems, I think, is what keeps people
from being willing to do that. And I was really surprised… this term I used the
technique of giving people very low grades with the idea that they would then
redo their work to get the higher grades. And it surprised me that in several
cases people accepted their low grade and just stopped right there. They
accepted Ds, they accepted D minuses, they accepted C minuses and Fs. And
they just said: "Well that's what I'm used to getting in education." And, you know,
that's it and then didn't redo the work. Even with my constant prodding saying: "I
believe that you have something good there. It's worth redoing. I believe your
tape, you know, could use some re-editing, some restructuring." And still people
just said: "Well, I'll accept that grade." And I didn't hear that in James. In James it
seemed like people were more willing to continue redoing the work. Also, though,
I think part of it is the fact that students are juggling six or seven classes right
now, too. And what they're learning from education is…I don't think that they’re
real-life skills particularly. What people are learning is what they need to do to get
the minimum level grades in all of their classes and I really don't see where that
translates into real life and learning later on. I had the same kind experience in
my own undergraduate experience, and I don't see where that has taught me
anything in adult life. I mean, I don't have that kind of experience in jobs where I
go into a job and I say: "What's the minimum that I can do to get this paycheck?"
It's just not the way that it works in the real world. Yet, in education that's
�something that we teach our students is what you have to do to get the minimum
grades to get by. And the students at their own level – whether the minimum
grades are a B, an A, or a C – and they do whatever it takes to get to that level,
just to get by.
[Barbara]
How do you motivate them? What makes the miraculous change? Why don't they
just do the minimum to pass a pass/ fail system? Which is what we had. I mean
everybody always said that's what's wrong with a pass/fail system. They'll all just
do the minimum.
[Morse]
That just wasn't my experience that people would do the minimum. It seemed to
me that something about not labeling it as C, D, F, B, A… something about not
having that label ever put on it made people strive for excellence. And, also, in
the pass/fail system, you could require people to redo. And I guess you can in a
graded system, too, but somehow it doesn't seem to fit as well as it did in the
non-graded structure.
[Barbara]
What else… comes after a terrific interview question?
[Morse]
Well, the other thing that I guess I was saying before the tape ran out about my
own education… which I understand some of the students now, which is that you
do in an educational situation where you are in control of what you're doing. What
you get is this sort of a self-affirming kind of feeling that then makes you want to
work. And, for me, my graduate experience had that effect on me. Going to
Goddard college – which was a similar experience to James – where you were
able to define what it is that you felt was important to you, and then you had
guidance from an instructor that would lead you on some roads or some paths to
reaching whatever that goal was that you determine. Well, you feel then that you
are the person that's responsible for your education. And within the more
traditional educational structures it's hard to get that because instead it's more an
assembly line in a factory or something like that; where you're trying to tell people
I've packaged some information which I feel is important and you need to
process that information to get out of this course. It's a much different kind of
structure saying: "Come to the course, tell me what you feel like you need to do
in this course, and then I will help you facilitate being able to do that through
taking media production, or art, or whatever the course was.” And you can't just
do that… you can just teach that way in a traditional structure because the
students don't come with the same values and same expectations. If you try to
teach that way now students come in and say: "But I expect you to define what
the activities are, what the studies are for the course." And, of course, when I
define them they're a different set of activities than if they were defined
individually by the students, and their my priorities rather than the student
priorities.
�[Barbara]
It's a combination of two things. I think one is an almost Calvinistic sense that
there's sin, you know, that you can't trust people. Okay? In the conventional
educational. And also, the notion that the knowledge that's being imparted is real
knowledge, you know, in the most Biblical sense. "This is the truth, so you learn
it, kid." As versus saying: "This was the truth, but look at the mess the world is in.
Let's find out together what we can do better."
[Morse]
Right and the students come wanting to learn what that truth is. They want to
learn: "What are the things that I must know to get a job." Whereas what we
teach them are more strategies to facilitate them once they've decided what the
job is that they want to get. I mean it's sort of different… it seems in some ways
like it's the same, but it's not, for it. I mean if someone comes and they say: "I
want to learn media because I'm interested in working in the health care
professions." Then you teach the media to try to help and reach that goal. If
someone comes and says: "I want to learn media because my high school
teacher told me that it might be an interesting thing for me to do." It's just a
different… you know, you're talking on a whole different level of approach of
education. The students come with different expectations.
[Barbara]
Can you do an introduction of yourself using your name, please?
[Morse]
Well, yes. I'm Deanna Morse and I came to William James in 1979. And before
that I had done artist in the schools work for about four years and had gotten my
master’s degree through Goddard College – which is an alternative school in
Vermont – and had done commercial production work before them.
[Barbara]
Can you name the students that you feel the proudest of in all these years?
[Morse]
Well, it's hard to name just one. But some of the people that I feel good about are
some of the recent graduates that I've stayed in touch with like Susie Zach and
Maggie Anareno [?], who are people that are working commercially, locally, and
had a sense of questioning when they came into college and are still questioning,
somewhat, what they're doing working commercially in media. Some of our
current students have a lot of the same qualities and I still feel real good about
them so I don't mean to say that when James closed, you know, it's like a whole
different ballpark. I really don't see a total difference in terms of the number or the
quality of students. But it does seem to me that entering students are coming for
a different reason than they came when they were at James.
[Barbara]
I can think of just one more question right now. When I was interviewing Rose
Willey, she was talking about… she almost got accusatory and she stopped
herself. She said: "The school… one of the explicit goals of the school was to be
change oriented. Future oriented. When real change came, and they tried to
close us down, what did you have, what did you have to teach us?" Do you feel,
�like, guilty because we didn't save the school?
[Morse]
Oh, no. I thought that at the time the college was threatened, the discussions
around the college were really interesting and also reflected the nature of the
college a lot. I remember endless council meetings that we had at that time
where there was discussion of Dick Gottlieb, and some other people, about
moving the college downtown, off campus, you know, this kind of thing. And
there was also, I remember, we had faculty workshops where we talked about
how we would teach using some of the William James philosophies within the
new system. You know that kind of thing. And so, I know that the students
probably felt much differently about it than the instructors. And, also, I think in
some ways and students… I guess the one thing I do feel guilty about is that it
seems to me that at that time some of the instructors, myself included, saw the
change with somewhat of a sense of relief because at least it meant that we
would be moving into what we perceived to be as stable environment. And that
we wouldn't be spending our lives feeling threatened at all times and feeling on
the defensive at all times. And I think some of the students were responding with
anger towards faculty. And I felt a bit like I was one of the people that was
justifiably hit with that anger at that time. Because I just felt that the continued
threats were not worth it, at that point. It seemed to make more sense just to
have the college be closed.
[Barbara]
Do you have anything?
[Inaudible]
Check back in.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
William James College Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Identifier
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GV016-16
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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GV016-16_GVSU_41_Morse
Creator
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Morse, Deanna
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Title
A name given to the resource
Deanna Morse interview (2 of 2, video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Deanna Morse by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Deanna Morse was an Arts and Media faculty member in William James College from 1979 to 1981. In this interview, Deanna discusses the qualities of William James students and her personal journey that led her to teach at WJC, in addition to her final thoughts on the college's closing. This interview is part 2 of 2 for Deanna Morse.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e6fa7c2b14e063475a58ac4f2b970dd5.mp4
4ac98a39910dbe5708d09a3f1bec9bd0
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ff860e7d7305865c01de8cff65b46744.pdf
79ecbaa7e90d2b84379a4ad1204e07fa
PDF Text
Text
William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos
Interviewee: Ginny Gordon
Date: 1984
Part: 1 of 2
[Barbara]
First question being: you were here at the very beginning.
[Gordon]
Uh huh.
[Barbara]
I just want you to talk about what it was like at the very beginning in terms of
starting from scratch.
[Gordon]
Okay. Well, did you want me to talk about how there was the founding
committee. They wanted to add another college. They were into the cluster
college concept and they were going to be five cluster colleges. There was
College of Arts and Sciences, which they were going to get a name, but they
never did. And then Thomas Jefferson, which was well established. And then
college three, which became William James College…
[Barbara]
How did you get faculty for William James College?
[Gordon]
Well, there was the original committee that was Tom Cunningham, Bruce
Loessin [?]… there were about seven people on that and some faculty members
from CAS that were on that committee. And they advertised and the first person
that they hired was Ken Hunter. They hired Robert Mayberry that year, Richard
Joanisse, Dick Paschke, John Mactavish from CAS, Dan Clock who was in TJC
(he was halftime CA, halftime William James). So, there was John, Richard, Dick,
Dan Clock, Ken Hunter, who else? There were five and a half people that first…
Robert Mayberry! Okay, and they came in early August. They all came here.
They started quite early. And then they met and got the groundwork… the
schedule all made out that was published. Of course, then we were on terms, so
classes didn't start till the end of September. Our first two students were Theresa
Paul and Tyree Anderson, and they also worked on the committee. So, then
there was me, five and half faculty, Bruce Loessin [?] and Tyree and Terry Paul.
And the schedule was made up of about probably, I don't know, fifteen or
seventeen classes and admissions office recruited a hundred-and-fifty-two
students that first year.
[Barbara]
What were you promising them that they would come to a new school?
[Gordon]
They were looking for an alternative education. They all had the real pioneer
�spirit. Those first-year students, by the way, have been quite successful in the
world. Most of them have gone to graduate school. Dick Wilson, do you
remember him? Well, he was in that original hundred-and-fifty-two. So, we
started out with a very small, selective, close knit, and we had all the first floor of
Lake Superior Hall. So, we had our own turf. And we met often between classes;
we had like a coffee room and everybody would sit around and quite often after
classes.
[Gordon]
Formally, we had one or two council meetings a week and informally there was
always a lot going on.
[Barbara]
Who went to council meetings?
[Gordon]
Everybody went to council meetings. We had to have them in thirty-four-thirty-six
with the door open; they were usually packed, and they were always open to
everybody.
[Barbara]
What did you talk about?
[Gordon]
We talked about adding new classes, what we were going to add, what the
needs were; the purchases usually were made on a sort of, more or less, a
communal basis. Governance document was written then. So, there was nothing
when anybody came and we had no government, no structure, nothing. And
everybody… they all had a hand in creating their own institution or organization
from scratch. They didn't inherit any rules.
[Barbara]
Well, did the faculty have more say than the students in creating this?
[Gordon]
Well, in a sense in that they certainly couldn't teach something that the faculty
there weren't capable of teaching. I mean within the capability of the faculty, yes.
But the original programs where the administrative and management, arts and
media, social relations, pretty much environmental studies, and then of course
the synaptic program. Those were all that was established prior to the hiring of
the faculty.
[Barbara]
But you say that this whole…
[Gordon]
The way that the college was going to move… was established, I mean, that was
that they can decide they were going to go into economics or something.
[Barbara]
But the alternative nature of the college was set up by the entire community, is
that what you're saying?
[Gordon]
No, that was… No, the grading/no grading…the grading system was set up by
�the administration. By the original committee they were not going to have grades.
They were going to have honors credit or no credit. They did drop the honors the
second year in or second or third – it must have been the third year. And that
was a communal decision we did.
[Barbara]
When did representation come in? Because by the time I got to James not
everybody was on a council. You had…
[Gordon]
Well, that was all how the governance document was written during the first and
second year. So, that was where representation came in. It was a whole
community, and then they decided how they wanted to rule themselves or govern
themselves. So, the governance document was hacked out, changed a million
times over during the course of the first, I would say, two years. What year did
you come in?
[Barbara]
Oh, seventy-five, something like that. Seventy-five, seventy-six.
[Gordon]
Oh, okay. And it was pretty much established when you came in?
[Barbara]
Okay, how did…
[Unknown]
Hollywood!
[Gordon]
Yeah.
[Barbara]
How did the James philosophy get imbrued in all this? How did this happen?
Was it… did Mayberry lecture or something or how did the community get built
here? What were the ethics of the community? How did everybody learn to work
together?
[Gordon]
Well, let’s see. Well, I don't know.
[Barbara]
Okay, that one's going to go. Do you need Ginny right now? Is that why you
came in? Do you need me to stop?
[Unknown]
Oh, I'm just waiting…
[Gordon]
No, it's okay. I was just… I didn't really understand your question. I really don't
know what you're driving at, it seems sort of a…
[Barbara]
Why don't you talk about what you were saying before we started about the hiring
thing. Where you were getting so many applications. As you could be very
selective.
�[Gordon]
Okay. There were… the first year, there were 2,500 applications. They had
advertised in, you know, I would imagine several academic magazines.
Whatever. They advertise in New York Times, places like that. And there were
2,500 applications. So, the faculty could be very selective on who they wanted to
pick.
[Barbara]
What kind of criteria were they using?
[Barbara]
You were in on a lot of it because it was kind of your decision.
[Gordon]
Well, I think they were looking for people that were, first of all, interested in
alternative education. Secondly, who fit into the categories of the programs that
William James was offering. And then also, they were looking for people with a
very strong background in academia. People who are activists. People who
weren't from the traditional background, you know. Like Lafleur. And they were
looking for women. They definitely had a dedication to hiring women. So that's
kind of, you know.
[Barbara]
This is getting at the community thing again.
[Gordon]
Okay.
[Barbara]
You've been a secretary here. When you were at James, you participated in
decision making.
[Barbara]
In what ways did you participate in decision making?
[Gordon]
Well, I was on the council as an elected member for about two years. And also, I
had the voting privileges of hiring. We voted at the end on who we were going to
hire. They would bring two or three people here per position and then hack it all
out for better or for worse. And I had… all the secretaries had voting rights on
faculty hiring. And the council members, of course, where the ones that had
voting rights on other things.
[Barbara]
Okay. In the years that you've been here, you've seen a lot go on. I wonder if you
think we've made certain mistakes at James. What mistakes did we make at the
college? What should we have done better?
[Gordon]
Well, I think the only thing that I think could've been a little… I think it could've
been a little more disciplined. Not structured in a sense, like exams, or grades, or
anything. But I think that some of the faculty were a little too lenient about
student’s participation in the class and work that was required. I got my degree
from William James. Totally – I took all my courses in William James. So, I was a
student here, as well as working here, so I can speak from a classroom as a
�student as well as a worker. I think that some of the students fell into the cracks
because they had a view that this sort of cavalier attitude, "It really doesn't matter
if we don't go to class. It doesn't matter if we don't get the work in on time. We
still love each other, and I'm a real good friend of professor, you know, so and so,
and so therefore I don't have a problem."
[Gordon]
And I think that some of them are still not being able to cope and are still trying to
get a degree that started before I did.
[Barbara]
And you would be the one to know that because…
[Gordon]
I found as a student that was serious… class I found it very disruptive to
students. I had a real hard time with those that would show up occasionally in
class and then try to participate as if they've always been there and they didn't
even know what the textbooks were. So, that was a problem I had as student. I
think that could've been a little loss… sort of, chummy with the students where it
wasn't important. Because it was important.
[Barbara]
What did we do right Ginny? What was the…
[Gordon]
Well, I think that the level of education was just incredible. think the wide range of
classes was phenomenal. I think that the faculty were absolutely superior. I mean
they came from the very best schools in the country themselves. They were all
very brilliant. The ones that have left, have gone and have been hired by first-rate
schools. They weren't ordinary faculty; they were extraordinary. And they brought
with them a wealth of culture, education, knowledge. They were all so
interdisciplinary. They didn't have one discipline where nothing they taught was
nothing but history, they taught nothing but English or they could teach numerous
amounts of subjects – each faculty. That was another thing that they looked for.
Interdisciplinary! That’s the keyword. And that's something that I missed, in the
beginning, when we were talking… is that they were, first of all, hired on how
much they could teach. And they could… most of them, like Engie, could teach
five or six different disciplines. It was incredible. And they brought all that
knowledge to each class. That was the main thing. You don't find that at all
anymore. So, I don't think I could have gotten a better education anyplace. I feel
real fortunate, you know. And if there were a few flakes that fell by the wayside –
so what, you know? I mean the ones that came out of it… the opportunity for a
superior education was there if you chose to get it. Yeah.
[Barbara]
Good answer. You wanted to talk about why you think some of the faculty
wanted to come here. Because of the area?
[Gordon]
Oh, I think first of all, they came here because it gave them the opportunity to
create something where they could use all their talents. You know, where they
�weren't hired as a quote like Engie hired as a history professor. Period. Where
she taught nothing but history. I think they were all looking for that. They all had
the pioneer spirit; starting something totally on the ground floor. And it seems like
they came from areas where, being close to the lake, having the choice of living
in the city or in the country, on the lake, was real important to them, you know.
It's kind of like going out to the Colorado mountains or something. I mean it was a
pioneer spirit here to come here where things weren't established either. And
they lived in Grand Rapids, they lived in Allendale, and they lived in Grand Haven
– which are worlds apart as far as the environment goes, you know. I always feel
like I've driven 500 miles from the difference between Grand Rapids and in
Grand Haven, you know.
[Barbara]
I was talking to somebody who moved…
[Gordon]
Yeah! So, you had that choice that I would find very attractive coming here from,
say, New York city or you know.
[Barbara]
Ginny, here's a question I ask people, and I never ask it in advance. I want an
answer in a sentence or two: if you had to sum up the core of William James,
what was distinctive about William James? Very briefly. One thing. What was it?
[Gordon]
Mainly doing, in your profession, what you enjoy doing. You know, mixing your
avocation and your vocation into one, or getting it as close to it. Developing your
avocation. Not getting an education for the sake of a job, per se. We all have to
earn a living but not just, you know, engulfing your entire life.
[Barbara]
Great.
[Gordon]
You know I was sorry. I really got nervous when Alex was in here. It just shut me
right off.
[Barbara]
I know, me too. It draws all the… he just comes in…
[Gordon]
Well he was standing there and listening and all of a sudden…
[Barbara]
I was mad at him because he knows what's going on and he knows it's
distracting, so he walks in, does this, went over there. He didn't have to do that.
[Gordon]
I know it. So, I'm sorry that…
[Barbara]
No…
[Gordon]
I don't even remember what the question was now, but I…
�[Barbara]
What you did was you said: "I can't answer it." Which was the honest response,
and we went on.
[Gordon]
Yeah, okay.
[Barbara]
You gave some very good answers. One thing that is so neat is that I ask
everyone that question about what was the core of William James, say it in a
sentence, at the end of an interview. No two people have said the same thing. I
just love it.
[Gordon]
Oh, yeah, yeah.
[Barbara]
And it’s so William James-y. See. We weren't programmed, there wasn't one
thing to hold on to. I've recognized every answer and none of it seemed off the
wall.
[Gordon]
Um-hum, uh-huh.
[Barbara]
You know, but it's all been different. I just love it. I'm going to run this sequence…
[Gordon]
Oh, that's neat.
[Barbara]
Of people answering it. Isn't that nice?
[Gordon]
Oh! That's… yeah! That's the way to do it! Yes! Yeah, yeah.
[Barbara]
It really works. I just love your answer, you know?
[Gordon]
Good! Good! Good.
[Barbara]
I think you did real well. Please think for minute what else you would want to say.
You know what I mean?
[Gordon]
Um-hum.
[Barbara]
Sometimes I walk away and then we go: "What we really should have said
was...."
[Gordon]
Yeah, I know it.
[Barbara]
So just take a second. I think it's a great interview okay.
[Gordon]
Well, let me just mull a couple things around.
�[Barbara]
Keep talking.
[Gordon]
I think that's one of the biggest things that is missed now, but it's also because of
the times – it’s not just Grand Valley, it's not just because William James isn't
here – is that there's no feeling of community anymore. There might be within
small little… like your little film group or you know, your little… but as far as your
feeling community with the historians, you could never. I mean, what do you say
to those people? Or that… I mean, you know it's nothing but…
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
William James College Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Interdisciplinary approach in education
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
GV016-16
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
GV016-16_GVSU_35_Gordon
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gordon, Ginny
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1984
Title
A name given to the resource
Ginny Gordon interview (1 of 2, video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Ginny Gordon by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Ginny Gordon was an Executive Administrative Secretary in Grand Valley's Central Administration during the creation of William James College who provided administrative assistance and helped guide the new faculty in the college's infancy. In this interview, Ginny discusses her experience being a part of the William James College community since the very beginning, the pioneer spirit of the founding faculty, and the profound interest in alternative education at that time. This interview is part 1 of 2 for Ginny Gordon.
Contributor
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Roos, Barbara (Interviewer)
Subject
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Grand Valley State University
Michigan
Universities and colleges
Oral histories
Alternative education
Women in higher education
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng