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Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Jerry Moyer
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Christopher Kroupa
Interviewer: We are at the 2016 Ripcord Association Reunion in Springfield, Missouri. We’re
talking now with Jerry Moyer of Bella Vista Arkansas and the interviewer is James Smither of
the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Jerry, start us off with some
background on yourself, and to begin with where and when were you born?
Veteran: I was born right here in Springfield Missouri in 1948, October 13,
Interviewer: Okay, did your family live in Springfield or in the area somewhere? Or…
Veteran: Yes, lived over on the north side of town,
Interviewer: Okay and did you grow up here?
Veteran: I, I grew up till, I was here till I, let me think, about 1958,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: My dad died, and my mom remarried shortly after that and we moved to Omaha
Nebraska, and that’s where I went to high school and that’s where I entered the service is up in
Omaha,
�Interviewer: Okay and did you graduate from high school?
Veteran: Yes,
Interviewer: Okay, when did you graduate?
Veteran: 1966 was my year,
Interviewer: Okay and what did you do after you got out, out of school?
Veteran: I spent about a year working at a grocery store up there and, worked full-time, and
didn’t have any rent or anything like that so I thought, I thought I was making good money, but I
had a motorcycle and a GTO and I kept getting little tickets and I had four tickets in one month
and the judge told me, I see you one more time I will do everything in my power to get your
license, and this buddy I used to run with up there, we decided, you know we’ve been talking
about going in the service lets go, go do it cause we don’t have a future here no more, it, it’s
gonna happen, get another ticket and we went down to the recruiter, signed up and it was my
buddies idea he said,
(2:00)
�Veteran: We wanna go Airborne Ranger, and yeah what the heck, go, go in on the buddy system
and we did our physical and came back like three days later and he told me he said, I got good,
called me in first, no called my buddy in first, and he, when he left he went out the door didn’t
even come back to see me, but when I went in there the guy said, I got good news and bad news,
bad news is we’re not gonna take your buddy he’s got a health issue, and the good news is we’re
gonna take you and then he says, now do you still wanna go Airborne Ranger, and I said no I
don’t think so and told him I had an uncle who worked for the phone company and have you got
anything along them, and he said we got a wonderful pro-, we can get you climbing telephone
poles stringing wire and I says that’s, that’s what I wanna do, I'm gonna go on, I'm gonna go
ahead and go in and they kept their word on it I went to basic training at Fort Campbell
Kentucky, the irony of that, that’s the home of the 101st,
Interviewer: Alright now, before we get into that, to back up a little bit, so the physical that you
took was actually a serious physical then?
Veteran: Yes,
Interviewer: Okay, cause some people suggest that what they got was, you know can you walk
and breathe kind of thing,
Veteran: Oh no no, they
Interviewer: Not the one you did?
�Veteran: They had doctors poking and prodding on us,
Interviewer: Okay, alright and then, how much did you know about Vietnam at the point when
you signed up?
Veteran: Not a clue, not a clue, and matter of fact I didn’t even, you know I didn’t think there
was any chance I’d be going off to some war somewhere,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That, that, that’s how young and dumb I was, I didn’t realize that’s what the Army’s in
the business for, but
Interviewer: Alright, so you were just going as a thing to do and,
Veteran: Get it out of the way, the draft was going on then, I said you got to do this anyway,
Interviewer: Right, okay, so now when did you show up at Fort Campbell for basic training?
(4:00)
�Veteran: That would have been the early September and like I said we’d be out there, we thought
they were trying to kill us but we would see these Airborne guys, well I mean we might march to
the rifle range, these guys ran to the rifle range and might even do a circle around us, and I
thought oh this is unreal what them guys, well they, I didn’t think that we had it so bad, but did
our eight weeks of basic and,
Interviewer: Okay, now before we move on from basic, just cover a little more for people who
don’t know, what do you actually do in basic training?
Veteran: You get a series of shots, just, it’s something they do and evacuation type things, and
you learn how to march its simple as that sound, you gotta learn how to do it and you gotta learn
who to salute and who not to salute and after about two or three weeks they let you handle a rifle,
and you get to play with it for about a week and then they finally take you to a rifle range and
you get to fire that weapon, and you know, things are going better then, when, it’s an eight week
course and when you're in the fourth or fifth week they, they start to treat you a little nicer and
they still call you trainee and they ain’t got a name for you,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And, but they do, they do start to treat you a little, and you learn the discipline,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: There a chain of command and you better respect it, and you learn how to clean that
barracks and you can never clean it good enough for em, you, you’ll clean it twice and then they
might let you off then,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, now how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to all of that?
Veteran: I, me personally I didn’t have any trouble at all, I mean, I, I wasn’t one of the fastest
runners, but I wasn’t definitely wasn’t the slowest and my locker, footlocker and bunk might not
have been the best, but it wasn’t the worst,
(6:03)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I was, I was just kind of a middle-of-the-road person and it kept me out of trouble I
mean, you know I learned real quick you don’t talk in the chow line in matter of fact we weren’t
even allowed to talk when we were eating back then, but I adjusted pretty well, it didn’t bother
me too much, I mean I can do the physical stuff,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, and as far as you , were the other guys you were training with other
enlistees or were there draftees mixed in?
Veteran: We had some of both,
�Interviewer: Okay, alright so you kind of progressed through the training, you get into some
weapons training, things like that and gradually and stuff kind of comes together, the drill
instructors behave a little bit better,
Veteran: Yup
Interviewer: And then that’s an eight-week course?
Veteran: Eight-week course, yeah
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: And then there’s classroom activity all throughout all this stuff, and jus various military
things that you need to know,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You know booby traps, and you do a little, you get a little bit of schooling on
everything, and its, again its associated with war,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright and what do you do then after basic?
�Veteran: When you graduate from basic, they have a little ceremony a big parade field and now
you're not a trainee no more, you're a real soldier, if you can pass basically,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You're a solider, but they, they assign you where you're next duty station is and you get
and MOS, an MOS is just, that’s your new job,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Your new title and if you go to that advanced, advanced infantry training school and
pass you actually get that MOS,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And mine was 36 Charlie, that’s a signal,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: MOS, and my, my next duty station was Fort Gordon Georgia, and that’s, that’s the,
they got WIC down there and they got the school for MPs,
(8:00)
�Veteran: But that’s where I learned to climb telephone poles and string wire and ride a little
cable car, they had about eight poles set in a role that weren’t twenty feet apart, but you had to
climb up that, set the little cable car on there and then you had to, from your gaffs, you had to get
in that thing and not you know break your neck, and it wasn’t up that high probably I don’t think
it was quite twenty feet but it’s at least fifteen feet, I mean it’d hurt you if you fell, but you go
over to the next pole and you get out and get on the pole, grab your cable car and set it on the
next, and when you go through the, that was, that’s how you pass that little course,
Interviewer: Okay, and so you got through that alright?
Veteran: Yeah, oh yeah
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Climbing didn’t bother me a bit, I, and I've never climbed,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It, it, yeah
�Interviewer: Just came naturally. All right, now eventually you wind up in Vietnam in an
infantry unit, now you, but you, but did you finish that training course and then with that
designation so were you, signals guy or?
Veteran: Well I've got a signal MOS but then they sent me to Fort Leonard Wood for an
advanced signal course,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then, I think that only lasted about six weeks, but we went there and did that one
and then we got our next orders to our duty station and mine was Germany,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I spent a year and a half in Germany,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: And I was attached to a mechanized infantry unit and I had that signal MOS the whole
time except right at the end I got promoted to Buck Sergeant, well the slot that was available to
me was an infantry slot so my MOS changed when I got them three stripes, and now Sergeant
Moyer is, we had a bulletin board in our company area and I don’t, I don’t, I got to looking at it
too but they had what they call a levy, have you heard this term?
�(10:06)
Interviewer: Yeah, when it’s a, they're recruiting or they're, reassigning people,
Veteran: Reassigning,
Interviewer: When they draw them out of one unit and,
Veteran: Yeah,
Interviewer: Put them in another,
Veteran: They had the list, had the levy guys come down and say the levies came down and
you'd go up there and be a whole bunch of names on there and I think it was from the whole
battalion that you were attached too, and the levy usually meant you were going to Vietnam, it’s
a new duty station,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I mean it could have been Korea but most of the time it was to Vietnam, well I know
sooner than got these E-5 Sergeant stripes and my name popped up on there, and I had my wife
�over there, and I had orders to leave, I don’t know in six weeks or something like that, but my
wife was pregnant, they wouldn’t let her fly, so I got a deferment,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And when the baby came and I think they had to wait two months for, they didn’t want
the baby flying until it was two months old, the two months came up, sent her home on an
airplane and then I, I, I don’t know exactly how long after that but four or five months went by
and I said they forgot me, lo and behold they haven’t forgot me, the orders came down again and
I, that’s, requested a leave, 30-day leave, and when that leave was up and my eight to ten days
travel time to get to my next duty station on the way to Vietnam, I only had ten months to go in
the service and I kept thinking they're not gonna take me, they was happy to get me and I went, I
went to Vietnam and I landed there, I had ten months to go,
Interviewer: Okay, to back up a little, talk a little bit about the time you spent in Germany,
(12:00)
Interviewer: What unit were you with there, what were you doing,
Veteran: I was assigned to the 4th Armored Division, and it was a little town called Crailsheim,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And we had two battalions on that post, there was a, our infantry, mechanized infantry
unit and there was an artillery unit there that, and they were capable of firing, I don’t know what
the proper term is, they could do a nuclear strike,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But its, not, not nothing big, its, I don’t even know how to say this, there were small
nuclear weapons,
Interviewer: Right, because there were, as in artil-, that could be fired out of artillery pieces,
Veteran: Yes,
Interviewer: Yes, okay
Veteran: They,
Interviewer: Tactical nuclear devices,
Veteran: Whatever that word is, yeah that’s right and they, and they had our infantry battalion
was, were there to protect them when we deployed and Germany was, was good duty, got to go
on passes pretty regularly and go out on the economy and see the castles and,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the food, the guest houses, all that, the food was just excellent over there, its, I'm
sure it’s changed but you order a meal over there and you think they brought all this food for me
and my wife and who else is gonna be eating with us,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Big plates of steamed potatoes, huge bowl of salad you know good gosh, and there, and
they were almost acted offended if you didn’t eat it all, but,
Interviewer: Alright, now when had you gotten married?
Veteran: I got married in AIT in ’68, February and she stuck with me all these years,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I think we’re on number 48’s coming up,
Interviewer: Alright, and so then she was able to go, now did she go with you to Germany or
could she come out once you made Sergeant or how did that work?
�Veteran: No I went to Germany alone,
(14:01)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And as soon as I got there, I checked into what I had to do to get off post privileges,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You know to live off post,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: And they, they told me what I had to do, and I went down and found a place to rent and
I rented it and they approved all this, and, and wrote home, hey get on a plane and get over here,
we got a place to live,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So we, we lived, we was over there eighteen months,
Interviewer: Okay, so when do you actually go to Vietnam then?
�Veteran: Okay, we came home from Germany and I don’t know if you, there were riots going on
all across the country,
Interviewer: Its 1968, yes,
Veteran: And I remember when I got on the plane here in Springfield Missouri, we was gonna
stop at Kansas City and it was a night flight and I remember they came on the loudspeaker and
they said if your destination is not Kansas City do not leave the terminal, there's the National
Guard Forces out and it, and I remember flying into that airport, you can see fires burning,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But anyway okay I stayed in the airport and got on the next plane and went to Fort
Lewis Washington,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And spent a couple weeks there, that’s the first time I ever had an M-16 in my hand and
you know what a neat little rifle, we’d always have M-14s up to then,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, now by this time have they gotten the M-16 functioning well enough so
you could use it without jamming or,
�Veteran: Okay, I wanna skip a lot to tell you about that,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: When I left Vietnam, when they threw me on that medevac to take me home, or take me
to the hospital, up until that time I never had a malfunction with my M-16, I thought it was a
wonderful weapon,
Interviewer: Okay, alright,
(16:00)
Interviewer: It got better over time, alright so we go back and some people didn’t have trouble to
start with so, anyway so I was gonna go back here, so you got, so basically you're, you're at Fort
Lewis, so do you, were they training you on the M-16 just to kill time or was there something
they wanted to do for people going to Vietnam?
Veteran: I don’t think it was just to kill time,
Interviewer: Okay,
�Veteran: I think they, I think they possibly realized there was a lot of soldiers that had had an M16 in their hand,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Because that’s when they was converting over from the M-14,
Interviewer: Right, right
Veteran: But we, we were there for two weeks, we did some training on booby traps and
contraband that we were going to run into over there in Vietnam, and it just lasted three weeks or
two weeks anyway,
Interviewer: Okay so to some extent it was an organized program and not just,
Veteran: Oh absolutely,
Interviewer: What you're doing while you're waiting,
Veteran: Oh absolutely,
Interviewer: Okay and then what kind of plane do you fly on, was it commercial or military?
�Veteran: When that was done, and they said go down get on the bus to go to the airport, it’s a
commercial plane, and we landed in Hawaii and dropped a passenger or two off there and wasn’t
there in Hawaii very long at all, but took off again and landed at Wake Island and dropped a
couple of people off there and then they came on the speakers, says we’re gonna be here for
about an hour if you wanna get off and there’s a monument over here somewhere if, you can
read about the battle that was here and all that, and I did get off and Wake Island, I’ll tell you
what if somebody had spit in the ocean I believe they’d have a tidal wave, they, there is no high
point on that island, but anyway we, we got on the plane and we went to Guam, and then from
there we went to Ton Son Nhut Air Force Base outside of Si-, Saigon,
Interviewer: Saigon right, okay now at this point do you know what unit you're going to, or were
you gonna find out after you get there?
Veteran: I’ll tell you about my heart getting broke,
(18:01)
Veteran: We had a couple of weeks of training that was the surge training,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And when it was all over, they had a big parade field and across the parade field they
had trucks and buses and all of them had emblems on them, or a cardboard sign in the window
that says first cab or whatever,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then they had a little tower, up there about ten or fifteen feet and it had a guy with
a bullhorn, and he would call your name and tell you what units you're going to, and there was
about a thousand of us, and there was one other guy there with my last name, and I remember
the, they said Sergeant Moyer 101st Airborne, ain’t me, I ain’t never jumped out of no plane, it’s
gonna be the other guy, well nobody stepped forward, and these drill sergeants, or sergeants you
know how they are when nobody responds to them, it was Sergeant blah-blah-blah, serial
number 101st Airborne, and I said my God that’s me,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And grabbed my duffle bag and I, I, I always remember this going across that parade
field to that bus and I, I felt like a kid that had just seen his puppy ran over, I am, I am down in
the dumps, what are they gonna do, hey this is the real thing, them guys are I mean I've heard of
the 101st and I went to basic training, was all around them, I got over to the bus and I asked the
driver I said, I told, I said driver they’ve made a mistake with me I've never jumped out of a
plane in my life, and he promptly reassured me we’re not jumping, we just need infantry
�replacements and I thought they ran over my other dog then, I, I was so down in the dumps that
day it was just unreal, and
(20:00)
Interviewer: So at this point you didn’t really know what the 101st had been doing in Vietnam,
Veteran: No,
Interviewer: You were just thinking about jumping out of airplanes, and then being stuck being
infantry,
Veteran: Yean and, I'm, I'm, I have no idea what, what are they gonna use me for, I mean this
driver said they're gonna you as an infantryman,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But, but I, and I do remember going up there and I don’t remember what movie it is
about Vietnam, and it might be Hamburger Hill, but at the start of the movie they show some
new guys coming into country and some old guys leaving,
Interviewer: They do that in Platoon I know,
�Veteran: Is it Platoon,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Okay, but they talk about don’t go to the A Shau, I hope you don’t have to go to the A
Shau, I remember these guys like what the hell is the A Shau,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And guess where I spent eight months, in the A Shau Valley, and I you know I realized
what they were talking about, but I went up to Phu Bai,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And promptly got introduced to a night attack, it wasn’t serious, but you know there
sirens are going off, the lights are all being shut off and there's a rocket attack and I can
remember seeing, they told us later it was these 122 rockets,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: A rocket about six foot tall, and you can see them flying across the sky, you can see the,
the sparks and stuff and I thought wow, is this what wars really like, you know I, I, I didn’t know
what war was like, and I don’t have a gun now, they haven’t issued me a weapon right, I'm just
�sitting in a barracks with a bunch of guys, we ain’t got nothing but our fists to fight with, but
anyway went over to Camp Evans after that and got introduced to my first Sergeant, and he said
the guys were out in the field but there's a stand down coming, I didn’t know exactly what a
stand down was which he said they’ll be coming in a couple of days and we’ll, we’ll get you
situated with your company, not your company your platoon,
(22:02)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And that’s when I met my guys,
Interviewer: Okay, so what company were you assigned to?
Veteran: I was assigned to Charlie company 2nd platoon, and I was actually 2nd squad,
Interviewer: Okay, and then which battalion regiment?
Veteran: 2nd battalion, 506 Infantry Division,
Interviewer: Regiment, that’s the regiment, the 101st Airborne Division,
Veteran: 101st Airborne Division,
�Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: That’s right the regiment was 506,
Interviewer: Yeah, you just wanna officially get all that down on the record
Veteran: the 3rd Brigade,
Interviewer: Right, okay so how long did you spend in Camp Evans before they got back in do
you think?
Veteran: It’s just two or three days, and a
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: And, and I was very pleased when the guys did come in and they, and again I was
please but I thought here again I'm nervous, cause they said you're gonna be a squad leader,
you're a Sergeant,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And they introduced me to my squad and I mean these, these rascals looked tough, but
they were a good bunch of guys and I more or less said I'm green as a gourd, when it comes to
what, what you guys are really doing out there help me out, and then we’ll go from there, and
they did,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I mean I didn’t get bossy with them or you know, we’re gonna do this and that, no
we’re not doing, I did not do that, I let them, I let them lead me, first few weeks, and you get the
hang of what you do, it’s just repetitious you, you go searching out in the jungle it gets lunchtime
you stop, and set up kind of a position that you could defend if something were to happen, you
eat your food, put your rucksack back on, you go out looking some more and at night time you
put your claymore mines out, come back in cook your food and write your letters and,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Then set up your guard shifts
(24:00)
Veteran: Every night you got pull guard and, in my squad, we pulled guard at least two times a
night and most of the time three times a night because it’d be three men guard, guard positions
and you, and you know dark, dark to daylight,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There's a lot of hours in there,
Interviewer: How many men in the squad?
Veteran: Eight,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Sometimes nine, mostly eight, somebody was always off on R and R or somebody was
going home, eight, eight, eight or nine,
Interviewer: Okay, and when do you, did you actually join these guys? Kind of what month or,
Veteran: Oh its November just before Thanksgiving,
Interviewer: Okay, so November ’69, okay
Veteran: Yes,
�Interviewer: Its actually when we were talking before about coming back and the riots and things
like that, that would have been kind of summer of ’69 or early fall or somewhere in there,
Veteran: When I,
Interviewer: You were talking about being, flying from Springfield to Kansas City and staying at
Fort…
Veteran: Oh I see what you're getting,
Interviewer: So that’s, I guess early, somewhere in the fall of ’69,
Veteran: November,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: It probably would have been September,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: I'm just guessing at the month,
Interviewer: Yeah,
�Veteran: That, that I did that in,
Interviewer: Okay, alright so anyway we’ve gotten ourselves to November of ’69, you’ve joined
your unit, you're starting to go out into the field, and where were you operating?
Veteran: We were operating in what they call I Corps,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I Corps is the northernmost part of South Vietnam it starts, the northern edge of it is the
DMZ, and it goes south of a town called Da Nang and over to the Laotian border,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And all points in between,
Interviewer: Right, and then specifically within that you mentioned going to the A Shau Valley
so is that where you were operating?
Veteran: That’s where I operated at, the A Shau Valley, I was wounded in my eighth month and
the previous seven months were spent in the A Shau Valley,
�Interviewer: Okay, so what,
(26:00)
Interviewer: What was going on there militarily or whatever at the time you got there, was there
much enemy activity or was it quieter?
Veteran: When I was over there, there was right at a hundred GI’s a month dying in all of
Vietnam, and the first month I was over there I don’t remember experiencing anybody in our
company dying,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But every now and then you'd hear about somebody, somebody got it over in bravo
company or, and it, I was over there a couple of months before we, our company actually took
any casualties,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We had to send home in a body bag, but you know I, I'm thinking how unlucky was that
guy and all this and, and you know, and we did, we did a lot of searching and finding nothing,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And I’ve, I’ve jokingly and I hate to trivialize what I am saying, it was a big campout,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I mean I went for, oh I know there was times I went two weeks without firing my
weapon, but when you did fire it you know things got exciting, most fire fights lasted less than
ten minutes, five minutes,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, so these just be a handful or a couple of the,
Veteran: Trail watchers is what we called them, they’ve got a camp down the trail a quarter mile
or something and they're just the advanced warning if something goes wrong, shut that off,
*Screen goes black*
Interviewer: Alright so we have you at this point in, in Vietnam, you’ve shown up at the end, and
you’ve gone out in the field at the end of the year in ’69, you say you’ve kind of got there before
Thanksgiving where you, on Thanksgiving day do you remember if you were in the field or on a
firebase or,
Veteran: Absolutely remember where I was at that day, we were in the foothills,
�(28:00)
Veteran: West of Camp Evans, and the mountains were just beyond us, they sent out a helicopter
on Thanksgiving day and they'd had these coolers had had cranberries in this one, mashed
potatoes in this one, gravy in this one, turkey and dressing in this one, and they even sent some
milk out and that was a very, very rare thing to have, I know, I know, as far as the food went I, I,
I actually craved milk or something sweet,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Because we just didn’t have that and, but it was a very good meal and a couple hours
later choppers came back out and picked up all that stuff,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we’re back to eating c-rations again,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: But it was a good break, it, I mean I don’t know in the rear organized that or said they
had to do this, or they did it just because it was the right thing to do,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: But they did do it and it was very nice
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright it was something commonplace in the 1st Cavalry Division
because they had lots of helicopters, it varied for a lot of other units and sometimes the food
came in and already spoiled so you got lucky,
Veteran: I, I guess I did, yeah
Interviewer: Alright now who was your company commander when you join the unit, do you
remember?
Veteran: I believe his name, I'm gonna say Lamb,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm because you had a picture of a Captain Lamb in your book so I expect
that was,
Veteran: I, I think he was our and I didn’t have enough rank to hob knob with them people,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, right,
Veteran: So I didn’t, I didn’t break bread with them, and I mean I didn’t get to talk to them very
often,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm, and do you remember who your platoon leader was?
Veteran: No,
Interviewer: Okay,
(30:00)
Interviewer: Cause they also came and went,
Veteran: I think his, we called him Queenie and his name might have been Queen, but that’s,
Interviewer: Okay, now had your unit been involved in the Hamburger Hill fight before you
joined it?
Veteran: I don’t know,
Interviewer: Okay so they didn’t talk about that,
Veteran: That’s 101st, that’s a 101st battle but,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: I don’t know if my actual battalion was involved in that or not,
Interviewer: Alright, okay so you're out there, now my understanding is you spend some time in,
in the A Shau and then some point early in 1970 you're back at Camp Evans or along the coast or
up toward the DMZ, you're different people from that company have kind of mentioned different
places, do you remember, because you talked about being in the foothills at Thanksgiving so you
weren’t all the way on the A Shau at that point,
Veteran: Right at the edge of it,
Interviewer: Yeah so would you kind of go in and out or just stay there for a while and then get
out or what do you recall about where you went?
Veteran: Well this foothills thing, that, that was rare,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I mean, I, and, and the weather was different right there because we were in lower
altitude,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And it was hot,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Most of the time, like I said we were in the A Shau, at nighttime, I ain't gonna say it
gets cold but it does get cold, and when the rains come I mean it is cold, but as far as being back
at Camp Evans I don’t know, every three or four weeks we get to go to Camp Evans for a threeday stand down,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And that was, I mean that was, that was a break you didn’t have to pull guard duty at
night, you got to sleep all night, which you know that, that’s very unusual we got to sleep all
night, but I never went to the DMZ,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Just basically, just twenty-five miles due west to Camp Evans was just where I was at,
within a,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(32:00)
�Veteran: I don’t a five-mile circle,
Interviewer: Alright, now one of the things that happened with your particular company was that
there's sort of several changes of commander, couple of them anyway while you're there, and a
Captain Vazquez would have come in,
Interviewer: Veteran: Mm-hmm
Interviewer: At some point early in 1970, what impression did you have of him?
Veteran: Like I said before I didn’t hob knob with these guys, they're more rank than I will, I
wanna be associated with but we, we learned to respect Captain Vazquez, he was not gonna let
us get in too big a jam, I mean we might get into a problem but he, he, we, you could tell this
man here he knew what to do about it, he didn’t have to call for help he knew what to do,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And he can get us out of it, in fact Captain Vazquez he was a, he was a soldier’s soldier,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, right and did anything in terms of what you did in the field, did any
practicality change the way you did anything or were things more subtle than that?
�Veteran: When Captain Vazquez took over, probably the biggest change I remember that from
what we normally did, we looked harder for the enemy,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: With Captain Vazquez, I mean the other, the other you know, might not have to do a lot
of searching, and then do that for three or four days but maybe a helicopter pick you up and take
you to the other side of the ridge, you do it again, but Vazquez we, we, we covered a lot of
ground with that man,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm and he talks about never wanting to use trails, is that what you recalled,
did you have to cut your own way or?
Veteran: I, I don’t remember that particular thing and I, and maybe somebody there with us does
remember that,
(34:00)
Veteran: I do remember we did make a lot of trails, but I had never thought of it, you know he
kept us off of established trails, I do remember we found trail markers when we were on trails,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And that, that was kind of a scary thing that, you know somebody put signs up saying
something,
Interviewer: So that’s basically to give the North Vietnamese directions for when they're using
the trails?
Veteran: Yeah, this trail here is good, this ones booby-trapped,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Yeah, I mean, and I don’t know exactly, but I do remember seeing these, these little
chop marks in trees and there's the trail goes two different ways,
Interviewer: Okay, did you have any Vietnamese with you, in your company? Did they have a
Chieu Hoi or somebody?
Veteran: We had a Chieu Hoi, our platoon had one and Hap was his name,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Or that’s all I ever know of him by, and he was quite, we, we trusted him,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: He, I do remember one of these trail markers he, he said no, no, no, no, I forget the
language he used,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But he is talking Vietnamese we don’t want to go that way, and we didn’t,
Interviewer: Okay so he seemed to know at least something about what was going on out there?
Veteran: Oh absolutely he did, I mean, and I can understand that, I mean once the North
Vietnamese soldiers came down there that, I mean they had a set of trail markers and it was
good, it was good for anybody,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: In their outfits that came by this, so it, it wasn’t a real secretive thing,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That the way, what these trail markers meant,
�Interviewer: Okay, alright so you spend, so if you kind of go from November, December or
January February March,
(36:00)
Interviewer: You're kind of doing pretty much the same thing?
Veteran: Well during that period when the monsoons came,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: That was a, that was ugly, we, we got socked in and we’re just, the rain is just unde-,
you can’t describe it, its I mean when the season started you know every day at two o’clock it’s
raining, and a few days later it seems like it starts at noon, and then it just progresses over that
first month until its, its literally raining all day long,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And that goes on for three or four weeks and then, then it tapers back down but up there
in the mountains it was, normal time it was cold at night, I mean you, well during the monsoon
season you, I, it’s a wonder we didn’t catch pneumonia out there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Because we’re wet all the time and I don’t remember anybody ever catching pneumonia
come to think of it, it, leaches were bad, I mean good gosh and when I was, before I went over to
Vietnam I can remember swimming in a creek and you might get a little ole leach a half-inch or
an inch long on you, and it’s all just, ehh, just,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Curls your skin to take his thing sucking blood out of you, and we get over there and
they got these leaches that live on dry land, I mean you're going up the side of a mountain and
these things are crawling on you and, and I don’t know what they do when they bite you, they,
they did in the skin or something because most of the time you don’t feel them chewing on you,
what you feel is when they're bloated and grotesque and they fall off of you and they roll down
your pants leg, that’s what you feel, they're full, they’ve had enough but, and I, and I do
remember this and this is probably kind of,
(38:00)
Veteran: A GI will find a way to goof off or have fun one way or another, and we had this
mosquito repellent if a leech is on you, you squirt that on him and he would fall off but the
repellant kind of burnt where the blood was, but we, we catch on of these leeches and we find a
rock or something and put him right in the middle of it and put a circle of this insect repellant
�around it and watch him try to get out of that and I mean it’s just silly stupid stuff, but it was
entertaining,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We didn’t have much entertainment out there,
Interviewer: Alright, now most of the time when you were in the field in this period, did you
operate in individual platoons or have the whole company together or break down in squads, I
mean was there a normal procedure?
Veteran: In my outfit, we operated in company strength rarely,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I mean we might move into an area and the whole company is there, but this platoon
goes over this way and this platoon goes, and when we were in platoons, when I was in platoon
strength a lot,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But every now and then you could tell somebody from up above, Captain Vazquez or
somebody’s called in, send a squad out here on an ambush, or we got a resupply day, Lieutenant
�Campbell we need somebody to recon down this side of this mountain to the bottom across the
river, go up the other side and turn around and come back and the next day is probably, that’s
probably where we’re going, but really rarely operated in squad strength,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Mostly in platoon strength,
Interviewer: And most of that time about how many men did you have in the platoon?
Veteran: Twenty-five, that was probably, again we, we carried more than that but there was
always somebody in,
(40:02)
Veteran: You know they’ve smashed their toe or something and they're, they're in the rear
recovery, they're on R and R, so we were always short,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We never had full strength, I never remember, I said it, I don’t even know what full
strength was, but I know we didn’t have enough men all the time,
�Interviewer: Yeah, so a lot larger than what your company had,
Veteran: Yeah,
Interviewer: So okay, so you're like, now in, starting in the middle or March of 1970, that’s when
they make their first effort to set up what will become Firebase Ripcord,
Veteran: That’s true,
Interviewer: And initially this Alpha Company goes in and then B Company actually tries,
Veteran: And both of them had lots of problems,
Interviewer: Yeah, and they both leave, and we get into April, now its C Company’s turn to go
in,
Veteran: Yeah, I mean this is like B Company got fired up and the next day they told us we’re
going up there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And when, it’s one of the, there's a few things in Vietnam I will never forget, and, and I
called them rotten SOB’s, they flew a chaplain out to have communion or whatever, some kind
�of services for us before we left, I thought my God they're gonna get us killed, where are we
going,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I know they said everybody go to the ammo dump, draw extra grenades and more
ammo than you normally carry, and we did that, and I do remember virtually every man dropped
a letter in the mail sack,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: As we was boarding them choppers, and consequently we, we’re up there and we are
circling around their artillery going off down there, and then they brought us in and we spent that
first night on the side of that mountain,
(42:00)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then the next morning we walked up there and didn’t fire a shot, I mean it was,
they'd left, and, and then he start of the helicopters coming in bringing concertina wire and you
name it, just everything that, that hill needed to defend itself,
�Interviewer: Alright, now do you remember if Captain Vazquez was with you on that very first
night or did he come in the next day?
Veteran: No I don’t remember this,
Interviewer: Okay, alright, now what was, as the base is getting established and your company is
still up there on top of that hill, what kind of work did you do?
Veteran: My, well basically we were all told, we’ve got to make this defendable, and if you
weren’t digging a fighting trench and a bunker to sleep in, you were out clearing trees and stuff
down below rolling them up and just making a field of fire that they don’t have much to hide
behind, and put more concertina wire up and, getting ammo boxes and building the front of your
fighting trench up with them and the three top layers are full of grenades, and, and in your M-16
magazines and one of the boxes probably have a, the firing devices for the claymore mines, and
gosh we must have had, there was four of us in that bunker and, and we must have had a dozen
claymores out in front of us, because we weren’t packing them around,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We were just, you was just going up and getting them, keep setting them out and we
dug a hole for a fifty-five-gallon drum that we had fougas out of, and we set two claymores
behind it and put the can in there and fill it up with the,
�(44:02)
Veteran: JP4, that’s aviation fuel and I don’t remember what we, we mixed it up,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: With sawdust or something,
Interviewer: Somebody, somebody suggested it was soap powder or,
Veteran: Soap powder, I don’t remember, we did mix it with something to make it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Coagulate a little bit,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And it becomes kind of, it stick to you a little bit better, but we put two claymores
behind it and ran the cord back to a firing position, and that, that’s an impressive thing to see get
set off,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: It, it would make me change my mind what, what I was wanting to do,
Interviewer: Yeah it just a giant burst of flame,
Veteran: Oh,
Interviewer: Popping up right in front of you, yeah. How long do you think you spent on top of
Ripcord? At least that first time,
Veteran: Oh that first time, shoot, it’s probably about thirty days,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: We, and that was good duty, I mean, I mean you weren’t even out humping around, I
mean the, the night time over in Vietnam its, there's a song, you curse the darkness and you pray
for the light, and it didn’t matter if you was on Firebase Ripcord or you was out in the jungle in a
small outfit, the darkness it just it, I will say this the darker it was, the safer you felt because I
mean when its pitch black, in the jungle with that triple canopy you can’t move in it without
making a lot of noise, so I mean that was the safety margin right there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: It’s in big moonlit night, I wrote letters home at two o’clock in the morning in the
moonlight,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: and now that’s, that’s, that’s when you should be more alert because that’s, the enemy
can move around and be reasonably quiet,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Yeah,
Interviewer: Alright, so you're up there, now during that time, I mean did the enemy make any
effort either to probe position or did they shoot anything at you while you were up there?
(46:01)
Veteran: Occasionally, not very much, we might take two or three mortar rounds one day and the
probing part of it, they could have probed us every night I wouldn’t have known any different,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: But I'm sure they did probe us occasionally, but I don’t remember taking a small arms
fire while we were there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: No RPGs, and your direct fire weapons, but they did mortar us ever, yeah, I mean every
three or four days, accept right when the big battle started, now that’s a different story, all, all
them things I said didn’t happen,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: Did happen,
Interviewer: Yeah, okay but initially it, it’s fairly quiet and in some ways its,
Veteran: Good duty
Interviewer: Things were going the way they were supposed to,
Veteran: Yup,
Interviewer: And after that thirty days or whatever it is, now your company goes out in the field
now?
�Veteran: Then we do a, then we do a patrol and they rotated us,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Bravo Company or Alpha Company came in and they did what we were doing, see this
would have been in April and in May,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then June we went back, and we’re up on the hill,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we, we got some more of this good duty, that’s what I called it, and I, I do
remember this, I don’t remember if it’s our last night on Ripcord or our next to last night, there
was a poker game going on, and it’s in one of the bunkers, and we jury-rigged these lights down
underneath there, you know you couldn’t see them from outside, but there was, I don’t know
four or five maybe even six men down there playing poker and I didn’t have enough money to
play poker but it was entertainment,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: You get to watch them, and I do remember our Captain at that time, he, he was loaning
people money, get them back in the game, he was taking IOU’s,
(48:00)
Veteran: And I can vaguely remember him saying something about this is a car payment, I'm
gonna make a car payment this month, and this is Captain Hewitt,
Interviewer: Because by this time Vazquez has been taken out of the field,
Veteran: Yeah,
Interviewer: Because he had been there too long already and now new Captain has come in to
replace him, do you have much of an impression of Captain Hewitt or did you not know him
well enough to know anything?
Veteran: Well see we were out in the jungle before we came up on Ripcord,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And that’s where I first got in, in contact with him, and we did travel in company
strength,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: A little more with him than we did with Vazquez,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But Captain, Captain Hewitt carried a, a pump shotgun and a 22 semi-automatic pistol,
and right off the bat this is odd, you know what, what kind of a guy have we got, you’ve got
impressions of a man that does something, I mean he’s going against the rules, you carry an M16 or a machine gun or a grenade launcher or something like that,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And here he’s got these and I, I can really feel we’re going on another rabbit hunt,
we’re, we’re going off in general we’re looking for rabbits and, I'm gonna say my first
impression of him, I was not real secure with him leading us,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But anyway in that poker game I know he won a lot of money and a lot of it was going
be on payday stakes and that kind of stuff,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And then that, might have been the next day or the day after that, we went to the ridge
line that 902’s on, and we landed, I'm guessing a half mile from it and we all went in there and
we secured the area and did all that stuff, and then next day we headed towards 902, I mean I had
no idea where our destination was,
(50:00)
Veteran: Or where they wanted us to go, I mean we got there and they said you know set up
camp and that’s a, that would have been on the afternoon, wasn’t July 1st, it a day before that,
Interviewer: Yeah June 30,
Veteran: Yeah, we’re out there and Ripcord starts taking mortar shells, that firebase is, I mean
this, this wasn’t probing this is, they’ve, they’ve been zeroing in guns for three months or two
months and these tubes were, they were hitting Ripcord, and you know we said something’s
going on, and we’re sitting there, a lot of us are watching it and a chinook helicopter came into
Ripcord with a sling load of something, and they had heavy machine guns set up somewhere
close because they shot this rascal down, they forced it down, didn’t, didn’t crash and burn right
then, and they sent another chinook out there to sling it up and carry it out of there, well they did
the same thing to it, they shot it down and you know we’re sitting there watching all this and go
wow, you know something, somethings going on, this, this is unusual and it was somewhere
right in there we could hear the sound of a mortar tube on the mountain that we’re on somewhere
�down near the bottom of it and its, it’s a long ways to the bottom of it and one of these mortar
tubes that’s firing on Ripcord just right down here and we, we, we’re talking this over you know
we’re trying to course where it’s at, till we can get some directions to them to fire artillery down
there, and I don’t remember if it was another sergeant or me and a,
(52:00)
Veteran: Just another squad member, but we, we gathered up a couple of LAW anti-tank missiles
and we went over to that side of the hill which is really right where my, my position was and I
fired one and he fired one and I’d be foolish to think that we knocked them out, but I do know
this, they quit firing,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I don’t, I really don’t think we hit them, that, I mean we just randomly shot them
and I mean this things got a range of like four-hundred meters and I mean we’re shooting this
thing is, it’s going way over a quarter of a mile away down the side of that mountain, I mean
you, you shoot it and you, you count to ten or fifteen before you hear the thing blow up down
there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: But I've always said they didn’t like us up there pinpointing where their mortar position
was,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: And now we’ve already spent a night there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And,
Interviewer: So now this is July 1st that you're doing the shooting LAWS then,
Veteran: Yes, this is July 1st when all this is going on and I've always kind of guessed they didn’t
like us being up there pinpointing where they're at,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I mean all during the day there's jets coming in dropping bombs, the F-4, the fast
movers, they're coming in and I, I seen some planes I’d never seen before come in there and drop
ordnance, but we’d never spent two night in a row in the same place,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Until then, and again Vazquez wouldn’t, I, I believe if the, if the Battalion Commander
would have told him to sit there a second night, he would have moved us fifty yards nothing else,
I mean we might still be right there close, but we would have moved,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(54:00)
Veteran: But we did not move, and they, well they came up and got us that night,
Interviewer: Okay, now did you dig new defensive positions or reuse the ones from the night
before?
Veteran: We didn’t move, we stayed right where we were,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I mean there was modifications made to them, make them, making them better,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: But now we’re, we’re right in the same place, we didn’t move, I mean we got a Captain
there with us, we’ve got two Lieutenants there with us and,
Interviewer: Did you have, well you had Bob Leibecke,
Veteran: Yup,
Interviewer: One of the platoons wasn’t there,
Veteran: Jim Campbell, my platoon leader he was on R and R,
Interviewer: Yeah but one whole platoon wasn’t there either, cause Sergeant Burkey
Veteran: Burkey was on Ripcord, yes, I think he’s third platoon,
Interviewer: Yeah so you got two platoons on there,
Veteran: Yeah,
Interviewer: And,
Veteran: Under strength,
�Interviewer: Yeah, yeah and then okay, so there wasn’t another Officer, but I know there was
forward artillery forward observer was up there
Veteran: Yeah that was a, three Officers,
Interviewer: Yeah and you had, was one platoon led by a Sergeant, or now is, because Campbell
wasn’t there,
Veteran: Right,
Interviewer: Right, okay so not very many men to start with,
Veteran: Yeah and short one Lieutenant,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And, and what, where I was getting with on that I mean there, there's three Lieutenants
there and who am I to say hey we’re really not staying here again,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I mean, I mean it wouldn’t have done any good anyway I don’t think,
�Interviewer: Okay, well alright so now it gets to be nightfall and then what happens?
Veteran: Well we set up our guard rotation like we’ve been doing for previous eight months that
I've been there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And there were three men positions, there may have been a few four man positions but
that was the most men at on position,
(56:01)
Veteran: And the average guard shift at my position was like an hour and fifteen minutes, and if
you got three guys there you can see you're not gonna get sleep just a couple of hours, two and a
half hours, and then you're gonna be woke up again and you’ll pull, you pulled about three hours,
or three guard shifts in a night, and I remember the Platoon Sergeant came over and woke me up
and it’s your turn, your guard shift,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That’s okay that’s cool, and I got up and its, it’s a routine you, you grab your rifle and
you grab your helmet and you move over by the claymore firing devices,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And, and we had a radio right there, and I'm listening on the radio and I hadn’t been up
fifteen minutes through, its 3:15 now, and somebody on the hill and I couldn’t identify them said
they had movement out in front of them, this is not unusual, there are animals all over Vietnam
and we’ve had movement many many times,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But you pay attention to it, you don’t just disregard it and say it is an animal, and I'm
listening to that okay, and somebody else is doing this too, they're saying yeah I've got
movement out in front of me, and it, it perks your ears up a little bit well now I got movement
out in front of me, and I got on the radio and I called the CP, I don’t know if it was Doc Cafferty
or who it was I was talking to in the CP, but I said we’ve got three positions that’s got movement
in front of them, we need to start waking people up and go at least a fifty percent alert, and I’ll
get back with you, okay, minute or two passed and he came back and he says yeah start waking
people up, I laid the, my mic down and,
(56:00)
Veteran: I started crawling back to where that Sergeant was and all hell broke loose as I started
over there, in his position there were three men and two of them were killed, the third one is a
�missing in action guy and I'm just speculating, when we got overrun and I, I'm just speculating
again I think that position there is where they overrun us from,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But when they left, I think they may have drugged this man off, thinking it was one of
their own if nothing else,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I, you know, I don’t know, and I know if you lose somebody in combat it’s a very
demoralizing thing, and they may have been thinking along them lines I, I really don’t know,
Interviewer: Yeah, they, they had a policy of trying to recover their bodies and part of it was they
didn’t want us to know how many we killed,
Veteran: And they were human beings, they, they worshiped, or they bowed down to God and
yeah, they believed in the hereafter and all that,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So they tried to recover their bodies too, but you know all three of their men were
wiped out right immediately,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: RPG or something, I don’t know it could have been a big satchel charge,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Something blew up right there in their, and then plus the Captain and his position was
hit immediately, and this gets back to, I really think they were probing us,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: In the daylight, and I, I don’t, they probably couldn’t believe their good fortune when
we stayed there the second day,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And they really got us probed because I mean they, they hit the CP and that, that just
wasn’t a random shot,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And plus that one position they took it out and I don’t know who it was over there at
that position, they did not die immediately, Ripcord was firing illumination for us,
(1:00:00)
Veteran: And when the lights were up and burning things got real quiet, and I mean you look
around and you see these shadows moving from that parachute coming down, and that makes the
shadows move,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I mean your eyes are just going back and forth you know what, is something
moving there, and no its just a shadow, but they did not keep the illumination up continuously,
they, they missed timed it a little bit, and sometimes the lights would go out, and when the,
Interviewer: Okay, alright this tape is about up so we’re gonna pause right here and the,
*Screen goes black*
Interviewer: Now we’ve gotten you to the point of the beat, the beat, onset of the attack on hill
902, I guess early morning hours on July 2nd 1970, so the first blast is gone off in your sector, the
hole you were just very close too, and you're talking about the, there's illuminations rounds
�dropping and the enemy moving around someplace, so what do you do yourself after that blast,
once the attack started?
Veteran: I threw two hand grenades, that’s the first thing I did, I mean I, there's things you do in
combat when, when, when somethings happening, every night when you go to bed you know
where your pistol belt, you know where your grenades are, you know where your helmet is and
you know where your rifle is, and okay I know there's a battle going on, I'm grabbing all these
things and I'm throwing two grenades, just right out in front of me just kind of left and right one,
and I blew a couple of claymore mines and now I've got my rifle and I'm trying to find a target
when the lights are on,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And this man to my left, and I, I don’t know who it was but they, they were in agony
(1:02:00)
Veteran: And the medic was right there with me and, and there are satchel charges going off all
over this hill just, you know I don’t know how many it was but dozens if not twenty-five or thirty
of them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Real quick like went off and he said, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go get him and I, I do
remember telling him hold one a minute, let’s get this, let’s get this thing under control then you
go help everybody, and this guy’s moaning over there, well he’s drawing satchel charges and
these things are going off ten or fifteen feet from us,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And you could tell when one landed close to this man the intensity of his screams got
really blood-curdling, anyway he says I've got to go help that man and he started to move and he
was shot and he died at my feet,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And this, this thing with the lights going off and on, this went on for an hour, hour and
a half I mean, untold satchel charges went off,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: If I was guessing I hate to say a thousand explosions were on that hill that night, but I
don’t think I’d miss very many, very much, it was just lots of them,
Interviewer: Now was there rifle fire too or just the satchel charges?
�Veteran: I remember very little rifle fire, I mean these were smart soldiers, there was
undoubtedly some, but at this point I mean, my ear drums were already broke,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Or I, when they tested me, I had one ear drum broken, the other one was just a, just a
loud ringing,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And, but a gun fire you could still hear it even when your, you still hear something,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(1:04:00)
Veteran: And I remember us, and I, I was disorientated a little bit about what was going on, to
me I mean we’re invincible there ain't nobody gonna do this to us,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There's enemy out in front wanting to do something to us and I'm gonna take care of
them, the enemy is in front of me, I had no idea we was already overrun, and I still didn’t put two
�and two together when a satchel charge hot my leg and I could feel it kind of bounce bounce
bounce off my leg coming towards me and I'm laying out, and I'm, I mean I immediately started
crawling forward just as fast as I could, and I'm hanging on to my helmet waiting for this thing to
blow up, and it was a dud, it didn’t blow up, I scooted myself back I still didn’t put two and two
together this came from behind me,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But just a few minutes later another one landed real close to me, I didn’t know it, and
when it blew up it blew me over the side of the hill and I lost all my spare ammo at that point, I
did keep my helmet and I kept my rifle and, and I remembered I just put a few magazine in my
rifle so I had a full magazine, but when I quit rolling around, I, I remember looking back over my
left shoulder and my fatigue pants were on fire, and I've always said I don’t know how close that
satchel charge was to me to actually set my pants on fire but it had to be close, but anyway, all I
could think about is they could see me, I mean I'm, I'm on fire, I got little flickering flames on
my fatigue pants, and this is when, the scaredist I've ever been in my life was at this point right
here, I took my hand and I started swatting these little flickering flames out,
(1:06:01)
Veteran: And I got them out, I put them out, but my hand could feel my leg but leg could not feel
my hand, and I did not know how bad I was hurting, and I'm telling you its, just sends chills up
my spine just thinking about that, but anyway I'm there with a full magazine, my legs fortunately
�I wasn’t hurting very bad, but it was numb and lights, the flare popped up there and I'm gonna,
I've got a soldier in front of me and I can remember, I can remember this man just plain as day he
reminded me of a puppet, as I was going pop pop pop pop pop, I could see his shoulder jerk I can
see a hip double up a little bit and, and I just go, pop pop pop pop and something said you don’t
have any more ammo, an di quit shooting and I remember reaching around and feeling the dust
cover on my M-16 and the bolt was closed, I thought I've got a bullet in the chamber, and I said
right then and there somebody’s gonna have to be trying to pick me up or stick a bayonet in me
before I shoot him again, and I know I've got at least one bullet left and come to find out that
when morning came and, the battle, the battle ended shortly after that,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They left, they pulled out and left and I probably had thirty to forty-five minutes of
darkness before daylight, and with my eardrums broke if anybody was saying anything I couldn’t
hear it and this was the new emotion I went through, I thought I was the only man left alive on
that hill, scaredist I've ever, this superseded that other scared thing I was at,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And, but I do know when daylight came, I,
(1:08:00)
�Veteran: I'm just kind of looking around and I seen a helmet, and that’s one of our, that’s one of
our kind of helmets, and it was a machine gun off to my right, and there was three guys there and
they, they seen me we did hi signs to each other and one of the assistant gunners started crawling
towards me and he had two grenades and had had the pins pulled on them but he’s crawling
towards me holding them grenades and I did, I've always said he looked just like John Wayne if
he had had a bayonet in his mouth but he didn’t have the bayonet, but he crawled up to me and
he said you know what, and I just pointed out and that’s, that’s the last place I seen any gooks is
right there, and he threw both his hand grenades there and they blew up, guys were starting to stir
then,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They picked me up and choppers were coming in and they carried me up to the hill and
I never seen so many bodies in my life as there was, we passed, and they were mostly gooks,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The enemy soldiers and I remember they threw me on the chopper, and they unloaded a
few men and then they threw the wounded, the wounded went first and then the dead went on the
next chopper and their third or fourth chopper, but they sent me, and the man named Mike
Mueller,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: We were together, we got back to the rear and they started ripping our clothes off and
dobbing us up with merthiolate, picking rocks and stuff out of us and then they sent us back to a
tent that had just cots in it, and we spent the rest of the day there and the next morning which
would be twenty-six hours after the battle we’re wondering about where do we get some food at,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the nurse said, its right there's a tent right there that they, they serve food,
(1:10:00)
Veteran: And me and this other guy we, we, we could walk and Mike you coming with us and
Mike said I, my leg is killing me, and he had shrapnel and all up and down from his ankle all the
way up to his shoulder on that one side, and okay we’ll bring you back something, we went, did
this and brought him back some food, well he didn’t feel like eating and got the nurse in there
and he’s telling her how his leg hurts and she said can you two guys help him down to the x-ray
tent which I swear is a block away and I, I, I said if we didn’t look like a mess hobbling down
there with him and anyway we took him into the x-ray tent and they were working on him and
doing what they have to do there, me and this other guy we’re looking at some of their x-ray
pictures that are hanging up there, they brought some more out we’re looking at them and you
see broken bones and what have you, well there was this one x-ray picture that showed a would
channel that was probably fourteen inches long, sixteen inches long and there is a pristine
�undeformed bullet right at the end of it, I, I said wow look at this, somebody had a bullet in them,
and this guy came in and said hey that’s your buddy, he’s got a bullet in him,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And anyway, they gurnied him out there on the table and he said Sergeant Moyer can
you go back to the tent and get my billfold and cigarettes, sure, I hobble up there, I get this stuff
and I come back and he is gone, he’s on a helicopter going somewhere,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Well a couple of days later they sent me to Cam Ranh Bay to rest and relaxation,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Convalescent type deal and as I went through Da Nang,
(1:12:01)
Veteran: I ran into a Sergeant that was doing the flight manifests and I told him this same story
and he said, I, give it to me I know what to do with that billfold that’s no big deal, and I thought
about I don’t know this man from Adam, there's, there's like eighty bucks in this billfold and you
know it’s got his ID card and a few other things, I said you know what the heck I'm gonna, I'm
�gonna put some faith in my fellow man, I gave it to him and I didn’t talk to Mike for twenty-five
years, it was about twenty-five years after the battle and I was talking to the man who wrote the
book,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Keith Nolan, talked to him for an hour and a half, two hours an di got to asking him
about who he interviewed, and Mike Mueller’s name came up and I says you’ve been talking to
Mike Mueller and he said yeah he lives up in Alaska, and I said yeah that’s same, same Mike
Mueller I know and he gave me his phone number and I remember calling Mike and you know
this is Sergeant Moyer and Mike stuttered terrible,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He, he was comical to be around, and after we introduced each other I said Mike did
you get your billfold, and he said it caught up to him about six months later in a hospital and he
said the money was in there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I said that’s a happy ending to a story right there,
Interviewer: Alright now as for you,
�Veteran: Yes,
Interviewer: Okay so you got, you went through Da Nang, you went down to Cam Ranh Bay,
Veteran: Yes,
Interviewer: Okay and then did you just convalesce there, or did you go someplace else or?
Veteran: No, when I left Da Nang and got to Cam Ranh Bay, well I had two months to go in the
service,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I, you know they're gonna send me home, no they're not they're gonna send me to
Cam Ranh Bay and, and recover and go back to my unit,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The only thing was the recovery took two months,
(1:14:01)
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And when I left Cam Ranh Bay, I only had like three or four days to go in the service
and I got back to my unit, the company clerk gave me a clipboard and I had no idea, you know
I've done, I had done this in the state sides and in Europe signed off a post,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You go to the library, the barber shop, anybody you’ve done business with you sign off
if you don’t owe them no money or anything like that and he handed me this and I said we’ve got
some of these things on Camp Evans you know like a, well a barber shop,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And there was a, a massage parlor there and, and I had to go get signatures you know,
of course you’ve gotta go through the supply room, the arms room, and I, I did all that, it didn’t
take long but got to the arms room and I did have problems there, a man said you need to turn
your rifle in, and I said I have no idea not a clue where my rifle is and, and I had to explain to
him what happened when I was wounded, I said they didn’t, they didn’t give me a rifle to ride
that chopper back home with, my rifle is on hill 902 is the last place I seen it, and he said well we
gotta sit down and fill out some more paperwork, it is a combat loss, and but that, that’s all that
that amounted to but he made me a little nervous,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: When he asked me for my rifle and he said we got a problem, but it was just had to do
some paperwork, combat loss,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright so now you're pretty much back in one piece but you're also out
of time so,
Veteran: Still got one day to go,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: First Sergeant came to me and he says go to the arms room, check out a 45 and get
some ammo for it and I want you to go down to the chopper pad,
(1:16:00)
Veteran: We’ve got these coolers and they're full of sirloin steaks, I don’t know a half dozen
coolers, he said I want you to make sure they get out to Firebase O’Reilly, that’s where our
company’s at, they're doing perimeter guard on it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And they’ve got the barbecue grill thing set up out there and see that every man gets at
least one and there should be enough for every man to get two, and I thought damn I’m going
back out to the field, but I said I'm gonna get to see my guys,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: This is gonna be worth it, and this is probably around noon or one o’clock and chopper
came in and we loaded them on there, we flew out there and we’re doing the barbecue and I'm
going down to the bunker where my squad was and I'm talking to them and they're telling me
about some of the things that happened right after 902,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And you know, you know how much time they got left to go and be glad when this is
over and I said well I know what you're saying and I am glad that its over for me, well I, I
lollygagged around talking to these guys and it got near five or six o’clock I don’t remember
what the exact time was, but I went back up to the flight pad and I asked somebody up there, I
said when’s the, when’s the next chopper gonna be out here, and he said tomorrow morning, I
said you mean there's no more choppers coming out here tonight, he said no you're gonna spend
the night out here, I said you gotta be kidding me, well anyway I went back down to where my
guys were and I said yeah you're not gonna believe this I got to spend another night here, well
they had a mad minute that night if you know what a mad minute is, that’s where they test the
firing of all the different positions to make sure there's not something that’s not covered, I, I
�think there’s somebody up there in a helicopter a long ways away but they can watch what’s
going on,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And they can see if they need to adjust any of the positions and all that,
(1:18:00)
Veteran: But for one minute you get to fire your weapons, you don’t get to thrown grenades and
you don’t get to blow your claymore mines but you, they want to see where the firings going to
and it’s about one o’clock in the morning they pop the rad flare right up there and I mean that hill
lit up and I got my 45 and I'm John Wayneing it just firing it all over the, till I'm out of bullets
and, and that’s that, went to bed,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Pulled the shift guard and next morning I got on a chopper, went back to Evans got on a
helicopter went to Da Nang, and got manifested on a flight, and we roll down the runway and we
was just screaming and hollering and whoppy indeed, I mean we were happy that plane got off
the ground and somebody said get this thing out over the ocean,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Get it away from this country, and, and I know all the stops I had when I went over
there, we were virtually non-stop going back,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It, it, I mean it was a long flight, I was surprised the plane could go that far without refueling but,
Interviewer: So where did you go to in the States?
Veteran: Back to where I started, Fort Lewis
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And got that, you, that old steak dinner that everybody in Vietnam got, when we got
there, we did some really, they were not very thorough physicals,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Checked our teeth and a few, if you get, it didn’t amount to a bunch,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And went back to the barracks and they said take your boots and tie the shoelaces
together, throw them out in the middle of the floor and your fatigues and all that stuff and you
can go home and yeah, I went home in my dress greens,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And a lot of guys, there were big piles of clothes and stuff there,
(1:20:00)
Veteran: Well I knew I’d be going deer hunting, I had a father-in-law hat loved to deer hunt and I
know, so I went back there, and I found me two pairs of boots that were my size,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I put them in my, and I remember the last place we had to check out of was the
Reenlistment Officer, the guy that wants you to sign on for another tour of this,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And that’s when I told him I said done, y’all taught me how to dance and then you took
me to the dance and I want no more dancing and he kind of laughed and he said I understand
�and, but then it was right then they said do not deviate from your plane leaving this place here
whether you get on the green bus that’s going to the train station or the yellow bus that’s going to
the airport or something,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There was another color bus too, he says do not get off this bus, the protesters are right
outside the gate, and I thought you know I, I was so ni-, I didn’t even realize that kind of stuff
was going on,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I thought what in the hell are they protesting, what I mean we, we didn’t do
anything wrong and, and that’s something else I want to put this on the end of this, one of the
things I'm most proud of, there's a couple of things, my entire squad made it home, some of them
shot up pretty bad but nobody died and the other thing is I do not remember anything we did that
would be called an atrocity,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We did what soldiers did, and I, I've always kind of felt like this is, helped me with my,
my own personal healing process of Vietnam,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright, now at this point you've completed your enlistment, so you did,
do you get discharged or do you have to go someplace else for that?
Veteran: I'm done,
Interviewer: Okay, you're out,
Veteran: I left Fort Lewis I was done,
Interviewer: Alright, so now that you're out what did you wind up doing?
(1:22:00)
Veteran: Well you know I had mustering out pay, I had a little bit of money not a lot and from
September to middle part of December this money lasted,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And my father-in-law and, and his wife they're, they're getting kind of nervous about
aren’t you actually gonna try to find a job, and alright I guess I gotta get a job, well I went down
and I, and I was probably, it’s probably the first piece but I applied for unemployment and they
said well you can get it for a while but not very long, you know okay, and then it didn’t amount
�to much anyway, but I remembered what I told that Enlistment Officer when I signed up that I
had an uncle that worked for the phone company,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I thought I might wanna do that, I went down to the local place here in Springfield,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The phone office and I put in an application and they said can you come back in a, I
think it was on a Friday, come back Monday and we’ll do some testing, and I did and this testing
lasted two weeks and all of a sudden I'm getting paid for this, and I'm thinking now wait you
know I haven’t even been hired and I'm getting a paycheck and, and I remember my clerk at that
time at the phone company she asked if I was a Vietnam Vet and I said yeah I just, just really just
came from Vietnam, and she says well we’re gonna apply you into an on-the-job training
program the government will compensate you some money, and well hey I’ll bite this, go ahead
and apply for it, well that lasted, well I didn’t get anything from that until six months after the
phone company did hire me,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And at the end of the six months I got this check,
�(1:24:00)
Veteran: It looked like a, a tax refund check and I thought what in the hell is this all about, and
oh I was just grinning at the number, what it was, it was like a hundred and twenty bucks a
month but its six months’ worth of it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Now I'm, I'm pretty poor back then, I mean we’re living payday to payday and I've just
got this monster check and I went to work the following, and I asked this clerk about this, she
said oh yeah that’s an on-the-job training, they're gonna supplement your income and every time
we give you a raise that’s gonna to get docked a little bit, and you get this for two years, well
okay the next six months it was a little less,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Next six months it was a little less and the next six, I think the last one it was fifty or
sixty dollars a month, but it was a very neat deal,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Didn’t even know I was gonna get it and I got it and it, and that was tax free money,
that’s,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Huge, it wasn’t, you didn’t have to list that as income, but, but I wound up spending
thirty years with the phone company,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Kind of liked it,
Interviewer: Now did you always stay in this area, kind of Missouri Arkansas,
Veteran: Missouri,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: And southern Missouri, mostly I did get over to Boot Hill worked a little while over
there and I got up to Kansas City and worked a little while up there, but always wound up back
in the Springfield area,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And I was a lineman, a cable splicer, a repairman, and I was an installer, did a lot of
different things,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I know now, I don’t know a lot of Vietnam vet don’t like to be around people,
don’t like to be in an office with a lot of people around them and you know, and we just, we just
didn’t like being in a crowd, that was, and me being with the phone company,
(1:26:00)
Veteran: Working by myself about you know, I, I did have to go up knock on a door to say hey
I'm here to fox your phone and what have you,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Or if I was splicing, I'm, I'm out in the ditch putting the cable together, but that’s by
myself, and I always said that I felt like this helped me adjust a little bit,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I did, I didn’t get any negative feedbacks is what I'm saying,
�Interviewer: Right, alright I guess now kind of look back at the time you spent in, in the service
and sort of as a whole not just Vietnam, what do you think you took out of it or how did it affect
you positively or negatively?
Veteran: Well I’ll say this for the military, they taught me how to live payday to payday, they
taught me how to budget my money I mean when I was a private, it, its gotta last thirty days,
ain't nobody gonna give you no money, and they taught me how to manage a paycheck, and that
one of the best things that I think, of course I think I grew up faster than I wanted too, it’s you
know I've never been responsible for other people, even when I was in Germany I didn’t feel like
I was responsible for the guys, I was just the direct them with me, but in Vietnam I did feel
responsible for them men, and you can’t help but worry about you know you get a new guy, you
know how is he gonna fit in and is he gonna, is he gonna pull a bonehead and get somebody hurt,
or what have you, and that’s a neat thing to, to experience that makes you nervous at first and
when you, when you get these new people but, I’ll say this, 101st is an outstanding outfit, I think
it’s the most prestigious outfit in all of military, Marines, Navy, whatever, and very proud to
have had serve with them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, and you brought all your men back,
Veteran: All, you know when I went home, I still had my, but I found out later,
(1:28:00)
�Veteran: They all, they all made it home, then Lexi, boy they, there's a bunch of them shot up
pretty bad,
Interviewer: Alright well, it’s a good story and I appreciate you taking the time to tell it to me
today,
Veteran: Thank you Jim,
(1:28:16)
�
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Veterans History Project
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
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The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_MoyerJ1962V
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Moyer, Jerry (Interview transcript and video), 2016
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2016-10-06
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Jerry Moyer was born in Springfield, Missouri, in 1948, moved to Omaha, Nebraska, in 1958 where he graduated high school. Moyer enlisted in the Army in 1967 before he could recieve a draft notice and underwent signals training and learned to string telephone wires. He was then sent to Germany where he was stationed with a mechanized infantry battalion of the 4th Armored Division in Crailsheim. When he was promoted to sergeant in 1969, Moyer's specialization was changed to infantry and he was evetually deployed to Vietnam, joining C Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101 st Aiborne Division. His unit participated in the establishment of Firebase Ripcord and the defense of Hill 902 when Moyer was injured and sent to the rear.
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Moyer, Jerry Dale
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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eng
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/80f27b7ddc1af78de75257628d611299.mp4
e93fdaf5967418fcaa0a64fed443753a
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6672d18c2d77438be1675ffc0808669a.pdf
89bd02d120fa5ad06f4f37e233372781
PDF Text
Text
Meyer, J.P.
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam War
Interviewee’s Name: J.P. Meyer
Length of Interview: (1:45:58)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “All right, J.P., start us out with some background on yourself, and to begin
with, where and when were you born?”
I was born January 5th, 1947 in Marshalltown, Iowa.
Interviewer: “All right. Now did you grow up there, or did you move around?”
I grew up on a dairy farm in a small community about twenty-five miles north of Marshalltown
called Wellsburg, Iowa.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what part of Iowa is that in?”
Central part.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and did you finish high school?”
I did.
Interviewer: “When did you graduate?”
1965.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you do after you got out of high school?”
I enrolled at South Dakota State University in pre-pharmacy.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then how long did you stay there?”
I was there until April of 1968.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you complete your program there, or…?”
I completed it after my active duty army time. (1:02)
Interviewer: “Okay, and so how is it that you wound up in the army?”
�Meyer, J.P.
I dropped out of school, and I wanted to fly. I had taken flying lessons while I was at South
Dakota State. So I actually went down to the Air National Guard unit in Sioux Falls and got on
their wait list for pilot training. I was number 102 on the wait list, so it didn’t look very likely
that I was going to go to Air Force pilot training. And they required four years of college. The
army would allow you to go through the warrant officer flight training program if you had a
certain number of semester hours of college credit, which I had, so I went down to the post office
in Brookings, South Dakota on April 26th and enlisted in the army for the warrant officer flight
training program.
Interviewer: “All right. Now a lot of people probably don’t even know what a warrant
officer is, so can you explain that?”
Well, warrant officers are—I guess you would consider them technical type officers. They were
in the supply field, logistics, and, of course, during the Vietnam War, most of the warrant
officers were helicopter pilots. (2:10)
Interviewer: “All right, and how do they compare with standard commissioned officers?”
We were below the regular commissioned officers. There were—At the time, there were four
grades of warrant officer. They’ve since expanded it as I understand it, but back then there was—
The grades were W-1 through W-4.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and you could do this without going through all of the things
involved in becoming an officer, but you still get your own things.”
Yes, yes. Yeah, we went through a different type of program.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay. Now when you signed up, how many years were you signing up
for?”
You know, I honestly don’t remember. We had our obligation after flight training, but I can’t
remember exactly what it was.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so now where do they send—Now do you do a regular army
basic training first, or did they send you—”
I went to basic training at Fort Polk, Louisiana in August. It was very hot, and from there—when
we finished basic training—I went to Fort Wolters, Texas for primary helicopter school.
Interviewer: “Okay, so the training at Fort Polk. That was standard army basic training?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So what was that like other than hot?”
�Meyer, J.P.
It was miserable. It was—After I’d been to Fort Polk for about six weeks, I—You just—You’re
so entrenched in basic training. You really don’t think about anything else. It was—It was hot
and, like I said, pretty miserable.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, how did the instructors treat you?”
Like a typical drill sergeant back in that day and age. They’d be in your face, screaming. You’d
be standing at attention. They didn’t physically touch us or hurt us, but you were always thinking
that they would if they had to. That’s kind of how—That’s what the environment was like back
then.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how much of the emphasis was just on drill and discipline?”
(4:00)
All of it. Basically, you did what the army told you to do, and they were, I guess, developing a
mindset of what they were looking for in a soldier.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you training alongside people who were draftees, or were
they all enlistees? Or do you not know?”
There was a mix. We had a lot of draftees.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how did the other guys respond to the treatment?”
We had a couple of guys that—We had one particular guy from Mississippi who was a little on
the heavy side, and I know on one of our marches he just fell out. He couldn’t go anymore. But
everybody was kind of in their own world and struggled to get through it. They—The
environment just gives you a certain mindset like, “Okay, here’s what we’re going to do next.”
And then you always look forward to getting through for the day, so you could get some rest.
And, of course, the barracks were un-air-conditioned, and you’d wake up with your sheets wet in
the morning from sweating all night. It was hot.
Interviewer: “All right. Now how long did that last?”
Eight weeks.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then your next step from there?”
From basic training I went to Fort Wolters, Texas. They took us by bus from Fort Polk,
Louisiana to Fort Wolters. And we got to Fort Wolters, and the TAC officer as they were called
got on the bus and was wearing a shiny helmet liner, carrying a—I think it was some kind of 40
mm round all polished up. And tapping it in his hand and being very nice. And saying,
“Welcome, gentlemen to Fort Wolters, Texas. You’re here for your basic, primary helicopter
training.” And then he just started screaming at us, and he says, “Now you have twenty seconds
to get your you know what off this bus and get in formation.” (6:01) And we were in formation
in the street, and it was hot in Texas during—in August and September. And we had one
�Meyer, J.P.
gentleman who was prior service as they say. Had medals on and had a—I think he was a staff
sergeant actually. And the drill sergeant came by and ripped his medals off his shirt and ripped
the stripes off his sleeve, and he says, “You’re now a warrant officer candidate, and you’re lower
than whale shit on the bottom of the ocean.” So it was—The first four weeks of helicopter—
primary helicopter school are—I guess you’d call it indoctrination. We didn’t fly. We went to
class, and we were harassed a lot. Middle—Inspections in the middle of the night. Get out in the
street. You’re standing out there in the dark at two o’clock in the morning in formation, and
they’re going through and inspecting the troops. The TAC officer would, and then he’d tell you,
“You’ve got five minutes to get back upstairs, change into your class A’s, and get back out
here.” So we’d go change uniforms and come right back out and get inspected again. That lasted
for the first four weeks, and then once we started flight training, we had to get crew rest. They
were required to give us a certain number of hours of sleep before we could do anything else,
and so the harassment wasn’t nearly as intense after that.
Interviewer: “All right. Now the—So what are you actually learning in the first four
weeks?”
Well, you’re learning—In class we’re learning about the helicopter and how it’s built, how it
operates. Learning basic flying information. Navigation, what air speed means, and things like
that. And you learn a certain amount of—They went through the checklist, and we’d learn how
to start the helicopter. We’d learn how to preflight it. Look for defects. (8:01)
Interviewer: “So were you getting into helicopters but not flying them, or…?”
No, we weren’t. We weren’t allowed on the flight line the first four weeks. We had one
individual who was in our barracks, and, as I recall, his name was Jackie Wilson from Fort
Worth. We had our helmets issued to us, and we had them up on the top of our lockers. And one
day after class, Jackie got his helmet out, and everybody asked him, “What are you doing?” He
says, “Well, I’m going flying.” And he went to the flight line, and he got in a TH-55. And he got
it started. I think—as I recall—he had to have a maintenance man help him get it started. And he
got it up to flying speed and picked it up to a hover. And, of course, he didn’t know how to fly a
helicopter, but now he’s at a hover in a TH-55. And, from what I’m told, he—Actually, what he
thought was—It started vibrating real bad, and there’s a condition called ground resonance in a
TH-55. And the solution for that is to get it off the ground. Pick it up. He thought he was getting
into ground resonance, so he picked it up to a hover. And now he’s at a hover, and obviously he
doesn’t know how to fly a helicopter because he hasn’t been trained yet. And they say he got it
back to the ground, and he bounced on one skid, bounced on the other skid, and then turned it on
its side and destroyed it. He survived, and I think—as I recall—he got court martialed. So that
was an interesting event in our first four weeks of pilot training at Fort Wolters.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now—So for the rest of you—Now did people wash out of
those first four weeks, or did everyone get through?”
Not that I recall. I think we all—We all made it through the first four weeks.
�Meyer, J.P.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so now they actually put you in a helicopter, and do you
start flying right away at least with an instructor, or…?”
Mm-hmm.
Interviewer: “Okay, so how does that process work?” (10:00)
Well, we all go out to the—We went out to the flight line. We each were assigned to an
instructor, and my instructor was the flight commander. So I—A lot of the students flew to the
stage field. We went from the main heliport in Fort Wolters to different stage fields for training
for—to practice. And my—And many of the students were bused out. My instructor was the
flight commander, so he and I got in a helicopter—and that was my first helicopter ride in the
military—and flew from there to the stage field, which was north of Fort Wolters about—oh, I’m
guessing—seven or eight or nine miles.
Interviewer: “Okay. Were you using a TH-55 at that point?”
I was in the Hiller OH-23.
Interviewer: “Okay. Describe that as what—as a machine relative to the TH-55 or
something else.”
The Hiller is probably fifty percent larger than the TH-55. The TH-55 was a very small
helicopter. The Hiller was—had a bubble like the old Bell helicopters. When I describe the
helicopters that I flew back then, I ask people if they remember the old TV show, The
Whirlybirds, because it had the big, glass bubble. It was a two-seat helicopter with a
reciprocating engine. Had a tail boom that slanted up—the TH-55’s tail boom went straight
back—and it was a two-bladed helicopter and vibrated a lot. My first impression when the
instructor picked the helicopter up to a hover—I felt like I was trying to balance—And I wasn’t
flying it, but the sensation I had was trying to stand on top of a basketball on a pogo stick. That’s
what it felt like. So I—You know, your thought is, “How am I ever going to learn to fly this
machine?” But we did.
Interviewer: “Okay, so how does he go about teaching you?”
We’d go out to a stage field that had—I think they each had four lanes, and you would hover
down a lane. He’d teach you to hover first, and we did it off to the side of the lanes. (12:05) And
you could tell students who—when a student was flying and when an instructor was flying
because when the student—New students would take the controls. You’d see the helicopter start
to drift in all different directions and back and side and forward, and all of a sudden it would go,
“Whoop.” Right back to where it started. And you knew the instructor took the controls at that
point. And you just basically did that over and over until you got the feel for how to fly a
helicopter, and it kind of became a natural thing like when you try to learn to ride a bike.
Interviewer: “All right, and so how long then were you doing that?”
�Meyer, J.P.
We were—Well, the entire primary helicopter phase lasted from—I guess we started flying in
September, and we finished, as I recall, in late December. And we learned to hover, and then we
would take off and fly traffic patterns. And, after a while, when the instructor felt like you were
safe enough, he would get out, and you’d have your first solo. And I think I soloed a
helicopter—I think I had nine hours of flight time. And I remember being at Downwind the first
time I soloed, looking down and flying this machine that was shaking and thinking, “What in the
hell are you doing up here, Meyer? You don’t know how to operate this machine.” But I got it
back on the ground safely, and, after a while, it just became very natural.
Interviewer: “All right, and in that level of training, did other people have accidents, or did
everyone get through?”
There were accidents. There were mid-air collisions. I was—We were on a night flight—a solo
night flight—one time, and there was a student in a TH-55 that apparently was lost. (14:04) I
was coming into Wolters main from the north, and they were talking about him on the radio. But
they couldn’t get him to reorient himself, and then I saw a flash of light off to the east. And he
had flown through some high tension wires, and the aircraft hit the ground and exploded. He was
burned very badly. He survived the crash but died in the hospital.
Interviewer: “Do you think you were better off because you had the commander train you?
Was he—”
No, all the instructors were extremely talented people. Good helicopter pilots, good instructor
pilots. Some of them were a little more aggressive than others, and the—Excuse me. And the
commander just flew to the stage field with me. He wasn’t my regular instructor.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay. All right, so now when you complete that, now do you move on
to more advanced helicopters?”
When we completed our training at Fort Wolters, we moved to Fort Rucker, Alabama, and we
started out in the Bell TH-13 in instrument training. We did our instrument training there at Shell
field outside of Enterprise, Alabama, and then, once we finished instrument training, we moved
on to tactical training. And that was done in Hueys. We learned to fly the Huey.
Interviewer: “Now with the instrument training are you actually flying a helicopter and
relying on instruments, or are you on the ground?”
No, you’re in the helicopter under a hood, and flying just by reference to the instruments. You’re
actually not qualified—As a student, we weren’t actually qualified in the TH-13. We just flew it
with an instructor for instrument training, and all of that training was with an instructor. There
was no solo time.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, but then you move on to the Huey. Now how is a Huey
different from the other things you had flown?”
�Meyer, J.P.
It was a lot bigger, and it had—It was a much more modern helicopter. Had better instruments.
(16:03) And it was fully instrumented in terms of flying in the clouds and just a lot bigger,
heavier machine. And it had a turbine engine instead of reciprocating engine, and a reciprocating
engine helicopter—Part of what you have to do when you fly it is manage the RPM, and you do
that manually with a throttle that’s on the collective. In a Huey, it had a governor on the turbine
engine, which would maintain a certain RPM, so you didn’t have to worry about twisting a
throttle. You just pulled—You pulled pitch, and as you pulled pitch, the engine would develop
more power to compensate for the increased power requirement.
Interviewer: “All right, and—So how long now do you spend at Fort Rucker?”
Well, we spent the rest of our training at Fort Rucker, and we graduated in May of 1970. Or—
I’m sorry. ‘69. 1969. And then I went from flight training direct to Chinook transition. When I
was at Fort Wolters, we had a Chinook fly over the field one day, and I was just fascinated with
that helicopter. And I like big machinery. And so I went in to see my TAC officer, which is not
something you typically did back then. You didn’t want to see your TAC officer. But I went in to
see him and asked him how I could get into Chinooks. He said, “Well, Meyer, I’ll tell you what.
Here’s how it works. You’re going to graduate from pilot training, you’re going to fly Hueys in
Vietnam, and if you survive that year, you can come back and we’ll send you to Chinook
transition if that’s what you want to do. And then we’ll send you back to Vietnam to fly
Chinooks for a year.” And I said, “Well, some students get Chinook training right out of pilot
training.” He said, “Oh, yeah, if you graduate first in your class, you might get a Chinook
transition.” (18:02) So I said, “Thank you. That’s all I wanted to know.” And I started gunning,
studying—I had a pilot’s license when I went to the army, so I basically knew how to fly. And I
started studying under the covers at night with a flashlight in the barracks after lights out. And I
graduated first in my class when we finished at Fort Rucker, and we got one Chinook allocation.
So I took it, and what that did—The army decided not long before we graduated that if you got a
certain transition—and Chinook was one of them—you had to sign up voluntary indefinite
status, which means the army had you as long as they wanted you. But I thought the trade-off
was worth it, so I—I had some of my classmates ask me, “Now what are you going to do,
Meyer?” I said, “I’m going voluntary indefinite because I’m going to Chinook transition.”
Because by then you’d heard about all the—We had heard about all the Hueys—Well, I knew
when I went into helicopters that it was very risky, and it was an automatic ticket pretty much to
going to Vietnam. Flying helicopters. So I thought flying Chinooks would be a lot safer than
flying Hueys.
Interviewer: “All right, so now do you go—then go on to Chinook training?”
I went to Chinook transition and then went to Vietnam in August of 1969.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, so August of ‘69. So, I guess, when we were—I don’t know—
originally recording your dates—And so you would’ve enlisted in ‘68 then?”
I enlisted in ‘68. Yes.
�Meyer, J.P.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Okay, so the Chinook transition—I mean, how long does
that take, or how complicated was that?” (20:06)
It was—As I recall it, it was a six-week transition. Six or seven weeks. Well, the Chinook’s a
very large helicopter—has two engines, two rotor systems—and it’s not a conventional
helicopter. It’s a tandem rotor helicopter, so it flies a little bit differently. In most respects, it’s
easier to fly because you don’t have the anti-torque system to worry about. It had a stabilization
system because the rotors are equal in size, so the back rotor wants to fly as fast as the front
rotor. So without the stabilization system, it became very unstable and yaw, and it was a little bit
tricky. Boeing made some design changes to it when they developed the B and C model, but the
A model was pretty squirrely as we call it if the stabilization system was turned off.
Interviewer: “All right. Now over the course of your training, you’ve been in Texas, you’ve
been in Alabama, and where do they do the Chinook training?”
Alabama. Fort Rucker.
Interviewer: “Alabama. Okay. Now you’re in—You’re now, you know—You’re now down
south. You’re in the area that is sort of still in the process of desegregating. I mean, did you
notice a different way of life in those places, or did you just stay focused on what you were
doing?”
Not then. I noticed that after I got back from Vietnam and was stationed at Fort Rucker.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, but at this point it’s just all helicopters?”
All concentrated on learning to fly helicopters and being in the military.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now once you complete the Chinook training, do you get some time off
before you go to Vietnam, or…?” (22:00)
I had a month of leave before I left for Vietnam.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you just go back home at that point?”
Mm-hmm. Went back home to Iowa.
Interviewer: “All right. Now how did your family feel about your heading off to Vietnam?”
Well, when I signed up, I didn’t ask my parents, and thinking back, when my son was my age
when I signed up—Thinking about him doing that, I realized how much stress I created for my
parents. My dad—Of course, I’d already signed up, so there wasn’t anything that anybody could
do about it. But he was concerned. He said, “Don’t you know they’re shooting them—those
helicopters down?” And I said, “Yeah, I know, but if your time is up, your time is up.” That was
kind of my—I had a fatalistic attitude at that point, I guess.
�Meyer, J.P.
Interviewer: “All right, and as you’re preparing to go to Vietnam, how much did you know
about what was going on over there?”
During the month that I was home on leave, Khe Sanh was under siege, and I was glued to the
TV watching those events daily.
Interviewer: “Okay, because Khe Sanh was in 1968.”
But it was—Well, maybe it was ‘68 when I was—before I entered. That may have been before I
entered.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, so you’re aware of that, and then ‘69 there was Hamburger Hill
that summer and that sort of thing. But regardless, you’re watching—But you are. You’re
watching the news at that point.”
Yeah, realizing that I’m going to be over there in thirty days.
Interviewer: “All right. Now how do they physically get you to Vietnam?”
I got on a flight in Des Moines and flew to California—the Oakland Overseas Replacement
Station—and got on a Stretch 8. DC-8. And we flew to—It was either Okinawa or Guam. I think
it was Okinawa. To refuel. From California. (24:20) It was the first airplane ride I ever was on
that had a movie, and the movie was Support Your Local Sheriff! with James Garner. I still
remember that, and I’ve got that video at home. And we landed at—We landed in Saigon at Tan
Son Nhut Air Force Base, and—I don’t know—I guess my thought was when we got off the
airplane, there would be rockets landing and bullets flying. And it was just hot, and it stunk. And
then we went through Overseas Replacement training with 101st Airborne Division.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you do that down at Saigon, or did you get up to where the
101st was first?”
We did that in Saigon. They had a training location there. They called it SERTS. Screaming
Eagle Replacement Training.
Interviewer: “All right, and what did that actually consist of?”
Oh, indoctrination about the Viet Cong and the NVA. How they would set booby traps. I think
we actually went on a mini patrol while we were there. They had a—They had wooden bleachers
and had an instructor on a short stage out in front of us—probably twenty feet in front of us—
and he was talking about how the Vietnam would sneak up on you and throw satchel charges and
booby traps. (26:11) And then he kind of led up to it dramatically, and then he kicked a—In front
of him against a wooden—Like a 2x6 or something. We couldn’t see it from our side, but there
was a little detonator there. And he kicked that, and they would—They had grenade simulators,
and he’d explode those. And it just scared the bejesus out of us. Pretty sudden. And I actually
heard after I got—after I talked to some of the guys that I trained in helicopter training with—
that we had two students from my class that were sitting in the front row, and the Viet Cong had
�Meyer, J.P.
snuck in there the night before and put live grenades—What he would do is he’d take a fake
grenade, he’d pull the pin, and throw it out in front of—right in front of the students or the
troops. And they’d snuck in and put live grenades in his box. So he pulled a pin on a live grenade
and threw it out and killed one of my helicopter classmates. So that was the harsh reality of
Vietnam from the start.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so now once you go through that training, now what
happens?”
Well, we got together in a group, and we got our assignments. And when they called my name,
they said, “Meyer, you’re going up to Charlie Company 159th Aviation Battalion in I Corps.”
(28:16) And I said, “101st? They don’t have helicopters.” And there was a—There was a guy—a
group of guys that were going home, and somebody overheard me say that. He says, “Yes, they
do. I just came from there.” So I went up to Phu Bai and joined the Charlie Company. The 159th.
Interviewer: “Okay. How do they get you to Phu Bai?
As I recall, we got there in a C-130.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so military transport plane. Okay, and then what kind of reception do
you get when you join your unit?”
You get welcomed to the unit, and here’s your room. They put me in a room that was vacant, and
there was a set of fatigues in the closet. The fatigues were—had the name Dives on it, and I said,
“Who’s Dives?” And the guy that checked me in said, “You don’t have to worry about that.”
And he took the fatigues out. Well, Tom Dives had been killed in a midair collision just—I think
just a couple of weeks before I got there. So they moved me into his room because it was empty.
Interviewer: “So did you have private rooms in the barracks?”
We each had a roommate. We were two to a hooch we called it. The buildings were plywood.
There were, I think, four rooms on each side of each building, so there were sixteen pilots in one
building. And we had a total of thirty-two pilots as I recall, so we had two buildings in the—what
we called the officers’ area. (30:01) We had a little officers’ club and the two barracks, and then
our commander had his own barracks building.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so there’s four companies in the battalion. Is that right?”
There’s three—There’s four companies. There were three Chinook companies in the 159th
Battalion and a crane company that was located in Da Nang.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so—But your three companies were basically together?”
All at Phu Bai.
Interviewer: “Yeah, all at Phu Bai. Okay, and then how many aircraft—”
�Meyer, J.P.
I’m sorry. The Charlie Company was at Phu Bai. Alpha and Bravo Companies were at Camp
Eagle.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you were at the Phu Bai airport, and they were at Camp—Because
Camp Eagle is near Phu Bai, but it’s not the same.”
Correct. Yeah, not the same location.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. All right, so you’ve got your own—Again, how many
aircraft did you have?”
Sixteen.
Interviewer: “Okay, so sixteen, and would you—And then, with the thirty-two pilots then,
if all sixteen were flying, all of you would be flying.”
Technically, we could man all the aircraft.
Interviewer: “Yeah, because you had to have a pilot and a copilot for each one.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now how quickly do you start flying?”
As I recall, we were flying within a week.
Interviewer: “And how do they work in the new guys?”
You flew with an experienced aircraft commander initially. You were called a peter pilot, and
you had to have a certain number of hours before you would qualify to be an aircraft
commander. I can’t remember what—I think it was a hundred. Can’t remember exactly what that
hour requirement was. But if you—We became short on aircraft commanders to man the aircraft
for the missions, so if you had a certain amount of experience and were considered safe to do so,
you were named first pilot. (32:09) So you flew—You were technically the aircraft commander,
but you weren’t logging aircraft commander time because you didn’t have enough time to do
that, so you were logging first pilot time with a copilot.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you’re starting out with the aircraft commander, they’re
going to gradually give you more responsibility where—so you’d start to do more of the
actual flying in that period. Now under normal circumstances, what does a copilot actually
do?”
Monitor the systems. Monitor the rotor RPM and the gauges and do a certain amount of flying.
And as you spent more time there, you flew more and more. You typically didn’t talk on the
radio. That was the aircraft commander’s job. We all had nicknames, and I got my nickname—it
�Meyer, J.P.
was Lurch—one day when my aircraft commander was busy talking to the crew and one of the
other aircraft was asking my aircraft commander a question or something about something. And
I answered on the radio, and apparently my voice was very deep. And the other aircraft
commander said, “Who is that? It sounds like Lurch.” And that’s how I got my nickname.
Interviewer: “And you’re referring to the character in The Addams Family TV series?”
Yes, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now so when do you actually start flying in Vietnam? What
month was it when you were doing that?”
Well, I started flying in August of ‘69.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now was there a lot of stuff going on at that point, or were things
quieting down?” (34:11)
At that point in time, as I recall, we were doing a lot of missions out into the A Shau Valley, and
Firebase Rendezvous was the main firebase in the A Shau Valley that we resupplied. And then
we resupplied Birmingham and Berchtesgaden as I recall. There were two firebases before we
would get out to the A Shau.
Interviewer: “Yeah, because you have them in the chain of hills that separates the A Shau
from the coastal plain, and that’s where those bases were. But Rendezvous was in it. Now
was it dangerous to fly into the A Shau?”
It didn’t feel like it at the time honestly. There weren’t—When they sent Chinooks out on what
they considered dangerous missions, they would send two Cobra gunships with us, and I don’t
recall ever needing escort for that first six months I was there.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, I think—So, well, August would be after Hamburger Hill when
a lot of the NVA had kind of pulled out or pulled back for the time being.”
Yeah, the A Shau was—After Hamburger Hill, the A Shau seemed pretty quiet.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now was there a point when the monsoon sets in and they have to pull
out of there?”
Yes, I think that they pulled out in late ‘69. I think we pulled everything out of the A Shau
Valley and operated pretty much along the coastal mountains for the monsoon season. (36:00)
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how much trouble does the weather create for a Chinook, or are
there conditions where you can’t operate?”
Well, it was a fully instrumented helicopter, and we flew in the weather in Vietnam in the
Chinook mostly to drop flares for the infantry at night. I remember one particular night where it
�Meyer, J.P.
was low clouds, drizzly, and rainy that we had a flare mission, and I took off out of Liftmaster
and was in the clouds within five or six hundred feet and pretty much spent the whole time in the
clouds flying. And there was a radar controller that would guide us out to the drop zone, and then
we’d set up a racetrack pattern and drop. And then the infantry radio man on the ground would
adjust that drop zone based on where the light was within—One of the things that really was
striking was the first time I went on a flare mission at night in the clouds, we dropped the flares,
and when the flare ignited, the flare would drop. And a parachute would come out, and then it
would float down and provide I don’t know how many thousand candlepower of light in each
one. The whole cockpit lit up. The clouds lit up like it was daytime. And then they’d go out, and
it’d be dark again. And we’d stay up there—Oh, I don’t know how many flare—We had a crate
in the back with all the flares in it, and we’d stay up there until the flares were gone and then go
back.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then what kinds of supplies would you carry?”
We carried mostly ammunition, food and water, and fuel in sling loads. Most of our flights were
sling loads. (38:04)
Interviewer: “So they’re hanging below the aircraft rather than inside it.”
Correct. In nets. And then when an artillery battery would move, we would move them. We’d go
up to the hill where they’re located, pick the tubes up, take them to the new location, and drop
them off. And we called it an arty move, and most of our unit—If we were assigned an arty
move, most of our unit would work on that one mission together until the entire battery was
moved. And then we’d go off and do other missions.
Interviewer: “All right. Was there cargo that was harder to transport than others?”
It was usually based on weight. A 155 Howitzer is a lot heavier than a 105. Some of our other
missions would involve going and getting—recovering down helicopters, and the Cobra was a
very heavy helicopter. We had to be quite low on fuel to pick up a Cobra. I remember distinctly a
Cobra that was shot down and sitting on a sandbar in a river with high ridgelines on each side.
And we were resupplying a firebase and flying over that site, and there was a lot of talk on the
radio about, “How are we going to get that Cobra out of there?” And I was flying—Some of the
Chinooks were more powerful than others, I guess. I’m not sure why, but we had—And they—
And our—Some of our aircraft had been upgraded to what were called Super C’s where they had
bigger engines, and I was flying a Super C that day. And I told everybody on the radio—I said,
“I think I’ve got—I’m down to a fuel load where I think I can pick that Cobra up.” I said, “I’m
going to go down and give it a try.” So I went down, and the riggers were down there. (40:00)
And I went down and hovered over the Cobra and picked it up. And I got it off the ground, and I
got it off high enough. But the crew chief thought it was safe to go, so we took off. And I took
off down the river to gain airspeed, and I started climbing. And I climbed, and I climbed, and I
climbed. And I’m looking up at these ridgelines like, “Golly, we’ve got a ways to go yet.” And
then you’re thinking about, “I wonder how many NVA can see us flying slowly, climbing with
this Cobra slung underneath us.” But we retrieved it, and it was one of those memorable
moments in flying in Vietnam because when we got back to Camp Evans with the Cobra—And
�Meyer, J.P.
we had—We must’ve had a hundred foot sling on it. So we’re hovering a hundred feet in the air,
setting this thing down very gently, and set it down and release the sling. And the maintenance
and the pilots from the Cobra company were down there, and they were just cheering and waving
because we brought their Cobra back to them.
Interviewer: “All right. Now you said that the first several months you’re there were fairly
quiet in terms of having to deal with enemy. Do things get more intense later on?”
One thing I—Things seemed to escalate slowly during the monsoon season. One thing that—So
the things we were worried about in the monsoon season were getting up to the firebases in the
clouds. We had guys that actually hovered up the side of mountains to get up to firebases to
resupply. We had other guys who got to the firebase with the low clouds, but when they got right
over the firebase went into the clouds. And that’s a pretty urgent situation because you really
can’t start letting down because you don’t know what you’re letting down into. (42:06) So you
have to take off—You have to accelerate in the clouds and come back around and get radar
vectors or whatever you might get to get out of the clouds and then try again to get back up to the
firebase. But as long as you maintained visual with the ground or basically the trees out in front
of you, you could actually hover up the side of a mountain. If you had enough clearance so that
your sling load didn’t drag through the trees, you could get up to the firebase and resupply them
because we’re the only—We were their only lifeline for food, water, ammunition. The other
thing that was happening occasionally—and I only know of a couple instances—was that the
NVA would get on the radio, and they would intercept you on the radio assuming you—They
would imitate the ground control—the GCA approach controller—and they’d start radar
vectoring you. And they actually radar vectored a Cobra into the mountains on one occasion.
And I was out there flying on a flare mission one night, and we were being vectored back to Phu
Bai. And the controller had us going west for some reason, and I told my copilot. I said, “If we
go west for one more minute—” I said, “We’re turning around and heading for the coast and
letting down under the water.” Because I wasn’t sure who I was talking to, and then he turned us
back. And it was actually one of our guys, and he vectored us back into Phu Bai. But that’s—As
I recall, that’s about the time that things started to change in terms of hostile activity in I Corps
for us.
Interviewer: “Okay, and now for the ground units and so forth, I mean, there up until
about March of 1970, they’re mostly kind of in the lowlands or in the foothills and not
going farther inland too much. There were some missions up to the DMZ and things like
that. Now did you also support like the ARVN 1st Division or the Marines?” (44:24)
We did. We’d haul—When we hauled the ARVNs—Some of those flights were interesting
because they would take animals with them. I know we had one load where we were carrying
ammo for them, and they had ducks in the net. And the—When they—Ammo crates—We’d pick
the load up in the net, and that pushed the ammo crates together. And some of the ducks were
down in between the crates and, of course, got smashed. They probably ate them first when they
got to the firebase. And I had a load of ARVNs that I picked up inside the aircraft one day, and
we took off. And we’re headed out to a firebase, and I look down at the—The Chinook had a
little—The cockpit was separate from the back, and there was a little companionway we called it
that you went through to get into the seat. And I look down, and there was a pig standing in the
�Meyer, J.P.
companionway. And I said over the intercom—I says, “Chief, get that damn pig out of the
cockpit, will you?” He was just standing there looking at the instruments.
Interviewer: “Yeah, well, soldiers brought their own food with them.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now in March of 1970, the 101st makes their first effort to
set up what would become Firebase Ripcord, and that mission aborted. And then they try a
second one the first of April, and then eventually the middle of April they start. Now how
much were you involved with that stuff?” (46:05)
I remember the insert into Ripcord vaguely. It was just another firebase insert. We’d take a dozer
up there. We carried what was called a mini dozer. It was a very heavy load. We would take the
body of the dozer up there, and then we would take the tracks and the blades separately. And
then the troops would assemble the dozer up on the hill, and then they would use the bulldozer to
doze off the top of the hill and create the setting or the ground for the firebase. And then we’d
pull the dozer off and bring in the artillery and all their supplies and do an arty move. And then it
was—After that, up until it was evacuated, it was a matter of resupplying Ripcord, and initially
we could fly in there, and they—Ripcord was a two-tiered firebase. They had an upper on the hill
where the guns were, and they had a lower area that was called a log pad. And the log pad was
just to the north, northeast of the hill proper, and that’s where we’d drop our loads. And then
they had a little trail between the two where they’d take their supplies up to the hill. So we would
come in in the lower log pad, and it was just a routine resupply for the first, I guess, couple of
months that we were resupplying Ripcord. And then it got hot.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now before it got hot at Ripcord, had you had other situations or
places where you were taking enemy fire or getting shot at?”
I got shot at four times that I know of in Vietnam. (48:00) We were on a routine supply back in
the fall of ‘69 out to Rendezvous in the A Shau Valley, and the crew chief came up in the cockpit
one day with a AK-47 round in his hand. And we looked at it and said, “Where’d you get that?”
And he said, “I looked up—” And he said, “There was a hole in the soundproofing.” He said, “It
must have come through the cargo hold.” And it was lodged in the soundproofing overhead, and
he took it out. And then the second time I got shot at, I was on a flare mission over the A Shau.
We were dropping flares over Firebase Henderson, I believe, on the east side of the A Shau
Valley, and when we briefed for the mission, part of the briefing indicated that there was a 37
mm in aircraft sight on the west side of the valley across from Henderson. And we were at
eleven thousand feet with the lights out, and we’d been up there dropping flares for probably
forty to forty-five minutes. And the crew chief or my right door gunner—As I was turning in the
racetrack pattern right after a drop, he said, “We’re taking fire. We’re taking—” And he got real
excited. He said, “We’re taking fire, sir. We’re taking fire. It’s coming up through the rotor
system.” And I started jinking—you know, getting away—to the left. And I said, “Okay, they
know we’re up here.” I said, “We’re going to depart and let the C-130 come in and drop from
high altitude.” And the pathfinder on the ground was just begging for—He says, “We’ve got to
have light. We’re in hand-to-hand combat down here, and we don’t know the good guys from the
�Meyer, J.P.
bad guys. And we’re trying to clear these bunkers.” And I—I said, “Okay.” I said, “They didn’t
get that close.” (50:00) So I turned around, and I went back in. And about my third pass, I saw—
It was flak in front of flashbulbs just like getting your picture taken, and it was level at our
altitude. And I turned, made a sharp bank, and got out. I said, “All right, we’ve got to leave now.
We’re going to get hit.” So we had to leave the area. That was the second time I got shot at. The
third time I got shot at was on what was known as Operation Lifesaver. The general—
commanding general—apparently wanted an emergency landing zone in every thousand meter
grid square in I Corps that were in our area of operation. So our mission was to pick up combat
engineers and take them out to an area that had been selected as an emergency landing zone on a
hilltop and drop them off in the morning. They would clear trees, blow stumps, and create a
landing zone big enough ideally for at least a Huey, and then we’d go pick them up in the
afternoon. Sometimes when we dropped them off, we could get the back wheels on the ground
and hover the front end, and then they could lower the ramp and just get off in the LZ. Other
times we had a seventy foot cable ladder that they would go down off the ramp. Well, in this
case, we couldn’t land. They had to go down the cable ladder. And when we were on our way
out there, the pathfinder who—They put a security force on the ground before we would go in.
The pathfinder asked—He says, “Where are you guys?” I said, “Well, we’re en route. We’re
about five minutes out.” (52:02) And we were pretty high to stay out of small arms range. We
were probably flying at four or five thousand feet, and I asked him—I said, “Is the area cold?”
“Yep,” he said. “The infantry got on the ground. Not a shot fired.” I said, “Okay.” And I looked
over to my copilot. I said, “Jeff, they’re going to get somebody killed in this mission one of these
days.” And so I was the company instructor pilot by that time, and I was giving—My copilot was
Jeff Brockmeyer, and he was upgrading to aircraft commander. So I was giving him an aircraft
commander check, and I told him when we started—I said, “Jeff, I know you know how to fly
the aircraft.” I said, “You run the mission. I’ll fly the aircraft. If you have any questions, just ask
me.” So I was flying, and I came into the LZ at a high hover. And the—I dropped off the sling
load, and the sling load was dynamite, gasoline, chainsaws. To clear the area. And right after we
dropped off the sling load, all hell broke loose. I heard a lot of popping. It sounded like—What I
recall—The sound of being on a basic training firing range with all the—Everybody shooting.
And everything happened very fast, and about that time a round went through the cockpit,
plexiglass flying. And Jeff, my copilot, threw his hands up in his face. I thought he was hit, and
the crew chief said, “We’ve got people hit back here. We’ve got oil all over the place.” Well, I
instinctively—When that happened, they hadn’t put out the ladder yet. Thank goodness. And
there was nobody—So there was nobody on the ladder. But I instinctively pulled off the hill,
started going down the ridgeline down towards the valley, and our caution panel lit up like a
Christmas tree. (54:06) And I saw the oil transmission pressure caution light come on, so—And
Jeff was talking to the Cobra gunship pilots on the radio, and I was—I saw the transmission oil
pressure light, so I—There’s five transmissions in a Chinook, and there’s a selector that will tell
you what the pressure is in each one individually. When I got to the main transmission, the
pressure gauge went all the way to zero, and I said, “Jeff, they’ve got the C-Box. We’re going to
have to set it down.” And I’m going down there towards the—I’m looking for a place to go, and
I’m looking down in the river bottom, and there’s no place to go down there. And about that time
Jeff was talking on the radio, and he switched over to intercom. Apparently, the Cobra pilots
were looking at me—at the angle that we were going and saying, “Are you going to make it? Are
you going to make it?” And Jeff says, “Are we going to make it?” And I said, “Hell yes, we’re
going to make it.” And I pulled back on the cyclic and did what we call a cyclic climb and
�Meyer, J.P.
pitched the nose up, and now I’m looking at the next ridgeline. And there’s a break in the trees. I
said, “We’re going in right up there.” (56:01) I said, “Get the 60s off the mounts, put them at two
and ten o’clock position, get somebody off the tail.” And I said, “We’re going in up there, and I
don’t know what we’re going into. Get ready to duke it out with whoever’s there because we’ve
got to land.” So I got up, coasted to a stop, and that was ironically a previous Operation
Lifesaver landing zone. And it wasn’t quite at the top of the hill, so I set the Chinook down. And
it started to roll, and I picked it back up. And I hovered up the hill a little ways, and there was
a—about a two foot or three foot tree stump. And I planted the front end on the tree stump and
let it—And slowly let it down and it settle, and everything was stable. And we just pulled
everything to stop, and, you know, we’ve got guys screaming in the back. We had sixteen people
on that aircraft. Five crew members and eleven combat engineers. Out of the eleven combat
engineers, nine of them were shot. My left door gunner had a round in the hip, and the Huey
came in and landed behind us and took nine out of the eleven—We had two wounded guys that
stayed on the hill because the Huey couldn’t take everybody, but he took the most critical ones.
Two of those combat engineers ended up dying as I was told later, and they had a ready reaction
force that would come out and rescue downed helicopter crews. And they activated the ready—
the rescue force, and we could hear the Hueys orbiting way off in the distance. You can hear a
Huey from a long ways, and, you know, my thought was, “Why aren’t they coming to get us?”
(58:00) Well, we weren’t on the hill more than about five minutes after the Huey had come in
and took our wounded guys, and we heard this—It was an artillery shell coming in, and it
sounded just like in the movies. Comes whistling in, and there’s a big explosion. And the ground
shakes, and I asked my—One of our door gunners had been in infantry troop. He—And I said,
“What the hell was that?” He said, “That’s our artillery.” There was a fire mission going from
somewhere east of us. They were firing at what I didn’t know at the time. But was a North
Vietnamese regimental base camp area. Was based at the base of this hill not far from Ripcord.
So finally the Hueys came in. The Cobras stayed with us. We couldn’t talk to them because they
shot out all our radios, and our survival radio didn’t work. But they kept making—They weren’t
shooting, but they were making gun runs. And they stayed with us, and the Huey finally came in.
And the infantry was very impressive. I’ll never forget that. They came in, and they got off the
Huey. They huddled up just like a football team, and the lieutenant said, “All right, you guys
here, you guys there.” And he designed the perimeter. He said—And it’s just like, “Okay.
Break.” And they all spread out and did their thing, and then he came up to me. And he said,
“Who’s the aircraft commander?” I said, “I am.” He said, “Well, sir, you picked an interesting
place to go down.” I said, “Why is that?” He said—He pulled out his map. He said, “We’re on
the top of this hill right here.” He said, “All around the base of this hill is a North Vietnamese
regimental base camp area.” And I said, “That’s very interesting. How soon are we going to get
off this hill?” So the Huey that had taken the wounded guys to the hospital came back and picked
us up. (1:00:02) We were on the hill for an hour and ten minutes. The—We had radioed back
once the infantry got on the ground. We had radioed back to the—our company. The crew chief
went up and inspected the damage and thought if we—They hit the return oil line from the main
transmission, and he said, “If you send the line out in some oil, we’ll—We can fix it right here
and fly it out of here.” And our commander radioed back. He said, “No, you guys have had
enough for one day. We’re getting you off the hill.” So they evacuated us, and Jeff and I were
sitting in my hooch having a beer at about three in the afternoon. And somebody came racing in
and said, “502 was shot down, and it crashed.” I said, “No, it didn’t.” I said, “We were in it. It’s
just—It’s sitting out there.” “No, no. The maintenance crew went out, and they recovered the
�Meyer, J.P.
aircraft. And they crashed.” So the maintenance—So what happened was the commander sent
two maintenance pilots and two maintenance technicians out to the hill with a line and the oil,
and they fixed it. And they cranked it up and did a hover check. Everything checked out, so they
took off and headed direct for home. And I had told Jeff—I said, “If we get this thing fixed—” I
said, “We’re going from here to Ripcord because it’s only about three or four minutes. And set it
down and check it out.” Well, they took off, climbed altitude, and headed for Phu Bai. After they
were at altitude, the oil that had leaked out of the transmission had streamed down by the
engines, and it caught fire. So the whole back end of the aircraft was on fire, and they made an
emergency landing. They crash-landed on a sandbar at a place called Three Forks, which is south
of Ripcord a ways, and the—They hit the sandbar so hard that the front—the cockpit broke off at
the cockpit slice and went into the river. (1:02:15) Underwater with the two pilots in it. The two
maintenance technicians were thrown out the opening that was created when the cockpit was
gone, and they were in the river. They had made a mayday call when they went down, and
another Chinook went in and picked them up. They all survived and relatively uninjured. They
had some burns because by the time they got on the ground, the pilots told me that the flames
were lapping up in the cockpit. But they survived. But the aircraft never made it back. It burned
right on the sandbar. That was the third time I got shot at. The fourth time I got shot at was—I
was actually giving a new pilot an in-country orientation ride. So when a new pilot came in,
you’d get in the aircraft with somebody—usually the company instructor pilot—and then just
basically tour the area. “Here’s our area of operation.” And we were up west of Quảng Trị by a
place called Firebase—I’m blanking on the name, but we were just south of the DMZ, and I said,
“Well, I’ll show you a little further west.” Which we really didn’t have anybody out there, but I
was basically pointed towards Khe Sanh. And I made a turn to go back to the south, and I could
hear the—We started taking fire. I could hear bullets. Well, there was—Apparently, there was a
.50 caliber machine gun in a culvert in one area, and he would roll it out and shoot at helicopters
and then roll it back into the culvert. (1:04:00) And Cobras finally got him, but he shot at us.
And you could hear rounds going by the aircraft, and we exited the area. Fortunately, they didn’t
hit us.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you flying to Ripcord in July of 1970 when things got
interesting?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So talk about that phase.”
That was pretty exciting. My technique for getting in and out of Ripcord when it was really
under siege and being mortared regularly was to fly directly at the mountain with a sling load, do
a cyclic climb, and time it so that you slowed down and basically came to a stop right over the
lower log pad. And set your load down, release it, and get out. And it wasn’t uncommon for us to
be leaving the firebase and hearing mortars land behind us because when we hovered in to drop
off a load, we created a lot of dust. And the NVA could see the dust. They’d put the mortars in
the tubes, and we’d be gone by the time the mortars came down and hit the firebase. But at least
three or four times when I brought loads in there, it was—I could hear mortars landing.
�Meyer, J.P.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you always put the loads on the log pads, or did you ever put them
anywhere else on the base?”
No, we were told back during that time, “If you put your nose up on top of the hill, you’re
probably going to get shot.” So we stayed below the—Basically use the top of the hill to screen
us from small arms fire on the lower log pad.
Interviewer: “All right, but now eventually a Chinook does get shot down over Ripcord,
and they’re over the artillery positions at the time they’re doing that. And I was told they
were actually trying to put some of the artillery rounds closer to where the guns were.”
That must’ve been their—What they were probably doing is trying to put the load right next to
the guns, so that they didn’t have to go down to the lower log pad...
Interviewer: “Right. On top of the ammo bunker pretty much.”
... and haul them up there. So they were going to put them right in the ammo bunker, and they
got shot. (1:06:06) And the Chinook crashed on top of the ammo bunker and basically blew the
entire supply of ammunition up over—It cooked off over time, and I talked to one of the infantry
lieutenants who was quite a ways from Ripcord. And he said there was shrapnel and debris
landing in the trees around them as that was cooking off. I personally was actually in Saigon that
day picking up a brand new Chinook with one of our maintenance pilots. We were on our way
back, and when we got back late in the afternoon, the routine for bringing in a new aircraft was
to a fly-by over the company area, a high speed pass, and then come in and land. Well, we made
a high speed pass over the company, and I look down. And almost all the Chinooks were gone,
and I called the company ops. I said, “What’s going on?” Guy said—He said, “Well, they’re—
Ripcord—” He told me that they’d had a—The ammo supply at Ripcord was blown up, and
they’re up there doing an attack emergency resupply. So they resupplied them at that point, but
that’s when things got really hot.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you go to Ripcord again before the day they evacuated?”
I went in and out of there several times before—Yeah, while it was—I call it—under siege, I
guess.
Interviewer: “Yeah, well, it was under siege.”
It was under siege because we were the only resupply line they had. The Hueys could get in there
and haul troops in, but they couldn’t haul very much ammo. And they didn’t haul ammo.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and at this point, I mean, the 105 battery is not operational, so there’s
just the 155s up there. But were you bringing out 105 ammunition in expectation that they
would put another battery there?”
�Meyer, J.P.
I honestly don’t know. We were carrying high explosive artillery rounds. (1:08:00) We usually
would call in to the pathfinder and say, “We’ve got a load of 105 HE.” But I don’t recall what I
was calling in at the time.
Interviewer: “Yeah, because there was thought of bringing in another battery to replace
the one that had been knocked out.”
Because the guns were destroyed.
Interviewer: “Yeah, the—Yeah. So anyway—Okay, and then now we get to—sort of the
23rd of July when they actually evacuate the firebase. And what do you remember about
that day?”
We had a briefing the night before in our ops. They called all the pilots in and briefed us and told
us what we were going to be doing the next day. And one of the things they said was—I don’t
actually—I assume they did, but they told us that the first load going in there was going to be a
bulldozer. And if you got shot down on the hill, get out of the aircraft because they’re going to
bulldoze it off the side of the hill. And then they asked for volunteers, and I was sitting in the
back. And, of course, my hand went up, and the ops officer said, “Meyer, put your hand down.
You’re going home.” I was—The next day was my last flying day in Vietnam. So they took
volunteers—crews—and then the ops officer came up to me afterwards. And he said, “We’re
going to need you to be on standby.” So he said I’m—“We’re going to have you in the revetment
with the APU running, listening to the radios, and if we call you, you’re going to need launch.”
So we did just that. They—Our company launched, and the other companies launched and went
out and extracted the tubes off of Ripcord. And we were listening to it on the radio, and about—
There was a lot of aircraft getting hit going in and out of there. Some of them disabled and had to
go back and land, and towards the end of the mission, they—The ops officer called and said,
“We need you to launch.” And I thought, “God, this isn’t going to be good.” I don’t know. I just
had the sense that if I go up there today, I’m not coming back. (1:10:01) So we cranked up,
taxied out to the end of the take-off—where the take-off pad was—and we were ready to take
off. Called for clearance to take off, and the ops officer called. And he said, “They’re done. Taxi
back in and shut it down.” That was quite a relief. So I wasn’t actually in on the extraction.
Interviewer: “Okay, and you were in all of the stuff before it.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. Okay, so at this point now do they pack you up and send you
back to the States, or what do you do next?”
We packed up, had a little going away party in the officers’ club, packed all my stuff, got on a C130 at Phu Bai, and flew down to…
Interviewer: “Cam Ranh Bay?”
�Meyer, J.P.
Cam Ranh Bay, Cam Ranh Bay. And spent the night there. A group of us commandeered a deuce
and a half and went down to one of the—actually one of the local off base restaurants and had
Vietnamese food. And then left on a Freedom Bird as they called them the next day.
Interviewer: “Okay. Some—To kind of back up a little bit to sort of life in Vietnam, what
was daily life like when you weren’t flying?”
We played a lot of poker, drank a lot of beer. People asked me what I did in Vietnam. I said,
“Well, I flew all day one day, and I drank all day the next.” I didn’t actually do that, but…
Interviewer: “Yeah. Did they—Did you ever go off base?”
I went off base one time into Huế on a tour. We toured Huế—The citadel I guess they called it.
That was an interesting tour to—The Tet Offensive had done a lot of damage, and there was
just—The walls were marked with bullet—Yeah, bullet marks all over the place, and—But that’s
the only time I recall—other than R&R—getting off base. (1:12:22)
Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go on R&R?”
I went to Hawaii.
Interviewer: “Okay, so were you married at the time, or…?”
I was married. Had my oldest son. I left for Vietnam one or two days before his first birthday.
That was pretty hard. And then my wife was pregnant when I left, and my second son was
born—I left in—It was—I entered Vietnam in August. He was born in November. I didn’t see
him until he was—What was he? Nine months old. But I went on R&R and met my wife in
Hawaii, spent a week there, and then went back to Vietnam.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what’s it like having to go back to Vietnam?”
Pretty depressing. When you’re back out of the—out of the combat environment, out of the
stress, out of the risk, you feel safe, and it was relaxing.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now there’s lots of kind of stereotypes about Vietnam and life in
Vietnam and that kind of thing, and one of them is—particularly on the bases—there were
a lot of issues with drug use and race relations and so forth. Did you observe any of that
yourself, or…?”
Not in our company. We had—I think we had two different—They called them shakedown
inspections where the officers would go down and go through the enlisted barracks looking for
drugs. And I remember one of those for sure. I can’t remember, but I think we might have done
that a second time. But we didn’t find anything. That was the only experience with that concept
the whole time I was there. (1:14:14)
�Meyer, J.P.
Interviewer: “And, I guess—And so your company was kind of in its own sort of selfcontained area pretty much. Yeah, so you’re not really seeing sort of large numbers of
other base personnel and things like that. Did you have any Vietnamese civilians working
on the base?”
We had—The maids would come in and clean our rooms, make our beds, and do laundry for us.
But they were there only during the day. They were moved off base at nighttime, I think.
Apparently, they caught one guy walking off distances in our company area and got him off the
base. We got rocketed when I first got to Vietnam. We got rocketed at night every so often, and I
think what they were aiming for—There was an antenna field just to the north of where we were
living, and I think they were aiming for that antenna field. But you could hear the rockets come
in, and you’d scramble to get in the bunker. We’d go in the bunker, and it was kind of
frightening because you never knew while you were running to the bunker if the next rocket was
going to land right next to you. We did have a rocket hit one of our bunkers, and we had some
pilots in there. They weren’t injured, but it was—It was a good thing they were in the bunker.
Interviewer: “Right. Now did that rocketing—Did that stop at a certain point?”
Seems to me that it stopped about the time the monsoon season started. We would sit out on
our—We had a deck off the back of our officers’ club on the south side of the building, and we
would sit out there at night and watch Cobras working in the lowlands. (1:16:09) You could see
their tracers coming down., and you could see—They called them Dusters. I don’t know whether
they were Quad-50s or what they were, but we called them Dusters. And you could see their
tracers going out, firing, but that—a lot of that activity seemed to stop about the time the
monsoon season started. And during the monsoon season, there were times when we didn’t fly
for up to a week at a time, and we had one—We had one storm that dropped twenty-three inches
of rain in twenty-four hours.
Interviewer: “Okay, so once you get back from Vietnam, what do you do next?”
I—When I was in—I got my assignment out of Vietnam. I was assigned to Fort Benning,
Georgia because I had taken a direct commission. The army was short on commissioned officers.
They were offering direct commissions if you had—if you were a chief warrant officer grade 2,
which I was, and if you had a certain number of semester hours of college credit. So I qualified,
and so the—I don’t know. We were kind of ornery as warrant officers, and I was actually going
on R&R when that notice came out. And my roommate—who was the admin officer—called me,
and he—And I was in the officers’ club at the crane unit in Da Nang waiting for my flight to
Hawaii the next day, and he—I’m in the officers’ club, and I get a phone call. And I went, “Uhoh. Somebody died or something.” Because you never got a phone call in Vietnam. (1:18:06)
And it was my roommate, and he told me that the army was offering direct commissions if you
had the qualifications. And he said—I think there were—I don’t know—four or five or six of us
that qualified, and I said, “What are they offering?” He says, “Second lieutenant.” I said, “What
branch?” He said, “Infantry, artillery, armor, and signal.” I said, “So what do you think we ought
to do?” He says, “Well, we’re all going to—We’re all going to apply.” He said, “We can always
turn it down if it comes—when it comes back, so we’re all going to apply.” I said—He said, “Do
you want to apply?” I said, “Well, I guess so.” He said, “What branch?” I said, “Signal.” He said,
�Meyer, J.P.
“Okay.” I said, “What do we have to do?” He said, “We’ve got to sign a postcard and send it
back to DA.” Department Of the Army. I said, “Okay, well, sign a postcard for me and send it
back.” So we did. When I got back from R&R, on the bulletin board in the officers’ club—It—
Like I said, we were kind of ornery. Somebody—One of the warrant officers had put up a little
notice: “Send in your picture postcard and ten C-ration box tops for direct commission to second
lieutenant.” And so in July—I was due to go home in August. In July, the commissions came
down, and I was being commissioned second lieutenant infantry. So I decided since I was so
close to going home—And one of the questions I had from my admin officer—my roommate—
was, “Hey, they’re going to commission us to second lieutenants and send us to the field as
grunts.” (1:20:07) He said, “No, they can’t do that. We’re not qualified.” He said, “We’re going
to be pilots.” I said, “Okay.” So I took the direct commission. Well, because I was infantry, they
were going to send me to Fort Benning, Georgia. I don’t want to go to Fort Benning, Georgia. I
wanted to go to Fort Rucker and be a flight instructor. So I went to Fort Rucker. I actually got
my orders changed and went to Fort Rucker.
Interviewer: “How did you get your orders changed?”
I don’t recall exactly, but I’m sure I sent in a request. A Twix as we called them. It’s like a fax
nowadays. Sent a Twix back to DA, and they changed my orders. So I went to Fort Rucker from
Vietnam. I got back in—Would have been August because we were there exactly a year. And
was assigned to the Student Battalion in the administrative office. And basically my job—my
primary job—was to coordinate the graduation parties and to make sure that the colonels all got
seated by date of rank, and you didn’t seat one colonel whose wife didn’t like the other colonel’s
wife next to each other. And that was my job in the—I was in S1 I believe it’s called. So I was
there for six months. After I was there—They told me, “We’re going to put you in here for six
months, and then if you want to go fly, you can.” So once I was there for six months, I requested
reassignment to the—to Shell Army Heliport where we did instrument training in the TH-13, and
that’s what I did for the rest of my tour.
Interviewer: “Okay, so how long did you wind up doing that?”
From—Would have been early 1970 to 1972 when I got off active duty. (1:22:09)
Interviewer: “Well, it wouldn’t be early 1970 because—”
I’m sorry. Late 1970. Early 1971. Because I would have been in the Battalion for six months,
from—Yeah, you’re right. From August to six months later, which would have been early ‘71.
And then I went to Shell Field and was an instructor.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now at this point do you—What do you do next? I mean, do
you stay in the military in some fashion, or…?”
Let me answer a question you asked early on. When I was assigned to Shell, we lived on an
acreage that we found out in the country on a dirt road rented to us by a couple of bachelor
peanut farmers in a little farmhouse. Tiny house. You asked about—You were implying
discrimination. When we left—When I got reassigned after my tour was done, the landlord came
�Meyer, J.P.
to me and said, “Now, you know, if you’ve got any buddies that want to live out here in the quiet
country—” He said, “You let them know and steer them towards me, and we’ll rent them this
house when you leave.” And they said, “But, you know, we don’t want—” And he wouldn’t say,
“We don’t want any black people out here.” But he implied that. I said, “Yeah, I know what
you’re talking about.” I was from the Midwest, and we didn’t—There just wasn’t the prejudice
in the Midwest there was in the South. And so I said, “Yeah, I know what you mean.” And then I
had another experience. (1:24:04) We had a—One of our instructor pilots was African American
and a very nice gentleman, and I think—As I recall, his name was Danny Johnson. Had a nice
family. Good people. And he would call to rent. He was living on base. He wanted to live off
base. He would call to rent, and they’d say, “Oh, you bet. We’ve got this apartment. It’s great.
Come on out and take a look at it.” He said, “I’d go up and knock on the door, and they’d open
the door. And they said, ‘You know, we just rented that thirty minutes ago.’” He had a heck of a
time finding housing as a black person. So when we—I finished my tour. My family and I
moved back to Iowa, and I had wanted to go back to—Initially when I left high school, I enrolled
at South Dakota State in pre-pharmacy, and I wanted to finish pharmacy school. So I did two
things. I joined a Guard unit because I wanted to keep my military experience going, and there
happened to be a Chinook unit in Davenport, Iowa. So I joined the Chinook unit. And we lived
in Marshalltown, Iowa, and just a week or so after I got out—My dad was a farmer. He had a
heart attack. So we lived in Marshalltown, and I helped a neighbor of ours farm our farm for that
year while I went to junior college. And—a kind of a catch up year—I took courses that were
required for pharmacy school. And then I had—I was in the Iowa Army National Guard, and we
went to summer camp at Fort Ripley, Minnesota. (1:26:04) And I was—My job that summer at
Fort Ripley was to do instrument flight instruction in a Huey. So we basically would get in a
Huey—I’d get in a Huey with two students every morning, and we’d fly around Minnesota.
Well, on one of those days, I actually flew a Huey from Fort Ripley down to Brookings, South
Dakota and met with the dean of pharmacy, and I had been in school there before. And I told him
I wanted to come back and finish, and he said, “Well, if your grades are decent—” I didn’t have
a very good Grade Point Average when I left, and he said, “If your grades are decent—” He said,
“I’ll consider putting you in the class.” So when I finished summer camp, finished at
Marshalltown Community College with a 4.0 Grade Point Average, and called the dean, he said,
“I’ll put you in the class.” Because at the time, pharmacy school was two years of pre-pharmacy
and three years of pharmacy school. So I had finished my requirements for the first two years,
and he put me in the class for pharmacy school. So we moved from Marshalltown to Brookings,
South Dakota, and I finished pharmacy school and graduated in 1976.
Interviewer: “All right, and then you go to work as a pharmacist at that point?”
I did. We moved down to Vermillion, South Dakota where the medical school was because when
I was in pharmacy school my last—my next to last year—I was a second year pharmacy second
semester pharmacy student, and I took a course in pathology. And it was very interesting to me,
so I went to see the pathology professor and said, “You know, I might be interested in applying
to medical school.” (1:28:00) But I thought, “Well, it’s going to be a long shot because of my
Grade Point Average and my age.” I was twenty-seven or twenty-eight years old, and I sat there
and talked to him for half an hour. And age kept coming up, and he said probably some of the
best advice I ever got as a student. He said, “Well, Meyer, let me ask you. How old are you?” I
said—I think I was twenty-seven. He said, “All right, so you’ve got a year and a half of
�Meyer, J.P.
pharmacy school left. You’ll be twenty-eight, almost twenty-nine. Let’s say it takes you a couple
of years to get into medical school. You’ll be thirty-one. Four years of medical school, you’ll be
thirty-five. Two years of—A year of internship, thirty-six. Couple years of internal medicine
residency, thirty-eight. You’ll be thirty-eight years old. You could be a board-certified
internist—internal medicine specialist.” I said, “Oh my gosh, that’s eleven years from now.” He
leaned back in his chair, put his hands behind his head, and he said, “Let me ask you something,
Meyer.” I said, “Yeah, what’s that, Dr. Johnson?” “How old are you going to be in eleven years
from now if you don’t do it?” I said, “That’s a very good point, Dr. Johnson.” So I moved down
to—So the point is I moved to Vermillion. That’s where the medical school was. I didn’t have a
very good Grade Point Average although I did very well in pharmacy school. I maintained about
a 3.75. I went down and started applying to medical school, worked in a retail drugstore as a
pharmacist. One of our customers was the dean of admissions for the medical school. He knew
who I was. He knew what I was—I would go see him and talk to him about what I wanted to do.
And I took the Medical College Admission Test because it’d been so long since I had had
Biochemistry, for instance. My scores weren’t very good, so I took a prep course for the Medical
College Admission Test and increased my scores and kept applying to medical school (1:30:15)
I applied four years in a row. The third year—The second year I applied the dean told me—He
said, “You didn’t make the list.” But he said, “You moved up significantly in the applicant pool.”
Because of my better MCAT scores. So I said, “Well, I’m going to apply again.” And he said,
“I’d recommend you do so.” So I did. The third year I applied I was on the alternate list. I was
thirteenth alternate. I went to see the dean, and I said, “What are my chances?” He said, “Well—
” He said, “You’re on the alternate list.” But he said, “To be honest with you, we never take in
over seven alternates.” I said, “Well, all right, I’m on the alternate list. I think I’m going to apply
one more year.” And he said, “I would if I were you.” So, in the meantime—I applied that fourth
year—I was a registered pharmacist in a small town in South Dakota, not making very much
money, counting pills and typing labels. And I wanted to get out of the Army Guard and into the
Air Force Reserve, so I found an Air Force Reserve unit at Selfridge Air National Guard Base in
Michigan that was looking for pilots that had heavy helicopter time because they had H-3s. And
they took me on, so I moved to Michigan. And I actually worked full-time for the Air Force
Reserve for that year while I was waiting to get into medical school. I didn’t tell them I had
applied to medical school because I just thought, “Well, they don’t need to know that.” So I
worked out there, and they were wanting me to take a full-time job as a flight instructor.
(1:32:01) So I finally did. Chief of safety flight instructor in H-3. Well, they sent me off to—
Because I had transitioned from the Army Guard to the Air Force Reserve, they sent me to water
survival training, land survival training, and an aviation safety officer course, which was taught
at the Air Force Base outside of San Bernardino, California. So I went out there. I was out there.
It was my last week of class, and the phone rang. And again, that’s the only time my phone rang
ever in the BOQ I was staying in. And I answered it, and it was the secretary from the medical
school. And said, “We’re going to accept you to medical school. Where are you? We need to
send you some paperwork to have notarized and sent back to us.” So I signed it and sent it back,
accepted a position in—Medical school started in August of 1980, and for my training that I had
gone through in the Air Force Reserve, I was obligated until September of 1980. So I had a
problem. So I went back, and I talked to my boss. And I said, “Hey. I’m—Before I came out here
a long time ago, I applied to medical school, and I just found out last week I got accepted.” And
he says, “What are you going to do?” I said, “Well, I applied so many years in a row. I need to
do this.” So I sent a letter to AFRS headquarters requesting release from my obligation, and they
�Meyer, J.P.
denied it. In the meantime, I wanted to stay in the military, so I had found a position in the 185th
Tactical Fighter Group in Sioux City in the Iowa Air National Guard in the command post
because they—It required a rated officer. But you didn’t have to be A-7 qualified. We had A-7s
at the time. So I wrote a letter back, and I said, “Look. I’ve already got a position in an Iowa Air
National Guard unit, and I think the Air Force would be better off gaining a flight surgeon or a
physician flight surgeon as opposed to another pilot.” And they agreed with me, and they let me
out of my commitment. (1:34:03) So I moved back to Vermillion and started medical school in
19—in August of—Well, July of 1980.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and did you get through that successfully?”
I finished medical school in 1984. Stayed in the Guard the whole time. After medical school, I
moved to Michigan. I did an internship in Detroit, and then, during my internship, I applied to go
back on active duty in the Navy and the Air Force. And my goal in the Navy was to become
what was called a dual designator to fly as a pilot in Navy jets and be a flight surgeon at the same
time, and the Navy had that program. The Air Force didn’t. So as my internship went along, the
Navy didn’t get the paperwork done. The Air Force did. So I took the Air Force route and went
to flight surgeon training and was assigned to Vance Air Force Base in Enid, Oklahoma, and
after my internship—So we moved to Enid in—Well, it would’ve been July of 1984. I went on
active duty until—It was a three year commitment, so ‘84 to ‘87 I was on active duty in the Air
Force.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what did your job consist of?”
We had a clinic on the base. It was clinic medicine, and our job as flight surgeons was to take
care of the rated personnel. And the rated personnel consisted of student pilots, flight instructors,
and air traffic controllers. So we saw a young, healthy population. It wasn’t especially
challenging, so what I did was I took a job part-time in the local—one of the hospital’s local
emergency rooms as an emergency room physician. (1:36:00) So I moonlighted in the
emergency room while I was in the Air Force, and one of my objectives was to keep my skills up
because you do flight medicine for three years, and now, you know, taking care of a heart attack
is way back in the distance. So I was an emergency room physician. Well, when I finished the
Air Force obligation in ‘87, I—The local medical staff wanted me to take over the emergency
room at the other hospital in town, which was expanding and building a new emergency room
and building on to the hospital, so I agreed to do that. So I became a full-time emergency room
physician in Enid, and I transferred—Once I got off active duty, I rejoined the Iowa Air National
Guard as a flight surgeon in Sioux City. So I would attend drills in Sioux City, and I worked fulltime in Enid.
Interviewer: “And how would you get back and forth?”
I had my own airplane at the time, so I’d commute back and forth to—
Interviewer: “Long drive, not so long flight.”
�Meyer, J.P.
Correct, and actually there were times when the pilots from Sioux City—There was a low level
route that they would fly that went down into Kansas. Well, there was—Occasionally, they
would actually come down to Enid to the Air Force base and pick me up in an A-7, and we’d fly
the low level route back to Sioux City. And then Sunday afternoon be in a Guard drill. We’d
repeat the process, and they’d drop me off back in Enid, which was a lot of fun for me.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now you would have been in the Air National Guard in the
period of the Gulf War in ‘91. Did that have any ripple effects that got to your unit, or did
things just stay normal?”
We had—I don’t know if I’d call it a request or an offer for volunteers, and we did have some
people from our medical unit that volunteered for the Gulf War. And they were sent to—I know
one of our physicians was sent to Florida to backfill a physician’s position that was deployed to
the Gulf War. (1:38:10) So no one went to the Gulf, but they—We had a few people that went to
different places in the United States.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then how long did you stay with the Air National
Guard?”
I was the—I started out as the chief flight surgeon in the 185th Tactical clinic, and then I became
the clinic commander. And then my next assignment was as the State Air Surgeon for the state of
Iowa. So I switched from going to Sioux City. I went to Des Moines for drill, and I was the State
Air Surgeon for the Iowa Air National Guard.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when did you complete that assignment?”
When I retired in January of 2000.
Interviewer: “All right. Now you had been working in Enid, Oklahoma. You now live in
Grand Island, Nebraska. How did that come about?”
Well, I was working as the emergency room physician. I ran the emergency room, and I would
hire other physicians to be the emergency room physician when I was not there. And I had a
partner who was a medical school classmate of mine, and he and I basically took most of the
hours. And then we’d use residents from Oklahoma City to fill in the rest, and I did that until
1992. In late ‘91, the administrator at the hospital came down and was talking to me, and he said,
“You know, you’re one of two physicians on our medical staff who do not have post-graduate
medical education.” Basically, I’d had just an internship and experience. And he said, “And the
other one is retiring.” So I thought, “Well, all right. I probably need to go and do my specialty
training.” So my thought at the time—Because of my pharmacy background, I had—Really,
when I left medical school, I wanted to do anesthesia residency, and the internship I did was a
lead-in to that. And then, during my internship, I decided to change course and go to the—back
to the military for a while. (1:40:08) So I—My choices were to do anesthesiology or do
emergency medicine. The University of Oklahoma had an emergency medicine program. The
University of Kansas-Wichita had an anesthesiology program, and they were—Well, University
of Wichita was a little further than Oklahoma City from Enid but not much. So my thought at the
�Meyer, J.P.
time was, “Well, I’m already doing emergency medicine. I’m not sure I want to go and train for
two years to do something I’m already doing.” An my primary interest had always been
anesthesiology. So I applied to the University of Kansas and completed the residency program at
the University of Kansas-Wichita hospitals, and that program ran from 1992 to 1995. In 1995,
we moved to Woodward, Oklahoma—small town in western Oklahoma—and I was the only
anesthesiologist there. We had a nurse anesthesthetist who was a nurse that does anesthesia, and
we had—It was a fairly—We had a new, young—couple of new, young surgeons, and it was a
fairly busy place. But I grew up in the Midwest around cornfields and beanfields, and now I was
in an environment that looked like west Texas with wind and dry and tumbleweeds. And if you
didn’t ride horses or chase rattlesnakes, there wasn’t a whole lot to do in Woodward, Oklahoma,
so—And I was being—I was on call 24/7, and basically I got tired of the routine. And I told my
wife. I said, “I’m moving back to the Midwest. I hope you’re going with me.” So we moved to—
I had a classmate who was from Grand Island where I live now, and his father and his group—an
orthopedic group—had plans to build their own ambulatory surgery center. (1:42:19) So Dr.
Albers was calling me and telling me and encouraging me to come up. Well, I wanted to leave
Oklahoma, so I actually interviewed in—at a couple hospitals in Iowa and one in Topeka, and I
knew of the opportunity in Grand Island and ultimately decided to move to Grand Island. And
we’ve lived there ever since.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Okay, so to look back on the whole thing, I mean, obviously,
a lot—You know, the standard question that I ask is sort of how do you think your time in
the service affected you, or what did you take out of it? And you said a lot about that
already, but I just want to sort of—Just for yourself as a person, how do you think that this
affected you?”
Well, I got out of the service—You know, I guess I’d have to say I got out of the service what I
wanted. Flight training and experience. Because of the course I took in flight training, in the Air
Force Reserve, in medical school, in the flight surgeon—I mean, I had a terrific time in the
military. I had a lot of opportunity. I got to do a lot of really neat things. I rode in the backseat of
an A-7 all the way from Sioux City, Iowa to Sint-Truiden, Belgium on a deployment for summer
camp one year. I—It was just a really—It was a good time. Got a lot of flying experience and
enjoyed it. On the downside, it took a toll on my personal life. After Vietnam, I got divorced
from my boys’ mother and eventually was remarried to my current wife, and we raised her two
boys. My two boys finished college and are very successful. One’s an insurance executive. One
is actually a physician anesthesiologist pain doctor just like myself who now lives in Kansas.
(1:44:05) We raised my wife’s two boys. One of them finished his degree at the University of
Nebraska in psychology, and he actually works for us in the office. Does—Helps do billing. Her
oldest son just finished his undergraduate degree, and he’s applying to PA school. And then we
had a daughter who was born in 1996, and she now is at the—Oklahoma State University in their
professional pilot program. I steered her towards aviation, but I told her—I said, “I want you to
do this for you. I don’t—You know, don’t do it for me. Just—This is something you seem to
enjoy and be interested in.” And I said, “You can actually go to college and get a degree in
aviation and learn to fly.” And I said, “There’s a pilot shortage going on, and I think it’s going to
run for at least ten years. And the sky’s the limit.” I said, “You’ll—” And I—We talked when
she’s been home, and I said, “You know, Elizabeth, you have the world by the tail if you play
your cards right.” And she just smiles and says, “Yeah, I know.” So it took a toll on, you know,
�Meyer, J.P.
my personal life like I think it did for so many Vietnam vets. It’s just what life was like at the
time. It’s how things were. Lot of stress.
Interviewer: “All right, and you basically kind of over time learned to manage it or deal—
Or things quiet down over time, or…?”
Yeah, they have. I think there are times when a certain situation is difficult for me.
Interviewer: “Yeah, I mean, you saw a lot difficult stuff and went through some very, very
scary things, and those do leave a mark. But you’ve had certainly a very impressive career
and makes for very good stories, so thank you very much for taking the time to share
today.”
You’re welcome. (1:45:58)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_MeyerJ2282V
Title
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Meyer, J. Paul (Interview transcript and video), 2018
Date
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2018-11-03
Description
An account of the resource
J.P. Meyer was born in Marshalltown, Iowa, in 1947. He graduated high school in 1965 and attended a pre-pharmacy program at South Dakota State University before dropping out in 1968 to enlist in the Army's warrant officer flight training program. Meyer underwent Basic Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana, and then transfered to Fort Wolters, Texas, for primary helicopter school as well as Fort Rucker, Alabama, for instrument and tactical training. When he was deployed to Vietnam, Meyer joined Charlie Company, 159th Aviation Battalion, 101st Airborne in Phu Bai. His unit participated in the establishment, siege, and eventual evacuation of Firebase Ripcord in 1970. After working an administration job back in the U.S. for the remainder of his tour, he joined a Chinook unit in the Iowa Army National Guard and later graduated with a pharmaceutical degree. From there, he continued his medical studies at vance Air Force Base in Enid, Oklahoma. Meyer eventually became the State Air Surgeon and began going to Des Moines, Iowa, for drill. Meyer finally completed this assignment when he retired in January of 2000.
Creator
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Meyer, J. Paul
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army. Air Force
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1079737e4584080c01160dda19cba33a.mp4
580d020f740d6cd580ab039cbe40cdf7
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dbe32ac8dedef2368393013fd2526cd4.pdf
672d1136303b0052bff502e082676d0d
PDF Text
Text
Mackey, Michael
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam War
Interviewee’s Name: Michael Mackey
Length of Interview: (55:31)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “Okay, Mike. Begin at the beginning. Where and when were you born?”
Third of February, 1948. Crawfordsville, Indiana.
Interviewer: “All right. Now did you grow up there, or did you move around?”
No. My dad was in the military. We moved to Japan when I was five years old, and we stayed
there for two years.
Interviewer: “So what do you remember about living in Japan?”
Colors. I remember a lot of colors. It was right after the war, and I remember the communists
marching and demonstrating. And, as a little kid, I just remember bright colors. And I remember
my maid vaguely who stayed with us and just little things. That’s pretty—You know.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay, and so where did you wind up going to high school?” (1:00)
I went to high school really in two places. I went to Wai’anae High School in Hawaii, and then
from Wai’anae we moved to Plum Branch, South Carolina. My dad got transferred to Fort
Jackson, and then I graduated from Airport High School in West Columbia, South Carolina.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when did you graduate from high school?”
1966.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do after you got out of high school?”
I’m trying to—I worked in a sign company. Colonial—houseman—Heights. Building signs for
about eight, ten months, I think, before the army started getting close.
Interviewer: “Okay, so Vietnam was going on. There was a draft going on.”
Yes. Right.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now how much did you know about Vietnam at that point?”
�Mackey, Michael
Just what I’d seen on TV. I remember—I remember helicopters a lot because they were on TV
every night, and that’s the main thing I remembered about Vietnam. It was just starting to really
get hot in that timeframe.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right, so at that point do you decide to enlist before—Or do you get
a draft notice? Or what happens?” (2:05)
No. My dad—He was career military. He had been in—stayed in for thirty-three years. Did all—
He did World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. And he had told me that I need to talk to a recruiter
and start taking tests for schools that the army had to offer. So I took all the tests that I could
think of to take. I hoped to be like a rocket repairman or something where I wouldn’t have to go
to Vietnam. That’s what my endgame was. And didn’t work out that way. And he had called me
one day, and he said, “Mike, you’d better go down and join something.” “In the next few days,”
he said, “you’re fixing to get your draft notice.” So I went and talked to the recruiter, and I said,
“What kind of a school can you give me?” And he said, “Only thing I can give you right now is a
rotary-wing flight.” And I said, “Oh, no. I don’t want to do that.” I said, “I’ve seen the
helicopters on TV. I know they’re getting shot down. People getting killed. I don’t want to do
that.” He said, “Well, that’s the only school I can give you.” Long story short, I took it because
he offered me a four-month delayed entry, which was like an eternity to an eighteen, nineteenyear-old kid. “Four more months? Oh, yeah, I can do that.”
Interviewer: “All right, so when do you report for duty?”
It was in the summer of ‘67.
Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go?”
I went to Fort Jackson thinking that’s where I would do my basic training because that’s what
they had told me. They lied. I got to Fort Jackson. Got checked in. They put me on a bus and sent
me to the airport and put me on a plane to Fort Polk, Louisiana. And ended up there for basic.
Interviewer: “All right, so what was basic training at Fort Polk like?”
Hell. Hot and nothing to do off the base. Of course, we never got to go off the base to begin with.
And scary. Any kid that tells you it wasn’t scary—Basic training was scary. When you get off
that cattle truck, and you have six drill sergeants yelling at you…
Interviewer: “Yeah. Were you expecting that?”
Sort of because my dad had told me kind of what to expect, but it’s never—Hearing what to
expect and being in the middle of it is two different things. But it was—It was scary. (4:06)
Interviewer: “Okay. Were you in good physical shape when you went in?”
Oh, yeah, yeah.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Okay, so you could handle the physical stuff?”
I could handle physical stuff. I actually gained weight in basic training like I guess most people
do. It’s mostly muscle.
Interviewer: “You build up your muscle. Yeah. Okay. Now the guys who were there along
with you…Did you have a sense of where they were from, or if they were drafted?”
Oh, yes. Yeah. And everybody, from poor farm boys to people that were going to be going to
flight school and people who were going to go to OCS—They’re all bunched together in Fort
Polk. That’s where they sent all of us who were going to warrant officer flight school. We all
went through basic at Fort Polk, Louisiana.
Interviewer: “Okay. Okay, so a lot of the guys that you trained with there went with you
then through flight training?”
Well, we all went there. Yeah, but we all kind of went different ways there. In different classes.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay. But do you think you were in a unit that was geared specifically
toward people who were going to go to the flight school, or…?”
No, I don’t really—I don’t really think that was their purpose. I can’t really figure out what their
purpose was to send us all to Fort Polk because there was really nothing different about it—its
basic than any other base. Like I think—
Interviewer: “Yeah. Well, sometimes they would group people with potentially similar
MOSs or similar backgrounds together just—Because they did that.”
Right, but—This is just my opinion. But what warrant officer flight school did—They gave us a
Class 2 flight physical before entering the service to see if we were viable. When you get to basic
training, they give you a Class 1, which is a little bit more serious. They dilate your eyes and all
this stuff. And several people in basic flunked the exam. The physical. So they ended up going to
what they call Tiger Land, which is AI—infantry AIT at Fort Polk. So I think that’s their
purpose. If they flunk you out, or you didn’t pass your physical, they just moved you over here,
and now you’re an infantry guy.
Interviewer: “All right. Or, at least, that certainly happened to some people.”
It happened to several people.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the army for
real?”
That’s a good question. Boy. (6:00) Maybe—Maybe not that bad because my dad had been—All
I knew was military from him, but I—It was not horribly difficult. It’s a big adjustment for
probably anybody to do that.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Okay, and do you think you held up better than some of the other guys,
or…?”
Yeah. Well, some of the other guys. Sure. We had crazy people there. Yeah, one guy tried to
commit suicide several times.
Interviewer: “And how did the instructors treat you?”
I would say—I really didn’t think badly. I mean, I don’t remember ever getting singled out, but
that was my whole thing. My dad just taught me to kind of don’t show—Don’t stand out. Just
kind of be in the middle, and I kind of did that. I just stayed in the middle. I didn’t want to be too
good or too bad.
Interviewer: “All right, so how long did that last?”
The feeling, or the…?
Interviewer: “No, the actual—the basic training.”
Two months.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then is your next stop now starting the flight training?”
Our next stop—And this is about—It ended up being about Christmastime. We reported to Fort
Wolters, Texas for primary flight school. And once we did preflight—You go through preflight
for a month. But we reported there right before Christmas. And we were there about a week, and
they turned us around and sent us home on leave because it was Christmas. So we went home
and then came back. And my—When I got back from leave to Fort Wolters, Texas, my preflight
class was scheduled to be a couple weeks away, so I had time—I would have had time to get my
uniforms ready, and—They’re really picky. They moved me up, so I started like two days after I
got back. None of my stuff was ready, so I’m ironing clothes, sewing patches.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now—So this preflight training—This is also—You’re
becoming—I guess we ought to explain a little bit for an outside audience. You’re becoming
a warrant officer. What is a warrant officer?” (8:10)
You’re becoming—Yeah. A warrant officer is kind of an inbetween rank. You’re a specialist
when you finish whatever warrant you’re in. You’re a specialist in that field. I mean, nobody
expects you to do other things. You’re—This is what you’re trained to do. Like in my case, it’s a
pilot. You might be an ordnance warrant. There’s all kind of different warrants, but all you’re
expected to do is what you’re trained to do. You’re between an officer and an enlisted man, so
it’s a great rank. Nobody really knows what to do with you, so you just do your job.
Interviewer: “All right. Now the first weeks of this training...What’s the focus?”
�Mackey, Michael
The first month of the training, I think, is basically warrant—shadowing people because it’s all—
It’s like OCS. It just—On you all the time. It was probably worse than basic as far as inspections
and messing with you and just trying to get you to—See if they could make you quit. I think that
was the whole purpose. Just to see if they can wash you out.
Interviewer: “And what proportion of the class do you think washed out?”
At that point, I think maybe—It wasn’t a great, great proportion. I think maybe five or ten
percent at the most. It wasn’t a lot.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now are they starting to actually teach you things about
flying or aircraft?”
Yeah, you’re still—You’re going through ground school. Learning about weather. You’re
learning about being an officer. Just learning basic things. And then after that’s over, they, of
course, start flight school, which—Then it gets harder.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now, with the flight school, did they just go ahead—and they put you
into a helicopter with an instructor—and get started?”
Yeah, pretty much. You got a half—Split them in half. One half of the day is the ground school
where you’re learning about flying and all kinds of other things, and then the second half is
actually flying. And they stick you with an instructor, and you find out how uncoordinated you
are.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. What kind of aircraft did you start out in?” (10:20)
OH-13. The Korean Bubble. If you ever watch M*A*S*H, that’s what it was.
Interviewer: “All right, and how easy or hard was that to fly?”
Initially, it was crazy. I had a judge tell me one time—He says, “Flying a helicopter is like sitting
on a beach ball in a swimming pool.” And that’s what it felt like at first.
Interviewer: “All right, and how did the process work? I mean, what kind of stuff were
you—I mean, did you start with taking off, or does the instructor take off and then start
having you do things in flight?”
Now, basically, I think you start out trying to learn to hover. He would sit there and hover the
helicopter, and he’d explain what each control did. And as he explained what each control did,
he’d say, “Okay. Now you’ve got the cyclic, which is the stick.” And he’d tell you what it did,
and you’d hold it. And then, “Oh, that’s not too bad. I can hold the stick.” Then he’d add
something. “Okay. Now this is the collective. This is what it does. Now get a hold of it.” So now
you’ve got two things. Then he’d say, “These are the pedals. You’ve got the pedals.” And, all of
a sudden, you’re all over the place. You just—It’s crazy.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “All right. Now how dangerous was the training?”
Pretty dangerous. Pretty dangerous. We had one kid in our class—he wasn’t in my flight, but he
was in my class—that his first solo, his engine quit. And in a helicopter when the engine quits,
the procedure is to lower the collective and take the load off the blades. He pulled the collective.
The blades stopped. (12:02) And he died.
Interviewer: “All right. Did you have any close calls yourself or scary moments?”
Yeah, maybe scary moments, but it was self-induced. I was chasing a hawk one time while I was
flying solo, and I shouldn’t have been. I got too close to him, and it almost went through the
blades. Did stupid stuff in confined areas. I’d try to take off backwards, and I did—
Interviewer: “How old were you at this point?”
I think I was nineteen.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. That may explain a lot.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “But yeah, that was characteristic, I guess, of a lot of the warrant officers who
were all pretty young.”
Right. We all did the same. We all did the same. We were all crazy. It’s like a kid getting a really
nice sports car, you know.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, and so—Well, you get through that in one piece. Once you
survive that, then what do they do with you?”
Yep. Well, then, after you solo, pretty much it’s just a learning curve. Getting better and better
and better. You’re practicing engine failures. They actually let you go out by yourself and fly
around most of the time, and you fly with an instructor just very little. And just basically honing
your skills pretty much.
Interviewer: “Right, and then once you complete that training at Fort Wolters, what do
you do next?”
I went to Savannah to Hunter Army Airfield. We had a choice when I went through. You could
go to Fort Rucker, Alabama, or you’d go to Savannah, Georgia. Savannah was close to my
home, and so I went to Savannah. And in Savannah we started out flying Hueys instead of—Fort
Rucker—They went to OH-13s just like I was flying in basic, but we flew Hueys in Savannah
starting from the beginning.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you like flying a Huey better than—”
�Mackey, Michael
Oh, lord, yes. You didn’t have to worry about a throttle control. It was much smoother. Much
more powerful. And we were flying instrument training, which was very, very mentally
challenging. I mean, you’re flying under a hood. You can’t see outside. You’re just looking at
the instrument panels and trying to fly. So it made it a lot easier for that. (14:14)
Interviewer: “Okay. Did that turn out to be very helpful when you got to Vietnam?”
Yeah. Helpful and harmful. They teach you just enough. In flight school, they’d give us what
they called a tactical instrument ticket. Was just enough to keep you out of trouble but just
enough to get you in trouble, too. It wasn’t—They could’ve went a little further and helped us a
lot, but they didn’t.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. So how long did you stay in Savannah?”
It was four months.
Interviewer: “Okay, so when do you complete that course?”
Seems to me like it was in November of ‘68.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then once you’ve done that, what do they do with you?”
Well, in my case, everybody in my flight school class went to Vietnam immediately. My dad
was in Vietnam when I finished flight school.
Interviewer: “What was he doing at that point?”
My dad was an admin sergeant major with thirty something years in the military, so he was in a
very safe place in Saigon. He was pushing paper and getting orders and stuff. And he had
volunteered to go to Vietnam to keep me from going when I got out of flight school.
Interviewer: “Okay, so because he’s in Vietnam—you have a family member there—you
can’t go?”
I can if I volunteer, but I didn’t.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so what did you do instead?”
They sent me to Germany. I got to Germany, and it took me about a month to feel like I was just
a fish out of water. I’m thinking about all my friends who are in Vietnam. I think I’d been in
Germany maybe three months, and my roommate from Vietnam, one of my best friends, got his
jaw blown off in a Cobra. (16:01) And I got to feeling so guilty. I actually volunteered to go to
Vietnam.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now where were you in Germany?”
�Mackey, Michael
Würzburg.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what was your job there?”
We flew around a colonel—Air Defense Artillery colonel—to different Air Defense sites. It was
a great job as far as aviation jobs are concerned. We had three pilots and three aircraft.
Interviewer: “Yeah. And what’s daily life like in a place like that?”
For me, it was very boring. I mean, I was so young. Everybody else was kind of old. There were
only, like I said, three pilots, and two of them were married. And I’m single by myself, and it
was—That’s very boring for me.
Interviewer: “Okay, and to a certain extent, you’re kind of stuck on a base waiting for the
colonel to decide what you’re going to do?”
Yeah, pretty much, and it’s—I just wasn’t ready to be there, and I had—Like I said, I was so
concerned about my friends that I just felt so guilty.
Interviewer: “Right. Okay. So when do you get to Vietnam?”
I get to Vietnam in August of 1969.
Interviewer: “All right, and then what’s the process for getting you to Vietnam? Did you go
home first, and then…?”
Yeah, I went home on leave from Germany, and then I went from—From leave I went to Fort
Rucker to go through CH-47 transition, which I think was six weeks or somewhere around—
month to six weeks—and then to Vietnam.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay. CH-47. Now is that the Chinook?”
Yes, Chinook.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now explain how that’s different from a Huey.”
Well, it’s a multi-engine, heavy lift helicopter. Multi-engine. Huey’s got one engine. If it gets
shot out, you’re going down. Chinook’s got two. If it gets one engine shot out, you’re not going
down. You can fly it home. It’s basically a safer aircraft.
Interviewer: “Okay, and harder to fly?”
Not really. Probably easier to fly.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now how did you wind up doing that?” (18:06)
�Mackey, Michael
I felt like when I volunteered to go to Vietnam, it’d be the safest course. And the warrant
officer—We had a W-3 in Germany, and he advised me a little bit. And he said, “You should
probably try to get a Chinook transition because—”
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so you’ve applied for that. You do that training.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then in August of ‘69, now you make it to Vietnam. So from the
States how do they get you to Vietnam?”
Freedom Bird or just a commercial airliner they’d chartered.
Interviewer: “And where did you fly out of?”
I flew out of Oakland.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and where did you land in Vietnam?”
Saigon.
Interviewer: “Okay, so Tan Son Nhut?
Tan Son Nhut. Yeah, Tan Son Nhut.
Interviewer: “Okay. Okay, and what did they do with you once you land?”
Well, we landed in the evening, of course. At night. I think that’s probably when they all did. But
they put you in a bus, and they take you to the 93 Placement detachment or depot. Whatever it
was. And the thing I remember about getting on the bus is the screen. They had chicken wire all
along the windows, and I couldn’t figure out what that was for. Well, they told us before we left
on the bus that it was to keep hand grenades from getting thrown into the bus. That made sense.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, and a lot of guys have had that—And that’s one of the most
common things to pop up in these stories. But yeah, okay. What was your first impression
of Vietnam when you got there?”
Stink. The smell and the heat just overwhelmed you.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so now you go the replacement depot, and how long do you
spend there?”
We were there for—If you go into the 101st, which I was, you were there for—I think it’s four
days. They send you to a little, short course to teach you some things about Vietnam. Things you
can expect before they send you to your unit.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Okay, so what kinds of things were on the program?”
Well, they showed you how sappers could get through the wire and get into your perimeter, and
they showed you booby traps. And, you know, stuff, as a pilot, I’m probably not going to see.
(20:07) But I guess if I got shot down, maybe I might see it. But still. It’s just stuff that was
probably good for the people around me on the ground, but it wasn’t that helpful for us.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, and otherwise get you used to the climate a little bit and just—”
Yeah. Funny, funny story—and I don’t know if anybody else has told you—is they give you this
sleeping shirt when you get there, and it’s like—It might be a hundred and teens outside, and
you’re just sweating your butt off. And they give you this long sleeve shirt to sleep in. And I’m
sitting there, thinking, “Are you guys insane? I mean, I’m not going to wear this damn thing.” I
gave mine away when I got to my unit. And then the monsoons came, and then I wished I had it
back.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so once you complete that, now what happens?”
Now they put us on a C-130, and they fly us from Tan Son Nhut up to Phu Bai where the 101st
headquarters is at. And they had a—I think it was a Jeep waiting for us. I think there were—me
and one other guy—two pilots that were going to the same company, and they picked us up.
Interviewer: Okay. All right, and which company is that?”
Charlie Company. Playtex.
Interviewer: “Of what unit?”
159th Assault Support Helicopter Battalion.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, and what kind of reception do you get when you join the
unit?”
Hardly any. Seriously. Just come in, and they tell you where you’re going to sleep tonight. And
that’s about it.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then when you’re first there, what kind duties or training do you
get?”
They throw you right into the mix. Best I can remember. You start out on the flight schedule.
They’ll put you with an experienced aircraft commander, and you start flying. Start flying
missions the first day or two you’re there. (22:02)
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kinds of missions were they flying when you started?”
We were flying resupply missions—mostly to artillery bases—resupplying ammo, food,
anything. Hauling bulldozers. Heavy lift stuff.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Okay. Were you going to the A Shau Valley at that point?”
We were going out to the edge, not into it. But we were right at the—still at the edge of it.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right. Now when you’re first flying as a co-pilot, what kinds
of jobs do you have, or what are you doing while the other guy’s actually flying the
aircraft?
Well, basically, the aircraft commander’s in control of the missions, and the way most of them
worked is he’d fly a load, I’d fly a load, he’d fly a load, I’d fly a load. And as you got further
along and the more experienced, they’d actually let you start running the missions to see if you
could do it. Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right, and then at a certain point—I mean, how long does it take for you
to become an aircraft commander?”
About three months usually. Somewhere in that area.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now in the—kind of the west—In the first few months of
flying there, was it particularly dangerous, or was it quiet?”
It was pretty dangerous. We were up on the demilitarized zone and flying into some very bad
terrain, very bad area where a lot of North Vietnamese regulars were. There wasn’t Viet Cong. It
was regular army people.
Interviewer: “All right, and how quickly did you start getting shot at?”
Oh, I remember the first time I got hit. I hadn’t been there but maybe three weeks or a month,
and we got hit with a .51 caliber machine gun on the DMZ. And it hit us in the fuel cell, and we
started spraying fuel everywhere.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what does the pilot do when that happens?” (24:05)
We landed at a Special Forces base, which was right up on the DMZ, and we shut down there
and checked everything out. I think they plugged the hole with bubblegum or something just to
keep it from spewing out and going through the exhaust of the engine and catching fire.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were you still a co-pilot at that point?”
Yes, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Okay, so you’re going up along the DMZ as well as kind of
up to the hills.”
�Mackey, Michael
And around Khe Sanh, too. We were working out in that area at that point. I was up—We were
pretty close to Khe Sanh when we got hit.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then how does weather affect what you do?”
Oh, really horribly. Monsoons in I Corps were really, really bad, and the weather—We’d get
down to maybe a 100, 150 foot ceiling, which means you can go up about 150 feet before you
put your blades in the clouds. And we were actually running missions and that where we would
basically hover around, carrying loads to places. When you couldn’t get any altitude or air speed,
you’re just hovering around.
Interviewer: “And would you be—sometimes just be in the middle of a cloud, hovering
above something, and…?”
Well, when Ripcord happened, we actually did that kind of thing. We—They were so—They put
them in, and then they got socked in almost immediately. Had no—They were running out of
everything and begging for us to bring stuff to them any way we could, and we started shooting
approaches to the—about the middle of the mountain. The clouds had come down to about the
middle of the mountain. We’re shooting approach down to where we could still see, and then try
to hover up to the clouds. Just trying to see a little bit of ground as you could. Hover up to the
clouds to get stuff to them.
Interviewer: “Could people on the ground guide you at all or help?”
Sometimes they can guide you by sound if they hear you coming, and they tell you, “Come a
little bit to the right. A little bit to the left.” But basically, no, they can’t really help other than
that. (26:09)
Interviewer: “And there wasn’t any kind of signal system, or…?”
No, not for that. This was just improvisation. We—I forget who did it first. One of our—I think
it was John Wagner. He was a—my roommate, and I think he was the first one to try it and did it.
And he told us, and then, of course, we all try it.
Interviewer: “All right, and, I guess—Now the way, I guess, the sequence works, I guess, is
that when you first arrive, it’s still the dry season, so you can still operate.”
When I first got there, yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and then the monsoon comes in late in the year and extends into
the…”
It extends into March or somewhere around there.
Interviewer: “March. Yeah. Yeah, and the first attempt to actually establish the Ripcord
base was in March.”
�Mackey, Michael
Right.
Interviewer: “And that actually was aborted. Now were you part of that effort, or were
you…?”
No, not the initial effort, but initially I think they were trying to put infantry in, and they couldn’t
get them in. We’re usually second. Once the infantry gets in and secures the base, then we bring
the artillery in.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Okay, and so they hadn’t gotten that far in
the sequence.”
Not initially, no.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Now April 1st they try again, and this time they’re landing on the
hilltop that becomes Ripcord. And they get some infantry in.
Right.
Interviewer: “Now were you on standby for that as well?”
Yeah, then we got—Well, then we started bringing in the artillery pieces.
Interviewer: “Yeah, well, the—April 1st, when they went—They left the hill. They
couldn’t—They were under enough fire that they called that off. So the middle of April, I
guess—about the twelfth or something like that—”
I guess. It’s hard to—I don’t remember a whole—when they first put them in
Interviewer: “Yeah, but what you remember is when they’re actually building the base.”
Right. Yeah.
Interviewer: “So now you’re bringing stuff in.”
Yeah, we’re bringing stuff in. Bulldozers. We’re bringing in artillery pieces and resupplies. All
kind of heavy stuff they need.
Interviewer: “All right. Were there some loads that were harder to manage than others?”
Yeah. Conex containers. Big, square, steel boxes. They tended to want to flop around in the
wind, and you don’t want them flying too far back up behind you because they can go through
your blades. (28:09) They were hard to carry. You had to go pretty slow with them. Not relative
to Ripcord, but downed aircraft—Cobras—were very hard to haul. They wanted to fly.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “So the—I mean, the rotors would go, or…?”
The way it was—The way they were streamlined, for some reason, they’d just get lift. And
they’d want to fly.
Interviewer: “So they’d kind of being going up—”
Yeah, they’d be rising up. And I was hauling one one time, and I—We have a cargo mirror, and I
looked up in it. And I’d seen the tail boom of the Cobra up here, so we had to slow down a lot.
But they were very difficult to haul.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what are some of the most challenging missions in terms of things
to pick up or drop off?”
Bulldozers. You had to get really, really low on fuel to pick them up and carry them because
they’re so heavy. We carried other downed Chinooks with a Chinook, and you’d have to get
really low on fuel. We had some radio relay stations around Khe Sanh that were very, very bad
places to go, so we’d haul a double load. Instead of eight thousand, we’d carry sixteen thousand
pounds.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now why were the relay stations bad places?”
They were just out in the boonies. We had no support out there. Just a small team on top of a
mountain that would relay radio signals.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, so there wasn’t a whole lot of room to land or anything?”
There wasn’t a whole lot of room to land, and there’s a lot of really bad guys there. And we
didn’t like to go but once if we had to. Just drop one load off instead of going back a second
time.
Interviewer: “Yeah, but there were things that they needed a Chinook for instead of
Hueys?”
Well, yeah, because we could get so much more in. So much quickly. (30:01) I mean, I don’t
know how much a Huey can sling load, but, you know, we could carry sixteen thousand pounds.
That’s a lot.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when the weather was okay, how much flying would you do in a
day?”
I’d say, on average, ten hours a day when the weather was good. I had one day I flew twentyseven straight hours.
Interviewer: “All right. How long typically does a mission take?”
�Mackey, Michael
We broke—Our missions were funny. We had sorties. We’d get a sheet every morning that told
us how many sorties we’d got. We’ve got to pick this thing up here. Take it here. That’s a
mission. Pick this up here. Take it here. That’s a mission. Probably a hundred if you counted
them that way. A hundred missions a day.
Interviewer: “Okay, because there’s the different stops that you’re making.”
Different—Yeah, just—Everything’s a mission.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, so you’re within a relatively defined geographical area.”
Absolutely. We’d know—After you’d been there three months, you know every hilltop, every
grid square, everything. I mean, it’s just in your head. You don’t have a—We didn’t even have a
map.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now to what extent did the latter part of Ripcord kind of stand out in
your experience?”
Terror. Just pure—Scared every time we had to go in there.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Did it get bad in terms of starting to take fire before the siege started,
or is it really at the beginning of July when things get ugly?”
Well, even really before that we took fire just about every time we went to Ripcord. We’d alter
our routes in and out and airspeed and altitudes and the way we came in, just trying to confuse
people. We got to the point we were doing what we call a high overhead approach. You’d fly
over Ripcord at fifteen hundred feet over it, and you’d start a standard rate turn, either right or
left. It didn’t matter. And start a descent of fifteen hundred feet a minute, and you’d do a 360
right over the top of the firebase. And when you finish the 360, you’re just about where you
wanted to be. And just get the load and went. (32:05)
Interviewer: “All right, and would you actually land on the firebase, or would you just
unhook the load and…?”
No. The load would hit the ground, we’d punch it off, and back up in the air.
Interviewer: “All right. Now what were the biggest dangers there?”
Rockets and mortars because they would hit the pad quite frequently. Actually, sometimes quad
50 machine guns. Quad-51s.
Interviewer: “They had those?”
Oh, yeah.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Because I knew they had the .51 caliber anti-aircraft guns, but I didn’t
realize they had the quads.”
They had the quad 50s. Quad-51s. I’m sorry.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, because the Americans had quad 50s.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “But—Yeah, and then did they have heavier anti-aircraft guns, too?”
They did, but I’m not sure they were around Ripcord. They had 37 mm’s and 40 mm’s, but I
don’t remember them being around Ripcord with them. They could have been. I just don’t
remember.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Yeah, I think it was also like a 14.7 mm machine gun, so they had the
equivalent of a .50-cal.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so I guess that’s the—”
A 51.
Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s 51. Okay, so you’ve got those. All right. Yeah, and were there
altitudes or levels where you could fly that was—Would you just get high enough they
couldn’t hit you, or...?
No. No, you could stay out of small arms fire. Fifteen hundred feet’s what they figured, but—So
a 51 can reach out and get you. A 37, a 40. So yeah, I mean, you weren’t ever really out of the
range of stuff.
Interviewer: “All right. Now as they got toward the end, I mean, you had a Chinook from
another unit actually crash on the base on the eighteenth of July. How did you hear about
that, or what did you learn about it?”
I was right in front of him.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what did you do that day, or…?”
We had shot an approach on Ripcord, and the pathfinder had told us—We always called a
pathfinder. Get a situation report. Is the LZ hot, or—Of course, they say no whether it is or not
because they want the stuff. So I went in, and I dropped my load off. And I took some 51 fire
going in. And I came out the other side, and I heard the Pachyderm bird calling that he was
coming into Ripcord. The pathfinder told him the same thing—that it was not hot—and I went
up on my VHF—on their VHF frequency, and I told them, “I just left there, and I did take some
�Mackey, Michael
fire going in.” And he went on anyway. Well, we all would’ve done it anyway. It’s no big deal.
(34:11) But he got shot down. So that’s how I knew about that one.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, and then that—basically that crashed on top of the [?]
bunker, and the whole 105 mm battery kind of went up.”
That’s the day I flew twenty-seven straight hours.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what were the—What were your other missions now? Once that
happened, what were you doing?”
Resupplying all the firebases around Ripcord to support them because they had no way to fire
anymore, and they were just kind of a sitting duck. So all—I remember Gladiator and
Henderson, I think, were two of the ones that we resupplied all night long.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. All right, and then, of course, a few days later they give up, and
they decide to evacuate the firebase. So what do you recall about that?”
Yeah. I’m getting short then. I don’t have much time left in country, and I’m really not supposed
to be flying anymore because about the last thirty days we just would fly bus runs and easy
missions that weren’t dangerous so that we could get home. And they were short of aircraft
commanders, and I remember them telling me I was going to have to fly again. And I remember
the briefing that evening and them telling us what we’re going to do. And it was—It was pretty
scary.
Interviewer: “So what happens to you?”
We went in—I forget what number ship I was—and to pick up a 155 Howitzer and evacuate it. I
was either three or five. Somewhere in the middle. There were like—I don’t want to say
seventeen, eighteen. I don’t remember how many ships there were, but I was in the middle sort
of. I went in there, and I remember—Just as I settled over the load, I remember three explosions
right in front of me, and then the gun or the crew chief said they were three right behind us,
which they’ve got you bracketed. And just as I picked the load up and pulled off, they said three
came right down where we were. (36:06) And I smoked back then, and I think I smoked a pack
of cigarettes in fifteen minutes. And that was my last official flight in Vietnam other than I might
have flown a bus run to a hangar or something after that but nothing dangerous after that.
Interviewer: “All right. Now when you got to Vietnam, was your father still there?”
No, because it had worked out with a transition and everything. I was going over as he was
coming back. And then as I was coming back, my brother was going over.
Interviewer: “All right. Now you’re coming back at this point. How much time do you have
left on your enlistment?”
I have—I took a direct commission, so I have probably two years.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Okay, so at what point did you get the direct commission?”
I got it in Vietnam about mid-tour.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so now you’re a commissioned officer. So you moved up to
the next level.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then when you come back, where do they send you
next?”
Fort Rucker, Alabama.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what do you—Now you had mentioned getting armor training at
some point.”
Oh, yeah, I went through the armor basic course en route to Fort Rucker.
Interviewer: “Okay, so why were they having you do that?”
I was an armor—They gave me a commission in armor, which is tanks. So my thinking—I didn’t
have to go to that. I requested it because I figured if I was going to stay in, I needed to have that
because Vietnam was ending. They’re going to have a big reduction in force. I knew that. And I
figured that if I wasn’t at least basic course qualified in armor, I would get rifted, which is, a
reduction, of course, and removed from the service. So I did that and went to that first.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what did you actually do during those two months?” (38:06)
You learned to be a tanker, which was interesting, and it was very cold. This was—I don’t know
what—Maybe it was September, October.
Interviewer: “Was that at Fort Knox?”
Yeah, Fort Knox, Kentucky, and it was—With the wind chill—And we played night defensive
position and in tanks. Tanks didn’t have heaters, and it was like minus twelve degrees with the
wind chill. And I’d just got back from Vietnam and 120 degrees or whatever it was. I about froze
to death. But the tanks were fun. The tanks were a lot of fun. I was amazed with their accuracy.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of tanks were you in?”
A M60.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, those ones were kind of too big for Vietnam.”
�Mackey, Michael
Yeah. Well, yeah, they were too big for Vietnam, and they were kind of too outdated for
nowadays. But they were still fun.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, but did you do that just because you had to have a
specialization as an army officer, or…?”
Yes, it was pretty much that because the reason that they gave warrant officers direct
commissions was because the people with the branches in the department of the army knew there
was a reduction of force coming. And they wanted to keep their branch qualified people. So if
they gave warrant officers a bunch of direct commissions, when the quota came down, they’d rift
them.
Interviewer: “All right, but while you train in armor, they don’t assign you to armor. They
send you to Fort Rucker. You’re back with aviation. Okay, and what’s your first job at
Fort Rucker?”
First job at Fort Rucker is the S1 of the Student Aviation Battalion. Student Aviation Battalion is
the battalion that trains all the student aviators. Warrant officers, candidates, and officers are all
under Sixth Battalion.
Interviewer: “Okay, and were you doing actual training or just administrative work?”
(40:01)
Administrative work. I was an admin. Pencil pusher.
Interviewer: “All right, and did you like that job, or did you want to get out of it?”
I liked it pretty good. Yeah, except we had to go to every graduation party, and it just got to be—
Every week I was going to two or three parties.
Interviewer: “Did you still get to fly at all?”
Yeah. You still have to fly. You have to maintain—I think it was eighty hours a year to maintain
your qualifications.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how long did you do that?”
I was probably doing that for a year. Little over a year.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you get a new assignment after that?”
Yeah, Army Community Services. I was the Army Emergency Relief officer.
Interviewer: “What do they do?”
�Mackey, Michael
It’s like a loan or a grant company for GIs who are in financial trouble, and I make the
determination whether they get the money or not. And back in that time frame it was pretty
important because nobody got paid anything. It was just a struggle for enlisted people to—just to
survive. And so—And we were kind of a direct liaison between Fort Rucker and the
communities around there, which was also pretty important at that time.
Interviewer: “Okay. Okay, so what groups or institutions in the community did you deal
with?”
I just dealt primarily with the military part of it. We had other sections that dealt with the
community. But I actually didn’t have to wear a uniform. I wore a coat and tie to this job. And
occasionally I had to do a briefing for incoming wives or something to tell them what was
available on a post. Things like that. And we worked directly for the post commander. Two star
general.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay. All right. Now did you live on the base or off the base?”
Off.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have a family at this point, or were you still single?”
Yeah, I had a wife and a little daughter. (42:01)
Interviewer: “All right. Now somewhere along the line you had reenlisted? Or did that
come along with becoming the officer? You just had to extend, or…?”
No. No, what happens with the army back then was when you first take commission, you have a
certain obligation that you promise to fulfill. But you can make an agreement with the army. It’s
called a voluntary indefinite, which—I volunteer to stay as long as I want to, and you volunteer
to keep me as long as you want to. So I can stay basically until they decide they don’t want me
anymore or I don’t want to be there. So that’s what I was. Voluntary indefinite.
Interviewer: “All right, and so how was it that you wound up leaving the army?”
I got tired of it. They—I forget what year they changed to the—They call it the volunteer army.
Interviewer: “About ‘73, ‘74.”
Yeah, somewhere in the mid ‘70s. Somewhere around there. And they just started getting some
really, really bad people. They were taking anybody. And then I also came down on orders to
Germany. Took me out of aviation and put me in a tank company in Germany, which is—even
for experienced armor officers—is a killing ground. I mean, they just chew you up, spit you out,
and—
Interviewer: “Why was that bad?”
�Mackey, Michael
Well, they put you in the field, and so many of those guys that were—They got relieved out there
of their commands in armor. And plus, I didn’t want to be in—I wanted to fly. I didn’t want to
ride around the tank in the cold. So I had to make a decision. I’d been in close to nine years, and
I felt in my head if I stayed ten, I had to stay the other ten, which is maybe stupid. But I still
thought that, so I just quit.
Interviewer: “Okay, so the—You know, there’s a, you know, fair amount out there about
sort of the decline in morale in parts of the military and stuff after Vietnam or at the end
and sometimes problems with the all-volunteer army. You know, but sometimes, I mean,
aviation units might at least still get better people than other places. But was it still a—But
you were even seeing that in your area?”
Yeah, even in aviation it was starting to get that way. (44:22) My last year in the army I was in a
medevac company. Medevac detachment. And we had a Medical Service Corps major that liked
to go out in the desert in El Paso and play army. And we had an active mission. We had MAST,
which was Military Assistance to Field Unit Traffic—I think what’s they called it—where we
supported the civilian community as well as military. So we would have a first up where you
slept on the airfield, and if a mission came up, you had to go out on it. And we had a second up
that would go in and fill in for the first up if he went up. So you’d have first up, second up, and
then a day off basically. And this major liked to take us all out in the field for a week. And we’d
go out and set a tent up, and about two o'clock in the morning, he’d wake us up and tell us to
pack up. And we’re going to move and set up camp somewhere else. And we did that, and I
just…
Interviewer: “It got a little—Okay. Couple of other kind of general Vietnam questions.
There’s a lot of stereotypes about what went on in Vietnam and so forth we kind of take for
granted, and one of them has to do with drug use. Did you see any evidence of that while
you were over there?”
Very little. Aviation units—We didn’t—There was some marijuana smoking. I’m sure of that,
but other than that, no, we didn’t really—We didn’t really see it.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and another one has to do with race relations.”
Saw that, saw that.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how did that play out with what you saw?” (46:02)
Well, we had a lot of—In 101st, we had a lot of fraggings. They had little, outdoor movie
theaters back at the base camps where you’d—Guys could set up—watch a movie. There were
people rolling hand grenades down there fragging people. I actually had—Officer of the guard—
One night—It was either New Year’s Eve or Fourth of July or something, and the lieutenant that
ran the perimeter told me—said, “Now at midnight I don’t want anybody shooting off star
clusters or anything, and if they do, I want you to go take care of it.” Well, about midnight this
Duster—40 mm track vehicle—started shooting off star clusters. So I went over there like I was
told. And I was beating on the back of this thing, and he finally lowered the ramp. But smoke—
�Mackey, Michael
marijuana smoke—came out like crazy. And these two black guys came out and locked and
loaded their M16s, and I said—I don’t remember—something to the effect of, “This is
Lieutenant Mackey, and you need to not be firing them star clusters. And they said, “Lieutenant,
you better find your ass away from here.” And that’s what I did. Too many officers died of
friendly fire. I didn’t want to be one of them.
Interviewer: “All right, but, I guess, for the most part, your—the aviation unit itself didn’t
have that sort of issue.”
No, no. No, we didn’t—We didn’t have—I don’t remember that we had too many black people,
but any of them that we had were—There was no problem. We never had any kind of a—
incidents.
Interviewer: “Yeah. There were other guys who were sent to the rear from other places.”
Yeah, the—Usually, the people on the perimeter were the dregs that other companies didn’t
want. They’d just send them out there, so you’re dealing with bad people, both black and white.
But it didn’t matter. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. Now once you leave the army, now what do you do?” (48:04)
Let’s see. I opened an Indian jewelry company with my roommate who was a West Point
graduate. We did that for a while and part-time I was working security for Concerts West. I ran
security for them in El Paso for rock concerts. And then I got in the car business, and that’s
where I stayed for many more years.
Interviewer: “Yeah. How did you wind up in El Paso?”
Fort Bliss, Texas is where I got out, and that’s El Paso, so…
Interviewer: “Oh, okay, so after Fort Rucker, you’re in Fort Bliss.”
Yeah, I went to—Well, I went to Korea. I didn’t—We didn’t get to that part yet.
Interviewer: “Korea! Yes, tell me about Korea. You hadn’t mentioned Korea before.”
Well, I went from Fort Rucker to Korea. And I liked Korea.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay. What was you job there?”
I was the operations officer for a Chinook company.
Interviewer: “Okay, and where were they based?”
In Camp Humphreys.
�Mackey, Michael
Interviewer: “Okay, which is near anything in Korea? Was it near the DMZ, or…?”
Anjeong-ri. Or Osan’s close by. Pyongtaek.
Interviewer: “Okay. How far were you from the DMZ?”
Probably seventy miles, eighty miles.
Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re someplace south of that.”
Yeah, yeah, I’m not on DMZ.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, all right. Yeah, and so how are you spending your time
there?”
Badly.
Interviewer: “Okay, so there wasn’t a whole lot of stress there at that point, or…?”
No, there was no stress. I was just behaving badly.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay. How long were you there?”
A year.
Interviewer: “Okay, so when was that?”
‘73 to seventy—No, ‘72 to ‘73. I’m sorry.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so you tried on some different places at different points. In
Germany and Korea and so forth and in Texas. Okay, so the last assignment was in El
Paso. Yeah, and so that’s when you were doing all of that with the medevac—”
Yeah, in El Paso. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, so the car business. All right, so as car dealer, seller,
repairer…?” (50:12)
Seller for several years. I did several different things in the car business. I was a used car
manager, finance manager. I owned my own little car lot for a while. I was a wholesale manager
for a large multi-dealership. Multi-franchise dealership.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how do you wind up in South Carolina?”
I left El Paso. I partied a lot in El Paso. And I don’t if that was from Vietnam or not, but I was
having fun, I thought. There’s a bar I used to go in all the time that Bandidos bikers used to hang
�Mackey, Michael
out in, and I knew most of them. We were fine. But one of them I didn’t like, and he didn’t like
me. And one night we—He had a lot too much to drink, and I had maybe too much to drink. And
he came around threatening people at the bar, and I decided when he got to me, I was going to hit
him with a long neck Bud. And I did. Well, the next day one of my other friends in the Bandidos
told me I better get out of town because he planned to kill me. So I left. I mean—And it just so
happened I had a friend who had a friend who was the ferrying aircraft for a living, and he was
ferrying one to Myrtle Beach from El Paso. And I told him, “Well, I’ll fly co-pilot for you and
help you fly and navigate.” And he said, “Fine. Come on.” And he dropped me off in Columbia,
and that’s how I got back there.
Interviewer: “Okay, okay. All right, so what year was that?”
That was 1980.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and so what kind of career then did you have after that, or
did you stay with cars, or…?”
Yes, sadly.
Interviewer: “All right, so how do you think they—You suggested a little bit. Do you
think—I mean, have you been diagnosed with PTSD or anything like that?”
Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: “And when did you kind of…”
Find that out?
Interviewer: “Find that out. Yeah.” (52:01)
I actually—I’d never—I didn’t know the VA could do anything for us because they never told us
anything. That we could look for help. Well, one day I had a—I forget what—Back of my hand I
had something just start popping open. It scared me. I thought it was skin cancer, and it turned
out to be that. But it was not a bad one. And I had no insurance. I didn’t know what the hell I was
going to do, so I figured I might as well go to the VA and see if they can help me. And I go out
there, and I get a very nice, old doctor. And he told me all the things that they could do for me.
He looked at that, and he set me up with the cancer people and set me up with a psychiatric
evaluation or something where I went and I actually talked to a lieutenant colonel in the army
who had been—Prior service in—Oh, he was a lieutenant colonel in the army with prior service
in the Marine Corps as a machine gunner in Vietnam. So I was talking to him. Just—We were
having a discussion, and he was asking me questions. Kind of like you asking me questions. And
he said, “You know, you have PTSD.” And I said, “No, I don’t.” And he said, “Yeah, you do.” I
said, “No, I don’t.” So they set me up with a shrink, and I went to this shrink for—VA shrink for
probably ten years. And she finally just wrote a letter and said, “Yeah, you’re screwed up.” But I
don’t know. I guess they based a lot of—I changed. I must have worked for thirty different
people after I got out of the military. I just was everywhere. Somebody pissed me off, I quit. I
�Mackey, Michael
didn’t care if I was making a hundred grand a year, I’m not going to—If I think I’m right, I’m
going to leave.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. Now did any of the therapy or anything like that eventually,
you know, help you get control of stuff or cope with things better, or…?”
Maybe a little. I think talking to her helped a little bit, but—And just, I guess, maybe
acknowledging the fact that maybe I did because I really didn’t believe I did. I mean, I just—
Interviewer: “Well, there’s different kinds. I mean, there’s the reflex stuff where you
respond to noises or you don’t want to—You always want to have your back to a wall and
know where the door is. There’s those kinds of things. And then there’s just other things
that are more a question of the moral injury or just the feelings about what you saw and
went through and things like that. They work in a lot of different ways.” (54:17)
Yeah. Yeah, I used to have bad nightmares. I mean—And it wasn’t—I feel guilty about having
them because the guys that are actually here—They were on the ground here, and I just—I’m in
awe of them. I mean, I’m just in total awe. I couldn’t have done what they did. No kind of way.
Interviewer: “Hard to tell until you’re in it as far as I can tell.”
Well, maybe that’s true, but man, they—I almost sometimes feel guilty about being here.
Interviewer: “Well, I don’t think they’d agree with you.”
That’s what they keep telling me.
Interviewer: “You had a job to do, and so did they. And yours at times was really
dangerous and really scary. You just got to sleep in better conditions than they did.”
Right, and I can run away faster.
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
But yeah, I—I just—And coming to these has been very helpful. I go to Vietnam Helicopter
Pilots Association reunions. It’s not the same as talking to these guys. I’d rather talk to these
guys because I know what the helicopter pilots went through because I was there. But to talk to
the guys who were down there, who were supporting, it’s much more interesting.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right, well, this actually—I think actually this is a good place
probably to kind of close out, and I just want to say thank you for taking the time to talk to
me today.”
Great. I enjoyed it. (55:31)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
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The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_MackeyM2283V
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Mackey, Michael (Interview transcript and video), 2018
Date
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2018-11-03
Description
An account of the resource
Michael Mackey was born in Crawfordsville, Indiana in 1948. Mackey graduated high school in 1966 and began working for a sign company when he recieved his draft notice. Taking his father's advice, he visited an Army recruiter and agreed to a delayed entry into the Army's flight school. He attended Basic Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana, before reporting to Fort Wolters, Texas, for primary flight school and training as a Warrant Officer as well as Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah, Georgia, where he learned to fly Huey helicopters. Mackey was then deployed to Würzburg, Germany, before volunteering to be sent to Vietnam in 1969 where he was attached to Charlie Company, 159th Assault Support Helicopter Battalion, 101st Airborne. His unit participated in the siege on Firebase Ripcord before ending his tour in Vietnam and attending a Basic Armor course in Fort Knox, Kentucky. Afterwards, he became an S1 of the Student Aviation Battalion and then acquired a job as an Army Emergency Relief officer for Army Community Services. Mackey also saw service in Korea as an Operations Officer, Germany as a member of a tank company, and at Fort Bliss in El Paso, Texas, as part of a medevac company. After nine years in the service, Mackey was finally discharged from the Army.
Creator
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Mackey, Michael A.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d51fff9d26891ff91bb215d3ae533b73.mp4
b3d023ad7ff143bfdb9e08e0a0f0eaec
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/825bae5642acd6952dc9e4882d16b2c9.pdf
bd53195b8b7fe23ec394618a6495ddcf
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Melchior Lux
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Sarah Schneider
(0:30) We’re talking today with Melchior Lux of Warren Michigan. He goes by “Mike” so
that’ll be what we’ll be calling him. The interviewer today is James Smither of the Grand
Valley State University Veteran’s Project. Ok, uh Mike give us a little bit of background,
um where and when were you born?
(0:47) I was born in 1935 in Filipowa, that used to be part of Backi Gracac, it’s Serbia now.
(1:00) Ok, Serbia. So what country was it part of when you were born?
(1:04) It was…When I was born, it was probably Hungarian. The Hungarians, they move back
and forth.
(1:15) Ok, but in Serbia were you in Yugoslavia?
(1:17) Yugoslavia, yeah, yeah.
(1:19) Ok, what year were you born?
(1:20) 1935.
(1:22) Ok, uh so you were born there and tell me a little about your family background.
(1:27) My family. Well my father had his own business. He…he was in the hemp business, my
mother and so was also my brother. My brother worked for my father.
(1:42) Ok, how old was your brother when you were born.
(1:45) 10.
�(1:47) Ok, so the Hemp business. So you made rope?
(1:50) Hemp. They made from the raw material, they made it. They worked it so they can make,
so they could spin ropes. So that’s uh … they had not machines, everything was done by hand.
(2:10) Ok, and what language were you speaking as a kid?
(2:11) German.
(2:13) Ok, so describe the town that you grew up in a little bit. What was that like?
(2:18) The town was just a, it was mostly farmers and people that worked for the farmers. There
was no other industry.
(2:30) Ok, and what ethnic group were they from?
(2:33) They were German, all German. 100%, the whole town was 100% German. It was one of
the, I don’t know if there were any other towns that were 100% German. Most the towns were,
the majority were Germans. They had Hungarians and Serbs. Usually the Serbs used to work for
the farmers. And that’s where a lot of heat came in after…in the Second World War.
(3:09) Ok, now back up a little bit. Do you know how long the German population had been
in that area?
(3:16) I’d say about 200 years.
(3:19) Ok, because there’s a period in time in the 18th century when the Austrians were
pushing the Ottoman-Turkish Empire back. And then how did the German population get
there, or why did they go?
(3:30) Pardon me?
�(3:31) Why did the Germans move there?
(3:33) They got promised like parcels of rent if they go there, if they worked rent or cultivated.
And that’s how that all started.
(3:47) So the area that you’re in is, ethnically, you have all these different groups and all
these different places?
(3:53) You have different towns have different ethnic background. Like, we had a town that’s
like two kilometers – I don’t know if it’s Southwest, East or North – they were mostly… those
were people who came out of Czechoslovakia. They spoke a different language; they spoke more
like Serbian. And then you had another town, they had people from Ukraine, from Russia. But,
the majority in the area was mostly Germans or Serbs.
(4:32) Ok, alright, so you’re born in 1935 um then in 1941 the Germans invade.
(4:40) They came in, yeah. They didn’t invade, they just marched in.
(4:44) Yeah, legally it’s still an invasion.
(4:47) Yeah. Most of like our people walk with the Germans naturally because we were German.
(4:55) Ok, now while you were, I mean I’m not sure how much you were aware of it I guess,
while the government was Yugoslavia, the Yugoslavian government was dominated by the
Serbs. How did the Yugoslavian government treat the Germans in the country?
(5:10) I couldn’t really tell. I was too little. But, like I told you before, we were actually like the
city hall was run by Hungary because Hungary and Germany they were allies at that time [after
the Germans took over Yugoslavia], so our city hall was actually run by the Hungarian
�government. Like the police, they were Hungarians. Everybody was scared of them. I remember
that as a kid, and through later when I grew up and my folks talked about it.
(5:49) Ok, now could the Hungarians speak German.
(5:53) I… everyone thought the official language in the city hall was like Hungarian at that time.
But, like the schools, was, we had German, but we had, it was mandatory that you take – I don’t
know if it was one hour or two hours – we had to speak Hungarian, we learned Hungarian words.
(6:18) Ok, so during that period, sort of during 1941, 42, 43, 44 while you were still living in
that town what was your daily life like?
(6:30) What the daily life? Kids were on their own because it was a poor area. All the grown-ups
had to work. We went to school, after school we played, when it was time for dinner you went
home because you know dinner was like at 5 or 6 o’clock, you had to be home.
(6:59) Ok, now did you have enough food?
(7:01) We had more food than we could uh, I told you there was like the breadbasket of
Yugoslavia. That area where I come from.
(7:14) Ok, because in sometimes the Germans might come and take a lot of the food away
or the Hungarians might.
(7:20) Not, not, not that time. That was all after the war was over. Then, well we had food, they
put us in the concentration camps and that’s when everything stopped.
(7:37) Ok, alright, now during the time then where you’re still living at home when the
Germans came through, do you remember seeing any kind of Nazi things like Swastika
flags?
�(7:50) Oh, yeah everybody had Swastika flags on their house. That’s, I told you, there was, but
there was mostly the rich people were against Hitler and the people, like my folks, the average
guy was for Hitler. Because, you know, it was better when he was in power that time.
(8:18) In what way was it better?
(8:20) Well, I guess economically. We had no idea, that is the propaganda machine, we all liked
Hitler as a kid. We all tried to join the Hitler Youth. You couldn’t join that until you were 10, but
we couldn’t wait until we were 10. We just never made it, I never made it ‘til I was 10.
(8:47) Ok, and why was the Hitler Youth attractive?
(8:52) Well, I guess…
(8:53) Like, the uniforms or
(8:56) Naturally the uniforms. We all got wooden guns. You know, like a carbine, like a rifle.
When the Americans used to fly down to Romania to bomb the oil fields, the whole sky was like
silver. Us kids used to go in the ditch and shoot, pretend to shoot the planes down.
(9:26) You saw yourselves as Germans?
(9:29) Yeah.
(9:30) And so, now you’re part of Germany, you’re allied with Germany so at that point as
a kid that was sort of natural.
(9:38) Right, exactly. That was the only language I ever spoke was German.
(9:45) Ok, now in your area was there any kind of Partisan activity?
�(9:52) Very little, but there was yeah. In fact we had like places we could only go so far because,
you know, when you go out of town we know points that was the end because I told you like two
kilometers away them people were for Tito, you know, and there were a lot of parties and
activities they used to captures kids and sometimes burn like a swastika in their face or in their
back. That happened. I didn’t see it, but, you know, we were told.
(10:35) Alright, now if you think back in that period before your family had to move out
are there other particular memories that stay with you?
(10:50) Not really, because, like I said, we grew up, all the kids, you grew up independent. You
know, you had basically, you know right from wrong, we were taught right from wrong. You
didn’t do anything bad because, you know, that just didn’t happen.
(11:14) Ok, did you have brothers and sisters who were close to your own age?
(11:17) No. My brother is 10 years older. He was in the German army. My sister was 9 years
older. She had to go to work.
(11:29) So, you really were by yourself?
(11:31) I was by… my father had his shop in the back, there was a building. So, if I did need
somebody, I would go to him, which I didn’t need to really. We just grew up and you got up in
the morning, you washed your face, put your own food on the table, ate, got dressed, and went to
school.
(11:57) Ok, alright. Now I guess at the end of 1944 things changed a little.
(12:03) Changed, once the Germans were out in October 1944, the Partisans came into town.
And then the rations started, like you got one box of matches for a month and the food was never
�rationed because everyone had plenty food. And they took all the radios away, the bicycles, the
jewelry. In the beginning it wasn’t so much, but after a month, like in the beginning of October
they came in, by the end of October they used to go in houses and just take what they want.
(12:58) Ok, now the Partisans were they Croatian? Were they Serbs?
(13:04) The Partisans mostly were people like Serbs that used to work for the farmers and now
they were not the helper, now they were they were the boss. So, that’s how it basically worked,
but, and then they also, well, half the town retreated with the Germans that fled back to
Germany. We were on the wagon already, but my sister didn’t want to go, she made a lot of fuss,
so my mother pulled out. My father was in the German army, so was my brother.
(13:48) Ok, at what point did your father have to join the German army?
(13:52) The beginning of ’44. Everybody had to join if you wanted to go out and hunt. They,
actually, they got a rifle and they got five…first they wore like guarding to town, because we had
like five factories that worked hemp and they started burning. And you know, the Partisans used
to come there and tried to light them up. So, they, first they wore like, uh, just like guards.
(14:28) Yeah, like police or security guards?
(14:30) Yeah and then in the middle of ’44, he had to join the German army just before they
retreated.
(14:40) Ok, so he retreated along with them, then?
(14:43) Well he was in the army. He got us, actually, he got us a wagon so we could go. His
commander gave him some, he probably lied to him, he gave him a wagon and told him, “Make
sure that your kids and your wife flee.” And we were, it was just like the 49ers go out west.
�That’s how they said like maybe 20 – 30 wagons and they all stayed together. They had one
leader, I guess.
(15:21) But in the end you didn’t go …
(15:23) We didn’t go, so that’s … then it got bad and they used to uh, my mother and my sister,
they used uh to go to work – everybody that was able to work – the Partisans would come and
they had to do, I don’t know exactly, they just took them out of town. Like my mother was in …
there was a German airfield where they had to go flatten it out because it got, they used a plough
and they had to level the ground off again. And my sister, I don’t know where she had to work,
they used to come home at night and right after Christmas they got a certain age group and they
told them that they had to come and form at the city hall and then they told them to go home and
bring fifteen days’ worth of food and clothes and then they took them and I don’t know where
they went. They ended up in Russia, of course we didn’t know it at that time. My sister was like
five years in Russia.
(16:45) In Russia?
(16:47) As a prisoner, yeah. There was like, Tito promised Russia for his work heads [camps?]
he had to send workers. So that was the where there was a certain age group. Like my cousin she
had two little babies, she had to leave them behind.
(17:13) Did they target ethnic Germans?
(17:16) That’s all there was, was Germans, yeah ethnic Germans. Matter of fact, if you had …
There were some Germans who had a slavish [Slavic] name and they had it a little better, but that
was only a few families. But, basically all the Germans in a certain age group, a certain
percentage, they just took out and shipped them to Russia.
�(17:50) Now, did you stay with your mother?
(17:53) I stayed with my mother then, and then a few weeks later my mother had to go. They
picked her up of course we didn’t know where she was, she just never came back home. She
ended up in a hard labor camp and so I was sleeping by myself in the house and I saw the
neighbors and I had my aunt she lived right next door to me. But, mostly I was by school friends
their parents, ate there and then by night I had to go home and sleep by myself. That’s the scary
part, that what I remember.
(18:40) Now how long did that go on?
(18:42) That went on for like two months. Then, on Good Friday ’45, I was in March. They came
and started in one end of the town and went house to house, like three Partisans or two Partisans,
and they came in if there was somebody in the house they could take whatever they want of
course you couldn’t take that and you have five minutes to leave. They started on the North end
and I lived on the South end. And, because there was a great big meadow, I could view houses
from my house and we all, the whole town, got put in the meadow with whatever you took along.
They kept us there all afternoon and then at night they put us two streets before the railroad
station. They put I don’t know how many people in each house, whatever it took and then the
following Saturday we were put in cattle wagons and we got shipped out to, it was a town we
called it a concentration camp, it was a town. You had like a regular bedroom, you had like
maybe ten people that are sleeping on the floor. They put straw in there and that’s how it was and
then you had one … there was one house there was like a kitchen and that’s where you picked up
your food and you got a coffee cup full of ground cole [cabbage] and water soup without salt,
without grease. And I went there with my aunt and my aunt had two little babies so I basically as
a ten year old, I actually was nine and a half, and I had to help her.
�(21:28) I think before you had mentioned that you had an aunt with two babies that you
said had to go away?
(21:34) Pardon me?
(21:35) Didn’t she … Did you have an aunt who was taken away along with your sister? Or
was that a different person?
(21:40) No, that was the two babies’ mother that got taken away. She was also in Russia, but she
died.
(21:49) Ok, so the babies are left with what is really their grandmother?
(21:51) With their grandmother, yes.
(21:53) That was your aunt?
(21:55) That was my aunt, yeah. And when they took us in the concentration camp I just, well
they took everybody you had no choice.
(22:07) Was this camp still in Yugoslavia?
(22:08) Yes.
(22:12) Were there Partisans guarding you?
(22:14) Yes, there were Partisans guarding the whole town. Each street they had soldiers; you
know big guns. That was day and night. There was no wire, but we used to sneak out at night and
go begging but that’s because the food was so bad.
(22:38) So, when you went begging where would you go?
�(22:40) We went to a city that was basically inhabited by Serbs and Hungarians and we’d sneak
out at like twelve o’clock at night because we know when the guards change and so on. We’d
walk, we’d go out of town and there were piles of straw from farmers and we’d crawl in their
until it got daylight and then we’d walk like 15 km, or like 10 miles something like that it’s a
little less than 10 miles.
(23:22) Ok, and then when you would beg would you try to go to Hungarian families?
(23:25) No, we’d go from house to house. The Hungarians were not too fond of the Germans but
the Serbs, the Serbian people, were good. I mean not everyone gave you something, but most
people gave you a little bit.
(23:48) Now, did you have the sense that most of the Serbs didn’t like the Partisans either?
(23:53) No, I wouldn’t know. I would not know because most of the Partisans came from … it
just was there were guys that used to be workers for the farms, there were stories going around,
they were really bad.
(24:14) So, it’s just a very difficult time and a very confusing time.
(24:20) But it was, we didn’t know. You know, as a kid you don’t know. Besides being hungry,
we all were hungry that’s why you went begging. Especially for my aunt who helped the little
kids. I mean, I called them little one was a year and a half the other was like three. So, every
little bit helped but I just stuck along.
(24:57) Now the Partisans, so they weren’t like taking roll every day? They weren’t
counting all the people every day?
(25:03) No, no, no.
�(25:05) They just didn’t want you to leave?
(25:06) Matter of fact when we used to go back a lot of times they intercepted us so once they
had officers they had fifteen, twenty, intercepted. We used to go begging in groups of three or
four. You know, you get out all alone you know and then you meet each other at a certain point,
but when they used to intercept us, and then they made us sing Hitler songs. They all, most of
them could speak some German probably and then they beat us up. That was their sport.
(25:46) Ok, but they weren’t lining you up and shooting you or things like that?
(25:49) No, no, no.
(25:50) They just brought you back.
(25:52) They did only occasionally there was like probably what we thought what old people
maybe like twenty, twenty-five years old. When they caught them, they used to beat them up so
bad. I remember we got … once they put us in a cellar in a farmhouse there were thirty-nine
people in there and they put a hot kettle of oil in there. That was their thing. And they’d get
fumes and they’d lock up the basement - we call it cellar basement is what you got here - then in
the morning they let you out because once you get fresh air again, you almost fall over. Then the
older people, they had look in the sun for us kids, we were supposed to look in the sun too but
they didn’t beat us up, but they beat them. I’ve seen them when they beat people so bad. If you
look in the sun and you close your eyes, you can’t close your eyes they were watching. That
didn’t happen daily, that just happened at one experience I had. And a lot of times they
intercepted us just before you get into town, they took you to the main building. They had a big
cellar they’d lock us in sometimes for two, three days. You know, and then they’d come up once
they figured we were in for long enough they’d let us out and we’d go out the front door and
�back the back door because we knew where all the knapsacks were from when they took food
away from other people and you’d steal it and run and run to church. There was the church
across the street. You’d hide in there for a while and then when you’d think it was time … it was
like a game.
(28:12) Now, most of the time did you not get caught?
(28:17) Most of the time, I didn’t get caught.
(28:21) Now how long did you have to stay in that camp?
(28:24) I was like, I was there from like March to the 22nd of December ’46. In the meantime,
after about a year my mother escaped a hard labor camp and she came to our camp, but she was
with me and she wasn’t with me. Somehow there was another camp within the camp where they
had people who were able to work. I can see that out of her statement that, like I said, she
worked in that camp, she had to go to work.
(29:13) But would you ever get to see her or spend any time with her?
(29:16) I’d see her like sometimes in the morning really quick and sometimes at night and then I
don’t know where she went.
(29:28) So, mostly you’re still living with your aunt at this point?
(29:30) Yeah, I always lived with my aunt until my mother somehow there was maybe sixty to
one hundred people, they had to pay to a guy to take you across the border. We went from, we
escaped there and went to Hungary. And when we crossed the border there was a daily thing
where they, the Partisans, opened up with the machine guns and would just shoot. There was
�always a lot of dead people. We’d seen them, everyday they came with the wagons and you’d
see the legs hanging. I used to live on the main street by the cemetery, close to the cemetery.
(30:24) So, was your town close to the Hungarian border?
(30:28) The camp was, yeah. Actually, what was our town was supposed to be the concentration
camp. Originally, they brought people from other towns into our town. And then I don’t know
who made the decision to put the concentration camp closer to the Hungarian border. That was
our luck, because if they would’ve had it in our town and if we would’ve gotten the food that
they had there, we all would have died. They had daily eighty, sixty people die from
malnutrition.
(31:15) So, your mother did she have to bribe, is she paying someone to smuggle?
(31:21) She was paying, yeah. I don’t know where she got the money. They usually had jewelry,
or whatever they had left. Whatever or however she got it, I don’t know.
(31:34) Now, do you remember yourself getting out of the country?
(31:39) Yeah.
(31:39) What happened, what did you do it during the day or at night?
(31:41) At night. Yeah, I know when we crossed the border. When they started shooting. We all
got scared and I found my mother again and of course she would scream, and you’re scared. And
then we went in Hungary, well we didn’t know where to go we just kept walking. And we found,
they had isolated houses like between towns. Most of those were from farms. And there was
light, and we went in there and through sheer luck there was a man that was actually from our
town. He was the help. There was a cow and a calf. And he got us organized to go live with some
�Hungarian people for a week or so, my mother helped out because the farmer’s wife was sick.
And we got a little money and then eventually we started heading towards Germany. So, we
hopped a train, got to the train. We had a little money and you run out you had to get off and
kept walking, so you walked on to the next station. You basically walked close to the railroad
tracks because you knew that they went north.
(33:27) Now did you, Hungary at that point doesn’t have a border with Germany. Did you
go into Austria?
(33:33) Hungary had a border. Hungary had a border with Yugoslavia. Hungary had a border
with Austria. Yeah, we walked basically all of Hungary. I mean, we hopped trains, we walked.
Matter of fact when we crossed the border from Austria there was somehow, we got together
with another group and we were almost on the border and the Hungarian police started shooting.
No … I think it was the Hungarians, they started shouting for us to stop. They thought we were
Russian soldiers. Hungary was occupied by the Russians too and the Russian soldiers used to go
try to find women. I just know this from my mother, I couldn’t say that. And the Hungarians
thought that we were Russian. So, when they started shooting, they had to take us back, so they
took us back into town and they fed us really good and they treated us, the port police. And at
four o’clock in the morning they ordered us to get ready and took us to the Austrian border. And
so, it was the same thing. We walked basically through Austria, hopped trains, and you know
you get kicked off and we ended up in Vienna. And there was like a little camp where people
that was sort of like organized for people that were fleeing through. They’d get like a day or two
break. And we were there and from there we went to go North, we went to Linz, that’s in Austria
also and we were there like two weeks I think, and my mother got, that’s when my mother got
interviewed. She gave like a statement of what happened to her.
�(36:06) Ok, and so the document that you showed me before the interview, that was her
testimony? [a translated version of this document is attached to this file]
(36:10) Yes, that’s her testimony of what happened to her.
(36:14) Was she applying for refugee status?
(36:17) No.
(36:18) That was just for being allowed into Germany?
(36:21) We crossed a border every time, except when we got to see in Austria like when we got
out of Vienna, that was a Russian zone. So, we walked in the Russian zone. In order to go in like
Linz is a city in Austria that’s across the Danube, that was the American zone. My mother had a
picture, like a group picture, and the Russians gave us a passport to get across, but the Americans
didn’t want us so we … there was always like a group, like 10 – 20 people when I’m talking
because that’s how we, nobody went individual. So, when we got across the, we walked across
the Danube on the bridge. When we got there, on the American side, but they didn’t want to let
us through. And there was a trick as a kid you had to cry and so they felt sorry for us, so they let
my mother and myself go through, but the next group they didn’t let go through. They had to go
back, so the Russians took them actually. Then people were two weeks earlier in Germany than
we were. (37:52) We went to Linz, like I said, we stayed there a couple weeks. Then we went to
Passau, that’s a city in Germany. I had an uncle that lived close to that area, we had a destination
where we’d go. So, when we crossed the border from Austria into Germany, we laid there all
night in the woods until it got daylight and then we’d cross the border. And when we went, it
was a rainy day when we went. And the first guy we’d seen with a bicycle had a tarp over his
head was a border police. We asked him for directions to the railroad station. When he found out
�where we came from, he tried to put us back. There was, I cried again and he let us go and we
found the railroad station and when we walked up the steps, my mother – there were people
already from our hometown – she just happened to run into a person, she said “Your mother and
father are in the main waiting room.” My grandmother and my father were going to go to the
Red Cross in Passau to look for us. Nobody know from nobody where anybody is. That’s how I
met my father after two, after he was about two years. My grandmother she fled, she retreated
with the German army. We had no idea where she was and she, they all went to my uncle. And
so then my brother when he got released from the army that’s how we found each other.
(40:01) Now, but your sister was still off?
(40:07) We had no idea where my sister was. We didn’t find that out until 1948. They were
finally able to write, but we had no idea when she comes. Then at the end of 1949, I think,
Russia agreed to let most of them go, but there was a lot of them that perished.
(40:35) Now once you and your mother have made it to Passau and you now have met back
with your father and your grandmother, what does your family do at that point?
(40:45) Well, there is nothing… we had … well my father was just released from a Russian
prison. He was a Russian prisoner. He was released and he stayed with my grandmother. And
when we came, we had to look for someplace to live. So, the German government made
everybody give up a room. So, we lived by a farmer. He gave us our bedroom, living room, and
dining room. There was only one room, that’s how we slept was kitchen, bedroom, bathroom, I
mean, whatever.
(41:37) And did you work on the farm? Or did your father work there?
�(41:41) No. My father couldn’t work no more after the war. There was actually no work and we
stayed there, we got there in ’47 and we stayed there until ’49. And then there were so many
people from different countries, from Czechoslovakia, from Poland.
(42:11) Right, because a lot of ethnic Germans were kicked out of those countries.
(42:14) So, there were so many down that were in Bulgaria and they gave us an option if we
would move to the western part of Germany, they gave us a house, for nothing basically. But my
sister brought, my sister met her husband in Russia. He came, so she brought her boyfriend
along, but of course they got married, but they decided we’d take that offer. So, we went to the
western part of Germany. And there was no work either, there was a poor country and a poorer
area than we what we left. So, we were there for two years and then we left.
(43:07) And what area was that? Or what town?
(43:09) In the Eifel, by Bitburg. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. Bitburg was in the news. And
I know my brother he worked on that airport, the big building, a big airport. The U.S. did that.
And so, we lived there and then there was, uh, my brother ended up in Augsburg, in between
Munich and Augsburg. There was a, what they did, the German government, gave people like us
the option to build houses for 1% interest with a 99-year mortgage. And that’s how my mother,
my parents, my grandparents, of course my grandparents went with us too, to Bitburg, and
everybody put their money together and they ended up building a house by Augsburg. My
brother did that with his wife and his in-laws. Then we went from Bitburg to Augsburg.
(44:32) Now, during this time when you’re in these different places in Germany did you go
back to school?
(44:39) I was done in school when I left Passau.
�(44:43) Ok, so you went to school in Passau?
(44:46) Yeah, and then … well I got out of school in ’48 and all I had to do was go to grade
school, I mean it’s like a grade school. I had to go with the farmers. Then there was also in
Passau the American army created a center for kids who couldn’t find apprenticeship, because to
find apprenticeship you had to have connections. They created a center for kids that volunteered
to come there if your education was as far as middle grade, so I was there they paid us the fee for
the railroad. They gave us the free card. That was a good experience actually.
(45:43) Alright, and did you get to know any of the Americans there?
(45:48) No, it was just created by the American Army. It was like a free thing, that was the first
time I’d seen a baseball bat and a glove. We didn’t know what to do with it, they tried to teach us
but none of us had any interest. We played soccer.
(46:10) And when you were in Bitburg did you work at all?
(46:13) No. I did actually I worked for a farmer for nothing, just for the food. And he was in the
woods at times and he used to track deers and wild boars. That’s the reason I worked for him,
because he took me along. So, we used to track wild boars and deers. For the one week the
American army would come and the next week the French and Austrians would come and they
gave us like eight bucks a day. There was lots, a lot of money for me … yeah and that’s all. Then
when I came back from Bitburg to Augsburg, we had each house had to put 1200 hours’ worth of
labor into the … you had to either work in the house or in the hut. I was the guy who got
appointed to that, because my brother was still in Bitburg and I came with my mother and stayed
with my brother. So, I did the work for basically us and my brother got credit for like I used to
�lay floors, wooden floors. I used to lay wooden floors, paint, stain, whatever there was. Like I
said, you got credit. So, many hours you got actually compensated.
(48:08) So, at this point are you kind of supporting your family?
(48:12) Pardon me?
(48:13) Are you supporting your family at this point?
(48:16) Not … well my, in a way I did without realizing it. I had nothing better, I had no … and
then like three months later I got an apprenticeship. Of course I was looking, we always were
looking for, to find something. So, I had finally gotten an apprenticeship and then I worked.
(48:40) And what kind of work?
(48:43) I was like uh, in the steel trade. You know, it’s like tool die. I would work anything, over
there you did anything and what we did, well you start at seven and you work ‘til five and then
the workers go home and you have to clean the machines and sweep the floor. So, I used to leave
the house at like six and come home six, seven at night every day with the bicycle. I was riding
like every day like fifteen kilometers you go with the bicycle and there was not a ten-speed bike,
it was just a regular bike.
(49:33) Now as time is passing, could you begin to see the German economy doing better?
Were there more jobs, or was it still pretty bad?
(49:43) Actually, when I was there it was ok, but it wasn’t too good. And I … like I said I started
an apprenticeship late. I started three years later than the average guy through moving and stuff.
So, I really had no money. I was like eighteen, nineteen. I got like a dollar and a half each week
�the first year and two dollars the second and three dollars the third. A week. And that’s it, but
that was common.
(50:26) Now, did the government provide any support for your family?
(50:31) Yes, my father couldn’t work. He got just like, he got like 120 marks a month. Which
was, well not enough to live but something. You had to … everybody, nobody got more, they all
got the same.
(50:53) Um, but did you complete the apprenticeship and get a job?
(50:57) I did my apprenticeship and then I went to work for a company that did like caterpillars.
They built buildings, they built bridges. It was all in the steel work, but when I graduated you
couldn’t work as a journeyman until you had your journeymen’s card. You had to go through a
test. I graduated in July and then the next test was not until October. And the place I worked, my
hourly wage would up a mark and eight pennies. So, I started at a shop in this steel firm there for
two mark and fifty cents, I started as a welder. So, I worked as a welder until I got my
journeymen’s card and then I was a welder, mechanic, whatever.
(52:04) Ok, now how is it then that you wound up coming to the United States?
(53:08) Well that was a funny thing. I went, I had a cousin that was the Uncle we met in Passau,
they moved to the US and my cousin was in the American, he came back as a GI, as a soldier
and he came to visit us, came to visit his grandma. So, he said when I get done with my
apprenticeship to come to US and well that didn’t appeal to me really. But I went to Munich to
some party and I came home and I had a bit too much to drink and so the next day my mother got
me out of bed and “I want to stay in bed.” She said. I went drinking and she came with a broom
stick and got me out. So, instead of going to work, I drove, I hopped a train to go back to Munich
�and I had to kill the day so I decided, I found the American Consulate so I went there and filled
out some paper. And I wrote my cousin a letter that day if he would sponsor me, not with the
intentions of coming and five months later, well a few months later they start doing background
checks on me and people would ask me what happened. I said, “I don’t know.” And then I found
out what that was and that started the yeah, I’m going to America. Well, when the time came I
really didn’t want to go because I had friends there and we had a good time, but since I had a big
mouth I had to. So, I came back, I mean I did go to America.
(54:27) So, what year did you get to America?
(54:30) In ’56. I couldn’t speak one work of English. And I started working for General Motors
as a tool and die maker and I just never liked it. I couldn’t speak the language, so I decided to
quit and my supervisor says “No, you don’t quit, you take a leave of absence.” Which I didn’t
want to do but I finally agreed. So, after eight months I went back home. Well, then times were
better in Germany, but I ran out of money, so I came back. Then, I got married and a year later, I
told my wife if you marry me we’re going to move back to Germany so we went back to
Germany in ’61 and things were not the same. Germany’s economy was in a boom, the people
all had cars now, they all had televisions, nobody socialized no more. So, the whole system
changed. In the beginning when nobody had a television, we all met in a beer garden. They had a
place where you played cards and we always had a good time and that was all gone.
(56:09) Now, was your wife American or German?
(56:12) American, but she was of German descent. Her parents were German.
(56:18) So, would you talk to each other in German most of the time?
�(56:21) That we did when my oldest daughter, she was that time like a year and a half. So, my
wife could speak that good, she spoke very good German. So, we spoke German, so the little one
could speak German when we get there. So, when we came back from Germany a lot of the
neighbor kids would laugh at that and she would come home and cry and the kids make fun of
her. So, that’s when we decided to speak English.
(56:57) Ok, and then did you wind up staying as a tool and die maker?
(57:02) Yeah, I worked 36 years for General Motors.
(57:07) Alright, well that makes for a really a very interesting story. Are there other things
when you think about the time you were living in Europe, whether in Germany or before
that, are there other things that stand out in your memory that you haven’t talked about
yet?
(57:23) Not really, I mean the hop from place to place was really not always exciting.
(57:36) Alright, well you’ve had a lot of experiences that a lot of people would have never
even thought would have happened.
(57:42) Well, that’s a good thing.
(57:44) Alright, well thank you very much for taking the time to share your story today.
(57:48) Thank you.
�Translation of affidavit given by Magdalena Lux when requesting permission to enter Germany
with her son, Melchior Lux.
Translated by Sarah Schneider
Factual Report from Magdalena Lux
Maiden name Haus, born on April 26th, 1907 in Backi Gracac, Mother of Melchior Lux, born
September 8th, 1935 in Backi Gracac, Bresowatzer street 17, currently traveling through Linz.
On the 21st of October in 1944 the first soldiers came to our town Backi Gracac. They did not
bother us the first day. On the 26th of October in 1944 the Russians came to our town. I cannot
say anything about them, because they only invaded our town and did not do anything to anyone.
Afterwards the soldiers began to raid. At first, they took clothes, linen, jewelry, furniture, and
gold.
On November 1st, 1944 the Partisans announced that all locals who own radios, bicycles, and
military items must be turned over to them. Those who did not comply were shot.
After November 1st, 1944 those who were fit to work had to work every day in Odzaci at the
city’s airfield in order to make it level. It was ploughed down during the evacuation of the
Germans.
On November 2nd, 1944 (All Souls’ Day) we did not go to work, instead we went to church. We
were also not asked by the soldiers to go to work either. While we were in the church, the
Russians came to the church to collect the workers who worked in Odzaci. The largest group of
the workers were in the church, the Russians chose to surround the church and shoot. After that
we left the church.
On November 11th, 1944 Mrs. Eichinger, born Eichinger, born in 1905 was shot by the soldiers
in front of the vicarage. It was announced before, that the previously mentioned person would be
shot and that the citizens must attend the execution. According to the testimony of my relatives,
who drove the woman who was shot to the cemetery, Mrs. Eichinger had survived. When they
told this to the soldiers, he was slapped, beaten with the butt of the weapon and commanded to
bury her. Before he laid her in the grave, he wanted to wrap her in a cloth, which the soldiers
prevented him from doing.
On November 25th it was announced, that all the men between sixteen and 60 years old needed to
report to the municipal office. From these men 85 were locked in the church and 240 drove to
Odzaci, from where we learned nothing more. The previous year in the fall, an airport in Odzaci
began running, at which one found many human corpses. We assumed that these were the
corpses from Backi Gracac.
�After November 25th, 1944 we had to go to Sombor to the airport for work. We did not receive
food or compensation for the work.
On the 27th and 28th of December in 1944 two carriages left our town for Russia. From our town
320 girls and women and 80 men were sent to Russia through these carriages. So, women were
sent to Russia and would be forcibly separated from their infants and the children had to leave
home without regard of who would take them.
In January 1945 every day we had to go to the field through the cold and snow in order to break
corn, corn leaves to cut, and so on. A group of us had to go to the hemp factory for work. Here,
children as young as seven and men as old as seventy would work. In the factory we would
receive taskwork. One person had to produce one cubic meter of Hemp. We were always told
that those who could not complete his work were sent to Siberia.
In February 1945 all children between the ages of 13 and 17 and their mothers had to go to
Sombor with brooms in order to sweep the streets. None of them returned.
On March 11th, 1945 the soldiers announced that all that are fit for work had to report. When we,
around 500 people, reported we traveled to Sombor. From this, I was assigned to Uprova
centralnog logora with 16 women from Backi Gracac. There we had to organize the Russian and
partisan soldiers’ bathrooms, rooms, and beds. We stayed here for three weeks. Our bedding here
was a small space where we had to sleep on the floor, other than that we were allowed scattered
straw. For food they gave us water soup in the morning. In the middle of the day and the evening
we were given soup with 20 dkg of corn bread.
On April 8th, 1945 we all had to line up. There was something around 1,000 people in the
courtyard. There the soldiers shot around us and threatened us: those who did not hand over all
of their money and jewelry would be shot. This lasted almost the entire day. Almost all of us
were desperate from fear. The men, of whom they could find with no money, they beat so
extensively, that skin from their head hung down.
On April 10th, 1945 nearly 500 men had to go to Osijek in order to build the city railroad track.
The men worked for 5 weeks. From the 500 men, only 150 men returned. Those who returned
told how they had to endure inhumane treatment and were beaten so terribly and that’s how
many of those who passed died. The rest of those who died were shot. Other statements from
those who returned were also terrible.
On May 5th, 1945 I arrived in Novi Sivac with 500 people. We had to walk the entire way,
around 30 km. Once we arrived in Sivac, we had to travel again, around 20 km, to a federal
estate. When we arrived, we would be given work and would work for 2 days in the fields. In the
night we would sleep under the trees. There was no space available for us and the soldiers who
accompanied us, we headed back to Sivac by foot. During these four days we did not receive
anything to eat.
�When we arrived in Sivac we were received by the camp commandor, a Jew, who went down
every row and hit each person in the face with a riding whip. He then put us to work. In Sivac we
had to clean and furnish houses for the Greeks. 5,000 Greeks were coming from Germany to
Sivac. When the work was finished, we were to store the extra stock and the next day we would
sell it to the farmers. We worked by the farmers on the fields. Everyday the camp commander
would drive on the fields to see if we were actually working. He stayed wherever we worked and
let us come to the car. We had to stand still in front of the car and he would hit us in the face
with a riding whip. After he would say that was not all, because we Schwabiens did not deserve
any better. Those who did not work diligently, would receive beatings and it was always like that
for us. You all came to a camp where poisonous blows are. They must sting and bite you until
you’re dead. And a group of you came to a camp where wild and hungry animals who tear and
eat at you until you are all dead. For you, there is no mercy.
At the end of May, the partisans forced captive Ustasas [collaborators] through the city. The
captives must remain in front of the apartment of the camp commander. Then he came outside
and shot three of the Ustasas dead, is what I saw with my eyes. After, the partisans forced the
Ustasas towards Veprovac. Two Ustasas received the company of a Partisan. The colonists in
Sivac, children and women chased the group, they beat them and threw stones at the Ustasas.
In the camp in Sivac we were housed in a space with around 80 people. We had to sleep on the
floor. We could not spread any straw and received no blankets. We had to share 3kg of beans or
berries among 500 people daily and 1kg of flour for the preparation of the meal. We did not
receive salt or fat. We did not receive any medical attention. We had to work on Sundays and
holidays. We could not go to church because it was closed. The cemetery was destroyed. All
crosses and monuments were knocked over and the wooden cross was burnt. In the camp we
were full of vermin. We could not get water to wash and clean ourselves.
On the 27th of July 1945 we arrived at a camp in Sentivan. There we had to go to the Hemp
Factory to get work. By this work we were always forced and constantly beaten. I would once be
beaten at work, only because I wanted to wipe my nose. Since I had diarrhea and was often on
the side, I came away with only 7 sticks. From this I had two teeth knocked out and my nose was
broken. My facial skin had burst. The meals were the same as they were in Sivac. There was also
no medical treatment. The church was closed, the cemetery was destroyed like it was in Sivac.
On October 12th, 1945 I arrived in camp Gakovo. In Gakovo we were housed in private housing.
When we arrived, there were already camp inmates there. We would be housed in those spaces
of the camp inmates who died. There were no more windows or doors. The rooms were full of
vermin – what we were already used to from the other camps. In the morning there was ¼ l of
water soup, at lunch tainted barely soup that one, despite their giant hunger, could not eat. Most
of the camp inmates who ate the soup, died of the consequences. In the evening there was
alternate pea – or bean soup. Often one found no beans or peas in the soup. The food would be
prepared without salt or fat. The medical treatment was very poor. It was a camp inmate who
�was appointed as the doctor, who was very comfortable and who was not even examined. In any
case there were no drugs. We could not visit the church and the cemetery. Now and then on big
holidays we tried stealthy ways to get into the church. The majority of the time we would be
caught by Partisans, driven to the commander’s office and on the entire way beaten with the
gunstock. At the commander’s office they beat us women with the bull’s pizzle on the naked
bottom. After we would be locked in a basement for three days, where we received no food but
only beatings.
At Grakovo 100 parentless children came to the school Kanjiza and would be raised in
communism. One day 80 young boys without parents came from away from here. Where they
came from, we never learned.
Three women from Filipovo – Theresia Hönisch, born Harer, year 1912; Anna Pertschi, born
Gilich, year 1907, country women; Anna Hog, born Flatt, 48 years old – who all had young
children, which before the hunger wailed, that they must die, they had decided, to go begging.
On the way they would be caught by the Partisans and were battered in such a way, that
Hönisch’s spleen would break, and she would die as a result of this. Pertschi would lose her
kidney and in a day she is also dead. Hog dies also due to the beatings in the prison.
After Gakovo came also a large number of soldiers that were returning from Russian
confinement to the camp. They were so beaten every day, that many of them died. Many of them
had their eyes knocked out from the beatings. After the beatings they would be kept in the cellar.
But before they came to the cellar, they must stand on the stairs where they got a blow or a bump
with a riffle so that they would fall headfirst down the stairs. Due to this, the majority of them
would break ribs, legs, arms, etc. When one of them did not fall down the stairs as the Partisans
meant, they must again come to the stairs and begin again. While the unfortunate drop down the
stairs the Partisans laugh and it makes them jolly.
Us women in camp Gakovo must go out in the fields and cut brushwood as well as corn stalks
and pull the corn stubs out of the ground. Afterwards must we go back to the town – and in fact 4
women – and fetch a wagon. That we load up with brushwood or corn stalks and the corn stubs
and then pull the full wagon home. By this opportunity made it the Partisans great joy to hit and
abuse us. We had to pull the wagon there and back about 15 km.
In Gakovo in January and February 1948 died 60 to 80 people, once even 120, daily. The people
died due to scurvy, dysentery and Typhus, frostbite and mistreatment.
The number of camp inmates in Gakovo is unknown to me. The dead were carried out of the
houses onto the street. Every afternoon a manure wagon or wheelbarrow would drove there and
collected the bodies. These were thrown like a piece of wood onto the wagon and were brought
to a mass grave. In a mass grave there were 400 to 600 people.
�While I was in Gakovo, 6 women jumped from torment and hunger into a fire and one hanged
herself. The cellar was the housing that I was in, would often be used as a prison if the cellar of
the Partisan housing was over filled. Next to the cellar was a boiler house. Once, the Partisans
poured from a kettle boiling hot water on 37 caged men, women, and children in the cellar. From
this scalded 5 women and 7 children so badly, that they died from this mistreatment.
On December 20th, 1946 I had decided to go through with my child, what I indeed also
succeeded. I went with only 100 people over the border of Hungary from where I came to Linz.
I testify, that the above statement fully in accordance with the truth and I am always ready to
repeat my statements.
I testify the accuracy through my subsequent signature.
Linz, February 25th, 1947.
Magdalena Lux.
�
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
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The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_LuxM2285V
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Lux, Melchior (Interview transcript and video), 2016
Date
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2016-05-28
Description
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Melchior Lux was born in 1935 in Filipowa, an ethnic German community in Yugoslavia, in 1935. When the German military invaded in 1941, Lux and the Germanic townspeople welcomed the incoming soldiers. His brother joined the German Army and, later, his father was forced into the service in early 1944. When the Germans evacuated in October of 1944, along with his brother and father, Serbian partisans took over, instating rations on supplies, but not food. Lux's mother was forced to undergo manual labor for the partisans and his sister was sent to Russia as a forced laborer. The partisans frequently tortured, beat, and abused their German prisoners and local townspeople. Lux remained imprisoned in the town until December of 1946 when his mother paid a guide to help them escape and flee to Hungary. In the Soviet Zone of Occupation, he acquired a passport and was eventually permitted into the American Zone, settling into Passau where his uncle lived. He worked as a welder until he earned his Journeyman's Card and filed paperwork for emigration to the United States, leaving Germany in 1956.
Creator
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Lux, Melchior
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, Yugoslavian
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
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video/mp4
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/86f4d580e4e830c5b8822253f8faa4a2.mp4
5784e6915f881da3b343c938b8534862
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5a9ba0bc02c99fd8f7300cd838e14a83.pdf
f53e68999406fdc6a6a72086035d7ba8
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Robert Layton
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: We are talking today with Bob Layton of University Heights, Ohio. The
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project. Okay Bob, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where
and when were you born?
Veteran: I was born in Madison, Indiana on August 24th, 1946.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you grow up there or did you move around?
Veteran: Lived there until, I think, 12 years old. My father worked for a military—government
facility there at Jefferson Proving Ground. He was laid off in 1957. We had to move to Ohio. He
worked in Dayton, Ohio. I grew up in a small town west of Dayton, Ohio. Eaton, Ohio, a town of
5000 people.
Interviewer: Okay. And, did you finish high school there?
Veteran: Graduated high school in 1964, yes.
Interviewer: Okay. And what did you do after you finished high school?
Veteran: Well, my freshman year in fact, I went—freshman year of college, I spent at the
University of Arizona, where I thought I was going to be an architect but they quickly disabused
�me of that notion. And I didn’t see the sense in staying in Arizona, paying out of state tuition, so
I transferred to Ohio University.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and then was that a school that had a required ROTC program
in it?
Veteran: It did not. It did not. Interestingly, I think, the reason I ended up in ROTC was the
University of Arizona, which did require ROTC and so, in the fall of…what? Fall of ’66, I heard
at Ohio University—I was reading about this thing called Vietnam and I just had the sense that
another 2 or 3 years, it might still be happening and if I was going to go in the service, I might as
well go as an officer rather than wait to be drafted. So, had I gone to Ohio University as a
freshman, I am guessing I would not have gone into ROTC. But the fact that I went to Arizona,
they changed my life in that regard. (00:02:05)
Interviewer: Okay. And now, what did ROTC training actually consist of in those days?
Veteran: Oh crap—what do I remember…It was a lot of classroom work. Military histories and
that kind of stuff. There was drill once a week. There was a 6 or 8-week sort of basic training
between junior and senior years. And that was, you know, as much as I remember.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, what did they do for the basic training? Did you actually go to the
basic training base or did they just—
Veteran: Yeah, I went to a place called Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania, which I think was an old
World War 2 camp, really. And I, it was—I don’t remember… later in life I commanded a basic
training company for a while and in comparing the two, it was kind of basic training. But again,
there was an emphasis there on leadership skills, so each day, a new cadet was the acting platoon
leader or he was acting squad leader, something like that. So, we are moved in and out of
�leadership positions and graded on those days when we were in leadership positions. And it was
marksmanship…I guess the major thing I remember is the marksmanship training, the 82nd
Airborne were the cadre for that. A lot of them had either served in Vietnam already or had been
in the Caribbean, or the 82nd Airborne excursion down into…
Interviewer: Dominican Republic.
Veteran: Dominican Republic, yeah. So, you saw these crack troopers with their airborne wings
and CIB above it. Good-looking troops.
Interviewer: Okay. Was there much of an anti-war movement going on at Ohio U in those
days?
Veteran: Well, of course there was, yeah. Of course there was. Ohio U is a pretty liberal school. I
don’t think it was beyond the average. I mean, but there was a, you know, strong anti-war
movement and teach-ins and that sort of thing. And I remember Dean Rusk coming to speak on
campus and a huge walk-out was staged. That sort of thing. (00:04:26)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, how—did any of that kind of touch on you as an ROTC cadet? I
mean, did people treat you differently? Or…were you…did you just feel a little bit outside
of things?
Veteran: I don’t think—I mean, within my circle of friends, no.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And my circle of friends includes some anti-war people. A friend of mine became a
conscientious objector. But I—but that’s what a university is supposed to be: you have divergent
views and divergent interests and people and you mix together and try to—try to coexist with
�that. You know, if I get political, it’s what we have today: one seems to be on one side of the
fence or the other, nothing in the middle.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Yeah, I didn’t have—I didn’t have any trouble in that regard, being in the ROTC.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, when did you graduate from college?
Veteran: March, 1969.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you were in school and then in 1968—would summer of ’68 be when
you had your summer training then?
Veteran: Actually, I had mine in ’67.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, but you’re in school in ’68 so what did you—what went on on
your campus in ’68? Because you had various assassinations and all that kind of thing.
Veteran: I think—the assassination of King and then the assassination of Kennedy had profound
impact on the campus at Ohio University. I don’t recall classes being cancelled or anything but I
know that there were, you know, there were just gatherings and activities and…I mean, and
rightly so. Rightly so. I mean, that was also—I remember watching Johnson’s…Johnson’s
address to the nation when he said I will not run again. I mean there was a lot of activity, a lot of
political activity going on at that time. It was impossible to ignore it. Absolutely. (00:06:36)
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so now you get into ’69 and now you graduate and so now it’s
time for you to report for duty.
Veteran: Right.
�Interviewer: So, what happens next? You graduate from school, now what?
Veteran: I graduated and I had—I received a commission and orders at the same time. And two
weeks later, I reported to Fort Benning, Georgia for the infantry officer’s basic course.
Interviewer: Okay. And what does that consist of?
Veteran: Well, first let me note, a little historical note, when I reported to Fort Benning on the
appointed day, the guards at the gate told me that the post was closed for the day. You can come
back tomorrow. I had assumed Vietnam had surrendered because they knew I was on the way,
right? But it turned out, interestingly enough, my first day in the Army it was the official day of
mourning for Dwight Eisenhower, who had died just a few days previously. So, in fact, literally
my first day in the Army, I was sent home. But the next day, you know, the war continued. So,
the infantry officer basic course, again a lot of leadership skills and a lot of tactics, a lot of map
and compass land navigation, familiarization with a lot of different weapons systems, probably
classes on such things as logistics, military law, stuff like that which is—I have long since
forgotten. But it was—and it, and really, it was—for me it was the transition you know again,
from a fairly liberal campus to suddenly now we are in the Army fulltime and there’s no doubt,
you know, what’s ahead of me and so it was…There was a mind change going on there also, you
know, getting—getting geared up for what was going to be going on. That was just what I was
going through personally. Getting geared up for the fact we are in the Army and we are headed
for Vietnam. (00:08:43)
Interviewer: Okay. Is this where really sort of heavy-duty discipline sets in as opposed to
ROTC? Or had you learned the way the Army did things already?
�Veteran: Not totally. Not totally. There was…But you know, it was not, it was training but it was
not training in the sense of—it was called infantry officer basic course but it was not basic in the
training sense. We were officers so you know, we were treated with a certain amount of respect,
they say the old OCS candidates didn’t have. We’d have classes in what was called Building 4,
affectionately known as Bedroom 4. And during the breaks, the officers would go out and get a
cup of coffee. And while we were getting our coffee, we’d see the OCS candidates braced
against the wall—that was their break. So, you know, as an officer we—you know, we had—we
didn’t have the discipline those guys went through.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: At all.
Interviewer: Alright. So, how long did you spend in the basic course?
Veteran: I think it was 9 weeks.
Interviewer: Okay. And what did they do with you once you are through with that?
Veteran: Well, when I was there, I volunteered for jump school and ranger training. So, I
graduated from the basic course and I think I had a couple weeks of down time and then went to
jump school which was 3 weeks.
Interviewer: Was that at Fort Benning or…? (00:10:12)
Veteran: At Fort Benning, yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. Alright, now parachuting was kind of going out of vogue at that
point. I mean, I guess you did—I guess rangers still did it. Unless—
�Veteran: I think the Army always wanted it. Yes, it still was out of—certainly we did not have
airborne units jumping in Vietnam. I think for the Army though, I don’t think it would ever go
out of vogue because it’s sort of a confidence building thing and it sort of shows that you know,
here’s a guy that’s a hard charger. And so, I think, I—my personal belief is that the Army will
probably always have a parachute unit because they want that kind of personnel.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Personality. And for me it was, it was—I loved it. It was fun. It really was.
Interviewer: Alright. So, how did they work you up to jumping out of an airplane?
Veteran: I think the…I think the—I think the cadre jump school were the best psychiatrists or
psychologists in the world because they spent two weeks—first of all, there was two weeks of
intense training but it was two weeks of very purposeful training. There was no harassment for
the sake of harassment, because in the third week, you’re going to be 1,200 feet above the
ground jumping out of an airplane. So, there was no screwing around with you just to do that.
Everything was for a purpose. And if you’re not paying attention, they are on you right away
because, you know, there’s no fooling around here. And they were great at just building your
confidence and building your desire. I mean, by the time I got in the airplane to jump, literally I
would have pushed my mother out of the way to get out the door. I wanted to jump and I think—
I don’t think I was alone in that. They fire you up to go. And they are very good at it. And I
enjoyed going. I enjoyed doing the—I did not find jump school to be that difficult physically.
And I did enjoy jumping.
Interviewer: Yep. Okay. So, that’s sort of like 3 weeks. And now ranger school comes after
that but that’s a little bit different. (00:12:30)
�Veteran: Ranger school is hell. Yeah, I had, again I had another couple of weeks off, whatever.
And then I went through ranger class 70-2 in the year of 1970 which I think we started in
September of ’69. Ranger training was the best thing I ever did. It wasn’t by any means fun but it
was the best thing I ever did because of the training that I received while in ranger school.
They—it is…It is fully geared for small unit combat leaders. And that’s all you do for 9 weeks.
And there is harassment there and that’s purposeful. There’s harassment in the sense that when
you are in the field training, you get one meal, one C ration a day. And your day goes anywhere
from 18 to 19-20 hours. That will continue for 2-3 weeks sometimes. And the idea is really, it is
just to—to put you under pressure, to see how you react under pressure. As they would say, they
can’t shoot at you so the best thing they can do to find out what you’re made of is just not feed
you or not let you sleep, see how you deal with tension, and how you deal with stress. Can you
function? And it was constantly patrolling, constantly out in the field, map and compass. And so,
you learn to navigate over land which is something that came in very handy in Vietnam. And you
learn…You learn that you have a lot more in you than you would have ever thought. You know,
at the point you think you want to quit, no you got another three days in you easily. You don’t
know that, but they’ll get it out of you. And it was—it was absolutely the best training in the
world. And the—frankly, I knew officers who did not go to ranger school and I never understood
why they didn’t, because I would have—I would have felt…I did not think that the infantry
officer basic course, while on paper I graduated from that, qualified me to lead a platoon in
Vietnam. I didn’t think so. Okay? I felt that I needed everything I could get and I wanted that
ranger training. (00:15:03)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, what kind of terrain were you in for ranger training?
�Veteran: Depended—well, there are three phases when I went through. Well, there was a phase
at Fort Benning, Georgia. Camp Darby, where we did a lot of the preliminary—we did a lot of
PT in Darby. There was a lot of—every morning was an obstacle course through—where we had
a low crawl through freshly watered-down Georgia clay, which was just as slick as oil. And after
that, when you got enough of the stuff on your hands, then you start doing those ladders. And
you can’t hang onto them, right, and then you fall into the water and then you keep going. And
we had a lot of—we had the I guess what we would call the orient training courses where you
start out with a map and a compass and you have to find the stake in the woods 3000 meters that
way and then there would be instructions that say go find this other thing. So, we had the nav—
the land navigation courses. And you did that with your ranger buddy at night, which was an
interesting…interesting course. And there were other classes at Camp Darby. We were pulled
together one time administratively because of some order that was issued, some very high-level
command that was supposed to go to all of the officers in the Army and so they even broke us
out. I think it was the only break we had from ranger training where we actually, you know, not
just hard charging ahead. And I remember…Well, I’ll tell you. My ranger school started—it
started maybe 3 or 4 days after Armstrong landed on the moon, because I remember watching
the moon landing in my motel room. And when we had this get together for this Army whatever
sort of thing it was for all the officers, we got an update on what was going on with the guys
going back to the moon or not to... But we—so, Camp Darby was really a lot of almost
preliminary stuff. We went to Dahlonega, Georgia—northern Georgia for a lot of—we did
mountaineering there, a lot of repelling and that sort of stuff. And a lot of patrol. Just patrol,
patrol, patrol through northern Georgia. Up the hills, down the hills, along the ridgelines. And we
completed that. You come back to Fort Benning, you get about an 8-hour break and then we
�were down at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida for the jungle phase of ranger school. And again,
more patrols. More patrols. We did a riverine assault, I think they called it, where we actually
were loaded onto Navy landing craft and did an assault on the—to the beaches. And then one
day, we were called together. And they started calling out names. And if your name was called, it
turned out, you went over there, it turned out you didn’t pass. And those guys—those guys had
just gone through the 9 weeks of hell and they didn’t have the grades to get the ranger tab. And
they found out on the next to the last day they didn’t graduate from ranger school, which…just
one of the toughest cuts you ever see in your life. And the rest of us then had one more day of
ranger school and it was all what they called administrative. There was no patrolling for grades
anymore. And so, we were—we were getting ready to go back out and I was a cigarette smoker
at the time and I was out of smokes. And my ranger buddy—you go through ranger school with a
ranger buddy and the two of you are supposed to be closer than husband and wife for that 9-week
period. You each depend on the other to keep going. And I was out of cigarettes and I saw Joe
throwing a couple packs of cigarettes in his rucksack. And I said, “Joe, I am out of cigarettes. Let
me have a pack to get me through this.” And he said, “No, I need these.” And I said, “Joe, we
only got one more day. What’s this all about?” He says, “They’re lying to us, Bob. They’re not
going to let us out of here.” So, I think I finally got a couple of smokes from him. But I
remember that: “They’re lying to us.” (00:19:56)
Interviewer: Alright. Well, I take it in the end they were not lying to you?
Veteran: No, we graduated the next day. They brought us in, we had a graduation ceremony out
on some abandoned runway up at Eglin Air Force Base. And they came by with a safety pin and
ranger tab and put it on your shoulder. And then we had…We had like this picnic. Barbeque, all
that kind of stuff. Beer. And we spent the night at that, on that airstrip in those, you know,
�Quonset huts. And I remember, I don’t know, it was maybe 3 or 4 in the afternoon or whatever.
The sun is kind of starting to set. And I remember walking to this Quonset hut and you see the
sun filtering through those windows and you see the dust floating. You know what I am talking
about? And we are all so exhausted that literally you hit that bunk and you are asleep in no time.
And I would see guys, and it was almost like walking into a morgue because guys had gone and
you know, fallen asleep before I got there and they just however they hit, that’s how they lay.
You know? It was an eerie feeling, you know? And 5 seconds later, I was one of them, you
know? So, we spent the night then at Eglin and then the next day, they took us back to Fort
Benning. We processed out but we had to spend a second night at Fort Benning. And one of the
things we were told was that literally they wanted us to get two good nights of sleep before we
left the post because they didn’t want us driving down the road and falling asleep and killing
ourselves or someone. So, the second night at Fort Benning. I had some leave. I went home. And
then I was assigned. My assignment was Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. I went out there and go
there I guess in October of 1969. And I was assigned as a training officer for a basic training
company. And maybe three weeks after I was there, the company commander, who was a first
lieutenant, his tour was up. He was out of the Army and they had no officers. And so, as the
second lieutenant, I became the commanding officer of Echo company, 5th battalion through
training brigade. And I was the smartest company commander on the post because when they
said I was in command, I got the drill sergeants together and I said, “You guys know what you’re
doing. You’ve been doing it for a long time. Keep doing it and I will stay out of your way.” And
that made all the sense in the world to me and so that’s what I did for the next…I guess until the
end of January 1970, when I had to—I left there and had my orders to Vietnam. (00:23:04)
�Interviewer: Alright. And so now—now, do you get…Do they give you another leave? Or,
because—
Veteran: Yeah, I had 30 days leave.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Before going to Vietnam.
Interviewer: And then when they sent you to Vietnam, how did they get you to Vietnam?
Veteran: The Via Panama. I went to—I was assigned to the jungle operations school down
in…was it Fort Howard, I think? In Panama. Which was kind of nice because first of all, Fort
Leonard Wood in the winter was called Little Korea, and with reason. And I really think, I mean
after ranger school, there was nothing that I really learned in jungle ops. But I think—I really
think it might be just acclimation. But I got there and found maybe 10 or 12 guys that I had gone
through jump school and ranger school with and so we kind of partied it up for 2 weeks in
Panama and drank every night and got up the next morning and went through the training and
then drank again every night. We weren’t the most serious students at the time, I must admit. But
again, there was nothing new for us to learn down there and so…But it was good to see those
guys again. (00:24:12)
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: So, I went there for 2 weeks. Then to Travis Air Base in San Francisco and then to
Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay. And did they put you on a military aircraft or charter?
Veteran: American Airlines.
�Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Remember where you stopped on the way over?
Veteran: Hawaii.
Interviewer: Okay. And did you get off or…?
Veteran: Go surfing? No. We got off—while they refueled us—we got off the plane. I think
technically I could say I was—have been in Hawaii but I didn’t touch the ground I guess, just
standing on the tarmac for some air while they refueled.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Alright, and then where do you land in Vietnam?
Veteran: Tan Son Nhut.
Interviewer: Okay. And what’s you first impression of Vietnam when you get there?
Veteran: My first impression was…The door opened and I saw these guys behind a wall. They
are screaming and yelling because the bird I took in was the bird they were going to take out.
And they were very, very happy to see their freedom bird. I think…And I think to me there was,
again there was—getting off that plane, there was a reality that sets in because there’s no way out
of this now, until the end of your tour. You know? And there’s no dodging what’s going to be
coming next. So, there was a harsh—to me there was a harsh reality that okay, you’re here now.
You know? And all the games are over.
Interviewer: Okay. So, when did you actually arrive in Vietnam? (00:25:49)
Veteran: It was the end of March. I am not sure of the exact of the day. It was the end of March,
1970.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you have orders for a unit yet? Or were you going to go find
them?
�Veteran: No. No. I was—we were given…we were given 3 options or 3 choices. And then, of
course this being the Army, none guaranteed. And I was somewhat of a mercenary at heart, I
guess. My first choice was 173rd Airborne Brigade because they were still in jump status. And I
figured if I am going to be there, at least get the extra money. My second choice was 101st
Airborne Division. My third choice was the Cav. And I went to the 101st. (00:26:33)
Interviewer: Alight. And how long did it take to sort that out?
Veteran: I think just a day or two.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now where was the 101st at that time?
Veteran: North—I Corps.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I flew into Phu Bai.
Interviewer: Did they still have a base back a Bien Hoa that you were allowed to go
through or do you just go up to Phu Bai?
Veteran: The 101st? No, I went straight to Phu Bai.
Interviewer: Okay. And once you got there, did they give you any kind of orientation
before putting you through?
Veteran: Yeah, there was. I think it was 4 or 5 days, something like that. It was called Screaming
Eagle Replacement Training—SERTs.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�Veteran: And that was…I really don’t remember a whole lot about the actual training we had
there. I remember—I remember a conversation I had with a chopper pilot when I was going
through SERTs. And I, again I, you know…He probably sensed that there was a second
lieutenant that was shaky on his feet. This guy was coming back from his second tour. He was a
Huey pilot. And I remember we had a conversation one day and it was a really good
conversation. Very reassuring. He—because he told me, he said—he said, “I don’t think you can
get yourself into a situation” he said, “As long as we have communication back and forth, I don’t
think you can get yourself into a situation where we can’t work something out for you.” And I
remember…That’s probably the major thing I remember from SERTs, is just…You know, you
just sort of get a feeling of confidence again that you know, okay this is doable. You know, other
people have done it. It was—it was just a very reassuring conversation I remember having with
this guy. I don’t remember his name or anything but it was a good conversation. It helped me.
(00:28:12)
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, you go through that. Now, what unit are you assigned to?
Veteran: Bravo Company 2nd Battalion 501st infantry.
Interviewer: Alright. And where were they at the time you joined them?
Veteran: They were maybe a mile south of a firebase called Ripcord.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: A place we called Reup Hill because it was…it was a very active area. And a lot of
people were re-enlisting. I shouldn’t say a lot. There were people who were re-enlisting to get
out of the field because it was a very hot area. And there was a section there called Reup Hill that
�had been a source of contention, let’s just say, once or twice between the U.S. and the North
Vietnamese.
Interviewer: Alright. And so, how do they get you out to the unit?
Veteran: Chopper.
Interviewer: Okay. Do you remember anything about that particular ride?
Veteran: No. I remember I…I flew out with a light colonel, a lieutenant colonel. I am not—I
don’t remember who it was. We went to a firebase. I don’t know if it was Ripcord or not. And I
was there for just a few minutes and then there was another chopper that took me out. Out to
where Bravo Company was. I landed, introduced myself to the company commander. My
platoon sergeant came over with the squad leaders and met them. I remember one of my guys,
one of the guys in my platoon saying that they had—well, they had been waiting and they had
killed a trail watcher and he was over by the side of the LZ. And he had asked me if I wanted to
go see him? And I remember just declining because I remember just thinking to myself, well
there will probably be a few more of these in the future so I will just wait until it happens. But
that’s, you know. So, I was on the ground. You know? (00:30:10)
Interviewer: Alright. Now, were you—was the man you were replacing, was he still there?
Or…?
Veteran: No, he was now the company executive officer.
Interviewer: Okay. And so, was he back in the base camp then?
Veteran: He was back in Phu Bai, yep.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: I met him, in the course of things though, yes.
Interviewer: Alright. And who was your company commander?
Veteran: Full name Robert Stanton.
Interviewer: Okay. And were you with him long or did he rotate out?
Veteran: For about 3 months. 3 months, 4 months.
Interviewer: Alright. And I guess, what kind of…What did you do? You joined your
company, your platoon basically, what did you do or how did you approach them when you
joined them?
Veteran: Well, I joined the company. It was probably mid to late afternoon. We were getting
ready to leave the LZ. My first conversations with the 3 squad leaders, I said—introduced myself
to them, told them who I was. And I had had, when I was at Fort Leonard Wood, I’d had some
bad experiences with NCOs. And so, I…And I told these guys that the only thing I expected of
them really was be truthful with me. Because I had some bad experiences with NCOs before.
They were lying to me and bad things happened. And I said, “You know, I am not here to make a
career off your back or anything like that. But, you know, we just have to be truthful with one
another and we will start everything from there.” That was my first relationship with those guys.
Interviewer: Alright. And so now you head off the firebase. You go out and settle in for the
night—
Veteran: Oh, off the landing zone.
Interviewer: Okay, so it’s an LZ not a firebase?
Veteran: Yeah.
�Interviewer: Okay. And then you make a night—make a night decision somewhere?
(00:32:08)
Veteran: We set up—we had, when I had landed it was—the company, the whole company was
there. My platoon and the company CP, command post, moved off the landing zone in one
direction. 2nd and 3rd platoons went another direction. We set up a night position and the
commanding officer told me that I needed to send a squad back down the trail. We had moved on
to set up a night ambush position. And the platoon sergeant told me that this duty rotated among
the three squads and it was—the first squad was up for—I think it was the first squad. Frankly, I
think it was. But the squad was up to go out. And they went out. We set up the—you know, the
rest of us set up the DP. And the next morning, the squad was hit. And it was wiped out. 4 of
them were killed outright and the rest were wounded. And that was my first morning in the
field… (00:33:38)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: …In Vietnam.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you get the wounded men out alive? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: One of them, I didn’t know it at the time, one of them was a paraplegic. He came back
to his home in Cincinnati, Ohio. My home is a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio. And he died in the
mid ‘80s. And his family was able to…They got his—his death was attributed to Vietnam, to
what he had suffered in Vietnam, so. And I think it was 1990 I opened the Cleveland paper and I
�read this story about a guy from Cincinnati whose name had been added to the wall. And they
talked about the fact that he had been with the 101st Airborne Division, you know, the squad that
was ambushed in April 1970. And I thought he had to be one. He had to be, right? I didn’t know
it—I didn’t know any of them.
Interviewer: Right. (00:34:58)
Veteran: I clipped that article and kept it and when I went—2003, I went to a reunion, my first
reunion with Bravo company. And my platoon medic was there and I showed it to him. He said
“Yeah, that was your guy.” That was us—one of ours. And you know, while I know that’s just
the way the cookie crumbles, I guess, I wished to hell I had known he was there. I could have
gone to see him, you know? You know I mean, I don’t know, maybe he would have said “Screw
you, you got me all fired up, get out of my house.” Or maybe we…I don’t know. But I would
have—I certainly would have gone down to see him. But yeah, so we got—we got the wounded
out.
Interviewer: So, how many men were in your platoon?
Veteran: Each squad was probably about 5-6 people. I had 3 squads so after that first day, I never
got that squad back. I went through—I went through several months in Vietnam as a platoon
leader and basically leaded a reinforced squad…12, 14 men. That was—I never got that squad
back. (00:36:16)
Interviewer: So, you’re not taking very many replacements at that point?
Veteran: We were not. We were not. I left the platoon in October and the last operation I went
out on, somewhere the floodgates opened because my room—my last operation, my platoon size
mostly doubled. And it’s—I mean, when you’re that small, you’re very, very quiet. You’re
�very—you become a very cohesive unit. And suddenly, we are twice as big. And it sounded like
a circus going through the jungles, as far as I was concerned. I couldn’t believe the noise. But
yeah, we didn’t get any replacements all through the—from April through the end of September.
Maybe one or two but you know, nothing—again, I never got that squad back. I only had two
squads.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, was the rest of the company in similar shape? Or do they have
at least a little bit bigger platoons?
Veteran: They have bigger platoons but they weren’t getting replacements that much either.
Interviewer: Yeah. Alright. So, that’s sort of your welcome to life in the field at that point.
So, that’s March, or thereabouts, 1970?
Veteran: First of April.
Interviewer: First of April, okay. And by this time, they are trying to establish—I mean
Ripcord doesn’t get established on a regular basis for another week or so after that. And
then there is a base there and your battalion is kind of in and out in that general area. So,
now kind of take us through now the next couple of months. What’s going on? What are
you seeing?
Veteran: We went—I think we left the Ripcord area for a while and then came back. But when
we were in Ripcord, it was just a constant skirmishing. Not on a daily basis, but two or three
contacts a week where a trail watcher or someone, we would have contact with. Quick contact
with. I lost…I lost eight guys total over there. The fifth guy was probably two weeks after that
first squad was ambushed. We were moving along the trail and came on an LZ and it turns out
there was a trail watcher on the other side there. This by example. We start moving across and he
�opens up on us. You know, this was the sort of thing that would happen. And I lost a guy there. It
was just pretty constant skirmishing. Nothing—no major pitched battles. But just constantly
bumping heads with the NVA. All around that Ripcord area. I don’t think we were alone in that.
I think a lot of units were having the same experiences. Because they were patrolling heavily too.
They were, I think, they were trying to figure out how many of us were out there just as much as
we were trying to figure out how many of them were out there. (00:39:54)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, in these months, sort of kind of April/May/June, is your platoon
normally by itself or are you more commonly—
Veteran: For the most part, yes. We were. Yeah. I don’t think we had that many company-sized
operations at that time. And again, when you’re—when you have 12 or 14 people, it makes
you…You become a very cohesive unit. I wouldn’t—I wouldn’t recommend going to war with
12 or 14 people but if you do it, you quickly find out how tight you can be. (00:40:33)
Interviewer: Now, how long did they keep you out in the field?
Veteran: God, weeks. 3, 4, 5 weeks at a time. I remember once we didn’t get fresh uniforms. You
know? But you just, you know, you…You know, you don’t go back and sleep at night, you don’t
go back for a shower at night, you don’t get warm breakfast in the morning. It’s just—those
operations were anywhere from 4 to 6 weeks.
Interviewer: Okay. And what—did you have kind of the standard operating procedure if
you are moving from one area to another? What do you do or not do?
Veteran: Well, you start each day with a stand down. You know, early in the morning. And that
can go for, you know, 20 minutes—whatever it takes. What you’re looking for: you want the
first light to pass, so you don’t get hit at first light. So, you start with a stand down at first light.
�You end the day with a stand down at last light. And in between those two things that you always
do, there was no pattern because I didn’t want a pattern. Some days after first light, we’d eat.
Some days after first light, we were moving. I don’t ever want to get caught in a routine because
someone might pick up on my routine and do a swarm. Sometimes at night, you’re moving to an
NDP at 6 o’clock at night and you eat and you stay there tonight. Other nights, you are moving—
you’ll sit down and you’ll, you know, eat at 4, 5, 6 o’clock and maybe 10-15 minutes before last
light, you move to another position before you find an NDP. You never want to set a pattern. So,
when you asked me what went on—there is no pattern. You know? But you don’t…You just
don’t want to…But you don’t want to stay in one place too long. Other than obviously at night,
you’re going to stay there. But you’d hear about—I don’t know if it happened a lot with those
platoons, but you would hear about officers who would call in fake positions. And they would
stay in one spot because they thought that was safe. Well, I think that was the most dangerous
thing in the world you could do. There was no way in hell I would have ever done that to my
men. You know, you just—you always assume the worst. And that’s how you operate.
(00:43:14)
Interviewer: Okay. Would you move on trails or off them?
Veteran: Both. But many times with ridge land, there’s only one way to go and that is the trail.
You know? But there were times, actually, there were times when I would take my platoon off
the ridge line, down along the side and move through an area. You know, sometimes you would.
If you do that, you want to keep at least one guy or two on the top as long as the flank position.
But yeah actually, there were times when I’d move on the side of the hill.
Interviewer: And did you have rules about day and night noise discipline, light discipline,
that kind of thing?
�Veteran: Yeah. Yeah. Basically…I think the thing that—the noise that used to grate on me the
most was a zipper liner closing. You know? Because it’s so foreign to the jungle. You know, you
don’t want any noise that’s foreign to the jungle. I had guys that one time got a fucking radio.
That’s what it was, a fucking—well, he didn’t have it long. I mean, you don’t play a radio out in
the middle of the jungle in my platoon. You know? Who are you? You know? Yeah,
so…Smoking at night, I will admit to you that we did some of that. You know, you’re not
supposed to but we did some of that. But you’d, you know, get a little poncho over your head or
something like that to light the cigarette or whatever. But you know, not too much of that.
(00:44:39)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But every once in a while, you know, you just…
Interviewer: Alright. And how did you get your food? Fresh water? That kind of thing.
Veteran: Well, mostly helicopter supply. If we found streams, we obviously—we used them. But
most of our water and obviously the food came in every 4 days on log birds.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: And they were their own problem because that’s when you were exposed. Everyone in
the unit knew where you were because that—the chopper was there. And now, so again you
know, you got a 19-year old, 20-year old kid. I was the old guy; I was 24 years old. You got a
19-20-year old kid and he’s got a letter from home. What’s he going to do with it? He wants to
read it. What do I want to do? I want to get his ass moving out of this visibility where everyone
in the world knows where we are. And we will stop 10 minutes down the road, 15 minutes down
the—whatever, read it then. You know? It’s a matter of trying to…It was controlled paranoia, I
�think that’s what it is, okay? You just, you know you—you don’t relax. You don’t relax. And
honestly you know, if I couldn’t see behind the tree, my assumption was always there’s
something bad behind the tree. And that’s kind of what you do. (00:46:15)
Interviewer: Alright. Now did you have kind of sort of the same core group of guys in for
the next several months?
Veteran: Yeah kind of, in a way.
Interviewer: Or you’d maybe have one guy out and one guy in once in a while?
Veteran: Get once? I am sorry?
Interviewer: One guy out and one guy in? So, you’d stay about the same level in the
beginning?
Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, in terms of total numbers, yeah. Yeah, I had two squad leaders. You know,
that—I did, my two squad leaders were there for quite a while. I had a platoon sergeant when I
got there. He was what we called a shake and bake. Went through NCO school. Graduated at the
top of his class. He was an E-6, and I think only the top 1-2%, whatever it is in NCO school,
became an E-6. And he had actually been with the 5th Mech Division, which was north of us in I
Corps and they had been sent home and he didn’t have enough time in, so he was sent to the
101st. So, he was my first platoon sergeant. And he was—he was an excellent platoon sergeant.
And he left I guess in July. And then I got a—we called a hard stripe E-6, you know the kind that
come through the ranks. So, I was very, very fortunate I had two excellent platoon sergeants.
And that goes a long way to help run a platoon.
�Interviewer: Alright. Now, your battalion gets involved, or engaged, in some of the stuff
going on around Ripcord as things get more intense. So, I guess what kind of, just in
general, we are kind of following your time in Vietnam. So, you’re doing patrolling in and
out of the Ripcord area. Operations for a while. Ripcord itself really starts to heat up in
July, when the actual base comes under siege and so forth. What is your battalion doing
around that time? (00:48:03)
Veteran: Well, we were in the Ripcord area. We were probably, if I can get my directions correct
here, a little south of Ripcord, I guess. And we had some—we had some significant contacts
there. I remember at one point, there was this huge mountain called Coc Muen. I am trying to
remember my directions. I think it was south of Ripcord.
Interviewer: Yeah, it was south and west.
Veteran: South and west, yeah. I set up there. This was one time when we—we did stay in one
spot for two days. I was attached with—I was attached to the recon platoon, the Italian recon
platoon. And we were…We were up on Coc Muen for a couple of days. And we moved off and
we had a trail watcher following us. And one of my guys spotted him because recon platoon…I
think recon platoon was on the point. We were following them. But the decision was made that
we would get—that we’d go back and get this trail watcher and kill him. And they sent their—
the recon platoon had sent a sniper team back. And the guy was on a little—he was above us, a
little ridgeline. And I went back with them. And he missed the kill. He hit the guy in the hip. And
the problem was, you know again, I couldn’t see up there to know what was up there. Because
this guy was up there. He’s moaning, he was hit. And I couldn’t get a chopper out to recon that
area for us. And so, I don’t know is this guy by himself? Or does he have a squad up there that is
now using him as bait? Because my instinct is well, go get the guy. You know, grab a medic,
�let’s go. But I can’t risk this. And we stayed there for I don’t know how long, just listening to
this man die. And that was a bitter, bitter feeling. Just unable to do anything for this guy.
(00:51:02)
Interviewer: Wasn’t staying there also kind of dangerous? I mean, there had been a
gunshot. Or, was the sniper shot quiet?
Veteran: Well, it could have been dangerous. I wasn’t going to walk away from it, I guess. It
could have been but I just remember…So, we set up that night and my platoon would always put
out booby traps, mechanical ambushes, where we just left. And we had a joint CP with the recon
platoon leader and his CP and mine. And…And someone, somewhere along the way said he
thought he saw more trail watchers on the way we come in. And I remember the sniper came into
the CP and he wanted to go back out and try to get them this time. And this was getting toward
dusk. And he wanted to go through my position, my part of the perimeter. And I, you know, of
course I knew what was out there and I told him. I said, “Check with my people before you leave
this perimeter because we will have booby traps out there.” And I think it went in one ear and out
the other. And the next thing we heard were the claymores going off. And this sniper and his
spotter I found where they had just blown right through the perimeter, right into the claymores.
But by that time, you know, it was almost dark. The spotter was killed instantly. The sniper was
badly, badly wounded. And by the time we got the med evac out there, it was dark. We brought
in those strobe lights. And he died on the way in. The—our sniper. And I just…I mean, just a
tough day. So, now we have made contact with the NVA and you know, the battles there, but
other things happen, you know? And—I mean that movie that came out about a year or two ago
about the sniper in Iraq and—there’s no way in hell I am going to go see that movie. You know,
there just is no way in hell I am going to. I just—I am not going to deal with…I mean, right now
�is maybe the 4th or 5th time I have talked to people about this thing. It’s just a horrendous day.
You know? I mean, we let the guy up there die and then the guy who walks into a booby trap.
Just miserable, miserable day. So, in addition to again, sort of bumping heads with the NVA
around Ripcord, you know these other things are going on which are just difficult. (00:54:10)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Now, I think your battalion got involved in a couple places around Ripcord, I
think—
Veteran: We did, yeah. We went, on the 14th of July, we went after—we went after Hill 1000.
The 506th had tried to go up with I guess the…Get my map straight here. They tried to go up the
west side of Hill 1000 a couple weeks earlier and almost got to the top. But they couldn’t stay
there. We tried to go up the east side. We had gone back to resupply. This was after the incident
with the sniper. We went back to Phu Bai for about a day, resupplied, came back out, again
landed up on Coc Muen, then moved down. Moved down toward Hill 1000 and went after it the
second day. We moved out with recon platoon on the point, Bravo company 2nd in the
movement. And hit a bunker complex on Hill 1000. And it would be—I saw the NVA were
going up with RPGs into the trees so you get that spreading effect of the shrapnel. And pretty
much shoot up the recon platoon. There was a guy who, I didn’t know his name, I think I might
have known it at one time, lost his hand in that explosion down in there. And it was amazing—in
the middle of that fire fight, I think he was in shock. But I think he was also lucid enough to
know that he couldn’t stay there because he was going to bleed to death. And I remember
watching this guy: he got up and he walked out of that fire fight just as you’d walk to the grocery
�store to buy a loaf of bread. And he was holding…And I mean, rounds are going everywhere.
And he was—he was unscathed after losing his hand. He walked right out of the battle.
Damndest thing I have ever saw in my life. But we pulled back. We got recon out of there. We
pulled back, brought in artillery—I am sorry, brought in an air part with another—brought in the
fast movement, the 105s. And I think just bombed the hell out of those bunkers. I remember
literally the ground shaking. And the concussion was knocking branches off trees that were
flopping down on us. One of my guys actually got cut in the face with tree particles flying
around. And I—he was a good soldier. And he looked as white as those sheets. And I was trying
to buck him up and I remember I just told him, I said, “Listen, I’ll put you in for a purple heart.”
Better day, kind of trying to joke with him about it. So, the jets finished their work. And we went
after the bunkers again, this time Bravo was the pointer. The 2nd platoon was leading us, my
platoon was right behind Bravo. And they got about the same point recon did and once again, an
RPG initiated the contact. And they got the same thing, you know. They got many guys
wounded. A lot of people fired up there. And I took—I took my platoon down through to relieve
them and we managed to get them out of there. And we withdrew. I think we had—I think we
had over 20 guys wounded that day. But when I got back to the company position, I found that
this guy that had been—that had hit with that tree bark and I told him I’d give him a purple heart,
he was dead. He had apparently been helping evacuate some wounded guys onto med evacs and
apparently a stray round came out of nowhere and went right through him. And that was the last
guy I lost. He was the 8th that I lost. And we set up that night and I thought, well, we will go
again tomorrow. I really thought we would go again tomorrow. And I figured well okay, let’s
see…I think I know who is going to be on point tomorrow, right? And, we didn’t. We withdrew
from Hill 1000. And I—as I think about Ripcord and I think about that battle, I feel—then again,
�I am not a great military tactician by any stretch. But I think that really…That was a
foreshadowing of leaving Ripcord. I think…I think Hill 1000 was…I think we had to have Hill
1000 if we wanted to keep Ripcord. It was just—the NVA were just using it as a launching pad
for a lot of stuff onto Ripcord. And it was higher than Ripcord. And I think—I think in
retrospect, that was the foreshadowing of the withdrawment. This was the—this was the 14th and
we withdrew I think it was the 23rd of July. And yeah, we withdrew from that battle. (01:00:53)
Interviewer: But did you come back to the Ripcord area before the evacuation? Or were
you now just in other places?
Veteran: We went south and constructed a firebase called Brick. And really, that was…That was
sort of the—Ripcord was the last real significant contacts I had in Vietnam. The next several
months, every once in a while, something would happen but it was not heavy-duty.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so we have gotten to the point in your story where you talked
about having left the Ripcord area and you no longer had a lot of intense activity in your
remaining months in the field. But you had some larger comment about what you saw
going on there?
Veteran: Yeah. I think…This was an army that was withdrawing. The only war left in Vietnam
was I Corps. I am pretty sure of that. And the only unit fighting in I Corps was 101st airborne
division. And these guys knew it. I mean you know, by 19-20 years old, maybe they weren’t the
most sophisticated people in the world but they knew that everyone else was leaving and they
were left to fight a war that the country was withdrawing from. And it was not easy duty for
them. It was not…It was not—it was not a time filled with glory and all of those things. And as I
think back about it, I think one of the things that really impresses me is, and what I think is
�overlooked a lot, is the courage these guys had. You know, it’s easy to talk about the courage of
the Army of ’65, ’66, ’67. But by 1970, we tend to want to start thinking about the Army in
Vietnam with drug problems and race issues and lack of discipline and certainly that was there,
to one extent or another. It was not there in the field at Ripcord. It was not there when we went
into battle and there were guys who didn’t want to go but their buddies going and they’re going
to go with them. And there was courage. There was a courage that these guys exhibited that I
think is undervalued. And it needs to be acknowledged. And so, my point there is, you know this
was not—these guys did what they had to do and they tried to take care of themselves and each
other as best they could. And they—and it was a crappy mission. I think if Ripcord had been
1968, the 101st would have piled on every asset they had and would have borrowed assets if they
had needed them and we would have established Ripcord and did what we had to do. But it was
not 1968, it was 1970. The political situation was different. But the courage of these men was
still there. (01:04:23)
Interviewer: Yeah. One of the stereotypes is—and it’s something that some people in
higher levels of the command certainly thought that in 1971 or so, was that—and if the
Army couldn’t fight or was in crisis or whatever. But you still see here at this point, and
this is consistent with what I’ve gotten from an awful lot of people who were there, was that
the soldiers in the field would still fight and they could still be effective and part of it was
because they had to be to get out of there alive. But that could still function and that most
guys were still actually doing their jobs.
Veteran: Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Now, you have—now with officers, it’s a standard thing to rotate them in
different assignments. So, what happened to you and your assignment? I mean, did
�you…Now, you have mentioned something about when you were supposed to rotate out,
when you really did rotate out. Talk a little bit about that and how that worked.
Veteran: Yeah. Well, after Ripcord, after July, I had been there 4 months and 4 months seemed
to be the standard for an officer to serve in the field. And I recall we were—we were in Phu Bai
on a stand down and I was told…And jeez, I don’t know who could have—Sometime in the end
of July, my company commander Captain Stanton left and a Captain named Joe Swazzle—
Schwazzle or Swazzle? Replaced him. And I was—someone came to me and said that they were
looking for a rear job for me because I had completed my 4 months in the field. And again, there
was 4 months with no replacements coming through and I simply remember asking, “Who takes
the platoon?” Because if nothing else, I’d like to meet my replacement and sort of orient him or
whatever. And I was told they had no officers, that they would simply assign the task to the
platoon sergeant. He was certainly a very, very capable man but he was not being paid to be a
platoon leader. He was a platoon sergeant. Actually, he wasn’t even a platoon sergeant, he was
an E-6. Technically, he should have been a squad leader but the Vietnam of the day, he was a
platoon sergeant. And so, I simply, I said “You know, when you have a replacement, I will leave
the field. Otherwise, I will stay in my platoon.” And as it turns out, one of the things you, I—the
reason, or at least I did early on for me on my tours, you get there and they ask well, when do
you want to go on R and R and where you want to go and you get that paperwork out of the way.
And my R and R was scheduled for after 7 months and as it turns out, that’s when they got a
replacement platoon leader for me. So, I had the platoon for 7 months. Went on R and R to
Australia. Came back and found that I had been assigned to the battalion staff as the S-2, the
intelligence officer. And…And that was a strange job in a way. I remember at first, I didn’t—I
just, I couldn’t…I don’t think we generated that. I wasn’t interrogating prisoners or any of that
�kind of stuff. It was just—my job…I don’t know. I don’t know that I really did it particularly
well because I didn’t understand what they wanted of me. And no one was very forthcoming
with what I should have been doing. And I have, you know, when officers would come—the
brigade commander or the assistant division commander or division commander would come in,
and one of them—at least one of them showed up every day for briefing because the world was
on forward firebase. And so, we’d have a briefing for them and it would always start with the S-2
in terms of talking about any activity that happened in the last day or two, contacts or this that,
what are the disposition of the units. And then the operations officer, the S-3, would talk about
what are plans for the future and then the battalion commander would sort of wrap things up and
whatever discussion ensued took place. And there was a young secretary and I was always
quietly off to the side. But I will say that I have—while I think I did my job as a platoon leader
as best I could, I mean there are things I certainly would change, but I just—I never felt that I did
a great job as the S-2 because I never fully understood what I should have been doing. And I will
say there have been times when I look back on that and I wonder about it. You know, that’s an
area where I really should have tried to improve myself but I am not sure what I would have
done. (01:09:29)
Interviewer: You weren’t getting guidance from the battalion commander or XO or
anybody else?
Veteran: No. No, or even brigade S-2. You know? And I tried to reach out to him a couple times.
I mean, no one said you are doing anything wrong. You know, no one said, you know, “Jeez,
you’re the crappiest S-2 I’ve ever seen in my life.” But it just seemed to me that, you know, I
should be—there should be more that I was doing. I don’t know. I did in that period…Probably
in March of ’71…No later than March ’70. We had a combined operation with the 1st ARVN
�division. And I was assigned to the 1st ARVN as a liaison officer with the battalion, which I
found an interesting couple weeks in the field with the ARVN. I mean, they operate in totally
different ways than we did. You know, sit out and build fires at night and each officer had his
own little bat boy who would hang—strong his hammock for him and everything. It was going to
war the riviera style, if you will. So, I did do that but the…Yeah, the stint as the…As the
battalion intelligence officer—I just never really felt that I got a good handle on that. (01:11:00)
Interviewer: Okay. I want to jump back for a minute to the R and R in Australia. What
was it like to go to Australia after having been in Vietnam all that time?
Veteran: I had a meltdown. I learned…Which, years later in my life, I heard the term “survivor’s
guilt” and immediately I understood it. I mean you know, I got to sit in the—you know, the first
couple days I did what any G.I. does on R and R, right? You know, find some booze, find a
woman. And about the 3rd day, I just had this horrendous, horrendous guilt feeling crashing down
on me because here I was in a bar, drinking and having fun and you know, with women, and my
platoon was back there in the monsoon now. You know, it was October, it was monsoon month.
And it’s cold and it’s wet and it’s, you know…And I literally—literally drank the last half of my
R and R. And that’s all I did. Either in my room or there was a bar on the ground floor of the
hotel and I would just go there and…because I…And I knew, you know, I knew I was going to
go back to Vietnam and get killed because I had abandoned my platoon, you know? Deserters
get killed there. And I must have heard…I must have heard on the jukebox in that bar “The
Boxer.” Simon and Garfunkel. There was someone in that bar that played that song about 1000
times a day. I mean I just—I remember drinking, being drunk as hell, and hearing “The Boxer.”
And that was my last couple days of my R and R. I just—I couldn’t deal with, you know, I just
really…So, my R and R was not…a great deal. (01:13:13)
�Interviewer: Did you have any impression of the Australians or how they treated the
Americans there?
Veteran: The 2—my first couple of days there, yeah, they were great to us. Which I will say
really surprised me because I thought well, God by this time, they are going to be as sick of G.I.s
as any Army town around the United States, you know? But they were very, very friendly as far
as I can remember.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But I just couldn’t handle it.
Interviewer: So, was it almost a relief to go back to Vietnam at that point?
Veteran: Except I really thought I was going to get killed. So, I am not sure if it was a relief or
not. I don’t know what it was. I just know that it was a horrible time.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, were you still there when the South Vietnamese conducted their
operation in the Laos?
Veteran: The Lam Son 719.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: That was—I remember I was leaving as that was starting. (01:14:09)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Bravo company had a big part in that. It was the 2501 rather that had a big part in that,
because apparently, we provided a lot of the security up to the border. And I would think…I
�would think that the Bravo S-2 probably had a lot to do at that point, you know? But it wasn’t
me. You know?
Interviewer: Alright, so you’re on your way out?
Veteran: I was on my way out, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, what—as you…Now, how did they get you out of Vietnam? Or,
what is the process? Your year runs out, do you just wait for orders? Or…?
Veteran: Well, actually what happened was yeah, I—they finally—I was sent back to Phu Bai to
process out. And everyone knows his deros date—the day I am going to leave. And I didn’t get
any orders. And I wouldn’t know the day and then no orders. And finally, I went to the battalion
and someone says, “You’re not supposed to leave for 2 weeks” and “because you got here March
of…” whatever, you know. And I said, “Yeah, but I went to Panama and that counts as 2 weeks
overseas duty.” “Oh really? Don’t worry sir, we will have orders for you this afternoon.” And
they did. You know, they did come up. But if I hadn’t walked in there, they didn’t realize that I
had 2 weeks in Panama first and that was supposed to count as part of the overseas duty.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So yeah, so that’s—you know, I sort of got myself out of it, in a sense. (01:15:33)
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now—
Veteran: Went to Da Nang and flew to Fort Washing—Fort Lewis, Washington.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you still have time left to serve on your enlistment or were you
done?
Veteran: I was done.
�Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: ROTC was 2 years active duty commitment and…
Interviewer: I guess you had trained long enough before you got to Vietnam at that…
Veteran: Yeah, that and the time at Fort Leonard Wood. My active duty was—on my DD214, it
was a year and 11 months and like 15 days or something. I got 2 weeks of vacation pay for…so I
got that.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did the Army make any effort to encourage you to stay in?
(01:16:11)
Veteran: Yeah. They—I was informally…Officers in Vietnam—my, probably the one that
impressed me the most was my company first sergeant, wanted me to stay in. And I think any
time an NCO says to a lieutenant…You know, you give that consideration. I mean, you know,
because I respected the hell out of him and the fact that he thought I should stay in the Army
meant a lot to me. My last company commander wanted me to. And there were a couple other
guys. I had a long talk with an officer—well, a long talk? I had a talk with him. He was a West
Pointer. I can’t remember his name. he had been with a mech unit somewhere in the south and
they went home and he came up to 101st. And I remember I had a discussion with him one time.
Because he was in for the long haul. He wanted a career in the Army and he was the guy that
thought I should stay in. And I—and I said, “Well, why do this?” Because the Army was a mess
then. I mean it was, you know, it was getting to be a mess. And he—and I was so impressed with
his answer. He told me, he said, “Look,” he said “that’s—anyone can be an officer when the
going is easy.” He said, “Now is when the Army needs us.” You know? And I was impressed
with his, you know, he was going to stay in. You know? I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t, it wasn’t in
�me but I admired him because he was, you know. He knew that it was going to be tough. He
knew that it was a bad Army at that time but he also knew that the bad Army needed good
officers and he was going to—he was going to ride it out. And I admired that in him but I—you
know, it just wasn’t in me to be a career officer. (01:18:06)
Interviewer: So, what had you seen at that point that led you to think it was a bad Army?
Veteran: Well, I—because of the stuff that was going on in the rear, with the drug issues and that
kind of stuff, the racial issues. I wasn’t in the rear that much, but I knew of it.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And I knew those problems were there. And it was also an Army that was—that you
know, that the country didn’t give a damn about at that point either. There was—I don’t think
there was anything easy about the Army in the ‘70s.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You know? And…But, you know, this guy was—he was sticking it out. I think, you
know, people like that deserve a lot of credit.
Interviewer: Alright, so you come back now. What do you do once you get out?
Veteran: Initially, I had another…I had another one of those…I was released in Fort Lewis. And
you know, there must have been a group of 20 or so of us. And we were taken to a bus station on
post and there was a ticket booth to Seattle/Tacoma international and there was a ticket booth to
the city of Seattle. And there was this mad dash for the airport and I remember standing there
and looking at the two of them and I realized I couldn’t go home. I wasn’t ready to. You know? I
needed to process a lot of this stuff, so I went to Seattle. I got a room there at a YMCA. It had a
�bed and a lavatory and a layout 2-4 to a room. And all the showers and the toilets down the hall.
And I stayed in Seattle for about a week. And I just walked the streets. Get up in the morning, go
out and get some coffee, read the newspaper, walks. Just to get it back. You know? I mean you
think about it: they—you know, even the guy who’s drafted and gets some basic AIT, he’s
trained to go. You get nothing to come back. You know? And I think that, you know. And that’s
one of the feelings I look back on, in all my military time, I think that is one of the failings of the
Army. You know, I was in an airplane for 12 hours or so. We didn’t need 12 hours of orientation
to come back but it could have been something, you know? I knew if I went home, I wouldn’t be
able to handle it right away. You know, my mom would be, “Oh, good to see you” and letting
the family know and all that. Not that I didn’t want to see them, I just wasn’t ready. Not yet. I
remember walking to a little mom and pop place one night, you know the linoleum floor type
place, for dinner. And I was sitting at the table and there’s a couple over there and they get up to
leave and I remember the guy reaches in his pocket and puts—leaves change on the table and
walks away. And I am not kidding you one second, it took me 2 or 3 minutes to remember tip. I
couldn’t remember. Why the hell is this guy walking away leaving money? You know I—and
finally, I got it back. So, I…You know, I—that was nothing that was planned. It’s just when I hit
that spot, you know, this way or that way, I just—something in my gut just said you don’t go
home right now. You know, you got to sort this out. So, then I went home. And I was still, you
know, trying to adjust to the world, I guess. I was in the states for 3 months and I packed a
rucksack and went to Europe. And I spent 7 months hitchhiking through Europe. Just, again,
processing. Processing, processing. Came back from Europe. One of the things that had
happened back in the late ‘60s at Ohio University, I had a degree in Business Administration but
I knew I really didn’t want to—I wasn’t cut out for the corporate world. And I think a lot of that
�social upheaval at that time in the ‘60s…I got really interested in that: what’s going on there,
how does you get—how does the nation deal with it, what office shoulders it. It led me to a
career in urban planning and so I came back—after I came back from Europe, I went to the
University of Akron and got a degree in Urban Planning. And went to work for a 5-county
regional transportation planning organization in the Cleveland area. And my—I think the thing
that mostly interested me in business I know, in the business curriculum, was economics. The
thing that interested me a lot in going through the planning programs was urban economics. So, I
gravitated into a lot of work in urban economics. I ended up getting a second Master’s degree in
Econ, and I worked—I guess I worked 32 years there in the field of urban economics. A lot of
analysis, a lot of demographic work also. Which I found very—I enjoyed. I really did. It was
very, very interesting to me. I never had the sense…I never went to work a day in my life. I was
never got up and said, “Damn,” you know, “I got to…” I enjoyed it. You know? And I think I
was extremely fortunate in that regard. (01:23:27)
Interviewer: Alright. Now, to look back at the time that you spent in the Army, how do you
think that affected you overall? Positive? Negatively?
Veteran: Well, I think there’s no question it was a positive. I mean, I am sure there was some
negatives here and there. I think…I think people—we should serve our country. First of all, just
flat ass, we should serve our country. I think—and again, in a sense, I served my country in
Vietnam. I feel I served my country in a career in public planning. I am now retired. I serve my
country 2 days a week with Habitat for Humanity, building houses for people. I don’t see
anything wrong with a life spent like that. I have nothing against, you know, the guy that took
the career in finance and went to work for Merrill Lynch and made his billions. That’s part of
this also, you know. But this was my way. I think…I think had I—well, I never would have
�avoided the service, I never would have gone to Canada. I know that. But let’s say I had a bum
knee from football or something like that—was medically ineligible for service. I think that
would have bothered me a lot. My father served in World War 2. All of my uncles served in
World War 2. I sort of—and frankly, had there not been a war, I would have been in the Army. I
mean, I would have gone in the military. Because that—I sort of…I mean, we didn’t, you know.
There wasn’t a big flag waving at home or anything like that but I knew they were all there. And
I would have been in the military, war or not. So, I look back on—and I look back with pride on
my military time. I do.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, it makes for a good story so thank you very much for taking the
time to share it today.
Veteran: Thank you. (01:25:35)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_LaytonR2159V
Title
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Layton, Robert (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Date
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2017-10-03
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Layton was born in Madison, Indiana on August 24th, 1946 and graduated high school in 1964. He briefly attendd the Univeristy of Arizona before transferring to to Ohio University where he participated in the ROTC program in 1966. Layton underwent Basic Training at Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania, in 1967, and graduated college in 1969. He then attended his infantry officer's traiing course at Fort Benning, Georgia, and completed both jump school and ranger training. His first assignment as an officer was to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, in 1969 before he was deployed to Vietnam with the B Company, 2nd Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. His unit articipated in combat at Firebase Ripcord as well as Hill 1000 before Layton was reassigned as an S-2 Intelligence Officer. After two years of deployment, he left the service and completed his Master's degree in Urban Planning and, later, in Economics.
Creator
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Layton, Robert Wayne
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f434e7d5d514753cb2c0731c7e1fed99.mp4
cda1ac3fdf8c207719926c2efaa20d05
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1cbbe08e56257676fcb2bfe6c06f5687.pdf
71392e06cbc6493cffd4dc86a438095f
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Interview length: 1:53:02
James: We're talking today with Kent Laudeman of Niles Michigan. The interviewer is James
Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. But if you can start us off
with some background on yourself, and to begin with where and when were you born.
Kent: I was born in 1943 in Bremen Indiana, it's about 25 miles south of South Bend.
James: Okay, and did you grow up there?
Kent: I grew up there until I went to college and then kind of left that particular area to Western
Michigan University.
James: Okay, what did your family do for a living when you were growing up there?
Kent: My dad was a farmer and I grew up on a farm, and my mother did some office work for
Monsanto .
James: Okay alright, and when did you finish high school?
Kent: In 1961?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Okay and then you went to Western Michigan University from there?
Kent: I went to Indiana Central College for two years and then transferred it up to Western
Michigan University and was there for a total of seven years. I avoided the draft for a long long
time.
James: It was that, that was the year you could still go with graduate school to keep you out?
Kent: It was 65 I mean I was I was doing a college deferment from 61 to 65.
James: Mm-hmm.
Kent: And then 65 to 68 three years of graduate work and continued that deferment.
James: Alright.
Kent: Till Uncle Sam caught on.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: I guess my impression was that in a lot of cases the Graduate School deferment had
already gone away, or did you start early enough that?
[0:00 - 1:35]
Kent: Well the draft ended in 75 so I was still 66, 67, 68.
James: Yeah, but I think and I think and that my impression wasn't that figure yet that the
graduate school deferment had already gone away. You couldn't just hide in graduate school
necessarily.
Kent: No, I could until they caught up with me in 68 and didn't let me defer any more because I
wasn't married. I wasn't working at an okay situation.
James: So you managed to kind of get there under the radar?
Kent: Right.
James: Okay, so what were you studying in graduate school?
Kent: Undergraduate work was elementary education because I thought I wanted to be a
teacher and a principal, and then I got into counseling and Student Personnel Services.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Alright so what kind of impression or understandings did you have of the Vietnam War
while you were in college?
Kent: Well interesting that's probably why I pursued the deferment. Nobody in my family had
ever been in the service so I had no experience to fall back on and that wasn't really a pleasant
time with Kent State Jackson State and so forth is the culture was such that you were kind of for
or against it okay.
James: Alright yeah so it's all sort of kind of going on.
Kent: Yeah.
James: Alright so but then you eventually you get a notice.
Kent: I was drafted so I changed from one induction Center which was Indiana up to Michigan.
Deferred for a little bit more, got a delayed entry plan because I was writing a thesis for a
specialist degree at that particular time. That bought me another three months it got me into late
August and September.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: But of what year?
Kent: Of 1968.
James: Okay alright, and so at this point are you going in as enlisted?
[1:34 - 3:27]
Kent: So I was drafted as enlisted. I had checked and thought maybe I could get into Social
Work or something like that with the counseling background, but the recruiters said no we really
don't need that kind of person. So, I was drafted got in did basic and advanced training at Fort
Dix New Jersey.
James: Okay.
Kent: 11 Bravo infantry.
James: Okay so you said go Fort Dix for basic what was that like, but what happened there.
Kent: Well I was lucky enough to be put in a company and a platoon that had mostly college
students in it.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: mm-hmm
Kent: Which was just exceptional. I mean they kind of said we were all loafing, but when it came
time to take the APFT the physical fitness test we always came through. We we knew when we
had to show up as were about it. Otherwise okay, we were playing the game and going through
all of the drill and and everything like that and being a good soldier. Okay but but not being
overly good as far as a soldier is concerned.
James: Okay what impression did you have of the drill instructors? Or did you know anything
about what their backgrounds were?
Kent: Smoky hats were pretty much pushers. NCO’s, good physical shape, gun ho. I mean what
we pretty much experienced I think given my fireman background discipline hard work and so
forth. It didn't hit me in terms of the discipline and regimentation like it did some college
graduates.
James: Okay so you adapted to army life relatively easy.
Kent: Right.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Okay now did some of the other guys you were with have a lot more trouble?
Kent: Oh yes.
James: What kinds of things went on with them?
[3:28 - 5:15]
Kent: Some of it was just the pressure and the stress of the constant pushing encouragement to
do better, excel be all you can be when they kind of knew what they could be. And because they
were drafted didn't want to be maybe and we're just there because they were drafted. Okay and
pushing through the two years or the three years whatever they had been required to sign up
for.
James: But were they basically accepting of their fate on some level and “Okay I'm-”
Kent: Pretty much so.
James: “-gonna get through it.”
Kent: Pretty much so yes.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Alright how long did basic last?
Kent: Ooh... Eight weeks and then another eight weeks for advanced infantry training.
James: Okay now to what extent was the advanced training geared toward Vietnam?
Kent: It's always lingering in the back of your mind. I mean this is the height from 65 to 75 so 68
late 68 69 that was there the NCOs had pushed us said, “you know if you don't do well you're
gonna probably end up there.” So you know they used it in a motivating kind of way but really
none of the training for basic RIT other was standard training. I mean it was not in preparation
for Vietnam it was standard training.
James: Alright so you could go anywhere essentially?
Kent: Go anywhere.
James: Okay that was another eight weeks?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: So I finished the AIT and then you get sent on for MOS training in a particular school, they
sent me to Fort Gordon, Georgia to be an auto den person, which is typist and message
trafficking and so forth. And so I went down there and that happened to be also where social
workers in the army went. There were gonna be officers so I scampered over there then gently
inquired and said, “You know what's the chances of getting transferred out of auto den training
to being in Social Work given my particular background,” and nobody would listen to me, but in
basic I put all the paperwork in for a correct Commission.
James: Okay.
[5:16 - 7:34]
Kent: And that came through once I got I finished auto den training.
James: So what did auto den training consist of.
Kent: Basically teletype that kind of messaging. Okay ticker tape cards if you think about what
we were doing in terms of Technology and communication at that particular time.
James: Computer cards?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Computer cards. So you know sometimes maybe when you went through registration you
got a stack of cards, well that's similar to what was happening as far as auto den training was
concerned.
James: Okay all right, but then okay so at this point it's possible then for someone like yourself
who's got a college degree or some kind of specialized background to receive a direct
Commission to do for certain kinds of jobs?
Kent: I put everything in okay, now whether I would get it or not, I don't know. My wife was
expecting our first son at that time she was back in Bremen with my parents. So, after I finished
auto den school I was put into a holding company and was put in charge of a platoon, as far as
that company is concerned, so was just kind of doing general-
James: Right.
Kent: -NCO specialists kinds of duties and so forth.
James: Alright, but then the Commission actually does come through.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: So, at the end of June I was commissioned a second lieutenant in the adjutant-general
corps.
James: Alright and so now what happens to you?
Kent: And now I got sent to Fort Ben Harrison for a basic officer training, and went through that
program by that time I had almost a year of enlisted training.
James: Mm-hmm
Kent: So I was in pretty good shape for that physically speaking. Mentally speaking training as
far as first aid CPR all of that kind of good stuff-
James: Okay.
[7:35 - 9:34]
Kent: -that you generally get in officer basic school.
James: Okay I guess one usually thinks of Officer Basic as being in places like Fort Benning
and and so forth. Harrison's like a finance Institute.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: So the adjutant general school is there and finance was there.
James: Okay. So, do you think you've got a somewhat less physically intense officer training
than you would get if you were doing infantry or anything?
Kent: Why... I think it was probably more akin to my background and therefore felt more
comfortable with it. I don't- I'm not really a combat person as we'll see and got into Civil Affairs.
So to me, it was like going back to school yeah I mean-
James: Great.
Kent: -I enjoyed it. You were in the barracks, you had a room by yourself, you were treated like
a junior officer, I enjoyed it. I could have stayed there for the same time I spent in college.
James: Alright, and what were you actually learning there.
Kent: Doing different kinds of things that person. Pretty much adjutant-general kind of stuff
which would be paperwork, which would be awards, which would be personnel actions, things of
that nature from an administrative perspective. So that was very comfortable
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Okay so this is specifically officer training for adjutants.
Kent: You still had weapons qualification and some general training-
James: Mm-hmm
Kent: -but that was just kind of redundant and repetitive of what I had earlier as an enlisted
person.
James: Right. Okay, and how long were you there.
Kent: Ooh... Probably about 12 weeks, and from there I went to be a second lieutenant at the
Athey station in Little Rock Arkansas, and that's the Armed Forces entrance and induction
station.
James: Okay.
[9:35 - 11:16]
Kent: So now I got to see where I came through in Detroit and what got me there. And I was the
psychological examiner at the Athey station in Little Rock Arkansas.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Alright so what does that job actually consist of?
Kent: So anybody that was being drafted or was being that that was volunteering came through
the Armed Forces entrance and examination station. And part of that was the ASFA, the battery
in terms of aptitude and maybe the identification of what was going to be best for you in a draft
kind of way. Or, if you were enlisted you were kind of talked into a particular MOS, so we did the
aptitude part of that, and if somebody was struggling with that then I had to do a reading test
and interview and determine whether the person was fit or not for it as far as being drafted or
volunteering for the service.
James: Alright and how long were you there?
Kent: I was there almost a year?
James: Okay, now did you like that job or…?
Kent: I did like that job, and we were the little of the Little Rock Air Force Station. Which was
outside of town. I ran and I knew the dictionary of Occupational titles as far as titles were
concerned. But, one of the fellows that I didn't approve for being a volunteer was somebody that
came out of the Ozarks and could not read and desperately wanted to be in. So, we went
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
through that his occupation was really chicken catcher. So he at night would go in and take the
chickens off the roost put him into the cage and some of those 18 wheelers you saw with
multiple chicken cages was indeed he was doing that, that was in the dictionary of Occupational
titles. And I said “I just can't let you join the service because your lack of reading skills and what
the service was looking for and so forth,’ and at that time there was a marine captain who had
recruited this particular individual and he locked my heels at the door one day and said, “You
know how dare you lieutenant not accept my recruit,” and I stood by it I still said, “You know this
was not doing the individual any good and was not gonna do this service any good and so
forth.” That led to when I left my first Arcom medal at that particular place so I had a good group
of couple college students who were working with me as far as the testing is concerned. The
interviewing is concerned, and everything like that. I enjoyed it because it kind of tied in some of
my counseling my assessment kind of things that I had learned while I was in graduate school
and so forth I would have stayed there.
James: Alright so what did you get to do next.
Kent: Well then I got sent to Vietnam okay, and therefore I went down to Fort Polk for RVN
training for about a week.
[11:17 - 14:27]
[Unintelligible]
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Excuse me?
James: What did that consist of?
Kent: Well that consisted of more what you could expect to find as far as being in Vietnam and
that would be things like booby traps, watching for booby traps, living in a jungle kind of
situation, and so forth. What's a triple canopy like it's also Louisiana probably hot humid fit that
particular scenario best and that's where the RVN training was at.
James: Did they try to teach you anything about the culture the place or the people or
anything and..
Kent: They don't remember anything about culture to tell you the truth.
James: Because they trained the combat infantry or a lot of it geared toward that.
Kent: So that was definitely military oriented squad work self-defense, Unit defense, unit
aggression, and so forth. Okay, it's strictly military in this case.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Did they march you out into a swamp or field someplace?
Kent: You know we were waiver lieutenants going through that particular training so yeah, we
went out as a unit. But, nothing like basic training and AIT for another person so forth.
James: Alright, now is it on to Vietnam from there?
Kent: On to Vietnam for a year. Arrived in August and left in June arrived in August of 70 and
left in June of 71.
James: Okay, how did they get them out to Vietnam?
Kent: Well you know, I was an individual replacement so I didn't go as a part of the unit.
James: Right.
Kent: …. That’s a good question, I don't remember all together a little bit... a long flight.
James: Most people had to report to someplace on the West coast some, one Depot or another.
[14:28 - 16:04]
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: I went out of the East Coast came into Tan Son Nhut and Long Binh. Long Binh was the
fabricated metal roof shelters that everybody came in to etc. and went through a brief orientation
there, but no training. And then went from there to the 1st Signal Brigade which was actually
located in the Saigon itself.
James: So actually in the city as opposed to...
Kent: In the city.
James: Alright, what kind of facility or compounded did you have?
Kent: It was in a compound, walled compound, right in the middle of things. We did have a high
walled fence that went around it and a set of buildings inside. We ate our meals outside,
probably about 150 200 yards, because it served not only that compound but a couple other
compounds in that area. I remember it being on a major roadway between Tan Son Nhut and
Cholon PX. Why do I remember that? Because it went by the fish market, okay, which had that
very distinct kind of smell to it that I'll remember to this day.
James: And Cholon it's a neighborhood in Saigon proper?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: It it's as you go towards downtown Saigon, right downtown Saigon okay.
James: Alright now what did your duties consist of there?
Kent: Adjutant, so basically I was doing awards, assignments, the support. I was in charge of
the hiring of our Vietnamese that worked within the compound papasans mamasans and so
forth.
James: Alright, now what did they give you. Any kind of orientation or training for that, or did
they just say here you go.
Kent: I did have a major that I reported to so he was my training and kind of a mentor in this
case. Commander was a colonel 1st Signal Brigade in this case had the billboard antennas
scattered throughout the country, and did the long haul communication from country outside of
country or outside of country inside.
James: Now, did you have experience enlisted men working under you who knew what they
were doing?
[16:05 - 18:31]
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: I had enlisted in the assignment section and in the awards section on the same building
and I had a Chief Warrant Officer 3 that was in the personnel assignment that reported to me
and the major at the same time.
James: Alright, and what kind of living quarters did you have?
Kent: We lived in what I call it not a barracks. It was a two-story building standard kind of what
you might find in the Saigon area. I remember the first couple of nights there they gave me a
mosquito netting which was terribly hot. And then sometime later I got an individual room that
had an overhead fan and while that was great because it kept the mosquitoes off you and gave
a little bit of air movement so my quarters were pretty good. There was an officer's room where
you could go in the evening and there was an NCO club we didn't go to but the NCOs could go
to. Wasn't a whole lot to do within the compound other than work. I mean at best you maybe
had a half day off during the week to get your laundry done or something of that nature. The
best trips were outside of their to Tan Son Nhut for a breakfast on a Sunday morning or
something like that and probably had the best Western omelet that I could think of at an Air
Force mess.
James: Alright, and would you go into Saigon proper much?.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: I had to go to the Cholon PX to pick up the piastre to pay for the mamasan's the papasans
and so forth. So once a week I was going down there.
James: Where were you allowed or able to go to restaurants or other things like that?
Kent: I did some of that I signed up for a Vietnamese class but I didn't have the time to pursue it
beyond that picked up a few things I had to go along with that and outside the compound yeah
there were some restaurants where you could get a Vietnamese kind of meal and go from there
I did make some trip into VungTau and other areas because we had small detachments that
supported the billboards that were located in the different provinces but I didn't get up to I Corps
didn't get up to second Corps did get down to the Delta a couple times.
James: okay and when you did travel around how did you travel.
Kent: Basically by Jeep except I made a pay run was in a lush two seater low flying craft we
skimmed over the treetops etc.
James: Alright did you have a sense that it was relatively safe to drive around the areas that you
were in.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
[18:32 - 21:23]
Kent: Pretty safe because I was always out during the daytime never out during the nighttime
we could hear the bombs being dropped as far as the b-52s were concerned I mean yeah the
windows would rattle a little bit etc. but I mean other than somebody's shooting over the wall or
through the razor wire felt pretty secure in terms of where we're at so I was very fortunate.
James: Okay now did you have were there rules about sort of where you could go and not go in
Saigon or what kinds of things you could do or not do?
Kent: Safety was always emphasized always going out with another person at that time we had
the Jeeps with the open doors nothing like what we had in Saudi Arabia or anything like that
traffic was always an issue bicycles cyclos and so forth so you had to be careful in that sense
there were the opportunist that would kind of fake an accident if you weren't careful which then
brought the MPS and an investigation and some things like that so you always traveled with
somebody else as far as the vehicle is concerned okay.
James: Mm-hmm, alright. And we're there because the amount of the enlisted were there issues
involving things like drug use or.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: I didn't notice it that much and I don't think I noticed that that much among the combat
troops but certainly in the support sectors were people who were behind in a safe area bored
and being rampant heat being high and everything like that is where I saw some of the drugs
begin to make their encroachment in terms of soldier boredom and so forth. We were pretty
much a male organization at that particular time so didn't see some of the things that we
encountered as far as Desert Storm is concerned okay.
James: But there would have been prostitution and so forth.
Kent: Yeah-
James: -in the city and that kind of thing.
Kent: Yes, right outside the gate to the compound.
James: Now was your compound sort of just for a single brigade or…?
Kent: Just for the First Signal Brigade.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Okay and so you may have had a little bit more select group than you'd have in some of
the bigger bases or…?
Kent: I think probably so certainly as far as Long Binh was huge.
[21:24 - 23:56]
James: Okay alright. Now, did you have any kind of sense from where you were about how the
larger world was going? I mean were we successful as far as you could tell?
Kent: Well we didn't have access to CNN or anything like that that we had in Desert Storm. I
mean it's pretty much mail communication that we had at that particular time. I don't even
remember calling home when I was in Saigon and Vietnam.
James: But there were- but I guess from where you were there might be people who actually
have some idea what was actually happening in the war at the top?
Kent: Stars and Stripes was the primary means of communication.
James: Okay and you would have been there I guess when the Cambodian incursion was going
on?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: 70, 71, so that was after Tet Offensive. Yes 68.
James: But Cambodia was set was mid nineteen seventy so.
Kent: Yeah.
James: I mean if there after that had happened.
Kent: The Ho Chi Minh Trail one, never knew where that went. Yeah, I mean it was supposed to
be in Vietnam but no it crossed the border and got in Laos got into Cambodia etc. So we heard
those kinds of stories but really didn't see anything in print.
James: Because I guess that was the big news item of 1970 was American and South
Vietnamese actually going into Cambodia to try to chase out the North Vietnamese bases. But,
so basically that kind of stuff news from the fighting or whatever was not really-
Kent: Other than what you picked up to the Stars and Stripes or something like that.
James: -Circulated where you were. Alright.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Well we were yeah we were aware of the body count, I mean Vietnam was the body count
was in terms of success okay. So yes aware of that particular measurement as far as success
lack of success so forth.
[23:57 - 25:49]
James: And then did you have any- this is also a period of Vietnamization that is the Americans
were trying to kind of turn more to let South Vietnamese, and did that- was that anything that
you noticed?
Kent: My awareness where the montagnards were terribly helpful to us in terms of the higher
elevations etc. Certainly up in I Corps and II Corps. Vietnamization we're- we're aware of the
politics that was help happening as far as the Saigon government is concerned sometimes
successful sometimes not successful, I think we can say the same thing that's- that's happening
in Afghanistan right now. I mean depending on who you talk to what successful was working
well and you could talk to somebody a day later and say, “you know motivation was slow
couldn't depend on it,” in spite of what we were doing in terms of training and everything like
that.
James: Mm-hmm. Did you have any sense that that sooner or later this whole thing was gonna
go bust, or did you think that situation would kind of go on indefinitely?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: I think most of those who went to Vietnam felt that we went there with a purpose. We
didn't go to Canada or anything like that, we were ordered to go there went there with the intent
of doing the best job that we could possibly do, and felt certainly as you interacted with the
Vietnamese the papasans the mamasans and so forth okay that we were there protecting the
people in terms of North Vietnam and so forth. I mean the black pajamas yeah, we were familiar
with that, we didn't really encounter that we're aware that some of that was going on and so
forth okay. My Lai was not prominent I really learned about My Lai when I came back then- then
when I was there.
James: Alright so basically for you it was simply an assignment you were in the army. You went
there, you did your job, you put in your- you do a full 12 months there?
Kent: Did a full 12 months.
James: Alright did you get an R&R at any point while you were there?
Kent: I had an R&R; but didn't have my wife come over. I went to Australia and actually took a
train up to the Blue Mountains. Stayed with a family, saw Sydney. So it was positive for me
okay.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Totally different experience for a while.
Kent: Yes.
James: Alright so now when you come back then from Vietnam…
[25:50 - 28:29]
Kent: Then I experienced the culture in terms of what's going on back here and so forth. Literally
said, “I wanted nothing to do with this,” had my opportunity to go from a first lieutenant to a
captain. No, the culture was such was negative, not supportive. Higher education certainly
wasn't supportive of it okay. Came back and got a job with Indiana University at South Bend in
71.
James: So did you leave the military entirely?
Kent: I left it entirely.
James: Okay.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Hung my- hung my uniform up. I mean I had the experience coming back through
Oakland and that's what it really began to hit me.
James: So what did you see there? What happens when you get back? Did you land at the
military base and then go to the airport or…?
Kent: So I was- came, landed in Oakland. Was put in a very small room. I just remember is
almost the size of a closet, and you gonna be wondering, you know, when you've got to leave
this place. It was not the place to leave at that particular time because of the culture the anger
and everything like that. So, I just stayed at Oakland base until I caught a plane. I caught a
plane back came through Chicago. I ended up in in Traverse City because that's where my wife
was with her mother and father at that particular time. She moved from Bremen Indiana up to
that area. I was terribly tanned, terribly dark had a mustache. If you would have hung a number
on the front of me you know, you would have guessed I was a criminal someplace.
James: Alright now were you in civilian clothes at this point?
Kent: I was in civilian clothes and I remember looking at my son and he broke out crying
because he didn't know who the hell this stranger was etc. Okay, so that kind of added to my
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
feelings of kind of alienation and discomfort I guess, and coming back and deciding, “I didn't
want to have anything to do with the military.”
James: Alright so then you said you took a job?
[28:30 - 30:36]
Kent: IU South Bend with the Division of Education because I had that educational kind of
background. Alton ruff, the director of the division of education at that time, came from my
particular area. It was kind of the networking that got me started there I absolutely loved it. I
think I made $12,000 a year, realized it was gonna be difficult to support a family of two at that
particular time, and said okay. About a year later I need to look at a second job and look at a
USAR Center or I could go back in as an instructor at Kingsbury Indiana near the Laporte. So,
about a year later, I did get back in as a USAR Instructor for Kingsbury.
James: They are on reserve?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Yep.
James: Alright.
Kent: So, we got back into the reserves for economical purposes and I was doing again
something that I enjoyed doing something was teaching.
James: Alright now was this a job switch or just a second job added on?
Kent: Well kind of instructor, kind of like adjutant-general working with people.
James: Was that a full-time job though I guess?
Kent: No that was an army reserve, because my full-time job was with IU South Bend.
James: Okay, so you still had it so you’ll be here while you're reservist, like the other ones. It's
sort of the weekend a version of the weekend work other thing.
Kent: Yep. Stayed there for one year and then heard about the Civil Affairs Unit in Kalamazoo
Michigan and made the transfer.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Alright, now explain a little bit what that particular unit is.
[30:37 - 32:12]
Kent: Civil Affairs is, if you remember World War two, they provided the liaison the connecting
link with the military with the government with finance with education etc. I mean they were the
link between the military and we now call it host nation okay. So I saw a health team, I saw a
law enforcement team, I saw an education team, I saw an economics kind of team. I said,
“wow,” and about 40% were officers that particular company was commanded by a lieutenant
colonel so there was about 42% officers, senior enlisted and even the senior listed were well
educated and semi-professional professional people so, I saw a networking opportunity. I just
absolutely loved the unit okay. I mean I could see a veterinarian if the- if our dog was having a
problem. I can go talk to the captain. I can talk to the commander, excuse me, the- the director
of police forces in Western Michigan (okay) at Kalamazoo. I mean this was a neat unit okay. So
I loved it and worked myself up to in 90. In 90 I became the company commander and served
my three years there and I remember in November going down and now I have to look for
another position because I had homesteaded there for a long time okay. Where most people
move around from one unit to another unit to advance more quickly and everything like that. So
I managed to stay there through a number of different positions. Finally had to leave and heard
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
about the 21st TACOM, TACOM down in Indianapolis Indiana and they were aligned with a 21st
in Germany at Kaiserslautern. So their annual training would be to fall in in Germany. Whoa
said, “this is a great chance to travel and everything like that,” okay. For two years event two
summers two weeks of annual training in the summer and so forth. So I became their director
assistant chief of staff for host nation support the21st TACOM. I went in and interviewed in
November just a little bit before Thanksgiving and I remember on December 2nd or something
like that they gave me a call. I was sitting at my desk at IU South Bend and they said, “oh by the
way what is your interest in getting into the unit because we're going to be mobilized for the Gulf
War.” I said, “well I interviewed I said I was interested if you get mobilized I will go with the unit,”
and I did on December 4th. They were mobilized in 1990.
James: Ok I just want to back up a little bit. When you were talking about being with a civil
affairs unit I think you were mentioning dates in the 90’s. So you would have met dates in the
eighties or 70’s so when I got back in 70.
Kent: So 72 to 90 I was in the field civil affairs company.
James: Ok now during the time when you were with the civil affairs company did they ever send
you any place, or did you do training in any place?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: That's an interesting question. Yes, I think our first training was to an Indian Reservation
in northern Michigan and we were staying in a school that was our housing facility. And then
working on the reservation and doing different things with Indians. I mean it could be a
construction kind of thing. It could be a- an educational kind of thing and so forth and absolutely
loved it again ok. I mean how can you go wrong with something like this. Now, also during that
time the 315th SIL Affairs company was aligned to support reforger kinds of activities and
events return of forces to Germany and during that time. Even before I got into the taycom I had
spent two weeks of annual training in Belgium and the Netherlands and in Germany which then
supported my going with the taycom which was also totally co-located with the unit and
Kaiserslautern so again thoroughly. I mean how can you get better two weeks of training. So
when I was working at IUSB I was either traveling for weekend training to Kalamazoo and when
I changed to Indianapolis I just went south the other direction and was still doing a similar kind
of thing in terms of civil affairs work.
[32:13 - 37:17]
James: Right okay, but basically during this, that extended period, you're just never mobilized or
anything like that because they didn't have any actual Wars going on.
Kent: That's right.
James: At that particular point but then…?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: But during the Gulf War I met some of my peers out of the 315th that were mobilized, and
over in Gulf War. In fact I ran across them in Kuwait City because they were brought in via
another route and I was then working with a 21st taycom, and Nicholas Batch Lieutenant
Colonel Nicholas Batch it was a law professor at Western Michigan. A great friend of mine that I
stayed in contact with, and I met him over at the airport in Kuwait because he was there with the
415 not to 315 415 civil affairs company.
James: Alright just back around your story here. So essentially, so you join your new unit and
“oh by the way we're being mobilized.” So it's the end of 1990 and find that out okay. I kind of
pick up the story then from there so…
Kent: So we were mobilized on the 4th of December. Spent two weeks of training at home
station again Went through weapons qualification,, got a well started personnel records were
updated Did our CPR first aid training, got equipment issued to you, n-b-c equipment. Got all the
training as far as masking and everything like that. so that you were prepared for that. We didn't
take a lot of equipment with us other than personal equipment okay, and we were in- had an
advance party go over two weeks in advance of Christmas and we basically arrived about a day
before Christmas, the 25th of December.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Alright and how do they get you out there?
Kent: We went from there to Ohio, from Ohio and out to Fort Dix, the East Coast East Coast up
through Iceland, dropped in to Spain, and from Spain then into Saudi Arabia.
James: Okay.
Kent: I see 130.
James: Alright, so military alright, and then what's your first impression then of Saudi Arabia
when you get there?
[37:18 - 39:45]
Kent: Hot. We landed at night at Dharan air base, which is probably about 15 kilometers from
where the 21st TACOM was working out of at that particular time. We were put- they had some
makeshift accommodations. Actually, they had brought in some trailers so they had- they had
five lieutenant colonels in one trailer and there was a restroom in the middle and three on one in
and two of the other and I said, “ well this is kind of crowded on this and I wonder why there's
three of us here and as vs 2 there.” Well I found out the day after Christmas that I was going to
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
go full.. So you know I was kind of the excess person with all the other Lieutenant Colonels on
that end of the trailer. After that, the trailer was traded for Khobar towers. Which is a high-rise
complex that most of the unit went into after that, and then they started putting some Kuwaiti
refugees into the trailer complex that we had so, I didn't have bad accommodations again I
wasn't living in a tent okay.
James: So were you there when the Iraqis were launching Scud missiles?
Kent: So by that time I was up at KKMC: King Khalid Military City, off of what we call Tapline
Road that kind of ran from east to west also known as MSR main supply route Dodge. It was the
road that was used to really build King Khalid Military City. King Khalid is an interesting complex
and it sits right out in the middle of the desert about 40 klicks south of Hafra-bat, which was the
main city in that particular area. Now the US engineers have the ingenuity starting in about
1974, the Saudi started looking to develop some military complexes and King Khalad Military
City was one of three, the other one was in Tabuk which is toward Jordan in the north western
part of Saudi Arabia, and one was way down south and then this one KKMC, King Khalid
Military City. King Khalid Military City had the second largest cement plant in the world. It's in the
shape of a hexagon, an elaborate structure, that was designed to support at least a brigade
from the Saudis. Actually, some would say it would hold up to three brigades. In the shape of a
hexagon underground parking, okay, had actually a hotel complex that was about four stories
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
stories high and we were in some barracks that were four to five stories high and much like a
college dorm and we had three of us to a room again. It was in the shape of figure eight, little
courtyards in the middle of that, and several of those. So the Saudi army was in that until we
deployed and they went to the field because now in August, when the Iraqis invaded Kuwait,
that now brought a brigade from Tabuk and a brigade from down south to be on the front line
with Iraq at that time. And it also took the brigade out of KKMC and put ‘em on the front line so
the barracks was empty, and that's how we managed to get in there on the day after Christmas.
James: And now what- what is your unit expecting to do?
[39:46 - 43:43]
Kent: So we’re the liaison okay. I was assistant chief of staff northern province for host nation
support. So I would liaison with General Pagones, who was the commander, then the 22nd
Support Command we went from the 21st to the 22nd in country. Okay he was a two-star in
charge of that he was promoted to a three-star Lieutenant General by Schwarzkopf January so
that he could compete and work with the two corps commanders, which was the 18thAairborne
and the 7th Corps. So by that by the time that we got there in December pretty much the 18th
Airborne was in and he was on the verge of being promoted at that particular time. The air war
started what January 16th and we were in the midst of moving the 7th Corps and at that point,
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
ok, and his main headquarters was out of Dahran. The major port was Demam, an excellent
deepwater port etc. and General Pagones said, “you know I was there a couple of weeks after
Iraq invaded on the 2nd of August,” and he told the story of operating out of the back end of a
car ready. Actually cash in his trunk, because he had about seven guys working with him, and
they brought the 18th airborne in before they brought the support. So he was well behind the
power curve in terms of support, so I was his forward up at KKMC for a host nation support. The
main was still back at Dahran and I went up there with myself and two other people. We
eventually had some more civil affairs support from the 304th. See, a group and my cell got up
to 17 people in working all host nation issue. So what's the host nation issue? Well if you want
to come up with a logistics base in the desert you had to ask for that land you just getting
couldn't go out and start parking there and start developing your support base. So we got into all
kinds of things firing ranges, log bases, Concord support centers. Actually using the main supply
routes etc. and back to KKMC. KKMC is about 18 square miles had its own airport brigade-size
well-developed was called the Emerald City because it had a fountain right in the center of it
okay. Had a hotel there, had five Mosques there, had three swimming pools there, and had
eight wells. Now the well our engineers could go down 200 feet and tap a well. The well at
KKMC was 2,000 feet deep huge, about eight inch diameter et cetera. So that's where the water
came from to support the 18th Airborne Corps the 7th Corps et cetera it was the logistics hub
with log base Bravo at KKMC.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Now did you have Saudi counterparts to go?
Kent: Yes, oh yes. Two-star General Al-Kemy. General Al-Kemy was the commander one star
brigadier-general Shaheri was the operations guy one star Abdul Momen was the cut of the s-1
equivalent so we had the s3 the s4 the commander and the s-1 that was my liaison.
James: Alright, and what were these people like to work with?
[43:44 - 47:50]
Kent: Great, and most have been to school in the u.s. Most spoke English, but all of our
requests for host nations. Host nation support we did about 600 during the period of time that
were- though had to be written in Arabic okay. So, we got the request in English we converted it
to Arabic that was then converted it's submitted to the liaison it then went from alchemy to Abdu
Momen and somebody that had to approve it came back to us in Arabic we then transfer
transferred it into English and then got back to the unit that was making the request so there's a
story there when we first went we had access to a linguist from Special Forces it was there that
lasted about two weeks then I got a good captain that could speak and write Arabic from the
304th civil affairs group that lasted about two weeks and Pagones says Laudeman I need this
captain because he needs to write with the Egyptian Het-Battalion and a Het-Battalion is
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
something can transport an m1 tank from the port up and that was the pressure so to make sure
that that head got down to the port one day run picked up made another run back another day
and then was down for maintenance we put with it captain from the 304th C.A group that was a
linguist that could work with the Egyptians to make sure that that happens so there went my
linguist again okay now I got into a situation where I heard about sergeant Morris Kent Morris he
was a sergeant e5 he was working with a transportation company and the company needed a
four-wheel Jeep Cherokee that I had access to and I needed a linguist so it's probably the best
trade I ever made in my life I got the linguist we started submitting requests to the Saudis again
all right the things you get in to a host nation and support okay.
James: Did you get to keep this one?
Kent: I kept them and we actually put him one of their signs because I had managed to then hire
a third country national from the Sudan that we got cleared and I could put in the office to do the
translation and conversion from the English to the Arabic and submission than the Arabic back
to the English again.
James: Alright, now did the- did you have any problems with the Saudis or were they generally
helpful?
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Saudis Ramadan started during this period of time Ramadan is one month of basically
fasting from daylight to sundown and that created some problems for us and because the
Saudis generally would then would spend the evenings with their families and festivities and of
course they got hungry they got a little bit disenchanted during the daytime etc okay were not as
easy to work with their Sunday was technically on Friday so we had to work around that they
also had the five prayer periods during the day we had to work around that we couldn't go over
and talk to our counterparts during that particular time or if we do we do well enough to cool our
heels in the office for a period of time because they went to the prayer session etc . so yeah
there were some some adjustments we had to make one of my favorite sayings was inshallah
God willing so Jonas had a stand up brief in the morning about thirty minutes where all that just
an assistant Chiefs of Staff would indicate what they're working on for the particular day what
the problems were that they saw and so forth very quick he sat down the rest of the stood up
half-hour meeting in the morning and then we had a major sit down during the evening about an
hour and a half PowerPoint slides out the wazoo I had my own and many times during that
briefing I'd say inshallah God willing we will get an answer back and be able to help you out in
terms of what the request was and so forth.
James: Alright but I guess the Saudis as far as you could tell right so happy to have us there
[47:51 - 52:23]
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: they were happy to have us on their time frame though not necessarily the army
timeframe the army timeframe wanted it done right away so one of those was one of the stories
was General Pargonas says Laudeman I heard that the Saudis had some trucks for us that we
might be able to use because we were short of transportation assets and one of my stories the
letters of the that I sent to you was yeah he heard about that so I said a Lottermen I want you to
go over and check with the general Sharia and I hear there's some trucks that might be
available to help us out because we were short I mean we had the Egyptian Ha-Battalion then
we sent the linguist with to make sure that they were working in a regular kind of way getting all
the tanks and tracks up and everything like that so I said sir follow up on it so I went over the
next day I talked to general shahuri and he says yeah I got some trucks throughout the desert
for you and he wrote me out an order he put it in the envelope and put a wax seal on it okay so
I couldn't see what it was in it was in Arabic anyhow he did that on the morning so that day we
left and headed to the desert I took Kent Morris with me he was my linguist and we thought we
knew where we were going we’re gonna go about 20 klicks this way turn left go another clicks
20 klicks see beside the road there was this tire that was in the sand at that point we were
supposed to turn right and go another couple clicks well we did that to the best of our
knowledge we came upon a Syrian camp interesting the Syrians were some of the support
forces that were part of the coalition forces there and we asked about a truck parked in the
desert we were told there's 800 trucks here well you would think that you could be able to see
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
that you know the desert was flat except for a curb down you lost sight of it okay we didn't think
it'd be that hard so the Syrians said you know go couple clicks this way and and see if you can I
think it's located there I think we ran across or something well we went two clicks and there was
an Egyptian unit there because there were Egyptian forces there too helping us out okay they
said well no we think it's over this way about to more Clicks so we went a couple more clicks
finally we ran into a compound and we were looking for a Colonel Nasser at that time now
Colonel Nasser is like Colonel Bob I mean the names you know they never used last name they
used first name so Colonel Nasser we went through barbed wire Concertina and there was a
single building sitting there probably about a 10 feet by 10 feet and with a couple of vehicles
parked outside and Constantine around the outside and there was a guard so he let us in we
parked and we went in we went to the basement here's Colonel Nasser he was watching TV
and happened to be a cartoon now there are two channels a religious channel and a cartoon
channel but he was watching the cartoon channel at that particular time he took the envelope
and gave us some shy some green coffee okay or tea had to start out with that first looked at it
and he called the captain of Gandhi and said picked it up on his phone and said captain Gandhi
come up here I want you to meet a couple of guys he came up there in about 20 minutes had
some more tea okay Galla, Shy and so forth and he says I'm gonna take you to the truck park
so we went another three kilometers into the desert and we saw some tanker trucks first and
said we're getting close and beyond the tanker trucks there was this big high burn that they had
wall dirt up around common defensive kind of perimeter etc and inside he took us in there and
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
sure enough there was this truck farm okay so we struck a deal to get 490 trucks some were we
were really looking for 18-wheelers flatbeds.
James: Mm-hmm.
[52:24 - 56:33]
Kent: to haul heavy equipment we got about 90 of those with sides about another 90 with
outsides and another a hundred and eighty or so which were straight trucks they were actually
called circus trucks because they were painted all different colors and had sides all around and
said okay we'll take the 480 trucks and he said oh by the way a hundred eighty these trucks
come with drivers so you're going to need to come back tomorrow with your transportation
people and pick up the trucks but bring along somebody else that can be the commander of the
one hundred and eighty drivers that have their own trucks and we did that the next day.
James: Where did you find the people to drive the trucks?
Kent: well it came from the transportation companies that were located in and around KKMC
because hey we were about 25,000 Strong both the Dahran, Demam and up there okay by that
time and we brought a company commander that was going to take charge of this 180 trucks
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
with drivers all third country nationals he picked them up he took him back about a month later I
saw him and he says can't don't ever do this to me again and here are the issues they came
with their own little stoves prayer rugs and so forth okay and the first thing he learned is that he
had to support them with meals well he had this morning support he had to sort out any MREs
with pork in it that makes perfect sense okay but he said you know we worked through that but
one day I didn't get them the necessary oil that they they needed and all of a sudden they pulled
their own oil plugs and drained everything out in the sand and couldn't couldn't do anything
couldn't make the well a mail delivery couldn't make the water delivery couldn't move some of
the small ammunition that we had on pallets and so forth I mean he came to a dead stop until
they got oil and that's just the way it worked so he got his trucks but he also got a headache of
problems at the same time.
James: Alright now as all of this stuff is kind of going on are you kind of paying attention to any
of the build-up toward having an actual war.
Kent: oh yes so we had access to CNN unlike Vietnam I mean we could actually see what was
being reported back stateside etc so we could tune in we were very on top of it we had the Stars
and Stripes and we also had access to a Saudi paper that was in English okay so we can see
what the Saudis were saying at the same time I was surprised because the Saudi headquarters
asked for CNN if they could have access to CNN and we sent over a female signal sergeant to
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
install it which was kind of a no-no I mean females driving trucks wearing t-shirts in Saudi Arabia
etc was a no-no culturally speaking but again the officers etc over there were pretty much
accepting because they'd been stateside they speak English and so forth all right so yes we had
more access to what was happening certainly in the Gulf War we know when the air war was
starting and we knew what was happening with the air war we know when the blues brothers
were being dropped we know when the daisy cutter' is being dropped and the thing that we
started watching in those hour-and-a-half briefings at night was the available of heat rounds for
artillery those rounds were important because they were going to penetrate the t-62s the 72s
the 52 s etc. and we're ready to go we could see that nightly but as that got up then we knew
that we're going to be close to the launch of the ground war on February 24th.
[56:34 - 60:44]
James: Alright and now wet as the ground war starts or the immediate build-up mean what
happens with you or what are you doing?
Kent: we're still filling all these requests whatever the requests might be all right and we saw
request for barrier material I mean we had this big cement plant and there were slabs of cement
there left from the construction and everything like that but the Saudis weren't willing to give that
up okay and in spite of the thing you would think that with sand you could take an entrenching
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
tool dig a foxhole it was very hard underneath that sand so we were engaged in getting Saudi
equipment back holds bulldozers anything like that that would help the units that were located
either within KKMC itself or even on the outside of that I mean everybody was fearing a threat at
that particular time and I wanted to do as much barrier developing as they possibly could so we
were engaged in all that stuff.
James: In your story now to the point where the attack or the…
Kent: So we could see the ground war was imminent and we had the briefing that we could
follow and see what Schwarzkopf and other commanders down at Riyadh were kind of thinking
we got good feedback on the air war that had started on what January 16th we knew that they
were bombing deep and now we could see those targets beginning to come closer and closer
and so forth okay and we were starting to get some inclinations that there were some desertions
that were happening okay about 35 Iraqis were showing up here and there now that led to
another issue in EPW camps and all of a sudden we had the 800 MP brigade show up which
then brought okay I need land I equipment for a wall I need razor well I need tenting I need
cooking stuff I need hygiene stuff I mean that just started a whole doubt huge of needs that we
turned to the Saudis to try to help them out because they didn't bring it with him so we were just
in perpetually we were just one issue after another issue depending on what was happening at
the particular time.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Okay and then what happens? Then when the ground war actually begin.
Kent: So now the ground war starts okay and now we realize wow it's a million meals a day to
keep this going it's six million gallons of jp4 and diesel and Bo gas to keep this going it's
ammunition are we going to get it there quick enough it's the unit with the right hook the air
board is going a hundred kilometers 160 kilometers in a day and all of a sudden we got log
[60:45 - 63:53]
bases far forward but is it going to be able to reach okay the unit's now that are moving that fast
so it's a rush to move everything forward water fuel food are we're gonna need replacement
parts I mean if we don't have to worry about barrier material anymore cuz we're moving so
damn fast okay we don't even have to think about that but now now what are you gonna do with
the dead we had a grave battalion that was located at KKMC graves and registration battalion
and here's a side bar we didn't know how many casualties were going to have I mean this was
the mother of all wars this is 500,000 Iraqis on one side and almost 200,000 combat but
500,000 on the other side that's going to clash at where we've got these trenches dug and oil
that's there and everything like that okay and what are we going to do with casualties and are
we prepared for the casualties and all of a sudden the Saudis come online and said what are we
going to do with Iraqi casualties because we have a tremendous responsibility for our own
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
casualties and how it works from the company back to the battalion to the division to the Corps
and out of country and a KKMC the great Battalion was out of country as soon as possible that
is a primary mission and a core value as far as the u.s. is concerned so we pray we try to press
that upon the Saudis what are we going to do with the Iraqi casualties okay whether it's in Iraq
across the line perhaps perhaps in Saudi Arabia where we gonna have to take care of and so
forth so we come up we've got to come up with a equivalent kind of Saudi company with some
platoons to do that so in about two days we're working that with the Saudis they took a band
unit of Saudis and converted it to a platoon of Saudis okay now you got to have the trucks you
gotta have the back hose you got to have the wipe wrapping material what are you going to do
and so forth and we were making great progress we were ready to launch that group and all of a
sudden Saudis say hey I can't cross the line between our country and Iraq and we don't
necessarily want to bury them because they've feared that the Iraqis would find them and make
it an incident etc okay so we have that great fear hanging over a head as well as we had three
evacuation hospitals locator to KKMC the Emerald City was such it had an eight-story hospital
so the three evac’s were located all around it using the resources there etc. I mean this was
huge this is a mother of all battles that was going to happen on about a 300 mile front here right
in front of us not more than sixty to a hundred kilometers from us so we have all of those things
that we were working through okay ground war okay we're going the AirCam pen is damaged as
much as it can we've seen it we've watched it we see it's getting closer and closer EPW’s start
to show up we got the 800th MP brigade in here the start and develop forty five thousand
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
EPW’s is expected over around KKMC and also further to the west now we got to start thinking
about refugee camps okay because all of a sudden we've got deserters beginning to show up
so that's huge on top of the supply mission and we're working all of this to the best of our
capability at that particular time so we launch now we got to keep the fuel going the water going
and everything like that okay we had probably a hundred buses from the Saudis because to
move the troops forward they didn't have enough military assets on their own we brought only
one bus back after the brown war because they had ground them into the sand and everything
that was going forward okay was designed now to bring back our own casualties as necessary
but all of a sudden we had all these EPW’s that we're being brought back on anything that was
a supply
[63:54 - 68:46]
nature where we took the flatbed forward with the ammunition and everything like that well
they're coming back empty okay but now hey we had EPW just corralled in the sand in the
desert and a couple of soldiers watching over them waiting to be picked up I mean that's what
was happening behind the battle lines in that particular time there was always something going
on that needed attention and support as much as we could get from the Saudis the Saudis
basically paid for everything in country we had to keep track of it though okay all those buses all
those trucks ect. They paid for now the trucks where did the trucks come from they were all
consigned for by the Saudis so they moved the coalition forces first and they were then sitting in
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
the truck farm and that's why they were offered to the US because we were late coming into the
theater with a 7th Corps and trying to move supplies forward ok but they're all contracted and
that 180 they were privately owned by the the third country national driver of that particular truck
so in spite of everything you know looking like a war it was still contracting payments and
everything like that going on at the same time. Did I lose you?
James: No, No. So the shooting war only lasted a few days.
Kent: So 100 our war okay now now we have the problem in Basra with the Shiites ok fearing
Sunnis and Saddam ect. Okay and now we had refugee needs that were starting to develop
okay and the next thing that was happening after the 100-hour war we put the tents up at
Southwind when Schwartzkopf went up there to negotiate the end to it etc okay provided the
security for it so some more logistics kinds of things happening okay so now the 100-hour war
ends we're trying to stabilize things in southern Iraq with the 1st armored division the first
entered division etc ok and as things begin to quiet down now what happens it's Katie bar the
door because the US wants to get at soldiers home so redeployment becomes our top issue
and at the same time that that's happening we have the issue happening with the Kurds way up
north so now we're flying some of that supplies tentage water MRI’s okay that we didn't use we
build up about 45 days worth of supply we use three days worth or a hundred hours worth and
now we're starting to ship that stuff up to northern Iraq to support the Kurds so we got another
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
logistics mission that's happening at the same time that we're trying to now move the 18th
Airborne Corps out and the seventh Corps out ok so here's another story 1st Armored Division
comes back they got a redeployment area that's 20 by 25 kilometer square huge area before
they can send their equipment to the port they've got to clean it this is U.S agricultural kind of
requirement ok which means you need water you need water you need water you always need
water so what happens in their 20 by 25 kilometer square area they had a Saudi that they had
contracted who had a private well of his own and there was also a well in a small Saudi Vale
that village that had about probably 15 huts in it ok they were more than a hut not a Tin Hunt or
anything like that it was substantial mud and so forth ok so the first Armored Division had
promised to repair the well that had broken remember this is two thousand feet deep ok and in
the meantime he had a private well that was outside the little village and the 1st Armored
Division had sent over some guys to put down a fifty thousand dollar bag and start drawing
[68:47 - 73:24]
water off of it and he got angry because they weren't repairing the well that was part of the deal
ok so all of a sudden Kent Morris and I go out there he's my linguist and we find four guys over
here with ak-47 Saudis and over on this side is four guys with m16s and each claiming the bag
the water etc and the guy saying I'm not gonna pump anymore till you start paying me and the
us saying hey we need it never going to take it so we went out and a day later we cut a contract
for thirty thousand riyals a month it's about eight thousand dollars a month to draw that
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
water okay he started out at a hundred and twenty thousand riyals a month okay the Saudis
knew when they had somebody that they could make some money off oh I mean that was the
bad thing about host nation and contracting is the doggone cost kept going up every time he
went back and he needed more it had doubled it had tripled and we needed to bring the Saudis
in to find out what's a reasonable rate for whatever is involved whether it's water whether it's
fresh fruits and vegetables whether it's bread I mean you lived on MREs for about 30 days and
then you know that was a morale Buster so we had to get the fresh fruit water and everything
like that that we got from the Saudis we got them from the Saudis okay at a cost at a cost.
James: so how long did you wind up spending in Saudi Arabia then?
Kent: I was there too I got back in June and by that time we had brought into into Saudi Arabia
400,000 short tons of ammunition we only used 50,000 short tons so short we had 350,000 tons
to clean up pack up and ship back okay we had firing ranges before we launched the ground
war where they did practice in the desert and there was unexploded ordnance that didn't
explode when they fired at downrange and to this day I know that some camel herder or
bedowin is going to stumble on that blown to hell okay there then we had to bring in the legal
team we had to solve that particular issue pay the amount at etc. I mean during during the buildup we had almost 25 vehicles passing a single point in a minute on Tapline Road which is MSR
Dodge and at one time during the buildup we were losing almost a soldier a day to a traffic
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
accident part of that was due to the inexperienced Saudi drivers they drove like a teenager
excuse me if you were on a two-lane highway and going too slow they’d just cut to the desert
went around okay we didn't have enough MPs to put all over the place so it's a dangerous place
to be and one time the,slogan when the briefing slide was what not one more soldier that we
were losing to a traffic accident because of the high intensity as far as supporting the troops the
two cores are out there plus the British division was out there the French division was out there
coalition forces were out there all using the same two lane highway MSR dodge.
James: Now did things eventually wind down for you or…?
Kent: when I left we were trying to move everything out okay including all the equipment came
in the ammunition that came in and everything like that okay so we're beginning to wane down
it's all coming back to KKMC except we were going to put a brigade size unit in Kuwait so in that
case we were cleaning up the equipment to move it to a new base and that was gonna become
[73:25 - 77:38]
a support base in Kuwait just outside of Kuwait City in the event Saddam decided to do
something again the Shiites that were still in southern Iraq because that hadn't settled down all
together okay so when I left we still had a host nation office that was still working in supporting
the Redeployment in terms of moving equipment out and so forth move the personnel out first
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
then we moved the equipment out etc okay I mean you the ammunition dump that we had you
couldn't even see to the end of it I mean just stacked up and it came in at a pallet but by the
time it came back though came back in vehicles the pallets were broken so it had to be cleaned
up had to be repalletized then reloaded put her on to an 18-wheeler ship back to the port loaded
back up on the ship and taken out again okay we had we had 20-foot and 40-foot containers
stacked double and triple high in the desert okay got in too late.
James: Now, did your unit go out together or did you leave individually or…?
Kent: so we came we had an advance party that came in that was I think about the six strong
early December then the main unit was a hundred and fifty they came in before Christmas and
then we came out in May most of us came out in May early June we left behind though a fairly
sizable cell of about twenty thirty some of those were volunteers that came from other units that
augmented the 21st TACOM that was working with the 22nd because the movement took place
for another year to get stuff out of country so there were some volunteers that stayed well after
that yeah.
James: Alright because yours was a reserve unit and there is an expectation that they get to go
back home.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: Yeah we thought we thought it would be over at about two months right I was listening to
this story earlier here in Korea they thought it was gonna be quick well I remember Pagones
getting up on a stage and saying you know you longings are gonna be here in the last out he's
absolutely right.
James: Now did you get into Kuwait yourself?
Kent: I was in Kuwait several times
James: What were you doing there?
Kent: we had in the hospital it's about 300 patients those three M evac hospitals the Iraqis came
across the line because they got hurt and things like that I mean that kept hitting the units all
along so we had a build up of 300 patients in the evac hospitals that was located there KK MC
and we did one bus trip back to softmod which was up through Kuwait and then into southern
Iraq we also did what about 18 Chinook lifts of which about we had about 24 Iraqis each and
[77:39 - 80:43]
getting because the evac Hospital couldn't leave until excuse me the patients were cleared out
some didn't want to go back okay so wanted to claim asylum and so forth that was a whole
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
other issue that we had to work through so yes probably Highway one where a A-10 shot up the
highway and just terrific desert action I mean you could smell that when you drove through there
and I was through there about two days afterwards okay work in that particular area is
devastating I mean the number of vehicles everything that was on the vehicles and everything
like that.
James: now were there also oil fires?
Kent: oh yes yep so you drove through a black region I mean it was just like night so our guys
our guys were exposed to plutonium as far as the ammunition is concerned they were exposed
to pesticides because we used a lot of pesticides in the desert there they were exposed to the
oil fires that were there so I don't know what's going to come out of the Gulf War when we really
start to look at 10 15 years later like we looked at Agent Orange coming out of Vietnam and so
forth okay it's hard to say.
James: and that's independent of any kind of chemical or biological agents the Iraqis might have
had someplace or whatever
Kent: yeah yeah
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: at the same time all right now thought you would talked about you know your being in
Saudi Arabia and so forth and being able to see the news and that kind of stuff did you have
more personal communication with home and you would have in Vietnam
Kent: oh yes I might also share with you I think we left a million dollar telephone bill because we
figured out how we could direct down the home without but now if you were unit in the sand I
mean you had the the phone banks there etc. okay but remember we were inside the Emerald
City okay this is this is a well developed area so personally I knew where I could go to find a
phone and I could direct dial home the only thing I had to watch was the eight hour difference
between home and us now we didn't abuse it but everybody on the team could have to call back
at least once okay so that was much different much different.
James: Alright now when you do leave that what's the physical process of getting out where do
you fly out of and where do you go?
Kent: So KKMC we went back down to Dahran, Dahran we loaded on a plane a civilian plane in
this case it wasn't a c-130 I remember I don't remember where we stopped but we flew directly
in to Indianapolis in this case so not the East Coast not the West Coast I mean family
[80:44 - 83:41]
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
was there waiting when we came in etc and it was Katie bar the door nobody wanted to hang
around the center any longer than you have to just a quick debriefing safety instruction go out
on leave and then come back and you start working on what you need to do as far as reports
are concerned and so forth all right very pleasant.
James: Kind of a contrast to coming back from Vietnam.
Kent: yes the 180 again just a complete different.
James: Okay so what kind of cleanup then did you have to do once you got back you have to
have a lot of worked a lot of paperwork to do?
Kent: Not bad at all because we didn't take any heavy equipment transportation wise over with
us so it's mainly personnel equipment after-action reports doing things of that nature lessons
learned we always had lessons learned I always say lessons forgotten because they got written
down and it seemed like it always came up two years later and said did we just go through this
nut throw but people change and that's what happens they don't necessarily read the afteraction report or the lessons learned or things change in terms of the equipment and everything
like that I mean when we went to Operation Joint Endeavor 95 96 I mean we commuted
communicated by the internet I mean that's how we came through those three different kinds of
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
things I mean that was just that absolutely amazing I was still communicating with IUSB in terms
of my work role via the Internet at that time.
James: So you’re back in 91 then you have… things are relatively quiet for four years?
Kent: For about four years I still at IUSB in 95 the balloon goes up for operation Joint Endeavor
the mobile I the unit gets mobilized again not 150 I want to say about 80 or 90 we fell in on
Kaiserslautern at that particular time and we the main operating base was out of Kaiserslautern
Germany and we had a forward log unit at the end of the rail line in Hungary because we were
now moving stuff out of Germany down to Hungary and then from Hungary on into Serbia
Kosovo etc Croatia okay.
James: So this is all peacekeeping and what used to be Yugoslavia the other support.
Kent: Yeah again a very safe environment long missions now I'm working with the Germans the
Austrians and the Hungarians and a liaison kind of way to make sure the rail lines are open
making sure that we have convoy clearances in terms of moving stuff via the highway and
everything of that nature so again in a very safe kind of environment protective kind of
environment working with the host nation solving problems keeping things moving etc I mean I
couldn't ask for anything better again okay.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
[83:42 - 86:43]
James: Alright were there notable differences between how the Germans Austrians Hungarians
worked or was it fairly seamless?
Kent: W ell the Germans were very well prepared because remember we had reforger and
return of forces to Germany during the Cold War then we had reforger where we moved
everything out of Germany okay the seventh Corps down to Saudi Arabia so a lot of experience
there okay and and prepositioned equipment and Germany and everything like that where we
had nothing pre position as far as the Saudis were concerned so we had that experience
coming out of Germany again in supporting operation Joint Endeavor and the liaison were just
excellent okay I mean they knew the inside and the out the Australian liaison officer know who
to contact to get the convoy clearance if there was any problem along the road and everything
like that again just tremendous professional and personnel in a counterpart kind of way okay at
all military okay but the military knew who would contact in a civilian kind of way.
James: Right. Within Austria or Hungary, was it different there.
Kent: No same thing.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Okay.
Kent: Great liaison again the only thing is in Hungary we jammed so much in terms of the rail
they didn't have time to unload it we backed up the trains when we're starting bad.
James: Now I guess if you and then that's getting right down to the point pretty much where you
rule.
Kent: so 96 I come back third deployment or third combat area not quite so close combat each
one of those times I am at IUSB and IUSB is a little bit unsung with me now they I got pulled out
twice as a professional person there and we all understand the laws and everything like that but
that puts a tremendous strain on the office that you're trying to run and everything like that okay
I kind of felt like I had out warned my welcome there I always refer to myself when I got
mobilized for Desert Storm but I was a closeted reservists most of the professors there the staff
there didn't know that I was participating or anything like that so they were utterly surprised and
I guess that was part of my education is to write the letters home from the Gulf and kind of
educate him a little bit more on what a reservist does when he's mobilized and so forth okay so I
came back in 96 assuming my same job again kind of associate dean for student services and
registrar and I had applied part of that to West Point for registrar's and an assistant dean kind of
position but I didn't make it any place and they hired in person kind of thing I learned later so the
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
second time I said I'm gonna give this another shot but I downplayed my military bio because
the first time I did play my military bio with West Point you'd think that'd be a positive right so I
[86:44 - 89:50]
downplayed that work more on the civilian part of it. Got invited to an interview and they were
pleasantly surprised to hear my military background as I went through the committee and was
shown around and everything like that and that went well I mean in 97 I was headed then in
June to United States Military Academy stayed there for thirteen years and absolutely loved
every year of it okay put me back in higher education again I had the adult student so I had
missed the maturity of the adult student and had pretty much the 18 to 21 year old and some
immaturity I shouldn't say that okay but great students cadets again but a different kind of cadet
okay so I was back working in higher education absolutely loved it again okay teaching
leadership course psych course and so forth and then stayed there for 13 years to 2010.
James: So you're doing that then through 9/11 and through..
Kent: I'm a civilian though I'm a civilian in a military setting okay because I hit my mandatory
retirement date after 28 years so and I hit that the same year 97 that I went to West Point so I
went in as a civilian
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
James: Right so what was the response at West Point to 9/11.
Kent: well that was devastating and I remember sitting at my desk when we saw the first thing
happening on TV and it impacted it impacted many parents that were connected to the towers
and had son or daughter Westland I mean that's where you really felt it but in addition to that a
lot of the firemen and the policemen didn't live in Manhattan proper they lived upstate you know
an hour and a half two hours away because of the cost of living and oh by the way if you're a
policeman or fireman you went down for three shifts you could work the 3 shifts you had a place
to stay you come back to the community etc so some of the local communities really got hit hard
in terms of firemen and policemen so that was a second whammy during 9/11 so it's not only
the Academy but the small community fort Montgomery that we lived in or the surrounding
communities there that we really felt the impact of that and that's where our security went up at
at West Point and all of a sudden you didn't have enough MPs to put on the front gate in an
extended kind of way and so the Dean at one star was out there pulling security at the front gate
we were pulling security there any military was pursuing security civilians helped out kind a way
and I remember the Dean coming back one night and saying boy you never want to be on duty
when the hockey team comes back because their bags are really strong there's a lot of little
stories like that that you know you'd never hear any place else but just kind of humanizes
everything that happens and what happened after 2010 ok I’m on social security by nowI’m
getting older maybe it's time to retire and Diane wanted to come back at that particular time so I
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
came back spent a year we built a new house but the whole Walker lower basement was
undeveloped I said well that's going to be my task for a year so 125 sheets of sheetrock 10 foot
high so forth I have totally immersed myself in that took my lunch back into the basement
worked hard there and I literally flunked retirement I flunked retirement and I was serving on a
[89:51 - End]
committee at at the alcohol addictions and Resource Center in South Bend and I had served on
when I was with IUSB on the board of directors went back I showed my resume there and
Steve Camilleri the executive director for the center of the homeless on my resume and say hey
you know we're opening up a center a 24 bed Center for homeless veterans and he talked me
into that okay so in 2012 I became a 2011 the end of 2011 I became the director of the Robert
Miller Veterans Center for homeless veterans of 24 bed facility and I've been there since almost
5 plus years
James: it was that South Bend
Kent: that's in South Bend.
James: Alright yeah well there are worse ways to flunk retirement I think.
�Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Kent Laudeman
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chad Hitchcock
Kent: It keeps me busy, it gets me out of the house I think.
James: Alright well thanks for a pretty remarkable and unusual story. different thank you very
much for taking the time.
Kent: Thank you for what you're doing with veterans okay.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_LaudemanK2133V
Title
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Laudeman, Kent (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Date
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2017-06-20
Description
An account of the resource
Kent Laudeman was born in 1943 in Bremen, Indiana. After graduating high school, he attended college to avoid the draft for seven years, but was eventually drafted into the Army in 1968. He completed both basic and advanced training at Fort Dix, New Jersey, before being sent to Fort Jordan, Georgia, for MLS training and then Fort Ben Harrison for basic officer training. In August of 1970, Laudeman was deployed to Vietnam for only a year. Due to his struggles supporting a family, he went to USAR in Kingsbury as an on-reserve instructor and, at the end of 1990, was called to action in Saudia Arabia in KKMC (King Kalaat Military City). After a year in KKMC, he returned to the states until 1995, when he was brought to Hungary for Project: Joint Endeavor. In 1996, he returned to the United States after his last deployment.
Creator
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Laudeman, Kent
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/34d7f3fa88b9612de4b684bd32ddaabe.mp4
68b5f5449ebbc07797731c1102cfb553
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dc740b15f7c41949f1b3d43c064f2476.pdf
286210e5e9d6a20ea4430ea619ec1818
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Will Holton
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: We are talking today with Will Holton of Grand Rapids, Michigan, and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History
Project. Okay, now Will, can you start us off on some background on yourself? And to
begin with, where and when were you born?
Veteran: I was born in Crockett County, Tennessee.
Interviewer: And your date of birth?
Veteran: January the 19th, 1919.
Interviewer: Very good. And how long did you live there?
Veteran: When I was 4 years old, my parents went to Blytheville, Arkansas. And they stayed at
Blytheville, Arkansas until I was 14.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, and so at that time, when you were in Arkansas, what was your
family doing for a living?
Veteran: Oh, farmer. We were farmer.
Interviewer: Alright. And did you rent land? Or did you own land?
Veteran: Well, before we went to Arkansas…Okay, my father was raised by Arleyy Loud and
Book [?] Loud, so far as I know, I am just going by what I am told because see I don’t know. He
owned, you know like—He was their guy so he run things. So I say, when I was four years old,
�then he left and went to Arkansas. We stayed there like ten years and then we come right back to
where we left. Then we stayed there until I was 16, then we went to Alamo. That’s the county,
the biggest town in Crockett County. Then there, I started to work for the county. (00:02:00)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, how much schooling did you have?
Veteran: 10th grade.
Interviewer: Okay. And so then, you started working for the county?
Veteran: At 19 years old.
Interviewer: Okay, and what work were you doing?
Veteran: Back then they had what they called a WPA and so you wasn’t supposed to get on the
WPA until you were 20 years old, but I got married when I was 18 years old. Before I got
married, I signed up. They had a program that’s called you work two days and you go to school
three days. That’s what I signed up for. But I got married before the card come back. When it
come back, it said the WPA. So, my daddy didn’t sign up for me…
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: So, they had to—I wasn’t old enough but beings I was married, they had to let me work
so they give me the water—I was a water boy until there was a man that…A hard guy that
knowed my parents. He seen after the tractors and things. When he found out I was, you know,
he took me—then I worked with him, gas up the tractors and caterpillar and put the new regular
tracks on and everything. And so, I worked there for three years. Then after that cut out, I went
to Paris, Tennessee. And they were building an army camp, and I worked up there all winter.
�And when that job was played out, I come back to Alamo. And then I went to work at the fish
plant in Malvern.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: But then I worked at—my wife died. And then, about 6 months after my wife died, I
had to go to the Army. (00:04:01)
Interviewer: Okay, you got a draft notice then. Do you remember how you heard about
Pearl Harbor?
Veteran: I heard about Pearl Harbor after I got out to the Army.
Interviewer: Okay, so when that happened, you didn’t have—
Veteran: I mean, Pearl Harbor? Oh yeah.
Interviewer: The attack, yeah.
Veteran: Pearl Harbor, I said they bombed Pearl Harbor in ’41. I was at home then. It was in ’42,
I went to the Army.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: I thought you was talking about the bomb.
Interviewer: No, no. That comes later.
Veteran: I heard about that after I got out to the Army.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. Now, when the war started, did you expect that you would have
to go in the Army? Or did you think that because you had a family to take care of and
everything else, they’d leave you alone?
�Veteran: Well to tell you the truth, I just didn’t really think nothing about it at all.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you notice other people getting drafted or going off?
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now when they drafted you, how did that work? Did they send
you a letter? Or…?
Veteran: Yeah. Well see, I lived right there in the town, and so I passed the draft board—I was
ready to hit the draft board.
Interviewer: Oh Okay. So, you are right there anyway…
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah, and so you—
Veteran: So, they just knowed—they didn’t have to send me the letter, they just called me
because they all knowed.
Interviewer: Alright, they said “Hey Will, you’re going in the Army now.”
Veteran: They called me and then they gave me a piece of paper then I read it. It said what time
to be at the, you know, draft boards.
Interviewer: Okay. Where did they send you for the first part of your training?
Veteran: Fort Benning, Georgia.
Interviewer: Okay. And then how did they get you to Fort Benning?
Veteran: On the train.
�Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: From home, I caught the bus to Jackson, Tennessee. Then from Jackson, Tennessee, I
had to catch a train to Fort Benning, Georgia.
Interviewer: Alright, now this is 1940s, and the south is still segregated. So, did you have to
ride on the back of a bus or in a separate train car or…?
Veteran: Well you know that’s…A lot of folks said that but at that time, at Tennessee, I had
never rode the bus.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I never went nowhere. Whenever I’d go, I just sat wherever I wanted because I never
rode the bus.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: You know, I have heard a lot of people talk about that but…See in Crockett County, in
Tennessee, you know I heard stuff said like Jim Crowe? I never experienced it.
Interviewer: So, this is just sort of small towns and small communities and people know
each other…
Veteran: Yeah. Well no, I wouldn’t say they love each other, I just say I never experienced it. I
don’t know what the other folks did. Around my hometown, most of the people, they knowed
me. Lot of them said I did every a good self. (00:07:08)
Interviewer: Alright. Okay.
�Veteran: Because I did, I guess I like this example. The white people raised my daddy. Well, in
that town, I would help, you know, I didn’t care if you were white or black. I just didn’t see
color, I see person. I don’t care what color you is. If you’re nice, I would be nice. But if you
wasn’t nice, I wouldn’t be nice.
Interviewer: That makes sense. Alright, okay well now you’ve gone and joined the Army.
Now… and you get to Fort Benning, and what happens there?
Veteran: Well I said and then they sent us down to Cusseta, Alabama [actually Georgia].
Interviewer: Well, talk a little bit about the training at Fort Benning. What did you learn
there?
Veteran: Well I said you do infantry training.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: You learn how to shoot a gun, lay out at night and sleep in the blankets and things. Just
Army… (00:08:10)
Interviewer: Okay. And then, they also have to teach you how to follow orders and how to
march and those kinds of things?
Veteran: Oh yeah. Well, I got most of that after I hit—they didn’t teach you much. Would take
us to camp south of Alabama. That way before you returned, you had main training. At Fort
Benning, Georgia they just—you didn’t get around just keep your upside, you didn’t just sit
around in the bed. But the captain said at Alabama, they start doing the real training. You know
you lay out at night and sleep in the shelter there. And I tell you…And then we got to Texas,
then they issue a rifle. Then they make you have—you go to bed at night, you keep your rifle in
�bed with you. You could move but if they caught you moving without your rifle, you got extra
duty.
Interviewer: Do you know where you were in Texas?
Veteran: They said west Texas, but I forget what camp it was.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, there were a lot of camps. So there is Fort Bliss in El Paso, or do
you think you weren’t that far over?
Veteran: Well, all I know is that we were right outside Abilene.
Interviewer: Okay, so—
Veteran: I don’t know what name of the camp.
Interviewer: Alright, well there were a lot of them so…Actually no, somebody researching
that could look that up and they’d figure that out.
Veteran: I told you it was around Abilene, Texas.
Interviewer: Okay, now were all of the men—was this an all-black unit that you were
training with?
Veteran: We had a couple of—we had a guy named Elwood Lorett—we had a couple of white
guys. Well, let’s say it like that. When they come to the state, they settled as white. But see they
Frenchmen. When they back in France, they settle as Africa. But see now, what they was, I don’t
know. (00:10:10)
Interviewer: Alright. But the Army itself was segregated, so you would get put into an allblack unit?
�Veteran: Yeah, I would say so.
Interviewer: Okay. Now the people who were—now the drill instructors as they were
training you, how did they treat you?
Veteran: Well they were…they was black.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: We had the captain, and most of the lieutenant, most of them was all white. But they
didn’t train you.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: The first sergeant and the sergeant and the staff, all of them would train you.
Interviewer: Mhmm. Okay, so the non-coms were black. The non-commissioned officers,
the sergeants and the corporals, those were all black.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay, so they were training you. Now, how did they treat you?
Veteran: Well they was really nice, and like I said, in the Army I wasn’t really that nice because
I was trying to get a dishonorable discharge. But I said, they treated me nice. We had a few little
frictions but I say…they had me a couple of times but I’d say I had good sense.
Interviewer: Well, what were you doing to try to get a discharge?
Veteran: Some orders, I wouldn’t follow.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: Like if they put me on extra duties, some I’d do, some I wouldn’t. And they said “they
going to put you in the guardhouse.” And I said “I don’t care.”
Interviewer: So, did they put you in the guardhouse?
Veteran: No, they wouldn’t. I said the captain asked me…I was corporal of the guard and I had
an apartment in town, so when you go out at 5 o’clock in the evening, you can’t get off until 5
o’clock the next evening. But, when I took my meal off a guard at 5 o’clock in the morning, I
asked him for his sergeant. I had an apartment in town, and there was something I wanted to go
get. And I asked him, “Could I go?” And he said “No.” I told him I was going anyhow. So he
told the captain. The captain called me into the office, and I went in the office, saluted him. He
says, “Did you tell the sergeant you going to town?” “Yep.” He said, “Don’t you know you could
be court martialed?” I said, “Yep.” He says, “You going?” “Yep.” “If I gave you a pass, will you
go and come back and make a good soldier?” “Yep.” I just wanted an hour but he gave me a 12hour pass. But I was going in the house. (00:12:50)
Interviewer: Okay, sure. That’ll help. Okay, so maybe you were actually good at your job?
Veteran: Oh yeah, I’d say.
Interviewer: Okay, now when you were in Texas, were you now training as an engineer
unit?
Veteran: No, truck driver.
Interviewer: You were a truck driver at this point, okay.
Veteran: I got pitched so well. I trained down there as a truck driver.
�Interviewer: Okay. But were you now training with the unit that you had served with
overseas? Or had you not joined them yet?
Veteran: No, no.
Interviewer: This is just general training still?
Veteran: When they sent me to Alabama, they take so many—after you train at this for 18
weeks…I forget, however…Then they bussed us up. They put you where they think they need
you. You know, you didn’t—I’d guess I was in about 5 different outfits. The last outfit was the
end of the year one when I went overseas. But I went from infantry training to truck driver
training. Then I went for that big gun. The ringing, I don’t hear so good.
Interviewer: Okay, so you had artillery training?
Veteran: What?
Interviewer: Artillery training then?
Veteran: Yeah, 155 millimeter.
Interviewer: Yeah, those are big guns. (00:14:12)
Veteran: Yeah, so that’s the reason I don’t hear so good.
Interviewer: Okay, now do you remember where you did the artillery training?
Veteran: Yeah, Camp Wilson, Louisiana.
Interviewer: Okay, that’s in Louisiana. Alright. Okay.
Veteran: And then from there, they sent us down to Camp—Camp Shelby, Mississippi, where
we took engineer training.
�Interviewer: Alright. Now, with the engineer training, what were they actually teaching
you to do?
Veteran: Build a—we had to, like I said, pontoon—you know what a pontoon bridge is?
Interviewer: Mhmm.
Veteran: And then infantry rafts and things. They teach you how to. In other words, we stayed
between the field artillery and the infantry so in Germany when they’d go put bombs in the
highways, you know, and mines. Our job was to clean out the mines. And we had a bridge
brought in on a truck. We put out a bridge—we’d have to blow up a bridge, then put our bridge
down and let the truck go by until we could get another built. Then we’d take our bridge up and
put it on the truck. You know.
Interviewer: And then do it again.
Veteran: That was our job.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Until I said we had to go up for reinforcements.
Interviewer: Right, but that comes later in the story.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, we are going to try to follow things in order. So, you are bouncing around
a lot in the west, from one camp to another, and one training assignment to another?
Veteran: Yeah.
�Interviewer: So, this would be going on probably through much of 1943. So, you’re
spending probably the better part of a year doing this?
Veteran: Yeah, because you had 13 weeks. At each place, you spent 13 weeks.
Interviewer: Yeah. And you’ve got about 4 different places, so.
Veteran: Until I was in Mississippi.
Interviewer: Right. Okay.
Veteran: So, when they…they sent one lieutenant down…one they had sent to Fort Benning
Georgia. I mean from Camp Wilson, Louisiana to Mississippi. They sent a lieutenant and said he
was training us to go overseas. So, we went through the 13 weeks of training. And at first, when
it got time to take a test, the first sergeant told us to flunk the test. He said if you didn’t—if we
didn’t flunk the test, we was going overseas. So, we flunked the test. So that lieutenant left and
they sent another, Captain Emerhoe. He looked like he was around 60 years old. So, the sergeant
said we had to go back over that same test. And he told us we could pass the test because he was
too old to go anywhere. So, when the test come up, we would all pass the test. Then a week after
we passed the test, they quarantined us. That means you couldn’t go nowhere. So, then we asked
sergeant “what’s the matter?” He said, “I don’t know.” In about another week, they said “You’re
going to Camp…Camp Shanks, New York.” He told us then, “Now we know where we’re
going.” (00:17:40)
Interviewer: Yeah. Because that was one of the main places for sending people over across
to Europe from.
Veteran: Yeah.
�Interviewer: Alright. Now, during the time when you are at these different bases, were you
always able to move around off base without any trouble? Was it—
Veteran: Oh yeah, we didn’t have no trouble. When we was in Mississippi, they issued us all
knives. And they told us men, two of you three stay together. So, MP—the police, the regular
police, couldn’t arrest us. (00:18:16)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: After one MP—we didn’t—they didn’t have nothing to say to us. So, they told us
you’re going over-seas, you may get killed, so don’t take nothing off of nobody. That’s the order
we got from the Army.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: Till… then the police didn’t mess with us, unless there was an MP with them. If the MP
with them, they can say something to us. But if the MP wasn’t with them.
Interviewer: But if anybody was going to arrest you, it would have to be the MP?
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Right, okay. So, okay, so they worked better than maybe most people think
they did. Okay.
Veteran: Well I heard a lot of people saying things went on in the Army that I don’t know
nothing about.
Interviewer: Yeah, well, the idea here is we want to know what you saw and what you did
and what you remember. So that, that’s good. Okay, now, so they send you now to Camp
Shanks, New York. Now, what unit are you with now?
�Veteran: 1697 Engineer Company.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you are now with your engineer battalion, and you have been
training with them in Mississippi and now you are moving as a group…Okay. What kind
of ship did they put you on? Was it just a regular transport? Or an ocean liner?
Veteran: It was the USS Bliss.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I ain’t got the picture but it…
Interviewer: Well, was it a really big ship?
Veteran: Oh yeah, it was a very big one.
Interviewer: Okay. Did you have—was it just your battalion on that ship?
Veteran: Oh no, there was a thousand of us.
Interviewer: Okay, so that…So it’s either a big Army transport or a converted ocean liner.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. So, a big ship. Okay, so in the meantime, when your ship sailed, were
you in a convoy? Or were you by yourself?
Veteran: No, my whole company, my whole outfit.
Interviewer: No, was the ship with a lot of other ships? (00:20:14)
�Veteran: No. Well it was, as far as I could see, because I said once you get on the ship, the ship is
so big, you know. But when you, when we got…After we left the dock, they let us come out on
the top. I could see two other ships, like a convoy, but I don’t know how many.
Interviewer: Yeah, but that would be part of a convoy, because you wouldn’t see that many
of them at once.
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: But if there were other ships there then you had an escort.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay, do you remember what the weather was like when you went across the
ocean?
Veteran: Well the weather was good, if you could say, how the water with the waves flying, if
you could say that is good. But it wasn’t raining or nothing.
Interviewer: Alright. Do you know what time of year it was when you went over? Was it,
you know, when you got over to England, was it warm or cold?
Veteran: It was kind of cold.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You’d have your cold days. I would say it was in the fall of the year.
Interviewer: Okay, that makes sense. Alright. Now, when you were crossing the ocean, did
you ever have any…Did you have any U boat scares?
�Veteran: Yeah. Yeah, a lot of them. Because the ship we was on, the motor went bad and all
those other boats went up and they left. Loaded up about two of those little U boats, and they
would take them…Because they said one time that they came on the ship that the Germans was
trying to tow the main boat. And them little U boats, they were like ducks, going around.
(00:22:05)
Interviewer: Yeah. But those—
Veteran: And then they would drop those ash cans over the back.
Interviewer: Okay, so they left a couple of escorts with you, and they were protecting you
against the Germans. Alright, so you survived that.
Veteran: And after they got that motor fixed, what they said was “oh, you can’t go by what you
hear” they said. Then they, they said, they run into top knot then we caught back up, because we
took about a day or so to catch back up with them.
Interviewer: Alright. And then do you know, do you remember where you landed in
Britain? Did you land up in Scotland? Or did you land in the south—
Veteran: In England.
Interviewer: In England.
Veteran: Uffcott, England.
Interviewer: Okay. And what happens after you get there? Do you go to a camp or…?
Veteran: Well, we head back to a…Like a big place where the rich folks stays.
Interviewer: Okay. So, a big estate of some kind.
�Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And at there we was, they say 50 miles from London where the Germans were dropping
their rockets and…
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, we could, you know. They said we was 50 miles from there. I didn’t go, some of the
soldiers went but I didn’t because the Germans were dropping some of them rockets in London.
Interviewer: Okay. So now you are getting into 1944, because that is when they are sending
the buzz bombs in and all that. Okay. Now did you—and so what were you doing, what was
your unit doing at this place where you were staying? Were you training more? Or just
sitting around?
Veteran: Mostly we were sitting around. Well, we’d do a little but you know, most days we were
just sitting around.
Interviewer: Okay, and then did you get to go into any of the towns in the area or go to a
pub or something like that?
Veteran: I said I didn’t, but some of the soldiers I said.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay.
Veteran: They said we were 50 miles from…We was in Uffcott, England, and they said it was 50
miles from there to London. Some of the soldiers went. I didn’t. (00:24:06)
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: Because they said they were dropping them bombs.
Interviewer: Right. Okay, but did you go into the local town? Did you go into Uffcott or…?
Veteran: Well that, there ain’t no time.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: They have a little here what they call a pub, maybe one year. There wasn’t no town or
something like that. It’s a village. That’s what you’d call a village.
Interviewer: Right. Okay, so not a lot going on there?
Veteran: No.
Interviewer: Okay, now was it just your battalion that was on that base? Or were there—
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: It was just us out there.
Interviewer: Alright. And within that battalion, did you have a particular job? Or did you
just do whatever they wanted?
Veteran: Let’s see, I was…At the time, I was a Corporal. You had to go on guard, but you
didn’t—we didn’t do no kind of work.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: But you had to stand guard. Well, I didn’t stand guard, but I had to put people on guard
and stuff like that.
�Interviewer: Alright. Okay, and so then—but if the unit is actually doing engineer work, if
they are building a bridge for instance—
Veteran: That’s after we went into Germany.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: After they said the Germans broke through the American line, then we, after
reinforcement, then they sent us into Germany.
Interviewer: Okay, now—
Veteran: Then we started building, you know…
Interviewer: Yeah, then you go to work. Okay, now probably, given the timing of things
here, the big German breakthrough happened in December of 1944, and that was the start
of the Battle of the Bulge. And the Americans in fact sent a whole bunch of engineer
battalions in there as reinforcements. Okay, now do you remember—okay, how did they
get you across the English Channel?
Veteran: Through the ship.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And then there, right where we were, there were a lot of other ships that were sunk,
they say a lot of the soldiers were still in them boats. Of course, some of them we went through,
passed some of the ships to cross the channel.
Interviewer: Okay. And then, did you go into a harbor and get off at a dock? Or did you
land on a beach somewhere? (00:26:18)
�Veteran: On the beach.
Interviewer: Okay. Because they were still using Omaha Beach and places like that still.
Okay, and then when you land there, then how do they move you forward?
Veteran: So, we had our own trucks and things.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you just drove?
Veteran: Yeah, they got the orders and we moved. I don’t know what kind of orders they got.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: But our captain was in on them so went he said, and we went.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: Let’s see, we had, we didn’t have just one company. It was 1697 in that combat
battalion. So, we went by ourselves, wherever they sent us. We didn’t send with no other thing.
Interviewer: Right. So, they had, they split—the battalion has several different companies
in it.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: So, your company, with your captain, kind of goes by itself.
Veteran: Yeah, in a company.
Interviewer: Right. Okay, and so you drive across France and probably, did you stay in
France? Or did you go into Belgium? Or did you go straight to Germany? Or do you not
really know?
�Veteran: When we left Uffcott…After we crossed the English Channel, I don’t know where we
went!
Interviewer: You wouldn’t know where you were. Okay. Do you have an idea of how long it
was before you started to build bridges? Or how long it took you to get towards the front of
the line?
Veteran: Well, I said, after they got reinforcements, well I guess about maybe a week or 8 or 10
days, then we fell back and started doing that.
Interviewer: Okay. So probably what is happening is you are being moved up toward
where they think the front line might be, and if the Germans came that way, you would
have had to fight them. (00:28:04)
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, when you first went forward, did you have to dig fox holes or anything like
that? Or did you just camp?
Veteran: No, we didn’t. They should be done, but we didn’t dig no fox holes.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: I said it should be done, but we didn’t dig—I guess some part, some soldiers did, but
we didn’t, no.
Interviewer: Sure. Okay, so they weren’t, that—the Germans weren’t getting that close to
you then?
Veteran: No. See, we went to work. We went and relieved these guys so these guys could go up
to the front.
�Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, we were close enough to see the flashes from them guns and things but we wasn’t
exactly on the front. We left these guys so they could go up to the fight, until they could get
reinforcements, and we fell back.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. But now they have got you over there and now you start building
then. Did you spend most of your time building bridges, or were you doing mind-clearing
or…?
Veteran: That’s what we did, we cleared mines out of the street, we built bridges, and we cleared
mines. That was our job.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, the goal was to bring the ammunition and stuff through. We keep the road clear and
things.
Interviewer: Alright, now when your unit was building bridges, what were you doing?
Veteran: I said I was a guard. I had a .30 caliber machine gun.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I had a .30 caliber machine gun, the guy in the first battalion had a .50 caliber machine
gun mounted on to the back of the truck. I was in the second battalion and I had a .30 caliber
machine gun that was on a tripod.
Interviewer: Mhmm, yep, and so you were protecting…?
Veteran: The guys working.
�Interviewer: The engineers, yeah. Okay, so you didn’t have to do the heavy lifting?
Veteran: No, not me.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: I wasn’t big enough.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: I was very small back in them days.
Interviewer: Okay, now as you are doing this work, did you look around much at the
countryside? Or see anything of the people? Or…? (00:30:08)
Veteran: No, I didn’t.
Interviewer: Okay, you just—
Veteran: I couldn’t speak their language so I just didn’t.
Interviewer: So, you just didn’t. Now—
Veteran: A lot of soldiers did, but me, I just didn’t.
Interviewer: Okay, you just mind your own—Okay, now, you had mentioned before that
you had been married, you know, your wife had died, but you still had children at home at
this time?
Veteran: Yeah, I had one kid, and she was just all of 3 years old.
Interviewer: And who was she living with?
�Veteran: Well, I left her with my mother. But when I was going overseas, I got a letter from my
sister. She said she had her so…
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now did you—and did you write home very much, or did they
write to you? Or did you just…go away?
Veteran: They mostly wrote to me when they wanted something.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so now you are over in Europe, you are building bridges. Now,
when you started doing this, was it during the winter? Was it cold?
Veteran: Yeah, I would say it was winter in England. Yeah, it was cold.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. And then, did you move around a lot? Were you moving forward
regularly? Or did you stay in one area for a long time?
Veteran: I forget. We stayed in one little village until we get the work done. Then we move up.
We always moved up.
Interviewer: Okay. So, you keep moving forward and advancing.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright, and did they tell you much of anything about what was happening in
the war, or did you just…?
Veteran: Well, I said mainly—Me? Not me, I didn’t get any word.
Interviewer: Okay, so your captain might have known something.
Veteran: Yeah, yeah, they knew everything.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: The Sergeants the same but…
Interviewer: Alright. Now, were you normally—did you sleep in tents or in houses or on
the ground? (00:32:04)
Veteran: On the ground. We had shelter halves. I had a half a shelter and the other half, and you
put them together and you just…
Interviewer: Make a little pup tent. Okay, alright.
Veteran: Or sleep on the truck. Pretty much wherever you wanted to sleep, but you couldn’t
sleep in no house.
Interviewer: Okay, so you didn’t get to borrow somebody’s house to sleep there.
Veteran: Oh, no.
Interviewer: But some guys did.
Veteran: Well, the captain, he might have but we didn’t.
Interviewer: Okay, now while you were doing this work, did you ever get hit by enemy
artillery or aircraft? Or ever see any of that?
Veteran: Yeah. We were guarding an ammunition dump. Before we—when we first got into
Germany, well they had the little black out light on the truck, and they told everybody don’t turn
your light on, just use the little black out light. So, we traveled mostly at night, when we were
going on up to the front. And one night, some guy turned his light on and the Germans dropped
one, they said, this like personnel bomber. It hit close enough to the truck to turn the truck over
on one side.
�Interviewer: Okay, so maybe German artillery that shot at you or something?
Veteran: Yeah, I said after we got into Germany, we was camping in the woods and on our side.
Every night at 10 o’clock, there was a guy, I would come over…When you were talking
about…you know what I mean? We know the different sounds of every different plane.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: We knew when it was an American plane, we knew when it was a German plane. One
night, we got the truck stalled at…and a couple of them weren’t very nice so we called them Bed
Check Charlie. If you got a line going, he would turn the machine gun on and shoot at us. So,
every night, we’d be out, we’d hear the plane, so we’d say here come Bed Check Charlie. So, we
turned out all the lights. So, one night we got a truck stalled, and we had a light on, trying to get
the truck un-stalled, and he come over and turned his machine gun on the truck. (00:34:21)
Interviewer: Did he hit the truck?
Veteran: Well, didn’t, he shot at the truck but he didn’t—that, you know, he couldn’t keep it
from running, he just shot. So, they finally…We was on one side of the woods, and he was…But
we didn’t know that. But you know, every night at 12 o’clock, he’d come over. So, they finally
called him, I guess to—the whole outfit went off and left him. And they said he run out of petrol.
I guess he couldn’t run his plane no more and that got him mowed down.
Interviewer: Alright, so eventually, that’s not a problem. Alright.
Veteran: But he, every night, we had a little plane so we named him Bed Check Charlie.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now you are, you’re kind of working your way—Now, do you
remember crossing over the Rhine River into Germany? A really big river?
�Veteran: Yeah, I said when we crossed over, there were a lot of boats that sunk, and they said a
lot of soldiers were still inside.
Interviewer: Well, I think that was the English Channel.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: But then, when you go into Germany, the Rhine River is a major river that’s
inside Germany. And there were—that was an obstacle, a major obstacle when we crossed
it in March of 1945. But, do you remember crossing any really big rivers after you were in
Europe or not?
Veteran: No, I don’t.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: The English Channel was the biggest I’d known.
Interviewer: And then, as you are getting into the springtime and the Allied armies are
moving forward, you’re going to move forward, you’ll build more bridges. Did the scenery
change at all? (00:36:00)
Veteran: Yeah, I’d say. A lot of towns we went to…I remember in Stuttgart, Germany…And we
were building bridges in Stuttgart, Germany. One place when we was in Germany, like we was
in this little village and we had to go through another little village to build a bridge. It was
evening when you’d come back. They said that a squad of German prisoners was hid in the
building we went through, in the little village we went through. So, when they got back, on our
way back, they called the infantry in. They wanted them to wipe out the squad of Germans. So,
�we went through, I guess they was hid in the buildings. But when we come back, we had to wait
for them to get through fighting before.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now when you went to Stuttgart, could you see damage from
the bombing?
Veteran: Oh yeah. It was pitiful. There were kids on the road, asking for something to eat. They
was sleeping in them old buildings. It was pitiful.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I’d see kids peeking around, begging for something to eat. So, we’d give them a lot of
our rations. See, we had a C-ration.
Interviewer: So that was mostly canned goods and dried things and, yeah.
Veteran: Yeah, you had canned ration and C-ration. Sometimes, you’d get enough…So they
gave us a box for your breakfast and your dinner and your supper. You carried it with you. But
every night they would…As I said, a lot of the times, kids would be coming by, asking, what it
means in Germany, for essence. So, a lot of time we, the soldiers just gave them something.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, now did you also go through villages that were still in good
shape that hadn’t been bombed?
Veteran: No. (00:38:02)
Interviewer: Okay. So, you mostly saw areas that had been hit pretty hard.
Veteran: Mhmm.
Interviewer: Alright. And do you remember seeing any German prisoners of war?
�Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay, and what did they look like?
Veteran: Just ordinary white folks.
Interviewer: Okay, well did you notice if some of them were kind of older or younger? Or
you didn’t—
Veteran: Well, I’d say mostly younger.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I’d say after the war, after Germany surrendered, they sent us to Nancy, France. And we
stayed there about 10 to 15 days. Then they sent us to Le Havre, France. Then they gave us 100
German prisoners to put in a water line.
Interviewer: So, you’re going back, you’re doing more engineering work now?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: But you have German prisoners to work for you as laborers?
Veteran: Mhmm.
Interviewer: Alright. And what impression did you have of them?
Veteran: Oh, just ordinary people to me.
Interviewer: Okay. How did they behave?
Veteran: They just did whatever you told them to do.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: There wasn’t nothing, they didn’t raise no sail or nothing. A lot of them were like us, I
guess: glad it was over.
Interviewer: Yeah. Alright, and then at that point, now do you see more of the French
people now?
Veteran: I said, when we were in Nancy, France. After we left Nancy, France…But to tell you
the truth, I didn’t care for the French more than nobody else.
Interviewer: Okay. But I meant were there a lot of civilians around now?
Veteran: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Now, were the French doing any better than the Germans? Or, were they
hungry too?
Veteran: No, they had their own country I guess. They seemed to be doing…
Interviewer: Okay? So, there was a difference there?
Veteran: Yeah, they was a different race of people. See, over there, they call French African. In
Nancy, France, they called French African. When they come to the states, they’re called
Moroccan. I could never tell the difference. (00:40:05)
Interviewer: Mhmm. Alright.
Veteran: See, we had some in our outfit, called Moroccan in the States. When you get into
France, they’re called French African.
Interviewer: Well, the French had colonies in Africa, and so, including in North Africa,
including Morocco.
�Veteran: Yeah, well that was in Nancy, France.
Interviewer: Right, but they just think of you like the people from their colonies.
Veteran: I guess so.
Interviewer: Or something like that. And so, it was a little different. Okay. Now then you
said you got assigned Germans to help you work. And then, do you have a sense of how
long you stayed in France?
Veteran: Well now, I’d say I was there…Okay, when did the Japanese surrender?
Interviewer: That’s in August of 1945.
Veteran: Well, when the Japanese surrendered, we was a day from seeing the Pearl Harbor—I
mean, from seeing the Statue of Liberty. We was on our way back to the states.
Interviewer: Okay. So, they loaded you—they took you to Le Havre for a while, they put
you on a boat. So now, summer of ’45, you’re on your way home. Okay, now what happens
when you land in New York?
Veteran: They sent us to Fort McPherson, Georgia.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And we stayed there…They gave us a 30-day leave, and then they say they’d give you
three months jungle training. They was supposed to go—that’s why we left, that was our
assignment. But I say, the Japanese surrendered so we didn’t have to do that.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: We got a 30-day leave and we went back to the camp. Then they sent us down
to…Where I got discharged…What’s the name of the camp? In Georgia…
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: With Fort Benning on one side…
Interviewer: Okay, but it’s somewhere down in that area, but you are in Georgia and…
(00:42:07)
Veteran: Yeah. Alexandria, Louisiana. Fort Beauregard on one side of the town, and a camp on
the other side of the town.
Interviewer: Well at, Fort Benning, I think, is kind of close to the border between Georgia
and Alabama. There’s a river in between. Anyway, okay. But, basically, you get
discharged?
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: You get a leave home, and then you come back, and then you get a discharge?
Veteran: Mhmm.
Interviewer: Okay. So then, you probably are getting out of the Army in 1945. After the—
Veteran: No, after that. I got out in 1946.
Interviewer: Well, the war ends in August of ’45. And you were almost back to the states.
And then, if you’re not spending a lot of time any place after that…
Veteran: Well, I am sure they sent us to…We got back to the states, they sent us to Camp Shank,
New York—No, they sent us to…
�Interviewer: You went to Fort McPherson.
Veteran: Yeah, in Georgia somewhere. And we stayed there. We got a 30-day leave.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: We were back to camp. We hung around camp. I don’t know exactly how long. Then
they sent us down to Louisiana.
Interviewer: Mhmm. And how long did you stay in Louisiana?
Veteran: It was about the whole winter.
Interviewer: Oh okay. That would take it to ’46. So that’s where it wraps up, okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Now, when you were in Louisiana, did you have any work to do? Or were you
just sitting around?
Veteran: Mhmm. After we come back from overseas, after you got back to camp, you just sit
around.
Interviewer: Okay, now when you had that 30-day leave, what did you do?
Veteran: I went home to see my kids.
Interviewer: Mhmm, alright.
Veteran: That was my biggest thing. Most of my mind was on my kids, you know, I just.
Interviewer: Right. And did she know who you were when you got home?
Veteran: Oh yeah. (00:44:01)
�Interviewer: Okay, good.
Veteran: She knew who I was.
Interviewer: Alright. So, after you got your discharge then, what did you do?
Veteran: After I got my discharge, I went up—They didn’t pay me yet, see, when I got my
discharge. They didn’t give me all my money. And then they asked me to stay around Alamo.
They owed me $1040. They asked me to stay around Alamo. They sent me $100 a month. So I
got that. And then they had this thing called the GI Bill. So I signed up to go to school on this GI
Bill until I got all my money. Then I left to come to Benton Harbor, Michigan.
Interviewer: Okay. So, when you say you went to school, were you finishing high school?
Or getting a GED? Or?
Veteran: No, agriculture school.
Interviewer: Okay, agriculture. Okay so vocational school. Okay.
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright. And then, how did you wind up going to Benton Harbor?
Veteran: I went there to gather fruit. But after I got there…After I got there, I got working on an
asparagus farm, cutting asparagus. I didn’t like that job, so a couple of days and then I quit.
There was a guy there…He mowed the lawn and he killed chickens for the rest of them. And he
asked me would I like to work with him. 90 cents an hour and he gave me a place to stay. You
know, to live in the house with him. He had a wife and two kids. And I told him I’d rather do
that than cut asparagus, so I left with him. So, I went and lived with him and his wife. Every
�other night, I’d stay home and keep his little girls, him and his wife would go to the show. Next
night, I get the car and go where I want to go. (00:46:15)
Interviewer: Okay. Did you have your daughter with you or was she still with your sister?
Veteran: No. No, I didn’t. They wouldn’t let me have her. That’s the reason I didn’t stay around
home because…
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: See, she was about 6 years old then. You know, she knowed me but you know…It had
been three years and so. And I think two families can’t raise no kid. Like if she asked me to do
something, I say yeah but they may say no, see. And I couldn’t hurt her like that so I just told
them they just take her. Wherever I’m at, if she needs something, let me know. You know I
wouldn’t doubt that they’d have tried to raise the dead for her. And so, I just left, come to Benton
Harbor, Michigan. And then after I got there, then after I started staying with him, then I would
work in flower yard for people. Then one lady asked about trimming trees and things for the
flower yard, and so. I didn’t say anything. After we left, he called me to tea and said if we had
done that job, we could have made money. And I told him well, I know how to trim trees. So, we
went around, bought all pf the equipment. He bought all of the equipment. Then before long, we
started trimming trees all summer. When the snow started falling, then I left and went to Benton
Harbor, Mich—I went to Cleveland, Ohio.
Interviewer: Okay. And what did you do in Cleveland?
Veteran: I run an elevator, a freight elevator at a paper company.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you eventually settle down into a job, a long-term job?
�Veteran: Oh, well…
Interviewer: Or did you just bounce around a lot? (00:48:08)
Veteran: I just bounced because I worked there all winter. Spring come, my mama asked me to
come back down. I had a baby brother. He got himself into debt or something, she…Well. I’ll
say it like this: I am a little odd kid in the family, you know what that is. My mama, bless her
soul, if she wanted something did, I am the fifth child. If she wants something did, she’ll call me.
But when I get it done, she want me to move out. That’s the way I was raised. There was ten of
us kids, but I was just the hardball in the crowd.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, did you eventually get married again?
Veteran: Oh yeah, I’d say about…I got married. I say, I went back home. I stayed there three
years until I got him out of debt. Then I come to Chicago. Then I got married in Chicago.
Interviewer: Mhmm. And what were you doing in Chicago?
Veteran: I worked at the paper company. I worked there 18 years.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Then I left that, come over here. And I worked at Ottawa Steel 18 years, before I
retired.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, when you look back at the time you spent in the Army, do you
think you learned anything from that or if it did you any good later on?
Veteran: Well, what do you mean by it?
Interviewer: How do you think your time in the Army affected you?
�Veteran: Well, I guess…I guess, I don’t know it affected me any kind of ways. Because I said
most of my mind was in just getting back to my kids, you know, and whatever I had to do, I just
did it you know. So, I don’t think it hurt me nowhere. It taught me to be more ornery or what.
Most of the time, I look back and say… (00:50:34)
Interviewer: Alright. So, you were the same man when you came out—
Veteran: Yeah, it seems.
Interviewer: --then you were when you went in?
Veteran: You know, because I say mostly, I don’t know if you people can understand it or not
but I say you go off leaving your 3-year old child, and she had never spent time with nobody but
you and her mother. And you go off and leave her. You people don’t know how that hurt. So, my
mind was just—I say when I first went with the Army, I did everything I could think of to get a
dishonorable discharge, but after I found out they weren’t going to discharge me. I just did what
I was supposed to do.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, did you learn anything about different kinds of work or
equipment that helped you later? Or, did you already have all the skills you needed?
Veteran: That’s what I was going to say, I didn’t do nothing in the Army I thought that. I mean, I
didn’t do nothing in the Army.
Interviewer: That’s right, you had the machine gun.
Veteran: Except drive a truck. When I went to the Army, I didn’t know what a spark plug was.
But they sent me to schools, teach you all about how to maintain a truck and everything.
Interviewer: Alright.
�Veteran: And the big gun, 155 mm. I didn’t know nothing about them. But I say, after I got out
of the Army, then I, the only thing I worked in was on cars. I went to mechanic school, and
after—Well, I finished mechanic school right there in Letit and Bold. You know they used to
have it out there? I finished mechanic school out there.
Interviewer: Mhmm. (00:52:18)
Veteran: So, I worked part-time, working on cars. Also, I worked at Ottawa Steel, but as a
hobby, I worked on cars too.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, I went to welders school. In other words, everything that Uncle Sam paid me to go
to school for, I did it.
Interviewer: Okay. So, maybe that’s the one thing you got out of the Army?
Veteran: Yeah.
Interviewer: Uncle Sam paid for some school.
Veteran: I finished barber school, agriculture school, I finished welding school, I finished
mechanic school. Long as Uncle Sam paid me, I did it.
Interviewer: Alright, sounds good.
Veteran: But also, I worked. I said, I worked at Ottawa Steel out there on, you know where that
used to be? Out there on…What used to be out there? You know where Ottawa Steel used to be?
Interviewer: No, I don’t but…
Veteran: Let me see…
�Interviewer: Was it close to Grand Rapids, or…?
Veteran: Yeah, right on the line.
Interviewer: Alright, well.
Veteran: I got to think of that street. It was right where the border of Comstock Park and Grand
Rapids join.
Interviewer: Okay, that would be out on near Alpine Avenue area.
Veteran: Yeah!
Interviewer: Okay, very good.
Veteran: It used to be Ottawa Steel. Half the plant was in Grand Rapids, half the plant was in…
Interviewer: Some part of Comstock Park, okay. (00:54:03)
Veteran: I worked there 60 years before I retired.
Interviewer: Alright. Well, it makes for a very good story, so thanks for taking the time to
share it today. (00:54:13)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_HoltonW2098V
Title
A name given to the resource
Holton, Will (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-02
Description
An account of the resource
Will Holton was born in Crockett County, Tennessee, on January 19, 1919, and was likely drafted in either late 1942 or early 1943. After Basic Training and advanced training, Holton was then sent to Camp Barkeley, Texas, for trucker training, and was then sent to Louisiana for 155mm artillery training before winding up at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, with the 1010th Engineer Company. Holton was then assigned to the 2nd Platoon, A Company, 1697th Engineer Combat Battalion and was deployed to Europe, supporting the ground troops during the Battle of the Bulge in late 1944-45. He guarded the other engineers while they cleared mines, opened supply routes, and built temporary bridges, continuing this construction work in France after the war. Holton later returned home and was discharged in 1946.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Holton, Will Thomas
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
World War II
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8594c172309ea1e69f49201101d736f8.mp4
c9e4a9f798dc7bb79ba847665999e62c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1b9e35a3c0bfba4628a8cbd8517fb769.pdf
1101c78e2fd9301735d5f77ae1319c86
PDF Text
Text
Hodges, Terry
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: Vietnam War
Interviewee’s Name: Terry Hodges
Length of Interview: (58:23)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler
Interviewer: “Okay, Terry. Begin with some background on yourself. And where and when
were you born?”
I was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. January 1st, 1948.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you grow up in Baton Rouge, or did you move around?”
I spent my whole life in Baton Rouge up until the graduation from high school, and then I went
to college at Hammond, Louisiana at Southeastern Louisiana University.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what did your family do for a living when you were a kid?”
My mother was an executive secretary for the Department of Conservation for the state of
Louisiana. I grew up with three brothers, and we all grew up in our grandfather’s house. My
parents divorced when I was six, and Mother never remarried.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then when did you graduate from high school?”
1966.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then where did you go after that?” (1:00)
I went to—on a football scholarship to Southeastern.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then how long did you stay there?”
I was there three years, and that’s where I was at when I was drafted.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now was it a four year school?”
Oh, yes.
Interviewer: “So you had another year left. So how was it that you came to be drafted?”
I went there on a football scholarship and always wanted a vehicle of my own. So after my junior
year of spring training, I dropped out of school. Went to work. Worked the rest of that spring and
�Hodges, Terry
that summer because I wanted an automobile for my senior year. And worked, made enough
money, bought a car. Used car, but my car. And was actually back at school. Football practice
always started—two a day—on August the fifteenth. And I was there for approximately a week
practicing football and got a draft notice. (2:05)
Interviewer: “Okay. Now what did you do once you got that notice?”
Well, I’d been drafted.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you request an extension or anything, or did you just do what they
told you?”
I just did what I was supposed to do, I guess. Is how I felt about it.
Interviewer: “All right. So where did they send you for basic training?”
I went to basic and advanced infantry training both at Fort Polk, Louisiana.
Interviewer: “Okay, so relatively close to home anyway.”
Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now describe the basic training experience. What was that
like?”
Regimented. Getting up earlier than I was used to getting up. But it wasn’t a bad experience. I
mean, I was physically active all my life, so it wasn’t any kind of physical problem or mental
problem or anything like that. Just went through basic.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. How did the drill instructors treat you?”
Okay. I still recall my drill instructor for our barracks was—Sonny we called him. But he was a
really nice guy. Fairly young fellow. But got along with him fine. As a matter of fact, in basic, I
was one of the guys in—for whatever reason—I was elevated to barracks leader. You know,
platoon leader, what have you.
Interviewer: “Well, you were maybe a year or so older than a lot of the guys there.”
Yes, I was, and I was somewhat more proficient in the athletics of it.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah. I mean, football player, so yeah.”
Yeah, but see, I didn’t realize that that was not a good thing for me at the time. I should have
been saying, “Hey, I love to type,” and things like that. So I wasn’t the brightest bulb on the tree
at that point in time.
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Yeah, but they kind of wanted a lot of infantry men at that point, so I don’t
even know if that would have helped you.”
I agree, I agree.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so you get through it, and how long was the basic training?”
I think it was six weeks. I believe that’s what basic was.
Interviewer: “It’s usually eight.”
Okay, eight weeks. That’s probably—You know.
Interviewer: “Yeah, but not all that long in the whole.” (4:05)
No, no.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then you stay then. And then for your advanced
training, is that infantry training?”
Yes. Yeah. At Fort Polk.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how was the advanced training different from basic?”
Well, weapons were involved. You know, becoming acquainted with the M16 and the .60 caliber
machine gun. Going to firing ranges instead of just going on long walks, so to speak. And, of
course, it was geared toward getting you prepared. Everyone knew that pretty much—that we
were going to be going to Vietnam. So that was the end of ‘67.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Now did they make any effort to teach you how to deal with the
Vietnamese themselves? I mean, do they have a mock village or anything like that?”
I don’t recall that. No, I do not. Now I do recall that we were introduced to a Vietnamese fellow
who was a sapper as they call them, and he was showing off his skills as far as stealth and what
they were capable of doing and so on. I remember that. Other than that…
Interviewer: “But nothing about the society or the people or…?”
Oh, no, no. There was nothing that I recall. It was primarily geared toward, you know, patriotism
and being the best soldier you could and so on.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and just how to function as an infantryman in the field.”
Exactly, exactly. Be the best soldier you could, which would give you the best chance of being
successful.
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were a lot of the instructors Vietnam veterans?”
I believe they were. Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now did you have any sense of who the guys you were
training with—where they were from or why they were there or…?”
They were from all over. There was a large contingency from New York that were in my
barracks. (6:02) But there was a lot of people that were from Louisiana. Palled up with a guy
from Port Allen, which is across the river from Baton Rouge. Ronnie Gisler. We became good
friends. Also met a fellow named Browning. Robert Gwinn Browning who actually ended up in
Vietnam with me. He was my bud, you know. So you make relationships and go through, but we
all kind of enjoyed all of the rappelling and firing weapons and so on.
Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah. So at that point you’re still kind of playing soldier for the most
part.”
Yeah. There was an ominous overtone always, but, well, there was a reality that was there. But, I
mean, I grew up—I was a Boy Scout. Had always spent time in the woods. So it wasn’t that
foreign to me. Some of these guys from New York—It was quite a bit of culture shock for them.
Interviewer: “All right. How much did you know about Vietnam at that point?”
Other than the fact that we’re involved in a very bad—what I thought to be a very stupid war…
Interviewer: “Okay, so you had an understanding that maybe the war wasn’t such a good
idea.”
Oh, I knew for sure it wasn’t a good idea, and I knew for sure that there were people that were
getting killed or maimed that—for what I thought were fairly political reasons. And I’ve always
held that belief. And I always had the realization that once I had got drafted, that, boy, I had
really messed up. And actually my brother—one of my younger brothers—ended up getting my
car. So I did a lot of that for nothing as it turned out.
Interviewer: “All right, so you complete AIT, and that’s probably the same length of time
as the basic was.”
Yes. Yeah, I think so. I think so.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, and then do you get orders for Vietnam, or do you go
somewhere else first?” (8:01)
No. In typical army fashion, there were—I don’t know—twenty something guys, I think, in the
entire company that had signed up to go to NCOC School at Fort Benning, Georgia. Shake n’
Bake school. And they took thirteen or fourteen of us that had not signed up and sent us. And I
don’t think any of the guys that actually signed up actually went. Got orders to go. And we were
�Hodges, Terry
somewhat apprised of what Shake n’ Bake school was all about and so on. And Ronnie Gisler
from Plaquemine hadn’t signed up as well, but he was sent also. And so we were, of course,
flying out of the same airport. Going to Fort Benning to start Shake n’ Bake school. They flew us
up. We arrived there on base on a Friday, and the school actually started on Monday. So once
you got in and got settled in, they actually gave you a weekend pass. So we went into town and,
of course, do what young men do, you know, in a town you’re not familiar with. We hit all the—
every bar we could and so on. And Ronnie and I both decided that we had no desire to go
through NCOC School. So we reported back in, you know, Saturday evening. Sunday evening.
And the first formation on Monday morning Ronnie and I went up to the attic in the barracks and
hid. And they had the formation. We could hear them. They were right outside in the company
area, and they were looking, you know.“Where’s Hodges? Where’s Gisler?” And everything.
And we were just sitting up there saying, “I ain’t going to do this. I’m not going to do this.” And
so they ended up getting everybody there in formation, and they marched them off. They were
going somewhere, you know. I don’t know. But when they left the area, we came down into the
barracks, went in through the CO’s office, and he said, “Well, y’all missed the first formation,
you know. You’re going to be—It’s not necessarily court-martialed, but you’re going to be
busted. Back to E1.” And he said, “At E1 you can’t go through this school.” (10:17) So we said,
“Mission accomplished.” That was great, you know. But then we got—Shortly after that, we got
orders for Vietnam, which is where we knew we were going to go anyway. So when we got to
Vietnam, we were automatically made E3 again because I don’t think you could be in country
without being at least a PFC.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah. That was a standard thing. Now why did you decide you didn’t
want to do the NCO training?”
What I—What my belief was was that it was a very serious place, and I didn’t think—from
everything I had heard—that NCOC—Shake n’ Bake sergeants weren’t that well thought of.
Didn’t necessarily know exactly what to do. And I didn’t want to be in that position. I just—I felt
if I were going to tell men what to do that I should—I should go through it first, I guess. And I
did not think that a pretend NCOC School would prepare me to do that. I just didn’t—I didn’t
think it was right to show up over there and start telling men what to do when I wasn’t apprised
of what actually was happening. So that’s the reason that Ronnie and I both decided not to go
through it. We were the only two that didn’t go that particular day.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Of course, it was—I think you’re the first people I’ve ever heard of
who were sent to NCO-School when they didn’t actually sign up for it. So that wasn’t a
normal circumstance to be in.”
No, we did not sign up. We did not. We did not.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Did you get a leave home before you went overseas?” (12:01)
A few days, yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. And then—And how do they get you to Vietnam?”
�Hodges, Terry
Flew to—What base was it? I don’t really recall.
Interviewer: “Did you go to Seattle?”
It could have been Fort Lewis.
Interviewer: “Yeah, Fort Lewis, Washington would be—If you went up there, that’s where
you went.”
And then went from there over to Cam Ranh Bay.
Interviewer: “Okay. What’s your first impression of Vietnam when you get there?”
Hot, hot. The day I arrived—Went out on the steel tarmac. It was 114 degrees, and you could see
the heat waves coming off the tarmac. So it was—It was quite warm.
Interviewer: “Even for a man from Louisiana that was a little—”
It was quite warm.
Interviewer: “All right.”
Yeah, it was hot.
Interviewer: “Okay. What did they do with you once you get off the plane?”
You got off the plane with your duffel. Well, you got issued your—you know, your gear and
stuff like that. And then they started calling people’s names and assigned you to a company. I
think I was in Cam Ranh for like two days. Got my orders to report to Delta Company. 1st of the
506.
Interviewer: “Okay. In the 101st Airborne Division.”
101st Airborne, yes.
Interviewer: “All right, and then how did you get up to join them?”
Helicopter to the rear at Camp Evans, and then they later—Helicopter again out to Firebase
Kathyrn.
Interviewer: “All right, and so when was this that you got out there?”
Early June. It was early June.
Interviewer: “Okay. Early June now of 1970. All right, and then when you join your
company, what kind of reception do you get?”
�Hodges, Terry
Cordial. Nice. I mean, people were, you know—They were helpful. Got my first squad leader.
Was Randy Beek who I thought the world of. Really nice guy. Concerned about people. And got
issued a bunch of gear. (14:08) What have you. But the—And then you’ve got to get into the
flow of things. The very first job I was given was to burn a bucket of shit. So that’s the first thing
I did on Kathryn. Was to mix fougasse in with a pile of shit and burn it. That was my first job. I
guess they figure if you’ll do that, then you’ll probably be responsive if they ask you to do
something else.
Interviewer: “Well, yeah, that and you’re the low guy on the totem pole, so you get the ugly
job.”
Exactly, exactly. And you’ve got to realize that.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now how long did you stay on Kathyrn before you moved out?”
We weren’t there probably another three or four days, and we rucked up and we’re sticking to
the jungle.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you walk out, or did they fly you someplace else?”
No, they flew us out. They flew us out.
Interviewer: “Okay. Had you ridden in helicopters—except for the trip up?”
No, no.
Interviewer: “Okay. This is all new. And then that first trip out in the field. Do you
remember anything about that?”
No, it was rather uneventful. It took me—When I first stood up with my full gear on, full sack, I
remember I was thinking to myself—And I was in fairly good shape. And I said, “Man, there’s
no way I’m going to be able to walk around with this on my back.” I mean, my legs were
wobbling almost. But by the third day I was hupping with the best of them. As a matter of fact, I
was starting to—I walked point. And I walked point for most of my time over there.
Interviewer: “Okay. Walking point is something a lot of people don’t always want to do.”
I wanted to watch after my own butt. I didn’t want somebody else watching. Plus, it—There’s an
added benefit if you walk point. You don’t have to carry as much ammunition. So there was an
ulterior motive as well.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now you said you had—Growing up, you had spent a lot of
time in the woods and that kind of thing. Did that sort of help you at this point?” (16:03)
�Hodges, Terry
I was acclimated to the woods. Not so much thick jungle, but I had always loved being in the
woods. Became a Life Scout. Always hunted and so on. So I was quite comfortable in the woods.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now at this point, sort of—Now it’s June 1970. Were you
encountering many enemy? Did you have much contact, or was it quiet?”
No, no. Nothing prior to that day. That was the first interaction with an enemy that I had.
Interviewer: “Okay, so before that—And this is getting into the latter part of July when
you’re sent out to the Ripcord area, and your company gets in trouble. So before that,
basically are you just patrolling in the jungle? And how long would you stay out if you’re—
When they take you out, would you be out for a few days or couple weeks or…?”
A few weeks. It got to be the routine that we were out for forty-five days or thereabouts, and then
back in the rear for seven. There were a couple occasions during the monsoons where we stayed
out much longer than forty-five days because they just couldn’t get to us. Everything was socked
in.
Interviewer: “Okay, and so when you’re out there, what would be sort of a typical thing to
do in a day? Were you usually in the jungle areas, or…?”
Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so you have stayed someplace for the night. You get up in
the morning. Now what happens?”
You put your sack on, and they tell you which direction they want to go in that day. And you
start matriculating that day.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now would the company usually operate as a unit, or would you break
down into platoons?”
We would break down into platoons more often than not. (18:00) The company didn’t do
anything that I recall as a single unit going in one, you know—Everybody went in the same
direction, but we were—We weren’t one after the other for 125 men or something like that,
which, I guess, tactically didn’t make any sense.
Interviewer: “Okay. Well, I guess the other thing would be were the platoons within
contact of each other and able to support each other.”
Certainly. Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, and so now who was your company commander at
that point?”
Workman.
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Okay, and how would you describe him?”
I didn’t have a whole lot of contact with him. You know, as far as captains go, I guess he was
just fine.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you see more of your platoon leader?”
Yeah. LT Thompson. I thought he was a great guy. He was a great guy.
Interviewer: “Okay, and about how large was your platoon?”
I don’t really know. I really don’t know. We had what? Four squads? Probably ten men per
squad so thereabouts. I didn’t pay attention to a lot of that.
Interviewer: “Well, a lot of times a lot of the units were pretty badly under strength. Now
maybe when you came in, did some other new guys come in with you?”
Oh, yes, yes. I think, as a result of the conflict in May, they were undermanned. So there was—
Yeah, there were several people. Browning and I both were put in the same platoon.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. All right, so initially—And so, I guess, then—So you’re—You
basically—You’d advance. You’d go to wherever you’re supposed to go to. And what
would you do at night if you’re out in the field?”
You always set up an LP at night, and nobody enjoyed doing that. But you took your turn.
Interviewer: “LP being a listening post?”
Listening post. Other than that, you spread around. If it were possible to dig a hole, you dug a
hole. If not, then you just made do with what was available to you and try to protect your
position. (20:12) And hunker down and go to sleep.
Interviewer: “Okay. When you first went out in the field, did you keep thinking there were
RAD guys out there, or did you hear things? Or were you jumpier, or were you just…?”
I knew I was in a war. I mean, I knew that there were people out there with bad intention. And
you try and steel yourself to that, but I didn’t—I didn’t give it a whole lot of thought. I just knew
that it wasn’t going to be pleasant. It was my job to take care of myself and everybody else that I
could, and if something were to happen, then to—It’s time to man up and do your job.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you’re moving through the jungle, would you go on trails,
or would you make your own?”
No, we tended to stay off the trails because there were booby-trapped trails, and so we learned
very well—I was taught very quickly that your best avenue through the jungle is to make your
�Hodges, Terry
own way through the jungle, which, of course, makes for very long days because it’s thick, and
everything gets hung up. And it’s hard, and it’s hot. And it’s humid, and it’s pretty miserable.
But that was—That’s what we did, day in and day out. Always tried to do my job as point man
looking where I was supposed to look.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when you’re point man, about how far would you be ahead from
the next man behind you?”
Not that far, but then, if you’re in triple canopy jungle, you’re not going to be very far away from
anybody. There’s just—It’s not like an open trail where, if somebody’s lagging back a little bit,
you get a little space in there. Everybody’s kind of trying to—And you’re punching a hole so
people can follow, but everybody gets hung up. (22:07) So there may be spaces at times, but they
always close it up. So I wouldn’t say very far away at all.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now did you have rules, especially when you were camped?
Light discipline or noise discipline?”
Oh, yeah. No, you didn’t make any unnecessary noises. You know, that’s common sense, I
guess.
Interviewer: “Would people smoke in the field?”
Sure. Sure, they would, but you always cup your cigarette. You don’t ever light a cigarette in the
open. You know, you used common sense about that.
Interviewer: “Yep. Okay. All right, and how much food would you carry or water?”
Six canteens I think it was. Maybe sometimes a little bit more. As much food as you could stuff
in your sack. I remember getting—Sometimes we had a resupply with a whole case of food, and
that was great. And you carried all of it, but then you’re also responsible for carrying your own
ammunition. Sometimes you had to carry extra .60 ammunition for the M60, so, you know, it
was about an eighty-five pound sack on your back.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you—What did you do with the C-Ration cans or things like
that? Your garbage, basically. Did you have to bury that, or did you take it with you? Or
just leave it?”
We just left it. I mean, we weren’t overly neat about that or anything. We did. I guess there were
times when we buried it. I don’t think it would stay buried. I think the critters—As soon you’d
leave, they’d go dig something up, you know, because they would smell it. But no, we didn’t.
We certainly didn’t carry it with us. You’re always trying to shed weight.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you have a Vietnamese scout with you?” (24:01)
I’m sorry?
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Did you have a Kit Carson scout?
Yes, yes. I did. I did. As a matter of fact, mine walked slack for me sometimes.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now some of those people were actual ex-NVA or Viet Cong and knew
what they were doing, and others seemed to be staying out of the South Vietnamese army.
Was this guy actually good at his job?”
He seemed to be. Seemed to be very conscientious.
Interviewer: “If he’s walking slack with you, that says something already, I guess.”
Yeah, well, it—No, he was—He was concerned about what he was doing. He always seemed to
be doing his job. And then I told him. I said, “If somebody ever shoots me and it’s your fault,
I’m going to shoot you.”
Interviewer: “Okay, so you spend about a month and a half or something like that out
there—been patrolling around—or maybe, I guess, like June and into July. And then, while
that’s going on, the siege of Firebase Ripcord is getting more complicated, and the more
and more NVA are concentrating around that. And then your company is sent in.”
We were sent in from the rear from Camp Evans.
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, and so, well, tell me about that expedition. You get the orders to
go out. Now what happens?”
We kind of knew this was not going to be good. I had heard that actually our captain, Workman,
had volunteered us for this even after another company captain had declined to take his company
in there. So we knew this wasn’t, you know, an ideal thing to do. And as we—And leaving the
firebase. Everyone was pretty tense about that, I think. I was. I know I was.
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were the more experienced guys acting different, too? Because
the young guys—You hadn’t really been in anything big yet, but the older guys would have
been in firefights and things before. Did they seem—”
Well, I think it was probably the older guys that were telling me, “This is not going to be good.
You need to really tighten up.” (26:13)
Interviewer: “All right. Okay, so you head out there. Did you take fire as you went in,
or…?”
Yes, we did. We did. They were firing on us as we were landing. All the birds. And, of course,
it’s a known fact if they’re shooting at you when you’re landing, they don’t care if you know
they’re there or not, which is not the norm. Normally, it—I mean, if they’re around, they don’t
want you to know. But if they let themselves be known like that, that’s not a good situation.
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Okay, and then do you recall where you’re—You had a string of helicopters
come in to bring you in if you’re coming in on Hueys. Do you know where you were in the
string or how far back?”
You know, I don’t really recall that. Probably the third, fourth bird. I know that we were told that
the birds would definitely not be sitting down. They’ll be getting you close to the ground, and
when they yelled, you jumped. And it was a pretty good jump.
Interviewer: “About how high up do you think you were?”
Probably six, eight feet.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. You hit the ground, and now what do you do?”
People were yelling, “Over here, over here! Move, move, move!” So we moved in that direction.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then that day now do you get into any actual—any other action,
or do things quiet down after you land?”
Things did sort of quiet down after that. And we were at landing zone, and we started moving
down a finger in the mountain to set up. And it was not early in the day. It was more afternoon,
so we started trying to set up a night position, which is the first thing that we did. (28:05) Our
platoon there. And when you’re setting up a position, of course, the first thing you—Once you
decide that, you know—The powers that be decide we’re setting up here. My squad went out
from our perimeter to do a recon of the area. So we were—started going out so far, and I was up
front. And I saw smoke off to my left, and I knew—Didn’t know if it was a spent shell or what,
but we radioed in and said we were going to go make our turn now and go check this out. So we
did. It was nothing. It was a spent shell. And we reconned all the way around the left side of our
perimeter. And we came back to 180 degrees, and then we came back in the back side. The other
squad—Another squad went out, and they were to—responsible to cover the right side. And I
don’t know whether they just hadn’t set up yet because they didn’t know where we were setting
up. Whatever reason. The second squad out got hit. They got ambushed. And that’s when my
good friend, Browning, got hit. Little Bit. Patrick DeWulf. Got hit. Several guys got hit. So that’s
when it all really broke open and started. (30:00) It was bad, and we could hear them down there
screaming, you know. We didn’t know what was going on. So I—For whatever reason, I said,
“Well, I’ve got to go see if I can get to Browning. Get to Little Bit.” So I got on my belly and
started going down the finger, and a .60 caliber machine gun was firing over my head. Got a
little too close, so I screamed back, “Get the fire up!” You know. “You guys!” From here to the
camera I had a sixty round hit, and I said, “Get it up.” And I said—And they did, you know. But
I went down. And going down, going down. And I found Browning who was dead. I don’t know
if he had—I don’t know what happened, but his—All of his stomach was gone. He was
definitely dead. We had support—air support—that day, and the jets were doing their ordinance
down there. And they had knocked trees over. A tree had fallen on top of Browning, and I could
not get him out from underneath it. Couldn’t stand up. So I got his dog tags and his wallet and
personal stuff and started to go down some more. And I heard Little Bit again, and then I heard
rapid fire. And that was that. So I made my way back up to our perimeter. And we ended up
�Hodges, Terry
staying there that night. No. Excuse me. We didn’t. We moved our perimeter because we were
getting chewed up. (32:06)
Interviewer: “Were you being hit with mortars or with small arms fire?”
Small arms. Our own grenades. At least, we figured they were our own grenades. RPG. So we
moved up past the LZ up onto—higher onto the finger of the mountain, and that’s where we
stayed the night. It got—For whatever reason, there wasn’t that much going on that night. I
mean, you didn’t sleep or anything. And right at very first light—It was dusk, and I remember I
was—For whatever reason—I don’t know. But I was cleaning my weapon. Because I was firing
it the day before, and I said, “Well, you better clean it quick.” And I almost had it all the way
back together, and we started hearing boop, boop. And we knew mortars were coming in. So I
slapped my gun together, and I recall a mortar round hitting in front of me. It did not go off
through gravel and dirt and everything, you know, on me. But I was on the ground anyway. But
it didn’t go off. But a lot of others did. And they knew exactly where we were. They knew—
They didn’t miss a single shot, I don’t think. Normally with mortars, you try and adjust. They
were right on from the very first one. So we were up and getting off that—getting off the
mountain, and I remember seeing—Of course, we were trying to pick up the guys that were
wounded, hurt, or worse, and get them down to the LZ. And I remember, you know, there were
quite a few people that were very physically messed up. But we got down, and that’s where we
formed our perimeter again. (34:10) And fought through the day. I don’t know about the other
guys, but I found that they had trees there that had big wings that would come out for roots or
whatever. And I found a hole in the—in between the wings, and we had a lot of ordinance from
people that we’re not going to use it. And I put claymore mines out in front of me, and I put—I
had ample supply of grenades. And if you wanted to come at me, you better be getting down,
you know. But we fought through the day, and, of course, we took casualties through the day.
And they would attack at one side, attack at another side.
Interviewer: “And when they’re attacking, could you ever actually see them?”
Yes, yes.
Interviewer: “Okay. How close were they getting to you?”
Thirty yards, forty yards. Something like that. And you’d take them out, you know. There
seemed to be a lot of them, so…
Interviewer: “Okay. Now were there at this time—Now I think we’re talking here kind
of—This is about July 21st, 22nd because I think you were pulled out the day before they
pull out of Ripcord itself if my chronology is right. So it’s about that point.”
We were pulled out that next day. Yeah, that morning. Later that afternoon we were—As a
matter of fact, Workman said, “Buddy up. When dark comes, try and slip out into the jungle.”
Then they would have birds patrolling the area for the next few weeks trying to find you and pick
you up. (36:04)
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Okay, so you were actually expecting to have to disperse into the jungle.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Now had there been—Because there were efforts to bring in helicopters, and
they were having some problems with that.”
Yes, they were having large problems with that.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what do you know or recall, or what did you see of that?”
We were told—And it was late in the afternoon, and we were told the Ghost Riders were coming
in. And I have utmost respect for those guys because they knew they were going to get chewed
up. They were, you know, the first birds in the previous day. They already had everything zeroed
in, so they knew they were going to get chewed up. And they came in anyway. And first bird got
out. Was taking fire. Everyone was taking fire. I ended up being on the third bird out, and then
the next bird they shot down. And that’s where—To my memory, that’s where Captain
Workman caught the prop—the blades—and was cut in half. But I was on the third bird out.
Interviewer: “So you got out of there.”
Entirely fortunate to.
Interviewer: “All right. Now the—Did the—Was part of the company left behind and stuck
there until the next day, or did they all get out eventually?”
No, I think they all got out. They left bodies. They left—I’m sure they left a lot of ordinance, but
I think most everybody got out. I think three or four helicopters were shot down.
Interviewer: “Because there’s a point where C and D companies of 2/506 come out to help
with the evacuation and that, I think, was after you left.”
Yeah, we were gone. We were gone. (38:09)
Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. Now through all of that did you get hit?”
No, no. To my recollection, there were thirteen or fourteen of us that were not wounded.
Interviewer: “And that was out of the whole company that—”
That was out of the entire company. Yes.
Interviewer: “All right, so once you get back to Evans, now what happens to the
company?”
�Hodges, Terry
There was a colonel, general, somebody—Came in and told us that they didn’t want us sitting
around and dwelling on what had happened and that they were going to send us right back out to
the—And they sent out back out to Firebase Kathyrn, and then we got started getting new guys
in, you know, in subsequent days. But we did not stay in the rear.
Interviewer: “Okay, and do you think that wound up being a good thing for the
company?”
I don’t know.
Interviewer: “Well, how did the men react to all of that?”
I think they would have liked a little time just to be able to commensurate with each other. To
talk things out. And we did somewhat on the firebase, but it—That was, as far as firefights go—I
was in several firefights, and that was by far, in a way, the worst day I would encounter in—
during my tour or duty over there.
Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now how long do you think you stayed on Kathyrn before
you went out in the field again?” (40:03)
I guess a week. Maybe two weeks. I don’t really recall to tell you the truth. I know it took them
probably a week or longer to get back into that area to get the bodies out. And Browning’s wife
had requested that if he were killed that I accompany the body, which I didn’t know about. But
we were off the firebase, so it had to be several—you know, a few weeks that we were on
Kathryn. And we were actually back out in the field, and we were actually involved in a firefight.
Nothing like that day. But they sent a Loach out, and I was up firing and, you know—and so on.
And they crawled up to me and said, “Hodges, that bird’s for you.” And I said, “Really?” And he
said, “Yes.” And I said, “Well, then I’m out of here. I’m gone. I’m going to wish you guys luck.”
You know. But went and got on the bird and never will forget. He went straight up in the air
hundred or so feet and just buzzed the treeline all the way down. It was—And it was great. I was
getting in—But he took me straight to Camp Eagle, I think, where they took my weapon, ammo,
you know, all that type of thing. And then I—They—I got on a—I guess the C-130 went from
there to Cam Ranh, I think, and from Cam Ranh—And I still hadn’t—We’d been out in the field
for almost two weeks, three weeks, and I hadn’t bathed or anything. (42:16) From there I went to
Osaka, Japan. Browning’s body—Turns out was already back in the States, and they were trying
to catch me up to the body. And actually put me on a commercial flight out of Osaka. Not having
bathed or anything in a few weeks. But I would say the people on that plane were just—They
were marvelous. They were very, very, very kind people. Flew from there to the West Coast and
then from the West Coast all the way over to Dover, Delaware, which is where Browning’s body
was.
Interviewer: “Right. Did you get a chance to change clothes or bathe or shave along the
way anywhere?”
Yeah, in California. In California I did. Or it might have been not until Dover. I don’t really
remember. I remember getting my patches and all that kind of stuff in Dover, so now I’m not
�Hodges, Terry
sure. And then took a truck ride. Browning was from Georgia, and we took a truck with his body
in the back from Dover, Delaware into his hometown in Georgia for the funeral.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what—Was anything running through your head through all of
this, or were you…?”
No, I was just bone tired. I mean, I was just really tired. I was really glad to be where I was. I
was not happy at all about why I was there. I thought it was all a total waste. I always thought
everything over there was a total waste of some very good men, but I met some outstanding men
there. (44:01)
Interviewer: “Had you ever met Browning’s—his wife?”
No.
Interviewer: “Okay. She just heard enough about you that…?”
I think Browning and I talking one time—I think we kind of made this deal that if something
happens to me, I’m going to ask your wife, and if something happens to you, you know. We kind
of made that pact. But we were probably sitting around drinking beer, and you know how that
goes. But after that my wife flew up to Georgia and met me, so I was able to spend a few days
with her before I had to start matriculating back to Vietnam.
Interviewer: “Okay. While you were in Vietnam, how much contact did you have with your
wife?”
Well, we were out forty-five days, and then one night of the seven days we were back you would
stand in line and wait for the MARS Radio. And they would place a call, and you got to talk to
her for fifteen or twenty minutes or five or ten minutes. Whatever it was. But that was the only
contact that we had other than letters. Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah. All right, so—But now you’ve got to go back to Vietnam, right?”
Correct.
Interviewer: “Okay. Was that just something you accepted you had to do, or…?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Yeah? Okay, so…”
But my wife became pregnant, you know. So that’s—And that’s my only job. So my daughter
came out of Browning passing away.
Interviewer: “All right, so now you head back out again. When you rejoin your unit, where
are they?”
�Hodges, Terry
They were back on Kathyrn, I think. I think they were. They might have been in the rear. I think
they were in the rear. (46:03)
Interviewer: “And has the monsoon started yet, or was it still dry at that point?”
It was still dry at that point. The monsoons were—Well, I don’t know. I think the monsoons had
just started because it was very wet in the mountains. I remember that I had a very hard time the
first day getting up and down the mountains. I remember that. Wading through a little river. I
remember falling face-first. My legs weren’t underneath me again at that point in time, but that
didn’t take long either, so…
Interviewer: “Okay. Now in these later months was there much contact with the enemy, or
were they largely gone?”
We didn’t have too much action after that. Little skirmish here and there. Maybe a sniper.
Something like that. But nothing anywhere near, you know, the episode in June at Ripcord. So it
wasn’t that bad, and not too long after that I got my drop of two weeks and processed out.
Interviewer: “All right. Now while you were in Vietnam—let’s see—did you ever spend any
time in areas where there were civilians, or were you always out in the field someplace?”
No. By the time I had gotten on the 101st Airborne Division, we had been banned from the city
of Huế, which was the largest town. You know, a very large town in Vietnam as far as Vietnam
goes. But no, they were—They wouldn’t allow us in the town anymore.
Interviewer: “Okay, and there were not really civilians in the hill country where you were
operating.”
No. No, there weren’t. It wasn’t like the lowlands where you had farmers and so on. No. Saw
very few civilian people. (48:14)
Interviewer: “Did you see any of the South Vietnamese military?”
No. Not that I recall.
Interviewer: “Yeah, so it was really just largely Americans, and you had your, you know,
Vietnamese scouts or whatever.”
Chiêu Hồi Scout and up and down in the mountains constantly.
Interviewer: “All right. Now there are a variety of stereotypes about Vietnam and what
happened there, and so we’ll ask about that just to see what you think of them. One of
them has to do with drug use. I mean, was that something that you were aware of or saw
any of?”
�Hodges, Terry
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. When we were back in the rear, blacks got really involved with heroin.
I would smoke pot. If it weren’t illegal, I would smoke it again honestly. But mostly just drank
beer. Alcohol. You know, hard alcohol.
Interviewer: “Now when people were out in the field, did anybody smoke anything, or…?”
No, absolutely not. That’s a good way to get lit up.
Interviewer: “Okay, and in terms of just sort of racial issues and so forth—”
Well, I say no. I was talking to Dale Tauer earlier, and there were occasions where people were
smoking out there, but I did not.
Interviewer: “Yeah. It seemed to have happened occasionally. It just—”
Yeah, obviously so. I wasn’t aware of it.
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that’s kind of what I’m asking. Okay. Yeah, and
another issue has to do with race relations and things like that. And in the rear did the
blacks and whites kind of segregate themselves, or…?”
Yes, they did. Yes, they did. (50:08) Blacks thought they were being entirely persecuted and
fodder. Meanwhile, some very good white guys were getting killed, and I didn’t see the
distinction.
Interviewer: “All right. Now in the field, if you had black and white soldiers out there
together, did everybody work together?”
Yes. Yeah. It actually—Toward the end it actually got to the point to where the black guys
weren’t actually going out into the field, which I didn’t—I thought a large degree of that decision
was because they—The most of them were starting to have drug problems, but I think it was also
that the army made a conscious decision. They reacted to pressure. Political pressure. That the
blacks were being disproportionately maimed and killed, so they allowed them to stay out of the
field, which I wasn’t really happy about. Understatement. I wasn’t happy about it. Yeah.
Interviewer: “All right. Now did the army make any effort to encourage you to stay in?”
No, they did not. They did not.
Interviewer: “Okay. In fact, you get an early out. Did they just offer that to you, or did you
request it?”
Nobody ever mentioned it to me. I got to Fort Lewis, Washington and just processed out as
everybody else did. Nobody ever came up and said, “Hey, we’d like for you to re-enlist,” or
anything, which would have been a large waste of their time, effort, and energy. But no, they
never did approach me about that. (52:08)
�Hodges, Terry
Interviewer: “Yeah. At that point, you’d had enough time in service. They were starting to
let people out early on a fairly consistent basis, so I think a lot of other guys went out in a
similar deal. If you had been in long enough, and you had put your year in at Vietnam,
then…”
That was—That was it. Yeah. I had put about a year in prior to that. Eleven months, sixteen days
days over there, and they were more than happy to let me go home. And I was more than happy
to go home.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what did you do once you got out?”
I went back to school. Went back to school. Actually, when I got out, my daughter was only
seven days old. And, of course, we resided in Baton Rouge. My football to my college—My
football team—My head coach offered me my scholarship back. I had one year remaining and
also another year of being the student, you know—the coach. You know, the assistant—Not
assistant coach, but—To work with the program for another year. And my wife said, “You either
go back to school there, or you be a dad.” So I stayed home and was a dad.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you find a job?”
Yeah, I went to work for Mabel. I went to work for the—It was, what? Southwestern Bell at the
time, I guess. Installing telephones and climbing poles and doing that sort of thing.
Interviewer: “Okay. Did you have any trouble readjusting to civilian life?”
No, but that’s not me. I kind of—Just like I didn’t have that much trouble going into the army, I
just—“That’s where I am. I’m going to make the best of this. Do the best I can.” And I didn’t
fret over a whole lot. (54:20)
Interviewer: “Okay, and once you were back, I mean, would you talk to anybody about
Vietnam, or…?”
No. No, I did not. Had no desire to do that. I didn’t think they would understand. I’ve got three
brothers. Never really discussed it with them. My marriage, you know, fell apart, and I ended up
going back to LSU and finished school. So it’s kind of roll with the punches, I guess.
Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Did you stay with Southwestern Bell, or did you go on to
other things?”
No, I went on to other things once I graduated. Actually, I quit working for Bell when I went and
I started the GI Bill to go back to school and had a part-time job. And one of my younger
brothers and I shared an apartment, so it worked out.
Interviewer: “Okay, so what kind of job did you wind up doing then after you finished?”
�Hodges, Terry
I ended up in marketing, so I got a sales job with old Sperry Remington when they had actually
dealerized about that point in time. And the fellow that was given the state of Louisiana—I went
to work for him in the Baton Rouge office. Eventually transferred to the New Orleans office and
then back to the Baton Rouge office. But I was thirteen years with him.
Interviewer: “All right. Now to kind of look back on things, how do you think your time in
the service affected you, or what did you learn from it?” (56:06)
I already knew how to play with weapons, so I didn’t learn that from them, I don’t think. And I
enjoyed the bigger guns and the explosives. I enjoyed fooling with that. I didn’t really learn a
whole bunch as far as—You learn about things you don’t want to know about. I learned about
war. I learned about the human capacity for sacrifice and, I guess, a lot of bad odds to do what, in
your mind, says you’re supposed to do. People caring about people. It’s probably the one thing
that I’ve gathered from getting back with these guys just for the last two years. The last two
reunions. Is that they’ve filled in a lot of pieces of what went on that bad day, but it’s also—We
also have a camaraderie that you’re not going to find anywhere else, and we’re also
commensurate with the fact that there was some really, really good young men that were wasted.
And you feel a loss about that, but then you also feel very fortunate to have reconnected with
them because they’re some great guys. They are just truly great guys. Feel about them more—
I’m not one that has a lot of friends. Don’t need a lot of friends. Never wanted a lot of friends. I
consider each and every one of them a true friend. And I’ve got a few of them back home, you
know. But that’s who I pal with. That’s who I play golf with. My circle’s not that large, but it’s a
good circle.
Interviewer: “Yeah, well, it is certainly a good group of men here. I’d just like to close up
by just thanking you for taking the time to share this story today and help fill in another
piece of it.”
I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you, Jim. (58:23)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_HodgesT2281V
Title
A name given to the resource
Hodges, Terry (Interview transcript and video), 2016
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-02
Description
An account of the resource
Terry Hodges was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, in 1948. He graduated high school in 1966 and attended Southeastern Louisiana University for three years before he recieved his draft notice. Hodges attended both basic and advanced infantry training in Fort Polk, Louisiana, and rejected then opportunity to attend Noncommissioned Officer Candidate School at Fort Benning, Georgia. He was then sent to Vietnam in 1970 where he was stationed at Camp Evans and then Firebase Kathryn with Delta Company, 1st Battalion of the 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne. He remembered his unit coming under fire during the siege on Firebase Ripcord after which his unit suffered heavy losses. He also had to accompany his friend's body back to the U.S. for the funeral in Georgia. Having served eleven months and sixteen days in Vietnam, Hodges was eventually given an early-out in April of 1971 and returned to his home in Baton Rouge.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hodges, Terry Lynn
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b6848d882890e7fe158bdaf32be7e144.mp4
abf68dc163b456c00ec37afc0685de5e
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d56e62990df10e9f1450cb574697342e.pdf
d2d22fe1941cf6754aa58a42378bcf06
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Raymond Hines
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Christopher Kroupa
Interviewer: Alright now we’ve gotten to the point in your story where you’re working with 2nd
Battalion of the 506th, you’ve been talking some about Colonel Lucas, the battalion commander,
and you were heading out to a firebase called Gladiator,
Veteran: Correct,
Interviewer: Okay now what, roughly when was that?
Veteran: *laughs*
Interviewer: Well was Ripcord, Ripcord, we already established…
Veteran: We were, we had not gotten that, we had not established troops on Ripcord at that
point,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Okay, Ripcord was still, we had had people up there and got run off,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And that had happened twice,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: At that point,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: I think twice, I don’t know
Interviewer: Okay so now we’re kind of in early April 1970 before the people actually march up
to the top,
Veteran: Correct
Interviewer: And set up, okay,
Veteran: Yes
�Interviewer: So pick up the story then from there
Veteran: Well, not much more, we, they built the TOC there, I didn’t like the TOC, I didn’t like,
when you’re building a TOC, when you’re, when you’re building a structure, a TOC, it was a, a
bunker if you will,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the steps going in were from the uphill down, the way they had it they didn’t
actually have steps, they had, it was like a funnel going down into the TOC,
Interviewer: Was this on Gladiator or was this on,
Veteran: This was on Gladiator,
Interviewer: Yeah okay,
Veteran: And eventually I'm sure they got it straightened out but at that point they didn’t have it,
and I didn’t want to spend the night there okay, for me that’s a funnel when, mortars come down,
mortars come relatively straight down, they hit a funnel they’re gonna follow it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That goes right into the TOC, didn’t have a blast wall, didn’t have basic things that to
me were basic,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and I don’t remember where I slept but I didn’t sleep in there that night, they
were upset with me and so, that’s okay,
(2:00)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The next morning they went back to the rear and took the showers and came back out
and I was going to go back to the rear but nothing ever came. I sat on the pad for a while and
they came back and I was rather upset but, which led to me being replaced,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Yeah, I was upset, anyway, the next day Colonel Lucas had me come with him and we
went back to the rear and we talked to my commander and, I got to talk to my commander,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: It was, he was gonna replace me and he did, he had another captain come in,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Andahe, Ray Williams,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: My boss, the S3 advised against it because it was a rough area but anyway he sent me
back with this guy and I was gonna train him into my job and when I was happy he was able to
do it, then I was to come back to work with the S3,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we were there for a day or two I don’t know, several days and it became apparent
to me that I didn’t have enough time in country and that’s what I told my boss, I said sir I don’t
have enough time in country to get this guy back to where he ought to be,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, but anyway I turn my stuff over to him and, and we went, I went back to the
battalion headquarters, assistant S3,
Interviewer: Alright, and so are you, is this at Camp Eagle or Evans?
Veteran: Evans,
Interviewer: Okay, you’re in Evans, alright,
Veteran: So I'm back at Evans, and assistant S3 assigning fires that kind of stuff,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Not much happened, same, same kind of thing happened,
(4:00)
Interviewer: But did you, were you aware of Ripcord being set up or what were you,
Veteran: I'm aware of it but I wasn’t out there,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Now you’re talking on the phone, on the radio,
Interviewer: Right,
�Veteran: Radio contact,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: With people you weren’t, wasn’t out there,
Interviewer: Yup
Veteran: Wasn’t flying around,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: So I was aware that being set up and I was aware of assigning fires and the whole thing
but, not, nothing specific,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: After a while, after a while we had the incident on fire support base Henderson, where
the brigade commander Colonel Bradley and his S3, Major Tex Turner, the artillery liaison
officer, Captain Hopkins, Fred Hopkins, and the Sergeant Major and I think his name was Long
or Longest,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I'm not, I'm not sure of his name but they went in there and they were hit with a mortar
round and the Sergeant Major was killed and Fred was wounded, he had a bad wound on lower
leg, and was basically medevacked, that would have been the third of May I’ve been told,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t remember dates, but that, that happened apparently on the third of May, and if
you read the, Hopkins, Chuck Hawkins wrote an article for the VFW,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I believe it’s for VFW about Ripcord, he left out the artillery officer totally,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I confronted with him, confronted him with that during this meeting, he said well I
probably left a lot of people out and the significance of him leaving that out is that Fred was part
of the party,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: That came out with Colonel Bradley,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: So, leaving him out is significant,
(6:00)
Veteran: whereas if he’d been out there as part of the artillery out there, it would be coincidental,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, same round that killed, that killed the Sergeant Major wounded, wounded
Fred,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I went over there and it was right after it happened so it would have been probably
the fourth of May, they sent me over there, and then I, I was the Artillery Liaison with the third
brigade until I rotated back to the states, well I left and I can’t tell you exactly when, perhaps
three or four days before so somewhere probably the twenty-forth, the twenty-fifth of May,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: I'm guessing I don’t remember correctly,
Interviewer: Alright
Veteran: I know the day after I left, the day was, was, it was one year exactly, twenty-nine May,
and I left,
Interviewer: Okay, now were there any other kind of significant actions or things that went on
that you were providing support for or was it just mostly small or routine engagements?
Veteran: Well we, it was, you’re, when you’re dealing with the Brigade Commander, you’re at a
different level or course,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: I don’t know I wasn’t following as closely what was happening on Ripcord,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I know that was going on and that was a big part of the entire brigades’ efforts,
Interviewer: Right,
�Veteran: I do know we went back to Brad, to
Interviewer: Henderson?
Veteran: Henderson, and I was explained what happened and pretty much the same story over
and over again, but went back there, it was, its secondhand knowledge and I could tell you what
they said which is slightly different then than the version I hear going around,
(8:01)
Veteran: But, nevertheless, it essentially alright, then we, we had a, an insertion, I'm not sure
what we were gonna do but it was in the Co Chien River, there was a sandbar in the edge of the
river and we’re flying around and they decide they wanna put and insertion right there on that
sandbar, and I'm trying to find an artillery, do an artillery prep, it’s out of my normal amount of
range with not communicating with the regular artillery battalion, so I ended up having to find
somebody to do that, I think pretty sure the ARVN’s did that out of, out of Dong Ha or
somewhere up there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t really remember what happened that, when they did artillery prep is, they blew
the sandbar away, so they had to land on the, the banks of the river, it was just right by the banks
of the river anyway,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They, they did that getting serious okay,
Interviewer: I wonder why you would insert on a sandbar, not sure what that would accomplish
Veteran: Who knows, I mean who knows if there's mines on it, who knows anything about it,
Interviewer: Yup
Veteran: And to do an artillery prep, maybe it was a, anyway the artillery prep blew it away,
Interviewer: Yup,
Veteran: So it wasn’t an issue anymore,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Let me think was there anything else that happened, I don’t, I really, it was really fairly
routine,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Colonel Bradley was fixing to leave and he was talking about leaving and going back to
Maine, turns out he didn’t go back to Maine, he went to Florida and became a real estate mogul
or something and, Tex Turner, I don’t know what, I know he went to the, to the Ranger school
for a while he was coming out of the Ranger school, I don’t know what else he did,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And he’s retired now and last I heard he was in, in Virginia
(10:00)
Veteran: And we, near Williamsburg somewhere in there,
Interviewer: Alright, so now you’re heading out of Vietnam,
Veteran: Out of Vietnam,
Interviewer: Where do you go,
Veteran: We go, alright so my, I'm in Vietnam and I go to Camp Eagle, I flew down there, report
to DIVARTY, and you’re processed out and you get on a truck to go to someplace else and
maybe Da Nang,
Interviewer: Probably Da Nang if it’s a truck,
Veteran: I don’t really remember, I remember going and it’s kinda a blur,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But we went down the road, one thing I do remember, there were some other, there
were some NCOs who were on the same truck and the NCOs were talking to oother NCOs and
talking about how they, they were too old to have been in the field you know they were just too
old, they're probably near thirty,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, thirty to me is not old, thirty is rather prime, but and I'm thinking to myself it
probably had something to do with that yellow strip down your back rather than your age,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Nevertheless, I didn’t say anything and we went on, we got down there and you had to
report in and when, I left out of Cam Ranh Bay, and we went to Cam Ranh Bay and I, you had to
show up for the manifest, if your name was called you went on and processed out whatever the
�rest of it was, and so but you showed up for the next manifest when the next plane was coming,
so I had some time, I went over the sand, sand dunes and went out on the beach in Cam Ranh
Bay, it was pretty neat,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You could walk probably half a mile only to be wait deep in the water, very shallow,
came back made the next manifest and came home,
Interviewer: Alright now,
Veteran: Flew, flew to Osaka Japan I don’t know why we went there but,
(12:00)
Veteran: That’s where we were, you know if the duty-free shop bought some stuff for my wife
and,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Came on and we went to Seattle, SeaTac,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We were processed in and we walk into this room and an NC, E6 NCO comes in
wearing a, this right shoulders to his left shoulder, he’s got this hundred and first patch, he starts
giving us this stateside verbiage that, y’all a lot of, hate to think think cause it irritates me every
time I think about it, I wanted to go home,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t want any trouble and I want to go home, this guy starts with this, this verbiage
talking to officers and everybody else about we had our sleeves rolled up and in stateside you
don’t roll your sleeves up okay, so we’re in out jungle fatigues but we got our sleeves rolled up
like we do, yeah okay, all he had to do was tell us we’re to roll them down and I'm just come
back from a combat zone and I really wanted to kill a person, alright that’s what I really wanted
to do,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Or at least give him a punch or two, but I didn’t do that so we get processed out, so how
you treat people and they weren’t treating us very well, you were treated better in Vietnam, it, it
made a difference in Vietnam I mean you have to say that, anyway I got a flight home and, and
came back home, my next assignment was Fort Sill, I went to the artillery advanced course there,
most of the, I knew a lot of the captains, we’d been together,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: In Vietnam so, let’s see Ben King was there,
(14:00)
Veteran: Ben Phillips, Quigley, Mark Quigley, and feels like there were one or two more,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I’d been with in Vietnam, we’re in the same advance course class and got through that
and I was assigned to, I went to 3rd of the 7th, eight-inch howitzer artillery in, in Nuremburg
Germany,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Which was probably a mistake, but it was, you look back and see it’s a mistake and you
don’t see it looking forward,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They’d been deprived during the Vietnam era because everything went to Vietnam,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And so things were not in great shape and the commander was not a great commander,
he was a helicopter pilot, when I got there Patton had just been on there, Patton the, they have a
lot of small bases around Major towns or they did at that era, and so a movie would go into one
and go to the next one and the next one and you know, anyway Patton had just been on that base,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the Colonel and, and the ma-, XO, his Major it was, his, shadow, shadows a good
word right,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: His shadow both had swagger sticks, okay you can imagine this now right,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They got swagger sticks and he was an interesting tour,
Interviewer: What was the attitude of German civilians toward Americans at this point? And this
more radical,
�Veteran: They didn’t really care much for us,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was, they were tolerant,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Mostly tolerant,
(16:00)
Veteran: Sometime while we were over there, they were making a movie about Hitler in Munich,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the actor who was playing Hitler walked down the street and people stood and
saluted, I know why, okay,
Interviewer: Wow
Veteran: Now, that wasn’t everybody, but it was interesting,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was interesting, anyway we got by fine there was, there was some attitude, overall,
we got, one of the problems, actually one of the problems you have, we had in Germany was that
the people speak English,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We didn’t speak much German, so you end up learning a little GI German, where did
we live there, let me think about that, first time, the second time, I have to sort through where we
lived,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Because I was there, the first time I was there was in Wurzburg,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We started out, started out in, on the economy, then we moved, I started out, started out
in the upstairs, an upstairs apartment from a German, it was about twenty miles away from, from
base,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I mean it was a fairly long drive but it’s what you could find, if the Germans, Germans
like to rent to Americans because they would move on,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Germans once they rented, they had a more or less a contract, until they got ready to
move,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So in a sense they like to do, anyway we get, we did that and then I had another
apartment, I found another apartment and the landlady didn’t like our little dog okay,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: She was afraid of dogs, she did, they’d use dogs against them some, she’d seen that
happen somewhere during the war,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(18:00)
Veteran: Anyway, so we ended up, ended up moving to a different apartment and we were there
for a while and then, didn’t plan on going into quarters but we were offered quarters and we did
go in and lived on base there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was about a couple of blocks from where I worked, a lot more convenient, didn’t
have to worry about the heat, I mean,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Everything’s covered,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: So I was in, we were in Merrell barracks and Merrell barracks was built by Hitler to,
Nuremburg Germany, too, for the SS troops to control the crowds during the Nuremburg Rallies,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And he had, he built it out of brick, it was built out of brick, well-engineered, it was
built to be faced with marble later,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Because you had deep windows that were faced in marble and they were gonna face it
later with marble and of course that never happened, in the chapel they still had decorations and
chapels still had swastikas around the edge of the floor,
Interviewer: Uhm
Veteran: Well you say uhm but swastika is an ancient symbol,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Of good luck and then you can find those in Jewish temples,
Interviewer: Yeah, you can find then in the oven
Veteran: Yes, so it, but that was there so it was a Nazi symbol
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: And that was Merrell barracks, it was an interesting place it was not a terribly great
tour, but it worked out,
Interviewer: Okay, what, I don’t what’s the caliber of the enlisted personnel that you had, we’re
kind of getting into that post-Vietnam era,
Veteran: Well we were, I was, it was post-Vietnam for me, but Vietnam was still going on,
Interviewer: Still going on, but we were
Veteran: People that were there who were still a draft army,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Still had a bunch of people and the drug culture was coming on,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Brought on probably initially in Vietnam but they had, we had problems
(20:00)
Veteran: With it over there, we had no tests for it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Cause this is before you could test for, for marijuana or any other drugs,
Interviewer: There’s a point when heroin becomes a real problem and its,
Veteran: I don’t know when heroin become a problem, but I know we had everything that, we
had more than just marijuana,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: But everything started with marijuana,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And you’d get fresh kids in and they would, oh I'm gonna be straight I'm gonna be
straight, you get them in and, and the three weeks later they were smoking pot,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And it was the culture that we had, I had a guy who went to a bar, several of them went
to a bar, and they broke a window, a glass pane in the door in the bar and left, they were, had
been drinking they were, he was pretty much too drunk to feel the pain,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They walked back to the, to the barracks, this is at night and the MPs, when they call
the MPs they followed the blood trail to Merrell barracks and when they came into Merrell
barracks, they had the CQ guy cause they were afraid to go into the barracks, this is MPs, Army
MPs,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Alright, that’s the culture we were dealing with,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Does that make sense to you, you probably haven’t seen that but that’s,
Interviewer: Well I knew actually I’ve talked to some people who were in Germany, kind of in
that period at times there were definitely discipline problems,
Veteran: There were, there were discipline problems and you couldn’t get anything done really
you couldn’t, it, it was a major problem that, maintenance was a major, I think I mentioned
maintenance once before, the military, the Army had sold out to a maintenance program that
didn’t work,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and we had a, maintenance Warrant Officer
(22:00)
Veteran: Who was a good, probably a very good sergeant but he wasn’t a good maintenance
Warrant Office and that unit he was, that was for us, we were the lower echelon and he was an
echelon above, we were supposed to be able to send things to him to be fixed, the only thing I
ever saw them fix was the commander’s Jeep and their vehicle,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Which is a Jeep, alright, that’s the only thing I ever saw them fix period, you had to turn
something in to get it fixed, you had to have everything there and they go by and inspect and
then you might not get it back with everything on it, all the parts on it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Because they were prone to scavenge, to keep their two little vehicles running, it was a
nightmare,
Interviewer: So what was your actual job there?
Veteran: I was a battery commander to start with,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: As a battery commander I didn’t do a great job at it, I have to admit, I did what I could
do, we came in and I was supposed to be alpha battery commander, an alpha battery was okay,
bravo battery had been, was the disciplined battery,
Interviewer: Oh
Veteran: Everybody you needed discipline, didn’t fit in got put in bravo battery, the other thing
was we technically I had a hundred people there, full complement,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I could only control, I only had control of about fifty five to fifty six of them, so you
looking on paper it looks like you’re all there so why can’t you do and, let me tell you
something, you cannot do one hundred percent of the job all the time with half the people,
Interviewer: So where,
Veteran: You cannot maintain that for a long period of time,
�Interviewer: So were the other people there or doing something else?
Veteran: We were not at full strength by any means,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: So none of it was full strength,
(24:01)
Veteran: The maintenance system, you couldn’t get parts, getting parts was a big problem, we
couldn’t get support, we had in our howitzers, eight-inch howitzers have the same engine
transmission that a Greyhound bus has okay, Greyhound buses run, our engines didn’t,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And when our engines didn’t run you can’t get there, you can’t move shoot and
communicate,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: So we could shoot, we could communicate so so better, but moving was a real problem
and our, we couldn’t, we weren’t supposed to change the powerpack, engine transmission that
came together and was a big unit, we weren’t supposed to do that a the battery level, but at the
battery level we didn’t do that we had down ve-, down weapons,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: so we end up doing that at the battery level I mean, out of necessity, there was a
maintenance company on the, on the base and one of the things they had, I had to go through, in
the interim between, go, before I went over there was go to Fort Knox and we had a, a class it
was a several week or two on maintenance, Knox was the big maintenance,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: Thing, and I went to that and they said yeah go talk to the Warrant Officer he’d be glad
to, happy to see ya, I went and talked to the guy when I first got there, went and talked to the
guy, he talked to our Motor Warrant, our Motor Warrant talked to our Battalion Commander, our
Battalion Commander told me not to do that again okay, even when I said it exactly like that but
that’s what it came down to, well you’re gonna mess up the relationships we got going,
(26:00)
Veteran: We didn’t have a relationship alright, we didn’t have a reala-, relationship, and I was
nice with the guy, I wasn’t being ugly or anything I just wanted to introduce myself then when I
�was there, I need, that wasn’t the way he took it, oh well, now you like special, I like special
forces a lot better because,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: If that had happened with Special Forces, we’d just have it out and it’d been over when
one of us walked away and the other one may or may not have, anyway, different,
Interviewer: Special Forces might have more of an interest in getting the job done too,
Veteran: Special Forces was, is a good organization that they do and they’re dedicated and they
got, that’s one of the things, one of the better things I've done, when I got out of OCS I applied
for Airborne, Ranger, Special Forces, and didn’t get it, I did that several times, didn’t get it,
ended, ended up there so
Interviewer: So when do you finish up the tour in Germany?
Veteran: Well I wasn’t, I went, that’s not quite the end of it so,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: When I left there, and I was there for a year as a battery commander and went, was the
S2 intel, Intel Security Officer,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we changed Commanders, battery, Battery Commanders, so when, in, when
classified material came in I had to sign for it okay, and I had to show it to the Battalion
Commander and he wanted me, the guy that came in was you can trust me guy guy, alright,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I'm the battery, Battalion Commander and you can trust me so I don’t need to sign for
it, bullshit I'm signing for it, I can’t just leave it with you,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway we had a little bit of a rile over that but, and I'm not a, and have never been a
yes-man so anyway,
(28:00)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: We got through that, I ended up, that’s when I got, no its not, I went to VII Corps
artillery working in the S3 shop and I worked there for a while and I was just an S3, I was the
nuclear NRASS, nuclear release authentication system officer for them and,
Interviewer: What does that mean?
Veteran: There's a system, you can’t, we have nuclear weapons,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Alright, the nuclear weapons are locked away, we don’t tell people that but they’re
locked away, but you have to have authority to use them, you have to, that’s the President, comes
from the President down through the Air Force to the Army, Air Force through chain, it’s not
chain of command its indirect chain of command, but we have to have it and if that part went
through the Air Force, and down and there's a, an authentication system and there are devices on
the weapons that have to be, you have to be, have two parts, two parts,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Of the combination to open, to be able to use them and you have to have two different
people and your authentication system to open the correct cards and its, its complicated,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But that’s the way it works, anyway I was responsible for training and for testing for
run around that and other things, we ended up being rifted from, from there, I was in, from
Nuremburg Germany to Stuttgart Germany, we were living on the economy there and got rifted
and went back home,
(30:01)
Interviewer: Explain, so you usually see that word as “riffed” rather than rifted but explain what
that means,
Veteran: Because of the reduction in force the, the Army has set levels of office, officers to
enlisted,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And so when thy reduce the size of the Army they reduce the size of the Officer Corps,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And there had been I think, I think mine was the fifth RIF that they had had and I got,
when I was notified of it and there's no recourse really, got a little stamps with, with Pentagon
�stamped on your papers, no, they’ve reviewed it and its done so you’re out basically, so I was an
Officer, a Reserve Officer on active duty without a college degree,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And now my source of commission was OCS,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And all those things counted against staying in,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And so I was out,
Interviewer: Would they have allowed you to stay as a sergeant or was that not an option?
Veteran: I could have gone back, I could have gone back as an E5,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: When you report to OCS, you’re, you’re promoted to E5, I could have gone back to that
and I declined okay,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So I, I was out and I went to, went back to school, decided, with my wife and I went to
the library one day, we were looking to get, kept hearing rumors of more riffs, more riffs coming
along and sat down and looked through some career publications and trying to see, if I'm rifted
what am I gonna do,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And one of the things I wanted to do is, was be a veterinarian, my grandfather was a
real, he was a cow doctor he wasn’t really a certified veterinarian but a late doctor,
(32:01)
Veteran: And I decided that’s what I wanted to do, so I went, when I got out I went back to
school, went to Clemson for year and got the prerequisites and I did well, I applied myself and
did well and I had, my, my wife told me later she didn’t really want me to be accepted to go
through, to be a veterinarian,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Because of the, it’s the hardship in your own school,
�Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: How much money in the, but I got accepted, I had, so I had one shot at it, one shot at
being a veterinarian and I got accepted so then I spent four years at the University of Georgia, I
was a year at Clemson and I took animal industries which taught me a lot, it was, I didn’t grow
up on a farm, I had both my grandparents were farmers but I wasn’t, we lived in town in
Spartanburg anyway, I went to Clemson and then I went to University of Georgia for four years
and learned to be a veterinarian and when I graduated from there I went to Junaluska Animal
Hospital in Waynesville area of North Carolina, mountains of North Carolina,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Practiced there two years and then I went to South Carolina and went into a partnership
with a guy, called him a three P veterinarian,
Interviewer: Means?
Veteran: Which means he cures everything with penicillin, panel log, and prednisone,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Three P veterinarian, now you could treat a lot with those three things I’ll grant you but
there are multiple other things and not a very progressive person,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Okay, he had been there a long time and then when he graduated that was the degree,
was veterinary medicine, it wasn’t for us it was a doctorate,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(34:00)
Veteran: So you had to have at least two years of undergraduate, most people had four,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So when, when I completed my veterinary degree I went back and applied for a degree
when I completed the work, I applied for a degree from Clemson and I got it, so my, I graduated
from Clemson in April and then Georgia in May,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It’s a moth apart because of the graduation dates anyway, so I have a DVM, went to
Junaluska, went back to, went to Union South Carolina and practiced, started out in a partnership
�and then ended up being a sole practitioner and a, a year before that I had gotten back on
Reserve, back in the Reserve,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: To make, to build time for retirement and they called me one day, they were looking for
active-duty veterinarians and I was burned out from veterinary practice, I lived a mile away from
my practice and every night I would leave it, 5:30 or 6 o’clock when I could get away, closed at
five,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: 5:30 to 6:00 when I could get away and have calls to go back every night okay, I
changed my hours one time, moved it from five to six,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I sat there from five to six and then had the same thing happen, so I changed it back,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: if it’s not going to help me, why bother anyway, I, I went back in as a veterinarian into
veterinary corps and my first assignment was a 10th Special Forces group, I had wanted to be
Special Forces before and didn’t get in,
Interviewer: Okay, now what year was this that you’re going back in?
Veteran: 1984,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: ’84 to ’87 I was with the Special Forces group,
(36:00)
Interviewer: Okay and where were they based?
Veteran: Fort Devens Massachusetts,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: So I wasn’t jump qualified, so I had to go back to jump school now at this point I’m
forty years old,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And I went to jump school and broke my ankle on me forth jump, I spent three months
in a cast, about three months,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I jumped again and got my fifth jump on the third of April and jumped into Fort
Lewis Washington on Saturday the sixth of April, which is my birthday,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: When you jump after being broken you, it still makes you a little antsy, but we got
through it,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: It was interesting jumping into Fort Lewis because its, it was turned out to be a rough
drop zone, there were hillocks and they, and I picked out one of those and was looking at, I had a
broke, had the broken ankle before so trimalleolar fracture was a fairly serious thing,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Fortunately they didn’t have to go in and mess with it, it was a closed, so I didn’t, it
wasn’t an open fracture,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was closed and so I didn’t have to, I healed better than I would have done if, if pinned
things and done that,
Interviewer: So they could just hold it in place with a cast and,
Veteran: With a cast yes, yes,
Interviewer: So why were you jumping into Fort Lewis? Was this,
Veteran: It was a way to get there in part, we, the National, National Air Guard from Rhode
Island or, would fly us out there and if we had a jump at the far end,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So we loaded into a C-130 and flew out there and we spent one night in Fargo, North
Dakota,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(38:00)
�Veteran: Then went out there and jumped in, and what we were going there for is there had, part
of the training, part of the medical section and the medical section is involved with training for
the 18 deltas who were refresher training that kind of stuff, and we wanted to send people to a
mountain medical course put on by University New Hampshire and they saw that there was a
school called mountain medicine course being given at Fort Lewis Washington,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And what it turned out to be, there was a medical battalion there and this was a getaway
for them, a treat for them to go up on the mountain and campout,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They hadn’t expected us to do that but anyway, we went, it was a great fun time, we got
a little bit of medicine and some cross country skiing and some downhill skiing and that was a,
being from South Carolina I did not have a lot of experience skiing, didn’t have any experience
skiing,
Interviewer: So what do either the Army or the Special Forces have need of a veterinarian for?
Veteran: I'm glad you asked, I was hoping you would ask that question, you know of course that
the Special Forces is engaged in guerrilla warfare,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We took care of the gorillas,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We took care of the gorillas,
Interviewer: As in Africa ape gorillas, as opposed to,
Veteran: You didn’t get the joke,
Interviewer: People with submachine guns?
Veteran: No, no its what do we really did, I told that once to, to a General, we went through a
receding line and he asked the same question,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: What, after the receding line, well we take care of the gorillas, anyway, it was a, what
we really did is, is anything to do with food stuff we took care of,
�(40:01)
Veteran: Anything to do with animals,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Use them as pack animals and other things, how they ended up and how they ended up
with a slot for a veterinarian in the Special Forces groups was out of World War two and when
the y formed tenth group, tenth group was the first one formed and was formed as a stay behind
to, so when Europe was overrun tenth group was going to be there in Flint Kaserne Germany to
organize the resistance and the first soldiers were predominantly people who had been in World
War two, they were Foreign Nationals,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They had been in the resistance movements over there and they had used pack animals
so when they looked at the tam on knee, they said where’s the veterinarian,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So that’s how they got the veterinarian in,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: When they use them a lot, it turned out to be a good thing because of the use of the
military working dogs now, the military working dogs has become,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: A big program throughout the military not just Special Forces and not just the Army,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So that’s been a, been a boom, but we did, we do food inspections we did, I did a lot of
things, I was also their Preventive Medicine Officer and it was a time when the, the medical
department would not provide an MD to be a Preventative Medicine Officer so I did that as well,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I had just did it, and did a lot of inspections and a lot of training stuff like that to do, but
then the other thing I did while I was there was, I went to the Special Forces Qualification course
and the Officer, Officer Branch, Officer part of them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(42:00)
�Veteran: At Fort Bragg and got through that have a long tab, from there, from, from tenth group I
went to a-med advance course, I’d been to the artillery advance course but that didn’t count
because I was an a-med and so I went to a-med advance course and from there I went to be the
OIC of the UK and Ireland Division of Veterinary Attachment Europe, and it’s a TDA, was at
that time I was there, it was a TDA, not a TONE,
Interviewer: Did you have,
Veteran: A Table of Distribution and Allowances
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: TDA, TONE, Table of Organization, Organization and Equipment, so more, most units,
the real units in the Army, the permanent units in the Army are TONE’s,
Interviewer: Okay this is similar to what they used to call TDY, the Temporary Deployment,
Veteran: No, TDY is when you go someplace,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: And, temporary duty,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: This is, this is more or less permanent,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: But it, haven’t even been there I don’t know how long but it, it’s a Table of Distribution
Allowances, you’ve got a mission that doesn’t fit in with, with a TONE unit,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: You’re not a field unit, we were not a field unit instead, well we did what I did, I had
twenty six people that worked for me and England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Northern Ireland,
and they, they, twenty six people to, two civilians and I had two veterinarians that worked for
me, part of the problem was that it had never been properly organized,
(44:01)
Veteran: To function that way,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And so we had to basically two missions, the missions were to do the inspections, fulfill
the role of the USDA and the FDA for offshore procurement of UF, foodstuff,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That was one mission and the other was taken care of military working animals and the
civilian pets,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So when I got there, there was an OIC and there was a one veterinarian in charge of the
food inspection and the other one was in charge of the, the animal,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Part of it, and the one in charge of the animal part of it was doing the pet, they made a
circuit where you would go to different bases, took him a week and he, during that time he was
away one night, spent one night away from home every week, the second week he was supposed
to be taking care of the military working dogs,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: In Britain because of the rabies quarantine, the military working dogs are owned by the
RAF,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But they're in use, what happens is, it was an agreement between the Air Force and the
RAF, Royal Air Force that they would get the dog when a handler would come in, they would
get the dog for the duration of the handler’s time there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And it would go back to the RAF, and for that we gave them $40,000, okay,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We took care of it all the way, everything else and that was a big issue because there
had been a letter written by the, the Chief of Security for the Brit-, American Air Force there out
of Mildenhall, because they weren’t getting the support,
(46:00)
Veteran: Veterinary support they needed, and so this veterinarian that came in that was there
when I got there, his thing was well do we own those dogs, I had a quick answer for him, yes, we
do we get them everything they need just like they’re ours,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then he had a big, to-do about being away from home and his child growing up
without him, I had been in veterinary practice in the states and living in the same house with my
children and you’re called away so much that you really almost grow up without knowing them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Because you don’t spend, can’t spend a lot of time, so I didn’t have a lot of sympathy
for the guy,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He also did not have a, did not have a, a veterinary license, he flunked the National
Board,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: And they, at one point you didn’t have to have a license, but they started having,
requiring all veterinarians to have a license in some state,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And he didn’t have one, so the OIC was allowing him to have Saturdays off so he could
study for his boards, you know he did, I really believe he studied,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: For his boards, he also had the other OIC had a problem with him in that the Australian
trench coat, the one with the cape and the slouch hat,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He decided that’s what he was gonna wear, where we were supposed to be wearing our
instruction said we dressed like the, with a coat and tie like the business population,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and this is what he wore around and the other guy didn’t like it, but he didn’t do
anything about it either
(48:00)
Veteran: And I was a quick fix, you can’t wear that anymore, well everybody likes it, well this is
not Australia, you don’t fit in with the population, you can’t wear that anymore, and the other
�one, our, our Dr. Fairichild, Sharon Fairichild, she was in charge of food inspection and they had
a list in, we were not computer, were not a great on computers,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Beginning of the computers stuff,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Had a word processor and you know the old tractor feed paper,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Okay, there was a, a list of initial inspections that were required that were behind, was
that long, I don’t know how many it was,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: A bunch because you know it’s very, a lot of inspections and both veterinarians were
paranoid about the OIC, had a right to be because the OIC was not totally fair either frankly,
Interviewer: Alright so where are you in the chain, are you below the OIC?
Veteran: I'm waiting, I'm waiting for the OIC to leave,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: And I took over,
Alright so how long a period was that?
Veteran: It turned out to be a, a month or so,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Longer than normal, longer than it should have been,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I got to see Carl, Carl Berryman, and things like he would degrade the British,
British are blah-blah-blah-blah,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then put on his little hat and his little, do I look British, this guy’s crazy alright,
�Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Come on, it’s a lot of crazy people in the world but you know why do I keep running
into all of them, anyway he finally left and we, we separate things out,
(50:01)
Veteran: My Commander, it was in Germany, was a full, full Colonel,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Full bird Colonel, he had his own little hang-ups too, he had, we had four TDAs, we
had one we were operating on, we had one that should have been and we had, it kept, you never
knew really what the real TDA was but what I found out was until I got somebody on the
ground, when I went in I had orders for Lakenheath, and Lakenheath is not where we were, we
were in RAF West Ruislip down by London, but whoever wrote the things didn’t know this and I
found out that it, it, until they got on the ground I could move people around,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And get away with it, I'm not sure it was legal, but it worked, so I put people where
they needed to be,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And so the twenty-six people that I had were all in, in one- and two-man assignments
they were out there on the civilian slaughterhouses, slaughterhouses and you know inspection
points,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Different places, it was a, a challenging job, it was one of the better jobs I've had, and I
enjoyed it, I was on the road though all the time I needed another veterinarian, I ended dividing
the territory into three sections, two had veterinarians in charge and they did everything,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Food inspection, and military, and working dogs, the dog work and the food inspection
work, and the third one I didn’t have a veterinarian for, we didn’t do the, the animal care there
and we didn’t have the, the mission, didn’t have working dogs,
Interviewer:Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we didn’t do civilian dogs and that was mostly Navy up north,
(52:00)
�Veteran: and I ended up doing a lot of that, I did all of it really,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Scotland and Ireland, went to Wales several times, interesting, interesting stuff in its
own right, went down to, in England down to Cornwall down, the western, southwestern,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Part of England,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And there was a Marine base down there and they wanted me to come in and inspect
some, some MREs that they had stored in a little hut, been stored there like three years old or
something,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They were old, anyway I did the inspection and what I found was that they were, they
had been temperature abuse, I mean they were, there was no heat no anything, they'd just been
sitting there for a long period of time and so I condemned them and that hit because I condemned
those they had to go back, veterinary corps had to go back and recheck that whole lot which is
worldwide,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Cause a little bit of a wave but heck with it, hats what my job was,
Interviewer: Almost three years old anyway
Veteran: Yeah what the heck, yeah nobody like to eat, it should have, they should have been
eating them in rotating them out,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But they didn’t anyway, but we would go in and I would do inspections, initial
inspections so in and inspect plants, we did, they were trying to get the milk suppliers under the,
our, FDA’s milk plan,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And, and then they were trying to get everything to fall under the FDA’s plan for, for
fluid milk, which is not, we didn’t have a lot for ultra-high temperature pasteurization,
�(54:00)
Veteran: So what they did in Germany, this is our full bird Colonel, nice guy but still had his
quirks, but his ruling over there, what they did over there is they pasteurized it first,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: With HTST, high temperature short time pasteurization which is what most of our milk
over here is, and then they ran it through the, the ultra-high temperature of pasteurization so your
pasteurizing it twice and we did not have that option and most of the plants, the plants are, are,
were very modern the HTST plants, high temperature short time plants, most of them in Britain
were run by computers and what the, our plan in the US pasteurization requires a, a pump to be
timed and set and wired set so it won’t change the output, well if you don’t have that you don’t
have that pump and your pump is, is not a fixed volume pump, what we ended up doing was
using the pasteurization, the pasteurizer as the pump, to set the volume, but in the, the British
plants many of them, the guy sitting on the, on the floor supervising the milk going through he
got too much blown back, too much wasn’t, didn’t meet the pasteurization qualifications, he
could change the temperature, and we couldn’t allow that,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We had, had to go through the pasture, it was, it was very interesting I thought,
(56:00)
Interviewer: You learn all sorts of things in the military,
Veteran: You learn things you had no idea you would ever needed to know,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: One of the worst things we had to do was inspect eggs, and the reason it was a bad job
was because we have a different standard in the US, we wash eggs,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And reoil them,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Over there they don’t,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So you had dirty eggs, people complain about dirty eggs, well you have to think about
this guys, guy gets up at three in the morning to be there by six and they wondering when they
�start out, he’s got a bunch of eggs they tell him how many he has, how many cases he has to
inspect, the plant people pull those cases out of the lot and they run them through the machine
and you’re looking and you pick out and you get so they don’t pass, they get one free relook, so
you go out and come back in an hour and they're supposed to be reworking these eggs you know,
they don’t,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You come back in an hour and you inspect another batch and they don’t pass and then
they can call the contracting officer, not the veterinarian but the contracting officer and give
them another look, so you’re working about, you start out at three in the morning you’re working
about three four in the afternoon and it’s about time to go home,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And you’re tired anyway and they pass them just because they really haven’t been
reworked,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: A lot of interesting thing I learned about food inspection and things like that, go into a
plant and you seen the thing on the news where somebody is licking an ice cream, don’t know if
you’ve seen it or not, so fat its going on and put it on YouTube where they go a store take it out,
a carton of ice cream,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Take the top off lick it put the top back on put it back in,
Interviewer: Ewe
Veteran: No lie, well one place we went you went in and there was chocolate and they written
something in the chocolate,
(58:01)
Veteran: Okay, well you can’t have that stuff, this is not, this is not right,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway that was a relook,
Interviewer: Alright back out of this a little, how long did you spend in England?
Veteran: Two years,
�Interviewer: Okay and when do you finish that duty?
Veteran: I came back to University of Georgia, I applied for a long-term civilian education,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I applied for a PhD program well I got into that and went back to University of
Georgia and in the department I was in, not the school but the department they required you to
have a master’s degree which I didn’t have so my major professor said go ahead and start and I
will talk them out of this, well he lied,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So I got a masters and a PhD in three years and five months and the reason its three
years and five months, about a year out I saw I wasn’t gonna make my deadline, so I asked for a
six-month extension but instead of having me report on the last day of six-month they had me
report on the first day of the six-month so I didn’t get, but I got it done,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I went on so,
Interviewer: Alright so what field did you do the,
Veteran: Microbiology,
Interviewer: Okay, alright and what were you gonna do with that?
Veteran: Actually what I did with that is I went into, went to work for a Walter Reed Institute of
Research and HIV research,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It sound interesting sounds important and it is but its like Trivial Pursuit they’ve already
looked for all the obvious things and so they, so and I went to lots of meeting, I met all the
famous researchers and other than that I can’t say I, I personally accomplished a great deal
toward the, but you’re looking at, at small things that we still don’t have a good vaccine for,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: For prevention, I was working at the area I was working in was a vaccine for the
prevention,
(1:00:02)
Veteran: Of HIV,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I was not the, the lab animal veterinarian but I ended up doing that,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We had a civilian contractor who got another job and quit, and I was the only
veterinarian on staff, and I ended up doing lab animal vet for a while through that so, interesting
stuff,
Interviewer: Okay are you doing that at that point as a civilian or are you still in the military?
Veteran: I'm in the military,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: And then I hit twenty years and I had to retire, had to retire going active duty and I
already been passed over for a Lieutenant Colonel so I, I decided to retire,
Interviewer: Alright, now tape number three is about up,
Veteran: Oh my gosh what’s our time doing, three thirty okay,
Interviewer: So we’re gonna stop it cause I,
*Screen goes black*
Interviewer: Okay so we are kind of working through your veterinary career,
Veteran: Right,
Interviewer: In the military at this point I think you have been talking about how you were
involved with HIV research and wound up supervising lab animals and so forth, and when did
you finish that particular stent?
Veteran: That was 1996,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: It was August, I got out of the military in August of ’96,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: About the, I think the first of August,
�Interviewer: Okay, and then from there,
Veteran: I went to the diagnostic lab in South Carolina, Clemson veterinary diagnostic lab in
Pontiac or just outside of Columbia,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: I worked there for, for seven years as Supervisory Microbiologist, and we dealt with a
lot of things, the lab was, had not had a Microbiologist in a few years and it needed it, a lot of
corrections and those kinds of things,
(1:02:02)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we moved into a new building which helped a lot but just finding creative way to
get equipment was an interesting thing,
Interviewer: So that’s kind of like being in the Army?
Veteran: Very much like being in the Army, we all had an interesting thing happen though when
I first got there, we, Salmonella Enteritdis had become an issue and we had an outbreak that the
FDA, the USDA had done all the chicken work, egg work,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Prior to the and the FDA decided to take it over, they lost, lost funding for it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And FDA decided to take it over and so the first case the FDA did was in South
Carolina there was a Mexican restaurant in Winder Georgia that they had to, customers had an
outbreak in the egg source for that was a company in South Carolina,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And they found that, found the Salmonella in the Chile Riano,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: A Chilean egg and they would, it was temperature abused,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: But the Salmonella we traced back to the, to the company, and the thing about
Salmonella Enteritdis is that we’ve had Salmonella and chickens all along, Salmonella grows at a
little higher temperature,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Than normal, and the chickens have that higher temperature about 103, the difference in
this one in the other Salmonella is that the others were in the gut and this would, would go in,
invade the ovary,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And come out inside the egg,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: now not the outside of the egg, so that became an issue, we ended up writing a, an egg
quality assurance plan for the industry in South Carolina and, and there were only five major
producers,
(1:04:01)
Veteran: There might have been some backyard flocks, but these were all the commercial
producers there were five of those who were in our plan, got it approved all voluntary and got it
approved through the FDA,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Which was a major accomplishment because some of the other states, Pennsylvania had
been working on it longer and didn’t, didn’t, we beat them to it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: To get the approval from the FDA, also when West Nile virus came through we, we
coordinated with our department of health and environmental control and monitoring for the
West Nile virus, interesting stuff, when I, I left there I went to work for a, 2003 I went to work
for the Joint Special Operations Medic Training Center with a contract company, Global
Services and it was the refresher training for 18 deltas, the Special Forces Medics, and I was the
veterinarian to support that,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Group and other work as needed,
Interviewer: Okay, at this point are you meeting people who’ve been Iraq and Afghanistan on
missions like that?
�Veteran: Oh yes, well the this I part of, yes, what we, the special, you go through the, the qcourse, the Special Forces Qualifications course to become an 18 delta and that’s a yearlong
course,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And so there's a lot of surgical training maybe the Special Force’s makes are trained in
surgery, trained as first responders and they use animal models,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: In their training and the animal model we used was goats, so my job was to be sure that
the goats were not, did not suffer at all,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Follow all the rules and that everybody was following the rules,
(1:06:02)
Veteran: Which is kind of sometimes difficult with Special Force’s troops but, only, the only
group that’s worse is MD’s okay, MD’s have no respect for animals I've learned this the hard
way, but we get through that, I did that and I also taught classes they finally made this, converted
that from a, a contract position to a government service position,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I did that from anyway, form 2000, 2003 to 2010 I was contractor 2010 to 2012, I
was a GS Army GS 13,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then I transferred to the Air Force as an Air Force civilian and GS-13 and,
Interviewer: Why did you make that switch?
Veteran: Wait, one of the things in making a switch from a contractor to, to a GS that position
put me under the military veterinarian,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the military veterinarians didn’t appreciate that, that you're a veterinarian, they
think you're more like a slave or a technician and want to tell you how to do your work, it, they
hired me for a veterinarian not a tech,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And that job came open and I took it and I was up, I never regretted taking it, I like the,
working with the Air Force,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They had had one person doing that job and she was, she had a military career in the
Army, I don’t know if she retired or not, but she was, didn’t get it off the ground really,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So I took it over and had lots of contacts and we got it going,
(1:08:02)
Veteran: In the Army we used goats as our model and this other one used pigs, you know there's,
there's a lot regulation and paperwork, you have to plan it well in advance, has to have approval
from everybody going its not just something you jump out and do and when we were doing
animal model training it’s not random, you have a set protocol and this is what you do,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And you have, you really have to watch MD’s when they're doing that because they
don’t like to follow rules,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: Not like these Lieutenant Colonels,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, I did that until I retire in, in 2015,
Interviewer: Alright, now, I guess if you look back over the whole thing and the time you spent
in, in service, can you sum up I mean how you think that affected you or shaped you?
Veteran: Everything, everything you do shapes you and it certainly did me, okay, I was quiet,
shy, I tell people I was shy until I kissed the Blarney Stone but, which I did but too, I did kiss the
Blarney Stone but I was, it was more what I did in the service and what you have to do that
brought it out, brought me in a maturation if you will, it’s like being in Vietnam it makes you, it
changes you, you don’t want it to change you but it changes you regardless, Special Forces
training changed me going to the instructor course for the Special Forces they have an instructor
course there and that helps train you a lot, how to present things and how to give classes so,
Interviewer: Yeah, how do you think Vietnam affected you?
�(1:10:01)
Interviewer: If you look at that piece of things,
Veteran: Vietnam effects, effects everybody you have a different outlook on life, there's a certain
fatalism alright, part of the thing like going to jump school and everybody worries about,
jumping out of airplanes but so what,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You got a parachute,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That’s, overcome your fear, I, it, I can say it certainly affected me alright,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t,
Interviewer: Yeah, but for you it’s really kind of one stage of many cause you had a whole series
of different things,
Veteran: I had a whole stage of, yes many different things I’ve done and you learn from each of
them and each of them changes you somewhat, you can’t undo any of it, are there things I would
have done differently, you, you bet there were, I recognize things too if I had not had a wife and
a child I would probably be filling up a hole in Vietnam right now,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Alright, because you can become addicted to that, that adrenaline rush,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And things, the, the one job I would have extended for, I would not have extended for
any of the jobs I had although the one I liked best was being the Liaison Officer but with the like
second of the 506,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But the one job I would have extended for would have been to be an Infantry Company
Commander, because they're the ones that do things, they're the ones that are in control, the
Battalion Commanders not in control he may think he is but I mean he’s flying around at 10,000
feet trying to tell you on the ground what’s going on, he’s not in control,
�(1:12:00)
Veteran: Brigade Commanders from the Brigade Commander above they really didn’t know
what they were doing, I don’t think, I didn’t know, didn’t know the Generals,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Had very little interaction with them, but brigade, the Battalion Commanders had some
control,
Interviewer: But they're not really leading men on the ground,
Veteran: They're not leading men on, well I’ve been told some of them did,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay I’ve heard of some that did, Colonel Honeycutt if you read about him, I didn’t
know him personally okay,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But if you read about him, he was, he was an on the ground kind of a guy and I just
don’t know, Colonel Lucas was not,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He liked the helicopter,
Interviewer: Very much so,
Veteran: He liked starched fatigues and shined shoes and airconditioned hooch,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright well since we are at a Ripcord reunion and we get back to that,
Veteran: Right,
Interviewer: Ill fainted Commander at the end I guess is probably a good place to wind up the
interview,
Veteran: I think it is,
Interviewer: So thank you very much for sharing stories,
Veteran: Okay, I gotta go get...
(1:13:20)
�
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
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RHC-27_HinesR2319V2
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Hines, Raymond (2 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2019
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2019-07-26
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Raymond Hines was born on April 6, 1944 in Wellford, South Carolina, and graduated high school in 1962. Hines received his draft notice in 1965 and chose to enlist in the Army. He completed Basic Training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Devens, Massachusetts, where he became a Morse Intercept Operator. He also trained in Artillery OCS at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, before transferring to Fort Bliss, Texas, as part of the Air Defense for only two months before being transferred to Wurzburg Germany. From Germany, Hines was deployed to Vietnam with the 2nd of the 319th as a Fire Direction Officer and proceeded to report to the Bravo Battery at Firebase Bastogne. He saw heavy combat with this unit. While in Vietnam, Hines also worked as an assistant S-3 fireman, and a Liaison Officer for the 2nd of the 506 at Fire Base Ripcord. After taking some additional advanced artillery courses, he deployed to Nuremberg Germany with the 3rd of the 70th House Artillery before transferring to the 7th Corps Artillery as a Nuclear Release Authentication System Officer. He would later return to Europe after recieveing his veterinarian degree in the United States to care for military service animals.
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Hines, Raymond
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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eng
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5433f5039206d237f7bb85a7a027df43.mp4
da810e75451199a656df4e8292a138a4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4cdfcb4a1081db4155ff45fc6a6b73b.pdf
f57421e906c4a5c6b2be3a9490472646
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Raymond Hines
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Christopher Kroupa
Interviewer: Alright we are talking today with Raymond Hines of South Carolina, the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project.
Okay, begin with some background on yourself, so to start with where and when were you born?
Veteran: I was born in, on the, April 6 1944 in Wellford South Carolina.
Interviewer: Okay, and what part of the state is that in?
Veteran: That’s in Spartanburg County, the upper, upper part of the state.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Northwest part of the state.
Interviewer: Okay, now did you grow up there, or did you move around?
Veteran: I grew up in Spartanburg.
Interviewer: Okay, and what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?
Veteran: My father was a city policeman in Spartanburg.
Interviewer: Alright, and then did you finish high school?
Veteran: I did, in Spartanburg high school, 1962
Interviewer: Okay, and what did you do when you graduated?
Veteran: I went to Spartanburg Virginia College for two years and then one year at the
University of South Carolina.
Interviewer: Alright, and did you finish college at that point?
Veteran: I did not, I graduated with an associate degree from Junior College and then I went into
engineering in the University of South Carolina, have a brother-in-law who is an engineer and I
felt it would be a grand thing to do, learned when I got there that you needed to start in
engineering if you were gonna be an engineer, and the other thing I learned besides how to drink
beer was that I didn’t wanna be an engineer.
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: *laughs*
Interviewer: Alright, so
Veteran: Ended up on academic suspension.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Veteran: That put me number one, number one draft pick, I was number one on the draft list for
Spartanburg County.
Interviewer: And when was that?
Veteran: 1965
(2:00)
Interviewer: Okay, alright, and so when did you actually then, so you get drafted and then once
you get the draft notice,
Veteran: I get the, I got the notice to come for a physical and of course I passed that.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I talked to the recruiters, I had some college, I talked to the recruiters, and the only
service where you could go to OCS without having a degree was, was the Army. So I went, I
joined the Army, Okay, and when I was down there I did fairly well on my intel, on the
intelligence test that they did and the recruiter for Army Security Agency came in and talked to
us, and talked to me, and talked to the other guys but you had to sign it for four years, and I
ended up doing that, and well you don’t end up going to Vietnam, Army Security Agency, and
you’re pretty safe and it’s kinda like a sissy agency, but nevertheless that appealed to me at the
time, I did that and then later I went, I went to OCS in field artillery and ended up in artillery.
Interviewer: Alright, so to kinda back up here, so basically once you got the draft notice,
Veteran: Right
Interviewer: You kinda weighed your options and decided to go to ahead and enlist
Veteran: Yes
Interviewer: And enlist with the expectation that you go to officers’ candidates’ school once you
finished your regular training?
�Veteran: Well there was no expectation, it was with the hope I would get Army
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Because there was no expectation there,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: There was no guarantee either way, it was just the only service where I could,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: There was that opportunity.
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: And the other services there was not that opportunity, so that’s the one I took where
there was a least a pathway there.
Interviewer: Alright so where did you go from basic training?
Veteran: Basic training at Fort Jackson South Carolina.
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: And then I went to Fort Devens Massachusetts for AIT and I was a Morse Intercept
Operator.
(4:02)
Interviewer: Okay before we get there, a lot of people these days don’t really even knows what
goes on in basic training, so what was basic training at Fort Jackson South Carolina like in the
mid 1960s?
Veteran: Oh, it’s just jolly fun I’ll tell you what. Basic training in South Carolina, it was in
December, I reported in, signed in the first day of December and it was several days we were
processing, it was the build-up for Vietnam,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And they were processing people in and we’d march around and they got us up till we
got to the basic training thing and get us up at 4:00 in the morning and we’d have to clean up the
barracks, clean everything up and fold up the mattresses and whatever else, take our stuff, our
stuff in a bag, I had a little bag and I didn’t even take a coat it hadn’t been cold, I had a sweater
turned out to be the coldest winter in South Carolina in a hundred years, then we walked around
�and we sit on our bags in a line waiting for the mess hall to open, and then they took us down to,
there was a processing unit today its right, its down from where the hospital is, but there was one
big, big building down there where we were processed in and the finally we get to basic, our
basic training company, and mine was on Fort Jackson Boulevard right now the highway goes
through there, I-77 goes right through where our World War two barracks were,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The barracks were real interesting, they were two-story World War two barracks you
could walk up to the windows and shake ‘em, we would put a blanket over the window to keep
the draft out at night, guys would go out training, come back in, it was better on the second floor,
I was on the first floor,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was better on the second floor because heat rises, but and then the heat ducts were on
the ceiling anyway they were right down the middle of things the way they were designed, no
insulation, you were, they weren’t designed for, for cold,
(6:04)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They were designed for heat, and we didn’t have to worry about that I don’t imagine
guys in the summertime did, but we didn’t have to worry about the heat, see guys come in and
stand under a light bulb to try to get warm,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: As kind of an unusual thing, anyway all I can say is its typical training, we just took
raw recruits, it was a draft army, I was in basic training with the draftees’ form Puerto Rico,
Baltimore, as well as Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania was a big one,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Big group, and then other people I don’t know who else, trying to think who else was
there not many, there were three or four guys that wanted to be pilots, helicopter pilots
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: One guy was Kelly, Kelly, no I won’t talk about Kelly.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Let’s leave Kelly out because Kelly was one of those guys that would tell you one
thing, and then he was, he was the student who stood out in front of the formation and, and he
�would tell us what to do and then the drill sergeant would show up out there and it wasn’t the
right thing and Kelly would jump on us for not doing the right thing when he had just told us to
do it.
Interviewer: Hopefully
Veteran: Yeah, there are lots of Kelly’s’ Okay
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: So, if you hear me say it, that’s a Kelly, that’s what I’m thinking about.
Interviewer: Alright, now so was it just physical training and marching and discipline and that
kind of thing?
Veteran: Pretty much yeah,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Bayonet training, rifle range, hand-to-hand combat, I, there was a, had a training
accident doing hand-to-hand combat,
(8:00)
Veteran: The guy was supposed to pull his punch and he didn’t, and he, but, he hit me in the face
with his hand from behind, anyway and my teeth went through my lip right here and came out so
I had stitches right here before I even got out of basic training,
Interviewer: Wow.
Veteran: It really hasn’t caused me any problem, it did get me out of going to the gas chamber
because I couldn’t, they didn’t think I could put the mask on,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I got that letter so,
Interviewer: Alright, and I guess it sounds like you would have had a real kind of ethnic mix of
people in this training
Veteran: We did
Interviewer: Yeah cause by now the military’s integrated and so,
Veteran: There was a, in today’s world we have to be careful how we think about race and say
racial things okay,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm, yup
Veteran: I grew up in a racial community,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I grew up in the Jim Crow era,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Alright, when we got to basic training, blacks were given a priority, okay, it was reverse
integration,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We did have a black assistant drill sergeant who was a great guy, okay, and I wanna say
that, and I didn’t have any problem with race,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But it was, everybody wasn’t equal
Interviewer: Okay, and
Veteran: And if you’re white, you certainly weren’t equal
Interviewer: And where did the Puerto Ricans fit in?
Veteran: In between, everywhere, we had, we had Puerto Ricans from Puerto Rico , and we had
Puerto Ricans from Baltimore, Baltimore.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Baltimore, if I say it right, I can’t say it right, that makes sense, anyway,
(10:00)
Veteran: Just, they were just there, just it was just it was a mix and it was not, I really didn’t have
any problem with it, I don’t today,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: And it, it, I’m, I only point it out because it was a fact that happened,
Interviewer: Right
�Veteran: Okay,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Not that, that, I feel badly about it, our drill sergeant was white, our assistant drill
sergeant was black, and he was a real nice guy he was, don’t have anything to say bad about
either one of them really,
Interviewer: And, how easy was it for you to adjust to being in the Army?
Veteran: Yeah, I don’t think we had a choice, I mean, you adjusted,
Interviewer: Well there are, some people push back more than others and some people have a
harder time
Veteran: In our, in our company we had two guys, draftees from Pennsylvania and they called
them flip and flop and one, they had a drill sergeant behind him the whole time yelling at him
and then we’d go on a march and one of them would fall down and they’d say, don’t, don’t step
over him, don’t step over him, but it’s a different world then you have today, okay, it wasn’t,
they finally got out I think, they got, which was what their goal was, whether or not it was real or
not I can’t say.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They weren’t in my platoon, they were in a different platoon, but they were,
Interviewer: Alright so how long did basic last?
Veteran: Two months,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: At least two months.
Interviewer: They come to eight weeks at some point, so yeah, alright so you get through that, so
Veteran: I got through that,
Interviewer: So, you gotten through your, okay now,
Veteran: I got, I caught a cold before I got to basic training,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: We were, they were moving us around, part of the time they had us housed in tents,
we’d go into those old barracks,
(12:00)
Veteran: And you get there about nine or ten o’clock at night and then you’d have to make your
bed and shower, shave, and whatever you did and then you had to, they’d wake you up at four in
the morning and go through the thing and,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You go through it, they finally put us in tents, and the tents were okay, they were
warmer okay, we knew where we were and they had coal stoves and so hanging above the tents
was a coal smoke from these, from these little pot-bellied heaters in the tents and I caught a cold,
which I kept until I got to Fort Devens, I got to Fort Devens, got to Fort Devens and they had
World War two barracks also but those were insulated and they had heat,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Okay,
Interviewer: You’re in Boston now,
Veteran: You’re in Boston and that’s where I learned how to goof off also when we were in, we
got in, report in, we were in a casual company waiting on our classes to come up,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we went to formation, we go to formation, and first day we went as accident, we
didn’t carry over boots so they had some people working out in the fields, we got, we ended up
on that detail, being selected for that detail, a couple of us in the same barracks did, so we went
back to get our over boots and heard the truck leave that was carrying us out to where we’re
gonna be working and then we reported back to the acting sergeant and he just wanted us to
disappear so he would have to, so we disappeared, he figured out if you, you figured out quickly
that if your name wasn’t down, they didn’t have accountability of you, you home free, let’s say I
learned how to work the system.
Interviewer: Okay, so what did the actual training there consist of once that starts?
Veteran: Well in training didn’t happen for a while that we were in transition for a while
basically, we’re in a casual company and doing, ash and trash kind of things,
(14:09)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Alright, shoveling snow first time of my life I had that much snow to shovel,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They had a, that snowstorm we had us out there in a fenced in area where we couldn’t
just leave, you couldn’t sneak off anyway, and me and this other guys we were shoveling snow, I
went one way and he went the other and, from the middle, we did it really nice looked good, then
they put us doing some other stuff like trying to shovel snow where they’ve been running trucks
in and out all day, I mean you’re not gonna get that up come on,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then they put us back out there, called us back out there to shovel that same
sidewalk again and they’ve been walking on it and it’d been snowing all day and they’ve been
walking on it all day and we didn’t do as good a job that day, then it’s just kinda been time came
and we had to go home, I mean what can I say.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: No, I think overall, I did, and I think all the people I was with, we did it, those things
we considered important we did well,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we didn’t consider them important, we could have just considered it make work,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We goofed off,
Interviewer: Okay so your kind of getting, you’re learning the system or whatever for a while,
Veteran: That’s right.
Interviewer: But at a certain point your actual training program starts.
Veteran: We had a training program, training program consists of, we were in old, those old
barracks, World War two Barracks again for the training area, we had the company area and we
had the training area, and so when you leave the training, the company area to go to the training
area, and you had the instructors and they played tapes of Morse code,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: De-da, Alpha, De-da, Alpha, and you had to hit alpha,
(16:00)
�Veteran: So you had your hands on the typewriter,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We had a typewriter and we had a headset on, and the saying come over and you were,
had the beginning you yell the letter, you repeated the sound and yelled the letter, okay teaching
us to do, okay so then from there it got, we got after the first phase when you learned the
alphabet,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You were just listening to code and typing it, at different speeds and speaking kept
getting faster.
Interviewer: And how long were you doing that?
Veteran: Eight, maybe nine months, eight or nine, it was a long time.
Interviewer: Now are they adding stuff to that or is it just constant repetition of just doing Morse
code?
Veteran: It was Morse code, you, and it didn’t, it wasn’t like they were sending you letters,
anything that made sense, it was random.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Because basically, and that was in the era of the Morse code and everything was, was
encrypted,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Everything they sent and you would send out would be encrypted,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: So, it didn’t make sense, you’re just listening and typing, and it got to be like a reflex
you, you were daydreaming and doing that so,
Interviewer: How many hours a day would you do that?
Veteran: We’d start at eight to about three if you were on, you went to eight from, you had a
lunch break, but you went started at eight I guess probably, I think it was eight until noon,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And you come back at one and go till if you were with your peer group, where you
should be, you went home about three, if you weren’t you went home about five.
Interviewer: And so how well did you do with this?
Veteran: I passed it.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: That’s all I can say.
Interviewer: Did you have to stay till five a lot? Or did you usually go to three?
Veteran: It’s, it’s not like you’re, it’s not like something you actively learn, you almost passively
learned this stuff, so I don’t even remember,
(18:03)
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: It’s just day to day you did what you had to do.
Interviewer: It would seem like something that would just drive you crazy after a while that’s
just this constant,
Veteran: You know it, you would think it does, but it really didn’t, it’s kinda like music in a
sense,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But you’re sitting there listening to it come across and you’re not actively thinking
about it, it’s like driving a car.
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: And you can actively think about it if you need to you do, but most of the time you’re
thinking about other things.
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: In between, its,
Interviewer: Alright so what were you really being trained for once you have this skill what are
you gonna do with it?
�Veteran: Well what you do, had a listening post all over the world and you would go sit in a
listening post with a radio or two radios and you would listen to conversation, to transmissions,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And they’re sending it by hand, its still hand done with a Morse, hand key code,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, the other thing is that the Morse person sending the Morse has his own signature,
the way they send
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You can pick out signatures, you can pick up one person from the other and that’s part
of it, and a buddy of mine, I got, we applied for OCS, a buddy from North Carolina, anyway, I
got selected for OCS and he didn’t and he went to Turkey and he was listening and he was able
to pick up the same operator on different time zones on time, day time is over here and night
time is over there and sometimes you use that as intel,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was basically Army intelligence,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: Then, but that’s what I did.
Interviewer: Okay,
But I’ve never used it which is probably a good thing.
(20:00)
Interviewer: Alright so your, so when do you finish at Fort Devens then?
Veteran: I reported in December of 66 to OCS
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Let me say this too, while I was there, what they did when we applied for OCS, is they
put us into Delta Company, the training company, so most, most of the other companies were
classes, I mean the classes would be together,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And but the people who were in, who applied for OCS got moved out of there into
Delta Company, and we were in the Honor Guard, so in addition to training, we got to march in
parades and do extra stuff, and shine boots more, and be inspected more, and shine floors and
stuff like that, preparing us for OCS supposedly, but the main thing was we had a little scarf
instead of a, so what it was called the Honor Guard and,
Interviewer: I guess while you were at Fort Devens, I mean when you’re not training, I mean
Veteran: Mm-hmm
Interviewer: Could you go off the base and go into town, or do other stuff?
Veteran: If you had a pass you did, if you were allowed a pass, and most of the time we were,
town wasn’t very far away, wasn’t a very big town there,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: It wasn’t very big but, or could go into, to Boston but that was expensive, we didn’t
make a lot of money,
Interviewer: A lot of money okay,
Veteran: Although I was gonna tell you too that, that Tommy Franks and I were PFCs together
up there, if you read Franks’s book, he talks about Sam Long, Sam Long was our sergeant in
charge of our, the honor guard,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, Alright
Veteran: Anyway, I think he was actually a corporal but, but he was, he was God to us, he had
that kind of control, and our sergeant major was named Scaglioni, big Italian guy.
Interviewer: Alright, so now you go down to OCF, that’s Fort Benning Georgia?
(22:00)
Veteran: No, Fort Sill Oklahoma.
Interviewer: Oh, Fort Sill Oklahoma, you were in artillery OCS.
Veteran: That’s correct
Interviewer: Okay so you’re at Fort Sill,
Veteran: Now having said that, and what you just said, makes me think you’ve been in, doing
infantry guys and infantry guys tend to leave out the rest of us, especially artillery.
�Interviewer: Well I’ve talked to artillery guys too, I just had to back up and remember but,
Veteran: That’s alright
Interviewer: But, but I talked to, but there are more infantry than there are artillery,
Veteran: Definitely more, well let me tell you what, when I ended up being rifted [usually
“riffed”: demoted when fewer officers were needed], there were more artillery guys rifted than
there were infantry guys, they ended up in artillery with a gap in your groups because of the rift,
okay, but whatever that’s worth,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Not much but,
Interviewer: Alright so off to Fort Sill with you,
Veteran: Alright were in Fort Sill,
Interviewer: Fort Sill
Veteran: Got into Fort sill, let me think about that one for a minute, I can’t remember how I got
there, we are in the, called the Robinson barracks, but Robinson barracks was an area not a single
barracks,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: At least not when I was there, and then they, they, it was, you started out, it was what
six months long, you started out as they would give you a hard time, under-class,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Middle-class, upper-class, they had it divided into three, three groups, upperclassmen
had like horseshoes on their heels, on the bottoms of their heels so they click when they walked,
you watched, you watched out for upperclassmen, typical stuff just a lot of harassment, a lot of
push-ups, you just do it okay, I mean just do it and go on with life,
Interviewer: So, could the upperclassmen tell you to do push-ups
(24:01)
Veteran: Yes
Interviewer: or things like that?
�Veteran: Middle-classmen could tell you to do push-ups, and I, but they were really there for
guide, to guide us and help us, and then you had a, a faculty officer who advised ya and told you
things, don’t think I got much out of him but that’s beside the point,
Interviewer: Did you ever have a lot of classroom work?
Veteran: A lot, that was mostly classroom, so you had the company area and that kind of stuff to
shine ya shoes and whatever,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then you had classes, and the classes were very much like classes except you, our
gunnery professor, I remember him throwing chalk at people when they give him the wrong
answer but other than that it was pretty much the same, he was a good guy to, he was, heck of a
guy.
Interviewer: So, it was a lot of math and calculation for,
Veteran: Yup
Interviewer: Like trajectories?
Veteran: We had, we had health and survey, you had to learn survey, that was a biggie, gunnery,
you know where you figure, where you calculate and how you do this laying the firing battery,
how you lay the battery, and aimon circle is what we used to lay it with, and the guns we went
through the guns, and the gun positions, we went through maintenance, the maintenance stuff
went through that, and at that time the maintenance well, didn’t have a problem in, with that
there, and they didn’t have a problem, the Army at that time had a maintenance problem and the
maintenance problem was that they had a maintenance system that they bought into, there was
more work than doing the maintenance, okay, and they should have taken it all out and thrown
them away, and start over again, and maintenance warrants, warrant officers were really glorified
sergeants,
(26:02)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Now today you would find warrant officers throughout the military, Army, Navy, all of
them I think have warrant officers, and they’ve, they changed that status, but until more modern
times, you’d say warrant officer and I’d say poo okay, except for the pilots, the pilots were also
warrant officers, because most of them were motor sergeants,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But, I’ll talk about that later, but that’s after Vietnam when I was in Germany for
instance,
�Interviewer: Okay, alright so
Veteran: Alright yeah, go ahead and get me back on, on track.
Interviewer: Yeah, we’ll go, okay yeah so just kinda talk about the sort of curriculum or
whatever,
Veteran: Am I ok, I’m wiggling around my chair so,
Interviewer: You’re fine, you’re all in the shots so
Veteran: Okay
Interviewer: No problem with that, so we kind of going through the curriculum I guess of the
artillery OCS
Veteran: Yeah you had to learn it, you had to learn tactics, you had to learn how to give the fiveparagraph field order, you had to, all the artillery stuff,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Survey, surveys a biggie, Surveys a biggie because we operate, that allowed us being on
a survey grid, allowed you to coordinate artillery from different units in different places,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And then the gunnery, kamo, you had to learn it all, what you do if your track breaks,
Interviewer: Have to explain that
Veteran: Well if the track breaks, what do, what’d you gotta do
Interviewer: If the track breaks,
Veteran: Yeah, the track on, if you have a, a mechanized vehicle,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And you have, you’re out there on tracks,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: And if the track breaks, and they do break sometimes you gotta go in and repair,
somebody’s got to do it,
�(28:01)
Veteran: So we didn’t actually do it, we supervised it
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: Stand there
Interviewer: Because some of the artillery was self-propelled,
Veteran: Some was,
Interviewer: And so that would have tracks, and did you also have vehicles that would tow guns
that were tracked, or was that not something you had?
Veteran: No, I don’t think there were any, any tracked to any, track vehicles other than some of
the howitzers
Interviewer: Alright
Veteran: And then we had towed guns that were towed but, mostly by truck,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm alright and then did you spend time out in the field like with, on a firing
range, with, actualing firing guns?
Veteran: Yes, we did, you did every position multiple times and you were forward observer and
you were bi-direction officer and you, you fulfilled the role of, in almost every position,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, okay so how long did this school last?
Veteran: It was, let me see, we, I graduated when it started in December, graduated in May the
29th.
Interviewer: Okay so you’ve now been in, in the Army almost a year and a half at this point,
Veteran: That’s right,
Interviewer: Okay, and having completed that, now what happens to you?
Veteran: Hey I’m a second lieutenant, and I went, I was selected because of my academic score,
now you have to remember, I came from my, my father was a city policeman in Spartanburg
South Carolina, okay
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: We didn’t really have any, any connections anywhere,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: One of my classmates had connections somewhere and I never have figured out where
or who, I think he was a spy maybe, yeah, I don’t know, but he had connections. And
Interviewer: So, you said,
Veteran: The other thing I was very shy, since then I have kissed the Blarney stone and I can talk
at into an item, but at that time I was very shy,
(30:00)
Veteran: And so I wasn’t terribly outspoken but, we were going to graduation and as I came up
to get my certificate, the officer they brought in says well how does it feel to be the number one
academically, that’s the first time I knew I was number one academic, I said no you must be
talking about Haynes this other guy,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But it wasn’t, it was me, alright
Interviewer: Alright
Veteran: So, I didn’t know that, but I was,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Number one academically and, I was selected for Air Defense at that time the branches
were together, Army and Air Defense were one branch, so I went into, I went to Fort Bliss Texas
to learn about homing all the way killer missiles
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Hawk,
Interviewer: Hawk Missiles okay,
Veteran: Hawk Missiles, 33 kilometers range, anyway and then I went to, I have to grin because
I’m sitting there thinking about, you have, in artillery you have to shoot move and communicate,
those are the three things that you do alright, and Hawk missiles, we have the same mission,
shoot move and communicate, we could shoot I couldn’t guarantee we could communicate or,
and we should couldn’t move,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Alright but that’s a different story, that was in Germany afterwards, anyway I went to,
went to Fort Bliss and I went to Germany,
Interviewer: How long were you in Fort Bliss?
Veteran: Two months maybe
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Wasn’t very long
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright and then Germany
Veteran: And Germany and I was in Wurzburg Germany, I was with six for the fift-, I think I
told you 54th,
(32:00)
Veteran: But I think its 6th of the 52nd , Bravo Battery, 6th of the 52nd and we were in housing
was in Wurzburg, but we were in, was an airfield just north of there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Can’t think of the name of the town, I was up there and why I say that is because we got
there and all the priority had been going to Vietnam,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: this was not a division asset, this was a higher-level asset
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: and their vehicles wouldn’t move, the highest you could order any parts was a 12,
which meant you never got anything, no kidding, I mean you’re protecting the entire area, it’s
like it’s like you prioritize the local sheriff instead of the FBI,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, different story, and it’s a pet peeve,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I got ended up being, motor officer dealing with things and it just didn’t work, the
other thing is and your trying to align things, it was electronic, everything was electronic,
everything was subject to the weather, we were, the weather was terrible, the whole time I was
there, I mean when I got there they told me, they said we had summer on Wednesday this year so
�the next year or next spring, here comes, we had a week of beautiful weather in April, it was
perfect spring weather in April and that was summer,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and in Germany things don’t work well in cold, electronics don’t work well in
the cold, and we had statuses, we had different statuses with the Hawks and if you were on a five
minute status, the highest priority we had was five minute status, and you had to have missiles
ready to launch,
(34:05)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Lit going in five minutes, you called and five minutes later you had to be able to launch,
and that was a tough status to maintain, especially in the middle of the night in the cold, and
most of the troops you had were rejects form the other, the other Army,
Interviewer: Alright well did you have some people with, with technical knowledge and
specialization? I mean was there some kind of core of people who were competent or was this
just a place where,
Veteran: We had,
Interviewer: People wound up?
Veteran: No, we had people who were, who worked on missiles, we had warrant officers who
worked on missiles,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And these warrant officers were probably the best that I saw, they were definitely better
that motor warrants,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Because motor warrants tended to be, sergeants
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and I don’t mean to be ugly about it that’s just the way I see them, anyway, but
so they knew more, the whole thing was just kind of, to make a long story short, about this, when
they separated the branches, they separated air defense from field artillery in Germany I went
with field artillery, I think I was the only one, but I did, I had enough of ‘em
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, well how long were you with air defense?
�Veteran: Two years.
Interviewer: Okay now what was life in Germany like? Outside of the job.
Veteran: Well, truth of the matter it wasn’t much outside of the job,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Okay,
Interviewer: Did you not go out, go off the base much or?
Veteran: I didn’t get off the base and I didn’t get off the air base very much at all, okay, you, I, I
was on, you had to have an officer on the, on the site
(36:03)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We had a barracks down below, down at, by the river,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we had the site up on the hill, and my job was up on the hill okay, and we had
three, no four officers, should have had four officers and two warrant officers, so we had battey
commander and an XO and then two other officers, okay and we lost, we only had four, they
moved people around and we ended up with, with battery commander, XO, and me for a long
time and then they finally got another one, but the XO says I gotta be down here, well you can’t
leave,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You’re stuck on that mountaintop,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: You got, somebody’s gotta be there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then the other thing would happen when, and some, they would pull night duty but
then they wanted to talk about things like more, like what’s happening with the motor stuff and
you’d end up leaving late, it was a nightmare for me, I, I, if you told me I had to do that again I
tell you, there’s no way, I’d go to Vietnam twice before I did that,
�Interviewer: Okay so basically you were, you were working and sleeping and that was maybe
about it? Or not that much sleeping?
Veteran: That’s right, I wasn’t off very much, I got off, I remember it well but I got off for
Thanksgiving, okay, in Wurzburg Germany because my wife was, we were newly married, I got
married right after I got out of OCS and we went, we went to a pet shop and bought a puppy
alright, that’s why I remember I got off for thanksgiving,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I hated that
Interviewer: Now did you live on the base or off it?
Veteran: I lived on the base, but it wasn’t, not, not where I stayed,
(38:01)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Now where I worked,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: You had to go down the hill, down the river, through town and up on the other hill,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was, what’s the name of the barracks I can’t remember the name of the barracks, the,
Third Division, the Rock of The Marne, what is it, Third Division?
Interviewer: Could be
Veteran: Yeah, their headquarters was over there
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And that’s where our barracks, that’s where our quarters were
Interviewer: Okay now could your wife stay with you or did she have to be in town or what was,
Veteran: She was there, she was
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Over in our apartment,
�Interviewer: Okay, okay so you had, there were basically married officers’ quarters or something
Veteran: Yes
Interviewer: Like that
Veteran: There were,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Started out on the economy and we were in upstairs of a German house for a while and
then we went into temporary quarters for a while and then permanent quarters, then they decided
to move, change that particular building to NCO quarters and we moved again and all this was
going on at the same time so it was kind of, nonsense
Interviewer: Yeah so what was lifelike for your wife at that point?
Veteran: Not very good, I wouldn’t think it was very good
Interviewer: But did she have a job or did she
Veteran: No, she didn’t have a job, she could drive, and she had a lot of free time cause I wasn’t
there, I don’t know, you know I, I
Interviewer: So how long in total was your tour in Germany that time? That was, was it three
years or did you just do
Veteran: Well I was there and then they transferred me to 69th group, which was also there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay and I was there for, when did I leave, let me think for a second, I was there until I
got orders for, for Vietnam
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Then I went back through Fort Sill for a month, probably had a month’s leave,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(40:04)
Veteran: And I went back anyway so its several months there,
Interviewer: Okay so when did you leave Germany then?
�Veteran: That’s what I was trying to think it was, that was a, ’69, it was in, it was 29,
Interviewer: Sort of early ’69?
Veteran: Early ‘69
Interviewer: Okay, alright so you go back,
Veteran: Well yeah, my son was, my son, my son had to be a month old, he was born in
February, so it was March of ’69
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Or April, around March I think,
Interviewer: Alright and so now you got orders for Vietnam,
Veteran: Yup
Interviewer: So, where does your wife go?
Veteran: We bought a house and during the leave time we bought a house, she went in with her,
her parents while we were doing that we stayed with her parents or my parents back and forth,
they’re both in Spartanburg and then she had the house,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: She had a lot to deal with, with the house and no furniture and all that stuff and, and I’m
on my way to Vietnam, I’m, yep
Interviewer: Alright now when you went through Fort Sill, did they do anything for you to
prepare you for Vietnam or?
Veteran: That was the purpose of what they were doing and we had some things, we’d go out,
they had a, a firebase laid out on the ranges and, so a lot of the guys that were through there had
been to Vietnam already, some had and they had comments about the way the firebases were laid
out,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Just took it all in I mean what can you say we, we shot and it was the first time I shot an
M16, they’d go out there to the range and they had some enlisted guys out there shooting and
they left their rifles there and we got down and shot two magazines full,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And that was it, I’ve been trained in basic training on the M14,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: Okay so I was familiar with that one but the M16 I wasn’t,
(42:00)
Veteran: And so then I get to Vietnam and I’m issued an M16, and I was the senior, I was the
first lieutenant and I was a senior first lieutenant, actually should’ve made captain the day I got
there but, it didn’t catch up with me till later
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: So anyway, they, I remember it well, having to carry the M16 to my, my M16 was
dirty, I didn’t, didn’t know how to deal with it, didn’t know how to clean it, one of the guys, I
was doing something and I asked him to hold it and he cleaned it for me, said sorry this was
awfully dirty so I don’t know how to, so he showed it to me, showed me one of, one of you know
18 year old kid and he showed me how to do it, and after that I cleaned it every day, and I
cleaned my ammunition every other day, cause I didn’t want it jamming,
Interviewer: Okay but that part was after you got to Vietnam, right?
Veteran: After I got to Vietnam
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: That was while we were in country trying, go ahead
Interviewer: Okay so were gonna go back, so you have your or-, Vietnam orientation course or
whatever,
Veteran: Right
Interviewer: At Fort Sill and,
Veteran: Right
Interviewer: That kind of thing and you experimented with the M16,
Veteran: Then I had to leave and
Interviewer: Yup
�Veteran: Then I, so I left from, I can’t remember the date, but I left from Greenville Spartanburg
and flew to Atlanta,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And in Atlanta we changed planes, got on the right plane, there was a, another
lieutenant, and there was a warrant officer there who were going to the same place,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Going to, Oakland Army Airfield,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: So it turns out the lieutenant was reporting in early, and we didn’t know that at the time
he was flying but we flew, flew out there and they, the plane was delayed, they were working on
the plane, I remember it still because, my sister lived in Atlanta and, in Atlanta area and she
came down to the airport and in those days they let her come in,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: She came in and we talked, and we talk and then she’d go out and then she’d come back
in and I kept wanting to go and just, I’ve already committed myself psychologically, let’s just get
this thing over with,
(44:01)
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: And, finally we took off, we, we took off at three, three o’clock, and we got there a
three o’clock, and that’s the only time I’ve made, I don’t know how fast we were flying, they
said we had a tailwind and they I don’t know if they have speed limits in the air or not, but I’ve
never had, I’ve never made that trip that fast again,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Okay, but I remember we left at three and we got there at three and you got the threehour difference so,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm right, yeah because I think in that area three hours from Chicago to the
west coast was good, so from Atlanta would be that much better,
Veteran: Right
Interviewer: Okay, Alright so you go, so you’re in, you’re processing out of Oakland,
�Veteran: Yep and we get, so we get, get into the airport and we go, well not to Oakland we’re
getting out of the airport and we go, you had to walk two blocks and we saw the, the little
Berkeley girls, don’t go, don’t go, all that stuff so but we go and we get on a bus, and the bus
goes takes us out there and as you’re going you see Alcatraz off in the, in the bay out there and
we go over to, to Oakland and report in and, what’s his name, anyway, the warrant officer and I
went to the officers club and had a surf-and-turf, came back, had to report in I think at 8:00 we
report in and we get seated and we fly, fly first to Alaska, I think it was Fairbanks,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And why we went to Alaska, I have no idea,
Interviewer: Well a lot of them went through Anchorage,
Veteran: Maybe its Anchorage,
Interviewer: That’s more, a little farther south and on the coast,
Veteran: Maybe its Anchorage,
Interviewer: Yeah cause it’s the, the northern circle, its shorter
Veteran: It probably was Anchorage, I don’t know we didn’t get out
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You could see snow out there, out the window but they didn’t let us out, something
went on up front, and in the first-class section I don’t know who was in the first-class section, but
I wasn’t
(46:00)
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I know that, anyway we go and then flew from there to Hawaii, and I think he name
was Al it seems like, anyway he kept talking about Mai Tai’s, and I never had a Mai Tai, so we
were gonna get Mai Tai’s and oh we got to Hawaii at 3:00 in the morning, and bars were all
closed so we didn’t get any Mai Tai’s, and we flew, I think we stopped again, I’m thinking we
stopped, we either stopped on Okinawa or Guam,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I can’t remember which one, I mean Guam was, I can’t remember, we stopped on
Okinawa or Guam and we did get out of the aircraft but we couldn’t take pictures of the flight
line because they’re active, I didn’t know we could take pictures of the flight line, well we
�couldn’t, we were confined into this little area and it was hot and they put us back on the plane
and we went to Vietnam,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, and where did you land in Vietnam?
Veteran: Tonsonut
Interviewer: Okay that’s outside of Saigon, alright, what’s your first impression of Vietnam
when you get there?
Veteran: Alright, I come from Germany and then come through the states, and come through
Fort Sill, and it’s still springtime, I’m not really acclimatized to hot weather, you think about
Germany where you can wear a coat every day,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And not feel uncomfortable, first thing was the heat,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So they roll ahead, these roll upstairs that came in and the first thing they open the
doors and the heat just comes in, whoosh, that’s the first thing, then the stink it smelled like, and
you don’t notice it so much anymore cause they built in a lot of the marshes around our beaches,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It used to be like when we’d go to Myrtle Beach you get down near the coast you had
that rotten vegetation smell,
(48:04)
Veteran: I mean again they filled in a lot of those and they have condominiums and stuff in there
now so you don’t have that smell but, that’s what it was like,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, that’s the closest I can come to describing it, but it was a distinct odor, and the
other thing about that, later you got used to that and it didn’t bother you, you weren’t so much
aware of it but you still could smell the villages and the people, villages you could, was a
different smell,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But that hit you, and instantly you were wet, we had to walk 100 meters, and have a
formation 100 meters away from the plane roughly, and you thought you were gonna die from
breathing the hot air coming in your lungs and I was constantly, I was wet, totally,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Sweating, and that little walking struggling with my duffel bag anyway, then they put
us, put us on I can’t remember, buses, put us on buses, and we went to,
Interviewer: Usually its Long Binh or Bien Hoa,
Veteran: That was at, Tan Sonh Nhut was right by Bien Hoa,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: We went to Long Binh, to the processing company,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And these buses had the windows, they had, grates over the windows, and the glass was
mostly knocked out, they’ve been in rock fights I reckon,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t know, anyway, but we made it over there alright, went to the replacement
company and they did this and they did that, main thing we do is went into the officer’s club and
drank beer,
Interviewer: Right, now did you have orders yet for a particular unit or?
Veteran: No
Interviewer: Were you gonna get those,
Veteran: That’s where I got them,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: They gave us our clothes, we had some briefings I don’t remember much what, like I
say most of the things was,
(50:01)
Veteran: Most of the officers went to the house just to drink beer
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And it was, we got two pair of boots and, four sets of uniforms, whatever else we got I
don’t remember, don’t remember, and then, hell I remember what they gave me, because I
�almost lost it, anyway, we moved us then to the, next day, moved us to Bien Hoa, which was the
rear area for the 101st at that time,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we had P-training, country training and basically it was to allow you to acclimatize
to the area, but they also had some other things, they had some displaces booby traps and
different things, scenarios and, about ambushes and stuff like that,
Interviewer: Did they teach you anything about the local culture or how to behave there or what
to stay away from?
Veteran: No
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Don’t remember it,
Interviewer: Alright
Veteran: If they did, I don’t remember it,
Interviewer: Alright
Veteran: Having said that, it would have been a waste of time, frankly for 101st it was a waste of
time, most of us anyway
Interviewer: Because 101st wasn’t operating in populated areas or?
Veteran: No, we weren’t, most, well there were a few units that were, but I never was,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, I don’t remember anything,
Interviewer: Okay, just asking
Veteran: If they did, I forgot it but,
Interviewer: Alright,
Veteran: They taught us how to shoot M16, and I remember that well, I remember we were, they
taught us the point and shoot method, it was a NCO, this bug black NCO from Fort Benning and
I don’t know if he developed it, but he was the one that instructed us, and he was showing us
how to shot, basically M16 is a straight line, the whole thing comes back in a straight line, so all
you do is, you’re used to pointing things,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: you grab, the front grip and your rifle and you point and pull the trigger, and where
you’re pointing is where its gonna go, it’s pretty accurate, really for close shooting its very
accurate,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: and he talked, we had to think about shooting laying down and we did it in the daytime,
we did it in the night, they threw, we threw hand grenades, don’t remember much else besides
that, I mean there’s some things I remember, I remember the NCO, we got there at night and
they had, a female officer I think she was a nurse but I wouldn’t swear to it, a female officer
showed up, a more senior officer at least a major, major lieutenant colonel,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Something she had wings, but anyway and this guy was instructing us, telling us before
it’d been all men and he was talking about, you lay down like this and you couldn’t see, put one,
one ball on top of the other would, as he, somebody was, one of ‘em whispered to him and said
you put on testicle on top of the other, anyway I remember that to this day.
Interviewer: Alright, so you’ve got your, your sort of orientation,
Veteran: Right, yup,
Interviewer: And now where was the 101st operating the time you went there?
Veteran: In the, they, at that time they were having, hamburger hill I guess,
Interviewer: Okay and for people who aren’t aware of the nickname, what part of South Vietnam
was that in?
Veteran: Very, almost in, in I Corps, north, northern part of South Vietnam,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Northwestern Part of South Vietnam,
(54:00)
Interviewer: Yeah, kind of, of in, in the mountains, kind of close to the border,
Veteran: Yes
Interviewer: With Laos,
�Veteran: That’s very much so,
Interviewer: Okay, and Hamburger Hill, the major battle was very costly that went on for an
extended period of time, so that’s going on when you get there?
Veteran: I don’t know if it was or not,
Interviewer: Or,
Veteran: I wasn’t, I wasn’t personally listening to the news okay,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: I don’t know when it,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: I mean I just know that it was happening because I ended up being a replacement for
Hamburger Hill,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And that was one of the motivating factors for getting me,
Interviewer: Okay so what unit of the 101st were you assigned to?
Veteran: Well, we went, let me finish my story,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: By going north, we end up, we go, we fly up to Cam Ranh Bay I think, we fly to Cam
Ranh Bay,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then we have a truck to go up to Camp Eagle,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I had my, I had my helmet in my bag with my stuff and it got switched with
somebody else’s, and they, somebody had to find it then we got it switched out, anyway, it got
switched, got straightened out, so I ended up with a helmet and didn’t have to go the whole year
without a helmet, which is a good thing probably, although I never got hit on my head, but went
to, we flew up to, to camp, no we drove up from Cam Ranh Bay to Camp Eagle,
�Interviewer: That’s kind of a long trip isn’t it? Cause you got to go over, through, or did you, or
through Da Nang, cause Da Nang is closer to Hue, Phu Bai where Camp Eagle is, now you could
have, there is, you could take highway 1, you could drive from Cam Ranh Bay,
Veteran: Well let me, now I’m not sure,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I know we drove for a ways,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: And I was thinking it was Cam Ranh Bay that we were at,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Cause coming back out, I know coming back from, coming back from R and R, we
land, I land, ended up landing at Cam Ranh bay and caught a flight,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Up to Eagle
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Because we went out over the, I think it was in, I don’t remember,
Interviewer: Driving from Da Nang was pretty common, driving from Cam Ranh was a lot less
common because Cam Ranh Bay was pretty far away,
Veteran: It might have been, might have been Da Nang I don’t know,
Interviewer: But anyway, a place on the coast,
Veteran: We drove
Interviewer: And you drove,
Veteran: We drove in a truck and we, yeah anyway, we went up there, so I got into, I remember
spending the night there and reported to the, DIVARTY, I don’t remember where to,
Interviewer: Divisional Artillery,
Veteran: Right,
Interviewer: Yeah
�Veteran: And they sent me out, they did whatever paperwork they’re gonna do and, which I
don’t really remember and, and then they sent me, they sent me for a day out to, Currahee on the
valley floor,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then came back and I was assigned to second of the three nineteenth and went up
there and reported in and had to go out to, the colonel was out to Eagles’ Nest and I went there
and he assigned me to, had a choice of being a forward observer or a fire direction officer and I
chose being a fire direction officer, I was really not in great shape, physical shape,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I did that and, I had to fly back, flew to, the battery, bravo battery on Bastogne
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: And I reported to, I reported to Captain Davis and Captain Scales was there already,
because I remember him telling me to go, to go report to him,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So Davis was the commander, but Scales was there,
Interviewer: And was Scales replacing Davis or?
Veteran: Scales was, it was a transition, Scales was going to, but usually you do that with a
ceremony and,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That hadn’t happened yet,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Okay so, I was there and, so I was the fire direction officer, one of the fire directions
officers and JD Caldwell was the other one, and JD was, JD was a good guy, he’s a real right guy
but a good guy, but he was a pot smoker,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, I’m not going to talk about him pot smoking but, he didn’t do it around me, but I
knew he was doing it on the firebase,
Interviewer: Okay
�Veteran: I always thought he did his job, but I was recently talking to one of my fire direction
guys this year in fact, and he said he was never there, he’s always, never in the thing, cause I
would go on, I was there
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He would come on and I’d go to sleep, we were on, we had a rotating schedule, eight on
and eight off,
Interviewer:
Mm-hmm
Veteran: And you’re never, basically you’re working or you’re sleeping,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: Because you never adjust to that schedule,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There’s just no spare time, anyway, but I didn’t,
Interviewer: So, if the officer isn’t there, do the enlisted men just do the work?
Veteran: Yeah, see you had, you had to have a fire direction officer there when the guns, when
they were firing,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And that was, that was a requirement, you could sometimes, they would, if you had a
lot of interdiction fires, fires that you, where you do the mission, you plot them out and they
would just fire them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: On schedule, but other than that, especially if you had a, a contact mission, you had to
have the officer there, he’s basically saying they’ve got his initials on every one of those rounds
that goes out,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And if something goes wrong, he’s the one they’re gonna hank,
(1:00:00)
Veteran: Anyway, where was I, talking about, about getting there,
�Interviewer: You, you got there, you got out to Bastogne and you’re, so this is a firebase, this is
along the, is it like along the one side of the A Shau Valley that its,
Veteran: Yeah, it’s along the east side of A Shau,
Interviewer: Yup
Veteran: It was right across from Hamburger Hill
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We were at about the same altitude, it was maybe a few meters, a few feet shorter,
especially since they blew the top of it off,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But we were at a thousand feet, Keer, he was in the valley floor, Eagle’s Nest was about
twelve hundred feet, and then Airborne, I’m not sure what altitude was for airborne, everyone
was at Tiger Mountain and, before I got there, I think May the twelfth, they had had, they had
been overrun,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and some of my guys were there, they had part of the guns from Bravo up there,
and part of the fire direction team and the whole thing, and anyway, I went to this year, to
reunion, fiftieth reunion in Clarksville where those guys,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: From that base being overrun, but it happened before I got there,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: I was in the battery for four days and we had a sapper attack, you’ll hear about
Bastogne being overrun, and I guess technically we were overrun, I think, I think of being
overrun and that you’re put out of business,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We were never put out of business,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: Okay, we had them in the battery area,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But they were never put out of business, I’d gotten off at midnight, though let me back
up a little bit,
(1:02:00)
Veteran: the day before in the afternoon the day before, I’d been out down on the landing pad on
Bastogne
Interviewer: Okay, I’m gonna pause right here because this,
*Screen goes black*
Veteran: What am I gonna talk about?
Interviewer: Okay so you were gonna tell the story for the attack on Bastogne when you were,
Veteran: Okay, on Bastogne, I got to the battery and I reported in, I reported to Captain Davis
who was the battery commander,
Interviewer: Yup
Veteran: Then Captain Scales was also there, and he said report to him,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And Scales says no report to him, Sergeant Brown was there to, the first sergeant,
anyway, and I was the fire direction officer, the other fire direction officer was JD Caldwell,
Interviewer: Right, you talked a little bit about him already, alright
Veteran: And JD was an experienced guy if you read the report, I didn’t realize that he had been
the guy that organized the resistance and organized the, to firebase airborne, he was a guy that
organized everybody and got them going and got them responding to the attack,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So that’s, I didn’t know that, never knew that until just recently,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, he was the other one, and I had been on, we were working eight on and eight
off, I had been on until midnight and I was in bed asleep and he came back there and it’s one,
one-thirty, in that general time frame, I wasn’t really watching my watch, but he said you might,
�might outta get up, we might be being moored, anyway let me go, let me back up because I
didn’t tell you about seeing the guys out, outside the wire,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The night before I’d been down on the, the VIP pad, we had two landing pads, and
Bastogne basically was kind of like that,
(1:04:01)
Veteran: And you had a landing pad down here where the VIP’s came in and the one over here
was a supply pad,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Where all our supplies came in, and then they kinda went up to the right and there was
another hill over there, we were on top of the mountain, we’re on the very top, half way down
between here and the VIP pad was the brigade talk, and there was also an infantry, battalion talk,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There was at least one, there may have been two, but I know there was one, and over
there somewhere they had, ARVN liaison people,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, there were some ARVN’s on the base, anyway I would have been down, and you
have to figure the firebase, there’s not a lot of room,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There’s not a lot of places you can go, and I was down on the, on the VIP chopper, pad,
looking around and I see these two Vietnamese out there, its, the wire’s here and they’re out just
beyond the wire or in the wire, and they saw me looking and they waved at me and I waved back
at them, and I turned to an infantry solider who was standing there and asked him, do we have
Vietnamese working outside the wire, and we look back around there and they’re gone,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And he reported it, he did report it and, and I was green, I was brand new to war,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, that night this happened, and so they, JD came back and told me to get up and
I started getting up and I, I slept in my underwear and I had everything laid out I could get
�dressed in the dark and didn’t have any problem with that getting dressing, but I was, I dressed
and came out before I,
(1:06:00)
Veteran: Before I got out while I was dressing, excuse me, Barroom, Barroom, Barroom, excuse
me, and what they, what had happened was they, there was a guy had thrown three satchel
charges trying to get in, into the commanders, battery commanders, into the hooch,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Our, our, we were set up with a, it was a cut through the top of the mountain,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we had PSP on top of that and sandbags and, and on our end of it we had a
CONEX, one of those small CONEX’s, that had our fire direction stuff in it, our radios and the
two computers set inside there and then the charts were outside there, and then we had it blocked
off except for a doorway, to get through and then we slept behind that and there it was totally
blocked off between us and the, the battery commander, and then, the, everything went wild,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: I mean,
Interviewer: So, sappers had gotten in the wire,
Veteran: The sappers were not only in the wire, they were on, the first one that I know was
killed, was killed right up, over the top of me, almost over the top of me,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It’s like, if this is where I was laying, right over you was where he was killed,
Mm-hmm
Veteran: And when you stood up, I could reach the thing, so it was, distance wise, straight-line
distance is less than ten feet,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, from me
Interviewer: Yeah
�Veteran: But he was on top, we had PSP set up between, but he was, the theory is that he was
coming, to give us one of those satchel charges I don’t know if he was or not but, you didn’t
make it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: DeWitt Williams was captain and he was the artillery liaison officer with the third
brigade, and DeWitt was coming in at that time, had been down in the talk and was coming back
to, to sleep, he was, had been sleeping with,
(1:08:00)
Veteran: The, the battery commander, and, in his hooch,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So he was coming back there to sleep and he saw this guy and he shot him, he also saw
another guy because that night they were having a big poker game at the XO’s hutch, can’t
remember the XO’s name, Tom something or other, maybe Meyer, not sure, anyway our XO, but
they were having a poker game and my chief computer was over there, the guy that, that the
senior fire direction NCO,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Was over there, he was coming back, but DeWitt saw him as he paused on a wall, the
wall that separated us from the battery itself, on top,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Separated the battery, he paused on that and DeWitt shot him through both calves,
alright, so he’s crawling along and we’re in the dark up by the entranceway, I’ve been shot,
where, I don’t know, that sounds odd but it’s really true, so he’s crawling in and he falls off the
door, we come out the door and we had steps, you had a blast wall, and he had steps to go up, up
to the right, up to the top, well he came along right over the door and fell in and broke his
collarbone, so he, so we get him in and he’s sitting there in one of the chairs and he’s counting
his money, and I don’t know how much money had made but he was a big winner in that game,
but he was a loser, I don’t know if he was a loser or not because he got shot through both calves
and he would have been back with us from those wounds, but he broke his collarbone and that
evacuated him back to the states,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
(1:10:00)
Veteran: Okay
�Interviewer: Alright, so that’s how this thing starts, so now what happens?
Veteran: We get out, we start changing the thing, we were never none functional, Scales came
into the, he was in the FTC and something came over the wire which I didn’t hear and he ran out
and he, at that point he had his M16 with him, he had the, cover guard, the hand guard on the
front of his M16 was on, he came back later and it was gone, it’d been blown off, he went into
the battery, over to the battery, to the guns,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the first gun, I’m calling it the first gun because it’s the first gun I came to but I
don’t know how they had them numbered, they may have had them numbered in a different way,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: But the gun, when you first, when you went you couldn’t get to the guns unless you
went over the wall but normally you went around by the, between the gun and the, and the
commanders hooch over here, so you went around and you went up, that guy, the gun, the gun
crew was the crew chief was short, a short timer,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we had started out with mortar rounds, or so they thought they were mortar rounds
at least, and he had his crew in the bunker, and Scales ran them all out because the bunkers not
where you wanna be, you need to be out, they had a, a fighting ditch and a parapet, a wall,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They come out and a guy pops up from behind there and shoots a rifle grenade, hits a
guy on the head, on his helmet and killed him, and he shot the next guy with a, his AK-47, with
bullets, killed him and he was shot a number of times
(1:12:00)
Veteran: And this kid ran out to the fighting wall and he laid a satchel charger on that kids leg
and he, his lap and blew his legs off, and our medic was over there treating that guy and they
were firing directly over him, ended up medic, ended up having his ear, ear drums blown out,
couldn’t hear anything, and there’s more about him later, let’s see what did I leave out, the three
blasts that I heard at the very beginning, Scales got out of the hut first,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then those three blasts, the first sergeant was trying to get out behind him, and he
got blown back, all three times, they blew away the blast wall, blast wall was gone but it did, its
purpose was to keep them out of the, out of the bunker,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: First sergeant tore down the wall between us that came out through the fire direction
center, came out through our, our area, they let’s see what else went on that night,
Interviewer: Now did you go to the fire direction center or were you,
Veteran: I went to the fire direction center and we went outside and it was a guy, it was a soldier,
enemy solider that came up, this was, this, there’s a gun parapet here, there’s just a walk way
between us but there’s a wall, but there’s just a walk way between us and then over there was
just with, you went off down the hill but there was a stump there still and this soldier came up
behind that stump, he shot an RPG over our heads which is probably a good thing because it
went over our heads and we, it could easily have killed us,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But it’s like shooting off a rock, a bottle rocket and, everybody was shooting at him and
he after a few minutes, he turned around and walked, went back,
(1:14:00)
Veteran: So, I don’t know if he didn’t, who knows what shape he’s in but,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But he went back, I remember going from there to the, it was a bunker on that side of
the base, on the east side of the base and I remember running from where I was to there and I felt
like one of those cartoon things where you know you are running but it’s like slow motion,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That’s what it felt like, and I was there for a while and things kinda settled down, but
we ended up, it’s interesting, interesting to watch things happen, before that I had noted already
that we had problems with people walking through the concertina wire,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Separating stuff off, there were paths through it
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And I’d, I’d try to get guys to work on it and they, you couldn’t get anybody to
constantly work on those, just stood there and supervised,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Anyway, afterwards you couldn’t get anybody to stop, but we got a fire mission you
gotta come down here, no I’m gonna finish this,
Interviewer: Do you know how many men you’re, they lost in that attack?
Veteran: I think we lost four and I think they lost, we, and in, in our battery, I think it was four
people,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And about eleven wounded, and then we were pretty close matched overall on the
firebase, there were a lot more killed on the firebase but it was a, I walked down to the, walked
down to the VIP pad, halfway down there, there was a human brain lying beside the trail, okay,
looked like intact but its,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Obviously not much in it but walked down to the,
(1:16:00)
Veteran: The pad and on the right side of the pad we had roles of concertina wire there, there was
a human body without a, a brain,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I think that he probably got hit by a fifty caliber, the battery owned a fifty caliber,
usually the infantry used it when they were there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But the battery owned a fifty caliber, they were supposed to have turned it in, but they
didn’t, changed it for sixty, and they got the, we had sixties,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But had that fifty caliber, I think that’s what happened to him,
Interviewer: This was a Vietnamese guy that was hit?
Veteran: Yes,
Interviewer: Okay,
�Veteran: Yes, it was, I don’t think that M60 would do that, but then you never know, there were,
you know you looked at the people, the, looking at the wounds that was my first experience
looking at wounds, it looked like little dark spots,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: About that big, about the end of your finger, on the other side it was huge,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They blew, blew the back out, we had it, we had, we killed at least two in the battery
area, it may have been more than that but I remember the two for sure, and then we lost, lost two
dead and several wounded, it seems like we lost up to four but I can’t remember for sure right
now,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: The field, first sergeant was wounded,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He was a, a, your field first sergeants like the, he ran the guns,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The XO runs the guns, the field first sergeant was his senior NCO, it’s all the, all the
gun sergeants report to him and they’ve got there crew, yeah the satchel charge went off beside
him, I think he probably lost some fingers but he wanted to be carried down on a stretcher, but
we put everybody on the VIP pad who had to be evacuated, and he wanted to be carried down
but the stretcher was down there already on somebody else on it, we got mad and got up and
walked down, showed them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, that’s the last I saw of him we had a new one later,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: But
Interviewer: So now you know you’re at war,
Veteran: Knew we were at war, it changed things too, they tell you, they tell you things they told
us when we came through different, we had a medic talk to us, we, Betty I think was the one that
told us this, said that you won’t believe your eyes, you won’t believe your eyes, you’ll check
everything, you’ll check everything, fell everything and check everything and I thought when
�she said it, this is not gonna be true, this is crazy, but when you actually, happened you didn’t
believe your eyes,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You felt everything okay, right here you know
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: you had to feel it as well and, and everything stopped, everything’s everyone,
everything stopped you were on a, on an adrenaline high, your adrenaline was there, you’d been
up for twenty-four hours roughly, and you were just on an adrenaline high until, until it stopped
sending you, go to sleep, well after, after the everything stopped, been stopped for thirty minutes
or so, then we could get medivacs in and had to been, I think it had to been thirty minutes at least
since the last round, before we get a medivac in, but we got all kinds of heli-, I think, helicopters
coming in, in and out of that VIP pad everybody running over there and get off and walk around
the base a little bit,
(1:20:00)
Veteran: And you’re back on so they could write up, get write up for a medal, it’s how they got
their medals, you think I’m kidding but I’m not,
Interviewer: No, that’s,
Veteran: You think I’m kidding but I’m not kidding, I don’t know how much money we spent if
you think about, now think about economics, I don’t know much money we spent just on, on
helicopter fuel just to get those VIP’s and get their,
Interviewer: Okay, so you get an air medal for flying in a place that’s a combat zone or,
Veteran: No
Interviewer: Where fighting is taking place,
Veteran: No, the way,
Interviewer: Or is it a combat infantry badge they’re after or?
Veteran: I don’t know, no I, seriously they probably put themselves in for a silver star, Okay, I’ll
tell you a story about that in a minute
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t know
�Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: what medals they put themselves in for, I really don’t but they came, that’s if you got a
desk job how are you gonna get a medal,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Alright, if you’re a staff officer, how are you gonna get a medal, and I’ll tell ya, another
anecdote when were off the air about someone who’s here
Interviewer: Alright, but in the meantime, you have the VIP’s going up and the wounded get
evacuated, and how much longer did you stay at that base after that event?
Veteran: Several months
Interviewer: Okay, so how do things change or what, what comes next now after?
Veteran: We had another attack later, we’ll let me tell you the rest of this story,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We pilled the bodies up on a, a cargo net, the Vietnamese bodies, I didn’t take any
pictures, I got pictures, actually pictures of some of the Vietnamese piled on a cargo net, I didn’t
take any pictures of American dead or wounded but I did take picture of Vietnamese wounded,
dead,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Didn’t take wounded but, they, they pile them up on a cargo net and,
(1:22:00)
Veteran: They haul that thing over the jungle and dropped them way they thought, intelligence
had that that’s the way they were gonna go, leave to the east of us,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I told you about the VIP’s command,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Well we had this helicopter come in and this guy got off and he didn’t have anything on
his jungle fatigues, he walked, didn’t have a hat on, he walked to the top of the hill which was
where we were, looked around like this, turned around, got back in his helicopter and left, three
months later one of the guys got, and at that time there was a Navy jet bombing to the east of us,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t know what he was bombing, I mean I have no idea, but when he, one of our
guys got a letter from his mother, it contained a newspaper clipping, air power saves
paratroopers, ya right,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The other thing was, today and the way we were fighting today, they fight a lot at night,
they have night-vision goggles and things where you can see at night, well we didn’t have those,
we fought, with, with our eyes, but we also had flares so we lit the night up,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We had flares from our guns, we had illumination rounds, they had flares from aircraft
you had hand flares, and from our base, the next morning from our base all the way to the ocean
was a line of parachutes from the flares that we had had,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You could see them it’s just like a, like, it’s almost like a, you think of an airshow, you
know with the balloons, it’s kinda like that, but it, these were just gonna fall somewhere, it was
a, it was, interesting night I’ll tell you what, and I have to think,
(1:24:00)
Veteran: Scales, I’m glad Scales was there, I thought Scales, I had blocks get, Davis out of my, I
think Davis probably had a, a nervous breakdown
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I think but I don’t know, I had blocked him out of my memory, I didn’t remember him
period,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Until I, I was talking, we were talking about the battle when I was visiting with the, the
two guys in my fire direction center,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Tom Jenkins and, and Michael Delaney or Stump, were two of the guys in our fire
direction center, and they were at this other meeting, the one from airborne, being overrun, we
were talking about this and they were telling me, remind me of Davis, I had, I, still there’s a
vague memory,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Not very clear, not something I kept around but, Bob got a Silver Star, and then he was,
he was the battery commander and he’s now a retired two-star general,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And shows up on Fox and Friends every once and a while, Fox News,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I saw him
Interviewer: Yeah, I remember him, and he was something of a talking head during the Iraq war
and,
Veteran: He had, is, I just saw him recently like within the week, I think, on, the noon thing that
they did, anyway he’s one of their talking heads, so, but he deserved that Silver Star,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: He’s one of the few that deserved a Silver Star, we had another one later, we was, we
were preparing to leave, and we had another separate attack which we call in the wire,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They had two mad minutes, one right after the other, had a mad minute, they reloaded,
and had another mad minute,
(1:26:00)
Veteran: And caught more people coming in the wire,
Interviewer: Okay, now explain for general audience what a mad minute is,
Veteran: Mad minutes, planned time when, on, on command or on signal everybody fires, they
throw grenades, they fire everything for a minute,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Then it stops, so I, at that point I was in bed also, this was 3:00 in the morning maybe, it
was before 5:00,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: Most things happen about 5:00 in the morning okay, right about the time the sun’s
fixing to come up,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They wanna hit right about then, and that’s when, usually when it happens, but I was in
bed and I heard the mad minute and I heard the second mad minute, and then I heard a machine
gun when the second one stopped, the machine gun didn’t,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I was awake and ready to go, that’s just conditioning,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And it, again we caught them out of the wire the second time, caught them in the wire
before they got into us, the first time they were already there, they were,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Some, my guys, one of my guys speculated that they were already there, that they were
part of the ARVN detachment, and I can’t tell you there were no okay, I wouldn’t tell you that
they’re not, but who knows,
Interviewer: Okay, so you mean for the first attack, when they were already inside,
Veteran: Yes, for when they were in the wire,
Interviewer: But that of course was also the thing where the concertina wire wasn’t in
particularly good condition and so forth the first time,
Veteran: No, this was internal, now not the external,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Because we had it around the outside,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: But, but you don’t want people running around,
(1:28:00)
Veteran: you want to guide where they go,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And so, just the internal concertina wire to, to guide people, yeah,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: That wasn’t in as good a shape,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: Anybody, you could get them to stop, it could get them to stop, we’ll put up a little
more concertina, it’s a, it’s a motivating factor I’ll tell you what,
Interviewer: But the second time though, now was the second mad minute, was the idea there
that, that if,
Veteran: I don’t know,
Interviewer: You had the first mad minute they might think that,
Veteran: I don’t know, they’d have a mad minute, they’d have a plan one, and I don’t know who
came up with the idea, there was an infantry company,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That was providing security,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: And I, I really don’t but it caught them off guard,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They had one than they waited,
Interviewer: Yup,
Veteran: Then the second one, and after the second one was over, there was a guy in a hole that
they’d seen go into a foxhole, it was a, a listening post that we’d had down outside the wire,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Was outside the wire but it was within sight of our bunkers, and they’d had a listening
post out there, but they’d recall people, didn’t have anybody in it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: It was empty, but the guys that had occupied it on that section had a bunker up there
they were in the bunker and I saw this guy go in, so I was over there and he says, hey lieutenant
we got on down here stuck in this, that, stuck in this hole, so we tried to get him to chieu hoi,
cause you know how much Vietnamese we knew which was about chieu hoi,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, so we yelled chieu hoi, chieu hoi, and nothing happens to them, so I grabbed,
I had a, a M79 grenade launcher, grabbed one from somebody,
(1:30:00)
Veteran: I don’t remember who I got it from, only had three rounds, and we had our kamo guy
was named Marion and Marion shot the M79 all night long for the whole time we was out there,
okay, so I figure Marion knows how to shoot this thing, so I told him, Marion put a round in that
hole down there, he took the M79, shot it and if the hole is right down here like in the parking
lot, he shot like we has shooting for the ball field okay, he didn’t have a clue how to shoot it
except to pop,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, I took it away from him, and there was, we had a behind our fire direction center,
we had a, a radio relay from special forces, two off, two NCOs,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And one of the guys took it and shot direct fire at the hole, hit the rim and this guy
comes out and he’s not chieu hoiing, he’s running, he’s gonna go home and he runs down and up
the other side, and he was running and he turned to run along the woods, well everybody, there is
no shooting going on, no artillery going on, so this guy is running and everybody is sitting there,
so everybody shoots him, it’s like a shooting gallery,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: pap, pap, pap, maybe a hundred guys shooting at him, I don’t know, a bunch, and of
course he’s, still trying to struggle so he’s, he’s down and let me tell you one thing, I don’t ever
wanna be shot by a high-powered rifle,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The human body wasn’t made to be shot by a, high-powered rifle, it acts like a rag doll,
really,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The guy was still struggling, wiggling, trying to crawl, and,
�(1:32:00)
Veteran: The SF sergeant shot him again with a M79, he stopped,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And everybody cheered, sounds cruel, sounds inhumane, but that’s kind of the stage we
were at,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We were kind of at an inhumane stage,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: We were, we were standing over there and I was, Scales in that same area, and Scales
was behind me, we were about this far apart,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Like you were Scales and I was standing here and we had been firing, having a
blocking fire, being fired into the jungle down there, and it’d been going on, a round went off, a
piece of shrapnel flew by my head, just, from this way, actually more this way, by my head and
there was a guy standing to the left over here and it hit him flat on the, on the leg, it was a piece
of shrapnel big as my, big as my arm,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: About like that and if it had hit him sideways it would have cut his head, his leg off,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: If it had hit me, it would cut my head off, that’s fate we stopped that from firing, we
stopped, called a, called a halt to that,
Interviewer: Yeah
Veteran: But you, have the feeling that somebody’s looking out for you, you know you get that,
the other thing you learn quickly is that no matter what you do, you become a fatalist to a point,
no matter what you do, you can’t protect yourself,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So you do what you can do and then you let fate take its place,
�Interviewer: It’s an effect that a lot of sliders talk about, if they see combat then you adjust to it
in some way so you can function, do your job,
(1:34:03)
Veteran: Well part of the thing is, it’s like fear, when I first got over there I was afraid alright,
and you can’t live in fear, you can’t function with fear, and eventually you either adjust to it or
you go crazy I guess, I don’t know, I adjusted to it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Doesn’t mean you’re not cautious, doesn’t mean you don’t do everything you can to
protect yourself, one of the things I did was make rules, I had rules about things, if I thought it
was bad, it was bad till I proved it wasn’t bad, okay that one of my rules it’s still one of my rules,
if I think it’s bad, its bad till I found out it’s not bad,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Or questionable, if it’s questionable its bad, yeah, let me think what else there to tell
you about,
Interviewer: Well, anything else from the time that, that you, you’re Bastogne, I mean what,
anything else from that or are those really the main things that stand out?
Veteran: That’s pretty much the main thing that was, we didn’t have, I don’t think we had any
wounded, if we did it was few,
Interviewer: Okay, another, now did you have a lot of fire missions from there?
Veteran: Oh, we fired all the time,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We, we, I was over there while we were on Bastogne, we fired the one millionth round,
before we left, we fired the two millionth round,
Interviewer: Just from that battery?
Veteran: No just,
Interviewer: Or in Vietnam
Veteran: This, it probably was in Vietnam, I don’t know what, it was in Vietnam
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: The two millionth round, yeah, but that was, I mean that’s, and it’s a lot of territory if
you think about it, it’s a lot of territory,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: That’s a lot of bullets too,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Yeah, we fired a lot, we did
Interviewer: Okay, and then at what point do you leave that or where do you go next?
Veteran: When, one of the things, one of the projects they had,
(1:36:00)
Veteran: Of course they had the highway one, that, that the Navy, the Seabees built, Seabees
built highway one along the coast,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: Just outside of Camp Evens,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It went north I guess all the way, I don’t know all where it went, to Saigon at least,
Interviewer: Well the original highway one goes all the way back to the French, Seabees
probably improved it,
Veteran: Well they, they paved it, okay
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Let me just say this, they paved highway one, so the Army engineers had a project
where they were, we were gonna keep the A Shau Valley open year-round even during the
monsoon,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And they paved a road out there okay, and they, they built a fire bade where the road
entered the valley, and some Congressman come over, had a ceremony, had this congressman
and one of them hops in a jeep and they take off down the, the road, that was a hot incident, I
mean you were listening on the radios not here, he’s on the road somewhere, so this wasn’t a safe
area,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: This was, in Vietnam the only place you could count on being safe was what you could
see and control with your M16,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Alright, that was what you owned, nothing more, and it was hard to get that point across
to people but this guy made the trip and he got through, but it rained one time and it washed out
in five places, and they decided that it wasn’t feasible to try to have, try to keep it open,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They also made a base out there, they were gonna move, they moved from Eagle’s Nest
down to this new base I, can’t remember the name of it right now, anyway I’ll think about it, the
name of it but I can’t remember it right now,
Interviewer: Right,
Veteran: But it was, it was on a mountain, but it was a small, much smaller mountain
(1:38:01)
Veteran: As where the road came out so they could actually get vehicles traffic to that base,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the other thing that happened is the monsoon is, monsoon was beginning, building
up to the monsoon, the canopy comes down somewhat and jungle rats went up the mountain,
jungle rats invaded Eagle’s Nest,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: When I was, when I was in Bastogne, we built bunker bunks, out of ammo boxes, put
four ammo boxes together to make a bunk, and we had another one, so I was slept on the bottom
and the other, the other fire direction officer, excuse me, slept on top, an old super, super rat
would come down the wall, the dirt wall, I’d be a sleep, it’d jump, hit on me, and bounce off to
the other wall, so you’re lying there at night and all of a sudden somebody jumps on you and
you’re awake and your, you know just not a good time, so finally got a big trap and they sent me
a, a big trap and I caught super mouse, Nice coat I was thinking that, that sure would be a nice, if
I had a bunch of those I could make me a rat coat and get me one of those hats with the big
mirrors on it and be a pimp,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: West Coast,
Interviewer: Well was there only one of them,
Veteran: There was, where you were, they only had one,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: They moved us off though, and moved us off there, they couldn’t keep us resupplied,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, we went to Firebase Blaze and, and at Blaze we, I remember swimming, going
swimming, there was a stream there, and swimming in the river and bathing for about three days,
and then they moved us down to firebase fury, which is farther south, and fury was,
(1:40:00)
Veteran: It’s the only time I came across a, punji pits, they were punji pits with the bamboo
spikes in them,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There hadn’t been war down there, I mean we had, it had been occupied at some point,
I don’t know who but not while I was there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: One thing that had happened, it had a infantry patrol in there, somebody had been
wounded and they called in a, a medivac, the medivac didn’t come in but another helicopter did
and he had him throw smoke in the, in the, NVA also threw smoke and he went in on the wrong
smoke,
Interviewer: Oh,
Veteran: Even though they were telling him that’s the wrong smoke, he went in and got shot
down, and there were the remains of that helicopter, it wasn’t right on the base, it was, was just
off it but you could see it, so you’re awake in the morning, every morning you wake up and
you’re outside waiting on somebody to stick their head up right, before dawn,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: At dawn, and then the howler monkeys come in, yes, so you’re already tense, you’re
already tight, and the howler monkey starts making that racket, oh god, oh, ah, they howl in the
evening, and howl, but they really howl in the morning, waking up oh, it’s the only time I heard
howler monkeys, then they moved us from there to, there was a place, so they were gonna put a
�fire base in, and the first of the 506 was doing it and sometime in June I think of ’69, and the
battalion commander was killed, and they put us over there, and I think at that point there were,
put us over there to be bait battery, I always thought they did but it was, turned out that’s the,
that’s when Ho Chi Minh died, when Ho Chi Minh died, they called, called a truce, a unilateral,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Ceasefire,
(1:42:00)
Veteran: It was the honor, they didn’t do it for three days, they didn’t bother us, and then they
moved us from there to Hamburger Hill, and nothing happened on Hamburger Hill it was just a
blown off top of the mountain,
Interviewer: So, when do you think you were there?
Veteran: I can’t tell you exactly,
Interviewer: Okay because it can’t be during the monsoon season,
Veteran: No, it wasn’t because we was, but they were worried about the monsoon coming on,
Interviewer: Okay
Veteran: But, and there’s two monsoons in the north, I don’t know about the south, but they’re
two monsoons, anyway the, the only thing I remember is it was Sunday because two chaplains
came out,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And had services on Hamburger Hill, and then they moved us from there back to Evans,
we’re at Evans for a while then we had to build up and went to the DMZ, we, we drove up and,
and were lifted onto the firebase Sandy, well, Rings called it Sandy, the 101st renamed it Scotch,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And we were up there, the battery commander changed, Scales’ time was up and there
was another, somebody had extended to get command of the battery, and I outranked him
because I was already a captain,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, they moved me into the assistant S-3, which I started, went back to my lock and
worked there,
�Interviewer: Okay, now explain what an S-3 is,
Veteran: Operations, so basically, we had an S-3 who deal with operations, was a Major, and
about, several Captains,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There were assistant S-3’s and what we did is, I assigned fires,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, I cleared fires,
(1:44:00)
Veteran: I’d be sure everybody was doing what they were supposed to be doing, and monitored
the, the, monitored what they were doing, checking their work if necessary and following the
missions, so that’s basically what I did, I was the one that did, that you, monitored everything
really, but when you’d hear the thing come in, if there was any question about anything,
sometimes when, the way that the, it worked, the way they had it setup to work, it was a lot of
safety involved,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, the battery you’ve got, at least when I was there, we had a computer, a guy doing
the, the calculations and you had the, the fire direction officer and the fire direction officer’s
checking the work of the other one, excuse me,
*phone rings*
Veteran: Go away, I don’t want to talk to you, it’s a robo call I guarantee it,
Interviewer: Alright,
Veteran: Anyway,
Interviewer: So,
Veteran: And then, and while that’s going on, you’re sending the computer, computer is a person
not a machine,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, yeah, yup
Veteran: You’d send it to the battalion, and battalion checks it and you, if there’s any
disagreement you worked that out before anything’s ever fired,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And then, if there’s any problem with it, or if, if, you have to trust your people, but you
also have to check on ‘em,
Interviewer: Yup,
Veteran: So that goes on to,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Anyway, that’s what I did,
Interviewer: Okay, and was that sort of the last part of your tour, was doing that?
Veteran: No, it turned out not to be, I did that and then,
(1:46:00)
Veteran: I was, I went on R and R at Christmas, and came back, came back New Year’s Eve and
on New Year’s Day I went, I was assigned to be the liaison officer for the 2nd of the 506th, that’s
how I got into the Ripcord, I wasn’t really at Ripcord,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I was in the transition into Ripcord, so I can tell you a lot about what happened
there,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright because the Rip-, Ripcord itself, I mean they’re trying to establish
it as early as March of, of 1970, so there are several, they don’t actually do it until you’re in
April,
Veteran: No, we didn’t try to establish it in March, I mean they may tell you they’re trying to
establish it in March, let me tell you what happened,
Interviewer: Okay,
Veteran: So, we had, we had Colonel Crowell as the battalion commander, and we had Colonel
Crowell was the battalion commander, Major Koenigsbauer was the infantry S-3,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, and, and I was the liaison officer and then we had to transition from Colonel
Crowell, to Colonel Lucas, alright, so, and then we had to change a command and Lucas was in
charge,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So just, in the transition we go out to that, we’re put in three companies of infantry and
to the west of, of
ripcord,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And at that time, I’m out, I didn’t have it listed as Ripcord, I had it listed as Carroll,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I talked to Chuck Hawkins, he says well no, I’m sorry, talked to somebody else,
and they said well Carroll was up here in the north and it was a Marine firebase, that’s true,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I was on it, I saw it, I know about it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But I think the Marines named every other firebase they had Carroll alright, and they
didn’t stay named because they changed,
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: It was we went on Scotch, on Sandy and they changed it to Scotch,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: One was Scotch, and one was Soda,
(1:48:00)
Veteran: And I don’t, we were on Scotch, anyway Carroll, this thing was named Carroll, so there
were more than one Carol,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I understand that, and I had it still on my map as Carroll, but later after we got there,
they changed it to ripcord,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Okay, so, don’t wanna say anything bad, I’m thinking about what I’m saying, that’s so I
don’t offend West Point Officers because they have thinking it’s not mine, West Point officers
�for the most part are very good and very effective, and most of the Generals are West Point
officers, but, going to West Point doesn’t make you any better than anybody else,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They do take care of each other, but it does ensure a way of thinking that many officers,
many Army people, that was another thing that I was not good at, you’re going this way, and
that’s the way we’re going and that’s it,
*phone rings*
Veteran: That’ll get rid of you totally I hope, anyway, and then you go this way, just, and that’s
the only way you can go, and if this way is, you’re, anyway,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So, we get into that about Carroll, ripcord,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We got out there anyway, we were going out there and one of the missions that we had
was, there’s a river,
ripcord’s up here,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: There’s a mountaintop going here, there’s a stream here, supposedly that stream had
something in it that would make people sick, supposedly, and then stream, and we were going,
that was one of the reasons for putting people in out there,
(1:50:00)
Veteran: So they had three to three companies they were gonna put in, well we had a good
landing zone on the, at the top and the bottom, but not in the middle, and you’ve got, I’m sitting
in the middle, I’m sitting in, you’ve got a bench seat in the, in the Huey,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And I’m sitting in the left door, Colonel Lucas is sitting in the middle, and Colonel
Crowell is sitting in the right door and normally it would have been the S-3 in the middle, but he
didn’t even go because we were already more or less full, he’d have to sit in a jump seat,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Or I would have or something, anyway so we go and Colonel Crowell says we’ll call
the Air Force and get them to bomb it and make it bigger, well that didn’t happen, okay, didn’t
�happen, May, March the 12th, March the 12th, so we’ve got troops in the air, we go in and we try
to get in, you can get in, but you’ve got to hover in,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Which is not a way you want to have to worry about, you didn’t have the glide path,
oaky there was a hole there, but you couldn’t get into it, so we put those alternate, alternate was
to put them on, on Carroll,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Which became Ripcord,
Interviewer: Right
Veteran: Put them on there and we got mortared,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: We got run off, a couple people killed, and back to eight people and start all over again,
so then we’re gonna have, we got, there was also ARVN, an ARVN insertion at the same time
and that one,
(1:52:00)
Veteran: They found some intelligence, intelligence, intelligence and ARVN don’t go together
but that’s what they found, intelligence, anyway so we’re going, we make a free fire zone, and
you had to do arc lights and stuff like that, for an arc light you had to clear an area three miles
wide and five miles long, and then you can call an arc light on it,
Interviewer: OK
Veteran: B-52 strike, but that and anything else that came up, so the other thing happened was
the weather came in, so the weather didn’t cooperate with us, so instead of being five days, it
was like two weeks,
Interviewer: Yeah cause April 1st was the second time,
Veteran: April 1st was the second time, and so April 1st, who we put troops in, they also have
planned, by this time they’ve decided they’re gonna make this a firebase,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So they’ve got, and the TOC’s gonna go in, and so they’ve got advanced party for the
TOC, Major Laws in one of the last two helicopters, one of the last two helicopters were action
tracks, people going in the artillery for, forward party,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And the, the TOC forward party, and then the rest of it was, was the insertion of the
company, company and they go in and, and we’re mortared again, in fact the troops, so here’s
ripcord, and then down the ridgeline is Kaka Bow, Kaka Bow Ridge, runs up to the, same way,
the pilots reported troops in the open, moving up Kaka, along Kaka Bow Ridge toward ripcord,
Okay now in the middle of, a big insertion, and with, and they had a proper artillery preparation,
I did,
(1:54:00)
Veteran: I planned the artillery prep,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The problem was it’s just too big, I mean it was too, and we couldn’t, I couldn’t kill all
the mortars,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: And before we had a few places where they could shoot a mortar from, now they had a
lot of places they could shoot a mortar from, you know you just open the canopy up,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: So we did ‘em a favor in doing that, anyway, that was a bad day, they were mortared,
some mortars,
Interviewer: Yeah that’s,
Veteran: I lost a lieutenant and a forward observer, that’s another sad story this kid was waiting
to hear, he was waiting to hear about his, I think his third child,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: It was his third child, one of his children he had a child ready, bout to pop out,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t know waiting to hear about it, he’s on the ground, I'm talking to him from the
air, I told him to be safe, get in a safe place, where you can see but in a safe place, the last heli-,
the last helicopter coming in had Ben Keen, Captain Ben Keen, Charlie battery commander,
second of the 319th, Ben Keen made him move to where he could see better, he was also exposed
when he got blown up,
�Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: By the mortar, blown in half, I didn’t know that until much later which is probable a
good thing, because I'm not in jail,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: I don’t think I could have gotten away with shooting him with everybody looking at
me, in self-defense I don’t know, IInterviewer: Yeah, it’s tough
Veteran: I don’t mean to, don’t put that in there, God knows, edit that out, not worth saying,
that’s the way I felt, but
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: Ben Keen, I don’t wanna talk about
(1:56:01)
Interviewer: Okay so, and then basically then they, the company that lands walks off that night,
they leave,
Veteran: Carrying a body,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: The bodies
Interviewer: Yeah,
Veteran: More than one, yes, they go over to the other hill, the, I don’t remember, the hill to the
southeast,
Interviewer: Maybe one thousand at that point or,
Veteran: I think it was one thousand, I think that’s where it was, I'm pretty sure that’s where they
went, and then that night the recon lieutenant just changed position, changed commanders,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Wilson, this kid Wilson, I don’t remember his first name, teenager had been to recon
platoon leader alright,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
�Veteran: And he was, he did well, he did, he was a good platoon leader, operated well alone he
was a, anyway this other guy Wilson who was new to that and he wasn’t new to the country
company, he was, he’d been there a while, but he took over the recon platoon and he was talking
about, he had been given orders by Colonel Lucas to go sneak and peak on ripcord, that’s a
stupid thing to do, you just got your ass run off and you’re gonna send some people, sneaking
and peak back over there, I'm sorry but that’s my opinion and Wilson thought he was gonna be
killed and he was killed, I mean it’s like a death sentence, that, that always didn’t make, several
things that Lucas did didn’t make sense to me, one was why didn’t he divert to ash and trash
when you get on a hot LZ because they’re in the way,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They’re not part, they, it’s just stupid stuff that’s in the way,
(1:58:00)
Veteran: You don’t need them, divert those two things, we can, reschedule it, anyway, I have to
leave that like me being green and the, well Bastogne, and it was, he’d been, he’d been in
country six months, but he hadn’t been
Interviewer: He had no combat experience, he was not a ground combat commander
Veteran: He was good about wanting you to have your ironed clothes ironed
Interviewer: Yup
Veteran: And that was one of the issues he and I had, they had, they decided that we could
always, they washed our clothes, you sent our clothes in the laundry to be washed, just see we
had clean clothes but they were wrinkled alright, so they decided they could iron clothes, they
could do ten sets per, for the battalion, so he gave it over to the Sergeant Major, the Sergeant
Major did the staff, and the First Sergeants, staff I don’t know if it include, including the
company commanders, and the First Sergeant, alright, but that let the artillery liaison out,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Well you gotta go to your battalion, he’s got the same problem you got, he’s already got
that done over there alright,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: Well you could iron them, I ain’t ironing them okay, that’s not gonna happen, it didn’t
happen, but that was one of the things, alright so now I'm like I said I’ve always been kind of a
slob but I'm, oh well, anyway, I'm not walking around in ironed fatigues right, the rest of his
people are, cause now they got that, so that was, that was one of the things,
�(2:00:01)
Veteran: That, one of our content points of contention, when it, when I told him that when we
were doing the planning for this mission we went up and met with the ARVN’s, Don Hi I
believe, and he was talking with the ARVN commander and he was talking about ammunitions,
well we need more ammunition, and so Lucas volunteers to give him some of ours, I said sir you
can’t give those to him, well I'm allocated so many rounds and I can give him some of that, I said
sir, you’re allocated, but it belongs to that battery commander down there that has it,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: You’re allocated it for who are used, but you can’t give it away here like that, he didn’t
understand, maybe he did understand he’s too, never mind,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: But that was, so then he, we got, he got ordered to go to the field, move out, we moved
out to Gladiator, he got ordered to go out there and we got our packs down, got our packs on the
tawk, we’re going out next morning, to have our packs in there that night, and I had, when I
came through, central issue, I would, I had, you were issued two canteens, well I got one regular
canteen with canteen cup, the whole thing, and, and the other one I got was a two quart canteen,
where it had a cover and a strap and also could be put on the belt, but that’s what I was issued, so
I had that hanging on, I had my, my canteen on my web belt, but I had that on my pack, he
decided he wanted it, he liked it, we’ll get you one, well, there wasn’t any to get okay, so I go
back and there's my pack without my canteen on it,
(2:02:01)
Veteran: he’s got my canteen, he took my can, they took my canteen and gave it to Lucas, I
wasn’t real thrilled with that okay, you have to think about the situation too, you’re in Vietnam
what else they gonna do to you,
Interviewer: Mm-hmm
Veteran: They’re not going to shot at you in jail,
Interviewer: Yeah, alright now this tape is about up,
Veteran: Okay
Interviewer: So I'm going to stop it here
Veteran: You might say Lucas and I didn’t see eye-to-eye,
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_HinesR2319V1
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Hines, Raymond (1 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2019
Date
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2019-07-26
Description
An account of the resource
Raymond Hines was born on April 6, 1944 in Wellford, South Carolina, and graduated high school in 1962. Hines received his draft notice in 1965 and chose to enlist in the Army. He completed Basic Training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, and Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Devens, Massachusetts, where he became a Morse Intercept Operator. He also trained in Artillery OCS at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, before transferring to Fort Bliss, Texas, as part of the Air Defense for only two months before being transferred to Wurzburg Germany. From Germany, Hines was deployed to Vietnam with the 2nd of the 319th as a Fire Direction Officer and proceeded to report to the Bravo Battery at Firebase Bastogne. He saw heavy combat with this unit. While in Vietnam, Hines also worked as an assistant S-3 fireman, and a Liaison Officer for the 2nd of the 506 at Fire Base Ripcord. After taking some additional advanced artillery courses, he deployed to Nuremberg Germany with the 3rd of the 70th House Artillery before transferring to the 7th Corps Artillery as a Nuclear Release Authentication System Officer. He would later return to Europe after recieveing his veterinarian degree in the United States to care for military service animals.
Creator
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Hines, Raymond
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5569db19b1d2ecc565dd2dc160d84819.mp4
c0456c423b83c3b2be1ac6ff4a12d9d3
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7037b6acd882745e168f3735f9bc50a5.pdf
2a6d9b634a80275bac813c241c78e935
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Ulf Hierlwimmer
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: We’re talking today with Dr. Ulf Rainer Hierlwimmer of Holland, Michigan. I
guess you go by Ulli most of the time?
Veteran: Ulli is what friends call me.
Interviewer: Alright. So Ulli, start us off with some background about yourself, and you’ve
got an interesting background, and so where and when were you born?
Veteran: I was born May 31st, 1945 in what was the Soviet occupied zone of Germany, namely
the Eastern Zone. And before we proceed, I will take off my cover, and we will go through my
life history as through how I established my Navy career. On May 31st, 1945 there were very few
doctors left to deliver me, but an old time OB-GYN gentleman delivered me. I have never met
him; I heard his name from mama but never went back - so far - to my birthplace. But, about a
year later my mother, as all moms are, very guarding of life, walked with me in a baby carriage, I
was in the baby carriage, at age one approximately, to the safety of the West to Augsburg,
Bavaria, Western Zone, or West Germany.
Interviewer: And did she tell you how she was able to get out of East Germany?
(00:02:07)
Veteran: She walked.
Interviewer: But, I mean, did the Soviets let her out?
�Veteran: She ran across a platoon of Soviet soldiers, and they did not harm her, and they didn’t
harm me. So, there is an element of compassion even with sometimes so-called “enemies.” And
we have to remember that not all people are bad. But she walked about 232 miles and she would
stay with farmers and so on along the way, who she didn’t know, but she asked for refuge for the
night.
Interviewer: Did she tell you how long it took?
Veteran: She said it took about 12 to 14 days. She would walk very fast. Pushing me.
Interviewer: That’s a reasonable clip to go at. Now where was you father at this time?
(00:03:05)
Veteran: My father was being released by the Americans in Livorno, Italy because he had been
drafted into the German Army as an enlisted person first, and then he was promoted because he
had one year of the equivalency of a junior college, and he was going to become a lens crafter for
Bausch & Lomb. And well, the German government at that time, the Führer’s government at that
time said, “No no, no no no, you are going to be drafted.” And he was drafted as a young man,
and he became a Second Lieutenant. And then in 1944 he was promoted to First Lieutenant and
he was sent to Italy, northern Italy, and he was captured outside of Florence and taken by
convoy. And many other German soldiers were captured, without firing a shot I might add, In
1945. And thank God he did, and he was taken to Livorno which is now Camp Radley for NATO
in Livorno. And he could speak some English, and so what the commanding officer was
interested in, some of these German soldiers that could speak English, because they needed
German translators to set up some stability in the Western Zone. Especially in Bavaria, where
my father hails from. Anyway, with a letter of recommendation after he was released after nine
�months in the POW camp, he went back to his home city of Augsburg, where there was a huge
U.S. Army base.
Interviewer: Couple questions here, one of them is, he’s from Augsburg in Bavaria, why
were you born in East Germany?
Veteran: Yes, he and my mother met when he was retreating out of Russia. They met, and they
met in her home area, which was Gotha, Thuringian.
Interviewer: So they meet after he was in the Army, then?
Veteran: Yes, he was in the Army. Right.
Interviewer: So anyway, so that was her home area, since he’s not there, she’s not going to
be where he is. Okay that makes sense. Alright. When did he get back to Augsburg?
(00:06:03)
Veteran: He got back to Augsburg in 1946 in January or February of 1946, and he let somehow
be known through the Americans that he was a translator at the U.S. Army base back in
Augsburg and that he was safe and “Can you try to join me?” through channels which I don’t
really know about. He got that message through to mama. Which is amazing.
Interviewer: Legally she should have been able to go, but the Soviet and East German
authorities were not always interested in that.
Veteran: No, no. That’s the interesting thing about the German personality. The German
personality is which way does the flag blow; you know? Which way does the wind blow? I hate
to say it that way, but it’s true. The East Germans became better communists with their doctrine
�than even the Soviets. And so, the Soviets always had to keep a firm handle in overseeing the
East German authorities because they were a little bit tenacious, very tenacious.
Interviewer: Alright. So basically, she’s able to come and she can join your father, he’s
already there, he’s got a job.
Veteran: He’s got a job as a translator.
Interviewer: Alright, and then how long did they wind up staying in Germany?
(00:07:39)
Veteran: In Germany til April, late April 1953, my father was able to get to - he met a major in
the U.S. Army that he had translated for. This major said, “I have parents in Virginia, and they
live in Falls Church, but they have a 100-acre farm near Warrenton, Virginia, and they need an
overseer” and also a worker of course, and my father said “Oh, okay.” And I’m an only child, so
it wasn’t a problem of immigrating, and through the Americans he did get a visa for the three of
us and starting May 2nd we traveled by train, late April to the ship in Rotterdam, the M.S.
Noordam, which was part of the Holland-America line and I have the original suitcase. I brought
my paraphernalia, which I’m so proud of, future generations of Hierlwimmers will I know.
Interviewer: Hold that up here.
Veteran: That’s the original suitcase.
Interviewer: Got the original luggage tag on it.
Veteran: Starting May 2nd, 1953. And we were supposed to go for a 9-day journey to the port city
of New York. Well, all the berths were filled up, so we had to go to up the Hudson to Hoboken,
New Jersey. To that same center, which was the port where that train accident just recently
�occurred. I recognized the gates, I said to my wife of 48 years, I said “Patty, I remember those
gates.” and I didn’t understand it as an 8-year-old child. And I said, “Why these big gates?”
Well, we had to go through customs of course and we had to show the - papa had to show the
visas and so on. But I might add, my most historic moment of the voyage was short of New York
harbor. That’s the very first time I heard the Star-Spangled Banner being played, as we went past
the Statue of Liberty, and different dialects trying to sing the song. I didn’t know the words
because I really didn’t speak much English, but I remember that. And to this day when I see the
statue in person, I get tears, because America to me is represented one hundred percent by that
statue and that’s what we Americans have to think about. All this other thing that’s going on
presently just remember the statue and remember who gave it to us as a gift, France. France!
Liberty, justice for all, and welcoming, welcoming immigrants. Or welcoming people to this
country of ours, this great country of ours.
(00:11:12)
Interviewer: Why did your parents want to come to the U.S. in the first place?
Veteran: More opportunities. 1952, 1953 were bad years in Germany. The Berlin uprising was
occurring, Poland was uprising a little bit, Hungary was starting Interviewer: Not yet, but soon.
Veteran: Soon. In ‘56 the Hungarians finally did have the uprising and slowly but surely
Czechoslovakia and so on, but Berlin started it and the Soviets punished them severely.
Interviewer: And it took a little while longer before you get the full economic recovery in
West Germany which does eventually happen in the ‘50s.
�Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay. And he’s got-- your father speaks English, he’s got good American
connections. So now-Veteran: Before we go on, my father’s-- in 1946 there was no West German currency yet, there
was no West German Deutsche Mark. So, my father is paid by the Americans - they could not
pay him in U.S. dollars. They paid him in cigarettes. Two cartons of Lucky Strikes per month for
translating, and then in ‘47 when the Deutsche Mark came along, he got paid in Deutsche Marks.
Interviewer: Okay. So now you actually, you get to Hoboken, get off the ship, go through
customs. Now what do you do?
Veteran: Then we were picked up in Hoboken by our sponsors, Mr. and Mrs. Chew and-- very
nice people, very nice people-- and they drove us from Hoboken, New Jersey. It was probably
around noontime and we drove in a big Buick - I had never seen a car like that. And naturally as
a young child I was in the back seat, and I almost sank out of appearance you know, in the back
seat. And I'm going “My goodness, this is something.” And you drove us to the farm, and the
next day papa was not only the overseer of one other worker, but also a worker, he was on the
tractor already the next day, on May 12th, 1953. And he was getting paid 25 cents an hour, but it
was a start.
Interviewer: And he had a place to live.
Veteran: And he had a place to live. Mama took care of the farmhouse.
(00:13:50)
�Interviewer: Alright, so now, what was life like for you there? Is this where you grew up or
did you move?
Veteran: Oh no no, we moved about nine to ten months later from the farm because the
minimum wage, slowly but surely we came to find out, was 75 cents an hour. And I attended
Warrenton Public Schools, but I might add this is now 1953, and I attended the white school on
top of the hill in Warrenton, Virginia. And the African American school was at the bottom of the
hill surrounded by a big fence and so on. And I was put back into first grade. I had been in first
grade and second grade in German public school in Augsburg, but make a long story short, one
day I got jeered by the first graders, first grade boys, and it was an old World War II thing,
“Hotsie, totsie, another newborn Nazi.” So, I got a little bit upset, so I decided to run down to the
African American school. The white teacher and the white principal started chasing me and
saying, “You cannot play with those folks.” And I asked, “Why not?”, and I knew how to
pronounce the W’s. Rather than “Vy not?”, “Why not?” and no answer. And worse yet, the
closer I got-- I could run very fast, especially downhill-- the closer I got to the African American
school, they waved me off. The teachers and the students on the playground they said, “White
boy, we cannot play with you.” And I asked again, “Why not?” and no answer came. And I
remember that vividly, and that was, that has been imprinted in my brain for life. The
discrimination, the attitude of discrimination hurts everybody, and we must not forget that we
cannot divide peoples. Look at what happened in Germany when you isolated groups, and the
genocide and what not. But anyway, mama being a tough lady, she tries to find work in
Warrenton, Virginia. So, she went first to the white business owners in Warrenton and they
would not hire her because it was eight years after World War II. And so, she marched herself
into the black, or the African American, “ghetto” part of Warrenton. The first snack bar she came
�to, she walked in as a white woman and said, “I need a job.” And the owner said, “Ma’am I can
hire you, but do you know what you’re doing?” And she said, “I don’t care.” And he said
“Really? You want to work as a waitress?” and she says “Yeah, I need a job.” He hired her on
the spot for 50 cents an hour, so they made the minimum wage of 75 cents an hour.
Interviewer: I take it this didn’t last too long.
(00:17:36)
Veteran: No. Like I said, nine to ten months. And my parents accumulated enough savings, they
paid for the entire trip. Which was at that time, $500. And that was a lot. That was a lot for the
three of us to come over from Germany, or Holland, you know, Rotterdam, to America. And the
sponsor insisted, he said, “No, no, no, you keep that money.” My father said no. “Nein.” Not
going to do it. So, then he had tied up with a G.I. friend of his that he knew from Augsburg, who
lived in Connecticut, near Westport, Connecticut. And this friend helped us get to Connecticut
through the Y.M.C.A. in Westport, Connecticut, to a botany professor named Dr. Ken
Henderson, who was a botany professor at Yale. But his sideline business was raising 30,000
orchid plants in his private greenhouses, right across the street from Long Island Sound. And my
mother became the maid in the household of the Hendersons, and we had a free apartment there,
and my father was the orchid tenderer. He and another worker tended 30,000 orchid plants. And
we stayed in Westport, Connecticut or Westport area - Fairfield, Connecticut - about two years,
because then a recession hit. And he had another G.I. friend in Buffalo, New York. The network
of Americans that my father had because of his job as a translator.
(00:19:38)
Interviewer: So when do you go to Buffalo?
�Veteran: Buffalo, 1955. Summer of ‘55 and I started public school there, Public School Number
37, inner-city Buffalo, and we had an apartment at first in Buffalo, near downtown Buffalo. And
then one day I was walking to school, I had to walk to P.S. 37. It was about a mile away, and I
pass past a house on Elm Street in Buffalo just south of Roswell Park, memorial it was called,
Roswell Park Memorial Hospital for Cancer. And I saw this house for sale you know, and I told
my parents, this was 1956, I told my parents when I got home and they looked at the house and
they said “I think we can afford this house” you know, and that was our first American house
that my parents bought. And then after Public School 37-- and I won the sons of the American
Revolution medal in eighth grade at Public School 37, I still have it at home here, my children
will probably, you know-- but the high school then I started attending was Hutchinson Central
Technical High School in Buffalo, but then my father's job with Remington Rand, he was in the
microfilm business, because like I said a way long time ago in the interview, that he was a lens
crafter so he loved photography, and so microfilm was the data storage system for all businesses,
etcetera. Remington Rand transferred him from Buffalo to Detroit. And in Detroit, what was
very interesting, this was now 1959, I went to Cass Tech High School, transferred there in
electrical electronics, but make a long story short, at age 13 my family doctor became Dr. Raul
Torres, who I did not mention until now. Dr. Raul Torres was a captain, medical corps U.S.
Army, stationed in Augsburg. When I came along with mom, with mama, my father took me in
his arms to aboard the U.S. Army base to Dr. Raul Torres, who he had been translating for also,
and said “Can you help my son?” because we had very little nutrition under the Soviets and
historically or politically, I can understand it. The Soviets lost ten percent of their population in
that horrible war. Revenge was on their minds. Babies were useless, senior citizens were
absolutely useless too, and I was sustained, besides God's love and mama’s love, by flour, water,
�occasionally some milk, carrots, pureed carrots, carrot juice. A blessing that I’m here. But he
looked at me and he had my father explain, “Where has this kid been?” You know. He says,
“Well we have to help him.” Age one. And he says “I’m going to plug him into an I.V., he’s
dehydrated,” and plugs me into an American I.V. His wife, Dr. Estelle Torres, they were the first
married couple to graduate from Wayne State University Medical School in Detroit in 1943, but
he had been drafted into the Army, he calls her long distance to Detroit, took him 30 minutes as
the history goes, and he says “Estelle, you’ve got to send formula and vitamins for this German
infant,” and naturally she’s thinking “What the heck are you doing with a German infant?” And
he explained it and he says, “We’ve got to help this infant.” And by God, she would send the
materials over to his A.P.O. box. Anyway, slowly but surely, and he left the Army in ‘47 and he
and his wife set up a practice in Hamtramck, because she was Polish, he was from Grandville
actually, and his father was a family doctor in Grandville.
(00:26:06)
Interviewer: So, they’re there in the Detroit area.
Veteran: Age 13, he becomes my family doctor. At age 16 he pulls me into his private office,
and he says to me “you owe” and I thought, you know, the monetary thing. He says, “No no no
no no, you owe society.” He didn’t say society, but he says, “You owe” and I said “Okay.” He
says, “We’re going to get you into medical school one way or another,” and I said “You are? But
I like electrical electronics as Cass Tech High School!” He says, “That’s okay, that’s okay,
you’re going to be an engineer for people.” I said “I am? Okay, oh my goodness!” I listened. I
listened. Who helped me get into medical school? Dr. Raul Torres. Because his own father was a
D.O. His own brother was a D.O. His brother-in-law was a D.O. And the father was deceased, of
Dr. Raul Torres, but the two other gentlemen and Dr. Raul Torres, even though he was an M.D.,
�wrote me nice letters of recommendation and I did get accepted to Chicago College of
Osteopathic Medicine.
(00:26:35)
Interviewer: Okay. Now where had you gone to college for undergrad?
Veteran: Wayne State University.
Interviewer: Okay. And were you still living at home while you were doing that or were
you living on campus?
Veteran: No, my parents-- my father’s job, he was hired by a competitor named Kodak at that
time and they were really big into microfilming, and so what happened, my parents-- my father
was transferred to Toronto, Canada, Ontario, Canada, and as a microfilm salesperson and
microfilm systems setup in 1965, and it was about that time that the banks were moving out of
Montreal, because of the Quebec Separatists Movement, banks would get scared, rightfully so, of
little revolutions you know, and so he became sort of the microfilm specialist for the banks and
so on. He did very, very, well, my dad.
Interviewer: But in the meantime, you’re back here in college.
(00:27:44)
Veteran: But I started living with friends and so on and then I finally wound up at a fraternity
house off-campus at Wayne State University, near the art museum. It was an adventure. It was a
medical fraternity, but they rented to pre-med also. So I got the scoop about medical school from
them too besides Dr. Raul Torres of course and so on, and so make a long story short, in 1968 I
had the interview but from 1967 to 1968 I student taught and taught general science in the inner
�city of Detroit, 8th grade, okay, and it was Sherrard Junior High School, and then evening school,
I taught at Ford High School, math, because I love math, it's almost a German trait, you know. I
made enough money and so on, and in the meantime I had met my future wife in the organic
chemistry lab at Wayne State University-- and she was not my lab partner, but I looked at her
very eyeing-ly, and I said “Jeez, this lady is on the ball! Pretty and everything, you know. And
so, I didn’t have the gumption, you know, the courage to ask her out for a date, but we bumped
just serendipitously into each other and I asked her out for a date, and the rest is history, and we
got married in 1968 just before medical school started in September.
Interviewer: At this point of course, the Vietnam war is in full swing, and the draft is there
and you’re certainly eligible for this. Now while you’re in college as an undergraduate it’s a
four year deferment, so that’s going to be running out, but you’re heading to medical
school. So how did that work?
Veteran: That was a draft deferment too.
Interviewer: Okay. But was there a catch to that? If you were going to medical school and
not being drafted, did Uncle Sam expect you to go into the military?
(00:30:06)
Veteran: After graduation, yes. Absolutely. They had a program where you could join during
medical school, and I did. I did. I joined just before the start of my senior year in medical school
as a full commissioned ensign, which would be second lieutenant equivalency, full time. No
uniform, just go to school, keep up your grades and then you owe us time.
Interviewer: Okay. So when you signed up-- why did you sign up for that? Did you figure
you were going to get drafted anyway so you might as well do this?
�Veteran: Exactly. Exactly. And I said “I owe this country. I owe this country.” And my wife was
in full support of my Navy application and everything and she actually helped fill in the-- she’s
much better at filling in applications. I’m the astronaut, and she’s Houston Space Center.
Interviewer: So why did you choose the Navy?
(00:31:13)
Veteran: Because my father-in-law was a chief petty officer during World War II in the Navy,
and he got me in touch with Senator Philip Hart and also with his commanding officer who was a
rear admiral by that time in Detroit and had been retired of course, and both of those gentlemen
wrote me beautiful letters of recommendation to the Navy and my father-in-law helped instigate
that. He was a great man.
Interviewer: This was kind of a—this is a program that you just don’t sign up for and walk
into, you have to be recommended?
Veteran: No, you have to be recommended.
Interviewer: Ah, okay. Now, when you first go in, before that first year, do they give you
any kind of Navy training, or does that come after you graduate from medical school?
(00:32:06)
Veteran: I hate to say this, there was no Navy training. All I had to do is, the paperwork was
done for me at the-- in Chicago itself at the “afee” station, there was the recruiting office
upstairs. They filled in all the paperwork, sent it to Great Lakes because that was my
“theoretical” duty station. But no, at that time no training other than we did receive a manual in
�the mail saying the, you know, the regulations and so on, and thirty days of leave during that
senior year pay, full pay, full benefits, even insurance. Health insurance, and life insurance.
Interviewer: Well, you were a Navy officer at that point so okay. Alright, so that-- you do
that. So that’s your last year, you finish medical school, now what happens to you?
(00:33:14)
Veteran: Right. Then, I was accepted into Bethesda Naval Hospital because I applied for the
internship there and I’ll never forget, I had to be interviewed on a Saturday morning by the
internship director who was Captain van Houten, God rest his soul, and I come to find out his
brother was a D.O. in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. So, I came to find that out later, he told me later.
But he interviewed me. He was chief of anesthesiology, he interviewed me on a Saturday
morning because I had to call him long distance because I was on a senior student rotation in
Detroit at a hospital, and the program director of us medical students, he said “ No, no, you have
to stay Friday night,” I mean up to Friday night. I said, “But I have an interview!” So, guess what
this young buck and my wife did. I mean we drove through the night, and we changed clothing
and so on to appear well in appearance, you know. No uniform, I had no uniform, and he
interviews me, and he says, “Yes, you’re accepted, you're accepted to the internship program.”
And I took the old-fashioned internship because I really didn’t know what specialty or whatever
I wanted to do. I was more family practice oriented initially.
Interviewer: Did you do your internship at Great Lakes or elsewhere?
(00:34:52)
Veteran: Nope, at Bethesda Naval Hospital. And that’s when he told me, "You know who was
the best doctor in our family?” and I said, “I don’t know.” He says, “My brother, who was a D.O.
�family doctor in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.” I said, “Oh,” and he says, “Well, congratulations,
you'll be one of two D.O. interns here at Bethesda.
(00:35:20)
Interviewer: And just for people who aren’t really aware, D.O. is Doctor of Osteopathic,
it’s a different program from the standard M.D. Medical Doctor although you get
essentially most of the same training just a little bit different approach but traditionally
there had been some prejudice against D.O.’s from the M.D.’s?
Veteran: Yes there was, yes there was. The last state to give us practice rights was Mississippi,
not surprisingly—oh, excuse me. But, the military gave us the opportunities of a lifetime. And
that was one of the other reasons I said, “I want to apply to the military.” Because their graduate
programs are recognized by both and that’s the main thing, you have to be recognized by
credentialing bodies and certification bodies in any field, in any profession, and at that time, the
military, and to this present day, the military is wide open for all qualified people. And I was just
fortunate enough, after that internship year, I was the first D.O. resident to be accepted to a
pediatric residency program at Bethesda Naval Hospital.
(00:36:45)
Interviewer: Talk a little bit about that first year at Bethesda as an intern.
Veteran: It was very interesting. The most biased service was the surgical program, because at
that time, D.O.’s were not accepted to M.D. surgical residencies, or even rotations. And it
brought back the memories of Warrenton, Virginia, in my own mind, and I got to feel the
empathy for people who get discriminated against. For no reason. For no reason. Not even
willing to give you a chance to show your abilities, and that’s evil. In my estimation, that’s the
�most evil concept I know of because you can destroy people much easier than you can uplift
people. And it’s so easy to discriminate. It’s so easy. Am I good at not discriminating? No, there
are times where I catch myself and I say, “Ulli, don’t judge. Do not judge. You're a mere mortal
being, like the rest.”
(00:38:16)
Interviewer: Okay, so as you’re--In principle as an intern, you would kind of rotate
through all the different specialties.
Veteran: All the different services. And I rotated through pediatrics--that was one of my first
rotations. I loved it because of my own background at age one. I said “This is it! This is it.”
Because pediatrics is the future of the society. If you can’t deal with children, I mean, your
generation is going to die out.
Interviewer: I think of a naval hospital as treating servicemen who tend to be older than
needing a pediatrician.
Veteran: Yes, but the dependents. You have to treat the whole family. You just have to. And on
the grocery bags at the commissaries, the most difficult job is being a Navy wife. At that time it
was predominantly male dominated, you know. But, so, the wives would go shopping at the
commissary and so on, and at the PX’s but on the grocery bags, yeah they had: “The most
difficult job is being a Navy wife.” And, it’s true! I mean, they support the family while you're
on missions or whatever, and it’s a team effort, and it’s a difficult effort at times.
(00:39:40)
�Interviewer: Okay. Now of course, at that point, that first year you're right there at
Bethesda, so you get to go home at night, or at least whenever you’re off your shifts.
Veteran: Right.
Interviewer: Now, after that, your internship-Veteran: The residency, it’s the same thing, you got to go home after your shifts, usually, for
three years.
Interviewer: So, what did you do after the first year?
(00:39:59)
Veteran: After the first year, I got accepted to that pediatric residency for three years. And then
after the pediatric residency I was supposed to go to Great Lakes. I had orders in hand to go to
Great Lakes, because we wanted to go back home to Michigan and so on, and all of a sudden, I
was actually taking a very sick infant from Bethesda Naval Hospital to Oakland Naval Hospital
via AirEvac, medical air evacuation out of Andrews Air Force Base, at that time it was called
Andrews Air Force Base, and it took us twenty-four hours to get to Oakland because they stop it
at all types of bases to pick up the ill, the sick people. And the reason this baby had to be
transferred is because both parents were active duty Navy on special projects that I never knew
about-- and I don’t want to know about it. They wanted to see their baby and it was a very
critically ill patient and there was no pediatric nurse with me, so I took care of the infant and so
on, and we got that infant safely to Oakland Naval Hospital late at night their time, and the
parents were there and they just hugged, and, you know. They knew too that it was a terminal
type of deformity or malformation, but at least they got to see their child, their son. Then my
orders while I was aboard the plane, the copilot comes back to me and says, “Your orders for
�Great Lakes have been rescinded, I just got this message,” and I said, “It did?” And he says,
“Yes, you’re going to Annapolis to the Naval Academy. You’re going to be Chief of Pediatrics
there.” I said, “I am? How come?” I mean, how? “Well you know, that’s a nicer duty station than
Great Lakes,” and I said, “I know, I know, but my wife was already out looking for apartments”
or homes or whatever, because her sister lives right near Great Lakes and her brother-in-law
lived right near, or lives still, right near Great Lakes. So, make a long story short, I called her as
soon as I landed you know and I said, “Patty, we’re going to Annapolis.” “Annapolis? But I’m
looking at houses here in the Great Lakes area.” And I said, “Well, forget it. The Navy has its
own methods and I am going to follow my orders of course.” And she says, “yeah, you have to.”
So, we moved up to Annapolis. It was wonderful.
(00:43:17)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, what years were you there?
Veteran: From July ’76, bicentennial year, and I left there December 30th. And December 31st
started my fellowship in allergy, immunology, and asthma between Georgetown and Bethesda
Naval Hospital, and that lasted 2 years. And it was great! Great training. And right across the
street from Bethesda Naval Hospital are the National Institutes of Health. All of the different
institutes. And one of the institutes is the National Institute of Infectious Diseases and Allergy.
Well, every Thursday afternoon, we got to go as trainees on rounds and lectures at the National
Institutes of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. And so it just broadened my horizons, even then.
And then in January of 1980, I became Chief of Allergy at Bethesda Naval Hospital. And I had
an assistant, another physician who was an allergist, a wonderful allergist, and the two of us ran
that department. But I came up with the idea through my previous Chief of Allergy, to make
visits to the outlying facilities to save the government money. Because for a patient visit to our
�clinic at Bethesda, is usually—was usually in the neighborhood of oh, $2000 or $3000 per
member. Because they had to cut orders, they had to get per diem and they had to stay in an
expensive area of Washington. So, he told me, he says “Ulli, just keep up your visits to the
outlying facilities.” That was the best advice I ever had. So where would we go? I loved
submarines. Don’t psychoanalyze me. And submarines were the main weapon I think that won
the Cold War. I really believe that to my dying day. And I had the pleasure and honor, when I
was a lowly intern in August of 1972, of hearing all this commotion outside of my emergency
room that was my emergency room on rotation that whole month. I hear this commotion outside.
It’s Admiral Zumwalt who was the Chief of Naval Operations. Literally dragging in Admiral
Hyman Rickover, and I am the doctor on duty. And I have several corpsmen, or medics as they
are called in the Navy, corpsmen and corpswaves. And he says to me, “Young doctor, I think, I
think Admiral Rickover is having a heart attack.” And I said, “Oh my god, yes.” You could tell,
just the, the—it was awful. We got the gurney, I mean everything worked like clockwork and
everything just went super well. And I respected Admiral Zumwalt, first of all, before even
getting to meet him, as a realm human being. And he did reform the Navy as far as some of the
standards and so on. Which is great, which is great. You have to sometimes think outside of the
box, as a leader. And—but you do it peacefully, slowly. You have to do it slow. And anyway, he
stayed right at the bedside with Admiral Rickover, and Rickover said, “I don’t want to stay here,
you are all over-reacting.” And I said, “No sir, we are not over-reacting. You’ve had a massive
heart attack, and we are going to get you into the coronary care unit, and we are going to
transport you there with the help of people.” And Zumwalt stayed that night with him. He helped
us pull, push the gurney and everything. And he says, “Can I do something?” You know. And I
think he carried the IV bag and everything. I mean, that’s how down to earth these German were.
�But he, Admiral Rickover, is shouting, you know, “I don’t want to stay here, I don’t think I need
to stay here, I feel better.” So we got him into the coronary care unit and everything was
wonderful. And he remembered my name, years later. Because, in 1983, shortly before I left the
active Navy, he was outside of our allergy clinic because we gave all the vaccines for
mobilization. Well, he had been invited by the Chinese to inspect their nuclear Navy. They were
going to honor him. And he said, “I don’t need those vaccines. I am not going to get those
vaccines.” And I heard the commotion. I went out there. His second wife, who was the nurse for
the first wife who had passed on, his second wife was a little bit younger. And she said to him,
“Heimie, listen to this young doctor.” Me! And I said, “Admiral, I don’t think you remember me,
but—” And I had a badge on. “But,” I said, “that August night in 1972 when the Admiral
Zumwalt brought you in for that heart attack, we got you through that with the help of God, and
this time, you do need vaccines. Because we need many vaccines. I don’t want you to get sick
over there.” And he wasn’t going for about two weeks anyway, three weeks, so it would have
had time for the vaccines to really work. He says, “But I hear they make you sick.” And I said,
“Yes, they do. That’s why you have time to rest a little bit.” “I can’t rest!” But the wife calmed
him down, and said, “Listen to him, listen to this young doctor.” And that’s my famous story
about Admiral Rickover.
(0:50:30)
Interviewer: Alright, now I am going to back up a little bit. So we kind of covered the sort
of full time you had in active duty. Early on in that first year, did you ever get any kind of
Navy training in terms of how to march and salute and that kind of thing?
Veteran: Yes, it was about a week before the internship started.
�Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: At Bethesda.
Interviewer: And how seriously did they take that?
Veteran: I would say moderately seriously. They said, basically, you have inspections and those
you have to take seriously. The uniform has to be crisp and clean. And this is still my uniform. I
still fit in it, God bless. People get jealous, they say “How can you fit in this uniform from
1993?” And I said, oh—
(00:51:32)
Interviewer: Well it is from 1993 rather than 1973 so you were given a little bit of help
there.
Veteran: Yeah, that’s right. I had an older uniform but that’s gone.
Interviewer: So you stayed in the reserves until 1993?
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Alright, so now you think that you learned—
Veteran: Yeah, we learned to march during that week and so on. And it was who to salute, who
you don’t have to salute first or anything like that. And you can salute just out of respect, I mean.
And the medical department in any of the military branches are unique. And some of the active
duty military people felt at that time that you weren’t really in the real military. But, in 1984, I
got selected to go for combat casualty simulation down to Texas. And then I learned more there
about the real military. And that’s when I aligned myself with the marines in battlefield
simulation. Because I was older and not so, well, I was physically active of course but not of, not
�like the marines. They made me the radio man. And they had three marine guards around me at
all times in the battlefield, or on the periphery of the battlefield. So I would call in for airstrikes
against the enemy.
(00:53:03)
Interviewer: So you got like, because the Navy corpsmen get training with the marines for
sort of a combat field training—
Veteran: Yes, yes they are excellent.
Interviewer: And so they do—so in a way you were getting the doctor’s equivalent of that,
at least the reserve doctor’s equivalent of that, on a limited scale?
Veteran: Yes, on a limited scale.
Interviewer: So they’re showing you a little bit about what the marines do in the field?
Veteran: Mhmm. Even helicopter rides down in Texas. And nighttime simulation. I felt an M16
in my back, and I had the armband, the Red Cross arm band. And I said “What about Geneva
Convention?” “What convention?” Boom-boom. And in Vietnam, to tell the truth, I’ve known, I
knew corpsmen. And one in particular, he became a Captain. He went—he was a mustanger, he
went through. He was my administrative duty officer, John Auchorn, wonderful person. He’s
still with us, thank God. Wonderful, wonderful person. And he told me about the horrors of
Vietnam when he was a corpsman. They initially had to wear the helmet with the Red Cross on
it. That was the perfect target for the Viet Cong. And finally, an order came down: you don’t
have to wear that helmet. Because they want to kill off the medics, the radio people…
(00:54:47)
�Interviewer: Yeah, the officers, the machine gunners, yeah the—
Veteran: Exactly. Disenfranchise the whole unit, you know.
Interviewer: And the various places where you might wind up in an armed conflict from
the 80s, or certainly more recently, may well be places where they have no particular
interests in things like the Geneva conventions.
Veteran: Yes, that’s right. I have a wonderful buddy currently, he’s a physician’s assistant at
Cherry Street. His name is Larry Brewer, and he is wonderful. He was in the Air Force initially,
in Vietnam during the Tet offensive. One of his friends in the distance was blown apart by a
shell. After that, he went into the Army, became a nurse and then a physician’s assistant. And
he’s still a physician’s assistant at the Cherry Street Healthcare System after 30-some years. And
I used to volunteer there, that’s how I got to meet him.
(00:55:49)
Interviewer: Now during the time when you were in the Navy, I mean did you notice any
kind of echoes or reverberations from Vietnam or responses to the war? Things like that,
or how did that effect you?
Veteran: I saw some of the returning POWs, we all did, and they had the Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder totally. I mean, it was so tragic. And some of the doctors didn’t recognize it completely,
because it was relatively new.
(00:56:30)
Interviewer: That was like in 1970, 3 or 4, in there. Yeah.
�Veteran: Exactly, exactly. And it was, that was talked about. And we knew—we started noticing
problems already then about the defoliant, slowly but surely.
Interviewer: Yep, Agent Orange. Right.
Veteran: Agent Orange. And ironically, it was Admiral Zumwalt that recommended that it be
used along the Mekong River to defoliate the hiding places for the Viet Cong, because we were
losing soldiers along the Mekong every day. Every day, the casualty rate was really bad. So. And
he was reassured by Dow Chemical that it’s safe: “it’s not safe for plants, but it’s safe for
humans.” Well, we know better now. And I have seen Agent Orange diseases. I have seen them
personally, and it’s horrific. It’s horrific. And it should all teach us a lesson that chemicals do
hurt the immune system, first of all, and they can cause many problems with different organ
systems, including the immune system. Admiral Zumwalt’s son—Admiral Zumwalt went into a
depression because his own son volunteered for Vietnam, along the Mekong River, so he was
constantly exposed to Agent Orange. He dies of lymphoma. Non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. That’s
one of the diseases. Anything that alters the immune system is going to cause trouble for us. Any
chemical. I don’t care what it is.
(00:58:29)
Interviewer: Alright, now, another side of the whole Vietnam thing is essentially—it’s
political but it’s also a transformation of the military, becomes all volunteer. There’s
various responses to the anti-war movement and then there is a congress at times that is
going to be less inclined to provide funding. Now within the Navy itself, at least the part of
it that you’re dealing with, did that effect—did any of that sort of stuff effect the morale of
the people in the service? Or did you still have people who were pretty much the same?
�Veteran: With some of the enlisted, it did. And I must be honest, some of the officers too. I was
initially for the Vietnam war, but when the Tet Offensive occurred, because we had been told
that we have this thing under control. But, a guerilla movement, ISIS for example now. It’s
difficult to control militarily, standard military operations, against a guerilla movement. The
British couldn’t do it in 1776. Or in 1775 at Lexington and Concord. The kind of—I mean the
militia, minute men, were guerillas, figuratively.
(00:59:48)
Interviewer: At least when they fought that way, that was most successful.
Veteran: Sure. And the British said “this is no gentlemanly way of waging war.” And I am going,
“my God, what is gentlemanly?” What defeated the Germans in the Soviet Union? Partisans,
primarily.
Interviewer: Well, not, maybe not primarily. But they were part of it.
Veteran: But they were part of the Red Army. And history is…
Interviewer: Yeah. But basically, it became a lot more complicated than it was supposed to
be. Yeah, okay.
Veteran: And surrounding Leningrad, the Russians should take a lesson from that, what they are
doing in Aleppo. It’s their Leningrad—I mean, it’s the reverse of, well, the Nazis did Leningrad,
the Russians are doing Aleppo. I mean, it never ends. It never ends. Inhumanity.
(1:00:40)
Interviewer: Alright. Now, to think back on the period when you are on your active duty in
the Navy, are there other memories that kind of stand out for you? From that period?
�Veteran: Yes, the people at the top during my active duty years of 12, well 11 active duty years
on and off at Bethesda and at Annapolis too, the higher ups—if you were willing to work, if your
morale was—if you were uplifting to people, they loved you. It was that simple. And treat each
person with respect, which they deserve. The Golden Rule. Follow the Golden Rule and you will
succeed in America. If you don’t want to follow the Golden Rule and you think you’re the
hotshot of everything…Guess what? People will…If they see you are trying and if they see that
you are really struggling, but you are trying, they will give you a lending hand. We are the most
generous nation on the planet. Who supports the United Nations, for the most part? Who
supports NATO, for the most part? Who supports SEATO, for the most part? I mean you know,
Southeast Asia Treaty Organization.
(1:02:26)
Interviewer: Yep. All that was there.
Veteran: Yeah. I mean, it’s America. And with manpower and supplies and everything.
Interviewer: Right. Now how was time in the Naval Academy? How was that a different
job?
Veteran: Wonderful. It was wonderful, but I came to find out that the midshipmen were students.
Students first. Yes, they had some family traditions to uphold. And several of them came to me,
confidentially, after the first year, okay? Freshman year, they call it the fourth year or something
like that. And they say to me, “I don’t want to stop here, I want to go further.” And I said,
“Listen, chances are—” “Well my father was in the Navy, my grandfather was in the Navy…”
and so on. I said, “That’s wonderful. Wonderful for history. And you. That’s history. You’ve got
your own life. And it comes time, sooner or later, you’ve got to make your own decision about it.
�About your own lifestyle, your own style of living. And if you drop out before the sophomore
year—I mean if you drop out before the end of the sophomore year, you owe no obligated time.”
At that time, that was the thing. So several did drop out, but most stayed in. And they were—
they were very good. Very good, upstanding citizens. And I think they are going to be, or they
are, good leaders. Good leaders. And they invited me to the lunches at Bancroft Hall where they
eat up to 6000 calories, because they are constantly exercising and everything else. 6000
calories. And they kept looking at me, “You’re not eating enough.” I said, “I am eating enough
for an adult.” But they were good, they were good. And we sponsored several midshipmen. And
they all have been wonderful and we keep in touch with them, and they’re successful in industry.
(1:04:54)
Interviewer: What does it mean to sponsor them?
Veteran: Oh, when they are freshmen especially, they look for sponsors in the community. We
stayed in Annapolis from ’76 to ’83. We decided not to move out of Annapolis. And we were
from Michigan, so we sponsored 3 Michiganders, midshipmen, freshmen midshipmen, and they
couldn’t get over the fact that I didn’t know some of the rules, you know. And so they taught me,
very privately, very nonthreatening, you know. Some of the rules and so on, which was helpful
to me. Especially as chief of a department, you know.
(1:05:39)
Interviewer: Maybe you ought to know those things.
Veteran: But they were good, they were good. I think America can be proud of its military
academies. They’re not the type that would push the button, you know? Let’s say it that way.
And the wonderful thing about our U.S. Constitution is always, always, there is civilian control
�over the military. And that was—that’s what helped us, has saved us, a countless number of
times. If you can fire the Commander in Chief, like Nixon, my goodness! That’s unheard of.
(1:06:25)
Interviewer: Well, you can also fire a guy in the Army, like a MacArthur, if he makes too
much trouble.
Veteran: Right! When he refuses to salute the Commander in Chief.
Interviewer: Okay. Now what kind of other things that kind of stand out for you, I mean
like in your active duty period? Or have we hit kind of most of the main points of that
now?
Veteran: Most of the main points.
Interviewer: Okay. Now you stay in the reserves for some time and they do have a variety
that—
Veteran: Yes, nine and a half years.
Interviewer: You have, and you had mentioned already, training with the Marines in ’84—
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: Did you get other training stints or other things while in the reserves?
Veteran: Well, what I did, I was commanding officer of the medical unit in Grand Rapids, and
then in Muskegon, and then they closed Muskegon on us, so I went back to Grand Rapids as
commanding officer of the medical unit. And what we did, we had the different corpsman and
the different officers, we had several nurses, we had an anesthesiologist, we had a neurologist to
�give lectures to the other units to just get them up to date on CPR, to get them up to date on
what’s happening in medicine for their own care, too. And who knows? Like the Seabees, they
see medical emergencies a lot when they are on—when they are doing construction work, oh my
goodness. And one of my best friends to this day yet was a chief in the Seabees in Grand Rapids,
and he and I stay in touch you know. And great, great person. And he took over the CPR training
from our medical unit for the Seabees. So we worked—we have to work as teams. No person is
an island. Especially in the medical field. And that is what I used to tell the corpsman, “I don’t
care what your rank is, that’s manmade. That’s manmade. But when we have a patient in front of
us, or an emergency in front of us, I don’t care what your rank is.” Like I won’t ask my plumber,
“Did you got to college or didn’t you?” Or my electrician. You know, I am not interested in that!
I am sorry. I don’t—
(1:08:38)
Interviewer: As long as you know they are licensed.
Veteran: Yeah! Can you do the job? You know? And that’s all I ask of people: are you qualified?
Can you do the job for me? And if you do a good job, believe me, I will give you good reports
yearly. And you will get promoted. And I can almost guarantee it: you will get promoted. I’ve
only had one corpsman in all of my career that said, “I could have gone to medical school, you
know.” And I said, “Okay? Why didn’t you?” And one of the answers he gave was, “My wife
didn’t want me to go.” I said, “Can I call up your wife?” “Ah, no, I have to go somewhere else
right now.” And I am going…No, don’t lie. You know? And don’t get jealous. Look at what
jealously did to Germany. The jealousy yields hate, and hate yields the worst things in us.
(1:09:49)
�Interviewer: Alright. Now, it’s pretty clear here from our conversation that your time in
the Navy was a very positive experience for you.
Veteran: Very positive for me. I was lucky.
Interviewer: If you wanted to kind of sum up what it is that you learned from it or took out
of it, what would that be?
(1:10:05)
Veteran: Camaraderie. Respect. And getting respect in turn. And being humble, and making you
realize that you’re just a mere mortal that has to go through a journey that we all have to go
through. And the great equilibrator is: you are born naked, and guess what? You’re going to go
naked. Either way. But that—important lessons. And teamwork. And I still miss that teamwork.
That, we don’t have as much in the civilian sector of medicine. And especially now, these are
difficult times for American medicine because it’s transition time. So many changes have come
down the road. I still work part time as an allergist in my old office. And the changes are
overwhelming. And my generation is at fault, and I blame my generation, because during
medical school, most of us said, “We really don’t want to know much about the business of
medicine. We want to see patients, we want to help a little bit each patient, and so on. But leave
the business up to someone else.” Well, oh boy! It was like a tsunami, coming down the road.
The insurance industry said, “Oh, we’ll help you.” The business community said, “Oh, we’ll help
you. We’ll help you organize.” And now…
(1:12:02)
Interviewer: Now you’ve got the government too.
�Veteran: Now you’ve got the government on top of us. And supposedly, in 2018, all of these
software systems for electronic records are supposed to interface, so that if you get stuck in
California, they can access your medical record in California into our system. And they claim it’s
going to be hack-proof. And I’m going, “Okay...”
Interviewer: Yeah, okay. Well, just don’t tell the Russians.
Veteran: The Russians are chess players. We forget that.
Interviewer: Alright. Anyway, your own journey here has been a pretty remarkable one, so
I’d just like to close here by thanking you for taking the time to share it today.
Veteran: Thank you for having me.
(1:12:53)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_HierlwimmerU1965V
Title
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Hierlwimmer, Ulf (Interview transcript and video), 2016
Date
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2016-10-13
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Ulf “Ulie” Hierlwimmer was born on May 31 st in 1945, in the Soviet occupied zone of Germany. When he was around one year old, his mother moved their family to the safety of West Germany while his father was in the German Army. After his discharge, Hierlwimmer's family moved to the United States and settled into Detroit, Michigan, in 1953. Hierlwimmer pursued his ujndergraduate degree at Wayne State University before he was accepted to Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine. During the Vietnam War, he joined the Navy to continue his studies and became a pediatrician at Bethesda Naval Hospital, Maryland. After completing a fellowship in allergies, immunology, and asthma, worked as an active Navy doctor from 1972-1983, and then for nine and a half years in the reserves.
Creator
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Hierlwimmer, Ulf Rainer
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy. Naval Reserve
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d781ecc5617d42b8d1dff431d34c0af7.mp4
000ad324421ffa2f0bc6c2302d5b98e4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a2486c1588d01fa83a1479913d365c5.pdf
5c8b685d63cfc0848f84c9c061ef9844
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Paul Hansmann
Interview Length: (1:30:51)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: We’re talking today with Paul Hansmann of Coons- Coon Rapids, Minnesota.
The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History
Project and we're conducting this interview at the 2015 Ripcord Reunion. Okay Paul can
you start off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were
you born?
I was born in August 28, 1948 in Cincinnati, Ohio.
Interviewer: Alright did you grow up in Cincinnati or did you move around?
I was there until I was in fifth grade and then we moved to Springfield, Illinois and I stayed in
Springfield and graduated from high school in Springfield.
Interviewer: Okay and what did your family do for a living when you were growing up?
My dad was a baker and he worked for a commercial- commercial bakery all of his life. And my
mom was a stay-at-home mom most of the time, later on she went to work for the Salvation
Army.
(1:11)
Interviewer: Okay and so what year did you finish high school?
I graduated from High School in 1966.
Interviewer: Okay and then what did you do after graduation?
I went- went to college in Cedarville, Ohio which is a Baptist College. And I went two years
there and then I dropped out of college there and went back to Illinois and got a job in the bakery
�and worked in the bakery for a while and that's when, that would’ve been 1968 and my wife and
I got married in ‘68. She was a, I met her at college, and we got married in Iowa, she came from
a farm background and we were married in- in Iowa in 1968.
(2:11)
Interviewer: Okay, now were you aware of the possibility that once you're out of college
you might get drafted?
I was aware of that and I didn't, kind of a little bit of a rebellious part of my background and- and
I didn't necessarily give a whole lot of thought to it, but I thought no after I get married I
probably won't get drafted so, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah and if that had been a few years earlier you would have been right,
cause that was an exemption there for a while. Alright now well when do you get your draft
notice?
I got my draft notice in… that, we got married in June of ’68. I got my draft notice probably in
September timeframe of ‘68. And was told to report I think it was the 1st of February, end of
January or 1st of February of ‘69.
(3:22)
Interviewer: Okay now did you go through a physical as part of the, this process?
Yes.
Interviewer: Alright and where did you do that?
In St. Louis Missouri.
Interviewer: Okay and when you went for the physical did you notice anybody trying to
defeat the system or get disqualified or were you all cooperating?
�Pretty much all cooperating, I- I didn't notice… it seemed like that most of us were, if we had an
ailment or something like that you tended to hide it rather than play it up. See that was from my
perspective anyway that's what it seemed like.
Interviewer: Alright how much did you know about the war in Vietnam at that time?
Not very much.
(4:11)
Interviewer: Okay.
Really not, my dad was a World War II veteran and so that's probably why it didn't bother me
one way or another, if it was my duty to serve then so be it.
Interviewer: Yeah and were you aware at all of the anti-war movement going on?
Oh yes, yeah there was a, there were, the college that I went to out in Ohio was very close to
Antioch University and of course they were… me being from a Baptist background and them
being from Antioch it was, there was a lot of drugs at Antioch, and long hairs, and war
protesters, and so we saw a lot of that.
Interviewer: Yeah but they were sort of the other guys.
Yeah, they were different.
Interviewer: Yeah, Cedarville and Antioch are about as opposite as you could get probably
at that point.
Yeah, we were.
(5:06)
Interviewer: Alright yeah okay so you know, you go, you go to the physical, where do you
go for basic training?
�Went from St. Louis where we got the physical and the swore in procedure, and went to Fort
Bragg, North Carolina.
Interviewer: Okay.
For basic training.
Interviewer: Alright when you got to Fort Bragg, I mean where there many people from…
were you drafted officially out of Ohio as opposed, or- or out of Illinois?
Out of Illinois.
Interviewer: Okay and they sent you to Fort Bragg.
Right.
Interviewer: Were there a lot of guys from Illinois there or?
Not a lot but I had one very close friend who he and I went the same church when we were in
high school, and he went to a different high school but we were in the same church together so
we were in youth group and stuff together and- and we got drafted on the same day. He was also
married so that, we had that in common and- and so we went through basic training together.
(6:07)
Interviewer: Alright when you get to Fort Bragg what kind of reception do you get?
Loud and proud, a lot of screaming, a lot of yelling. February and in Fort Bragg, North Carolina
it was cold and sandy and, but it was a lot of screaming and yelling and kicking things, and trash
cans bangin’, and you just kept quiet.
Interviewer: Right, welcome to the army right away.
That's right.
Interviewer: Now do you have a few days of processing before the regular training starts?
�None that I remember, they kind of mixed that in as things went along. Spent a lot of time doing
push-ups and...
Interviewer: Alright so they, okay because it seems to vary from place to place from what
kind of experience you get. Of course, Bragg is home of like 82nd Airborne so there may be
some of that rubbing off there, I don't know. Okay so they're working you out pretty hard,
did you have any idea of what to expect when you got there?
Absolutely none.
(7:12)
Interviewer: Alright.
I had heard horror stories but really didn't- didn't- didn't have any idea of firsthand of what to
expect. So, it was kind of a rude awakening, people yelling at you, and they- they were more
interested in getting you into physical condition and- and which that didn't intimidate me at all
because I’d played basketball in college and so I was in pretty decent shape and…
Interviewer: Okay, so how long did it take you to adjust to the army way of doing things?
Not very long they- they saw to it that you just kept your mouth shut and did what you were told
and that's exactly what the goal was, is to react to orders not with a questioning mind but with
just a blind following.
(8:15)
Interviewer: Alright and then aside from the- the PT part, what does the training consist of
in basic?
Weapons training, familiarizing yourself with- with the language, the phonetic alphabet, the map
reading skills, a lot of that kind of stuff. All different types of weapons that- that you would use
later, how to talk on radio, how to wire explosives, a lot of different things.
�Interviewer: Okay, now the drill instructors, what proportion of them do you think had
been to Vietnam?
Darn close to 100 percent.
Interviewer: Okay did anybody say anything about Vietnam or was it just all by the book?
(9:12)
No, it was, there was a lot, especially in the harassment stages as they were training us, there was
a lot of them that you know we talked about, “if you don't do this, you're not gonna survive.”
You know and- and because that was the- the thought process at that point in time is that
everybody was going, you know you were here, you were going to Vietnam period.
Interviewer: Okay cause early ‘69 is about the peak in terms of American numbers in
Vietnam and we go down after that, but they were training a lot of people at that point.
Yep.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay so you do that and were there other guys who were having trouble
with the training or would wash out or get put behind?
Yeah there were quite a few, a lot of the guys were out of shape, somewhat soft, and then you
had guys on the other end of the spectrum that were, it was a cakewalk for ‘em. So, it was, you
had some on both sides but not a whole lot washed out. They kind of got ‘em back around and
got ‘em in better shape.
(10:20)
Interviewer: Alright how long did the training last?
Basic training was eight weeks.
Interviewer: Okay, and what did they did with you next?
�We went to Fort McClellan, Alabama for advanced infantry training and it was a beautiful
scenario. Let me backup just a little bit, toward my, toward the end of my training in basic, I
contracted double pneumonia. So, they took me into the hospital and temperature was around
105 and they packed me in ice and got my fever down and everything, so my lungs were all full
and I was pretty sick boy for a while. And I spent a week in a hospital, and they wanted to keep
me there, and I talked them into letting me out because I knew if I stayed more than a week, they
would make me go through, back through basic training again and recycle. And the only thing I
really had to complete yet was an ending physical training test, a PT test they called it. So, I had
to pass it in order to graduate. All my test scores and everything had all been completed and they
were fine. So, I had to go out and go do a PT test and I still had double pneumonia actually. And
running a mile when you've got double pneumonia it as a challenge believe me.
(12:00)
Interviewer: Alright.
But we went from there to Fort McClellan, Alabama and it was basically more of the same- more
of the same training, not quite as much yelling, and more in- in-depth training I would say.
Interviewer: Are you getting more into tactics and that kind of thing now or?
Yeah, we were a lot more map-reading, observation, learning how to navigate, we had night
navigation courses, and survival training that type of thing.
Interviewer: Did they make any effort to sort of simulate conditions in Vietnam?
They tried to you know as much as you can with Alabama and its totally different country, but it
was, they did pretty well with that.
Interviewer: What would they do in terms of that, what would they try to show you?
�They would set up booby traps, punji pits, those kind of things. How to- how to be aware of your
surroundings and- and look for certain things, what trails, you know they would look like in
Vietnam and- and what to look for, and that type of thing.
(13:21)
Interviewer: Okay and at a certain point you wind up getting selected to go to- to NCO
school, now was that a something, decision that was made back in basic or was that at AIT,
or how did that happen?
I think that was at AI- AIT and they had a battery of tests and it, they selected people based on
test scores out of it. And in different areas, not only physical test scores but also on aptitude and
decision-making and those type of thing. So, I was selected to go to NCO school. I had the
opportunity to turn it down if I wanted to but my logic at that point in time was I had done the
calculation on, okay what is, how much time does it take for each one of these, and I thought that
it would be a lot better to spend as much time as I could in the States and be able have my wife
come down and- and live off post and then go to Vietnam so that when I came home I would be
out. Or if I didn't come home, then I would have spent as much time with her as I could have, so
that was the logic pattern I used.
(14:44)
Interviewer: Alright so in the first stages of training she wouldn't have been there, right?
No.
Interviewer: She was back at- back at home but, and then how long was the NCO school
scheduled to last?
NCO school was ten weeks.
Interviewer: Okay.
�And she came down after probably a couple weeks. Her and the friend of mine who went to Fort
Bragg with me, we go, we had gone through all the same training together and he was also
selected for NCO school. And so, his wife and my wife loaded up the car and they came down
together.
Interviewer: Okay.
And they stayed off post.
Interviewer: Alright and what kind of accommodation did they find? Do you remember
that?
Trailer.
Interviewer: Okay.
(15:28)
They lived in a trailer, off of, outside of Fort Benning and they became very good friends, close
friends, and did everything together and then they could come in and visit us on Wednesday
nights. And then on the weekends we generally got a pass, the married guys got a pass to go off,
back to the trailer and spend the weekend with ‘em.
Interviewer: Alright now what was the NCO training like?
A lot of shit, a lot of leadership skills, how to direct men, how to position them, how to just be in
charge. They- they were trying to train leaders, and, in all aspects, I guess.
Interviewer: Okay and this was again geared toward Vietnam?
Absolutely it was.
Interviewer: And the people training you and were they sharing any of their own
experiences, or were they just focusing on here are these skills, just do it this way?
(16:37)
�I got to know a few of them and at nights sometimes they would share some stories, but you find
out that after you've been to Vietnam it's pretty hard to talk to somebody about it that hasn't been
there, or it doesn't understand. But you start to, as you get to know ‘em, and they get a little more
comfortable with it then yeah, they would share. Especially if you pointedly asked them
questions, then they would generally.
Interviewer: Okay but by this time did you want to know as much as you could about what
you were getting into or were you just kind of just going through the program?
Just going through the program. I- I really didn't, I really didn't try to learn anything extra as far
as what they had been through or what it was, what to look forward to because I knew that all
that, everyone was gonna be different.
(17:39)
Interviewer: Okay so that was a ten-week course, you finished that. Now what do they do
with you?
Well then, we had to go what they called OJT, and on-the-job training. So, we went to Fort Polk,
Louisiana and went down there and were the cadre, the sergeants for a basic training company
that was going through their cycle. So, we went through their cycle as their NCOs for eight
weeks and our wives, we actually lived off post then because my friend and I both went there,
and of course the wives went along and we lived on post with them in a 10 by 50 trailer for a
while. And we were off post had to be back on post like at 4:30 in the morning. So, we would
leave in the middle of the night, go back to post and then come back home that evening.
(18:45)
Interviewer: Right because your sergeants now at this point, so you got a little bit more
status and a few other things. How did the more experienced, because you would have had
�other trainers there who had been to Vietnam and that king of thing, how did they treat
you guys?
Like shake and bakes, you know that yeah, we had stripes, but we didn't know anything yet and
they were very much accurate. They, we- we have the rank and we have the authority over theInterviewer: The troops.
Troops but as far as being if you had an E-5 buck sergeant who had been in Vietnam and was
back and he had the same rank as we did, there was absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind who
was in charge.
(19:35)
Interviewer: Alright now when you're doing your training whether it was in- in Fort
Benning or at- at Fort Polk were they taking any advantage of the available terrain, I mean
did you train in swamps at all or?
Oh yes, oh yes, a lot of our, and it got progressively more so as you went to Fort Polk because of
the- the availability of all the swamps and the really nasty jungle type atmosphere. And so, it
was- it was much more in our thought processes as, you know this could be more what it's like.
Interviewer: And what time of year were you at Fort Polk?
Fort Polk I was in…
Interviewer: Late summer or?
Late summer, yeah it had to be… we left Fort Polk probably 15th of December, so…
(20:39)
Interviewer: And how long a stent did you have there?
Eight weeks.
Interviewer: Okay.
�So, I've been back- back it up from.
Interviewer: Okay so back- back in a kind of early- early fall but in Louisiana that can still
be pretty hot and muggy.
It was.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And it was, it wasn't terribly nasty, but it was- it was definitely warm.
Interviewer: And so, I guess some of the time at Fort Benning would have been pretty hot
too.
Fort Benning was very hot, extremely so.
Interviewer: And did working in- in that kind of climate did that help you at all when you
got to Vietnam?
Some probably some, I- I don't we couldn't relate to the conditions because we couldn't duplicate
the- the weight load that you had to carry. If you had to go back and redesign it, you would
probably change because we didn't carry a full rucksack, we didn't carry all the ammo, all the
things that we had to hump around in the jungle you can't duplicate that.
(21:43)
Interviewer: The water, the C-rations, and all the rest of that.
That's right.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay so you've gone through all of this stuff, you get now to the end of
the year and do you get a leave before you have to go to Vietnam, is that how it works?
Yeah, I had two weeks before we had, two weeks or thirty days, don't remember. But before I
had to go to Vietnam and that was somewhat tough, somewhat scared to death. Not knowing
what the future holds.
�Interviewer: And did you take your wife back home to get re-settled or?
Took her back home and she actually lived with her parents, at that point in time she was
pregnant with our son and so it was, that was tough. It was challenging.
(22:40)
Interviewer: Okay and then where do you ship out from? You go to Oakland or Fort Lewis
or somewhere else?
Yeah Fort Lewis is where we left the States from and I thought that first flight took forever. It
was like 21 hours moving from Fort Lewis, to Alaska, to Japan, to Wake Island, and- and into
Cam Ranh.
Interviewer: Alright and I’m not sure Wake is exactly on the way. Guam maybe.
Yeah, but they made a little puddle stop there and I have no idea why.
Interviewer: Okay well it’s possible.
I- I don't know it could have been Guam. One of the times I stopped at Wake.
Interviewer: Yeah Wake might, if you went back to what, to California Wake is a stop.
I stopped at Wake Island one time and I can’t remember what …
Interviewer: Did you have an R&R in Hawaii eventually?
Yes.
(23:37)
Interviewer: Yeah that- that might have been for that because that would have been in
between.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright so you end up doing these things enough, okay I’m learning the
routes.
�Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright so yeah okay but it still basically it's just this tremendously long flight
you take over, did you get off the plane in Alaska or in Japan or did you just stay on?
We got off the plane and it was terribly cold in Alaska and, but it was, we got off plane, got to
stretch our legs and then got back on and kept on going.
Interviewer: Okay so where do you land in Vietnam?
Cam Ranh Bay.
Interviewer: Okay did you come in during the day or at night?
Came in during the day.
Interviewer: Okay and what's your first impression of Vietnam?
Like a slum and- and we got off the plane and actually they’re filing guys on to other planes that
have served their tours and that was a very eye-opening experience. That didn't do anything to
calm my fears let's put it that way that.
(24:37)
Interviewer: Okay now were they paying any attention to you or did you just, did they just
look scary or?
They- they just, they look like they'd been through hell. And- and they had been, and it was, they
looked so much older than us. I remember that- that sight of, why are all these old guys, you
know that, and they looked tough.
Interviewer: And you were probably older than quite a few of them?
Yeah, I was probably a couple years older.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Than a lot of the- the guys that were with us.
�Interviewer: Alright so now you get off the plane what do they do with you?
We had a seven day in-country training, getting aware of what's going on. Did some rappel work,
did some just general indoctrination of what to look for, what to, back through the- the boobytrapped scenario and- and getting your weapon, and getting comfortable with- with the
surroundings. Adjusting to the climate, those type of things.
(25:53)
Interviewer: Did they try to teach you anything about the Vietnamese society or how to
deal with the people or was it just military stuff?
Most of it as I recall was just military.
Interviewer: Okay now at what point do you know what your assignment is?
Sometime during that week, they, and- and I would guess based on what the casualties were andand what was going on they determined where they needed you, so.
Interviewer: Okay so- so okay, and so what do they assign you to?
We were assigned to the, I was assigned to the 2nd of the 506th, Bravo Company.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I was put in, I didn't know which platoon at that point in time that didn't happen till I got to
the company area but…
(26:42)
Interviewer: So, for the record you’re B Company 2nd Battalion 506th Regiment 101st
Airborne Division.
That's exactly right.
Interviewer: Okay person making this will appreciate that. Okay and where were they
based at that time?
�They were based out of Camp Eagle, Camp Evans and that was up close to Phu Bai and so that
was our next stop. We took a, I think it was a C-130 up there which was in I Corps, the
northernmost area in Vietnam.
Interviewer: Right and the area where really the most activity had been going on in the
previous year.
That’s right.
Interviewer: Hence the most losses. Okay so the, so I guess Camp Eagle is- is it Phu Bai
which is close to Hué and then Camp Evans I guess is a little bit north of that.
Yeah, that’s exactly right.
Interviewer: Yeah, closer to Quang Tri and Evans was where the Third Brigade was based
and that's what your battalion was part of.
That's right.
(27:42)
Interviewer: Okay and so you get up to Camp Evans, was the company there or were they
in the field somewhere.
Company was in the field.
Interviewer: Okay.
And all we had was just the new recruits or the new replacement people were there and we were
only there probably two days.
Interviewer: They, did they give you a training course up there or?
Not much, everything, training from that point in time was live-fire, you know and- and you
were gonna learn as you went.
Interviewer: Okay.
�If you survived, you learned.
Interviewer: Because a lot of the guys went through sort of the Screaming Eagles
Replacement Training thing which is like a week of orientation and patrolling and that
kind of stuff, but it might have just depended on the timing for you.
Could have done some of that, I don't recall.
Interviewer: Okay now how do you wind up joining the unit? Do you wait for them to come
back or do you go out?
(28:42)
Went out on a resupply helicopter. And they had blown an LZ, well no it wasn't, it was- it was
kind of more down in the foothills at that point in time so you could secure an LZ and- and get
your re…
Interviewer: Okay so you were in sort of the lowland area?
Yes- yes and- and it was relatively quiet at that point in time, so I had the opportunity it was, I
was put in- in charge of the squad even though I didn't know anything, but I was the highest
rank. And so, I was a squad leader and I'm gonna say six or seven guys.
Interviewer: Okay and how did you approach that? They'd been there longer than you.
How did you deal with them or introduce yourself to them?
(29:48)
Well my point to them was at this point in time when we go to the field, take all the stripes off,
take all the insignias off, we’re all, have one point here; is at the end of the year we all get to go
home. You guys know what you're doing, I would like for you guys to train me, so that you
know if there's- if there's communication between me and higher-ups I'll handle that, but as far as
what we do in the field, I need to learn as much from you as I can.
�Interviewer: And then how did they respond to that?
They were very, very helpful I mean they- they knew that the more that they could teach me, the
less apt I was to get them killed. And so, it was a crash course, but they were very good at it and
they- they were, they became very close friends.
(30:50)
Interviewer: Now did you have a sense of how long they had been with the unit or maybe?
Yeah that- that was the initial conversation, you know the- the icebreaker so to speak, is, “okay
how long have you been here?” You know and then it just it goes from there, where are you
from, you know what- what do you do, what are you gonna do? What, and we found some
common ground in different areas and things.
Interviewer: Had some of them been there long enough to have been in the A Shau Valley
the year before or?
Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah that kind of thing, so they had seen some real combat and- and that kind
of thing.
One of my closer friends had been, had gotten a Silver Star from the year before and so he had
been there and- and knew what it was all about. And- and was, I knew they knew what they were
talking about and so…
(31:46)
Interviewer: So, when was it exactly that you joined them, do you know the approximate
date for that? Or what month anyway? Still January…
It had to been in February sometime, I think.
�Interviewer: February, okay alright and then so where you patrolling in that area for a
while before you went anywhere else?
What they called Search and Destroy missions, which a lot of searching not much destroying
really going on at that point in time. But just familiarizing yourself with the areas, and what to
do, and what not to do, and- and how to set up a night defensive positions, and- and just how to
survive being out in the jungle.
Interviewer: Okay and then how much of a pack did you have to carry once you're out
doing that?
(32:35)
It and, it- it started out as one thing and then as you learn more you figured out what you needed
and what you didn't need and the, I would say our rucksack ran in that 60- 65 pound range.
Depending on some guys had an affinityfor hand grenades, and some guys carried extra belts of
m16 ammo, and it just, it varied from person to person, but you allowed ‘em that freedom
because they knew what they were doing. And I was to learn.
Interviewer: Okay, now when you're out there in the lowland area did you have any enemy
contact?
No not really, we- we didn't, we saw, we found some spider holes and things like that. Some
areas where some booby traps had been set up and- and things like that and blew them up. But
not really any enemy contact.
Interviewer: Okay and then at what point does their mission change? And do you go there,
somewhere else?
Yeah, the mission changed for me and I'm having a hard time relating the dates but we kind of
kept moving farther and farther to the west. Getting closer and closer to the mountains and- and I
�got more experience, sometime along in March the company commander had put together what
was called a battalion Killer Team and you basically what it was was a recon team. And we had
five guys on it, and I went out with, I was chosen as one of them and I went out with a friend of
mine named Joe Strucke and he had extended his tour, so he had already been in Vietnam
probably 14 months. And he went out as a leader and the process was for us to go into the
mountains around Ripcord AO and we see aid in there and repelled in and then we were left out
there for two weeks, and just to report back every night what was going on to avoid contact. And
Joe Strucke had done this before and he was good at it and had been through a lot of stuff so he
was training me to be the leader of the… so he was only with us for that two-week period and
basically to train all of us and me to- to be able to do what recon work they wanted done. So,
after the first two-week period then we got resupplied and Joe left us, and then there was just me
and the four other guys and we did that for another cycle or cycle and a part of another one
maybe and did that. We made no contact, it was basically a hide-and, hide-and-seek scenario.
We had, we- we saw Vietnamese, but we were to not engage them at that point in time just report
back.
(36:13)
Interviewer: So now is this March going into April that you’re doing this?
No, this is, this had to be in March.
Interviewer: All- all- all in March, okay.
All in March.
Interviewer: So, before April 1st, alright. So, and what were you observing at that time, you
could see enemy, what are they doing?
�Troop movements and troop numbers, what- what size units they were working in, you know
whether they farther down in the foothills or maybe two or three, as you got into the heavier
concentrations, or may have been six or eight moving together. So, just reporting troop
movements and- and- and staying out of sight.
Interviewer: Now was this scarier work than what you had done earlier?
Oh yeah it- it ramped up because when you saw you know six or eight of them out there and you
know there's only five of you it wasn't those six or eight that you were worried about, it was, you
know what's gonna happen from there.
(37:14)
Interviewer: Alright and do you have any close calls while camped out at night or
situations where they almost step on you?
Yeah- yeah and- and generally not late at night, it was generally getting toward dusk and- and
that type of thing when they may be walking down a trail and of course we were buried back in
the jungle as much as we could be. And you just hoped that nobody rattled anything, but the guys
were hand selected so, we knew which ones; no one snored, no one smoked, no one, you know
those type of things that were conducive to hiding.
Interviewer: Alright now did you encounter any- any wildlife, I mean were there snakes or
other kinds of things?
Snakes and quick little weasel, whatever they were called, I can't remember now. Name escapes
me but, Mongoose- Mongoose and- and every now and then you'd see a rat and whatnot, but a
lot of snakes, a lot of snakes and more mosquitoes then you could put in the country, or oughta
put in the country so…
(38:34)
�Interviewer: And could you do anything to protect yourself against the mosquitoes?
It- it took a while, you used to put on the bug spray but once we went out there on this team then
that stopped.
Interviewer: Yeah.
So, you could…
Interviewer: That- that would smell distinctive.
That’s right. So, you quit using that and we- we had become by that point in time, you began to
smell like the jungle. Because when I first went to the field it was sixty days before I got my first
change of clothes. So, that I- I smelled like jungle by then and not very, and no way a perfume
that you want, but I smelled like the jungle and everything, all my clothes had rotted off so to
speak. Didn't have- didn't have any underwear, didn't have anything other than my fatigue pants
and a t shirt.
(39:34)
Interviewer: They didn’t- they didn’t resupply you with any clothing?
Nope, for sixty days they didn’t.
Interviewer: Alright now was the first part of sixty days where you're still in the lowlands
and then you just have the same clothes and you've been with those out into the jungle?
Now when we went with the- with the Killer Team and went out there then we got camo
fatigues. So, we got the different colored fatigues and- and- and we would paint up our faces
and- and did some of that too, to help stay out of sight.
Interviewer: Right, okay so when did the- the Killer Team thing end?
That ended just shortly before April 1st. They pulled everybody in Bravo Company back in and
we were getting ready to go to Ripcord.
�Interviewer: Okay.
And that was planned for April 1st.
(40:21)
Interviewer: Alright so what do you remember about April 1st?
April 1st was very significant, I was being a squad leader, I had a- a smoke grenade. So, Ripcord
you could land three helicopters at the same time and we were to try and get the- the Combat
Assault in there as quickly as possible. Get all the boots on the ground we could. And so, I was
given, I was in that first wave and had a red smoke grenade in my hand just in case we got
incoming fire and it was a hot LZ. Of course, as we started coming in, boom, boom, boom, boom
the mortars started coming in and so popped red smoke and so did the other two helicopters, I'm
not sure who was on them but, and our designation we were given orders on what sector we were
to move to. And being on one of the first ones, we were designated to go the far end of the
firebase away from Impact Rock, and go to the far point as far as we could and spread my men
out, out there, get dug in. So, we went to the far end of the firebase and- and fortunately there
was hardly a foxhole out there and although not big enough but it was- it was there and we
secured that into the firebase but mortar rounds were raining in with regularity at that point in
time. That was 8 o'clock in the morning April 1st.
(42:01)
Interviewer: Alright now were the mortars targeting the area where you were, or they were
mostly going for wherever the helicopters were coming?
Mostly going for wherever the helicopters were landing.
Interviewer: Now how close were you to… because there eventually this is basically this is
sort of a- a bald hilltop at this point, kind of a rocky hilltop with other hills kind of around
�it and you're under fire and eventually the firebase would have sort of two helipads on it
and were you close to one of the areas that the helicopters would land on there?
No, we weren’t.
Interviewer: Okay.
We were, my squad was- was probably about as far away from the helipad as you could get
fortunately. And that- that was a good thing for us because most of the round, now every thenevery now and then you would have a round that would land short of there or long of there or
whatever else is they were directing their fire. And you would get, you know shrapnel going
overhead as rounds exploded and whatnot and you could hear ‘em, the rounds coming in, that
whistle is something that you never forget. So, every time one would come in of course we'd be
as low as we could get in the hole.
(43:08)
Interviewer: And were you taking any small arms fires or just mortars?
Heard some 50- 51 caliber rounds.
Interviewer: That’s the machine gun,
Okay.
Interviewer: Alright did any of your men get hit that day?
In the company, well Joe Strucke I told you about before, he happened to be with the command
group at that point in time. He was kind of the- the first sergeant in the field, he was an E-6 and
he- he was wounded. There were a lot of guys getting hit, a lot of- a lot of wounded as the
helicopters would come in, before they could get under cover somebody would get hit. And he
was wounded, he lost an eye and part of his arms got messed up, but that was the closest of our
group, of my squad group that- that would have been.
�(44:10)
Interviewer: Yeah but your own squad they those guys where okay.
They were intact.
Interviewer: Okay so now is it to you- you go in there kind of first thing in the morning
essentially, one of the first squads in. You- you dig in, you have your positions set up. What
happens now to you guys later in the day?
The- the rounds and- and this is a day-long process of trying to get all the equipment, the
engineers in, to- to get the artillery units in, and all that kind of thing. Trying, attempting to get
all this in here, the problem is that as you're trying to do all this there, the mortar rounds are
flying. And every bird that comes in, somebody gets hit. Well that requires another medevac and
then you're loading guys on the medevac and you put three or four guys on a medevac to get
them out of there and two of the guys that are helping load the bodies get hit. So, and the- the
helicopters were, they were going down. You know they- they weren't totally disabled but they
were shot up enough to where when they got back to Evans they took ‘em out of commission.
So, it was constantly of, you know what's the process here? How are you gonna be able to get the
wounded out, without causing more wounded?
(45:28)
Interviewer: Let alone do things like set up an artillery position.
An impossible task is what it was. So, later on in the day, it became very evident that this wasn't
gonna work. They just had it zeroed in too good and the Cobra Gunships and- and all that kind of
thing were flying missions all day long around us. Targeting potential gun sights and mortar pits
and things out there in the jungle that were firing at us. They were trying to destroy them. And
most of our day was spent trying to site where they were firing from so that we could direct fire
�and report back and- and let them know where it was coming from. And so, it was just a constant
juggling of trying to get the right thing done which I don't think there was a right thing.
(46:26)
Interviewer: Alright so now how does this situation resolve itself?
Eventually someone made the decision and handed down that we weren't gonna be able to
maintain our position there on the hill. So, the- the order was given that at midnight we would
walk off that hill. Well there had to be a lot of prep work done in advance of that, simply because
we had, at that point in time, we had three KIAS. And we had all this equipment from the
wounded guys, got all their rucksacks, and their weapons, and- and it was going on 60- 65
pounds a man. And all these guys gettin’ wounded. So, what are we gonna do with all of it? Well
what we ended up doing is we piled it all up in one great big pile. We buried the three guys that
were up there and were KIAS. And then so that we could be in position at midnight the, from
another firebase, an artillery unit was going to fire an illumination for us. And there was a
pathfinder group up there and they were gonna lead us down off of the hill to link up with a sister
company because we were pretty well shot out up at that point in time.
(47:52)
Interviewer: Alright and so how did that evacuation go?
The pucker factor went up really high because going for a walk at midnight in triple-canopy
jungle is not something I would recommend. And so, we were scared and after being shot at all
day long you can imagine. We set it all up, so the explosives were ready to go, and we started
down off of there, followed the ridgeline and we were gonna link up with Alpha Company. Got a
safe distance away to where they could detonate the, all the supplies and everything else, they
wrapped it all with det cord, tied all the explosive together, so it all went up in one great big
�charge. And after that it was just a matter of- of them firing illumination continuously from
midnight till four o'clock in the morning and it took us four hours to link up with Alpha
Company.
(48:58)
Interviewer: About how far do you think that distance was?
I have no idea yeah, I really don't I- I know it was a very cautious walk. It was…
Interviewer: So, it may have just been a kilometer or something like that.
It could have been, I- I really don't have any idea. I know it was- it was scary.
Interviewer: Where they just on one of the neighboring hills or ridges so your kind of going
down then back up.
Yeah that's- that's the way I kind of remember it and it was kind of, it kind of followed a
ridgeline and then and then back up the other side and we- we had to stop at the bottom before
was started to go back up because there had to be contact made with Alpha Company and then
kind of them guide us up through and where we ought to be and- and then they took us in and we
were pretty much a nervous wreck and they took us in and put us in the center of their perimeter
and said, “okay guys just crash.” And- and it was, you can finally take a deep breath and- and so
it was- it was a scary time, but it was also very, felt good when you finally got to- got to crash.
(50:19)
Interviewer: Alright so what do you do the next day?
Those- those days after that kind of became a little bit of a blur. It just, we went several days of
just patrolling around Ripcord again. And did a lot of things there was some point in time that we
actually went back to Evans, I don't remember when that was.
�Interviewer: Cause one of the other people from the company I interviewed talked about
being out there and pretty much running out of food.
We did that, absolutely I, it was a point in time when the- the weather got really bad and we were
soaked in and they couldn't get us resupply and we were- we were out of food and I remember
nobody had any C- rations. And one of the guys had a little tin with some crackers in it, four
crackers and some cheese and he was offered twenty- twenty dollars for that little, and that's all
there was. And, but we would, we were hungry, we were just flat hungry. And ended up, they
couldn't get an LZ, we couldn't get an LZ cut there for us, but Delta Company had gotten
resupply, so Delta Company took all of our supplies as well and it- it was just our process to link
up with them. So, that's what we did, and we spent a- a while trying to get with them and then
once we got to them, there again it was the same thing because we were shorting numbers. Our
company size was probably, I don’t know, I’m thinking there were only 35 or something like that
in our entire company.
(52:18)
Interviewer: How many do you think you took on to Ripcord originally?
Probably 75.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Somewhere in that neighborhood, so when we linked up with Delta Company then they took us
in, they knew we'd been without for a long time and- and Captain Rollison said, “you guys go in,
get your C- rations, eat as much as you want, just sit down and relax. Don't worry, we've got you
covered.” And so that was, there again that was one of those whew man through this one.
�Interviewer: Okay so part of what's going on at this point is the weather is bad enough it's
hard to be able to get back in and really conduct operations effectively because you can't
resupply, let alone establish a base up on top of Ripcords.
Right.
Interviewer: Okay so you do that, eventually you do get back to Evans and then you go
back out in the field again?
(53:05)
Yeah, we went back out in the field and more of the same Search and Destroy missions, looking
for the enemy trying to figure out troop strength. Preparing to go for another assault on Ripcord.
I knew that Alpha Company had tried in March to- to take the hill. We had tried April, and so I
assumed there was probably gonna be one of the other two companies that were gonna try it the
next time, so we were out in the jungle and I was tickled to death to be there to be honest about
it. That was, I felt safer out there than having mortar rounds raining it on your head.
Interviewer: And then Charlie Company then goes up I guess on 10th or 11th of April.
Yeah.
Interviewer: They walk up the side and for some reason don't get shot at.
(53:58)
For some reason and had the opportunity to actually establish the fire base, and of course they
had the perfect man there to do it. And- and Izzy…
Interviewer: Vazquez.
Yeah Izzy I a call him. Captain Vazquez was up there and of course didn't know about this until
many decades later his- his true expertise and- and why he knew what he knew, you know he
was- he was the man and all my respect for that- for that individual. But then it was so that
�would have been mid- April we were- we were kind of on a rotation then for, as I recall, it was
two weeks, we had four companies I don’t know if it was probably Delta and.
Interviewer: Charlie and Delta yeah.
Charlie, and we went, we were on the firebase providing perimeter support for two weeks and
then six weeks out in the jungle was basically what it was. So we were patrolling a round
Ripcord, just doing the same old thing, trying to survive and then along came May and we were
out in the field, and we probably had an objective to get to a certain point but it was actually, and
I expressed my opinion that that's too far to try and travel in one day. You just, you can't move
that far, and we had a relatively new lieutenant, matter of fact very new, but he was gonna try
and impress the brass and- and he stretched how far we should travel.
(55:51)
Interviewer: Now were the platoons operating separately at this point?
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay.
And so, and I may have been in a position at that point in time where I was the platoon sergeant,
and so we tried to move farther than we could. We got to that position, we made it but it didn't
give us time to set up listening posts, to get dug in, to scout the area, and- and see what we were,
to get our claymores set up, or any that kind of thing. We didn't have time to do that because it
was dark, so here we were, we got in there and we- we dropped our rucksacks and the guys are
exhausted and hadn't had anything to eat, when all hell broke loose. And they opened up on the
5th of May and- and started firing and RPGs and- and small-arms fire, machine-gun fire, a lot of
AKs.
(56:54)
�Interviewer: Now were you on a hilltop or inside of one or?
Kind of- kind of on a little rise, a little bit. We weren't way high up, but it was- it was a little bit
of a rise and because that was the best place we could find to try and get a vantage point. I
immediately picked up the radio because I had a lot of training in mortars from NCO school. So,
I could act as a forward observer and the first thing I did was got a hold of- of Ripcord and got a
hold of mortar platoon and called in a fire mission and started walking mortar rounds in on ‘em.
And the lieutenant he didn't know how to, I didn't really have much contact with him after that.
He was, I think it was his first firefighter or first experience, so he was pretty rattled. And so, I
handled that and I did probably made my biggest mistake as I, in order to see where the rounds
were firing so I could direct ‘em, I got up on top of a rock and had the radio in my hand well a
RPG round landed relatively close and- and I got hit in the neck and knocked me off the rock and
we had four, four or five other guys that got some shrapnel. No one was killed, but we were shot
up and we got the- the enemy was dispersed. They quit firing but the problem was they couldn't
get a helicopter in to- to get the wounded out. And they said, “well we'll just have to wait till
morning,” because there was no LZ anywhere around us. So, we spent that night out there and
then they came in the next day and they took all of- all of us wounded out in a jungle penetrate.
(59:01)
Interviewer: And can, describe what that was for someone who's never heard of one.
A jungle penetrator is a pronged seat that they lower down on a cable from a helicopter, so the
helicopter has to hover and drop this down through the- the trees and then you get on the seat and
hang on and they pull you, elevate you out without the helicopter ever landing.
Interviewer: Alright and they had to do that for five guys.
Yup.
�Interviewer: Did that have to be one at a time that they did that?
Well they actually brought in two birds.
Interviewer: Okay.
They brought in- they brought in two of them, one after the other one and so we got to go, and
we went to Danang. We went straight to Danang from the jungle.
Interviewer: Okay and then how long were you away from the unit then?
(59:51)
Had surgery on that next day and then was in the hospital there, woke up in intensive care. Was
in the hospital there for probably three/ four days, and then went from there to Cam Ranh Bay to
recover. Because they had left the- the wound open to allow it to drain. And they, I was there for
say two and a half weeks, something like that in Cam Ranh.
Interviewer: Now while you were there, we were able to get up and move around or did
they keep you in the bed?
No, I was- I was able to get up and move around. And really didn't, the scariest part was at the
hospital when we went in there because nobody was hurt terribly bad. And I, you know I was hit
in the neck but didn't feel bad or anything, but the doctor came out and said, “Sargent
Hansmann.” And I said, “yeah” and he said, “I want you to just remain still,” and I said, “okay
what's going on.” And they brought out a gurney and laid me down on a gurney and told me not
to move. And they took me in, what they found out was one piece of the shrapnel, a long piece
was lodged between my jugular vein and my spinal cord. And it was very close to both and so
they had I guess some tricky surgery to get it out without messing something up worse. But it -it
all turned out fine. And it healed up but some of the shrapnel stills in there but.
(1:01:41)
�Interviewer: Okay now we were talking about you were being treated at Cam Ranh Bay.
They've taken, done the operation, you’re recovering from that, you can kind of get around
and that sort of thing. So, what point soon, was there- was there anything else about that
stay that you wanted to bring into the story before we take you back to your unit.
It was a, everything went well with the recovery, spent some time going to movies, doing some
things that you, most people would consider kind of normal and yeah it was a- it was a good time
frame.
Interviewer: So, it was kind of a vacation?
Yeah, it was kind of a vacation.
Interviewer: Alright so when do you rejoin your unit?
Rejoined the unit in… some time the very first part of June, and went back to the unit, and was
basically, I think we, I rejoined them on Ripcord. I flew out to Ripcord and then was out there for
a few days because I think the unit was- was providing perimeter security but then sometime
very shortly after that we went back out to the field.
(1:03:00)
Interviewer: Okay.
So, we walked off Ripcord, somebody else took our place and we were out in the field and that
was until… June 12th my son was born.
Interviewer: Okay.
And he contracted, my wife had problems in childbirth, and he contracted double pneumonia and
was in really tough shape. Well of course I didn't know all this was going on back there at that
point in time, it was a few days after he was born that helicopter came out and had a chaplain on
it. And once again, they said, “we need to see Sergeant Hansmann.” And whenever that
�happened something bad was going on, he came over and he says, “I've got this for you Sarge,”
and it was a Western Union telegram. And the only thing that it says on the telegram is, “your
wife has given birth to a son. Baby's condition terminal. Wife's condition doubtful.” And that's
all I.
Interviewer: Wow
That's all that was on it. So, I was needless to say very upset, emotional, and he said, “Sarge,” the
chaplain said, “Sarge we're gonna take you back, you've been granted a 30-day emergency leave
to go back home, take care of your family.” So, got on the helicopter, went back still have no
idea what's going on, and no way to find out what's going on. Went back to the- to the base and
turned in all my gear, everything and first sergeant was there and he- he helped me with getting
all of the everything processed and everything done that needed to do and was very
compassionate with what was going on and helped me get all that done. Got on plane and went
down to, I supposed to Cam Ranh or Danang somewhere and got on a bird to go back home,
flew back home flew into SeaTac again and it was then in Seattle that I was finally able to make
phone call. And got ahold of- of the family and found out that my son had survived, and my wife
was doing fine and that by the time I got home from Seattle they were gonna be able to come
home, so, everything turned out beautifully. But and- and the backstory to that, my wife's doctor
who was delivering, delivered the baby and everything was a Vietnam vet. He was an Army
doctor in Vietnam, so he knew what procedures it took to get me home and all that and he did.
And so, my son recovered from pneumonia and although it stunted his growth some, he's only
6’5 and 230. But- but everything turned out well and so I got to spend 30 days here in the States
and then the- the hard part was I had to get on that plane and come back. So, then the, it was
probably 14th of July or something like that I came back to Vietnam. Went back up, took several
�days to get from Cam Ranh back up to the company unit to get my gear and everything and it
was- was getting ready to go back out to Ripcord. Well that got into the, right around the 20th or
so of July.
(1:07:16)
Interviewer: Okay.
And Top came down and said, “Sarge we're getting ready to pull everybody off that hill. There's
no sense in you going out there.” So, I was, I waited then and rejoined my group when they came
back, I was on the pad as they came back.
Interviewer: Alright and what had you been able to learn during that time about what had
happened at of Ripcord while you were gone?
It, just the stories that first sergeant and I would sit down, and- and he would share with me what
was going on, and how bad it was. And- and all the things that had happened, and at- at that
point in time I was, that was the beginning of my struggle with survival skills I guess, is this ain’t
good.
Interviewer: Because you had missed, because your company had been up there in the first
three weeks of July and that's when the base came under heavy bombardment. Eventually
helicopter crashed on the 18th, blew up the ammo dump then after that they kind of had to
go. But those guys had been through all of that and you were off doing all this other stuff.
Yeah.
(1:08:30)
Interviewer: Okay so, now… on, so the 23rd of July is when they actually evacuate the
base, what did you do that day?
�That day I was down on the helicopter pad and just helping the guys with their stuff, greeting old
friends, and- and consoling them and just, you know and they, there was absolutely no, they
didn't feel from their perspective like I felt in mine. That I wasn't there to help they said,
“Sergeant nothing you could do. There was nothing we could do,” you know you just but…
Interviewer: Okay, the company didn't lose too many men at- at that point.
No.
Interviewer: They had taken some wounded, not too many killed, but still they've gone
through all that and- and you hadn’t. Once they're back, now what happens to you and the
company?
We went, I think we went to Eagle Beach and- and then we're, you know kind of getting
everything realigned and kind of figured out. Everybody's trying to figure out where do we go
from here and what do we do. So, we went, eventually we went back out in the field again. And
in different AOs I don't even remember where.
(1:09:52)
Interviewer: Was this, it's still in the mountains or hill country?
Yeah- yeah it was and so we went back out and we were doing that and- and then I went on an
R&R because I hadn't taken one and I was still eligible for one. Around the 8th of August as I
recall and met my wife in Hawaii, which was again you know a relatively short period of time
since I'd seen her. Was- was really fun and we had a good time together and- and after that went
back with the company doing the same old things again and the same procedure, you know being
in the jungle and whatnot.
Interviewer: Now was there much contact at that time? Was it quiet?
(1:10:41)
�It- it seemed like it was a lot quieter at that point in time. And I had gotten to know our first
sergeant really well and- and I told him, “okay at some point in time as I'm getting shorter here
or have seen, you know, been wounded once, and have- have been through several things, if the
opportunity presents itself and you can pull me out of the field, send me to…” I said, “I'm trained
in mortars.” I said, you know, “just send me to a mortar platoon,” and, you know that’d be good
if it works out. And it took a while but sometime in later September then something opened up
and he said, “Sarge, gonna move into- in the mortar platoon for your last period of time,” and so
I was up there and- and got to know a lot of the guys, became a squad leader there in the mortar
platoon didn't know anything about mortars because I had forgotten everything I’d learned but
there again I was in the same situation and they knew where I’d been and what I’d done so they
were very comfortable with, they knew their jobs they didn't need me. And so, I just did
whatever was necessary to help them out and make their job easier. So, the last six weeks or so I
was there and that was a- that was really a good deal and to put it time-wise in perspective you
think, well that's doesn't add up to a year, but while I was home for that 30-day leave my father
in law made me an offer; he was a farmer and he said- he said, “what are you gonna do when you
came home?” And I was, in college I was an accounting major and I said, “I cannot see myself
sittin’ in an office,” I said, “I'd go nuts.” And he says, “well you want to come home and help
farm?” I said, “I'd love to.” So, I put in for an early out to go home and help with the harvest,
which was very legitimate and so I ended up getting an early out to come home and help farm in
November.
(1:13:10)
Interviewer: Alright now the meantime I guess with the mortar platoon were they usually
on a fire base somewhere?
�Yes, I was on Fire Base Kathryn and that's where I met Pops, John Henry. And a- a lot of thethe guys, matter in fact one of the guys I had been through NCO school with was there as well so
and it was relatively quiet at that point in time.
Interviewer: Now would the base take any incoming of one kind or another was it just
quieter?
Very little, if any.
Interviewer: Alright.
Very little, we would hear some AK fire every now and then and- and of course having been out
there and been involved in several different contacts and fire fights and whatnot. I- I could tell
how far away it was, I can tell which direction it was firing, and all that and it was kind of funny
because the mortar guys would, as soon as they hear an AK go off they’d grab a helmet, and
would bury underground and I was standing up there looking around because you can tell what's
going on and you, when you need to get down and when you don’t.
(1:14:16)
Interviewer: Yeah, alright so the, at some point back before the end of Ripcord, sometimes
mortars would actually go out in the field at least briefly with- with units.
Yeah.
Interviewer: But you weren't doing that at this time?
No, we were not doing that.
Interviewer: Okay a couple other kinds of questions is sort of a lot of stereotypes about
Vietnam and what went on over there and- and so forth. One of them has to do with just
the question of race and racial tensions, did you observe any of that yourself or?
�No, we really, we had no problems whatsoever. We had at some point in time there, I don't
remember, we had a platoon sergeant come in. His name of Jim Burdette, and very educated, he
had a master’s degree in mathematics. And he was an E-6 and, but he was drafted just like the
rest of us, went through NCO school, very intelligent, six-foot five black guy who- who
commanded a lot of respect but was a really, super intelligent, nice guy. And that kind of kept I
think any racial, that- that kept it down, although we didn't have any before that either.
(1:15:44)
Interviewer: Well you spent most of your time in the field too.
Yeah and there's no room for that.
Interviewer: Yeah- yeah and that again, that may apply to another one of the stereotypes
that has to do with- with drug use, I mean when you get back…
Absolutely none. Wouldn't stand for it, I- I wouldn't stand for it and neither did anybody else.
And we just, there was something, now when they were in the rear area or at Eagle Beach or
something like that, was some of that done? Could have been, I- I have no idea, but when we
were in the field it was absolutely taboo. You- you didn't do that cause you were gonna get
yourself killed and somebody else too, so.
Interviewer: And also, how much did you see of the Vietnamese themselves; I mean did you
have any Kit Carson Scouts around or anything like that?
(1:16:34)
We had a Kit Carson Scout on a few different occasions, not for long periods of time. We found
them rather worthless because they didn't want to walk point, they didn't want to walk slack.
They wanted to walk at the rear, and they wouldn't carry their share of the load, they wouldn't
work, I, we, I had no use for ‘em personally but it's- it's kind of like scout dog philosophy and we
�had that one episode with a scout dog that he led us right straight into an ambush and then the
dog died and the handler got all shot up and- and all those kinds of things.
Interviewer: Now the Kit Carson Scouts were supposed to be enemy soldiers who turn
themselves in, who could then show things to you. And in some cases, seem to be people
who are avoiding the South Vietnamese Army but- but so it kind of varied for how useful
any of them were. So, you've got that, now did you see any Vietnamese civilians like on the
base camps or around them?
(1:17:41)
Just back when we were in the rear, really didn't see, there were a few occasion when we saw
some Montagnard’s, wood cutters used to call them they- they would be out cutting trees or
whatever. And saw a few of those, but as far as much Vietnamese population, only in the rear
area. If- if they were in the jungle and they were Vietnamese, they were- they were a target in
our opinion.
Interviewer: Yeah because there weren't really regular villages or things out there in that
area.
No there were not.
Interviewer: Okay, now in the- in the rear area, I mean where these people who just
working on the bases or where their villages around or?
There were villages around and- and- and they- they were doing, you know hooch maids or
whatever else and- and that type of stuff. Working in- in some of the mess halls and that kind of
thing, so.
(1:18:41)
Interviewer: Yeah, but you didn't spend really any time in- in these built-up areas.
�No, I didn’t.
Interviewer: Particularly at all. So, okay and did you, what understanding did you have by
the time you left, how did you view the war itself?
Frustrated, would- would probably be the- the biggest word that would come to mind, simply
because of my experience with Ripcord, you know we tried to take it in March, we tried to take it
in April, we took it later on in April and established it, and we're up there, got a lot of guys
killed, a ton of guys wounded. And we had no idea until decades later what kind of enemy force
we were dealing with, and then ended up just walking away from ‘em and giving it all back to
‘em. And we, I have a hard time figuring out exactly what we accomplished. And my only way
of justifying everything is somebody else has to live with the decisions that were made and why
they were made. I only have to live with the decision that I did what my duty was as a soldier.
(1:20:04)
Interviewer: Right.
And- and supported- supported the leadership by doing what they asked and supported my men
by trying to take care of ‘em as best I could.
Interviewer: Alright now what's the process for getting you home once you- you get orders,
you can leave, now what do they do with you?
It was just a matter of like a day or two before I was supposed to go home. Came back to the
rear, got everything turned in, cleaned up, new set of fatigues, all those kinds of things. It was
kind of a fast blur at that point, trying to say goodbye to people, and- and hoping that they made
it. Got on the plane, went to Seattle, went through a process I think I was there probably a week
or so. Processing out, getting a physical and- and- and got a new set of dress greens, and had a
good meal and whatnot. And then went to the airport and I- I thought, boy can only be great from
�here, and I walked in the airport and of course there's all the protesters. And had signs
everywhere and I walked, first thing it is, I went to the bathroom, walked in there and here's a
trash can overflowing with dressed greens. Guys didn't want to have to deal with all the
protesters, so they put on the civilian clothes of course it's, you can tell a soldier that’s been in
war real quick and it didn't do ‘em any good to change their clothes but that's what they did. And
I thought that's really sad, that that is truly sad to see that, those dress greens just running out the
top of a garbage can. That image is still burnt in my brain and I thought, okay guys, I just went
through a war, if you think you're gonna get me to take this off I got news for you, have at it. So,
I left mine on and very proudly walked out there. And they, I didn't have any, they weren't
interested in- in real confrontation. They just- they just wanted to be loud, so I just ignored ‘em.
Got on a plane and flew home.
(1:22:40)
Interviewer: Alright and so when do you actually get back home? It’s now November,
December?
It had to be- it had to be in November.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I actually felt a commitment because I had been given the drop to go home and farm. I- I
got home and the next day I was on a tractor. I and that's one of my bigger regrets is that I didn't
take time to decompress, you know that's a matter of a week earlier I'd been in the jungle
carrying a rifle and shooting at people.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And I didn't come home and take the time to decompress because I felt they gave me this drop,
it's my responsibility to do what I said I was gonna do. So, I went home, and I farmed.
�(1:23:30)
Interviewer: Okay and so now what was the readjustment process like for you then?
It was a- it was a struggle. I was a different individual and to try and come home, and I was very
devoted to my family and my wife, but I didn't know how to do that. And she didn't know how to
react to me either and it was- it was hard. It was- it was a tough experience for us to- to try and
live through that being two totally different people, because now she was a mother and I hadn't
been there for that process and I was a just a totally different… the pictures look like ten years
difference and so..
Interviewer: And so how did you deal with that or sort things out?
(1:24:25)
Kept it inside. Tried to do what I thought people wanted to see. It wasn't exactly who I was and
didn't talk about it, and that was the- that was a problem and didn't discover how big of a
problem until years and years later. And didn't really talk a whole lot about it until my first
Ripcord Reunion.
Interviewer: Okay and when was that?
That was the first year it was in Indianapolis.
Interviewer: Okay.
This is my fourth, so we were two years at Myrtle Beach and then two years before that in
Indianapolis.
Interviewer: Okay so 2011 was the…
Yeah.
Interviewer: Alright and did you manage to stay married all that time?
Interesting that, now we're gonna get kind of personal.
�Interviewer: Well if, this is you can talk about it or not.
I will.
(1:25:26)
Interviewer: That’s…
I will- I will. There’s no holds barred here. My wife and I were married for thirty years and it just
through the process of the war and whatnot and a lot of other issues, she said that she wanted a
divorce. And we went to counseling and whatnot and the counselor began to drag out, the
psychologist, began to drag out some of this Vietnam stuff. He sensed that that was part of it, and
he started part of that. And Laura began to hear some things that she had never heard before. And
but anyway she filed for divorce and we got divorced in 1998. And she, I- I didn't want it and she
called me the day the divorce was final and said, “Paul, I think I made a mistake.” And my
comment to that was, “no shit.” But- but I said, “you got what you wanted,” so I walked away.
And it was about, well 1999 December 23rd we got remarried and have been together and happy
ever since.
(1:26:55)
Interviewer: And so now after that- that was kind of a product of all of that, the counseling,
were you starting to get some counseling or some support by this time?
Not a lot at that point in time. I- I became, because she started asking more questions then. And
so, I did start to open up more, and then along came a job change and- and some other things
went on and we moved from Iowa to Illinois. And eventually came in contact with Craig Van
Hout and- and talked to me some and then he talked about there was an Illinois group that they
were getting together, for just the guys from Illinois are gonna have lunch. And it was relatively
close by, half an hour. Apprehensive about going to that and whatever but Laura finally prodded
�me into doing that and we did and met some guys, and we went out laid a wreath at the cemetery
there and whatnot. And got to know the guys; Floyd Alexander, Dale Lane and some of those
guys, George Murphy and they said, “you've got to go to a reunion Paul. You’ve got to.” And
Floyd it was just, it was fascinating because he helped me out back in the, your mind you wonder
whether or not you remember the things that really happen. And so, I was talking with Floyd
about April 1st and he said, “April 1st, that was the only time I was in Vietnam that we had to get
resupplied with illumination rounds in the night to fire illumination for you guys.” And so, he
just verified.
(1:28:43)
Interviewer: Yeah.
You know the whole thing. So, anyway then I said “okay,” so I signed up for the reunion in- in
2011 and we went, and it was probably the best thing I ever did. And Laura's comment who was
a speech and English teacher said it was fascinating to sit by the side and just watch you guys,
everybody’s speaking the same language. You don't have to explain what a CA is, or what an LZ
is, or what- what an RPG is, or, you don't have to explain anything. You just talk to one another
because you all speak the same language. And so, it- it just kind of grew from there and- and she
still thinks I've got PTSD which yeah, I probably do. [unintelligible]
Interviewer: Yeah, so, it’s the sort of thing where different people deal with it different
ways. You actually did what an awful lot of the World War II and Korea guys did, and that
is you- you're carrying the baggage with you and you just kind of put it away. And it does
affect your behavior and how you interact with people in certain ways and that sort of
stuff. So, likely yeah if you go to the psychologist, they would diagnose that, but I'm not a
�psychologist so I'm just a historian but I’ve seen a lot of that. But you know, but I mean
that’s what you were always expected to do. Was just suck it up…
(1:30:10)
That’s what my dad did.
Interviewer: And go forward and sometimes that works and sometimes if you're able to
talk about, you work it through, you get control of it, and it doesn't rule you in the same
way. And clearly your relationship with your wife has changed because of it, so that may
help and certainly connecting with the guys who were there can be tremendously helpful.
And in the meantime, what it's done is it's enabled you to sort out your story well enough
that you've done a very good job of telling it today.
Thank you.
Interviewer: So, I’d like to thank you for coming and sharing.
Thank you.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_HansmannP1891V
Title
A name given to the resource
Hansmann, Paul (Interview transcript and video), 2014
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-10-31
Description
An account of the resource
Paul Hansmann was born in Cincinnati, Ohio on August 28, 1948. Hansmann was drafted in 1969 and underwent raining at Fort Bragg, Fort McClellan, Fort Benning, and Fort Polk. He was then selected for NCO school where he trained according to the war in Vietnam. He was then deployed to Camp Evans in Vietnam with the B Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. He conducted Search and Destroy missions and was chosen to be on a battalion Killer Team in the mountains around Ripcord AO before the assault of the firebase. He was later stationed at Firebase Kathryn before recieving an early-out to go home and help his father in law farm in Iowa.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Hansmann, Paul N.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
eng