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Al Weener interviewed by Ken Kutzel
June 2, 2018
KK: And it's on. This is Ken Kutzel, and I am here today with Al Weener at the Old Schoolhouse in
Douglas, Michigan. Today is June 2nd, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories
of Summer project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the
Humanities Common Heritage Program. So I'll thank you for talking with me today.
AL: I'm glad to be here.
KK: I’m interested to learn more about your family history and your experiences od summer in the
Saugatuck-Douglas area. Can you please tell me your full name and spell it?
AL: Allen, A L L E N, Jay, J A Y. Weener W E E N E R.
KK: OK. And you don't use any accents or anything.
No. No umlauts. You know, none of that.
KK: Tell me about where you grew up.
AL: I was I was born in Holland, Michigan, and Saugatuck was the place to go if you wanted to. The
first liberal area south of Holland. My Uncle Harry used to come down here deer hunting, which was
actually he just came down here to drink. He was a well-known businessman in Holland. His last
name was Plugamars. He owned many of, you know, quite a few buildings downtown.
AL: But anyway, Saugatuck, when I was finishing high school, I came to Saugatuck and I worked on a
fishing trawler with the Peetle brothers on a boat called the Chambers Brothers. Peetles also were
fishermen.
KK: And that's P E E L right?
AL: Yeah, right.Right. Some of them, they're still around. And so that was my introduction. Catching
alewives. Which brings back memories to some for sale, I think they went to Japan. Then after high
school, there's some cloudiness in my memory, but I was I helped build the stage and put on the pop
pop festivals and working for SRC as a temporary job. So that brings, you know, some of that.
KK: There was at Pottawattamie Beach, right?
AL: Right, yeah. And I was actually backstage during the kerfuffle, which there were. That's another
history. Part of, you know, part of Saugatuck. Let's see. What would you like to know?
KK: Well, you talk about if you want.
AL: Oh, okay.
�KK: Talk about that if you... If you want to talk about the... Well, the pop festival, I would have asked
you about it anyway.
AL: Oh, okay. Well, I was backstage. We helped build the stage. I was just 19 years old. And or 18, I
forget. And I was hanging around this, The Frost, which was... I think he was .... And the MC5 were
there and B.B. King, not B.B. King, Muddy Waters, Arthur Brown, Alice Cooper. MC5, that sort of
scene. You know the bunch.
KK: They're all in the poster.
AL: Yeah. Mama Lee Thorton never showed, and there was a big rush toward the stage, And I guess I
missed all the excitement. I mean, I was in the middle of it, but everything around the edges? Didn't
see it a thing.
KK: Yeah, they did that two years, right?
AL: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
KK: Okay, what are some of the most vivid memories from your childhood.
AL: Saugatuck? I had…
KK: Well, either, either place.
AL: Oh, I don't know. Let's see. Well, my dad always took us swimming in the area. So we're were, I
was kind of always around Lake Michigan. In fact, I've pretty much lived within 10 miles of the
lakeshore my entire life, so. Lake Michigan beaches.
KK: OK, tell me more about your family and your family history.
AL: My grandfather, Frank Weener, owned gas stations in Holland at one time and an oil company.
And on the north side. And, his house actually was moved from Ottawa Beach. His house on Van
Dyke Street, which is now gone, was a root beer stand that they moved from Ottawa Beach. He lived
there quite a long time.
KK: Oh, really?
AL: And my dad, their family home was right where the North Side Russel's is now. So that's where
they grew up on River Avenue.
KK: Oh, OK.
5:09
KK: Why did you first come to Saugatuck-Douglas? And of course, you mention, you know, a little bit
about it. But what made you come here?
�AL: Oh, I just thought it was an interesting little fishing town. And then by getting my feet wet, as it
were, out in the lake, learning, working with the trawlers for a while, then playing music with with the
locals. We had a band way back then with Pete Hungerford and many... Jack Wulkan. Dave Rafinauld
on Leo.... these guys are all dead. But I'm not.
KK: You're not.
AL: Jack is still living in Kalamazoo.
KK: Did you guys play in, like, the local bar?
AL: Oh, yeah. We played the Sand Bar and the Butler Blue Temple Woodshed Boathouse. Which bar
am I missing? That's just about all of them. [Laughs].
KK: Some of them are gone.
AL: Yeah. Woodshed's gone and Blue Tempo's gone.
KK: Well, you know, as long as you brought it up and, you know, would you tell me what you can
about the Blue Tempo?
AL: Well, we just were looking for any place to play and we were playing a lot of original music.
And Toad was had no problem with that. Som we would set up.
KK: And Toad was the owner?
AL: Yeah, Toad was the owner.
KK: Yeah.
AL: Toad Davis.
KK: Yeah, Davis.
AL: Yeah. And it was a long stairway down and we'd set up. We played there a couple times. It was
we didn't get a big crowd but a local crowd. I can remember some fathers weren't real happy that
their teenage daughters were at the Blue Tempo.
KK: You were. Were you playing more to the straight crowd or the gay crowd or straight?
AL: Oh, just the locals.
KK: Oh, yeah. Yeah, because. We know that that you know. That was a gay bar.
�AL: That was a gay is a gay bar at certain times. The notables played there. You know, great jazz
greats played. Yeah.
KK: So, who do you know of that that was-?
AL: Well, it seems like Dizzy Gillespie played there. I'm not sure. These are all hearsay because I never
talked to Toad about it. But, uh, you know that was a it was a fabulous little club. And I hope that
you've talked to Bill Steininger, because he could give you more.
KK: No, we haven't, but I will write that name down. So, tell the story, because I know you were
instrumental in acquiring a sign.
AL: Oh, yeah. And it caught on fire.
KK: Yes. I want to tell what you know about that.
AL: Well, it was a sad day when any institution catches on fire. And I don't remember how. I've just
hanging around, drove up and and saw that that roof had sagged and Toad was standing out front.
And we're both gonna go. Go. Boy, this is pretty rough. And I can't imagine what he felt like. But the
roof had sagged and it was still the fire was out. And I suppose there is yellow tape around it. But I
just asked him if I could have the sign and he said, I don't care. or something to that effect. So, I just
walked out on the roof and pulled it off with a hammer.
KK: OK.
AL: Far as I can remember.
KK: So, it was up on the roof.
AL: Yeah, it was on a roof. Yeah. And the roof had sagged down due to the fire. So it was dangerous.
But who cares?
KK: But we know you so. Oh, let's see. Can you share any particular memories about, you know, your
time here about living here and when, you know, things are moments that are especially memorable
to you?
AL: Oh, I was thinking of Sally Erlandson, who just passed away, and I believe she was instrumental in
having the gazebo built along the water Wicks Park and. And we used to play there. And when it was
actually when it was just. Instructed, we had an informal bunch of locals and we we painted it in just
to help out.
KK: Good!
AL: So, Sally was always interested in her and what we were doing.
�KK: Can you tell me about your friend Fred? Because I know he was sort of involved in the music
world here.
AL: Oh, Fred Glazier.
KK: Yeah.
AL: Oh, and he was.
KK: What can you tell me about Fred?
AL: Well, he was a freelance writer and he grew up next door to in Chicago area somewhere. Then he
was friends with a lot of the oh, man.
10:07
AL: This is this is a brain’s... Mike Bloomfield. So, we did an oral history of Mike Bloomfield. One of
his last works. And he'd collect art from.
KK: Where was it?
AL: I don't know, Chicago very well. But they had the area that everyone was a grand sort of
fleamarket. And anyway, he had a lot of art that was on the floors of his his closets kind of in disarray.
And before he passed away, I took it and I tried to sort it out and flatten it. And then. So I had a
bunch of his art. Anyway, he he was a he wrote for the commercial record as a stringer, I believe, an
elegant paper.
KK: Didn't he have a little magazine?
AL: I think he may have yeah. Yeah. I think all about music in the area. Oh, he may have tried and he
tried just about everything I've seen and everything, but working for a living. I don't recommend it at
all. Manual labor doesn't suit you.
KK: Well, that's true. Oh, were there any places or institutions that you know, are really important to
you here in Saugatuck-Douglas?
AL: Well, we used to play at Jocko's and Jack Wilkins still being a friend of mine. We'd kind of camp
out in the back yard and throw parties there.
KK: Where was Jocko's?
AL: It is now east of the Dune scooter rides on the rise of the hill. It was a Jocko Wilkin, Jack's father,
who owned that. So, yeah, he had a Lake Road Hotel Motel.
KK: Were those inside the cabin?
�AL: Yeah, those little cabins behind you.
KK: Oh, okay, yeah.
AL: Yeah. And then the restaurant was in front.
KK: Yeah.
AL: Yeah, I think they did a quick shot in the Road to Perdition back there.
KK: Yeah, that. OK. Any special places you like to eat in the past during that period?
AL: Oh, I was somewhat unkind to the local restauranteurs.
KK: How so?
AL: No I won't go into that. Oh, I mean, The Douglas Dinette was a popular spot. And then The
Redwood which is now... Donna Peel passed away.
KK: Yeah.
AL: The Ways- The Waypoint. That was the Redwood. Yeah. Way back then. Oh, I don't know. Let's
see The Elbow Room, which is now The Southerner.
KK: Yeah, The Southerner.
AL: Yeah. Yeah. I just think you know The Southerner. That was a great spot. And The Butler. My dad
always loved to go to The Butler when we're having a family get together.
KK: You never had any contact, really, with the School of Art, did you?
AL: Oh, yeah.
KK: Oh, you did? Tell me about that.
AL: Yeah, I worked there. Then my old girlfriend way back was a model out there and. And so I
actually have the stove. Well, I did a lot of work out there and I played out there for fundraiser's
many times. And actually before I gained my my present stature, I did that. [Laughs Loudly].
AL: She and I both did modeling out there.
KK: Yeah.
AL: And I met a lot of people on there and let Sally… Oh, they had The Pumphouse for many years.
KK: What were their names?
�AL: They lived in The Pumphouse. Which is now The Pumphouse. The Pumphouse Museum. Sally. I
forgot the last name. And there was a cottage.
KK: And it was…
AL: Yeah, that's how I got involved out there.
KK: Oh, OK.
AL: In part. So, let's see. I remembered strip volleyball games and stuff like that where I was wearing
a pair of shorts and some women would be festooned in scarves and other extraneous... [Both
Laugh] They had they knew the game.
KK: Let's see what else we have here.
AL: Shorey. Sally Shorey.
KK: Sally Shorey. Okay.
AL: Because I was living across in Saugatuck and helped remodel The Pumphouse. Way, way back.
15:00
KK: Yeah. And now, you know, you talked about you did work here and you did. What actually do
you do for work?
AL: Some people say not much, but back then… Well, I was a Mason tender. I was project supervisor,
which means that when they were out of town, I would try to direct traffic. So we toured the slate
roof off, patched that.
KK: That's at the at the Pumphouse.
AL: Yeah, The Pumphouse, which I think I gave you a few slates.
KK: Yeah.
AL: Yeah. Which I, yeah, fortunately still had a couple laying around. What were you asking me? Oh
the Pumphouse. Well, what I did for a living?
KK: What you did andAL: Yeah. Well I was. I was. Well, I painted a bunch of them for quite a while down here, but then
transitioned more into construction.
�KK: And you were involved a lot in New Richmond, weren't you?
AL: Oh, yeah. I bought The New Richmond Hotel from a friend of mine. He says, "Careful what you
wish for."
AL: I said, "You know, if I owned it, I would do this and that."
AL: And he said, "Well, I'll sell it to you on a land contract." And then so I did remodel that or we did
that for quite a few years. And then it caught on fire. Top floor burned out. Fixed that. And then used
it as a vacation rental some years successfully, some years less so. And that was the design syrett for
the park and raised a little bit of money. And I was on the fundraising committee for the bridge.
KK: Why don't you explain exactly what that meant? I mean, what were they doing with the bridge?
AL: Oh, at the time Kevin Ricoh was the Parks and Recreation Director for the Allegan County. They,
along with the road commission, Bill Nelson was the head of the road commission at the time,
were able to secure a federal grant to rebuild the bridge. Subject to not using the caveat was to not
have a use for vehicle traffic and to rebuild it being the oldest swing bridge in its act, in its original
location. So that bridge is capable of being turned with the crank. I think they spent $800,000
building that. That spans the Kalamazoo Kalamazoo River where New Richmond was, is.
KK: New Richmond is, was. Yeah. It was more of a town at one point, wasn't it?
AL: Oh, yeah. The train used to stop there five times a day. OK. And from what I understand, it was
an Indian trading post prior to that in the 1830s. There are hotels which I had the last, the last
structure. A lot of them burned down at the Great Fire, but... The mail used to come to New
Richmond. Go by stagecoach to Saugatuck and Holland, sometimes by water, but stagecoach to
Holland. And I had relatives living in the East Saugatuck. So, they may have come through Ellis Island
and gotten off the train in New Richmond. And, you know, by ox cart or snail... By snail. [Both laugh]
By snail or tortoise. Yeah. Sledge lived in East Saugatuck.
KK: What... Talk about downtown Saugatuck and or downtown Douglas back, you know, in in like the
70s, 60s, 70s. What do you remember about them?
AL: Well, The Over Ice Lumber was still in Douglas as well as there was a hardware store. It was
struggling at the time. My girlfriend and I painted The Dutcher Lodge way, way back when it was still
a Masonic Hall upstairs.
KK: And was it still being used as a hall?
AL: Yeah, it was kind of the end of the end of its tenure as a hall .And I remember there were huge
bees nests and even more warm weather came that would drip honey through the floor.
KK: I've been up there.
AL: Yeah?
�KK: Yeah, I did. There's still a stage up there.
20:01
AL: Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's still a stage. I don't know what they've done to it, but I remember
working for Virgil Lloyd was one of the one of the old timers who wanted it was part of the lodge.
Burin Van Osterberg another. He lived on the other side of the water on the other side of the river.
And his wife was Chuck Glummer's sister, she was crazy as a loon. [Chuckles] She was
institutionalized.
KK: Oh, really?
AL: He would take her out of the home, drive around on a regular basis. Her hair was never combed
and she never talked at all. Chuck Glummer was was... lived in Ganges, had the tractor repair.
KK: Oh.
AL: Which is that... Oh, there's the plumber house there.
KK: Yeah. Is it across the street from it?
AL: Right.
KK: Yeah.
AL: Yeah. OK. Yeah.Yeah. I've forgotten his wife's name. Chuck was lived in Ganges Township. And
they, they had a hedge your business and repaired crackers. I remember going in there and asking,
"What can I get for, you know, the tune up my engine for ten bucks?"
AL: And the mechanic opened the hood, looked at the engine, closed the hood and said, "That'll be
ten dollars."
KK: Oh, it sounds like it, you know.
AL: Yeah. You stay at the Texaco station where where they would carry a pistol when they're
pumping gas.
KK: Really?
AL: Yeah, the Brown, Browns owned, had that old, Al Brown. Jim Brown. There was Joe Brown. And
they were either township or county one with Joe Browns, County cop and, you know, nice.
KK: Was it right? Was that the one that was downtown or down near Bluestar-
�AL: By Bluestar. Now, it's a real estate.
KK: Yeah. Lighthouse, I think, Reality.
AL: Yeah. That was a Texaco Station. I know there was one over there. And, Al Brown was there, you
know, from the south. But very you know, once you get to know them well, you go in there and play
guitar for a couple of minutes at the gas station. I'm no guitar player, but enough to break the ice.
KK: Well, and then when you came down here, you spent more time in Saugatuck than in Douglas?
Or did it matter?
AL: Didn't matter. There were just one little town.
KK: Do you have any memory of the Greeson School of Art at the Footy of Center Street? There's a
little art school there.
AL: Down here?
KK: It was just in one building. Yeah.
AL: Oh, no.
KK: Yeah. I always ask that question because not too many people remember it.
AL: No, I remember Oxbow. Yeah. There was no I'm not aware of that one.
KK: Did you ever come down? You know, it would be would be up from... Yeah. Down from Holland
on the wintertime or what was it something guys in all that all year or was it just mostly summer?
AL: Oh well I would come down pretty much any time. Mostly summer jobs.
Oh, okay.
AL: But when we were painting houses we used to put in as a single ad in The Commercial Record
with the phone number. Not even a phone number. I mean, just an address. Post office box. And we
were living in New Richmond at the time, so I had a post office box in New Richmond. Somebody
would write me a letter, send it via post. I would get a letter from them, send a letter back. You know,
this is all is very slow. And then we would quite often get a painting job that way.
I didn't paint forever, but it seemed like it. Yeah.
KK: So that would be about what time? The 60s?
AL: Yeah, and early 70s.
KK: Early 70s.
�AL: Yeah.
KK: So, you were already living out in New Richmond.
AL: Yeah. And my girlfriend and I also live right downtown Saugatuck in the old Masonic Hall up
above in which is now kind of an atrium building the upper floors. Like upstairs from the- on Butler
Street from where Butler Pantry was. Yeah, right. Hey there. I think the Leland building was. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I did a bunch of work on the Leland building with the first- the initial remodel, my cousin
and I tore the north side of the building up and removed the brick and put beams in for windows
and also build a back stairway in there.
25:08
AL: Put bay windows on the front, which are now gone. Let's see, yeah, I hadn't thought of that for a
while. Yeah. So, what else you got? What what?
KK: You know, Iet's talk...
AL: Nice list.
KK: Well, this is for all kinds of different things, you know, here. This is one for your shenanigans.
How would you describe Saugatuck-Douglas, to somebody who had never been here before?
AL: When I first came, it was a little fishing town. You can still buy smoked fish in Saugatuck. You can
get smoked Chubb's. The Hungerford's had a boathouse on the river, which is no, you know, a
glorified cottage. They lived up on the hill. It was a very relaxed little town, very small.
KK: OK. And with the summer season was about how long?
AL: Three months. Yeah. You can set your watch by it.
KK: Yeah. In the summer, where was your favorite place to go?
AL: Well, I spent a lot of time on the sandbar or just houses. We played a big party at Tower Marine
and that's why I brought up Bill Dillerard, because the tower was still up at that point. And, I
remember there is a big house and it had a grand piano in it, and we threw a big party or they threw
a big party up there. And that may have may be because they were going to tear down the tower or
something like that. You'd have to ask Bill. But that's why Tower Marinas....
KK: Yeah.
AL: -has the name.
KK: That name.
AL: And of course, Tower Marine had a big boat shed and built river queens there.
�KK: What was your impression of the law enforcement in Saugatuck?
AL: Oh, I remember Lyle Jones. He was a chief of police who was pretty relaxed guy. Not at all what
we have today. We did.
KK: Right.
AL: We were we wrote songs about the locals. So, we do have... There was a song written with Lyle
Jones named in it.
KK: Oh, really?
AL: Yeah. Those are- "Called the Corner" Jack Wilken, I bet has a copy of it. Wow. And Dick Hoffman
was the mayor for a while. He was a cool guy. And Greg Hoffman, his brother, always rode a bike and
delivered papers. Another local.
KK: Do the Hollanders come down here a lot?
AL: To drink.
KK: Yeah, but did they admit it?
AL: Well, if they were, Saugatuck was the first place... Ottawa County was pretty much dry. So, the
Saugatuck was some place you could get away.
KK: You know, there were the. There was that racetrack here.
AL: Oh, yes.
KK: At the time. Well, what can you tell me about that?
AL: I worked for Al Masters, who owned Holiday Hill. Al and Fran and he and partner put on the jazz
festival there. And I worked for them for at least 10 years off and on. And I noticed in his basement
he had a bunch on reel-to-reel tapes. And after pestering him for a while, I was able to get those
tapes of the Jazz Festival 1961. And I brought him to a friend of mine in Grand Rapids who owned a
recording studio. And they were transferred into a digital medium. And they're probably copies in
this building somewhere.
KK: If I remember correctly, we do have them.
AL: I hope so.
KK: Mike Sweeney has been very, very involved.
AL: So, yeah, I gave them to Mike.
�KK: Yeah.
AL: And so, I had those transferred and that had Duke Ellington, Dave Brubeck and many other
interesting Hollywood or Las Vegas senior stuff. Yeah. Hilarious. Four hours at least. And I remember
he lost a lot of money and recorded it had it had A West Michigan sound out of Muskegon recorded
for him, and he had no rights to do that. And so that's why they sat in his basement, because RCA or
the parent companies who had the recording rights for these artists wouldn't let him release or do
anything with the with the sound recording.
30:08
KK: Oh, that's interesting. Do you know, when they hit the rock festivals there. Talk to me or about
what was it like with all those people coming into town? As I've heard stories about it. Do you have
stories about it?
AL: I was backstage the whole time, so. Or right in the in the festival itself. I remember we were... not
inebriated, but my memories are somewhat, hazy. [Both chuckle] I was never in town because I was
right in the middle of middle of the action. Because I know there are stories about the traffic.
KK: And, yeah, them literally shutting the town down because nobody can get in or out.
AL: Yeah. I just... Well, being in the middle of it, I didn't need to go anywhere.
KK: That's okay.
AL: We'd go swimming at Pottawattamie Beach was like 50 cents. They had a big water slide or a
diving platform, which you couldn't do anymore.
KK: You know, you're involved in playing music. Now, why don't you talk about that?
AL: Oh, well, I'm not doing a whole lot, but occasionally I have the… I can play at Marrows in
Saugatuck. Hopefully that'll kick in and in June. Otherwise, we had a band called Planet Seven at the
time when we were still in our teens and. Yeah, well, that was with local local guys, some of which are
not no longer with us. Leo Vischer was the bass player for a little on. Drank himself to death. There
was other ones. Chuck Daly was another local. We also had a country band. Tom Edgecomb was
another notable, notable guitar player and songwriter.
AL: His father was Morgan Edgecomb, which the fireboat is named after, after Morgan. He was an
interesting guy who worked on larger vessels and was First Mate for Evel Knievel for a long time.
KK: Oh, was he?
AL: As well as... You know, He didn't talk about it either. He didn't talk about his clientele because
they, you know…. I think Tom said that he worked for the Kennedys. And, you know, and whoever
they also Tom is the only guy that I knew my age was. He had been in Cuba with his dad.
�KK: That's Tom Edgecomb.
AL: Yeah. He passed away 15 years ago.
KK: Wait, there was something I wanted to ask you. Tell us about your work with the fish.
AL: Oh, you know, the sturgeon. Yeah, we're we have an on again off again nonprofit organization
and we partner with we do a little bit to help to assist Fisheries and Wildlife DNR and then the Gun
Lake Tribe, the Gun Lake Tribe is now taken up most of the heavy lifting due to budget cuts,
governmental budget cuts. But the Kalamazoo River Sturgeon for Tomorrow is is we're trying to keep
the sturgeon in Kalamazoo River by using native stock. So there is a small fishing fish hatchery. They
called it streamside rearing facility on the north side of New Richmond at the county park. It's a
seasonal small trailer funded by Fisheries and Wildlife. Federal money.
KK: And so, what do what are they actually do there?
AL: They catch native stock in the Kalamazoo River, rear them to a size in a few months sometime.
They start with eggs or spawn. And by the time they let them go, they could be five to seven inches
long, and then they're able to escape predators. But a small and a juvenile sturgeon is covered with
kind of spiny, sharp plates and fins. So, once they get that big, they have a better chance of making
it. OK.
35:01
AL: And the largest sturgeon in the last couple decades, caught and released in the Kalamazoo, from
the Kalamazoo, was 6'9".
KK: Oh.
AL: And weighed in in excess of 200lbs.
KK: Wow, that's a big fish.
AL: A big fish. They've been here forever.
KK: Are there more and more of them now?
AL: They're still a remnant population in with a little help from or not doing any damage to the
habitat, I think they'll be here for a long time.
KK: Well, that's good.
AL: There's more, more habitat. Habitat enhancement funded by the Gun Lake Tribe and the DNR
just below the dam. The Allegan Dam on the Kalamazoo.
�KK: What are some of your hopes for the future, for, you know, for the area? What would you like to
see happen?
AL: Oh, I would like to see the small-town atmosphere. I'm not a Luddite, but I do appreciate good
architecture. So, Saugatuck could keep its quaint look by not building a lot of storage facilities to
store people's junk, which they should donate to charity and or, you know, just tacky architecture
and fast-food joints.
KK: That’s interesting. You know. What would you consider some of the nicer buildings?
AL: Oh, well. That the old.... let's see... Well, the let's see, the Episcopal Church is a really nice
building. Let's see, and some of the buildings downtown that the sandbars, a nice unrestored
building for the most part. Killwins, that's a pretty cool building. And some of the buildings along on
Butler Street were moved from Singapore. So, and I've worked for some houses in homes, private
homes that were moved up the ice from Singapore. So, back when we had real winters.
KK: Yeah, I know.
AL: Oh, that was real common.
KK: I know.
AL: Yeah. For months, kids pull them, pull them up with oxen or whatever.
KK: Yeah. Yeah. Assuming that somebody 50 years from now is going to be listening to this tape,
what do you want to say to him? Or her?
AL: To him or her, life is short. Anybody that will be there. Life was short, don't make the same
mistakes we did. Make some new ones. Be tolerant.
KK: OK. Anything else you want to add?
AL: No, just. It's… it's a pleasure that it's nice that we have a historical society.
KK: Okay. We will… [Recording ends in middle of sentence].
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
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1910s-2010s
Source
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Various
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
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Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
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Text
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English
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2018
Oral History
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-07_SD-WeenerA_2018-06-02
Creator
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Weener, Al
Date
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2018-06-02
Title
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Al Weener (audio interview and transcript) 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Al Weener describes his connections to West Michigan as well as his time as a fisherman in Saugatuck
Contributor
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Kutzel, Ken (interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Fishing
Fishermen
Gay bars
Allegan County (Mich.)
Oral history
Audio recordings
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Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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Text
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3669e2c00b9e62d5f2e5bf4f55fcd550.mp3
4a714357b91d0b257ed2237b543de74f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/89d21ff5f41b6cf87fb446a554decd1d.pdf
d1b327e4d499648914d89b2f7d5eb3c7
PDF Text
Text
Cynthia Sorenson interviewed by Gina Asman and Ken Kutzel
July 21, 2018
GA: Now what you’re doing is working.
Ken: Alright, we're headed down, just hit the record.
Okay we'll do that. Thank you very much, Ken.
Ken: You’re welcome.
GA: As they leave… What do I have in my mouth? I don’t know. So, we'll get started alright.I
got some questions here that I supposed to be asking you. This is Gina Asman and I'm here today
with Cynthia Sorenson, my friend, and we are downstairs in the Old Schoolhouse in the place
where Cynthia is very very comfortable. Today is July 21, 2018. We are in Douglas, Michigan.
and this oral history is being collected as a part of The Stories of Summer project which is
supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common
Herritage program. That’s quite the name. Thank you for coming today and taking the time to
talk with me. I know I kinda twisted your arm to do this tonight. This is not your favorite thing I
know I'm gonna ask you some different questions I hope because before I think they talked about
the, the robbery at the bank was in that. Weren’t you interviewed as far as that was concerned?
Well, the second time, yeah. Pat Devenhost and I were interviewed.
GA: Okay, but what was the first time about then?
CS: My sister and myself.
GA: Okay the two of you, so you and Marge were interviewed now. Okay. Well anyway, I
wanna learn more about your family history and your experiences that you've had here in the
Saugatuck-Douglas area and I have to ask you this can you please tell me your full name and
spell it, even though I know how.
CS: Cynthia Anne Petertyl Sorensen.
GA: Now, that is an interesting name. Spell it for me, please?
All of it?
�GA: The whole thing, especially the Peter, that’s where I get the Peter.
CS: C Y N T H I A A N N E P E T E R T Y L S O R E N S E N
GA: I bet Sorenson is often misspelled, isn’t it?
CS: Yes.
GA: And that's not very nice because it's a good Scandinavian, I think.
CS: I think it's Danish.
GA: Oh, Danish! Okay I’m sorry I was wrong there. Now, tell me about the Peter, because I’ve
heard.
CS: Petertyl.
GA: I know but I've heard him calling you Peter or Pete. I guess it’s Pete.
CS: It’s a nickname. A family name.
GA: Tell me about that.
CS: Oh, my grandmother my mother's mother's maiden name was Petertyl.
GA: Your mother's mother, okay.
CS: My grandmother. It’s Bohemian.
GA: Oh, its Bohemian? Now, how did Bohemian and Danish get together
CS: I don't know.
GA: They just did.
CS: They met in Chicago, my mother did. They met in Chicago. Now, what else did you need?
GA: Well I just think it's such an interesting name and I heard your niece, Joan, say…
�CS: No, my cousin.
GA: Your cousin, that’s right. She said, “Pete was there” And I said, “Pete? Who’s Pete?” “Oh,
you know, Pete.” So, I thought, oh, and that’s why I had to ask you.
CS: My family nickname and then of course when I worked in the restaurant with my aunt, she
would call me Pete. The customer's would call me Pete.
GA: Well, tell me about that restaurant. I know it's called The Hollyhock, right?
CS: The Hollyhock House.
GA: The Hollyhock House. Tell me about that.
CS: My aunt had that for many many years. she it was the best restaurant in town.
GA: Your aunt's name was?
CS: Emily Leon.
GA: Ellie Leon
CS: Emily. Emily Leon.
GA: And then the building is still there, isn't it?
CS: No, Marrows took it over and extended their restaurant.
GA: But, it is where Marrows was, correct?
CS: Well, Marrows was on the corner.
GA: The corner, right.
CS: And they took the property in between the lot and my aunt’s house.
GA: Oh.
CS: So, there’s actually three lots there.
GA: See, I was incorrect because I thought that the back part of the side part that runs along the
road there was The Hollyhock House.
�CS: It was facing Water Street.
GA: Water Street, yes. Because it kind of bends in there, doesn’t it?
CS: Yeah.
GA: How long did you work there?
CS: I started when I was fourteen.
GA: Oh my word.
CS: Helping in the kitchen. I worked there for twenty years.
GA: So all through high school and so on, then.
CS: Yes.
GA: And I’m sure that probably during the summertime you were really, really busy, weren’t
you?
CS: Very busy. There would be lines of people waiting to get in.
GA: Well, I can remember hearing about it. I don’t ever remember eating at it but I can
remember hearing people talk about it, that it was a very good place to eat, and it was very…
What should I say? A neat place to go, a different place to go, not your typical hamburger or
whatever.
CS: It was all homemade food, homemade cooking.
5:08
GA: What was your favorite?
CS: Well, probably her vegetable soup. [Chuckles]
GA: Her vegetable soup. Did they have other kinds of soup?
CS: Oh, yeah. She made it all.
GA: Was there different soup on different days?
�CS: She made all sorts of kinds of soups. I don’t remember if it was one a day or how she did it,
but all of her soups were good.
GA: But vegetable soup was your favorite?
CS: Yeah.
GA: What did they have for dessert? I love dessert.
CS: Pies. All sorts of pies: Lemon meringue, butterscotch, and chocolate, coconut cream…
GA: So, a lot of cream pies, then?
CS: Oh, yeah.
GA: And why did she call it The Hollyhock House?
CS: She liked hollyhocks, and there were hollyhocks in the vacant lot next door.
GA: Ah… and these were probably the old-fashioned ones, the singles.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Did you ever take them apart as a little girl?
CS: Oh, yeah.
GA: Make dolls?
CS: Make dolls, yes.
GA: I did that too. So, vegetable soup, lots of pies.
CS: Lemon meringue.
GA: Lemon meringue, was your favorite lemon meringue?
CS: Yep. And she made a lot of sweet rolls. Her cinnamon rolls were the best. Everyone liked
her cinnamon rolls.
GA: So, she was probably open for breakfast then?
CS: Oh, yeah.
�GA: What time did you have to go to work?
CS: I can’t… let’s see. I think she opened at 8:00. She started out serving dinners and decided it
was easier to do breakfast because there wasn’t a lot of waste. Eggs just kept, you know. Then,
she decided that breakfast was too hard because everyone wants it to be perfect. People like their
eggs a certain way.
GA: Scrambled, over-easy.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Oh, this is too hard!
CS: So, she went back to dinners.
GA: Oh, really?
CS: And, that’s when there were line ups because the pavilion was there then.
GA: Right across the street, really.
CS: Mhm. And, she went back to breakfast and lunch. So, I was a waitress. I didn’t do any of the
cooking.
GA: Well, that’s more fun. You didn’t have to clean up, either, doing dishes?
CS: No, I didn’t have to do the dishes. There were high school girls that came in and did the
dishes.
GA: What was the décor like inside? When you remember, what did it look like? I imagine it
being sort of light, bright colors and so on?
CS: Yeah. She used a lot of yellow.
GA: A lot of yellow, okay.
CS: Just all kind of. It was kind of open. There was a porch, a glassed in porch. The windows
could be open. It was very cheerful.
GA: And I assume there were tables out on the porch? Were you serving?
�CS: Yeah, we served tables on the porch. In the regular restaurant, she had vases of flowers on
every table.
GA: Fresh flowers, I’m sure.
CS: Yeah. She had a big flower garden in the back because she liked to garden.
GA: So, these flowers probably came right from her garden.
Yeah.
GA: Neat.
CS: I don’t remember… Well, I was there when the pavilion burned.
GA: You remember that, then?
CS: We were open.
GA: Because that was early May, wasn’t it?
CS: May, yes May of 19…60?
GA: May 1960, yes. So you were working that day, then?
CS: Yeah. It happened right around noon hour.
GA: So, it was right across the street from you.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Oh, my word.
CS: You hear the fire whistle. They had a fire whistle at that time. Everyone was running down
between the pavilion and The Crowbar because there was smoke down there. And I said, “Oh,
there’s a boat on fire.” I looked across the street, and there were flames inside the building way
over in the far corner. And, we were full of customers, of course. I said, “Everybody better
leave.” Nobody wanted to leave, they all finished their lunches, paid...
GA: Oh, you’re kidding! Just kind of watched everything?
CS: Yeah.
�GA: Oh my word.
CS: Firetrucks were pulling out of the front.
GA: Well, they had the front row seats.
CS: Yeah. My sister worked at Harris Pie, in the office of Harris Pie then. She and a couple of
her friends came for lunch and they were waiting for a table. And they took their lunch with
them back to the office.
10:10
GA: To go, yeah.
CS: Finally, we got everybody out of the restaurant, and I happened to think to grab the cash
box. We had a cash register, but I thought to grab the drawer and went into the backyard. My
aunt had a dog at the house, so I let him out. Then, I just stood in the back and watched it burn.
GA: Holding the cashbox and keeping the dog company then?
CS: Yes.
GA: Oh my word.
CS: And while, just before we left, this lady from Douglas, Mace Acosta, came. She wanted pie
and coffee. And I said, “Well, you can’t come in, we’re closed.” But she insisted, so I gave her a
pie to take home.
GA: Oh my word!
CS: She wasn’t going to leave.
GA: And she just wanted to come on in, eat her pie and watch the excitement going on across
the street?
CS: Yes, yep. So that’s… My cousin Frank was at Michigan State then, and some of his friends
called and told him what was going on. They came and got his record collection out of the house.
GA: Sure, because he was living at that house then.
CS: Yes.
�GA: The house didn’t burn, did it?
CS: No, but the plane glass window on the front cracked.
GA: On the house?
CS: On the restaurant.
GA: Oh, the restaurant.
CS: Yeah. A couple of the firemen were keeping hoses on the roof of the house, so it didn’t
burn. She also had candles, candles on all of the tables. They melted right over because it got so
hot in there.
GA: Oh my word. And it was probably pretty cool out because it was early in May?
CS: Yeah.
GA: So, it wasn’t 80 degrees or anything.
CS: It was a sunny day, I remember, but… Later after the fire was out, then she opened up and
made sandwiches for the firemen, or whatever they wanted to eat. A friend of hers came and
helped her.
GA: Now, you probably helped too, didn’t you? Or did you have to go and do something else?
CS: I was there, but I don’t remember doing –
GA: Well, you probably helped serve them to the firemen.
CS: Yeah. I don’t remember doing that, but I must have. Of course, I had to hang out with the
dog. [Both laugh]
GA: And you made sure the money was safe, too.
CS: Yeah. My parents were living in Lansing.
GA: At that time?
CS: They were coming over for the weekend and they saw all this smoke in the sky.
GA: They were probably…
�CS: They couldn’t get into town. They weren’t letting anyone into town.
GA: Were you living at that time on Campbell Road?
CS: Yeah.
GA: But your folks were in Lansing, so it was just you and Marge in the house, then?
CS: M-hm.
GA: I didn’t know that! I thought your folks lived there all the time!
CS: No. My dad worked for the State of Michigan, and he worked out of Lansing.
GA: Oh.
CS: They’d come over every weekend.
GA: So, you two girls were just on your own then?
CS: M-hm.
GA: Oh, well, times are…
CS: We were old enough then.
GA: I know, but times are different now. [Laughs] Would you leave your teenagers there, my
word!
CS: Well, Marge wasn’t a teenager, so. She worked at Harris Pie, and I did the restaurant.
GA: Well, now, I know that your house is really, really old. Talk about your house. You said
you lived in that house after you had lived in another house downtown in Saugatuck first.
CS: M-hm.
GA: But this house had already been built on Campbell Road?
CS: Oh, yeah.
GA: But, it’s not a farmhouse. It’s too fancy to be a farmhouse.
CS: Oh, it isn’t fancy.
�GA: Oh, I think it is.
CS: It was a farmhouse.
GA: Well, it’s not a typical, plain old, what should I say, bare boned. Well, the inside wasn’t like
a lot of those houses, Victorian houses.
CS: It was plain.
GA: But the outside is very, very elegant, as such. It was on a hill; it looks really nice there.
CS: According to Jim Schmeecan, it was built in 1867 or 8, I can’t remember.
GA: So it’s… my math… It’s 150 years old.
CS: Yeah. It was the only house on that side of Campbell Road when we moved there.
15:03
GA: Oh, really? The only one? Was there ever a barn in there, too?
CS: Oh, yeah, there was a big barn, food storage building, and a chicken coop.
GA: And a chicken coop! And, you didn’t raise chickens for food?
CS: Nope.
GA: But there were probably already fruit trees there.
CS: Oh, yeah, the whole area was a fruit orchard.
GA: Peaches?
CS: All kinds of fruit. Different kinds.
GA: Hmm.
CS: But at that time, we weren’t running the orchard at all. It was just there.
GA: It was just there.
CS: Yeah. It wasn’t taken care of; it wasn’t sprayed or anything like that.
�GA: How old were you when you moved into that house, do you remember? Were you in high
school?
CS: Yeah, I was in high school.
GA: You came from Chicago?
CS: Yeah. Brookfield.
GA: Brookfield, that’s where the zoo is. So, you came up here because your dad had a job in
Saugatuck, right?
CS: No. He quit his job in Chicago because he was tired of commuting through the loop. And,
what he wanted to do was build. He was a builder.
GA: That’s right.
CS: He wanted to build houses up here. We moved here after my sister graduated from Riverside
Brookfield High School, because she was going to go to Western. My dad liked to hunt and fish
so he wanted to be in this area.
GA: So, this was a perfect place for him!
CS: M-hm. We were here… Well, we came here in October of 41. In December, there was Pearl
Harbor.
GA: That’s right.
CS: So, the company he worked for in Chicago wanted him to come back, because they had a
job out in Nebraska building ammunition storage in the fields of Nebraska. So we went out to
Nebraska for, oh, almost a year.
GA: Where abouts in Nebraska?
CS: Sydney, Nebraska.
GA: I don’t know where that is.
CS: It was just a little town like Fennville.
�GA: I’ve never been. Oh, like Fennville, okay! Is it in the middle of Nebraska, or where in
Nebraska?
CS: It’s more in the southwestern parts.
GA: The southwestern parts, okay.
CS: Because I know we took trips to Colorado and Wyoming while we were there.
GA: Oh! So, you were there a little while then?
CS: Yes. Not a full year, but.
GA: Not a full year, okay.
CS: Then we came back here.
GA: But at that time, you did not have the house on Campbell Road, correct?
CS: No.
GA: Okay, so you lived in town.
CS: Yeah. We lived on… first we lived on Lake Street. That house isn’t there anymore. And,
then, we lived up on Mason Street.
GA: Okay.
CS: Then my dad built the house on Hoffman Street.
GA: Oh! And is that house still there?
CS: Yes, yep.
GA: Do you know the address or anything?
CS: I don’t know. I can’t remember enough.
GA: But you’d know what it looks like, right?
CS: Oh, yeah. They’ve changed it.
GA: Oh, okay.
�CS: That was in the 40s, then, by the late 40s. Yeah. I was in high school, so I could just walk to
school, the old school.
GA: The old school. Because I can remember the Saugatuck High School burned in the middle
of the night, didn’t it?
CS: Yeah, there was a thunder storm and they think it was struck by lightning. That was 1950.I
can remember my dad was good friends with Mr. Wah.
GA: Was he the superintendent?
CS: Yeah. I remember where we lived, and I remember the phone ringing in the middle of the
night, and my dad saying, “Oh, we’ve got to go, Saugatuck High School is burning down.” And,
they were talking about where they could hold classes and so on. Could we loan them books, or
just whatever? Because my dad was in Fennville at that time. So that was in 1950.
GA: Yeah. See, I didn’t remember when it was. I remember that the high school was on a hill.
CS: You weren’t born then.
GA: Oh, well, yes I was. [Both laugh]. The high school was up on a hill, but the gym didn’t
burn, did it?
CS: No. It was attached to the high school building, but it didn’t burn.
GA: So, only part.
CS: There was no damage upstairs. Let’s see, there were four classrooms attached to the old
school, red brick, and the gym was to the other side. It wasn’t near the building that burned.
GA: Okay, so it was separate, then, kind of.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Oh, I see. See, I don’t remember that. [Clears throat]. Excuse me. I remember going to
games in the gym and knowing that was not a part of the school that burned then.
CS: No, it didn’t. I don’t even think there was smoke damage in there, but there was in the red
brick part of the school. And, we had to have classes in the Legion Hall now in town.
�20:07
GA: Probably churches or something?
CS: Churches. Let’s see, where else? Well, that’s about all there was. Then the fixed up the gym
and divided it into classrooms.
GA: Classrooms.
CS: So yeah, we did. We had classes in there.
GA: Because when you graduated, I think Saugatuck was much smaller than Fennville.
CS: M-hm.
GA: How many were in your graduating class?
CS: Ten.
GA: Oh, my word! [Laughs] Now there’s probably, what, 70 or 80?
CS: Oh, yeah.
GA: Over 100 maybe.
CS: Yeah.
GA: See, I don’t know.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Wow. Because I can remember the building being up there, and I haven’t been… Aren’t
there apartments over there now?
CS: Yes, condos.
GA: Condos. They just took down the school, or what?
CS: Well, they took down the old school and built a one-story school.
GA: I remember that too.
CS: Right in that spot.
�GA: Oh, really?
CS: I think they took down the red brick part too. The gym was left. Then they built the onestory, but it wasn’t very well constructed. It didn’t last.
GA: I guess not.
CS: So, then they built where it is now.
GA: Where it is now.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Because that’s state of the art now, as far as. My brother and sister-in-law came over and
moved here from the Detroit area, and they were like, “Wow!” They couldn’t believe what a
wonderful athletic facility they have. They said, “My word, this is better than anything we’ve
seen in a long time.” They were really impressed. Okay, when you were in high school, they
were still called the Saugatuck Indians?
CS: Oh, yeah. Still are.
GA: Is there going to be any change to that?
CS: They’re not.
GA: I hope not too, because it just…
CS: We had a big meeting, oh, two or three years ago, and someone wanted to change the name,
drop the name.
GA: But with the name Saugatuck, that’s an Indian name.
CS: An Indian name.
GA: You know what it means, don’t you?
CS: Bend of the river, I think.
GA: I think.
CS: It has different meanings, but mouth of the river, bend of the river.
�GA: Saugatuck, it’s a neat, neat place. It certainly has been well-known for years and years and
years. So, you lived here, too, then, when they had the jazz festivals?
CS: Yeah.
GA: What do you remember of that?
CS: I didn’t go to those. I wasn’t interested in that.
GA: From what I’ve heard, the jazz festivals were supposed to be out where the racetrack is.
Yes.
GA: But, people, the college kids and such, the troublemakers or whatever didn’t go to that.
They just congregated in downtown.
CS: Came in downtown.
GA: Because they wanted to
CS: Drink.
GA: Drink and riot and just have a good time.
CS: Yeah.
GA: See, you lived then. Well, actually your address in Saugatuck was on the other side of the
river, so you didn’t have to be involved in that.
CS: Right. M-hm. Stayed out of town.
GA: I don’t blame you. I remember seeing pictures of this just jammed with people in front of
the Old Crow and such, and Coral Gables.
CS: I remember, in the daytime working in the restaurant, there were always a lot of people
around.
GA: That would have been about the same time, then, that the pavilion burned. Was that when
they had them, or was that later?
CS: That was later.
�GA: It was later, okay.
CS: The pavilion was gone then. That was just a parking lot, I think.
GA: So, there was a parking lot across from The Hollyhock.
M-hm. Down on the river.
GA: On the river.
CS: I think that property was sold to the Singapore Yacht Club. They had the parking lot.
GA: Oh, okay.
CS: They had their boats docked on the water there. One more thing, going back to the fire. We
were wondering what to do about classes and things. And there was talk. [Coughs] Excuse me.
GA: We need a bottle of water, but we don’t have any.
CS: I don’t need a water. There was talk of merging with Fennville.
GA: Really? Such rivalry.
CS: We did not want it.
GA: I’m sure Fennville didn’t want it either.
CS: We had a demonstration march.
GA: Oh, really?
CS: [Chuckles] I shouldn’t be telling you that.
GA: Well, I went to Fennville as you know, and we would have felt the same way. We don’t
want to join with those Saugatuck Indians! They are our rivals.
CS: That’s when they decided to rebuild.
GA: That was in the – I don’t remember that at all.
CS: I don’t know if we have any pictures of it? We must have pictures…
GA: So, there was a demonstration?
�CS: Oh, yeah. Saying, “No, no, no, no!” And, so, they listened.
25:04
CS: Then there was another… All these people were coming to the restaurant. There was a
group that came it. It was one of the musical groups at that time. I can’t remember the name, but
somebody said that’s who they are. They autographed a paper napkin and left it on the table. So,
I picked it up and kept it. I still have it.
GA: You’ll find it some place and go, “Oh, that’s where it is!”
CS: I can’t remember the name of the group. There were four or five fellows that were in it.
GA: Were they singers?
CS: Singers, instruments and singing.
GA: Ah.
CS: I’ll find it and give it to the archives.
GA: Yeah! You should because that would be special. So, did you have different napkins that
said Hollyhock House on them?
CS: No, just plain white.
GA: Plain white napkins, okay. But somebody autographed it, like The Beach Boys or
something. A well-known group.
CS: Yes, they were well-known at the time. I don’t know if anyone would remember them now.
GA: Oh, I’m sure oldies like the two of us would remember. Now, do you remember what they
ordered? You waited on them, right?
CS: Yeah. It was breakfast. I don’t remember what they had. But I thought, I’m going to save
that. I don’t know why, but…
GA: I’m glad you did! And you’ll find it, it’ll turn up, and you’ll say, “Hey, there it is.” You
probably have it in a book or something to keep itCS: In a box that I’m saving. [Both laugh]
�GA: Did you have other celebrities that came to eat at The Hollyhock House?
CS: I don’t remember. I was trying to remember if Burt Tilstrom came in [Indistinguishable]
GA: Yes.
CS: I remember when he passed by out on the street.
GA: On the street.
CS: And the dragon was hanging out the window. [Both laugh] Someone he knew was eating at
the restaurant. So he stuck the dragon out the window.
GA: That’s neat.
CS: Ollie.
GA: I remember watching that on TV. Cuckoo Friend and Ollie. What year was that, I can’t
remember?
CS: Must have been in the 50s.
GA: Early 60s.
CS: Yeah, 50s.
GA: Okay, do you remember seeing that dragon sticking out of the window, was the pavilion in
the background, or had it burned down by then?
CS: I think that it burned.
GA: It burned. So it had to be after 1960 of May.
CS: Yeah, I’m not quite sure.
GA: You said you worked there for about 20 years, then.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Wow.
CS: Yeah, I started working there in… Let me see. I think it would have been 1965. So, maybe it
wasn’t 20 years.
�GA: Maybe you subbed in somewhere or helped out sometimes, too. I remember because I had a
friend, Bob Breckenridge, who worked in the bank.
CS: Yeah.
GA: And I would mock him and say, “Yeah, you don’t even have a job. You’re finished with
work at 3:00 in the afternoon. That’s no job.”
CS: The bank used to close at 3.
GA: I remember that, yeah. But, you start work at what time?
CS: 9:00.
GA: 9:00. But you didn’t leave at 3:00.
CS: Oh, no, no. We were there.
GA: Because you had to make sure everything was …
CS: Yeah. And, let’s see what else. Well, I was offered the job at the bank. I didn’t apply for it.
GA: Oh, that’s a compliment! So they came to you and said, “Cynthia.”
CS: I was taking a refresher course in typing up at the high school, an evening class. Mrs.
Showers, do you remember Louise Showers?
GA: I remember the name, but.
CS: Yeah, she was there, too, because she was starting to work at the bank. She had to learn how
to type. [Chuckles] And she told the bank manager.
GA: Who was?
CS: Mill Stahl.
GA: Okay.
CS: And she said he should ask me to work there because I was such a good typist.
GA: Ah.
�CS: So, I came into the bank and he asked me if I’d like to work there. It was just part time,
because I had to work at the restaurant in the morning. I could work at the bank in the afternoon.
Well, that lasted a week, and then he wants me full time. And Irene Simonson.
GA: Okay.
CS: She was a customer of my aunt’s who came every day for coffee. She said she’d like to have
a job working the restaurant.
GA: Oh really?
CS: She just jumped at the chance.
GA: So, she filled in for you and you went to the bank, then.
CS: Yeah.
30:00
GA: Okay, may I ask you a personal question? When you worked at The Hollyhock House, how
much did you get paid an hour? Not with tips.
CS: I came across some pay stubs the other day throwing stuff out, and it seems like it was about
a quarter.
GA: Oh, that’s good. Oh, I think so. When I worked at The Redwood, I got 50 cents an hour, and
that was in the early 60s. Oh, so, my word, I didn’t know that!
CS: But, we made good tips there.
GA: Oh, I’m sure you would have, yes.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Well, that was very profitable.
CS: Yeah. When you stop to think about it, it was good at that time.
GA: And when you worked at the bank, you had given up your job to Irene SimonCS: Irene Simonson, yes. Her husband was the photographer.
�GA: Yes. I’ve heard that name.
CS: Carl. Carl Simonson.
GA: I would never recognize her if I saw her, but I’ve heard the name.
CS: Well, you probably knew her son, Bruce. He was village maintenance, head of village
maintenance for 50 years.
GA: I just nominated Tanya, but that’s it. Your cousin, Frank Lamb, I know.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Because he was on the basketball team.
CS: Yeah.
GA: I’ve probably told you, but we used to call him The Nicotine Five. Isn’t that terrible?
Because it was Frank Lamb, name me some of the other guys. Lovejoy. Frank Lovejoy.
CS: Yeah. Ralph Brickles.
GA: Ralph Brickles. Bob Breckenridge.
CS: I don’t know. But Bob was younger… Rick Francis.
GA: Rick Francis, yes! I thought it was Rex, but Rex went to Fennville then.
CS: Yeah. He went to Fennville.
GA: He… [gasp] He changed sides.
CS: Well, he had to.
GA: Yeah, I think there was a little problem there.
CS: He and the coach, who was the school principal at the timeGA: Oh, really?
CS: Had a disturbance…
GA: There was an altercation.
�CS: Let’s see. Frank and Ralph, Oh, Bill Hedgeland, I think.
GA: That’s right.
CS: He was one of them.
GA: Will Hedgeland, yes, he was one of them. Oh, that’s right. Because you had a good team.
CS: Oh, yeah.
GA: They were very good and I know it was always the-. When you played Saugatuck, when
Fennville played, that was the game.
CS: M-hm.
GA: And we played each other twice. Once in Saugatuck, once in Fennville. And those were the
biggest turnouts. They were the most exciting.
CS: Yeah, still are.
GA: The rivalry. I don’t know, when did the rivalry start?
CS: Probably from the very beginning.
GA: From the beginning, yeah. The Blackhawks and the Indians. The Indians were really, really
tough. I remember being in that gym, and it would be so crowded. I know one time my dad was
sitting up at the top, and there were guys with snare drums up above him, and a snare drum fell
off and hit him right in the head.
CS: Oh, gosh.
GA: Isn’t that a weird thing to remember? But, it was very crowded in there, very tight. As I
recall, the bleachers seemed like they were right on the floor. There was not much room at all.
CS: Yeah, it wasn’t very big.
GA: But, it was filled with lots of excited spectators. Wow. Now, going back to, I keep thinking
about The Hollyhock. How long, then, did your aunt have that? When did she close it?
CS: She closed it in 1970, I believe.
GA: So, ten years after the pavilion burned.
�CS: Yeah, she wasn’t well, so she had to give it up.
GA: And nobody took it over?
CS: Oh yeah. I can’t remember their last name, but it probably was Sullivan or something. This
couple took it over and kept the name.
GA: They kept the name The Hollyhock.
CS: They were, they just didn’t have as good of a restaurant.
GA: I’m sure all the clientele figured that out early on.
CS: Yeah. I think they sold to Marrows.
GA: Oh, okay.
CS: Then Marrows was built in the vacant lot next door to build over the house.
GA: Because Marrows has been there quite a while.
CS: Oh, yeah.
GA: Probably since, what, the mid 70s, then?
CS: Probably. I can’t remember the years now. I know there was a couple from Indiana that had
the Marrows restaurant for a year. They would come up every summer and open up. They were
jealous of my aunt’s restaurant because their food wasn’t that good. [Laughs]
GA: And she always liked to cook?
CS: Oh, yeah.
GA: But she’d never been a restauranter like this before? An entrepreneur or anything?
35:04
CS: Well, when she first came to Saugatuck, she worked at The Green Parrot, I think was the
restaurant’s name, so she worked there.
GA: So, she said, “I can do this even better on my own.”
CS: Well, she didn’t start right away. My father and John Ball had a restaurant on Mason Street.
�GA: Oh, really, your dad?
CS: Yes, they just had hamburgers and chili.
GA: Oh, okay.
CS: And my aunt worked there as a waitress.
GA: Frank’s mom?
CS: Yeah. My mother did the dishes and Mrs. Ball made the pies.
GA: Oh, really?
CS: And from there, the Balls opened their own restaurant on Butler Street. John Ball
Restaurant. I don’t remember…
GA: Now is that relation to the John Ball of Grand Rapids? John Ball Park?
CS: No, no.
GA: No relation whatsoever.
CS: And then my aunt opened her… opened Hollyhock House, because my dad went back to
building. He’d rather be building than be in a restaurant.
GA: That was much more his style.
CS: So, my aunt opened Hollyhock House and the Balls opened their restaurant.
GA: So, really, there were quite a few restaurants in Saugatuck.
CS: Oh, yeah.
GA: I remember the Hollyhock, and I remember you used to go downstairs and it was called….
So, it would be in the south end where… What is it called? The Old Crow in the south end? You
would go downstairs and there was something called the…
CS: The Ratskeller.
GA: The Ratskeller, that’s right. I can remember that, and I can remember upstairs.
CS: That was, uh, El Forno.
�GA: El Forno.
CS: And next to that was the Old Crow Bar.
GA: The Old Crow Bar, okay. The Ratskeller, that’s right, it was downstairs. What do they call
it… The Soda Lounge next to the drugstore?
CS: That was on Butler Street.
GA: Oh, that was on Butler Street, okay.
CS: It was kind of at the back of The Hollyhock House, facing the other side of the street.
GA: Ah, because I remember all of the Saugatuck kids going. They called it the Scrounge.
CS: Oh.
GA: What was it called?
CS: The Soda Lounge.
GA: They’d call it the Scrounge. I don’t ever remember being in it, but I remember them talking
about it.
CS: It had been there a long time.
GA: Well, go ahead.
CS: They used to, they’d go on up after the ball games. The kids could come in.
GA: Oh, okay.
CS: I don’t know that they were open every evening, but after aGA: After a ball game of some sort. Basketball, football, something like that.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Oh, no, because Saugatuck didn’t have football.
CS: No.
GA: That’s right, so they had… Did they have a baseball team?
�CS: I don’t know, I don’t think so.
GA: So, just basketball.
CS: Just basketball.
GA: So, no tennis or…
CS: Nope.
GA: Oh, my word. Then, that’s why the guys were so good. They didn’t have to practice
anything else. [Both chuckle]
CS: Then, The Soda Lounge moved across the street. It closed up when they were across the
street next to the bank, because it was the bank on the corner.
GA: Which is now The Garden, right?
CS: Yeah. It was just a small… This was after Mike Kenny died. His wife and her sister had The
Soda Lounge and it was just a smaller place. They ran that for a while.
GA: Had the drugstore always had the soda bar in the back, there, too?
CS: Yeah. Well, when we first came, it was right in the front part, The Soda Lounge. I mean, the
drugstore.
GA: The drugstore.
CS: Over on the north wall. They had The Soda Lounge, a soda bar there. When Christianson
took it over, he added on the back of the building and had it back there.
GA: Is it still there?
CS: Oh, yeah.
GA: I remember, every summer…
CS: They don’t serve all year round. It’s in the summertime.
GA: Okay. Because it was always the neatest thing to come to Saugatuck. It was always kind of,
“This is enemy territory.” Isn’t that terrible?
�CS: It was a bad town.
GA: No, it wasn’t a bad town, it was enemy territory. Oh, let’s go to Saugatuck. I can still
remember that. Did you ever go to Whatnot Inn?
CS: Yeah.
GA: That was, when I think of it, thinking of it now, we used to go there as kids, but it was a bar
then!
CS: Probably, yeah.
40:00
GA: I guess, I would never allow my kids to go to a bar by themselves, but we did. Maybe our
folks didn’t know. I don’t know.
CS: Maybe they knew the people that were running it and it would be…
GA: That’s right.
CS: I don’t remember.
GA: Deanne DeAngelo.
CS: Deanne.
GA: DeAngelos, that’s right! Sure, she was. I remember, she was a very pretty girl. Deanne
DeAngelo.
CS: M-hm.
GA: That’s right. Well, then, I’m sure it was okay with the DeAngelos.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Even if it was a bar. Huh.
CS: It was a family-run place. I was trying to remember when the bank was on the corner.
GA: M-hm. I can remember the bank being on the corner. That’s where the rose garden is now.
�CS: I think it was being remodeled or something. They had to move the money. Every night,
they had to move the money out of the vault over to the drugstore.
GA: Really?
CS: They kept it over there.
GA: Oh, my word.
CS: Then they brought it back in the morning. I think they must have been remodeling at that
time. I wasn’t working there then, so I can’t remember, but that was so funny that…
GA: They’d take the money from the bank.
CS: In the afternoon they’d take the money to the drug store in a wheelbarrow. [Both laugh].
GA: And I’m sure everybody knew what was happening.
CS: Oh, yeah. There was one, two policemen in town.
GA: So, they would escort it over there?
CS: Yeah.
GA: Oh, that’s neat!
CS: And they brought it back in the morning.
GA: With a police escort?
CS: Yeah.
GA: Now, I remember the bank being a red brick, sort of a flat building. Was it always that way?
CS: It is now. It was a two-story yellow brick building on the corner.
GA: Maybe I’m just remembering what it is now, because now it’s back farther than what it was.
CS: M-hm.
GA: Because before it was…
CS: Where the rose garden is.
�GA: Oh. But it was a two-story. I guess I don’t…
CS: Yes, it was a two-story. There was a dentist up above, an attorney, and some lady.
GA: I didn’t know that. What was it called? Not The Chemical Bank.
CS: No.
GA: It was called what?
CS: Fruit Growers.
GA: That’s right, Fruit Growers Bank.
CS: Then, we merged with South Haven’s Citizens’ Trusted Savings, and it became Citizens’
Trusted Savings. And then they decided to build a new building, the red brick bank.
GA: So, that was probably, what? In the 80s or 90s? I don’t know.
CS: 1971.
GA: Oh, 70s!
CS: In 1971, they moved into the new brick building.
GA: So, you remember the move, then, very vividly?
CS: Oh, yeah. We had to help carry all of the stuff over to the new bank.
GA: So, you were working at the bank when they were remodeling and would take it across, or
was that before?
CS: That was before.
GA: That was before. They must have had a huge safe, then, to hold all of the money from the
bank.
CS: I don’t know what they, how they did it.
GA: I hope they didn’t just put it on a shelf someplace. [Laughs]
CS: Unless, well, there was a big vault in the bank. Maybe they could keep most of it… Well,
they had to have safe deposit boxes in there.
�GA: Yeah, they would take a couple… You can’t have more than ten of those.
CS: And then the daily money they took over to the drug store.
GA: Wow!
CS: The old old bank had a corner… [Indistinguishable]
GA: Oh, on the outside of it?
CS: Yeah. That’s what they took down and remodeled.
GA: When they were remodeling, yeah, okay. Hmmm. When was it built originally, do you
know?
CS: I don’t remember.
GA: But, a long, long time ago. But, yellow brick?
CS: M-hm.
GA: Interesting. Did it take up that whole space? It was really quite large.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Much larger than it is now.
CS: Yeah, well…
GA: Did it have a basement?
CS: This one has a basement.
GA: There was a basement.
CS: There was a basement too in the old one, yeah.
GA: Did you ever go down there?
CS: Yeah. It was all dark and spidery.
GA: So, it wasn’t all nice and clean, you know, with lights.
�CS: When they were going to tear it down and move everything over to the new bank, we had to
go down there to see if there was something we had to save. A lot of stuff we probably should
have saved but didn’t. It was just piled away.
GA: Well, when was this new one built, then? You said about ’71.
CS: Yeah.
GA: So, did it take them? I mean, you moved in ’71 or ’72?
CS: It was finished in 1971.
GA: 1971.
CS: We moved everything over there.
GA: And then you worked there for how many more years?
CS: Altogether, starting at the corner, 35 years.
GA: Oh, my word! That’s wonderful! And this all came because you were such a good typist.
CS: Yeah. And now, I can’t type. [Laughs]
45:03
GA: Oh, well, hey. Now, everything is done… The kids are good at… When they dig up
students’ bodies they are going to wonder why their thumbs look so strange, but that’s how they
do their typing.
CS: Well, we had typewriters.
GA: Well, that was before computers.
CS: Yeah. We had computers towards the end.
GA: Towards the end, okay.
CS: Of my employment there. That’s when I got out. I didn’t want to get confused. Well, I
wanted to retire anyways.
GA: But you were there when they had the big robbery, weren’t you?
�CS: I was working there, but I hadn’t gotten there. This happened early in the morning, 8:00 in
the morning, and I got there at 8:30. It was just Pat and Frank Wicks that were there.
GA: But you heard about it, then?
CS: When I came to work, Pat met me at the back door, and she said, “Well, we’ve been
robbed.” And then she said, “You gotta come in.” The place was full of police and sheriffs.
GA: What did they ask you?
CS: I really can’t remember. We had to take lie detector tests there. During the investigation, we
all had to take lie detector tests. Like, where were we and when did we come to work, and all
that. I can’t really remember that.
GA: So, then, you would come in a back door.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Because banks didn’t open until what, 9:00?
CS: 9:00. We never could quite figure out how they got the front door open. They just walked
right in even though they had been locked the night before, but somehow they…
GA: Did they ever catch them?
CS: They didn’t catch-. Oh, well, they did, but this was long after.
GA: Because they wore masks, like presidential masks or something like this.
CS: I can’t remember that, because I didn’t see them, but one of them was arrested down in
Florida. He ratted on the rest of them.
GA: Oh, okay.
CS: Told them who the rest of them were.
GA: They had to be… They really planned that, then.
CS: Yeah. They were… They were renting a condo as you come into town. It was on the river
right there as you turned into Saugatuck, North Shore Harbor Condos, or something. They had
been living… They were living there. They had rented there.
�GA: And they just cased the whole place?
CS: They knew when Brinks was going to come and pick up the money. It was…. It was Labor
Day weekend. And, of course, Brinks didn’t come that Monday, so all that money was held over
to the next weekend.
GA: They were very professional, then, weren’t they?
CS: They never did recover any of the money, but eventually all of them were caught.
GA: But they never, ever figured out how they were able to get in those front windows, those
front doors?
CS: No. I wonder if they ever questioned them to find out how they did it.
GA: I would think so, because obviously they’d have to have…
CS: Tools. I don’t know.
GA: You’ve had some experiences here, haven’t you?
CS: Then we had a fire in the new bank.
GA: Oh, I didn’t know this! Tell me about that.
CS: I forget when it happened, but it was at night. Somebody coming out of The Sand Bar saw
smoke coming up from the bank and called the fire department. The manager, John Guyer, was
living on Cambeck Road. They called him, and he went down there, and Pat. Pat was where she
lives now, so she came. They had three people to call if anything happened. One was the
manager, one was Pat, and one was me. Pat tried to get me, but I didn’t hear the phone.
GA: Well, it was in the middle of the night, so.
CS: Yeah. Well, I did finally get down there. It was an electrical fire in the box where all the
wires and things were. John Guyer, the first thing he thought about were the Carl Herman
paintings.
GA: Oh.
�CS: There were four of them in the bank, and he got them all down. The fire was over where
they were hanging on the wall. He got them all down, covered them up, and then saved them all.
50:04
GA: Well, that was very lucky. Was there much damage done inside the bank?
CS: Oh, yeah. We couldn’t. We couldn’t work in there. We had to get a trailer out in the parking
lot. We had to work out of the trailer.
GA: For probably a couple of weeks.
CS: Well, longer than that.
GA: Longer than that?
CS: It was during the winter.
GA: Oh, no!
CS: And it was cold. [Both chuckle]
GA: Oh, dear.
CS: Nothing under the trailer. They had straw bales under the sides.
GA: But that doesn’t protect much, oh my word.
CS: Every night, we had to bring everything over into the vault and lock it up. The vault was
still..
GA: Still useable.
CS: Still useable, yeah.
GA: In the bank.
CS: Because it had been closed-up while the fire was going on.
GA: That would be fireproof, too, I’m sure.
CS: Yeah.
�GA: Wow.
CS: But the restrooms were over there. [Both laugh] We didn’t have any in the trailer.
GA: [Laughs] My turn! I can’t wait! Hurry up and take this customer!
CS: You’d put a coat on and run over there.
GA: Oh, dear. [Chuckles] When was this, do you remember what year?
CS: Gosh, I can’t remember the date.
GA: Well, it was after ’71, though.
CS: Yeah.
GA: So, probably the late 80s, maybe?
CS: The 80s, okay. Yeah, it had to have been in the 80s.
GA: So, the bank was really not that old.
CS: No. There was a basement in that bank, too. There was smoke, the smell of smoke down
there, but I don’t remember any damage in the basement. It was all on the upper level.
GA: Luckily, someone was coming out of The Sand Bar and caught it.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Wow.
CS: I don’t think of anything else. Well, it must have been around Christmastime when it
happened, because we had a Christmas tree in the lobby.
GA: A Christmas tree, okay. But, then you didn’t have room for that when you moved into this
itty bitty…
CS: Oh, no. It was… We probably got back into the bank in the spring or summer.
GA: But even so, that’s gonna be quite a while.
CS: It was a long time, especially in the winter to be freezing like that.
�GA: See, I’d never heard that before. I’m sure a lot of people.
CS: I have photographs of the trailer, it would have been the trailer.
GA: I’d bet they’d like that here, it would be nice.
CS: Well, they’ve got a lot of those. It was around the holidays because the people in town were
so good to us. They kept bringing us food.
GA: Probably hot cocoa or something like that.
CS: We did have coffee. But they brought cakes, and rolls, and donuts.
GA: All those good things.
CS: Candy, man. A lot of stuff.
GA: And I think that’s part of what makes Saugatuck so neat because it’s so small, especially in
the wintertime. Everybody knows everybody.
CS: Yeah.
GA: Because all of the outsiders, I should say a majority of them, are gone because people are
not going to come here in the wintertime, because it’s mainly the summer, the water, the hunting,
the fishing.
CS: One winter, we had one of those sled dog races.
GA: Down to Main Street?
CS: I don’t know. I think they were out of town, but they were all in town with the dogs. This
was after the pavilion was gone.
GA: So, after 1960.
CS: Yeah. All these people were there with their sled dogs. They all came into town.
GA: Well, that would be a good draw. So, they went right down Butler Street, then? Main
Street?
CS: I can’t remember where they raced. It had to be out of town, probably, but they parked their
trailers in town.
�GA: Woof, woof, lots of dogs. Well, that would be exciting. Those are good memories.
CS: We used to have a rubber duck parade race on the river.
GA: Oh really?
CS: Where people would sponsor a rubber duck.
GA: In front of the pavilion?
CS: No, it was down by the ferry. We’d dump them all in the river and see who won.
GA: So did they go… I don’t know what way the river flows, probably to the lake.
CS: Yeah.
GA: So, they would float north, right?
CS: I don’t know if they had a way to keep them from going all the way to the lake.
GA: They probably had a cut off for whose got there first?
CS: Yeah.
GA: Ah, that’s fun.
CS: We only did that once?
GA: Did you do it?
CS: No.
55:00
GA: Oh, Cynthia, come on! Rubber duckies! [Both laugh] Were they yellow ones, or bright?
CS: They were yellow.
GA: And they had numbers on them so you could know whose was whose?
CS: M-hm.
GA: Oh, that’s neat. What else can you think of that was different? I’ve never heard of that.
That’s neat.
�CS: This is jumping around.
GA: Oh, that’s okay.
CS: They used to have Venetian Night at the pavilion where people would come in costume and
they had dancing and costumes and the Venetian Boat Parade used to be really big. There used to
be 25-30 boats in the parade with decorated…
GA: Decorated with lights on them and costume and theme. I would assume they had a theme
they would carry out?
CS: I don’t know if they ever had a theme, you just decorated. There were a lot of them. And
then, when gas got expensive, the boats, they didn’t want to use their gas in a parade, so.
GA: And probably different organizations or families or whatever would have the boat, or it
could be your little boat.
CS: Yeah.
GA: For example, Oxbow might have one or something like that.
CS: They had one, and the Saugatuck Yacht Club and the Singapore Yacht Club. Different
groups would have a boat decorated.
GA: That’s neat!
CS: And then, I used to sit on the roof of my aunt’s restaurant to watch it at night.
GA: Oh, it was at night?
CS: The boat parade was at night.
GA: Oh, sure, with all of the lights on it would be much more exciting. So, you sat on the roof?
CS: Yeah, I could climb out the bedroom, out of the hall window and sit and get a good view.
GA: [Laughs] And not get yelled at, right?
CS: That must have been after the pavilion was gone, otherwise there wouldn’t be much to see.
GA: Otherwise, the pavilion would have been in the way.
�CS: Yeah.
GA: And nobody yelled at you for sitting on the roof?
CS: No. [Both laugh]
GA: Oh my word. Well, Cynthia, this has been very, very interesting. When you think of some
other things, we will talk the next time we do newsletters. I’ll try to take notes or not. I don’t
have a little recorder, but I think this would be really, really great for them. I thank you so much
for sharing these memories with me. Remember they are going to go to Grand Valley.
CS: I didn’t know that. I thought it was going to be kept here.
GA: Well, yes, but they will go there. I think that’s where they are going to sort through them
and put them all in, then coming back because they are going to stay here as far as this is
concerned. Stories of Summer, is that what the whole thing is called?
CS: A lot of mine was winter. [Chuckles]
GA: Well, its memories of the Saugatuck-Douglas area. So, thank you very much, Cynthia. I
appreciate that. This was fun, and it wasn’t so horrible, was it?
CS: Well…
GA: Well, yes, I know. [Chuckles]
CS: I can’t think.
GA: Oh, yes you can.
CS: Of dates and things like that. I don’t remember certain dates.
GA: Well, I think you’ve done a very good job. I enjoyed it, and I’ve learned a lot. We know
that you will not have your picture taken because that’s what you said.
CS: Right.
GA: So, that’s going to be on here before I shut it off.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
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Various
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
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Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
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Image
Text
Language
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English
Date
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2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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DC-07_SD-SorensenC_2018-07-21
Creator
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Sorensen, Cynthia
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-21
Title
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Cynthia Sorenson (audio interview and transcript) 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Cynthia Sorensen shares her memories of the burning of the Big Pavilion, attending high school, and working at The Hollyhock House.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Asman, Gina (interviewer)
Kutzel, Ken (interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Restaurants
Allegan County (Mich.)
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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Sound
Text
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3649dc866f590ee816a0e6e8b6311c7b.pdf
202dc9558755d9e3993551f6d6d88186
PDF Text
Text
Larry Philips interviewed by Eric Gollanek and Megan Stevens
July 21, 2018
EG: This is Eric Golloneck and Megan Stevens and I'm here today with say your nameLP: Larry Philips
EG: at the old schoolhouse in Douglas Michigan. on July 21, 2018. This oral history is being
collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by Grant from the
National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage program. Thank you for taking the
time to talk with me today. I'm interested to learn more about your family history and your
experiences this summer, in particular in the Saugatuck-Douglas area. Can you please tell me
your full name, Larry, and spell it?
LP: It's Larry Richard Phillips. L A R R Y R I C H A R D P H I L L I P S.
EG: Okay, very good. So, we'll start in the beginning you were talking about the old
schoolhouse and being a student here. Tell me bit about where you grew up.
LP: I grew up in Douglas [Laugh]
EG: Okay.
LP: We lived in Saugatuck with my dad who's in the service.
EG: Okay.
LP: In fact, I met my dad when I was five years old. when we went to pick him up on the bus
when he came back from World War II.
MS: Wow, that's an amazing story.
LP: And I went to the first grade over there and then we moved to Douglas and I was in the
second grade here.
EG: So, first grade in Saugatuck and then transferred if you will cross the river.
LP: The River here to Douglas, yeah.
EG: Very good. Tell me little bit about your parents and your family and maybe their names and
�what they did, what their background is with..
LP: My family… My wife's name is Carol. We've got three children. Alison, Kevin, and
Michelle. Alison lives in Hudsonville and the other two are located pretty local. They're out on
Old Allegan Road.
EG: Okay, so stayed close, family stayed close together.
LP: Yep, pretty close.
EG: Your parents, you mentioned your father was in the service in World War II. What was his
name?
LP: Henry Phillips was his name.
EG: Was he from Saugatuck originally?
LP: No, he was from Fennville.
EG: Okay. So, there's a family connection there in the area. What was his role in the second
World War?
LP: Just Infantry.
EG: Was he in Europe?
LP: Yes.
EG: Or the Pacific?
LP: Landed in Italy and walked to England.
EG: Okay.
MS: Wow.
[All Laugh]
LP: As the war moved, so. Right, yeah. He didn't really walk to England, because you have to
get across the water. [Laughs] There's some other transportation involved.
�EG: For sure, yeah. What were some of your of most vivid memories from childhood growing
up and Douglas?
LP: Vivid ones? [Laughs]
EG: Ones that stuck out, memories growing up. They could be here at school or could be off you
know in the neighborhood or off at the the beach or river, or…
LP: As a kid, I mean we probably use the athletic field down there for everything because we
played, I think, baseball, every day that it was a good day. Yeah, in the winter we always went
sledding to the golf course.
EG: Uh-huh.
LP: Had bicycles in the summer, would ride to Baldhead. We'd climb the face of Baldhead.
Can't do that anymore, but back then, you could.
[All Laugh]
EG: Uh-huh.
LP: And, yeah that's really just about it.
EG: Yeah, how about… You mentioned your father in Fennville. Your mother's family? Was
she also from Fennville?
LP: My mother's family was from Sweden. and they were in Minnesota, then they went to
Chicago, and then they bought a a farm up here and my mother graduated from this school.
EG: Okay.
LP: Oh. and my dad's mother graduated, which is my grandmother. She graduated from this
school too in eighth grade.
EG: What was your mother's name?
LP: Francis.
EG: And what was her maiden name?
�LP: Ekdahl.
EG: Can you spell that?
LP: E K D A H L. Wait a minute, it might be E C ? E C K D A H L. Boy, I've never been asked
us to for a long time.
EG: Yeah, that's a tough one to pull off, yeah.
LP: I was thinking about the family history pieces and thinking about those. My cousin Alice,
her last name was Eckdahl. She's married to John Bock, who was an ex-Fire Chief in Saugatuck.
EG: Okay.
MS: Oh, wow.
EG: A close web of connections in a small town right, or series of towns.
5:01
EG: So, deep roots here in the community, gets a little sense of how your family first came here.
Particular memories you had growing up here that you know you say that were good or bad parts
about being in town or growing up here?
LP: They were always really good because we had Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. We used at sea
scouts. I never belonged to the sea scouts.
EG: Okay.
LP: Yeah.
EG: Were there some particular activities that stand out from that for you?
LP: Just playing ball.
EG: Just playing ball. How about in the scouts?
LP: At that time there was a shuffleboard dollar tennis court.
�EG: Okay.
LP: The whole works. Plenty of things.
EG: Lots of activities down there. I know in some other interviews, baseball stood out as the
sport in town. In town, yeah, now when you… When you went to Fennville for high school did
you participate in any sports or clubs or anything?
LP: No, I couldn't because I had to ride the bus back. There was no way for me to get back.
When my parents picked me up because we only had one car, and my dad used that because he
was working.
EG: Oh.
LP: So, I couldn't get involved in sports. I would have played baseball if I would have been able
to get back and forth.
EG: What were the years, approximately, that you were in school that you were in school here in
Douglas?
LP: I think I started school here, it was either '46 or '47.
EG: Okay.
LP: And then I graduated from the eighth grade here. And then I graduated from high school in
1957, in Fennville.
EG: Right. Was there a particular reason that you went to high school in Fennville as opposed to
Saugatuck?
LP: At that time, Douglas with a separate identity.
EG: Right.
LP: Saugatuck had the high school. We weren't tied in with Saugatuck, so we could go to any
one wanted to. Then, some of the kids went to Saugatuck.
EG: Right.
LP: There was a bus that went to town for Fennville, so...
�EG: Got you, that was more convenient.
LP: There were about four or five of us that went to Fennville. Because of the bus, it was more
convenient, as opposed to Saugatuck, where you would just have to walk.
EG: Walk, right.
LP: Or get a ride or something.
EG: Yeah. Got you. Very interesting. Very much kind of a world.
LP: All of the roads are gravel except the road that come down through town. Okay, that used to
be Old 31.
EG: Right.
MS: How mock the gravel roads everywhere.
LP: All gravel.
EG: Growing up here in Douglas in particular were there, were there businesses and places or
institutions beyond the field there that you hung out or that were important for you or your
family?
LP: Well, the one restaurant that was the Soda Lounge, which is now Everyday People. I think
that's always been a restaurant in one shape or form.
EG: Okay, yeah.
LP: And the bakery.
EG: What was the Soda House like when you were growing up or a teenager?
LP: Well, you'd get an ice-cream cone for a nickel. [Laughs]
MS: That's awesome.
EG: That sounds like a good deal.
�LP: You might be allowed one of those every two weeks or so.
[All Laugh]
EG: Right, absolutely.
LP: But then, we go there in the morning when waiting for the bus because it always open it up
so could in where it was warm, which was kind of nice.
EG: For sure.
MS: Very nice.
LP: Bill Kruger was the name of the gentleman who owned it, and where he left I have no idea,
but he coached us to use one of our coaches for baseball.
EG: Okay.
MS: Oh, wow.
EG: Very nice. So, ice-cream there was this was a stand-out. Were there others?
LP: Then the Douglas Bakery was there.
EG: Particular things remember eating from or that you wanted to eat?
LP: I think that was one of my first jobs that I had. I think was eleven years old and sorted pop
bottles and beer bottles.
EG: Okay.
MS: Oh wow.
EG: Uh-huh. Very cool, very interesting, yeah. So, other work? So, thinking about summertime
is the focus of this. Other jobs that you had? It sounds like you worked there, and were there
other things you did during the summertime in terms of work?
LP: I had a ... I delivered papers at that time. I think it cost fifteen cents a week to have the paper
delivered.
�MS: Oh, that's a good deal.
[All Laugh]
LP: In the winter you had to walk it, but if I don't answer the number you could ride a bike.
EG: Right. So, daily? Daily delivery? Was it a daily paper?
LP: Yep, a daily paper.
10:00
EG: Some early mornings.
LP: Some early mornings, yeah. [Chuckles] Then I worked at Sickle's Market.
EG: And what kind work did you do?
LP: Stocking shelves and doing that.
EG: So, tell me a bit about after your graduation from high school what were your steps from
there? What did you do at that point?
LP: Well, I graduated in '57 and I went to work in 1957 in at Food Industries.
EG: Okay.
LP: I work. I worked there for.... jeez. Well, I was part of Lloyd J Harris Pie Company, but it
was called Food Industries.
EG: Okay. What… how did you… what was your entrance there? How did you get hired there?
LP: Stacking crates.
EG: Stacking crates?
LP: Of apples delivering crates of apples.
EG: Okay.
�LP: Well, not crates of apples, the crates. Loading trucks in.
EG: That was a year-round job or seasonal?
LP: The first year was seasonal because I got laid off in the summer EG: Okay.
LP: …but I had another guy who mowed yards. We had a good time doing that. So, we made it
through. It's not a bad place to be in the summer.
EG: No, it isn't.
LP: There's always, you can always find a job, if you want a job.
EG: And then from that point, what other work did you do there? Or, what was your…?
LP: I ended up... I was... The manager that was there was Joe Prentergass, and he was the one
that got us started with Lloyd J Harris. And, then, when I came back to work I took care of
Harris' house. Mowed the yard, cleaned the swimming pool that's one reason we don't have a
swimming pool, because I had my fill of cleaning those. [Laughs]
EG: That was enough of that, right?
LP: Yeah, it was the in summer. Usually had to fix crates or do something else while it was
down.
[Phone Rings]
LP: Oh, I think that's me. Whoops.
EG: That's okay.
LP: I have no idea what it is for. Soon as you touch it, it's gone.
MS: It's ended already.
EG: Not a problem, not a problem at all. Yeah. So other work that you had there with Harris?
Talk a little bit about that.
�LP: Well, yeah, then I started driving truck. okay. and hauling between here and Saugatuck. We
fixed apples, prepared apples for them to make into pies. And also went to... then we'd collect
blueberries in the summer, at the Locker Plant, because they owned that.
EG: So, lots of fruit on the move.
LP: Fruit on the move.
[All Laugh]
EG: Any questions that pop out to you there, Megan?
LP: Seems like it was 62 or 63 when they closed it. Three of us worked up in Shelby, Michigan,
and established another plant up there for doing all the fruit up there with Lloyd Harris. We'd
rode back and forth with him every day.
EG: Kind of… maybe thinking a little bit about Saugatuck and Douglas together, what were
some of your impressions of Saugatuck, as someone living in Douglas through your school years
high school years and beyond?
LP: Oh, we always hung out in Saugatuck.
EG: Okay, spent a lot of time there.
LP: We did. The Soda Lounge was there and that's where everybody congregated, and you had
all the records you listen to. You’d have to pay for it but I mean it was no big deal. Well, it was,
but…
EG: So this will be in the mid-fifties?
LP: Yeah. The big pavilion was there, you'd go there for movies. That's when you're kid. When
you got older it was a bar down there.
MS: That's right.
LP: Spent some time there as well. I guess.
EG: This is good. So yeah, what can you tell me a little bit about the Soda House, the Soda
Lounge? What kind of records were there? Were there…?
�LP: Oh, all 50s.
EG: Oh sure.
LP: Lots of R&B. Galveston. Yeah, a lot of Country Western was starting to be pretty popular
back then.
EG: Are there any particular records you remember or artists you remember?
LP: Not really. [Laughs] That was a long time ago. We had a good time. Had a good time. There
you go, that's right. Of course, cars, hot rod cars were the thing back then, too.
EG: Mhm. Did you have a car?
LP: I did. I did. Yeah, when I was seventeen I bought a brand-new 1958 Chevrolet Impala.
EG: Okay.
MS: Nice.
15:04
LP: Three, 348 engine, dry car, the whole works. That was certainly a car payment. You know,
$107 a month. So, you know I had to work. [Laughs]
EG: What was the terms of that loan? Was it like two years, three years? How did that work?
LP: I remember it cost me $3400, and it weighed 3400 lbs.
EG: A dollar a pound, okay.
LP: It was $107... Yeah, that's how I remember it. The payments were...$100 I think they were
$106. That's why I had to work during the summer when we were laid off.
EG: Sure.
LP: Unemployment paid $40, but I had to pay the rest.
EG: That is a significant car payment. Were there… were their fair number of people you knew
from high school that had cars?
�LP: Oh yeah.
EG: Pretty common?
LP: Yeah, pretty common. Everybody was always wanting to race, one way or another.
EG: Yeah, that is definitely one of the themes that we're really interested in with this project,
especially during the summer. The kind of shenanigans of Saugatuck and Douglas through the
1950's and 60s. Tell me a little bit about racing, hot rod culture.
LP: Well, we used to race in Stanton Michigan. So, every weekend we probably be six or eight
of us that would drive up there. Up by Greenville. Yeah. Up by [Indistinguishable]. I think the
drag strip is still there.
EG: It still is there.
LP: It's still there. And then there was one in Indiana I can't remember the name of that one
right now.
EG: Okay.
LP: We went down there just a couple times. Yeah. We put a group of people from here that you
knew from the community would go up there to Stanton up and down Indiana.
EG: Yeah, interesting.
LP: So, this was the weekend. Usually, every weekend you were somewhere for racing.
EG: Okay, very interesting. How'd that go? [Laugh] How many did you win?
LP: I think I won two trophies.
EG: Okay.
MS: Nice.
[All Laugh]
LP: Right now, you can probably buy those trophies for three dollars, so what you had invested
it wasn't really for making the money.
�EG: Sure, sure. That's fascinating. Did you do a lot of customization or modification that you
made to your cars?
LP: Oh, yeah. Yeah, obviously, all lowered, with laid pipes on. It would come out like…
EG: Yeah. Right. I assume you drove your car, I mean...
LP: Yeah, we drove them back and forth.
EG: Yeah, that's what I meant.
LP: My friend, he had a Corvette. We towed that back with a rope, at fifty-five mile an hour too.
Oh, yeah and he would put his brakes on if he see someone trying to pull out. Because If I just
hit the brakes...
EG: Yeah, right...
Yeah right. I mean... He couldn't quite react, so it was up to him to make sure he can put the
brakes on. So, anyways, up to Stanton, I think it's 80 miles.
EG: It's a long way from here.
LP: 80-90?
EG: Yeah, it'd be a good haul.
LP: It's quite North and East in Grand Rapids. So, yeah and no highways. I mean, no 131, 196,
or any of that.
EG: How did you go up there? Did you just- did you start right away and back roads?
LP: Back roads. Yeah, back roads. That all ended when I got married, so. [Chuckles] Racing
days were over.
EG: How old were you when you got married?
LP: 20.
EG: So, a couple years.
�LP: A couple years. A couple years of having… I'm not gonna say it, good time.
EG: Yeah. How did you meet your wife?
LP: Well, that same summer that I was laid off. I worked for a gentleman who had a milk
delivery.
EG: Okay.
LP: I did the commercial runs every weekend. Well, she was from Hopkins and she was some
living with some lady in Saugatuck, and she worked at the one restaurant where I had made a
delivery and we met that way.
EG: Got you. What was the restaurant?
LP: [Sighs] Ned Roberts owned it. Portacall.
EG: Okay, very good.
LP: Boy, you're getting lucky on my memory. It's not the greatest at times It comes and goes
sometimes. It's like AM radio, fades in, fades out. [All laugh]
19:50
EG: So, racing. Did you ever race at the Air Park Speedway?
LP: No, but we went to there when I was in grade school, because a friend who announced made
the announcements while we were running and all that we'd set up there in the booth with him. It
was Thomas... We had Thomas Insurance here, if you ever heard of that.
EG: I have not, not yet.
[All Laugh]
EG: Not yet. I like that connection.
LP: Yeah, so definitely an interesting in racing and hot rods. That's where we…
EG: Was there driving around racing, racing on the streets as well in this area?
�LP: Oh, yeah. One of the cops used to watch for us help us out. So, that he knew the kids were
doing it, you know, so he would watch over you a little bit me. Try to reduce the chance of
accidents and things like that.
EG: So, get in pretty so decent relationship with the police in town.
Never a problem, yeah.
EG: Yeah. How about when, you know part of the story… kind of you know things going on
and Saugatuck and Douglas go through late 50s and 60s but running with experience with you
know biker gangs is certainly something we've read a lot about. Did have any experience?
LP: We were... I was married when we had that, because I was a fire department over in
Douglas, and they rounded up a bunch of them in right took their motorcycles away from them,
put them in jail overnight and they put everything in the fire department, so the fire departments
guys to go back release them to them and that's how they copped out is what they did. They were
done. But, the guys were decent guys that had the motorcycles, they were just partying and
having a high old time. Sometimes, it got out of control.
EG: Too many, too many drinks too many times.
LP: Too many drinks, yeah.
EG: So you had all those bikes and stuff in fire station while you were there.
LP: Yeah, that's where they put them.
EG: Anything that stands out?
LP: That's when it was underneath the Village Hall.
EG: Okay. Got you.
LP: When the Fire Department was underneath it.
EG: Yeah. Anything that stands out about that? Were they decent guys? Where are these guys
from? Where were these, if you remember? All over?
LP: All over, yeah I think this group was out of Illinois though, kinda sticks in my mind. From
the Chicago area.
�EG: Interesting.
LP: Not trying to pass it onto Illinois. [Laughs]
EG: That's a first... That stands, that jumps out to you.
LP: Yeah, it stands out. I won't say it's a fact, but that's...
EG: Right.
LP: But that was just once that that ever happened, though. But I know the town would be so
busy it would be blocked off. They just stop traffic from going in because it was no more room
for cars to park or do anything else. They just stopped it and barricaded the roads. If you grew up
around here you know how to get in without...
[All Laugh]
MS: Other ways in.
LP: Other ways, yeah. [Laughs]
EG: Knew all the back roads.
LP: Saugatuck's always been a busy, busy town.
EG: Yeah. Lots of activity. Were there, kind of switching, your experiences there. You
mentioned spending a lot of time there, hanging out in high school and teenage years and
twenties. Were there particular places that you, aside from the Soda Lounge, you mentioned bars,
as you got older, bars or restaurants...?
LP: I didn't really frequent the bars. yeah. If anything, once we' were married, we'd go to The
Butler to eat, or the Coral Gables. We didn't do that very often.
[All laugh]
EG: Not common.
LP: Not, no.
�EG: You said you had three kids?
LP: It was a real treat. Three kids.
EG: That's a handful right there
[All Laugh]
LP: You know what you had to order, you knew how much you could spend, and you knew how
many drinks you could have, because you still had to pay the babysitter when you got home, so it
was a good deal whatever you did it. Most of the time, we got together with other people that we
hang around with you know and have get togethers at their house. You know, have dinner or
something. Somebody brings this you bring that. That worked well.
MS: Nice little potluck.
EG: Do you remember some of the families that you guys used to hang out with for dinners and
things like that?
LP: Yeah. A lot of are them gone already. Shruten Gus was one of them. The Whitemans. He
was the plumber in town.
25:12
LP: Oh, golly. I know there was a lot of other people there but you most of are them all gone
now too. Oh, and then we snowmobiled too. We started the snowmobile club, The Snow Gutters.
There were some fifty some members.
EG: What year did that start, approximately? 1960s? 50s.
LP: Oh, quite early. Because I ended up I bought a used snowmobile. It was a year old it, was a
59. Then, I bought a brand-new one that was 1960.
EG: Okay. Nice.
LP: Yeah. That was out at the old airport. Okay. And then you could ride in the winter I mean
the winters were bad enough where you could just take off and ride anywhere you wanna go.
EG: Was that common in town, that people road snow machines in town, or not so much?
�LP: Well, we set up trail areas where you wanted to go into town, to any of The Butler or the
Coral Gables. You had a certain way that we put up signs for snowmobiles in town, in Douglas
also.
EG: Okay, that's great. What were those, do you remember what snowmobiles you had, the 59
and the 60?
LP: Ours were Arctic Cats. There were Arctic Cats, Polaris. I think they're both still about the
only ones going. I can try to remember some of the other names, but I can't. Johnson was making
some.
EG: Yeah, Johnson had one.
LP: Oh, there were a lot of different brands. I don't remember them anymore, I'm sorry.
EG: That's alright, I was just curious. Where did they come from? Was there a dealer? Where
did people get them?
LP: We bought the Arctic Cats in Holland, and Mercury was over across that was one of the
other brands the Mercury Motor, or Snowmobile, yeah and I was trying to think there was
another one up here next to where the Red Wood Drive-In used to be. I can't remember what
brand it was. It was pretty popular, but they would repair any snow mobiles.
EG: Right.
LP: If you had a problem with them, most of time you better do your own fixing. [Laugh]
Which is often.
EG: Often.
[All Laugh]
LP: Yeah, it was.
EG: Very cool. So, it's a winter experience there, too.
LP: Pretty fun stuff from early on.
EG: Yeah. Favorite places to go in the summertime? You mentioned Mount Baldhead and
climbing that as a kid. Oval Beach.
�LP: Yeah, Oval Beach. Douglas Beach. We didn't... We went camping once up to Holland when
the kids were little, stayed up at the State Park. Otherwise, you got you got your summer
destination right here.
EG: Okay.
LP: We had a boat.
EG: A boat as well, nice. Do you have other questions that you can think of here?
MS: Yeah, you mentioned the big pavilion and the pavilion in the movie theater. Did you go
there often or maybe just once or twice?
LP: No, it used to be every week whenever they'd change. If it was a decent movie, we went
over there to see it.
MS: Oh, nice.
LP: And we used to go to the wrestling there. okay. Oh, wrestling? Gorgeous George and all the
Flow Eagle...
[All Laugh]
LP: I can't believe they can fake stuff so well.
EG: They do a pretty good job.
LP: That was inside the big ballroom where they have the wrestling.
EG: Right.
MS: Oh wow.
EG: Other events you remember or other things, memorable things from the Big Pavilion you
remember doing there or seeing in there?
LP: They had a drive theater just half-way to Holland.
EG: Okay.
�LP: Oh yeah, so we go there for movies when the kids are little.
EG: Right.
LP: That was perfect. Yeah, quite a lot of... a lot of people did it.
30:08
EG: So, you mentioned you were in the fire department. Were you in the Fire Department when
the Pavilion caught on fire?
LP: Yes, I was because I was was one of the other firemen and we were up on top of the roof at
the El Forno.
EG: Okay.
LP: Yeah, and it got so hot, we were hiding behind where the air movement came out of the
building you know yeah. Yeah, because it was so hot. When it finally broke lose, really good,
that was a little scary.
EG: I bet.
MS: I can't imagine.
LP: Because if you look where the pavilion was right there in relationship to the El Forno. I
mean, next door.
EG: It was next door you.
LP: Oh, man, because house is on the other side burnt, one of the restaurants and then it was
three houses across the river that caught fire and burned to the ground.
EG: Okay.
MS: Oh wow.
EG: From the embers?
LP: Yeah. It was a good thing the wind was out of the direction that it was.
�EG: Right.
LP: Otherwise, it could have taken could've whole the town.
EG: Right.
MS: Oh wow.
LP: It was a huge fire.
EG: Yeah, for sure. Other parts aspects of that do you remember? How you get the call or how
you respond to that?
LP: I was working at the pie factory and somebody… They just had a bell at that time and then
finally… Well, it was Lloyd Harris himself, he came out to the dock and he says they got severe
fire going on downtown at the pavilion, so you guys can go help so I was not on the fire
department at that time.
EG: Okay, got you. They just recruited you as volunteer.
LP: Yeah, to volunteer to go down and help where you could.
EG: Yeah. When you were up at El Forno's roof, did you have water or something?
LP: Yeah, we had fire hoses.
EG: Okay, got you.
LP: Trying to keep that the roof and that wet, wetted down too, to keep that from catching fire.
EG: Yeah, quite the fire. How long did that go on? What was your term memory of that
experience there?
LP: Oh, it must have been that at least six hours and I know there was a crew that stated during
the night because it was you know, it would flash up a little bit just to maintain it, but I didn't I
didn't help. That was done they when the building finally collapsed and everything, everything
was gone anyways. It was shortly after that that I got on the fire department.
EG: Okay. That was your baptism by fire.
�LP: Right and I spent forty-some years the on fire department. okay. Between Saugatuck,
between Douglas and then when Douglas went to Saugatuck. John Black was the Chief and I
was the Assistant Chief.
EG: Yeah. Are there other big event that you remember responding to this is part of that.
LP: Oh yeah, the Tara when it burned, right next door. That was a a big fire. Yeah, there was
a couple hotels in Saugatuck that burned. Can't remember the names of them.... Mount Baldhead
Hotel, where Ship and Shore is. That burned. I can't remember the other one was in the middle,
but it was another hotel that burned to the White... The Whitehouse, I think it's called but it was
Casablanca, and blanca is Spanish for white.
EG: Right yeah, yeah. Very good. So, and then, kinda shifting back to work at the Harris Pie
Factory. Tell me about your work there in the later years, jumping forward a little bit. And, I'm
guessing, retirement?
LP: Well yeah, when Food closed finally. I went to Saugatuck and worked and drove a lift truck,
and then I got involved in maintenance. Worked my way up through there. Went to several
schools. Got knowledge of refrigeration and electrical.
EG: Okay. The whole works.
LP: So then, I got the opportunity to be head of maintenance and chief engineer for the whole
plant and anything involved.
35:13
LP: Then, well, we went through some bad times there, too. When Harris sold the business, he
sold it to Mrs. Smith Pie Company. I don't know if you've ever heard of Mrs. Smith, but they're
out east, out in Pennsylvania.
EG: Yeah.
LP: It got caught in an anti-trust suit.
EG: Okay.
MS: Oh.
�EG: What year was this?
LP: And it was that way for two years, then two guys bought it. Frank Roca and I can't
remember the name of the other, the guy’s name but they were there for the money because all
the money that had made it went into the bank in a lump sum and they paid so much for the plant
on took the money.
EG: Got you. About what year was this... Did Harris sell the plant and then the ...
LP: I think it was around… [Mutters] I want to say it was in the seventies.
EG: Okay.
LP: If I start talking about another one, I'll probably remember when the date was. But, they had
it for two years. And, then it went. They were having trough financial and a company
in Chicago took us over and they finished it up in about a year and a half or so. It had right
around 78 when it all started going bad because at '82 it was closed and two of us were retained
by the bank to keep it, so nobody would mess with it. In '82 Mrs.... or Rich Products wanted to
buy all the equipment and they came there, and they were looking at. They wanted all the
equipment and they asked me if I stay there to help him unload it and I says, "No, when that
happens, I'll be gone." They just, then they decided to buy the whole plant.
EG: Okay.
LP: When the meantime, Chef Pierre was after me to go work for them in Traverse City.
I kind of held them off because Rich Products and them both gave me an offer on the same day. I
went up there and they showed houses and everything else for us to move there.
EG: It's good to be in demand.
[All Laugh]
LP: Yeah, it was. Worked out where they both made me the same. nearly the same offer.
okay and I didn't have to move and start paying for another house. [Chuckles] So, I just
stayed, yeah. Yeah, that was in 1982, and I was assistant manager with a fellow from
Winchester, Virginia. and then he got called to another plant in Appleton and they made me
general manager. I did that for twelve years. then they got so busy that they didn't want to build
any more in the town. The town really wasn't real good favor about adding more industrial area
to it because it's a resort town, so.
�EG: Right. In this specific location, probably, too.
LP: Right.
EG: It's right there, right on your way in and out of town.
LP: Right, yep. So, they just turned it over to Sarah Lee, the business and then we shut the whole
plant down and stripped it I'm trying to remember the fellows that bought it. Anyway, the Fruit
Exchange. The office building used to be the old Saugatuck Fruit Exchange, the one on the south
side of Culvers Street, where it's a park now.
EG: Yeah.
LP: That had I big building in there. It might be one of those pictures in there of that, I don't
know.
EG: Okay, we will have to look. So, this would have been the early 1990s?
LP: No, it was in 1998, when that happened.
EG: Okay.
LP: That's when we closed it, when we were done with it.
EG: Got you.
LP: And then, I worked for Rich Products, going around to different plants, helping them on
different items and I did that for two years and then a friend of mine. I went to work for him in
Grand Rapids for two years and retired.
40:01
LP: Excuse me a minute, I don't...
EG: No, that's okay.
LP: It was the wife. My daughter and all of them are in Hawaii.
EG: Very nice.
�MS: A good place to be.
LP: I don't know why you'd travel anywhere else when right here, you've got everything you
need here, beach wise.
EG: Changes that you've of kind of, reflecting over changes seen you in Saugatuck and
Douglas? What are some things that have changed the most from your childhood to now?
LP: Well, we used to…. The Butler, we went there last night. We still do, but you don't know
anybody any more in there. Used to be our town, you know, and now it's the younger, a different
group that is in there.
And we belong to the Singapore Yacht Club, because we were there for 12 years with a boat, and
then we bought a motor home and did that for about ten years and now we got a fifth-wheel that
we bought, and sat a lot in Florida, and we go down there in winter.
MS: Escape some of the cold.
LP: For a while. Escape some of the cold.
EG: How long do you go down there?
LP: For three months three and a half.
EG: Other changes that you've seen for the good or for the bad?
LP: I think everything is more or less been for the good. I'm not so fond of the highway out here.
EG: More and more traffic.
LP: More and more traffic, yeah. It's not made where. I mean you pull of of Douglas and you
almost swiped my car and it's getting there for a left and turn and if a truck comes, they almost
have to go over to that. And then, you see the bicycles riding down the highway.
EG: Yeah. Quite the mix.
LP: Yeah.
[All Laugh]
�LP: That was the only place where it was wide enough where they didn't have to use the
highway really if they didn't need to. So, I... well… maybe they say it helps Douglas. I don't
know if it does or doesn't, but it's there.
EG: Way too soon to tell.
LP: Yeah.
EG: Looking ahead, kind of thinking about you know, this interview will be saved for a long
time. So, when someone listens to this tape fifty years from now, imagine that, what would you
like to know about your life and the community right now?
LP: I enjoyed both communities.
EG: Of Saugatuck and Douglas.
LP: [Laughs] Of Saugatuck and Douglas, but I'm still partial to Douglas. [Laughs] No, I think
it's a great area really.
EG: In particular things you described for some future listeners that we don't know who that
moment might be like?
LP: Yeah, would be interested in another fifty years. Didn't change much over in the last fifty
really. I mean the buildings got renewed or something like that you know.
EG: It's still recognizable place from your child as a resort community a small town small.
LP: Yeah, small town, and you know, yeah.
EG: Any advice for a young person that might listen to this tape?
LP: I think it's more of a retirement area, as to find a job in town and live here is kind of tough
now.
EG: Yeah.
LP: When we were younger it wasn't. I mean, we had grocery stores, so you were here all the
time. Well, they still have the grocery store. More work.
EG: More year-round work.
�LP: Yeah, more year-round work. More diversity of work. It's kind of nice for the younger
people. They've got a lot of different places that they can work. My daughter she works is
waitress at The Butler. I think she's the oldest one her been there the longest. Not the oldest but
been there the longest.
EG: Very good.
LP: Fifty years, that's an interesting, I've got to do some more thinking on that one, you know.
EG: Right.
LP: I don't know much more can it change.
MS: Yeah.
44:59
EG: Tough to say. I guess another way to look at is what you imagined your life would be like,
when you're in the school building, looking forward imagining fifty years down the road Is
Saugatuck and Douglas pretty much how you expected?
LP: Course it changes.
[Phone Rings]
EG: You're in demand.
MS: That's a fun tune.
LP: Somebody trying to save interest on your credit card. I don't know if you get those calls.
EG: Yeah, we do. [All Chuckle]
LP: It drives me nuts. Where were we? [All Laugh]
EG: I guess another way to say it did you imagine when you were a kid that you would stay here
in Douglas?
�LP: Yeah, I kind of did, because there was always work and it was busy, you know. Of course,
we had the company here so that employed quite a few people, really.
EG: Right, for sure. Any other questions that you have on your mind there, Megan?
LP: No, not really. Not at the moment.
EG: Anything else we didn't ask about that you want to share?
LP: Not really. Other than food industries, there was the Morgan Ice Company. It was bought,
but you probably know that.
LP: In that hall, we used to play basketball over there when we were here in school. It used to be
that the Douglas ACs owned it. I don't know what it was originally made for. I never inquired.
EG: I don't know off-hand myself.
LP: Somebody said it was a church at some time.
EG: Yeah, I think that's accurate.
MS: Yeah. The Library? Yeah, I think it was a church, and then....
LP: I don't ever remember it being as a church when I was going to school here. right. I know
the athletic office was active there. Yeah, they had all their weightlifting and all that stuff in the
basement. That was quite popular back then, too, with baseball teams Fast pitch for men. That's
kind of disappeared now. But, a lot of the guys here played it. I didn't, I didn't care for softball.
The library tore down the house we lived in for two years right after we were married.
[All Chuckle]
EG: Bit of a loss.
LP: A bit of a loss, yeah. Some things have come and gone. But the town is still advancing,
though. Some beautiful homes go up. Lake Shore, there are some nice ones out there. [Chuckles]
It is a retirement area, really, when you stop and look at it. Other than what kind of labor you call
it that work for the waitresses, the stores.
EG: The service industry.
�LP: Yeah, service. That's what I'm trying to think of, service industry. There are no major
companies around, like there used to be so. Holland is a place where you go to work.
EG: Oh, very good. Unless we have any other questions or comments, I'm going to thank you.
Thank you so much for your time.
LP: Thank you for having me.
EG: For sharing your memories here.
LP: I wish I could remember more. I'll probably think about a bunch of them.
EG: We can always do a part two. If you think of some good stories, let us know.
LP: If there's something you need.
MS: We can always come back.
LP: Well, I was on the fire department so that was always involved. Then, I was on the city
board here. Did that. It was active, it was the job that held me here, so I stayed.
EG: And it’s a long continuity, it sounds like. You've had a long time of being here to
understand how things work.
LP: What doesn't work.
EG: What doesn't work, yeah.
LP: Yeah, all towns have the same problems. I think. Roads and everything else.
EG: Well, very good.
LP: I enjoyed the area. I love the area.
EG: Very good. We appreciate you sharing all that of and with that. I'm going go ahead and I'll
stop the recording here, and this concludes our interview today. Thank you.
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
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1910s-2010s
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Various
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
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Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
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Text
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English
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2018
Oral History
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DC-07_SD-PhillipsL_2018-07-21
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Philips, Larry
Date
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2018-07-21
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Larry Philips (interview transcript) 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Larry Phillips recounts his time in Saugatuck and Douglas, where he grew up. In this interview, he discusses working several jobs, including his work at the Lloyd J. Harris Pie Company. He also discusses his time as a firefighter and provides a first-hand account of the Big Pavilion fire.
Contributor
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Gollanek, Eric (interviewer)
Stevens, Megan (interviewer)
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Motorcycle gangs
Automobiles
Oral history
Audio recordings
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Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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audio/mp3
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78f1628354a0d42e3b152c627fbbcbf8.MP3
d6b6654056dd5b4a6614aa37f303f013
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc761d35851dc0dd6594655daadf5afa.pdf
f35504f0ccfe16a5e4019192491d8877
PDF Text
Text
Dave Karpowicz interviewed by Ken Kutzel and Eric Gollanek
October 1, 2018
KK: This is Ken Kutzel, and I'm here today with Eric Gollaneck. We're interviewing Dave
Karpowicz. at the old schoolhouse up in the art gallery in Douglas, Michigan. It's October 1st,
2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project which is
supported in part by Grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage
program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us today. We're interested to learn more
about your family history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck-Douglas area. Can
you please tell your full name and spell it?
DK: Dave Karpowicz. K A R P as in Peter O W I C like in cat. Z like in zebra.
KK: Thank you. What can you tell us about where you grew up?
DK: I actually grew up in Chicago, right by Midway Airport. I was four blocks away from
Midway Airport in a little subdivision called Cleary.
KK: Okay, so how did you end up-? What are some of the most vivid memories of your
childhood?
DK: Oh, I think where you're interested in is how I ended up at the seminary that was part of the
Phelp's Mansion. Okay. I belong to a Parish called Saint Rita, and at that time, a recruiter from
the Augustian order, Father Dudley Day, came around and started talking to the kids, especially
alter boys, seeing if they wanted to pursue a possible life in the priesthood and I was recruited
and decided to give it a shot.
KK: And can you kind of put that in a time frame?
DK: We're talking.. I was my high school class with the class of seventy. So I was recruited in
the fall. Well, it would have been before school let out, so it would have been June-ish of 66. My
first year there was in 66. okay. September of 66.
KK: So, you can continue your story now.
DK: Okay.
KK: Sorry, I wanted to kind of clarify that.
DK: So, I came out with my family. they drove me out, dropped me off and life as a seminarian
began. For me, it was a new start. It was like I was only coming out of eighth grade, so there's
not a whole lot to start from, but it was time that time that I got to put all of that history behind
and start fresh in the new environment that was different for everybody going through it at the
same time. I was some I think you might wanna know.
�Back that time, the Phelps Mansion was used as a convent for Spanish nuns. I believe that the
people, the nuns that cooked for us were Spanish nuns, and I think they lived in there. But, I
think there was also a cloistered sect of nuns that lived in there. As you look from what is now
the Phelps Mansion across that field, that was the athletic field and you'd be looking right at the
seminary at the front. The seminary ran north to south three-story building cinder-black building.
The far-left side as you're looking from Phelps Mansion was where the refractory was at. A lot of
a lot of priest came into the seminary environment to retire. So, there's a lot of old folks there and
then after the Refractory, there's this long a row of buildings. Again, it was three stories. As you
walk down the hallway from the re- from where the priests were at, across you had dorms. First
of all, you- you have a refractory, beautiful windows overlooked which would be the back side
which would be with the Frisbee golf is at now. The early tees of the Frisbee golf. For those
folks who walk the property now the seminary is pretty much where the bicycle track.
Okay. It was up on that ridge. if you walked there, you can see bits and pieces of the tile that was
destroyed when the seminary got destroyed.
5:04
DK: I believe that I was in the second year that that particular building was there. It wasn't much
longer than that. I don't think that it was the third year, I think that it was the second year that it
existed, and as you walk down that hallway in the main - you- the Refractory had beautiful
windows that would have looked out to the West. Coming down the hallway, you would have at
dorms. which would be like finger finger appendages off the left-hand side. The right-hand side
was all the classrooms in the middle of the building. There was a library and the chapel was right
across from the library continuing down two more sets of of dorms here in the classrooms on the
right-hand side. The gym was in the back end.
KK: Oh, okay.
DK: I know that a lot of the kids who played basketball in Saugatuck played in the in that gym.
we played them several times and they just came in practice every now and then. The gym was
kind of a crappy gym. It had tile floors. So, it was slippery all the time. Let's see, what else do I
have to tell you. The property was different than it is now. when you when you came in to the
road. that led that leads to the Phelps mansion there's tennis courts in the right hand side. You see
those tennis courts? Well opposite of that that right on the road, there were barricades in there.
So, Phelps was considered to be… oh, I can't think a of word. but he was a collector of animals.
That pond that was in there used to have alligators in that pond there were two barricades.
As you take the road bends to the right a little bit. Well, if you went to the left over there and
went up that hill, he tried to do the perpetual motion machine up on top of that hill which is kind
of an interesting thing.
KK: M-hm.
DK: There used to be some real nice hikes up in there. when I was growing up. what else can I
tell you all? Okay. As you were - if you walking now and you decided to go into the Saugatuck
State Park and you take the road to your right, it kind of bends to the left heads out to the right
�some more. It passes a wet, a wet area over there. That used to be called the Swamp and that's
where ice-skating... We spent most of the winter cleaning off the brush, you know.
KK: Sure.
DK: And cutting down weeds and stuff and then it would freeze and you would play and they
would dig in few a holes in the ice and keep pouring water on there, but that's where the hockey
was played. From the Phelps Mansion, there's a hill that to the right.
If you’re looking at the mansion from the seminary the hill on the left-hand side. I kinda get lost
in the directions there but the other side of that hill, there was a big bar, a huge barn, and an open
field. They used to be called the Nun's Field. There's another little football area, that's where they
play softball and stuff. But, the barn was two-story barn, and it's claim to fame was that every
Halloween the senior class put on what they call Guadeamas, or a play. Let us rejoice, the Latin
for "Let us Rejoice" and it was a play and I remember the first year. There I was others again. I
would have been there for six weeks now, or five weeks. We met up there. We walked from the
seminary grounds into the Phelps Mansion and all. And then, we went over that hill into the barn
and the barn had hay bales all over for seating all over. There's people in the rafters and stuff and
I've never seen anything like that before. And, it was a terrific play and most of it was jokes
about the priest and stuff like that, but it was a great experience. It was snowing that day, too.
It was just kinda cold snowing. A snowy Halloween. I remember some, I remember some
yeah. and then, what else can I tell you? From the building, course a lot of athletics were in that
field between the two buildings.
10:00
DK: The back end of it where the dorms protruded out that was kind of a septic system back in
there. But the road… It was called Beach Road now. It's kind of from the Phelps Mansion.
You're looking across. You take that road, first road that's- it would be on your right-hand side.
You walk off and it curves to the right and up this hill. That's where all the tobogganing and
sledding used to be.
KK: Oh, okay.
DK: You used to go over that ridge then you have probably half mile run so the toboggans and
those saucers and stuff and get on top of hill and just kinda slide on down. It was great fun. It
was it was super. Oh, I don't know… What else you guys wanna know? The high school is high
school stuff.
KK: Well, so, did you have any contact with town? Did you go in? Did you hear stuff about it?
You guys were out there.
DK: We did get to go to town, into Saugatuck but I was a fourteen-year-old kid, you know, with
not a lot of money and it wasn't much to do other than go to the drug store. You went up to the
drug store and we have like an hour, hour and a half every week. To be honest with you, I went
once or twice, I got bored. Well, wasn't much to do for me but other guys went every weekend.
So, we went to the drug store, walked up and down, saw the you know saw the gardens and stuff
�and then again hey, where I was at, I would much rather be on the property, exploring, doing
playing ball or something.
KK: You know, you said you played other schools and all that. Did you know go like for sports
did you go to other schools? Tell us a little about that.
DK: Most of the sports were intramural, so you know we just played different teams within the
school Basketball, we did play other schools in basketball. I wasn't on the baseball team, but they
played other schools in baseball too. We didn't have many home games. The gym was small.
You know, they couldn't deal with any sort of crowds whatsoever so but I do know that we
played Saint Joe one time and I do know Saugatuck and I can't remember the others, but they
were from their perspective, it was a gimme game, it was just, yeah let's entertain them because
they were much better than we were.
In … ‘68. Well, ‘67. I can get the years mixed up. My freshman year, went during the basketball
season with and in sixty seven, the team went to the beginning of the state playoffs. We had a
big team. The center was big. The forwards were big. And then, everybody could shoot. I mean it
was it was a good team, but they had no endurance and the end of the three quarters way through
the game, they weren't conditioned to go for a whole game, and ended up losing. The second
year, they worked on conditioning quite a bit but all the talent graduated and that's. You can
never get it all right. that's, that's kinda how that went.
The biggest thing about the sports was probably that the team spirit. We knew we we're gonna
get basically slaughtered out there but those people who went to the games were all wearing
white and black and it would be. The cheerleaders would be going nuts and I mean it would be
all over, doing the best they could do.
EG: Yeah.
KK: Now, you stayed there all year? Or did you go home in the summer?
DK: We went home in the summer. We came in and right after Labor Day and then way they
worked it out is that every month, either your parents came in or we went home. In October, the
parents would come in. That was my mom's favorite time. She would- she would love that drive
as you drive into the seminary because of the trees and stuff. she said it just was outstanding.
November, of course, we go home for Thanksgiving Christmas go home for Thanksgiving. They
came up… I know that parents were here in May, because we went to the Tulip Festival and
I knew it it was on Mother's Day because of that.
14:52
DK: In summer the time we went home. [Chuckles] Back in those days it cost four hundred
dollars a month to go to the Seminary and extra forty bucks to do laundry. So, that was room and
board for four hundred dollars. It was different then.
KK: Yeah. So how big of a class did you have?
�DK: Probably started always fifty-five. Okay, and by the end of the first semester, you were
probably down to forty in the graduating class. My first year the senior class was pretty big.
They probably graduated … maybe thirty? But, I've seen graduating classes as low as twenty.
KK: Did everybody live on campus? Or were there kids that came in from- from elsewhere?
DK: No. To the best of my knowledge, everyone lived right there. Lived right there. That was
part of the experience, you know, the routine, the chapel time and all that, but there may have
been there may have been one or two that just kinda came in from the outside.
KK: So did you have all priests or brothers for teachers? Or how?
DK: Yeah. They were all clergy.
KK: All male?
DK: Hmm?
KK: All male?
DK: Yes.
KK: The reason that I ask that is because you know we're the same age and we started the lay
teachers, even in the Catholic schools back then, so I'm just comparing.
DK: I remember most of them being priests. Were there one or two that weren't, that might have
been. I don't know what they would have taught. I don't know. you know I don't remember ever
going to class with those was a lay person but they may have been.
KK: Did you… Did you ultimately become a brother or whatever?
DK: No, I stayed through my junior year and then left after my junior year, ended up going on.
Kennedy High School in Chicago.
KK: Oh, okay.
DK: That's where I finished up my high school career.
KK: Was it different, going back to a regular public high school?
DK: Because I was a senior, I figured it was a one-year deal. You know, I wasn't gonna make a
lot of long-lasting friendships. I just kinda put in my time. Got through the year and called it
good
and started college.
KK: Have you made any- have you stayed in contact with anybody from the monastery?
�DK: Yeah. Yeah. Several kids in my class. One or two. My turns out that my neighbor from
across the street was a year younger than I was. He went to the seminary also. We're still in
contact.
KK: Okay. So, I know in between you lived in California for a while, didn't you?
DK: Yeah, we did.
KK: What made you come back here? Well, tell us about California, first.
DK: Well, I was trained as an accountant, so I did accounting work and then had an
entrepreneurial bend and Anita was at a nonprofit executive. She ended up in a car wreck. I don't
know what they call it.
AK: Sloshed my brain around is the technical term.
KK: Okay. And by the way, Anita is also here. That's his wife.
DK: So, Anita was looking for something to sell and she thought if she could sell, she could
make a living out of doing that, because the nonprofit work wasn't gonna happen anymore. And,
she came across as product called a Pillow Pet. I don't know if you remember but it's a pillow
that opens up and into a pet.
KK: Okay, yeah, I remember that.
DK: Yeah, you might have. Anyway, we ended up, Anita's family lives in San Luis Obispo
County and we are selling these Pillow Pets at shows and festivals around California. That's were
living at the time and decided that we would decide basically that if people were buying them out
of a booth, they'll buy them out of a store. So, we had the money. Anita found a four hundred
square foot store in downtown San Luis Obispo.
19:54
DK: We started there. In the meantime, the people who run the Pillow Pet business, the creator
of it put on… decided to go into “As Seen on TV” commercials. She bombarded children's
stations with these Pillow Pets, and, all of the sudden, she created a demand where there was no
supply. We were the only one of the only one of the only few suppliers, so we were shipping
Pillow Pets like you wouldn't believe. At one time, we… At one time, we had three stores and
two warehouses.
AK: And an online.
DK: And an online. The online was richer. So that was, we called it riding the wave in. So, we…
we started with, it was a brand-new concept, saw that demand go way high then, once you start
seeing them in Best Buy all the hardware stores in Target, the quality got cheaper because the
owner of the company got pressured to basically license her stuff to somebody else. And all of
�that took place, demand started dropping. We start shutting stores. I went back to accounting for
a while. That's what I did. whenever the entrepreneurial effort has played out, I went back into
accounting.
AK: It was a great ride though.
DK: It was fun.
AK: Oh my god, it was fun. [Laughs]
AK: A heck of a lot of work, but yeah. We picked San Luis Obispo because they have the largest
Farmers Market in the co- in the State of California. It's all year long. Because we had the store
in a certain place, we could already be in this huge farmers market that's a big party. So, we can
just sell it once a week in terms of people from away. It was awesome. That's interesting. It was
is kinda fun.
KK: So, what brought you back to Michigan?
DK: Go ahead.
AK: Jerry Walsh was our realtor in San Luis Obispo. Jerry Walsh and I became friends and she
grew up in this area and so she has a house over here on North Union Street. We came to visit
her last year and we had a great time and then this year. We had a big fire we were are living in
Durango and we ended up coming to visit her because she's kind enough to let us come here.
There was smoke everywhere in Durango and so she talked to us and we had a great time while
visiting, and now we're here. [Laughs] Now, we live here.
KK: Well, welcome!
AK: Thank you.
KK: Welcome. It is interesting. What're you're you know when you came back, because both of
you had lived away, or you probably didn't lived here at all… What were your initial
impressions? Can you, you know, talk about that a little bit, coming back here?
DK: Well, of course I see the world through different eyes. I see how busy it is in the summer. I
see if how much fun people are having at the beach. We walked in. Back in the 70s and 80s, we
walked the Beach Road in the summer, but it was still too cold to get in the water by, you know,
early June late May early June. It was kinda chilly so we never even went swimming there. But,
we've lived in some beautiful resort-type communities. San Luis Obispo was one of them.
Morrow Bay, and Durango is a is a joyous community so we're used to that and were uses to
seasonality of it and love the busyness love to see the stores busy and love the quieter times too.
That's what I notice, the people have a lot of fun down. They were just having a lot of fun
shopping. having coffee eating in the restaurants playing on the beach. It's just... a lot of fun.
�KK: Okay. Do you have any other questions? We're gonna look here.
EG: You can talk a little bit about your time in the seminary here in the school year. What was a
typical day like? Or a typical week like?
DK: Sure. Days started at six o'clock. We were living in the dorm and the dorm is just one.
24:55
DK: It had twenty beds in it, say two sets of five, the way I'm remembering it, it could be be
more than thirty beds. This is a wall separating beds on both sides basically. one door led to the
sink room and the restrooms the other door led to the priest monitor of that dorm.
Days would start at six o'clock, and it depends on what year you're talking about because this is
right after Vatican two, so a lot of changes were happening in the church and the seminary back
in in the very beginning when I was a freshman. I wanna say that we started with mass first
thing, but I could be wrong, but I know do that there was a chapel time in the beginning. Then
we went to the refractory and ate. The refractory had tables of ten people, ten guys mixed
classes. Okay so wasn't like you… you were assigned a table. It wasn't like you in like you go sit
with you but your friends all time. Each table and seniors and stuff, and the way it works is once
Grace was said, somebody from the table went in the kitchen area, and brought the food out for
the table, and breakfast was served that way. Lunch is at noon hour-ish. School in the morning.
Lunch, school till about three o'clock, and then everybody had to leave the building for… I
wanna say an hour or hour and a half between 3:00 and 4:30 sometimes. So, everyone was
forced outside to do something so that's when all the intermural athletics were we're done and all
the hiking around and stuff. We come back in and we shower go back into the chapel. Kind of a
meditation period. The priests would be doing their vespers or whatever they're doing and we
just had quiet time the chapel for a while and then back to the refractory for dinner after dinner.
Mandatory study hall for two hours from like 7:00-7:00 with a fifteen-minute break in there.
Then, after that, you're free for an hour and then back to bed at 10:00, lights out at 10:00. That's
pretty the typical day.
KK: That's pretty tight schedule.
EG: That's a pretty tight schedule.
DK: Pretty tight.
KK: Now, was that five days a week?
DK: The only thing, it was 10-6 at least six days a week. There may have been one day where
was it a little bit longer, at least in the beginning. Yeah. Yeah it seems like it loosened up some
of the priests that were running the shows said, “You know you guys have to be responsible
enough to go to bed when you're tired. So, we're not gonna put on the 10:00 thing anymore, but
we're still getting up at six.” You know, the schedule change a little bit like that. So, whoever
�wasrunning the show kinda set their own rules for what they were what they felt comfortable
with. Yeah. Go ahead.
EG: What was the food like? What were some things that stood out that you remember eating?
Was it good? They had- Was it Spartan? Was it –
DK: So, lunches seemed to be better than dinners and they had some type of a Spanish rice deal
that I've never seen duplicated that was just delicious. Just outstanding. I mean it was a good day
when you got Spanish rice. [Laughs] It was a good day they when had hamburgers too. They
were huge hamburgers and it was just delicious and I can't remember much of the other meals of
course they were. Whatever you ate at dinner time would be in the lunch meal somehow. I mean,
very little waste going. I remember a lot of the food that peanut butter particular came from the
government. I mean [indistinguishable] Looked like a paint can filled of peanut butter with about
an inch and a half of oil in there. So, I remember that the rice came infive gallon or five-pound
things of rice so that was that was kinda how that was.
29:48
DK: What else can I tell you that's kind of fun? Some of the things in the dorm were really pretty
funny. You know that these are all- again, they're in all the same boat. It’s not like there were
mixed classes in the dorm yet all the freshman in the same dorm. One time, there was a whippoor-will in the springtime. Every morning about four o'clock is calling out calling out calling
out. One of the kids just lost it. He ran down that fire escape. "I'm gonna get that damn bird!"
Chased him down, trying to get that whip-poor-will.
The way that thing was laid out was that from the dorm to the fire escape in the back went down
into the locker room for that dorm. So, we basically got two lockers: one in the dorm area and
one down below for the outdoor stuff.
That is Saturday. You might be interested in that. Saturdays were around the house chore days.
Everybody all week long everybody was assigned a task for a month. you know you may have
toilets. You might have sink room. You might have the dorm, you might have a hallway, you
might have a classroom. Where ever it was assigned you had for month. On Saturday, it was
thorough cleaning day, so and so instead of classes after breakfast in the morning, people will go
down into the room where you pick up your mops and you pick up your all that stuff. Buckets
and mops, cleaning utensils and stuff. Go ahead. Then, Saturday afternoon was one of the days
they would head up to Saugatuck. A lot of guys would go on Saturday afternoon up there.
KK: How long was the monastery or the school, how long had it been there when you went
there, and how long did it last after you left?
DK: The best I can figure this out is that they were using the Phelps Mansion. as the seminary
itself. Then, they built the one that I went to the year prior. and that would've been 67 would
have been year two. In 72, they sold the building to the state, which made it a low
some type of a prison.
�KK: It was a prison after. A friend of mine was an auto guard there.
DK: So, you'd know more about that than I would.
KK: Yeah.
DK: They made that into there and what is now the Saugatuck State Park used to be part of the
seminary system. One of the recruiting two tools was four hundred acres. So, we used to take
those saucers and if you didn't go down to Beach Road. You kind of veered off towards the
dunes. Closer to the lake. The goal was to ride that saucer fast enough down those dunes, you'd
hit the last thing, you'd catapult up in the air, and you'd land on the beach. That was the goal.
[laughs]
EG: How often could you do that? When the conditions were right, was that feasible?
DK: It was doable. Trouble is it wasn't fun once you did it. [Laugh] You hit pretty hard coming
down. It was like, man….
EG: I've seen those saucers with the dents in them.
DK: Yes, yes.
EG: And a long walk back.
DK: A long walk back.
But, it was, for those guys who liked speed, it was faster than the Beach Road. But, it was
shorter, much shorter. The ride was 150 ft.
KK: Now, you brought some yearbooks, didn't you?
DK: Yeah, I did.
KK: When you look through, is there anything DK: Well, like I said, there's a lot of high school stuff. Here's another picture of the seminary
from the Phelps Mansion.
KK: See, yeah, that's a much larger building than I expected.
DK: Yeah, right in the middle, right in the middle from this angle here you're looking at the
library and across the from library would be that the Chapel. They had a beautiful - that old folk's
home for those priests was a beautiful facility. As you came in, it was like a rotunda. You come
into the rotunda, you turn to the right, and they had all of these little alcoves, about five of them,
where these older priests would be celebrating mass everyday, just by themselves and a
�server. One of the seminarians would be a server and stuff. The chapels were all mosaic, just
pretty.
34:50
DK: Yeah, I don't know. Like I said, all of this stuff is high school stuff. It's just, things that
happen in every high school that I can tell you stories about. But, I won't. There's nothing
different about it.
Here's another dorm picture.
EG: Okay, yeah.
KK: Oh yeah, that's interesting. Just beds, a series of beds. There you are.
DK: There I am, right there. [All chuckle]
EG: Now, there's students in the seminary from all over Michigan and Illinois, or?
DK: Well, I know there was people from Detroit, Gross Point. I know those people from Flint
were there. a lot of people from Chicago because Duddley Day worked with Saint Rita's Parish
which is where he lived in Saint Rita's which was Augustinian, which was six miles from my
house. Maybe something like that. There's a lot of parishes in there between, so he did all that. I
know that Southern Michigan had some representative. I couldn't tell you exactly where they
came from, but it just depended on how well the recruiter did.
KK: That's really interesting because it's, well there were schools in every other major cities.
You know that the monks or whatever or brothers would run and just kind of interesting. A lot of
sports involvement, obviously.
DK: Yeah well, you had to do something everyday, so intermural football, intermural softball,
intermural basketball. Some volleyball, not all that much.
EG: You made some mention of the Vatican, too the reforms, changes. What sorts of things, I
don't know how to ask this exactly, but what sorts of changes did you see in the Church or in the
school?
DK: This was back when the, we went from the mass where the priest was with his back to you
to looking at you. The Latin went out of the mass. There were major changes in structure. From
our point of view every class they had of us will I believe that they were in their second semester
of freshman year. Early as the sophomore, they got a casik or a black garb with a hood on it
and a black belt. When we were ready to do that, they decided they didn't wanna give us casiks.
we got a green jacket. You know but these guys, I mean they sleep late and they not even get
dressed, they'd just put the casik on, put the cincher on, and go down. I mean we to had do all
this other stuff and those -.
�KK: That's interesting. You didn't like that as much?
DK: No.
KK: Yeah, for the robe.
DK: Yeah, exactly right.
EG: Probably for teenagers as well, there's probably a certain coolness.
DK: Oh yeah, yeah.
Let's see some pictures of all those guys you…
KK: Yes, I noticed the casicks right away, and I was wondering. Right before you brought it up,
I noticed the picture.
DK: Yeah.
DK: I know what those were.
DK: All those guys were ahead of us.
KK: Did a lot of them become monks or priests?
DK: I would imagine that some classes had none that made it all the way through. Some classes
had one or two. I think our class wanna say that three became ordained One became an
Augustinian who ran the show here. At least two others became ordained from a different
organization. That's my recollection.
KK: That's very interesting.
DK: One of the guys that came through the the system was younger than me became a bishop. I
think. I wanna say his name is Dewicki. I'm not sure. It could be that I could get him mixed up
with somebody else.
KK: Yeah.
DK: Anyways, he's a Bishop, and the Order is very proud of that happening.
EG: Oh, sure.
KK: Oh, and you know, it's kind of funny, because when you hear people talking about the
Phelps Mansion, you hear about it being the prison and all that, but and you hear a little about it
being a monastery, but you never that it was a big school. You know what I mean? So, my
�thought was, monastery means they were just in the mansion. No, no. But obviously that was
quite a campus.
39:57
DK: There's probably, if you figure, maybe 120 altogether. So, it was pretty good, but one of the
memories is that when Christmas time we had to put on some sort of - it was our turn to put on
the play at Christmas time and we wanted to honor the Spanish nuns that did the cooking. The
cloister was full of Spanish and across the way. So, we wanted them to teach us this Christmas
song. You know, in Spanish and stuff, so we went and walked over there. You couldn’t see them.
They had on.... a screen between.
UNKNOWN: Is it, are you doing the oral history?
KK: Yes, give us a little right, okay.
DK: So, anyway they had the screen between us so I never did see what they looked like. It was
kind of interesting they're extremely friendly and did a nice job. At least, we thought it was a
nice job. [Laughs] What would we know? It was kinda fun.
KK: I think that it's kind of interesting that that all existed on one campus, too.
DK: For sure.
EG: Yeah, fascinating, interesting too. It sounds like you were, not surprisingly, kind of set off
from you know, you were there in some sort of isolation.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Sure. Lots of stuff going on in the late 1960s in Saugatuck and elsewhere. Music, popular
culture, news. Was there a lot of discussion about that?
DK: Some.
EG: Were you really kind of isolated from what was going on?
DK: It was interesting that especially on Saturday, they used to play music through the loud
speaker on Saturday, but all the music was approved by a priest.
KK: Yeah, okay.
DK: It wasn't like …
EG: They wouldn't play The Doors necessarily.
�DK: No, not necessarily. A lot of Mamas and The Papas, you know, stuff like that. One of the
guys that joined the seminary, not as a freshman, I think he joined as a junior, or something. He
was a very talented guitar player and he brought influence, he brought a guitar influence into the
mass. this is back when things were starting to get lax. One of the rooms was almost like a coffee
shop where this guy could sit and play. And people could hang out there. For as long as they
wanted to do that, but he was a he brought different music into the mass like "Tell Me Why
You're Crying, My Son." I don't know if you guys remember that?
KK: I'd have to hear more of it.
DK: [Sings lyrics to "Tell Me Why You're Crying, My Son"]
KK: Yeah, it's ringing a bell.
DK: [Continues to sing] "... through your loving eyes. take my hand my son. All be done be
done your when day is done." So anyways, he brought that in. He brought a lot of
Bob...Bob's...not Bob Seiger....
KK: Dylan?
DK: Yes. He brought Dylan's stuff into the service. It was a time of change. When I was there,
they had three different people running the show. It went from very conservative, very more
rigid to more lax than I was comfortable with. Just like [indistinguishable] That's just how it
went. It was just part of the times part of the people that were involved. It was interesting
experience. I'm really glad that I did it, you know? I had a lot of fun, a lot of fun.
EG: That's wonderful.
KK: We're glad you did too, because you're the only person that I've talked with that has
mentioned even that experience. And again, even when a person lives here quite a while, there
are things by the end that you don't know about. There really are. You guys never went to
Holland, either, or did you?
DK: When I was a junior we had this kid that was in my class was very creative. You know,
we're trying to raise money and this is one little room inside the school in the basement that
wasn't used for anything.
45:00
DK: It had the trophy case, which of course had no trophies in it. [Chuckles]
EG: That's what they were praying for. [Laughs]
DK: That was it! Some days, it was for the trophy case. Anyway, we decided as a class. This
was the kid's idea to create a bakery. Now, here you've got a population of people. Every one of
have birthdays at that table and stuff. Everybody wants to treat their table for whatever. We
�opened up a bakery and our supply came from Holland. One of the priests went into Holland
every day, bought you know, discounted bakery goods because we're buying in quantity. He
came back in, we'd sell these things, and man we were making money. We're making a lot of
money. Just selling these pies and cakes and dinner rolls. You know sweet rolls.
It gets a little interesting because twice we were robbed. Alright. It becomes very interesting in
terms of what forces would force force a kid to rob the Bakery. Well, you know, that's life. We're
assuming it was a kid. We're assuming it wasn't a priest, but there's nothing that said it couldn't
have been.
KK: Right.
DK: No one ever knew who did it. No one, no one pursued no one investigated. Just sort of
sucked it up. So, that was an interesting thing. So, you know.
KK: It's interesting what. When you sold the goods, did you have to turn the money in? What
was the story there?
DK: We were saving it for something. I can't remember what. I know that we, we made the
money I thought it was all going to go to a charity or something, a party or whatnot. I don't, I
don't remember what. You know was there no distribution between the Juniors saying that you
were going to get your piece of the pie. That was not the discussion. It was all going to be used
for something. It was interesting.
KK: Yeah, that's interesting. If that's a question with one of our, another interviews, were there
any shenanigans or trouble that people got into? Run ins with getting into detention? Those kinds
of things?
DK: Oh, yeah. They called it Jug, for whatever reason I don't know. But when you misbehaved
you had to spend time doing stuff sitting in the room or whatever. I remember one time I came
out of that locker room and in in the basement, and I just this was a Saturday morning and we
just finished cleaning and we're gonna go do something that was exciting. I ran to the doors,
smacked right into the biology teacher. That was a joke.
[All Laugh]
DK: So, that happens. So, yeah, kids would misbehave, and they would go into the Jug and stuff.
That combination from a priest's perspective is very interesting who all was there, because
you've got your retired folks, you got the priests that wanted to be there, you, you know, the
younger ones that wanted to influence the seminarians and stuff. You got priests that were
basically on their way out of the priesthood, that they were using this as a reflection period of
time to see.
Like you said, it's isolated, give some time to rethink things
�There was one priest there. that probably got there because of sexual tendencies. Misbehavior,
maybe, I don't know, but he was isolated out into that... Well... that you know of [laughs]. One
that I know of, that's exactly right. He never did anything in the seminary that I know, but
everybody was aware and cautious of the whole things but... Some people struggle. you know
people struggle with whatever environment that they're in.
KK: Okay, well, I really have no other questions, I don't think.
DK: Okay.
KK: Is there anything that you wanted to ask us?
50:00
DK: No, not really.
KK: Okay.
DK: Like I said, thank you guys for the opportunity to share.
KK: We're glad to get this on tape, we really are.
EG: Oh, yeah, that was fascinating. One other question that I'll ask you which is a wrap up
question that I really like is. We'll be thinking about who we see in these interviews for a long
time. So, imagine someone's listening to this fifty years from now or more from now. What
would you like them most to know about your life? Or about the community here?
DK: It was an outstanding opportunity. It was a lot of fun, you know, being… going in with the
attitude that I'm going to start all over again make whatever I wanted to make out of this happen
with the environment with a bunch of guys was a lot of fun. It did... I didn't have the… the same
high school experiences that most kids have. So, in terms of dating all of that is a delay in all of
that happening but I wouldn't have passed it up. It was a good thing. It was good while I was
there, and it was good when it was time to leaves.
KK: So okay. thank you very much. This concludes the interview.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
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Various
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
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Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
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Image
Text
Language
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English
Date
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2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-07_SD-KarpowiczD-20181001
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Karpowicz, Dave
Date
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2018-10-01
Title
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Dave Karpowicz (audio interview and transcript) 2018
Description
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Dave Karpowicz discusses his time at the Phelps Mansion and his experiences being a high school seminarian. He also discusses his time outside of Saugatuck-Douglas, as well as what brought him back to the region.
Contributor
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Kutzel, Ken (interviewer)
Gollanek, Eric (interviewer)
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Theological seminaries
Outdoor recreation
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
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Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Format
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Sound
Text
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7cd25623c8799b02d7ca6a26c2d915ad.mp3
d0bcbe758d3b279d8925e1cd3919dfda
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8bc61e0899185a6771a7992d8d9bc30a.pdf
bf59b1f90831e13949b0b58123120150
PDF Text
Text
Tom Fosdick interviewed by Nathan Nietering and Eric Gollanek
June 2, 2018
NN: This is Nathan Neetering, and I’m here today with Eric Golloneck, and we are both interviewing
Charles Thomas Fosdick. This is part two of an interview that got cut off at the beginning. Tom, can
you state your full name and the one you go by for me one more time?
TF: Okay. Full name, Charles Thomas Fosdick. Go by Tom.
NN: All right. And we are recording today at the Old Schoolhouse in Douglas, Michigan. It's June
2nd, 2018. And we're going to pick up where we left off as best as we can.
EG: We were in the break. We were talking a little bit about time in school and playing sports. You
were saying that you played quite a few sports.
TF: Yep.
EG: in Saugatuck.
TF: Well, we were talking about Ms. Haddoway, and how she was with the school all the way until it
consolidated with Saugatuck and that... I was the last eighth grade class to graduate from the
Douglas School after that. And seventh and eighth grade went over to Saugatuck and there was
that's where I went to high school for four years and I played sports. The four sports that I played
were football for a couple of years, basketball a couple of years, and then golf and baseball mostly
the rest of the time. So. But we played ball. Innocent. This has nothing to do with the school but
growing up in Douglas, that was what we did, us boys. We played baseball. We played something,
but baseball was the thing that we played the most.
TF: Friend of mine lived right across from where the school is now, and there was a vacant lot right
next door. And once actually there were two vacant lots, one on one side they owned. The other one
was for sale. And we played baseball in the one that was for sale and we played football in the one
that they owned. [Chuckles]
TF: But we would play a lot of baseball just down at the park downtown because that's been there
forever, as far as I know.
NN: Today, that's Barry Fields, right?
TF: Yeah.
NN: Yeah. Do you recall any specific coaches that you had when you were at the high school who
made any impressionable memories on you?
TF: The coaches that I had started out with, Mr. Winter and Jerry Kelly was another one of the
coaches. And Joe Domitrz.
�NN: Can you spell... Do you remember how to spell his name?
TF: Well, that's not spelled the way…
NN: That's why I ask.
TF: I remember the first year he taught there. He wrote his name on the board and he told us all,
“Don't even try to pronounce it just. This is how you say it. Just say it like this.”
TF: But it was DOM I T R Z.
NN: That's not how I would have expected it either. [Laugh]
TF: Anyway, that was... And let's see who else did I have? Yeah, that was... Those were the main ones.
Mr. Handford was the golf coach until my senior year, and then Mr. Morris was. But Jerry Kelly
coached basketball and baseball. So, I had him for baseball the whole time.
NN: Do you recall were there any championship years in any of those sports?
TF: Well, it's...
NN: How'd the team do?
TF: Some well, but it's not the same as what it is not. They didn't have playoffs at the end of the
season, other than basketball. But the football when you were season was done, that was it. You were
done. In golf, we had some pretty good teams and we would play in the state, the regional things
and stuff like that. But as far as baseball went, you when your season was done, that was done. There
was no playoffs like what they've got going on now. So…
TF: We had one really good pitcher when I was playing, and his name was Frank Kelly. I think he's still
around here somewhere. I don't know. I see him occasionally, but just it was fun. We just played ball.
That was what we did. Now all kids are on video games instead of outside playing.
EG: I'm interested in maybe just step back a second. Your family's history here, were they from…
longtime residents?
5:05
TF: My, mother. Her family house was just across Bluestar. I don't even know what that... there used
to be a Standard Gas Station or the Shell. There's a Shell, and then across to the south, there was a
Standard Gas Station, and their house was the next block behind that. And they pretty much the
family all pretty much owned that entire block. Mostly because there was the house and then the
whole section to the north of the house was a garden. So, we got a lot of vegetables out of that
garden, strawberries. Yeah. She grew up there and my dad grew up in Fennville.
EG: Okay.
�TF: And where he grew up is still in the family there. It's a Centennial Farm on 58th Street. So, and I've
got a cousin that lives there now.
NN: So, what was your mother's maiden name?
TF: Monique.
NN: Monique.
TF: M O N I Q U E.
EG: Do you remember stories of how they ended up here in this region there or in Michigan?
TF: I don't know... The Monique family, I don't know that much about, but the Fosdick family,
I've got cousins that have done research on heritage and stuff, and they've traced it all the way back
to the origin of the name.
NN: Okay.
TF: So, they started out in Massachusetts, they were part of the pilgrims that came over and then
they worked their way west. And after the Civil War, then my great grandfather moved to Fennville,
moved, got to Fennville, and they've been there ever since.
EG: Centennial Farm.
NN: That's fascinating.
NN: You mentioned the Douglas Athletic Club across the street from the Douglas Union School
Building. Were there any other places or institutions that you remember that may, you know, were
important when you were growing up in the Saugatuck Douglas area?
TF: Well, nothing that we were part of. The Masonic Hall which was pretty much next door. Three
houses, three buildings down. That was about it wasn't much of anything, really. Just a small town,
grocery store down by the river close to the river there. It burned a few years ago. But it wasn't a
grocery store then anymore, I don't think. Not after they built what used to be Taft's.
NN: There are a lot of people who still call a Taft's.
TF: Probably, probably. Yes. But the grocery store that you're recalling was down Center Street
towards Wayne's Bayou.
NN: Right. Van Sickels.
TF: Yeah.
�EG: Down that river, one question we had about art schools in Saugatuck, Douglas. Remember
anything about Greeson family and their school building that was down there, the art artists group?
TF: Not a whole lot, wasn't really much in the arts. [Laughs] Oxbow has been out there forever. So,
everybody knew about that. But as far as any other arts place, the town of Douglas has changed a lot
from when I grew up. There wasn't any of the arts and crafts stores that are down there now. There
was a hardware store that isn't there.
Yeah.
TF: The Catholic school used to be down there... Tyler's drug store was down there. And that's where
the bus stopped, Greyhound. And The Tara was where the condos are now.
NN: On the Bluestar Highway, correct?
TF: Yep.
NN: What did you do when you were growing up in the summer when school was not in session?
10:01
TF: We played ball.
NN: You played all the time?
TF: [Laugh] Just about every day.
NN: OK.
TF: We played ball.
NN: Did you have any summer jobs as you were getting older?
TF: We used to pick cherries in the summer. My dad had a friend that had a cherry orchard, sour
cherries, and we'd go pick there. Other than that, not really. I pretty much played ball and my dad
didn't tell me, make me have to go do something that would take away from that. It didn't. It never
really amounted to anything.
TF: But because it was like I say, things are a little different back in those days. When I got out of
high school and Vietnam was going on, so college, you'd better have a specific well-intentioned
major, otherwise you were getting drafted and you were going. And so, there wasn't… And he told
me I would not like the Army. So, I went to Navy. [Laughs]
EG: Had he served? He served in the Army?
�TF: My dad? Yeah. He was in the South Pacific in World War II.
EG: Okay.
TF: And. They've written books about his outfit, Ghosts Among Boys. So it's... Yeah. Some of the
stories that he told about that. He told me I wouldn't like it. [All Laugh]
NN: So, you grew up in Douglas, you went to school in Douglas until you went to Saugatuck to go to
high school.
TF: High school.
NN: As someone growing up in Douglas, did you go to Saugatuck for any other reason besides high
school? Did you have a reason to go to that side of the bridge?
TF: Uh, just for summer sports when I got older, that was all. We didn't... Again, things were a little
different in those days. When people would say, you would say you were traveling somewhere and
people would ask, "Well, where do you live?"
TF: And we'd say, Douglas. "Oh, where's that?"
TF: And we'd tell them and they'd say, "Oh, right next to Saugatuck."
TF: That's on the other side of the river. And we're not the same. So, and I and I remember when I
was I think I was in high school and they were talking about consolidating Saugatuck schools with
the Fennville School system. And everybody knew that that was never gonna happen because the
rivalry between the two town, it just wasn't going to... You weren't going to get enough votes to get
that to pass. [Chuckles] Everybody one had their identity, which now, you know, they consolidated
the fire stations and stuff, then the police, and now that's gone. But. Back when I was growing up,
there was never even an option. You had your own identity. You were Douglas and they were
Saugatuck.
NN: OK. So, was there anything specific about Douglass's identity that made it especially unique,
different? The best at something, the you know home of something?
TF: You know, it was quieter. Saugatuck was the party town in those days.
TF: When I was a senior in high school, we took a senior class trip to Mackinac Island, we went took
the bus over to Detroit and got on to South American. Heard about that ship?
NN: The steamship, yep.
TF: And took the South America up to Mackinac Island, spent the day there and then took the ship
back to Detroit and came back. And we happened to come back on Memorial Weekend. At first, they
weren't even allow the busses into town because there was no place. The streets were so packed with
�cars and people that they didn't think there would even be able to get to the school. And the school
wasn't where it is now. So what they finally figured out a way to get them in and then they said, well,
no cell phones or anything. “Your parents aren't going to be able to pick you up. You're going to
have to walk to the edge of town if you don't live in the city, in Saugatuck.”
TF: And that's what happened. Nobody could get in because it was just packed with people.
14:58
NN: Do you have a feel for who those people were, where they were coming from?
TF: Chicago, mainly, Detroit, St. Louis, the two main places that people would come from when I was
growing up here, St. Louis and Chicago. There was a place out on the Lake Shore. There was all St.
Louis people. They had their own little community out there. But they are those are the two main
places.
NN: And everybody was in town for Memorial Day weekend. [Chuckles]
TF: Yep, there was there was big party. Yeah. Just different things have changed over the years. It's
more of a family friendly type of place now than what it was then. But they used to have used to the
state police used to bring in a trailer and park it next to the Standard Oil Gas Station and they would
run a special unit out of there on all the big weekends, Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day,
because it would get very... riotous, I guess you could say.
NN: Did any of the locals ever really participate in those sort of activities or was it...?
TF: Yeah. Oh yeah. [Laughs]
NN: Were you one of those participants, or did you…?
TF: No, I tried to stay out of there. Okay. Maybe, you know, you walk through or try to drive through,
if you could. I used to go to the fireworks on Venetian night. But we could see them from our
backyard. So, it didn't really matter a whole lot.
NN: All right. So, keeping in mind that this recording that we're doing today will be saved for a long
time. There may be someone here listening to this in 50 years from now, what would you want them
to know about your life in the community even right now?
TF: Well, I'm not part of the community anymore, other than just coming back down to see how
things are going. One of the things that I guess I've always kind of wondered about is why things...
some of the stuff that they've allowed to do, have been allowed to do. Knowing what I know about
some of the things, that kind of surprises me. There are houses built and a ball field behind the
school now was built on a toxic runoff from a plating company. There's houses right on the top of
this little runoff stream. That I don't I just don't understand how that was allowed, because... But,
nobody thought about it when we went to school there, we used to walk right through the thing.
[Chuckles]
�NN: So that's behind the current Douglas Elementary School?
TF: Yeah. Yeah. And that used to drain down into the gully is what we called it, into a creek that fed
into the Kalamazoo River. But other than that, and we come. My wife and I come down every now
and then and drive through the towns and stop and just look at the shops and stuff.
NN: Do you have any favorite restaurants or current destinations down here?
TF: Oh, the restaurants that are here now, I haven't been in. The restaurant that is on the corner right
across from the ballpark. I don't know the name of it now.
NN: In Douglas?
TF: Yeah. It was just the Douglas Dinette when I grew up.
NN: I think it's called the Everyday People Cafe now, but it had a different name then.
TF: Yeah. Yeah. It was just the Douglas Dinette. And there was one another one that was out by
where that little strip mall is. Was it... I don't even know the name of that. But that was Tiffany's
Restaurant. That's not there anymore. And we used to when I was... My dad was a janitor, and every
Saturday morning when he would get ready to go do something at the school and he'd come and
wake me up, and I would be helping him do stuff at the school. And we'd always take a break at
some point in the morning and we'd go to one of those two places and he'd get coffee and a donut
and I'd get some milk or pop or something and a donut.
20:17
TF: And that was a standard operating procedure type of thing every Saturday morning. So. Yes.
Now, the ones that we go to are in Saugatuck. It's the… we go to The Corner Bar, Wally's,
Pumpernickel's. Those three places are the main ones that we go to.
NN: So just circling back real quick to your father, then become the custodian at the new school and
that opened?
TF: Yes, he did.
NN: Okay.
TF: Him and my uncle. Because my mom didn't drive. So, she would have had to walk up there. So,
then my uncle, Lawrence Monique, and my dad. Because my dad still worked second shift. So, he was
there during the day doing stuff. And then my uncle was there at night. So, it was the same type of
thing. He took care of everything during the day, then he cleaned up at night and on weekends on
Saturday. Then they did the major projects if they needed to strip a floor and re-wax it or something
because it was all tile. And that was done on Saturday. So, and then when they consolidated, then my
�dad was a for a time a part-time custodian over at the Saugatuck School. But then that was just for a
couple of years, and then it stopped.
NN: Do you remember when they opened the new school? You were a student, you were in third
grade, I think.
TF: Yes. Mrs. Lineman.
NN: Okay. Do you have any... I mean, that building is very different from the now the old school.
How did that feel as a student? Was there anything particularly different that you recall from going
to old new building?
TF: We had a gym that we could play on when it was raining and you went into the gym and
played basketball, or... Usually, we would divide it up in half, then the boys were on one half and the
girls were on the other half. So that we didn't have to do. The girls that have to do what we wanted
to do and we didn't have to do what they wanted to do. [Laugh]
TF: But there were different things that happened at that school that were. I don't know if you'd call
them unique, but they were fun at the time. Bill Allen was a newscaster for a TV station in Grand
Rapids and he lived out on the lakeshore. And about one day a week, he would come in at noon.
And we would arrange because the desks weren't permanent in place, they were movable, so we
would form them in the shape of a U. And he would sit he would get the teacher's chair because it
was on wheels and he would we would play chess and he would just play everybody. And he'd just
go from board to board to board to board and just play chess all noon. So that was different.
NN: Were you any good at chess?
TF: No, not particularly, but it was fun. I yeah, I never I didn't really study it or anything. I played it,
but it was. It didn't it wasn't one of those things where I was super competitive and had to win or
anything like that. It was just fun, fun to do.
NN: Sure. Okay. I think we're getting close to wrapping up here. Would you have any advice for a
younger person who might be listening to this interview? Any thoughts?
TF: Well, I just from my childhood and stuff, if it's anything growing up here like it was, then this is a
great place to grow up, it's small. Like I said back when I grew up, just about everybody knew
everybody, and you kind of looked out for each other. I hope that it's the same way now, but I don't
know that for sure. But that would be nice if it would be. So other than that. Yeah. That was... It was a
nice place to grow up.
25:01
NN: Good. Anything else, any other stories or anything that you'd like to share that I got to ask?
�TF: That's the thing. I'll probably think of some on my way home. [Laugh] Yeah, that's there's always
stuff that pops into my head that I talk to people about. Now there's a thing that we do. A bunch of
us guys that graduated from high school in the same general time frame, we get together once a
month for breakfast down here. And, that's always interesting, we rehash all our old memories and
old stuff that we used to do.
TF: One of the things that I do miss that I used to do, you used to spend a lot of time growing up
after school and after sports things. There used to be a place in Saugatuck called the Soda Lounge.
And we used to hang out there a lot. That was... that's not there anymore.
NN: No, but I think we have a portion of the old malt machine has come to us, and it's in our
collection.
TF: Really?
NN: Here at the History Center.
TF: People, people always you know, people talk about the difference in terms from one area of the
country to another where pop or soda. Well, when I was growing up, we'd go to the Soda Lounge,
you got a soda, which was different than pop. So, if you wanted like a Coke or something, that was
pop. But if you wanted a soda, that could be any flavor you wanted it, so... And that they would mix it
right there? They would make it with one of those handle things that looked like a swan's neck, and
you made a soda. So that to me, when people said soda, how are you making a soda?
TF: There's just all this stuff growing up here. There is a softball team that was sponsored by the
Douglas Athletic Club who used to play downtown. Used to go down, watch them, played Little
League Baseball down there. And Ev Thomas used to broadcast. There was a building behind home
plate that they used to put big speakers up on the roof, and he would announce the Little League
Bay games or the softball games. There was always Ev Thomas.
NN: Was he a local?
TF: Yeah, he was a kind of a unique person. He was a real estate salesman. He's been dead for a long
time and he was born on February 29th, so he was one of them guys. It was only four years old or
whatever. [All laugh]
NN: Yep, a leap year baby, huh?
TF: Yeah. So, he always used to say he was one of the youngest captains in the army in World War II.
[Laughs] He wasn't a few number of birthdays. He wasn't very old.
NN: Right. All right. Well, if you think of additional stories, you know where to find us. OK. And at
this moment, Tom, I will thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and your memories with us
and for sharing your time today. This will conclude the interview.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-07_SD-FosdickT_02_2018-06-02
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fosdick, Charles Thomas
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-02
Title
A name given to the resource
Tom Fosdick, part 2 (audio interview and transcript) 2018
Description
An account of the resource
The second part of his interview, Tom Fosdick describes his experiences with the school system and playing sports. He also discusses summer jobs, cross-state school trips, and his family and their role as school janitors. He also explores changes to the region.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nietering, Nathan (interviewer)
Gollanek, Eric (interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
audio/mp3
application/pdf
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Sound
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1dbb661ca4daa308cba5c904ef96b3bc.mp3
602a83006948cb7feaa93353dd0aefb6
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97099fc5544c9b31650eb007e53e1908.pdf
ce5309c965cebd94b193f9cdde641470
PDF Text
Text
Tom Fosdick interviewed by Nathan Nietering and Eric Gollanek
June 2, 2018
NN: All right. So this is Nathan Neetering interviewer, Eric Gollaneck, interviewer and we are here
today with Charles Thomas Fosdick at the Old School House in Douglas, Michigan, on June 2nd,
2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported
in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program.
Thank you for taking the time to speak with us today. We're interested to learn more about your
family history and your experiences in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you please tell me your full
name and how to spell your last name?
TF: A full name is Charles Thomas Fosdick- F O S D I C.K.
NN: And you go by Tom?
TF: I go by Tom.
NN: All right, let's see. Do you use any special accents when spelling or saying your name?
TF: No.
NN: OK. Didn't think so. So, would you like to ask the first question?
EG: Yes. Tell us, you kind of came in to check out the school building. And just interested to hear
more about where you grew up and experiences.
TF: Well. Yeah, I've like I said, I tried to get in here before, I didn't know when it was open for the
public to come in because last I remembered, it was an apartment complex. So, it was private.
NN: The Old Schoolhouse building.
TF: Yeah. Yeah. I grew up right next door. 112 Center Street. And my parents were the custodians in
this school as long as I remember. And, just going to school here for. Kindergarten, I think through
the second grade, I was in third grade at the school after they built that.
NN: What were your parents’ names?
TF: Well. My dad's first name was Charles. But he went by Fuzzy. All right. That was a nickname he
got. I don't know when and. My mom was Josephine.
NN: Okay, and they were both custodians of the school?
TF: Yeah, pretty much they my dad worked second shift, so he was here during the day and then she
would come over and sweep and dump the trash and stuff like that. At night, and we usually came
with her, my two sisters and I.
�NN: Did either of your parents have any other jobs in the community?
TF: I don't think technically they did know no, but my dad... Growing up in Douglas, everybody knew
everybody. So, everybody did whatever, you know. He was on the fire department. He did other stuff,
just around town. So, they were both part of the Douglas Athletic Club, which was where the library
is now. And he was president for a while, and they ran the summer athletic programs and stuff. They
were sponsors for that. So, just that kind of stuff.
NN: So you said you attended kindergarten through second grade in this building, that would have
been in the mid 50s?
TF: Yes.
NN: OK.
TF: You know, I was born in 49.
NN: OK. All right. Do you still reside in Douglas?
TF: No.
NN: Area?
TF: Well, I went through high school in Saugatuck and then I went to Navy and then after that and
came home and got married, and we live on the north side of Holland right now, but I come down
here a lot.
NN: What service did you do in the Navy?
TF: I was aircraft hydraulics mechanic. For four years, ‘68 to ‘72.
NN: Where you stationed any place interesting?
TF: No, not really.
NN: Okay.
TF: Norfolk, Virginia, and Milton, Florida, were my two main bases. But then traveled a little bit.
NN: Norfolk is a large naval base, right, naval facility, shipbuilding facility area.
TF: Yeah.
EG: What… Tell us a bit more. Just thinking back to your childhood, other memories, you had, vivid
memories of the neighborhood, the school...
�TF: Well, when I was having my picture taken, I was telling the photographer that where you've got
the gardens. Just off here to the side, we had a small ballpark there that we played baseball there
and then, a little bit further to the west, there was a little hill with trees on the edge of the hill and on
the other side between that hill and what used to be The Tara restaurant, there was another place to
play ball, and that's where the older kids played.
5:07
TF: It was more of a laid out type of thing, and they would play over there, and that was pretty much
all... We had the playground equipment that was on the other side of the school of Merry-Go-Round,
a slide and teeter totters.And that was all that was there.
NN: That was on the side toward your house?
TF: Right.
NN: OK.
TF: And. Memory from a teeter totter I got. My cousin and I were on there one just in the summer
one time, and he jumped off while I was up in the air and came down a split my head open up metal
handle. [Chuckles]
NN: Right. So. So you were obviously injured to some extent. Do you remember where you were
taken to get patched back up?
TF: Just home.
NN: Back home, and that was OK?
TF: At the time, Dr. Coxford was a doctor and he lived out down towards the lake shore. So that was
where his office was. The hospital is across the street, across the highway, Bluestar. It's a hotel now.
NN: The Kirby, yep.
TF: Yes.
NN: Were you born at the Kirby House?
TF: Yep.
NN: Were you, okay.
TF: And my sisters.
NN: What years were they born?
�TF: Oh great. [Laughs]
NN: About?
TF: I have an older sister that's about two years older than me, and then a younger one was around
‘54. I think she was born.
NN: Okay. And they were all born at the Kirby House?
TF: Yeah.
NN: Can you tell us a little bit about the fire slide on the back of the old schoolhouse?
TF: The two? Yes, there was just a place that we used. We were told not to go in it, but we said it
didn't matter. We did anyway and just used it as a slide, because you can go up there and there was
a little platform at the top and you could sit and kind of hide from people if you wanted to. Just slide
down it. You got filthy because the inside of that thing was metal and so, everything you wore up
there got covered in metal dust.
NN: So, do you recall sliding down feet-first or head-first or both?
TF: Both, mostly feet-first, though, because there was quite a drop at the end.
NN: Oh, yeah?
TF: Yeah. It wasn't very close to the ground. [All laugh].
NN: So. All right, so tell us. You said you were here from kindergarten through second grade. Which
teachers did you have while you were?
TF: I just had Mrs. Stroud. Mrs. Stroud. She was the only one I had. The only other teachers that I
remember were Mrs. Haddaway. She had the room right next door, would have been right next on
the ground floor. But, I don't remember the name of the teacher that was up on top with the upper
grades. Can't remember her. Didn't have nothing to do with it. So, I don't remember. But, Mrs.
Haddaway stayed with the school system all the way till we consolidated with Saugatuck because
Douglas was an independent and when the kids…
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
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Various
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
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Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
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Image
Text
Language
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English
Date
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2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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DC-07_SD-FosdickT_01_2018-06-02
Creator
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Fosdick, Charles Thomas
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-02
Title
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Tom Fosdick, part 1 (audio interview and transcript) 2018
Description
An account of the resource
The first part of a longer interview, Tom Fosdick discusses early memories about the Saugatuck-Douglas area. He describes his time at the Old Schoolhouse and playing with his friends on the school properties.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nietering, Nathan (interviewer)
Gollanek, Eric (interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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Sound
Text
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/38ba2e0a5930a9772f09beaadc728b78.mp3
defe30c84d17c3b7a926a6098595e49e
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e158f15afa2232df817176112e88ffa.pdf
4048f04b0b892e81afe14f2c2ac7221a
PDF Text
Text
Anne Corlett interviewed by Sharon Bower
June 4, 2018
SB: Hi, this is Sharon Bower and we're interviewing Anne Corlett. Anne, tell me, when was the
first time you came to Saugatuck?
AC: Probably as a baby, because my grandparents came as children separately. And then my
father grew up coming every summer and my grandparents owned a big old farmhouse. So, we
would come every summer from long before I was born.
SB: When’s the first, what’s the first memory?
AC: I was born in 60, I would say probably. I remember Easters. I know it's not summer, but we
would come up for Easter. My grandparents would put on a big Easter weekend. We'd all fit.
They had four children. They were 14 grandchildren. We all fit in that big farmhouse. And I
remember walking on the frozen lake and, you know, Easter egg hunts and that.
AC: But the summer, you know, they're all summers blended together. As you know, most of the
days are on the beach. I probably I remember. I remember my sixth birthday. That might be one
of the earliest. That's August 1st. McVeigh's Store was down... So we're on Lake Shore Drive,
about a quarter mile north of Center Street. And McVeigh's Store was just that much further
down. And I was old enough to walk by myself. And back then they had a post office. So, on my
sixth birthday, I went to see if I got any mail, which I didn't. But I always kind of found some
change around, you know, a nickel or a quarter or some pennies. And so, there was penny candy.
So, it's always worth. That's a big memory. But all those beach days all meld together.
SB: And, what do you remember about the area so much? I mean, was it just the water, the
beach, the shops? I mean, it's changed a lot now.
AC: Oh, we almost never we almost never went downtown sometimes maybe for ice cream at
Around the Corner. I think that was there. That... what's now Kilwin's was a big store that sold
like fabric and thread. I'm sure it sold a lot more. But as a little kid, I'd go with my older sisters
who were loved to sew and we'd go to that big, huge building on that corner of. It's like kitty
corner from the. From the ...
SB: Drug store?
AC: Yes, we are all....
SB: The drug store, wasn't there?
AC: No, it was there. I just don't remember it being much of anything.
SB: Did you go to church at any of the churches here?
AC: No, no. I'm a pagan. [Laughs]
�SB: Grandma? Family.
AC: My grandmother. No. I don't remember them going to church. But. But I do. I'll tell you
what. The Chain Ferry was a big event and I had older cousins and we would walk across the
golf course, West Shore. It would take a long time, walk to The Chain Ferry and get into town
that way. That was a whole day activity. And back then, right at the Chain Ferry where Wick's
Park is now, there was a putt-putt course and I loved it. So, you know, you'd save up your
money. You go with your older cousins, take the Chain Ferry, play putt-putt, get ice cream and
go home.
SB: What age do you think I was?
AC: Probably anywhere between ten and fifteen. Sixteen.
SB: So, what years?
AC: So, that would be 1970-76, I would say. Yeah. So, downtown was pretty sleepy. If it was a
beautiful beach day, nobody was downtown and we were lucky.
AC: We had our own beach so we would walk down. You know, big memory is just going to the
beach and spending most of the day, like I would wake up, put on my bathing suit, have
breakfast and go to the beach and spend all day come up, you know, climb trees, find cousins,
because by then we had several houses and so different cousins would come. My grandparents
built one. Sold it. Bought this big old farmhouse. That's before I was born. CAPTA bought a
different house. My grandmother's parents had built a house across the street. Those are all still
in our family now. So now we're fourth. Well, I would be third generation, but we all have kids.
So, there's four generations that are using that still, same property.
SB: Where were you grandparents from?
AC: Super cool. They're both from Oak Park, Illinois. They used to take the steam steamship
across in the summer. My grandfather would come and camp on the property that my
grandmother's parents eventually bought and built on. And that property was super cheap. I bet
they well, relative to other property of the time because he couldn't grow anything on it. It was
right on the beach. Nobody wanted. Isn't it crazy? And so that was probably in 1910, or
something that they bought it. That was right across it. We still own it. It's still in my greater
family as I said.
5:04
AC: Now there's 14 owners of because it's my generation.
SB: And where were you living at the time?
�AC: We were also a suburb of Chicago, River Forest. Well, my grandparents were River Forest
too. And I say, Oak Park over. We would drive over. Mom would fill this station wagon. We'd
pack in. She was very relaxed. There were six of us. We'd pack in pillowcases and our
pillowcase would be our pillow for the ride up. I don't remember because 196 wasn't built then.
At a certain point, you'd be driving probably what's now Blue Star. And you'd see as soon as you
saw sand dunes, you'd be like, "Ugh, really close." But it would still be 40 minutes. There's
probably like a four hour drive or more from Chicago.
SB: Did your cottage have indoor plumbing?
AC: Yes. Not when they bought it. They bought it. It used to be like a B&B, which back then.
What's it called? Boarding house. When they bought it, it had an outhouse. They changed that
into like an ice shed. And then they tried to run it as a boarding house. So, they made a his and
hers bathroom out of one of the bedrooms, which were still there until the farmhouse, which is
what we call it, had a big fire in the 90s. And then we had to remodel, which was nice. But
anyway, but yes, there was indoor plumbing in this, you know, by the 60s for sure.
SB: And what did you do in the evenings?
AC: Games, cards, Scrabble. So, because cousins were often around, my sisters are enough older
where I didn't really hang out. But I would go to my cousin's cottage or we'd drift around. So, my
parents felt like it was super safe, and it was. And so, we'd drift, you know, from at least the age
of 12, I could drift in the evening even and go see what the other Corletts were doing. And they
might be playing charades or some other game, multigenerational games all the time.
AC: Occasionally, and then every once in a while, my mom, who was a big party giver, would
have like about once a year she'd have an art auction and she'd invite anyone who wanted to
come in the neighborhood. And it was for dinner and your ticket to dinner was a piece of art you
made. And usually, you know, it's all ages. So, it just be anything. It was a clothesline art show
and then they'd had that hung clothesline in the dining room. They'd hang them all up and she'd
make a big part of chili or something. And then we'd have an art auction, a penny auction at
night. You know, that was great.
SB: Did you contribute art?
AC: Always, sure. I've always done. Ah, I'm a painter.
SB: I know you were. What ways did you start?
AC: Well, I would. Oh, well, we were always doing projects and stuff. I don't think I took art
seriously probably until high school, till I was 15, maybe.
SB: Did you paint while you were here during the summer?
AC: Not till college. Not until... which is still the 70s. I went to college in 78. So yeah, I would
watercolor all the time. My grandmother, that's Helen Corlett, was a water colorist. She used to
�go to Oxbow all the time. Occasionally, I think probably twice in my life, I took a class at
Oxbow as a young person, younger than teenager, like eight or nine, once or twice, maybe 10.
SB: What was Oxbow like then?
AC: Oh, it's just really just like a quiet, sleepy little, you know, that old fart, you know, the old
Singapore hotel or whatever that is that, of course, that was there with its cricketing floor.
So that hasn't changed. And they had little workshops and those little buildings. I think I did
ceramic. I do remember doing ceramics one time. I was pretty young, though. I don't remember a
whole lot. You know, it wasn't till I was an adult where till I took another class in 2000.
SB: But you had to drive up there now?
AC: Yes. Yes, we drove. So, my grandparents used to sail here. We always drove. We would
come because it was my grandparents’ house. We we'd get three weeks in the summer, so we'd
come for three full weeks. My dad would come up on the weekends and then right around when I
was in high school, so in the mid 70s, maybe even early 70s, my grandpa bought another house
and things happened so that we could be up there longer. And they moved to this little cottage
behind that eventually became my mom's.
AC: So, we would have three full weeks. It was just heaven. And then later we'd have most of
the summer come up. Venetian Night was the height of every summer.
AC: Oh, when I was another birthday memory and I might have been turning six. And my mom.
I might have been five though, because I remember my sister gave me a purse full of candy.
Best present ever. But that year we had all my cousins, different cousins on my mom's side who
would go to South Haven in the summer. Just totally a different nut, you know, and my mom's
side anyway.
10:06
AC: And they all came for my birthday party. And then mom said, "Honey, I've arranged some
fireworks for your birthday." And it was Venetian Night, because my birthday was so close. She
just pretended that was my birthday. So, of course, that's why I think I have a real healthy selfconfidence.
SB: You thought the fireworks were for you?
AC: Yes, I did. I really did, so I had to be only like five.
AC: But we would go to the yacht club. My grandfather Corlett, Webster, was one of the very
first members there.
SB: And it’s the same location?
�AC: Same location. You know, recently it's been built up, but it was just like this sleepy little
cottage. It was great. And we would just go, you know, we'd lined the docks to watch the
fireworks. It's huge. Back then, there was not a Fourth of July fireworks, much less, you know,
New Year's Eve. It was just a Venetian Night and the parade of boats. You know, as a kid, I
would hear while my parents were having.
AC: So, the big thing is on the weekends during the week, there was no schedule. We floated
around the house. It was just great on the weekends, a little more of a schedule because my dad
was in town and there was always a major cocktail hour. And the kids. You know, I don't know
what I did except listen to the dirty jokes. as they kind of got a little buzzed.
AC: You know, all the stories on there were always stories like of like of the wild downtown,
especially in Venetian Night. You know, we were supposed to stay away because the bikers were
coming in town. And I do remember motorcycle, you know, tons of motorcycles parked in front
of The Sandbar.
SB: But you didn't go downtown?
AC: I… Not... Not when...
SB: Bikers?
AC: No, no. I mean, not really. I couldn't. I was too young. You know, if we're talking 60s and
70s. By the 70s, I suppose I... but I didn't really spend... You know, evenings in the summer, we
would go to the beach. And when I was old enough, go to beach fires. And back then, you kind
of you could have a beach fire, or you could just look either way down the beach and say, "Huh?
Are they having a beach fire there? Is there one in Shorewood, you know." Then we walked out.
AC: Are we covering all the questions? Now, I know you're doing great.
SB: You're fine, fine.
AC: OK. All right. So, when I got older, so I was so like I would say by 73, when I was 13, I
also was friends with other people on the lakeshore, the O'Donnells, or, you know, like 10 kids,
the two oldest were my age. Chris O'Donnell, you know, the actor, one of them, but he was a
baby then. The Quirks were across the street. There were you know, so there were all these
people. We kind of had a gang my age that did the whole beach fire circuit.
AC: So, you'd if maybe we would have it on my beach. It was usually my older cousins who
would do it, or you'd walk down there might be one five houses down. There might be, north of
us is Shorewood. That was always a huge gang. Some of those people became lifelong friends
and, you know, like Tag Werneck, lifelong friend from beach fires. There's something about it.
And so, we'd go down and there was always beer, but...
SB: So, someone would build a fire on the beach?
�AC: Yes. And I remember foraging for wood on the beach for beach fires people and bring logs
down from their house. There was wood or you'd pick the dry beach grass and you'd you know,
that was a big adventure. You learn to go to the bathroom in the beach grass, really young
because you don't wanna go back up to the house.
SB: All the way up there?
AC: Yeah.
SB: Because it was a hill, right?
AC: Yes. Lots of steps.
SB: Yep.
AC: So, evenings were pretty much fun. And there was beer. You know, I was pretty careful till
about well, maybe when I was 15, maybe 16. I'd have one beer, whatever. I got caught once and
a lot of trouble. I was grounded for two weeks in the summer.
SB: Your parents caught you?
AC: Yeah. I came in and my mom's like… You I actually I had snuck out and it came back and
she came up to my bed and I was like pretending I was asleep. She's like, "This is your ticket
back to River Forest." But I knew she was faking. She didn't want to go back. But I was
grounded for two weeks.
SB: And it was that mean you had to stay in the house?
AC: I couldn't go out at night. So, my friends, my cousins, they come by, they report. They go
out. They come back. They report. It was kind of fun, actually. I wouldn't tell my mom that.
SB: Did you ever go to Douglas at all?
AC: Douglas was... There was a little grocery for a while. You know, I think that was Terry
Byrne's father. But that's when I was really young. The Newsstand was always there and the post
office. And that's all I remember about Douglas. The library back then, the library was
downtown Saugatuck on Butler Street.
AC: And one of my mom's really good friends was Bill Allen. He was a newscaster for WOOD
TV-8, and they had been family friends, so she'd known him since a kid.
15:00
AC: And he lived. They lived on Campbell Road, which, you know, backs... It was pretty close
to us. You could cut across a golf course or whatever. And why did I bring him up? Why did you
just ask me about? Oh, no. Oh, no. I thought of the library. He was somebody was instrumental
�in getting that library together. So, I think it came together in the 60s because I kind of remember
that it was Brandon...
SB: Where was it at in Saugatuck?
AC: It was on Butler Street, like where... Just down from Landshark's. Like where it is where it
is. It later became The Newsstand. I remember when The Newsstand was there. No. Yeah. Right
now it's like American Spoon, or something.
SB: Yes.
AC: Yes. That was a library.
SB: A one-story?
AC: Yes, just one story.
AC: I remember going with my cousin, Steph Higgins. She was a huge reader, four years older,
loved her death, followed her everywhere and she went to the library. She took me there once
and I had never been. And she knew where every book was. She was such a voracious reader.
So, I would go to. And so that was very much fun. But I would go down to her cottage across the
street, which was musty, musty, musty. And they had paperbacks like... That was another thing.
Tons of reading. And they had paperbacks lining their bookshelves. And she had read every
single one, like at least twice. And so, you'd pull out one, you know, it was like a great little
secret.
AC: Also, they had a huge collection of Archie comics, like they had the biggest. So, we'd sit on
the porch and read Archie comics. And, you know, it was you could see the lake from their
cottage. So, the breeze would come in. You'd be reaching, reaching Archie comics.
SB: Did you like Veronica or Betty?
AC: Of course, Betty. Veronica was a bitch and Archie was kind of a dweeb that couldn't like
Reggie. Reggie was a jerk. Remember Archie? Wasn't it great?
SB: Yes, I do remember them.
AC: And then the neighbor next to them on the beach, Debbie Quirk. She was... She had two
older sisters. And she she was kind of advanced. She was the first one that got me a beer, you
know. And she they had love comics. So, you know, with a big tears, you know. I mean, it's very
funny now thinking about like I was like, "Love comics, sort of dicey, you know, compared to
Archie." [Chuckles]
AC: And then Aunt Peg Higgins', who had been a Corlett who married a Higgins. There's a lot
of double marriages in my family. But anyway, two Corletts married two Burmans. Two Corletts
married Higgins. Cousins married brothers.
�AC: But anyway, Aunt Peg. May she rest in peace. She just died last year. She she was an artist
and she had art projects going all the time. So, I would go there and do whatever project they
were doing. They were always different, all kinds. We would go we would also go to the beach
and a bunch of us would play Star Trek on the beach. I was young, so I had to be the guy with
the accent. I couldn't be Spock or, you know, I can't remember his name, not what's supposed to
be.
SB: How did you play Star Trek?
AC: I don't know. We ran around and we'd hide behind Lost Rock and so... Lost Rock, do you
know where that is? That's like south of our property. That was a big thing. Walk to Lost Rock
and back. You could get you… Sometimes we would dig clay out of the bank there and bring it
back and make like clay stuff on the beach.
AC: What else? The rock that's at Douglas Public Beach, which we called Buffalo Rock. It's
actually a little off of Douglas Public, but we would go there and get washed off by the waves.
There was one rock and I found out recently that was way out in the water. But we called it
Moby Dick. That was at our beach that we would find every summer. In fact, I would kiss it
before I went home.
SB: It's still there?
AC: Yeah, I just found it not that long ago. We swam and swam and swam.
SB: But that that rock was out of the water?
AC: It was never out of the water.
SB: OK, so you kissed it in the water?
AC: Yes. Yeah. Oh, Daddy kissed. Yes. But it was so big. Even you know how the water
changes so much. But you could find it every year. My cousins had a giant intertube. We spent
hours on that in the water.
SB: Then there wasn't any concession stand there or anything like there?
AC: No.
SB: It was just beach and people's property?
AC: Right. Right.
SB: Was there Oval Beach there?
�AC: Oval Beach. We never... Well, we would walk down and as kids were, you know, the big
thing would be walked to the lighthouse and back. And I remember when. We were walking
down my cousin Mary and I, but we were 14, so that's being the 74. And we were walk into the
lighthouse and back. And we're just walking. And Mary's like, “Anne, Anne, I think I see a
naked man swimming."
AC: And I'm like, "No, no, no."
AC: And she goes, "Yes!" And then we're walking along. And there was a sand sculpture of a
penis. [Both laugh]
SB: Oh, jeez.
AC: So, she's like, "I think that's a penis."
AC: I was like, "No, it isn't." She was a year younger than me. She was always freaking out.
20:01
AC: "Come on. I don't think we should go. I don't think we should." And we went and we just
kept walking. And most most of the men in there were in the beach grass and stuff. But there
were I think there were some naked men swimming, but it was nothing. She was a little more
shocked. than I was.
AC: We go to the lighthouse, which, you know, isn't really a lighthouse. It's just that thing that's
still the same.
SB: The big lighthouse wasn't there?
AC: Right. I don't know if it's the same, but it was just like a thing on the end of the pier there.
And we come back and there was a man taking money. But you could always walk by because
it's legal to walk by. But we came back and she told her mom and the police came to talk to us
about it. “What'd you see?”
AC: Because her mom, her mother was really a prude. She was really freaked out.
SB: If you had... Were you cognizant of the gay community being here at all?
AC: Not in here at all. Oh, yes. But not… not that whole beach. And and honestly, I can say this,
maybe this because I'm an adult and I don't have a problem with anybody doing that, but or being
gay or anything else like that. But I don't remember it bothering me, really. At all, because we
still would do the whole walk. But Mary, it did freak out, Mary.
AC: But I do remember. OK. Back to when we would sit on the front porch, I would sit and
listen into, you know, these conversations as the adults. And I had adult sisters who who were
married, you know, when I was very young. So, all our weddings, almost all six weddings were
�up here in the summer or the spring. Not all of them, but I'd say four out of six at least. I
remember the story of my dad and one or two of my brother-in-law's going to The Blue Tempo
just to see if it was really gay and it was.
SB: Where was the Blue Tempo?
AC: The Blue Tempo was... And so that was the big talk. There's a gay bar. The Blue Tempo
was... as you come into Saugatuck on I guess it's Culver now. It was on the left on the river. It
was kind of you had to kind of go down. There was a sign. Blue Tempo. And I think it was
where those were the condos are now. I'm not exactly sure. And so so ever after that, it's like, oh,
The Blue Tempo isn't a myth. It really is gay. Now, that story could have been just a story
because they were always laughing. But that's the only...
SB: It was a wild town in those days, was it not?
AC: Very wild. Yeah. That's why we weren't allowed to go in town, especially Venetian
weekend. That was like. Up for grabs. Very well. Now, when I was older, I went to college in the
fall of 78 in Wisconsin.
AC: And then in the summer of 79, I worked at Coral Gables, which is funny because everybody
who ever summer-ed here worked at Coral Gables, you know, and I.
SB: As a waitress?
AC: No. Yes. But it was just in The Galley. The Galley was a breakfast place where The Corner
Bar is now, OK. And I worked with... I just talked to this woman who lives here, who grew up
here. Maria Dross. Yes. She. She and I worked together there. And she remember the names of
everybody.
AC: I remember Bob Berger was the manager. Like Mike Johnson, who is older than I am.
But he wasn't really in charge. His dad was still alive. And I think his brother was still alive, too.
And but Bob Berger was managing and he had kind of come in and sort of scare us, you know,
with his big size, a big voice. But Murt made donuts every morning and we'd have Frank
Dennison and a couple other guys would come in every morning and have their coffee and
donuts. And you just hoped you waited on them because you usually get a really good tip. But,
you know, I was just 19.
SB: And this was just a part time job or-?
AC: This was a summer job in between in college.
SB: Every day or just part time?
AC: I can't remember. Probably. Yeah. But I mean, it was a breakfast lunch place, so I never. So
it was probably part time, yeah. Yeah. My dad never wanted us to work at night downtown in the
�restaurants. He's like, absolutely not. But then I got to be friends with the people who worked
there.
AC: So then even though I was... So, it was legal to drink when you were 18 in Michigan, when
I was 18, but when I was 19, it changed to 21. So, I couldn't. But I was used to it because I was
in Wisconsin and you could drink. So, my friends who worked there would get me into The
Crone stuff. They weren't so tough with ages back then, but sometimes I'd go to a party. The
guys who worked there used to live in apartments under what is now The Annex. Occasionally I
go to a party there, you know, get in trouble because I come home late smelling like beer.
SB: Did you walk home or did you go?
AC: I had a bicycle. I rode my bike every day to work.
SB: Oh, wow.
AC: From the farmhouse to Coral Gables is, you know, four miles.
25:01
AC: Not that much. Five me. Oh, no. Two and a half or three.
SB: You have to go down Blue Star, though, right?
AC: Yeah. You were down Blue Star. That whole summer, there was a bird that went after my
head for the hair, I think, right going over the bridge. Every time it was free, I finally learned to
wear a hat because back then, nobody wore helmets. Yeah, so. So, by the time I was a teenager, I
was spending time downtown. So, that's in the 70s.
SB: And what do you remember about the Saugatuck downtown, then? Was it mostly
restaurants, shops? You know, there were some shops. Ice cream stores, or what?
AC: The only real, you know, the first like real store was East of the Sun, which was on the
corner there, kind of right across from Land Sharks. I forget what's there now. And then across
from that was Sue... Oh, you know her. She died young, unfortunately. She was a great golfer.
Sue Lewis, Sue and Stubbe Lewis owned East of the Sun. And then they started across the street
the like real preppy clothing store, Brigadoon. And those were all those stores.
AC: Oh, and The London Shop. Those are the only clothing stores. So do you remember The
London Shop? All those old ladies who weren't that old, but they look so old to me. They were
the reading glasses on, fancy little stuff, you know, necklace around there. And there were two.
In my view, little old ladies, and they had, you know, like really traditional classic clothing. It
was called The London Shop, and it was kind of probably where the oh, The Butler isn't there
anymore. You know, For the Love of Shoes, where The Butler used to be. It was right in that
first block. And we would go there. Mom would drag me there because she wanted to go and
only because it wasn't my clothes. It was mostly adults, but they were there a long time and they
�were the only. They were the original clothing store in my memory. And then he's then
Brigadoon came later. And also, there was a needlework needlepoint shop next to that, I kind of
remember.
SB: Restaurants? Did you go to any restaurants?
AC: Well, The Butler was always there. And same with Coral Gables. But we never went out.
But what you want to know where we would go? Oh, The Red Barn. Love The Red Barn. We
went as kids. My grandmother went to every show and she would take us as kids out...
SB: Now, these were plays they did?
AC: Yeah, the plays at The Red Barn.
SB: The one that's still there?
AC: Yes.
SB: By the Belvedere?
AC: Yes. And they were top notch. You know, it's they were nearly as good as Mason Street is
now because they had someone's gonna know the name of the guy from New York City who
brought the New York cast over. And he did. I'll never forget Man of Lamancha. And I think I
was about 14, you know, to be like 73 or 4 or 5. And I went twice and it just, you know,
drowning in my own tears. It was so good.
AC: But those show and there'd be a couple locals. And then Bert Tillstrom, the puppet guy. He
always had Saturday afternoon things. We spent a lot of time at The Red Barn. And it was as a
treat. If my grandmother took us, we'd go to The Elbowroom first. So that's where that was a
restaurant back then. And that's where The Southerner is now.
SB: Yes.
AC: Yes. Right. It was The Elbowroom.
SB: And then it was The Elbowroom again, but long after.
AC: But way back in the 70s. Elbowroom. And I always ordered spaghetti because my mom
never made noodles. But anyway, so we'd go to that. And I don't think they served alcohol,
which so we'd be like if my grandmother took the grandkids, we'd go there and then we'd go to
the show. And she always had lifesavers she'd passes and then there'd be an intermission and
you'd go to. And that it was the same, of course, old building. It really hasn't changed much. And
you go downstairs and they'd serve. Somebody made a cake. And, you know, there was kind of a
concession.
SB: There wasn't, they didn't have any air conditioner, right?
�AC: No, fans. Seems like someone's word as hard as they are.
SB: No. No. Because you didn't have... did you have air conditioning in your cottage?
AC: No, still don't. This one I don’t get. We spent so much time on the front porch, which wraps
around. It makes an L. And this is what always surprises me about new houses. Now that they
don't have screened in porches, you know, you see these big, beautiful houses. My opinion, too
big, but don't quote me, without a screened in porch. We spent so much time on the porches
because that's where you get the breeze. You get wet from the lake. And then you'd sit in the
breeze, you know, did a lot of climbing of trees, too, in a wet bathing suit.
SB: What have you seen in terms of the changes here? Good and bad.
AC: I felt very sad. And I remember my dad was just so sad when the first big condo thing went
up. And I feel like the one...
SB: Which one was that?
AC: Well, I feel like it was the one right as you're first going into Saugatuck. I'm not sure that
was the very first, but that was a first really big one.
30:02
AC: Oh, you know, Tara was a place we went to dinner, so that wasn't in Saugatuck, but it was
over... Right here on Center and Bluestar.
SB: Yes.
AC: Yeah. It was up. It's so funny because there's so many condos there now. It was just one
restaurant on the top of a hill, you know. And we went there all the time at both my
grandmothers. My mom's parents also live. They ended up retiring up here, down by the wash
out. Really close to Lake Shore Resort. Anyway, so, both sets of grandparents were around,
which was lovely for me. But the The Tara, we went to with some frequency.
SB: And your dad was upset about the condo because lost its charm?
AC: It just made him sad. Right. It lost its charm. So, I think. And I'm sure there was some Tshirt shops. I don't really remember. I mean, we didn't shop the way people shop. Now, if you
needed a pair of flip flops, which actually I don't think they were invented then, anyways. You
know, something like that. Oh, we did Mount Baldy all the time.
SB: Were there steps up to Mount Baldy?
AC: Yes, there were steps.
�SB: But at what age would you say this would be?
AC: All through the 60s and 70s. We did. We'd go, we'd either we'd walk there, or we'd get
driven and dropped off and we'd go up and down and we'd go up the stairs and run down the
side, which you can still do. And there used to be a route rope swing on the other side. And I was
never big enough to do that by the time it came down. But all my older cousins and siblings did.
And then we go up and down and up and down. And then the last time we went up, we'd run
down to the Oval and walk home on the beach. So that was great. We also toboggan it in the
winter.
SB: Oh, wow.
AC: Scary.
SB: From… From the top? Where Mount Baldy is?
AC: From the top. Yeah. The top on Mount Baldy down the back. Actually, I did that with a
boyfriend and that would be in 79 or so. Yeah. I'm glad I'm alive. That was something.
SB: Do you remember how many steps it was in those days?
AC: Well, it was the same steps that were here. You know, they rebuilt these not that long ago.
But no, I have no idea. Numbers and I just don't... I can't remember any numbers.
SB: Besides the condos, what other changes do you see? That you think were good or bad?
AC: Let me just tell you about my family. It's a great story about my grandmother. Her husband,
and they weren't married, so she was staying in the house. They ended up buying. They were
residents of this boarding house. My grandfather, they were teenagers in like 15. And she told
me this story after I got in trouble for sneaking out, which was really sweet. He came, threw
stones on her window. They had they had a picnic breakfast. It was like before the sun rose and
she snuck out and they went to Mount Baldy and climbed it to watch the sunrise. And there were
no stairs then. But that would be like they were probably married in 1915.So that would be
before 1912, or something.
SB: She had to sneak out, though?
AC: She had to sneak out too. So that was nice that she told me. That's true. I don't think they
were drinking beer but. OK, let me see.
SB: Did you have a boat or anything?
AC: Yes, we had a boat. We still have it. It's a 1964 Boston Whaler. So, my grandfather, there
was a lot of sailboat racing at the yacht club back then. My dad, my grandfather, my uncle. I
never really learned. And I wish I had. I did not spend much time there, but we would go watch
them race. And we had this little Boston Whaler. My Uncle Ted, Ted Corlett, did a lot of work
�on the docks. You know, it was not fancy the way it is now. And he did a lot of the repair and he
was just like. He's an engineer and he just loved to spend time doing it. So anyway, so we we had
a really good slip right by the. And we had just a little seventeen and a half foot Boston Whaler.
But we would waterski behind it. We waterski on the big lake or in Silver Lake. That hasn't
changed really at all. It's funny, though, you go down the river. The houses are so big and fancy
and they were just like little fishing shacks.
AC: And I remember a lot all those little... Some are the same.
SB: You would come from where the the yacht club was?
AC: Yes. Down to the big lake. Down the river to... The cove was always a big thing. We would
go as kids. We would go as teenagers. There's usually a party there. That whole thing that
happens. Venetian weekend happened all the time. Well, not with a barge necessarily, but there
are always boats there partying and getting sun. We spend time there too, or we go out in the
lake and, you know, jump in the water when it was really hot. Way out there, which we still do.
AC: OK. So changes. So the yacht club changing is a big thing, you know. I guess it's for the
best. But I. I'm sad about losing the character that used to be there. It was very not fancy, which
was lovely anyway. So that all. Same with all the condos. I think it's great. People can enjoy the
area, but it's to me, it's lost a lot of that summer cottage thing.
34:58
AC: There's still some of those cottages on Park Street, and I just love them. And I hope that,
you know, and I don't I never feel bad if somebody. I mean, I don't I don't disparage somebody
putting money into the area. That's fine. But I it is. I miss that old. Like it was a sleepy little town
that got a a little crazy in the summer, but it was just a sleepy little town. That was lovely.
AC: I would say the Lake Shore hasn't changed a whole bunch, but I'm so lucky that we have a
place, and that's remained the same.
SB: You know, your grandmother's cotton grandmother's big barn or a farmhouse.
AC: Yes, we called the farmhouse.
SB: Yes.
AC: Yeah. How’re we doing?
SB: We’ve got time to talk.
AC: OK. How much time to read?
SB: An hour. OK. Yeah. And so, what... What other... You did, boating, swimming. You didn't
do sailing.
�AC: Well, I didn't personally race boats, but other people in my family did. But we did have a
Sunfish on the lakeshore, which a lot of people used. I turtled at twice and then bent the mast.
So, then I decided I was going to sail it anymore. But my Uncle Ted made surfboards like big
heavy, almost like floating rafts. So, we did we'd just play in the water a lot.
AC: Oh, I'll tell you another beach thing we did. And these are my creative older sisters. We did
sand castings a lot. So, you get Plaster of Paris and a big bucket and then you get the sand wet.
My oldest sister, Sue, was a master at it. You take something to make an impression in the sand.
Maybe it's your hand. Or maybe it's like she loved to do impressions of, you know, like Mother
Mary or I don't know. Stuff she found. And then you pour it. You make plaster with the lake
water and you pour it in and let it harden. And then when you flip it out, it's a sand casting and
we have him hanging all over. And I had my kids doing when they were a little. So that was a
big beach tradition. And artistic.
SB: So, you were, were always doing art, doing something artistic always?
AC: That was that's how we kept busy. Never had a TV. Never, never had a TV there. Now we
do. Which I don't like. But I think the men sort of overrode the new TV because they. Because of
sports.
SB: What do you think this place was special for you?
AC: I mean, the family was there. Connection to family and connection to the lake. And, you
know, I am always going to paint the lake. I I am so driven to connect to what what that how it
makes me feel to be at the beach. And sometimes when I'm painting, I think all those hours. I
mean, we used to lie in the sun and get sunburnt for hours. You know, baby oil or Copper Tone,
you know, getting the perfect tan was really important.
AC: And so, all those hours I spent on the beach, I did a lot of reading on the beach, too. And we
would dig sand, sand castles, make, you know, drip castles. And, you know, there was all kinds
of things we did.
AC: But anyway, when I paint now, I think, oh, that's what all that time was like, stacking up my
bank, like filling me up with all this information that I still need to get out canvas. I think that a
lot. That's why I need to paint like the water I painted all the time, or the dunes, or the clouds.
I mean, I'm so driven and you think I get tired of it, but I haven't get tired of it.
SB: You say it has much changed since those days.
AC: Right. Right. The dunes and the clouds. Dune Schooner rides, the same thing. I did him as a
kid in the 60s, scared the death, scared me to death. I just took friends on them last year. They're
really a lot the same. God bless them for keeping the dune rides. So Mount Baldy, the dune rise.
That's all the same. I don't mind. I think it's kind of fun.
�AC: The downtown has so many great restaurants. It really does. And it's fun. The bars, the
restaurants are great. You know, the shops. I just I don't go to town when it's busy because it's
too frustrating.
SB: You live here, now.
AC: Yes.
SB: Now, how did you decide to do that?
AC: 30 years now I've lived here. Well, because I married a person who who had a business
here. He we met because he was my parents' dentist. So, I was living in Chicago in an art
neighborhood, and they were frantic to get me married because I was an old maid, because I was
27. So, they introduced me to him and we hit it off and got married within a year. So, in 88 we
got married and I moved here and I'm so happy I did because even though that marriage didn't
work out in the long run, it was great. Well, it was great. And we have these wonderful kids, and
it was wonderful raising the kids here.
40:02
AC: I loved being… I thought at first, I was afraid a little bit of such a small school system.
But it's a stellar system. And you can I was on the school board. You could jump in with both
feet and really make a difference. And I think a lot of parents do. I think it's so. So, I've lived for
30 years. So, even in the time I've lived here, it's changed a lot.
AC: But especially since the 60s and 70s when I was growing up in the summer here, I think the
lakeshore has changed the least, although it's real sad to see Westshore Golf Course gone. And I
never really we would go we're right behind the 15th green. We would go in and, you know, put
around, you know, goof around out there and we would have lemonade stands out there, made a
lot of money, and then we would search for golf balls, sell them back to the golfers, and make a
lot of money. I mean, really enough money to go to McVeigh's and buy candy. But the. But other
than that golf course, you know, there's some big houses and stuff, but there's still a lot of
cottages. And it's lovely.
AC: It's so crowded. Like Douglas Beach is so crowded. You know, it's just for parking and
stuff. Sort of too bad. But I'm so lucky. I know it doesn't matter to me. I think it's good if people
can use it. It's I think that B&Bs are interesting, you know. And now it's AirB&B that that's
brought so many more people. But I don't go in. I go into town to do yoga in the morning. I love
there's some stores I love, but I don't go downtown in the summer.
SB: And how would you compare Saugatuck-Douglas, to other places that you lived? Is it totally
different?
AC: Yes.
SB: A little cocoon or what? How would you describe?
�AC: Well, you know, I haven't lived too many other places.
SB: You were in Chicago.
AC: I was in a neighborhood of Chicago. I grew up in a suburb of Chicago. And then when I
went to school in Madison, Wisconsin. But up north, I've spent a fair amount of time in a gallery
up like in Harbor Springs. And I have a good friend in Traverse City. I've spent lots of time in
Leelanau. I think I think Saugatuck, some of those towns way up north are kind of kind of still
feel like Saugatuck used to. There's some big money, but mostly it's just local. I love that the
farms are still close Here, you can go. And I love our artisan cheeses and, you know, like our
like, Virtue's Cider and Fenne Valley and all these places.
SB: And let's not forget Cranes.
AC: Cranes. You know, I don't remember going as a kid.
SB: You don't. remember it being here?
AC: I don't remember it being here.
SB: Picking apples?
AC: It might have been here but I didn't do it as a kid. I can't. We always went to Pier Cove. We
used to always go down there. No, I don't remember.
SB: What was Pier Cove? Why did you go to Pier?
AC: Just because it's a cool beach.
SB: You don't like picking fruit here? Any of that stuff?
AC: I didn't. I think my mom had too many kids to marshal around, but I took my kids picking
fruit. But that would be in the 90s. Yeah. What else is big? Yeah, we put, you know, I think just
hanging out outside, you know. We were talking about I was different from anything.
SB: So how is it different from any place else?
AC: Well, right now, the fact that it's a small town. Oh, it's very different because it's especially
in the off-season, it has that wonderful small town feel where you drive in the gas station and
you you wave at the owner, you know.
AC: Now, I forgot. McGee, you know, from your car or you you know you know, the whatnot
was always there. You know, the people there or whatever you see people, you know, all the
time. It's a lovely small town, but it has so much sophistication. So even though sometimes
people retired back then, now it's hugely a retirement community. And same with the gay
�community, I think has has put roots down. They didn't just back then it was OK. There was a
bar or two or whatever, and I don't really know. But now it's it's part of our bigger culture.
AC: And I think there's such a wealth right now of of intelligence and experience and the
willingness to volunteer. And so, this history center's amazing and our library is amazing. And,
you know, our school system's amazing in part because of all the partnerships. You know,
Rotary is amazing. I mean, there's just so much going on, I'm sure. And for all the SCA and
Oxbow. All those things make it such a rich place to live. I don't think other small communities
this size have that kind of, you know, at all.
SB: Remember, this interview is going to be saved for a long time.
AC: Yes.
SB: Maybe 50 years from now. Somebody listens to it. What advice would you have for them or
what would you tell them about this time? About this time right now? About your community
and others right now? How would you explain it 50 years from now, it's going to be totally
different. Probably.
45:06
AC: Well, I love this community and I don't think I ever want to leave. I like it. It's I think it's
exciting that it's full of tourists in the summer. And I think it's delightful when it's just the people
who live here year-round and some people live here, you know, come some people go away in
the winter. That's a little different. I think that's delightful, too, to you know, I think we have a
beautiful fabric.
AC: We have our school, which is really strong and wonderful. And the and the teachers are
amazing and the and the parents are amazing. So, we have her school. We have our businesses
there. They're starting to dovetail more and more because some of the business owners like
Landshark have their kids in the schools. You know, we have professionals living here and
raising their families because now they can work remotely. And that's changed a lot. And I think
that's lovely. Lots of people work from their home. And then we have the retired community. Or
and or summer people who don't have children here, so maybe the gay community or just people
that live here because they love it. It's beautiful and aren't necessarily connected with the schools.
But then our connect and put all their energy in the historic society or that or the Center for the
Arts or Oxbow or many others.
AC: There are many other charitable causes like it just had that thing Paws for a Cause or Cause
for a Paws or something, fundraising for the animals wide. I don't know exactly. But anyway, we
have a great scholarship foundation and people give to that. There's Aware scholarships. Aware
is another... So there's, there's all kinds of partnerships going on and. I think that's maybe one of
the most lovely things about this community.
AC: And then, of course, you have the lake shore and you just can't beat the beaches. And I hope
I hope we always all have access to the beaches because they're amazing. And I think when I
�stand and I'm painting or I'm looking out over the lake, I feel like it's timeless, like it's… it's the
same as it was one hundred years ago. And it'll be the same in one hundred years.
SB: Yeah.
AC: Yeah. If it doesn't get polluted because of course they're going to let those oil pipelines
through or something worse.
SB: Yeah. So. So what advice would you give somebody 50 years from now if they were going
to be living here or are thinking of living here?
AC: I don't know. I mean, treasure it. Treasure it. It's beautiful. I hope it doesn't get out of the
range of a regular person being able to afford to live here, you know, right now I live out of
town. So, we raised our kids in town. And then when I became single, I bought a house out of
town. And it's, it's not the country, but it's more affordable and still beautiful and still accessible
to the town. So, I hope that I hope that that's still people are still able to live here and it doesn't
price out.
SB: And what's your favorite place to paint here?
AC: You know, it's kind of might sound trite, but I love to go to the Oval. I love to go up in the
dunes. And you can either look north where it's wilderness and dunes or you can look south on
the beach with the people. Right now, I'm doing a whole series of people on the beach paintings.
So much fun. So, I guess I still like to go to the beach to paint the most.
AC: Dune State Park, there is another amazing resource, amazing resource. I go many days a
week with my dog to walk her. So. That's a lovely place to paint and just to be.
SB: In the park?
AC: In the Dune State Park, I don't know how many acres, it's hundreds and it's mostly wooded.
But then it has all those beaches too there. Gorgeous. But you need to be willing to walk a little
to get there.
SB: I need a compass.
AC: You might need a compass. The trails aren't marked very well.
SB: I could get lost.
AC: You could get lost. Yeah. You have to know where the sun sets.
SB: Figure, if I haven't asked you that, can you think of your memories of this town that you just
remember standing out?
�AC: You know, the docks that are along the river on the Saugatuck side of Lake Kalamazoo.
You know, so in front of from the bottler all the way down to Wick's Park, those are pretty much
the same. And I remember boats rafting off of each other on holiday weekends, and that just
makes me so happy. I love to see it now. All the art fairs, I didn't bring that up. They were
around. My grandmother did on the clothesline after she was part of the art club way back. It's
still I just became a member. It's hopefully the art club will still be up in 50 years.
50:04
AC: And actually, they do a couple our fairs. And I just said, OK, I'm going to do it because I
want to bring locals to it and to participate in and bring it closer to what it used to be, which was
local people with their art, not just. And know commercial are people right now, visual artists
like say.
SB: Right. Right.
AC: But the… So, the art club is another great resource. And there's a garden club or two. I don't
really know. Anyway, and Oxbow.
SB: Have you been back to Oxbow?
AC: I love Ox by actually going to teach there the summer. I'm going to teach pastels. They have
the art in the meadow classes. So that's not part of their accredited through the Art Institute.
That's kind of more for locals. Oxbow’s fabulous. I can't believe how much the same it is. Even
though they have new buildings and they've kept the old they've kept the feeling. It's really a
wonderful, happy place.
AC: You know, in the 60s and 70s, I was sort of a wannabe hippie. And I feel like, you know,
your bare feet in the sand and you're wearing a halter top. Everybody else is wearing, you know,
little cutoffs. I feel like that's still happening in Oxbow. Oxbow is timeless and that's lovely. And
they have all those that Talmage words there. There's amazing art coming out of there. I hope
that's still going in 50 years.
AC: And if somebody was to here and live here, definitely go and spend time there and support
it and get to know at. Because it's amazing and has been here, you know, a really long time.
Hundred and fifty years or something.
SB: OK for when you were a child and you would be coming up here for the summer? Well,
what would be the thing that you would look forward to?
AC: So, the whole thing was pure joy. Let me get one side. Pure joy. It was, you know, even the
summers I worked or the summers I didn't work. It was just so it was just beautiful and it was
safe. You know, it's kind of amazing. My parents just let me go. You were lucky to live in that
time. I think so. And have the grandparents with the foresight, too. Yes. Oh, I can't tell you how
lucky I am. I think that every day. I think that every day.
�SB: Great. Thank you.
AC: Well, thank you. It's been really fun and you're really good at that.
SB: So glad to have preserved your history. I'm going to use it for people to understand what life
was like. And we don't lose those memories. That is very interesting. It's really great. We’re
done. Okay, turn that off.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
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Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
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Image
Text
Language
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English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-07_SD-CorlettA_2018-06-04
Creator
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Corlett, Anne
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-04
Title
A name given to the resource
Anne Corlett (audio interview and transcript) 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Anne Corlett describes her experiences as a summer cottage resident during the 60s and 70s. She recounts her experiences of the beaches, her connection to the arts and Oxbow, as well as her various experiences with the LGBT community.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Bower, Sharon (interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Gay bars
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Format
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Sound
Text
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c150c42df5d80bb6bf8cc543935bdc72.mp3
62c69cbe0fe79a2ddf83b73ef83dfe14
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d7eeeebf32dc0410571db954af87f8ee.pdf
f8aa78585478ae33bc5db1b3738132d5
PDF Text
Text
Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
1
Eric Gollannek: This is Eric Gollannek and I...
Ken Kutzel: …and Ken Kutzel…
EG: …and I’m here today with…
Ray Foster: Ray Foster.
EG: Uh, at the old school house in Douglas, Michigan on July 23rd, uh, 2018. This oral history is being
collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the
National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to
meet with us today, we’re interested in learning more about your family’s history, in particular
experiences of summer. Can you please state your full name and spell it for us?
RF: Raymond Edward Foster, R A Y M O N D, E D W A R D, F O S T E R
EG: That’s great, alright, so we’ll, we’ll continue our conversation here, you brought in a few things here
about your farm, you want to tell us a little bit about where it is and…
RF: Well this, this was kind of a family farm, um, my mother, mothers’ parents and uh, her grandparents
uh, um, bought eighty acres. They came from Chicago in the late 1800’s and uh, bought eighty acres uh,
near the corner of 66th street and uh, 126th and uh, they [pause] they farmed it and uh, [pause] uh, a
lot of different things. They had blueberries and raspberries and uh, they had 20 head of cattle and uh,
chickens and uh, at different times, different things, uh. Through the years and uh, they raised four
daughters, my mother was the oldest and uh, [pause] she spent, she was the last one to leave the farm.
The other daughters grew up, we got married and then before World War Two, and then my mother got
married after World War Two and uh, so she spent more time on the farm. But as I was growing, when I
grew up and [pause] I, I stayed there with my grandparents. They were in good health and uh, help them
do things [pause] and uh, but mainly just really enjoyed the place. And uh, it was uh, just a just a
beautiful retreat, and uh, a lot of great place to explore and uh, [pause] uh, [long pause]
KK: Is the house still standing?
RF: The house is still standing, it’s had several owners since then, and uh, but uh, [pause] but it’s been,
it’s changed some. Uh, considerably. The house, the outside structure’s pretty much the same but it has
a garage added to it, but uh, and uh…
KK: I noticed it says here that that’s the Hines homestead?
RF: Yes...
KK: Is that what it was called?
RF: Well yes, my, [stutters] I, I, I didn’t mention that but my, my great grandfather's name was Emo
Hines and he came from Chicago and he was not a farmer but he kind of adopted the, the [stutters] hob
hobby, but he had just one son, Otto who was my, my uh grandfather and my great grandfather was a
German immigrant and uh, [pause] he uh, [pause] along with his son uh, they kind of developed the
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
2
land. They planted fruit trees and grape vineyards and, and uh, and raised cattle, and tilled the soil with
a team of horses and uh, um, [pause] it was a [pause] a [pause] a labor of love I think, uh, uh, they uh, it
stayed in the family till the 70’s and uh, so ah, let’s see where can I go from there uh, but I, but I, I spent
a lot of time there in the 60’s, the 50’s and 60’s and uh, [pause] and uh, [pause] well…
KK: How ‘bout, give another...tell us, you, the other day when we spoke with you. You started to tell us a
story about one time when you were on the farm and the motorcycles came in...
RF: Oh!
KK: Would you talk about that please?
RF: No, actually that was at my parents’ house…
KK: Oh!
RF: ...on M89 east of Fennville.
KK: Well let’s talk about that anyway!
[00:04:39]
RF: Okay! Sure! Well it was probably ‘65 ‘66, maybe ‘64 ‘65 ‘66, [pause] I think by ‘67-’68 it kind of
fizzled out. But, on a Memorial Day weekend or Fourth of July weekend, uh, you could hear, hear from a
long ways away this, this sound of motorcycles coming, and there was long strings of them, and various,
[stutters] grou-groups, probably a dozen in a group or so, maybe more, and they came from Detroit,
Flint, and uh, [pause] uh, mainly east, on the other, eastern side of the state, but uh, I guess I could
describe them as a colorful group. They weren't, they weren't necessarily uh, like uh, social club they
were, they more of, of an old [stutters] I I I don’t want to make a comparison to the Hell’s Angels but
they were, they were kind of that style. Uh, their, their jackets on the back had, had little titles like uh
‘Disciples from Hell’ or ‘Hell’s Disciples’ or that sort of thing. That theme was very popular, and uh, but
when I was able to go to Saugatuck, uh, on those weekends it was incredibly busy, they would actually,
unless you could prove you lived there they wouldn’t let you in they would stop at the top of the hill,
they wouldn’t let cars down. And, the motorcycles would be rode up the entire like, from Phil’s all the
way down to the corner and uh, they um, [pause] they would pretty much take over the town. As, as
strange as that might sound, and and the police were, were usually, it wasn’t like today, they were, it
was a small police force and they might rent a few, we referred to ‘them as Rent-a-Cops because they
were just hired for that special occasion. And uh, I’m, I’m not aware of any major, uh, conflicts that uh,
that occurred. There may have been some but I wasn’t really aware of anything, like a, any kind of a
small riot or anything like that. I wasn't aware of anything like that but, but as a teenager it was quite a
novelty to see that. To be exposed to that, and uh, [pause] so, [pause] um, [pause] well, that was pretty
much it, I mean uh, just, just to see it, holiday was over they were gone…
KK: Did that happen every weekend? Or…
RF: No, no, no. Just on, I only saw it on a holiday weekends, and uh, so, that was uh, kind of a, unique
thing.
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
3
EG: What were the reactions of your parents, or grandparents?
RF: Well you know I…
EG: Or neighbors to that?
RF: You know, as far as my, the uh, [pause] the [pause] my parents’ generation, I don’t think they uh, I
don’t think really could comprehend what was going on. I don’t, [stutters] I, I was never aware that they,
uh, it wasn’t something they were happy about, I’m sure, I I know that much but as far as uh, feeling
threatened or anything like that or, uh, [pause] they just, they just looked at it as some kind of a
temporary thing, a phase I think. I don’t think they thought of it as a, um, you know a…
EG: Collapse of civilization…
RF: [Laughs] Yeah! Sure, that, yeah. I’m sure they thought of something like that. Yeah….
KK: Although at that time, was the um, was the summer season, here in Saugatuck, I mean was it um, as
long as it is now, er, you know?
RF: Well, I think, I think I would say it is, um, people started coming up, [pause] um probably before
memorial day and, and um, to their cottages and such and uh, they pretty much stayed until after Labor
Day, shortly after Labor Day. Yeah, there was good numbers of people. It’s hard to make a comparison
between then and now, because things just look at a lot different. They appear a lot different.
KK: Why don’t you talk about that?
RF: Well, I, I guess I could say that, at that time, it was a very affordable place to go, for, for the average
middle class person, and [pause] even though it had a history [pause] from, that I had heard about, you
know ‘Well Saugatuck is really one of, a place you want to go because [stutters] they, they, they have
bars they stay open all night’ and um there’s that kind of atmosphere but, but as a young person, you,
you kind of want to be exposed to a little bit of that.
KK: Well sure!
All: [Laugh]
[00:09:54]
RF: Just to, just to find out for yourself and uh, but, that’s, that’s probably the most striking thing, and
the development, there’s much more development today. You could, you could see the water when you
came in off of, of Blue Start and came into town and you could see the water, uh all the way. There were
no condos or anything like that, and uh, uh, [pause] so, [pause] I hesitate using the word quaint, but if
you, if you were there in the winter you might call it that, but the summer there was a lot of people so it
wasn't really, it was more, it was a tourist town, it was strictly a tourist town. But uh, [pause] uh, the
Coral Gables was a really popular place at that time, very popular place. People would be lined up
waiting to get in, and uh, and [pause] uh, I do remember some scuffles out front just as a bystander
watching some people. Probably some unruly people getting thrown out, and those things kind of stick
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
4
in your head. But, uh, [pause] uh [pause] it was an evolution I guess, you know it just evolved from, you
know my parents’ generation, they probably would’ve saw something, even more, uh, more quaint I
guess you’d say, more slow paced and um,[pause] uh, but things have, thing have evolved to what they
are today and uh, it’s it is, but uh I suppose it’s relative in a way, but it is more, more expensive for the
average person to just go anywhere and spend some time in a, a restaurant or a bar.
EG: Beyond Coral Gables, were there other places that stood out to you? That you spent time, or…
RF: Well…
EG: Or stayed away from, or?
RF: Well the Butler and Coral Gables were always the biggest two, biggest items, and uh, everything else
was just really small. Like uh, there was a place called the Boathouse, and that was down at the end of
the street, across Wick’s Park, in that area, and uh, and uh, all the other little places were just um,
[pause] were lesser, and then, then I, one thing I remembered too in, in it may have been ‘68 or ‘67, you
guys might know, the Blue Tempo came in…
KK: Yes let’s talk about that
RF: Well, you know, as, as a, as a person growing up at that time, I didn’t even, I didn’t even understand
what uh, or fully understand what uh, [pause] um, what a gay, the whole concept of gay people was…
EG: Sure…
RF: So, uh, but I knew this was a unique place, and I knew it had, but, had I known more, in in hindsight, I
might of, might of tried to go there because I know they had great music, and uh, I’m a great uh,
admirer of that kind of, uh, music, and a great history for music and uh, but uh, [pause] uh because now,
as a 70 year uh, and having lived in the area, or known people in the area for a long time, that whole uh,
uh, [pause] uh, shall I say the [pause] the gay scene, is is a, it doesn't, it doesn't even leave an impression
on me anymore.
KK: It’s become part of the culture.
RF: It’s part of the culture, and uh, so, but, but it was always know as a unique place. It was the location
was unique and uh, everybody knew that this was a gay bar, and uh, and uh, so, I wish I could tell you I’d
been there and experienced it but I, I can’t. A friend of mine was there and I only get bits and pieces
from him, but uh, [pause] uh [pause] but uh.
EG: What were some of the reactions or things that people, other people’s reactions or things that
you’ve heard about?
RF: About…
EG: [Inaudible]
RF: About, concerning that?
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
5
EG: Yeah!
Ray: Ah, [pause] you know, people uh, were not really very activist type people at that time. Most
people, you know, they went about their own business and if something new came along, well they
talked about it, but as far as being a [pause] being a objectionable thing or a something that really
disturbed people. People just kind of...after a while it just blew by.
[00:15:14]
KK: [Inaudible]
RF: Yeah, and uh, so, the reaction, my impression of the reaction wasn’t, wasn’t anything really big.
EG: Just another bar, another club that has good music and we’re probably not going there. That kind
of…
RF: That kind of reaction.
EG: That kind of reaction?
RF: That kind of a thing yeah, that’s fair to say. Yeah.
KK: You know um, a question I have for you, being a Douglas resident myself, uh, what are your
memories of the Douglas side?
RF: Well, I occasionally, I would go there with my uh, grandparents occasionally. There was, there was a
little grocery store down on the end of the street towards the river, uh, where uh, um [pause] well there
was a little novelty store there near Naughtons...
KK: Yeah.
RF: Near Naughtons store there, that at one time there was a grocery store there…
KK: Was that Vansicles?
RF: Vansicles, yes! And they would go there occasionally, and uh, [pause] and we would also pick uh,
they they raised uh, raspberries so we would pick raspberries and we would bring them into town and
right where the park is, where the ballpark is there was a man, a vendor there, [pause] and uh, he would
take all we had and uh, he would sell them to the tourists and uh, gosh, just trying to remember his
name now, he had a son who was blind [pause] um, [long pause] gah!
KK: Well it’s alright, it will come to you when you’re not thinking about it.
RF: Right. But anyway it was a, so we did that, we would hang out there for a while but at that time,
across the street, the uh, there was uh, a Catholic School there too. So we knew the, we knew about
that, and at that time the original Catholic Church wasn’t St. Peter's it was just down the street.
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
6
KK: Right.
RF: And uh, one little side light to that, I have a, uh, my dad [pause] had an uncle and uh, I [pause] and
he was the first baby to be baptized there, and I should’ve brought the name, the baptized name was all
the little organizations in town gave him a name and when he went back many years later he was
embarrassed because they mentioned him, and brought him, and mentioned him and everything but his
baptized name was uh, Peter Paul Benedict, uh, Jacob Ivan, [pause] Clark and uh, and they all gave him a
name so, it was, it was an embarrassing thing for him as an adult. But uh, he did happen to be the first
baby that was baptized there uh, he was a part of a large family that was also in the area. But [pause]
but it was a, it was a, it was a incredibly quiet quaint little town. Just down the street there was a place
called the Delicatessen and a man named Red Delky owned it and he had a baker working for him that
was a refugee from Austria, a World War Two refugee, and an incredibly talented pastry chef and
anybody my age can tell you, that lived in the area that they made the best bread and uh, and uh, uh
[pause] sweet rolls and that sort of thing uh, that you could find anywhere. And uh, and uh, down a little
bit further there was a little drug store so it was a, really a, had everything.
KK: [Inaudible}
RF: Just a little town! And uh, I uh, I would also go on Friday night, quite often on Friday night with my
grandparents, near the corner of uh, Blue Star and uh, Maple Street, uh going to the north. There was a
house on the right hand side, at one time it was a resort, owned by my grandfather's uncle, Fred Hines
and [pause] they would pick up people, you would pick up people that came in on the boats and then
bring them back to the resort and uh, his wife would uh, do the housekeeping and uh, he was just
mainly just took them around town to the beach or wherever they wanted to go and uh, but, they had a
little resort there. So but, in later years when I went there with my grandparents, the uh, the next
generation down lived there, my, would be a cousin to my grandmother, grandparents, er grandfather
and uh, so we would just go there, spend some time there with them, they would uh, talk about old
times and that sort of thing, and uh, but uh, it was just [pause] a nice quiet little visit. But uh, I don't
know, what else can I tell you?
[00:20:46]
KK: Do you remember the, uh, the rock festival at all? Were you involved in that, or?
RF: I did go to the one at uh, near Goshorn Lake…
KK: Okay, that’s Potawatomi Beach, right?
RF: Potawatomi Beach, yes. Uh, yes, I did go to that in ‘68, I believe
KK: I believe that’s what it was….
RF: I think it was in ‘68, and it was hot and dry and sandy roads and people would, uh, it was [inaudible]
it was incredibly crowded and uh, you couldn’t get close to the band stand, it was just uh, again there
was, there was that large influx of uh, motorcycle people and they kind of dominated an area there, but
uh, so you could hear things from a distance unless you, unless you somehow got there real early and
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
7
worked your way in, but it was kind of a phenomenon I guess because the volume of people, yeah I
think I, I think I read where cars were lined up all the way from, from that park all the way to the bridge
at the river…
KK: I have heard that….
RF: It’s hard to imagine…
KK: Yeah
EG: Right
RF: So, and then they decided they’d never do that again, but uh, the history of those types of things
are, is, is great. I mean when it goes back to uh, when they had a pavilion and then it’s the uh, got that
racetrack…
KK: Right…
RF: But uh, I do remember, uh, probably the late 50’s when they had a Jazz Festival, the Saugatuck Jazz
Festival, uh, at the racetrack there and uh, Duke Ellington and a few other celebrities were there and my
grandparents farm was kind of a, like a mile south of there, on 126th and uh, just about half a mile from
the corner of Blue Star and 126th, and with the windows open at night, I remember them introducing
Duke Ellington and them mentioning his name, that always stuck in my, stuck with me forever after that.
I thought, wow what would’ve been so great to be there…
KK: And that sound would carry over because it was all farms…
RF: Yes.
KK: Yeah.
RF: Pretty, quite open at that time.
EG: So you could hear? You could hear music and….
RF: I could, yes, yeah, not really well but some, yeah.
EG: Yeah.
RF: And prior to that it was a stock car track, a little dirt stock car track and there was uh, um, uh, auto
racing there. It was quite, for many years, it went on but uh, I never experienced that, I wish I had but
uh, [pause] um [pause]
KK: Any contact, uh at all, or anything you can share about contact with Oxbow or the people from
there?
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
8
RF: No, I never really knew about Oxbow until later I, I consider myself an art lover but I, I never really
knew about it. I wish that I had known more about it at a younger age but it’s a, it’s a great great thing
to have in the area.
KK: Yeah, it was more a private club…
RF: Way back!
KK: And it's interesting that you bring that up because you're not the first person who said ‘We really
didn't pay attention to it’.
RF: No, I never really knew much about it, till later years, and uh, but uh...
EG: Do you remember much of seeing many artists around? Seeing people painting in town, in Douglas
or Saugatuck, or?
RF: No, I always knew it was an art, artsy community but I didn't spend much time, you know, going
from shop to shop, I uh, really at that point in my life, I wasn't really that, I was more, uh, driving your
car, go to the beach, and uh that sort of thing, uh, and getting together with people, but uh, the art,
[pause] I know it existed but I never, I was never exposed to it.
[00:25:16]
KK: Then, what was the beach like then?
RF: Oh, it was great! Uh, there was, there was of course the Oval Beach, but then, the Douglas, Douglas
had a beach, and then there was several beach on down, uh, there were then. I never remembered big
crowds there like today. I have seen some photographs of big crowds but uh, but uh, it was a they were,
they were fairly well kept up and uh, and uh, it was quite a thing to go the Oval Beach was uh, was really
quite a special thing.
KK: Were you guys aware at all of the nude beach? Or did that come later?
RF: You know, I wasn't aware of that, I heard about it, no I heard about it. I did hear about it as a uh,
probably in the late 60’s I heard about it.
KK: Okay.
RF: But uh, that’s really the end of it there, I, I uh, wasn’t curious about that.
KK: Yeah, yeah. Had, had you ever been out on that Denison property with all those dunes?
RF: Yes! I have!
KK: Yeah that’s kind of, well talk about that a little bit, because that I think has to be seen to be believed.
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
9
RF: Well, its, its south of the mouth of the river. I, I did walk that and to the, to the uh, old light house, in
that area, and that's great. That was great country to explore and to follow it all the way up to the, to
bald head and then back down, it was a great, great experience and very natural area and uh, you could
see the old pilings in, in the pine and that little, where the channel was…
KK: Yeah, the lagoon, yeah.
RF: ...and the lagoon yeah and uh, and then uh, well of course there was the pier you could walk out on
that, but [pause] uh, [pause] it was a, you I considered it a great area, beautiful area but I never got to
the north side there north side of the channel where the Denison’s property was I never really saw that.
Uh…
KK: Well it was hard to get out there, always had to take that dug road…
RF: Yeah, Dugout road, yeah. I, my mother, in later years uh worked for uh Ken Denison and planted, I
think, she and another lady cleaned the boats when it was, when it, when they were in business out
there at the end and….
KK: You're talking Broward Marine…
RF: Broward Marine, yes, and, and they uh, uh, my mother planted a whole row of daffodils along the
bank there and was around long enough to see how nice they looked and uh, and uh, she thought the
Denison’s were great people, generous people and uh, [pause] uh, [pause] uh, [pause] only knew, she
knew the dad some but knew Ken more uh, but uh, never, I, I don’t know if the big house was built at
that time but there was a house there along with the uh, the [pause] marina and the business, but uh,
[pause] um, [pause]. The uh, [pause] well going back to the farm there uh, back then all the roads were
dirt roads pretty much uh, they hadn’t paved a lot of the roads there and uh, so you uh, that was a
[pause] a back in time compared to how it is today.
KK: Yeah, where did you go to school?
RF: I did go to school in Fennville that's where my family actually lived.
KK: So was it the old high school there, or?
RF: I did go in the old, to the old high school for a couple years, before it was uh, not used anymore but
uh, uh…
KK: And what about for a grade school was in Fennville also?
RF: Yep, that was also in Fennville, yeah, uh…
KK: I'm going to ask you a funny question…
RF: ...no, no it’s fine.
KK: Did, did you have Mrs. Northrup for any…
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
RF: Yes! Yes I did! [Laughs]
KK: [Laughs] Oh, that’s, so, she’s a real good close of mine, and um…
RF: Oh my gosh, how old is she?
KK: She’s about 93, er um, yep. She has dinner at my house every Monday, in fact she’ll be over
tonight…
[00:30:03]
RF: Really?
KK: I’ll have to mention you.
RF: She was my third grade teacher.
KK: But its, its, she, I was just telling, ah, somebody today uh, we go out with her quite often and no
matter where we go, she’s had every person…
RF: Oh, no doubt.
KK: She taught at, yeah, she taught in Fennville.
RF: Yes.
KK: Oh that’s kind of wonderful.
RF: She was a sweet lady, I, I can tell you that.
KK: And it was her family that owned, uh Sunny Shore.
RF: Oh, really?
KK: On [inaudible] the river road.
RF: See I thought, I thought they lived more out on the...south.
KK: They lived in Allegan, but it was her husband’s family that went there as kids.
RF: Okay, and she did have a son, that's true. Is that true? Yes?
KK: Ah, yep, yeah uh [inaudible] Jeff!
RF: Okay.
10
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
11
KK: Her son Jeff, he’s still around.
RF: Alright, alright.
KK: Yeah.
RF: Yeah.
KK: It’s a small world!
RF: Oh! It’s a lot smaller than you realize if you, if we really, I mean it, when I look at this, or even a
newer one I, I know so many of the people on these placards or I’m familiar with them.
KK: Well, it’s a small area, really.
RF: Yeah, well, for example uh, uh, this farm here this Ed Work farm…
KK: Mhm
RF: Mrs. Work, Mary Work, she was a teacher in the Saugatuck Douglas area for many years but then
she taught in Fennville. She, she uh, her family, her dads family were, were involved in the uh, basket
factory.
KK: Okay.
RF: The name, you probably have seen it.
KK: Yep!
RF: In concern, in relation to the basket factory, and uh, so and she she donated a ton of really great
photos of uh, the history of the area, I’m sure they’re in the archives.
KK: I’m sure they’re in the, I’m sure they’re in the collection.
EG: [Inaudible]
RF: Yeah they’re great.
KK: Well that's, that great, um, let’s see. Uh, well you brought a couple of other photos here so, why
don't we take a look, why don't you tell us, I see uh…
RF: Well, I have, I have to show you this photo here. This photo, and Mrs. Northrup would remember
this…
KK: I should’ve brought her!
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
12
RF: Well, anyway, this house is no longer there but if you're on the river road there, you go past where
sunny side...
KK: Sunny Shore, yeah.
RF: and you keep going East to, there’s a curve, where 62nd…
KK: Yep!
RF: ...Where...
KK: I know exactly where it is.
RF: This house used to be right on that, on the right hand side of that property. That property went way
back to a family named Purdy…
KK: Okay…
RF: Uh, Erastus Purdy he was a civil war veteran and he, he owned that property and they had a landing
down below, on the river uh, and a man named uh, one of his sons [inaudible] Purdy they had a boat
named after him, and uh he he was kind of a, well I don't know if it was just a tourist, tourist boat or if it
was a working boat, but anyway they had a landing there and uh, were I think way back there was
actually a trading post there, on that location right down below….
KK: Could be, yeah, because that's, you know, Mac’s Landing is down from there…
RF: Yes! Yeah, right it has, there's an association between that and Mac’s Landing…
KK: Okay…
RF: But uh…
KK: Yeah, that's very interesting.
RF: Yeah.
KK: That already looks like it had fallen on hard time there…
RF: Oh yes! Yes.
KK: Is that sand or is that snow in front? Is that a little bit of snow?
RF: It is snow.
EG: It looks like snow, yeah.
KK: Yeah it looks like it because I don't see uh, leaves on the tree there.
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
13
RF: But I’m sure it was a beautiful house at one time.
KK: Yeah!
EG: Yeah, lots of great shingle work in the gables and on the octagonal bay. Queen Anne revival…
RF: The uh, one of the daughters her, think it was her granddaughter of the original owner, her name
was Purdy and she had a friend of uh, she had somebody drive her to Saugatuck or wherever she
wanted to go, and the car was a Pierce-Arrow.
KK: Oh!
RF: Was a beautiful old Pierce-Arrow and uh my mother always remembered that because it, nobody
had a Pierce-Arrow.
KK: You know what, gosh, Joan Northrup told me a story about that car.
RF: I’ll bet.
KK: Yeah, and I, bet you she, she knew who the people were.
RF: Oh she would know that, yes! I know who the, uh, driver was the driver man’s name was uh, Cleo
Art and he lived just down, down 62nd, er 66th street there he had a farm down there and uh, he was
the driver and whenever she wanted to go somewhere, he would take her. But uh…
[00:35:04]
KK: That's great!
RF: Yeah.
KK: Tell us about your family, do you have children, er?
RF: I have two sons, yes!
KK: Okay.
RF: and uh, they don't live in the area, one’s in Rhode Island and ones in Grand Rapids, but uh, and they
they visit, or we visit them but uh, uh, but my family my mother uh, married a man from Fennville and
they started a little uh, my my dad and my uncle in the, actually before World War Two in the late 30’s
they started a little Mom and Pop grocery store meat market right on the main street where the Salt of
the Earth is…
KK: Oh! Okay!
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
14
RF: Yeah that was a, and then there’s a stairway going upstairs and then just to the, to the left of that
was a little clothing store which was operated by by um my dad and my uncles father, and he had that
since the uh early 20’s and uh then it was inherited by the next son and he ran it until the uh, late 60’s
and then my uh my dad and my uncle uh, when they were drafted in World War Two they, let the
people, the uh, there was a, there was a two brothers that uh, they purchased it, purchased it from they
took it back over again and ran it until they got back from the service and they took it back again.
KK: Oh that's interesting.
RF: Yeah, and uh but they they had a little grocery store there and so so myself and my brothers we
worked for them, worked in the store there and that sort of thing and uh…
KK: In Fennville, you know obviously where the downtown is and then you know, as you come west,
there’s, now it’s a parking lot but there’s a big empty area there, that’s you know, did that burn down?
What was there?
RF: No. Uh, well, at one time there was a bank on the uh, on the corner just uh, well it would be the
south, uh, south, uh, southeast corner.
KK: Yeah.
RF: …and then, and then no there was a hardware store quite a large hardware store, farm implements
on that corner and then next to that was a lumberyard…
KK: Oh!
RF: Yeah, going west and then next to that was the Fennville Herald newspaper house and it was real
small little newspaper office with, and they had to set the type by hand, it was quite a thing, and uh, uh
[pause] and then there was the business on the corner, Fennville tire but uh, yeah that was all
businesses in there and there were houses behind there was a row of houses.
KK: So what happened? Did it burn?
RF: No, no...
KK: They just tore it down?
RF: There were no fires, uh yeah, it just [pause] it they, they were very old and I’m not sure how, where
there was a [pause] in bad repair or the city bought it, I really don't know. I know the City now owns
that, a large chunk of that land and uh, the uh Salt of the Earth uses part of it for a parking lot or other
businesses but uh, yeah, there was a…
KK: I’m glad to know that, I always wondered…
RF: ...In the 60’s, in the 60’s it was a uh, it had had, a real upturn in economy, the canning factory was
going great guns, three shifts, and uh, and uh, employment was high and uh a lot of migrant workers
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
15
were there in the summer and on weekends streets were full of people and uh, and then it kind of went
down in the 70’s and 80’s and then that's just starting to come back again, yeah.
KK: That’s very, very interesting. You have over here, that you said that you have a boat picture here?
RF: Yeah this, this photo here [pause] this little sail boat was owned by a man named uh, Leo Tucker,
and he was a fruit farmer uh, down by, on Hutchins lake and, and the name of the boat was the Kit Kat
but it, it has a nice shot of the pavilion…
KK: ...Oh, it looks wonderful!
RF: ...and uh, and the uh, Coral Gables, and uh and uh this photo is my grandmother, uh, Otto Hines’
wife, Edith and it’s on top of Mount Bald Head and I’m going to say it’s not long after the pavilion was
built, she was born in the 1870’s, late 1870’s so, she was a young woman but uh, you can see one of the
large posts there, and uh, but you can see the pavilion and, and the two uh, [pause], parks….
[00:40:11]
KK: ...and I love that you can see the old bridge…
RF: Yes! The old bridge, yes...
KK: The old bridge is still there…
RF: Yeah, and so, and I did get this blown up and I’ve got a beautiful framed picture at home, those are
my grandparents there, and uh, they were farmers their whole lives, and uh, when this, when their farm
was built it was the first farm on that street 126th from 66th to Blue Star and that road was known as
Hines Road.
KK: Oh, really?
RF: Yeah.
KK: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, so you're lucky to have such nice photos…
RF: ...Yeah I am very lucky, these are, this is uh, uh a later picture with some vineyards in the front and
they moved the windmill to the back of the house, and er the well and uh, but uh, it was still horse and
buggy days, you can see buggy tracks here and uh, uh yeah that's pretty much…
KK: ...Really really wonderful, thank you for bringing those.
RF: Well…
KK: ...Do you have any more questions, that you have Eric, that were on the list that we were supposed
to ask?
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
16
EG: No, we moved through a good list of things. Lots of really great things some things we haven't heard
before…
RF: ...Well thanks…
EG: ...or that compliment things…
KK: Yeah no, it's fun and I’m, I’m going to get you together with Joan Northrup…
RF: Okay! I’d like that.
KK: Yeah.
EG: Anything else you’d like to say?
RF: Well, here's one thing I’d like to add. You know the pavilion was, was such a highlight of the, uh, my
parents and my, my grandfather Otto, he knew one of the uh, one of the uh, managers or something so
he could always get in, and he had four daughters so, I’m assuming they all got in, that would be six
people but at that time in history, and I don't know if you folks have ever heard this before, but and I, I
don’t bring it up to sound like I’m uh, anti-Semite or anything like that but, the seats were, were marked
‘Gentiles’ for Gentiles and for Jews and one time, I don't know if it was a little crowded or what but my
grandfather sat in a place where it said ‘For Jews’ and my mother will never forget this, she says a
woman came by and just sat right on his lap until he got up.
KK: No, there are, there are a lot of stories, it was very anti-Semitic, uh in Saugatuck and uh…
RF: ...Well, yeah, I don’t, I’m not aware of the uh, I know it was, there was a separation there…
KK: Yeah…
RF: But…
KK: They were not allowed, the Jews were not allowed to stay in a lot of the hotels…
RF: Oh, really?
KK: Yeah
RF: Okay
KK: Yeah, there’s some, there's some interesting, uh records of that and um, but uh that’s one story I
have not heard.
RF: Yeah
KK: I guess, I guess a lot would’ve come over on those boats, you know what I mean?
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
17
RF: From Chicago.
KK: From Chicago, yes, so you’d have to accommodate it.
RF: There were a few that uh, a few that were, that lived here. There were a few Jews that stayed here,
that were, almost like natives and uh, of course South Haven had a…
KK: Yes…
RF: ...had a larger population of that and uh, [pause] uh, the, the old Glen Shores Golf Club, I know this
because my Dad was best man with one of the sons of the owner who, who started the business just
before the depression and uh, he had big plans for it and everything and some of the print outs of uh,
advertising and everything he advertised it as a Christian place and he, he had a very subtle way of
saying, the, the Jews weren't necessarily welcome.
KK: It’s hard to imagine…
RF: ...It’s a novelty, it’s uh, it’s uh, it was a different world back then, and it was long before World War
Two.
EG: Do you remember much, and thinking along those same lines, do you remember much uh, African
American, People of Color in Saugatuck Douglas area?
RF: No, I don't. In, in school when I was growing up uh, we had two or three families and that was it and
uh, [pause] uh, [pause] um, [pause] I really don’t, I really don’t no.
EG: Not much, not much reaction…
[00:45:01]
RF: ...Oh no, no, uh, no not at all, uh, there was uh, there was a Jamaican man who worked for one of
the farmers there and I knew him a little bit. He used to come into town every, every uh every Saturday
to buy his groceries and he, his skin was almost purple you know he, he was very dark, and but he was
Jamaican and he uh, a good natured person and uh, hard working person and uh, he about the only uh,
man of color that we would see. The uh, Spanish, er uh, I shouldn't say Spanish I should say the Mexican
population, we always called them Spanish [pause] for some reason but Mexican is what they were, but
Mexican didn't sound right so people said Spanish for some reason...
KK: ...Well probably because that’s what they spoke…
RF: ...I suppose that’s it, and so, they started uh, their numbers have rapidly increased uh, in uh, in
recent years, and there were always Spanish people in school with us. Saugatuck was a little different,
that was a little more unique, it was a little more [pause] all [pause] Anglo, all uh, all white. Even to this
day it’s more that way, but uh…
KK: ...Well that’s really interesting.
�Raymond Foster - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Ken Kutzel
July 23 2018
18
EG: One other question that I’ve asked people as we’ve done these recordings. So we’re saving these,
with the idea that these will be around 50 plus years from now, so uh, thinking ahead, imagining
someone listening to this in uh, 2068 uh, are there, is there anything you’d like them to know about your
life or the community here, as it is today?
RF: I can just say that, that I can’t complain about anything, I learned a good work ethic, working for my
grandparents and uh, and my parents taught me a good work ethic and uh, I think that was a big benefit
for me growing into adulthood but on the other side, I got to see, I got to see a great community kind of
evolve into a more modern day, uh, [pause] uh, [pause] place and, and those are great memories, but I
also have the memories that my parents and grandparents uh, told me about how it was back then in
the horse and buggy days and uh, but uh, [pause] I guess I’d just like to say that it was a great place to
grow up, uh, a great place to experience. The summers were uh, the winters were kind of brutal but the
summers were, summers were great, and uh, Lake Michigan, to have Lake Michigan and uh, the sand
dunes and uh, [pause] the river and everything it was a great experience and uh, no regrets.
KK: Good!
RF: I guess that I would regret that I didn't ask more questions uh, to my grandparents, uh, to try to
absorb a little more information but uh, uh, but uh, other than that I have no regrets. It was great, and I
love being able to talk to someone that experienced the same things I did, and uh, relate to the same
things, those are always fun, but uh, this historical society is doing everything it can to preserve these
things and, I, I salute them for that, that's a great thing.
KK: Well thank you very much!
RF: Thank you.
EG: You're more than welcome. Alright, well with that, that will conclude this interview. Thanks again.
RF: Thank you.
[00:49:24]
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
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Image
Text
Language
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English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-07_SD-FosterR-20180723
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Foster, Raymond Edward
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-23
Title
A name given to the resource
Raymond Foster (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Ray Foster grew up on a family farm near Douglas, Michigan. In this interivew, Foster remembers the motorcycle gangs driving through town during summer holiday weekends, the rock music festival in 1968, and the Saugatuck Jazz Festival.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer)
Kutzel, Ken (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Holland (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Beaches
Music festivals
Motorcycle gangs
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/db8c556ec34f40d5fdd858402b00bc2a.mp3
823b012ab485d3ffa05d112e3595a836
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ac41182e39d0662fa48c3ecb0a6e95c7.pdf
5d53b77f656dc27c6abbc7d4c8d66c7f
PDF Text
Text
Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
1
Katelyn Bosch: This is Katelyn Bosch and I'm here today with Jane Underwood at the Saugatuck Douglas
History Center in Douglas Michigan on the 8th of October 2018. This oral history is being collected as part
of the Stories of Summer Project which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for
the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. I am
interested to learn more about your family experiences in the summer at Saugatuck Douglas area. Can
you please tell me your full name and spell it.
Jane Underwood: Okay. Jane Underwood J A N E U N D E R W O O D
KB: Alright, so Jane, when and how did your family first come to Saugatuck Douglas?
JU: Well, my father’s family would spend the summer. There were two hotels up in Macatawa on either
side of the channel and my grandparents and my father and his sister and older brother would spend
the summer up there. My grandmother loved the idea of the hotel, she could play bridge with her
friends in the afternoon. They had all their meals there and one afternoon according to family lore my
grandfather announced that he had bought property in Saugatuck and they were going to build a tent
there. Well my grandmother, Mae [inaudible] Underwood was not very happy about that. Saugatuck
was considered very bohemian with all those artists.
[KB laughs]
JU: I think my grandmother was a bit of a snob.
[KB laughs]
JU: But, as it turned out. My grandfather pushed ahead and they started out in what was called a tent.
It had a wooden floor and about three feet was wood and then they had canvas and but they had a real
roof. Eventually, it became my large playhouse. As the years went on they built a cottage and seemingly
every years, they added a room onto it, and as my father told me my grandfather wanted some peace
and quiet, so he’d add another bedroom or two, for guests, and that was the family cottage until 1960
when unfortunately it burned out after the building was burned down. But, in the meantime the family
summered in there, and enjoyed it. My grandfather used to row my grandmother down the river to the
big pavilion where they would dance. It was quite a place. That’s the building that burned down that
caused my cottage, family cottage to burn down.
KB: So, your cottage burned during the same fire as the pavilion?
JU: Yes.
KB: Oh, okay.
JU: The embers went across the river. There was a window switch and uh, my family cottage was the
other building to burn but there were numerous fires in the woods.
KB: Oh, okay.
JU: But, the family enjoyed the cottage. My grandparents died and my father bought his sister out of her
share so it became my family’s college and we always came up the end of, well the last week of April to
open up the cottage. And we were there until, uh I would go back to school, and I was starting school
and we’d close the cottage up, usually Columbus Day weekend which would be today.
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
2
KB: Oh, yeah!
JU: Yes, so, because the cottage really wasn't winterized.
KB: Oh, yeah. At this time of year, you don't want to go much past this time of the year, in a cottage
that’s not winterized.
JU: We had a furnace, but it wasn’t insulated or anything. But um, growing up, spending the summers in
Saugatuck, it was just a magical time, basically. There were all kinds of things for children to do. Um, as I
got older I would start taking dance lessons from the Gallis’, ballet and tap. Art classes from Cora Bliss
Taylor usually uh, Saturday and Wednesday for art classes and I’ve often said that Cora Bliss Taylor, all
teachers and professors I had through way past post graduate work, she was probably the best teacher I
ever had. She could take a group of oh, kind of let’s say rambunctious children, we weren’t unruly, well
there might have been one or two. But she could settle us down, and we would produce art work. I, I
will never be exhibiting at the Art Institute but it certainly made me appreciative of artwork and in my
travels I never miss an art museum.
[00:05:02]
KB: Absolutely, yeah.
JU: All over the world. But, um, there's [pause] ceramics lessons from Jean Goldsmith, um, I think I really
did know how to swim but I did take swimming lessons over at Oval Beach.
KB: Oh, wow.
JU: And uh, there was all a old man as a lifeguard and there was an old wooden row boat and he took
us, he dropped us in the water. You know what? Everyone started swimming, of course they wouldn't
do that today.
KB: Yeah! No!
JU: I mean thinking about it, it’s just kind of like, oh my gosh.
[KB laughs]
JU: You know the liability and that.
KB: Right.
JU: But, those were different days and usually the, all the classes were in the morning and in the
afternoon we’d go over to the beach and I'm paying the price now with skin cancers. Uh, 73 over at Oval
Beach, but I still go over there and then I started sailing. We had an outboard boat which I learned how
to run even though I wasn't supposed to take it out. But, I’d get my friends and we didn’t always have
life preservers but we had fun on the water, and then my parents bought me the sailboat and I started
sailing at the Saugatuck Yacht Club, and I’m still sailing there.
KB: So you got some good use out of all the resources in Saugatuck.
JU: Oh! It’s a, Saugatuck, its, for children in my day and I think it's still true today. It was just so many
things to do.
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
3
KB: Mhm.
JU: And one thing that is different now, families came up and stayed for the entire summer.
KB: Right.
JU: The fathers might stay in the city and come up on weekends, but the mothers and children were
here for two, two and a half months.
KB: Mhm. Yeah.
JU: And that's not the case anymore. People only come up for a short period of time because so many
of the children are in soccer or, whatever else there in.
KB: Yeah. It's, too many obligations back.
JU: Yeah, exactly.
KB: Yeah.
JU: But we still have a lot of children at the yacht club taking sailing lessons. It’s fun.
KB: Well what was your in initial impression? Do you remember what you, when you first saw
Saugatuck?
JU: I was an infant. [Laughs]
KB: Oh, okay so you don’t have any memories then?
JU: No, but always coming when I’d get off, well now especially getting off the expressway and going
down Ferry Street and Park Street, it's always felt like home.
KB: Mhm, yeah.
JU: Even though I had a home in Chicago.
KB: Yeah.
JU: It’s just this was the place, a friend of mine said Saugatuck’s always been her happy place. It just,
there’s a feeling of, I don't know optimism, and fun, and friends and just a lot going on, its fun.
KB: yeah.
JU: My friends in Chicago when I said I was going to live most of the time in Saugatuck after I retired
said well what are you going to do? I mean, I said well, there’s plenty to do, in the winter it’s just there's
[pause] right now. This week I’m going to be out, oh let’s see, I've been see in the last six nights and I got
three more nights to go.
KB: [Laughs] busy social schedule.
JU: Yes, exactly.
KB: Yeah, uh, can you share any particular memories about living here? Things or moments that are
especially memorable for you either good or bad?
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
4
JU: Well, I can remember when a building across the road from my cottage was fire and we thought our
cottage was going to go.
KB: Oh.
JU: Yeah, my father moved the car down to Mount Baldhead and we went and sat in our boat, which
was right on the river there. Uh, they seem to have a lot of fires.
KB: Yeah it sounds like it.
JU: Exactly, exactly.
KB: And it was ultimately taken by a fire.
JU: Mhm, well wooden buildings, it’s, it’s always been a problem.
KB: Yeah. Um, were there any other places or institutions that were important to you in Saugatuck
Douglas? Or places, key places that you hold dear memories?
JU: So many places, Oval beach. The yacht club, sailing and the Pump House Museum. Um, just, there's
just so many nice things in this community.
KB: Mhm.
JU: and so many people.
KB: Yeah.
JU: And uh, and people work together.
KB: Right.
JU: We're trying to save as much of the environment as we can. Um, we lost the Presbyterian Camp, to
development. So many of the huge big trees have been cut down and taken out, it’s just, it’s kind of
worrisome.
KB: Yeah.
JU: Although someone said, well your family is here and they probably cut down some trees to build the
cottages.
[00:10:06]
KB: Yeah.
JU: But [pause] I guess that's life.
KB: It feels worse when it’s a larger development then?
JU: Yeah.
KB: One cottage, or? I, I, understand.
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
5
JU: And then they’re just tearing up the, the dunes, the dunes have always just been so beautiful and
the wildlife, I mean just now coming over here I saw some deer, I saw some wild turkeys the other day.
KB: Mhm.
JU: It's just kind of a, a special place.
KB: Yeah, definitely. [Pause] How do you think, things other, well you’ve kind of talked about how
somethings have changed in your whole experience with Saugatuck. Are there anything else that stick
out as things that have changed or stayed the same in this area?
JU: Well, people used to come as I said, and stay for longer periods of time, especially the cottage
people. Now, so many of the cottages are seasonal rentals. Just around my house, my cottage, um, I live
by a summer hotel which has been there even before my family college was built over a hundred years
ago. But the cottages are all, for the most part seasonal rentals, and you don't know people who own it
anymore.
KB: Right.
JU: You have to kind of go find out who it is.
KB: Mhm, yeah.
JU: And it's kind of worrisome because I think a community can kind of lose its cohesiveness, when you
have so many summer, or rentals, short term rentals.
KB: Right.
JU: I know people want to make money, and uh they buy property and they figure then can, you know
rent them out, pay the mortgage or whatever.
KB: Mhm.
JU: I think that's something that maybe the city fathers really need to look at.
KB: Yeah, definitely. Did you have any summer jobs while you were here?
JU: No, not when I was here, I started working uh, when I was in college at the Museum of Science and
Industry.
KB: Okay.
JU: And uh, if you quit during the summer they were, not going to hire you back. Well I quit my first year
in the middle of August and um, I wanted some time before I went back to college, and my mother
called me and said she’d gotten a call from the museum, would I work Thanksgiving and Christmas. So, I
did that for, for the four years.
KB: Oh, okay, yeah.
JU: It was a great job, I mean my highest salary was 99 cents an hour.
KB: [Laughs] When was that?
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
6
JU: This was in 1963.
KB: Okay.
JU: and it wasn’t much, but it was just so interesting. I got you to do back up VIP tours. Which means I
walk with the, um, Secret Service.
KB: Oh.
JU: Visiting dignitaries coming to Chicago that was one of the favorite places to take them because
Museum of Science and Industry is world famous.
KB: Yeah.
JU: It's patterned after the Deutsches Museum in Munich and um, that was really kind of interesting.
KB: Yeah.
JU: One of the best parts was I’d get to have lunch in the executive dining room.
KB: Really?
JU: The director of the museum would be would be with the VIP and then I will be tagging along with the
secret service. That was fun, I enjoyed that.
KB: [Laughs] That sounds fun. So you were a teacher by training?
JU: Yes.
KB: So you taught in Chicago?
JU: I taught in Chicago, at my Alma Mater!
KB: Oh!
JU: South Shore High School and there's quite a few of us here in the Saugatuck area who graduated
from South Shore High School on the South side of Chicago and um.
KB: You all ended up in Saugatuck?
JU: Well, for various, and yeah, if you, Chicago, if you lived on the South side, you’d go away in the
summer to Michigan. If you lived on the North side, the chances were very good you’d go up to
Wisconsin.
KB: Mhm, yeah.
JU: And if you lived on the West side or the west suburbs, [pause] you had a choice.
KB: Yeah.
JU: But many of them can to Saugatuck. Shorewood, which is a development over on the lake is mostly
people from the Oak Park area originally. I don’t know if you've interviewed anyone from there or not.
KB: I'm not sure. I haven’t, but we might have somebody else who has.
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
7
JU: Okay, I have a friend who probably should have interviewed because um, their family cottage I think
was started in 1926.
KB: Oh wow.
JU: In Shorewood.
KB: Okay.
JU: And they still have the, the original cottage. I was just talking to her this morning.
KB: That’s amazing, what’s her name?
JU: Uh, Lucy Reinege Hoight.
[00:15:00]
KB: Okay we’ll see if we can get her interviewed.
JU: Yeah, she’d have to come up here and uh, she was supposed to come up this last weekend to help
out with the benefit that we had but she had a cold and so better stay in Barrington.
KB: [Laughs] Yeah, um if you stayed in Saugatuck, did you ever go to Douglas? Or if you stayed in
Douglas did you ever go to Saugatuck?
JU: Well, Saugatuck and Douglas have a rather unusual relationship. Um, childhood friend of mine, she
was born in Chicago but she came here when she was quite young with her parents and she fell in love
with a gentleman from Douglas. Before they got married she said, Jane I can’t live in Douglas! I mean,
I’m from Saugatuck! Well, they eventually did live in Douglas, but it's kind of, it’s kind of hard to explain.
I mean if you're from Saugatuck, you're from Saugatuck.
KB: Mhm.
JU: If you’re from Douglas, [pause] what can I say? I mean I have go through Douglas to go to downtown
Saugatuck.
KB: Yeah [Laughs]
JU: Because I live across the river.
KB: Oh yeah.
JU: And Campbell road is the dividing line.
KB: Yeah.
JU: I, I met some friends at church recently and I said where do you live and she said Douglas, I said oh
that’s too bad, and then we all started to laugh. I shouldn’t have said that. Douglas is a neat town, and I
have many friends in Douglas too.
KB: [Laughs]
JU: But there’s that rivalry.
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
8
KB: Hm, yeah.
JU: I don't know if you heard it from other people or not, but uh.
KB: I have.
JU: Oh, okay.
KB: It’s interesting because they’re so close, but yet very distinct.
JU: Well, Saugatuck’s always been the tourist town.
KB: Yeah.
JU: And Douglas was more of, you know, people who lived here, and for a long time downtown Douglas
looked like kind of, well, then a group got together. Really it’s just the, you know, the main street is
here, its lovely.
KB: Yeah.
JU: Interesting stores, and they, you know, they decorate and you might have heard about big parade
over holiday, the 27th.
KB: I have.
JU: Yes.
KB: Yes.
JU: We call it the adult parade.
KB: [Laughs]
JU: There was a children's parade in Saugatuck in the afternoon, and we have fun over here every
evening.
KB: Yeah, interesting.
JU: I can remember when I’d practically know everyone in the Douglas parade. But now it’s gotten so big
that it’s just, humongous. Just to find a place to park to go and stand on the sidewalk is, a major
undertaking.
KB: Is it because of out of town people? Or because the town has grown?
JU: It’s a lot of people from up for the weekend.
KB: Okay.
JU: It’s, it's the last big weekend really of the season.
KB: Mhm, yeah.
JU: And a lot of people come from the surrounding communities.
KB: Okay.
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
9
JU: Saugatuck Douglas we have kind of a, [pause] risqué kind of, many people feel we’re [pause] Sodom
and Gomorrah?
KB: [Laughs] That’s an interesting comparison.
JU: Yeah, I, there’s some people, there are people that are very very religious and strict. I can remember
when Holland was dry. I can remember when Holland, nobody would even answer their telephones on
Sunday. All the stores were closed.
KB: Mhm.
JU: And people in Holland would come down to Saugatuck to make merry.
KB: [Laughs]
JU: And then Holland started relaxing. Meijer’s opened on Sunday.
KB: Oh.
JU: Woo! That was, and then just maybe the last 15 or 18 years Family Fare opened up on Sunday.
KB: Mhm.
JU: And you would think the world was coming to an end. I mean some people were just, so, they were
just terribly, terribly upset.
KB: Hm, I can imagine.
JU: Holland’s changing. I mean you, I think you can even get liquor in Holland on Sunday now.
KB: During certain hours, I think there are still some hours like in the morning where you can’t.
JU: Well there’s, there’s laws, I think.
KB: That might be Zeeland.
JU: Okay, DeMond’s cannot sell liquor until noon on Sunday.
KB: Yes, yep.
JU: So you don't want go there around noon to get, you know, a, a loaf of bread, because the line
sometimes can be…
KB: Oh really?
JU: Way too long, yes. From the people who are going to buy.
KB: Interesting.
JU: Liquor. But I mean, the whole country is, I don’t know, we have these laws, new laws and things like
that, that just [pause] Saugatuck always did well with the Holland people coming down to drink.
[00:20:05]
KB: Huh, they didn't have any animosity towards them or anything?
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
10
JU: The Holland people? No, they just take the money to the bank.
KB: Yeah.
JU: Money is money.
KB: Money is money. I want to go back to what you said about taking lessons from Cora Bliss Taylor. Did
you get any other interactions with our community?
JU: Well we used to go down to Oxbow, um, at the end of the season they always had what they called
the burial of the year. They would have a cement plaque that they would bury and walk about what
went on through the year, and uh, that was always kind of fun ceremony.
KB: Oh, interesting.
JU: Recently they’ve had um, what they call the open studio nights, on Friday nights?
KB: Right.
JU: Where it’s Oxbow but you can go down there. I mean I've wondered around there, probably legally
and illegally all my life. Uh, I met a woman at a meeting or something and I said, you know, when you
met someone around here, where you live and she said on Oxbow Lagoon, and I said oh! With the pier?
And she said yes, I said, oh, I’ve, I’ve sat on that pier. Well the fact of the matter is that there's several
no trespassing signs there…
[KB laughs]
…and she looked at me, and I said well, you know, I, I’ve gone down there and she said, you and
everybody else in this town!...
[KB laughs]
…well we’ve become very good friends. Even though I was trespassing on her property…
KB: [Laughs] She could see past that.
JU: Yes, eventually. Yeah, you wander around as kids you, you just, you know, you kind of go where
you’re going to go.
KB: Mhm. Um, did you spend time, near the water? And did you participate in any activities around the
waterfront?
JU: Oh, yes. Always. My parents had a little wooden outboard motor boat and as soon as I was strong
enough to pull that cord on that 5 ½ horsepower Johnson, I was off.
[KB laughs]
JU: My parents never caught me at it, I was, I was careful and then course I’ve been sailing.
KB: Mhm, yeah.
JU: Since I was twelve years old.
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
11
KB: Yeah.
JU: I love to go out sailing.
KB: It’s a good place for sailing.
JU: Yes it is.
KBL Yeah.
JU: I’ve tipped the sailboats over a few times and uh, maybe I’ll do it again, who knows?
KB: [Laughs] Maybe. How, how would you describe Saugatuck Douglas to somebody never been here
before?
JU: Well, it's kind of a world away. Some people call it the New England or the Cape Cod of the Midwest.
Its community where people, we have artists, we have sailors, we have environmentalists, uh we have
tree huggers, which I'm one of. Um, and we can come together on a project. Sometimes we can fight
each other on the things, um, but it’s a community that cares.
KB: Mhm.
JU: And that's I think, the most important thing.
KB: Mhm.
JU: Sometimes in big cities you kind of lose out that, you know caring for people, you know, what can
you do to help people.
KB: Yeah.
JU: In a small town you know people. When you hear a siren, you kind of wonder, you know, uh oh,
could it be somebody you know. When they're racing up to Oval Beach past my cottage, I’m, I’m kind of
worried that someone in trouble in the water.
KB: Yeah.
JU: You know, you just, things like that bother you.
KB: Absolutely. [Pause] Um. Can you tell us some of your, well, we’ve talked about memories of being
here in the summer. Do you have any favorite memories that stand out?
JU: Well see let's my mother had a rule that she did not, since the kitchen in the cottage was not like
kitchen in Chicago. Oh, I can remember when we had an ice box when I was very very young and the ice
man didn't come and was it hot.
KB: Oh.
JU: And my mother said, we’re getting an electric refrigerator and we did that afternoon. But, my
mother had a rule, we ate out, Thursday night, Sunday night, and Tuesday night, for dinner. So we would
frequent the various restaurants in town because my mother said it was no vacation for her.
KB: Right.
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
12
JU: If she had to cook every night. Exactly, and um…
KB: So she spread it out.
JU: Oh yes, we would eat out three nights a week.
KB: Did you have a restaurant?
[00:25:00]
JU: Well, Louise Easton had a great restaurant on water the front. It's, walked a plank to get there, it’s
where the Mermaid is now, and we used to go to Tera and let’s see, where else was a favorite place?
Mount Baldhead Hotel a Thursday night, they called French Buffet, it was good.
KB: That sounds good.
JU: It was really good, ah, and you could sit on the swings on the porch. The Mount Baldhead Hotel
burned in 59 as I remember it, 58 or 59, sounds about right. But, um, and we’d often go out for
breakfast. The old rail grill had really good French toast. It was just yummy, we’d take the ferry across
and the old rail was right there at the other side by the ferry. And um, we used to eat out a lot. As I said,
my mother just, it was no vacation for her.
KB: Yeah, that makes sense.
JU: Yes, she enjoyed eating out. We did a lot of eating out in Chicago too as I remember.
KB: In everyday not vacation life.
JU: Yeah, it, hey, makes life easier.
KB: It does.
JU: We’ve always had good restaurants here in Saugatuck.
KB: Yeah. There’s still some good ones.
JU: Mhm.
KB: Did you get into any types of shenanigans? And were you a participant, instigator, or bystander?
JU: Hm, let’s skip that question.
KB: [Laughs]
JU: I’ve, I’ve gotten into things over the years, uh, probably still getting into things. But uh, no I had a
group and we had fun, let’s put it that way.
KB: You enjoy it.
JU: Yeah, we’d be out by the boat, and we’d see the police patrol, and uh more than once I had to
beach the boat because we were probably lacking in life preservers.
KB: Oh.
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
13
JU: Yeah, that's, that's one of the things.
KB: What was your impression of law enforcement? Did you feel comfortable around them?
JU: Yeah? I mean, I didn't have much interaction with them.
KB: Okay.
JU: The Justice of the Peace was a family friend, um, he used to hold court. Um, just, we did have an
intruder one time. Uh, on our porch in the middle of the night and we called the police, they came and
he ran off. He did two or three times and then finally our neighbor Bill Bors who owned the Beachway
Hotel at the time, came with his old civil war rifle.
[KB laughs]
And held him until the police came. And they got him down, I think he, the guy was high on drugs.
KB: Oh.
JU: Took him over to Allegan, and the police said, well you don’t have to go over, I mean, it’s like 3
o’clock in the morning. But he got bailed out the next day.
[KB laughs]
Turns out he was some kind of a big wig from some company over in Detroit, I think he had some acid or
something that made him just nuts. But he, was just coming up on our porch and there were no steps,
you had to kind of swing up on it.
KB: That must have been kind of scary.
JU: It was, I went down and got a rake, a metal rake, and I was going to go swinging at him.
[KB laughs]
Now people, Saugatuck’s gotten kind of wild but you know the riots that they talk about, they passed
over my head. The, you know, the Jazz festival things and stuff like that. Living over on the other side it
was always, we didn’t really hear about it. We’d read about it in the newspaper. The next day or
something like that but it was, it was kind of world of its own. It was the summer people.
KB: Mhm.
JU: And your friends, and that was about it.
KB: Yeah.
JU: We’d go to town every day to get the mail. I still have to get my mail at the post office. As a friend of
mine, who’s since died said, you can spend half a morning going to the post office and meeting your
friends and talking, finding out what's going on. It’s true.
KB: [Laughs] That actually leads well into my next question, which is, what do you remember about the
social life, uh, being here in the summer and who did you socialize with?
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
14
JU: Well let's see, um, people that I would take classes with. There were parties, parties, church parties,
uh, yacht club parties. Bonfire parties on the beach. Um, it was always just kind of, a, a gang of kids.
KB: Okay.
JU: And you just had a great time.
KB: Yeah.
JU: Some of them are of still around.
[00:30:00]
KB: [Laughs] That’s awesome. So now um, I have a few questions about looking into the future.
JU: Okay.
KB: For Saugatuck and what your hopes are. So, um, well my, my first question is what are some of your
hopes for the future for yourself and for your community?
JU: Well, I would like to see [pause] more people living here and not just renting out their homes
because I think you lose the sense of community.
KB: Right.
JU: Um, some neighborhoods up on the hill are mostly rentals and people are getting concerned about
that. Now my area has been rentals for a long time. But, I think they're going to have to some rules and
regulations on the rentals.
KB: Hm, yeah.
JU: It’s not going to be popular with the people that are doing it, but uh, the community could lose its
soul.
KB: Right.
JU: If we have too many people moving in an out all the time.
KB: Yeah.
[Phone rings]
JU: Julie let me you call.
KB: And what you do think you have the greatest needs currently are facing, the community, which is
kind of a similar question.
JU: Well I do know the school needs more children if they’re going to continue in running really excellent
educational program. I’m saying this as a teacher too.
KB: Right.
JU: And that they need families.
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
15
KB: Mhm.
JU: And that's a problem because property in Saugatuck and Douglas is expensive.
KB: Right. Right.
JU: The tourist trade and the second home people. Um, very few children come from Saugatuck and
Douglas, most of the children's in the school, I think are coming from the township.
KB: Oh yeah.
JU: But they need, need more families, with children in the schools. The schools, I mean they’re
incredibly um, talented teachers, administrators, they just need more students.
KB: Yeah. [Laughs]
JU: That’s, the problem is the cost of housing.
KB: Yeah, absolutely.
JU: I see that definitely just looking at the prices of homes in the newspapers and the ads and things like
that.
KB: Mhm yeah, big problem.
JU: And we have to protect our environment.
KB: Mhm. Yeah.
JU: That’s, that’s really so important. That we [pause] we don’t want to lose the beauty of the area. I
mean that’s what attracts people.
KB: Right.
JU: The fact that we were able to protect the property from Oval Beach to the piers was amazing, and
the late senator Patty Berkholtz was so important in that, in raising money. She died this past spring.
We’re mourning her loss because she was so important in that, trying to protect the property.
KB: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, remembering that this interview is going to be saved for a long time.
JU: Mhm.
KBL Uh, when somebody listens to this tape, say in 50 years from now. What would you like them to
most know about your life and community right now?
JU: My life in the community? Well I think everyone in a community has to give back to their
community. In volunteer work, or donating money for good causes, that’s what makes a community
vibrant and I hope I can continue to do that.
KB: Yeah. That’s great, and also do you have any um, advice for a young person who might listen to this
tape?
�Jane Underwood – Interviewed by Katelyn Bosch
October 8, 2018
16
JU: Get involved in things. Work for good. Whether its social issues, political issues, whatever, whatever
you can do to make it a better world.
KB: Mhm, yeah.
JU: Because the people that are just for themselves, I feel sorry for them. You’ve got to give back.
KB: Absolutely, that’s great.
JU: Okay.
KB: So that concludes my questions, do you know anything else that you want share that you didn’t get
a chance to?
JU: Well, let’s see. [Pause] I can’t think of anything, I think I’ve hit all the points I wanted to make.
KB: Okay. Sounds great. Well thank you so much for being here and sharing your memories with me.
This concludes our interview.
[00:34:58]
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-07_SD-UnderwoodJ-20181008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Underwood, Jane
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-08
Title
A name given to the resource
Jane Underwood (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Jane Underwood's grandparents and father came to Saugatuck during the summertime. They stayed in a hotel in Macatawa before buying property in Saugatuck. In this interview, Jane reflects on her own experiences summering and sailing in the area and then moving to Saugatuck during her retirement.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Bosch, Katelyn (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Holland (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Sailing
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
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Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
Part 1
Eric Gollannek: This is, this is Eric Gollanneck.
Meghann Stevens: And Meghann Stevens.
EG: And I’m here today with…
Dawn Schumann: Dawn Schumann.
EG: At the Douglas, uh, Saugatuck Douglas History Center, the old school house in Douglas Michigan on
July 21st, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project which is
supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage
Program.
DS: Oh, I didn’t know that.
EG: Thank you for taking the time to talk with us today. Um, we’re interested in learning more about
your family history in particular experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Focusing on
summer. Uh, can you please say your full name and spell it for us.
DS: My full name.
EG: Yes.
DS: Dawn D A W N, Schwartz S C H W A R T Z, Follet F O L L E T T Goshorn G O S H O R N, Schuman S C H
U M A N N.
EG: There we go.
DS: That enough?
EG: For the record, wonderful, thank you. So, kind of jumping right in, tell us a little bit about your
earliest experiences, memories coming to Saugatuck Douglas area.
DS: Well, I'm not sure I remember it too well.
[00:01:26]
Part 2
Eric Gollannek: This is, this is Eric Gollanneck.
Meghann Stevens: And Meghann Stevens.
EG: And I’m here today with…
Dawn Schumann: Dawn Schumann.
1
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
2
EG: Uh, at the Saugatuck Douglas History Center in Douglas Michigan on July 21st, 2018. Uh, continuing
our oral history from part one, um previously. Um, so you were speaking a little bit about uh, the, the
Bible Camp, family camp…
DS: Oh.
EG: …and…
DS: Yeah, uh, Frank Bible, I would, came to the camp with Frank and Muriel Bible and because her
daughter, their daughter was my best friend. We were, oh it was probably 1945? 46? And uh, they had
great history with the camp. Uh, Louise's grandfather had been head of the far east Presbyterian, and
um, had Frank had been born in China. When they had to leave the country because of all of the
warring factions, etcetera. They came directly to the church camp. Where Frank Bible’s father basically
ran the show and worked with Jane Adams worked with all the others just start setting up the format of
the camp. So, he, Frank was a young boy and he was the lifeguard and at the nearby Oxbow, was this
very lovely Muriel whose father was a famous artist. And they met around the camp fire and this was
very much the way of life in the church camp because the camp fires were really big part of our lives. In
the process of being allowed the freedom to run in the woods and to run the whole area. We made our
way, at one particular time over as far as the Kalamazoo River, the new entrance to the Kalamazoo.
EG: [Laughs] Right.
DS: It was put in, begun in 1904, but at that point it was still called the new entrance.
MS: [Laughs]
EG: Right.
DS: The new channel, and we were messing around and playing in um, uh, the area right opposite
Singapore. We ran into one time, we ran into um, blue flow shards, a blue flow China. And another time,
Indian arrowheads, when we were working in another part, or, not working but playing in another part.
We took the back to the church camp because we wanted to, this was exciting stuff.
MS: Yeah.
EG: Mhm.
DS: And um, they were, there were people there that had been in that camp since the teens. Okay? And
they had, they were thrilled to see this, they never seen this, this kind of a [inaudible]. So they put it in a
little museum that we had, along with, with a lot of other history. The museum is now been destroyed,
to make a way for [sighs]
MS: Yeah.
DS: Housing development, and so life goes on. But, Louise and I in the early 50s went on to wait tables,
for three dollars a month.
[all laugh]
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
3
DS: And all you could eat, and they did houses. In the dormitory that we were housed in was up at the
top of a dune that was almost as high as um, Mount Baldy.
EG: Mhm.
DS: So you can you can picture running up, and down.
MS: Oh gosh. [Laughs]
DS: Well…
EG: You’d be in good shape.
MS: Yeah.
DS: Be in very good shape.
[All laugh]
DS: Well the pavilion was still going strong, and that time and we got taken by the couple of the boys
from camp to go over to the pavilion dancing, and I have to tell you that was thrill.
EG: I’ll bet.
DS: I mean they no longer have the big orchestras and it was probably not as, as elegant as it has been
when my grandparents were there.
EG: Mhm.
DS: In 1911 and 12 and 13, they’d just take the steamer over.
EG: Right.
DS: Anyway, so that was great fun to be able to actually dance there and see what it was like, and of
course cry when it burned down…
EG and MS: Yeah.
DS: …Just a few years later. One time Louise and I were [coughs] interested in getting a pineapple soda.
[All laugh]
DS: …So we made our way to the ferry, now the ferry was not the ferry that you know today.
EG: The chain ferry?
DS: The chain ferry.
EG: Right.
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
4
DS: Well but it wasn’t the chain ferry then.
EG: Okay.
DS: It was a two sided rowboat.
EG: Okay.
MS: Oh.
DS: The chain was down there.
EG: Right.
DS: But, the, the big huge um, oh gosh what do you call it? Took the people across it was a large flat
boat.
EG: Like a barge.
[00:05:01]
MS: Yeah.
DS: A barge, that’s the word. A large, flat barge that could take um, horses and carriages and famers
wagons and what have you across that was no longer there. It was just two sided rowboat, and let me
tell you the problem was that the guy, the ferry man, Tim the ferry man was a tippler…
MS: Oh.
EG: Okay.
DS: …and so we explained to him that we had to be back at camp in 45 minutes. So we had half an hour
to go, get our soda’s and then we come back right away, and please be ready to take us back so we were
weren’t late.
EG: Mhm.
DS: We got back, no Tim in sight. We went, we ran as fast as we could do it every bar town and there
were a few.
EG: Right.
DS: And he wasn’t anywhere we could find, he wasn’t in back at the boat, so we had to swim. The river.
EG: Wow!
DS: And this was in August and it had been a very rainy July, like it is today. So there was a current.
EG: Yeah.
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
5
DS: Well we were both very strong swimmers, we had been swimming in Lake Michigan…
EG: Mhm.
DS: …since we were children and in High School we were both on the swim team and doing, uh, water
ballet. So we were pretty strong swimmers. Well, we got aw, out, we made it across with a lot of, I mean
it was really tough. But we got across up somewhere around the um, where the museum is now.
MS and EG: Mhm.
DS: The pump house.
EG: Yeah.
MS: Yeah.
DS: And when we got out, we were covered in, tan sticky, gunk.
MS and EG: Oh!
DS: I mean in our hair, and every part of oh our, oh, it was awful and it smelled. I mean it smelled really
bad. Well, we went running back to camp because we were really late.
MS: Yeah.
DS: And there's something, you know Perryman goes along to the Oval, well running parallel is
something called the um, the ministers walk and so we didn't want to be seen because we were such a
mess. And so we ran through the, the path that was through the woods that was the ministers walk. We
got to camp, ran up the top of the dune, did our bathing and um, tried hard to get to get off this, sticky,
oily, gunky, smelly stuff.
EG: Yeah.
DS: We did the best we could, we get down there to serve lunch and Papa T took one look at us and
smelled us, and said what have you been doing? And we just said, oh, well we had to run to town and
we just got back. Okay but you really smell bad. Well I'm sorry we did the best we could. We didn't tell
him that we had [laughs] because that was forbidden.
EG: Sure.
MS: Oh.
DS: Because people have thrown doing that.
EG: Sure.
MS: Oh.
DS: So, oh yeah.
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
6
MS: Couldn’t even tell him.
DS: So there we were. Anyway, it was a beautiful camp and seeing that I'm amazed me was is that, when
you sat in person, certain places in that camp, it was if there was, and I’ll use a term that I learned in
Sedona, you felt like there was something in the air, the atmosphere the feel, that uplifted you and you
were just [deep breath] And the second part of the camp was a circular area that had been in
encampment for the Indians for generations. I mean, probably a thousand years?
MS and EG: Mhm.
DS: And um, it's about five to six acres, circle, almost a perfect circle.
MS: Mhm.
DS: No trees growing in there. The grass stays short. It's the most amazing place you've ever seen. So
the camp had path that wound through it. Certainly through this meadow. Some, what we called the
meadow, and along the paths there would be a written stakes, things from Theroux, and [clears throat]
MS and EG: Mhm.
DS: Just different writers, of that period that were just thought provoking and you could sit down on
benches along the path or you could just keep running. The path ran from Shorewood all the way to the
ferry. Most people don't know that, but sitting talking to some of the older folk, and there actually was
an agreement between the city and the camp that path would be open to the public.
[00:10:11]
MS: Oh.
DS: As long as the uh, the camp gave the, the road, the camp owned the land that the road was on. \
MS: Yeah.
DS: And I saw this when Jim Schimiechen and I were doing the historic survey at the Burnham Library.
There was the agreement, and when we were, we were uh, trying to forestall the the purchase of the
church camp…
EG: Mhm.
DS: For a mega million dollar development, um, I went back to get it, to get a copy of this.
EG: Mhm.
DS: Because that would be germane.
MS: Mhm.
DS: It was gone. It had been taken from the library.
MS and EG: Oh.
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
7
DS: So we couldn't prove it.
MS: Yeah.
DS: Which is really a shame, but anyway that's, that’s the story.
EG: Wow.
DS: And um, I’ve gone back to the church camp until of course it was closed and I gave a, a lecture to a
whole host of people. This, a Historical Society event and I just stood there where they had a cross and a
bunch of benches looking out at the lake and I just stood there and I looked at people and I said what do
you feel? Stop and think a minute and feel it, and they could. When, once you stop and you think about
it. What you are feeling? You’re feeling really great. It’s good to be there, it’s a happy place. And that’s
what the dunes are, just exactly that. So when we couldn’t find a house and the interesting thing, I was
very involved with the Frank Lloyd Wright studio in Oak Park Illinois, and in 1975 we decided we wanted
to rent something on the Lakeshore, if we could, and we had a sailboat. It was an Islander 29 and it got
us all around the lake and we had a wonderful time with the kids. But we all wanted to put our buckets
in the sand.
[EG laughs]
DS: We missed being in Saugatuck. There was something wrong we weren’t in Saugatuck.
EG: Yeah.
MS: Yeah.
EG: Sure.
DS: And uh, so…
MS: [Whispering] Oh, sorry, sorry
DS: So um, [whispering] where was I? Oh. Oh.
EG: Coming back to Saugatuck.
MS: Yeah.
DS: So, I called a friend of ours from Oak Park that I had gone to High School who was realtor up here
and I said is there anything that’s available to rent on the lakeshore? She said, oh my god Dawn, get your
husband out of work, the kids out of uh, school and get up here right now. I just signed a contract to
rent a cottage that has your name over all it and I said why, and she said it was designed by a student
and Frank Lloyd Wright’s.
EG: Okay.
DS: So my husband left work the kids pulled out of school
MS: [Laughing]
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
DS: I mean, that was it.
EG: What, what time of year was this?
DS: This was in, um early June.
EG: Okay.
DS: I mean they were just finishing.
MS and EG: Mhm.
DS: So it was possible to do that.
EG: Right.
MS: Yeah.
DS: We came up, we walked in the front door, we got to uh, there's a, trip, typical of the style…
EG: Mhm.
DS: ….you go through a long narrow, uh, entryway…
MS: Yeah.
DS: …compressed and then, boom, out into space and we got into the kitchen which was the beginning
of that open space.
EG: Yeah.
DS: We didn't go any further, just turned to her and said, we’ll take it.
[All laugh]
DS: So we took it for the month of August and, and it turned out that the woman that had, the people
immediately next door had built it. Because they wanted to be there year round, and they discovered
winners are a little harsh.
EG: Mhm.
MS: Yeah.
DS: And so he loved to gamble and went to Las Vegas instead.
[MS and EG laugh]
DS: They kept the cottage, but they…
MS: Yeah.
8
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
9
DS: Winters were, are, you know, winters were in Las Vegas.
EG: Wow.
DS: So, um, we sold the boat and we took a second mortgage from the people next door, who loved us
because my dog would go over and keep him company while he watched, [pause] the market.
MS: Yeah.
EG: Right.
[MS and EG laugh]
DS: But anyway so we've got the cottage and have been here since 1975.
EG: Wow.
DS: And watched a lot of things go on. Big, big part of the Historical Society and uh, I was the first Cochair of the Heritage Preservation Committee and we did the historic survey of Saugatuck and Douglas
and Jim Schimiechen worked with us.
[00:15:18]
EG: Mhm.
DS: And uh, did his wonderful book.
MS: Yeah.
DS: And so, I don't know what else do you want me to tell you?
EG: Well that, that’s a, that’s a, that’s a tantalizing account.
MS: Yeah.
DS: Good!
[MS laughs]
EG: Of summer on the lakeshore. Um, any observations you’ve had having been here, it’s been really
your whole life here, summers over your whole life time.
DS: Right.
EG: The last forty years or so. Um, changes that you’ve seen in the community? Uh?
DS: You know, it's been a period of accessing historic of properties that have been change time over and
that change over time has not been negative. When I look at, out the window at the, at the um, what
was originally Methodist Church, now a library.
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
10
EG: Right.
DS: Change over time.
EG: Mhm.
DS: A different usage. Um, when we first started coming you could a bowling ball down Center Street
which is our main street.
MS: Mhm.
DS: And a couple of gentleman, took, purchased one of the uh, uh buildings and he restored it and all of
a sudden people begin looking at Douglas.
EG: Mhm.
DS: Today, you walk up and down the street and yes there is some intrusive properties into what it
would have been a very perfect, typical, um, 18, civil war era town.
EG: Yeah.
DS: But, on the whole, it's retained his character, and, so much so that you've got people who are
moving historic houses in to be around the park. Uh, the old Gerber mansion, Gerber baby food was
really begun here with, the Gerber’s a little boy that had digestive problems, a baby this and so she took
some peaches from their Orchard, and another things and ground them up.
MS: Oh, wow.
DS: And thus began Gerber baby food.
[EG laughs]
DS: But, um, yeah. It’s, there’ve been still changes. Um, but we at the same time there've been changes,
people are now turning around and taking a look at our history. And, and wanting to be a part of it.
MS: Yeah.
DS: Uh, that’s a wonderful, wonderful legacy.
MS: Yeah, that really is.
DS: Yeah, for example, we just had, we had a 1837 coach stop that had fallen into monumental disrepair
and the City of Saugatuck was trying to help keep it up by painting of the outside, keeping the grounds
moderately [laughs] mowed down.
MS: Yeah.
DS: And, um in comes the gentleman from Chicago who is a preservationist is from top to bottom. He
has put millions into restoring it, and it’s now open, it’s a bed and breakfast. And that place is as, as
really beautiful. Change over time.
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
11
EG: Mhm.
DS: But he has kept the entire feel of the interior to what would have been there in the 1850’s. So that's
good change over time.
EG: Right. Absolutely, yeah. Um, part of our, um, part part of the mission with this project, the Stories of
Summer projects is also about uh, the gay community in Saugatuck and Douglas, and kind of looking the
history of that, that population. Those residence in, have shaping Saugatuck and Douglas into what they
are, if you have any? Reflections on that?
DS: I rented, I rented the cottage to the first gay couple to uh, come to the lakeshore. And, they are
wonderful people, we're still friends today. Douglas would not be Douglas without the gay community.
Absolutely no question. Yes. The rest of us have done our part here and there [All laugh] But nothing,
nothing like the gay community. It, it’s interesting because when we in talking to the library who's trying
to build a new building.
EG: Mhm, yeah.
DS: I was in there, my husband and I were in there with several gentleman who were gay and the one
point we made was the, what they had designed was the building that really didn't fit in with the historic
architecture of the community, and they had invested, heavily in making sure that this town. Although
we do not have any ordinance, we couldn’t get that through because we had some realtors who really
muddied the water for us when we tried to get it…
[00:20:25]
EG: Into the preservation ordinance?
MS: Yeah, okay.
EG: Right, yeah.
DS: Preservation ordinance, uh but, it's, it’s been restored in spite of that and I have to say. It is 90%
thanks to the gay community. I sat at lunch today and there we were in a restaurant and there were as
many gay folks is there were families. Nobody thought a thing of it.
EG: Any, any experiences that you’d share good or good or more challenging stories about how thats
changed over time? About uh, how, how welcoming, I mean your sense of how welcoming Douglas and,
and uh Saugatuck have been to?
DS: Certainly better than they were to the Jews. There was sign.
EG: I’ve seen the photo of that, yeah.
MS: Yeah
DS: There was a sign, Jews not welcome. That never happened for the gay community. The way they
came in and they became a responsible part of the community such as the two lads restoring um, that
first building.
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
12
EG: Yeah.
DS: Uh, began an awareness among the rest of us that had lived here. That, hey there were some really
nice people…
[MS and EG laugh]
DS: …who happen to love the same things we love, and they were here because they did, and hey
welcome.
EG: Yeah.
DS: And, and that's my perspective, now others may have a different perspective.
MS: Mhm.
DS: But clearly, I'm not, I’m not, uh part of a group that would be anti- because I rented my home.
EG: Right.
MS: Yeah.
EG: For sure.
DS: To, to gays.
MS: Yeah.
DS: And I'll tell you, what Carl and Larry did to the gardens, and to the inside the house it’s never looked
so good.
[MS and EG laugh]
DS: So.
EG: That’s wonderful, yeah that’s a, that’s a great story. I'm just curious if you have any insights, uh,
thinking about this the kind of magic of this place. What do you think it was sort of attracted visitors and
particularly, kind of gay visitors and people to settle here. Do you have a sense historically?
DS: Well, I think it’s, it was probably that they were treated as people, not gay people. Just treated as
people.
EG: An inclusive atmosphere.
DS: It, I think, to, in my experience it's always been inclusive, there may be incidents that other people
had differently but frankly um, I don't think anybody ever worried about it, and so you had a beautiful
community, beautiful climate, historic fabric that I think the gays that came particularly respected and
um it just was, it just worked. I would say we're probably at this point equal number of gays and
straights. My grandson is gay, and it came to me and he said Grandma I have to talk to you and I said
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
13
okay and he said, took my hands, and I said so, what do you want to tell me, he said, Grandma, I’m gay,
and I looked at him and I said, Seth I'm straight.
[MS and EG laugh]
DS: And that kind of the way a community is.
MS: Mhm.
DS: You are what you are. I am what I am, so what? Your, I like you. You’re a person. Uh, I think
certainly the particular people such as Ken Carlson, Jim Schimiechen who were so interested and
welcoming and part and really helping to make it a vibrant community, made a big difference. That’s
part of what I like talk about coming in and helping us being responsible for the maintaining of this
community. Because it's never look better in my life.
EG: Well, that’s a great…
MS: Yeah.
EG: Great, optimistic uh, message there.
DS: Good.
EG: In your reflection.
MS: Yeah.
EG: I appreciate that. I want to be respectful of your time.
DS: Thank you.
EG: Because were probably getting, getting to our point to wrap up.
MS: Yep.
EG: Uh, thinking, think, taking the long view looking ahead. You can think about, you know, fifty years
from now. Right there maybe someone listening to this recording uh, is there any message you would
like to share, kind of looking ahead to that that future audience? Listening to this, what you’d like them
to know about…
[00:25:08]
DS: Well they’ll probably…
EG: The community now?
DS: They’ll probably be some of my family, because I was a Goshorn, Goshorn Lake, Goshorn creek? My
daughter is Laurie Goshorn and my Pete, son is Peter Goshorn and they will live here, uh in retirement
because they own property.
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
14
EG: Yeah.
DS: And uh, I wouldn't want them to remember how hard day they helped work to help make this
community what it is because my kids always pitched in and um, I would hope that um, in the future
people who would continue to respect the value system and the culture of this town because the
culture is what makes it. The biggest problem we have right now is that so many people rent their
homes that it’s hard to maintain continuity of people that have that we have had in the past. Because
you got people here that have come for the summers their whole lives, and spend the whole summer.
EG: Right.
MS: Yeah.
DS: Because they’ve been teachers or whatever and that's changed. I, I, that's my biggest fear is that
that will change things um, but I, what we have is unique. We really have a unique environment both in
terms of historic architecture and things of that sort. The climate of openness and welcome. I would
hope if it goes beyond the diversity of sexuality and that there are other people would, you know other,
other uh, ethnic groups would be welcome. I do see more of that um, but I feel, I, you know I've worked
hard for open occupancy in Oak Park.
EG: Mhm.
MS: Yeah.
DS: So, what am I, you know?
EG: Yeah.
DS: I see a need for many different racial groups to be here as well. Um, we have a value system, we
have a culture, we have landscape, we have a history, we’ve got it all.
[MS and EG laugh]
DS: And a good education system, our schools are very good.
MS: Yeah.
DS: If I were starving over and raising my kids, I would love to raise them in this town where they can
hop on their bikes and be wherever they want be and there's a defined area that’s your…
EG: Right.
DS: Of the town and um…
EG: Yep.
DS: You've got everything you need within it.
EG: Very good, alright.
�Dawn Schumann - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek and Meghann Stevens
July 21, 2018
15
DS: Enough?
EG: Anything you want, questions that you have?
MS: Um, nope not at the moment.
EG: yeah, I feel like you had like a self-guided, kind of, it took you through your story.
MS: Yeah. [Laughing].
EG: Didn’t have to do too much here. With that we'll wrap things up. Thank you so much for your time
and sharing your stories here today and this concludes our interview.
[00:28:18]
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
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Image
Text
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English
Date
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2018
Oral History
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DC-07_SD-SchumannD-20180721
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Schumann, Dawn Schwartz Follett Goshorn
Date
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2018-07-21
Title
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Dawn Schumann (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
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In this interview, Dawn Schumann reflects on the changes in Saugatuck-Douglas from when her parents and grandparents arrived to the area through her time working with the Historical Society.
Contributor
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Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer)
Stevens, Meghann (Interviewer)
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Religious camps
Ferries
Gay men
Sexual minorities
Historic preservation
Oral history
Audio recordings
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Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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Sound
Text
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d335cc04618c7ac77cf60f1cbdfa367c.mp3
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d9d8cce150bd488b18e995aa1642185.mp3
bcef0c15f211197f4396425aa09ef92a
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4cb62dcf1fa9e38f50a61c2a2dcc91d.pdf
7de74b90b38973504b5b8fd7c6d38c8f
PDF Text
Text
Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
1
Part 1
Unknown voice: Now look at it, does it say R E C? That’s important you’ve got to look at that screen,
don’t, don’t rely on the buttons!
Ted Reyda: Okay, we have uh, Mark here and he’s going to tell his adventures and youth of being in the
area.
Mark Randall: [Inaudible] Um, I was born on uh, November 21st 1950 so, the uh, my memories might be
somewhat hazy until I get to be about 10 years old or so. But uh, but I came up here every year, for two
weeks. My grandparents, um, owned a placed on 64th street, they purchased it when my mom came up
here when she was 17, which would have been about 1942 to go to Oxbow and they came up here to
keep an eye on her and they bought that place on 64th street so obviously when she got married along
with her sisters who all got married and had lots of kids, we would all get um, um. My grandparents had
3, 3 daughters and each family got two weeks up here over the summer. Um [pause] my main, my first
recollections were going to Lake Goshorn which was near 64th street my uh, grandfather knew Gus
Raiser who the uh, the gas station and auto place there and he also owned the property behind it and so
he gave us permission to go there and swim, and that’s where I learned to swim. Um, uh suddenly my
dad tried throwing me out the boat uh, but that didn’t work because I went right to the bottom and
they had to rescue me and then gradually with my uh, grandfather and my mother taking more time.
Um, I also remember going with my grandpa to get his cigar uh, and newspaper at Funk’s which was uh,
in downtown. Uh, and I remember on rainy days we would go to the laundromat which is where um,
really Wick’s park is right now, I believe. Um, and uh there was a miniature golf course there, on nicer
days we would get to play. Maybe we put this on pause and look at the questions?
Unknown voice: Well I think that’s great.
[00:02:20]
Part 2
Mark Randall: So now we have the questions, um the only thing of the first four that I didn't say is
where I lived the rest of the time and uh, are we, we grew up in Chicago, in the southwest suburbs,
Orland Park. And [pause] it asks what our favorite place to eat was, well, one of the things we did as kids
is my mom would take us, my grandparents had this old car, it was in 1936 Buick, it was called
Unbelievable, and um, there were no seats in the back, it was a coop so we would all stand back there
and my parents, my mom would drive. And so we would make it uh, to Oval Beach and we would run
along the beach while my mom looked at the sunset. The idea is we would all, which is something we do
to this day, uh, and [pause] we would pass the Rootbeer Barrel and, but when we were out there on the
beach, my mom said we would not go there unless we stayed dry because she didn't want to wash all
our clothes. So we would go walking along, and then pretty soon we'd be running and pretty soon one
of us would get a little wet and pretty soon you push each other all in and we'd all be soaked. But my
mom wanted the ice cream or the root beer or something so we would all got to go anyway. So that was
a favorite place because uh, the root beer tasted good after being, uh after being there and plus we
could stay out a little later. So, uh, um, did we ever go over to Douglas? Uh, yes we did um, as I grew up
more, um, they tried to teach ten, when we would play tennis and the courts in Saugatuck were our
first choice because, uh, they were closer, um, but if it didn't work, there was uh, a tennis court right
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
2
where Berry fields is now and we would go there. It was a little bit more of a substandard court, but I
remember going there. Um, and uh, were there other places that were important to us or did you have
a summer job locally? Um, as I got older, of course I did the typical things. You, uh, you grew up and uh,
went through high school, got a job and went to college. So, when I got um, when I got to high school,
we would still be able to come up here for two weeks. But it was, it was more of a problem for me. So I
would generally come up for a period of time if I could with my folks and it didn't have to work and try
and arrange it because it was always something that was still special. Um, I had a very unusual
experience in, while we were down in Timmeny Park working in a restaurant and met, uh, uh, a lifelong
friend who was a seminarian at the time at Saint Augustine's seminary. Um, and so we've hatched a plan
that I would, when I came up here with my parents and he was at school or he was at the seminary that
I would sneak out. And so we did this and I got on a bicycle and rode from 64th street over to the
seminary and it was late, you know, midnight, one in the morning, something like that. And, uh, and uh,
I remember passing the seminary. Uh, it was a vivid marriage because I was scared and, uh, I was doing
something I wasn't supposed to be doing, and uh, but we, I got there and somehow found our way to
the seminarians who are out at the lake, uh, skinny dipping in the boathouse, which was still there at the
time, it had a second floor and, uh, people were hanging out there, listening to music and drinking beer.
And, uh, and, and I think that was one of my first entries into the LGBT community because uh, I started
to realize that I, I got awfully excited about that. I wouldn't take my clothes off for fear of, well, you
know [Laughs]. And so, uh, and so um, so Saugatuck was a special place. Um, I, I said this once in a
speech that I gave here. I had a, I loved old buildings and there were three really prominent ones in my
memory. Um, one was Tera, which we rarely went to, but I think my grandfather took me there once
after I had actually done some hard work for him. Um, uh, another was the Mount Baldhead Hotel.
Which you could see if you went on the ferry or if you, uh, if you played miniature golf there and things.
And the third was a beautiful set of pillars, uh, in front of a, I presume was a Greek Revival House that
was perched on the, uh, along the river. So if you took the, what was then the Island Queen, a precursor
to the Star of Saugatuck, uh, you would see it, as you, as you gently glided down the river, and those
made an impression on me and uh, and it also made an impression on me that there are no longer here,
um and I think that got us, got me started, I think in some ways on the appreciation of old buildings and
the desire to restore them, which we've carried out today.
[00:5:09]
Ted Reyda: And you, what what are those buildings you've restored in the area?
MR: Um, well there are two. Um, this obviously is not the 60s, 50s or 60s. Uh, but, uh, uh, much later in
the last, uh, 10 years or so, we, uh, um, Chris, my spouse is a teacher and so we get our summers off.
And so we hit on the idea of starting to come here and that grew into uh, hosting our whole family here
for the Oxbow um, the same weekend as the Oxbow benefit because my mom was on the board there
for a long time. And, uh, and so we held the, uh, we would come for that weekend, stay at the
Timberline hotel, know, but then we decided to buy a place. We bought our first place, uh, about 12, 13
years ago. Um, and uh, and that was a relatively newly restored condominium. But then we took on a
project, uh, Dan Shanahan's urging when we, we bought a lot on Washington Street and, and uh, moved
the old, what was the remnants of the old Douglas Hotel, uh, citizen in 1934 it burned and it was
cobbled down into a, uh, into a little bungalow with what was left. And uh, that was on the corner of
Center and Washington and they, uh, the owner of that was going to demolish it. And so we bought the
nearest property right next door, and, and, and he gave us that house for a dollar and we moved it
there. Um, and then uh, several years later there was another house, uh, the Gerber house, which was
at Union and South, I believe. And uh, that was also going to be demolished by owner who wanted to
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
3
build something else there. And we purchased that for a dollar, and, and, since that acquired a lot of the
corner where the old house used to be and moved it there.
TR: Do you uh, have any memories of your mother at Oxbow? As a child going there and observing it?
MR: I don't have any per se, but my mom tells me stories. She said one time she was there doing a
figure study uh, a class, and there was a uh, uh, a woman who was naked, you know, being, uh, being
painted and that, uh, and that I, when I noticed that I was, my mom would take me and put me out by
the water and tell me to behave, you know, play there and behave myself and, uh, but I somehow saw
that, and uh, she I think took a break and went running down and jumped into the water. And, uh, and
so I was horrified by that and went running up and told my mom that there was a bare naked lady down
there.
[TR laughs]
MR: I can't say I remember that, but, uh, um, I, uh, we other memories were of course going to Oval
and uh, walking down towards the channel as I, uh, as I grew older and realized I was gay of course, that
he had a different connotation because we knew there were uh, gay people down there cause they
would be like sentinels up on the, up on the slope for, you know, and uh, but uh, but even then we
remember going down there, you know, during the sunset and [inaudible]
TR: But you never wandered up into the dunes?
MR: Uh, no, I mean, not that, not that I can remember.
TR: Okay.
MR: It took me till I was 34 results to really, uh, except all those, even though, uh, back then the, the,
the, the seminary experience was about 17. So a, so I was a pretty slow mover. I wasn't heading up to
any dunes.
TR: So the area had enough interest where you had to come back?
MR: Yes. In fact, one summer I was, uh, in my senior year, so this be outside, again, this is about 72.
Um, I or summer of yeah, 72 or 71 maybe. I was, uh, we, I had made enough money in summers before
where I didn't need to work much that week, that, that summer and um, we decided it would be really
fun, some friends of ours and I, to come up here to Saugatuck and stay for a summer. So I managed to
get a job at the Ilfarmo restaurant washing dishes and we stayed at a little place. It's a little place it’s
much nicer now it's going to redone. Um, but it, it was a little cottage uh, which was just basically two
rooms right next to the funeral home and, and perched up a little bit, so you actually walk out with a set
of stairs, which is still there. It's still there, but it was much rougher then, didn't have the nice porch that
it has now and actually the dune kept encroaching, so, uh, the toilet, by the time we left, there was a, a
little toilet was the closest thing to the dune and there was this sort of slope of sand behind it that was
kind of close to your uh, feet, um. But uh, so we stayed in that and we had rented that for the summer
and, uh, we would go out on the dunes and, uh, and for sunset, we've never had any money. Uh, and so
we would go out there and watch the sunsets just as much as I did when I was a kid, except that we
would have a bottle of Boone's farm and maybe some other entertainments that, uh, and we would
walk there frequently and uh, stay till it got dark.
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
4
[00:10:34]
TR: No, no knowledge of uh, Toads, the gay, the only supposedly gay bar.
MR: Um, we, the only knowledge I have of a gay bar was during that same time when I was renting and I
worked at the Ilforma, you could work in late. And I walked by the Blue Tempo, and I would
occasionally…
TR: That is the same place.
MR: Ah, okay. And, uh, I would occasionally get whistled at or you know, uh, get a comment.
TR: But you never went in?
MR: No, I, uh, I, I wasn't accepting of, uh, of, uh, of that. Yeah. So, uh, so it looked at it mostly flustered
me because I didn't really know how to react.
TR: But, yeah, it's wonderful that you've had these positive feelings to come back and then you bring
your family and back and you certainly have a long tradition. I don't know if you want to describe any of
the house that your grandfather had, the family inn?
MR: Well, they were from Germany. Um, so, um, they, they spoke English but with a, with a heavily
German accent, and so there were memories or Germany in every place they had. So the, uh, the
original house there was uh, a cottage. It was a, it had knotty pine, which I remember vividly, a beautiful
warm view. And they had a, uh, you know, a German cuckoo clock that would come out, and, but the,
uh, and, and there, that was the part of the house we could go to, but my grandparents kept part of the
house on the other side of the kitchen that was off limits to us because I think they wanted to keep it
quiet, and, uh, and you have some separation because my mom had five kids, my Aunt Deb had eight,
my Aunt Mony had five, so they had six weeks of this, uh, you know, lots of kids and I think they had to
have some area of, uh, it was 15 acres, so, uh, or it was until they started building on 196 and then they
lost their…
TR: Okay, were there summer gardens or anything?
MR: Yes, they had a beautiful garden, they had a uh, uh, uh a rectangle, a long rectangle of flowers that
were between the two houses. We got kind of the refurbished garage to stay in, all the, all the uh, the
daughters families and uh, and, and that was between them and there was a lot of lawn and there were
a lot of apple trees. Um, there were, there were all around, the circular drive is still there.
TR: Did they spray it to get the fruit or just?
MR: [Inaudible] I don't remember.
TR: You don't remember?
MR: [Speaking over TR] You know, we would come, we would come generally in, uh, late June or early
July, so picking through, um, uh, wasn't ever a part of what we did, uh…
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
5
TR: And they probably didn't have any pits around here, in Fennville?
MR: They may have, they may have, uh, um, for whatever reason, it wasn't something that would…
TR: How long was the journey from Chicago?
MR: Well, back then it was, uh, probably a good four hours or so. The uh, um, I remember that we
would all pile, you know five kids and you know, into my, either my dad’s car or [inaudible] car
[inaudible] grandfather too. And uh, and I remember one of us would lay on the uh, the back deck of the
window, you know, obviously there were no seatbelts then, but you know, we'd always have to go to
the bathroom and so there'll be lots of stops and we would stop at um, was a Bill Naps, I think it was a or
the Big Boy, and uh eat something on the way. If we're in, and if we were good, we would get ice cream,
uh, and we would get another real good or not. But it was a, it was a incentive.
TR: I don't know if you want to get into, did any of your family take memories and objects from this
place?
MR: [Laughs] Uh, we all have memories, you know, whenever we have a sort of family of union
Saugatuck comes up and now that we, Chris and I have a place here, uh, we've gotten visits from a lot of
the family that we're still in touch with.
TR: And so their, their experiences are very positive then?
MR: Oh, yes, yes. It was a, an extraordinarily warm experience, uh, in the place. You know, you forget
what we had a, we had a family with a bunch of little kids come visit, uh, a few years ago, and we were
thinking, well, what are they going to do? Well between the dunes schooner rides and like the fishing or
whatever, there’s just so much for kids to do here. And, uh, and uh, you know, I, I can't, I can't think of a
child that has had a negative view of, of, uh, of being here.
[00:15:18]
TR: In what ways to have the area changed?
MR: Well, after, uh, you know, moving to California and lots of stuff, it's amazing to me how little it has
changed. But I think I, uh, I would, I would say, you know, certainly it's sad to see uh, there, as I said the,
some of the architectural things, you know, leave, the pavilion of course. Oh, I remember seeing movies
there my grandparents took me to movies there.
TR: That down below?
MR: Yeah, uh, and it was, um, and it was getting kind of tacky, you know, and I don't know that, I don't
have a memory of the ballroom, um, so we probably never were up there for anything. Um, but still, you
know, it was a remarkable building and to see it go, uh, with, uh, uh, which it did when I must've been, I
think about 13 or so when uh, when it burned down.
TR: Did you ever uh do, take sailing lessons?
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
6
MR: I did, I did. Um, my parents, you know, were, uh, had no end of things to try and uh, try and keep us
occupied. And one of them was taking swimming lessons, uh which we took, I think, uh, I forget where.
Um, what pool or something?
TR: There was a, north of town, a huge pool.
MR: Yeah.
TR: But they closed that because the polio.
MR: Right, so I think that may have already closed, uh...
TR: It was at North Street and, and Holland. Yeah.
MR: Yeah. I know, I've heard of it, but I, I don't, I don't have a memory.
TR: Okay.
MR: But I do remember swimming lessons, but the, the one thing that I did remarkably poorly at, and
our son did too, was uh, sailing at the yacht club. Uh, I you would start on these prants, which were a
flat fronted sailboat, and uh, and it, once you've mastered that, which never did, then you move up to
the lightning’s, uh, which were a bigger, a bigger, smoother boat, uh, but it was fine then it was
memorable, and uh, and uh, even if I do remember getting whacked on the head with it, boom, more,
uh, more than once.
TR: Which for example, are there any negatives of your experiences here, that you can think of?
MR: Um, not any that were, uh, you know, uh, to the place. Um, there was some family dynamics that
sometimes didn't [inaudible] well. Um, but, uh, I, and I remember I have had a lifelong, dread of
mosquito I suppose, but you know, I don’t know where in the park where they have get any less, so I
imagine that was just part of growing up. Uh…
TR: [Inaudible]
MR: Um, not so much, I don’t remember uh, getting that. Um, so it was a pretty much all positive
memory. It was just wonderful to get away, uh, and come here and it was a beautiful place. And my
parents above all knew how to appreciate beauty and they knew how to instill that, both the beauty
itself and the appreciation of it in me. And uh, this is a beautiful place.
TR: And at some point hopefully we’ll have your mother doing an oral uh, session.
MR: And you need to get her fast. She's 93 and she's taking care of my dad a lot, but the uh…
TR: But the, the art work she's done and going to Oxbow, very, very rich experiences.
MR: Yep. It's your, uh, and I think that if there is a negative, that will be when my mom passes away
with, because so much of, uh, so much of the memory here involves her, uh, so. [Pause]
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
7
TR: Okay.
MR: Two experiences that seem like they might have answer, uh, some of the questions here. Uh, it
asks, did you spend time on the water? And yes, we certainly did. Um, we used to come up here a lot,
even not just that summer bit, uh, that, um, I came after college during college we, we, would come up,
but we had no place to stay and we didn't have the money so we would, uh, we would, uh, you know, go
watch the sunset or otherwise entertain ourselves until uh, a, a, and we'd hang out in front of the, uh,
the old, uh, coral gables, because you hear the music there were along the, uh, along the water and uh,
and then when it got late enough, we would um, park our cars along uh, uh, Lakeshore there where all
fancy houses are, and find one of the pathways and we would sneak by, sometimes the windows were
open until we got out to the beach and we would sleep on the beach until, uh, until the morning. Um,
and the only other water experience is a one time. We decided we were going to, uh, make it to the
other side of the channel, and so we kind of, uh, um…
[00:20:12]
TR: We being your family.
MR: No, no, nobody, nobody else in my family is that stupid, uh, but it was just one of my friends and I
had a, or two of us, two, so three of us total. And we, uh, we decided we were going to swim across the
channel and uh, and, and we did, it was kind of icky, the water and it was hard getting up the other side
once we got there, which probably should have occurred to us before we left. But, uh, and uh, and we
didn't bring enough food and stuff. We would kind of have, have to hold it above our heads, you know,
to get, to get across. So I think that was it.
TR: Okay. [Pause]
MR: [Inaudible] Although my mom um, had five kids to raise. She still would bring us over to Oxbow and
she would still sometimes take classes or paint over there. And so we, Oxbow is it been a part of my life
as long as Saugatuck has. Um, you know, my mom ended up on the board there and so I would uh, go up
with her or sometimes for meetings or things like that. And we, we stayed in the Inn, in one of the other
cottages, uh, which was, uh, rustic even by a college students standards, uh back, back then. Um, when
we were very young, um, we, as I said, we used to go play tennis and one of the rewards for tennis was,
uh, we would, we would go to Recsals and, uh, I, uh, I was partial to root beer floats, then chocolate
shakes, uh, and then chocolate sodas. But uh, but that it's amazing how little that, you had asked what
changes, how little that has changed. That it’s still there, seems like the same experience, it always will.
TRL But you also did the root beer floats at the Root Beer Stand.
MR: I'm trying to remember when the Root Beer Barrel had floats, they had mugs, you know, big mugs
and you can get foot long hot dogs.
TR: Frozen, frozen mugs. Like this.
MR: But we, we did have a hot dogs cause we had just eaten dinner, this was a sunset thing. But the, uh,
but we did have the, the big mugs, and um, I don't remember where there floats or not.
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
8
TR: Where would you, you cooked at, your family cooked at home a lot. Uh, where did you buy your
groceries?
MR: Um, well that’s another story, they, uh, where or 64th street is like nothing. Like it is now, iIt was a,
it was barely paved. It was a, had a big crown at, so you'd be constantly afraid that old car was going to
go off the road. Um, so, um, but, but you could ride your bike out to a place, I think it's called Hanes or
something like that, which is a, the building is still there right now, it’s say pet health center or
something. Uh, it's right next to where the Burger King is now.
TR: The cat, cat house.
MR: And uh, well that was a, that was like, uh, a, a, a, early precursor of like a 7-11 where you could buy
uh, basic things. And the trick for me was invariably that my mom would want eggs and I would, I would
try and get them home without breaking too many…
TR: On your bicycle.
MR: And I had uh, limited, uh, marginal success, at that, uh but I remember so, so we would get sent up
there. Uh, as far as shopping it itself, was is there a grocery store like Demond’s? I know on rainy days in
addition to doing laundry and we'd go into Holland to buy things. Um, but, uh, but I don't remember.
TR: Was, was your family religious? Did you attend any churches?
MR: Um, we, I don't remember what was there before the St Peter's, now we're Catholic family and uh,
but I do remember a big church being brand new, um, and…
TR: Where your condo was, was where the church was.
MR: Uh, well it could have been, well it was obviously, but I don't remember it. I do remember Saint
Peter's and how impressive it was because it was new and that there was a, uh, there was a building uh,
having, there's a room that was for um, all the noisy kids and, uh, but my, my mom had considered me
graduated enough where I had to go in the main part and behave and I couldn't be back there uh, with
the other kids.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
English
Date
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2018
Oral History
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DC-07_SD-RandallM-20180530
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Randall, Mark
Date
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2018-05-30
Title
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Mark Randal (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
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Mark Randall grew up in Orland Park, near Chicago, in the 1950s. In this interview, Randall recalls visiting Saugatuck in his youth and living there as an adult.
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Reyda, Ted (Interviewer)
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Sand dunes
Historic preservation
Oral history
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Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Sound
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e034af4199a2ddad581f156cb665d9fb.mp3
4e3853da05ee8c8fabba76008a419197
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5051d490a498b542a21a3c49172b94da.pdf
1b924b6c437157333ae70fc75811477d
PDF Text
Text
Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
1
Alyssa Morgan: Oh Now its going. Oh thank god. You’re right. I pressed it twice. Okay, not it’s recording
because see the time is, it want doing anything before. Alright, sorry. This is Alyssa Morgan and I’m here
today with Karen Morgan, my sister at the Saugatuck Douglas Historical Center in Douglas Michigan on,
June nd , this oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project which is supported in
part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you
for taking the time to talk with me today, I’m interested to learn more about um, your family history and
your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you please tell me your full name and
spell it?
Karen Morgan: [Whispering] You didn’t say I was your sister. [Pause] Karen Morgan K A R E N M O R G A
N.
AM: Okay, um we’re going to start with questions about um, for someone, seasonal residence because
Karen was here in the summers. So, how and when did you first come to Saugatuck Douglas area?
KM: Okay, um, right after I graduated from high school, it was 9 and I actually started um when the
restaurant in the, on Lake Macatawa was newly opened, um, Point West and I was the first group of
waitresses that they hired and I knew nothing about waitressing. The Holland experience was a whole
new experience for me and I really flubbed up a lot, ordering, went to the bar one night to order a
daiquiri and I got mixed up and called it a Dykstra. So we had a lot of exciting adventures trying to be a
waitress at the newly opened West Point um, restaurant. Um, but the next summer, I came here with
my girlfriend and um, that’s when we settled between Saugatuck and Holland in a little rented cottage.
[Whispers] Do you want to go on with that?
AM: Yeah, well I was going to say, what were your first impressions of the area? For that, even like the
first year, in Holland.
KM: Oh the first year, oh the first year was just an exciting time for me, um, I got, I got introduced to the
Christian Reform religion from my landlady who would not allow me to um, wash my uniform on
Sundays and um, but you know it was just generally, that was the first year away from home, it was a
very exciting time, just to have an adventure and meet new friends and do something on my own, um,
the next year, I don’t know if you want to ask another question, leading question?
AM: Oh um, no you can go ahead.
KM: Okay the next year when I came with my best friend and we also both, um, worked at the
restaurant um, until she got fired because we talked too much, together while we were working and so
she ended up working in um, at the Butler in Saugatuck. So that drew us more into the Saugatuck area
um, and we stayed in that house, until about the middle of summer, until we um, our partying got a
little bit out of hand and our landlords told us we had to leave. Um, in the meantime my girlfriend Meryl
had a big, great big car, used car and um, it didn’t work always properly, in fact it wouldn’t go in reverse
at one point and she had to drive around the cottage to get to the road to go to work every day because
it wouldn’t go in reverse. We thought, you know now I’m laughing at it, but at that time it was kind of
traumatic but we, we also still joked about things like that because we were so young. I was also on a, it
was a very freeing time in our little cottage between um, Saugatuck and Holland.
AM: And where was it? You don’t, you don’t know what road it was?
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
2
KM: Well actually, when my girlfriend came back to visit one time, we actually tracked it down and tried
to find it and we finally did think that we found it, it had changed a lot because it was just like a little
cottage on the side of this house, I mean a cottage that hasn’t being inhabited.
AM: 64th or 62nd, or?
KM: Yeah one of those streets.
AM: Yeah between the two.
KM: Um, and but, I remember from that time, some of the songs I was telling my sister about this but
just trying to just think about back to those time that it was um, I am the rock, Simon Garfunkel Mrs.
Robinson from 1966 this would be um, course I was always trying to lose weight and look good, so I was
on a rice and fruit diet that summer, so all we had in the fridge was a big joke. We had fruit and beer.
[Laughs]
AM: Not much different then you have now except you don’t have the beer. [Laughs] Okay.
KM: Okay, go ahead.
AM: Okay I was going to say, okay did you have a summer job locally, and then how old were you? So
you were like, right out of high school?
KM: the first summer and then 19 with my girlfriend, yes.
AM: Yeah, yeah. Um, let me see what was that experience like, um, did you, oh, tell about the, the bird
center, because didn’t you get?
[00:05:02]
KM: Okay, so after, to continue, after um, we had to leave our little cottage, we we scrambled around to
look for a place in Saugatuck and at that time, um, there was a place called the Bird Center and this was
a popular place for waitresses to um, live during the summer while they worked um, each room had a
birds name on it and the lady who owned it um, lived behind us and that, that building still stands on.
AM: It’s right on Lake Street.
KM: On Lake Street.
AM: And someone told me, and I don’t know, remember I told you that someone told me just recently
that that lady um who owned it, and I don’t know if it was the same one, but I think it was, just died.
KM: Died. Okay.
AM: No that long ago.
KM: That could be. Um, so I remember a couple of the girls that were actually there, Bridget um a big
busted gal real sweet she was always trying to exercise and lose weight a woman named a a friend
named Barb um, so it was right there kind of where we could just right in the center of town so we
could, we were really centrally located.
AM: How much did you pay, do you remember?
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
3
KM: I don’t know. I can’t remember, I just remember that there, my sis, my girlfriend and I had to share
a bed because that was, we just had this little room with one bed and there was always sand in the bed
because we’d always come in from the beach. And our sheets were always full of sand.
AM: Oh! I know something that my sister was telling me that was really funny about Mom and Dad not
knowing where you were living? That was the first summer?
KM: Uh, listen. I was telling her that the first summer, oh, no it would be the second summer when I was
with my girlfriend we came over here looking for a place and actually tried to find a place in Holland at
the time because we were both going to be working in Holland and there was a little apartment and um,
we thought we might get, but then it fell through and so we had to sleep in the car. But we can’t, Alyssa
can’t figure out why my parents wouldn’t know where we were staying. But I do know while we were at
the Bird Center, one day we looked out the window and there was my girlfriend’s father, Tony walking
around looking for Marilyn so.
AM: Because he didn’t know where she was?
KM: Yeah!
AM: And of course that was before cellphones.
KM: Oh yeah
AM: Or anything like that. Ah, let me see [inaudible] Oh, did you spend time on or near the water and
what activates did you participate in and where did you go?
KM: Okay well we went to the beach, uh, I actually have a photo of me that was in the newspaper from
um, being at Oval Beach um, I do remember just loving to walk to the dunes, um, see where we, I came,
I came from Hastings which was miles inland and we had many lakes there but we were um, as a, as a
small child we used to come, children we used to come and um, vacation just like for a day at Lake
Michigan and that always was a big deal we didn’t do it very often.
AM: And we usually went to, Holland. Or Grand Haven or something.
KM: So I was drawn to this area, we had experienced it just a very little so I, I mean I just was always
drawn to the big lake and we didn’t use the beach I remember, I remember sun bathing in the dunes it
was just so beautiful.
AM: Um, if you stayed in Saugatuck did you ever go to Douglas and if you were in Douglas did you ever
go to Saugatuck? We’re discussing this every day.
KM: Okay, uh, we don’t, I don’t remember anything about Douglas at all.
AM: Yeah, nothing, right?
KM: Nothing, it was just the word Saugatuck and we stayed around there.
AM: Interesting, yeah. Okay. Uh, were there any other places or institutions um that were important to
you here in Saugatuck at that time? Like any other, I guess it would be like even restaurants?
KM: Arts.
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
4
AM: Yeah, okay
KM: Well my girlfriend when she came back to visit me she uh, thought that the Sandbar might have
been there for, I mean she felt the Sandbar was there when we were there. I don’t remember it. But of
course she worked at the Butler and then, of course the Coral Gables was, was the big um, place and her
boyfriend, um Rocky Driver who was from Detroit he was a bar, he was a bouncer at the um, the bar
down below. What would I call that, The Old Crow I think they called it? I think it’s called the Old Crow.
So that was the center of activity and I do remember um, actually you might have a…
AM: Question?
KM: Question later on about this. I’ll go on.
AM: Go ahead.
KM: Oh, okay I was just going to say, in front of the Old Crow I was just telling her husband this morning,
but in front of the Old Crow I do remember this, they had a um, it was considered like a party town uh
they, they did have like a some kind of truck or camper or something parked in front of the old Coral
Gables and they were giving out free Martinis to everyone.
[AM Laughs]
They were.
AM: Did they check your IDs?
KM: I don’t remember, but I just remember that I never drank martinis after that. [Both laugh]
AM: That’s funny, okay let me see I think I got most of these, a seasonal, okay how did you first come to
Saugatuck, why did you first come to Saugatuck?
KM: Who I came with.
AM: To get away from mom and dad? What as that like, your first impressions, how long you’ve been
coming to Saugatuck, what else, where else do you live during the year, okay well, um, who did you
come with, with your girlfriend, okay, what was this area like then? Um, what was your favorite place to
eat in the summer? Did you, you probably didn’t.
KM: We didn’t eat out much, although you know we did work at the restaurants so we probably just ate
at the restaurant a lot.
[00:10:04]
AM: Yeah. Because you kept working there, the second summer, right?
KM: The second summer then I actually worked in a bar at the, towards, right towards the end I was a
bartender. Although in those days of course you couldn’t drink. I worked at, yeah I was a cocktail
waitress at Point West. Um, and but of course because, I couldn't, I wasn't for me to drink although I
serving was cocktails.
AM: Right.
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
5
KM: Yeah.
AM: Yeah, yeah. Um, where did you guys, so you just ate the restaurant, don't you remember, and you
had that, kitchen in the one place. The bird, the Bird Center, they didn’t, they just had a room.
KM: You’re right. Yeah, okay. I don't remember where we ate.
AM: You don’t remember.
KM: That's right. I don't know.
AM: Um, I, I want to ask about students because you were student then because, um, we're you saving
money for, for college?
KM: Um, yes.
AM: Yeah.
KM: That's what I was here for. I was a student at Western um, and I did lend $60 to my girlfriend's
boyfriend called Rocky Driver, who he never, never paid me back.
AM: [Laughs] And that was a lot of money in 1960, 6 was it? Was it the second year?
KM: [Laughs] Yes.
AM: Yeah we figured it's probably about $300 now, or more. Um, well this question, you know this is for
the students, says for students but, how did your first hear of Saugatuck Douglas. I guess it would just be
because you got their job at the…
KM: Yeah I don't know. See I used to, when I was, you know, in school that's what kids used to do. We
used to, you know I guess they still do but I mean, you know, we used to go to places and I had looked at
Lake George in New York.
AM: Oh, right.
KM: You know, and it was exciting or you went to Fort Lauderdale, in those days. So this was actually the
closest place, you know and they needed, needed waitresses.
AM: Right. Let me see, how did you first year in Saugatuck Douglas, okay. Who did you visit the area
with others from your school, family members, we kind of talked about…
KM: I can tell a little bit more about Point uh, Point West a bit. I just remember there was um, Stan was
the um, was the mean Chef, the head chef that you know no one, he, we were scared of him because
everything had to be perfect, and we didn't ever do anything right. And Martha was the head, the oldest
waitress that was, would go into complete fits if you didn't get your omelet fast enough and it fell before
you served it, and then I started dating Danny the bartender.
AM: Oh, right, and he was, I'm not being interviewed this is Alyssa, but Karen foxed me up with a blind
date. I was still in high school and I came over and I had a blind, blind date with, was he a bus boy or
something?
KM: His name was Warren.
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
6
AM: Warren.
KM: And Alyssa dressed all in white, she looked so cute.
AM: One night, that was it. [Laughs] Okay, um so we're going to go onto questions about life, work, and
shenanigans. In Saugatuck Douglas and you’ve answered some of these but there might, there might be
some others. How would you describe Saugatuck Douglas to someone who has never been here and, I, I
assume that means when she was living here but you might want to say both? Um, and how would you
compare the area to other places you’ve lived or worked?
KM: Okay.
AM: This is a good time.
KM: Okay, so we'll talk about um, the idea that I actually started out here um, like right after high school
of course drawn to the water and the freedom of um, a resort area and what happened is I actually
ended up um, on the East Coast working for Eastern Airlines as a flight attendant, so I lived in Boston for
four years and then I was drawn again to Cape Cod, south of Boston, and that, that is it was an island, or
I mean a peninsula basically as you know, surrounded by water and beaches and really a more free
lifestyle which probably started when I started living in Saugatuck and sort of formed my opinion of that
kind of um, a beautiful nature area, but also, um, you know people are drawn to it for um, interesting
ideas, and art and then we actually when Alyssa moved down there also, we all done together and we
lived on the lower Cape and then actually ended up living at one point um, in Provincetown which would
be, you know similar to Saugatuck in some ways. Um, you know on the east coast, you know there’s a
more, a New York influence of course but then I got very interested very involved in art from living in uh,
in Provincetown, and of course we had the beauty of the beaches and water, just like here, and so then
when I came back to Michigan for, um, some more family um, involvement and security, with, with my
elder relatives and I again was drawn back to Saugatuck. I used walk a dog, we didn't have any place that
I walked this dog in Hastings and so um, I started going uh, okay let's just go to the beach. So I'd take her
to the beach and then Alyssa started coming with me and then I brought my Dad over, um he was like
90 years old and I would take him to Wally's. We’d go to the coffee shop, Uncommon Grounds and he
would go to Wally's and have his cocktails and so, Saugatuck is actually been sort of, uh reflective of my
life on the East Coast a little bit smaller scale but something I can still get involved with, with the still
freedom of the beauty and the water and um, people that are involved, you know the fun people that
are coming here to have fun.
[00:15:27]
AM: Uh, and how long did you live on the East Coast a number of years, right? I do know, but.
KM: 30 years, 30 years.
AM: 30 years so she was gone long time. Um, really, and so was I. Um, so you compared to other places
you’ve lived or worked, okay. In what, in what ways has the area changed?
KM: Okay.
AM: Over the time you've been here or been coming here.
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
7
KM: Okay. Uh, now see when I was here as a young person I really was working and just, you know
dating, meeting guys and that kind of thing, um, having new girlfriends so I wasn't that involved in the
culture so much I can actually think about it, um, you know in a more mature way but um, I do know
since I developed artistic um, uh interests on the East Coast when I came back here I started getting
more interested in the, in the arts that you have here and got, got, I go to Oxbow sometimes and see
what's going on there and so forth so I know that was already here but I really didn't know too much
about it, but I think it has developed more in, in the, with the arts. [pause] And restaurant development.
AM: Oh yeah, I was going to say like housing and, how is that, is that changed?
KM: Well housing, I'm sure, I don't know so much about the housing because we don't, I don't live here
but.
AM: Yeah.
KM: The restaurants would be also something that are, is actually a lot better than, you know, course
long time ago.
AM: Yeah, yeah.
KM: A lot more variety and, okay.
AM: Uh, well this question you kind of answered, why was Saugatuck Douglas your destination of choice
in the summer. I mean you.
KM: Yeah, it gave me a sense of freedom.
AM: Um and you, can you tell us some of your favorite memories of being here in the summer or uh,
poignant memories or sharp?
KM: Kind of vivid?
AM: Yeah, vivid memories.
KM: Okay, so I'm going to um, recall a story that was uh, sharp, it, it was a sad story actually but it was
part of what had happened this summer. Um, when my girlfriend was dating uh, Rocky Driver from
Western. He, they were from Detroit, he was in Detroit so his, his best friend was named Bruce. And so
they would drive over in their motorcycles to come see us. And I sort of start hanging out with Bruce,
um, real nice guy, he was going to Eastern College, Eastern, Eastern University so they actually ended up
renting a little, a little cottage and be on the left side of, would be across the street from us. What's our
street?
AM: Lake Street.
KM: Lake Street. So that be on the, the inlet that comes in. Okay, that's, I think those are all gone now,
of course. They were, they’d be on the left hand side, right on the water there just a little cottage that
were available, so they start renting those. We, this is just more like midsummer probably and um,
anyway one night um, after it was like a Friday night, almost sure Bruce and I, he came over to see, and I
was at the bird Center and I'm remember exactly what I wore I had this little white crop top I had
borrowed, borrowed Barb and low slung, you know, blue hipster pants and sandals, and we sat in the
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
8
porch for a while I sat in his lap and we had a nice time and we walked down town to the ice cream shop
and I think ice cream shop is probably still there or at least it's the same area. It was there then and we,
and he, he, he had um, mint chocolate chip ice cream, just was a nice evening together and we went
back to his, down to his little cottage and we started drinking you know I don't know what beer and stuff
wasn't hugely a party or, at that point. But anyway then after a while, and Rocky was I think, uh, working
at the, as a bouncer that night so he wasn’t at the cottage and then um, a few people showed up later
on as the evening, evening wore on and um, Bruce was outside and I was supposed to go the next day to
Detroit with him actually because his parents were in vacation in Canada and we were supposed to go
the next morning to Detroit to have a party for the weekend. So, um, our weekend was kind of planed.
Well he goes outside he starts up, I'm kind of just with my girlfriend, kind of out of it because I drank too
much and stuff, so I run out, I hear the motorcycle run, running so I run out and say where you going, he
said I’m going for a ride well he took this woman for ride her name was Ann from Lansing. I didn't know
her but they, they go and off and no big deal so then but he never came back and I got later and later
and later and I just thought wow what happened you know this is weird, really weird so I finally go home
and I'm walking around with Barb. I was really upset at that, at that point and didn't know what
happened, so I go back. I go to bed and I hear our land lady from the bird Center comes in and says
there's been a fatality. Well I jump out of bed and, a motorcycle fatality, so anyway I run down of the
cabin and sure enough Rocky and Marilyn were there and Bruce had gotten killed on his motorcycle. He
got, he had gone out and taken Ann on a ride and came back and that big curve on Lake Street on the,
on the curve there, this is before they used to have to wear helmets. He must've hit the telephone pole
and um, hit his head evidently and broke his neck or something and died right there at the scene and
Ann had broken her leg. So of course we just were all totally in shock and um, he was such a nice guy, a
real nice guy, you know just sweet guy. A student, twenty one years old. Anyway so we did go and we
rented a, we had a, I had my old black Ford and we actually went to a funeral in Detroit after that but
um, I called my Dad and he said, I think it's time to come home. [Laughs] So that was kind of the end of a
you know, a great summer but still you know we had, it was a great summer and he did have a good
time while he was he was here with Rocky on his motorcycle so, you know, that's kind of the starkest
memory in the summer.
[00:21:08]
AM: Yeah. Um, where there a lot of motorcycles around then?
KM: Um. You know.
AM: There's a, there’s another question about it here.
KM: Yeah.
AM: It said um, what type of shenanigans did you get into, were you a participant, an instigator, or
bystander of mayhem? And I love that word mayhem and shenanigans. [Laughs] Yeah, okay, and what
was your impression of law enforcement? Did you ever get involved?
KM: No, not really.
AM: Did you ever get caught or see someone else get caught and what happened? Caught doing, I
don't, I'm not sure really what, but I don't know if that be like drinking under age or doing some…
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
9
KM: Yeah I’m, this, we were just all kind of, it was sort of innocent behavior when, at that time, in those
years. I mean from my, my experience. I never saw anything really.
AM: Yeah.
KM: Too crazy or too wild but then again you know, I wasn't here that long it wasn’t out late at night
particularly, you know? So.
AM: What special events, if any did you attend in Saugatuck, things like music festivals, motorcycle races
parties? You've talked about the parties.
KM: Yeah.
AM: Did you ever go to any parties that were you know like invited, you are invited with a whole bunch
of others?
KM: Yeah, you know, I don't, I don't remember that so much.
AM: Yeah.
KM: I don't remember it.
AM: You were probably working a lot weren’t you?
KM: Yeah, I don't, I don't number.
AM: Yeah, um, and were these organized events are informal, everything was, was it formal?
KM: Everything that I knew was pretty informal.
AM: Uh huh.
KM Yeah.
AM: Uh huh. Describe a scene of mayhem. I guess you know, Bruce. That's not really mayhem, but I
guess that would be the closest to…
KM: Yeah.
AM: Something being very upsetting or?
KM: Yeah. It, well it changes your life in some you ways, you start to, you grow up faster when see
something like that happen.
AM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
AM: Um, well there’s.
KM: And then also when my girlfriend, um, when she’d come to visit me, we, I would bring her over
here.
AM: Yeah.
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
10
KM: Marilyn, we would go to the coffee shop and of course we had…
AM: And Marilyn, um, you might want to say, just say some about Marilyn, having, having left kind of,
kind of, I mean she well, no she stayed in Michigan for a while and then she left Michigan.
KM: Yeah she went to Detroit.
AM: Yeah.
KM: And then went to Colorado actually.
AM: Yeah.
KM: Lived in Colorado most of her life.
AM: Are you in, you don't know any of the other people?
KM: Oh. Any up here?
AM: Yeah.
KM: Um, no I don't, I don't.
AM: Where are those girls from, Barb and, did they go to college or?
KM: Yes, I, I probably?
AM: Probably?
KM: No, I don't really remember it’s kind of how, you know how it is when you get, when you. This is an
interesting thing because, since it's all about memory.
AM: Yeah
KM: You sort of have since I've been talking about this with Alyssa, things have actually come, um, clear.
You know a little more clear that never even thought about it all, so that's been kind of interesting
thinking about what had actually happened, my memory. But there seems like, it's just like anything
with memory there's certain, there's certain shots or certain slats, a sliff, uh what’s the word.
AM: Slice?
KM: Slices of, just memory. So I'm not, I'm not doing a real big full picture here because I, I think that is
like anything you remember when you were young.
AM: Yeah.
KM: You think of, just sort of…
AM: The outfit you had on...
KM: Yeah! Yeah but after that I mean all the time in between that kind of, you know it's kind of a blank.
AM: Did you have to wear a gold uniform?
KM: Yeah it was gold.
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
11
AM: [Laughs] I remember that!
KM: It was gold, gold and white shoes and a little white blouses. You know remember the golden
uniform?
AM: I remember they were, ugly.
KM: Yeah.
AM: They're like that real...
KM: Actually the bar, bar, tender, I mean a bar maid. I got to wear a white blouse with white ruffles in
front.
AM: Oh.
KM: Like, more V-neck and a, and a burgundy skirt.
AM: Oh, burgundy.
KM: Yeah.
AM: Because we used to have to wear, I wore black I think, one time.
KM: Okay. Yeah, that was…
AM: Everybody did? Everybody wore the?
KM: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:25:00]
AM: Um, also oh you might want to say something about um, Mary Cook's cottage because wasn’t that
where?
KM: Oh! Okay. Well this is might be the way that we were introduced to this area.
AM: Yeah.
KM: Okay.
AM: In a way.
KM: Okay, um, my father's uh, parents friend Mary Cook and her husband Les used to have a cottage
that’d be right back behind where the restaurant was. So, and those, those were.
AM: That was, um?
KM: Point West.
AM: Point West.
KM: Yes, okay in Holland and they, they’re was these, [pause] adorable, um Lake Michigan cottages. Old
cottages and there was like planks that went out to the beach you can walk along the plank between the
cottages and you’d walk out to the beach. And we allowed, we were allowed, I think we probably rented
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
12
from her, or she allowed, allowed us to stay, our family I'm not sure. But we stayed there a few times.
Um, and we just loved that. So that was probably one, another reason I was drawn to this area.
AM: Yeah, uh-huh, and we don’t know if those cottages are there, right?
KM: I don't think there, I think I looked for them when I came back here actually and I came back, and
that’s that gated area back there.
AM: Oh.
KM: There’s like a gated area now.
AM: Yeah.
KM: You have to go through the gate and it's, I don't know if they might have maintained some. I don't
know about this.
AM: Yeah.
KM: They might have maintained or remodeled them somehow.
AM: Yeah.
KM: But the whole, the whole feeling of the old cottages is not there the way was.
AM: Yeah.
KM: Yeah.
AM: Because we don't, well I shouldn’t speak for you, but spending time in Holland really, you know.
KM: Yes. You have to go back and look, you don't you have to go back and look for that. Which I did
when I first came back here I did go back and look to sort of retrace my steps and um, I couldn't find but
I did find some areas that were familiar, you know a little bit.
AM: Um, let me see if there's any other, is anything that we haven't talked about that you wanted to
talk about? Um, there's a couple actually, a couple of these looking towards future, is kind of interesting.
KM: Looking towards the future?
AM: Well there’s a couple, let me see, there’s one, um. [Pause] Oh, okay this is a good one.
Remembering that this interview will be saved for a long time, when someone listens to this tape fifty
years or plus from now, years from now.
KM: Yeah.
AM: what would you like, what would you most like them to know about your life and community
although this is not really where she lives, but, you know.
KM: Okay. Okay I will, I will um since I'm very much into nature and so is my sister and uh, my friends,
we’re into nature preservation. Um, and so my experiences living on Cape Cod because the Kennedy's
established the national seashore there and, and, saved the beaches which is what makes it so very,
very special for everyone that lives in this country. Is that our conservation, the, the, what is it the
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
13
alliance group that’s here? That's been fighting so hard to protect, to protect our beaches and our
marinas areas, um or actually not to develop new marinas. Uh, this for the Historical Society is
something that really needs to be looked at and, and supported where we are preserving what we have
here. Because otherwise this interview wouldn't, will not be taking place in the future.
AM: Yeah.
KM: You'll not be having people here that want to come here because of the beauty um, unless you, we
as a community work really, really hard to keep what we have so we, so our generations behind us can
have the same kind of experiences that I, that I have experienced.
AM: Good. Very good, I, I agree.
KM: Okay.
AM: Uh, and then this, this is kind of goes along with it but any advice for the young person who may
listen to this tape?
KM: Oh, I don't know. Just um, just a way to open your mind and meet new people and maybe sort of,
um, if you get involved in volunteering or work is to um, to be able to um, grow and um, contribute to
your community. Get involved in projects that would that um, that would make the um, the community
more, more livable. It's a great place to live here so I think that be something that um, young people
could not only work but also just um, enjoy it, but also to contribute in some way.
AM: Yeah, I, I’d say one thing that was interesting, Karen and I were talking about um, yesterday is we
were talking about, we wonder and we don't really know how many young people come from college.
KM: Oh.
AM: Yeah, and work like they used to do.
KM: Is, is housing um, affordable?
AM: Affordable? I mean this is just kind of an open question, it's not even…
KM: Because I Cape Cod the housing is not affordable for, um college students any more.
AM: Yeah, to come and work.
KM: So we don’t know if that’s…
AM: Yeah.
KM: Is that, is that something?
AM: We don't have the kids here or, know you, grandchildren, so we don’t know.
KM: But that’s a good question. Is there being, is there being um, affordable housing provided
somehow.
AM: Yeah, and do they, and do they need, um…
KM: More support?
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
14
AM: Young workers, well, young workers.
KM: Oh!
AM: You know, in the stores and restaurants I don't, we, we don't even really know that question.
KM: Yeah.
[00:30:00]
AM: But, um I mean maybe it's fine.
KM: Yeah. But that would be a different…
AM: Um, maybe it’s totally changed.
KM: May be a different experience of people.
AM: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that was probably, I asked Karen this um, couple days ago and we were
talking about, um, if she remembers if a lot of people were, were living like she did at the Bird Center.
KM: Yeah, I think they were.
AM: Or, you know young people that working, coming in saving money.
KM: Yeah, and that's why was much so fun.
AM: Yeah, because um at that time and because I'm four years, I'm not trying to take over your
interview.
KM: No…
AM: Because I’m four years, you know younger but I was within that same generation basically what
um, young people. I don’t want to say everyone, but so many of us, that's what we did, because we, we
had to contribute to paying for our university um degrees or going to college.
KM: Yeah.
AM: Just put it that way.
KM: So you had to have enough affordable housing that you could still save money.
AM: You could still save money and that's what happened on Cape Cod, that you know, they can no
longer really do that.
KM: Yeah, so the community should, should look at that.
AM: Yeah I, yeah I don’t know if they still do.
KM: Yeah.
AM: Um, is there anything else that you'd like to share that I may not have asked you about? Is there
anything else?
KM: I can't really remember. I'm still um, still enjoying the beaches and…
�Karen Morgan – Interviewed by Alyssa Morgan
June
15
AM: Yeah, and we went swimming!
KM: And we're swimming, I’ve been swimming since um, well in Lake Michigan, well we went this
weekend.
AM: Last week, last weekend.
KM: Last weekend, um, and we love that coffee shop in town, of course. So, we think Saugatuck is just
as great as it ever was fifty years ago.
AM: [Laughs] Very good, very good okay. Thank you very much for your, so much for your time and for
sharing your memories with me. Memories that I've heard about before, by the way since I'm her sister
[Laughs]
KM: And thank you for interviewing me.
AM: Yeah this concludes the interview, I’m going to see if I can turn this off now.
[00:31:52]
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-07_SD-MorganK-20180604
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Morgan, Karen
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-04
Title
A name given to the resource
Karen Morgan (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Karen Morgan moved to the Saugatuck area after she graduated from high school and began waitressing at the new West Point restaurant in the 1960s. In this interview, Karen reminisces about her young adulthood in Saugatuck.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Morgan, Alyssa (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Beaches
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng